Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 30, 2020, and today we have what I hope will be an important two part series on Mormon Stories Podcast. For those of you who live in the United States, you will know that November 3, 2020, is election day where we will be voting in the President of the United States. I, I've been following politics for a very long time, and I've never seen such a divisive and contentious election. And I think many people believe that, that this is one of the most historic elections in the history of the United States. That is 2020 election of Donald Trump, President Donald Trump versus Vice President Joe Biden. And this is obviously a really sensitive and polarizing topic or area to discuss, but I feel like it's important. And because this is Mormon Stories and our goal isn't to, you know, focus on politics, I wanted to just kind of begin, I'll talk about the structure, then I'll talk about the framework for this discussion. So basically I, I took this on because I feel like one of the legacies of Mormon Stories podcast has been that we try to interview people from all sorts of sides of the spectrum. We've interviewed orthodox believers on Mormon stories, we've interviewed apologists, we've interviewed people questioning the church, and we've interviewed people leaving the church. And that's something that we believe in, that I believe in our Mormon Stories podcast, that somehow through discourse, through dialogue, we can come to a better understanding of each other and hopefully get to a better place as a group, as a society, through dialogue. And as someone who has studied quite a bit about the United States and politics and history, I do believe that dialogue can be an important part of informing, educating, and enlightening humanity. So those are some of the core principles that led me to want to do this. It's actually so polarizing. It's kind of unbelievable. There were some people that unfriended me or unfollowed me just because I was willing to talk about one side or the other, to give voice to Trump supporters or give voice to Biden supporters. I understand why people feel so passionately. I understand why, why people are so emotional. At the same time, I, I don't believe that it's useful to dehumanize any side. And, and so the purpose of today is multi. Multi purpose, I guess. But most importantly, we just want to ask people sincerely why they believe and feel the way they feel. The purpose of today is not to Argue it's not to promote any side, it's not to get contentious. It's literally just to sort of have as a snapshot in time on the record a few days before the election, just to kind of get, give people a chance to share their points of view. We, we are live streaming this on Facebook and on YouTube and we really do welcome comments and questions from our live stream listeners. We are doing the Trump broadcast right now at 9:30 Utah time. And then at 1:00 clock Utah time, we'll be doing the Biden interview. So that's kind of how it's going to be. We're going to try and give each side two to three hours. And I just want to begin with a few disclaimers just about my biases and, and just sort of my background. I want to just declare up front that I consider myself to be very much nonpartisan. I grew up super conservative. I grew up loving Rush Limbaugh, loving Ronald Reagan. And, you know, my dad was, my parents were definitely conservative Republicans. I majored in political science while I was at byu. I did a congressional internship on Capitol Hill for Republican congressmen. I actually got really disenchanted and disappointed with the political corruption and cronyism that I saw in Washington, D.C. so I scrapped my plans to become a lawyer, go to law school, and to get into politics. But I maintained my interest in politics. And for many, many years in my early life, I watched all the political Sunday shows, you know, Meet the Press with Tim Russert, this week with David Brinkley, and then with George Stephanopoulos and Cokie Robertson, Sam Donaldson. I just, I follow politics closely for many, many years. Less so in the past four to eight years. Honestly, part of that is just because Mormon stories has been so intense for me. I, after byu, I became more politically moderate. My biggest issues were war. I hated war. I hate war, and I hated war. So when I, when I started getting mad at George Bush, it was, it was over issues of war. And I also became more and more sensitized to issues of social justice, civil rights, LGBTQ rights, et cetera. So that's kind of made me more moderate. I'm currently a registered Republican in Utah. I did that mostly so that I could vote for John Huntsman in the primaries. I, I'm a big advocate of social justice and civil rights and LGBTQ rights. I'm a huge fan of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X Jr. I do support the Black Lives Matter movement. And I just wanted to say that publicly. And I, I am currently a biden supporter. I voted for Biden, but I also feel like Biden was not by any stretch the best candidate. So I'm not excited about Biden. And I will just be honest. I do have deep, deep, deep concerns about Donald Trump as president. Having said all that, I'm going to do my best to not insert myself into the dialogue for today and for this afternoon because again, my purpose is just to sort of, in typical Mormon stories fashion, ask a lot of questions that dig deep on why other people feel the way they feel. I will be asking tough questions, hopefully to both sides. I've come up with a list of the tough questions. So whichever side you support, I hope you feel like I've been fair. But everyone should be expected that we'll talk about the hard issues. I'll also say that I worry that social issues are used to captivate the attention of voters when oftentimes it's the corporate interests that are often corrupting in American politics. So while I care a lot about social justice issues, I think that they can often be distractions from what's really going on behind the scenes. And I often wish there was a third party to balance things out because sometimes I feel like there are really strong corrupting influences on both sides of the party. I believe there are good reasons to be either a Republican or a Democrat or independent. I'll just say that. And the thing I believe most is that this comes from Jonathan Haidt and the book the Righteous Mind. I believe that most people tend to make their decisions emotionally and then they use reason and logic to justify the decisions they arrive at emotionally. And I think Republicans, conservatives do that. I think Democrats, liberals do that as well. Moderates, I think we all do that. And that's why not going to have time today to do like massive extensive fact checking or debating. I'm going to ask questions and, and honestly, I'm going to be rooted in people's feelings because I, I do think that's the primary motivator. I did do my best to get diverse panels of, of men and women. I put out calls for LGBT people, people of color. I had several people drop out at the last minute. I think some people drop out out of fear of either coming out Mormon stories or on talking about their politics. And so for that I want to just give both audiences my kudos because it's, I think, you know, it's a bold, courageous thing these days to come on a higher profile podcast in our community and to speak about your political views or your religious views, either one, if we were just to add sex in here, we would basically be violating all the rules of polite dinner conversation. Sex, politics and religion. Going to focus on politics and religion. But, you know, we'll sexual. Probably get into it, of course, just a little bit. So that's my disclaimer. I want to thank everyone for joining us today. I want to encourage all our comments, commenters, questioners to do their best to engage in civil discourse. And I've asked all my panelists to please be respectful and not use any language that would be offensive to. To people as much as possible, and certainly that we're sensitive to people, you know, vulnerable minorities. And I know that that in and of itself is probably a really controversial comment or statement, but we're going to just do our best. So without any further ado, I'm going to bring on our panelists and I would. I'm going to just have each panelist introduce themselves first. And, and I'm going to begin with Rich. Rich, tell us a bit about yourself and thanks for coming on Mormon Stories podcast.

Panelists Introduce Themselves

Guest [00:10:23] You bet, John. My name is Rich. I live in Utah now. I'm, I'm from Texas, and they got divorced about three years ago and moved up here and married somebody. And, and I live in Utah now. I kind of. I grew up in my teenage years. I went to school here and, and just. I don't know. What else do you want, John? Just that.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] What's your. Tell us your relationship with the church?

Guest [00:10:52] I was all in. In Texas. I was in the branch presidency. I 52 years, returned missionary. All the, you know, all the things that we're supposed to do. You know, I held tons of callings, all kinds of things. Then my wife read some stuff and then showed me some stuff. And, and the church history is what really got me. It's, it really was not. It's not the stuff that I was taught when I was young, and it's not the stuff I taught other people on my mission, and it's not the stuff I believed, but the church history that, that I was shown, I thought was true. I mean, the history was true, and it totally just. It just totally threw me for a loop and I left.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] Okay, excellent. Thanks for giving us that background. And, yeah, let's go ahead and bring on the next panelist and then we'll come back to kind of individual questions. Is that okay? All right, Bob, you're next.

Guest 2 [00:11:59] Hi, John.

Bob [00:11:59] Thanks for having, having on and doing this. I agree with you. This is something that's important and something that's needed where we are able to actually talk instead of just, you know, have comment flame wars and on the Internet. So I appreciate it. So quickly. I'm 37 years old. 36 of those years were spent as an active, believing Mormon. I, let's see. Yeah, did all the things. I'm a philosophy major from byu. I'm practicing attorney now. I was, I've held colleagues in a bishopric seminary teacher as far as the church goes. So. And it was last year where I came into historical issues and decided, you know, based on this new information that I had, I needed to reevaluate my beliefs. And so I've been kind of going through that and I, for me, my own experience is my Mormon beliefs absolutely influenced my politics. I don't know that they can be separated out. And so part of what's been going on in the last year is working through, you know, my actual political beliefs as opposed to what I've, what I inherited from my Mormon background that I've kind of, like I said, I'm in the process of reevaluating. So.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] Okay, all right, we'll come back and ask you about some of the main reasons, but thanks so much for joining us, Bob. It's great to have you. All right, let's go ahead and go to Tyler. Tyler, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast and tell us just a bit about yourself.

Guest 3 [00:13:48] All right, thanks, John. So my name is Tyler. I'm 33 years old. I was born in Montana, moved to Ogden, Utah when I was in elementary school. So I live here in northern Utah now. I'm a father. I have three beautiful girls, twin five year olds and a two year old. My parents are converts to the church. I'm an active believing member of the church, currently served my mission in Rochester, New York. We had Palmyra, the Sacred Grove, all the church history sites back there. So love my mission. I've held numerous callings. You know, I was called to the High Council when I was 25 years old, so I was pretty young for that calling. I think I was one of the youngest high priests in the state, if not the church at the time. But I've had a lot of great experience throughout the church and still have a very strong testimony and love my church for that. I don't consider myself a Trump supporter necessarily. I'm very more libertarian, although I do plan to vote for Trump and I'll explain a little bit about that during this process. So, I mean, I believe the government is, you know, should, should be much more limited. I believe in more personal freedom that you know, government's duty is to protect our inalienable rights, not to create rights or make rights. Every time I hear politicians saying, I want to make, you know, fill in the blank, a human right, my response is, you, you can't, you can't create rights. We, we have inalienable rights. We're born with rights.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] And so we'll get into those things after the introduction. So really quickly. We don't have a lot of believing, active Mormons come on Mormon stories these days just because, you know, because of our history. So I'm just curious, you know, what, what is it that makes you feel comfortable coming on Mormon stories as an active, believing member?

Guest 4 [00:16:04] Sure.

Guest 3 [00:16:04] So I've never been one to shy away from opposition. I listen to a variety of people that do not believe the same way I believe. One of my favorite podcasts is Sam Harris. He's a liberal atheist, but I, I think he's, you know, brilliant. Makes a lot of really good points. I love Joe Rogan. I, I, I, I, I like listening to opposing views and, you know, weighing them against what I believe. And, you know, I'm seeking for truth. I also believe in, you know, building bridges, having open dialogue. You know, I, I'm sure you and I could find a host of issues we disagree with theologically and politically. But as long as it's polite dialogue and something that we can talk about in a respectful manner, that, that's what I, I want to do. And, and that's what I see as being a major issue in our political world today. And so I'm hoping to try and bridge that gap a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] Excellent. All right, Tyler. People are wanting to know everyone's education and profession. So, Tyler, tell us, tell us, did you share with us already what you do, Tyler?

Guest 3 [00:17:26] I didn't. I'm primarily, I've got a job in sales. I do wholesale, but I, I'm also a small business owner. I do real estate investment and invest in certain businesses and so kind of an entrepreneur.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Okay, Rich, Rich, did you share with us your profession?

Guest [00:17:46] I was a truck driver for 30 years and then moved up here and still drove a little bit. And then now my wife and I

John Dehlin [00:17:56] own a business, Bob. How about you, Bob?

Bob [00:17:59] I'm an attorney and a small business owner.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] Attorney and small business owner. Okay. Excellent. Okay. All right, thanks, Tyler. Steph, you're next.

Guest 5 [00:18:11] Okay, so I was my profession, actually. I got my college degree from Oregon State University, but I grew up in Idaho and I own my own business. I repair and sell dental equipment to dentists. So that's what I do now. I grew up in Idaho, got a college basketball scholarship to Oregon State University, went there after I graduated, ended up getting married and moving to Utah. And I was raised in a very orthodox Mormon household, but I always knew that. That I was gay. And I tried everything to, you know, follow the church, but, you know, eventually it didn't work out, and been divorced a few years, you know, for obvious reasons. And that's where I'm at now. And I.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] What do you mean, for obvious reasons?

Guest 5 [00:19:10] Being gay. I was in a marriage with a man. Married with the temple in the church. Yeah. So that. Thanks for allowing me to be on here. I'm here to learn a lot, to have good discussions. My views are always changing based on new information. I've done a lot of research and things on my own, and I wouldn't say I'm affiliated with any party, but I am voting for Trump this time. I didn't vote for him last time, and we can get into why.

Guest 6 [00:19:49] Excellent.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] Yeah. I'm so glad to have someone who represents the LGBT community voting for Trump, because one of the misperceptions is that, you know, people of color are going to just vote for Biden or that LGBT people are just going to vote for Biden or that women are just going to vote for Biden. And I think that's totally not accurate. I think a lot. That, you know, a lot of Hispanics, you know, black Americans and even LGBT Americans, you know, a lot of them are going to vote for Trump. And, yeah, I'm really glad you were able to join us, both as a woman and as a. As LGBT member of the lgbt.

Guest 5 [00:20:32] I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate mail from my friends, but, you know, they already know, like, my. My girlfriend that I live with, she is a Democrat. And, you know, we get. We get along just fine.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] So thanks for joining us. So we got a comment already from Joel. Joel says, not lost on me, that this is a panel that appears to be 100% white people. I'll just respond to that directly. Joel. Number one, I've put out explicit calls for people of color to join, and because we work from a base of Mormons that are largely white, I think both panels are going to be largely white. I did have at least one person of color to join this panel, and then they backed out last minute. So I can't do that when it's right before showtime and someone backs out. I can't control that. So I did my best. If any of you are a person of color and a Trump supporter. I will add you to this podcast. Right now. You just need to message me on Facebook. So find me on Facebook. Message me. Not my Dr. John Dehlin account, but my private account. Message me and I will add you because I very much want to have a diverse panel and I've done the best I can. So, anyway, thanks, Steph. It's so great to have you and. And we'll come back to you. So, Wendell, Wendell, it's your turn. Tell us a bit about yourself and. And a little bit about your background. Let me unmute you really quick or you need to unmute yourself. Actually, I can't hear you until you unmute yourself, Wendell. Okay, go ahead.

Guest 2 [00:22:14] Hear me now. I'm Wendell. I grew up in Draper, and I went to Utah State University. I've got a bachelor's degree from Utah State. I've lived in most. Mostly throughout Utah, but mostly in. I lived in moab for about four years, and then I lived in Manti for 20 years. And right now I live in McCammon, Idaho. And I think pretty much my. As far as my background with the church goes, I'm. I'm not a believer. I'm not an attender. I. I never formally resigned. I. I ran away from home when I was 18 to join the Navy, so I never went on a mission. I served in the Utah national guard for about 25 years, and I deployed to Iraq and I worked. I retired from the Utah Department of Corrections and I worked for a while for the US army and Dugway Proving Ground and Tool Army Depot. And right now I'm pretty much retired and truck drive from time to time to. It's kind of fun. I kind of enjoy doing that. So that's as far as my church thing goes. I think a lot of where I.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Hey, wait a really quick. Is your microphone rubbing up against something? I want to make sure your audio doesn't get kind of rough.

Guest 2 [00:23:49] Yeah, let me try something here. That helped a little. I have a little microphone on. Maybe it's working against my sweatshirt, but that's better.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:23:56] Yeah. Anyway, I, Yeah, I pretty much became convinced the church wasn't true long before the Internet. A lot of it was the Mark Hoffman thing was a. I think, a very troubling thing for me. I had a very difficult time believing that Mark Hoffman couldn't be detected as being a fraud by our prophet seers and revelators. Revelators. So that became a downhill spiral. And then I think the Book of Abraham was Another very troubling thing. So I think that affected me quite a bit as far as, you know, I grew up in a pretty devout religious environment, you know, the typical Mormon environment. I. I kind of color outside the lines quite a bit. I'm a non conformist, so I don't really fit in in too many places at all. So. So that's kind of a, I think, an issue. So that makes it a little difficult, I think, from time to time, but I think that's about probably the gist of it, so.

John Dehlin [00:25:00] All right, thank you. Thanks for joining us, Wendell. It's good to have you. I love it that you're a vet, a veteran. I think that's a valuable perspective.

Guest 2 [00:25:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] Daniel, I think you're our last panelist. Do you want to introduce yourself really quickly?

Guest 4 [00:25:21] Sure. Thank you so much. Can you guys hear me? Okay?

Guest 6 [00:25:25] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:25:27] My name is Daniel. I live up in the Seattle area. My wife and I are also members of the LGBTQ community up here. So, Steph, you're not alone. And.

Guest 3 [00:25:44] I.

Guest 4 [00:25:46] My journey in kind of politics and figuring out who I was going to vote for was very similar to my faith journey. It started out with me just. I think somebody else in the chat when we were planning this session mentioned it too, that I really had a hard time taking things at people's words after my faith transition. And so I really wanted to find out a lot of stuff for myself, and I started doing a lot of extra research, and I was surprised at some of the stuff that I found out politically. And one of the main things for me was how many bite model elements that I saw in politics on both sides, Democrats and Republicans. And one of the biggest things for me was I saw a lot of corruption and a lot of bite. Bite components. And I was figuring if. If I have to vote for. Between two people that are corrupt or vote between two people that are both, both kind of trying to influence people's minds. It alarmed me that none of the shortcomings or elements like that from Biden were being talked about at all. I understand that people were very scared.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] And then we're not. We're not talking about our political views yet. We're just giving introductions.

Guest 4 [00:27:12] Oh, yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] So just kind of education, church background, that. That, you know, marital status, that sort of thing.

Guest 4 [00:27:19] Sorry, sorry. I thought we were given a brief relation between.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Oh, yeah, we're about to get there.

Guest 4 [00:27:24] Sorry about that. Yeah, so I am. I'm in a master's program in psychology. I've been really enjoying working there. And in the, in the daytime, I'm a stay at home parent. My wife, about three months into our first kid, called me at work and was just like, I'm done. I can't, I can't do this. This is not for me. She found out that a lot of the reason she had kids was because she was raised in the Mormon culture and that's what you do. And she didn't feel like she ever was taught a different option or had another choice. So we switched places. And I've been at home and she's been pursuing her career and her education as well, and I really enjoy that. So that's my, my day to day life and my education. Sorry for the, the tangent.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] No, no, no. And your relationship with the church, again, you're. You're no longer in the church, is that right?

Guest 4 [00:28:21] Yeah, I, I have not personally gone through the, the full process of resigning. My wife has, but I mean, we haven't attended in like seven years. So.

Bob [00:28:29] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:28:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] So thanks. Welcome, Daniel. It's good to have you. I'm going to share a quick comment from a listener. We're already getting the types of comments that I thought we would. Joel writes. Ugh, I can't. With this panel legitimizing Trump supporters after almost four years of incompetence, lies, division, and death, I'm out. So Joel's basically saying he's left the conversation just because, you know, we're giving voice to people who support Trump. And, you know, that's totally Joel's call. But I just want to say that, you know, my dad, my dad supports Trump, my mom supports Trump, close family members and even dear friends, people that you would know vote for Trump and support Trump. And I just don't know how it's going to be good for our country to have things be so polarized that we dehumanize people to the point where if they vote for even someone we think is awful, that we're not even willing to listen to them or believe that they shouldn't even have a voice. And Joel, I'm just going to say I reject that. I'm sorry if you don't want to listen to the podcast, but, but I think that that's the wrong way to go. And I think that's feeding into the divisiveness that's tearing us apart. And frankly, I think that feeds a lot of Trump supporters this idea of sort of this liberal progressive cancel culture that claims to have tolerance as a value, but then sometimes can act so intolerant. And I don't mean to be jumping on anyone's side, but I'm just wanting to address Joel's comments and anyone else who, you know, there are others that, oh, somebody else wrote, oh, he listens to Joe Rogan. I'm out. And Joe Rogan is one of the most popular podcasters in the United States. And if you're going to basically say you're not willing to listen to someone if they listen to Joe Rogan, I mean, I understand he's controversial and that his LGBT stances, particularly for some, have been really offensive. But. But, you know, if you're not open to voices very different from yours, your Mormon stories isn't for you. So that's just response to Joel. Rich, I'm going to come back to you now. I'm going to have you go first. I'm going to ask all of you to prepare. Just a couple minutes. And I want to know, let's just say the top three reasons you're voting for Trump. You know, I don't want this big laundry list. I want the ones that touch your heart and that touch your emotions most closely, because I really do believe that people vote primarily based on their emotions, and then all the logic and facts oftentimes are just used to bolster their opinion. You guys may disagree, but let's just hear, Rich, your top three reasons for voting for Trump.

Opening the Conversation on Supporting Trump

Top Reasons Panelists Voted for Trump

Guest [00:31:27] Well, I think a lot of things. I think a lot of the guys, a lot of the people. Sorry, a lot of the people in our group will kind of agree that we may not like everything that Trump says. We may not like everything that Trump does. Okay? He is from Queens. He's from New York. He's not my cup of tea, the way he treats or talks to people. But there are a few things. There are a few basic things that keep me, let's say, on the conservative side, lately, with my church journey and everything, I've kind of become most socially liberal as opposed to fiscally conservative. Okay? So when it comes to the things that matter to me being a small business owner, I know there's a few small business owners in this group that taxes is one of them. I got a tax cut. I don't know when I was driving truck, and I know Wendell drives, too. I got a tax cut. Okay. He promised a tax cut. I got a tax cut. He's pulling our people out of war. I'm like you, John. I don't think the Iraq war was horrible. There's, you know, we could have done it faster, quicker, stronger, got it over with. And been out of there. We have service people dying every day, you know, for what, you know, so he's pulling people out of the war. And, and another thing was, a big thing was me was moving the, the thing to Jerusalem for Israel, the capital, the embassy.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] A lot of people, a lot of people mentioned that. Why is moving the capital of Jerusalem, the, the capital of Israel to Jerusalem or the, was it the embassy we moved to Jerusalem? Why is that, why is that so important to you as a, as a white male, you know, ex Mormon American guy?

Guest [00:33:15] Well, I, I, I firmly believe, and it's not biblical or anything, but I think we have a good relationship with, with, with Israel. I watched a lot of speeches by Benjamin Netanyahu and stuff, and I really think he's a, he's a really good leader. Trump promised that he would do it. A lot of presidents, Trump promised that they would do it, and they never did. Obama said he was going to do it. You know, Bush said they were going to do it. Trump says he's going to do it, he does it. There's been a lot of things that Trump has done in the last three and a half years that he said he was going to do. When, when I first voted for him four years ago, I was kind of skeptical. Well, you know, he's another Hollywood, not Hollywood, but you know what I'm saying. He had the TV show and, and he's another one part of the swamp. But he's actually, to me, he's actually done a lot of things that he said he was going to do. Build the wall, get taxes lowered, legal immigration, stuff like that. And it really kind of, that's kind of where I'm at, you know, I mean, I'm kind of like, I'm a conservative. I just want to be left alone. I want to be able to shoot my guns and I don't want to pay a whole lot in taxes. You know, just, just let me live. Live for your diet, you know what I mean?

Guest 6 [00:34:25] I don't know.

Guest [00:34:25] It sounds like a cliche, but it's kind of the way I want to live. I want, you know, I want the government out of my bedroom and just leave me alone, you know?

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Right, right. And that's a, that's a really common response. As I gathered comments from, from listeners, I put out a call for people's comments about Trump and about Biden. And a lot of Trump supporters feel like he, he has made good on the promises he made.

Guest [00:34:55] I mean, you got to consider, I mean, he lives in, I mean, they're in Washington, D.C. the bit, the swamp is real. I don't know about what you think or, or what other people think, but there's a lot of deep state. I think deep state is such a. A cliche word, but there's. A lot of things have been going on forever. A lot of wallets are getting fat. I agree, and Trump might be one of them, but he's kind of pulled through on some promises that he's made. And I was, I very. Generally, I'm not surprised, but I'm. It makes me glad because, you know, I mean, the tax cuts were huge. I, you know, I got. I was making pretty good money, and I, you know, I was getting 80, $90 back a week back into my pocket when he passed those tax cuts. So I don't know what, you know, people are saying that only the rich got the tax cuts because guess what? I got it, like a 300 raise just from the tax cuts. So, you know, a month. So, you know, that's money in my pocket. That's money to feed my family. That's money to pay for things that I needed. So I was just like, you know, he. He said he would do it, and he did it. That. That's kind of.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] Yeah, really quickly. Do what? In what ways does Mormonism or post Mormonism inform your decision to vote for Trump? Is there, Are there any meaningful connections for you between those things?

Guest [00:36:13] Well, when I was, When I was lds, you know, I was, you know, everyone is pretty conservative. I mean, I'm sure there's. There's outlying, you know, liberal thoughts or liberal ideas and a lot of people. And I think it's kind of coming to the light more as we go on as opposed to, you know, 10, 20 years ago. And, you know, I was very conservative. You know, I was in the branch presidency and all kinds of things. And you have to set an example, and you have to do this and have to do that and, and now that, that. I left the church about a year and a half ago, two years ago, I don't. And I'm. Maybe I'm an anomaly, but I don't really think about what the church does anymore. You know, I don't know if you can.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] That's fine.

Guest [00:36:58] I just don't. It doesn't bother me anymore, and I'm just, I'm my own person.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Okay. So. So not. Not a big influence there.

Guest [00:37:05] No, not really.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Okay, that's great. All right, Rich, that's super helpful. Thanks for giving us that introduction. All right.

Guest [00:37:12] You bet.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] All Right, let's go ahead and, and bring on Bob. Bob, tell us maybe the three biggest reasons from the heart that you voted for Trump. And then I want to talk about whether your Mormonism or post Mormonism influences that.

Bob [00:37:28] Yeah, I do want to qualify this a little bit because I think that when you say from the heart, not that I disagree, but I am, ever since kind of my faith transition, I'm actively trying to be much more rational about how I approach this stuff. Instead of just trusting how I feel, I'm kind of searching for some cognitive dissonance out there to just check myself. So I hope my, these things have come from a rational place. But it's hard to separate emotion. I think number one for me right now is I see a lot of free speech, First Amendment censorship issues. I think big tech, again, it's one of those terms that is being used almost like it's conspiratorial or something. But there's three or four big tech companies, social media companies, that can control the discourse in this country. And I'm concerned that they're aligning with the left right now, and they shouldn't be aligning with anyone. And we need, I think we need to address that. And I don't know that Donald Trump is necessarily going to, but I think he can slow down the spread of, of some of that, and I think it'll accelerate under Biden. I agree with.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Let me ask you really quickly. I've, you know, I followed kind of what I call an October surprise, where the stuff about Biden and his laptops and the China and the, the allegations of China and Russia, you know, donations to Biden. But, but I want to know, separate from that, were you concerned about big tech controlling information prior to that? You know, that one issue, because part of me feels like that was just an October surprise to try and introduce fear, uncertainty and doubt into the minds of Biden voters. Right. Two weeks before the election. I didn't think we had a chance for. I didn't get a sense that law enforcement officials were able to really evaluate and vet that information. And so I'm just curious whether it was that or whether you had those concerns prior.

Guest 2 [00:39:35] No, no.

Bob [00:39:35] This has been going on for a long time. There are individuals who are out there on, on the extremes that have been completely deplatformed from any of the tech platforms that's been going on for a long time. I don't necessarily, I want to throw out names. I think it's, they're, but they're controversial figures. They say stupid things. And it used to be that our public square, they'd be allowed to go and do that, but today our public square is the Internet. And so cutting off any of that, even if it's extreme or even if we don't agree with it, I, I'm troubled by that. And I think that's. I'm more attuned to that now with my experience with, you know, Mormon history, having that having been withheld from me. Even though, you know, some of the Mormon history are people out there with false affidavits or, you know, wild claims that. That aren't true, I still would rather have all that information to be able to make that decision than have somebody over the top of me filtering what I'm allowed to see. So it's before the laptop and the story with the laptop. I think the bigger story isn't what's on the laptop. For me, it's that it has been suppressed and people really haven't. I mean, it's coming out now more, but there was definitely an effort to suppress that. And I. I just don't like that in principle. And I think that it comes around every time it's going to come around. Right now it's benefiting someone, but at the end, it comes around to, you know, everybody and.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] Okay, slippery. So, any other. Any other. The big reasons why. Why you're voting for Trump?

Foreign Policy, the Embassy, and the Swamp

Bob [00:41:13] Sure. I think I want to chime in on the embassy thing. I think foreign policy, you know, the embassy. To me, the importance of that is he's taken a new foreign policy approach, and a lot of people thought it would be a disaster. And, and maybe it is, but what I see is that there are normalization of relationships between Israel and countries in the Middle east that I haven't seen before. And we can argue about how important those are or not, but there's something there that's more of a normalization than there was. And we also have Kosovo and Serbia. We have a lot of that going on right now. And I haven't. I haven't ever really seen that before. And the fact that we haven't started any new foreign interactions and he's bringing troops home. I have a brother in the army. I don't want to see him go back out to Afghanistan. And so I appreciate that he is following up on that promise to bring this home, bring the troops home.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] I just have to say, like, you know, I have felt so strongly against Trump that it's times it's been like, I can't say a good thing about him. But if I'm really honest, my biggest issue was war and how bad I hate war. And my sense is his foreign involvements in war up to this point have actually been less than Obama. Now, that's. I'm not sure about that. That's just my impression, because even the drone strikes that I remember hearing a lot about with Obama, I don't hear a lot about, I haven't heard a lot about in the last few years. And I don't want anyone to think that that's true. I'm only speaking from my impression, and I'm grateful that we're not right now invading other countries, sending lots of troops overseas, and that we're trying to reduce our footprint. That's me trying to be objective, and I'm just kind of agreeing with you.

Bob [00:43:00] Yeah, that's my understanding. I think it's a little bit ironic that one of the only things I've seen the mainstream media agree with Trump on in the last four years was when we did have some. Some bombing in Syria. And all of a sudden the mainstream media is okay with that. And I. I just think that illustrates some of the motivations in the. I don't know if it's deep state, but there's a large, you know, group that's kind of in charge of some of this. So I. Yeah, I don't know if I need to keep talking.

Guest 2 [00:43:26] Right. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] No, thanks, Bob. It's great to have you. We'll bring you right back, but thanks for giving us that intro.

Bob [00:43:32] Thanks.

A Gay Panelist Explains Her Trump Vote

John Dehlin [00:43:33] All right. All right, Steph, let's bring you on. Steph, you. You. I'm dying here. Like, there are. There are very people that I care about who are very close to me that are members of the LGBT community. I'm obviously a really outspoken advocate for LGBTQ rights for same sex marriage, and that's long standing. I did not expect to have one, let alone two, members of the LGBT community join this panel. So I would love you to address that. But. But let's start by not reducing you to being lgbt. Talk about a couple of the main, from the heart reasons you voted for Trump, and then I want to hear about how what your perceptions of Trump are as a member of the LGBT community.

Guest 5 [00:44:17] Okay. For sure. Let me start by saying that, you know, all these accusations, like, Trump's a misogynist. He, like, narcissist. You know, all this stuff could definitely be true. I'm not doubting from beings I see he probably is a narcissist anyway, but that doesn't exclude me from voting for him because I am looking for the best thing for America. Best thing for me personally, too. Some of my main issues that I'm. I mean, we'll get into the LGBT stuff, but the economy, I, I trust, I trust Trump on the economy. Just, just yesterday, you know, we saw that we had the. The biggest quarter in the history ever of the growth of the GDP up 31%. So, like, our economy is growing and we had lowest unemployment before, you know, Covid, all this. I just trust Trump with the economy, like, what's mentioned before. Another reason is peace in the Middle East. He's, you know, we don't hear about terror attacks in the last few years, so those are a few of the things also. And maybe this will get into another question, but the, the fear that I hear, like, from Biden or from Kamala is like, they're coming for you. You know, be scared. Be scared of COVID Like, all this fear is something that I felt when I was in the church, and I do not like to be told I have to be scared. And you need to. You need to be scared to make action. And I feel like they emotionally manipulate me. And it's something that. It just turns me the other way just from being in the church, how much I was emotionally manipulated that way. And I just feel like I love America. And I think that I do generally think that Trump wants America to be great, and I do, too. So we align there.

Bob [00:46:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:25] Oh, that's great. So when people say that Trump is anti lgbtq.

Guest 5 [00:46:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] You know, I was trying to think about what, you know, I'm not super versed on how LGBTQ people might think of Trump. What I do know is that he has, you know, when the issue of Supreme Court justices has come up, he's chosen people who potentially would be opposed to the legalization of same sex marriage. I know that came up with the most recent nominee, and I'm sure he said, you know, anti LGBTQ or homophobic things because he kind of is such a loose cannon that he said so much. That's so controversial. And that's one of my biggest challenges. So from your perspective, do you feel like Trump and there's other people who are LGBT who are saying in our comment threads, I'm lgbt and I think Trump is pro lgbt. So what your perspective on that so that we can. We can understand your point of view?

Guest 5 [00:47:31] Yeah. So, you know, I, I see these, like, headlines like, you know, Trump hates Gap, whatever. And I was like, is that really true? Is he like, so I, I really had to dig down and listen to, like, exact speeches or wherever they're getting this from. And it's not the same conclusion I came up with. I, I also have seen a lot of things that he, he has appointed judges that are openly gay. Two of them, you know, not Supreme Court, but in lower court. So he's, he, he has done more for the LGBT community than I can think of past presidents. He's, he's worked with the United nations. There are 69 countries that still have homosexuality as a criminal offense. And he's, he's urged them to decriminalize homosexuality across the globe. He's like, defunded Hezbollah, which is a, you know, definitely a anti homosexual group terror group where, you know, Biden and Obama gave them lots of money and he defunded them. So he's also said that he supports same sex marriage. I've seen that in quotes several times and heard it from his mouth. So the, There are a lot of things that trouble me with his stance with, with transgender. And I'm trying to figure out a lot of things with that. I, I know a lot of the, the legislation that he's like the Equality act that he, I'm trying to, I think when I, when it comes down to it, he's never purposely, he's never said he, anything about, you know, that he is trying to hurt transgender people. I haven't, I had. I just don't believe he's trying to hurt the LGBT community. A lot of the legislation that he's revoked or denied, there's other reasons for it, and it's not just to discriminate against the LGBT community. Usually there's something in there that will limit other people's rights or religious freedom or something that goes against the Constitution, and those are the reasons why he's repealing those laws or, you know, not, not like putting the Equality Act. And, and, and I do definitely think that we need to, to approve the Equality, Equality Act. Luckily, in Utah, there is already legislation in place to protect against discrimination for LGBT people. But it does need to be, you know, nationwide. So we do need to get that passed somehow. So it's not that I agree with everything on Trump. I just don't ascribe that he, to the belief that he is out there actively trying to hurt the LGBT community. I just, I just don't believe that. So.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Excellent. I love it. Okay, there's a, there's a comment coming in, and this is something that I, I thought of before, but I, I should have mentioned Ali reminds us that Pence is. That Mike Pence is part of the administration, that he and his wife are anti lgbtq. I think what Ali's referring to there is my sense is that Pence in the past has supported conversion or reparative therapy for LGBTQ people and that. And that his mere selection of someone like Trump or I think Betsy DeVos also comes from sort of very conservative Christian standpoint that that also tends to not be very favorable to LGBTQ people. Do you have. Do you have any comments on that?

Guest 5 [00:51:16] Yeah, I. I know I've seen stuff about. From Pence, and I know he's super religious, and that's where he gets it, and I'm not. I don't agree with that at all. And hopefully, you know, he. He is. If. If. If he had the power to, you know, change the laws and make things worse for LGBT people, I would be worried. But I. I just. I don't see that as a threat. I don't think Pence is a threat. I don't agree with this stance on it, obviously. Um, but that's, you know, that's why I'm not totally, like, Republican, and I'm just voting for who I think would be best for the president right now.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] So I had this conversation with Margi last night because if we, you know, I already said this in the intro, but there's this perception for. For liberals or Democrats that, like, all. All people of color, all Hispanics, all black people, all LGBT people, all women, they're all voting for Biden, and that's producing. I think one of the things we risk doing is we reduce people to just one issue to sort of. We oversimplify and reduce people when we assume they're going to vote just one way on one issue, because nobody's just black, nobody's just lgbtq, nobody's just a woman. Lots of things you have to consider, I think.

Guest 5 [00:52:45] Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I don't want anyone to tell me that I have to vote a certain way just because I'm gay. Like, that does not sit well with me. I want to, you know, figure it out for myself. I, I, you know, I had that in the Mormon church enough. Like, you're a Mormon, you have to do this. You have to act a certain way and don't think about it, don't question it. So I. I've learned that from. From the churches that I. I don't want to be told. Told how I'm supposed to think and. And act anymore. So, yeah, I love it.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] Okay, Steph, it's great to have you on. We'll bring you back on in just a sec. Thanks for joining us. Okay, Daniel, since you also mentioned that you identify as a member of the LGBT community, as we just talked about that with Steph, do you want to add anything before we talk about the main issues? I just want to have some, a bit of continuity. Do you, as a member, as a self identified member of the LGBT community, do you want to also add any perspective on that issue before you share the other perspectives?

Faith Transitions and the Culture War

Guest 4 [00:53:49] Yeah, I mean, the, one of the biggest things for me that Steph hit on the head was like she said, I think the, the feeling like people are attempting to control you through fear. That's been something really big for me too. And in that sense, I have seen a lot of similarities between some of the people of color that I've seen that speak out in support of some in support of Trump and some just against the left. But like one example that I think we shows how beneficial it can be to the community to have members in both communities. There was just a news story about Ice Cube put forward a proposal that he called the Contract with Black America, and he put it forward to both candidates and Trump. Trump wanted to meet with him right away to see it. And he said he got backlash for meeting with Trump. And he said, look, I offered it to Biden too. And he said they, they talk about it later. And it just goes to show that one of the best positions any community can be in is to have members in, in both camps and to be able to have politicians try to jockey to support you because then, and try to compete to, to back your community because then you really at that point have more power with politicians to have them consider multiple things, to have them take steps towards progressing your issues politically and things like that. So that's one of the big things to me that I think is, is really important to keep in mind because like you said, we all do have other issues that, other political issues that we vote and that we care about and it's, it just doesn't boil down to that one aspect of identity. So I think it's the only thing that I'd necessarily add, you know, is to, to have both Republicans and Democrats counting on our vote and having to work for our vote is, is going to put us in a better position.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Yeah, I remember a person of color once saying me that, you know, the Democrats just assume we're on their side so they ignore us and the Republicans don't You know, sometimes don't think we're on our. We're on their side, and so they ignore us. And so we get ignored by both parties. So you make a really good point that, that it. Mormons included, like. Right. You know, even Mormons should hopefully want Democrats to be supportive of them as well as Republicans, not just Republicans. And so I think that's a really good argument for, for there to be representation in all the parties, and there is, and so we don't have to worry about that. I do want to say that my understanding for members of the trans community, and this is sort of echoing some of the things that Steph said, there are many members of the trans community that feel like, whether it's with Trump's decisions regarding trans people in the military or in schools, that, you know, there's a big long list from, from Trans Rights, you know, hrc, Human Rights Commission, sort of groups that feel like Trump has been antagonistic towards the trans community. I'm not saying that's true or false. I just want to make sure that some of these vulnerable minorities make sure and get represented. And I don't think any of us are experts in this regard, but I encourage you to go investigate that if that's an issue that's important to you. Okay, Daniel, I promise not to reduce anyone to one issue. So what are two of the three biggest from the heart reasons why you voted for Trump as a Mormon or a post Mormon, and did Mormonism have any influence in any of those decisions?

Guest 4 [00:57:43] I honestly think, for me, it was one of the biggest. I honestly don't think I would be voting the way that I was voting if I didn't have my faith transition. Because for me, the biggest issue, hands down, and I realized I might be experiencing this more than places, other places in the country because I'm in Seattle, but just the, the. I mean, some people call it the culture war. I don't really like that term. But the more and more and more and more to, to be associated with the left up here, I feel like you, you have to meet certain standards, you have to follow certain doctrines, you have to use certain language. You even have to, like, dress certain ways. My, My wife, I love her. Is one of the, the people that is super, super apparent the minute you see her that she's, she's probably a member of the LGBT community. She, she enjoys a much more masculine presentation and she's got a side cut and, and all this kinds of stuff. She's been experimenting with how she wants to appear and she has discovered she really likes to take some of my old Hawaiian shirts and wear those button ups in her presentation and had friends literally telling her, hey, you can't wear that because that's a white supremacist thing. And she got really uncomfortable because the last time she had ever heard that was with the church was, you can't wear that. And she said, no, they can't have it. This is, this is mine. I like it. And the only way that it's going to continue to be a symbol of white supremacy is if we let them be the only ones that wear it. And if anybody looks at me and thinks I'm a white supremacist, you know, she was saying this as a woman. But, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:40] So how does that tie to Trump?

Guest 4 [00:59:43] So it's a lot of. Sorry. A lot of it to me just gets back to the. It seems like the left is trying to, trying to have more of a culture of you kind of, you have to adhere to their standards. And I don't, after leaving the church, I don't think I can, I don't think I can support that, the spread of that. And I think it was Rich who was saying, maybe it was somebody else who was saying that. You know, I don't think that,

Guest 6 [01:00:23] I

Guest 4 [01:00:24] don't know if that'll necessarily get, get better under Trump, but I think it'll get worse under Biden. And I think that that might be the case. And so that's one of the big issues for me is because a lot of the people that are, that are doing these things, they, they see the Trump presidency as being so bad that if Biden is elected that a lot of these things will become more mainstay, more commonplace, more. And, and that's something that I don't think I can support. So that's just one of the other issues. And then a big one that's already been mentioned, a huge one for me is the foreign intervention wars. I was thrilled at so many of the peace deals that he's been making in the Middle East. That's been shocking to me and that he's been bringing troops home. He has done quite a bit for veterans. And I really appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] I've noticed those peace deals. And of course, the holy grail in politics is kind of peace in the Middle East. The one skeptical part of me is just wonder. These all came out kind of right before the election. And what it's really hard to know is like, what the actual impact of these announcements are, because they're kind of Recent, and they're kind of announcements. However, just getting people to the table to make announcements can be its own diplomatic accomplishment. I'm sure when these countries are very delicate, they're in very delicate situations. But going back to kind of political correctness and cancel culture, like, I. I try really hard to be an advocate for vulnerable minority populations, so I deeply care about those groups. But I also read a lot of comments about cancel culture and political correctness and policing speech and kind of this liberal eliteness that just turns off a big chunk of the population because it starts to feel like over policing language, over policing behavior.

Guest 4 [01:02:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:33] And some people associate that even with the church. Right.

Guest 3 [01:02:37] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:02:37] And where I draw the line is,

John Dehlin [01:02:39] and also the excommunications, like cancel culture is kind of like excommunicating, kicking people out if they voice. And again, I'm against, like, hate speech and, you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, I'm against all that. But sometimes I think conservatives feel like liberals overreach into speech and other types of areas.

Guest 4 [01:03:00] Yeah. Like. Well, for me, a lot of it is. Is one of the things where, like, I. If I don't think you should have to listen to somebody if they're coming and saying things that you don't want to say. You know what I mean?

Guest 5 [01:03:09] You.

Guest 4 [01:03:09] You absolutely have the right to remove yourself from that space. But if there's 2, 300 people that are signed up that want to hear that person, I don't think that other people should. Should be able to have the right to say, no, you all can't hear that person because of what they're going to say. And in regards to the LGBT community and to people that are saying hateful things, I'm one of the people. And this could be foolish and naive of me, but I'm one of the people that believes that one of the best ways to show how ridiculous somebody's ideas are is to let them speak and then to provide a better counter argument and to show that their argument is ridiculous or full of holes or just doesn't make sense, because otherwise those people are going to seek out that information whether you want them to or not. It's the digital age. Information's all over. And then they might find that information in a place where there is no counter argument, which is just going to lead to more people being radicalized because they're getting that. That information in an echo chamber where there's no counter information to challenge it.

John Dehlin [01:04:21] Yeah. And so I am, you know, I'm disappointed with the people that didn't tune in today or that that quit just because they were uncomfortable hearing the opposing point of view. I think that's deeply damaging to our democracy, frankly.

Guest 4 [01:04:34] Absolutely. And, and I really appreciate you. Your comments after that, that first comment that rolled in, because I. I posted this on Facebook a couple weeks ago of. Just, no matter what your reasons are that you maybe don't want to listen, if you look at a lot of the numbers, there's upwards of 40% of the population that believes this way. And so if there's maybe 30, 40% of the population, which is a huge portion of the population that has had four years of Trump and wants more of him, and a big jump in minority support among black voters and Hispanic voters that have seen four years of him and want more of him. And if that's inconceivable to you, then clearly there's a break in communication somewhere. What are we not understanding about each other? And I feel like the ability to empathize and understand with each other is huge.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] Yeah. Because if you think about it, Trump will get 45 to 51% of the popular vote. He will. Which means if you think that all Trump supporters are dumb or bigoted or hateful or mean, you're basically condemning one out of two people in this country. And it can't be that. It just can't be that simple. And we've got to do better or the polarization and the divisiveness is just going to continue. That's why I'm. That's why I'm doing this episode. I get a lot of beef on Mormon Stories podcasts that I come across as too liberal and that Mormon Stories isn't supportive of conservative groups. And that's one of the reasons also, that I wanted to do this series. But also just to stay on the record, I'm not partisan, even though my progressive sensibilities have sometimes made me lean more towards Democrats in recent years. Anyway, Daniel, it's great. Any final comments before we go to our next guest?

Guest 4 [01:06:28] No, I'm good. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:06:29] Hey, thanks for your comments so far. All right, Tyler, let's bring you on. Tyler, tell us three of the most heartfelt reasons you're supporting Trump and if to any extent, your Mormonism, you're an active Mormon, so your active Mormonism informs that decision.

Politics, Religion, and Personal Journeys

Guest 4 [01:06:50] Perfect.

Guest 3 [01:06:50] Yeah. And I do appreciate, you know, the free speech issue that you had brought up there. I do agree with a lot of that. And, you know, I'm kind of glancing over at the comments. You know, it's kind of disheartening to see some of the things like I saw one say, you know, you have to be morally bankrupt to vote for Trump, things like that. And it's really difficult to come together when one side views the other side as being evil. I don't view the left or the other side as evil. I think people generally are good people and have good intentions, and I just want to make that clear. You mentioned that Biden wasn't your first choice and Trump's not my first choice. I didn't vote for him last time. I think they kind of say, you know, compare him to being immoral and liar and egotistical. And I agree with all those things. You know, my whole thing is if there was an honest, principled, moral candidate, I would vote for him in a heartbeat over Trump. I don't view Biden as any of those things. I have been pleasantly surprised over the last four years at the way that Trump has governed a lot of things, a lot of issues. I've been pleased with his tax policies and, you know, reducing some of those things. I've been very grateful for his foreign, you know, not going into any more wars. I'm very anti war as well, so I appreciated that. Not starting new wars, trying diplomacy. You know, I know there's differences, opinions with North Korea and meeting with Kim Jong Un, but, you know, for me, any conversations and open dialogue and trying to, you know, make peace is a benefit in my book. I think he's brokered, you know, he's in the middle of brokering some historic peace deals with the Middle East. And so all of these things I view as actually way better than what I expected. And so I'm more willing to vote for him this election, even though I didn't vote for him last time because of those things.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Excellent. Does any, is any of that tied to your faith in, in the church at all as a Latter day Saint?

Guest 3 [01:09:28] That's a good question. So I, growing up in my family, we were like, not political at all. My parents never talked about politics, never taught me anything about politics. It wasn't until after my mission that I grew a big desire for American history. And I got into, you know, I love Thomas Jefferson. He's one of my favorite presidents and, you know, read all his biographies and books and I've memorized the Declaration of Independence. I love the principles that, you know, were built there. The wealth of nations by Adam Smith, George Washington. So my political kind of started there and I got very, very conservative and very, you know, limited government principles from that and it was later on that I ended up finding like Ezra Benson and his quotes and you know, DNC 134 talks all about government. And so as I started comparing those things to what I had already read, it maybe just validated for me like oh yeah, you know, the principles of freedom. You know, we're enshrined in our declaration. We're enshrined in our Constitution. And, and they are kind of validated through some of the me and my religious beliefs as well. And so it reinforced it. I wouldn't say that, you know, it was, it was the only part, but it definitely reinforced my political beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:11:01] Excellent. Okay. Anything you wanted to share, Tyler? Just in your introduction, I'll share. As you're thinking about that, I'll share a comment. I'm grateful for comments from our live stream on YouTube and Facebook. We really love comments and questions from our listeners. Please share comments and questions for listeners. Rob writes, Agree, Tyler. Trump has exceeded expectations and has been good for everyone in America. Unfortunately, Dems are dismissing and avoiding Trump's lengthy list of successes. So Rob agrees with you. Tyler,

Guest 3 [01:11:36] did you say an interest, something about an introduction or what were you asking for there?

John Dehlin [01:11:40] Oh, anything. Any other big reasons why you voted for Trump?

Guest 3 [01:11:44] Oh,

John Dehlin [01:11:46] or did you cover him? The main ones?

Guest 3 [01:11:48] Yeah, I think I covered, you know, one of the other, one of the other thoughts. Just I don't view Trump again as like a super intelligent or knowing all the answers. I'm kind of looking at both Biden and Trump as kind of puppets of their base. And when I look at the base of Biden, I have a lot of the fears of, you know, anti speech a lot of political issues that I very disagree with. And I think that Biden just reflects those, you know, having Kamala Harris as his VP candidate is one of the evidences of that.

John Dehlin [01:12:27] What do you like about Kamala?

Guest 3 [01:12:30] What don't I like about her? Yeah, I think she, she's extremely progressive, which goes against everything what I believe as far as. And I guess maybe that's, that that's not a great. But a lot of her, you know, hypocrisy with it, with the criminal justice and with what she did as Attorney General. I just, I think that it's, it's very ironic that a lot of what the Democrats say they care about, you know, in voting for someone like Biden and Harris, it's completely opposite of what they're saying.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] And so let me make sure I understand. Are you basically saying that the Democrats talk a lot about Caring for people of color, the incarceration of people of color, crime, and, you know, the treatment of minorities by police officers. And you're saying that because Kamala Harris, I guess, as attorney general in California, was involved in, you know, putting a lot of people in jail that included people of color. Are you saying that that's hypocrisy for you?

Guest 3 [01:13:40] Yeah, yeah, that's definitely plays a part of it. You know, Harris called out, you know, Biden in the debates and stuff, and, you know, really laid into him about some of his past policies and, you know, that there's credible, you know, accusations of sexual abuse from Biden and things like this and. And, you know, bad racial history with Biden. And she made it seem like it's a big deal, but now it's like, okay, well, that's. That's fine. It's no longer a, you know, big deal for her. And it just shows that it's very. They say things just to get votes, and that's basically what it's kind of boiled down to. And I think the same thing is with Trump. I don't. I don't know what Trump really believes. You know, I mean, he goes out there in front of a church and holds a Bible up, you know, and for me, it's just like, oh, I don't look at you like a religious person. And he's just as fake as, you know, Biden as. I'm not saying that he's better, but they're reflecting what their base wants. And all we want as conservatives is lower taxes, less government regulation in our lives. Stay away from us, and let us do what we want personally to do and give us more our personal freedom. And so I see Trump reflecting those principles a lot more, not because maybe he necessarily believes them, but I see the base of the Democrats and what they want and censoring and a lot of the negative issues that I view. And I think Biden is reflecting a lot of that. And so, yeah, I don't see neither either of them as being super sincere and honest people. But the reason I'm voting for Trump is because I just see a lot of negative issues with Biden.

John Dehlin [01:15:32] Okay, excellent. All right, Tyler, thanks for weighing in. It's great to have you. And we'll have you right back. Okay.

Guest 3 [01:15:41] Okay, sounds good.

John Dehlin [01:15:41] Thanks, Tyler. All right, let's. Let's. Let's round out our opening sort of introduction with. With Wendell Wendon. Want to make sure your audio is good, but we'd love to hear your view as a. As a As a veteran of foreign wars and just as a, as a human being and as a post Mormon, tell us, you know, two or three reasons from the heart why you voted for Trump.

Veterans Issues and Economic Arguments

Guest 2 [01:16:05] I think a big reason is, is veterans issues. Specifically, Trump has expanded the VA Choice program, which allows a lot of veterans to get medical care within their community, paid for by the va. And a lot of times, I think a lot of people don't understand a lot of the medical issues that veterans have. And a lot of our healthcare, for those of us that have service connected disabilities are tied directly to veteran the va. And if you live in a rural area, that might mean if you live in Elko, Nevada or Pocatello, Idaho or Rawlins or Rock Springs, Wyoming, you might have to drive all the way to Salt Lake for medical care. So the choice program has allowed a lot of us to get this medical care. You know, you can get it in Elko, you can get it in Rock Springs or Pocatello, and that is a tremendous benefit to us. And Trump has been a huge advocate of that. Another big issue is the expedited claims. Another thing that I think a lot of people don't understand is that when we, in my, in my case coming back from Iraq, a lot of various weird medical things crop up. And a lot of these can be directly connected to your service in Iraq. But you have to spend a lot of time and a lot of resources and usually have to have help from like the Veterans of Foreign wars or the American Legion or something to help you navigate this process. And it's a complicated, cumbersome process and for many people it can take years. I have, I've had several clients claims that have been, been, you know, languishing for, for four or five years. But he created this process now that many cases, not all, but many cases can be resolved in about 90 days. They put, he pushes the VA to put these on, on a, on a fast track to be resolved. And that helps a lot of veterans who need medical care and need compensation for certain things to get resolved quickly. He also has allowed various contractors to come in and assist the VA in completing these claims. And you know, I can't really say enough that Trump has been an advocate for veterans where Obama was not. And I think that's a critical thing that a lot of people who aren't veterans don't fully understand.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] I'm going to just share a comment from a listener. Chris Clark chimes in. His points on veterans is super valid. I've heard this from so, so many vets Chris goes on to say that many vets felt forgotten during Obama's administration. I have no idea if that's true. That's just what people are expressing. And you, as a vet, are saying you felt the difference 100%.

Guest 2 [01:19:19] I mean, I can't, it's the, the benefits that I've gotten from the VA since Trump has been in have been phenomenal. And it's been the, the care of the VA is improved. Virginia hospitals are improving. And a lot of it, I think, comes from the people he's put in charge of the VA are better people. And I think we just have, right now, we have a better VA system than we've had in the past. So I have to really, you know, that's, that's a very strong point for me and something I'm very, you know, happy to get. So I, you know, I think a lot of people don't fully understand. You know, it's, it's you, you serve in these places and, and you go to a, when you're deployed, I mean, you're living for like a year, year in the land without Walmart. You know, I mean, it's a very harsh environment. Iraq is, and it's, you spend a year living there, you get sun damage. I had hearing problems from sleeping next to a generator for a year. I mean, it's just, it's not a quiet place. It's not a healthy place. And so, you know, there's a lot of issues that you have when you come back that develop over time. And I think the VA has stepped up, and a lot of that is because of Trump. I think another big issue I really worry about, too, is the economy. I think right now, because of the COVID thing, we've had an economy that's been sputtering that like we saw the other day, we have a 33% increase in the GDP, which we didn't think we'd see. And so I think I worry about having an economy that, that is going to spiral, because from what I'm hearing from the Democrats is that we're going to increase taxes, we're going to, you know, possibly lock down again. And at what point does our country slide off the rails economically? The fracking issue. Biden is all over the place on fracking, and a lot of it seems to depend on whether or not he's in Pennsylvania. And I think that that worries me is, is if our fuel industry collapses, then we're going to have a serious dependency on the foreign wars. You know what I'm Saying, yeah, your

John Dehlin [01:21:38] microphone's a little bit far from your mouth, so it's a little bit hard to hear you, but people are hearing you decently enough. But I just want to. There's anything you can do to make the microphone close to your mouth, that'd be great. I, I will try that.

Guest 2 [01:21:50] A lot of it's my voice, my. And my voice isn't always as strong as I'd like it to be.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] Oh, that's fine.

Guest 3 [01:21:55] That's fine.

John Dehlin [01:21:56] Yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great.

Guest 2 [01:21:59] But. But that's just kind of what I feel. I still feel like other people have mentioned about, about our, our freedoms. I just feel there's. What I'm feeling from the Democrats is the, this cancel culture. This, this. There seems to be a conformity that people are demanding that we adhere to. And, and I like being independent. I like being able to, you know, think my own thoughts, and I like to be able to speak freely. I, I worry a lot about, you know, about when I hear him talking about packing the court. We get into this game with the Supreme Court where, okay, so if the Democrats pack the court, add four or five people, what's going to stop the Republicans from doing the same thing when they get a. And again, you know, and then do we have like a 300, you know, people on the Supreme Court? So, you know, that's a difficult thing I worry about.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] Right. Good. That's excellent, Wendell. It's so good to have your perspective.

Guest 6 [01:23:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:23:03] And are you. Let me just ask you, are you. Your phone. You're connected by phone, right?

Guest 2 [01:23:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] I'm wondering if you disconnected your headpiece from the phone, whether we would hear you better. I don't know if that's possible.

Guest 2 [01:23:16] I will try that.

Guest 6 [01:23:17] A lot of it. I.

Guest 2 [01:23:18] My voice is not the best.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] Oh, it's fine. It's fine. Try disconnecting. I'm going to bring everybody else on, and I'm kind of ready for a more, a more general discussion. I've really enjoyed everyone's perspective so far. What I want to do now is, other than thanking everyone for joining us and inviting everyone who's listening to. Please send any questions you have so that we can kind of introduce them to the panel. And I'll ask panelists to go ahead and mute yourself and then unmute when you're ready to talk just so that we can minimize background noise. What I want to do now is jump to kind of the hard questions. This is not, you know, I tried to send you guys these Questions ahead of time. This is not gotcha. This isn't even meant to be contentious. I want to bring up my understanding of concerns about Donald Trump and then give. We're not going to have time for everyone to make a comment on everything. So I want to ask each panelist to keep your comments brief because there are a lot of, a lot of issues I want to talk about. Trump and concerns. This won't be a debate or an argument. I'm just going to say, hey, here's one concern. How do you guys address that? And then we'll go to the next concern. And if any listeners want to share at this point, any Biden supporters want to share their criticisms of Trump or their concerns about Trump, I can make sure that we include those in this conversation. The first issue that I'm most concerned about, as an American, as someone who studied political science, as someone who cares about the constit Constitution, you know, the electoral process is for me, core to our democracy. I mean, definitionally, you know, I mean, we're a democracy because people could vote. And then the peaceful transition of power is something that George Washington, you know, King Andrew VIII was just stunned that there could be a peaceful transition of power from George Washington to John Adams. And we've had that from beginning until present. Never before in my life can I remember such feelings of voter suppression and voter tampering as I've felt during the past year or two. Anything from shenanigans it feels like with the post office to these last minute filings with, with the courts to try and exclude as many ballots as possible, to all of Trump's rhetoric around mail in voting being fraudulent and talking about, you know, votes being thrown away, you know, changing the post office leadership and then sort of this really cagey sort of like, you know, if I lose, it will have been fraudulent, it will have been rigged for me. Take the partisanship out of it. Take it all out of it. When you've got a sitting US President either tampering with or challenging or just openly denigrating the electoral process, that's deeply disturbing, especially during voting time. Like if he wanted to clean up the electoral process, do that in your first couple years, but, but don't do it in the final months before the election. And then he's even gone as far as to make statements that he's not sure he's gonna step down, even if the vote comes through some, you know, reticence. I've never, I cannot remember a president in my lifetime acting in this way about the democratic process, about voting and about the peaceful transition of power. Calling the election rigged before it even happens. You know, but only if he loses is it rigged. So it's, I'm not, I'm, I'm sincerely not trying to trump Bash here. I'm sincerely sharing with you something that I'm deeply concerned about from a nonpartisan perspective. And so who wants, you know, unmute your, who wants to. Rich, give us your response first. What do you have to say about my concerns, Rich?

Election Integrity and Concerns About the Process

Guest [01:27:39] Well, you know, here, a couple weeks ago, Hillary Clinton was on an interview with somebody and said Joe should not concede the election under any circumstances. Okay. You know, I voted, okay. I got my yellow thing in the mail. We both are absentee, my wife and I and my daughter. We vote absentee. I took, we filled it out. I had to sign it. I took it down to the city, right, the city hall, our city hall, and I put it in the mail. I'll put it in the box, not the mailbox. I don't, I don't necessarily trust the mail either. So I put it in the mailbox. That, so it will be there. There's a difference between absentee voting and just mail in voting. Okay. Any, there's stories and, you know, all the stories that you're saying is fine, but there's also stories of, you know, mail being, you know, found in the ditch, mail being found here. People are, you know, are being taped saying that, you know, they're selling their things. There's even a video that was on the, on a website the other day that had a pollster, a pollster in a voting place got a thing from a people and they were filling it out, looking around, filling it out and putting in the thing. And there's also, you know, there's stuff about people buying, well, you need to vote this way, you need to vote that way. So, you know, there's both sides of stories. I think if Trump actually loses the

John Dehlin [01:29:07] election, that isn't it true in any election, there's going to be sort of like a certain level of shenanigans on both sides.

Guest [01:29:15] I agree. I agree. And I think that if, I think if it's proved that a lot of these mail in votes are not legitimate and they're not, you know, up to what they should be. I think they should be thrown out. I don't think the president should step down if it's legitimately there's a problem. But I, I don't think most of the stuff that's going on with the mail in Voting. I think it states that Trump's not going to win anyway. So I'm not necessarily worried about that. Maybe Pennsylvania. I mean, the biggest thing, the biggest thing was on Google was the search after this last debate and the things that Biden has said was, how do I change my vote? People want to change their vote because of the fracking thing and all kinds of stuff. I really don't see Donald Trump, you know, he's not gonna, he's not gonna bolt himself down in the Oval Office and is going to refuse to be removed. I think if he loses and he loses in a fair way, I think, I think he'll say, okay, I'm done. And then he'll go down to Mar a Lago and sit and play golf all day.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] You know, I just don't start Media empire. Okay, really quick. So thank you, Rich, for chiming in on that. Let me just ask other panelists. Are there any panelists that share they can say they share my concern about, about, you know, the question around voting fraud and. Okay, so it's odd that I want you just to agree with me. I, I just don't want to feel like I'm crazy. And I really do think there's some legitimacy, some nonpartisan legitimacy. So, Daniel, I want to hear from you really quickly. You do share my concerns in that regard?

Guest 4 [01:30:56] Well, I mean, I share the concerns around the legitimacy of the election, and I share your concerns with the candidates. Like Rich talked about, Hillary Clinton made a comment, and she may have been referring to early, you know, conceding early, before all the mail in votes were counted. I don't know. But I, I think that, I think that when you have people in both political parties talking about, you know, if the only way, that the only way we'll lose is, is if it's rigged. And I know I've heard Joe Biden say a similar thing of, you know, I think the only way we'll lose is if he tampers with the voting or something. And I think that the big problem with that issue in, in both camps is that when you delegitimize the, the electoral process, it's bad for everybody, because then no matter who wins, there's going to be an uproar. And, you know, I don't necessarily think that's going to be even on both sides, but I think that's something that, that both camps need to stop. And with Trump, I think in part, it's just narcissism to a degree. I think when he says, oh, yeah, you know, the only way we'll win is if it's rigged. I think a lot of it is, is his arrogance and not necessarily a statement of fact. But I think that, that, like, I think it was rich as well said. I think we need to take that seriously as voters. And I think if there is any question, I think we need to have an investigation and that we need to base our decisions and our reactions on the facts that are uncovered through that investigation. That's, that's what I think is important because right now information is so biased and so all over the place and, and a lot of people are exaggerating stories or not saying enough if it's for the party that they're, they're in line with. So I think that it's something we need to watch closely for sure. And it's something that if there's serious questions about, it needs to be investigated. But I, I think it's more like you said, there's going to be a certain amount of shenanigans in any election. And I think that the emotional investment that both sides have in this election is making that increase. You know, whether it's pollsters or people collecting or harvesting ballots that are trying to switch them or whatever, I think that people, a lot of people feel, I think a lot of people on the left feel like it's their civic duty to ensure that Trump doesn't get a second term. Then it's for the best of the country, like lying for the Lord kind of thing. And then I think there's, there's Republicans that feel like their side has been treated unfairly for the past four years, and they need to do something about that. And I don't think either side has a right to tamper with the vote, but.

Guest 2 [01:34:01] Right.

John Dehlin [01:34:01] Okay.

Guest 3 [01:34:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] Thank you. Thank you. Daniel Tyler, did you want to make a quick comment about the voting thing?

Guest 4 [01:34:10] Sure.

Guest 3 [01:34:11] I was just going to say I do agree with you. I find his rhetoric on that unsettling. I, I, I, I'm perfectly willing to call him out for, you know, stupid things that, that he says and does. And so I, I don't appreciate saying things like that. I, I do trust our process and I, I'm, I don't think he's going to lock the door in the White House and, and, and not go through with it. I mean, he says a lot of stuff and, and a lot of. The bigger, well, equally concerning at least, is Biden's refusal to say whether he's going to pack the courts and add justices. I think that's just as destructive to our democratic process. And I find that equally disturbing, if not more disturbing, because I kind of take Trump for what he's worth at the time. But with Biden, I think that there's much serious chance of him packing the court, as opposed to.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] My understanding is that FDR tried to pack the court and it failed catastrophically. So, yeah, that would be. That would be a real. That would kind of. I mean, I. I wanna. I wanna balance Supreme Court as much as anyone, but, yeah, that's a really good point about Biden. He has been cagey about. About whether he's going to pack the court, and that would definitely cause an outrage on the right. And I can see why you'd be concerned about that. All right, let me ask you guys the next question. We're going to go through a lot, so we're not going to be able to go deep on anything, but I just want to get a sense. So the next thing that I have in terms of my biggest concerns about Trump are just. It's just his language. Some people feel like he's a demagogue. Like, he uses intentionally divisive speech, that he uses insulting speech, whether it's making fun of, you know, people with disabilities or people who disagree with him, that he uses, like, slanderous nicknames like Sleepy Joe, or, you know, the fact that a presidential candidate that's supposed to be presidential is, like, giving everyone a derogatory nickname, that his speeches can be very inflammatory and divisive, and that basically, you know, there's this feeling that you want a president that has the highest level of intelligence and who's articulate and who's diplomatic and who shows kindness and compassion and understanding and. And that he's not even a great, you know, it's not a great example for overseas leaders, and it's not a great example for children. Okay, so do any. I'll start with this. Do any of you share those concerns about Donald Trump? Okay, so, Steph, you do. Let's have. Steph, let's have you get in here, because you haven't spoken this round. Sorry, I'll unmute you. Okay, go ahead now.

Biggest Reservations and Criticisms of Trump

Guest 3 [01:37:16] There we go.

Guest 5 [01:37:16] Unmuted. Yeah, definitely share that concern. Sometimes I. I read his tweets or whatever, and I just shake my head and go, what an idiot. And this is embarrassing, but it's not something I can control. But sometimes, on the same token, I do appreciate him being not. Not trying to be silenced or politically correct in everything he says and saying. You know, having the Balls to say what he wants. So I, but I definitely don't agree with. And some of it I know he just does it to create a reaction. Like I said, I played college basketball. There's a lot of trash talking and it's to get under their skin so that they make a mistake. And I think he kind of does that a little bit. Just tries to get under people's skin on purpose. I think he enjoys it for some reason. It's just his personality. Not that I agree with it. Like I said in the beginning, I think his personality is not great. And that's not why I'm voting for him.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] I get that a lot. People saying, I'm not voting for a personality. A lot of, a lot of Republicans say I'm not even voting for his morality. I'm voting either for policy or for other things. And it's just that sort of rhetoric and speech and even personal morality for a lot of people just aren't as important as other things.

Guest 5 [01:38:48] Yeah, like he's, he's not a politician and so he's not been polished and groomed like the other people. You know, this is how you act in politics. And I find it a little refreshing sometimes. Sometimes, you know, not, he's offensive and, but sometimes I just shake my head and laugh and like, I can't believe he said that.

John Dehlin [01:39:08] Right. As a woman, let me just ask you, Steph, where was that. There was that recording they had of him before the previous election where he talked about how he treated women. And I was just wondering after that, how could any woman ever vote for Trump? I was like, he's gonna lose cuz half of America's not gonna vote for him. And of course a lot of women voted out. A lot of women turned out for him and they probably will in this election too. How do you get over that as a woman, knowing that, you know, the divorces, the rumors of infidelity, the. Yeah, the, the rumors about treatment of women, all the allegations. I mean, I do think there's 10 or plus allegations of, of sexual misconduct. I'm just curious as a woman, how you get over that. And I'm not saying any of that's true. These are the things I understand. Okay.

Guest 5 [01:39:58] Yeah. And, and I've heard that about Biden too, a lot of things about his sexual misconduct as well. So it's kind of hard and definitely last election and that the recording you're talking about was, was hard to get over. And probably one of the reasons I didn't vote for him last time I Just there's a lot of jerks in the world, a lot of misogynists. I mean, if I spent my life dodging them all, I would have to sit, you know, in, in my room. So I just know there's people out there like that, and I don't take offense to it. And I, and I'm looking at what he's done in office and what he can do, and I haven't seen anything to where he's hurt women by his policies or anything like that while he's been in office.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. Bob, did you want to make a comment about the kind of the Trump rhetoric, the Trump morality, the Trump, you know, accusations of divisiveness and polarization?

Bob [01:41:05] Yeah. Just a couple quick points.

John Dehlin [01:41:06] I think you may be muted.

Bob [01:41:09] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:41:10] Go ahead.

Bob [01:41:11] Okay, so a couple quick points.

John Dehlin [01:41:13] No, you're good, you're good, you're good.

Bob [01:41:16] Yeah, that was a big problem for me in 2016. I was kind of holding my nose as I voted for him. I did. But it was very difficult to get over that as the last four years have progressed. I see going back to he's not a politician. I, I've become okay with my politicians not having general conference voice. And, you know, coming from more of a businessman background where it's all a negotiation and I see these as tactics and sometimes he fails miserably, sometimes it works out. And so I, I see it as strategic. Might be giving him too much credit, but this is his method and I'm more okay with that now. The other thing I think is, you know, who he really goes after is media leader, world leaders or corporate leaders. He's going after rich and powerful people with a voice. I don't see Trump going after his supporters or regular Americans, at least not, not so much. And I'm okay with him keeping, you know, world leaders to task. But I do see Joe Biden.

Guest 6 [01:42:25] It's strange.

Bob [01:42:25] There are videos of Joe Biden in his own town halls with his own supporters really lashing out at them. If they kind of dare question some of his, his things that he's done, he'll tell him, just go vote for Trump. Or he'll call him that, that weird dog face, dog face, pony soldier thing. But, but calling out someone of his supporters. And I, you know, some of that worries me too. I don't really see either one of these guys. And you mentioned, you know, morality. Politicians are not going to define my morals or my family's morals, so that doesn't bother me. I just feel like that's a conversation I have with my daughters. And, you know, this has got not a guy you look for for your morals.

John Dehlin [01:43:06] Yeah, that makes I. I can totally understand that argument. I mean, you know, Bill Clinton had a sex scandal in the, in the Oval Office, basically, and I voted for him the second term because of other issues. So I can, like, you know, who, who knows what their morality is? And by the way, I object to, like, this, this Christianized standard of morality that's like, who have you slept with? Or did you say a naughty word? You know, I think war. I've already given my bias here. I think war can be one of the most immoral things in the history of mankind because people are killed en masse and, and collateral damage and children and women and just all the awful things. And so I think when we, when we try and apply a Christian or moral morality to politicians, I think it can be very problematic. So. So that's interesting. I. Okay, you mentioned something, Bob, that actually is troubling for me. I do. See, I know that traditionally we're viewed as having three branches of government. The, you know, the executive, the judicial, and the legislative. I have always, you know, as a political scientist, thought of the media as kind of the fourth branch of government in the sense that, you know, free speech is so important. And, you know, I, I have always relied on. On news operations to help educate me. So whether that's, you know, ABC News, NBC News, the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, you know, take your pick. Like, I really, I really appreciate and value the news media. And of course, there's bias on all sides. But it seemed like Trump would just. Anything that was negative about him, he would call fake news. And any reporter that asked him a hard question, he would say fake news. And he was willing to denounce, you know, any media organization, even if they were trying to be, you know, just trying to be fair and asking legitimate questions. So can any of you understand this concern? Yes, there's bias, but just denouncing mainstream media as all, you know, npr, pbs, these institutions try and get both sides. I watch NBC News and, you know, I watch Meet the Press and this Week with George Stephanopoulos. They bring on the conservative pundits and they bring on the liberal pundits, and they do their best to try and do a balanced exchange. I'm concerned, you know, it is. It is a tactic of, let's just say, fascists in the past to denounce and to delegitimize journalists and so I, I know that this is a hot button issue for a lot of you. Any of you, any of you guys have thoughts on that? Let's, let's do Bob and then, and then Daniel.

Bob [01:45:56] Yeah, and I'll be quick since I just spoke, but. Yes, but that is a concerning. I, I don't know if it's, we've never really seen that before but I like that back and forth and I like to see him, he's saying this and the press is going after him hard and I appreciate that. I, I do think there's some issues with how honestly they go after him, but I like an aggressive press that's going to go after him and, and I don't mind him fighting back. I think that they, there has been some false news out there. We don't need to get in details on that. But honestly that's one of the reasons again why I would support Trump is because I know if he's elected again, the Trump is going to be, you know, on his butt for the next four years and they're not going to let him get away with stuff. They're going to continue to be as aggressive as they've been and I expect him to fight back and I like that. I have no faith based on how this election seems cycle has gone that the press is going to keep Biden to task. He's, you know, we don't need to get into all that, but I just don't have faith that they're going to do the same thing to Biden. I would hope that they would. I just don't believe it.

John Dehlin [01:47:04] Thank you. Thank you, Bob. Tyler. Oh, Daniel and then Tyler. Daniel and Tyler.

Guest 4 [01:47:11] Yeah, I mean, similar to, sorry, the, when everybody disappears, I, I forget names, but

Guest 6 [01:47:21] what.

Guest 4 [01:47:21] Thank you. Well, Bob was just talking about. Thank you. I, I completely agree there in that if I have to pick between a president that I, I don't know if the news is going to report all the bad stories about them and a president that they're going to skewer and, and investigate at every turn. Uh, I don't like either one, but I going to take the one where they're, they're investigating him. Extra. The, the lack of some of the reporting on, on some of Biden's things has been troubling. And as far as Trump's attacks on the media, of course that bothers me. He, I think occasionally throws temper tantrums and you can let him throw the temper tantrums as long as the media keeps doing their reporting and Like I think a lot of people in here have said I feel like I have to do more digging on news stories than I ever have before because of how bad the bias is getting. But, but of course I don't support his, his attacks on the media. I understand why he's frustrated after some of the, the extent that the bias has gotten. But I, I'm, you know, I'm not going to support a president actively like dismantling the, the news and I think that a lot of people felt that way and that's why there was that time that he revoked a couple press badges and the public reacted poorly and he had used, I think kind of forced his hand to give them back, which is good that we can keep them in check like that.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] Who else wanted to make a quick comment in this regard? Let's get Wendell in and then Tyler. Wendell, let's unmute you. Okay, I just unmuted you, Wendell, go ahead.

Guest 6 [01:49:00] Okay. I think one critical thing that is also happened is I think the media, it hasn't always been fair to him. I think the media a lot of times attacks him unfairly also. So I think it's kind of a two way street. I think the media has deteriorated in a lot of its reporting. The New York Times has totally seemed to have suspended all traditional journalistic standards and thrown news stories out. They've later had to retract that haven't been accurate. And I think that the media is so determined to get him out of office that they are their standards and their quality has been substandard during the whole four years. And so I, I feel personally that a lot of times I get better news coverage from the United Kingdom and from the Canadian newspapers than I do from the United States one and that's troubling. I think our, our journalists also need to improve to some degree. So.

John Dehlin [01:50:10] Okay, thanks for that perspective, Wendell. Tyler, did you want to add something?

Guest 3 [01:50:18] Yeah. So I do agree with the importance of a press. I actually thought of this Jefferson quote. It says were it left for me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. And the point he's making is that we need a free press and you know, to keep our government in check. And that's actually one of the things that I've appreciated about has been said they are keeping Trump way more in check. I mean you think of, I read this story not long ago but it talked about there's this news article and said Obama's biggest scandal was that he wore a tan suit. And I'm like, are you kidding me? That, like, that's what the media is focusing? Like, no one thinks that that's a scandal. I mean, they, they refuse to cover the, you know, properly cover all the true scandals in there and make it seem like he was, you know, just this perfect president that they never did anything wrong. Whereas I think it's good that we have a press that's holding our elected officials accountable and actually digging in and asking hard questions and actually getting to the bottom of things. I feel like they just let things slide with, you know, Obama and Biden. I mean, we haven't had a good understanding of, you know, that this Hunter Biden stuff and, and a lot of these, these very serious issues that are around Biden, they don't press them on it. And so, you know, that's one of the things that I actually appreciate, that the press actually will hold Trump accountable where they don't hold others.

John Dehlin [01:52:04] Okay, I appreciate that.

Guest [01:52:06] Hey, John, can I say one more thing? Yeah, Rich, we had what. How many years of this Russian collusion thing? How many years. How much stuff of this impeachment sting? Millions and millions and millions of dollars have been spent to investigate all this stuff that Donald Trump wasn't even involved in, which was proved that he wasn't involved in. So he has all these people saying he's doing a lot of things. He's from Queens. He's a fighter. He's going to say what he wants to say, and he's going to. And if you put him in a corner, he's going to fight back. So if the, if the media is painting him as a Russian, you know, Russian person or working for Putin or this impeachment thing with Ukraine, he's going to fight back. And that's just. And you know what? Sometimes I don't like the things he says, but that's just who he is. He's not a politician. He's a businessman from Queens, New York. And if anybody knows anybody from Queens, you know that they're fighters. They don't, they don't back down. They, they talk whatever in their mind. They don't. They treat everybody, you know, I mean, that's just the way they talk. So I don't buy the fake media thing as a, as a knock, because if you watch CNN and you watch these things now, they're so, they're so biased. There's. They don't, they don't say anything about A, B, C and D, but they'll they'll, they'll, you know, Trump sneezes in the wrong direction and he's had a super spreader event, you know what I mean? All this kind of stuff. So I'm just like, you know, I don't, I don't buy it. I just, they are cnn, csnbc, msnbc, you know, abc. You know, if you, I, I don't even get my, my news from Fox News. I go to, like, just, I go to all the stuff on the Internet and I read the stories and the Epoch Times, all these kind of other places, you know, because Fox News is biased too. I mean, if you watch Tucker Carlson or Hannity that, you know, they're on Trump's side, and I, I get that, and it's kind of refreshing to watch that kind of stuff. But if you go to, you know, the daily, you know, Ben Shapiro stuff and you start reading, just read the articles and just see the slant that, you know, Trump is always painted as this horrible person who is killing Americans every day. Gets old after a while. You're like, really? You know, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't even watch the media anymore. I just, I get my stuff through other places.

John Dehlin [01:54:38] Thanks, Rich. Okay, the next big issue some people have and I, and I do kind of share this issue is kind of. He seems to have a real problem communicating his support for people of color. And specifically, there's been a lot made. I, I know on the one hand, he has denounced white supremacy and white nationalism a few times, but then also a lot of it goes on with his tweeting and sometimes his commentary. But he, he is, he has said enough and done enough to where there are a lot of people who feel like he kind of dog whistles for kind of racists and white nationalists within his party. You know, there have been times where he was cagey or unwilling to just explicitly and overtly denounce white nationalism or white supremacy. And even that whole stand down, stand ready comment that he made, along with a lot of his retweets, where he doesn't necessarily say overt or explicitly racist things, but he retreats people retweets, people who are known to sometimes be supporters of white nationalism or white supremacy, those are things that people find deeply problematic. And I'm just sad that this is even a question or an issue. Who, who is, who has done a lot of thinking about this race issue and who, who wants to comment on that as a panel of white people, of course, I'm just going to acknowledge we're all a bunch of white people making comments about that. But who, who, who wants to jump in on that? All right, let's do Daniel then, then. Rich.

Trump, Race, and White Supremacy Allegations

Guest 4 [01:56:35] Sorry. I feel like I've talked a lot, so I was waiting to see if anybody else would raise their hand. But I, I think that the, the hesitation is a problem. And I think that, that one of the, one of the comments that I heard about it that made the most sense was I did hear somebody say, if you watch, it goes in line with a lot of the, not just the comments on race, but a lot of the other comments is that I think he more than having a problem with race. I think he just has a problem when somebody demands that he does something and then has a problem doing, like conceding and doing that. I don't think that's a good thing. I think that's an issue in and of itself. But I, I don't think that it's as related to race. But that's my perspective, you know, when they'll say, you know, we'll denounce that. And then he, he seems hesitant, and then the next day he'll denounce it. I think he doesn't like being told what to do. And again, I think that has its own problems. But I, I've seen, I've seen a lot of that. So that's one perspective that I've heard. I think that it's good that he takes an official stance on it, but, yeah, I mean, his communication definitely could use some work.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] I'm going to bring you just a couple quick comments from. From our listeners. M. Hold writes. Proud Boys love him. I think it's the Proud. Is it the Proud Boys? That's the group that he kind of made.

Guest [01:58:07] The Proud Boys is lead, is led by a Cuban American. He's not, he's not even white, so. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of African Americans in the Proud Boys. The Proud Boys are just standing up to antifa. You know, maybe some of the stuff in that Proud Boys charter, you know, doesn't fully align. But if you look at BLM's charter, I mean, they want to get rid of the nuclear family, they want a welfare state. You know, all these, you know, I mean, we can get into that later. Or what. Or not get into it all. I don't care. Well, you know, Proud Boys, you didn't even know who the Proud Boys were. I didn't even know. I know that it was formed a few years ago. And, you know, they try to paint them in a corner, but it's a Cuban American that runs it. And they have black, they have black members. They're just proud of their country. So, you know, I might get beat up for this. I don't know. You know, someone might say, oh, you don't know nothing about them. But, you know, they're just standing up to Antifa, which Joe Biden thinks is an idea. Antifa is not really happening. It's just an idea. Well, you know, maybe Joe Biden should run over to Portland and be there for the last four months and watch all the buildings getting burned down. You know, I, I heard the other day that, you know, there's two differences between BLM and Antifa. Antifa will burn stuff down and stand outside and spray paint all that, and BLM will go in and take everything inside. That might be a racist comment. I'm sorry if you feel that way, but you don't see the conservatives, you don't see the conservatives going out and building and burning down buildings and just because we're not getting our way, you know, I mean, that's a whole nother subject. John, I know you want to talk about.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] No, let me. So let's jump into that first. So, so I appreciate, Rich, you, you bringing that up, because that is one of the things I, I really want to, to address really, really quickly. There, There are a few comments that I, that I just want to throw up here. So, so there's basically somebody says, john, you're being biased by asking these tough questions. I just want to make sure everybody knows I'm going to ask the tough questions to Biden, too. I gave everyone over an hour to share what they like about Trump, what they favor for Trump. I think it's okay to spend an hour talking about the criticisms. That's part of why I think this is valuable. So those of you who are saying that I'm biased just because I'm asking, you know, challenging or tough questions, that's. I think that's, that's important. You know, there are people that are saying, how hard is it to denounce white white supremacy or white white extremists? I do wish that there was just never any hesitancy because I do think, I do think he could put that issue to bed if he wanted to. But I also think that part of his base, for better or for worse, if, if Biden's got extremists, leftists, you know, let's just say socialists or communists that support him Then Trump's gonna have potentially a certain amount of white nationalists or racists supporting him. And so I would think that if we want to be charitable, that if we're trying to understand why he's had such a hard time just being really explicit about this, is it fair to say that it might be because he doesn't want to alienate part of his base?

Guest [02:01:20] Well, he, you know, he got rid of David Duke. David Duke supported him for the 16 election. He said, I disavow David Duke. He said it over.

John Dehlin [02:01:29] That's right. He did do that. He did do that.

Guest [02:01:31] And find it where he said over 18 times that he disavows or he doesn't like the white supremacy.

John Dehlin [02:01:39] And I guess it's fair to say. How many times does he have to say it? I think it's fair to say if they keep bringing it up, it's almost its own way to paint him as a racist if they just keep bringing it up and bringing it up. And so I can see the argument, I don't love it, but I can see the argument that, like, he's just sick of them bringing it up over and over again when he's, when he's tried to make that really clear. Bob, I saw in your face you wanted to make a comment about this. Is there something you want to say about this?

Bob [02:02:04] I, I don't even remember what it was when I had a reaction, but on the last one, yeah, I couldn't, I can understand, you know, as an, as an attorney, the typical analogy is asking, you know, somebody when the last time is that they beat their wife. At a certain point, it's, it's just a kind of a media driven narrative that he hasn't adequately addressed this. I don't know. At a certain point, I could see him getting frustrated with it. In the last debate, he did not do a good job. I, I, he said, sure, I'll, you know, I will denounce it. He said sure, twice. But he got, he got talked over and then he didn't come back to address it. So I wish he had done a better job on, you know, know, the national stage of doing it. But he does have three years of doing that. And then I was also going to say, yeah, judging, you know, people by who the, who supports them from the extremes. In addition to the David Duke thing, Richard Spencer actually endorsed Biden this year, who's also a well known white supremacist. So it gets murky when you try to, you know, get into, you know, at what point Is it adequately addressed when. When I think the media is the one that keeps driving this narrative.

John Dehlin [02:03:17] Right. There's a comment from Kimberly I'm going to show. She says, john, did you just equate white supremacists and socialists? You know, no, that's not what I'm trying to say. I think what I was trying to say is there, you know, I'm pretty sure, you know, I heard Kamala Harris explicitly say she's not, you know, not trying to support socialism, that she's not a socialist. And I know for sure that Biden would deny being a socialist. But I'm saying that on the further left of the, let's just say, liberal or Democratic camp, there are people that would identify as socialists. And I'm just saying that that's a group that Biden would need and Kamala Harris would want or need to. To try and not totally alienate, but still not too closely identify. And I was just saying that that's an example of a group on the left that Biden and Kamala would want to court their vote, but not alienate. And I was basically just saying that my sense is that there is a group of white supremacists or white nationalists on the right who would normally tend to revoke conservative of Republican. And I was just speculating that Trump would want their votes and that maybe his reticence to denounce could be because of his desire to not alienate their vote. That's all I was trying to say. You know, please don't take. Take the most uncharitable interpretations of what I'm trying to say. Let me.

Guest [02:04:58] Rich, he's already said, he said it several times, that he does not want the white supremacist vote. And if you really look at how many white supremacists there are in this country, the number is minimal. I, you know, I mean, I, I don't even know anybody like that. And, you know, I, I've been out across the whole United States and I've never seen anybody like that. Doesn't mean they don't exist. I agree. They do exist, and they should be disavowed. I don't, you know, I, I would say a majority of the conservative people like myself do not have those views.

Guest 5 [02:05:28] We.

Guest [02:05:29] We just don't. We love everybody. We like to, you know, and I, I wrote something down really quick about tolerance. It just seems like the right or majority of the right is more tolerant of people's opinions. And I don't know how you think, John, or how you how the other panel thinks. And I'll, in a minute, I'll shut up and let everybody else, because I feel like I've been talking too much. But, you know, we, when, when, let's just say when Obama won. I didn't vote for Obama twice. I voted for, you know, Bush and everybody else. And, and, you know, we were taller. Okay, eight years of Obama. We'll just have to live with it. Now, the shoes on the other foot. And it was, let's get, you know, they've been trying since six, since 2016 to try to get Trump his illegitimate election. He stole it from the Electoral College. Know, it's, it's been this big thing that I don't understand, and it means apples to oranges. Conservatives sit there and say, okay, you know, we can, we can deal with this. I mean, we'll just deal with it. We'll just work every day and we'll pay our taxes and we'll deal with it when next election, we'll just, we'll vote a Republican in. It seems like the left, the whole, the sky is falling. It's Henny Penny. You know what I mean? No, no. The sky is falling because no one, they're not tolerant. I mean, I don't know. It's hard to, it's hard to, to say what I want to say because, of course, this is kind of a weird thing, but I just don't see a whole lot of tolerance on the left. You know, you can't, yes, you can't say that. You can't say this, you can't say that.

John Dehlin [02:07:01] But when it's that, that is a weakness of the left. The, the left can come across as elitist, as smarney, as smug, as intolerant. And I think that that drives some appeal to Donald Trump's side. Let me bring up another issue that's really important to me, and it ties to this antifa thing. I am a huge hater of unfounded, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. If you follow Mormon Stories podcast, you'll know I did this series on satanic ritual abuse. I'm against child abuse. I'm against sexual abuse. I'm against sexual predators. And I'm also against wild, crazy conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact and that, in fact, do a lot of damage for a lot of reasons. And so when the QAnon stuff started emerging, which was this idea that Oprah and Bill, the Clintons, Hillary Clinton and any liberal you don't like, Tom Hanks, whoever, that they're all part of this cabal of. Of child abusers that have a center in the basement of a pizza parlor that doesn't even have a basement. And basically, Trump is the savior of this cabal of QAnon inspired child abusers. I really hate the fact that QAnon has been associated with Donald Trump, and I hate the QAnon conspiracy theories, and I hate that Trump is retweeted. QAnon tweets, you know, dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of times. And I don't. I think I'm on pretty solid ground with everything that I just said. And. And so I just want to, you know, and then when Trump was asked about QAnon in a really cagey way, he acted like he didn't know who they were, even though he had retweeted their stuff, you know, so. So many times, and he was unwilling to just announce it and say that it's, you know, not, you know, that it is a conspiracy theory. So I'm wondering, number one, do any of you sort of, like, agree that QAnon is an unfounded scare tactic, you know, conspiracy theory that's just trying to tie the left with child abuse so that they can inflame the passions of people and. And get them to vote when it's really not really founded in reality? Any. Any thoughts on QAnon? Okay, Steph, we haven't had you talk for a sec. You're. You're muted. Let me unmute you. I'll unmute you, Steph.

QAnon, Antifa, and Conspiracy Theories

Guest 2 [02:09:46] Go ahead.

Guest 5 [02:09:47] Okay. Yeah, I agree with you on that. That, like, I've. I've read about it just because I think it's interesting and watched, you know, a lot of videos on it, because I'm like, wow, this is crazy stuff. But there's no. Yeah, I haven't seen any proof for it. So I. But I do believe in the deep state that there are other forces behind, you know, probably both parties is making them corrupt, that have a lot of money. They're in influencing people to do politicians to make policies and laws, you know, that will affect them and maybe not be in the best interest of the people of the United States. So that was something big in this election that I was like, I have to figure out what the truth is. I have to figure out what the truth is, because being Mormon, I was, like, told a certain way and found out it wasn't true, and it was really traumatic. But so either I'm totally fooled, which is possible because I was a Mormon for 30 years fooled that way, or I do. I Do believe that one of the, the things, another decision I'm voting for Trump is that he is less corrupt than the other side. I won't say he's not corrupt because so that was one of my influences is, is he's less influenced by the deep state than the other side. But as far as the crazy conspiracy theories, no, I don't.

John Dehlin [02:11:19] Yeah, so, so I just want to acknowledge that like money and power and corporate interests and special interests have been, have been backing politics since the very beginning. You can't separate the two. So when you say deep state, if you mean vast corporate and financial interests that have undue political influence, I believe that's true. I believe that's true on both sides. You know, I'll never forget when Enron was discovered to have been a massive donor to both the Republicans and the Democrats. I don't think either party is, you know, is clean from, from corporate interests. Now there's going to be strengths and weaknesses there. But I'm talking about, you know, conspiracy theories right now and I'm even getting some of our listeners. So Sister Starseed writes, wow, John, this makes me curious about your spons sponsors. So she's basically alleging that I have sponsors that are pressuring me to be against QAnon or they'll cancel my money. I'm going to say right now I've never had any donor ever talk to me about QAnon ever. This is, you know, this is because I hate conspiracy theories and I believe they do damage. And this has nothing to do with any of my sponsors. And if you believe that, you're just purporting another conspiracy theory. I think it's silly. Others who want to talk about QAnon and then we'll talk about Antifa. Any quick thoughts on Bob and then Tyler on Q Anon?

Bob [02:12:51] Yeah, I'll be quick. Just for the record, I had no idea what QAnon was until I think you, John, posted something asking about it on the Mormon Stories page. First time I heard about it was then. I don't know any Trump supporters who would know what it is or support. I just don't. I think it's a very fringe. I still don't really understand and I don't know, I don't want to but for the record, I don't know any Trump supporters.

John Dehlin [02:13:16] No, but, but I mean there have been lots of reports of people showing up to Trump rallies with, with shirts and hats that reference Q&QAnon. I don't think that's totally false. I do think that conspiracy theories tend. I guess that's not true. There's probably, there's certainly conspiracy theories on both sides of the aisle, but the QAnon conspiracy theorists tend to be more on, on the right.

Guest 3 [02:13:39] I'll say.

John Dehlin [02:13:39] Tyler, what did you want to say about QAnon?

Guest 3 [02:13:45] I was going to say the same thing. I mean, I, I'm feel like I'm pretty politically active and, and up to date on stuff and never heard of this, you know, QAnon stuff or whatever. And, and it's just interesting that you, you can find fringe, weird conspiracy and thought processes in any group. And so I'm not denying that there are those types of thoughts, but the idea that it's like big or rampant, I think is, is very misguided. It's like comparing the Proud Boys to Antifa. I mean, I hardly know who the Proud Boys are either. They're, you know, couple. I don't know how many they are or what they do exactly. But if you look at the damage and destruction done by Antifa and try and compare that, you know, and say Proud Boys is, is the right version of that. I just think it's completely misguided to say that there's any similarities as far as the, the destructiveness and the, the, the negative effects of these, these two things. You know, we, we spent a lot of time and months and of hearings over this, you know, Steele dossier and different left conspiracies that, that we take seriously and, and you know, that they end up being nothing but you know, also going kind of like white supremacists. Like, I, I don't think that there are that many white supremacists. And, and that, that, that's a huge issue. Yes, there are out there and I, we, we should full all white supremacy and racism and hate. So that, that's terrible. But, but to make this seem like, you know, out of the 300 million people that there's 50 million white supremacists or whatever. I've tried to understand the left's position on, on racism. I've read Ibram X Kendi's two books. I've read Robin d' Angelo's White Fragility. And I just view those as negative ways to overcome racism. I'll go back to kind of Sam Harris. You know, he's, he's a liberal atheist, but he talks about how we have to view, we have to get to the point where we view skin color like we view hair color or eye color. It can't be an issue. And, and the More. The left wants to bring this to be an issue and to divide it, to divide us and separate us to black and white and, you know, have. Have different policies that favor one versus the other, things like that. I just think it's the wrong way to go. I think in order to overcome racism, we have to see each other as all human beings, as all, you know, people worthy of respect. And the more we divide each other,

John Dehlin [02:16:32] the super thoughtful Tyler, one of our listeners, says, preach on, man. This guy knows what's up. Another says she wants to hear more from Stephen. I really do regret that we don't have a more balanced panel in terms of women and people of color, but we did the best. We literally did the best we could. Okay, I'm going to move to a topic that's really controversial. It's Trump's handling of COVID And I'm just going to say that to some extent, it's, you know, deaths would have happened regardless who is president. The biggest concerns I have about Trump are the way that he seemed to kind of make fun of mask wearing and stigmatize mask wearing and hold these massive rallies where people are clearly not wearing masks, including holding a super spreader event, you know, at the White House. And then the way he's been kind of derogatory about Fauci and science in general, I feel like that just was not helpful. That's not the type of leadership we needed. What I feel like we needed was a president that would wear masks, that would follow the guidelines of his own health organizations, and that would run events that followed the guidelines of their own health organizations, and that would not disparage science and certainly not disparage your. Kind of your head, you know, disease epidemiologist guy who wants to speak about Trump's handling of COVID Rich, you want to go first this time?

COVID-19 Response and Mask Debates

Guest 4 [02:18:10] I'll go really quick.

John Dehlin [02:18:12] Let's keep the comments punchy and brief.

Guest [02:18:15] Okay. Fauci in February said, mass don't do any good.

John Dehlin [02:18:21] Did you hear Fauci's discussion of that

Guest [02:18:24] on a 60 Minutes interview on TV when he says, I don't think. First of all, he said, it's not a big deal in America. Then he said, mask will never work.

Guest 3 [02:18:33] Wait, wait, wait.

John Dehlin [02:18:33] Let me just say I. I listened to Fauci, interviewed on 60 Minutes recently, and I'm just saying I heard his explanation, which was.

Guest [02:18:39] I'm talking six months ago.

John Dehlin [02:18:41] Yeah, yeah. Early on, he didn't have the evidence yet that masks would be quite effective. And then as soon as he Got the scientific reports that actually masks could be more effective. He changed. And I know I'm not critical of someone who changes their position based on evidence and based on science. And so it's okay. I don't mind you sharing your opinion. Obviously, I want your opinion, but I just don't want to misrepresent the fact. By his own account, he was changing his policy based on his understanding of the science at the time, which is what I want, versus a, you know, disparaging science and saying science is worthless.

Guest [02:19:21] Well, if you got to know, too, that, you know, Fauci was saying everybody should lock down and everybody should stay. And Pelosi and. And de Blasio were out in their city saying, yeah, come on in. This is after Trump did the travel ban. So, you know, I mean, the reason why this is such a touchy subject is because no one knows anything. Okay? Even today, we know a lot more about what's going on. But back, you know, back in February and March, no one knew anything. No one knew how this thing spreads. No one knew anything. The CDC would come out with one thing. The CDC would come out with another thing. The HWO would come out with one thing. Fauci would say another thing. The President would say something. Nobody knew anything. And now we know a lot more about this disease and that, you know, and. And so wear a mask. You know, I wear a mask when I go to the store or when, you know, I own a business. I have to wear a mask. I, you know, I don't believe that they work very good. But that's just my own opinion. But I will wear one just because, you know, I have to, you know, But I don't think. I don't think. I think 200,000 people would have died anyway. You notice you don't hear any flu deaths. You don't hear in any pneumonia deaths. People are getting strep throat like crazy right now. You don't hear any cancer deaths. Cancer kills, like 600,000 people a year in America. Do we hear anything about that? Do we shut down the country because people are dying of cancer?

John Dehlin [02:20:42] So, Rich, you don't feel. You don't feel like Trump was irresponsible with not wearing a mask?

Guest [02:20:51] I don't know how you guys feel about this, but no one. We didn't know. No one knew anything. We heard several opinions about what. What might happen, what doesn't happen, what works, what doesn't work.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] Okay, okay. All right, Rich. I appreciate that perspective, other people's perspective on Covid steph Do you want to say something? Let me unmute you first, Steph. Okay. You're unmuted.

Guest 5 [02:21:16] Sure. Yeah. A lot of people are, you know, in the debates, especially criticized the president at the beginning of the way he handled it at the beginning, didn't take it seriously, didn't let the people know. I, I'm not sure exactly what they wanted him to do because we, he didn't, we, he didn't know a lot about it. And, and he, he said his reasoning was he didn't want to, you know, create fear. And I, I, I feel like that's a, that's a good reason because I, I already saw the fear. I saw people running out, taking everything off the shelves of toilet paper. And it, it could have been worse if he would have said, hey, you're all going to die. Like, hurry, run out or hurry, we're going to shut in. Hurry, take everything up. Like, that's just not a good way to govern either. So I know there's a lot of criticism the way he handled it, but I'm not sure what else he really could have done at the beginning. And the mask wearing. Yeah, I think that he wasn't on board at first and he kind of did not think it was, you know, maybe effective. But I've heard him since then saying he has no problems with masks, wear masks. He said it several times.

John Dehlin [02:22:24] So what about the ways the big events, you know, where people aren't wearing masks and they're sitting close together. He kind of, he kind of makes fun of Biden. So Biden tries. This is just my understanding. I'm sure Trump would get bigger crowds than Biden because he, frankly, he's entertaining to listen to. But, but Biden's trying to hold these more responsible events with cars and people separated. And then Trump will make fun of Biden for his, for his smaller crowds, but then have all these people packed in not wearing masks? Isn't that problematic? A little bit.

Guest 5 [02:23:02] It could be problematic. I just don't think that you can, you know, control everybody. Say, like, I guess you can, but I don't know if it's the right thing. Do. If people want to show up, that's their, their risk. I have Covid right now. Just, just so you know, I'm isolating at home. My, my son got it at school.

Guest [02:23:22] School.

Guest 5 [02:23:22] He's been sick the last week. I have a sore throat right now and major headache. But, yeah, I think it might be a little irresponsible on his part. He could maybe do a little Better job saying, hey, if you're going to come to my events or a mask. Yeah, I can, I can go with you on that one.

John Dehlin [02:23:44] Okay, Wendell, Wendell, you've been in and out on your connection, so let's get you in and, and you can talk about anything you've heard so far that you. We haven't given you a chance to opine about, but try make your comments kind of briefer.

Guest 6 [02:23:58] All right.

Guest 2 [02:23:59] Well, I think I have to agree with. With what we heard about the, you know, about the, about the masks. It's. I'm not so sure that the. What he's done, anybody else could have done better. I think this virus is a. Is virus and it's going to spread, and it's. I think we're all going to get it anyway, whether we wear masks or not. I. I think like we've said, the, you know, the science is. Is. Is definitely saying that that mask can work, but I think we're all. We're all going to get it.

Guest 6 [02:24:31] But.

Guest 2 [02:24:33] And as far as the human thing goes, I think I don't know much about that myself either. And I don't know how much of that is the media trying to create it to be something. And I don't know. That's pretty much all I got to say about that, so. Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] Oh, that's good. Hey, I'm gonna ask you, Wendell, to unplug that microphone and just try talking to the microphone on your phone. I think it might get better because I think we might just get better audio from you on that if. If you can.

Guest 6 [02:25:01] There we are. Can you hear me now?

John Dehlin [02:25:05] Try it again.

Guest 6 [02:25:06] Can you hear me?

John Dehlin [02:25:07] I think it's still connected.

Guest 6 [02:25:09] No, it's off. I just shut it off.

John Dehlin [02:25:11] Okay, I think that's. I think that's a little bit better.

Guest 6 [02:25:13] Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting the bad connection one way or the other, so I. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:25:17] Well, we really like your perspective, so I don't want you to have to go.

Guest 6 [02:25:21] Well, I'll stay as long as I'm here.

John Dehlin [02:25:25] Okay.

Guest 6 [02:25:25] Disappear. I'll be gone. So.

John Dehlin [02:25:27] Okay. All right, so

Guest 2 [02:25:33] see,

John Dehlin [02:25:35] what. What are your guys's response? I think we're kind of getting towards the end. Well, let me just ask around the panel. Do any of you have, you know, there's a lot of this sentiment that it's not always voting for somebody, it's voting against somebody else. So let's go around the room and just talk about, you should say your one biggest concern about Joe Biden and Kamala.

Fears About a Biden-Harris Administration

Guest 3 [02:26:03] Harris.

John Dehlin [02:26:04] And let's start with you, Tyler. Do you mind if we start with you?

Guest 3 [02:26:09] Sure. So I would say actually was gonna do this in my introduction, but a couple things about me. I'm actually a professional pickleball player, and I'm a billionaire. And I was gonna show you this right here. I got it. A billion dollars. The only problem is it's, it's Zimbabwe money. Yeah. So I, I, I have that Zimbabwe money to kind of show that the concerns I have of, of inflation and of, of our overspending with government and we're already $27 trillion in debt. We, we can't sustain this, this path. And so my biggest fear with Biden is implementing huge programs that are going to even further make this worse. I don't know that we're to the point where we can ever recover or fix it, but we can definitely make it worse. And I think the social programs and the overspending and saying that he's going to pay for it by taxing the rich, it's not going to work. It's going to fall on us as a middle class. We're going to have to print more money, which we're already doing. And the more money we print, the more inflation hyperinflation comes up, and we are going to, you know, our currency will collapse at some point. And so I just, I don't agree with the path that he's trying to lead us down. There's actually some reasonable. You know, I liked Tulsi. If Tulsi had been the nominee of the Democratic Party, I probably would have voted for her. I think she's very reasonable and has, you know, some, some good insights on things. But like I said, the fact that it's Joe Biden and the fact that he picked Kamala Harris shows how progressive he's, he's wanting to become. And I think it's just going to be bad for our economy and our currency.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] You know, when I talk to my mom, my mom's just like, it's the economy. I don't want to, I think socialism will financially bankrupt our country. I do think that's a viable, I totally think that's a viable perspective. Some might disagree whether we already have a socialist economy to a large extent, but I appreciate and value fiscal conservatism. But we're getting a lot of comments in Tyler about the fact that the national deficit and the debt has actually ballooned under Trump. And so that's always been, my concern is traditionally, Republicans and conservatives have been associated with fiscal responsibility. But I don't think in terms of actual effectiveness, the numbers have really gone that way. Does that make sense, Tyler?

Guest 3 [02:28:59] Oh, I 100% agree. You know, if you look at our debt incline, it's been going up. It's always going to be going up. And until we get someone in there that's actually going to go in and start making the cuts that we need to military, social, all of the cuts, I think we need to do all of them, address all of them. So I'm not saying Trump has been the answer. Trump, Trump's been terrible. He's spending, you know, just as much or more than you know. And, but we're already on this course of going up. And so I'm not saying Trump is the answer or that he's resolving it. I'm saying Biden and socialist Democratic, you know, social welfare programs that we're going to try to implement are just going to speed it up even faster than what we're going to. And so yeah, I don't agree that Trump has been good on it and that, that he's, he's, he's been a great response. We need someone better. It's very disheartening to have Biden and Trump as our two two options to choose from that neither of them are good. I just think Biden's worse.

John Dehlin [02:30:04] Almost everybody I talk to feels that way. I, I don't know a lot of Trump love there. I know a few Trump lovers that just love him, but most of them say I can't stand him. But the alternative is much worse. A lot of people feel that way. Wendell, what are, you know, what is your biggest fear about Biden and Kamala Harris?

Guest 6 [02:30:25] I think my biggest fear is what we've talked about regarding the loss of freedoms, the economy getting side railed and I think a downward spiral into the depression. I don't see any way with a green New Deal and with a tack with getting rid of the tax cuts during this Covid thing that the economy would improve. Everything from what I've heard just sounds like a downward spile spiral. So that's my biggest fear. And then I, I think the Democrats Party party biggest problem is is who they selected. I don't believe Biden was elected because he was the best candidate, but I think he was selected because he could be the best manipulated. And so I think that's why he is in the position he's in is because he can be manipulated by others. And I think there are a lot of other people who aren't interested in Being elected, who are interested in running Biden. So that's my biggest fear, is who are actually getting.

John Dehlin [02:31:29] Thank you, Wendell. Yeah, a lot of people, I have to admit, I, you know, this whole thing about fracking and natural gas kind of bugged me just because on the one hand, I mean, I do think fracking is really bad for the environment, so. But. But I also use a lot of gas, oil and gas. And so I guess I'm a hypocrite in that regard. But. But I do really like the idea of moving towards solar and natural energy to the extent that we can. And so it's tricky. I don't always like. But Biden was so ineffective about how he communicated his position on oil and fracking. It's all just so frustrating. But, but for me, what I like about the Green New Deal is just that maybe a lot of jobs can get created in a way that helps us pollute our environment less. But at the same time, I can understand my mom. That's the one thing she says. Green New Deal. Green New Deal. We can't have the Green New Deal. And I like the point you made, Tyler, about the billion dollar. We all know I lived through Argentina having mass inflation and what that did to the country. And it, it, it destroyed the economy of several countries. And so I respect the idea about bankrupting our country. You know, whether or not the Green New Deal is going to do that or not is a different thing. Daniel, what is it that you would say you dislike or fear most about a Biden Kamala Harris presidency?

Antifa, Protests, and Unrest in American Cities

Guest 4 [02:33:12] Well, I, I was bummed that I missed the antifa question, being the representative from Seattle.

John Dehlin [02:33:19] Well, we do. We need to do that. But go ahead.

Guest 4 [02:33:22] They tie in together. So it'll all be one answer. But it. What I've seen up here, at least a lot is groups like Antifa.

John Dehlin [02:33:33] You're in Seattle.

Guest 4 [02:33:35] What's that?

John Dehlin [02:33:36] Where are you again?

Guest 4 [02:33:38] I'm in the Seattle area.

Guest 3 [02:33:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:40] Okay. Yeah. Before you talk about Antifa, I just want to ask something very clearly because I wanted to talk about this after QAnon and I didn't get to like, how do we know that Antifa even exists? There's people who posted in who's the leader? Does it even exist? And these rioters that are rioting, how do we know that they're tied to Antifa? I could imagine a scenario where conservatives would want to sponsor rioters. And this is a conspiracy theory, so I'll just admit it. How do we know the identity of the people doing destruction? How do we know they're from Antifa? And then how do we know that Antifa even exists? And if it exists, who's its leadership? So before you talk about fearing Antifa, I just want to ask, is it another conspiracy theory like QAnon? And if not, how do you know that Antifa is actually a real thing?

Guest 4 [02:34:35] Well, to, to keep it brief because I know we were getting to the end and I, and I'm. My connection cut out for a while. Whether or not you want to call the man TIFA or, or look for a leadership structure or anything like that, there, there is a group of people in a movement that believes that they can affect the vote by fear. And I have friends that have this mentality on Facebook that have had conversations with me on Facebook that say, you know, we need to force the people not to vote for Trump. We need to force people from. It's, it's our right to protect other communities, to scare the people out of voting for Trump. So I know people with that mentality, whether or not there's an organized structure or whether that's just kind of a mentality and a mindset going around, that is what I worry about. Because to me, there's a large feeling of that up here. And to me, if, if Joe Biden wins, to me, I feel like it'll be validating to them in the sense that we can bully people, we can use fear, we can, you know, use violence, and we will, and, and it will get the outcome that we want. And so that's, that's a big concern for me that, you know, it's not a direct problem with Joe Biden, but with, I feel like the Democratic Party, that there was a lot of people getting let off. There's a lot of the DA's up here that aren't charging people. Again, not a direct problem with Biden, but I feel like as a leading member of the party that Biden should come down on those people and say, hey, why aren't you pressing charges? And stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:36:33] So your view, and you live in Seattle, and Seattle has been impacted along with Portland. In your view, the people doing the rioting of the protests or the violence, you know, that they're, they're, you feel very confident that they're liberal, they're supporters of liberal progressive politics, they're supporter of supporters of Biden, and the ones that are committing the most amount of vandalism or violence. Are Biden supporting liberals that are associated with Antifa. That's your under. That's your view As a Seattle resident?

Guest 4 [02:37:06] Well, not necessarily so. The ironic thing is they don't like Joe Biden. They. Most of them hate Joe Biden. Most of them are a lot of the people that feel like Joe Biden stole the. The candidacy from either Bernie Sanders or one of the other Democratic candidates, but they feel like Biden. They feel like Biden will appease them a little bit more than Trump, that Biden will. Biden won't stand up to them as much because they're a lot more afraid of the opposition from the left because they need. They need a lot of the left. And I will say it's definitely not everybody. My wife and I, we were. I was hopeful for the first, like, three or four days with the whole Capitol Hill autonomous zone thing. When they were like, it'll be the summer of love. I was like, that would be nice. And then as soon as they started handing out guns, I was like, oh, no, this is. This is gonna go so bad so quick. Why do you need guns when you won't let the cops in with guns and stuff like that? So that goes along with some of the comments about the. The antifa discussion that we were going to have. And with one of my main fears about Joe Biden, it's. It will Joe Biden being elected, that it'll show that cancel culture is working, that fear tactics are working, that, you know, violence is working.

John Dehlin [02:38:23] And you wish that Joe. You believe antifa is a credible threat and you wish Joe Biden would denounce it.

Guest 4 [02:38:30] I. I wish that he. So he said to stop the violence in the protests. And I wish he would be a little bit more adamant about that. I'm a little bit more clear about that. But he has, but just the. Just the. The whole expanding it more than that. Stop harassing people, you know, to try to get them to. To vote the other way. Stop demonizing people that are, you know, are going with the other party.

John Dehlin [02:38:59] And.

Guest 4 [02:38:59] And he said some things along those lines. But it's. There's a. There's a mindset and a group of people that feel that they can do that. And I feel like Joe Biden getting elected will. Will reinforce that.

John Dehlin [02:39:14] Excellent. Thank you, Daniel. Steph, let's go to you. What are your biggest fears or concerns with Biden Harris candidacy?

Guest 5 [02:39:26] It. It's kind of what it came down to me. Like, what I mentioned before was the two candidates. Who is more compromised and who is more free to make decisions based best on the American population. And especially the recent events with, you know, Biden and If. If all this stuff is true on Hunter Biden's laptop, which I'm not saying. Saying it is, I saw interview with Tony Bobulinski. That was pretty credible. That's really scary. And he's really compromised, and that could be a big threat. So that's one of my fears is if that's true.

Bob [02:40:03] I don't.

Guest 5 [02:40:04] I hope it's not. And I. Like I said before, I. I feel like his side is. Probably has a lot bigger donors as far as, like, Hollywood High, you know, people that have a lot of money. And so I feel like their site is more compromised because. Because of the money.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Special interest.

Guest 5 [02:40:23] Yeah, special interest. And I could be totally wrong. I could be totally fooled, but that's. I try to find the truth, and when I have. I have too many breakdowns, but nothing's true. I can't find. I find conflicting information everywhere I go. Everyone's like, oh, f this guy, F that guy. Like, he's. He's like, he's wrong. He's wrong. They're liars or liars. And it's just. It's so hard to find the truth. So I just have to go with the. The information that I have and, and make the best decision based on. I guess it comes down to feeling. Even though I hate that, but because I can't find proof, exact proof, this guy's good, this guy's bad. So, you know.

John Dehlin [02:41:04] Right. Yeah, that's good. Thank you, Stephen. Rich, let's get you in. What are your biggest fears with. With Biden Harris?

Guest [02:41:15] Well, my biggest fear is this. You know, you listen to AOC and Ilan Omar and all this kind of stuff about the Green New Deal. Even Kamala Harris being the most liberal senator in the Senate last couple years, voting this thing in. She was one of the writers of it. And, you know, John, you're from Texas. I lived in Texas for 20 years. I was in the fracking business. Fracking. I have seen it firsthand. I've been on. On the sites, you know, hauling stuff to the sites. And fracking to me is. Is. Is the cleanest way to get oil and natural gas. I mean, what's cleaner than natural gas? My biggest. My biggest concern is getting rid of fossil fuels. When he said. He didn't say that in the last debate, I mean, you try. You look on YouTube where he said it multiple times that he will stop fracking. That would make us very, very. We would have to depend on other countries. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, all these places that have oil. We are energy independent now. First time in world's history that we are energy. We don't need anybody else's oil. We actually sell oil to other places. And so I don't understand how that getting rid of that kind of stuff constitutes seven. You know, Joe Biden says 707 million new jobs created windmill, all these green new jobs and stuff. Who's paying that? Who's going to pay that? Well, my tax money, your tax money, everyone's tax money is going to go pay that. And it's still 7 million jobs. The only way he can create 7 million jobs is with the government. That's the only way that he can create all these jobs. I mean, there's not 7 million jobs in the, in the natural wind industry. That, that's going to pop up. It's all going to be government jobs. So I, you know, he's going to tax us into oblivion. And as opposed to the, the spending that, that Trump's doing, you know, he didn't see the, he didn't see the, the virus coming either. You know, there's, you know, what, 3, 4. $4 trillion have been spent on this virus with relief packages and stuff like that. No one saw that coming. Nobody saw that coming. So, you know, yeah, spending has gone up and it had to go up because there's people like me that were shut down for two months. I mean, in March and April, I was shut down for two months. I own a hair salon. We could not go to work in the state of Utah for two months. I had, I still had to pay my rent. I still had to pay my employees to keep them from leaving. I still had to pay all my utilities. I still had to pay everything. So, you know, these, these packages that were passed by the legislature and Trump signed, no one saw that coming. I mean, that's, you know, $4 trillion. I mean, what are you going to do? I mean, we had to have money to stay afloat, so. Business owner. I mean, I know there's a few small. Bob. I'm, I'm sad that Bob dropped off because he's a small business owner.

John Dehlin [02:44:19] No, no, no, Bob's. Bob's here. Bob's here. We're going to Bob next. We're going to Bob next.

Guest [02:44:24] I'm out. I've talked too much.

John Dehlin [02:44:25] No, no, you're great. People are loving all the comments. And rich people are saying specifically they appreciate yours, Steph. They're loving yours, Wendell. They're asking for more you, Tyler. They're loving you, Daniel. You're awesome. Like, I'm loving All this panel, just in terms of you guys willing to just share your heart, be authentic, share your experiences, I'm really grateful for all of you. And Bob, I'm coming right to you. And the only thing I just wanted to say is I want to agree with you on one thing, Rich. I mean, I know it's the Congress that passes the, you know, the legislation, but the President has to sign it. And I took advantage of the PPP money and some of those loans. And that's like one of the first times the government made what felt like to me a tangible impact on my life in a long, long, long time.

Guest [02:45:15] I mean, with, with, with the spending going up, like I said, no one saw it coming.

John Dehlin [02:45:20] Oh, yeah, yeah, that's a good point about it.

Guest [02:45:22] I mean, you can't blame Trump for the spending because people like me, people like you, people like Bob, I mean, everyone in this room had to have some kind of when we were sitting at home for two months.

John Dehlin [02:45:34] I mean, and you can argue that that action helped keep us from derailing economically. And of course, it took a Democrat controlled House and a Republican controlled Senate and Trump to make that deal happen. And Trump deserves some of that credit. Right. Gets you in. What are you most concerned about with the Trump with a Biden Harris presidency?

Bob [02:45:58] So, two quick points based on kind of the last few minutes someone mentioned Tulsi Gabbard. I share that sentiment. I think there's a good chance I would vote for her over Trump, even though I probably disagree with her on a few things. Another quick one is we've been talking about climate change and I think it's interesting tying it back to my Mormon upbringing. Climate change is not something you have to worry about as a Mormon because the earth is given to you for us to utilize. And there's going to be the second coming in the millennium where it's going to be perfected anyway. So I never had to worry about that. And so that's been something, I'll admit that I'm not. That's one of the things I'm going to have to go in and figure out. I think there's gray areas in all of these things and I don't know a balance with climate change and the economy and all that. So it's not part of a lot of what I'm doing this election. Hopefully more next one. Real quick. On a Biden Harris administration, I'm concerned when I see big tech line up on the same side as the mainstream media and they're all aligned there with the in my perception, with the Democratic Party, all of that power and money on one side, if the Democratic Party were to take the presidency in both houses of the Congress, and with the present threat of packing the Supreme Court, I'm very concerned that one party is going to have all the money behind it and we'll lose a lot of the checks and balances that I think are good for our country. So that's kind of my biggest concern.

John Dehlin [02:47:36] That's fantastic. All right, did I, did I get everyone in to give their, their thoughts about. I got everyone in. Right.

Guest 4 [02:47:44] Could I, could I say one more thing? I keep forgetting, I keep forgetting because I started to say it during my intro and then I stopped saying it. So I keep thinking I already said it. But one of the biggest things for me, and I think a lot of people here have expressed similar, similar things, is that I think we both acknowledged that, or I think that we all have acknowledged that. We also don't think that Trump is perfect, that we don't think Biden is perfect, that we think that there's some corruption and some extremism on both sides. And my whole thing is I, I've seen Trump scrutinized at every turn and investigated, and I feel like I didn't vote for him in 2016. And I felt like the checks and balances really did a lot to protect us from things going too far one way or the other. And, and I haven't seen Biden held to the same accountability. And in my opinion, if I have to pick between two people that might be corrupt or two people that might

Guest 5 [02:48:37] be,

Guest 4 [02:48:40] have some extreme followings behind them, I, I want to pick the one that's going to have more oversight and more investigations. And the fact that they, that they won't acknowledge a lot of the, the issues with, with Biden is, is troublesome to me, I think. And I would rather have the person that's going to be watched closer because I don't, I generally don't trust politicians a whole lot either way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:04] All right, that's a good point, Daniel. We, the check and balance between the branches of Congress and between the government and the, and the media is a really important balance. And I agree with you all that we all want a balanced, effective, honest, professional media in our country. I agree with all of you on that. That's super important. All right, well, I think it's time to wrap up. I want you all to know, I am, just so you know, there are a lot, there are a lot of critics out there that are like, we're not informed or we're not articulate or I just want to say, all those people boo to you. The whole purpose of this was to show that we can have civil discourse, to ask people about their hearts and minds and what they think and feel and why they think and feel that way. And I just, you know, I hope you guys feel okay about how I treated you. I tried to be fair, but also, you know, ask tougher questions. And I just adore all of you for your willingness to join us today to come on Mormon stories and to do what's hard. I mean, one of the things that I'm embarrassed to find out, you know, in terms of predictions, let's move to that. We'll do a prediction as the last thing we do. You know, I have friends that are afraid to admit their Trump supporters, and I don't think that in America, you know, I'm sad if people are afraid of threats or intimidation or of coercion or of consequences if they just admit their willingness to support one of the mainstream candidates. That just shows me that something's wrong. There shouldn't be that fear. And, and one of the things that's making the polls unpredictable is that so many of the Trump voters are even afraid to admit to pollsters that they're supporting Trump. So I don't like that. I want people to be respected and loved. And I think you guys all did a great job of doing your best to communicate your thoughts and feelings and to share with us what's, what's behind your vote. So I just want to thank you and applaud you. What I want to do is I want to end and just go around the horn, and I just want to hear if you have a quick final comment you want to make, and then I want to hear your prediction of who's going to win Tuesday or however later it is that we find out who the winner was. So I'm just going to go around the horn and say a final thought, and then who's going to win? And I'm going to start with you, Richard. Final thought and who's going to win? What's your prediction?

Election Predictions and Final Thoughts

Guest [02:51:50] Well, I have my Trump flag hanging outside my house, and, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm all in for President Trump. And I think, I think you're right, John. I think there's a lot of, A lot of people that kind of keep it to themselves. I think a lot of us conservatives keep it to themselves. And they vote. You know, they vote. They're going to vote for Trump. And, you know, you see all the violence, you know, not necessarily here, but in other cities that, you know, there's a Trump supporter, you know, they go beat him up or whatever. And I think that's a real thing. So I think, I think it's gonna be a landslide. I think, I think Trump, I. It's even possible that he wins the popular vote, too, but I think. I think he'll have 270 votes, I mean, 270 electoral college votes before it's all said and done.

Listener Comments and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [02:52:35] All right, so riches for Trump. I'm going to call out one of my listeners. Mixed Man 1976 says, yeah, it's not fear, it's embarrassment for supporting racism and conspiracy theories. I just want to call you out. Mixed man 1976. No offense intended, but I don't think you listen to a word that was said today. I think it's offensive to just denounce and deride all Trump supporters as, like, racist conspiracy theory people. I think that's part of the problem. You're basically saying, I mean, I like the definition of racism, which is that anyone who participates and benefits from a system that disadvantages people because of race. And in that sense, I'm okay with saying all of us are racists or, you know, sexist or whatever, because we're all participating in systems that are fraught. But I just do not like, and I Reject mixed man 1976, your statement that people are afraid to talk about their support of Trump because they're racist conspiracy theory people. And I'm embarrassed that you are saying such things on my show. I think that's simplistic, and I think the purpose of today's program was to reject that type of thinking, because I think it is not helpful, and I think it frankly contributes to a lot and fuels a lot of the frustration and sadness on the left. And I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna. I have to speak up to that. Steph, what's your prediction? And any final word you want to. You want to say.

Guest 6 [02:54:07] To close

Guest 5 [02:54:11] my prediction with Trump, I did not think he was going to win in 2016. So I. I feel like there's more support now than 2016, even though the polls don't show it. So I have to go with Trump. But my last. You know, what I want to say is, thanks for having us on here and thanks for being fair. I knew from listening to a lot of your Mormon Stories podcast that you would be great, and I would have never come on here if I thought it was something where you were just going to put us out here where everyone can bash on us and rip on us and tell us how dumb we are and how racist and all this stuff. So, so I appreciate being able to talk in this format and it was great and I learned a lot of things and had a good time, so thanks.

John Dehlin [02:54:57] And Stephanie, get well with your Covid, right?

Guest 5 [02:55:02] Yeah.

Guest [02:55:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:04] All right, thanks, Steph. It's been so great to have you as a woman, as a member of the LGBT community. I can't think if this was all white males, I would just be so bummed out. But I tried, I really tried, so. All right, Tyler, your turn. Tyler, tell us your prediction and any final words.

Guest 3 [02:55:25] Yeah, so I echo Seth's sentiments there. You know, I haven't been noticing a few of the comments on the chats talking about, you know, I'm not qualified to speak because I'm a white male and things like that. And I just again, think, I think identity politics and discouraging people, you know, kind of disregarding Martin Luther King's of judging us by our character and, and the content of our hearts and not by our skin color. I, I just think that the, the left is wrong on these issues. They're, they're incorrect to, you know, to put us down, you know, simply because those things, rather than debating us on, on argument and, and substance, it's based on our skin color. And I think that goes again with Joe Biden. He came out from the very beginning saying that he was going to select his vice president based upon her gender and skin color. And I think it just limits what qualifications are for actual good politics. The other last thought I had is if we look at the states that are experiencing the worst problems, I mean, look at the mass exodus out of California and New York and these very left liberal states people are fleeing. It's not a sustainable policy. The left policies are just not sustainable and they don't provide results and people will be fleeing them. And so I'm hoping, you know, we, we, we have Trump as, as the, the nominee again or as the vote. I'm not sure if that's going to be the case. I'm less confident in, in it. I, I, I still think he will win the electoral vote and lose the popular vote, but it will be plus one. I don't think it'll be a landslide.

John Dehlin [02:57:29] Comment from one of our listeners, Ruben writes. Tyler, while I don't agree with your views, I think you are correct about the obs session with wokeness on the left. So one of our listeners or viewers agrees with you. Reena writes, John, please call him out on generalizing the left. And I guess Reena's just trying to remind us that we can't talk about any group monolithically, that they're, you know, that. That not everyone on the left agrees with anything necessarily, and that we should just avoid those kind of more broad generalizations.

Guest 3 [02:57:59] Yeah, I apologize for doing that. But I think that, you know, that that still is the large direction that that group is heading. And you can see, you know, even with. With traditionally left, you know, Bill Maher and, you know, I've mentioned Sam Harris and these people that they're departing from the left because, you know, the left is getting so radical on some of these issues.

John Dehlin [02:58:24] I hadn't heard that about Bill Maher. That's interesting. All right, let's see. Wendell, I hope your audio. Talk loudly if you can. Wendell, what's your prediction and any final thoughts really quickly?

Guest 6 [02:58:37] Well, I think my biggest prediction is that I think Trump can win. I think there's a lot of people that are not being counted in the polls. I also believe there's a lot of people who didn't vote in the last election that are going to come out and vote in this election. I think a lot of people have been nervous to voice their opinion. I'm not embarrassed to support Trump. I'm not at all. I drive across the country quite a bit, and I can tell you that I see a lot of Trump signs, I see a lot of Trump banners hanging from overpasses, and I see not a lot of Biden material. So I think there is a groundswell of support out there. How it shows out at the election will be the final poll that we actually have and the only poll that really matters. So I think the best thing I can say right now is to go vote, if you haven't already.

John Dehlin [02:59:36] So go vote. Wendell's been great to have you. I'm sorry you had audio technical difficulties. I wish we had been able to have you contribute a bit more, but it's been great to have you. What you could contribute.

Guest 6 [02:59:47] Well, I had fun.

John Dehlin [02:59:50] Yeah. Thank you. Really quick shout out to Daniel. Daniel's thanking us. I know we're not done with summaries, but Daniel's thanking us and he made a little donation there. YouTube does have a way for you to make donations. So if any of you are grateful, if you like this type of programming and you want to support it. I want to thank Daniel for his. His support and Invite any of you on YouTube if you want to click that little dollar sign in the, in the menu and make it, make a donation if you want to support this programming. Let's see. Bob, do you want to give your, your predictions and any final comments there?

Bob [03:00:29] Yeah, predictions, tough. I'm not sure anybody really knows what's going to happen. I, I think it's going to be close. I tend to agree that there's a

Guest 4 [03:00:38] lot of

Bob [03:00:42] Trump support out there that is not being reflected in the media. So I think, you know, I'm optimistic, I suppose, for a Trump win, but it's going to be close. I'd love to have a landslide either way because I think a close win is just, it's not gonna be pretty, but I do think it's a close Trump win. Final comment. Thank you so much for, for doing this. I think all of us should be trying to go out of our way to talk to people that on the other side of the aisle, we, I want, you know, again, I think I said this, but get out of the echo chambers. We're being driven into echo chambers by the algorithms that want to feed us the content that we already agree with. Get out of that. Talk to people. I, I suspect, I'm hopeful, but I suspect that, that this Trump panel and the individuals on the Biden panel, we could probably actually go out, enjoy a beverage of our choice, have a good time, and politics might even come up. And I think, you know, talking to people face to face and understanding where they're coming from is important, even not to change your mind, not to, not to, you know, persuade people, but just to understand their humanity. And I think we need more and more of this as we try to fight.

John Dehlin [03:01:51] Love it. And that. If any of you have not seen the movie, the Social Delay Dilemma, I think it's a great movie and it illustrates how these algorithms really are impacting our country in, in really negative ways. And that is a criticism I share with, you know, big Media or whatever it's being called with Twitter, with Facebook, with Instagram. I, I am concerned about the way those pieces of software that I take advantage of on a daily basis are not benefiting to the health of our country in terms of healthy political discourse and just social, civil discourse. So. And thanks, Bob, for those kind words. Daniel, I think, I think you're last. Is that right? Last but not least.

Guest 4 [03:02:37] Yeah, I think so.

Closing Thanks and Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [03:02:39] Prediction and final comment.

Guest 4 [03:02:42] I'm, I'm not even going to make a prediction because I don't think anybody knows. I mean, you know, we've all made our stance on, on what we think. But as for my final comments, one thing that I think everybody listening, I hope can, can relate to a little bit is I know, me personally at least, living up here in Seattle, felt significantly more anxiety and fear for my personal relationships, my, my friendships and all that kinds of stuff to come out as a Trump supporter than I did to come out that I was leaving the church. I mean, the, the social stigma is, is, is that thick in some places. And the, I think everybody watching Mormon stories understands what it's like to go through a process where you find your own identity for the first time, where you realize, you know, for me, it was 30 years into my life that my identity in a lot of ways had been hijacked and that I was finding my identity for the first time. And that when we form that identity and we decide what our views are, that those are very precious tusks. That's something that we had stolen from the first 30 years of our life. And so just keep that in mind when you're commenting about our beliefs, I think, and that if you are of the camp that believes that all Trump supporters are racist or all Trump supporters hate members of the LGBT community, I'd encourage you to go look at a lot of the public figures that are black or that are members of the queer community that, that are supporting him. And there's many that have great points. You know, I watch people of color like John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes, Thomas Sowell, you know, there's some, some very intelligent people out there. And the, the thought, like you said, that it's all one way or the other is just, just not true. Along those lines, I just wanted to, again, like so many other people, express my thanks to you, John, because thanks to you and thanks to Mormon stories and all that you do, I, I was able to find my identity and you've helped my life and my kids lives so much. And so I wanted to thank you for that.

John Dehlin [03:05:05] Beautiful. What a great final comment. Thank you so much, Daniel. And thanks to all of you. This is just totally spontaneous. This would make me really feel good. This is not a gotcha. I hope. This is just a beautiful opportunity for love. Can all of you unmute your mics? And all of you, I'm going to just ask you a question. For all of you Trump voting people who are willing to denounce racism, would you please speak up right now?

Guest 4 [03:05:33] Can we use profanity?

John Dehlin [03:05:37] All of you say I, if you want to. If you publicly Denounce racism or white supremacy. As a Trump supporter, say aye.

Guest 4 [03:05:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:05:49] If you publicly denounce homophobia or, you know, any type of hate speech towards the LGBT community, say I.

Guest 4 [03:05:58] Absolutely. Okay.

Guest 3 [03:06:01] If you.

John Dehlin [03:06:01] If you support women, and if you support. If you oppose the harassment or abuse of women or support the treatment of women in respectful ways and you feel like women should be treated equally in society, please say aye.

Guest 4 [03:06:17] Hi.

Guest 6 [03:06:18] Hi.

John Dehlin [03:06:19] All right. That makes me really happy. Thanks for being willing to play that little game at the end. I love you guys. I appreciate it. I hope I can have a root beer or a tea with you or something sometime soon. I really appreciate you coming on. And please stay in touch and know that I owe you guys all one for doing something so courageous, which is it shouldn't have to be courageous to support your political candidate, but it is in 2020, it's an act of courage to publicly say that you support Trump or Biden in some cases. So thanks for your courage. Thanks for speaking out. Please stay in touch. And I owe you guys something for your willingness today. You guys were awesome. Thank you so much. All right, and thanks to all your listeners who joined in. Thanks to everyone who commented. Thanks to everyone who shared on social media. Thanks to all the donors that make Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation possible. If you valued this programming, if you liked what we did, please comment@mormonstories.org, please comment here on social media. Please subscribe on Facebook or on YouTube. Click the bell to be notified of new episodes. And if you don't donate, less than one out of a thousand people that listen or watch donate. And every year we ask, are we going to be able to exist? So if you are appreciate programming like this, if you support Mormon Stories, if you benefit from it, please go now to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll be able to do programming like this in continuity. Appreciate everyone, appreciate your support. Please stay in touch and don't go away. In literally 19 minutes, we're going to do the exact same thing, but this time with those who support Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. So please stay tuned and we'll see again just in a few minutes for the next part of this episode. Thanks, everybody. Take care and see you guys again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Please make sure and vote however you vote. If you can vote, please vote. We need your voices and please have respectful discourse. Please don't make broad, sweeping generalizations about liberals, conservatives, Republicans, Democrats, Trump supporters, Biden supporters, supporters, Mormons, ex Mormons. Let's try and have better discourse. And I'll do my part as well. Thanks, everybody, and take care. See you again soon on Mormon stories podcast. I'm Dr. John Delinquent.

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