On today’s episode of Mormon News, Meggan and John break down another busy week of headlines involving The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Charlie Bird says he is pulling back from sharing his journey to fatherhood after receiving horrific messages about his future family, including messages invoking LDS teachings. We look at the broader Mormon conversation surrounding Charlie and Ryan’s plans to become parents and where criticism of their family has gone.
CHARLIE BIRD RESPONDS TO HORRIFIC BACKLASH
https://www.instagram.com/p/DcqxX85mPeb/
A former LDS bishop in Utah is facing serious criminal charges after an undercover investigation led police to search his phone. According to court documents, Eric Hans Monson has been charged with three counts of exploitation. We look at what investigators say they found and why police specifically raised concerns about his former Church leadership position.
FORMER LDS BISHOP FACES FELONY CHARGES
https://www.abc4.com/news/crimes-agai…
The LDS Church’s massive investment portfolio is nearing another record high. New reporting from the Salt Lake Tribune looks at Ensign Peak’s latest numbers and what the Church’s stock holdings tell us about the continued growth of its financial reserves.
ENSIGN PEAK NEARS ANOTHER RECORD HIGH
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2026/…
The fight over the Heber Valley Utah Temple is heading to the Utah Supreme Court, and a Red Ledges resident is speaking publicly about the dispute and what it has meant for people living near the proposed temple site.
HEBER VALLEY TEMPLE FIGHT HEADS TO UTAH SUPREME COURT https://www.parkrecord.com/2026/08/31…
Meanwhile, interest in the renovated Salt Lake Temple is enormous (or is it?). The Church says more than one million reservations have already been made for the public open house.
ONE MILLION SALT LAKE TEMPLE TOUR RESERVATIONS https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist….
And finally, Salt Lake City International Airport is adding a new Gateside by TSA PreCheck experience. We look at what’s changing and why the airport story is getting attention in Utah.
SLC AIRPORT ADDS GATESIDE BY TSA PRECHECK https://www.sltrib.com/news/2026/09/0…
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Megan
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Episode Introduction
John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Mormon News Podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories Podcast and generally unquotable. I am Dr. John Dehlin, and I am here with Megan. Hey, Megan.
Megan [00:00:14] Hi, John. Happy Friday again.
John Dehlin [00:00:17] Was it a slow week in Mormon news? No, I'm still waiting for a slow week.
Megan [00:00:23] We might be waiting a while. Let's see.
John Dehlin [00:00:25] I'm waiting for the week where Megan slacks me and says, hey, you know what, John? It really was a slow week. There's no point in doing an episode.
Megan [00:00:33] Yep, we'll have a party that day.
John Dehlin [00:00:37] Well, September 4, 2026, and we've got a lot to cover today. We're going to do it in under two hours. That's our new. That's our new objective. And anything you want to start with before we share some breaking news, Megan?
Megan [00:00:51] No, let's get into it.
Mormon Stories Trademark Lawsuit Overview
John Dehlin [00:00:53] All right. Well, the, the thumbnail for today and the title for what we plan to talk about was what Happened to the Family Mormon Influencer Takes Down Post After Ugly Backlash. But before we get into that, we have some breaking news.
John Dehlin [00:01:12] So I'm kind of, I'm kind of upset, Megan. I've been holding my tongue quite a bit publicly about the lawsuit, the Mormon Church's trademark and copyright lawsuit against me and Mormon Stories podcast. But I just, I'm so upset. I'm gonna just share what I think is some really breaking news, and I'll let our viewers and listeners decide for themselves if the church and its apologists are lying.
John Dehlin [00:01:47] So let's get into it. What I'm going to share with everyone right now, and this is before we talk about the stories we plan to talk about today, what I'm going to share with you now is an actual screenshot of one of the LDS Church's filings in its lawsuit against me.
John Dehlin [00:02:09] And what you'll see if you're just listening, what you're not seeing if you're just listening is they do this, what I believe, really deceptive thing is they cherry pick a bunch of blue logos and then they put a blue Mormon Stories logo in the middle of it. And what they're trying to communicate there is this story that is false and I believe defamatory, that we chose blue to deceive people.
John Dehlin [00:02:37] And it's false, I think, on its face, because we were using blue logos long, long before the church's rebrand. And we show that in our response to the church's lawsuit that we had several blue logos before the church ever switched to a blue logo.
John Dehlin [00:02:57] But our graphic designer did choose a blue logo in December of 2022. And so what the church has done in its lawsuit is they've cherry picked a bunch of their blue logos. Even though they use logos of all different types of colors they choose, they cherry pick just a few of their blue logos and then put one of many logos. We've used a blue one to make it look like we intentionally deceived people. And you know, that's deceptive in and of itself, in my opinion. But then they jump the shark and they write in one of their filings, and this is a legal filing before the court.
John Dehlin [00:03:37] They write. In a 2022 Mormon Stories episode, a guest tells Mr. Dehlin he began listening because he believed Mormon Stories was church affiliated. And I'll just say, Megan, that's really just. That statement is face valid, false, but it's also deceptive because it's put right under those blue logos. Because the obvious. What would you say the inference is, Megan, when they list a bunch of blue logos and then they put that statement that in a 2022 Mormon Stories episode, a guest admits being ex being deceived, believing that Mormon Stories was church affiliated, Would you assume, Megan, that what the church is inferring is that that guest saw the Mormon Stories blue logos and thus was deceived that Mormon Stories was church run? Is that what you would assume?
Megan [00:04:37] Absolutely. Yep, I would. As if I put my Mormon brain on, I would be like, oh yeah, look, it does look similar. And yeah, of course he was, he thought it was going to be church approved and church affiliated.
John Dehlin [00:04:49] Yeah. So. So I'll just explain why that's totally deceptive and a lie. And what I want to do is first, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm really grateful to Julia of analyzing Mormonism. She was the first to produce a short about this. Specifically, I will also add that Radio Free Mormon and Rebecca Biblioteca and Bill Real on the Mormons newscast have covered, have started to cover this. But there's more detail that is yet to be covered. But let me just go ahead and play analyzing Mormonism's video of this that includes Jasmine Rapalai, who is, I think, doing some of the church's dirty work here in perpetuating what I believe are deception. So let's play the clip.
▶ Video Clip 1Video Clip 1 [00:05:43] But this lawsuit has never just been
Video Clip 1 [00:05:45] about the word Mormon.
Video Clip 1 [00:05:46] It has always been about brand confusion because many elements of the Mormon Stories branding collectively have caused people to be confused about whether this critical podcast is, is coming from the church.
Video Clip 1 [00:05:58] Let's look again at the Church's opposition to the motion to dismiss. Plaintiffs alleged that defendants adopted a blue Mormon Stories logo with a light raised design prominently used by the church, and also used confusingly similar color font and other design elements in a manner calculated to imitate the Church's logo. The church goes on to point out that plaintiffs use the light raised design marks in various colors, but most prominently in blue. And it says the Mormon Stories followed suit in 2022. So let's revisit that footnote from Tommy. Jasmine says, and John Dillon himself seems to admit on his own show that it was partly his intention to confuse people.
Video Clip 1 [00:06:32] Dang. So I guess the rebrand happened and that's why Tommy was confused. His episode was released in 2022, and he must have seen the 2022 blue logo and this fantastic thumbnail and thought it was from the church. Wait, when did all of this happen? When did Tommy even see that episode? So in the Church's footnote, the timestamp for Tommy's episode begins at 1 hour, 36 minutes and 50 seconds. However, if you play just a few seconds before this clip, Tommy says this.
Video Clip 1 [00:06:57] I can kind of Breeze through 2015. So when I got home to 2018, those years were filled with a lot of faith promoting activities. I was going to church, believed it all, active, faithful, all the things. And I do want to just add one quick anecdote as a part of all that. I just was looking for content to consume, so I remember pretty, pretty quickly after my mission because I am a big fan of podcasts. So I went to the podcast app, Apple Podcast, typed in Mormon, saw Mormon stories, and I was like, perfect. Stories about Mormons.
Video Clip 1 [00:07:29] Hmm.
Video Clip 1 [00:07:30] If Tommy was listening to Mormon stories back in 2015 through 2018, would he have seen the blue logo and a thumbnail that was intentionally created to confuse him? Actually, this is what Tommy would have seen when he clicked on the episode anytime between 2015 and 2018. Dang. That's a little embarrassing. Also, Deseret News is claiming that the original filing said that the confusion began in 2016. But the only thing that I can find is that the Church began using the light rays design in 2016. But we all know that Mormon Stories began using light rays in their own logo back in 2012. So what is this lawsuit about again?
John Dehlin [00:08:02] All right, so, Megan, it's. It's. This is a little bit of a confusing case because there's a difference between. A very important difference between people, for whatever reason, believing that Mormon stories was faithful versus not faithful and I can address the allegations that I've intentionally tried to deceive people, that it was faithful versus not faithful. I think they're all false. But that's not what the church is suing Mormon Stories Podcast me and the Open Stories foundation about. It's about brand confusion, which is people being deceived. That Mormon Stories podcast was run by or affiliated with the LDS Church.
John Dehlin [00:08:49] And they're. They're claiming that because of the rebrand in. In December of 2022, where a graphic designer chose blue for the logo, that people got deceived that Mormon Stories podcast was being run by the church. And ironically, they're using Tommy as a centerpiece for their argumentation.
John Dehlin [00:09:16] But the problem is, is that that interview where I interviewed Tommy happened two months before the rebrand. So the rebrand hadn't even been conceived yet, let alone it hadn't happened. So there's no way Tommy would have ever seen a blue logo ever, because it was two months away from being created.
John Dehlin [00:09:41] The logo that Tommy would have seen would have been gold, but it also wouldn't have happened in 2022, because the episode that Tommy listened to wasn't even on YouTube that he listened to it. He listened to it on the Apple podcast app, where the logo would have been gold, not blue.
John Dehlin [00:10:05] So it's totally deceptive that the church is using this as an example and mischaracterizing what Tommy actually said. But don't take my word for it. Tommy actually commented on Julia's video, and Tommy writes. So weird to be a part of all this, but can confirm that I'm talking about the summer of 2015.
John Dehlin [00:10:33] I saw that Tanish logo and never once thought the show was from the church itself. And again, this comes from, from, and in response to Julia's wonderful short video that also features Jasmine Rapalai doing what I believe is the church's dirty work for them. Now, Megan, what are your thoughts?
Megan [00:11:01] It seems so sloppy. Like, is. I just have questions. Is this intentional? You know, or did they just not do their homework? Like, I am so meticulous about when I put things together and I check and I double check and I triple check, and I'm just one person, and I still make mistakes sometimes, but they have an army of lawyers. So what happened here? Like, who. Who did not look at the dates? Because it seems pretty obvious to me. And Tommy admits that it was not brand confusion. He was not confused that the church might have produced this podcast because of the color blue.
John Dehlin [00:11:45] And putting Tommy's reference under the blue logos is and in this lawsuit, it's not only incredibly deceptive, and they not only literally falsely claim that Tommy claimed he was confused about brand and the origin of Mormon stories. They. They invent that out of whole cloth. If you go back and listen to what Tommy said on Mormon Stories in October of 2022, it's simply that he thought Mormon Stories was faithful, you know, and he thought that Samantha's story was going to end with her staying in the church. And it didn't end that way. He. He doesn't even claim that we did anything deceptive, right?
Megan [00:12:26] No, yeah, he. He thought it was maybe going to be like the. The Comeback podcast, where it's like, people. People had a problem and then they resolved it.
John Dehlin [00:12:34] Yeah, but what's just so bizarre is that they're filing this in a federal lawsuit. So they're not just stating this carelessly on a social media post or worse, getting apologists to do their dirty work and deceive people for them. They're filing these false allegations in a federal lawsuit that. That Judge Robert Shelby is literally going to read.
Megan [00:13:02] Like, is this indicative of their level of, like, privilege, where they feel like they're untouchable? It's like, we just. Yeah, we just. We just put all of this out there, and people just believe us and they trust us, and then we just win.
John Dehlin [00:13:17] Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's ironic. I'll just end by saying this, that I started Mormon stories podcast in 2005, and a primary motive was when I learned in 2001 that the church had been knowingly deceiving me and the membership for over 200 years. That was one of the main reasons I started Mormon Stories Podcast to say, we've got to start talking openly about the church's history, the church's truth claims, the way the church harms people. Because the Church is hiding its history and its problematic truth claims, and the way it hurts people, it's hiding it from the membership. And so I started Mormon Stories to try and honestly and openly talk about it.
John Dehlin [00:14:01] And so it's just ironic that in 2026, the church continues to deceive and lie and manipulate the world and its membership, you know, and then. And then claim that we're the ones who are deceivers, as they're literally lying and deceiving people and using their apologists to carry their deceptive water for them.
Megan [00:14:26] This isn't the Saints book. This is a federal lawsuit. Like, they don't get to just put in a little bit of this and a little bit of that and call it good and know that the members are going to read it and be like, yay.
John Dehlin [00:14:39] Yeah. And nobody holds Jasmine accountable. Nobody holds Jackson Paul and Latter Daily Saints accountable. Nobody holds these people accountable. And the members, I mean, I guess the members don't care about what's true. I mean, maybe some do. But if Latter Day Saints care about the truth, they will hold Jasmine and Jackson Paul and all of the church's apologists and the church's law firms and the church itself accountable if they at all care about truth. And if they don't care about truth, if they don't care about people being smeared and lied about, then they won't do anything. So we'll see if Jasmine cares about the truth and if the church's PR department cares about the truth. And if the church cares about the truth, they will apologize. They will acknowledge these lies and these deceptions, and they'll apologize for them.
Megan [00:15:31] Yep. Let's hope that happens.
John Dehlin [00:15:34] Yeah. So anyway, we'll be filing our response in the motion to dismiss in a few weeks, and, you know, we'll be calling this out, and we'll see if the courts care about truth or if the courts don't care about truth.
Megan [00:15:56] Let's hope they care about truth.
John Dehlin [00:15:57] Yeah. All right. Sorry to hijack the beginning of our episode, but I'm just a little bit fired up.
Megan [00:16:02] Yeah, no, I would be as well. I mean, I'm fired up on your behalf. A lot of times when I read this stuff, I'm like, oh, my word. And as Mormons, we were taught to be missionaries, to shout the truth from the rooftops. And so sometimes it's really hard to hold back.
John Dehlin [00:16:18] It is. All right. And Julia wants to remind me that this isn't just our lawsuit. It's everybody's lawsuit. That's true. Everybody cares about the usage of the word Mormon, the ability to criticize the church. Not even just to criticize the church, to talk openly about the church and its history and its truth claims and the way it harms people. Just free speech. People who care about free speech. They should care about this lawsuit because it's about much more than just Mormon stories. Podcast. All right, Megan, what do you. What have you got for us today?
Charlie Bird and Husband Announce Surrogacy Plans
Megan [00:16:49] So much, John. First, we're going to talk about some really cheerful, wonderful posts that have been deleted because of the way that Mormons responded to them. Then again, we haven't talked about something like this for a few weeks. We're going to talk about a former bishop who was arrested. We're going to go on to a Salt Lake Tribune article that talks about is the church losing money. Then we will discuss the Heber Temple. That's been in the news for a couple of years, but now the residents there are starting to speak out. And then, of course, the Salt Lake Temple Open House. One million tickets sold.
John Dehlin [00:17:25] All right. Yeah, well, I, I, this is all new to me, I always say. Mormon news podcast is. Megan explains the week's news to John Dehlin. So let's get into it. There's some familiar faces.
Megan [00:17:40] Yeah. So Charlie Bird is a former BYU Cosmo the Cougar, author, therapist, and prominent gay Latter Day Saint. His husband, Ryan Clifford, is also a content creator. And together they've become well known for sharing their marriage and their experiences, navigating life as a gay couple within the LDS community. They married in August of 2023. Just a little background for people who aren't aware of who they are.
John Dehlin [00:18:02] I didn't realize Charlie Bird was a therapist. That's new to me.
Megan [00:18:05] I didn't either. I actually had to look it up to make sure that that was true.
John Dehlin [00:18:10] Like, yeah, when did he get his, when did he get a degree in therapy and when did he get licensed?
Megan [00:18:16] I didn't look into all of that. I just found his profile on the therapy site where he works, and it was, it was named Evergreen, which I thought was strange. And then I looked up, and it's not super strange. Right. It's not connected to the Evergreen of the past. That was the conversion therapy Evergreen. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:18:38] Okay. Should we play the clip?
Guest [00:18:39] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:18:40] All right, let's play the clip.
Guest 2 [00:18:42] Okay. Tell everyone what we just did. We're pregnant. We just had an appointment with the fertility clinic. It's actually a local clinic that is super, like, highly rated. So we got in with a doctor, and we just had an hour talking to her about, like, the process, what it's going to look like. So the next steps are going to call us and give us access to the egg donor database, talk about, like, financial things. We have to get scheduled for some blood work. Just make sure that everything. He's good to go with us. You want to have a baby? Yep, I do. I'm so crazy.
John Dehlin [00:19:13] I mean, that looks like something we're celebrating. I'm so happy for them.
Guest [00:19:17] Right?
Megan [00:19:17] Yeah. That post was made in the spring of this year, and we did talk about it on a previous newscast, but this post spurred the rest of what we're going to talk about. So I wanted people to see it. I wanted people to see what Charlie and Ryan were saying and how happy they were and how excited.
John Dehlin [00:19:33] Yeah. Okay, so what. What. Where's the sad part of the story?
Megan [00:19:38] So this is just a screen grab of the thumbnail from the YouTube video from latter Daily Saints. And this particular episode was hosted by Jackson Paul and Hayden Paul. So. And if you go to the next, there will be a clip of what they said in reaction to.
John Dehlin [00:19:53] Check out. Check out my interview with Jackson and Hayden Paul and Mormon Stories podcast. I think they embarrassed themselves. I tried to tell them, just come on Mormon Stories and tell your story, but they wanted to debate me. So me and Gerardo went toe to toe with Jackson and Hayden, and pretty much everyone I've talked to said they embarrassed themselves. But not only that, they've gone on to lie, in my opinion, and smear and misrepresent me and Mormon Stories podcast. They try and call me antichrist. I'm not against Christianity. I'm not against Jesus. I just don't believe in a particular interpretation of the atonement. I think there's certain ways to interpret the atonement that are insidious. And I've said that. But. But they, you know, these. These dudes lie. And so that. That's where it starts. But let's see where. Where else it goes. Should I play the next clip?
Megan [00:20:48] Yep.
Guest 2 [00:20:49] In the family of proclamation to the world, it says, the family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to his eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. That was like. It hit so much harder entitled. It's like they're. It's a human right. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:21:20] All right, what are your thoughts on that, Megan?
Megan [00:21:23] This is just the kind of response that Charlie and Ryan are getting to an announcement that they were super excited about, where these two guys are coming out publicly and saying it. You don't have a right to do this because your child has a right to a mother. And I just find it disturbing that their view is so binary that they can't allow for someone else to have joy and for someone else to be good parents.
John Dehlin [00:21:55] I mean, I far be it for me to defend the Paul brothers, but they're just quoting the family proclamation and the Mormon Church's stance. That's what I found is these apologists just parrot whatever the church says or believes. They are incapable of disagreeing with the church or having their own opinions in many instances. So I don't know how much to blame them. Versus just doing the church's bidding. What do you think, Megan?
Megan [00:22:22] Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I do. They know where the family proclamation came from, what its backstory is. I do wonder that. And I wonder if it would even make a difference because the family proclamation came about because gay marriage was being put on the ballot in Hawaii and, or presented to the courts in Hawaii. And the church wanted to be able to file, I believe it was an amicus brief so that they could support striking down gay marriage, but they had to have a doctrinal position. And so they wrote and concocted the family of proclamation to the world in response to gay marriage possibly being legalized in Hawaii. So.
Guest 2 [00:23:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:23:06] So the proclamation of the family started as a legal brief.
Megan [00:23:10] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:23:12] Isn't that wild?
Megan [00:23:13] Right. And now it's this. God said. God said and entitled. And they're. They're so sure of themselves that they're happy to parade it out.
John Dehlin [00:23:26] And weirdly, we now know that women are leaving the church at a higher rate than men, or at least young women are leaving the church at a higher rate than men. And so the more the church promotes the proclamation, I believe the more they're just going to accelerate. They're. They're going to turn the Mormon Church into an incel church because they're driving out all their women with what many believe is a misogynistic declaration.
Megan [00:23:54] Yeah, yeah. With these really hard line distinctions between what men are allowed to do and what women are allowed to do. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Maybe we do want to have children, but we don't want it to be our only purpose for existing.
John Dehlin [00:24:10] Yeah. The man presides and provides and protects and the women nurture the children and stay home and be presided over. Like, how is that going to fly in 2026 and beyond?
Megan [00:24:23] Well, obviously it's not.
John Dehlin [00:24:24] Yeah, it's not. So what is Greg Matson, who we've also had on Mormon stories, how does he play into this?
Megan [00:24:30] So he also made. This is just a precursor to his clip.
Guest 2 [00:24:33] He.
Megan [00:24:34] He's going to say, this is against everything we believe in. See, if you go to the next one, it's a.
John Dehlin [00:24:37] He's right. He's right.
Guest 2 [00:24:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:24:40] All right, let's play the clip.
Guest 2 [00:24:42] Charlie Bird, right, who was held up as kind of this icon, this gay icon in the church, faithful icon that was speaking in faith firesides. He was invited to Stakes Stake firesides for the youth especially. And here's the thing, is that then you get someone like that, the youth, for example, follow him on social media and they go to his social media accounts. And they see his interpretation that he gives of the family proclamation, and they see his life with his boyfriend, now his husband.
Guest 2 [00:25:27] Right. And, and they see him, okay, he's active, he goes to church, he believes in the church, but he's married to a man. And now they want a child, and so they're going to adopt a child. And you see all of these hearts on social media supporting all of this. And you say to yourself, well, wait a minute, this is against everything we believe in. This is against the church. But, oh, it's inclusive.
Guest 2 [00:25:54] It's inclusive. It doesn't matter that it's not part of the order of God, you know, the, the order of God and the family of God. It's. It's inclusive and that's what really matters. And if we have enough empathy, then the Christ like thing would be to support things like this, to support inclusiveness regardless of truth, regardless of order. And, and that's a little bit concerning to me.
John Dehlin [00:26:26] All right, Megan, what's wrong with that video?
Megan [00:26:30] It's, it's hard for me to see these because. Makes me see the, the church in this way where they're trying to kind of play both sides, where they're allowing Charlie and Ryan because they know what they're doing, right?
Megan [00:26:44] The top leadership is not unaware that Charlie and Ryan still participate in their ward. So they're allowing that because they know it's very public. And then they also allow Jackson and Hayden and Greg to go on and say, this goes against everything that we believe in. And the church just kind of gets to pull back and, and allow all of this messiness to happen.
Megan [00:27:09] I just, it just feels so disingenuous to me. It feels like the same thing, like they're lying, like they're obfuscating a little bit. And it gives Greg, he thinks he has this power because God is on his side to say things that, like, I think Greg in his heart is a good person. But then he can get in his car and make this video that's so hateful because he thinks that the church and God endorse it. It's actually kind of sad because the God that Greg worships isn't a God that I would want to, to give my allegiance to, because a God who can't celebrate Charlie and Ryan in this moment doesn't seem like a really loving God to me.
John Dehlin [00:27:52] Julia writes, he's in his car, like he was desperate to just make this hateful video. And I, I know Greg. I don't see him as a hateful guy. I do think he is a victim of, of the LDS Church. And like, like you've acknowledged and I think, like we've covered for years on Mormon Stories podcast, the church is the author of this confusion because as I understand it, Charlie and his husband Ryan, as far as I know, they're still actively attending a ward. As I under, as I understand it, they still have responsibilities in their ward. They are legally same sex married. And you know, they, they're clearly public about their faith, but also, you know what they're doing and the church doesn't discipline them.
John Dehlin [00:28:41] Now, to be clear, I don't want the church to discipline them. I want the church to leave them alone. But of course Greg is confused. And you know, even people like Jacob Hansen and Word Radio and the Paul brothers, of course they're confused because the church is in effect speaking out of both sides of its mouth here by on the one hand, claiming that this is evil, that, that, you know, same sex marriage is wrong and evil that so many people have been excommunicated for same sex marriage, you know, or the like. And yet the church is no longer disciplining these public figures and letting them go.
John Dehlin [00:29:24] So I don't know. I don't, I'm, I'm sad that this is how the Paul brothers and Greg and others want to spend their time and their energy, but I put all the responsibility and the blame on the church for confusing people.
Megan [00:29:37] Well, and then the church would say, but we say to love everyone. Yeah, but do they mean that? Do they mean that? Because if they did, would they still be getting up in that same conference and reiterating the proclamation on the family? Somehow they think those two things can coexist. And I just don't think that they can.
John Dehlin [00:29:58] Yeah. So what's this next clip about?
Megan [00:30:02] So this is Ashley Ruth. She wrote an article in the Cougar Chronicle and she was just another person that responded to their video. I'll read what she wrote. I have thought carefully about how I want to approach this. Oh, wait, this isn't the one from the Cougar Chronicle. Sorry, this. She wrote a sub stack.
Megan [00:30:23] She said, I have thought carefully about how I want to approach this claim because I know it's going to cut to the center. Charlie and Ryan are not living within a covenant marriage sealed by God's priesthood. They have a legal contract authorized by the state of Utah. This is the difference between time and all eternity until death do us part. Furthermore, any child brought into their home through surrogacy will not be born into the covenant and cannot be sealed to both men in the temple. As Latter Day Saints, we cannot bypass the importance of God's ordinances by appealing to all kinds of ways to build a family. Not if we truly believe in exaltation.
John Dehlin [00:30:57] What are your thoughts on that?
Megan [00:30:59] It's just, I do wish people would leave them alone. If you can't be happy for them, like, go. Go find your own happiness and be there.
John Dehlin [00:31:11] Yeah, there's. There's millions of people that, who aren't faithful Latter Day Saints or who are part. Part active or part believing, who make all sorts of decisions that aren't fully aligned with the church's doctrine and theology at present day. But why do we have to spend our time and energy as faithful Latter Day Saints demeaning their decisions? Like, okay, even if you're orthodox Mormon with what you believe is the ideal, why are you denigrating people that make different decisions even if they're active Latter Day Saints? There are active Latter Day Saints that drink coffee or take mushrooms or use cannabis or have tattoos or earrings or don't go to church or don't believe. Why would you. Why would, as a Christian and as a faithful Latter Day Saint, would you spend your time judging and calling people out, especially when it's sacred decisions around marriage and child rearing and childbearing? Why?
Megan [00:32:22] Because does she think that Charlie's going to read that and be like, oh, I think we made the wrong choice? This one substack article said. I mean, that's, that's not even realistic. The. The fact that she's writing about that publicly says a lot about her feelings and very little about whether Charlie is going to see that and, and make a different choice. It's like she has to wear her badge of, I, I'm defending God's honor against what Charlie and Ryan are doing.
John Dehlin [00:32:57] And weirdly, this advice we're giving Latter Day Saints would help Latter Day Saints, not accelerate the mass hemorrhaging that they're currently experiencing. Like, if the church were to take Megan's advice, Julia's advice, and John Dehlin's advice, they would literally slow their hemorrhaging. So we're actually trying to help the church, in effect, not lose as many members by giving this advice. Because there's no way this is helping the church.
Megan [00:33:33] No, no, because what they're doing is they're stopping people from having joy in their life. Like, if you can see what Ryan and Charlie are doing and be just sublimely happy about that, then you don't have to Carry around all that anger and doubt that. That they're now associating with it. The church says that it wants people to have happiness and joy, and yet they're taking the situation that should just be that and making it something else.
John Dehlin [00:34:06] And Megan, I don't know. It's been a while since I've read the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but. Did Jesus say something about judging? I. I'm trying to remember. I think I. I think there's something that comes to mind. Can you remind us?
Megan [00:34:18] Right. Judge not lest you be judged.
John Dehlin [00:34:21] Oh, that's what Jesus said to his followers.
Megan [00:34:26] Right. Can we go to Uchtdorf who said, don't judge me because I sin differently than you?
John Dehlin [00:34:31] Yeah.
Megan [00:34:31] Like which I don't think what they're doing is a sin. Don't know. But. But if they're listening to their own prophets, I. I just don't know.
John Dehlin [00:34:41] Yeah, I don't know why the church doesn't shut this down. Because it's. They're not harming Charlie. I mean, they are harming Charlie and Ryan, but they're also harming themselves. They're not doing themselves any favor. All right, what's. What's the next?
Megan [00:34:56] This. This one's from the Cougar Chronicle, and I thought it was really interesting from this gal's Instagram. She's definitely got the new garments on,
John Dehlin [00:35:03] I suppose, because you see her shoulders and.
Megan [00:35:05] Yep. Yeah, so she said. I recognize the deep natural yearning Charlie Bird feels to be a parent. As a single woman in her mid-20s, I can relate. But adults need to do hard things so children don't have to. Adults must sacrifice their own priorities to protect children's rights and well being. Charlie Bird does not have a right to be a father on his own terms. He does not have a right to deprive his future child of its mother. And Latter Day Saints should not celebrate his attempts to do so.
John Dehlin [00:35:32] So Charlie Bird doesn't have the right to have a child by surrogacy. Really?
Megan [00:35:39] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she. She was hardlined. I, like, I've. I need to read through this like four or five times to really sift out all of the. Her view is just so black and white.
John Dehlin [00:35:54] Right. Like, what are. Where do rights come into play here? Like spiritual rights, civil rights? Like, what rights is she even talking about?
Megan [00:36:04] She's talking about the family proclamation.
Guest 2 [00:36:07] Rights.
Megan [00:36:09] Definitely not human rights.
John Dehlin [00:36:11] That's not rights. That's just beliefs. That's not rights.
Megan [00:36:15] Right. But like, my Mormon brain thought they were rights. Right. Because God superseded Government and earthly, you know, rules.
John Dehlin [00:36:28] These people need to go to civics class. They need to actually attend political science courses or legal courses. They just, they're. They need more education.
Megan [00:36:40] Well, and maybe just leave Provo.
John Dehlin [00:36:42] Sometimes there's a difference between rights and beliefs. All right, what's the next clip?
Megan [00:36:48] So this is Sky Sorensen, who is a gay Latter Day Saint. He's in a mixed orientation. Mixed orientation marriage. So the next clip is from him.
John Dehlin [00:36:58] Right. I'm scared to see it. When Latter Day Saints celebrate a same sex couple intentionally creating a family in which a child, by design, will not have both a mother and a father, we're communicating something about what we believe marriage and family are for, especially to
Guest 2 [00:37:18] young Latter Day Saints experiencing same sex attraction.
John Dehlin [00:37:22] We're telling them whether the doctrine applies to them too. And I worry that we're teaching young Latter Day Saints that compassion requires celebration. Huh. All right, Megan.
Megan [00:37:36] It's hard for me with people who, you know, however they identify themselves, gay, he says, same sex attraction, who have decided to stay in the church and then think that that needs to be everybody's path. I can, I can see that sky is doing what he has chosen to do.
Megan [00:37:59] And I wish he would leave space for people who are making choices in the other direction, who couldn't get into an orient mixed orientation marriage or who just didn't want to, who knew that that wouldn't be good for them or their mental health, and who have decided to marry someone that they are not just in love with, but also attracted to. I mean, I know that attraction comes on a scale, and there are people who a mixed orientation marriage is not going to work for. And I wish that sky and others like him, I've seen others would allow for that because they'll say things like, this is the, you know, I prayed and I read my scriptures and this was right for me.
Megan [00:38:38] Well, allow for someone else to pray and read their scriptures and do what is right for them and. And for theirs to be just as valid of a revelation, of a personal revelation.
John Dehlin [00:38:52] Yeah. In my PhD dissertation, I. I surveyed 1,612 current and former LGBT Latter Day Saints. And one of the findings we had which was most stark was that 70% of the mixed orientation marriages of the people who had entered into mixed orientation marriages in our study had already experienced divorce. So that's a 70%. 70% failure rate on mixed orientation marriages. But it's worse than that.
John Dehlin [00:39:25] The LGBT members of mixed orientation marriages had extremely high levels of depression, of internalized homophobia. They had quality of life ratings comparable to people with lupus. And that's not even surveying the. The straight spouses that are married to people who don't find them attractive.
John Dehlin [00:39:49] So it's, it is just literally irresponsible, I believe, for. Of queer Mormons in mixed orientation marriages to hold themselves out as. As in any way role models for what people should. You know, what people might consider, in my opinion, mixed orientation Mormon. Mixed orientation marriages should have a big red warning label saying mixed orientation marriages lead to depression and divorce and quality of life ratings lower than people with lupus. But that's not what sky tells people, you know.
Guest [00:40:27] Right.
John Dehlin [00:40:28] So anyway, but, but, but aside from that, what about the 11th article of faith? Like, I. I was Mormon enough to remember what it says, and it says, we believe in. We believe in what? Following the dictates of our own conscience. Yeah, We. We believe and being subject to the
Megan [00:40:48] dictates of our own conscience and allow
John Dehlin [00:40:50] all men the same privilege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may. Why are we denigrating as faithful Latter Day Saints, people's decisions?
Megan [00:40:59] Yeah, well, because there's this thing in the church where you can receive personal revelation, but you can only receive personal revelation for something the brethren have already said. That. That corroborates something the brethren have already said.
John Dehlin [00:41:11] Yeah. All right. This is really riling me up today, Megan, what did Charlie have to say about this reaction?
Online Backlash and Community Response
Megan [00:41:19] Yeah, so then after. I mean, this has been going on because Charlie and Ryan posted that video in, I think it was April or May I put Spring because I couldn't remember the exact date. But. So this has been going on for a while. These videos have been coming out on faithful social media for months.
Megan [00:41:33] And finally Charlie came out on Instagram and said, I'm genuinely sad that something I've been so excited to share has reached this point. And I'm sorry to those of you who have been following along and wanted to continue being part of it here, please don't go searching for or engaging with the people who sent these messages. And he's going to show those in a second. I've reported the accounts that needed to be reported, and several already appear to have been removed. I'm also planning to take this post down in about 48 hours. I wanted to explain why I'm taking this change, but I don't want these messages or this kind of rhetoric to live any longer or travel any farther than necessary.
Megan [00:42:10] To any LGBTQ people who see these screenshots, please don't let them scare you or make you Feel like this is representative of how people will treat you. I'm in a very unusual position, and sometimes that means I see the absolute worst of what sad people have to say. The overwhelming majority of people I encounter in my actual life are kind, loving, and good. Please don't let a handful of cruel voices feel bigger than they are. And then he attributes the artwork.
John Dehlin [00:42:41] What a beautiful response.
Megan [00:42:44] Yeah, I know. I was like, having some feelings while I was reading that. And that's why this is so hard. Because when I saw his video the first time, I was just genuinely excited. And then to see all of this awful stuff happen and for this thing that people celebrate, you know, they have these big parties and tell people that they're pregnant. For that to be marred by this for them, like, it's just devastating.
John Dehlin [00:43:17] Yeah, it is. It's sad. I'm curious. Well, let's go ahead and finish then. I have a question for you, Megan. Okay, this next. These next comments.
Megan [00:43:27] So we don't have to focus on this too much. These are screenshots of some of the comments that he got saying you're disgusting
John Dehlin [00:43:35] in response to that.
Megan [00:43:37] No, these were comments that he's been getting along the way, the reason that he wrote the post. These are some of the comments and it even shows. They were comments that were made on Jackson and Hayden's video. They were comments that were made on Sky's video. And that's why I showed those.
John Dehlin [00:43:53] These are faithful, likely faithful Mormons making comments.
Megan [00:43:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:43:58] And will you read some of them for those who are listening who can't read it?
Megan [00:44:03] I will try. One of them says, you and your disgusting eugenic practices shouldn't be allowed to step foot into a church building. I hope you either repent and divorce or both blank before bringing a motherless child into the world.
John Dehlin [00:44:19] Horrific. And these are believing Latter Day Saints? Apparently, yeah.
Megan [00:44:25] I mean, you think so? It. Yeah. There's one that says, let's send all of you homos to an island. No woman to force carry your designer babies. One generation in the world would be fixed.
John Dehlin [00:44:37] Another one says, disgusting, depraved. And then F words like you don't deserve to live. Oh my. These are. These are Christians. These are presumably Latter Day Saints. Like, does the church not see the bigotry that is emerging from these Mormon apologists and social media influencers that the church's wealthy donors are supporting through these arms length nonprofits that are springing up?
Megan [00:45:14] Right. It's. It's really bad. Like one of them says, I hope your surrogate miscarries
John Dehlin [00:45:23] I mean, there are just no words. There are literally words.
Megan [00:45:28] No, it's. It's horrific. And. And they've been subject to this for months. This has been going on since April. I mean, it's been going on for their whole lives, certainly, but it has intensified.
Charlie Bird Steps Back from Sharing Family Journey
John Dehlin [00:45:40] All right, so what's. What's. Yeah, what's this slide about?
Megan [00:45:44] So this is the rest of Charlie's post. He says, over the past few weeks, I've received messages that have gone far beyond the criticism or negativity I'm used to receiving online. Some of them have been genuinely frightening and have made me concerned for my safety.
John Dehlin [00:46:00] Yeah, that's horrific.
Megan [00:46:03] Yeah, you can go ahead and keep. You can keep going because we can heed.
John Dehlin [00:46:07] Yeah, keep going.
Megan [00:46:09] I love sharing authentically, and I've enjoyed bringing you along as we navigate the process of starting our family. But sharing this particular part of my life has attracted more negative attention than I have the bandwidth to carry. People I don't know have begun making content specifically targeting me and our family building process and using what I share as material for their conversations. As that content has circulated, the attention coming my way has become increasingly extreme. Because of that, Instagram no longer feels like a safe place for me to share this part of my life. I've archived previous posts about the process, and for the foreseeable future, I will not be sharing any more updates here.
Megan [00:46:48] I plan to continue sharing some aspects of our journey on my Substack blog, but I'll likely be putting more of those posts behind a paywall. I don't love having to put barriers around something I wanted to share openly, but right now, it feels like the best way to limit the exposure that has made this feel unsafe. The people behaving this way likely represent a very small number. The overwhelming majority of you have been kind, curious, supportive, and genuinely excited for us. And I don't want the actions of a few to overshadow that.
Megan [00:47:16] But I feel a responsibility to protect myself, my husband, and the family we are working so hard to build. So this is where I've landed.
John Dehlin [00:47:24] Oh, he's no longer going to be sharing his journey on Instagram and is going to now do it on substack behind a paywall. Is this. Are these Charlie's words as well?
Megan [00:47:36] No, this was something that I saw when I was at Sunstone and I couldn't remember where, but I sent myself a note of it and I thought it applied to this situation perfectly. When hateful rhetoric becomes normalized, someone eventually takes it literally.
John Dehlin [00:47:54] Yeah, well, Let me ask you this, Megan. This is a really tough question because some would say it's hypocritical for you or for us to even discuss this story, because clearly, if you care about Charlie, Charlie saying, stop talking about me, stop talking about this story. This is harming me and my family. So how, Megan, do you think through that, and knowing that you genuinely care about LGBTQ people and care about Charlie and Ryan, how do you make the decision to even cover a story like this versus do what it appears like Charlie's asking everyone to do and not talk about him?
Megan [00:48:38] Yeah, I. It's hard because I always try to have this balance between bringing something to people's attention and putting it in as part of, like, a historical record. Like, this is where we're at right now in the church. This, you know, the. The family proclamation came out in the 90s and in 2026. This is what it's doing to real people's lives and balancing that with the love and concern and privacy that Charlie and Ryan deserve.
Megan [00:49:13] At the same time. They have been very public people for a very long time. So it's trying to have this balance. And that's what I was talking to Julia about this before we started, because even when I made the thumbnail, I was like, I want people to understand the level of vitriol that has been put towards them, but I don't want it to be the last thing that they remember.
Megan [00:49:37] Because Charlie and Ryan's story is about love. And bringing a child into that is about them sharing that love with a child that they then get to nurture and grow with. And I think that's so beautiful. So we in. In our human lives have to understand that there is really bad things that happen. We can't just be oblivious to that. We have to be aware of it so that we can stand up for the people who are at the receiving end of that. And the focus should always be love. So it's just trying to carry that in a balance.
John Dehlin [00:50:17] And what about just following what Charlie seems to be suggesting, Megan, and just not. Not talking about this stuff when it. It seems like he's asking us not to?
Megan [00:50:31] Well, I think going forward, we can just focus on the love. I think bringing the story to attention is important because it's been all over the Internet, and these apologists have had a lot. Six months or however long it's been to spread their ideas. And I want to push back and say, if you're going to talk about Charlie going forward, then it sure as hell better Be celebrating the joy and love that they share and the excitement that they have for this new chapter in their life.
John Dehlin [00:51:02] Love it. Well, I'll just share my perspective, too. A couple years ago, when Gerardo was working closely with me, Gerardo's gay. And, you know, Gerardo and I had covered years and years and years of decades of the church excommunicating gay people, lesbian people, queer people, same sex married couples. We all know about the November 2015 policy where the church made same sex marriage an excommunicable offense and mandatory, which made same sex marriage more of a sin than pedophilia and rape and spousal abuse.
John Dehlin [00:51:37] So we've all lived through that, and more importantly, the LGBTQ Mormons have lived through that for decades. And then all of a sudden, Charlie and Ryan very publicly announced they got married. And then we learned that Charlie and Ryan were attending a ward and had a calling when generations of LGBTQ Mormons had been excommunicated for the same behavior. And the church seemed to be allowing it. And so Gerardo wanted to find out if this was true. And so Gerardo, you know, went and found out for himself that they were actually. Because he didn't want to report on something false or untrue. So Gerardo went to see for himself that they were attending church.
John Dehlin [00:52:25] And when Gerardo spoke about that, just. People lost their minds. And I did not ask Harado to do that. I did not send him out there. That was all Gerardo's decision as a gay Mormon. And equality, Utah, equality, you know, Arizona equality, Wyoming, they all denounced me for Gerardo's decision to, you know, talk about this stuff. And all I can say is I've always been super happy that Charlie and Ryan could be faithful Mormons and be same sex married. That's what I've been wanting for 20 plus years, is for the church to stop going after and punishing LGBTQ Mormons and to stop forcing LGBTQ Mormons to choose between who they love and their faith.
John Dehlin [00:53:20] But I just felt like if Charlie and Ryan were going to talk publicly about their stories, then there needed to be a broader public discussion about what the church is and is not allowing for. For. For no other reason than for all the LGBTQ Mormons that have been excommunicated and punished.
John Dehlin [00:53:42] So I. I only want good things to happen to Charlie and Ryan. But if they are going to be public figures and publicly tell everyone that they're faithful, believing Mormons attending church and getting same sex married and having surrogate children, then it then Then they're inviting public discussion.
John Dehlin [00:54:04] They're not inviting bigotry, which I think we're denouncing. But you know, if anyone knows, it's me that once you enter the public fray, you're going to get attacked. And that's just what, that's just what you experience when you choose to be a public figure. So I denounce all the haters and all the faithful Mormons that are bigoted towards Charlie and Ryan. I denounce that bigotry.
John Dehlin [00:54:31] And that's why I feel like this, this needs to be discussed. And it's honestly, if Charlie and Ryan are saying we're going to talk publicly about all our experiences as faithful gay, same sex married Mormons having surrogate children, we're going to talk publicly about that. But no one should talk about it. That, that just doesn't, that doesn't make sense. So I denounce all bigotry.
John Dehlin [00:55:00] I denounce, you know, all the hate speech. And I just say if Charlie and Ryan don't want people to talk about them, then they shouldn't have a social media presence where they're talking about all this stuff. I think.
Megan [00:55:16] Yes. Yeah, yeah. Once you become a public figure, you will be discussed publicly.
John Dehlin [00:55:23] And once you make your faithful Mormonism as a same sex married couple seeking children public, this is what you're inviting. So, yeah, they should denounce the bigotry. I don't think they can reasonably ask people not to talk about this.
Megan [00:55:43] Yeah, yeah, I don't think so either.
John Dehlin [00:55:44] Yeah. But I wish them well and I wish all the haters to go silent, you know?
Megan [00:55:50] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:55:52] Yeah. All right. Anything else about this story or should we move on?
Megan [00:55:55] Let's move on.
John Dehlin [00:55:56] Let's move on. All right, well, it wouldn't be a week of Mormon news without another former Mormon bishop being accused of sexual abuse. So who's it this week, Megan?
Former Bishop Charged with Possession of Abuse Material
Megan [00:56:10] Former bishop found with child sexual abuse material on phone after arrest during a prostitution sting. That's the headline.
John Dehlin [00:56:18] All right, and who's reporting that? That's ABC4 News in Utah.
Guest 2 [00:56:24] What's the story?
Megan [00:56:25] So then I actually read through the affidavit of probable cause and the arrest reports and this is where I got that information from. So the arrest was Eric Hans Monson. Eric was a bishop in the case, Creek Ward, that actually I got that, that little bit of information from Rebecca Biblioteca in Layton, Utah from September 11, 2011 to January 1, 2017. At the time of his arrest, he was a Sunday school teacher arrested Aug. 17, 2026, undercover prostitution operation. Police say he agreed to pay $200 for sex arrest. Arrested after arriving at the meeting location, police obtained a warrant to search his phone. So that's how it. That's how it began is because of the prostitution.
John Dehlin [00:57:12] And of course, the name Monson makes me already immediately wonder whether he's related to Thomas S. Monson.
Megan [00:57:18] But I did look into that, and I couldn't find a direct relation. So maybe it's like a. Yeah, who knows, Cousin's child or something. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:57:27] All right, what else about the story?
Megan [00:57:30] So when they searched his phone, they found conversations involving prostitution, escort and hookup websites, numerous kick conversations and groups. Police say some messages appeared to have been deleted, and investigators obtained an expanded search warrant. And then photo on the right, that's from his Facebook page. So it says, I'm here to light the world. That's a little banner that the church put out during Christmas time for everyone who was a member to put on their Facebook pages.
John Dehlin [00:57:59] Okay, all right, what's the next slide about?
Megan [00:58:04] So he was charged with three second degree felony counts. And this is where the expanded phone search came in, because they busted him for the prostitution. But when, then they looked at his phone, they found images of children on there. And actually when they asked him about it, he said he has his entire life fantasized about teenage girls. And then as he got older, it just never went away. So prosecutors allege at least three child sex abuse material images found on his device. Children depicted were allegedly younger than 10. And the charges were filed August 28th and. Right. So then in my mind, I had to tie it back to the fact that he admits that he's fantasized about teenagers and he was a bishop.
John Dehlin [00:58:50] And just so people know, I don't think it's unfair. Like, I'll always say this on Mormon stories. Our goal is never to go after people. It's after institutions. And what I'm most concerned about is, number one, the teaching that once a bishop follows a bishop. That's the Mormon Church's, you know, teachings, not mine. And that bishops have the gift of discernment, that they're called by God, that you should obey them. I think that's dangerous.
John Dehlin [00:59:21] And. And so it's more the church's teachings around the gift of discernment and that leaders are called by God, that they speak for God. That's, you know, and then the church, you know, the. The bishops are. I think the bishops are approved by the prophet when they're called.
John Dehlin [00:59:41] So that's what I'M targeting along with the fact that bishops get to be alone with 12 year old girls or 12 year old boys and ask them secret questions about their sexual behavior. Those are the things I'm most. And that the church uses its attorneys to protect sexual predators and to pressure victims to forgive the predators and to not report sexual abuse to law enforcement. Those are the things that I care about. Megan.
Megan [01:00:15] Yes. Yes. And that's why the distinction that he was a bishop is so important. Because bishops are, we're taught that they have the gift of discernment when they're not just the bishop himself, but when he's called the stake president knew that he was gonna supposed to be the bishop, so then he called him to be the bishop. And I don't think that any parents sending their child into an interview with him even consider the fact that he might be fantasizing about their child. I wouldn't have thought about that as a parent. It wasn't something that was on my radar.
John Dehlin [01:00:50] This is enough to let every you know, the fact that a former Mormon bishop admits that his whole life he's fantasized about sex with children should make every Mormon parent from now until the end of time not allow their children to be alone with the Mormon bishop.
Megan [01:01:09] Yep. Period.
John Dehlin [01:01:10] Yeah. Period. All right, let's, let's continue.
Megan [01:01:16] Yeah. So this is from the affidavit of probable cause. The current offense is a felony. There is a substantial evidence. There is substantial evidence to support the charge and through clear and convincing evidence would constitute a substantial danger to another individual or to the community or is likely to flee the jurisdiction of the court if released on bail. In going through Eric's phone, it is very clear that Eric is an active member in his community. In several conversations found Eric is claiming to either be a church group leader or used to be recently bishop of the LDS Church. And I believe this can pose a substantial risk to the community, specifically the children of the community.
Megan [01:01:51] As he is claiming to hold a trusted position and probably has common contact with several children in his community. With the charges listed above and Eric admitting to be that he fantasizes about 15 year old female children, I believe he poses a risk to the community and should be held without bail.
John Dehlin [01:02:08] Yeah, that's super disturbing. Megan, I'm curious, do you have an opinion about why so many of these child sexual predators are bishops or former bishops? Like it just seems like they're disproportionately bishops. What is it about current and former Mormon bishops that makes them seemingly so greater likely to be Predators.
Megan [01:02:33] I don't know. I think it's the whole, like there are so many factors that play into that, like growing up in purity culture and being sexually repressed and how that comes out when these people become adults. And then this guy, like he was also seemed very charismatic. People only had nice things to say about him on his Facebook PA page and just he's been hiding this likely or being ashamed about it since he was a teenager.
Megan [01:03:03] And so showing up in these ways where people really enjoyed being with him. And so to become a bishop, it's like he's, he's presented himself so well for so long, maybe to hide this as a reaction to hiding this thing that he felt ashamed about. And so, yeah, to get called into the bishopric would just be the next step for someone who's good looking and charismatic and, you know, friends with everybody. It is interesting though. I'm sure there are a lot of psychological reasons that this continues to be bishops and stake presidents.
John Dehlin [01:03:37] Yeah. And I'll just say what I say often, which is when a church is founded by a leader, Joseph Smith, who literally married 14 year old girls, 15 year old girls, 16 year old girls, 17 year old girls, mother, daughter pairs, sister pairs, and by the way, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball also were polyandrists. They also married child brides. When your first several, you know, church presidents or prophets can be fairly classified as sexual predators of teenage girls, can you be surprised that subsequent leaders will exhibit the same behavior?
Megan [01:04:23] No, I, I mean, I think people are surprised, but I don't know that they should be surprised. Yeah, sadly. Yeah, it just, it's, it's the way, it's the path of the church. A lot of times I will look
John Dehlin [01:04:37] forward to the day where this isn't happening every week because I don't want this to be the, the, the church I'm associated with. I don't want, I don't want to be associated with the church of, of sexual predators. So I hope the church cleans this up.
Megan [01:04:52] Yes, absolutely. And I think bringing it to light over and over and over again, hopefully we'll push them in that direction. I mean, it's been happening for years,
John Dehlin [01:04:59] but yeah, I personally believe that one of the reasons the church is suing me and Mormon Stories podcast is because we cover too much stories like this. That's my personal opinion.
Megan [01:05:11] Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. It definitely is not a good look for them.
John Dehlin [01:05:15] Yeah. And speaking of not a good look. On to the next story. Last week we covered the church's multi Billion dollar real estate portfolio. The top one or two private owner of real estate in the entire United States. What's the next headline of this week, Megan?
LDS Church Investment Performance Under Scrutiny
Megan [01:05:42] Well, they have all this money, but it doesn't seem they're managing it all that well. So the LDS Church's stock portfolio is up by billions, but is its strategy losing money over time?
John Dehlin [01:05:53] Tell me more.
Megan [01:05:56] So the value of a huge investment portfolio managed for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints grew by 7.1% billion over the spring, ending at 60.8 billion at the end of June. Buried as newly disclosed numbers from the second quarter, though, there seems to be a broader downward trend. Managers at Ensign Peak Advisors, the Church's investment arm, appear to have lost large amounts of money since 2020 by trying to second guess markets and coming up short.
John Dehlin [01:06:23] Huh.
Megan [01:06:25] So basically there, I don't understand this fully, but there is the s and P500, which is a basic investment strategy. And the Church is using that most of the time. But when they veer from it, they seem to not do a good job and then their investments suffer. Am I saying that right, John?
John Dehlin [01:06:43] I mean, the way I, I'm not a stock broker either, but the way I understand it is the s and P500 is like an index of 500 of the top, you know, companies in the United States that they recommend you invest in. And so you can literally just buy an S and P index fund and you're going to get a fantastic return. I'll be honest. I've been investing in the s and P500 with my retirement funds for a long, long time. And it's just a very simple way to get a great return. And you don't have to assume extra risk and you don't have to pay expensive brokers to try and do fancy things. You just buy the S P index funds and you do great. So that's, that's how I understand it. So what, what, what are you learning?
Megan [01:07:33] That the investment arm of the church, the people who run that are not sticking to the S P. Yeah. Inside Peak. And when and when they don't, they're losing money. So they should just follow the S P and then they would be making more money. They're taking this tithing and they're investing it and they're not being super wise about it.
John Dehlin [01:07:54] So you're saying the church is paying people to lose money for the church?
Megan [01:08:00] Yeah, likely paying them. Well, I would think, yes, yes, because they could do what you're doing. They could just put it in an S and P fund and go. And they would have made more money
John Dehlin [01:08:09] that way and not have to pay expensive people to lose the church money. Okay, what is this slide?
Megan [01:08:16] So this is from the Widow's Might report in the Salt Lake Tribune. Ensign Peak and church wealth since 2020. Ensign Peaks returns are 18.5% below what they could have been by simply matching the S&P 500. Ensign Peaks disclosed US stock portfolio is only one piece of the Church's wealth, which I think is important to remember. Estimated Total church investments, $231 billion at the end of 2025. Estimated total church wealth, 321 billion. That's an increase of 28 billion in one year. So they still are making money, obviously, but they could have made more money if they had just gone the simple route. And also, like you said, not paid people.
John Dehlin [01:08:57] Yeah. And we covered this last week that Mormon general authorities are on record telling people in, in Latin America and the Philippines that they, they should pay their tithing before they buy shoes or buy food to eat if they're hungry. And they're doing that sitting on over $300 billion of wealth. And we know that the Church intentionally hid its wealth from the membership because they were afraid the church members would stop paying tithing if they found out how wealthy the church was, which is. They were fined $5 million, I think, in total by the securities and Exchange Commission for what I would call fraud. I think people need to remember that.
Megan [01:09:40] Yes. Yeah, it's important. Don't. Don't forget about how they did that. The next slide just shows with this tithing in mind that they're asking people to pay instead of feeding their children. These are their top seven holdings of 1 billion or more. There's going to be some companies we all recognize there.
John Dehlin [01:09:56] Yeah.
Megan [01:09:57] Nvidia, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, and Micron. And then the other ones where they have 500 million to just over a billion. Eli Lilly, JPMorgan Chase, MasterCard, Tesla, Advanced Micro Devices, Applied Materials Unit, UnitedHealth Group, ExxonMobil, Oracle and Johnson and Johnson and
John Dehlin [01:10:17] I. I've also heard the Church is heavily invested in like the military industrial complex. All these firms that make bombs and jets and, and weapons that kill people.
Megan [01:10:30] Yes.
Guest [01:10:31] Yeah.
Megan [01:10:31] And I've seen non LDS influencers who watch the stock market comment on that. It's really interesting to see it from an outside perspective.
John Dehlin [01:10:39] We should, we should include that in a news report. Megan.
Megan [01:10:43] Okay. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:10:45] Volunteer. What's the. Yeah.
Megan [01:10:48] Yes. Yes.
John Dehlin [01:10:50] Yeah. So what's the next slide?
Megan [01:10:54] This isn't going to be as good for people who aren't watching. But it's just a visual representation of how much a trillion dollars is.
John Dehlin [01:11:01] Yeah.
Megan [01:11:01] So it has a hundred dollar bill, what a stack of $10,000 looks like, then a million, then 100 million, then a billion and then a trillion. And a trillion is a couple of miles worth of dollar bills. And you can see the tiny little person over to the side like that's what the church will likely be worth.
John Dehlin [01:11:18] Yeah.
Megan [01:11:18] According to the widow spine, between 2040 and 2050.
John Dehlin [01:11:22] Yep. In the next 15, 20, 30 years, the Mormon Church will be a trillion dollar church. And the members are like, woohoo. Jesus has plenty of money for the second coming, you know?
Megan [01:11:36] Yeah, I remember that part in the New Testament.
John Dehlin [01:11:42] Oh, anyway, that's a great story. Thank you for covering it, Megan.
Megan [01:11:47] Yeah, it's always good to not forget about their massive wealth.
Heber Valley Temple and Utah Supreme Court Battle
John Dehlin [01:11:51] Really quickly, I want to share a couple super chats. We want to thank everyone who donates through the super chat function or just donates to Mormon Stories, the Open Stories Foundation. Steve Taverner says, nice work Julia. He's referring to Julia's video about the lawsuit. Nice work, Julia. You caught them in a lie. No surprise. Been lying for the Lord since Joseph Smith. Thanks for the super chat. Any of you who want your comments to be shown can share them as super chats as well.
John Dehlin [01:12:20] Also, thank you, Christina Cruz 6580 for the super chat as well. I do want to remind people that the website for this podcast is mormonnews.com and there's a donate button@mormonnews.com and if you want to donate specifically to my and Megan's project here, it's still a pilot technically, but we're, we're trying to cover Mormon News weekly.
John Dehlin [01:12:45] You can donate specifically to that project@mormonnews.com Click on the Donate button and we use that money to pay Megan and, and Julia and Brooklyn and me and just to make all this possible. So please support the Mormon News podcast and thanks to everyone who supports Mormon Stories podcast as well. Any comments on that, Megan?
Megan [01:13:08] Just keep us going. I think this is fun for me and I've gotten a lot of positive feedback about sharing the news here.
John Dehlin [01:13:15] So yes, you could also subscribe to Mormon Stories Podcast and also subscribe to generally unquotable on YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and Facebook as well.
Megan [01:13:25] Yeah, there is enough Mormon news for everybody to report on it.
Guest 2 [01:13:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:13:29] And we love Rebecca Bibliotheca and Mormonish Podcast and Radio Free Mormon And Bill, real Mormonism live Mormon news. Mormon news. What is it? Mormon news.
Megan [01:13:41] The Mormon newscast. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:13:43] And then also Nemo the Mormon does a great job and analyzing Mormonism. So great, great outlets all around. We support them all. All right, what's the next story?
Megan [01:13:52] So Red Ledges residents break silence ahead of Utah Supreme Court Heber Valley Temple arguments.
John Dehlin [01:13:58] So I assume what Red Ledges is,
Megan [01:14:02] it's where they're trying to build the Heber Valley Temple. This has been ongoing for years. The church bought land there and proposed the temple and the residents fought back and they haven't. They've been fighting in court, so they haven't been speaking openly. So this is going to tell us their side of the story, why they are opposing a temple of that size in that location.
John Dehlin [01:14:24] I would assume the majority of Red Ledges residents are faithful Latter Day Saints. Do you think that's a. Yeah.
Megan [01:14:32] I mean, Heber. Yeah, he is a very Mormon. Part of Utah.
John Dehlin [01:14:37] Huh. All right, so tell us more.
Megan [01:14:40] So Wasatch county approved the Heber City Temple despite its location in a residential zone where new developments may be 35ft from the natural grade. The well lit temple is set to be 210ft tall and 88,000 square feet.
John Dehlin [01:14:55] Okay. All right.
Megan [01:14:57] So that was what spurred the, the pushback. So this is Bruce Van Dusen, spokesperson for the residents. He said, we believe that creates a troubling precedent. What certainty do zoning laws actually provide? We are simply saying established land use laws cannot be selectively waived for one property in one neighborhood. The same rules apply to everyone. So he just doesn't want the church to get special treatment, huh?
John Dehlin [01:15:23] I would think faithful Latter Day Saints want the church to get special treatment. But we don't know his religious affiliation.
Megan [01:15:31] No, I.
John Dehlin [01:15:32] Go ahead.
Megan [01:15:33] Oh, I, I was looking into his background, but there was, there was not a lot to find.
John Dehlin [01:15:38] Well, this reminds me of all the temple hullabaloo that, that Rebecca and Landon and Nemo have been covering for a couple years now. The church using its power and money and influence to just seems to be run roughshod over local zoning laws and municipal policies.
Megan [01:16:00] Yes. Yeah. And I've worked in city government and the zoning laws are there for a reason. They, they don't just. Somebody doesn't just write one and throw it up there. They go through long approval processes and they have to get community feedback. And so for the church to go in and just honestly, it looks like they just do whatever they want. It really isn't respectful of the communities that they're in.
John Dehlin [01:16:25] So what's the next clip or the next slide?
Megan [01:16:28] Yeah. The Utah Supreme Court ruled in February that construction on the Heber Valley temple could continue. That decision came after years of legal back and forth between Red Ledges residents, Wasatch county, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and 4th District Court Judge Jennifer Mabey, who originally presided over the case. Sam Penrod, media relations manager for the church, said the court's decision this year was a welcome one. Once completed, this temple will bless the lives of Latter Day Saints in the Heber Valley by providing a sacred house of worship closer to their homes. Penrod said in February. I. You can provide a sacred place of worship that's not that tall. Can people not feel the spirit if the building isn't over 50ft tall? It logically, it does not make a lot of sense. And for these residents, they're like, just follow the law.
John Dehlin [01:17:20] Yeah. So you've got a clip from Thomas S. Monson. What's this clip about?
Megan [01:17:28] Just play it, because I think he's telling us how the church should act in this situation.
John Dehlin [01:17:33] Never let a problem to be solved
Guest 2 [01:17:36] become more important than a person to be loved.
John Dehlin [01:17:43] All right.
Megan [01:17:45] Like the church. The church thinks this is this huge problem. Like, we just have to build this temple, and if we don't, we're going to give up our legal rights. But they're alienating not just the general public, but their own members. And it. So we've seen this happen in Texas, it's happening in Bakersfield, California. It actually surprised me when it started happening in Utah.
John Dehlin [01:18:07] Yeah. Well, the thing that I'm surprised of is that anyone would ever dare speak up against the church in Utah. That's what surprises me.
Megan [01:18:14] Yes, that's what I'm saying. Like, you know, in Texas, sure. But in their own backyard, they're getting pushback from people who are like, go ahead and build your temple. Just follow the laws of the land. I feel like you have an article of faith that maybe says you should do that.
John Dehlin [01:18:31] I mean, I honestly think I. This is my theory, and I'm curious if you agree or have a different perspective. You know, I remember the threefold mission of the church. Proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, and redeem the dead. And we all know that the missionary program is in relative freefall. We've covered that here on the Mormon News podcast previously. Even though the church is claiming more missionaries than ever, more baptisms than ever, we know the church is shrinking in the United States and it's hemorrhaging worldwide, except in Places like Africa where members can be, in effect, deceived and bribed into joining. They're not getting informed consent.
John Dehlin [01:19:20] The church is using education and money as a bribe for poor people to join. But the church is, let's just face it, the church is in decline. They're selling chapels all over Utah, all over California. And it's just been the birth rate that's been keeping the church alive in the United States. And even that is in free fall.
John Dehlin [01:19:43] So the church can't really focus on perfect the saints because the saints are leaving in droves. And they can't really, you know, really emphasize, proclaim the gospel, because the missionary program is in free fall if the church is being honest about the numbers and its failures.
John Dehlin [01:20:03] So all the church can do and really legitimately claim success over is to use its massive wealth to buy temples and to get whatever members it has left to. To do these dead, sterile, meaningless ordinances for dead people that if anyone spent a minute to think about how silly it is that God is having humans spend their time when they could be delivering clean water to people, teaching people literacy, helping relieve the world of famine and poverty and disease, they're literally dressing up in white and going to these temples to do fake baptisms for dead people that don't need any ordinance work done. That's all the church can do to really produce any meaningful numbers of success.
John Dehlin [01:20:55] And these temples are just gross, gaudy, worldly, materialistic displays of wealth. And that's why the church wants them to be as big and as gaudy and as bright and as obnoxious as possible. Because it's the only symbol the church can advance of actual, quote, success and progress. I know that's a really harsh take. So tell me if you see it differently, Megan.
Megan [01:21:26] No, it actually makes sense. And I was trying not to laugh because is somewhat humorous to think of a church that has all of this wealth. It's humorous and it's sad. And what they're doing is they're making white clothing and sending people into a building where they don't even talk to anyone the whole time. They just do the same thing over and over and over again. It's so mindless. It's so ridiculous. Yeah, I totally agree.
John Dehlin [01:21:58] Time and money. I mean, it's not because it helps. It helps make the members feel like they're doing something righteous and significant. So the church benefits, and you can say the members benefit in a way. It's just, does the world, does humanity benefit?
Guest [01:22:16] No.
Megan [01:22:16] Because what if they were spending all of those Hours even just like reading books to kids and like you said, delivering water, working at a soup kitchen.
John Dehlin [01:22:27] How about protecting Mormon children from child abuse? That'd be a good thing for the church members to spend their time doing.
Megan [01:22:32] Absolutely. The amount of hours that are spent in a temple every week with people over the age of 60, they could be doing a lot of other things.
John Dehlin [01:22:42] Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad we covered that. And speaking of Mormon temples, we've got another story involving Mormon temples. As if that weren't enough, Megan.
Salt Lake Temple Reopening and Public Celebration
Guest 2 [01:22:52] Yep.
Megan [01:22:52] And there was a huge build up to this, so I wanted to like experience that. So this says Salt Lake City's signature LDS temple is undergoing a historic transformation. Here's a peek inside. They allowed CNN to come in the temple with cameras. And so go to the clip. This is just a portion of the clip.
John Dehlin [01:23:09] All right.
▶ Video Clip 2Video Clip 2 [01:23:11] For the past 133 years, unless you were in good standing with the church, you were not allowed to walk into the temple. I'm not in good standing with any church. So why am I allowed now? Well, because they are opening this temple up for the world world to see.
Video Clip 2 [01:23:31] We want the world to see the
Video Clip 2 [01:23:34] joy and happiness that comes in a greater understanding of the blessings that our heavenly Father has in store for us.
Video Clip 2 [01:23:39] There are a few rules for the construction workers on this massive multi year project.
Video Clip 2 [01:23:46] In the contract with the general contractors, it says no vulgar language, no loud music. It's part of the level of decorum we expect. Now all of this construction is new,
Video Clip 2 [01:23:56] made to look old. Look, if you take a look at that chandelier that is modeled on a chandelier from a catalog from the time that the old temple was built. After the Lord comes, we want this temple to be in service. I believe I've been prepared by God to, to be on this. We from the outside, we definitely do feel that there's something secretive and maybe stuff going on that we just don't know about.
Video Clip 2 [01:24:18] I like to say, yes, it's sacred. Sacred, not secret.
Video Clip 2 [01:24:21] Sacred, not secret.
Video Clip 2 [01:24:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:24:26] What do you think, Megan?
Megan [01:24:27] I just think it's interesting when the church allows someone in and what they allow them to present well. And then I just loved the sacred, not secret at the end. Like, can we retire that line along with the they can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone.
John Dehlin [01:24:44] I'm surprised that it's newsworthy that during remodelings they let the general public come into the temple before it's rededicated. Haven't they been doing that for decades?
Megan [01:24:56] Yes, but it's the Salt Lake Temple, John.
John Dehlin [01:24:59] Oh, I mean, yeah. And they did spend probably a billion or more remodeling the temple. And I think it's cool. Like, I love that temple. I love our history. I appreciate fine craftsmanship. So, I mean, I think it's even cool that they're remodeling and renovating Temple Square. I think it's cool.
Megan [01:25:20] Yeah. I mean, I, I think a church that claims to be Jesus is one true church would likely spend their money in ways that benefit more people. But that's fair. There is something to be said for preservation of history.
John Dehlin [01:25:38] Yeah, no, that's true. Like, the level of the amount of money being spent is problematic because Jesus even in the Book of Mormon condemns costly apparel and seems to condemn opulence, you know, religion or church based opulence. So this really does seem to fly in the face. Like, wouldn't Jesus rather that money be spent clothing the naked, feeding the poor, helping out the literal widows, etc?
Megan [01:26:09] Yes. We're just offering people clean water and medical care.
John Dehlin [01:26:14] Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Okay, so what else is going on?
Megan [01:26:21] So then, so that was kind of the beginning of the week was CNN's big reveal. Right. And then the Temple Square Facebook page said a meaningful chapter in the story of the Salt Lake Temple is about to begin. Join us tomorrow for a special media event as we reveal the theme for the Salt Lake Temple Squ celebration. And, you know, watch the church newsroom live stream starting at 10:30am and be among the first to hear what is planned for this historic occasion. I just loved that they used the word reveal like it's going to be a revelation. It's just like a social media push. Yeah. So this was just the next step in that process of them like building to this huge moment.
John Dehlin [01:27:05] Yeah. Okay. And do we, do we think that someone's not being honest here?
Megan [01:27:13] Well, let, let's, let's keep going here. So this, I took a few tiny little clips from the reveal. So they had like a 30 minute live press video that they put out everywhere live. And this is the, the first bit of that. So let's watch the clip.
John Dehlin [01:27:33] All right, let's play the clip.
Guest 2 [01:27:36] Good morning. We welcome each of you back to the Salt Lake Temple. It is good to be back in this house of the Lord. We are grateful to have with us President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and Chairman of the Salt Lake Temple Celebration. We welcome Elder Quentin L. Cook and Elder Neil L. Anderson of The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and also of the Salt Lake Temple Celebration Executive Committee. We excuse Elder Gary E. Stevenson, a member of the Executive Committee who is traveling on assignment. Also seated at the front are President Camille N. Johnson, General Relief Society President and member of the Salt Lake Temple Celebration Executive Committee, President Emily Bell Freeman, General Young Women President and President Rosemary K. Chabota, General Primary president.
John Dehlin [01:28:32] Okay, what's wrong with that?
Megan [01:28:34] Well, it seems kind of boring, but it's just all this pomp and circumstance around. Let's talk about all of the men who are here and let's show them on the camera. And then let's say. And also, like, it's kind of a side note, the women are here and you can't even see all of them. Them in this camera angle. But we promise you they're here.
Guest [01:28:52] It just.
Megan [01:28:52] They're just not cognizant of how they are presenting themselves in that way. I don't think it's hard to run
John Dehlin [01:28:58] away from the fact that the church is a patriarchy, you know?
Guest [01:29:02] Yeah.
Megan [01:29:03] They couldn't even get their camera to pan all the way over to show the primary president.
John Dehlin [01:29:09] All right, should we roll the next clip?
Megan [01:29:11] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:29:12] All right.
Megan [01:29:13] We invite the children to come and see.
Guest 2 [01:29:17] We invite the youth to come and feel. We invite families to come and learn
Megan [01:29:23] together that this is the literally the house of God.
John Dehlin [01:29:30] Okay. What's wrong with a woman? That's a woman.
Megan [01:29:32] I know, I'm.
John Dehlin [01:29:33] It's a woman of color. What's wrong with that?
Megan [01:29:36] Now I'm so glad that they allowed a woman to speak. That's amazing. I'm so glad that they called a woman of color into a leadership position. I think that's amazing. And I didn't find anything particularly wrong with what she said. I just wanted to get your reaction and maybe in the comments too. Like, what is the literal house of God? A temple, like God needs an edifice or multiple. How many now? A couple hundred houses on earth. It's just another one of those things where if you scratch the surface, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Guest [01:30:07] Sense.
John Dehlin [01:30:08] Well, and Mormons, you know, that's dog whistling to Mormons because Mormons believe that God and Jesus appear in the temple, that there's a. There's a special sacred secret room called the Holy of Holies where Mormons are taught Mormon prophets literally talk to Jesus face to face. And I think we all know that actually doesn't happen. And we've actually had past Mormon prophets admit they don't talk to Jesus. But past and possibly current Mormon prophets admit that. But still, that belief is allowed to be spread amongst the membership that when they say house of the Lord, they mean that God and Jesus show up and talk to prophets face to face, which is not true. But that's what the. That's what the dog whistling means there.
Megan [01:30:53] And she almost didn't say it and then she stopped because she stumbled and then said literal. So, yeah, it's just one of those interesting things in Mormonism.
John Dehlin [01:31:02] It's that God can't appear to people unless there's some super expensive, ornate Mormon building with chandeliers. And by the way, that also implies that God doesn't really appear to other people. Not in Catholic cathedrals or Protestant cathedrals or Muslim mosques or Jewish temples. Like God's only showing up in these opulent, super expensive white Mormon temples that are trampling on people's property rights and becoming eyesores to the broader community.
Megan [01:31:37] Yes. Yeah, you can see the temple out your window and not that beautiful mountain range anymore, but God's going to be there.
John Dehlin [01:31:42] I mean, God can't appear anywhere else,
Megan [01:31:45] you know, appear in the mountains. But isn't that where he typically. Even in the Book of Mormon, that's where he went was, to the mountain.
John Dehlin [01:31:51] Yeah. We have a comment. Thanks for the super chat, randoms 7113. They write, on my mission, we attended Sikh temples all the time. Who fed anyone walking in the door. Workers cooked for everyone. Imagine if LDS temples had that. Amen. Thank you for the super chat. And amen.
Megan [01:32:13] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:32:13] Wouldn't that be amazing if all the money and time and energy and wealth were spent actually doing what Jesus taught?
Guest 2 [01:32:22] Yep.
Megan [01:32:23] I envision it sometimes.
John Dehlin [01:32:25] Should do. Yeah. All right, let's play the next clip.
Guest 2 [01:32:29] Ladies and gentlemen, I feel so grateful to be able to be here with you today on this special occasion, this great announcement. As I thought about what I could say, I'm just sitting here in this incredible edifice. Odd by. By the artistry, the beauty of this building. A building that could challenge any building anywhere in this country or Europe, anywhere in the world.
John Dehlin [01:32:55] Okay.
Megan [01:32:57] I just thought that was kind of funny. Like, Mormons have this. They often have this overinflated sense of importance where it's like, the Salt Lake Temple is a historic building and they are restoring it to look historical. And there are a lot of really cool, beautiful, architecturally significant buildings in the world. And when I searched online. So the next slide, you'll see it's. We don't have to read through it, but it's like the top. The world's 26 most beautiful buildings in 2026. There's not a single Mormon temple on there.
John Dehlin [01:33:32] Yeah, go ahead and let's read it.
Megan [01:33:35] Well, a lot of them I can't pronounce. So do you want to go for it, Josh?
John Dehlin [01:33:40] All the Barbican Estate in the uk, the Hall Grim Scourge in Iceland, I'm making. I'm mastering the production. Sagrada Familia in Spain, Museum sun in South Korea, Pyramids of Giza, Egypt. I think we get the picture. Lots and lots and lots of the most beautiful buildings in 2026. I mean, maybe, you know, anti Mormons created that list.
Megan [01:34:07] I'm sure they did. I'm not saying that the Salt Lake Temple can't be beautiful. I'm just saying, like the fact that he's comparing it to every building in the world and it can compete with the cathedrals of Europe, I think might be a stretch.
John Dehlin [01:34:18] I mean, it's a little Mormon centric. It's a little Utah centric, maybe.
Megan [01:34:22] Yeah. Well, and he is a politician. And who leads Utah right now?
John Dehlin [01:34:26] So governor of the state.
Megan [01:34:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:34:29] All right, let's play the next clip.
Megan [01:34:31] Okay.
Guest 2 [01:34:32] And actually the purpose of us being together here today is actually there are two things we want to make sure. First of all, we wanted to listen to the children. Right. That was the most beautiful testimony that we want to see the temple. But then we wanted to talk to you about the theme of the celebration of this Salt Lake Temple in the coming year. And I think you wouldn't guess it, but maybe you have. It is rejoice in Christ.
John Dehlin [01:35:13] All right. What's wrong with rejoicing in Christ, Megan?
Megan [01:35:15] There's something wrong. That was just the moment, Right. The whole months and months and months since Russell Nelson announced this have been building to this moment. And it was fairly obvious that Dieter Uchtdorf was kind of speaking off the cuff. It didn't look like he was reading from a script. He stumbled a lot. He. And for him to say, well, you might have guessed it, and here it is, it just didn't seem revelatory. It just was very normal. I think that was the. The feeling that I came away with, was that it was just so normal.
John Dehlin [01:35:51] Okay, all right, let's play the next clip.
Guest 2 [01:36:01] This morning we talked about the people in Nepal who are suffering and in many other places, and our prayers and our thoughts, our feelings go out. Church, for instance, is reaching out now and preparing for significant help for the people of Nepal. Even though we have very, very few members there. And that is the reason why we rejoice in Christ. It's independent.
John Dehlin [01:36:28] Interesting. Why'd you include that one, Megan? It.
Megan [01:36:31] His speech was so strange, if you listen to it for the event. But then he's saying and admitting. And this is why I really don't think he was speaking from something that was written previously saying, we don't have a lot of members in Nepal. Like, they don't typically try to say stuff like that over the pulpit in a worldwide press conference, admitting that they have low membership anywhere.
John Dehlin [01:36:53] Yeah, that is weird. Let's show the slide because I think it relates.
Megan [01:36:59] Yeah, I just. Then I went and looked. How many members do they claim in Nepal? In 2009, they said fewer than 100 members. Members. That was from the Church News. In 2015, they said there is one branch with fewer than 100 active members. And then in 2017, they said fewer than 200 Latter Day Saints live in Nepal. A majority attended the devotional. On August 17, we had a large attendance of about 140, which was encouraging in itself. So it's just the way that they play with words.
John Dehlin [01:37:27] Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I'll just say that this is a tricky one, because on the one hand, we all want the Mormon Church to use more of its wealth to help the poor and the needy and the sick and the afflicted. On the other hand, Jesus was really clear. What did Jesus say about when you give to the poor, what you should and shouldn't do? Do you remember?
Megan [01:37:49] You're gonna have to tell me.
John Dehlin [01:37:50] He said, you don't talk about it. You don't boast about it. You don't.
Guest 2 [01:37:54] You don't.
John Dehlin [01:37:55] Your trumpets. When you give to the poor, you give in secret. So that's tricky because it would be hypocritical of us to call. Call the church out for not giving more to the poor and then to criticize them when they talk about giving to the poor. Because how else will we know if they're giving to the poor if they don't tell us? But it is just factually also true that Jesus said, you shouldn't do that. It's weird that they do that anyway.
Megan [01:38:25] Yes, but if they were just giving all the time, they wouldn't have to talk about it because people would just see it.
John Dehlin [01:38:31] Yeah, right.
Megan [01:38:32] Like if they were just out and every member in the world, instead of going to the temple, was out in their communities, people would just see it and know it, and they wouldn't be questioning it.
John Dehlin [01:38:41] Yeah. Yeah. And we all know that before the Ensign Peak scandal broke, the church gave a fraud. Even though the church gives far too little now in 2026, as a percentage of its wealth, it gave far, far less until the Ensign Peak scandal broke with. With David Nielsen whistleblower David Nielsen. And the church was shamed and embarrassed into admitting how selfish and stingy it was with its vast wealth. And only then did we see it really giving start to significantly increase. And then even then, people allege, and the widow's bite covers this, that a lot of the numbers that they claim nowadays in terms of their philanthropy are cooked. So I hope the church can take this on more seriously because if anyone can help with poverty and illness and disaster relief in the world, it's the trillion dollar Mormon church, you know?
Guest [01:39:41] Yep.
Megan [01:39:42] And I would love to see that happen. I will applaud them if they do it.
John Dehlin [01:39:46] Yeah. All right, let's play the next clip.
Guest 2 [01:39:51] We invite you to come and see and love Jesus Christ and the people who come here. And then you will see there will be a unity. We will not be judgmental against anyone or any faith, especially the rising generation. We invite to come and see and share what you have here and invite others to come to have the same experience.
John Dehlin [01:40:18] Okay, what's noteworthy about that, Megan?
Megan [01:40:21] Well, he. It just considering the first story that we talked about, he's saying everyone's welcome here. We're not going to be judgmental. At the same time, they say this is the one true church and we're the only ones who actually speak to God. So it's just this, you know, both sides of their mouth type thing. We love everyone, but there's always a. There's always a huge but at the end of that sentence for them.
John Dehlin [01:40:45] Also seems like he's just throwing in talking points. He's like, oh, we're hemorrhaging youth, so let's invite the young people. Oh, and by the way, we're giving in Nepal and you know, we're philanthropists here. I mean, he's. We all like Uchtdorf. We all want him to become prophet because he's the least bad apparently of all the apostles at the same time. So he's just seems like he's parroting talking points that his PR machine is giving to him, basically.
Megan [01:41:15] Yeah, it wasn't a well polished speech.
John Dehlin [01:41:18] Yeah. All right, let's go ahead and play the next clip.
Guest 2 [01:41:23] In order to truly rejoice in Christ together during the celebration, we need thousands of welcoming volunteers to create a joyful experience for Millions of guests. If you would like to be part of a once in a lifetime opportunity, we invite you to go to templesquare.org before September 14th and apply to join.
John Dehlin [01:41:48] Okay, so he's soliciting volunteers. What. What's noteworthy about that?
Megan [01:41:53] I just thought it was funny because the headline of this whole event was, in 24 hours, 1 million tickets were reserved. At the beginning, I said sold. They're not for sale. They were free, but 1 million tickets were reserved. Reserved. And yet for six months, how long has it been that they have been asking for these volunteers? And obviously those roles have not filled. So they've got a lot of people who want to come to the temple. They're having a really hard time getting people to come for free and volunteer to send people through the tours.
John Dehlin [01:42:26] And that. I think that takes us to the next story.
Megan [01:42:29] Yeah, so this was the. The culminating headline of this whole ordeal was 1 million spaces reserved in first 24 hours for upcoming Salt Lake Temple tours.
John Dehlin [01:42:42] Okay. Just at face value, that seems hard to believe that, like, the world is clamoring to, you know, visit the temple such that a million reservations would happen in the first 24 hours. It's almost like if we could get access to the primary plan, that this sort of headline would have been planned ahead of time. Because this idea that nothing succeeds like success, if you can create the appearance of interest in demand, that will help the church be more successful. But let's hear more of your reporting, Megan.
Megan [01:43:20] Well, so if you. There wasn't a lot of pushback on that headline. Right. But so this is just a different slide. So Mike Lee, who is also a politician in Utah, he said, if you're running For President in 2028, attending the Salt Lake Temple open house in 2027 is an absolute must. If you want any shot at the Latter Day Saint, vote, don't pass up the opportunity, which is the first of its kind in 130 years. And then Latter Day Truth responded to that by saying, I will only vote for a presidential candidate in 2028 who attends the Salt Lake Temple Open House. I need to know that whoever takes the Oval Office respects the Latter Day Saints. I bet I'm not alone.
John Dehlin [01:43:57] And it's worth noting that Mike Lee tags JD Vance, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, AOC Alexandria, Ocasio Cortez and Gavin Newsome. Mike Lee, man.
Megan [01:44:13] Yeah, well, and I just, I think, like, if I was still a member, I have 13 siblings, right. We would have all gone on and reserved the max amount of tickets and we could Get.
John Dehlin [01:44:23] Yeah.
Megan [01:44:23] Even if we knew we weren't going to use them all.
Guest 2 [01:44:25] Yeah.
Megan [01:44:26] So did they actually get a million reserved in the way that the public who reads that headline are going to think a million means likely not. There's probably lots of duplicates, plus social media influencers got first dibs and dignitaries, church leaders.
John Dehlin [01:44:45] But let's face it, the church will use its vast wealth and power to pull out all the stops to make this as big of a deal as they can. Whining and dining people, gifts, paying them, mobilizing members, the media, you know, it will do that. And that's what it can do when it's super wealthy and powerful. And I'll be honest, Megan, I'm not a bah humbug about this sort of thing.
John Dehlin [01:45:13] In some ways, like, I do cringe at the misuse of wealth, but I want to see Temple Square be beautiful. I want to see. I think, you know, just like Catholics and Protestants and Muslims and Jews are proud of their heritage, I still identify as a Mormon. I still am proud of my Mormon heritage. And I like historical preservation. And I think that's not like, you know, temple and Temple Square and.
John Dehlin [01:45:44] Yeah, I think they're important historical landmarks, personally. And I love Temple Square. I love the. I'll call it the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, even though that's not what it's named anymore. I love that stuff. It's just in my heart, buried embedded deep within.
John Dehlin [01:46:00] So I'm not a bah humbug about this, and I'm not judging people who are, and I'm not saying you are, but I'm just saying we're covering this. But in my heart, I'm like, go Temple Square. Okay, good. But that's just my opinion. Megan, what do you. What do you feel?
Megan [01:46:15] I'm gonna go, John. Don't think I didn't get tickets. I've actually never been inside the Salt Lake Temple.
John Dehlin [01:46:22] You're one of the million.
Megan [01:46:23] I'm one of the million. But I've never been in the Salt Lake Temple because every time we went after I was endowed, I ended up staying out to watch the kids. So I've literally never been inside the Salt Lake Temple. So I want to see it.
John Dehlin [01:46:36] Yeah, it's gorgeous. And it's even more gorgeous now. Yeah. Really quickly, you. You have one. At least one more slide. What's this?
Megan [01:46:45] Oh, so this. Somebody wrote this on X. The complete and utter disregard of people. This doesn't have anything to do with. Yeah, this. This is totally new. Yeah. So there were There were two other quick little stories that I had at the end. If we have time, but if not.
Guest 2 [01:47:02] Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.
John Dehlin [01:47:03] We got 12 minutes.
Megan [01:47:05] Okay, well let's skip the, the one before that then, because that one. But let's go to this one. Yeah, so the complete and utter disregard.
John Dehlin [01:47:13] But this is Dale Renlund. I. I like.
Guest 2 [01:47:15] Right.
John Dehlin [01:47:16] But go ahead and do it.
Megan [01:47:17] Okay, so Dale Renlund. I saw this yesterday. He posted on his social media pages, real men are accountable for their actions.
John Dehlin [01:47:25] We should tell people he's an apostle for the church.
Megan [01:47:28] Oh, sorry, I forget that not everyone knows that.
John Dehlin [01:47:31] One of the 12 apostles. One of the top 15 leaders of the church. Okay, keep going.
Megan [01:47:35] Okay. Real men are accountable for their actions, acknowledge their mistakes, apologize and try to set things right. I met some real men recently, members of my home ward. I want to tell you about. So we're thinking men here, John, when you think of men, what, what age group are we talking about? Real men.
John Dehlin [01:47:53] I don't even know.
Megan [01:47:55] Let's hope that he's thinking of people who are actually adults, you know, 18, 21 plus for using the term men. Let's see what he says though. Recently my wife Ruth substituted as a teacher in a youth Sunday school class. The students were 12 and 13 year old young men and young women. Some of the young men were acting like, well, 12 and 13 year old young men. They were a bit casual and less than engaged than ideal. In the lesson about job, Ruth had given the student a hand. The students a handout with some scriptures to read. Of course paper airplanes were made of the handouts.
Megan [01:48:26] Is anyone surprised? Ruth, who is an excellent and adaptable teacher, collected the airplanes, continued with the lesson and thought no more about it. On the following Thursday evening we had a knock on our door. Three of the young men were on the porch. They handed Ruth a letter that read. Dear Sister Renlund, we want to apologize for our behavior in Sunday school. We meant no disrespect even though our actions said otherwise. We failed to meet our duty as deacons and we are sorry. We have learned from our mistake and better learned what our Aaronic priesthood duty is. We have made a bouquet of paper airplanes for you to show our appreciate our appreciation for teaching our class and for helping us learn our duty better.
Megan [01:49:02] Thank you for what you do for the church. Love the deacons quorum. I am grateful for their example to me of being priesthood holders and real men.
John Dehlin [01:49:10] Okay, so what's to you, what's newsworthy about that?
Megan [01:49:13] I actually have come to very much dislike the term young men and young women when we're talking about teenagers.
John Dehlin [01:49:22] Because they're children.
Megan [01:49:23] Yes. Kids. Because now boys and girls, I think. Right. Go into young men and young women when they're the year that they turn 12. So they could even be 11 years old. Like they're not even teenagers. Some of these real men that he's talking about and then he's saying that they acted like 12 and 13 year olds, like that's a bad thing. Like let's allow 12 and 13 year olds to act like 12 and 13 year olds without shame and feeling duty bound. And it sounds like his wife was even maybe embracing that. And then I'm wondering who was it that told them that they misbehaved or did they really come to that conclusion on their own? There were just so many things psychologically and developmentally that didn't feel quite right about that for me.
John Dehlin [01:50:18] Love it. Well, I'll tell you what my reaction was. I thought you were going to take it in a totally different direction. For me, the headline would be, Mormon Apostle Dale G. Renlund calls out Mormon prophet and President Dallin H. Oaks as not being a real man.
John Dehlin [01:50:36] Because as we all know, Mormon prophet and President Dallin H. Oaks is on record saying that the church and its leadership neither seek nor offer apologies. And for those who don't know what I'm talking about, first of all, let me read again what Dale Renlund says.
John Dehlin [01:50:56] He writes, real men are accountable for their actions, acknowledge their mistakes, apologize, and try to set things right. I'm not making that up. Right. That's what he's saying there. Now let's read what Dallin H. Oaks says about apologies.
John Dehlin [01:51:18] Oh my goodness. For some reason that's coming across in Spanish. Let me change the audio track to English and let me play that again.
Megan [01:51:29] In a Tribune story that we published on Tuesday, Elder Oaks, you were quoted as saying that the church doesn't seek apologies and we don't give them. And of course, this sparked a whole storm on social media about those who wonder how this view comports with Christian theology. Again, wanted to give you an opportunity
Guest 2 [01:51:48] to respond to that. I'm not aware that the word apology appears anywhere in the scriptures, Bible or Book of Mormon. The word apology contains a lot of connotations in it and a lot of significance. We do not seek apologies. When our temple was desecrated in California, when people were fired and intimidated, when a lot of other coercive measures were used, we sought no apology. That's what I meant by saying we don't seek apology. We think that the best way to solve these problems is not a formal statement of words that apology consists of.
John Dehlin [01:52:30] And you see Christopherson just smiling there. And what he means by smiling is stop talking. You're embarrassing yourself in the church. But anyway, Redland calls out Oakes as not being a real man. That's my headline. Megan.
Megan [01:52:47] I love it. John. That's why we work so well together. We just highlight different parts of the post. But now someone needs to make a short about that.
John Dehlin [01:52:56] Well, leave it to Analyzing Mormonism. All right, let's, let's hit these last stories real quick. Megan.
Missionary Airport Greetings Cause Disruption
Megan [01:53:02] Okay, these last two are related. So this I saw on X just recently. It looks like it was posted on August 26th. The complete and utter disregard of people greeting returned Mormon missionaries at the Salt Lake City Airport has become the exhausting airport exit. I dread. Instead of using their giant provided greeting room, they choose to block the narrow path of passengers exiting security. Because why?
John Dehlin [01:53:26] And they're referring to all the families and ward members and throngs that wait outside the security gate at the Salt Lake airport for missionaries when they're coming home. Again, I'm not a humbug on this one. I think it's a beautiful, touching part of Mormonism that Mormon missionaries are greeted and celebrated when they get home. But I also understand why people might find it annoying. What are your thoughts on it? Megan?
Megan [01:53:50] Well, they remodeled the entire Salt Lake City airport and put in a space specifically for these greetings, and people don't use it. They still go out and block the hallway. And I think that's what they're complaining about. And I've flown into Salt Lake numerous times in the past year and I've seen it and it's hard to to get through. And there are all these banners and there's this whole room off to the side where they should be.
Guest [01:54:10] They don't.
Megan [01:54:11] They go in there to wait. But then when they actually do the greeting, they come out and then there's a huge throng of people. So I can see why people would get annoyed with that if they're just trying to get to where they're going.
John Dehlin [01:54:22] Sure, that's fair. All right, let's play this last clip because we're almost out of time.
▶ Video Clip 3Video Clip 3 [01:54:26] All right, go for it. Goodbye. At the Salt Lake Airport could look a little different. Today, the TSA introduced Gateside by TSA PreCheck. Basically, what it means is pre check members can walk all the way to the gate. Besides that, the TSA says members could also go to the airport to dine or shop.
Video Clip 3 [01:54:45] Basically go along with your loved one to the gate. Salt Lake City's airport is one of
Video Clip 3 [01:54:49] 14 locations selected for this program.
John Dehlin [01:54:53] Whoa. What does that mean?
Megan [01:54:55] So I think that means if they're part of TSA PreCheck now, they can go all the way to the gate. So now these throngs of people are going to go through TSA PreCheck, which I think. Isn't that a paid service? Yeah, I believe it's a paid service. And then they'll be able to. Then this huge mass of people are going to be waiting. Right. When you get off the old enough
John Dehlin [01:55:14] to remember before 9, 11, before 2001, family members could just go to the gate and see people off. And that. That hasn't been an option for 25 years. That's how old I am. But I remember when you could, you could see your loved one off at the gate. And it looks like now you can. That's. I think that's pretty cool, actually.
Megan [01:55:34] Yeah, I was surprised because I do remember seeing my older brothers. We went all the way to the gate to see them off on their missions.
John Dehlin [01:55:41] Yeah. Well, that's fascinating. Well, we've got four minutes to spare. I'm just going to share one story that I thought was interesting that, that I think is kind of maybe also worth sharing. And it's back to Spencer W. Cox.
Closing Thoughts and How to Support the Show
John Dehlin [01:55:59] Last week there was a little, I guess he's coming out with a book and, and in his book, he talks about, I think he talks about death threats that he received when he endorsed Trump. So, you know, a lot of people really like Spencer Cox when he was voted governor because he was seemingly progress, even though he's Republican, he seemed to be pro lgbt. And then he kind of seemed to backtrack on his LGBT support, including endorsing Trump. And he writes that after Trump was shot in the ear, after, you know, Trump ran again, that, that Cox, that Cox endorsed Trump and received a lot of hate from it and even experienced death threats.
John Dehlin [01:56:53] So I don't, I don't endorse death threats. We don't get political. But I think that might be an interesting thing to cover in a future episode about Cox. The Cox's. The response he got from that. Anyway, Megan, we're almost out of time.
John Dehlin [01:57:08] I'll just. Any closing words you want to share for today's episode? And also, how can people follow and support you and what you do? Megan, besides donating to this podcast, how can people support you?
Megan [01:57:21] So final words. Love is love. I think that's where we started and where we'll, you know, want to end. And you can find me at generally unquotable. My main platforms are Patreon and YouTube, but I'm also on TikTok, Instagram and Facebook and Spotify.
John Dehlin [01:57:40] Thanks for all you do. You do great work, Megan, and people like us as a team, so I'm glad we're able to work together. You bring great things to our show. If you want to donate to this specific program, go to mormonnews.com and become a monthly donor. That'll let us know you value this program. Also, MormonNews.com is an aggregator where we aggregate the day's most current news in news. And I'm really happy with that website. Check it out and share it. Please like and subscribe here as well as on general, unquotable, and everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, et cetera. I want to thank Julia for her great work, Brooklyn Trevor for his moderating of the comments, the Mormon Stories board, Open Stories foundation board, and everyone who supports us, especially our donors. We couldn't do this without our donors. Thanks again, Megan. You're the best.
Megan [01:58:33] Thanks, John. This was fun.
John Dehlin [01:58:34] And thanks to all our viewers and listeners who support us on the Mormon News podcast and on Mormon Mormon Stories Podcast. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and love is love. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Mormon News Podcast. Take care, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
One Response
I have to wonder if these internet bullies apply the same hatred toward ALL parents who bring kids into non-traditional homes. I.E. Unmarried parents, single parents, etc. And do they go after single parents whose court filings reduce the parental rights of their former partners?
There are so many situations where kids grow up in a home where parents of both sexes are NOT represented, besides lgbtqia.
Or is the vitriol only directed toward lgbtqia parents? Something tells me yes. Repugnant.