Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 207

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Mormon Stories podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org hello, and

Natasha Helfer [00:00:15] welcome to another series of Mormon Stories. This is Natasha Parker, and I am back to give you my second interview in the Mental Health relational series that we're trying to run here today. I have with me a very special guest, a dear friend of mine. We've been friends for about over 10 years. Her name is Janelle, and she will be speaking with us today about her struggles with a husband that has become disaffected with the church. And we realize that this subject has been broached once before on Mormon Stories with a woman named Jackie, which I listened to her interview, as did Janelle, and we discussed that and thought it was a fabulous interview.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:01] She had a lot of wonderful things to say and lots of great ways to deal with the issue. At the same time, we were concerned that it was not completely representative of many people's experience with this when this comes up.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:17] So we thought we would hit the subject again and just kind of talk about it and have Janelle share her story and what her experience has been for the past about five, five and a half years since this came to fruition in her marriage. So. Hello, Janelle.

Janelle [00:01:35] Hi there.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:36] Thank you so much for being with us today. I appreciate your time and welcome. This will be kind of fun for us since. Since our relationship goes way back. So we're both kind of excited to do this. Can you give me a start with Janelle, just a little bit of your background and tell us a little bit about where you come from and how Mormonism fits into your life and just tell us a little bit of your story.

Janelle's LDS Upbringing and Family Background

Janelle [00:02:07] Sure. I was basically raised in the church. My father has been or was a lifelong member, and my mom is a convert to the church. And so.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:22] Because of your father, Right?

Janelle [00:02:24] Because of my father. And so, you know, as a little girl, I was. My mom was learning the gospel, really, as I was growing up, my dad, his family was, you know, again, lifelong members of the church, but not completely active. Not, you know, I think, had testimonies, but not maybe doing, you know, everything

Natasha Helfer [00:02:54] the way Mormons are kind of expected to do.

Janelle [00:02:58] Exactly. Not everything the way they should have, maybe. So I definitely saw my parents struggling a little bit as I was growing up. My mom wanting to live the teachings and the things that she had learned as she was learning the gospel, and my dad really not being comfortable or, you know, totally able to do some of those things. So, like I said, we were active. We went to church every Sunday. But the. The living it in our home was something that we were continually struggling to do. So not as consistent as maybe I would have liked. Certainly not ideal.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:53] And you're the oldest of five siblings, is that correct?

Janelle [00:03:56] Right, right. I served a mission, as did my husband. He and I were married in the temple. He's a BYU graduate. So pretty. Pretty standard for a lot of LDS couples.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:20] And you yourself went to school in Utah there?

Janelle [00:04:25] Utah Valley.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:26] Okay. That's where you guys met, was in Provo.

Janelle [00:04:31] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:32] Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Your courtship and your deciding to get married, and what were things that attracted you and things that maybe concerned you or

Janelle [00:04:45] we met on a blind date, and so those.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:50] Actually. Those work sometimes.

Janelle [00:04:53] Sometimes you. You marry those people that you meet on blind dates. Yes. It was just easy to be. He was easy to talk to, and we were able to be good friends right from the beginning and could be. I mean, there was.

Janelle [00:05:13] I don't know, there was not a need to impress or do anything. There was some honesty right from the beginning that was refreshing and nice. And we dated, you know, pretty normally. And probably after, you know, five or six months, things started becoming more serious, and we started talking about the possibility of getting married. And we, you know, had some similar goals. He's very motivated. He's very, you know, always knew he would be a good provider and that, you know, he was a great student, getting good grades and doing well, and those things were really important to him and definitely was attracted to that, and it was just fun, and it was fun to be around.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:21] So they say hindsight's 20 20. Were there any things that, looking back now, you think, boy, maybe we should have been paying more attention to that? I think one of the struggles that couples who are starting to date and get married, you know, we're told to marry within the church. That's kind of the suggestion that's given to members, is to marry another member and to marry in the temple. Those are kind of things we've all heard growing up to. Do you think that there were things that you just assumed because he was Mormon, or were you guys talking about your testimonies and things like that? Do you think you should have done that more or it didn't matter at that point?

Janelle [00:07:01] Oh, you know, there's probably things that we could have. Again, hindsight is 20 20, but we definitely talked about these things. We attended church together. I remember asking, almost drilling him on a Lot of things. And how would you handle this? And, you know, I wanted to be really sure and I was marrying the right person or that we had the same goals, same things we would be working on.

Janelle [00:07:34] And I remember one time, you know, asking him all these questions and. And one thing he said, I didn't have to ask him any more questions because he just said, you know, that the most important thing that he would teach our children would be about the Savior, Jesus Christ. And I thought, really, that's the most important thing. That's what I want them to know.

Janelle [00:08:05] And so that was kind of it for me as far as the. I didn't continue to drill him and continue to ask him about all these what if scenarios or, you know, trying to predict our future. I felt that if he, you know, that if he wanted to teach our children about the Savior, that really, that's what it all came down to. And that was. That was good with me.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:33] So it's a pretty reassuring statement.

Janelle [00:08:36] Yeah, I felt very confident. Did I think it would. I didn't necessarily think it would be, you know, everything would be perfect, but I definitely felt like that was really the most important thing. So we had definite differences in the way we thought. I mean, Sabbath day things were an issue while we were dating

Natasha Helfer [00:09:07] as far as what was appropriate to do on the Sabbath.

Janelle [00:09:09] Yeah. He was definitely more willing to do more things on Sunday than I felt comfortable doing. So. But, you know, you're in love and take easy to overlook some of those things. And, you know, I always felt like there were. I wasn't perfect. I certainly wasn't expecting to marry somebody who was perfect. And there would be time for us to work on things and improve and,

Natasha Helfer [00:09:37] you know, so you just saw that as normal things that you would have to compromise on and figure out.

Janelle [00:09:44] Love someone.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:46] Yeah. Okay. And they weren't big enough things that obviously drew you away from him, so.

Janelle [00:09:52] Well, I felt that the core things, the really important things, the things to not get Ticci over were there. We shared a testimony and a belief in Jesus Christ, and that was, I don't know, pretty important to me.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:13] Right. Okay, so you guys go ahead and get engaged. Get married in the temple. Start your life together. This is how long ago? About 15 years ago, I think.

Janelle [00:10:28] Yeah, roughly. Yep.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:30] So when did this start or these kinds of issues start kind of becoming more problematic?

Janelle [00:10:38] Oh, within that first year or so of marriage. It was, you know, know, becoming, I guess, difficult. There were some frustrations that we had with one another. He didn't necessarily feel like he needed to go to church every Sunday. And we were living in an area where, you know, our church was far away. You know, the church we were to attend was quite, quite a ways away. And there was another one just down the road. But he felt like going to the closer one was totally fine. And I felt like we ought to attend, you know, the ward whose boundaries we were in. And it seems, you know, that may seem petty or even, like, not a big deal.

Janelle [00:11:34] And we can certainly say that looking back, but it was important to me. Yeah, it was important to me to do the things that we were asked to. We were certainly able. We were certainly, you know, capable of getting ourselves there. That was not a problem. And so I felt that that was important.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:56] So it's small things like this that start maybe driving, not a huge wedge, but maybe start bringing up some concerns or some disappointment in one another.

Janelle [00:12:08] Right. It becomes very clear that you're not on the same page and that there's some differences in attitudes and expectations maybe.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:21] Okay, so this continues for a while, these kinds of little things, or do you guys ever find yourselves, like, really having arguments about it or you just kind of get grumpy? I mean, how big of a deal was it as far as your communication together?

Janelle [00:12:42] Oh, this is something I think that we have struggled with our whole marriage. You know, me wanting to be more active than my husband felt the need to be. He felt that you didn't need to, like I said, go every Sunday. You didn't need to be a home teacher. You didn't need to go to the temple all the time. None of those things were not. He was not having a problem not doing all of those things.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:17] And was that due to. In your mind, was that due to the fact that he was having philosophical issues with the church, or was that more just his kind of lifestyle or what the things he wanted to do with his life?

Janelle [00:13:32] I think it was definitely more lifestyle. I think that he had other things he was interested in doing that, you know, I mean, church callings cut into your free time. And I think that was hard for him to give up time, free time. He's very, you know, conscientious.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:54] So you weren't having any big discussions about church history at this time or questioning?

Janelle [00:13:59] Not at all. Not at all. It was just that I think the frustration or aggravation of callings that are time consuming. And quite honestly, for certain people, they're uncomfortable. They're not. Everybody feels. Comfortable being a home teacher. Going into someone's home, you don't know and there's. They know why you're there. They know that you've been assigned to home teach them. And, you know, I think that was something that he was never comfortable doing. That it wasn't. It wasn't his own idea. It was an assignment. And I think he felt uncomfortable doing that, which, which I get. But it doesn't have to be that way either.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:56] Right. So things that maybe were important to you weren't as important to him, vice versa. And then you guys are just kind of finding yourselves just struggling in how to communicate about these things.

Janelle [00:15:09] Well, and I think you. I think we automatically, you know, assumed that, you know, I think he viewed me as, you know, you know, super hyperactive girl, and I viewed him as, you know, practically inactive. And so those, those weren't really where we were truly at. But I think we tend to exaggerate.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:37] And so you kind of put that way you labeled each other and you kind of maybe exaggerated in your.

Janelle [00:15:44] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:45] Because you weren't feeling validated, you kind of exaggerated where the other person was.

Janelle [00:15:49] Well, I think you're concerned and you, you exaggerate that discrepancy that is there, you know, where he is going. He is, you know, attending meetings, but, you know, maybe he's not doing everything that I would have liked. And so I'm, you know, exaggerating and saying he's doing nothing instead of recognizing what he is doing. And I think, yeah, the fear that that would happen or I think that all plays into. Plays into there. Look into that a little bit.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:30] Well, this is what I talk about with couples so often. As, you know, we get stuck in our focus on the stuff that, you know, isn't going well and the stuff that is going well, we just, we don't really. Well, that doesn't draw our attention as much because we're not concerned about those things. Right.

Janelle [00:16:47] Well, and by, you know, the standards, I think, you know, in ways that I was raised, in ways that he was raised and our attitudes about that, I mean, I, I kind of always hoped to be a little bit better. I wanted to improve and, you know, had things I wanted to work on and was very well aware of areas where I struggle and fall short. And just, I thought that that was something that we were doing together, where we were going to get better all the time. And I think he was very happy and felt like he was doing more than he had expected or saw himself or was even comfortable with or used to from his growing up experience.

Her Husband's Background and Faith Journey

Natasha Helfer [00:17:44] Are you comfortable telling me a little bit about his background or where he came from as far as what kind of. You kind of set the stage a little bit about where, you know, the home that you grew up in and some of the struggles you saw there and that how maybe that formulated your thoughts about your own marriage. What about him?

Janelle [00:18:02] He was raised in an LDS family as well. Both parents raised in the church with varying degrees, but served a mission again. So his father became disaffected with the church.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:26] At what point of your husband's growing up?

Janelle [00:18:29] You know, it was at different times, more so. So I think through different times, through his growing up. I think he was fairly active through most of my husband's younger years. But, you know, that's not been one I've really been able to put my finger on still. But I think he's always had some, you know, issues that he's. That have bothered him.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:06] Your husband or his father?

Janelle [00:19:07] You mean his father. Okay, his father. So, you know, these are things my husband saw growing up. I'm not sure. I don't think it was something that was really talked about in the home, but there was a. There's just a more casual way of doing things. And I don't know that. Like I said, I don't believe it was communicated. Okay,

Natasha Helfer [00:19:40] so then the mother in that home, his mother was the one that was more active or more involved in.

Janelle [00:19:46] And she grew up with, again, you know, LDS parents who really took her to church and basically dropped her off. And she determined from a young age that she was always going to be active in the church. And so she. Was the one who made that happen,

Natasha Helfer [00:20:14] who made it a priority. Right. Okay, so let's move ahead then, to how this becomes more of a formal disaffection for your husband and how that becomes more how he communicates that with you.

The Moment Her Husband Shared His Disaffection

Janelle [00:20:39] Well, he just, you know, He just came to me one day and said that he had needed to talk to me and shared that he'd been reading some things in preparation for Elders Quorum lesson and for Sunday school lessons that he was teaching at the time. And he had been reading some things that I was unaware of, things online and along those lines and just said he was 90% sure that the church was not true and said he was going to give it three more months and after that he was going to be done. And so I felt, you know, of course, that it was already done. I don't. I mean, I was glad for the three months.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:44] So. Meaning that he was going to look into it or research more or like, try to find answers Is that what he meant by the three months?

Janelle [00:21:54] You know, that's. I don't know exactly what he meant by the three months. I think that he was more than anything along those lines. He was letting me know that, like a timetable, at some point he wasn't going to be attending with me anymore. I think more to get me used to the idea that, you know, he wouldn't be there.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:19] Did you see this coming at all?

Janelle [00:22:21] Well, you know, how do you. In some ways, yes, because, you know, he looks up to his father a great deal. And I kind of, you know, always suspected or always worried that he would follow in this path. And I didn't expect it at this point. I expected it maybe later down the road.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:50] When he was older, you mean?

Janelle [00:22:51] Yeah, when he was older, not when we had little kids. And, you know, it's. So

Natasha Helfer [00:22:59] this happened how many years ago?

Janelle [00:23:02] About five and a half years ago.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:03] And how many children did you have at that point and their ages?

Janelle [00:23:07] We had three children.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:10] Which you still have.

Janelle [00:23:12] We still have. And that's. We still have three children. Our oldest had just turned six and our youngest was four months old.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] Okay.

Janelle [00:23:26] So little kids. And we were in the throes of, you know, teaching them, and I was enjoying that, you know, teaching them the gospel, and they were enjoying learning it.

Emotional Impact of Learning About His Doubts

Natasha Helfer [00:23:46] So can you create for us a little bit of the feeling or what this was like for you to have him sit you down and. And kind of share this with you? What was going on in your head or in your mind?

Janelle [00:24:03] Well, I think, to be perfectly honest, the first thing he says when he says he has to talk is I'm thinking he's had an affair. And so, quite honestly, this was. Even though I was devastated, I was devastated, but it wasn't the first thing that came to my mind.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:28] So as soon as he said, I need to talk, you knew something was bad. It was bad. Right.

Janelle [00:24:33] He's not a huge talker. I felt like we have great communication when we were dating and loved talking, and he's just not a huge talker. So he was definitely impressing me with that when we were dating. So, yeah, I knew by his tone, and I think he was nervous to tell me. He knew that this would be really hard for me. He knew that it wasn't going to be. It wasn't going to go over easy. And so I think he was worried about that, but felt like he needed to do that at some point, needed to get it over with. And so he did and just shared some of the things that he'd been reading and he was pretty unhappy because he felt like he'd been duped or. How can he not know these things?

Natasha Helfer [00:25:40] This is all getting into a lot of our historical issues with the church.

Janelle [00:25:44] Exactly. Historical issues, things with Joseph Smith, and just the way some things were handled in early church history and even some modern things that have been written regarding DNA and the Book of Mormon and things along those lines.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:01] Right.

Janelle [00:26:06] So I was pretty devastated, as putting it mildly. I was really. I had the rug pulled out from under me. And remember, when I look back at those times now, just remember being in a fog and just feeling a huge, heavy. Just a heavy heart I had at that time, a sense of hopelessness that. Things that I thought we were working on together, although far from perfect, that that hope was gone of the. You know, that keep moving forward, that working together towards something that was dashed pretty quickly and, yeah, that was just pretty hard, pretty heartbreaking time for me.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:01] Yeah. I remember many conversations we had during that time where, you know, your emotion was very raw. And I will say, just for the benefit of your husband, because I love your husband. I obviously know him as well, and he's a wonderful man and like you said, has many strengths and great father. And so by no means am I wanting to throw him under the bus with this interview, but just, you know, with the idea that we're really trying to kind of put out there this.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:39] How many couples are dealing with similar things and how it can be very heartbreaking and very emotionally wrenching. And it doesn't really have to do with anybody being bad or good or anything like that. It just. It's what it is.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:54] And so, yeah, I just. I do remember. And it wasn't something that went away for you very easily. In fact, still to this day, there are times that we. We still talk, and it's very. It's just very emotional for you.

Janelle [00:28:09] Yeah, it is. Really.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:10] It's.

Janelle [00:28:12] It's easily the hardest thing I've ever gone through. And, you know, I can talk about it now, but for a long time, it was really hard. It was. I couldn't. And I was angry. The devastation quickly gave way to feeling just really angry. And, you know, it felt very deliberate. It felt. I felt tricked. I felt. I felt like it was a personal attack on me. It took me a while to realize that this was not about me. This was not something that he had set out to do to me. This would have happened, most likely with anyone that he had married. It wasn't. It wasn't about me.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:05] Right.

Janelle [00:29:06] It wasn't done to me, just his decision, but it felt very done to me. That felt very. It was incredibly painful those first several months. And like you said, still it's not that continually raw feeling anymore. It has more episodes or more cycles.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:35] Yeah.

Janelle [00:29:36] Events, you know, are hard to get through. Certain events, certain lessons on Sunday are hard to get through. Certain questions are hard to deal with. The temple is harder for me than before. Wasn't hard for me before, but it's hard for me now. It's just changed some things I'm pretty sensitive

Natasha Helfer [00:30:13] about. Well, in a culture, in a Mormon culture where we put a lot of emphasis on family and we put a lot of emphasis on raising children in the church and we put a lot of emphasis on the eternal nature of these things, I can only imagine that it would be difficult.

Janelle [00:30:31] Right, right.

How Disaffection Began Affecting Daily Family Life

Natasha Helfer [00:30:37] So let's talk a little bit about how this started affecting the day to day life. You know, like you mentioned, he kind of gave you a three month time frame to maybe get used to this idea. But now things were going to change. Things that maybe you guys had to either discuss or compromise or maybe they weren't even up for compromise. Like, you know, are we going to go to church together? Are we not? What do we do about family home evenings, family scripture study, you know, prayers in the home, just, you know, all these little things that are so much a part of our family Mormon lifestyle that I know that you were very much trying to implement in your home. How did it start affecting all of those things?

Janelle [00:31:25] Well, you say start implementing. I mean, I think that those were, those were things that we, I don't think had successfully implemented. Those were always things I was trying and wanting to do, but I think, and always waiting like I think other wives sometimes do. You kind of wait for the priesthood leader to say it's time for family prayer or let's have family scripture study, let's have family home evening. And those things weren't happening and unless I did them. And so as far as big changes there, no, that was not a big change other than I now knew that if those things were going to happen, it was solely on my shoulders.

Janelle [00:32:12] And that was a relief in some ways to know that if these things, you know, that I needed to do them and so I did. And he loves our family. He doesn't want to miss out on things. He wants to be included and involved.

Janelle [00:32:36] And so if I plan a family home evening, if I say let's have a prayer, he is there, he will participate and do that he's not

John Dehlin [00:32:49] the

Janelle [00:32:49] one who's likely to call for those things, but he will. He will attend and he will participate.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:58] And you see that as a helpful thing, obviously. Well, I'm trying.

Janelle [00:33:03] I'm trying to look for, you know, the good that is there and, you know, try to, you know, I believe that Heavenly Father has some purpose in this, and I'm trying to look for that. And that's what I've come up with. That rather than it not being done because I'm waiting for it to happen, or we're waiting for him to feel comfortable or recognize that that needs to be done, I no longer have to do that.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:45] Did you ever have a sit down with him and say, look, these are the things that I'm going to do and you can either partake in them or not, but these are not up for discussion? Or did you actually sit down and say, so what are we going to discuss? Or has this just kind of evolved naturally?

Janelle [00:34:01] I did try to have a sit down. In fact, I had a nicely typed list of the things that I would like to have happen. And my husband is not really willing to be nailed down to some of those. To things like that, things that he knows may change later. He's not really willing to, you know, commit to or promise something that he does not know that he can deliver on.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:33] Yep. Can you share some of the things that were on your list or do you remember?

Janelle [00:34:38] I wish I could remember better things like participating in father daughter and father son events at church, you know, state camp outs or daddy daughter dates or things like that, that I still expected him to do. That participating in family home evening. I requested that he do what he needed to do so that he could perform ordinances so that he could baptize our kids. I asked for. I asked him to be respectful of my beliefs and to, you know, not. I wanted his attitude, too, about what I was still trying to do. Not be negative and not put. Not to put our children in the middle of choosing between mom and dad,

Natasha Helfer [00:35:46] that kind of thing, to support the fact that you were still believer, not to look down on you for that.

Janelle [00:35:53] And I didn't want any eye rolling, I didn't want any sighs or, you know, expressions when, you know, I talked about or shared things that were a very huge and important part of my

Natasha Helfer [00:36:12] life, especially in front of your children. Right.

Janelle [00:36:18] If I had a calling, I asked him to recognize my desire to volunteer and to serve and to be of help and to appreciate that and not, you know, treat it like a waste of time or that I'm doing something unimportant.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:40] And this list came because you were feeling these things or.

Janelle [00:36:45] Well, I felt like we needed to. I mean, we couldn't constantly be dealing with. I felt like addressing it beforehand would just make us that much stronger. We'd know. There wouldn't be any guessing. I'd know where he stood. We'd have a kind of a game plan as to how things would go compromising. I've had to learn to compromise more than I ever thought I would.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:22] Right. So talking about the marriage, if I remember correctly, there was a time when we were talking about this and your husband was with us. We were talking, all three of us together, and he said something along the lines of, he said to you, I don't want this to ruin our family. I strongly believe that we can still be a family. This was pretty early on, so I think the emotions were still pretty raw. Did you ever see this as a threat to your marriage? Did you see this? Did you consider leaving him or he you or did you ever think this would be something insurmountable?

Janelle [00:38:12] I think in my angry phase, you know, I wondered if that, you know, if maybe this wasn't going to work out, if these were just too. We were just too drastically headed to drastically different places. You know, being united spiritually and with a common goal is pretty important. And I did wonder if our marriage would stay intact and if I needed to look at, you know, if I should leave him.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:57] Because I think sometimes in a lot of the interviews I hear people who leave the church, they see this as kind of a weakness in the spouse. Like why would it be that only this changing should ruin a relationship? And although I see that part of it and I understand that the church shouldn't ruin a relationship, at the same time, I think that we sometimes don't validate these feelings of the spouse that it's not just, oh yeah, well, I just changed one or two thoughts about my church beliefs. And so what's the big deal? It really does affect, kind of like you're saying this idea of spiritual unity, of having common goals. And the Mormon lifestyle is exactly that, it's a lifestyle. And so it's changing many things that about your day to day kind of existence together.

Janelle [00:39:52] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:55] So what do you have to say about people who might criticize that or criticize the spouse for thinking of leaving or for considering divorce?

Janelle [00:40:06] Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think we, I think people have divorced for sillier things than that. I don't really know how to answer that

Natasha Helfer [00:40:27] other than those feelings were probably pretty real for you.

Janelle [00:40:30] They were very real. It was very. I felt very. I was devastated. I was, I. And it felt very personal. The thing that he knew from the beginning, he knew how important the gospel was to me and living it, and he knew how I felt about things. And I felt like the one thing that it was almost like the one thing that would hurt me the most, that it felt very intentional. I was not in a frame of mind yet to be. I wasn't rational. It was hurtful. So I wasn't really thinking that way. I was. Was more of a self preservation kind of feeling. And you know, I had friends who asked me if I was going to leave him.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:28] Church friends.

Janelle [00:41:29] Church friends. And before I'd really even thought about that option. But, you know, it doesn't. It didn't take long at all to, you know, to realize and to stop and think, this man wants to stay married. He loves me, he loves our children, he is a great dad. There are many good things. And that if I were to leave him. What am I saying about covenants in the temple that I've made? What am I. I'm saying those are not important. I'm saying that I can only love him if he believes the exact same way that I do. I feel like there's no room for. That's conditional love is what that is. And I felt like that's so contrary to the Savior and what he would have me do, that that was it. I didn't. I didn't ever think about that.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:48] What was it like to have friends bring that up? I remember you even sharing a little bit of anger about that or, you know, like, why would they put me in that position to think about that? Or. I don't know. I don't know if I'm not remembering that right.

Janelle [00:43:06] Well, I mean, I think it just. Yeah, it felt. I mean. And I think what. I think what it is, and it's what friends do is, I mean, they're feeling protective of me and. You know, just maybe thinking that maybe, I don't know, maybe that was something to consider. I don't like to. I don't want to think that. I don't believe that they were malicious.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:43] Oh yeah.

Janelle [00:43:45] But I. I think that when you. I think it was, I don't know,

Natasha Helfer [00:43:54] they see you hurt and so they want to help you not hurt anymore. Right.

Janelle [00:43:59] Well. And I think they value having an active, worthy priesthood leader in their home and can't imagine how hard it must be to not. And you wonder, would it be easier, would it be better to try again, start over? And I just felt like, you know, we hear our church leaders and our prophet just warning about the attack on the family. And I felt like this would be one way that I would be contributing to the demise of a family, that there was no, you know, I wasn't being abused. I was not in danger. I was not. I mean, there are situations where it is appropriate to end a marriage, but that this was not one of them. I felt strongly that that was the case.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:56] Right.

Janelle [00:44:57] I had a lot of assurance, reassurance from Rich that, you know, he did not. That he valued our marriage, that he did not want this to end. He, you know, wanted our family to pull through this and to be stronger because of it, and we could be a strong family and still have these differences. Was it going to be easy? No. But he, you know, felt that he could do it. So.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:32] Yeah, I think that that's been a pretty steady message, a pretty consistent message that he has given you throughout all these years.

Janelle [00:45:41] Right, right. Because I think where I was. I think where I've been, you know, hurt and feeling like we've both. Let me just put it this way, we've both given up to keep things working, and that's been. That's been good for us to do that. He's been very patient. And I think he tries to understand. He can't quite completely understand, but he tries, and we're still working on it. We don't talk about it all the time. We don't. I'm not crying all the time like I used to, but there are instances where, you know, we're faced with some things we need to talk about.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:49] Right. Well, and I think that he was, like you said, he knew that this would be difficult for you, but at the same time, I do believe also that he was surprised at the extent of how difficult it was for you.

Janelle [00:47:01] Yes, he. For sure, he thought that I would be over it much quicker than. And moving on a lot sooner. So he's been really. I mean, really. I mean, I was the one devastated by this, but he has been the supreme example of patience in letting me mourn this huge loss and, you know, trying to be patient.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:38] Kind of like the grieving process, just letting you kind of go through all those stages.

Janelle [00:47:44] Right. I mean, I think, of course, he wishes it was faster. He wishes it was not to the extent that it was, but. But it wasn't. Right. It was really hard.

Strains on the Marriage and Questions About Testimony

Natasha Helfer [00:48:00] One thing you mentioned Once is that. Well, with your, you know, you and your husband, like all of us with our spouses, have different personality traits. And, you know, I would definitely. Not that I love labels, but your husband is definitely an intellectual type person, very logical thinking, and that's a great strength of his. You mentioned one time, though, that maybe the weakness part of that is that this wasn't a devastating thing for him to go through necessarily. Like, he just kind of was very matter of fact about it. You didn't necessarily see him grieving his testimony or not at all.

Janelle [00:48:40] No, I feel like this was almost like a relief to him because of things he struggled to do anyway. So I don't. Yeah, I. I did not see this as a hard thing for him. His hardest. The hardest part for him was in telling me, but this is not something I saw him agonize over. It was not something that he was coming to me and saying, you know, let's, you know, this is significant and I need to fast about this and can we have a prayer together? And he was not struggling that way at all.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:24] And this is, again, something that, when I hear many of the interviews that especially have been talked about on Mormon stories and even John Dehlin's own experience is very different from that, that many people, you know, once they find out these things, it's just. It's as. It's as emotionally wrenching of an experience kind of as what you describe. However, I don't believe that's always the. And I think there are many people like your husband, where it's just kind of like, yeah, see, I kind of knew that all along, or I wasn't that attached to begin with or.

Janelle [00:49:55] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:56] You know, and so there's that part of it. And then I think for the spouse and something I remember hearing you say and even how you kind of set up this whole interview now, there were little things that, you know, you felt like, well, he's just not as committed or he's not as. And so you kind of start getting into the labels of, well, you're just lazy or you just don't want to do this, or you're not as spiritual or, you know, and I think those kinds of things maybe even affected the respect that you had for your husband.

Janelle [00:50:26] Oh, for sure, for sure. Absolutely. It was hard to trust that he would, you know, had our family's best interests at heart when he was abandoning something so core and so, you know, of great value to me in the rearing of our family. So I didn't. It changed that level for me.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:58] Right. And that some people. I guess what I just want to bring out is that there's so many stories all over the spectrum on this, you know, that there are the people who lose their testimonies and who have been, you know, out there doing either kind of the Molly Mormon or Peter priesthood type lifestyle and doing everything right, and then they come across information or situations and then it's this dramatic fall. But there are also many who aren't necessarily living every single aspect or expectation that the church has, which are many, and then the falling away is less, maybe emotionally traumatic for them in that sense. So there's just kind of. And not that that means they're lazy or unspiritual. It just means that there's all different types.

Janelle [00:51:44] Well, I think I find myself, you know, just wondering about, you know, what kind of testimony was there to begin with. Like, I obviously thought that there was one and felt, you know, confident, felt very good, and had, you know, spiritual reassurance that marrying my husband was what I should do. I just, I wonder about if he was able. If at any point he ever had a strong testimony or if he was able just to go through, you know, some of the motions and, you know, expecting that or thinking that that was there, but then really having nothing to rely on, you know, when these questions arose or when these things came to his attention. I don't know.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:48] So as the spouse of somebody who is more in this camp, how do you fight those feelings? Well, you know, if he would have just fasted more, if he would have been praying more, if he would have been reading his scriptures, if he would have been doing the, you know, 20 things that we're supposed to be doing, that the prophets. How do you come to terms with that? Or do you not. Or do you just see it as. Yeah, maybe if he would have been doing those things, he would still have a testimony, but that's just not the path he went down. Or how do you think about that? Well, that's.

Janelle [00:53:23] Without totally beating him up. I certainly don't want to disrespect or pick on him more than I'm probably already doing. I just. I don't think he was comfortable doing those things. I don't think he always knew how to do those things

Natasha Helfer [00:53:46] or that they elicited the same spiritual experiences that may for other people, those things do.

Janelle [00:53:51] Right. And so. It just, it was very. It was very seemingly simple for him to reach this conclusion. So. I kind of chalked it up to this is what happens when you don't, you know, do those things that we're taught to do, you know, those primary answers of reading the Scriptures and, you know, saying your prayers. And they're primary for a reason, because they're those basic things that we need to do to maintain that relationship with our Heavenly Father and keep that connection open is what I believe.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:43] Right. And so then how have you been able to either rebuild or begin to rebuild your respect for your husband with that belief in mind?

Janelle [00:54:57] Um, well, I don't know. It's kind of hard to go to my Heavenly Father and complain about my husband, who he loves as equally as he loves me. So recognizing and realizing that he is still a son of God, that he has. That he's maybe forgotten or doesn't realize who he is, but I know who he is, and Heavenly Father knows who he is. And just remembering that he's still of value, he is still of great worth and that I still love him.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:55] Right.

Janelle [00:55:56] Despite.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:59] Right.

Janelle [00:56:01] Where things are at. I don't know if that sounds too corny or too cliche.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:09] I think it sounds great.

Janelle [00:56:09] He is the son of God, but I believe that.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:14] Yeah. No, I've always thought so many of the things that you say are just very wise and, I don't know, just always touch something in me that. And this is part of why I asked you to do this, because I think you have all these very.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:36] I don't know, just tidbits of little things you say that are just very touching and I think cut to the core of a lot of these issues that I hope will be helpful to those who are listening to us.

Navigating the Marriage Through Faith Differences

Natasha Helfer [00:56:52] Okay, so let's talk now, then, about. We've talked a lot about kind of your marriage and how that relationship has struggled and continued. Let's talk a little bit about. You mentioned events and you mentioned lessons at church and now your relationship with your friends. And you did something, I thought very interesting early on, and you kind of called a meeting of sorts. You took charge. Are you comfortable talking about that and telling us what you did?

Janelle [00:57:31] Sure. I just decided. I mean, this had been probably a year and a year and a half later. And again, I'm still struggling. I'm still devastated and hurt. And, you know, I have visiting teachers who know that Rich isn't attending, but they don't really know what to say to me.

Janelle [00:57:58] They even friends who, you know, it's like anything, the loss of a loved one. You know, there's situations where you don't know what to say, and so you don't say Anything. And I just decided that I was going to be proactive and not make people guess or wonder. I was going to just be very forthright and let them know where things were, what was going on.

Janelle [00:58:29] And my hope was that. That, you know, they would have. There wouldn't be anything to talk about behind my back. Not that I think that that was going on, but certainly people were noticing that Rich wasn't, you know, at church with us or that I was struggling or any multitude of things.

Janelle [00:58:51] I just wanted to draw on their strength, I think, to maybe even share some of what I was going through. But. My biggest hope was that. These other women would be aware of my children and just be there to encourage and help them along.

Janelle [00:59:44] You know, these were women who were my dear, good friends and who were in the primary presidency and could certainly be sensitive to my children's situation and could knowledgeably. Is that a word?

Natasha Helfer [01:00:06] I think so, yes.

Janelle [01:00:08] They could answer questions. They would know what was going on, and so they could confidently say, this is what's happened, and it could just be dealt with very matter of fact. Instead of, you know, nobody knowing exactly what was going on or that kind of thing, I wanted to place my confidence in them and, you know, ask for their. Their help or their. Their sensitivity to the situation that I was going through.

Natasha Helfer [01:00:48] So you kind of created your own ritual, which I thought was genius, and called a meeting. Can you tell me exactly what were the formalities of that? Who did you approach first?

Janelle [01:01:01] I just asked a good friend of mine if she thought, you know, it's something I'd been thinking of doing is just opening this up. Nobody wanted to make me have to repeat it or explain it a hundred times. And yet they all wondered, I think, what was going on. And so I thought maybe I could just get everybody together and explain it all at once, and then they would never need to feel like they were talking behind my back or, you know, if they asked somebody what was going on or, you know, if they wondered

Natasha Helfer [01:01:39] which out of concern is what we are. We do. We do this. Right.

Janelle [01:01:43] Right. I wasn't even worried about. I was. I just thought that it would be. I just wanted to be proactive. I wanted to have some control in the situation I had very little control in. I wanted to. I wanted to be. I just wanted to, like I said, be proactive. I didn't want to. I didn't want to see myself slowly feel uncomfortable or feel like I'm. I don't belong. And so I wanted to just. I wanted to share that with them.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:23] And surprisingly, you met a tad bit of resistance, if I remember.

Janelle [01:02:30] I think some people were worried about that I would. That I was going to just. Rich would be raked over the coals and. And, yeah, I had to clarify and make sure that he would. They knew that he was aware that I.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:52] That you were doing this.

Janelle [01:02:54] Doing this. It was not any. You know, that wasn't even my thoughts at all to go and speak badly of my husband. It was just to be just basically informative, to hear it directly from me so that there would be no doubt or question as to where things really were and to kind of. I mean, I felt it to be. I wanted it to be. Sharing, kind of like I was entrusting this. This thing that was kind of embarrassing and definitely not something I was viewing as a positive, but that I was opening that up and in a more

Natasha Helfer [01:03:51] forthcoming way and just kind of putting it on the table.

Janelle [01:03:55] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:03:57] Instead of all this dancing around. We do sometimes.

Janelle [01:04:00] Right. So that they wouldn't. I guess. Yeah. So that they would just. They would know it from me, where things were at.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:07] And

Janelle [01:04:09] I meant it to be inclusive to them. I was, like I said, opening up something that was pretty tender and sensitive to me. And my intention was that. That would

Natasha Helfer [01:04:27] make things easier in the long run and. Right.

Janelle [01:04:31] Thanks for filling in my words when I seem to be able to get them. I talked with Rich, and he was. I mean, I think he. The poor guy struggles with how to even know how to help me deal with this extreme sadness. And so I think he was supportive of anything that would make it easier for me. And if talking to friends and explaining it matter of factly would do that, then he was completely supportive.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] Right.

Building a Support Group for Believing Spouses

Natasha Helfer [01:05:09] So you got. You decided to do this in a. In a friend's home. You pretty much invited most of the Relief Society sisters that you knew pretty well. Is that kind of how it went?

Janelle [01:05:20] I probably had a dozen of my closest friends there.

Natasha Helfer [01:05:30] And how did it go?

Janelle [01:05:31] Oh, I think it was fine. There was definitely tears. I had a good friend of mine, She just kind of conducted, if you will, and I had written down my thoughts because I knew that I would do what I'm doing right now and not be able to talk very well. And I just shared with them. I don't know why I'm crying now about this. This was nothing. I just shared with them where I was at. And we. They asked me some questions that were, you know, everything was very appropriate and very, very considerate, very sensitive, very lovingly done, and we pray together. And we went around about the rest of our day.

Natasha Helfer [01:06:58] So release Society in action.

Janelle [01:07:01] Yeah, it was nice for me just to be able to say this is where it is and, you know, this is what would be helpful and that kind of thing.

Natasha Helfer [01:07:24] Right? Yeah. Like I said, I thought it was a genius plan. That was very helpful. I wish we had more things like that that we could somehow tap into on a more, like I said, ritual level. Right. We have rituals to help us in all of our celebrations, but the only ritual I really know of to help us in sadness is a funeral. And there's so many other sad things that sometimes we need kind of more formal gatherings around to be able to help us process and get through things.

Janelle [01:08:03] I felt that need to be, like you said, the Relief Society in action to bear one another's burdens. How can we bear them if we don't know what they are? And I mean, I shared at that time that, you know, I know I'm not the only one with problems and that I would, you know, I would be happy to be there and to help in others circumstances or situations where they're struggling. Some struggles are more visible than others. Mine happens to be, I mean, something that feels very visible to me. It's obvious that I'm at church alone and, you know, people started asking where Rich was and things like that.

Natasha Helfer [01:09:09] And

Janelle [01:09:12] I just thought this meeting was a way to just to reach out and place my trust and confidence in the strength of all those good women.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online@mormonstories.org if you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin, as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even word situation through discovering mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton.

Janelle [01:10:17] Nearer my God to thee Nearer to thee Even though it be across thee still oh, oh, my song shall be Nearer I go to thee Nearer my go to Nearer to thee.

Part Two Begins: Life as a Believing Wife

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 208

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Mormon Stories podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org

Natasha Helfer [00:00:15] can you

Janelle [00:00:15] talk a little bit about. I can't talk at all. I'll try.

Natasha Helfer [00:00:24] Now, I know you said you'd be concerned about becoming emotional, but I, you know, I welcome your emotion because I think it's so. And I appreciate your willingness to be this vulnerable on such a public forum because I think that these are the emotions that, you know, I see so often and people that are really hurting and struggling. So I really appreciate that, Janelle, for you to be willing to do this.

Natasha Helfer [00:00:59] So, yeah. Through your sniffling, can you tell me what, you know, when people started asking questions like where's Rich? Or what's going on with Rich? Or you know, just kind of people who are trying to say something. Like you said, people don't know always what to say. And, and this is a whole other issue is helping to, you know, helping people know what's appropriate or inappropriate in these situations. But what kinds of things did you find helpful to, to kind of say back to, to these types of questions?

Janelle [00:01:31] Oh, I was just, you know, he's not, he's not coming. He's, he's not coming anymore. I was pretty, I, you know, everyone always, they just assumed he was traveling with business or maybe he wasn't feeling well. So all very well intentioned questions. You know, they see me struggling with a six month old or a, you know, an on up and they just, you know, are there to help and they would ask, where's Rich? And I just said, he's not, you know, he's not coming anymore. And they were always surprised and. You know, I would always get a hug and, and I'm so sorry to hear that. And what else? You know, what else? They didn't need to say anything else. It was, that was

Natasha Helfer [00:02:42] okay.

Janelle [00:02:43] Yeah, that was totally fine. And I never felt the need to, you know, make up anything or.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:58] You were pretty honest about it from the.

Janelle [00:03:01] Yeah, I didn't.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:04] Yeah.

Janelle [00:03:04] I don't think I had the emotional energy to try to concoct a story.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:12] Sure. What about the priesthood? Like, did you guys go in and talk to your bishop or did they come to you or try to convince him or.

Janelle [00:03:22] We went to our bishop right away and Rich explained, you know, the trial that he was having with his faith, how he described it and wanted to be released right away from his calling, which was teaching. Oh boy. I think he was teaching Book of Mormon and coming up on church history the next year, and did not feel that he could honestly do that, and so he asked for that release. That did not happen right away. I think our poor bishop was surprised and, you know, of course, worried for me and worried for Rich, but everything in that area was, I think, handled very well under the circumstances. That's just hard for everybody.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:24] Right. You know, and did your husband ever feel offended by any of the church leaders or anything like that, or did he pretty much understand where they were coming from? And

Janelle [00:04:37] I think he was. I think he was fine. I don't believe he was ever offended. He is so. He's hard to offend. He's very easygoing, very, you know, just naturally inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt and does not really take offense. And our bishop was a good friend, and so.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:05] Right.

Janelle [00:05:06] I think it probably went as well as can be expected. I think we were, you know,

Natasha Helfer [00:05:15] of

Janelle [00:05:15] course, I think he was disappointed to hear that this was where Rich was at and, you know, didn't want that for our family. But I think he tried to get us through, you know, the best that anyone could.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:33] Right.

Janelle [00:05:33] This isn't something you're really trained to deal with as a bishop. Here's this crying wife and this husband who's saying he's done.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:46] Right.

Janelle [00:05:47] It's hard stuff.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:49] Right. He's trying to reach out to both of you and.

Janelle [00:05:52] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:54] So. So you also mention. And through the years, you've mentioned many kind of, just like you said, you know, lessons and messages or even the fact, I think, you know, you're in your Relief Society presidency right now, and at least in your ward, it seems like you're one of the only ones who's kind of in this position, at least who's active. And just some of the loneliness that comes with that or some of the idea that you're. That idea that you're different, or maybe that you don't fit in the way you want it to, or can you talk about what lessons are hard to listen to and what situations? Just being an active member, what do you face?

Janelle [00:06:44] Oh, I mean.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:47] Right.

Janelle [00:06:48] I have really amazing friends. Maybe that's the difference. Maybe I need to start slumming it. But you're right. All my friends. My friends husbands are our bishop. They're in our stake presidency. They are high counselors. They're good men. And I am the only one in this situation. So I do feel.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:27] In your ward.

Janelle [00:07:29] Right. Like the oddball or the odd man out, you know, talking about dates to the temple or those kinds of things are, you know, I'm not sharing in those. It's not a lot. It's not unlike someone who doesn't have children and what they go through, hearing people and friends talking about the joys of, you know, raising children. So it's very similar to that, I imagine just something that I'm not experiencing. And

Natasha Helfer [00:08:13] people just talk about on a regular basis, just kind of as part of our basic culture.

Janelle [00:08:18] Right. Important, good things that they're involved in. And. And yeah, so those are a little rugged to. Be around or to listen to. But it's. But I'm okay. I don't, you know, I don't. I don't have to get up and leave or anything.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:46] Right.

Janelle [00:08:47] I'm just in a different situation. So I wouldn't not want to hear about those things either. I wouldn't ever want them to feel like they couldn't talk about those things. It's just there's that little twinge or that little pang of. Sadness.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:07] Sure. And what about actual messages that are coming from church itself as far as lessons or programs or. I don't know.

Janelle [00:09:25] I'm pretty okay. I don't think I want to give any lessons on the temple or priesthood right now. I hope that won't always be the case, but those are tender. Those are just kind of topics that I think would be hard for me to stand up and talk about right now as a teacher.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:51] And you're comfortable letting your presidency know that and to tell them that that's a boundary you need to set right now.

Janelle [00:09:59] Yeah. And they're so, really. They're so. They've been. Everyone really has been very kind and very, very aware that there's some things that will be hard for me or some things that, you know, I just can't do. I can't attend a welfare meeting on Sunday before church because I'm the one getting my children ready. So there's just some things that I can't do, and my family comes first. And I've never even had to assert that in any way, even close.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:50] Yeah. I think this is such an important thing to be talking about is. It's just kind of, again, the things that both men and women in your position can hopefully, hopefully communicate to the leaders in their ward, what their limitations are, where they need support, and how they can still serve and be a wonderful part of the ward. I would hate for people in your situation to feel like, well, because I have these limitations, or I do need to choose the church in front of my Family or just those kinds of ideas. That this is not okay to say, no, I can't attend welfare meetings, that it is okay to say those kinds of things that you're needing at a specific time, or it is okay to turn down a talk or a lesson.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:41] Like, I'd love to give a talk, but maybe not on this topic or, you know, and to be able to say those things as part of your self care. Right.

Janelle [00:11:52] Well, I don't think that our leaders want us up there crying or struggling to get through something that we just. That is just too sensitive. And maybe it won't always be that way, but. But for me right now, there are some things that are right.

Talking With the Children About Dad's Disaffection

Natasha Helfer [00:12:10] Okay, so we've talked about your marriage, We've talked about yourself. Let's get to the kids. Which when I was just recently at this Sunstone symposium, It seemed like 80% of the questions directed to both me and John had to do with what do we do with the kids and the struggles, you know, just parenting and when people have a different idea of how to parent or what to teach, how to be honest yet respectful, you know, all these very difficult kind of things to maneuver. So let's get started on how that's been like for the two of you.

Janelle [00:12:56] Okay, what specifically?

Natasha Helfer [00:13:01] Well, let's just start with what you feel, how you guys have come to an agreement about what it is that you're comfortable teaching your children. Like, did he ever, you know, say, well, I don't want my children taught these things that I feel, you know, are lies or untruths? Or did he ever come up and say, well, I want to teach them these things along with other things, you know, how did you guys kind of. Or are you still maneuvering all that?

Janelle [00:13:34] I think we are still maneuvering some of that. I think Rich has been, you know, he. I take the kids to church every Sunday and I, you know, that's just something that I do.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:53] And he's never given you a hard time about that? He's never said, I don't want my kids attending church or no, he, it's.

Janelle [00:14:03] I mean, I know that he would much prefer that we stay home and go, you know, do something, but he realizes that this is important to me. And, you know, I feel like this was, you know, we, our marriage, you know, we started in a certain place and that I don't, I don't know that the disaffected member can just all of a sudden say they can say it, but Rich has never said that.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:44] And like all of a Sudden change all the rules and start giving ultimatums.

Janelle [00:14:50] The basis of your relationship is, you know, formed and, you know, covenants are made and uncertain. There's a certain understanding that comes along with, you know, getting married in the temple and things that, how your life would progress from that point and to all of a sudden because you're changing. To expect everybody else to change is just not really an option. And I think he knows me well enough to know that that would not have gone over on top of, you know, how devastated I was to start saying things along those lines. I'm sure he would prefer that they not.

Janelle [00:15:37] And I think two of our children have been baptized since and he usually, he has taken them aside and has talked to them about some of the things that he thinks, but he's been very clear that this is their choice. And so I really try to take that as a positive.

Janelle [00:16:02] I don't know if there are two children who have really had a black and white choice or two complete choices laid out in front of them prior to their baptism as an 8 year old. And. They are, you know, they completely made that choice to get baptized.

Janelle [00:16:33] I don't want to say Rich wouldn't, didn't support that, but he wanted them to have, you know, a small eight year old level understanding of where he

Natasha Helfer [00:16:42] was coming from and that this is a choice.

Janelle [00:16:46] Right. And. That he feels differently about it now that he doesn't, you know, see things the same way. And I wasn't present during this conversation that he had. It wasn't secretive and knew what was going on and what he was talking to them about, but he needed to have that time to communicate where he was coming from with them. And so that's what he did. And that's one way we have dealt

Natasha Helfer [00:17:29] with kind of a Mormon ritual.

Janelle [00:17:32] Right. I don't know if it's effectively dealing with it, but that's how we have handled that. And I don't think he wasn't disappointed either that they did want to be baptized. He's very respectful of different views and much more so than I am. I've had a harder time. So he's a good example to me in that.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:02] Right. And what about the coming out per se, if you want to call it that. How did your children find out that this was happening? Did you guys sit down and talk to them and say, yeah, dad had this epiphany and he's no longer going to come to church with us, or did you just kind of start behaving differently and they just kind of picked up on things or how have you guys handled that?

Janelle [00:18:28] When he wasn't in the van with us on the way to church, they pretty much noticed that

Natasha Helfer [00:18:37] and would ask you questions.

Janelle [00:18:39] Right. I wasn't really at a stage at that point to be able to. I wasn't really able to talk to them. I mean, I was, you know, your six year old says, where's dad? And I'm just in tears. I can hardly explain. And I would just say, you know, he's not gonna come with us. And they were very sad. The part with my children is the hardest part for me, answering their little questions. And I don't want them missing out on anything. And that's where it affects my children is the hard part for me. So it's a super sensitive area in an already sensitive

Natasha Helfer [00:19:32] situation.

Janelle [00:19:36] So he has come to their baptisms. He was not, he did not baptize them. They wanted, you know, that was their choice. Their first choice would be have been to have their dad baptize them. But he had, you know, a conflict with his personal integrity and not being able to do perform that ordinance, which can respect.

Janelle [00:20:09] But that was pretty, that was pretty rugged to, You know, not have their dad perform that. And you know, the next, you know, people that they requested were people who were also unable because of disaffection to perform that ordinance. And so that was heartbreaking. That was really hard for me. And I finally, you know, we had this discussion so many times and they keep asking if, you know, their dad can baptize them. And I finally just said that, you know, it's.

Janelle [00:20:59] It doesn't necessarily matter who baptized you. Of course it's great when fathers can baptize their children. I have no. Not making that my issue, but I did say to them that Jesus wasn't baptized by his father. And that's not what the important part is. The important part is that you are entering into this promise that you're wanting to make and as a, as a sign that you are willing to follow Jesus. And the most important thing is getting baptized. And so.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:40] Right.

Janelle [00:21:41] But that was just heartbreaking. And I felt, I mean, I feel kind of frustrated sometimes because it's not Rich who's hearing these conversations and having to, you know, he, they would. They talk to him certainly. And they certainly have mentioned it, but I just felt like repeatedly I was dealing with this, you know, how kids questions and the same ones over and over and I'm just continually having to have this salt poured in my wound by, you know, trying to explain or trying to, you know, answer their sincere questions and not always knowing if I'm doing it right without wanting to make them feel bad about their dad. They don't want that at all. I don't want them to have any reason to feel bad about their father. That's so counter. It goes so against what we. What we believe and the value of each family member, but it's hard to answer those questions. So,

Natasha Helfer [00:23:08] yeah, I think one of the things that I probably admire most about your parenting is the honesty that you. You're very forthcoming with your children, appropriately so, you know, for their developmental stages. And I think that's something sometimes that people in these situations struggle with is how honest, you know, do we need to be? And, you know, so I think that's. That is that it's a struggle.

Janelle [00:23:34] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:35] I think you do it very well and.

Janelle [00:23:38] Oh, I don't know.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:39] I think you do. But there's a lot of. I mean, I just, you know, over the years, your children have come up with a lot of different questions, and it sounds like sometimes they even put, you know, their father on the spot or, you know, why won't you do this or that, or how does he deal with that?

Janelle [00:23:57] I think he gets. I mean, poor guy, if you can imagine, a deer in the headlights, because there I am and there they are. And he wants everyone to be happy. He really does. And he is just. There's just no way it can, you know, including himself. He needs to be able to speak truthfully to them. And yet he knows how I'm hurt and how it's hurtful to me. So it's tricky. He tries to answer them without going into too much and just to give them his honest answer in a simplified form.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:40] While, you know, which you support, you support him being, like you said, having a voice, being able to say at least some things.

Janelle [00:24:50] Right. And I'm sure, you know, being respectful of where. What I'm trying to teach them, it's very difficult.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:58] Right.

Janelle [00:24:59] You know, not undermining what, you know, the value that. That I have place on things. It's. It is a huge balancing act. And I'm not sure that, you know, we always know the right thing to say or do in these situations, but.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:21] Right. That was something that was brought up a lot too, at this conference I attended, was this idea of confusing the kids, you know, that how do we. Are we going to confuse the children? I loved a comment of one of the women. I think she's like, of course we're going to confuse the Children. She was very upfront about that. But at the same time, you know, is that something you worry about, or is that something. How do you try to lessen that? Or.

Janelle [00:25:47] I think that, I mean, there are conflicting messages all around us. I, you know, I am really trying not to worry about things down the road a whole lot. I will go crazy. And so I have just decided that I can only do the best I can do and that, you know, I will do all I can to teach them the principles of the gospel that they need to know and understand. And I can't worry about what they eventually choose

Natasha Helfer [00:26:36] their own testimonies.

Janelle [00:26:37] You mean I can't. Like I said, I can do my best to teach them, to give them opportunities to experience the Holy Ghost, to recognize and point that out to them, but I will go crazy, Natasha, if I sit and think and worry about the. All the possibilities, I can't do that.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:09] Right, yeah. And along those same notes, do you see anything positive that could come out of this for the kids? I mean, there is so much fear, right. And so much angst about the unknown. And how's their father's ideas or testimony going to affect my children's ideas? But can you see any positives as well, as far as kind of like you said, the world is full of contradictions and they're going to have to go out in the world. And how could this experience maybe prepare them in that sense?

Janelle [00:27:42] Well, I mean, definitely things that,

Natasha Helfer [00:27:47] I

Janelle [00:27:48] mean, they're getting a little taste of some. Some of the things that they will probably be faced with down the road. You know, I think one thing that some disaffected members that I have spoken with, I mean, one thing was learning some unflattering things about the prophet Joseph Smith and how for some people who held him on such a high pedestal, learning these things was devastating and affected their whole thoughts and feelings and testimony on Joseph Smith. I feel like because of where Rich is at, we've already had occasion to talk about the fact that Joseph Smith was a man, he was not perfect. And so I'm hoping that those things will not be so devastating to them

Natasha Helfer [00:28:49] as they're not going to be taken.

Janelle [00:28:52] They're not just going to be floored by some of these things that we don't really openly talk about in our Sunday settings or a lot of other places. But they will, you know, have some, you know, understanding about some of those things. I hope that they become more tolerant. I hope that they learn compromise and flexibility. I hope that they see those as good Things I hope that they always, you know, they. They know that they have a great dad who loves them. So I don't think they'll ever have to. To question. To question that this has no, you know, no ties. You know, Rich's disaffection with the church has nothing to do with how much he loves them.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:55] Right. I also remember you one time saying something along the lines of, I don't want my children to be perceived kind of like as a special case at church, you know, where they have to feel, like you said, sometimes how you feel an oddball or kind of out of place or. We don't feel.

Janelle [00:30:14] I'm extra needy because, you know, of my circumstances. So I don't want. I mean, we all want to be the capable and, you know, we've got it all together and, you know, who wants to be brought up at welfare meeting, you know, and that's just part of my own pride issues. But this is something, I mean, I can't control. This is not something that, you know, I have any choice in the matter. It is what it is. And I realize that, you know, if we do need to be talked about at welfare meeting or whatever, that it's. I have no doubt that it's lovingly done and for our family's welfare, it's not. You know,

Natasha Helfer [00:31:18] I'd stand with good intentions

Janelle [00:31:19] and not gossipy or whatever, but I don't think people can help but feel, you know, a little sad that this is happening. So there are elements of feeling sorry for me or for us, but I just feel like it's compassionate. It's not. I don't know. I'm not looked down on, I guess. Maybe I am. I don't know it. But I don't feel that way.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:59] Well, that in of itself says a lot. So anything else that you feel you want to share about as far as kids or parenting or.

Janelle [00:32:16] Well, there's lots of things, but you would probably need to ask me specifically. I don't know.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:21] Okay. I can't think of anything specifically. You have great kids, and I think that all of us as parents need to compromise at some level with our spouse as far as how to parent. And this just is a topic that maybe you didn't foresee having to compromise on, but.

Janelle [00:32:43] No. And it. It's by far the hardest aspect of this.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:48] That's the whole issue. Yeah.

Janelle [00:32:50] Is how it affects my children. And that was. And I knew that was going to be the case. You know, I'm fine. I can do what I need to, but when it affects my kids, that's just an entirely different ball game.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:06] Right.

Janelle [00:33:06] And like I said, Rich has been, you know, good at allowing me to. And I even hate using the word allow because, well, you know, me and.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:25] Has been supportive.

Janelle [00:33:27] Has been supportive and I've tried to be supportive of times when, you know, there's a specific thing that he has planned. For example, just a couple weeks ago, he and our son did a long bike ride, 160 mile bike ride. And they did it in a long weekend and they were together and completing the last day of the bike ride on Sunday.

Janelle [00:34:04] And to be honest, it was hard for me. I took my daughters and we were at church and had plans to meet them later that evening so that we could bring them home. But it was hard for me to not have my son. But he was with his father and they were doing something together and memorable and meaningful. And I'm just not going to feel bad about those experiences that he is having with his dad. Do I wish it was different? Absolutely.

Janelle [00:34:44] I just, you know, I think heavenly Father knows the intents of our hearts and he just, he knows. I believe the particular challenge that this is and I believe that there are good things that can happen on Sundays.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:13] Right. Well, it kind of brings to mind my thought always that many times we're asked to do things that you wouldn't think would conflict, but in the end do conflict. You know, classic Adam and Eve, you know, don't eat the fruit, but, you know, let's progress kind of thing. Right.

Janelle [00:35:33] Really, you're supposed to eat the fruit so that children and multiply punish the earth.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:38] Right. So things like that, that I feel like, you know, here you are in a position where you have two good things that you kind of have to choose. You know, this idea of more the classic, you know, we go to church every Sunday type of mentality and how we are to keep the Sabbath day holy. And yet you have this other thing to choose, which is your husband and your family values of, like you said, sharing, you know, things together as a family and giving your children opportunity to develop their relationship with their father in ways that he. That are important to him. Two things that I think, you know, have value and yet there's still a choice to be made. So. Yeah, that's. That's a great example of. Of how there's compromise on both sides.

Janelle [00:36:26] Well, I hope that that's. I hope it's a good example of that because like I said, I completely admit that it's not. It was not my first. It's not what I was initially happy about, but it's. I'm happy to say it did not take me long to realize that this was a good thing that they could do together. And I wasn't going to feel bad

Natasha Helfer [00:36:58] about it, and you weren't going to stand in the way of it. Mm. Mm.

Janelle [00:37:01] I didn't. I put up, if you can imagine, absolutely no fight. I was totally fine and supportive of that time for them to be together.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:18] Right.

Janelle [00:37:23] And I think Rich is respectful of, you know, he tries to recognize that, you know, I feel the need to be active and to be, you know, to my meetings on Sundays.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:39] Right. So alluding to that. That idea that you said on your initial list that you were asking Rich to be respectful of your beliefs and not do the eye rolls and not look down on you, I think this is an issue that comes up with the couples I see a lot, is this idea that the person who has become disaffected is now the enlightened one. Right. They're the intellectual one, or they've seen the.

Advice for Disaffected Spouses and Believing Partners

Janelle [00:38:13] And they've made this huge discovery.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:17] And the rest of us.

Janelle [00:38:18] How can you not see it?

Natasha Helfer [00:38:19] Right. And so, you know, so then there's kind of this idea of almost putting down the spouse or. Yeah. How can you still believe this? This is so stupid, or this is dumb, or, you know, even making it worse, like you're stupid or you're dumb because, you know, you still believe these things. So walk me through a little bit about. Well, first of all, you know, how whether or not that ever really was an issue for you guys, but then even more so, what was it like for you and your own testimony? Because I know that when I speak with a lot of spouses, they kind of have a lot of doubts start, you know, sparking up. And what is this? And some of this information, they weren't aware of either. And how did you deal with some of that?

Janelle [00:39:08] Well, I definitely. I mean, when he came to me with some of this information and wanted me to, you know, know what he was basing his decisions and his feelings on, you know, and I wanted to be supportive, and I wanted to understand more than anything.

Janelle [00:39:30] And so I read. I did a lot of reading, and, you know, some I could get through better than others. Some of it is. It just felt too antagonistic. It was very. There was a feel in the way some of this literature is written.

Janelle [00:39:51] It's anti Mormon literature. And I just felt like after a time that what it boiled down to for me was that I had a Testimony. I had served a mission. I had had experiences with confirmation from the Holy Ghost as to what was true and what was right. And I did not feel good reading these things. It didn't.

Janelle [00:40:29] I mean, I felt like it helped me, you know, recognize and understand where he was coming from. And it helped me. I was still able to love the gospel and not feel I didn't need Joseph Smith to be perfect to love the gospel. And.

Janelle [00:41:05] That's, that's kind of where I haven't been doing a lot of the reading, quite honestly. It was, it's. It was emotional for me to go there. It was more again, pouring salt in the wound like I could not.

Janelle [00:41:21] I was, I was devastated in dealing with how it was affecting my life and the changes that it was bringing without having to heap extra doses on, of spending a lot of time researching and studying and raising little kids and trying to get through this crisis that I was feeling. Does that make any sense?

Natasha Helfer [00:41:54] Oh, yeah. Did you find that he wanted to talk to you about these things a lot or were you guys both able to kind of just say, okay, we have differences of opinion?

Janelle [00:42:03] And yeah, I think there was that. The recognizing that there was just some differences and you know, you, you can't, you can argue these things if you would like to, but, you know, I knew where I stood. I knew, Like I said, I'd had experiences that I could not deny. And. It didn't really, I didn't really need to go into all these books, all this, all this, all the information that is out there.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:49] Right.

Janelle [00:42:50] If you can, if you call it that. I don't know what to call it.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:54] Yeah, some of it information, some of it history, some of it, like you said, is antagonistic. Some of it is just basic. It's just. There's a lot of different, A lot of different things I remember as part of. And I'm assuming it was part of that three month process. Both you and your husband approached me and my husband and wanting us to maybe read some of these things as well, just to have somebody to talk to about these things. That's another maybe, I don't know, maybe cultural phenomenon that happens, that anything that maybe seems anti church is frowned upon and therefore there's not this ability to be open and frank about having these types of discussions within our ward communities. Or are you able to talk about that?

Janelle [00:43:53] I guess I'm remembering that Rich had approached you. I guess I'm not really. I might have been out of that loop a little bit. I'm not really. I have no real experiences that I can.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:13] You don't recall that so much?

Janelle [00:44:15] No.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:18] Yeah. I just remember him having a desire to be able to talk about these things with, you know, his peers and not finding many places to be able to do that. I think my husband did a better job of that than I did as far as getting back to him. I definitely did a lot of reading at that time, too, and some of it I knew, some of it was new as well to me.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:47] I just remember starting a lot of conversations between my husband and I, and also with your husband and us, and even me and you have discussed a lot of these types of things and how we come to terms, you know, still as active, believing members with some of our history and what matters and doesn't matter and all that kind of stuff. But it seems like only among close friends is that more doable. It's not necessarily conversations I would feel comfortable just kind of spurring in Sunday school or.

Janelle [00:45:22] No, it seems like in those settings, it's really only the super safe topics that are, you know, comfortably brought up. That if you truly have, you know, a real question or something you just wonder about or you've heard, that's definitely not the safe place to voice that question. So it is hard. It's hard to talk about it. And we're counseled to, you know, stay away from things that are negative or harmful to our testimonies or, you know, that kind of thing.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:00] Right. Yeah. In fact, I remember speaking with my own bishop at that time, just in passing, mentioning that I was reading some of these books like, no man Knows My History. Or, you know, just basic. Not anything, really, just historical books. And I remember his kind of shy, yeah, why, Sister Parker, are you reading that?

Natasha Helfer [00:46:31] And that's always kind of surprised me, I guess. I have an intellectual, logical father myself who was the reason why we are members of the church. He's the convert. And I remember in the height of the whole 90s fiasco at BYU, where several professors were getting excommunicated and being fired from their positions because of intellectual reasons, things that they were publishing or writing or teaching about that weren't in complete accordance with church teachings, and I remember my father's one comment that has kind of stuck with me. And he said, if our church is true, what are we so afraid of?

Natasha Helfer [00:47:17] Rich's invitation to read what he was reading never scared me. It was more, okay, well, let's just see what all is out there, and let's start figuring all this out and thinking about things. And I've Always taken the advice from the Book of Mormon to be true, that we need to ponder and think and ask and study, and we've been given our brains for a reason. So that's always been my approach. So for me, it was.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:47] It was. I enjoyed Rich's invitation to join him in the intellectual part of his journey through some of our history and questions he had about that. But I don't think that's always the case.

Janelle [00:48:02] Well, I don't think that was the case for me. I certainly did not enjoy his invitation to do that.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:07] Yeah, well, I wasn't married to him,

Janelle [00:48:08] so I think it was too emotional for me. It really. It just was. It was too. I. I was too sad. And quite honestly, there wasn't. I mean, I did, you know, I did talk with friends, like at this meeting that we talked about earlier. I did, you know, I had people who knew, but I didn't have anybody to talk to who had gone through or was going through this. I felt there wasn't anybody for me to share experiences with or to let me know they lived through it and all that. I was just at a much more. It was emotional for me. I couldn't have done that at the same time.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:59] So in a way, you and Rich were in the same position as far as not having access anyway to other people who were feeling and living what you were feeling and living at that moment.

Janelle [00:49:14] Right. And I think that's improved over the last several years. I think there are sites that can help people going through what I'm going through, but I don't believe there was at the time.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:28] Right.

Janelle [00:49:31] I certainly didn't know how. What I was finding was the anti. Type of sites.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:38] Right.

Janelle [00:49:41] Support group for this. And that's not what I was finding.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:49] Yeah. Things like Stay LDS or Faces east, all these kind of sites now that help people kind of through these struggles, or at least have other people who are struggling with the same things, and you can kind of reach out to each other. And I'm assuming these are only about three to four years old. I'm not exactly sure, but.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:09] So, yeah, your situation, I think, happened right before some of this stuff started developing. All right, well, kind of in wrapping up our. Our interview here, I guess I'd like to end kind of on the notes of the idea that others are listening to this who may be struggling with very similar situations as you and Rich did. And maybe what, you know, sounds of advice you could throw out there. So, for instance, if somebody is in Rich's situation and is, you know, realizing that they really no longer have a testimony in the church and they don't have the same feelings that they used to have about it.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:00] What are your thoughts as far as how they can approach or include their spouse in that? You know, what are some things that you feel like Rich did? Well, maybe some things that he didn't do so well that, you know, others could improve on, or can you share some thoughts on that?

Janelle [00:51:19] I will. I'll share. I think we talked about it earlier. You know, he has phenomenal amounts of patience. And so I think that's served both of us well in this situation because I have certainly required that of him because it's taken me. Like we said, it's taken me longer than he expected. You know, he expected some normalcy to return much sooner than I was ready to be. Normal, if you can call it that. So that was extremely helpful. I think just being aware that. Can come as a shock. It's a devastating loss. To be aware of that, to not just simplify it and

Natasha Helfer [00:52:31] minimize it.

Janelle [00:52:32] Minimize it. Right. To recognize that there's a true. True. A true loss there that the other spouse is experiencing. I don't know. Is that.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:53] Yeah. And I think along with that, things. I think things that you said also were not placing ultimatums and allowing you to continue with kind of what your original contract was when he got married, you know, that he didn't make these

Janelle [00:53:08] huge alterations to that or expectations that just because he no longer felt that way, that I, you know, needed to agree or to, you know, abandon ship as well.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:24] Right.

Janelle [00:53:27] And two, I don't know, just that there's a call for some mutual respect that needs to be there.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:45] What about advice you have for the ones who are in your shoes?

Janelle [00:53:53] Well, I think one of the big things that I learned, again, was the. Than not being upset with him for, you know, perceiving that this was something he was doing to me to realize that he was not intentionally trying to hurt me.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] He.

Janelle [00:54:13] So. Something he was going through and to try not to take it personally to. To. I think it's like any other trial that we face, you know, here in this life that we knew and we accept that as part of the plan of salvation, that there are trials that will come into our lives, and whether they be, you know, illness or, you know, there's. There's premature death, there's. There's all kinds of things that we're subject to, and that this is just. This is one of those trials. And. But not having to. There's still. There's there's reasons to stay together. There's reasons to stay a member of the church.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:16] And

Janelle [00:55:19] I guess I feel like it's not any different than any other challenge or trial that we face in this life. They're unexpected. They're not what we would ever choose. But I mean, this is how we're proved. This is how we're proven. And that's kind of how I look at it. And. The alternative to me isn't great. And so I'm going to.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:55] Meaning the alternative of divorce or of what?

Janelle [00:55:58] Divorce or Levy, you know, not having the gospel in my life or my children's life. That is completely. That's just not an acceptable alternative as far as I'm concerned. And so we endure. We keep plugging away and we do the best that we can. And I just have that faith that Heavenly Father knows our circumstances and he knows. What will be for our benefit and that it will, it will work out.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:49] Right. Well, this is a good segue then, to probably my last question or questions is how then has this, if you want to call it trial, and with the idea of kind of in our Mormon culture that we learn from our trials or our trials have a purpose, because everything, I guess, in this life has a purpose. How has this been maybe a challenge or a growth process for you individually? What has this affected your testimony? How has this affected your relationship with Heavenly Father or your relationship even with yourself?

Silver Linings, Testimony, and Eternal Family Hopes

Janelle [00:57:38] You know, I think the things that have come from it that are good, I guess, is the confidence that I've had in just knowing, I guess now what needed to be done and that I would be the one needing to do it and stepping up to the plate and taking that on and knowing that I can do that.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:08] So almost self empowerment?

Janelle [00:58:11] I think so. I think, and I think I'm just so grateful for my mission experience because, you know, I have experiences to rely on and not just for my mission. But certainly that opportunity was extremely helpful to me. I'm just so glad that I could do that. And, you know, I sometimes hear other women say, you know, I leave that up to my husband because he served a mission or he's a great teacher, he served a mission or whatever. And I feel like, not that I feel like I'm a great teacher because I don't feel that way, but I have my own experiences that I can rely on.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:01] So it's almost, it feels to me like just a heightened, maybe even self esteem or self confidence or something along the lines of, I am woman, hear me roar. I can do this too.

Janelle [00:59:16] I'm not dependent on anybody for

Natasha Helfer [00:59:22] the

Janelle [00:59:22] things that I need, things that. Some of the things that I value most, being available to my children, I am capable and able to do that. I think just the. It's taught me that flexibility that I've needed. I think I'm pretty rigid and have things like, things a certain way, pretty annoyingly idealistic, and have, even, if you can imagine, been called a perfectionist. And so being able to.

Janelle [01:00:09] I've been forced to let some of that go. And in an effort to, you know, maintain a relationship and to have a happy marriage and a happy home, which really are. Those are my most important things. Those are the things I value the most.

Janelle [01:00:28] I think it's also taught me an incredible lesson in unconditional love, because, I mean, at one point, you know, I felt like. And Rich probably felt this way, too, that my love for him was based on his membership in the church and how wrong that really is, is of me.

Janelle [01:01:03] And I'm ashamed of that feeling. And it didn't take me long to realize that wasn't right. It wasn't good, it wasn't the way I should be. I think that was in the depths of some pretty sad times, but.

Janelle [01:01:30] But just learning and knowing. I don't know. I've always heard that term unconditional love, and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought. I've not had a hard time loving anyone in particular. But through this trial, I mean, it was. It's hard to love unconditionally when someone has hurt you. Whether it was, you know, intended or purposeful or directed at me or not. The bottom line was that he had done something that hurt me terribly. And so.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:10] And now you're supposed to be loving and affectionate and all those things, even through your hurt.

Janelle [01:02:17] Right. And so really just valuing him as a person and knowing who he is, whether or not he realizes or remembers or knows who he is, and just treating him in the way that my savior would want him to be treated, he's deserving of that, and. That's what I want to. To do. That's how I want to be.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:55] Right.

Janelle [01:02:56] That's why, you know, I am trying to do the things I'm trying to do.

Natasha Helfer [01:03:10] And when you feel like it's all overwhelming and you're ready to give up, do you ever feel that way?

Janelle [01:03:18] You know, it's been a while. Again, like I said, I don't think the alternative is that great. There are beautiful truths that are contained here that I'm not really finding anywhere else. And so no.

Natasha Helfer [01:03:44] Can you talk about that a little bit as far as what would you say are the basis of your own testimony? What are the truths that keep you, I guess, enduring or holding to the rod or however we want to?

Janelle [01:04:00] Well, I guess, I mean, like so many, I don't know that I'm unique in this, but I mean just the eternal nature of families and I mean, who doesn't want to hold on to that? Everything associated with the temple and redeeming. Our ancestors who have gone before us, you know, where else is that found? Just the practical day to day things. The food storage, the family home, evening, just all those things. I think it's so,

Natasha Helfer [01:05:00] It's.

Janelle [01:05:04] They're things that help our families and I just find them amazing in their simplicity, the power they have to bless our lives.

Natasha Helfer [01:05:24] With the whole eternal nature thing. I've heard many spouses in this situation doubt now that they can be an eternal family, that somehow, because the husband or wife has chosen a different road or a different path, that somehow threatens that idea of eternal unity. What are your thoughts about that? Do you worry about that or struggle with your ideology around that?

Janelle [01:05:54] I think I have worried about that before and I've just decided that I'm not going to because why am I going to spend energy worrying about something that I have no control over? And that really, in the end I have complete faith that my family is an eternal family. We were married in the temple, our children are born in the covenant and they are ours. And I just, I have to believe and have to hope that this loving Heavenly Father will, that there will be all things taken into consideration.

Natasha Helfer [01:06:54] Right.

Janelle [01:06:55] I am just not going to entertain any thought of my family not being eternal because of something I had nothing to do with and no control over.

Natasha Helfer [01:07:14] Right. And that we don't fully understand all of that.

Janelle [01:07:22] Right. And I don't, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't know everything about my husband's background or his, you know, personal challenges or trials. And Heavenly Father does, or even the

Natasha Helfer [01:07:41] way his brain is put together and the chemicals that affect him versus you.

Janelle [01:07:49] Right. He for some reason was blessed with a very analytical, he's very, he is very reasonable. He reasons through things. He, he thinks about them in a completely different way than I do. But that, that, that's who he is. And he, there's a reason he's like that and it's not an error. It's not a, you know, he's a freak. He's not, he, you know, that's, that's a strength and it can be a weakness. And I just, I don't know. It would be ultra devastating to think along those lines. And so I'm choosing not to.

Natasha Helfer [01:08:40] And I really support you on that. That's something that I encourage the couples I work with to also not go down or make assumptions that they know whether or not, well, my husband left the church or my wife left the church. So therefore, I know this is no longer a possibility for us. I don't think we know anything regarding those kinds of things, and it's not our place to know those things. And those kinds of assumptions can only do damage.

Janelle [01:09:15] Well, I think they cause you to prematurely throw in the towel or give up. And who is the author of that hopelessness or that, you know, halting our progression? That's not our Heavenly Father.

Natasha Helfer [01:09:31] Yeah.

Janelle [01:09:33] It doesn't come from him. I think we just keep, just, just keep moving on.

Natasha Helfer [01:09:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:09:47] I think my favorite scriptures have to do with the idea of not fearing. Thou shalt not have fear.

Janelle [01:09:56] Well, and hope and fear cannot exist in the same, you know, the same.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:05] In the same nanosecond anyway.

Janelle [01:10:08] Right, Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:09] They can probably exist in the same thought, but.

Janelle [01:10:13] Right. But really.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:16] Right.

Janelle [01:10:17] There are two authors there that you cannot mesh together.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:25] Yes. Well, Janelle, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today and for sharing so many of your wonderful thoughts and struggles and strengths and weaknesses and, you know, the ways that you have kind of come to terms with this in your life that it's just been so informative and useful. And I hope that many people will enjoy hearing this as much as I've enjoyed interviewing you.

Janelle [01:10:57] Thank you. And you're welcome.

John Dehlin [01:10:59] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online@mormonstories.org if you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin, as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even ward situation through discovery, mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Still all my song shall be Nearer

Janelle [01:12:00] my go to thee Nearer my go to Nearer to thee.

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