Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guests: Jeff Kindred, Larissa Kindred
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Purpose of the Interview
Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1684
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 24, 2022, and we have an epic Mormon Stories podcast for you today. We have with us Jeff and Larissa Kindred. Hey, guys.
Larissa Kindred [00:00:14] Hi.
John Dehlin [00:00:15] Welcome.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:16] Thanks.
Larissa Kindred [00:00:16] We're excited.
John Dehlin [00:00:18] They're here all the way from Nashville, Tennessee. But today's Mormon Stories episode just has so many key central themes that are. That are so crucial to our Mormon Stories audience. We're going to be talking about Larissa growing up as an LDS Church member in Utah of Japanese American descent. We're even going to be talking about Topaz and the Japanese concentration camps, you know, around World War II time period and growing up in a multiracial family in Utah. Jeff has stories about growing up here in Salt Lake City, Brighton High School, he had a grooming scout master. We're going to be talking about that. Jeff played basketball and tennis at the kind of the state level here for the Bengals. So that's fun. But we're going to be talking about infertility in marriage, adoption in marriage, multiracial adoption in marriage. Both of them served in high leadership positions, including Relief Society presidencies, bishoprics, and stake High Councils. But we're also going to be talking about kind of social awakenings in the past couple recent years, you know, becoming awakened to women's issues, to racial issues, to LGBTQ issues and other sorts of issues and how that affected their marriage. We're going to be talking about COVID and cancer and breast cancer. Larissa was diagnosed with breast cancer and had double mastectomy that we'll be talking about. We're going to be talking about sexual dysfunction the way sometimes Mormonism sets couples up for sexual dysfunction, how they have worked through that. And to boot, they will be talking about having an LGBTQ child and multiracial adoption, and then finally their faith journey. Holy moly.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:02:05] It's like you check every. Almost every box.
Larissa Kindred [00:02:07] That was a good. That was a good teaser for this.
John Dehlin [00:02:10] So welcome to Salt Lake City. Welcome to and welcome back to Utah.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:15] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:02:16] Thanks for coming on Mormon Stories.
Jeff Kindred [00:02:17] Yeah, it's great to be here.
John Dehlin [00:02:19] Yeah. And we're also thrilled to have Margi in the house as co host. Margi, I'm so glad you're here.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:25] I am glad to be here.
John Dehlin [00:02:26] Yeah. All right, well, I. I read on YouTube or listen, watched on YouTube, the jumping into things is the way to do it. So let's jump in. Okay, Jeff, where does your Mormon story begin? And if either of you want to start with the disclaimer, sometimes believing family members might get the wrong idea. There's just kind of this uninformed assumption that if you come on Mormon stories, you're trying to tear down people's faith or you hate the church or. Or you want to destroy the church or whatever, trying to take people out of the church and destroy faith. Do either of you want to start with kind of a disclaimer on why you wanted to come on Mormon stories?
Jeff's Early Life and Mormon Upbringing
Jeff Kindred [00:03:00] Well, I would say that the only disclaimer I have is that the purpose of being here is because I think it will be extremely therapeutic for Larissa and I. I think we have a story that is relatable and will be helpful. And I guess the other thing is we will be vulnerable. This will be getting into issues that of, you know, sexuality, sex, dysfunction, and. And those are things that people might not be. People that know me, I know some of my people from work know that I'm coming, and they're interested, so it might be too much information for some people. That's the only disclaimer I have.
John Dehlin [00:03:35] Okay. Larissa, anything you want to add?
Larissa Kindred [00:03:37] Maybe just that, you know, I think that as we kind of deconstructed our relationship with the church, I think that we learned to. To differentiate the. The system from the people in the church because, you know, as. As we go through this, we actually. A few positive experiences in the church, and there's people that are really special to us that were part of our church journey. And so.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:02] But.
Larissa Kindred [00:04:03] But we also feel very strongly about some of the damage that we saw the church do. And so, you know, that that's. I think our approach is that there's a system here that we feel is capable of, you know, creating harm. And that doesn't mean that we feel like the people are. Are doing that. And I know you talk about systems versus people a lot, so. So I would just maybe like to. Reiter.
John Dehlin [00:04:25] Love it. All right. Well, it's an act of courage and vulnerability to come on Mormon stories, and for many, it's also a big blessing. So we're just so grateful you come all the way from Nashville to be with us.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:39] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:04:40] I'm thinking this is going to be probably a three parter, so it's going to be many hours and many parts just because there's so much to the story. But let's dive in. So, Jeff, where does your Mormon story begin?
Jeff Kindred [00:04:55] So my story begins. I grew up in a family that was lds. My parents had both been raised lds. My mom came from A family that was extremely unstable. Both her parents were alcoholics and I think.
John Dehlin [00:05:11] Here in Utah.
Jeff Kindred [00:05:12] Yes. Here in Utah. Yes. She and my dad were alcoholics in Utah. Yeah. Right. There used to be.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:18] There's two.
Jeff Kindred [00:05:18] I don't think there is anymore.
John Dehlin [00:05:19] There used to be.
Jeff Kindred [00:05:22] Her and my dad both went to Highland High School. And so, yeah, I think that played a part in who my mom was. And she, I think, was extremely controlling and overbearing, trying because of her upbringing. My dad grew up in the church. He went through a stint of being less active, but ended up serving a mission. Actually, he served in Elder Holland's mission. And there was another one of the apostles in that same mission, too.
John Dehlin [00:05:48] So in the UK in the early 60s.
Jeff Kindred [00:05:50] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:50] England.
John Dehlin [00:05:51] Yep.
Jeff Kindred [00:05:51] London.
John Dehlin [00:05:51] That was your dad. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Quentin Cook was in that.
Jeff Kindred [00:05:56] Quentin Cook, Yeah, that's who it was. Yeah. Quentin Cook.
John Dehlin [00:05:57] Marion D. Hanks was his mission president.
Jeff Kindred [00:06:00] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:06:00] And that was the baseball baptisms era. You know, what you think about that?
Jeff Kindred [00:06:03] He didn't ever say anything about that.
John Dehlin [00:06:04] Have you heard of it?
Jeff Kindred [00:06:05] No, he didn't. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I know all about it.
Larissa Kindred [00:06:07] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:06:07] But I did not ever hear that from him that that was going on. But so. So my family growing up, I would say we went in and out of how, you know, how hard we were going with Mormonism. I mean, there were times when I feel like my parents would try and double down and they'd get us all up early morning. It never stuck. You know, I mean, there were. I think every time we tried to do scripture study, it would end up in fights or people sleeping or. And family home evening, the same thing. I think every family home evening we had always ended up in people fighting or someone running off crying. It was just. That's my memories of those two things. But my parents did try to do that. I do have a memory of my dad every morning, probably my entire life, reading his scriptures in the morning. That's just something he did, like, religiously, you know, all of the time. And so that was that growing up, I think I always was. I mean, my mom would tell me that I was always faithful from the beginning. I always had a lot of faith. Guess is what she would say. So I never doubted the church. I remember when we moved from Sandy over to Cottonwood Heights and I was so stressed out because, you know, you get up in church and say, I know this church is true. And asking my mom, are we still going to go to that church? What about this? Like, we're going to a new church and to me, that was, like, really disconcerting that, what about this church isn't true? And, you know, we switched words because we switched words. We're buildings. Yeah, yeah. Because to me, that didn't. I mean, and the thing of growing up here in Utah, that's so crazy is you don't realize that everyone doesn't believe in Joseph Smith in the world. And so that was, I think, just so interesting to me that I just thought this was. Everyone did. I mean, all the people that I was around, I felt like, you know, believed in it and knew about it. And so that's just part of the bubble that we grow up in here that I think plays a role or plays a part in all of this. So.
John Dehlin [00:08:00] But even talking about ways that it didn't stick, was your family oriented around Mormonism in terms of, like, church attendance and obeying the rules?
Jeff Kindred [00:08:10] Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I think that keeping the Commandments. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think there was high expectations. And I think growing up, I had four sisters. I was the only boy, and I think I was always treated a little bit better than my sisters, for whatever, being the only boy. And I think that was always something that I was. I mean, I think all my sisters would agree with that, too, that I was always the golden child and treated that way. And I think my mom always thought that, oh, well, Jeff will do it. You know, Jeff's gonna do what's right and be the, you know, be the perfect child. And I think there was some pressure that came with that, too.
John Dehlin [00:08:51] Did you identify with Nephi growing up?
Jeff Kindred [00:08:53] Oh, absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:08:54] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:08:57] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:08:58] So anything before your adolescence about your story or your family story that bears mention? I guess you have a scouting story you wanted to share, but what comes next in your story?
Jeff Kindred [00:09:09] Yeah, probably that. So when I was in Scouts and I was trying to remember when my age was. I think I was around 11 or 12, and there was two brothers in our ward, and one of them was bringing me, like, candy all the time. And obviously, as a kid, you don't realize this is grooming type behavior, but I knew my mom was concerned of, you know, him doing that. And then his brother was very into scouting. He was into the Order of the Arrow, and he was into the Dickens Festival and dealing a lot with kids, and he was really high up. I mean, I don't know. In Utah, I remember when you'd got the Arrow of Light, you know, they'd have the people come and do a little presentation. He was always the one that would Come. And so we had to go over to his house to pass off a merit badge. And I think it was not time, but I'm not sure. But anyways, we go over to his house, we pass off the merit badge, and I said, okay, I'll call my mom. He said, oh, I can give you a ride home, but if you do me a favor first. And so I'm like, oh, okay. And he goes, actually, I'm doing this Order of the Arrow, and I need someone to, like, model these clothes that were, like, Indian, like, loincloth type clothes. And so he had me go into the room, which he may have had camera. I don't know to this day, but I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, this was back in, you know, the late 80s, so. But so he had me put on this stuff. And I remember coming out and being very, very scared and feeling very uncomfortable. And I had, you know, this loincloth that had my underwear on underneath. He goes, oh, could you take those off? And I remember being like, no, I'm not taking those off. And he's like, oh, it'd be so much better if you. And I remember having this little back and forth with him. And then we ended up tucking him in, but it was extremely uncomfortable for me. And. And then on the way home, he gave me a ride home, and he said, hey, this is for a special. You know, these pictures are for a special thing. So don't, you know, don't let anyone know. Cause that we don't want this to get out. And obviously I was feeling shamed and really weird about it. So I'm like, I would not tell anyone that I just did that. And so I don't think I told a soul about that until several years later at Scout camp. One of the other boys in our Scout troop made a comment about it, and I said, oh, did he make you try that on? And I think it was like everyone had had the same experience. And then he had gotten caught actually abusing. I think his brother and him actually had been caught, been abused him. And he spent some time in jail later. But who knows how many, you know, kids were affected by that. And again, I share this story not because it was. I feel like I did not have, you know, severe abuse, but I think that potential was certainly there. I think another thing is just. Just how rampant was this in the church? You know, I mean, I. I think that it probably is much more rampant than. Than we know.
John Dehlin [00:12:09] Did you happen to hear my episode with Chris Swallow from a few years Back?
Jeff Kindred [00:12:13] I don't think so.
John Dehlin [00:12:15] It's a. We'll include it in the show notes. It's an episode where he goes to like an uncle and the uncle takes him into a shed and he's got like a stack of sheepskin rugs. And he tells his nephew or whatever the guy's name is Lowell Robinson. And he. And he, he says, I import sheepskin rugs and I need people to test them to tell me which ones are the softest. So will you strip down and take all your clothes off, roll around in the sheepskin rug and do it for several rugs and tell me which one's the softest? And he did that with Untold number.
Jeff Kindred [00:12:54] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:12:55] Yeah. And that's just.
Jeff Kindred [00:12:57] It's weird. And. And I'm sure. I'm sure he's looking for who will take off their underwear. I mean, I'm sure these are all the things that he's testing. Right. And doing this whole thing, I mean. Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:08] And we just did an episode with Tim kosnoff about, you know, 80, 000 boy skew sexual boy scout sexual abuse victims. And like 40% they estimate our Mormon kids. So, yeah, we're talking 32 to 100,000 victims of boy Scout sexual abuse. So we'll, we'll include a link to that episode. Anyway, anyway, it's a huge deal and I'm so sorry that happened to you. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Where does your Mormon story go next? That's not a fun part, but I'm glad you weren't abused. Maybe as bad as others.
Childhood Trauma and Mission Preparation
Margi Dehlin [00:13:40] And can I just ask with regard to this, so about what age were you?
Jeff Kindred [00:13:45] Yeah, I was trying. 11 or 12 would have been around that time. It could have been because I think it was Boy Scouts. I'm not sure about that. I think it was Boy scouts. So around 12ish, though. 12, maybe 13. Somewhere in that area.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:57] And so you had this experience where you felt just incredible, incredibly uncomfortable, and you just kind of held it to yourself for.
Jeff Kindred [00:14:07] Actually, I remember telling my mom about it after he had been caught with the other kids. I told my mom at that time that, yeah, he had done this thing to me and his brother was the one who was buying me. I mean, he showed up at my house with like this big backpack full of all this candy one time. And you know, as a kid, you're like, oh my gosh, he's so nice. Not recognizing or realizing that this is really not normal behavior for someone. So
Margi Dehlin [00:14:34] do you remember what came up for you as you kind of held this thing that happened to you that probably at that age, you had no idea how to think about it or how to sort of. Do you remember what it felt like and what you did with it and what if there were any beliefs or things that you told yourself around it?
Jeff Kindred [00:14:54] Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I think I was a confident enough kid and a stable enough kid that I don't. Besides remembering, like, the shame of, like, oh, my gosh, this is really embarrassing. I would never tell anyone I did this. I don't remember feeling like there was long term that I. That it's something that traumatized me long term from that. And I don't know if that's because of the stability and the confidence that I had or what it was, but I. But I do feel like that's. Yeah, I don't. I did. I don't go back and. And think that I can track, you know, some. Something that happened after that from it, which is. Which is, I think, very fortunate.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:32] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:34] All right. Well, dark stuff, but it's so common in people's Mormon journey.
Jeff Kindred [00:15:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:40] What. What comes next?
Jeff Kindred [00:15:44] So I guess growing up, going to Brighton High School, I mean, basketball is a huge part of my life at that point. A friend and I, we won the state championship when I was a senior. A friend and I played doubles, tennis, and one state championship in tennis as my senior year. And so those were really big folks.
John Dehlin [00:16:03] What year did you graduate from high school?
Jeff Kindred [00:16:05] 96.
John Dehlin [00:16:06] Okay. That's a big deal to. I mean, Utah cares about sports, especially football and basketball, so.
Jeff Kindred [00:16:11] Yeah, it was. It was my. Yeah, for sure. I mean, the. The most important thing to me at that time was did you play against
John Dehlin [00:16:18] players we would have heard of later, you know, playing at USU or BYU or any of that? U of you?
Jeff Kindred [00:16:24] Yeah. Who. Who would we have played against? Kevin. In a tournament we played at. Kevin Garnett was there. That was. That was back in.
John Dehlin [00:16:32] Wait.
Jeff Kindred [00:16:32] As a player, the old days. Well, like at a tournament. He was at the tournament that we were. I didn't play against him directly. Mike Bibby was one that we had played against. Who went to the pros and played for a while. Yeah, I played on a travel team and Jeff Johnson, who was a big player here in Utah, went pro and his brother, Britton Johnson. Jeff Johnson played on my team. Britton didn't play on it.
John Dehlin [00:16:55] But any of the guys that played at Division 1 schools in Utah.
Jeff Kindred [00:16:59] Yeah. So Jeff Johnson, Mike Vrains, Dave Nilsen went to byu. Josh Griffith was a teammate of mine who played in our team, and he went to Rick's college. And then. Yeah, so we had a bunch of us playing.
John Dehlin [00:17:10] Super fun. Well, that's fun. Okay, so tennis and basketball. Were you in academics at all? And then talk about seminary.
Jeff Kindred [00:17:19] Yeah, I think my academics, I always got pretty good grades. I think that it was never a huge focus of mine.
John Dehlin [00:17:28] I kind of.
Jeff Kindred [00:17:28] Kind of kicked myself. I feel like I did the bare minimum to get through, which probably is pretty common. You know, I never. I don't think I loved to learn when I was in high school, which I felt was a little unfortunate, but so I did. I always had, I mean, a good gpa. I think my worst class, I had an AP chemistry class with a strange teacher who it was, I think, my worst grade, and he told me that I was going to mess up. He never had anyone not pass the AP test, and so I was going to mess that up. But I got a three, so I passed it. And seminary, I think, was the same thing. I mean, seminary in Utah was part of our day. And so.
John Dehlin [00:18:07] Part of your school day?
Jeff Kindred [00:18:08] It's part of our school day. And so, I mean, a lot of times it was like, do we go to seminary or do we go to breakfast? And then I remember the teacher would, like, guilt you. Like, you get to give yourself your own grades, but it was almost like they're guilting you and did not. I think I gave myself like a B minus or a C or something in the seminary because. Because I didn't always go. So I was never a huge, huge person in seminary. And leading up to my mission, I went to Snow College for a year before and played basketball there before my mission and going through all of that, I had started the Book of Mormon a hundred times, but I had never gotten through the Book of Mormon until I think the first time was one of my first days in the mtc that I finished it finally for the first time.
John Dehlin [00:18:59] So what was your testimony like? Maybe graduating from high school and preparing for your mission. How would you have described your testimony?
Jeff Kindred [00:19:07] Yeah, you know, surprisingly, I think it was pretty strong. I mean, I never had an experience that gave me a testimony, but I prayed regularly. I think, you know, during this time. I guess this is another important thing to bring up now was, you know, when you're going through, when you're growing up lds and a huge thing is the For Strength of Youth pamphlet. And so when, you know, they talk about masturbation and they talk about petting and heavy petting, and no one ever tells you what those things were. They just assume that you know what those things are. And so when I was little, and I remember being quite little and, you know, pushing against blankets as a kid and not realizing that this felt good and there was no sexual part of this, but not realizing, you know, as I got older, doing that was masturbating until I was, like, 14. And I remember recognizing, oh, my gosh, I'm masturbating, and then feeling so much guilt and shame over it. And so, you know, you go into the. You go into the bishop and you tell him that you're, you know, yeah, I've masturbated. And then you're like, I'm never gonna do it again. Right? I'm never gonna do this again. And then you come out, and inevitably you do it again. And then you're in this crossroads that I think so many young men in the church face, which is like, o, do I go into the bishop repeatedly? Because at least what I was told was, when you go to the bishop and you repent, those sins are gone unless you do it again. And then they, like, all come back. And so I think there was this idea that I remember recognizing and realizing that, yes, you know, I'm actually masturbating even. No one had ever told me what that meant. And so that became like a, I think, a big source of shame and guilt that I've recognized now that started. I think the pattern of what we do in the church is we bury it. We decide that, no, we're going to kind of push this down under and present this other part of ourself. And I think that's. And I really do. I trace that back to that young age when I was doing that, and then feeling guilt and shame every time, you know, every time you do it, and you get this flood of guilt and shame. And it's so terrible because this is something that obviously God, if there's a God that we've been given to relieve stress and to relieve pressure. And every time you're associating this with guilt and shame and these feelings. And so I think that is a huge, huge part of, you know, my story, and where we'll get to later,
John Dehlin [00:21:57] is that you're a physician now. And I'm just curious if in the medical community there's a consensus on the health of something like masturbation or if it's just never discussed.
Jeff Kindred [00:22:07] Well, that. I'd say that's outside of my realm, but absolutely, I don't think anyone would. That's. That's that's studied. I mean, either from a mental health perspective or a physician perspective, you know, would say that that's not a healthy thing to do. I mean. Yeah, I think it's pretty well known.
John Dehlin [00:22:23] Unless.
Jeff Kindred [00:22:24] Unless they're Mormons. I mean, I think. I mean, I think they're the only ones holding on strong. Well, maybe. Maybe some of the other evangelical or, you know, hard line, high demand. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:22:34] Okay. Okay. So you were subject to the shame cycle.
Jeff Kindred [00:22:39] Oh, man.
John Dehlin [00:22:39] Mormon shame cycle. Absolutely. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:41] And.
Jeff Kindred [00:22:42] And. And I think that I didn't recognize how deep these layers went until, you know, our story, until we started to break it down a few years ago. But I definitely think that was the seeds, the beginning of this, like, forcing things underground that I think is rampant in the church. I mean, I really do. I think it is so. So common in the church to. And you learn it at that age because you have to make that decision. You know, am I gonna go into my bishop every time I do this, or am I gonna. Am I gonna either lie about it, or am I gonna find some way to rationalize it in my brain? Which I think is what I usually, you know, tried to do is rationalize it.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:21] It.
John Dehlin [00:23:22] Okay, so that was leading up to your decision to put in your papers for your mission.
Jeff Kindred [00:23:28] Yeah. Yeah. So I went to snow college, spent a year at snow, and then. And then went on a mission. And. And I mean, the. The mission, when we talk about privilege, I mean, I think I. Being white and being CIS and being very competitive, I mean, a mission is made for a person like me. Right. And I excelled at the mission. I mean, it was really. I mean, I feel like I was stressed out my entire mission from the time I stepped down to the time I left, because I felt like I couldn't do enough. And if I. And the people that I would miss if I wasn't working every day, all day long, I mean, I really feel like I was probably a miserable companion for a lot of the guys that I served with because I was so rigid and strict, and I really think I got very much indoctrinated, you know, And I think that's what the point of it is right out at that age, to try and get you indoctrinated and get you, you know, all in. And I was definitely, definitely all in in my mission.
John Dehlin [00:24:36] Yeah. So do you want to just. Just give us kind of the. The highlights, lowlights of your mission, and then maybe we'll switch over to Larissa? Well, I mean, where were you?
Jeff's Mission in the Deep South
Jeff Kindred [00:24:49] Oh, Jackson, Mississippi. Was the mission. Oh, yeah. So we covered all of. All of Louisiana and most of Mississippi. Mississippi and even into Texarkana, Texas.
John Dehlin [00:24:58] That was a hotbed for the civil rights movement.
Jeff Kindred [00:24:59] Huge. It was, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:25:00] You would have noticed that on your mission.
Jeff Kindred [00:25:02] Yeah, absolutely. And it was. I mean, it's really when I realized that, man, racism was alive and well on my mission. I mean, you really, really see that
John Dehlin [00:25:11] firsthand in Mormonism or just in Mississippi?
Jeff Kindred [00:25:14] Oh, in Mormonism, absolutely. No, it was really challenging. I mean, so many of the people I served in a lot of, you know, inner city areas, and. And so we're teaching a lot of African Americans, and it was a huge, huge struggle. I mean, there's. So most churches are still segregated in the South. I mean, even in Tennessee, where we are, a lot of churches are still segregated.
John Dehlin [00:25:34] Do you mean LDS churches?
Jeff Kindred [00:25:35] No, no, I'm talking just churches in general. And so they ask you, is this a white church or a black church? And even though churches wouldn't. Wouldn't tell you they're segregated, I mean, the white people go to this one and the black people go to this one, and that's, you know, still. And so. So that was challenging to overcome.
John Dehlin [00:25:52] Do you have any stories where you encountered LDS racism on your mission? And if you don't, that's fine?
Jeff Kindred [00:25:59] Well, yeah, so I was in Monroe, Louisiana, and there was a member who had been baptized, and he was the moored mission leader. And he told us that he had a really, really hard time with, you know, with us teaching African American people or doing that. And we actually had an African American family in the bishopric at that time. And I said, well, what about this family? Said, oh, they're not black. Like, he considered them white. Which was really interesting that, you know, he didn't consider them black or African American at all, which is. And there's, you know, a whole.
John Dehlin [00:26:36] It's like if I'm friends with them, they're okay, but it's all the rest of them.
Jeff Kindred [00:26:39] Well, and I think it went deeper than that. That probably were fitting the mold. You know, like, he. He saw them as they were. They were acting like white people. And so therefore they could. They weren't considered white people.
Larissa Kindred [00:26:50] Were they kind of. Were they kind of. Well to do and. Yeah, more affluent? And so. So he. Yeah, so he had kind of used to say, like, that's not. That's not black. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:01] How did you. Did you ever get asked, Wait, you know, you're. You're teaching, you're running in, you're tracking black people, African Americans would you ever get the question, wait, didn't, isn't the Mormon Church racist? Or didn't the Mormon Church keep black people from having the priesthood or have them be second class citizens? You know? Yeah, and how did, how were you taught or how did you grow to answer those questions when you'd get them?
Jeff Kindred [00:27:27] Gosh, you know, I, I don't think it's, it's so sad, but I did not, I don't think I did like a deep dive into it at that point. I just assumed that, oh God, God said it was okay. And you know, we'd always talk about, in the Bible, in the New Testament when Peter was told he could now go to the Gentiles and that was just, we don't understand why, you know, they couldn't go to him before, but now they could.
John Dehlin [00:27:49] And so let's role play. So I'm, I'm, so, I'm a, I'm a person of color on your mission and I ask you the question, will you tell me what you would have said? Like I, are you comfortable?
Jeff Kindred [00:28:03] Because, so I, that's all I'll just
John Dehlin [00:28:06] say, I'll say, hey, I hear you guys used to keep people like us from having the priesthood. How can you explain it? Pretend, pretend you're answering me.
Jeff Kindred [00:28:13] Yeah. So in the New Testament, when Jesus sent his apostles out to share the gospel and he told them first to go to the Jews, the Jewish people, and then later he told them to go to the Gentiles. And we don't understand why that was, but we know that it came after the fact. And so we don't understand why God wouldn't allow black people to have the priesthood. But the great news is now he does. I mean, and honestly, most people wouldn't know enough to ask that question. There were people that would ask that question. And I actually have a pretty vivid memory of the bishop in one of those wards. His, I believe it was, his brother's wife was black. And I remember we ate dinner at their house one Sunday and she shared her testimony about it and it was really quite touching. You know, she was saying how important this was to her. But again, it's so unfortunate because you don't realize how arrogant you are. As you know, you're sent out there to teach, not to be taught. You know, they tell you that, you know, you're here to teach, you're not to be taught and you think as a 19 year old that you have all of life's answers to all of the questions.
John Dehlin [00:29:27] What did they teach You.
Jeff Kindred [00:29:28] Right. And it's just. I feel like, again, I feel like this is part of the pathway we set. Mormon men especially, although I think women too, but Mormon men especially, we set them on this path of, you're better, you're more important, you know more, you have all of the keys to eternal life. And I think it's so harmful and it's so dangerous. And I realize that now, and I. Gosh, it's just. It's just so bad. Another thing that I should mention, and I think one of your guests recently had talked about Lauren C. Dunn coming to the mission. I can't remember who that was, but he came to our mission and it was. I was with my first companion and my first companion. I drove him nuts. He was having a hard time and didn't want to. He was having some injuries, and so was having a hard time working, and I was just driving him crazy. And then Lawrence E. Dunn came to the mission and he told us, he said, you're here to find the blood of Israel. So when someone answers the door, you share with them that you're a representative of Jesus Christ and you've come to invite them to be baptized into Jesus Christ Church. And he said, and then you ask them to come in and give a prayer. You ask them you want to give a prayer, a blessing on their home. And then if they let you, when you get done with the blessing, you then tell them that God wants you. He said, they'll be crying. And then God wants you to be a member of his church. We invite you to be baptized. And this became the mantra that we lived by. And I mean, this was. And then I'll never. I'll never forget this, too. When. When he gave his testimony, Lauren C. Dunn, you know, you have all the missionaries there, and he's giving his testimony, and he says at the very end, he's. He's sharing his testimony. At the end, he said, I know God lives. And then he, like, pauses for like. And he starts getting a little bit louder. I know God lives. He said it like 12 times until the end. It was so strong. I honestly thought, this guy has seen Jesus. I. That that's what he's inferring. That's what he wants me to believe. Right? And I. And at that point in my life, I had no doubt that he had. I mean, that's how in it I was. And I feel like, you know, at that point, you're wanting to climb up, starting to climb up that ladder of leadership. And I became an AP in the mission. And I was really close with my president. I actually was given a blessing before I left that I would be in the leadership of the mission and that. And they told me that I would have greater things than even my dad. My dad was a bishop at the time or something like that. I mean, so.
John Dehlin [00:32:06] So you're going to be an apostle?
Jeff Kindred [00:32:08] Well, yeah, absolutely.
Larissa Kindred [00:32:10] Steve McConkey is the one that gave me a blessing.
Jeff Kindred [00:32:13] No, no, no. He was in the stake president. He was my young men's president.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:15] Steve.
Jeff Kindred [00:32:16] Bruce Armaconki, So Bruce Armaconki's son.
Larissa Kindred [00:32:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:32:18] Okay.
Jeff Kindred [00:32:18] So he.
John Dehlin [00:32:19] Yeah. So you were in it to win it.
Jeff Kindred [00:32:21] I was in it to win it, man. I was in it to win it.
John Dehlin [00:32:25] Did you ever end up baptizing any black men or women?
Jeff Kindred [00:32:28] Absolutely.
Larissa Kindred [00:32:29] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:32:29] I think of the people that I baptized, I mean, more were African American than were white.
John Dehlin [00:32:39] Any idea if any of them are still active or not?
Jeff Kindred [00:32:41] You know, so one of the women that I baptized, she actually came out and went and I feel, you know, I kept telling her, if you can just get to the temple, then you'll know. This is just. I feel like it's so. I have such. These mixed emotions about doing this. So she came out and went through the temple with my family while I was on a mission, and I think she came out and visited once afterwards, too, her and her son. And then her mom ended up getting baptized as well. They were in a Pentecostal church before, and. And she's not in anymore. I know that. And I don't know of anyone who is. It's really, really challenging. I mean, the church is really hard to be a part of, and in the south and in the. You know, she lives out in the country in the south, and it's hard to stay faithful. She stayed faithful and active for a while, and then I think that branch ended up getting dissolved that they were
John Dehlin [00:33:46] a part of, so. Okay. Okay. So anything else before we. We switch over to Larissa? Just about your. Your life up through your mission.
Jeff Kindred [00:33:58] So. So I think this is important to mention, you know, as I had gone through my upbringing and. And. And always struggled with. With masturbation and as part of my story and then on the mission, I, like, squelched that thing out of me. I mean, there was no, like, thought of it. And I think this is important again for later, because I think I thought I was crushing it, not realizing that, God, I mean, we're given our sexuality for a reason, and squelching it out isn't necessarily a Good thing, either. I shouldn't say that. I say it's not a good thing either. It's definitely not. Because, you know, I think, again, I think you have this thing in the church where you have a certain low percentage of men who can do this. They can squelch their sexuality out completely, and they think that they're killing it. They're doing so great. But that's still dysfunctional. Whether it's dysfunction from the shame and the guilt and doing it, or it's dysfunction from squelching it out, there's dysfunction either side. And I think we'll get into that later.
Margi Dehlin [00:35:02] Such a good point.
John Dehlin [00:35:04] That was me.
Jeff Kindred [00:35:09] So this is interesting. I'll just put this ultimate, because I don't know if I'll remember it later. I was talking fairly a few months ago with a friend who I was friends with in high school, and I was like, you know that you masturbated, right? I mean, you masturbated. And he said, no, I never did till after my mission. And I'm like, are you serious? You never did? And I go, you never, like, rubbed against it? He's like, oh, yeah. But I never orgasmed. So, again, these are the circles we play or the rationalization we do with ourselves, Right? Is that in the. I mean, it's just, like, soaking. It's like these weird things we do so that we can say, no, I never masturbated. I just, like, I just did it up until the point that I had to orgasm. I never orgasm. So I can say. I can answer it truthfully. I mean, how ridiculous is it? It's so. It's just so. It's so terrible and dysfunctional.
Margi Dehlin [00:35:52] Yeah. So true.
John Dehlin [00:35:54] Okay.
Jeff Kindred [00:35:55] Did I miss anything?
Larissa Kindred [00:35:56] No. I just want to add one thing that we talk about a lot is, you know, Jeff had mentioned his family was, you know, like. I wouldn't say they were just, like, super hardcore intense lds, but you feel like your mission almost, like, put you in the mode of, like, I'm gonna go hard with this. I, like, sometimes we'll even use the word it radic kind of radicalized you because he. He was super, super intense. Super, you know, just like, follow the every single rule, and then you were rewarded for it. So he was consistently put in leadership for that type of behavior. And so we kind of. When we talk about this, this is something that I know you identify a lot is that. Is that you get rewarded for being that type. And do you want to tell your story about exercise? Because I feel like this is a Good. It's a good way to understand, like, this type of scrupulosity on a mission
Jeff Kindred [00:36:52] to the level that it went. So at the end of my mission.
Larissa Kindred [00:36:56] Well, you had, like, exercise was really important to you.
Jeff Kindred [00:37:00] Yeah, So I got up my whole mission at 5am to work out. I mean, I'd get up at 5, and then I'd. And then I'd start reading my scriptures at six. And I mean, I was just. And most my companions, I would, you know, make get up with me. One of my companions, I think, lost 35 pounds in, like, the four months I was with them because I was eating, like, not healthy. I mean, by this standards, they weren't healthy. But I was trying to stick to this called the Zone diet. It was kind of a fad diet back then. But so. So at the end of my mission, I was in as an assistant and the mission president's wife, who was wonderful, she and I had a very good relationship. She has passed, but she gave a talk about what are we willing to sacrifice? What are we willing to sacrifice to be better missionaries? And so I started to think that God required me to sacrifice my hour of exercise. That this was, like, something that it was like. It was so important to me that God wanted me to, like, give that up. And so I had my companion, like, give me a blessing. And I did. I, like. I, like, quit. I think I quit doing any, like, lifting the last month. I think I'd still go jogging, like, sometimes, but the last little bit. And again, I think this just emphasizes, like, how powerful these things in our mind. I mean, I really felt like this was the spirit, like, talking to me. And, you know, on my mission, I think I had what I would consider extremely spiritual experiences. And the thing that's so fascinating to me now is I have these experiences, but I'm no longer a member. You know, like, how do you explain that? This feeling that you have, that I'm convinced is human connection, and I have it with my patients on a daily basis and sometimes stronger than other times. But, you know, as a mission, you're thinking it's telling you that. That the church is true and that the Book of Mormon is true. And honestly, when you're out on a mission and you're connecting with people, it's almost inevitable you're gonna have these feelings and then it's gonna drill this into you again, make you more rigid. But, yes, it's true. When I came home from my mission, I felt like I was extremely judgmental of my own family. You know, we weren't going hard enough. They weren't doing all the things. And I think I almost put my mission president and his wife up on the. This pedestal of like, this is what it should look like. And I mean, it's just, yeah, layers of not healthy. But again, it was made for me. I mean, these are. And I still think I had trauma from my mission now as I go back and unpack it. But I think that the mission experience was made for people like me. And I did. I excelled at it. And, you know, I feel bad for so many people that. That it's so miserable for. Because I know that it is.
John Dehlin [00:39:51] You know, nowadays, so many missionaries are coming home and conversion rates are so small, retention rates are so small. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the missions are for the missionaries, not. Not as much for converts.
Jeff Kindred [00:40:07] You know, I had a call last week out of the blue. I used to be our stake young men's president. So I got a call out of the blue, and he said, hey, this is so. And so I'm on my mission right now. And I thought, oh, boy, he's going to, like, try. He heard I left the church. He's going to try and convert me. He said, I'm really. He said, I don't believe it and I don't know what to do. And he's like, I knew you had left, so I just needed to talk to someone. And he called me from his mission to say that. Which I just thought, oh, gosh, I just couldn't imagine being out there and. And doing that.
John Dehlin [00:40:40] Yeah. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:41] It's so interesting as you're describing in detail how, like, who you became on your mission, because it. On a level, it feels like an altered reality, but then it also feels like you were in an altered state in that reality, like the. So optimized. So on a level disconnected from kind of your inner. Anything inner and just hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. Yes.
Larissa Kindred [00:41:10] Yep.
Jeff Kindred [00:41:11] I remember going. And this. This is. I mean, just the level that I was at. So I would do zone conferences and people would come in. You'd stay in someone's flat, you know, that night. And I remember some of the guys would be like, wrestling or playing, and I'd be reading my scriptures almost as like to, like, to prove a point, like, I'm above you. Like, I mean, it's so toxic and terrible, but again, this is what it does. Everything is a hierarchy, right? And we're always constantly trying to be the top of the hierarchy. And I really Excelled at that. I mean, it's something that I really excelled at and I'm not proud of that at this point, but it really is true. Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:41:47] Yeah. Yeah. And it works until it kind of falls apart. Yeah, yeah. But I bet by the end of your mission, you're feeling like it was the best thing you ever did, right?
Jeff Kindred [00:41:59] I did. And you know, I came home from my mission and I think I was so glad to be done because of the stress I put on myself to be so busy and like every second, if I didn't take advantage of it, someone would not have the gospel and then it was my fault. I mean, and again, I think these are the things you hear that again are toxic. That is not a nice way to live your life. And so for me, coming home from my mission was like, oh my gosh, I don't have to be on level 10, like every day, you know, all the time. And then I could just start being very judgmental of everyone, which was nice.
John Dehlin [00:42:36] Yeah, perfect. But coming home from your mission, you were converted and committed to the church, is that right?
Jeff Kindred [00:42:41] Oh, absolutely, big time. And you know, I do think I want to emphasize this thing that it's so terrible to think that we are better. We have more knowledge, we have more understanding. I was never told, go find out about these people in the South. You know, go find out what they believe and like how they believe it. And no, it was always like, you're here to teach, you're here to baptize. And as a 19 year old kid, sending them out with that information is just not healthy. You know, like, I just think of like how great it is for kids to travel the world and like see how other people live. But a mission is not that you're sent out there with the, with the role that you know more than these people, you are better than these people. You know, I know they don't say that, but it's inferred and like, you know, you have what they need and you're their ticket to salvation and you're their ticket to the celestial kingdom. And I just think it's, it's really bad messaging.
John Dehlin [00:43:39] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:43:40] And I think to be in that setting where you're with, you know, you're in a lot of like inner city areas and to not, I'm just laughing now to think like to not understand what systemic poverty does to people or systemic racism, like how this is effect, like to just totally be like, that doesn't, that doesn't matter. Only what I know about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon matters. I mean, it's just. You're just going into that with so little information about what is real, what people are really experiencing.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:09] Yeah, it's like lost opportunity to connect,
Larissa Kindred [00:44:13] to really see, because it could be. It could be that.
Jeff Kindred [00:44:16] But, yeah, I never once heard anyone ever on my mission talk about, you know, why is racism, you know, this way? Or why is this built into the system? Or why are these people in this situation? It was only. The only way for them to get out was to give them the gospel. Right. That was their only ticket to getting out of the situation that they're in,
John Dehlin [00:44:37] which it's kind of cultural colonialism.
Jeff Kindred [00:44:42] Oh, absolutely.
Larissa Kindred [00:44:44] Yeah, absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:45] I have a quick question. So when you got home from your mission this time of like, optimizing, constant hustling, feeling this sense of really over responsibility to everyone else around you. Right. Were you. How did you feel? Were you on fire?
Larissa Kindred [00:45:04] Did you feel exhausted?
Margi Dehlin [00:45:05] Like, how did you feel coming out of that?
Jeff Kindred [00:45:08] Well, I think that I. Thank goodness that's over. I was not someone who wanted my mission. I wasn't one of these guys who was like, I long for my mission. I didn't because I felt like it was just so much stress for me. But, yes, coming home was. I mean, I think that I still was very much on fire and trying to, you know, read my scriptures every day and still get up at 5am every day. And. And I mean, I still kept a pretty regimented schedule for a long time after that.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:43] Yeah. So remnants. You had remnants that you kept that sort of.
Jeff Kindred [00:45:47] Hyper. Yeah, hyper.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:48] Disciplined.
John Dehlin [00:45:49] Hyper.
Larissa Kindred [00:45:51] And then you went back to snow, and then you were called as the Elders Quorum president right after his mission. And so again, I think this is continually being validated.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:02] Reinforced.
Larissa Kindred [00:46:03] Reinforced, yeah. Positive. I'm going hard, and then they put
Jeff Kindred [00:46:06] me in leadership, and now I climb that ladder. And that. That's the validation. Yes, that's, I think, a huge, huge part of the church that.
John Dehlin [00:46:13] Yeah. I mean, the flip side is you get identity, you get morality, you get spirituality, you get meaning, you get purpose, you get direction. And so I guess there's two sides to that coin, right?
Jeff Kindred [00:46:26] Yeah, you get guilt and you get shame.
John Dehlin [00:46:29] And.
Jeff Kindred [00:46:30] And. And. Yeah, yeah, but you're right.
Larissa Kindred [00:46:34] There is two sides, and you do become somewhat. I mean, you are getting validated from an external source. So, you know, like, I don't know if that's. I mean, I don't think that's the healthiest form of being validated. And so, you know, you may get purpose, but is It. Not exactly what you should be getting your purpose from.
John Dehlin [00:46:56] I bet we're gonna get there in your story.
Larissa Kindred [00:47:01] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:47:02] But. Yeah, that's beautiful. All right, well, Jeff, thanks for telling the beginnings of your story. If there's something we left out, we can come back to it. Sure. Right?
Jeff Kindred [00:47:10] Yeah.
Larissa's Japanese-American Heritage and Family
John Dehlin [00:47:11] All right, Larissa, I'm ready. You ready?
Margi Dehlin [00:47:13] I'm ready.
John Dehlin [00:47:14] All right, let's go back. Maybe even to your grandparents. Where does your Mormon story begin?
Larissa Kindred [00:47:21] Well, so I have. So I have pioneer heritage on one side, so on my mom's side, we have pioneer heritage. In fact, I'm. So Zina Huntington was a. I think she was the third wife of Joseph Smith, and then when he died, she was given to Brigham Young. So she was also. And she. She was also married to somebody else. So she was married to somebody else. And then. And then she was sealed to Joseph Smith. So anyway, so her younger brother is Oliver Boardman Huntington, and he's kind of like a pioneer name because he also was a polygamist. So there was. There's a lot of people that come from him. So I'm. I'm come from Oliver Boardman Huntington. So on. On one side of my family, we have strong, you know, pioneer roots, and I grew up hearing pioneer stories. And then. Yeah. So the other side. So that's my mom's side. And then on the other, on my dad. My dad is Japanese American. So. And a lot of times when you. When you hear about a mixed race Asian couple, you assume that the mother is Asian and the father is white. That's a kind of a common sort of stereotypical relationship. But my mind's mind slips. So my mom is white, and then my dad is Japanese, so. So his. So my great grandparents, actually, maybe this would be great. Great. But anyways, they. So they came when there was kind of a wave of Japanese immigration in the early 1900s, and it was because. It was actually because of the Chinese Exclusion Act. So they were. They thought there were too many Chinese coming, and so they said, we can't take any more Chinese people in the United States. And so it kind of opened the door for Japanese people to come. And so they came in the early 1900s. And. Yeah, so they were. They were here. My. My grandparents were Buddhist, and they came
John Dehlin [00:49:14] to work on the railroads.
Larissa Kindred [00:49:15] They. So they came. They came to farm Northern California. So. So. So my first. First, the people who first came, I. They were involved in, like, the fishing industry, so they lived in, I think, the Bay Area.
John Dehlin [00:49:26] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:49:27] And, like, were involved in the fishing industry. And then I know that I've done a little bit of research on this. There was, there was some Japanese businessman that kind of created some farming opportunities in like central Utah. And so it brought a lot of Japanese immigrants actually into kind of like the, the Mormon belt. So. Yeah, so my, so they, they'd been here. So my Japanese family had been here for a little bit. And then my grandpa was, was 19 years old when Pearl harbor was bombed.
John Dehlin [00:50:05] 41.
Larissa Kindred [00:50:06] 41, yeah. So December 41st, Pearl harbor is bombed. And obviously, you know, it kind of like creates this whole wave of anti Japanese sentiment. So by February of 42, you have the executive order, which is 9066 that said that all Japanese people, they'd kind of like designated like these are zones that you. That Japanese people cannot be, so you need to leave them. So at first they were just like, you have to go. And then it kind of go back to Japan. No, you just had to, you had to go in like to the. Yeah, you leave the area. So you. It was like the east coast and the West Coast. So I think they didn't want them in areas where, I don't know, they could be involved in signaling or anything like that where they could like welcome any type of foreign threat.
John Dehlin [00:50:55] So they pushed them inland.
Larissa Kindred [00:50:57] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:50:58] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:50:58] So. So yeah, so they made these, you know, they made these camps and they're all over. There's. There's one in Wyoming, there's. There's one in Idaho. There's Topaz, which is in Utah. And so, yeah, there's, there's quite a few camps, 150,000 around. Around that number. Japanese people of Japanese descent were. Were relocated. Were relocated off the west coast and then put in the camps. And I think more than two thirds of them were American citizens. So some of them were immigrants that had just come and couldn't get citizenship yet. But most of them had been born here. And so my grandpa is one of these people. So he was born in the United States and had American citizenship and then he was relocated.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:45] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:51:45] And do you know where in Utah, where Topaz is?
Larissa Kindred [00:51:49] Yeah, I don't know exactly. I know that we, we. We've been out of Utah for a long time. Most of our adult life, we haven't lived Utah. My. I know that my siblings have all gone. There's a, There's a memorial and a museum at Topaz now. And I haven't been to it, but
John Dehlin [00:52:04] so it looks like it might be western Utah kinda.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:08] It's like, I know it's just out in the middle.
John Dehlin [00:52:10] It's kind of central western Utah. That's what Google's telling me.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:15] Yeah. Topaz internment campsite is near Delta.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:20] Oh, okay.
John Dehlin [00:52:21] Yeah. Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:22] And so you're saying there were potentially over a hundred thousand Japanese Americans primarily interned in the 1940s in Western Central Utah?
Larissa Kindred [00:52:34] Yeah. Not just. I don't know how many Topaz would have had, but they would have been. They would have been spread around. And then one of the biggest ones is Manzanar, and that's in California. That had. That had quite a few Japanese. So that one. That one is one that's mentioned a lot.
John Dehlin [00:52:48] So are you saying your grandpa was in these camps?
Larissa Kindred [00:52:50] So my grandpa didn't go to a camp. So this is interesting. So my grandpa. This is kind of our family folklore is that my grandpa was working. I think he was, you know, 19 years old, and he really quick.
John Dehlin [00:53:01] Did your great grandparents go to a concentration camp?
Larissa Kindred [00:53:05] No, so. No. So they did it. Yeah. So my. So I believe that just my great grandma was alive at the time. So my grandpa, he was working and his car was in the shop, and they told everybody, like, you've got to go. You've got to, like, check into one of these places, these, like, war relocation offices. And so. But nobody would fix his car because he was Japanese. And so they just, like, people refused. Like, they just wouldn't do it. It was just so tense after, like, Pearl Harbor. And so they had to get, like, the military, like a military person involved to tell someone to go fix his car so that he could be relocated.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:49] It's just.
Larissa Kindred [00:53:49] It's like, really sad. But anyway, so they actually had a. A family sponsor them. So this is something that you could do. A family could vouch for you and say, like, we take responsibility for these people. We know them. We know that they're safe. And then if anything happens, we. We will take responsibility for this. So. So there. So my grandpa's family had another. A white family, vouch for them.
John Dehlin [00:54:13] Where?
Larissa Kindred [00:54:14] In Idaho.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:14] Oh, and was that a common.
Larissa Kindred [00:54:17] Was that everywhere that you.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:19] You could.
Larissa Kindred [00:54:19] You could do that. You could do that. But it didn't happen very. It didn't happen very commonly.
John Dehlin [00:54:24] Was that an LDS Idaho family?
Larissa Kindred [00:54:26] I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:54:27] Okay, that's fine.
Larissa Kindred [00:54:28] I. I'm. I would be interested to know that. But, yeah, I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:54:31] Were they LDs at this point?
Larissa Kindred [00:54:33] They were not.
John Dehlin [00:54:34] Okay. Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:54:35] Yeah, they were not. So.
John Dehlin [00:54:37] So may I just make one quick. Tell one quick story?
Larissa Kindred [00:54:40] Yes, please.
John Dehlin [00:54:41] I was at. At BYU as a student, and you know, for me, it was like Dorothy going to Oz. I grew up in Texas as a Mormon, but, like, BYU is like the Mecca. And I remember my professor Lynn England, in an honors colloquium class at BYU telling the story that when he was a boy growing up in Utah, his Mormon family, during the war, during World War II, would all get down on their knees and say prayers. And he said that in their prayers, they would say, dear only Father, please bless all your children, except for the Japs and the Germans. And I know that's an offensive story, but I was shocked when I heard it. But I think it's important to convey that a loving Mormon family that was very Christian during this time, faithful, good people that would enter their prayers. That's just how intense the anti German and Japanese sentiment was.
Larissa Kindred [00:55:41] Yeah. Yeah. I think. I don't. I. I laugh not because it. Yeah, it's not funny at all, but it. I think that it's not. That's not an uncommon thing. And I. I'm pretty sure that it was the governor of Idaho that said this. So there's a really good book if, if anyone's interested in learning more about the internment. It's called Infamy. And it's a guy that is a reporter that actually just did a deep dive into, like, everything that happened and who are the players and who was helpful and who is not helpful and, you know, like, who are the activists, what happened. So it's a really good book. But I think it was the governor of Idaho when they interviewed or, you know, like, I think he was like, at a press conference talking about the camps and what they were doing. And I think maybe somebody questioned him about, like, these are US Citizens. And he said, he said, a Jap is always a Japanese. And it was. So it was the same thing. It was just like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If you live here, you're bad, you know, like, to your core. And so this is kind of the America that my grandfather grew up in. And I didn't know this till recently, but my. So my grandma, she was actually. Her family came to the States and went to central Utah. So she wasn't part of the relocation because she wasn't West Coast. But my sister had told me recently that, that after the, After Pearl harbor, they had a lot of the cities were kind of. Would get kind of intense or stressed out if they had Japanese citizens. And so I think some of the city officials had asked them to give up any weapons that they had or anything that could possibly be a weapon. And some of that even included farm equipment. So they had to kind of, I don't know, surrender their farm equipment. And this wasn't. This was in central Utah is, you know, small town central Utah, which was probably mostly lds. And so that's what. That was my grandma's story. So she wasn't interned or relocated, but that's what happened to them. And then my grandpa was actually relocated into. To. To Idaho.
John Dehlin [00:57:51] Yeah. And that's, you know, that's in my parents lifetime. So it's not like this is five generations removed. This is literally one generation up for me.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:00] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:58:00] And that shapes all of us. So it's a. It's a.
Larissa Kindred [00:58:02] It's crazy.
John Dehlin [00:58:03] It's a very significant thing that you're talking about.
Larissa Kindred [00:58:05] Yeah, yeah. So my grandpa. So after they wouldn't let the Japanese fight in the war, and I think that so many Japanese people wanted to prove that they were loyal. You know, this is the only place that my grandpa had ever lived. And so they wouldn't let the Japanese fight in the war. And then. And then eventually they formed an all Japanese, like, military army unit. And they're the 442nd. And so they're one of the most highly decorated units in the army. And there's like a PBS documentary about them. And they're. Anyway, so my grandpa fought with the 442nd in World War II after. Yeah, after. After this, like, happened to him. So he fought with a 442nd and they sent them to Germany. I think he was in. Maybe in France and Germany because they. They were still worried that maybe they couldn't fight Japanese people. And so they wouldn't send them to, you know, the Asian action. They sent them to Europe. So. So yeah, my grandpa fought in the war and then. Yeah. And then came home and then he met my grandma and they. And they. They settled in Utah. So they stayed in Utah.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:16] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:59:17] Yeah. And do you know where in Utah?
Larissa Kindred [00:59:20] So I don't. So they lived in Linden, just right by Pleasant Grove. Yeah. Utah County. I don't. I don't know if they always lived there.
John Dehlin [00:59:30] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:30] But that's. That they had lived there. I think they lived there for a long time.
John Dehlin [00:59:34] Did they join the church?
Larissa Kindred [00:59:36] No. So this is. This is kind of an interesting story about how my dad becomes a member of the church. So they have three kids and. And this was very common with, I think, especially with Asian American families because of the racism that they had experienced. They worked really hard to Americanize their kids. And I Feel like it's maybe one of the greatest tragedies of my life because there's so much culture loss because things weren't passed down to connect us with who we are and where our, where our people came from.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:11] Yes.
Larissa Kindred [01:00:12] So my grandma and grandpa spoke Japanese as their first language and they never spoke Japanese to their kids. So imagine having kids and you're trying to connect with them, you're trying to raise them, and you, you don't even speak. You, you won't even speak your language. The one that you're most comfortable with, the one that you, you know, are probably most able to communicate with. They, they would not speak. So my dad doesn't, my dad is full Japanese and he doesn't speak a word of Japanese. So they would not speak Japanese to their kids. And they have really classic names like Carol and Mike. And because they, you know, like people, you know, white people can't say Asian names. I mean, now they're probably better at.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:54] But that is so interesting though, that connection with a trauma. Oh yeah. Just sort of like trying to, trying to create safety for yourself in a place that has all of a sudden turned incredibly threatening. It's turned against you.
Larissa Kindred [01:01:12] Yeah. And it's just so sad because, you know, I think my generation, I think we are trying to understand our identity and what this means for us because, you know, I'm Asian, but I, there's a lot of things that I don't connect with about being Asian, but there's also times that I have felt othered by, you know, by being growing up in a very Caucasian area. And so it's, it's a hard thing to try to like, work out what, what is my identity? And usually you really rely on your grandparents to connect you with this identity. And they felt like they couldn't do that because of the experiences that they had. And so it's just, I feel like I'm part of a generation that we are almost like reeling from this loss of culture and kind of trying to like, flesh out what our identity is. And so I feel like I know a lot of other, you know, third and fourth generation Asian Americans who are really trying to like, reconnect and say, like, what is this? And, and, and that's, that's kind of part of my story. This is kind of like, I kind of have an Asian renaissance. That happens to me after, after we adopt our kids.
John Dehlin [01:02:25] And so, so yeah, and maybe a Mormon who. Or an LDS church member who's not super empathetic would be like, well, what's the big deal. It's not God's culture. This is, you know, Utah is God's culture.
Larissa Kindred [01:02:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:02:39] Utah Mormonism is God's culture. But just imagine not having your pioneer ancestry. Imagine for Utah Mormons, think about Pioneer Day and the way you told stories about your ancestors and had pride and family pride and culture.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:02:54] Food and stories and hand me downs. Imagine having all that wiped away.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:02] And you just. It's just like you and your parents and like, drop the language. Switch the language, drop the stories, drop everything. Change your food, change your clothing, change your. Your family lore, and then just try to assimilate into this completely foreign culture to you.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:21] That's a huge loss that we. I mean, privilege is just swimming in.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:26] And not even realizing how good you have it.
Race, Identity, and Mormon Culture
Larissa Kindred [01:03:30] Right. Right.
John Dehlin [01:03:31] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:32] And I think one thing that. That. That I think that maybe people in the church don't always realize is that Mormon culture is. Is white culture. I mean, it. It's European, you know, like, it comes from European roots. It. You know, it's connected to Protestantism. The food is white. You know, like, the stories are white, like the. So. So the church has its own cultural and racial identity, but because it's part of the mainstream, it's almost not identified, if that makes sense. And so it just becomes like, no, this is universal. This is just. This is. Yeah, like you said, this is God's culture, but it's not. It's actually white culture. And so. And so. But you don't. You don't identify it because it's part of the normal. And. And so right now, we'll talk more about this. So I went back to school a couple years ago, so I'm in women's and gender studies program. And there's a professor that was telling us that what she does when she speaks is she'll talk to a group of people and she'll say, think of five things about yourself. So in this room right here, if I said, john, tell me five things about yourself, you might be like, oh, I'm a podcaster. And. And, you know, I'm a dad. And, you know, I'm. I'm a. Or these different things. And then you might say some things, and you might say some things. And if I. And if I was asked, I would say. I would first say I'm Asian. So I would say I'm Asian American. That. That's a very important part of my identity. And you also have a racial identity. But because it's part of the mainstream,
John Dehlin [01:05:05] I would never say I'm white.
Larissa Kindred [01:05:06] You would never start and be like, yeah, well, I'm white. People would be like, oh, good for you.
John Dehlin [01:05:09] You know, and that's not because I'm more enlightened. It's because I swoop women. So much privilege.
Larissa Kindred [01:05:13] Because it's, it's. Yeah. And, and so, so in, like, in my classes, we learned that it's called an invisible identity. It's part of your identity, but it's invisible because it's been treated as the main, it's mainstream, and it gets treated as the universal.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:27] That's so good.
Larissa Kindred [01:05:28] And I think that this is something that became a big deal to me once we start raising kids of other races too, is starting to understand not only like, do I, you know, what's my racial identity? How do my children find their racial identity? And, you know, it's, it's so hard because I feel like what I've encountered in the church is so many people that try to disregard your racial identity. And, you know, I, I'm a big fan of the, the Sisters in Zion. I think that they're like, they're, I think they're doing really good work and I've loved them. I followed them for a long time. And people are always telling them, like, quit making it about race, race. And I'm like, no, yours is about race too. It just, it's just your race. You know, like the, the church is about, like, the church has an identity. You're just not identifying it for what it is. And yeah, like you said, like, you can love your pioneer ancestry, but can you be unapologetically black in the church? You know, maybe sometimes, but a lot of times people will accuse you and say, like, quit making it about race or you need to move on and let these things go. And so anyways, yeah, it's an interesting thing, I think, in the church to look at and try to understand how racial identity plays a part in it.
Jeff Kindred [01:06:44] It reminds me of David Bednar when he said there are no saints. I mean, it's the same thing, right? You come in and then you just become a Latter Day Saint, and by default you're white. I mean, this is, I mean, this. If you look back, that's what we're telling him, right? And you'll become more white, the, the better you are.
Larissa Kindred [01:07:05] So. And I know that Nelson recently gave some type of a talk and, and was kind of addressing this and he was saying, you know, like, our most important identity is that we're children of God. And I, I do understand what he's saying on some level that, like, we're human beings and that that is the most important part of our identity. But. But I've heard so many members use that as a way to. To discount other people's racial identity. Like, why are you making this about race? We're all just children of God. And so I. I feel like that rhetoric, while it's based in something that is true, like, we're all human beings. Like, that's who we are. But you have to understand what that person's racial experience was if you want to understand their human experience.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:48] And living, I think, in a cultural.
Larissa Kindred [01:07:50] A culture of.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:51] Of white supremacy, too. It's sort of like that idea of, like, you know, white people saying, well, I don't see color in a system that absolutely plays to white people and absolutely sees color and where it's run and people are, you know, really punished and rights denied and.
Larissa Kindred [01:08:13] Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, this is kind of like the water that we're all swimming in. You know, like, there's. There's homophobia, there's racism, there's patriarchy, there's sexism. You know, so these are all things that we have to kind of square with, that we have internalized some of these. Every single one of us has internalized these things because it's just the water that we're swimming in. So I always feel like the biggest red flag is when someone is like, oh, no, I'm not. That's not me. Or I would not do that. And I think even for us, like me as a biracial woman and a parent to black children, I think I constantly have to be saying, have I internalized messages like, am I. Am I put, you know, like, what. What have I internalized? That is also not healthy. I feel like that's the only way that we can actually know that we're doing the work.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:03] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:09:03] Is if we're looking at ourselves and saying, like, have I internalized this? Or, like, where's this idea coming from? And am I feeling this way for a reason? Or is it, you know, so I. I just think, like. Like looking inwardly and checking yourself. And. And if you ever find yourself saying, like, nope, I. I'm not racist, then I feel like you have to be like. Like, I don't know.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:25] That's that.
Larissa Kindred [01:09:26] I feel like that that's the red flag for me is when you just think like, nope, I haven't internalized all of these, like, things that have happened, like, in our country. I haven't internalized any of it or
John Dehlin [01:09:33] I don't see color.
Larissa Kindred [01:09:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:09:35] I judge people by the content of their character.
Larissa Kindred [01:09:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:38] Do you find that. That education on a basic level is a key component to making that reflection process more effective?
Larissa Kindred [01:09:48] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. And honestly, like, I'm really, really big on, like, people telling their stories, because I think that once you start hearing like, this is actually what it was like, then it just changes things. And, you know, I listened to the LDS discussions podcast the other day. So you and Mike are talking about, you know, racism. And it's all very good, and it's, you know, like, it's very informative. But then you get a caller in who says, this is how this affected me in my life. Like, this is how this plays out in today, in day to day life. And then I'm crying while I'm listening to it, because now I understand, like, you're telling the issues, you're giving the education, but when. When she comes on and tells her story, that's when you're like, this is someone's life. This is someone's life that we're dealing with on a daily. That they're dealing with this on a daily basis. It has affected and harmed them. So I think that education and then people telling their stories and their experiences.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:47] Exactly.
Larissa Kindred [01:10:49] I think that's the thing.
Jeff Kindred [01:10:50] Well, part of that's getting out of our bubbles too, right? I mean, traveling or interacting with people that aren't like us. I mean, I just think it's so, so, so important to see things from someone else's perspective and try and empathize with. With other people in their. In their situation. Not just looking at them and being like, oh, that's too bad that you're in this situation. You know? Why. Why are they in this situation? How does that feel?
Larissa Kindred [01:11:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:11:15] Yeah. And we haven't even gotten to your story yet.
Larissa Kindred [01:11:17] No, this is my grandparents.
John Dehlin [01:11:19] So your grandparents moved to Linden and assimilate.
Larissa Kindred [01:11:23] Yes, they assimilate hard.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:24] Hard.
Larissa Kindred [01:11:24] So they. So I didn't. I didn't. This is something I also found out recently. So they were practicing Buddhist.
John Dehlin [01:11:33] Whoa.
Larissa Kindred [01:11:33] In Linden, like, underground. So they were kind of doing it, like, quietly. And. And my. I guess my. My sister had told me this and she had talked to. I think she had talked to my aunt, but she was saying that they had even, like, connected with a Buddhist priest from the temple in Salt Lake who would come and, like, do blessings on their house or, you know, like, do different, like, festivals. But I never knew about it, and I think they Kept it really, really quiet.
John Dehlin [01:12:00] Do you know what their professions were?
Larissa Kindred [01:12:03] You know, so my grandpa was like all. He was a military, so he was like a career military person. But he did. He did like mechanic type work for them. So I think he worked on like, military vehicles. And then my, my grandma. So my grandma, she's pretty cool.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:17] So.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:17] So in. In the later forties, her and her sisters all went to New York to go to culinary school. So she went to like, school to learn how to be. I think she did baking. And so I have this like, absolutely iconic picture of them. And I think they're like on the top of like the Chrysler Building or something. And they're just these like three, like, gorgeous, classy, like Japanese women and they're wearing like long coats and it's, it's like. And behind them is like New York and like the 1940s. And so. So it's just like a beautiful picture. So. So my grandma did that. She actually had a hard time getting hired, I think, because she was Japanese after that. And so she. So she just kind of baked like for friends and family. And then she did the stay at home mom thing. So.
John Dehlin [01:13:03] Wow.
Larissa Kindred [01:13:03] So that was them.
John Dehlin [01:13:04] Well, it's amazing.
Larissa Kindred [01:13:06] Yeah. So they have three kids. And then when my dad, my dad's the youngest and when he was. Was probably a little bit older than 8, but it was close to like, LDS baptism age. They decided to have all their kids baptized. And it was purely to assimilate. So it was like one day they were like, all three of you are getting baptized. So they all get baptized. And I don't. But, you know, like, it wasn't. It wasn't like they became culturally lds. It was just so that they could kind of blend in. I think my dad probably went to some social activities, but my dad went to snow college when he graduated. And then he kind of got. I think he got a group of friends that were LDs and they were all going on missions. And so my dad actually served a mission.
John Dehlin [01:13:55] What?
Larissa Kindred [01:13:55] Yeah, I know. So he. So he serves a mission in Sacramento, and then he came home and was like, you know, like, I'm home from a mission. And he was just doing the thing. And so he came home and got married to my mom.
John Dehlin [01:14:11] Do you get a sense that by the time your dad was serving a mission he was converted to the church?
Larissa Kindred [01:14:15] I would assume he was. So he. After him and my mom got married, he was. He was in and out of activity, but mostly inactive for. For my life. And so. But I. I think that he was my mom. My mom came from a pretty hardcore, you know, devout LDS family. And so I think that, I think that since he was just home from his mission, I think that that's probably something that appealed to her is that he seemed like he was really devout and into the gospel. And so I think that he probably was fairly converted on his mission, but obviously it didn't, it didn't stick.
John Dehlin [01:14:53] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:14:54] So. And my dad has an interesting story about his patriarchal blessing. So he got his patriarchal blessing before he went on his mission. And he went and they did not tell him that what tribe he came from. So, you know, this is, you know, this is, they, this is what they used to say. I wonder, do they kind of downplay this now? They used to say that, like, this is one of the most important reasons that you get a patriarchal blessing is because you need to know what.
John Dehlin [01:15:21] Get your lineage.
Larissa Kindred [01:15:21] To get your lineage.
John Dehlin [01:15:22] Main points is to get your lineage.
Larissa Kindred [01:15:24] Yes. So my dad didn't get a lineage. And so I think he was like telling somebody and they were like, oh, no, you have to go back because they have to, they have to tell you your lineage. So he goes back to the patriarch. And, and so he does. He gets kind of like a, like an addendum to his patriarchal blessing. And his, the addendum said that he's not from the house of Israel, but he's now adopted into the house of Abraham. So it's super weird because I know other Japanese people that they were like, you're from the tribe of Ephraim.
John Dehlin [01:15:57] So. And non Mormons who are listeners are like, what is this? So like when you get your patriarchal blessing at 16, around 16, you're the, this 80 year old or 70 year old dude puts his hands in your head and tells you which of the tribes of Israel you're a descendant of. And most white Mormons are told they're from Ephraim. And then sometimes what certain Mormons of color are told they're monastic. This is all weird. I mean, it's. This whole idea of lineage is a super racist thing. Right?
Larissa Kindred [01:16:33] Well, I've had my, you know, I've had like my ancestry DNA done and it, and it confirmed that I am not, I'm not Hebrew at all.
John Dehlin [01:16:41] Yeah, Mormons are all told they're part, they're Israelites.
Larissa Kindred [01:16:45] My own personal DNA studies are kind of throwing that into question.
John Dehlin [01:16:50] But somehow you tell Mormons or Idahoans are all from the tribe of Israel. Yeah, From Ephraim and Manasseh. But But. Or. Or if you're Jewish, you would have been told the tribe of Judah, I think.
Larissa Kindred [01:17:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:17:02] Not a lot of Jews are converting.
Jeff Kindred [01:17:03] Depends if they knew you were Jewish.
John Dehlin [01:17:06] And if you're Japanese, you don't get a little.
Larissa Kindred [01:17:09] Or not at all. But I. But I think some. I. The thing that makes me laugh is the lack of.
John Dehlin [01:17:13] Or your generic Abrahamic.
Larissa Kindred [01:17:15] Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't even, like, House of Israel. It was just. Just kind of like, you can be in Abraham's family. It's fine. So, yeah, I just. I feel like it's so funny because, I mean, I had heard this story a long time ago, and I was like, that's so strange, like, trying to square with, like, what's going on. But now I just feel like it's really funny. And I'm like, oh, I bet his patriarch was just like, oh, he's Asian, so he can't be House of Israel. And we don't really know. You didn't come from that. And so we just have to say this.
John Dehlin [01:17:44] But it's weird because God's supposed to be telling the patriarch. So God should know. And he's supposed to be telling the patriarch what the lineage is.
Larissa Kindred [01:17:49] Oh, yeah. But I. I'm telling you, I know other. I know other Asian people that are like, oh, I'm from Ephraim. Like, that have been told that they were just from a normal, like, standard tribe. And so.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:00] So random, right?
Larissa Kindred [01:18:01] It's very random. Yeah. It's kind of. It's kind of just a weird, funny thing.
Jeff Kindred [01:18:04] It's patriarch roulette. What do we say?
John Dehlin [01:18:09] Yeah, that's fascinating.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:12] Okay. So your dad comes back from his mission in Sacramento.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:15] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:16] Gets married to my mom and.
John Dehlin [01:18:17] Wait, where do they meet?
Larissa Kindred [01:18:19] So he. You know what? I don't. I think it was maybe a singles ward, and he was, like, teaching the Sunday school class. And she. And she met him and my mom was super young. She was 8. My mom was at BYU, 18 years old. And they got married really quick, and then she started having babies.
John Dehlin [01:18:36] And, like, this would have been in the 70s, I'm guessing.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:41] I'm kind of wondering, you know, like, today the Mormon Church still warns against interracial marriage.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:47] So your white mom marries the Cauca. I don't know what the word is. Caucasian mom.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:52] Marries a Japanese dad.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:54] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:18:54] I just wonder what type of racial community, you know, racial. You know, comments, judgment.
Larissa Kindred [01:19:03] Absolutely. So I don't. So I've asked my mom this. Us. And she doesn't feel like she got, like, Got that. There was a lot of that she heard, except for my. Except from her grandma, who's my great grandma, who said. She said if you're, if your grandpa was alive, he'd be rolling, you know, like. Or like he's. He's be. He's rolling in his grave right now because you're marrying a Jap. So, like, she uses this. Like, this is like a, you know, racial slur and she's your mom's mom. It's my mom. Mom's grandma.
John Dehlin [01:19:33] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:19:34] So she said, like, you're, you know, like, I'm so glad your grandfather isn't alive to know that you're marrying a jab.
John Dehlin [01:19:40] She would have been Mormon.
Larissa Kindred [01:19:41] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:19:42] They're all Mormon. Grandma says yes. I can't believe you're marrying a jap. Your grandpa would be rolling in his grave.
Larissa Kindred [01:19:47] Yeah. And I don't know, I feel like, you know, when I was growing up, I don't feel like my mom kind of like had this awareness of what would happen, like what it would be like raising multiracial kids or what the consequences of that would be. I don't think she was really tuned into, you know, this different dynamic that she was taking on. And so I don't know how aware she might have been, but she didn't. She did.
John Dehlin [01:20:15] She.
Larissa Kindred [01:20:16] I don't think she experienced any really, really open racism towards her and my dad.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:22] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:20:23] And your mom grew up where?
Larissa Kindred [01:20:25] My mom grew up in Salt Lake, and then when she was in high school, moved to American Fork.
John Dehlin [01:20:30] What high school was your mom in?
Larissa Kindred [01:20:31] You know, she went. She went to American Fork High School.
John Dehlin [01:20:33] Okay. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:20:34] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:20:35] And then I think she was.
John Dehlin [01:20:36] So you're a two generation caveman? Basically.
Larissa Kindred [01:20:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:20:38] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:20:40] I'm so proud. It's a rich family.
John Dehlin [01:20:45] Another caveman that we've interviewed on morning stories from Imagine Dragons.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:48] That's right.
John Dehlin [01:20:49] All right. Okay. So your mom and dad, your. Your white Mormon mom and your assimilated Japanese Mormon dad get married in the 70s?
Larissa Kindred [01:20:58] Yes, they do. Yeah. Early 70s. So they start having kids. I'm the. So there's. There's eventually going to be eight kids, and I'm the fourth, so I'm right in the middle. And my, my mom had her fourth child when she was 24 years old. So she was. So we're all fairly close in age.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:15] Wow.
Larissa Kindred [01:21:16] My older brother and I are just 18 months apart. So. Yeah, they just, the, the babies came quick, so they just kind of like got got into their thing.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:23] So.
John Dehlin [01:21:24] So you're kind of Raised in American Fork, Utah, which. Okay, that's. You describe American Fork. For those who don't know Utah from.
Larissa Kindred [01:21:31] American Fork is a small town, and it was smaller when I was living there than it is now. I feel like there's been quite a
John Dehlin [01:21:38] bit of growth, but it's between Provo and Salt Lake. South of Salt Lake, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:44] Kind of near Pleasant Grove and Geneva Steel, right?
Larissa Kindred [01:21:47] Yep. Yeah. Our city days were called the steel days because of the steel plant that was right there. So, yeah, I feel like it was just kind of like a typical small town, but ex. But predominantly white. And so when I was in high school, there was, you know, a brother, sister that were Vietnamese, and then there were me and my siblings, and I believe there was one black family that had, like, two kids that were. That went to my high school. But, I mean, this is an extremely, extremely white community. It's just very homogenous.
John Dehlin [01:22:23] Did you pass at being multiracial yourself? Did you pass as white?
Larissa Kindred [01:22:27] So, yeah, this is. That's a really good question. So, yeah, I. I always refer to myself as ethnically ambiguous because. Because I. I can. I can. I can be white passing. And I. And there's privilege that goes with that when you're multiracial, is that you can blend in if you want to. But I. I also feel like there were certain experiences where I definitely also felt othered or put in a different category. And, you know, there was things. Even in, you know, like, elementary school, I remember there were some kids that, like, dressed up for Halloween as, like, Japanese tourists, you know, or there were. There were, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, like. And just, like, kind of imitating, like, accents. And. And there was. There was always kids that, you know, kids that were, like, pulling their eyes to do the slanted eyes. And I don't know what it was about the 80s, but do you remember everybody was saying, like, jokes about Polish people. They'd be like, there's a Chinese man and a.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:28] A.
Larissa Kindred [01:23:28] And a polo and a. I don't know.
John Dehlin [01:23:30] I don't know.
Larissa Kindred [01:23:30] I don't know what was going on. But so I feel like there was, like, these kind of racial jokes. And I honestly, like, don't know how the Polish got into it, but there was always, like, a Chinese person. And so I just felt like there was a lot of imitating of, you know, Asian accents, which, like, my grandparents spoke with accented voices. And so I think there was plenty of things that kind of made me feel like I'm not really in this group or I Don't really feel like I'm a part of this. And I do look a little bit different. And I think was even, you know, when I was younger, I think I even probably looked a little more Asian than I do now. And so I think that there was a lot of people saying, like, what are you? You know, and so. Which is which I know that usually people are just curious about, like, what's your. What's your ethnic identity? But it. It also sometimes doesn't feel very nice when people are saying, like, what are you? What's going on with you? You know, and so I think that. I think that there's. There's almost kind of like micro. Little micro. Yeah, microaggressions that you kind of experience. And you're just kind of like, oh, that doesn't. It doesn't feel good. And yeah, so, yeah, it's. So I feel like it was. I feel like it's obviously it's not the same as if you had grown up in a predominantly white community and you were black or, you know, like, if you were Hispanic and you were a Spanish speaker or, you know, like, I think that there are a lot of. There are a lot of things that can make your racial experience easier or harder. But. But I. At the same time, I feel like I also need to acknowledge that there were some difficult things even. Even as a white passion passing, multiracial person that kind of had to be navigated. And I think I was aware very young that there was a strong preference for white beauty standards. And I think this is still fairly prevalent in Utah because this is so. I mean, like, it's just like, I use the word homogenous a lot, but it's a fairly homogenous place. And so, I mean, I remember being really sad because I didn't have blonde hair and my sister got a perm. This was the 80s, so, like, the permed hair was like all the rage. So my sister got a perm. So she had like really great frizzy 80s hair. And I wanted to have that hair too. And so my mom took me to get a perm, and I probably have the most. Most Asian hair out of all of my sisters.
John Dehlin [01:25:47] Just straight.
Larissa Kindred [01:25:47] Yeah, it's just like straight as can be. So I, I went to get a perm. So I, you know, I get the perm and you have to do. You can't wash it or whatever. And then I think within a day or two, it was just completely straight again. Like, it just was just like this again. And I just was so sad because I was like, my hair won't. My hair can't even be 80s. It can't even be like 80s permed. It was just, it was really sad. So, yeah, so I, I think that that was something I was very self conscious of is being aware that I wasn't the preferred beauty standard. And when I was growing up, you know, we talk about representation right now, like how important it is to see yourself represented in, you know, like, our cultural narratives and the stories and, you know, like the movies that are put out. And I, I never saw that until the movie Mulan came out. That's probably the first real, like Asian main character movie that I ever saw was Mulan. It came out when I was in high school.
John Dehlin [01:26:39] Asian woman.
Margi Dehlin [01:26:41] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:26:41] And so I just, you know, like, I feel like I grew up seeing myself as a sidekick or like you're the quirky friend of the main character and the main character is the one that gets the guy, but you're just kind of like the funny side, side person. And so, you know, I, I feel like this. It's just, it's just a tricky thing to try to navigate being in that type of setting when you are just. If you're very different, it's very hard. And I think when you're a little different, it's also hard.
John Dehlin [01:27:10] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:12] And you're certainly not going to be viewed by your ward and stake as like pioneer elite, because everyone can see that your dad's.
Larissa Kindred [01:27:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:20] Japanese. So it's like. Well, they're not pioneer stock.
Larissa Kindred [01:27:24] No. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:25] Yeah. Right.
Larissa Kindred [01:27:26] Yeah, I think so. And I don't, I don't think that I really felt aware of that. There may have been some of that in my ward. I became more aware of art. Low social standing in the church when my parents got divorced. So my parents get divorced when I'm 10 years old.
John Dehlin [01:27:42] Oh, wow.
Larissa Kindred [01:27:43] Yeah. So they split up when I'm 10. And I feel like that was a real significant thing that made me really feel like we were sort of second class in the church. And it may have been there, there may, there may have been other, like, racial pieces to that that I was unaware of. I'm not sure. My dad was an active, so, you know, he's the only person of color in our ward and he's not active. I don't know if people perceived him in a certain way because of that, but my parents get divorced when I'm 10 years old and it was absolutely devastating for me. So it was just, it was just so, so, so it Just shook up my whole world. It was just so hard. But after that, I really feel like our family became kind of like a charity project. And we were constantly told like, like, this is really sad because you don't have the priesthood in your home. You know, it just was always like, like, well, make sure that, you know, make sure that this family is doing okay because they don't have the priesthood in their home. And so I think that my mom being a single mom in the church, really, it was really like a, it was really a status thing that, that affected us and I, and that, you know, then I'm a teenager, so I think I became aware of it too.
Larissa's Childhood and Growing Up Biracial
John Dehlin [01:28:54] Did your dad leave or did he stick around?
Larissa Kindred [01:28:56] He left. So I, Yeah, so my parents got divorced. I. So, so I actually don't have like a well developed relationship with my dad at all. So when he was at home before my parents got divorced, I think I was kind of like always walking on eggshells around him. And I think my parents got together. This is like my assessment of them. I think they got together and they had different ideas about what their life was going to be. And my mom was just like, no, we're going to do the Mormon thing and we're going to have eight kids and, you know, live in American Fork and just do that. And I think that very quickly my dad kind of phased out of whatever he was feeling from his mission and just didn't want the same thing. And so I think that it, I think that he was not feeling what our family was. And so what was his profession? So he, he was, he worked as an engineer for Abbott.
John Dehlin [01:29:53] Abbott Labs.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:54] Huh?
Larissa Kindred [01:29:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:29:54] So pharma.
Larissa Kindred [01:29:56] Yeah, yeah, they do. Yeah, they do like medical things.
John Dehlin [01:29:58] So. Chemical. Chemical engineer.
Larissa Kindred [01:29:59] So he actually, I don't think he has a bachelor's degree, so I think he was almost like an engineer tech. Like he had done like a mechanical engineer, I think.
John Dehlin [01:30:08] So it doesn't.
Larissa Kindred [01:30:09] Yeah, I don't even know for sure this is a good indication of like how well I know my dad.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:13] So.
Larissa Kindred [01:30:14] Yeah, so he was gone a lot when he was at home. I think we kind of made ourselves scarce because it was tense when he was at home. And so, yeah, so my parents. So even though it was not a great situation, it was still devastating to me when my parents split up when I was 10. Just because that's. That's all that, you know, and you just, that's your normal. And so it really kind of like shook the foundation of, you know, what I thought my family Was. So. Yeah. So my dad left. We probably. I mean, I've seen him maybe, like, I had interacted with him a few times after that, like, before I graduated from high school. Like, one time he took me and my sister on a fishing trip. And then one time, like, me and my brother stayed at his apartment, but it was. I mean, it was. It was like, years in between.
John Dehlin [01:31:01] Did he move away?
Larissa Kindred [01:31:02] He moved. No, he moved to Salt Lake. So he was close by.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:06] He just. Just wasn't.
Larissa Kindred [01:31:08] Wasn't feeling it.
John Dehlin [01:31:09] He just kind of disappeared.
Jeff Kindred [01:31:10] Kind of deserted him.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:11] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:31:11] So he.
Jeff Kindred [01:31:12] And I think financially deserted him, too, Right.
Larissa Kindred [01:31:14] Yeah. So he. I don't think he. He paid some child support, but I. I do not. I do not think that it was what he should have been paying. And my mom's pretty mellow, and I think she didn't want to cause any drama, and so she just.
John Dehlin [01:31:30] Did she get a job?
Larissa Kindred [01:31:31] Yeah, my mom went back to school and she became a nurse. And I don't know exactly how much, but I think that our ward helped pay for that. So that. That's a. That's a nice thing I'll give to the church.
John Dehlin [01:31:42] That's huge.
Larissa Kindred [01:31:43] Yeah, it is nice. I know that they paid our mortgage frequently during that time, and so. So, yeah. So then we were like a single parent family and eight kids.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:54] Like, when we're all struggling, processing a loss of faith, it's hard to want to give the church any credit. It's easy to want to be angry about everything. And, of course, we're all taxed at 10% of our income for life. And so, like, it's hard to even say, wow, that's neat. That the church.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:12] My family out. So that's all true. And this isn't. I'm not sermonizing anyone.
Larissa Kindred [01:32:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:17] But I. I don't want to just totally jump over the fact that, like, your mom's without a. A provider in the home, and the church helps put her. Potentially helps put her through school and helps pay her mortgage while she gets an education to support her children. I guess I just want to be fair and say that's a big deal.
Larissa Kindred [01:32:36] I think so. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:37] I agree not to preach at you. I'm not trying to Mormon splain you, but.
Larissa Kindred [01:32:41] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:32:42] Whenever Larissa tells us stories about our childhood, our house, I always have to have the Kleenexes close by because they're always so sad.
Larissa Kindred [01:32:50] Well, I think they're kind of. Of extra sad for me, too, because I. I just. I. I'm incredibly sensitive. I I grew up feeling very disconnected from, you know, like my caregivers. Like, I. So I think that I even experience these things more acutely than even some of my siblings did because I just was very, very sensitive. So. And I think, I actually think my family's like, financial setting in the church, I think motivated me as an adult to think like, I'm gonna be a giver, I'm never gonna be a taker. Because once we had to be takers. And so we were also getting, I know that we were getting storehouse food,
John Dehlin [01:33:35] like, like welfare, like food from the bishop's storehouse.
Larissa Kindred [01:33:37] Yeah. And it's. It's kind of like a weird. I have a lot of weird feelings around this because in one way I do feel grateful because I'm like, thank you. And they, they were able to help. And we had food. It was also very embarrassing. And I remember like my friends coming over and being like, I hope nobody opens the cabinet and sees that we have like food with that deseret, you know, the little deseret beehive symbol on it. And so it just was a really hard thing. And I have this really vivid memory of. So we were, I think more than once we were the subject of like a sub for Santa. And I remember like Christmas morning. And I know I was 14 years old and I opened a gift and it, it was a, like a green striped shirt, which was actually really cute. And, and it was like a cute notebook with some like fun pens, you know, that were. Anyways, so I was just like, oh, this is really fun. And there was a little tag tucked in it that said, that said 14 year old girl. And so whoever had, whoever had bought that had, you know, like somebody had said like, will you get a gift for a 14 year old girl? So I just, I feel like when I think of this, there's just a lot of weird emotions because I think how nice it is that there was a. Somebody that, that went out and shopped for me. But there was also a lot of, you know, shame or embarrassment, like, why can't we just get it together? Why can't we be that family that can take care of themselves and so somebody else has to do this. So it's a really kind of like, confusing, complicated thing. But I do think when I became an adult, I was really like, no, I'm never gonna take from the church. I'm always gonna give. I'm gonna be the one that is like, I'm gonna be the one that like buys the thing. I'm not Gonna be a taker anymore. And in a way, that is good because you want to give back. But also I feel kind of sad for myself that I thought that I. That I couldn't take, you know.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:37] Yeah. Anyway.
John Dehlin [01:35:39] And you had a triple strike because you're. You're biracial.
Larissa Kindred [01:35:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:35:43] Divorced, family and poor.
Larissa Kindred [01:35:46] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:35:47] Not fun.
Larissa Kindred [01:35:48] Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was tough. And you'll kind of see this later. I think that my family dynamic and these things that I experienced, I think it. I think that it wasn't until I was. Maybe in college, but I started to really chase. I want to be accepted in the church. I want to be that person. I want to be. I want to be that family that people think is so great in the ward. And I think that this heavily shapes my. My adult relationship with the church because I did experience this thing of feeling second class in the church.
John Dehlin [01:36:23] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:24] I have a question for you about.
Larissa Kindred [01:36:27] It feels like there's like a before
Margi Dehlin [01:36:31] divorce, you on a level, and then an after divorce. And I'm curious particularly about, like, who you feel like you became in that half part, like, during high school,
Larissa Kindred [01:36:48] how
Margi Dehlin [01:36:49] you coped, how you kind of mentioned how sensitive you were, how deeply you felt. You know, this really changed world for you. What do you remember about you kind of after this? How would you describe yourself?
Larissa Kindred [01:37:03] You know, I don't. I don't know if I. I don't know how it really. I mean, I feel like. Especially as a high schooler, I feel like I was very. A very, very damaged person. I just. I just struggled. And I. I think when I was. One of my biggest, I think, issues when I was growing up is that, you know, my mom was really stressed out, and, you know, she's single parenting, and she's got eight kids. And I was extremely emotional going, you know, like, going through a lot of things really heavily processing, like, the. The. The events that were happening around me. And so I. I definitely felt highly marginalized by my. By my mom and by. By. By my family, because, I mean, I heard so many times, like, quit being so sensitive. Like, quit being dramatic or, like, you're making too big of a deal of it. And so I think that I. That was something that really. I internalized that. Like, you know, like, you. You don't matter. Like, you need to. You need to, like, put a lid on it because you're just causing trouble.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:07] Like, your emotions take up too much space. They're too big.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:10] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:11] It makes everyone feel.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:13] And I. And I feel like I, as an Adult. I've had to kind of work through some resentment I have even towards my mom, because I feel like she really shut me down during this, you know, post divorce when there was a lot of things going on. And then I have a high achieving older sister and my mom kind of did the thing where she kind of like, made my sister her best friend after the divorce. And so there was just a ton of focus on my sister. And she was, she just was kind of like the person that always did the good thing. She was. She was like the golden child of her family, of. Of our family. And so she. So it was. And then. So that combined with me feeling like, you know, no, I'm being dramatic or I'm taking up too much space or like my personality is too much or whatever. I think all of that made it really difficult for me to. Even so, I mean, I don't think I really worked through or processed any of what had happened when my parents got divorced. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think high school was a time for me where I was just like, struggling and trying to find my place. And I had a. I had a boyfriend all the way through high school. And I definitely think I was looking for someone to connect with, a male that would accept me. You know, I'm sure I had, like, abandonment issues and, and things. I didn't know that at the time, but I was definitely, like, looking and searching for, like, I need somebody to connect with. I need somebody who can, who can understand or hear me. And I think I identified fairly early that I would not find that. That within my family because I just. I felt very, very marginalized.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:48] Yes. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:39:52] So I, I don't know if this is a place to go, but sometimes when you don't have a father in the home or in your life and you do date as a young woman, maybe you. Yeah. You would look to your boyfriend as. As being an even more critical part of your life. And then there's whatever things the church is teaching you, and that can become.
Larissa Kindred [01:40:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:40:19] That can become a source of potential guilt and shame. Like.
Larissa Kindred [01:40:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:40:23] Is. It was. Well, where do you want to go next? I don't want to jump there.
Larissa Kindred [01:40:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:40:27] But that does, that does come to my mind.
Larissa Kindred [01:40:29] Yeah. So I. Yeah. So I definitely, like, latched on to a boyfriend that I. I mean, I. I had one boyfriend all the way through high school. That's. That's a long high school relationship. I don't think it was healthy at all, but clearly I. This is something that I was, you know, I, I thought, I thought I needed this. And so it was, it was a very, it was probably a very weird codependent type of a thing. But, but yeah, and I, so I feel like I was always very aware of my sexuality. So it's something that was present that I was feeling and that I was aware of.
John Dehlin [01:41:03] And so do you want to back up to talk, talk about that starting earlier or. Because we didn't even talk about like the Mormon culture in your family, what, what role the church played once your dad left and your family.
Larissa Kindred [01:41:14] Yeah, so. So before. So I, I think it was always kind of a little bit of a push and pull with my mom and my dad when they were together. And I don't, I don't remember tons of it. I know that, you know, like we would try to do things and it wouldn't stick. But when my dad left, my mom went really hard with the church and I think that, that, that she still is very, very devout and so, so yeah, my mom went pretty hardcore at the church and she had very, very, she had very, I think they were fairly traditional beliefs for that time, so. And she was kind of like in the Boyd K. Packer mindset because I remember, you know, like you hear things and I always think that I was like a little bit of a budding feminist. And so I'm very sensitive to social justice issues. And so I remember, like, I don't know if we learned of. It doesn't seem like we would learn about the era at school, but somehow I became aware of the era and I was like, why wouldn't the church back this? Because the church loves women. You know, like they, they promote women. And so why would they not do this? And so my mom gave me the total like Phyllis Schlafly like talking points that were like, you know, you know. And you know, you know who Phyllis Schlafly is.
John Dehlin [01:42:29] Oh yeah, we watched Margi and I watched that documentary. So good documentary, the dramatization.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:33] And she. And she almost like single handed.
John Dehlin [01:42:34] Mrs. American woman.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:35] Mrs. America.
John Dehlin [01:42:36] Mrs. America.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:37] It's so good.
John Dehlin [01:42:38] Yeah, that is it. We'll put it that in the show notes.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:39] It's so good.
John Dehlin [01:42:40] See Mrs. America.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:41] That's with Cate Blanchett, among others.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:44] The cast is incredible. Oh, it's so good. No, so I've had multiple, like multiple of my women's studies classes. We'll talk about Phyllis Schlafly because she literally almost single handedly like derailed the era. I mean she was just so.
John Dehlin [01:42:56] Well, with the help of the Mormon Church.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:58] Absolutely. Yeah. And the evangelicals and the Catholics. Yeah, yeah. So she. But her talking points about it, like, you know, it was like, oh, this is gonna make it so that you. We can't have gendered bathrooms anymore. And so women, you know, can. Will not have any privacy. And then, you know, our daughters will be drafted. So there was a lot of kind of like. Like, scare tactics that were used at
John Dehlin [01:43:19] the time just to make it explicit. We can't have an Equal Rights Amendment, which all it says is that women should be treated equally to men. We can't have that. Or gendered bathrooms will disappear and everyone
Larissa Kindred [01:43:31] will be assaulted, apparently, in a bathroom.
John Dehlin [01:43:33] No. Children will. Everyone will turn gay. There'll be abortions everywhere, and society will crumble.
Larissa Kindred [01:43:39] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:39] So.
Larissa Kindred [01:43:40] So. So my mom was like. My mom was of, like, she. Like, she. She read me, like, the Phyllis Schlafly lines. And so she was very much like, this is what, you know, I think this is how she was raised to believe. And so this is what I was taught at home. And I know that she. I think when I was starting to, like, understand, like, what feminism was and, you know, I was saying something about it, and my mom was like, she told me the thing that, like, the three things that are the biggest threat to the church are feminists, gays, and intellectuals. Right. Is that a Boyd K. Packer line?
John Dehlin [01:44:13] That is. Boy, classic.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:14] Yeah. Yeah, that.
Larissa Kindred [01:44:15] That. That came into my home.
John Dehlin [01:44:17] So, okay, so your mom goes Boyd K. Packer.
Larissa Kindred [01:44:20] Yeah, it was probably always in her, but, yeah, that's. She felt free to. To do that. So. But. But it was kind of interesting because I think there was some things that she could do to regulate us. Like, my mom was hardcore about rated R movies, and even, like, PG 13, it was like. It was like, you need. Like, even as a teenager, it was like, you need to ask. Ask before you even see a PG13 movie. And if I said I couldn't even. Like, everybody was saying, like, that sucks. Like, I feel like that kind of came a thing in the 90s, and we weren't supposed to say suck. And so, like, if there was a swear word, it would have been like, death at my house. And. But she, like, let me hang out with my boyfriend all the time, so I don't really know. So I think maybe there were certain things that she felt like she could control. And then there were other things that maybe she was like, I. I can't manage that. She was working. You know, I was kind of a Latchkey high school kid. And so. So maybe she just felt like, I can't deal with this, and so I just don't want to know. And so in some ways, I was not very well regulated. And in some ways, I feel like there were some strong standards at home.
John Dehlin [01:45:27] Yeah. Okay. That's super helpful. I'm glad we covered that.
Larissa Kindred [01:45:31] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:31] Yeah.
Larissa's Sexuality and College Years
John Dehlin [01:45:31] Now, let's circle back. You were starting to talk about being aware of your sexuality.
Larissa Kindred [01:45:35] Yeah, So I. I think I always was. Where. So when I was in high school, I. I don't think I was very active, but I didn't know that I was not very active. I just was kind of, like, going when I wanted to. And, you know, like, sometimes I'd go to my boyfriend's ward with him because he's lds, and so. So I was kind of floating around, and I wasn't super engaged with it, but I. I did go to seminary, and, you know, I. I did the young women's thing every now and again. I did not have a great experience in young women. I had a young woman's present for a little while that I was like, she doesn't like me. I could just. I was like, I can tell she doesn't like me. And I don't know if she thought I was a little rough around the edges because I wasn't always there. I'm not sure, but I know she didn't like me, and I could feel it. And I think there were some other girls that would always, like, hang out at her house, and maybe she was one of those young women's leaders that kind of tries to be the girl's best friend. And maybe I wasn't as responsive to her in that way. And so I could tell she wasn't feeling me. And it just didn't make me want to go to young women, so I kind of just would go here and there. I went to girls camp a few times. But, yeah, I feel like I was always fairly aware of my sexuality. And so I think that when I was in. I messed around with boys fairly frequently because I just. I think that that was, like, a very natural thing for me to be like, yes, this is how I want to express myself. And if I want to psychoanalyze myself, there might have been me trying to get some type of love or validation back. And so, yeah, there was fooling around with boys. And I had two weird bishops interviews. And the weirdest part about it is that I didn't know that it was weird until last year.
Jeff Kindred [01:47:18] No, like, a few Weeks ago,
Margi Dehlin [01:47:21] I
Larissa Kindred [01:47:21] was like, you know, you hear people that have these stories about bishops interviews. And I'm like, I always say, yeah, I never had a weird bishop's experience, or I never had a weird bishop's interview. And then I was telling Jeff this story the other day.
John Dehlin [01:47:36] Tell us the story.
Larissa Kindred [01:47:36] And he was kind of like, you don't think that's right? So my bishop, when I was a teenager, like, to this day, I, like, have good feelings about him. He was just, like, a super nice guy. Guy. Great, great guy.
John Dehlin [01:47:47] Systems. Not people.
Larissa Kindred [01:47:48] Exactly. Yeah. And so I think that I had, like, you know, been messing around with my boyfriend. So I go in to talk to him and tell him, and so. And he's asking me, like, very specific questions about, like, what happened?
John Dehlin [01:48:04] And, like, where were you?
Larissa Kindred [01:48:06] Yes. So it was like. It was like, you know, like, what were you doing? And then, like, did he touch your breast? And then it was like, did he touch under your bra or over your bra? I mean, like, it was very specific. And I'm just, like, sitting there just answering these questions like it's normal. I feel like this is. What's so strange is that you're just like, yep, this is. This is fine. This is normal.
Jeff Kindred [01:48:27] You just become numb to it. Right? I mean, really, this is like, you
Larissa Kindred [01:48:30] know, like, you're told your whole life that, like, this is. This man was called of God to help you to become worthy or whatever. And so I just answered the questions, and I think that it might have been, like, I didn't take the sacrament for a few weeks or something like that, and then I just moved on. So that's that. And then another time, I was with my boyfriend at his ward, and his bishop was like, I want to talk to you both. Well, you hear it. Because he knew that we had been dating for most of high school. So we met with his bishop, and he was, like, talking to us about it. And he's, like, talking all about, like, sex is great, but, like, you just gotta wait for the right time. But he's just like, really? I think he was really trying to, like, be cool with the teenagers or whatever, but then he was asking specific questions about, like, have you had oral sex? And so he's asking, like, very, like, explicit things. And at the time, I was like, gross. Like, I can't believe he's, like, asking that. Ew. But again, I didn't ID this as inappropriate because I had always been told, like, this is what they're doing, and they're called of God, and that's what they're supposed to do. And I always, like, hear people that ID these things as inappropriate when they're younger. And I'm always like, kudos to you, because I feel like I was just like, yeah, I need to confess, or I don't know. And so, anyways, so I had those two bishops interviews, and I never thought a thing about it until I was just honestly talking about it recently. And Jeff was like, that. That's not. Those aren't normal bishops like that.
Jeff Kindred [01:50:08] Well, they are normal, but they shouldn't be normal. That shouldn't be a normal thing.
Larissa Kindred [01:50:12] They're normal, but not.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:13] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:50:14] Yeah. Anyways.
John Dehlin [01:50:16] Okay, so. Yeah, thanks for sharing.
Larissa Kindred [01:50:18] Yeah. So, yeah, high school. So I. I was a dancer, so I grew up dancing. That was kind of my thing. I think that was part of. Maybe. I don't know if that plays into, like, me being aware of my sexuality, but I. I was extremely comfortable in my body. And, you know, like, I grew up wearing leotards, and so I did not have any. I didn't. And modesty was not one of the things that my mom enforced with me. There were other things, but it was not. So I just. I feel like I had a lot of comfort with my body, and I understood that, like, I sometimes use my body as an instrument because it's. Because I'm a dancer, and I use it, you know, like, to be expressive. And so I think that I had general comfort with my body, and I felt comfortable wearing, you know, tank tops and short shorts. And I just. It was all just like, no, this is fine. I. I wear a leotard, like, most of my day. And, you know, like, we'd have concerts, and you'd have a quick costume change, and we'd just, like, run off to the side and strip down and. And then, like, put your new costume on. And so I just. I mean, even to this day, I feel like I just have a lot of, like, openness about, like, these are just bodies, you know, like, there's a time they're sexual, and there's a time that they're not. So that was me as a teenager, but I. And I think that people probably made assumptions about me because of it, but I wasn't aware of it at that time. Once I get into college, I will become aware that other people are perceiving me in a certain way because of this. But in high school, I was like, no, this is fine. I, like, feel great. And I would wear, like, a dress to prom that had, you know, like, spaghetti straps. Because that was the style in the 90s. And it just. I was like, this is fine. So, okay, yeah, that was me in high school.
John Dehlin [01:51:59] Okay. Anything else about your high school years before we moved to college?
Larissa Kindred [01:52:04] No. I. I do want to say this because this is kind of a weird experience that I had. So that ties into kind of like my racial upbringing. So when I was. I bet I was maybe a pre teen, I. I started to become aware of, like, the racial, you know, that there had been the priesthood ban, you know, on black people and had questions about it. You know, it doesn't sit right with me. And so I had asked somebody who was in my life, I asked somebody about racial differences, because I was saying is, this is how, like you're telling me that this is how God has marked people is by. With racial differences? And they said, yeah, you know, like, it's not that way anymore, but that is how God has, like, managed people in the past. And I said, okay, well, what about Asians? Because Asians have slanted eyes. So, you know, like, we have, like, I mean, if you. If you're a northern Asian like me, then you have lighter skin, and there are Asians with darker skin. But, you know, like, we have very distinct. You know, like northern Asians have very distinct eyes. So I said, what about people with slanted eyes? And this person said that probably also was a curse from God at some point. And so they identified that if there was racial differences, it probably came from a cursing. But we don't have record of it. Like, maybe the record of it just got lost. We have the Book of Mormon. And so. And I wanted to say this because I feel like right now there's like such a. You know, like, there's always. People are trying to say, like, no, that. No, it, you know, it's just skin. What's the thing that, like, the apologetics around the skin color, it's not countenance.
John Dehlin [01:53:56] It wasn't really about skin color. The curse was around the brightness of your countenance.
Larissa Kindred [01:54:01] Right.
John Dehlin [01:54:01] So when they said dark and loathsome, they were spirit. They meant spiritually darkness, not dark and loathsome skin, which is made up.
Larissa Kindred [01:54:12] Yeah. And when I was growing up that obviously there was no talk about that. Like, it was very specifically like, it was. It was skin.
John Dehlin [01:54:19] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:54:20] 100. And I don't know if anybody else would have ever thought about why Asians look different. Sometimes I feel like Asians are almost like the forgotten minority because they did assimilate well and because most of them have lighter skin. And so it's kind of like, what about Asians? But I don't think because of what the rhetoric was around racial differences at that time, it was not a stretch for somebody to make that jump and say, oh, Asians also must have been cursed at one point, because why else would they have these physical attributes that are, you know, like, specific to their race? So, yeah, it was a thing. It was a thing. It was common. Yeah. I don't know that anybody else would have ever heard that or thought like, oh, yeah, Asians were cursed. But somebody made that jump. And I think that the rhetoric around the time made that jump possible.
John Dehlin [01:55:15] I remember stumbling on a document as a missionary that had these rings, and it was like blacks of the outer ring. And then it's like Pacific Islanders.
Larissa Kindred [01:55:25] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:55:26] It's like Native American and then it's like Asians and then it's, you know, Middle Easterners and then. And it was like. I don't know if it was Alvin Dyer, but like, somebody wrote some essay on like, the gradations of race and who was. Oh, my gosh. And of course, whites were the most valued in the pre. Existence. And then it was like grades of lesser valiance until you reach the blacks, basically.
Larissa Kindred [01:55:53] Right.
John Dehlin [01:55:53] Yeah, you guys were better than.
Larissa Kindred [01:55:55] Yeah, yeah, we were better than some.
Margi Dehlin [01:55:57] That's terrible.
John Dehlin [01:55:59] I'm sorry, but I did that. That was a thing.
Larissa Kindred [01:56:03] Yeah, I. I mean, there was no. I mean, it's kind of funny now because you hear so many apologetics about it, and I'm just like, that wasn't a thing. Like, it wasn't a thing till just recently that, you know, like, that we talk about, like, oh, it wasn't a. It wasn't a. It wasn't a curse. It was. It was like the curse was that. That they didn't have the priesthood or that they were separated from God. The skin was a marking. Right. Like, that was a way to mark people. But the curse was something else. Like, not. It was never discussed like that. It was never talked about like that.
John Dehlin [01:56:32] Anybody knows how to find that document. I'm referring to with. With the circles. I would love to do an episode on that.
Larissa Kindred [01:56:39] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:41] Seriously?
John Dehlin [01:56:41] Yeah. Okay. So you start to have a bit of a racial awakening.
Larissa Kindred [01:56:45] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:56:46] And a mini feminist awakening.
Larissa Kindred [01:56:48] Yes. Yeah. It was all. It was all brimming under the surface.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:51] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:56:51] When I. When I left high school, so. Graduated from seminary and I also got my young women medallion. So I did. I did enough to do those things. And then. Yeah. And then I graduated and I went to Weber State for school.
John Dehlin [01:57:06] Okay. And. And what were you studying?
Larissa Kindred [01:57:10] History.
John Dehlin [01:57:10] Oh, nice.
Larissa Kindred [01:57:11] Yeah. So I love history, and I actually really, really love ancient world history, so. So, yeah, I just. I love ancient civilizations, and I actually really love Bibles, like Bible history or Bible culture type things. And so, yeah, so I was doing history and I went to Weber State.
John Dehlin [01:57:31] So go is Wildcats. Is that what they are? What's their mascot?
Margi Dehlin [01:57:35] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:57:36] Is that right? It's been a little while trying.
John Dehlin [01:57:38] I always talk about Aggies because I went to Utah State or byu.
Larissa Kindred [01:57:43] Don't forget Weavers.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:44] Straight for the mascot.
John Dehlin [01:57:48] Damon Lilliard went to Weber State. Right?
Margi Dehlin [01:57:50] That's right. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:57:51] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:51] Jeff, is that another basketball reference?
Larissa Kindred [01:57:54] So we got basketball.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:57] That's right.
John Dehlin [01:57:59] One of the trailblazers. Anyway, sorry I derailed this.
Larissa Kindred [01:58:02] No, you're fine.
John Dehlin [01:58:03] Anything else, Larissa, about your story before you meet Jeff?
Larissa Kindred [01:58:08] Yeah, so I. So I. I. Before I met Jeff is when I kind of had. So I had a. I had a rocky first semester at Weber State, and I hadn't been super active in high school. And so when I was in my first semester at Weber State, I was also just a little bit wild. So I was just kind of, like, doing my thing and having a great time or whatever. And I never, like, drank or did drugs or anything, but I was just kind of, like, not super into my classes and dating a lot and just kind of doing my thing. And so it just kind of. And then I had one bad relationship that was pretty toxic. And so after that first semester, I moved back to American Fork, and I moved in with my grandparents. They have. They had a basement apartment, so I moved in with my grandparents now.
John Dehlin [01:59:02] Which grandparents?
Larissa Kindred [01:59:03] My mom's parents. So these are my white grandparents.
John Dehlin [01:59:07] I didn't ask you. Did your dad's parents stick around while they were in your life?
Larissa Kindred [01:59:11] Yeah. So I was really close to them. Oh, wow.
John Dehlin [01:59:13] So. So even though you weren't close to your dad, you were close to your dad?
Larissa Kindred [01:59:15] We were very. Yeah. And my sweet Japanese grandparents, they. For a little bit, they almost, like, disowned my dad because they felt that he, you know, like, family is so important. And Japanese culture is very patriarchal. It has a very patriarchal history. And so it was really like, you are not doing your responsibilities. And it was. They were devastated about it. So they were like, like, so loving to my mom. And so we. We were. I grew up very close to my Japanese grandparents.
John Dehlin [01:59:46] Nice.
Larissa Kindred [01:59:46] And. And actually, when I got married to Jeff, so my grandpa died when I was a senior. In high school. But when I got married to Jeff, it was like my grandma. My Japanese grandma's, like, it was like her proudest day. Because you know that you. You may not know this because you guys don't have Asian. Asian moms or grandmas, but Asian moms always want you to marry. Marry a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer. That's like. That's the goal for, like, an Asian female.
John Dehlin [02:00:12] That sounds like a stereotype.
Larissa Kindred [02:00:14] It is a stereotype. But.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:15] But it's.
Larissa Kindred [02:00:16] But there's no backing to it. And I can say it because I'm now an Asian mom. So I under. I understand this. But yeah, people. People will joke about, like, the Asian moms. Like, you can either be a lawyer, a doctor, an engineer, or a disappointment. Like, those are the. Those are the different categories. So when I got married to Jeff, like, my Japanese grandma was just like. Like, I just remember her, like, touching his arm, and she kept going, he's a doctor. Oh, he's a doctor. Do you remember that? Like, she was just like. You were like, I feel so silly. She's also. She was like 4 foot 11. And. And she'd always go, he's so tall.
John Dehlin [02:00:49] She, like.
Larissa Kindred [02:00:50] She's like a navard by Jeff. So, yeah, so I was close to my Japanese grandparents, but, yeah, I moved in with my. With my mom's parents. They had a basement apartment, so I moved in with them kind of as a way to just kind of regroup and get my. Kind of my bearings around me. And I went to UVU for just one semester, so. And I had kind of had a funky semester. And you'll. You'll find out more as we go along, but I'm. I feel like I'm kind of like a jack of all trades, and I'm interested in a lot of things, and I'm always pursuing different things. So I had this idea at the time that I really wanted to work on an ambulance and get my EMT certified certification. So I was like, no, I'm really good in, like, stressful situations, and so I'll do this. So I signed up to do that, and I could do it through uvu. So I took, like, two classes, and then I had my EMT class. And when I went to sign up for my EMT class, they said the person at the office was like, hey, they actually have to fill, like, a quota of women in the fire, like, the firefighter program. And so they were like, do you want to take fire one? Like, the first level of, like, firefighter certification? Because if you do, they'll cover the cost of like, your semester.
Margi Dehlin [02:01:59] Ooh.
Larissa Kindred [02:01:59] And so, like, there was a scholarship involved. Yeah, they were trying to, like, get more women interested. And so I was like, yeah, so. So I took like an English class and I think I had a dance class at the time. And then I also had my EMT and I had my Firefighter 1 certification class. So I did this at UVU.
Margi Dehlin [02:02:15] Amazing.
Larissa Kindred [02:02:15] It was pretty cool. Yeah, so I. I did this at uvu. But, yeah, so while I was there, I. I actually had this experience and I was at home and it was general conference weekend. And you know, my grandparents are like, really devout. And so I. I think I turned on conference and I was just. I was down in the basement apartment, so I was on my own and I turned on conference and I was kind of like cleaning up or doing something. And so I was kind of listening. And Richard G. Scott gave a talk. And I still remember it's called the Path to Peace and Joy. And it really, really affected me because he was talking about, you know, repentance and the atonement. And he said. He said, like, if there are those of you. And you know, he, like, I don't know, he would like, use his hand and you know, like, kind of like
Jeff Kindred [02:03:05] really stare into the.
Larissa Kindred [02:03:06] Yeah, stare into the screen. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:09] And also, like, you have fallen off the covenant path.
Larissa Kindred [02:03:14] It was exactly like that. But somehow it like spoke to me at the time. Cause it was exactly. He was like, if you are someone who has found yourself, you know, like, yeah, off the covenant path. Then he said, you do not have. Do not believe that you are gonna be a second class citizen in the church. And he said, like, you can come back. And I had felt like I was a second class citizen in the church. And so I was really moved by that. And I. And I. I kind of feel like during that time anyways, I was like, am I living under my potential? You know, like, am I gonna get myself in trouble or am I, you know, like, what am I doing with my life? And so I made decisions right then that I was like, no, I've gotta, like, get this thing together. And the only way I knew to get it together or to, you know, like, this is the life. This is a good life. This is a life that is valuable and meaningful. The only way I knew how to do that was to go hard in the church. And so that semester for me was a real change where I was like, no, I don't have to be a second class citizen in the church. I really can, like, move past my upbringing and who I was, and I can be somebody in the only place that matters, which is the church. And I think it. This really influences who I become in the church and my journey of getting kind of like really, really roped into the drink. I'm drinking the Kool Aid. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:04:53] Or joining the covenant path.
Larissa Kindred [02:04:56] Yes. Oh, I did it. Yes. Yeah. So. So it was. So, yeah, it was a little rocky though. So I. So I'm trying to think what's the best thing to. So, so I start getting into, like, I'm going to be really churchy now. So I'm like going to my student ward now and I'm, you know, I'm just starting to do the things. And I also really wanted to be someone that was knowledgeable. And so then I start like, reading my scriptures and I'm also reading church books. Books. And like, during that time I had bought like, some like, doctrinal commentary that like Joseph Fielding McConkey wrote at BYU. So I was just, I was really like, no, I can be that person. I wasn't that person, but I could become that person. So it was, it was the. This is kind of like the, the path that I was on. So. So I had one significant relationship in college before I met Jeff. That was really hard for me. So I, I met this guy actually in my EMT class and. And then he was also from. So we ended up both going back to Weber State after this. But his dad was a high up in the ces, so he worked like church office building and was a CES guy and just like they were like the family. And he's had many other like, important responsibilities and callings since then also. But so we were dating and I was just. So he's like a really, really good LDS guy. And so I, I really wanted to get married and, and I, I mean, we, we wanted to get married to each other. It was very mutual and we were like, really had. I thought we had a great relationship and it was all good. And as things like, progressed and moved along, you know, it was kind of like, should we pray about getting married? And he kind of like pulled this thing with me where he was like, like, I feel like the spirit is telling me like, that it's, it's not right, so. And this. So this is like, devastating for me. But as we kind of like start to like, hash this out and be like, well, what's going on? Like, I feel like things are going great and like, what's going on? So his dad was, like, just this really, like, rigid church guy, and he did not think that I was, like, the right material to join the family. And so he. He just didn't. And. And I don't know exactly. I don't know which of my. The elements of my identity were not. Okay. I don't know if there was. I don't think there was, like, a full racist issue, at least not consciously. Like, not conscious, but there might have been, like, she's not exactly one of us. Or like, she's not marriage material or.
Margi Dehlin [02:07:40] That's right.
Larissa Kindred [02:07:41] You know, like, so there was something. And I know. I know he was apt.
John Dehlin [02:07:44] You know.
Larissa Kindred [02:07:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:07:46] Come from a divorce.
Larissa Kindred [02:07:47] Well, I know he said to him.
John Dehlin [02:07:48] Biracial.
Larissa Kindred [02:07:49] He said to his son one time, he said, she comes from, like, a family of divorce, and so she's not going to know how to be in a functional relationship. And the. The ironic thing is, is that, you know, when I was talking to this guy I was dating, he was like, oh, my parents have, like, a really hard time because, like, his dad had always been in leadership. The mom's just struggling. She's got, like, a ton of kids. She's struggling. And then, you know, he said he had memories of being in, like, sacrament meeting when he was little. And, you know, his dad's just, like, staring up at, like, the. The pulpit. Like, I'm gonna listen. Like, I'm listening to the talks, but the mom's, like, wrangling, like, all the kids. And so. So it's interesting because, you know, like, he believed that they had a more legitimate family because of who they were in the church, even though there was clearly dysfunction in. In that family as well. But. So. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:46] And we all know that Mormon families, Utah white pioneer stock, Utah Mormon families can be toxic. Like, super toxic. Abusive. Just like all families have problems.
Larissa Kindred [02:08:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:59] So, like, to. To say that someone coming from a divorced family or biracial family.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:09:03] It's just. It's bad thinking.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:09:05] Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:09:06] That bias this for longevity.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:08] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:09:09] No matter what. When it could be incredibly dysfunctional.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:13] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So then I had. I had one. So we had kind of. We. We were in this, like, weird relationship where we would break up and then get back together. So. So at one point, we had broken up, but I think that we were going to meet up one day and, like, get together or just talk or something. And. And it was in the summer, so it was. The Provo Parade was going on. And if you.
Jeff Kindred [02:09:34] Have you.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:35] Have you been to the Provo Parade? Like, the fourth of July.
John Dehlin [02:09:37] I actually have.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:38] It's huge. Yeah, it's just. It's really fun, and. And it's just huge. So I was like. I was like, let's. Let's meet up after the Provo parade or something. I don't know. And so. So I was kind of, like, wandering around, and I. I randomly ran into his dad because he had been there with his family, and then we were gonna meet up after, so I ran into his dad, but not the rest of the family wasn't there. So he was just kind of like, oh, hey. And I was like, hi. So we kind of exchanged pleasantries, and then I moved on. And then later, I saw this had. You know, that I had been dating, and I was like, oh, I ran into your dad. And he. And he was like, oh, were you wearing that, like, the clothes that I was wearing? And I was literally wearing, like, shorter shorts, like, you know, like. And maybe, like, a tank top. And I feel like I was just like. I. Like, it was like one of the first times I was like, oh, my gosh. Am I. Am I trash? Like, am I just like, you know, like, what's going on? Like, so I was kind of like, oh, my gosh. This is something else I need to do so that I can be a better person in the church is I need to change the way that I dress, because obviously this is not something that is making me a good, worthy person.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:50] Wow.
Larissa Kindred [02:10:50] So anyways, we actually dated. We were kind of, like, off and on. It was tumultuous until. And then we were kind of off. And then Jeff and I met, so. So it was my relationship before. Before Jeff and I were dating, so.
Jeff Kindred [02:11:05] And God gave him the okay to marry her. After we got engaged, there was, like a.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:10] There was, like.
Larissa Kindred [02:11:10] There was a little bit of drama after. Like, Jeff and I were kind of serious. There was kind of like a re. Like, oh, wait, I think. I think I am. I think the spirit is telling me that, like, from this other guy. Yeah. I was kind of. Kind of like, okay, I'm done with this now. But anyways, so. So, yeah, that was kind of a thing. I think that, again, this is another one of these things that made me really think, like, if I can dress in a certain way and do certain things, then I will be more acceptable in the church, you know?
Margi Dehlin [02:11:40] So, yeah, it's interesting because on a level, that was. You know, Jeff had his optimization own kind of journey on a mission, and you're having yours.
Larissa Kindred [02:11:51] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:51] In your own way. And it's hitting you, I think, in ways that, you know, definitely with the appearance and modesty thing, the way it hits more women, what you look like.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:02] Yes. As opposed to.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:05] But you're both on it.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah, Definitely.
John Dehlin [02:12:09] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:10] Yeah.
Jeff and Larissa Meet and Get Married
John Dehlin [02:12:11] So, Jeff, do we come back to. To kind of integrate your story back in. We last left you coming home from your mission as a. As ap.
Jeff Kindred [02:12:21] Do you want to share your EMT story?
Larissa Kindred [02:12:23] Oh, yeah. Okay. I had one. I had one experience, and I think it's. I think this is valuable because I have recently reframed this experience. So I had a strong spiritual experience when I was doing my firefighter training. So when I was growing up, I kind of was. Was somebody who, you know, even though I'm very sensitive, I don't feel like I was, you know, like, people will talk about how they experience the spirit, and I felt like I was not having experiences like that. And I thought it was because I just wasn't very righteous. Right. And so by the time I was in college, I. I thought that I had not felt the spirit, and it was probably my fault, you know, Like, I was like, yeah, I don't. I haven't felt that I haven't had these experiences. And you always hear people stand up and. And sacrament meeting, and they're telling these, like, really, like, miraculous stories or emotional things. And I was always like, I wish that I was the person that would have that experience, because that's how I equated it. It wasn't like, oh, that person's really kind of extra. And so they, like, you know, like, they're viewing their experiences that way. It was like, no really special, righteous people have those experiences, and I've never had one of those experiences. So I had this experience when I was doing my firefighter training, and I think I. I made it into this experience. It was how I viewed it because I needed to have one of these experiences so badly. So at the end, to pass your firefighter. To become a firefighter, you have to do written tests, but you also have to do physical agility tests. And I'm a female, and I'm also. Especially when I was in college, I was pretty small, and there was just a couple of women in the class. And then there's. There's these, like, tough men and. And, you know, that are drawn to, like, this type of work. So I had to do. I had to pass, like, the actual firefighter agility training to pass the class. And so I was just sick about it. I was, like, so stressed out. There's one section of it that's actually like, confined spaces where you, like, go through this, like, trailer, and they've got, like, different, like. Like, boxes and things in the way. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna crush that. I can, like, get through these, like, little spaces. But you have to do the whole thing with an SCBA on your back. So with your breathing tube. And you have to be wearing full gear. So I had to be wearing full gear and an oxygen tank on my back. And I had to do this whole thing that, even without those things, would have been an extreme challenge for me. And I honestly believed. I don't think I can do this. I haven't had a lot of physically taxing things happen to me in my life. And so I was like, there's.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:56] There's.
Larissa Kindred [02:14:56] There's just no way that I can do this. And so. So. And this is. I'm. I'm now at the point in my life where I'm, like, reading my scriptures. And I'm being pretty churchy. So literally the night before, I'm just sick about this test. And I'm just like, should I be sick and go to the hospital? Like, should I fake my own death? Like, should I. Should I just, like, slip away? But so I'm reading my scriptures, and I read in Alma. And I think it's like, Alma, I don't even remember anymore. Now it's like. It's probably, like, Alma 20. And it's when, like, these. It's when, like, the sons of Mosiah meet up with Alma again after they've had their missions. And they're kind of, like, talking about, like, this is amazing, and we're still, like, brothers in Christ, and we had so much success. And then one of them says, like, hey, cool it. You're. You're boasting. And I don't know who the speaker is, but they say, like, no, I do not boast in myself. I only boast in Christ. Because in Christ, we can do all things. Things. So this is what I read. And I was like, no. I feel like this was my. This was meant for me, right? So I really was like, no, I can do this because I can do it through God, right? Like, God will help me do this. So, anyway, so I. I just go the next morning, and I. And I'm going through my test, and it was so hard. It was like, you have to, like, drag somebody. Like you're taking somebody out of a building. So I do the whole thing, and at the end, I have one One task left. And it's. You have to roll up those. The la. You know, the ladders that are really long and use a rope to extend them. So you've got to do this, and you have to go. They have to go up and down several times. So I'm just dead. I'm, like, totally exhausted, and I'm just there. And so I'm just, like, doing these. And at that point, I was like, okay, I really think I'm spent. Like, I. I'm so close, but I don't think I can get to the end. And all my friends, like, that were in the fire class with me are, like, around me, and they're, like, cheering me on, and they're just like, no, you got this, like. And it was just like. So it was, like, a great experience. So I'm just doing it, and my arms are, like, kind of getting numb and weird, but I just did it. So I did it, and I finished it. And the way that I framed this in my mind was like, no, I didn't do it. God did it. And so this. This, like, became a thing for me. And I was like, yes, now I have an experience that I can tell people so that they'll know that I can be spiritual, too. Like, God also will bless me with spiritual experiences. And it wasn't until. It's so sad because it wasn't until very recently I brought this up again. I was just thinking about it one day, and I was, like, talking to Jeff, and I said, do you remember my fire story that I used to tell all the time? And I said, this is so sad for me now to look at this, because I was a girl who was very insecure, and I could have really have used that experience to say, no, you can do it. You did that. You did it. That's a hard thing. And you can do hard things. And part of the reason that you could do it is because your friends were around you and they were cheering you on. But instead I was like, no, I didn't do that. God did that. And so it's just so sad to me now to understand that, like, the way that we sometimes. The way that we frame things or the narrative around our experiences actually even takes some of the empowerment away from. From ourselves. That's. That's what happened to me in that experience is I wasn't like, yes, I can do hard things, because I did that really, really hard physical thing that one time. It. It wasn't like that. It was like, yeah, I. I know. I couldn't have done that. God did that for me.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:34] So. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:35] Anyway. Yeah, that's my fire story.
John Dehlin [02:18:39] Thanks for sharing.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:18:40] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:41] So this is. This is almost to the point where we may meet.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:44] Where.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:44] Where you and I. Where you and I meet, except. Oh, I guess. Yeah. So I was an EFY counselor, but I guess that. That happened after we. You and I had met, so. So we can talk about that.
John Dehlin [02:18:55] Did you guys meet?
Jeff Kindred [02:18:56] Yes, we go there.
John Dehlin [02:18:57] Yeah. Unless there's some pre meeting that's really important. Your story.
Jeff Kindred [02:19:00] No, I don't think so.
Larissa Kindred [02:19:02] I think that's it.
Jeff Kindred [02:19:02] I was. I had transferred up to the University of Utah. My plan was always to do medical school. Since I was like, I had seen a sports medicine doctor actually here in Salt Lake, Russ Toronto was his name, who was a primary care sports. A non surgical sports guy. And so that was always my goal. So I transferred to the University of Utah. Plan was to do medicine and got a job at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building at the hotel, at the restaurant up top, which was the Garden. They had the roof, which was the. The buffet, really super fancy. And then the Garden was the one on the other side. And so I got a job there and was working. And the talk was the new girl that got hired by the hotel Temple Square organization, which encapsulated all of the restaurants, you know, the Lion House and the Inn at Temple Square. And so Larissa had been hired at the Inn at Temple Square, but had been trained at our restaurant, but never when I was there. And so I'm hearing about her and very interested in the things that I'm hearing, but I never run into Larissa. So one night I'm like, hey, I had friends over at her restaurant, and actually one of the people, his wife was working over there. So we were like, let's go over there after work and I can finally meet Larissa. So we go over there, and she was not there, but the phone list was there that had her name. And they'd been telling me they were gonna give me her phone number. And so I got Larissa's number off of the phone list and called her, which I realize now after Larissa is a little creepy. It's a little creepy, but that's how we met. She didn't call me back for quite a while, by the way. I called her several times and she never called me back. But finally we finally went out on a date.
Larissa Kindred [02:20:52] So we kind of almost were a blind date because. Because Jeff called me before we had met or he had seen me or anything. But we had mutual friends and. Yeah, with. With the. At the Joseph Smith Memorial Building, there's several, you know, several restaurants, several things. And then the. The. The Inn at Temple Square is. I think it's gone now because I think they took it out when they did City Creek. But anyways, that had, like, the hotel and it also had a restaurant. But all of us, like, kind of would sometimes work at different things or we'd cover shifts. It was like the same computer system, so we all kind of knew each other. So our friends kind of like, facilitated this. Yeah. And then Jeff. Jeff got my phone number off the employee phone list. And then just. Yeah, we just. So we ended up. We ended up going out. Well, I went over after. After he wore me down a little bit. Then I went over after work one day. I walked over to the Garden restaurant. And then we. So then we actually met in person and talked for a little bit, and then we went out. Out.
John Dehlin [02:21:49] So many of us were taught in Sunday school as Mormon kids growing up to have kind of a checklist of. I mean, we were, you know, it'd be.
Larissa Kindred [02:21:58] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:21:58] 12 or 14 or 16, and it's like, pull out a sheet of paper. Who do you want to marry and what are the criteria?
Larissa Kindred [02:22:05] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:22:05] And for. For a woman, it's what, return missionary, right?
Margi Dehlin [02:22:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:22:10] Righteous priesthood holder.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:11] Righteous priesthood holder.
John Dehlin [02:22:12] And for a man, it might. For a boy, it might be, what, What A spiritual.
Jeff Kindred [02:22:18] Someone who wants to be a homemaker.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:20] Right.
Jeff Kindred [02:22:20] I think these are the. Really. I mean, that's sad, but I think that is part of what we. Part of what we valued or looked for.
John Dehlin [02:22:27] And I'm guessing your checklist didn't say divorced biracial person, right? Yeah. Who had a wayward college experience. Not to shame you, but I mean, yeah, but he probably ap on the mission. That's certainly one that could have been on your checkbox.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:22:44] So I guess I'm. I'm. Were you thinking about your checkbox as you were dating each other and how did you match. How did you sync the prospective spouse with your checkboxes, if you want to share.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:59] So I don't. I don't know. I mean, Jeff. Jeff had a lot of things going for him, and I knew he was pre med, and obviously that's a check box. That's a big thing. Yeah, I, you know, like, you went. It wasn't. But it was. Especially me coming from a fairly unstable situation and very financially unstable situation. And so, you know, I think Jeff represented for me like some level of security and. Yeah, he was. Had been ap. And he was, you know, active and going hard in the church. And so, you know, I. I had kind of recently gone through this thing where I was like, no, I'm going to be that person. And so I feel like, for me, as far as, like, the checklist, Jeff really, like, suited the checklist. I had other issues that we'll talk about maybe after this. But I don't know how you, like, how did you get over your like.
Jeff Kindred [02:23:48] Well, I think. I mean, a. I didn't know about Larissa's little wild time. Right? I mean, we did not.
Larissa Kindred [02:23:56] Okay. I wasn't, like, that wild.
Jeff Kindred [02:23:57] No, I know you weren't that wild,
Margi Dehlin [02:23:58] but I'm just saying, I love the wild.
Jeff Kindred [02:24:05] Extreme. It's so important to point that out. It really is, because what we call wild in the church or a Mormon
Larissa Kindred [02:24:12] girl, which is like, I was kind of, like, making out with a lot of boys.
Jeff Kindred [02:24:17] But no, I think when Larissa and I met, she was really in that churchy zone. So we. So I feel like we had a lot of great, you know, what I call spiritual talks or the church. You know, the church was the base, and to me, that was the most important thing. And so I felt like, as one of the, you know, one of the leaders had said that if the church is the base, then you can make anything work.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:44] Right?
Jeff Kindred [02:24:45] I don't remember who said that, but. But one of them said Kimballer.
John Dehlin [02:24:48] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:24:48] Yeah. Two people who are dedicated to the
Jeff Kindred [02:24:50] church, committed to the church. Like, you can make it work. So I think that was the thing, to me that really. That really excited me about Larissa was that this is a. I mean, this beautiful girl who also is a very spiritual girl. And that was kind of enough for me to think. And we've talked about this. I mean, there may be some level of me feeling this, Enjoying this power differential, too, of her coming from a broken home. I think this is a very real thing. Even though it's not conscious in me, I think it's a very real thing.
John Dehlin [02:25:23] Sometimes. If you were. I. I come from a divorced home. Whenever I use that term, broken home, I get a viewer listener, stop calling her home broken. You know, it's a good. Yeah, I. I never thought about that growing up, but people don't. Like. Some people don't like that term. Not to correct you, just.
Jeff Kindred [02:25:38] Yeah, no, yeah, I agree.
Larissa Kindred [02:25:40] But. But I feel like that's.
John Dehlin [02:25:41] That's how we view it.
Larissa Kindred [02:25:42] It's how we view it. And I think it's only recently that people are saying, like, no, it's a restructuring or, you know, like, like, I think that it was always called a broken home when, like, it. When we were, you know, when we were growing up, it was just like, oh, that's sad. They have a broken.
John Dehlin [02:25:55] And I remember dating girls at BYU thinking, well, that's going to be a. A debit on my checklist, but hopefully I could be super righteous and overcome. Yeah, I dated Jeffrey Holland's daughter Mary for a little bit. I just remember thinking self conscious about that. Like, that's not going to be viewed well, but I'll try and be righteous in other ways.
Larissa Kindred [02:26:13] Yeah, hustle.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:14] Hustle more.
John Dehlin [02:26:15] Yeah, that's funny.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:17] Jeff.
Larissa Kindred [02:26:17] So Jeff dated a girl before his mission, and she had dated James E. Fouse Faust's grandson and her family, like,
Jeff Kindred [02:26:26] she was the youngest. Her dad was quite, quite old. And man, that was the most important thing to him. I mean, he did not like me at all because she had dated and he had gone on a mission. So she was dating him. He left on a missing. I started dating her and he just could not ever like me at all
Larissa Kindred [02:26:47] because he knew what he wanted her.
Jeff Kindred [02:26:49] So important to James E. Fouse grandson
Larissa Kindred [02:26:51] was the Mormon royalties of so.
Jeff Kindred [02:26:56] So, yeah, so that I think that kind of was the basis of our foundation for when we started dating. And as we do in Mormondom, things move fast. And Larissa had planned to go on a mission. Maybe you want to tell that.
Larissa Kindred [02:27:11] Yeah. So because I was like in this mode of being, like, I'm going to be that person in the church. I was like, I'm going to go on a mission. And my patriarchal blessing actually said that I would go on a mission.
John Dehlin [02:27:24] And so did you get a lineage?
Larissa Kindred [02:27:26] I did, yes.
John Dehlin [02:27:28] Your mom helped you with that? You got the lineage?
Larissa Kindred [02:27:32] I did get a line. Yeah. I actually. Yeah, I'm Ephraim. Yeah. So I. I'm Ephraim. I'm saying it like it's a fact.
John Dehlin [02:27:40] Like it's a thing.
Larissa Kindred [02:27:41] I'm from the lineage of Ephraim. So. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So I actually have kind of a weird relationship with my patriarchal blessing because it was another thing when I was growing up that I was like, maybe this will help me to know I'm special. And then it was very. It was just very kind of run of the mill. And so, yeah, so then I. And I.
Jeff Kindred [02:28:02] What was the one comment?
Larissa Kindred [02:28:04] I have one terrible part of my patriarchal blessing that says, like, it says, like, should you ever, like, go astray, just know that you can come back. And so, like, I'm 14 and I'm reading this and I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? Like, I'm. I'm really like, off the rails. And now I'm like, what was up with that patriarch? Was he's just like being a jerk. I don't know.
John Dehlin [02:28:27] Because everybody else gets like, you'll. You'll run rise in the morning of the first resurrection.
Jeff Kindred [02:28:31] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:28:32] Mine was like, if you go astray,
Margi Dehlin [02:28:34] which is like when you defile.
Larissa Kindred [02:28:41] That's literally what it was like if
Jeff Kindred [02:28:43] you happen to defile yourself.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:44] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:28:47] So.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:28:47] So mine was like, as you pursue righteousness, you will be crowned with glories.
Larissa Kindred [02:28:52] Yeah, that's not what mine was saying. Mine was like, like, when you. So. Yeah, but mine did say that I would serve a mission, so. And I think there was kind of some vagueness to the, like, it was kind of saying, like, at some point in your life, like, you will, like, you will have an opportunity to serve a full time mission. So I'm, I'm going hard and I'm deciding to be way churchy. So I had gotten mission papers from my bishop. Not never submitted them, but I had, I had got them. And I was like, I'm going to go on a mission. And I'm months away from being 21, which is how old girls had to be at the time. And so I was kind of like, I'm not gonna worry about boys right now. I'm just going to hunker down and then I'm gonna go on a mission. And that's when I met Jeff. So Jeff and I, during our dating years were in like a constant kind of like struggle. Cause Jeff was 24, so he was old. He was getting to be old for a, for a.
John Dehlin [02:29:47] For a Mormon male becoming a menace to society.
Larissa Kindred [02:29:50] Almost. Yeah, he was almost there. So he was like, I'm ready to get married.
Margi Dehlin [02:29:54] Put a rush on this order.
Larissa Kindred [02:29:55] Yeah, yeah. He was feeling it. And I'm just. I'm 20 years old. And I was like, I don't know. And I really wanted to go on a mission. And I feel like this is important for me to prove myself or to know that I can be good enough. And so we just kind of like went back and forth. And Jeff pulled out a lot of like, church quotes to me.
Jeff Kindred [02:30:17] President Hinckley, Gordon Hinckley. I'm getting myself out of the habit. Maybe you remember this talk when he said. He said, stake presidents. I'm coming to you because I don't know who else to go to to tell them that they have too many girls and they don't have enough missions for all these girls. I think because they didn't. They felt like they didn't have enough safe place. Do you remember this was in the 90s? It was. It was when I got home from my mission. I Bet it was 96, 97. I'm sorry, no, 99, 2000. Ish is when it would have been right after my mission. And so I'm quoting her this, you know, like, trying to manipulate her to not go on a mission, which is so terrible. But this is what I learned.
Larissa Kindred [02:30:58] It's funny. Mormon courtships are funny too, because, you know, like, you can't wait 18 months for your girlfriend to go on a mission. It's too long. You know, like, you could have met and got married to, like, eight other people at that time. So it was kind of like, that's too long. And so it was just like a real thing. And we had this, like, experience that I feel like it is funny, but it's also a little. A little bit toxic where it just was hard to decide. I just was, like, so torn. So we prayed about it together. Like, we were like, let's both just pray about it. Like, we're together, but we're, like, praying separately about it. And we prayed and, you know, like, then I'm done. And I was kind of like, yeah, I don't really know. Like, I just wasn't getting something. And Jeff.
Jeff Kindred [02:31:43] But luckily I got a revelation.
Larissa Kindred [02:31:46] Jeff was like, I feel like it's gonna work out. I feel that's what he said. He didn't say. He just said. He goes, I feel like everything is gonna work out. And so, you know, I. On some level, like, I was the
Jeff Kindred [02:31:59] priesthood holder, so therefore, there are a lot of Mormon.
John Dehlin [02:32:03] Young Mormon women.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:05] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:05] Who?
John Dehlin [02:32:06] Some guys hot for them, and they pray. And, like, most people don't get an answer. But then the guy says, well, I got the answer. I served a mission.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:32:15] I'm a priesthood holder.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:16] Oh, I know.
John Dehlin [02:32:16] I got the answer. So you're good.
Jeff Kindred [02:32:18] So you don't need to worry about. You don't need to worry about. God gave it to me.
John Dehlin [02:32:21] So true.
Jeff Kindred [02:32:21] That makes sense.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:24] I got the Revelation 4.
John Dehlin [02:32:27] So convenient. It's really Joseph getting the revelation for evidence. Polygamy.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:32:33] Exactly.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:32:34] Practice polygamy or you'll be condemned.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:36] Says, God, don't shoot the messenger.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:32:41] So you had to do it. I mean, if he got the revelation. God's not gonna lie to a former ap.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:45] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:32:46] Right.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:48] Yeah, of course.
Jeff Kindred [02:32:49] We actually broke up for a little while. I don't remember if it was before that or after that.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:53] It was probably after that. So we broke up for a little bit. So we.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:56] Also.
Larissa Kindred [02:32:57] There was a little bit of family issues when we were dating, so it could be that I'm very problematic. I'm not sure. But Jeff's family also didn't accept me very well.
Jeff Kindred [02:33:08] Well, four sisters and a mom who's extremely controlling, and I'm the golden child. Was a setup for whoever I married was not going to be a simple, easy move. And it was not. No. And they. Yes. I think. I think my sisters would admit that now that they were not very nice to Larissa. My mom certainly became aware, and it caused turmoil in our marriage for a long time, to a point where I had to not talk to my mom for a couple of years at one point.
John Dehlin [02:33:42] Whoa.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:43] Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine.
Jeff Kindred [02:33:45] Yeah. And my mom and I never had the same relationship again, unfortunately, because I chose Larissa, and I was like, no, this is the way it has to be. And that's. I mean, we moved away from medical school and never looked back because we're like, oh, my gosh. Having space was really one of the best things that ever happened to us. But jumping ahead.
Larissa Kindred [02:34:06] Yeah. So we had kind of Id'd this, though, when we were dating, that there was some family issues. And so between that and the mission thing, it was kind of like, I don't know. So we. So Jeff dumped me. Jeff broke up with me for. And it was. We were maybe apart for just a couple of weeks, but we. We got along great together. Like, we were a good pair. And I think that we were very, like, drawn to each other. So I can't remember. I think I was the one, because I. I really was going through this thing where I was like, am I missing an opportunity if I don't do a mission? Am I missing an opportunity? Will I not be who I want to be in the church if I don't serve a mission, if I don't have these experiences? And then also, it was really difficult to make this decision because I was constantly praying to know, and I really felt like I didn't ever get any answers. And so I was like, how am I supposed to make this huge decision and never have any answers? You know? You know, like, I.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:01] This.
Larissa Kindred [02:35:02] It's just, like, too big. It's. It just was, like, so much for me. But I do feel like when we broke up, I kind of was, like, trying to come to a place where I was like, no, I need to make this decision. I'm sure maybe. Maybe God doesn't speak to me because he wants me to be accountable for this. And so I did kind of get to a place where I was like. Like, I need to decide if I want to marry Jeff. Like, if. Is this the person I want to get married to? And I. I honestly felt like it was a little early for me to get married. And now I feel like at this point in my life, I feel like it was a lot early, but even at the time, I was like, this is early, and I'm not done with college, and. But I thought, but he is the person that I want to marry, and so, like, should I just go for this and do this? So I felt I was feeling, like, good enough, especially with the time that we had spent apart. So I think I called you, and I remember we went on a walk together, and we were kind of talking and hashing it out, and I was kind of like, I'm feeling better about letting go of the mission thing. We. We have to, like, talk about our family dynamics, though, and we. I think that this was actually a really healthy thing that we did early, is that we identified it and we said. Said, like, we have to go into our marriage knowing that, like, we're gonna have to manage this and also that we have to prioritize us as a couple first before, you know, and, like, let's not talk to. Like, don't talk to your mom if you and I get in a fight or, you know, like, we. We have to navigate this in a certain way. There were still so many issues that we dealt with, but I do think at that point, it was really good for us to say, like, if we're gonna do this together, we know that we have to be a unit, and we have to be us. Like, we. It has to be about us first, and they have to be on the periphery. And I think that was enough for me to be like, yes, like, we're gonna do this, and we're gonna get married. And so we. After that, we were decided to get married.
Margi Dehlin [02:37:04] That's so insightful. Yeah. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:37:09] Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was a journey. But, I mean, I. I do think it was good. And there's so many things. When I look back at us dating, I feel like there's so many things that I'm like, oh, I don't. I can see that there was issues brewing. There or, you know, like the way that we kind of set up our lives, like, that wasn't good. But I do think that that was like, kind of how we came to decide that we were going to get married and how we were gonna navigate it. I do feel like that put us on a path of saying, like, it's, it's like you and me, like, we're gonna do this thing together. And I. And I think you'll see how this plays out in our life and even in our faith transition as well.
Margi Dehlin [02:37:44] Okay, that's beautiful.
Larissa Kindred [02:37:45] Thanks.
John Dehlin [02:37:47] Okay, so you get married.
Larissa Kindred [02:37:50] Well, so I was. So I was an EFY counselor that summer. So I had applied to be an EFY counselor, which is a highly coveted job. It's, it's honestly. And I feel like that summer, even, even, even now with the lens I have now, when I look back on it, I'm like, like it was such a great time. Like, it's just. It's the funnest atmosphere. And you're with. You're with like so many fun people, and it was just a great time. And so I was hired probably before we met, it was maybe like in the fall, and then we had met that winter. So I knew I was going to EFY that summer. And that that year they were, I think they were trying this out. But they, they had something called performance counselors. And it was people who like, had experience singing and dancing. And what they would do is they would teach you like, all the music and the dances and stuff, and then they would send us to the, like, the regional EFYs. So I did one session at BYU that summer, and then I did, I think, like six straight sessions at Southern Virginia University. And it was all of the same counselors there. So we just, like, some of them are still like my close friends to this day. Like, we just had a really, really tight knit group of friends. And so I was at efy, and EFY is the most sexually charged atmosphere, like, in probably in the world, both because of the kids and the counselors. Like, it's just, there's like so many hormones going and like, these kids have not been around a ton of LDS people. So you've got the kids and their hormones are raging, but even the counselors, like, all the counselors are like, really charismatic and, you know, like, it was competitive to be. And so I feel like it's just the whole atmosphere was just like, like it's just people are crazy. So the night before, I flew to Virginia to do six weeks at efy. Jeff proposed to me.
Jeff Kindred [02:39:40] Had to do it before.
Margi Dehlin [02:39:41] He had to.
Jeff Kindred [02:39:42] I don't know if it would have happened.
Larissa Kindred [02:39:43] He had to get a ring on it. So, yeah, so Jeff. Jeff proposed me right before efy. So I spent the whole summer. So I did six weeks at Virginia, and then I did one in Kentucky, and then I came back and I think I did one more session at byu and then it was the end of the summer, and then we got married in September. So we. We didn't even spend our engagement together. Together, because I was at EFY that whole summer.
John Dehlin [02:40:07] Wow.
Larissa Kindred [02:40:08] But, yeah, but it was a. I. It was a great experience. I. I mean, I know now, I know that, like, there were things that we taught. We had. There was one day that we would separate the boys from the girls, and the boys had like a pre mission talk. And the girls, we talked to them about modesty. I don't know why those two things were comparable, but we, like. So there were problematic things that I participated in at efy, but I still
John Dehlin [02:40:32] feel like girls admissions. Girls are modest.
Larissa Kindred [02:40:34] Yeah, that's right. Girls, cover yourselves. Yeah, let's talk about how you dress. Exactly.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:39] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:40:40] And I mean, I know that I sent girls back to their rooms because we were checking, like, hemlines and things like that. So there's things that I'm not proud of or happy with that I participated, but I still feel like, overwhelmingly it was a very happy experience for me. And it's something that I wanted to for my kids. I had. I had kind of like been my. The whole time we had kids. I was like, I can't wait for you guys to go to efy. So anyways, yeah, it was a good summer. So while I was at efy, also because I was teaching modesty, and I had had these issues where I had not dressed modestly and felt like I was judged for it. So I had decided that summer I was like, I'm gonna dress as if I wear garments. So I didn't wear temple garments yet, but this is just like how hardcore I was being. I was like, I'm going to show God that I'm, you know, like, I'm. I this. I'm preparing for the temple and I. I understand this principle and I'm teaching it to the girls. So even though it was. It was in the summer and it was like, Virginia, it was so hot. But I was like, I'm gonna dress as if I wear garments.
John Dehlin [02:41:46] Which means.
Larissa Kindred [02:41:47] Which means shorts down to your knee, which is terrible. And then no tank top, you know, like, shoulders Covered.
Margi Dehlin [02:41:53] Yeah. No.
Larissa Kindred [02:41:54] Nothing. No, no midriff showing and no tight fitting clothes. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I feel like that was like, where I completed my, like my intense arc before. Before Jeff and I got married.
Margi Dehlin [02:42:10] So.
John Dehlin [02:42:11] So do you want to talk about. So your wedding or your marriage?
Margi Dehlin [02:42:16] What do we want to say?
John Dehlin [02:42:17] Is there anything worth. We don't have to dig into it. Like, there's nothing important to your story,
Larissa Kindred [02:42:21] maybe, except going to the temple the first time you. So je. Obviously Jeff was already endowed because he had gone before his mission. So Jeff was with me when I went to the temple the first time. And you know, like, if you get, if you get married, if you get endowed right before you get married, you know, a lot of times your fiance will be there and they'll like take you through the veil, which if people don't know the temple, they won't know anyway.
John Dehlin [02:42:48] So.
Larissa Kindred [02:42:49] So Jeff, Jeff did that. So Jeff was with me when I, When I was endowed. And I, I kind of feel like I have a fun. I had a funny relationship to, with my first temple experience because, Because I loved history and I loved ancient civilizations. I think I really understood that, that there was a long history of communities using ritual as a way to create community and to bond. And it was rites of passage. So I actually was totally like, fine with the temple. And I went and I went. I was in doubt at a time where you were wearing the shield, the poncho that was open on the sides. But again, I'm just like, fine with my body. And I've learned about these rituals and rites of passage. And so I was just like, yeah, yeah, this is fine. Everything's like, normal. And I'm again, I'm sad that I wasn't like, oh, this is. This is not okay. Or like, nobody talked to me about this, so this isn't fully consensual. Like, none of that, none of that was even a thing for me. And I, I wish that I had had the, the presence of mind and the education to know what wasn't okay about it. But it did not hit me at the time. I was like, this is great. And my mom was there and my, you know, my, my, her parents are there and my siblings are there, and this is a family that I had felt very marginalized from in my life. And they're all there and my mom's crying. And so I felt extremely validated in the temple. Like, I'm finally going to be the daughter that like, gets the attention or I'm finally going to be the one that it can be about me now. Like, I can be important now because I did the thing that is making my mom cry in the temple. And so. So, yeah, that's it. I did not. I did not ID anything weird in the temple, which is weird. But, yeah, I was like, this is great.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:38] Sure.
Larissa Kindred [02:44:40] So, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:44:40] All right.
Larissa Kindred [02:44:41] And then we got married.
John Dehlin [02:44:43] Yeah. How was. How was it for you, Jeff getting married, all that?
Jeff Kindred [02:44:48] Yeah. So it was funny because our first year of marriage, I feel like it was. I felt like it was pretty easy. I think we had this talk at one point where she's like, this is really hard. And I'm like, oh, I like that. It was really easy. So we're experiencing totally separate things. And this became a theme for, I think, our marriage for a long time. Because, you know, the thing that we don't realize in the church is you're chasing. At least in our situation, which I know is probably more norm, is you go after what the man is going to do. Right. So my goal was to go to medical school. So we never had a talk like, hey, is Larissa gonna finish school? Is Larissa going to, like, do something? Is Larissa going to, like, what about her? It was only. The discussion was only about where I get into medical school. That's where we're gonna go. And literally, we'd never had this talk, and we never had that talk for years. Right. And didn't realize, like, what was brewing because of this. Because that does not. Nobody. It doesn't bode well for anybody to be in that kind of a situation. And I think it's rampant in the church that this is the norm that we. That you do it for the men, because he's gonna be the breadwinner, and the wife is, you know, the second tier, because the most important thing for her is to be at home with the kids. And that was almost the expectation in our marriage, even though we never had even the conversation. Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:46:21] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:46:22] This was nothing we ever had an agreement, plan about or a discussion about. It was just the understood, which is really strange. But again, the church, that's the church's, you know, whatever. That's what they had ingrained in us
Margi Dehlin [02:46:40] to do, that those roles are the default.
Larissa Kindred [02:46:43] Absolutely. And I think that this is changing some. Like, I think if you talk to Gen Z, BYU students, female students, right now, I would say that they probably have a different take. But we were raised in, like, where they were saying, like, don't put your kids in daycare because you don't want someone else raising Your kids and, you know, like, you can get educated because that will help you be a good mom, but in the end, like, you need to support your husband. Like, I. I had heavy. Heavy messaging like that when I was growing up in the 80s that, like, if you. Unless you absolutely have to work, you should not be working. It's selfish. And so I don't think that I. Yeah. Like, we kind of accepted this role that was kind of, like, given to us. And it wasn't till many years later that we had to say, like, I. I don't know that I chose this. Like, you know, like, this is. This was something given to me, but I don't think that I chose. And I definitely don't choose it anymore. But. But that kind of is what we settled into.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:44] Yeah, that makes sense.
John Dehlin [02:47:46] Yeah. I think Margi and I had a similar.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:47:48] Similar experience. Right. Okay. Well, we're. I think we're kind of coming to the end of this first part.
Larissa Kindred [02:47:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:47:57] So what other parts of your stories do you want to take us up through before we kind of wrap up this part in preparation for when the things start to get tense?
Margi Dehlin [02:48:08] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.
Larissa Kindred [02:48:11] Yeah. I don't know if there's anything else.
Margi Dehlin [02:48:13] Let me ask. Ask.
Larissa Kindred [02:48:13] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:48:14] Like, you both have identified sexual dysfunction as a major theme.
Larissa Kindred [02:48:19] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:48:19] For your story. Do you want to talk about.
Jeff Kindred [02:48:22] No, because at this point, this was, I think not. We had not recognized. I mean, this is not. This had not become an issue yet. So. So, yeah, it. So I think. I think it's better to keep with it, to delve into that. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:48:37] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:48:38] And. And we. I mean, when we got married, this is. This is one of the fun things about getting married really young is that we don't. You don't even know how to have the. We didn't have conversations about this. We had. I mean, we had very, very little to none. Sexual education. And so, you know, like, you. A lot of. A lot of LDS people, and I don't think this is just LDS people. You know, like, for a long time, our parents just. Their generation didn't talk about sex. Like, their parents didn't talk to them about sex. And so I think. Think in general, a lot of us entered into marital situations with very little information. And so I think that that will come to play out in a lot of different ways, but we didn't have conversations about. About it. I don't think we had the language or the understanding to know, like, let's talk about this or let's hear about what your belief is on this or anything or what has been your experience? We just. Just. We just got married and then did the thing, but.
John Dehlin [02:49:40] Okay. Where'd you go to med school?
Jeff Kindred [02:49:43] To atsu. It's in Kirksville, Missouri. So Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine. The. The. The mother school is at still University Health Sciences.
John Dehlin [02:49:51] Okay. So Cody.
Jeff Kindred [02:49:53] Cody and Leah Young actually went. They were there with us.
Margi Dehlin [02:49:56] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:49:57] Cody and Leah were in our ward when we went there.
John Dehlin [02:49:59] Yeah, that's where Cody went to med school.
Margi Dehlin [02:50:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.
John Dehlin [02:50:02] Shout out to Cody and Leah.
Jeff Kindred [02:50:03] We love you.
Larissa Kindred [02:50:04] I know.
Margi Dehlin [02:50:04] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:50:05] Yeah. So fun. Yeah. They were in our ward for just a year and then they. They went somewhere for third and fourth year rotations and then.
John Dehlin [02:50:11] Do they know you're here today?
Larissa Kindred [02:50:13] No. And we don't.
John Dehlin [02:50:14] They're about to.
Margi Dehlin [02:50:14] We. We don't.
John Dehlin [02:50:16] We already texted Patrick Mason.
Jeff Kindred [02:50:17] Oh, you did?
John Dehlin [02:50:18] Yeah, they went. They went. They were with Patrick was at our award.
Larissa Kindred [02:50:23] Yeah. When the. The Mormon world is a small world, and I think when you've moved around like us, then you kind of. Kind of are like, oh, yeah, we know those people. And like, oh, yeah, those people are in award. So yeah, there's a few, like, people that we've connected with.
John Dehlin [02:50:35] Okay. So maybe to close. I just. I want to set it up. So you enter marriage, you're going to med school, you've checked off all the boxes. How did you envision the rest of your life playing out? Like, what are the.
Margi Dehlin [02:50:49] That's such a good question.
John Dehlin [02:50:50] That'll be the setup for the tension for part two.
Jeff Kindred [02:50:53] I think. I think we both envisioned me being a sports medicine doctor. Larissa bringing up our righteous kids and us having a very structured. And the things our parents didn't do with family home evening and scripture study and prayer. We were going to, like, our kids were going to be spiritual giants. We were going to go on missions. Missions after. And fulfill the patriarchal mission president.
Margi Dehlin [02:51:23] That was.
Larissa Kindred [02:51:24] That was one of my things. I was like. It was like, if we're. If I'm not gonna go on a mission, we're gonna go on missions when we're older. So, like, I think that we were both fairly, like, committed to this thing that, like, we're gonna do this and. And being a stay at home mom was the only option that had ever been presented to me. So I was fully like, yeah, he'll go to school and I'll support him
John Dehlin [02:51:44] and then I'll have kids would be born. How?
Larissa Kindred [02:51:47] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:51:47] Biologically, Right? Absolutely.
Larissa Kindred [02:51:50] Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that was the thought. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:51:52] Is that.
Larissa Kindred [02:51:52] That I would get pregnant and then. Yeah, so. So, yeah, I feel like at that point, we were just like, okay, let's do our thing.
John Dehlin [02:52:00] And then. And then eventually Jeff would become an apostle. Right, right.
Larissa Kindred [02:52:05] He still might. We don't know.
John Dehlin [02:52:08] But definitely serving bishoprics and sick presidencies and that kind of thing. Thing.
Larissa Kindred [02:52:12] Yeah, that was. Yeah, I think that was the essential.
Jeff Kindred [02:52:14] And I think. I think our goal. I mean, when you say goal, you know, you would never, like, say, this is a goal, but to be a mission president is like, yeah, that would be.
John Dehlin [02:52:22] Oh, yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:52:22] You know, you think that.
Larissa Kindred [02:52:23] Well, so Jeff was really close with his mission president and her and his wife, and we got together with them several times, and they've actually both passed now, and they were just really special people. But Jeff's his mission mom. I was talking to her one time, and she said, I know Jeff's gonna be a mission president someday. Like, she just felt like this. And now it's kind of funny to think about that, because I almost am like, yeah, he seems like the type, but it's mostly just because he's a doctor and he's a white male that is successful in life. Like, what does it take to be a mission president? But she told me that, and I kind of was like, wow. Like, yes, maybe someday Jeff will be a mission president.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:02] But.
Larissa Kindred [02:53:02] But anyways, yeah, we were on the path, though.
John Dehlin [02:53:05] Love it. Okay, well, that sets it. So stay tuned for part two, where you'll find out when it all falls apart, what happens to the Mormon story. All right, well, thanks for joining us for part two. Thanks so much, Chef and Larissa, for sharing your wonderful story so far. And, Margi, it's so great to have you.
Larissa Kindred [02:53:25] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:25] Thanks, babe.
John Dehlin [02:53:26] Yeah. All right, come back soon for part two of Jeff and Larissa's story, where we'll be talking about fertility issues, multiracial adoption, sexual dysfunction, breast cancer.
Larissa Kindred [02:53:42] It's going to be a roller coaster.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:46] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:53:47] All sorts of important and interesting themes in your Mormon story. Yeah. All right, thanks, everybody. We'll see you back for part two of Jeff and Larissa's story.
Medical School, Infertility, and Adoption
Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1685
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. I'm here with my amazing partner, Margi. Hey, Margi. Hey. And we are here in part two of another epic faith journey with an amazing couple, Jeff and Larissa Kindred. Hi, guys.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:16] Hi.
John Dehlin [00:00:17] Welcome back.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:18] Thanks.
John Dehlin [00:00:19] In part one, for those who missed it, pause, go back and watch and listen to part one. We talked about Jeff's upbringing in Cottonwood Heights, Utah, going to Brighton High School. He talked about an unfortunate groomy Boy Scout experience. He also talked about being a high school athlete, Basketball, tennis, going on to snow and then snow college and serving a mission and being AP and being kind of on the Mormon dream track. Larissa's story is really important because she talked about growing up as a biracial Mormon with great grandparents and grandparents and. And a dad who were all Japanese Americans, and what it was like growing up not only in a biracial Mormon home, in a biracial Asian home, but also when divorce happened and there were socioeconomic struggles. But she had a wonderful story of her doubling down as a Mormon. She's a dancer. She goes to Weber, messes around a little bit, but gets super serious and eventually meets, explores. Explores, meets her.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:23] Thank you.
Larissa Kindred [00:01:23] Marsh.
John Dehlin [00:01:24] Meets her returned AP missionary and pleases her Japanese grandmother mom by marrying a doctor. And they start living the dream. And they get married in the temple.
Larissa Kindred [00:01:33] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:01:34] And that's where we left off. How's that first summary?
Larissa Kindred [00:01:36] Yeah, that's perfect.
Jeff Kindred [00:01:36] Yeah, that's good.
John Dehlin [00:01:37] Yeah. So this episode, we're going to be talking about several things. We're going to be talking about infertility. We're going to be talking about biracial adoption in Mormonism, raising black kids in. In the Mormon Church. And we're also going to start to talk about gender roles, Larissa's feminist awakening, maybe, or at least their expiration and concern with gender roles. And we'll see how far we get. And there's going to be a part three as well. But without any further ado, guys, welcome back.
Larissa Kindred [00:02:05] All right, we're ready to get into this.
John Dehlin [00:02:08] So you guys get married and go to med school, right? And it's. What state again?
Jeff Kindred [00:02:12] Missouri.
John Dehlin [00:02:12] Missouri.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:13] So.
Larissa Kindred [00:02:13] So we. We lived about eight months in Utah while Jeff was finishing up at the University of Utah. And then we. We move away to. For him to go to medical school. And at that point, I've got about three years of school under my belt. And we decide that it. I don't know that we really decided it Just wasn't functional. We were going out of state, and this is before online school was a thing, but that was kind of what we knew would happen, is that he was going to school and that we would prioritize that. And so we moved to Missouri for him to go to medical school, and we just kind of dove right into.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:51] To the.
Larissa Kindred [00:02:52] To the medical school life.
John Dehlin [00:02:53] And it's. You know, it's worth noting that you gave up your undergraduate degree studies, or is that true or not true?
Larissa Kindred [00:02:59] Yes, it was. And you know what? I feel like I had a little bit of an inferiority complex because of it. You know, feeling like I'm not smart or, you know, like I wasn't driven enough or I should I have done this thing. So I actually became a really, really avid reader, and I've read, like, all of the classics, and I think it's just because I was so worried that I had, you know, like, lived below my potential. So I've read, like, Dostoyevsky. I've read, like, Warren Bees. Like, so I just. I went through, like, kind of a phase where I was just reading everything because I was so worried that I wasn't smart because I didn't finish college. So. But, yeah, so I. So I worked. So we went to Missouri, and we were in the Nauvoo stake. Oh, yeah. So. And when you live outside of Utah, you. You don't. Your stake is big. So we drove two hours to Nauvoo. That's where our steak center was. So it was a really wide area to cover for the stake. So we were in Missouri, and we had probably been there just a few weeks. And we had mentioned in the first part that our first year of marriage was a little bit tricky, and part of that was our family situation. So within the first maybe three weeks of being in Missouri, we felt so much better. Like, we could kind of breathe a little bit because. Just because of the space. So we decided we would never live in Utah again. So we just, like, it was. It was that. That refreshing for us that I kept thinking I'd never lived outside of Utah. So I was like, am I homesick? Like, I kept checking myself, but then after a few weeks, I was like, no, this just actually feels really right for us. And so we. We just knew after that we wouldn't go back to Utah. Just was a little problematic for us.
John Dehlin [00:04:50] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:52] So normally your. Your job on the Mormon train is to start having babies.
Larissa Kindred [00:04:57] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:04:57] How'd that go?
Margi Dehlin [00:04:59] So.
Larissa Kindred [00:04:59] So we.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:00] We.
Larissa Kindred [00:05:01] We tried. So we. So Jeff's Jeff's deep in school and of course, yeah, you're. You're married for, you know, a year and you think it's. It's time we should start trying to have kids. You know, I was always taught, don't
John Dehlin [00:05:11] you, 21 by then, I'm, I'm 20.
Larissa Kindred [00:05:13] I'm probably 22.
Jeff Kindred [00:05:14] What else would we do?
Larissa Kindred [00:05:15] Yes, I'm reaching that. And so, yeah, so we probably had been married a year and started talking about having kids. So we had tried to have kids for a little bit and it just, it didn't really happen. So. Yeah, so we started kind of looking into what the options are. And both Jeff and I have sisters who placed babies for adoption. So it was Jeff's older sister placed a baby for adoption, and then my younger sister did while we were dating. So we had had quite a few convers about adoption and about, you know, like, we had seen that it was a positive thing for, for our families and our sisters and so that it was kind of a natural step for us when I couldn't get pregnant.
John Dehlin [00:06:07] Okay, so how do you. You're not really prepared for that. They don't teach you one out of 10 or whatever if you aren't going to be able to have kids. But it's. Infertility is surprisingly common.
Larissa Kindred [00:06:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:06:21] For how almost little to none it's talked about.
Larissa Kindred [00:06:25] Right, Right. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:06:26] And very challenging, I think, when you, you think, I mean, you've always planned that you're going to have kids, and then when you can't, you know, immediately start thinking, oh, what, what, what am I doing wrong? Or what, you know, what did we do wrong? Or what's going on? And so then you. So we had decided we were going to try and go through the adoption process, which is a huge. I mean, you really don't understand how just a long and tedious process it is to go through it. And at that time, the church was still not just facilitating, they were actually,
Larissa Kindred [00:07:04] they were in the legal side. So eventually the church is going to get out. Gets out of the legal part of the adoptions. But they were still doing it at the time. So while we were in Missouri, we. Jeff. Jeff was there for two years for medical school, and then they would send you out to other. Other schools, hospitals. Yeah, hospitals to do your third and fourth year rotations. So we knew we were going to be moving to a different state after the third year. So we kind of just sat on it for a little bit and said, like, let's wait because each state has their own adoption Laws. And so we knew if we started doing a home study and doing our adoption paperwork in Missouri, we would have to redo it when we moved. And so we just kind of sat on it for a little while. And so, yeah, while we were in Missouri, we were just kind of doing the thing.
John Dehlin [00:07:58] What were you doing to pass the time?
Larissa Kindred [00:08:02] So I was teaching dance while I was there. I had taught dance through high school and through college, and we were in a really small town, and there wasn't a lot of. There just wasn't resources or lots of dance studios. So I actually opened, like a small. I rented a space and opened up a little dance studio. Yeah, so I did that while we were there. And then. And I taught. I taught early morning seminary while we were there. And so. Yeah, and Jeff was just kind of like, doing the school thing. And the school recruits heavily out of byu.
Jeff Kindred [00:08:35] It's in the Nauvoo Stake. And the town. They liked the. They knew that the BYU actually just out of Utah in general. But I think a third of my class probably was Utah.
Larissa Kindred [00:08:47] It was a lot. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:08:48] Members.
Larissa Kindred [00:08:49] So there was tons of students that kind of drove the ward. You know, like, there was so many. I think that they had identified that, you know, if they get these LDS students, usually they were like nice family people and, you know, they've got wives that are contributing to the community. So there was a really big community of other students while we were there. And most of them had kids already. You know, like, they had had kids at byu, so most of our friends had kids or even a couple of kids.
John Dehlin [00:09:21] And so is that hard to see your peers having kids and maybe to be asked what's going on or.
Jeff Kindred [00:09:27] Yeah, it was a stressful. It was a stressful time going through that. And I remember. I remember us having a talk once, and I was like, you know, we need to just enjoy the time. Do you remember that? Enjoy the time before? You know, but it's a stressful thing to go through. I mean, there is no two ways about it. It was not a very.
Larissa Kindred [00:09:44] And then, you know, like, so many people had babies while you're waiting to have a baby. And I kind of. I took on, like, a personal stance that I wouldn't go to any baby showers just because it was frustrating and it was hard, and you kind of feel like you're an outsider. And so I. I was like. I just. I don't go to baby showers. It's just not what I do. And so. Yeah. Because it's just. It's just. Yeah. Very consistent. Like, everyone's in that phase of life. Everyone's having kids, and I couldn't get pregnant. And so, yeah, it can be. It can be frustrating. I feel like there was. I feel like a lot of people talk to us about doing infertility treatments, and it didn't feel super natural to us. And so, yeah, it just didn't really feel like us. And so we just kind of waited it out and said, we'll see what happens. And then we ended up on the adoption route.
John Dehlin [00:10:43] So you didn't do the super expensive shots and the take your temperature and all that super painful fertility treatment stuff?
Larissa Kindred [00:10:52] No, we didn't. And, you know, I. I think that I didn't understand this about myself till later, but I actually think that I had a hard time even getting my brain around wanting to be. I wanted to have kids, but it was hard for me to think about being pregnant. And I. I would not have admitted that to anybody at the time, but I really. I. It was not. I wasn't super keen on, like, sacrificing my body to have kids. And that's a hard thing when you're raised LDs and, you know, they're telling you, like, this is your purpose, and, like, this is holy and sacred, and this is what you do. And, you know, I've sat in so many church lessons one day where they were saying, well, men have the priesthood, but women bear children, you know, so, like, this is my thing. But as we are moving toward adoption, I keep thinking, like, I don't know, I think I would actually rather have it this way. And I. I know I said that to Jeff, but I never would have said that to other people because I think I felt kind of guilty about not wanting to be pregnant. And so I. I don't have an infertility story where I'm just devastated. And I did in vitro four times, and I know that, that. That is valid and that's very sad, and. But that isn't my story. I felt like I almost was like, okay, well, maybe I don't have to dodge the bullet. Yeah. Like, maybe I don't have to be pregnant. So it was kind of fine for me. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:12:22] Was it hard for you, Jeff? I think there's a biological pass your DNA on kind of instinct, maybe.
Jeff Kindred [00:12:29] Yeah, I. I think. I don't think it was as hard for me. I mean, it was stressful. It was a stressful time for us in general, but I don't think I had this real sense of needing to, like, spread my seed or, like, Things like that. That wasn't. That wasn't something that was important to me, I don't think. Or, like, pass on. My pass on.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:49] It's part in the interview where John projects.
Larissa Kindred [00:12:54] Does Johnny deal? A little bit. He's like, oh, no, no, no.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:00] I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:13:06] All right, sorry.
Jeff Kindred [00:13:07] So continue. So, yes, so we went through the adoption process in Michigan, and I don't know how far we want to go into that. We went into.
John Dehlin [00:13:17] I mean, Harvard touched your faith story or not?
Jeff Kindred [00:13:20] Yeah. What do you think?
Larissa Kindred [00:13:21] Yeah, I don't think this was a. I mean. Yeah, so we moved to Michigan. We were in Missouri two years, and then we moved to Michigan, and we just. So then we start doing our paperwork. So as soon as we're there. And it's just a lot. It's like background checks and you're writing, like, essay type.
Jeff Kindred [00:13:38] Your parenting style questions.
Larissa Kindred [00:13:39] Yeah. They want to know your parenting style. And you're like, obviously, it's like, the best kind of parenting style there is. Like, we have two little dogs at the time we don't even have. So I'm like, clearly, I have a really good parenting style. So. Yeah, but I mean, it's just. It's so. It's so rigorous. So, yeah, so we are. We're going through LDS services. So at the time, we're in Michigan, and we're close to Detroit. And the caseworker or the director of LDS services in Michigan, she had really established, like, a good relationship with some of the hospitals in the area and in Detroit. And so when we were meeting with her, she said to us, like, there are black children that. That need to be placed for adoption. You know, be real about it and think about it. Is that something you feel that you can take on? Because it's okay if you can't. You know, like, if you feel like that's not something that you can manage, then don't manage it. And I think. I think that is very helpful to know because it's not right for everybody. But I think that with me growing up in a. In a biracial home, and I felt like I was, you know, like, very open to talking about and addressing race. And so we really felt like that would be fine for us and that we could take that on. So that's what we told him.
Jeff Kindred [00:15:09] And we ended up with. So we have three adopted kids. All our oldest, Beck is a quarter African American, and then hazel is 3/4, and golden is half. And Beck looks. Beck's very light, and Hazel's very dark. And Then golden, is he looks like a.
Larissa Kindred [00:15:32] Like a biracial kid.
Jeff Kindred [00:15:33] Yeah, he looks biracial.
John Dehlin [00:15:34] And I guess two things come to mind. One, Larissa, is that, you know, you're biracial. I guess we're all multiracial, so that's such a dumb thing. But. Yeah, yeah, you're biracial. That's interesting. But then also there's the having black children in a church that has a long history of racism.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:51] Right.
John Dehlin [00:15:52] You want to share about your thoughts as you're considering as orthodox Mormons adopting black kids.
Larissa Kindred [00:15:59] So I don't think we considered anything that had to do with the church going into it, which maybe was naive of us. I mean, I think that we've learned a lot about what it's like raising black kids. You know, I mean, you'd be raising
John Dehlin [00:16:13] black kids in a white, super white church.
Jeff Kindred [00:16:15] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:16:15] Yeah. I don't think so. And I think at that point, we were very much like, raise the kids in the gospel and, like, teach them the right things, and that's the most important thing, and that will take care of everything. So I don't think going into that, we had any awareness of how this would affect them or what their experience would be in the church. So. Yeah. So our first son, we adopted our son when we lived in Michigan. His birth father is half black, but he looks white. So. So we got him. And then we got our daughter when we lived. When Jeff was in his residency, and that's when we lived in Indiana. So when we got our daughter, when I found out that she was going to be a girl, you know, we. So we have open relationships with our kids, birth moms.
John Dehlin [00:17:15] And so that's so valuable. I mean, I. Yeah, in my studies, that used to be discouraged.
Larissa Kindred [00:17:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:17:23] It is now kind of the trend to. And explain what an open adoption is for those who don't.
Larissa Kindred [00:17:27] So an open adoption just means that we have, like, a relationship with our. With our kids, birth moms.
Jeff Kindred [00:17:35] And we. We were with them. You know, they. Well, they. They selected us, and. And so we got to know them during their pregnancy. Larissa was at the birth of our daughter, Hazel. We were both at the birth of our son, golden, and our birth mom, Tiffany, had wanted to have the birth her thing, which we were still.
Larissa Kindred [00:17:57] So, yeah, we weren't there when our oldest son was born.
Jeff Kindred [00:18:00] And we keep in good contact with all of them and have excellent relationships, and they have good relationships with all of our kids, really, Even though they're all birth moms of one of them. But it's Kind of a. Kind of a big extended family, which is really nice, and it's been a really important thing for us.
John Dehlin [00:18:19] Were they all living locally, all the birth moms in Michigan, or.
Larissa Kindred [00:18:22] No. So our son we adopted, he's from southern Utah, and so he was actually born in St. George. So we flew out to pick him up when he was born. And then our daughter Hazel, her birth mom, actually grew up in Missouri. And then. But she. She had been accepted to byu and I think she was going to run track at byu. Yeah, she was a high jumper. And so she was accepted at BYU and knew she was pregnant her senior year and didn't. Didn't tell parents. And then she was like, going to move out to BYU and she went and lived with her sister. And then she told her sister, like, hey, I'm pregnant. So she didn't ever go to byu. And then while she was there, they called her parents and they were like, she's. She's pregnant. So. So those two are both born in Utah. And then. And then our youngest son, he's our Tennessee baby. So he was born in Tennessee. His birth mom is actually from Utah as well. So all of our birth moms live in Utah now. They all kind of like, that's where their roots are. So, yeah, so they're all out here now. But yeah. So we. We hadn't thought about this a lot, but when we were doing our. Our first adoption, you know, we were just having conversations with Beck's birth mom about, like, do you want to have an open relationship? And I don't know. I don't know why. We just felt like we wanted to be really open. But we. I think maybe we had read things, but I had felt like, no, I want these kids to be connected with, you know, like, their identity and where they come from. And I don't want these women to feel like this was a loss or something was taken from them. I want them to be part of our life. And so we're on the extreme end of open adoption. You'd probably be hard pressed to find people who are. Who have a more open adoption than us. It's really. It's very open, but it's.
Jeff Kindred [00:20:21] But it's still a tricky situation. And adoption itself, I mean, is a very, very difficult thing. I mean, these, these girls and, and. And this is. I mean, probably another whole other show of, like, you know what I think the church is. Is pushing or pressuring them to give up these babies. And you know that. That gets really sticky sometimes as well. And And. And birth parent. I mean, adoptive parents, and. And. And these babies. And. And sometimes there's promises that are broken and promises not met and that. So I think that's a whole other issue. But we. Our adoptions have been very positive, and I think we have good relationships with all of them.
Larissa Kindred [00:21:10] Yeah. When our daughter was born, she's our second child, her birth mom was meeting with LDS Services and had a caseworker that was working with her. And. Excuse me. After the. After. After Hazel was born, the caseworker was talking to us, and she was like, hey, make a plan for when you're gonna see when you're gonna come back and visit the birth mom with the baby. And we were kind of like, oh, yeah, no, we're. We're close. Like, we're close with her, and we've already developed this relationship and it's fine. And she said, no, we have an issue with adoptive couples courting a birth moment. And. And, like, kind of like, you know, please choose us. And, like, we're good. And then once the baby comes, it's like, see, you know, see you later. And so they. They said that they had seen this, and it was fairly frequent. And, you know, whatever. These, you know, these case workers, they get very attached to these birth moms and see what they go through. And so I think that they were really trying to help us to understand that, like, you can't just take the baby and run. Like, this is. This is very traumatic for these girls.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:20] So.
John Dehlin [00:22:22] Okay, well, that's an investment because, you know, it's tough enough to be a parent now. You've gotta worry about, you know, you've gotta make sure you tend to the needs of, what, three different birth moms? That's.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:22:34] And you're in med school.
Jeff Kindred [00:22:35] And extend. And they're extended family sometimes, too.
Larissa Kindred [00:22:41] We have a. Yeah, we have a. We have a colorful family. And people.
John Dehlin [00:22:45] Literally.
Larissa Kindred [00:22:45] People. Yeah, people. Yeah, literally and figuratively. And people that maybe we wouldn't even normally have interacted with. And so it's actually really nice because these are just the people in our life.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:57] So.
John Dehlin [00:22:58] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:58] So. Yeah.
Raising Adopted Children and Faith Questions
John Dehlin [00:22:59] Okay. All right. So how does your Mormon story continue? You got your three kids. It's. It's not quite four, you know.
Larissa Kindred [00:23:06] Yeah, that would have been ideal.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:07] Right?
Larissa Kindred [00:23:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:23:08] Three is, you know, almost.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:10] There's always the optimization.
John Dehlin [00:23:14] So you get. You get your kids and you raise them.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:17] I have a quick question for you. How was the journey for you of becoming a mom? Did it feel like something that was intuitive? Did it feel like Something where, wow, there was a learning curve. Did it feel like a.
Larissa Kindred [00:23:36] How was it for you? Okay. I had a very. I would say a very poor transition into motherhood. And so, yeah, it was very jarring. And I think that part of it is that I'm not going through the experience of, like, being pregnant and preparing and, you know, kind of nesting or I don't have this, like, physical connection with becoming a mother. And in one way, it's nice. Cause I think Jeff and I really walked into parenthood as equals. We just were like, this is like, we don't know. And we've had the same experiences. And, you know, sometimes as a woman, you might be like, no, I carried the baby and I started to really feel this maternal sense. And. But I also don't. I don't know if my personality. I mean, I think part of it is my personality too, is it just was so hard. And I. So babies are really, really stressful for me. So I've never been a baby person. And so it was just so hard. And I think adoption adds another element to it because I think I probably had some level of, like, postpartum depression. Even though it wasn't hormones, it wasn't body, it's just the shock and you feel this overwhelming sense of like, I can never take this back. Like, I. Once you become a mom, you're always gonna be a mom. And there was like a real heaviness to that for me. And I'm not good with new babies. And so I got really, really bad anxiety when I think with all of our kids, when they were babies, to the point where I start almost getting really like, this is. This is never going to end. And you know, like, the. I'm never going to get a good night's sleep again. So Jeff actually got up all the time at night with our babies, which is nice. You know, they're bottle fed. So Jeff got up with our new babies all the time. Because I think you did better. It just wasn't this, like, pressing anxiety. But I think the part that adoption adds to that is that you feel this huge amount of guilt because, you know, on three separate occasions we've done an adoption placement, and that's when the birth mom hands over the baby to you. And these are really special experiences, but they're also, like, heart wrenching to have this girl, like, give you her baby. I mean, and so, you know, I'm at home and I've got this baby and I'm just like, I don't know if I'm good at this, and I don't even know if I like this. And did I want to have a baby? And I feel horrible guilt because I'm like, well, she would have. She would love to have her baby back, you know, like, she didn't. She doesn't get to do this. And so it makes me feel just so guilty for even feeling like I don't like this baby phase. And so. So, yeah, new. New motherhood was. Was really challenging for me.
Margi Dehlin [00:26:33] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:26:34] And I don't know that I really settled into, like, feeling comfortable until maybe my kids were into, like, the four or five age range. And I. I do think that I. I do think I like kids, and I love to connect, but I. There are some things that are maybe associated with, like, maternal motherhood that I don't feel like I connect with very well. I don't love just, like, sitting and rocking a baby. And so. Yeah, so. So it was. I feel like jarring is the best word. It just was so sudden and kind of like, sh. Like get into that phase.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:07] Yes. Hear that?
John Dehlin [00:27:10] Yeah. That idea of postpartum depression as an adoptive mom, that's fascinating. I'd never.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:16] But it makes sense. I hadn't contemplated it.
Larissa Kindred [00:27:19] I mean, if you. If you have. If you've had. If you've got hormones going and then you've got. I mean, I would assume that there's a lot more elements to that if you've actually gone through birth physically. But I. Yeah, I think that it's good for adoptive parents to know, like, that you might have some of these feelings, too, because some of it is just about the experience, even without the hormones involved.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:41] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:27:42] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:27:43] So I'm so glad you talked about that.
John Dehlin [00:27:45] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:27:45] Oh, thank you.
John Dehlin [00:27:47] Yeah, absolutely. So you're. You're home with three kids, and you're still in med school. This is where gender roles really start to settle in.
Jeff Kindred [00:27:57] So we're.
John Dehlin [00:27:57] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:27:58] So, yeah, so we had been finished medical school, and then I had started residency in South Bend at the hospital there. And residency is really taxing. I mean, it's hours of schedule, is never the same month to month, and some, you know, on lots of rotations. I'll be spending it once every three nights in the hospital on call. And so that was a difficult. I think that was a difficult three years to go through. And Larissa. Yeah. Is in charge of the kids. And again, we never had this conversation, but it's just expected of her that she's gonna, you know, take care of all of the things at home. And including, like most of the cleaning and, you know, all these things that we never discuss so.
Margi Dehlin [00:28:46] So much, isn't it?
Larissa Kindred [00:28:47] It's a lot. Yeah. And I. And I don't think that, like, when I think about who we were in the church and how this affected us, I know that gender roles or patriarchal systems, those aren't exclusive to the church.
John Dehlin [00:29:00] Not at all.
Larissa Kindred [00:29:00] I think that. I think that they became very toxic in our relationship. And I think they came. It came from three areas. I think it came from society, and then it came from the church because it was heavily reinforced in the church and institutionalized in the church. And then I feel like it came from Jeff's job because he had a high demand job. And it just. I just had to revolve around, like, what he was doing. So. Yeah. So I feel like during these years, like the medical school and the residency years, we were kind of just in the trenches. And I had a toddler and I had a baby at. We don't get our youngest son till later. And Jeff's just doing his thing. And so we were just kind of like, in it, surviving.
John Dehlin [00:29:42] And isn't residency like 80 hours a week?
Jeff Kindred [00:29:44] Yes, certain rotations certainly are. Yes. They're trying to crack down on that and make it better. And they have done some things, but it is taxing. And maybe the most difficult thing is that it's different month to month. So you can never get in a pattern of. I mean, it's an unhealthy way to live because you're working nights sometimes and then you're working days sometimes. And then you're not eating well and you're not exercising regularly. You can't get in any habits because they're just. Every month it switches your time when you're at work and when you're not at work. And that was taxing. I think the resentment at this time was building even though we didn't know to name it. I mean, in our marriage, I feel like we had a good marriage, but definitely on the inside of Larissa, there's this resentment that's kind of building up year after year. And we hadn't identified what that was or why it was happening. Would you agree with that?
Larissa Kindred [00:30:42] Yeah. And while we lived in Indiana, I was the young women's president the whole time. And so, like, Jeff can't help me with the kids. Cause he's gone. And so I'm like lugging my kids to young women's activities. And the youth programs of the church have so many things, you know, they have like standards night and then they have, you know, like their youth council and I don't know, there was like so many things, so I just like took the kids along with me and did the thing and. Yeah, and I don't think it was identified some of these issues during that time because we were just like deep in the trenches.
John Dehlin [00:31:16] Yeah, you're on the train, as I like to say.
Larissa Kindred [00:31:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:19] Really quickly you had mentioned you met Lee and Cody Young. Was that in Missouri or was that in Indiana?
Larissa Kindred [00:31:25] In Missouri.
John Dehlin [00:31:26] Okay.
Jeff Kindred [00:31:27] Yeah, we are the same. So he was a year ahead of me. So during his second year I was a first year and then they left for their third and fourth year and.
John Dehlin [00:31:36] Okay.
Jeff Kindred [00:31:37] And so we just.
John Dehlin [00:31:38] Do you have memories of Lee and Cody at all?
Jeff Kindred [00:31:40] We didn't know him that well. I mean, we interacted because we were members, but they were, since they were
Larissa Kindred [00:31:45] in another class, like another school class, you know, like another graduating class. They, yeah, we, they were in our ward and, and so, yeah, we remember them.
Jeff Kindred [00:31:53] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:54] Okay. Anything you remember about them or not? Not so much, no.
Jeff Kindred [00:31:57] I don't know if there's anything in particular, just that we know.
John Dehlin [00:31:59] And then you, you met Patrick Mason when you were.
Larissa Kindred [00:32:03] Yeah, so, yeah, so when we were in, so we were, we were in Indiana for Jeff's residency. Yeah. Patrick and Melissa had just moved back from Egypt and they were back in the war because they had been in at Notre Dame before and then they were back, so, so we knew them for a couple years.
Jeff Kindred [00:32:20] He was the elders quorum president. I was their home teacher for a while, which.
John Dehlin [00:32:24] Yeah. So you met Melissa too?
Jeff Kindred [00:32:26] Uh huh.
John Dehlin [00:32:26] Okay. Fun. I just met Melissa. So.
Larissa Kindred [00:32:29] Yeah, they're, they're fantastic. Yeah, yeah, no, they're fantastic.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:32:32] Okay. All right. So you're in South Bend and like, is this the point maybe to talk about what it's like as a white and a, and a Japanese American mom to be raising three biracial or black children in the Mormon Church?
Larissa Kindred [00:32:49] Yeah, I think so. So, so when we found out that, so when we found out that Hazel was coming and that she was going to be a girl, I, I really got into black hair, like black hair care. And I, I, I, I knew enough at this point that I, that I needed that. It was, it was cold. It's, it's not just hair. It's very cultural and I, I wanted to be a good mom of a black daughter. And so I was like, I, I need to make sure I know how to do her hair and I teach her to care for her hair. So I got way into black hair. Like, super, super into black hair. So at the time, there was a documentary that came out, and it's called Good Hair, and Chris Rock did it, and it's really good. And probably no one has seen it and no one cares about it.
John Dehlin [00:33:38] I'll put it in the show notes.
Jeff Kindred [00:33:39] Put it in the show notes.
John Dehlin [00:33:40] No, but white people are like, why are we talking about hair?
Larissa Kindred [00:33:43] No, it's so good. I think I went and saw it in the theaters, and I pretty sure I was on my own. I was just, like, sitting.
John Dehlin [00:33:48] It's called Good Hair.
Larissa Kindred [00:33:49] It's called Good Hair. It's about kind of, like, the cultural expectations surrounding black. Black hair and women's hair in particular. And it also is about the natural hair movement. So for many, like, power. Yeah. Many, many years, you know, like, black women had been trying to, you know, like, adhere to white beauty standards. So they're straightening your hair, straightening their hair, doing chemical relaxers, which, honestly is fine. It's. Except that it's sad that you feel like you can't have your natural hair. So anyway, so I got really into the natural, like, the black natural hair movement. So I saw this movie, and I just am like, I'm gonna be a good mom to a black daughter, and so I get way into her hair. So when my daughter comes, I'm like, sectioning her hair, and we have, like, wash day, and I'm like, she's sleeping in a bonnet. And I learned how to box braid, and I'm doing, like, two strand twists. And none of these words mean anyone to anyone, like, who's listening unless you're, like, a black person. So. So I just got way into black hair. So this was, like, my first kind of foray into understanding that, like, I need to. I need to know about this. I need to understand this if I'm going to help my daughter have a racial identity. And of course, I grew up feeling not connected to my racial identity. And so I feel like I really, really, like, yeah. Got. Got involved in, like, what will be her racial identity. So I get really into, so black hair thing, but I go full bore into. Into what. What I need to do so that I can raise black children and help them connect with their identity. And honestly, I think that one of the most important things I learned along my journey is that, is that I can never tell my kids what it's like to be black. And, And I think, and I, I, I try. I, like, think about this all the time. Is that, like, my kids are going to need to be connected with black people, with their community. And I have to understand that, like, I can't tell my daughter what it's like to be a black woman. Only she can. She's going to have to learn and understand what it's like to be a black woman. But what I can understand, I need to figure out, and I need to make sure that I share that. So I get really deep into, like, African American history, and so I'm just like, I want to know. I want to know the things. I want to understand who are the people. You know, I. For a while, I was, like, way into, like, how hip hop came about, which is really, really interesting in, like, late 70s, early 80s. So I just got way, way into my kids and their racial identity. And so in 2015 is when Trayvon Martin was killed. And I. It was. It was just devastating to me. And I don't think that I really understood racial profiling until Trayvon Martin was killed. So I was very, very affected by this more than, like, I had been about other, you know, like, other things that had happened like this. And it's because my daughter was just a few years old, and I kept thinking, like, that could have been my child. And, you know, like. And, you know, what. What does that mean? And so. So at that time, I also really got into understanding, like, what is the issue with police brutality? Why is this happening?
John Dehlin [00:37:14] Yeah. Sometimes kids are getting shot for just wearing a hoodie, walking through a white neighborhood.
Larissa Kindred [00:37:18] Right?
John Dehlin [00:37:18] Like, yeah, it's. You. You would have to think, as a white parent, this could happen to my kids. I'm white, but it could stop into my kids if they put on a hoodie and walk through the wrong neighborhood. Or drive. Drive while black, right?
Larissa Kindred [00:37:28] Yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:29] Or running with a hoodie.
Larissa Kindred [00:37:32] Yeah, absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:33] Why is this person running through our neighborhood?
Larissa Kindred [00:37:35] Let's get them. You know, and I think we. We kind of. I think that I was really, really into this. And I think we kind of. I kind of, like, tried to, like, bring Jeff into it with me, and you kind of had a different. Like, you just weren't as connected with it as I was. Would you say that's correct?
Jeff Kindred [00:37:54] Yeah, I think so. And it wasn't.
John Dehlin [00:37:59] I don't know.
Jeff Kindred [00:37:59] I think I was still in the mentality, again, that the church is going to. The church is the thing that's going to protect our kids. Or. I mean, and I realize how naive that is now, but in the time. I mean, that was the thinking was that the church, if we just teach correct principles, that's the thing that's going. Or, you know, teach the church principles, live the gospel, that's the thing that's going to protect our family, that's the thing that's going to change. And so I think that was my thinking, that I was not as concerned at that time. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:38:34] Okay. And also there's. There is a strong association with orthodox Mormonism and. And let's just say the Republican Party or conservative politics, which in the modern era, especially in the past five years, in my experience, tends to look down on the Black Lives Matter movement on progressive social issues. And so, I mean, if. I don't want to project this on you guys again, but if, If Larissa is becoming sensitive to black identity, police brutality, Black Lives Matter. And Jeff, you're staying kind of your priesthood conservative, privileged white guy in medical school or in medical residency. That might start to feel uncomfortable for you. Like, well, we're getting too woke here.
Larissa Kindred [00:39:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:39:20] Right.
Jeff Kindred [00:39:21] I'd say that's a good.
John Dehlin [00:39:22] Is that fair?
Jeff Kindred [00:39:23] I'd say that's a good summer.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:24] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:39:25] And I think Jeff was kind of like, I don't think that would happen to our kids. Right. Like, and. And I think I was in a different place where I was like, no, it can happen to anybody. And it does. And. But so, so, yeah, we were, we were in different places.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:39] I don't.
Larissa Kindred [00:39:39] You weren't. I don't think you weren't in any way insensitive to our kids racial identity. It was just that he was looking at it.
John Dehlin [00:39:46] Just. Just be Mormon in a different way.
Jeff Kindred [00:39:49] Yeah. Honestly, I mean, that. That is. That is sad. But I mean, I think I had. I think I had that mentality.
John Dehlin [00:39:55] That's fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:58] So.
Shelf Items, Priesthood Ban, and Growing Doubts
Larissa Kindred [00:39:59] So I think this is where I get my first shelf item because I. I'm trying to talk to our kids about like, this is, this is what happened. These are great, you know, black Americans. And so I'm really like, wanting to help them to understand, like, their history. And so we get to the point where I'm thinking I am going to have to explain the priesthood ban to our kids. So how do I frame this for them? And I don't. And I don't like it, you know, and so I don't even understand it. So I, I kind of did a very. I wouldn't call it a deep dive, but it was kind of a church approved dive into like, what has been said about this priesthood and temple ban. And so I got into it and you Know, there's so many different things narratives that are said like you know, people link it to the curse of Cain and then people say no, you know, it was just a timing thing. Like it just like with the Gentiles, it was just a timing thing or I don't know, like you hear different things. And so I kind of look less
John Dehlin [00:41:07] valiant in the pre existence.
Larissa Kindred [00:41:08] Yes. Yeah, yeah. The more the Bruce Armaconki like Mormon doctrine thing that they were kind of fence sitters in the pre existence or whatever. So there was all these different things and so I was kind of digging into them but from church, you know, with church approved resources. And in the end I was like, I think that it happened because of racism. Like that's just where I landed. Like, I was like, I was like, none of this makes sense to me. And so I think in the end these are all, these are all just excuses. And I, you know, the, the church came about in a time where this was not uncommon to believe. And so in the end that's just kind of what I settled on is I was like, I think that it came because of racist attitudes. And maybe that doesn't mean that, it doesn't mean the church isn't true. It just means that there were racist attitudes and they kind of came into, you know, how the church functioned. And and so yeah, that's kind of like what I settled on with that.
Jeff Kindred [00:42:12] And as you get those items, it's funny how you start to in your mind rearrange it. So it's like, yeah, well the church can still be true. It just is that, you know, they had racist leaders in the past. I mean you start to make these rationalizations and justifications and you know, to, to make things work.
John Dehlin [00:42:34] But that's a crack. Just the idea that the church should be full stop racist. Yeah, that's a crack.
Larissa Kindred [00:42:41] And we got. So I don't know how we became aware of Paul Reeves book. I haven't read Paul Reeves book, but
Jeff Kindred [00:42:48] it's through a podcast.
Larissa Kindred [00:42:50] Yeah, I feel like you had listened to it or something and sent it to me.
John Dehlin [00:42:54] So he's a University of Utah scholar who's kind of like the church. He wrote I think the first draft of the church's race in the priesthood essay, if I understand So I didn't know that. I think so I could be wrong. But he's. He's U of Utah professor, expert on racial relations churches in 2022. The church's go to guy for yeah. Scholarly approach to the priested band and,
Larissa Kindred [00:43:18] and in his book. I know his take was that the church kind of had latched on to whiteness because they were persecuted. You know, they were almost looked at as other because of, you know, they were. Their kids came from polygamous relationships, and so people kind of looked down on them, and so they kind of had this kind of, like, a search for whiteness so that they could be accepted, like, amongst American Christianity. But he. But I. So. And I don't. I don't know if I jive with that or not, but I do. But his. His take was that it was. Came about because of racist attitudes. And so I felt like that also kind of gave me, like, the space to sit. Yeah. To say, like, yeah, like, that makes sense. Like, what he's saying makes sense. What I understand about, you know, racial history, which at that point was getting to be a lot because I'd spent so much time, like, trying to understand, like, what's going on with, like, these, like, different racial communities. So. So, yeah, so I. I latched on to that, and I was like, you know what it was that. I feel like it's the simplest thing. Like, it was just racism, and it wasn't okay. And so that's kind of what I had settled on with that. And then. Yeah, but. But raising. Raising our kids, though, in the church. I mean, once you start. Once you. When you have black kids in the church, I think you just start to really identify. You know, we talked about how. How the church is culturally white, and that becomes very, very apparent when you're raising your black kids. And, you know, I want to have representation. I want them to see themselves. But, I mean, you've got, like, white Jesus and you've got, like, all the white leadership, and you've got, you know, like. And even the stories that they tell in general conference. It's like, I grew up in Idaho, and I was with my dad, and we were collecting fast offerings with a red wagon. Like, I'm just like, this is. This is, like, this is a certain experience, and it's nice and it's fine, but I really started to feel like, gosh, I don't know. I don't know that this is something that we are relating to very well. And, oh, I had this experience a couple of years ago because when we were, like, still watching conference, and One of the 70 gave a talk, and he was talking about how he got to go golfing at St. Andrews, and I was so mad. Do you remember? I was just so mad. I was like, this is the most white privilege story I have ever heard. Like, you went golfing at St. Andrews in Scotland, like, And he was telling about how this was such a special experience. And I was like, I hate this story. I hate it so bad. Just because this is so. I mean, it's privileged on a few different levels, but I was just like, oh, I don't know. These are not the stories that I'm relating to. I don't think these are stories that are gonna connect with my kids. You know, it's just. So. It just starts to become a thing where I start to worry about what will be their experience in the church. And because we wanted to be like that, that Mormon family, we are kind of gearing our kids to go to byu, and we don't live around a ton of members in the south. And so we are kind of grooming our kids to go to byu. But I start thinking, like, what will that experience be like? And will people want to date my black daughter? And is. Is that going to be okay? Are we going to have families that get. Get weird about it? I don't know. And so, yeah, these are all things that start to be a little concerning for me.
John Dehlin [00:46:54] Yeah. And I. Just a side note, something I hadn't thought about until recently. Yes. You know, a Brazilian black man got the priesthood. Helvecchio Martins or whatever his name was. And then recently, they've had several area authorities from Africa. My understanding is, as of 2022, there's still never been an African American that's made, you know, area authority or general authority. So there's. It's like, it's okay to. It's okay to bring Africans on if they stay in the third and fourth and fifth and sixth and seventh quorums of the 70 in those area presidencies. But African Americans are still not really welcome at the table.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:47:38] You know, in the first and second quorums of the 70 or anywhere, as I understand it. Does that sound right?
Larissa Kindred [00:47:44] Yeah, I think so.
John Dehlin [00:47:45] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:47:46] Yeah, that does sound right.
John Dehlin [00:47:47] And that may just be the demographics we're pulling from, but it's not insignificant, especially if you're raising.
Larissa Kindred [00:47:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:47:53] You know, kids in. In. In the US they did have the
Jeff Kindred [00:47:57] first African American woman speak at conference, I heard.
John Dehlin [00:48:00] Yeah. In 2022.
Larissa Kindred [00:48:01] 2022.
John Dehlin [00:48:03] I mean, the. The implication is that that took a long time, right?
Margi Dehlin [00:48:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:07] Yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:09] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:48:09] Yeah. And I can just say, like, starting to develop sympathy for racial diversity and police brutality and acknowledging that the church is racist and then starting to even think about privilege is not good for A testimony. A Mormon testimony.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:27] In my experience.
Larissa Kindred [00:48:28] Yeah. It's a real struggle. And then, you know, I don't know what year it was that the church did their B1 event.
John Dehlin [00:48:34] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:48:34] Do you remember? It was. It was a big.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:36] To do.
John Dehlin [00:48:37] This is. This was, like, you know, forever. For 20, 30 years, we've all been waiting for the church to apologize for the.
Larissa Kindred [00:48:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:44] The priesthood and temple. Black people. It's never come. But this was like. You know, Dave. And Dave B. Singer, who was on Mormon Stories. He's a friend of ours. He helped plan the B1 event. But it was supposed to be, like, this extravaganza gala. And downtown Salt Lake of like. Like, we love black people. Let's talk about the black pioneers. Let's.
Larissa Kindred [00:49:05] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:49:05] Let's have, you know, black people sing in gospel choirs. And without falling short of an apology.
Larissa Kindred [00:49:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:13] Let's just let the world know that we actually love black people now.
Margi Dehlin [00:49:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:17] Right.
Larissa Kindred [00:49:17] And we. We watched it on tv. And I. I mean, I was crying during most of it because. Because I just. I was so happy. I mean, at that point, we're still there. We're still in the church. So I'm just feeling like finally, like, the church is gonna, like, talk about. They're gonna tell black stories. They're gonna, like. And we watch it with our kids. And I'm just so. I'm so emotional. And we're seeing, like, the Bonner family singing, and I'm like, yes, these are the hymns we should be singing. Cause it's like they're singing it. It's just like. I don't know. I'm not, like, a huge lover of church music, so I was just like. And Gladys Knight is there. So I was like, this is the blackest thing the church has ever done, and I'm here for it. So I was, like, loving it and loving that our kids could see it. They're talking about the people in, like, Haiti that were, like, running their wards, you know, like, on their own. And then the church comes, and they're like, we were already doing this thing, or. I don't know. It was just. It was so good. But the thing that was so frustrating is that then I'm, like, talking to all the people in our ward, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Did you watch the B1 event? And literally nobody even knew what it was. Like, no one cared. Like, our friends didn't know. I was like, no, you need to watch it. You can watch it on YouTube now. And they're just like, yeah, it sounds really good. Nobody watched it. No one cared. And so I was just like, why does no one care about this? Like, why is this not. Why is this not a thing? Like, why are we not so concerned about this? And that also makes you kind of feel a little bit lonely in the church is like, this is such a big deal to me. This is my kids. This is their community, this is their people. Why aren't we human?
John Dehlin [00:50:56] It's a human thing. But like, if you don't have a gay kid, you don't really care about the LGBTQ issues until someone you really care about, if you don't have a black kid, why would you really care about.
Jeff Kindred [00:51:06] I think you're right.
John Dehlin [00:51:06] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:51:07] Until. Until it becomes personal. It is really hard to. Especially when you think that you have the truth, the fullness of the truth. Right. I mean, until you have. Until it becomes real to you, it's really easy to not be concerned about those things. I agree.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:23] Yeah, I think too, it may. I don't know. I have to think it makes a difference when you have such a. For white people, such a self referential narrative that is actually reinforced in school. And so you just have this really self involved way of. Of looking at the world.
Larissa Kindred [00:51:46] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:46] You know?
Larissa Kindred [00:51:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it really. It really makes it so that it feels like your narrative is the universal narrative and that. And it makes it seem like the black narrative or the Asian narrative or the Hispanic or the gay. Like, all of those are niche. Right. Because you kind of view yours as like, no, this is kind of like the regular thing. And these ones are all kind of like little.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:08] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:08] Little side things. So. So yeah, I think that for me, it started to make me feel very much like maybe this is not exactly the community where I'm. Where I'm connecting.
Jeff Kindred [00:52:22] But we were still doing all the things. I mean, we were reading our scriptures every night and we were doing. I mean, we were doing all the things at this point still.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:32] Okay. All right, so what happens next in your Mormon journey?
Larissa Kindred [00:52:37] So, yeah, so we're just kind of like deep in it. So once. Once we moved to. So after Jeff is done with his residency, he gets a job out just outside of Nashville. So we move there. And I think we just really settled into, you know, Jeff's in his job and I'm doing the thing with the kids and Jeff gets called into the bishopric. So Jeff served in one bishopric and then he. That one, you know, that bishop was released and then he was called to the next bishopric. So Jeff Was serving in a bishopric for about seven years straight.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:13] Wow.
Larissa Kindred [00:53:14] Yeah. And so I'm.
John Dehlin [00:53:16] How was that for you, Jeff? I mean, it's hard enough to be in medical school and then a doctor, you've got young kids, and now you're in a bishopric for seven years, which means you're not sitting with your wife and kids for seven years.
Jeff Kindred [00:53:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:53:31] They're sitting alone while you are up on the stand.
Jeff Kindred [00:53:33] Right.
John Dehlin [00:53:34] And all the meetings.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:35] All the meetings, yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:53:38] You'd leave it like, I'll leave early 6 in the morning, and then they had to, like, count tithing after.
John Dehlin [00:53:43] And so how was that for you, Jeff?
Jeff Kindred [00:53:46] Yeah, it was. It was exhausting. I mean, my Sundays were like another work day. But the other thing that it was doing was it was, I mean, just taxing Larissa to no end. Right. I mean, she's getting all the kids ready for church, having to, like, sit with them at church. So in a way, it's a little bit easier because I feel like this is the most important thing I can be doing. And so I get to go, you know, I'm going to meetings. And even though that's not that. I mean, it's oftentimes boring or not that great, it still is excusing me with a valid excuse to not have to do a lot of the parenting. I mean, I really think that's a part of that. I think this is something, again, in the church that we don't talk about, is that men get an excuse, like a past, to not have to do the things at home because they're doing something more important. Right. If you're. I mean, you're called to these callings. And sometimes in these callings, we're getting a lot of validation, and we're getting a lot of people that are, like, looking up to you as, like, answering their questions or thinking that you're getting revelation from God for, you know, these. For their calling. And so you get a little bit of. You feel a little important, and you feel. Again, I think it just comes back to validation that I think a lot of men aren't getting at home, maybe. And so it becomes a little bit. I really think that a lot of callings become easier to be at church doing the callings than it is to be at home. I think.
John Dehlin [00:55:12] Would you rather deal with screaming babies, changing diapers, or go make big decisions at the head of your congregation?
Jeff Kindred [00:55:17] Yeah. And you think it's more important. Right. This is more important than doing that. Those menial tasks at home. Like, I'll just let Let my wife take care of those. And that's not a conscious thing, but it's certainly a subconscious thing. I think that is a real. A real thing.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:55:34] Yeah. Okay, so. So is a wedge developing between you two as. As you get more and more churchy in the bishoprics and.
Larissa Kindred [00:55:43] And are you.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:44] Do you sense in your lives a little bit? Like the roles are creating kind of a parallel lives dynamic where, you know, you're in different worlds kind of. Or were you still connecting?
Jeff Kindred [00:55:59] I think we were still connecting, but I think we were not recognizing that there was. That there was some division or maybe some paralleling. Yeah. Going on. I still feel like we had a fairly good relationship. But it was funny because we would. I mean, I. How would you describe it? I mean, the resentment was definitely there.
Larissa Kindred [00:56:23] Yeah, I. I think it was building. I think, like, Jeff and I had always. Since we moved away from family, when we were in our early in our marriage, I think we had always really gotten involved with our wards and kind of like, adopted them as our family. And we had always been, you know, found people that we were close to in our wards. And so I think since we were kind of away, we always kind of had a fairly good thing going because we were really relying on each other. But I definitely think that once you got settled into your job and you were just busy and there was the stress of, like, building a practice, I think that this is when I started to feel very much lost, like I didn't have something or that I needed something. And I always get into, like, little side businesses or, like, different things. And I. I think that I've been kind of chasing my whole life trying to find, like, what can I build that's special or that's me or that's unique to me? And so I think that I was always looking for something that I could do and not ever really feeling like I had the space to do it. And so I think I was definitely starting to kind of chafe under that. And even though I think we. I think we were happy and had a good life together, but we, like, we would have fights and things would
Jeff Kindred [00:57:42] come out, I think that's when they would really start to come out, is things kind of boil over and then you'd see the resentment and then it would settle back down for a period and then.
Larissa Kindred [00:57:55] But I don't think we had really identified. You know, it took me a long time to identify, like, oh, I think I'm resentful. Like, for me even to say, like, I think that's What I'm experiencing, resentful
John Dehlin [00:58:07] of what if you had to put words to that resentment, what was the resentment of?
Larissa Kindred [00:58:10] My life revolving around Jeff's life, honestly. And so.
Jeff Kindred [00:58:15] And again, I think this goes back to when we got married, never having a conversation of what does our life look like? You know, it was always like, my, we're gonna go to medical school. For me, this was my dream. This was what I was going to do. And Larissa, I mean, it's not like she was putting up a fight against it. It's just like, this was the. Understood. We never had an agreement plan. That was it. It just. And I think that was a big. A big, big problem, and I think a common problem again in the church because of the messaging they give.
Larissa Kindred [00:58:46] And I think I spent. Once we kind of identified it, I was mad at you for a long time. And I think I had to get to a place where I understand. Where I understood my complicity in this, because I also accepted this or, you know, like, I allowed this, and this is what I was getting from it. And so that's kind of. That's where we're gonna.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:05] That's.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:05] We're gonna end up at that place. It took us a long time to get to that place.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:10] But.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:11] But, yeah, it was all. I think it was all building at this time, even though, you know, in general, I think we were happy and had a good relationship.
John Dehlin [00:59:19] But, yeah, Margi, I just remember.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:23] Just realizing. And Margi, I think it was. There were a lot of things that were emotionally hard for you, but I just remember, just, like, these late nights at work where Margi calls in, and there's just. Just all sorts of really hard things are happening at home. I just remember thinking, I got the easier job, for sure.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:41] You know, how was that? Did you. Do you relate to that?
Margi Dehlin [00:59:46] Yeah. And. And also to this idea of having, like, a yearning for a space, for some place for me to sort of be able to thrive independently of this role that involved so much of me, so much of my time that, you know, it felt like. Yeah, it was a. I definitely. And I relate to the sort of. Accommodate. Accommodate. Accommodate. Blow. Yeah. Would blow. And then. And then you're back to, like, it's reality, and so much is required that you can't help but, like, there's not enough time to, like, reflect or think. Let's pull our resources. What do we want to do? Nope, it's just sort of like the next morning, you've got, you know, three kids to get ready and a Full day and you've got, you know. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:00:37] And I, I think along with that too is I, you know, I, I don't, I don't know that I was meant to be a stay at home mom. So I'm, you know, I'm at home and I have all the time in the world, but I just can't keep the house clean because it makes me feel miserable that that's my only role. And, and it's interesting because I'm in, I, I go back to school eventually. So I, I'm in school right now and I almost feel like now I have something that I feel like is very valuable to me. So then when I need to like, take a break and clean something, it doesn't feel so terrible. But when that was the only thing that I was doing, it just felt soul crushing because it was like, this is it. Like, is this all that I have? Is this my whole life? And obviously I know that like, parenting isn't just cleaning your house. And I really value like connecting with my kids and teaching my kids and talking to them about the things that are important to me. But so much of like the stay at home life was just really, really suffocating for me. And I think that I couldn't even like, motivate myself to like, be a really good housekeeper or, you know, like to do these certain things. And then I felt like I was just trash at it. And so I, you know, like, I had several meltdowns that were not even directed at you, but you remember, And I was just like, why am I so bad at everything that I have to do? I feel like everything that I'm told to do, everything that is supposed to be the most important thing, I feel like I'm so bad at it. Why am I so bad at everything? And of course, I think it's because what, something's wrong with me, you know, like, I'm not good at this. And I've been geared my whole life that this is the most important thing and you need to be at home. And, and I'm just feeling completely suffocated by it. So it's just. Yeah, it got to be a real.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:26] That's so powerful. It got to be so, so damaging. And on a level, you feel it. What I hear kind of in that is you were like betraying parts of yourself that like really needed in the stay home default kind of thing. You were literally not able to honor yourself. Yeah. And that's why all of that was true. And it's different if you Give yourself up a space of honoring, going back
Larissa Kindred [01:02:54] to school or whatever.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:56] Then you can come back to this home space. Because it's not defining you.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:02] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:02] You know what I mean?
Larissa Kindred [01:03:03] Yes. That's why it was so, so suffocating is because I feel like that's all I had to define me.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:08] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:09] And I think it's hard to, you know, when we talk about how the church plays into this is, you know, like we came from this place where we were like, no, we're going to be those people, you know, like, we have to be these people. So I feel like I was just busting my butt to be palatable for the church and to like, you know, if I'm having issues with race, don't bring it up in Sunday school because then everyone will think you're that person and quit making it about race. And she's so liberal. So I was very. I was also being very careful during this time to make sure that I was still. I'm not gonna like, be some like, rabble rouser at church. Like I. We still need to be the people. And we were really those people in the church. We were like a ma and PA on trek twice where we would like, you know, like you were over the group of kids and then we would have like our little pioneer kids come to our house like later and we'd have like a family reunion. And we were like, we were just. Were so involved. We were doing all the things in church and I think and some of it we loved doing because we always like working with the teenagers. But some of it, I feel like I was going along and doing this because I was still trying to be palatable and acceptable. And what you're saying, Margi, about like that it's a self betrayal and, and I. And I don't realize this until like, you know, like years down the road where I'm like, I'm like every time I do this and I keep my mouth shut, I'm actually like being inauthentic in this space. That's what this space has become for me.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:41] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:04:42] And would that lead us to jff, do you think?
Larissa Kindred [01:04:46] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:04:47] Jennifer Finlayson Fife.
Larissa Kindred [01:04:48] Jennifer Finlayson Fife. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:04:51] I'd say she was a big catalyst in us starting to discover some of these issues in our marriage.
Larissa Kindred [01:04:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:05:00] I mean, we've had our Mormon stories very early on, but do you want to tell our listeners who she is and how you heard about her?
Jeff Kindred [01:05:07] Yeah, go ahead. You, you, you.
Larissa Kindred [01:05:08] I think I got, Yeah, I got really into her. So She's a. She's a PhD. She's a LDS sex therapist, and she is still active, so she's, like, believing active. But her content is so good. I'd recommend it to anybody. It's just good. She teaches good mental health principles. She teaches about embracing sexuality. I feel like it was through her that I learned a lot about, you know, gender roles and patriarchal systems and how they harm intimacy. And so I. Differentiation. Differentiation, which was something that was definitely lacking in our relationship. And so. So, yeah, so I kind of had always been, like, a little bit of a budding feminist, but I kind of, like, got on the fast track, I think, after a certain point. And, yeah, Jennifer Finlayson Fife was a big part of that for me. And, yeah, and then I also. I listened to. So Julie Hanks is another LDS therapist that I was into, and then Kristen Hodgson is a sex therapist, and they all put out great content. And. And so, yeah, I just got really into progressive.
John Dehlin [01:06:17] Progressive Mormon women therapists.
Larissa Kindred [01:06:20] Yes, yes. And at one point, I remember saying to Jeff, I was like, I've learned more in these podcasts than I've ever learned in general conference. Like, this is what I need to be knowing. Like, no one has ever talked to me about this, and these are really, really important topics. No one. Why are we not talking about this? Like, this is what Relief Society should be about. Like, why are we not sharing and being vulnerable and talking about, like, systems of oppression? And so anyways, yeah, so I get into them, and so I kind of, like, take a turn and become sort of a progressive Mormon feminist, I guess, like, at this. At this juncture. So, yeah, I start really, like, digging into women's issues. And then so there's two books that I read that were all really influential to me at the time. So Wendy. Wendy Ulrich, you know who that is, she wrote a book that I read, and I was just really feeling it because her. She kind of had, like, a take on women and the priesthood. So she felt that. That women did have priesthood power and that they were. You know, there were ways that we. We actually are using priesthood power. And she talked, like, in her book, she talked about how in the early church, women were giving blessings and, you know, setting apart women and how they would, like, do, like, kind of washings and anointings before a woman gave birth. So I was just like. So I was so into this because I was like, yes, like, this is it. Like, there. There has to be this. And during this time, too, I think, is when I started IDing the issues with the temple, you know, because it wasn't, you know, like, while we were going to the temple consistently, it was still that, like, you know, like, I was covenanting to Jeff, and then Jeff would covenant to God. You know, the women were still veiling their faces. And so I start to ID things like this. And so I'm just eating up these, like, kind of these, like, feminist Mormon takes.
John Dehlin [01:08:15] That was a huge mind opener for me when I heard about the Dialogue article, I think, called A gift given, a gift taken away. When I learned that in the 1800s and early 1900s, like you say, women are not only giving blessings with oil for healing. Healing blessings with oil, priesthood blessings.
Larissa Kindred [01:08:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:08:36] They're doing washings and anointings outside the temple in preparation for childbirth as a sacred religious ritual. And then you learned it was taken away, like, what the heck? We got worse. We got worse. And no one told me. That was outrageous, right?
Margi Dehlin [01:08:52] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:08:53] And she has this hot take that I love where she. In her book, she talks about how, you know, being born in the covenant. You know, like, when you're born into the. If you have LDS parents that. That are sealed and then you're born, you're automatically sealed to them. So, you know, like, our kids are adopted, so we took them to the temple later and had. And they were sealed to us. So our kids weren't born in the covenant. So if you're born to LDS parents, you are automatically. You automatically have an ordinance done. And her thing was. Was that a w. Like, if a woman is, like, kind of, like, administering an ordinance through her body, like, through birth. So even though I haven't given birth, I'm just totally feeling this. I was like, yes, women are, like, administering an ordinance. Like, they're doing this. And I just. I feel like this is what I needed. I needed to feel like, no, this is. This is what needs to happen, and we need to bring this back in the church, you know, Like, I just. So I kind of, like, moved into the space where I was like, we have to. We have to make it better. And it used to be more this way. And so, like, that means that it could come back. And so women, like, we need to understand our priesthood power and how we use it, and the church needs to, like, get right with it and, like, start ordaining women.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:11] So.
Larissa Kindred [01:10:13] Yeah, so Wendy Ulrich's one, and then Barbara Morgan Gardner is the other one. She has a book called Women in the Priesthood that I read, and it's also really good. And it's about how it's about how she thinks the kind of. Like the eternal order of priesthood is familial, so it's men and women presiding together. And that's what, like, the eternal priesthood is. And she would say, like, the hierarchical priesthood that exists on the earth is not going to be. It's not going to be a thing in heaven. So she, like, really made a case for, like, men and women preside together, and that's the eternal way, which isn't
John Dehlin [01:10:48] what the proclamation of the family says.
Larissa Kindred [01:10:50] It isn't. But you know what's funny is just in this past conference, Elder Suarez gave a talk, and I. I think that it was just. It's. I. I think this is hers. Like, that's her. What he said was her take. You know how he was saying preside doesn't mean you're in charge. It means that you, like, teach. And that's. That's her book. Like, that's from her book for sure. So. And I. And I haven't heard it from other people. So. So I didn't, obviously didn't listen to conference, but when I was hearing people talk about it, I was like, I think that this is. I think she's the one that, like, started this way of thinking. And now it's going to get used. Yeah, now it's gonna. Now it's gonna get used to. And they're gonna be like, no, we didn't. We didn't ever say men preside. We said that preside doesn't mean preside. It means to teach. And. But yeah, that's her.
John Dehlin [01:11:33] That's the way the church changes its theology. It just slowly changes and then says, it's always been that way.
Larissa Kindred [01:11:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. So I'm in this full thing, and then I decide that I'm gonna work at the temple.
John Dehlin [01:11:46] Because that'll fix everything. Yes, that'll fix everything.
Larissa Kindred [01:11:50] Well, again, this is me trying to think, like, what? Like, I just need to have some of my own things, you know? And so I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna work in the temple. It'll help me just have some time away. So this is kind of a funny thing.
John Dehlin [01:12:03] So is Nashville temple or.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nashville has a temple. So I go to my bishop and I'm like, hey, I wanna. I wanna serve in the. Volunteer in the temple. And he says, that's fine, except women who have minor children at home cannot be ordinance workers. It's like, it's been a.
Jeff Kindred [01:12:23] Men can, men can, but Women can't when they're children.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:26] So Jeff couldn't, like, be an ordinance worker.
John Dehlin [01:12:27] Oh, gosh.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:28] But I couldn't be an ordinance worker.
Jeff Kindred [01:12:29] She couldn't be the laundry, though.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:30] But they said, you can volunteer in the laundry.
Jeff Kindred [01:12:33] I kid you not, right?
Larissa Kindred [01:12:34] So I'm really. So I'm just sitting there, and I'm like, why? Why is this this way? And he's like, it's just because women are, like, so valuable in the home. And I was like, wait, I'm with my kids all day. Isn't it more valuable for him to be at home? Like, in. Like, this is in the evening, you know, like, there's just, like, evening sessions and stuff.
John Dehlin [01:12:53] So I didn't know about that rule.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:55] I also did not know they've actually
Jeff Kindred [01:12:57] changed it in the last.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:58] In 2019, just barely. So. So he was like. He was like, you can volunteer in the Baptistry and, like, help with laundry. And I'm just. I'm just such a good person that I was like, fine, I'll go do. I'm not too good for laundry. So I was like, fine, I'll volunteer in the. And do laundry in the Baptistry. So I. So I'm volunteering in the Baptistry. And I brought it up with the temple president, too. I was like, hey, I don't understand this policy. And same thing. He was like, well, like, you know, like, women are so valuable, and so, like, they just want to protect their time away from home, but obviously it's fine if I go there and do the laundry. And he also said, like, being an ordinance worker is fairly, like, taxing. Like, there's a lot to memorize. But I was like, no, the women don't speak when they're ordinance workers. The women don't say anything. They just have tasks that they do, but they don't say anything. So I was kind of like, okay, this just sounds to me like an archaic policy, and I'll just accept that it's archaic, and I'll just do my thing. And then. Yeah, so I did that for maybe a couple of. I did it for a couple of years. I was like, volunteering in the temple.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:06] Can we just. Can we just recognize the fact that. That you're having this experience at home? You know, with this idea of, like, cleaning house, doing laundry. You're trying to create space for yourself,
Jeff Kindred [01:14:17] and you go do laundry.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:19] They're like, we have some laundry for you.
Jeff Kindred [01:14:22] Perfect. Perfect fit.
John Dehlin [01:14:23] Right?
Jeff Kindred [01:14:24] This will do the trick. This will do the trick.
Larissa Kindred [01:14:26] I mean, it's valuable.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:28] It's because you're so valuable that we would like for you to fold these towels.
John Dehlin [01:14:31] I know, right?
Larissa Kindred [01:14:33] It's just so. And the sad thing is, is that I just, like, keep going along with it, you know? Like, this is the power of, like, conditioning. And the indoctrination is that I'm just like, yeah, well, this is. This is the best place for me to be. So I guess I'm just gonna volunteer in the. In the temple laundry, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:48] Truly. Truly. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:14:51] So, yeah. So that just that that policy just barely changed in 2019, so that's. That's an exciting move forward.
John Dehlin [01:14:59] And so did that make everything better? I'm assuming it did. I'm assuming that fixed it.
Larissa Kindred [01:15:03] Yes, it fixed problems.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:05] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:15:06] Oh, my gosh.
John Dehlin [01:15:06] Good now.
Larissa Kindred [01:15:07] Yeah. So I'm good.
John Dehlin [01:15:08] Story's over.
Larissa Kindred [01:15:09] Yep. The end. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:10] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories.
Larissa Kindred [01:15:13] Wait, so. So we. Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to add? Like, I know this is my crisis
Jeff Kindred [01:15:21] during this, during this time in the bishopric, I think is when I was exposed to the CES letter for the first time. I had. I had been reading Rough Stone Rolling, which is an interesting thing. I had read it previously when we were in South Bend, and then I had read it again a few years ago, and, you know, Rough Stone Rolling for me was so interesting because it gave me, you know, Joseph's treasure digging and all these things that you had heard about. It gave me a place to put them in a faith promoting enough light that I could build. I call it my house of cards, where I could put a place for everything. And it all was held together because I still thought the fruits of the church were where it was at. You know, the fruits were there, and the fruits were the thing that was the most important. So I remember seeing the CES letter, and I got it, and I started reading it, and as you do, you start to feel sick inside. And it was like, page two. And so I said, oh, gosh, that's the spirit telling me that this thing is bad. And so put it away. And that's when around that same time, when I stumbled upon the video of you and Jeremy Runnels interviewing. And I had never seen either of you, but the picture I had conjured in my mind of who John Dehlin was and who Jeremy Runnels was, that when I watched. And again, I watched probably 10 minutes of the video, and I remember the cognitive dissonance was so thick for me in thinking that, wait a minute, this isn't who. Who. I pictured this. These people being Jeremy. Both. Both, Absolutely both, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:17:06] Like no horns.
Jeff Kindred [01:17:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, it was just pornography. And I don't know what I was. I don't know what I envisioned in my mind, but I didn't get it. And. And no weed
Larissa Kindred [01:17:19] or like an evil, like lawyer in a suit that's trying to like tear down.
Margi Dehlin [01:17:23] I don't know. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:17:24] But I think what that did, you know, going through rough stone rolling is it made this house of cards, but it also made that very vulnerable to coming down too. I mean, I really do. I think that you have all of this information that, I mean, it always surprised me. I think Richard Bushman paints it in a very faith promoting light. I mean, I feel like he gives you explanations as a member to understand why Joseph Smith was treasure digging. Then you. I mean, when you really start to dig into that, you realize that. Yeah, that's probably not what. You know, I know he's probably worked this out and I think he probably believes the way he's worked it out, but it's a stretch. All of it is a stretch. Right. And especially when you get into the polygamy stuff. But again, it was good enough for me to have a place to put these issues and feel like they had their own little place in this thing. And it was all held up because the fruits of the church that I felt were good and that they were helping people to become like Christ, as you don't recognize, you know, the shame and the guilt. And again, I hadn't come to terms with any of that.
John Dehlin [01:18:35] So you said bishopric or stake high council by this point.
Jeff Kindred [01:18:38] This is when I was in the bishopric. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:41] And it's funny, this is when the gospel topics essays came out. And one of the members of our bishopric.
Jeff Kindred [01:18:46] No, it was our bishopric who told us. He told us, we do not tell people to read these. They are not for public consumption. Not for public consumption. If someone's having a crisis, the church has made them so they can, like help them. And it was really funny because our.
John Dehlin [01:19:06] Wow, was that explicit.
Jeff Kindred [01:19:08] Yeah, they're not coming to the membership. That was not coming from him. He was telling us that, you know, what his training was. And then this was interesting because the guy who was our executive secretary, who is a friend of mine, and he was in that meeting and he said he had known about the. He had known about the gospel topic essays and he had. Actually, he and I had talked about the CS letter, so he had known about that too. But he did the same thing. I Did is he read a little bit, and he's like, oh, this is. Obviously, I'm feeling really bad, so it's got to be the spirit telling me it's bad. So. So he said when he heard that about the gospel topics essays, he went home and he read them, and that was the beginning of the end for him. So he's out, but there's the gospel topic. After the bishop said, these are not for public consumption, he's like, what's in them? So he goes home, and I have
John Dehlin [01:20:01] to make a quick announcement. I just found out this week that, like, the general authority over the Utah area presidency has just made a policy for all the missions in his area that the missionaries are not to read the book Saints, which is the church's own history book. But the church general authorities have decided that it's bad for Mormon missionaries to read the church's own approved biography of its own history. Oh, my God.
Larissa Kindred [01:20:32] I have heard of people struggling with reading Saints.
John Dehlin [01:20:35] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:20:36] Which.
Jeff Kindred [01:20:37] If you struggle reading Saints, then.
Larissa Kindred [01:20:39] Yeah, that's funny.
John Dehlin [01:20:44] Okay, so that's fascinating that in. In the bishopric, you're starting to get exposed, and maybe. Maybe some cracks are forming. Is that fair to say or not?
Jeff Kindred [01:20:55] I don't think yet, no. But I think the foundation for the crack.
John Dehlin [01:21:01] All right, okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:21:02] He's still pretty.
Jeff Kindred [01:21:04] Like, I call it a house of cards, because I think I had this thing built up, and everything had its place, and so that was. In that way, it was vulnerable.
Diverging Faith Paths and Marriage Tensions
John Dehlin [01:21:14] And are you getting at all nervous about Larissa's cracks and progressivism and wokeism growing as you're in this bishopric and watching her kind of unravel? At least that's how I'm seeing it. Are you getting nervous?
Jeff Kindred [01:21:28] No, I don't. I don't think I perceived it as an unraveling as much as Larissa just being progressive. And that wasn't really overly concerning to me. I mean, I think at this point, I was certainly getting more progressive, too. You'd agree with that, right? I mean, I think that I was doing a little bit of work myself and doing a little bit more reading and studying, not just church stuff, but outside of church things. That was helping me.
Larissa Kindred [01:21:55] And I think as our kids got older, too, I think that you and I saw more issues or, you know, maybe you understood more what their experience was in the church. And so. And I was just talking about it so much, and so I think that. I think that you started to move closer to where I was, even if we weren't totally in sync. Would you say that that's accurate.
John Dehlin [01:22:16] Yeah. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:22:18] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:22:18] And one. One thing that Jeff always said in the church is he, you know, sometimes he would say. I know people say that the. The church has a messy history, but the fruits are good. So that was something that was like, very, like, kind of central to his belief in the church, is that the fruits are good. What it's producing is good. That's how he perceived it, is that it was good, and so it was worth it. And we don't even need to dig into whatever.
John Dehlin [01:22:45] Is it true?
Larissa Kindred [01:22:46] Yeah. Is it true because it was. Because the fruits of it were good?
Jeff Kindred [01:22:49] Well, and I believed it was true. That was. I think that is really important. I full on did, kid. I believe that people weren't perfect. So you had an imperfect. You had imperfect history or imperfect things. But. But. But it didn't mean the church wasn't true because the fruits were the. Were the real thing. That showed you that it was true. Right. So that was. That was a big thing for me, and it also, I think, set me up for the. The crash, too.
John Dehlin [01:23:16] Okay. Okay. All right. So I think is. Is the next step kind of Larissa's continued unraveling.
Larissa Kindred [01:23:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:24] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:23:25] It keeps going. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:27] So maybe we should not call it unraveling.
Larissa Kindred [01:23:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:29] Or enlightening. What do you want to call it?
Larissa Kindred [01:23:32] What's your nomination Unraveling?
John Dehlin [01:23:35] What do you call it? What do you call it?
Margi Dehlin [01:23:36] Margi, I feel like it's like coming into her own. Like.
Larissa Kindred [01:23:42] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:43] Exploring. Giving herself some space to, like, explore and learn and come to terms with things in her own space and in her own way, arguably.
John Dehlin [01:23:53] When's the podcast for today?
Larissa Kindred [01:23:54] Well, I. I think from the church's perspective, it. They would say it was an unraveling. Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:00] Just.
Larissa Kindred [01:24:00] Just like.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:01] And that's the terminology you're using. Right.
Larissa Kindred [01:24:03] So. So, yeah, from a. From a church standpoint. But yeah, I think that's a. That's a very nice.
John Dehlin [01:24:07] Well, a lot of people get after me for calling it a faith crisis. They want to call it like a. A faith awakening. Right. Or faith enlightenment.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:14] Not.
John Dehlin [01:24:15] Not something negative. They want to want it framed in a positive way.
Jeff Kindred [01:24:18] Well, and it was funny at this time because I was on the high council and. Or was I Stake Young men's. And Larissa was complaining that she. She never gets called, like, she feels like she's kind of like, just like, not.
Larissa Kindred [01:24:37] I felt invisible.
Jeff Kindred [01:24:38] Yeah. Invisible.
Larissa Kindred [01:24:39] So I think that Jeff is always in leadership. And then in addition to that, Jeff is very outgoing, and he's Very charismatic. And then he was pretty close with the members of the stake presidency. So one of them is still one of Jeff's best friends, was our stake president for a long time. And just we had a great stake presidency. And I think that they were pretty. Pretty liberal and even with their own progressive views. And so. And I think these are things that kind of maybe even kept us going for a little bit. Is that it was like. No, I know that, you know, like, they. They also do this. And, you know, the stake president's wife is the one that gave me the Wendy Ulrich book. And so, you know, I think that it made me kind of feel like things can change because we have these progressive people in leadership. But I feel like for the longest time, you know, I would, you know, Jeff was serving in the bishopric, and then I would go to my temple recommend interview, and the bishop would just say, like, oh, I'm so grateful for your husband. He, like, does so much. So then my temple recommend interview is about Jeff. And then, you know, like, I'll see, like, a member of the stake presidency at state conference, and they'll just be like, hey, I saw Jeff. Like, you know, Jeff is a cyclist. So they were like, oh, I saw you had, like, a really good ride yesterday. And I was like, after a while, I was like, I'm so sick of talking about Jeff all the time. Like, my whole life revolves around him. And you're delightful. But honestly, like, it gets to the point where it's like, I'm invisible, like, nobody cares. And I sometimes think when you're a stay at home mom, people don't know how to talk to you because, you know, they can be like, oh, how are the kids? And you're like, oh, they're good. And they don't really know that you might have other interests, you know, like, outside of your kids. And so. So I really felt like I was kind of invisible. And yeah, I think I said this at one point to Jeff where I was like, it doesn't matter. I'm just an appendage of you in the church. I'm just here to be your trophy wife while you're serving on the high council. So then shortly after that, I was called to be the Relief Society president in our ward.
John Dehlin [01:26:47] Was that as a way to. Was that as a way to rescue you, or do you think they just didn't know?
Larissa Kindred [01:26:52] No, I don't think so. And, you know, so we had a black bishop, and I was, like, feeling him, and he's. He's a great guy. Like, we love him. And he's. He's actually. He became the stake president shortly after that. So. So we had a black bishop, and there's not very many black bishops or black stake presidents in the United States. So this was a huge deal for
John Dehlin [01:27:14] me in the South. In the south, no less.
Larissa Kindred [01:27:16] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:27:17] In the Confederacy. And.
Larissa Kindred [01:27:19] Yes. Yes. And he. And he. He is like. He's fantastic. So, like, to this day, I don't have bad things to say to him, so I'm just feeling him, and I'm just like, yes, my kids are gonna see black leadership. And, like, this is gonna be good. And again, these are all things that I'm like, yeah, this is. The church is changing, you know, like, this is. We're gonna make it better. And this is what it needs to be, and this is what the restoration is all about, is that we need to get it to where it should be, which is the way that I thought it should be.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:51] Oh.
Larissa Kindred [01:27:52] So. So anyways, he. This was really out of the blue. And so, because I feel like I had been. I had been a young women's president twice. I taught early morning seminary. I had just come off of being the primary chorister, which I. Which was actually really fun. And I had a good time with the kids, but. So he called me in, and it was just a total shock. And so I. I think I was laughing when he. He was like, we want to call you Relief Study President. So I was laughing.
Jeff Kindred [01:28:21] No, I was laughing first because he brought me in first, and he told me he's going to call her, and I started laughing. He said, I've never had that reaction before. And I said, well. And then they brought Larissa, and he told her, and she started laughing, too. And so it was really.
Larissa Kindred [01:28:33] So I.
Jeff Kindred [01:28:34] We had just had this conversation that she's in.
Larissa Kindred [01:28:36] I was like, I'm invisible in the church. And so. So. So I told him. I was like, I don't know that I'm Relief Society president material. Like, I feel like I have views that are, you know, like, are a little, like, off the. Off the beaten path or whatever. So I don't know. And he said to me. He said, I think that's why you should be the Relief Society president. So I think him. And with his standpoint, like, he's coming in as a black man in the church, I think that this is something that he valued, which was very nice for me to experience, where he said, no, the fact that you feel like you're not a classic Relief Society president, that's why you should be a Relief Society president.
John Dehlin [01:29:16] Can I just say, like, this is happening more and more. I have a friend. I won't, I won't say his name because he's in a mixed faith marriage. He's also, he's also married to a biracial Asian woman.
Larissa Kindred [01:29:26] Oh. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:29:26] But I don't want to. But anyway, he lost his faith completely. Went and told his bishop and he got called into the bishopric. He's like, wait, you don't understand. I don't believe at all. And the bishop said the same thing. It's like, that's why we want you, because you're going to be extra useful to all the people hemorrhaging is the
Jeff Kindred [01:29:44] church loses their faith.
John Dehlin [01:29:46] And he served for a couple years, but it was like, toxic to his soul.
Larissa Kindred [01:29:50] Oh, I bet.
John Dehlin [01:29:51] Because he had to get up and, you know, conduct every third week and bear testimony, and it became, like, bad for his mental health. But he did it.
Larissa Kindred [01:30:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. And I don't, I don't know that, like, people in my ward knew that I had, like, that I was formulating some beliefs that even were kind of like, outside the realm of what was okay for, you know, even LDS people. Because at this time, I was starting to get, like, very attached to, like, it's not right for us to just pray to a male. If we believe that there are, like, heavenly parents, then it's not right for us to pray to just the man. And so I was like, telling our kids, like, you should be praying to either heavenly mother or two heavenly parents, but just praying to a man. I just can't get behind that because it enforces this, like, patriarchal view. So.
John Dehlin [01:30:43] And I imagine the Relief Studies president teaching to pray to mother in heaven, like, what the.
Larissa Kindred [01:30:49] But hey, I still knew my place. I. I still knew. Like, you say that at home, you don't bring that to church. So I kind of, like, knew how to, how to separate or kind of compartmentalize those things. So. So I get called to be the release of the.
John Dehlin [01:31:03] Margaret, she just said, I still knew my place.
Larissa Kindred [01:31:07] That was. No, it's sad, but it's true in the church.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:11] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:31:11] Like, I kind of knew, like, don't make people too uncomfortable. So I start off as the relief study president. We thought Jeff would get released from the High Council because there was kind of this thing where they were like, we don't want to over tax families, and so we don't have, have two people be, you know, like in, in high, high demand callings at the same time. But they didn't release Jeff.
Jeff Kindred [01:31:34] Well, they released me as a stake young men's president and then called me the high council. Remember that?
Larissa Kindred [01:31:38] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:39] Which is just disciplinary councils, like, once a month.
Jeff Kindred [01:31:43] A couple months later. Yeah. So they released me as one thing, and then a couple months later called me to the other.
Larissa Kindred [01:31:47] I think the hard thing, though, about being on the high council outside of Utah is that Jeff was driving into Kentucky to visit the ward that he was over, and so it felt he was just gone again. And so, like, he would have, like, speaking engagements, but then he was supposed to go to his ward's ward council twice a month.
Jeff Kindred [01:32:07] This is still the.
Larissa Kindred [01:32:08] Yeah, so I'm. So I'm the Relief Society president, and so I'm still. I think at this point, we were kind of like, I need to go to ward council. Can you get the kids ready? And then sometimes he would, like, bring the kids to me at church, and then he would drive to his thing. So we were just. At this point, we're, like, all over the place because now he's sometimes, like, driving to Kentucky, and we're trying to get our kids where they need to be. And at this point, our son is, you know, in the deacon's quorum, and so sometimes he's supposed to be there preparing the sacrament. So we just are, like, really navigating, like, a really hectic situation on Sunday mornings. So. So, yeah, so I feel like I actually had a fairly good experience as the relief study president, and it's because I had a really. A really supportive bishopric, and I had. And I don't. I don't think they were, like. They were not liberal, like, politically liberal, but definitely a little bit church liberal. So. So our bishop. Our bishop that called me, who is black, he got. He got called to be our new stake president. And then there was a new bishopric called. And so they. So then. So then I was serving under a different bishop, but he was really big into, like, making sure women are being heard and having their place. So when I was. When I was first, like, serving under him, he was like, hey, we'd like you to sit on the stand. So he wanted, like, female leadership to be on the stand with the bishopric. So for a little bit. So again, these are all things that were making me be like, no. Yes. Like, we're going to. We're going someplace. Like, we're going the right direction. So. But it was kind of funny because I would sit on the stand sometimes, and when you do, people are always like, like, why are you here? Nobody else, like, knows or is aware, so they're just like, why are you sitting up here? And I'm like, I don't know why I'm sitting up here. And then. But it was tricky, too, because Jeff wasn't there very often. And so I was like, well, someone has to sit with our kids. And so I did it for a little bit, and then I was like, like, I, I. No one's sitting with my kids at church. They're just, like, sitting there on their own and, like, they're going to start fighting with each other. So it was a good thought, but it didn't last super long. But I think that was kind of like his thing. And he really, he sent out a thing with Word Counsel, and it was a, it was how important it is to listen and validate women and given them the space to say their thing in Word Counsel. And I was kind of on this kick in Relief Society that I hated for the Relief Society to do things that were, like, very heavily female gendered. So I was like, why are we always cleaning up after a thing? Or why do we coordinate the food for the Christmas activity? Like, I'll set up the tables and chairs. Like, I can do that. Like, why don't the, why don't the men do this? And so, and I think I had a, we had a very receptive ward to that. So I think that I actually had a pretty good experience because I had leadership that was very supportive of me, and they kind of were on the same page with that. And at one point I was talking to our bishop and he had wanted to call somebody to a Relief Society calling, and she didn't, she didn't want to do it. And so he was, he was talking to me about this and, and, and, and he said, where, where do you think she would like to serve? And I was like, well, I don't know. Like, she's young, so maybe she would like to be in the young women's. And he was like, yeah, that's a, that's a good idea. And then he said, said, if you ever have any other thoughts about other callings in the ward, let me know, you know, because we value your opinion and would like to hear that as a part of our revelation process. So I, I really was like, I was like, really feeling it, that I, I felt valued and I felt like I could kind of shape my experience and, and do my thing. And so.
John Dehlin [01:35:59] Sounds like a dream. It's a progressive Mormon dream.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:02] So unique.
Larissa Kindred [01:36:03] So it was Very unique.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:04] Yeah. Exceptional.
Larissa Kindred [01:36:06] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:36:06] Can you imagine if the church had treated us this way? Margi?
Larissa Kindred [01:36:10] I still think, you know, and I think that, that the dangerous thing about that is that these things can happen and you can almost think like, oh, it's changing. But I think for me, I started to realize, like, this is systemic, like, patriarchy is a system. It's not a person. It's not a few little things. It's a, A. It's a system of organizing. And so you can have bishops that will put a relief society present on the stand or do these different things, but it really, it's. It really doesn't change the core of who has authority and who can influence and really make changes in the church and who is represented.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:54] Right.
Larissa Kindred [01:36:55] Or whose views are represented. And so there, it's good, but it's also, I mean, it's, it's very limited. So I think it almost gave me a false sense of like, we're going in the right direction. But that was just one bishop, one time.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:08] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:37:09] And it definitely. That's not how it is from the top down.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:12] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:37:13] And so I think that that kind of appeased me for a little bit because I was just. I was just really feeling it. So.
John Dehlin [01:37:21] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:37:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:37:22] So you serve really, Saudi president for how long?
Larissa Kindred [01:37:25] So a couple years. And let's see. I bet it was like two and a half years. And, And. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:37:33] You got breast cancer.
Larissa Kindred [01:37:34] Yeah. And then I actually, I, So we, So I, So I was, I was really study president through Covid, so probably a year before COVID and then we did our Covid year. And then. And then really quick.
John Dehlin [01:37:50] We haven't covered that so much. How. There was always this realization as Covid started really advancing that the church might lose a lot of people to Covid because they got used. All of a sudden they don't have to go to church. Home, church, staying home. And they're going to get used to staying home, realize they like staying home, and then they're not going to go back.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:11] Do you have any. We, we haven't really covered.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:14] So do you have any Covid reflections?
Larissa Kindred [01:38:16] So, yeah, Covid was a thing, a big thing for us. So maybe before we jump into that, though, you and I came to a head.
John Dehlin [01:38:23] Oh, yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:23] Do that about our thing. Yeah. So I wanna tell one quick story, really quick about wearing pants to church, because this should not be a thing, but it is a thing. Like, you know, though, like, wearing pants to church is a thing. And it's ridiculous, but it is. So when I was the Relief Society president. You know, I had a friend in the ward, and she also was, like, very progressive, very nuanced in the church. And there was a girl that was a new convert that was a teenager that had. That had just joined the church. So she had just gotten baptized, and she was going to, like, do youth baptisms for the first time. And she said, can I. Can I wear, like, dress pants? She wore, like, like, nice dress pants to church. When she came, she just was like, I'm not into dresses. I've never worn dresses. And so my. My friend was kind of working with her, and, you know, like, their family was fellowshipping her, and so she was like, can I wear pants to the temple? And I think they had called the temple, and I think they said it was okay, like, as long as it was her, like, nice clothing, that it was fine. And so we. Her and I were having this conversation, and. And she said. She was like, I think we should be wearing pants to church because we're telling this girl it's okay. It doesn't matter. Like, you wear what's right for you and what's respectful to church. But, like, why don't. Why do none of us ever wear pants to church? It's because they kind of have been, like, stigmatized or, you know, like, people kind of associated it with, like, these are liberal feminists if you wear pants to church. So she was like, I think we need to wear pants to church. And I said. I said, yeah, I'm with you, except I'm just gonna run it by the bishop because I'm the Relief Society president, and I don't want him to think I'm liberal. And she said to me, but aren't you liberal? And I was kind of like, yes, but I don't want people to know that, you know? And so in the end, I was just like, no, you're right. Like, I. I just need to. If I feel like it's okay to wear pants to church, I'm just gonna wear pants to church. And it's silly that it was such a big deal, but it was a big deal. And I think this is sort of me starting to step out of, like, being palatable for everybody in the church and saying, like, no, I'm gonna do the thing, and maybe somebody might think that I'm going off the rails, but I'm just gonna do it anyways. So as the Relief Society president, I started wearing pants to church. And it was to make a statement. Like, I was trying to say, like, this doesn't matter. I'm still, like, dressed nice. I'm still doing this thing. And so, I don't know, it maybe seems insignificant, but for me, I think it was, like, a step for me to say, you don't have to be everyone's cup of tea. You can just do your thing and even make some people unhappy.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:03] I love that. It doesn't seem insignificant at all. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:41:07] Thank you.
John Dehlin [01:41:08] And you might lose your feminist card if you ask the bishop for permission to wear this.
Jeff Kindred [01:41:12] Right.
Larissa Kindred [01:41:13] That was my first reaction, though. I was like. Like, let me just run it by the bishop, though, because I don't want him to think I'm going off the rails.
Jeff Kindred [01:41:19] It is.
Larissa Kindred [01:41:19] It is kind of like, really, we
Jeff Kindred [01:41:21] even have to, like, think that in
Larissa Kindred [01:41:23] what year, for what we wear.
John Dehlin [01:41:26] What year? 2021 or 2020 or whatever.
Larissa Kindred [01:41:28] And I think this is what happens when. I mean, even when women have authority in the church, you still have to defer to. You will always have a male leader over you. And obviously, this had been so heavily conditioned to me that I was like, well, let me just check with the. The male leader that's in charge of me. I don't know. It's just silly. So, yeah, so we were kind of at a place in our life where I'm just kind of, like, with the kids trying to find my place, and I started to kind of think, like, I need something that's just mine. Like, I was identifying, like, I think that my life has revolved around Jeff. And everywhere we've lived, we lived there. Cause Jeff. It was Jeff's job. And we went into debt for Jeff's medical school, and we made sure that he could, you know, have all the opportunities that he needed to for his career. And then, of course, my life revolves around my kids. And it just came to kind of a breaking point. And. And I was. So. I was starting to kind of look around for, like, I. I need something. Like, I need something of my own. So I was looking into, like, should I just volunteer at, like, a nonprofit that I feel strongly about? And then I started thinking, like, no, I actually think it might be important to me to make some money, like, of my own. That's just, you know, like, I. I felt so economically dependent on Jeff. I feel. I feel. I honestly, I felt economically vulnerable. Like, if something happens, like, I really. I don't have. I think that I'm smart and I have. I could learn things, but I don't have a job history. I don't have, really, job skills. I don't have a degree. And so I just felt extremely vulnerable. And so I also was looking around at maybe doing a small something. Like, I was like, maybe I'll get certified for phlebotomy. Because, you know, I had done my EMT thing before or should I, like, learn how to be an X ray tech or something. So I. I was just kind of trying to think, like, what. What is something that I could do that's just little. So I don't want to disrupt my family. I don't want to disrupt my kids or anything. I just. Just want to have a little something that's mine. So I was kind of in that space. But. But again, we're listening. I'm. I'm. I'm way deep into these podcasts and
John Dehlin [01:43:46] the, the feminist women.
Larissa Kindred [01:43:48] Yes. And they're all believing and active. Yeah. But I'm. I'm like, I'm deep in him. So. So at one point, Jennifer Finlayson Fife was do. She said, she was like, I'm gonna do a Facebook Live and we're gonna talk about resentment in marriage. And so I was like, oh, yeah, that will probably be a good one. And again, I don't think it was till then that I really, like, identified. Like, I'm. I think I'm very. I have a lot of built up resentment toward Jeff about the way that our life has kind of shaped itself. And so, yeah, so I. So I listened to this. I listened to the first part of it, and I was like, oh, no, this is really good. And so then I. I think I stopped it. And then I waited till that night and I said, we need to listen to this together. So we both listened to this, and it was really. I think it was really centered on that we accept this kind of patriarchal structure where, like, the man is the focal point and the woman just is taught to, like, you know, orbit or defer or. I mean, even, like. I mean, we're just always taught to, like, put our own needs, you know, to be a good, righteous woman, you have to put your own needs. Needs to the side, and you always have to be managing the needs of others. So she just hit on a lot of really good things. And I feel like that was. It just hit me really hard that, that I was like, we accepted a. A system for our structure, for our marriage. And I. I don't think that I understood it. And so I don't. I don't actually feel like I chose it. I don't feel like I chose it. And. And right now, I don't like it, and I'm not happy with it. And so I. I'm. I. I'm rejecting it now. And so we kind of, like, came to this spot, and I had been just, like, struggling, like, doing the thing with the kids and trying to find my place. And I think it was at that point that I really. I remember breaking down and crying and saying to you, like, I actually think I'm very unhappy. And it's hard because I know that, like, our life has so much. There's so many areas where we are privileged. And, you know, like, Jeff is a high earner, and he has a good career. And so, you know, part of me is like, you know, what do you have to be upset about? Like, just, like, you can, you know, like, you have so much privilege in your life, but it was. The structure that we were living in was not something that I chose, and it wasn't something that felt good or authentic to me anymore. And I think that it. This was the thing that kind of, like, finally made me identify it. And so I was like. It was the first time I was like, I'm unhappy. Like, I'm unhappy with this.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:32] That's powerful.
John Dehlin [01:46:34] And, Jeff, what was that like for you? Were you nervous?
Jeff Kindred [01:46:37] Yeah, it's not fun. I mean, yeah, it wasn't a fun conversation, but I think it was nice because I think this was the beginning of me starting to realize that these things. It wasn't about living the gospel more to fix these problems. Right. I mean, that wasn't gonna be the solution here. And I think that was a big turning point, I guess, for us in our relationship is recognizing the problem. And I think that was a big part of us then moving forward. And it's a long road, and we're still on that road. But, yeah, certainly that's. That was the beginning.
Larissa Kindred [01:47:22] And I think this was the first time, too, that we identified. You know, you kind of hear about, like, oh, patriarchy is bad, or these things, but I think that we started to dig into, like, what the structure looks like. You know, like, this is an actual system, and this is how it identifies itself. And patriarchy is bad for women, and it's bad for men because it creates hierarchy in relationships. And so we kind of were identifying that this. Like, this thing that the church sold us, that this was the way. And this was the. You know, this is how. How you set up your marriage so that it's most successful. I think it was the first time we had actually pointed the finger at the church and said, you sold us this. And it actually creates hierarchy between men and women, and it harms intimacy and relationships. Would you say that that was kind of like maybe it wasn't that developed, but that was the first time we were like, the church told us this, and now I'm unhappy because I did the thing that they told me to do, and I think we were doing it as about as good as you can do it in the church. But in the end, it's still. I was like, this is. This. This didn't pan out. Like, it's like, this is. This is no good. It's not. It's not good for us. Us?
John Dehlin [01:48:40] Yeah, Jeff.
Jeff Kindred [01:48:42] We were doing the formula. Yeah. But the result was not. Was the fruit what they told us? Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:49] The fruit was not what you had anticipated.
John Dehlin [01:48:52] What happens with the great planet when the great planet of happiness doesn't make you happy? Right, Right.
Larissa Kindred [01:48:56] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:48:57] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:48:58] And. And the hard thing about when you start digging into understanding systems of oppression is once you start to understand, like, that this is well defined and there's characteristics of it, you will start IDing it all over the place. And so I think that then we start being in a place with the church where we start seeing issues happening all over the place because of this structure. And I think that the patriarchal structure, my personal belief is that it is so foundational to the church. I think it's almost like more. It's how they set up their power structure. I think it's almost more foundational than almost anything else. I just think it's so key to how the church has functioned. And so I think once I was understanding that, it kind of made me feel like my Mormon feminism might be a dead end, because, you know, like, you can have these things happen in your ward, and you can be feeling good, but is it changing? You know, the structure is so ingrained, and there's so much hierarchy in the. In the. The way that the upper levels of the church functions. So it really makes you think, like, are we gonna. Are we ever really gonna get there?
Jeff Kindred [01:50:14] And this. And so this led into Covid. You know, we're kind of in this little area, and then Covid comes and the. The 2020 election comes, and I. And I think both those things were a crack. Also for me, seeing members of the church line up behind Donald Trump was really hard for me. I mean, and not to try and make a political thing, but for me, it was really challenging because I see what we idealize as moral, and I did not see that in him. And it wasn't Just, I mean, so that was a challenge. And then when Covid came, and I see people who.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:53] Who.
Jeff Kindred [01:50:54] It's not just saying they're not going to wear masks, but saying the spirit told them that they don't need to get vaccinated, or the spirit told them that they don't need to wear masks. And as a physician, that was challenging on so many levels, because if we believe that we have this holy spirit and we have a bigger portion of the spirit than everyone else, it just seems crazy to me that you're receiving the spirit's telling you different. Something different than it's telling me or that it's telling them or that it's telling our supposed prophet. And that was a really big thing for me to start to say, wait a minute, what is the spirit and why? If it's telling people different things or we're interpreting it different ways, then is it doing any good? And so that was definitely something that certainly didn't break my faith. But it was, again, another beginning of a crack for me to going down the road, you know, that started that path.
Covid, George Floyd, and Political Awakening
Larissa Kindred [01:51:52] I think Covid was a huge thing for you because. Yeah, just from. I mean, Jeff's working as a doctor during this time, and he, like, he was still working in an urgent care. They were, like, seeing people that were coming in with COVID symptoms even before we kind of knew how contagious. So it was a scary time for us. And to have people, you know, kind of disregard or latch onto conspiracy theories. I feel like. I just remember you were so. You were so frustrated. It was so hard to watch it go down.
Jeff Kindred [01:52:23] Yeah, it was really, really challenging. And then it was during that time that George Floyd happened, and that was a big thing for me, too. I think that was a real turning point for me from a racial perspective.
John Dehlin [01:52:39] Now there's going to be, let's just say, orthodox Mormons or people newly questioning who aren't. Who are going to think of Black Lives Matter as a bad thing. You know, they're going to say, blue lives matter, all lives matter, or Black Lives Matter is a liberal conspiracy. Maybe talk about whether it's your kids or other things that made you look at the George Floyd thing differently than other orthodox Mormons might.
Larissa Kindred [01:53:07] Right. Well, I. I think that. So. So I. I know that there has been. There's questions about the Black Lives Matter organization, but Black Lives Matter is an organization, and it's a movement. And so, you know, like, I feel like you can even say, like, I'm not sure, you know, about the Organization. But, like. But, yeah, I think it's very important to understand what it is as a movement, because it is a movement. And. Yeah. And Black Lives Matter exists to point to a systemic issue. And so, you know, obviously, everybody knows that all lives matter, but historically, black lives have mattered less. And those things have been, I mean, heavily built into how this country has functioned and other places. So you've got issues with the reconstruction after the Civil War. You've got the Jim Crow laws. There's huge discrepancies in care, in healthcare for black people. And then you've got these systemic issues with policing that they, you know, like, that they've looked into it and seen and that they're finding, like, yes, this is something that looks like it's cultural. And so that's. That's what. That's how this is how I interpret Black Lives Matter, is that we're identifying an issue, and everybody thinks that all lives matter, except that they don't, because historically, black lives have mattered less. And so this is a way to point to an issue and say, we have to do better. And so, for me, it's very offensive when somebody says all lives matter because it's a way to invalidate something that a community has gone through for decades and decades. So obviously, this is. For me, this is a very, very important movement to me. And so that's why I think it's important is because it's a way to validate this is what black people are experiencing. And I know that some people are like, well, that was in the past, so let's move on. But nobody can move on if we. If you are just continually traumatized. Right. So if they're still being traumatized, no one acknowledges what has happened. There's no, you know, apologies or there's no. Like, if we. Then how do we move on? You know, like, from a. Like a therapy standpoint, how do you move on if you're just continually being both invalidated and traumatized? And so that's how I view, like, this movement and why it's so important. It's to validate and say, like, yes, these lives have been undervalued, and now we're saying that they value as much as everybody else's do.
John Dehlin [01:55:51] And, Jeff, how is it for you as still in a state high council or, you know, as still a more orthodox believer than Larissa? How was. How did George. How'd you. Is there anything you want to add to how you processed George, Floyd and Black Lives Matter?
Jeff Kindred [01:56:06] Well, I think. I think it spurred Me to do some. Some reading. I read several books at that time and I think it really helped me to get. Yep, I did read that. And White Fragility I read, which I thought was a very good. And I know people are, you know, will get worked up about that book, but I think it's very true. I mean, these are things that it's so easy when you're living in a privileged position to not think about and to not worry about. And so it was good. I felt like it was a paradigm shift for me and it was also a way that I could then empathize and it makes a difference when you have black children. And also coming to this perspective, realizing that maybe living the gospel isn't enough. Right. I mean, there's more that has to be done if we're going to change this. And so, yeah, I think that was an important moment for me and I think Covid was the underlying thing of all of this. Seeing all of this act out and then the two sides of this issue and the conspiracies and the misinformation was just so disheartening to me and so difficult to be a healthcare professional and be watching this happen around, I mean, all around us and members of the church and just people in our community, I mean, just craziness and some of the. I mean, patience and also members asking me questions and, you know, assuming that I'm. That I'm anti vaxx or I mean, just the different things that we get was really. Was really challenging.
John Dehlin [01:58:01] Okay.
Jeff Kindred [01:58:02] And then I think doing church at home was another thing that was. Helped us to once, like, once we had those Sundays, they were so good. And I feel like we had the best church we've ever had was our home church.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:17] It was a magical time.
Jeff Kindred [01:58:18] It really was.
Larissa Kindred [01:58:19] Oh, we loved it. And then so. So we're. We're at home with our kids and I. I've never been. I know that some people like really love the Tabernacle Choir and I just don't love churchy music like that. And so we were at home and I was like, I'm gonna play these guys a song that like, I really love or I don't know. So. So I'm like, we're gonna play our music that I feel like is like hits my spiritual spirit. And then we're just teaching them the gospel according to Jeff and Larissa. And we're just at home and it was such a healing time for us. And I think that was eye opening for a lot of people because all of A sudden we had, like, a chance to sit back and be like, okay, like, once I'm out of this hamster wheel, you know, then I can have a chance to breathe and look around and say, like, what am I doing? Like, what are we doing with this?
Jeff Kindred [01:59:11] Yeah, the hamster wheel is a good. That's a good metaphor. It really was. I mean, we had never had Sundays multiple in a row where we did not have to be at church, or at least for me, church for 6, 8, 10 hours or Larissa stressed out about. And it was, like, so nice. I mean, it was. It was. It was. I mean, having those Sundays was just a. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:59:34] Really, really.
Larissa Kindred [01:59:35] It was a gift.
Jeff Kindred [01:59:36] A gift. And really great.
John Dehlin [01:59:37] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:59:38] And it's sad cause, I mean, some people really struggled in Covid because they didn't have support or. Cause they lost their job. So I understand that us loving the COVID time is also a privileged position because Jeff was still able to work, and even though it was stressful, he was still working. You know, there were people that, you know, lost their jobs and couldn't pay their rent. And so, you know, I feel sort of bad saying, like, it was a nice time, because I know that for some people it was. Was devastating.
Jeff Kindred [02:00:06] But it was nice on Sundays at least.
Larissa Kindred [02:00:08] But it was. Yeah, but. But I mean. I mean, I'm just saying because we kind of have this level of privilege.
Jeff Kindred [02:00:13] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:00:13] It was actually really nice for us.
John Dehlin [02:00:16] So we have friends who worked in ER rooms or even psychiatrists for whom covet is really brutal. Just super heavy and intense.
Jeff Kindred [02:00:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:00:25] Was it. Was it that way for you as a sports?
Jeff Kindred [02:00:27] Oh, yes. So. So our clinic does primary care, and then we have urgent care, and then I do our orthopedic stuff for all that. And so, yeah, I mean, for the first few months, my business went way down, and I was seeing a lot of primary care things. We were seeing them outside because that was before we knew much about the virus. And so we were actually seeing patients outside, trying to be as safe as we can, wearing masks and. And, yeah, it was a stressful time. I mean, it was. And I say that again, stressful. Not comparing to a lot of people who. But it was stressful in healthcare and not knowing and then having people. I felt like there was a big loss of trust through Covid for healthcare. And we felt that. I mean, people who. At the beginning, we're, like, so grateful. And then by the end, like, coming in and telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I mean, that's a really. That was a very interesting thing to go through. And, you know, it's funny because even last week, I had a patient in my office who was telling me about. I don't know. This is what he told me. I don't know if you've gotten the vaccine, but if you want my advice, don't get it. He's like, it's gonna. And he starts listing off all the things it's gonna do to me. I said, oh, I'm already all vaccinated, so we're well past that. But he comes in to get my professional advice, medical advice, and then proceeds to give me his medical advice about the vaccine. And so that's just, you know, kind of par for. Par for the course.
John Dehlin [02:02:10] That's funny.
Larissa Kindred [02:02:11] I think another thing that was hard for us, watching church members is that, you know, at the beginning of COVID everybody was kind of losing their minds. And, you know, there was like. Like, kind of hoarding of supplies. And it's funny because, you know, like, I grew up in the church before, you know, like the year 2000, when there was tons of pressure to have your supply of food and have food storage. And so I was kind of like, Mormons, this is our moment. Like, you should be living, like, live off your food storage. Don't get in a fight with someone at Costco over toilet paper. And then you could even take the money that you're saving from living off your.
John Dehlin [02:02:47] Off your.
Larissa Kindred [02:02:47] Since you're living off your food storage, and you could give it to people who lost their jobs in Covet. You know, Like, I was like, isn't this what it was for? Like, isn't this what. Isn't this what they told us to, like, have the food storage for was for emergencies. But I feel like there was still, like. Like, the members were just like, everybody, you know, like, we were. Everyone was just kind of freaking out, not knowing what to do. And I was kind of like, shouldn't this be our moment when we're like, okay, it's all right. We're prepared. Like, we know what to do, and we've got this because we were taught to be prepared and we have resources and we have a year's supply of food, and so we're good, but we. But they were. I mean, we were just like everybody else, you know? Like, it was just. I was like, oh, this isn't. This isn't our moment. It's just crazy. But it was a crazy time. But so George, Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor are all killed. And up to this point, I have tried to really talk to my kids about, you know, like, what, you know, as much as I can teach them about. You know, I'm trying to connect them to their community. I'm trying to. But we. I have not talked to my kids about police brutality because I'm just. I know that I have to. Every. Every parent to a black child knows you have to have, like, the talk with your child about, like, what do you do if you get pulled over? You know, like, make sure it's well lit, start your camera going. You know, like, be as pleasant as you can. So, like, there's things that you. That you have to tell your child when you have black children. And so I had not talked to my kids about this yet because I just. I hate them knowing that they're going to be targeted for something that is just 100%, you know, has to do with their skin color. But this is such a big deal. And it hit us so hard that we were like. We were both like. And we're kind of, like, more in sync at this point. And so we were like, we have to. We have to talk about this. So this was a really, really heavy thing for us and our family was the protesting that was happening. And just. And I think that the thing that was so hard for me is that we had so many members of our ward who were posting things online that were just terrible.
John Dehlin [02:05:08] Can you give examples?
Larissa Kindred [02:05:09] I mean, just saying, like, I can't believe these thugs are out, like, protesting. And like, well, you know, George Floyd shouldn't have been doing this, and then this wouldn't have happened to him, you know, and so just completely invalidating and saying, like, yeah, this is, like, so, like, them or, you know, and. And I. And I know that the protesting was. I know it was rough. I know that there was, like. Like, scary things that happened that summer with the protests. But to me, I was like, this is a community that is just reeling from, like, trauma after trauma after trauma. And so, like, you have to look at this and say, like, what is going on? And instead, people were like, I, like, you know, like, of course they're just trashing their communities. And, like. And so I just. I'm just hearing people, you know, post these things and say these things and, you know, like. And somebody in my ward posted and said, like, if you support these types of things, I don't know how you can even get a temple recommend, you know? And so I think that this was a time where you And I start saying, I don't think this is our community anymore. Like, we actually felt like the church was not our community. And so even though, you know, we talk about this and we say, like, the church, that's one of the benefits of the church, that maybe even if the truth claims aren't true, it's still a community until it's. Until it's not your community. And then it's very, very toxic and harmful.
John Dehlin [02:06:34] I think Bill Real may have said, once you go from it's true and good to, well, maybe it's not true, but it's still good.
Margi Dehlin [02:06:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:06:45] But then what happens when you get to. Well, it's actually not so good.
Larissa Kindred [02:06:48] Right.
John Dehlin [02:06:48] At least for you or from your perspective.
Larissa Kindred [02:06:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:06:52] Then it's neither true nor good. Good.
Larissa Kindred [02:06:53] Yeah, yeah. And at this point, we've already had a few, like, small instances of, like, you know, microaggressions or like, racial profiling with our kids. And so now I'm thinking, like, I'm supposed to take them to church with these people, you know, who are like, you know, like, oh, these thugs, like, what are they doing? You know, I'm like, how can I send my kids to church with these people who feel this way and don't understand, like, that this is so important to us? And then, like, how do I send my kids to BYU or, you know, like, how do I. How do we be a part of this space when these things that are important to them and to other people and to other, you know, like, other marginalized groups, like, if they're just going to be invalidated, then how do we be in that space? And around. It was like that. Around that same time that the. The manual. The Come Follow Me manual, it was that lesson that was on skin color. And so we're, like, trying to do Come Follow Me at home with our kids. And then it's. It's that. It's that lesson about, you know, the skin and their. Their skin was cursed. And so I'm trying to explain this to my kids, and I'm just like,
John Dehlin [02:08:03] for those who don't know.
Larissa Kindred [02:08:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:05] Just a little more about what was said in the Come Follow Me manual.
Larissa Kindred [02:08:08] So, I mean, they had meant to
Jeff Kindred [02:08:10] take out a part talking about the curse of the Lamanites when the Nephites became wicked and God put a curse upon them in the Book of Mormon. In the Book of Mormon. And so they had dark skin from that point forward. And so there was a part in Come Follow Me, I think it was taken an excerpt out of a talk reiterating that this was a skin, and they're trying to change that, that it's not the skin, it's the countenance. So I think that's what it was.
Larissa Kindred [02:08:39] Yeah. So I think in the last. Last years, they're trying to move away from. From this rhetoric that it was, you know, that their skin was a curse. The skin. That skin color is a curse from God. And so. But it can't. It still found its way into the manual. And so.
John Dehlin [02:08:54] Because it was church Doctrine for 200 years.
Larissa Kindred [02:08:57] Oh, yeah. And I'm sure. I'm sure whoever is sitting there, like, writing the manuals, you know, it's just like, you know, Jim that works at the church office building because he has, like, this hidden his world view. He. He doesn't identify this, that this is problematic. And so it gets into the church manual. Even though they've kind of tried to change the rhetoric around it, but it still comes back. So it still is back. And so it was. It again, this was just very frustrating that I was like, we're still. We're still do. This is still happening, and how much longer will it happen? And. And this is happening at the same time that I'm listening to people invalidate the experience of the black community and what they're going through with this consistent, like, police brutality issue. And so it was. I think for both of us at this time, we were. It was just. We were just like, it's too much. Like, it's just not this. I don't think this is our place. And I think that we weren't even like, let's leave the church. I think we were like, you know what? This is fine that we go to church here, but these aren't our people. So it was almost like we had made the separation that, like, this is. I don't think this is our community anymore.
John Dehlin [02:10:05] And were you still in the state high council?
Jeff Kindred [02:10:08] I was, yeah. Matter of fact, during this same time, we had a disciplinary council, and before it started, there was this chatter going on from some of the older guys on the high council about lining up the Democrats and just killing them because they're no different than communists. I mean, this was kind of the rhetoric in the room, and I just. Just, you know, I mean, these are.
Larissa Kindred [02:10:34] These are men that are about to sit and judge somebody in a hike, you know, like in. In a disciplinary council. So, you know, it's like. Like you think that we need to line up, you know, like, you're conservative, and so you. You think that the other side is wrong and so we should line them up and kill them. But you think that you're fit to sit in a room, you know, like in a room and judge somebody else for their righteousness? It just. Yeah, it was rough. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:11:04] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [02:11:05] So, yeah, Jeff's still on the high council and I'm still the Relief Society president at this point. So we have Covid, which was just a rocky time. Good for us to be at home, but it was a rocky time. We've got the summer where you have all this racial protesting and then the election was just a total message and, you know, there were people on. It's just very divisive. And it just. It just felt so. It just felt so toxic. It was very hard. And it wasn't just, you know, like, general. It was also, like people within our ward that had very strong opinions that were saying certain things. It just. It just was a really kind of a yucky time, I think.
Larissa's Breast Cancer Diagnosis
John Dehlin [02:11:46] Okay, so. So I guess this is what. Wrapping up kind of part two, I think so. Any. You know, I guess in part three, we're going to be talking about you getting breast cancer.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:00] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:12:02] We're going to be talking about your son coming out as gay. We're going to be talking about your kind of full on faith crisis. Right.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:10] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:10] And the.
Jeff Kindred [02:12:11] And the sexual dysfunction that I think is a big part of that.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:12:15] Is. Is how. Yeah. The focus on.
Jeff Kindred [02:12:18] We dealt with that.
John Dehlin [02:12:19] How your breast cancer leads to some heavy, intense conflicts around sexual dysfunction that you guys have to work through.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:27] Yeah. So all of us were having a crappy year in 2020, and it was just like, we're ready to. Let's just close the door on this and let's start 2021. So. Yeah. So in late December is. I'm diagnosed with breast cancer. So that was like a way just to like. It's just the last punch in the face, like from 2020. Yeah, I was like, of course. And. And we can. And I don't know if we want to.
John Dehlin [02:12:52] We can talk about that next time.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:53] Yeah. So we can start with that and give more details. But yeah, this is. That's how we ended our 2020 year after all of this. It was like, here's one more. Here's one more punch.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:02] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:13:03] So, yeah, that's going to lead us into a full. A full thing.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:06] So.
John Dehlin [02:13:07] Well, Margi, how cool is. How cool is parts one and two been?
Margi Dehlin [02:13:11] Yeah. Amazing.
John Dehlin [02:13:13] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:13] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:13:14] Yeah. Well, we're so grateful again. You'd fly all the way here from Nashville, Tennessee and spend all day with us and we're going to do a little bit tomorrow morning.
Larissa Kindred [02:13:22] So yeah, it's been great.
John Dehlin [02:13:23] We're going to do one of those eight hour Mormon stories, maybe nine. But sometimes the story merits that. So thank you so much Larissa and Jeff Kindred, for all you've shared this so much is. Is actually newish to our audience.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:13:42] From the biracial children to the Japanese American biracial experience to just, just the unique combination, your feminist awakening with progressive Mormonism. We've covered a lot of progressive Mormon men, but we haven't covered the progressive Mormon woman experience.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:13:58] And this, this whole progressive Mormon Relief Society president where he pants to church like that's all new territory for Mormon stories.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:07] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:14:07] The theme themes, the themes you are bringing the themes.
John Dehlin [02:14:11] I really, I do want to end with this. This may be a hard question but you know, I so like I, I was so for many years, in the early years of Mormon stories, I was trying to help partner with others to lead a progressive Mormon movement. I started a website called Stale DS.com I, I helped start Stale DS website. The waters of Mormon Facebook group started out as a Stale DS Facebook group that I started. I brought Dan Witherspin on to do Mormon Matters podcast like and then I got excommunicated. And then I saw people like Thomas McConkey and Patrick Mason and Spencer Fluman and a bunch of white guys become like the new figureheads of progressive Mormonism. But it's been really, really interesting just in the past year or two to see Jennifer Finlayson Fife, Julie Dazevedo Hanks and and others become in many ways the modern face of progressive Mormonism. But that's also led to sort of desnat reactions and just, you know, they've become in many ways the new targets of ultra orthodox conservative and I guess, you know, they, they may or may not face the day of reckoning. I know Julie, Julie Hanks's husband's is the bishop and yeah. And jff Jennifer seems safe because she's still faithful in reward. But they're gonna get more and more pressure and it's interesting to see women rising up as the leaders of progressive Mormonism and there's. There might be backlash.
Larissa Kindred [02:15:47] I think so.
John Dehlin [02:15:48] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:15:49] But what they're doing is so, so important. I mean for church members to have someone saying this that's faithful, I think is, is just really because if they left, all of their credibility would be gone. And I'm not saying they should stay. That's completely up to them. But I'm just saying I think it's really important that we have people that are in the church who are saying the messages they're saying. Because it's.
Larissa Kindred [02:16:15] I do think it's interesting that this, like, the rise of kind of like the progressive Mormon women is coming from the mental health field, you know, except for Natasha. Yeah. Well, you know what? And this, this is my own hot take. So I don't. I don't know if this is. If people will think this is okay. But, you know, I think Natasha, we. We actually really followed closely her excommunication. And it was very. It affected me. It was very upsetting to me because I was so into these women that were, you know, like, teaching good mental health principles, teaching women to embrace their sexuality. And so it was very upsetting for me to watch the church go after Natasha. Hello, Helfer. Because I was like, no, these are. These are the people that I feel like are healing me, that are, like, helping me to, like, you know, heal from some of the wrongs of the church. And are you going to take this person down? And I know that Natasha is. I mean, Julie Hanks and Jennifer Finlayson Fife are fantastic, but they also are like, they look like nice, traditional Mormon women like that. I think that they are careful in how, you know, I mean, I think. I know that they say things that ruffle feathers. And I know Julie Hanks especially gets a lot of hate online. And there's people that are like, whenever someone leaves the church, I guarantee you they've been following Julie Hanks, you know, like, they'll kind of pin it on her. But I sometimes I wonder, like, was Natasha kind of singled out because she was. Had a stronger personality because she wasn't a nice, sweet, like, relief society woman. And she. And she said the thing and she said it strongly. And then they were like, you. You have to go. Because. Was she saying something different than what Julie Hanks and Jennifer Finlay sim5 say?
John Dehlin [02:17:55] She didn't keep sweet enough.
Larissa Kindred [02:17:57] She didn't keep sweet enough.
Margi Dehlin [02:17:58] And this is direct and challenging.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:00] Yes. And this is. This is like classic, like the stereotyping women into, like, feminazis. Right. Is that, like, you start speaking up and they're like, oh, she's irrational or she, you know, too aggressive or so I don't know. Again, this is my. This is my own hot take. And I think I love Jennifer Finlayson Fife and I love Julie Hanks. I love what they're doing. But yeah, that's. But I Do think it's very interesting that progressive Mormon women are coming at this from a mental health perspective, because I think it speaks to how much women in the church have suffered and want to find healing and to fix these things that have happened.
John Dehlin [02:18:41] I mean, the great threat to Mormonism is the awakening of their women. And so the church.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:47] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:18:48] Historically been more terrified of feminism than anything.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:51] Well, the church. The church functions on the backs of women doing invisible work, you know, and there was. So we're both kind of involved in ex Mormon Twitter, which is a jungle. I mean, it's wild. But it's also good because we. I really like interacting with other ex Mormons. It's been very therapeutic. But there was one time there was kind of an argument going on and people were talking about how women, you know, like, don't have power and authority in the church. And a guy who was. Who was active lds, he said, he said, that's not true. Women in my ward are doing everything. And so. And everybody was like, like, kind of jumped on him and they were like, I know. That's the problem is that they are doing everything. They're teaching all the classes and they're doing the things and they're planning the activities, but they don't have a chance to be autonomous and they don't have a chance to influence the organization. And so then are you really, like, is this really feminism or are they just being used, Exploited? Yeah, they are just. Are they. Their work just being exploited by the organization?
John Dehlin [02:19:54] So we'll end on this question. Should the church be worried? With the rise of Julie Hanks and Jennifer Finlayson Fife and their influence. I don't want to put a target on their back, but. But the church always hates anyone gaining a following, including other general authorities like Paul Dunn or even Uchtdorf. Right. But especially if women.
Larissa Kindred [02:20:16] I'm sure it's a concern. Do you think it's a concern?
Jeff Kindred [02:20:19] I think they've got lots of things to be concerned about.
Larissa Kindred [02:20:21] That's right. But they're well educated.
Jeff Kindred [02:20:26] I think that is one of them, though, for sure. But I think they've got lots of things to be concerned about.
John Dehlin [02:20:31] Do you think. Do you think many women who follow these other women that following progressive Mormon women is probably highly correlated with an eventual loss of faith?
Jeff Kindred [02:20:44] I think it may not always lead there, but I think that it is.
Larissa Kindred [02:20:51] I think it's very hard to stay in the church if you really, really understand systems of oppression. Because I think that you start understanding that this, this is very structural. It Goes very deep. And so, yeah, I think it's really hard. But at the same time, I want to say that they always are. Like, it's not my job to tell you to stay in the church or not. It's my job to help you be a better person and to develop yourself as an individual. And so I know that they're not trying to do something, and I think that they have found a place where they have purpose in the church and it's functional and it's. And it's good for them. So I think they're doing really good work. But. But I do. I think that it's. I think once you start cluing into these types of things, you start to say, like, women are not well represented. Women don't have. Do women have full body autonomy in the church? Do women. You know, like, these are all things that are very deeply rooted in the
Jeff Kindred [02:21:50] church, and that quickly leads into the sexual dysfunction that. That I think was such a huge issue.
Larissa Kindred [02:21:58] Yeah. Identifying, recognizing.
Jeff Kindred [02:22:00] And they were the ones who put us on that path. I mean.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:03] Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff Kindred [02:22:04] For sure.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:04] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:22:05] To be able to recognize that.
John Dehlin [02:22:07] Well, I'll send out Myla.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:09] Julie.
John Dehlin [02:22:09] Julie Hanks is a friend. We've led several mixed retreats together.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:14] They're fantastic. Yeah, they're just great.
John Dehlin [02:22:16] I just saw Jennifer Finlayson Fife at a faith again Whatever conference with Fiona Givens, and they even had Carolyn Pearson up there.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:24] Oh, nice.
John Dehlin [02:22:24] Like, be. You know, go, go, Julie. Go, Jennifer.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:31] They're doing. They're doing good work.
John Dehlin [02:22:32] They're doing the Lord's work.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:33] Yeah, I. I think so.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:35] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:35] And whether. Whether people stay or whether they go, they are teaching women and men how to develop and be better people.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:42] And.
Larissa Kindred [02:22:44] Yeah, so. So, yeah, I think. I think they're doing a good work.
John Dehlin [02:22:46] Work. All right. All right. Well, that concludes part two of our interview with Larissa and Jeff Kindred. And come right back for part three. We're going to be talking about breast cancer, faith challenges, LGBT child, and most importantly, sexual dysfunction that's tied to porn, to masturbation, to your cancer diagnosis. That's going to be probably the. Maybe the major theme for part three. And then hopefully some healing and how you. And some sexual empowerment.
Larissa Kindred [02:23:18] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:23:18] Female sexual empowerment that hopefully will. And some deconstruction. Yeah, hopefully has a happy ending.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:24] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:23:25] Yeah,
Margi Dehlin [02:23:28] I think so.
Jeff Kindred [02:23:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:28] All right, well, thanks, guys. And Margi, it's just so lovely to have you. Thank you.
Larissa Kindred [02:23:33] Yeah, thank you.
John Dehlin [02:23:33] You enjoyed today.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:34] I have.
John Dehlin [02:23:35] You couldn't say no. So, I mean, you have to say yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:39] No. Thank you for that, though.
John Dehlin [02:23:44] I know you loved it. All right, thanks, everyone, and come on right back for part three of this amazing interview. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, and come right back for part three. Take care, everybody.
Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1686
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin, and we are so excited for part three of what I believe is another epic and really important Mormon Stories podcast episode with Larissa and Jeff Kindred. And as this is part three, I'll just give a quick recap of parts one and two. Please pause, go watch, and listen to those, and then come back. But we talked about Jeff and Larissa's Mormon upbringing in Utah, and Larissa's was particularly noteworthy in the Mormon Stories library because she is of Japanese American descent. Her great grandparents came here from Japan. And we talked about growing up as a biracial Japanese American in Utah county in the past couple decades, but we talked about them finding each other, getting married. Jeff, of course, served a mission. Larissa followed the Mormon path in many ways, but, you know, that was kind of part one. And then part two has been about their marriage and. And specifically how they ultimately became progressive Mormons. Jeff going to med school and Jeff and Larissa having fertility problems and then adopting three biracial children who are black. And what that was like raising. Raising black children as a biracial couple in the Mormon Church. And what it led to was Larissa becoming more and more. Both of them becoming more and more sympathetic to causes around race. But also one of the, again, really valuable parts of. Of part two was Larissa talking about her feminist awakening both before and after her marriage. And as Jeff also became sympathetic to many of these progressive social causes, he was in a bishopric for seven years and then in a Stake High Council. So you see this couple in Tennessee becoming more and more socially progressive and religiously progressive. And we ended part two of yesterday's episode with them kind of teetering in their membership during COVID trying to decide how they're going to remain Mormon and. And starting to feel like they still believed in the church. Ish. But, you know, was. Were the Mormon people their people, as they experienced many Mormons around them opposing, like, the Black Lives Matter movement or expressing concern about calls for better social justice with African Americans and women and minorities. So today we're going to be covering several key themes. They end up talking about having an LGBTQ son. We're going to be talking about their faith journeys. We're going to be talking about Larissa's cancer diagnosis and how that affected them. But I think a major theme for today is going to be how, as a result of. Of Larissa's cancer diagnosis and treatment, how that led to kind of a laser focus on what they've described as sexual dysfunction. We referred earlier to kind of masturbation, kind of topics within Mormonism. We cover that in almost every Mormon episode because that's a part of. Of almost everyone's Mormon journey. But we talked a little bit, a little bit about guilt and shame and masturbation previously. And that along with issues of marital sexual shame and sexual dysfunction, pornography use and masturbation are going to be front and center to today's episode. And so I guess we'll give a tiny bit of a content warning, which just is that we going to be talking about sex and marriage. And so please monitor for yourself and for anyone who's watching or listening that, you know, that's what we're going to be talking about today. So that's my opening disclaimer and introduction. Welcome back for day two. Jeff and Larissa, thanks for joining us and for being willing to talk about something so sensitive but so important.
Larissa Kindred [00:04:07] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we're glad to be here.
John Dehlin [00:04:10] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:04:10] It was a good recap, by the way. That's good memory.
John Dehlin [00:04:12] Okay, well, my brain's foggy because it's the morning, but I just had some coffee. Margi will be joining us later as well, so we're looking forward to have Margi jump back in.
Larissa Kindred [00:04:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:23] All right, so. So as we left it last time, you guys were wondering whether the Mormon people were your people.
Larissa Kindred [00:04:29] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:04:29] Not because you didn't love them or, you know, value them, but just because you saw. Yeah, maybe some of the. Socially there's social positions not being. Not conforming with yours, but maybe not conforming with your understanding of. Of Christianity. I don't know.
Larissa Kindred [00:04:46] And we, you know, we, we really loved our ward, so. So we, you know, this is not individual people or it wasn't even like we don't connect with our ward or our state because we have still. I think we still have good relationships with those people. But yeah, it was kind of just generally, are these our people? And you know, the church always says that they are, that they don't have any political affiliation, but it doesn't feel like that. You know, it's sometimes it doesn't feel like there is a lot of space.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:18] Maybe.
Larissa Kindred [00:05:19] Maybe more so now, but it doesn't always feel like there's a lot of space for people with different belief, you know, beliefs that are not conservative. So, yeah, I think we were. That's where we were in 2020 is really feeling like, is this a space that feels like we're supported and understood in?
Jeff Kindred [00:05:40] And then we hit the End of the year. And that's when we had the breast cancer diagnosis, which was a big, I think, a big catalyst in our progress.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:05:51] Should we start. Should we start there?
Larissa Kindred [00:05:52] Yeah, let's start there.
John Dehlin [00:05:53] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:05:54] Yeah. So, yeah, it was the end of 2020, and just when you thought 2020 couldn't get any worse. Yeah, we had this, like, huge blow. And So I was 39 at the time, so I was not having, you know, routine mammograms yet. And I was just wrestling on the ground one day with my little boy, who was at the time, he was almost 8 years old. And so we were just, like, being rowdy and wrestling, and he just kind of elbowed me, like, really hard, like, right in the boob. And I was just like, oh, ow. It just hurts so bad. And then it was. It hurt for a few days after. And so I was just, like, kind of feeling it and, like, how this hurts so bad. And while I was, you know, feeling it, I was like, I think there's something in there. Like, it feels like there's a lump or, you know, something. And. And, you know, Jeff checked it, and he. He was like, you might. It might be like a hematoma, because he really kind of rallied me hard,
Jeff Kindred [00:06:53] and we couldn't believe that we'd never. Never felt it before. That was the.
Larissa Kindred [00:06:56] Cause it was kind of substantial.
Jeff Kindred [00:06:57] Yeah, it was pretty substantial.
Larissa Kindred [00:06:59] And so, yeah, so I made an appointment with my OB gyn and, you know, she checked it, and she was like, yeah, there's definitely something in there, but it's. It's so, you know, so unlikely that there would be a concern. I don't have a family history of breast cancer. And so she said it's most likely a fibroadenoma, which is just kind of a fibrous tissue. Or is it like a kind of a cyst type thing?
Jeff Kindred [00:07:26] Yeah, well, yeah, it's just a common breast lump to feel that's made up of just fibrous tissue, but it's not cancerous.
Larissa Kindred [00:07:34] So she said, you know, just to be safe, we're just gonna send you to get a mammogram, and then they're gonna ultrasound it. And so, you know, then I went to a radiology place, and they did my mammogram. And while I was there, they said, oh, you may not know this, but you have very fibrous breast tissue. And that's because I have not ever been pregnant. So they. This is a little, like, I don't know, anatomy lesson. But when women are pregnant, and then they produce milk, their breast tissue gets fattier and so they have less. It's the fibrous tissue that can be more conducive to cancer. And so I didn't know that that actually puts me at a slightly higher risk for breast cancer because I've never been pregnant before. So anyway, yeah, so she was like, oh, you do have very fibrous breast tissue, but, you know, you're 39. I'm in an age group that's high, very unlikely, you know, to have breast cancer. And so this whole time I was like, it's, it's fine. And I feel like there's kind of a big to do happening and it's going to be fine, you know. And so, yeah, then, so they did the mammogram and then they ultrasounded it. And the doctor that ultrasounded it, he said, he said this is, this, whatever is in there is 4 cm. So it's about the size of a ping pong ball. So. So it was pretty substantial. And he said, you know, we just have to biopsy this just to be safe. So then I waited a couple of weeks and I went to have a biopsy on it, which is terrible if, if anybody's had a biopsy. It is, it's just terrible. It was like such a terrible experience because you have to be awake for it. And it's just, it was just kind of.
Jeff Kindred [00:09:15] And then she bled for. Remember like a day after.
Larissa Kindred [00:09:17] Yeah. And then it would, I kind of had this issue where it wouldn't stop bleeding. So I had this like huge like bruise like all over my side. And it was, it was there for a little while anyways, so that was not very pleasant. And then. Yeah, I just, I waited a couple of weeks and I was driving home from a school activity with my daughter. My 12 year old daughter was in the car with me one day and I, and she. And I got a phone call and it came through like through the Bluetooth on my car and I saw that it was my OB GYN's office and I'm so glad I did this because my daughter's just sitting right next to me in the car. And I thought, like, I better not answer this through the Bluetooth, you know, Like, I better, I better pick this one up and put it to my ear. So, yeah, so it was my ob GYN and she said, you have breast cancer. And it just, I mean, it just was like I felt like time stopped. I was just so shocked to hear that. And I've never had any health Problems. I've never been hospitalized. I just am extremely healthy. And so it just was a total shock. And so then I was just like, okay, okay. Like, she was giving me some information. She said, you know, like, we'll talk tomorrow. Cause it was in the evening. And then I just was trying to act normal because my daughter was in the car with me. And so we. You know, I'm just like, it's fine. You know, just keeping it in. And then I went home and told Hazel, you know, go inside and then send dad out. And so then Jeff came out to the car, and I told him that I had breast cancer. And then I. And then I had, like, a full meltdown and probably, like, a panic attack. But anyways, so, yeah, that's how. That's how this came about. So it was. It was just out of the blue. It was just so wild. It was. It was crazy.
John Dehlin [00:11:03] And that's on top of a lot already. So. Yeah, that must have. I can't imagine.
Margi Dehlin [00:11:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:11:09] I'm so sorry.
Larissa Kindred [00:11:10] Yeah, it was crazy. So, yeah, so we kind of started, you know, going through. You. You do. You have a million appointments, you know, and I have. Then I have an oncologist, and I also have a breast surgeon. And so we kind of started putting things together to figure out what was the right treatment plan, because it was. It was large, and so it was invasive cancer. Like, that means it had spread outside of the duct, which is where they normally will form. But they didn't think that it had spread into my lymph nodes, which is good, because the lymph nodes are what spread it to the rest of your body. So, anyways, yeah, so we were just kind of waiting and kind of figuring out what the right treatment plan is. And so, yeah, it was just a really, really emotional time for me, though, because I just. I really felt like it changed, you know, how I thought of myself, because I thought, like, oh, I'm young, and I'm healthy, and I'm vibrant and. And I. I think after that, I started feeling like, no, I'm not. I'm. I'm just. I'm sad. I'm a sad person with cancer. You know, it kind of robs you of that feeling of, like, youthfulness or I just. So it was. It was a really time for me because I really. I was like, I'm. I'm a person with cancer now. And so it's hard to not let this diagnosis define you, because it does. It really feels defining. So.
John Dehlin [00:12:34] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:12:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:12:36] Well, that could be its own episode so, yeah, yeah, I'm so sorry. But. But, yeah, so. So I guess it's one thing to receive a cancer diagnosis, it's another thing to receive it when you're in the middle of a faith crisis in a high demand religion, and you're trying to. And your husband's in a high leadership calling after you just got released from the Relief Society presidency and you've got three small, biracial, adopted kids. That's a lot.
Larissa Kindred [00:13:10] It was a lot.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:11] So how did this play into kind of your Mormon journey as it was progressing?
Larissa Kindred [00:13:16] So I think. I think the interesting thing about it is that. And this. This is something that kind of makes me feel sad, but I think that this was maybe something that made me feel like I could really take up space and prioritize myself. And I think that this was kind of a turning point for me and how I approached just my life and who I was, who I was in the church, because, you know, I. I felt like I have. I have cancer right now, and so everybody has to revolve around me right now. And I'd spent so much of my life feeling like I have to do everything for the kids and I got to do my calling perfect, and I've got to, you know, like, be like, Miss Perfect for Jeff. And so I. I just. I kind of, like got into this mode where I was like, no, it's. It's. It's about me right now. Everybody. Everyone has to revolve around me right now. I have cancer. You know, like, I need. This is. This is about me right now. And I think that it. It's sad that it took having cancer to do this, but I think it really helped me to kind of find my voice. And, you know, like, people are asking me to do things or help with things, and I was just like, no, no, I'm not doing that. You know, and this is. This is how we kind of, like, should be functioning anyways. But I had not been up to that point.
John Dehlin [00:14:28] Can I. I just say this? Just an observation. The word anti Mormon gets bandied about a lot of. I can't think of a more anti Mormon thing, meaning going against the grain of Mormonism than a woman, a mother in a home, saying, number one, saying no.
Larissa Kindred [00:14:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:48] And number two, to the family needing to revolve around the woman.
Larissa Kindred [00:14:52] Like, that's right.
John Dehlin [00:14:53] That's truly anti Mormon.
Jeff Kindred [00:14:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:55] Because that's never at any point. Right? Yeah, I don't know that.
Larissa Kindred [00:15:00] No, I agree. I agree with you.
John Dehlin [00:15:02] What the family needs to revive around the revolve around the woman. What?
Larissa Kindred [00:15:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:07] That's almost apostate. It's almost apostate.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:09] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:15:10] Well, obviously, that's where it led us. So. Yeah. So, I mean, like, we go through treatment, and I ended up not having to do chemo, which was huge, but I did end up having a double mastectomy, and that was. That. Yeah, that kind of could be its own. Like, I mean, I could talk for hours about what happened to me during treatment, but I think the takeaway from it is that I really feel like this pushed me in a space where I was like, I am not doing this anymore. And when you kind of have a. A brush with mortality, it also makes you think, like, what am I doing with my life? You know, And I have, you know, like, if I want to have a job or if I want to build something special, which is something that, you know, we had talked about yesterday, then what am I doing and what am I waiting for? And, you know, and then I. I'm somebody that sometimes a conflict will happen, and I'll kind of avoid it, you know, Like, I won't say anything, and I'll just be mad about it, but I won't stand up for myself. And so during this time, too, I was like. I was kind of, like, a little unhinged. Like, I was just like, I'm. I'm tired of not saying things. I'm tired of just, like, being palatable for everybody else. And so, you know, things were. Certain things were said, and I was calling it out, and I was, like, telling people. I don't think I was, like, super aggressive. I just think that it was. I just felt like, no, I need to take up space. Space right now. And so I'm going to tell people how I feel, and I'm going to, you know, just shape this experience to protect myself and my space. And I think that that really put me in a space. I mean, I think it helped me to, like, get into a space where I was like, no, this is. I have to make changes in my life. I have to do something different. So it could be.
John Dehlin [00:16:53] Jeff, I don't know if you want to comment on this, but, like, once a Mormon woman starts to find her voice and learn to say no, even if. Even if. Let's just say a husband isn't overtly, you know, sexist or misogynistic, if they've grown up only in a patriarchal system and all they've known are traditional patriarchal families, a wife or a mother gaining her voice and saying, no. And starting to. Speaker mind can feel very upsetting and disturbing and like, you know, even for someone that cares about women and wants equality. Is that right?
Jeff Kindred [00:17:40] Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think it was all. It was during this time that we. I think we identified some of these issues in our marriage, but starting to say, what can we do to address these? Which is an ongoing thing. But I think that that was, again, a catalys in us looking at ourselves and realizing that, hey, this is. This is ingrained in us. I mean, this was. This was a. This was like built in to our. To our relationship and our marriage from the beginning via, you know, the church. Because that's what. That's what we. That was just the norm.
Larissa Kindred [00:18:18] Yeah. And I think it's important to note that, you know, like, you can have really nice good people in patriarchal systems. The system is bad, but, you know, you can have good people that are in that system. Cause, you know, sometimes we talk about like, you know, like, there's patriarchy in, you know, infused into marriages. That doesn't mean your husband's a misogynist. You know, it just means that these are, you know, ideas and structures that we've kind of internalized. So I think there's a lot of really, really great guys that may not understand that, you know, how this has affected them. And, you know, women are complicit in it on some level. And so I think that it's important to note that you can be a really, really great guy and a good husband, but you still might have internalized some of those things. And if that's what we found in our marriage.
Jeff Kindred [00:19:02] Yes, absolutely. And I think that you don't even. You don't even recognize it. You know, you can be a part of it and not even realize that you are part of that, just because, especially as men, because we're benefiting from it. And so to us, it's not uncomfortable at all. It's just. It's very comfortable to live in that. To live in that world and in that universe.
Larissa Kindred [00:19:24] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:19:24] So it's easier to not. To not want to fight it because you don't see it until you tell someone brings it to your attention and helps to point it out. And Larissa does that really well.
John Dehlin [00:19:36] Good. You need more direct communication. Mormonism, so full of passive aggressiveness.
Larissa Kindred [00:19:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:19:42] I think stuffing and compartmentalizing and saying, we just need to get better at direct communication.
Larissa Kindred [00:19:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So this kind of leads us. So there's two kind of major catalike Things that, that come because my breast cancer experiences. Number one is I like, you know, I'm recovering from a double mastectomy and I was like, I'm going to go back to school. So I had been really like trying to decide like, what should I do and should I do like a little thing or volunteer here. And I just, I think I really. It kind of like zeroed in for me and I was like, no, I'm going to go back to school. I need to like, get whatever training I need to and then I want to actually, like, build something that's special for me. So anyway, so I. That was one thing is I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to go back to school and our family can help support me and we can work as a team so that I also can be prioritized. So that's number one. And then number two is that post breast cancer I have a couple of different issues going on with my body. So first of all, I'm on medication for the next 10 years, you know, cancer medication. And that's. I have to take that because there's always a concern that there could have been spare cancer cells that got loose in your body and so on this medication that kind of starves out or kills cancer cells. And I have to take it for 10 years because I did get breast cancer very young. And so like, they just, you know, like, I have a lot of years left that for to have a recurrence. And so they put me on this medication. But it is, it affects my hormones, so it gives me some, you know, menopause type issues. So this starts causing me some sexual dysfunction type issues, issues with arousal and. But I also have a kind of a bad association now with my body because I'm now associating my body and even, you know, my breasts with cancer. So, you know, normally this is some, this is something that, you know, women, you know, we equate this with our sexuality. And so now I'm having a psychological connection that's different than what it was before. So now my body is, you know, like, when we're trying to like, be intimate with each other. Now I'm thinking I'm equating this with cancer. And so I start having a lot of issues and, and it was just really, really difficult because I think post breast cancer I also, because I felt like cancer kind of almost robbed me of like my youth and vitality. Once I was done with my treatment, I really was like, I want to get this back. I Want to feel like, no, this didn't take that away from me. I still want to be, like, vibrant and sexual and, like, this is who I want to be. I want to embrace this part of me. And so. But my body isn't cooperating both physically and psychologically. I'm having issues with this. So we decide to go. So we go to therapy together. So we see a therapist that's a marriage therapist, but also does sex therapy. And we see this. We see him separately first, and then. And then we start doing sessions together as well. And so. So this. This ends up being a huge. Maybe like the. The last final thing that, like, pushes us over the edge, and it's a really big thing for Jeff. So. So, yeah. Yeah, maybe you want to start and just talk about yours.
Pornography, Sexual Shame, and Healing
Jeff Kindred [00:23:18] So, yeah. So I'm going to backtrack a little here. And I actually took some notes last night when I was thinking about this because I want to make sure that I touch on some important points. So when I had mentioned before, back when I was young, about masturbation, and when that started, I didn't even know it was masturbation, and it wasn't sexual. And then even as I got into my 12 or 13, then it becomes kind of a sexual thing. Where in your thoughts. But I still didn't realize this was something bad. You know, the church mentioned masturbation, but nobody tells you what it is, so I didn't know that's what I'm doing. So when I figured that out, and I was probably 14 when I realized, oh, I'm masturbating, and then you get the shame and the guilt associated with it. And that's a real interesting thing to me in the way that you're doing the same thing. But now all of a sudden you're feeling this guilt and shame associated with it. And I think that was the beginning of this guilt and shame cycle. And then along with it is the anxiety, because you do it and you're like, okay, I'm never doing that again. You know, that's the last time. And then it goes by a couple of weeks, and then you do it again. You feel terrible about it. And then again, do you go and tell the bishop, or do you just rationalize and say, no, I'm not going to do this anymore. And that's the cycle that I think that. That. That I was in. And the other thing about it, no one talks about it, so you feel like you're all alone in this. And I don't know, John, if you can Relate to that. But man, I just felt all alone in that I'm the only one having this issue. What's wrong with me? Why am I like a deviant or, you know, something weird? Am I a sex fanat or, you know, like a nymphomaniac? I didn't know and I don't have anyone to help me navigate this. No one talks about it and you can't bring it up to your parents. I mean, and so all you hear is the bad things about masturbation. So every time I'm hearing this in conference or in talks, I know they're talking to me and I'm the one, you know. And you think you're the only one because again, no one ever talks about it.
John Dehlin [00:25:13] I think there's at least two really unhelpful correlations that are made within Mormonism and maybe in broader orthodox religious contexts. One is that, well, within Mormonism, sexual sins are equated as being next to murder in seriousness.
Jeff Kindred [00:25:32] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:25:32] So there's this amping up of the, the stakes of the, of the severity of anything sexual. So I think that's problem number one. And then, and then I think problem number two is in so many Christian contexts I've seen masturbation, especially if you view images in association with masturbation, which I think is pretty common, it's viewed as comparable to infidelity, as cheating.
Jeff Kindred [00:25:59] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:25:59] And so you basically think if I'm not a murderer, I'm. I'm pretty much an adulterer.
Jeff Kindred [00:26:05] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:26:05] And then how severe? That's really severe. But, but in your mind that's what
Jeff Kindred [00:26:10] you're thinking and feeling and you're living with that as like a 15, 16 year old kid, you know, and then, and then. Yes, and then sexual images start to go along with that. And in looking at things online and you know, staying up late to watch the HBO show or whatever it was. And that also becomes an issue because I think this is something that doesn't get talked about enough, is the anxiety around that. You know, I really felt like there is this anxiety with seeing these images that, you know, it's bad, but you're doing it. And I think that creates a pattern that then perpetuates. And again, I think this is really common in the church, even though we don't ever talk about it. I think the anxiety associated with sex causes its own sexual dysfunction and problems. And we'll talk about that more. So then it goes on. And I have intermittent issues with, you know, no issues after my mission for quite a While. And then again. And then you feel terrible right after that happens. I mean, and then there's intermittent issues between. Then I meet Larissa. And this was when I was doing therapy, you know, and talking through this. Our therapist was just. He just wanted me to lay all this out there, you know, everything you remember. And so I remember when I met Larissa and I went to my journal, I'd been like, keeping this journal and like, you know, trying to. Trying to like, put on there, like, how. How can I do this? Like, what. What am I doing? Like, why can't God take this from me? And. And I tore those pages out. Like. Like this chunk of my journal is gone because I didn't want anyone to ever know this was a problem, you know, you again. I'm like, this is never going to do this again. This is so. So I tear that out and I, like, got rid of it. I. I like cut it up and made sure that no one would ever find that Larissa would never know that. And. And that to portray this person that the church wanted me to be and that I wanted to be for the church. And so because of that, we have to look this part. And so we're shoving down our sexuality, thinking that that's Satan, that sexuality is Satan, and that is Satan tempting me and pulling me into this thing. And it's only through the gospel and through God that I'm going to get out of it. Which is so. Again, it's so ironic as we'll talk later. But. So it went through like that, and there was intermittent issues. And then in medical school, Larissa had found out that I'd been looking at this. And so I went to the bishop
John Dehlin [00:28:45] like you do, looking at pornography. Pornography Sometimes.
Jeff Kindred [00:28:48] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:28:49] Yeah. Okay.
Larissa Kindred [00:28:50] So this is the first time, like, that I'm involved, that I know this is a thing. And it wasn't handled well. I mean, I mean, we didn't handle it, but. But this is. This is the thing that's so hard, is that we are not taught. We have. So we have almost no sex education. And there's so much fear based, you know, information about pornography. And so this is very, very scary to me because I don't know what this means. Does it mean that I'm not good enough? Like, is it cause you're not attracted to me? I have no real good information.
Jeff Kindred [00:29:26] And it's very traumatic, I mean, extremely traumatic, Right. For LDS women to find this out about their husband who looks this part in this role. And I feel like I am that person. But this is just like this side of me that Satan's trying to pull me into. And I mean, it's traumatic.
John Dehlin [00:29:44] And when you say you didn't handle it well, do you want to explain kind of what not handling it well means from your perspective?
Larissa Kindred [00:29:51] I mean, I think that we went into like a mode of. I know people will talk about this where, like, the spouse kind of becomes the warden. So it's like, you know, like, I'll have the password to your phone now and, you know, like, so I think that we didn't know any other way to handle it. So I was like, pretty hardcore. And I'm not proud of this, but I know I said to Jeff, like, if you, if this happens again, then, like, I will leave you.
Jeff Kindred [00:30:18] And that's, that's a lot.
Larissa Kindred [00:30:20] And I don't, I don't like that I said that, but I, I just. This is what I had learned about that pornography will ruin your marriage. And, you know, like, it will make him become like a sexual deviant and then he won't be a safe person. And so these are the messages that I had got about pornography. And so it was very, very scary. And that, that, that's. So I took a very hard line.
John Dehlin [00:30:42] Every once in a while, I'll meet a couple where the. Let's just say the wife leaves the husband. And by the way, women can look at porn and masturbate too.
Jeff Kindred [00:30:50] But.
Larissa Kindred [00:30:50] Yeah, absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:30:51] But, but, you know, I'll meet, I'll meet a couple where the wife says, oh, my husband looks at porn and masturbation sometimes. So I'm leaving him.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:59] And I'm gonna go find a man who, who doesn't do that. And I'm like, okay, you're gonna go on this divorce, singles market, and you're thinking 30s and 40s and find a guy that never does this.
Larissa Kindred [00:31:14] Right.
John Dehlin [00:31:14] Like, if he never does this, I would wonder whether, whether or not he's into women, first of all. But second of all, like, if your husband is like hard working and honest and a good dad and a good provider and in every other way honest, but he's just got this. You're really going to trade that some guy that tells you he doesn't do it.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:37] Who you don't know, and you don't know what his history is. Like, it's really, really heartbreaking to see this be viewed as a, as a marriage ender.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:47] When we know it's so pervasive. Bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents are doing it, and then, you know, telling their parishioners or missionaries that they need to repent for it.
Larissa Kindred [00:31:58] Like, yes, it's.
John Dehlin [00:31:59] It's. It's almost ubiquitous. I hate to. I'm not trying to make excuses for anything.
Larissa Kindred [00:32:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:32:04] I'm just saying my experience is it's well over 50%, if not 90%.
Jeff Kindred [00:32:10] I bet it's in the 90s.
Larissa Kindred [00:32:13] And we'll talk about this more, but I think as we're in therapy together and we, like, really dig into, like, what's going on. Why is porn use so pervasive and so hidden in the church? What we come to understand is that, like, if you're repressing sexuality, that's. That doesn't mean you have good sexual health. You know, like, so, like, whether you're repressing it or whether you're. You have compulsive sexual behaviors, those are both. Both ways to. That you're coping with anxiety around sexuality. So none of that's brilliant. Yeah. So either way, you know, and this is also a Jennifer Finlayson 5 thing. She says, like, whether you're anorexic or bulimic. Those are both unhealthy or obese. Yes, they're unhealthy. It's still a. It's still a bad. A bad approach.
John Dehlin [00:32:56] Obesity or anorexia, bulimia. Both are bad.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:59] That.
John Dehlin [00:32:59] And.
Larissa Kindred [00:33:00] Yeah, but.
John Dehlin [00:33:00] But, Larissa, you. You came by your reactions to Jeff completely honest. Honestly.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:33:06] Because, like, there's two things that Mormon church hates in the modern era. It's. It's LGBTQ people, you know, LGBTQ behavior and pornography and masturbation. And so you would have been, from a child, constantly hearing how evil and dark and bad pornography is.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:25] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:33:26] And so you would have been. You felt like your marriage was in jeopardy.
Jeff Kindred [00:33:29] Well. And no one ever talks about having issues, so you don't realize that. Again, not just me, but the wives, too. You don't realize that this is. It's only my husband. Like, how come my husband has this issue and no one else? Because. Right. I mean.
Larissa Kindred [00:33:43] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:33:43] You just don't see it. So you just think that you're alone. It's probably a lot better now. I mean, I know it's a lot better now. Or at least. Yeah, more people are aware of it, but it's still a huge, huge, huge, huge problem.
John Dehlin [00:33:54] So I just have to say one. One other quick thing. We just did an interview with a woman who recently returned home from her mission and lost her faith. While she was a missionary, her mission president was writing her for, like, wearing. She wore like exercise pants during a p. Day or, you know, just. Just really benign things. And she was just wracked with guilt over, like, not dressing perfectly. She comes home from her mission and finds out that the mission president had a policy where if he found missionary, male missionaries who were masturbating, he told them, hey, as long as you don't do it more than once a week, you're fine. Because on the one hand, the women were being held to super high standards just for how they dressed and shamed for it. But there was this secret behind the scenes. Hey, Elder, if you just do it once a week, don't beat yourself up about it. It's, you know, because that's how ubiquitous it was.
Jeff Kindred [00:34:47] Double stuff.
John Dehlin [00:34:47] If the church sends home every missionary that masturbates, they'll have no more missionaries.
Larissa Kindred [00:34:51] Right?
John Dehlin [00:34:52] Or almost no more missionaries. Maybe five.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:34:54] You know.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:34:55] Okay. They're just.
Larissa Kindred [00:34:56] They're shoving it down.
John Dehlin [00:34:57] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:34:57] So at that time, I go to the bishop, I don't take the sacrament, which is. Which is a public shaming, you know, not taking the sacrament because there's only. I don't know of anyone who's ever not taken the sacrament for anything but sexual sin. Right? So, I mean, you can be. You can be a total asshole and be, you know, lying, cheating, stealing, embezzling money, but you can take the sacrament. But if you. But if you. If you look at porn, you don't get to take the sacrament. So I really think it is a form of public shaming. And. And. And then. And at that point, you know, everyone knows too. And that's. So that's. That is another thing. And I'm not. I'm not saying poor me in this instance. I'm just saying I think it's a bad. A bad practice.
John Dehlin [00:35:42] Were you in the bishopric or in a state high council when this happened?
Jeff Kindred [00:35:44] No, no. This was in med school. This was in medical school.
Larissa Kindred [00:35:47] So this was in our early marriage. But you were. I think you were like the executive secretary.
Jeff Kindred [00:35:50] I think I'd just been released as executive secretary at the time, so. So, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:55] So public shaming. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:35:57] Yeah. Which I think is important to recognize because I do think that that is a thing. So since that time, you know, I went a long time after that without any. And. And this is interesting, too, that I thought of as we were going through this with my counselor is there were times I'd go long periods of time and not look at anything, and I thought I was doing great at those times, but those were the times that Larissa's like, hey, are you still into me? And that's, you know, like she's feeling like I'm not into her or I'm not. And so I think that's really interesting again where we think that we're, we think we're winning this battle, but we're really just snuffing out our sexuality, which again, that's not healthy and it's going to come out in a different way at some point. I really believe that there's a double
John Dehlin [00:36:39] bind there because if you, if you just sort of like, like sometimes in a marriage a husband will stop looking at porn, but then say, well, okay, well then now my wife is responsible for all my sexuality and she just needs to be available for whenever I need something sexually. That's bad. Yeah, because it's not the wife's job to like perform on command to meet the man's sexual needs. And so that's what I thought might have happened. But what you're saying is you just shut down your sexuality so that you wouldn't ever feel the desires to masturbate and that bled over into your attractions to learn.
Jeff Kindred [00:37:19] And I think that, I think that that was part of the scrupulosity like on my mission that I just shut it down and, and just was tried to stay so busy doing that. That was a thing. But I always felt like this was. Who talks about white knuckling? JFF or Natasha Helfer? You know, you're just white knuckling this. Like it's never, it's never, it's always this like anxiety ridden thing that's always there and never. It's something that you're. Again, you think Satan is like after you or tempting you with this thing, which I think is interesting too.
Larissa Kindred [00:37:59] So, so while we're in therapy it's kind of interesting because this is all coming out with Jet, like with Jeff in his therapy. And when I'm talking to our therapist about my situation because I'm having an issue where my body isn't feeling sexually responsive at all, but I'm wanting it to be. And so he's talking to me and, and, and he's asking me about like how if I feel comfortable with my sexuality. And so I think that I was on the repression end of sexuality. And so like I, I never masturbated ever. Like I never did. I never would have thought to have done that. But I know that I grew up with the for the Strength of the Youth pamphlet that said like never arouse these feelings in Yourself or in others. And so I even remember, you know, like watching even like a romantic comedy that kind of starts making you feel tingly and thinking to myself, like, oh no, that's bad. I shouldn't have those feelings. And so I think that I had gone. So even though I've, I have, I've never looked at porn, I've never masturbated, but obviously like, I've got, I've just repressed these things. And it was really interesting because our therapist was asking me, he said, do you understand female fantasy? And I was like, I literally don't. I don't think I have any fantasies. I don't think I fantasize at all. And so he actually gave me a book to read that was really interesting about female fantasy and how social aspects influence it. But in this book she was saying that, you know, a lot of times if you're trying to be a good girl, then that's something that you will repress and so that you're actually not feeling those types of things. And our therapist, he was like, he was like, if you want to help your body to become aroused again, he's like, you might need to do something so that you can have some type of fantasy or an arousal experience. And so it, I think this starts shifting our view of, of, of pornography or, you know, and, and for women, they always said to us like, don't read like a romance novel, you know, because those can be like soft, soft core porn or whatever. But, but like now I'm in a position where I'm like, is, am I going to be in trouble if I read a romance novel? Because I need that so that I can have sex with my husband. You know, like, then you start thinking like, is this the. Is how bad is this? Like, if this is something I need to get my body to respond. So, so we start. I think I definitely. We both are in this place, but we're starting to have a better understanding about what, what pornography is. And, and, and there is this.
John Dehlin [00:40:35] There's another category called erotica, which is not pornography per se, but it's just tasteful, respectful images that help with arousal. Yeah, but we lump it all is like, yes, child porn is the same as erotica.
Larissa Kindred [00:40:48] Absolutely. Come on.
John Dehlin [00:40:49] There's a total difference there.
Larissa Kindred [00:40:50] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:40:52] So during this time, jff. I remember JFF saying this. I don't remember when I heard her say it, but she talked about true intimacy. In order to have true intimacy, you have to be willing to look yourself in the mirror and accept Yourself, the good and the bad. And if you're not willing to do that, you can never let someone else truly know you. And if you can't do that, you can't have intimacy. And so I recognized that this was a part of me that I had been hiding from Larissa, and there's reasons to hide it. And I think this is so common in the church because the consequences of bringing that out. Larissa told me she would leave me. You're in a high church calling, so you go through the repentance process, which would include probably, like, not taking the sacrament. People know you're doing something sexually, I mean, deviant, you know, something, and then you might lose your calling. You're, you know, in the church, you're always climbing this ladder. And I think that there's things, which I think is why, as Mormon men are so apt to, again, push this underground, rationalize it, move on, and then you get another calling. So you think, oh, God must be okay with me, because he gave me this calling. So obviously I'm acceptable, even though I have these, like, issues. And I also found that I would double down, and I think this, you know, there was the times that this would happen, I would double down on, we got to get to the temple more. We gotta, like, make sure we're reading, or I make sure my reading my scriptures every day. And I feel like that was kind of my own defense of, like, if I'm just doing that, then this. This will go away. Like, I'll be able to. To squelch out this. This thing, which is it not. Which is obviously not the way to do it.
John Dehlin [00:42:36] Right? Absolutely. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:39] So.
Larissa Kindred [00:42:39] So Jeff's processing all of this, and so. And so it. It comes out. So. So now. So now I'm in a situation which is very triggering for me because we had. We, you know, in our early marriage, we had gone through this porn situation. So. So I find out that Jeff has intermittently looked at porn throughout our marriage. And, you know, my first reaction was to feel, like, extremely betrayed, you know, mostly because I was like, I can't believe that you didn't tell me this. But as we start to really dig into it, and I think that we were just in such a better place. And a lot of it is because we're listening to these sexuality podcasts, and we're, you know, like, we're reading all of these things. So we just have. We just come at it from such a better place. And so I think that we approach this more from a place of, like, curiosity. And so, you know, at first I was, like, really betrayed. And I was like, I can't believe that you would lie to me, like, all of this time. And. And even for a little bit, I was just like, hey, I don't. I don't feel close to you right now, and I don't want you. Like, I don't want any, like, intimacy with you. I don't. Like, it's off the table right now.
John Dehlin [00:43:48] And that's such a problem, because if. If one spouse cuts the other off, then, number one, it just affects their intimate, their emotional intimacy and their connection, but then there's no sexual outlet for either of them.
Larissa Kindred [00:44:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:02] And that can just start more of a cycle.
Larissa Kindred [00:44:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:06] And make. Make the problematic behavior more common.
Larissa Kindred [00:44:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:11] Right.
Larissa Kindred [00:44:12] Yeah. And I do. I mean, I think there's obviously times when it's okay to say, like, I'm drawing a boundary. I don't feel safe with you, but I do. I remember, you know, I'm going through. You know, I'm post breast cancer, so I'm going through a time where I'm wanting to connect more with him, and I'm wanting to, like, dig into my sexuality. And then I was like, you know what? It's off the table. And I remember one night kind of, like, thinking about this, and I thought, like, is Jeff really untrustworthy? Or is, you know, like, does this mean that he's not trustworthy and not safe? Or is this. Is there a reason that. Is there a reason that he didn't tell me this, and how am I complicit in that? Like, why was I not a safe person for him to talk to? And why would he think that hiding this was the best option? And so I think that was like. Like a good change for me because I was like, no, I know he's safe, and we have built a good life together, but this is a thing that needs to be addressed. And so I think that kind of shifted things for us where I said, like, no, he is safe, and I know that he is trustworthy, but we. I need to understand why hiding this and lying to me was the best option. And that's when we start looking into this validation cycle of church leadership and how you are going to be continually rewarded for hiding it. Right. Because you'll get in other callings and, you know, like, you'll have more authority and you'll be put. Everyone will think that you're, like, super righteous. So there's really. There's so many rewards for just burying it and keeping it Underground, for sure.
Jeff Kindred [00:45:47] So this led to us finding the Rethinking Porn podcast. Are you familiar with that?
John Dehlin [00:45:52] No.
Jeff Kindred [00:45:52] Oh, you need to. Yeah. Link that for sure.
John Dehlin [00:45:55] Okay. Rethinking.
Jeff Kindred [00:45:57] Yeah, Rethinking porn.
Larissa Kindred [00:45:57] It's called Rethinking porn addiction.
John Dehlin [00:45:59] Okay.
Jeff Kindred [00:46:00] Oh, yeah. Rethinking porn addiction.
Larissa Kindred [00:46:01] So we found this, we found this through Jennifer Finlayson Fife. So it was just recommended by, I don't know if it was by her or somebody from her Facebook group, but it's really, really good.
Jeff Kindred [00:46:13] There's two sex therapists. One, Doug, Doug Braun, Harvey Braun. Harvey, who is really, done a lot of work. He came up with the seven principles of sexual health that Natasha Helpers done some series with him and he.
Larissa Kindred [00:46:26] So he's, he's not LDS. He's a, he's a Ph.D. psychologist and he's really like one of the foremost experts on men, I think men's sexual health. And he's California based. And then there was an, there's a Kristen Hodgson's on it. So she's an LDS sex therapist.
Jeff Kindred [00:46:42] Are you familiar?
John Dehlin [00:46:43] Yeah, for sure.
Larissa Kindred [00:46:43] Yeah, yeah, she's fantastic. And then, and then there's four LDS guys that are on this podcast and they're just kind of like, like normal LDS guys that are talking about their
Jeff Kindred [00:46:53] experiences and, and as I'm listening to them talk about their experiences growing up and, and their experiences with porn and with masturbation, I'm like, that's my story. There's tell all of them, you know, all of them have a little different story, but it's my story. And that helped me to realize that, man, this is not just me. This is like, maybe not all of us in the church, but so many of us in the church. And we all feel so alone. We're all in this issue. And that, I'm telling you, that was like a light switch to me to be like, man, I thought the church was the only thing like holding me from being like this, you know, this porn addict and come to find out that they're creating this problem with their purity culture and with the way that they have like made this thing such a problem and the anxiety around it and the guilt and the shame around it. And I'm telling you, when I, when I. That podcast, Larissa listened to it too. But I feel like it was hearing their stories was so soothing to me to know that, oh my gosh, this was. So many men in the church are having this issue and it's a church wide issue, more in the church than out of the church. Why is that? Because it's the church that's creating this problem. And then of course they're giving you a way to solve it. But it's like, man, if you take that away, why is it not such an issue other places? Why is porn so much like, I think Utah's number one. Right. And I bet if you looked at the other states, it's the ones who have the most purity culture, the most, you know, rigid Christian churches, or maybe not just Christian, but whatever churches that are rigid like that because it, it makes those things such a problem and such an issue. And I'm convinced of that 100%.
John Dehlin [00:48:41] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:48:42] So, yeah, so we're, we're realizing going through this that the church has created its own porn issue because of the high anxiety around sexuality and because of the bad information. And so it's just, I feel like it was like really mind boggling. And we're listening to these guys. Like one of them's talking about how he has had to sit outside the temple for like several of his siblings weddings because he was trying to be a good person and confess to his bishop that he had looked at porn. And so he's outside. Like he doesn't even get to be there when his siblings.
Jeff Kindred [00:49:13] His bishop was obviously the one who's taken a hard, hard line. And so, so you know how many people are in that wedding who are looking at porn, but he's outside multiple times. Right?
Margi Dehlin [00:49:23] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:49:23] It's heartbreaking.
Larissa Kindred [00:49:23] It was, it was really telling the story.
John Dehlin [00:49:26] The honest people are often the ones that are punished.
Jeff Kindred [00:49:28] Absolutely, absolutely. And shamed and guilted the most. Right. And they think that they're the worst because they're actually confessing it rather than forcing it underground. And you know, so we've thought a lot about this. Why are men in the church seeking out porn? And I really think it all goes back to, we want to portray this pure, honest, like, no, I don't have sexuality. And even the sexual intimacy with their wife, I think is very superficial or first level because you don't want people to know that you have kinks or you have, you know, you're interested in these things. And so they find that through porn. So they live their life and then they go to their private browsers and then they live this other life there. And I honestly think this is, I think it's so prevalent in the church, I really do. I think more than we even know, because I just, I just think that it is, the church makes this such an issue and it's so hard to. For men to admit it and then try and seek help. And then what does the church, they put them in their 12 step program. You probably get released from your calling. I mean, I just think there's so many. There's so many bad consequences to doing it that it's so much easier to just push it underground, either rationalize it or lie about it, which I think is the thing that happens so often.
John Dehlin [00:50:50] And part of the. And Natasha and I did an episode on a new approach to pornography and masturbation. I'll put a link to that as well.
Larissa Kindred [00:50:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:50:59] There's also this dynamic that masturbation provides a release of positive chemicals in the brain and that once you combine shame and stigmatization with some type of mechanism to relieve the suffering, that can also contribute to a downward spiral where you're. You're feeling so much guilt and shame produced by the church that the way you self medicate the shame is to masturbate, to feel better, because masturbation makes you feel better. And so that's in our, in our estimation, that's one of the reasons why the church and the way they handle it actually makes the problem worse. We, we interviewed someone recently that said that they were taught to pair Jeffrey Dahmer with masturbation. And they were taught in a Mormon context that Jeffrey Dahmer became a serial killer because he started looking at porn and masturbating.
Jeff Kindred [00:52:04] Oh, Ted Bundy.
John Dehlin [00:52:04] My.
Jeff Kindred [00:52:05] I heard that too.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:06] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:52:06] Ted Bundy's my dad. Always.
John Dehlin [00:52:08] I met Ted Bundy, not Jeffrey Dahmer.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:11] Yeah, but.
John Dehlin [00:52:11] But when you pair serial killers with, with porn and masturbation, you're just upping the, Upping the stakes, ridiculously. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:18] I mean, you're essentially saying this is what can become of you. If you're going to masturbate, you're going to be a. It's not that he was a sociopath. It's the fact that he looked at porn. That's what made him a serial killer. It's. It's just so intense.
John Dehlin [00:52:30] That's right. That's right.
Larissa Kindred [00:52:31] Yeah, It's. The messaging is so, so intense. And I think, and I know that I, I think that I listened to that podcast that you did with Natasha Helfer, and I know that she talks about eroticism, and that's something that we had. I mean, like, we have no understanding of this. And I think, you know, when I'm talking to my therapist, the therapist, and he's asked, talking to me about like, female fantasy and developing these things, I think this is the first time I start to understand that, like, everybody has different eroticism. You know, like, there's different things that are arousing to you. And I think that there are many people within the church that are kind of disgusted by their own eroticism. And it doesn't even have to be super strange or weird, but they feel like, even if they're like, oh, I really love it when my wife wears this, you know, like, outfit or whatever, you know, like, I love my wife in lingerie. Like, there. I know for a fact there are men who feel like they are gross or disgusting because they have these things where.
Jeff Kindred [00:53:26] And their wives also feel that that's gross or. Why do you even have this in your head? Right, because they're sexually repressed. And so I think that's part of it too.
Larissa Kindred [00:53:34] But. But none of us just were taught about neuroticism. And. And so we don't embrace it or. Or say, like, yeah, this is a thing, and this is how we have a conversation about it in our marriage. And, you know, that doesn't obviously, like, what we learned is that you have to be open about. You have to know who you are. Be open about who you are, and then have conversations and say, you know, like, are you okay with this? And if you're not, that's okay. Like, well, you know, like, how do we work this in or not work this in? Like, but. But there's no conversation. There's no conversation. There's no education about it. And then when you have all these, like, bad messaging and the anxiety around it, you've created a huge, huge issue. And I think it's epidemic in the church.
Jeff Kindred [00:54:13] And. And another reason that. That I know that this is epidemic is because we're on the JFF Facebook group. I don't remember. Ask a. Ask an LDS or ask a sexual therapist something.
Larissa Kindred [00:54:24] But it's a huge group. There's.
Jeff Kindred [00:54:26] Every day, there's probably 20,000 people will post for, like, give us your advice. And usually it's anonymous, but every single day it's like, I found out my husband's looking at porn. And I'm like, yeah, of course you did. Because we all are. Because this is what the church has created for us. I mean, you know, this. It's so sad. I realize it's traumatic, and I don't mean to make light of that, because it is traumatic for a female to recognize that. What bothers me so bad is where this is all coming from. And so as I went through this and we went through this podcast. And I feel like it helped Larissa a lot to understand. And she's like, is this what you have felt, like? Cause they're going back and talking about how they felt.
Larissa Kindred [00:55:04] I felt like it was heartbreaking for me because when the guy was talking about, like, sitting outside the temple multiple times, and I remember I was crying at one point and I said to you, like, is this what you've been going through in your life? And he was like, yeah, I feel like they're telling my exact story. And I mean, it was devastating for me to know that, like, you experienced this and that you felt the shame. And I didn't know I wasn't a part of it. And it just. But it just. Yeah, I feel like it really, like, made my. It made my heart break for, like, 14 year old Jeff and for 6 year old Jeff that, like, was made to feel shame about his body and his sexuality. And obviously I can also relate to this on some level as well. So it just. It really, like, put us in a place.
John Dehlin [00:55:47] Absolutely.
Jeff Kindred [00:55:47] And. And we talk about this pretty openly, but it's been a. I mean, it's been a long time.
Larissa Kindred [00:55:52] I mean, this is a process.
Jeff Kindred [00:55:53] This was definitely a process. What was going on to make it to where we're at. But this is what I can say that's also so interesting for me is after we had opened up these lines of communication, after I truly embraced who I was and let Larissa know who I was, and we did this therapy together, and we came up with an agreement, plan, and this, like, pull of looking at porn for me, and I'm not saying this is good. I'm not putting myself up on a pedestal, but I'm saying this because I know lot of people are going to say you left the church because you wanted to look at porn, but I have it that that desire, this pull that was there before is not there. And I actually.
Larissa Kindred [00:56:33] Or the compul. Like, the compulsion.
Jeff Kindred [00:56:35] Yeah, the compulsion is not there. And I really think, again, because you're in this cycle and the anxiety and all of these things around it that make this such a bigger issue. And Larissa and I now can watch, you know, some erotic. I won't call porn, but erotic.
Larissa Kindred [00:56:50] Or, like, do we want to watch something steamy? Or, like, this is.
Jeff Kindred [00:56:53] And I can go to Larissa and I can say, hey, I'm feeling like I need something more right now. And. And so it's so nice to feel like, no, we're on the same page, and I don't need to hide this sexuality that I was, you know, that she thinks I'm a deviant or some sick pervert or something like that. Right. I mean, it really is a difference when you, when you're on the same page. The other thing that I think, so interesting about this, that I don't think that I was saying the anxiety around it, and I think you develop this feedback loop, kind of what you both were alluding to when you're saying the shame and the guilt and then you masturbate and then you resolve and then the shame and the guilt and then you have the orgasm and then the shame and the guilt comes back. So you develop this feedback loop. But along with that is the anxiety. And I really think that anxiety is a big problem. And I don't have any data for this, but I bet it's a big problem with performance. Both like premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction. All these things that, I bet you are big issues that, that again, couldn't be. Can be because of the anxiety and the problem around this issue.
John Dehlin [00:57:55] Yeah. And can I just say, I've counseled with countless people about this. When, when the couple gets to the point where they're able to have an open, healthy, candid conversation where the, the viewing spouse can say to the non viewing spouse, hey, I do this sometimes. Here's why, will you still love me? And if, if the non viewing spouse is like, hey, don't worry about it, I love you. Let's just figure out how to make our relationship better. Let's just figure out how to have better emotional intimacy. Let's see if we can improve our sexual intimacy. And if this is not a deal breaker, I, you know, even if the, even if it's the decision that the non viewing spouse would prefer the viewing spouse to stop viewing.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:42] Right, right.
John Dehlin [00:58:43] Even if that's still.
Larissa Kindred [00:58:43] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [00:58:44] Which is reasonable. Right. You make an agreement and that's reasonable.
John Dehlin [00:58:47] As long as it's, as long as it's not a deal breaker and as long as there's open, healthy communication, in almost every instance, the, the, the desire to view declines. Now that doesn't mean it disappears. No, but it declines significantly. And I can tell you that the, that before I disclosed to Margi and I did, I disclosed to Margi at some point in 2012 that I had occasionally looked at pornography and masturbated. Margi cried when I disclosed, but then she's like, I love you. And let's just figure this out.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:24] The minute that that happened, the compulsivity of It, Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:28] Yes.
Jeff Kindred [00:59:28] Disappears and it's, and it's so interesting
John Dehlin [00:59:31] and it's never returned.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:32] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:59:33] In terms of the compulsivity. Yeah. It's become a lot less interesting to me. And I am much, much, much more interested in a happy, healthy sexual engagement with Margi than I am. And, and I would say that for me the desire to look at porn and masturbate has dramatically decreased and often is, is just completely non. Existent.
Larissa Kindred [00:59:56] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:57] And my, and, and my sex life with Margi has dramatically improved, which is
Jeff Kindred [01:00:01] our experience, which is so interesting. Right. Because the church is putting you into their little like, program. But, but the root cause is, is the church and their messaging. That's the root cause. And so to me it's like, gosh, it's so crazy. But this was such a, this was such an, a deal breaker for me because the fruit. Right. That was my whole thing was, the fruit was good. So I thought the church again was, was keeping me from Satan's grasp. And then to realize, no, the church has created this problem that was like the thing that pulled the card out. And I mean it came down. I shouldn't say it came down, but it gave me reason to really think, I don't think, I don't know if the church is true. And it gave me a reason then to go and to search out, you know, because I had known the church history issues, I had put them in a place, but then I had, I think that gave me the ability to go and look without that jaded lens and say, okay, I want to find out if the church really is what it says it is at that point.
John Dehlin [01:01:00] And just super quickly I have to call attention to this because I don't think the, the Mormon church or church leaders do this intentionally. But the reason why there's a conflict of interest here between the church being a moral policeman and the sexual lives of married couples is the following. It is objectively true that the Mormon Church needs you to need them. They need you to need them. And so how do they get you to need them? Well, if you feel guilt and shame as a viewer.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:35] Or if you're a terrified spouse thinking that you're viewing spouse is about to become Ted Bundy.
Jeff Kindred [01:01:42] Yes.
Larissa Kindred [01:01:42] Right.
John Dehlin [01:01:42] In either case, you need the church.
Jeff Kindred [01:01:44] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:01:45] And so the non viewing spouse is going to cling to Christ and faith and their bishop, go into the temple to save. Save to save their marriage, to save themselves from being married to Ted Bundy. And then the, the viewing spouse feels so much guilt and shame that they're going to repent and go to the 12 step program and act like they're
Jeff Kindred [01:02:09] an addict and try and white knuckle. Right. The whole time. They're just white knuckling this thing and, and just waiting for that to break again. Because most likely it's going to. Because again, you haven't taken the, the main, you haven't taken the root out, you haven't gotten to the root of the problem.
John Dehlin [01:02:25] And in that case, it's actually a little bit, it's in some ways similar to the LGBTQ dilemma because we all know now that praying the gay away doesn't work. It's toxic. It makes, it makes you suicidal. Praying, praying the sexual drive away, looking to Jesus to save you of your sexual drive does not work.
Jeff Kindred [01:02:48] Right.
John Dehlin [01:02:49] It makes it worse. And so the church, it has a conflict of interest. They cannot and should not be in the business of policing sexuality because it's in their self interest to create the sexual dysfunction that then they offer themselves as the solution for.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:04] When in reality they're creating and exacerbating the problem.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:09] So, so they create the disease and then a cure for the disease.
John Dehlin [01:03:13] And I'm not going to say it's intentional. That's the, that's the outcome.
Jeff Kindred [01:03:17] I don't, I agree with you. I don't think, I don't think it is intentional, but it's a really nice way to keep people feeling like the church is the only thing that's holding them from being this, you know, whatever.
Larissa Kindred [01:03:28] Right.
Jeff Kindred [01:03:29] And they, and so you, you, you are relying on the church to, to think that you're doing this or. I mean, we were talking to someone the other day and they're telling their husband has like four different locks on his phone because he doesn't. And it's like, God, what are you doing? You know, like, like really, what are we doing? Like, this is your sexuality. You're obviously not getting something your sexuality is telling you it needs and that's the problem. So, so it's better to dig in and say, what, what's my sexuality telling me? What's the issue here? Rather than locking it down, locking it down with like nine different things that, I mean, you're just asking for that to be a bigger anxiety provoking thing that you're, you know, you're going to break through and do that. I mean, it's so, it's such a, it's such a weird double edged sword that you're dealing with.
John Dehlin [01:04:14] And I learned from Natasha in the retreats that we've done together that it's never good for a spouse. A spouse should be a partner, a lover, a friend.
Larissa Kindred [01:04:24] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:04:24] It's never good for a spouse to be a parent or a policeman.
Jeff Kindred [01:04:28] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:04:30] Because that kills intimacy.
Jeff Kindred [01:04:31] It changes that dynamic and it kills it. Yes, I agree with that. 100.
John Dehlin [01:04:35] So when you're spouse is. What did you, where were you? Did you look at. Is the filter on? Let me see your phone.
Jeff Kindred [01:04:41] Right.
John Dehlin [01:04:41] Like that. That's an intimacy killer. You're not going to be sexually aroused and attracted to someone who's acting like you're, you're authority. Your mom.
Jeff Kindred [01:04:49] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:49] Right.
John Dehlin [01:04:50] A police officer trying to get you.
Jeff Kindred [01:04:52] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:04:52] So again, that kills, that kills intimacy.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:04:57] So really quickly before we kind of leave this, I do want to. Because I think we're going to get to the faith crisis stuff really soon.
Larissa Kindred [01:05:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:05:07] There are a lot of people that hear this type of discussion and say, well, you're just like porn apologists. You're pro porn. Porn is awful. And whenever you talk like this, it just makes me feel like you're telling the world that porn's a good thing. What would be your response to those types of criticisms that people are saying we're trying to justify porn or say that porn is a good thing?
Jeff Kindred [01:05:30] This is what's so interesting to me is those people because I see them all the time saying you just wanted to look at porn. That's why you left the church. I mean this is a common thing on Twitter. And I think, why would you think that? Like, why is porn such so front and center in your mind that you think that's why we would leave? Do you know what I mean? Like, because they're looking at it. That's why I really, I mean to me it's like this is so, it's so blatant. I mean if you, if you really think that someone's leaving the church to look at porn, why do you think that? Because you obviously have got an issue going on. I mean I really think that they're, they're, they're playing their hand. They're showing you what they got when they say that.
John Dehlin [01:06:04] No, but there's terrified we'll say not non viewing spouses, usually the wife. And they're just like, no, you're never going to convince me that porn's anything other than awful. And it sounds like you're trying to justify porn. And they'll list very credible things. The treatment of women, diseases, abortions, abuse, child porn, like just the coarseness of the industry. You know, you Know, the fact that it takes partners away from connection. Like, there are legitimate problems in. With porn and with the porn industry.
Jeff Kindred [01:06:43] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:06:44] And so let's just assume it's those types of concerns. What do you say about that?
Larissa Kindred [01:06:48] So, so I would say that, like, I don't. I don't think that. I would never say that I'm pro pornography, but I. I think that what I've learned is that pornography is sexual. It's sexual imagery. Right. It kind of just is what it is. And then there's very bad kinds, and then there's maybe some that, you know, there's now like a whole industry that's like, ethical porn. And so I think that it's important. I mean, just like you're saying there are very, very, very harmful types of pornography. Women are often, like, hurt or there. It shows power differentials that are very unhealthy. So I think that. I think that that's why we really love this Rethinking Porn Addiction podcast, because this psychologist in there lays out the principles of good sexual health. And if you apply those to, like, what you're viewing or what you're. Then, then I, you know, a lot of it is like, was it consensual? Is there exploitation involved? You know, and so if you apply these things, then you can decide how you want to engage and what's the most healthiest way. But I think in general, just saying, like, every sexual imagery thing or anything that arouses you is bad. I think that's when we're getting into a territory. So that's what I don't want to say. I don't. I also don't want to say that all porn is good or I'm pro porn or everybody go out there and look at porn. Because, I mean, like, I think that we settled into a place where I. I wasn't just like, yeah, just look at porn and masturbate and, like, do your thing. And. And I think couples can find a healthy, happy place and just say, like, hey, as long as it's ethical, then it's fine with me. But that. I felt like that wasn't okay with me. And so we created a different agreement around, like, what, what do we think? Or how is this. What's a healthy way? If you. If we do want to engage in something that has. Involves sexual imagery, how do we do that? So, so, you know, pro porn would be like, one side and saying all of it is wrong and bad and evil is also on the other side. And I think that we have to Say that, like, porn is what it is. It's sexual imagery. And so you have to assess, is this dangerous? Is that. What is it doing? You know, like, what am I getting from it?
Margi Dehlin [01:08:56] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:08:56] Is it keeping me from. From being intimate with my spouse? And I think that if we try to, like, live by these, you know, sexual health principles, then I think that that kind of helps us to decide what is appropriate for us and what is not. And every couple gets to figure out what that is.
Jeff Kindred [01:09:13] And one of those principles, too, is shared values. Right. So together you decide what are our values? What.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:18] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:09:18] And as long as it's not. As long as it's not compromising someone else, which. What was the. What's that principle?
Larissa Kindred [01:09:25] Exploitation.
Jeff Kindred [01:09:26] Yeah, exploitation. Yeah. And so I agree that's a good way to go about it. But even, you know, you can. You can. You can make this case that, yeah, all porn is terrible, but it doesn't change the fact that some huge percentage of the church men are looking at it. So, I mean, you've got to deal with that, including bishops and stake presidents. And I'm not pointing any fingers because, I mean, there may be. Again, there may be some people that aren't doing any of that, but again, I would say they're probably not healthy either, because I think that they're probably snapping theirs out and repressing it, which, again, is going to come out some other way. That's not healthy, because our second sexuality is part of us. It's a part of our needs, and we need to learn how to live with that. And life's a lot better when you learn to live with it, and you learn to make that.
Larissa Kindred [01:10:16] Embrace your sexuality and learn how to. Don't be disgusted by it, to not
Jeff Kindred [01:10:20] be scared to find pleasure. I feel like in the church, pleasure is like this sinful word. And that's another thing they talked a lot about on that.
Larissa Kindred [01:10:27] And since we became really open about this, too, we've found that other people will say things to us, and a lot of them are our church friends that are in leadership callings. People who are bishops or work for CES or, like, have come to us. Like, once we started just being open and talking about it, and they'd say, like, yeah, I've looked at porn, too. And so it is something like, this isn't just like, these gross people do that, but all the righteous people don't. That's not the case. The church has a huge, huge issue with anxiety around sexuality.
Jeff Kindred [01:10:58] And it's. And like Larissa said, it's so interesting when this. Because this guy came when he heard we had left church. He wanted to come and help us. And it was really nice. We had a great conversation. But he disclosed to us that he's had issues with it. And we created this environment. Right. The church doesn't do that. I mean, there's no room for it. And so. And again, it perpetuates. It's this shoving it down, putting the perfect face up. And then. And it's not healthy, and it's not good. And it doesn't. And again, that's the fruits. And if you want to change the fruits, I don't know how you do it, but that's the fruits.
John Dehlin [01:11:35] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:11:36] And I think. And when we. So we're in this Facebook group, and it's all people that listen to Jennifer Finlayson Fife. And so, you know, people kind of talk and we'll discuss things and share issues, and I think. And it's a huge group. And so I think this was interesting because it's mostly LDS couples, and we're hearing people talking about high levels of sexual dysfunction, and it's. It's like many posts every single day. And so I, you know, like, as we're looking at this and we're dealing with this sexual dysfunction in our lives, I'm starting to think what was the purpose of, like, temple marriage? And, like, you know, like, I'm supposed to save myself for marriage, and I'm not supposed to, like, look at anything or touch myself or do anything until marriage. And then once you get married in the temple, then everything is. Then you live happily ever after. And now I'm realizing that's a lie. Like, you sold us something that. That you just. All we got from it was sexual dysfunction. You know, like, what was the benefit of that? And it is so common for people in this group to say, I actually wish I would have been more sexual experienced before I got married so that I knew what I was doing or so that I understood how my body worked. And there's tons of women. I think men might be more, because of social conditioning, might be more prone to compulsive behaviors, and women may be more prone to repressive behaviors. And again, I don't think. I don't think it's biological. I think it's because of social conditioning.
John Dehlin [01:12:58] And there's exceptions on both sides.
Larissa Kindred [01:12:59] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:59] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:13:00] On both sides. Yeah. But I do think that that's a thing. And one thing, the book that my therapist gave me that was about. It was about women and female Fantasy. One thing that the author wrote, and she's a researcher that just works with women's sexuality, she said she was talking about how important female masturbation is because she says it teaches a woman that they own their bodies. And that just hit me so hard because I was taught in the church that, you know, like, my sexuality belonged to my husband. I save it for my husband. It's not for me. It's. It's for him so that he can, you know, fulfill his sexual urges when he gets married. And I just. It was so empowering to hear her say that like, that. No, my sexuality is for me. It's for me. And obviously, I want to help have that, help me build intimacy with my spouse. But my body is not for somebody else. It's mine. And this is my experience. And I had never connected that. That is part of the experience of masturbation is knowing that, like, it's.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:58] It's.
Larissa Kindred [01:13:59] It's mine and it. It's me. And so, I don't know, we had this, like, very strong shift about masturbation and about, you know, there's so much literature about how this is even a healthy form of, you know, a healthy part of sexual development. And so, yeah, I think that we just really got to this place where we were saying, you know, we know the church is toxic for LGBTQ individuals. We know that there's racism. We know that there's all these things. Things. But this was so eye opening because we then were like, no, it's harming just everyday people. Like, even if the church is working for you and you're in leadership and you're doing the things and you're accepted, the church can still have a really, really significant negative impact on your relationships. And the church is always saying their thing right now is that they always say, family centered church, supported. Like, we're a family centered church and family. It's about time. But I was like, you're hurting my family. You're hurting my marriage. Like, this is this. Is it this most important thing to me. And that's when. That's when we. I feel like that was just the final straw for us is that we're like, no, it's hurting everybody. And we have to. We have to get to the bottom of this.
John Dehlin [01:15:13] Yeah. So well said. I. Before we. I'm really excited to get on to your story, but because we're really digging and diving kind of deep here, there's one last thing I want to cover, and I want to start by telling a quick story. I'M on an airplane a few years back and I run into a friend from byu, married friend, Mormon guy. And he's like, hey, John, how's it going? I haven't seen you a long time. How's life? Oh, it's great. What are you doing? Oh, I'm on a business trip with my wife and I'm like, oh, oh, cool. You're with your wife. And he's like, well, it's not so cool. And he starts to tell me how he was an addict and I'm like, oh my gosh, you're an addict. That's. Thank you for telling me. I'm so sorry. And I'm thinking, what is it meth? Is it heroin? And he's like, oh, no. You know, my wife caught me masturbating and looking at porn. And you know, the church taught me that this was an addiction and I needed to join a 12 step program to deal with my addiction. And. But I go on business trips. It's. I'm a sales rep and I have to go on business trips. So the only way that I can deal with my addiction is I pay for my wife to come with me on every sales call that I make. And so she travels with me as a full time job to help me manage my addiction. And I just thought, whoa, like, you're an international sales rep and your wife pays to travel with you all over the world to police your sexuality. Yeah. Because you think you're an addict. And what, what, what, what? I. The reason why I'm mentioning that is to introduce this idea of the church's 12 step program that whether it's fight the new drug, which is a campaign.
Jeff Kindred [01:16:59] Oh yeah.
John Dehlin [01:17:00] Or the church's 12 step program, there are deep mental health problems with likening porn and masturbation, which is normative and arguably healthy with meth or cocaine or alcohol addiction. Do you either of you have thoughts or feelings about.
Jeff Kindred [01:17:18] Oh, absolutely. And, and you know, again, when you're 16 and you're wondering why you have this strong pull to masturbate and strong pull to look at porn, you think that you are an addict. I mean, I did. I, I honestly did. And, and one of the guys in the rethinking porn podcast, he got sent to some.
Larissa Kindred [01:17:38] What his, he went to like a.
Jeff Kindred [01:17:39] Sent him to like a, some, some intensive, like, aesthetic thing. And he said, he's sitting there thinking, wait, this, these guys are looking at porn like, like we could. It's straight, you know, like hardcore, like,
Larissa Kindred [01:17:50] stuff, spending all their family money, like,
Jeff Kindred [01:17:52] looking up something online for like. And not to put some, you know, there's not some amount that makes it good or bad. But, but I'm just saying he, he felt totally out of place. But again the churches idea of this is who you are. As a matter of fact there was a study, wasn't there? They asked people at byu, it came
Larissa Kindred [01:18:07] out of BYU about people that identified as addicts, but they weren't showing addictive behavior. They might have been showing. Right. Unhealthy compulsive behavior or things like that around sexuality but they were not showing addictive behavior.
Jeff Kindred [01:18:21] So they had them fill out a form of what their behavior was and then they asked him, are you an addict? And what, what they, the ones who said they were an agist, which was a lot I think. And, and they, but they didn't meet the criteria by any stretch of the imagination.
John Dehlin [01:18:33] Yeah, I was a counselor at Utah State University for six years to return Mormon return missionaries. Basically they would come in and self identify as addicts and it turns out they would masturbate once every three weeks. Yeah, for 20 minutes. And they were calling themselves addicts.
Jeff Kindred [01:18:52] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:18:53] Yeah. Okay.
Larissa Kindred [01:18:54] And think, but think of the psychological damage of believing that you are an addict.
Jeff Kindred [01:18:59] And you know the other thing that's so sad, John, is they're doing it once every three weeks because they feel so much guilt and shame that that's how long it takes for that to build up. And then they do it again. And then, and then they start this cycle again, this reinforcing cycle of orgasm and then guilt and shame associated with the, and the anxiety around building up to that point where you're going to go ahead and do it. So there's anxiety with it. I think that that can't be stressed enough because I've lived it. I know that that that's true.
John Dehlin [01:19:26] And we've had past episodes on the church's 12 step program and how problematic it is. We'll try and include links to that, but that's its own problem, its own episode. Let's get back to your story.
Faith Deconstruction and Leaving the Church
Larissa Kindred [01:19:36] So, so yeah, so at this point we are identifying that the church is causing significant harm to maybe like the majority people are really experiencing this. And what we also found is that the more we think that the more involved you are in the church, like we were, we were involved just about as much as you could be, the more involved you are. We think the church has greater. Will have greater harm on you. So I think there are probably people in the church that maybe are kind of have Good differentiation from the church, or they're not in a weird codependent relationship with the church, but they're kind of separated, and they're not gonna be put in leadership, and they're not gonna. You know. And I think that there's people that find happiness in that place. But what we found is that the harder we were going, the more involved we were, the higher you climb, the more it is harming you, is what we found. So we kind of, like, took different approaches. So at this point, Taylor Petrie had just written his book Tabernacles of Clay. And I think I even saw this from Patrick Mason, that he had recommended it and said, this is an amazing book. It had won, like, the Mormon History association award. So I wanted to understand, like, what's the church's history of dealing with sexuality? Has it always been this weird, you know, what happened with it? So I got that book and I started reading it through the summer. In fact, I was like, taking my kids to the pool, and I would just. Like. I had my little book, like, my Taylor Petrie sexuality book, and I read it through the summer. So that was kind of my first start into saying, like, what is going on with the church that it's creating so many levels of toxicity on so many levels, you know, And. And sometimes it makes me sad that, like, sometimes I look back and I think, I should have left the church over racism. That was enough. I should have left the church at the November 15 policy. That would have been enough. Just in and of itself. I should have left. I should have left when I identified patriarchy. But some of these things are. We are constantly surrounded by apologetic, you know, like, excuses for why these things exist, and that it almost is like, we live our whole lives with these excuses. And so it just doesn't. It just takes a long time for those things to kind of combine and build up. But. But, yeah, we got to the point where we were like, what's going on with the church? And if this is really harming people, then why would God. Why would God allow these things to become institutionally infused into the church? These aren't just random, like, oh, yeah, the gay problem. These are really big issues that cause huge amounts of harm.
John Dehlin [01:22:13] But you're not saying the gay issue isn't a big issue, right?
Larissa Kindred [01:22:15] Yeah, I'm saying that people talk about it like it's kind of like, oh, you know, like, you know, like, it's kind of problematic with the race thing. But, like, I'm saying, like, this. These are the issues. These Are, like, the biggest issues that I feel like we're dealing with as, like, human beings is. Is, you know, like, human rights issues and, like, treating people and allowing people to identify the way that they need to and eradicating racism. But these are the issues that have become institutionalized within the church. So our question is, did God allow these to be institutionalized in his church? Because I know that the church is full of imperfect people, but would God allow these to, like, become so ingrained? So I went, why?
Jeff Kindred [01:22:56] If he did, why. Why did God do that?
Larissa Kindred [01:22:59] Why didn't he let that happen? You know? And so, yeah, so I went one way. So I was still kind of. I don't know why. I was still kind of, like, holding onto the church approved. But Taylor Petrie was a stretch for me, so I started to go Taylor Petrie. But interestingly enough, Jeff took, like. Once Jeff saw this, he was, like, off the cliff. Like, he was just like, well, so
Jeff Kindred [01:23:23] I remember two things speaking to my. To our therapists, and I was still. This was when I was still. Before Larissa and I had done sessions together. I was still doing it alone. And. And I'm talking to him, and. And he's saying, well, Jeff, why do you. Why do you think this? Like, why are you. What's making you do that? And I go, well, in our church, we have a prophet, and. And the prophet is taught. This is what it is. And he's like. He's like a prophet. And I'm like, yeah. He goes, what does that mean? And I go, well, that He. That God is telling him, like, what we need to be doing. And he goes, oh, that's really dangerous. You know, like, to him, he's like, what in the world? Like, that's really dangerous. And. And it was this weird thing where I'm like, yeah, that is really dangerous. Like, that's really dangerous. And it's funny that it took, like. And it was probably just the perfect storm of all these things coming together for him to say that. And then you're saying that the teaching
John Dehlin [01:24:13] that God speaks to prophets is dangerous. Is that what you mean?
Jeff Kindred [01:24:16] That's what he was believing that a man. He was trying to get to.
John Dehlin [01:24:20] Why say that again?
Larissa Kindred [01:24:22] He was saying that believing that a man speaks for God is dangerous.
John Dehlin [01:24:26] I agree.
Larissa Kindred [01:24:26] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:24:27] I agree. It's one of the most dangerous things in the world.
Larissa Kindred [01:24:30] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:24:30] It's too much power.
Larissa Kindred [01:24:31] It's a lot of power.
Jeff Kindred [01:24:33] But, you know, that's so conditioned inside of us that it took that moment for me to be like, yeah, like, that is. That is crazy that I'm. And so much of what I've done for 40 years of my life is because of this, you know, believing that this man is talking to God. And so that was one moment, and then the other one was when we were talking, and I'm coming to this realization. And the house of cards had recently fallen. I think that was the last time I talked to him. And he said, jeff, I feel like your blinders have come off. And he called them the scales of darkness falling from my eyes. And it's so funny because that's the verse we always use when we're, like, teaching people and to come into the church. Right. The scales of darkness fell. And he was referring that to me, and it was like this perfect classic, and he had no idea how perfect it was. But I'm like. He goes, jeff, I feel like I see the scales of darkness falling from your eyes. And I had this moment, and I asked him, I said, do I need to leave the church? And he goes, Jeff, that's the $50,000 question, and only you can answer that. But that's the first time I had ever even contemplated that being a thing like, could I. Could I leave the church? And even though this stuff had crumbled, I had never, ever been able to think of myself outside of the church. I mean, it's like. It's so hard to do. It's like in our bones, right? I mean, this is everything that I. I mean, every decision I make on a daily basis, the church is influencing in one way or another how we dress.
Margi Dehlin [01:26:01] Yes.
Larissa Kindred [01:26:01] What we. Our food. Right. Our. On some level, our. Our food. Our tight. Like, where we spend our money. I mean, what we do during the week. You know, Jeff never cycles on Sunday, even though his friends go cycling on Sunday, because, you know, so there. It. This is affecting so many aspects of our life.
Jeff Kindred [01:26:17] So. So when that. When that happened. And again, it gave me the ability then to look at the church and go back and be like, okay, I want to know if this is really true. And. And. And you may say I had a bias at that point. And, yes, because I was open to it not being truth for the first time in my life. You know, when I had read Rough Stone Rolling, I wasn't looking to see if the church was true. All I was looking for was reinforcement that it. Like, how. How these things could be put together in a way so that I could make sense of it and not have to stress out or to worry about it. And it did that for me now, when you start to take these issues apart, and it didn't take long. I mean, a few Mormon stories episodes and looking into. I mean, I think the first thing was the Book of Abraham. And I'm like, oh, gosh, that's the smoking gun. And then. And then it was polygamy. And I'm like, oh, gosh, that's the smoking gun. When you really start to dig into that. And then it was like the happiness letter. I remember, like, going back through that and being like, oh, my gosh, that's like its own smoking gun. And then the priesthood restoration. And I mean, it just goes. The list just keeps going of things that don't add up.
John Dehlin [01:27:24] And basically everything that we're covering in the LDS discussion series, you would never.
Jeff Kindred [01:27:31] And Mike always says this, he says, you would never give another church the leeway that we. That members give our church of, like, the benefit of the doubt with so many things, you know, and it really is. And so things toppled again quickly for me at that point. Quicker than Larissa, interestingly, because she was so far in front of me as far as this process she had been going through, which I. I think is. I don't know why that is with. With Mormon men. I think that's more common of the women kind of going. I mean, you didn't have that type of thing. You had a long, slow thing, too. But I.
John Dehlin [01:28:06] Well, to be clear, I lost my faith in 2001. I just thought you could do the progressive route as a non believer. But it. But. Yeah, but. But even then, it took 15 or 20 years to lose my faith because I started at BYU. Yeah, yeah, but it's just way too hard. In a high demand religion. There's way too many forces gravitating, pulling you to stay.
Larissa Kindred [01:28:29] Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:28:30] Yes.
Larissa Kindred [01:28:30] Yeah. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:28:31] So Jeff.
Larissa Kindred [01:28:32] Jeff surprisingly, like, took a real. Took a passion.
John Dehlin [01:28:35] Did he pass you up?
Larissa Kindred [01:28:36] He. He went. He just, like, went for it. And I was kind of like, whoa, like, this is a thing. And then I was getting worried about him. Cause I was like, I'm worried that you're listening to these podcasts and you're in an echo chamber. That's what I said.
John Dehlin [01:28:50] Which podcast? This podcast, Mormon Stories, is an echo chamber.
Larissa Kindred [01:28:55] That's what I thought.
John Dehlin [01:28:56] Oops.
Larissa Kindred [01:28:56] You know, I have to be. Well, hey, I had a change of heart.
Jeff Kindred [01:29:00] She'd never listen to it.
Larissa Kindred [01:29:01] I never listened to it. So Jeff gets into Mormon stories and he starts saying things to me and he's like, oh, you've gotta listen to this. Thing about the Book of Abraham.
John Dehlin [01:29:10] And I was kinda like the Robert in your episode.
Larissa Kindred [01:29:13] Yeah. Is that what you listen to? Yeah. And I was kind of like, I don't. What. What is even the deal with the Book of Abraham? Like, why is that even significant at all? I. I had. I had no idea. And I think what's shocking is for. For us in this experience is you don't realize how fast everything comes crumbling down. But it's because there's so much information that's good information out there that it just make. You're just like, oh, no, nope, nope, that's not true. You know, like, it's just. There's so much that's kept from us in the church that you don't realize is out there. And then once you just, like, open the door and you know, like, you can even. This is what one of my things was is. I was like, are people saying church history things, but they're putting a spin on it, you know, like, are they putting a spin on it to manipulate people? And so it wasn't till. Wasn't till I started looking into things that I was like, oh, no, like this. There's not a spin. Like, these are the facts. And even if there was a spin, you can. You can point it, you can still figure out, like, these are the facts. This is what we know. And so you can. You can really tell the difference between bias and. No, this is just the reality of the situation. And so I think that it comes crumbling down really fast once you open the church history.
Jeff Kindred [01:30:25] And one of the things that bothered me so bad was when I was going through this whole thing, my Our Sexuality journey. And JFF was talking about, if you can't look yourself in the mirror and be honest with who you are and know yourself, no one can ever know you. You know, intimacy is gone. If you're not willing to do it, no one else is gonna be able to do it. And I thought of the church and I said, dude, the church is not willing to look itself in the mirror and square with who it really is. Right? It wants to portray this image of who it is, but it doesn't ever deal with these issues. I mean, the racism's never been dealt with. The polygamy, it's never been dealt with. They just put these things. They kind of like, make flowery little things about them and then kind of like try and push them underground. And the only thing that made them come to light was the Internet. And, like, the information, right, Is the only thing, the reason the Church has somewhat tried to square with it with, like, the gospel topics essays, but to me, that was. I got really resentful at that point because I'm like, man, the church expects me to go and to be this type of person, but they won't do it. The church institution won't do it itself. And that, again, was something where I felt like I started to get angry when I saw it had affected me. It affected our relationship. It was affecting our family. And then to see that feeling like this was hypocrisy on their part, that was. Yeah. And so it, for me, came down. And I actually remember this night. We were in our bedroom. You remember, right?
John Dehlin [01:31:52] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:31:52] And I told her, I said, I don't think I want to go to church anymore. And I said, and I don't think I want to pay tithing anymore. And she got really panicked. And I said, but I'm willing to. I'm willing to. As long as you felt like we need to, I will support you and I will.
John Dehlin [01:32:07] I will go.
Jeff Kindred [01:32:08] Because I realized it was probably a little too much too soon.
Larissa Kindred [01:32:10] You kind of jumped the gun with me. Yeah. So I. I just wasn't at that point. And seriously, it just took a few podcasts, and he was just like, I'm. Goodbye. I'm, like, heading off the cliff. So I. I was really upset at that point and. And worried. And you know what? This is really. It was that night when we were having this conversation that I. That I had this thought in my mind when he's telling me this, and I'm thinking, like, oh, Jeff's gonna leave the church. And then I'm gonna be that woman. Like, I'm gonna be the mixed faith marriage person. And this is the thing that I grew up with that I worked so hard in my life to not be. And that was my thought in my mind, is, I can't be that person. I can't be that person that everyone's feeling bad for me because her husband lost his way. But I caught myself, and I thought, that is so messed up that that's my concern. Like, that should not be my concern right now is. Is who. Who am I? Or what do I look like? So I think at this point, I had enough awareness that I was trying to, you know, be a certain image in the church, but it was still there. I was like, I can't be that person in the church, the one with the wayward husband I have, like, I. Who. I can't be that. And I.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:23] That.
Larissa Kindred [01:33:24] I immediately was like, larissa, that's messed up. Like, you have to understand, like, how weird your relationship is with the church. So. So, yeah, Jeff was ready to leave.
Jeff Kindred [01:33:34] And I remember my last High council meeting, and I'm in there. And this was. This was in Covid, but it was.
Larissa Kindred [01:33:43] It was 2021.
Jeff Kindred [01:33:44] 2021, it would have been.
Larissa Kindred [01:33:45] This was the summer of last year,
Jeff Kindred [01:33:47] and I'm in my last High council meeting, and it was so hard to be there, even. But the topic was, how do we get people to come back to church?
Larissa Kindred [01:33:56] Because after Covid, a lot of people weren't coming to church. It was a huge thing.
Jeff Kindred [01:34:00] And the recommendations around the table, so many of them, we got to cut off the zoom fee, so we're going to force their hand. And I'm just sitting there thinking, do you ever wonder why. Why do they not want to come back to church? And you know, like, what is it? Because we realized how miserable it is on Sunday with the church and how nice it was to be home. I mean, seriously, it was so much nicer. And so I went home and I told Larissa. I'm like, hey, I've got to call the stake president and tell him that I need to meet with him. And so I met with him. He was very, very nice. He actually tried to do the. We want your voice. You know, we need your voice on here because of your. And I said, no, I can't do it. I just. Not in good faith. It's a self betrayal, I said. And I told him, I said, you know, I'm seeking for the truth, and if the church has the truth, I think I'll find my way back because I. Because if it's true, I want that. And I knew. I mean, I knew at that point enough that I didn't think there was ever a chance in hell I was gonna come back. But again, I told him, honestly, if this is the truth, and he was very nice about it. He gave me.
John Dehlin [01:35:13] He's the same stake president who's black.
Larissa Kindred [01:35:15] Yeah. And he's great. We love him.
John Dehlin [01:35:17] He's really great president.
Jeff Kindred [01:35:19] He's still.
Larissa Kindred [01:35:19] Yeah, he's still the state president in our area. Yeah, he's a great guy.
Jeff Kindred [01:35:24] And then. And so that was.
John Dehlin [01:35:26] So he handled that okay. But you basically resigned as a Stake High Council.
Larissa Kindred [01:35:30] Yes. So the funny thing was, though, is that they took. Took a. Like several months to replace him, but Jeff was like, I'm done. I'm not doing any. I'm not traveling. I'm not doing any of my responsibilities. So they took him it took till October, so this was in the summer, so Jeff was still technically on the High Council until October. And we were, like, moving. This is jumping ahead, but we had already, like, moved full into, like, our ex Mormon life. So we're, like, drinking and, like, we have a coffee maker. Like, we're just, like, fully. But I'm like, just, jeff, you're still on the High Council. Technically, it just was, like, a funny thing, but it just took them a little while. So
Jeff Kindred [01:36:07] one interesting thing from that. So when I met with the stake president and I'm giving him the Cliff Notes version of all of these things I've been thinking about and going through, and the first thing he said was, well, when was the last time you felt the spirit? And this is an interesting thing for me because I really have this idea of what the Spirit was. And as Larissa and I were deconstructing through this, I felt like we felt
Larissa Kindred [01:36:41] the same thing that we had identified
Jeff Kindred [01:36:43] as the Spirit that we had identified as the Spirit that we thought was letting us know the Book of Mormon was true as we were connecting. And during COVID I felt like I had so many special experiences with patients because it was a stressful time for people. And a lot of, you know, when I'm seeing these older patients and they're kind of don't have contact and they're really struggling, and I'm having these special experiences with them, there's nothing about the church, but I'm feeling that same thing. And I start to realize, no, this is human connection. And so when he said, when was the last time you felt the spirit? Like, And I'm sure he thought that, oh, months. You know, it's been months ago. But I'm like, no, I'm feeling it more right now than ever. And. And I'm sure. And this isn't him. I know this is just what you think when you're in the church is. That's not the Spirit. You know, you're being deceived. You know, you. But. But it's so funny to me because what about the people that are saying that the vaccine, like, the spirit's telling them not to get the vaccine, you know, like, we don't call them out or not, but it's just. So the Spirit's such a funny thing in the church that as long as it affirms what people. What the prophets say, then, yes, that's the Spirit. But if it doesn't affirm what the prophet prophets say, oh, no, that's not the Spirit. That's not the spirit. That must be something else. So that. That was an interesting thing to go through any.
John Dehlin [01:37:56] Any time. There's an epistemology problem within Mormonism, which is the study of how we believe things. Because anytime you feel good about something, that's the Holy Ghost. But who doesn't make decisions based on how they feel about things? Everybody does.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:10] So everybody can claim that it's the Holy Ghost and everybody can point at the other guy who has a different decision and. Or a different conclusion and say, well, that's the adversary.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:19] How do we know there's Feelings do not equate truth.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:23] And that's true for Muslims and the FLDS church and cult leaders in the Mormon Church.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:28] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:38:29] And it's hard because I think in the church that they create a narrative around your feelings, you know, because you'll be feeling connection or you'll be hearing beautiful music that touches you. And the church kind of almost appropriates your feelings and tells you that means the church is true. And this is where we start kind of feeling like, should we even be sending our kids to church? Cause so Jeff is kind of ready to take the deep dive and go and leave. But I was still like, I don't know. And is it gonna be disruptive for our kids? And I don't feel totally sure yet. Cause I haven't done the history deep dive yet. And I'm still in the Taylor Petrie book, but I was still just kind of like, I don't know. And our kids are like, my. Our daughter went to girls camp that summer and had a great time. And so we start, you know, like, but. But understanding that about how the church kind of co ops your feelings and then tells you a narrative around it. I think that is when we started saying, like, no, this might even be dangerous to have our kids be in this setting because they're getting this type of messaging that is not what we believe or it's not. It's not true.
John Dehlin [01:39:38] So. Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:39:39] So. Yeah. So before that, before we. Before I. Before I fully, like, get. Go through my, like, complete faith crisis. I get a new calling to teach gospel doctrine in my ward. Yes, this is the summer. And I probably shouldn't have said yes, but I genuinely was like, no, I think it'll be really good because I know that people are struggling in the church.
Jeff Kindred [01:40:03] And this was a little before.
Larissa Kindred [01:40:04] This was. Yeah, this was maybe like in the springtime. So I wasn't in a full. Yeah, I wasn't in a full. Full faith crisis yet, but we Were. We had already been to therapy. We had already identified that there were major issues I was going through, like the Taylor Petrie book. So my bishop talks to me, and he's like, hey, you know, do you want to teach gospel doctrine? And I hadn't had a calling for a little bit because of my cancer treatment, so I was like, can I. Can I do? And it's. And it's Doctrine and Covenants. That's what the. That's what the lessons are. And I was kind of like, could I. Could I do that? But at the time, I was like, no, I know people are struggling, and we. We want to have these conversations, like, this is what the church needs. So I'm still feeling very positive, like, no, we can. Let's talk about this. So I thought, you know what? Maybe this will be a really good way to approach some of these hard topics in the church, and we can have a conversation about them, and I think it'll be really good for everybody. So I said, yes. And. But I'm in this place where we're starting to understand that there were certain things not said. And so I kind of start using Sunday school as. As a way to kind of just work through some of these. These questions. And I. I can't. I can't go there with the Come Follow Me manual because it's so correlated and, you know, it's so whitewashed. And so I was like, I need to find some other sources that maybe have, like, some real. Real information. And so I'm like, searching online, and I found the website LDS discussions. So. So I don't. I don't know anything about LDS discussions. And I hope. I hope Mike hears this and thinks this is funny, because I used LDS discussions to plan my gospel doctrine lessons. And I didn't. I did not say anything that was, like, super, super problematic. But I was looking through these, and I was like, oh, yeah, he breaks down. Like, he. He breaks down the church's Word of Wisdom video. You know, they're little, like now, you know, like, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:04] Did you do it?
John Dehlin [01:42:05] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:05] So he. So I was doing a Word of wisdom lesson, and I. I call this my swan song, because I feel like
Jeff Kindred [01:42:12] I think this was our second to last.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:14] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:42:15] That we went.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:15] So I had taught a few lessons. Like, I taught one lesson, and it was about the temple, because I think I was teaching about the three degrees of glory. And so I was. I was kind of just saying, like, hey, are we all okay that so few people will have access to LDS temple? So I wasn't I really was not trying at all to be combative or problematic.
John Dehlin [01:42:35] Just talk about stuff.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:36] I was like, let's just talk about stuff.
John Dehlin [01:42:38] So, like, what could go wrong? What could go wrong? Let's just talk openly.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:42] Yeah, you know what? Maybe I was kind of being, like, a little bit devil's advocate. I don't know. But.
John Dehlin [01:42:46] But.
Larissa Kindred [01:42:46] So I was like, are we all okay with this? And the funny thing, though, is that I felt like we had really, really good discussions. Like, there were a lot of people that were like, yeah, I don't like this. Or like, this makes me feel sad. And like, what about those people that are really good? They can't get into heaven. And so we're having really good discussions, and I'm getting, like, text messages, and people are saying, like, I love Sunday
John Dehlin [01:43:08] School best than ever.
Larissa Kindred [01:43:09] I love Sunday school. But you've also got, like, five people complaining about me lining up at the bishop's office. Yep. So. So we've got, like, people complaining about.
John Dehlin [01:43:18] I did it.
Jeff Kindred [01:43:19] They taught me.
John Dehlin [01:43:20] They had me teach elder score for three months or three years. Three years. And it was like, a third loved it, a third were asleep, and a third were complaining to the bishop.
Larissa Kindred [01:43:29] Yes. That was 100% it. Yeah. So this is my experience. But.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:33] But.
Larissa Kindred [01:43:33] So I taught a lesson on the Word of Wisdom, and I feel like it was my. I call this my swan song in the church. I was standing up there wearing my pants, and I had used LDS discussions to prepare for it. And so we were just talking about the Word of Wisdom, so I just, like, broke it down like I'm writing on the board, and I'm like, okay, so these things, you can't get a temple recommend for. But, like, these things. Why do we just ignore this? You know, like, there's parts of the Word of Wisdom that we don't even talk about or acknowledge or.
John Dehlin [01:44:00] So, like, if you don't eat meat sparingly, and in times of winter famine, if you eat meat, eat regularly, you can still go to the temple.
Larissa Kindred [01:44:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:44:09] But if you drink cold coffee, which isn't forbidden by the Word of Wisdom, because the Word of Wisdom only prohibits hot drinks and doesn't actually mention coffee or tea.
Larissa Kindred [01:44:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:44:21] Then you're kept out of the temple. Right? Right.
Larissa Kindred [01:44:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:44:23] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:44:24] So I'm breaking this down, and I'm. And I'm. There's also a part in the Word of Wisdom that says, like, barley is okay for, like, for drinks.
John Dehlin [01:44:31] And so I was like, drinks of mild barley, which is beer. So the Word of Wisdom Allows beer.
Larissa Kindred [01:44:37] So I'm. I'm teaching. Teaching gospel doctrine. And I'm like, beer is okay. Like, I'm like, I'm just telling you that in the scriptures, it says that beer is okay. So we're having this, like, this, like, robust discussion, and Jeff is there. And Jeff has always been, like. Jeff has always been, like, Mr. High Counselor in the church, so he can't even engage.
Jeff Kindred [01:44:55] He's just sitting there. And I was there totally to support Larissa, and really, it was, like, such a perfect moment. She's up there in her pants, and we didn't realize.
Larissa Kindred [01:45:06] This is where I peeked.
Jeff Kindred [01:45:08] There was another couple in the world, and we didn't know they were going through a faith crisis, too. So they start talking, and he starts saying, so I drink. You know, I drink two monsters in the morning. Is that really healthier than if I just drank coffee? And I'm like, no, it's not. And so. And so we. And then there's a new member there who's saying that part of her devotion in the morning is she reads her Bible as she drinks coffee. And so she's get. She's like, yes, thank you. Like, I feel like that's part of my morning devotion. And so we're making. I mean, it was like. It was like chef's kiss, that lesson.
Larissa Kindred [01:45:42] So I felt like the word of wisdom is kind of just. It's almost just like, stupid. Or we talk about it. We're just like, whatever. But I felt like it was the perfect venue to really talk about, like, what's our relationship to, like, the leadership? Like, if. Like, do we just obey blindly or do we think through this? So we're having this full discussion. Yeah. And there's this. The woman that. That was talking, she was investigating. So we've got somebody who's looking into joining. And she was like, yeah, I have, like, my morning coffee, and I read my Bible every morning. And she was like, so is that wrong? And I like, look at the class. And I'm like, are we gonna tell her this is wrong? And everybody was like, no. So kind of the consensus of the class at the end was just like, coffee is okay.
Jeff Kindred [01:46:22] And then, of course, like, five feet, probably more than five. That day, they didn't talk during the lesson, but they went straight, straight to the.
Larissa Kindred [01:46:29] So after that, maybe like a day or two after that, a member of the bishopric called me, and he was like. He was like, how you doing? I was like, okay. I was like, look, I'm like, I'm just gonna be Straight with you. I was like, jeff and I are going through something. And I was like, we are deconstructing. Like, we are trying to figure out, like, what we believe that the church teaches and what is not. And he was like, well, you still believe that it's even. He was like, yeah, I understand. Like, there's certain things that maybe people have to let go of. But he goes, you still think that it's, like, the best place to, like, be and raise your family, right? And I said, I actually don't know. I don't know. I can't say that that is the case. And so he was kind of like, well, do you feel like you can teach? And I was like, well, this is how I have to teach. This is the only way that I can do this. I said, I know that we're gonna get to the end of the year, and there's DNC132. And I was like, and I will tell you that I've come to the place in my life where I believe that polygamy is wrong. It's based on women as a commodity and men acquiring commodities. So I was just like, I can't do it, and I do not believe the church's, like, apologetic response to polygamy. And so he was like, okay, maybe we could get somebody else to teach that week. But, like, do you feel like this is okay? And I was like, well, if you're okay with, like, what I'm doing, then I. I can do this for, like, a little bit. And he was kind of like, okay. So then. So then I taught the next week, and then after that, he called me again, and he was like, hey, let's start going through your lessons before you teach. And I was. And then I was kind of like, I'm being managed. Like, I can tell I'm being managed now. So around the same time, this is kind of where I, like, I do feel like this was an important experience for me because I feel like it's where I really, like, completed my arc of, like, always trying to be someone in the church and always trying to be, like, palatable for everybody else. And I just was so, like, I'm gonna say the thing and do my thing. And it felt actually really, really authentic to me. But I knew, because I knew that, like, now I'm not trying to be Miss Relief Society president. Now I'm just gonna be me. But it felt so liberating, and it just. I felt like I had a good. It was a good exit from the church for me.
Jeff Kindred [01:48:43] And it was around this time that Larissa still hadn't. I think she was teetering. I don't remember where it fell in the thing, but she was teetering. And I had listened to Shannon Montez, her story. She did the ones with BH Roberts, which were excellent, too, but this was her own story. When I listened to it, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is like, Larissa needs to listen to this.
Larissa Kindred [01:49:08] And so Shannon. In her interview, Shannon talks about feeling secondary to her spouse, feeling invisible in the church, giving up, you know, sacrificing all of these things so that she could be a mom, but her husband got to be a dad, and he didn't have to sacrifice things. And so I think Jeff knew that I would relate to this. So Jeff had. Jeff was like, I really think you should listen to this Mormon Stories podcast. And I was kind of like, I don't know, is it just people being really negative and, like, do they all have an ax to grind? Because I had heard things about Mormon stories, so. So one day I took my daughter. She. She rode horses. Like, she did, like, horse competitions. So I was at this competition with her all day, and she doesn't ride that much. And so I knew I had the whole day, and Jeff had text it to me. So I'm just sitting, like, with my AirPods in, out at the. Like, at the horse paddock or whatever, and I'm sitting there all day listening to her Mormon story. And it was. I mean, it was almost just. It affected me, so I just wasn't prepared.
John Dehlin [01:50:12] What was it? What was it? What were some of the things that affected you?
Larissa Kindred [01:50:14] I just. I just related so hard to her experience just as a Mormon woman and the messaging that she got when she was younger. I just related so hard to it and really kind of messed up my brain because I wasn't expecting that. I wasn't expecting, like, to feel so connected to what she was saying. Like, she was telling my story. And then eventually, like, she goes back to school and, like, she's getting her master's degree. And so I just. It just hit me so hard. But while she's. While she's talking, too, she also, like, breaks down, like, some of the. Some of, like, her beliefs, like, I don't know. And it was just. It was just getting. It was. She was. It was making me laugh because she's, you know, she's funny and interesting, but it was also. What was she saying?
Jeff Kindred [01:51:01] There's this point where her husband is saying, but what if it's true? And she said, oh, it's not true. And then she starts bringing up Ammon cutting off the arms and, like, what that would entail of him.
Larissa Kindred [01:51:14] Like, she was like, you have to resharpen your sword every time he had re.
Jeff Kindred [01:51:19] Sharpening the sword between each one. And I mean, she just went through and had, you know, these explanations for things that she said. Trust me, it's not true. And it was. It was really. I mean, it was so good. The whole episode was so great.
Larissa Kindred [01:51:33] But I think me relating to her and then her bringing up some of these, like, problematic things in the church, I think these are things I hadn't thought of. And so then I was like, oh, yeah, that is weird. Yeah. Why do we believe that? Or why do we think that Nephi could have built that boat and, like, gone and done this thing? So I think the fact that she also pointed out these things, it gave me kind of like the push to say, yeah, like, let's. Let's start digging in. Because I think that we had enough just with, like, our relationship issues and with the social issues of the church. I think that's enough. That was enough for us to really have significant issue with the church. We don't feel like we left because of church history. We feel like the church history was the nail in the coffin. Would you say that?
Jeff Kindred [01:52:15] Yeah, absolutely.
Larissa Kindred [01:52:16] I think that was the thing that made us really be able to let go and just say it's not. It's not. Not true. So. So after. After Shannon Montez, then I think after that, I was listening to, like, the Robert Rittner one because Jeff had said that was good. The Christine Jepsen Clark one.
Jeff Kindred [01:52:30] That one was excellent.
Larissa Kindred [01:52:31] That one was really good.
John Dehlin [01:52:32] That's one of the most viewed of all time.
Larissa Kindred [01:52:34] It's so good.
John Dehlin [01:52:35] There's no video. Yeah, we'll include a link to that
Jeff Kindred [01:52:38] because that one was so good. And when she talks about her paradigm shift, being in the choir and being with you meant the. The gay member of the choir that changed her view on. That was so profound to me. I mean, and then the other thing that was so profound, it was her son that went through the operation. Right. And. And was saved. And there was the other little boy in there. And she. And she said, it's because he got a blessing and the other one. And the other little boy was in there and he got a blessing. And she went back the next time to follow up and she said, oh, how's he doing? They said, oh, he died. And it's like, okay, well, why do blessings work sometimes or not other times? I mean, those are really hard things to square with, but, yeah, so those were things that really.
Larissa Kindred [01:53:19] And I think once we started, like, fully, fully looking into every single thing. Cause, you know, I started breaking down, like, do I believe in this principle? And I had this one moment where I was thinking about priesthood blessings, because, you know, those have always been special. And Jeff has given our kids priesthood blessings. And I don't know why this had never occurred to me before, but, like, one time I'm just thinking, and I thought, does God honor, like, Jeff's prayer more than my prayer? Like, why would he honor Jeff's prayer over our kids more than, like, my prayer over our kids? Like, I'm their mom. And so, you know, like, even some of these things that we think are special in the church, we don't realize that that's problematic. Or like my neighbor, who's a good dad but not a member of the church, God listens to his prayer less than Jeff's prayer because Jeff has the priesthood. So we started just. Just kind of deconstructing and breaking down every piece of what we believed, and we found that there was very, very little left. And I've heard you say this, John, that, like, what's the thing. Like, what's. What's unique to the church is. Is usually the problematic stuff and the thing that are more universal. That's the stuff that you want to keep.
John Dehlin [01:54:27] I mean, I. I've heard several people say this. I don't even know who to attribute to.
Margi Dehlin [01:54:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:54:32] But it's like. Like, none of the good in Mormonism is unique. And all of the. You know.
Margi Dehlin [01:54:38] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [01:54:39] Although the unique things aren't good.
John Dehlin [01:54:41] Yeah, exactly.
Larissa Kindred [01:54:42] Yeah. So, you know, because we're thinking, like, do we believe in tithing? And I'm like, yeah, I believe in, like, charitable giving and, like, you know, to causes that you care for. And so, like, there are. But you can do that. You don't have to do that within the church. And so, yeah, it very quickly, like, all kind of came falling down. And then I. So because of kind of who we were and the relationships we had in the church, we felt like we had to make a very distinct break. And so Jeff had talked to the Stake president, and then I felt like we needed to talk to our bishop because I had worked with him as Relief Society president, and I did not want him to think that I felt unsupported. And I had had a very good experience with him. And so we told him that we needed him. To talk to him and for him to come over to our house. And I think that he.
John Dehlin [01:55:28] He.
Larissa Kindred [01:55:28] He thought that we were getting divorced because he came in and it was, like, kind of tense. And then after we, like, laid it all out for him, he. He was like, oh, I think it would have been. I would. That would have been more likely for you guys to get divorced than for me. That, like, he was so. He was just. It was like. So he was, like, blown away. It was just. It. We just weren't. I just think we were like those people in the church that you wouldn't think this. This would happen to. And so we just really. We, like, blindsided him. So we had, like, a talk with him. There were a few other, like, leadership people that wanted to talk to us. And so we kind of, like, did this thing. And then after that, we started talking to our kids about it, and then kind of started making the process of, like, fully kind of extricating ourselves from the church.
John Dehlin [01:56:13] So you guys did the full deconstruction? Yeah, in the free fall.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:17] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [01:56:17] And it was. It really. It. It just took a few months, surprisingly.
Jeff Kindred [01:56:21] And thank goodness we had each other through that, because that is not a fun thing. And, and, you know, we had this person I talked about earlier that was in our bishopric. He was the executive secretary. We rekindled your relationship with them. And then that other group, that other couple in the Word of Wisdom class that we didn't know was going through a deconstruction. So now there's a group of four,
Larissa Kindred [01:56:44] and they're leaving at the same time as us.
Jeff Kindred [01:56:46] And it's been really helpful to have a group who, you know, when you have that. You have that Mormon foundation, it's so interesting. But being together and just deconstructing together, it's been really helpful and therapeutic to have people.
John Dehlin [01:57:04] So where did you both come out on the church's truthfulness and the truth claims if you had to summarize the conclusion of your deconstruction?
Larissa Kindred [01:57:12] Oh, I mean, I think that I was fully like, this is the making of Joseph Smith. What is the churches like? This was created by Joseph Smith. And I, I think that I. I think the first thing that I fully, fully lost my faith in was, like, priesthood authority and that anybody can tell me, you know, what God is saying. And, and, you know, I, as. I'm learning about, like, patriarchy or about, you know, these types of structures. One thing, One thing that I have learned is that people who are marginalized or who, you know, like, if you've been oppressed or if you, you know, haven't had opportunities, it actually gives you, like, more insight, right? Because you've had experiences and gone through hard things. And so, you know, I grew up thinking that the church leaders, they knew all these things and that they could talk to God. And I came to the point where I was like, no, I think that I probably know better than you because. Because. Because of my experience. I'm a woman of color. You know, I'm a woman in the church. I grew up poor. Like, these are all things. And these. The men who are leading the church have lived fairly privileged lives, and they were put in church leadership early. And, you know, we all love Uchtdorf, but Uchdorf is a refugee. And so, like, this is probably why we love him, is because he has a different viewpoint. But there's so many people in church leadership that I think have a very, very privileged viewpoint. And I think it actually makes it so that they can even understand less about the world and how it works than I do. And so that. That. That was the first that. I think that was one of the major parts of my testimony that absolutely crumbled. And I knew that I couldn't sit in a temple recommend interview and say, like, yes, I sustained them as prophet seers and revelators because I. I completely did not believe that that was true.
John Dehlin [01:59:02] Okay.
Jeff Kindred [01:59:04] And, I mean, when it came down, for me, I think it all came down. I still think Joseph Smith is such a fascinating, fascinating person. I mean, and I can't remember where I was listening, but they were talking about Chad Daybell and Lori Valo, and they were saying what they. I think they're asking a psychologist, this might have been on your thing, and said, what is it that they were seeking for, like, psychologically, what was it? And they said they wanted to be special. They wanted to be more special. And Joseph Smith, right, he wanted. He was a. He was a simple farm boy, run of the mill, and I think he always wanted to be special. And it's amazing what he did. I mean, I mean, to cobble all of these things from different places and to bring them together the way they did. I mean, it's amazing. I think that if he wouldn't have been murdered, I think that it would have imploded on itself, because I just think that he was. I think you were seeing the makings of, like, a Warren Jeffs type situation. But luckily, I think for him and for the church, it ended. He ended before that could happen. And I think that gave Mormonism A path forward. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's what I think. But he still is a fascinating person. But I don't believe. I mean, there's no way I believe any of the truth claims of the church at this point.
John Dehlin [02:00:24] So, lightning round. So God came to Joseph in the first vision. Your response would be, absolutely not. Why?
Jeff Kindred [02:00:34] I don't believe it. I think there was too many people at the time that were having experiences like that. We didn't hear him talk about it for years afterwards. The first account didn't have God and Jesus. I mean, there's just. I mean, that's just too many holes.
John Dehlin [02:00:47] Okay. And Angel Moroni.
Larissa Kindred [02:00:49] No, no, you're fine.
John Dehlin [02:00:50] Angel Moroni delivers golden plates and the Book of Mormon is translated. I mean, so many people are like, well, you may. You may struggle with race issues or LGBT issues, but, like, how do you explain the Book of Mormon? You know?
Jeff Kindred [02:01:02] Well, the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is trickier, but you can still. I mean, there's no question it's fantastic in the way that it came together. I think we're told so often how special it is in the church, that makes it special, because I think when people outside the church read it, they're like, no, that's weird. It's not. It doesn't feel that special or that divine. But we're told how special it is. But if God really wanted us to believe that he had an angel give golden plates to this young boy and translate it, why would you make so many holes and make it so hard to believe? And even the witnesses that you have didn't get to see it. They got to see it like a city through a hill. I mean, come on. It's just too many holes. That is just. To me, it's like. Like, if God is really this sneaky, he's an asshole. I mean, really, I feel like if he makes it that hard to find his one truth, if he makes it that obscure to find his one truth, then something isn't adding up. Or he's a trickster, and that doesn't make sense to me.
John Dehlin [02:02:08] Book of Abraham?
Larissa Kindred [02:02:11] Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think that once we kind of, like, broke down, like, Joseph Smith made it up, or, you know, he had source material. I think everything is just like, there's not a thing that we believe. You know, I think that, you know, like, we listened to all the things about what the Book of Abraham was, and, you know, he said it was something different. But now, then they found the source material. So, you know, like these are all things that kind of fit together with like what Joseph Smith was, was building. And so, yeah, I mean we don't believe any of it.
Jeff Kindred [02:02:46] So it was a translation. But now, now it's apparently a revelation. I mean, yeah, so just lots of, lots of holes in.
John Dehlin [02:02:53] Look at me.
Jeff Kindred [02:02:54] Oh, I think it's awful. I mean, I really do. I think that, you know, the whole thing I think was Joseph Smith creating this world. And I mean you look at Warren Jeffs and I know people say that are in the church. It's so different. It wasn't that much different. It's just he didn't get that far down the path. I mean it wasn't nice. And you don't see someone's husband down the path.
John Dehlin [02:03:22] You got like 30 to 40 wives down the path.
Jeff Kindred [02:03:25] But Warren Jeffs, I mean, making this into a ceremony in the temple with these young girls and people standing there, I mean, but were they headed there? Maybe? I mean that's how weird it was. And then Joseph Smith sending men away and then marrying their wives or manipulating to marry their daughters. I mean that is not. You can't tell me that God, with all of the things going wrong in the world and all the suffering in the world, he is so concerned that Joseph Smith send this man away so he can marry his wife. Come on. Like, what kind of a God is that? That, that, that doesn't make sense to me.
Larissa Kindred [02:03:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:58] So modern day prophets and one true church and priesthood authority.
Margi Dehlin [02:04:02] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:04:02] Nope.
Jeff Kindred [02:04:03] No, no, no, no, no, no. And you know, this was, this is hard because I told you when Laurency done told us, I, I know God lives. I really believed that the prophets saw God when I was on my mission. I believed that they actually met with God. And, and you remember Bruce R. McConkey's last testimony. And I would show that to investigators to like show them that we have a prophet. We have prophets who, who know God. They've seen him. So this is his church. And that's devastating to me. I feel like this was part of the thing that crumbled. And some people are like, well, you can't take it. It's like the church told us it was literal. Like it makes me so upset because I feel like they're trying to change the narrative on me. And it's like, no, you told me that's what it was. So now you're trying to tell me, well, you're taking it too literal. You can't believe that. It's like, no, you're the one that made Me do that. So I get really. Yeah, that's really hard for me. But I don't, I do not think, I think if you created a church that was led by 70 and 80 and 90 year old white men, it would look like our, the Mormon Church looks today, and it would move as slow as the Mormon Church moves today. And that's what we have.
John Dehlin [02:05:08] So. So when people say, well, these modern day prophets talk and speak with God and Jesus, you're saying that's not true.
Jeff Kindred [02:05:17] It's absolutely not true.
John Dehlin [02:05:18] And how would you know?
Jeff Kindred [02:05:20] Well, or what makes you think, you know, there was an interesting. There was an interesting. Because this is so funny, I feel like the apostles are catching themselves because I think you played the conference of one of the apostles trying to infer that he is. Or maybe this was on Mormon discussions. They were playing one of the Mormon. No Mormon discussions. When they were playing one of the apostles who was giving a thing and talking about how they know they can't talk about the experience. They can't talk about the experience, but you can trust them that they know that. Like, and that's just inferring that they're talking to God. But then they were pinning down. There was a guy who was talking to Elder Bednar in the airport a few weeks ago and he had recorded the conversation. And Elder Bednar's saying, no, that's church members misunderstanding that we talk to God. We're not, we're not special witnesses of Jesus Christ. We're special witnesses of the name of Christ. And it's like, oh my gosh, like, come on. Like, again, you just keep changing the narrative. Even today they're changing it depending on who they're speaking to. And, and I don't like that. It's not honest. And again, it comes back to, you got to look yourself in the mirror and, and, and admit who you are and who you're not. And if you're not willing to do that, then you can't expect the members to do that. And, and I don't think they are.
Larissa Kindred [02:06:38] And, and a church that's led by. If you were led by God. And this is something that I think really struck me in Shannon Montez's interview is she was saying, why are we always behind? You know, like, why are we not leading the way? And this was kind of what I mean, leading the way. And like, like, why are we not leading the way in like women's issues or LGBTQ or like human rights issues? Civil rights. Yeah. Like, why are we always behind? Like, how come the civil rights was happening and people. Markey Peterson was saying that, you know, Martin Luther King was a communist, you know, and so I feel like we're always, like, 30 years behind. Like, why are we not leading the way on, like, teaching Sec he healthy sexuality? Why. Why are we. Why. Why is the church always behind? And I think that's, for me, a clear indication, like, our church, the messaging of our church is from people who came of age in the 1950s. It's, like, right in line with, like, the values and the morals and the ideas of the 1950s. And so that makes sense. And I think the church will probably, like, slowly evolve and change, but. But it's always just a little bit behind, a lot behind. A lot behind what everybody else is. That's not what they were supposed to do. That was supposed to be the point of having a prophet. Right. So that we could lead the way in, like, righteousness and morality. And maybe I have a different version of righteousness and morality than what the church believes, but obviously that means that there's not a place for me in the church because my values and the things that I believe are right are things that the church is behind on.
Jeff Kindred [02:08:10] And do you think it would be important for God to tell a prophet if the church's headquarters in Salt Lake City that the Great Salt Lake drying up might be an issue? I mean, why am I hearing this for the first time from the New York Times this year or John Larsen on Mormon stories, then hearing it from the prophets, seers and revelators? I mean, to me, it's like, again, it's chef's kiss of, like, just perfect of what are you seeing? What are you prophesying of? Because that would be. Seem like something that would be important for us, for the church headquarters here in Salt Lake City to be aware of and to say, hey, we need to take some preemptive actions 20 years ago so that the Great Salt Lake doesn't dry up. Because we see this being a potential catastrophe situation.
John Dehlin [02:08:51] The church would have to have influence with the state legislature.
Jeff Kindred [02:08:54] That's too much. You can't go there. They don't get involved in the politics. Right, I forgot about that.
John Dehlin [02:09:00] Well, we just got a tiny bit cynical.
Jeff Kindred [02:09:02] Sorry.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:02] I apologize.
John Dehlin [02:09:04] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you fully deconstructed?
Larissa Kindred [02:09:10] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:09:11] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:09:11] And then, you know, the other thing that's hard is. And maybe the most challenging thing when this all happens is wondering, well, what do we believe? Especially with regard to the afterlife? You know, what this idea that we're going to be Together. Oh, you're.
John Dehlin [02:09:25] No, no. Well, I totally want to get there. Margi's back. Hey, Margi. So glad you're back. And, Margi, it's just in time because Margi's favorite part is the reconstruction. Okay.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:34] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:09:34] I want to just drive one final nail home.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:09:36] Larissa's. So much of your episode was about your feminist awakening.
Larissa Kindred [02:09:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:09:42] And I just want to say, like, there are so many problems. The racism, the LGBT stuff, the. The. The lying about, the history, the problematic history, the truth claims. Like, isn't it mind blowing in 2022 that, like, in every other. Imagine corporations that had a policy that women couldn't be in the executive leadership or on the board of directors or schools where women couldn't be principals or vice principals. Isn't it mind blowing that in a church that claims to be led by God and Jesus that still in 2022, women, an entire gender.
Larissa Kindred [02:10:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:10:23] Is completely disenfranchised from leadership and nobody bats an eye.
Larissa Kindred [02:10:29] Right.
John Dehlin [02:10:29] And the women who are in it are probably more against women leadership than the men are. Isn't it just like. Yeah, blows the mind.
Larissa Kindred [02:10:39] Well, this is why I feel like patriarchy is almost like the foundation of the church. And it's so ingrained that. Yeah. I think that, like. I think that we almost, like, aren't talking about or we don't see it enough. And patriarchy can only be perpetuated when women are complicit in this. You know, like, women are. We're a substantial enough group of people that we could be like, no, we fight against this, so it has to be perpetuated by women. But, yeah, I think that the lack of representation of women in the church is so. Causes, like, so many issues, even on. On small levels. Because, like. And, yeah, you could never get away with this, like, any. Anyplace else. And I know that they're just barely starting to put, like, the general women into. Into certain committees, but they're only there for a couple years, so you don't have a chance to really build something or really influence or create a legacy or anything like that. But one thing that's interesting to me is that I think that you can even see the. The small damages of not having women on high levels of the church, even in little things like. Like female missionaries. So, Mo, I think Even more than 50 of the missionaries now are women. And, you know, everybody gets the same amount of money for their. Every month. Yeah. Their stipend that they get every month. But women women missionaries are going to have to wear. They have. They menstruate. And so they're going to have to buy pads and tampons, which are fairly expensive. And then you also have other issues, like you might have a bleeding incident and you might need to buy more garments or something. And so, like, women have more expenses or makeup. Yes.
John Dehlin [02:12:17] And they're told.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:18] They're told that they should. That they should be wearing makeup. And so women have more expenses, but they're getting the same amount of money. And if there was ever a woman sitting in the missionary committee, and I listened to. Is it Camille Johnson? That was the. She was like an executive assistant for. And you interviewed her and anyways.
John Dehlin [02:12:35] Oh, for an executive assisted towards the general authorities.
Larissa Kindred [02:12:38] Yeah, yeah. And she. So she said that as of 2019, there is still not a woman on the missionary committee. So I know there are some women on missionary committees, but. So. So you're gonna miss very, very important things about the woman's experience. And we've got all these women right now. We had that New York Times article about women, LDS women and how they relate to their garments. And women are just, just, like, venting about how miserable they are. And it's because they're made by men for men. And so we are not even addressing, like, what the woman's experience is within the church. The church, I don't think can even see it because it's not represented. So I think it's in small ways, but it's also in big ways. But, yeah, it's. So for me, like, once I started to understand the system and what it looks like, it just. For me, it went so, so, so deep that I was just like. Like, no, I can't be a part of this. I can't participate. But it is frustrating because I think that it is so commonplace and normalized that you don't. That people don't see it. It happens, you know, like, it's just part of everyday life.
John Dehlin [02:13:38] Yeah. Yeah. And it's outrageous and it is. And people don't even really think about it. Yeah, it's. It's like the patriarchy is the water we're swimming in.
Larissa Kindred [02:13:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:13:47] Nobody even notices the water. Yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to say about your deconstruction before we get to Margi's favorite part, which is the reconstruction?
Telling Family, Birth Mothers, and Community Reactions
Jeff Kindred [02:13:57] Do we. Do we want to share? So when we. When we left the church, we spoke to all of our birth moms, because that was.
Larissa Kindred [02:14:04] I think.
John Dehlin [02:14:05] I think.
Larissa Kindred [02:14:05] I think this will be part of our reconstruction.
Jeff Kindred [02:14:07] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:14:09] Did you tell did you write the letter? Did you tell all the people in your ward, all the people in your stake, all your family members? How did you. How did you come out as leaving the church? Or did you.
Larissa Kindred [02:14:18] So we.
John Dehlin [02:14:18] Or is this your coming out?
Larissa Kindred [02:14:20] We didn't. So we, we knew that everybody in our stake would know. Like, we just. I mean, it was. We. We were involved in so many, like, extra things. We knew that people would know. And so, you know, like, we told our close friends, and then we. We met with certain leadership, and we were like, hey, we're, we're. We're out. And then we kind of, like, slowly told family members. So there. There's eight kids in my family, and I'm the. The sixth to leave the church. And since me, my older sister also have left. So now there's. There's seven out of the eight that have left the church, and Jeff has one sister that's kind of progressive and nuanced, and then one that's in the church, and then two have left. So we kind of like. Like, we have, you know, a lot of our siblings have left the church, and so we kind of, like, told family as it.
Margi Dehlin [02:15:08] As.
Larissa Kindred [02:15:08] As we kind of, like, got the courage to. To talk about it. My mom is still very, very hardcore in the church, so that was a difficult thing for her. But, so, yeah, so we started telling people. But, yeah, so our birth moms are actually an interesting thing, an interesting part of our story, because we feel like they had placed their babies with us with an understanding that they wanted their baby placed with an LDS couple and, you know, somebody where the baby could be sealed. And so even though our birth moms weren't very active, we didn't know what impact this would have, and we didn't know if they would feel like we were breaking our part of the agreement of the adoption.
John Dehlin [02:15:53] So was your faithfulness in the church an important part of why they chose you as parents for their kids?
Larissa Kindred [02:15:59] I. I think we didn't really know. I mean, I think initially they were looking for an LDS couple, and they wanted, you know, they wanted their kids to be sealed to a family. And, you know, they wanted. I know that, like, our son's birth mom, like, his family had often been like, oh, you know, like, we're excited for Beck to go on a mission. And so we knew that there was some expectation that we were not fulfilling with. With us leaving the church. So. So our youngest son, his name is golden, and his. His birth mom, she had to find out first because right after we decided to leave. Golden turned 8, and we had planned.
Jeff Kindred [02:16:42] We had prepped him.
Larissa Kindred [02:16:43] We had prepped him that he was going to get baptized. And so he was gearing up for it, and he had gone to, like, the great to be eight thing. And he. He was six years old when Covid happened, and so we didn't think that he was even equating baptism with the church, but he really wanted to be baptized because his big brother and sister had been baptized. And so all of our family had done it, and, you know, Jeff had baptized them, so he was very invested in being baptized. So we were kind of in this. And then his birth mom had, like, bought plane tickets for, like, her and her and her fiance and her three girls to come out and be with us during Golden's baptism. So we knew that we kind of, like, had to tell her something, because we were like, she's coming out here, and we're not. We're not going to have a baptism. And so. And so we actually. This is kind of like. This is another, like, funny story about us leaving. So golden was very invested in his baptism, but we just. We just could not feel good about doing any type of thing. And so. But he wanted to be baptized, so we decided that we would do, like, a fake baptism.
Jeff Kindred [02:17:52] So we took him to a swimming pool. Well, first, I'll tell. I called Nicole, our birth mom, and I didn't know how. You know, I didn't know how it was gonna go. I think I had a. You know, I think she'd. I thought she'd be fine with it, but when I told her, and she was like, oh, thank goodness. She's like, I'm actually really glad. She was, like, relieved, but her.
John Dehlin [02:18:11] Relieved What?
Larissa Kindred [02:18:12] That we had left.
Jeff Kindred [02:18:13] That we had left because she knew of the issues that had caused her. She had recognized these.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:18] So we didn't know this. She had fully deconstructed as well. So she had, like, gone through a thing, but we didn't know.
Jeff Kindred [02:18:25] So that was. Yeah, that was quite nice to have that conversation and her to feel. I mean, she didn't know we were going through anything, so we could really have this.
John Dehlin [02:18:34] Okay. So one of the birth moms had left the church.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:37] Yeah. So she. So she came out, and we went to our friends, had a swimming pool. And so we got golden in his little baptism clothes, and we.
Jeff Kindred [02:18:47] He baptized him to be a follower of Jesus.
Larissa Kindred [02:18:49] So Jeff just said, like, I baptized you to be a follower of Jesus. Yeah, to follow the principles of Jesus. And then he, like, dunked him and go. And at this point, golden is just like, yep.
Jeff Kindred [02:18:58] He has no idea. Yeah, he has no idea because he
Larissa Kindred [02:19:01] wanted to be baptized, but we were like, we can't. We can't do, like, a church one. So I don't know if this is going to get us in trouble, but we did a fake baptism, so it's not fake.
Jeff Kindred [02:19:10] Yeah, yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:19:11] Why is it not fake? Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:19:12] You did your own baptism.
Jeff Kindred [02:19:14] It was our way.
John Dehlin [02:19:15] Now we're doing it.
Larissa Kindred [02:19:16] All right, so. So I actually wanted.
John Dehlin [02:19:18] Probably more real, actually.
Larissa Kindred [02:19:19] Yeah, maybe. So I actually. My art. So Golden's birth mom actually wrote down something for me, and I. I actually just want to read it on here because after. After we found out that she had deconstructed, we were talking to her and I was noticing, like, that I actually felt like there was less hierarchy in our relationship with our birth moms as well. Like, with her once. Once we'd kind of broken down this thing, like, we're not the super righteous people now. We all left the church. So now we're. Now we're kind of like equals in this. And so I had felt like we were on a more like, equal basis with her. And it was really interesting. It made me feel like I could be even closer with her and that we could connect and that we were really, really better team members, like, as. As people who loved this child. And so I just asked her. I was like, hey, I'm really interested in your experience. So she actually wrote something down for me about her experience placing and. And then what. How this affected our relationship. So. Yeah. Is this okay if I read this just for a second? So this is from. This is from our youngest son's birth mom. She says, and this is going to be emotional for me, she says. One word that comes to mind when I think of my experience with placing golden for adoption in the church is just shame. I got divorced and I had three kids, so I couldn't fit in the singles award since I was damaged goods. And being in a family ward, I didn't connect with people because women don't know how to befriend me because they didn't have the double date excuse. So she had gotten married and had three kids and then was divorced. And then she got pregnant with golden and placed Golden. So she has three girls from a previous marriage.
John Dehlin [02:20:50] Oh, wow.
Larissa Kindred [02:20:51] Religion ties deeply with my ocd. So for the most part, I wasn't a huge believer in the LDS church, but I was afraid to question it or explore other ideas. And I felt I had to go for my children's safety. When I was pregnant and I went through everything and decided on adoption, I went from being pitied as a young single mom to being viewed like a dumb girl that got what she deserved. I was pitied by all the church members and I was never respected, just a woman adding more damaged goods to her pile. I too felt like I deserved to suffer because I should have known better. Since I had been through the temple, no one tried to connect with me as a human. It was just an obligation to ask me how I'm doing. It was a big turning point for me. When I talked to my bishop during my pregnancy and after I had decided to place the baby for adoption, he never checked to see if I needed counseling or how my mental health or emotional needs were met. He instead got his Book of Mormon and turned to different verses and said it was time for me to begin the repentance process because premarital sex is a sin as terrible as murder in God's eyes. After time had passed and golden was born, my biggest fear and driving factor to remain in the church was so that God would keep my girls safe. And I worried that if I would show that I didn't learn my lesson, that the Kindred would worry that I was becoming a bad person and would not let golden have a relationship with me so he wouldn't be tempted to fall away from the church. I found myself worrying constantly about how I look to everybody around me and having to explain that. That I'm sorry and I needed to explain my past in order to show that I am worthy to eat a damn piece of bread and a little shot of water every Sunday, it was exhausting. When I finally began my process of completely removing myself from the church and I had to do it in stages and I found that I was hiding from a lot of people. There were the. There were people closest to me that I was terrified of telling. There are still people I haven't told because I know that they will disown me. The Kindred were the ones I was so scared to talk to about leaving the church because I didn't want to let them down. It's a hard process to differentiate. What my personal beliefs were and what happened has been ingrained in me my whole life because of the LDS culture. It's an ongoing process as well, and probably will be for a long time. And then she says, I feel like I connect with the Kindred on such a deeper level now because of all the weird imaginary boundaries that that we were supposed to follow in the church have been removed, and we can really talk as humans that respect one another. Anyway, so. So she sent this to me, and I just. I wanted to read this because. Because I. It just is so heartbreaking to me that she felt like if she left the church, maybe we wouldn't let her be with golden anymore. We wouldn't let her see golden or have access to him. And it breaks my heart, but at the same time, that is. That it's reasonable. That's like a reasonable concern for her. And so when we look at our deconstruction of the church and realizing how it had harmed our relationship, I think. Think as we started to let our birth moms know, I think that we also realized that it had created hierarchy and separation in our other relationships as well. It had kept us from connecting because we were kind of like the righteous people that we had. Our lives together, so you can give your baby to us. And it was just so. It's been so beautiful to talk to our birth moms and to discuss this with them and just be on the same level with them and just say, like. Like, we're doing this. We made this agreement together, and we're just all about these kids, and we're not better than you. We're just all in it together, and things are just more equal now.
Jeff Kindred [02:24:27] I feel like the hierarchy is something that is just so ingrained in the church, too. Right. We're always placing ourselves somewhere in this thing. And Joseph Smith, even heaven's like that, where we have degrees in heaven. Right. And there's degrees within the degrees in heaven. I mean, it's just hierarchical and it's not healthy.
John Dehlin [02:24:45] And Jeff, you're. You're obviously feeling emotional. Do you want to share what you're feeling? Just.
Jeff Kindred [02:24:48] Oh, I just. It. It is just. It's just really heartbreaking to. To hear that and to know that, again, these. She said, imaginary boundaries. It is. It's these things that the church tells us are so important, and they're so. And. And you remove those. You're like. You think your life's going to fall apart, and it's like, oh, my gosh, it takes so much pressure and so much of these weird things that we've, like, it's created out, and then you can just be real and nice and not have to be judging others. I've noticed that so much in the things I do that I. Man, I just feel like I was so judgmental of so many things, and it's so nice not to have to feel like that anymore, and I still catch myself. And. And even with members, I have to try and. You know, because it gets easy to judge members, and I. And. And I have to catch myself.
John Dehlin [02:25:41] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:42] Thank you so much for reading that.
Larissa Kindred [02:25:44] Oh, yeah, yeah, of course.
John Dehlin [02:25:45] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:46] As you were reading it, I was thinking about how. How true it is that as we kind of deconstruct, we feel oftentimes like a barrier has been removed that allows us to kind of. And as you were talking, Jeff, about that hierarchy in relationship, it's in marriage, too. So the same thing that happened with your. Happens with your spouse. It happens with your kids, too. You have this sense of, like. And what happens, like, when you deconstruct and you see this divide that has existed through roles or, you know, whatever, you know, kind of makes up the hierarchical. But just. It's a new day. It's a new day, I think, for many of us in our marriages, then, with our kids, with friends who are not members, with, you know, where you're able to kind of really deeply feel for and connect on a new level. Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:26:47] Yes. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing and thank you to your. The birth mom.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:51] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:26:52] I'm sure she knows you were gonna read that.
Larissa Kindred [02:26:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted. I wanted her.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:57] Her.
Larissa Kindred [02:26:57] Her words to be said because, yeah, they have a. These girls have a really powerful experience that they've gone through. And. And it's so sad, you know, when we talk about hierarchy. You know, like, she's a. She's a woman who got pregnant out of wedlock and is completely shamed for it, but then she places her baby, which, you know, as we were talking before, like, it is so incredibly Christlike to go through this thing and to be hurting and to have pain and to sacrifice your body for so that your, you know, your child can be raised by somebody else. And I just. I just cannot get over this, this bishop of hers sitting down and telling her that, like, now you gotta work through repentance. Like, that bishop could never do what she had done. You know, like, he couldn't do what she had done. These women should be put up on a pedestal, but they're just being shamed in the church. And anyways. And so, yeah, I feel like this. This is. This was part of our. One of the really nice parts of us leaving and rebuilding is that we've seen that, like you said, this hierarchy had taken out of relationships, and we're just able to connect more as human beings on, you know, on a. On a better level.
John Dehlin [02:28:03] Yeah, Beautiful. Really quickly, one of the. You know, the fact that, Jeff, you had served seven years in bishoprics or more and in stake high councils, young. Young men's presidencies, worked with the youth. The fact you. Larissa, had served in relief society presidencies and probably young women's presidencies. One of the most difficult things to hear is just once. Once the wards and stakes that you served for so long find out you've left the church. Just what happens to those relationships is. Is. I guess it hasn't been super long, but can you share how this has affected your friendships and social circles? You know, there in. In Nashville?
Larissa Kindred [02:28:53] I. I do think it's really, really hard, especially when you've given so much to the church. And, you know, we mentioned this, like, kind of when we were talking about how we were kind of on the hamster wheel, but we were like a mon pawn track. And I. So I. And I. I DJ the steak. Like, the steak dances. So, like, I'm DJing the dances, and, like. Like, we're doing the things, and then, like, I'm making T shirts for the youth. The youth council. And. And, like, we're doing. We're not just doing our callings. We're giving. We literally are doing what they told us to do in the temple. We are literally giving everything to the church. And it's just so shocking that when you leave, it's like, it never mattered. It doesn't matter. Because, I mean, and there's. There's some people that are good and genuine and kind, but it's amazing. The silence, it's so deafening, you know, that it's just like, no one is talking to me. Why did it not matter? Like, it didn't matter, like, what we gave. It really feels like that. And it does change relationships, which is really hard because there are some relationships where I was like, no, it's fine. Like, we. Like, we got this. Like, we're gonna make it through and then some. But it isn't fine. You know? Like, it really does. It changes relationships. And I think that once. Once you're in something together and somebody leaves, it can feel invalidating to those that stayed. And that's something that I feel like I've experienced with my friends, is that, you know, like, it. It feels. I think it probably feels threatening to them that we left. And so there's things now that we can't talk about anymore. But it is so hard to feel that just, like, you're. You're cut off. Cut off from this, and we've had,
Jeff Kindred [02:30:36] and we have a few friends who have responded really, really well. And still we stay in contact. One of the guys I cycle with who was our former stake president, and him and his wife have been just so normal about it, which is nice, but I think it is. It's awkward. And I will give grace to the people out of the church. Cause it's hard. This is a foundation that you share together. And once that foundation is gone, you wonder, like, what do we say? Where do we. And it's awkward for me as it is for them, I'm sure, because those are things that used to be easy to connect about things, but now, I don't know. They don't know where I stand. So it's really. I mean, everything has to be superficial. And it's kind of easier that way, right? Or you just don't talk. And so I don't. I don't know if I blame a lot of people. I mean, one person that I was pretty close with and I told him, and I said, hey, we're actually. This was like the Sunday said, were you traveling today on the High Council? And I said, oh, no, actually, we've been going through a lot. And I've actually decided to step away. And he's like, oh. He's like, I actually was wondering if you were going through some things. That was it. Never another question since then. And again, I don't blame him.
Larissa Kindred [02:31:56] I think a lot of times people don't know what to say. So I don't think they're. I don't think anyone's trying to be harsh. And the church has created a narrative around people that leave that isn't very nice. And so I think it makes it so that people don't know what to say. And so I don't. I don't think. Yeah, I don't. I don't really blame the members. And I don't think that it's because they're terrible people and they just cut us out. But it's like, we don't know how to handle it. We don't know how to talk about it. And so it just makes it so that you do feel cut off.
Jeff Kindred [02:32:24] But again, you have to ask yourself, why. Why would it be such a huge deal to leave a church? When I talk to people at work, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I left my church, like, oh, do you want to come to ours? You know, it's no big deal to leave a church. But I'm like, no, you don't understand. You don't get it. Like, this is, like, it makes. Every decision you make on a daily basis is influenced by this. And so it's just. It's so much different. And why, you know, the church has. Why is it such a huge deal when someone leaves the church? And why do we create this narrative that even this past conference, I mean, several talks about people who leave the church and they weren't willing to do this or they weren't willing to do that. I mean, come on. That's just. That's not going to help. So I blame the institution, not the people.
John Dehlin [02:33:15] Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:16] I have a quick question around the deconstruction kind of process and what you felt. What if you had to describe your experience around sort of this deconstruct? And I know your time periods are a little bit different. Right. But just whatever, like, whatever emotions came up for you. I'm curious what it felt like.
Jeff Kindred [02:33:41] For me, I would say reeling, like, loss of foundation, like, almost like in this place of. Don't say free fall. But, like, you don't feel like that foundation that was always there, is there. The interesting thing about it, and someone said this, you know, it feels like you're hanging by this tree, and then you let go of the tree and like, oh, there's the ground. It is there. And it seems so scary to let go. And then once you are willing to let go, it wasn't as scary. I thought it was going to be, but the process was disorienting, I think, for sure.
Larissa Kindred [02:34:21] Yeah, that's a good word, disorienting. So I feel like, for me, I feel like there were parts of my deconstruction that were very liberating because I feel like I was trying to align because I think I had really tried to develop what are my personal values and what do I think is right? What are my beliefs? And then does the church align with this or does it not align with this? And so for part of me, it was liberating. But I also feel like the summer that we were really, really digging in and getting into church history, I felt like I was in an existential crisis because I was really like, what is real and what do we believe? And I went through a very sad, like, little while where I was, like, really upset because I was like, we're not gonna be together. Like, maybe we're not gonna be together forever. Like, I don't even know. I don't know if there's an afterlife anymore. That. That was something that was really hard for me. And I also went through I think this was a long time. Is that for a little while I was like, is everything that I've done up to this point in my life, did it. Was it. Did it matter? You know, like, I worked so hard for something that now I'm finding out isn't what I thought it was. And now it. I mean, it really made me feel like, is my life been just a joke up to this point? And I really had to get to the place. And I think this is where. Where we start talking about reconstruction is I had to get to the place where I was like, no, I. I had help. I had good relationships. Like, I did connect with people. And even if maybe I wasn't in a place that I think is good now, I did think it was a good place at the time. So I think that there's value to that because I was trying my best with what I knew. And then. And you know, now, now I know better. And so now I'm going to try to do better in a different way. But, but. But it's very hard to square with your life and to say, I have put so much time and effort into something and to even question and say, did I damage other people? Did I? Did I. I know I contributed to some of the messaging that isn't healthy. So I know that I was like, complicit in this. And those are really hard things to kind of like, deal with about your life.
Margi Dehlin [02:36:20] Yeah. It reminds me of that word reckoning. Yes, that reckoning, as you kind of sort through.
Larissa Kindred [02:36:26] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:36:28] It's so real, it's heavy. So can I really quickly. I'm really interested again in this deconstruction part. If I name. Oftentimes I've talked about the deconstruction process with, like, how it impacts towers, like different parts of our lives. An example would be, like, how we perceive our own identity, our sense of purpose, who we are. Right. Or relationships or our marriage, or existential kind of things of like, like, you know, where do we go? You know, what does it mean? What does it all mean? And grief and loss.
Larissa Kindred [02:37:06] So if I go through each, will
Margi Dehlin [02:37:08] you just tell me which ones you actually felt were impacted during your deconstruction? Is that okay?
Larissa Kindred [02:37:15] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:37:15] Okay. And another one is sort of this sense of self trust too. For many people that's deeply impacted.
Larissa Kindred [02:37:21] Like, how do I trust myself?
Margi Dehlin [02:37:23] How did I miss that? How did I miss all these things? Right. And kind of that's another tower that has to be rebuilt. But what if we started with kind of identity? This Sense of who you are, what's your sense of purpose, what brings you alive? Did it impact both of you? And if so, how. What was your relationship with, how it
Larissa Kindred [02:37:45] impacted that, if it did impacted identity.
Margi Dehlin [02:37:48] Identity.
Larissa Kindred [02:37:48] So I think for me, this may have been like a bigger thing for you, because I think for me, I felt like I was kind of like self betraying in the church for a very long time because I was kind of shoving it down. So I actually feel like I almost had a new sense of like, that I can really embrace my identity and I can, whatever my thing is, I can, I can do that. Because now I wasn't constrained, you know, by feeling like I needed to be a certain thing in the church. And I know that, that not everybody is trying to go that hard in the church like I was, but that was a big thing. So for me, I feel like it was almost a place where I could really embrace my identity, that I kind of had been kind of fleshing out and building the last couple of years. And so for me, I don't necessarily feel like there was any real loss of identity. For me, it was almost kind of like a real embracing and finding of like, this is who I am.
Margi Dehlin [02:38:41] Yeah. Yes.
Jeff Kindred [02:38:43] And. And I would say mine's similar, I
John Dehlin [02:38:45] think, you know, can I just say that's profound. It's. It's not. You lose your identity.
Jeff Kindred [02:38:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:38:50] You. You discover your identity.
Larissa Kindred [02:38:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:38:53] Through this process. Because the whole time the church has been trying to. Not intentionally, but the effects of the Church's indoctrination is to keep you from ever listening to yourself, paying attention to yourself, and discovering your identity.
Larissa Kindred [02:39:06] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:39:07] I feel like it like, removes the obstruction.
Larissa Kindred [02:39:09] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:39:10] Like you're trying to see yourself and there's all this cloudy film that when you deconstruct, it's like, I have clear view.
Larissa Kindred [02:39:18] Look at that. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:39:20] And I think too, it was so interesting making decisions after I had left, because my first instinct every time I think, wait a minute, is that Mormon Jeff or is that me? You know, is that a decision that I want to make or is that the decision that I would have made when I was a member of the church? Because the church made that decision for me. And that was really interesting. And I caught myself every day asking myself, wait a minute, why am I feeling like this? Is this my Mormon conditioning or is this really me feeling like this for a reason? So I think that was helpful for me and it was helpful. I think it was helpful for me on lots of levels. I feel like my relationships, even with People at work have been better because I. Again, I don't feel like I am higher or better or no more or have the truth. I mean, I think all those things are really damaging to relationships and to. To ourselves.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:18] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:40:19] So, babe, do you. Do you feel like you had any issues with, like, I'm not High Council Jeff anymore? Like, did you have anything where you're like, oh, I'm not as special as
Jeff Kindred [02:40:27] I thought it was, But I don't. You know, surprisingly, I don't feel like I was actually thinking about that. Cause I'm like, you know, I think that was always a big thing when you're in the church because that's how you got validation. But I haven't felt that sense of loss in that way. And maybe I'm not recognizing it or maybe. But I don't feel like that. I don't feel like I do.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:46] What about the sense of identity? I feel like you had kind of described your relationship with your mom, and I know you guys moved away and, you know. But was there any hit or anything that came up around kind of being Nephi or the Chosen One or sort of the. Did anything come up with you on the backside with regard to, you know, all those years of what love looked like with you in your family life and your home in particular?
Jeff Kindred [02:41:16] Sorry.
Margi Dehlin [02:41:17] Yeah. So.
Larissa Kindred [02:41:20] Yeah. So Jeff. So Jeff. Jeff actually lost both of his parents in the years. Let's see, one right before COVID and then one during COVID So he had lost both of his parents. And as we were kind of doing our deconstruction, I was. This is something that I was wondering. I was like, would this be different if your parents were alive? Because Jeff had always kind of been the golden boy. And so. So, yeah. This is something that I felt like. I have this question a lot, is like, how would this affected you? Because it's kind of easy. It makes it easier that his parents weren't around to see this.
Margi Dehlin [02:42:01] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:42:02] Because I think it would have been devastating for your parents.
Margi Dehlin [02:42:04] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:42:05] Yeah, I think about that, too. Sorry about my choking fit, by the way.
Larissa Kindred [02:42:09] He's a little cold.
Jeff Kindred [02:42:10] So I think to my mom, and I think it would have been challenging. My dad, for sure. It would have been really hard. My dad and I had a hard time at the end of his life just because of my waning political progressiveness and his doubling down with that dynamic. It was really challenging. And unfortunately it was. Yeah, that was hard. I think back to my mom and. And I wish so badly that my mom could have known the church wasn't true earlier in her life, I think it would have helped her so much. I really think that the shame and the guilt and all of those things, the perfectionism that she was prone to, and she could never live up to it in the church. I actually really think that played into her. She got Alzheimer's fairly young, and, and I think that all played into the stress that played into that. And, and so I think that I wish I could go back and, and have known this and talk to her back then.
Margi Dehlin [02:43:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:43:22] I don't want to minimize it all, your courage, but it's noteworthy. So many people, so many, you know, we learned from the Marlon Jensen, Greg Prince Travis Stratford Faith Crisis study that we did of 3,000 Mormons, ex Mormons, people had lost their faith that we did for the church, that so many of those who lost their faith in the church weren't the weak ones, weren't the Jack Mormons. They weren't the ones who believe too little. They were the ones who believed the strongest. They're the APs on the mission. They're the bishops and stake presidents and even area authorities. And it was their intense level of belief that that led to their very strong disillusionment. But so, so in many ways, it's the best and brightest. But I, it's very, very common for the people that I talk to have lost their faith, to have felt at some point, whether male or a man or woman, to have identified with Nephi and to have played the role in the family of the righteous one, or the noble and great one, or the valiant one, and to see themselves that way, way, and in no way to diminish your courage. Jeff. But I, but I talk to a lot of people who often men, but many times women who lose their faith in Mormonism but because their parents are still alive, they can't. They don't feel like they can make the same decisions you have, because they don't. Either they don't want to disappoint their parents who are still alive, or they don't want to kill their parents who are still alive, or they just don't want to fall from grace and to see their status as a valiant son or daughter be diminished in the eyes of their parents. And so I wonder if your parents having passed away is almost a privilege that maybe allowed you to deconstruct faster than it otherwise might. And even in your case, Larissa, your dad's out. So, so many women that I've done retreats with, it's like if I do this my dad. I'm not going to be daddy's valiant little girl anymore. You didn't. And I'm not trying to diminish your courage, but, But. But you didn't have to deal with disappointing dad.
Larissa Kindred [02:45:38] We've had this conversation that I think, because we have this high level of separation from. I mean, like, we. We love our families, but we moved away early. We've always lived out of state. And so I think that, you know, going through the medical school, his medical school thing together, I think that that kind of created a high level of independence for us as a. As a family unit. But I do think that it's. That it's so much easier because me and my mom, we don't. We don't have a. You know. You know that there was. It was kind of troubled when I was younger, so my mom and I don't have a super close relationship. So I told her, and I know she didn't like it. And I. And I. And she.
Margi Dehlin [02:46:17] We.
Larissa Kindred [02:46:18] We probably won't talk about it ever again, you know, so. So it's. It's not, you know, that's not a thing. And I do. I hear other people. I mean, going through this without your spouse, I think is. Would be absolutely just so difficult. And then if we were in different family situations, yes, I think it would be so much harder. So I do. I do think that this is a level of privilege that we have because we already kind of had this separation from our family. Your parents are gone. Jeff's parents were so proud of him and so happy. And when Jeff was first called to the bishopric, your parents came out to visit us. And his mom was like, I just can't wait to see Jeff sitting on the stand. Like, it was so important for her. And I know that that's problematic, but it was so important for her to see her son in leadership in the church. And so I think that it would. It might even have. It might be even more difficult than we realize, because looking back. But I agree with what you said, I feel like it would be so nice to be like, mom, it's not true. Like, you don't. You can let go of it. Like, all the ways that it's hurting you, like, you can let go of it. But I do think that we are exercising a fairly high level of privilege, and we have. We have a lot of siblings that have left, and we felt like we became closer to them after that. And so. So we're definitely not in the same family situation that many other People are dealing with for sure.
Life After Mormonism and Rebuilding Identity
John Dehlin [02:47:39] And again, please don't take that as me.
Larissa Kindred [02:47:40] No, no.
Jeff Kindred [02:47:41] I don't know. No, no.
Larissa Kindred [02:47:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:47:42] Or work. Because it's been brutal. Right?
Margi Dehlin [02:47:44] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:47:45] I think it's important to acknowledge, though, that, like, it's. It's not. It's not the same for everybody. And some people have a really, really difficult path out of the church.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:53] Yeah. So that's kind of actually relationships tower that we kind of moved into. How about marriage? So some things that commonly can show up as loss is kind of what you were talking about, this sense of, like, would I have made this decision if we weren't, you know, both members, if I were or would we've ever gotten married?
John Dehlin [02:48:18] Right.
Larissa Kindred [02:48:18] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:48:19] Or a woman kind of works on her identity tower and becomes really empowered, and it now creates a new dynamic in marriage. Right. Where the woman now is like. Like, actually, I'm not okay with that. Or really kind of using her voice in a new way. Or intimacy. Intimacy changes. And so did it. Did you feel a sense of. Of loss or. And this is a loss question. We can do the rebuilding kind of later. But a loss in the marriage with regard to deconstructing.
Jeff Kindred [02:48:51] Absolutely. And on multiple levels. I think recognizing our family structure and the dynamic that we had created over 20 years. And that's been challenging and continues to be very challenging to change because, I mean, we're in patterns and ruts of this is the way that it works. And so we've really had to disrupt it. And it has not been. Been easy and still is not easy. And I would say that's. That's our biggest thing that we're battling through right now. I'd say. Would you agree with that?
Larissa Kindred [02:49:27] Yeah. And. And I would say, I don't know that I feel a sense of loss, like, within our relationship. I think that we've had to look at our marriage and. And really say, like, would we have gotten married? You know, like, the church kind of painted this picture for us. So. And. And I mean, we can't ever know that. There's so many factors to this. But I think it's good to look at and say, like. Like, would we have gotten married? Like, if. If I had had a different narrative, would I have wanted kids? You know, like, these are all things that I think we've questioned, But I think since we went through this together, I don't think that I necessarily felt like. Like there was loss in, like, what our relationship was because we felt like we were leaving the church to help our relationship or to kind of preserve our relationship.
John Dehlin [02:50:09] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:50:10] Does that answer the question?
Jeff Kindred [02:50:11] And the. The sexuality, I mean, and we talked about that, and I feel like that has been taking our relationship and opening it up and making it so Larissa and I. There's nothing there that is hidden or that we don't know. And I feel like that has really helped us just from being with each other together and intimacy. I mean, all of it, I think, has been helpful. But breaking down the patriarchal structure that we just internalized and put has definitely been, to me, the most challenging thing in the reconstruction and something that has really taken a lot of. And will continue, I'm sure, to take
John Dehlin [02:50:57] a lot of time.
Margi Dehlin [02:50:58] Yeah. Okay. I just have a couple quick. The other one is parenting. Did you experience any loss? It can be around stability or, you know, something that comes up oftentimes in loss and grief across the board is loss of choice, the sense of, like, what choice I would have made if I actually was aware that it should have been a choice. Or it can be kind of this sense of. Yeah. The beliefs that we may have had when we actually took on a role as. As parents. Have you experienced anything that way?
Larissa Kindred [02:51:38] So I know that I. So we. We. We decided. We kind of made our, like, final decision to leave, and. And we. We had gone out of town for my 40th birthday, and so we were. We were out of town, and then we. And then we. That was kind of when we were like, no, we're doing it. Like, we're going to tell people we're doing it. We're done. So once we came home, I kind of had this real. It was almost like you come into your real life and you're like, whoa. Like, I. I said that we were gonna go, so I kind of had this, like, backslide. But a lot of it was around parenting because I started to feel like, well, what am I gonna teach my kids? And, like, now. Now there's no foundation, and my kids are gonna go off the rails. And so I definitely felt like there was a loss of, like, a program for the kids. Cause, you know, like, there's a very distinct program of, like, do these things look this way, act this way, go to byu, you know, like, get married at this, or do a mission structure. Yeah. So the structure of parenting. And I really. I had a really, like, a few days where I was just, like, sick about it. And I think it was almost like the. The realization that, like, we can go away for the weekend for my birthday and be feeling this. But then you come Back to your real life. And you're like, oh, now I have to actually put this into play. And I'm with my kids again. So I. I really felt like there was a lot of structure or of a program, and that was really hard for me for a little bit.
Jeff Kindred [02:52:58] And I think knowing what your parenting style is, because in the church, again, you have this hierarchy, and you, at least for us, it was very, I think, authoritative. And now you're saying, okay, well, how are we going to parent now? And that's another thing that I think we're still figuring out, because you think, okay, we'll do it this way, but then our kids do something, and it's really easy to click back over into how we used to parent.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:23] That's true.
Jeff Kindred [02:53:24] And so I think that's been challenging. And I actually brought this up a couple weeks ago and said, I think it'd be good for us to read. I think it's a book you had recommended, actually, about parenting. So we can feel like at least we're on the same page and we have a philosophy so we can help check each other. Because that's challenging. It's been challenging.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:43] Yes. I so hear that.
Larissa Kindred [02:53:44] That.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:45] Yeah. How about the existential Tower? For many people, this idea. Sometimes the impact just comes of itself, the afterlife or questions of the universe. And sometimes it actually comes up around death. Either that you experienced of someone you really love in the past, that then you kind of have to re. Kind of look at where you're like, oh, well, I. You know, when my mom passed, I really thought I was gonna see her again or, you know, whatever. And having to kind of update or a death after. Did you feel like that tower was in any way kind of where you felt this sense of loss or reckoning?
Larissa Kindred [02:54:29] I know that I did. That was a big thing for me. It's funny, when I was in the church, I used to get really. I don't know if it's just my type of brain, but I used to get really, really stressed out and upset about when I thought about living forever. Like, that's. That makes me feel very anxious. Like, what am I going to do all that time? Like, what does it feel like to live forever? Like, and am I going to be exhausted? Is there, like, no break? So that would. I don't know. It just kind of was, like, really hard for my brain to get around. But then on the other side, thinking of death with this type of finality was also, like, very upsetting for me. And so, yeah, I feel like I was Definitely. That was something that was really hard for me, was having this kind of existential, like, what does this mean? And even right now, I still feel like I kind of will get freaked out and scared and think, like, what if something happened to Jeff? Because I always thought, like, well, we'll be together forever, so it's okay. And now learning how to sit with this idea that, like, I don't know, like, we may not know and there's good that comes with that. But I think for me, that was a really hard thing. And. And, I don't know, it seems like that was less of a thing for you. Maybe you were more pragmatic about it, but.
Jeff Kindred [02:55:42] Well, it is hard to think about because you think you have all the answers. The answers make you feel nice, but it doesn't mean those answers are true. Right. So I feel like that's been something that I've been able to wrap my hands around and just say, I can be okay with not knowing. And I live my life. We take advantage of the time that we're here and the time we're together, and we try and do good things and treat people good. And then if there's an afterlife, great. If there's not, then I won't know that anyway, so no reason for me to be stressing out about it because there's nothing I can do about it. And then people say, well, what if it's true? Then what are you gonna do? I'm like, if it's true and I get up there and God says, you know what? The Mormon Church was true. I'm gonna. Well, that was a sneaky little. That was a sneaky little thing you pulled on us. No, I have no. I have absolutely no concerns of that. Even though I thought. I actually remember saying this to you is like, how could we live our life out of the church? Not knowing that, you know, not knowing for sure. That didn't take long to, like, to break that down.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:53] Yeah. I think it's so important to kind of take a moment because I do think when people are oftentimes napping, navigating faith transition or faith crisis or what, however you choose to define it for yourself, there's this sense of, like, you know, it feeling so incredibly overwhelming. And I. I just. I like the Towers because it shows you, you know, that it's not just religion. It's not just when we're talking about faith. It's that within Mormonism, it. It's. It touches everything. It's a lens that sort of touches everything. And that's why it can feel so intense and so destabilizing. Absolutely.
Larissa Kindred [02:57:37] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [02:57:37] That's really insightful.
Margi Dehlin [02:57:38] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [02:57:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:57:41] Okay. So, I mean, we've already been talking about the reconstruction elements after the deconstruction some. But I guess, I guess one way to really kind of like end on the most powerful and constructive and positive note is just to talk about general joy and happiness and fulfillment now, because you know the church, there's this idea of learned helplessness where the Church teaches you, where will you go? If it's not this, then you have nothing. There is no happy. You can't be a good parent, you're going to cheat on your spouse, you're going to be a miserable human being. There's no joy and happiness. After leaving Mormonism, where will you go? Stay on the boat. Yeah. And that's what, what I think Marty Seligman calls learned helplessness where like you shock a dog in a circle to the point where you can take the electricity wires off and the dog stays in the circle because they've learned to stay in the circle. So one way to just kind of direct the, the climax or the, or the end of, of this amazing three part series is to talk about the contrast to the Church's assertion that wickedness never was happiness. So you two are officially wicked by Mormon Church standards. There's nothing more wicked than having the truth and then abandoning it. I think that's sons of perdition of the people that once had the light and then lost it. So you are a son and daughter perdition by Mormon Church standards and you should be miserable and loathing in and wallowing in wickedness. But to be serious, are you happy now? Are you healthier now? Obviously Buddhism teaches us that there's always suffering in life and there's no way to escape suffering. We all know that there are plenty of orthodox Mormons that are suffering terribly. So that's all we know. That's not the way. But in what ways are you healthier and happier now? And in what ways are you maybe worse off or not as happy and healthy? Let's go there.
Larissa Kindred [02:59:42] So I'm going to use our son as a way to kind of like illustrate this because we haven't talked about our son yet, but this will be a good illustration on kind of like what we found outside of Mormonism. So our oldest son was 14 when we left and had just turned 15 at this time. So we had been out of the church about six months and we had actually always suspected since he was very young that he Might be gay. And so we had kind of geared up and prepped for this, but he came out to us six months after we left the church and I think that we did, I think that we did pretty good with his coming out because we had kind of prepared for it. But so he, you know, he told us and we, we just said like, thank you for telling us and sharing more of who you are with us. And he, he said, he said, I'm gonna tell you something and then I don't wanna talk about it at all. So, so we just said like, thank you for letting us in. We want to know you and who you are and like, you know, like, we're so proud of you for, you know, like sharing that and being open and we love you. And then we left his room. But, but then that night we were talking and it kind of like, you know, it's funny because this is one of these ways that the Mormon conditioning starts coming through because in my mind I start thinking like, okay, what does this mean? You know, like, what do we gotta do? And I really came to the place where I was like, nothing. Like, it doesn't, it's just that this is just who he is. Like, there's nothing we need to really like do or like gear him. I mean, obviously there are things that we need to do to help support him and make sure that he has what he needs. But I think that this was, turned out to be a really beautiful family moment for us because I felt like I could just love him and say thank you for letting me know you more. And there wasn't any, like, oh no, how is this gonna affect him if he goes on a mission and is he gonna be accepted at byu? And then what does this mean for him in the church? It just took all of those things away.
John Dehlin [03:01:50] And what will the members think? Oh my gosh, I was relief sighted president.
Larissa Kindred [03:01:53] Can I be someone who has a gay son? Yeah, like, can I be that person? And what does that mean? And does that mean that I wasn't a good, you know, strong member of the church because my son was gay? Or, you know, so, so I think that we had this really nice experience with him coming out because that was taken away. Some of those expectations were taken away. And so we could just kind of sit and just be like, this is who you are. And I think that that's really kind of defined like the change in our relationship with our kids is that we don't have to expect them to look a certain way or be a certain way we just need to teach them to be healthy, happy, connected individuals.
Margi Dehlin [03:02:33] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [03:02:35] And I. I think that for me, I. I feel like I'm much healthier. I feel like our relationship is much healthier. I feel like I'm a better parent. I feel like I'm a less judgmental person in general. I feel like I connect better with my people, I work with, with my patients. And I know people can say that sounds. That's ridiculous. That does that. But I really think pulling down these barriers makes a big difference. It really does. And I feel like I'm more open to my own flaws and imperfections and recognizing those and trying to realize what was the church's conditioning and how can I break free of that and try and be a better person and a better partner and not. And so all of those things, I feel like, yes. That it's been a positive.
Margi Dehlin [03:03:34] Can I give you each a moment to just sort of celebrate yourselves and just share, if you can, some small victories that. That means something to you in rebuilding. You know, there are oftentimes during rebuilding, we're oftentimes reframing or reclaiming or, you know, growing in new ways or healing, you know, from. Are there any things that kind of stick out individually or, you know, in partnership victories along the way of rebuilding?
Larissa Kindred [03:04:11] So we talked a little bit about this yesterday, about. Maybe I'll just tell this story really quick about my son who came out as gay a little while ago. He told me he wanted to get his ears pierced. And so Mormon Larissa, that is still inside of me, was trying to come out and say, like, no, you're not getting your ears pierced. I don't like that. And we gotta look clean cut. And there's a certain way. So I kind of recognized this while he was telling me this. And my daughter has her ears pierced. And so I'm also aware, like, I can't do a gender double standard and say, like, she can have her ears pierced, but you can't.
John Dehlin [03:04:53] Yeah. Immediately my mind went to, like, well, he's too young. You gotta wait till he's 18. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute. We pierced the ears of, like, seven year olds, right?
Larissa Kindred [03:05:00] Yeah. Yeah. So my daughter actually has her. My daughter. My sweet black daughter has alopecia. And so. So she is actually bald right now. And so I let her do multiple piercings on her ears because I want her to have ways to express herself and show individuality. And she can't do that with her hair right now. So, anyway, so, yeah, I. I feel Like, I recognize this as Mormon, Larissa was trying to come out, and so instead of fighting it, I was kind of like, okay, like, we're. We're gonna do this. And so I feel like I have been trying to be aware of when my conditioning is coming out and kind of keeping it at bay. And so I do feel like. I feel like those. Those type. Those experiences, especially with parenting, I feel like those are small victories for me because I am being aware why am I reacting this way? You know, why am I so uncomfortable with this? And is, you know, is there a reason I am afraid of this, or is this just the conditioning that I've had? So I do feel like I've. There's some small victories there.
Margi Dehlin [03:06:04] Would you mind sharing the. I'm sorry, but the victory. Because I feel like this is a victory if you don't mind sharing about the thoughts you had around school and cost. And I feel like that's victory.
Jeff Kindred [03:06:19] Yeah.
Larissa Kindred [03:06:20] Yeah. So when I. So after post breast cancer, I was like, I'm going back to school. And I had heard, you know, about the BYU Pathways program, which is through BYU Idaho. And so I thought, I'll do that because it's cheap and, you know, like, I'm. You know, Jeff. We went into substantial amount of debt for Jeff's medical school, but I was like, you know, whatever. Like, I'm just going back to school, and it's not. It's not super important. I'm just doing it for me. And so I had kind of, like, devalued my own education. And so I was like, yeah, I'll just do this through BYU Pathways. So, of course, this was before our full deconstruction, because obviously, once we left, it would have been problematic to get through an ecclesiastical interview. But so that was how I first started. And then as we kind of like. So I had applied to the program, and I was like, yeah, I'll do this. And I actually had this experience with our therapist when I was talking to him about it, and he said. He goes, what is your, like, wildest fantasy of, like, what you would do for a job? And I was kind of like, I don't know. And this is a sad thing. Cause I think as a woman in the church, you're not even taught to look at that. And so I was like, I don't even know what my fantasy. Like, what's my wildest fantasy of what I want to be when I grow up? And so he said, whatever you think about, that's what you should do. And so When I approached my schooling though, I was kind of like, oh, I'll do a cheap option and they have these ones, but I'll do something like that. But as we were kind of like getting further along with my faith deconstruction, I really thought to myself, you know, what my honest, like my dream is to do women's studies. I want to study gender and women and what's their story and what has shaped, you know, and, and how hierarchy shapes relationships. I want to understand these like, systems and I want to understand women of color. I want to understand trans women. I want to understand like all of these pieces to like, these are just things that I'm very passionate about. And so kind of like at the end of the summer, kind of at the last minute before I would have started with BYU pathways, I was like, no, I'm going to pull out of this program. And so I looked for women's studies programs and there wasn't a good option right around me. And so I was like, I'm going to find an online program. So I found one with the University of Massachusetts. They had developed a really good program and it's fully, they made it so that it can be fully done online, but it was more expensive. And I really, I really had to say, like, no, I, my education is worth it. Like our family can, I can use family resources for my education. And so I'm in school full time right now and I made that change and, and it's been so great. I'm so passionate about the things that I'm learning. It's so me. And so, yeah, that, that is a victory. Margi and I talked about this yesterday where I said, said no, I'm worth it. I'm worth family resources being put toward my education. This matters for us.
Margi Dehlin [03:09:18] Love it. That's up.
John Dehlin [03:09:19] I love it. So you're, so you're pursuing women's studies and getting that degree and following. What's that?
Margi Dehlin [03:09:26] Women and gender.
Larissa Kindred [03:09:27] Yeah, yeah, Women and Gender studies. Yeah. I graduate, I graduate in May, so I'll be, I'll be done with that.
John Dehlin [03:09:31] So in May. That's huge.
Larissa Kindred [03:09:34] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:09:35] Good for you.
Jeff Kindred [03:09:36] And she's killing it.
Larissa Kindred [03:09:37] She.
Jeff Kindred [03:09:38] It's really hard stress, but she's got a 4.0.
Larissa Kindred [03:09:41] It's hard to be a full time student and to have three kids.
Margi Dehlin [03:09:44] I can imagine.
Larissa Kindred [03:09:46] Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky at this, this phase of my life, but, but I'm doing the
John Dehlin [03:09:50] thing, so that's amazing.
Larissa Kindred [03:09:52] Yeah, Good for you. Yeah, thanks.
John Dehlin [03:09:53] Yeah, yeah. What's it like to be following a passion that you choose?
Larissa Kindred [03:09:58] Oh, yeah. Yeah, it. It does. Yeah, it does. It feels amazing. It feels. It feels like it's good and authentic to me. And so, yeah, I think this is. This is a good thing for me to learn to take up space and to do my thing and pursue it. And I think it's healthy, as we're trying to rebuild in our marriage, for Jeff to say, like, no, I'll support you. Like, I'm gonna make this happen for you. And we've kind of tried to restructure our life a little bit, so, like, you know, Jeff is more involved with, you know, like, we're having a more, you know, equal partnership and caring for the kids.
Margi Dehlin [03:10:30] Like, redefining.
Larissa Kindred [03:10:31] Yes. Yep. Yeah, that's been a huge part. And it has. That has been pretty. That has been rocky, but. And it's an ongoing process, but. But that's kind of where we are right now is trying to identify where. Where there's problematic areas and where we want to, like, rebuild and make things better. And I feel like my schooling is a big part of that because I think that it requires kind of you and the kids to say, like, we need to.
John Dehlin [03:10:58] To.
Larissa Kindred [03:10:58] We need to support mom right now, and we're gonna, like, be here for her.
Margi Dehlin [03:11:01] So. Yeah. Yep.
John Dehlin [03:11:04] So I want to do a quick lightning round, and some of this is going to be a repeat, but I'm going to name a bunch of different domains and have you each do a brief summary of now versus before. Is that okay?
Margi Dehlin [03:11:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:11:19] As a way to kind of encapsulate reconstruction.
Margi Dehlin [03:11:23] Okay, okay.
John Dehlin [03:11:24] Okay. So here we go. Mental health after. After losing your faith in the Mormon Church and leaving the Mormon Church, how is both of your respective mental health?
Jeff Kindred [03:11:38] I remember the week after we left, Larissa looked at me and she goes, I think I cured my anxiety. So I would say yes.
John Dehlin [03:11:44] I think.
Jeff Kindred [03:11:45] I think our mental health.
Larissa Kindred [03:11:46] My anxiety didn't fully go away. I went through a little honeymoon period where I was like. Like, I just felt so liberated. Yeah. And then after that, then it get. Then. Then, you know, like, I mean, leaving the church doesn't cure anxiety. But I do feel like, because I'm living kind of in a more authentic way and because we're prioritizing both of our needs and being better partners, I think that. I think that that's been. My. My mental health is. Is. Has greatly improved.
Jeff Kindred [03:12:12] And I think just from what we talked about with the sexuality, I think that has. Has been such a huge. A huge mental health Boost for me to not to have that.
John Dehlin [03:12:20] So your sexuality is healthier?
Larissa Kindred [03:12:24] Yeah, absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:12:25] What about just. And again, the question isn't, have all your problems been solved? Leaving Mormonism, That's a red herring. It's just, have things gotten better? So your marriage dynamics.
Jeff Kindred [03:12:37] Oh, absolutely.
Larissa Kindred [03:12:38] Better, yeah, it's better.
Jeff Kindred [03:12:39] But it's a process.
Larissa Kindred [03:12:40] But we are. We are restructuring. So we, like, every now and again, we're like, are we on a roller coaster in our marriage? Because sometimes we feel like things are, like, really good because we're kind of, like, understanding this and we're being really open and. But then sometimes, you know, like, once you start identifying issues, it's easy to be like, hey, that's it. That's the thing that you said you wouldn't do anymore. And so we've gone through, like, some
Jeff Kindred [03:13:01] good times, and she's not talking about me.
Larissa Kindred [03:13:05] The highs are high and the lows are low. So, I mean, I do. I feel like our marriage is all on the way to being the marriage that we want to be, want to have. And that has created some conflict.
Jeff Kindred [03:13:17] And it was 20 years of a status quo that we did not disrupt and that the church infused in us. We didn't choose it, we didn't talk about it. And so disrupting that is not easy. I think we're finding that out, but we've made. I think we've made. Made big strides in that.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:13:37] So I. Oh, were you.
Larissa Kindred [03:13:38] I was going to comment on that.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:39] Okay.
Larissa Kindred [03:13:40] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:40] It sounds like that what you've done, you know, a big shift you've made, is kind of moving from an unconscious marriage to a conscious wife. And, yes, there's always, like, that reckoning period of when you're aware to things that previously you didn't know, you didn't know.
Larissa Kindred [03:13:59] Absolutely. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [03:14:01] And one thing that I have found that has been really challenging when you're trying to change the dynamic, because Larissa has done so much of the Taking care of the kids, making sure the kids are where they need to go, making sure there's something to eat for dinner, and making sure the house is clean. And so disrupting that is really uncomfortable. And it even takes, like, for me, I'm like, no, we've got to make a list, and I've got to have these things because it's just too hard for me to just. Just do things that I've never done automatically. And it's helped us. I think those are small steps that we've done.
Larissa Kindred [03:14:36] So just to give an example, women do so Much invisible work where we're actually anticipating needs or we're planning things and managing. And so Jeff has always. I feel like Jeff has always been, like, he's always cooked at our house, and he's always cleaning and stuff. But one thing that I always say is, I don't want a helper. I want someone who's like, like, a partner with me that's actually, like, in it and, you know, like, really, like, got their brain around this. I don't need another helper. My kids are old enough. They can be helpers. And so. But we've had to put certain things in place. Like, I'm usually the one that kind of is eyeing, like, what the kids need for school, and, like, do we have gifts for the teachers? And, you know, like, who has a test? And is it hat day at school today? And so it was just hard to bring Jeff into that because he's just not in the mode. And those are things that can be very overwhelming when you have fun. 5,000 of those things. It's so much. And so, like, this school year, Jeff was like, I'm just going to manage everything of golden school. And so I was kind of like, are you ready to that? Because he needs, like, Valentine's cards on Valentine's Day, and I always give the teachers a gift at Christmas, and, like, he has to wear his school shirt on the field trip day. Like, these are all the, like, things. But I think it's really. But Jeff was like, I think if I just know, like, this is my responsibility. So these are the things that we're kind of trying out so that Jeff can kind of start getting in the mindset of, like, anticipating these things and managing them kind of the way that I have approached them in the past.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:06] Yes. You guys are testing out.
Larissa Kindred [03:16:09] We're trying.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:10] You're moving into. Yeah. That's huge. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [03:16:13] And uncomfortable.
Larissa Kindred [03:16:15] Yeah. And uncomfortable. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:16] Yep.
John Dehlin [03:16:17] Okay. So I was going to say parenting, and you kind of talked about it with your son coming out, but overall, do you feel like you're healthier parents?
Larissa Kindred [03:16:25] Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I feel like now. Now I feel like we kind of have this focus on, like, connection. Instead of our kids doing specific things, we have a focus on, like, I want you to feel connected and loved, and I want to teach you to be a healthy individual. So that's good. But. But it is. I mean, again, this is still a struggle because we're trying to work through our conditioning and then. And parenting is just really hard. But I do. I. We feel like there's been a marked improvement in how we relate to our kids. And I think our kids have enjoyed watching us, like, go through this because we're doing things for the first time and, like, we have to sit them down and tell them, like, hey, you know that thing we told you? We found out it's not true. We were wrong. And so. And then our kids, like. Like, they weren't with us, but, like, we were like, hey, guys, we're gonna. We're gonna drink. Like, we're gonna start drinking. So our kids are kind of like, watching us have experiences for the first time and they're, like, really judgmental of us. They're like, are you getting drunk? And I'm like, no. Like, it takes work to get drunk. Like, I'm just having, like one drink. So it's kind of funny, like, to have your kids be on this with you where they're kind of like, watching you figure things out. And so I think it's nice, though, because they know that we're not perfect and we're just figuring out and leveled
Jeff Kindred [03:17:37] that playing field you were talking about. Which is. Which is really.
Larissa Kindred [03:17:40] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [03:17:40] Even with kids, I mean, I feel like it has made our relationships funner. And I mean, they'll test out swearing in front of us to see what the reaction. And at first we're like. We're like, wait, you can't say that.
Larissa Kindred [03:17:50] Like.
Jeff Kindred [03:17:51] But yeah, so it's really. It's really been an interesting thing to go through.
Larissa Kindred [03:17:55] Yeah. Our kids, Our kids are testing us. I feel like they're trying to see, like, are you. Are you. Are you really going to let go of more and mom and dad, or are you not? Because, yeah, they. I feel like they're testing us, but it's good.
John Dehlin [03:18:05] Okay, what about. So you talk about, let's just say alcohol or swearing or sexuality. You know, one of the values that religion can provide is providing these moral or morality guardrails to keep you from falling off a cliff. Keep you from becoming an alcoholic.
Margi Dehlin [03:18:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:18:21] Or a libertine or whatever.
Margi Dehlin [03:18:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:18:23] How do you feel you're both doing in terms of moral self restraint?
Larissa Kindred [03:18:29] I think we're kind of taking. We kind of are taking these individually. Like, what? You know, just looking at and saying, like, what is this us? Or do we think that this will be good for us? Is this something that we want to get into?
Jeff Kindred [03:18:40] And we had a talk before we ever drank alcohol. And I think the thing that was so interesting to me, the idea of drinking and what it was all about and what it actually is. Was so less overwhelming. I mean, you think you take a drink and you're drunk, and it's so much different than that. And also, I think that Larissa and I are both in a place where I don't feel like we're needing alcohol to treat something. I feel like we're using alcohol to eat with a meal or when we get together with some friends. And those are always things, though, that I think are certain, especially for people who have never had those things. I think they become dangerous.
Margi Dehlin [03:19:23] But.
Jeff Kindred [03:19:24] But. But. Yeah, I feel like that has. I don't feel. I feel like that's. We're in a healthy place.
Larissa Kindred [03:19:30] Yeah. We had a weird thing with. So when we first left, I kind of, like, had this realization, like, oh, no. Is Jeff gonna want to drink? Because I know that his grandparents were alcoholics, and it really affected his mom. And so I. So I brought it up, and I was like, hey, I'm just gonna be honest. I'm actually, like, really worried about you drinking. Are we gonna drink? And so we just talked about it, and it was kind of the same thing as our approach to, like, sexual health. It was like, well, let's just get an agreement about it. Like, let's do this in a way that's healthy. But I was also talking to a therapist friend of mine, and she said. I was like, yeah, I'm kind of worried, like, is Jeff gonna become an alcoholic? Because his grandparents were. And she said. She said, people. People who become alcoholics are using alcohol to deal with unresolved trauma.
Margi Dehlin [03:20:16] So she.
Larissa Kindred [03:20:17] She was like, if Jeff has unresolved trauma. And I was like, no, I feel like we're dealing with all of our trauma right now. And so she was like, no, I think that you're probably in a good place to have a healthy approach to this. But it did scare me at first, though. Cause, Yeah, I just. You don't know. And it's like, oh, no, Are we gonna drink? And then now we're alcoholics, so.
Jeff Kindred [03:20:34] And I don't ever feel like. I mean, we'll drink. I'd say occasionally, but I don't feel this pull that. It's like this fascinating thing that I think we make it out. Or coffee, the same thing, you know, I think you make these things bigger than they need to be when you actually do them. You're like, oh, that's what. That's what it was. Yeah, that's what all the fuss was about.
Larissa Kindred [03:20:55] I do think you have to be kind of careful, because I know that people can leave the church and kind of go hard because they felt like they have been restricted. So I do think it's something that you have to watch in yourself to say, like, am I self soothing or am I, you know, can I take this on in a healthy way?
John Dehlin [03:21:13] Yeah, yeah. Okay. What about spirituality? So sometimes when you leave a high demand religion, you're allergic to that term altogether and you like that term, repulses you. Other times you just develop new senses of meaning for what spirituality means. How do you both think about spirituality now?
Larissa Kindred [03:21:37] So the way I kind of understand spirituality, it's, it's, it's maybe like understanding that you're a part of something that's bigger than you. And so in that way, I feel like, I do feel like I am having a very spiritual experience because I'm learning how, you know, I'm connecting with people and, you know, so I don't feel like I have lost spiritual experiences, but I definitely am not interested in religion. And so I feel like for me, I really embrace spirituality or this connection or feeling like there's something that's bigger than all of us that we're contributing to. So for me, that's what spirituality is and I feel connected with that. But yeah, I've made a full separation of spirituality and religion.
Jeff Kindred [03:22:23] And I would say I agree with that. That to me, spirituality is about connecting with people. And I think there is a power in that. And that is what I look to do is making connections, making relationships. That's, that's what feeds me along with, I think, being outside. We've been hiking on Sundays, which I think has been really nice.
Larissa Kindred [03:22:49] It's been one of the most healing things after the Sundays that we've had the last 20 years. We go hiking and then we'll go to brunch together. And it almost feels like euphoric because it's so healing and so different than what our Sabbath day used to be like.
Jeff Kindred [03:23:03] And so we've had some long deconstruction talks.
Larissa Kindred [03:23:06] On our hikes, we had something that's been nice.
John Dehlin [03:23:09] Okay. It's beautiful. You talked about death and, and existential stuff. So we won't, we won't revisit that. What about friendships and community? Many people miss their wards. They miss their community. They lose their friends. Have you all been able to plug the holes of friendship and community? And if so, how?
Larissa Kindred [03:23:34] So? I think this is a little different for us because we don't live in Utah. And so, you know, we've asked the question, like, would Jeff's practice have been affected. If he was practicing in Utah, like, would there have been people that are like, oh, he left the church. I don't feel like he's very trustworthy anymore. But because we live outside of Utah, it kind of affects us differently. So Jeff has his practice and he's got his patients and he has this group of friends that he rides bikes with. And only like one or two of them are LDs and actually one of our ex Mormon friends rides with him. So, you know, like, those are. I feel like those pieces of community are still intact. We, we do, we do miss people in our ward. You know, like, we, we did love people in our ward. So I feel like that is something that we miss on some level. But I, for me personally, I feel like I'm very. I don't know, I'm very, like, engaged with my schoolwork and I started volunteering with. So I'm an animal person and I really love dogs. So we, I started volunteering with like a service, a service dog training program. And so, so I'm like making friends with that. And so I don't, I don't feel at this point that we have a loss of commu. Like that we had a big loss of community, even though we do miss some people that. That are from our ward. Would you say that that's a good assessment?
Jeff Kindred [03:24:58] I mean, my cycling group's an important group for me and mostly non members there. So to them, actually, it's funny when one of them found out I had left the church, who had never spoken to me about the church, but he called and told me how glad he was that I left the cult. But then he started inviting me to go to his church, to go to his cult. And then trying to. He said cults in air quotes, trying to. And to invite me to go to this retreat. And this is like a pretty, pretty dang conservative Baptist church in middle Tennessee. So it was kind of funny because
Larissa Kindred [03:25:35] it's like, why are you calling Mormonism a cult? Like you're in a, you know, like you're in your own church that has their own thing. So, yeah, it was kind of funny.
Jeff Kindred [03:25:42] But so, but yeah, we've been invited to a lot of churches, but yeah, we are not interested in.
Larissa Kindred [03:25:49] Yeah, we're not filming the church, certainly.
Jeff Kindred [03:25:51] Spirituality, reality.
John Dehlin [03:25:52] I have a friend I met with just this week who ended up getting divorced from his spouse and felt completely. A former bishop, felt completely isolated, completely alone, suicidal. And he. And he took up pickleball and he found pickleball communities in Park City. In Salt Lake and St. George and Vegas. And he's made this amazing group of friends who now invite him out to get a beer, invite him out to dinner, and, you know, it hasn't solved all the problems, but just a pickleball community. I think he would say pickleballs transformed his life. Saved his life.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:26:35] And it was really inspiring to see that you absolutely can form.
Larissa Kindred [03:26:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:26:38] Community and sometimes even more genuine and authentic community than you ever had had in. In Mormonism.
Larissa Kindred [03:26:45] Yeah. And we also. So we. We feel like we've had a really good experience in the ex Mormon community. I know that there can be, you know, you can leave the church and be a terrible ex Mormon, but what we found is generally people are. We have a shared experience. A lot of times we have the same values, similar things that led us out of the church. And so we've kind of connected. Like, we use Twitter, but we connected online with people. We're in several, you know, ex Mormon Facebook groups. I'm in a few, like, women's groups. There's actually an ex Mormon group that's just women of color. And it's so. It's so nice to just, like, talk about our experiences or for people to post things and say, like, can you believe this? This makes me so mad. And so it's just like, really nice to find people. And we have a. We have a small group of ex Mormons that are just from our stake. And so. So it's a couple that he was on. In a bishopric with Jeff, and then a couple that left the same time as us that were from our ward, and then just another couple. So we all get together and we have a dinner group, and it's honestly been amazing. And it's actually really funny because we all knew each other as Mormons and now we're not. And the first time we went out with one of these couples, we went out to dinner and we were drinking, and the. The guy, he said. He was like. He was like, this was not on my 2021 bingo card. To be, like, drinking with the Kindred, because we had only ever known them, like. Like they were in the bishopric together. And it's like, now we're sitting at dinner, like, drinking together. And so it's just. It's such a funny. It's a funny experience that we kind of laugh about, like, who we were or we can say, like, hey, remember that one time when we all were doing this? And now we're on the other side? So that group has been. Been very, very Important to us as well. So these are kind of ways that we've like kind of tried to build community after, after leaving the church.
John Dehlin [03:28:35] I love it. And that's so crucial. We're just.
Larissa Kindred [03:28:38] I think so.
John Dehlin [03:28:39] We're, we're tribal animals and we thrive in tribes.
Margi Dehlin [03:28:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:28:44] That's why we've talked about find your, Find your pod, find your book club. Find a small group of friends.
Jeff Kindred [03:28:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:28:51] That you can do life with together. Yes. To become family of choice instead of family of blood. If for some reason family of blood can't meet all your needs.
Larissa Kindred [03:29:00] Yeah, absolutely.
John Dehlin [03:29:00] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:29:01] Margi, I was curious about, you know, what healing kind of looks like for you right now and less about. Let's just, Let me just say I'm not talking about healing in an optimization way like, like fixing yourself or being healed where it's like destination oriented or perfectionistic. More like healing like showing up for yourself. What does that look like right now for you both? And that can be individually and together? Good question.
Larissa Kindred [03:29:45] I think for me and you know, like, obviously I've been on this journey where I have kind of like allowed myself to orbit around other people. And so I think that me trying to be really conscious of, of, you know, like what my individuality or trying to differentiate myself. I think I'm trying to be very conscious of that. So I think that's maybe a big part of healing for me is just to try to, you know, be. Be a stronger, more developed person on my own and not feel like I'm so dependent on other people for their validation. And so I, I think that's. That's kind of like a big thing for me right now.
Margi Dehlin [03:30:25] Yeah, that makes sense.
Jeff Kindred [03:30:29] And I don't know what, what I would say. I mean, I, I've certainly been doing a lot of reading. The time that normally would be gospel study, that now is reading books. And that's been, I think, very helpful for me. And I feel like it's opened up a lot of new perspectives and different types of books, not just one type of book. And so I think that's been very helpful. Also trying to, I think my own physical health and taking time to optimize that too has been a big part of that too, I think.
Margi Dehlin [03:31:14] And what are the ways that you do that
Jeff Kindred [03:31:19] through? Yes. So I, I'm. I love to cycle. Larissa and I really enjoy. We go to Orange Theory, which is the gym. I think you have them around here too. A gym. So we'll go there together, which has been a nice way for us to Work out together and. And then. And then trying to make something, you know, on a daily basis from that direction. And then also I follow, you know, people who are big into preventative health as opposed to not just taking care of problems when they come. So that's been a, you know, more recent thing that I've been getting into is saying, you know, not waiting until a problem shows up, so trying to be proactive about it. And I've always tried to be that type of a physician, but I think. Think even more in my own life and to try and take. Take part in that.
Margi Dehlin [03:32:12] I love that. I love that. Bringing it back to yourself.
Jeff Kindred [03:32:15] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:32:15] Yeah.
Jeff Kindred [03:32:16] I think it gets hard to do sometimes as a physician.
John Dehlin [03:32:19] Okay, well, beautiful. Well, before we end this amazing, epic, instructive, enlightening, inspiring.
Jeff Kindred [03:32:28] No one. No one got to this point, by the way.
John Dehlin [03:32:30] Oh, that's not true. I know people. People who listen every hour of Mormon stories, not like at night. For many of my listeners and viewers, nine hours is nothing.
Jeff Kindred [03:32:40] You know, I've listened to some pretty long.
John Dehlin [03:32:42] Yeah. Any. What final stories or. Or comments do you. Do you all want to make before we wrap up, or do you feel like you've already.
Larissa Kindred [03:32:52] I think we. I think we. I think we covered it. We really.
Jeff Kindred [03:32:55] Thanks. Thanks to you both. I mean, I.
Larissa Kindred [03:32:56] It's been a great experience for us.
Jeff Kindred [03:32:58] When I came name. It's surreal to. I feel like I know you both because of the podcast, and it's been so helpful in our process. And I really mean that. I mean, when you're reeling like that, to have a place where you can go and find someone who's understanding, even though I don't know you both, but it was very, very helpful. I remember early on going through the. The course, the faith deconstruction course you did with Natasha Helfer, Gift of the Mormon Faith.
Larissa Kindred [03:33:33] Yeah, we did that.
Jeff Kindred [03:33:33] We'll include a link to that, and that was very helpful. I just think that it was so nice to. The space you feel is needed. And we really appreciate it. And I know that that comes with a lot of downsides, too, but very appreciated.
Margi Dehlin [03:33:52] Thank you for that.
John Dehlin [03:33:54] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:33:54] And thank you for trusting us with your story.
Larissa Kindred [03:33:57] Of course.
Margi Dehlin [03:33:59] Okay.
John Dehlin [03:34:00] Any final thing, Larissa?
Larissa Kindred [03:34:02] No, I think that we. We really. We got a lot out, so. There was a lot, but we got it out, so. No, I'm. I'm feeling good. I hope this is helpful for other people. We love. We love the ex Mormon community and we hope that. We hope that this adds something and.
Jeff Kindred [03:34:17] And I hope it's helpful to the Mormon community, too, I think, especially with, I think I feel so strongly about the sexuality stuff and I think it's something that, that members need to take inventory of and, and, and reckon with.
Margi Dehlin [03:34:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:34:31] All right, well, well, thank you both for your courage and your wisdom and for flying here and, and for your time. I know you're going to help a lot of people.
Margi Dehlin [03:34:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:34:41] So just thank you so much.
Jeff Kindred [03:34:42] Thanks.
Margi Dehlin [03:34:43] Thanks.
John Dehlin [03:34:43] And Margi, thank you so much for joining us throughout the series. I love having you as co host.
Margi Dehlin [03:34:48] Thank you. My pleasure.
John Dehlin [03:34:49] You're. You're a doll.
Margi Dehlin [03:34:51] I'm a doll.
John Dehlin [03:34:52] You're a treasure. And thanks to all of you who, who donate and make Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation possible. We couldn't do without your support. If you want to become a monthly donor, please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button and become a monthly donor. And we'll keep doing this for as long as we can. Email us at Mormon stories@gmail.com with your feedback back. Follow us on YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and Facebook, because those subscriptions mean the world. Be kind to each other, be good to each other and stay in touch and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
1684: A Japanese-American Mormon Story – Jeff and Larissa Kindred Pt. 1
Join us as we meet Jeff & Larissa Kindred and follow their stories growing up as Latter-day Saints. Jeff’s story includes a grooming scoutmaster, his love of sports, attending Snow College, and serving a mission in Jackson, Mississippi where he dealt with scrupulosity around diet & exercise, becoming AP, and wrestling with racism in the Church culture & scripture.
Larissa’s story involves her Japanese-American heritage, and gives a brief introduction on the history of anti-Japanese sentiment in Utah, including having been home to a Japanese “Work” Camp in Topaz. Larissa tells of the struggles her grandparents faced assimilating into Utah Culture and dealing with the loss of their own. Larissa also describes racism she experienced growing up in American Fork, UT and Mormon culture’s ideals matching white beauty standards.
And this is just the beginning! Jeff and Larissa have a lot of experiences that many current and former Mormons will relate to and experiences that will be new for many to hear.
Larissa Kindred
Jeff Kindred:
1685: Unraveling the Progressive Mormon Dream – Larissa & Jeff Kindred Pt. 2
1686: Healing from Mormon Marital Sexual Dysfunction – Larissa and Jeff Kindred Pt. 3
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Show Notes:
Podcasts:
- Mormon Stories Podcast
- 896: Christopher Swallow – Abused by Lowell Robison who was still Allowed to Serve as Mission President
- 1640: Boy Scout Abuse and the Mormon Church with Attorney Tim Kosnoff
- 480-482: Jeremy Runnells and his Letter to a CES Director
- 1339-1341: Dr. Robert Ritner – An Expert Egyptologist Translates the Book of Abraham
- 1346: Shannon Caldwell Montez – The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922
- 1337: Shannon Caldwell Montez – From Wife and Mother to Groundbreaking Mormon Historian
- 1346: Shannon Caldwell Montez – The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922
- 483-486: Christine Jeppsen Clark, Daughter of General Authority Malcolm Jeppsen
- 1487-1488: The Mormon Influences on Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow
- 1614: Mormons and the Increasingly Toxic Great Salt Lake Lake with John Larsen
- 067: Women and the LDS Church Part 11 – Linda King Newell, “A Gift Given, A Gift Taken: Washing, Anointing, and Blessing the Sick Among Mormon Women”
- 1144-1146: A More Effective Approach to Masturbation and Pornography: For Teens and Adults
- 1477-1478: Executive Secretary to LDS General Authorities Speaks Out – Camille Jones
- Mormon Stories/LDS Discussions
- Rethinking Porn Addiction
- Mormonism LIVE Podcast
- Jennifer Finlayson Fife Podcasts
- Dr. Julie Hanks Podcast
- Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis
Books:
- Infamy: The Shocking Story of the Japanese American Internment in World War II – Richard Reeves
- Live Up to Our Privileges: Women, Power, and Priesthood – Wendy Ulrich
- Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling – Richard Bushman
- White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism – Dr. Robin DiAngelo & Michael Eric Dyson
- Bryan Stevenson’s Books
- Women and the Priesthood: What One Latter-day Saint Woman Believes – Sheri Dew
- Tabernacles of Clay: Sexuality and Gender in Modern Mormonism – Taylor G. Petrey
- Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness | W. Paul Reeves
- [Explicit] Women on Top – Sexual Fantasies of Women | Nancy Friday
Other Media:
- Damaged Goods: Perception of Pornography Addiction as a Mediator Between Religiosity and Relationship Anxiety Surrounding Pornography Use | Journal of Sex Research
- Sistas In Zion
- Mrs. America (Series on Hulu)
- Good Hair (Documentary on Amazon)
- Jennifer Finlayson Fife Website
- Dr. Julie Hanks Website
- Kristin Hodson Website
- Linda King Newell – A Gift Given, A Gift Taken Away (PDF Article)
- CES Letter
- The Family: A Proclamation to the World
- LDS Discussions
One Response
As an olster I gave up trying to figure out how to comment on youtube, But I have learned how to answer the problem of pornography. From a guilt feeling in the Church, I got rid of some of the pictures, but even now I have some 20 pictures of my favorite porno-queen, my wife, taken with my Polaroid camera in our younger years. I am so glad I saved them because my wife is currently in a transitional nursing care facility and at 77 years of age, I can truly get excited and can masturbate and my wife is thrilled when I tell her what still turns me on, And we’ve been married 54 years and no longer attend.