Introducing the Panel and Episode Topic

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today is August 7, 2024, and today we are going to be addressing the topic of Mormons Respond to Ballerina Farm. And we have four amazing panelists to be talking about it today. But before we jump in, I want to give everyone a chance to reintroduce themselves to our audience because, you know, some of you may be joining us new. So we have three people in studio, two people joining us, remote, and let's begin with Alyssa. Alyssa Alexander. Welcome back, Alyssa.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:38] Hello.

Alyssa Alexander [00:00:39] Thank you. My name is Alyssa. I talk about Mormonism. I am a woman, so these things are relevant to why I am here. I published a few essays talking about the way that women and Mormonism interact. And so I find this story particularly interesting.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Well, it's so good to have you back, Alyssa.

Julia [00:00:58] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Thanks. We also have back joining us in studio someone who I fondly call Sammy. It's Samantha Shelley. Hey, Sam.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:06] Hello, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Is it Sam or Sammy? Which is it?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:08] It's whatever you're feeling.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] All right, tell us who you are, Samantha, and what you do and why you're so awesome.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:16] Yeah. So I am one half of self on the shelf on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and I also took a ballet 101 class at BYU Idaho. So I'm feeling pretty ready to talk about this topic. And like, I'm going to have a lot to contribute.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:32] Just due to the ballet lens.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] Perfect. All right, well, it's really good to have you. And also people should know that you've covered this on Zelf on the Shelf already. So if you want a really good take on this episode, click off this

Samantha Shelley [00:01:45] live stream right now.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Go watch it. Excellent. All right, it's good to have you both in studio and joining us remotely. We're, we have Celeste Davis. Hey, Celeste. Hello.

Celeste Davis [00:01:58] I am Celeste Davis, also a woman who used to be a Mormon and definitely someone interested in feminism and tradwives and all of these topics. I write a weekly substack called Matriarchal Blessing and I often am talking about patriarchy and Mormon patriarchy in specific and feminist topics. So very happy to be able to talk about it today.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] Excellent. Well, great to have you back, Celeste. Thanks for joining us. And then rounding out our panel is the amazing Julia. Julia, tell us about yourself.

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:33] Hi.

Julia [00:02:33] I am also used to be Mormon woman. I grew up in the church. I serve on Mission in Salt Lake. I graduated from byu, Idaho, and I don't follow these influencers, but I love Mormon history, and I'm going to get my master's degree in history, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] All right. And Julia also has put some slides together to kind of help guide our way. Okay. So I think it's really important to start out with intentions because we are going to be talking about a human and a woman. And, you know, I think we. I don't think we want to fill the world with hate or criticism or negativity. I think we want to validate and respect choices that people make. And I think it's very easy in this case, especially when maybe some of us are a little more out of the church and others are in for it, to sort of be guns a blazing towards people. So I want to give. Let's. Let's have a. Take a second to kind of set tone or intention, and maybe I'll just go around the horn and ask how each of you are thinking about approaching intention with this episode. And I'll start with you, Alyssa.

Hannah and Daniel Neeleman as Public Characters

Alyssa Alexander [00:03:41] Yeah, I think when I'm thinking about this topic, in particular, the social media lens and the article, I think of Hannah and Daniel more as characters. We don't really know them as individual people the way that they've been portrayed. I think we're just more analyzing the portrayal of them, not them as actual individual people. For this particular discussion. They're more of a launching off point to larger topics, and I think kind of separating them from the characters that they're portraying is important to remember when we're talking about all of this.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] Love it. All right, thanks, Alyssa. Celeste, let's give you a chance to share any intentions you want to add to that.

Celeste Davis [00:04:19] Yeah, I love that we're starting our conversation off this way because I do think it's really important to set the tone. My kind of mantra as I talk online and as I write online is to go really hard on systems and to go really easy on people. So it can kind of seem like maybe. I hope it doesn't ever seem like we are critiquing, attacking Hannah Nealman or Daniel Nealman, but it is definitely that they are. They have been blown up onto the global scale. And this represents a really golden opportunity to go hard on systems, specifically on Mormon patriarchy, because it. It is providing such a snapshot that is just like picture perfect of the Mormon patriarchy. So I do want to go hard on that system, but hopefully without going hard on these individual people or critiquing their lives or any of that, I do. That is really important. And I think it's important to believe Women, when they say what their lives are and they should be the main narrator of their lives, love it.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Samantha, anything you want to add?

Samantha Shelley [00:05:20] I love when we verbalize what our tone's going to be in advance. And I also suspect that you're making us do this because you think I'm going to be making aggressive ad hominem attacks, which is very unfair because I always use nonviolent communication online. John.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] I don't assume that way, and I

Samantha Shelley [00:05:35] plan to continue showing up the way I have it. No, but I just feel I'm like, who on this panel do you think is going to be, like, being aggressive and attacking the individual? Who here is not a systems thinker? Name yourself.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] All right.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:47] Is it you, John?

John Dehlin [00:05:48] I must be projecting.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:49] You're projecting.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] I'm projecting all over all of you.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:52] My apologies.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:52] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] All right.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:54] For apologizing to women.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] Julie, anything you want to add?

Julia [00:05:58] No, I just. I know that there were commenters before the. Before we went live. They were concerned about our tone. And so I'm sure that's what John is just talking about. But. Yeah, so I love that Celeste talked about, we're going after these systems, not these people. I have nothing against these people. I don't even really know them. And so, like. So just talking about the. The Mormon angle of this. Like, how Mormon is this story? Like, what. What. What does this stem from? Like, the patriarchy that you were talking about?

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Okay, excellent. All right, now that Samantha has called me out, we can. I'm just being silly. Okay, so next really quick thing. And I. I wasn't sure whether this is even okay to mention, but since we're talking about a Mormon mom who has a lot of kids. Do. Do any of you even want to talk about your relationship to motherhood, to children, to marriage, or anything of that in terms of biographical info? Anyone want to. Anyone who wants to share kind of what their framework is? We'll start with Alyssa.

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:56] I am pro mom. I have one. And I am one.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] Wait, wait, wait. So who's talking? We weren't seeing you on the screen, Julia.

Julia [00:07:05] Is this Alyssa talking?

Alyssa Alexander [00:07:07] It was me.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Oh, Alyssa. Yeah. Oh, my bad. One more time.

Alyssa Alexander [00:07:10] I like moms. Moms are good. I have a little boy, and I'm also a straight woman in a heterosexual marriage. And so I think any sort of commentary on this, you know, I think I am coming as someone who is living a life as a mom with a husband.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] All right. Samantha, do you want to share anything?

Samantha Shelley [00:07:32] Sure. You know, I'm not currently looking to be having children in my life, though I do have three beautiful cat sons. But I was raised by a single working mother. So I suppose my experience is the stark opposite of what Hannah's kids are experiencing and what their family life is like.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Excellent. Okay, Celeste, anything you want to say?

Celeste Davis [00:07:56] Yeah. I am married and I have four children.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Okay. And Alyssa. Julia. Sorry, Julia.

Julia [00:08:04] So I am in a queer relationship. I have one daughter, but I come from a very large family, and my parents had eight kids, and then there was a mixed family, so there was 14 kids total with five and then a half sibling, five step, and then a half. And so, like, all my. My parents, my grandparents, they had seven kids, and they each had, like, seven to eight kids. So, like, huge families. So I see this reflected in Hannah's story in this ballerina farm where she has a lot of kids. And so I just.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] And I think it's worth mentioning, Julia, that you tried the traditional Mormon route, right?

Julia [00:08:36] I sure did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I wanted a lot of kids, and it didn't work out because, you know, I found out I was queer or came out as queer. And so I still want kids with my partner. It's just going to. It's just harder to do it that way. It's just more expensive, I should say.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] But you have one child right now.

Julia [00:08:51] Yes, one child.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] Okay. All right. So now I am going to guess that most of my audience has no idea what we're about to talk about, that they've never heard of Ballerina Farms. I pulled a few friends, and a lot of people just never heard of this story at all. So I think it's important for us to begin by just giving a background for those who have no idea who we're talking about, what we're talking about, or what we're doing. So for that, Julia, you're going to man the slides, but I'm going to invite anyone who wants to kind of help provide background to the story, who wants to begin to kind of frame and set this up.

Celeste Davis [00:09:28] I can.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] Okay, Celeste.

Celeste Davis [00:09:30] So Hannah Nealman, I would guess a lot of Mormon women have been knowing who she is for years now because she has had millions of followers online as an influencer for years and years and years. And so her and her husband, they have eight kids. They run Ballerina Farm, where they sell. They have a pig farm. They sell sausages and different pig products, meat products out of their farm. But mostly, she is an online influencer, and she shows snippets of her life on the farm. She went to Juilliard as a ballerina. Very lds. They do not hide that at all. And she got put on kind of a global scale this past spring when she competed in the Mrs. World competition. She was Mrs. America. Not Ms. America. The married version of that. Mrs. America. She'd been doing beauty pageants her whole life. Formerly, she was Miss New York City. And so she competed in the Mrs. World competition 12 days postpartum after her eighth baby, which, that alone, you can see why that would make big news. That is an interesting story. And so she kind of blew up there, but then, as we're going to talk about, she's blown up way bigger than that in this past two weeks.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Anything others want to add to the. There's. It's probably. I don't want to ever define a woman by her husband, but her husband's bio background is worth mentioning. Probably.

Samantha Shelley [00:10:52] I think we go to that next. But I think it's worth mentioning that to be pageant ready 12 days after giving birth, she did ice baths during pregnancy, which kind of shows her mental fortitude up front.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] And what does that say about her mental fortitude?

Samantha Shelley [00:11:06] I think she's very disciplined. Ballet dancer, ice baths during pregnancy, pageant queen 12 days after.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Kind of hardcore.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:13] Yeah, she's hardcore.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Okay, okay. Okay. Anything else before we jump to the slides? Is that where we're going next, Julia?

Julia [00:11:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] Okay, so here's the slide that. I guess that's a photo of the family. Is that got all eight kids in it? I guess it does. Or is that seven?

Julia [00:11:30] Is there seven? And she is pregnant, I think, in this one. This is right before the pageant, I think.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Okay, so there's a picture. It's probably worth mentioning. They live in Camas, Utah. Right. Which is right outside of Park City. Kind of east of Salt Lake City. About 45 minutes east. Right. Okay. All right. So, Julia, did you want to narrate these slides?

Hannah Neeleman's Background and Rise to Fame

Julia [00:11:52] Sam did these first slides. I feel like she knows more about this topic than I do.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:56] I mean, this was just a visual for the intro we've just given to Hannah.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:01] Wow, guys, graphic design.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] Those who are listening, what do we see?

Alyssa Alexander [00:12:04] Stunning.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Is that. Is that Canva?

Samantha Shelley [00:12:06] What are we looking at? We're looking at. How dare you? But, yeah, we're looking at a Canva Pro image featuring lots of different shots of this beautiful blonde lady in her 30s. Quote that I put from her on the screen says, I was a good ballerina.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:25] And it seems she was.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] I mean, Juilliard. That's pretty.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:28] Yeah, Juilliard.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] Okay. All right. So that gives us a visual of her aesthetic.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:33] She also went to. Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Oh, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:35] Stunning. No, I just gasped at the great graphic design on the next slide. She also did the BYU dance program at 17. I think she had, like, a scholarship to the BYU dance program. So also just showing how impressive she is.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:47] And, like, how promising of a dancer she was.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Yeah. BYU doesn't mess around with its, like, ballroom dancing is internationally known.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:54] Right. I don't know if it was ballroom.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] I think it was just an example.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:57] Got it, got it.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] BYU is pretty serious about its dance. Yeah. Okay, next slide. Looks like it's about Daniel Neeleman. What are we. I don't think we picked the most flattering photo, by the way.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:10] Yeah, that was a screenshot.

Alyssa Alexander [00:13:12] He loves Tick tock airplanes.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:14] His dad loves airplanes. And he loves farming.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] I mean, okay, so it's.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:18] But they're both called David. I mean, Daniel.

Alyssa Alexander [00:13:21] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] So the dad is the billionaire founder of JetBlue airlines.

Alyssa Alexander [00:13:26] Daniel's dad?

Samantha Shelley [00:13:27] Yeah, Daniel's daddy. He was the founder, I think he owned five commercial airlines. Just, you know, billionaire king and then.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] And devout, devout Mormon up as far as we know. I know my family members of mine lived in Connecticut in the same ward. And this, by all appearances, was a very devout, Orthodox, committed Mormon family. Correct?

Samantha Shelley [00:13:51] Yeah, definitely. And, and Daniel Jr. Has talked about how he's always wanted to sort of have a traditional family life.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] So, so, okay, so this is, Is this the husband, the guy in the middle with the weird hat?

Samantha Shelley [00:14:04] Guy in the blue shirt? Yep, that's Daniel Jr. Guy on the right in the sky. Daddy hoodie. That's Senior.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] Okay. And as I understand it, Senior's no longer married.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:16] No longer married? I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] I, I, I think I read he's divorced.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:20] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] Is that right, Celeste?

Celeste Davis [00:14:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] Okay. He's divorced. I don't know. I don't know anything. Yeah, I don't know anything about that. Okay. All right, so that's Daniel. That's the husband. And then who wants to tell their classic Mormon love story?

Samantha Shelley [00:14:33] I could tell their love story.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] Okay, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:36] So they meet, as I understand it, when she's 19. I think he must have been a returned missionary at the time. And in classic Mormon fashion, he asks her out and she's not interested. She makes that known. And as I understand it, for the next six months, she makes it known that she's not interested in dating him. But his dad is the, I mean, he's the heir to the JetBlue fortune, Daniel.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] And by the Way we have a. We have a correction. Boston Sarah is saying David Neeleman is the name of the dad, not Daniel. Does that sound.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:11] Is that why I keep getting Daniel and David?

John Dehlin [00:15:13] So let's not. Yeah, so David's the dad, Daniel is the son.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:17] I'm so sorry about that.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] It's okay. It's good. That's why we have amazing livestream commenters to help correct this. So. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:25] Yeah. Thank you guys.

John Dehlin [00:15:26] So keep going. So Daniel is the son.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:28] I'm really frustrated that I did that. They just have such similar vibes, the two names. Anyway, so she's not interested in him, but he's the son of the JetBlue fortune. So he arranges. When she's, I think, flying home for Christmas break or she's going on some kind of flight for a trip, he arranges to be sat next to her on the plane. And the way the Times article describes it is like, thus began their first date, which I personally take umbrage with because I think it was a bit of a non consensual first date, but whatever, maybe she had a good time. It appears that they hit it off because they then start dating and she's saying she wants to wait a year to get married so she can finish school. And you know, a year is a. Well, some would say like unreasonably short length of time to wait. But anyway, she wants to wait a year, which is a pretty reasonable standard, I feel like within Mormonism. But. But he says, no, that's not going to work. We need to get married right away. So within a month of them beginning to date, they're engaged, and within three months they're married. And then within six months, she's pregnant with his child. So things escalated quickly.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] Okay, and y', all, any other one? Anyone else on the panel? Feel free to jump in if you've got any other color to add. All right, here's the next. Yeah, please. Celeste.

Celeste Davis [00:16:43] Yeah, on her website, she said I had left school for summer break, single and dance focused. And when I came back to school in the fall, I was married and thinking about a different future. So all of their dating, courtship, married, all happened within one summer.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] And I think I read that she's in modern history. The only pregnant undergraduate at Juilliard in the history of Juilliard.

Julia [00:17:06] Yeah, that's what the article says too. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Okay. Okay, so they, they do it, they get married, they start having babies. Did she drop out of Juilliard?

Samantha Shelley [00:17:17] No, I think she graduated while pregnant. And then I think she worked A little bit as a ballerina, but then obviously was a mother soon after. So that then quit ballet quite soon.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] Okay. All right. Okay, let's go to the next slide. So that looks like this is TikTok. TikTok. Okay. 9.5 million followers.

Julia [00:17:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Ballerina Farm is the TikTok channel. And then the next one's the Instagram. 9.8. That's pretty close. It's rare to have similar numbers across platforms.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:51] It's like they've reached complete market saturation for their content, which is impressive on both platforms.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Okay, so this is the Instagram shot. 924 posts.

Alyssa Alexander [00:18:03] She is at 9.9 followers now.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:06] So.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] So almost 9.9 million. Yeah. Okay. All right. And then this is the. This is the YouTube channel.

Julia [00:18:15] Yeah, 1.64 million. So not quite as many, but it's still a really good amount.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] I think. It's harder to get YouTube followers than Instagram and Tick tock. Is that right?

Julia [00:18:26] In my experience, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Okay, that's YouTube. And so what's this a shot of?

Julia [00:18:34] So I just wanted to show this because a lot of people are going to be confused why we're talking about this. But so that article was released and ever since then, there's been a lot of people posting about this. So these are. So these next three slides are just like various people. Some of these. Some of these individuals have even been on Mormon stories covering this topic. So I just want to show that we're not the only ones doing this. This is being covered. And Celeste, you mentioned that even other news articles are covering this.

Celeste Davis [00:18:57] It's been. Yeah, global. Like People magazine has covered it. Forbes, Us Weekly, the New York Post.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] It's been New York Times, New York Times, London, London Times. Right.

Celeste Davis [00:19:09] That was the original one.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Yeah. Yeah. And just really quickly, that's girls camp. That's cults to consciousness. And then. Yeah, we've got a second. And somehow Zelf on the shelf didn't make this list. Julia.

Julia [00:19:23] No, it's there.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:24] I'm being silent there.

John Dehlin [00:19:25] Oh, it's on the third. It's on the third one.

Alyssa Alexander [00:19:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] So we've got self on the shelf there. Jordan and McKay. We love Jordan McKay.

Julia [00:19:30] Can you show it? Not that it's super important.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] Sorry. There it is.

Alyssa Alexander [00:19:34] Yeah, that graphic design.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:36] That was Tana.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] He slayed Mormon Trad. Final Boss.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:41] Do you know about. Does that. Does that make sense to you?

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Trad does Final Boss.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:47] Sorry, we don't have time.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Why is alyssa.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:49] We've got 60 slides to get through.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Okay. It's fine. I'm pretty much a boomer. I'm pretty much a boomer at this point. That's fine. Okay. So. Okay. Yeah. So what's this next slide, Julia?

The New York Times Tradwife Article Explained

Julia [00:20:01] Yeah, so I was just showing. This is just the Times. I don't want to call it a cover. The article was released on July 20. The article is titled Meet the Queen of the Trad wives and her eight children.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] And it's published July 20, 2024.

Julia [00:20:17] Right. And so how I have the structure for today is that we're going to go through not the entire article, but the parts that stuck out to me at least. And then we're going to talk about how that's how Mormon those things are or the past teachings from Mormon leaders.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Yeah, yeah. Because one of the things we like to do on Mormon stories is explain to the world how Mormon these stories are or not Mormon, and provide Mormon context for those who are curious. Right. Is this story Mormon or not?

Samantha Shelley [00:20:46] I mean, of course. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Well, I mean, there could be a Mormon influencer whose story isn't particularly Mormon. Like. Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] So the question is, does Mormon doctrine, history, policy, culture really factor into the story? Right.

Alyssa Alexander [00:21:04] And I think it's interesting because some of the articles that have been from larger magazines that aren't Mormon adjacent are trying to, like, suss out how Mormon this story is and trying to, like, understand the Mormon angle of it. So it'll be fun to be able to dive into that with a little bit more ethos as a bunch of Mormons.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:22] A bit of a British angle because the journalist of the hit piece was British.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] So when it's the Times, we don't mean the New York Times. The original article.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:31] Again, the Times in England.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] Yeah. London Times. We're gonna say something, Celeste.

Celeste Davis [00:21:35] No.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Okay, Okay.

Julia [00:21:37] I do wanna say really fast. It's Megan Agnew. Right. The author of this, the original article.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] Megan, we hope you're watching. So if you are, hello. Thanks for writing your article and give it us a chance to do this. Okay. So how do we want to do this, Julia?

Julia [00:21:53] I don't know if there's somebody that wouldn't mind reading a lot of this, a lot of these articles.

Alyssa Alexander [00:21:58] I'll read this. This one.

Julia [00:22:00] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [00:22:01] Living out here, it must be hard to envision all the millions of eyes watching them. I feel like we're doing what God wants. Neilman says we're on his errand a little bit, Daniel adds, ron is errand a little bit, she repeats.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] So do we want to comment after each of these slides? Julie, is that what you're thinking?

Julia [00:22:15] However you want to structure it? I don't know if that will take too long or if you guys have things you want to say, however you want to do it.

Celeste Davis [00:22:20] Maybe just to jump in with a little more context that this is like a rare interview because there's a lot of news articles that's been about them, but this journalist went to their farm for four hours, and these are the quotes, and these are the stories. And this is the thing that has blown her up to a global scale is this article because this woman went to their home, and the Neilmans didn't know what the article was going to be about.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:40] And I feel like it also shows that they do see the content that they're putting out as a form of missionary work, based on that quote, I would assume, which would be normal in, you know, in sort of Mormon culture and teachings. So it shows that it's not. They don't see their content as sort of separate from their personal religious life in that sense. They see it as sort of an extension of their, like, devotion to Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] I mean, they said it. We're on a mission from God. I mean, that's basically what they said, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:23:10] Yeah. I'm also on a mission from God with my TikToks, so I get it.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] What the.

Alyssa Alexander [00:23:16] Which I also feel like a lot of people will be critical that we're even talking about all of this, saying, like, just let Hannah live her life. And while I agree that we don't want to, you know, be particularly harsh on individual people, what she's trying to do, she's trying to influence people to follow her lifestyle, to follow her religion in both implicit and explicit ways. And so we're just trying dissect the. What she's actually trying to influence. And as she said herself, hoping to be inspirational and aspirational for other people who are watching.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Makes sense.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:50] Yeah. And I think the idea that a cultural figure with 10 million followers should, you know, be kept out of discourse is a bit absurd. I mean, if you're. If you're garnering that many views and followers, then you're obviously going to become a symbol for a lot of things, and you're gonna become part of discourse whether you want to or not. I mean, that's the name of the game with content creation.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] It reminds me of the Charlie Bird conversation because a lot of people are like, don't talk about Charlie Bird. It's like, wait a minute, he's a gay Mormon saying he attends church, saying he's faithful, but he's married. Lots of gay Mormons are getting excommunicated. How can we not talk about Charlie Bird? And he wants us to because he has a large Instagram presence. It's kind of like that. Right? Is that fair?

Samantha Shelley [00:24:32] Yeah. And we know that sort of like famous or high up people in high demand religions often kind of get to live by slightly different rules. For example, privilege. Yeah. So it is important to be sort of looking at the people who rise to the top in terms of influence.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Julia [00:24:51] Can I make some comments?

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Yeah, Please, Julia.

Julia [00:24:53] So one thing that I liked about this specific couple of sentences is the repeat where he says, we're on his errand a little bit, and then she says, we're on his errand a little bit. And then the. The writer, the. This journalist points out that she's repeating him. And so I guess to me, in my head, it's just like, she's being a good wife. She's being a good. Or. Or what I think of as a Mormon wife, where she's like taking. She's letting the husband take the lead and she's following him. And so I just. That just caught my attention and that

John Dehlin [00:25:17] that theme may come up again and again throughout, Right? Maybe. All right, let's go to the next slide, which is the proclamation family, the proclamation to the world. This is a proclamation that the Mormon Church put out. Does anyone want to talk about this proclamation just to get background on it, or is that me?

Mormon Theology on Gender Roles and Family

Julia [00:25:37] I can do it.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Okay, Julia.

Julia [00:25:39] So in 1995, the church. The church was trying to stop. Put a stop to gay marriage in Hawaii. And so they entered the Bear vs. Lewin case, I think is the one, if I'm not mistaken. And they wrote an amicus brief about saying, like, hey, you know, we don't want to change our religious perspective on marriage. And. And so they submitted the family proclamation as part of that, as a friend of the court, and saying that this is our religious standing. We need this to stop. We need you guys to not accept gay marriage. And so they wrote this proclamation, and just before submitting it to the court, they had to have the members and they have to have this in their hands. And so Gordon stood up in converts and he said this. And the members went crazy about it. They put it on their walls. We grew up with several of them in our house. And so it just shows the traditional roles of males, males and females. And then, like, how they have to have children and they need to take care of each other. And it Just talks about the roles, but it's. Its main focus was to combat gay marriage, but it.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] But it's. And by the way, pretty much every faithful Mormon home has at least one copy of this frame on the walls. Is it. You're nodding, Alyssa.

Alyssa Alexander [00:26:43] Oh, yeah. It's a huge thing on Etsy. You know, so many people like to make the family proclamation very aesthetic and cute and then blow it up and it's pretty and, like, people will have it in the shape of a temple with all the text. It's just a very, very integrated text for your average Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] Do you think the average Mormon would consider this doctrine?

Samantha Shelley [00:27:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Yeah, they would. I don't know that it's been formally canonized in, like, printed out Mormon scripture, but I know it's in the LDS Tools app.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:13] I feel like at byu, Idaho, they made us memorize it and they said it was doctrine because of the fact that it was all signed by the First Presidency, which obviously is gonna bode well for them. But didn't Oaks say that specifically?

John Dehlin [00:27:28] I think Oaks believes it is, but I think there's other apostles that.

Julia [00:27:31] Well, Oakes. Oakes also says he doesn't. There's very little difference. In fact, I think he says there is no difference between doctrine and policy. So I don't.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, so let's go ahead and read from it because I think aside from the legal same sex marriage aspects to this proclamation, it's trying to establish the order of the. Of a Mormon family and specifically enshrine what the gender roles are.

Celeste Davis [00:27:58] Right.

Julia [00:27:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] And who. Julie? Who? Do you want to read this?

Julia [00:28:02] Oh, Celeste, do you want to read this?

Celeste Davis [00:28:04] Sure, if I must. Fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] All right, so men preside, provide and protect. Women do what they nurture. Nurture the children. Any quick. Any quick comments on the proclamation on the family? Anyone? Is that low hanging fruit? Is this like a pinata you guys are about to swat?

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:42] Yeah, it's lame, huh?

John Dehlin [00:28:44] You're not a fan.

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:45] Not a fan.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Don't you nurture your kids?

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:47] I love nurturing my kids.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] Your kid, but hopefully your husband also nurtures.

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:53] Yeah, exactly. He also nurtures.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] And I'm sure all of you are grateful that your husbands provide for you, correct?

Alyssa Alexander [00:29:00] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] I'm being psychedelic to them.

Alyssa Alexander [00:29:03] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Celeste, do you want to add anything?

Celeste Davis [00:29:06] Just that I'm thinking of. There's a quote in. So Megan Agnew did a second article responding to the blow up of her first article where she provided a few more quotes from Daniel and Hannah. And Daniel has this gosh, awful quote in there that says something like, men are here to work and women are here to beautify. And it's so condescending. And it's so like, like work. Like all the world's work. That's such a massive thing. That's so important. Right. And women just make things pretty is so condescending and awful. And I feel similarly about, like, men need to provide and protect and be these, like, mammoth figures. And the women are just in their little corners beautifying and nurturing.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] Yeah. I remember when the proclamation came out, I was working for Microsoft and I was chorister over primary music, and they came out with the. They rolled out a song in conjunction with the proclamation. Do you guys remember it?

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] A father's role is to preside, protect, provide. I mean, it's like. And they made a song, a primary song out of the proclamation so that all the kids would sing it and learn it and memorize their respective gender roles. So it's pretty intense. And I'm just saying in 2024, I'm just blown away that in the Mormon marriage, it's codified that the husband presides over the wife and the kids. It's. I just. I can't believe it. Honestly.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:37] I think it really still is.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] What?

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:40] Still codified? Like, I think that. I'm just thinking of people's reactions to you saying that, and they're like, what?

Julia [00:30:46] No, that's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] But it's right there in the text.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:49] It is, and it's still part of it. And I think, like, the temple talks about. Even though it took out some of the hearkening language, like the head of the household is still so much factor. Like, it is just baked into the doctrine and is still, you know, held up. And like, that quote that Celeste mentioned a little bit ago about women beautifying and men making stuff work, that's just a more modern, you know, language for what the proclamation is saying. So I don't even think. He probably didn't even think that the interview was going poorly because it's just common. They were so shocked that the. That the review was bad. But that's just. They're like, what? This is just how we talk.

Julia [00:31:27] This is so normal.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:28] This is a normal thing to Say to a European woman, she's not going to think anything of it.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] Yeah. So if Daniel's kind of leading those conversations, he's literally doing what his church has taught him doctrinally. Is that fair?

Samantha Shelley [00:31:45] Yeah, he's a good boy. Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:31:47] And that's why I think I'm actually really thankful for this article, because as someone who's constantly trying to point out the Mormon patriarchy to people who just plainly don't see it, kind of, especially in marriages, it can be very hard to see if that's just the air you've always breathed and you don't see those problem. You know, it says right in the proclamation, we're supposed to be equals, and it's all loving and it's God's will, and it's all. That's hard to see. But this article did such a good job that that journalist was in that home for four hours and captured in my eyes the Mormon marriage. Like, just to a chef's kiss, in the little, minuscule little ways where I'm sure we're reading in more quotes, where he's constantly interrupting her. She's constantly deferring to, like, she's repeating after him. She's looking up at him and smiling. She's kind of fawning over him. Like, she's like, Daniel's so good at this and Daniel's so good at that. And like, those little interactions were, to me, as a. When I read this for the first time, I was like, oh, thank you. It was like a relief. I was like, this makes the invisible visible. Like, this is a visible depiction of the thing that I'm always trying to point to of, like, how insidious patriarchy is in the typical Mormon marriage in ways that. That Mormons don't usually typically see because it's so normal. But the deferring, the interrupting, all of that is just so. It is to me, like, the natural consequence of these doctrines. Like, this is how it rolls out. This is how it happens. The deferring and the fawning and all of that.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] Yeah, it's very 1950s. You know, beaver. You know, Ward June Cleaver, kind of leave it to Beaver stuff. Again, I'm showing my age. Okay, Julia, you've got what I asked you to do, maybe, and what you're gracious to do is to put together some quotes from Mormon general authorities just to kind of give a sense for the history of how gender roles and family structures have been taught within Mormonism, aside from the proclamation.

Julia [00:33:37] Yeah, yeah. So this one is From Thomas S. Monson. So in the very first issue of the Ensign magazine, published in January of 1971, and this replaced the Relief Society magazine, which essentially silenced the publication of Women's Voices, which I'm really passionate about having that happen, how that happened. So President Thomas S. Monson released an article titled the Women's Liberation or Deception? And he's talking about the era. Specifically, Monson emphasized that every woman has been endowed by God with distinctive characteristics, gifts, and talents in order that she may fulfill a specific mission in the eternal plan. He went on to say that what the modernists, even the liberationists, fail to remember is that women, in addition to being persons, also belong to a sex, and that with the difference, the differences in sex are associated important differences in function and behavior. He ended by challenging the women to sustain their husbands, strengthen their homes, and serve their God, reminding women that their husband is the head, and they were the help meets.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Any reactions?

Samantha Shelley [00:34:37] What the modernists fail to remember is that women are not just people, they're also their gender.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Any other comments? I mean, it's worth saying that Thomas S. Monson was prophet president of the Mormon Church just as recently as, what, six, seven, eight years ago?

Alyssa Alexander [00:34:57] 2018. 2019. Ish.

John Dehlin [00:34:59] Yeah. So, I mean, he was the prophet previous to this one, and these are quotes from him. Right.

Julia [00:35:06] Well, and then this. This word help meet is also reflected in the Mormon Temple. Is it? Has that one been taken out? Do we know if that. That word has been taken out, Help meet.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] Has that been taken out of the temple? I'm not sure, Celeste.

Celeste Davis [00:35:16] You know, I don't know.

Alyssa Alexander [00:35:18] It was in it as recently as 2019. So whether it's there now or not, it's still current. Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Maybe some of our viewers can let us know.

Julia [00:35:27] Right, so like, when God creates Adam and then he creates Eve, and then he says she was created to be his help meet. That is, her whole purpose is to be Adam's help meet. And so that's. That language is just reflected in Monson's. This quote from Monson, and I'm dying

John Dehlin [00:35:39] to know if they spell meet M E A T or M E T. It's interchangeable.

Alyssa Alexander [00:35:44] You're both. You're meat and meat. Dual purpose.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] All right, really quickly, Victoria Perry sent us a super chat saying, thanks, guys, for doing this. Thanks to everyone who donates either through super chats or just regular recurring Mormon stories. Donors. You make all this possible. So thank you. Okay, Julia, what else? Should we go to the next slide?

Julia [00:36:03] Yeah, does someone want to read this? Alyssa Or.

Alyssa Alexander [00:36:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] Can you see it, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:36:07] Yeah, I can see it.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] Okay, go for it, Sammy.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:10] Daniel is so good about that, she says, looking to her husband. He says, you can't lean into what people are saying or the titles people are putting on you. You just have to live your life and shut that out, because if not, it will overtake you. It doesn't have an impact on her at all. I mean, it does. I'll hear things. It's no fun like. She pauses, looking up at Daniel, who is now standing behind her. What do you think upsets us the most? She asks him. For whatever reason. I'm kind of numb to it. He says,

John Dehlin [00:36:39] reactions.

Celeste Davis [00:36:41] This is the paragraph that, when I read it for the first time, I had to, like, put my phone down and take some deep breaths.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] Why? Spell it out for us, Celeste.

Celeste Davis [00:36:49] Oh, gosh. Like the fawning. Well, in the paragraph right above that, right before she says, daniel's so good about that, it talks about how Daniel's got all this criticism for, like, kicking one of their animals. The journalist, like, asks her specifically, how do you deal with pushback? And her response is like, oh, Daniel's so good about dealing with pushback. Just like the Mormon need to just constantly fawn over your husband, like, obsessively was so triggering and just annoying to read out loud, because that's exactly how it would go. I don't know. And just that she's not answering her own questions for herself. She's, like, looking up at him, like, what do you think? What's your opinion? Oof. I don't know. Just that one got me.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] That's familiar to you in your lived Mormon experience, Celeste, at least?

Celeste Davis [00:37:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Okay.

Celeste Davis [00:37:35] Yes, I will say. And especially the need to constantly compliment your husband, like, kind of be the booster of his ego consistently, I think is a very common Mormon thing for Mormon wives.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:48] I also feel like it's one of those things. It's. There's things throughout this article where if they were just isolated incidents, you know, sometimes in a couple, you do, like, look to your partner and you're like, what is it that, like, you think, you know, they're all things that could be explained away in isolation, but the picture that's built with all of it together is obviously telling a different story. Yeah, now I'm done.

Alyssa Alexander [00:38:13] Yeah. I think that what feels so familiar about this for so many Mormon relationship dynamics is, first, you know, her continually talking in we US terms, which I think, you know, is quick. It's natural. But even when she's being asked A direct question. She's just, you know, assuming they're together. She says later in, like, her rebuttal to this article, like, Daniel and I are one, which I think is, you know, it's just this inability to separate herself a little bit that I think feels really familiar for a lot of Mormon couples. And also I find interesting that, like, this moment that she pauses and is looking for a little bit of validation is when she's asked to be slightly negative because Mormon women are also taught to be extremely positive and grateful and gracious. And when she's asked directly something that she struggles with, that's when she pauses and turns to him. And again, like Sam was saying, this is a small moment. We're not trying to. Or I'm not in this exact second trying to extrapolate everything about the relationship, but it does just show a pattern that is very familiar to dynamics that I've seen growing up. Lds.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] Excellent. Thank you. All right, so, Julie, you've got a Heber C. Kimball quote next.

Historical Mormon Quotes on Wives and Submission

Julia [00:39:30] Yeah, so in 1856, Apostle Heber C. Kimball stated, I want. I want to know what. What good a wife is to me unless she will let me lead and guide and let me govern her by the word of God. When a wife is obedient to her husband, there is union, there is heaven.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:48] He would have loved Ballerina Farm because of the whole. I think no more of taking a wife than I do buying a cow.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] And Julia, I think. I think it's important for our never Mormons to understand what it means to be a Mormon apostle. Do you want to explain why that's so significant and whether the wisdom offered from an apostle ever times out from a Mormon perspective?

Julia [00:40:13] So we'll see some of this later. But, yeah, so I'm pretty sure that all. There's the one prophet, there's the two counselors, and then there's the 12 apostles. And I'm pretty sure all of them are prophets, seers, and revelators. Is that correct?

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Is that those three, they're all sustained by the membership as prophets, seers, revelators, and special witnesses of Christ.

Julia [00:40:31] Right?

John Dehlin [00:40:32] So these dudes talk to Jesus according to Mormon belief. And so there's never a point where even though this Heber C. Kimball quote comes from 1856, an orthodox Mormon reads something from 1856. And if he sees apostle, he says, somehow that's true. Somehow I gotta believe that and incorporate it. Am I wrong?

Samantha Shelley [00:40:51] Unless it was bad, and then he was just vibing out that day and it wasn't from God. And we don't really need to worry about that.

Alyssa Alexander [00:40:56] They won't say explicitly what it was that was said. Just don't think about it too much if there's something bad that was said.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] No, but a Mormon could never stand up and say, I disagree with Apostle Heber C. Kimball and what he said in church. What would happen if he.

Alyssa Alexander [00:41:07] Did they take you out the back?

Samantha Shelley [00:41:11] Oh, it depends what they're bringing up.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Yeah. All right, Julia, back to you.

Julia [00:41:17] Yeah. So this next one, if you want to go forward. Yeah. So this one's Brigham Young. So this is in the same year, 1856. The Prophet Brigham Young explained that there is a curse upon the woman that is not upon the man. Namely, that her whole affections shall be towards her husband. And what is the next? He shall rule over you. But how it. But how is it now your desires to your husband, but you strive to rule over him, whereas the man should rule over you. Okay, just this idea of a curse. Like, I guess, you know, we've talked a little bit about the curses in Mormonism and how there's the curse of skin in some cases, and then here he just puts it kind of differently. There is a curse upon the woman that the man should rule over her and that her affections should be towards her husband. Like, I don't, I don't know. What are your guys thoughts?

Samantha Shelley [00:42:04] I think he's saying, you know, like, women that aren't all about their husbands, you know, are cursed. Right. Isn't that what the quote's saying? Like, if you're not obsessed with your husband as he pursues, you know, dozens

John Dehlin [00:42:20] of other women, her whole affections shall be toward her husband.

Julia [00:42:23] And this is coming from a man who has had. Who has 50 plus wives.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:28] So it's a bold vision that he's presenting there.

John Dehlin [00:42:32] And you can't really say Brigham Young isn't relevant because the three largest universities within Mormonism are all named after him. Right?

Samantha Shelley [00:42:40] Yeah. And I mean, the LDS church is the Brighamite branch, isn't it? I mean, everyone didn't go to Brigham Young as the next prophet. After the leadership vacuum after Joseph died, this church came out of Brigham Young.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Yeah, that's right.

Celeste Davis [00:42:56] I think that polygamy is really what makes these quotes so sinister because it's like getting light and especially just like what Julia said. There's 52 women he's married to. Some of them were teenagers when he married them. And he's basically like, your job's to obey me. Like, it's very creepy. Kind of reminds me of the show under the Banner of Heaven when the scene where Joseph Smith is dictating scripture to Emma. And my whole life, I've just heard it as, like, this normal. Like, Emma, you need to watch yourself. You need to obey your husband. But then with, like, creepy music behind it, it just gave me the. The chills because it was like, emma, you must obey me. And that's all I can hear now when I hear these quotes. It's like, this is Our real heritage, is men being so creepy and abusive and controlling to women and just wanting to. To be. To control them.

Julia [00:43:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:48] Yeah, It's. It's a. It's a dark part of our past and present, honestly.

Julia [00:43:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] All right. If that weren't enough, you've got Orson Hyde here, Julia.

Julia [00:43:57] Yeah. So in the next year, in 1857, Apostle Orson Hyde of the First Presidency. So he's of the top three. He described the order of heaven as placing a man in the front rank. Hence, he is the first to be addressed. Woman follows under the protection of his counsels.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] He says, woman isn't that crazy.

Julia [00:44:13] Woman and the superior strength of his arm. Her desire should be unto her husband, and he should rule over her. No man can be exalted to a celestial glory in the kingdom of God whose wife rules over him. The woman who rules over her husband thereby deprives herself of a celestial glory.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] I mean, that's.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:34] I mean, what woman was successfully doing that back then? I feel like all of these men, like, a woman even just suggests, like, you know, the lowest bar possible that they maybe have to meet. And they're like, stop trying to control me. Because I'm like, what woman was controlling Orson or Brigham? Or Brigham was like, don't even complain, or we'll kick you out of the territory, and you'll be left to fend for yourselves.

Julia [00:44:56] They have barely had rights. They got voting rights later, and then they were taken away, like. Well, I don't know what he's referring to. That's a great question.

Alyssa Alexander [00:45:03] I also think it's worth noting that even though, you know, we can think, oh, one of the most popular. I think trying to distance ourselves from this quote is, oh, it was a different time. Things were separate then. But because we haven't been able to actually acknowledge that is not the same now. It's still the. You know, the ghosts of all of these quotes are still prevalent in the church right now. These were not just random dudes. They weren't even just, like, random leaders. They were, like you said before, Prophets, seers and revelators, they were theoretically talking to Jesus. They had the authority to say whatever they wanted. And now no matter how many times they say, you know, with flowerly, flowerly language like, don't worry, women, everything's going to be okay. If we can't actually make changes or even directly say Brigham was wrong or someone was wrong, these things are not true. They are generationally still such a large cultural part of Mormonism.

Julia [00:46:00] Yeah, perfect. That was great. I love how you worded that. Like, just like with racism, if you don't speak out against racism, then you still have work to do. And if a church who has said these sexist things in the past, if they're not speaking out against sexism, it's just going to continue. Like you said, the ghost of these quotes.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Yeah. And if that weren't enough, you're bringing in some Mormon Temple ceremony verbiage, right, Julia?

Temple Marriage Ceremony and the Hearken Covenant

Julia [00:46:26] Yeah, yeah. Does someone want to cover this one?

John Dehlin [00:46:27] And I'll just say this was actually, this is men speaking, so maybe. Maybe I'll read this one. But I'll just add, this is the temple ceremony I went through when I first went through my mission. So it's pre1990. I went into the MTC in 1988, so this would have been what I experienced. And so this is, you know, in the Mormon Temple ceremony, various covenants. Members make various covenants and various laws are presented to them, like the law of tithing. Give us 10% of your income for life. Another law that Mormons covenant to obey is the law of obedience. So that's what we're about to read. So Elohim says, this is. Elohim is God the father? Jesus, dad. Basically, in the Mormon Temple ceremony. So Elohim says, we will put the sisters under covenant to obey the law of their husbands. Sisters, arise. And then all the female patrons stand as instructed. And then Elohim says, each of you bring your right arm to the square. You. And each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe and keep the law of your husbands and. And abide by his counsel in righteousness. Each of you bow your head and say yes. All right, Time. Samantha. Alyssa. Well, you guys aren't raising your right arm. Okay. Alyssa's doing it. That's all right, Samantha. You're not down.

Samantha Shelley [00:47:54] I don't like to participate in any kind of group chant or.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Okay, Celeste, do you want to add anything to that?

Celeste Davis [00:48:00] Hate it.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Okay, so all the women bow their Head and say, yes. And then Elohim says, that will do. Then the female patrons resume and sit their seats. And then Elohim says, brethren, arise. And then all the men stand up. And then Elohim says, each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels and these witnesses at this altar that you will obey the law of God and keep his commandments. Each of you bow your head and say, yes. And then all the men go, yes. And then Elohim says, that will do. Okay, do we want to note any important discrepancies there?

Alyssa Alexander [00:48:44] Yeah.

Julia [00:48:46] So, yeah, you'll notice that the women, they. They observe to keep the law of their husband, and their husband keeps the law of God. And the language did change later. I think it was Harken, if I'm not mistaken. And then that has, I think, changed. I don't remember the. The 2024 changes, but it was obey the law of the. Your husband and then hearken to your husband. And then I can't. I don't know if anyone remembers. But yeah, it's. The women don't talk to God at any point, if I recall. They don't covenant to him.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] And why is it. Does anyone respond to the question, look, it's changed, so it doesn't matter anymore because they changed it. After there was enough Internet pressure, they changed it. So no harm, no foul.

Julia [00:49:24] Oh, has the woman. Do they let the women know the husband's name now? Have they changed that? Have they changed the other sexist parts of the temple?

John Dehlin [00:49:31] Is that a rhetorical question or.

Julia [00:49:33] Yeah, you don't have to answer that.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] No, they haven't. They haven't changed those parts. But, I mean, does anybody want to speak to that argument that, oh, they changed it recently just because you change,

Samantha Shelley [00:49:43] like, the details or the, the vibes of patriarchy. It's still patriarchy, and it's obviously still informed the way Daniel and Hannah would have been raised. I mean, their parents, I assume, both went through that temple ceremony. Maybe they didn't. They went through the more modern one, which was still sexist. I mean, it's all. You can't. You don't just remove something from a religious ceremony and have it just erased from the culture immediately. Like, it's still. It's going to keep percolating for a while, especially with no kind of. It's not like the church said, we've changed this because we realized it was bad and had these harmful, unintended consequences. You know, they've Never said anything to suggest that it was necessarily wrong. They're just updating the flavor of the patriarchy.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] Celeste, were you gonna say something?

Celeste Davis [00:50:33] Yeah, because we're not. We are unable to critique the brethren ever. And because the brethren aren't gonna ever say or don't ever say, oh, whoopsie, we were influenced by the culture of the times or whatever. We're still left with the assumption in Mormonism that this was God's will, that this is what God wanted. God wanted the women to obey the husband, and yet changed in the 90s, and then it changed again in 2018 or whatever, but still they're left with the assumption that. That for that time, for their parents, for their grandparents, for their great grandparents, that's what God wanted, was for the women to directly, like. Like, have their husband be their God figure that they had to obey. And because we can't say, like, oh, that was just a man thing. That was just the men. That was just, whoops, you know, it's the same problem with racism, right? We still have no apology and no explanation. And so members are still left with the assumption that God, for whatever reason, wanted to keep salvation and the temple from Black people for 100 years. And same with women.

Alyssa Alexander [00:51:37] And I feel like I'm just repeating what this point that is just drives me crazy in this whole discourse is, you know, 1990 was not that long ago. John, not to over flatter you, but you are not that old. And like, the fact that this is, you know, the way that beaming. He's beaming, he's like, yes, thank you. But the fact that this is, like, how you were raised, and then, you know, how you then went into parenting your children, and then I'm 28, and when I, you know, moved into a relationship, it was hearkening. And that still doesn't feel that great, you know, and so.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] So your husband covenanted with God in the temple, and then you covenanted to hearken to your husband in the temple.

Alyssa Alexander [00:52:15] Yes.

Celeste Davis [00:52:16] That was you?

Alyssa Alexander [00:52:16] That was me. That was me. Hello. And so, like, that was what I was thinking going into these relationships. And, you know, regardless of if. And I even at the time had questions, and the reason why I'm bringing this up is just because of how relevant it is to actual Mormon women who, you know, I think we also like to distance ourselves from these influencers a little bit, saying, like, oh, that's such an, you know, whoa, what a crazy story over there. But, like, I really struggled with this hearkening language. I, you know, talked to three different bishops about it because the first one was like, that's normal. The second one was like, that's normal. The third one was also like, yeah, girlfriend, that is literally what the temple says. And so I think the fact that it changed in 2019, the vast, vast, vast majority of Mormon adults who are endowed, that's what they hearkened unto. The vast majority of Mormon marriages that exist right now promised to have their women hearken unto their husbands or obey their husbands. And also you don't get re endowed either because they're doing temple work for new people. So like that dynamic. I think it would still technically be what their relationship would be under whether that's something that they would agree with or not. That is what the literal temple they've covenanted to make.

Julia [00:53:30] Excellent point.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Maybe just to put the rubber on the road. Do these articles give y' all the impression that Hannah hearkens to Daniel? Anyone want to give their opinion?

Samantha Shelley [00:53:41] I mean, yes, but it's maybe hard to say to what specific degree in their private lives, you know, we have pointers, we have indications in the article that I mean, yes, they are a patriarchal couple that where she is deferring to him and it seems like he takes on the presiding role, you know, the, the higher position of authority, you could say. But I suppose it's hard to know what their day to day looks like. It's just that this article gave a lot of yellow red flags to a lot of us.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Got it. Anyone else? Okay. All right, well, let's go. Are we going back to the article here, Julia?

Tradwives, Mormon Influencers, and Online Identity

Julia [00:54:27] Yeah. So this is more of the article. So. So this is Agnew again. One of the most influential tradwives is Nara Smith, a 22 year old Mormon model, 4 million Instagram followers, who talks in a voice so soft she sounds as though she has been brainwashed by a cult and is constantly pregnant and draining something fermented through muslin. Keep your be, keep up your beauty, says Estac Williams. 120,000 Instagram followers who gives off more of a submissive 50s housewife vibe. You and your husband will benefit.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:58] I will say about Nara Smith. I don't see her as much of a tradwife as I think this author interpreted. Because even though Nara is Mormon, she said herself that she doesn't consider herself super Mormon. Like I don't think she's especially orthodox. And I think the soft voice she puts on is because she understands content creation. And I've seen her talk in other videos where she has just more of a normal voice. She definitely puts on that, that soft ASMR type voice for her cooking videos to be, to be elaborate to, to make her videos engaging for the same reason that she puts on these like really over the top outfits that are very stunning. And so I feel like that's a bit of a. That's like her marketing strategy, that's her brand strategy. But I don't know if she's as much of a. I don't know that she would be considered a trad wife. I think she's, I mean she does is married and has children young, but she seems to just genuinely enjoy cooking. And a lot of her food that she'll make is clearly for social media engagement and it's not necessarily how they eat the whole time or anything. I don't know. I just question whether she's really a trad wife.

Julia [00:56:11] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:56:12] Should we define the difference between trad wife?

John Dehlin [00:56:14] Let's do it.

Alyssa Alexander [00:56:14] Versus stay at home mom versus domestic.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Go for it.

Alyssa Alexander [00:56:18] Oh, I don't necessarily have a perfect answer, but like somebody answered.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:21] And it's also worth saying even Hannah herself in the article said she doesn't. She knows she's not really a trad wife because I mean she's not like they have social media followers and obviously lots of inherited wealth and.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] Well, let's define the terms.

Alyssa Alexander [00:56:33] I think a real trad wife is a person who is living traditional values and I think traditional being defined in this particular realm of the Internet as like that 1950s American ideal. All of these quotes that the Mormon leaders have been saying, men, the head of the household, women submitting to them, women as stay at home moms. I really think that a really important distinction is how charged domesticity is in a lot of these areas. It's not just people like Nara who enjoys cooking, who cooks for the sake of being elaborate or who enjoys cooking, but does that because that is what it means to be a woman. That is what it means to be providing value as a human being. Was it Sherry Dew? I think that said something like being a woman and being a mother is the same thing. Like I think when I think of trad, I, I think myself of. Yeah, that hypercharged roles element as opposed to like the actual acts themselves.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Any others? Celeste, anything you want to add about what it means to be a tread wife?

Celeste Davis [00:57:37] I think it's interesting that none of these women want that label on them. Like not even Hannah. I don't know if I have the commentary on that. I just think that it is very interesting. Maybe they just know that that label comes with a lot of feelings for a lot of women that we have felt put in that box, and we don't appreciate other women gaining a lot of. Or trying to put us in that box as well. So. Yeah, I mean, it's funny to me. I thought that part of the article was funny where she said, I don't really identify as a tradwife because I'm struggling to think of anybody else online who does inhibit that kind of stereotype better. I don't know.

Alyssa Alexander [00:58:23] I would be curious to ask. Sorry, I'm jumping in too much. But I would be curious to ask actual tradwives who are living in rural areas who have more stakes in the actual game, like who are milking cows because that is how they get food, who aren't just doing it because they enjoy it, but because that's, you know, what access they have. They don't have the same amount of resources. So I do think that's a. There's a very, very big distinction between an Internet treadwife and being someone who is living in a really rural area with much less resources and access and does it less out of joy and beauty and more out of necessity.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:02] Yeah. And I feel like there's not really a lot of farming families that are earning a living doing meat and dairy these days because the meat and dairy industry is now has such a monopoly. I also feel like there's always an element of larping involved in trad wifery, and they almost all sense that. And also, I feel like religious groups or ideological groups generally don't like it when outsiders assign labels to them. So I feel like trad wife is sort of a. A label that outsiders have possibly come up with, and that's maybe why a lot of them don't identify with it. Or maybe the true tradwives, they're just not online as. And they shouldn't be.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] Yeah, yeah. Some of the other things I think of, you know, Hannah seems to say it's really important for her to never start a meal from, like, packaged ingredients.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:53] Oh, yeah. They don't do ready meals.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] Everything's from scratch.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:56] Yeah. It's not. We try to avoid, you know, processed food. It's. We don't do that.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] Yeah. And then a lot of them seem to homeschool, and then a lot of them seem to eschew an anesthesia in childbirth. Natural childbirth. Is it, you know, preferably at home. Am I right? Are these kind of other behaviors associated

Samantha Shelley [01:00:19] with this all just kind of this, like, play that they're performing in where they're like. To be. To live as is. And even though, like, nothing about the way they're living is traditional and like, the American 1950s patriarchal ideal is not. Like, that's not what our species has done for the majority of its history. For the majority of our species history, men and women have, like, shared child rearing and resource collection, and it's really not what, like, I feel like maybe a lot of tradwives are under the illusion that this is sort of. That it is traditional and that for the bulk of human history, this is how it's been done. So we don't get epidurals and we don't do. You know, we're back to the earth, but it's really just not.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] Not.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:59] It's not real. It's just like a fantasy that they've bought into. Not saying Hannah has, but, I mean,

John Dehlin [01:01:05] I guess Hannah might issue the term tradwife because she's earning a crap ton of money for her family. Right. And she's a breadwinner.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:13] She knows she has an unconventional life because of what she does.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] But then is there a challenge with that? Because is her audience, those who are trying to be like her, I guess, are. Are they making that? Are they working outside the home?

Alyssa Alexander [01:01:29] Probably not.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:01:31] Or if they are, I'm sure they're not having nearly the amount of success financially that she has.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] I mean, it's hard to get 10 million followers.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:40] Yeah, yeah. I mean, to have that many followers. I imagine a lot of her followers have nothing to do with trad wifery. It's just that they. It is just an interesting phenomenon to observe, you know, this gorgeous woman who, like, milks cows every day and has eight kids and makes everything from scratch. Like, I imagine a lot of her followers are just, like, random people that just are curious about their lifestyle because it's unique.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] All right?

Celeste Davis [01:02:07] And I think that's one of the reasons the article made such a big splash, was because we're so used to seeing Hannah and Hannah's face and Hannah doing ballet in her kitchen with her eight kids and Hannah cooking. But what we weren't used to seeing was a lot of Daniel. And so we were taken aback at the same time that Megan Agnew was taken back of, like, wait, I. I want to talk to Hannah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:02:27] Why?

Celeste Davis [01:02:27] What am I. Why am I keep talking to Daniel all day? Why is Daniel taking me around their farm all day? Why is Daniel controlling all the money? Why is Daniel the one with the name on the LCC llc? Why is, like, What?

Julia [01:02:38] What?

Celeste Davis [01:02:38] Who's this guy? You know, like, it's all work and face and effort and beauty and cooking, and yet Daniel's controlling the money. Daniel's the one behind the. You know.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:47] Anyway, I love the thought of wherever the journalist goes. It's just like, immediate Daniel jump scare, like he's popping out from behind the barn. Let me show you another thing.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Who is this guy? Why is he here? Why is he in all the shots? All right, Julie, let's go. You got a video clip. Do you want to set it up?

Julia [01:03:04] Yeah, I'll set up for a second. So this is a video kind of commenting on Agnew's commentary on Nara Smith's voice. So a lot of people have commented that the women in the Mormon Church, especially in general conference, they have this, like, software, like, slow tone. And this is just one of the.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] Do we call it Relief Society voice? Is that what we call it in Mormonism?

Julia [01:03:24] Yes, that's how I rely.

John Dehlin [01:03:26] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [01:03:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] Okay.

Julia [01:03:27] So this is a 2019 BYU Women's Conference, and this is where that clip comes in.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] It's an example of Relief Society voice.

Julia [01:03:35] She talks about. Well, she talks about the voice, but she does have a release cited voice.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:38] All right, here we go. The wheel is spinning. Here we go.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [01:03:47] We as women tend to be sometimes. Can we be shrill or demanding or stubborn?

Video Clip 1 [01:03:54] We think it's.

Video Clip 1 [01:04:00] We have the best idea ever, and

Video Clip 1 [01:04:03] if they don't see it our way,

Video Clip 1 [01:04:05] well, then clearly there's a problem here at.

Video Clip 1 [01:04:13] So all I want to say is

Video Clip 1 [01:04:14] sisters, when we ask that question that

Video Clip 1 [01:04:18] the apostles asked of the Savior, is it.

Video Clip 1 [01:04:21] I.

Video Clip 1 [01:04:22] That's a really good place to start

Samantha Shelley [01:04:27] with our shrillness. Start there, folks.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] Any comments?

Samantha Shelley [01:04:32] Nightmare. Blunt rotation. Just kidding. I love those women's energy.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] Julia, Celeste, anything y' all wanted to say about that?

Julia [01:04:39] I just. To me, she's sort of, like, schooling the women or like, teaching them how to talk. Like, don't you. Don't be shrill. Don't be demanding. You have to be calm. You have to be collected. Maybe, like, you know, if you ask yourself, like, is it I. Am I doing something wrong? Then, you know, start there, because you might be wrong. And like, we've had the other leaders. I think President Ballard said, you know, remember your place, women. And he's like, telling them, you know, don't get involved in the men's business. And anyway, I just thought that was an interesting way that this. That these women are kind of instructing other women how to talk.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] Got it.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:08] Also with that very familiar Energy of like, drawing them into, like this inside joke that we all share in together. And, you know, we can all make fun of how shrill we can be. And so it creates like, I don't know, it feels sort of safe to be sexist towards yourself. It's safe to oppress yourself, gals. It's fun, it's cute. Look at our blazers.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] All right.

Celeste Davis [01:05:32] Kind of jarring to see the, like, the women leaders just promoting this kind of like, just gaslight yourself a little into always thinking everything. We already don't have any authority and already have to constantly defer to men in terms of bishop and prophet and stake president and husband. It's like, and anytime there's any problem, don't go to ask yourself, am I, Is it me? It's me. Probably, Probably. It's always me.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:02] That's a really good point because it's like, why are we shrill? I feel like you're generally shrill because you're feeling unheard and so you're kind of escalating.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] One of my favorite Mormon stories moments of all time, Margaret Toscano talked about when she was activating for feminism in the early 90s, and she gave the analogy of like kids in the back of a car and it's really hot. And they're trying to say to the parents in the front seat, hey, can you turn up the air conditioner a little bit? And the parents are ignoring them. So they raise their voice a little more and the parents keep ignoring them. Why do kids shout? Because the parents ignore them. And it takes shouting to finally be heard. That was Margaret Toscano quote. All right, so we're going back to the article now, Julia.

Julia [01:06:52] Yeah, so she's talking about the. She's identifying her as a trad wife and then she's talking about Hannah's response to that. So she says. Neilman, however, thinks otherwise. I don't necessarily identify with it, she says, because we are traditional in the sense that it's a man and a woman. We have children. But I do feel like we're paving a lot of paths that haven't been paved before. That is the biggest paradox in selling the life of a stay at home mother. Neilman and the other trad wives have created high earning jobs. They are being paid to act out a fantasy. So for me to have the label of a traditional woman, she continues cautiously, I'm kind of like, I don't know if I identify with that. Is the husband the head of the household here? No, Daniel answers, we're co CEOs. Yeah. Neilman says we are.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] Okay. What's wrong with that? Any thoughts?

Samantha Shelley [01:07:38] The media trained.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] Okay. You're saying they're not sincere?

Samantha Shelley [01:07:43] No, no, I. I think. Well, I mean, do I think it's. Do I think that they are equal? No. They're part of a patriarchal ideology that they, like, fully stand by. So just, you know, so they're not really co CEOs in that sense. I mean, they maybe act like co CEOs of the business, though. I heard her name's not even on the business.

Alyssa Alexander [01:08:07] Yeah. I think it just comes back to this really common thing, too, where we love to say the term in Mormonism, and there are many quotes of men saying, treat your wives well. Men and women are equal. I think the family proclamation says it at some point, which just is completely different than what the rest of the actual instruction for the church is, which is these roles are really important. You know, that kind of separate but equal mentality. And it kind of. I mean, again, we don't necessarily know a lot about Hannah and Daniel's dynamic in their literal lives, but from the way that this article presents, it comes across that these two people like to use the term we're co CEOs, but then what they're actually doing is not that. And I think that that also feels really familiar and I think is a big struggle for women. Kind of like what Celeste was saying a minute ago about how this article made the invisible visible. I think a lot of women struggle with saying, hey, I feel like something's not quite right. I feel like there's some inequality here. And then they go, what? Nope. No, there's not. And, well, you can say, well, yes, there is. You know, here's the actual reasons this is the way. I don't feel like it's equal, but they can say no. Then I think people kind of run into a wall there.

Samantha Shelley [01:09:29] It's also highly possible, or even likely that, like, they're both happy with the division of labor that they have in their relationship, whether or not it's been, like, consciously or subconsciously prescribed to them. Like, they can be perfectly satisfied with the division of labor they have in their partnership. And it can still be worth us talking about in terms of, like, the wider implications of boys and girls from when they're children in the Mormon Church being taught those your specific roles. Because for every woman who's happy with that division of labor, there are women who aren't. And maybe Daniel doesn't take on a particularly authoritative role, although it does seem like he does based on other stuff. In the article. But like, there are plenty of other couples where that is happening and where there's more of an abuse of that power that Mormonism does grant him should he want to have it, you know, Celeste. Yeah.

Mormon Church Teachings on Women and Careers

Celeste Davis [01:10:28] I think it kind of goes back to women. Don't really Mormon women. It's very, very difficult to speak out against or critique in the Mormon order someone who is above you. Patriarchal. Like, there's an actual covenant in the temple not to speak ill of the Lord's anointed. Well, the Lord's anointed are all men. Right? So like baked into.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] That's a good point.

Celeste Davis [01:10:53] Baked into this system is like, don't speak ill against men. And it goes so, like deep and it's really hard to see, like it is kind of invisible when that's the air you've always breathed. But to me, I saw it so often as a woman who would have, you know, 10 years ago been exactly like Hannah and been like, no total equality everywhere. Love the Mormonism. There's no inequality here that I'm not a victim, I'm not oppressed. I wanted all these kids for sure. This is how I choose. I love to stay. Would have said all of that. Now I see things so differently. But even at the time when I was very, very active and I would have more women in my house, we had like a little sewing group in my basement. 11:00 clock at night rolls around and things start to come out of these very like, outwardly holding up the patriarchy, holding up trad wife life. Love it, love it, love it. And then things come out, oh, this, this isn't fair. Like, I. I don't have support, I don't have help. My husband is working all day long and I am exhausted and I am lonely and I am cooking and cleaning and doing everything all alone. Those things would start to come out, but they would never say them in public or at church or especially not to a journalist, you know, so there's this kind of like, undercurrent that I noticed. Even as a very active member across generations of women, I have to say I have definitely heard it from the mouths of women who are older and grandmas and anyway, but they don't say it publicly because we're kind of not allowed to. We're not allowed to speak ill of the God's anointed. And it's this kind of secret, like, invisible thing that's very, very frustrating again, when you try to point it out to people who can't see it. So this article is just, it points it out. This is what's, this is what it looks like. This is what's happening.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] Yeah. If I could just add really quickly, like Mormons I've noticed are really good at code switching. So I'll give you an example. Like with the teaching of ordinances and priesthood authority, it's absolutely Mormon doctrine that no baptism outside of Mormonism counts, otherwise we wouldn't do baptisms for the dead. But if you were to ask a Mormon talking to the world, is it true that you guys think that everyone else's baptisms are worthless? No Mormon alive is going to go, yep, all other non Mormon baptisms are worthless. They're going to go, oh no, we respect all paths. You know, like we baptism beautiful. Like they're not going to tell the world what they really believe. Am I wrong?

Samantha Shelley [01:13:18] Yeah, that's what I meant when I said that they were media trained in that totally is like. Yeah, there's Mormons are constantly having to like do that code switching because even they know that certain things are just going to seem crazy to the outside world.

John Dehlin [01:13:32] Yeah. Yeah. And so I was actually almost thinking you were vindicated, Samantha, because if you think about the proclamation on the family, are Daniel and Hannah orthodox believing Mormons? I mean they certainly present that way.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] We just read to the audience the proclamation of the family. That means they believe in the proclamation of the family. What did we just show the world the proclamation of the family says about the husband's role? He presides. Right. And then if you look at this quote, it's not asking in terms of the, the LLC that you've organized. The quote is, is the husband the head of the what the household. And so immediately Daniel says no. So the actual head of the household, when he's talking public facing, he's going to decline that he's the head of the household. Even though that proclamation on the family that's almost guaranteed to be hanging on their wall says that he's the head that he presides. Am I wrong?

Celeste Davis [01:14:27] I also think in his own mind it's very, very likely that he really does believe. He's not like, I really think he probably does believe that, that it's completely equal because that's the example. That's the fish, the water he's swimming in this. His parents, his brothers, his grandparents, everyone has that kind of marriage. And so it's hard to see if you, if you're not used to having that kind of language attached to it. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:14:50] Which is partially why having a journalist who's an outsider, who's from Britain, England, wherever, comes in and is able to observe this dynamic for a few hours and just kind of set the scene, which is a lot of what she was doing and how they left the interview saying, that felt great, that felt very normal. You know, we didn't have any major confrontations. She didn't, you know, call us out on everything, but she's able to just pick up on some of their dialogue, some of their body language. And then it says a picture that I think again, seems so familiar for people within the church that until it's actually printed like that, we don't notice or it's harder to articulate.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] Yeah. All right, well, Julia, now you've got a quote from one of our favorite apostles, my personal cousin, Ezra Taft Benson. You want to set this up?

Julia [01:15:37] Yeah. So this is just in 1981 and he's kind of talking about the stereotype of the Mormon woman. And I want to read this and then like, because I think I can give like a jumping off point for discussing this whole thing, but. So Apostle Ezra Tuft Benson warned that beguiling voices in the world cry out for alternative lifestyles for women. They maintain that some women are better suited for careers than for marriage and motherhood. These individuals spread their discontent by the propaganda that there are more exciting and self fulfilling roles for women than homemaking. Some have even been bold to suggest that the church move away from the Mormon woman stereotype of homemaking and rearing children. They also say it is wise to limit your family so you can have more time for personal goals and self fulfillment. Because that's bad. That's me. Sorry. It is a misguided idea that a woman should leave the home where there is a husband and children to prepare educationally and financially for an unseen, unforeseen eventuality. Too often, I fear even women in the church use the world as their standard for success and basis for self worth. So I, So to me, like, so he's saying that we, you know, the church is going for the stereotype of the, the Mormon woman and it's misguided to move away from that. And so one thing that I'm seeing with Hannah is that she is doing this traditional, she's doing what he says, you know, she's taking care of her kids, she's taking care of her home. But like she's, this is a career for her. This is, you know, it's ballerina farm. And I do think it's interesting that the he says CEOs and they're, they're co. CEOs, but her name isn't anywhere on the paperwork to my knowledge. But anyway, yeah, so like she seemed to, she seems to have found a loophole to make this, this is her career. But even though like this is the only acceptable career as far as Mormon doctrine or Mormon teachings. And so like, what about the women that, that want other careers? Like they, they can't or they're not as supported because it's not this specific thing. I don't know if you guys have other comments on that.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:32] Yeah, it's worth noting that she has a lot of status within the patriarchal Mormon system because she has 10 million followers. And like, so she probably, I imagine from her content creation is getting a sense of creative fulfillment. She's getting like social approval and status points in and outside of her in group. So she, she kind of is like a success story of that system. But again, it's like the, the backbone of all of it is such that for every Hannah there's gonna be, you know, 100 women who don't get to do that. And that's why we see so many Mormon women, I feel like, fall into like MLMs and like affinity fraud stuff because they have this like creative energy or like they have. There's more in them. You know, they. Homemaking isn't always the most exciting thing for every woman. I love how that quote we just read said it was propaganda to say that there's anything more exciting than homemaking for a woman. I'm like, I don't think that's the right message to be sending because that's not believable. But like, yeah, can we go around

Panelists Reflect on Growing Up in the Church

John Dehlin [01:18:42] the horn and just have each of you share very briefly what message you got as you were a teenage girl in the church about career, profession? Start with you, Alyssa.

Alyssa Alexander [01:18:53] Yeah. And this was in the 2000 and tens. Early 2000 and tens. Yeah. The idea was very much like, if you go to school, you should do that just in case your husband gets hit by a bus. That was extremely common rhetoric. I always was taught, again, both explicitly and implicitly through the church, that if I were to have a career, I would need to find possibly a part time job that I could do with children, go to school for something that would be a flexible job or for children. And again, this is something that does make a lot of people happy. But when you're only funneled into one choice, so many people aren't fulfilled by that. I think it's just a lack of variety of options. That is what puts women in such a difficult position. And yeah, I mean, the classic example of women being taught how to like, iron men's dress shirts at young women's activities, I think, like, that really was just such a common thing. And also kind of like, on that same note, I was taught all of these things not as you can learn how to iron a man's dress shirt and be babysitting the children in the warmed gym for free just because these are good life skills to learn. Everybody is going to have to learn how to make dinner for themselves at some point to be a full grown, competent adult. And this is what you do to be worthy, good woman and good person in general.

Celeste Davis [01:20:16] And I.

Alyssa Alexander [01:20:17] So I think like, that charged element was really, really relevant when I was growing up and into college.

John Dehlin [01:20:24] Celeste.

Celeste Davis [01:20:26] Yeah, I think this brings up a really interesting discussion around choice because there is a very big discussion happening Online and on TikTok around Hannah Nealman. And if she's living, she's just living out her exactly what she chose for her life. And so get off her back. This is what she chose. This is what she wanted. She's choosing this currently. Like, she's choosing to live differently. That's her choice. And I have an interesting relationship with that word because again, if you would ask me when I was in my 20s or early 30s, I've been like, oh, I could have worked. I could have worked. It was my choice. And now I see it as like growing up. It's not like the two choices were handed to me as completely equal. Like, you can have a job if you grow up or you can be a mom, either one. No, it was like, it's as if, like I was at a, like a crossroads. And one road said, like, God's will, and one road said Satan's will. And I was like, what's your choice?

Julia [01:21:15] It's your choice. What do you.

Celeste Davis [01:21:16] What do you want to choose? You know, it's like, that's my choice. But, like, why would I choose Satan's way? Like, why would I choose this way anyway? So it was very much the implicit understanding, expectation, implicit and explicit to have. If you're going to work, mom is on top. Mom is the top priority. That is the main goal. That is literally why you're here on the earth. To multiply, replenish the earth. That is your purpose. And even when I went on a mission, I had people in my life being like, well, that's not your top purpose. Like, your top purpose is to be a wife. And A mom. And even when I, like, got my master's degree, my mother in law was like, well, you're not going to use it right? Just like biding your time until you can have kids, you know? So.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] Julia. Thanks, Celeste. Julia?

Julia [01:22:03] Yes. The messaging I received is that an education for me is worthless because the husband is going to be working and I. And I'll be home with the kids. And then I was able to. I did go get my degree. And then again, like Alyssa was saying that the degree is only. It's only like a. The plan B. It's a. Just, just in case something happens to your husband. So just get something that'll like, like, I minored in marriage and family relations, like, because that was going to help with my kids. Like, so my career or my. My college career was just to. As a backup and support. So like, no, education and career was absolutely not on the radar.

John Dehlin [01:22:36] Okay. And then I know you were a convert in your teen years, Samantha. Anything you want to add?

Samantha Shelley [01:22:40] Yeah, And a combat in England. So I feel like they are a bit more wary of that messaging. Although I did go to byu, Idaho and got all the same messaging that everyone's just described. And after becoming Mormon, I did almost immediately sort of de. Emphasize academic success in favor of, you know, more feminine pursuits. Like, you're just obsessed with getting married as a Mormon teenage girl. Like, every young woman's activity you go to is about that. You're constantly vision boarding and thinking about what you want in a husband and.

John Dehlin [01:23:18] Yeah, and while we're on that topic, how unheard of, you know, Hannah and Daniel are married after three months of meeting. How unheard of is that in your experiences, Alyssa?

Alyssa Alexander [01:23:29] Not unheard of. It is embarrassingly common.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] Yeah. Quick marriages.

Alyssa Alexander [01:23:35] Yeah. Not. Not too far from my lived experience.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Oh, do you want to say your first marriage?

Alyssa Alexander [01:23:43] Yeah. Got married really quickly and it turned out bad. So that didn't be me, Samantha. What?

John Dehlin [01:23:50] Same thing. Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] Oh, wow. So both of you got married quickly and it didn't turn out bad?

Samantha Shelley [01:23:54] I mean, I wouldn't say it turned out bad. It didn't turn out patriarchally bad because I still was an English girl, but too fast. I mean. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:24:03] Yeah. Yeah. Julia, I don't even know how old you were when you got married, if you want to share.

Julia [01:24:09] So I dated my ex husband for three weeks before we got engaged.

John Dehlin [01:24:12] What the.

Julia [01:24:15] But we dated for three months, so that was, you know, before we got married.

John Dehlin [01:24:18] Oh, my gosh.

Alyssa Alexander [01:24:20] I see no problem.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] And Celeste, do you want to say yeah, sure.

Celeste Davis [01:24:29] I was engaged within two months of dating my husband.

John Dehlin [01:24:31] So, like, this is like, she's like, Daniel and Hannah are just right on.

Celeste Davis [01:24:37] Yeah. Wow.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:38] Get married while the honeymoon chemicals are strong.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] See, Margi and I got married after 10 months. 10 months after meeting.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:45] So very restrained of you both.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] I thought it was a long way.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Yeah, for sure. Wow. Okay, so now, if we haven't invoked enough disturbing past Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators, now you want to inflict upon us Joseph Fielding Smith. Julia, what do you want to say about that?

Julia [01:24:59] Yeah, so this one. This one's more about the career, but I also have this next slide that I think is really interesting. So In January of 1971, in the same ensign, President Joseph Fielding Smith warned that the forces of evil were attacking the family. President Smith cautioned, do you spend as much time making your family and home successful as you do in pursuing social and professional success? Are you devoting your best creative energy to the most important unit in society, the family? Or is your relationship with your family merely a routine, unrewarding part of life? Parent and child must be willing to put family responsibilities first in order to achieve family exaltation. And so, like, he's just speaking into the career. And I will say, like, Hannah's been able to, like, work around that or have this loophole, but if you go to the next slide. So I went to the church's website to see. To grab this, the URL for the show notes, and it brought up this warning. It says, archived content Editor's Note. Articles in the archive may reflect practices in language of an earlier time. Find more current information by searching churchofjesuschrist.org and I checked that whole rest of the year because this is January. I checked all of 71. I checked all of 1972, and this never comes up again. So, like, maybe there was something else in the Ensign article, but I just thought that was really interesting that they. That they bring this up like, this is, you know, reflecting practices of an earlier time. And this is, again, this is an apostle of the Lord. This is a prophet of God speaking, and he's giving this. I don't know. I just thought that was really interesting.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] I mean, oh, there's so much here. Like, on the one hand, I want to give the church credit because that's great. That's a great disclaimer. And the church has changed the message. On the other hand, these quotes and passages are in books on everyone's shelves. They're in magazines, in everyone's archives. They're in Sunday school manuals. And they're what parents and grandparents and bishops and leaders were taught, like we said for generations. And so that stuff doesn't wash off. It doesn't go away. And just because, like, on the Internet, a disclaimer, a very vague general disclaimer is given. It doesn't even denounce it or apologize. And so, like, how much does that little disclaimer really impact culture? Pretty much none. Even though I want to say, good job, church. What do y' all think?

Samantha Shelley [01:27:17] I think you said it perfectly.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] Okay, Sorry.

Alyssa Alexander [01:27:19] And it's also an editor's note, too. It's not like it's a quick, you know, even the First Presidency saying, hey, you know, note from the First Presidency, we have removed this. It's like, oh, this is just. The people on the website decided this was all, like, is how it comes across. It's just not really doing much to say that it was not acceptable. Teachings for language.

John Dehlin [01:27:40] And there's never the donation, the denunciation, like, don't believe this shit anymore. You know what I mean? It's more just like, sorry, we taught

Samantha Shelley [01:27:47] this constantly in worse and worse ways than even this our bad.

John Dehlin [01:27:51] It's more just like, hey, we have new thoughts now.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:53] Hey, don't hold us accountable.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] Yeah. All right. All right. So now we've got a video of Ezra Tap Benson. Julia.

Alyssa Alexander [01:28:00] Yeah.

Julia [01:28:00] This is from his talk to the Mothers in Zion. And this is from 1987.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] All right. What does Ezra Benson, former president of the Mormon Church, have to say about mothers? Numerous divorces can be traced directly to the day when the wife left the home and went out into the world in two immortal employment. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:30] Why would exposure to the world make a woman no longer want to be with her husband?

Alyssa Alexander [01:28:37] Also, isn't this the exact article or the same reason why women weren't supposed to vote? Because it was too dangerous to go to the polls. Like, we're just regurgitating the same ideas.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:47] It's not good for a woman to hold a pen.

Alyssa Alexander [01:28:49] Yep. Very, very scary.

John Dehlin [01:28:52] Celeste. Anything? I see a smile.

Celeste Davis [01:28:54] It's just a classic patriarchal control. Like in the book. Thousand Splendid Suds is a fictional book, but about, like, Afghanistan in the 90s, and women were absolutely forbidden from going out in public, you know, like, to stay in the home. Absolutely. Like, stay in the home. It's just like, textbook controlling women stay

Samantha Shelley [01:29:12] in the home, which Brigham Young explicitly taught as well. There was a time where he was basically saying, like, too many women are getting together to kind of gab outside the home. It's best if you will just stay locked in your houses.

Julia [01:29:26] Yeah. He's specifically about the Relief Society. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:29] And it shows how, like, the fragility of men under patriarchy, like the fact that you have to literally keep women isolated or they might realize something about, you know, whether or not they want to be with you. I mean, what, what would we typically think when we hear like, of a woman being isolated or anyone in a relationship being isolated from the outside world? Like, that's a standard indicator of abuse.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] What would y' all say to the idea of somebody saying, look, a kid's gonna do best with the full time caretaker? It's efficient for us to have the, the, the man working. I like staying home as a mom. I love motherhood. I want to have kids. I'd rather not work. I'd rather give my kids all my time and attention. And so we do division of labor and that's how we divide it.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:18] Yeah, that's great if that's what you want to do. I feel like I would, if I was a parent, I'd want to be a stay at home mom because I feel like I would genuinely enjoy that work. But that's for men to be prescribing it across the board to all women, I don't think is good. And I think it has a really negative impact on children. Like, children suffer when their mothers are not creatively fulfilled or emotionally fulfilled, socially fulfilled, like all of them. You can't isolate a woman just to her family and like, expect her family to provide for her every need as like a complex human being. And then not like kids pick up on that stuff and they suffer. And then it's like, what message is that sending to little girls? You know, like, this is what I have to look forward to. I mean, it's kind of like how what a Mormon women have to look forward to in terms of like, when we look to Heavenly Mother for like, what's it going to be like for eternity? Well, we're not even talking about her. She's apparently doing she's. Women are primarily responsible for the nurture of children. But on this plane in our second estate, we're just praying to the Man. For some reason, we don't even get to communicate with her.

Alyssa Alexander [01:31:25] Yeah, I think, of course, women can be stay at home mothers and they can have these like, traditional roles in the home. And I think that people who feel fulfilled by that is amazing. I think it works for many people, and for many people it doesn't work. The problem is Continually this idea that this is the only way or this is the best way. And, you know, we can look at, even for each individual couple to be able to say, okay, what is going to help, you know, each parent's mental health or however many parents are at home, you know, what are the individual child's needs? What are each parent's individual needs? And how can we best raise the child? I think that. I mean, it's crazy that this is becoming controversial, but it seems like that is so much of Mormon history that there's only one. And.

Celeste Davis [01:32:08] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [01:32:09] Also what's annoying about it is it's coming across from this, you know, trying to say this is the best thing for children. And so women should feel guilty without actually acknowledging other options that can be good for children and ways to make everybody involved healthy. And I think just that argument that there's only one way to raise healthy children can add so much guilt and pressure to people who are not fulfilled from it or who necessitate slightly different from this very traditional, conventional setup.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] Yeah. For the orthodox Mormons out there, can a child be healthy and happy if his mom works? An orthodox Mormon might not know the answer to that question. Anyone.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:48] And have been taught that, like, generally. No. Like, it's generally going to have a bad impact on your children if you work well.

Julia [01:32:57] Oh. So hang on. So I was a nanny for my bishop and his wife. His wife is a doctor, and I was a nanny for them for years. They had four kids, and they. They were just fine. They were happy, healthy. They performed really well in school. So the mom would just come home every evening and, you know, have the evening with them. Like a normal 9 to 5 job with, you know, a man, you know? So I would. I would push back and say, I don't think it is unhealthy for children if things are done right. Like, I know the daycare can be hard, but, like. Like, as a nanny, the kids did really great.

John Dehlin [01:33:26] Were you gonna say something, Celeste?

Can Women Genuinely Choose the Homemaker Life

Celeste Davis [01:33:29] Yeah, I was gonna jump on the conversation of just, like, can a woman be happy at home? Like, of course. Like, of course they can. And just like Alyssa and Sam said, the problem is when we push that out as a prescription for all women. I got this idea from Sonia Johnson, but it's always stuck with me that, like, men get to be whatever they want, right? They get to choose their passion and their vocation. They get to be a farmer or a CEO or a writer or a professor or a scientist. But women are squished as a monolith, as if the same thing will fulfill every single one of half the population of the earth. Homemaking. Right. And that's supposed to fulfill us and be our duty and no, like, what if. I mean, when we flip the script and say, like, what if all men were forced to be farmers? Only 2% of men currently are farmers. And not every man would want to do that kind of work. And so saying that every woman should be fulfilled at home is the problem because not every woman is going to be fulfilled making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and chauffeuring her kids to soccer and I. Well, also in our society, we do tend to squish mother and caretaking roles such as cooking and cleaning. And they should be separate. You should have be able to have a relationship with your kid without necessitating the cooking and the cleaning and the chauffeuring and all of that. But right now, they're kind of one. So to say that all women should be fulfilled by that is crazy. And it's making us all in. Into this one thing. And I think also in this conversation, it's just like just the ones that we just had is, well, what's best for the kids, what's best for the family? It's never asked like, what's best for the woman, because we don't care. Because we just think that the woman should always be the sacrificer for her, for the children, for what's best for the children. But the woman is a human too. And we should ask be asking, like, what is best for the woman? And if you've read the Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan and this, the phenomenon that was in the 1960s, there was so just the fact that that was a phenomenon pointing out this problem with no name, the depression of housewives. It's not fulfilling for all women. It's clearly not. And so the fact that we need this propaganda to be told to us in the church over and over and over and over and over, this is the most fulfilling thing. You love this. This is the most fulfilling thing. This is your purpose on earth. It's infuriating. And I think it has to be that way because it's clearly not working for all women.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:44] Yeah, they wouldn't have to contain constantly be reinforcing the narrative and the prescription. If it just obviously was the most fulfilling thing, then it. And, and they're always reinforcing gender roles, which they say are so fixed and eternal. But, you know, they constantly got to be corralling you into the right box there because apparently it's not so natural and obvious.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] And can I just add a final touch? In Mormonism, we always forget this. In Mormonism, it's worse than men are telling women what their ultimate role is. It's not men, it's God. When a Mormon prophet, seer and revelator, special witness of Christ, says, Ezra Benson, pick your dude. Joseph Smith. When they say a woman's place is in the home, no birth control, as many kids as possible, the husband, they're speaking for God and Jesus to a Mormon. So it's not the men talking, it's God and Jesus telling women what he wants their role to be. And then what happens if you took this because it was God saying you needed to take this role? What happens when you're not fulfilled? Mormon women? If God was the one who told you you needed to be fulfilled by

Alyssa Alexander [01:36:54] that role, then you're not listening to God. Then. Then you're sinning.

John Dehlin [01:36:58] Or if you do it and you're miserable, then what?

Alyssa Alexander [01:37:01] Then you're not fulfilling your heavenly role as a human. God's mad at you.

John Dehlin [01:37:08] Celeste, what does a Mormon mom feel if she's obeying God, becomes a mom, and then she wants to die, it's your fault.

Celeste Davis [01:37:15] You're doing something wrong. You're not faithful enough, you're not doing it well enough, you're not going hard enough. Somehow this is on you.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] Yeah. And that can lead to really bad consequences. Yeah. Okay, should we go back to the quote, Julia, to the story?

Julia [01:37:32] Yeah. So this is one another part that I just thought was really interesting of why she stops herself when she's answering a question. So Agnew asks, is she a feminist? I feel like I'm a femin. She stops herself. Hannah, there are so many different ways you could take that word. I don't even know what feminism means anymore. She absolutely feels as though she has become politicized by other people. We try so hard to be neutral and be ourselves and people will put a label on everything. This is just our normal life. And do you guys have thoughts on why she would have stopped herself from saying that she's a feminist?

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:04] I mean, I think it's that media training kicking in and also the part of her audience that she is trying to be aspirational to. There is a lot of crossover between trad wives and this anti feminist idea, this binary thinking between being a trad wife or you're a single cat lady, although you do it. Lovely, Sam.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:27] So nice.

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:28] But I think like this inability to sort of see any sort of nuance in women's roles. I think some of her content, I think caters to that audience that would be worried about the term feminist in particular. And so when she says that it's politicized that they try to be neutral. I think that, like, what they're doing and having such a huge following is inherently not neutral. She's not just living her normal life, she's posting it, trying to literally influence 10 million people.

John Dehlin [01:39:02] Yeah. And this is a really important Mormon context, especially for Mormons who don't know their history, which is most Mormons. And for never Mormons. You know, a viewer just wrote. Leanne York Tate just wrote, feminism is an F word to Mormons. Let me just explain. In 1993, I'm at BYU, a bunch of Mormon feminists come out, publish books, start talking about feminism, start talking about Heavenly Mother, praying to mother in heaven and trying to educate the church membership about the pros of feminism. And they're excommunicated. Look it up. September 6th, Lavina Fielding Anderson, Maxine Hanks, Margaret Toscano, others. Right? And then Fast forward to 2014. Another prominent Mormon feminist starts leading an ordained women movement to try and get, you know, women ordained, the priesthood in the church, they all identify as feminists. And of course, the leader of that ordained women movement in 2014 is excommunicated. So the Mormon Church has a long history of excommunicating self proclaimed feminists. So is it any wonder that Hannah Neeleman doesn't want to embrace the. The title or the label?

Samantha Shelley [01:40:18] Yeah, it almost read to me like she maybe in her own mind sees herself as maybe a bit of a feminist, but she's also aware of how her community might respond to her taking on a label like that.

John Dehlin [01:40:30] Yeah. Celeste, anything you want to add there?

Julia [01:40:35] I was struck by the, like, if

Celeste Davis [01:40:36] we just try to be neutral, like it's a very Mormon woman thing, like very conflict averse. Like you're putting the politics. We're not. Don't ever talk about politics. We don't ever talk about politics. We're just so neutral and like. But their lives inherently kind of aren't, you know?

Alyssa Alexander [01:40:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] Yeah. All right. Well, Julia, the next little section's about birth control. Do you want to. Do you want to. Should we jump to that quote?

Birth Control, Large Families, and Church Doctrine

Julia [01:40:59] Yeah. So there's a little scene that Megan Agnew has with this family. She says, we passed the mini. The family's minibus, a 15 seater is the aim to fill it someday.

Alyssa Alexander [01:41:09] Yeah.

Julia [01:41:10] Daniel says, we are getting old and worn out. Neilman says, baby Flora Strapped to her chest, sounding less sure. So we'll see.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] So is the idea to fill it. The man says yes, the idea is to fill the minivan, the 15 passenger minivan.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:25] It's five more kids. It's ambitious.

John Dehlin [01:41:29] Yeah. I pressured Margi into having more kids than she wanted. I did. Full on. And she had four. Right. So, I mean, yeah. All right. Well, Julie, you've got a quote. Is this the church's history as it relates to birth control?

Julia [01:41:45] Yes, the church has a strong history with this. So this is from 1918. This is the prophet Joseph F. Smith. He taught those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord and to prevent their offspring from coming into the world in obedience to this great command are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise of eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they. For by their acts they prove their unworthiness for exaltation and unfitness for a kingdom where the crowning glory is the continuation of the family union and eternal increase which have been promised to all those who obey the Lord. Obey the law of the Lord. So, like, he's also saying, like, you know, if you. You need to have all the kids you can now, or you're not promised exaltation. And this is reflecting of what you're worthy for in the next life, because that's what you're going to be doing in heaven. You're going to be continually having children.

John Dehlin [01:42:37] And that's Joseph F. Smith, who was a prophet, president of the church. And so Mormons believe that when a prophet speaks, he's speaking for God and Jesus. So that quote's going to still have impact today. Right?

Julia [01:42:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] All right, you got another quote, Julia.

Julia [01:42:54] This is from the 60s. So this is Joseph Fielding Smith, now

John Dehlin [01:42:57] the son of Joseph F. Smith, Right?

Julia [01:42:59] So he says. Now, I wish to ask a question. How will a young married couple feel when they come to the judgment and then discover that there were certain spirits assigned to them and they refused to have them? Moreover, what will their punishment when they discover? What will be their punishment when they discover that they have failed to keep a solemn covenant and spirits awaiting this mortal life were forced to come here elsewhere when they were assigned to this particular couple.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] Reactions?

Samantha Shelley [01:43:28] It's an interesting idea that God would allow a spirit to suffer because a young married couple decided to not have a child yet, you know, like, oh, they have to go elsewhere. Okay, they have to go elsewhere. What's the issue? Isn't it good that they weren't born to a couple that wasn't ready.

Celeste Davis [01:43:47] Good point.

Julia [01:43:49] I just think I just see like

Celeste Davis [01:43:51] control of women because again, who is it going to impact the most to have a bunch of babies? The husband. Oh, he's off at work. Like it's going to affect the woman again, it's going to affect her body, it's going to affect her health, it's going to affect her mental health, it's going to affect. So whether the fact again, never ever asking the question, is this good for the woman, Is this good for the wife? What does the wife want? You know, just like have the babies, have more babies, have all the babies. Regardless of your health, regardless of your mental health, regardless of your desires, it doesn't impact the man nearly as much as it's going to impact the woman. So it's just controlling women.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:23] And I feel like those quotes are in a time where fathers, especially like Mormon fathers were maybe even more hands off with the child rearing. So it's just interesting how the, the worst thing you can be as a woman making the choice to not be a mother. But it's just showing how like the whole system runs on like women providing this labor that the men are like, is your moral duty to provide us with this labor? There is one path for you. It's like that the men are upheld by this like almost forced labor.

Celeste Davis [01:45:00] It's not just in the 60s too. I mean there was like an article in what the New York Times last month about by a man saying Taylor Swift should not be a role model because she doesn't have kids. You know, and Harrison Butler just a few months ago saying like, women role is in the home. It's to have kids. This is not just in the 60s. It's still men telling us it's still so threatened by women taking autonomy for their own lives.

Julia [01:45:24] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Well, vice president candidate J.D. vance recently basically said we shouldn't have what, single cat ladies running our country. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:38] Because one thing about single cat ladies is we are corporate oligarchs.

Alyssa Alexander [01:45:45] It's just like this. The other thing with like that lack of birth control thing as well, and with this idea of if you don't have kids, you're losing your entire purpose as a woman is we're again separating into these really dramatic camps of you either have no birth control, you are a trad wife with as many children as you are physically able to conceive, hopefully enough to fill a minibus, or you hate children completely and like don't like traditional families or nuclear families. It's Just like, we're pitting these women, and there's only two ways to exist as a person rather than recognizing, like, all the nuance and complexity within that. And I think that's another thing that the Mormon doctrine does so well is make women feel like, even if, I mean. Okay, I'm gonna speak for mom. Hi, mom, if you're listening, I'm gonna tell a story about you. She had two kids and she was asked all the time, like, oh, why didn't you have more kids? And I was asked all the time, like, at random grocery stores by clerks, oh, like, is your mom unable to have more children? Like, what a weird thing to say to an 8 year old also. But it was so common and my family was very orthodox and traditional. But just the idea of only having two is like, you're still not fulfilling. You know, something's lacking. And also, like, my dad was never questioned about this, at least that I know of. He can tell me if otherwise. But at least for most of the conversation, it was like, oh, mom, you, you know, didn't want more. That's kind of weird.

Julia [01:47:14] Yeah, that reminds me. That reminds me. So. So of the top 15, you have Oaks and Nelson, who have a lot of kids. I think Oaks or Nelson has. Has eight and then Oakes has six. But the rest of them have an average of like three or two. So, like, your. Your mom having two. I mean, what are. Are the apostles and prophets not getting the message that they need to have. Have a lot of kids? Or, like, has times changed? Like, I don't know. I just thought that was interesting because, like, my parents never got the message that small families are okay. They had so many kids.

Alyssa Alexander [01:47:41] Anyway.

Julia [01:47:42] I just thought that was interesting.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] I know Holland, quote, only has three kids, Holland and Pat. And I say that in air quotes. Let me just push back a tiny bit, maybe. So I remember growing up as a Mormon that there were families with 12, with 12 kids. I remember that a lot. I do want to say that the church, and we're going to play a clip in a second, but I do want to say that the church at one point had a formal policy that birth control was a no, no. But at some point they changed that and now they no longer, in modern times, teach that birth control is bad. So in that way, the church has, quote, gotten better or more progressive. And so in some ways, you could argue what Hannah and Daniel Neeleman are doing is not really the norm for modern Mormons. Most modern Mormons probably have, on average, three kids, on average. And maybe four, five or six if they're getting really heavy. And maybe one or two if they have fertility problems or are slackers. What do you guys think about, and I say that jokingly, but what do you guys think of the idea that, that Hannah and Daniel are actually going way outside the norm for 2024?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:57] When I was an institute 10 years ago, I think me and Hannah are similar ish age. The manual still had an entire section on birth control and it was just full of quotes from prophets and apostles talking about how it's bad. So it you, you know, they still have act when they're thinking about birth control. Maybe you go to the church's website, you look up quotes about birth control. I don't know, but it's like once again just one of those things where you can't have like an entire history of quotes from prophets and apostles talking about how birth control is not God's design and then just have that, you know, like not be in people's psyches anymore or in the culture's psyche.

John Dehlin [01:49:33] But still, y' all don't have a lot of friends with eight kids, right?

Celeste Davis [01:49:37] I have, I might. One of my closest friends has eight kids. My, one of my sister in laws has nine kids and another, my sister in law has seven kids. So it's not at super. I was just in a very righteous strain of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] And Julia, what about you Julia? Friends, family that have more.

Julia [01:49:58] Yeah, I have a lot of cousins that have a lot of kids and they're still having kids. There's people in my, my old ward that have just a lot of kids. But yeah, the people like in my immediate surroundings just have a few kids. But yeah, it's definitely here too.

John Dehlin [01:50:10] Okay, so it's still very Mormon to have a lot of kids. I'm hearing you say, just not everybody who's choosing that.

Alyssa Alexander [01:50:16] I think Hannah's whole thing seems like slightly exaggerated, but not outside of regular Mormonism. It kind of feels like Mormonism if everybody had a father in law who was a billionaire to be able to have 300 acres in Camas, Utah. But like the general again, I mean not every Mormon is churning their own butter for sure. Most probably aren't, but so it seems like some of these things are definitely exaggerated and that hence you know, a giant social media platform. But I think overall the general attitudes, having a big family, even if eight is select, you know, is 10% above your average Mormon. I don't actually know what the average Mormon percentage of children is. It's not shocking By Mormon standards.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] Okay. All right, well, you've got a clip here from Spence W. Kimball. Should we set that up, Julia?

Julia [01:51:11] Yeah. So this is his talk. Fortify your homes against evil. And this was given April of 1979.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] Okay. So relatively recently, multiply and replenish the earth and subdue. It was the directive given in the Garden of Eden. Selfishness is an element that breaks and corrodes and destroys marriages as it destroys lives and all that is good. It is an act of extreme selfishness for a married couple to refuse to have children when they are able to do so. Wow. So can I just ask you all. There's a part in the article, and I don't know if you're going to cover this later, Julia, Forgive me if you are, but where Hannah basically says something to the effect of, I've asked God when to stop having babies, and he just hasn't told me to stop yet, so I'm gonna keep going until God tells me to stop. Do y' all want to comment on that?

Samantha Shelley [01:52:16] I mean, she has a lifetime of conditioning leading up to that. You know, she's. She says she gets pregnant nine months after every baby she births. So she has nine months not being pregnant, and then gets pregnant again, I think was the bit. But, yeah, it's like what we feel like our deity is saying to us. I mean, it's really just like, our own psyche returning the call. And what cultural conditioning has she received, what we just saw? Have as many children as you can. Selfish, not to others.

John Dehlin [01:52:46] Other thoughts. I mean, Celeste, I think there's.

Celeste Davis [01:52:52] It also plays into this glorifying of suffering that is all throughout Mormonism. Like, there's a quote from Ruslan Nelson that I've seen on, like, Instagram with, like, a nice picture in the background that, like, if your journey isn't uphill, it's the wrong road. Like, you're supposed. It's supposed to be hard, right? Like this, like, glorifying of suffering. So I can imagine that playing into this decision and kind of what I said earlier, like, no one's really asking, like, what's best for the woman, what's best for the wife, what does she want? What's good for her body and her mental health. It's like, what does God want? God wants you to have a lot of babies, and we're supposed to suffer. We're here for suffer, to learn from our trials and to learn from our suffering. So, yeah, that's the best thing, Effy.

Alyssa Alexander [01:53:36] And suffering also builds a lot of status for Mormon Women. And I think for Hannah also, where, you know, she's building a lot of social capital through her social media, the idea of suffering or of no epidural, of no nanny, no childcare, that's building this determination, this willpower, this strength, which is the main way, I think. Yeah. Through this suffering. Being able to not complain through suffering is the main way that women within Mormonism can build.

Celeste Davis [01:54:07] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:54:07] Social capital and status.

John Dehlin [01:54:10] My biggest problem structurally with her birth control plan, which is none, is it assumes that God number one, speaks to people. Well, it assumes that God exists and then it assumes that God speaks in very clear ways to people. When I was a faithful, believing Mormon, I was always trying to get God to tell me what to do and he never responded. So if her plan is, I'm going to wait for God to tell me to stop, well, that's a problem. If it just so happens that God isn't there or doesn't communicate to her in very clear, explicit ways, she's just going to keep going. Right?

Samantha Shelley [01:54:44] Yeah. And I also feel like children become like pawns in this patriarchal scheme, which is like, women need to have more children to like uphold the patriarchy and like boost the church and all that. But it's like none of it is coming from like a child development, informed perspective of like how, you know, having. And I can't like say anything about her parenting or how healthy her kids are, but I imagine it would be extremely hard to provide for eight children's emotional needs and especially when, when every time you have a nine month old baby, you're suddenly pregnant again. Like, from what I hear, it's like pretty rough. Maybe she has easy pregnancies, I don't know, but it's just like, it's so much to be taking on and I find it almost impossible to believe that, that the availability of the parents isn't compromised by that and then the children suffer as a result. Again, we can't like necessarily speak to her specific situation, but doesn't she say

John Dehlin [01:55:40] in the article that she'll spend a week in bed at a time?

Samantha Shelley [01:55:43] Yeah, she gets so exhausted, she'll spend a week in bed.

John Dehlin [01:55:45] A week in bed.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:47] That's a red flag. That's not a rest day. A whole week.

John Dehlin [01:55:50] Yeah, one whole day in bed is a lot.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:52] A whole week in bed, which I

Alyssa Alexander [01:55:54] feel like, you know, so much of Hannah's Instagram and TikTok presence is just beautiful and aesthetic and stunning and like, even as someone who I have absolutely no interest in farming, I'll watch That and like, wow, like, that's amazing. She's. She's so accomplished and so successful and so poised with everything. And so then this comment about her being so exhausted and possibly depressed, we don't know. But to be in bed for a week, like, I felt like a little bit of a, you know, peek behind the curtain of seeing that this woman who is at least telling us that she is extremely satisfied with her life and hopefully that is the case. But to have a person who is extraordinarily busy running this business, farming, mothering eight children, who is then so exhausted they have to spend a week in bed, like, I think that just kind of shows us that this is not attainable for your average Mormon, which I think also makes not just her Persona but Mormon leaders commentary for so long. Birth control aside, just this idea that you need to have more and more kids, no matter how exhausting it is, no matter how much you're suffering, it feels so insidious because the stakes are really high. It's not just have a lot of

Julia [01:57:13] kids, you'll be fine.

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:14] You'll be fine. It'll be fun. It'll be chaotic and cute all the time. And like, you can have them all match. It's not that it can be. Even for this person who is seemingly perfect and who we know is extremely successful and disciplined and has high accolades, it is still too much. And I think that just is hard for the average Mormon woman also.

John Dehlin [01:57:38] Yeah. And be a beauty queen winner. Fifteen days after your most recent pregnancy.

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:44] Twelve.

John Dehlin [01:57:45] Yeah. Twelve days. Yeah. And run a multimillion dollar successful business and look perfect all the time. Right?

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:55] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:57:55] I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say, like, Hannah is setting the standard that's creating a battering ram for other Mormon women. Be like, why can't I be like Hannah? She's so pretty and skinny and hard working and she doesn't rest and she's all these kids and she's a successful business. I think that, like, I do think that she's very aspirational for Mormon women and on all the fronts.

John Dehlin [01:58:17] Yeah. Okay, Julie, if it's all right, let's jump to this slide really quickly.

Julia [01:58:25] Yeah. So she. This is Agnew again, the article. We drive past the dairy cows, looking out across a river valley in the arid mountains below beyond. Was this what she always wanted? I asked when we get the moment alone while Daniel checks on the animals. No, she says. I mean, I was like. She pauses. My goal was New York City. I left home at 17 and I was so excited to get there. I just love that energy. And I was going to be a ballerina. I was a good ballerina. She pauses again But I knew that when I started to have kids, my life would start to look different.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] And what do you want to share about that, Julia?

Julia [01:59:02] I don't know. It just feels like kind of heartbreaking to me where she says, you know, she had these dreams. She wanted to go to New York. She wanted to be a ballerina. She was a good ballerina. And she just had to give it up. You know, she said she wanted to wait a while before she got married. Wait a while.

Alyssa Alexander [01:59:14] I think.

Julia [01:59:14] I think she said she wanted to wait a while before having kids. And then, like, you know, their husband says, no, we're not going to wait. We're going to. We're going to do this thing. And so those dreams were just gone. I just feel heartbroken for her that she didn't get this. That she wanted this thing and wasn't able to get it.

John Dehlin [01:59:29] Yeah. All right, well, let's jump to. I'm going to go ahead and skip that next video. If any of y' all want to check out a really super heinous talk, check out Ezra Taft Benson's to the Mothers in Zion. Is it. Do you think we should play that, Julie? Or is it. Okay. Do you think we've made that point about him basically saying it's evil to work outside the home?

Julia [01:59:51] So this one I thought was interesting. We don't have to play it, but I can just talk about it. So he was saying that it's that God wants women to work in their home. He wants them to iron clothes. He wants them to clean the house. He wants them to do stuff like be the. Like, take care of the house, not just the kids. And what I thought was interesting is because they have. I'm really glad to hear this, but they have a. What did they call it? A cleaner. A person who comes into their house and cleans the house. Like, so she's not doing this all alone. She's. She's taking care of her kids. And of course, she's doing a lot of stuff. She's got a lot on her plate. But I was just a little bit happy, you know, I was just happy that, you know, she's not alone. But I thought it was an interesting thing that Spencer Kimball's saying, you know, God wants you, not a housekeeper, to clean the house. I just thought that was an interesting.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] Yeah.

Julia [02:00:31] Thing.

Did Hannah Freely Choose to Leave Juilliard

John Dehlin [02:00:32] All right, the next part of the article we've referred to this lightly, but it talks about, you know, whether she was going to finish school or not. Julie, do you want to set this up and have someone read it?

Julia [02:00:44] Which slide is this again? Okay. Yeah. So. So I think. I think we kind of set this up already about them. One about them wanting to wait before getting married. Celeste, do you want to read this one?

Samantha Shelley [02:00:58] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [02:00:58] Back then, I thought, we should date for a year before marriage, she continues, so I could finish school and whatever. And Daniel was like, I'm not going to work. We've got to get married now. Oh, it's not going to work. We've got to get married now. After a month, they were engaged. Two months after that, they were married, moving into an apartment Daniel rented on the Upper west side. And three months after that, she was pregnant. The first Juilliard undergraduate to be expecting in modern history.

John Dehlin [02:01:24] What do y' all think about a fiance Saying, that's not gonna work. We're getting married now. Thoughts?

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:31] Well, it didn't work for me.

John Dehlin [02:01:33] Oh.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:35] But it's.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:35] It's like such a common Mormon story. You know, I think that, like most Mormons who would read something like that, it's kind of. It's a very common rhetoric.

John Dehlin [02:01:45] It's shocking when I hear it.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:47] You know, imagine if the genders were reversed. We'd be like, oh, controlling woman. And this is the part that's, like, deeply concerning to me, because, first of all, you know, it's not as simple as him just being like, that's not going to work. It's like, how did he have that power over her? What? How did he have enough power, one month into them dating for her to say, I really want to date for a year before getting married? Which is a super reasonable request. And he's just like, no.

Julia [02:02:12] Like, I'm.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:13] I'm not concerned what you want. Like, what I want needs to fly. Like, what gave him that power? I mean, I guess that's what we've been kind of talking about in this episode, but I'm like, that's the concerning piece. Like, her not fulfilling her dreams of becoming a ballerina. I don't know. A lot of people have dreams as a teenager that they don't follow through on. And it's entirely possible that motherhood was calling to her more than the life of a professional ballet dancer, which is also grueling. Like, being a professional ballet dancer is hard. So it's like, that we can't really know either way. But it's like, this is just. Like, this is concerning like, there's no way to sort of like justify someone saying, I want to wait a year. And then him being like, nope. And then like, okay, she just does what he wants. Why?

Celeste Davis [02:02:55] I think I can remember being in that position and I think the mission thing is really disconcerting. When you're a woman and you're dating someone who's been on a mission, like, the default assumption is like, well, they're closer to God than I am. At least I can remember very distinctly thinking that when I was dating a guy and he was like, like I went to the temple and God said, we're supposed to be married. And I didn't marry him, but I was really, it took me back because I was like, well, he's been on a mission, so he probably has a better communication, a better like, access line to God than I do. Like, he's probably more righteous. So like, maybe that's really something. Maybe I should listen to it and thank goodness I didn't. But like, I can remember being in that, like, deferential position to be like, well, he's probably more righteous than me because he's been on a mission and

John Dehlin [02:03:35] it probably isn't insignificant that he's the heir to a billion dollar fortune. Right. Fair.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:41] Which is the only reason he got a first date with her anyway by trapping her. Yeah, trapped her in a flight.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:49] I also think part of what I would imagine, at least in some of common Mormon relationships, I think part of why people tend to get married so quickly and this is just thinking out loud. I mean, of course the go to answer is always like, you know, they want to have sex. I also think that in Mormon, you know, you grew up your entire life. When Hannah was thinking about being a ballerina, she wasn't married, but that was, I'm sure that was still in the back of her mind constantly because that's what she was taught. If she lived an orthodox, traditional Mormon upbringing, that is still always the get married, get married, get married, get married. That's the best thing you can do. Get married, be a mom, get married, be a mom, get married, be a mom. So it would not be surprising if even though she had these dreams, there was that was still in some way a backup plan because this other influence was so strong. And so as soon as it became an option, I think within Mormon relationships, we haven't really taught how to progress a relationship other than marriage. I think that for so many of us, when we really think that we love somebody, the only way we really know how to articulate that is, by getting married and having kids. We don't really know the nuances of what an adult romantic relationship can look like. It's like, I really love you. I want to spend more time with you. I think that means we should get married. That is just a really common experience that a lot of people have talked with. Like, once you get to a certain point, that's the only way you know how to progress a relationship. And so a month is quite, quite quick. But I do think that, like, it wouldn't be surprising if as soon as one thing that she said in one of the articles was at the end of the summer, she wanted to be a ballerina. At the beginning of the school year, she wanted to. To get married and be a mother. I think, like, when you have a lifetime of that as the ultimate goal, as soon as that becomes available to you in any way, it makes sense that that would become appealing really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:05:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:37] I also found it concerning how the article talked about how he basically just the first time he saw her, he was like, yep, I'm going to marry her. She's the one. Pardon?

Alyssa Alexander [02:05:46] Was that the priesthood?

Julia [02:05:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:47] Maybe he just got instant revelation, which would be cool, but it's like it. And I know some people have like, romantic ideas about love at first sight. And so I don't know, but it just feels like that shows, like, the objectified view of women in Mormonism because it's just like, here's this woman who's completely gorgeous. She will be mine. Not like, oh, I want to find out about her thoughts and feelings and dreams and personality. It's just like, all it took was seeing her. And he was like, yep, she'll be mine. I'll figure out a way. She's saying no to him for six months. He's like, I'm going to put myself on the flight next to her.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [02:06:20] Yeah, love it. For those who. For those who think that, well, this is just Joseph Fielding Smith and Ezra Tuft Benson and Spence W. Kimball, old prophets. Let's play a quick clip of a modern, very senior apostle. He's the acting president of the quorum of the 12. He's second or third in line to become prophet. Much beloved Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. And what he's about to say is stuff he taught when he was president of BYU while I was there. We in the presiding councils of the Church hear far too often, and perhaps you do as well, that many of our youth and young adults are terrified to get married. In extreme cases, they are fearful that the world is about to end in blood and disaster. Something they don't want to take a spouse or a child.

Video Clip 2 [02:07:11] Child into.

Video Clip 2 [02:07:13] In less severe, more common cases, they are fearful that the world will just get more difficult, that jobs will be too hard to find, that one should be out of school, out of debt, have a career and own a home before considering marriage. Good grief. On that formula, Sister Holland and I still wouldn't be married. Seriously. When we got married, we were both still undergraduates at byu, Neither set of parents able to help us at all financially. No way to imagine all the graduate education we still had yet ahead of us. And this with $300 between us on our wedding day. Now, that may not be the ideal way to start a marriage, but what a marriage it's been and what we would have missed. Yeah. So still. Still the message. Maybe just in little more subtle ways. I don't know.

Julia [02:08:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:13] Yeah. Okay, let's go back to the article, Julia.

Julia [02:08:17] Yeah. So. So it talks about Daniel getting a job as the director of his father's security company and things like that, and how they move from to Brazil and things like that. But I wanted to focus on this other part where she says, our first few years of marriage were really hard. We sacrificed a lot. She says, but we did have this vision, this dream. And Daniel interrupts, we still do. What kind of sacrifices or what kind of sacrifices? I ask her. Well, I gave up dance, which was hard. You gave a piece of your. You give up a piece of yourself. And Daniel gave up his career ambitions.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:48] Don't really feel like he gave up his career ambitions. He had just had an ambition. He wanted more than the business thing because it seems like he always wanted to do the farm thing.

Celeste Davis [02:08:57] He still got the career he wanted.

John Dehlin [02:09:00] Yeah. I'm wondering, how did he give up his career ambitions? He wanted to be a security guy for his dad. What was that?

Samantha Shelley [02:09:06] What part of himself did he sacrifice?

John Dehlin [02:09:08] Yeah. I don't know.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:09] Seems like he's living his dream.

Alyssa Alexander [02:09:11] It's also interesting. Creative nonfiction writing 101 is when you're writing a first person narrative and then you jump to second person. That's usually when you're saying something really vulnerable and you're trying to distance yourself from that. So you say you. And if you're in a writing workshop, they'll always switch back to I. They'll say, oh, look, you're trying to avoid something here. Let's switch it back to I. And I notice that's what Hannah does here when she's actually saying for a quick moment, probably the most heartfelt, vulnerable thing that she says throughout this article is, I gave up dance. Okay? That's the seemingly surface level or career equivalent to Daniel's career ambitions. And then she said, you clearly referring to herself, you give up a piece of yourself, and there's even a little bit of shame or hiding away from the vulnerability and being able to admit to this reporter, like, yeah, I gave up a little bit of myself. And I think the way that she says that and just the sentence itself is just truly, truly heartbreaking and one of the hardest moments in the article.

John Dehlin [02:10:14] Beautiful. Thank you for sharing. All right, Julia, let's. Let's grab this next quote. Go for it.

Julia [02:10:22] Yes. This is Agnew's perspective. She says, I look out at the vastness and don't totally agree. Daniel wanted to agree with him. Having sacrificed much. Daniel wanted to live in the great Western wilds, so they did. He wanted to farm, so they do. He likes date nights once a week, so they go. They have a babysitter on those evenings. He didn't want nannies in the house, so there aren't any. The only space earmarked by Neilman's to be Nealman's own, a small barn she wanted to convert into a ballet studio, ended up becoming the kids schoolroom.

John Dehlin [02:10:53] What do you want to say about that, Julia?

Julia [02:10:55] This was just really heartbreaking for me. This sentence, this how Agnew writes so well. But she, you know, Neilman had to give up so much because he's getting his dream. And this is. This is my perspective, is that he's getting his dreams fulfilled. And then she's. Her dreams are just getting pushed and pushed and pushed to, like, oh, you can have this extra space. And then, like, nope, it's changed into the kids schoolroom. It's just shrinking. Her.

Alyssa Alexander [02:11:18] Her.

Julia [02:11:19] Her dreams are just shrinking.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:21] And when he met her and apparently fell in love with her just on site, she was a dancer. Like, that's who she was at that time. That was like, her identity. And it just sounds to me like he sees her and he's like, she'd be great in this role. I need her to fulfill in my fantasy. And then to. To be a spouse of. So, like, dance clearly meant a lot to her and clearly still does. Even if it was like, you know, she was happy to give it up because the dream of motherhood was superior. I can't imagine having the means to give her the ability to, like, still, like, you know, enjoy the part of her that is a dancer by, like, you know, Giving her a ballet studio and then not doing it. Like, I feel like it's showing that he potentially doesn't, like, care or understand, like, how meaningful dance was to her because he's maybe in like, typical patriarchal fashion, always kind of looked at her through the lens of, like, what can she fulfill? For me, which is the thing about patriarch is it centers the desires and experiences and thoughts and feelings of men over women. And women do that in patriarchy, too. They center men constantly in their own experience, whether or not they even know they're doing it or whether or not they feel happy to do it.

Alyssa Alexander [02:12:34] This line, it almost feels like a cliche with how just terrible it is that there's only one space that she would be able to have for herself. Like, it kind of is a callback to Virginia Woolf's classic essay, A Room of One's Own. That having your own space, literally, especially with eight children, having a 10 person household, she doesn't have a single room or any sort of space to have by herself. And like, that, I think is just. I mean, it's. The essay itself has, like, withstood so much time because that is just such a meaningful concept for women.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:09] And anyway, I'm loving these literary points you keep making. Like, damn, that's good, Celeste.

Celeste Davis [02:13:18] Yeah. I mean, echoing all of that, I just keep thinking, like, it's sad to me, like, in the. And maybe we'll probably get to this, but she's since come out and been from all of the backlash, I think, like, kind of like exactly what we're saying. Like, oh, this is sad. Your dreams were subsumed by a man's. And she's like, no, no, these are my dreams. These are my dreams. This is my life. I'm so happy. This is exactly what I want to be doing. This is exactly my dream. This is my perfect life. I'm so happy. And it's like, does she have a. A choice to even really like, evaluate very deeply for herself? Because it doesn't really fall into the Mormon script to really be asking yourself very often, what are my dreams? Your dreams are handed to you, right? And they are the patriarchy's dreams, and they are to become a wife and mother and to fulfill your husband's dreams. And that's not in the script to be like, well, what if I want something very different? Or am I fulfilled? Or am I really. You're just kind of like, yeah, I am. And this is what I want. And this is what it is. Which is why, I don't know I kind of think, like, this discussion is really valuable from ex Mormon women. Specifically, in this global conversation that the world is kind of having right now of, is this woman happy? Is she acting of her own volition? Is she oppressed to kind of be like, we don't know. We don't know her, but we do know this system, and this system has so many blockades to even get a woman to ask herself these questions. Right. It's just not in the script. And so it's really, really sad to read these things. You know, as an ex Mormon woman, I see so much of my own experience in her, and even in the denial of, like, this is exactly what I want. It's exactly what I would have said 10 years ago, a million percent. And now I see it so differently. It's hard to read.

John Dehlin [02:14:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:58] And they were obviously wanting the article to present their life really positively. So it's interesting how much is un. Unknowingly coming out. Like, we're just getting, like, the ver. We're just skimming the surface. You know, the stuff that can't help but come out without them even. Even realizing it.

The Birthday Trip Incident and Marital Dynamics

John Dehlin [02:15:15] Julia, let's talk about the birthday present. The famous birthday present.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:18] Oh, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:15:21] The egg apron has made all the. All the news. Go ahead, Julia.

Julia [02:15:26] Right, so on her birthday, they post a video of Daniel giving Hannah a gift, and it was posted on July 5th. I don't know if that's her birthday, but so far the video has over 55 million views. This is way more than all of their followers combined. Mind.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] Okay, and so that. That's the.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:43] Are we gonna watch the whole thing?

Julia [02:15:45] If you don't mind?

Samantha Shelley [02:15:46] Yes, yes, we need to.

Alyssa Alexander [02:15:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:15:48] All right. So this is Hannah opening up her birthday present.

Julia [02:15:52] Right.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] On her most recent birthday. All right, here we go.

Alyssa Alexander [02:15:55] Wrapped beautifully.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] All right.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:56] Yeah. The care that went into the wrapping alone. It's my birthday present from Daniel.

Julia [02:16:03] Tickets to Greece.

John Dehlin [02:16:04] Where's it from? Okay, wait, so she. What did she mean by tickets to Greece?

Samantha Shelley [02:16:08] She wanted tickets. She'd apparently made it known numerous times. She really wanted tickets to Greece for her birthday.

John Dehlin [02:16:13] Okay, all right. Okay. So she's hoping for tickets to Greece. Let's see what she gets.

Julia [02:16:18] My ticket off.

Alyssa Alexander [02:16:19] It's from Ukraine,

Celeste Davis [02:16:24] so plane tickets,

Alyssa Alexander [02:16:35] A

Samantha Shelley [02:16:35] hat I can wear in Greece.

John Dehlin [02:16:37] Oh, my God. I haven't seen.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:42] Oh, my.

John Dehlin [02:16:43] A game.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:48] Great.

John Dehlin [02:16:49] Now you can gather eggs.

Celeste Davis [02:16:50] Oh, my gosh, a cute one.

Julia [02:16:53] That's the best you can do chores.

John Dehlin [02:16:56] So she's dancing now in her egg apron.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:59] Keep listening. Wait, we Missed the bit where he said, you're welcome.

Julia [02:17:05] Oh, you're right. I don't understand.

John Dehlin [02:17:06] Okay, so what happened?

Samantha Shelley [02:17:07] Samantha, in the video, you can tell that in that video, she's, like, trying her best to, you know, to be grateful. She's doing a little jig. Yeah. She even gave him a little jig out of this video, even though it wasn't tickets to Reese. But then he says at the end of the video, you're welcome, because he's, like, feeling like she's not being appreciative enough.

Alyssa Alexander [02:17:26] And that's the tone for sure. Right?

Julia [02:17:28] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:28] And she just immediately is like, thank you. And then they put that on the Internet.

Julia [02:17:34] Like, if there was a video of

Samantha Shelley [02:17:35] my boyfriend giving me a gift, and then he's like, you're welcome.

Alyssa Alexander [02:17:38] I would never upload that.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:40] But again, it's just the waters they swim in. It's so normal to them.

Alyssa Alexander [02:17:43] But, like, our friends will love this.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:47] And also, it just has the energy of, like, you know, men giving women cleaning supplies for their birthday or something. It's like, here's something you can do your time tasks in. And he was like, I've been holding on to it for ages. And it's like, if. If she needs it, she probably needed it ages ago when you first got it.

John Dehlin [02:18:03] For those who don't know what's an egg apron?

Samantha Shelley [02:18:05] I didn't know to gather eggs in the yard or for wherever they're chickens. She can collect eggs, basically, so she can perform labor more productively.

John Dehlin [02:18:14] She's. I mean, she probably asked for an egg apron. True.

Alyssa Alexander [02:18:17] And she probably did say my egg,

Samantha Shelley [02:18:20] which suggests she had some knowledge of it in advance.

Alyssa Alexander [02:18:22] She's, like, picked it out. Maybe she even already ordered it. I don't know. Maybe she just picked it out.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:26] Why wasn't it with the tickets to Son of a Millionaire?

Alyssa Alexander [02:18:29] Like, with access to an airline.

John Dehlin [02:18:32] Yes, Celeste, let's get you in. Celeste, you're laughing back there.

Julia [02:18:37] Oh, I just.

Celeste Davis [02:18:38] I. Exactly. When Sam said, like, it just shows. It's like, so the water stays swimming. Because, like, speaking of media training, like, most people probably wouldn't put this up because it's kind of embarrassing to her especially. I'm sure they regret it now that it's blown up because they posted that video book before the article came out. And so everybody's referencing it now constantly. But I think she's probably just, like, looks at, like, her desire to go to Greece just like this little thing. Just like a little whatever. Oh, silly things that mom wants, you know, and like, just posted it, like, oh, that's a silly little thing. And the world is like, no, you

Samantha Shelley [02:19:09] should get to go to Greece.

Celeste Davis [02:19:11] It's like everybody. Every comment on her TikTok now is

Julia [02:19:14] like, send her to Greece. Send her to Greece.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:15] This is why a woman shouldn't be outside the home, because people might tell her she deserves to go to Greece.

Alyssa Alexander [02:19:20] There you go.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:21] Also, you could tell that the Greece thing is something she's brought up a lot because even when he's like, it's from the Ukraine, she's like, so tickets to Greece. The hat I can wear in Greece. Like, she's so expecting it to be tickets to Greece. It's not just like a thing she said once in that moment. It's like she's clearly made that desire known.

John Dehlin [02:19:38] I'm not sure I would have uploaded that video. But then once it's like 60 million, you can't check it out. Yeah, that's too much. Too many people have seen it. It. It's a big spectacle if you take it down. But that's a lot of money. You make a lot of money when a video is viewed 64 million times or whatever, right?

Samantha Shelley [02:19:53] Yeah. Enough money to go to Greece.

Julia [02:19:59] Well, I just want to point out too that, like, I think a lot of people have. Have noticed or made comments on the fact that she herself doesn't feel like she can buy tickets or like he's in charge of the money and like, they have enough money, they have enough funding. His dad owns the airline or whatever. Like, I think, I think it said they're billionaires, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, like. Like they have all the reason to go to Greece. Like, they can, they can get a babysitters or whatever. Like, like she's just not in charge of any of that. He's in charge of it.

Celeste Davis [02:20:25] Yeah, well, her labor too would be sorely missed if they aren't allowing. They would have to hire a cook to not cook. They have. The standards are so high and they're very, very dependent on Hannah Cook, home cooking and homeschooling. And all of their standards would have. Have to be really limited if they were gonna leave the kids.

Alyssa Alexander [02:20:45] But whatever they do during the weeks that she's did some. Someone may have said this earlier. Whatever they do during the weeks that she's exhausted and in bed for an entire week, just do more of that. The rest of the time, whoever comes in to help bring them more often.

John Dehlin [02:20:59] But that's part of the thing is they're saying no birth, you know, no birth control, no anesthesia, you know, no epidurals, no nannies, no packaged goods. Like, that's the whole thing is they're doing this on their own, right? With. With the help of heavenly folks with 43 employees.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:16] But maybe there's something about being the son of a billionaire that really makes you want to lap out the idea that you're just fully doing it on your own, because it's maybe a complex you have just speculating wildly.

Celeste Davis [02:21:26] Well, I think that that is really why he said the quote that Hannah is in bed for a week at a time out of exhaustion. Because I do think that before this article, there may be main pushback online was that they had hidden help and that they're presenting this front of, like, look, we do all of this and all of this. Life is accessible to you, too. You can cook and clean, but behind the scenes, they had nannies and house cleaners and all of this huge staff. And so I think they were going into this article wanting to clear their name. I'm sure they very much regret that now because they didn't know the direction that the journalists would take it. But I do think that's why he was like, no, we don't have any help. She's even in bed for a week out of exhaustion because she's doing it.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:03] He was more scared of people thinking that they have help than that his wife is, like, fundamentally unwell because of this lifestyle he's imposed on her.

Julia [02:22:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:22:14] All right. All right, Julia, what do we got on this next slide?

Julia [02:22:20] This is just an interesting take for Daniel's perspective with Megan Agnew. She said, Daniel wants to take me to see the new dairy farm buildings, while Neilman goes back into the house to make lunch for the kiddos. We stop at an irrigation ditch, which he explains. The offices, which he explains. The milking stations, which he explains. I check my watch, feeling edgy. I want to talk to Neilman.

John Dehlin [02:22:40] Meaning Hannah, right?

Julia [02:22:41] Yeah, meaning Hannah.

John Dehlin [02:22:42] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:22:43] Right.

Julia [02:22:43] Just one more stop, he says. Neilman calls him. Okay. He says to her, we're just heading your way. He adds, driving in the opposite direction, out into the fields to show me another ditch.

John Dehlin [02:22:52] And what's your point, Julia?

Julia [02:22:54] Just that, like, he's like the.

Alyssa Alexander [02:22:57] The.

Julia [02:22:58] The journalist is there for Hannah, not him. Hannah's the face. Hannah's the one that everyone wants to know about, and he's just, like, making it about him. And he's, like, explaining all these things to her because she needs to know, but she's not interested. She and Even Hannah calls and says, you know, she's here to see me. I don't know what. I don't know what she's saying on the other side, but I'm imagining it's something like that. And then he. Like, we're. We're heading your direction, but we're not. I don't know. It's just. It just made me feel really uncomfortable, that part.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:22] And it's times like that where a ready mill would really come in clutch. Like, surely for a special occ from England is here for four hours. She doesn't have to be making lunch.

Alyssa Alexander [02:23:31] Or he could make lunch.

John Dehlin [02:23:32] Or.

Julia [02:23:32] Crazy idea.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:33] He can make lunch.

Alyssa Alexander [02:23:35] He does. He does come across really delightful in.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:38] Does he in this scene. Oh, I thought you meant elsewhere.

Alyssa Alexander [02:23:41] Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:23:43] He's just excited about his farm and wants to show her the farm.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:47] Yeah. Which shows that they're kind of seeing it like.

Julia [02:23:50] Well, they.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:50] They. Obviously it's a prp. It's PR for them either way. But the way that, like, Daniel is centering all that stuff, which is not. Not like, what the reporter is interested in. And then throughout the interview, the fact that Hannah's looking to Daniel, like, how do we feel about this? What would you say about this? It's like, almost feels like it's more PR for Daniel or that just Daniel is the one in charge of their pr.

John Dehlin [02:24:10] I bet sales are up at the Nealman farm at Ballerina Farms, right?

Samantha Shelley [02:24:14] Yeah. Raw milk through the roof.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] Yeah. All right, so here's the quote where Nealman sometimes gets so ill from exhaustion that she can't get out of bed for a week. I think we kind of have covered that. Some people are just wondering if she's okay and how sustainable this all is, but I guess time will tell. What's. What's this clip? Julia?

Julia [02:24:39] It's just him.

Alyssa Alexander [02:24:40] God.

Julia [02:24:40] It's just the message that God didn't want them to have housekeepers because it says that they had a cleaner. We can just go over. We can just skip that one.

John Dehlin [02:24:47] This could be. Let's play it because I'm intrigued to see it. Is that okay?

Celeste Davis [02:24:52] Sure.

Julia [02:24:53] Yeah.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [02:24:53] Do you mind? Okay. Heaven would rather have you comfort the scratched arm of a little boy in patched trousers than have a babysitter or older sister or brother do the same.

Video Clip 3 [02:25:05] Because you're away working.

Video Clip 3 [02:25:07] He would rather have you read stories in the afternoon to a little girl in a faded blue hand me down dress than have her entertained by a colored tv. Because you're away working to make the payments. He would rather have a child come home from school to a mother ironing clothes or baking cookies than to come home to a hired housekeeper because mother was away learning typing or shorthand to improve her job qualifications. Well, typing. Your shorthand.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:39] Shorthand.

John Dehlin [02:25:40] How's your shorthand?

Celeste Davis [02:25:41] Selfish. Selfish mother.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:43] That's actually funny because my British grandmother, like, escaped being just a wife and mother in a bad situation in a home to become a shorthand teacher. Like, that was, like the out for women back in the day. Shorthand.

John Dehlin [02:25:55] How do y' all know that's what you get? Typing or shorthand? Which do you want? Elizabeth?

Alyssa Alexander [02:25:59] Those are your things. You know, I think I'm gonna stick with typing.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Okay, You.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:03] My typing speed's in the hundredth percentile,

John Dehlin [02:26:05] so help us out.

Alyssa Alexander [02:26:07] You don't have time for children.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:08] I have no time. I'm constantly typing.

John Dehlin [02:26:10] So I guess that puts you in shorthand, Celeste. Is that right?

Celeste Davis [02:26:13] Okay, fair enough.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:14] Slay.

John Dehlin [02:26:19] All right, next clip. Julia.

Julia [02:26:22] Oh, so these next ones. These ones are just talking about how she did get an epidural for her last one with. With her daughter who was. Or I think for her last two kids. And she's. She kind of liked it. So. So I just thought this was interesting because she, like, it says she lowers her voice. Daniel is currently out of the room taking a phone call. So I got an epidural. She's explaining, and it was an amazing experience. And so, like, she. The fact that she's, like, kind of whispering this to. Or lowering her voice and telling her this is, like. Makes me feel like maybe he wasn't. Didn't want her to have an epidural and, like, wanted her to have all natural. And it's just.

Alyssa Alexander [02:26:53] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] Yeah, it's like she's keeping the secret. It's like, shh. Now Daniel's not in the room. I actually tried an epidural, but he doesn't know, so don't tell him. That does imply that he's imposing upon her, having a super painful childbirth. Am I wrong?

Alyssa Alexander [02:27:09] Yeah. I mean, I feel like your husband trying to stop your access to healthcare is not cute.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:17] And maybe it's just that she knows him well enough to know that he'd be kind of judgmental of her saying that it was kind of great getting an epidural because it's not in line with the lifestyle, But I'm like, well, that's messed up.

John Dehlin [02:27:29] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:27:30] And choosing natural. There's nothing wrong with choosing to not have an epidural. Yeah, it's just the way that it's framed that makes it so uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [02:27:37] No, it really does give the impression that it's his choice and she's either sneaking around, disobeying him, or conforming. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:47] And that it's like this, like, juicy confession that it was great.

John Dehlin [02:27:52] Yeah. Yeah. That was dark. Okay, Julia, this next clip, we talked

Julia [02:27:58] about this before, but we're talking about kids having how she makes it a matter of prayer. And he says, well, for whatever reason, it's exactly nine months after a baby, that she's ready for the next one. And she says, again, it's definitely a matter of prayer. And he says it's a matter of prayer, but somehow it's exactly nine months.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] Well, Heavenly Father's consistent. True.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:18] All right. More Ezra Tab Benson.

Julia [02:28:21] We don't have to watch this one. He's just saying, you know, more of the same. Don't stop yourself from having kids.

John Dehlin [02:28:27] Okay. All right. And so. So now you've got an article from the Deseret News, which I think is important.

Julia [02:28:34] Yeah. So this is an article from the Desert News. This is published July 15th, and it's called A World. A World.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] So 2024, right? 2024. Okay.

Julia [02:28:42] Yeah. So just very recently, a world fertility crisis spells trouble. And so in this, if you go to the next slide, they crunch some numbers. I didn't want to share the whole thing, but they're saying that the birth rates are at a decline, and they predict that. It says, In 2019, these two scientists or doctors published an article, the Empty Planet, the Shock of the Global Population Decline, where they predicted that the world's human population would crest below 9 billion and then begin falling sharply as soon as 20, 2060 or 2050 hit. And then they said, but now it's probably looking more like in the 2000 and 40s. He says, this is just over the horizon. It's not like a century away. It's about to happen. I mean, the entire global baby boom is going to be 65 in 2030.

John Dehlin [02:29:27] So this is Deseret News, the Mormon Church's own newspaper, right, Julia?

Julia [02:29:32] Right. Yes. And they're just. They're stressing. They don't really give any direction for it or any instruction, but they're just saying, you know, the. The whole world, they're just not having as many kids as before. And then this is reflected. I have a clip, but we don't have to share it. This is reflected in last year, President Oaks and his wife gave a fireside to the young adults. And I Think it was May or March where he brings up these stats. He says Mormon couples are getting married at a really young. At a really old age. They're like 26, 25, and they're not having kids or they're not having as much kids. So the church is really. Seems to be really stressed about this, the fact that. That people aren't having kids. And so you look at people like Hannah who are having kids or these other. These friends of ours, or Celeste, you talked about your friends who are having more kids. They. They're like wanting these. This to be the normal rather than what is the actual normal where people are not having children.

John Dehlin [02:30:21] I mean, this is. To me, this is giving Elon Musk vibes. Like, isn't Elon Musk have like, nine kids? And somehow he's really worried about the fate of civilization. It's also evangelical Christian vibes or. Or fundamentalist Christian vibes or Christian nationalist vibes. But it's basically this idea that. Look at Western Europe. Western Europe is a shithole. They stopped having a lot of kids. They're secular now. And so now their aging populations aren't getting support for retirement. And so all those governments are bankrupt, and now they're having to import immigrants. Immigrants to take all the jobs because there aren't enough children or young people to take the jobs. And now those countries are getting overrun by dark Muslim people. And that's sort of a hellscape for the world. And the hellscape that is Western Europe, where Samantha's from, is soon gonna come to the United States. Is that what we're giving here? Are those the vibes that are being communicated, or did I get that wrong?

Samantha Shelley [02:31:20] Lots to unpack. I do feel like probably a billionaire's incentive for wanting to keep the global population high as we plunge further and to climate crisis versus, like, these religions that want to keep their numbers up. Like, they have different reasons, you know, for wanting to keep the global population up. But it's just interesting to me that there's entire species going extinct constantly. Like, ecological destruction is happening, and then we're like, oh, we're going to crest below 9 billion humans. Heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [02:31:52] Celeste, Alyssa, Julia, any other comments?

Celeste Davis [02:31:55] No, Celeste, I think it's not rocket science to figure out why the Mormon Church is worried about this. Because they're shrinking and missionary work is hard, so it would be much easier to beef up their numbers. If we could just get the women to have nine kids each, that'd be great.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:06] Yeah, that's like their primary strategy. That's the only way they can, like, keep going at this point or keep their numbers up.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] No, that's actually true. Like in the United States, if it weren't for the birth rate of active Mormons being three on average, the Church would officially be in decline in the United States. That's just a fact. The Mormon Church, if it weren't for birth rate, would literally be in decline. So I can see why Oaks and Holland and all the modern leaders are saying, have more babies, have more babies.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:37] It's not decline anyway. What is it not declining anyway or is it.

John Dehlin [02:32:40] What? No, I think it's less than 1%. But technically the Mormon. Active Mormon Church population in the United States is still somewhere between 0% and 1%. But it's certainly not the stone cut out of the mount without hands rolling forth to consume all nations that I was taught the Church was going to be. Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:01] Consume all nations.

John Dehlin [02:33:04] Yeah. So I can see it's in the Church's interest to get their members having babies. Plus, the Church has done studies. If they can get you married young on a mission, married young, having babies super soon, you're more, guess what, you're more likely to stay active in the church for the rest of your life. And you're going to do what? Pay a lot more tithing? Am I wrong? The church knows that statistically.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:27] So just like how they know if you get married right after you get home from a mission, you're like, way less likely to leave the church.

John Dehlin [02:33:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I guess it. Can you fault the church for telling its members to do what's best for the church?

Julia [02:33:40] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:40] But once again, children as pawns in just like upholding this scheme, like, doesn't matter what the child's experience is. Doesn't matter if the parents are in debt, like, you know, poverty being like one of the, like an adverse child experience that has like a negative impact to list just one, you know, or

Alyssa Alexander [02:33:59] if each individual parent is not actually able to care for the emotional or financial needs of eight children. That doesn't seem to be a discussion whatsoever.

John Dehlin [02:34:08] Yeah. All right, we're rounding out the end here, but we've got a couple more topics. Julia.

Daniel Interrupting Hannah in the Interview

Julia [02:34:17] Yeah, so this is Megan Agnew or Agnew again, where she says, I can't, it seems, get an answer out of Neilman without her being corrected, interrupted, or answered by either her husband or a child. Usually I am doing battle with steely Hollywood publicist publicists. Today I am up against an army of toddlers who all want their mum and A husband who thinks he knows better.

John Dehlin [02:34:37] Now, do you think she's being fair there? That's kind of a strong attack on the husband. Right. I think that the Nealman's felt pretty offended by this part of the article.

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:49] I mean, my just initial reaction I think is that's part of just what profile journalism is, is you're taking an angle and it isn't supposed to, supposed to be a flattering angle because it's not like it's their pr. It doesn't have to be a negative angle or a flattering angle. Like, I think just the concept that there is a perspective seems to really offend them. I don't. It doesn't feel over overwrought to me. I mean it feels like it's obviously direct, but. But I guess that's just kind of in comment to people saying that like, oh, this, this journal, all media is bad and this journalist out to get them. Like, I think that's just kind of like what the job of a journalist writing a profile is.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:27] Yeah. And it's not bad journalism to not uphold the narrative that Hannah and Daniel wish would be upheld. Like, she's not, she didn't do a bad job. It's not nefarious that she simply didn't see it the way that they hoped she would see it or wanted her to see it.

Julia [02:35:42] And just as a reminder, she brought a recorder and she recorded these things so she knows exactly when he's interrupting and what he's saying and what she's saying thing. And so like, she's not wrong. She's being honest. Although, you know, it's not there. It's not the narrative that they want her to tell. But, you know, she's being honest.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:58] And if anything, I feel like Hannah's reaction almost shows how entrenched patriarchy is in all of this because like, it's, it's so normal to them that they're like offended by this assessment that like Daniel constantly talks over Hannah. I don't see why the writer would have like a reason to say that unless it was, was what she genuinely perceived. But it's like these patriarchal norms that are often subtle but like play in, play out in these like large ways as well. Like again, they're the waters Hannah and Daniel swimming. So the only reason anyone would be saying that or criticizing them is because they have something nefarious, like the sum nefarious intention. But yeah, probably not.

John Dehlin [02:36:42] Yeah, I mean, I. People tell me all the time on Mormon stories that I interrupt. Do Mormon men Interrupt women a lot. You think that's fair, Alyssa?

Samantha Shelley [02:36:49] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:36:51] What the. That was a little too strong.

Alyssa Alexander [02:36:54] You're like.

Julia [02:36:55] You seem a little bit too bad.

Alyssa Alexander [02:36:56] You answered too quickly.

John Dehlin [02:36:59] Celeste, what's your vote?

Celeste Davis [02:37:01] Yes. A million times, yes.

John Dehlin [02:37:03] Oh, man. Ouch. Ouch.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:06] It's me. I'm Mormon. Men. Like, I interrupt you more than you interrupt me.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] Thanks. You're kind. Julia, your vote.

Julia [02:37:14] Oh, I don't know. Like, I guess. I know I was interrupted a lot by more the Mormon men that I was around, but I. I don't know if that's indicative. Indicative of everyone.

John Dehlin [02:37:25] So if. If it's true, Daniel comes by it honestly, I guess. Right. I mean, it's how it would have been modeled. All right, so we're coming to the end here. There's a. There's a. A segment where Daniel puts all the kids in the garage. Anything you want to say about that, Julia?

Julia [02:37:39] All of her dresses. Yeah, sorry. So she.

Alyssa Alexander [02:37:41] The kids are safe.

Julia [02:37:42] The kids are safe. They're not in the garage.

John Dehlin [02:37:44] Okay.

Julia [02:37:45] Yeah. So this is just this part, like, it just broke my heart, too, where she says, you know, she does this Miss America to help break things up, you know, to have something else in her life. And now all the sequin gowns, she's asking where they are, and they're like, well, they were in the cupboard. And then, you know, you know, Daniel, Henry, Charles, George, everyone kind of pushed her out of the.

Alyssa Alexander [02:38:01] The.

Julia [02:38:01] They. All their stuff pushed her. Her stuff out of the cupboard. And so it says. She ends the article by saying, so Daniel put them in the garage. And it's just like her. The space that is given for Hannah is just so small. Like, she's trying to have space, and then it's just being taken away from her. And that was just very. Just that. That last sentence was really impactful.

John Dehlin [02:38:22] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:24] And how she says that she. Sorry, she. She did the pageantry to, like, break things up. So it's interesting that she feels the need to break things up, given that other quote we read that motherhood is the single most exciting thing a woman could do. But it's like, even the ways she's able to break things up, which is like, her content creation or pageantry is still just a different flavor of performing femininity in the way it's supposed to be performed under patriarchy. Even her creative outlets are so patriarchal. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm not. Not, like, passing judgment necessarily on pageantry or. Or even content creation, but just feels noteworthy.

John Dehlin [02:39:01] Got it. All right, so let's talk quickly about the aftermath of the article. Did you want to talk about that, Julia?

Julia [02:39:09] Yeah, I just wanted to mention a couple things. So this same author posted again, this article is much shorter. It's just like kind of a summary and there are some additional quotes in there, as you mentioned, self. But it's. But the title of it is My Day with a Trad Wife Queen and what It Taught Me. And then it's just a summary. But there's, there's one. If you'll skip to the next one. There's. There's one. I think this is like a topic of conversation and I'll just read it because I kind of disagree with her, but I'll see what you guys think. She says. I think this is the reason she inspires such strong opinions. The trad life makes women feel threatened by one another's choices. It is as if one lifestyle is going to inhibit the other that our freedom, however we interpret freedom, is being undermined by the existence of someone else's. Women who work in a paid job feel terrified that by promoting the seeming peace and harmony of a traditional home life, Nealman is threatening their ability to choose otherwise. They fear they are going to experience guilt or resistance if other women do choose otherwise. Women who look after their children full time feel judged or patronized for doing so by the women who haven't their choices seeming threatened, too. And so out of fear comes anger, like a bloke punching a wall when his wife leaves him. And so. Oh, yeah. So I just wanted to say, like, so. Well, I know that some of you guys disagree. Do you guys agree with her, her take on this? I don't know what your thoughts are.

John Dehlin [02:40:33] So, Alyssa, sour grapes? Are you just, Are you just sour grapes? Is that it?

Alyssa Alexander [02:40:36] Yeah, I'm just mad, constantly throwing. I mean, I do think that it is in some ways reductive. And it is kind of like upholding that idea of pitting women against women, that one woman's success is somehow threatening to another woman. I think that's like a patriarchal standard and stereotype. And at the same time, like, I do think, unfortunately, the way that, like, women are politicized, there is a way that at least the way that people view women and like we've said before about kind of keeping them very binary, that it can be difficult for men, I guess, Mormon men especially, to be able to respect women making different choices. Yeah. So it is complicated.

John Dehlin [02:41:22] Celeste, how about you? Are you threatened, terrified, and experiencing guilt over this article?

Celeste Davis [02:41:29] That part It's a little annoying to me that she's painting it out to be like this even thing of like, oh, yeah, stay at home moms are, you know, attacked and bothered and working women are attacked and bothered. And it's this. It's like, no, for centuries women have been put in this teensy, tiny little box. That's very much. There's like, currently, politically, we're still trying to be put back in that. With the taking away of abortion and with the birth control national debate, it's like we. I feel like we have good reason to get a little uppity when we see this stuff online. It feels like we're trying to like, go back in your 1950s box. Women, where I feel like the reverse isn't quite so true. Like there's not legislation that like, you must work women or like we're like, I don't know. I feel like the attack isn't quite so equal in terms of taking away women's right to choose one way or the other. I feel like we have pretty good reason to feel a little threatened or a little nervous when this kind of messaging that like, like, women should be happy in their cage. Women were meant to be in their cage. This is the right way to live. This is God's way that he wants you to live. I feel like there's good reason why we get a little nervous about that messaging because it's been a very real threat in the past. It's a very real threat currently to women's equality.

Evaluating the Article and Hannah's Public Response

Samantha Shelley [02:42:49] Sammy, I thought the author was dead on with that whole segment. I think she's a British journalist, so in her. In Britain, like that, that seems her. What she's writing about there feels like very true to the way the discourse is at the point it's at in England, which is like a lot of women, like, probably for economic reasons and because it's just not as much of a cultural norm to be a stay at home mum. Like, they aren't stay at home mums and they maybe feel a little bit of guilt about that or like sometimes. And that for the average English woman looking at Ballerina Farm, their ins. Their instant reaction is just going to be like, that's totally unrealistic. Like it's not realistic for a woman to be able to do that. Like that's gonna be all the English women I know that's going to be like their instant reaction to Ballerina Farm. So she's not writing through the lens. Like, she's not talking about people like us. I feel when she's writing that, she's talking about kind of just like on a mass scale, just the fact that like humans and especially women who have been conditioned to like, you know, be in certain boxes and to view each other as competition. And like, that's all been present in most of our upbringing. Like, we humans tend to resent people who don't or can't follow the like, frameworks or blueprints for life that we ourselves feel like we must follow. So like, for the average British woman looking at Ballerina Farm, they're like, I could never afford to do that. It would never be possible for me to do that. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I feel like, again, it's, I don't feel like that is like the author claiming that like this discussion we're having here just simply comes from, like, she's not talking about us when she's saying that Hannah inspires this kind of, you know, like, fear response. She's talking about the women that maybe feel a bit guilty that they're not stay at home mums. Because, like, that's more normal in England than. Whereas here you guys have all got the messaging that you absolutely should be a stay at home mum, but in England, and it's almost more looked down upon to be a stay at home mum than it is to be a working mom. So I think that's maybe like the context difference that we had. Because when I read that, I was just like, yeah, like, that's true. She's talking about projection. That happens constantly when, you know, we encounter women. Like that.

John Dehlin [02:44:59] Got it. Did you want anything, Julia?

Julia [02:45:02] Oh, like, well, for my thoughts, when I read that, I was thinking, like, when I read her, when I read that whole article I wore, I just worried about Hannah. Like, like, I know that she. We have a video, her video that she came out with where she, she responds to this article.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:17] And.

Julia [02:45:17] But I, but you know, reading it, like, is this really what you want? Are you really achieving your goals? Like, like, you want to be a ballerina, you. You wanted to do these. Like, I'm glad she's doing the Mrs. America pageants. But like, I just worry that she's not having the most fulfilling fulfillment in her life that she could have. And like, there's. They have every means for her to have what she wants. They have the money, they have the means. Means, like they have people that can take care of the kids, I think. But like, I just, I just worry about her. And I think other people were concerned too. Especially when they're like, you know, send her to Greece. You know, she deserves to go there. So, like, yes, I. I think I. That's an interesting perspective about this author. And. And then the culture in Europe and how that's a little bit different. And then, like, the. The commentary you. You made, Celeste, where. Where, like, women have. Fighting for. For these rights. We've been fighting for the right to be. To have equal pay. We've been fighting for the right to be in the workplace, to work longer hours or whatever. Like, women have fought really hard for these things. And then. So maybe it is a little bit threatening to see a woman who's making a different decision. And then, you know, they have certain lawmakers that are. That are even trying to push that. That's the norm anyway. So. Yeah, I just thought that was an interesting take that this author had.

John Dehlin [02:46:23] Yeah, well, speaking of her response, I thought it was interesting. And, Julia, you've got a slide on this that apparently Hannah and maybe her husband respond, and the article is, ballerina Farm sets the record straight. We are co parents, co CEOs. And then they followed up with the video. Is that right? Do you want to set this up, Julia?

Julia [02:46:47] Well, so they. The Deseret News article, what they're doing is they're just summarize what I can read from it. They're basically just summarizing this video. You know, they reference the video at the front, and then they're just quoting her throughout, and they're. She's setting the record straight on a lot of it. So if we just play the video, I feel like that will do.

John Dehlin [02:47:04] Well, all right, let's play it.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:10] A couple of weeks ago, we had a reporter come into our home to learn more about our family and business. We thought the interview went really well, very similar to the dozens of interviews we had done in recent memory. We were taken back, however, when we saw the printed article, which shocked us and shocked the world by being an attack on our family and my marriage, portraying me as oppressed with my husband being the culprit. This couldn't be further from the truth. Nothing we said in the interview implied this conclusion, which leads me to believe the angle taken was predetermined. For Daniel and I, our priority in life is God and family. Everything else comes second. The greatest day of my life was when Daniel and I were married 13 years ago. Together, we have built a business from scratch. We've brought eight children into this world and have prioritized our marriage all along the way. We are co parents, co CEOs, co Diaper changers, kitchen, kitchen cleaners and decision makers. We are one. And I love him more today than I did 13 years ago. We have many dreams still to accomplish. We aren't done having babies. We are excited for our new farm store to open. And I can't wait to see what the future holds for the rest of it. But for now, I'm doing what I love most, being a mother, wife, a businesswoman, a farmer, a lover of Jesus, and making meals from scratch.

John Dehlin [02:48:41] Scratch. So, like, before we have any critical responses to that, how can we affirm and take her at her word for what she's saying?

Alyssa Alexander [02:48:52] ALYSSA I mean, I think at the base, like, we want to believe what she's telling us. I'm glad that she put out a statement or a video being able to explain her side. And I believe her when she says that she feels fulfilled by mothering, by cooking from scratch, by farming. I do not disagree with that. And I am glad that she is in a position where she is happy and that she can tell us that she's happy doing those things.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:19] Sammy yeah, I think, I believe she's earnest in saying all that stuff. And maybe all of the things that the journalist picked up on and that we read were all just a bunch of miscommunications. You know, maybe the journalist didn't pick up on the true vibe of their dynamic or, you know, it's just this giant misunderstanding. But like, like, typically what we read in the article would be, like, considered yellow or red flags for, like, coercion. And, you know, I think she's also just not aware of, like, the stark difference that, like, the way a British journalist is going to be receiving the stuff she's seeing versus maybe even just simply the American journalists she's used to interacting with. Like, she said that in that video, like, the things that come first for us is God and family. And it's like, well, what does God mean to you? It means the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church is a patriarchal church. We've all, we've spent this stream going through all of the quotes that church leaders have said that are, like, just profoundly sexist and, like, put men in a position of authority over women. And then we saw evidence of that playing out in their relationship in the article. And, like, we see things that make us, like, deeply uncomfortable. Like with the egg apron where he's like, you're welcome, and she's like, performing for him, even though she's clearly experiencing disappointment, she's, like, immediately suppressing that feeling. So I don't know, it's like, yeah, there's a chance it's all just a big misunderstanding. We've all totally got the wrong impression. But it's like even if that were true, it still doesn't remove the fact that she still received all of this specific patriarchal conditioning that led up to her making all these choices. And it still doesn't take away from the fact that we can't be just ignoring the kind of flags we saw in that article. Because even if this is a crazy example of misunderstanding, for in most cases when we read something like that, it is going to be indicative of something that is really, really troubling. So like we have to like look at it as like at a systemic level. And you know, we don't really need to know how happy she truly is or isn't or whether ballet was truly her dream that she secretly harbors a desire to go back to. We don't really need need to know all that to talk about just like the systems involved in all of this. And yeah, and also it's like happiness and like women having freedom and autonomy are two different things. Like, so I think someone in the comments said like a gilded cage is still a cage and like maybe she doesn't consider herself in a cage and that's fine and like we don't necessarily have to protect project that narrative onto her, but it's just like someone can be happy in an oppressive system and that doesn't mean that it's not still worth talking about that system and how we're seeing it play out. Like it feminism isn't necessarily about happiness. Like it's about women having freedom and the ability to choose and like true autonomy.

John Dehlin [02:52:08] Love it. Love it. Celeste.

Celeste Davis [02:52:11] Well, yeah, well said Sam. Nodding along to all everything you said. And yeah, I think, I think online it can be taken to extreme and there's a lot of comments that think that she needs to be rescued or like we need to jump in there or like force her to do one thing or the other. Like free Hannah. Yeah, it's definitely that discussion online and I just can't help but like put myself in her shoes when I was very, very Mormon. And like my perspective now, looking back on my life when I was a very traditional wife, stay at home, mom doing all the things, is that I would have been so much happier if I had like a part time job or something outside of the home. But if I would have had that and that would have been church approved because if I would have had that forced on me, I would have hated it. For instance, when my babies were very little, I had jury duty for a full week and I had to get childcare 9 to 5. And I hated it. I couldn't wait to run back to my kids, even though now, like, looking back, I was very exhausted and, you know, kind of just like an oppressed, like, housewife to the system, really, of, like, my own expectations. And I didn't have a lot of autonomy and all of that. And I would have. I think I would have. Have been much. My mental health would have been way better had I had something outside the home, but not one if it was forced upon me because I was living my choice. And it sounds like Hannah is living her choice, and I think she should be able to have the freedom to do that. But I do think that it is definitely worth the discussion to have exactly like Sam was saying, like, okay, what kind of systemic roles are being played in her life? And it's worthy of the conversation. I don't think we should all collectively, like, decide what needs to happen in Hannah's life. That's not for us, that's for her. And she seems to be living the exact life that she's wanting, given how she was raised. And I'm. I want that for her.

John Dehlin [02:53:52] Beautiful. Thanks, Les. Julie, did you have a response?

Julia [02:53:56] Yeah, I just thought it was interesting. Like, you know, if she's saying that she's not oppressed and that that's really far from the truth, then then we can. I want to trust her. I want to believe her. But, like, speaking again, like, of the overall system of Mormonism and how Mormonism has. Has treated women or has as a conditioned women to. To fit into this box. You are supposed to be a wife, a homemaker, a mother. Like, the word oppressed means burdened by abuse of power or authority. And we're being. Women are being told that they need to be these things by people who say that they speak for God. And so, like, in a way, I. Part of me wants to say, yes, Mormon women are oppressed. They're being told and they're being limited. They're burdened by what they're being told by the leaders. And so, like, part of me is like, yes, that's the case. But, like, you know, if. If Hannah's saying she's not, then. Then we should take her at her word. But, like, but yeah, of course we can open up and have this discussion overall about the system.

John Dehlin [02:54:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:50] And patriarchy is at its peak strength when women aren't even aware that they're oppressed?

Celeste Davis [02:54:57] Yes. Amen.

John Dehlin [02:55:00] Powerful. Okay, well, what I'm going to do this has been so, so valuable and fascinating for me. You're all so brilliant and I mean that sincerely. And I'm grateful that you all are willing to talk about very hard things and you do it with a lot of humor and wisdom and grace. But I know that these are very sensitive and painful things. So I want to just acknowledge that you're all willing to have this conversation and sort of educate us all or put voice to this, given that it's actually quite serious and painful stuff. I'm going to ask you all to prepare closing comments, and what I'm going to do is give a few thoughts really quickly as you're all kind of thinking about how you want to end. Is that okay? And I'll just share, I believe let's just say we all agree that Hannah's happy. She's made the choices she wants and it's going to end fabulously for her. Having spent the past 20 to 30 years talking to ex Mormon women and talking to Mormon women and having, you know, being married to a woman who had four kids and seeing a lot within Mormonism, I'll just say this. I'm worried when she says we're doing this because we put God and the church first or God and the family, but it's really God. And what is God? God is what the Mormon prophets see and revelators have told her God wants. And the problem? There are a couple problems. I think building your identity and your marriage and the number of kids you have, all on the Mormon God is deeply problematic in 2024. Why? First and foremost, the Mormon Church is experiencing massive hemorrhage. People are fleeing not just organized religion broadly, but Mormonism in particular. People Hannah's age have like a 20% chance of remaining active and faithful in the church. So it's very, very likely that either she or her husband Daniel at some point are going to lose their faith in Mormonism. And as soon as that happens, it's more most likely that the other is going to quickly follow suit. And then as soon as both have lost their faith in Mormonism, it's like the Truman Show, Matrix, red pill, Pleasantville, tangled moment where you've built your whole life on these assumptions that then can evaporate literally in a two hour read of the CES letter cesletter.org, right, or one episode of Mormon Stories, you learn about things you were never taught, you didn't have informed consent, you bought into all this stuff made these harrowing, massive commitments, and then all of a sudden, you don't believe anymore or your husband doesn't believe anymore. And then all of a sudden you're thinking, I gave up Juilliard and my ballerina career, and I didn't pursue grad school, and I had eight kids, and it was all based on the Mormon God and Mormon theology and Mormon history. And now I don't believe it anymore, and neither does my husband. Would I have made these decisions anymore? And if they both defy all odds and remain active, faithful, devout Mormons for the rest of their lives, then I guess, yay. Now, having said that, what's the likelihood that any of their kids are going to remain active? Again, very low. We know that as of now, something like 40% of returned missionaries in 2024 who are Mormon returned missionaries leave the church within six months of returning home. So of her kids, very few of them are likely to remain active. And then all of a sudden, she's going to say, was it because I was an influencer, Mom? Was it because I didn't do a good enough job? Was I not faithful? What if I'd spent less time influencing and more time with my kids would. More of them would remain active? Like the Mormon Church sets up women to feel like they're complete failures and to feel like they wasted lives or at least made decisions under false pretenses once they realized that the church isn't what it claims to be. So I'm worried for them, first and foremost, because I fear that they're building their world and their decisions on a Sandy foundation. That's my. That's my primary concern. And I don't know if it's even my role to have an opinion about

Samantha Shelley [02:59:47] that, but, no, that was so spot on.

John Dehlin [02:59:49] Is that okay?

Samantha Shelley [02:59:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:51] As a woman.

Samantha Shelley [02:59:52] As a woman, John, that was great.

John Dehlin [02:59:53] All right, all right. Okay. Well, that's. That's my concern. And then I'm just going to say, in a world of Ruby, Frankie, Jody, Hildebrandt, were Mormon influencers. Years we're seeing how toxic being a Mormon mom influencer can be to a marriage, to a mom's mental health, and to all the children. Why in the world would anybody want to take on that risk of parading their children around on social media? Themselves, their husbands, their family, knowing that it's, number one, toxic to mental health and to family health. But number two, how, if any little thing goes wrong, if Daniel falls away, if Daniel has an infidelity, if she has an infidelity if any of her kids have trouble or leaves the church, the feeding frenzy of the paparazzi and the social media are going to descend upon them in ways we all know are disastrous. And it's just yet another Mormon family setting themselves up for the inevitable eventuality of that paparazzi Internet feeding frenzy that will happen when they fall short of the norms in very predictable ways. Okay, I'm done. Sammy, you're next.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:08] I feel like you did such a good job highlighting how. Yeah, it's almost like multiple layers of it being a house of cards, because it's like their entire life is built on Mormonism. Well, Mormonism's truth claims are false. And then like you said, like, if anything. Yeah. You said it all perfectly. So I don't really know.

John Dehlin [03:01:24] Oh, no, I didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:26] No, you did a great job. Maybe I'll have more thoughts in.

John Dehlin [03:01:29] Okay, I'll come back to you.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:30] Yeah, come back to you.

John Dehlin [03:01:31] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [03:01:31] Alyssa, this is, I guess, kind of a slight pivot, but just something that I was thinking about. When I watch the Ballerina Farm content in so many ways, it feels like I'm watching the much more aesthetic animated version, I guess not animated, played out, real life version of what all of the general conference talks I've ever heard my entire life about what it means, what the perfect life looks like. And this article kind of felt like a faith crisis in a way of seeing the cracks, seeing how it's falling apart, seeing. And it's not falling apart. That was a little bit dramatic, but we see that it's not as perfect. She's exhausted. The dynamic, at least the way it was portrayed, is not this flawless dynamic that we've all thought as watching people Ballerina Farm for, you know, several years. I have many Mormon friends who watch Ballerina Farm and kind of view her as as aspirational. And she's like, she's living the Mormon dream in so many ways. She has the kids, she's doing the chores, she's cleaning. She looks perfect and stunning all the time. And seeing that just really made me think about, like, all of the pressure that is still on Women Even in 2020, 24, even though it's not 1950s America anymore. Even for me personally, even though I'm out of the church now, even though I didn't have children until after I left the church, the amount of pressure and deconstructing that I'm still doing, the amount of charged emotion I still feel around domestic duties that I wish I could just look at as a neutral part of life that I feel like have been informed by decades of being within the church and that I don't know how even outside of the church, I know it's going to take a long time to unravel. It just is. I guess it's just really interesting to think about how she's like, exhibiting all of this in the way that I know so many Mormon women who aren't planning on becoming farmers or 10 million followers on Instagram, how they still see that as the ultimate goal and no matter what they're doing, they're going to be falling short of that. And, and then even to peek behind the curtain and see that even her life is not it all is a tiny bit of a farce at the way that so much of the Mormon Church's claims on what makes women happy also is unrealistic and incomplete.

John Dehlin [03:03:50] Beautiful. Well said, Julia.

Final Reflections on Mormon Women and Autonomy

Julia [03:03:53] One thing that I kept thinking when I was reading this is thinking about the historical aspect of women's rights and how I think we've mentioned this before, but like, the leading proponent against women's rights has always been women. Women have spoken. Women who, who in their journals are right about how much they hate polygamy or how hard it is on them, they'll stand up and defend it publicly. Or these women in the, in the 70s and the push for the era, these women who, they're like, we, we don't need to go to college. We don't need equal pay. We don't, we don't need to go to these jobs. Like, we're fine. Like, like women have spoken out against women. Like, anyway, I just, I worry about Hannah. I hope she's okay. I hope that she, I hope that she is happy and I hope that she's doing what, what she wants and this is really what she wants. And if, if it's not, I hope that she can, she can get it,

Alyssa Alexander [03:04:41] reach out and grab that beautiful Celeste.

Celeste Davis [03:04:46] Yeah, I think that I will just be pointing to this. I'm really thankful for this article. I think I'll be pointing it for years to come of when I'm trying to, trying to describe the harms of Mormon patriarchy. I'm going to be like this, like, showing it and even in a way where, like, yeah, Hannah's still defending it and she's still saying, this is my life and this is what I want to live and this is what I am. But just having that outsider come in for four hours and be like, your husband is always interrupting you. You're constantly deferring to your husband. Sounds like you gave up all of your dreams for your husband's dreams. Sounds like your husband doesn't really want you to have. Have an epidural or take your degrees, all of these things. It's just like, oh, thank you. Yes. You made the invisible visible. This is like the. This is the kind of like what Alyssa was saying. In so many ways, Hannah represents the perfect Mormon woman. Like a general conference talk for womanhood in this perfectly packaged box to. You could just watch, like, this is what they want you to do. This is what they want you to be. This is what women are kind of aspiring to. And then this journalist comes in, gives us a peek behind the curtain, and it's like, oh, there's a lot of con, like, a lot of sacrifice that the wife is making. A lot. And even though she is the public face of this company, it's still so much deferring to the husband. And he's playing his role too. He's.

Julia [03:06:07] He's.

Celeste Davis [03:06:08] They're both were given the scripts, and they're both seem to be acting them out to a tee. So, anyway, I'm thankful for the article. I'm thankful for the discussion it's bringing up. I think it's a worthwhile discussion. I do like Julia, wish Hannah all the happiness, but it is hard not to see the kind of puppet strings of Mormon patriarchy behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [03:06:29] Brilliant. Thanks, Celeste. Sammy, you got a thought?

Samantha Shelley [03:06:33] Hey. I've been aggressively nodding at everything everyone just said. The only final thought I have to say is I've been coaching ex Mormon women for almost five years now as they're navigating faith transitions. And the number one thing I hear from all of the ex woman women who I coach is that they're not. They don't know how to figure out what they want. They don't know how to even ask themselves effectively what they want because the software is simply not there. And most of those women are like Hannah. Not in the sense that they're, like, married to the son of a billionaire, but all of them say that at the time when they were in the church, when they believed its truth claims were true, they felt happy. They felt fulfilled. I mean, there were, you know, there were these things that peeked out that they kind of pushed down. It's not all sunshine and roses, but generally speaking, they would have probably described their life and their, like, fulfillment in it the way that Hannah does. And as you articulated perfectly, that's, like, scary for me to think about when looking at Hannah because, yeah, at any point she could encounter information that, like, thoroughly know, disproves the religion that she has made all her life decisions because of. So, once again, as we said at the start, like, Hannah is just like, a symbol for, like, these larger cultural phenomena and, like, things that are playing out. But something that I am, like, like, very, very confident in is the fact that Mormon women are not trained to be good at knowing what they want or asking themselves what they want. Like, it's. It takes women. It can take them, like, years of conscious effort after leaving the church to get good at, like, figuring out what they want. It's not even once you realize Mormonism is false. It's like you said, it takes, like, years to deconstruct all of that. So it's like, I don't think it's, like, offensive or, like, minimizing, like, Hannah's reality to say that, like, we should be very skeptical of her ability to narrate, like, realistically, because it's like everything she's saying and doing is built on the assumption that Mormonism is true. So, like, she's not going to be a particularly reliable narrator. So all we can do is look to her as a symbol and, like, have her spark this kind of discourse. And she's put herself forward to be that. So it's not. This isn't some, like, private person that we're just, like, going in on and, like, exposing the private life of, like, she chose to meet with this reporter.

Alyssa Alexander [03:08:57] She.

Samantha Shelley [03:08:57] She chose to be a content creator. And yeah, I think we all just want her to go to Greece.

Alyssa Alexander [03:09:03] Yes. Greece for Hannah.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:05] Greece for Hannah. 2024. I'll go with you, girl.

Alyssa Alexander [03:09:10] Take me to Greece with you.

John Dehlin [03:09:14] Yeah. I do think to be a Mormon mom in 2024 is a setup for failure. You're pretty much set up to fail either. You're going to lose your faith. Your husband will lose his faith.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:24] Faith.

John Dehlin [03:09:24] Your kids are going to leave the church. They're not going to go on missions. You're going to feel like a failure. You're not going to have a career, and you're going to. You're going to be looking at the end of your life saying, what did I do? And you will have never been given all the information to have ever been made an informed decision from the beginning with undue pressure would have been applied to you to lead to you making all of those decisions.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:45] That was another thing I meant to say. Obviously, leaving Mormonism is hard for everyone, but in my. My experience, I feel like, the grief that ex woman women feel is typically, like, greater than the grief ex woman men feel. Because for women, it's not just the grief of, like, oh, I devote my life, whole life to this church. It's like, on top of that, the ways that they sacrificed all these parts of themselves. And that's why the air gap from video was significant, because you're seeing her, like, sacrifice her own, like, authentic emotional expression in that moment to be pleasing to her husband, who's kind of being a little bit rude to her, you know, like, you're welcome. So it's like it's happening at every single level. And that's what the journalist is able to observe in a way that, like, you know, when. When for Hannah and Daniel, they've swam in those waters their whole life. How could they? But a journalist is coming in and seeing all of these things that to them are just nothing.

John Dehlin [03:10:35] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:10:35] And there you go.

John Dehlin [03:10:37] Beautiful. Well, each of you are doing amazing, cool things in the world. So I want to end by each of you, you having a chance to kind of plug what you're doing and how people can follow you. And Alyssa, I think. I don't even know. Are you publishing your writings at all?

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Alyssa Alexander [03:10:53] I sure am.

John Dehlin [03:10:54] Yeah. Where can people follow?

Alyssa Alexander [03:10:56] Just at various places. I'm submitting to a few things right now. I think the most recent. I think the most recent one was actually in February, but I'm excited about that one. So go read. Is an essay called Freeing Lucy by Alyssa Whitbeck published in a magazine called May Day that's about kind of like a connection between Mormonism and current, contemporary and historical. And I have a couple other essays that I've published in various places that you can find. I guess you can look at my link tree on Instagram. On Instagram. Oh, Alyssa Whitbeck on Instagram. Lyslikes words on TikTok.

John Dehlin [03:11:31] So you. Yeah. You have a great TikTok channel.

Alyssa Alexander [03:11:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:11:33] Lys list likes words. Okay. So they can follow you there. All right. Sammy?

Samantha Shelley [03:11:41] Yeah. I'm oneself on the shelf on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. We're also reading Tennis Shoes among the Nephites on Patreon. So that's a fun adventure.

John Dehlin [03:11:48] And then your coaching practice, how do people find you?

Samantha Shelley [03:11:51] Yeah, if you follow me on my personal Instagram, which is the Sam's Fo, or if you follow us on Zelf, it's in my link trees, respectively.

John Dehlin [03:12:00] Okay. And Julia, you've got an amazing TikTok and Instagram presence. Tell us about that.

Julia [03:12:07] Yeah, so I explore Mormon history and different aspects about it. And my handle is analyzing Mormonism on TikTok and Instagram.

John Dehlin [03:12:15] Don't you sell out of print books, too?

Julia [03:12:17] Yeah, we've been trying to print them. We've got a few. We have one that's my favorite. It's one of Brigham Young's wives. She divorced him and wrote this book called wife number 19. And you can get it on Amazon with the original cover. That or a redone up original cover. I don't know how to say that. But anyway, so, yeah, we've been trying to print old Mormon books that are now out of print.

John Dehlin [03:12:38] And what's the press called? Or is there a website?

Julia [03:12:41] Yeah, you can find it on analyzing Mormonism.com@the. There's a little spot at the store you can find these books.

John Dehlin [03:12:48] Beautiful. Celeste, tell us about your writing.

Celeste Davis [03:12:53] Yeah, so I do a weekly substack. It's called Matriarchal Blessing. Everything is at Celeste M. Davis, Instagram @celestemdavis. A website @celestemdavis substack, celestial M. Davis also I do. I'm a spiritual director. So I also meet with people one on one, mostly who are leaving Mormonism. That can be. You can find that@celestemdavis.com that's kind of

John Dehlin [03:13:19] a coaching practice for women in religious transition. Or is it women and men?

Celeste Davis [03:13:24] It's women and men.

John Dehlin [03:13:25] Okay, excellent. Great. Well, I am super honored and grateful for all of you coming on the show. Brilliant. Thank you. Bless you. And we all come on again. Someday. Maybe. Possibly. Yeah. All right, stay in touch. Thank you so much. And thanks, Julia, for doing all those amazing slides. Sammy, you helped a bit with the slides.

Alyssa Alexander [03:13:50] That graphic design was my passion.

Julia [03:13:53] Top notch.

John Dehlin [03:13:55] Anyway, thanks to Maven for moderating the comments, Brooklyn for the editing, Gerardo for the thumbnails. Our board, everyone at the Open Stories foundation, couldn't do it without you. Mostly thanks to our donors who donate. We will be paying all these women for their participation. That money comes from our donors. So if you donate. Thank you. If you don't donate, but you value this content, we would love you to become a monthly donor. It's really easy. Just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Sign up for whatever monthly contribution you're comfortable making. We'll continue providing coverage of this type of stuff, quality panelists, as long as y' all are willing to support. So please do support us. We lose donors every month. We probably lose 10 to 20 recurring donors every month. They fall in financial hard times, they pursue other interests, whatever it is, and if we don't have new people signing up to replace them, then we have to start cutting services. So please, thank you for your support. Support us if you can. Check in for future episodes. And this is sort of our attempt at covering current events in a way that's thoughtful and not ambulance chasey or too excessively tabloidy. If you like this kind of stuff, we want to hear it. So we'll do more of it. If you want us just to only do long form faith transition stories, we want to hear that too. Let us know if you like this format and we'll act accordingly. Anyway, be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks for joining us today. Love to the Neelemans. We wish you all the happiness, health and success and empowerment in the world. We hope none of the bad things happen to you and all the good things happen to you and your children for generation and generation and generation. Amen and Amen. That's our final hope. Hope. Bless you, Daniel and Hannah Neman, that all the good things come to you. And I say these things in the name of ballerina farms. Amen. Take care, everybody.

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