Welcome and Introducing Kirsten and David

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 802

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John de Lind. It is September 29, 2017. It is my daughter Anna's birthday. Happy birthday, Anna. She's not listening, but I want to wish her happy birthday anyway.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] And it's a very early morning interview. I don't know that we've ever done an interview this early. It's 7:57am and I'm very excited for today's interview. We're going to be interviewing Kirsten and David Udi or Udi. They can tell us how they're going to pronounce it, but basically this interview covers at least two important series that we're doing on Mormon Stories Podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] The first is we're kicking off a new series on mixed faith marriages. We had this wonderful mixed faith marriage retreat in Salt Lake City in August with Julie Diaze Hanks and myself. We had 21 couples there. It was a really powerful experience. And coming out of that was just this clear need to talk more about how couples navigate successfully a mixed faith marriage. So today is going to be part one of that series.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] David at some point lost his Mormon faith. Kirsten is still a believer, and so we're just very excited that they'd be willing to come on and talk about how they navigate their marriage. We're also going to Bethis is also part three of our series on overcoming addiction. We've done two wonderful interviews so far, Mormon stories on opiate addiction.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] And I highly recommend those interviews because there is an epidemic of opiate addiction and just substance abuse within Utah and Mormonism, just like there is in the broader US and possibly world culture. So it's important to talk about it. In this case, we're going to be talking about overcoming alcohol addiction and David is going to particularly tell us a bit about his journey, how he became an alcoholic and then how he and Kirsten fought and struggled together to overcome it. We're going to try and do this interview in less than two hours. We're really excited. For everyone who is joining us live on Facebook live, we have 25 people so far and we want to encourage our listeners to post comments and questions because it's always more fun when it's interactive.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] So really quickly before we begin, I'll just do some really quick announcements. Please follow us on Instagram and Twitter ormistories. Please like our Facebook page @MormonStories podcast on Facebook, Please give us a positive review on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page. We're at 4.9 out of 5 and we need more reviews, so that's that doesn't lower. And then finally, please log into itunes and give us a positive review on itunes. These are the sorts of things where if you can't support us financially, they still make a big difference, always. We want to thank our donors who make all this possible. If you go to mormonstories.org in the top right, there's a little donation button and less than 1% of our listeners are donors and we would really love to get that percentage up because it takes financial support to make the open stories possible.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] So please support us if you can very quickly. We have a few events coming up. October 27th, we're doing a workshop on rebuilding a life during and after a faith crisis that's going to be in Utah county again October 27th, and it's a full day.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] Please go to MormonStories.org events if you want to be a part of that all day workshop. We're also doing a half day workshop on November 17th in UT on healthy relationships. So that's going to include healthy marriages, communicating with believing family and friends, raising healthy children during and after a Mormon faith crisis. And then of course, we're coming to San Francisco November 9th and 10th.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] And next year we are doing a cruise to the Bahamas October 24th through 28th. And of course, our hearts go out to all the people in the Caribbean who have been affected by the recent hurricanes. Hopefully we can bring some commerce to their islands to help them recuperate. And we're accepting nominations. We're about to release our calendar for events for 2018. But if you want us to come to your area in 2018, please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com all right, those are our announcements. And now we are so thrilled to welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast. Kirsten and David, is it Udi or Udi? How do I pronounce that?

David Udy [00:05:10] It's Udi.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Udi. Okay. All right, well, Kirsten and David, thank you so much for joining us today.

David Udy [00:05:17] Welcome.

Kirsten Udy [00:05:18] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] It's a real honor. So I think it would be best to begin kind of having each of you tell a little bit about your story. Kirsten, what if we had you start? How would that work? Okay, tell us just a bit about your Mormon background.

Kirsten's Background and Faith Journey

Kirsten Udy [00:05:34] So I'm the oldest of four children. I have one brother and two sisters and was raised in a very active, loving home. And I'm a returned missionary. I served in the Lisbon, Portugal mission in the years of 1991 to 1992.

Kirsten Udy [00:05:56] And I had a Great experience there. I loved sharing the gospel and was able to see a lot of the country. I was on the Azores and the Madeira Islands also. For me, that was a huge stepping stone in my life. I always struggled academically in school, and so to be able to go on my mission and be given the gift of tongues, really learned a lot spiritually and just put it in my pocket as I am smart and I can do great things with the Lord's help. I'm a registered nurse, and I enjoy my profession. I'm actually back in school right now, working on my bachelor's degree.

Kirsten Udy [00:06:44] And so, like I said, my mission was a huge stepping stone in my life just to prove to me that I was capable of great things. As far as my family goes, I do have a sister that is a meth addict. She's been an addict for 26 years.

Kirsten Udy [00:07:05] I've been touched with addiction very personally, pretty much my whole entire life. And it's been an interesting journey and. And a hard one. I, for a long time, was the only active child in my family. My sister is now active, my youngest sister, and has been sealed in the temple to her family.

Kirsten Udy [00:07:32] And so that is an awesome thing for me to. To have her be a part of the church. And my parents are still both active. They are divorced. They got divorced after 30 years. My dad is married to another woman now, and my mom has remained single.

Kirsten Udy [00:07:55] And I grew up in a small town. I'm from Brigham City, Utah. That was a great place to grow up. And I was sheltered from a lot of worldly things by living in a small town. I had the opportunity to grow up with my grandparents, both of them just down the street. I worked with my grandmother when I was 16, and so family relations have always been very close and important in my life and full of love. What else can I say?

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Tell us what the church has meant to you through it all. What's sort of been the rock of your testimony or your faith?

Kirsten Udy [00:08:47] So for me, since we're talking about my marriage today, and. Going into my marriage, it was an eternal decision. When I married Dave, I knew it was going to be for eternity, through the hard, the good, the bad, the ugly. And I think, you know, what we've been through, especially with alcoholism, that's been my anchor, that I really believe that my family is eternal and that I was not gonna give up on it in any way. The word of wisdom for me, too, if we're talking religion is a core value for me. It's deep inside of me, and I'VE abided by that my whole entire life. I'm 45 years old, and I haven't even ever had a drink of coffee. That's how, I guess fervent and passionate I've been about that. And, you know, I just, from a young age, wanted that to be a part of my life. And

David Udy [00:10:12] so

Kirsten Udy [00:10:14] without my religion and my beliefs, I really don't know if our family would still be together.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] I love it. What would you say your core beliefs are rooted in? Is it a spiritual witness? Is it. Was it a moment in time where you received a witness? Was it just something that built. What do you pin your. Your conviction or your faith to?

Kirsten Udy [00:10:41] So, like I said before, I was born into the gospel, and so I think it was building stone upon stone. And then through life experiences, you know, I've had to really analyze and look at the gospel principles and how they apply in my life, and do they really make sense to me? I would say through my adulthood that the life experiences that I've had with my immediate family have giving me spiritual experiences where I truly feel that that is my connection to God and a higher power. And I believe that Jesus Christ is our elder brother. I think he's a real person. I think his atonement is real and that it applies to us in so many different ways, not just for being forgiven of our sins, but for our heartache, our pains, our joys, everything that we experience in life.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Beautiful. Well, thanks again, Kirsten. Is it scary to come on Mormon Stories as a believer?

Kirsten Udy [00:11:56] Yes, I'll tell the truth. It is a little scary, but it is good.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] All right, well, we really appreciate. We appreciate your willing to do this. We appreciate your support of Dave. We appreciate your commitment to your marriage, because that's one of the main reasons we do. What we do on Mormon Stories is we. We feel like religion should never split up a family. And so I know many believing people who end their marriage when their spouse stops believing. And I'm just really grateful that you've stuck it out and you've cared about your marriage more than anything else, because that is. I think that's got to be what the gospel is about, right? Is not giving up on family. If the gospel means anything, it's got to mean that. So thank you.

Kirsten Udy [00:12:51] Thank you.

David's Background and Early Church Experiences

John Dehlin [00:12:53] All right, Dave, welcome to Mormon Stories. You've been a longtime listener and friend of ours. So, Dave, why don't you go ahead and give us a little bit of your background. It may have been a little bit different than Kirsten's, but let's yeah, it

David Udy [00:13:07] was a little different. We kind of grew up in the same area. I grew up through elementary school and junior high in the Tremont area, went to high school in Brigham City. So we kind of saw each other around in high school, but I was with a different crowd. So we're kind of two. You'd never in a million years expect to get together, but here we are.

David Udy [00:13:32] But. So, yeah, my upbringing, I was raised in the. In the LDS faith. My mom has always been very active in believing in the church, still is. And we were. Me and all my siblings were dragged kicking and screaming or whatever into church every Sunday. We were always there.

David Udy [00:13:56] And. But from my childhood, there was more abuse going on. My mom was married total of five times. She remarried my dad once. We're gonna. I'm gonna kind of skim over a lot of what went on, but I'll just say there was just a lot of abuse. There was a lot of physical abuse, there was sexual abuse. And I'm not gonna go into any detail on that.

David Udy [00:14:25] Especially just for privacy of those that it happened to, though. I just have to say that the people that. That happened to deserve. Anybody that may listen to this, please just don't even speculate. And those people deserve all the anonymity and privacy about that in the world.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Sure,

David Udy [00:14:47] but. And that didn't happen to me, but the knowledge of that affects me greatly still. And we'll probably get into some of that. And, you know, some of the stepdads were just to kind of give a sense of some of the abuse. Some of the stepdads, especially one. John, his name was John, not you.

David Udy [00:15:11] But he was particularly abusive. He was kind of a. He was an engineer. And we were really excited when my mom decided to get married to him because he's kind of this educated person. But he turned. He was kind of also a Harley biker and really liked his cars. And, you know, we. He. I don't know if he was a drug dealer, but he was. He did a lot of drugs. I know that.

David Udy [00:15:34] And he. Yeah, he wouldn't let us upstairs in this house. He would only let the kids be downstairs. Kind of rigged up a shower downstairs for us to take showers in and would leave cereal and milk on the steps before going to work. So we have breakfast. And I was kind of starting my teenage years, so I got kind of. I was getting. I was really out of control. I'm pretty rebellious and pushing back against a guy that I had no business pushing back against. And so one day, you know, we Took off in his. Me and a friend took off in his El Camino.

David Udy [00:16:06] He worshiped his cars. I went joyriding all day in his El Camino and digging into his Playboys and all that stuff and came back and he found out and he beat me pretty good. I was bent over on my hands and knees and kicked me across my ribs. So it kind of gives you a sense. And there was one day, one night when we could hear him just beating, beating the crap out of my mom upstairs. I could hear her screaming, hear the blows. And I was, I had a 22 rifle downstairs and I was, I was sitting at the bottom of the stairs and if he came out of that door, I was, in my mind I was ready to shoot him.

David Udy [00:16:46] I don't know if I would have. I'm glad he never came out. But I have to express a little bit just to get, give you a sense, the audience, a sense of what was really going on. And I, and for some reason in my childhood mind I never, until I was adult, I never understood that I was growing up in abuse. It never dawned on me. It's kind of weird how that works, but I understand that pretty clearly now.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] I'm so sorry. What a very incredibly difficult childhood and adolescence.

David Udy [00:17:19] Thanks, I appreciate that. And so yeah, now I have to try to understand, understand that, understand how it affects me so that I don't react in destructive ways, which I have sometimes. So now I want to talk about a little bit about the church, my relationship with the church, going through all this.

David Udy [00:17:44] So one experience was kind of a highlight for me is about the age was at the age of 12 when I was going to be ordained a deacon. They lost my baptismal records and so, so I needed to be re baptized before I could be ordinated deacon. And, and I just remember what. And I didn't come up with this out of my own head, but I just remember that I was really going to be perfect. Like right, I'm re baptized and I'm gonna be all clean. And I was. And I had this really, this thing built up in my mind about trying to be perfect and I, and I didn't come out with that.

David Udy [00:18:17] That was something that I was kind of echoing sentiment around me as a 12 year old. But yeah, I really remember just trying to be perfect for quite a while and then really it didn't take that long to find out how futile that was. But this is all about the time when adolescence kinds of comes along. My body's starting to do new things and that turned in that sense of trying to be perfect turned into a lot of shame.

David Udy [00:18:51] And it sort of really had a backfire for me. And. I don't know, not just, I guess the shame that I'm talking about, it had a lot to do with also just my environment. So I had a lot of.

David Udy [00:19:11] With the abuse that was going on and a lot of the instability. My inner core didn't feel right about things, or I didn't feel good about myself. I felt like I just started to feel like I'm not a good person. I started to identify, you know, I didn't recognize it this way at the time, but I started to identify just as an unworthy, not good person.

David Udy [00:19:34] And, you know, by the time I'm. I'm 13, I'm. And this. There's a lot of. There's a lot of stuff going on in the background here that I'm kind of skipping over. But by the time I'm 13, that's when I'm kind of starting to smoke. By the time I'm 14, 15, I'm smoking a pack a day.

David Udy [00:19:55] There was some. I smoked marijuana here and there. And yeah, I did a little lsd, but that kind of came later on. I was more like 18 when I did a little of that. It was mostly just like marijuana use and a little bit of alcohol, but I didn't love alcohol.

David Udy [00:20:11] I liked marijuana more. And in my mind, I was a drug addict, although looking back on it, I was clearly not addicted. I was addicted to cigarettes for sure, but I wasn't addicted to any drugs. But there was kind of a period with me and my friends where we were kind of like a druggie crowd that was kind of, you know, the teens kind of look at this crowd and maybe the druggie crowd. We were kind of part of that crowd in Brigham City. They hung out in the north parking lot. That was kind of where that group hung out. And I was always there, slept in school.

David Udy [00:20:42] But I remember there was a period of time when we started. Me and my friends started going to some, like, NA meetings or AA meetings and that kind of thing. And it was. We weren't like, trying to wanting to quit marijuana. It was more like we just liked that for some reason, we. Somebody got us going there. We liked to talk and be able to express ourselves. And we like to sit around and have coffee. But I remember, like, going to those meetings and when I introduced myself, I introduced myself as an addict, so I really clearly identified myself as addicted.

David Udy [00:21:12] We did emotions. There was emotional issues, for sure, but yeah, no physical addiction to anything other than cigarettes. So I just wanted to kind of COVID that.

John Dehlin [00:21:22] So was that, that was in your adolescence and was this while you were attending church?

David Udy [00:21:30] See, my mom, I'm trying to think about when my mom stopped being able to get me to church anymore. I don't know why I can't remember when I stopped. I probably stopped going to church around the age of 15 or 16 and there was a couple of periods of time where she sent us off to live. Her and my dad were divorced and he was living in Colorado. So there's a period where we were out of control and she sent us to live there. And so then obviously we weren't going to church when we were him. So I think it was about probably the age of 16, I would say that I wasn't going to church anymore. She just couldn't make me anymore.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] And you feel like in some ways your perfectionistic thinking as a Mormon backfired in the sense that you felt so much shame and guilt that maybe the substances were to self medicate the guilt and shame. Is that how you put it together as you look back?

David Udy [00:22:26] I wouldn't say that I felt like I wasn't feeling a lot of shame or guilt. I wasn't feeling that as any kind of emotion. It was more like the. There was in my mind the. I didn't, I didn't believe. I didn't understand like the one true church thing. That was not even in my vocabulary then. I didn't understand it that way. It was just, I was brought up in the church, it was just a church. And there was this kind of bar that the church formed. So I thought of a person that's kind of an active. Like other teams my age that were going to church, I just, they had this sort of way about them and that was not me.

David Udy [00:23:09] So it wasn't like I was ashamed. I was at least emotionally feeling a lot of shame. It was just that I identified as somebody who was not that and could not be that. Like I could, I could. So it felt like there was sort of this very high, unattainable bar that I, that was just not me and I couldn't be me. And so I think that that core identification I had just. It held me in a kind of a dark place.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] So what ended up reactivating you to Mormonism that led to you going on a mission?

David Udy [00:23:45] Yeah, that's a, that's a good, that's important. So. So yeah, I'm about the age of. I guess I was advised no I was about 19, 19 or 20. Well, I don't remember being able to legally buy cigarettes. That's why I.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] It's okay. What happened?

David Udy [00:24:02] The age doesn't matter. But I. But yeah, yeah. Kind of a really young adult. And I. I'm living. Living by myself in a. You know, running out of a house. I'm just by myself, kind of in a. Emotionally. In a pretty dark place.

David Udy [00:24:17] You know, I have a smoke. Smoking habit. Pack a day. I don't really like that. And I'm pretty unhealthy. Smoking marijuana, just kind of doing my thing and working. I was working, but it was. But I was feeling pretty low all the time.

David Udy [00:24:32] And I was just kind of there. And a Jehovah's Witness and his son came and proselyted to my door and they shared their message. It was pretty basic. It was just their Bible message. They didn't go into any in deep regarding Job's Witnesses. It was something that. A message that a Mormon or any other Christian religion would resonate with. And I just gave him the message. And then after he left, I went in my room and I. And I had a prayer and I had a really profound spiritual experience. And you know, the kind of experience where it just felt inside like the whole room was lit up.

Kirsten Udy [00:25:09] That kind of thing.

David Udy [00:25:10] Just pretty profound. Powerful. And I wouldn't say there was any, like, message communicated. It was just a feeling, Powerful feeling of inspiration. And. But yeah, right after that, I took my. I just had a brand new carton of cigarettes. I threw those in the dumpster, I pushed a bag of marijuana, and I drove right over to my mom's house and I told her I was gonna get ready and go on LDS mission.

David Udy [00:25:37] And, you know, and I did. I did do that. And so I. So the next kind of six months or so was in preparation for that mission. And it was. That was kind of a experience for me. I.

David Udy [00:25:54] Yeah, I had a lot of. I'll just say I had a lot of kind of. I had a lot. Started having a lot of dreams and kind of apocalyptic dreams that felt really very real to me. So there was just for some reason, a lot of like, you know, like dreams like seeing Salt Lake City wiped out with tornadoes, that kind of. That kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] Sure.

David Udy [00:26:13] And. And so that was kind of. That was kind of just the whole. The whole time during my preparation, I was feeling that. And. And I remember also at some point, I think they had the missionaries come and visit with me and give me the whole thing of discussions and just going to church every Sunday and it didn't take long. And I remember kind of clicking, oh, this is the one true church. I remember that. I didn't understand that. And then it's like, here a little while into this, this is the one true church. I remember, like, I need to go back and talk to Sonny, who was the Jehovah's Witness that, you know, kind of come to me.

David Udy [00:26:47] I went and visited with him to try to convert him to Mormonism. You know, I don't think, I don't think he loved. He never seemed too happy with the idea that I'm going on a LDS mission. But I remember doing that and I don't know, that was sort of just.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] And so from there you decided to go on a mission.

David Udy [00:27:07] Yeah, and I put in my papers just as soon as I could and I had to go visit a general authority because of my past sins. I was kind of, you know, if you do certain things, you have to do that. So I had to go visit Marlon K. Jensen. It's kind of an interesting story because I got told I need to go to the church office building X next time. And I, so I go up there, but I, and I, and I, I just didn't have a clue. And I, and nobody was kind of really guiding me. And I show up there in a jeans and a T shirt and just walk through the church office building up to Marlon Kay Jensen's office.

David Udy [00:27:41] And I remember sitting out in the lobby area just outside of the office and his secretaries kind of kept like glancing over at me weird. And I just didn't understand why. And I, you know, anyway, I went in and had the meeting with him and an interview with him which was really, really good. He's a really good guy and he really understanding and proved my mission. And then he kind of told me, next time you come up here, just make sure you wear a shirt and tie. And kind of told me, when you go, when you go back out, just make sure you kind of go around the, the back way. Because some people aren't as understanding as me.

Getting Married and Early Faith Tensions

John Dehlin [00:28:18] So, Dave, we're going to do something that's going to be really hard because I want to focus on the mixed faith, marriage and the alcoholism. I'm going to ask you just to kind of summarize. I know there's probably 10, 15 years and I just, instead of, for this portion going into the story more. So you serve a mission, you get married in the temple, and I assume that for some period of time you remained sort of a believer to the Extent that you could. I know it's a disservice to your story to not be able to dig in, but we don't have time for that today, given our time constraints. So talk. Let me just ask Kirsten. Kirsten, when you married Dave, was there a sense that the church was a really important part of why you got married?

David Udy [00:29:07] Yeah.

Kirsten Udy [00:29:08] So for me, we met. I had been back from my mission for three weeks, and I was speaking with a high councilman in his ward, and he had actually been back from his mission for three days. So, you know, I had that synergy inside of myself that people can be forgiven. And he's made a change in his life and he wants the gospel to be a part of his life.

Kirsten Udy [00:29:33] And, you know, I didn't see any red flags as we would talk about things. He was very open and honest with me about his past and what he had done. And so the relationship of trust was building in a very positive way.

Kirsten Udy [00:29:52] Our courtship, though, was only five months from the time we met until we got married, which was extremely, looking back, extremely fast, extremely. You know, we truly did not know every component of each other and our thought processes and how we view things, but that's our story.

John Dehlin [00:30:19] And, and what did you sense the marriage was built on in terms of the gospel? What did you, what did you feel? What was the gospel related agreement you were entering into as you married Dave, from your perspective?

Kirsten Udy [00:30:33] That we were gonna make it a part of our lives and we were gonna teach our children the gospel and that we were, you know, gonna go to church every Sunday and that my children would be receiving priesthood blessings if they were sick or going to school. I mean, it was gonna be our life.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Okay, Now, Dave, again, acknowledging that we had to skip over way too much stuff, and we should probably have our own interview with you as you were entering into your marriage with Kirsten. What, what, what, what did the gospel mean to you and what did you feel like you were committing to in terms of the gospel as it related to your marriage?

David Udy [00:31:20] Right. So I was very committed to Kirsten personally. So that was just Kirsten and taking care of. I remember during a courtship, just really a feeling of commitment that I needed to take. I need to take care of my family.

David Udy [00:31:37] So that was a big part of it. But as far as the church goes, it was sort of. That's just what you do. I remember being on my mission that there was talk after talk at our zone conferences.

David Udy [00:31:56] Whenever we had those conferences where the president was speaking, he was always talking about making sure you get married soon after, you know, that's your next thing after you get home. I remember that being. Talked to me a lot. So I just kind of in my core knew I needed to get married and start raising the family and getting ready in the temple. And I was also. There was also a.

David Udy [00:32:15] Just a sense of fear. I don't know if I thought about that openly in my mind. I know it was there. I just was worried about myself. I didn't want to go home and take much time and then fall back into some of my old ways. So in my mind, getting married was a way to prevent that. So Kirsten spoke in my ward, what, three days after I got home. So literally the.

David Udy [00:32:40] I think it was literally the first eligible girl to marry that I saw after I got home. I'm hooking up with her. So that kind of shows kind of the concern I had. It was just there. It's not like my mind thought of doing it that way. It's just the way that it sort of went out.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] And Dave, you didn't get to talk about it, but just summarize where your testimony or faith was at the time you got married. Just in a sentence or two, really.

David Udy [00:33:12] I believed it. But I remember throughout my mission having periods of serious doubt. I've been introduced by a companion, by his hands upon papyrus, that book. I knew about some of the issues and I remember having periods of doubt on my mission, but just shelting them. So I had concerns, but had shelter concerns. But in my front, my front of my head, I could get up in church and bear my testimony and be honest about it. But there were shelf items building.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] So when you married Kirsten, by her perception, you would have been believing and committed to the gospel?

David Udy [00:33:57] Absolutely. And I would have not expressed any doubt or concern whatsoever. And I would have. I was honest with you.

David's Faith Crisis and Shelf Crumbling

John Dehlin [00:34:03] Okay, so how many years was it until, David, your faith really started to crumble? We probably won't be able to get into the buildup of it, but sort of how many years until your faith just started really crumbling?

David Udy [00:34:20] Well, I had an initial, what I call a shelf break in probably that didn't take. It took a few years to think about how many years it was.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] It doesn't matter, just.

David Udy [00:34:31] But I had a preliminary shelf break. But that. My final. Like the one that. Where it just went.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] What was the preliminary one about? Just to. Just so that we understand what it was about.

David Udy [00:34:42] Yeah, it was concerns about the book, Mormon anachronisms, the Book of Abraham problems. I don't think I knew about the DNA issues yet, but just sort of just general anachronisms. I'd read the Book of Mormon a number of times and it just started sounding made up to me for different reasons. And I just was. I was having a hard time believing it, but I actually. And I. And I talked to. Remember talking to Kirsten's dad and he was trying to help me resolve some of those concerns, but. And I ended up just doubling down. So I literally went all in after that experience and said, I'm just gonna really do this.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] And how many, about approximately how many years into your marriage was this first kind of crack in your shelf?

David Udy [00:35:25] Would have been about 2002.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] Okay.

David Udy [00:35:29] I think seven. Seven years would have been the first one. So it would have been about 2001, 2002.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] And the sources would have been what. What were the sources that you came upon relating to Book of Mormon historicity and Book of Abraham and stuff like that?

David Udy [00:35:42] Well, I think I explained where the Book of Abraham concern came from.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Your mission, right?

David Udy [00:35:46] Yeah. And the Book of Mormon concerns. I hadn't read any thing like any anti Mormon source. I just knew about them. I heard about the Mormon enough that I probably. I don't remember even where I knew about the acronyms. I knew about them. I would read the Book of Mormon and some of the like when they would prophesy in there about things that had already occurred. Like there was prophecies about Christopher Columbus. I'm like, why is it like so specific about these things that Joseph would have known about?

John Dehlin [00:36:14] So there were just questions or things you had heard. There wasn't some book or the Tanners or anything like that that you stumbled upon. Okay, so that was. Those were early cracks for four or five years in when did things really start cracking and how so in.

David Udy [00:36:30] So it would have been 2004. We lived in. We moved to Las Vegas. And in Las Vegas our son was diagnosed with Langerhans cell histiocytosis, which is really very, very serious. Kind of a disease that requires chemotherapy and life threatening. We were living in the hospital for a while, doing shifts, me and my wife there. And so there was kind of. It was kind of in this. It happened after this kind of time of a lot of really difficult things going on in the background. And we decided to move back to Logan from Las Vegas because we really needed some family support. We just felt really isolated in Las Vegas and this was just too much. So we moved back to Logan and

Kirsten Udy [00:37:15] I really wanted primary children. Coming from a mom nurse perspective, I Felt like his medical care needed to come back to Utah. Also a component in that situation. I was only three weeks postpartum when our son was diagnosed with his disease. And when he was diagnosed it was three in a million. So it's a very, very rare disease. It was only in his skeletal system. But you know, there were other emotional dynamics going on, if you will. You know, three weeks postpartum from having a baby. It was probably one of the most stressful times in our life. Then we are selling a house, we're moving back. If you think about the most stressful things that people can go through moves and chronically ill things are rated in the top five.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Yeah.

Kirsten Udy [00:38:23] New babies.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] You had three or three or four. Yeah.

Kirsten Udy [00:38:28] So.

David Udy [00:38:28] Yeah. So it was soon after we moved back to Logan and I was at. I got through a period where I was. When we were living in Las Vegas, I was really. I was going to the temple a lot and I started to do genealogy and we moved back to Logan. I still was doing. I had this personal ancestry file program. I had a lot of our genealogy on there. I just remember I was just looking through our genealogy and for some reason I happened through one of my ancestors, John W. Hess, who was a polygamist. And I found out some. I noticed he had seven wives and I knew about polygamy and it didn't bother me, but I noticed this and I found out that just looking because you can kind of see everything linked together, I realized that his seventh wife was his was his 12 year old niece and he was 51 when he married her.

David Udy [00:39:13] And that just when I realized that, it just struck me and I started looking and then I started looking at like Brigham Young and Joseph Smith's polygamy look just on the church's own website, looking at their. I started seeing their marriage and like how wives were intermarried between them. And he was a Kimball. And just all of a sudden I had this whitewashed version in my head of what polygamy was. And all of a sudden the reality of what was going on with polygamy just hit me like a tidal wave. And I had. And I had these other concerns that were on the shelf. And all of a sudden I'm like, there's something just in my core, there's something up here.

David Udy [00:39:51] And it just. I just said to myself, I'm just going to look and I'm going to find out what's going on here. It just kind of opened up a mystery for me. Like there's something doesn't seem Right here. And I need to know what's going on. And I. And I just spent like an hour or two with that, with no restraint, researching. And, you know, I'm an engineer. I understand how to research. I feel like I can tell good sources from poor sources. And I just was like, I'm not just going to listen to what the church people tell me. I'm going to really search. Within a couple hours there I was done. There was done. Like, I could never go back.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] Oh, wow. And what year was this?

David Udy [00:40:32] Would have been 2004, I think.

Kirsten Udy [00:40:34] Also, it's important for him to tell you more about, you know, he expresses his tidal wave about finding out, you know, that one of his grandpas was a polygamist. Linking back a little bit to just the sexual abuse that went on in his family.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] Yeah, yeah. So if you've experienced sexual abuse, physical abuse, and then you're seeing polygamy, that starts to feel abusive.

Kirsten Udy [00:41:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] I can see that being very triggering for you, David.

David Udy [00:41:09] Yeah, yeah. It felt linked to me. I can't, you know, I can't say that's. That's. I can't. I can't blame it on that. I don't think that that's.

Kirsten Udy [00:41:18] Well, I think that that was a huge component.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] No, no. I mean, that could make you sensitive to matters of abuse. There's nothing devaluing about that. That's just. But, but David, you're saying it was other things, too. David, really quickly. In 2004, that's the year I moved to Logan. So we were. We were both in Logan at the same time. There. There weren't, you know, CES letter didn't exist then. Mormonthink didn't exist then. Mormon stories didn't exist then. Just list in just one sentence any resources that were available to you that helped you kind of figure these things out.

David Udy [00:41:55] I can't remember any specific resource. Honestly. There was.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] Okay, that's fine. That's fine.

David Udy [00:42:03] Looking at the things that were giving me trouble, that I was finding resources that would reference me to things in, like the Journal of Discourses and things that were written and published by the Church. But my problems weren't with some other foreign material. My problems were material that was actually that you could. Church's website right now.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Got it.

David Udy [00:42:25] Look up from Journal Discourses. So it was actual writings of the early leaders of the church. And I don't remember what references kind of brought me to those because it's. Obviously the church doesn't make those. Point those out. Yeah, I had other resources Saying, go look at this, and I would look at these problems.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Got it. So, Kirsten, were you aware that David was going through this, or did he. How did you become aware that David had lost his faith?

Navigating Belief Differences as a Couple

Kirsten Udy [00:42:57] Yes, you are very aware, especially when it's your spouse. It became a big source of conflict.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] How'd you first find out?

Kirsten Udy [00:43:14] I've grown a lot. Well, he just started saying, I don't want to go to church anymore, and just really being, you know, adamant about that.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Did he not tell you why at first?

David Udy [00:43:30] No, no.

Kirsten Udy [00:43:30] He. He was able to tell me the whole time what he was feeling and what he was experiencing.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Okay, so the whole time he's studying, he's telling you about what he's learning. Is that right?

Kirsten Udy [00:43:42] I mean, I would have to ask. And back then, honestly, our communication was not optimal between each other. It was very hurtful. I wish we would have been able to have your marriage. Interfaith marriage that we just experienced.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] The retreat.

Kirsten Udy [00:44:06] The retreat, like, way back. I mean, I think there was such positive information given by both you and Julie in, you know, that emotional intimacy portion where it could have really saved a lot of her and turmoil in the way that we were communicating with each other because it became more of an attack session between the two of us. And you can't do that to each other. I mean, it doesn't move you along in your relationship in a positive way. So, you know, we love counseling. We've been to marriage counseling, we've been to family counseling, many different things over the years.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Let me. Before you jump to that, if it's okay, I'm going to jump in with some questions here and there. So, David, what were you feeling in relation to Kirsten and your marriage? As you are aware that your marriage was built upon this agreement that you would both be committed to the gospel? And then you're learning this stuff, feeling angry and. And you're realizing you don't want to go to church anymore. As you're contemplating talking to Kirsten about this, what's going through your mind? Can you even remember 13 years ago? Were you scared? Were you angry? Were you eager, happy? Like, what. When you thought about trying to communicate this to Kirsten, what was that like for you? What were you feeling and thinking?

David Udy [00:45:48] Right. So. Well, keep in mind that at this time in our lives, we had our son on chemo, so we had. There was a lot of other distractions going on. So like Kirsten said, we had. Our communication wasn't awesome at the time, but there was a lot of Reasons for that, a lot of things going on that were kind of pulling us in those different directions.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] It was a bad time. It was the worst possible time to be having this.

Kirsten Udy [00:46:09] Oh, but isn't that how life works?

John Dehlin [00:46:12] It is, it is.

David Udy [00:46:13] But yet my feelings inside, I felt. I felt, for one thing, my feelings, I just felt betrayed. I felt like I. Like, holy crap. I've spent all this time just feeling like all this inner. Because my experience in the church has been a lot of shame and guilt and just pressure and just been really hard emotions inside and feeling like these church leaders have been pushing me to do this and this and this and this and just really putting their thumbs down on me is how it felt. And they've got this stuff going on that they're not being open about. So I felt, I felt, I felt kind of betrayed and violated just by the church.

David Udy [00:46:53] And I felt. And I knew that Kirsten was not going to be on board with this, but I felt like there was just no other way. I had to tell her and I had to be open with her about it, but it was sort of something. It was just. I had to do that.

David Udy [00:47:10] And so I just knew that was gonna. I knew that it was not gonna be easy, that it was gonna be very hard and long lasting. I knew that. And it felt, it also felt a little bit like being just in the Twilight Zone. Like, to me, the problems were just so obvious. And yeah, I'm in Logan and Logan is. You've lived there and everybody there believes and everybody's a member and why would you even doubt it? And I was, yeah, I felt very isolated, very, very alone and felt kind of betrayed.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] And what about. How did you feel like Kirsten was gonna respond? What were your fears about Kirsten and her response and how it might affect your marriage?

David Udy [00:47:53] Yeah, I didn't think that it would end our marriage. I never really thought that in my head. But I knew that it was going to be a lot of turmoil. I remember when I first told her that, she was just crying very openly, very sad. And I knew it was going to be a lot of pain. I knew that. And it really was a lot of pain. I wasn't planning on going anywhere myself. And I didn't feel. I know Kirsten. I knew her then. I didn't feel like she'd be going anywhere. She's kind of a person that will. She's a very loyal kind of a person that will stand by, you know, if she's committed to somebody, she stands by them. That's Just how she is for a lot of years.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] Wow. That's. You know, I've had this theory that for many couples, a mixed faith marriage doesn't necessarily ruin a marriage. What it does is it sort of reveals and exposes a marriage exactly for what it is. And it's sounds like, David, maybe both of you are just two people that are very committed to each other and committed to your relationship.

David Udy [00:49:06] And.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] Wow. So it sounds like you didn't even have to deal with that fear of being left or abandoned or divorced. And in that case, it just became a matter of how you dealt with it. For so many others, I think maybe they really weren't as committed to each other. They were committed to the gospel. And so when the gospel foundation erodes, then the marriage erodes. But it sounds like you guys really had a solid commitment to each other, and the church was part of the foundation, but it wasn't the foundation of your commitment to each other. Or at least it wasn't conditional. Maybe, Kirsten, for you it was the foundation of your commitment, but your commitment was unwavering. Did you contemplate Kirsten wanting to end the marriage?

Kirsten Udy [00:50:03] No, that was not the piece that would have ended our marriage. The thing that would have ended our marriage was the alcoholism. And we can go into that further.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Okay.

Kirsten Udy [00:50:14] That is when I did contemplate about.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] Okay, divorce. So just to summarize from your perspective, Kirsten, once he tells you, once, you know, he's done, once, you know, he's angry, what was that like for you, especially during such an incredibly difficult time in your life?

Kirsten Udy [00:50:36] Like he said, it was very. I went through a grieving process. I was very sad. I was very disappointed. It's been an interesting journey. You know, back then I was very focused on, oh, my goodness, what are my neighbors going to think when I go to church and my husband's not with me?

Kirsten Udy [00:51:01] You know, kind of living up to the Joneses next door type theory in my mind. Interestingly enough, having gone through this experience with each other, you kind of hit it in in your comments on the head. You know, it has strengthened our marriage extremely.

Kirsten Udy [00:51:23] Has it been a process? Yes, it's been a huge process. And we continually gain healthy insight through our experiences, but we put ourselves there. Does that make sense? Like we take the opportunity to take. I personally was the one that said we need to go to this marriage retreat with Julie and John. You know, we're always looking for things to grow in our relationship to communicate better and to truly understand each other. You are right.

Kirsten Udy [00:52:01] From the Very, very beginning. Dave and I had a commitment to each other, to each other as people. And, you know, when we started to bring children into the world, we always had a goal that we wanted our children to feel loved, to come home and to want to come home.

Kirsten Udy [00:52:29] And so that's. That's where we've built our family from. Of course, the religious component is extremely important in that. Having had this experience, though, in my life, it really boils down to love and the connection between us as humans.

David Udy [00:52:58] And, you know, I love it.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] I'm inspired. I think that's the way marriages should be. You should be committed to each other, to the marriage, to the children, and fight for it for as long as you can. But something like religion should never. Should never make a family break up, and it should never make one spouse feel like they're a disappointment, because no one wants to live feeling like a disappointment. So, David, tell us how the alcoholism began for you.

David Udy [00:53:34] Right, so I think a lot of. I just want to clear one thing. I think a lot of times people lose belief in the church and they get accused of wanting to leave just so they can go out and party or drink. And it was absolutely not the case for me. I did not have issues with the church to justify me going and drinking. It came.

David Udy [00:53:56] The. Starting to drink came pretty soon after this major shelf crash. Starting to drink came pretty soon after that, but it was absolutely not a reason why. The drinking was just a separate issue was related to that. But there's. There's more to it, and we'll. We'll get into this as we talk about the recovery side of things, as I started to understand my patterns. But, yeah, I just started to.

David Udy [00:54:22] I just started to drink. And Kirsten was gone a lot. She was gone a lot with our son in chemotherapy. So they were off spending a lot of time, and she'd be like, overnight trips in the hospital and. And when there was.

David Udy [00:54:36] And she didn't approve of me drinking, I knew she wouldn't. So I would. In secret, I would drink when she was gone. I'm not proud of that at all. Right. That my son's off being treated for chemotherapy and Dad's at home drinking alcohol. It's not a great, glamorous story that I'm proud of, but that's the reality of when I would drink.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] And again, tell us what the function of the drinking was for you. I'm drinking because. Why in your mind, in your. Your feelings, your emotions?

David Udy [00:55:03] Well, at the time. At the time, there was. I wouldn't have I didn't have all that put together. Right. That's something that I put together later as I start to evaluate and understand things and to recover. It's not, I think, that the active alcoholic or drug addict. I'm not a drug addict, but I would think they're kind of the same thing. I know at the time, an active alcoholic doesn't tend to know the reasons why that's something.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] Right.

David Udy [00:55:31] To recover. So I didn't. I had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] So at the time. Well, at the. At the time, what do you think the thought process was? And it could be just an emotional process, but summarize it in a sentence or two. Like, what. How do you go from, like, active Mormon? Now you're struggling? What sort of pushes you to that point of alcohol? What. What was it?

David Udy [00:55:51] I just. I just decided to drink and I drank, and it was awesome. It felt so good, and it was just. It was so relieving. And there was this period of a few hours or whatever where I just felt really good. And I knew the first time that I want to do this whenever I can because it just felt so good.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] So you're just like, hey, I know there's this way to feel good. I tried it back before I, you know, served my mission. Now I can do this again. So whenever I want to feel good, I'll drink. Is that kind of an okay summary?

David Udy [00:56:30] I never related it back to my use of marijuana. And I drink sometimes as a youth, but I never drinking as an adult. I never related it back to that. I never. I don't remember ever thinking, this was awesome back then. I could have it again now. It was. It was actually kind of a new experience.

John Dehlin [00:56:46] Okay, but, but, but was it. There's a. There's this way to feel good, and I want to feel good, so I'm going to feel good.

The Onset and Escalation of David's Drinking

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 803

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Okay, all right. So you start drinking and it starts out. It starts out rare. How does it sort of build? And we're not going to be able to go too in depth, but tell us how it went from the first time to a problem in, you know, in a short kind of summary.

David Udy [00:00:45] It was kind of a problem right from the beginning. And I. And my pattern was always. I was always sort of a binge drinker. So I never. I was never a daily drinker. I was always a functional alcoholic. So the whole. This whole time I'm working full time, being pretty successful in my career, doing design work at the time, on roller coasters and that kind of thing.

David Udy [00:01:10] And I'm doing like side gigs, so I have like a side business and I'm doing well there. So I'm working all the time, a lot of hours, doing well in the workplace. Then whenever I have a opportunity, I would just drink a lot.

David Udy [00:01:25] And it was when Kirsten was gone or else. Yeah, on weekends. Sometimes on weekends. And I go. It might be a month between drinking sessions. Right. So it's not like I would just drink all the time. I would drink when the opportunity was right and I could have time and space to do it. And sometimes I started making time. So I would like, we bought a camper and I'd take the kids out camping. Kirsten didn't like to go camping, so I could just go there. And now I've got all the kids and I'm just hanging out there around the campfire drinking. Just.

Kirsten Udy [00:01:53] I think a huge component to this is that he was drinking in secret. He was drinking, like he said, when it was convenient, when I was not there, in secret.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Okay, why is that important, Kirsten?

Kirsten Udy [00:02:10] Because when it all hit the fan, that relationship of trust that I talked about in the beginning of our relationship, it was shattered. It was totally shattered into 3 million pieces. And that is what rocked our marriage. If you do not have a relationship of trust with each other. You know, I found out that he was taking our two young sons with him camping, and he was drinking. He was getting drunk with my two young sons. These stories would come up after the fact. And he was not being open with me at all. And those years of the alcoholism, the trust gauge, like I said, I can't even articulate what that did to our relationship. It became a very, very, extremely stressful thing to me. And I still have post traumatic stress from that that we have to work through.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] Absolutely. So it's about trust. Don't. And this is a typical pattern with a Mixed faith couple. When the believer stops believing, there are all sorts of things they don't want to do. They don't want to wear their garments anymore, they don't want to pay tithing, they don't want to attend church. Sometimes they don't want to admit their disbelief. Maybe they want to start drinking or maybe they, they start feeling sexually awakened or curious.

John Dehlin [00:04:05] And in all those cases, they fear what happens if they're open and direct about the differences. And so whether it's just stopping the paying tithing, changing the amount you pay, whether it's not wearing your garments on business trips or trying to, you know, whatever that is, relationships you might have on Facebook in private, you know, drinking just a little bit of alcohol or beer or wine on a business trip or with a buddy.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] I do feel very, very strongly that, you know, someone just posted this. You gain credibility in drops, but you lose it in buckets. And I think that's true. And I just want to, on behalf of the non believing part in a couple, I just want to say be up front if you want to stop wearing your garments, have the hard conversation now versus erode your credibility later. If you want to start drinking on the road or in private, talk to your spouse about it and be open. If you're going to change how you pay tithing, be direct because trust and credibility is precious and it's not worth it.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] The little wine to have on a business trip or the little, you know, the little money you save with tithing by secretly changing how much you pay or the comfort that you get from not wearing your garments, I promise you, none of that is worth betraying the trust of your partner and more importantly, the pain and suffering that you're going to experience later once everything comes to a head and you've become the type of person that you criticize the church for being, you become a deceiver when you think you're standing for truth.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] And it's just. And Dave, this isn't, you know, we've all done this sort of thing and I just, I think the whole spirit of this interview is to help teach lessons that prevent people from, from suffering later. And so, Dave, please jump in.

David Udy [00:06:27] One thing I want to say is, so I think, and the reason why I don't love to expose myself with this alcohol, my alcoholism, I feel obligated to it. So I talked if I brought it out at this marriage retreat because I know it's a common issue with people leaving church. And so one thing I would want to express is that I'VE known lots of people over the years that drink alcohol and they'll drink like a beer with dinner and they're fun. I've seen lots and lots of people that drink in a healthy way. I know people currently that I know are that way.

David Udy [00:07:05] But coming out of the church, it's just important to do a careful evaluation with something like alcohol because a person leaving the church is often really at risk for problems with alcohol. And I would say that if the spouse is not on board with you drinking alcohol, but alcohol is so important that you would drink anyway, that's a big red flag, right? Because a person that drinks healthy, that's a healthy drinker that drinks a wine, a glass with dinner, it is here nor there to somebody that's healthy with it, somebody that's going to become addicted to it or have patterns of alcoholism has to do it.

David Udy [00:07:49] It feels a real sense of urgency or need to do it. So just needing to do it when your spouse doesn't approve is something that the person that wants to drink should be really concerned about and think about, in my opinion. So yeah, I want to make. I just want to be clear that I don't think alcohol is. Drinking alcohol itself is a bad thing. Most people do it, it's okay, but you have to really evaluate that if you're going to start to do it.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] Absolutely. Okay. So David, how long was it between your first drink and you sort of looking back, feel like you were an alcoholic?

Kirsten Udy [00:08:25] The first time he took that drink, he was an alcoholic.

David Udy [00:08:28] Well, I didn't, I didn't think of myself as an alcoholic until I got a DUI. So I got it in 2010. Yeah, I got a DUI. I was at the.

Kirsten Udy [00:08:42] But he, you had been drinking before that dui. He had been drinking off and on. You know, it would go in cycles as he explained. But there was a good, what, five years? Probably.

David Udy [00:09:02] Yeah, so about six years.

Kirsten Udy [00:09:04] About six years of the drinking. You know, the erosion of trust in that period of time. But so another thing, another thing too, that I, I don't know if you want to talk about this now, John, but Dave, you know, did make the comment that you have to be analyzing yourself from the alcoholics perspective. If it's going to be something that you have to hide from your spouse or go under the table or you need it constantly, then that should bring up a red flag. But there was also in the middle of this five year period where we were going to marriage counseling to try to cope with the fact that Dave wanted to be A social drinker in our marriage. Do you want to talk about that right now, or do you want to say that?

John Dehlin [00:10:09] Yeah, I think that's important. I think a lot of people that drink, I think of it as Russian roulette a little bit. So, David, as you said, most people in the world have a beer with lunch or a couple beers, or they have a glass of wine with dinner, and they live until they're a ripe old age, and it's never a problem. Some people try alcohol, they're like, I don't like it. It's not that it doesn't taste good. It's not interesting to me. It doesn't make me feel good. And I would say that's probably, I don't know, maybe 95 out of 100 people that try it, they're able to have just a healthy relationship with it. The challenge with it is that it's like a. It can be like a gun with 100 chambers or 95 chambers, but if you happen to be that unlucky person, it can wreck your life.

David Udy [00:11:06] Well, both my dad and grandfather died alcoholics. My grandfather died. He had source of liver and shot himself. My dad died, and he was 51. My dad died at 50 from after Halloween. So I have a pattern of it. So if you have a pattern, really watch out.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] So take seriously any patterns in your family history. What else?

Kirsten Udy [00:11:29] So, you know, that's what was terrifying to me, is because I knew the family history. And so when all of this came out, after secretly doing it for many years without me knowing, I mean, it was just. I can't. Like I said, I can't even describe the pain that I was experiencing being feeling so alone. I couldn't share this with my family. Right. There were a few people that I would share things here and there with, but I felt totally encapsulated in this little bubble. And it was just an experience I just wish or hope that anyone has to experience. It's just. It's so heartbreaking, so intense. Yeah. So do you want me to start telling you about when he approached me about socially drinking?

John Dehlin [00:12:52] Yeah. I mean, well, let's just talk about how you guys were able to heal and what the recovery process was like.

Kirsten Udy [00:13:01] The social drinking aspect was not part of the healing process that was actually building on the alcoholism. I was totally terrified when he. He came and told me that, well, you know, now that you know about this, like, when we go out to restaurants and things like that, I want to take a drink.

Kirsten Udy [00:13:26] And like I said before, my core value like, my very inner core just. I've never been appealed to alcohol. I've never liked that scene. I've never placed myself there. And so when my spouse my. Comes to me and says, well, I want to make this a part of our life.

Kirsten Udy [00:13:52] And I'm thinking, no, this cannot happen. I. I don't want this around my children, which it had been secretly. My relationship of trust was already broken with that. And now you want to go out in the public and just drink? Like, the first thought that came to me was, what if my bishop sees us drinking in a restaurant? You drinking in a restaurant? You know, that was my first initial thought, but it was just so profound, to the point that we really did have to go to marriage counseling. I was like, I can't do that. I can't be in that situation. And Dave was just very fervent that that was what he needed to do.

Kirsten Udy [00:14:43] But the underlining foundation of this all was I knew in my heart that he was an alcoholic. He wasn't admitting that right then, but I knew in my heart that he was an alcoholic. And it took a lot of faith to stay in our relationship and let life unfold itself.

Kirsten Udy [00:15:07] But I knew at that moment in time that if we didn't reach out for additional. Help, that it, you know, we were. We were not going to make it through.

Rock Bottom, the DUI, and Its Aftermath

John Dehlin [00:15:26] So was the DUI rock bottom for you, David, or were there other instances that were more rock bottom?

Kirsten Udy [00:15:34] The DUI didn't happen until, like, we were going through the counseling and everything, but the DUI still was two years out from that point of the social drinking and, you know, the counseling of trying to cope with that in our marriage and. Well, if Dick can answer that question, I don't know if that was his bottom or not.

David Udy [00:15:59] Well, to answer that, because you hear a lot about. People talk about the rock bottom kind of concept with alcoholism and drug addiction. In my opinion, from my experience, I would say this rock bottom it is for a lot of people, rock bottom is when you die. Like, people will do this thing until they die. That happens a lot.

David Udy [00:16:21] So there's not any really this rock bottom. And then I've hit this rock bottom, and now that's enough pain that I'm for sure going to decide to recover. But it was a bottom. And I would say pain. Pain for an alcoholic, pain is. It sort of brings on a moment of clarity. So it's sort of like you're just kind of kicked into a river right now. You're like in this daydream state. You Think the world is this way and it's sort of like just a delusion. And then all of a sudden this very painful, surreal experience happens. And now I was just sort of kicked into reality.

David Udy [00:16:59] So when the DUI happened, it was a very traumatic, painful experience for me. And I was like, all of a sudden I'm like woke up from my daydream or my delusion. And that was the point when I first realized, yeah, I'm an alcoholic. It was obvious to my wife and it should have been obvious to me way before then. But that was sort of the moment of clarity that I had where I realized it was an alcoholic. And I was committed to quit. It was enough that I started to quit. And I did quit for a significant period of time. That's when I started doing the LDS 12 step program.

David Udy [00:17:38] I did that for about six months and I actually started running marathons. So I started running, I was actually. I had to work off hours for my dui. I remember I was out shoveling snow, working up hours at this food shelter, and just that feeling in my muscles felt really good. And I decided to start running and. And then I went down running a couple of marathons. So I had a couple of year stretch where I did well.

David Udy [00:18:06] I didn't like the LDS 12 step program. We don't have to get into anything about that other than it wasn't something that I cared for. I had problems with it and that's why I only did it for six months. I just kind of tried to do it on my own and then, well, really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] The Alcoholics Anonymous is sort of world famous for actually being quite helpful and useful to people. And at some point back in 2008, 2009, the church sort of adopted that model and adapted it a bit. So, you know, David, talking about the

Kirsten Udy [00:18:44] dua, can I express some feelings about that?

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Yeah.

Kirsten Udy [00:18:50] Okay. So when that happened for me, I was a hospice case manager when I first became a registered nurse. And so I would do seven days on and seven days off and I was covering the evening hours. And so this was another opportunity where Dave didn't have me there and I was out working for the family, providing for our family. And like Dave said, he's always been a great provider. We've always had good health insurance through all of our things with our son. But you know, I was out working for the family and Dave was home binge drinking on the weekends.

David Udy [00:19:43] And

Kirsten Udy [00:19:45] it was so hard for me because I knew that that was going to happen. I knew that he was doing it he would be very dishonest with me. But I knew that it was happening, and it put a lot of stress on my shoulders because I was providing for the family. But knowing that I was leaving my young children to their father, that was, you know, binge drinking and being an alcoholic, it's just. It's something. I can't even express how intense it was for me.

Kirsten Udy [00:20:20] And I remember Dave just always saying to me, I'm in control of this. It's not affecting anybody but me. And those words are still so hard for me, because alcoholism does not just affect the person that's drinking. It affects the whole entire family.

Kirsten Udy [00:20:49] And I think for me, that night of the DUI was the worst day of my life, the worst night of my life. And when I had to go to each one of my children, I didn't hide it under the rug.

Kirsten Udy [00:21:08] I've had a lot of wisdom and knowledge given to me through my schooling, through my years of behavioral health and nursing, and I wasn't gonna hide it. It was real. It was the reality of our family. And I didn't know how we were going to work through it or get through it, but I had to go to each one of my children and tell them that their dad was in jail.

Kirsten Udy [00:21:38] And, you know, each child has their own experience with that and how it felt, but I. It was just so heartbreaking to have to do that. And then another thing that was, you know, hard about that weekend when DUI happened, like I said, I was on call and I was at work, and it was my responsibility, job wise, to be on call for that whole weekend for the hospice company that I worked with, and I got the call that he had been arrested with a dui. When I was leaving, taking care of my patient that had just fallen and was getting close to dying.

Kirsten Udy [00:22:27] And they asked me, will you take responsibility for him? I thought to myself, hell, no. Are you kidding me? He can take responsibility for himself. But it just. I remember just sitting down on the stairs, coming out of the. That little patient's apartment and thinking to myself, what in the world is, you know, happening? Like, my whole world had just been shattered.

Kirsten Udy [00:22:56] And it was so embarrassing for me and shameful for me to have to call my supervisor and tell them because I was so emotional, I could not take care of my little patients wives the rest of that weekend.

Kirsten Udy [00:23:12] And. The significance of that, still, it's really hard to talk about because I am a very loyal and dependable person. And because of my husband's actions, I had to, you know, call and say, oh, I'm so sorry. My husband is an alcoholic and he just got a dui.

Kirsten Udy [00:23:41] That is just so hard to say to people. They were very understanding. And then I didn't have to work the rest of the weekend, but in. In the course of that weekend, I left Dave in jail. He was going to take responsibility for himself. I didn't know very much about the legal system.

Kirsten Udy [00:24:05] My husband and my awesome son, they've taught me a lot. I didn't even know where the Davis County Jail was to go and pick Dave up. And I said, if I leave him there, how does he get home? And they said, oh, we'll let him sober up overnight and give him a bus ticket or a bus token in the morning. And I said, great.

David Udy [00:24:27] So

Kirsten Udy [00:24:31] that I remember looking at a family picture that we had just taken a couple weeks before that. It was a beautiful family picture. It was in poppies. And I considered burning that. That night that I was. I couldn't sleep. I was planning on how I was going to end our marriage, how I was going to get a divorce and leave. I was done.

Beginning Recovery and Staying Sober

John Dehlin [00:25:07] Well, I just have to say, just as a pause, that it is so incredibly courageous for me and noble that you guys would be willing to be so vulnerable. Both you, Kirsten, to talk about the pain, and you, David, to talk about, you know, to be willing to speak publicly about something that so many would feel shame talking about. We've got about 30 more minutes, and there's kind of three things I really want to focus on. One is, David, how you got better. If you had to give tips on how you got better, I'd love to hear that. I'd love to talk about how you guys rebuilt your trust and your relationship. And then I want to talk about how the mixed faith marriage works now. So we've got a lot to cover in a short amount of time.

David Udy [00:25:56] Time.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] So, David, let's just say there's people out there who are struggling with alcohol or drug addiction. No one wants to lose their home. No one wants to lose their job. No one wants DUIs. No one wants to wreck their marriage. And yet there are. You know, part of the reason why drug and alcohol addiction is so pernicious is that you can try and quit. You can want to quit, but it can pull you right back in. How long have you been sober, David? If you're.

David Udy [00:26:30] Four and a half years.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Four and a half years. So can you tell us just in five minutes, what were your keys to success and what would you suggest to others who want to successfully become sober. How do you do it? How did you do it?

David Udy [00:26:50] Well, so you have, as I said, that there's. There's going to be painful experiences, pain that is going to bring the alcoholic to these moments of clarity. And when you, when you have. As an alcoholic, if you have a moment, when you have the moment of clarity, not if it wins. You'll have them. When you have them, take advantage of it to get. Go. Go get help, start searching.

David Udy [00:27:13] It. It doesn't. It's not like you just go search and you find the end. I didn't just go search out, and I found the answer immediately. It was a process. I kept looking, kept looking. I had that moment of clarity when I got the dui. I started to get some help, made some progress, and a couple years later, I relapsed. And as soon as I relapsed, it wasn't very long. I'm like, I can't do. I realized I couldn't do this on my own. That's when I started looking for AA as a resource. I had some experience with it as a youth, so I kind of knew about it.

David Udy [00:27:44] And I. And I didn't just go find a meeting, and it was the right meeting either. I went to. I went to. I just went and started trying different meetings, and I finally came across the particular meeting that really clicked with me. So you just have to kind of start when you have a moment of clarity, start looking, looking for help. AA is a good resource, but it's not just magic either. You have to find the meeting, the fit. You have to. And AA doesn't just work on its own either. It takes. It takes a lot of work from the individual.

Kirsten Udy [00:28:14] Sponsor is a key.

David Udy [00:28:16] Yes. Having sponsorship is really a key. And to me, the thing that makes AA successful is the. Is the intimacy part of it. Recovery from alcoholism, for me, thing that was really the thing that worked was connection, learning to connect to other people.

David Udy [00:28:36] You know, Kirsten just told her painful story about my behavior, and that's. As a recovered alcoholic, it's painful and difficult to listen to when your loved ones tell you those stories. But you have to. I have, you know, you have to just listen, just learn just to stopping kind of letting the internal pain, just kind of let it rest, listen to it. But, you know, listening to and connecting with people, you know, people that have been with, that were with me through this whole thing, I just stopping and listening to those people and I. And I. But I needed help to learn to do that.

David Udy [00:29:08] I had to have guidance. So Sponsorship was important, and a lot of the program of AA for me was a process of becoming self aware. It kind of works on drawing back or deflating ego is the term that gets used. Is this deflating the ego? And people think the ego or pride is this bad thing. We all have ego. It's not anything bad to have ego, but if you want to make a change, to make a change in my life, I had to.

David Udy [00:29:40] I had to have the ego deflated, if that makes sense, so that I could learn and make it and make a change. And so there's a lot of. Just for me, I was committed to this. I was going to get. I wanted to understand myself. There was more just. It was not just like alcoholism. The bottles are just symbols. It's not just the drinking. It was the internal thinking.

David Udy [00:30:07] There was this pattern of thinking of how I thought of the world and how I thought of myself that I really had to learn to discover and understand. It's not like it was my fault. It was just something that I kind of grew up in. And one thing I really want to mention is I had a friend tell me about this idea of an inner audience. It's kind of different term, but that he was actually talking about kids, like playing Xbox. This individual, he's somebody I have a lot of respect for. He's actually a descendant of Brigham Young. And he kind of talked me about this idea of an inner audience where as you develop as a child and into adulthood, all the different.

David Udy [00:30:47] There's yourself and there's the things around you, religion and associating with other people. But you sort of develop this inner audience where you think you're just out doing your thing, but actually there's an internal self that's reacting to everything that you do. And so him explaining to that kind of gave me an awareness to that in myself that it's not like you can just negotiate with that either.

David Udy [00:31:13] It believes what it believes. If it thinks that it needs to punish you, it will. And it can be really relentless and cause a lot of pain. So just learning, just learning to look at myself in a very deep way.

David Udy [00:31:26] And like mindfulness, I learned about mindfulness meditation. Just learning to just listen, sit and meditate and listen to my emotions without any judgment. Like my emotions are what they are and just listen. Just a lot of listening and reflection. And, you know, they talk about in aa, the Fearless Inventory, just without any regard, Just. Just really listening and evaluating oneself. It's. It's a very. At first, it feels. It feels very painful. You there's a lot of things you want to. Your gut reaction is just to put this thing in the closet. I just don't want to think about this. I want to ignore it. But it's.

David Udy [00:32:02] It's sort of a process of opening up that closet, taking things out and looking, really looking at things without. Without any personal judgment, learning to kind of let go of that personal judgment. You know, we all. A lot of the ways that we react in life are sort of automatic, and we tend to give ourselves all this judgment for things when we're really acting out of. Out of a lot of pain. And so just learning to sort of understand and see that in myself, it's not like. It's not like something I can express very easily in a podcast like this. It's a process, a very personal process that I went through.

David Udy [00:32:41] And Alcoholics Anonymous was sort of the vessel that helped me do that. I'm not gonna say that that's the only one. There's other. There's other others like it, I'm sure, but that was the one that worked for me, and there's individuals there that were there to help me. But, yeah, you do have. I did have. I don't know. I came.

Kirsten Udy [00:32:59] It's still. It's still hard for you to do that sometimes, too. Like, hard for. It's very hard for him still to be alone with himself. For me, I love it. I'm like, please let me be alone. I take care of patients all day long. I take care of family, you know. But it's interesting because we just had a conversation and some developments over the past weekend where Dave's like, it's still really hard for me to be by myself, like, be with that inner audience. And so, you know, like Dave said, it's a process to recover, and we're still recovering as a couple, and we'll still run into different scenarios and different things in life that remind us that, oh, maybe, you know, maybe we need to go to the counseling again for another tune up. And that's okay. It's important to. To know that it's not. It's not ever fixed. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:34:05] Sure. That's why they say you're never cured, right?

Kirsten Udy [00:34:09] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's a disease. It's something that you manage. It's something that you learn to overcome and make healthy. But there's always going to be triggers or things that in your life that you realize, oh, I think it's time to adjust that or look at that,

David Udy [00:34:30] or

Kirsten Udy [00:34:33] what do we need to do? To get the healthy coping mechanism or the healthy side of this taken care of so it doesn't pop up again.

Lessons from Recovery and Coping Strategies

David Udy [00:34:44] One thing that feels kind of really important that I want to make sure I cover was there was this sort of this aha moment for me. I guess, through my recovery, there was just certain moments, you know, sometimes when I learn. Would learn something, and it would just kind of click at my inner self. Right. So there's something in my. In my core that would believe and latch onto something. And one of those was I was. I was really having a hard time with this sense of worthiness, like, you know, being raised up in LDS faith. There's just. Everything's wrapped around whether you're worthy or not, or whether or not.

David Udy [00:35:17] Whether or not I'm worthy for God's love, whether or not I'm gonna have some kind of divine help, whether I'm not doing enough to do that. And my sponsor told me one time when I was sort of having one of these moments talking to him about this, he said, well, if you're willing, you're worthy. And for whatever reason at that moment, that just. It just snapped with me. And it's like, oh, yeah. And I believe that. And that was a big change, game changer for me. And it just changed the way that I feel about being about what I. What I really need to do.

David Udy [00:35:50] And really, I just learned that it became kind of easy for me to walk the road because I just. It's just a matter of every day I get up, I have a routine to kind of get myself positive in the morning, and I just live that. I suit up, show up, I live my day, I go to work, I do my best. And then. And that's. That's all. If I've done. If I've gotten up that day and I'm willing to. To advance and do the right things that day, then I'm. Then I'm fine.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] And how do you cope with the impulse to drink when it comes, David? What do you. What do you do? How do you respond to the impulse?

David Udy [00:36:29] Kind of. Strangely enough, after about. Took about a year of aa, and I haven't had the impulse. The impulse just kind of went away. So I haven't had that. I do have. I do have periods where I really feel kind of shaken up inside. Like Kirsten said, when I'm alone, sometimes I'll be on a business trip and I'm by myself. I really have a hard time there. And sometimes I've gone back to smoking cigarettes. Like, I'll Smoke cigarettes for a weekend. It's kind of weird. And then I throw them away. So I haven't always coped with things in the right way, but I've never. I've just never had an impulse to drink. That hasn't been a thing for me. So. But I think that that's. That the smoking thing, when that's occurred, that's sort of a. Should be like kind of a canary in the mind kind of a thing.

Kirsten Udy [00:37:21] It's like, it's lesser, you know, like, okay, I'm not gonna pick up the bottle. I'll, you know, I'll find emotional release in the cigarette. So. Which is difficult for me when that happens. That brings out my post traumatic stress because I'm like, are you sure the bottle of alcohol wasn't in there? You know, so it's just something that we're working through right now, realizing that there are still those moments in life where. And there always will be. Right. It's just learning how to cope with that in a healthy way.

David Udy [00:38:00] But, yeah, I think that I'm trying to be open here because I'm trying to just paint a real picture here. It's not, it's not like I recovered and everything's fixed, right? It's. And that. And that idea, I think going in when somebody goes into recovery, there's this sort of desire to get to this magic point. And now things are fixed. Now I can live my life.

David Udy [00:38:21] The truth is that your. You can live your life right now. The first day of the person that's recovering. You can start to live your life right now. It doesn't happen. It's not something that's going to happen in some future. It happens right now, today, every day. And you're not going to reach.

David Udy [00:38:39] There's not some magic perfection that's to be reached. It's a new fresh start every single day. And a lot of watching myself and watching my emotions and just when I see that my feet, my emotions are not right, just going back. And for me, it's a lot of my patterns and habits. So Kirsten is harder. Kirsten. Because I feel kind of robotic. But I just have these routines. I just do these. I have like my daily routine and I'll just do that day in and day out. And for me, that's very comforting. And for Kirschn, it's like, how can it looks menaged or sometimes. But for me, and this probably goes

John Dehlin [00:39:23] without saying, Dave, but for you, does recovery mean never drinking alcohol again? Is that not. Not even a sip not ever.

David Udy [00:39:30] A beer. Yeah. If I. Well, if I drink alcohol, I'll go back. That's just the pattern with alcohol. I know that for a fact.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Okay. Okay.

David Udy [00:39:41] If I drink alcohol, I'll fall back in that pattern. That doesn't mean that I'm done. That. That would mean I'd need to focus and go by and. And start. Basically, I'd need to start over. Not sort of the wrong word, but I need. I need to go. AA meetings, sponsorship, just really immediately go right back. Yeah. But, yeah, I can't. It's not like something where an alcoholic can't just. Can't just drink and go back to normal. It doesn't.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Does that mean that for you. You avoid any situation where other people are going to be drinking or where you could be invited to drink?

Kirsten Udy [00:40:17] We kind of choose those things together, you know, because there are. There are things in life where there might be alcohol present. But I. For me, it's. You know, it's not a big deal, but I do. I'm very sensitive to Dave and his perception. So there are things that we do exclude ourselves from. We understand that's part of managing the disease process and understanding what that is and what it does. And so. But, you know, we went on a cruise together in January, and there was alcohol everywhere on that cruise boat. Dave said he was fine, and there wasn't any problems with it there. But, you know, sometimes we're invited to certain things and. And we just have to choose not to go because it will be too much of an intimate situation and it's too hard on Dave.

David Udy [00:41:15] Well, I would say that with alcohol, alcohol is everywhere. It's at every gas station. It's not something that you can stay away from completely ever. So there's been events that I've just kind of chosen not to go to because I know alcohol is really going to be kind of the center of that. I. They just don't really. That doesn't appeal. It's not so much that I'm afraid of the alcohol, more that. That doesn't appeal to me, and I don't really want to put myself through that. But if. But if I'm not in a place. I'm not in a place emotionally where I don't need to drink, then I can get it anywhere. It's really easy.

Kirsten Udy [00:41:50] So.

Advice for Mixed-Faith Couples

John Dehlin [00:41:50] All right. Well, this is such a story of hope. And so I just can't thank you guys enough for being willing to tell your story, to give some tips and tricks, because I know you're not alone. I have some close friends of mine who have been through some similar things. And so I just think it's really important that we talk about it. We talk about how to get better and we talk about how to move forward really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] What I want to end is talking about how. And this will probably deserve its own deep dive, either with you guys or with other couples. But how do you navigate the mixed faith marriage now? What are the. Let's just say you each were to give three to five tips to other couples that are trying to make it work. What tips would you give on how to have a healthy and happy marriage when one of you believes and one of you doesn't? Kirsten, why don't you go first?

John Dehlin [00:42:48] What are three to five lessons either you as a believer have learned? Actually, let's do it this way. Kirsten, what advice would you give to believers who are thinking about leaving their spouse or who are really angry at their spouse or they're just stuck in this rut where the mixed faith marriage is not working? What are the tips you would give to the believer to keep the marriage healthy and to strengthen it?

Kirsten Udy [00:43:15] For me, having that eternal perspective of what I entered into in the beginning gives me a lot of strength to continue in our relationship and for our family. I believe that we'll be an eternal family. I know that God is very aware of our family and what we are doing on a day to day basis. And I don't worry about the future. I live in the present and I embrace that.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] So for you does your version of the gospel. And I found this to be key for the believer Part of the couple is your view that God's going to make it all work out in the end, that you don't need to ruin your life now for some future thing. God will work it out and trust God, right?

Kirsten Udy [00:44:14] So one of my favorite quotes from Alcoholics Anonymous and Al Anon is let go and let God. And that is really, really easy to say. But truly I try to apply that in my life in many different ways. And I do believe that God knows me and he knows my husband. He knows what each one of us have been through in our lives and our journeys and where we're going.

Kirsten Udy [00:44:43] Another key component for me is that we both still are spiritual people. We both are. Our values are the same. We want to have our family together. We love our children. You know, we did that values experiment in the mixed faith marriage retreat and that was such an eye opener to me to look at that and to see that we have so Much in common. And it's definitely. You have to rebuild yourself because that original expectation and foundation isn't there anymore, but.

Kirsten Udy [00:45:38] Is to me worth it for my family's sake. Because I go back to that eternal perspective. I know that I want my family for eternity and that, like you said, God is going to work it out. And I think that one of my personal mantras in life in many different aspects, like I shared before, is that quote from Al Anon. It's had a huge impact on my life. Let go and let God.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] So just kind of acceptance.

Kirsten Udy [00:46:17] Yep. Also for me to realize that it's okay for us to be on a. On different spiritual journeys. It brings a wholesome in my life to sit down with each other and respect each other and have. Which we still work on. But we're in a different place with our communication than we were in the beginning. And I think it's a key component to gaining relationship of trust back with each other and to understand each other as individuals, to continue to master that in our relationship, in our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] How do you get over looking at him like this huge disappointment and betrayer? Because I always feel like no healthy marriage can survive. If either of you view the other as a disappointment, how do you get over the fact that from your perspective, he wrecked the deal and he spoiled what felt like an eternal family? At least for now. Do you view Dave as a disappointment now? And if not, how did you get over that?

Kirsten Udy [00:47:43] I don't view him as a disappointment now in my life, I have in the past felt betrayed and the disappointment's been there and the hurt I've expressed that, you know, through what we talked about. So for me, looking at Dave as an individual and honestly, I believe that God has, in certain times of my life, blessed me with his perspective. And he is an amazing person. It's the individuality, I guess, that I focus on and that we. I truly believe that we are all children of God and we come here to have a journey and the journey is not perfect and we're gonna make mistakes and we're here to connect with each other and to help each other through that journey. And it's not easy. It's hard. Sometimes it's really hard.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] And you say in the end, your marriage has been strengthened, Kirsten, is that right?

Kirsten Udy [00:48:55] Yes, it's been strengthened, but it hasn't been easy. There's been a lot of pain and there's been a lot of loneliness. But, you know, in my mind, if I'm looking at it at a religious perspective and A believer. I believe that my marriage will be eternal. We fought for our family. We fight for each other. That's what we do every single day.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Love it. David, if you had some tips for the non believer on how to navigate this in a way that leads to a healthy outcome versus just pain and suffering and conflict and division, what tips would you give the non believer?

David Udy [00:49:48] Okay. Yeah, one of them. First one, I guess, would be. There's something that came. It was told to me or advised to me during my recovery. And it was. The piece of advice was that you have to find. You have to. What's the word? Yeah, you need to find peace with the religion of your childhood. That's something that I had heard, and I really. I believe that that was correct when I heard it. But I'm like, I'm not ready to do that yet.

Kirsten Udy [00:50:16] And he's still working on that religion.

David Udy [00:50:21] But I would say not even from. Not even from a recovering alcoholic perspective, I'd say from any. Any perspective, in my. My opinion, that that's probably a pretty true statement. Not that a person has to do that if you don't want to. But I think to find. To find some inner peace, I think that there's. You have to find some way to. To find peace with the religion. There's all kinds of religions. Religion is part of humanity all over the world. There's all kinds of them. And this. And this thing that Mormons, you know, post Mormons, whatever you want to call us, go through is not something unique to us.

David Udy [00:50:58] This happens the Catholics, happens to Baptists, happens to all kinds of faith. So it's. So finding peace with that is just an important thing. And also, I would say from a certain point of view, Mormonism is true, all the religions are true.

David Udy [00:51:18] But in the same way, from my perspective, it's in the same way that, like, a dollar is true. Right. We could say from looking at our currency or whatever, that there's a lot of corruption and there's a lot of things that are problems with that. But the fact is that our overall society believes in using currency or dollar bills or whatever or money to buy things. And if you.

David Udy [00:51:45] I can't just, like, say, well, I don't believe that, or I can. I can say that, but it's gonna cause me a lot of harm and a lot of problems in my life. So just. There's sort of a reality that, you know, almost everybody that's in my life is a believer in Mormonism. That's just a reality. And what. And if I'M only gonna cause myself damage by trying to ignore that fact or.

David Udy [00:52:09] Or fight against that fact. So I've actually started going back to church with Kirsten on Sundays. And part of that is because I just. I've been listening to her and I hear her say that it's painful to sit at church alone. There's sort of a stigma to have to be this wife with just the kids and dragging the kids to church. So I go to.

David Udy [00:52:31] You know, I don't. I have to. I'm working on not rolling my eyes internally when I'm in the meetings. That's kind of the next step. But it's a spiritual thing for me to go church with my wife and my daughter and my son if he comes too, because I know I'm doing something that feels good to them. I'm making them feel more like they're kind of the norm. So there is a point of view where we're attending a church meeting. Even for somebody that doesn't buy into the truth claims, there can be ways to look at it and be a spiritual thing.

Kirsten Udy [00:53:06] It brings a wholeness to our. To me. This was not my idea, by the way. Dave came to me about a month ago and said that he was going to start. I've been peacefully attending church for several years by myself because I realized that that's my spiritual journey. And I, many years ago, was done dragging him with me.

Kirsten Udy [00:53:31] You know, I. And I really don't care what the Joneses think. You can love me for who I am and love my family and get to know them. So I'm past that, if that makes sense. But do I always want my family to come to church with me? Of course I do, because I believe it and I believe that there's great things there.

Kirsten Udy [00:53:57] So this was a very personal decision from Dave. I'm thankful and I'm glad that he wants to do that. But it. And it does bring a sense of wholeness to have the whole family there for sacrament meeting. I just wanted to point out, from

David Udy [00:54:17] my perspective, the other thing I'll add is just a belief in God, right? So I don't believe in God in the context that maybe Kirsten says we wouldn't, like, explain things the same way. But it. But really it's not that the way we believe in higher power God is not that different. If you really kind of boil it down. I believe. I mean, yeah, I've kind of done the thought process of, you know, the atheist kind of thought process. I've been through that, that dialogue in my mind, a lot of times, I've never.

Spirituality Beyond Belief and Shared Values

David Udy [00:55:00] Yeah, for me, I guess I see God or higher power as being sort of interwoven into, like an atheist might say, like the universe or something. I think that maybe that's just the thumbprint that we were able to see of our higher power, of God, or however you want to name him or her. I'm not really biased anyway, in that way, but. But I think that there's a. That you can see sort of a power that's interwoven just in the way that humans interact, the way we interact with the world, the way that we interact and do things. There's just. So there's sort of an underlying power and an unseen power, things that we just can't be aware of.

David Udy [00:55:36] And I just think there's. There's something there, something way bigger than ourselves. And, you know, maybe you could say that it's unlikely or odds are there's. There's nothing after we die and it's just kind of over. But I would say it's also extremely unlikely that anything exists. I would think that. Why would anything.

David Udy [00:55:56] Just my logical brain says there should really be nothing, but yet. But there's not nothing. There's all this, you know, all this complexity and even pain and beauty and all these really sometimes difficult, sometimes really wonderful things. There's just all this. And I think that there's. There's something really big and profound and some meaning to be had and all that. And, you know, as far as the afterlife, you know, we'll see what happens, but I think I live a good life now, and I think that that will take care of it itself when, you know, when we get there.

Kirsten Udy [00:56:29] So.

David Udy [00:56:30] So I don't know, being able to relate that way. I hope that you froze up, so I hope you're there.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] I'm here. Can you see me? Okay.

David Udy [00:56:39] Being able to wait on that terms has been big for us.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Absolutely.

David Udy [00:56:44] Are you there, John? Can you hear us?

John Dehlin [00:56:45] I'm here. Can you hear me? Well, it looks like we've frozen, and I don't know what that is, but I want to. It is time for us to sort of maybe come to a close in this interview. I want to thank everyone who's been in tuning. Tuning in. There you are. Hey, Dave.

David Udy [00:57:09] Yep. Hopefully they caught all that.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] Yeah. I just wanted to say thank you guys so much for your wisdom, for your vulnerability, for your willingness to share. You know, I think the insights particularly that you gained, Dave, about emotional intimacy and the things Kirsten was talking about, about Honesty.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] You know, it's experiences like this that let people know that that in many ways is the way through. Whether it's a mixed faith marriage, whether it's addiction, alcoholism. So much of it really comes down to getting to know yourself, becoming emotionally aware of who you are and of what you're experiencing, learning to be with that and accept it.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] And then with your most important relationships, being emotionally candid and open and vulnerable. And sometimes that's the scariest thing. Sometimes it feels very risky. But in almost every case it's going to lead to healing, it's going to lead to healthier relationships, it's going to lead to growth and it's in many ways the antidote for ineffective ways of self medicating and of coping with distress.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] So David and Kirsten, I just want to let you guys know that you guys are role models to all of us for developing self awareness, for healing the broken and the difficult places, and then for being just utterly committed to your relationship with each other. Putting people before beliefs and modeling resilience, but also intimacy and healing and growth as a couple and as individuals. This is just really inspiring and I know your story is going to help a lot of people. So a sincere thanks to you both. Any final words from either of you?

John Dehlin [00:59:12] Dave, why don't you go first and then Kirsten will end with you final words about either addiction and recovery or mixed faith marriage. What do you guys want to say to those listening? Dave, you go first.

David Udy [00:59:25] Yeah, I don't have a, I don't have a lot more, but I would just echo what you were just saying. Really? Intimacy, being connected to other people, that's what this life is all about. That's where the, that's really the, I don't know, that's just the creamy core, just a wonderful thing. But you know, it can be painful and scary getting there. There are a lot of people that have very, very difficult circumstances they're dealing with. Sometimes it's close to impossible for people given what they've gone through to get there. So you know, if you, if you haven't had these kind of difficulties in life, just a boy, just a lot of understanding for people that maybe can't do it because honestly people sometimes honestly can't do it.

David Udy [01:00:17] Like they can't. And so I guess connection is just wonderful. If there's anything that you can put your effort into, that's a chance that things are going to get better, things are difficult in your life, that's where to do it. But also a lot of really A lot of understanding and empathy towards people that are not.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] That's great. Yeah. Not all marriages are meant to persist. There is such a good thing as a good divorce. That's not the point here. But I think when a relationship is fundamentally a sound one, and most importantly, when a couple or children would serve to benefit from the relationship continuing with, we just want to make sure everyone has the best shot that they can at saving the marriages that are worth saving. Kirsten, what do you want to conclude with in terms of advice or feedback from those loved ones, of those who are struggling with substance abuse or addiction? And then, most importantly, for those in mixed faith marriages, how do you want to give some final thoughts?

Closing Reflections and Words of Hope

Kirsten Udy [01:01:32] So, for me, it boils down to love. And like I said before, that we're all children of God and just embracing that. And like Dave said, you know, we can. We can have those moments where we can have an eternal glimpse or. Or an eternal perspective of a person that we're not understanding.

Kirsten Udy [01:02:05] And for me, I said in the very beginning, I believe in forgiveness. I believe in the atonement. And so there's nothing through this journey that we've been on with alcoholism and recovery where I should have thrown in the towel or even, you know, in our interfaith marriage.

Kirsten Udy [01:02:30] What we're learning together and learning to embrace as a couple, just our individuality and who we are and how God made us is just an amazing experience. And it brings a lot of hope to the future to love one another in that way.

Kirsten Udy [01:02:54] There's a. I'm a quote person, and I mentioned one of my other quotes that I really loved from Al Anon. But I'll just end my thoughts with this because it just kind of ties up how I feel and how I look at things. It says love isn't perfect. It isn't a fairy tale or a storybook. And it doesn't always come easy. Love is overcoming obstacles, facing challenges, fighting to be together, holding on, and never letting go. It is a short word, easy to spell, difficult to define, and impossible to live without. Love is work. But most of all, love is realizing every hour, every minute, every second of it was worth it because you did it together. That's what it's all about, is love. And we just need to incorporate that with everybody in our lives and love.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] Beautiful. Well, David and Kirsten, thank you so much for your beautiful stories, for your encouragement, for your words of wisdom. I know they're going to help keep some important families together and to give some people hope who are feeling hopeless right Now. So much love to you both. I can't thank you enough for being willing to come on Mormon Stories and share your story.

Kirsten Udy [01:04:24] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:04:25] Thanks to everyone who joined us today Live. We had a good audience. I want to thank everyone for participating. Please make sure and share your comments and questions. We love to have your feedback. I want to thank everyone who supports the Open Stories foundation and makes it possible. We do want to interview more mixed faith couples in the weeks and months ahead. If there are other people that also want to share stories about addiction recovery, we're interested in those stories too. But most importantly, thanks to all those who make this podcast possible. If you love what we do, if you want to see it continue,

David Udy [01:05:00] just

John Dehlin [01:05:00] 10 or $20 a month, a recurring donation, can really make the difference. So please go to MormonStories.org and support us. Shout out to all the podcasts in the Open Stories Foundation. Mormon Matters at Thoughtful Faith, Mormon Mental Health, Mormon Transitions.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] Check all those podcasts out. Thanks to Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton, our staff, for making these podcasts possible. Thanks to the osf. And again, thanks to all our donors. Please give us a positive review on Facebook. Like Mormon Stories Podcast page. Give Mormon Stories Podcast page a positive review. Please go to itunes and give us a positive review there.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] That really helps. And again, please support us if you can check out our events page@mormonstories.org events. We would love to do our part to help people transition either individually in their marriages. And our events are always rated for 4.7, 4.9 out of 5. They're rated very highly, so please check them out. All right, guys, thanks so much. Take care and we'll see you guys again soon on Mormon Stories. Love you guys.

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