Goes to show, where you’re born has a lot to do with what religion you are. It would be interesting to see a world map of the same thing.
Thanks for the link — great map. The red is scary, not because of any misgivings I personally have with Evangelical theology but because, having grown up in Dallas, I know all too well what many Evangelicals think of us and what they would do with us if they had their druthers (see The Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card for a fictional treatment expressing this idea).
“The red is scary, not because of any misgivings I personally have with Evangelical theology but because, having grown up in Dallas, I know all too well what many Evangelicals think of us and what they would do with us if they had their druthers (see The Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card for a fictional treatment expressing this idea).”
Is that anything like what Mormons would do to dissenters if they had their druthers (I’m imagining the entire country being run like the BYU campus). Just wondering.
I’m pretty sure that “dissenters” have nothing to fear from Latter-day Saints.
That is as long as you don’t consider a country run like BYU something to fear. Eh?
John F, what exactly do you think Evangelicals would do with us that is so much more scary than running the country like BYU?
It seems there’s much missionary work to be done before this may truly be called a Christian nation. This also brings another perspective to “Red State” America.
Matt, kill us as cultists.
Or take away our rights of religious freedom.
Of course, the “scary” Evangelical comment was made in jest with reference to Orson Scott Card’s Folk of the Fringe novel in which Evangelicals kill Mormons off after society breaks down and they are no longer prevented from doing so by a non-Evangelical rule of law. To be sure, the hatred I have witnessed, encouraged by Baptist preachers, would indeed lend itself to such atrocities. But my hope is that humanity would reach Evangelicals before the desire to kill such satanic cultists as Latter-day Saints, as Card imagines in his excellent novel.
Now your turn, Matt. What, exactly, would any non-believer have to fear if the country were run by Latter-day Saints? Be careful. Your unrelenting bias is about to show.
Cool. I was just curious if you thought Evangelicals would do us physical harm…but you’ve gone one better: they would kill us (just joking, OSC fiction, or otherwise).
Actually, it was “a country run like BYU” not “run by LDS.” I suspect there’s a difference along the lines of liberal democracy vs fundamentalist religious oligarchy. No need to spell-out the scariness.
Okay, on the subject of where the Mormons are and who will be in charge…how about an encore presentation of that classic answer to who gets into heaven…who gets saved: “yes, ‘the Mormons’ were the correct answer“
That’s really interesting John, thanks for posting it.
Any group, religious or otherwise, in a majority will seek to marginalize the rights of minority groups- this is human nature and why the U.S. Constitution is so important.
We have seen this throughout our (U.S.) history. Right now the ruling group nationwide are the Evangelicals and born agains. As one would expect of human nature, they have sought to legislate their will and morality into the lives of all citizens, which is bad for religion and bad for America. Same thing of LDS in Utah. The world won’t come to an end if we allow the sale of regular beer.
I would just hope that in all of the counties with a religious majority that division is minimal and inclusion is high- but that is an idealists thought and flies in the face of human nature.
John F:
Were there specific Evangelicals who made death threats against you? I grew up in the red region, and the Evangelicals I lived amongst for 15 years were quite kind to me.
Tom:
You can buy real beer legally in Utah. That you didn’t know this is a good sign, I suppose. ;-)
NW, I’m glad Eangelicals were nice to you.
Nate,
You have exposed me as a non-imbiber, however, it is my understanding from my imbibing friends that
Utah beer has considerably less amounts of alcohol than say, Idaho. I know here in Cache Valley many a trip is made to Franklin, ID just across the border to purchase what I referred to as “real beer” as well as lottery tickets.
But perhaps things have changed or I just plain misunderstood.
Tom:
Real beer is available in Logan at the State Liquor Store at 75 West and 4th North. Every state in the Union regulates alcohol in some way, several besides Utah restrict the sale of beer over 3.2%, and there are hundreds of completely dry counties in the United States, none of them in Utah.
Enjoy!
Tom,
You’re right. According to my friends who drink, Utah liquor laws dictate that beer sold in Utah can’t contain more than 3.2% alchohol (unless it’s bought in state-owned liquor stores). Most “normal” beer contains around 4-6% alchohol. So unless you’re close to an official liquor store, you can’t by “real” beer in Utah.
Which, IMHO, is just plain silly.
Or what Nate said (gotta’ hate those simultaneous posts with nearly identical info.)…
Square Peg, the difference is due to whether one is calculating by weight or by volume. Each state sets the standard differently and I believe this results in most of the percent differences.
That is quite an interesting map.
The map is cool but I think it overrepresents the more “organized” churches and underrepresents the more loosely affiliated churches that have huge numbers of adherents. According to the map, the South is predominately Baptist. I think this is inaccurate. Evangelicals and non-denominational bible churches and megachurches have to be bigger than the Baptists in many of these counties.
Does anyone know the story with the New Mexico county that is colored LDS? Is that an Indian reservation?
The LDS county in New Mexico is Catron County, which is sparsely populated and which had Mormon ranchers among its early settlers. Jacob Hamblin died there in 1886.
The 3.2 beer thing is not confined to just Utah, come here to Oklahoma and you will run into the same thing. If you will check your handy guide to religious persecution, we are a red state, or the buckle of the bible belt as I tell people.
Although some of the babtists have been nice to me, most have not, usually depends on their degree of “committedness” and conservative nature. When I was a kid the worst was the summer times when my friends went off to church camp, it was called Falls Creek, anyone who was anyone went to it. Inevitably they came back very standoffish or asking me questions like “They told me at camp that you were a devil-worshipper and you lie to me to get me to covert.” My friend growing up wasn’t allowed to come over to my house because I was LDS. I could go on and on, I would say that most people that are not close to me don’t know I am LDS because of the discrimination I have faced. Now I am not saying everyone was that way, but there were enough incidences that I learned to keep it to myself.
This map, although interesting, appears to be of little value. California is colored mostly blue, not for it’s tendency to vote Democratic, but instead to signify Catholic dominance. That just isn’t the case. California is a rather secular place, and when the natives get religious, they’re just as likely to attend a mega church with drive-through communion.
To follow up on another suggestion, if a world map were similarly coded, France would show up as a Catholic nation–although a history of anti-clericalism dating back to the Revolution has made it one of the most secular countries in the world.
What color signifies: “religion isn’t very important around here.”?
Dave, you have to look at another map for that info. The one John D includes represents only the affiliated populace…so in Cal it looks like of those who affiliate with a church, the majority are Catholic.
Check-out the following for a sense of the secular/unaffiliated picture:
Thanks for the link — great map. The red is scary, not because of any misgivings I personally have with Evangelical theology but because, having grown up in Dallas, I know all too well what many Evangelicals think of us and what they would do with us if they had their druthers (see The Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card for a fictional treatment expressing this idea).
Wow, John F, thanks for the warning! And to think – I lived over 12 years of my life in those “red parts” never knowing how close to death I was! I was just whistling past the graveyard, wasn’t I?
Isn’t it interesting how so often it’s the people complaining about bigotry who reveal a rather nasty bigotry of their own?
Name one example in American history – one – of people slaughtering others because of their religious beliefs. Name one.
Any group, religious or otherwise, in a majority will seek to marginalize the rights of minority groups
Really? Any group? Majorities tend to impose their political preferences – that’s why majorities matter – but not necessarily restrict the rights of minorities. I suppose it mostly depends on the nature of the majority/minority relationship. They are tense in places like Northern Ireland, where a Catholic majority would lead to a huge, unacceptable, irrevocable change for many: secession from Great Britain. But that doesn’t necessarily compare to the situation in the US.
The “right” to buy “real beer” in a grocery store, or to buy alcohol on Sunday, is not a right – it’s a policy preference.
– this is human nature and why the U.S. Constitution is so important.
I thought you just said the nature of humans is to oppress minorities? The Constitution is just a piece of paper. It matters that we value it, but all it really does is express the respect for basic rights that were commonplace when the country was founded.
Plenty of other countries have had Constitutions and had them wind up in the trash rather quickly.
The nature of Americans has shown itself to be one of respect for others. That’s why I found the premise of “Folk of the Fringe” to be absurd. The fact that so many Baptists/Evangelicals are obsessed with Mormons I’ve never understood, but it has hardly resulted in lots of hate crimes.
Right now the ruling group nationwide are the Evangelicals and born agains.
Adherents.com shows the Senate as 24% Catholic, 11% Jewish, 10% Episcopalian, 6% UCC/Congregationalist, 5% Mormon, 2% Orthodox Christian, 1% Unitarian. 59% solidly non-Evangelical, and the other 41% aren’t necessarily Evangelical. Hardly sounds like the Evangelicals are in charge.
As one would expect of human nature, they have sought to legislate their will and morality into the lives of all citizens, which is bad for religion and bad for America.
Legislate their “will?” Isn’t that the purpose of winning elections? Legislate “morality?” Most laws are based on some sort of moral belief. What specifically religious beliefs have they sought to legislate and impose?
Take partial birth abortions. Some would cite that as an example of “imposing morality.” Did you know that secular Europe has more restrictive laws against abortion than the US?
So give some examples of the rights they’ve attempted to restrict.
Same thing of LDS in Utah. The world won’t come to an end if we allow the sale of regular beer.
No, it won’t – but neither will it do so if we limit regular beer to the state liquor stores.
Oh, and you might like to know, john f., that the author of “Folk of the Fringe” is so in fear of his life that he lives in…North Carolina.
In light of Denae’s description of her negative experiences in the Bible Belt, perhaps I could elaborate on my positive ones. It was common knowledge among my friends and acquaintances that I was Mormon. In grade school, I gave a presentation on Brigham Young. In junior high school, I gave a speech on the Mormon pioneers in speech class. In high school, I played on our ward’s Mormon entry in the town’s church basketball league, and I received awards from BYU in school assemblies. Yet I recall no religious persecution whatsoever. I got invited to my friends’ youth revivals (and went once). Other kids in my ward attended bible camp with their friends. Evangelical kids were members of our ward’s scout troop and would join us down at our church to play basketball. When it was the Mormons’ turn to say the opening prayer at church league basketball games, the Evangelicals bowed their heads and said “Amen”, and the games themselves were friendlier and cleaner than the typical BYU intramural game. A minister’s son gave me his hand-me-down basketball shoes. My Mormon sister was elected by her Evangelical classmates to give one of the prayers at high school graduation. (Forgive us; it was the Reagan administration.) Later in life I lived in a different part of the Bible Belt. My Evangelical landlady consistently introduced me to her relatives and friends as her Mormon tenant, yet my apartment was the recipient of no Molotov cocktails. Several sisters in my ward attended Bible study at Charles Stanley’s church and seemed to enjoy it.
I’m sorry for folks who’ve only experienced mean Evangelicals. Committed Evangelicals are among the nicest people I’ve ever had the privilege to associate with.
Isn’t it interesting how so often it’s the people complaining about bigotry who reveal a rather nasty bigotry of their own?
Wow. What a statement.
When I served in the military my bootcamp bunk mate was an Evangelical from Mississippi. He told me stories of what he had learned in church about Mormons and some of it was ignorant and fearful…not too dissimilar from the perception some Mormons have of Evangelicals. But he and I were friends and he did not let the authority of some misguided minister dissuade him from the possibility of respect and friendship for this Mormon.
It is experiences like this…those had outside the reach of political and religious indoctrination…that prove the hope of a common humanity.
Nat Whilk,
Amen brother.
Name one example in American history – one – of people slaughtering others because of their religious beliefs.
I suppose I am not allowed to mention my own ancestors’ persecution at the hands of their neighbors because I am guessing, in your view, my ancestors’ LDS religious beliefs had no relation to the persecution they suffered. I am guessing you are someone who blames the victim in that situation, alleging that any murder, rape, plunder, or expulsion faced by Latter-day Saints in the mid-nineteenth century was not because others despised their religious beliefs but because the Latter-day Saints deserved it for reasons not related to their religious beliefs. They voted as a block, so they deserved it!
So, NW and Matt E. have had nice experiences. Denae and I have had negative experiences. Let’s just say that the negative experiences I have had in my life are what make OSC’s novel plausible enough to make it good fiction. Much fiction convincingly depicts people acting out their suppressed prejudices once a neutral rule of law is lifted or no longer binds them.
John F.:
Your assertion that your Evangelical neighbors in Dallas would have killed you if they had had their druthers would perhaps be more convincing if you’d relate the actual experiences that led you to that conclusion. What exactly happened that revealed their murderous desires?
My son has recently graduated from a preschool run at an Evangelical Lutheran church. We made our religion common knowlege from the beginning. It was a pleasure to send my son there and we never had any issues. He was treated well by everyone, including the minister.
The month my child was student of the month was the same month that the congregation’s book club read some anti book. It was funny to read an article about my son and his interests in their bulletin with that reading recommendation beneath. Not one attempted murder ot threat though :).
NW, I said “plausible enough to make it good fiction.”
But I’m glad Evangelicals were nice to you.
John F.:
You said: “having grown up in Dallas, I know all too well what many Evangelicals think of us and what they would do with us if they had their druthers” and then when asked by Matt Elggren exactly what you thought Evangelicals would do with us, you said that they would “kill us”. Setting aside the parallel subthread about OSC’s science fiction, you asserted that something happened to you in Dallas that gave you knowledge of Evangelicals’ desires to kill Mormons if they could do so with impunity. Do you now retract that assertion?
NW, I am not retracting anything. Any comment I made here was with regard to OSC’s novel. And, I said my experiences (pretty much the same thing as Denae) were what made that novel plausible enough that it made for good fiction. My clarification to Matt was also with reference to my comment that focused on OSC’s novel. In OSC’s novel, the goal of Evangelicals was to kill Latter-day Saints based on fifteen years (at the time the Mormons-are-not-Christians campaign of the Evangelicals was only fifteen years old) of the vitriolic sermons of Baptist preachers. In the novel, OSC points out that after the genocide, Baptist preachers said, “well, we never said to kill the Mormons, just that they were evil, satanic cultists.” I might add that my friends and acquaintances were taught more than that by their Baptist preachers. Apparently, Latter-day Saints also have horns and want to steal away virgins from good Baptist families for sacrifice in the Salt Lake Temple.
John F. writes: “Any comment I made here was with regard to OSC’s novel.”
But you only brought the novel up in your first post as a concluding parenthetical comment. Do you or do you not stand by the truth of the following statement:
Having grown up in Dallas, John F. knows all too well what many Evangelicals think of Mormons and what they would do with them if they had their druthers.
I agree.
Okay, John F., then do you or do you not agree with the following statement:
What many Evangelicals would do with Mormons if they had their druthers is murder them.
According to OSC’s novel, which my own experiences tell me is plausible enough to be good fiction.
The novel imagines that the sermon “Mormons are evil satanic cultists who are threat to you and your baptist families” can plausibly serve as a foundation for killing the Mormons once societal restraints and neutral rules of law are removed.
So, once again, how nice that Evangelicals were nice to you NW.
On that basis, john f., one could just as reasonably be concerned about what Mormons would do if societal restraints and neutral rules of law were removed and the Mormons wer in the majority. The Book of Mormon says there are save two churches only–the church of Christ and the church of the devil. if you are not in one you are in the other. The D&C says the LDS church is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. Other statements from LDS scriptures and G.A.s indicate a belief that the wicked are fit to be killed if they are viewed as impeding the progress of the kingdom of God (1 Nephi 4 provides a basis for this). Jon Krakauer has made similar arguments in Under the Banner of Heaven. I am not saying I would agree with those ideas, but am simply pointing out that this cuts both ways. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.
Ah, Krakauer. Great insight, Equality. Yes, I guess Mormons would kill everyone else if society broke down. There’s a novel for you. Sort of a reverse OSC story. Society breaks down and Mormons kill the Evangelicals. Should be interesting.
“I am not saying I would agree with those ideas,…”
As I said, not saying I agree with Krakauer. Indeed, I think it unlikely that either Mormons or Evangelicals are really so bloodthirsty when it comes to their opposition to other religions. Certain Muslim groups on the other hand…
Of course, there is a new book called Kingdom Coming that I hear is pretty good and lends credence to john f.’s position (probably a better source than FOTF). But I haven’t read it yet.
Well, the truth is, I don’t think that Evangelicals really would kill Latter-day Saints out of their religious hatred. I just found OSC’s book chilling because I could picture it as plausible fiction.
But again, I am sure that Evangelicals wouldn’t actually kill Latter-day Saints if society broke down and there were nothing preventing them from doing so.
John F. wrote: “the sermon “Mormons are evil satanic cultists who are threat to you and your baptist families” can plausibly serve as a foundation for killing the Mormons once societal restraints and neutral rules of law are removed.”
And your contention that Evangelicals are latent Mormon-killers? Couldn’t that plausibly serve as a foundation for Mormons to kill Evangelicals once societal restraints and neutral rules of law are removed?
That’s what Equality thinks.
Let’s be clear here…
OSC’s story is apocalyptic fiction with an infusion of historical Mormon persecution angst. It has more to do with the past than the present or future.
If the world reaches the level described by OSC without Jesus stepping-in we’ll have much more to worry about than who might want to kill who…we might actually worry that Jesus won’t be saving anyone.
Really sad that there’s so many superstitious people running around. Oooga-booga — Jesus is gonna get ya! Jesus is gona get ya!
The novel imagines that the sermon “Mormons are evil satanic cultists who are threat to you and your baptist families” can plausibly serve as a foundation for killing the Mormons
My earliest introduction to literature questioning the BoM was Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults.” My mom’s distant cousin, a Protestant minister, gave her the book. I stumbled upon it when I was 15.
A lot of Martin’s claims were absolute crap. For example, he used a quote in Revelation to “prove” that no scripture should come after the Bible.
However, it should be interesting that “Kingdom,” one of the most important references for Protestants at the time, spent a great deal of its intro on Mormons talking about how good they were as people. Sounds like the kind of teaching to inspire a murderous rampage to me.
Isn’t it interesting how so often it’s the people complaining about bigotry who reveal a rather nasty bigotry of their own? – CraigBa!
Wow. What a statement. – john f
So what’s your problem with the statement, JF?
It seems there’s much missionary work to be done before this may truly be called a Christian nation. This also brings another perspective to “Red State” America. – Matt Elggren
In the most meaningful sense of the word, this is a Christian nation. Whether or not Americans literally believe in Christ, the truth is that most people, even avowed atheists, are still heavily influenced by Christian morality or its derivatives. People like to point out that Thomas Jefferson was a deist, but even he created his own version of the New Testament that weeded out that supernatural aspects and focused on the moral teachings of Christ.
And what do you mean by the “perspective on Red State America?”
Decatur county in Iowa is majority lds? This surprises me. According to wikipedia, it is the poorest county in IA and the population is around 8K. There are a couple of Mormon Trail markers and parks there. Maybe there’s a slew of missionaries and that accounts for the majority lds? Or perhaps some saints stayed behind on the trail and thought “this is the place”!
Decatur County is home to Graceland University in Lamoni, a university sponsored by The Community of Christ (formerly RLDS Church).
Wiki on Lamoni, Iowa:
The town is a significant historic area for the Community of Christ church with the Liberty Hall museum. In 1870 a stewardship association of church members, known as the Order of Enoch, purchased over three thousand acres (12 km²) of land in southern Iowa as a place for gathering. Church headquarters relocated to the emerging community in 1881 and Joseph Smith III made Liberty Hall his home.
Goes to show, where you’re born has a lot to do with what religion you are. It would be interesting to see a world map of the same thing.
Thanks for the link — great map. The red is scary, not because of any misgivings I personally have with Evangelical theology but because, having grown up in Dallas, I know all too well what many Evangelicals think of us and what they would do with us if they had their druthers (see The Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card for a fictional treatment expressing this idea).
“The red is scary, not because of any misgivings I personally have with Evangelical theology but because, having grown up in Dallas, I know all too well what many Evangelicals think of us and what they would do with us if they had their druthers (see The Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card for a fictional treatment expressing this idea).”
Is that anything like what Mormons would do to dissenters if they had their druthers (I’m imagining the entire country being run like the BYU campus). Just wondering.
I’m pretty sure that “dissenters” have nothing to fear from Latter-day Saints.
That is as long as you don’t consider a country run like BYU something to fear. Eh?
John F, what exactly do you think Evangelicals would do with us that is so much more scary than running the country like BYU?
John D,
Here’s another intersting one:
“Religious Adherents as a Percentage of all Residents 2000”
It seems there’s much missionary work to be done before this may truly be called a Christian nation. This also brings another perspective to “Red State” America.
Matt, kill us as cultists.
Or take away our rights of religious freedom.
Of course, the “scary” Evangelical comment was made in jest with reference to Orson Scott Card’s Folk of the Fringe novel in which Evangelicals kill Mormons off after society breaks down and they are no longer prevented from doing so by a non-Evangelical rule of law. To be sure, the hatred I have witnessed, encouraged by Baptist preachers, would indeed lend itself to such atrocities. But my hope is that humanity would reach Evangelicals before the desire to kill such satanic cultists as Latter-day Saints, as Card imagines in his excellent novel.
Now your turn, Matt. What, exactly, would any non-believer have to fear if the country were run by Latter-day Saints? Be careful. Your unrelenting bias is about to show.
Cool. I was just curious if you thought Evangelicals would do us physical harm…but you’ve gone one better: they would kill us (just joking, OSC fiction, or otherwise).
Actually, it was “a country run like BYU” not “run by LDS.” I suspect there’s a difference along the lines of liberal democracy vs fundamentalist religious oligarchy. No need to spell-out the scariness.
Okay, on the subject of where the Mormons are and who will be in charge…how about an encore presentation of that classic answer to who gets into heaven…who gets saved: “yes, ‘the Mormons’ were the correct answer“
That’s really interesting John, thanks for posting it.
Any group, religious or otherwise, in a majority will seek to marginalize the rights of minority groups- this is human nature and why the U.S. Constitution is so important.
We have seen this throughout our (U.S.) history. Right now the ruling group nationwide are the Evangelicals and born agains. As one would expect of human nature, they have sought to legislate their will and morality into the lives of all citizens, which is bad for religion and bad for America. Same thing of LDS in Utah. The world won’t come to an end if we allow the sale of regular beer.
I would just hope that in all of the counties with a religious majority that division is minimal and inclusion is high- but that is an idealists thought and flies in the face of human nature.
John F:
Were there specific Evangelicals who made death threats against you? I grew up in the red region, and the Evangelicals I lived amongst for 15 years were quite kind to me.
Tom:
You can buy real beer legally in Utah. That you didn’t know this is a good sign, I suppose. ;-)
NW, I’m glad Eangelicals were nice to you.
Nate,
You have exposed me as a non-imbiber, however, it is my understanding from my imbibing friends that
Utah beer has considerably less amounts of alcohol than say, Idaho. I know here in Cache Valley many a trip is made to Franklin, ID just across the border to purchase what I referred to as “real beer” as well as lottery tickets.
But perhaps things have changed or I just plain misunderstood.
Tom:
Real beer is available in Logan at the State Liquor Store at 75 West and 4th North. Every state in the Union regulates alcohol in some way, several besides Utah restrict the sale of beer over 3.2%, and there are hundreds of completely dry counties in the United States, none of them in Utah.
Enjoy!
Tom,
You’re right. According to my friends who drink, Utah liquor laws dictate that beer sold in Utah can’t contain more than 3.2% alchohol (unless it’s bought in state-owned liquor stores). Most “normal” beer contains around 4-6% alchohol. So unless you’re close to an official liquor store, you can’t by “real” beer in Utah.
Which, IMHO, is just plain silly.
Or what Nate said (gotta’ hate those simultaneous posts with nearly identical info.)…
Square Peg, the difference is due to whether one is calculating by weight or by volume. Each state sets the standard differently and I believe this results in most of the percent differences.
That is quite an interesting map.
The map is cool but I think it overrepresents the more “organized” churches and underrepresents the more loosely affiliated churches that have huge numbers of adherents. According to the map, the South is predominately Baptist. I think this is inaccurate. Evangelicals and non-denominational bible churches and megachurches have to be bigger than the Baptists in many of these counties.
Does anyone know the story with the New Mexico county that is colored LDS? Is that an Indian reservation?
The LDS county in New Mexico is Catron County, which is sparsely populated and which had Mormon ranchers among its early settlers. Jacob Hamblin died there in 1886.
The 3.2 beer thing is not confined to just Utah, come here to Oklahoma and you will run into the same thing. If you will check your handy guide to religious persecution, we are a red state, or the buckle of the bible belt as I tell people.
Although some of the babtists have been nice to me, most have not, usually depends on their degree of “committedness” and conservative nature. When I was a kid the worst was the summer times when my friends went off to church camp, it was called Falls Creek, anyone who was anyone went to it. Inevitably they came back very standoffish or asking me questions like “They told me at camp that you were a devil-worshipper and you lie to me to get me to covert.” My friend growing up wasn’t allowed to come over to my house because I was LDS. I could go on and on, I would say that most people that are not close to me don’t know I am LDS because of the discrimination I have faced. Now I am not saying everyone was that way, but there were enough incidences that I learned to keep it to myself.
This map, although interesting, appears to be of little value. California is colored mostly blue, not for it’s tendency to vote Democratic, but instead to signify Catholic dominance. That just isn’t the case. California is a rather secular place, and when the natives get religious, they’re just as likely to attend a mega church with drive-through communion.
To follow up on another suggestion, if a world map were similarly coded, France would show up as a Catholic nation–although a history of anti-clericalism dating back to the Revolution has made it one of the most secular countries in the world.
What color signifies: “religion isn’t very important around here.”?
Dave, you have to look at another map for that info. The one John D includes represents only the affiliated populace…so in Cal it looks like of those who affiliate with a church, the majority are Catholic.
Check-out the following for a sense of the secular/unaffiliated picture:
“Religious Adherents as a Percentage of all Residents 2000”
Wow, John F, thanks for the warning! And to think – I lived over 12 years of my life in those “red parts” never knowing how close to death I was! I was just whistling past the graveyard, wasn’t I?
Isn’t it interesting how so often it’s the people complaining about bigotry who reveal a rather nasty bigotry of their own?
Name one example in American history – one – of people slaughtering others because of their religious beliefs. Name one.
Really? Any group? Majorities tend to impose their political preferences – that’s why majorities matter – but not necessarily restrict the rights of minorities. I suppose it mostly depends on the nature of the majority/minority relationship. They are tense in places like Northern Ireland, where a Catholic majority would lead to a huge, unacceptable, irrevocable change for many: secession from Great Britain. But that doesn’t necessarily compare to the situation in the US.
The “right” to buy “real beer” in a grocery store, or to buy alcohol on Sunday, is not a right – it’s a policy preference.
I thought you just said the nature of humans is to oppress minorities? The Constitution is just a piece of paper. It matters that we value it, but all it really does is express the respect for basic rights that were commonplace when the country was founded.
Plenty of other countries have had Constitutions and had them wind up in the trash rather quickly.
The nature of Americans has shown itself to be one of respect for others. That’s why I found the premise of “Folk of the Fringe” to be absurd. The fact that so many Baptists/Evangelicals are obsessed with Mormons I’ve never understood, but it has hardly resulted in lots of hate crimes.
Legislate their “will?” Isn’t that the purpose of winning elections? Legislate “morality?” Most laws are based on some sort of moral belief. What specifically religious beliefs have they sought to legislate and impose?
Take partial birth abortions. Some would cite that as an example of “imposing morality.” Did you know that secular Europe has more restrictive laws against abortion than the US?
So give some examples of the rights they’ve attempted to restrict.
No, it won’t – but neither will it do so if we limit regular beer to the state liquor stores.
Oh, and you might like to know, john f., that the author of “Folk of the Fringe” is so in fear of his life that he lives in…North Carolina.
In light of Denae’s description of her negative experiences in the Bible Belt, perhaps I could elaborate on my positive ones. It was common knowledge among my friends and acquaintances that I was Mormon. In grade school, I gave a presentation on Brigham Young. In junior high school, I gave a speech on the Mormon pioneers in speech class. In high school, I played on our ward’s Mormon entry in the town’s church basketball league, and I received awards from BYU in school assemblies. Yet I recall no religious persecution whatsoever. I got invited to my friends’ youth revivals (and went once). Other kids in my ward attended bible camp with their friends. Evangelical kids were members of our ward’s scout troop and would join us down at our church to play basketball. When it was the Mormons’ turn to say the opening prayer at church league basketball games, the Evangelicals bowed their heads and said “Amen”, and the games themselves were friendlier and cleaner than the typical BYU intramural game. A minister’s son gave me his hand-me-down basketball shoes. My Mormon sister was elected by her Evangelical classmates to give one of the prayers at high school graduation. (Forgive us; it was the Reagan administration.) Later in life I lived in a different part of the Bible Belt. My Evangelical landlady consistently introduced me to her relatives and friends as her Mormon tenant, yet my apartment was the recipient of no Molotov cocktails. Several sisters in my ward attended Bible study at Charles Stanley’s church and seemed to enjoy it.
I’m sorry for folks who’ve only experienced mean Evangelicals. Committed Evangelicals are among the nicest people I’ve ever had the privilege to associate with.
Isn’t it interesting how so often it’s the people complaining about bigotry who reveal a rather nasty bigotry of their own?
Wow. What a statement.
When I served in the military my bootcamp bunk mate was an Evangelical from Mississippi. He told me stories of what he had learned in church about Mormons and some of it was ignorant and fearful…not too dissimilar from the perception some Mormons have of Evangelicals. But he and I were friends and he did not let the authority of some misguided minister dissuade him from the possibility of respect and friendship for this Mormon.
It is experiences like this…those had outside the reach of political and religious indoctrination…that prove the hope of a common humanity.
Nat Whilk,
Amen brother.
Name one example in American history – one – of people slaughtering others because of their religious beliefs.
I suppose I am not allowed to mention my own ancestors’ persecution at the hands of their neighbors because I am guessing, in your view, my ancestors’ LDS religious beliefs had no relation to the persecution they suffered. I am guessing you are someone who blames the victim in that situation, alleging that any murder, rape, plunder, or expulsion faced by Latter-day Saints in the mid-nineteenth century was not because others despised their religious beliefs but because the Latter-day Saints deserved it for reasons not related to their religious beliefs. They voted as a block, so they deserved it!
So, NW and Matt E. have had nice experiences. Denae and I have had negative experiences. Let’s just say that the negative experiences I have had in my life are what make OSC’s novel plausible enough to make it good fiction. Much fiction convincingly depicts people acting out their suppressed prejudices once a neutral rule of law is lifted or no longer binds them.
John F.:
Your assertion that your Evangelical neighbors in Dallas would have killed you if they had had their druthers would perhaps be more convincing if you’d relate the actual experiences that led you to that conclusion. What exactly happened that revealed their murderous desires?
My son has recently graduated from a preschool run at an Evangelical Lutheran church. We made our religion common knowlege from the beginning. It was a pleasure to send my son there and we never had any issues. He was treated well by everyone, including the minister.
The month my child was student of the month was the same month that the congregation’s book club read some anti book. It was funny to read an article about my son and his interests in their bulletin with that reading recommendation beneath. Not one attempted murder ot threat though :).
NW, I said “plausible enough to make it good fiction.”
But I’m glad Evangelicals were nice to you.
John F.:
You said: “having grown up in Dallas, I know all too well what many Evangelicals think of us and what they would do with us if they had their druthers” and then when asked by Matt Elggren exactly what you thought Evangelicals would do with us, you said that they would “kill us”. Setting aside the parallel subthread about OSC’s science fiction, you asserted that something happened to you in Dallas that gave you knowledge of Evangelicals’ desires to kill Mormons if they could do so with impunity. Do you now retract that assertion?
NW, I am not retracting anything. Any comment I made here was with regard to OSC’s novel. And, I said my experiences (pretty much the same thing as Denae) were what made that novel plausible enough that it made for good fiction. My clarification to Matt was also with reference to my comment that focused on OSC’s novel. In OSC’s novel, the goal of Evangelicals was to kill Latter-day Saints based on fifteen years (at the time the Mormons-are-not-Christians campaign of the Evangelicals was only fifteen years old) of the vitriolic sermons of Baptist preachers. In the novel, OSC points out that after the genocide, Baptist preachers said, “well, we never said to kill the Mormons, just that they were evil, satanic cultists.” I might add that my friends and acquaintances were taught more than that by their Baptist preachers. Apparently, Latter-day Saints also have horns and want to steal away virgins from good Baptist families for sacrifice in the Salt Lake Temple.
John F. writes: “Any comment I made here was with regard to OSC’s novel.”
But you only brought the novel up in your first post as a concluding parenthetical comment. Do you or do you not stand by the truth of the following statement:
Having grown up in Dallas, John F. knows all too well what many Evangelicals think of Mormons and what they would do with them if they had their druthers.
I agree.
Okay, John F., then do you or do you not agree with the following statement:
What many Evangelicals would do with Mormons if they had their druthers is murder them.
According to OSC’s novel, which my own experiences tell me is plausible enough to be good fiction.
The novel imagines that the sermon “Mormons are evil satanic cultists who are threat to you and your baptist families” can plausibly serve as a foundation for killing the Mormons once societal restraints and neutral rules of law are removed.
So, once again, how nice that Evangelicals were nice to you NW.
On that basis, john f., one could just as reasonably be concerned about what Mormons would do if societal restraints and neutral rules of law were removed and the Mormons wer in the majority. The Book of Mormon says there are save two churches only–the church of Christ and the church of the devil. if you are not in one you are in the other. The D&C says the LDS church is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. Other statements from LDS scriptures and G.A.s indicate a belief that the wicked are fit to be killed if they are viewed as impeding the progress of the kingdom of God (1 Nephi 4 provides a basis for this). Jon Krakauer has made similar arguments in Under the Banner of Heaven. I am not saying I would agree with those ideas, but am simply pointing out that this cuts both ways. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.
Ah, Krakauer. Great insight, Equality. Yes, I guess Mormons would kill everyone else if society broke down. There’s a novel for you. Sort of a reverse OSC story. Society breaks down and Mormons kill the Evangelicals. Should be interesting.
“I am not saying I would agree with those ideas,…”
As I said, not saying I agree with Krakauer. Indeed, I think it unlikely that either Mormons or Evangelicals are really so bloodthirsty when it comes to their opposition to other religions. Certain Muslim groups on the other hand…
Of course, there is a new book called Kingdom Coming that I hear is pretty good and lends credence to john f.’s position (probably a better source than FOTF). But I haven’t read it yet.
Well, the truth is, I don’t think that Evangelicals really would kill Latter-day Saints out of their religious hatred. I just found OSC’s book chilling because I could picture it as plausible fiction.
But again, I am sure that Evangelicals wouldn’t actually kill Latter-day Saints if society broke down and there were nothing preventing them from doing so.
John F. wrote: “the sermon “Mormons are evil satanic cultists who are threat to you and your baptist families” can plausibly serve as a foundation for killing the Mormons once societal restraints and neutral rules of law are removed.”
And your contention that Evangelicals are latent Mormon-killers? Couldn’t that plausibly serve as a foundation for Mormons to kill Evangelicals once societal restraints and neutral rules of law are removed?
That’s what Equality thinks.
Let’s be clear here…
OSC’s story is apocalyptic fiction with an infusion of historical Mormon persecution angst. It has more to do with the past than the present or future.
If the world reaches the level described by OSC without Jesus stepping-in we’ll have much more to worry about than who might want to kill who…we might actually worry that Jesus won’t be saving anyone.
Really sad that there’s so many superstitious people running around. Oooga-booga — Jesus is gonna get ya! Jesus is gona get ya!
My earliest introduction to literature questioning the BoM was Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults.” My mom’s distant cousin, a Protestant minister, gave her the book. I stumbled upon it when I was 15.
A lot of Martin’s claims were absolute crap. For example, he used a quote in Revelation to “prove” that no scripture should come after the Bible.
However, it should be interesting that “Kingdom,” one of the most important references for Protestants at the time, spent a great deal of its intro on Mormons talking about how good they were as people. Sounds like the kind of teaching to inspire a murderous rampage to me.
So what’s your problem with the statement, JF?
In the most meaningful sense of the word, this is a Christian nation. Whether or not Americans literally believe in Christ, the truth is that most people, even avowed atheists, are still heavily influenced by Christian morality or its derivatives. People like to point out that Thomas Jefferson was a deist, but even he created his own version of the New Testament that weeded out that supernatural aspects and focused on the moral teachings of Christ.
And what do you mean by the “perspective on Red State America?”
Decatur county in Iowa is majority lds? This surprises me. According to wikipedia, it is the poorest county in IA and the population is around 8K. There are a couple of Mormon Trail markers and parks there. Maybe there’s a slew of missionaries and that accounts for the majority lds? Or perhaps some saints stayed behind on the trail and thought “this is the place”!
Decatur County is home to Graceland University in Lamoni, a university sponsored by The Community of Christ (formerly RLDS Church).
Wiki on Lamoni, Iowa:
The town is a significant historic area for the Community of Christ church with the Liberty Hall museum. In 1870 a stewardship association of church members, known as the Order of Enoch, purchased over three thousand acres (12 km²) of land in southern Iowa as a place for gathering. Church headquarters relocated to the emerging community in 1881 and Joseph Smith III made Liberty Hall his home.