Introducing Laura Schnell and the Episode

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1473

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 11, 2021, and today you are in store for a super interesting and compelling Mormon Stories episode. Scout's honor. I was a star Scout, so Scout's honor. Today we have in studio the short version is Laura Schnell. Hello, Laura. Welcome.

Laura Schnell [00:00:25] Thank you. Hi, John. Hi, Kara.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] You guys would have heard Laura Schnell either mentioned by name or name in Mark Oslin's interview, which was an epic Mormon Stories interview. Shout out to Mark. Those of you who are avid followers of Mormon Stories podcast will remember that just a few months ago, we interviewed Mark Osland, who grew up as a star quarterback and baseball pitcher in Southern California, ended up inexplicably converting to the Mormon church around age 16, went on to sacrifice his major league baseball career to serve a Mormon mission and go attend byu. And when everything, all those dreams fell apart, he became a seminary and institute teacher for the Mormon Church. And then everything fell apart. So that has been one of the most, for sure, most important episodes of 2021, if not of all time. But there's more. While Mark Osland was teaching seminary institute in Utah county, of all places, he met the Laura Schnell. Right, Laura, Right. Yeah. He mentioned you in his episode, right?

Laura Schnell [00:01:24] He did.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] He mentioned you by name or not?

Laura Schnell [00:01:26] He did not. No, he didn't mention me by name. Other Brown co worker was he gonna have. Female, right? Female, yeah. Yeah. We got hired at the same time and we quit around the same time, too. So we were together, not teaching at the same school, but we were together. We knew each other very well and know each other, are really good friends.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Yeah. So, like, following on the tales of that, we just love to interview former Mormon Church employees, current Mormon Church employees, but also former seminary and institute teachers, CES employees, along with former bishops, stake presidents, former Relief Society presidents, because the insider view is what fascinates so many people. But Laura's got an epic story of her own, right? Born in Colombia, immigrated to the United States with her mom, spent some time in Queens, eventually became super active in the church, moved to Arizona, and then we're going to learn what her early years were like, what her teen years were like, and then, you know, what her Mormon life was like prior to BYU and then becoming a seminary and institute teacher. And then we're going to hear about what it's like to be a female woman of color trying to survive in CES in the Mormon Church education system. We're going to hear an epic story about what she confronted there and where that journey took her will leave you in suspense. Where did that journey take her? Maybe she's still employed by ces. I don't know. We'll have to find out. But hold onto your hats for an epic story. I've read the outline and it's going to be amazing. And there's more because of course we have the Cara Burrell with us as co host. Hey, Kara.

Guest [00:03:07] Oh, hey, John. Hey, Laura. I love when I come in to work in the morning and I'm a little bit tired and then the guests just, we start laughing and I'm like, oh, no, you can't tell me that story because we have to wait. So John is not exaggerating that this is going to be. This is going to be intense. This is going to be good. I'm already laughing and having so much fun already. Like, I cannot wa to get into this. You guys are going to hear some really good stories today.

Laura Schnell [00:03:32] So excited and.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] And care, I have to say, just, just as an intro, like your. Your debut interview in lead chair with. With Kelly Trust.

Guest [00:03:43] Wait, we have two Kelly.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] I know. I get.

Guest [00:03:46] We had Kelly Lang and Kelly Trust on Kelly Trust.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] Yeah.

Guest [00:03:48] Last few days.

Laura Schnell [00:03:49] This is.

Guest [00:03:49] Yeah. Kelly Trust. The. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] Tons of good feedback about your. Your debut. I'm not, you know, be trying to be condescending, but I just want to say nice job, man. Good job.

Guest [00:03:59] Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's been pretty nice.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Yeah.

Guest [00:04:02] You said no haters at the end of the podcast, so maybe people are like, oh, no.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] But beat down.

Guest [00:04:07] No, no. Yeah. And then obviously Kelly was a dream just in terms of her vulnerability and her ability. Just putting so much out there. And that was a really fun interview. If anyone hasn't watched that one yet, go back and watch after this. After this.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Yeah. And, you know, we're looking forward to having Kara find and take the lead on many more interviews to come, but it takes a little bit to learn how to do this job. Right. It's not as easy as it might look. Right.

Guest [00:04:36] We were just joking, really. Like, I think my first rodeo went pretty well. It's mostly the lighting. I have to get better. I like, I'm mostly over here. I could have interviewed Laura. I could have. I could have John over here. But the lighting isn't.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] So it's Gerardo's fault that you're not doing this interview?

Guest [00:04:50] Basically, yeah. It's also my ability to throw only, like, you know, dollar store makeup on my face really quickly. I need to, like, up all kinds of like, just on camera. I do that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] All right, donors, we need a Kara Burrell makeup budget for the Open Stories Foundation. Got it, Got it. Okay. So sorry, sorry, Laura, that we took some time out to give some opening notes per. And by the way, I have to say your full name. And I'm reading it because it's a tiny bit long, but the full name.

Guest [00:05:20] Memorize it.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] I did not.

Laura Schnell [00:05:21] Kara did.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] I can try and pretend to. Kara pretended to memorize it. Marcela Garcia Gomez Runyon Deschnell. That is the. Did I get it?

Laura Schnell [00:05:33] You got it. You got it.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] With a little German emphasis on it.

Laura Schnell [00:05:37] Yeah, that was perfect. Well done.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] All right, well, anything. Thanks for. Seriously, though, thanks for joining us, Laura. Super excited for today.

Laura Schnell [00:05:47] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Any additions, corrections you want to make to the intro before we jump into your story?

Laura Schnell [00:05:53] No, no, that was perfect. Thank you for saying Colombia and not Colombia, where people think I'm from, you know, here or not so.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Well, I owe it all to the Mormon Church for sending me on a mission to Guatemala.

Laura Schnell [00:06:03] Hey, there you go. There you go.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] I learned a few things while I was there.

Laura Schnell [00:06:08] That's awesome.

Growing Up Colombian and Joining the Church

John Dehlin [00:06:09] All right, well, where does your epic Mormon. I get a sense you weren't born under the covenant.

Laura Schnell [00:06:15] You know, I thought for the longest time that I had been until somebody in Young women's when I was about, I want to say 14, was like, do you know we were all born under the covenant? And I thought, yeah, me too. No, you weren't. No, I. Yeah, my parents were baptized and I was born Mormon. And she was like, no, the covenant means your parents are married in the temple. And I remember I was like, I wasn't born in the covenant. My mom comforted me. She's really good at that. Anyway, so I was not. My parents are converts. So.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] So how did it start?

Laura Schnell [00:06:50] Oh, really? It's really interesting. My father, who still lives in Colombia, by the way, he was a branch president at the time, and he's 10 years older than my mom. And she was a little college 22 year old and going through a hard time just struggling. Her parents were in the middle of a divorce. So anyway, the missionaries knocked on her door, but before they knocked on her door, she had a dream that two men were gonna come to her door. And so then she opened the door and it was two men with a book. And they came in and. And they said, we have a message for you, but what do you make of that?

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Oh, I guess you don't. I don't want to give Away the. Yeah, so it was divine stuff.

Laura Schnell [00:07:38] I've always thought. I mean, I've always thought it was really cool that she. She had that. And, you know, we were always told if we, you know, from the. We're from the tribe of Manasseh, so that means we're visionaries and everything. So anyway, she opens the door, is this very tall white man and this very short Colombian one. And they come in, and the Colombian one actually won't talk. He's like, well, my companion, he has something to tell you. And he was actually, I think he'd been in Colombia maybe half an hour, and he started just bringing his really broken English testimony. And my mom was just. She felt really loved by.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] She was smitten.

Laura Schnell [00:08:17] She was smitten.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Spiritually. Smitten.

Laura Schnell [00:08:18] Spiritually. Yeah. She tells me. She tells the story. She says, I just felt like God cared about me because he said, I know that Heavenly Father loves you. And she had never grew up Catholic, never heard, you know, God loves you. But Heavenly Father, you know, it's paternal, I think, going through everything with her parents. Her dad was absent. It just. It was really the perfect thing for her to feel. And so she got baptized.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Was she raised in, like, upper class, middle class?

Laura Schnell [00:08:49] Nope. No, lower. Lower. I wouldn't. I wouldn't even say middle at all. No, lower class. Number six of seven.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] Urban, rural, like city mix.

Laura Schnell [00:09:04] Mix, yeah. Countryside, not quite downtown, city, hustle, bustle. But not in a farm. So the. The between. So. And then my father, very, very, very poor. Like, no shoes to school, no food poor. And so they come from different backgrounds, similar. Different places in the country. But she goes to church, and someone says, hey, you're both single, you're both Mormon. You should.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Oh, so your dad was already in the church?

Laura Schnell [00:09:33] Yeah, he had been baptized before. Excuse me, not before, but, you know, prior. And he served a mission. Actually, he served a mission without going to the temple, which is so interesting because the only temple isn't there, Columbia Temple. Well, now, yeah. But back when he served in the 70s. No. So he. Which is so interesting. I'm like, did you not work? You know, no covenant, no garments, just serving. And then they got to go to the temple in Brazil. And so he got to go and go through and then went back and finished his. But he served his mission where my mom's from. But they didn't meet. So anyway, he's a branch president. He's a student, accounting. And then they meet and they date and they get married. Not in the temple. They didn't get married in the temple because there was no temple in Colombia at the time. But they were always taught to be worthy of a temple recommend and to be worthy and to get married.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] They couldn't go to Brazil.

Laura Schnell [00:10:30] No. Too expensive. Way too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, what was your dad's profession? Accountant.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] Okay, you just said that.

Laura Schnell [00:10:40] So he's an accountant. Yeah. So anyway, really struggled. Struggled a lot. I was born and, you know, not a lot of means and resources there. Faithful tithe payers, though. Faithful. Faithful. There are really. It's funny, there's very few pictures of us. We don't have pictures or anything when we were little because when we moved here, you leave everything. But there's one picture that he scanned and he sent me recently. My sister and I were just laughing. It's a picture of my mom and him and me. And behind them is a big old picture of Bruce R. McConkey. And I was like, what's McConkey doing in our family pic? And, you know, my mom's like, well, we were. You know, we're so faithful, and we wanted. They really wanted to. To live up to that Covenant family.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] He's your godfather.

Laura Schnell [00:11:27] He's like, oh, my God, he's my godfather.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] What's that in Spanish?

Laura Schnell [00:11:30] What is the padrino?

John Dehlin [00:11:32] Is your padrino spiritual?

Laura Schnell [00:11:37] No, please.

Guest [00:11:39] No.

Laura Schnell [00:11:39] I hope not. But maybe. I don't know. Who knows? But anyway, so you were there until what age? I was eight. And so they. So they got divorced.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:11:49] So they didn't get to, you know, get sealed, but yeah, till I was eight, my little sister was born. It was actually. She wasn't. It's really interesting. I prayed. That was my. That was my first time that I was like, okay, prayer works because I prayed every day, three times a day to get a little sister. And little did I know, they were getting. They were separating already by. But by some miracle, she was born and she was actually a divorce baby. It was before. So they were struggling, and then she was born, and when we brought her home from the hospital, he was already moved out. So. So kind of sad. Yeah, But. But she's my best friend. We were really, really tight, so the three of us moved here.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] And the age difference again, is it.

Laura Schnell [00:12:38] It's four years.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:12:39] Okay. Yeah, yeah. So anyway. Yeah, so show his jokes. She's like, no one wanted me, but you and God made a deal, so we brought you down. So anyway. But she's. She's totally. She's a gift. We all, my mom and my dad hate when she says that they're like, no, we did want you. Your sister wanted you more, though. But anyways, we move here.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] Do you have Mormon memories in Colombia?

Laura Schnell [00:13:02] Mormon memories? Yes, I do. Yeah. I remember I would go to church with. I would take turns because I think they were already separated. So I really don't know the details, but I think one would go one week, the other one would go. Same branch, though, really small. I remember bearing my testimony every single week. Testimony meeting. I just wanted to bear my testimony all the time. I remember the branch being really small. I remember walking just maybe an hour in the sun. Walking to church, an hour there and an hour back. Yeah, that's commitment. Yeah, they were committed. Yeah. Especially I remember crying because I was thirsty and my father would not stop to get me water. I mean, I'm. I'm like three and a half, four. I still remember bawling, saying, I'm thirsty. This is humid. You've been to Guatemala, So Colombia is very humid, very hot. And here I am in this 80s dress and. And my dad was like, no, it's Sunday, we don't go to the store. And if you keep crying, you'll be thirstier. So I just stopped crying and we went to church and I remember the sacrament. I was like, my water. I was so happy. But anyway, small brain, right? So anyway, really, really faith. I just remember faithful people loving, tight knit, really, really tight knit family, almost always taking care of each other. That's really the memories I have when

John Dehlin [00:14:34] ex Mormons want to, or even evangelical Christians want to say that the Mormon church just only does bad. I think about the role that it can play in developing countries and elsewhere.

Laura Schnell [00:14:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] And it gives me pause because like, it's got to be that some community is better than none.

Laura Schnell [00:14:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] And that doesn't mean, you know, maybe it fills a vacuum where other things would fill it if the church weren't there. But in your opinion, did you feel like the church was doing good for the, for the people there?

Laura Schnell [00:15:04] Yeah. I mean, and you know, that's hard because I struggle with, with making some of these members who are having a hard time paying tithing and, and having callings. But at the same time, I do sense was overall positive for that community. I remember I was best friends with this girl. She was special needs. I don't think I would have known her otherwise. She lived. And because it's a branch, people live far away. You know, it's one branch in Cali, the city where I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Cali.

Laura Schnell [00:15:35] Cali.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Wait, that is a I mean, that's. Is that Pablo Escobar territory or.

Laura Schnell [00:15:41] That's one of the cartels. The Cali cartels. Big Pablo Escobar is in Medellin.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] Okay.

Guest [00:15:46] How do you spell

Laura Schnell [00:15:48] C?

John Dehlin [00:15:49] A?

Laura Schnell [00:15:49] L, I. Yeah, just like California when people say Cali. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] Okay. So I don't even know my drug cartels, but the just know there's one in Cali different than Pablo Escobar's. I was gonna. And I hate to do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. A lot of us who grew up in the 80s, when we think of Colombia, we think about Pablo Escobar and cocaine and the drug trade. Was any of that even in your consciousness while you were there growing up? Did it affect your parents at all?

Laura Schnell [00:16:16] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] Do you even know? Do you want to talk about that?

Laura Schnell [00:16:19] Yeah. So I actually. I love talking to my mom about it. I was young, so I was born in 89, and the Escobar fiasco turned a corner in 94. My sister was already born, too. And overall, just general anxiety all the time. Which is why it's a great question. It actually leads to why the church played a part in healing. And maybe even if it didn't heal, it created, like, a sanctuary, like it hates. We're safe here. Let's have faith. Let's pray together. Let's rely on each other. The government was just insane. My mom remembers well, my dad. My dad. My father. I call him my father.

Guest [00:16:56] He.

Laura Schnell [00:16:57] I don't know why he thought it was a good idea to speak out. And he was actually against the drug cartels because it was government mixed with cartel, mixed with everything. And he was an accountant, and so he dealt with some government officials, and he decided to speak out, and he was actually kidnapped. So I do remember picking him up, and I remember him holding his wrists because his wrists were swollen from being tied, but they didn't really talk about it. Now that I asked him, he was like, oh, yeah, this and this and this. But my mom remembers. I mean, people would run for president and then be shot in the street. My mom remembers. She was really, really hoping for this one. His name was Galan, and he was in the middle of a speech, and he said, we're going to change this. We're going to change Colombia. And just gunned down by one of Pablo's men. And she says it was so much anxiety, and you felt like you didn't know who to trust. You didn't know how much to say, you didn't know where to go. And on Top of that, the economy was because these people were monopolizing the money and where the economy was going. And so anyway, it was. And that. That led to us leaving eventually. So much unrest.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] That was a factor.

Laura Schnell [00:18:10] Yeah, it was a factor. So much lack of work and lack of opportunity. So I mean, in Colombia, the media is owned by three families. Three or four families. And this, this was. And I'm. I'm speaking based on myself in 2008 when I talked to one. One Colombian official and she said, oh yeah, it's. It's so monopolized. We hope things are better now. There's some unrest still. But anyway, that led to the, the immigration of, of our family.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] So I always ask this, so I have to ask you, do you remember any primary songs growing up in, in Colombia?

Laura Schnell [00:18:43] Yes, I do. And actually my. My favorite primary song of all time, it's only. It's my. It's in Spanish. That's all I know it. And I remember moving here and hearing English primary and I was like, I don't like this Spanish primary way better. But it is the. How does it go? What's the title? The. The Flowers and the Birds. Cuando y go feliz una ave cantar My heavenly Father loves me. There it is, that one.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Whenever I hear the sound of a bird look at the blue blue sky. What is it in Spanish?

Laura Schnell [00:19:14] Mi palestial me ama cuando y go felizo na ve canta. Seriously. That was my go to. Yeah, keep singing.

Guest [00:19:21] Why did you stop?

John Dehlin [00:19:23] Yeah, exactly.

Laura Schnell [00:19:24] Was this a concert? I remember the lady who taught me that like it was yesterday. She was an angel. She was his older single lady who was in charge of primary. And I still remember one of my fondest memories was this little boy ripping off his shirt and he said, I hate God. And she, she would like hold him. I mean you would think like discipline, discipline. And I still remember after she held him, she was like, no, you don't. You're his child. And he was like, no, I am. I am Satan's child. And she kept holding him. And I was like. But I remember as a four year old watching such love from this, this primary woman and her teaching us and her holding my hand as I would color and really fond memories of primary.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] But so this is a test. Do you remember Mistientes? No me lavar e unino esclamo. Do you remember?

Laura Schnell [00:20:20] No, I don't remember that.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] So, yeah, the Spanish hymnal used to have a song about brushing your teeth. Really? Yeah. And it had. It also had Mi querito Santa Claus. So it had these. It had these primary songs that the US Ones didn't really.

Laura Schnell [00:20:40] I wish I knew. I wish I knew. The dientes one. The Santa Claus one.

Guest [00:20:44] Sounds familiar.

Laura Schnell [00:20:45] Yeah, that's funny.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] All right. I don't believe you actually lived in Latin America.

Laura Schnell [00:20:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] You failed the test.

Laura Schnell [00:20:51] I failed the. The Enthus test.

Guest [00:20:53] You just read a Wikipedia article about Escobar. I guarantee it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] Sarah's like, who's this Escobar person? Okay. All right. So, yeah. So your mom decided to make a leap, and that's a big deal, right?

Laura Schnell [00:21:10] Huge deal. Yeah. I still don't know.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Not everyone can even do that if they want to, right?

Laura Schnell [00:21:15] No, no. And she. I mean, my mom is such a faithful. She's so when I say faithful, I don't just mean faithful to the church, but just a filled with faith person where she really does believe that things work out and that God's aware. And my grandma was already living in New York. She had left Nueva York. Nueva York, Yeah. And she was like, ben, vente ven. Ben, Ben. And my mom was like, I still remember her asking. She was like, do you want to move to America? And I was like, no, I like it here. But that was hard.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] But Michael Jackson.

Laura Schnell [00:21:54] Yeah, right, Michael Jackson. I didn't speak any English. That was terrible. But she. She kept asking us, and I didn't know at the time, now I do, but she said, oh, she said she fasted all the time. Constantly, Constantly fasting and praying and couldn't go to the temple, but, you know, being. Trying to be faithful. And she. Someone was like, just go get your visas. Just go. Just go to Bogota, which is the capital. Get in line. It's really hard, but just go for it. So I still remember she went, and she's in line and she's seeing people get turned down. And when you get turned down. And by the way, a lot of people in her family have been turned down. It's not easy to get a visa. Why would a country want you to leave? So she watched people. And this is in the surge of immigration, but still she watched people get turned down. No, no, no, no. And come back in seven to 10 years. Back in seven to 10 years. And so she's just holding her breath. And you go through you, You. There's several stops. You don't go inside a building and sit down. You stop. There's like a little, like a booth for a first person to check. Like, okay, let's see if your situation, if it's Legit. You go inside and you sit down with an official. They stamp, whatever. If it's rejected, you don't even come inside. You're like, out. You're just done. So she was waiting in line and it's her turn. And she remembers people telling her, you cannot tell them the truth. Okay? You can't. You have to lie. Why would you tell them the truth? If they ask you, do you have land in Colombia? Yes, I do. Are you planning on coming back? Yes, I am. Right. Do you have a home? Yes, I do. Which, by the way, we're all, no for her. And so she's in line and she remembers. She tells me, she's like, I had to be honest. And so the man says, do you have land in Colombia? And she says, no, I don't. We're. We have. No. I'm going through a divorce. Okay. Do you have a home? No, I don't. I don't have a house. We have an apartment. Okay. Do you. Are you planning on coming back to Colombia? And she says, nope, I'm not. I want to take my two daughters and I. And I want to go. And the man, he pulls out three visas. He figures it all out. And he looks at her and he says, take this and go. Don't ask questions, just go. So she left. I got baptized first. That was my thing. I got to get baptized in Colombia by my father. And then in December, we left.

Immigrating to the United States

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Wow. What a miracle. So any. Any lesson on honesty for the rest of your mom's life? She told that story.

Laura Schnell [00:24:30] Yeah, anytime. Yeah. And for us, for our lives, you know, Be honest. Yeah, be honest. Tell the truth.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] That's great.

Laura Schnell [00:24:38] Yeah. Lots of miracles, though. I mean, she. She always says. She always tells me, she says, you know, God is. God is a God of miracles. And so it's a. It's something that has been part of my narrative my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] So anyway, so we can come back to that. But I mean, part of me wants to say, what a miracle. And then part of me wants to think, what about everybody else? You know, Did Heavenly Father not love them? You know, I mean.

Laura Schnell [00:25:04] Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah.

Guest [00:25:07] Or like whoever was giving out visas, it was like his last day and he was just like f the system and just wanted to give everybody visas. Cuz he's like, I'm quitting. That happened once when I was at a pizza place and the guy just gave everybody free cookies. Cuz he said, I just got fired and gave everyone free cookies in the pizza place.

Laura Schnell [00:25:23] So amazing.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] Maybe that was it.

Guest [00:25:24] Maybe that's my miracle.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] It's not as fun of a story.

Guest [00:25:28] You don't. You don't think. I feel like it has the same emotions.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] So I was inspiring. Sounds inspiring.

Laura Schnell [00:25:35] But close. Or he. I mean, really. And we'll come back to it, but for me, I'm like. Or humanity. I mean, this man maybe felt something when he saw this woman.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] And so it's not God. It's just like, this man was kind.

Laura Schnell [00:25:47] Right.

Guest [00:25:48] And so I believe in that all day long. Gorgeous.

Laura Schnell [00:25:50] Yeah, gorgeous it is.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] So, anyway, so you made the jump.

Laura Schnell [00:25:57] Yeah, we make it. And it's horrible. New York City in December is horrendously cold. And we had nothing. We had one suitcase each. I didn't even get.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] What year was this?

Laura Schnell [00:26:09] 97.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:26:10] Yeah. December 1997. December 19th.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:26:14] My sister turned four a week or so later. I had just turned. I had turned eight in September, got baptized, and then came. And here we are. My father came and then he said bye and left. So that was hard. Now I do. At the time, I just thought he didn't want. He doesn't want to be with us. But now I do it way too hard for him. He was like, I am not moving to the U.S. he was stubborn. He's a stubborn one. But that's essentially why he's like, nope, I'm not uprooting. I'm going to miss my family. I think it broke his heart into a million pieces. But he was not going to try to make a life here. So anyway. And my mom said, fine, okay, I am. Because I want the girls to grow up with opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] That's kind of super cool and tragic.

Laura Schnell [00:27:08] Yeah, both. I know. So anyway, we're here and we spend Christmas together and we find the branch. The first thing we do is we find that Richmond Hill 3 branch in Queens. In Queensland. Amazing. The most amazing little branch.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] We have a super devout listener who lives in Queens. Really? And she texts me. She dm's me on Instagram. So I have to give a shout out to my listener in Queens.

Laura Schnell [00:27:35] Queens.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] I assume there might be more than one, but there's at least one.

Laura Schnell [00:27:37] There you go. Yeah. Queens. So anyway, and that's important later on, but, yeah, we love the brand, but life is hard because you don't Just the American dream. I don't know if Kara wants to chime in with. We were talking before. We were talking about. Kara's really smart with ideals and, you

John Dehlin [00:27:58] know, what's it like to be an immigrant, Kara?

Laura Schnell [00:28:01] It's not yeah. What's it like? It's just. It's not.

Guest [00:28:05] Seriously not believed.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] Tell us. Tell us what it's like to be a person of color, Kara. We want to hear.

Guest [00:28:13] You know, everyone's gonna be like, oh, gosh, okay, but this is sarcasm.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] Everyone.

Laura Schnell [00:28:18] My gosh, but it's so cool to talk to someone my age who. Who gets it, you know, for the most part, people my age who are white are like, oh, but talking to Kara for, you know, the while before we started, I was like, oh, this person understands, like, the empathy there of the not confused look when I say, you know, it's not what they tell you. So it's not a party. It's not a party. And it's not like, congratulations, you're here.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] What's it like?

Laura Schnell [00:28:45] It's. You're thrown in and Learn the language quick, you know, Figure it out. My mom. Where do I work? I'm undocumented. I don't. I have a visa. And one of the hardest things for me with illegal immigration is that I'm very passionate about it. But it's. Well, you know, people do it the right way, and it's like, sure, like me, I did it the right way. I came with a visa. Colombia is an ocean away, so I wasn't gonna swim it, but I flew. But what happens when your visa is expired? That's the same thing. And so you don't have. It's just the means and the resources. It's hard. It's tough. It's really, really hard. So my mom just hopped to it, okay. Working whatever I can find and anything. Cleaning toilets in the airport where she met Tiger woods and Shakira, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] So literally cleaning toilets in there.

Laura Schnell [00:29:35] Literally cleaning toilets in there would bring us back Milano cookies. I have a bond with Milanos. If anyone's listening, wants to ship me Milanos. You're my best friend.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] You know the little Pepperidge farm?

Laura Schnell [00:29:47] Yeah. Yeah. Cookies. Yeah. She would bring us home, and we would be so happy.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] Gift. Gift for gift for Laura with the down carrot.

Laura Schnell [00:29:57] So working. Working a lot. We lived. We lived in this basement where my sister and I talk about. We shared a bed. The three of us shared a bed.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] Three in a bed.

Laura Schnell [00:30:09] Three in a bed. Yep. I didn't have my own. I didn't have my room. My own room until I was in my 20s, in college.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] So your mom and her two daughters.

Laura Schnell [00:30:18] Her two daughters shared a bed, yeah. And I would take care of my sister. She would leave us a note. We would pray every morning. She would leave really early and leave us a note. You know, she would say, hey, the breakfast is on the stove. Feed yourself, Feed your sister. Get dressed, Walker. And then I would take the public city bus to, to school. And eight. Well, this was okay. I'm okay. I'm thinking public is seventh grade. But like in the beginning, yeah, I just would walk, would walk to school. My great grandma lives in New York too, but she had a hard time. I mean, she was older, she couldn't. And after a while I told my mom, I was like, I don't want to be at her house anymore. So anyway, at her apartment, we're all in little apartments.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Did you kind of have to grow up early then?

Laura Schnell [00:31:01] Yes, very. And I was always told, you're the oldest, you're responsible, you have to take care of your sister. You have to be a good example. So I was very, very aware very early on about things.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] I've been in New York a few times. Like I sometimes am afraid. Well, it's hard to navigate the city and I'm afraid. And I'm this big, huge, you know, white guy. What's it like to be a 8 year old Spanish speaking immigrant trying to navigate the streets of Queens? Do you remember what it felt like?

Laura Schnell [00:31:34] You know what's interesting about that is I think because I am Latina, it feels different. There's so many. There's so much diversity in Queens. So I, I didn't find all the Colombians, but I found Dominicans and I found Puerto Ricans and Indians and Guyanese people.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] And they look kind of.

Laura Schnell [00:31:52] And yeah. And we all kind of felt. Yeah. I didn't really see at my junior high and in elementary, not a ton of white kids. And so it. That part I was like, okay, it's still foreign. I still, I mean, I'd never in my life seen an Indian person. Right. Or Dominicans. But I, it felt like, okay, you speak Spanish. Yeah. And so it, it was interesting that way.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] It reminds me of in the Heights. I don't know if you've seen that.

Laura Schnell [00:32:18] Oh, I'm dying too.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Oh, you haven't seen it?

Laura Schnell [00:32:20] My sister's begging me to. I need to.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] Okay. It's great. Lin Manuel Miranda, the, the creator of Hamilton, just came out with his first musical for the big screen. In the Heights. In the Heights.

Laura Schnell [00:32:34] In the Heights, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] And it talks about what a, what a local barrio or whatever in, in New York can be like for the people who live there.

Laura Schnell [00:32:42] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] And check it out. If you feel like it.

Laura Schnell [00:32:45] I'm Going to.

John Dehlin [00:32:45] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:32:46] But yeah, it. So it felt like that sometimes it was a little bit intimidating. I didn't. In Colombia, there's. I mean, when you come from a country, you're used to the language and the culture, and so here. So things are still different. There's still. The streets of New York aren't. You know, it's very. It's different. So my mom would say, be very careful. You know, be always aware. There's always older. Older people around me. And in seventh grade, I rode the public. The actual public bus.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] That's still amazing.

Laura Schnell [00:33:15] Grownups to school, so. Because I went to school in Brooklyn, so.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Oh.

Laura Schnell [00:33:20] Anyway. Junior high in Brooklyn.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Okay. Why?

Laura Schnell [00:33:24] That was just the. I don't know. Honestly. I want to say it was the closest one. There must have been one in Queens, but that's just the one I went to. It was just a half an hour on the public bus, so. With my Metro card, if you remember those.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:33:39] So anyway. Yeah. So that the hardest part was English. Honestly, I developed a lot of anxiety just because I didn't understand. And math already sucks, but math and English is really bad. So from a younger age, I kind of was like, oh, I'm just not that smart. I kind of believed that I'm not smart. And so, interestingly enough, all my teachers were white. In New York, I didn't have. Maybe I had one teacher of color. So that was interesting. I'd never had that. And I feel like sometimes it was good, sometimes it was not good. The math teacher, in particular, ridiculed me quite a bit for not understanding. But for the most part, really great teachers who had been around children of color all their lives. And so. So it was good and bad. So anyway, but I learned English. I made it. And my little sister learned English in, like, three months because she was home still. She was only four. And my mom didn't know, but my grandma was just turn on the TV for six hours a day. And so three months later, my sister was just blabbing. And my mom's like, oh, well, she's ready. So anyway. But the three of us were really, really tight. And my mom, we wouldn't see her. She would come home late, and that was it. Church. Sometimes she couldn't go to church. She was working. So we were taken on by this beautiful family, Mexican family. Mexicans have a special place in my heart because of this family. They just took us in and would take and feed us. And again, my mom would say, the church was there for us. And I say, yeah, the People. The people were there for us. These human beings who just love to us, you know, so. So New York was the. The growing pains for. For the three of us, but probably mostly for my mom. But my sister and I grew as little girls there. So.

Mormon Life in New York After 9/11

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Anyway, any memories from the branch you want to share?

Laura Schnell [00:35:35] So.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] Yeah, what was it called again, the branch?

Laura Schnell [00:35:37] Richmond Hill Tres.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:35:40] Richmond Hill Tres. And they just amazing people. Similar to Columbia actually. Very tight knit. My mom was made the Relief Society president, which I was like, why would you do that? She works three jobs. But she, she loved it. She was great. She was single though, so. And she. And she's very beautiful and, and young. I mean my mom. Okay. My mom was my age now when she moved to the US by herself.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] That crazy.

Laura Schnell [00:36:06] I couldn't do that.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] Awareness.

Laura Schnell [00:36:09] I can't. Yeah. When it hits you. Yeah. So a lot of men, you know, I would mana. You know, but. But she was pretty. She was. Hey, I'm here working for my girls. I'm not here to find love or whatever. So anyway, focused. Yeah, very focused. We were there during 9 11, so that was crazy.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Whoa. What do you remember about that?

Laura Schnell [00:36:28] Oh, I remember it like it was yesterday because. What? Yeah, my little sister was evacuated, which I'm offended I wasn't. They kept us in school. But I remember my principal running in and he just. I mean he was white, he looked like a ghost. And he ran in and he said, hey, I need anyone right now whose parents work in the World Trade Center. Come follow me. Just come outside the door. And a couple of my, you know, my classmates stood up and they were just about to be told that their parents were killed. I never did see those classmates again. Actually. I don't remember what happened. It's fuzzy. I don't remember. They were transferred maybe. I don't know. But it was kind of a. It was a morbid, terrible day. And Queens is, I want to say, 45 minutes away, but my mom was nowhere to be found. I knew her. I remember, I have. I had a stomachache because my mom, I knew her train went through that because I know she worked by Manhattan. So I remember thinking, is she okay?

John Dehlin [00:37:29] Oh, so she was working.

Laura Schnell [00:37:30] She was, uh huh. Yeah. And she. She watched one of the towers fall. She. The subway just froze. She's trampled. I mean, just everyone just running out. She walked home and so she came home at like 11pm covered in dust and. Yeah, crazy day. But September 12th was actually the day that stays in my mind the most because it was just quiet new York is never quiet. And September 12th was just death march. Just nothing.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] So do you remember the smoke or, you know, any of that stuff?

Laura Schnell [00:38:05] I only remember the emotional things. Just because I didn't. I remember watching. I mean, it was 8:30. I remember it was 8:30. My principal came in in the morning. School was not normal after that. That day it was just news and news and we just went from class to class news. Nothing. Just the tragedy. Then I went home and stayed with my sister and waited till my mom got home, hoping she was okay. And she was so. But crazy, crazy day. But, yeah, that's New York.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] That is New York.

Laura Schnell [00:38:34] Yeah. Those are my memories. And then, yeah, then my mom met a love interest, so things changed there.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] So how'd she meet him? Did you do youth program?

Laura Schnell [00:38:47] I did girls camp. Was in New York. What? So, yeah. Yeah. I was. I was a young women's in New York. And the Mexican family that took us in, she was a young women's president.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] So you literally live with this Mexican family?

Guest [00:38:59] No.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:39:00] And by that I mean.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:39:01] Yeah. And we would spend nights and days in a row, especially in the summertime when my mom worked and we were out of school. So anyway.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] But you went to girls camp? Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:39:11] Went to girls camp, yeah. Loved it. I thought it was. I hated being away from my mom. I cried a lot. I was a mommy's girl. I still am, actually. And so that was hard. But, yeah, I loved it. And I. It was. There were three young women.

Guest [00:39:27] So when you're in, like, the inner city, though, right? Like, what do you do for your girls camp?

Laura Schnell [00:39:31] So, great. Such a good question. We had a bus and we went to upstate New York.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Catskills, or what was it called?

Laura Schnell [00:39:39] I wish I knew, honestly. But super pretty. I'd never been camping. I was like, why do people do this? But I didn't like it. But I liked being with the people. And I remember the young women's camp director was so cool. Like this cool white lady who spoke Spanish and who made us feel welcome. That's always the problem with, I think, with stakes. And then you have your appendage Spanish branches. There's never. But I felt connected, so I liked it and I liked her. So anyway.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] Did you do seminary?

Laura Schnell [00:40:13] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] In New York, in Queens?

Laura Schnell [00:40:15] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:40:16] I left before.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] So do you remember your testimony growing there at all, or.

Laura Schnell [00:40:21] Yes, I do. Do you remember Bruce R. McConkey and our family picture in Colombia? Well, in New York. The worst joke of all time.

Guest [00:40:32] I'm gonna.

Laura Schnell [00:40:33] It's gonna be My nightmare just gonna.

John Dehlin [00:40:36] Ozland. You need to make a meme of Bruce R. McConkia's godfather that says Padrino spiritual. And then it's got a picture of Laura, like dreamy or something.

Laura Schnell [00:40:45] Yeah, thank you. But seriously though, that, that was New York. We had the, the prophet and the two, you know, his two counselors up in our bedroom wall because my mom said we have, we know faithful God, he will help us. And my mom was told repeatedly and I remember being hearing this, but hey, Edmana, like you're, you don't have a husband, so the priesthood is not in your home. So you need to, you need to be faithful because the priest is not in your home and you need to, Jesus is like your husband. I remember being like, what? When I was little, that just didn't add up. But I think spiritually it was well meaning, like, hey, you know, the Savior's here, but you don't have the priesthood, so be faithful to maintain that power.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] So anyway, well, it's almost a contradictory message of like, you've got people protecting you and guiding you, but the full power isn't with you. It's. It's kind of weird.

Laura Schnell [00:41:45] Yeah, it's a little. I remember being, I didn't let myself feel frustration, but I remember being sick and being like, we have to call, we have to call, blah, blah, blah. You know, we have to call el Senor or we have to call El Hermano. But the missionaries, they were, they came every Monday. The missionaries were our best friends. We loved them. They were, they were awesome. And we actually keep in touch with some of them to this day.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] Nice.

Guest [00:42:11] Yeah, I was gonna ask that. I bet that would be like a really good lifelong bond that you create there.

Laura Schnell [00:42:16] Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually one or there's two of them that personally text me still and they're like, I remember you and you were such a, you know, cute little 12 year old girl. And anyway, so they, they were a big deal for us in New York because they, for some reason they understood, I don't know why. 19 year old or maybe. Yeah, 19 boys from Arizona, from Idaho, from Utah. And they just had this love for the single mom and these two little girls. And anyway, they would bring us, I remember one time they brought us groceries and they, I remember checking the cupboards, you know, so much anxiety as a 10 year old. And my mom would say, it's okay, God will provide. We, I know we don't have food, but God will provide. And she would pay her tithing faithfully. And I remember watching her count the cash and putting it in an envelope and saying, this one's for the Lord and this one's for us. And I was like, but we need the extra. I remember thinking, like, well, how about we take $10 from God and we put it in our envelope? And she was like, no. So very faithful. But I think the missionaries understood that. And now that I'm an adult, I'm like, well, of course, they probably talked about us in word counsel, and they said, hey, this family' struggling. I don't know, maybe I didn't serve a mission, so I'm not sure, but they brought us groceries. And I remember thinking, the missionaries, they're so spiritual, they're so in tune. They. They understand and also God. And so my testimony was just that. And New York is what solidified my testimony in God and in missionaries and in miracles and in obedience. Perfect obedience always brings blessings.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] So anyway, I mean, it's hard to argue that, you know, your family kind of lifted itself up and that these Mormon families and the Rama, you know. Yeah, they were all a part of that, right?

Laura Schnell [00:44:15] Yeah, they really. They were a huge part of that. And so, yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] We'll talk about. I guess we can come back.

Laura Schnell [00:44:22] Yeah, we'll come back. Yeah, we'll come back.

Guest [00:44:24] I know.

Laura Schnell [00:44:24] I'm like, how much do I save? Yeah, But. But, yeah. So anyway, one of the missionaries, and that's why they're important, is one of them. He was. I remember he was from Arizona, and he fell in love with one of the young women in our award. You know, there's like. And that's like the biggest if. When you're. And that's very stereotypical, but you kind of grew up with this unsaid. If you're a young Latina and you're like, hey, if you can marry a white Mormon returned missionary, you have made it. That was kind of the unsaid thing. So we were all like, oh, my goodness, she's getting married to Elder. So. And so. And we were. So she was. And she was 18. It's not like she was 15 or anything. She was 18, which doesn't make me feel a lot better. But she was 18. He was young, 21. He came back, she was 19. And they got married. And his best man is my dad. So his best man, just this young, just handsome guy, divorced, two girls. He comes and my. I still remember. I still remember this to this day. I was sleeping at our Mexican friend's house. Her name is Jolis. And they said, let's go to this party. Let's go to. Let's go to Carla's party, her wedding party. My mom's like, I can't. I have to work. And for some reason, she got the day off. I don't know what happened. I remember being asleep, and my mom woke me up and she said, I'll be home at, you know, 4 or 5am you know, Latin parties, even the branch, the Rama. The parties at the Rama. I remember spending the night in the church. It was four or five, when everyone would go home. You just dance and you party. So. Yeah, that. That.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] Didn't you know how to party?

Laura Schnell [00:46:04] They sure do. Yeah. The poor missionaries, they would just stand and wave and leave because they couldn't dance.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] But Guatemala, they called it a pachanga.

Laura Schnell [00:46:12] That's like a big party. Yes, a pachanga. Uhhuh. Yeah, totally. So anyway, she was like, I'm going to Carla's wedding party. I'll be back. And I know that means 5am Anyway, she met him there.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Best man.

Laura Schnell [00:46:28] The best man. Yep. And they. He came over. I met him. I remember my little sister. We were in church the next day, the following day, and he kept looking at us, and my sister was like, there's a white man who keeps looking at us. And I remember being like, I see him. And then afterwards, my mom said, girls, this is. You know. And she. My mom did not speak English, and he did not speak Spanish. So in Spanish, she said, mom hadn't learned English. No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Wow. No, because there'd be no way.

Laura Schnell [00:46:54] There's no time.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] Too busy working.

Laura Schnell [00:46:55] Yep. Too busy working. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] And her word is all Spanish speaking.

Laura Schnell [00:46:59] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] The community.

Laura Schnell [00:47:00] Yeah. We spoke English.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] Because of school.

Laura Schnell [00:47:02] Yeah, because of school. So she's like, this is Mike. And we were just smiling, and he was smiling. And. And did he speak?

John Dehlin [00:47:10] You said he.

Laura Schnell [00:47:11] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Neither of them?

Laura Schnell [00:47:13] No.

Guest [00:47:14] No.

Laura Schnell [00:47:15] So the law of attraction was strong. So anyway, I guess she asked him to dance and he said yes, and they danced. And the rest is.

Guest [00:47:25] The rest is.

Laura Schnell [00:47:25] Yeah, exactly.

Race, Identity, and Latino Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [00:47:31] I have to ask this. This is a total, like, adjacent comment.

Laura Schnell [00:47:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] What were you taught about being a Laymanite and your skin color and whiteness up until that point? And if there's nothing, then nothing. I just want to check in about the Book of Mormon, the Lamanite doctrine, your skin, you know, because you mentioned white savior.

Laura Schnell [00:47:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Missionaries from Arizona and then your people of color, you know, Intermarriage.

Laura Schnell [00:48:03] Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I didn't learn enough about The Lamanites being us and there being a difference. Until I attended English speaking wards when there was more of like a this is us and this is them. And but because in, in New York it was like, yeah, we're. I remember it vaguely like, yeah, we're, we're the descendants of the Nephites. That's us. I remember that being said over the pulpit. I remember being taught that, you know, the Nephites and the Lamanites and anytime anyone was like, but what about. But the Lamanites are dark like we are. And they would like, but. But then they became righteous. So that's still us, you know, so it was always, that's us. That's, that's who we are. Most, but not all. Most Latinos are from the tribe of Manasseh. Not all Mormonism, according to Mormonism. So whatever that means, you know, at the time it meant, oh, well, Manasseh. That's, you know, that's Lehi, that's Nephi. So that meant a, that was a big deal. We felt, okay, this is us, this is our people.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] And just so listeners who have no idea what we're talking about, when you get a patriarchal blessing in Mormonism, it's this blessing that this usually old man in your stake gives you. It's kind of like fortune telling or tarot card reading where he'll put his hands on your head and then dictate a blessing that's supposedly from God. And because Joseph Smith was super into lineage and Israelites and the pure blood of the Jews. And. And because the Book of Mormon taught because of the mound builder myth that Joseph Smith absorbed, that Native Americans were actually literal descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. One of the things you got, you received in that patriarchal Blessing, when you're 12 or 16 or whatever, is your lineage declared. And so white people got their lineage declared as being from the tribe of Ephraim as one of the two non lost tribes of Israel, I'm guessing. And then the other option was Manasseh. And so people of color would be told in their patriarchal blessings that they were of the tribe of Manasseh. I'm sure in some way that's super racist, but you thought that was cool.

Laura Schnell [00:50:09] I thought it was cool, yeah. Not till later. Not till I'm in seminary where I learned the responsibilities. That's when I start being like, wait a minute, you know, wait, it seems like Manasseh's, you know, what the birthright was to Ephraim. So it felt off. But at the Time. You know, in my. In my 12 year old mind, I was like, no, this is cool. I am a descendant of the righteous Lamanites. The end.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] You were kind of pure blood of Israel.

Laura Schnell [00:50:34] Yeah, yeah. The people who buried their weapons. That's me. That's my people. And so it felt very real. My mom has a very strong testimony of the Book of Mormon. And so it was very important growing up. The Bible, I'm still really shaky on it. The Book of Mormon was. Was it so. And it was her way, I think, of shedding the Catholicism. It was her way of saying, no, I'm Mormon now and this is our scripture. She still values and loves the Bible, but book Mormon came first, so.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] But you thought of yourself as a Lamanite. Yeah, I did.

Laura Schnell [00:51:07] A la Manita. But righteous. Los buenos. Yeah, no, los malos.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] And this idea that came through like Spencer B. Kimball, but probably came to Joseph Smith or is in the scriptures that the Lamanites will blossom as a rose and become white and delightsome. When you mentioned some of the Queen's young women marrying the white Utah or Arizona or Idaho, was there any of that, like, skin color? We just did a really powerful and important episode with like, Sarah Newcombe and Monica and about Native Americans and just how they were vexed by the dark skin and the promise that they would eventually become white and delight some if they were righteous. Was there any of that, as you thought about kind of marrying potentially white Mormon missionaries.

Guest [00:52:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] And skin lightning at all, or was that not part of your narrative?

Laura Schnell [00:52:04] You know, what's interesting is it's part of the. The social construct with. With Latinos in general. And I don't want to speak for all Latinos. You know, I don't represent the entire diaspora, but I represent me.

Guest [00:52:18] I do. Kara does.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] She's an immigrant. She's a person of color. She represents the diaspora.

Guest [00:52:27] Sarcasm, Sarcasm.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] All right, Kara, it's time to go ahead. Kara.

Laura Schnell [00:52:30] Yeah, I'm kidding.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] I'm kidding. Okay, keep going. We are totally trying to make a joke of obnoxious white people, basically.

Laura Schnell [00:52:41] No, it's all. So, yeah, we. It just. That's just. Okay. I strained my hair when I was. Ever since I was 9 years old. Chemically straightened, relaxed. And it was this thing, you know, growing up, like, don't be in the sun too long, you know, because white is the beauty standard. You. I wanted to look like Kara growing up. All growing up. I wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] Because you straighten your hair with those chemicals that burn your scalp.

Laura Schnell [00:53:09] Yeah. Nine years old. Yeah. Yeah. Every Every six months or so. And so I, you know, I wanted to be this person, this white person. And because white was the beauty standard. So not only so. So to hear it sometimes in Mormonism, it was a little bit like, yeah, of course. It wasn't like, oh, that's, that seems to be exclusive, you know, that seems to be racist. It was like, no, of course. Because white is beautiful. Like you want white.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] So that was, Was that a non. Just a us thing, not just a Mormon thing, or was it Mormon influence?

Laura Schnell [00:53:46] No, the Mormon influence. Yeah. I'm just saying when I hurt, when I, when I felt those inklings in Mormonism, like, oh, white and delight some. I didn't think, oh, not like me. I thought, yeah, that's what I could be. That's what I should be. That's what I can hopefully become. And you know, if I. There's this thing in Colombia we say it's. It's pretty terrible, but it's atrasar la raza, which is. Atrasar is to, to bring back. So if we were to marry someone of our same skin color, you know, and sometimes if we had crushes on dark boys, you know, our aunts would say that would atrasar la raza bring back the race? Yeah, she's like, like what?

John Dehlin [00:54:24] Translate that.

Laura Schnell [00:54:25] Atra Sars. Like when, like you, you wind back a clock when you. And so it's like, no, the opposite of progress. So you want to marry white because then there's progress. Right. Then your kids are less dark than you and your children. Yeah. In fact, my daughter has. Her hair is not like mine. She is half white. And my aunt the other day, bless her, this is so internalized racism for her. But she said, I'm so glad her hair didn't turn out like yours. I was like, see, because it didn't because her father's white and I'm not. So anyway, so it's that idea of like, we want to beautify our race. So I already had that social construct. And so plus the Mormonism, white and delightsome. It all made sense that this was my goal. And so early on, self loathing. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Early on I just didn't have a healthy. And again. And it always breaks my mom's heart when she's like, but I never, because my mom did, she always was like, you're beautiful, you know, but, but you, you hear the messages everywhere. And I heard them everywhere. And so what was I supposed to do As a nine year old, I didn't have the, the Ability to. To critically say, no, no. That's a social construct. You know, I just believed it. I'm just not as good as white. That's okay. But one day I might be. So.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] I'm so sorry.

Laura Schnell [00:55:46] That's kind. Thank you. But anyway, so that I feel like

John Dehlin [00:55:51] I want to apologize.

Laura Schnell [00:55:54] That's okay. But. But it's taken a long time to heal and grow, and I'm still processing a lot. The fact that I'm wearing my hair down, just so, you know, is big. I couldn't. I mean, even a year ago. This is my sister's talking.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] When you say wearing it down, what

Laura Schnell [00:56:09] do you mean wearing it? Not, you know, not constrained. You know, pulled back. Because when it's like, in a ponytail. Yeah. Or like, just. I don't. It's too big. It's too. Too curly. It's too. Whatever. And so it was always like, no, you want to hide that. You want to be, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] More.

Laura Schnell [00:56:27] More white. Yeah. Classier. I don't know. So, anyway, I know it's hard. It's hard to unlearn. It really is. But it didn't help to be in a. In a white religion. I will say that it should have. But. But anyway.

Guest [00:56:45] No, absolutely beautiful.

Laura Schnell [00:56:46] The compliment for my hair. It's not taken the wrong way.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] We can say that.

Laura Schnell [00:56:51] You can say it.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] Your hair is beautiful.

Laura Schnell [00:56:52] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So anyway, I. But there was always that because the Lamanites were so righteous. And remember in the end of the Book of Mormon, though, they did. They did beat the Nephites. They were more righteous than the Nephites. So I kind of held out. Like, it's okay because I'm righteous. If I'm righteous inside, it doesn't matter that I'm not as white because I'll be white inside. I don't know if that makes any sense. I'm white and delights I'm inside by being so spiritual. So.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] Okay, Kara, this is a TikTok.

Guest [00:57:25] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:57:25] Yeah.

Guest [00:57:26] Those are. Yeah. These are a lot of the same themes that. When we had the panel of Native American women the other day, that's was. Everyone should probably go watch that. It was just these intense stories, one after another of that's the type of. Yeah. Dynamic that a lot of people from, you know, Native American to Latin America and all over have been just like

John Dehlin [00:57:47] women rubbing lemon on their skin as a. As a. As a habit.

Guest [00:57:52] And the point is, because the lemon

John Dehlin [00:57:54] might make the skin lighter. These are Native American women.

Laura Schnell [00:57:57] Yeah.

Guest [00:57:57] And that's Frustrating is there's this just enormous amount of gaslighting, I guess maybe if that's the right word, where people come on the podcast, they're telling the stories that they grew up with. These are the ideas that were put in their head growing up. And then there'll just be so much spin from whether it's apologists or just a lot of Mormons. Generally, we're not racist.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] They don't teach those things that we've

Guest [00:58:17] never taught those things. And I was like, these are technically their lived experiences. And the messages they got, like, let them speak authentically to what they experienced and what they thought about their own skin, you know?

Laura Schnell [00:58:27] So thank you for saying that. Yeah. Because that's. Yeah, that's a big one that I struggle with, is that I'm like, did I make that up? Was I overly sensitive? But the lemon thing, okay. In Colombia, I remember if you put lemon in your eyes, they might turn blue. And I remember begging my babysitter. I'm like, please do it. I'll hold still. And she was like, no, I'm not gonna. I was like, please, it might. And she was like, no, I think you have to be younger for it to work. I don't. It don't think.

Guest [00:58:55] Can you come home?

Laura Schnell [00:58:56] Your kid, she wants me to put lemon in her eyes. Yeah. So just little things like that that I am very, very aware that I do not want my daughter, who, by the way, is very Latina, looking to not have to deal with.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] So thank you for sharing that.

Guest [00:59:12] Yeah, thank you. I think that's a good insight for me. Just blonde haired, white Provo girl. Tell me all you know. I am. We're listening and learning on this podcast today. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] Thank you.

Laura Schnell [00:59:25] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] Okay. So your mom. Your mom finds that white guy.

Laura Schnell [00:59:31] Finds the white guy.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] White Mormon.

Laura Schnell [00:59:34] The white Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] Rm.

Laura Schnell [00:59:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] No, not in our.

Laura Schnell [00:59:37] No. Oh, yeah. Yeah. A little edgy, on the edge. I love him. I know he. And he is just the most fantastic person. My dad. I call him dad. Raised as, you know, father figure. We've been without one for a long time. We moved to Arizona, and that's where. See, that's where it's exacerbated this whiteness obsession, because Arizona. And we lived in Prescott. If you know anything about Prescott, Arizona, it's just the whitest place you could be. And then we moved to Gilbert, which my husband calls Utah South.

John Dehlin [01:00:12] Utah South.

Laura Schnell [01:00:12] Yeah, my husband calls it that.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] So, yeah, I call it Provo, Ariz. You could probably.

Laura Schnell [01:00:18] There you go.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] Sorry.

Laura Schnell [01:00:20] Oh, sorry.

Guest [01:00:23] I used to live in Mesa. I get it.

Laura Schnell [01:00:24] Oh, you do? Oh, man. Yeah. No. So that was white ward's, you know, English word because he didn't speak Spanish. And so it was kind of the sacrifice there. My mom was like, okay, let's go to the white ward. They still, by the way, couldn't communicate.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] Oh, my gosh. So your mom is going to a eventually, a Gilbert or a whatever. Arizona. White ward. Not speaking English yet.

Laura Schnell [01:00:48] Yes. Not speaking English. No. So what a culture shock. I know.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] Another culture shock.

Laura Schnell [01:00:55] Yeah. Amongst many. Yeah. But she.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] At least in Queens, she was surrounded by Latinos or Latinas.

Laura Schnell [01:01:00] Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I will mention they were married in the temple, though.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] Okay.

Laura Schnell [01:01:06] My mom and dad. But that still didn't make us covenant kids, by the way. So we were. My sister and I were like, man. But anyway, they got married. We moved to Arizona. School there. School was so hard there. Junior high was brutal.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] All white kids.

Laura Schnell [01:01:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] Mostly white kids.

Laura Schnell [01:01:24] Yeah, Mostly white kids. Yeah. And the white wards were nice. I mean, hey, welcome to our ward. So nice. Not. Not as warm, not as, like, huggy or anything. So that was something to get used to, is we're like, oh, why don't they, you know, like, wave and smile? They just kind of, like, walk by and kind of whisper a lot more reverence, which we weren't used to. Their parties don't go till 5am Their parties don't go.

Guest [01:01:52] Don't go, don't go.

Laura Schnell [01:01:53] So, yeah. So it's literally, like, so different.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] Latino words and branches are different than white.

Laura Schnell [01:02:01] They're so different. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] It's almost a different church.

Laura Schnell [01:02:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] In some ways.

Laura Schnell [01:02:05] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And everyone can sing. Oh. Oh, my goodness. Every. We're like, white people can sing. They all sound so good, and they just are in tune and they sound, you know, so professional.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Harmony.

Laura Schnell [01:02:19] Harmony. Yeah. And just a different world, you know, but still, hey, same place, testimony. A lot more, though I started noticing later on a lot more Lamanite, Nephite stuff where I was like, hmm, okay. One time this lady, she. She asked my mom, and that's in here. But she said, okay, well, do you think your daughters. Do you think after the. They die and after the resurrection, they will be returned to the white delightsomeness? Do you think they will be white? Because they're not white right now. And my mom just. I think my mom just kind of stared at her and was like, no, no, I don't think that. I think my daughters are, you know, brown and beautiful, and that's how they're meant to be. But I remember that experience was really. It was just kind of traumatizing. Honestly, it just made me feel like, okay, is this what everyone in this war thinks is going to happen or hoping will happen to my sister? And I just really off. Really, really off. So that was, that was the first time that I ever kind of stepped outside myself and was like, okay, this isn't in my head. Someone just verbalized this and asked if I would be white in the next life. So I like to joke with my husband. I'm like, no, just be kidding, be ready. I'll just be blonde, blue eyed. You know, you won't know who you're waking up next to. But it's just, it doesn't make sense, you know, so. But we did go to one ward that was. And all the wars, I will say, were really kind, really friendly. We did go to one that was especially loving, where the young women leaders were very. At least I felt very equal, you know. And I was given callings. I was, you know, made to feel special and it feel really special. I had a strong testimony and I was always told, like, you're so faithful. Your testimony is so strong. It's so. It makes you so bright and, you know, you have so much light. And so I, that's when I kind of switched gears and I was like, fine, kind of. That thing earlier when I was a little girl, I was like, if I can't be white, I will be very white on the inside in all things, but especially spiritually. White people are very spiritual because I saw them and like mission presidents are white and stake presidents, you know, and, and I saw that because in the branch, the stake president was white. It was, you know, it was a white stake and the mission president was over us. I don't really know how that works. If you're a missionary, you might understand. I don't. But when it's a branch, you don't really have a stake, but it's the mission president who's kind of. So anyway, all those people were white. So ever since I was younger, I knew white leadership. Really, really righteous. And that's what I wanted. So that was the Arizona thing for me was, okay, testimony overdrive. Let's do it. Let's be faithful, strong all the time. It doesn't matter if I don't really fit in. It's okay because I'm spiritual.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] So white on the inside.

Laura Schnell [01:05:22] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Spiritually white and delights them.

Laura Schnell [01:05:25] Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And high school was very white too. Seminary, though, that was another place where I loved it. Part of the Arizona experience is I loved seminary because I. Again, I was so spiritually driven. So it was like my thing, but in seminary was when that Ephraim and Manasseh experience happened. The teacher said, okay, raise your hand. We're talking about patriarchal blessings today. And I received mine when I was 14, just way too young. And, okay, raise your hand if you're from Ephraim, everyone. And then. Okay, you didn't raise your hand. And I was like, well, I'm from Manasseh. And this boy turns around and he was like, outsider. And I remember being like, I internalized it way too much. I mean, he was just a teenage boy, but I was like, maybe I am an outsider, you know, Maybe. And so then the teacher was like, you know, Laura, it's okay because the Manasseh is faithful. They're just not charged with the missionary work. So Ephraim was given the birthright. He was more faithful. And maybe he didn't word it that way, but that's how I ingested it. I do remember Ephraim got the birthright, right. Manasseh didn't. So those who come from Manasseh don't have that. And so that's kind of when I was. I. I had moments like that where I was like, man, I'm really not good enough and I can't control it. It's where I come from, you know?

John Dehlin [01:06:49] Structural.

Laura Schnell [01:06:50] Yeah, structural.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Structural inferiority. Based on skin color.

Laura Schnell [01:06:54] Exactly. Exactly. Based on something I didn't choose.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:06:58] So anyway. Yeah.

Developing a Testimony Through Seminary

John Dehlin [01:07:02] So seminary. I mean, you end up becoming a seminary teacher.

Guest [01:07:05] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:07:06] Isn't that so.

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Did you eat it up? Did you love it?

Laura Schnell [01:07:08] I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] What did you love about seminary?

Laura Schnell [01:07:10] Yeah, that I could. That I could be churchy, That I could read and talk about the Gospel and Jesus. And I remember. This is so funny. My best friend growing up, I met her the first day, freshman year. And I had come from New York, so the church wasn't a thing in New York outside of. Of our branch. You know, like, I would say my best friend in New York was Sikh from India. So, you know, I loved. I love different religions, but if you say Mormon, everyone's like, huh. But in Arizona, I remember and thinking seminary and all these people, and I saw this girl that was in my seminary class, and I saw her in my PE class. And the first thing. And to this day, she still gives me so much crap about it. The first thing I asked her, and I was like, hi, I'm Laura. Do you read the Book of Mormon? She was like, and this is like a Mormon girl raised. Born and raised in Arizona, who's like, this is so weird. Like, why are you. And she was like, I guess I was like, really? Where are you? Just want to die, right? This is P.E. for Pete's sake. Like, super morbid, right?

Guest [01:08:19] And she's thinking it's because she's like, yeah, me and 40 other people in this class.

Laura Schnell [01:08:23] Exactly, yeah. She's like, all right.

Guest [01:08:25] Yeah, it's not our cool little secret.

Laura Schnell [01:08:28] Yeah, I read it to you. So, I mean, I loved seminary for that reason. Again, I was only. I was the only. I only knew one other Brown person in seminary, so. And he and I became friends. We kind of connected all the time. We were like, yeah, but they don't get it. So. But again, we. We could. We both come from similar backgrounds, really strong convert, strong parents, so very spiritual. Never really felt we didn't belong in seminary except for what we looked like. Other than that, we belonged there, we grew there, we wanted to be part of it, just like everyone else.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] So tell us how your testimony developed from childhood to adolescence with both your mom's influence and with seminary. Like, what did it look like? Your testimony,

Laura Schnell [01:09:18] it was just. If you could just. I don't know what pure means anymore, really. But for me, it. It was just this. I didn't need to understand everything to know that the church was true, that God was real, that Jesus Christ was my savior. Because I leaned back on childhood experiences. I'm like the missionaries, bringing groceries. My mom. So I'm getting out of New York, meeting my dad, getting married in the temple with my dad, and seeing their life, you know, I just knew. Once my mom married him, though, he. He had come back to church, he kind of went a little off the deep end, then came back and it was more obedience based. So I remember he would. And finally the priesthood was in our home, you know, and that was a big thing for me. So my testimony kind of. It was. It was always strong. But why? When he was in our lives and he still is, that's when it took off. I was like, okay, the priesthood's in our home. We are complete. We now have all the blessings. Except I'm still not a covenant kid, but that's okay. I'm spiritual. Obedience, obedience, obedience. Now it's the obedience part, you know, it's I, the Lord am bound when you do what I say. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do every little thing. And so I Became a little bit

Guest [01:10:42] not.

Laura Schnell [01:10:42] I don't know if perfectionism, maybe it is the right word, but spiritually, I mean, I repented about anything and everything all the time. So just to make sure. And it was, of course, the. The bottom line was to make sure I remained the light some inside, you know, I couldn't. I could not bear the thought of me being. Losing my light because I. I was not in my mind. I wasn't good enough already. But if I could be spiritual enough, so then I couldn't let my guard down spiritually. I had to stay in the light all the time. So very, very strict with myself.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] What were your prayers like?

Laura Schnell [01:11:24] I always ask for forgiveness in all my prayers. Just in case I didn't. I would. I would ask for forgiveness for things I wasn't sure if I did wrong, just in case they were wrong. I always asked for guidance. I always asked for. I always was grad, you know, always express gratitude. I remember it was later on my senior year. I prayed that I wouldn't fall away. I kind of had an obsession with it. I just didn't. Did not want to lose my testimony. I did not want to leave the church. I was like, please, please bless me to never leave the church. Please bless me to never fall away. Please bless me with light, with discernment, please. And my little sister, she. She's very. Ever since she was younger, she would be kind of the. The curious one. And I would be like, nope, nope, you can't ask that. You know, don't say that. I remember in high school, she went to this camp. She was invited by her teacher who was.

Guest [01:12:27] Was.

Laura Schnell [01:12:28] She was out. She was out as a lesbian. And it was like this, like, you know, this queer camp where people were straight people and queer kids, they come together and Anyway, my sister was invited by this teacher and she said, I think you're great. I think you'd be great in our community. Let's go together. And my parents were so mad. And I remember sitting at the dinner table and they were like, we're disappointed. Like this. If you go, just know, beware of this assist. And I remember kind of taken it on me to, to be that person for my sister. Like, hey, okay, just be careful about this, okay? So that was always my role is I need to be really spiritual. But also I'm an example too, of spirituality.

John Dehlin [01:13:10] The female equivalent of Nephi.

Laura Schnell [01:13:12] Yes, I am Nephi.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] You are Nephi? Yes, that's Nephi. For those who.

Laura Schnell [01:13:17] Yes.

Guest [01:13:18] I was like, what? Google Translate?

Laura Schnell [01:13:22] I'm lost.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] Nephi. Is Spanish speaking me.

Guest [01:13:26] I followed it.

Laura Schnell [01:13:27] You got it, right?

Guest [01:13:28] I got it.

Laura Schnell [01:13:29] Yeah. So, yeah. So my testimony was really, really strong. I always. I know. And I always knew too. And I always would say I knew that it was true.

John Dehlin [01:13:42] Normal church was true.

Laura Schnell [01:13:43] Yeah, yeah. And I didn't. I never thought about anything on the outside being remotely even my best friend in New York being Sikh. I always thought, that's okay, she has her thing. But she's wrong and that's okay. God loves her. You know, I'm right and that's, you know, that's good. And I'm delightsome and I'm the chosen, whatever thing.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] So it feels good to be chosen.

Laura Schnell [01:14:08] Yeah, it does. It does. Even if. Even if you're the second chosen, even if you're Manasseh chosen, it's second class

John Dehlin [01:14:15] chosen, you're still chosen.

Laura Schnell [01:14:16] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I would say I graduated high school extremely believing, like very, very, very faithful.

Guest [01:14:25] John always asks this question, but I'm gonna ask it this.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] Go for it. You read my mind, right?

Guest [01:14:33] Is. Was there anything in your teenage years surrounding sexual shame that you want to. It's up to you. Anything that you want to share about that time period of your life?

Sexual Shame and Repentance as a Teenager

Laura Schnell [01:14:42] That's a really good question. I think thoughts. I did not want. I just realized. I said I think thoughts, of course, but what thoughts were the only thing that I remember just being like, oh, I can't. I can't think about that. And obviously you're a teenager, so you start to be attracted. But boys didn't pay attention to me because white boys didn't like brown girls at my school. That's not a thing. They always wanted white girls. That's what I told myself anyway. Because boys didn't like me. They didn't talk to me until my senior year. And I just didn't, you know, I. I didn't get to experience anything physical with anybody. I just had lots of thoughts. And I remember repenting. And I was like, I can't think about that. I remember my senior. No, junior year, I went to homecoming. No. What's the other one? Morp, which is prom backwards, where the girl asked the guy, with this guy I thought was so cute. And. And he didn't even hold my hand. It was a hand cup. And I was like. I remember being like, this might be too much because of what I was feeling. Not the hand holding. I was like, this is okay, but I was feeling way too much.

Guest [01:15:58] You're just attracted to him. Yeah. Normal teenage.

Laura Schnell [01:16:01] A normal hormonal Thing. Yeah. And of a 17 year old girl. But I felt like way, way too many things. And I was like, no, those things are too sexual. Like I, in my mind I was like, it's supposed to be like, you know, like that quote by. I think I'm pretty sure it was Kimball that a kiss between a boy and a girl should be like unto a boy kissing his mom. So I, I felt. And I learned that in seminary because chastity lessons were hard. But I remember being like, I shouldn't feel these things with him cupping my palm. Like I should, should. I should feel more of like an innocent love. Not like this.

John Dehlin [01:16:42] Whoa.

Laura Schnell [01:16:43] You know.

Guest [01:16:43] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:16:44] So I did feel terrible about it. Luckily I did grow up with my mom being Latina and that sexuality is a lot more normalized. It's just really. Yeah, it's just kind of the essence a little bit. It's more of like, hey, this is who we are versus like this is what we feel. Sometimes it's more like, hey, that's normal. So I did have a little bit of course correction because of that. But I still from what seminary taught me, I was like, I shouldn't be feeling this strong of things or be thinking because then my mind would wander. I'm like, what if he. And then I would stop myself and be like, I'm so sorry Heavenly Father. Like I'm sorry, you know, and then knowing that I said sorry, then I would feel better.

Guest [01:17:29] But.

Laura Schnell [01:17:30] But that was it.

Guest [01:17:31] Were you ever given those lessons about like if. Tell me if this is. Sounds familiar. I was taught this growing up. If you are unsure if you need to even repent to the bishop, you should probably go repent to the bishop just to be safe.

Laura Schnell [01:17:47] Yes.

Guest [01:17:48] Were you ever given that kind of idea?

Laura Schnell [01:17:49] Yes.

Guest [01:17:50] Cuz now I just have a funny idea. And you going to the bishop being like we were cupping hands. It was out of control.

Laura Schnell [01:17:55] It was. What do you think I should do? Yes, I was. In fact, I remember in seminary we learned about godly sorrow. Good, good video there. The song. And I remember being like. And later on someone asked what's the

John Dehlin [01:18:13] teaching of godly sorrow?

Laura Schnell [01:18:14] That well, she, she had sex with her boyfriend and then her returned missionary, Aaron Eckhart, you know what about the pain? He is like we should get married in the temple. And she's like, well. And then she tells her bishop and her bishop's like nope, you can't. You got it. Too bad that you sent out your invitations. Nope. And of course he's like this crusty old man and he's like, no, you have to feel godly sorrow. And then the song starts and godly sorrow is what you should feel in order to fully repent. And so later on in the lesson in seminary, someone said, but what should we talk about? What if we haven't done what this girl did with her puffy sleeves in Provo? What if we didn't do that? And I remember my seminary teacher saying, it doesn't. Whatever. Even if you think you did something, just talk to the bishop just to clear, just to clear your conscience. And I was like, okay, so. And I actually, and I wasn't planning on sharing this, but this is, I feel like maybe if someone out there, I don't know, can feel less alone. I remember being really scared and when you're growing up, you don't really know, you know, and you don't and you explore whatever. But I remember feeling like I could have a crush on this girl. And I was like, I feel really weird about this. And she was really cool. And I was like, but do I? And feeling that was the biggest one for me. I was like, no, this is a sin. I cannot be attracted to a girl. Nope. No. And honestly, now that you know, I, I'm a grown up and married to a man in a heterosexual marriage, I don't struggle with could I be. I, I'm working through a lot of shame based self talk, but I do want to talk back to my 17 year old self and tell her, if you do, it doesn't, it's okay. That's okay. If you don't, it's okay. If you do, it's okay. But I remember waking up, up crying and praying and writing my seminary teacher a letter. Like, what if you repent so much but you still aren't sure if you're forgiven and not. But being too scared to tell my seminary teacher that I was maybe having thoughts of possibly liking another girl. You know,

Guest [01:20:30] that's a confusing dynamic because it's not just like I'm having too far of thoughts maybe sexually about a boy in my head. If it's about a girl, that is something that now you are fundamentally wrong and that you feel like you're, you know, need to change something maybe fundamental to your sexuality and who you are. Yeah, that's a whole other ball game, right?

Laura Schnell [01:20:50] A whole other. Yeah. And, and that's what scared me is I was like, oh no, this. I for sure know this is a sin, so absolutely not. And I never double down after that. Yeah. Yeah. So I never let myself which comes into play later on as a seminary teacher when I have students coming to me. Yeah. And so anyway, I remember that one being a really strong experience of I have to repent now. I cannot procrastinate the day of my repentance. Right. Like Amulek says. So anyway, that's. That's the only. To your question, Kara, that. That's the biggest one for me is needing to be clean of even the thought of possibly the thought.

Guest [01:21:32] So anyway, and we will leave a link to the Godly Sorrow Seminary video in the description below. Because Kim needs like a day of raining. That video. I know exactly what you're talking about. She's like, but I'm not with that guy anymore. Bishop's like, get out of here.

Laura Schnell [01:21:51] Right. Send back your invitations. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:54] So I have not seen this.

Laura Schnell [01:21:57] Oh, you have to have seen this. Okay.

Guest [01:21:59] You were kicked out of the room, John De Lynn, if you haven't seen this.

Laura Schnell [01:22:03] Yeah. If you don't follow Latterday Labia on Instagram, you absolutely must, because she puts together these videos and she uses Flatter Day Labia.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] There's another show note.

Laura Schnell [01:22:14] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Guest [01:22:16] She's got the medallion, right?

Laura Schnell [01:22:18] Yeah.

Guest [01:22:19] Classy. I love that.

Laura Schnell [01:22:20] Right? So good. I know.

Guest [01:22:22] If you guys don't know what we're talking about. Latter Day Labia. Shout out.

Laura Schnell [01:22:25] Shout out. Yeah.

Guest [01:22:27] The young woman's medallion. A little bit. Use your imagination. Anyway.

Laura Schnell [01:22:31] Yeah, just. But she takes these videos that are no longer in circulation and she just kind of stitches them together. And it's really interesting because I'm like, hey, I remember watching that in seminary. And she's like, you did? And anyway, but you, you know, the video, I think John deserves, I think he deserves to watch it.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] Right?

Guest [01:22:50] Yeah. Zelf on the Shelf has an entire response video to it. That's really funny as well. Another shout out for that.

Laura Schnell [01:22:54] There you go.

John Dehlin [01:22:57] Okay, so you, you, you even as quote, righteous as you were, you were able to avoid kind of the, the shame parade of the bishop youth kind of one on one interview thing, but you still were tormented nonetheless, for the hand cupping and the handcuffing and the feeling of something for another young woman.

Laura Schnell [01:23:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] And just thoughts about men.

Guest [01:23:21] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] Yeah. Even the, even the quote, good ones are tormented. I think is. Is part of the lesson here. Right?

Laura Schnell [01:23:28] Yeah. Oh, no, you're never, you are. You are never safe. You just. You have to be. You have to be righteous all the time.

John Dehlin [01:23:34] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:23:35] You know, so.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] All right. Anything else about your high school years before we move on to, to college?

Laura Schnell [01:23:47] No.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] Okay.

Laura Schnell [01:23:49] High school was. High school. Was high school.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] So you could have done asu. You could have done.

Laura Schnell [01:23:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] You know, you could have done Mesa Community College. You could have done of Arizona and Tucson. Lots of options.

Laura Schnell [01:24:02] Yeah, lots of options. But no, because why would I. If I could be extra spiritual, why wouldn't I go to the Lord's university? And I actually wasn't even going to go to byu. I was going to go to BYU Idaho. And that's where I think another miracle is. I did not go to BYU Idaho. That would have just destroyed any last semblance of Brown complex I had, I think, in the bad way, of course. But. But I. Someone, my friend, my actual. My Mexican friend, the only other brown kid in my seminary class, he's like, hey, you should apply to byu. And I was like, no, I won't get in. But I applied and I got in, but I didn't have my. My. I wasn't a resident yet. A legal resident. So BYU was like, we can't accept you until you have your legal stuff in order. So they accepted me, but they kind of. They waited until I had all that. And so I went a semester after I was accepted. So I should have gone fall 2007, I went winter 2008, because I finally had my Social Security and I was. I had my green card, I had my papeles, so I was good to go.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] Nice.

Laura Schnell [01:25:16] Yeah. So I went to byu, and it was great. I loved. I loved byu. There was a lot more diversity than Gilbert, which is a sad thing to say, so when you think BYU is diverse. Yeah, but I.

Guest [01:25:36] You know, we got people from Provo, and Aurum, Ogden and Ogden. We got people from Point of the mountain, St. George. You actually were roommates with my friend Katie Kreste there, Fro. Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:25:51] Seriously.

Guest [01:25:52] That's why I was like, you got people from one mile up the street at Tempu. My friend. My goodness.

Laura Schnell [01:25:57] Seriously, Fro was amazing.

Guest [01:26:00] She was.

Laura Schnell [01:26:01] She was my very first. She was my ra and she played this joke on me because I went on the. I never dated. Remember?

John Dehlin [01:26:07] Was this Healing Halls or.

Laura Schnell [01:26:09] No, this was yv, back when Yvue was open to. To the peasants, not married people. So she was in NRA and Fro. She. I remember.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] Did she have hair or something?

Guest [01:26:22] She just.

Laura Schnell [01:26:23] Hair was kind of hair. I don't know why she went by Fro. Why did she go.

Guest [01:26:26] Like a childhood nickname. That never went away.

Laura Schnell [01:26:28] That never went away. Okay. So this guy invited. This guy, asked me and. Okay. At byu, the dating all rms. All our m. Spanish speaking. And I started putting two and two together. I'm like, I just remind you of your mission. That's why you want to go out with me. And so this older. I mean, I was 18, and this guy, I was 28 maybe, and he was like, you know, invited me, and I'm just. You know, all I have under my belt is hand cupping.

John Dehlin [01:26:54] Right.

Laura Schnell [01:26:54] So I have no, like, no experience. He's asking me out. He's super attractive, and he's like, do you want to come into my room? And I was like, okay. So I sit on his bed, and he just kind of. He sits next to me, and I remember, like, putting my hands on my lap, and I was like, like, I think you should drop me off. And he was like, oh, we're not doing anything. I was like, yeah, I just. Let's just. Can we go? And I went home and I told Fro. I said fro. I went in this guy's room and Fro was like, okay, I have to call the honor code office. Sorry. And I was like, no, but we didn't do anything. And she was like, I'm just kidding. I would never. I was like, oh, go. So that's Rob.

High School, BYU, and Racial Dynamics

John Dehlin [01:27:39] Got a shout out to Fro. Wherever you are, shout out to Fro. Message me. I want to give you a thumbs up.

Laura Schnell [01:27:44] Oh, that's awesome. She'll love that.

John Dehlin [01:27:46] So she listen to warm stories just for.

Guest [01:27:47] She better. She's an, like, an out lesbian now,

Laura Schnell [01:27:50] so she for sure is.

Guest [01:27:51] Right? Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:27:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:53] Did you know she was lesbian at the time?

Laura Schnell [01:27:55] I had no. I had suspicions because we would. We would go through the word list and circle.

John Dehlin [01:28:00] This is the life of Fro.

Laura Schnell [01:28:01] The life of Fro. This is how we knew about you.

Guest [01:28:05] It's actually important. There is like a dynasty kind of thing because they're gonna love that we're talking about them. Fro and Brittany Herdman Mangleson, who is a minister at Community of Christ, you know. Yeah. So Fro and Brittany are lifelong friends, and they're like. Like friends of mine as well. Do you know Brittany?

Laura Schnell [01:28:20] I do, because Fro always talked about Britney.

Guest [01:28:22] Great. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:23] They're like the embedded lives of Fro and Brittany in Laura and Kara in Laura Schnell's interview.

Guest [01:28:28] Okay, go on. Yeah. So there is like a. This ex Mormon dynasty here.

Laura Schnell [01:28:33] That's so cool. And she probably has no clue about. Okay. Anyway, so she will be watching clues about Fro.

John Dehlin [01:28:40] So suspicions.

Laura Schnell [01:28:41] She. We would go through the page, you know, the. The they called it the menu. I hate that they called it the ward menu.

John Dehlin [01:28:51] Which was.

Laura Schnell [01:28:51] Which was pictures of everyone in the ward.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] It's like the Facebook.

Laura Schnell [01:28:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] The word Facebook.

Laura Schnell [01:28:56] Yes. And of course, every bishop at byu, right, they want to get you married. And so of course put a picture up. Right. And if. If it was a rich reward, it was color pictures. So we were looking through and we would circle and we always asked, oh, I'm sorry, I just moved that. But we always asked Fro, who do you think is cute? And she's like, nah. I'm like, what about him? No. And one time it was just her and I in the apartment. I'm like, do you think any guy's cute? And she's. She's like, I think they're all dog faced. And I was like, oh, and you. You probably think it's funnier, Cara, because, you know, Fro. But I remember being like, what is that?

Guest [01:29:33] What?

Laura Schnell [01:29:33] And she was like, they're all ugly. And I remember being like, maybe she's not attracted to guys. Maybe she's not. And she's not. So.

Guest [01:29:41] Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:29:42] Anyway, she was a great roommate.

Guest [01:29:44] I bet there's a certain level of like just being a pessimist comedian of like, you know, sometimes. Yeah, I would have probably said the same thing. But I was absolutely, wildly heterosexual,

Laura Schnell [01:29:59] so

Guest [01:29:59] I would have said the same thing. It's just because I'm pessimistic about, you know, all of the losers or something.

Laura Schnell [01:30:03] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [01:30:04] No one's dating me or something.

Laura Schnell [01:30:05] Right. And that's what I thought. I was like, oh, she's just, you know, it's just Fro. She hates everything, but so from then

John Dehlin [01:30:11] on, it was always side eyeing Fro. Basically. She's a questionable.

Laura Schnell [01:30:16] She's questionable. And she was. But Fro loved the Tabernacle Choir and she would. She was the first person that would take me to watch the. Which was so cool and so spiritual to go to the rehearsals. Remember, you could go on Thursdays. Spirit so strong.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:30:33] She just said that you both liked to clown.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] You're texting Fro?

Guest [01:30:36] Yeah, you're texting Fro.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] Okay.

Laura Schnell [01:30:39] Hey, Fro, that you like to clown

Guest [01:30:41] on Pioneers and Petticoats.

Laura Schnell [01:30:43] Oh, yes, we loved Pioneers and Petticoats. Have you seen that one? It's another classic Mormon one where a girl almost. She. She gets the. The lust.

John Dehlin [01:30:53] Is this a video?

Laura Schnell [01:30:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:54] Okay. Show notes.

Laura Schnell [01:30:55] The lust in the world.

John Dehlin [01:30:56] And show notes.

Laura Schnell [01:30:57] She makes it back.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] So anyway, she makes it back.

Laura Schnell [01:31:00] What she. She wants, she doesn't she wants to be a modest. It was back. Do you remember the Retrenchment Society? Brigham Young's first young women's organization. Retrenchment Society. She didn't want to wear the petticoats because they were too long. So everyone was like, you're immodest. And then she wanted to go and drink. And then she almost had a. Like a sexual assault experience. And then that was God's way of teaching her to be modest. And so she comes back and she's a good, modest girl. And it's called Pioneers in Petticoats.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] Okay, I'll write that because Kara's texting fro.

Guest [01:31:32] So I'm right.

Laura Schnell [01:31:34] I can't believe she wrote.

Guest [01:31:35] Please tell more stories about my friends. This is the greatest.

Laura Schnell [01:31:38] Pioneers and Petticoats. Johnny Lingo. We used to do that one. We used to roll that one, too.

Guest [01:31:42] So, yeah, you're describing this area, like, time at BYU. This is probably around like 2008,

John Dehlin [01:31:50] right?

Laura Schnell [01:31:50] Yep. 2008.

Guest [01:31:51] Yeah. Just like the. Just. Yeah. Good times. Like, I know we talk about a lot of things about the church. There is a fun dynamic when you get fun girls in the church. That's why I had such a good experience in the church. Like, my friends are hilarious. You can have good experiences at BYU if you have the right roommates who are into, you know, the right niche.

Laura Schnell [01:32:11] The right Mormon niche videos. Yeah, yeah. No, it's so true. I. And I had roommates like fro and that were funny and light and would, you know, make fun of things and not take things too seriously. And then I had roommates who were.

John Dehlin [01:32:26] I just want to say everyone needs a fro.

Laura Schnell [01:32:28] Everyone.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] So fro you're invited to come on warmer stories. I'm going to. I'm going to make it.

Laura Schnell [01:32:32] You should actually. You know what that would be.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] Well, I just have to. I'm going to make a really embarrassing announcement. I have never interviewed a lesbian on Mormon Stories podcast and we're almost 1500 hours in. This is. I'm revolting.

Guest [01:32:45] We're interviewing her through text. This is embarrassing.

Laura Schnell [01:32:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:48] So I've talked to the latter day lesbians about it, but, you know, we need to. That's just a glaring. Revolting, in my view, a mission. So fro. Maybe you'll be the first, maybe not. We'll see.

Guest [01:33:00] Yeah, she's actually a producer of a new station in la. So she's like. She's wonderful and legit. She's too big for us, honestly.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] Okay, all right, never mind. We'll aim our sights lower.

Laura Schnell [01:33:11] She can come.

Guest [01:33:11] Yeah, she's gonna come in here and be like, carrie, you need to clean this place up. What kind of producer are you? That's what she's gonna do.

Laura Schnell [01:33:16] She is so. I. I can't believe that. We all need a fro. You would love her. She's great. Katie. I didn't even know her real name really. I just knew I was Fro.

Guest [01:33:24] Yeah, same.

Laura Schnell [01:33:25] So. But Fro and I had one crazy roommate and she. And by that I just mean extremely extra like couldn't listen to Tchaikovsky because he was gay. Just wouldn't. Oh yeah, Fro would kind of like, she would always kind of give me that. The eye whenever that roommate was around. Just kind of like, yeah, like Fro knew. Yeah. But she was the ra, so she kind of had to, you know, But. But for the most part, BYU was like a fro experience. Just good. Funny. Sometime Bishop Bricks were interesting here and there, but for the most part, really great dating with.

Guest [01:34:03] Was.

Laura Schnell [01:34:03] Dating was good. You know, I was very righteous still. So always. So it was learning and I, I learned. My dad always jokes, he's like, I sent you to BYU and you came back liberal. And I was like, yeah, I mean, education. I was just. And even then, you know, I wasn't liberal. I was just open minded. You know, I took a world religions class. I actually didn't. I had a professor who was a world religious teacher who would always talk about things. And I remember being like, okay, maybe they're not wrong. Maybe it's just different. So that was the first time I let myself explore those things was at byu. So that's why BYU was really important for my growth, was exploring.

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Okay, how did you get liberal at byu?

Laura Schnell [01:34:46] Oh, because I took some classes from a professor who. I love him. I still keep in touch with him. He was kind of a loose cannon. Taught at the Jerusalem Center. Then went. Was not allowed back in. And because he wasn't. Because he didn't want to just do the narrative of, you know, Palestinians are bad Israel. He was like, let's look at both sides. Like, Palestinians suffer just as much as Israel. So he. And it was a geography class that I took from him. And so he was very good at saying, hey, don't choose sides. Learn both sides. Look at. And I never let myself. So I came home and I was like, did you know that also the Palestinians suffered also in Israel in life. My dad was like, so. So he was just like, what? And yeah, so a lot of open mindedness with that So I. I loved it, but I wanted to go on a mission really bad, and I was dating someone, so that was really hard. And dating was always about marriage, obviously, but I never felt that marriage was just. My mom just didn't raise me. I mean, I come from divorced parents, so it wasn't like marriage was. Was this silver platter. It was like, okay, well, it is what we do. But my mom was always like, please be smart, be careful. Like, be. You know, open your eyes. She was never like, marry the first guy you meet. So I had that from my mom because she had experience. And so anyway. But I knew I was gonna marry a. A white rm. I didn't know that you didn't wanna

John Dehlin [01:36:18] marry a person of color.

Laura Schnell [01:36:20] Absolutely not. No.

John Dehlin [01:36:21] Because.

Laura Schnell [01:36:21] No.

Guest [01:36:22] It wasn't on the menu.

Laura Schnell [01:36:23] It was not on the menu. He wasn't on the award menu.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] Well, there probably weren't a lot of them first.

Laura Schnell [01:36:29] They weren't. And. And frankly, if there were, they probably didn't want to marry me either. Really. That's. That's kind of the sentiment I got sometimes.

Guest [01:36:37] I'm like. I usually flip tables sometimes when I get angry about, like, church injustice, but any man wouldn't want to.

Laura Schnell [01:36:44] Hello, you're very.

John Dehlin [01:36:46] Or vice versa. It's just. I don't know.

Laura Schnell [01:36:50] So it's. Yeah, yeah. The fact. Right, Exactly. So many good. And I had friends that were my. My Latino friends, but I knew I was like, I could never date you. I would never date you. Like, you would. What would be. I'd go from Garcia to what, Gonzalez? No, Like, I'm not. That's just not. It's just not what we were. You know, my sister and I always joked about that. She was like, I am not going from Garcia to another Spanish last name. So. Which is terrible. Terrible. I mean, this could be, you know, our kids we're talking about here. Imagine my brown son thinking, no, no brown girl wants to marry me. It's. It's terrible.

Guest [01:37:26] Are there similar. I'm trying to learn here. Are there cinema similar sentiments then? Like, what you just said are. Is that how a lot of maybe, like, Latino men would say is that they're also trying to marry, like, white Mormon women when they are, you know, going to byu? Like, is there just, like, this disconnection here?

Laura Schnell [01:37:45] I don't. I don't know. Honestly, I don't. I know. I. From my friends, my brown friends. It later, like, when it became cooler to be cultural, later on, they wanted to marry a white girl because if she spoke Spanish because She would. Because it was that faithful thing. Because white people are faithful. And so it was kind of like, well, yeah, because she'll come from a strong family. She won't come from convert parents. She'll come from a strong, you know, 25th generation American Fork. And that's what we want. And so it was kind of. And again, it's so unsaid. No one comes out and says, I want to marry. But it's just kind of the. Well, are you attracted to her? No, I'm attracted to her. Her dad's a mission president. Oh, so you kind of like don't say it without saying it. And so. But my brown guy friends would tell me, you know, culture's important to me. I need to be able to marry someone who respects and understands the culture. But having Latina moms, I think they're like, but I don't want to marry a Latina. And some would. I did have brown guys who were like, I only want to marry Latinas. They're the only ones who are going to keep my language and my children in the language and the culture. And so it's hard. It's hard to say. Yeah, it's hard to say. For the girls, though, it is kind of that strong family of a white RM priesthood holder. There is a stereotype about Latino men being a little lax. This is why branches have a hard time becoming stakes in Latino wards or Latinx or Latin a. Whatever you choose to say. But anyway, it's really interesting.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] I was just having the thought that this is going to be the wrong words. But it's all gross. It's gross if Latina Mormon women only want to marry women, white men, because they were taught that white men are righteous priesthood holders. It's gross if Latino Mormon men only want to marry white women because they want whiteness. But it's also gross if. Only if Latina. If Latinx Mormons only want to marry each other because they have to stay in their race or class. And then it's gross if whites want to just marry each other because of white supremacy. Like, I can't find a scenario that doesn't disturb me. And I think I've just covered all the scenarios. Right.

Laura Schnell [01:40:12] I know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] Race makes every. Racism makes everything weird.

Laura Schnell [01:40:16] I guess it does. And we're all victims. I always tell my friends this. I'm like, we are all victims of white supremacy. All of us. It's not. No one is untouched. We really all. And of colonialism. All of us. We all are. And so I had. I Remember in. When I was in India and we'll get to this. But I was talking to my, my guy friends, my white guy friends, and I said, why don't, why don't white guys ever. They like, they like the Latinas, but then they end up marrying just, you know, their next door neighbor girl who's probably their fifth cousin, and they're like, well. And my, My friend told me, I still remember. And I thought about it for so long. He's like, honestly, it's just, it's too. It's just too much to make two cultures work. Which is true. You are taught that. I was taught that in my Book of Mormon class that I can't remember if it was Kimball or Harold Beatley. Don't. Don't blend. Do not interracially marry. Just don't do it. And my Book of Mormon teacher did teach it in a nuanced way. He was like, I know some of you might think this is bad, but think about how marriage is hard already and how if it's interracial, it's even worse, blah, blah, blah. So my white guy friends would be like, I could marry a Latina, but she'd have to. She couldn't be a fob, which means fresh off the bus boat. Like, if. She would have to be like you, Laura, how you like our white passing. So, so, you know, to just make it less. Whatever. So it is, it is all. All gross. Instead of valuing as humans, like, I like you and you happen to be white, let's get married. Not just, I need to marry this for that. And it really, I do want to specify. I. Some people might hear this and think, well, I'm not like that. But yeah, and. And it's, it's. It's what we ingest is how we unsay things that we. It's all unconscious or subconscious. So anyway.

John Dehlin [01:42:06] But when you know better, you do better, I guess.

Laura Schnell [01:42:08] Yeah, hopefully. Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. When you have kids. Major wake up call. So anyway, but I dated. I was engaged. Broke it off.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] Why'd you break it off?

Laura Schnell [01:42:20] He wasn't sure if he loved me. Me.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] So that's a problem. Why'd you get engaged again?

Guest [01:42:25] I'm like, who are these men? Laura, over here.

John Dehlin [01:42:28] Why'd you get engaged?

Laura Schnell [01:42:30] How or why?

John Dehlin [01:42:31] Why? If you weren't. If he wasn't sure?

Laura Schnell [01:42:33] Because it was. It. The pressure. The pressure. And. And I was a senior. I had graduated already, and he was about, yeah. Oh, running out of time at BYU.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] 20. What?

Laura Schnell [01:42:45] Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:45] 3.

Laura Schnell [01:42:46] 23. And he was gonna graduate. And he was like, okay, here's the next step, and I like you. And he was very, very. Misogyny ran deep in him, though. So he. Yeah, it was good that we broke it off. It was very good. And then I didn't go on a mission. I felt like I needed to. I prayed about it. It wasn't in my patriarchal blessing, which was devastating because it was in my sister's. And I was like, oh, no. And my sister's patriarchal blessing is really cool. So I always. Always, like, what? She was going to serve a mission. She was the righteous Lamanites. It said it. It didn't say it with me. It did say it with her. She was righteous Lamanite, going to serve a mission. Mine was very. Just bland. Just like, you will be good and you will marry in the temple. And so I wanted more. And that was frustrating for me because I was so, tell me what to do and I'll do it. And so my patriarchal blessing always frustrated me because of that, because it didn't tell me what to do. And I needed to know so that I could. And I must obey, you know, Nephi's words. And I prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed. No answer about the mission. But I was sitting in an international development class. Dave Schuller, may he rest in peace, he was an amazing professor. And he. He said, you know, if he said something along the lines of just kind of doing what your soul wants or, you know, something not even profound, really. And it hit me, and I was like, okay, I'm not going to go on a mission. I'm going to go to India. And so I went to India instead. What? So it was awesome. So he. It was an international development program, which BYU no longer does because it's. It was too hippie, so they got rid of. Wasn't. It was not a study abroad. I am very passionate about because study abroads are great, but that's just not the purpose of the program. It was to go observ nerve and write reports, and that's it. It was to take cultural notes. Very anthropologically minded.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] So almost clinical.

Laura Schnell [01:44:47] Yeah. Just kind of like, hey, academic. Yeah, don't. Don't. You're not trying to teach anyone English. No one's. No nothing. You're just. You're there observing, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:44:58] That's good. Is that good?

Laura Schnell [01:44:59] It was great. Oh, it was really good. Yeah. Because then we weren't there. Trying to. With this mindset of, here are. We are educated Americans.

John Dehlin [01:45:08] Cultural colonialism.

Laura Schnell [01:45:09] Yeah. Yeah, we weren'. We just went there and it turned me inside out. And I mean, India was life changing.

Living and Teaching in India

John Dehlin [01:45:17] What did you learn in India? Like, I know that you can't summarize it.

Laura Schnell [01:45:21] Yeah. First of all, I did not feel anxiety, which is. I was at BYU. I was diagnosed with anxiety disorder at 21, my 21st birthday. I had a terrible panic attack and didn't know where anything was coming from. And. And so much pressure on myself, you know, But I just felt like India was the only place where I didn't feel it. And it was because I was so immersed in not doing everything that I was taught to do. We didn't really go to church. Was only two hours, you know, so. And no calling. It was. I wasn't strictly doing everything. India was relaxing, even though it was really hard. And I lived in a village with, you know, sleeping on the floor. But it was emotionally and spiritually a lot easier than being home and expectations and everything. I don't know if that makes sense. Physically, really hard, culturally, really hard, spiritually, I felt free there and. And being around Hindus and feeling like, wait a minute, these Hindus are for sure going to heaven. And I know they're not going to get baptized. So that was interesting for me. That was kind of a. Oh, okay. These people are so Christ. Like, they don't even know who Jesus is. You know, these people who would feed me just to. Because they would feed me and they wouldn't expect anything other in return. That was kind of like. That doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] There's that famous Mark Twain quote we keep quoting, which is, travel is fatal to prejudice.

Laura Schnell [01:47:02] Yes, yes, exactly. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:47:05] So that's if you're not on a Christian colonialist mission. Yes, Maybe that's the exception.

Laura Schnell [01:47:13] With the exception of. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:15] And then it reinforces prejudice.

Laura Schnell [01:47:18] Exactly. I agree that so. But that's why it was so good, because we weren't there for anything. No mission, no teaching anything, no building anything.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] Learn.

Laura Schnell [01:47:27] Just go and learn. Yeah. And then we were the last group. BYU discontinued us.

Guest [01:47:33] Did they have a bunch of different ones, like in different countries?

Laura Schnell [01:47:35] They did, yeah. They had on Fiji, India, Tonga, Mexico, Europe. Yeah. Fields. It was called BYU field studies. So field knowledge notes, you know, so you take field notes and you have to. You. The way that BYU legitimized it is you have to go with it, with the project idea. And so they're like, just give us a project idea. What are you gonna do there? And so mine was women's self perception. Well, how do women perceive themselves?

John Dehlin [01:48:02] Nice.

Laura Schnell [01:48:03] And basically all I did was just hang around village women and learn from their incredible essence. They're just the most magnificent people. People and all Hindu. So that was confusing because I was like, you're so good, but you don't have the light. But you do have the light. And I'm really confused.

Guest [01:48:21] So it was a billion of you.

Laura Schnell [01:48:23] And there's a bill, literally, India is the second largest country in the world. I don't. But I will say, though, the village we stayed in because it was byu, they did have a little tiny branch. So there were a little. I mean. And by little tiny, I mean like nine members, maybe on a good day. And they were Mormon and yet so Hindu. Everything. I mean, nose. The young women's president had a nose ring because Indian women especially traditionally have the nose piercing. I mean, things like that, where they didn't quite get that. But I was in India when Elder Oaks organized the first steak ever in India. So we got to go and I got to hear him say some interesting thing at the time. Again, I'm really strong and very devout, but that was the first time where I knew that maybe an apostle could maybe say not the right thing.

John Dehlin [01:49:19] What'd he say?

Laura Schnell [01:49:20] Well, he. I mean, a stake in India is a big deal. It was in Hyderabad 2012. And he, he says, I just want you to know that the stake was organized because other people are faithful and you need to, essentially, you need to, you know, we need to raise the bar. You need to be faithful. We need more tithing payers. And we have a stake patriarch. And he will only be the patriarch of this stake. So if you've come from out of the stake, you may not get a patriarchal blessing, even if you want one. You will have to wait. It's very like, like you can't do this, you can't do that. That instead of celebratory. And there was plenty of celebratory things. But I just remember that talk being like. And then he said, and I don't anticipate a temple being built in India in your lifetime. There needs to be way more tithing and more. More righteousness for that to happen. And lol. That there's a Bangalore temple being built or announced, I guess.

Guest [01:50:22] Really?

Laura Schnell [01:50:23] Yeah, I think two years ago, maybe three years ago was announced so in Bangalore, south India. So.

John Dehlin [01:50:28] But the big problems with you with his talk were just to summarize the way though, I.

Laura Schnell [01:50:34] And he said, remember, your culture is important, but what's more important now is your. Your culture and identity as A Latter Day Saint. And that just, I mean, I have just spent time with these people and I'm like, no, don't tell them their culture isn't. I mean, obviously I understand that your identity is way more than just your culture, but it was the way he was saying, he's like, that's secondary. You're a Mormon first. That's the most important thing. You're, you know, you're an Indian second. You're a Mormon first. And I just, I was sat there and I was like, I don't know about that. I don't really like that. And it was, it felt condescending and it felt like he was asking a lot when these people, I mean, I drew. I was on a bus, the bus from hell for 18 hours without a pee break. Kara, if you can imagine, only the boys could stop and pee. We could it. So that was long. And I wasn't even an Indian person. Imagine the people who are coming from Delhi or from other places. And here's this apostle saying, you guys can't get, get patriarchal blessings. That's just for the stake and just things that are kind of like dampers. And so I just kind of felt disappointed a little. But I thought, well, maybe it's good for them to hear it, maybe to help them pay tithing even though they're poor. When you, as a Hindu, when you become a Christian, you have to denounce Hinduism, meaning that you denounce caste, meaning because there's programs for caste systems. So some of the villagers were lower caste. And so you get a government aid. When you become a Christian, you denounce that. So you no longer get government aid. So these people who are, you know, struggling now, they become Mormon and they're so faithful and they denounce that, that. But now they can't get help and they have to pay tithing. So that to me at that time was kind of frustrating and difficult, but I didn't let myself question that. I just was sad.

Guest [01:52:27] A little interesting. Can I ask a follow up question about that?

Laura Schnell [01:52:31] Yeah.

Guest [01:52:31] Because so many people do join the church and they pay tithing and they assume that they will get, you know, quadruple the blessings back. Was that like the attitude of a lot of these, like Indian Latter Day Saints, that either they saw the blessings or maybe like your family and queens like that. The, the, even though they were poor, they saw the miracles from the church. Like, what are your reflections now that you look back at, like what they gave up and what they got out of their attendance in the church.

Laura Schnell [01:53:00] Yeah. That's such a good question. The. What I saw, for the most part, was that they really were so willing to give. Give everything because they knew, for. I don't know how they knew, but they just knew that if they could get themselves to the temple that it would be okay. And so.

Guest [01:53:21] Meaning, like a ceiling or just have a temple recommend.

Laura Schnell [01:53:25] Yeah, even a temple recommend. And so they. And so that was the. That was the pinnacle for them was if I. If I get to go to the temple and experience the highest blessings and I get to have all of that I'm being taught, then it's easy. It's not a sacrifice even anymore. It's easy for me to give this up. It's easy for me to. To be poor but have faith. And so it's hard. I saw it as. But. But you're still suffering. You still don't have food on the table, you still don't have a house, you still don't have a job, but I don't. It's hard for me to say, you know, what did they get out of it?

Guest [01:54:06] Yeah. I hate to speak into people's stories like I do. I really don'. To, you know, judge people's spirituality where they find peace. And there's obviously ways that people can have spiritual experiences in every different walk of life and whatever kind of deity that they worship. So I think the same. Just like. I think the thing that we're talking about here is, like, how much of their culture was replaced by like a very. I don't know, just like a really cool church that we love here at. I'm just going to say nice things to them.

Laura Schnell [01:54:44] Yeah.

Guest [01:54:44] Just like. Yeah. Just kind of things. Just really superseding their own culture. And I'm like, I. I don't want to speak too much into what they could have or couldn't have gotten out of it. That's up to every individual to decide. I was just curious your perspective on. Yeah. Like, in terms of. As well, welfare, maybe of like, the caste system, that if they had to give that up.

Laura Schnell [01:55:04] Yeah. They had to give that up. Yeah. And. And that one is a big one, in my opinion. Once you become a Christian, you denounce that. So I was like, okay, so you denounce your free rice portion for the month. Okay.

Guest [01:55:19] Like, do they have a bishop storehouse kind of situation there or. No.

Laura Schnell [01:55:21] You know, I'm not sure. I'm not. I know that there's. There are more affluent families typically, though, and this is probably right for a lot of situations. The more affluent people don't join the church. Some do for sure, but I. They denounced that. So that was one thing. Another thing that kind of hurt too, to watch kind of like shed, like, don't know, don't get rid of. That is some Hindu things that are important, like puja, like the daily prayer. And that's very Hindu. And it almost becomes. And I saw my Mormon Indian friends say it when I would ask about Hinduism, it became a thing of almost shame. Like, oh, but. But that's Hinduism. We don't do that anymore, sister. We don't do that. And I'm like, you don't. You don't have to convince me. I believe that you don't do that. But why don't you? Because that's. Because now we believe in Jesus. So this kind of like looking back at what you used to do and kind of feeling embarrassed and rather than like, oh, yeah, that was, you know, that's what we used to do as a family when we were Hindu, but now we're not. It's almost like, no, no, no, no, don't associate me with that. I'm Mormon now. So that made me sad of. Of kind of. I mean, in Hinduism, it's so rich and traditional and it's way more than a religion. It's a lifestyle.

Guest [01:56:39] Right.

Laura Schnell [01:56:39] And so that kind of hurt to see, especially now. It hurts me now to see man, so much of it shed. And in their dress too. Like.

Guest [01:56:49] Right. I was going to ask that, how

Laura Schnell [01:56:50] do they dress, the women? Luckily, I. I love especially traditional village women. They'll still wear their churidars if they're single and their saris if they are married. Married, but. And the men wear shirts and ties, which is funny to me. But they usually, the men will wear, you know, just jeans and a T shirt. So it's fairly. Not a huge change. But for example, Hindu women, they put red powder in their part, in their hair to signify that they're married. And they stop doing that once they all. All the more men, Mormon, Hindu or all the Mormon Indian women that I talked to, they were like, we don't know. We don't do that. We don't do that. So I was like, why? This is just cultural, you know, or so that to me, to shed who you are for a religion's sake, to me, I don't know. I have strong feelings about it. I just think, I think it wears on you a little bit.

Guest [01:57:48] Yeah. And I think you're somebody who can probably speak to that really well. Since we were going and talking more about like the Lamanite doctrine and things that a lot of people have to adopt to feel like they are being complacent in the new theology, the new ideology, that, you know, maybe the children of these, like former, you know, these converts to the Mormon church that were Hindu, just the same way that maybe you or other people, you know, you start to have a complex about where you come from that is just really unfair.

Laura Schnell [01:58:21] Yeah, that's exactly. It is. You start to have a complex of literally your heritage. And that should never be a thing where you feel embarrassed or ashamed about a tradition. You know, that's not harmful. It's just a tradition, a cultural tradition. And so that to me, what. So when he said that, Kara, I'm so glad you asked that because it kind of brings it full circle. So when he said that, I kind of watched it. I'm like, oh, that's why you do that, do that. Because you have an, an apostle who speaks for God saying to do that. So that's why you're doing it. You know, you should be embarrassed of it because it's the right thing to do. If you're trying to be more righteous because you're Mormon now, right? You're not Hindu anymore, you're not Indian, you're Mormon.

Guest [01:59:03] Yeah. There's no way to tease out sometimes that Mormonism is a high demand religion where you have a lot of strict adherence to the brethren and to the doctrine and to your temple covenants. Covenants. And I am assuming that, you know, first generation Mormons, wherever they are in the world, they maybe they don't know what to tease out of, what they should keep from their, their, their old, their old way of life to their new way of life. Because it's so a 2ft all in

Laura Schnell [01:59:32] type of religion and something that when you said that, I remember sitting in the village and this lady, this woman, she was, was like, help me prepare my lesson. And it was about the pioneers. And I was like, why do you care about this is. We're, we're the Utah pioneers. Yes, the Utah. Uh huh. And she was like, can I. What, what is the, what is the trek? And I said, okay, a trek is when you. And she's like, okay, what is, what is carriage? What is a hand cart? And I said, you know, why are we spending this valuable. You could be learning like this would be a cool lesson about like Rama and Sita and the Ramayana and some cool Hindu tradition. Like instead you're learning about some people in the 1800s, thousands and thousands of miles away crossing the snow. And so that to me, I'm like, man, precious time. And wanting to understand it too. She's like, but I want to understand. I want to know what the pioneers did. They sacrifice so much. And I'm like, you sacrifice so much? Yes, they sacrifice so much. No disrespect there. Absolutely. But this is so irrelevant to you. And so it almost feels like, hey, become Mormon here in India, embrace all of these things spiritually and also culturally, embrace cultural Mormonism, Learn about pioneers and trek and handcarts. And it's like, why? For what? So that's. That was interesting for me to see.

Guest [02:01:01] Yeah, yeah. And that's what's really difficult is I never, or. I don't want people to get the wrong idea about what, what this conversation is about or what Mormon stories does or, you know, the opinions at hand here of like, I want people to find meaning and find value in, in beliefs that push them to be a better person. And if people connect with the Mormon teachings and that's what, what gives them peace and value in whatever stage in life that they're in. Like, I'm not going to discount that, but that there, there are ideas forwarded from just different colonial mindsets that we are all victims of that have kind of left over. And if we don't do the job to President Oaks could so much easier, more easily find the words to invite these two cultures to maybe the, the Mormon or he's, he's more inviting them to teach him or teach us or instead of a. Going into another country and we're going to do, supersede, you know, what you're taught and your, your ideas around religion. So I'm glad we're having this conversation because I hope that people are picking up kind of what we're talking about and not what we're talking about. It's not to discount that these people find meaning in Mormonism. I want, I want, I think, I think that those things can go hand in hand. It's about doing it responsibly and understanding like the externality of superseding people's cultures and, and maybe the effects that it has on their kids and grandkids about maybe giving them a complex.

Laura Schnell [02:02:37] So, yeah, I mean, that's so true.

John Dehlin [02:02:40] I think the legacy of Christian missionary work is cultural colonialism and even cultural genocide where the white culture just erases the, the native culture. And it's a bummer and it's a problem. And I think the church from, from My context within the church, they're, they're realizing it's a problem. It's fine when America is associated with hot dogs and apple pie and the Yankees and Michael Jordan, you know, and everything that's good globally, then that's great. But there's a downside to that. If America starts to be associated with war and genocide and values that are racist or whatever, then that can tear the church down. So the church has been in this battle over the past 10, 20 years of like, well, what actually is the gospel? Gospel and what's like white Utah culture.

Laura Schnell [02:03:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] Can it, can you pass the sacrament in a, in a multi colored tunic in Africa or do you have to wear a white shirt and tie? Like what? And I think the church is split because I think the church often thinks like IBM or McDonald's, which is like, you want, the whole idea of McDonald's is you want the same, you want a Big Mac to take the same. And in India that it does in the United States. And I think the brethren want the war to feel Mormon, you know, whether it's in India or the United States. But, but I think that's also coming back to bite the church now that people like America a lot less globally. And so I think it's always going to be attention. I was just going to ask, I was, I, I, we really. If there's anyone who's ever actually been a Mormon in India, and I think I know somebody. I want to have you on Mormon stories. I think I know somebody. So this reminds me, Carol, you write this down. I know someone from India that we can have a more.

Guest [02:04:26] We're always trying to get more like multicultural guests as well. Yeah, just like you're talking about that. We want to know how the franchise model is going over well, you know, in South Africa or wherever else.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] But I actually know someone who converted to Mormonism in India. So Kara's going to remind me to reach out to that person, schedule them for Mormon stories. They live in Cache Valley, actually. But what I was going to say is that, that I was torn listening to you talk about the caste system and renouncing it. Because it wasn't until I was an adult that I learned, and I read a biography of Gandhi, that the caste system in India, number one, is highly stratified. It's super unkind and unfair to the poor.

Laura Schnell [02:05:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:05:08] And it's based on skin color. Like the caste system is like the darker you are, the lower your caste is. And that has all sorts of significance when it comes to jobs. And opportunity and intermarrying and you're born into.

Laura Schnell [02:05:20] You can't jump castes.

John Dehlin [02:05:21] Yeah. So, like, when you're telling me the more affiliation with the Christian or Mormon church is then encouraging them to renounce the caste system, there's part of me that's like, yay, that caste system is. Is worse than the Book of Mormon. Right. But I know you're talking about the socioeconomic implications of renouncing it, and you want these people to be able to eat, and that's what you're saying.

Guest [02:05:42] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] I was just. I just want to ask one quick question. Then we probably should jump to the next part of your story. Why isn't the. You know, we know that the church spread like wildfire in Mexico and in Latin America, South America, we know that it spread like wildfire in the Philippines. We know that it's spread like wildfire in Africa. But in China and India, like, which is. I don't know if people know this. Half of the world's population lives in two countries, China and India. And the church is like nothing in China and India. Why is the church not spreading like wildfire in India? Do you have any, Any, Any idea? Is it the government? Is it just the culture? Is it racism on our part? Like, what is it?

Laura Schnell [02:06:20] I. I honestly, I wish I knew. I could. I have guesses. But my, My only thought is that Christianity as a whole is not. Christianity is big in these countries. You mentioned, Right. Catholicism. The Philippines was a, you know, Spain took over the Philippines, so we have Catholicism there.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] So it's only one step.

Laura Schnell [02:06:45] Then you pick up.

John Dehlin [02:06:45] Yeah, it's an easier step from Christianity to Mormonism.

Laura Schnell [02:06:48] Absolutely. But suddenly you have India that has. First of all, Hinduism is the official religion. But then you have, you know, you have Islam, you have Jainism, you have Buddhism. Those are the tractions, you know, the

John Dehlin [02:07:02] bridge too far for many people.

Laura Schnell [02:07:04] It is. I think so. And also something that people don't know about India. I think that I didn't when I went there. Is every state has a language. Yes. The language. Is Hinduism the official language or Hindi. That's the religion. Hindi and then English, the two official languages, English and Hindi, because it used to be, you know, British. But every state has a language. That's near impossible. Right. In fact, in the village, we used to sing this, the hymns in English. These villagers have no clue what they're saying. Zero clue. Right. Jesus. And they have no idea. But they're singing so faithfully in English because why would you have time to translate into Tamil, into Telugu into, you know.

John Dehlin [02:07:49] Well, the fact the church does that. Money.

Guest [02:07:51] Yeah, more sarcasm.

John Dehlin [02:07:54] No, no, no, that was direct, really. The church has money.

Laura Schnell [02:07:57] The church has money.

John Dehlin [02:07:57] It could do it.

Laura Schnell [02:07:58] It could do it. But is it worth it to do it? For a nine branch, like a nine

John Dehlin [02:08:02] person branch, there's not a critical mass. Yeah, they need more critical mass.

Laura Schnell [02:08:05] Exactly. And so it's hard, hard to. If you could just do Spanish. Yeah, Spanish. And not to say there aren't dialects in these countries. Absolutely there are, but India is very, very diverse. Extremely diverse. You don't speak. Yeah. You don't speak a language from state to state. And so I think it's hard there. And also because the, of the religion, they're not predominantly Christian. The south is a little more Christian than the, than the North.

Guest [02:08:30] But.

Laura Schnell [02:08:31] But when you said the caste system, one of my dearest friends there, he told me, I said, why did you convert to Mormonism from Hinduism? And he, he said, because I'm low caste and because they taught me that Jesus touched the lepers. And it made me think that Jesus might touch me, touch my hand and not be grossed out because I'm low caste. And I was like, that's, you know, that's moving. That's. I can understand that. Maybe there's that sense of I matter. And so it made sense to me why he would convert.

John Dehlin [02:08:57] Which then again begs the question, why doesn't Christianity spread like wildfire if that message, at least with the lower caste. But. But it doesn't.

Laura Schnell [02:09:04] So. No. Yeah. Interesting. Maybe if you have your Indian guest, maybe he might. He or she.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] Yeah, it's a woman.

Laura Schnell [02:09:10] Oh, she. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:09:11] I can't say I'm sad, but I'm curious.

Laura Schnell [02:09:13] Yeah.

Guest [02:09:13] You know, can I ask one more question, please? Is there the same sentiment that you described about skin color and interracial marriage and the way you just described maybe converting to Mormonism in the caste system makes people feel like, like they are moving up. That the same way that you were describing earlier about having like interracial children and that people are trying to like, you know, forward the race, pay forward. It's a very, I mean, it's all just very like white supremacy. Right. Of just like this, like breeding out the, the darker skin for the lighter skin continually as much. Is there an attitude in India against their own skin color? And wanting to convert hurt maybe a. That they think it'll like lighten their skin. Maybe. I know you can't like, speak for an entire like, you know, group of latter days, but. Right. Like. But do they. Do they have that same type of doctrine or in their minds about their skin lightening and then maybe marrying a white, like, man or woman will improve them? Because I just. I have a friend who did the same program and married an Indian man. And. And I think that's kind of the. The dynamic she described. And I was just curious. She's. She's Mormon as well, so.

Laura Schnell [02:10:32] Awesome. She did field studies, too.

Guest [02:10:35] Yes. I don't know which one it was exactly, but, yeah, the. A man proposed to her as she was, like, leaving. That she didn't know, because I think he was kind of desperate to. I don't want to talk to their story too much, but wanting to marry a white woman seemed like it was a high priority to him.

Laura Schnell [02:10:51] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So within. And all my ref. My point of reference is a village, very traditional village. So with. With what I saw. Castes especially. Well, yes. With the white supremacy thing. Yes. Being. Being a colony of Britain, they would. I mean, they would see me, and if I went outside and got Tanner, they'd be like, no, no, sister, no, no. And, like, would, you know, put powder. And I'm like, oh, I good being tan, you know, but they did not. It was. No. Like, you don't know. You don't want to be dark. That was the overall message.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] That was a Mormon thing or just

Laura Schnell [02:11:26] a general colonial internalized. Gross leftovers. Yeah. And so I imagine. I didn't get. And there was a language barrier, you know, I didn't get. I wanted to. I was curious, how does this doctrine make you feel? You know, the white. Because they don't. They're not Lamanites.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] Right.

Laura Schnell [02:11:45] So it's like, where's. You know, do you feel like you'll be white and delightsome? I never really got that with marrying. The villagers are very traditional in their mind. They will never, ever leave the village. But I imagine city people. We did see some city members, they would say, you know, they would joke around, at least, you know, if we married a white girl, we could get out of here. You know, it's like, it's an opportunity also. And also I think it would be seen as prestigious. But again, I can't speak to that. And I don't know. Yeah, but that's just kind of the vibe that we. The five of us who were there, we talked later, talked about it, and we're like, did you get that vibe? And we're like, totally. Villagers. Not so much. They're like, nope, here, here only Interesting. But Mormon villagers, I wonder. I am Curious about how they internalized the white and delight something. Because they are a couple shades darker than me. They're pretty dark in South India and Tamil Nadu, but especially lower caste. So.

Guest [02:12:42] Yeah. When you mix religion with colonialism, post colonial countries, I'm sure there's just like a hotbed of just kind of a mess and a caste system all mixed in with one.

Laura Schnell [02:12:53] Yeah.

Guest [02:12:54] From like kind of a scripture that has white and delight, some doctrines. I'm just wondering. Yeah, that's a good answer. And we don't want to. Just curious for the vibe. Vibe of. Yeah. What you kind of experience there?

Laura Schnell [02:13:04] Yeah, good question though.

Becoming a CES Seminary Teacher

John Dehlin [02:13:06] All right, so anything else you want to say about your experience in India and then we'll jump to the next phase.

Laura Schnell [02:13:12] No, I love it. If you ever get a chance to go, you absolutely must. And if any of my five friends are listening, I guess four friends, I, they, they made it so much better. Those four people that I went with. And anyway, great, great kind of country.

John Dehlin [02:13:27] Okay, so where does your Mormon story go from there?

Laura Schnell [02:13:32] Well, then I come back and that's actually when I get engaged. As I come back and it's kind of like, okay, well, I'm back from India, what do I do now? I guess I could maybe work. I should work. What do I work in? My degree is worth literally nothing. But I loved it. I loved my degree. I loved what I did. But it. Unless, unless I have a master's, I can't do anything with it. So I thought, well, I like teaching, even though I don't know if I do, but I like the idea of it. So I come back and I, I come back to Utah and I get engaged. I get unengaged. Then I meet another guy, start dating him. And at the same time that I start dating him, I start, I start looking for work and I work at this language school. But I just, it was way too part time. And then I was at the BYU career fair and I see this guy just with a little. His, his booth was very bare. He just had a picture of Jesus and something that said seminary teaching question mark. And I approached him and I said, oh, it's this. And he explained it and he's like, you gotta take a class. You do this, this, that. So I took the class and I actually, I was okay when I took the class first. When I first started taking the class, I was still engaged. And my, my then fiance said, why do you want to teach? Why do you want to be a seminary teacher? Don't just women want to be like secretaries or something, if they want to work. And so I thought, maybe he's right. So I stopped. So I kind of forgot about it. Then after we broke up and all that, I actually emailed the guy I had met again, the guy I met at the work fair, and I said, could you. Do you have a class? And he said, yeah, join our class in that class. I take it. And I'm just like, oh, this is, you know, again, seminary feelings. And this. The. There are two people that teach it, and they're called the rotation. I mean, they are the pre. They're called the pre service people. Okay. And he, he said, the first thing he said was, if you're here is because you're meant to be here and trust that. And I was like, oh, I am. So anyway, we're taking the class and. And it's really intimidating.

Guest [02:15:45] Very.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] Is this at byu?

Laura Schnell [02:15:46] This is at byu.

Guest [02:15:47] Is.

Laura Schnell [02:15:48] It's free.

John Dehlin [02:15:48] But you graduated.

Laura Schnell [02:15:49] I had graduated, so, yeah. So it's free to take. Yeah. So I was like, yeah, I'll take it. And actually, all univers UVU has one U of U has, you know, the seminary. 451, 471 or something like that. So I'm taking it. And it's.

John Dehlin [02:16:06] It's like Mormon rotc, basically.

Laura Schnell [02:16:07] Yeah, yeah. And if you're.

John Dehlin [02:16:09] Every university's got one.

Laura Schnell [02:16:10] Yes, exactly. And if you're an RM, that is your jam. Like, I think most RMs come back and they're like, I'm. I'm meant to be a seminary teacher. You know, you just feel it in your bones.

John Dehlin [02:16:21] I wanted that.

Laura Schnell [02:16:22] Yeah. So I was like, well, I. I like teaching. I love the gospel. Let's see. Really intimidating, very heavy on the word of God, understanding this. And then you have these practicums. And I was getting really nervous, and, you know, the anxiety that was gone in India was. Was always back. And I thought, okay, well, I guess I'll just go for it. And we had the first practicum, and, you know, you teach for a couple of days, and then they. You actually teach one one time. This is. And this is again, 2013, so I'm sure it's different. But you teach one class to everyone in your class. So you. You teach your classmates and this and this teacher, and then they decide, okay, I think you got what it takes maybe to do a high school one. So you do a high school one for a day or two, and then again, it's that same thing. Yeah, you got what it takes. And then you, you Come back. Well, in that 471 class, I was feeling so much anxiety. I was like, I don't know. I don't know what it takes to teach. I'm not sure I want to. I want to be able to face students, but I don't know. And I. This guy walks in late, and he walks in with, like, a baseball cap, and he's very tall, and he sits in the back. And the teacher calls on him a couple times. He's like, hey, welcome, brother Oslin. Welcome to class. And I was like, oh. He. You know, I was like, he's kind of sitting in the back. He's kind of by me. So class ends, and I approach him, and I'm like, hi, I'm so sorry. I want to ask you a question. You've been teaching. And he had been doing his student teaching, I think. And I said, do you have advice for me? What can I do? I have my practicum. Because I had passed the initial. They're like, yeah, you could teach high school for, you know, the couple days, for a week maybe. So I was really nervous. And he said, look, the most important thing you can do is just love them. Just love the kids. And I just thought, wow. So that actually changed my trajectory entirely, because here I was getting, like, the word of God. Know this, know this, you know, say this, teach that. And then this guy that I just met said, hey, just love them. That's all that matters. And so I thought, okay, I can do that. I think I can definitely do that. Nice to meet you, by the way. I'm Laura. Hi, I'm Mark. And then I teach and I do well, and they. They like me, and they say, okay, I think we. I think we want you to do student teaching. This will be the. The student teaching part. You know, again, I was looking around. I was the only brown woman. But I'm used to that at this point, so I'm not bothered by it. I'm just like, okay. So I have to measure up. I have to really measure up. I don't want to be left behind, especially because I'm not an rm, so I'm less spiritually. So I'm teaching, and I do my student teaching, and we have all of these just observations, and it's hard to be observed while you're teaching. It's hard to not make eye contact with the random white old man in the back when you have teenagers in front of you and you're trying to, you know, teach the gospel and be funny, but also connect and Love. It's just a lot. But I got hired. So they. They were like, yeah. And I remember asking one of them, one of the leaders, I said, why would you hire a woman if you know that she could get married and have kids? At the time, there was a policy in seminary, this is 2013, that once a woman became pregnant, she was terminated. So maybe they would do some sort of severance package or something. I'm not sure. But I just knew. I knew that was the policy. Pregnancy equals no more teaching, no more working. So I thought, well, I'm 24. I could get married and pregnant. Why would I. Why would I get hired? So I asked him, and I said, why would you hire someone like me? Me? And he said, well, because even if you teach for a year, it's worth it for the kids to have a good teacher. So I was like, okay, okay. So I felt fine about that. So I got hired. And then it was actually I got hired with Mark.

John Dehlin [02:20:32] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:20:32] At the same time.

John Dehlin [02:20:33] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:20:33] And I kept seeing. I was like, oh. And so what happened was that he was. He was on his second. Usually people do a full year of student teaching. I only did half a year because there was a spot. If there's a spot and you're good, you're in. If you're good and there's no spot, you got to do another. Another time, you know, so that they just kind of look at that. And so we got hired together. So we started going to meetings together and like, hey, remember me? Yay.

John Dehlin [02:20:59] Oh, nice.

Laura Schnell [02:20:59] Yeah. So it was fun. Cuz that friendship, you know, continues.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] Important.

Laura Schnell [02:21:03] It becomes very important. Yeah. And he. He was someone I knew. He was a convert. And he was literally. I don't think in his Mormon stories, I don't think he gives himself enough credit to how if Mark Oslin walks into a room full of teenagers, it's magnet. I mean, he starts talking and they're just like glued and hanging on his every word, you know? And so he was a great person to kind of. To grow up with in seminary.

John Dehlin [02:21:29] Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [02:21:31] I'm honestly jealous. I wish that I went through the abuse of the CES program to get hired so I could hang out with Marco.

Laura Schnell [02:21:38] Right? I know, I know.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] And his wife.

Laura Schnell [02:21:41] Oh, man.

John Dehlin [02:21:42] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:21:43] He always says, okay. There was a. He. He mentioned this meeting once where somebody asked his wife to give the prayer. I was sitting next to her in that. I remembered listening, and I was like, I was there. I was there. But he. He said that they asked his. His wife to pray. I'm For Rachel. I was sitting next to Rachel and she was just so. She was like, I don't want to say the prayer. You know, And I just remember being like, weird how they make us just feel also scared, like forced. Just. You just force the spirituality. It's literally Saturday at 10am and it's like, shall we pray? And it just. It feels. But, you know, but we're all into it, you know, at least we are. The spouses aren't. Rachel was not. But Mark and I are like, yes. So it was good. It was just that the hiring process is brutal because going to the general authority interview feels so. So weird and feels. I mean, you're sitting in front of a general authority. I was. I had the pleasure of having Boyd K. Packer's son, Alan Packer, who. I tried to joke with him. It was not a good idea. I was like, you look like your dad. He was like, sit down, please. I was like, oh. So we're just sitting, and he's like,

Guest [02:22:56] did you know that I share this trauma bond with you with the. Have you listened to my Mormon stories that you don't. You don't joke around with the son of a general authority? Because I joked around with the son of Elder Oaks was my bishop, and my jokes don't land. Your jokes don't land. Your jokes don't land.

Laura Schnell [02:23:12] Seriously?

Guest [02:23:12] Yeah, yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:23:14] It's offensive.

Guest [02:23:15] Yeah, yeah. Like you're trying to lighten the mood. They do not lighten the mood very well.

Laura Schnell [02:23:18] Don't darken it. Darken the mood. Yeah, yeah.

Guest [02:23:20] That was my first shelf item.

Laura Schnell [02:23:22] That's amazing. But. And he said, go ahead and bear your testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, and so I was like, well, I. I know it's true, and I believe, you know, it's a testimony. And he said, what makes you hireable? Like, why would you want to be hired? And I said, I'm pretty sure I played the race card. I said, well, I am Colombian and I come from convert parents, and I have a very strong testimony. And I think it's important for kids to see that people from different countries also believe in Jesus Christ and have something. And he was just like, okay. And then it was. It. It was the end.

John Dehlin [02:24:08] Oh.

Laura Schnell [02:24:08] And he asked me if I served a mission, and I hadn't. And I don't know if there was worry. Who knows? But I left and I got hired now. Yeah. So I was endowed, though I didn't mention that in my growing, growing up story. But I was sealed to my mom and dad. And so I. It was. I was 18 when I wanted to be. And really, my mom and dad, I think, wanted me to be more. They were just like, I think it's time. We need to get sealed. Our family needs to be eternal anyway. And my father was heartbroken, but he didn't give me permission. And so the church has this rule policy that if. If an adult child wants to be sealed to adult parents, they need to be 21, and they don't have permission from the birth parent, from the biological. From the biological parent. 21, to be 21.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] And was your dad still a Mormon at this point?

Laura Schnell [02:25:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:02] Oh, no. So you're getting sealed to a different dad.

Guest [02:25:07] Okay, so explain that for non Mormon listeners. Like how that works. People are going to get confused. I know.

Laura Schnell [02:25:13] Okay, so like the ceiling, right? If. If your mom and dad are sealed in the temple, then you're born in the covenant. Well, my mom and dad were not. And so. So I was technically not sealed to them. Meaning in the next life, I wasn't going to be with. No, it wasn't an eternal family. Yeah, it doesn't make sense, and it does at the same time. So we weren't sealed in the temple. We can only hope to be sealed

John Dehlin [02:25:37] to your biological parents.

Laura Schnell [02:25:38] To my biological parents. But if they happen to be divorced, I can't get sealed to them. I have to wait until I'm dead for someone to seal me to both of them. So. So I'm 18 and my mom, who's now married to another man, Mormon man. Mormon man. Right. So my Mormon father and my Mormon mom and Mormon stepdad, the three parents, but I have my mom and my stepdad Mormon, say, get sealed to us. We need to be an eternal family. And I'm thinking, yes, but what about my father? And they're like, it's okay. My Mormon father, who knows about the ceiling, who's been a missionary for the church, who got baptized in the 70s, who, you know, who doesn't get to have an eternal family, whatever. And like, it's okay. It'll all get worked out in the end.

John Dehlin [02:26:21] So I'm like, well, getting spiritually cuckled, basically.

Laura Schnell [02:26:24] Pretty much.

Guest [02:26:25] He's John.

John Dehlin [02:26:27] Is that a bad word?

Laura Schnell [02:26:29] I mean, honestly, I'm just feeling for

John Dehlin [02:26:31] your dad, that's all.

Laura Schnell [02:26:32] No, seriously. And I never took the time. I never took the time to feel. I didn't. Because I was so, like, remember how they told me I wasn't a covenant kid? So I was like, this is my time to shine as A covenant kid. I'm. I'm gonna get sealed to my mom and stepdad. Yep. And I remember thinking about it. I'm like, who do I want to spend eternity with? My father or my stepdad?

Guest [02:26:54] Which makes you kind of choose, right?

Laura Schnell [02:26:56] Yeah, quite literally.

John Dehlin [02:26:58] Kids shouldn't have to make that choice.

Laura Schnell [02:27:00] No, no, absolutely not. And so then I would rationalize, right? I. I would say, well, he's. He's here with me. He's raising me. Okay? So. Okay, yeah. My stepdad and my mom. Okay, so I'm 18. I call my father, and my father's like, what? You want to get sealed to that man and your mom and not. What about me? And I was like, but it's okay. They tell me it'll be okay in the end. And so he says, no, absolutely not. I. I don't. I don't give you permission for that. So I'm heartbroken. Everyone's sad. And then we. We look into it. We write the temple, and they dig out some policy. I have no. No clue where it came from. I still remember the paper, and it said, if an adult child wants to get sealed to her parents and doesn't have permission from the biological parent, she must wait until she's 21, but must be endowed. And I was like, that's the best news I've ever heard. Heard. I get to be endowed without marriage and without a mission. I was so excited. So I turned 21, and I get endowed, and I wait, by the way, 18 to 21, meaning that my little sister can't get sealed yet. And so she's like, wait, so you three are going to be sealed? My father's over here in Colombia being heartbroken, and I'm. She's left top liver. Yeah. And we're like, yeah, yeah. And so. I mean, it was so many hurt feelings and so many unsaid things. I do remember my father's very quiet. My Colombian father, who I love so much. I talked to him on the phone when I was getting sealed when I was 21.

John Dehlin [02:28:35] How'd you break the news?

Laura Schnell [02:28:37] This is. It was so sad. He said, okay, you're 21. What are you gonna do? And I said, well, I just want to tell you I'm going through the temple. And he was like, I'm so happy, you know? And I said, because I'm getting sealed to my mom and to Mike. And he said, oh, is that what you've chosen, then? And he. And I said, yeah, but it doesn't mean I don't love you. And he said, oh, I know you love me. It just really, really hurts. And then he hung up. We didn't keep talking. It was kind of like, okay. And our relationship was not the same until, you know, much later. But anyway, so that's how I got to go to the temple, through that. But anyway, I almost. The stake president didn't want to give me a temple recommend, though. He was really hesitant because he's like, oh, are you gonna go to the temple? And I'm like, yeah, I promise. And he said, usually if men go with their wives, it's easier if wives go with men, it's easier if companions go. But you're a single 21 year old. I don't think you're gonna go that often. So I'm hesitant to give it to you. So I kind of had to promise him there in his office before promising in the temple that I would go to the temple. So I got my recommend. I begged for it. I got it. I got sealed to my parents anyway, so I was endowed kind of. Your parents?

John Dehlin [02:29:56] Yeah. I'm sorry.

Laura Schnell [02:29:58] No, seriously, without my sister, without. Yeah, she just sat outside the temple. She was. What?

John Dehlin [02:30:03] I just have to just make this sort of pause thing. That's just. The church creates the scarcity, that the selling point in Mormonism is the eternal family. But so often this teaching of the eternal family divides and even tears up families and causes so much pain by the. Created by the manufactured scarcity of some being sealed and some not being sealed and some making it and some not. It's this dream that becomes a horror for so many people. I'm just, I'm feeling for your biological dad. That's all.

Laura Schnell [02:30:34] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:30:35] I think, I think this is sensitive to me because I, I. My parents got divorced. They got temple married, then divorced, and then my mom fell in love with her third husband. So then she broke the ceiling and got sealed to my dad. And then I'm finding out as a BYU student that my parents ceiling was canceled. And then she gets married to her. Her third husband. So then I'm, as a BYU student, like, well, who am I sealed to? And it was like, I think I had to like cancel a class because of the depression I felt learning that my eternal family, like, even though my parents were together, is still in my mind. I'm so sealed and I don't know how to work in the afterlife, but at least I'm sealed because the church had created in me this need to be sealed to somebody. Like you talk to regular Christians. They're like, everyone goes to heaven. What's the deal? Everyone goes. God's not splitting up families and keeping families apart. But Mormonism as a selling point, as a feature, creates this scarcity that then causes. Causes so much heartache. And I'm sure non Mormon listeners are like, this is all. Sounds like hobbits and dwarves and Harry Potter. But it, I mean, and they're like, well, you know, but it, it is traumatic for those of us going through it. Yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:31:45] And you grow up with it. I mean, you grew up singing. Families can be together forever. And I remember thinking, now that I'm older, I remember thinking, my poor father, he must have thought, they don't want me. Right. It's not only, oh, we couldn't get sealed, and then we got divorced. You chose now to get sealed to someone else. I mean, how that must feel pretty terrible.

Guest [02:32:05] But I'm just working through and thinking about, I was only. I was Mormon just two years ago. What if. Okay, so let's say me and my husband got divorced. That's very sad. But we're still Mormon. What if he went off to. Moved to a different country, took our kids with him, married another Mormon woman. I'm still living my covenants. He's trying to live his covenants with a new woman. And my kids grow up to go be sealed to their stepmom. I would cry and never stop crying. Probably. It would be really hard if I, If I, if you. If I'm trying to, like, really empathize with how that would actually feel. If I'm trying to do my best to stay faithful in this gospel. And. Yeah, it's a, It's a strange allegiance that the church kind of muddies these waters sometimes.

Laura Schnell [02:32:46] Yeah.

Guest [02:32:47] It's problematic.

Laura Schnell [02:32:48] Yeah. And to feel, oh, sorry, but at

John Dehlin [02:32:50] least just allow spiritual polyamory, Let everyone be sealed to everyone. Versus, like, like have people have. Have a kid. Have to choose. A kid should never have to choose.

Laura Schnell [02:33:00] No, no. And yeah. And to be like, well, things will be worked out in heaven for your father. Then it's like, well, then, then why do I have to get. Then they should be worked out in heaven this way too. Right. So then why do I have to make a choice?

John Dehlin [02:33:13] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:33:14] You know, to, to give one excuse for one, but not for the other. I think that was hard. And for my sister, that was really hard for her. Her feeling like, great, now I also have to choose because my sister chose this. So what am I supposed to choose? Right.

Guest [02:33:28] And then it's complicated.

Laura Schnell [02:33:30] Yeah. Yeah. It got.

Guest [02:33:31] I thought that Was a really rough time. Wow.

Laura Schnell [02:33:33] Yeah, it was. And she. Yeah, she didn't really talk about it. It was kind of. That was expected. Right. You're going to join us, right? You're going to join me and my mom and stepdad. Right. And without taking her feelings into consideration. Well, who do you want to be with? With. You're just going to do what your sister does. Yep. You are. And so that was really complicated and it did strain the relationship with my father and us.

John Dehlin [02:33:57] I could have not.

Laura Schnell [02:33:59] So, yeah, that was messy. But I got endowed. So I was just happy as a clam there because I was so, you know, I needed to be so spiritual. So I. And I went to temple all the time. And then later on, my sister turned 20. She actually served her mission in Queens, New York, which is crazy.

Guest [02:34:20] She went pretty excited that then. Wow.

Laura Schnell [02:34:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:22] Because her patriarchal blessing said she would serve a mission.

Laura Schnell [02:34:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:25] Unlike yours.

Laura Schnell [02:34:26] Unlike mine. So she served her mission. She went right back to Queens. She went right to Richmond Hill Tres. And she. Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

John Dehlin [02:34:32] Is that revelation or did they just know that somehow?

Laura Schnell [02:34:34] I don't know. I have no clue. She was really sad, though. She's like, I don't think want to go back to New York. I want to go somewhere else. But she met her husband there, so. So maybe it was revelation. But anyway, so missionary as well, or was.

Guest [02:34:46] He was a missionary. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:34:48] Is she still in the church?

Laura Schnell [02:34:49] No.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] Oh, okay.

Laura Schnell [02:34:50] No. So, well, yeah, we'll get. But she. Then she literally. Right when she got home, we got sealed.

John Dehlin [02:34:59] The four of us did another ceiling.

Laura Schnell [02:35:01] We did. Yeah. And actually, no, it wasn't the four of us. It was her and them because I sat right there.

John Dehlin [02:35:06] So double the wound to your death. Double. Double the wound.

Laura Schnell [02:35:09] Right.

Guest [02:35:09] And that's interesting too, when you think about. Free agency is a beautiful concept, but not always played out so well in Mormonism. Because if you're. What kind of free agency did your sister have to really get sealed? And the choice was kind of already made because it's kind of pointless for all of you guys to get sealed if she's never going to join. She does have to kind of again, abandon her birth father to do that.

Laura Schnell [02:35:30] Right, Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's no choice there. She wasn't giving an option. Missions.

John Dehlin [02:35:35] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:35:36] Yeah. So anyway.

John Dehlin [02:35:38] Brutal.

Laura Schnell [02:35:39] Yeah, but brutal. Here I am seminary. So.

John Dehlin [02:35:42] So. So let's do this. What I want to do, I want to have this first segment kind of a part one.

Laura Schnell [02:35:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:35:48] That's going to be maybe growing up As a Colombian immigrant, a Mormon immigrant or something like that.

Laura Schnell [02:35:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:54] And then I want. Then I want what? So that. What I want to do is kind of say, this will be the end of part one.

Laura Schnell [02:35:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:35:59] And then if it's okay, we'll take a break and then we'll come back and we'll have the next part B. Being a female, you know, Mormon woman of color in the CES system as kind of part two. Does that. How does that sound?

Laura Schnell [02:36:13] That sounds great.

John Dehlin [02:36:13] Does that sound good?

Laura Schnell [02:36:14] Yeah, it's perfect.

John Dehlin [02:36:15] Any. Anything else you want to say to kind of close out your pre CES life as a Mormon, Colombian immigrant, woman of color?

Laura Schnell [02:36:25] No, I think. I think that will. Was that. Was it that. That temple ceiling thing was kind of the pinnacle of. Yeah, cuz everyone. Yeah, the temple is the big one. And for me it was the ceiling too. Abandoning one parent, joining the other two. That was how I got to go to the temple.

John Dehlin [02:36:42] Mormon Mount Everest. You summited?

Laura Schnell [02:36:45] I summited.

Guest [02:36:46] Do you want to say anything about going through the temple? You said that you liked it and

Laura Schnell [02:36:49] you went all the time, so you

John Dehlin [02:36:51] must have had a good experience, actual endowment experience.

Laura Schnell [02:36:53] I did, yeah, I did. I honestly, my mom did such a good job because she. She went. Being not raised in Mormonism, I think it was easier for her to be like, oh, yeah, the temple. I'm reverent. And yeah, I don't understand a word they said. But yeah. So I think. And later on, I mean, when I went, she had already been endowed for so many years. So when I was asking her what I could do to get ready, she's like, just, no, nothing. Just go read. Maybe read these scriptures, but go and just feel the spirit. So I did. And that's what I did. I. I did feel a little weird with certain parts of the endowment ceremony.

Guest [02:37:29] I'm sharing what parts? Or.

Laura Schnell [02:37:31] No, I don't. During the. The. What is it when. When you lift your hands in the air three times.

John Dehlin [02:37:39] Yeah, the prayers.

Laura Schnell [02:37:40] Oh God, hear the words in my mouth. I remember distinctly being like, something inside was like.

John Dehlin [02:37:46] But because it felt. What?

Laura Schnell [02:37:48] Because it felt weird. It felt weird to chant at the same time three times.

John Dehlin [02:37:52] Raising your arms, raising your arms.

Laura Schnell [02:37:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just nothing I'd ever done outside of the temple. Everything was weird. But I remember my mom telling me, she was like, it will feel weird, but don't worry, it's all part of the sacred ceremony. So I never questioned it. But hearing myself out loud three times with my hands in the air, that was the first time That I was like. But again, you took it very deep, so I didn't think anything I of it. But, yeah, that's. That's about it. I liked it. I did not like the endowment, though, as much if you. If you have preferences. Initiatory girl. Initiatory. Initiatory.

John Dehlin [02:38:32] You preferred.

Laura Schnell [02:38:32] I preferred it, yeah. And you could go. I don't know if anyone knew this. My mom told me this when she works at the temple, so I always did it, and no one knew. But you go to the initiatories, and then you put on your temple dress and you go to the celestial room. You don't have to go through an endowment to get to the celestial room. So that was kind of my goal to all the time.

Guest [02:38:49] I did that with ceilings, too. Kind of like a quick. Quick and dirty.

John Dehlin [02:38:52] Now into the slusher room.

Guest [02:38:55] Yeah, you just, like. You want to, like, shortcut to the celestial room. There's a lot of, you know, it feels good to be in a quiet, meditative, meditative place in the movie. And a lot of the chanting can drag on.

Laura Schnell [02:39:07] Exactly. And you're hungry. Yeah. So you just. You do. Yeah. But you're not allowed to. I. I pulled out my patriarchal blessing, and I was told to put it away, so I was like, I want to be.

Guest [02:39:19] I was really shocked. I wasn't allowed to write in my journal. Sitting in the. The chapel area when you're looking at the baptismal font. I had, like, my scriptures and my journal out, and they told me to put them away. And you're not allowed to, like, have any outside information, even your patriarchal blessing. I was really surprised by that.

Laura Schnell [02:39:36] I was like, but I want inspiration in the. In the temple.

Guest [02:39:40] God memory. Memorize it.

Laura Schnell [02:39:41] Yep. Right. But yeah, that. I mean, that's all with the temple. I loved it. It meant a lot to me coming from a family who couldn't have it in their lives. So I really was committed to it.

Guest [02:39:54] That's really. I mean, there's a lot of beauty in that. So. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Laura Schnell [02:39:57] Yeah, thank you.

Guest [02:39:58] I like hearing, you know, good kind of temple experiences and so.

Laura Schnell [02:40:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:02] All right, so you. You summited as a Mormon. You found your marriage hand.

Laura Schnell [02:40:08] I did.

John Dehlin [02:40:09] And you found your. Your. Your life calling, being in ces.

Laura Schnell [02:40:13] Yep. Seminary. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:15] All right. All right. So is that. Is that it for the part one?

Laura Schnell [02:40:19] That's it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:20] All right, so stay tuned, everyone, because you ain't seen nothing yet. This is just the beginning. Part two is going to be what it was like for Laura Schnell to be a woman of color, immigrant, natural returned missionary, Mormon, joining CES as a married woman and navigating all of that with Mark Osland. That's going to be part two. So just, just tune right back in for part two of this amazing interview with Laura Schnell. Thanks, Kara.

Guest [02:40:51] Thanks, John. Thanks, Laura. See you guys in a minute.

John Dehlin [02:40:54] All right. All right, Laura.

Laura Schnell [02:40:56] All right.

Working as a Female Teacher in Utah County CES

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1474

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome Back to part two of our amazing interview with Laura Schnell. I'm Dr. John Dehlin. We are here on Mormon Stories podcast and we are joined, of course, by the amazing Kara Burrell.

Guest 2 [00:00:13] Hey, Kara, Sorry, I was grabbing some coffee to get ready for this part two. Don't worry, I'm already energized from part one. I don't need it. I'm just thirsty.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] No, no, it's great to have you, Kara. For those of you who are joining us without listening to part one, we just spent an amazing 2 1/2 ish hours with Laura Sch, or as I like to call her, Laura Marcella Garcia Gomez Bunyan de Chanel. And we had an amazing interview learning about what it's like to be or what it was like for Laura to to be born in Colombia, to be raised a Mormon in Colombia, to be baptized in Colombia, but then to have her parents divorced, to immigrate to the United States with her mom and sister. Her dad ended up staying behind, parents got divorced, and then to be raised in Queens, New York in a Hispanic branch or Spanish branch in the LDS Church. And that's a really cool and important story just about immigration. And it's basically an inspiring story of courage and of strength and of not only her mom's hard work and dedication, but her and her sister's resilience, but also, to be candid, a Mormon branch that really wrapped their arms around this immigrant family and loved and supported them up until that white returned missionary from Arizona sweeps Laura's mom off her feet. And they move to Arizona where Laura and her sister kind of do high school in Utah, south as they call it, or Gilbert, Arizona, Chandler, Arizona, those sorts of areas where Laura gets fully indoctrinated into white and delights of Mormon spirituality, where if she has to have the dark skin of a Lamanite, she can still have the white spirit of a white and delightsome, true believing Arizona Mormon in her inner being. And that's what she seeks to develop as a super righteous Mormon girl in Arizona. She goes on to BYU and has a great experience there. And then after BYU graduates and spends some time in India, comes home and marries, finds her Mormon man, gets married in the temple. And there's a super epic and kind of sad story about how she chooses to be sealed to her mom and stepdad in the temple, leaving her faithful biological Mormon father on the outs. And I don't mean to be glib about that, but like we like to say, we learn from Maya Angelou when you know better, you do better. But go back and just. Long story short, go check out park one, Part one. It's important on so many levels. And, Carrie, anything you want to add to that?

Guest 2 [00:02:42] I just posted on Instagram how maybe not since Gerardo's episode have I laughed as hard as we just laughed the

John Dehlin [00:02:49] last couple hours in the break or.

Guest 2 [00:02:51] No, in the actual. In the actual interview stuff. Nothing like talking about mutual friends and just. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, she's got some good stories. Just like her stories are really interesting, too. So that was all around just a fascinating chat. So totally ready for part two. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Yeah. And, Laura, where we kind of left off, you had come back from. From India, looking into jobs. And you. You talk in part one at the end about how you saw the job table for seminary and institute. LDS Church, seminary, institute. You do some student teaching, learning with the great Mark Oslid. Shout out to Mark. You become friends with Mark, and you have an interview with Boyd K. Packer's son, who is an area authority. Because there's no nepotism in the Mormon Church. Wait, I'm trying not to be sarcastic. Sorry, Matt Holland, I didn't mean to insinuate that you're an area or general authority because your dad's an apostle. That's not what I was trying to do at all. Or.

Guest 2 [00:03:47] This is a religion of marriage.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Our apostles do not have anything to do with their sons becoming area or general authorities. I did not mean to infer.

Guest 2 [00:03:57] That's the Barbra Streisand effect. Because you spent five minutes talking about.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] I'm trying to be a little bit funny and silly. Okay, so you. You actually interviewed Boy K. Becker's son. He was super jovial and warm. Just kidding. And you got the job. So that's where we left off.

Laura Schnell [00:04:16] So where.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] And you can back us up. Whatever you want to do. Where do you want to begin? Because this episode is what it's like to be a woman, a married woman of color, immigrant, who joins the probably widest, one of the widest and most patriarchal organizations in the United States, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Church education system, or seminary and institute program. I literally can't think of a wider organization.

Laura Schnell [00:04:42] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] And a more male organization. So I just. We're just going to be quiet, and you get the next three hours to tell us.

Laura Schnell [00:04:49] Oh, man.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Go.

Laura Schnell [00:04:51] Yeah, I. Honest. Okay, so if we. If we're gonna back us up. I'm still not married when I get hired.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Oh, okay, okay. You're single.

Laura Schnell [00:04:59] Single still. Which is interesting there.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] That I wanna hear all about that. Well, why would that be interesting?

Laura Schnell [00:05:06] You're even more of a. Not to say singleton, but a singleton. Cause you know, the men cannot teach full time unless they're married. The women can't.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] They're not even allowed to.

Laura Schnell [00:05:19] They're not allowed to. They can do student teaching all day. They cannot be hired officially full time if they are not married. They can be literally the day. It just. It has to be that they're married.

Guest 2 [00:05:30] So will you explain what. What's the reasoning for that?

Laura Schnell [00:05:33] I wish I knew.

Guest 2 [00:05:34] I won't court students or. Because no one has ever had an affair with a student before.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:05:40] No marriage. Just make sure nobody does that.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] No, there's something similar where you can't be a Mormon bishop. Historically, you haven't been able to be a Mormon bishop if you're single or if you've even been divorced. But I'm sure it's exactly that. That somehow you're less likely to be a sexual predator on the teenagers if you. If you're married.

Laura Schnell [00:05:59] Right, right, right. Yeah. And we know from history that's not thing.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] But wait, you can, you can be a sexual predator, be married? Is that what in Mormonism, is that what you're saying?

Laura Schnell [00:06:09] In a seminary building even. Okay, so I mean it. And it's. Honestly, I always. The, the men that were bitter about it, I think they were like, it's not fair. And I'm like, yeah, I. I can understand why you would.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Because you could.

Laura Schnell [00:06:22] Cuz I could be as a single woman. Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:06:24] While the policy is still in place that if you get pregnant, you're completely sacked.

Laura Schnell [00:06:29] Right at this moment. At that moment.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] Yes.

Laura Schnell [00:06:30] At this moment. Yeah. So I mean, it was like, hey, I have my crap, you have yours. It's. It's a mess. Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Patriarchy alert men. Patriarchy hurts men too.

Laura Schnell [00:06:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] Not that you should only have that be your motivation for caring, but it does hurt. Yeah, it does hurt me.

Laura Schnell [00:06:44] Yeah. And so I'm. I'm single, so I still. I mean, I don't. And what's interesting about being a single full time seminary teacher is you have no. Okay, here's an example. So you're a full time male seminary teacher. You've been married for a couple years, you have six kids, and suddenly your wife is like, hey, I feel really sick because she's pregnant with number seven and so. And so is sick and I have to pick him up and I can't. You need to come. So then the seminary, full time male who's married says to the principal, hey, for the last hour, can someone spot me? Or I need to find a sub or my wife's not feeling good, I need to go home. What's my thing to go home? I mean, mental health. No. My period? No. I have to be at work all the time, so. And I'm not complaining about that. I wanted to be at work all the time. I'm just saying being single kind of puts you in a different little box for when you get certain things and when you don't get certain things.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] So is it less privileged? Basically Mix.

Laura Schnell [00:07:51] I think it's mixed. Yeah, I think it's mixed. Sometimes, you know, you get. They used to do them. I don't think they do them anymore. But these overnighters where they would rent out these cabins and what's a pretty spot here in Utah? Just like a pretty, like, mountaineer.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Something Grove.

Laura Schnell [00:08:07] Yeah. Something Aspen Grove or something Pleasant Grove.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Go out by Sundance. Isn't that.

Laura Schnell [00:08:14] Yeah, yeah. And they were just done overnight and spouses were paid for and invited. And so a single person would just have to, like, be alone, which I guess that wouldn't be bad. I would love it to be by myself. They stopped doing those, by the way, when I was hired. But anyway, so it's a little different. It feels like, oh, man, I can't, you know, where's my permission if I'm not feeling well? It's like, well, did you get a sub or sick day? You know, uh, and it's. It just feels off. But it's so patriarchal in its nature. I remember sitting in a. In a. In a meeting one time, and the man said, okay, well, brethren. And I was like. I remember being like, that's okay. He didn't see me. And he's like, hold your wife's hands right now. And I was just like. It's just. It's just, you know, when you. When you're used to saying things like, hey, guys, and it's two women and you kind of catch yourself and you're like, sorry. I mean, hey, girls. It's like that. But it doesn't catch on enough. Like, it is so infused with patriarchy that even the language. Right. Or my favorite. We'd like to thank the. Our secretaries, they are called support specialists for the snacks. And everyone's like, thank you. And I'm just sitting there like, no, what? And they're all so happy because they went to Costco earlier and they prepared beautiful, delicious snacks and so I'm just like, wow, it's so patriarchal. But being a woman of color especially, you kind of feel like the baby elephant in the zoo. You know, it's like, you know, come look. And so, especially in the classroom, which part of me was like, you know, I'm glad these kids get to see a teacher of color for the first time in their lives, and a woman teacher at that. I think a lot of them are like, we've never had a woman seminary teacher. We always thought they had to be, you know, 55 and crusty with a suit, not young and whatever. And so that's interesting. That's all. And you kind kind of ride that high for a little bit. You're like, I'm different. I'm special. I'm cool. I stand out. And then you realize there's lots of things that are difficult. Like, I don't really fit into this conversation very well. I don't. You know, for example, I think some jokes. And I look back and, you know, like May Angela says, when you know better, you do better. But at the time you want to fit in. I wanted to fit in. I got hired at American Fork, which is a very.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] That was your first. That was your first.

Laura Schnell [00:10:38] First high school.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:10:39] Yeah. Officially hired.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] What do you think about getting hired in Utah County?

Laura Schnell [00:10:44] I was excited.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] What's the. What's the perception of Utah county as a place to work? I think as a CS instructor.

Laura Schnell [00:10:53] Oh, just. Field is white and ready to harvest. Very, very, like, oh, yeah. Perfect. And really, the word perfect, I think. And so I was excited. American Fork kind of scared me. I've never been there. I only heard of it, and I've only heard people pronounce it farc. So I was kind of like, what is this place? But I went and I loved it. It was. It was really, really great. But it's difficult to fit. And of course, I. Very crass would always. And. And in my righteousness, I would never let myself swear, but this is the one thing I would let myself say. And I would always text it to my sister. She's like, how's work? And I'm like, sausage fest is good. Because it was always, always just so many men, so many white men, and you almost feel like you can't even. In a conversation, I'd have to think about what I would say next. It just didn't feel relaxed ever. And, you know, whose fault is that? I mean, I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying it's how I felt.

Gender Imbalance and Sexism in CES

John Dehlin [00:11:48] What Was the percentage. What was the ratio of a hundred. Of a hundred seminary teachers in Utah County? What percentage were. Were women, do you think?

Laura Schnell [00:12:00] And I'm so bad at math. Remember my math trauma guessing? Okay, well, I only know numbers. So in, in the one area that I was in, there were only three of us.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] Three women.

Laura Schnell [00:12:12] Three women. Out of, out of one, two, three. Three high schools, which would be. So maybe 30. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] So maybe 10% women.

Laura Schnell [00:12:22] It's probably a good number. Yeah. I'm so bad at math. But it was always a handful of us. So in my area, I only knew my co who was with me in the school, which was crazy American fortune having two women. Yeah, it was extra spiritual, they would say. And then another high school had another girl that we got hired at the same time. So three. And then as time moved on, I saw more later on, way later on, there was quite like a good handful still always men, but each school had at least one or two towards the end. Nice, right? And so seven men or six. Five men and one woman or four men and two women. Like that. So I was outnumbered. Yes, always. Always. And so we would sit at the table and at the lunch table and of course everyone is physically bigger and taller and wider and a man. And so I always, you know, it's like, okay, it's okay. But I'm here and I'm spiritual and I'm a teacher. And I was very young. I, I'm. I was the youngest. And so again, it was that feeling of they should maybe take me under their wing. And some of them would. And some of them just were indifferent. But sometimes, and I feel bad, I feel bad for myself. I'm not pitying myself. I just feel bad for old me who didn't say anything. But they would make jokes. Like they would. We would eat lunch and one of them would be like, okay, well you're going to clean up, right? Because you're like the Mexican lady maid. No, And I would just be like. And like, I would, I literally would just wipe the table. And like, I just never, I just didn't, you know, I never had the, the guts.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] They would. Someone said that.

Laura Schnell [00:14:03] Yeah, because it was funny. And everyone laughed and. Or like, well, you're not allowed to teach because you're illegal, right? Hahaha. And I'm like, haha. No. And so just things like that where you're like, man, okay. And one time, and this co worker actually apologized, which I thought was interesting that he was apologizing. I was surprised because I didn't Realize it was offensive, but I did and didn't. But they were talking about moving somewhere, and he said, well, don't. Yeah, no, don't move there. The. The population there is no that. It's. It's a little more run down, you know, because it has a lot of Latinos. And I just. I heard it. But at that time, there were so many microaggressions in my life in Mormonism and outside that you just hear and you're like, yeah. And so he came to my office and he said, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize what I was saying when you were sitting in front of me. And I said, oh, that. That's okay. Don't worry about it. So little things like that about being a brown woman, you know, and you'd

John Dehlin [00:15:00] been raised in probably a less affluent Queens.

Laura Schnell [00:15:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:04] And then you probably had a lot of.

Laura Schnell [00:15:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] Positive feelings for those experiences.

Laura Schnell [00:15:09] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] True or not true?

Laura Schnell [00:15:11] Yes, true. I mean, mix. Obviously there was always that hope, like, I can't wait to not sleep in a bed with my sister and my mom and not have to. You know, I. The first time I ever shopped for myself, you know, when you take your daughter shopping, the first time I was 14, 13, 14. I didn't. We never. It was always hand me downs. It was always the ward people that gave us things. I never had my own things, or I should say seldom in Colombia, maybe from grandparents, but not in New York that was too lavish and so insensitive, things like that. Um, and anyway. But I. I loved the classroom. I loved the students, and the students really liked me. The. For the most part, I really had positive experiences with the students. But because I was so young and I wanted to connect and I loved them and I was easily. You know, I just. There wasn't a wall that much. And we were six years apart. I started becoming a little popular. And you know, teenagers, they don't hide things. If they want this teacher, they'll say, I want to go in Sister Garcia's class.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] Explain how registration works so people can get.

Laura Schnell [00:16:20] Okay, registration.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] So explain what release time means for those who didn't hear marks. And then explain how a student signs up and then how that affects popularity, which then affects your job evaluations, apparently.

Laura Schnell [00:16:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] In negative ways.

Laura Schnell [00:16:37] Because.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Don't be too good. Okay. Sorry.

Laura Schnell [00:16:39] Yeah, right. Well, okay. So release time, usually the church in seminary. Seminary is the church's baby, I call it, is where you go and you learn. But release time happens during the hours of the day of school, usually what states? In Utah. And I might be wrong. You can. I'm sure the comments will be in here, too. In Utah, Arizona, I believe, parts of Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] And there's a building. Explain. Explain it all.

Laura Schnell [00:17:07] Okay. Yeah. And I'm sure there are other little parts that have pockets. But even, like my husband actually had release time, but the teacher was. It was a calling. So it was technically not release time. When it's full, when it's legitimate release time, it's in the. Just like a period of school. I have it second hour, third hour, fourth period, fifth period. And there's a little separate building that's been dedicated.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] So there's a public high school.

Laura Schnell [00:17:29] There's a public high school across the way or behind or up the hill. There's a little building that looks like a tiny mini church. And it says seminary. You know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Seminary. And you go in and it look. Carpeted wall, the same thing, except there's really fun young or sometimes old teachers inside, and you go into classrooms, and they make it really fun for the kids. And it's gospel. That's your curriculum.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] And it's a tiny bit. Like, I'm a little frustrated because I love education. And I'm thinking, like, okay, you could take an extra physics class or an extra geography class or, you know, auto mechanics class. And then all these kids are taking seminary institute four years in a row as part of their high school experience. And somehow it's not. I'm ranting. It's not a violation of church and state.

Laura Schnell [00:18:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] To have a religious building, a, literally adjacent to the high school and then have those courses integrated into the electives options for public high schools. Okay, rant over.

Laura Schnell [00:18:29] I'm sorry.

Guest 2 [00:18:29] I'm gonna stand up for seminary, though, because it is so good when you're a teenager and you get to go,

John Dehlin [00:18:34] she did this, right?

Guest 2 [00:18:35] What?

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Release time, Seminary.

Guest 2 [00:18:37] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:18:37] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:18:37] I went to Tempu.

Laura Schnell [00:18:38] I want to know who your teachers were.

Guest 2 [00:18:40] One of them was named Brother Fletcher. I have a story about him pushing a crown of thorns into my head until he made me cry. And his son was the BYU groper. But that's. That's the most interesting story I have to tell there. He was there probably when you were at byu. But anyway, remember the BYU groper? Great tip.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] He's in Provo. Right. For those who don't know Provo, Utah.

Guest 2 [00:18:59] Utah, yes.

Laura Schnell [00:19:00] That's actually where I first did student teaching was at Tokyo. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] Great.

Guest 2 [00:19:04] That makes me happy in my heart. No, but I Will stand up for seminary just because it feels really good when you are a teenager that's just feeling beaten down by your classwork and the unhallowed halls of your high school to go to a dedicated building that feels like the second you walk in, it has the spirit there. And you're just told that God loves you for an hour a day. And the water fountains always have the best water and you just feel cold. Yeah. You just feel like you're like literally going to a better, higher elevation, no pun intended, because Tempus is on the top of the mountain. You hike up to it to go. But anyway, no, it just feels like you're going into an elevated space spiritually away from the high school.

Laura Schnell [00:19:45] So.

Guest 2 [00:19:45] I love seminary. I loved it with all my heart. And I totally get the opinion that John's going for. You could be doing a lot of other things, but when you're a Mormon teenager. Seminary was a really special time that recalibrated me for the rest of the day.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] And to be clear, I grew up in Texas, so we didn't have release time. And I was thrilled to wake up at 5 or 5:30 and drive 30 minutes to the chapel to sit in seminary from 6 to 7 with the volunteer teacher. And I loved it. So I. I get it. I'm just.

Guest 2 [00:20:12] I thought you're being sarcastic. Are you serious?

John Dehlin [00:20:14] I'm a. I loved seminary. Oh, good. I was seminary president and I loved it.

Guest 2 [00:20:18] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] But I'm just a little salty now, so forgive me. Thank you, Kara, for representing are believing listeners and my prior self. Basically.

Laura Schnell [00:20:26] Yeah. See, it's fun. And that you totally, as a teacher, you create the best. You come in all friendly. Hey, come on in. You make sure everyone feels special. There's treats sometimes. Sometimes the secretaries are grumpy, but for the most part, I mean, it's just.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] How do you decorate the room?

Laura Schnell [00:20:44] Oh, great. Well, every summer you get a little. You have a budget. Yes. And you can order. It has to be okay. I remember you had to order from a very specific place, though it was online. And you get like your quota. You have to get. Okay. This many Christ pictures, this many temple ones. And if you don't want those, you can do these. You know, you can make it however you want it to. They do encourage to have a flag up and to have a picture of the American flag. An American flag. And the pictures of the apostles up.

John Dehlin [00:21:19] The first presidency of the first presidency

Laura Schnell [00:21:21] and the quorum of the 12. Yeah. And they're little frames. Yeah. So. And that usually Comes that's usually just handed down. It's not like you buy them. That's usually in a closet full of other stuff. But you can decorate it how you want. I always try to have really not the white Jesus with like the curls with the curling iron. The really pretty blonde. I tried to steer clear just cause I didn't. You know, it didn't really mean much to me. And so. But you treat it like your school. And you have a. You have grades. And so the kids enroll in their wards, you can enroll online. And your parents have to sign a form, a consent release form because the school needs to know where you are for. What's the word I'm looking for? Legality's sake. So if you're in the seminary building, then you're released to the seminary for an hour and then you go back to school. But you need a form. No student can just chill there or shouldn't. So you get a form and you sign up and then you're put in classes and you are. I don't know how they do it. The secretaries are in charge of it. They just make sure they split friends. They make sure that it's not a mess and they just put you and for release time. In the schools I taught, I can't speak for the others. The student cannot have the same teacher twice or not twice, like in their lifetime of school, but in the semester. So the semester and then you go to a new teacher. Some schools do the year, some teachers prefer either or. But anyway, that became a problem for me and I'm sure for people like Mark, where the kids are like no, semester two, we want you again. And the.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] They can only have you once per year, right?

Laura Schnell [00:22:56] Well, yeah. Like if they make the rounds. They won't. They will only have each teacher once in four years. Uhhuh. Is if there's enough teachers. Yeah. You might maybe your senior year have it again if you had your freshman year. But for the most part.

John Dehlin [00:23:10] Spread it out.

Laura Schnell [00:23:11] Yeah, spread it out. Yeah. And you can make claims your parent. If your parents call in and beg. Maybe so.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] And what would be the. The logic for a parent begging?

Laura Schnell [00:23:20] She won't come to seminary if she's not in her class. She really struggled and she needs to be in her class. She really did well last semester.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] She needs to be in there connection with this.

Laura Schnell [00:23:28] Yeah, yeah. She really helped her go back to church. Whatever. So usually the pr. It's up to the principal. But anyway, so my principal started getting worried and he pulled me aside and

John Dehlin [00:23:39] he said when you say principal, not

Laura Schnell [00:23:41] of the high school, out of the high school. A seminary principal.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] So the leadership structure is.

Laura Schnell [00:23:45] Yes, the leadership structure is male as well.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] They're called a principal.

Laura Schnell [00:23:50] And they're called a principal. Yeah, the seminary principal. Although in 2016, maybe 2015, there was a first female principal. And I remember everyone was like, can she? And it's like, yes, because it is not a priesthood calling. It's just, you know, your job. So anyway, and principals do less teaching, more administration.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] And so a principal's over about how many teachers? Approximately average?

Laura Schnell [00:24:16] I want to say seven. Okay, seven or eight maybe. Yeah, bigger class, bigger schools.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] Basically zone leader in the mission.

Laura Schnell [00:24:22] Pretty much. Pretty much. And you're in charge of making sure your teacher is, you know, just like a principal, an administrator. So my principal pulled me aside and he said, hey, just remember this is the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the gospel of Laura Garcia.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] What went into that? What was behind that?

Laura Schnell [00:24:37] Well, that the more and more kids, especially girls, like, I want to be in her class again. I want to be in her class. I feel comfortable. It's not a man, a big, tall, you know, scary man. And I'm a 15 year old girl, so I don't know. For some reason, some girls felt really comfortable with me. Not all. I'm not saying all students wanted me again, but the few did. That did. And so he was really wary and he was like, just don't, don't let this get to your head. Like you're becoming popular and that's just not good. And so I remember thinking like, okay, I gotta reign it back. Maybe be less loving. Okay, maybe, maybe harder on grades. Maybe like, I just, I remember thinking, what could I do?

Guest 2 [00:25:16] I just thought of a great TikTok I gotta make of all the brethren taking Jesus Christ. Be like, people are loving you too much. You gotta be less loving. Dial it down. Jesus Christ.

Laura Schnell [00:25:28] Maybe harsher grades.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] Yeah, be mean, be harsh.

Laura Schnell [00:25:32] Yeah. And, and sometimes, you know, there, there is value in that. Sometimes the kids, you know, after school, they want to talk to you and it's, you know, it's 4 o' clock. And I liked it because I was single. It's not like I had to. But you know, sometimes there is a boundary where you're like, hey, you know, I'm a human, I need to go home. So I understood maybe sometimes where to draw the boundary where student, teacher, relationship. But he made it seem like I was purposely gathering all my cool disciples and I wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] What is your power? Like, power and priesthoods. Yeah, Like Satan in the temple.

Laura Schnell [00:26:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] Today is the day of. Today's the day of my seminary power.

Guest 2 [00:26:10] Exactly.

Laura Schnell [00:26:11] And I have like a black ring. Yeah, I just, I, you know, and so it felt a little deflating because that was my first year and I was doing well, but I had difficult classes, of course. But Anyway, then in 2014, the rule changes and you don't have to be. You can, you can be pregnant, you can have kids. And so I remember feeling the weight off. I was like, good. So now wait, what was the rule before the policy was if a woman was married in a seminary, in a full time seminary teacher, and if she became pregnant, she would be terminated. And now I don't know if it was terminated immediately. I don't think so. Perhaps at the end of the pregnancy. Maybe if she would quit that she would get it. I'm not sure. That was just the rule through 2014. Through 2014. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:26:56] And so when that was lifted, I remember.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] Oh, what. What else happened in 2014? I'm just curious, like, what else? Well, let's see. 2013. 2014.

Laura Schnell [00:27:06] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Do you want to say it or do you want me to?

Laura Schnell [00:27:09] You can.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] Okay. Yeah. 2013, he just. Kate Kelly. 2013, Kate Kelly and I receive our letters that we're going to get excommunicated because 2012 to 2013 not only was there where Pay Us to Church Day and feminist Mormon Housewives blog was raging, but then Kate Kelly did the Ordained Women and the whole Ordained women board sort of led the ordained movement where they're like marching on the church. Fast forward, two years later, oh, there's a magical announcement at the seminary institute, you know, buildings regarding women. Right.

Laura Schnell [00:27:45] Yeah. Hey, guess what?

John Dehlin [00:27:47] Guess how Revelation happens.

Laura Schnell [00:27:48] Guess how. Yeah. And I remember some people would, some students, some. Honestly, teenagers are amazing. Some of them in my classes were so ahead, you know, and forward thinking. And one of them was like, could this be because of all the protests and stuff? And I was like, no, it's because of Revelation, a seminary policy. So anyway, but 2015, I get married to my white RM.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Did you hear about the K. Kelly stuff?

Laura Schnell [00:28:18] I did. Oh, I did, by the way. Oh, yeah?

John Dehlin [00:28:19] What'd you think about that?

Laura Schnell [00:28:20] Well, the thing is, I heard about it, but I was too scared to look into it. It like intimidated me too much. I was afraid that I would read something that would maybe rile me up. So all I did was I just heard about it. And I had this co worker who was, he was my mentor. And I remember he was saying, oh, Kate Kelly, like, women just want the priesthood, blah, blah, blah. And I actually took it to the temple, and again, I still wouldn't. I remember browsing an article and I had to stop because I was getting way too anxious just thinking, like, she could be right. And what. What is this? You know, she's right, but I didn't let myself. So I went to the temple and, you know, I just asked for clarification. I said, what? What? She has a point, but I don't want to ask that, but she kind of does. And the. The answer I received really was, don't worry about it right now. And so I just kind of. I took it and I said, okay, that's fine, because you had to teach it in the classroom, because teacher. Excuse me, teacher, students would bring it up, so you had to have some sort of answer. So I would always share my temple thing with them, my little experience. Because some girls were like, how come we don't have the priesthood? And I didn't have a good answer. I didn't. As a rookie, little teacher, I was like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] God said, so.

Laura Schnell [00:29:35] Yep. Yeah. So anyway, that was. That was interesting. But this mentor that I'm talking about, he took me under his wing and he. He. I don't.

Guest 2 [00:29:48] He.

Laura Schnell [00:29:49] He was a bishop in a singles ward, and so not at the time, but previous. And I think he kind of took on this bishop role with me emotionally, where he would ask me about my life and. Which is fine. I mean, getting to know me. He's my mentor, and I really grew to love him, and he was such a good, kind person. But I think he. He overstepped a lot of boundaries. Like, for example, he. When I was single, he. He was like, so how's the dating life? And I said, oh, you know, it's a weird question. Yeah. I mean, if it's friends, like, maybe. But he wasn't. It instantly isn't equal when there's power.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] Right?

Laura Schnell [00:30:30] You're a mentor, you're an apprentice. And I was the apprentice. And so it didn't feel like Mark and I chatting. It felt a little different. Even though he said we were friends. And I did believe it. But he said, are you dating? And I said, no, I'm not. And he's like, okay, you might shave your arms. If you shave your arms, it might. Guys might ask you out. And I remember being like, oh, okay. And he's like, I give advice. I gave advice like this all the time. You know, sometimes girls need to get better. And look more attractive and it'll help. And I remember being like, okay. But then luckily, I met my husband, and he loved my hairy arms, and so I didn't have to do that. But little things like that where I just. As a young female woman of color, seminary teacher, I just felt like I didn't really have a place or really a voice, you know, where I feel like now myself. Now I would be like, what do you mean, shave my arms? What's that supposed to mean? That I'm supposed. You know. But back then, I was just like, oh, okay. And then when we were engaged and he took the liberty to give me sex advice, you know. Unprecedented. Yeah, I mean, he. I mean, amongst a host of little things here and there. I mean, I remember. The one thing I remember vividly is he said, you know, if your husband asks for sex, you need to give it to him, you know, as many times. And I remember being like, oh, well, how come if sometimes you're not in the mood or something? And he was like, it's okay. You can work it out. You can, you know, whatever. But just don't try not to say no. Type of an idea, which is incredibly inappropriate. That is not a work relationship, especially when there's power involved. It just looking back, I can see a lot of things. But he was someone I trusted. He was someone I really cared about, someone who really showed me the ropes of seminary, who would help me give me great advice, very knowledgeable about the gospel. And I regard him with. With good feelings. It's just, you know, I think he's also a victim of patriarchy, where he felt the need to do that. That was his role anyway. And he had me bear my testimony. Once in the middle of a meeting, he was like, hey, I'm giving a lesson about the Book of Mormon. Can you bear your testimony since you're a direct descendant of the righteous Lamanites? Just bury testimony to the Book of Mormon. And I know the spirit's going to come in the room. And so I remember being. It was very mechanical, and I just. Hi, I'd like to bear my testimony of the Book of Mormon. As a descendant of the Lamanites, I didn't really know, and I think he was waiting for this power and maybe he felt it. I just remember being just used again.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] She loved the Book of Mormon.

Laura Schnell [00:33:21] Yeah, I loved it. So I was happy. But I still felt even then, like, okay, okay, I'll just do this simply because I'm a Lamanite, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Tokenized, is that.

Laura Schnell [00:33:31] Yeah, Very tokenized. Yeah. But again, so much good makes into it. It just becomes a gray muddle of thing.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Because the good was what?

Laura Schnell [00:33:40] Because the good was. He was kind and they respected me. I, at least I think where I felt like, hey, you know, where I felt valued.

Guest 2 [00:33:49] You're.

Laura Schnell [00:33:50] You're such a. And some of them were so kind. You're such a good teacher. Do you need help? Do you need lesson ideas? You know, so many. One of them, the seminary, you only get so many vacation days and you can't take them during school. They have to be in the summer. You work through the summer, by the way. You work every day in the summer, nine to five every day, eight hours. And I did not do well with that. But I was going to go on my honeymoon and they were going to not let me. They were going to say, nope, because you're getting married in September. That's not summer, so you don't get a honeymoon. And one of my co workers fought for me for like two hours in the principal's office until the principal said, okay, fine, can take five days, I guess, for her eternal companion. So I mean, things like that, that I'm like, this was good. These are good. And I hold them so dear in my heart. But that doesn't take away the. That I was also tokenized and disrespected and demeaned. And so I'd like to include all of it. Not just the bad or not just the good. Anyway, so I got married in 2015. Things got really rocky. I remember not in my marriage, in work, because this announcement like, hey, did you hear about this change? What's gonna happen is children of queer couples cannot get baptized.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] And I remember November 15th policy.

Laura Schnell [00:35:16] I literally, I thought he was joking and I out loud. This is the first time I let myself be loud because I thought it was a joke. So I looked at my co worker and I was like, who wrote that? And he was like, this first presidency. And I was like, in real life. Really? I couldn't believe it.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] What had your, like, you mentioned fro in the previous interview? Yes, but what were your views and were they evolving on LGBT issues as an orthodox believing Mormon?

Laura Schnell [00:35:44] They were evolving because I, after byu, after, you know, being a little more open minded and then seeing students that were gay that I just, you know, you just kind of make inferments. Maybe that's not good. But you know, I just. Or inferences. I don't know the word. Anyway, sitting in my classroom and some of them would come out to me, one of them came out to me. And she was, she was so sweet. And she said, I think I like girls, and I'm trying not to. And I, my gut reaction was to tell her, no, don't try not to. And I could hear myself saying it, and I was like, oh, man. And so then the policy, and I thought, I don't know how I feel about it. Given that, my first reaction was that I thought it was a joke. Let me know that I was, you know, I just was like, this isn't. Anyway, so that became challenging because then you're faced with, what do I teach? Because we were trained right away that, that lunch break thing that he said, look, look at this announcement. That night or that afternoon, the principal said, we have to meet about this. We have to teach the proclamation. We have to teach that about revelation. We have to teach. And then we start doing the polygamy comparison. Well, it's similar, you know, like polygamy children of polygamists can't get baptized till they're 18, because then it breaks the family apart. And same with gay parents. They don't want kids having two different ideas. You know, where you're at church, but then, then your parents are gay. That breaks the family. So anyway, we, I bought it. So I was like, yeah, okay. So I taught that. I was like, it's to preserve the family relationship. And so that's kind of the route I went. But then I don't remember when Kate Kelly was excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] 2014.

Laura Schnell [00:37:28] Okay? It was 14 when she was excommunicated. Okay, so 15. We were talking about all of that and the uproar.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] And I was in 15. I don't know if you'd even heard of Mormon's.

Laura Schnell [00:37:37] Oh, I did. I did. Because that same mentor, he said, and John Dehlin was excommunicated. And I said, who's John Dehlin? And he said, he's just an enemy to us. And I was like, really? And I remember being so scared. So ever since then, I was like, John Dolan. And so this is just a hilarious full circle, but, you know, I, I, we were told, like, make sure you teach the kids to be careful to avoid going down these rabbit holes of, you know, these, these ex Mormon people who are teaching that women should have the priesthood and that we should fight for it and etc.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] Would that mean that in a American Fork High school seminary class, you would say, stay away from ordained women or stay away from Kate Kelly or stay away from podcasts or stay away from Mormon stories or John de Lynn, or would you, would you usually phrase that more generic?

Laura Schnell [00:38:30] I would phrase it more generic.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] What would it be like?

Laura Schnell [00:38:32] I think some, like my mentor, I think he would perhaps say the names outright. I would say, you know, just remember that church sources, church approved sources are the right ones, you know, are the truth. These people, they have different ideas and they, they're, you know, they're bitter and they're lost. And we have the church approved sources. So don't stray and read anti Mormon material. I don't know why we would call it anti Mormon material, but that's what we called it. And so we were trained to, to please, instill faith. And so.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] And just because I really care passionately about informed consent. One of the problems with unhealthy organizations, it's the BITE model. They control behavior, but they also control information so that they can control your thoughts. In any organization that says, stay away from critics of the organization, stay away from learning from unapproved sources, that that is a red flag. Like I would say, learn about the Open Stories Foundation. Learn about Mormon stories, learn about me. There's good and bad, like be, be worried about somebody that says, don't, don't do your homework.

Laura Schnell [00:39:38] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Because it's a, it's, it's undue influence.

Laura Schnell [00:39:43] And I think.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] And this is where it happens in seminary. That's one of the places it starts.

Laura Schnell [00:39:47] Yeah. For a lot of people. And so my mentor told me, he said, look, I know John Dehlin, like, I listen to that stuff because I can handle it because my testimony is solid. That's how he knew you. But he said, but these kids aren't solid. And so we can't give them that. They're too vulnerable. So we have to give them truth and light. And anyway, so that became a lot to navigate. A lot.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] And so you were saying the Kate Kelly stuff and everything, by 2015.

Laura Schnell [00:40:18] Yeah, you got excommunicated. And so I remember feeling like a general unease just over, like thinking, whoa. And then we had lots of trainings in the summer. Lots of youth are leaving the church. We're having this and this and this. And we need to.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Do they give stats or numbers that.

Laura Schnell [00:40:33] That you remember they did? I don't remember any. I remember them quoting a stat by Elder Cook that he gave in conference. But I just remember thinking, were they

John Dehlin [00:40:44] big numbers and were they alarmed?

Laura Schnell [00:40:46] They, they were, especially because they were youth numbers. And so in our trainings, they would say, okay, we need to reach the 1. We need to make sure you know the gospel topic essays? Know them like the back of your hand. Now there are people like Mark who literally took that to heart. I was way too overwhelmed to do that. I was like, no, I'm not going to memorize these. I just kind of want a safe space for the kids to converse. I don't want to feed them this, but I will mention that they should read them. So I kind of half assed it a little bit, you know, what was

John Dehlin [00:41:20] their logic for wanting you guys to read and teach the gospel topics essays? What was the rationale?

Laura Schnell [00:41:27] The rationale is this is our way of being open and transparent. And these are church historians and sometimes not. I don't think they mentioned that, but when we were trained, it's like, hey, this was put together by lots of different minds. This is church approved. This is safe. The kids need to know, like, we're not surprised. Hey, guess what? We know Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Look, we have it in our essay. Read this. This is safe. This won't plant doubt, you know, and there was this thing called, oh, I can't remember. The uncharted path. You remember that, Mark? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Uncharted path.

Laura Schnell [00:42:01] Yeah. By 1950. Yeah, yeah. What's his name? Lawyer. Can't remember anyway.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Wilkinson.

Laura Schnell [00:42:09] No, no, no. Way before. Way before. Yeah, he actually.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] I did an episode on our Mormon stories. Oh, here, you can look that up. Uncharted path. Uncharted path, Mormon seminary.

Laura Schnell [00:42:19] So we had to memorize that. But it was also, you know, teach them the truth so clearly that. That they cannot mistake it. You know, teach it so clearly it could never be misunderstood. That that was it. Teach it so clear that not only do they understand, but that they cannot misunderstand whatever riddle that is. And so I think the topics essays was a way to be like, look, we have it. We're not surprised by it. There are nine versions of the first vision. Look, see, we know. Read our version. It's faithful.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] Read our explanation.

Laura Schnell [00:42:50] Read our explanation. It's our. It's. It's safe. It's ours. Don't wander over here. You know, this is faith promoting.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] The way that some of us kind of describe that is inoculation, that truth is a virus that can make people sick or kill you. But if you can give enough of it in tiny doses, early enough, just like a booster shot or vaccination, and it's like, oh, yeah, I heard about the Stone of the Haddon Seminar. I heard about the multiple verses of the first Vision. And my seminary teacher said, these are not the droids you're looking for that somehow that inoculation would make it so the kids wouldn't be fazed by it later on their missions or as adults. And I'm guessing they never actually used that term, inoculation.

Laura Schnell [00:43:36] I don't think I heard it. I heard it in the reverse way, which is, you know, give them the good. Give them the good stuff so that when they go out and they face the viruses, they are protected.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:43:49] So anyway, so I. Yeah, but. So that was a lot in 2015. But I lived in Provo at the time, and I was driving to American Fork, and I actually called the area director. Person emailed. I would never call. And I said, hey, could I. Is there any way to transfer over to Provo High? I would like to. Plus, someone mentioned that there's a lot more Latinos in Provo High, and I'm thinking maybe that would be good. And like, nope, you've only been teaching a year. We won't. You're still an apprentice. So after year two, then they said, hey, we maybe would you be interested in starting a Spanish program at Provo High? And again, it was the jokes at my faculty, and it was, well, Provo's ghetto. It's full of Mexicans. Like, you're gonna go to the ghetto? And I'm just like, okay. You know, and at the time, I'm just like, so that's. I mean, I'm brown. You know, I would try to justify, but I know it's just deeply, deeply held, internalized.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] Is that how you guys thought of Provo High?

Guest 2 [00:44:54] Yeah, I have a lot of repenting to do. Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:44:56] Because he was saying that he went to Tent view.

Guest 2 [00:44:59] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:44:59] So he would always say that.

Guest 2 [00:45:00] Yeah. So the. The way that Provo works is the two main high schools there are. North Provo is really, really wealthy, and I don't want to make it. Have anyone have any perceptions of me? I grew up in a very wealthy part of Provo, but my parents are like high school dropouts, like, truck drivers. So I don't know how they let us in. So I grew up around a lot of wealthy people, but with a complex now. Anyway, so North Provo, Tempeh, and then a little bit of South Provo, which is either BYU students or, like, a lot of Mexicans and Hispanics.

Laura Schnell [00:45:34] Right. And that's the thing is, like, they always say Mexicans. And I'm like, that's what I'm trying to tell you.

Guest 2 [00:45:39] I had a lot of repenting to do. I'm saying how it was perceived.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] I learned this in Texas, that anyone with brown skins of Mexican, this is a guy called to Guatemala. I'm like, what is that? There's only Mexico. And then I realized that there are a lot of Latin American countries that

Guest 2 [00:45:53] say, I'm telling you the language I'm using.

John Dehlin [00:45:55] People will call Brazilians Mexicans and they don't even speak Spanish.

Guest 2 [00:45:59] I know, sorry. I feel all self conscious, but you know what I mean? That's how it was perceived. Because the boundaries of Provo High are a lot more of. Just South Provo is a lot more like Hispanics and different, just different. Different demographics.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Probably lower ses, Right? Lower socioeconomic status, for sure.

Guest 2 [00:46:24] For sure. But there's, there's definitely rich parts of like, you know, places on the hill or down by the lake. There's, there's, there's groupings of different people. But Tempeh has a lot of snobs. And so Tempu is like, we're the coolest. Provo High can eat crap.

Laura Schnell [00:46:39] So.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] All right, thank you. Thank you, Kara, for the provost survey.

Laura Schnell [00:46:44] Good for the context.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:46:46] Now, you know, super good. Yeah. And so it almost felt like, you're going to the ghetto, I'm going to the ghetto. But you know what? I belong there. So, hey, I am happy. So I go and I. It's really hard because they're like, okay, we have a Spanish program. And we. It actually, it's tanking because we had this white 70 teacher teach it who spoke Spanish horribly. Yeah, yeah. And so they had like maybe five students and they're like, could you grow that program? And I was like, sure. And it was really hard. Very hard. I had very little resources. I'd only been teaching for two years.

Building a Spanish-Language Seminary Program

John Dehlin [00:47:24] You said in your notes that it had failed multiple times before it did.

Laura Schnell [00:47:28] Yeah, yeah. I was told they started it maybe 10 years prior. And again it was like a disconnect with the language. But what was weird is one of the teachers that the teacher that attempted to teach this class, he told one four years prior, me coming. He told one of the little freshmen boys, he said, look, I promise you this class will take off one day. A young 20, you know, 27 year old Latina is going to come in and teach it. Okay, I promise. And this little boy was like, sure. And then four years later, he's a senior. And I walk in, I'm like, hi, your Spanish teacher. And he just couldn't believe it. I was 27.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] The prophecy.

Laura Schnell [00:48:05] And so he was like, it was a Prophecy. Yeah, he was just freaking out. But anyway. And there's no way he wouldn't have known that four years prior. I wasn't even in the system, which is true.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] I'm going back.

Laura Schnell [00:48:12] Yep, there it is. So anyway, so it was kind of special to feel like I belonged there. We grew it over time. It was hard work. Lots of Venezuelan. It was. It was in the midst of the Venezuelan crisis, one of the many. And just lots. Lots of Venezuelans, many Mexicans, not any Colombians, actually, but, you know, different countries. Ecuador, Central America, so many beautiful, amazing, not strong in the gospel in any way at all. So the lessons shifted entirely. And so it was a little hard because there was privilege. Now I understood privilege in a different way. There's church privilege, where these, like, white kids are getting pizza parties for memorizing the, you know, the scripture masteries, which changed, by the way. And my. My Latin kids are like, scripture mastery. I don't have time to memorize this. Teach us about Jesus. Like the. You know, they're just genuine. Most of them weren't even active. They were just like, our friends told us to come because this would be fun. And I think all of them. I will say all of them have Catholic roots. We all do. We have Catholic roots. And so being in seminary kind of feels like, cool. This is.

John Dehlin [00:49:22] So these aren't necessarily Latin Americans that come to Provo or to Utah because they're Mormon. They may just come here because they need jobs. And this is where they come.

Laura Schnell [00:49:30] Yeah, a lot of them are, but a lot of them, yeah, this is where they come. And anyway, so I had a couple incidents. You know, one of them is I started feeling like my classroom was feeling too white for them. And I just felt like.

John Dehlin [00:49:48] Meaning what?

Laura Schnell [00:49:49] Okay, I have a picture of 15 white old guys on the wall. And some of these people, some of these students aren't. They're not Mormon. And so they're just like, what is this? And I have to explain. And so I decide, you know, maybe in the summer I'll take them down or maybe I'll leave them up and all these decisions. But the flag, the American flag was in my classroom, and we would pledge allegiance to it every day in the morning. And I just didn't. For some reason, I just didn't feel. I don't know. I just. I think maybe I was projecting. Perhaps my immigrant little self was like, you know what? No, I don't want this classroom to feel like an American classroom. I want it to feel like a warm, neutral Jesus classroom. This is about Jesus, not the American flag. And I was like, pretty set on that. So I took it down and I put another picture of Jesus on there because that's what I was teaching and that was my motive.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Darker Jesus.

Laura Schnell [00:50:47] Yes. Definitely a darker Jesus. Yes. Not the ones as cool as Mark always found the cool ones, but I found, you know, the ones that they provided that were cooler looking. And my principal was really worried about that. And there was already a couple of, you know, in seminary, you have to fit in. It's the church's baby. So if the church sometimes gets strict with fitting in seminary is way stricter. Like with dress, they would tell us, you know, you need to dress like the general authorities wives. And I'm just like, I need to look like Kathleen Eyring. No, like she's 85. And, you know, it just didn't. But they would say, you need to be, you know, your hair cannot be extreme. And I remember always being like, I can't wear my hair down. That's extreme. And little things. And I had henna because I went to India and I love henna. And so I had it.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] Is that temporary or more.

Laura Schnell [00:51:38] It's six weeks. Ish. And my principal was like, I don't know if this is a sin from high school or what, but I was like, no, it's just henna. It's mud. And he was like, okay, just remember we're in a fishbowl. So that fishbowl. Everyone's watching you. You're the example. You're the poster kid of seminary, so don't do anything stupid. And so I already kind of had those things on my.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] Is that an earring thing at all?

Laura Schnell [00:52:05] No, no, no. I had. I had a cuff once. The ones that you just take off and same thing. He was like, is that. And I'm like, oh, it's a cuff. And I took it off. And just remember, fishbowl, we don't want to. We don't want. We avoid the appearance of evil. So, you know, and I got my second piercing actually in seminary, but it was towards the end. But anyway, so I now have so racy a second piercing. But I took the flag down and he. He pulled me aside and he said, why did you do that? And I just expressed, you know, I. I want my students to feel comfortable. I don't feel comfortable with the flag here. I don't have any problems with the flag. It's just in my classroom with my immigrant students, I just don't want it here, that's all. I wasn't trying to hurt anybody's feelings. And he took it very personally. And he said, this is like the flag and the pledge and everything. It's like, what. Captain Moroni raised the title of liberty. And I was like, okay. And he was like, that's. It's just inappropriate. So I need the flag to go back up. Ironically enough, I try to put it back up, and then I accidentally. I did really accidentally drop it. And so the glass shattered, so I couldn't. I was like, I tried, I promise, but I broke it. It totally accidental. But is that a metaphor? So things like. Seriously, things like that, that I just didn't. I felt uncomfortable, and I tried to push my way, but I was less. I was more willing to be like, okay, I'll do it. You know, I didn't fight. I didn't want to fight. I didn't want to get fired. So then I just. If I couldn't show it. So if I couldn't. If I had to put up the flag, then that means I would double down in my classroom with how open I was with things with my students.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] About.

Laura Schnell [00:53:53] About. Like, if my immigrant students came and they wanted to talk about how they were so stressed out about the government or anything, I.

Guest 2 [00:53:59] Them.

Laura Schnell [00:53:59] I said, go vent. I didn't. You know, I let them vent, and I let them feel safe.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] And I said, like, anti immigrant sentiment.

Laura Schnell [00:54:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anti immigrant sentiment. Feeling like white people were racist. Especially sometimes at Probo, we have. Sometimes some kids that just didn't grow around. Didn't grow up around people of color. And so they say really insensitive things about. About immigrants. And so anyway, that was kind of my experience as I tried. I tried really hard to make it a safe space. I eventually did take some of the apostles down, but I would put him back up if. If I knew I was being observed. You know, I know I never wanted to be a rebel very often.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] Why? Why.

Laura Schnell [00:54:44] Why did I put him back up?

John Dehlin [00:54:46] Why did you take him down?

Laura Schnell [00:54:47] Oh, because one time I gave a lesson about how. And this was. This was after, I think, been thinking about some things, about how sometimes the general authorities are wrong on things. And I thought, they're gonna say things that are really gonna hurt my students. And I got really overprotective, and I thought, I don't. I don't want them to be in my classroom and then make eye contact with Cook. I just. And so I would take it down. Yeah, Cook or iron or. Well, eyeing is cute. We'll leave firing. But, you know, like oaks. And. And the. And the photos were right there. And so here's the class, here's the seat. And if a student was looking this way, he was just, you know, and so it just felt uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] The LGBT statements.

Laura Schnell [00:55:30] Yeah, the LGBT statements by apostles. By apostles, yeah. Statements on the family. A lot of my students had came from broken families or, you know, it just felt non traditional.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] Family.

Laura Schnell [00:55:44] Yeah, non traditional. It just felt off. And I taught that. I said, sometimes they'll make mistakes. And my principal, again, he heard it through the grapevine. Actually, some students, they were bothered by it.

Guest 2 [00:55:56] Uchtdorf says that we've made mistakes.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Right.

Laura Schnell [00:56:00] Why do you say that?

John Dehlin [00:56:01] And Uchtdorf's in the timeout chair.

Laura Schnell [00:56:04] Timeout.

Guest 2 [00:56:05] It's still up there on the church's website.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Uchtdorf got smacked. So.

Guest 2 [00:56:09] And to be quite frank, there are some leaders in the past who have made mistakes.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] And now he's no longer in the first president.

Guest 2 [00:56:16] That's just a coincidence. But I'm trying to say that, like, if. If. If he says that, there's no reason a seminary teacher can't say that.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] Uhhuh.

Laura Schnell [00:56:22] And the reason why my principal said that I couldn't. Again, you're instilling doubt. You don't. Don't instill doubt in these students. And so he was so worked up with me. I think he was so nervous, I was giving him ulcers because he's like, I have this brown loose cannon in my school, like she keeps. And he asked me that day, he sat me down and he said, I need. Need to know if you have a testimony of the brethren, and please bear it. And I was like, I do. I have a testimony that they're prophets, seers, and revelators, but not that they're never wrong like Paul. Like, you don't think Paul was ever wrong. And he said, I will never let myself say that Paul or any ordained person is wrong. And I was like, okay. So things got a little rocky towards.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] What'd you think about that? Having a bare testimony about the Brethren?

Laura Schnell [00:57:15] At the time, I hated it.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] Why?

Laura Schnell [00:57:17] Even at the time, I was just. I felt violated. Like, you would question my integrity. Like, you really think that I can't. It felt like, I need to know that you're still worthy to teach here. I need to know that you're teaching the right things. I need to know. And so anyway. And his daughter was in my class, and I really liked her, actually. And I liked him too. But I think if I would say certain things, I think maybe he did tell me. He said, she's coming home to me and asking me if you believe those things. And I was like, I do. And that's when he said, I need to know that you have a testimony of the brethren, please.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] Was he basically saying, any criticism is not acceptable?

Laura Schnell [00:58:00] Absolutely not acceptable in the least. As a seminary teacher especially, he's like, if you want to believe that and that at home, that's fine, but not here, because these youth are vulnerable.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Again, undue influence alert. When leaders are held as being infallible or given too much power and respect, it's the signs of being in an unhealthy organization.

Guest 2 [00:58:21] And can I just add, don't we hear this all the time from people who criticize, like ex Mormons or just apologists will say that, oh, you want the brethren to be perfect. And I never wanted the brethren to be perfect. I think most people understand that perspective is healthy. Like, yeah, I know that they've made mistakes. I heard Uchtdorf's talk. It's the people who often, sometimes lose their testimony because they have to be confronted with, oh, they've made mistakes. And it's, that's, that's the thing that breaks their shelf when they do put people on a pedestal. That, that is again, very unhealthy and utilizing tools of undue influence. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Yeah, it's, it's, it's complicated. But ultimately the most sacred thing in Mormonism is authority, period. And PR is number two, but authority is number one. And so you were basically in their minds, undermining respect of authority.

Laura Schnell [00:59:13] Right. And I think he would use that argument too. He would say, we value authority. He would never say that. But then you're the authority, so don't mess this up. Stop, Stop planting doubt. They look up to you. So incredible amount of pressure that the salvation of these students is in my hands. Which of course he would never say that, but that's how I felt. So anyway, and then there was pressure in seminary too, to graduate, because if you graduate, you get maybe blessings in heaven, I guess. But also BYU does look into that. And so anyway, my Spanish students were not even close to graduating. I mean, they had terrible attendance. They did not do their reading. You have to do in order to graduate. You could do certain certificates of completion, but those are more like, you know, the losing trophies. The, the A for effort. If you graduate full on legitimately. And Kara, you remember I graduated, you graduated. Hey, read. What else? Attendance reading. And when, Kara, this was after our time, but the test you have to take a test. It's called the assessment. It wasn't until I talked to Mark where I was like, dude, what do you do with the assessment? Because my kids keep failing it. And he was like, oh, I just pass all of them. I was like, yeah. So I, you know, it felt like I was fighting for my ethnicity in that building half the time. And it was all this pressure, like, well, how many students do you have? Only 15. Well, I don't know. The church can't. And it would be like, you know, seminary can't justify the cost of paying you a full hour if you only have 10 students. And I'm like, but didn't we say the one? And so the sheep analogy, Right? Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:01:04] Oh, my gosh.

Laura Schnell [01:01:05] We had a whole summer dedicated. It was called Reach the One. And so that was always, you don't

John Dehlin [01:01:11] have a full load because you have Hispanic students. And so they're like, I'm not sure we can pay you or your full salary.

Guest 2 [01:01:16] Because don't you remember that's what Jesus said? Like. Like, if you have to leave the 99, go to the 1, but you're not going to get a full salary if you were going in for the One that went off wandering in the

John Dehlin [01:01:25] forest, you go after the One, but you lose your health care.

Guest 2 [01:01:28] Don't you remember that old scripture?

Laura Schnell [01:01:31] Right?

Guest 2 [01:01:31] Because they are. They are tight wads, too, over there in the LDS Church. That actually really breaks my heart because

John Dehlin [01:01:37] they're broken because they don't have money. It's the widow's might. I'm kidding. We're being really sarcastic.

Guest 2 [01:01:43] Let's get back on the rails if that gets back to the kids that, like, for some reason the church wants to end this program because not enough people are attending. And you're like, okay, like, I was really vibing. I'm sure that probably happened time after time. Kids are really vibing in your class or other Spanish programs. But it's not financially feasible because it's

Laura Schnell [01:02:02] because it was paying me to.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] No, seriously, a church with the name of Jesus?

Guest 2 [01:02:07] That's really unfortunate.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] Shouldn't care if there's only a partial load in a class of brown people, of immigrants. It should be like, that's exciting. That's. That's where the gospel really. That's where the gospel is most meant to be. So it's kind of weird. They were threatening you with.

Laura Schnell [01:02:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Partial salary or benefits.

Laura Schnell [01:02:27] I mean, and. Well, and it was. It was. They. I wish that. That. That threat would have maybe felt better at the time. It was we will cancel your class. You will not teach it. So all those kids who signed up, I would have to turn around and say, go take a class in school or you're not allowed to take it. And so I actually did tell them, because I said, guys, they're gonna close our class. We need to bring more. And in a matter of two years, we had two full classes. So that was good. We started with nine, and then we ended with two classes of 20 something. One class of 30, one class of maybe 19.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] So you grew it. Just to put a fine point on it, you grew it from nine.

Laura Schnell [01:03:02] Two, two. What's. What's like 33 plus 19?

John Dehlin [01:03:07] Yeah, yeah, it's 52.

Guest 2 [01:03:09] That's really. I actually just had a moment where I forgot that I was an ex Mormon for a second because I was

Laura Schnell [01:03:13] like, that's so good. I'm so happy that there's people really,

Guest 2 [01:03:16] you know, learning about a religion in their release time, that I actually don't believe it anymore. So I'm like, I guess I'm pretty nuanced right now. I'm actually happy that that program succeeded for a religion that I don't technically believe in right now.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] But that's massive growth. I mean, that is a major accomplishment. You quintupled or you've more than quintupled the attendance in those classes. That's a major accomplishment.

Laura Schnell [01:03:39] Thank you. You know what? And I don't take all the credit. It was the kids. I mean, it was half me and then half them being like, let's grow this. This is a great place. And some of them, Kara, actually weren't even members. They just liked coming because it was fun.

Guest 2 [01:03:52] Yeah. Didn't Mark say that too?

Laura Schnell [01:03:54] Yeah, yeah. They just. They like, they feel loved. They. We laugh, sure. They have to sit through a lesson on some weird story they've never heard of, and that's it. And they participate. I had one kid, he was like. For three years. He came and he got baptized in the end. I don't think he's active anymore, but he was like, I like this class. I like how I feel. And so, I mean, it was. It was so worth. Was so worth it for me. And so, so beautiful. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. And it was fun. And we. We were. They. And a lot of times they would say, some of them. And a lot of them spoke English. It's not like they were all only Spanish speakers. A lot of them spoke English. A lot of them were like, me. A lot of them were born here. And they said, we finally Feel like we fit in in a church setting. And I was like, okay, that if I could do it just for that. For you to not feel how I have felt in white wards before. Even if the good. But even though it's good, you still feel out, you know, for them to feel like that. All in for me. And so that was great.

John Dehlin [01:04:58] Was it in. This is obvious. Was it in Spanish or English?

Laura Schnell [01:05:01] Spanish.

John Dehlin [01:05:02] Okay. It was all in Spanish.

Laura Schnell [01:05:03] All in Spanish. Yeah. And of course, we spoke Spanglish a lot and it was really fun.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] But so if the world is as it should be, you were a legend amongst your CES peers. Like, this woman grew quintupled. The enrollment in their. From one class of like 6 to like 52. You were a legend. And everybody would like, part ways when you walked down the hall, because they were.

Guest 2 [01:05:30] I did that when she walked in today.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] I know. That's what I'm saying. So how were you? Did you feel that reverence and respect from your peers and supervisors?

Laura Schnell [01:05:41] Yes and no.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Okay.

Laura Schnell [01:05:42] Yes. When it came to look what we're doing and this and then. No, because it was like, yeah, I mean, yeah, let's. That's normal. You know, we grow. That's what we're trying to grow. And it was always focused on growth.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] We expected.

Laura Schnell [01:05:55] Yeah, so we expected. But for the most part, lots of gracious coworkers that were really excited. So excited and. And even so much so that it was funny. They started. They started. What is it? Not discriminating, profiling. Their roles. They're like, hey, I have a Rosa Gomez. She could be in your class. And I'm like, well, you can't. You have to let them choose. You can't just go by their names. Sometimes they would feel so, you know, like, yeah, we want to keep growing and helping. So it was good. But I was the only full time release time, Spanish speaking teacher in the entire system. The entire history of the system.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] Look worldwide.

Laura Schnell [01:06:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] What?

Laura Schnell [01:06:38] Yeah, because anywhere else, it's release time. It's calling. I was fully employed full time, and it was a release time seminary in Spanish. And so that was just a big.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] That's pretty historic.

Laura Schnell [01:06:51] Yeah. The kid. I mean, I was like, you guys are historic. You know, we were. And so we were like riding Cloud 9 there. Even with all the pushback, it was awesome. And I love those students. They have a special place in my heart forever. So, anyways, good job. Hey, thank you. But I, you know, time went by and I eventually got pregnant. And in my head, I was like, okay, what could this mean, you know? And by the way, there is something worth noting. One of my students, he was a member, he was born a member, and he was a little bit more aware of things than my other Spanish speaking students. And he was like, hey, I want to talk about how the Book of Mormon is racist. And I remember being like, I don't want to talk about that. And that was the one time that I was kind of like, whoa, I don't want to lose them. But we talked about the Bible being racist, the Book of Mormon being racist, and that Spanish class was the best place to do it. The English classes were. I had to be way more careful. The Spanish classes, they were way more open to it. And it was that whole worth faithful regardless thing. So a lot of them just didn't care. Like, yeah, but the righteous Lamanites, it doesn't matter. But I remember still having, you know, and they were less worried about topics anti Mormon things. They were. It was a completely different vibe for that Spanish class.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] What was the student's argument that the Book of Mormon and. Or the Bible is racist. And then as a believing CES teacher, what were your thoughts on that at the time? I'm just curious.

Laura Schnell [01:08:36] I just.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] That's a conversation I have a hard time imagining.

Laura Schnell [01:08:39] Yeah, yeah. Because all of us are Latinos in the class talking about this book that we love and how the one student, he was pretty. I think he was set on it. He said, no.

John Dehlin [01:08:50] He said, you say why?

Laura Schnell [01:08:52] Yeah. He said, look, it says that white and delight some. And then he blanco, right? And then he said, and they became dark and loathsome. And he's like, dark like, like Moreno. And I was like, yes. And that's. That's why he wanted to talk about it. He's like, I want to know if this means, like dark like us. And I was like, I think it does mean that. And at the time, me being so in and everything, I felt terrible, but I was like, it's okay, we can embrace it. It was because the skin wasn't the curse.

John Dehlin [01:09:26] It was the mark that is the apologetic. Can you explain that to me? That it's not racist? Because the dark skin wasn't the curse. Yeah, the skin, it was just the mark. And somehow that made it less racist.

Laura Schnell [01:09:39] Yeah, it made it less racist.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] Why is that less racist?

Laura Schnell [01:09:41] Because it wasn't about skin color. It was about that they cut themselves off. It wasn't that they were cut off because they were brown. It was that they cut themselves off because they were disobedient. So that's what makes them dark and loathsome. They happen to have brown skin too. So that's kind of.

John Dehlin [01:09:58] By the way, that's blame reversal. Whenever a high demand religion or institution puts something bad happens in the context of the religion and the blame is put back on the member, it's a red flag sign of blame reversal.

Laura Schnell [01:10:13] So anyway, so that, that felt off. Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] You were given that explanation.

Laura Schnell [01:10:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] You didn't buy it even as you were giving it?

Laura Schnell [01:10:20] No, I did buy it. But it still doesn't feel, you know, you don't have words, you just have the feelings, you know, and you're like, this feels. You can't shake it. But your words and then logic, you're like, yeah, but the skin is not the curse. And we're all looking at each other with our brown skin and smiling and

John Dehlin [01:10:40] you call each other Lamanites.

Laura Schnell [01:10:42] Yeah, I mean, but I always reminded them, I said, remember, in the end they're more righteous, so it's okay. Which is not healthy because it's still a competition. We're more righteous. Well, we're more white. Well, we're, it's never about equity and never about unifying, you know, so anyway, but we didn't, we didn't have too many of those. It was very simple gospel talk with my Spanish classes. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] Interesting. And then the Bible. How is the Bible racist?

Laura Schnell [01:11:09] Oh, I honestly can't even remember the example I used. I'm, I'm. Well, okay, what about when God asks, you know, Moses, is, is it the Israelites. Yeah. To just slay all the Canaanites? And what about when the priesthood wasn't given to only the Levites? And then maybe now these people can have it. And now based on that. So I said, well, the Bible's racist too. That's okay. It's history.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] And that makes somehow that makes the Book of Mormon racism okay if the Bible is racist too.

Laura Schnell [01:11:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] Again, that's weird logic.

Laura Schnell [01:11:42] Yes, absolutely. It's no logic at all. Yeah, it just. But, but it made me feel better because I was like, look, it doesn't. And so my lesson was these books of scripture aren't perfect and maybe the history isn't perfect and that's okay.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] And when word gets back, did word get around that you gave that lesson?

Laura Schnell [01:12:04] Uh huh. Yeah. But my principal at that time, you know, he had already grilled me with everything, so he just, it was kind of like a check in. Like, did you mean that? And I was like, yeah, I meant it. But I fixed it. And I taught this and this. And he's like, okay. So I think. And I was so behind, too. I was way. I was really, really struggling with anxiety with lesson prep. It just felt too much. The curriculum is way too big, and the principles are really, really harsh. Their principles are always bolded and bolded so you can see if you skim. And they're always, like, always about something with obedience, always about something with repentance. And it just. I got way too much anxiety, and I was about to about 10, 20 chapters behind all the other teachers, so.

Teaching While Pregnant and Workplace Pressure

John Dehlin [01:12:48] Because it was just, what, a guilt and shame fest or just I. Yeah. Blind obedience.

Laura Schnell [01:12:54] Yeah. And I would just stick with one chapter that I liked, and we would just talk about it, and that's what I wanted to do, which was not what you should do. You know, you need to keep moving forward with the word of God and all that.

John Dehlin [01:13:06] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:13:07] So. And it's timed, and there's schedules and syllabus and grades, and you just can't slack. And I was majorly slacking in that regard.

John Dehlin [01:13:16] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:13:17] So anyway. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] So did you get in trouble? No.

Laura Schnell [01:13:22] No.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] Okay.

Laura Schnell [01:13:23] No. Just always talking to, you know. Always talked to. That's why. That's what makes Mark's story so tragic, is that he got just nailed, whereas

John Dehlin [01:13:32] Mark Oslin got nailed.

Laura Schnell [01:13:33] Mm. Just every. I mean, trouble and letters and warnings. I think for me, I don't know if maybe I was too much of a commodity, you know, with the Spanish class. But also, I was very. I didn't push. If I was told something, I went home and babbled about it. But I was like, back down.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] You back down.

Laura Schnell [01:13:51] Yeah. Yeah. I didn't want to lose my job. I didn't want to be a red flag. So I think that asking me about my testimony of the Brethren really put me in my place. And so anyway. But I had to decide if I was going to keep teaching because I was pregnant. I got pregnant in 2017, and there wasn't anything set in place. And so everything was kind of up in the air. I couldn't figure it out. I. Eventually, I worked all the way. Unclear until I gave birth, like, five days prior. But, you know, while I was pregnant, there were some incidents, too. And I remember the strictness of seminary really got to me. And, for example, they had changed the rule that winter that you could wear pants. And I was so excited. I was like, finally, it's winter in Provo. And so I wore pants, and I was loving it, and my co workers were wearing pants. The two. The Two other girls, one part time and one full time, like me and this guy from byu. I think he was a pre service guy. He came to visit Provo for some reason and then he left. And my principal called us women into his office and he said, hey, today we had someone from BYU come visit. He mentioned that the sister's pants are too tight. And I just need to call your attention, that you need to be more appropriate with your dress. And I mean, I was like maybe 15 weeks pregnant. And I remember just being so angry in that office. I didn't really know what to do, really. So I was just really mad and I.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] Were you? Were you. I'll just have to ask. Were you wearing extra tight pants to turn on the seminary students?

Laura Schnell [01:15:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:15:46] Or to be hot to your seminary students?

Laura Schnell [01:15:49] Never. No.

Guest 2 [01:15:49] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:15:50] My pregnant self. Yeah, Never. They thinking, I don't know, I don't know. And they. It was really inappropriate. And I felt that was towards the end there, you know, and I was pregnant, so I knew. I'm like, okay, my full time teaching is coming to an end and my patients too.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] Because you're pregnant. So they. Because you didn't want to teach full time?

Laura Schnell [01:16:08] Yeah, because I thought, I don't know if I want to teach full time. I'm not sure. And so my patients started wearing thin, so I would start talking back more. So even though I would back down, I would still maybe talk to my principal. So I said, I, that's so inappropriate that he would come and that he would just look for that or look at that and decide to comment on it, number one. And number two, really upsetting that you wouldn't stand up for us. And he was just really, like, taken aback by me. And then I was like, and I have a prenatal appointment, so I'm going to go. And I just walked out of his office. And so that was one incident, you know, where it's just things started just getting kind of unbearable. Sometimes being a woman and maybe being a pregnant woman maybe exacerbated it because it was constant questions, you know, are you gonna teach full time? What are you gonna do? Are you gonna stay home? What do you. So anyway, did you also feel.

Guest 2 [01:17:10] They said that you were in the fishbowl of the model? Did you have a perception that you had no choice but to, you know, quit? Because even though it wasn't the policy, you wanted to have a good example to the other students that women stay at home? Was that part of the discussion too?

Laura Schnell [01:17:25] Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. You bring that up because someone, a co worker, I can't remember if it was a co worker or a principal. I said, you know, I might, I want to stay home to, you know, I might want to stay home with my baby. And he was like, what an example, you know, to your students. He's like, here's a working mom. And then she has a child and then she, you know, she puts the family life or home first. And then after him saying that, I was like, okay, I need to be an example of that kind of a thing. Even though, you know, this is 2017, it's not like you can't work full time, but.

John Dehlin [01:18:01] And kids like, it wouldn't be a good example for young Mormon women to see a working moment. Seminary teachers, since they might have to be full time working moms themselves. Why wouldn't that be maybe an inspiring example?

Laura Schnell [01:18:17] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So anyway, I just, I kept teaching. I kept going. I, I told them I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure. I said, what if I teach part time? And they said, well, with part time, you're back to hourly and no benefits. And I was like, oh, that kind of sucks because now I need benefits because I'm going to have a baby. But they were like, if you're going to be part time, you will not be working 40 plus hours. So that puts you at a no benefit employee who's hourly. And so again, they wanted an answer and I kept pushing, no, I don't know, I don't know. And then I finally got. We got the next year's role for, for teachers, we always kind of get that the end of the year, here's who's coming next year, here's who our new employees are. And then I was on the list for leaving and it was like, we're saying goodbye to Sister Chanel who's having a baby. And I was like, oh, I didn't say I was gonna leave, but okay. And so I think they just made that decision. Yeah, they just made that decision. And I think one of them did say, like, I didn't know what to do. So I put it on the safe side that you were leaving just in case. So I was like, that's okay. I am. That's okay. So anyway, yeah, that's just, I. The summer happened and then I got, what is it, maternity leave. And I actually got to have an extra week of maternity leave because I got paternity leave because I was the employed one. So I got to have the extra weeks. I Got seven weeks. So that was nice. But then it was that question of, okay, are you coming back? And part of me was like, okay, I'll come back. I'll come back. But not full time and only to teach Spanish classes. I was pretty sold on that. I felt okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:20:07] And can I just make one small point?

Laura Schnell [01:20:08] Yeah, yeah, please.

John Dehlin [01:20:09] I'm pretty sure when I was at Microsoft, I left in 2005, women got three months maternity leave and husbands got a month maternity leave.

Laura Schnell [01:20:20] Seriously?

John Dehlin [01:20:21] So step up.

Guest 2 [01:20:22] Those are in the dark ages.

John Dehlin [01:20:24] That was like before there were telephones. So step up, Mormon Church. Microsoft's beating you out.

Laura Schnell [01:20:30] Seriously?

John Dehlin [01:20:31] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:20:32] Wow, that would be incredible.

John Dehlin [01:20:34] Can you imagine?

Laura Schnell [01:20:35] No.

Guest 2 [01:20:35] So many things about Mormon family values that I think are beautiful and that if they practice more of what they preach to give mothers more time for their newborns and fathers as well. I hope this gets back to headquarters.

John Dehlin [01:20:48] Or even just get letting you be part time and still have health benefits. Like, how much does it really cost the church to their insurance policy to have? I mean, there aren't like a bunch of women wanting to work part time and be moms, but also. And why wouldn't you want that? So, like, the marginal cost of. Of truly marginal health insurance for. For a part time working mom, would that really put the church out financially? Would that too much bleed into the $150 billion that they've got at Ensign Peak? You know?

Laura Schnell [01:21:23] Seriously? Yeah. And I actually brought that up. I said, is there any way to do some sort of thing. Deal. I don't know what to call it. I was talking to the HR rep and he said, I'm so sorry, if you do not work more than 33.5 hours a week, I cannot put you as a full time, fully benefited salaried employee. And so there was nothing to be done. And I said, okay, but I'm pretty sure I'm the first one to be pregnant as an employee. He's like, yeah, you're actually the second. He's like, so we're new at this. Be patient with us. We're trying to figure this out. And I reached out to that first one and she was like, oh, I just quit indefinitely. It was too much. So I thought, man, no one has kept at it. But anyway, I come back and so I go to Provo, but then the Timpanogos principal, who is just an absolute sweetie, he calls me up when I'm still pregnant, by the way, just backing up a little. And he said, hey, would you be interested in teaching our Spanish Class, maybe you could do a milk run. It's called a milk run when you go to one school and the other. And so I was like, oh, I'll have to think about it. I'm pregnant, but I'll think about it. And Mark was like, I'm at Timpanogos. Come to Timpanogos. We can hang out. And so I was like, okay, maybe. So I ended up saying yes to both. So what I would do, as I. When my baby was seven weeks old, was my first day, is I taught at Timpanogos. And then on the even days, on the odd days, I would teach at Timpanogos. Even days, I would go to Provo and I would teach their Spanish class. But like we were discussing, the Spanish class grew, and so we were going to split it, and I was like, I can't teach two classes at the same time. I physically cannot. It is physically impossible. And so I'll keep doing one class at a time, and I'll keep doing one class at Provo. And that. That was fine. That was okay. It was hard to have zero insurance, and it was hard to have way less money. But whatever. I did it. I didn't. I just didn't feel right leaving the Spanish classes behind. It just didn't. So after a while, those schedules actually started merging. After the winter semester, the Timpanoga schedule and the provost schedule merged because they're different school system. School. What are they? Districts. And so I called my principal and I said, hey, I have bad news. As of January, I cannot teach at Provo anymore. I'm so sorry. You need to find a teacher. You need to hold them off while you train. And you have something in place to train a Spanish teacher. You need a native Spanish speaker to teach the Provo class. You can't just dump them. I'm at Timpanogos because they're brand new. They're babies. I just started. I can't leave them. I'll go here. I'll stay with you as. As long as I can. But after January, it's literally at the same time, so I can't. And I'm going to choose Timpanogos. And he was like, oh, okay, okay. Nobody. They had no one. I'm like, there's no one. They're like, no. And I'm like, nothing's in place, right? Nothing's in place to train a Latin American seminary teacher. And he said, nope. And so I said, well, what's going to happen to that class? Well, I guess we'll Just have to close it or I have to pause

John Dehlin [01:24:40] and just say almost half the Mormon church is Hispanic, you know, from Latin America. Like if you look at the numbers, Mexico, Brazil, South America, like we are oozing Latin American members.

Laura Schnell [01:24:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:53] I'm just kind of stunned at the privilege I'm just stunned at the privilege of kind of the white east bench, Utah Mormons and just the level of religious education that they get.

Laura Schnell [01:25:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] And how they, they were like lucky to have one Spanish speaking seminary teacher in the entire system. And like couldn't find a second like that disparity. When you compare that to the percentage of Latino members in the church, it's kind of mind boggling.

Laura Schnell [01:25:27] Yeah, yeah. And that's what I kept saying. I said, okay, fine, then find one for the moment, go ask somebody in a stake, you know, a Latina, maybe 50 something year old woman. And so they tried that, but they were like, but we need her to, she needs to teach this and the principals and that. Like you're trained. And I'm like, well, I'm trained because I went through the English program. Of course I'm trained. But we need to find someone in the meantime so this class doesn't get lost. They were just going to close it. They're like, we'll just put them in English classes. And I said, after all that work. No. And of course again I couldn't. It was at the same time I couldn't.

John Dehlin [01:26:04] This is your baby, right?

Laura Schnell [01:26:05] You built it. Yeah. And so it was, it became stressful and I had a brilliant idea. I was like, wait, wait, I remember when I was at Provo full time, there was a student teacher, you know, and he's Mexican and he's fantastic.

John Dehlin [01:26:22] He's actually Mexican.

Laura Schnell [01:26:23] He's actually Mexican from the country of Mexico speaking. Yes, yes. Because that's another thing. They said, they're like, what if we have like an English speaking or what if we have a regular seminary teacher but Spanish speaking? And I said it might not work. Yeah, I was like, that might not work. I just don't think it'll be the same connection. So. And of course good for you to fight for that. Well, I was, I don't know. So I called him and he didn't get the job, by the way, because after you student teach, you don't get hired. You get hired or you don't get hired. And he didn't get hired. And I said, why didn't you get hired? And he said, well, I just, I don't know, maybe they didn't like me, fast forward. He has another job and he's fine. So I call him and I said, look, I kind of have an emergency situation. You're seminary trained. You went through the program. You did one year of it. You didn't get the job, and that's okay, but how would you feel about maybe coming back part time and teaching a Provo class, Please? And he was like, oh, when is it? I can't. Tuesdays and Thursdays at 2pm and he's like, that's right in the middle of work. I guess I could talk to my boss. And I was like, please. It would save our Provo class. I'm teaching at Timpanogos. I cannot teach at both. It's at the same time, so I physically cannot. And so he was like, I'll talk to my boss. Anyway, ends up, he can do it. So we saved the Provo class. We did it. So now. So he's there now, okay. And he's telling me, you know, like, okay, this is good. Your students love you. What can I do? And I was like, well, you're trained. And I talked all the supervisors because they were like, oh, who? Well, he didn't get hired for a reason. And I'm like, I know, but he's Mexican. He's faithful, he's wonderful. He's trained. It's kind of the best. Like, we found the perfect person to take the Spanish class since you wouldn't find anyone else. And so they're like, all right, fine. So he's there. I'm at Timpanogos. There is financial strain in my family. We have a baby. There's an addition, and there's less money. Right. You have one more mouth. Yeah. No benefits, less money. And my husband's job is a tiny little photo lab. They don't have anything in place. And so I'm thinking, okay, I kind of have an idea. And I've been thinking about this because we've been having more and more meetings because this area authority, he had just come back from serving a mission, and he was just gung ho, just on fire about Spanish, speaking people about Spanish, about Lamanites, about God, about everything with religion and Latinos.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] So they invited the spirit of Spence wq.

Laura Schnell [01:29:07] He really did. So he came and watched one of my classes and was like, in tears and love. And he said, this needs to grow. The gospel needs to go to the righteous Lamanites. And there are so many, and it's booming. Orem has a ton. Provo has a ton. Timpanogos you know, and so he. He was just so excited. And I. I let. I appreciated that because I felt like I had backup from a big guy, you know, I had backup from not only the supervisors, but an area authority. It's called an administrator. Area administrator, aa. So he was cool, and I was like, how are you going to grow this if you don't have a coordinator? You know, and in seminary, a coordinator is someone that after five or ten years of teaching, they get assigned to a different place that's not full time to be the head of institute. So if any of you have gone to institute in Iowa and California, there's a guy who was the head of that, and that's a coordinator.

Guest 2 [01:30:05] Right.

Laura Schnell [01:30:06] Or they have different assignments too. They're over, you know, early morning seminary and things like that. So anyway, I thought, well, what if, like, maybe I can coordinate? I mean, what would I be doing? I would be training teachers. We would be recruiting teachers in the seminary system that are Latinos. Right. Latinx. We would train them the right way, which is, you know, the seminary way. And they would be great. This would be great. And we could keep growing the program. It's growing in Timpanogos. It's at Tempu. I actually taught at Tempu for a little bit. A tiny little Spanish program, Provo. I was like, I could do this. Plus, guess what? Being a coordinator would put me out full time, so less teaching. I could do all the back administrative stuff and be at full time. So of course, I'm thinking this is beneficial financially, but also, this is great if we.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] We.

Laura Schnell [01:31:00] If we want to keep growing this. So I had.

John Dehlin [01:31:03] Can I add something, please?

Laura Schnell [01:31:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] It sounds like you were also the only person in the entire system that had the amount of experience you had doing exactly what you would be training other people to do. Am I right?

Laura Schnell [01:31:15] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:31:15] Right?

Laura Schnell [01:31:17] Yeah. Yes, yes. Because no one else had taught, no one else had grown it, no one else had seen it.

John Dehlin [01:31:22] Just this other person you had just brought on, who was brand new.

Laura Schnell [01:31:25] Yeah, yeah. And so I thought it was a good idea, I guess. And I called Mark actually, and he. I was like, hey, help me write a letter to. To this area admin. You know, he's the head. Head guy. He's in Salt Lake whenever. In seminary, whenever people want to make a big deal about the authority, they say Salt Lake. Like, well, Salt Lake said if you say that, you're like, oh, that's official. So this AA was in Salt Lake. Anyway, so I called Mark and I'm like, hey, help me write a letter, like an email to try and convince him to give me this coordinating position. What do you think? And he was like, absolutely, man. Like, let's, let's do it. I think you could do the right things. I think you could say the right things for this to be feasible, you know? So I do. And I never hear back from him ever to this day. Never heard back. I don't know if he got it. I don't. I have no idea what happened. So I kind of let it go. But then the supervisor, he's the area, it's called the principal. Then after the principal, there's the area supervisor. I'm gonna call it. Yeah, yeah, Higher than that. Yeah, because the name's Swab. So I don't want to get confusing. But he kind of calls us into this meeting and he said, I want to organize a Spanish committee. And I'm like, yeah. He's like, I think what you've done in Provo is wonderful. I think it can grow. We have permission from Salt Lake. In fact, we have the push from Salt Lake. Let's do this, let's grow this. And so I said, okay, great. And so there was a teacher at the time and he was teaching in Orem and he was just, he and his principal were just staunchly against it, like, absolutely not. And he's Latino. And he was like, nope, nope, nope, we cannot. I so against it. And the principal too, he was like, no, this can't work. We cannot grow the Spanish program. This can't work.

John Dehlin [01:33:36] You know why?

Laura Schnell [01:33:37] Yeah, because they're here now. They're here now. Why should they get catered? Should we have a class catered for only divorced parent students? Should we have a class cater to just queer students? Should we have. That was his argument. Why should we cater to the Latin youth?

John Dehlin [01:33:52] And one of them was Latin.

Laura Schnell [01:33:54] Uh huh.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] Was there also kind of a assimilation argument? It's like, hey, they need to learn English, they need to learn to be with the other kids. And we're doing them a disservice.

Laura Schnell [01:34:03] 100%.

John Dehlin [01:34:04] They're learning in Spanish the gospel. They're not with the other white skinned kids. How are they ever going to get married? You know?

Laura Schnell [01:34:13] Right.

Guest 2 [01:34:14] Call back.

Laura Schnell [01:34:17] Yeah, that is what he was saying.

John Dehlin [01:34:19] And there's a bit of internalized racism there. Maybe. I mean, I shouldn't assume that.

Laura Schnell [01:34:22] No, there's a lot of internalized. He had, from what I heard, he had a lot of trauma at BYU as a, as an immigrant. And so I understood what he was saying. And I'm like, look, I get it. I really do. But at the same time, what these kids have. They're immigrants, some of them are refugees. Some of them just want to be in this class just because they feel accepted. And he was like, no, that creates segregation. That's separatism. You know. And then the people started being like, that's a good point. And I was like, okay, well, I'm not full time. I have no power. You. You guys decide. I'm just saying we shouldn't get rid of the classes that are already formed. I'm just saying that that's my argument.

Guest 2 [01:35:10] Can I ask a question, too, on the segregation comment? I think people. That. That's a pretty common. I'm assuming, thing that happens when people feel more comfortable with other people that maybe have similar backgrounds and experiences. Is. But that had. There had to be some pushback, right? That, like, no, we're actually teaching it in Spanish. This is. This is like, you know, especially if they're immigrants, they're. Maybe their English isn't as. They wouldn't even be able to participate in lessons. I'm guessing, like, the. The atmosphere of the. The Spanish. The Spanish language class. Right. That's like a completely different ball game. It's not just separating people because you're brown and you're white. It's quite literally connecting with. With their background and the language they feel comfortable in. Right?

Laura Schnell [01:35:54] Yeah, absolutely. And that is literally almost verbatim what I said. I said, well, then why did they attend Spanish wards then?

Guest 2 [01:36:04] Yeah, those don't cost money.

Laura Schnell [01:36:06] Yeah, I'm just. And so his argument was like, no, but they're in school. We cannot. They shouldn't be catered to in school. They're in school to learn. And. But then my argument was always like, but it's the gospel. And in alma, he says that the gospel should be, you know, in your. In the language, you know. And so I don't know what scripture that is, but I know it's native tongue. Yeah, your native tongue. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] Lord speaks to people in their own tongue.

Guest 2 [01:36:31] Okay, great point.

Laura Schnell [01:36:32] Yeah. But still, it was like, well, I don't know. I'm not sure. Then again, I'm like, who are you, dude? You're nobody. You're just a teacher. But his arguments were compelling enough to create just this contention all the time. And he, you know, his principal, which was on. He was on his side. Who was on his side. And he was like, well, how about this? The students are only in the Spanish classes because of, you you know, but we can't recreate another Laura Schnell. And I was like, okay, well, I'll take that as a compliment. But also, no, we can train. I can't possibly be the only person who can teach these classes. And so anyway, it became this, this or that. But then this area administrator, another one, basically from Salt Lake. We got the note, we got the email, we got the memo, hey, nope, this is happening. The Spanish class will grow. The end of argument. So we kept going on with it, and he had to begrudgingly figure it out. He was one that called me a coconut.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] Okay, talk about that.

Laura Schnell [01:37:40] We were just. We were talking about the importance of assimilation on his end. He's like, they need to assimilate.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] So a Mormon Latino.

Laura Schnell [01:37:52] A Mormon Latino seminary teacher is saying. Is saying, they need to assimilate. They're here now. They need to speak English. They need to, you know, they need to not be catered to. And I said, but at the same time, though, I don't understand. I said, but, but don't you feel empathy if they don't understand, they're just going to sit in the back of a classroom in English. Don't you want them to feel welcome and loved and maybe comfortable? And he said, well, no, they're here now. That's what they need to learn. It's hard for all of us. And I'm like, well, I remember. And he was like, do you? You're a coconut. And I was like, what? What? And he's like, brown on the outside, white on the inside. He's like, did you have to assimilate? And I'm like, I absolutely had to assimilate. Just because I came here as an 8 year old and you were 20 doesn't mean I didn't assimilate. I just happened to assimilate better than you because I was younger. Anyway, this argument literally happened in front of everyone. Nobody said anything. Everyone was silent. The supervisor was like, okay, well, let's talk about the pizza party that's coming up. Anyway, so that was really offensive. And. And at said pizza party, we invited the area administrator and he came and it was really, really, really boring. It was the biggest letdown. We had a pizza party for all the Latino youth in the Orem Provo. Yeah, Orem Provo area got like 500 pizzas. And then he came and he just talked about, like, obedience and repentance. And I was just like, that's okay. And even the. My principal in Timpanogos, he was like, I was really disappointed I was hoping it would be more of a fiery, come to seminary. We love you. We're creating classes for you. So that was kind of a downer. But in that pizza party, I was kind of left by myself, and I was saying bye to the kids, and this teacher approached me, the coconut teacher, and he basically just. He just berated me. He said, hey, I was in your classroom. He subbed it for a little bit during that weird time where we needed a teacher here and a teacher there. And so he subbed my class for like, maybe three weeks or so while we were figuring out ironing out the Provo class episode, remember? And he said, you're way behind. Your students have no idea where you should be. You're teaching. You're teaching things that don't matter. You're not teaching the word of God. You are not teaching how God intends seminary to be taught. And he told me everything. And I just stood there. I really didn't know what to say. And I said, well, I think it's important to ease them in. Into the culture. And he said, no, what's important for them is the word of God, the Gospel, plain and simple, and your teaching wrong. And that was kind of the end of my. That was really what kind of pushed me over the edge where I just didn't feel any desire after that to teach. I just felt really. I was just depleted, especially because I told my supervisor about this incident and I told my principal about it because I felt attacked. It doesn't matter if he was right and I really believed he was right. I wasn't teaching the right way. I was teaching culture, and I was teaching Q and A, and I was teaching let's talk about chastity and things that are difficult. And I was not teaching the word of God. I should have been in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 18. I was. Was barely in the introduction. And so I admit that, and I get that, and I know that was crappy, but I was trying my best. And so I talked to them and I said, hey, I was. He really verbally just. It. He. It felt really terrible. And all I got back was, well, he is standing up for the word of God. And you know that that's important. So anyway, I just kind of felt hopeless there. Like, okay, no one. No one's there to. I don't know, whatever. It just. No one's there to empathize. No one's there to say, oh, that's kind of. You know, that's kind of a. In this male dominant workplace, we have Here, a male teacher. Yeah, right, yeah. Attacking, verbally being unkind or whatever you want to call it, this teacher. And nothing does anything, no one does anything about it. No one sits him down. No one, Nothing. No consequences. I'm just told, well, I know maybe that was. Yeah. But the word of God, he understands. And we have a motto in seminary. It's like the, it's our theme. It's like the young women's theme. We actually have to recite it sometimes. I didn't memorize it purposely, but it was our goal. Our goal in something, something is to make sure the kids have a testimony so that they can get sealed in the temple, make covenants and return back to the celestial kingdom, Kingdom and through the word of God. And so he basically was telling me, you're doing it all wrong. And I mean, I, I think my supervisors were like, you might be doing it all wrong, but they weren't going to do anything about it. But anyway, just a little thing that a woman just. I just felt completely powerless, speechless. Not even empathy. Just like, sorry that happened. Nothing, nothing else. So I'm so sorry.

Guest 2 [01:43:05] I have a video, one of my most popular tiktoks about that. That was kind of a shelf breaking moment when I realize that the only people in the church that are really advanced are the ones that when orthodoxy and empathy butt heads, if you choose empathy, you're going to sometimes get more progressive or you're going to start looking for cracks in the system. But if you, when it butt heads or the 2015 policy, or when you're standing up for the rights of your, like Latino children, that when every time you choose empathy and it butts heads of orthodoxy, you're not going to get advanced in the system. And it sounds like you're explaining that exact thing that when you were butting heads, you're going for the empathy card for the orthodoxy card. They're saying, no, we're choosing Orthodoxy. Empathy. Empathy by definition has to, has to finesse, it has to nuance orthodoxy. And in a church where the advancement is all based around how much. What's the line you just said about I'm standing up for the gospel is what they said. Yeah, there's no I'm standing up for empathy. You don't win by saying, I'm standing up for empathy in the church, you say, I'm standing up for orthodoxy. Advancement, advancement, advancement.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] And that's so empathy should be orthodoxy. Like, what was Christ's central message? Wasn't it love? Wasn't it kindness? Wasn't it look out for the marginalized. Like, it seems like empathy should be orthodoxy and the primal.

Guest 2 [01:44:27] Not when there's an HR department.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] But. No but, but, but I mean, this is very similar to Marco's Lind. It just sounds like if you make. Tell me, tell me what the problem is with the seminary institution pro the CES program. What I'm hearing is if you are loving the kids too much, caring about them too much, making it too personal, making it too interesting, making it too relevant and compelling. Bad. But if you make it less personal, less loving, more strict, more orthodox, more obedience focused somehow. Good. But if I think about Jesus, which side. Help me here. Which side is Jesus coming down on?

Laura Schnell [01:45:09] Yeah, just like, did I misread?

Guest 2 [01:45:11] No, like I was thinking about when you said like that the kids need to always have, you know, the signed thing from their parents. I understand there's like legal implications from that of like, you need to have signed documents. And then I just think of Christ technically, when he came to earth, if he did, but he didn't really establish a church. And now people are taking these teachings of Christ and they have to figure out how to work it into a system that's technically functions as a corporation, like with a, you know, HR department. And the Christ that I loved and still love is the kind that when a woman reaches out her hand to be healed just because she wants to touch him. I wish that there was that feeling in the seminary of like, kids, the fear, the spirit. Here they feel so loved by their maker when they come into this building. You don't need a piece of paper. We don't need to like, like, put up these boundaries between who's allowed to be here and who isn't and that I'm teaching directly to the, to the correlated curriculum or whatever. It's because I'm teaching as a representative of Jesus Christ. And I want people to feel like all you need to come in here is in this building. And you will leave filled with the spirit when you go back to school. I would hope that's kind of what the church that I dedicated 30 years of my life to. I would hope that that's the, the message that they give to the people who are teaching the church, who employed by the church. But. But sounds like not quite that message.

Laura Schnell [01:46:30] And you know what's crazy is what you're saying is so true, that what I loved what you said about all you need to do is come inside. That's it. You don't need to do anything else. And for some reason that's just not enough to sustain employment. It's like we need to be so legit that we make it. We squeeze the empathy and Jesus out of it because we want legitimacy. No, this is a class. Like, you have rules and you have to come in and as a teacher, take your job seriously. You can't just dilly dally and teach love. No, you have to teach commandments and the word of God and the curriculum and blah. Because I don't know if it's this need to feel, I don't know, a power trip. I just don't know. And I know so many, like the Timpanogos principle, so loving, so empathetic, so incredible, and he. He finds a way to do both somehow. But really, he won't push the line or else he'd be out of a job, you know, and so it's that weird, sticky. And, you know, and we see some changes. You know, we see a little bit. A seminary teacher I'm pretty sure came out as gay, and he's being propped up and it's great. And I'm like, that's good.

Guest 2 [01:47:40] Or tokenized.

Laura Schnell [01:47:41] Or tokenized. Hey, who knows which one? I don't know, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, good, okay. And guess what? You can't. You don't have to wear white or suits anymore. You can wear blue shirts. Hey, who did that and got in trouble in 2014? Oh, Mark Oslin. You know what I'm saying? And so, yes, it's getting better sometimes. And yes, it's frustrating still. But is the answer, at the end of the day, is it empathy and true love like Jesus? Or not religion just.

John Dehlin [01:48:09] It's almost comical. Religion just seems to be its own worst enemy. Who was Christ mocking? The Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Publicans? Like all the legalistic people that cared more about rules and systems than the people. And yet somehow religions just always gravitate back. Even Christian religions seem to always gravitate back to become the thing that Christ was fighting. Yeah, I think. Am I right? Do I have that right?

Guest 2 [01:48:36] I had some good ideas, he had some good ideas. And. And you mix, like capitalism with good ideas.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] But let's just face it. Jesus may be powerful. He may be able to walk on water and heal the lepers, but can he imagine $150 billion in assets and still keep the church loving and compassionate and kind? That's something that maybe even exceeds Jesus power because, frankly, we don't know if he could do that. He's Having a hard time with his church, I guess.

Laura Schnell [01:49:02] I guess so. Yeah. And so many. It's so interesting. A lot of. Of the students that I've talked to who are figuring out their faith, it's because they're like. It just doesn't seem like Jesus anymore. And. And so I don't know. Seminary kind of patterned that a little bit with how lawyer like it was and not lordly. Jesusy. I don't know.

Guest 2 [01:49:27] I had a big problem with that as well. You were. You were saying earlier about how, like, you just wanted to teach, the kids just wanted to learn about Jesus, but you're forced to teach. Will you go into that a little bit more about, like, what your average. Because you go through Old Testament, New Testament one year, Book of Mormon, one year, DNC one year. And so I'm assuming that the New Testament year is pretty much your Jesus year.

Laura Schnell [01:49:48] Yes.

Guest 2 [01:49:48] And then other than that, there's, like, Hellfire Brimstone year. There's, like, the church history year, and then the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:49:55] Well, even New Testament has Revelation and the Second Coming.

Guest 2 [01:49:59] Skipped those.

Laura Schnell [01:50:00] I did.

Guest 2 [01:50:01] Yeah. So how did you teach to what you felt passionate about, what the kids were connecting with on the years that Jesus isn't the main central figure.

John Dehlin [01:50:09] Sounds like she's a.

Laura Schnell [01:50:10] On the off years.

Guest 2 [01:50:11] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:50:12] Yeah. I mean, honestly, I would literally skip the things I didn't.

Guest 2 [01:50:18] Like, have people noticed? Like, your superiors?

Laura Schnell [01:50:22] Sometimes, sometimes not. I think the students liked it. So I think there was enough of, like, no, everything's nothing to see here type of a thing. But some students, some, like, super students, were like, how come we're still in chapter two and everyone else is an alma? And I'm like, because Mosiah 2 is important. It's about service and let's talk. And so I. And sometimes I will say the anxiety of having to bring myself to prepare another lesson, another one, another, another. It. It just felt mechanical and. And some people. And Mark was like, dude, come on. Just, you know, let's do it. And. And he would. And he would be great. And he would send me his lessons all the time. I'm like, I need help with this one. But how I did it, I would skip a lot. I started towards the end when I taught everything twice. Doctrine and Covenants Jesus, my least favorite, cannot stand Doctrine and Covenants Jesus. DCJ can't. He is so vindictive. He is. You will suffer even as I if you don't repent. Are you kidding? So I would reword it or I would just skip it. Because it got to the point where I was like, I can't save this. So I would start saying, you know, I don't really, I don't really think that Jesus sounds like this. Maybe this is a translation issue. Old Testament was rough. It was really, really hard. And I would always chalk it up to history we don't understand. New Testament was fun up until Jesus died. And then I had to clean up Paul's mess.

Guest 2 [01:51:53] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:51:54] Or you know, like Peter and, and things like that, so. And it helped too, that, and maybe this is, maybe it's not the greatest thing to say, but I was young. I was not well versed. Yeah. I knew more than the average rando in my ward. But I liked it that way because then it put me in this. Hey, I don't really know what this means. What do you guys think it means? Well, I don't think it means this. Yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [01:52:20] Rather than like, well, you're indoctrinated.

Laura Schnell [01:52:24] Yeah. I mean, I didn't have years and years of doctrinal. I remember my mentor was like, read the Three Doctrinal New Testament Thingies by Bruce R. McConkie. My godfather, my padrino. And I bought them them, didn't read them. I was like, no, I, I, this is too much. Why? Why?

John Dehlin [01:52:40] And so that's weird because they're, you know, as they're quietly phasing out Mormon doctrine and Bruce Armakkonki from the bookstores, they're still encouraging their CES teachers to, you know, to, to learn and study. Brusamma concert.

Guest 2 [01:52:55] So that's really an old version of Mormonism that was not sustainable. No, that has completely been phased out.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] But it's still ces. It's still Cesar. CS Mormonism. I think, if that's what Mark.

Guest 2 [01:53:07] Okay. I mean, I'll let CS directors talk about it. It's hard to say what. I mean, we'll see how many people like Laura survive. Or if it's all in ten years from now. It's like people living like it's the 1960s, then I'll eat my words. But I feel like it's gonna. Has to start going in this direction for Mormonism to survive. They know that they're just like, hemorrhaging, you know, the youth right now. They're gonna have to reform, so.

Laura Schnell [01:53:32] Oh, yeah. And, and to, you know, to what John's saying too. Yeah. Quotes are very much still alive. No one's like, oh, let's not show that. But to what Kara is saying. Absolutely. We are. I don't Think right now, in 2021, I don't think a person sitting down, learning is told, read this like I was told six years ago. I think it's like, oh, maybe don't read it, but if there's a quote, you can share it. So it's a slow. Like, we can't. Not full on. Like. I remember the Godly Sorrow video. I'm pretty sure that's not in circulation anymore. Absolutely not. It was when I was there or I remember teaching, you know, the. All the family, all the mess with the proclamation. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of. You know, I don't even think when I started, I could have said, being gay is not a sin. Acting on it. I couldn't. That wasn't a thing. It was way later that I was like, guess what? It's not a sin to be gay, but only to act on it. And I was so excited that we got that direction, you know, and so I think slowly, but at the same time, no, it's. It's difficult. It's really difficult. I remember Thomas S. Monson, a quote about anger. Anger is bad. It's negative. And a student came to me. She's like, I want to switch to your class. I can't stand that class. We're talking about how anger is bad. And I don't agree. You know, why. Why are they showing these antiquated things on. On regular, healthy, normal human emotions? So, yeah, it's weird.

Guest 2 [01:55:09] Jesus got angry. Come on. Probably had to teach a whole lesson about that. Flipping tables. Yeah, I flip tables every day after

Laura Schnell [01:55:16] work, just like Chris.

Passed Over for Promotion Due to Gender

John Dehlin [01:55:20] So should we go back to the position? The coordinator position? Is that next? I'm dying to hear what happens. I'm sure they hire you.

Laura Schnell [01:55:27] They did. Yeah. And I am a successful coordinator in a tank top. So.

Guest 2 [01:55:34] Okay, you're here to tell us about your new coordinator.

Laura Schnell [01:55:36] Yeah, it's great. I make so much.

John Dehlin [01:55:39] It's nice they allowed you to come on morbid stories. Really sweet, really progressive.

Guest 2 [01:55:44] Very.

Laura Schnell [01:55:45] So I. We're talking about this. Remember? It's growing. The pizza party that goes sour. But still, the message is, yes, we're growing, growing, growing. Perfect. And I talked to my Timpanogos principal, and he's like, this is such a good idea. You should be the coordinator. Yeah. And he was so on board because that's who he is. And so we're at the Spanish curriculum or at, excuse me, Spanish committee meeting again, and I have to sit across my, you know, arch nemesis, and I just have to Sit there.

John Dehlin [01:56:15] Coconut.

Laura Schnell [01:56:15] Yeah, coconut. And which is so interesting because we had. We had babies at the same time. And the supervisor was trying to make small talk one day and he said, hey, are you teaching your kids Spanish? And I said, yeah, yeah, I'm planning on it. And he's like, what about you? Are you teaching the other Latino? And he was like, no, why would I. Absolutely not. That is a disservice to them. They need to learn English. They're here. Why would I teach them Spanish right after. I said, like, of course. It's very important to me. So anyway, very internalized racism. He's a victim too. We both lose from white supremacy. But anyway, so I'm in this meeting and they're talking about growing. And I look at my principal and he kind of gives me this, like, I got it. I got it from here. And he's like, I had a suggestion. What if we make. What if. What if the coordinator. What if she. And kind of really obviously looks over at me and then my supervisor looks over at me? And he was like, like, oh, yeah, well, we. Obviously Salt Lake needs to give us permission for that. But that. That's a thought. And he, My principal just kept going. He was like, yes, she could grow it. She knows it's a hypothetical she, but

John Dehlin [01:57:26] it's a feminine right pronoun giving you the idea that it might be you.

Laura Schnell [01:57:31] Right, right. Because the supervisor had said he. He was like, yeah, And a supervisor and a coordinator would be perfect because he could.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] Could.

Laura Schnell [01:57:37] And then my principal would say, or she really painfully, obviously, and everyone in the room understood, you know, and he said, we got to talk to Salt Lake about it. And so I thought, well, hopefully, okay, hopefully that doesn't take forever. Fast forward, by the way, that teacher that I got to come back, he got let go from his job. And he, he was talking to me. He's like, hey, I got let go. And now all I have is this part time Spanish teaching job and I want to work full time. And I was like, yeah, you should. You should, you should fight to, you know, fight for yourself. Have them rehire you. You can go through the hiring process again, prove yourself, and then you could teach like me when I was full time.

John Dehlin [01:58:19] All in approval, by the way.

Laura Schnell [01:58:20] He was. Oh, he was teaching them.

John Dehlin [01:58:22] Okay.

Laura Schnell [01:58:22] Just part time. Just part time. And then he got let go. So he was kind of, I need sustainable, you know, I need a full time job. And I said, you should go through the program again and you should get rehired and be like me. When I was full time, where you have the English load with one or two Spanish classes and your full time salary. And he was like, yeah, I need to. Okay. So he's looking for a job. I'm kind of wanting this coordinating position. Fast forward, it's growing slowly, slowly, slowly. Anything about the coordinating? No, this is uncharted ground. We still haven't figured it out. Usually coordinators have been teaching seminary for 10 years or so. This isn't something that we know. And. And I said, well, I know, but the Spanish program is new, so we can't. You know what I mean by that? You know what I'm saying is if it's new, new, new, we just have to keep trying it. It's new. He was saying, coordinators, usually they have time under their belt and they go to a different state. It's hard to just give you a coordinating job. And I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Sure. So I kept waiting and waiting. And then I'm, you know, my principal is microwaving his lunch and. And Mark had just walked out. He was mad about something. You know, he was having such a hard. It was like those months of just turbulence and he had just walked out. I still remember, like it was yesterday. I walked in, I was about to leave principal, you know, warming up his lunch, and he said, hey, did you get the email? And I said, no.

Guest 2 [01:59:50] What email?

Laura Schnell [01:59:50] And he was like, they're gonna, they're gonna have a coordinator. And I was like, really? They decided. And he was like, yeah, they decided to give it to the guy teaching out Provo. He's gonna be the coordinator. And I was like, part time guy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:05] Who wasn't even full status. And I was like, way less experience than you.

Laura Schnell [02:00:08] Oh, yeah. I was like, really? And he was like, yeah, I think it's because you're a mom. And I was like, really? And it was just all very. It all took just. I mean, it was when someone says something to you, but you didn't really hear it because when they said it, everything is shattered kind of inside your head. And I was like, really? So that was devastating. I didn't even get to be interviewed even or talked to or anything or. What?

John Dehlin [02:00:44] You didn't even get to interview?

Laura Schnell [02:00:46] No. And granted, they don't do that in seminary. You don't get interviewed. You don't really apply. You just get moved up. You could request. You could be like, hey, I want to be a coordinator. And they're like, we'll think about it. And then they decide you don't get, you know, it's not like an equal opportunity opportunity job. So I was devastated. And I called. I was in the car and I called my supervisor right away and I said, hey, what? My principal just told me that you had decided that the teacher in Provo, the part time teacher that I got hired at Provo, got the coordinating position. And he was like, no, no, no, no, that's not. And I. And I said, well, he just told me that it was in an email. And he's like, you know, I don't know what email he's talking about. And so I was like, oh, okay. Well, he's just confused then. Principal is just confused, bless him. He's. He's a sweetie and maybe a space cadet. Whatever. I was like. And I felt fine. I was like, okay, good. He's like, like, laura, you will always be kept in the loop. Okay. Of everything. And I was like, please do. I just. And then I played my card. I was like, because if someone's going to be chosen to be a coordinator, I'd love to sit down with this person to train them and make sure they have all the tools. And he was like, absolutely. And I was like. And also I was considering that job myself. And he was like, I understand. Okay. Nothing. This is April. Summer. Summer, summer. I'm with my family celebrating my 30th birthday in California. And I got a text from my friend in Provo at Provo High, the one who I got the job, the one who was teaching part time. And he said, guess what? I just got the coordinating job. And I was like, you did? Yay.

John Dehlin [02:02:32] Excited.

Laura Schnell [02:02:32] Yeah. Blessed. He didn't know. So I was like, I'm so excited for you. And then just. I had a panic attack that night. Actually, it was pretty bad. I was so glad my family. Family was with me. It was really emotionally difficult.

John Dehlin [02:02:45] Just. So people who haven't had a panic attack know that's when you feel like you want to die.

Laura Schnell [02:02:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:50] Right.

Laura Schnell [02:02:50] Exactly. It. Yeah. When you feel stuck. For me, I feel stuck in my head and I feel like I'm going crazy and I can't run away and I'm. My body leaves. You know, it's kind of dissociation. Depersonalization is some of the symptoms that I feel. And it was just, just, just high anxiety, just feeling stabbed in the back, feeling betrayed, feeling lied to. Why did he tell me that? Why did he tell me that? They told him that. Why did he get it? Why did he get it? Why didn't I get it? Is it because he's this. Oh, just a million thoughts. And when you. I was not in the emotional place to just sit down with my thought. It just all came at once. So I gathered myself and school was starting in two weeks. Weeks.

John Dehlin [02:03:34] How many years did you work for CES by this point?

Laura Schnell [02:03:37] At this point, 20. From 2013. At this was 2019.

John Dehlin [02:03:41] So six years.

Laura Schnell [02:03:44] Yeah. So I started, but it was just deflation. I mean, I barely made it to class. I was late all the time. And I feel bad. The students paid the consequence for. I don't know if I was in a rut. Depression. I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [02:04:03] It was just horrible situational depression.

Laura Schnell [02:04:05] Yeah. Yeah. Where I just dragged my feet all the time. And then I had to pretend like I didn't know. So then we get called to the Spanish committee again, meeting with everyone. And the supervisor stands up in front of me and he's like, well, we'd like to announce the new coordinator of the Spanish program. And he stands up and he's like, I just want to say this coordinating position came through revelation. I sat in his classroom and the spirit affirmed that he was to be the coordinator.

John Dehlin [02:04:40] How'd that make you feel? Say it.

Laura Schnell [02:04:44] Like shit. Yeah. Because he had talked to me. I was. Why didn't. First of all, so many things. That's where shelf. I was like, oh, wait a minute. Is God not aware of me? Number one. Number two, why did he give him that prompting? I'm the one who. Wait. I'm the one who knows the program. I'm the one who Don't I deserve it? Selfish. I felt selfish. No, that's your ego. You think you deserve it. You don't deserve it. Jose deserves it. All of them. All of the emotions, you know, you're being selfish. Jose's the one that needs the full time job, not you.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] He's a breadwinner.

Laura Schnell [02:05:19] He's a breadwinner. Can't take this away. Yeah, I'm just a mom. I'm just a mom. That's okay. No, I do deserve it. This is my expertise. How many years does he have of how many years does experience does he have one? I have six.

John Dehlin [02:05:37] You had six times the experience and you got him hired.

Laura Schnell [02:05:41] I got him hired and I got him and all that too. And I'm like, hey, you're here because of me. Just so many. And then I'm like, oh, no, that's vindictive. Just back and forth, humble.

John Dehlin [02:05:50] It's not Christ.

Laura Schnell [02:05:50] Like, it's not Christ. Like, yeah, I'm being selfish.

Guest 2 [02:05:54] Which just begs the question, when normal, you know, sexism is wielded against women who are passed up for positions, is it better if somebody says that it's from revelation? Or is it worse when somebody just says, I straight up don't think you're qualified and they hire a man? Which one's better, I wonder?

John Dehlin [02:06:12] It's always worse when God is.

Guest 2 [02:06:14] It's always worse than you can, you can, you can like, you can literally psych yourself up. I'm guessing to be like, okay, I prayed about it. And then you will find your own confirmation bias to be like, oh, now I'm right with the decision where if God wasn't involved, then you can actually rebel against the system a little bit more because that makes you complacent then because you're like, oh, you, you speak for God over me on my behalf. So maybe you have a better connection with God than I do. And I think a lot of women in the church. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [02:06:41] Sense?

Laura Schnell [02:06:41] Oh, yeah.

Guest 2 [02:06:42] So a lot of women in the church.

John Dehlin [02:06:42] Is that how it worked?

Guest 2 [02:06:44] I'm. I'm just. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:06:45] No, that's a good, that's a good question.

Guest 2 [02:06:46] Were you okay with it in the end whatsoever?

John Dehlin [02:06:49] Because God said it.

Laura Schnell [02:06:50] Honestly, amazing that you bring that up. Because in my psyche, my psyche was incredibly. My spirituality and the psychology of my spirituality was just a me. I was like, I can't fight against God. It's revelation. I just have to accept it. And then I would wake up and say, well, I know general authorities are wrong sometimes. Could supervisors be wrong sometimes? No. No. He said he felt the spirit and he got teary eyed, which always adds the extra. If you feel the spirit with tears that might be pulled to Henry Island.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] He pulled a Henry Island.

Laura Schnell [02:07:27] Yeah. So I just.

John Dehlin [02:07:30] Tears don't lie.

Laura Schnell [02:07:31] Yeah, right. And so I just, just. Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting question. I, I love it and hate it because I'm like, did it make it better or worse? I think, I think it made me feel better at the time. I'm like, it was God, Fine. God makes the executive decision.

John Dehlin [02:07:47] But then you were depressed.

Guest 2 [02:07:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] So that's called, that's called suppression of emotion, right? Yeah, I think.

Laura Schnell [02:07:56] Yeah. Yeah. Because then I just fought with myself all the time.

John Dehlin [02:07:59] And you're really.

Laura Schnell [02:08:00] Yeah. And I came home and my husband is so mad at poor victim Jose. You know, he's like, I'm so mad at him. And I'm like, what? He doesn't know? And my husband's argument was like, yes. He should have checked. He should have had common sense to think of the woman who was behind all this. And I was like, maybe so.

John Dehlin [02:08:22] And you hired.

Guest 2 [02:08:22] You.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] You did the favor of getting him hired.

Laura Schnell [02:08:24] So, like, yeah. And so. And I hope. I mean, I don't know if he'll listen to this, but the system's not

John Dehlin [02:08:31] people, so it's not Jose's fault.

Laura Schnell [02:08:33] No, it's not. And I never. I literally never was bitter against him. I really wasn't. I didn't let myself. Because he wasn't in the know of anything. Could he have asked? Could he have thought, yeah, sure, it still hurts. Yeah. So the fact that my principal blatantly said, I think it's because you're a

John Dehlin [02:08:53] mom,

Laura Schnell [02:08:56] made me feel like, okay, well, there's. There's maybe something behind this. It got confusing when the revelation was into play, but I thought, well, is this considered sexual discrimination? We had. We have trainings on it every year where we have to watch cheesy videos like. Like, Martha walks in and David tells Compliments her skirt is this. I mean, and there are. There are like an hour long. And you get emails. The church sends emails to your principal if you haven't completed it. And I used to always regret, you know, dreading talk.

John Dehlin [02:09:30] To talk.

Laura Schnell [02:09:31] Yeah. And so I said, you know what? I learned this in my training and I think I'm going to. And of course, I'm just, you know, internally vomiting because I'm like, I'm going to raise a discrimination case against God. I'm just like, oh, man, is that what I need to do? I prayed about it. I talked to my family about it. What's interesting is, and I don't know if maybe Kara or. Or John, you would want to. I don't know. When men hear that story, they tend to be like, oh, when women hear that story, they are absolutely enraged. I have never seen women go from 0 to 100. That are my friends when I tell them. And then they did this, and then they told me this because I was a mom. It's just. Just rage every single time. It's not like men aren't mad. They're just more like confused. Like, oh, that's. That doesn't add up. That's not logical. Women are just angry.

John Dehlin [02:10:26] Did you flip.

Laura Schnell [02:10:26] Flip the mental table?

Guest 2 [02:10:28] Did you flip people mentally, you know, doing this job? All the mental tables are right up here.

John Dehlin [02:10:34] All.

Guest 2 [02:10:34] They're all flipped upside down.

John Dehlin [02:10:35] There's no tables unflipped left. Yep.

Discrimination, Resignation, and Aftermath

Guest 2 [02:10:38] I'm off to water bottles and Laptops.

John Dehlin [02:10:42] Point your third shoe.

Guest 2 [02:10:43] It's more because the reason this table is still as stable as it is right now is because it's not surprising. I'm like, of course they are completely aloof to sexism and all of those things. And it's coming from people who can watch probably those discrimination type videos and then still go tell you to have lots of sex with your husband and shave your arms.

Laura Schnell [02:11:04] Like.

Guest 2 [02:11:05] Like even the people that are your superiors, like, things don't get through their head because this is a wildly patriarchal church to begin with.

Laura Schnell [02:11:12] So, yeah.

Guest 2 [02:11:14] Oh, the table cares back. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:17] So I'm disgusted, too.

Laura Schnell [02:11:19] Well, yeah, thank you. But. And which is like a normal response.

John Dehlin [02:11:23] I feel sick to my stomach.

Laura Schnell [02:11:24] But, yeah, so I. I go with it. And thank you. Thank you. That's very kind and empathetic. It sucked. It sucked a lot.

Guest 2 [02:11:34] I will say John de Lynn's a better feminist than I am or ever have been or ever will be. He tell to stand up for myself way more. I love that he's a good ally.

Laura Schnell [02:11:44] That's great. So I decided to go with it. Meaning I call hr. Yeah, no, never call. Remember, I'm too scared. I email. And she. She's like, okay, let's talk on the phone. I explain everything that happened. And she was like, this absolutely sounds suspicious. Let's do this. What I'm going to do is I'm going to send two HR representatives. I can't be on your case technically, because I'm your HR rep. We're split like the Alphabet. She's like, I can't be, because I'm technically your Europe. So. So she calls me and tells me all this and I'm ready. And she's like, in a month, we'll send some people out. They will. You. You can tell them where you want them to go. If it's a church building, if it's a seminary building. And I'm like, nope, nope, they can come to my house. So they come to my house. I asked my husband to be there with me because I'm so intimidated and so sick that I'm pinning, you know, HR on my own superiors. I feel scared. And so I'm. I do it. I tell them everything. And they say, okay, this is October. I talk to my really good friends about it. I only talked to three best friends about it, Mark included. And I mean, they're just rooting for me. Just so kind. Yes, do it. You can do it. They come, they collect everything, and they say, we're going to now Hold a private investigation. Which I'm like, but how. How is that private? If you go to someone, we need to interview you about a recent hire of a court that's. I mean, mean, you might as well say my name. But whatever. I understand what they're saying. So they are, you know, talking to me, asking me questions, details, how I felt, you know, what I said, what they said everything, writing everything down. It was like two and a half hours. And then they pull out a non. What is it? Nondisclosure agreement and NDA. And they're like, okay, if we need to move forward with our investigation, you need to sign this. And I was like, okay, what does this mean? And they said, well, if you are blaming someone who you work for or with, and they want to retaliate, we want to protect you, you are protected from retaliation. Right? Like, you have that right. But if you don't sign this, meaning you can tell whoever, meaning I could go to a court or a lawyer, then we cannot protect you. So you have to sign this, and you. This cannot leave this room. And I. I'm so. I was so innocent, naive maybe. I was like, can I still tell my best friends? They're like, no, you cannot talk to anybody about it except your immediate family ever. So, yeah, they're. They're like, as long as you're working. So. On podcast, on podcasts with John de Lynn and Kara. So I did, and I called my friends and I said, I can't talk to you about this anymore. Mark was devastated. My other friends were like, okay, we understand. Like, this is so sad. Mark was like, they're trying to silence you. And he. And, you know, how was.

Guest 2 [02:15:06] Was Mark? Did he lost his faith at this point, though?

Laura Schnell [02:15:09] I guess. Yeah. And he had quit, too.

Guest 2 [02:15:12] Okay, so this is Post. All of that. This is post. He's the Mark. Those one that we know and love now.

Laura Schnell [02:15:16] Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Guest 2 [02:15:18] We go on flip on fire. Yeah, we go on table flipping binges. Me and Mark.

Laura Schnell [02:15:21] Sometimes you have to.

Guest 2 [02:15:23] Mark's the greatest.

John Dehlin [02:15:24] So this is two years ago?

Laura Schnell [02:15:26] Yeah, two years ago.

John Dehlin [02:15:27] 2019. Right?

Laura Schnell [02:15:28] 2019. Yeah. So not. Don't talk. Don't say anything. Okay, fine, I'll do it. I signed it. I want to be protected. I get a weird call, like, you know, in the middle of Thanksgiving break, I was in Texas visiting my family, and it's the HR lady, and she's like, hey, we're in the middle of your investigation. I just need to ask you a question about your teaching. And I was like, okay, yeah, go ahead. Did you. Were you good at preparing lessons? And I was like, yeah, I think so. Did you. Were you ever behind or did you keep to the curriculum or did you skip lessons sometimes? Not. Not all the time. She's like, okay, just wanted to know. Bye. And I was like, this is so weird.

John Dehlin [02:16:25] So they're fishing for things to.

Laura Schnell [02:16:27] I have no idea. Yeah, something. But I just. That was so weird. There was no context, nothing. And I get it.

John Dehlin [02:16:33] It.

Laura Schnell [02:16:34] Private investigation. So she's. Oh. And before hanging up, she's like, okay, we. We should have the results in about a couple, two weeks.

John Dehlin [02:16:42] Really quick. Had you ever had. You know, Mark talked about his evaluations. Had you ever had either a negative evaluation or had those sorts of things ever come up in any evaluation of you as a criticism?

Laura Schnell [02:16:58] Yeah, just because even if it wasn't an evaluation, it was. The principal would come in and see the scripture block and be like, why are you three blocks behind? That was the only time. And of course, I would always chalk it up. And I would tell him, honestly, I'm like, I just feel so much anxiety about preparing a new lesson every other day. It's really hard for me to keep up. And I kind of take my time with this one. And I like to talk to the kids more than I should, and I just have a hard time with motivation. I have a hard time with procrastination. Honestly, it's a lot. It's a lot to handle. And every other Semin teacher can do it. Mark, do it. Everyone could do it. For some reason, I was just the weakling that couldn't. It was way too much for me. The whole time, or just towards the end?

John Dehlin [02:17:41] Towards the end. After you had the kid?

Laura Schnell [02:17:45] Especially after I had.

John Dehlin [02:17:46] So was there some postpartum depression, maybe?

Laura Schnell [02:17:48] Postpartum anxiety? Definitely. But I already, you know, I was dealing with anxiety, but it was definitely more so after, you know, and I'm

Guest 2 [02:17:58] sorry, I thought, is this obvious, or am I dumb? That you're skipping lessons because you were doing the Spanish classes? Right. And that, like, you're taking it on a complete. You're kind of on a different.

Laura Schnell [02:18:10] Yes.

Guest 2 [02:18:10] Road. Right.

Laura Schnell [02:18:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:18:12] I mean, I want to call it cultural competence. You know, in the. In the mental health field, you adapt your therapy for the client and their cultural needs.

Laura Schnell [02:18:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:20] I would almost say. I don't want to just jump to your defense, but. But in my mind, you were adapting the curriculum for the needs, the culture. You're being culturally sensitive to the needs of your students.

Laura Schnell [02:18:33] Yeah. Maybe that's What I was trying to do now being.

John Dehlin [02:18:36] We could frame that as like not keeping up and. Sure, but.

Laura Schnell [02:18:40] And there were times where I definitely walked in under so much anxiety that I didn't have the lesson planned, that I was like, I don't know what I'm going to teach about today. I'm so anxious. I. I procrastinated and now I can't. And I stayed up all night because my baby and you know, excuses for. Are excuses. Doesn't matter. Excuses, whatever. Yeah. And someone may be listening is like, well, it's your fault for being a slacker. Sure, that's fine. But what did that have to do with my discrimination, though? You know, I don't. So.

John Dehlin [02:19:10] So I only had one year experience.

Laura Schnell [02:19:12] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [02:19:13] Job.

Laura Schnell [02:19:13] Right.

John Dehlin [02:19:14] It's hard to imagine him, I don't

Laura Schnell [02:19:16] know, being ready, never skipping a lesson. Yeah, but he probably didn't. Honestly, he was very. Yeah. And again, I am not trying to defend myself in any way with lesson prep and skipping and all that. And yes, I was trying to be sensitive. Thank you, Kara, for bringing that up. I was with the Spanish classes. I literally would say, this is way over their heads. No, I'm not going to teach this. But anyway, so that was the question. She said, we have. We will have a result in two weeks. So, of course, just two weeks of horror as I'm just waiting and waiting and then acting normal, acting completely normal at work, just being like, you know, hi. And in my head I'm like, I think they interviewed you and they interviewed you and you know, so fast forward two weeks is here. She's like, hey, we have a. We have a conclusion. And by the way, before they asked me, they said, if, if this is, if we, if they are found guilty, what would you. What's your compensation? What? You know. And I said, well, they're asking you

John Dehlin [02:20:22] to be your lawyer and say what you want.

Laura Schnell [02:20:25] Yeah. And that's weird. I was like, I literally was like, to be paid for something that I could have done.

John Dehlin [02:20:34] Maybe not to get the job.

Laura Schnell [02:20:36] No, no, I. I did not want to take that job away from him. I made that very clear. Because she said that. She's like, well, do you want to be the coordinator now? And I said, no, it's too late now. But I still think it's wrong and I still think I should speak up about it to you. And she's like, then what do you want instead? And I said, compensation. Okay, then make it. I don't know. I had no idea what to say. That's the first thing that came to my mind.

John Dehlin [02:21:00] Yeah. So, weird thing.

Laura Schnell [02:21:01] Slap on the wrists. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] The weird thing to ask you.

Laura Schnell [02:21:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:05] My opinion.

Laura Schnell [02:21:05] Yeah. So anyway, results are in. Come to my house again. I call Michael again. I'm really nervous. And she was like, okay, well, we talked to our lawyers. We interviewed everybody. By the way, every woman interviewed says that they loved you so much. They. They just speak so highly of you. You are so, so highly regarded. Love bombing in the seminary system.

John Dehlin [02:21:31] You just got. Love bombing.

Laura Schnell [02:21:33] Yeah. And I was like, thanks. Of course. I mean, what am I? I'm not a monster. Of course they do. Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:21:43] I quadrupled the program.

Laura Schnell [02:21:46] Yeah. Just.

John Dehlin [02:21:47] I'm a legend.

Laura Schnell [02:21:49] I should have said that I'm a legend, but I was just like, thank you. I know. I love them, too. I really. I really did. And she said, okay, well. Well, after much, much research and much investigation, and after speaking to our church lawyers. Martin McConkie, by the way. Oh, Curtin Merton. Curtain, curtain.

John Dehlin [02:22:09] Curtin McConkey.

Laura Schnell [02:22:10] Oh, there you go. Curtin McConkie.

Guest 2 [02:22:12] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [02:22:12] Thank you. We have decided that there was no discrimination at all in your case. And I was like, really? And my husband. I just looked down the whole time because I didn't know what to do or say. I just said, really? And then looked down. And my husband was. Was really mad. And he is a quiet introvert who lives in his beautiful mind. He is just not, you know, big, boisterous. He doesn't yell his opinion, but I had never heard him just speak up. So, I mean, he looked at her and at the guy with her, and he said, so you're telling me that patriarchy wins again? And she was like, what do you mean? And he was done talking. He was like, I can't believe it. And she was like, like, laura, I think what happened was a misunderstanding. And I was like, okay, tell me, in what way? And she said, well, you know, I, I, I. We interviewed everybody. The statement about you being a mother, he did not remember saying that. And I said, okay, so are you saying I made it up? And she's like, no, absolutely not. I'm just saying you must have heard perhaps something else, because he didn't say. He said that. He doesn't remember saying that. And so I just said, okay, well, what about the coordinating position? I still didn't get it under why? Why? And she said, well, the thing is, in seminary, you know, there is no such thing as being interviewed for a position. You just are given the position. So really, there was no Competition. But there was a set of rules. There was a set of qualifications that you needed in order to become a coordinator that you weren't made aware of. And I said, can I know what those are? She absolutely. Rule number one, you must be a native Spanish speaker. Rule number two, you must be temple worthy. Rule number three, you must be an excellent teacher of the word of God and of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Okay. And she's like, and there are two more. And one of them was, I don't know, something. Something administrative that I had experienced. Oh, and the last one was experience, experience in seminary. And I was like, that's. I have all of them. And she was like, you know, I'm remembering what you shared about the spiritual experience. There's something we have to understand about revelation is that sometimes we don't understand it. And I just. I had to cut her off. I was way too triggered and way too emotional and way too angry and way too devastated. And I said, I'm. I apologize. This is going to come off so rude. I do not care about your opinion on revelation. I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] What was she saying by revelation?

Laura Schnell [02:24:50] She was saying, sometimes we don't understand revelation, how it works that this job.

John Dehlin [02:24:55] That this job assignment was not an administrative or bureaucratic decision, but she was basically saying that this other man was called by God into this employment position. Is that. Is that. Am I hearing you right?

Laura Schnell [02:25:09] Yeah. She said that. Because after I said, well, I have all those qualifications, she's like, well, remember, we can't take away that your supervisor had a spiritual experience. And so I was like, this is hopeless. And so at that point, that was the justification. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:27] Yeah, God did it.

Laura Schnell [02:25:29] Yep. And I was like, okay. And she was like, we're sorry, but you know what? We're so proud of you for doing this and for. I am a woman working in the church, and I know all I realize and I understand the difficulty. And, And I. I'm proud of you for speaking out regardless. Even if. If this wasn't discrimination or an injustice.

Guest 2 [02:25:53] But also. Shut up.

Laura Schnell [02:25:57] Discrimination? She's a woman.

Guest 2 [02:25:59] Yeah. A lot of people, I don't know, maybe it's a tokenized thing or whatever. When systems at large put people that sometimes that they are overbearing, whether it's women or people of color, it seems like that people who can benefit from the system, like she just explained, I benefit as a woman from the system. And I'm seeing you thrown under the bus from it. So instead of standing up for you, I am gonna go Back to siding with my, I don't know, the oppressor, whatever. I'm gonna go back and siding with the one that keeps me employed, obviously. What else was she really going to say? Right.

Laura Schnell [02:26:42] She's not going to be like, I'm against this decision.

Guest 2 [02:26:44] Yeah, she's served completely by the system that she might be benefiting from in the short term, but long term, from being a woman or whatever other systems that we're trying to make more healthy in the long run is probably. Is not the smartest idea. That's just my take on that part of the story, at least.

Laura Schnell [02:27:04] Oh, yeah, I think you're spot on. And she did share. She's like, I'm a convert, and I've been a convert for 30 years, and I have seen the big boys club, and I know how this goes. And she's like, I'm totally with you, but I want you to understand that what happened to you isn't what you think, isn't how you're perceiving it. So she was trying to make me feel like she was on my side, that she got it, that she was a woman, but she was like, but it's okay. You can let it go. You know, it's all right.

Guest 2 [02:27:33] Because I think any change technically that's ever happened in the church has come from people saying, the church saying, this is revelation. This is our forwarded dogma. And then enough people on the outside or underneath that are being served by that system from external pressure or from beneath standing up and saying, I don't think that's actually revelation. I'm actually going to push back against that. And so I'm glad you're coming on. And how having stories like this of, like, quite honestly, I'm going to push back against your revelation, because I can see some instances where this might not have been coming from, you know, God and the creator of the universe. And, like, whether people who listen to this are active in the church or not, like, would you agree that it's. It's fair to say that, like, revelation is. If it is forwarding harmful, sexist ideas needs to be challenged, even if you are Mormon, like, we need to have some checks and balances about revelation going unchallenged.

Laura Schnell [02:28:31] I entirely agree. It needs to be, and it would be great. And this is where people who are still active and still in and so committed there. It would be great if you were like, if you question the revelation, not in. Did you really receive it? Not in that way where you're maybe gaslighting someone like, no, you didn't. But in a way where it's like, hey, what were you? What questions were you seeking? What decisions were you trying to get to? Why did this revelation come about? What does it mean for this person? What does it mean for you? Right question. Revelation doesn't mean that now I'm doubting you. I just want to understand. Give me an understanding of what happened. Why did you come to this conclusion? Don't just say revelation and expect me to go with it.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] It.

Guest 2 [02:29:16] There's so much context that goes with your revelation. Could be a million different. We all are products of our conditioning in our environments. And that's the discussion we're having now is about this patriarchal system. Probably I don't want to completely discount every revelation or this person's revelation, but we're going to guess here that the conditioning of who made that decision is influenced by the patriarchy that they are forwarding. And so it's, it's different layers that need to be analyzed. And so questioning. Yeah, like you said, doesn't mean necessarily doubting every single time. I want to give a good faith interpretation to people trying to do their best with the limited amount of knowledge, but then also acknowledging that people are still products of, of what conditioned them to make the decisions and taking everything in its proper context is like, I hope what Mormons are kind of getting from that story. Like, please, I don't know.

Laura Schnell [02:30:10] No, I appreciate that, though.

John Dehlin [02:30:13] I mean, yes, and I appreciate that, Kara. And I'm going to just vent and just say I'm frustrated because it seems like in the modern era, well, there's blame reversal where if something goes wrong, it's always the member's fault. But I want to add to Luna, Lindsay Corbin's kind of 31 tools of undue influence influence. Kind of God blaming. Like any time in the Mormon Church these days when there's a real problem like polygamy, like polyandry, or like the racist teachings of past general authorities or the, you know, the restoration of the priesthood, whatever it is. It's like God, well, God did it. And so if God did it, it's. You get a pass. And that's frustrating because number one, it makes God a jerk. It makes God kind of an ass. And number two, it's a cop out. And like you said, Kara, it's not reflecting on your biases. It should be forgiven. I'm of the position that claiming you speak for God should be made illegal because it's too much power for anyone to have nuclear weapons. Need to be controlled. Claiming to speak for God needs to be forbidden because it's just a trump card that leaves anyone who feels like they've been wronged, you know, without any power. And it gives way too much power to leaders. They can basically do whatever they want because God. Oh, I got that warm, fuzzy feeling. And God said, it's okay. So I'm enraged that an employment decision was blamed. An unjust, discriminatory employment decision was blamed on God. And I don't even necessarily know if I believe in God. And I'm still angry that God gets blamed for a bad decision. Decision.

Laura Schnell [02:31:57] Yeah, yeah. And it's the lazy way out, like you were saying. And something that I. I forgot to. To mention that I told her when she was trying to lecture me on revelation. And then I cut her off and I said, look, maybe that was revelation. Maybe God did want that, you know, but the way that it was executed was not right. And she didn't say anything. She was like, okay, okay, you know, what was there to say? So anyway, and I quit right then and there. And my husband didn't have any idea. I felt bad. I was like, well, and because of this, this is why I'm quitting seminary. And he just looked at me and I was like, yep. She was like, oh, no, that's terrible. I'm so sorry. They're gonna really miss you. And I was like, well, oops, what did I just do? But I think it was. Honestly, it was a knee jerk reaction.

John Dehlin [02:32:50] Was he still working?

Laura Schnell [02:32:52] He was.

John Dehlin [02:32:52] The car wash or whatever.

Laura Schnell [02:32:53] No, the lab.

John Dehlin [02:32:55] At the photo lab.

Laura Schnell [02:32:56] The photo lab.

John Dehlin [02:32:57] There's a Jim Croce reference.

Laura Schnell [02:32:59] Oh, okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:00] So anyway, so your family needed that income, but you quit. Yep, I quit on the spot.

Laura Schnell [02:33:07] On the spot? Yeah. I told my principal. He was really sad and I was sad, but I couldn't go back to my word. I was like, I did quit on the record, so. And I wanted to. I was tired. I was ready.

John Dehlin [02:33:21] And believe me, they wanted you to because that's too much trouble. You're a troublesome woman at that point.

Guest 2 [02:33:26] Yeah. I've been waiting to ask this question for like two hours. Oh, which is women of color are the most likely to push back in the workplace and that they get hired the least amount. Have you heard this? Like that, that's, that's. I'm just curious if. Did you feel any kind of like, responsibility, quote unquote, when you were in seminary, that you would normally have spoken up for yourself? You have the religious conditioning to a be Quiet as a woman, and then representing people of color that in the system that hires so few that you're like, I don't want to, like, sour the. The system against people that like me. That future women coming along, they are going to be less likely because all they see is, you know, more trouble on their plate. They're gonna go with, like, you know, Brother Beckett, who is, you know, the tall, white, handsome dude who. He doesn't push back. He is a submissive woman.

Laura Schnell [02:34:25] He's right.

Guest 2 [02:34:26] Or a submissive woman. Was that. Was. I. I don't want to project whatsoever. So was that in your mind of things where you were consistently kind of, like, muzzled on overtime?

Laura Schnell [02:34:38] Yes, because I not only didn't want to be a bad example from, you know, from childhood, I was like, I have to be a good example in all things. But also, I had students that I think the church meant a lot, and also the church employing a brown person meant a lot. And it was kind of like, whoa. Like, Sister Chanel teaches seminary for us. And I. I didn't want to ever be like, no, they discriminate, you know, I. I never wanted to say anything that might kill that dream of. Yeah, no, you could. You could be a 70 teacher like me one day. It'll be great. I didn't want to. I didn't want to mess that up.

Guest 2 [02:35:18] But even if that's, like, technically, you could probably have some better, like, opportunities actually don't. But I don't want you to think that you can't achieve your dreams.

Laura Schnell [02:35:26] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:35:27] But, like, this system's not made for us. I'm like, sorry. Maybe come back in 20 years.

Laura Schnell [02:35:31] Yep. 50. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, after I quit, I did change. I was way more vocal. Personally, I'm like, yeah, good luck being a woman. Good luck being of color. And if you make it good, good for you. You know, I'm trying not to be.

John Dehlin [02:35:47] You probably wouldn't recommend it, though.

Laura Schnell [02:35:49] No, no.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] As a woman of color in the CES system.

Laura Schnell [02:35:55] No. No, I would not recommend it. You? Yeah. Nope. Don't do it. And if you're going to just be ready, be ready for a lot of hurdles. And that's not to say don't do it if you don't like hard things, but mentally and emotionally, it will push on all kinds of things, and it will trigger all kinds of things from childhood, from religiosity. It will. It will do all kinds of things to you.

John Dehlin [02:36:24] Was it mentally unhealthy for you?

Laura Schnell [02:36:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:36:27] How so?

Laura Schnell [02:36:28] The. I mean, the anxiety I mentioned the pressure to be this perfect teacher, to be. To have a perfect testimony of the brethren, to not question the pressure. Also to be a teacher who was relatable at the same time, who was faithful at the same time, who was with the times, but also not too progressive, but just this pressure.

John Dehlin [02:36:51] And not too popular. Not too popular, but not too successful.

Laura Schnell [02:36:53] Yeah. Yeah. Just to keep and to separate church and life was really hard for me. I would come home and not want to. I would be kind of triggered on Sundays, like, if I saw scriptures, I'm like, ugh, nope, that's work. Scriptures was all about work and sitting down at an office that was cold because the men controlled the AC and feeling. So it really messed with my mental health in that regard because I found myself questioning the church way too much, much as an active seminary teacher. And I didn't let myself. And by questioning, I mean, no one knew except me. You know, it's not like I was investigating nothing. And that was way too much to handle. Way too much anxiety.

John Dehlin [02:37:32] Did you consider getting an employment attorney and suing the church before or after you quit?

Laura Schnell [02:37:38] I did. I did consider it mildly, though. It wasn't. I felt so depleted of energy that I thought.

Guest 2 [02:37:46] Thought,

Laura Schnell [02:37:48] is it worth my energy and time? And. And then I'd have days where. Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, we don't really have money, so maybe.

John Dehlin [02:37:56] To hire a lawyer.

Laura Schnell [02:37:56] Yeah, to hire a lawyer. Someone did tell me, though, one of my best friends, her husband's a lawyer and he had a. His friend had an employment lawyer at byu. And I. I wrote, I emailed him and I said, this is what happened. And he said, oh, I'm so sorry that happened. You could file a complaint with the Utah employee something or the other. But he said, but be warned that this is a church organization meaning employment sni, seminaries and institutes. So this is technically a ministerial position. So the church does have the right to discriminate. So just know that. And I was like, okay, I'm not going to waste my time.

John Dehlin [02:38:39] Yeah. Because Mormons control the Utah state legislature, so they can craft the employment law law in Utah to protect the church. 12 Ways to Literal Sunday.

Laura Schnell [02:38:47] Yep. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:49] Yeah. So you're gonna lose.

Laura Schnell [02:38:51] Yeah. So I didn't. After. After he emailed me that, I decided no.

Guest 2 [02:38:56] So that's kind of an interesting lesson for anyone who could be considering getting into, like, teaching seminary or the program is like, just so you know, before you go through any of this training, the church has the right to discriminate like, they've made that pretty clear.

Laura Schnell [02:39:09] Yeah. Even though we have discrimination videos and trainings, you can still be discriminated against. You better have a pretty solid case. And even then, it doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [02:39:21] It doesn't matter because they craft the law. I mean, literally, the church crafts Utah.

Laura Schnell [02:39:27] That's. Yeah, that's actually pretty terrible.

Guest 2 [02:39:31] Yeah. So unless, actually, what about, like, other institutes and different. I guess there's institute buildings all over the world. Right. How would that work? Do they still. I mean, you could have.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] That's state law. That's different.

Guest 2 [02:39:43] That's what I'm asking, though. It's like. Like if you're discriminated in an institute building in Idaho or.

John Dehlin [02:39:49] I'm wondering, get good lawyers. Church has good lawyers.

Guest 2 [02:39:51] The church has good lawyers, regardless. You're right. They have more money than God.

John Dehlin [02:39:57] Yeah, they do. So. So you decide to resign, and you resign, and you didn't pursue legal action. And how did it. How did things kind of end?

Laura Schnell [02:40:11] Well, I. I didn't want to pursue legal action again, like I said, I thought about it. I chose not to. But I did feel like I couldn't quit without having a word with all the men involved, so. And. And that's something that's not normal for me. I'm not.

John Dehlin [02:40:29] Not.

Laura Schnell [02:40:29] I don't like for them. For them, yeah, probably. Yeah. I don't like confrontation, but I just. I felt very strongly that I needed to around that time. It's also important to note for me and for me personally, around that time, I had been really thinking about. And I really. I. I'm really not into ancestral work or anything or wasn't at that time, but I kept feeling the kind of. The presence or the feeling. I didn't see anything or I just felt the presence of an ancestor. And so I called my father in Colombia. He's a big genealogy man, big time. Does it all the time, probably a couple hours a day, every day. And so I called him and I said, hey, I. I sense. I keep sensing an ancestor. Maybe you can give me a name. She's. I. I feel that she's black. That's the feeling I'm getting, that she's a black ancestor. I knew I had African in me. I have indigenous African and European. And he said, okay, well, you know, we have, yeah, great, great grandmas and this and that. And then he said, actually, we have the first one that came here from Africa. We don't have anything. We just have a name. Her name is on a piece of paper, but we know she Was enslaved. And I thought, okay, I think that. I think that's what I keep feeling. It was just, you know, it was my mind a lot. It's just the forefront of my mind. An ancestor who I could connect with somehow. I was just feeling really down and depressed and anxious and questioning everything. And so I finally decided to talk to these men, and I kind of felt, you know, I kind of looked to inspiration to. I kind of looked to this ancestor, you know, this powerful, who was enslaved, who suffered at the hands of the horrors of slavery right. In Colombia in the 1600s, 1700s. So the first. My first victim. Just kidding. The first person I wanted to talk to was my principal, Timpanogos. Again, he's the one that said the comment, it's because you're. It's because you're a mom. And I wanted to talk to him.

John Dehlin [02:42:55] Denied that he said that.

Laura Schnell [02:42:56] Who denied that he said it. Yeah. And he. He is such a. He's a beautiful person, honestly, because he sat down with me and he was so humbled. And he said, you know, I woke up the following morning after he was interviewed by the hr, and he said that he felt so much sorrow and sadness. And he said, I. I deeply hurt Laura. I deeply, deeply hurt her. And so he was really grateful that I wanted to talk to him one on one. And he apologized. And he.

John Dehlin [02:43:33] For what?

Laura Schnell [02:43:35] He just. He's like, I'm so sorry because. And I said that. I said, I know. And it was this awkward, like, I know you were interviewed and I know you're the one, but I can't say it out out loud vibe. You know, it was weird. But he said, you know, I think I might have remembered saying that. And he said, even if I didn't remember, if I said it, it hurt you. And he's like, that's the point of the matter. And he's like, if I didn't remember, it doesn't mean it didn't hurt you. I did say it. You heard something and it hurt you. And kind of admitted that was his point. Yeah, that was his point. Point is, he's like, I'm so sorry that I caused so much pain.

John Dehlin [02:44:18] That make it better or worse?

Laura Schnell [02:44:21] I think it made it better between he and I. It didn't make the situation better, but it. I wanted to leave kind of in peace with everyone. And I know I. I knew I couldn't if I didn't speak to them face to face and tell them how much I was hurting, I don't know why I felt the need to do that, but I. I needed to maybe closure for myself.

John Dehlin [02:44:40] So it just reminds me of Mark Ozland's interview. The guy that had lied and lied about Mark because he was jealous.

Laura Schnell [02:44:46] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:47] And then tells him apologizing for the lies that he told to get him in trouble. Just. Is there a culture. Is there a problem with the culture of dishonesty a little bit in the CES program? I don't expect you to answer that.

Laura Schnell [02:45:01] But I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:45:02] It's eerily similar to what Mark.

Laura Schnell [02:45:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:05] Said happened to him.

Laura Schnell [02:45:06] Yeah. Yeah. And it's. You know, it's so hard again, because I really love this person, and I know he cared about me and loved me too. And so I think it was just kind of this. What we're willing to. When we're willing. Were we unwilling, I guess, to take responsibility? And I think he realized that. He's like, I was interviewed about this, and suddenly I say, say, I don't remember. And I don't know. I can't speak for him. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I just appreciate that he felt the need to say sorry to me. And maybe some would say, well, those are crumbs. You're settling for crumbs. But I'm like, I. I was out of there anyway, so I talked to him. It went well. We're in a good place. It's still hard for me to remember his comment and remember everything and remember that he forgot that he made that comment. But, you know, what can I do? What's in my power anymore? So then next was the guy who got my job, and his was a little different because HR had told me that no one knew about anything. No one knew about a coordination. A coordinating position, meaning neither he or. Or I nor I. He said, the lady said, just remember in seminary, we don't interview people. We just. They're just called. Just give it to them. So I talked to him, and I said, can I ask you something? Did you know? And he was like, of course they called me. They said they were considering me for a coordinating position. And I was like, okay, so another lie I was told. No one had talked to you? And he was like, really? But I could tell he didn't really believe me. I just had a sense that he was kind of like. Because I was quitting, and I was bitter and I was angry. So I think me bringing all that up, I think he was like, okay. But he was respectful. And I said, I want you to know I. I think you Deserve this job. And I think you're gonna do a great job, and I'm really proud of you. Well, I don't know. I didn't. I didn't want him to. I don't know. I was genuine. I really was happy for him because I wanted to quit.

Guest 2 [02:47:15] Quit.

Laura Schnell [02:47:15] I was done with seminary, emotionally, and I think I realized that at the moment. So, yeah, and he took it. It was uncomfortable. But he again told me, he's like, you're the. This program doesn't exist without you. And so I said, okay, thank you. There's nothing to say anymore. I appreciate you. Take care. Then I called my supervisor, the. Probably the. I don't want to say the worst one, as in the worst person, but the one who did the worst, who said he was going to call me but didn't, who had a spiritual revelation and then had me in the room. And. And then who lied and him. I texted him and I said, hey, I'd like to talk to you now. He didn't know about what I. For all he knew, it could have been about quitting. He didn't know anything. He was a supervisor in his office, was clearing Orem.

Guest 2 [02:48:17] Can we talk?

Laura Schnell [02:48:18] Yeah. When do you want to come in? How about tomorrow at 1? And I thought, okay, this is going to be the hardest one, because he's the head. I mean, he's over Utah, parts of Arizona and Nevada. So I said, I. I'm on my way. So I show up to his office, and the HR rep is there. And I was like, hi. Is she staying here? And he's like, yes, she should stay here for our conversation. And that was really weird. I felt really ambushed. I was like, what is going on here? Did you have a suspicion I was going to come talk to you about something that you felt guilty about? So you called her. I mean, why was she there? So she tells me. She's like, come sit down. We will have this conversation, the three of us. And I said, okay, well, I have nothing to say to you, but I have everything to say to him. So I guess you could sit here and listen. And she said, yeah, it's my job to make sure he doesn't. Or you don't say anything that might. Something of something legal of something. And so I said, sure. All right. And I told him, I said, I just want you to know I feel betrayed, and this is a really difficult conversation for me. I care about you. I think you're wonderful, but I feel betrayed. I've done so much for the Spanish program. I'VE given six years to seminary. You always treated me well. You. You valued me. And then I felt like you didn't take me into consideration, that you didn't. You didn't value my work. Me as a person, I feel like I'm less than. And I feel. I just feel betrayed and hurt. And that's all I wanted to tell you. Thanks for listening. And he just looked at me and said, we're so grateful for you. And that's it. And at that moment, I thought everything was going to crumble. I just was so worked up emotionally, of course.

John Dehlin [02:50:18] On the outside, how'd that make you feel, that response?

Laura Schnell [02:50:20] Oh, completely. That he was so. On another planet, completely not in tune with a human in front of him, saying, I feel hurt by your actions. And that he couldn't say, I'm so sorry because that might incriminate him. And that. No, that he worried more about himself.

John Dehlin [02:50:37] And the institution.

Laura Schnell [02:50:38] And the institution, yeah. At that moment, though, I felt that ancestor come up again really vividly. My grandmother Juana, who was enslaved, just very strongly. And again, it felt so strong. But it was more of a. You're powerful, too, Lord. You're powerful. Because at that moment, I felt like the size of an ant in this man's office. But after he said that, we're so grateful for you, I said, is that all you have to say? And he said, yep. We will miss you greatly, Sister Schnell. I said, thanks. Thank you for your time. And I left. And that's it. I left. That was. That was the end. I felt the need to talk to Coconut man, but I don't think my feelings with him are of hurt and animosity, and I just wasn't in the right place. And. Yeah, I left that one alone.

John Dehlin [02:51:34] Did they give you severance? No. Because you quit, right?

Laura Schnell [02:51:36] Yeah. No. Nope.

John Dehlin [02:51:38] That was your career you'd given six years to.

Laura Schnell [02:51:41] Yeah. Yeah. And my soul and Spanish program, just all the energy. I. I did so much work on.

John Dehlin [02:51:48] On.

Laura Schnell [02:51:48] Along with the kids, you know, But I would go to the wards and talk to parents. I would text parents all hours of the night about their kids and visit their wards and the bishops and just a lot. And I'm not. You know, it's not like I was owed anything, but maybe an apology would have been nice, but I'm. I'm at peace that he didn't apologize because it tells me that he's traumatized and a victim, and he can't even realize when someone's in pain in front of him. So

John Dehlin [02:52:19] have you even had the ability or desire to kind of keep up with the program to see how it's done since you left?

Laura Schnell [02:52:26] I've been curious. Yeah. Some people have moved up on the scale. Like the man who chastised me. I guess he's now. I think teaching institute may be a big deal. Moving up again when you. When you defend orthodoxy. Yeah. You move up. Yeah. And it feeds that. Right. And. But no, not really. I haven't really wanted to.

John Dehlin [02:52:54] Painful, maybe.

Laura Schnell [02:52:55] Yeah, yeah. Very, very painful. But students keep in touch with almost all of them, so that's been healing.

John Dehlin [02:53:03] That's great.

Laura Schnell [02:53:04] Yeah. Yeah. That's the healing part of it is that.

Guest 2 [02:53:07] That.

Laura Schnell [02:53:07] That was the work that I did. That was the one that mattered, and those friendships and relationships are the ones that matter to me. So there's the ones that stayed.

Guest 2 [02:53:16] So.

John Dehlin [02:53:17] So maybe to wrap up this part two, and maybe we'll do a part three about your faith. If a woman, or a woman of color or a person of color is thinking about joining the CES program and. Or in Utah County. I mean, I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I think you've already told us what your advice might be.

Laura Schnell [02:53:40] Yeah. And, you know, who am I to tell you what to do or not do? Right? You do what your heart tells you to do. Just for whatever. Whatever it takes. Don't betray yourself. That's what I would say. Don't betray who you are, where you come from. Just don't betray yourself for the name of anything.

John Dehlin [02:53:59] So, Mic drop. What do you think, Kara? Mm.

Guest 2 [02:54:07] Yeah, a lot of us. I mean, I didn't. I'll start that over. I would say that it's stories like this that make me really appreciate that the Church sharpens a lot of good swords for righteousness and standing up for truth and doing the right thing. But going back to the. The orthodoxy and empathy thing, the Church is just not always in favor of when people use that sword to cut against them. And it's the people that are. That they kind of trained in the system, it sounds like, that are often just marginalized and pushed out to feed back into the, like, the. The orthodoxy pyramid. So I think the Church is losing a lot of really good people like you that are so empathetic to the needs and the honestly, the mission of Jesus Christ to begin with. For the things that you tried to do in the seminary program, it sounds like. So, yeah. Again, hope this gets back to headquarters.

Laura Schnell [02:55:12] That's nice. Thank you.

Guest 2 [02:55:13] Yeah, it sounds like you had a really a good, beautiful teaching career, though, and what you're able to accomplish.

Laura Schnell [02:55:20] Yeah, thank you. I did a good run. It was so good for me and my growth. And they gave me way more than I could give them, though, that's for sure. That's kind of how I take it.

Guest 2 [02:55:31] Yeah, I can sense that.

Laura Schnell [02:55:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:55:34] And I'll just say Mormon Church, because I know you care about what I think and listen and respond accordingly. If you want to stop losing your young people, stop getting rid of the Lorchnells and the Mark Oslins in your seminary program and actually promote them them if you want a chance at keeping your youth, which you're hemorrhaging at the rate of like 80% plus. So that's my little free tip. You're welcome. So this ends part two of our interview with Laura Schnell. And we're going to do a part three, because I want its own segment to be how, you know, a seminary institute teacher, woman of color, loses her faith in the Mormon Church after. After being a lifelong devout Mormon and also after teaching in the CES program for six or seven years. So come right back. Don't miss it. And you're going to love part three, where we understand how and what it was that led to Laura's faith journey and where she is now. So thanks so much. Thanks again, Kara. You're awesome. It's great to have you.

Guest 2 [02:56:39] Yep. Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:56:40] John and Laura, thanks so much.

Laura Schnell [02:56:41] Yeah, thank you. All right.

Beginning of a Faith Crisis After Leaving CES

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1475

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part three of my interview with Laura Schnell, former CES teacher instructor in Utah County. We've done two episodes with Laura. One was about her upbringing as a member of the church, born in Colombia, immigrated to the United States, just her life as a Colombian immigrant, Mormon, woman of color. And that was an epic and important part one. Part two was all about her experience teaching seminary for the Mormon Church, church education system into Utah County. And as a friend of Mark Osland, who is also on Mormon Stories, just a couple months ago, shout out to Mark. And we ended part two with Laura deciding to no longer work for the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. And if you want to hear that full story and you haven't listened to, go listen to part one, then listen to part two. And now we're starting part three, which is basically asking the question, how does this 30 something, lifelong, orthodox, devout Latina Mormon woman who was as committed and as orthodox and as devout as they come, and who taught for the CES system for six years, how in the world could she ever kind of start to question her faith? What would lead to that? And then, you know, where has that faith journey taken her? And so, Laura, welcome back to Mormon Stories for part three.

Laura Schnell [00:01:19] Thank you, Mark.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Got three parts. You gotta get three parts right.

Laura Schnell [00:01:22] All right. He told me I would too. I was like, I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] He knows me better than me.

Laura Schnell [00:01:27] He does, yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] All right, well, shout out. Love you, Mark and Cara. Cara Burrell, thanks for joining us.

Guest 3 [00:01:34] Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to spend the day with you guys.

Laura Schnell [00:01:37] I am, too.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] Yeah. And it's great to have you, Kara. You do great work for us. And thanks for being my co host. All right, so, Laura, how did you get to the point of having a faith crisis when you had such a devout, stalwart faith and you were teaching for the CES Church. Church education system for the Mormon Church for six years. How in the world take us through that journey, man?

Laura Schnell [00:02:00] That's.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Where did it start?

Laura Schnell [00:02:02] Where did it start?

John Dehlin [00:02:02] You can go back if you want with cracks and then.

Laura Schnell [00:02:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teaching seminary. You know, you're so into it that you have to be blind. Sometimes you have to choose to be blind.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] It's a job requirement.

Laura Schnell [00:02:17] It's a job requirement. Yeah, yeah. But sometimes things come up that you're just like, I don't know. I can't put my finger on this. Like I mentioned in, in my last segment, general authorities are wrong sometimes. That was something I could comfortably sit on as, you know, as kind of a more nuanced seminary teacher.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] And for those who didn't hear the first couple episodes, some examples in your mind would have been, what?

Laura Schnell [00:02:46] Well, the. The 2015 policy. Okay. And then suddenly it's reversed. So, no, that was wrong.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] The LGBTQ exclusion.

Laura Schnell [00:02:58] Exclusion policy. Yeah. I. I honestly can think of a lot of examples. One that I shared in class one day was about how you. The only way to have true joy is through the covenant of marriage. And I said, I don't. Is that true? And. And, of course, this is an edgy class. I could do this with this class. But that was another one. Another was a conference talk that the kids didn't really like. I can't remember what it was, and I didn't either. I think it was by Elder Oaks, actually. And again, I said, you know, you guys, he. He could be wrong. And that's okay. That doesn't make him not a seer or an apostle. He. He's just a human being. So I was kind of approaching it from that end. So that was little things here and there, but nothing really major. The one thing that did start twisting was I was in the middle of all the anxiety with trying to get lessons prepped, and I would talk to my friend Mark a lot because he was just a trusted coworker, and he was also becoming such a close friend. And I could. I didn't feel ashamed to say, hey, I'm behind about 30 chapters. Could you send me a couple lessons? And absolutely. It was no hesitation for him. And he started sending me these lessons later on at the end of his career. That was so, you know, inclusive and equity and kind of edgy. And I was like, I like this. What is this?

John Dehlin [00:04:31] Like, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?

Laura Schnell [00:04:33] Yeah. I was not gonna show Queer Eye, but I did play Tupac in class, I will say. And it was. It went very well, but, you know, little things like that. And he sent this quote, let's see if I actually have it right here. And I wondered what. And I said, where did you get this? And it says, it's by Father Greg Boyle. And he says, we seek to tell each person this truth. They are exactly what God had in mind when God made them. And then we watch from this privileged place as people inhabit this truth. Nothing is the same again. No bullet can pierce this. No prison walls can keep this out. And death can't touch it. It's. It is just that huge.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] And again, this is not a Mormon quote.

Laura Schnell [00:05:17] Not a Mormon quote.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Be Your best you.

Laura Schnell [00:05:21] No, no, no. God did not have you in mind, really. And see, that's what it was. Exactly. I said, wait. And it felt so good and true. And this is talking about gang members in Los Angeles. So I said, what is this book? And he said, oh, Tattoos on the Heart. And I got my hands on it. And if that is the number one, if people say, when did you start questioning seriously? I said, when I read Tattoos on the Heart, I recommend it to every human being. Mark makes fun of me. He's like, okay, now it's like your scriptures. I'm like, yeah, it's the best scriptures to have. Because I mean, and my perception of God has changed dramatically. But at that time I saw this all inclusive, all wildly loving, just accepting God, who just doesn't anxious about his children and their choices and who. I mean, Father Greg would say something like, God can get tiny if we're not careful. We make God fit in this tiny box. When God is so expansive, we judge others at how they carry, you know, difficult things. And so I was like, why don't I feel this here? And that's the questions that started scaring me. That those are the questions that started scaring me is I was like, I've never heard a talk make me feel like this. It's always God loves you, but God loves you. And remember because do this. And. And I was like, I literally can't think of one talk that's just God loves you, period. The only time I remember hearing that was when Ronald Rasband, he came into my ward. He was just stopping by and he was like, I just want to say that God loves you. And he left. He was like in between stakes or something. The only time, and it wasn't even a general, it was a ward. And that started to bother me, but I was still in seminary and I would shake those off and I would say, that's okay, that's just different. Well, it's not. This is a Jesuit priest in the Catholic Church. How come he can say that to gang members, to people who commit real crimes, not people who cup each other's hands and feel guilty, you know what I'm saying? I thought why? How? It just bothered me. It kept puzzling me. Why don't I feel like this? I would read things about this book and what he would say about God and gang members and an intrinsic worth and love and just free flowing love all the time. No one's disappointed in you. Don't twist yourself like a pretzel to become what? And I was like, I'm not finding this here. In my current religion. When I say here, I mean in Mormonism. And that started really bugging me. Things with the discrimination case and everything, that didn't. Honestly, it didn't do much except super disappoint me. It's not like that caused a crack that definitely. I feel like maybe it was easier after being out of seminary. That's about all that did.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] But Julie. I think it was Julie Diaz of it, or Hanks, who recently made a point that being offended is actually a legitimate reason to hold something against something else. Like, if an institution is unjust, that's decent grounds upon which to judge the institution. So I guess I'm just saying that, you know, there's always a stereotype that an ex Mormon leaves because they're offended. And if Mormon's story stands for anything, it's rejecting that stereotype because that's not why people leave, generally speaking. Or if ever, at least not the people I interview. And having said all that, like, if the church, the corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints treats you in a profoundly discriminatory way, isn't that. I would guess that's fair grounds for questioning the church? I don't know.

Laura Schnell [00:09:11] I would say so. I didn't let myself, but I would say so. I think under any normal circumstance, I would have.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] But that wasn't a big crack for you?

Laura Schnell [00:09:20] Inexplicably, no. It was a crack with patriarchy and with. Systems are off here. There's power imbalance, but not with testimony, not with brethren, not with temple, not with. No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] You were able to compartmentalize?

Laura Schnell [00:09:33] I did, yeah. That was my way to sanity. Okay, so just put it in a corner. This happened here. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Okay.

Laura Schnell [00:09:42] Yeah. Anyway, I read that book and then

John Dehlin [00:09:47] I. Tattoos on the heart.

Laura Schnell [00:09:48] Yep. Tattoos on the heart. Then I quit seminary. And then. And before I had quit, my husband has. Had been kind of. After the baby was born, our daughter, he would stay home with her more often than not on Sundays. He would say, you go to church, I'll stay. And I panicked. I was like, no, a priesthood holder needs to lead in the home. And we wouldn't read scriptures. And I was like, can we please have couples prayer, please? And it was kind of like dragging feet a little bit. And I felt. So I was like, okay, we need to talk about this. Come to find out, I quit seminary and I start kind of being vocal about, like, have you thought about. And he was like, I've Been thinking about this for a long time. I just was married to a seminary teacher, so I couldn't, you know, and I feel so bad that so many times I made him feel like spiritually inferior. And I did. I remember having these conversations like, you need to lead us with your priesthood. You need to come on. Like, I'm the leader right now and you need to. Weird thing, but I think after quitting is when I, I finally let go of that need to compartmentalize, to make everything make sense. And so I finally started thinking a little bit and, and saying, okay, I think in Mormonism God has to be conditional. That's what I think. That's what I'm feeling. And you know, the, the best and worst part about my faith journey is that very few things are logical. Like some things really are where I'm just like, okay, that doesn't add up. Come on. Like money to get to the celestial kingdom, but like paying tithing. But other things are deeply emotional where I just don't feel settled. I started to feel less settled. I started to going to church and hearing talks about conditional. And I'm coming from this book and these spiritual experiences of God, be free. Free flowing, love accepts me. You know, God, you are exactly what God had in mind when he made you. This is where I'm coming from and I'm meeting it with. The Lord needs us to be righteous servants and we need to serve faithfully. And we in talks at church and lessons. And I just became kind of like not turned off just where you, you kind of, you, you avoid it emotionally. I started avoiding it a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. But I was still pretty tight with. That's okay though, because God is still here for me. Jesus, still my savior, the apostles and the brethren. So it wasn't until I stopped wearing my garments. Oh, that was the big one.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] How'd that happen?

Laura Schnell [00:12:37] That honestly, I started questioning not the temple, not my covenants, but my reasons for everything. Suddenly I asked myself, why do I do this? And I had asked myself before, I've taught lessons on, you know, the moral agency and, and the gift of choice. And you choose. We choose God and we choose the Lord and we choose our covenants. And then it started hitting me. Wait, who did I choose that? Or is it because that's all I knew growing up. The temple, that's all I'd been given growing up. I was never given. Or you know, you could just not go to the temple and get married outside the temple. No it was, you go to the temple and you get sealed. So then I started working backwards from my garments. So I asked myself, why do I wear garments? And so I started following that train of thought. This is all by myself too. Because sometimes if I talk to people, they were already so experienced with. With this conversation. So they would be like, of course, because garments are, you know, oppressive, and they represent. And I'm like, oh, I'm not there yet. And then other people who are in are like, I know sometimes they're uncomfortable, but they remind us. But so I was like, I'm gonna have this conversation with myself. So I just wanted to talk to myself about it, which was a big deal. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Yourself. Permission to be your own authority.

Laura Schnell [00:14:06] Yeah, that's the biggest deal for me, especially growing up, wanting my patriarchal blessing to list everything.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Tell me what to do.

Laura Schnell [00:14:14] Yeah, tell me what to do to think I'm obedient. I'm obedient. I'm so obedient. So that was the first thing I said, okay, until I figure out why I wear garments for my own of myself, I will not put them back on. And I still believed. I still pay tithing. I still, you know, had a testimony of the church, of the restoration, testimony of Joseph Smith, for sure. But I didn't wear my garments. I took them off.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Was also. They were uncomfortable and embarrassing.

Guest 3 [00:14:40] No.

Laura Schnell [00:14:41] Nope. I loved them. Yes. Yep. Freaky. I know.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] This is cool.

Laura Schnell [00:14:46] Yeah. And that's why. That's why I decided to take that step. It wasn't my out. Like, good, now I can take them off. It was like, I'm gonna take them off to see how I function, and I'm gonna question myself, and I'm gonna ask myself why I do it. And until I don't have a good enough answer, I'm not putting them back on the problem. Or maybe the good thing with that was then everything. I was like, why do I pay tithing? And so we stopped paying tithing. And I asked my husband, I said, should we start paying tithing? He was like, yeah, I wanted to stop pain tithing a long time ago and every little thing. Joseph Smith was probably the last Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is still really. It's just tied up with so much emotion and so much family and so much. My mom is faithful. That one's very hard for me. But anyway, that's kind of. I don't know. Is that what. In a nutshell, kind of.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] So you. You started. You basically said, you're going to Stop doing things. You don't really have a clear understanding as to why you're doing them intrinsically. And it was just like a set of dominoes.

Laura Schnell [00:15:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] It was garments and then tithing and then, I guess, eventually church attendance.

Laura Schnell [00:16:03] Yeah. And Covid made it easy. Honestly, that was another. I think that was the perfect storm. Covid. I was like, well, we can't. I remember getting the text, church is canceled. And I just felt relief. I was like. And then I was like, whoa. Why do I feel relieved? This is not me. Not me at all. You know?

Guest 3 [00:16:23] Please leave a comment. If you also felt unrestrained. I bet so many people felt like that.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] But it was you. You say it's. It was. This is not me, but it absolutely was you. It was your inner voice.

Laura Schnell [00:16:34] It was my inner voice. It wasn't Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] And your husband's, by the way.

Laura Schnell [00:16:38] Oh, yeah. Oh, he. I mean, he'd been. And that's something he told me. And my husband and I don't talk a lot about the church. He's. He wants to be more respectful than not every time. He just chooses the safer side. A lot of deconstruction still for both of us, you know? But he did say one day, because I told him, I said, I just don't know what to do. I felt like this pull, like, do I. Is this leaving the church? This is what I'm doing. Is this what. And he said, hey, just remember, your whole life, you've been told to listen to a voice other than your own. And I remember when he said that, I was like, whoa, why'd you say that? And he's like, well, because that's been my experience. So I was finally, I guess, listening to myself. But that's scary. That's really terrifying because I've been conditioned to question that, because that's unrighteous. Maybe that's temptation. Maybe that's the adversary. Why would I want to take off my garments? But seeing as it didn't come from rebellion and that, I didn't think they were uncomfortable and all that, I think I just went with myself. I was like, yeah, I'm just. I'm going to do this, and I'm going to keep questioning.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] And it sounds like. Because what we almost always hear these days is. And then I. I found an episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Or then someone told me about the CES letter, and it's this intellectual domino of like, well, then it was the Peepstone in the hat, and then it was the polygamy, and then it was the you know, the Kirtland banking scandal, and then it was the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon and historicity and anachronisms. But for you, you're saying it was literally just coming to the realization that you had been living someone else's life for you and had not been listening to your own voice. And you started listening to your own voice.

Laura Schnell [00:18:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] And your internal voice said, what?

Laura Schnell [00:18:38] My internal voice said, why don't you do things you want to do?

John Dehlin [00:18:43] And that sounds so anti Mormon and selfish. Like, I think the Book of Mormon even says, like, woe unto him who says, eat, drink and be merry or whatever. Like, I don't need you, God, or.

Laura Schnell [00:18:53] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] And Mormon ears feel like that sounds very selfish.

Laura Schnell [00:18:57] It does. And I did feel selfish. And it was a lot of back and forth, and I was clinging onto the givens because they're so smart and they can make it work.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Talk about that.

Laura Schnell [00:19:06] I listened to them in person, you know.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Did they train you like they did Mark?

Laura Schnell [00:19:12] Yeah, that he described. I was sitting next to him during

John Dehlin [00:19:17] that at the Terrell and Fiona Given.

Laura Schnell [00:19:18] Fiona Givens, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] And what did you think about their training?

Laura Schnell [00:19:21] Phenomenal. Amazing. Just they. The way Terrell and Fiona, I mean, she is just this genius, and she's just like, oh, yeah, you know, God, I think it's important to put value in friendships, not just family and things like that. That you're like, oh. And then he would just say big things. Like, somebody said, well, Elder Cook said that people are, you know, not leaving and that people are coming back. And he would just refute it. He was like, well, that was probably based on antiquated data. And I'm like, whoa. So just really smart people who are really faithful. So I kind of clung. I'm like, okay, I can. I can still be faithful and not wear garments. Maybe I can still be faithful and, like, be intellectual, but really smart. But I'm not that smart, is what I would tell myself. I'm not as smart as Terrell. And yet he stays. What does he see? And Mark and I, I mean, we have scrolls and scrolls of texts because we deconstructed similarly. He was. He was a lot more willing to listen to himself. I was a lot more like, but no, I. But what if I'm wrong? And he. I remember him telling me, he's like, look, man, it has nothing to do with smart. Smart does not mean smart in the way you think. And I just couldn't fit it in my head. How could someone brilliant not see these inconsistencies and these even emotional inconsistencies. Like, you really feel okay with God being conditional? Really? And an all loving God, you feel okay with that? I didn't feel okay with it anymore. And so I had to learn to trust not only in my inner voice, but in my inner, just like you said, my authority. I don't want to because I don't feel like it. I don't need to have some sort of defense and intellectual written thing. That was hard for me.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Yeah. And I think the answer is in your story, like, why was it that your husband had kind of lost his belief but you had maintained it and you weren't willing or able to question it until when? Until you weren't employed by the church anymore? This famous Upton Sinclair quote that I've quoted several times in Mormon stories. It's impossible to get a man to see a point of view when his livelihood depends on not seeing it. Why do Terrell and Fiona Givens maintain their belief? It's got to be at least somewhat tied to their employment with the church and their reputation in the church and their pensions with the church. Now that's not it. There could be other things because there are employees of the church that don't believe anymore and they just stay because it's their job. And there are people of just super high integrity that lose their faith while they're employees and they leave as a matter of conscience. But how can we not if you weren't willing to really open up and ask these questions of yourself until you weren't employed anymore and your husband was already there because he wasn't employed? You know, that has to be the explanation for a lot of these BYU professors, a lot of these apologists. It's literally their job, their livelihood, their pension, their reputation.

Laura Schnell [00:22:26] Yeah, no, it's so true. And for me, it was way more than okay, this is my livelihood. It was, I believed that I needed to be completely in to work. Well, I mean, we get ecclesiastical endorsements as seminary teachers. And so I wasn't going to lie to a bishop. And so I knew, no, I'm not questioning. And it's not like I lied to myself. I wasn't questioning. I did have some little things, but I was not questioning. But then when I was free, wait, I don't have to answer to a bishop. Then I let myself.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] And to be generous with the givens, or at least to say something positive, I have a really close friend who's been interviewed on Mormon stories who also worked for ces and he once told me he Likes the fact that the Givens are there because they rep, that what they provide is a soft landing. Because somebody who's questioning it may be too big of a jump to just say, I'm leaving the church. But Givens Mormonism provides that soft landing on the way out of Mormonism, and it sounds like it was, you know, that's a main value that they offer to tens of thousands of Mormons. And it sounds like that's what they meant to you. Yeah, you were a soft cushion on the way out.

Laura Schnell [00:23:44] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Tattoos on the heart was. I was like, okay, I don't have to believe in that, but I can believe in this. And so. And smart people that Eugene England, he had this amazing article that I clung to forever about how the church is just as true as the gospel about community and beautiful things. And anyway, but for me, another big part was the repercussions all pointed to the reasons for me, and that was interesting. So my best friend that I told you about from Arizona, that I asked her about the Book of Mormon on her first day of school, she told me she had stepped away from the church. It was during the discrimination case. And I didn't know that. I had no idea. This is, I mean, homegrown Arizona Mormon girl. And it had been three years, and she was so scared to tell me. So scared. And those things started lining up for me. You know, my. My poor mom. She saw me and she asked me if I was going to work out. And I said no. Why? She's like, oh, well, you're not wearing garments. I was like, oh, yeah, I'm just not wearing them right now. And she was not happy. And I started pointing that to the church. I was like, that's why I was like, of course. Of course you think this way. You have no choice but to think this way. Of course you thought I was going to judge you for leaving the church because that's what we're taught to do. That's. Because that's what I've done in the past. I know people are like, no, I've never been taught that. That's not true. We're taught to love, and yes, that's true. But we don't know what we ingest when we're sitting in thousands and countless of Sunday school lessons and seminary lessons and talk. That's just.

Guest 3 [00:25:29] I.

Laura Schnell [00:25:31] When people left the church, in my opinion, they were offended and bitter and they were not faithful enough. I can't pinpoint what talk that was. I can't pinpoint. When I learned that. That was just what I grew up with.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] The water you were swimming in.

Laura Schnell [00:25:47] Yeah. Yeah. So things started happening where I just kept pointing back to the church. I was like, oh, that's why they. That's why my mom's reacting that way.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] She started noticing the undue influence and conditioning. Yeah, that was because of their reactions around you.

Laura Schnell [00:26:03] Yeah, because of their reactions. I was like, wait, I'm your daughter, though, and it's taken a while, and I have. I've been. I'm really lucky. My parents are incredibly loving. Where my dad asked me, he said, do you believe in the scriptures anymore? And I said, not literally. And he said, but how can you still be a good person? How? He's like, I would be a terrible person without the church. And I was like, dad, that's sad. Zero.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] I told you that, dad.

Laura Schnell [00:26:31] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] The church that told you that.

Laura Schnell [00:26:35] And of course he would say no, because he did. He experienced. He left the church for a little bit. You know, kind of the teenage. I'm going to drink and do all kinds of things and then. And then come back and, okay, now I'm settled. But that's not the journey I'm on. I'm like, dad, I'm not here to. I'm not 17. I'm not on this wild, wild west journey.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] I'm a rum Springer.

Laura Schnell [00:26:56] Yeah, this is different. And at the end of our conversation, he said, you know, I get the feeling that with or without the church, you're still an incredible person. So I hold onto that. That doesn't.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Go, dad.

Laura Schnell [00:27:09] Yeah, go, dad. He's amazing. And that's not to say there aren't difficulties in our relationship and things that are hard and sadness, a lot of sadness and grief. But for the most part, I think whenever there's an adverse reaction, I point it back to the church. It makes perfect sense. Why would my mom really be that sad about me not wearing garments? It's cloth, and I'm her daughter. She's devastated. Oh. And so I start doing that with everything, and it's. I don't know. That's my emotional way of understanding what's happening.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] And I just can't not mention. The most alarming thing I heard in all this was the fact that your husband had lost his beliefs but was afraid to tell his own wife. When a. When a spouse is uncomfortable being honest with their own spouse, the person that they are married to and have kids with and love the most. If any organization makes a spouse afraid to tell their spouse the truth, that should be the in my view, the biggest red flag of all.

Laura Schnell [00:28:15] Yeah. Yep. And later on, and now in hindsight, I'm like, of course you were afraid. You probably thought I was going to want to leave you or something, because

John Dehlin [00:28:24] it happens every day.

Laura Schnell [00:28:25] Yeah. And so then I started, you know, quote unquote, blaming. Like, that's why I blame the church on that. And it's hard. It's hard not to sound like that all the time. You know, I blame the church, but what other reason is there? I can't think of one. So.

Intellectual Deconstruction of Church Truth Claims

John Dehlin [00:28:46] So was there ever that accompanying intellectual deconstruction with Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, polygamy, you know, peep stones in the hat, DNA, all that stuff, Lamanite stuff, racism, sexism, homophobia. Was there ever any of that?

Laura Schnell [00:29:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Are you not there yet?

Laura Schnell [00:29:08] No, no, there. There has been. I'm not there yet fully with Joseph Smith things.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] So he might still be a prophet to you?

Laura Schnell [00:29:15] No, he's not a prophet. No, I just. I just haven't dug into the. All of the. You don't want to go there intricacies. I don't know if I'm ready yet.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] Too sacred?

Laura Schnell [00:29:25] No, too disturbing, I think. Yeah, I think I'm too. It's almost like, okay. I always compare it to finding out you're being cheated on and someone's like, well, do you want to know how and with who and what hotel? And I'm like, nope, don't show me. I just already know I've been lied to. So part of me is like that with Joseph Smith. Now, of course, the argument to that is, no, but the more you find out intellectually, you know, you can be more at peace intellectually.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] But.

Laura Schnell [00:29:53] But we'll see. We'll see when I get there. But yeah, definitely with queer. With queer people. Regarding my students feeling like they are absolutely whole and beautiful and perfect and realizing, oh, wait, the nuclear family, that's just a social construct and that's a very American thing, a very American value, with the nuclear family, with the church. And of course, the family's important everywhere. I mean, Latinos are big to family. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying. But that as being propped up in the proclamation.

Guest 3 [00:30:25] And.

Laura Schnell [00:30:26] And I have done that. And I'm like, nah, that doesn't add up. It makes. It makes zero, zero sense and all the sense in the world as to why you would make queer people feel the way they do with race. That one was the first one that was the easiest for me to just. I'm out with that. Just.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] Let's start at the Book of Mormon. Racism.

Laura Schnell [00:30:51] I just.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] Have you processed that?

Guest 3 [00:30:52] I.

Laura Schnell [00:30:53] Honestly, for me, it's been that Joseph Smith, of course, he was a product of his time. And of course he. You know, I think he. What is that word where you. It's fantastical. Where it's like, oh, and. And Indians and this. And exoticized. Yeah, yeah. Exoticized. Yeah. Um, and so it's easier for me now, before it wasn't, but for me to deconstruct that and say, of course it's. It's his history. It's. He. He really did believe that the Lamanites needed to be humbled because they had forgotten. So they need. Now, here comes the tribe of Ephraim missionaries and bring them back. And. And we have the Book of Mormon that tells us that you were cursed because that's why you're brown. See? And so that. That was hard emotionally, but easy. It kind of made. It made sense to me. I'm like, of course race and the priesthood is another one.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] So in your mind, were there golden plates? Were there Nephites and Lamanites? Is the Book of Mormon a history of ancient Native Americans?

Laura Schnell [00:32:02] I don't think so. I don't think the Book of Mormon was a history of ancient Native Americans. I read the gospel topic essays a lot, but then the fact that people are steering away from, oh, among the descendants, or no longer the descendants of the Lamanites. Who are the Lamanites? It doesn't make sense. Yeah. Who are the Lamanites? And I really. I have an easier time without really digging in to say they're just part of the story that Joseph Smith had, you know, And I'm at peace with. I'm at peace with people finding peace with the Book of Mormon. And with that not being true, what

John Dehlin [00:32:40] about the argument the Book of Mormon is too amazing. Joseph could have never written such an amazing book.

Laura Schnell [00:32:48] I think Harry Potter is pretty amazing. I don't know. I just think.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] But he's uneducated. Farm boy, 12 years old. Whatever.

Guest 3 [00:32:56] Way home.

Laura Schnell [00:32:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Guest 3 [00:32:59] There's a Book of Mormon evidence conference coming up that my mom told me to go to, so apparently the archaeology is rock solid. No pun intended.

Laura Schnell [00:33:05] Okay. Rock solid.

Guest 3 [00:33:07] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [00:33:07] I. I haven't taken the time to really. I. I know in my gut, or I feel I should say in my gut, that this was someone with good intentions who was really good at writing things. And he had. He telling stories, he had helpers, you know, he had people. It's not like he wrote. This isn't journal, you know, this is something that was put together. And who's to say it didn't bring inspiration to some, you know, I don't think he wrote it. I don't think it's real life historical.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] You don't think he wrote it?

Laura Schnell [00:33:44] Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's what I mean. I don't think he translated. But then I'm like, well, I don't think it was an actual historical. Yeah. Historical record. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] Studied book of Abraham at all yet?

Laura Schnell [00:33:54] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] How about the peeps?

Guest 3 [00:33:55] He doesn't want to know. The receipts.

Laura Schnell [00:33:56] I don't want to know. I don't want to see. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] Starting the hat.

Laura Schnell [00:34:02] That one we learned in seminary. So I had less of a. I was inoculated, so it was less creepy for me to. To read about it. I was just like, oh, yeah, the hat. Now I just. I understand it, you know, with the occult and that was kind of the culture back then. So it doesn't.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] He was just doing occulty things.

Laura Schnell [00:34:22] Yeah, he was just doing occulty things. And that's what people did. And that's how.

Guest 3 [00:34:26] I'm curious, is there certain things when you are teaching seminary where your students would push back, whether it's like the LGBT policy or women in the priesthood that you mentioned? Is there anything else that you've come around to be where you remember? You're like, oh, I gave them kind of a canned answer from the church.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] Or that you regret. Or that you regret.

Guest 3 [00:34:46] Yeah, yeah. That you were like, actually 16 year old, you know, girl. She totally was on. And I was. I. I was wrong. Are there certain times where you're like, oh, they had it right, I had it wrong.

Laura Schnell [00:34:57] Yes. And the one that can. I can think of which. It just makes me cringe is polygamy. I was dead set. I was like, no, but look. And it's because my mentor gave me such a good layout for it. I was like, oh, yeah?

John Dehlin [00:35:12] What was your justification?

Laura Schnell [00:35:15] Bring up seed. Also. All things must be restored. Joseph Smith needed to restore all things. The ancients, the ancient patriarchs practiced polygamy. So of course, Joseph Smith had to restore it too. What a convenient thing to restore.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] So anyway, he didn't restore animal sacrifice.

Laura Schnell [00:35:32] Right. And so. And also viewing Brigham Young as an amazing colonizer. This was back before I thought Ringam Young was just putrid, but, you know, back then I was like, oh, no, he's. Yeah, yeah. Because they were just ravished and Nauvoo and lost. And of course they needed to Raise up seed. And so that made sense. So in seminary, I'm teaching polygamy. And this poor girl, I love her so much. I still have her face in my head. She's like, sister Chanel, that's just. That's so gross to me. Why would God make. Why would God make this a commandment for these young girls? Because we were talking about the essay which meant that Joseph Smith could have slept with the young 14 year old. And I was like, well, but remember, it was of God. And Joseph didn't want to do it. He didn't want to, but he had to. And she was just like, I don't know. And I'm like, no, no, listen. Sometimes we do difficult things, like how Abraham wanted to kill his son. Normal. And I was just like, you know, And I remember the bell rang and she looked at me and she was like, it doesn't make sense. And she left. And I wish I could tell her, hey, never. No, I was wrong.

Guest 3 [00:36:50] I was just. That'd be funny if there was like a superior in the hallway. We were like, yeah, Laura, keep talking more about that. You're going. You're losing popularity with the kids, right?

Laura Schnell [00:37:00] It's not good.

Guest 3 [00:37:01] Yeah, good. You're coming down to our ranks. Keep talking about really problematic subjects, like,

Laura Schnell [00:37:06] you're losing the kids so bad.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] Sometimes God makes you have sex with 14 year old girls. Sometimes that's what God does. That's just how it works.

Laura Schnell [00:37:14] But I didn't. I refused. I was like, no, we don't know if he slept with her. He just had to marry her because it was a commandment. And that's why. She was like, but how do we know if he didn't? And I'm like, we hope that he didn't. It was a mess.

Guest 3 [00:37:29] I'm like so dark.

Laura Schnell [00:37:31] Sorry I'm laughing, but man, no, think about it, seriously. This is just.

Guest 3 [00:37:36] It always comes back to the nature of God for me, of like, you're still trying to foster this relationship with these kids, maker in their minds. And you're like, exactly. Technically, God can tell you to marry somebody one day that you don't want to marry. Like you're. It's setting up the super unhealthy dynamic.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] God super powerful, and he can't figure out a better way than to take an angel. Send an angel. Of all the things God could send an angel with the flaming sword to do, it's to make Joseph have sex with the 14 year old.

Guest 3 [00:38:02] It's unfortunate. And the. I don't know if you Guys know the. The truth behind the polygamy to raise up seed logic. I actually heard, as John, have you heard this as well, that the numbers actually don't work out, that monogamy produces more children than polygamy does per, you know, woman. Per woman in. Especially in like, the Utah territory at the time. So if God wanted to, he could have just like been making cool quadruplets and twins, pumping kids out. He could have done it better than taking away the autonomy of women.

John Dehlin [00:38:32] But, hey, and there weren't more women than men on the frontier. There were more men.

Guest 3 [00:38:36] Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the apologetics that we

John Dehlin [00:38:38] were fed or not, patriarchy. The men wanted more women. The men in power wanted more women. It's nothing more sophisticated than Warren Jeffs and the FLDS church. That's what it was.

Laura Schnell [00:38:48] Yeah. And I have. I have a dear friend whom I love, and I, you know, polygamy was easy for me to kind of separate myself from because I'm like, I don't come from this. You know, I'm not married to my cousin.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] And one time in Mormonism, you were glad you weren't a pioneer.

Laura Schnell [00:39:04] Absolutely. And she comes from, I mean, all kinds of. Yeah. Hey, you know, these two. This. Lots of polygamy. And she told me once, she said, you know, this is just trauma for me. And that was another thing that I was like, absolutely. This is horrendous. And she's like, and it lives in my DNA, this need to be dominated sexually, physically, mentally by a man, because that's what God wants. And that when she told me that, I was like, I'm done. I'm done with that.

Guest 3 [00:39:38] I'm a faithful or. Nope. Post.

Laura Schnell [00:39:41] Post.

Guest 3 [00:39:42] Perspective.

Laura Schnell [00:39:42] Interesting perspective. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] So for that female student that you tried to explain polygamy to, do you have. Do you want to look in the camera and say anything to her?

Laura Schnell [00:39:52] I just want to say, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to. I did mean it, but I didn't know better, so.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] And I'll be thrilled if she reaches out and says it's okay, you know better. You do better.

Laura Schnell [00:40:07] Honestly, Sister Schnell, it was probably multiple, to be honest. I just remember her face because she was at the front seat.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] So six years, right?

Laura Schnell [00:40:14] Six years. Yeah, I did. I did. So, okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] You were going to talk about the black priesthood ban really quick.

Laura Schnell [00:40:22] Yeah. That one was another easy one for me that I'm like, absolutely. Racism, 100%. That one was very easy for me early on. What I mean, early on is early on. In my questioning, like, summer before quitting, we had a training, and it was just bogus. And I just remember sitting there being like, you just what.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] What was the training? What were they saying?

Laura Schnell [00:40:45] It was saying, similar to polygamy. You know, we didn't understand. We. We can't judge or blame all these people. We can't. You know, this is just what they were given. This is just a knowledge. We operate from the knowledge that we have, which is true. But, man, this is the seven Ds. It would make sense if it was maybe slavery time. I would be like, okay, I understand

John Dehlin [00:41:08] maybe 1960s, you're saying, but.

Laura Schnell [00:41:10] But literally this is the 70s. How are you still? How are you? Yeah, this is 1970s. How are you still? Like, we can't. Can't get them baptized or they can't go to the temple. That's. They can't go to the temple. Can't receive the priesthood.

John Dehlin [00:41:25] And these are your ancestors, by the way.

Laura Schnell [00:41:26] Yeah, right. Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] And so you couldn't have been baptized part in 1978?

Laura Schnell [00:41:33] I don't know. I think I baptized, but.

Guest 3 [00:41:35] You mean go to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Oh, right, right. You couldn't have. Okay. Gone to the temple.

Guest 3 [00:41:39] As you mentioned, you have African blood.

Laura Schnell [00:41:41] African blood, yeah. But I think I have enough indigenous and European blood to save me from that. I think it. To pass, I think it has to be a certain. I think they had some arbitrary things.

John Dehlin [00:41:53] Depends on who. Because for some, it was not even a drop.

Laura Schnell [00:41:55] Does it.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] Not even a drop, really?

Laura Schnell [00:41:57] Oh, Well, I have 24%, but it

John Dehlin [00:41:58] was Brazil and Latin America. They kind of blew that open when they realized that people like you actually did have. Oh, yeah, this is pre 22, 23 and me.

Laura Schnell [00:42:08] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Pre. Yeah. Pre.ancestry.com. yeah. So anyway, that one was my husband. That's the most. He's vocal on. He's like, how. How can you absolutely not face consequences? I don't care who you are, if you're before Kimball or after. How can you not face consequences in the next life if there is one? But for the atrocious. For the atrociousness of that ban, you know, you literally keep someone from living a covenant that you tell them is the most important based on something they didn't choose. Their skin.

John Dehlin [00:42:42] It's now the brother and now the brethren say in the essays, it wasn't doctrine. It was just.

Laura Schnell [00:42:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] Human frailties and policies. Or they also want to say God did it and we don't know why, but.

Laura Schnell [00:42:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Which is it?

Laura Schnell [00:42:57] Yeah, just say race Just say racism. Just say it.

Guest 3 [00:43:01] Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Laura Schnell [00:43:06] Yeah. And I don't know. That one is very. I feel sensitive to it because I'm just like, what would have happened? I think about my grandmother, you know, the ancestor. I'm just like, seriously. I think about my indigenous ancestors and I just part of me, in order to reclaim them and reclaim, I need freedom from this high demand religion. I absolutely cannot do it in the same space. Some people can. And that's great. I have been way too colonized elsewhere. I'm not about to do it in a religion.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] Boom. Mike Trapp. So was it at all terrifying? I mean, you weren't just orthodox Mormon, you were CES employee.

Leaving the Church and Life After Mormonism

Laura Schnell [00:43:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Was it terrifying to consider leaving? I mean, Covid helped.

Laura Schnell [00:43:58] Covid did help. That was great. Yeah, it was terrifying. Mostly because of what I fishbowl, you know, and what I represented, who I was to students, to parents, to former coworkers. I had a couple reach out to me. You know, I'm not super vocal on Instagram about it. Once in a while I'll say something, and I always love to talk to anybody, you know, who DMs me. And we can talk about it all day, but I'm usually like, too many Mormons follow me, and I don't want to hurt anybody. That's my go to. Sometimes I'm like, this is too. I need to be authentic. I have to share. This is important to me. But some of them have reached out and one of them said, you used to be so genuinely loving. What happened? And honestly, the one that bothers me the most is you must have gone through something so terrible for you. For you to lost your faith, for you to have lost your faith. And it makes me feel like that's just a fake thing. It's like, no, you're projecting. You're saying it's going to take you terribly painful things to lose your faith. And obviously, I've been through difficult things, but again, it's not that because this happened, I lost my faith. It's because I looked inside. It's because I finally was like, you know what? Towards liberation and no looking back. And that's really it for me.

Guest 3 [00:45:28] I think it's beautiful.

Laura Schnell [00:45:30] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Yeah. I mean, this is. It's a beautiful anomaly on Mormon Stories podcast that yours was so internal. I'm just in love. I love all the other CES letter Mormon stories, you know, faith journeys. But I love that yours was just so elegantly internal and intrinsic.

Laura Schnell [00:45:52] Thank you. It makes It. I don't know if it makes it harder or easier, but it's, you know, it's the choice I've made.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] But has it been excruciating or has it been wonderful or both?

Laura Schnell [00:46:01] Both. Yeah. Some days I feel super free. I actually, last year, before I was even ready to be vocal about me stepping away, I got a butterfly tattoo, which is, you know, so basic, but also just very important to me. Lots of family and cultural. It represents my indigenous ancestors. It represents a poem that my father, the one in Colombia, used to read to me. Kind of our bond, kind of reclaiming that bond. It represents just change and freedom and growth. Which, of course, sounds so cliche, but to me at the moment, I was like, this is what I want. And it just reminds me, and it's a place where you can't really see it. And I did it purposely. I was like, I did it for me to remind me that this is about me, that I looked in and that I listen to Laura now, you know, and sometimes it's scary. Sometimes I'm like, could she be wrong? And some days I do wake up and I wonder, what did I do now that I have a baby? I'm like, am I. Am I ruining. And then when I settle. And when I can settle my thoughts, I can actually approach those thoughts of being criticism and negativity with love and say, I know why you think this. You've been conditioned and you're scared, and it's okay. You have a place with me and the true self. I think the true Laura is always getting stronger and stronger where I can trust her. So

Guest 3 [00:47:21] a lot of people who. Going back to what your dad was saying about how. How will you be a good person if you don't believe in the scriptures? Did you think that ever, or did you have anybody else, maybe, like, former co workers just really doubt and think that you're on, like, a moral relativism path now? Have you had any pushback that you have to stand up for yourself? Like, you were like, I intrinsically know what's right now.

Laura Schnell [00:47:49] Yeah. Yes. My. Especially my former mentor, he's just. He's so concerned about me, and he's so worried.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] He didn't want you to come on Mormon stories.

Laura Schnell [00:48:01] No, he did not. He told me, me, please don't. Don't talk anything but that. Don't talk to John Dehlin moment stories

Guest 3 [00:48:07] with Cara Barrell now.

Laura Schnell [00:48:08] Exactly.

Guest 3 [00:48:09] Don't worry.

Laura Schnell [00:48:10] He won't even be there. Yeah. And so I definitely have had some of them say, well, it's it's easier to choose this route because it's basically telling me it's too hard to live faithfully. And it's easy to go with the times now where there's moral relativism and where the scriptures are just, you know, a choice and obedience is a. Is an option. And so that's kind of been hard because I feel. And I talk to my close friends about this, Mark about this. My best friends. You know, weirdly enough, this is so crazy. My all of my best friends are out and none of us did it together. It was more like sidestepping, sidestepping eggshells. And then finally like, well, yeah, me too. I have one best friends from, from high school, my best friend from high school, my friends from byu, all of them, ces, Mark, Carol.

Guest 3 [00:49:13] Am I your friend? Am I out? We're all out together, right, Laura? For life.

Laura Schnell [00:49:17] It's true.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] I mean, it's also generational. The church is literally, it is hemorrhaging 20 and 30 somethings and teens. Yeah, like 80% loss. It's.

Laura Schnell [00:49:27] Yeah, yeah, totally. So I have one friend who I think is hanging on a little bit, but she's very open. I can share anything and she's not. Doesn't push back. But anyway, yeah, it's hard. Sometimes I talk to my friends about what I don't have arguments. I really don't. I'm like. But because my argument is I've made my choice. I don't want this. I'm listening to me and well, but it's easier that way. And you used to be. And my co worker told me, he said miracles are only for those who work hard enough. And I was like, well, I guess I'm done working for them. I don't know what to say to that. But anyway, I don't know if that answers your question at all, but definitely.

Guest 3 [00:50:10] Can I do a little rapid fire? Dawn, did you have a question? I was going to ask her Just a couple of things to wrap up. Did you have something else you want to say?

John Dehlin [00:50:16] Yeah, but I can do it after you.

Guest 3 [00:50:17] Okay. So since you spoke to teenagers for a living about the gospel, I'm hoping that a lot of teenagers will watch this, whether it's former students of yours or Mark's or whoever. What do you have to say to Mormon youth who are in the church but maybe have lost their faith and they're trying to still fit in a box that doesn't really fit them? What would your advice be for Mormon youth trying to survive staying, you know, in a Mormon household right now

Laura Schnell [00:50:48] who want to leave but maybe can't.

Guest 3 [00:50:51] Yeah. That they're still under 18, have to go to seminary. But trying to hope that they get cool teachers like you that don't exist sometimes anymore.

Laura Schnell [00:51:01] Like, oh, what would I say? I would say, first of all, you're not alone. It feels like you are, but you're not. Your questions are valid and real and you don't have to have a legitimate reason to question. It's just if it feels off inside, you don't have to. You don't have to come up with all kinds of court of law. Here's my defense attorney. You know, trust yourself. I know it's scary, but trust yourself. You have an innate wildness that's been caged and just listen to it and you can do it. And there can be love. And just know that when people like your parents may be or maybe leaders that you trust, maybe they say hurtful things because they just want you to stay in the church. Maybe learn not to take it personally in the way that they're hurting you. They are hurting you. And I don't want to gaslight anyone. You know, like, don't be offended. Be offended. People say hurtful things. I've been hurt many times. But don't internalize it in, in that you're wrong, you're lost, you're. You're not, you're not wrong. You're not lost, you're learning. Welcome to being a human being. Keep going. You're doing amazing. That's what I would say.

Guest 3 [00:52:22] Yeah. Beautiful. And I was also just going to follow up. Yeah. Speaking of just boxes that a lot of people don't fit into. You're talking about the nuclear family. And I guess it was in part one where you. Speaking of maybe also offense to the way that they. I think you mentioned that the priesthood not being in your home was a kind of painful. That the people would, you know, look down on your family that they're less than. If people will have a different family structure than what the church upholds as the proper way to. That a family should look and feel less than while they're still trying to be in the church and they don't have a priesthood holder. What, what advice do you have to people who are, who might feel like they're less than without having that same

John Dehlin [00:53:13] family structure, or single moms that feel like they don't have priesthood power in the home to bless the kids?

Laura Schnell [00:53:19] Yeah, yeah. Like my mom for so long. Man. I, I honestly, I would say you're not crazy for feeling less than. People might say, but we've never made you feel less than or we've never taught that you're less than. If you feel less than, that's valid. It's because that's the narrative. That's the narrative. That's the water we're swimming in. But you're absolutely. The only thing that qualifies you is that you're a human with a heart. So nothing else makes you less than. It's not fair because I don't believe in priesthood power anymore. But if you do, and there's not a priesthood holder in the home or the priesthood holder is not worthy, that has no reflect on your worth or on your family's value. That's an external thing. And external things don't add value to internal beings. They just don't. They're. They're decoration. They don't add any. Anything. So maybe trust that.

Guest 3 [00:54:22] I don't know for sure. These are great answers. I'm going to do one more. Okay. And then, John, you can go back to being the host again.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] Co host, Kara.

Guest 3 [00:54:32] Thanks. So as much as you feel comfortable sharing because you have, you know, right to your spiritual journey and whatever you feel like sharing, what do you believe in about God and prayer now and connecting with the div. And you talked a lot about trusting your inner self. Do you. Do you still pray? Is there any other external way that you connect with your maker or however you view it?

John Dehlin [00:54:59] Also Jesus. Don't forget Jesus.

Laura Schnell [00:55:01] Oh, Jesus. Yeah, Jesus in a different box. No, I love. Yeah, that's a great question. Honestly, I stopped praying when I was still in seminary. It was really difficult. I just couldn't bring myself two. I would pray maybe once a day. And I had this experience. And at the time, I needed this structural experience. Now I don't believe in Heavenly Father or Heavenly Mother anymore. At the time I had this experience, it was really needed. I was falling asleep and I still have it on my iPhone. I typed it up. I was about to fall asleep and I kind of had this, like, thought. And of course it's my own mind and I'm totally okay with that. But at the time I. I said, oh, that came from God. But it was Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. And they were talking to me and I just closed my eyes because I was like, I want to follow this. Where is this taking me? And I was in front of them and they were standing up and they were, first of all, not white. So that was comforting. And second, so just smiling the whole time. And I just said, hey, are you sincerely proud of me? Like, here I am. I don't really pray anymore. I say the F word once in a while. And I remember Heavenly Mother, you know, the figure that was Heavenly Mother at that time. She said, yeah, I actually love you, especially because you say the F word. And then Heavenly Father said, and we love you regardless. And in fact, you don't need us anymore. And I remember being like, what? And again, this was. This was maybe my inner self. This was my inner self trying to. To teach me something about how I don't need the external validation or factors to really determine if I'm. If I'm truly a good person. So do I believe in God? Not in the traditional sense. I believe he or she. They are inside. I believe in my own divinity. I believe. I read a book called Women who Run with the Wolves. Highly recommend it. But I believe in my own wildness. I think we're all, like, beautifully wild creatures that have been tamed and caged and colonized. And I think there's a wild voice in us that wants to get us to break, you know, break things. And I think we should. And so I think that God and prayer. I look inward now, and I still get the. I still get the urge to pray when I need something. When I'm really stressed out. My daughter was really sick, and I remember being like. And I just turned inside and it was comforting instead of scary. Before, it would have been scary. Like, I'm apostatizing now. It's. Of course it's inside.

Guest 3 [00:57:40] Yeah. And an appendage on to what you just said. Do you look back at the times that you did pray, or maybe you got. Whether it's spiritual confirmations or felt the Holy Ghost or things. Do you reinterpret those experiences now as your own power was there the entire time? How do you view your past spiritual experiences now?

Laura Schnell [00:57:59] Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Because I have. I have reframed them. I've been careful not to gaslight myself. And that. No, I must have made it all up. I didn't make. Of course I felt good in the temple. Of course I. I felt the spirit with this talk. Of course I felt in the ceiling room with my husband. And I reframe them now as that was the power of humanity. Like, we. We are powerful. And when you're together in love with people, there's something felt there. Why do I need to claim it was a spirit? It was that my husband loved me and I loved him. And we were doing something vulnerable and I felt it. Yeah. And you know, and in the temple, yeah. I was thinking about how God loved me, AKA now I was thinking about my worth and that I matter and that I have value. Of course I was going to feel that. So I have reframed it into knowing that my intuition has been very. Has been with me all along. So that's comforting that I'm not trying to put on these new clothes I don't fit into. Is that. That I'm taking things off so that I can see my intuition, if that makes sense.

Guest 3 [00:59:06] Absolutely. I hope a lot of people, whether they're post shelf break or wherever they are in the church, that they really take to heart what you just said. Because I never want to take away people's faith and what they're finding, but that a lot of people post shelf break are really nerv. To trust their intuition, to really forge their own path more morally speaking, spiritually, on all those different fronts. Because they've never trusted themselves going back to what we're talking about maybe half an hour ago and giving themselves permission to do that. And I think you. Yeah, I think you summed that up really beautifully.

Laura Schnell [00:59:39] Oh, thank you. Thank you. I. From an anxiety point of view, I've always, maybe not always, but a lot of times operated from fear. And I sat down with fear the other day and I had this thought, you know, fear is teaching me something. And what is it teaching me? And sometimes we think fear is keeping me from something, but really, maybe fear is saying, whoa, this takes courage. It's not stopping me. I used to treat fear as stopping me. Like I'm afraid to take off my garments. That means I shouldn't. Rather than a teacher who says, why are you afraid? What's this feeling? So I guess don't be afraid of feeling fear. And just because you feel it doesn't mean things. You're doing something wrong. I should say. I don't know.

Guest 3 [01:00:26] Yeah. It could literally just be new pathways are being forged in your brain that have never been forged before. That's my encouragement, quite honestly, to that fear that, you know, post Mormon fear of going out into the wilderness. Braving the wilderness. Brene Brown.

Laura Schnell [01:00:42] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:00:44] Kiss that. Like, yeah. Growing muscles in your brain and in your body, whether it's working out or working out your brain, you're still exercising muscles that you might not have done before. And it might be painful, but there's so much like beauty and growth and that you kind of do like, you level up into an entirely different person that just might be even unrecognizable in, you know, a year or two's time, so.

Laura Schnell [01:01:08] Exactly.

Guest 3 [01:01:09] Yeah. I think those are a lot of beautiful words. I hope people take that to heart.

Laura Schnell [01:01:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] I love that. If strengthening your muscles leads to pain, why wouldn't strengthening your character or your life experiences cause you some discomfort?

Laura Schnell [01:01:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] We too often associate discomfort with bad. When oftentimes discomfort is literally a prerequisite for growth, I think.

Laura Schnell [01:01:34] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm more interested in growth now in my life. I hope people don't recognize me. I really don't. That haven't seen me in 10 years. I hope they're like, oh, because Laura, that's you.

Guest 3 [01:01:48] You.

Laura Schnell [01:01:49] Right, right. And that's kind of why we. The butterfly thing, you know, and we've heard it a million times. There's a million cliches about butterflies, but we get stuck on that caterpillar and we're mad at the caterpillar. Why don't you look like this anymore? Or at the butterfly. Why don't you look like a caterpillar anymore? And so we embrace. We embrace change all the time. And that doesn't mean it's not scary or uncomfortable. You know, even coming onto this podcast. So much fear. Who's gonna listen in a tank top. In a tank top without your hair up?

John Dehlin [01:02:21] With my hair down and not straightened?

Laura Schnell [01:02:23] Yes.

Guest 3 [01:02:25] I would not have it any other way. I can imagine any other way.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] To quote the Family Stone, you're letting your freak flag fly. Have you heard that? Have you seen that movie?

Laura Schnell [01:02:35] No, I haven't.

John Dehlin [01:02:37] It's a good one. It's like. It's a great holiday. It's one of Margi's favorite Christmas movies of all time. That's really the Family Stone. Check it out. Sarah, just.

Guest 3 [01:02:46] You know, our church is really diverse when it. All it takes is having your natural hair down with a tank top to be a woody.

Laura Schnell [01:02:54] Right, I know.

Guest 3 [01:02:57] That's.

Laura Schnell [01:02:57] That's actually another thing that kind of gets me sometimes is I'm like. I'm literally having conversations about tank tops. This is not normal. This is not normal. So kind of hits me. Okay. Lots of conditioning.

Guest 3 [01:03:11] So everyone be patient with yourself.

Laura Schnell [01:03:14] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:03:14] Tank tops. Ordering at Starbucks. All these things we gotta learn in our 30s.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Those rings.

Laura Schnell [01:03:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] Second earrings.

Laura Schnell [01:03:21] Yeah. Hey, I have six piercings now. And babe. And you don't need to do anything. Yeah. Do I need to show em? You don't need to do anything, by the way, that you're not uncomfortable with Sometimes I Feel like my mom's like, so, so do you drink now? And do you. And I'm like, no, I sip wine. I love my Welch's. My brother in law calls it my Welch's. Yeah, he calls it Welch's because it's literally. I mean, I think Tylenol has more alcohol and I love it. And once a month and I don't need, you know, and some people do. Some people need it. You're. It's yours. You get to do you. And you'll mess up and you'll, maybe you'll, you know, I've had times where I've said things to my mom that I'm like, that was not empathetic of me to say, and you'll mess up. But again, welcome to humans, you know.

Guest 3 [01:04:10] So, yeah, the fishbowl is still on you sometimes as an ex Mormon, right. Of your family's judging, like, is she messing up?

Laura Schnell [01:04:18] Is she drinking her Welch's? Mostly the bad words for me.

Guest 3 [01:04:21] Yeah.

Laura Schnell [01:04:21] My mom's like, but she's so good though, because she swears in Spanish. So we're equal.

Reflections, Advice, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:04:28] But a couple of super quick questions. One is, this is probably the hardest question of all. Like if you now rewind and think back to like your times in Colombia and what might have happened to you, your mom, your sister, if you had stayed there. And then also, and this is a very white, privileged, colonialistic question, but I'm trying to channel listeners and I want to give you a chance to really knock it out of the park. Look at where you are now. And you now are bilingual, you now live in the United States, you now have a bachelor's degree and all this work experience, somebody can say what a blessing the church has been in your life. And all along the way, whether it's those loving Rama members in Colombia or

Guest 3 [01:05:26] started with the missionaries in Columbia. Right?

John Dehlin [01:05:28] The missionaries or the loving Rama members in Queens, or the people in Arizona, or the seminary teachers that loved you or the leaders that took care of you, or you're just, wow, you're walking away from all. Well, how ungrateful you're walking away from all of the ways the church has just abundantly blessed your life. And you're just like turning your back to that. What would you say in response to that?

Laura Schnell [01:05:56] Yeah, you know, I say it absolutely was a blessing and is. And that nothing will ever take that away. Just because I choose a different life path doesn't mean that I feel zero gratitude or have zero affection or love for the incredible people. The incredible experiences I had as an active member, even.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Gratitude.

Laura Schnell [01:06:21] Yeah, yeah, gratitude. There's something to be said about holding a paradox in yourself. And in that book by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Women who Run with the Wolves, she talks about this concept called descansos, where, you know, on the side of the road, especially in the Southwest, you see crosses. Sometimes it's because an accident happened there, someone got ran over or something. And it's common more in the Latin American communities in the U.S. but she says that at a point in anyone's life, you have to be able to do that. What little deaths did you experience? And yes, you can chalk it up to. Because it is. It's initiation and it's individuation. And, well, I had to come to the US because look who I met and look what I did. But that doesn't mean that a little part of Colombian Laura didn't die when she left at 8 years old. And that needs to be honored and that needs to be seen as a tragedy and it needs to be pinned to the ground so that it no longer follows me, that tragedy, you know, and it needs to be laid to rest. That grief needs to be written a love letter to and be laid to rest. And so I feel like it's doing a disservice to me by constantly being like, but, but, but it was so good. It was so good.

Guest 3 [01:07:38] The church.

Laura Schnell [01:07:38] I'm so grateful. What happened to that eight year old little girl who literally, for the rest of her life will never have, growing up in Colombia, the relationships with her father, with her extended family, that deserves merit too. And just because I honor her and because I pinned that to the ground to rest, doesn't mean that all these other beautiful births don't matter. So I'm like, there's got to be room for both. There needs to be. The paradox of our little deaths and births. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Love it.

Guest 3 [01:08:10] Really. I love that.

Laura Schnell [01:08:12] It's a good book.

Guest 3 [01:08:15] It's going to be in the show.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Notes to the mentor. CES mentor who told you not to come on Mormon stories. He, like, says, lara, why did you do it? I told you not to come on Mormon stories. What would you say to him about why you felt like this is important?

Laura Schnell [01:08:31] You know, he'll probably, he will listen. So look at you, Mike.

Guest 3 [01:08:36] Oh.

Laura Schnell [01:08:36] Oh, I'm sorry. I keep looking at this. I look at myself. So, you know, I just feel that I wanted you to hear my story from. From a place where I felt safe. And I wanted you to know that I came on because this was an opportunity given to me to be able to speak freely about what happened to me. And I need to honor. I need to honor those parts of myself who have been quiet my whole life, who've been told to stop. To stop stirring the pot, to not speak up. And this is a way of me to show myself in a way that I can be courageous and that I can speak up and that I do matter and that my liberation matters. And that does not take away the love and appreciation I have for you and the things you taught me. It doesn't cancel any of that out. You're just as part of my journey as anything else.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] And to your parents, who are like, lara, we raised you as a person of faith. Why would you dishonor us by going on a podcast and talking about your disbelief?

Laura Schnell [01:09:48] I would say you guys raised me to be brave, and you raised me to be such a good person. And so I credit you. I don't credit the church. I credit you because you taught me those things. Maybe the church was the vehicle, but you taught me to look at other people's hearts. Dad, you are just the kindest person I've ever met, literally. And, Mommy, I look up to you in every way, every possible. You are strong, you are funny, you are, you know, so gracious and so forgiving. And so I would say thank you for respecting my journey and know that this, again, doesn't take anything away from what you've taught me. In fact, because you taught me so many things, I can be on my own path. And I think you'd be proud of that.

John Dehlin [01:10:43] So beautiful. Where's Mom?

Laura Schnell [01:10:45] She's in Texas. Mom and dad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:48] Okay.

Laura Schnell [01:10:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] I have to ask this. Anything you want to say to Mark? Because I. Oh. I mean, Mark talked about you multiple times.

Guest 3 [01:10:56] I know.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] It just seems like you guys had a journey together a little bit.

Laura Schnell [01:10:59] We did. Dude, you know, I love you so much. You are such an incredible friend, because I could always go to you with difficult, you know, church seminary situations, and you were the only one who could understand because you lived that with me. But I can't thank you enough for always, you know, ending our conversations with saying, hey, you. You know what to do. You know exactly what to do. You just. You trust yourself. You need to trust yourself. And you. You always reminded me of that. So thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] And to your husband, who, when you came out to him, was surprisingly affirming and supportive. Right?

Laura Schnell [01:11:46] Yeah, I. Yeah. This is Michael.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] You're just very different.

Laura Schnell [01:11:52] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] He.

Laura Schnell [01:11:54] You are incredible. You're probably literally the least judgmental person I can tell you anything I'm feeling regarding anything, and you listen. Even if it's hard for you to listen. You. You respect the things that I, that I think about and the need for me to talk about them all the time. But I also wanted to say that I'm sorry for ever making you feel less than. For making you feel like you weren't leading our family, for making you feel like you weren't spiritual enough. But thank you for always forgiving me regardless and for not holding it against me. I'm so glad we're in this journey together.

John Dehlin [01:12:41] As soon as Mark's interview was released, I had several current employees for CES reach out to me and say, I'm trapped. I don't know what to do. I don't believe anymore, but bad things will happen if I, if I quit my job or step away. But I'm depressed and I don't know what to do. And I do my best to put these people in touch with others who have left. But anything you would say to a current CES employee that is just trapped and feels like there's no out and is afraid of losing their job and their income and their benefits because you've, you've been through that.

Laura Schnell [01:13:24] Yeah. Honestly, I would say you can. Being authentic is always going to be better than the alternative. And it's hard. And so you, you do things at your own pace and you look for jobs and you, you do what you can at the time, but it is not asked of you to sacrifice yourself anymore. You've sacrificed yourself long enough and you, you know, it will be at your pace and things will come up and maybe things will take a long time and maybe they won't, but the people who will reject you already have. So think about that. You're the one that matters now. You know that a story needs to be told and, and it's, it's time to stop sacrificing your happiness and mental health and spiritual well being out of fear.

John Dehlin [01:14:22] So beautiful. There's a, there's a project called the Clergy Project. I don't know if you've heard of it, but, but it was during kind of the new atheism kind of movements post 9 11. There were a lot of clergy members that were losing their faith. And so some people got together and created a clergy project, which was like the shelter where they would help pastors and preachers who had lost their faith find employment. We need a clergy project within Mormonism.

Laura Schnell [01:14:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] Because I know of People who have been driven to the point of suicidal ideation because they're like, you know, let's just say they're 5, 10, 15, 20 years into their career. Their family relies on the income and the benefits and they feel trapped, but they're literally becoming depressed and suicidal staying in. So we need to find a way, as a post Mormon community to help these people find jobs so they don't have to stay in a job that makes them want to end their life so that they also can. Because the church sure isn't taking care of these people. You, you haven't necessarily. Is there anything, if anybody's got opportunities, is there anything like employment wise that you would want to just say you have needs or desires or are you feeling good?

Laura Schnell [01:15:38] Oh, that's so kind. Honestly, I'm okay because that company that I teach English for, luckily I've been able to keep going and now I'm writing some curriculum for them and I'm continuing. But I agree though that there needs to be that support, like a, an employment specialist. But as a community where we're like, you come to us and we help you, you know, where you're not alone in this, you shouldn't have to feel this way just for the sake of working. That shouldn't. That's just not worth it, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [01:16:13] Yeah. So, yeah. So hopefully there's some listener that feels as passionate about this as other leaders in the community have felt about other things. We need someone to rise up and help provide job opportunities to not not just ces, but just church employment.

Guest 3 [01:16:33] That'd be a really cool non. Profit. Right? Like its own Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:16:36] Clergy project. Non profit.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] So maybe someone's going to hear that call and do something about it. If you are a person of means or of time and you want a really worthy cause, I think you could literally save lives and transform families if. If someone out there was willing to consider that.

Laura Schnell [01:16:52] I think so too.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] Yeah. All right, well, I think. I think we've kept you too long enough. But, but Laura Schnell, it's been so beautiful. Your story and your telling of your story is just simply beautiful and powerful. Kara, agree or disagree, I'm here to disagree.

Guest 3 [01:17:14] I'm ready to thumbs up or sit here for another hour. No, every story is like so unique and different and I sit here and I just love to soak up. Like you have such a good energy and your story from start to finish, from Queens to all of the CES stuff to like your closing and final thoughts to the people that were that you worked with and to Mark all around, just like an incredibly beautiful story. So thank you for coming all the way from Texas. Pretty much.

Laura Schnell [01:17:45] Yeah, of course.

Guest 3 [01:17:47] Amazing, amazing story.

Laura Schnell [01:17:48] It was amazing.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] Anything else you want to say?

Laura Schnell [01:17:51] Well, there was just one last person I wanted to. To thank, and that's my sister. She has been the number.

John Dehlin [01:18:00] Oh, yeah. We have to come back to her. I asked about her.

Laura Schnell [01:18:02] Yeah, you did. She literally was the only person that I think I could. I was the most worried about because I. Example, example, example, but that I could be so vulnerable with, and that every single time I spoke, anything, even if she might have disagreed, she always said, I'm here to listen, and I love you. Always. She didn't say, I love you no matter what, or I love you in spite of. She always said, I love you. I love everything you're saying. Even if at the time she might have been like, that's different from what I think. So she's the rm. She's the rm. Yeah. Yeah. And so I just want to. I wanted to tell you that I love you, Aleja, and I want to thank you for being here seriously, since day one. So that's it.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Beautiful. All right, well, thanks again, Mark, for letting us know about Laura and for being her friend.

Laura Schnell [01:19:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] And for your amazing story and all you're doing. And, Laura, this has been beautiful and powerful. Thank you so much.

Laura Schnell [01:19:12] Thank you. It's been amazing.

John Dehlin [01:19:14] Kara, it is so wonderful to have you as a co host. Thank you for being a co host.

Guest 3 [01:19:18] Thanks. I am the luckiest person in the world. Like, oh, this is my job. What is. Somebody pinch me. Somebody wake me up. I get to spend all day with you guys.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] What do we have in store? What does our audience have in store? Like, what are your plans for you in this role? Anything you want to say about that?

Guest 3 [01:19:35] Oh, like our new projects or just anything.

John Dehlin [01:19:37] Anything you. I mean, I'll just be honest. Like, there was a Reddit thread, ex Mormon Reddit thread, which I loved, which is like, why isn't Kara doing more? Why doesn't John let her do her own interviews? Why is she, like, speaking less than John?

Guest 3 [01:19:48] And I have no idea what you're talking about. I totally don't search my name on the. On Google.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] You never saw any of these.

Guest 3 [01:19:55] We don't. We don't search Reddit for letting people, you know, have a finger on the pulse of what ex Mormons are saying about us. No, yeah, I did see that. And it was kind of funny that somebody was like, kara should speak more and then we definitely have. A lot of people are like, kara should speak less. But the one. The episode of Kelly is just aired, you know, yesterday, where I sat in the host chair, and I will. I. I joke that I'm trying to replace John de Linde. That's a joke. I cannot. I will not. But I am very happy to add my voice and my perspective and just, yeah, ride co pilot to John as much as I can. And I mean, I.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] And developing your own, like, doing your own interviews, Right? Like, we both want that, right?

Guest 3 [01:20:38] Yes. As much. As much good content that people are willing to listen to and invest in. It's. I know sometimes podcasts are long and it's difficult, but we want to cover as many different angles and topics and things as we can. So just like outsourcing. John's only one person, so I can do a lot more as well. So this is just going to lead into. Thank you, donors. Thank you, donors for your monthly or weekly or yearly subscriptions to the Mormon Stories podcast. And it really goes to keeping all of this alive. So if you are not a donor, please become one.

John Dehlin [01:21:17] Yeah, yeah. And I'm. I want Cara to lead her own interviews. And so I'm. I'm. I don't want to say I'm challenging her, but that's something we're working aggressively towards. And she's doing great. And, you know, and there. There are people. I'll just. I'm going to address this. There are people who are like, oh, John, why'd you fix what wasn't broken? Why did you have to bring somebody else on? And, oh, Kara's, you know, blah, blah, blah about her style or whatever. Like, I feel really good about this decision. I feel really good about having care here. I really feel good about what she adds, and I think it's really important. And I know it's different, and I know sometimes change is hard and difficult, but what we're doing here is really important because, you know, and this isn't a new thought, and a lot of people have expressed concerns about this over the past 15 years, but it's important that we have representation in podcasting. And I've tried to elevate female podcasters in the past, and we don't just need it to tokenize them. We need their voices, we need their perspectives. And I'm just really happy to have Kara's wisdom, her work ethic, her character, her charisma, her humor. And so I'm proud to be doing this. I understand if it's hard for Some of you, but please, just. Instead of just dissing her or us when you don't like. By the way, the overwhelming feedback has been super positive. People love Kara.

Laura Schnell [01:22:38] You.

John Dehlin [01:22:38] Thank. I think I'd probably send you five or ten screenshots a day of people fawning all over you and loving what you do.

Guest 3 [01:22:46] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:22:47] And there are critics, and I just say, for critics, don't just take a dump. Like, actually just say, hey, this part of this time code, you know, I didn't appreciate the way, you know, give us. Give us feedback and give us time genuinely.

Guest 3 [01:23:00] And I genuinely mean that because if people listen to this podcast, you probably agree with a lot of the things we're talking about. I know that you're, you know, not just a critic out to be a critic, and you probably are even a donor and want to invest in the best content possible. I want to invest in the best content possible. And I can only do that with constructive criticism between John and me moving forward. So genuinely, if there are, you know, certain timestamps where, like, Kara said something that was out of line or John said something that was out of line or, you know, had the wrong tone, like, we do want to hone it in, like, genuinely.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] And for. And for people that, like, for the super minority that, that like, has criticisms of Cara. Go back and listen to my first 10 episodes, right? Or my first. He was eating 200 or 300 episodes. Like, he's like this. What's that?

Guest 3 [01:23:46] He was eating in them.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] I did sometimes. I did sometimes.

Guest 3 [01:23:50] Tell me about your grandma's death. Was that tragic? I'm a busy guy working Microsoft.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] No, I mean, like, like, this is not an easy job and it's hard to do all the things we do. And so just give us constructive feedback and it's just going to get better. Give us time and patience if you. If you're working to adjust. But mostly thanks to everyone who's been so gracious and supportive and. And yeah, this is a financial investment to not only invest in Gerardo and Brooklyn, you know, we've been able to. We had a good couple of years, so we're investing in Kara. And so if you value having a female voice and if you value having Gerardo, Brooklyn, higher quality audio video, you know, all the shorts on. On the Understanding Mormonism YouTube channel, the new TikTok channel, the new Instagram, you know, influence. And we're getting tons of new listeners through Instagram and TikTok. If you value all that and you're not a supporter, please step up and support it. And that's the way you keep Cara and Gerardo and Brooklyn and all the new platforms thriving. So thanks to the people support us, Please go to MormonStories.org, become a monthly donor today if you want to see this stuff continue. And if you're frustrated, just give us constructive feedback and we'll just get better and better. So with all that love, you guys, thanks again. Carrie, you're amazing. But most importantly, thanks Laura. Thanks to Marseilles yet Laura. Marcela Garcia Gomez, Runyon de Chiro.

Laura Schnell [01:25:22] There it is.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] Thank you so much.

Laura Schnell [01:25:24] Thank you guys. Guys, this was amazing. Thank you for this opportunity.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] All right, and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Email us at mormonstories at gmail com. Follow us on all the platforms, give us lots of comments and feedback. We love it. See you guys again soon. Bye. Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.