Welcome and Introduction to Alex Autry

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 1, 2017, and we are very, very excited and honored to be able to continue our series on the transgender experience or transgender experiences within Mormonism and post Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] We've already interviewed Kimberly Anderson. She has been amazing. We also did a panel with four transgender individuals last week, and we're going to continue that this week with my interview with Alex and then tomorrow with my interview with London.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] So I'm just really thrilled, so happy to be doing this live. We've got 32 people joined us so far on Facebook Live. We want to welcome you all and invite those of you joining us live to feel free to share your comments and questions, and we'll try and get to those as we can throughout the show. I'll just by way of introducing Alex. Alex, you are 16, is that right?

Alex Autry [00:01:37] That's correct.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] I met Alex and his wonderful parents when I went to Kansas City to visit the Kansas City Oasis. Alex and his parents were attending the Kansas City Oasis, and I learned of Alex's story, which involves not only their transition out of Mormonism, but also Alex's transition. He was assigned, I guess I'll say. My understanding is Alex was assigned the female gender at birth, but then during his teen years, he transitioned genders from male to. Sorry, from female to male. And today we're going to be talking about not only his family's transition out of the church, but what his experience as a trans man has been and specifically what it's like to go through that transition as a teen and as a transitioning Mormon, post Mormon teen. So lots of transitions going on.

Alex Autry [00:02:35] That's right. It gets a little complicated. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] Alex Autry, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Alex Autry [00:02:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] So it's such an honor to have you.

Alex Autry [00:02:44] Thank you. It's good to be here.

Experiencing Gender Identity as a Young Child

John Dehlin [00:02:46] So just to begin, we'll jump right to it. One of the questions that's most often asked is how did you experience your gender as a child, as a young child? What are your earliest memories of your experience in that regard?

Alex Autry [00:03:03] I have several really early ones, probably from three or four years old. One of the clearest, like gender, I want to say, probably one of my earliest recollections of gender dysphoria, as probably had when I was three or four. And it really, it's funny how closely it ties to the Mormon church.

Alex Autry [00:03:24] My dad got home, we got home from church and my dad had taken off his tie and picked up a tie and put it around my neck. And I walked in the kitchen and I said, dad, will you teach me how to tie this? And he, you know, really, really kindly, you know, squatted down next to me and put his hand on my shoulder and said, you. You don't need. You don't need to learn how to tie a tie. You know, little. Little girls go to church in dresses. You know, you don't wear a suit and tie. And. And he walked away. You know, didn't think anything of it, but I walked out of the room sobbing.

Alex Autry [00:03:55] And I didn't know why. And I mean, now it makes sense. And. But I really had incredibly strong emotional ties to gender already and the very strong gender lines in the church about what you wear to church.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Right. So. And that was. You said at age. Which age?

Alex Autry [00:04:15] 3 or 4. Not quite sure. Young, though.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] Okay. And so were your. Just to talk quickly about your Mormon background, were your parents pioneer stock? Were they converts to the church? Were you born in the covenant?

Alex Autry [00:04:33] My parents were. Both joined the church as teens, so they've been. They were lifelong members when I joined as teens. Yes, they did there in Missouri. My. Both of them joined in southeast Texas.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Okay, okay. But then they. They got married. And do you have siblings?

Alex Autry [00:04:55] Yes, both of my parents were married before they were married to each other, so I'm one of eight, actually.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Got it. Okay, great. So do you remember. What else can you talk about? Let's just say from age 3 to age 12, how kind of how that. That experience, how that development, sort of how you experienced it, and what was going on for you internally as you were. As you were sort of growing up with the assigned gender of female, but maybe feeling differently inside. What. What was that process? Take us through that process there.

Alex Autry [00:05:36] Okay. So starting at age 3 or 4, that sort of, you know, always having a desire to wear masculine clothing, never wanting to wear feminine clothing, still wearing a dress every Sunday to church, and so developing really, really negative feelings toward the church in that respect. In that I was super uncomfortable every time I went because I was having to wear a dress and I wanted to wear a suit and tie. As I got older, that only increased as I could tell that even in primary and then in young women's. How much other women in the church, other young women in the church were really kind of growing into their roles and really, really learning to take on and accept responsibility as female members of the church.

Alex Autry [00:06:24] And I was also taking on those responsibilities, but totally feeling disconnected from it. You know, even before I was 12, I was seeing the boys in My branch preparing to receive the priesthood, and that is all I wanted to do that point in time was be with them, getting ready for that and knowing that that would never happen. I had a lot of. Yeah, a lot of disconnect with clothing and with. Obviously with pronouns and that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] And did you have any way of understanding that as a, you know, young. As a young child or even as a young teen, had you read about, you know, transgender issues? Did you. Were you able to put a vocabulary to it, or was it just this cognitive dissonance that you didn't fully understand?

Alex Autry [00:07:18] No, I didn't. I probably didn't hear the word or understand the word transgender or gender dysphoria like that until I was probably 13, I imagine.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] Okay. And had you ever, like, had that conversation with your parents or with leaders? Like, I feel there's something. I feel like a mistake is. You know, I feel like something is. It hasn't gone right. What. You know, early in those years. Let's say by 12, would you have expressed it that way or would you have not expressed it that way?

Alex Autry [00:07:49] No, the only. The only time we talked about it is when I was a stereotypical tomboy, and I was trying to be steered away from that, but there was no. You know, I wanted. I wanted. I very much wanted to be comfortable living as a female because I felt a really strong responsibility in the church to carry out feminine roles, and I definitely did not want to express to anyone that I felt anything wrong with that.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] Okay, so you. In your mind, you just. You just were trying to do the female thing, but inside feeling torn, wanting to do the male thing. Is that. Is that fair to say?

Alex Autry [00:08:24] That's a great. That's a great way to put it.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Okay. Okay, great. And you had. By 12, you wouldn't have said. You wouldn't have had your finger on what the issue might be?

Alex Autry [00:08:33] No, I definitely. I definitely felt very masculine and can remember thinking, wow, I really do not feel very much like a girl. But there was no. I'm a boy. Like, that didn't go through my mind at that age.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Would you have been. So when you talk about stereotypical tomboy stuff, would you have been, like, really into sports and, like, super, super strong or talented or aggressive as a, you know, expressing as a female, young kid playing sports, were you really into it?

Alex Autry [00:09:04] Oh, yeah, definitely. Let's. Let's go outside and roll in the mud and throw a football and, you know, definitely very, very masculine in my. My choices like that.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Would your. Would you.

Alex Autry [00:09:15] Would.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Did you get any feedback from peers, let's just say your playmates, your friends. It's, you know, bullying or negativity or just judgment or celebration. Like what. How did your peers experience you as a, as a, as a child and as a young teen?

Alex Autry [00:09:33] Truthfully, I don't think they really thought much of it because I had been expressing that way as long as anyone, as long as anyone knew me. And also I've been a nerd for a really long time, so it was already a little bit weird to them. So that wasn't just another layer. They didn't really think much of it or say much to me about it.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] So you didn't feel, did you feel ostracized by your friends? Did you feel totally accepted?

Alex Autry [00:09:57] No, there wasn't. No, I did not feel ostracized. I feel very connected and very accepted and even did then feel pretty accepted.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] Okay, and that's both in the church and outside?

Alex Autry [00:10:09] Yes, because I acted differently in school than I did in church.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] How were you different?

Alex Autry [00:10:15] I was very. I tried very, very hard to be, you know, proper, the proper little lady in church, but I relaxed it a little bit in school really pretty well, did my own thing within societal boundaries.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] Okay, did you. Did you feel like, let's say at age 12, you had a relationship with Heavenly Father? Did you would. Did this ever enter into your prayers? Was this a thing between you and Heavenly Father? And if so, how.

Alex Autry [00:10:46] No, it really, it really wasn't because I don't think I wanted to talk about it with anyone. Not even, not even to him? No. And. And I will say that I had one of the strongest testimonies of any 12 year old that I have that I've ever met. That was a huge, huge deal to me. And no, that never, that never came up in prayer or anything. I did not want to talk about it.

A Strong Mormon Testimony and Early Doubts

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Okay, so you would have thought of yourself as having a very strong, traditional, orthodox testimony?

Alex Autry [00:11:15] Yes, yes, very strong.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] You were a believer in all in. What was your testimony based on? What would you say it was based on?

Alex Autry [00:11:23] It was, I don't know, everything. Just firm belief in the gospel. Seeing how the church had impacted people in my lives, my parents had been members for so long and a lot of my family, a lot of my family members. So it was a lot of a traditional thing. But also I had a lot of spiritual feelings. I read, read the book as Mormon as much as possible. Had a lot of friends who were also very, very faithful and active. And we talked about that and encouraged each other in that way.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] Okay, so for you, the church was very much tied to your identity.

Alex Autry [00:12:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] And your worldview.

Alex Autry [00:12:02] I was very, very proud to be a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Okay, so when did things start unraveling, let's just say, in terms of the church? Because as I understand it, things unraveled in the church before the. Before your transition, gender wise, or did they happen in parallel?

Alex Autry [00:12:29] I didn't start transitioning. I didn't come out until after I'd left the church. But I definitely think I knew I was transgender before we left the church.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] Okay, so talk about, like, your awakening. Let's just say your transgender awakening, and then how. How that fit in to the church as it progressed or didn't or didn't fit in.

Alex Autry [00:12:53] Right. I think social media is amazing. The Internet is amazing, and it. For. For me and for so many other people with queer identities, I know that being able to connect with other LGBT people online has been such. Such a part of their transition, and they're coming out. And for me, that's where I, you know, first saw the word transgender and learned about gender dysphoria. And so somewhere around age 13, I really developed that transgender identity, really felt this out.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Do you remember, like, what you saw and what the. What happened in your mind? Like, do you remember that moment? You sort of, like, connected and what you were watching and what. What.

Alex Autry [00:13:32] Yeah, I was reading. I don't remember where I was reading, but I was reading an article about. About transgender people, and they had some terminology at the beginning of the article and, like, defined gender dysphoria as feeling discomfort with the gender you're assigned at birth. And it was just that moment of, that's me. I feel that every day of my life. That's. Other people feel can feel that too. And that was really, you know, an aha. Moment of, okay, this just isn't feeling weird. This is a very real thing that people experience.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] Okay, and so you immediately associated that with yourself. Yeah.

Alex Autry [00:14:11] Very instant.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] And then how did you square that with your beliefs? And how did you. Did it scare you? How did you do that reconciliation?

Alex Autry [00:14:22] It was. It was very scary because I was then split into two parts. One part of me who still wanted to try and grow up and marry, return missionary and have a family and be the very stereotypical Mormon. And the other half of me that says, no, you're. You're transgender. That. The rational part of me that says, you're never going to be happy like that. And so it was a very definite war of, you know, trying to act female while very well Knowing that I was male.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] And so did it. How did it start coming out? Did you internalize the distress? Did it. Did you start talking to people? How did you cope with it? How did you cope with it?

Alex Autry [00:15:05] And I didn't talk with. I talked to several people online, but no one in my actual, like, everyday. Everyday life. Everything in my real world life was very internalized. I didn't talk to anyone about it.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Wow. So. So how long did you keep it inside?

Alex Autry [00:15:28] Probably at least. At least a year and a half once I knew that I was transgender. Probably at least a year and a half, maybe two years.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] I just can't imagine keeping that inside for so long.

Alex Autry [00:15:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Was that. What was that like to hold that inside?

Alex Autry [00:15:43] Very stressful because, you know, I was constantly walking on eggshells and being very careful of what I said and what I did and don't get too comfortable and, you know, being very, very, very careful of how I felt and how I expressed emotion and that kind of thing, and trying to make myself more comfortable and appear more outwardly masculine while still appearing feminine enough that nobody would question me or ask me about it.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Yeah, that's just a lot for one. One kid to carry. Right.

Alex Autry [00:16:17] So much.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] What kept you from being able to just tell your parents immediately?

Alex Autry [00:16:22] Because at the time I realized I was transgender, they were still faithful Mormons. And I hate to. I mean, I really don't like throwing people under the bus, but I'm going to. My dad was very homophobic when I was growing up. Very, like, very homophobic. And that was very scary and very worrisome. And so when I realized I was lgbt, you know, of course, now how am I going to tell Dad? I wasn't so sure about mom, but how am I going to tell dad? So in that sense, it was very easy to keep it in, just out of being afraid.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] Right. So what types of messages did you get from the church? Like, do you remember lessons being taught or things being said, you know, at that age that made you feel better or worse about what you were going through in addition to your father's position?

Alex Autry [00:17:24] I don't remember exactly. Exactly when this all happened, as far as a timeline, whether this. I mean, it happened several years before I realized I was trans. But the church's involvement with Prop 8 in California really alarmed me, even before I realized I had a queer identity.

Alex Autry [00:17:43] And so once I realized I was trans, you know, I could easily remember back to that and remember that, you know, this is not. This is probably not going to be a very safe place to be. If I come out, this is not going to be very welcoming. I don't. I don't feel. And so that was very worrisome. And of course, you know, all the, you know, marriages between a man and a woman, that was very alarming. And while that has nothing to do.

Alex Autry [00:18:04] Well, homosexuality really has nothing to do with being trans society all kind of lumps it together under lgbt. And if you're one, they're going to accept it as also right.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] So do you remember feeling like the church had a position on these types of issues?

Alex Autry [00:18:23] Oh, very much so, yes. I think reading the family proclamation of the world is very clear in that gender is eternal, and before you were born, your gender was decided, and when you die, your gender will be the same. And I could tell that, you know, from personal experience, I did not feel that was true. And so, you know, to read that and have that being taught as something that was true was. Was frightening because I disagreed.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Yeah. Okay. Do you remember the proclamation on the family being read, and did that hit you in any way?

Alex Autry [00:19:06] No. I was very good about reading lots of different types of material in the church, so I'd read it several times, but there was never one time where I was a realization of, oh, this is in here. But it was always in the back of my mind.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] Okay, so what caused you to. I mean, who did you. Okay, so you had some allies online, but you hadn't come out to your parents. Who is the first person in sort of your real life that you came out to in your family or friend circle or church wise?

Alex Autry [00:19:44] I have kind of an interesting story with coming out. I came out twice. I came out as. As lesbian first, because at the time that I came out, I felt that identity fit me best because I hadn't really started coming to terms with my transgender identity. I knew. I knew I was transgender, but I did not feel comfortable saying that word aloud or vocalizing that part of me. I felt that it would be more accepted if I came out as gay, since I am attracted to females. So that's what happened first.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] What age did you come out as? Lesbian?

Alex Autry [00:20:25] I would say 13. 13 or 14. I would say 13.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] And how'd you do that if your dad was so homophobic? Like, how did it happen?

Alex Autry [00:20:34] I only. Well, I came out to my best friend first.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] Okay, Mormon. Mormon friend or not Mormon friend?

Alex Autry [00:20:40] No, not Mormon friend. Just a school friend, I want to say. Summer of 2013.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] Okay.

Alex Autry [00:20:44] Came out to them, and they were the only one that knew for quite a while, for several months. And then In January of 2014, my family left the church and rapidly had some position changes as far as how they believed on social issues. Really a 180 on a lot of things happened very quickly. And so In March of 2014, I came out to both of my parents as gay. And then.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] Okay, so your parents leaving Mormonism made you feel comfortable coming out to them?

Alex Autry [00:21:19] Oh, it was a relief. It was a complete relief.

John Dehlin [00:21:22] Oh, wow. Okay.

Alex Autry [00:21:23] It was, I mean, it was incredibly, for me, it was incredibly traumatic leaving the church, but also incredibly relieving in that we now have, we are now are free of this religion, telling my parents how to believe about homosexuality and LGBT issues. So, you know, they're more open and accepting now.

Losing Faith and Coming Out to Family

John Dehlin [00:21:42] So by the time you were ready to come out as, as gay to your parents, had you lost your faith inside?

Alex Autry [00:21:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] So you lost your faith independent of your parents, or did it kind of happen?

Alex Autry [00:21:59] It all kind of happened pretty, pretty quickly. I questioned, I started questioning the church a couple months before, before my parents left. But then when my parents left, we all three left together and I lost my face very quickly.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] What were your questions? Was it around gender and sexuality or were there other things?

Alex Autry [00:22:18] No, it was, it was about, you know, I remember sitting in a young woman's meeting and reading something from the Book of Mormon and then them going on and me going, okay, but what if that didn't happen that way? And then immediately pushing that away because that's, that must be Satan trying to lead me away. But that happened several times of me going, but what if Joseph Smith didn't, didn't translate the Book of Mormon? And so, you know, those, those thoughts were kind of on me. So when my parents left the church, it was very easy for me to let go because I had already, I'd already had some doubts.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Now when adults go through that questioning, sometimes they can get caught in years and years of depression or sadness or, you know, cognitive dissonance because their whole worldview is built around this religious perspective. And so to unravel it is a non trivial thing. And sometimes it takes years. It sounds like for you it wasn't as conflicting to start questioning and doubting your faith. Is that true?

Alex Autry [00:23:21] That's very true. I mean, like I said, I've been a nerd for a long time, and for me, I really value information and knowledge and truth. And if I believe something isn't true, I want to know, is it true or is it not true? And so for me, having questions about anything was a very logical part of my Thinking and a part of my life, I'm always questioning and I want to know more.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] So for you, evidence, and particularly intellectual, rational, scientific evidence, is sort of primal. And you just feel like your disposition as a teen was to follow the evidence, and you would follow it whether or not kept you in the church. Your allegiance was to truth and to evidence, not to something else.

Alex Autry [00:24:06] That's right. As a Mormon, I would like to think that that would be my number one priority and my number one. My number one motivator, but it wasn't. I had very, very deep instinct for, you know, to learn the truth, and that overpowered, in many ways, overpowered my Mormon allegiance.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] So at any point, did you study Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham or polygamy or any of those sort of intellectual issues to decide what the historical record and the evidence showed with respect to the church's truth claims?

Alex Autry [00:24:46] Not until my parents left the church. That. That was really. I really tried to push my questions away because I wanted. You know, I had so many other battles going on with trying to stay in the church. I did not need another one, so I really pushed that away. But once my parents started questioning the church and then left very quickly after beginning questioning, that's when I learned all the information, and that's when I left.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] Okay. All right. So. So if we had hit you up right before you found out your parents had lost your faith, had lost their faith, and you were willing to, say, admit that you had lost yours, if I had said, alex, why did you lose your faith? What would you have said? It was the reason.

Alex Autry [00:25:29] At that point, I lost my faith because there wasn't enough evidence encouraging me to keep it.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] Okay, and what were you looking for in terms of evidence wouldn't. What about just the spiritual witness, the emotional stuff you had felt at church?

Alex Autry [00:25:44] I've always been a student of psychology, and I realized that feelings don't have to be based on anything rational. They don't have to be to be based on anything empirical.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] So what about the idea that emotions can be evidence of truthfulness?

Alex Autry [00:26:07] That's a tough one. I guess it was good, but I guess it wasn't good enough.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] Okay, all right. So you find out that your parents lost their faith in Mormonism, you feel a huge sense of relief.

Alex Autry [00:26:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] And then you come out to them as gay, is that right?

Alex Autry [00:26:22] Right, that's correct.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] In March, how was their response?

Alex Autry [00:26:30] Just. Just about as kind and loving as it could have been.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] Even your dad?

Alex Autry [00:26:35] Yes, even dad. Even that. It was. Yeah, it Was. It was amazing. They were. They were amazing.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] Okay, and was what. Once you guys had all decided to leave, did the church try and keep you? Did the ward people try and stage an intervention? Was it just a clean break? Was there gossip in the ward? Like.

Alex Autry [00:26:58] No, that only lasted a couple days. They were. I don't know. I feel like they were pretty much done with us when we were done with them. I mean, my friends were texting me and, you know, wanting to know what was going on and why wouldn't message them back and why I wasn't at church. Not that sort of thing. But after the first few days, that all kind of stopped.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Okay, now, were you guys in a. You're in rural Missouri, right?

Alex Autry [00:27:24] Right. We were in a branch. We actually traveled an hour every Sunday to get to church.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] Oh, wow. So that's a big sacrifice. Not a big. Not a big branch.

Alex Autry [00:27:33] No, no, very small. So small, in fact, that our young woman's presidency wasn't. There wasn't a Beehives presidency and a Laurel's presidency, that kind of thing. There was for all the young. For all the young women. There was a youth, like young woman's president, and then the first counselor was responsible for the Beehives, and the second counselor was responsible for the Miami, and the president responsible for Laurels. And in fact, I was the first counselor in the young woman's presidency when I left.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Oh, wow.

Alex Autry [00:28:05] And over. Right. In charge of the Beehives. So.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] Okay, so the church kind of just fell off the map within a matter of a week. And it was out of your. Out of your life?

Alex Autry [00:28:17] For me, it was.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] There was no attempt to talk to your branch president or priesthood leadership or any of that stuff?

Alex Autry [00:28:24] No. We sent in. Within a couple days, we sent in a letter to get our names removed from the records of the church. So after that, there was no. No contact.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] And really quickly, can you just. Do you know why your parents left? Do you know what it was that caused them to leave?

Alex Autry [00:28:40] Yes. My mom was watching a video on YouTube about. I want to say about the Amish. And there was a recommended video on the side. And basically the gist of the title was former former Mormon Bishop leaves Church tells all. And mom was very interested in that and went to click on it and then remembered, oh, we're not supposed to look at anything that could cause us to question our testimony. And mom goes, you know what? I'm 57 years old. I think I can handle it. I think I watched this without questioning my testimony. Turns out she couldn't because once she watched that video, she watched another video and another video and basically didn't sleep for three days and just kept watching videos about church history and Book of Abraham and polygamy and that. That sort of thing. And then, you know, showed my dad everything, and then they showed. They showed me everything, so.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Got it. Okay. So. So at what age did you come out as? As gay?

Alex Autry [00:29:44] 13.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] Okay. And then how did you talk to us about the. The sort of, like, what happened between then and you coming out as trans?

Alex Autry [00:29:57] I knew within probably a month of coming out as gay that it was just not gonna work, that this was great, that my parents know this part of my identity, but they're missing, you know, this is one piece in the overall larger puzzle. And I've got to show them the overall larger puzzle, because for them, this makes sense. For me, this is. This isn't working.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Sexuality is totally different than gender.

Alex Autry [00:30:23] Exactly. So thing one, it was like putting a band over the issue of my queer identity. Like, that wasn't solving any problems.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] Yeah.

Alex Autry [00:30:34] Two separate things.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] You're basically saying I'm attracted to women, but core to your identity is your gender expression.

Alex Autry [00:30:41] Right, right, right. Like, who am I attracted to women as?

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Right. Yeah. That's kind of the foundation, isn't it? Right?

Alex Autry [00:30:49] It is.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] So how did you. So what was that like, coming out as trans?

Alex Autry [00:30:55] Honestly, much more difficult. I remember so clearly. I don't think I'll ever forget. I remember exactly when I came out to my mom as trans. We were sitting. We're sitting in a restaurant. We just sat down with our food. It was just her and me and sat down. And, you know, we were kind of sitting there in silence, eating for a couple minutes, and I looked up and I said, mom, you know how I came out as gay? And you could just see her face went white. Like, she knew that this conversation was going to go somewhere that she was not. Not super prepared for.

Alex Autry [00:31:26] And she said, yes. I said, I think there's something else. And she said, what do you mean, there's something else? I said, I think I'm transgender. And almost immediately, big tears started rolling down her face from. From fear. And I think in lack of understanding about what being transgender was and just total uncertainty, because we pretty well know what being gay means.

Alex Autry [00:31:53] I think most Americans know being gay means. I think a significantly fewer number of Americans know what being transgender is. And so that all, you know, really was a weight on her shoulders.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] And so she cried. And then did that. Did that begin a period of difficulty or. Of Learning how did it go from crying to what?

Alex Autry [00:32:17] We just didn't talk about it for a couple weeks. We really. That was it. Like, we had the conversation and that was it. We really didn't talk about it for several weeks. I want to say that was in May of 2015. And then in June of 2015, I attended Missouri Scholars Academy, and I was gone. I lived at the University of Missouri for three weeks.

Alex Autry [00:32:41] And that was an incredible experience because if you'll remember, in June of 2015, that's when the Supreme Court passed marriage equality in all 50 states, which was an incredible experience for me to be surrounded by all these incredibly bright individuals while this was happening. You know, very, very different crowd than I was used to.

Alex Autry [00:33:02] And then I got home and she said, I called the gender Clinic at Children's Mercy. They're going to call us back. We're going to talk to them. And that was amazing that my mom had taken the initiative to. Take that step forward and be so willing to help me, because I know that was hard.

John Dehlin [00:33:27] So what'd you learn? So, okay, did you. Did your dad have any reaction or was it just not talked about with your dad?

Alex Autry [00:33:34] No, we really didn't. No, I guess not. I really. I really don't remember having a whole lot of conversations with dad about it. Maybe only one or two. I think most of most of Dad's education came, like, secondhand from mom, like mom talking to him about it, but I really didn't talk to Dad a whole lot about it.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] So what'd you learn at the clinic?

Alex Autry [00:33:52] Well, we called them first and they told us. They asked. They had one question that was. That was the main question, the first thing they asked. They said, have you ever. Are you currently suicidal or have you ever had thoughts of suicide? And when I said no, they said, that's great, but we kind of have a good news, bad news situation. The good news is that's awesome that you've never had thoughts of suicide. The bad news is you now go to the bottom of our list as far as getting into the gender clinic.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Oh, my gosh. That's like a. That's like a reinforcer to be suicidal.

Alex Autry [00:34:28] Yeah. Because we are swamped. We have way, way more cases than we can handle. Our clinic is not big enough. We have a massive waiting list. And I want to say it took me. They set my appointment three and a half months out. Took me three and a half months to get into the clinic.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Yeah.

Alex Autry [00:34:48] How'd that feel at that. At that moment, we made the appointment. I Don't know. I'd already waited two years. I had already known I was transferred. Two years. What's three and a half more months?

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Okay. Okay.

Alex Autry [00:34:59] So at least there was kind of a light at the end of the tunnel. Like, finally, finally I'm going to talk to somebody about this.

Understanding the Female-to-Male Transition Process

John Dehlin [00:35:05] So when, when, when someone assigned female at birth is, is looking at transitioning. And something, Kimberly, is really good to talk to us about is that people need to be really sensitive about not invading someone's privacy. So I want you to only answer questions. Well, only talk about things exactly at the level you're comfortable. What are the things that you had to think about biologically with your body or whatever? What is that process like to, to contemplate that transition? I know that there's a talk of hormones or T, as I learned it's referred to, but talk about what are the things you have to think about and experience as you're transitioning?

Alex Autry [00:35:57] Okay, well, I don't know if she talked to you about the concept of passing.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] No. What is that?

Alex Autry [00:36:03] Okay, well, it's a super controversial topic, actually, in the trans community, but we use this term passing. What that means is you're assigned a female at birth, but you look male enough that in general society they use male pronouns to refer to you. And they are super comfortable. You know, like, they wouldn't, they wouldn't know you're trans.

Alex Autry [00:36:27] And that's why it's super controversial, because some people don't want to hide their trans identity. And it really enforces gender roles in the way we view gender in society. And, but, but for a lot of people, it's, it's very important that, that they, that they pass in society.

Alex Autry [00:36:44] And so as a trans person who is assigned a female at birth, my, my big job was to make, make my body comfortable enough for me that I was passing in society and people were using male pronouns, that I looked male enough that people would, would see me as male.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] So that's, that's a transition. So you, is that, is that sort of a middle road to transitioning then? Is that what you mean? You, you come out as trans, tell people if you change your name, what the new name is, tell people the pronouns, but maybe nothing biologically has changed yet. Is that what you're saying? Or am I missing something?

Alex Autry [00:37:27] Not quite. I think passing, passing really matters most when you're dealing with strangers. So the thought is, if I, as a trans male pass, that means that a stranger is going to come up to me and say, hi, sir, how are you doing that sort of thing that, like, without any prompting, they're going to see me as male, and at that point, I pass.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] Okay, and so you're saying you. Are you saying you looked male enough to where you could pass? Is that what you're saying?

Alex Autry [00:37:56] In a lot of. In a lot of circumstances, yes. My mom reminded me of a great story when I was younger, I want to say, probably maybe eight or nine, we were in line at, like, Subway or someplace like that, and the guy behind the counter looked at me and he goes, do you need a girl toy or a boy toy? So even that young, I was presenting masculinely enough that, you know, strangers were already kind of questioning my gender identity long before I was seriously questioning my gender identity. And so when I came out before, I was on testosterone, because I am on testosterone now, but before I was, my voice was low for a female voice. Low enough that in some. Sometimes I was gendered as male. My hair was fairly short, so I was gendered as male quite often.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Okay, so tell, tell, tell us what, what things a trans male kind of has to think about as. As they can contemplate a transition. What are the main questions or decisions that. That a trans male would have to make or think about?

Alex Autry [00:39:09] Okay. And of course, all this I'm answering as far as, like, my. My experience.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] Yeah, but I asked you this without. Without asking you to tell us details of what your actual experience was.

Alex Autry [00:39:24] No, no, yeah, that's fine. That's fine. They need to consider what, what they're wanting to transition, because I know a lot of. A lot of people who transition from female to male are already super comfortable with parts of their body and do not feel the need to change them in any way to be comfortable in their bodies. But a lot of trans masculine people definitely want to change things. For me, I really did want my voice to get lower, and my voice has gotten lower because of testosterone. That was something that was important to me. I worry about how my chest looks a lot because that is a thing that society really uses as a gender marker.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] And so there's something called top surgery, right?

Alex Autry [00:40:06] Yes, yes. Top surgery is kind of the. How should I say, it's done to reduce. To reduce chest size and make. Make a chest look more masculine in appearance. There are lots of different ways that's done, and there are lots of different places you can get that done.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] And my understanding is it can be quite a significant surgery. It's not a trivial surgery.

Alex Autry [00:40:30] Yes. Cost wise, it can cost from like 7 to $13,000. You know, require hospitalization for several days, lots and lots of recovery time. It's a big deal. But the impact it can have on trans man's mental health, you know, the benefits far outweigh the cost for a lot of people.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Okay, okay, so there's top surgery, and then there's whether you take testosterone or not.

Alex Autry [00:41:00] Right. Which I would say in the United States is, at least where I live, way easier to fund, because for me, I was originally. I was young enough when I went to my endocrinologist that she did not want to put me on testosterone. I was too young. She said, you know, you would start changing in ways that boys your age wouldn't. Naturally, you would be hitting puberty too early for normal. For normal masculine people, people that were assigned male at birth. And so she wanted to put me on an estrogen blocker, which would kind of put me in a pause to where I wasn't. My body wasn't becoming more masculine appearance, but it wasn't becoming more feminine appearance.

Alex Autry [00:41:44] All chest growth would stop and, like, my hips wouldn't widen, that sort of thing. It would keep me from going further into female puberty, but that my insurance refused to cover anything related to gender. And it was probably. They say it was going to be like $1,000 every, like, two, two months or something like that, like, out of pocket, which I could not deal with. I couldn't cover.

Alex Autry [00:42:12] And so we said, okay, wait just a couple months. Can we look at testosterone? And she said, yes, I feel fine with that. Like, you know, you seem mature enough. We can look at that. I said, how much is that going to cost? And she said, well, the dose you'd start at probably $13 every two months. And that was a relief. I can handle $13 every two months right now.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] There are health risks with testosterone. Is that true?

Alex Autry [00:42:44] There hasn't been a ton of research done on it. Yes, there are some health risks. Clearly, I'm not an expert, and I haven't been on testosterone long enough to see anything manifest. But they say that later in life they can, if you don't remove internal female organs, that there can. That they are higher at risk for having cancer in that area. So, like ovaries, the risk for ovarian cancer goes up if you're on testosterone.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Okay.

Alex Autry [00:43:13] But a lot of trans men ought to have surgery to remove that anyway, so it's just a consideration.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] Okay, great. Okay. So for you, what were the important milestones of your transition for your family and friends and schoolmates?

Coming Out at School and Beginning Transition

Alex Autry [00:43:34] Coming out to my family, coming out to my school.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] How did you come out to your school? Now you don't live in just a, you know, a ritzy, upper class educated, you know, you don't live in Berkeley or Manhattan.

Alex Autry [00:43:48] No, it's so far from it. I live in an incredibly small town, well under a thousand people. I attend A K through 12 school all in one building. In my high school there are about 70 people, probably 60 people. So very, very small.

Alex Autry [00:44:06] So when I decided that I needed to come out to my school, we had a sit down meeting with all the administrators and the counselor and the school nurse and took several hours to kind of lay out, here's what's going on. And I am the first, I was the first person to ever be openly trans at my school. I know that they're, statistically speaking, must have been trans people before me, but I'm the first one to openly transition in my school.

Alex Autry [00:44:33] It was all very new to them. So we talked to them for several hours about it and the superintendent at the time stood up and said, okay, so when are we going to tell the rest of students? It was kind of, you know, okay, well, this became very real. And I said, do you want us to do it or do you want to do it? And I said, no, I want to do it. And so that same day they called a faculty meeting after school. I went and talked to all the teachers and staff. K12, explained to them what was happening and said, tomorrow at lunch, during high school lunch, I'm going to, I'm going to come out because my entire high school eats one in one lunch. It's because there's so few of us. And so that's what happened. The next day the principal said, how are the teachers?

John Dehlin [00:45:14] How are the teachers?

Alex Autry [00:45:15] Amazing. And I think it comes from me being a very well respected person in my school, in my community. I think, you know, had I been a troublemaker, you know, why would they have any reason to be nice to me or to do the right thing in my, in my, in my favor, but because I'm incredibly involved and incredibly active in my community. Why, why wouldn't they be accepting and loving? And they were.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] You're kind of a super good student, right?

Alex Autry [00:45:43] I'm pretty good, yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] Okay, so you told the teachers and

Alex Autry [00:45:48] then the next day, the next day, yes, we, my principal said, okay, we have someone that needs to talk to us and basically stood up and said, you know, my entire life you've, you've known me as someone you know, and I use my birth name and I Said you. You've known me as this, but that's not really who I am. My name is Alex. I am, I am male, and I am currently in the process of transitioning from female to male. So I use he, him pronouns, and my name is Alex, and if you have any questions, ask me.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] And how are the students?

Alex Autry [00:46:27] Amazing. The entire, the entire football team sits at one table and they all stood up and cheered and clapped.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] Oh, my gosh, that's wonderful.

Alex Autry [00:46:36] It was amazing. And then when lunch ended, they made like two rows on either side of the door as I walked out. So I got to like, talk to everybody. And it was amazing. It was, it was an amazing experience.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] It's like a celebration almost.

Alex Autry [00:46:49] Yes, it was.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] Oh, that's incredible. What made them want to celebrate you just because you were well liked?

Alex Autry [00:46:55] Yes. And because I think they could tell that there was an immediate change. Like there was an immediate lifting of weight off my shoulders. It was instant, you know, the moment I said, I use he, him pronouns and my name is Alex, like, I could feel within myself and I knew that they could tell that something had changed.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Yeah, that's so special.

Alex Autry [00:47:18] And I wasn't, I wasn't worried about coming out to my classmates at all, really, because my, you know, even though we live in a really rural area, I feel like they have some very progressive ideas among my classmates. I was worried about their parents, you know, their, their parents who have lived in rural Missouri their entire lives and very, very conservative, closed minded views of things. You know, the Bubba dads who, you know, have to. Have to take the beer out of their truck before they come to the football game. You know, those, those types of people. I was very worried. My mom slept on the sofa in our front room by our front door for like two weeks, just thinking, you know, so nobody would burn our house down. Like, we were worried about that. I wasn't worried about the kids. It was the parents that concerned me.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] And were the parents ever violent? Have you guys been mistreated in any way?

Alex Autry [00:48:12] They weren't, they weren't. In fact, the one, the one dad that I was like, really, really concerned about, he commented or his wife commented on one of my Facebook, my mom's Facebook posts when I was going to some competition, like, way to go, Alex. You know, hope you do great. So it just, it hasn't, it hasn't turned out to be the concern that we thought it would be.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] That's so amazing. I'm so happy to hear that. So, so has it been smooth sailing since then? Or have there been complications? And how are you doing now?

Alex Autry [00:48:49] No, it's been. It's been pretty smooth. I did. I was able to get on testosterone. I'm probably about a year, year and a half now. Not sure. I got my name changed, which was an easy process. The judge was super, super nice. And that was no problem. There really have been no problems. It's kind of. We were a little scared a couple months ago as I am graduating this year and we go into college and the prospect of like, how would I deal with dorm life and as an already transitioned person, how would I enter college and how would I deal with those sort of things? But those have turned out to be just fine. And really no major concerns. My college has been incredible in working out dorm situations and that's the thing in bathroom situations. So it's been awesome.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Are you comfortable sharing where you're going to school?

Alex Autry [00:49:41] Yes, I will be attending Central Methodist University in the fall.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] Okay. And they've got no problem. Will you just be going into male bathrooms and they're cool with that?

Alex Autry [00:49:52] Yes, they're totally fine with that. I will be living in a co ed dorm. Not co ed by room, but within. Within the dorm itself. It's co ed. So that's. That's really great. I really wanted that. It's gonna cost me some to not be in a freshman boys dorm, but to be in a coed dorm. But yeah, totally fine with bathroom is

John Dehlin [00:50:14] that just is not wanting to be in a boys dorm just out of like not wanting to deal with potential problems for kids who might have a problem with it or.

Alex Autry [00:50:22] I really do not feel comfortable showering in a community shower type of, you know, type of scenario. I would much rather have a shower in my room, which is going to probably be the case.

John Dehlin [00:50:33] So that makes sense.

Alex Autry [00:50:35] That was really my main concern. I didn't want to do that.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] That sounds great. Makes total sense. Okay. And so you're thriving. It sounds like you're. Are you graduating from high school soon then?

Alex Autry [00:50:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] In two weeks as a 16 year old?

Alex Autry [00:50:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] Is that because you're like ahead of your grade kind of thing?

Alex Autry [00:50:55] Yes, I skipped two grades, so I am ahead.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] Skipped two grades. Are you on scholarship to your university?

Alex Autry [00:51:04] Yes, I am on a merit, an academic merit scholarship, a choir scholarship and a band scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] That's amazing. Do you miss church? Do you miss Mormonism?

Alex Autry [00:51:16] No.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] Why not?

Alex Autry [00:51:19] I feel that sometimes I'm a really musical person. So for me, the really only thing that I miss is singing hymns and not for the lyrical content. But for just kind of the choral content of it. But other than that, I really don't miss being Mormon, and I'm not religious at all anymore, and I don't really miss that.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Okay, so you miss. You miss the music. What about the relationship with God? Do you consider yourself a believer now? Do you. Are you just a Christian? Are you an atheist? Like, what. What are your beliefs now, religiously?

Alex Autry [00:51:58] No, I'm an atheist. So I. And I don't really, you know, I realize anything could change, but I don't really see myself being anything other than atheist in the future.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] And why is that? Do you. Can you talk about how that happened? How you became an atheist, so to speak?

Alex Autry [00:52:17] Yeah, I feel like once I questioned Mormonism and really took a good, long, hard look at Mormonism and realized that, you know, I can. I believe that, and now I don't. I took a long, hard look at religion as a whole and decided that that wasn't something for me anymore. That I didn't. I didn't. I didn't believe that anymore. And I don't. And I looked at other religions, too, like, not just Christianity, which is, you know, obviously what I was raised in, but I looked at other forms of religion and said, no, I don't. I don't think those are for me either. I don't think I need those in my life.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] Okay.

Alex Autry [00:52:51] But they might. I did say that I was attending Central Methodist University. They said they promised they'd love me anyway, so

John Dehlin [00:52:59] that was okay.

Alex Autry [00:53:01] Yeah. I mean, they said they'd give me half off tuition if I were Methodist for a year, but I said no, hard pass.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] Okay. All right. Okay. So you're feeling good about being an atheist. Do you worry about death and whether you go to heaven and that kind of thing, Whether there's an afterlife?

Alex Autry [00:53:20] No, I don't worry about that at all. I wasn't worried about it before I was born. Why should I worry about it after I die?

John Dehlin [00:53:25] So, like, if there's no Alex once you die, you're not bummed about that?

Alex Autry [00:53:29] No, no. I think the point is to live now. And if there's no Alex after I die, I hope to have accomplished everything that Alex wanted to do.

Life After Mormonism, Atheism, and Future Hopes

John Dehlin [00:53:36] What about this idea of seeing your family in the afterlife and, you know, doesn't.

Alex Autry [00:53:42] Doesn't worry me. Doesn't bother me. I don't think about it.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] But you love your family, right?

Alex Autry [00:53:46] Yes, of course I do, but it just. I don't. I don't know. It doesn't. It doesn't bother Me, I guess I've reconciled the idea that, you know, once I die, that's it for. For me as far as what I believe and should I, you know, arrive in the afterlife and there's God. Well, I was wrong. Shoot. Nice to see all my family again.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] But what about the idea of someone atoning for your sins?

Alex Autry [00:54:12] I don't believe in sin, so that's not atonement. Doesn't really.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] Do you believe that there's good and bad behavior?

Alex Autry [00:54:22] The psychology, sociology side of me is really going to kind of play in here. I don't. I think good and bad is largely determined by society and not, you know, and by how we think it's easiest to live. I don't necessarily think that there are good things and bad things. You know, I think we can always bring up the. Is it bad to speed? Yes. Is it bad to speed if you're, you know, somebody's gonna have a baby and you need to get to the hospital? Well, probably not. So. Good and bad are very flexible.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] But, like, killing somebody is wrong, right?

Alex Autry [00:54:50] Yeah. I wouldn't do that.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] If somebody says you need a religion to be moral, what would you say?

Alex Autry [00:54:58] You may need a religion to be moral. I don't. I think if you need. I think if you need a religion to be moral, you need to take a good long look at what you think morality is. Because I'm doing just fine. I haven't. I haven't killed anybody.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] What about, you know, stealing and lying and all those sorts of things?

Alex Autry [00:55:20] I think society and the laws, you know, the laws of man, as they would say, do a pretty good job of convincing me that those aren't things I should do. I think I can really very naturally see that, you know, lying and stealing aren't good things to do.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] So what do you base your morality on?

Alex Autry [00:55:38] I feel like my morality is ever changing, but it kind of comes down to three things. If. If you hurt people, you know, I don't know. That's not. That's not even very clear.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] Sounds like you use common sense.

Alex Autry [00:55:59] Yeah. Based. I mean, that's. That's really. That's it. You know, would you. Would you want someone to do it to you? Then don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Golden rule.

Alex Autry [00:56:06] Golden rule.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] What do you hope for yourself in terms of. Do you want to. In terms of relationships, love, family? Do you have hopes and dreams that way?

Alex Autry [00:56:15] Yes, I do. I do. I do hope to get married someday and have a family. That is very, very much something I want to look forward to.

John Dehlin [00:56:21] And you're Attracted to women. So you consider yourself straight gender? Genderqueer.

Alex Autry [00:56:29] But yeah, currently. Currently, I'd say I identify as straight.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Okay. Did I see a photo of you going to a dance or something?

Alex Autry [00:56:39] Yes, you probably did see my prom pictures.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] That's. You went to prom?

Alex Autry [00:56:42] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] With a girl?

Alex Autry [00:56:45] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:56:46] How was that?

Alex Autry [00:56:47] Amazing. It was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] And so the whole school knows that you're trans male? Did she talk about that? Was that an issue? Like.

Alex Autry [00:56:57] No, no, not at all. If I wasn't gonna make a big issue of it, they weren't. And my girlfriend has a queer identity too, so, like, that's a big, big part of connecting.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] So you have a girlfriend?

Alex Autry [00:57:10] Yes, I do. The girl that I took to prom is my girlfriend.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] Oh, she's your girlfriend? Oh, excellent. Okay, fantastic. Congratulations. That's fun.

Alex Autry [00:57:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] Did you ever imagine yourself having a girlfriend at age 16?

Alex Autry [00:57:23] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] What's it like?

Alex Autry [00:57:26] Pretty great.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] Congratulations. Okay, so someday you do want to get married?

Alex Autry [00:57:34] Yes, I do.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] And you want to have kids?

Alex Autry [00:57:36] Yes, yes, I definitely want to be a father.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Okay, excellent, Excellent. All right, so you know, there. Let's just say there's some Mormons or believing Mormons watching who are trying to make sense of this whole issue. What would you say to them as it relates to their education around the transgender experience and Mormon beliefs?

Advice for Transgender and Questioning Mormon Youth

Alex Autry [00:58:04] I don't think there's any really clear answer. I think there are a lot of things in, within Mormonism that would cause hostility or confusion towards people who identify as trans.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] Do you have a plea for the church, what you would wish the church would do?

Alex Autry [00:58:22] Yes. Let people be happy. Please let people be happy. And if they are, and if happiness for them is transitioning, please, please do not call them sinners for that. And please do not look down upon them for trying to be happy while they live on earth. I'm not. I'm not. Something broken to be. To be fixed. And if you, if you think that by being Mormon you're gonna be able to fix all the broken things. Look, look past me because I'm not one of the broken things you need to fix.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] That's beautiful. What if they were to say, hey, Joseph didn't leave any accommodation for transgender stuff. The priesthood, you know, gender is eternal. We really can't budge on this. This is sort of the way that God has revealed himself to us. What would you say

Alex Autry [00:59:13] as a post Mormon and non religious person? I'd say I'm fine with that. If your members are fine with that, that's fine. But I know it's not that easy because I know there are transgender members of the Truth Church that would have to deal with that. And to them, I would say there have been policy changes in the past on things that you said you wouldn't change, so maybe consider it.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] Right. What would you say to a young transgender Mormon who hasn't come out yet? What would you. What would you say to them in terms of advice?

Alex Autry [00:59:46] Look online. There are lots of Mormon LGBT groups that are very welcoming and happy to help. I know. I remember. I'm a member of one right now.

John Dehlin [00:59:58] What are some. Where are some places people can look for support?

Alex Autry [01:00:02] Facebook's great.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] Is there a specific group a trans youth can join?

Alex Autry [01:00:08] Not specific for trans people. Not that I know of. But I'm sure they're out there. It's just because I haven't looked for them, because that hasn't really been something I've needed as of late.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] You're just saying. Are there websites for trans kids that you're aware of, like, really good websites, sources of information?

Alex Autry [01:00:24] I really wish I could name. Name some.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] Oh, it's okay. It's okay.

Alex Autry [01:00:27] No, I know. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:00:28] So your advice is educate yourself, get online. Any other advice for a trans kid?

Alex Autry [01:00:35] No, not past. Educate yourself and look online. Be very open to your identity changing, and I know that's really scary, but I'm assuming at some point you identified in some way as the gender you were assigned at birth and is straight or what have you. And that changed as you looked inward and realized things. And it's important to realize that those feelings could change again the more you look and the more comfortable you feel with yourself. So don't feel like you have to be set in this forever and that once you decide I am transgender, that title fits. You don't think that that has to be set in stone for the rest of your life. Your identity can't change.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] But that's. Isn't that scary? Because sometimes you make decisions transitioning that can affect your body or the rest of your life. And so this idea that it may not be fixed, I imagine that could be scary.

Alex Autry [01:01:32] It is scary for me. In my specific case, I don't have any feelings that conflict with my transgender identity. That is very, very set and fixed. And so I felt very comfortable going on hormones and transitioning because I didn't feel. I didn't. I didn't feel that was going to change. But I know for some people. Some people choose not to go on hormones for that very, very reason that they. They know their identity could change, and they're very aware of that. For me, I didn't see that as being an issue, but it is something to think about, and it's kind of scary.

John Dehlin [01:02:05] So you're saying if you're feeling mixed, take it slow and don't rush it. Is that what you're saying?

Alex Autry [01:02:10] Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Do not rush into transitioning. As much as you want to go, go, go and transition, and it feels, you know, like it's never going to happen. And you want everything to happen so quickly. Please take your time. Please, please analyze your feelings. Please educate yourself on what you're doing.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] If somebody were to accuse you of this, this is being a fad. Oh, my gosh. You know, Caitlyn Jenner, transgender stuff is kind of a fad. And there's this risk of youth seeing the fad and jumping on a bandwagon. I know that's an incredibly insulting question, but I know people think it. What would your response be to someone who had a concern about youth jumping on a bandwagon?

Alex Autry [01:02:50] Transgender people are murdered in the United States every single year. There have been several murdered in Kansas City already, which is the nearest big city to me. You wouldn't transition. You wouldn't transition if it weren't what you needed. You wouldn't. There is too much emotional and physical pain to even think about doing it for, you know, the Joe Bona bandwagon.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] What would you tell a youth in terms of just their mental health, their happiness, their anxiety, their depression? What would you say to them to encourage them as they're trying to figure this all out? Go through it?

Alex Autry [01:03:27] Somebody proposed to me several months ago that the idea that LGBT could save for something else and that life gets better today and that it there is a light at the end of the tunnel and that it may seem like the light is really far off, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel and that it does get better. And, you know, you will graduate from high school and you will move out of your parents house and, you know, life, life will go on. It may not seem very possible now, but there is hope and there is help available.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] So get it. Okay? So have hope and life gets better. All right. Well, I guess the thing that we always like to kind of end with is kind of what you believe now. And I would love to just ask you, Alex, to share with us kind of your closing thoughts, your secular testimony, as it were, of what life means to you now, and any final thoughts you have about your experience that you would want to share with someone who's trying to learn about this or trying to listen. What would your closing thoughts be?

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Alex Autry [01:04:33] For me, the. The overall gist of life is that you need to live for you and that there is so much to be had in the world, and there's so much to see and so much to do. And that finding personal happiness for yourself is the most important thing that you could ever. That you could ever find. And that. And just because my happiness doesn't look like your happiness doesn't mean that it isn't happiness.

John Dehlin [01:04:58] So find out what makes you happy and do that.

Alex Autry [01:05:02] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:05:03] All right. All right. Well, Alex, you're inspiring, and I'm really thrilled that you were willing to share your experience with us.

Alex Autry [01:05:17] It's been great. I love talking about it, and I love showing other people that, hey, you can transition. It does get better.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] All right. And do you know what you want to be when you grow up? Do you have an idea?

Alex Autry [01:05:29] My current plan is to major in music education and be a band director.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] Nice. So you're a band geek through and through.

Alex Autry [01:05:35] Yes, all the way.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] All right. All right, Alex. Well, tons of love and respect to you from the Mormon Stories community. Your parents are awesome as well. We wish you the best, and we just want to thank you for being willing to share your story. We know that a lot of people are going to be inspired by it. Is it okay? Will you monitor kind of the comments on mormonstories.org and if people have questions or concerns, maybe you could answer them?

Alex Autry [01:06:04] Yes, absolutely. I'd love to.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] And we'll try and moderate and delete anything that's disrespectful, obviously. All right, Alex. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. You're a real inspiration.

Alex Autry [01:06:16] Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I've loved it.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] And listeners, thanks for joining us. Please do comment@mormonstories.org if you want to ask Alex questions, make comments. Please be respectful and kind. I want to thank everyone who donates to Open Stories Foundation Mormon Stories. You guys keep us going. Please do donate if you value this content. 10 or 20 bucks a month recurring can make all the difference. So please do. Please do share if you can, and that'll keep us going. And we're gonna be interviewing someone tomorrow as well, in her case, a trans female, actually on Wednesday. Her name is London. And we're really excited to kind of close out the series, so please tune in as well. So thanks again, everyone, for joining us. Online. Alex, thanks again. And we'll. We'll see. Hope to see you soon. Tell your parents hi.

Alex Autry [01:07:09] I will. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] All right. Take care, Alex.

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