Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 27, 2016, and things have been going really well for Mormon Stories. We've had some great episodes lately in some great series. We've recently done the series on early return missionaries. We just had a fantastic couple episodes with the hackings and with the caters, which have been really, really popular. And we're about to kick off a series on Mormons in the United Kingdom, in England and maybe even Scotland. But I had a story come to me just yesterday or the day before, and it's the type of story that I'm very committed to covering. Today we're going to be interviewing Amy and Jake Maloof is how you guys pronounce it.

Jake Malouf [00:00:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] They live in Alaska. What part of Alaska?

Amy Malouf [00:00:56] We live in Anchorage.

John Dehlin [00:00:57] Anchors Alaska. Okay. And my understanding is that they've played a really important role, or at least an important role in the church there for quite some time. Very, very historically committed and active and well respected members of the church. And I was informed recently that they, one or both of them have been summoned to a disciplinary council in their stake. And we're just a week or two away. What's the date of the disciplinary council?

Amy Malouf [00:01:28] It's October 11th.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] And is it both of you or just one of you?

Jake Malouf [00:01:32] Well, there's a story there, but we talked them into both of us, so it'll be for both of us in front of the High Council.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] Okay, great.

Amy Malouf [00:01:39] All they really want is Jake, but I'm coming anyway.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] All right, that's good. I like that. All right, I'm excited to talk about that. And here are Mormon stories. You know, I've been through an excommunication. We've interviewed Rock Waterman and the Calderwoods and many others. I just think excommunication, I just don't like it. And I think every time it happens, there needs to be sunlight. People feel differently about it, but I just think it's important that everybody know what's going on. So I'm committed to doing as many of these interviews as needs be until, from my perspective, the practice stops, at least for things like beliefs and doubt and openly discussing doubts and things of that matter. So that's why we're doing this interview. So, Amy and Jake, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Amy Malouf [00:02:29] Thanks. Yeah, it's great to be here.

Jake Malouf [00:02:31] Thanks, John.

Amy and Jake's Early Years in the Church

John Dehlin [00:02:32] All right, so let's begin by just talking briefly about each of your backgrounds in the church and kind of your early years. So, Amy, why don't we start with you. What. Are you comfortable sharing your maiden name?

Amy Malouf [00:02:45] Yeah, it's Robinson, Amy Robinson Maloof. And I was born in Salt Lake City the year Star wars came out. It was rad.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] 77.

Amy Malouf [00:02:55] 77, yeah. Nice. And born in Salt Lake City to a happy Mormon family. Both my parents are still active members of the church. My mother was a convert. She converted when she was in her early 20s, was up at Utah State and came to Utah because she didn't want to be around the California drinking crowd. And that was a big motivation for her just to find fun friends to be with that were clean living. And so Utah had a big draw for her. And my dad comes from pioneer stock. His family's in southern Utah and Las Vegas and mostly Mormons and various levels of activity. But, yeah, good people that were committed and committed their lives to the faith and. Yeah, where do you want to go from?

John Dehlin [00:03:53] How was your upbringing in the church? Were you active? Did you enjoy it? Did you have good experiences, bad experiences? How was your upbringing?

Amy Malouf [00:04:02] It was idyllic. It was really nice. I had a good group of friends. My family was a pivotal part of my life. We had a. I thought life was perfect and felt very blessed. You know, there's always ups and downs with growing up and the roller coasters of learning how to use your body and turn into a teenager and all that stuff, but it was great.

Amy Malouf [00:04:28] My whole neighborhood was Mormon, I mean, for the most part. And most of my friends were LDs, and it was a big part of my life. I had a few friends that weren't members. And one of the things that was hard for me as a kid was the way non members were treated by my Mormon friends. And it was pretty pack like and aggressive a lot of the times. And I remember being torn a lot with that and whether to, you know, stand by my friends or just be quiet and let the bullies bully. But. So that was probably one of the big, big things to put on my shelf as a kid.

Amy Malouf [00:05:09] How can. How can Mormons be such brats when we all know better? And. But, you know, the church was true and it was. It was. It was just the people. It was a people problem, not a doctrine problem. And so I was. It didn't. That didn't matter for me.

Amy Malouf [00:05:28] I was full committed and was active in young women's, had good callings there and did lots of stuff. Kind of by high school I was a little bit. I had better things to do with my time than go to young women's because the activities were Boring. And I'd rather go mountain biking or climbing. And so that was a.

Amy Malouf [00:05:47] It was just more fun. They didn't fill a need for me, but it wasn't. It wasn't because of lack of testimony. It was just, these activities are boring and I've got better stuff to do. But yeah, I read my scriptures, said my prayers, wrote my journal, didn't shop on Sunday, didn't drink coffee, loved the smell of coffee, but I didn't drink it. And I was willing to go to my grave not drinking coffee because it was just the wrong thing to do. Or at least that was our commandment right now. And yeah, so, yeah, happy childhood life was good.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] And did you feel like, what was your testimony rooted in? Had you had powerful spiritual experiences? Was it more socially constructed?

Amy Malouf [00:06:30] It was rooted in the doctrines of Jesus Christ. There was a lot of cultural things like green jello and church dances that just drove me crazy. I just assumed, do other things. But the doctrines of Christ were huge for me and the atonement and prayer and that I was loved and that I had a divine purpose that was all intact and powerful. And the annoying things about church culture for me were like, well, this is a ridiculously. We have ridiculously boring parties.

Amy Malouf [00:07:05] Half the people, most of the people drive me crazy because we talk about the weather and just cross stitching and I want to go climb some mountains and do real stuff and jump off high things with bungee cords. And I wanted adventure and excitement. And it really wasn't offered to me at church. But that's not why I was there anyway, so it didn't matter. It was just more of a social annoyance.

Jake Malouf [00:07:29] Partly because you were a girl and

Amy Malouf [00:07:31] partly because I was a girl. I remember when I was 14, I set up an appointment with my bishop because the boys were doing a high adventure and all we got to do is car camping. And I said, this is not fair. I want to go and do some of these rad adventures. So I set up an appointment. I went in and talked to him and he said, well, what do you want me to do? I said, well, I think I should go with the boys. I'm tough enough. I'm tougher than most of them. I'm faster than most of them. I think you should let me go and what's the problem?

Amy Malouf [00:07:59] And, you know, I would. I think it's really funny now, but I was serious about my plight and that I was being treated unjustly. And he said, well, we just don't have the leadership for it. Well, we had Two leaders that would have gone, but it was a boys trip and I was the only one that wanted to go. So, yeah, I put that on my shelf and said, when I'm a leader, I'm going to fix that.

Amy Malouf [00:08:28] We'll get to that stuff later. But yeah, that was huge for me. Just the overt sexism and the unapologetic sexism that was just there. And women got stuck with the shaft. Men got to go move all the boxes when it was moving day, and women got to clean around the toilets. That's a raw deal. Boxes are so much more fun to move than clean toilets. I'll move boxes any day.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Sure.

Amy Malouf [00:08:52] So, yes, the gender issues were huge for me. Like, just massive. Probably one of the biggest things of. I'm going to make this work, but it sucks.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Yeah, yeah. But your testimony was super rooted in Christ and that was your rock.

Amy Malouf [00:09:07] Yeah, that was my rock. So the social, all the other things that the church fell short in, of which there were many, they didn't matter to me. So I was going to just be a change to fix them.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Got it.

Amy Malouf [00:09:19] So, yeah, that was my.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] All right, Amy, thanks for the intro. All right, Jake, your turn.

Jake Malouf [00:09:26] My turn. I wrote notes because I have a short memory, but yeah, similar to Amy, I think had we met each other when we were younger, I think we would have been best friends. I'm born in the church, raised in Utah. Cache Valley. Super strong family.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Cache Valley.

Jake Malouf [00:09:44] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Which high school?

Jake Malouf [00:09:46] I went to Skyview.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] Yes. Bobcats.

Jake Malouf [00:09:49] Awesome. The true school. Yeah. In fact, we just went to our 20 year reunion last year. It was super fun to go back. Yeah. Super strong family connections, long connection to Mormonism. Some. Some in my family were, you know, more recent converts, like my. My grandparents then. But then also I have pioneers that walked across the plains.

Jake Malouf [00:10:12] Primarily an entirely LDS family, with a few exceptions. You know, I had really good friends that I grew up with, raised by people and family and friends that taught me to work hard and play harder and think deeply, seek truth, that type of thing.

Jake Malouf [00:10:30] I have no complaints about my childhood as far as church stuff. You know, I was into it. I had my Eagle Scout when I was 13 years old and kind of a charger. You know, there's the. I don't know if you've heard of the Lotto jets, this bike race that goes from Logan up to Jackson.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] Logan to Jackson.

Jake Malouf [00:10:49] Yeah. My buddy and I, we were, you know, we were 14 when we decided we were gonna go do that. And we signed up for the race and they said well, there's no category for someone your age. And so we said, well, let's make one. And so they did. And so we did it every year from thereafter. And just, you know, lots of kind of, you know, I played saxophone and piano and went mountain climbing and skiing and hunting and this, you know, kind of the.

Jake Malouf [00:11:13] I really bought into this notion of it's important to improve yourself and be involved in kind of the Renaissance type idea. And kind of some of that led to, you know, how we lead our lives now, which we can get into later.

Jake Malouf [00:11:30] I remember fantasizing, as I was doing, we'd do some of these things, and I'd fantasize about maybe winning some great race someday, and I'd be in the Olympics, and I'd dash across the line against all odds, and I would stand in front of the world, and I would testify that my success was due to my strict obedience to the word of wisdom. And I'd grow the church. You know, stuff like that.

Jake Malouf [00:11:55] I think I. Sorry if there's any super athletes out there, but I think there's a certain level of narcissism that has to exist to compete at that level. So I never did. But. But we like being active, that type of thing.

Jake Malouf [00:12:08] You know, I grew up, I worked on a farm, kind of that farm stock. The guy who ran the farm, it was a working historical farm. He was actually our Sunday school teacher. He's kind of a crusty guy, partly active, but he taught us how to work. And we love spending time out with the shire workhorses and shoveling manure. He'd teach us things like, the only thing you can do well with a pair of gloves on is wet your pants. Good sayings like that.

Jake Malouf [00:12:39] But that was kind of how I grew up. My mom, she had arthritis, severe rheumatoid arthritis growing up. And I think that shaped a lot of the way I viewed the world, gender roles in particular, just simply because she physically couldn't do some things that maybe women in the church or women in general would typically do. And so I would see my dad, you know, doing the dishes and doing all these other things in addition to everything else he did. And I think it. It was a good example, like, hey, you know, you can do stuff if it's satisfying and meaningful and purposeful. It doesn't really matter what your gender is.

Jake Malouf [00:13:19] And, you know, and. And I'm sorry my mom has to go through that challenge, but I think she and I would agree that it's got its benefits. It's taught us Some things church, I'm super committed. It's kind of that type that would read the Book of Mormon before you're baptized and that type of thing. I had a strong desire to serve in the church and I'd fantasize as I, I remember pushing the lawnmower once and I'd fantasize, someday I'm gonna be the leader in the church and change the world. And I did have one experience, well, several really, but one experience that was pretty impactful in my life.

Jake Malouf [00:14:04] I went to Efy when I was 14. You know, that's what you do. And my friends are going. So I shelled out the bucks and we went down to BYU for a week. And while I was there, you know, there's all the dances and workshops and things and I was just kind of like, I don't know, what is the deal with all this? And I remember one night praying, just like sitting down on my knees in the dorm and I kind of had a pretty amazing experience for me. And I think if using Mormon terms, I would say, you know, it was like a baptism by fire or something.

Jake Malouf [00:14:38] I don't know what it was, John, honestly, but from that I felt a deep, deep sense that there are higher powers above and that I'm loved and that life is good. And I don't know what that was, but I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention that just simply because it was a pretty formative experience and foundational to kind of who I was. I wanted to do good stuff and I kept going back. One thing that always kind of puzzled me with that experience is I'd heard of people having similar things and I thought, well, you're going to get this big witness and it's going to say the church is true.

Jake Malouf [00:15:20] And I never ever got that. What I got was I'm loved and life is good, but I never. There's no the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith or the church or this, that or the other. It was something delt, something different,

Amy Malouf [00:15:39] you

Jake Malouf [00:15:39] know, callings, you know. I went on a mission to Italy. Generally challenging, but generally I'd say a pretty positive experience. All sorts of stories there been, you know, a teacher, an advisor, elders quorum president, young ward, mission leader, branch president, bishopric councilor for many years. Lots, lots and lots of kind of higher profile, active, time consuming type, servicing within the church. I don't know what else.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] That's great. No, so that's really good background. You guys got married and I'm sure that we could dig a Lot into two incredible lives. But for the sake of kind of hitting this topic hard, maybe from here. Talk about what, you know, after you got married, what things led to sort of whatever conflict you're now facing. I'm assuming you guys both served. What I've heard is that you guys are pretty connected and well respected couple in the Anchorage community. I don't mean to over blow that, but that's, that's kind of.

Jake Malouf [00:16:52] Yeah, I wouldn't over blow it. But yes, some people feel that way.

Amy Malouf [00:16:56] Yeah, we have more. We have more friends than enemies.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] But right now, as of now, for

Jake Malouf [00:17:02] now, well, I think we're already on the outs with a few. But yeah, we have a great social network and I think generally. Well, like.

Building a Life Together in Alaska

John Dehlin [00:17:10] So you've been in Alaska how long?

Amy Malouf [00:17:13] 14 years. Our daughter was a baby when we moved up.

Jake Malouf [00:17:16] Okay.

Amy Malouf [00:17:17] So. So one thing that is kind of an important piece to the puzzle. So I went through and took out my endowments when I was 19, before I was engaged, before I wasn't mission bound. It was my next step of spiritual awesomeness and I really wanted to do it and so I did. My bishop was like, yeah, I think this will be a good thing for you.

Amy Malouf [00:17:38] So I was endowed before I even met Jake. And we were actually engaged nine months later and we got engaged in the Logan celestial room in the temple. Like we were, you know, we're full in. Like it's not any half Mormon here. Like our belief and our commitment to what we wanted and all we wanted was perfection, you know, and anyway, so a little bit of history with that.

Amy Malouf [00:18:07] So we were, we got married 2,099 and then moved up here 2002. And one of the reasons we moved up here, it was too hot in Logan. It was just too hot there. We couldn't handle it.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] That's the first time I've ever heard that.

Jake Malouf [00:18:23] And the winters, winters were too short.

Amy Malouf [00:18:25] Yeah, yeah. Winters were not wintery enough and the summers were too hot. So we drove up the highway and we've been here ever since.

Jake Malouf [00:18:35] We should probably back up a little bit though. Yeah, I think a couple pretty big formative things before we moved up to Alaska. Married in 99 and then just a few months later we ended up going to Africa together and spent, I don't know, better part of four months in Africa and studying cheetahs is through school, through Utah State University. And you know, it was super neat working with the Cheetah Conservation Fund and really got exposed to a lot of fairly prominent scientists and the concepts of Research and that type of thing, and really enhanced me. We'd already done some traveling, but it really enhanced our world lens.

Jake Malouf [00:19:15] You know, kind of living in the bush and working with people in Namibia is where we were at. And then did some traveling through Europe later and some climbing and that type of thing. But I think the professors we worked with really asked some pretty poignant questions about why do you believe what you believe? And, you know, at the time, we were very zealous about going to the animal watch stations every Sunday and having our own private sacrament meeting, because, you

Amy Malouf [00:19:43] know, yeah, we had permission to have our own sacrament meeting.

Jake Malouf [00:19:45] And it did put a lot of thoughts into our head of, like, you know, what's it like? And then shortly after that, we worked as counselors, wilderness survival counselors, for, like, a wilderness rehab program down in southern Utah. And just, you know, super neat working with these kids that would get shipped out by the court system or their parents to go get fixed by the desert and, you know, living with sticks and no matches and, you know, no tents and no sleeping bags.

Amy Malouf [00:20:16] We had a wool blanket and a bag of food. Yes, it was rad. It's pretty.

Jake Malouf [00:20:19] Pretty primitive, but it was really fun. But through that, we met. We met a number of pretty phenomenal individuals. We ended up going to a school ran by a guy named Tom Brown, who's like a.

Amy Malouf [00:20:32] He's a tracker.

Jake Malouf [00:20:33] He's like a master tracker. And we learned about various levels of awareness and different types of spirituality and survival and. But we kind of met our people for the first time, I think, really in our lives. Even though we had grown up with a strong community, we met some of these folks and we looked at each other and like, these are our people.

Amy Malouf [00:20:57] A group of 80 strangers that we felt like we'd known, like, our whole lives.

Jake Malouf [00:21:01] So I think a lot of this kind of played together. Of course, coming up here, we kind of getting out of the Utah bubble, we realized most of our closest friends were not in the church or not members of the church or never had been. And they were super great examples of healthy living and prosperous lives and true joy, every bit as, or if not more so than, our LDS friends. And so we kind of. We think about this, and I think we both kind of came to the conclusion at some point that, you know, we had great upbringings, but we're slow to give too much credit to our church membership.

Jake Malouf [00:21:39] Although initially we're like, well, we are who we are because we grew up in the church, and how would our lives be without it? But I think I've concluded that we have these experiences because of the church or, no, sorry, the other way. We have these experiences through the church, but not necessarily because of it. And I think that's an important distinction.

Amy Malouf [00:22:00] Yeah. And one thing that kept going through in my mind, I think, for both of us was, you know, by their fruits, you shall know them. And we kept seeing time and time again the fruits within the LDS Church.

Amy Malouf [00:22:15] They're kind of shriveled. They're not. We found more vibrant and better fruit consistently other places and lots of other places. And we couldn't explain it, and we were disappointed by it, and it was. But we needed to have this level of honesty of, you know what I. You know, when the leaders hop up and say and praise the youth, you know, like, you guys are the best. You're the best generation. You're the most noble. You're most amazing. And they just patronize these kids and it's.

Amy Malouf [00:22:47] I would hear them say this, and I just want to. Like, it just wasn't true. Yeah, they're good kids. They have a lot of potential just like anyone else on the planet. But it wasn't. They weren't above and beyond. And in many ways, they were less accomplished and less inspiring than many of the other youth we met outside of the church. And that was, you know, we had to reconcile that. And we couldn't just keep pretending that the fruits of the church were really good. So that was a big one. And that was consistent for a long time for both of us. I think

The Beginning of a Faith Crisis

Jake Malouf [00:23:25] maybe kind of fast forward a little bit to the actual faith process. Maybe when we began our actual faith. Call it an enlightenment. Some people call it a crisis.

Amy Malouf [00:23:35] Yeah, I don't like the term faith crisis.

Jake Malouf [00:23:36] I like to call it an awakening. Really.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] I love it. I love it.

Jake Malouf [00:23:40] But I think sometime in probably 2014, I kind of put together a timeline. Last night. We were like, man, it's like a

Amy Malouf [00:23:48] swirl sometimes trying to pinpoint what happened first.

Jake Malouf [00:23:51] But, you know, I think at the time I was the Scout Master of the ward, and I was under all this pretense that, oh, I am. The people were calling me the best scoutmaster in the church.

Amy Malouf [00:24:02] It was kind of ridiculous.

Jake Malouf [00:24:03] And I had all this pressure to, like, make amazing programs, but I found that it doesn't work to try to run an effective Duty to God program while running an effective scouting program. And they don't mesh. People say they do, but they don't.

Amy Malouf [00:24:22] You can't.

Jake Malouf [00:24:23] They don't work together. You end up with kind of a half baked hybrid of both. And I realized that hey, this program works better outside of the church. And we started looking at stuff and the Word of Wisdom was kind of a big catalyst for us confession here. I've always, always wanted to drink a beer but like Amy is like I was committed to never touch a drop of alcohol till I died because that was God's truth.

Amy Malouf [00:24:50] Right, because of the principle.

Jake Malouf [00:24:52] But looking into it, I try to be intellectually honest as well. And looking at the history of the Word of WISD and I was like, you know, I don't think this is pretty. I remember talking to a lot of our non member friends as they show us their home brew or whatever and we politely deny it or whatever. But I'd say, you know what, when we get to heaven, I'm sure we'll be drinking that stuff and it's going to be great.

Jake Malouf [00:25:16] But I look into this and I think we did a pretty exhaustive, deep, deep study into the Word of Wisdom looking at the all sorts of documents and I think by now we'd realize that it really isn't, it's pretty disingenuous to limit our study to what's been authorized by the church. I think that's pretty Orwellian and I think it's important to look at, you know, all the information that's out there and you know, weigh the facts and information as best we have them.

Amy Malouf [00:25:47] Well, and that quote by what's his face, the, the truth being harmed, that was one of our guiding quotes. I mean you've heard it probably a million times.

Jake Malouf [00:25:55] But the J. Reuben Clark quote, yeah, you got to look into this.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] If we have the truth, we have nothing to fear. If we have not the truth, we deserve to be harmed or something like that.

Jake Malouf [00:26:04] It turns out he made that statement while he was in his private journal or maybe a letter to a friend. But it wasn't never a public statement that he made, but it has since become one. But I think it underscores there's a lot of, a lot of people in the church, both prominent and not, that struggle with these issues. And I think some people kind of stuff them under a pillow and never address them and others do. And I think we're an example of what happens when you do. And I like that. Anyway, the study of the Word of Wisdom kind of opened, obviously opened an investigation. I think that was at least for us, unprecedented. I mean, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] If I could just jump in for a second. It's funny because so many, you know, transitioning and Postmortems have to fight the stereotype of, quote, wanting. Wanting to sin, and that's why they leave. And so lately I've. I've. I like to make the joke that people leave the church because they want to drink beer.

Jake Malouf [00:27:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] So just a totally valid reason.

Jake Malouf [00:27:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] And. But. But. No, no, but I was just gonna say that if you actually are applying a critical analysis. Jesus drank wine, Joseph drank beer. Joseph drank more hard, you know, alcohol. The saints drink alcohol. All the pioneers, you know, all the way through to the early, early apostles, you know, all this, like, oh, yeah, like, how? Why? And the word of wisdom itself says what? What does it say? Mild drinks of barley. Is that what it says?

Amy Malouf [00:27:38] There's the bad list and the good list, and mild drinks made of barley are on the good list. And there's only one option, and I

Jake Malouf [00:27:43] want to do the right thing, so

Amy Malouf [00:27:45] I'm gonna work on the good list. And I'm being obedient.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] You were being obedient to the word of wisdom? Not.

Jake Malouf [00:27:50] Well, we joke about that, but I think, to be honest, I mean, we've never really. I mean, we don't want to sin. That's not really our nature. But we want to do the right thing. And so people. I think, like you say, people misconstrue. Like, oh, you started drinking beer, and then you lose the stuff spirit, and then it's downhill from there. And really, it's the opposite.

Amy Malouf [00:28:10] We didn't drink beer until we decided via our study and prayer that it was all right and then we had a beer. So we technically still had, by Mormon speak, the spirit with us before we even made that decision.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] You had righteous beer is what you had.

Amy Malouf [00:28:24] Righteous.

Jake Malouf [00:28:26] We didn't pray before we drank it,

Amy Malouf [00:28:28] but the funny thing is, when we both drank it, neither of us were like, that's disgusting. Disgusting, but so determined that we were gonna like it anyway. It was just a matter of time. We just. We just kept. It was. It was some hard work, but we kept focused. We set some little goals, and we love it.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] Now you guys are overachievers in all things.

Amy Malouf [00:28:46] We were killing it. We made a little chart, but, you

Jake Malouf [00:28:48] know, we really looked into. I mean, of course, you know, all the topics, the. You know, the. You know, pick any church topic, and we dug into it. And I mean, not just superficially, but. But really. I mean, we would literally. Thousands and thousands of hours. I would wake up early in the morning and just study for hours and read. It was like.

Jake Malouf [00:29:13] It was almost addicting because it was so Distinct. Well, we had to deconstructing and figuring out and reconstructing and figuring out where we stood with all these issues. And I mean, we even met with apostles from other denominations from within Mormonism who, you know, because there's like 40 something different break offs from the original one started by Joseph. And we met with these people and, you know, and I think to be spiritually and intellectually and emotionally honest, we just had to come to the conclusions we do that the church just simply isn't what it. It's not what it claims to be.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] So, Amy, as Jake's starting to be interested in beer and in studying deeply, what's going on in your mind during that time as a perfectionist in it to win it kind of Mormon.

Amy Malouf [00:30:00] Yeah. Yeah. So the wonderful thing about our marriage is when one of us has an idea, it takes the other person about three or four seconds to have the same idea.

Jake Malouf [00:30:10] Or days or days.

Amy Malouf [00:30:12] We're usually not off very much. And it's definitely been leapfrog. I mean, you pick the topic and it's either I was interested first or he was interested first. One of the big things for me was I was in a young woman's leadership role and there was some changes and the presidency got released. And, you know, I knew these. I've worked with the youth for a long time, and I know how to run young women's and I know how to work with, you know, have fun and work and inspire the kids and play hard, work hard, cry together, laugh together, all that stuff that makes up our youth programs.

Amy Malouf [00:30:48] And, and when they redid this, when they restructured the program, they really just messed it up. And I had had, for the first time in my life, a really bad feeling about how it was restructured. And so I, you know, I prayed about it, I wrote my thoughts down, I set up an appointment with my bishop and I went in and I pretty much told him the reasons that I thought these people were totally unqualified and the, the problems I had with them being in the positions. You know, I liked them personally, but it was. They were gonna mess it up. And I could see it like plain as day, writing on the wall.

Amy Malouf [00:31:23] And I just said, I think I just have to get this off my chest. And here you go, do with it what you want. You're the bishop. But I need to tell you how I feel. And so I did. And within a year, there was a, you know, pretty much an emotional train wreck within the program.

Amy Malouf [00:31:39] Like, I, like, I mean, I didn't, I didn't say, I told you so, because I didn't need to at the time. And then I was called as the new young Women's president, and I said, I can. He's like, can you fix this? Pretty much. And I said, absolutely. I know how to fix this. You love the girls.

Amy Malouf [00:31:54] That's the main thing. You love the girls. That's what's been missing in this program with the current leadership. And. Yeah, I got that. Let's. Let's. Let's go fix this. And so. But seeing how that had happened was I was like, you know what?

Amy Malouf [00:32:11] These are good men, and they have no clue what's up. They're doing the best they can with what they've got, and they're not inspired. They're just trying to make it work, and that's okay. But they're claiming inspiration from God, and I know they don't have it. They're trying to have it. Their intentions are good. It's nothing personal.

Amy Malouf [00:32:30] But if God had truly cared about his youth programs, which, you know, we're told that they do preeminently care about the youth, then, you know, this stuff shouldn't have happened because real damage was done to real girls that, you know, that it shouldn't have happened. And they felt unloved, and it was. It was a sad situation in a lot of. In a lot of ways. And I. And I saw it in slow motion, and it was incredibly frustrating. And that was.

Jake Malouf [00:32:55] Including our daughter.

Amy Malouf [00:32:56] Yeah, including our daughter. You know, just. But. But she was. She wasn't even in there very much yet, but it was. It was a mess. And so I went in and fixed it and said, you know what? Yeah, I can fix this. You love the kids or tried to fix it. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm having all these doubts, and I'm pretty sure the church isn't true, but I'm gonna fix it anyway. And that was tricky. And then so juggling that. And then I made a new friend at the climbing gym, and we started hanging out and biking, and it was like I found my soul sister. And. And five minutes into our first bike ride, she says, hey, I'm a lesbian. I want to get this out on the table. And I said, fine, I'm a Mormon. She's like, I used to be a Mormon.

Jake Malouf [00:33:40] And there we go, and there we go.

Amy Malouf [00:33:42] And so I start listening, and we develop this beautiful friendship. And I realized for the first. Well, for the second or third time in my life that the church has caused real harm to real people. That I love.

Jake Malouf [00:33:55] Yeah, Yeah. I think we had to.

Amy Malouf [00:33:57] And it sucked. It was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] Had your friend been hurt by the church?

Amy Malouf [00:34:02] Oh, immensely. Yeah. Her family was, you know, they were. They were barreling out, talking to each other. It was. There was, you know, judgment and fear, and she, you know, she'd come into her own truth of like, this is what I need to do. And she couldn't juggle the church and her lifestyle because they're just incompatible.

Jake Malouf [00:34:26] I think it was important getting both of us became pretty good friends with her. Amy went on a climbing trip to Spain with her. They're super close, and she and her girlfriend are an important part of our lives. And getting to know them on real terms, not on. Not at arm's distance, superficial terms. Not the Mormons loving the person and hating the sin type terms, but really getting to know them is really real people. And just completely debunking this notion that these people are choosing this lifestyle. It's a very damaging rhetoric that I think they get. Fortunately, she got out of the church or left the church, not officially, but just stopped going long before any more deleterious policies came out.

Amy Malouf [00:35:12] But had she been a youth right

Jake Malouf [00:35:14] now, it wouldn't have been good.

Amy Malouf [00:35:15] It wouldn't be good. And she'd be. There's so many kids in that marginalized position. And I wasn't sympathetic to it until I really got to know someone and put away my judgment. And I'm glad I did. I'm so glad I did, because my life is better for it and it's rad. And these are awesome people that I want in my life. And if I were to be giving stop to what the church is saying about them, they wouldn't be in my life. And that would be. That would be a loss. That would be real loss. Leaving the church is, you know, it's hard, but it's not real loss. It's a net gain.

Jake Malouf [00:35:54] Yeah, I think probably. Probably an important part to bring up. Kind of in the midst of all this, you know, we discovered that beer's not bad and we've got friends that are gay and, you know, but life is good and we're generally very happy. I think we had a good friend come over and he confronted us

Amy Malouf [00:36:14] and

Jake Malouf [00:36:14] he kind of brought up some questions like, you know, I'm kind of concerned about that you're friends with this person

Amy Malouf [00:36:19] and you're not wearing your garments. I can tell because I can see your shoulders.

Jake Malouf [00:36:22] Yeah, yeah, Pretty.

Amy Malouf [00:36:24] I wear tank tops now.

Jake Malouf [00:36:25] Rebellious stuff. And he's like, what's going on like, well. And he's like, and the other day I saw her drinking beer in your house. Oh. Like. And, you know, and I looked at him and I said, you know what? That's okay, because sometimes we drink beer with them in our house, and it's fine. And, I mean, this rocked his world. And neither of us like to cause pain. And people like to get wrapped up in their. People find comfort in the church and they want it to be true. Or they may think they know it's true and they wrap themselves in this tattered, stinky blanket, but they don't want to let go of it because it's cold out there. But anyway, it was. Oh, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] No, no, finish. And then I have a question.

Jake Malouf [00:37:10] Okay. Yeah. Because this is kind of. It was kind of a catalyst for a lot of things, you know, and this was a private conversation that we had with him. But within one day, I was contacted by the stake president. They wanted us to come in. And so, you know, he had. He had, I think, well intended. And I don't fault him for it. In fact, he might be listening to this sometime.

Amy Malouf [00:37:35] Hope he does, and I hope he

Jake Malouf [00:37:36] does, but we're not upset. But he did betray our trust, and that hurts. That's damaging. And he felt like we betrayed his trust. Some of the fallout that occurs when this goes on, as you know, but that kind of started a bunch of conversations with this president and then later the Area 70, and mostly kind of just keeping it to this discussion about the Word of wisdom as kind of the talking point. But obviously there are much deeper issues.

Jake Malouf [00:38:08] But I think through all that, we learned that kind of what happens to people when they question. And we learned that the handbook of instruction trumps scripture. That trumps everything else. And kind of the overarching doctrine that we learned is prevalent in the church now is that it's better to obey the man who presides over you.

Jake Malouf [00:38:33] That's even more important than listening to your own conscience or the scriptures, if you believe in them, or personal revelation or whatever that is. It's more important to obey that guy above you. And that's the doctrine, follow the prophet. And I think this leads to some very damaging type situations.

Jake Malouf [00:38:51] So this. That kind of. It was a catalyst for us saying, you know what? This is what the church really is. We're out. We want to get out, because there's more to life than this.

Resources and the Road Out of Belief

John Dehlin [00:39:02] When you said you guys were studying kind of the truth claims of the church and stuff, what were the resources that were Useful to you as you were trying to figure out if the church was true or not?

Jake Malouf [00:39:14] We went about different ways.

Amy Malouf [00:39:16] Yeah, Totally different.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] Both of you. Both of you. Answer you.

Amy Malouf [00:39:20] So I have a lot of time to listen. I'm an artist. I work in the garage most of the time.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Are those your paintings behind you?

Amy Malouf [00:39:26] Yeah, those are beautiful. Yeah, I got lots of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] Those of you listening, check out the YouTube. There's beautiful paintings in the background. Okay.

Amy Malouf [00:39:36] Yeah. But, yeah, I can send you a link to my website if you want, actually.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] Yeah, we'll put it on the episode.

Amy Malouf [00:39:42] Sure. Yeah. So I do a lot of welding and I do metal work, and so a lot of times I just have my earbuds in and I'm working in the garage. And so I'm. Most of my processing time was listening to podcasts, listening to you, listening to lots of different podcasts, and just hearing people's stories was critical for me, and it was very validating to things that I'd felt and wondered about my whole life.

Amy Malouf [00:40:06] And then being able to hear other people that had the same thoughts and struggles and different thoughts and struggles. Different. You know, just thought whole. The stories of the damage that Mormonism does to families and to people, and realizing that the costs were huge, I made a pros and cons list. And at first it was lots of pros, and I was like, yeah, there's like, a couple cons, but the pros were winning. And the more and more I studied, the longer and longer the list of cons got. And it was. I was like, there's not even a debate here for this. And.

Amy Malouf [00:40:42] But, yeah, so it was mostly just listening to podcasts, and that was my therapy. And then I read a lot of Rock Waterman. I think he's a fascinating man, and his viewpoint on the world is. And on Mormonism was a really therapeutic thing for me to really. Just. Because he spends a lot of time just really looking at the scriptures. And. And if we say those are pinnacle in our belief system, let's actually look at them. And I, you know, I kind of hated reading scriptures.

Amy Malouf [00:41:16] I do it. But I didn't like them. They were just, you know, I did it because I was supposed to, but I didn't love them for a lot of my life, and so I didn't study different than Jake's study.

Jake Malouf [00:41:30] Yeah, my.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] Just one quick thing, Amy. For those who are kind of new to the struggle and are kind of looking for some stories to really connect with, were there any podcast episodes? Not just Mormon stories, anything. Any ones that were particularly touching or moving to you or useful or helpful to you that come to mind.

Amy Malouf [00:41:50] Yeah, but my memory is terrible sometimes, and. Yeah, I can't. I can't pull out any. Oh, not that one guy. The. The guy that ended up suing. The Tom Phillips. Tom Phillips story was fascinating.

Jake Malouf [00:42:08] The second anointing.

Amy Malouf [00:42:09] Yeah, that was crazy fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] That's a good one.

Amy Malouf [00:42:14] Yeah, that was a big one for me. And your story. And then just the other, just listening to all the stories about how you were excommunicated and how Rock was excommunicated, and that just made me want to punch stuff. Just because excommunication is so barbaric. I'm glad I'm not being drawn and quartered, but it's on the same category for me.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] Thank you.

Amy Malouf [00:42:40] Yeah,

Jake Malouf [00:42:43] it's kind of interesting. We came to the similar conclusions doing different things. My approach was more literature based. I just love to read. I actually do like reading the Scriptures, or at least I did. And I would spend lots and lots of time just devouring books and devouring commentary on scriptures. I read all. Of course, all the church essays were pretty interesting because as you go through and you realize that these church essays, at least some of them, categorically disavow doctrines that used to be eternal truths, and you can't look at that and remain honest and say that something's not. Something's not off.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] What did you so, like. Like the Race and the priesthood essay, for example. I can see you guys fine.

Jake Malouf [00:43:32] Okay, well, we can't see you, but anyway, hang on.

Amy Malouf [00:43:34] I think we just wait. Technical difficulties. I know.

Jake Malouf [00:43:38] Okay, so the not being able to see him.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] We'll work on it.

Jake Malouf [00:43:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] You, Amy, you work on it while Jake talks. It's fine if you.

Amy Malouf [00:43:49] I don't know how to work on

Jake Malouf [00:43:50] that, but I think I started out because I really wanted the church to be true and I wanted certain doctrines and foundational things to be correct. And so I would just kind of start from where we're at and I just work my way back. And I kept deconstructing and deconstructing and looking at this and the other. And I think initially I read a lot of. A lot of that Rock Waterman stuff was kind of a good transition, for sure. I still like reading some of this stuff, of course. Read all the. All the Denver Snuffer stuff, and I don't know where I stand with him. Multiple other books. What's the guy's name?

Amy Malouf [00:44:27] Adrian Larsen.

Jake Malouf [00:44:28] Adrian Larsen. Rob Smith. A lot of these tons and Tons of podcasts and blogs and I wouldn't limit. And I'd look at the church resources too, and the history and a lot of the. Just total contradictions of statements by. By previous church leaders that you just. You can chalk it up to. Well, you know, it's because we have modern revelation, but they just don't jive. And so, I mean, mostly just tons and tons of literature and study. And I took it pretty serious.

Amy Malouf [00:44:59] Oh, I forgot. One of the major things for me was Doctrine and Covenants121. My dad had us memorize this when we were teenagers. I know. Well, from verse 30, something on, many are called fewer chosen all the way to the end. I've got it in my head.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Was he a fundamentalist? Maybe secretly?

Amy Malouf [00:45:22] No, thank God, no. That'd be terrible. Well, for us, no. But yeah, he had us memorize this and the scripture of as soon as begin the unrighteous exercise unrighteous authority, you know, and.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Oh, 121. 120.

Amy Malouf [00:45:41] 132.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] I was hearing 132. I'm sorry. Oh, no, yeah, 121's great. I love 121.

Amy Malouf [00:45:47] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [00:45:47] Pretty well. Throwing 132 out.

Amy Malouf [00:45:49] 132 doesn't count for us at all.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] I'm sorry, I misheard.

Amy Malouf [00:45:55] 121 of many are called and fewer chosen. And that. That part about, you know, unrighteous dominion and all that stuff and. And I actually quoted it to my bishop when I called him out on his unrighteous dominion later on with some of our meddling with the young men's program because he wouldn't let the girls lead. That was huge, actually. Following our own scriptures and realizing how many times the church doesn't even care about our own scriptures. I said, you've dominated and it's. It's been unrighteous and it's terrible what you've done and whatever righteous is. So, you know, I feel like your priesthood's void. So I'm not gonna do what you're asking me to do. And yeah, DNC121. My dad will probably be upset that that was one of the major things that led me out of the church. But I think there's some really good stuff in there. It's a great scripture.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] It's great stuff. Yeah.

Amy Malouf [00:46:51] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [00:46:51] I mean. And honestly, you know, that's probably a different topic of what do we believe now? I mean, everyone wonders, well, what do you believe if you don't believe in the church?

John Dehlin [00:47:00] And let's end there. But go ahead, finish your sentence.

Jake Malouf [00:47:04] I'll just finish. But yeah, we can talk later. But you know, there's a lot of good stuff that comes out. There's a lot of good sayings and platitudes and things that can probably provide some benefit in life. But as to what is inspired and what is God's word, who is God, what is God, all that stuff, you know, that's. That's another topic. But then all this kind of. We were.

Jake Malouf [00:47:26] And we posted some stuff every now and then on Facebook and I think that might be for another time, but maybe actually counted them. In the last year we made 15 posts on Facebook that were not super in your face but just would pose a question or a link to an article that would bring to light some things that the church was doing or whatever and just generally more asking questions and maybe making some comparisons.

Jake Malouf [00:47:52] But fairly benign stuff. But that's what led to our being called in for disciplinary council is just a handful of Facebook posts and we've been.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] You weren't saying the, like the prophet's a fraud or the Book of Mormon's not true, was it?

Jake Malouf [00:48:11] There was a couple of posts and more comments within the posts where I would say something. The one thing that Stake President mentioned, one of the comments I made was I don't have any reason to believe that President Monson or whoever is a prophet simply because I'm not aware of any prophecies he's made. But it was, I think, something fairly innocuous of like, you know, I don't know and I don't think. And you know, I'm an open book though. But he viewed that as speaking ill of the prophet. Brethren is how we interpreted that.

Formal Involvement from Church Leadership

John Dehlin [00:48:48] Okay, so what. What were the. When did things start getting formal? How did that happen? Talk us through when you kind of got called in and how that happened.

Jake Malouf [00:49:00] So.

Amy Malouf [00:49:01] Well, so we got called in to talk about. Talk about beer. When was it? That was in 2014.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] Right?

Amy Malouf [00:49:09] That was 2014. And then there were.

Jake Malouf [00:49:11] But there's no discussion of discipline or anything.

Amy Malouf [00:49:13] No, but I didn't get my temple recommend and we were released from callings. I was no longer young women's president after pretty much after camp, after the end of the summer, Jake was released as Scoutmaster. That was all a direct result of our discussions with the Stake President.

Jake Malouf [00:49:34] Oh, they said that it wasn't, but.

Amy Malouf [00:49:36] Oh, it totally was. Yeah, they said that it didn't have an effect, but they were strongly correlated.

Jake Malouf [00:49:41] So the NAMI started teaching gospel Doctrine. I was the primary piano player, which is great because I could just read in between songs. I loved it.

Amy Malouf [00:49:49] And I used gospel doctrine as my kind of my guinea pig experiment. Time of like, if do I have anything what I believe now, do I have anything of value that these people want to hear, that my ward members want to hear? And it was running thin on what I had to offer without totally editing myself all the time. And I was self censoring a ton of. And that was hard. It was hard to be genuine in that calling. And I was never going to teach anything I didn't believe. I mean, like always, I would never. There's no way I would testify of something that I didn't believe. So that was like causing major cognitive dissonance for me of having to go and teach and really not wanting to be there. And that was in last fall, through springtime.

Jake Malouf [00:50:39] Yeah. So maybe I'll just run through this timeline real quick. I don't know how much time you've got left, but. So kind of November 2015, we went on a trip, just the two of us, to Hawaii. And we had a blast, obviously, but it gave us a lot of time just with each other. Left the kids home, farmed them out to friends and just talk about this stuff. I think November of 2015, I made my first post in Facebook that said something effective like I'm trying to be like Jesus, but the handbook won't let me or something. And you know, it kind of.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] Well, that's when the policy. That's when the big policy came out.

Jake Malouf [00:51:11] Right? That's when the policy came out.

Amy Malouf [00:51:13] Yeah, that policy was huge for us too. So.

Jake Malouf [00:51:16] And then between. And then February, we were on this cruise with our family, which gave us a chance to kind of talk with our family a little bit. You know, we have some siblings that are. Well, we won't get into that, but it allowed us to talk to our family. And then by the time we got home from that cruise, February 10, 2016, we'd made the decision that we're not going back. I posted and then a couple of other posts. I think I don't need to read all those, but the.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] You can just say what they were about, just topic wise.

Jake Malouf [00:51:54] Yeah, like I wrote this thing. I did one called my 13 articles of faith where I kind of went through the thirteen articles of Faith and kind of reframed them as to what I believe, kind of taking the church part out of it. And that kind of raised some hackles with people.

Jake Malouf [00:52:14] You know, this one post about the Tree of life. And who is that guy in the white robe? And what does that really mean? And, you know, there's some interesting stuff there. A couple posts on cognitive dissonance made. One post that alluded to the fact that the church is kind of like North Korea. That didn't make any.

Jake Malouf [00:52:33] I didn't come out directly, but, you know, there's some parallels. A couple of photos, you know, that photo of the guy looking up from the umbrella as everyone around him is kind of still under the rain, the birds flying out of the cage. The one that brought us in. In May 27, I posted one titled the Anatomy of an Excomm Inquisition. Basically it was a post by.

Jake Malouf [00:53:00] From a blogger that was just kind of highlighting what's going on with otherwise very good church type people who are getting called in for their beliefs and, you know, compared it to the kind of like the Catholic Inquisition. And after I posted that, we did get called in by the state president, he said, you know, you got to stop if you do that anymore. If you make any more Facebook posts that are related to the church or don't put the church in a favorable light, I will bring you in for disciplinary counsel.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] What did you say?

Jake Malouf [00:53:34] And I said, well, I appreciate the fair warning and I'll take that into consideration, but I need to be true to myself. But I'm not a big Facebooker all the time. And summer happened and we're busy doing other stuff and we're climbing and hiking and skiing and hunting or whatever. So I didn't think I posted anything again until September 2nd.

John Dehlin [00:53:54] Real quick, how did that feel? Did both of you go or just you? Jake?

Amy Malouf [00:53:58] It was.

Jake Malouf [00:53:58] Well, it was supposed to be just me, but again. So he. We're kind of like that.

Amy Malouf [00:54:05] Yeah. You know, we're so together on this that. And he knows that, but I think it's insulting when he just says, hey, I want to talk to Jake. Amy, you can say whatever you want. It doesn't matter. But Jake's opinions matter. So that just.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] My wife attended three or four of those meetings with my stake president. They didn't ask her a single question the whole time. Yeah, and she was exactly where I was. She was exactly where I was. They didn't care.

Amy Malouf [00:54:32] They don't care. Women just don't matter. It's just. It's too bad because it's. It's too bad for them mostly. I mean, they're missing out half the planet.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] How did it feel to both of you to be pulled in for Facebook posts and for even Doubts or questions. How did that feel?

Jake Malouf [00:54:50] You know, it feels. You know, the church talks a lot about agency and freedom, and it sure didn't feel like that. It felt like we weren't able to be genuine and still maintain connections with people who were trying to censor what we said with our family and friends. It doesn't feel good.

Amy Malouf [00:55:13] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [00:55:13] But at the same time, I understand. I mean, I've been in that world and I know when I was kind of a true blue Mormon, I'd watch other friends go through this process and I'd think, oh, why are they doing this? Why can't they just shut up? Why can't they just go away? And why are they trying to damage things? So I understand that perspective, but also I understand this perspective now and then, and I don't think anybody has intentions or desires to harm, hurt people, but it's important that we try to help.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] How was it for you, Amy?

Amy Malouf [00:55:50] It felt really ironic that I was living my life with integrity, my life with honesty. I've got nothing to hide. There's no incentive for me to try to brush anything under a rug. And from the very beginning of all these discussions with our stake president, and we said, yeah, well, of course we drink beer and would you like to understand why we drink beer and why we feel justified and why we think this is actually a good thing for us? And he didn't want to know, but we told him anyway because we wanted him to understand and knew that he wouldn't unless we volunteered this information. But it's because of our honesty and transparency and integrity, we're being disciplined by a church we have given our lives to. And it's just ironic. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] What's it like to feel like they're monitoring your posts? Is that.

Jake Malouf [00:56:47] Well, I. Orwellian is what it is. And I think probably both of us have progressed to the point where we don't care as much. And I understand, and I don't want to speak ill of our stake president because I do like it. I mean, as a friend and as a person. We've had some very real shared experiences on big rafting trips and camping and talking and then sitting in council and that type of thing. And I know it's just. It's eating him up to have to do this.

Amy Malouf [00:57:22] He was more upset than we were.

Jake Malouf [00:57:24] Yeah, he's obviously more upset than we are right now. We're like, you know what? We're becoming more comfortable with making people uncomfortable because I think that's how real progress is made in the world.

Amy Malouf [00:57:36] But, yeah, he's a good man. We know his entire family, they know and love us. And this is the only bit of strife we've ever had with any of these people. And it's really not of our making. We're not the ones making these statements. We're just living our lives and trying to embrace truth and being thrown under the bus for it and called, you know, liars and thinks I'm deceived. And that's hurtful. That's a hurtful message for people to share to someone who is feeling full of integrity and honesty and to be told that you're deceived is just a terrible message.

Jake Malouf [00:58:17] Or to be called abusers or wolves

Amy Malouf [00:58:21] in sheep's clothing, that's another good one.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] So how did you get from losing your temple recommend to people saying those names to you? What? Take. Tell us more about the story. So you had that. You had that meeting with your stake president, told him you drank beer and you weren't going to stop. Told him. Yeah, told him that you weren't going to necessarily stop with social media. How did it progress to a disciplinary

Jake Malouf [00:58:42] council were more private conversations with friends who would come up to us or say, hey, you know, let's meet or let's go on. Yeah, let's talk. Let's talk about this. And so.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] So did word get around, you think?

Amy Malouf [00:58:54] Oh, yeah, discussion with lots of people talking to other people. And we'd make a point to show up at ward gatherings, and some people would pull us aside and say, hey, I just want you to know you can do whatever you want. We really love you. And there's a lot of. Well, there's a handful of people that are willing to say that, and that's an awkward conversation to have.

Jake Malouf [00:59:18] But they'd also. At the same time, they'd also say, and just so you know, there's some other people who were talking behind your back, not feeling that, stabbing you in

Amy Malouf [00:59:25] the back, and they think that you're traitors. And in general, the people that were really, really upset wouldn't come to us and tell us to our face. And. Because I think that, I don't know, that can't be a fun conversation. And maybe they're. Maybe they're worried that we might, I don't know, be really nice to them anyway, and then they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Jake Malouf [00:59:46] I don't know, maybe one important story. And, you know, because all of these people would listen to us and, you know, I think they do like us and love us, one Particular experience. This is kind of painful to talk about, but I think it's meaningful is an exchange. We were down in Utah doing some traveling. We had this goal to climb the highest mountain in each state as a family. So we're working on that. So we're just about done, actually. But so we were traveling and we met with. We were with Amy's folks one night and sat down on the back porch for some dinner, and they wanted to say a family prayer before dinner. And we know that's fine. And so Amy's mom started praying, and I think we prayed a little differently now. So we sat quietly, and I just chose to. I think probably all of us were sitting.

Amy Malouf [01:00:40] We've had lots of discussions with our kids of why do you do what you do? And, like, can you pray without your eyes closed? Can you pray without your arms folded? Can you pray upside down? Can you pray while you're driving? Can you. You know, like, let's. Let's not attach the. The intent of prayer to. To certain physical triggers or behaviors or, like, it doesn't matter if you have your eyes closed. Doesn't matter if you anyway matter. So we'd have these kind of conversations.

Jake Malouf [01:01:09] So we chose to just sit there and just kind of think and meditate or whatever. And we had our eyes. Reverently, we had our eyes open, but she stopped shortly into the prayer and just looked up at us and said, could we please have some reverence here? And, oh, boy. And it was just, you know, and it kind of caught us off guard because obviously we were feeling reverent. Pretty. We were feeling reverent. We were feeling good. But apparently she could feel our eyes were open or whatever and didn't felt like we were being.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] How does she know your eyes are open? She has to look.

Amy Malouf [01:01:45] Well, that's what Jake said. He said, you wouldn't have known if our eyes were open had you not opened yours. And I did bring that. She said, in her defense, she said it felt different. And I'm sure you can tell when someone's looking at you. You can feel that across the room.

Jake Malouf [01:01:58] But, I mean, you can feel it.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] You can feel it, yes.

Jake Malouf [01:02:01] But the spirit told back, even though I drink beer from time to time, I can still feel promptings like that. Whatever.

Amy Malouf [01:02:07] I can still feel people looking at me sometimes.

Jake Malouf [01:02:09] But it.

Amy Malouf [01:02:09] So it.

Jake Malouf [01:02:10] It kind of turned into an ugly confrontation because we were attacked. And I said, you know, we are being reverent, and this is how we're choosing to be reverent. And let's Just get on with the prayer. And she. She obviously viewed that as a very confrontational and ugly thing. And then it led to this defensive and aggressive. Led to this discussion that night that really didn't go well. We ended up essentially being kicked out of their home.

Amy Malouf [01:02:39] So she knows we drink. She knows we've been drinking for the last almost two years now, and that's not a new topic. But I had some beer in a cooler that was in her driveway or in her garage because I was trying to get it cold. It was summer there, and she saw it, and.

Amy Malouf [01:02:57] And it was very upsetting to her that I had beer on her property. So I said, well, okay, I'm really sorry. I really didn't mean to offend. And she said, were you gonna drink it here? And I said, no, I wouldn't. No, I was gonna drink it with my friends or my younger sister. I was gonna, no, I'm not gonna drink it here.

Amy Malouf [01:03:14] But I was just trying to get it cold. And. So where would you like me to put it if it can't be in the garage? And she said, well, please. On the street. So, you know, it needed to be in the car on the street. Not in the car in the driveway, but in the car on the street. And it was just silly. But magical powers given to beer in the driveway as opposed to on the street is a huge difference. I guess I didn't know that, so I know that now.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] But this is your mom, right?

Amy Malouf [01:03:42] This is my mom.

Jake Malouf [01:03:43] So it's really tough. This is a woman that we love, and we've never had any issue.

Amy Malouf [01:03:49] I've never had any issues with my mom except for this. And it breaks my heart that it's. And it's just. It's sad and it's unfortunate, and it's unnecessary. And I want it to go away. I want my relationship with my mother back. That's not weird.

Jake Malouf [01:04:08] And I know in their eyes, they're just thinking, well, just come back to the fold. And we can't do that and be honest. But I think it underscores. Kind of. Back to your original question. There's a lot of people who, I think, try to be nice, and I think they believe they are nice, and they're probably sincere in being nice, but they're nice because they want us to know that we love them so we have a happy place to go back to after we change our minds and come to see the light and go back into the church, which I think it's hard for them to accept, but they need to understand that that's just not going to happen.

Jake Malouf [01:04:45] And it's hard when they do come to that realization. And so there's a lot of emotions involved and relationships get damaged. And I think one of our purposes for kind of being public with this and agreeing to go to this disciplinary council is we want, if nothing else, we want to represent who we are to people and maybe help somebody understand us a little bit better.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] Were you going to say something, Amy?

Amy Malouf [01:05:14] Yeah. So I, you know, I think it's hard. We have, you know, we tend to do give our love conditionally. We're supposed to give our love unconditionally, but it's easier to give our love conditionally. You know, I love you because we're in the same. We believe the same thing. I love you because we, you know, whatever, whatever condition you put on it. But then with us saying, you know, we love you and the church just isn't true and we still love you anyway, it's really confusing for a lot of members, especially family members that are having trouble in their minds. They want to do it, but they don't necessarily have the tools or have the practice or some things take time.

Amy Malouf [01:05:58] So I don't quite know how to help facilitate that and help get there. It's hard. It's hard. And the church does more harm than good in the messages they keep sending that people leave because of sin, people leave because of they never had a testimony. These are all reasons they leave. But when people leave because of integrity and because of love, that's really confusing for people. And it's very threatening for members to understand that when they really understand it, because it says they have to ask the question, well, then why am I here and what do I believe? And it's a mess. It's a full on mess that we're in.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] And if somebody said, well, they left because they wanted to drink beer, they left because they were offended because of how the bishop handled the young women. If people made those claims, what would your direct answer be?

Amy Malouf [01:06:50] No, I left because the church claims aren't true. And I chose to drink beer as soon as I put two and two together and realized that all the claims of prophecy and leadership and all those other things were just more signs along the way of, oh, yeah, this is another manifestation that this isn't God's church, that it isn't being led by inspiration.

Jake Malouf [01:07:17] I think I would probably add that

Amy Malouf [01:07:20] it's not the cart before the horse, it's the other way around.

Jake Malouf [01:07:22] And I would add that, yeah, I agree I used to think that way as well, but I've since learned that that represents a very gross misunderstanding of why people are leaving the church and invite them to learn more if they want.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] So for you, Jake, it was what, is it the same as Amy? Or would you say it differently?

Jake Malouf [01:07:42] I think we'd probably say it fairly similar. Like, you know, that's not it. We need to. That's a pretty surface excuse that you're giving and there's a lot more to it than.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] So for you, it was that the church wasn't true for you, that was it.

Amy Malouf [01:07:56] Yeah, that's why, that's the reason. If the church was true, we would stay in it and keep fixing the problems like we'd been fixing for the past 15, 20 years. And, you know, we're happy to do that. And we were happy to do that until we discovered that it just wasn't true. And then it changed everything for us.

Jake Malouf [01:08:14] And it's, and it's one thing to say, well, the church is this great social, social network community of believers who are like minded or out trying to do good in the world, that's one thing. But when the church makes claims that this is God's one true church, this is the only way. And eventually you need to accept this or you will be stunted in your eternal progression or you're going to have these bad consequences, that's a very deleterious message.

Jake Malouf [01:08:41] And we're not the only church that makes that claim. That's the other thing that I learned. There's, there's dozens of churches that claim to be God's one true church. And so it's important to, I think, look at all those different issues. And when those claims are made, they can be very damaging when people believe those and then get mixed messages. And that's, you know, that's why people are killing themselves or people are suffering in silence.

Jake Malouf [01:09:11] The only thing that has kept me maybe somewhat vocal on Facebook with some of this stuff is I've had dozens and dozens of people reach out to me privately. People that I haven't been in Contact with for 20 years. Mission companions, friends from high school who are saying, hey, I can't tell you how much this means to me, Jake.

Jake Malouf [01:09:30] I think that way too. But I can't say anything because I'm so wrapped up with my business or my family or my community that the stakes are too high. And we're fortunate that we're able to go through this together. Our kids are on board with us, we have a strong social network. Outside of the church up here, our community and our jobs are not tied directly to our church membership. So, yeah, it hurts. It stinks. And we've severed some relationships that were otherwise very good. But I think we're willing to take one for the team because I feel like we're helping more than we're hurting.

The Letter and the Disciplinary Council

John Dehlin [01:10:07] So how did you go from difficult conversations with leadership and the gossip mill to a letter informing you about the disciplinary council?

Jake Malouf [01:10:18] We were on a hunting trip up.

Amy Malouf [01:10:20] We were gonna get caribou, and we got a. Jake got a text.

Jake Malouf [01:10:23] Well, we were off a text.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] When was this?

Jake Malouf [01:10:26] This was last week. We were up hunting last Wednesday. Well, it was a long weekend. And then. So we were off the grid. But once we got back onto the grid, of course, phones start dinging. And one of the texts was, stake president saying, hey, we need to talk. Can we do it tonight? Of course, it was after the fact. So we sent him back and say, hey, we'll be cutting up a caribou tonight. You're welcome to come talk with us if you want. He said, well, we'll do it another time. So the next day he sent us a text and said, let's meet. And we called us and he actually asked us point blank, why don't you just resign?

John Dehlin [01:11:00] Of course, that's kind of overstart.

Amy Malouf [01:11:02] I was hoping that we would.

John Dehlin [01:11:03] I think there's a manual, because they always start that way.

Amy Malouf [01:11:06] Would you please just go away?

Jake Malouf [01:11:07] Yeah. And he said, why don't you? And I said, well, to be honest, there's a couple reasons. One, I like having access to the phone numbers and email lists. That's kind of handy. But really, I welcome the audience. I'm happy to stand before these people. And we've been in this particular stake for 10 years, in this ward for 10 years. And we've worked with these people for 10 years. And I want.

Amy Malouf [01:11:33] They know us, we know that we want to be in control of the message.

Jake Malouf [01:11:37] And I feel like right now there's a lot of people who are just mad at us and don't understand some of the reasons. And so this is a forum for us to give our reasons and the outcome is a foregone conclusion. I think he told us that verbatim.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] What'd he say?

Jake Malouf [01:11:52] He said, this court, it's the Disciplinary Council, it's not a conventional court where there's a prosecution and a defense. It's, you know, different, run differently. And very much alluded to the fact that the result is all but already made. And we're going into that with that understanding.

Amy Malouf [01:12:14] Yeah. And one of the. So we recorded the conversation with him the other night, and just in case. You never know what is going to come out. But I think one of the kind of the seal of the deal for me was I said I. Because it was my. I'm pretty proud of this. It was my Facebook post that got the. That elicited the phone, the text. It was Jake's comment within it.

John Dehlin [01:12:37] But what was the post about?

Jake Malouf [01:12:41] It was the post on suicides on lgbtq.

Amy Malouf [01:12:43] Yeah. It said, hey, the church can fix this issue. All they have to do is change the policy. Unless, you know, and people will stop killing themselves. Wouldn't that be nice? How easy would that be?

Jake Malouf [01:12:53] Of course, it's not that simple, but.

Amy Malouf [01:12:54] Yeah, but it is that simple. They can just change it. They can. They have the power to change it. And I get it why they don't. Because it was from God, and now they have to say it wasn't from God. So that's a mess. But that's their mess. And, you know, it's just a. This would be good. I think they should change it. And I said, I'd like to help you understand the reason I post. It's not because I know that my audience really wants to hear it. It's because not. You know, my sister's really upset about this. I know you're upset about this. There's lots of, you know, some of my previous young women are really upset about this, and it's really not for them or you that I'm posting.

Amy Malouf [01:13:32] It's for the few people that are watching and listening that are marginalized. It's for the LGBT youth that are within our stake, within the view of my screen, you know, of this post, that can say, oh, Sister Malouf thinks this policy is wrong.

Amy Malouf [01:13:52] Maybe there's something to that. Maybe there's hope for me. And I said, that's why I post. It's not to make anyone mad. It's for the few that it might help. And I don't know who it's helping, but I have hope that even if it's just one, that's worth it. And, yeah, his response to that was, well, a lot of people feel the same way you feel, and a lot of people disagree with this, and they're quiet about it.

Amy Malouf [01:14:18] And I said, so I call that apathy. And that's just not okay for me. And I won't do it, and I refuse to do it. And I'm going to continue to post because that's just terrible advice. And he changed the subject after that.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] That's exactly what they said to me. They said, you can think it, just don't talk about it. Just stay quiet.

Amy Malouf [01:14:38] Just be quiet. Just be quiet. That's how we're going to heal the world and create peace. Is bunch of people being quiet with tyrants.

Jake Malouf [01:14:44] Yeah. The counsel is, Listen to me. Obey my counsel and you'll be okay. And even if it goes against your conscience, you'll be blessed. You'll be blessed. And those, those. That's. I was like, that's the best you got? That's your best advice for us? Because that's not good enough.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] And what was your comment that got you in trouble, Jake? On her. On Amy's post?

Jake Malouf [01:15:05] Oh, you know, all it was, it was the comment that he cited verbatim was a statement that I made that we have. We haven't been to church or we no longer affiliate ourselves with the LDS Church as of February 2016. And it was just that statement. And that was it.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] Wow.

Jake Malouf [01:15:30] Yeah. It doesn't take much. We didn't have to write a book.

John Dehlin [01:15:33] They are lowering the bar.

Amy Malouf [01:15:35] Yeah, I know. It's easy peasy.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] So did he say what the actual charge was?

Amy Malouf [01:15:42] Apostasy.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] Okay. And did he, did he list. So you've already told us what he listed as evidence for that.

Jake Malouf [01:15:51] Well, I'm kind of curious what he does list. I guess we'll find out in the court. The only, the only evidence he has cited thus far are our Facebook posts and the Facebook posts that appear that we are not in support of the

John Dehlin [01:16:06] corporate church and specifically the one not supporting the church's November policy.

Jake Malouf [01:16:12] That was November policy statements that I have no reason to believe that the church is led by prophets because I haven't seen any real prophecy. And then the statement that we no longer affiliate with the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:16:25] And was there a dialogue with him where he tried to tell you that all the Quorum of the twelve or prophets that. And revelators, that sort of thing?

Jake Malouf [01:16:32] Yeah, he. Well, I think not this last visit, but lots of previous ones. He would close by sharing his testimony and belief.

John Dehlin [01:16:43] Okay, so you have decided to go ahead and attend your disciplinary councils.

Amy Malouf [01:16:48] So we have a joint.

Jake Malouf [01:16:50] We'll show up together joint council.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] So at least, Amy, you don't have to do the degrading three person bishopric thing. Well, he gets the full 15, right?

Amy Malouf [01:16:58] Yeah. I pointed out to him that that was rude to give Jake 12 people that listen to him. 15 people that listen to him and give him four that listen to me. I just said, that's just rude. I would like more people to listen to me if it's just rude.

John Dehlin [01:17:12] So it's going to be his and her disciplinary council at the same time. It's a twofer.

Jake Malouf [01:17:17] What's also interesting is probably important with our children, their ages 11 and 14, all this. This whole transition, all this stuff. We've been very open with our kids.

Amy Malouf [01:17:28] They're so sick of talking about the church.

Jake Malouf [01:17:30] Yeah, they're probably sick.

John Dehlin [01:17:30] Mine too. Mine, too.

Jake Malouf [01:17:31] Yeah, they're exhausted. But, you know, we have made it a very deliberate point to allow them to do what they want and to choose and, you know, kind of give them an objective viewpoint from both sides, and they're very much happy to be out of the church as well. In fact, both of them independently came up to us after the. They learned about the pending council and said, hey, can I. Can I say some stuff? Can I write some things down that you can read? And, like, we let them know that we don't want in anymore either. And so it's.

Amy Malouf [01:18:04] They want the family.

Jake Malouf [01:18:05] It's our whole family. It's a package deal.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] Will you guys be bringing witnesses at all?

Amy Malouf [01:18:11] I don't think so.

Jake Malouf [01:18:12] Probably. We haven't thought about it.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] Okay.

Jake Malouf [01:18:14] We mostly just have a statement we want to read, and that's it.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] Did you'll both read a statement?

Jake Malouf [01:18:19] Yeah.

Amy Malouf [01:18:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:20] Okay. Okay.

Jake Malouf [01:18:22] I know. We maybe should bring in witnesses. What do you think?

Amy Malouf [01:18:24] Yeah. What do you. What did they witness? That were rad people.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] You know what I mean? I had. I had my father. What was that?

Amy Malouf [01:18:32] We could bring our cat. He loves us.

John Dehlin [01:18:34] I saw your cat.

Amy Malouf [01:18:35] He was cute.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] Beautiful cat. I. You know, I brought my dad and my mom, my brother, a war, a fellow ward member. Really sweet guy. And then Bill Bradshaw, who's my research partner on my LGBT research, all of them cried. All of them gave heartfelt testimonies, and none of it mattered. So it was really heartbreaking because they just kind of stared at the wall. There's this psychological thing where they can't really humanize you because it'd be too painful for them to sort of admit to themselves what they're doing is so barbaric and unkind. And so what they have to do is sort of depersonalize. You stare at the wall, look off in the corner, not make eye contact, and really tune out.

John Dehlin [01:19:22] And so for us, it was really hard that we were all pouring our hearts out, being really authentic, and they were just kind of, like, doing this, you Know, kind of looking around. So I don't know. I don't know what to say, but I had it in my mind that maybe it was sort of an Abinadi moment where maybe there was an Alma, you know, in the.

Amy Malouf [01:19:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] Amongst the 15. And so far, Alma hasn't emerged, but I. I just felt like maybe I would touch somebody, you know?

Jake Malouf [01:19:51] Yeah. You never know.

Amy Malouf [01:19:52] And that. And that's kind of the whole point of us going to this. Otherwise, the decision's been made.

Jake Malouf [01:19:59] I do know that there are at least a couple people on the High Council whose shelves are pretty full.

John Dehlin [01:20:04] Oh, wow. So that'll be interesting.

Jake Malouf [01:20:07] It'll be interesting to see. Yeah.

Amy Malouf [01:20:09] Yeah.

Reflections on Excommunication and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [01:20:10] Okay. All right. So. So here's a. Here's a bit of a tougher question, and I don't. I don't offer it to scare you in any way, but just, you know, just we're being real here. I think I underestimated.

John Dehlin [01:20:24] I'm glad. I'm. I'm, to this day, glad we did it. I think it was the right thing to do for us. I don't think it's something that's necessarily right for everybody, but it was a really dark experience for me. Well, it was both. It was validating.

John Dehlin [01:20:41] It was dark because we were treated so impersonally and so inhumanely after giving decades of our life to this church and loving it with our full heart. So to be treated and dismissed so impersonally. They actually said to me, you're on trial here, not us. You will not ask us any questions. If you ask us any questions, we won't answer them. They read from a script the whole time. It was just completely corporate and legalistic and robotic. It has to be how the scribes and whatever, the Sadducees of the Pharisees were, because it was just so corporate and impersonal. So on the one hand, that was really alarming and disturbing and.

John Dehlin [01:21:21] And my wife was just so impacted by it, she resigned the very next day. But it was also. It was also validating in the sense that it was so. Christ was so obviously absent from the whole proceeding that it actually reaffirmed my decision and actually made me feel better about leaving the church because I loved the church and I didn't. It was hard for me to leave it. I. I felt torn and tied to it.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] But the real question I'm asking you here is it was hard on the kids. Now, admittedly, we live in Cache Valley, where it's very conservative, very devout, but even so, this is their friendships. This is their families, this is their community.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] And I can't say it was easy for them. And so how have you thought through the fact that you may feel good about this, you may be doing it for a cause, but that there also may be some, some real sadness or pain or difficulty not only for you, but for your children? How have you thought about that as you've made this decision?

Amy Malouf [01:22:25] Yeah, that's been, I guess, in the forefront of my mind with at first it was I'll try to stay in for the kids. I loved what I grew up in, in Mormonism. I loved lots of things. I loved all my friends, there were things I just loved. And then when I realized it was causing harm to my children in very real ways, when I realized my children were experiencing guilt for things that no child should feel guilt for. You know, we have really great kids. My kids are more responsible than I am half the time. And realizing that the church had already caused them psychological damage and that it was only going to get worse, their shelves were going to get heavier, as heavy as mine.

Amy Malouf [01:23:12] If I can spare that psychological damage from my children. The mother bear instinct in me kicked in like in overdrive when I realized that the loss that they would experience the longer they stayed in the delusion meant the guilt, the false hopes placed in things that just don't hold water.

Amy Malouf [01:23:34] Those things are real and I don't want them for my children. I want my children to have as much joy and as much peace and as much hope as they can have in their lives. And the church wasn't going to do anything in giving them those things better than living a life outside of the church could.

Amy Malouf [01:23:53] They can make decisions, they can be responsible for their own choices, they can think about issues without having, well, what does the church say in the back of their mind all the time? And when it. There was a distinct point in a conversation I was having with my 14 year old daughter when we were talking about grace and I realized she was experiencing guilt during the sacrament and not that feeling of grace and hope. And that wasn't a thing I taught her, that was a thing she had learned at church. And it just made me so sad and angry at the teachings and the doctrines that are false and the ways we teach things that just aren't right.

Amy Malouf [01:24:31] And realizing that this is my daughter who I love and she's been harmed and I will do everything in my power to protect her. And so it was a, you know, there's going to be some costs, there's going to be some fallout, but These are my kids and I'm going to protect them. And it's ironic that I'm protecting them from the church, but right now that's the aggressor. And it's a subtle aggressor and it's sugar coated aggressor, but nonetheless it causes damage.

Amy Malouf [01:24:59] We don't have a lot, our kids don't have a lot of friends in the church right now just because the demographics of our ward. You know, our son had one close friend, two close friends, and our daughter really didn't have any in our ward. She had people that she liked, she had people that were her same age, but she didn't have people that she would call up and hang out and go skiing with and get excited about going to do stuff with. So there's, there's really no loss there. There's one friend in a different ward that she's close with, but their friendship wasn't based on church anyway. So really no loss with our kids. I feel very fortunate that we haven't had that kind of baggage holding us back.

John Dehlin [01:25:38] So, Amy, for you, why a disciplinary council instead of just resigning and going away quietly? And then I'll ask Jake, you the same thing.

Amy Malouf [01:25:47] Because I think it's barbaric and I think it has no bearing on my spirituality and my life path. But what I think that is important is these people that are willing to hold this disciplinary council, they think it does hold water. They think that they're stripping me of my blessings because I'm, you know, because of my choices. They are willing to inflict a consequence that they think is quite terrible. And I think that's barbaric that they're willing to do that. They're actually not doing it in my belief, but in their belief they are. And I think that that should be talked about and seen for what it is. These people are willing to. It's just barbaric. And I think that should be exposed.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] So you want to shine a light on it?

Amy Malouf [01:26:36] Yeah, I think it's terrible. And they're willing to do it unabashedly. And the fact that they couldn't look at you while they were doing it, that's some serious cognitive dissonance for them. And they've got a. That's. I want that on their shoulders and I want them to realize that this is, you know, this is, this is the ball's in their court and do what they want. But I'm not just going to take the easy road. It would be so easy for them if I Just went away. And like I said, I want to make it easy for them because I want them to own up to what they're living and what they're teaching.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] Beautiful. All right, Jake, how about you?

Jake Malouf [01:27:09] Well, you kind of stole my thunder because I was going to use this. I was going to say it.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] Say it anyway.

Jake Malouf [01:27:14] Shine a light. Yeah, I think these things need to be exposed and talked about at perhaps a more visible level. And like Amy said, we're fortunate that the fallout from this is perhaps less than it will be for some people.

Jake Malouf [01:27:33] And I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that. It can be extremely difficult for people. And we have close, close friends who are going through this similar thing whose spouse is still in or their children are still in. And my heart goes out to them because there's a lot more baggage with that.

Jake Malouf [01:27:54] We're very blessed to be in this together. We've got, you know, other community affiliations. We're on the National Ski Patrol where we've got purpose and drive to give service in community with people that would. These people on the ski patrol, I'll tell you what, they have our back more than anybody in the church ever did. And that might be hard for people listening to this who are in the church right now to hear, but there's some real genuine people out there in the world that I'm really excited to become a client better acquainted with and join the global community to promote peace and prosperity and move on.

Jake Malouf [01:28:32] And so, yeah, I do want to shine a light on this concept of excommunication and this notion that doing so strips you of all your eternal well being and salvation, because it doesn't. And I want to go into that with my head held high and let them know that we're okay. And. And we still love them. You know, if we meet them on the street, we'll say hi. They're welcome into our home anytime. And I need them to know that. And that's why.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] Beautiful. Okay, so what's the date?

Jake Malouf [01:29:06] October 11, 7pm it's my brother's birthday.

Amy Malouf [01:29:11] Sorry, brother.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] Okay, so what's the date today? September 27th. Okay, so we're talking about 14 days, two weeks, basically. Yeah. Is that right?

Amy Malouf [01:29:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:24] And what, what are you guys Pacific

Jake Malouf [01:29:27] time or are you at our own time zone? Alaska.

John Dehlin [01:29:31] Okay, so like an hour, two hours. Two hours earlier than California, then one

Jake Malouf [01:29:37] hour from California, two hours.

John Dehlin [01:29:39] Okay. Okay, got it. Okay, so those of us in Utah, it looks like 9pm on October 11th. Is that right?

Amy Malouf [01:29:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:50] If people want to Send good wishes or whatever. Is there anything we can do to show support or to help?

Jake Malouf [01:30:00] This is meaningful to us. It's actually, after listening to your stuff for a couple years, it's nice to be able to get a voice on there and have our story recorded, because I think it's something that our family and friends and other people can have as a resource. So this helps. This is it. I think after the council, you know, whatever that result is, I think we know what it'll be. I wouldn't mind having the chance to read the statement that we've written.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] You guys want to come back on and tell us what happened?

Jake Malouf [01:30:31] Yeah, yeah, if you're willing.

Amy Malouf [01:30:33] That'd be fun.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] Okay. Plan on.

Amy Malouf [01:30:35] Yeah. So I talked to. You know, I've debated on how public I want to be with this beforehand, and especially locally. I've talked with. We have two local newspapers. One's kind of an artistic underground one, and one's. One's more than just the mainstream newspaper. And both have expressed interest on covering this story. I don't plan on holding anything beforehand, but after the fact, once we've got the, you know, once things kind of shake out, I think it's just good for people to know that this happens to people that have put everything into a church, and I'd like it exposed. It feels like I'm breaking up with a boyfriend that didn't even know we were dating. That's what it feels like. It's hard. Yeah. But better than keep on dating the boyfriend that didn't know we were dating. That'd be worse.

Jake Malouf [01:31:33] So maybe. Yeah, let's just stay in touch and that'd be great.

John Dehlin [01:31:38] Beautiful. Well, you guys are a wonderfully thoughtful and courageous couple. It's really a delight to meet you. I hope we can. You guys ever in Utah? Do you ever come to Cache Valley?

Amy Malouf [01:31:49] Yeah, yeah. I'll actually be in Utah on the 4th. We're going down to Moab to go biking. So I'll be in Utah. Be on Moab next week.

Jake Malouf [01:31:57] She's going with her girlfriend.

Amy Malouf [01:31:59] I'm going with my girlfriend and her girlfriend. It's a girls trip.

John Dehlin [01:32:02] Well, reach out when you're in Cache Valley. I'd love to see you guys when you're there.

Jake Malouf [01:32:05] Yeah, yeah. We're in Logan at least once a year.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] Beautiful.

Jake Malouf [01:32:08] Yeah, that'd be great to meet up.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] All right. Amy and Jake Maloof, lovely, thoughtful, courageous couple set to be excommunicated October 11th at 9:00pm Utah time. We wish you guys luck. Our. Our thoughts and good wishes are with you. Please let us know if we can help with anything. And we're thankful for your story and we very much look forward to bringing you back on soon to tell us all the wonderful and gory details of the day of your special day.

Jake Malouf [01:32:42] Awesome.

Amy Malouf [01:32:42] It'll be so special.

Jake Malouf [01:32:44] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] All right, guys, you guys take care. And listeners, thanks for joining us on Mormon stories. If you want to ask Jake or Amy any questions, you can go up there and comment. They'll hopefully read and respond to respectful comments there. Anyone who supports Mormon stories, just know you make this possible. If any of you are able to support us financially, just know that your money is tax deductible and it goes to making all this possible. We rely on your support. So again, thanks again. Thanks again guys. You guys are awesome and let's talk soon. Good luck.

Jake Malouf [01:33:18] Great.

Amy Malouf [01:33:18] Thanks, John.

Jake Malouf [01:33:19] I think I'll finally make a donation.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] Okay, that's great. Thanks. Thanks you guys take care.

Jake Malouf [01:33:24] All right. Thanks, John.

Amy Malouf [01:33:25] Take care of.

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