Introducing Brinley Jensen and Her Intentions

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1680

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today we are super excited to interview Brynlee Jensen. Hey, Brynlee.

Brinley Jensen [00:00:10] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Over the past several years, as millennial and Gen Z Mormons are starting to question their faith and or leave the church. One of the topics that we've been really interested in covering is what's it like to be raised as a believing orthodox Mormon, sometimes in Utah in kind of the 2000 and twenties. And then also what's it like to serve a mission in the 2000 and 20s right now during this time, either Covid or post Covid, when so many people are, you know, especially so many young people are actually leaving the church. Well, I learned about Brinley on Instagram because Brynlee was raised Mormon. She was raised learning about things like Mormon Stories podcast, learning to fear the these sorts of quote, anti Mormon elements of social media. She entered the mission field as a believing Mormon and started to experience doubts and to question her testimony and maybe even have sort of a bit of a feminist awakening while she was serving as a missionary. Is that right, Brynlee?

Brinley Jensen [00:01:13] Yes, definitely. Yeah, it was an interesting experience for sure.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] And so, you know, we're going to be covering many themes today. We going to be covering what it's like to be raised in the Mormon Church as a teenager in the modern era, you know, within the past few years, what's it like to serve a mission and to start having serious doubts or questions on your mission. We'll find out whether Brynlee leaves her mission early or not, whether she completes her mission after she experiences questions and doubts on her mission and then how she has navigated her doubts and questions since coming home from her mission. And how long ago did you leave the mission field?

Brinley Jensen [00:01:50] I got home a little over a year ago, so July 2021.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] So you've been home for a little over a year from your mission?

Brinley Jensen [00:01:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] And if it's okay to say your dad is currently a Mormon bishop. Is that right?

Brinley Jensen [00:02:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] So you come from an orthodox.

Brinley Jensen [00:02:06] Very orthodox, yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Okay, so that's what we're in store for today. Brinley, we're so grateful that you'd be willing to come share your story. How old are you right now?

Brinley Jensen [00:02:15] I'm 21.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Yeah. 21, yes. Okay. So, so welcome. Thank you for coming.

Brinley Jensen [00:02:19] Thank you. I'm excited to be here and I

John Dehlin [00:02:22] am so thrilled to have riding shotgun today as my co host, my brilliant partner in what I call truth and righteousness, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Brinley Jensen [00:02:31] Hey.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:32] There. I am so thrilled, John. I am so thrilled.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Yeah. Thanks for being here.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:36] Yeah, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] People love having you on the podcast, so I'm glad you're here.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:39] That's great to hear.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Yeah. You're going to be honest for at least the foreseeable future, at least once a week, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:45] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] Maybe only once a week, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:49] I think that's the plan.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] Margi's good on boundaries these days. Okay. Well, Margi, we're so glad to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:54] Great.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] Okay, so without any further ado, Brinley, let's dig in. But first, what I like to do is start off by having you share your intentions. Because especially if you've got orthodox believing family members or even a dad who's a bishop, it would be easy for believing Mormons to think that you want to cause harm or ill by coming on Mormon Stories podcast. So without giving kind of your story away, would you like to begin by just sharing why you wanted to come on Mormon Stories podcast and what your intention is?

Brinley Jensen [00:03:24] Yes. Definitely isn't. Yes, I definitely have a lot of believing Mormons in my life that I love a lot and would never want to offend. But a big part of coming on this podcast for me is sharing my story. Because for me, hearing other people's stories on this podcast and on social media helped me not to feel so alone. And I think it's so important to be open minded to the different experiences that we all have navigating faith, especially in Utah for me, but all over the world.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Yeah, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:03] All the yeses to that.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:05] Absolutely. Okay, great. Well, that's a great disclaimer. And I think we're going to try and do this episode in one. In one part.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Because you're not 50 or 60.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:17] I don't have that many years to talk about. No.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Yeah. So maybe, you know, listeners and viewers, we're going to try and get this done in a single part.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] So, Brinley, maybe sometimes we start with kind of the parents, you know, as far as sort of your. Your parents. Mormon stories. People like to know. Were your parents converts? Were they pioneer ancestry? Talk a little bit about your parents and your ancestors and kind of your Mormon story that begins probably before you were born.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:43] Yeah, for sure. Both of my parents grew up in orthodox Mormon households. Probably just like mine. My grandparents are all members, very faithful temple marriages. My parents got married in the Salt Lake City Temple.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Do you know where they met?

Brinley Jensen [00:05:04] They met because my mom went to the temple and met my Dad's sister, and she set them up.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:14] So, wow. Very. Yeah. Very typical. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. That's how they met. Didn't date for very long. Knew that they were in love. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] And where were they growing up?

Brinley Jensen [00:05:31] My mom grew up in Riverdale, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Where's that?

Brinley Jensen [00:05:34] Yeah. Ogden area. Close to Ogden. Yeah. And my dad grew up in Hooper, Utah, also close to Ogden.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Hooper.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:41] Hooper.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] How do you spell Hooper?

Brinley Jensen [00:05:43] H O, O, P E, R. It's not Hooper.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] Hopper. H O, O, P, E. It's Hooper.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] So you're kind of Davis County.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:51] Your parents are like Weber County.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] Weber County Mormons.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] So for those who don't know, that's kind of 30 to 45 minutes north of Salt Lake City.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] On i15. Is that right?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] And it's traditionally viewed as, I don't know, pretty heavily Mormon.

Brinley Jensen [00:06:07] Oh, very, very. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] Yeah. It's not Salt Lake City, but Salt Lake City is probably less Mormon.

Brinley Jensen [00:06:13] Oh, I would say definitely where you grew up. Very Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Yeah. Okay, so. Okay, so your parents had a very Mormon upbringing. They got married quickly. Do you remember how young your parents were when they got married? Do you even know?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:24] I think my mom was 19, and my dad was 21, just off a mission. Okay, so 21, 22.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] So your dad did serve a mission.

Brinley Jensen [00:06:32] Yes, he did.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] Do you know where he served?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:34] Yeah, he served in Wisconsin. Green Bay, Wisconsin.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] All right. How many kids did your parents have total?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:40] Three.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] Three kids?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:42] And where are you in the birth order?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:43] I am the oldest.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] You're the oldest?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:45] Yes, I'm the oldest, and I have a brother who just turned 18 and a sister who's 14.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Okay. All right. So where does your Mormon story begin? What year were you born?

Growing Up Mormon in the 2000s

Brinley Jensen [00:06:56] I was born in 2001.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] 2001?

Brinley Jensen [00:06:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] So you were born four years before Mormon Stories podcast started? Yeah, born the year I had my faith crisis.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:04] Really? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:06] Wow.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:07] Who knew?

John Dehlin [00:07:07] I mean, for me, it was a long burn, but.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] Yeah. But in 2001 is where it really, really picked up steam for me. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] Okay, so 2001, tell us about your. Your Mormon upbringing as a child.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:24] What was that?

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Where were you born?

Brinley Jensen [00:07:25] Oh, I was born and raised Ogden, Utah. I was born at McKay. I've. The house that my parents live in now is the house I grew up in, and I had a typical Mormon upbringing. Prayers every night, reading scriptures. If you watch any of my family home videos, there's something about. What did you learn at church today?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:48] Or.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] What do you mean, your family home?

Brinley Jensen [00:07:50] Videos, like little video. Like old videos? Yeah. Home videos that you.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] You've shared on the Internet?

Brinley Jensen [00:07:56] Oh, no, no, no. I haven't shared them. They could be out there, I don't know. But just videos that my parents took of us growing up.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:08:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] You're doing family prayer and scripture study?

Brinley Jensen [00:08:05] Yes, all the time. And it was important to me, too. I always was. Very. I loved church and the church and the gospel. I love it.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Do you remember primary and what you liked about Primary?

Brinley Jensen [00:08:21] Yes. I was probably the one that was, like, sitting there reverently, folding my arms and listening. I was pretty quiet when I was a kid, but I loved all the songs. I loved to get up and share my testimony in church. I loved learning about all the Bible and Book of Mormon stories. All of it.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:08:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] And you were the oldest of three. Were there expectations as a young Mormon? Oldest girl of three?

Brinley Jensen [00:08:54] Yes. I mean, obviously regular expectations. Be respectful to your parents. But I grew up, like, I know my parents wanted me to do this, but I expected of myself from as long ago as I can remember to always say my nightly prayers, daily scripture study, think of Jesus in all things, that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:09:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Did you have a favorite primary song or favorite primary songs?

Brinley Jensen [00:09:24] Probably. I'm Trying to Be Like Jesus was my favorite one.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:09:28] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Trying to Be like Jesus.

Brinley Jensen [00:09:31] Yeah. I mean, good.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] I love the hymns. I still do.

Brinley Jensen [00:09:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:09:37] They're pretty catchy.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:40] Designed to be.

Brinley Jensen [00:09:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Oh, Margi, are you being a little cynical?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:45] No, not necessarily. I mean, just for. For kids to sing along.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:49] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Okay. Sorry. Okay. Okay. So. So anything happen in your family, your. Your family's life, kind of pre adolescence that is important for your story? Anything with your parents, anything with you, anything with your sibling? Or was it just kind of like a simple, idealistic Mormon childhood?

Perfectionism, Shame, and Purity Culture as a Teen

Brinley Jensen [00:10:14] Pretty simple. I mean, there were a few things. There was. When I was in sixth grade, my family went through a lot. My mom had a miscarriage where she lost more than half of the blood volume in her body. It was really bad. And I think that was a big faith, not necessarily turning point, because I already was pretty faithful even as a little kid. But I. I remember feeling like I relied on my faith heavily even at a young age when that happened. And in that same few months that that happened, my brother had a surgery that didn't go well, and he also lost a lot of blood, was in the hospital for a while. And so I think being so young and seeing all that pressure and stress put on my family, it really solidified. I relied on the church and the gospel and those teachings very heavily every second of every day, and that's how I was after that.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] So the family crisis brought your family even closer to the church than it

Brinley Jensen [00:11:15] was, I would say. And I think my family, like, it's almost like you can't even say they could get closer to the church because we were already so close. But for me personally, I think it strengthened my faith just to know that that's what I was relying on.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:30] So what I'm hearing you kind of say is it was during those times where, on a level, suffering reached you, it kind of came into your life in an unexpected way. It sounds like.

Brinley Jensen [00:11:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:42] Where you were able to kind of develop, lean on your own. You know, it kind of emerged. Your own sense of these things that you had been taught that you needed them then.

Brinley Jensen [00:11:55] Exactly. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:57] Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] Yeah. Okay. So going into your adolescent years, sounds like you were. You were. You know, your Mormon identity was maybe the most important part about you.

Brinley Jensen [00:12:09] Oh, definitely. I put pressure on myself a lot to be perfect. And any tiny thing I did that I didn't view as perfect would, like, fill me with sickening amounts of guilt.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Do you have examples?

Brinley Jensen [00:12:29] Yes, I do. I had a calendar, a tiny little calendar that I would check off if I read my scriptures and prayed every day. And I went years without missing a day. And, like, there was a night that I had been doing homework and I was so tired, and I fell asleep without praying or reading my scriptures. And it took me months to not feel guilty about that. Of reading Extra, I started reading. I'd say, okay, I have to read a few chapters of the Book of Mormon. Some of the Old Testament, some of the New Testament, some Doctrine and Covenants every day to make up for it. And so I remember feeling really guilty about that. And then just normal teenage things like having sexual feelings for boys or even, you know, understanding those feelings within myself, things like masturbation, things that every teenager goes through. But I feel like I just doubled down on myself about everything, just zoning in on the guilt, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] So what were those guilt thoughts like? How did they take shape in your brain?

Brinley Jensen [00:13:43] A lot of it was like I felt like everything I did was a step further away from being able to be with my family forever. And so that stressed me out a lot. And then a lot of it was like, no, I'll be with my family forever. Like, I'm baptized. I have my whole life plan. I'll go to the temple. But then even with things like, like masturbation, it's fine. I talk about that on here. Right. I was just like, I'll just have to hide that I ever did that until, like, Jesus comes again. Then I'll be like, please forgive me is kind of how I thought of it. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] Okay, so tell people. For those who really aren't familiar with Mormonism.

Brinley Jensen [00:14:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] What would the tie be between being with your family forever and masturbation? Kind of make in your mind, how did those things explain to a non Mormon? Half our audience is non Mormon. How those things all tie together?

Brinley Jensen [00:14:42] Well, I grew up with the For Strength of Youth pamphlet the church put out, which I read a lot.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:14:49] And the church has always been pretty clear on its views on anything relatively sexual that. That is only for. Between a man and a woman in marriage. Not for yourself. Like, not to be shared outside of marriage, especially with someone of the same gender. And so with that, I just kind of thought, like, I knew it was, in God's eyes, a really big sin. And I'd so often heard, like, if you have sex outside of marriage, like, that's comparable to murder. And I was like, how close am I to that? If that makes sense?

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Even if it's just with yourself.

Brinley Jensen [00:15:32] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] You feel like that that could have applied. And so if it becomes a really big sin. Mormons teach that families can be together forever. Take us through how that made you feel. Worried about your ability to be with your family forever.

Brinley Jensen [00:15:50] I definitely thought that I was the only member of my family who was making a mistake at all or, like, sinning. And so it's like, you can't let your whole family down because being with them for eternity, that's a pretty big deal. And so it's just that constant pressure of, I have to tell someone I did this, but that makes me very uncomfortable. And so I didn't want to, obviously. So I don't. I hope this answers the question, but I guess I just prayed a lot to God about all my mistakes in general, kind of begging to forgive me. Like, remember how I read my scriptures so much? Doesn't that make up for it? But that's not exactly. Like, when they teach repentance to kids, it's not just make sure you read your scriptures and he'll forgive everything else. It's. There's a process. You're supposed to feel guilt, which I did, and forsake your sin and confess and never sin again, which is just kind of an impossible process when you're A teenager. And there's billions of mistakes you can make every day.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] And specifically the one around repenting would involve you at what, 13, 14, 15, 16, some age, having to go to your bishop, a grown man, to confess what when you thought about needing to perform that step of repenting of these quote, sins.

Brinley Jensen [00:17:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] To a grown man in your home congregation, what was that thought like for you?

Brinley Jensen [00:17:34] It made me sick to my stomach.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Why?

Brinley Jensen [00:17:37] Because I didn't feel comfortable with that, which is why I didn't. And it made me feel like a liar as well, because I wasn't. But the bishop I had at the time, I remember other kids or teenagers in my ward saying like, well, I told him I did this and I got in so much trouble. And I was just like, yeah, I do not want to be a part of that. I don't want to get in trouble or have to explain in detail. That just scared me. I was shy in my early teens and so I just, I didn't feel comfortable with that at all. I didn't want to do it.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] So on the one hand, you want to be righteous and live with your family forever. On the other hand, you know you're committing this sin that's next to murder.

Brinley Jensen [00:18:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] But then on the other hand, you know that to be forgiven, you got to go talk to this 40, 50 year old man and tell him about your private sexual behavior behind closed doors, one on one. And you don't want to do that. So on the other hand, you're living with this guilt and shame of feeling like you're a liar and you're hiding things.

Brinley Jensen [00:18:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] And disobeying God. So all that pressure, what was that like for you as a teenage girl?

Brinley Jensen [00:18:53] I don't remember any part of junior high or high school where I wasn't feeling guilty about something. And I remember so specifically thinking as like a 14 year old girl relating to the sin of masturbation. Specifically, I was like, I wish that I was going to confess that I had sex with someone rather than the shame of me doing something by myself. Because I was like, I feel like that's more common is what I thought. And obviously a 14 year old girl like that, I think that's a very sad thought process to have, but that's how I felt. And I thought that all the time. I was like, if only that was my sin instead and I could go confess that, which would have probably been worse for me. But if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Because if someone else is involved, you have someone else to kind of take part of the blame.

Brinley Jensen [00:20:03] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] If it's just you, then it's all in you.

Brinley Jensen [00:20:06] Yeah, it's true.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:09] And I think maybe there's an inherent with women, particularly in the church, around purity.

Brinley Jensen [00:20:15] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:17] You know, there's a different standard there.

Brinley Jensen [00:20:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:20] That, you know, it's not widely supported, this idea of a woman owning her own sexuality, her own, you know, sexual desire. Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:20:30] Yeah. So I feel like.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:31] Do you feel like that was a layer, too?

Brinley Jensen [00:20:33] Oh, for sure. It reminds me of a time, I think it was my sophomore year in high school, we'd always have the purity lessons in church. And it was time for that lesson again. And our teacher posted pictures on the chalkboard of women in bikinis or with lots of piercings or tattoos and kind of talked about how they don't look as pure. And then she invited all the young men into the room to say how those pictures made them feel. And it was really awkward, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:11] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:21:12] And none of them wanted to say anything, obviously. But what she kind of concluded the lesson to was, like, if you want to make people uncomfortable, if you want to not have the spirit with you, then behave in this way. It was all about not only appearance, but how you act. She did talk about masturbation. She did talk about, don't think this way about boys either. And so I felt like so much of my identity was trying to be as pure as possible.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:40] Yes. Yes. It reminds me of just what is so, for me, one of the most insidious kind of byproducts of it is just how serious everything is.

Brinley Jensen [00:21:54] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:54] How you can be judged for your very thoughts. They can do you in. You're held responsible for thoughts you have. Every single decision can be grave. When your purity, when you're looking at sort of, you know, this perfectionistic, my purity is at stake, which determines, you know, it's just that mix, I think, as for a teen, especially, just trying to kind of develop and grow and understand yourself and understand yourself in the world. That is just so. So much.

Brinley Jensen [00:22:30] It's heavy, for sure. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] Is there a way for you to explain how that's harmful for you? So let's just say there are viewers or listeners out there that are like, hey, premarital sex, even if. Even if God doesn't care, you can get STIs, you can get unwed pregnancies. Some people think abortion's bad. And so it's like, hey, okay, the church is putting a lot of pressure on you to not have premarital sex.

Brinley Jensen [00:22:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] But maybe it would have been unhealthy for you to have premarital sex. So for the church to kind of try and tamp down your sexuality was probably for your good, even though it probably made you feel stressed sometimes. So, like, let's say somebody says, hey, maybe that wasn't so bad. Is. Would there be a way for you to communicate how it actually was harmful or was it?

Brinley Jensen [00:23:18] Yeah, for sure. I think that so often thinking back, I wish that instead of shaming that it was more educating because I understand there are parents and leaders that don't want their kids to do these things and I can respect that. But there are kids that are gonna do it anyways because there I was being so scared of these little things. And I had friends that, like, there were girls at my high school who did get pregnant and it was really scary for them and people that I was friends with, but if they would have been educated instead, especially in a setting where it's supposed to feel safe and you're with people that have similar beliefs as you, I think it could have had a way more positive outcome because I think it's taken me a long time to get past that shameful feeling. Like even how I dress, it's hard because all growing up you're told you have to dress a certain way to not provoke other people and act a certain way.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Let's talk more about that.

Brinley Jensen [00:24:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] So what do you mean? Provoke who? Dress. What ways should you not dress so that you don't provoke who?

Brinley Jensen [00:24:37] Men? Yeah, I mean, like, there's just so many lessons I can remember where I was specifically told, you need to keep the men of the church and of the world worthy and not let them think bad thoughts about you. So don't wear revealing clothes. Don't have low cut shirts or short shorts or skirts. Try not to wear tank tops. The tank tops was big

John Dehlin [00:25:11] even, like showing shoulders.

Brinley Jensen [00:25:12] Yes, shoulders, definitely. I remember a girl that wore a tank top to church once and everyone was, she was giving a talk and she wore a tank top dress. And she received a lot of backlash for it because it's like, oh, you're supposed to be up there sharing this Christ like message and instead you're provoking all the men in the audience. And so I think making a child so aware and conscious of how they're making other people think when it's really not. It wasn't my fault if someone thought something about me. It affected me well into my mission. Still now sometimes it's something I have to constantly, I have to retrain my thoughts around It. If that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:04] Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. This idea that you're kind of told how to show up in the world.

Brinley Jensen [00:26:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:10] How you're responsible for the actions of other people or the thoughts of other people, kind of their experience. I think it. I mean, let me ask this in a question. You know, did you feel like it set you up for this profound self, like, where you don't trust yourself? Because then what that's saying is in your humanness, when you're. You kind of evolve and you do have, you know, feelings or you. You do have developmentally appropriate kind of, you make mistakes. It makes you kind of feel a sense of unworthiness, a sense that you can't trust yourself, Right.

Brinley Jensen [00:26:49] Oh, definitely.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:52] You're innately lacking in something which then can make you be more hyper vigilant, you know, and double down.

Brinley Jensen [00:27:01] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:02] Did you notice, like a cycle of sorts with that where you felt this sense of like, okay, I'm. I'm not sure I made a mistake or I didn't show up optimally.

Brinley Jensen [00:27:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:13] And now I have this. Pay for it. Like, I'm bad or I'm. Or whatever. And now I have to make myself good. Was there ever, like, did you notice a cycle to that?

Brinley Jensen [00:27:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:23] And it costing you your relationship with yourself?

Brinley Jensen [00:27:26] Definitely. Definitely. I feel like I was so aware of how I was dressing and what I was thinking and how I was acting that there were even times where, like, in high school, my mom bought me a dress. And it. I mean, it was a tank top. It was. It was a modest dress. Like, it was. It went up high on my chest and it was long, but my shoulders barely showed. And I remember crying, thinking, like, why would you buy that for me to wear? Oh, sorry. Why would you buy that for me to wear? Like, it shows my shoulders. Don't you want me to wear garments one day? And she was like, bryn, it's fine. Like, it's just. It barely shows your shoulders. But even I couldn't even take my own mother's word that I wasn't dressing provocatively because I was so self aware of how I was acting. And then even when I started to kind of grow into my sexuality later in high school and wanted to wear things that I thought looked good on me, there was still that sense of guilt. And then if anyone made a comment about it, I'd never want to wear it again.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:35] Yeah. Let me ask you this. Can I ask you a question? Around growing up as a girl, a young woman in the church, what were some of the messages that you feel like. I feel like, you know, as young women, we're. We're given all sorts of messages. Right. Conditioning growing up that we're taught to kind of. Some things are overt and some things are a little bit more covert. Right. Or not obvious. What were some of the messages that you feel like you absorbed that stay with you kind of are in this moment as being particularly problematic for you? Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:29:17] I think it comes down to the ones that weren't as obvious, because all growing up, you hear like, the women of the church are so sweet and so perfect. Like, us men just will never measure up to you guys. And it sounds.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] What's wrong with that? That sounds great.

Brinley Jensen [00:29:40] I know, woman.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] That sounds great.

Brinley Jensen [00:29:42] I know. It does sound great. It makes you feel like, oh, I don't have to do anything. I'm just perfect by nature. But then it just puts this pressure of, well, if I'm making these mistakes.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Like what?

Brinley Jensen [00:29:56] Like dressing immodestly or having impure thoughts or swearing or masturbating or any of these things that you're told not to do or doubting, then you're not living up to that expectation of being a perfect woman. And I often felt deep down when they were saying all these nice things about women was that, you know, they're giving. They couldn't give the priesthood to women. They couldn't give big leadership roles. And so instead they were giving that sense of, well, you're so perfect. You have these motherly roles, you're innately nurturing. And sometimes I didn't feel innately nurturing or sweet. A lot of times I didn't. But you have to act the part.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] It also seems like there's. Tell me if. If you agree that there's this implication that if how you dress or how you act can lead to a young man becoming sexually active and maybe even not going on a mission.

Brinley Jensen [00:31:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] That somehow you. You have a bigger response. And then let's just say you are sexually active with a young man, that somehow there's more of a guilt or a burden on you than on the young man, because you started it by showing your shoulders or your knees.

Brinley Jensen [00:31:19] Yeah, that was my yes. Yeah, that was definitely one of my biggest fears, and probably because I saw it happening all around me. Like I was in a friend group where everyone would end up dating each other in high school. And so you'd hear about a lot of that. And I was terrified of that. I didn't want to be the cause of anyone acting that way or thinking Impurely, just because like, I saw it happening around me. And it wasn't that I was judging those people, but I just. It just made me feel guilty about every little thing I ever did.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] So did perfectionism have a toll on you in your teenage years? And if so, what was the toll?

Brinley Jensen [00:32:08] Yes. I mean, perfectionism took a toll on me in every part of my life, but especially in the church. I was always like, my seminary teachers loved me. I became a lot more outgoing in high school and you know, they would talk to my parents and just be like, Brynlee is so outstanding. She always has something important to say. She's such a good example. I would get asked to go around to different stakes and sing or give talks in seminary or all those. They just gave me lots of opportunities to be an example. And with everyone constantly speaking so highly of me and saying there was such a light about me, I. It felt good because I felt like I was succeeding at being perfect. But then nothing was ever enough, so I had to keep being more perfect. Hence the keeping the scripture calendar and journaling about how like I'd write notes to my future self on why I should never ever doubt in case I started to not believe in certain aspects of the church. It was constantly just preparing and being one step ahead of myself. Just trying to be as perfect as possible.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:28] Yeah, it kind of puts you in that hyper vigilant mode.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Yeah, yeah, I guess that's stressful, if nothing else.

Brinley Jensen [00:33:36] Yes, it was stressful.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:38] It's also self betraying. I think it's also self betraying because it disconnects you from yourself while connecting you to what other people see in you. So you have this, you know, the. When we talk about all the, you know, dress standards or you taking responsibility, having to hold responsibility for other people's experience and behavior or feelings towards you, that's deeply problematic moving forward in. In relationships with others. But let's set that aside and also just talk about the preoccupation with body in a really disconnected way. Women and their bodies. I think there's so much like there's a standard there, an ideal there. And so this preoccupation of like, am I like trying to manage this thing that you feel kind of a sense of shame about?

Brinley Jensen [00:34:34] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:34] And a disconnection to. And then if we go on the inside, it's what's the problem with being talked about as sweet or like, you know, pure and inspiring to men or there to sort of remind them of all that is good is that we're whole human Beings. And we feel like all sorts of things just like, you know, men do or non binary or, you know, however we want to talk about it. Like as human beings we feel all things. Yeah, but when you're reinforced for just one way of showing up, then ultimately what happens is to get the love and approval is you start. You start not showing up as a full human. You start trying to show up in a way that gets you the love and approval. And so you betray other parts of yourself or keep them in the dark and only let the parts that you get love for and that you feel seen and valued for show up. And that path is just. That is a. You know, the cost is high for that.

Brinley Jensen [00:35:40] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] Okay. Okay. So what were you into in high school? What were your interests or pursuits?

High School Faith, Testimony, and Patriarchal Blessing

Brinley Jensen [00:35:51] I loved to have fun. That's the first thing I think of. I love to be with my friends. I loved to sing and play piano. I've played piano ever since I was like four or five. And yeah, I love to be outside, go on vacation with my family, just be with my friends. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] Were you part of any clubs or special interest groups in high school?

Brinley Jensen [00:36:19] No, not in high school. Yeah, I mostly just had fun with my friends.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Were you into academics or. Not so much.

Brinley Jensen [00:36:28] Yeah, I mean, I was. I was always in high honors. I took lots of college classes, which added to the stress.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] What is high honors?

Brinley Jensen [00:36:37] Oh, it's like. I don't know if that was just for my Weber or my school district or not, but just when you take all of the needed classes and then get a 4.0 in the classes.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Okay, so you were getting great grades?

Brinley Jensen [00:36:54] Yes, I was. Until my senior year. I struggled a little bit because of all the college classes I forced myself to take, but I still got decent grades.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:37:04] I shouldn't be as hard on myself. They were good. They were good grades, but they weren't A pluses.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] Right. Well, what was your testimony like in high school?

Brinley Jensen [00:37:16] Very strong. I. I mean, I always had those little doubts that creep in, just like everyone, I think. But I had a really strong testimony. I loved seminary. I loved church. Church was probably my favorite part of the week. I was one to always share what I was feeling. I was probably.

John Dehlin [00:37:44] You heard your testimony a lot?

Brinley Jensen [00:37:45] Yes, I did. I was probably the one that would cry while talking about my beliefs, but very strong. Very much wanted to go on a mission. Yeah. Typical strong Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] Had you prayed about like the Book of Mormon or the church to ask God to send you the Holy Ghost to let you know if it was true. Like, what was your testimony built of in those high school years?

Brinley Jensen [00:38:11] Yeah, I think my testimony was built on. I feel like the church was my security blanket because it gave me an answer to everything. And I got my patriarchal blessing in high school, which was. I think that's what held my. That's what really held my testimony together because of how personal I felt it was to me.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] What types of things did your. So for those who don't know, patriarchal blessing is where this older man in your community anointed by the church. It's almost like a tarot card reading. But a Mormon version of a tarot card reading.

Brinley Jensen [00:38:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Where he basically tells you your future. Yeah. And makes promises and gives you guidelines. So what did you. And then it's written down and you're asked to save it and keep it in your scriptures as like additional scripture to kind of tell you if you're righteous, all the good things that are going to happen to you. So what did your patriarchal blessing say that was meaningful to you?

Brinley Jensen [00:39:11] My patriarchal blessing made me feel untouchable, unstoppable. It told me that I would not die young, that I would live a long life, and that no significant harm, accident, illness would ever come upon me.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:25] Wow.

Brinley Jensen [00:39:26] So in my mind I was like, I can do anything and nothing bad will happen to me. I mean, I wasn't careless because it still told me, like, it's conditional upon my faith, but it told me that I needed to marry a righteous man with a priesthood in the temple that I was a big part of. You know, I was going to be a big part of the morning of the first resurrection.

John Dehlin [00:39:56] What does that mean for non Mormon? What does that mean?

Brinley Jensen [00:39:59] That means, you know, honestly, I still to this day, a little confused about it.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] So I think what it means. Mine says the same thing and it basically means that when Jesus comes again. The second coming of Jesus.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] And he does the resurrection where he lifts up all the dead.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] The. He's going to bring. He's going to resurrect the most righteous people first, which means they're going to go to the celestial kingdom and become God someday. Living with God and all their family, righteous Mormon family members in the celestial kingdom. So it's basically a promise. You're going to be among Jesus's elite humans and the billions of humans who've ever lived. You're going to be one of the elite people resurrected as soon as Jesus comes back to live in the celestial kingdom and become a God.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:42] Yes, definitely. And I mean it was just very like, God knows about your mistakes and he still loves you. Which, yes, that helped me a lot, but I still felt guilty. But when I first got the blessing, I was like, yes, and you.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Then you messed up again.

Brinley Jensen [00:41:04] Yeah, exactly. I was like, well, I ruined it. But, yeah, just. It told me I needed to be a missionary. It told me God would call me to a place I needed to go. It told me I would have success in pursuing my higher education and that I'd get to travel the world in doing that. Which, right before my blessing, I had told the patriarch I wanted to go to BYU Hawaii. And so when I got. When I heard that, I was like, yes, I'm going to BYU Hawaii. And, yeah, it was just. It was everything I wanted to hear.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Yeah. Yeah. Patriarchal blessings are so interesting because on the one hand, they can be so inspiring to a kid. It's like, I'm going to be protected and God loves me and I'm forgiven for my sins. And look at all these cool things I'm going to do. In that sense, it can be so inspiring. But there are a couple other interesting things about it. Number one is if anything doesn't come true, like if he gets sick or get hurt or die early, it can always be explained. Well, you weren't faithful enough. So there's always. The church always has kind of a loophole.

Brinley Jensen [00:42:19] There's always something if.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] If something. If some prophecy doesn't come true. But also, they interview you beforehand. So a lot of the prophecies that they give in the patriarchal blessing can be reflected in things the patriarch already knows about you, or literally things you tell the patriarch right before he gives you the blessing. So that's kind of interesting. So it can be like, hey, if you stay faithful in the church, you get all these things you want and God said. So it's a way to kind of really seal your commitment to the church, I think.

Brinley Jensen [00:42:51] Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] But then the. But then the final thing that's interesting is in normal circumstances, you're never told. You won't serve a mission. You're going to become a professional career woman and not get married and not have babies. Like, yeah, it's pretty much you're always going to be told that the things are going to happen to you are the things that the church wants you to do.

Brinley Jensen [00:43:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] And in that sense, it can be viewed as coercive or undue influence because it's basically the church under the guise of predicting your future through God's prophecy and revelatory power. It's basically the church telling you how you're supposed to live your life in ways that benefit the church.

Brinley Jensen [00:43:29] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Is that wrong? Is that right?

Brinley Jensen [00:43:31] No, that's right. If I were to follow every word that my patriarchal blessing said, then it'd be exactly what the church wants. I mean, it was all about missionary work and bringing others into the light and being an example, all those things that I was already putting pressure on myself to do. But it kind of solidified that not only was that something God saw as good, that was my purpose for my entire life.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Yeah. So like Margi said, around self betrayal, you don't get to decide what your intrinsic inherent purpose or meaning is. You're. You're. You're told at 16 or 17 what it is, and you'd never get to make that choice. Margi, we're gonna.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:11] Oh, just nodding. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Yeah. So. But. But at the time you received it, it was a beautiful, wonderful thing.

Brinley Jensen [00:44:18] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:20] In the moment.

Brinley Jensen [00:44:20] In the moment. It was a miracle.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:23] I was going to ask you really quickly. During those years of just feeling tremendous pressure and shame, did you have times or moments where you felt free of that? Were you on a level you. I don't know. You know, what that would look like for you? If it was, like, with friends or in nature or, you know, I don't know. Or was it, like, something that you really walked with pretty much all the time?

Brinley Jensen [00:44:55] I really walked with it. And there was one time where I kind of talked to my parents about it, and this was before my dad was the bishop, and they were very reaffirming. I didn't give them lots of detail, but, I mean, obviously your parents probably don't want to get into too much detail about that anyways, but they were very. They did give me a lot of peace. And they weren't shameful. They didn't shame me about it. And I felt relief until I made mistakes again. And you were human again. Yeah, until I was human again. Then everything sinks back in, and that's really the only time I can remember. And I still felt peace at church and felt big emotions about the things that they would talk about. And I enjoyed the lessons. I enjoyed going, and I still felt, like, amounts of joy there. But when I was alone with my thoughts or when I'd be in seminary and a teacher would say something about really any mistake a teenager could make, I took it personally. And I assumed, like, I'm the only person in this room that has ever thought this mean thought or that has ever been impure in this way. So I still, I wouldn't say had a horrible childhood. Like, I still loved my life and I had fun, but there was just that guilt with me through all of that.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] Okay, so anything else that's important to your faith journey or your personal story or your family story prior to, let's just say mission. So let's just say up through graduating, what high school did you graduate?

Brinley Jensen [00:46:59] I went to Fremont High School.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] Fremont High School, yeah. And he graduated what year?

Brinley Jensen [00:47:03] 2019.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Okay, 2019. That's only three years ago.

Brinley Jensen [00:47:06] I know.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] That's crazy.

Brinley Jensen [00:47:08] It is crazy.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Okay, I have a question. So during that whole time of going to high school in Utah in the late 2000, teens, had you ever heard about the CES letter? Had you ever heard about Mormon Stories podcast? Had you ever heard about other podcasts or even doubts or questions about the church? Had you heard of the Gospel topics essays? Had you been exposed? And this isn't to be self referential. This is because I'm wanting, I'm always stunned at how even 50 and 60 year olds just now are learning about things that have been around for 50 years or in this, in the case of the Internet, you know, 10 or 20 years. So, like, I'm curious whether you had had exposure to any of that stuff and if so, or even doubts or questions about the church, and if so, what you had exposure to and what you thought of the things you had had exposure to.

Brinley Jensen [00:48:00] Yeah, so I did not know about the CES letter. I didn't know. I really didn't know anything. The one thing I remember hearing about was that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, which obviously was a shock to me. I'd never heard about that. And I asked my mom about it and she just kind of had typical answer for a believing Mormon, which was what if you remember, it's uncomfortable, but we just have to have faith. We don't know everything about history. There's too much to cover in church lessons all the time, but we just have to have faith. That's what God needed him to do. At that time, that was the only kind of taboo topic I'd ever heard of until my mission. And even then, like, there were sometimes doubts, but I always came back even stronger with my faith. Like I would literally just journal about all the reasons why I knew the church was true and how there's no way it could be false. And I was honestly pretty judgmental towards people that I'd heard of that left the church because it's like, why would you? There's no real reason to do that.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Okay. Wow. So you'd never heard of the CES letter prior to 2019? No.

Brinley Jensen [00:49:21] I'd come across what the church would call anti material once on Instagram, but I just wasn't sure what it was.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] What. Do you remember what it was?

Brinley Jensen [00:49:30] Not really. It was called. It was some lady. She didn't show her face. She was just making, like, memes and pictures, and I was like, what is this? And it was talking about Adam and Eve, and I, like, showed it to my mom, and she was like, never look at that again. And so I just took her word for it, and I was like, okay, I'll never look at it again.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] Okay. Okay. So what did you think about Joseph Smith prior to your mission?

Brinley Jensen [00:49:58] I thought he was a great guy. I mean, I believed in the fact the church always says, like, either Joseph Smith did this, or it's a fraud. Like, either it's true or it's not. They use that. I mean, I said that on the mission multiple times. It's in Preach My Gospel, the pamphlets they give to missionaries to teach with, I believed in that 100% that I knew he was imperfect, but the narrative around him that I knew of was he was persecuted. He went through so much, and he still came out on the other side. And there's no way that someone would be able to go through what he went through and still produce what he did and have the church have so many people now and all of that. So I had complete faith in Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] What about the Book of Mormon?

Brinley Jensen [00:50:51] Same thing. I. By the time I went on my mission, I had read the Book of Mormon cover to cover, like, three to five times.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] And what did you think the book was?

Brinley Jensen [00:51:02] I mean, absolute history. I believed everything in it. Everything.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:51:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] And so what was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to you?

Brinley Jensen [00:51:16] The only true church on the earth. Like, I believed everything the church teaches, I agreed with a hundred percent.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:26] You're. I. I think it's so. It just shows your level of devotion and to be writing letters to, like, your future self in case you ever have doubts.

Brinley Jensen [00:51:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:42] Really?

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:51:43] It's true.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:45] I have a quick question.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Can I finish just a couple things. Remember your question?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Okay. I just. I was going through just a little list. What did you think about LGBTQ people? Was that. Was that?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] What were you gonna say? Go ahead,

Margi Dehlin [00:51:59] we're insane.

Brinley Jensen [00:52:00] The same wavelength you ask it. That was.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:02] That was the question. You do it just. If you had Any experiences growing up knowing, loving, being familiar with LGBTQIA youth, or. And. And what your thoughts were for them within kind of being in the box of Mormonism?

Brinley Jensen [00:52:24] Yeah, that one was hard for me. And I feel like I tried to avoid thinking about it because it's a heavy topic when you believe everything the church teaches. And the church teaches that they can't be together if they want to be real, true members of the church. And I remember thinking, like, well, I understand, like, some people are born with that. And I was like, maybe some people just decide they want to do that. And I remember thinking, like, I don't really understand trans people. Like, I just didn't understand. And I regret to say I didn't try to understand, but I still. Like, I had a friend that was gay and I loved him, but we just didn't talk about that. And like, I. I would have said for myself at the time that I didn't hold any judgment or ill feelings, but the way I feel towards that community now is obviously so much different. So, I mean, I felt like I wasn't judging.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] How did you feel at the time about the fact that women within Mormonism didn't have the priesthood and, you know, there was no women in top leadership positions of the church? There's the issue of just the word feminism and whether you would have identified as a feminist. Talk about women's issues and how you felt prior to your mission about, yeah, women's issues in feminism.

Brinley Jensen [00:53:55] I remember coming across. There's literally an account on Instagram called, like, feminist. And I came across it, and I, like, it gave me the same feeling as when I came across anti Mormon content. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, what is this? But then I had a teacher in high school, and I knew she was a member of the church, and she is a very inspirational person. And I remember in class she said, I'm a feminist, so if anyone has something sexist to say, don't say it in my class. And I was like, she's a feminist. And I started, like, looking more into it, and it would honestly cause arguments with, like, people around me, because I'd be like, well, why? And I was thinking more, like, in the world, not in the church. Like, what about equal pay and what about abortion? Because I was like, I would never. And, like, I think that's evil, but why can't she do it if she wants to? And so the wheels were turning, and I started to realize some of those things in the church, like, when there were the whole protests about women in the priesthood. I remember being like, those women are crazy. Like.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] Like ordained women.

Brinley Jensen [00:55:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] In 2015.

Brinley Jensen [00:55:07] 2015, yes, exactly. I was like, those women are crazy. Like, what are they doing? But I think the wheels were turning. It just wasn't all the way there yet. I was definitely curious about it. And I was like, I'm. I think I'm a feminist. That's how I thought about it.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:28] I'm curious, for you, when it came to kind of the formula of were you taught that you should stay home and kind of have children? Is that something, a message or an expectation that you received?

Brinley Jensen [00:55:44] Yeah, I would say definitely. Having kids, like, that's not even a question. It's like, you get married, you have kids fast as you can, and preferably lots of kids. It was never like, no one ever specifically said, like, you cannot have a career. But it was also like, you have to make sure that your career allows you to also be with your kids, too. So it was like, maybe you should be a teacher so that when they're in school, you're in school, and then you have the summers off together. Like, it was always like, just be a teacher or a nurse so that you know how to take care of your kids.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:20] Got it.

Brinley Jensen [00:56:21] So that was kind of the narrative I received.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:23] And did you ever. You know, let's just say we'll stay with the narrative up to this point. Were you feeling quite. Let's just say, like, it was in line with you to have lots of kids. Did you experience any inner resistance around. Well, or individuation? Like, I'm not sure I'm going to have four kids. Maybe I'll have two or. What was your experience with those types of expectations of a role?

Brinley Jensen [00:56:52] I'm going to be honest, I hoped that Jesus would come before I'd have to have kids.

John Dehlin [00:56:58] Why?

Brinley Jensen [00:56:59] Because I. Ever since I was little, like, I just have been so scared of giving birth, the whole thing. But it was just like, okay, my plan was, if Jesus doesn't come first, then I'll just have to, like, push through it. Maybe I'll just adopt so I don't have to give birth.

John Dehlin [00:57:18] Yeah, that would have been tied to your mom's miscarriage, I'm guessing.

Brinley Jensen [00:57:22] Yeah, a little bit. And even before then, I was scared, but just seeing, like, I never wanted to go through what she went through. And yeah, I think. I mean, I did want kids. I love kids. Like, I'm a nanny right now. But it definitely scared me. And I truly often thought, like, maybe Jesus will just. Maybe the second coming will happen before. Yeah, I genuinely thought that all the time.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:49] Yeah.

Envisioning a Mormon Future and Pre-Mission Life

John Dehlin [00:57:50] So how did you envision your life going post high school? Like, if you had to say, what were the milestones, the Mormon milestones did you envision for yourself? You know, and how soon?

Brinley Jensen [00:58:02] I envisioned I'd go on a mission, complete the 18 months, come home, go to BYU, Hawaii and meet another returned missionary, get married per.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] Be a guy.

Brinley Jensen [00:58:18] Yeah, yes, yes, definitely get married to a worthy priesthood holder, and then have three kids, you know, go through the temple, raise them in the church, make sure everything's perfect so that we're all together forever. That was pretty basic. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] And the cycle would continue.

Brinley Jensen [00:58:43] Yes, and the cycle would continue.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:58:45] But I. I don't. I feel like there was always this idea I heard from leaders around me and from other members I knew that, like. Like, Jesus is coming. So sometimes I was like, maybe my kids won't grow old and have kids. Like, I really. Until a year ago, I didn't imagine myself growing old because so many members would be like, well, my patriarchal blessing says that Jesus comes during my lifetime. And I'm like, well, you're older than me, so. Yeah, I didn't imagine myself growing old.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:22] Wow. Did you have that at all, John?

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Oh, yeah. I mean, when I was growing up, there was this musical called Saturday's Warrior that you probably heard of. But the whole idea of Saturday's Warrior is Jesus comes on Sunday. It's the evening of Saturday. It's the last days church of Jesus Christ the Latter Day Saints.

Brinley Jensen [00:59:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] And Jesus is coming any day now. And you. I'm 53. You. When I'm 16, 17 in 1986. 87. You're the chosen generation to usher in the return of Jesus.

Brinley Jensen [00:59:54] That's why I was the chosen generation.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:57] I was just. I didn't realize. I mean, it makes sense, but I didn't realize that message was still.

Brinley Jensen [01:00:02] Yeah. I mean, so many people. And I don't know if other people my age in the church felt that

John Dehlin [01:00:08] way, but of course, it's.

Brinley Jensen [01:00:09] It's been.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] They've been. The church had been teaching its youth that since the 1830s.

Brinley Jensen [01:00:14] Yeah. So I, like, it's still hard for me to think about me growing old and dying. I'm like, I guess that's really going to happen.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:22] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] I'm surprised you're surprised by that, Margi. So that wasn't part of your Mormon upbringing?

Margi Dehlin [01:00:29] I think that might have been more conceptual, like an idea to me. But no, definitely not to the point that it's interrupting kind of my lifespan.

John Dehlin [01:00:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:43] In a. In a way.

Brinley Jensen [01:00:45] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] That's honestly partly why I married you, because I was so. I had been so intense and orthodox and wrapped up about the church. I didn't think it'd be good to marry someone who was that intense and wrapped up about the church. So I even had a sense that you had not internalized orthodox fundamentalist Mormonism as much as many people had. And I saw that as a good thing because I. I think I knew at some level I'd be losing my faith, or at least I would be liberal, and I wanted a spouse that could be flexible. So I. I'm actually grateful you never reached that level.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:20] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:21] But it makes. It is something to hear you kind of say on a level that kind of hoping for Jesus to come to relieve you from this sense of obligation with your role, to have to. To basically do something with your body that you would not openly choose to do.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:44] That's really something.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:45] It is. It is.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] In the field of psychology, we call that ego dystonic. In other words, it's something that you don't want necessarily, and you're aware that you don't want it. So at some level, you're aware you don't want to live the. You might not want to either afraid of, or you don't want to necessarily live the life the church has given for you, and you're hoping that Jesus is going to save you from that.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:10] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Wow. Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Okay. And why didn't you. Other than, like, fearing childbirth, were there other reasons why you didn't. You felt like you might not want the Mormon life, the Mormon life for women? Did you feel like the church wanted you to pursue.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:26] No. I think that was at the time, like, the church was still everything to me. And so my thought process was I'm just really scared to give birth.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:35] Like, deathly afraid. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:38] Yeah. You're not alone in that.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] Yeah. Okay. So what happened? So, I mean, did you go to. Did you go to college first or did you go straight?

Brinley Jensen [01:02:49] No. So I worked for about a year after my mission or after graduating high school. And January of 2020, I got my mission call to Orlando, Florida. I was so excited. I love tropical climate. So I was like, this is the best. I get to be by the beach. And then everything happened with COVID I was working two jobs, actually, and both my jobs had to close down, and suddenly I wasn't busy, and I kind of. I don't know if I had recognized Feelings of anxiety and depression a lot before I know they were there for a long time, not just because of COVID but it kind of brought everything out of the dark. And I really, really struggled with anxiety and depression.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] This is before even entering the mtc.

Brinley Jensen [01:03:47] Yeah, before going out. And about a month before I was supposed to start online mtc, I just. I would pace my room like every night till three in the morning, just panicking. Not about necessarily going on a mission, but just, why do I feel like this? I want to go on a mission. How am I going to survive out there feeling like this? And I remember going to my parents room at like three in the morning and just being like, something's wrong in my brain. Like, I've been praying and praying to make it go away. And my mom was like, no, no, no, you can't pray. My mom's a nurse and she is a really big mental health advocate, which I'm very grateful for. But she said to me, like, you can't pray to make anxiety and depression go away. Like, we need to get you help. And my parents said, if you don't want to go on a mission, like, we'll support you, you do not have to go. And I was like, no, I want to go. Like, this is a goal I made for myself. My patriarchal blessing says I'm supposed to go. Like, I have to go. And so they said, okay. And we went to the doctor, tried to get some medication, and I felt decent. I was just kind of floating. And then I started online mtc and.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] Okay, wait, so, yeah, okay, so you, even though you were having doubts and fears and depression.

Brinley Jensen [01:05:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] You decided you wanted to do it anyway, go on mission?

Brinley Jensen [01:05:22] Yeah, I mean, I felt like it was my duty and I felt like I had always wanted to. And I was just like, no, I can do this. Like, I'm resilient, I can go. And I honestly loved the online mtc.

Mission Call, COVID MTC, and Early Mission Experiences

John Dehlin [01:05:38] So let's talk about that. So this is. This is unique. So, yeah, prior to Covid, if you got called stateside as a Mormon, you would go to the MTC in Provo, Utah, for three weeks, you know, thousands of missionaries, and it would just be this intensive training of mission rules and.

Brinley Jensen [01:05:57] And.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] But you'd make all these friends, and it would be the spiritually uplifting thing.

Brinley Jensen [01:06:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] And if you got called to a foreign mission where you had to learn a language, you'd go to the MTC mission training center for two months and learn the language as well as missionary rules.

Brinley Jensen [01:06:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] Once Covid happened They couldn't. You know, missionaries started giving each other Covid in the mtc. They had to shut down the mtc. So what. What was Covid MTC like? Home mtc.

Brinley Jensen [01:06:23] I had a little desk set up in my room and a computer. And it's just all day. You get, I think, an hour and a half break in the middle of the day. You start in the morning. So you're still supposed to follow a schedule. Wake up at 6:30, work out, get ready. I believe class started at 8:00', clock, and you just learn how to teach on a mission. And I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] You loved home mtc?

Brinley Jensen [01:06:55] I did, yeah. I feel like because of how anxious I was feeling, I didn't want to be around people for real, which is unlike me, but I just. I was feeling so anxious. I was on a new medication, and so I felt really peaceful about it. And I liked having challenges to overcome, to feel like, okay, I can do this. So when they'd say, okay, it's time for you to teach us the first lesson, the restoration, talk about Joseph Smith, I was like, okay, I'm gonna be really good at teaching. And I was told I was really good at teaching. They're like, you're gonna bring so many people to Christ. You're well spoken. And so I felt like I was overcoming all my challenges.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Mm. Okay. So you, like, you didn't. You didn't feel like you were being kind of like, getting a lesser experience by staying home versus going to the mtc?

Brinley Jensen [01:07:52] No, I. I didn't really care.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Were you able to make friends with the missionaries in your district and, like. Because I made friendships, and that was an important part of the MTC experience was the friendships I made. Were you even able to make friendships or you didn't want to?

Brinley Jensen [01:08:09] Yeah, I did. I. Like, I had a companion, but you're just over zoom.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] And you would do companionship study?

Brinley Jensen [01:08:18] Yeah, we'd study together. We'd talk through our lessons that we had to plan together. So I loved my district. It was a group of, I think ten of us, and.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] Were all of you going to the same mission in Florida?

Brinley Jensen [01:08:31] No. So even my companion was going to California, but there were two other elders in my district that were going to my mission.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:08:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:41] Okay. And. And it was three weeks with home MTC?

Brinley Jensen [01:08:46] 3 and a half, I think.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] Three and a half weeks, yeah. And over. Anything you want to say about that experience overall?

Brinley Jensen [01:08:52] Not really. I. I felt prepared, and I was like, okay, if I could. If I can feel like I can teach These lessons confidently. Then I got this. I was like, it'll be fine.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:09:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] Okay. So as your time doing home MTC completes, what happens next?

Brinley Jensen [01:09:11] So I finish mtc, I give my farewell talk to my ward and friends and family over zoom. And everyone I love came over to my house to have lunch, social distance lunch and say goodbye. And I felt pretty at peace about it. I was like, I can do this. And I got on a plane and got to Florida, and I remember walking off the plane and, like, the humidity hit me, and I was like, okay, it's gonna be fine. I already love it. There's palm trees everywhere. This is perfect. And everything was really good until I got to my apartment and sat in my bed, and I was like, what did I just do? And the first three days of my mission was, like, the second hardest part of my mission because I just told my companions. I was like, look, my parents told me I didn't have to come out here if I didn't want to because they, like, weren't sure if I was gonna be okay. And I think I agree with them now. Like, get me out of here. I was crying. I felt so depressed. I didn't eat for the first three days at all.

John Dehlin [01:10:34] What was.

Brinley Jensen [01:10:36] Was. What was that like?

John Dehlin [01:10:37] What. What was going on, do you think?

Brinley Jensen [01:10:39] I just. Everything hit me that, like, this structure, the structure of the mission was going to be my life for 18 months. And I think every missionary gets hit with that a little bit when they first get out there, and they're like, what did I just do? But I just suddenly was like, I'm so scared that I came out here on a new medication that I'm not used to. We didn't really solve my depression. And I forgot to mention I had. My parents got me a counselor, but I just ghosted him. I blocked his number, and I was like, I'm not going to counseling, which was my first mistake. But I just felt so overwhelmed. And on my first day, I called my mission president, and I was like, so I think I'm gonna go home. And he was like, you seem so happy at the airport. And I was like, well, I'm not, so send me home. And they said, okay, if you can make it to next p day, we'll talk. And if you still feel like you want to go home, you can go home. And I was like, okay, good, because I'm going home. And I think what changed is I was. So when you first go out on a mission, you have to be trained for 12 weeks, and I was in a trio, so I was with two other girls that trained me, and they were the most. Like, the sweetest, most loving people I've ever met. All three of us had, like, such different personalities, came from way different backgrounds, different interests, but we were just, like, the best of friends. And I think the only reason I survived that time and made it through was because they honestly prioritized fun. And that night when I was just freaking out on the floor, they just held me while I sobbed for hours. And they said, okay, let's cancel the rest of our plans for the evening. We're not gonna go to our meetings. Let's go get ice cream. Let's go look for alligators in the ponds. And they made it fun. And I think I was kind of in a bubble. I started my mission in Daytona, Florida, and my mission president lived in Orlando, which is, like, over an hour away. So we're kind of off by ourselves by the beach. And we were probably being what other missionaries would call, like, lazy or how so not as motivated because we would. Like, it was Covid. So there were obviously some different rules, but we would have, like, movie night where we'd watch. Like, there was, like, a drive, and I didn't even know it was against the rules. I was just like, this is so fun. I love missions.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:26] You're getting trained.

Brinley Jensen [01:13:27] Yeah. You're like, wow. I was getting trained. And they were great missionaries. Like. Like a Mormon. An orthodox Mormon mission president would say that they were amazing missionaries. They both ended up being sister training leaders. Like, they're amazing, but they saw my needs and helped me, which I am eternally grateful for. But we'd watch, like, those old movies that the church would put out. I don't even know, like, singles.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] Like Hollywood movies.

Brinley Jensen [01:13:56] No, no, church movies. Church movies still, but. And they would let me listen to the. I don't even want to admit this right now, but the Kanye west, like, Christian album. I don't like that guy anymore. Just gotta throw that out there. But, like, just different things that made me happy. We'd go play basketball some nights. All these things that technically you're not supposed to do. You're supposed to be constantly dedicated to working. But they made sure I was, like, happy and having fun.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:30] Yeah, they put the human into it.

Brinley Jensen [01:14:33] They did. They really did. And we were always laughing. We'd make, like, funny vlogs about our day. We'd bake cookies and take them to other missionaries. Like, we had fun. And we still did the missionary work and taught people all this Stuff, but we just had fun. So I was like, this is what a mission is like. I can do this.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Yeah. That's interesting, because for me, I was probably one of the least fun missionaries in the history of the world. Margi, you're laughing. One of them.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:02] That's okay.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] Like, for me, the mission wasn't about fun. The mission was about obeying the rules.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:06] Bringing souls to Christ, getting baptized, working super hard and getting baptized.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:11] You get extra points if you have no fun.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:14] It's like, I'm actually.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:16] It is very true.

John Dehlin [01:15:17] Yeah. So, I mean, but it's weird that, like, enjoying your time is viewed as.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:24] As, like, lazy or bad.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:26] Yeah, it's true.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] But that was keeping you there.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:29] It was keeping me there. And I remember I became a trainer right after my training, and the girl I trained is so sweet, and, like, I tried to do the same thing for her. And I remember going to. There's a weekly meeting with other missionaries in the area called District Council, and I was like, what do you guys do for, like, companionship unity time? And they're like, what's that? And I'm like, you know, like, my trainers are always like, we'd play games or, like, go on a walk or go get ice cream in the middle of the day. And they were like, you're not supposed to do that. And I was like, what? It's called companionship unity time. They're like, that's not a thing. And I was like, oh, well, okay. And so that's when I kind of started to see, like, they were. They kind of had me in a safe little bubble. And so that was, like, the first six months of my mission. And then right before Christmas, I get moved to Palm Bay, Florida.

John Dehlin [01:16:28] Did you. During that time, did you teach people or have baptisms or any of that?

Brinley Jensen [01:16:32] Yeah, I forget about that part. We had one baptism. It was a guy named Cody, and he was really sweet. We were serving in a young, single adult ward, which I really loved. And then we got moved to a family ward in the same area, which I loved. All the people were so nice. So, yeah, we were teaching lots of lessons. We met amazing people. I do have some regrets. There was a lady that. She was super sweet, and she was trying to quit smoking because you can't get baptized unless you quit smoking. And so I stole all of her cigarettes and threw them away. And I'm just like, missionaries always do things like that because you have to do what you have to do. Like, you hear the inspirational stories of them smashing the Beer bottles on the ground. And it didn't go over that well with her, but. But I did it anyway.

John Dehlin [01:17:27] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:17:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:17:29] So a baptism in the United States, you know, that. That can feel really good to have a baptism on your mission.

Brinley Jensen [01:17:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It. It wasn't really my focus, which I often felt guilty about. I liked the service projects, getting out in the yards, meeting new people. That's what I liked the most. And I did love teaching, but I felt like I didn't like when everyone was about the numbers because it made me feel really anxious. And so I still wanted to get baptisms, obviously, but it did give me anxiety.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:18:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:08] Okay. What happened after six months? That's the third into your mission. You're only serving for 18 months as a woman and. Yeah, 20. 21 or whatever. So what happened after six months, three months into your mission?

Encountering Doubt and a Changing Worldview Mid-Mission

Brinley Jensen [01:18:20] It was like I went into the real world mission. It was like I was out of my bubble. I was no longer in Daytona. I get to Palm Bay, and I meet my companion, and she is the most amazing person. We're still close. And she taught me so much. She opened my eyes a lot. She was a feminist. She was very politically educated, and you're not supposed to talk about politics on the mission, but I remember the first night she puts her pajamas on, and her T shirt says, BYU Democrats. And I was like, what the hell is that? BYU Democrats. And she was like, yeah, I joined a club. And she taught me so much about that, and it opened my eyes. And it's not like she was meaning to turn me away, but I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I was telling her all about how I went on this amazing humanitarian trip with the church. And I was showing her the pictures, and she's like, huh? And I was like, what? And she's like, you don't want to have, like, a white savior complex, though. And I was like, what? And she just. Like, she was never rude, but she just, like, she really did educate me.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] What? Why were you shocked at a byu? Explain to our audience why you were shocked at a BYU Democrat's shirt.

Brinley Jensen [01:19:56] Because I didn't think that was allowed.

John Dehlin [01:19:57] What?

Brinley Jensen [01:19:58] Being a Democrat at byu, especially on campus.

John Dehlin [01:20:01] Why?

Brinley Jensen [01:20:02] Because the church is very conservative, very Republican. I mean, I was scared of that feminist account I found on Instagram. Like, it's not popular at all.

John Dehlin [01:20:13] So in your mind, the Republican Party in the United States and the Mormon church were synonymous?

Brinley Jensen [01:20:18] Oh, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:20:20] Like, people would always talk about, like, there's no separation of church and state. And I kind of was just like, yeah, there's really not. Like, the church does affect a lot of what happens in Utah. And it wasn't like, I wasn't like this. I was not conservative at that point, really, at all. But I kind of had it all just, like, inside. And she would talk about all her beliefs with, like, the LGBTQIA community. And we ended up teaching this amazing, amazing. These two amazing girls that they weren't dating when we first started teaching them. They were friends, but they wanted to take the lessons together, and they ended up falling in love. And we knew one of them identified as lesbian. We didn't know the other one did. And she came out to just my companion and I. She was like, can I talk to you guys for a minute? We get in the back of her car, or she got in the back of her car, and we were just talking, and it was like, I hadn't felt those, like, emotional. Like, you're crying because you feel something so strongly for so long until that moment. And I just remember feeling, like, so much love for this woman, and, like, I was so proud of her for telling us and feeling brave, like, telling two Mormon missionaries that you're a lesbian, that's got to be terrifying. But I was so grateful that I was with the companion I was with because we were able to tell her, like, we support you. You do what you want. Like, because this girl was already baptized years ago, but she wanted to take the lessons again because she had not been to church in a long time. But her friend that she was in love with, she really loved the church, and she liked the things we were teaching her about. And it was heartbreaking to tell them. I remember when they texted us and said, wait, so can she not get baptized if we're together? And we had to say no. And I'm just like. I was like, I have to be nuanced. Like, I have to try and change this culture. Because, like, they are just, to this day, still, like, some of the most amazing people I've ever met. And it just broke my heart to be like, I don't want to tell them that they're less than because of something that's, first of all, not in their control, and second of all, not a bad thing. Like, not something that's wrong with them or weird.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] So was it this companion that changed because you had talked about the lgbt, your LGBTQ views prior to mission, which was you tried not to think about it and loved your gay friend, but you kind of supported the church's position. Was it talking to this new companion that changed your views on LGBT stuff?

Brinley Jensen [01:23:14] I think a little bit of it. Throughout my mission, as I was exposed to, like, not living in Utah, living outside of the deep rooted Mormon culture, that I, on my own, started feeling more and more open and accepting. But she just, like, reaffirmed that. Like, she made me feel like I wasn't wrong for thinking that because to this day, she's a faithful member of the church.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] Oh, okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:23:39] Yeah, Attends byu. Great girl. But she made me feel like I wasn't wrong for thinking those things. And we would have great discussions about it. And even before I was with her, I had experiences where. Just a few experiences where I had gotten in trouble for being a little nuanced. And actually, I forgot to share one of the things I wanted to share about earlier, if I could. Is there anything else you wanted to ask?

Race, Gender, and Feminist Awakening on the Mission

John Dehlin [01:24:06] Please.

Brinley Jensen [01:24:08] I think the start of all this was when I was in Daytona with the girl I was training because we met a man. He was so cool. I'm not gonna say his name, obviously, but he really wanted us. He's like, I gotta get you girls, like, immersed in the Southern culture. Like, he fed us fish and grits and taught us about all the different football things and who not to cheer for, even though we couldn't watch football. And he really loved talking to us. And we were doing a service project with the elders at his house, and he was talking to us and he said, so why didn't you let. Because he was black. And he said, why didn't your church let the blacks have the priesthood? And I spoke up first and I said, well, that was a mistake because of racist leaders in the church.

John Dehlin [01:25:01] Whoa, where you picked up that?

Brinley Jensen [01:25:04] That's just what I believed. Like, I had learned about that. And I was like, there's no way that's from God. And I just. I didn't think that was wrong of me to think that. That was just my intuition. And I think on my mission especially, I mean, I had been taught to force down my intuition my whole life, but when this specific event happened and all the other missionaries in the room go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, and automatically just cut me down, what do they say? And they tell this black man to his face. One of the elders says, the way my dad says it to me is. And of course, every missionary in the room is white and completely unqualified to speak to him this way. But he says, well, the way my dad explained it to me is some things need to happen for the churches. For the church to be able to move forward. And this man just looks at him and is like, what did you just say? And I'm sitting there like, oh, my gosh. I don't want to be a part of this conversation. Because even before my mission, when the Black Lives Matter movement was getting so big, like, I had no reservations with that. I completely agreed. My family agreed. And just to see, like, be in a room with four white missionaries who are young, really don't know as much as we think we knew. To be talking to this black man who has been through so much. He had a professional football career. He's gone through so much in his life. And he lives in Florida. He knows about racism, like, obviously. And to have these kids sit there and say, like, well, this was for the church is good. And I was just like, no. And they look at me and they're like, yes. And I was like. I turned to him and I said, no, I don't believe that. So you can choose what you want to believe. And I got in so much trouble because one of the guys in the room was my district leader. And of course, that goes straight to my mission president. And I'm told, like, you can't preach things that the church doesn't preach. And then the next time we go visit this guy, he was having all of his health problems, and he said, I heard you guys give blessings. And the elders were like, yes. And he says, well, I want Sister Jensen to give it to me. And I just sat there, and they're like, she can't. And he was like, why? And I think he said, because she's the only one that doesn't believe. Your church leaders were right about the. The priesthood thing. And they're like, no, because women can't give blessings. And he just. I think he said, like, well, that's bullshit. Or something like that. Sorry, I don't know if I can say that. But it was just so awkward. I was just like, they're right. I can't. And he's like, fine, then I want her to pray for me. Can she do that at least? And I was like, yeah, I can pray for you. So I prayed for him. And the second we walk out, the elders just, like, they put me in my place.

John Dehlin [01:28:20] What did they say?

Brinley Jensen [01:28:21] They said, it's not your place. They said you just took away the opportunity for someone to receive a priesthood blessing from a priesthood leader.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] Implying what? That about their blessings versus yours, that

Brinley Jensen [01:28:36] theirs come straight from God, that mine's just a nice little, like, that Theirs do more than mine. And which is obviously. I mean, the priesthood is the higher power. Like, if you want to be healed, you ask for a priesthood blessing in the church. And so I. I never did that again.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] How did you feel when the elders, I guess, made you feel bad for giving a faithful prayer for this man's health, but telling you that was the wrong thing to do or inferior to the prayer they might have given or the blessing they might have given, How'd that make you feel?

Brinley Jensen [01:29:14] I was pissed.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:29:15] And I think that's why all these things leading up to being with this companion who was so openly a feminist and so sure in her beliefs that it was just like, I have. I'm not crazy. Like, I haven't been wrong all along. I do have a voice that needs to be heard. And it is okay to be an ally to the LGBTQ community, and it is okay to stand against racism and to not like Brigham Young. We would talk about that all the time. We hate Brigham Young. And she's like, but we can't tell anyone. And I'm like, yeah. And so it just, like, by that time, I was like, I'm gonna change church culture. Like, I'm gonna use my voice and my actions to be so loving and to just change this negative culture in the church. Like, I just. I felt so empowered, and that was my goal. And then everything kind of just started going south.

John Dehlin [01:30:23] I don't know if you make the church more feminist. Right?

Brinley Jensen [01:30:25] Yes. Yes. That was. I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be the one. I was like, no one's ever tried this before.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] This is 2019 or 2020 by this point. This or 2021.

Brinley Jensen [01:30:39] 2021. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:40] This is last year.

Brinley Jensen [01:30:41] Yes, this is last year. And I guess that's when everything started to go downhill for me.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Can I just make a joke?

Brinley Jensen [01:30:50] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [01:30:51] Reference.

Brinley Jensen [01:30:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:52] In the Book of Mormon musical.

Brinley Jensen [01:30:53] I actually haven't. I've heard the songs.

John Dehlin [01:30:55] Okay. Because they're. Because. Because Elder Price, if I'm remembering it right, Elder Price is the early protagonist and he gets called to Orlando.

Brinley Jensen [01:31:06] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] His mission. And in his song, he literally says, I'm going to be the Mormon who changes all mankind.

Brinley Jensen [01:31:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] And it's just the same.

Brinley Jensen [01:31:16] I'm him.

John Dehlin [01:31:17] It's just. But. But it's, you know, I guess it's bold to want to change mankind, but it's equally bold for, like a 19 or 20 year old woman, Young woman, to want to change Mormonism.

Brinley Jensen [01:31:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] A church that historically is, has a racist, sexist and homophobic and Republican past. And here you are at age 19 or 20 wanting to change Mormonism.

Brinley Jensen [01:31:42] Yes. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:45] I have a question about that moment. That you are in this situation with someone who's a non member and that non member is viewing you in a way maybe that you have never been viewed before, which is on a level I want her to do it. Can she do it? I feel like she's spiritually in tuned that I want it to come from her in that moment. Like, what did it feel to be viewed that way?

Brinley Jensen [01:32:23] I, I mean, I was shocked because no one had. That's never happened to me before. But I felt so honored because he was so amazing, so open minded and to let these kids into his home and not like, I just can't imagine being in his position and still treating those boys, those elders and all of us with kindness after being racist in his house, after he just fed us food and like, he was just such an amazing person. And him with his very serious health conditions to be like, I think she can help me. Like, I like her energy. I like who she is. I was just like, really? He wants me to do it. And so there wasn't a doubt in my mind that I wanted to say the prayer for him because I was like. Like, it was like we connected on that because he knew that I had stood up for him and like, I felt like he felt safe with me. And that made me, I was very humbled, to say the least, that he wanted me to help him.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:41] Yeah. I think sometimes those moments where we hit up against our view of ourselves, of what's possible, of what we can do. It's just no small thing to have, you know, an experience with another human being looking at us and then reminding us of something or, you know, I don't know, allowing us to envision a way of viewing ourselves that we're like, wait a second, why has that never occurred to me, actually that I could, you know, that they bring something to us. And in a way, it kind of brings us back to ourselves in a moment of like, you know, how powerful.

Brinley Jensen [01:34:22] Very powerful.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:23] Thanks for sharing.

Brinley Jensen [01:34:24] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:34:24] Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, it. I think that the Mormon Church in the Mormon church in 2022 fears a lot of things. It fears LGBT people.

Brinley Jensen [01:34:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] It fears being accused as racist. It fears people learning it's Mormon history. But my, my reading of Mormon history is the Mormon Church and the Mormon Church leaders fear a feminist awakening in Mormonism as its greatest fear. You know, and that's why so many of the September Six were excommunicated, were promoting feminism. And that's why when Margi and I were at byu, so many professors were being fired for just talking about Mother in Heaven. And even in 2021, 2022.

Brinley Jensen [01:35:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:10] Anyone. Any. Anyone who speaks publicly about Mother in Heaven. Like Fiona Givens at the Maxwell Institute. Her husband is, like, the leading Mormon apologist working for the Maxwell Institute. She's silenced and told to stop giving talks as soon as she starts talking about Mother in Heaven. I think the Mormon Church leaders are terrified of a feminist awakening. So for you, as a female, As a woman, young woman, Mormon missionary having a feminist awakening. Oh, speaking out, even contradicting other. Other men. Mormon young men, missionaries. Kind of like speaking out and even contradicting priesthood leadership in your mission. That's. That's not gonna go well if you keep that up.

Brinley Jensen [01:35:59] It did not. It did not go well. And, you know, that is when things started to definitely go downhill. Because even when, like, she. We were best friends. We had so much fun, and we were constantly praised for just working so hard.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] Your companion.

Brinley Jensen [01:36:20] Yes. We were teaching so many people, seeing success. We were like the social media leaders. So we were putting out all this content and helping other people to put out content on social media.

John Dehlin [01:36:35] Okay, explain that. So what, like, when I was on a mission, the Internet didn't exist.

Brinley Jensen [01:36:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:41] But then even until a few years ago, I don't know that Mormon missionaries were even allowed to have Internet access.

Brinley Jensen [01:36:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:49] Let alone be active on social media. So talk to us. Go back to the beginning of your mission. We're at Covid. Talk about the role of, like, devices and social media as a. As a Mormon missionary in 2019. 20. 20. 2021.

Brinley Jensen [01:37:07] So at the beginning of my mission, it was mostly Facebook.

John Dehlin [01:37:10] What about it?

Brinley Jensen [01:37:12] We. It was very controlled. Like, our phones still had restrictive. Like, I don't know if you heard of Moss360.

John Dehlin [01:37:20] So you're allowed. This is important. So you're allowed to have a smartphone. Did the church issue the smartphone or did you bring it?

Brinley Jensen [01:37:25] So it's different with every mission, but I brought it on my mission. It had to be Samsung so that they could put the. I don't even know what it is. Like, the monitoring. Yeah. The modern. Would you call it Moss 360.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] So the church tells you to bring a Samsung smartphone.

Brinley Jensen [01:37:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] And has you install an app called Moss360 that does what.

Brinley Jensen [01:37:45] Controls your phone so they can see what you're doing on there. There's like rumors. Some people are like, yeah, your mission president can watch everything you do on your phone. And other people, like, I don't really know. But you can't go to any websites unless it's like a church website. Like church Jesus Christ dot org.

John Dehlin [01:38:03] You can go to school.

Brinley Jensen [01:38:05] That's it. Your phone can't go to any other one.

John Dehlin [01:38:09] Oh. So if you go to Safari or Google browser, once you've installed this, this app, if you try and do mormonstories.org what happens? Or Reddit or whatever, first of all,

Brinley Jensen [01:38:20] you get red flagged.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] What does that mean?

Brinley Jensen [01:38:22] Your whole phone shuts down. I only know that this happens because the last day of my mission, I was trying to install an app so that I would be able to communicate with my family in the airport, and my whole phone shuts down. It says, like, your authorizer has been informed, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [01:38:44] Whoa.

Brinley Jensen [01:38:44] So I didn't even know that would happen the whole time.

John Dehlin [01:38:47] So if you try and install an app that you're not allowed to install, you're saying this MOS app shut your phone down?

Brinley Jensen [01:38:53] Yes. So my whole phone restarted. I couldn't talk to my family when I was in the airport. I just had to find them.

John Dehlin [01:38:59] And I want to come back to that. But. Yeah, but right now we're just talking about the phone's limited functionality. And if you try and go to a website that's not approved, the. The app does what?

Brinley Jensen [01:39:10] Well, it won't let you. Yeah, it won't let you.

John Dehlin [01:39:13] And.

Brinley Jensen [01:39:13] And it gets flagged if it's. I mean, if it's like Mormon stories or pornography or anything like that.

John Dehlin [01:39:20] So your, your mission president and. Or the church headquarters would be notified that you tried to go to an unapproved website?

Brinley Jensen [01:39:27] I believe so, yes. That's what I was told.

John Dehlin [01:39:29] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:39:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:30] Okay. So you have this phone, you install the app, you're told what you can't do, which is install any apps or go to any websites other than lds.org yeah. What about Facebook and Instagram?

Brinley Jensen [01:39:41] So we didn't have Instagram until later in my mission.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:39:44] But Facebook finding was always a part of it. Because of COVID you can't go out in the streets as much and talk to people. So we would message people on Facebook, messenger, we would put out ads for, like, service in the area, join local groups, stuff like that. Put, try and make inspirational posts, like, every day.

John Dehlin [01:40:12] So you were asked to be active social media participants at some point, trying to spread the gospel through Facebook and Instagram?

Brinley Jensen [01:40:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:20] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:21] What Was that. So could you see other people's social media posts?

Brinley Jensen [01:40:24] Yeah. So you're not supposed to follow family members or friends from back home. You're supposed to just follow locals, other missionaries, just trying to make local connections only. And you can't be on your phone unless your companions watching. So, like, when you're doing Facebook finding or Instagram finding, you're. You have to like, it's four eyes, one screen is what they would say. And if you want to make a post, you have to read it to your companion first to get it approved.

John Dehlin [01:40:57] Wow.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:58] Some policing.

Brinley Jensen [01:41:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] Well, four eyes, one screen. I've never heard that.

Brinley Jensen [01:41:03] That was the motto of my mission. Four eyes, one screen.

John Dehlin [01:41:07] What if someone DMs you either on Facebook or Instagram. Someone from home or whatever.

Brinley Jensen [01:41:14] So on Instagram, like, I mean, my mom, I think a few times would be like, love this because she followed me. I just didn't follow her back. And then I just, like, wouldn't respond. And we would use Facebook messenger, like on P days to talk to family. But if someone from home DMS you or messages you not on a P day, then you're not supposed to respond unless it's like a missionary opportunity. So if a friend from back home is like, I want to join your church, then you can respond. But that never happened.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] Okay. So you're using Facebook and Instagram to spread the gospel and to try and find people locally. So how would you find people locally to potentially teach through Facebook and Instagram?

Brinley Jensen [01:41:59] Yeah, we would use hashtags. Like, when I lived in Palm Bay is when we really got more into it. So we'd look up like, hashtag Palm Bay influencer, hashtag Palm Bay small business. We look under the location, like different locations in Palm Bay. We would go to local, like, Christian pages and then go to all their followers and message. Every single follower. I'm trying to think of how else we did it. We would join, like Palm Bay neighborhood Facebook group and post in there like, I'm a LDS missionary, ask me anything. Which does not go well, if you're wondering. Some people were nice. It got like 600 comments of just like, explain this, explain this, explain this. And I'm like, I can't.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] What were they asking you to explain?

Brinley Jensen [01:42:55] It's usually like local pastors saying, like, well, why does it say in the Bible that no one will ever see the face of God? And then Joseph Smith saw the face of God or, why does the Book of Mormon have this contradicting thing? Why does Alma have So much of Isaiah in it. Like, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:43:15] Or second Nephi.

Brinley Jensen [01:43:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:17] Yes.

Proselyting with Growing Doubts and Inner Conflict

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Okay. So you started getting introduced to doubts about the church through proselyting.

Brinley Jensen [01:43:25] Yes. All the time.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] You're probably. Were you annoying people?

Brinley Jensen [01:43:29] Yes, I guarantee we were annoying people, which I still feel. I feel bad about it. But also, at the time, it was like, we're saving them. Like, we're bringing them to the restored church. And I would like. We ended up teaching this girl. She lived in Ireland and she was very feminist and having struggles with the church. And we're like, no. Like, we're feminists and we are doing great. Like, we are members and we go to church every Sunday and we're missionaries. We follow all the rules, but we're creating a change. Like, if you join the church, you can create a change, too. Like, that was the mentality that we would give if we were faced with that, which it's a lot easier to be. Like, you can make a change, but then, like, you have that lesbian couple where it's like, yeah, they can make a change, but they get kicked out pretty fast if they're trying to, like, be married. Like, oh, we want to get married in the temple. Like, that's just not going to happen for them, man.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] My mindset of my mission was obey, obey, exact obedience. Follow the brethren and obey whatever the brethren say because they speak with God. I can't imagine being a missionary thinking, well, this church is good, but it's messed up in a ton of ways.

Brinley Jensen [01:44:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] And I disagree with the church in a ton of ways, and I'm going to be the one that helps make the church better. Like, I can't imagine being a missionary under that mindset.

Brinley Jensen [01:44:56] I honestly can't either. Like, sometimes I think back and I'm like, how did I do that?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:01] Yeah. Because I think individuation, this idea of individuation within the church at kind of any time, you know, it. It requires a lot of effort. It requires a lot of courage. It requires. Just because of culturally how it works and what happens when you do that. But for you to do it on your mission, for you, of all places where, you know, there's just a whole system upon the system upon the system. And. And for you on some level, to be. To choose that. Not to choose, but to have that time be these moments of just standing up and speaking and expressing yourself and finding voice and. And. And kind of honoring this emerging, you know, this emerging, you. You know, during this time, it's really something.

Brinley Jensen [01:45:57] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:46:00] Okay. Okay. So you're getting bombarded with questions and doubts about the church. You're proselyting progressive Mormonism as kind of a woke liberal, feminist, progressive Mormon missionary. Anything else you want to say about. I mean, just generically about the use of social media? Because this is a whole new category.

Brinley Jensen [01:46:23] I know there's a lot to say.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] So were you proselyting, knocking doors?

Brinley Jensen [01:46:28] We could only knock the doors of people who had been previously contacted by missionaries. So we couldn't. Like, if someone approached us on the streets, we could offer our message, but because of COVID we couldn't just go up to someone or knock on their door just because you never know if someone doesn't want to be approached, especially once masks weren't required outside anymore in Orlando.

John Dehlin [01:46:56] So, yeah, 80 to 90% of my mission was tracting, was knocking doors. And so I can't imagine a mission where you're not doing that all the time.

Brinley Jensen [01:47:07] No.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] What was it like? What were you doing in all your spare time?

Brinley Jensen [01:47:13] The most active and busy time on my mission was with this companion. And we would just. We'd make appointments through social media. That's how we found a lot of people or through. We have a. There's an app missionaries use called Area Book, where you can see every member in the area, every person that's ever been taught, people that aren't interested, people that you are teaching. It has all their information, all their past lessons, every interaction they've had with missionaries is written down. That's quite a record. Address, phone numbers, everything. So they'd call it gray dot finding, because every gray dot in your area book on the map is someone who's not being taught, that's been contacted by missionaries before. And so we just go through. There's hundreds of them. And we would just text them, call them. They started doing this thing where you'd put in the area code of Palm Bay, which I think was. I don't remember what it was, but you'd put in the area code in your phone and then you'd type like 111-1111 and then 111-1111 and call every number in the Palm Bay area code, trying to find people to teach, like telemarketers. So we definitely found ways to fill our time. Service projects, meeting with members, asking them to invite their friends. It was very. It was still very busy. Just less knocking.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] Okay, so you felt busy. Were you frustrated? Were you happy? Were you enjoying it? Were you going stir crazy? Were you bored?

Brinley Jensen [01:48:53] When I was with this sister, I Feel like we had so much fun together. Like, I was exhausted, but I was busy enough that I wasn't thinking about things that were stressing me out. And that was at the beginning of 2021. But with so many responsibilities and like, everyone speaking so highly of us, it kind of took me back to that perfectionism. And I just started to really go downhill.

John Dehlin [01:49:22] In what way?

Brinley Jensen [01:49:24] I just beat myself up about everything. And I started to get in trouble with my mission president a lot, to the point where I physically couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, I felt nauseated all the time. Anytime our phone rang, I was scared it was going to be him calling to be upset with me.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] So talk about getting in trouble and getting.

Brinley Jensen [01:49:46] Getting like, the things I got in trouble for. I just started with me, like, becoming more and more progressive and feeling more comfortable with myself. I started to let my personality show more. And I'm very outgoing. But as a missionary, you're supposed to be, like, more reserved and professional and spiritual. And so it's like the whole laughing loudly thing, I was laughing loudly, like, and sisters aren't supposed to wear leggings because it'll tempt the elders. And on p days, we were allowed to go to the beach and not get in the water or anything, but just be on the beach, play games for like, a few hours in the morning. And I started wearing leggings because it was comfortable. And I got in trouble for that. My zone leader kind of got mad at me. And what got me in trouble was I made a comment, was like, well, how do you know I'm not staring at all the elders butts? And that did not go well. Like, that is so inappropriate. I'm like, but it's true. What if I am like, them wearing their tight church pants is the same as me wearing leggings. But obviously that didn't go over well. And if I stood too close to an elder in a picture or I would get accused of flirting all the time. And I'm like, I'm literally just being nice. But I got in trouble for it. And I think one of the bigger ones was we were on the boardwalk. We'd go to all the cute little surf shops and walk around town together as a district. And we walked in and there's cute swimsuits everywhere. And I'm dying because I'm in Florida and I can't wear a swimsuit. And. And me and all the sisters are just, like, looking at all the cute swimming suits and they're like, you should just go Try one on. Like, don't come out in it obviously, but just go try it on. And so I go in, I try on the bikini, and I took a cute little selfie to show my companion. Then I deleted the picture. But one sister was very uncomfortable because of that. She didn't see me in the bikini. Just the fact that I tried it on. And she knew that it happened. She called my mission president and he was very upset. He said to me, like, this is a very big sin to some people. Like, what would your mother think? And I said, my mother also wears bikinis. And like, I mean it. He just like, he couldn't say anything to that. And I, it just, even though I was standing up for myself a little bit, I just felt so guilty about everything. There were just so many little things.

John Dehlin [01:52:36] I just have to say that in my understanding of a Mormon context, if your mission president has called you in and is getting after you for something, the only right answer is, I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again. So for you to say my mother would be fine with bikinis, that's showing insubordination and a lack of respect for patriarchy and the priesthood. That would be considered really problematic by a Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:01] It's like, it's like disrupting the system. You're becoming a system disruptor.

Brinley Jensen [01:53:06] Yes. And I maybe didn't realize it at the time, but I'm glad I did. But even though, like, I was standing up for myself, I didn't feel very confident in it just because I was constantly being put down. And then all the leaders in the mission, like the zone leaders, the male like elder zone leaders, were always getting after me. And I've actually just for like, you're acting like you're having too much fun. I heard you slept in. Like, I heard you guys are having problems with sleeping in. I heard you're not liking exercising in the mornings. And I'm like, cuz I'm exhausted. Like, or just like, you need to stop flirting, you need to stop wearing those leggings. There were some p days where we're playing sports all day long. Like we'd wake up in the morning, beach volleyball, go to the church gym, play basketball, go out to a field, throw a football. I'm in Florida, 90% humidity, it's 100 degrees outside. So some P days I wouldn't wear my garments because I'm like, I'm exercising. And I got in trouble for that because they're like, you're a missionary. You wear your garments even when you exercise in the morning, which I didn't do that. I didn't think you had to. And so I just felt like everyone was after me. And then there were some STLs in my mission sister training leaders who were telling my mission president that I was being disobedient and that I would get on my phone and call my family all the time, which I wasn't. Because I was scared. Like, I didn't break rules. I wasn't out to break rules. Like, I felt that me wearing leggings wasn't a big deal. And for myself, I was like, that's a stupid rule. I'm not doing that. But when it came to being like, I wanted to be a good missionary and I wanted to make God happy still, it wasn't like I was like, trying to rebel and be evil.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:01] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:55:01] And so it just became like missionaries saw me being different and it was like a big problem.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:55:11] And I had never felt more like constantly sick to my stomach in my life for months.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:22] I just feel so, so much for that because I think the strength that it takes to kind of start that process when you're on a mission and they control so much of your life and reality and can punish you and make things really difficult for you, there's a lot of emotion management to that. Because what's true, even if you think in the moment this is right and you're starting to kind of emerge and show a sense of self, and it doesn't mean you're prepared for what comes at you as a result of that. So I can just imagine that's new, that's different. And particularly in a system where. Where you're really depending on the people around you to be okay, you know, where you've been taught kind of to do that, that you're okay by having. By showing up in a certain way and you've got no one, really. I mean, in a position of power. And then I think once it's so easy to be identified as a threat that once people see you being identified that way, then it's almost like, you know, you don't even need the upper people.

Mental Health Crisis and Feeling Trapped on the Mission

Brinley Jensen [01:56:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:33] Then you've got people around you with

Brinley Jensen [01:56:34] that look what she's doing. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:36] That are out to get you and out to. And that just must have felt excruciating. I can just imagine.

Brinley Jensen [01:56:43] Yeah, it was definitely excruciating because people that have never been on a mission or who don't know much about the Mormon Church would say, like, you were scared because you were wearing leggings like that's not a big deal, but it's like when you're on a mission, it's not the real world anymore. Like you're 21 or 20. 21. 19 year old girl who should feel like an adult. Like you just graduated. Normally people that age are going to college, like starting their lives, but instead you are completely under control. Like people are in charge of you and if you say no to what they want you to do, that's like incredibly disrespectful.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, I think about, you know, just like speaking out against the church is terrifying, but what you did is also terrifying. Trying to be independent, come into your own, learn to listen. Not only listen to your own voice, which is not encouraged as a Mormon or as a missionary.

Brinley Jensen [01:57:54] Not at all.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] But then to stand up for your own power and take on parts of the system that you don't think are healthy. Trying to do that as a woman and as a missionary is incredibly difficult and stressful and courageous. And I can understand why your brain was just dumping adrenaline and cortisol into your system, making you stressed and nervous all the time. Because a thousand years ago it could have got you killed in whatever tribe you were a part of.

Brinley Jensen [01:58:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:31] And so your biological programming would be saying, danger Will Robinson. Yeah, Danger Susie Robinson. Like, don't go against the system or it could be harmful to you.

Brinley Jensen [01:58:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:44] And she. And you're experiencing it. I mean, you're being called in.

Brinley Jensen [01:58:47] You're being on some level, all the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:50] That's right. So you're experiencing no safety. I am not safe.

Brinley Jensen [01:58:55] That's exactly how I felt. And I had expressed. I'd been going to counseling on my mission because I had gotten in a car accident. I had previous trauma with car accidents. I was having nightmares every night. He was treating me for ptsd. Just, I was having horrible reactions to even being in the car, trying to deal with that stress. And so I was going to counseling and I start to bring up these things I'm feeling. And I do agree with some of the things that my counselor told me. Of course, it's a church counselor, which means anything I say. If I wanted to get counseling, I had to sign a document saying he can tell my mission president anything I say.

John Dehlin [01:59:38] Okay, right there. Like that's such a problem.

Brinley Jensen [01:59:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:41] Sign the document.

Brinley Jensen [01:59:42] That was the only way I could get therapy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:45] So, like, you become you. You go to get a master's or PhD in therapy, the first thing you're taught is that your, your client you assure your client confidentiality.

Brinley Jensen [01:59:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] And you tell them the only way confidential confidentiality gets break broken is. Is with your consent and. Or in the case of you or someone that you love being harmed, who's vulnerable. But confidentiality is like the cornerstone of therapy. And so your Mormon missionaries are signing waivers where they're giving their therapists the permission to disclose whatever they share with their therapist that. That violates like, a core cornerstone of. Of ethical and viable therapy.

Brinley Jensen [02:00:38] Yeah, exactly. And I really struggled with that because so much of what I wanted to talk to my therapist about was like, I feel like my mission president hates me. He's constantly getting mad at me. I feel like everyone's after me. And then my therapist would just tell me, like, well, those are your automatic thoughts. Like, no one's after you. It's all in your head. And I was like, okay, like anytime these people start to come after me, I just have to remember it's all in my head.

John Dehlin [02:01:09] The problem is there's a conflict of interest because your therapist also represents the church.

Brinley Jensen [02:01:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] So they're not. The other sort of like therapy 101 is you're supposed to stay independent of your own biases and values and preferences. And your allegiance as a therapist is supposed to be to your clients values, not to your own. But if your therapist is getting paid by the church and hired by the church and representing the church, their first priority isn't your values, Brinley Jensen, it's representing the church. And so there's a conflict of interest on the part of your therapist.

Brinley Jensen [02:01:51] It's true. And all of this, like, combined together just like, I wasn't really trusting my therapist, but he was. Like, some of the things that he was coaching me through were helping me to be able to cope still. But I was still really struggling. And then they started having me meet with this lady. I don't know anything about her. It was Zoom meetings, and they said that she could prescribe me pills to help me because obviously the medication I was on wasn't helping and I was just not doing well. And so every two weeks, she prescribed me a new pill. And she would just say, take it for the two weeks. If you don't feel any change, we'll do a new one. And I don't know how many medications I went through, but, like, it was just horrible. There was a week where the pill I was on, I don't know what it was, but it made me, like, lightheaded and I would pass out and I felt nauseated. Even worse. I Couldn't eat still. And she's like, just keep taking it. And so I just had to hold on till the next meeting. And so this just led to, like, a very anxious, depressed, unstable missionary having all of these pills. I don't know how many of them were controlled substances. Like, I don't know what I was taking. Like, I'm sure my mission nurse knew, but I just became so, like, in such a dark place. And at the same time, because of this, I am praying, begging for an answer and getting nothing and feeling like God just is not even there. And on top of that, at this time, the church for Come Follow Me was studying Doctrine and Covenants, and we're reading through it. And some of the things that I was reading, I was just like, this is what I believe.

John Dehlin [02:04:03] Like what?

Brinley Jensen [02:04:04] Just like Joseph Smith forcing people to marry him. I Forget what section 182.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] DNC 132.

Brinley Jensen [02:04:12] 132.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] We've covered it a lot on warmth.

Brinley Jensen [02:04:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:14] Yeah. And what. What did you read in DNC132?

Brinley Jensen [02:04:17] Just how he was damning people if they wouldn't marry him.

John Dehlin [02:04:23] Yeah. Specifically Emma. He tells his wife Emma after he'd already married 22 people without her consent.

Brinley Jensen [02:04:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:32] He, in his revelation, says that God says. It's in the voice of Jesus. Emma, if you don't let Joseph take plural wives, you will be damned.

Brinley Jensen [02:04:42] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] And you're reading that, thinking, what thinking?

Brinley Jensen [02:04:46] Well, just through all of Doctrine Covenants, there's so much damning like, you're damned if you do this, you're damned if you do this. And I'm like, I feel like this doesn't sound like anything I've read in the Book of Mormon at all. And I'm like, how did I not see this? And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna be a member of the church who doesn't believe in the Doctrine and Covenants. Because I was like. I really did. I was like, I hate the Doctrine and Covenants. And as we're reading through it and studying along with Come Follow Me, they skip over all of the parts that, like, are a little questionable or a lot questionable. And so I was, like, speaking to my companion about this because she had been through a faith crisis before her mission where she, you know, reconciled some things.

John Dehlin [02:05:36] Now, was this the BYU Democrats companion?

Brinley Jensen [02:05:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:39] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [02:05:39] So she grew up, like, in the Bible Belt, Texas. And, you know, she. She was there for me. She validated everything I was feeling. She was like, yeah, it's fine if you hate The Doctrine and Covenants, that's fine. So that was really good to have her there with me. And she was validating, but that was the only validating thing because my therapist is telling me like, just keep praying, just keep having faith. It's all your automatic thoughts are telling you this. It's not your real thoughts. And then I think my breaking point was we went to state conference and my mission president was there and I just felt like he was looking at me and I felt like he just knew everything I was feeling and I just ran out of the state conference.

John Dehlin [02:06:27] What were you feeling?

Brinley Jensen [02:06:29] Just every testimony that was given, in every talk, I'm just like, I don't feel like them, like I don't agree with. Because of course it was all about Doctrine and Covenants because of come follow me. And I'm just like, this isn't resonating with me. This isn't how church was when I was at home where I just loved everything that was being said and felt so empowered. Like, I feel like if I were to get up and share my thoughts, they'd have to stop me. Like. And so I just ran out and my companion came after me and she's like, what is wrong? And I'm like, I am just struggling with my faith so much and at the same time as I'm feeling all these things, I'm still teaching the lessons, declaring with everything that I am, that I know the church is true. And so it was just like that self betrayal that we were talking about where I'm just like, I don't know what I believe, I don't want to be here. And, and even with all those doubts, I still, there wasn't even a thought of leaving the church. Like that wasn't even. I still binge watched the, what's it called? The apologist. Any apologist content Saints Unscripted Saints unscripted. Like during my personal study, I'm just watching all of their videos. Like, see, I know, like they're proving everything right. Like I know the church is true. It's just something's wrong in my brain right now. I don't know if there's anything else you want to say.

John Dehlin [02:08:15] So when you run out and your companion follows you, did your mission president notice and what was how, how did that story end?

Brinley Jensen [02:08:23] He. I don't know if he noticed. He never said anything about it. But soon after that I got, she got transferred away and so I was with a new companion, still struggling like this.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] So you lost your kind of progressive.

Brinley Jensen [02:08:40] Yes, I lost My lifeline.

John Dehlin [02:08:43] She was your lifeline? Because she was.

Brinley Jensen [02:08:45] She validated me. Yes. Yeah. She let me know that, like, it was okay to feel that way, that it didn't mean I was evil. It didn't mean God loved me any less. That kind of. She was speaking to me that way, which was really helpful.

John Dehlin [02:09:02] And do you think they took her away from you because they wanted to put you with a different type of person, or do you just.

Brinley Jensen [02:09:10] I don't know. I've never thought of it. She had been there for a long time, so it could be anything.

John Dehlin [02:09:14] Yeah. Okay, but to you. But to you, you lost your lifeline.

Brinley Jensen [02:09:21] Yes. Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [02:09:23] And how many months into your mission was this?

Brinley Jensen [02:09:26] This was. She left right before my birthday in May, so I was going to hit a year that July.

John Dehlin [02:09:38] Okay, so you were with her six months?

Brinley Jensen [02:09:41] Yeah, just about six months.

John Dehlin [02:09:42] And so by the time she leaves now, you're a year into your mission, which is two thirds of the way through your mission.

Brinley Jensen [02:09:48] Yeah. Okay, so I had a little bit left.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] All right, so, yeah, two thirds in your mission now you lose your lifeline. How did. What happens next?

Margi Dehlin [02:10:01] I.

Brinley Jensen [02:10:04] Things just got worse. I had talked with my mission president right before she left, and it was just to the point where I'm like, I want to repent of all my disobedience. I want to start a new chapter. Like, she's leaving. I just need to, like, force myself into the mold. And so I got it all off my chest. I said I was sorry, and that was that. And I kept going to counseling, but I was still doing really bad, because

John Dehlin [02:10:38] at that point, you're just internalizing. You're just trying to turn it off, shut it down, pack it down.

Brinley Jensen [02:10:43] Yes. Especially because I couldn't say the things I wanted to in lessons anymore because I wasn't with someone who was going to back me up. And I think what really just tore me down the most was we were having. My companion and I were having discussions with some amazing people. We were teaching. Not really teaching, but having discussions with this couple who were Baptist, and they would cook us Sunday dinner, and we would have a discussion where we knew we probably weren't going to convince them of anything because they were both very well educated, well versed when it came to the Bible. And anyone who's well versed in the Bible knows that there's lots of contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. And we would just have discussions. And I was, like, dedicated to researching. Like, I probably could find a bunch of research in my notebook right here, like, of trying to.

John Dehlin [02:11:42] That's your missionary notebook?

Brinley Jensen [02:11:43] Yeah, I have my journal and my. And my notebook with me. But I enjoyed going over there because it was just a fresh, healthy perspective. Like, they taught me things I had no clue about when it came to the Bible. And same with this other guy we were teaching. And so then when my companion left and I got a new one. Generally, as a missionary, you're taught. Like, if they're not going to accept your message, you ditch them. Like, you don't teach them anymore because it's not worth your time. But I loved going and talking with them. And she, my new companion, was so dead set on, we have to prove them wrong or we're never speaking to them again. And they were like my home away from home. Like, they cooked us nice meals, and they were so kind, and I did not want to let go of them. And I didn't care if they weren't going to get baptized. But she insisted that we invite this other member from our ward to come with us to a lesson. And he was like a gospel doctrine teacher, very intelligent, and it was so, like, vicious, like, arguing. I felt so embarrassed, so discouraged. I was humiliated and sad that they probably assumed. I mean, I don't know what they thought, but you're supposed to be one with your companion. So I had to go along with it. But I didn't want to sit there and have this guy yell at them. And so I think that was the last time I ever saw them. And I was just like, if I act perfectly Mormon, then everything I love gets ripped away from me out here. Like, everything that's keeping me sane and lessons just turned into arguments where we're trying to prove people wrong. And I'm like, for someone that. For people that preach of loving Jesus, like, regardless of if you believe Jesus was God or not, this is not what he taught to act like this. And so I was very discouraged. And there was one night where I was just crying. My companion was annoyed with me for being depressed, and she said, well, why don't we say a prayer? And so she kneeled down in front of me and prayed that I'd stop crying, stop acting depressed, get it together so we could go teach this lesson. And I just remember being like, that is not how it works. Like, you can't just pray that I'll stop crying. That made me cry more. But I just was to the point where I was so discouraged. And I started to. I was scared of my companion because she wasn't Very nice. And there's not much I want to say about that, but I couldn't reach out to my mission president through text because she'd see it. And there was. You're supposed to email. You get an email in your inbox, and then it leads to a link where you email your mission president every p day. You're supposed to. And he would always say, like, I read every one. Like, even if I don't respond, know that I read it. And so I started emailing him once a week saying, like, I am not doing good. I'm so depressed. I am scared for what I might do. Like, please help me.

John Dehlin [02:15:29] What do you mean, scared what I might do?

Brinley Jensen [02:15:32] At that point, I was extremely suicidal. I don't know if you need to give a trigger warning for that or anything. Yeah, trigger warning. And my therapist constantly asked me if I was. And I said no because I knew I didn't know what he was going to do with that information. I was scared. I knew this wasn't regular counseling. He was paid by the church. And so at that point, I had plans because, you know, no one was regulating any of this medication. I had. I had six full bottles of pills that I didn't know what they were. And at that point, I was planning on taking my own life at some point. And so I emailed him week after week with no response. And I remember thinking you would call me, like, weekly, if not. Well, more than that, when you were upset with me and needed to control me and keep me, you know, not acting out. But now that I need you and, like, I am crying out for help, it's just silence. And I didn't want to tell my family that I was feeling this way. And anytime I would start talking about my feelings to my companion, it was just shut down. And so I was just like, okay, I'm just gonna try and go on for as long as I can. And when I can't take it anymore, I'm going to just end my life. And I stole a SIM card because when you move areas, you get a new SIM card to put in the phone. So I stole a SIM card so that if I needed to escape to. I had a whole plan that is pretty personal to talk about, so I'm not really going to give details, but I. I stole a SIM card to put in my phone so that I have some way of contacting someone to just escape somehow. And I don't know if there's anything else you want me to share about that part.

John Dehlin [02:17:57] I'm dying to know what happens next to SIM card. And you're suicidal.

Brinley Jensen [02:18:02] Yeah. Not doing.

John Dehlin [02:18:03] I'm so, so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:04] Honestly, how alone you must have felt.

Brinley Jensen [02:18:08] Yeah, you know, and I just. I brought my mission journal because I shared on my TikTok some of the things I wrote down when I was feeling this way. And there were some people. Yeah, there was some things that I just want people to know that, like, missionaries need help. Because I have heard so many stories, even from missionaries in my own mission, that I had no clue were going through the same types of things. And so right at this time, like, almost every journal entry was like, hi, journal. I'm just here to tell you I'm an empty shell of a human being. Xoxo, Sister Jensen. Like, every entry, I wrote one saying, hi, journal, how are you? It's weird that I'm asking you this, but since my companion is giving me round 957 of the silent treatment, I figured I'd talk to you instead. And just talking about how dark and alone I felt and that the mission is supposed to be this amazing spiritual, like, everyone talks about, like, I never want to go home. And I was like, not only do I want to go home, like, I want to be dead because of how this place is making me feel and no one's giving me help. And I remember I almost told my counselor I kept a journal while I was talking to my counselor. And I would write down everything I wanted to tell him. And I was writing down the advice he was giving me. And I was about to tell him about my suicidal feelings. And he told me that he had an exercise for me to try where I should just go in the mirror every day and look myself in the eyes and say, you are a horrible missionary. And I remember, like, he said it was called. I don't remember. I think it's somewhere right here. But it was like, yes, exposure therapy. And I was like, that doesn't really resonate with me. I'm not doing well. I don't think I should talk to myself that way. And he was like, just try it for a week. And I remember getting off the phone. I was in a church building. My companions were waiting. My companion, some other sisters were waiting for me, another room. And I just fell to the ground in a panic attack, just screaming. And people heard me screaming and I ran into the other room and I told them what he said to me. And they were like, no, you're not a terrible missionary. But, like, just the confusion, hearing different things. My mission president isn't speaking to me when I'm begging for help. Like, I'm being told to try this exposure therapy where I say I'm a horrible missionary. And at that point, I'm like, I just don't trust my counselor, because I told him I didn't like that and told me to do it anyways. And, like, I don't know if that would be effective for someone, but not me. And so I was just doing bad. My mission president still wasn't really talking to me. And then it comes time for transfers, and he calls me, and I'm thinking, finally. And he says, I want to call you to be a Sister training leader. And I was like, what? That's what you're calling me about? And he's like, yep, you're going to Lake Nona in Orlando. And I'm like, okay.

John Dehlin [02:21:58] Does he think that's so. That's just for the listening audience. Prior to the Ordain Women movement, Women missionaries, or they're called Sister missionaries, had no leadership responsibilities at all on a mission.

Brinley Jensen [02:22:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:12] Once feminists started really agitating within Mormonism, starting around 2014 and into 15 and 16, the church came up with a response to the feminist agitation, giving sister missionaries some responsibilities, some leadership responsibilities shy of district leader, zone leader, assistance to the president. So that's what an STL is, kind of a leadership position. And your mission to president's thinking, oh, Brinley, Sister Jensen's depressed. I'll give her a leadership calling, and maybe that'll make her feel, what, honored and respected? Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [02:22:48] I'm not sure. And I just remember thinking, like, I am the one that, like, all the STLs hated, because when I was speaking out and being myself, they came after me. And so I was like, why would he think I want to be an stl? Like, I don't want to work with these girls that are so mean. And not saying that every STL ever is mean, but that's how I felt. And so I meet my new companion. She is amazing. She was so sweet. And I was just like, okay, I'm just gonna pretend I'm, like, the happiest, spunkiest girl, and maybe it'll, like, trick my brain. And so she's like, are you ready to, like, make goals and get so many baptisms? And I'm like, yes, let's work so hard. And every night, I would just cry. And during personal study, I would just cry. Like, anytime I could get to myself, I'm just, like, dying inside. And it was our second day together, and we're sitting There having personal study. And I just. Like, my gut was just telling me, like, just be honest with this girl. And I felt like she had some suspicions because when I was unpacking, I think she saw me moving a billion pill bottles, which no one like. I'm sure some people have that many pill bottles, but a sister missionary, I don't know. So I'm obviously paranoid that she's gonna find out, take them away. But I just kept having this feeling that was just like, trust yourself. Like, don't think about your mission president. Don't think about the fact that you have to be a leader right now. Like, maybe you should just talk to this girl. And so we get done doing personal study, and she looks at me and she's like, what's wrong? And I was like, I feel like I should tell you something. And I just told her everything. I told her about my plan. I told her how I stole a SIM card.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] And what does stealing a SIM card mean?

Brinley Jensen [02:25:12] You're so. Anytime a SIM card is no longer in use in an area, it's supposed to be returned to the mission president, and I stole it.

John Dehlin [02:25:22] Why are you returning SIM cards to the mission president? What does that do?

Brinley Jensen [02:25:27] I'm not really sure if it's just a control thing or, like, no one. You're not supposed to have a SIM card unless your phone is, like, the dedicated area phone that you use to contact people. So if you have a SIM card in your phone, like, you can get in a lot of trouble because that's giving you access outside, like, overriding MOSS to the bigger world. Right. Being able to text Moss can't stop you from texting as soon as you

John Dehlin [02:25:52] switch your SIM card. So you're using your mission phone without a SIM card?

Brinley Jensen [02:25:57] Yeah. So you just use hotspots. Whoever has.

John Dehlin [02:26:00] Using WI fi.

Brinley Jensen [02:26:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] So Mormon missionaries only use WI Fi, and that's the only way MOSS works. If they use a SIM card, then they can. They can. They can work outside of the control app that controls missionary. That monitors and controls missionary behavior.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:20] No.

Brinley Jensen [02:26:20] So, like, in every companionship, both of you have a phone and whoever is the senior companion. So whoever's put in charge over the area has the SIM card in their phone. So every area has a dedicated SIM card, but it's only to be used for texting members, all of that. So it not necessarily overrides Moss. But when you have the phone without a SIM card, you can't. It's not like you can message people or, like, get on the Internet. I mean, people Find ways to get around Moss. And so that was my plan to find some way to escape or something. I had all these different plans in my head. And so an area had been closing when I was in Palm Bay, and it was my companion's job to take it back to the mission president, but I took it from her, and it was just the lost SIM card that I had.

John Dehlin [02:27:20] But it almost sounds like somebody. I'm not calling the church this, but it sounds like somebody who's kind of trapped in a cult, trying to find a way to break away.

Brinley Jensen [02:27:31] Yeah, definitely. Because truly, any missionary could walk out their door, walk to a bus station. Like, it isn't as hard as you would think to just go home. Like, they're not legally in charge of you, I don't think. But something about the control of being there is. Like you were completely trapped. Even though it should be common sense that you can walk out the door, you have no obligation, no legal obligation to be there. It's like that's not even a thought in your mind. It's like you have to come up with some type of escape plan. And sadly enough, mine was death. And so when I told this new companion this, the first thing she did was she hugged me. And she was like, we need to talk to someone. We need to tell the mission president. And I'm like, he's not going to do anything, is my first thought. And then she asked me if she could flush all the pills, and I said yes, which was really hard. And she called the mission president's wife and said, we need to come to the mission home. And she was like, we have lots of meetings today. Sorry. And my companion was like, no, like, cancel your meetings right now. And she drove me there, and I sat there with my companion, and I sat next to my mission president's wife, and my mission president, like, was just across the room from me, and I just told them everything. And I just cried on her lap for a long time. And he was extremely apologetic that he had no clue that that's how bad it had gotten. And then he tells me, it's church policy that you have to go home immediately. And for whatever reason, I just, like, broke into tears all over again and was like, I'm gonna disappoint everyone. Like, no one. A missionary coming home early, no one immediately jumps to mental health. They're like, what did they do on the mission? What did they not repent for? And so I was just heartbroken. And they booked me a flight for the next morning, and my family Was excited to see me, and I went home immediately.

John Dehlin [02:30:28] Wow. Yeah. It's just really clear. You felt trapped, you felt imprisoned, and you felt like there was no escape that the church had such control on you that you had to be disappointing your family, your mission president, God, yourself. And so you wanted. You. The only out you saw was. Was ending your life. Is that right?

Brinley Jensen [02:30:55] Yeah, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:58] Were your. So were your parents aware of any. Of any of this on your mission?

Brinley Jensen [02:31:06] They knew I was struggling and that I was trying new medications. They didn't know it had gone that bad, and they wished I had told them, obviously. I mean, any parent would. But, yeah, they just knew it had gotten really bad because, I mean, I told them about me getting in trouble and how discouraging it was. And I remember just bawling to them on the phone saying, like, please don't call my mission president and get, like, upset with him for getting me in trouble. Like, just don't say anything.

John Dehlin [02:31:40] Which is so strange because your parents had said you didn't even need to go.

Brinley Jensen [02:31:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:44] But you still felt like you'd be disappointing them if you went home early.

Brinley Jensen [02:31:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:48] Can you explain that?

Brinley Jensen [02:31:50] It's just. I don't think it would have mattered what they said. They could have been like, just don't go. They could have told me, we don't want you to go. And I still just. That lifelong pressure, not from my parents, but from the church and completely dedicating myself to an organization, like, just giving myself over my whole life. It's like I felt like coming home early would just be, like, ruining all of that. My lifelong commitment, like, everything that means anything at all to me.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:24] Yeah. And probably, I mean, your concept of identity for yourself, how you viewed yourself. Right.

Brinley Jensen [02:32:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:37] I mean, if perfectionism was. Was your. Was a pillar from these adolescent or even childhood years within. Within Mormonism, early mission return is viewed as failure. It just is.

Brinley Jensen [02:32:52] Yeah, it is.

John Dehlin [02:32:55] Yeah. So you didn't see returning home early as an option?

Brinley Jensen [02:33:00] No. And once I did get home, I. I did feel good about it once I saw, like, the second I got home, my entire extended family was there welcoming me home. Everyone was just happy. I was okay. And I realized, like, it's okay to come home early. And I had always been an advocate for that. But I have a younger brother who's not going on a mission, and he's faithful Latter Day Saint. He fully plans on getting married in the temple. He like, daily prayer, scripture study. He's very orthodox. But a mission would not be good for him and his mental health and he's okay with that. And I've always been such a, like the first one to stand up and be like, you don't have to go on a mission. But then when it was myself, yeah, I was like, absolutely not. She has to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [02:34:01] Wow.

Brinley Jensen [02:34:02] Yeah.

Suicidal Struggles and a Companion's Support

John Dehlin [02:34:03] Do you feel like your companion maybe saved your life?

Brinley Jensen [02:34:07] Yes. I told her that I think if I would have stayed with the other companion I was with, then it wouldn't have been the same outcome because I didn't have a safe space. But this new companion, like, she didn't make it about church or missions. She didn't ask if I was dealing with a faith crisis or anything. She just cared that I was. To keep me alive.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:37] Shout out to her.

Brinley Jensen [02:34:38] Yeah. She's amazing.

John Dehlin [02:34:41] And, you know, the intelligence that I'm receiving from people inside the church is that in 2022, something as high as a third of all Mormon missionaries are coming home early from their missions. And that some super high percentage of like 60, 70% or more of Mormon missionaries either come into the mission, you know, with depression or anxiety or are experiencing depression and anxiety on their mission in a clinical way. Like, there's a, there's a mental health crisis with, with the youth and young adults of today.

Brinley Jensen [02:35:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:35:18] But it even seems worse for Mormon missionaries.

Brinley Jensen [02:35:22] Yeah. It's intense pressure just constantly and it's impossible to reach expectations. It's just not going to happen. And so I think it breeds depression and anxiety because I was already struggling before I came out, but once I once it all hit me and I was in the middle of it all, I don't think I've ever felt worse in my life.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:48] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] And there's, there's so many areas. You know, as someone who was trained as a psychologist, I'm seeing so many red flags from your mission president caring more about the mission than your well being. The control, the coercion, the fact that the church is recommending a therapist to you, there's a conflict of interest. There's the fact that you're signing away. Confidentiality is a huge problem with a therapist that has a conflict of interest. That's a huge problem. And the church controls everything about it. And then your mission president's unresponsive when he's supposed to be reading those emails. He's neglecting you. And then you've got some sort of psychiatrist or nurse practitioner that's prescribing you meds in a way that's totally irresponsible. Like it's just a disaster. The church's approach to mental health on missions, you're making. I mean, what I'm hearing from you, it sounds like a disaster. As someone who trained with a PhD in psychology.

Brinley Jensen [02:37:02] Yeah. And I used to think, like, maybe it was just my mission, but ever since, like, speaking up about it on social media, I've had. I couldn't even count how many returned missionaries from all over the world that have had the exact same experience with medication, with counselors, with companions, with mission presidents. And I try not to place a lot of blame on my mission president because he, like, before he was a mission president, his job had nothing to do with mental health or anything related to that at all. And so it's just that they're calling someone who has no experience in helping hundreds of new adults to just be in charge of them for a year and a half to two years of their life with no clue how to help them other than, I'm going to pray about it and God's going to tell me what to do. But if he was praying about it and God was telling him what to do, then I shouldn't have ended up the way I did on my mission.

John Dehlin [02:38:12] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [02:38:13] Same with countless other missionaries all over the world.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:16] Yeah,

Brinley Jensen [02:38:19] yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:20] And I agree with you. I have missionaries emailing me, DMing me from Facebook every week.

Brinley Jensen [02:38:27] Me from their missions.

John Dehlin [02:38:28] Yeah. Wow. Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:29] They're.

John Dehlin [02:38:29] And they're saying, help me, John. I. I don't believe anymore. Or I'm trapped, or I don't know what to do and I don't want to. Like, one thing I'm not going to do is say, get out of there. Go home. Like, you're on Reddit. These missionaries are coming on Reddit. Somehow they're getting on Reddit.

Brinley Jensen [02:38:44] Yeah. There's links you can follow.

John Dehlin [02:38:46] Yeah, yeah. So they're going on Reddit and they're saying, help me. I'm trapped on my mission. They're reaching out to Mormon Voldemort, literally to John Dehlin, who's been excommunicated, communicated podcaster saying, john, help me. And. And I see, you know, some folks on ex, ex Mormon Reddit going, get out of there. Go home. And I'm like, I'm not going to do that. I'm not gonna.

Brinley Jensen [02:39:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:06] Like, I'm not gonna tell a missionary what they should or shouldn't do. I don't know what their situation is at home. I don't know what their mental health condition is. I don't know the circumstances. So people might expect me to do that. But I'm not going to do that.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:18] No.

John Dehlin [02:39:19] But then should I, should John Dehlin be counseling Mormon missionaries about how to, how to navigate their mission? I feel, even though they're adults, I feel like they're kind of children.

Brinley Jensen [02:39:30] Yes. That's how it feels.

John Dehlin [02:39:31] Huh?

Brinley Jensen [02:39:32] That's how it feels as a missionary. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:34] So part of me feels like, would their parents, even though they're adults, would their parents want John de Lynn counseling them?

Brinley Jensen [02:39:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:41] And so sometimes I don't even know how to answer them and sometimes I don't answer them because I don't know how to answer them. And, and I want to tell them to get a good therapist, but they're locked in a system where they're not allowed.

Brinley Jensen [02:39:56] Yeah, they're not allowed.

John Dehlin [02:39:57] So this is, I mean this is the Mormon. And, and, but it's happening so often now that it feels like an epic mental health crisis within Mormon missions. And I, and I don't think the church either they, they aren't aware or they don't care or they don't know how to solve the problem. And I don't know which it is.

Brinley Jensen [02:40:18] I don't, I have no clue which it is. And that's why I've had several people that I served with in my mission reach out to me, you know, in disappointment that I've gone down the path that I have. And I would just say to them that like, I'm not trying to get you to leave the church or anything like that. Like, I know the church isn't going to stop sending missionaries out. They're not going to stop doing all the things they're doing, but they should at least figure out a way to help these missionaries to not drive them to the point of being suicidal. And to hire, like, have options for therapists who aren't LDs, who can listen with an open heart, who can hear anything a missionary is saying and not try and change their mind or tell them it's all in their head because that's what happened to me and that was not helpful for my mental health at all.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:27] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [02:41:28] And that's what happens to so many missionaries. But it's just hard because the chances of the church hiring non LDS therapists is slim to impossible.

John Dehlin [02:41:44] Yeah. Yeah. So this is something the Church needs to fix. And, and they, if they're not going to fix it for the health and the well being of the missionaries, they should probably fear some type of class action lawsuit because I think it's reaching epidemic proportions by 2022. I think it's a really serious deal. I. I know. Like, I've already. Just this month. Just this month. You're the third returned missionary that was suicidal on their mission.

Brinley Jensen [02:42:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:13] You're the third in a month that I've interviewed who served a mission in the past few years or recently, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so sorry that happened.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:23] I am, too.

Brinley Jensen [02:42:24] Thank you. Yeah, I am, too.

John Dehlin [02:42:28] Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to. I'm going to maybe suggest something that's a little bit on the fly. I think we should end this episode as part one. Not and yet, but I think what I want to do is kind of have this be its own episode about basically wanting to die on your mission and coming home early. So let's. Let's work towards closing out this episode by talking just about the mission aftermath of coming home and anything else you want to do to tie up your mission experience.

Brinley Jensen [02:43:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:43:02] And then we'll take a break to be humane and we'll come back for a part two, kind of about reconstruction, like deconstruction. Well, your processing of your faith after your mission. And then if there was deconstruction or reconstruction, which is Margi's favorite topic, we could talk about that as. As a part two.

Brinley Jensen [02:43:21] Yeah, that sounds great.

John Dehlin [02:43:22] Is that okay?

Brinley Jensen [02:43:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:43:23] But. But what else would you like to say about coming home early? And you know, there's going to be either missionaries watching this, because there are plenty of missionaries who watch Mormon stories.

Coming Home Early and Church Pressure to Perform

Brinley Jensen [02:43:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:34] Somehow they do it. Or they're going to be people considering missions or people who come home early. Any final experiences or encouragement or wisdom or advice you want to share about coming home early in the aftermath as a Mormon missionary?

Brinley Jensen [02:43:51] Yeah. I think that when I came home early, you know, you have to give your homecoming talk. And I had to stand up in front of my entire ward, friends and family and talk about why I came home early. And I didn't go into detail. I mostly just talked about being in a really dark place and being depressed. And I still. I was still pretty strong in my beliefs that the church was true and that somehow God was going to work something out for me. So I shared lots of that in my talk. And I talked about being a mental health advocate. And I just remember, like, being so praised for talking about it. And then I was asked to speak in different wards. And it was a little exhausting because the reason they loved it so much was because I was talking about how you can come home early from your mission and still be happy or how like, there's. It's all going to work out in the end. Just stay faithful. And I think it's like a security blanket to be able to say, just because something bad happened to this missionary doesn't mean the church isn't true. Doesn't mean bad things are happening. And so I would just say that it's okay to, like, I wish I would have let myself sit in my anger and work through those feelings instead of just being like, now it's time to put on the show for everyone. Like, what a miracle that I'm home. When instead, like, I should have focused on healing immediately and not worried about a homecoming speech.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:42] Yes.

Brinley Jensen [02:45:43] And traveling around my stake telling all these people. And there were people that reached out to me that said, like, thank you for speaking on mental health. Like, I really needed that, and that is great, and I'm glad that I could share that. But in the church, the narrative with mental health isn't always going to be, my mental health sucks, but it's all going to be okay because I am reading my Book of Mormon and I have strong faith, because it does not always end that way. And that can be a really painful way to force yourself to feel after coming home. Like, I'm really struggling, but don't worry, everyone. I'm still Mormon, so no one has anything to worry about. Because I think that's kind of what I was trying to put out there about myself when I got home.

John Dehlin [02:46:35] And it's what the community desperately wanted you to put out. Because everybody's like, oh, my gosh, Brinley came home. Why? Not only would it make them wonder if there was something wrong with the church, it would make them wonder if there's something wrong with you. And so there's this urge to reassure everyone that the church is still true and that you're still faithful.

Brinley Jensen [02:46:53] Mm, exactly. And because I know that's what I would have wanted to hear as a teenager when I was obsessed with being perfect. It scared me when people around me left the church or even had questions in their faith. And so I think I just wanted to give people that safe feeling, like, she almost died, but she's still Mormon, so everything's gonna be fine.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:21] I feel like we're so conditioned to do this, too. This idea of we serve others, you know, and we take care of others, and it's really this reinforced abandoning of ourselves and our needs. This where we don't see our needs as being valid or important to meet or even aware that we have needs or how we might Meet those needs, that there really is this conditioning that happens where it's all about others. How do I make you feel? What. What is needed here that, you know, the community needs or this person needs? And in so doing, when we. When we do that, we do abandon ourselves at our time of suffering, oftentimes to kind of show up for. For other people. So as you were doing that, what was going on inside you, like, as you are kind of giving that message of what you're. What you're reading, as you know, what other people need and how to kind of show up in this way that keeps everything intact in the ribbon tied around the. You know, the. Just. So what did it feel like to be you in those moments?

Brinley Jensen [02:48:44] Yeah. Thank you for asking that. I think I thought I would come home and my mental health would just snap into place. But on the inside, nothing had changed. The first thing that I was. I got home. You're supposed to have a little interview before you get released. And they said, okay, the first thing we want to do is get you right to the temple. We got to, like, start all this. Do you want to do a service mission? And all of that just, like, sent me spiraling because the thought of a service mission, even my parents met with the service missionary leaders with me, and even they were like, it doesn't seem like that's going to be good for you. And I was like, no. And so I'm putting on this show. And my parents knew I was still having a hard time, but I just felt so hopeless. I tried to, like, jump back into normal life. I applied for a job, and on the first day, I just felt so depressed. I didn't show up. And I thought, like, I can't even go to work. Like, what is my future? I'm not going to be stable enough to be in a healthy relationship with this returned missionary my patriarchal blessing talks about. And I don't feel like I could be a mother like this. And so I just felt really like nothing had changed. And my parents got me another LDS counselor who didn't show up for our first meeting. And so I just. And then I got another counselor who, after she told me I need to do one spiritual thing a week, and I said, I don't think I can. She ghosted me another LDS counselor.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:44] Wow.

Brinley Jensen [02:50:45] And so I was just like, this is four LDS counselors that have let me down, like, on my mission and at home. And I'm just by myself, like, trying to figure this out, and I'm not doing good. So that Was kind of, if that answers your question.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:04] Yeah. It just sounds so absolutely exhausting to be the person suffering and needing help. How many times you, you know, tried to get help? Just the effort to kind of try to reach out, to communicate with, you know, your mission president to. Those efforts are huge. You know, when you're in a place of just real mental health crisis and vulnerability, and for you to have so many times of just feeling ghosted, you know, hurt, that when you're reaching out and you're trying to, you know, get to a safe place or talk to someone that you're feeling hurt by them, gaslighted by them, or, you know, just time and time again, it just sounds incredibly traumatizing.

Brinley Jensen [02:51:55] Yeah, it definitely was traumatizing. And it just sent me the message that, like, I have given all of who I am to this church, and they are not helping me. Like, they're not fulfilling their promises. I was like. I did all the things, like, I went through the temple, I was baptized, I went on a mission. I tried my hardest to the point of just insanity, and I felt like I just got nothing back. I was like, these counselors that you're paying aren't helping me. And even the counselors I was seeing were like, as long as you're okay that we tell your bishop everything you say. I'm like, well, that's my father, so, no, I'm not okay with that.

John Dehlin [02:52:47] By this time, your dad has become your bishop.

Brinley Jensen [02:52:49] Yes. Yeah. So I just felt completely betrayed by the organization I gave my entire self to, my entire life.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:05] Felt betrayed.

Brinley Jensen [02:53:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:07] That they weren't looking out for your best interests.

Brinley Jensen [02:53:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:13] I'm so sorry. And people should know, those who aren't Mormon, not only does the church not pay you for your mission service, but you pay to be a missionary. It would be like being on a corporate salesforce and paying to be a salesperson for a corporation.

Brinley Jensen [02:53:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:31] So you were paying. You were giving two years, a year and a half of your life and paying to then have the church, in effect, neglect and abuse you psychologically.

Brinley Jensen [02:53:42] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:48] And then after you wanted to die and the church knew it and your home, them continuing to neglect and in some sense abuse you.

Brinley Jensen [02:53:59] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:54:05] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [02:54:05] That's disappointing.

John Dehlin [02:54:07] Yeah. Okay, how do you want to. How. Well, any final words you want to say for this episode for missionaries past, present or future who are returning home early, or do you feel like you've kind of said it all?

Brinley Jensen [02:54:22] I guess just.

John Dehlin [02:54:22] Oh, I know, I know. So these missionaries that reach out to me Saying, John Dehlin, I'm on a mission, or John Dehlin, I'm thinking about a mission, but I don't believe. What do I do? Can you. Can you provide any experience or perspective for either missionaries that are trying to decide what to do or for those who are considering whether or not to go? What?

Brinley Jensen [02:54:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:54:47] You don't have to give them advice because that's not our job. But what perspective do you want to share with them?

Brinley Jensen [02:54:53] I just wish when I was in that position, I would have trusted myself because I was giving myself the signals for months that it was not safe there, that I was not happy, that it was not good for me. But because the church told me otherwise, I ignored everything that my instincts were telling me. I would go so far as to watch the video that Jeffrey Holland put out about why you should never go home from your mission, which is a very damaging video.

John Dehlin [02:55:33] Well, you would watch that when.

Brinley Jensen [02:55:35] Just on repeat all the time while

John Dehlin [02:55:37] you were a missionary?

Brinley Jensen [02:55:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:55:39] That was available to you?

Brinley Jensen [02:55:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:55:42] How?

Brinley Jensen [02:55:44] Anything that any, like BYU speeches, any inspirational videos you have access to. Oh, and they actually make you watch that video in the mtc, that horrible

John Dehlin [02:55:59] video where Jeffrey Holland says, never leave your mission early. Never come home early?

Brinley Jensen [02:56:04] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:05] Oh, you watch that on repeat?

Brinley Jensen [02:56:07] Yeah. So. And I was told in the mtc, like, if you ever feel like going home, just remember this. And so I would watch it and watch it and watch it and be like, I am wrong. He's right. I need to stay out here. And so I think I try not to have regrets because everything's a learning experience. But any other missionary that is going through that, I would just hope they trust themselves before anything else, because, like, everything inside of me was telling me to get out of there, but I just pushed it down and it did horrible things to me. And so I would just hope that, like, trust in intuition, trust that you're not crazy and that your feelings are valid simply because you have them and it's okay to disagree with people who want you to stay out there.

John Dehlin [02:57:17] I mean, that's brilliant, brilliant advice.

Brinley Jensen [02:57:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:57:20] Very, very good advice. Very simple, but profound. And it gets to the themes, Margi, you're exploring, which is self betrayal. And I will just say I just released that video of Elder Holland. Well, an audio recording of Elder Holland saying two missionaries on a mission that he doesn't know. A more pitiable group on earth than Mormon missionaries who return home early. And I am confident that video alone, that talk alone, has led to a number of deaths by suicide or suicide attempts. And I've had missionaries within sort of a 20 year window tell me that they have either listened to or seen that presentation.

Brinley Jensen [02:58:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:05] But I always thought it was bootleg underground. And so it's shocking for me to hear that that talk as a video.

Brinley Jensen [02:58:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] Was made available to you as part of the resources made available to missionaries struggling with their mental health.

Brinley Jensen [02:58:20] Yes. He. They made an apology video available. I don't know if you've seen his. Not necessarily an apology, but being like, I didn't mean it like that. But he still kind of reaffirms his same message in that video. Because when I saw the follow up video he put out, I was like, oh, maybe I can go home. And then by the end of the video I was like, nope, still can't go home. So it's definitely available, man.

John Dehlin [02:58:47] If anybody can help me find a video of that talk of Holland's or a video of Holland's apology doubling down, I, I will share that far and wide because I feel like, I mean, talks like that jeopardize or, or in some cases end the lives of Mormon missionaries. I believe.

Brinley Jensen [02:59:10] Definitely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:12] One thing I really love about your reflection and response on some level is that, you know, anytime, you know, you have a system that punishes you for connecting to yourself or using your own voice and rewards you for kind of falling in line into the system, whatever the system is kind of asking of you, it's a good indicator you're being used.

Brinley Jensen [02:59:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:45] And so what I love about that, connecting to yourself and trusting is on a level making it really clear that you won't use me anymore. You know, unconsciously, like if I choose to give it, that's one thing, but the default setting will not be that I have a relationship where you exploit me and you use me.

Brinley Jensen [03:00:11] Definitely. Thank you. I would agree. For sure.

John Dehlin [03:00:15] Yeah. All right. Well, Brinley Jensen, we just hit the three hour mark for this episode and we still have kind of your faith processing slash deconstruction or reconstruction ago.

Brinley Jensen [03:00:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:00:28] Or is this. Do you have time for more today or.

Brinley Jensen [03:00:31] Yes, I do argue.

John Dehlin [03:00:32] Do you have time for more today?

Margi Dehlin [03:00:33] I do.

Brinley Jensen [03:00:34] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:34] All right, so check this out, viewers and listeners. You get a bonus. We told you there'd be one part. You Get a full 3 hour episode on the Mormon Church making a missionary want to die. I don't mean to be glib, but that's what today's episode, that's what part one was about. And stay tuned because we're going to go right to part two where Bridley talks about, and this is just in the past 12 months, her return from her mission.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:59] Processing her mental health and her faith after an early mission return. Probably some faith crisis themes and then where, where she is now with her life and with reconstruction and with her thoughts and, and even maybe some of her beliefs.

Brinley Jensen [03:01:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:19] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [03:01:19] I can't wait.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:20] All right, thank you, Brynn.

Brinley Jensen [03:01:21] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [03:01:22] All right. Well, thank you, Brinley, because I think this, if Elder Holland's video jeopardizes lives, I think that your story has the chance of saving lives.

Brinley Jensen [03:01:33] I would hope so.

John Dehlin [03:01:34] Yeah. I think that's maybe that's why you're doing it, I hope.

Brinley Jensen [03:01:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:37] Thank you and thanks, Margi, for being a part of this.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:39] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:01:41] All right. All right, everyone stay tuned for part two of this amazing two part interview with Brinley Jensen. We appreciate all the support and we'll see you on the flip side on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1681

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is October 18, 2022, and we are in part two of our interview with Brynlee Jensen. Hey, Brynlee.

Brinley Jensen [00:00:12] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] Welcome back.

Brinley Jensen [00:00:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] We just spent three hours where Brinley talked about a very sobering and timely topic, which was what happens when you're a Mormon missionary young woman and you reach such levels of depression and anxiety on your Mormon mission that you want to die? And I. That's a. That's a harsh thing. It's a strong thing to say, but that was not only Brinley's experience, but it's been the experience of tens of thousands of Mormon missionaries over the years. And the Mormon Church is having an epidemic of a mental health crisis with its missionaries in 2021, 2022, which is not just a Mormon crisis. There's an epidemic of mental health for teenagers and young adults in the United States. So it's really important that we're talking about it. Brinley just spent three hours talking to us about her faithful Mormon upbringing in Ogden, Utah, and her time in high school of deep sexual shame around religious purity and purity culture within a Christian and Mormon context. And then her time on a mission in Florida where she did a lot of good things, but reached such levels of anxiety and depression that she wanted to die and ended up coming home early from her mission. So that's where we left off. Part one, please. If you haven't watched it, pause, go back and watch that. It'll make part two a lot more meaningful. But now we're going to start part two, which is about the aftermath of returning home from a Mormon mission and then her faith processing, possibly deconstruction, and then whatever the reconstruction looks like, that's going to be what part two is about. Is that right, Brinley?

Brinley Jensen [00:01:49] Yes, that's right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] How you doing?

Brinley Jensen [00:01:51] I'm doing great.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:01:52] Excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] How was your snack? How was your break?

Brinley Jensen [00:01:55] It was great. It was delicious.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] All right. And if that weren't enough, we also have Margi Dehlin in the house as co host.

Brinley Jensen [00:02:03] Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:04] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] So, so great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:08] Yeah, thank you.

Homecoming, Temple Endowment, and Disillusionment

John Dehlin [00:02:09] All right, Brinley, so we left off with you talking about your homecoming and how the Mormon Church pressured you to act like you were great and act like you were still faithful in a way that was continuing the trauma and the harm that you experienced on your mission.

Brinley Jensen [00:02:25] Yeah, yeah, exactly. I came home still, obviously was not doing Good at all, but kind of felt like I had to put up a front. Not for my family, because they were accepting and loving and wanted me to feel better, but just for. I feel like the Mormon community and for the church as a whole definitely put up a front.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] Well, where. Where should we go next in your story? Because I'm guessing there were still. There was still some residue from your mission. I know we talked during the break about the homecoming of your mission president. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about other things that you learned from missionaries who came back from your mission.

Brinley Jensen [00:03:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] But also just your story. So where should we go from here?

Brinley Jensen [00:03:10] I think to start, my mental health started getting better. I got on a new medication. I went to a doctor in the real world. It wasn't in the mission world that got me on a really good medication, and I was starting to do better, but I still had a lot of struggles with my faith and what that meant. And at that point, I feel like I considered myself pretty nuanced, but still very faithful. Like, my doubts scared me a lot, and I was doing everything in my power to still feel those spiritual feelings that come with a mission. Because when you're surrounded by church constantly, it's relatively easy to keep believing. But when you go back to the real world and it's up to you whether or not you keep practicing, it can be a little tricky. And so I think what started for me was my biggest struggle was the temple. So I didn't share this in the last episode, but because of COVID most missionaries, when they receive their endowment in the temple, they do that before their missions, but I had to do it on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] So you went through and took out your endowment in the temple while you were on your mission?

Brinley Jensen [00:04:42] Yeah, in Orlando.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:43] Oh, wow.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:44] So it was a few months after I had gotten there. November of 2020.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Whoa. You were a couple months into your mission before you went through the temple?

Brinley Jensen [00:04:53] Yes. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Wow.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:55] I know.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:55] So did you wear garments then?

Brinley Jensen [00:04:57] No.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:57] So you. Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:04:59] Yeah, I had to pack them with me.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Wow.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] But you weren't wearing them yet?

Brinley Jensen [00:05:03] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:04] Yeah. Very interesting.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:07] But I knew I. I had reservations because I had heard people saying, like, it's kind of weird, but it's sacred. And I just had this feeling like, I don't think I'm going to like this. And I was talking to my trainers about it, like, just help me prepare. And they're like, just don't try and memorize everything. Just know, like, it's sacred. Just live in the moment. And so it was a big deal because you're there with. My parents flew to Florida to come through with me, and my mission president's there and other missionaries that I look up to are there.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] And

Brinley Jensen [00:05:51] it was horrible. What the temple experience, the whole experience.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Take us through that.

Brinley Jensen [00:05:59] Yeah. So I was already scared. I was scared of wearing garments. I was scared of adjusting. And I went in there and at first everything was fine until we got to the portion where it's the actual endowment ceremony. And forgive me if I forget some things because this is the one and only time I've gone through. I haven't been to the temple since. But I just remember the only. As I'm sitting there wearing these clothes.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] So there would have been the washings and anointing first, which has been changed since I went through.

Brinley Jensen [00:06:43] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:06:44] You're wearing some sort of poncho and they're touching you with oil on your head? Probably.

Brinley Jensen [00:06:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] They're giving you something.

Brinley Jensen [00:06:50] They put oil on my head. Give me a new name. And I was just like, okay, okay, this is fine. Telling me I'm going to be a goddess or something. Or a queen. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] And in heaven.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:05] Yes, something like that. And my. I remember my mom saying, like, wasn't that just amazing? And I'm like, yeah, like, feeling a little overwhelmed. And then we get to the actual. Is it called, like, just the room ceremony? Yeah, the endowment ceremony.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] And did they. Did they have you veil your face or was that taken away?

Brinley Jensen [00:07:27] No, they didn't do that at that time. I think they.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] They had taken away the temple. The. The face veiling for women.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] By the time you went through.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Okay. But you're in white. You're dressed in white with the green.

Brinley Jensen [00:07:39] Yeah, the apron. Yeah, I remember. Well, the first thing I remember is we walk through to get the clothing, and they're like, it's your lucky day. And I was like, yeah. And they're like, you don't have to pay because you're a missionary. And I was like, pay? People pay in here. And my first thought was, in the Bible, one of the only times Jesus got mad was when people were.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] Yeah, at the temple.

Brinley Jensen [00:08:10] Money in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] But you have to pay to, like, rent clothing.

Brinley Jensen [00:08:14] Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, you couldn't buy stuff in here.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:08:20] And I just thought, that is the strangest thing.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] They also have a cafeteria.

Brinley Jensen [00:08:24] Yeah, they have a cafeteria. I found that out, too. You can go buy ice cream. Expensive ice cream. I was like, I'm Pretty sure Jesus doesn't need us to spend money in his temple. So that was the first red flag. I was like, why are we buying? Yeah. I was like, if we're renting it, like, if I'm giving it back, why do I have to pay to use it for a few hours?

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:08:48] And so I was like, yeah, I don't have to pay. Okay. And we walk in, and I held my bag upside down, and I dropped all the temple clothes on the ground. And just this old woman just looks at me like, you did not just drop all those clothes on the ground. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And I shove them back in the bag, and I'm sitting next to my mom. And I just remember feeling so uncomfortable. And we're watching the video play, and I don't remember most of it, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] It's a lot of, like, Garden of Eden.

Brinley Jensen [00:09:22] Yeah. God and Jesus, Adam and Eve, Satan watching this play, and I'm like, what is happening? And I was nervous, and I'm going through doing all the steps. And then it got to the part where it was time for the prayer circle, and I just remember being like, I don't want to go. Like, I don't want to go up there. But I remembered, like, when I first sat down, they say, like, if any of you are not worthy to be here, like, if you don't want to be here, like, leave now. And I'm like, I don't want to be here. But my parents flew across the country to watch me do this. Like, this is supposed to be one of the biggest moments of my life. Like, this is ensuring me to live with my family forever. I'm not walking out. Like, you can't just walk out.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] So it's. It's kind of coercive.

Brinley Jensen [00:10:11] Yeah. And I'm like, three months into my mission, they're not going to let me stay out if I refuse to go through the temple. Yeah, automatically stay at home, I'm sure. And so I'm just like, okay, I just got to do it. And as I walk up and we're doing the hand signals and doing all the things and standing in the circle, and I just have tears, like, running down my face. The only phrase I can think that describes, like, how I was feeling is that my soul rejected it. I was like, this isn't right. I was like, I don't know why. I don't like this place. I don't like what I'm doing. I don't see how this is sacred. And I feel Extremely uncomfortable. And I think the worst part was when it was time to step through the veil and I was crying the whole time and everyone, I'm sure was like, oh, she's feeling the spirit or whatever. But I was panicking and it was time to go through the veil and she.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] What didn't you like?

Brinley Jensen [00:11:17] I didn't like. And I know to so many members the response is, well, it's because it's not worldly and you're not used to it and it's ancient. But it was a gut feeling. Even as a fully believing missionary, it was a gut feeling, first of all. And it was that, why, if God loves us all so much, is this the only way to see him again and to be with our families? I was like, what about all these other great people? And I'm like, and this makes me so uncomfortable and like sick. Like I felt awful. And I'm like, God wants me to do this.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] So you're learning handshakes that you're going to need to be able to give to angels in heaven. Your, you're learning penalties or signs and penalties and yeah, but you're also making covenants. You're covenanting consecration, you're covered. Covenanting obedience, the law of chastity. So I mean, I guess I'm, I'm just devil's advocate. I'm saying, hey, you're learning a bunch of handshakes and hand wavy things. But also you're making sacred covenants with God to be righteous. What's not to love? And there's Adam and Eve and, and a little bit of Satan to boot, along with Jesus and God. Right. What's not the love?

Brinley Jensen [00:12:38] And I think my thought, like I thought of that in there and I would say, didn't I promise all this already at baptism? That's exactly what I promised. I was waiting for this like crazy. Like, you have to do this, you have to do this. And I know there's things they used to say and I mean when they said like, you'll never, don't ever laugh loudly. Don't speak ill of other endowed people. And I'm like, no.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] They say don't speak ill of the Lord's anointed, which means never criticize a church leader.

Brinley Jensen [00:13:07] Oh, it does?

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:13:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] It says avoid loud laughter and evil. Speaking of the Lord's anointed, which means never criticize a church leader.

Brinley Jensen [00:13:16] Well, I've done both of those things

John Dehlin [00:13:19] now, but at the time when you hear those things.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:21] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:13:22] It's like, well, I remember asking my mom in the Celestial room. Like, I laugh so loud all the time. And she's like, no, no, no. Like, it just means, like, don't be obnoxious. Like, don't. Like, there's not really an explanation for why you shouldn't laugh loudly. It's basically a reminder to. To be humble and stay in your place and do what you're told is what that sounds like to me. And I didn't like it at all. And I was just like, all these promises I'm making. I had to promise to do all these things to even be able to come on a mission in the first place. Like, so why am I promising again? And why is this the only way? Like, why? If Jesus fulfilled everything when he died and that's what I'm preaching, then why am I adding this on? And I think the worst part was going up to the veil. And I turned to the lady because I didn't know what to do, obviously. And she told me to put my hands through to touch the man on the other side. And I said, I don't want to. And she grabbed my hand, forced it through the veil to grab this man. I can't see. And then he reaches through and grabs me. And I pulled my arm away because I didn't want him to touch. I just felt so, like, violated and uncomfortable. I didn't know what was going on. Like, I don't know why it affected me this way, but it did. And he yanked my arm back. And she said, you need to go through to get to the Celestial room. This is what you need to say. And I don't remember everything you have to say or what you have to do. And she had the part where I'm supposed to say my fake name, Abigail, and. Or my new name. And I just thought, like, that's not my name. Like, I'm Brinley. Don't try. And why do we have to have a fake name? Why do we have to have a new name? And how. They told me I can never tell anyone except my husband, but he can't know mine. And I'm like, I don't have a husband. Like, what are you talking about? Like, it just felt like they were trying to put a new identity on me. Like, this is who you are now. You have to keep these secrets. Like, keep all these promises that you didn't know you were going to make until you came in here. And you're not allowed to talk about it outside of the temple. So there's no real informed consent. And I was Just like. I think I understand why everyone loves the Celestial Room so much. It's because they're finally out of that room that literally I hated because I was so relieved. And I remember sitting in there with my parents and I see another sister who's sobbing and she does not look okay. And I'm like, is she feeling the same things I'm feeling? And they're like talking about it and I'm like, I feel a little bit better now. And as we're walking out, I stopped and looked at myself in the mirror and I was just like, who is that? Like, I'm wearing this veil and these

John Dehlin [00:16:35] clothes, wearing a white dress with a green apron, with kind of what a head.

Brinley Jensen [00:16:41] Head. Little veil thing on the back of my head. And I was just like. It was like an out of body experience. I was like, that is not me. And in that moment I was like, I will never come in here again. And I think that's one of those little steps where I was like, I'm nuanced because I was like, I'm going to be a fully believing member, but I never want to come in here again. And I had said that to a few companions and they're like, you'll get used to it later. And I was like, no, I'm never going back. I never want to feel that way again. Like, I can't say enough how I was like, I'm never going back.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] And you went through a totally sanitized version. They took out all the death penalties where you cut your throat.

Brinley Jensen [00:17:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] Disembowel yourself. They took out the parts where you have to covenant, where you covenant to hearken to your spouse, your male spouse as they covenant with God. The veiling of your face, an evil preacher in the temple. Like, they took out so much.

Brinley Jensen [00:17:36] So much.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] You didn't have to. And it was still hard.

Brinley Jensen [00:17:39] And it was still. I just. Even if it wasn't weird, I think something in me would have still been like, you don't like it here?

John Dehlin [00:17:48] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:17:50] Because it was just. My gut was just like, this place is not for you. That's just how I felt. And so I get home and the first thing they're like, we're getting you straight to the temple. Everything's gonna be great. And I looked at my stake president.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] Wait. Okay, wait. Now we're back.

Brinley Jensen [00:18:08] Yeah, now I'm back from your mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:18:11] And I never. I didn't ever tell my parents that I hated in there because obviously that's concerning to orthodox Mormon parents. And so I'm home, not doing well. And the first thing my stake president says is, you got to go to the temple. And I was like, no. And my parents look at me like, what? And I was like, I'm really scared of the temple. And he's like, oh, okay, you can wait for a while. And I'm like, okay. And in the car my parents are like, why didn't you say anything? I'm like, cuz I didn't want to offend you guys. But like it scared me. And they're like, that's okay, like you'll get used to it. And I don't think they thought anything of it then. But as time went on, like I started feeling uncomfortable wearing my garments and I did not wear them as often and.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] But I was like, so explain why. Like what's not to love about garments? I know, but explain why it just

Brinley Jensen [00:19:08] made me feel not like myself. And as a woman in the church, you don't think you're allowed to want to look good when you're changing in the mirror. So like that seems worldly, but it just made me feel like out of body. I was like, I don't like them. I don't like the symbols on them. I don't like how they make. Like all day long I'm constantly reminded of that horrible memory in the temple because I can constantly feel them on me. It's hot in Utah. Like all day, every day I'm like, oh, that was terrible. I just have to keep remembering that I'm supposed to wear these. And so I'd like skip a few days and then be like, okay, I should probably wear them again. And then like not wear them for a week and then be like, okay, I'll wear them. And then it got to the point where they were just in my drawer and they never came out again. But the point where I was like, because this whole time I, I remember praying about it and feeling like God does not care if I wear these. Like I remember in my car praying out loud and just feeling at peace, like, no, I don't need to wear them. That was how I felt at the time. And so I felt fine going to church and doing all these Mormon things, but just not wearing them and having a few different beliefs. Until one day my dad was, he approached me and he's like, have you been wearing your garments? And my response was, well, that's none of your business. And he's like, well, I am your bishop and was kind of talking to me about it. And he's like, they're important. Like, you covenanted. And that's the first time I remember thinking, like, for a split moment, I was like, I can't be myself in this church. Like, I can't really do whatever I want, can I? And in that moment of panic, I cried. My dad left my room. I closed the door, locked it, got on my phone, and I texted a really nice lady named Heather. And she and her family, I worked for them at a little ice cream shop, and they had left the church when I was a teenager. And I was always so curious about it. I constantly prayed for them to come back, even reached out to them on my mission. But I remember texting her, and I was like, heather, I don't know if I can do this. I don't believe. I don't think. Help me. And then immediately after sending it, I was like, I should not have done that. I'm just having a moment. I'm fine in the church. And so she texts me back, and she's like, yeah, let's go for a drive. And I'm just like. I think I ignored her or like, said, I'm busy or something, because I was like, no, no, I can't talk to her. Because I think a part of me knew if I talked to her, it would all just come crashing down. But from that point forward, I just did everything I could to strengthen my faith. Like I told myself, even if I have to brainwash myself into fully believing again just so I can feel the safe and comfort of staying in the church, pleasing my family, then that's fine. So I would go at night and watch just, like, all the church videos I could find. Inspirational messages, conference talks. I would watch them till, like, late hours of the evening, just in my bed, on my laptop. Like, I fully was fine with the fact that I was trying to brainwash myself. Like, feel the happy feelings, associate them with these videos and regain my faith. That was the plan.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] And that. That isn't the first time you did that. Because on your mission, after you had so much tension with your mission president, it's another example of. Of when you said, I'm doing it again. I'm gonna be faithful again. I'm gonna be good again. And, yeah, shove it all down.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:22] And watching the Holland videos. Yeah, just over and over and over again, like, right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] That's weird that the church. A church doesn't have to brainwash you. Sometimes they can get you to brainwash

Brinley Jensen [00:23:34] yourself because it feels much safer. I think that's what lots of people don't understand is that, like, I wanted nothing more than to just. I was like, if I can brainwash myself into loving everything about the church, then that means I'll love the temple. I'll have my perfect temple marriage. I'll start going to the temple regularly. Like, I'll get over my fears, and everything will be fine. And I remember I had learned a lot about church history by then from my mission.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Let's back up.

Brinley Jensen [00:24:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] So how. What did you learn, and how did you learn it?

Brinley Jensen [00:24:13] So on my mission, I did look at gospel topics a lot.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] What, the gospel topics essays?

Brinley Jensen [00:24:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] Okay. So most Mormons still have never heard of or read the gospel topics, and they're right there. Talk. Talk about how you learned about them and then what you learned from them.

Brinley Jensen [00:24:32] I was trying to find answers because it was towards the end of my mission, and I was, like, really not understanding the whole blacks in the priesthood. And so I read the gospel topics essay on that. Still didn't really feel much better because, I don't know. The gospel topics essays are funny because they openly admit to so many things, but they find a way to make it okay. And so then you're just left confused. And, like, there were so many things. I remember a companion saying, yeah, I struggle with Emma Smith. And I'm like, why? They're like, well, she left the church right after Joseph died, started her own thing. I was like, what? No one told me that. Everyone said she was faithful and state, like, was by his side, full believing, like. And I'm like, well, that's suspicious, isn't it? And then we would listen to Mindy Gledhill all the time, and I was like, I love her. She, like, her music just, like, strengthens my faith. And my companion's like, well, she left the church. And I remember, like, obsessively stalking her Facebook after that. Like, I found her on Facebook, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, my gosh. She left the church.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] We've interviewed Mindy a couple times over.

Brinley Jensen [00:25:55] Yeah, yeah, she's amazing. But just like, anything like that, it would make me so upset. But I just, like, put it on the shelf, like they say. I really was like, I've heard everything by now. Nothing can break my faith. And so when I was home struggling with all this and I decided to look up the CES letter, I was hoping for something that could just be so shocking that I could just, like, hear everything and get over it and go back to my faith. And I'm, like, reading through it. And nothing surprised me. Like the whole time I was like, of course, of course the temple rituals are from Freemasonry. Like, that's why I didn't like it and all these things. And I'm like, like it didn't change anything. And I was like, what the heck? The CS letter is supposed to be like, like if you can get past the CS letter, you can get past anything. And I'm just in the same spot, if that makes sense.

Reading the CES Letter and Loss of Belief

John Dehlin [00:27:02] So you read the CS letter?

Brinley Jensen [00:27:03] Yeah, I like skimmed through it. I was like, I knew that. I knew that.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Wait, wait, wait. What are the things in the CES letter that you remember already knowing or like both knowing and then also learning for the first time?

Brinley Jensen [00:27:18] Yeah, I do need to go back and read it. I'm not going to lie.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Well, just whatever.

Brinley Jensen [00:27:21] But I remember the main thing I wanted to read about was the temple. And that's when I found out about the slitting of throats and all the promises that used to be there. And then when it was talking about Freemasonry and all those hand signals and how that's where it came from. And it literally showed the diagram and I was like, I remember doing those and it's not even, it's not even sacred. It's not even given to Joseph Smith by God. But it just like didn't surprise me. I was like, yeah, okay. And just hearing like I read about all of Joseph Smith wives and Fanny Alger. And Alger Alger. And I was just like.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] And the 14 year olds.

Brinley Jensen [00:28:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] And the sister pairs and the mother daughter pairs. And the polyandry where he married other men's wives.

Brinley Jensen [00:28:14] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] And women who are married to other men, I should say.

Brinley Jensen [00:28:19] Yeah. Because the first time I heard about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy, it was like, well, he was helping them because their husbands were off at war and they needed someone to be like the patriarch of the home. So as the prophet, he was doing his duty. That's all I ever heard. And whenever it was about like a 14 year old bride, I'm pretty sure I watched a Saints Unscripted, where they were like, well, they didn't even. There was no sexual anything. And then you hear other stories about why Oliver Cowdery was really excommunicated and

John Dehlin [00:28:54] for accusing Joseph of adultery. Yeah, because he was having sex with Fanny Alger.

Brinley Jensen [00:28:58] Yes, exactly. Thank you for clarifying. And all these things that I'm just like, this doesn't even surprise me. And the most frustrating part was I was like, I still want to Be Mormon. Like, it's so much easier to just try and set all of this aside and be like, somehow, some way, this is all still true. I'm not raised in a lying religion. Like, for some reason, it had to be hidden from me. Like, I'm just gonna go back. So I would read, like, the CES letter or, like, gospel topics, and then I'd be like, okay, now back to brainwashing myself. And I'd watch hopeworks videos on the church's website about people that went through a faith crisis and came through on the other side after 10 years. And I'm like, yeah, see, I'll be fine. So it was just like, a mental battle constantly, if that makes sense. Like, Joseph Smith did this, but also, like, I like this scripture in the Book of Mormon. And, yeah, I. I don't know what else to say about that other than it was just, like, a mental gymnastics. You hear that phrase a lot when it comes to deconstructing or going through a faith crisis, but it's impossible to understand when you see both sides and you're trying to. To, like, reconcile both of them at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] What about the Book of Mormon? You know, a lot of people say, well, that's. That's the thing. No one can answer the Book of Mormon. So awesome and true. It's. It's impenetrable. So did your. Did you start to question the Book of Mormon? And if so, how or why?

Brinley Jensen [00:30:51] I, at that point, was so exhausted with scriptures and trying to figure out my beliefs, I didn't even. Like, the Book of Mormon wasn't even on my list. I didn't read it. I didn't touch it. I didn't want to think about it. Like, even while I was seriously doubting, I was like, who knows? Maybe the Book of Mormon's true. There's just already so much other history that I'm trying to, like, figure out what I believe right now. The Book of Mormon is, like, the last thing. And then when I would go through it, I wish I brought my Book of Mormon from my mission, because I would write, like, in every controversial section, I'd write a bunch of excuses, like, but they meant this and this and this. Like, in Second Nephi, when it talks about the curse of black skin, I was like, well, maybe they just said this. I had, like, six sticky notes. I was like, maybe this just means, like. Like, someone with lighter skin married someone with darker skin, so then their children had darker skin, and it just changed the generations. And, like, it wasn't Actually a curse. It's just a coincidence. Like, it was just complete. Like, no, that's not what they mean when you can just read it. Just read the words. And it's clearly racist. And so, yeah, it was just a bunch of mental gymnastics I didn't even have the energy for.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] Okay, so what happened next?

Brinley Jensen [00:32:23] So I can't even remember when the exact turning point was, but did your

John Dehlin [00:32:30] mission president's farewell already happened or.

Brinley Jensen [00:32:32] No, that was, like, a few months ago.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Okay, wait.

Brinley Jensen [00:32:35] Yeah, it. I think, like, certain things just started to, like, break me. Like, I couldn't take it anymore. Like, I would go on dates. I remember going on a date with this guy, and immediately after the date, we're kissing or whatever, and he was, like, trying. He wanted to have sex. And I said no. And immediately after, he was like, well, I don't think I can see you anymore because you don't wear your garments. And I was just like, I don't want to date these returned missionaries. Like, this plan that I'm supposed to follow sucks.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] So the missionaries wanted to have sex with you, but also wanted you to wear your garments?

Brinley Jensen [00:33:19] Yeah, exactly. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Like, what? What? That doesn't make any sense. And, like, I wasn't judging him for the fact that he was sexually active. That wasn't a problem. It was the fact that I didn't. I just didn't want to with him. And the fact that he comes back at me about not wearing my garments. And so things like that just started to happen. And I remember, I don't know if Jeffrey Holland's whole musket speech came out on my mission or after I was off my mission. It was around that time. But I went back and read it because I was like, I want to see what this is about. And I was furious, obviously. And I remember talking to my family, and I was like, guys, it was

John Dehlin [00:34:11] August of last year, August 2020.

Brinley Jensen [00:34:14] I had just come home, okay? And I remember talking to my family, and I was like, it's okay to disagree. Like, what he said was wrong. And it was just silence. And I was like, right, guys, Guys, we can disagree with them, right? And then as I'm trying to be, like, a advocate for people coming home from their mission, that stake president or bishop or whoever it was comes out and says, like, here's why. You don't have a choice, and you do have to go on your mission and all these things. It gets to the point where you're just like, I cannot do this anymore. Like, I was sick of trying to force myself. I was sick of going to church. But I kept going anyways to make my family happy. And finally I was talking to my parents one night about all my struggles and about the temple and just everything. And I was like, I just don't know if I can do this anymore. And they're like, well, try not to discount everything. Like, you don't know what Joseph Smith went through. You don't know his whole story. And I'm like, actually, I'm learning his whole story. And finally it got to the point where, like, I had a conversation with them where I basically said, like, I'm done. I can't. I can't go to church. I can't put myself in that situation anymore. It got to the point also where before they knew, I would pretend I was going to the YSA ward, and then I would just go sit outside of the church building in my car and cry for two hours. And, like, I finally. They finally realized I wasn't going the YC ward. But, yeah, it's just such a mental battle. Like, I think people think you're just like, this church is crap. I'm out of here. But really, it's, like, trying so hard to stay because, like, I lost friends from leaving people in my mission that are like, well, I. I don't want to be associated with you anymore if you're gonna have tattoos and not be a member anymore. So it's much. It would have been much easier for me to just pretend and keep going. So that's kind of it. Just, like, slowly, and then all at once, I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I ended up reaching out to Heather again and going to her house and just crying how I needed to tell my family.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] And so Heather, was she a former Mormon? Was she a current Mormon?

Brinley Jensen [00:36:58] Her whole family, they all used to be Mormon, her and her husband and her kids. And they left when I was in high school or junior high. And I remember her sons were like, one was. They're both a little younger than me, and they would talk about Joseph Smith, and I'd be like, I don't want to hear it. That's so offensive. Like, I don't want to hear anything you have to say. Like, I just thought, like, anti took them over. Anti Mormon material took them over.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] But you still loved her.

Brinley Jensen [00:37:30] Yes, of course. Because they were always so nice to me. And I remember thinking, why don't they have, like, a dark countenance like everyone says? Like, why don't they look evil? They are like the nicest people ever. And so they really helped me a lot in, you know, giving me advice on how to tell my family and being really supportive. But yeah, I don't know what else you want me to say about that. It got to that point.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Like, it's nice that you were able to find a support who was outside the church. Right?

Brinley Jensen [00:38:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] Because at that point, everyone in the church, it's like your mission therapist. There's a conflict of interest. Even though your parents love you, there are many Mormon parents that care more about their kids faithfulness than they do about their kids well being.

Brinley Jensen [00:38:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] And I'm not saying your parents didn't care about your well being, but I think parents can be blinded by this, especially if your dad's a bishop. It can be blinded by their faithfulness and not actually seeing you, as Margi would say, and seeing your. Your real mental health needs.

Brinley Jensen [00:38:39] Yeah. It's so true. And I think like every orthodox Mormon parents, like, all they want is for their kids to grow up and be Mormon, follow all the rules, make all those covenants, go through the temple, find a husband or wife that's worthy, have children happily ever after, y' all live together forever. And so I understand how that could be painful, but I also would hope that like any other parent, because mine have been supportive of me, but it's still hard knowing that really what they probably want more than anything is for me to come back to the church. And so I would hope that any parent who has a child leaving the church would think of both sides.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] So you reach a breaking point and you just tell your parents you can't do it anymore and Heather becomes a real support to you.

Brinley Jensen [00:39:43] Yeah. And can I ask you a quick question? Yes. Yes.

Leaving the Church: Tattoos, Tithing, and Lost Friendships

John Dehlin [00:39:46] So this is a total side, but you talk about losing friends because you got tattoos. And I get it because when my, when some of my children started getting tattoos, it was very hurtful or offensive to my Mormon brain. So now to your conditioning. Yeah, to my conditioning. So it was like, this is a bad thing because we had. I had been taught your body's a temple.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] You never want to defile the Lord's holy temple, so you don't get tattoos or extra piercings or any of that stuff.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] And that eventually made it into the Strength of the youth pamphlet and it became Mormon culture. Not only do you not get tattoos, but, you know, women shouldn't get a second ear piercing. And that's been Mormon culture forever.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] And. And if you got a tattoo, your parents would be shocked and disappointed and you could lose friends, which may or may not be shocking to our viewers and listeners.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Just a few weeks ago, the Mormon Church, Dieter Ruktorf Apostle, announced a revision to the for the Strength of the Youth pamphlet, and they took out those rules about no tattoos and no additional piercings.

Brinley Jensen [00:40:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] I'm just wondering what that, what that was like for you to hear that.

Brinley Jensen [00:41:04] Yeah. I didn't watch conference at all.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [00:41:08] And so when I heard of this happening, I was like, are you kidding me? That was honestly my reaction because so many I've had Mormon friends be like, isn't that so exciting? And I'm like, no, because first of all, you should have felt the freedom to do that, whether or not someone else that you've never even met tells you you can or not. And what in God's law and power changed between the five minutes that he announced that, like, God's still the same person he was before. Right. And you're still the same person you were five minutes ago. And Dieter Uchtdorf is still the same person he was five minutes ago. So what really changed? Like, they're just. They know that in my opinion, there's a chance more people will stay in the church if they don't feel like they're being judged for that. But when they say, well, you can pray about it, I still know there's plenty of people that are going to be like, well, God's never going to tell you to do that. And so I'm like, I'm happy that some of these youth hopefully don't feel the same pressure and guilt and shame. But that doesn't take away the 21 years of my life where I felt judged and had hurtful things said to me. And same with all of the people. Like, that doesn't change the young woman's lesson I had where they posted pictures on the board of women with tattoos and piercings and said, like, that's bad. Men will view you as an object if you do that. So to me, it doesn't change anything. Like, it's not. It doesn't fix anything. Just by changing the pamphlet, it was still harmful.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] It might make you lose less friends.

Brinley Jensen [00:43:09] Yeah, true.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] But I guess you could say, should people, Should Christians be abandoning you as friends for tattoos and piercings anyway?

Brinley Jensen [00:43:19] No. Like, it's great. I'm glad that there are youth, like, the way I was that hopefully will be relieved of that pressure to be perfect and maybe be taught to rely on themselves a little more. But it doesn't change the fact that they only get to do it because someone else is saying, okay, you have my permission, but pray about it, and you better make the right decision.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:52] Yeah. It's like, does that achieve sort of body autonomy then?

Brinley Jensen [00:43:58] Yeah, exactly. That's my thoughts on that. I just. They manage to tweak little things to try and please people, but it doesn't really fix the deep rooted problems.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:44:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] Okay. So what, around what month and year did you kind of say, I'm done, then?

Brinley Jensen [00:44:23] I think before I told my family, like, when I really on my own knew I was done, it was probably January. That was the last time I paid tithing of 2022. Yeah. This year.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] So this year, January, we're talking 10 months ago.

Brinley Jensen [00:44:38] Yeah. And even in December, I didn't believe, but I kept paying my tithing.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] What's that about?

Brinley Jensen [00:44:46] Just conditioning, I think. I just was like, I have to. And then finally I was like, no, I don't. I don't want to pay for all these temples and missions and whatever else. And I remember mentioning to someone, like, well, maybe I could just donate to, like, other charities. And they're like, well, God knows where to put his money. Like, that's why you give it to the church. I'm like, does he? Because I didn't really like the things that my money was going to.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] LGBT stuff. Fighting. Fighting same sex marriage. Marriage equality.

Brinley Jensen [00:45:25] Yeah. Because when the church talks about tithing, they show videos of the yellow helping hands and all of that. But I served in Florida in hurricane season. I never saw helping hands shirts. It's the communities that come together and fix everything. Really. And so I just remember thinking, like, so what does this money go to? Because I'm where they're saying it's happening on the coast in a hurricane, and it's really just communities coming together, not the church.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] Yeah. And then when you see that the actual money is going to fight same sex marriage, to lobby Supreme Court justices, to lobby congressmen to take away rights from minorities.

Brinley Jensen [00:46:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Then it's really hard to pay your tithing to the church.

Brinley Jensen [00:46:17] Yeah. And it hurts that I was willingly giving that money, not knowing that I was contributing to that hurt of other people.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Okay, all right. So 10 months ago you stopped paying tithing.

Brinley Jensen [00:46:32] Yeah. 10 months ago.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] Yeah. Did you keep trying to date Mormon boys?

Brinley Jensen [00:46:38] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:46:42] Just because I've had. I've had so many men in the church who will say, like, well, I don't mind that you're not Mormon. But then they want to take me out, and they're bearing their testimony to me, and I'm like, well, this just makes me uncomfortable. So, no, I've let go of the patriarchal blessing life plan, so that's good. But I think a lot of the things that have happened since have just kind of solidified my feelings. Lots of different experiences.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] That would mean dating non Mormon or either not dating or dating other people that weren't more.

Brinley Jensen [00:47:24] Yeah, non Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] And that. That means probably having to confront the teachings around sexuality and the law of chastity that you had believed for so long.

Brinley Jensen [00:47:35] Yeah, for sure. And I think that's also one of the biggest things is letting go of purity culture. That I'm inherently bad is basically what that tells me.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] What was that process? Like, how did that go? Like, take us through decisions or, like, steps in that process?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:58] You may be still in process.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] Well, I'm just saying the first hour of our conversation was kind of about that.

Brinley Jensen [00:48:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] So you're kind of deconstructing those messages, learning to listen to yourself and learning to make decisions on your own. But again, you may not either have started processing that or you may not want to talk about it.

Brinley Jensen [00:48:18] So whatever you're comfortable. Yeah, I'll only say what I'm comfortable with for sure. But it's definitely hard. I remember on my mission, even some sisters and I, when we were looking for Christian accounts, we found she's a more. She's a member of the Mormon Church, and I forget her name. So sorry if she ever hears this, but she calls herself the Christian Sex Educator online. And we were, like, looking at her stuff, and she's talking about, like, deconstructing purity culture. And I was like, she's Mormon. Like, is this allowed to, like, as a woman, talk about even enjoying sex? I was like, that is actually unheard of, but. And it was actually cool, the conversations that we would have, myself and my companion and two other sisters that served in area similar to us, and just talking about it and realizing that, like, we all have the same experiences and, like, it almost became funny. Like. Like, you had that happen to you growing up too. Like, you felt guilty about that too, and it's just, like, normal. And even now you talk about masturbation. Yeah. Just anything inherently sexual at all. And, like, it's crazy to see how different someone's childhood is growing up outside of the church. Like, one of my really good friends right now, like, we talk about this all the time, and she's like, that Was like a topic with friends, like outside of the church, like with boys and anything. Like just so normal and healthy and just everyday life. And so it was like integrated.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:06] It was viewed as like part of the journey, part of.

Brinley Jensen [00:50:09] Part of growing up.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:11] Inherent.

Brinley Jensen [00:50:11] Yes. Yeah, definitely. And so I think I had to slowly. I remember the first time I had a sexual experience with another person post mission. I threw up after when I got home and I felt like something was wrong with me and like I was the worst person ever. And I remember I was like, I need to put a stop to this, first of all. And this was even still when I was trying to stay in the church and I wrote down affirmations like, I am not guilty, I am not shameful, like I am not wrong, I am smart, I'm kind, whatever. And I repeated them to myself for a week straight until I didn't feel sick thinking about it. And I had to do that for like months to be like, there's nothing wrong with me, I'm not a sinner, God doesn't hate me. I had to do that constantly. So, I mean, thank God for affirmations, but they work. But it's sad that I literally had to like rewire my brain to not be like, there's something wrong with you, you're going against God's will, that kind of thing.

Unlearning Purity Culture and Reclaiming Sexuality

John Dehlin [00:51:36] You're de. Programming yourself from toxic purity culture. Christianity?

Brinley Jensen [00:51:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Mormonism?

Brinley Jensen [00:51:42] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. Did you have any questions?

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Yeah. So you, so you, you worked to rid yourself of toxic purity culture.

Brinley Jensen [00:51:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] And I guess positive sexual health.

Brinley Jensen [00:52:00] Yeah, definitely.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:02] And kind of reclaimed. Reclaimed a piece of yourself?

Brinley Jensen [00:52:06] Yeah, my body reclaimed my own body, definitely.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:11] And your sexuality, your own desire?

Brinley Jensen [00:52:14] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:15] Your own, you know, pleasure?

Brinley Jensen [00:52:19] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] And the church teaches in the Book of Mormon and elsewhere, there's this saying, wickedness never was happiness.

Brinley Jensen [00:52:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] And so if you're in any way being sexual outside the bonds of a straight marriage, according to the church, that's evil next to murder. But how has that impacted your mental health and well being to become. To destigma fight, to sorry. To de. Stigmatize your sexuality and to be. Become educated about sexuality and empowered around sexuality. How's that been for your mental health

Brinley Jensen [00:52:56] and well being at first? Like, I mean, the whole wickedness never was happiness thing just tells you that you're wicked then, you know. And so that was definitely not good on my mental health. Obviously, if I'm becoming physically sick just at the thought of my own sexuality, but letting go of that and rewiring How I think about it is honestly just liberating. And then it's like, well, if wickedness never was happiness, it must not be wicked, because I'm happy. So, yeah, I. That's the word that first comes to my mind is liberating. Empowering, makes me more sure of myself, helps me not to let others walk all over me. Because up until I let go of those beliefs, it was a bunch of old white men controlling how I felt about my sexuality. And that makes me uncomfortable.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:57] That's such a good point.

Brinley Jensen [00:53:59] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] Yeah, there's a. And we're going to talk about a lot of stuff, but just while we're on this topic, there's a flip side, which was kind of how we started that. There's STIs out there, there's abuse, there's assault, there's unwanted pregnancies. And so it's not like the secret to joy is having uncontrolled, unprotected sex with anyone that you want to. Right. So, I mean, there was at least some good intention in the church trying to. So. So how are you? But then if you don't have God or the church controlling you, I guess someone would say, well, then there's a risk of you going out of control and hurting yourself or others.

Brinley Jensen [00:54:44] Yeah, it's true. And that's why I think instead of shaming, if the church is so worried, or if any Christian is so worried about things like that, then educate yourself and your children if you have them or if you're in a leadership position, educate the people you're leading. Because I remember my 8th grade health class in Utah, and it was never have sex. Don't even hug too close, because then you'll get pregnant. And abortions are bad. So you can't get an abortion. So you're stuck with a kid. And you'll probably have STDs. And that's all. That's all I heard. And so, first of all, it made me extremely judgmental towards anyone I knew in junior high or high school who was sexually active. And these kids aren't getting the help and education they need to stay safe. Because all they've been told is, don't do this. But they're gonna do it anyways. Cause that's what they wanted to do. So ultimately, people are gonna make their own decisions. But the only thing we can control is. The only thing they can control is how they feel about themselves as a result of these decisions and how they can protect themselves based on the education they've received. So I think that's the mistake that the church has made. It's great to wait until marriage or to be with one person or to be safe.

John Dehlin [00:56:21] But if, if you want that.

Brinley Jensen [00:56:23] Yeah, if that's what you want. Because there's absolutely ways to be safe and to respect yourself and others. But it's too bad that the church does not provide that education. Instead, it's just don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] And for those who want to become more educated, have there been any resources you can recommend for healthy sexual education?

Brinley Jensen [00:56:50] Yeah, like Planned Parenthood. Big advocate for that. I remember hearing about one of my friends on the mission who said that she. She's like, yeah. Before the mission, I would regularly get tested in between partners. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I didn't know people did that. And I didn't know that someone could be sexually active and then go on a mission. But I think there's like, education is so easy to find if you just look for it. Like, you don't have to find it from your parents or someone you don't want to tell about it. Like, go look up Planned Parenthood on Instagram. Go to their link. Boom.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:57:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Any other resources for sexual health and education that were important to you?

Brinley Jensen [00:57:43] I think when I followed the Christian sex educator, she. For like young Christian youth and even people that are married, like, if someone wants a Christian based education that makes them feel comfortable, that is respectful of people that want to wait for marriage or who don't. I thought she had really good resources because her content made me feel comfortable with myself and she's very candid. And for someone who was a believing Mormon and still wanted to discover myself in that way, I thought she was very helpful and very safe and comfortable.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] Okay.

Brinley Jensen [00:58:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] Okay. While we're on this topic you mentioned and we can come back. Well, you mentioned learning from some of your. Some of the elders that had served in your mission.

Brinley Jensen [00:58:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] That they got some under the table, some leeway back, sort of whispered advice from your mission president that you weren't aware of at the time. Yes, back. Back up and just tell the story because this is going to be a TikTok and Instagram short for sure. Because. So let's start by you learning your whole life that masturbation's evil.

Brinley Jensen [00:59:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] You feeling shame about it. So.

Brinley Jensen [00:59:05] Oh, for sure, Start there. Absolutely. That was something that, I don't know if I want to say it traumatized me because in comparison to the other things I've experienced, that is significantly smaller. But it definitely affected a huge part of who I was and how I felt about myself. The narrative around masturbation and sexuality in general that I received from the church. And so then to get home from my mission, lose my faith, be growing, finding myself feeling comfortable in myself again, and I start reconnecting with other missionaries from my mission who have left the church or who are doubting. And I've had. The first time someone told me, I wasn't even sure if I believed them. But an elder I served with was talking to me, and he said that our mission president told him, if you struggle with masturbation, just keep it to once a week and you're good. And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. I got in trouble for wearing leggings on the beach or accused of flirting. And these elders, as long as they keep it to once a week, they're good. And that was something I felt so guilty about my whole life. And so I almost didn't believe him the first time. The first time someone told you. Until I reconnect with a few others and hear the same thing. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. It's almost funny. It's not very funny because it sends a message to women of the church and to women in my mission that they aren't allowed to be sexual in any way. You don't. You can't even wear leggings because they're too tight. But the elders, if they just can't help themselves, can masturbate once a week and they're solid. That just shocked me that I'd spent so much time just beating myself up over the tiniest things.

John Dehlin [01:01:09] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:09] But men can get away with it because they're inherently sexual and they can't help it.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] So there's some young Mormon men or women who either choose not to serve missions or are denied the ability to serve a mission, depending on how strict their bishop or stake president is, it changes the trajectory of their entire lives, maybe in a good way, maybe in a bad way, just because they can't stop masturbating. And so you've got this awful toxic leadership roulette system now within Mormonism where you've got super strict bishops or mission presidents that'll keep you from a mission or send you home for masturbating.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] And then you've got other mission presidents that are saying, ah, once a month is fine.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] That's outrageous.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:53] It is outrageous.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Yeah. And abusive.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:01:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] All right, well, that'll be A tick tock short, for sure.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:01] Yeah. Very interesting.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] I hope every young Mormon man and woman. Woman will watch that short.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:09] I hope so, too. Maybe it'll make them feel a little bit better that some mission president out there is fine with it.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] I mean, I'm sure at some level that mission president was told. I mean, so many people are coming, so many Mormon missionaries are coming home early, but the church is. It's with tattoos, piercings, but also masturbation and porn. They're having to adjust or they're going to lose everybody.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] And so I bet it wasn't just that mission president. I bet an area authority or in the training, he picked that up from somewhere. Yeah, they don't want to let that out broadly. But I guarantee it wasn't just your mission president.

Brinley Jensen [01:02:42] Oh, for sure. And the other thing too is all these mission presidents, bishops, stake presidents are told, like, use your personal revelation, pray about it, and you'll know what to do. And so it's like, so one mission president could pray about it and be like, if I find out anyone's masturbating, they're sent home immediately. But then my mission president prays about it and it's like, well, the elders can do it because I know it's probably really hard for them.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:08] Yeah, the inconsistency, right?

Brinley Jensen [01:03:10] Yes. Very inconsistent.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Brinley Jensen [01:03:15] Of course.

Faith Deconstruction and Rebuilding Personal Values

John Dehlin [01:03:17] Okay, so moving on from kind of your sexual health and elimination of sexual shame, let's talk. Let's continue with your story, the timeline and your, your processing.

Brinley Jensen [01:03:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] Deconstruction and reconstruction. So, yeah, like, where should we go? Should we talk about where your faith proceeds, your other choices in your life? Like you were going to go to byu, Idaho, Hawaii. Sorry, byu. Like, where. Where should we go in your story next?

Brinley Jensen [01:03:49] Well, if we did back it up a little bit, soon after I got on for my mission, I did apply for BYU Hawaii while I was still little. Like, I was like, I believe. And I thought it was so funny because my patriarchal blessing says, like, you'll travel to pursue your higher education. And my whole life I was like, BYU Hawaii. Like, I sealed the deal. God told me, I'm going to BYU Hawaii. And when I got the rejection letter, I was so relieved because I knew I wouldn't last because I just hear all these stories. I actually had a girl I worked with tell me she hated it because she couldn't wear what she felt comfortable wearing in the heat of Hawaii and the humidity. You're on an island and you have to make sure. There's no holes in your jeans and you don't wear sandals on campus and to cover up, don't be seen in a bikini.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] And as a college student.

Brinley Jensen [01:04:53] As a college student, yes. And yeah. In the wake of, like, being more confident and comfortable in myself and trusting myself more, it. I was disappointed. Like, I had wanted to get in, but when I got the rejection letter and I read it, I was like, I'm so glad I didn't go there because, I mean, you have to take religion classes. Like, I would have been just in agony. So I didn't get into byu Hawaii. And that kind of allowed me to keep going with my path, trusting myself, making decisions because I wanted to make them. Like piercing my nose because I thought it was cute. And it doesn't matter because no one can tell me that I can't. Which seems so small, especially to someone that maybe has never understood, like the Mormon Church or even other high demand religions telling you what to do. But when you finally, like, no one's stopping me from going and getting a tattoo. I could go get one right now and I wouldn't cry and beat myself up about it. Like, I wish I could go back and tell my mission self that she was gonna be so confident and that she could do whatever she wanted and not cry about it or throw up and that would all be okay. Because that's like the most liberating part.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:31] And I love thinking about her too, because in a way, she was practicing. She was flexing some of those muscles then. For you to be here now. Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:06:41] I love that you say that. Thank you. Because I don't think I realized that I was doing that, but I was. And it's crazy how much easier it is to stand up for yourself and stand your ground when, like, I don't need an organization to back me up. Like, I have. I'm on my own two feet.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:03] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:07:03] I have myself. So that's very empowering.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] I mean, that's the theme of today, is brainwashing yourself, silencing yourself, suppressing yourself, hiding yourself, conforming and then breaking out of that. And self discovery and self empowerment.

Brinley Jensen [01:07:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] That's probably the main. That's the. That's the human. That's the great human. That's the hero's journey.

Brinley Jensen [01:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] Of the human experience.

Brinley Jensen [01:07:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:07:37] And you start to realize, like, the world is so much bigger than the Mormon Church. Like, it's such a relief to be able to say that I'm an ally.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] Lgbt.

Brinley Jensen [01:07:50] Yeah. Yes. And not have to be like, But I am Mormon. But, like, I don't believe some of those things. Like, I really do love you guys. Like, that just sounds so condescending and ingenuine. And I can finally. And I'm not saying that there aren't Mormon allies, because I know there are and there are great people who are trying to make a change, but when it comes down to it, it's not the culture of the church that says two women can't be together, it's the doctrine. And so it's so refreshing to be able to pick my own worldviews with no. Like, wait, does that go along with what the prophet says? I don't know. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:35] One thing that I do want to just pick up really quickly because you mentioned your beautiful nose ring.

Brinley Jensen [01:08:42] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:43] Is just also that's. It feels like picking up a thread from before as well. When, you know, so all the time and energy, that kind of. And focus that went into our bodies in a way that we received from the outside, right about shoulders or what you can wear or what how people, men would feel looking at, you know, if the hem is too short or that this idea of taking your image, your expression of who you are and accepting that from an outside source there is something incredibly healing about expressing from the inside out. And that's. Can be piercings that can be tattoos, that can be clothing, that can be hair. It can be, you know, but it's not a small thing. It is not a trivial thing. When you come from a tradition of being told on some level who to be, how to, you know, project, how to, you know, express yourself in a really, really confined, controlled, small space.

Brinley Jensen [01:09:55] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:55] So I love how you, you know, have. Have done that and hope to ask you a little later about some of, you know, some more about that. But yeah, yeah, it is empowering.

Brinley Jensen [01:10:08] Thank you. It's like a weight off your shoulders almost that you're in control of your own body now. And of course, every, like everyone has control over their own body, but there's no, like, ulterior motive anymore. You're doing what you want because you want to, and it makes you happy.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:31] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:10:32] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:33] Yeah. Can I ask you a question around transition too? How has it been for you to shift from a place where so much of your life was planned, you know, so moving from this place of like, very highly structured, highly planned out, a formula that was in play. How has it been for you to shift away from that amidst transition?

Brinley Jensen [01:11:03] Sometimes scary because I mentioned in the part one that I didn't even think I was going to grow old. I thought it was do my Mormon purpose, and then Jesus will come and I'm good. But I think now it's really freeing to know, like, that I can choose whatever life path makes me happiest. And I still don't even know what all that entails yet. But I think it allows me to just live in the moment because I'm finally allowed to say, I don't want to be married right now. I don't want to get married at 21. Like, I want to live my life and do things that make me happy. And there's nothing wrong with that. And it's, like, amazing to admit that and that I don't have to do anything that I don't want to do. I can enjoy living in the space that I'm given right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:01] Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Brinley Jensen [01:12:04] Yeah. That was a good question.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:07] And can I say so earlier you mentioned something about the comfort of, you know, being in a church that had all the answers. Do you remember that part?

Brinley Jensen [01:12:19] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:20] Yeah. And I'm curious how it feels for you to be in a space of it. It feels like living. Living. A lot of questions.

Brinley Jensen [01:12:30] Yeah. At first, that also really scared me, but I think, like, I keep saying liberating and freeing, but those are the words that come to mind when you let go of that security. That was. I mean, it was holding me down, really. It felt safe, but it's really confining. When you're told the answers to everything, you don't get to find them out for yourselves. I think there's a quote at the beginning of the CES letter that's like, if it's true, then nothing can hurt it, but if it's not true, then it should be questioned. And so if that kind of makes sense with my answer, like, I'm allowed to question things now and figure out my own beliefs. And so not having the answers to everything is really scary if you're worried about the same things that worried you when you're a part of that organization, if that makes sense. So now, like, I don't believe that a loving God would stop me from being with my family forever. So I'm not worried about what is going to happen or what afterlife is like or any of that, because living in the moment is more important to me than worrying, if that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:06] Have you. Have you come back? Have you come quite naturally to this place of living in the moment? You've mentioned it a few times. Yeah. I'm curious, is that a Result of work you've done. Has it been kind of through you've read? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Like podcasts.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:25] Tell us a little bit about that.

Brinley Jensen [01:14:27] I think a lot of it is from therapy because naturally for me as a person, it's easy to worry, to have anxiety over things, to think what if? But I've learned a lot from therapy about living in the moment because it's exhausting if you don't like. It really is exhausting to constantly think, like, what do all these Mormons think of me now that I'm going on a Mormon Stories podcast? What do they, like, what is gonna happen with my future in Utah as a girl with tattoos and piercings and all those types of things?

John Dehlin [01:15:13] Bikinis.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:14] Yeah, and bikinis and tank tops and any of those things.

John Dehlin [01:15:18] Shoulders.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:19] Yeah, my shoulders showing. It's easy to worry about those things, but it's almost easier if you just let it all go and think, like, I'm finally to a place where that's not my responsibility to worry about anymore. Like, if people are going to be upset by my decisions, that's their weight to carry, not mine.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:44] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:45] So I can just go forward with my life, try my best to be happy, treat others with kindness. It's all I have to worry about.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:55] Mmm, I love that.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:57] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:57] That's almost a boundaries thing.

Brinley Jensen [01:15:59] Yes, it is. It is definitely a boundaries thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:01] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:16:02] Like, especially with family, you have to be okay with the fact that some things that you do might upset them.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:11] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:16:11] Even if you're not trying to intentionally hurt them, which, like, obviously I would never want to hurt my family, but I have to be okay with the fact that they aren't okay with me leaving the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:25] How do you. I mean, I know 60 year olds who haven't been able to do that. How have you been able to do it?

Brinley Jensen [01:16:31] Become okay.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] Yeah. With your family being unhappy with you

Brinley Jensen [01:16:35] or disappointed in you, it's still hard. Like, there's ups and downs. Like, it's easy for me to say right now, but then if we're in the middle of a tough conversation, then obviously it's upsetting. I think it goes back to affirmations and more in the way of just reminding myself constantly and validating myself and surrounding myself with people who also validate that and knowing, like, there have been people who have hurt me with things they've said were done, but they were just making decisions that were best for themselves. Like, isn't that what we're all trying to do? And so I just have to give myself grace because I know the church is not a good place for me to be. I don't believe in any of its truth claims. So why would I keep myself in that for other people? Because I know they want my happiness, and if they really do, then they'll support me not being in that space.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:38] So.

John Dehlin [01:17:40] So I, you know, my brain is so programmed Mormon that I'm 53, excommunicated, and viewed as one of the Mormon Church's biggest enemies.

Brinley Jensen [01:17:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] A ton of believers and missionaries watch Mormon stories.

Brinley Jensen [01:17:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] I've still never tried beer. I've still never tried marijuana. I, you know, like, I am such a Mormon boy. In. In all, I've never tried psychedelics. So, like, my brain still flashes danger. My brain still. My programmed brain still flashes danger with piercings and tattoos.

Brinley Jensen [01:18:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:25] But when it comes to, like, sex outside marriage, like, I'm. I'm supportive of it.

Brinley Jensen [01:18:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:34] But my brain still flashes danger.

Brinley Jensen [01:18:36] Oh, yes, I understand that for sure.

John Dehlin [01:18:37] But then when you add alcohol and drugs and psychedelics and, And. And then people are experimenting with ethical non monogamy, you know, things, you know.

Brinley Jensen [01:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:48] Outside of, even, Even in a. Outside of committed relationships, like.

Brinley Jensen [01:18:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:54] In my mind, there's still like this. You could get addicted to drugs. You could. You could put yourself in danger. You could get STIs, and you could. That. I used to tell this metaphor as a Mormon, that the string is the best thing for a kite because the string is what allows the kite to fly. If the kite, if you snip, the kite may think, I want freedom, I want liberation. And so cut this gosh dang string for me so I can really be free to fly. But what I would always say in my metaphor is, well, guess what happens to the kite when you cut all the strings? It falls to the ground and crashes to the ground.

Brinley Jensen [01:19:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:37] So the string may feel like constraints, but really it's. It allows for freedom because you were not smart enough to make all these decisions. And all these things that the Church warned us against can be risky.

Brinley Jensen [01:19:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:51] And can be dangerous. And once you're free to take as much drugs as you want, have as much sex with as many people as you want, and, you know, experiment in all the possible ways, you could end up in really deep trouble. And it's not like all you got to do is leave Mormonism and you're happy, you can. I've seen many, many, many, many people leave Mormonism and be happy and healthy, healthier and happier. And I've seen several people get addicted to alcohol Wreck their lives, get addicted to drugs, get in abusive relationships or just like, not go to school, not have purpose and meaning.

Brinley Jensen [01:20:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:30] Not have any community, get lonely, get depressed, become isolated and lose their sense of purpose or drive, even if they don't mess with all that other stuff. But then usually they do mess with all that other stuff to self medicate once they're depressed and anxious and have no meaning and purpose. So my, my question to you is like, what if it's dangerous? What if you end up thinking that you have freedom but you really end up harming your life more than it would have been harmed if you had stayed in the church? Have you thought about that?

Brinley Jensen [01:21:02] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] That was a long question.

Brinley Jensen [01:21:04] No, that was a good question. I would say you can still have your kite and your string, but I feel like I've just changed what my string is because there are so many things the church protects from that are dangerous. Like how you said you can get addicted to drugs or alcohol or STDs or STIs. But there's also lots of things that the church not forces upon you, but trains you to do that are also dangerous. Like the way that the church allows youth to view themselves and that negative self, that it's better to think of yourself negatively and be hard on yourself to become a better person than to give yourself grace and allow yourself to grow in a healthy, normal way. And so I think no matter where you go, no matter what religion it is, in or out, there's always something dangerous. Because I was living the standards of the church. Exactly. And I almost died.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:12] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:22:13] And so there's always going to be something that you can't be protected from. There's always new and scary things. And that's why I think the string of the kite to go along with the metaphor can be whatever boundaries that you need to set for yourself. And that's why it can be scary to leave the church, because you have to figure out for yourself, like, how to. How you want to live and how you're going to keep yourself safe and protect your boundaries. And so it doesn't matter where you go or what you believe, you're always going to have to have boundaries. And like, there's nothing wrong with a moral code, obviously. But the part that is freeing about leaving the church is that you get to decide your own moral code. You get to decide how you're going to be ethical in the world. And as long as that isn't harming yourself or other people, then there's nothing wrong with Doing it your own way.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:23] Yeah, I love that.

Brinley Jensen [01:23:25] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:26] Yeah. Many ways to do that, many paths.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] So in the spirit of reconstruction, are you comfortable sharing some elements of your moral code?

Brinley Jensen [01:23:34] Yeah, for sure. I think a big part of it is how I choose to treat other people. And like, I. I'm never going to make someone feel. I think something I've told myself is I never want to speak to people the way I thought about them when I was Mormon, because I. I may not have meant to treat people in an unkind way, but I've actually been thinking about this so much lately because people from my high school have been finding my TikTok, and some of those people are great humans who were never members of the church that probably felt judged by me in high school when I was this, like, very openly Mormon girl who wanted everyone else to be Mormon. And I know I was judgmental towards people who were doing drugs of any kind or drinking or having sex or anything. And beside the point that you shouldn't drink underage and all those types of things. It wouldn't matter how old they were or what point of life I was in when I had those beliefs, I would have judged them no matter what. And so, so much of who I am now is I want people to come to me as they are and I'll love them without wanting anything to change about them. And so instead of focusing so much on what other people are doing, I think my moral code now is to focus on what I'm doing. And as long as I feel happy and healthy, safe, then I know I'm good. And as long as, no, I don't want anyone to feel judged or hurt by me or like, I'm not a safe space, as long as I'm there, I feel like I'm following my moral compass, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] Yeah. Like, as I'm thinking about what it means to be a Mormon, what it meant for me to be a Mormon in terms of what was the highest priority. It actually wasn't about how I treated people. I mean, I'm not saying that Mormons don't believe it's important to treat people well. I think, yeah, most Mormons do believe it's important to treat people well. Except when they lose their faith, weirdly.

Brinley Jensen [01:26:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] But. But for me, my moral code as a Mormon was don't drink alcohol, don't smoke, don't. Don't do drugs, don't have premarital sex, don't masturbate. That was like the. Don't drink coffee and tea oh, for sure. Were the most crucial things. And then like, you know, if you're doing all that and you've got extra cycles, then be kind to people, you know.

Brinley Jensen [01:26:36] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Right.

Brinley Jensen [01:26:37] It's better, it was like it's better for me to be a rude person judgmental than God forbid, taste some coffee.

John Dehlin [01:26:48] Right? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:50] I think what's hard is that when you grow up, you know, in a system that teaches you to be self critical and where you're constantly assessed and evaluated all the time, so really you're just one decision away from, you know, shame and being, you know, deemed not worthy. It's really difficult to extend to other people what you don't have for yourself.

Brinley Jensen [01:27:21] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:22] So, so many times the way we show up for other people is really just a reflection of how we show up for ourselves. So it makes sense I guess is what I'm saying why it's so deeply problematic.

Brinley Jensen [01:27:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:37] The judging thing, it's so true. Because we are so we, we grew up in a system that was all about judging and assessing ourselves all the time.

Brinley Jensen [01:27:46] It's true. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] Okay. So for you it's about kindness and it's about self awareness, self knowledge and making decisions that are, that are congruent with your sense of mental health and well being.

Brinley Jensen [01:28:03] Yeah, precisely.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:07] That's so beautiful.

Brinley Jensen [01:28:08] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] Markie likes that.

Healing, Spirituality, and Life After Mormonism

Margi Dehlin [01:28:10] I have a question around.

John Dehlin [01:28:12] I do too.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:16] You know, coming out of again, kind of your experience of having other people want a certain life for you, wanting, you know, roles for you, an identity for you, so you kind of coming out of that kind of recently. I mean this is, this is pretty recent, this transition work, but I would love to hear, you know, so far what you have decided to want in this moment. What, what are you wanting for yourself in this moment?

Brinley Jensen [01:28:55] Yeah, the thing that is most important to me is definitely protecting my peace. So I saw a quote once that was like, I will not ever again sit in a place or organization or state of mind that allows me in any way to betray myself. And so I think right now I'm 21 years old, I feel like I've been given the gift of not necessarily starting over, but having a fresh view. Because if my life path, path would have went how I thought it was going to go, I wouldn't be thinking this way. Now I'd be on the hunt trying to get a priesthood holder so we could get married and have babies forever. But that's not what I want. And so I feel like, because I have this opportunity to kind of go with the flow in life how I want to. I want to make sure I'm spending every moment giving myself what I deserve and only accepting from others what I deserve and protecting my peace.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:27] I love that for you.

Brinley Jensen [01:30:29] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:29] And that makes so much sense.

Brinley Jensen [01:30:31] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:32] Given all that we've heard. Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:30:35] It's very important.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:36] Can I ask a question kind of related, which would be, you know, what does healing look like for you right now?

Brinley Jensen [01:30:46] Yeah, it kind of goes along with what I just said. Like, anytime I find myself falling back into those negative thinking patterns or feeling those feelings of anxiety and depression again, kind of being taken back to those scary and horrible and confusing moments on my mission and during my faith crisis. I think healing for me is remembering to ground myself, reminding myself who I am and what I deserve and that I'm not. I am not just my experiences and the bad things that have happened to me. So, yeah, it kind of just goes along with protecting my peace. Like, as long as I'm focusing on that, I know that I'm healing in some way from the things that have happened.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:44] Yeah. And what does ground you?

Brinley Jensen [01:31:49] The ground? Like.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:51] Yeah, grounding.

Brinley Jensen [01:31:52] Yeah, grounding. Like. Yeah, it sounds silly, but just, like, doing the things that make me happy, like, being out in nature. Like, if I feel that way, I'm like, I need to get my feet on the ground outside. Like, remember that I'm just a tiny speck in the universe and that things aren't as serious as I used to think they were, that every tiny step isn't going to determine my fate in heaven forever. Like, that's a big weight to carry as a teenage girl. And the fact that I can remind myself, like, I'm just doing what makes me happy and keeping my feet on the ground, literally grounding myself. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:38] Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] Okay. So do you have hopes and dreams for yourself now? Do you? We talked about what you envisioned your life being for yourself as you graduated from high school and were contemplating a mission.

Brinley Jensen [01:32:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Do you have a vision for yourself now? And if so, what is it?

Brinley Jensen [01:33:03] I'm currently trying to figure that out. Not gonna lie, Just sitting with the discomfort of not knowing. But look at you.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:11] That is just brilliant.

Brinley Jensen [01:33:13] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:13] It's amazing. We're all there whether we want to.

Brinley Jensen [01:33:15] Yeah, everyone is in some way. But I know I want to be a leader in some way because in. Especially in leaving the church, I've found leadership skills in myself that had to be pushed down. And I even was told. I was like, oh, you're. You're a leader? Like, you have so much potential, like every kid does. But as a woman in the church, there's not much you can do with that unless you want to tell other women to be sweet and obedient for the rest of your life. And I'm not putting down any female leaders in the church, obviously, but I want to be able to have a voice outside of Mormonism spread. Good. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Okay. So you're not sure yet whether that means school or doesn't. If it does mean school, what degree?

Brinley Jensen [01:34:24] Yeah, exactly. That's the problem.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:27] There's plenty of time.

Brinley Jensen [01:34:28] There is plenty of time.

John Dehlin [01:34:29] How old are you now?

Brinley Jensen [01:34:30] I'm 21.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] Okay. Yeah, plenty of time.

Brinley Jensen [01:34:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:33] Okay. All right. So I guess people always want to know what your beliefs. You know, there's a lot of Christians who want Mormon ex Mormons to still believe in God and Jesus. There's a lot of Mormons believing Mormons that still want us to leave in God and Jesus. But then there's just always the question of, like, what do you still have a sense of spirituality now? And if so, how. How are your beliefs reconstructed? What do you want to say about spirituality and belief, if anything?

Brinley Jensen [01:35:06] Yeah, I would say I'm definitely a very spiritual person. And I think that's what's stuck with me. I think I was all along, but I was changing it to conform to Mormonism. But now, instead of wondering what someone else would want me to do, I believe in myself more than anything and trust myself and my intuition and my gut feeling more than anything. And I believe that everyone. I mean, it's kind of an obvious thing to say that everyone should be seen as equal. But I. It feels good to let go of the belief that as a part of the Mormon Church, that I'm elite and I'm the best of the world, when really there's so much to learn from everyone else and their beliefs and what, like, gives them purpose, if that. Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [01:36:15] Yeah. I mean, ironically, one of the things Jesus said is the kingdom of God is within. And whether or not you believe in a literal Jesus or literal atonement or any of that stuff.

Brinley Jensen [01:36:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:28] His teachings say look within, not, not externally. And he was critical of the religious.

Brinley Jensen [01:36:34] Very critical.

John Dehlin [01:36:35] Right?

Brinley Jensen [01:36:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:36] And he was encouraging the inner knowledge and the inner introspection. And that's not. Not to try and teach you as a Christian, but I mean, that actually is Christ consistent from what, how.

Brinley Jensen [01:36:49] And I definitely the teachings, the actual teachings of Jesus Christ, the person, whether or not you believe he's God, are Good. And something that I thought was funny or cool or something metaphorically for me was that in the Bible, when Christ died, the temple crumbled to the earth. And even when I went through the temple, I kind of thought, if he died, and Christians believe he fulfills all. When he died. When he died, yeah. And the temple, like, crumbled to the earth. It was almost like it wasn't needed anymore. And so I feel like my temple crumbled to the ground when I realized, like, I don't need the church. And. Yeah. If that makes sense. I think about that a lot because as a believing Mormon, I was always like, why do we have temples if it crumbled to the earth when he died? Because he fulfilled everything. And so now I'm like, my temple crumbled. I don't. I fulfilled it myself. I don't need. I don't need the Mormon Church.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:58] I love that.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] And what about any church?

Brinley Jensen [01:38:02] Maybe I don't need any church. No. Okay, just to clarify, I definitely think there's something about leaving the Mormon Church that disables a lot of people for trusting organized religion anymore, which is kind of how I am. But I like to be my own leader.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] I mean, I guess you'd never say never, because sometimes people do come back to religion or the church.

Brinley Jensen [01:38:26] It's true. And no disrespect to them, and I don't know my future, but as of right now, as of this moment, I don't have a lot of trust for organized religion.

John Dehlin [01:38:37] Yeah, that's fair. I don't either right now.

Brinley Jensen [01:38:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] Maybe someday.

Brinley Jensen [01:38:43] Yeah, maybe someday.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:44] Maybe not.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] Maybe not. All right, I guess I have one final question, but, Margi, do you have any final questions?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:53] I have a couple. Okay.

Brinley Jensen [01:38:54] I have a couple.

John Dehlin [01:38:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:56] Okay. I was curious, you know, fun. This idea of fun, joy was part of your teen years and seems like it's kind of like I sense it in you.

John Dehlin [01:39:09] Where.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:10] Where do you find joy these days and a sense of fun where you can kind of lose some of the weight of being alive.

Brinley Jensen [01:39:19] I love just, like, going out with my friends. I never thought I'd go out dancing at a bar. That was like, the absolute last thing I ever saw myself doing. But now it's like I can just go have fun and be free. Yeah. Just doing fun things with my friends, being out in nature, trying new things, Kind of finding my sense of self a little bit more, remembering to be careful, because I don't believe that I will never die how I used to living every day to the fullest yeah. Did that answer your question?

John Dehlin [01:40:02] Yes.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:03] Good.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:04] Yes. And before we go, I wanted to just. Because I felt earlier when we were talking and I was asking you about your beautiful tattoo.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:14] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] For those in the listening audience, it's kind of a seeing eye, and it's on your neck.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:21] Is that right?

Brinley Jensen [01:40:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:23] So I thought, if you don't mind.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:26] Because I think, you know, that theme is here in your story, so would you mind sharing a little bit about the tattoo and you getting it and what it means to you?

Brinley Jensen [01:40:37] Thank you. Thank you so much. I love sharing about my tattoos.

John Dehlin [01:40:42] You can share about as many as you want.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:43] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:44] Oh, thank you. I want you to feel like you'll

John Dehlin [01:40:46] go through a tour, clothing, or.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:48] No, no, it's fine to do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:50] So.

Brinley Jensen [01:40:50] So I. This was. This is my favorite tattoo and my most recent, and I've wanted it forever because not only is. Seemed kind of like a scary move, it's very visible. Most people, when they see me, it's one of the first things they notice and ask about. And I wanted to do that because this tattoo represents so much of, like, who I am, because it is recently that I've really allowed myself to just put trust in myself and trust my intuition and not even with, like, my faith and figuring out my spirituality, but literally everything in my life. Because before, like, with dating or with choosing friends or choosing random activities to do, like, everything, it's like, I should pray about this. I should make sure it aligns with the church, and now I can really trust myself and notice how I feel when I'm around certain people or doing certain things. And I love it because it's. The tattoo is a mix of, like, the third eye chakra and just, like, a seeing eye intuition. It represents trusting in yourself, and it was almost like proving to myself, like, I can take this step to show myself and others that I trust myself above everything else, and that that's a good thing finally in my life, like, finally I can trust in myself and, like, lead with that every. Every step of every day. So thank you for asking.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:49] I love that.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] All right, well, this has been so wonderful. I guess I have one final question for you.

Brinley Jensen [01:42:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:42:59] So last episode, we talked about you living the Mormon orthodox life, leading to you wanting to die and on a mission.

Brinley Jensen [01:43:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] When you're living the gospel and, you know, juxtaposing that with the Mormon teaching that wickedness never was happiness.

Brinley Jensen [01:43:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Now you've left the church, and you've already said that you're happier and Healthier than you were on your mission.

Brinley Jensen [01:43:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] So I guess I want, I want to ask you to bear your testimony about where you are now in terms of health and happiness.

Brinley Jensen [01:43:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:40] And if there's people, like our goal isn't to make people leave the church or push people to leave the church. It's not about that.

Brinley Jensen [01:43:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:49] But like for somebody who's not happy wherever they are in life, in or out of the church, but specifically in orthodox Mormonism in a way that isn't healthy for them, like it wasn't for you, in addition to bearing your testimony about your health and happiness now.

Brinley Jensen [01:44:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:06] Any parting words of wisdom for somebody who's in crisis?

Brinley Jensen [01:44:10] Yes. And I think this is actually a perfect time to tie in. I forgot there was one other thing you wanted we were talking about earlier. And this goes along. Yes, this goes along perfectly because I went to my mission president and his wife's homecoming over the summer and that's like the end of their three year mission. So many missionaries I served with were there and I sat in the very back, I wore an open back dress and I just wanted to show up completely myself.

John Dehlin [01:44:41] Open back to a non Mormon just means not as modest as it could be.

Brinley Jensen [01:44:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] Especially for a Sunday.

Brinley Jensen [01:44:47] Yes. Because. And that's anything that a returned missionary wears that it's obvious they're not wearing their garments.

John Dehlin [01:44:55] Oh, garments cover your back. And so if you're, if your dress is not covering your back, then clear

Brinley Jensen [01:45:00] you're not wearing garments. And it's a little taboo. But I wanted to just show up as myself and I went with another friend who no longer believes in the church. And I sat in the back and my mission president was up there talking and he looked to the back and looked at me and he said to any of my missionaries that have left the covenant path, just know like it's the biggest mistake you'll ever make. And he went on to say things about how Jesus loves you and all that good stuff, but I guess just my response was like, the biggest mistake I made was not trusting myself and going home earlier and saving myself from all that pain sooner. And the best choice I made was coming home, working through the hardest time I've ever experienced in my life. And I. I would never have thought I'd be where I am right now a year ago today, and finding out for myself what makes me the most happy, what I choose to reject and not believe in, and just doing what's best for myself. I would never call that the biggest mistake. I think I picked Myself up out of the dirt and with the help of people that love me and have my best interests at heart, finally got to a place where I hope I don't die anytime soon. And I never thought I'd say that. And so I think to any believing members that just don't understand why anyone would ever want to leave the church, I would just say, like, everyone's trying to navigate life without going crazy and just trying to make others happy, make themselves happy. Like we're all just figuring it out. And the universe is so much bigger than the Mormon Organization and so much bigger than all of our beliefs combined. And so we might as well just be open hearted and respectful to everyone around us and respect when people can find their happiness. Just like I respect my entire family, extended family, for finding their happiness in the Mormon Church. But I would just hope that they listen to the stories of people that have left and have compassion. But yeah, I guess to the whole wickedness never was happiness thing, then why am I so happy?

John Dehlin [01:47:57] Because the adversary can fake happiness.

Brinley Jensen [01:48:01] Yeah. It's not true. Peace and happiness. I'm faking all of it. But yeah, that's my long winded answer. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Yeah. Yeah. And I was just joking. The Mormon Church has a teaching that Satan can create counterfeit happiness. So if the next Mormon's ever happy,

Brinley Jensen [01:48:21] it's not real happiness. Look at the darkness in my eyes.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:24] There are literally answers for everything.

Brinley Jensen [01:48:27] Yeah, there are answers.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:48:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:32] Well, beautiful. Well, Brinley Jensen, thank you so much for your courage and for your wisdom and your strength. I'm so glad you're feeling healthy and you're healthy now.

Brinley Jensen [01:48:44] I am too.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] And Margi and I are just excited to see where you go from here and we want to see you become a leader and travel internationally in your power.

Brinley Jensen [01:48:52] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:52] Yeah.

Brinley Jensen [01:48:53] And we don't doubt it. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:55] We do not doubt it. We celebrate you.

Brinley Jensen [01:48:57] Oh, thank you. I celebrate you back.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] All right, so stay in touch. Keep up the good work. And most importantly, thank you for your willingness to come on Mormon Stories and share your story.

Brinley Jensen [01:49:09] Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Very humbling.

John Dehlin [01:49:12] And Margi, thanks for joining. I. I will always choose you as a co host when you're available and willing. Unless you don't want to or can't for some reason.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:22] Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure being here today. My pleasure.

John Dehlin [01:49:25] You make everything better.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:26] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] Yeah. All right. And thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to everyone who commented. Thanks to the donors that make Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation possible. We couldn't do it without you. We also lose donors every month because people fall on financial hard times or lose their job or just move on. And so we're losing eight to 20 donors a month and we need to replace them to be able to keep going. So if you aren't a financial supporter of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation, we would love if you could become a monthly donor, especially if you value this type of content either for yourself or to pay it forward for other people. So to do that, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button at the top of the page and become a monthly donor for whatever amount you're comfortable with. 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, a hundred bucks a month, whatever you can afford. All our donations are tax deductible in the US we're transparent in our finances and all the money that we receive, we do our best to dedicate towards the mission of the Open Stories foundation, which is to promote healing and growth, to support people who to support educating people, providing informed consent about the Mormon Church both to members and to people who've never been members, so that everyone can see the church clearly and make informed decisions about the church. And we also in the Open Stories foundation support faith transitions for Mormons struggling and doubting. And also we support healing and growth for after people decide the church no longer works for them and he in community. So if you support any of that or if you want to support it, please become a supporter. There are other ways to support as well. You know, we're, we're getting, we're, we're quickly reaching a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube, but we need our YouTube subscribers to subscribe. So please subscribe. If you're a YouTuber. You could also follow and subscribe us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. So become followers and subscribers. Comment that always helps with the algorithm. Share this with everyone you can this and other episodes and and of course you can always email us@mormonstoriesmail.com give us your feedback, give us ideas for great guests. You know, we'll take all the help we can get. So be, be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks for your support and we hope to provide you with, with great content in the weeks, months and years ahead. So take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Bye.

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