Welcome and Guest Introductions

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1369

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's December 7, 2020, and today we have. I say this frequently. Today I mean it. Extra. Specially today we have an all star interview for you. And when I say stars, I really mean it. These really are stars. Today we are interviewing Heather Gay and Dre Nord of Da Da Da Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Hey, guys. Hi. Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Heather Gay [00:00:38] Thank you for having us.

Dre Nord [00:00:39] Yeah, thank you so much. This is a dream.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Are you guys delighted or terrified? Both. Both.

Dre Nord [00:00:45] Yeah, easily both.

Heather Gay [00:00:46] Easily both, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] No. So I'm going to be honest. This is my first Real Housewives experience in my life that I hope you guys aren't mad at me.

Dre Nord [00:00:58] John, it's mine, too. Is it really?

Heather Gay [00:01:01] Okay. Yeah, mine too, actually. First Real Housewives I've ever done.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] No. But, yeah, I've never seen it before, but we're four episodes into this season and it's a show for those of you who don't know Real Housewives, we'll talk about it. But it's a show where they pick around six housewives and they just. It's kind of reality tv, free for all. A lot of fun, a lot of interesting personalities, a little bit of drama. Is that fair to say?

Heather Gay [00:01:32] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:01:32] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] And covering a lot of really real and important themes. And it turns out I have a personal connection to some members of the cast this year. And I won't give any spoilers away, but I've watched four episodes. The fifth episode is coming soon, and it's going to be dealing with, you know, there are the Real Housewives of Salt Lake has several either current or former members of the LDS Church, along with some people who have never been Mormon before. But all of them right now are living in Salt Lake City. And it's kind of a little bit different for Salt Lake City, and it's different for the LDS Church to be profiled in this way. And so we are not going to be focusing on the actual show today. We're going to be focusing on the stories of Heather Gay and Dre Nord. Heather is one of the six, you know, Real Housewives, and then they're allowed to bring on their friends. In this case, Dre is a. Is business partners with Heather, and we're going to talk about that. And it's quite an inspiring story because these are resilient women who have inspiring stories as women and as entrepreneurs and on Mormon Stories podcast. It is such a real deal. We have so Many, many women who once the faith crisis happened to them or their spouses or their families, they weren't always left in the best situation. And some women are left really having to scramble and scrape to figure out what their life is going to be once their world is turned upside down. And for me, I'm most excited. You know, it's great to have celebrities in the studios, but what I'm most excited about is that we have two women who represent strength and resilience and they have inspiring stories. So that's what we're going to be talking about. Heather and Dre, they're best friends, they're business partners, and without any further ado, let's get started.

Dre Nord [00:03:36] Let's do it. We're excited.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Okay. Anything you want to correct about my intro or add or take away? No. Did we mention Bravo? Did I mention Bravo?

Heather Gay [00:03:44] Well, Real Housewives is on Bravo tv, and in the first episode, I think they said. They said the word Mormon like at least 40 times. So, you know, Mormonism is a character in the show. And it's as much as it's been. I wouldn't even say character. A current thread in the show as much as it's been, you know, the thread of my entire life. So, like, people have criticized, like, us talking too much about Mormonism, but it's informed every choice I've ever made. And so if you're gonna do a show with me on it, Mormonism is going to be a part of it.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] And let's face it, they're not gonna come to Salt Lake City and not wanna talk about Mormonism. That's like, Margi and I have watched like 10 seasons of Survivor. They love Mormons on Survivor.

Heather Gay [00:04:25] We're good at surviving, aren't we?

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Almost every episode of season of Survivor has Mormons on it. And they want you to talk about it, right?

Heather Gay [00:04:32] Yeah. Well, the truth is, Real Housewives is kind of like Survivor and minute to win it with Project Runway, like, all combined. So it's all kind of fast paced Survivor type mentality. So reality TV for what it is. You cannot have a show in Salt Lake City and not address Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Yeah. And it's good. I think it's good for our culture to have sunlight, and they say sunlight is the best disinfectant. So here we go. You guys ready?

Dre Nord [00:05:00] We're ready.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Okay, so what I want to do is we're going to tell two stories in parallel because these are best friends, these are business partners, and their stories start out separate, but then they converge and then Things get really interesting. And so what we're going to do is kind of like go through different phases of their lives and go back and forth. And then once the story emerges, then we'll just have a natural kind of one to two interview. But whose story should we start first?

Dre Nord [00:05:31] I think probably mine, because I went through my faith crisis sooner than Heather did, so that makes most sense to me. Does that work?

Heather Gay [00:05:41] Yeah. Since I'm midstream right now.

Dre Nord [00:05:43] Yes, she's midstream. She's in it. She's in the thick of it. But I think Heather and I have always. Well, first of all, let's just how we met, right? Yeah, absolutely. Because our. Both of our oldest daughters went to school together. They were best friends in elementary school. But by the time I met Heather, I was already out of the church. I was a single, divorced mom.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] And we're going to back up and tell your story. Is that okay? Okay. Okay.

Dre Nord [00:06:05] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Yeah. Okay.

Dre Nord [00:06:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Keep going.

Dre Nord [00:06:07] Okay. And so we kind of ran in different circles because Heather was the Relief Society president or Gospel doctrine teacher at the time, or both. One of those. And so we ran in different circles. And I never would have known that Heather and I had such similar upbringings and that we were so similar in just our history and the way that we see the world because we were

Heather Gay [00:06:32] so different and the way we practice our faith.

Dre Nord [00:06:34] Yeah, exactly. And I always say Heather was the exact type of Mormon that I was. I was raised. I grew up in Virginia, in Northern Virginia, right outside of D.C. but to very, very faithful, devout parents. I used to call us Fundamentalist Mormon, but now I am transitioning that to, like, more doctrinal Mormon. It was really intense. The. The kind of Mormonism that we practiced. It was very, very much based on doctrine. And I am a rule follower. And I was teasing you before, John about, you know, you've questioned things since the beginning. I didn't question. I just did what I was told and I believed it and I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] How many siblings?

Dre Nord [00:07:18] I'm the oldest of four.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] Okay.

Dre Nord [00:07:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] And I assume one of your parents was working in government somewhere.

Dre Nord [00:07:23] Yeah. So my dad, he didn't work exactly in the government, but he worked for a company that did that was contracted by the government, and that's why we ended up moving to Virginia when I was 8. We lived in Northern California and then moved to Virginia. And it was a really great place to grow up. I loved it. And I mean, we were in the same ward as John Huntsman, John Mary Kay were in our ward yeah. Jeff and Cheryl Flake. Cheryl was my mom's best friend. They were in a cute trio together and they sang at all of these, like different senate dinners and stuff. And it was just.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Jeff Flake was a senator in Arizona.

Dre Nord [00:07:53] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] He's been big in the news.

Dre Nord [00:07:55] Oh, yeah, yeah. And I actually really love Jeff. He's.

Heather Gay [00:07:58] We're going to name drop a lot. John.

Dre Nord [00:08:00] I love it. I love it. I mean, you can't. Not when you like grew up in that area. Like there's just there were, you know, everybody knows the Mormon politicians and they.

Heather Gay [00:08:08] Mormon royalty, one might say.

Dre Nord [00:08:10] Yeah, exactly.

Heather Gay [00:08:11] You know, hated on by the world.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] And I've met John and Mary Kay and they, they do listen to Mormon stories.

Dre Nord [00:08:17] Oh, well, shout out. Shout out to the Huntsman. I, I love them. And yeah, I. That was how I grew up. And. But it was a different experience, I think, growing up on the east coast as opposed to growing up in Mormon Utah. But I was very devout. I was early morning seminary, seminary president. Like all of the things. I'm probably the last person that any of my friends or any of the ward members would have thought could ever leave the church.

Growing Up Mormon: Family and Faith

John Dehlin [00:08:48] What were the types of typical Mormon things that your family did? You know, there's always the scripture study in the evening.

Heather Gay [00:08:55] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] You guys do all that stuff.

Dre Nord [00:08:56] Yeah. But we, But I feel like my parents took it to the next level. We were only Motab, like when we were on Sunday. On Sundays. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:09:04] For the full official name Mormon Tabernacle Choir, if you don't mind.

Dre Nord [00:09:08] You know, we. We didn't change out of our church clothes on Sundays. Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] That's intense.

Dre Nord [00:09:16] Yeah. And. But like, I had the rule of, like, I couldn't go on a date with the same person more than twice. But more than that, I was just heavily.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] You gotta explain that.

Dre Nord [00:09:25] So I couldn't.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] This is all over. This is Utah too. Why would your parents not let you go out there?

Dre Nord [00:09:29] Because they did not want us. And specifically me because I had two younger brothers between me and my youngest sister. And so I was the only girl for a while. And I think there was a lot of concern that I guess I would like meet a boy and maybe have sex. I never would have, but they just didn't want me to have a boyfriend because they just, you know, love chastity.

Heather Gay [00:09:54] That's.

Dre Nord [00:09:54] It was just too slippery of a slope. And so I was allowed to go on a date with the same boy twice. And then I would have to go out with someone Else.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Can I just say, as someone with a psychology PhD, that's a tiny bit unhealthy for me. Because if you want to have a successful marriage, you need to learn about emotional intimacy. And to learn about emotional intimacy, you have to develop a medium to a long term relationship and understand each other, learn to care about each other, learn to communicate. And if you're always chopping up those relationships until you go to BYU and then you marry the first RM you meet or University of Utah, wherever you go, then you actually get married, never developing some skills of just basic emotional intimacy. Now, I don't want to, you know, fill in your story.

Dre Nord [00:10:37] No, but fun fact, I did marry my first boyfriend.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Okay?

Dre Nord [00:10:40] So, yeah, I mean, so I guess it worked, mom and dad, but. But we did find, like, great ways to get around that. Like my boyfriend, my second boyfriend in high school and I married the first. But my second boyfriend in high school, he had a good. Who was gay, but he hadn't come out yet. But like, I would always go out with him because he was like just our fun, like, ballroom dance best friend. And so I would go out with my boyfriend twice and then I'd go out with our fun friend and just check the box, you know, and that's how we got around it.

Heather Gay [00:11:16] And let's hear the law, not spirit of the law.

Dre Nord [00:11:18] Kids are creative, you guys. But yeah, just. We were. But more than that, like, you know, of course we didn't play sports on Sunday, which was big on the east coast, because.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Were you into sports?

Dre Nord [00:11:29] Yeah, but my, my brothers were more. I played softball and my brothers played baseball and soccer. And it was, that was tough because we would have to initially tell our coaches, like, oh, we can't. We don't play on Sundays. We're Mormon. That's just not gonna happen for us. And I don't know if people in Utah have that same experience. Probably not, but, you know, it was just part of my whole life. And all of my friends were just the girls in my ward. I was incredibly shy, and so I didn't really have a lot of friends in school. And I heavily relied on the church for everything, for my social circle. My best friend and I sat on the Interfaith Youth Council of D.C. we were the two Mormon representatives all through high school. And that was a wonderful experience. I loved being the Mormon representative for that because I was able to be exposed to, you know, different religions and different cultures, but also kind of push my own agenda and it fed my need to be right. And I was able To. Even though I appreciated seeing everything else, it just reaffirmed my faith that, like, this is the right way, this is it. And I remember having a conversation with my friend who was on the council with me, and she said something to me like, oh, don't you think it's so sad that, like, they seem so happy, but they just don't even know. They don't know the truth. And that was truly how I felt. And I felt a little sadness too, of, gosh, you know, I have it all. I have all of the secrets. And these people are so good, they're so wonderful, but they don't know what I know. And that was very much the type of Mormon that I was.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] I'll just jump in. I grew up in Texas, in Houston, Texas. But I know a lot about these Maryland and Virginia Mormon wards. They're a lot of powerful, kind, you know, important, good people. So these Virginia and Maryland wards are very strong. You know, Marriotts are there, Huntsmans are there, Orrin Hatch is there. You know, it's like political royalty, Harry Reid, you know, all these people. And then. But, but the wards, number one, it's so cool to feel so special. You're in, you know, Utah calls it abroad or in the Mission field.

Heather Gay [00:13:44] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] And that means outside of Utah. And. But so you're in these really powerful, fast moving places, but you feel special and better than everybody. And it gives you this sense of a little bit of persecution, but also of superiority where you're in the minority, but you're better than everybody. And then you've just got these intense, high functioning wards with a lot of affluent families, great activities, great youth programs, and they're amazing. It really is an amazing way to grow up. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Dre Nord [00:14:17] Oh, absolutely. I loved it. I wouldn't have traded it for the world. And it was actually quite a culture shock. When I moved to Utah my senior year of high school. It was actually devastating because the church was so different here and the social aspect of it was so different here because I was, of course, like I said, I was really, really shy, but I was very nervous about moving to a new school when I was 17 years old and just barely coming into my own. And then I just kept thinking, okay, I'm gonna have the girls in my ward, I'll have the girls in my ward. And I didn't have the girls in my ward. It was totally different. We moved to Alpine.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] And before you graduated?

Dre Nord [00:14:55] Before I graduated, yeah, we moved to Alpine. So I did my senior year at Lone peak the year it opened.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] What a, what a culture shock.

Dre Nord [00:15:03] It was a real culture shock. And it was hard. It was, it was really tough on me.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] What's the difference? How would you describe the difference between Alpine high schools and Virginia high school?

Dre Nord [00:15:11] Well, first of all, it was all white people.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:15:14] That was the biggest thing. Like, I grew up in a predominantly Arab and Persian area of Northern Virginia.

Heather Gay [00:15:21] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:15:21] And so I was used to a lot of diversity and I was used to being special because everyone did know that I was the Mormon. Like, there were only 13 or 14 of us, I think, at our high school, it was a smaller high school for that area. And we kind of, everybody knew that that's what we were. And we didn't party and we went to early morning seminary and all of those things. And then. And that was so much of my identity. That was my identity. And so when I came to Utah, I didn't have that anymore. So I was like, well, what am I?

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Because I'm just like everybody else.

Dre Nord [00:15:55] I'm like everyone else. And I. I truly did. It really was like, I'll have the girls in my ward because those were my best friends, even if they didn't go to my high school. Because our ward pulled from like three different high schools in Virginia. In Virginia. Yeah. Then when I moved to Utah, I was like, okay, well, at least I'll. I'll have some built in friends. And I really didn't. I had to fend for myself.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Words can be clicky.

Dre Nord [00:16:16] Oh, and my ward, it was rough.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] A lot of these Utah areas have had families living for generations in the same ward. And so everybody you have, you got your set of friends. They're even sometimes girls and maybe even boys can be really protective about who's in the clique and who's not.

Heather Gay [00:16:34] And I know parents are super protective. Yeah, absolutely. Like, who is that? I don't know her.

Dre Nord [00:16:41] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] And it can leave your kids. And my kids got this really bad because here I am, a Mormon podcaster in Utah, and the parents are like, I don't know, stay away from him. And so our kids often felt excluded in their own ward, and it was kind of sad.

Dre Nord [00:16:54] So, yeah, I definitely experienced that. And Alpine's no exception to that as far as, like, legacy families that have been there forever and they all already had their friends and their grandparents grew up together and all of those things. And I think Alpine's different now, but just because it's grown so much. But, you know, in the late 90s, that, that was my Reality. So that's kind of how I grew up. Do you want me to kick it to Heather and she can fill in her growing up?

John Dehlin [00:17:21] I'll ask you a little bit more about your upbringing, but after. So let's bring Heather in, have you do the same thing. Take us up to just painting the picture of kind of your upbringing, and then we're going to jump back and talk about any, like, big, dramatic things that happened in high school or college, and we'll kind of go back and forth. So, Heather, give us kind of the same background from your perspective.

Heather's Childhood and Mormon Upbringing

Heather Gay [00:17:43] Okay. I grew up in, for the most part, in Denver, Colorado, and my parents were both absolutely devout, committed, creative, cool Mormons. You know, and we. My identity was very much one of, like, a superiority, you know, we were Mormons. And we were not only Mormons, we were cool Mormons. You know, we were beautiful Mormons. We were successful Mormons. We were like three kids, six kids.

Dre Nord [00:18:09] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] And you were in the Brooklyn.

Heather Gay [00:18:10] I'm the middle daughter, so I'm the third child. And I'm the second daughter, so there's three boys and three girls.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] And your maiden name, Are you able. Are you okay? Sure.

Heather Gay [00:18:18] Yes.

Dre Nord [00:18:18] Deans.

Heather Gay [00:18:19] Heather Deans.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Deans, yeah. And what did your parents do? Work with.

Heather Gay [00:18:22] So my dad, he had had a background in government and worked for the FBI. I was born in California. He was at the language institute in Monterey.

Dre Nord [00:18:31] Oh, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:18:31] That's amazing. And did kind of cool things, you know, like Russian espionage. Then he, like, parlayed that into a Bureau of Land management. He discovered Indian artifacts. He was just a cool guy. And then he had. Had then, like, transitioned into an oil and gas company. And that's what we were. He primarily did when we were in Colorado. And I grew up, you know, I thought I grew up superior, for sure. I felt wealthy. I felt sad for people that weren't Mormon. I remember his business partner at one point was trying to adopt a child. They were struggling with infertility. And I don't know the context of it, but I remember we brought them over. We sang as I have loved you. We are hooking them up with LDS social Services. And I just remember thinking. And I was probably 10, maybe nine, you know, thinking, I feel so bad for them. You know, I felt bad for anyone. And I thought, they're going to see our family, they're going to feel our love. They're going to feel the same spirit, and they're gonna be like, teach me more. You know, that's how I approached everything. Kind of like I was,

Dre Nord [00:19:37] you know,

Heather Gay [00:19:38] advertising the church by the idyllic childhood I had.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Every member a missionary, right?

Dre Nord [00:19:44] Every member of missionary, especially in the mission field that is like, I think mission field, right. Like we can all identify with that at least. I totally can.

Heather Gay [00:19:52] Totally. I mean, it was my whole world. My best friends were Mormon, you know, my dad was my soccer coach, my sister was seminary president. We, I remember like my mom, my little brother was born while, you know, at. He's 10 years younger than me. And I remember it was a Sunday and my dad had taken us all to church and he wanted to stop at like El Pollo Loco on the way home. And I as a child was thrilled, you know. Cause we're getting like takeout food on a Sunday. But I also had a pit in my stomach, you know, because this meant, you know, we're cracking the seal. And I have moments like that when I remember, like, I remember one time my dad like hit his thumb with a hammer or something, like very cartoonish. And he said God bless it. And I thought I was.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] God bless it? Yeah, like anger.

Heather Gay [00:20:42] Yeah, God bless it. And I was like, I was sick.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] Cause Mormons.

Heather Gay [00:20:47] What Mormons don't take the name of the Lord in vain. And that was akin to me of like seeing my dad hanging up the phone with another woman. I mean, that's the level of emotional reaction I had to any aberration in the script. And we did early morning scripture study as a family. And when they came out on cassette tape, my mom would press play on the cassette tape and she'd be like dry heaving. Cause she was pregnant, you know, but had a hot breakfast and we'd have to follow along on our Books of Mormon as it went around the room. And you know, it was like 6am and I hated it, but I loved it because makes you feel cool, like strong and valued and safe, you know, and structured. And I, I loved it. And I, I, you know, I felt like they were doing everything right. And you know, I just felt special and lucky, I guess would probably be the term. And then the oil and grass, the oil and gas market kind of crashed. And my dad had developed other businesses, franchises. And he had the opportunity to extend those franchises in Utah. And I knew my, I'd always spent summers with my cousins. I had seen all of my relatives were in Utah still. And so When I was 15, my family moved from Denver to Salt Lake City. And I had attended Academy for Girls at BYU in the summer. And I had met a couple girls. Well, I had met one Specific girl that lived on Walker Lane. And I remember Walker Lane because my parents, when we sat at, like, the banquet at the end of, like, the camp, they sat. You know, we sat together. Cause we were friends. And my parents met this, her parents, and they said, oh, where do you live in Utah? And they said, walker Lane. And my parents immediately recognized it and knew what it was. So I was like, oh, locker room.

Dre Nord [00:22:32] That's pretty cool.

Heather Gay [00:22:34] And we ended up moving into that same junior high boundary. And my first day of school, I came back and I was just being, like, led through the school, you know, by a guide, another student guide that was clearly not going to be my friend, you know, but I was going to have this happen. And then my friend Amy from Academy for Girls and EFY came running out and was like, Heather. And we had this, like, reunion. And she was, you know, one of, like, the five families, you know, she was in that circle of elite Mormon wealthy families. And she lockered. She had me locker with her. She had me forget everything that the student guide had taught me. And I was immediately kind of. I mean, what would be, like, embraced by this group of really elite Mormon women?

Dre Nord [00:23:21] And.

Heather Gay [00:23:22] And I remember later my dad told me that he had had a conversation. He had friends and connections here. He had gone to high school at Highland in Salt Lake. So he had contacted some of his friends when he was franchised in the business to find out who he should employ. And, you know, it was always like, who knows who? And he. I remember him asking his friend, who didn't have a daughter my age, like, who should Heather be friends with? And he said, well, if she's friends with Margaret, you're golden. If she's friends with Kristen, you gotta worry. And I was friends with both of them because they were both in the same group. And this was my first introduction to kind of wolves in sheep's clothing. I did not know Mormons that didn't live it. I didn't know them. I didn't know they existed. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] And when you say didn't live it, tell the audience what you mean by that.

Heather Gay [00:24:14] Mormons that smoked and drank when they weren't at church. Mormons that, you know, drink coffee. Drink coffee and just didn't tell anybody. Mormons that didn't attend the temple or didn't care to attend the temple. Mormons that, you know, lived in the gray. My dad was the head of security when the Denver Temple was dedicated. And it was this big thing that he would drive the prophet. And we all got to be in the celestial room for the dedication of that temple. And that was, you know, I mean, we were, we were cool Mormons and my dad was cool and funny and, you know, awesome. And they lived it as much as I know they lived it. And so coming to Utah was my first kind of foray into people that did it for the culture, but didn't live it because they believed it. And that was both thrilling for me as a teenager and also, you know, terrifying because what's real, you know, and I had a proclivity to all of the things not Mormon. So it was scary to me that I could walk that line and still show up with these esteemed Mormons on Sunday and nobody was the wiser.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] You know, these are called Utah Mormons. Utah Mormons are Mormons that maybe are in it for the culture, but not really in it. And oftentimes this is going to sound weird, but the most devout Mormons are the ones who are living in the mission field. And I got to say, it's so bizarre that Utah is Utah and the rest of the world is the mission field. So when we say the mission field, we mean everywhere in the world but Utah. But sometimes the Mormons outside of Utah are just way more into it than the ones, the ones here. And that makes sense, right? It's just, it's so pervasive. It's like swimming in the water, right?

Heather Gay [00:26:08] Yeah. I'd be like, well, wait a second, I thought they were Mormon. They're like, well, they are. What do you mean he went up her shirt?

Dre Nord [00:26:14] You know what I mean?

Heather Gay [00:26:15] Like, things like that. He went up her shirt. You know, like, what do you mean they were drinking? You know, like in eighth grade, I had a friend ask me to smuggle a beer on our Washington D.C. trip. And I was so naive. I opened the beer and I poured it into. I took a shampoo bottle, poured it out. I mean, I was a cool friend, you know, I was like, well, I'm not going to partake. But I opened a beer and. And I poured into a shampoo bottle, screwed the lid back on and took it in my suitcase for a four day trip. And then was like, who wants a beer? And you know, unscrewed. You know, it's like I just had no concept of anything. I was just, I was, yeah, that was my story. So I, you know, I came to Utah when I was 15.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] And so when we talk about Walker Lane, I just have to say Mormon Story Studios is in Holiday, Utah. I live in Holiday, Utah. It's Kind of like east bench, southeast of Salt Lake city, but maybe 10 minutes away. 10, 15 minutes away from Salt Lake City. Kind of more up against the mountains. And this is kind of like one of the really elite areas of Mormonism in Holiday. I understand it that some of the Mitt Romney lives here now. So, like, Mitt Romney could have lived anywhere in Utah. When he moves to Utah, he moves to Holiday. Right. Some of the stakes in Holiday are the most wealthy stakes in the entire church. So a lot of old money, a lot of really super nice homes. And Walker Lane is this lane where you follow it. There's also a wander lane too. But I mean, yeah, just gorgeous homes, old money.

Heather Gay [00:27:45] Yeah. Like this, the cheapest home on Walker Lane. Even it was just a lot would be over, you know, millions of dollars.

Dre Nord [00:27:52] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] Yeah. Yeah. Big money.

Heather Gay [00:27:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Okay. Okay. So do I get the sense then that you as a teenager struggled with the rules or kind of played with the rules and the boundaries?

Heather Gay [00:28:06] Yeah. More wild than I asked, for? Sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:28:08] Talk about that. Well, I was just, you know, I was. I was a wild child. What were the rules? Well, the rules were you didn't drink, you didn't smoke, you didn't swear, you didn't kiss boys, you didn't date boys, really, you know, you didn't. You weren't immoral, you. Immoral meaning like, you know, anything below this Mason Dixon line, John.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] Which is why for me, it was below the neck.

Dre Nord [00:28:36] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:28:36] He wouldn't let anybody touch your body. You wouldn't ever feel the stirrings of sexual desire. You know, you kissed, but, like, you kept it clean. And I, you know, you just kind of followed the Norman Rockwell courting rules. You know, like, he picks you up, he brings a corsage, you go on a date, he, you know, opens the door, he brings you home. And like, I was kind of thrust in this world where that wasn't happening for me at least, you know, And I just wanted. Which high school I went to? Olympus Olympus Junior and then Olympus High. And I just wanted to kind of experience anything and everything. But I still knew that, like, no matter what I did, I had to come home and be Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] So was it duplicitous? Were you doing things in secret and just not telling?

Heather Gay [00:29:28] Yeah, absolutely duplicitous.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] What were the things you were doing? If you want to share.

Heather Gay [00:29:31] Yeah. Well, I mean, I was like, I would go to a party where there's jungle juice in an igloo, you know, and I would drink it like, jungle juice is like, fruit punch and I don't know, like, ever clear. Yeah, ever clear. Like, whatever kinds of alcohol they could find. Because we.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] You know, these were Mormons hosting the.

Heather Gay [00:29:47] Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I think I was, like, even able to. Because I was with my Mormon friends. And this was a little bit of a different context for my parents. Here I was friends with the. With the right. Friends with the right girls, with the right people, and I don't think they even wanted to, like, look under the covers.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] You know, I just have to say, when. When you. When you. When your parents and you live outside of Utah and you decide to move to Utah, unless you know better, you're thinking, man, we've got a grade out in the mission field. But when we move to Utah, it's going to be, like, the best Mormons, and our kids will be the most righteous and the most faithful, and. And I guess your parents found that maybe it was the opposite.

Heather Gay [00:30:24] It was the opposite. You know, I never really ever had an open conversation with them about anything. Like, I would never.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] They didn't want to know.

Heather Gay [00:30:32] They didn't want to know, and I did not want to tell them. And it wasn't like, hey, I'm really struggling. Like, these kids that you think are, like, it's so great. I'm friends with them because their dad's the stake president. He's in their authority. And, you know, they're wealthy and they're beautiful, and they're all Mormon, and they're all married, and none of them are from, heaven forbid, a broken home or, you know, any other faith. You know, my friends were solid, wonderful Mormon families. And so it was kind of. At first, it was an opportunity for me to, like, get away with things, you know, under the blanket of, like, so jungle juice.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] What are the other things?

Heather Gay [00:31:08] Jungle? I mean, we used to go to Geppetto's up on Murray Holiday Road and buy cigarettes from the vending machine. And, like, we didn't even know, though. I didn't ever. I smoked one time, and it was a pack of Camel, unfiltered, and I was sick in the gutter. Like, I thought I was going to die. I thought I had overdosed because it was a cigarette, and I was revoltingly sick, and that was, like, my only experience with that. And I just was experimenting with things because I was able to for the first time, and my sister never did, and I assumed that my brother never did either. And so I. I felt tremendous guilt. But the only reason I did it is because I could do it and still be Mormon. You know, I would not have done this and been like with the wrong crowd in Colorado and I probably would.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Meaning with Mormons. Yeah, with Mormons it's. With Mormons, if you sin with non Mormons, it's bad. But if you sin with Mormons, if

Heather Gay [00:32:10] you sin with Mormons, then we're still, we're all toeing the line is what I like to say. Like, I'm still showing up for class, I'm still showing up for, you know, seminary. My family isn't having any public embarrassment or shame or humiliation because the kids

John Dehlin [00:32:26] are in on it.

Heather Gay [00:32:26] Because we're all in on it. We're all secretive and we're all coming home and my world didn't shatter. You know, I really used to believe that if I took one sip of alcohol or I made out with a boy that hadn't taken me on six dates, you know, like I was. My parents would see it and feel it and know it, and I would be absolutely devastating them and bringing shame onto the family.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Right. What about in your prayers with, with Heavenly Father? Because if you're living a double life and your parents don't know, but you, you know, you're having fun, you're still encouraged to pray and you're encouraged to repent and, you know, you're taught about the law of chastity and. Which is don't have sex or anything like it. Word of wisdom. No alcohol, no drugs, no tobacco, no coffee, no tea. What about when you're praying? Heavenly Father, he knows. Right, Right. Did that even. Did you do prayers like that?

Heather Gay [00:33:21] Yeah, well, we had family prayer every single night and every single morning. And my personal prayers were, you know, I, I did all the things like I did personal progress. I was writing in my journal and when I look back at my journals, you know, they were pretty much just the journals of a, of a 14, 15 year old girl. You know, they weren't overly spiritual. But I remember the pivotal moment I had that was kind of for me. I was attending this friend from Walker Lane. Her older sister, who was 19 at the time, got married and I was attending her wedding reception. And I was kind of, you know, in that, in between, duplicitous phase of life. And, you know, we, we thought we were rebels, but it was few and far between that we ever got our hands on anything that was, you know, worthwhile. But I was definitely toeing the line, you know, just like what, like whatever it's called, walking the line. And I remember I went into this Little. They had that little chapel offside where they show the video with all the songs, and it was of her, like, being embraced and in front of the temple. And I was. I sat in there alone. It was maybe, you know, three, four minute video. And I thought, okay, this is what I want, and this is what I've always wanted. But I just thought I had to, like, you know, diminish myself, to have the fun or to be part of the group or to have the boy like me. But what I really want is this. And I'm going.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] Meaning.

Heather Gay [00:34:50] Meaning I want a celestial marriage. I want a temple marriage. I want to be a virgin on my wedding day. I want to have a man, you know, put me on that little cement riser with the temple behind me.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] Virtual missionary.

Dre Nord [00:35:04] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:35:04] And I want a beautiful, eternal family founded on the principles that I was raised with. And that's all I want. And that is, you know, and I want it honestly. And I made a huge, like, shift in. It was the somewhere I'd have to look at when she got married. But it was around my junior year, and I ditched kind of all of my friends that were anything. And then the other friends that were like, the good families, we kind of all started being good. And so my senior year, I feel like I was like a true, true Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:35:38] And it was because of. I remember that moment. It was like I made the conscious choice to live worthy of what I was working for.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Yeah. Yeah. And Mormonism, it's really. It feels, you know, it's either feels really good to be the pure one that doesn't ever mess up, or it feels really good to be kind of the. The repentant one, the prodigal child, the Alma, the younger, as we call it, the Saul on the road to Damascus that has that. That kind of like reawakening. And then you commit yourself to righteousness.

Heather Gay [00:36:07] Yeah. And I never repented. I never told anyone. I never told my bishop. I never told my parents.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:36:11] I never did anything fundamental. I could never even say it out

John Dehlin [00:36:15] loud that I avoided the shame train.

Heather Gay [00:36:17] I avoided. I avoided accountability. Or it wasn't like, I'm going to feel good again. It was just like, I'm going to live the way I'm professing I live.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Okay. This is great. So, Dre, let's come back to you. How did you manage, like, the. The rules and the friends and the righteousness and even the spirituality part, you know, in parallel to.

Education, Ambitions, and BYU

Dre Nord [00:36:42] So I, I. It's so Funny, because we have so many parallels, but, like, that kind of a streak of rebellion I don't relate to at all. I was terrified of ever being that person. I never would have been. And so I just. I was straight arrow as they come. And I remember I. Even after I graduated high school, I had a boyfriend, and he was in my ward, and he, like, touched my boob over my shirt. And I broke up with him that night and said, you don't honor your priesthood. I can never be with someone like you. And that was. I mean, so that was. That was my reality. Like, I didn't know anything about anything. And I wasn't curious. I didn't want to know. I just wanted to follow the rules and be a good girl and have my temple marriage. I had sent a boyfriend off on a mission, my first boyfriend from Virginia. And he had stayed in Virginia, obviously, and I had moved, but that was my thing. I was like, he's going on his mission. I'm just gonna be home. I'm gonna go to school and wait for him to get home, and we're gonna get married, and that's gonna be my life. I didn't want anything else. I didn't want to experiment with anything. I just wanted to be the best Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] So I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm gonna ask Heather also after we're done with this little segment. But what about dreams for yourself regarding education or career? Because we know the family dream of being like, the housewife, the house. Lots of big families, you know, celestial marriage. What about education, your talents and your dreams and a potential career?

Dre Nord [00:38:25] So, I mean, that's what's actually probably the most devastating thing about this story is I really didn't have any. I think I always knew I was smart. I was the smartest kid in my family, and I always got good grades, and I was talented. And I was always told that by teachers. I was in, you know, the Gifted Intelligent program at school. I always excelled, but it was never what was first, and it was never really even part of what I wanted to do. And it's funny because, I mean, I've always been an entrepreneur. I had my first business when I was 19, when I had sent my missionary off.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] And what was that?

Heather Gay [00:39:04] A girlfriend.

Dre Nord [00:39:05] And I had a vintage clothing store in Provo on Center Street. And my dad was teaching at BYU at the time. He was teaching entrepreneurship. And I talked him into letting me do this business. If you'd give me the money. I think it was like $2,000. If he would give me the money. Yeah. And I would. And I promised that I would take his class at byu, and that was kind of our deal. And it's so funny because I never took it seriously. Here I was, 19. Like, I think of now, like, my daughter, 17. If she came to me and wanted to do a business, I would be like, what? This is amazing. Like, absolutely. And for me, it was like, oh, this is just a fun hobby. Like, this is what I'm gonna do while my missionary is in Canada. And so it was just a fun thing that I did. It was never something that I considered that I would, long term, ever be an entrepreneur. The end goal was to be a mom and to be a wife, stay at home mom.

Heather Gay [00:40:06] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:40:06] And I think back on, you know, what kind of school I probably could have gone to, and I never considered it. It was, you know, of course I wanted to go to school, but it was like, I'm gonna go to school until John gets home. And that's. That was just my plan, you know, and there are a lot of things I look back on and think, you know, and even when I first got married to my first boyfriend, we lived on the East coast. We lived in D.C. and he had an opportunity to have an internship for the Department of Treasury. His dad was high up in the government and got him that internship. He also got me an internship at my dream job, the Smithsonian. And that was absolutely. I was obsessed with ancient culture and museums, and if I ever were going to, heaven forbid, have a job or a career, that's what I wanted to do. And we figured it out with the finances. His was an unpaid internship, and so was mine. And one of us had to let it go. So who do you think let it go? You're gonna break my heart. I let it go. I know. And I became Smithsonian. The kicker is that he went to the internship for two weeks and decided it wasn't for him, but he didn't. Couldn't tell me. And so then he didn't ever continue his internship. And he actually. We got in big trouble for this. But he would actually walk with me to the Metro station. I would go to my secretary job. I was doing front desk at somebody that, you know, had hooked me up with a job in the ward. And he would pretend to take the metro into D.C. to the treasury, but he had given up the internship. And instead of. Would go home and meet the missionaries in our ward, and they would play video games. And once. And I didn't even know. And once our bishop found out about

John Dehlin [00:42:04] it because he was afraid to tell you.

Dre Nord [00:42:05] He was afraid to tell me. Yeah. And so that was like the. Even. The kicker is, once we got called into the bishop's office, it was so embarrassing and just horrifying. You know, you can't be having the missionaries over to play video games. And I was like, what? How do you have time to do that? I thought you were at your internship. And no, turns out it just wasn't a good fit. I didn't like it. And I'm like, okay, well, I could have been doing the job of my dreams. But you know what? I don't even think I really had that much resentment. I think I just accepted it and was like, well, that's not your role and you're my role.

Heather Gay [00:42:42] It's your beautiful wife.

Dre Nord [00:42:43] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I do. Those are like. Heather and I talk a lot on our podcast about sliding door moments. And it's like those. If you made the train or not, you know, how would your life be different? Or if you did this or not, how would that be different? Yeah. And like, for us, that's like, absolutely. One of my sliding door moments had I just dug in and said, no, my career is important too, and what I want to do with my education is important too.

Heather Gay [00:43:09] But that wasn't even a thought.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] No.

Dre Nord [00:43:11] It wasn't even a discussion. Yeah, it was. That's. That's not the priority. What I do with my education was absolutely not the priority. Even though in hindsight, I was much better equipped to get my education and to do that internship and all of those things.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:43:31] You know.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] Yeah. There are certain ways where I think it's fair to say Mormonism has gotten better with time. But my mom, my grandma, you know, my sisters, I'm older and they were older than me. They were all taught your job, one or two years of college the most. But your job is to get married as soon as possible and start having babies. And a four year degree is kind of a waste. Now, that's my. My sisters and my mom and my grandma. You guys are younger than me. And that's still going on today. Like, not always, but a lot of. A lot of our culture is still that way. And that's just kind of mind blowing. That that's not a thing of the 50s or the 60s, but that's like the 2000s and 2000s and even now 2000s.

Heather Gay [00:44:16] I think now we're just cage year about how we cloak it, cloak the messages we give our daughters, you know, because I'M the only girl or the only daughter in my family to have graduated from college, and.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Okay, so tell your story that way about dreams for yourself. We'll go back and forth, so. Dreams for yourself. Oh, did you want to finish something?

Dre Nord [00:44:35] Can I go to the bathroom? Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] It was so fun, but we're going to keep going.

Heather Gay [00:44:38] I'll just tell my version while you go.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Yeah, you.

Dre Nord [00:44:40] You go. So sorry.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] No, it's good. It's good.

Dre Nord [00:44:43] I've had three children.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] It's to the left.

Heather Gay [00:44:48] So kind of similar to Dre, I was, you know, I knew I was smart. I knew I was good at school. I tested really well. I had, you know, average grades because it was not that big of a deal.

Dre Nord [00:45:05] And then I.

Heather Gay [00:45:06] But I was also really good at playing the piano, and so I got a piano scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] You haven't played on the show yet, have you? Have you played?

Heather Gay [00:45:12] I played in, like, a home tour, just, like, a little ditty, but, you know, I've lost a lot of it because you lose most of your gifts when you dedicate everything to a family. But, yeah, I got a scholarship to the University of Utah because I auditioned. I had a piano teacher who was on faculty at the University of Utah, so it made sense for me to audition for their piano department. That I also kind of auditioned with byu, too, and the University of Utah gave me a big scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Nice. Those are competitive.

Heather Gay [00:45:44] Yeah, it was exciting and thrilling. And then BYU gave me, like, a talent award, which was, you know, a nominal amount, a couple hundred bucks every semester, but you had to take eight hours of music credits and do all these things. And I assumed my parents would want me to go where I got the scholarship. I just assumed that it was just like, it's money, you know, it's this. It's honorable, its status. And they were pretty adamant that I did not attend the University of Utah. And this is when. This is, like, the biggest sliding driver,

John Dehlin [00:46:15] because why talk about that rivalry and what that means?

Heather Gay [00:46:18] They would say, well, they both went to Utah State and the University of Utah. So they. Neither of them attended byu, but they. I lived in Holiday, and if I was going to be a piano major at the University of Utah, it made more sense for me to live at home where I had a piano, where I had access to practice, where I could commute to class, rather than renting a piano practice room and living on campus and having kind of that collegiate experience. And so my parents approached me and basically said, we'll give you the money of your scholarship. We'll pay for everything. Like, you had the scholarship if you choose to go to byu.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Because.

Heather Gay [00:46:58] Because what they said was, because, you know, my parents are very cool people. I don't. I mean, they, they had friends of all faiths. You know, they were missionaries. They were, you know, setting up people with LDs, social services. They were cool. And they, I think they. I almost feel like now looking back, like they just didn't want to say the backward dumbass thing, you know, so they said, we want you to have that experience of living away, not living at home nice and not, you know, we want you to have the experience of going away to school and we want you to go to byu.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] So I thought what you were going to say is that because BYU is the Lord's university. Because in my Mormon world, growing up, like, the University of Utah was viewed as rebellious Utah State. And I've got nine years of grad school at Utah State. I love the Aggies. But there was this perception that Utah State was kind of the farmer school

Heather Gay [00:47:50] or the Partier school, like the bad party school.

Dre Nord [00:47:52] Totally.

Heather Gay [00:47:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] But the BYU was where the righteous, faithful Mormons go. It was called the Lord's University.

Heather Gay [00:48:00] It is the Lord's University.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] But that wasn't why your parents wanted you to.

Heather Gay [00:48:03] Well, that's what they said to me. But they were. I knew we were BYU fans. I mean, even though I never even made the connection that they hadn't attended BYU because we were devout BYU fans. I remember one year, sixth grade, Mrs. Utavitz's class. For Halloween I went as a BYU fan. And I was so, for Halloween, so insulated and so naive to what that represented to the world. I thought BYU was like Auburn or Michigan or Ohio State. And I wrote BYU with a sharpie on these white. I wore my dad's BYU jacket. I wore a BYU hat. I didn't realize. And I kind of cringe now thinking back. Like I walked through that parade, like just blatant Mormonism, billboard style.

Dre Nord [00:48:43] Billboard style.

Heather Gay [00:48:43] And with zero shame, zero even awareness of what BYU was.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] When I went to byu, we like to think of it as the Harvard of the west, but I think only BYU thinks of it that way. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:48:58] And I think there was some status

John Dehlin [00:49:00] there for my family, for Berkeley or 10 other schools.

Heather Gay [00:49:04] Not.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] BYU is a good school, though. It's a. Academically, it's a very good school.

Heather Gay [00:49:08] Yeah, BYU wasn't great for me.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Oh, okay. Okay. All right.

Heather Gay [00:49:12] I mean, I studied.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Why not? Why not?

Heather Gay [00:49:14] Well, I chose my major was humanities because I knew I wanted I had had a teacher in fifth grade say, you should be an attorney. You are quick and you're a great debater. That's fifth grade, Mr. Johnson. No, it was Mr. Poole. Thank you. Mr. Pool cut off his fourth finger in a lawnmower, too. But Mr. Poole and I, that had stuck with me because that's. Now that I look back with an adult perspective, in hindsight, you know, no one ever mentioned a career to me.

Dre Nord [00:49:44] Yeah. It's not something that we are taught.

Heather Gay [00:49:47] No one had ever said you would be a great lawyer. No one said.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Are you getting emotional about that? Yeah. Why?

Heather Gay [00:49:52] Because. Why did I always think I should be a lawyer? Why did I should have been a lawyer? Because Mr. Freaking Pool said that to me when I did a mock debate, you know, and I was 10.

Dre Nord [00:50:03] Why are we not saying those things to our daughters all the time?

Heather Gay [00:50:06] Why is that the only time I remember someone saying, you'd be a great lawyer? So I studied humanities because I would tell people, oh, because it would be great launch into, you know, law school. I studied humanities because I thought it'd make me a cooler mom, more evolved. Art, music, language. My sister got married, you know, a year, like a semester to BYU. She was engaged, you know, never went back.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] 19 years old. Like, 19 years old.

Heather Gay [00:50:31] Yeah. She was married at 19. I knew. I knew that. And I knew how happy that made my parents. There was not a moment where they're like, she's so young. She needs to finish her degree. She found a guy. Seems like. He seems to like you. He's a righteous Mormon. Huge wedding, you know.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] Yours?

Heather Gay [00:50:52] No, my sister. This is my sister. I was a sophomore.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Okay, no, keep going, keep going.

Heather Gay [00:50:56] So, you know, I just knew that, like, you go to BYU because that's the greatest dating pool on the planet. To get your Mrs. To get your Mrs. To meet a man and to get married. And as much as we never said it out loud, I mean, I knew it. We all knew it. And if I didn't know it before I went to byu, I knew it two weeks in that my role there was not to, like, you know, prepare to, like, go, enter to learn and go forth and serve. Like it was. It was like, get married, enter to

John Dehlin [00:51:28] learn, go forth to have babies.

Dre Nord [00:51:29] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:51:30] And find your. And start your life. I wasn't starting my life as a college student. I was basically having, like, putting myself in the target rich environment to get married and to progress as a woman and as a member of the church. And the only way to do that, under the guise of Mormonism is to get married and to have children. And so I knew that, and that was just kind of always hanging over me. And I didn't get asked out ever. BYU.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Were you in the dorms your freshman year?

Heather Gay [00:52:01] I was in. I lived in heritage halls in Fugal Hall. Cause I.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] You made your own food.

Heather Gay [00:52:05] Made my own food. And I thought it was like I was so independent. And I kind of always wanted to be, you know, the BYU coed, but different because I also didn't fit the norm, you know, I was loud, I was big. I was, you know.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] What do you mean, big?

Heather Gay [00:52:18] Like, I'm just like, big, you know, I'm not small and quiet and sweet.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] Big personality, you're saying.

Heather Gay [00:52:23] Well and big bodied, you know, Like, I'm not. I'm not diminutive, you know, in any way.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] And the BYU guys wanted cute. Little.

Heather Gay [00:52:31] Yeah, short. I had fp. I had what they call John fp.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] Tell us about that.

Heather Gay [00:52:35] Potential. Yeah, that's fat potential.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Which means what?

Heather Gay [00:52:38] Tell people, like, you could get really fat after you have a baby. You got big bones. You seem to.

Dre Nord [00:52:43] You're not a 90 pounder.

Heather Gay [00:52:44] You're not a 90 pounder, you know, and you seem to like yourself. You seem to laugh loud. You seem to, you know, be sarcastic.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] Oh, what's that like to be in a culture that doesn't.

Heather Gay [00:52:56] You never date? I never got asked out at byu. I got asked out by one man who had stopped being homosexual and converted to the gospel and was now committed to being a righteous Mormon. But he had been gay for like five years. Wherever you're at, buddy, he's still happily married.

Dre Nord [00:53:14] Knock on. To a woman?

Heather Gay [00:53:16] Yeah, to a woman. And then I got asked out by another guy.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] Are you saying all four years or just that freshman year?

Heather Gay [00:53:23] No, all four years. Byu. I dated one guy, and he was. I met him on student council. I represented students at large on the. By USA Student Council, and he represented students of other faiths. And it was Charles Manteone Jr. And he was a Catholic guy that loved to ski and also was really impressed by the honor code because he was a man of honor. And so he came to byu and I really liked him and we dated a little bit, but of course, I didn't really date him. He was Catholic. I mean, this was, like, not why I was sent to this university. This was not my plan. So I. Yeah, I just. I got a job. Like, I worked 40 hours a week working, managing a tanning salon. And I also started a business and I was entrepreneur at byu. Yeah, at byu.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] How cool is that?

Heather Gay [00:54:08] Yeah, it was called Steelhead Designs and it was a little earring business. But I got a couple of big contracts with Nordstrom and Sundance. And I had some people that. Some older students who had been entrepreneurial and kind of invested in me and helped me. Charlie Friedman, that started Downeast Outfitters, he was a huge inspiration to me. And it was just a barbecue where he said, heather, if you want to. I'm like, charlie, let me sell these at your store. Cause he had started Down East Outfitters, and he was like, yeah, if you wanna sell these at your store, you have to make them for $3. I'll buy em for 6, we sell them for 12. And that's all he said to me. And I was like, I'll figure out a way to make them for three. And so I got a team and I started making jewelry. And I ended up winning BYU's Entrepreneur Student of the Year honorable mention.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] Oh, wow.

Heather Gay [00:54:54] I lost to Jonathan Kuhn. That started 1-800-contacts. And then I don't remember who. I kind of got third place. I don't remember who got second place. But that was a huge honor. And, like, I don't think my parents even knew about it. And guess what? Nobody at school gave two shits about it. And if I tried to talk about it with, like, pride or thrill, like, it would have been like, okay, okay. You'll be selling Doterra oils in about, you know, five years. Like, if you've got it in you.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] So what years were you there about?

Heather Gay [00:55:25] I was there 92 through. Well, I mean, technically I graduated in 96. Cause then I went on a mission, but I.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] So we overlapped.

Heather Gay [00:55:33] Really?

John Dehlin [00:55:33] I was at BYU in 92. In 93. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:55:35] Oh, my gosh.

Dre Nord [00:55:36] Wow.

Heather Gay [00:55:37] I lived in Heritage Halls and then I lived in Chatham town on like Ninth East.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] So you would have been there when the September 6th were excommunicated. Now, you probably never heard of. You don't even know who I'm talking about. Does that ever ring a bell?

Heather Gay [00:55:48] The only thing I remember being controversial was one of the female English professors.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Cecilia Farr.

Heather Gay [00:55:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Or Gail Houston, one of the two. What about them?

Heather Gay [00:55:59] Just that they were heretics and were preaching.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] One prayed to Mother in Heaven.

Heather Gay [00:56:03] Is that what I mean? I just remember they were.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] Gayle Houston prayed to Mother in Heaven and she got kicked out of BYU as a professor because she advocated praying to Mother in Heaven. Because Mormons believe that there's Mother God and Father God and potentially Father God and many Mother gods. But you pray to the dad, you pray to the guy. Yeah, but she was praying to the woman, and she got in trouble. Kicked out of byu. My. My. My wife taught. Took classes with Gail, but then Cecilia Kanchar Farr, it was like pro choice and, like, marching on the Capitol steps. And abortion should be a woman's right to choose. You know, she was booted as well, so. Okay, you remember some of that.

Heather Gay [00:56:39] I mean, I remember it. Yeah. And I. I was just very much, like, committed to being, like, as. As. What's the word? Like, as desirable of a specimen for marriage as possible. That was, like, what I was deeply committed to, and it wasn't happening for me at byu.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] But really quick, how did you deal with the depression and the sadness and the loneliness of feeling unwanted by everyone or not everyone?

Heather Gay [00:57:06] I never acknowledged it as that. You know, we don't just, like. No, it's just like, I have to find my soulmate, and it's probably things I need to change about myself or the fact that I drank sophomore year in high school, you know.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] You thought you were unworthy. Yeah. Or.

Heather Gay [00:57:23] I just. They must. I just felt like. I mean. But I also. I mean, I could tell what time it was. You know what I mean? Like, I knew that I was not. I knew I didn't have a lot of play with this community in terms of, like, sexual prowess with the boys. I mean, I was. I had traveled. I had been to other schools. I had, like. I got asked out by a professional football player. You know, I. I would walk through an airport, and I knew men liked me. You know, I didn't suffer from that,

John Dehlin [00:57:55] but you weren't the type.

Heather Gay [00:57:57] Mormon men didn't like me.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] You weren't the type.

Heather Gay [00:57:59] They just didn't. And I didn't blame them. So I didn't feel sadness or depression. I mean, I think I felt loneliness. I had a lot of best guy friends, you know, who would. We traveled together and had the best times, and we're, like, very, very close. But then they always liked the appropriate choice. And I understood that. I totally understood that. But I knew that I knew what I had to offer. And so I just was kind of, I guess, just assuming I was biding my time. I didn't have any career aspirations. I didn't have any. It was almost like, here I am, I'm graduating, I'm still not married. Holy shit, what do I do? And so I went on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] Yes, you did that. So tell our listeners. Mormon missions are different now. Because now, in 2020. Both boys and girls are encouraged to go on missions. Boys when they're 18, girls when they're 19. It was different back in our day. And not all women were encouraged to go on missions.

Dre Nord [00:58:56] No.

John Dehlin [00:58:56] And so talk about that.

Heather Gay [00:58:58] So it was 1997, and I kind of. With a friend, we just looked at each other and we were like, I'll go if you go. Because neither of us were married. And kind of at that crossroads, you know, we didn't know what our graduation and our deadline was approaching, our expiration date was approaching, and we kind of made the choice. And I remember telling my parents, and this is when it's tricky, I think as like, a devout Mormon parent. And it's very different now than it was 20 years ago. You know, to be clear, only girls that couldn't get married or were weird when on missions. I mean, that's really.

John Dehlin [00:59:41] And sometimes I. This is going to sound awful, but sometimes overweight.

Heather Gay [00:59:45] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, you had to be. You were undesirable, or not married yet. Not married yet. Like, you would graduate from BYU and you weren't married. Like, go on a mission if you can pull it off. And like, I remember telling my parents and trying to spin it, like. But we all knew, you know, we all knew that, like, my sister got married by the time she was 19. Here I am, 21, unmarried, no prospects on the horizon, and I'm gonna go on a mission. And I saw them be supportive, but also be like, oh, geez, you know,

Dre Nord [01:00:25] like, almost like, we saw this coming, or.

Heather Gay [01:00:27] No, I don't think. I think they just thought, like, she's going on that path, you know, like, the return missionary. And there was. I'm sure they were happy that I wasn't saying, like, listen, I'm joining the circus, or, you know, I'm joining the cult. But I don't think they were truly thrilled. I think that they would have rather had me getting married to some sort of Mormon prince. And this. The reason I mention that now is because they might have a different explanation. My mom might say differently. And of course they would say differently if you were to ask them, because I knew at the end of the day that we toed the line. We said what we needed to say to be appropriate, accommodating, socialized Mormons. But that's what we presented to the world. And I knew that the core values of my family and of my parents were marriage, temple marriage, no other option, and family.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:01:23] And then I ended up serving a mission in France, and When I came home, I was gonna go live in D.C. with some of my very well established Mormon friends who were smart and had graduated from byu, had made the decision to not go on a mission and were furthering their education and working in D.C. i believe my friend was like, Margaret. Wasn't she getting her MBA and her master's, like that joint program at like, I mean, she's public policy and MBA at the same time. Also going to Harvard for business. And I was gonna go live with her and be her roommate. And this was exciting to me because I knew of the East Coast Mormons, there were two wards you wanted to be in. The Colonial ward singles. The Colonial ward, or the Huntington beach singles ward. There were two magnets. Those singles were east side, west side. And I told my dad and my dad said, I don't think that's the right choice for you. And they were adamantly opposed to it.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] So you're going to the East.

Heather Gay [01:02:23] Yeah. And he said out loud, like, single career minded women is not the path I see for you. And you need to focus on getting married. And probably cited a couple references or Ezra Taft Benson. Yeah. You know, like this is where your

John Dehlin [01:02:38] goal is and no success can compensate. That's in the show. Yeah, you say that right.

Heather Gay [01:02:43] Yeah, loosely. Paraphrase Harold B. Lee, no success. And David O. McKay said it too. It's kind of a combo of those.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] No success can compensate for failure in the home.

Heather Gay [01:02:52] Yeah. And also like no success you have outside the home will ever equal what you do as a mother and a wife. And so I, my sister lived in California. I made the decision to go to the Huntington beach ward because that was more palatable because I went there with, not with career minded women, but with fun sun loving surf bunnies that were also, you know, I had a better chance of, you know, of getting married there.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Yeah. Oh no.

Dre Nord [01:03:21] And you did. You made it happen.

Heather Gay [01:03:22] I did. And I met and married my ex husband within. You know, I was there for a year and then the day he moved into the ward, you snatched him up. Yeah, well, he snatched me up. Cause he was new. He was new to it. He was new to that mecca of like the men having like the pick of the litter, so to speak.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] You know, so gross.

Heather Gay [01:03:40] That heavy, heavy environment where they didn't even have to ask girls out because we were just pining for them and baking them things and dropping things off and showing our prowess in like decorating and oh, they don't have a Christmas tree, let's do one for them. You know, oh, it's Easter. Let's make Easter baskets for all the boys in 4B. You know, we did it all. And he came in and, like, met me and kind of courted me, and we met and got married within nine months. So that was like, you found it.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] You did it. You nailed it.

Heather Gay [01:04:08] I did it.

John Dehlin [01:04:09] You nailed it.

Heather Gay [01:04:10] And how grateful am I for that?

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Do you use his first name or do you not use his first name?

Heather Gay [01:04:14] That's Billy.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] Billy.

Heather Gay [01:04:15] Billy Gay.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Billy Gay.

Heather Gay [01:04:16] Billy Gay iii.

The Honor Code and Mission Experiences

John Dehlin [01:04:18] So, Dre, swing the microphone around and show people your shirt. Oh, okay. So tell them what you're supposed to do.

Heather Gay [01:04:23] This dream.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] Tell them what your shirt says.

Dre Nord [01:04:26] Honor code.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] What? Okay. And that's a tie to the show. Go ahead and pull it back. That's a tie to the show.

Dre Nord [01:04:31] Yes.

Heather Gay [01:04:31] And the honor code restricted you from having a boy in your apartment past 9pm any sort of immorality, drinking, smoking, swearing, wearing clothes without sleeves, wearing skirts above your knee. Like, the honor code was policed by other students. And you would also could be called in for an honor code violation if you failed to report a fellow student who was blatantly violating the honor code. So even if I'm living my best life and my roommate is boffing your boyfriend the next room, I could lose my position at the university if I did not turn that person in. So honor code was like, life.

Dre Nord [01:05:11] It's what you lived.

Heather Gay [01:05:13] It was policed by the other students. And it was very much kind of like that mentality of just like, better take her. Better her than me. You know, like, so that's why the shirt. Honor code. What is so funny? Because.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] Can people buy that?

Heather Gay [01:05:29] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:05:31] Yeah. On our website, beautylablaser.com, we sell them there. They're pretty funny. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Okay. So one question I do have to ask about honor code. What do you think? Were you. Did you ever lift up your shirt ever, and were you the type of student that would break the honor code as far as you remember?

Heather Gay [01:05:51] As far as I remember, like, at byu, I would have broken the honor code with any guy that asked me to. No one was knocking on my door. No one wanted to peer under my shirt. Nobody would have looked had I flashed them. I was invisible at byu.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] So you weren't a party girl?

Heather Gay [01:06:08] I was not a party girl. I would have longed. I would have longed to be any sort of girl at byu.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] I was invisible.

Heather Gay [01:06:15] I was, you know, getting my degree and working at a tanning salon 40 hours a week. And I was. I don't know. How to explain it? I had zero play with the Mormon community of men. I would leave campus and, like, remember that I was even an attractive woman. Like, I have that community. And I'm sure there were guys that liked me that never, you know, admitted it, but I did not. I was not dating.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Yeah. Anything worth mentioning about your mission at all? You said you were a year and a half in France. Was it cool? Was it awesome? Should we just not even talk about it?

Heather Gay [01:06:55] No. I loved my. I mean, I loved my mission. I was a very, very good missionary. The AP's had a sticker of my face and my companion's face on the back of their tags. We had the highest baptisms in the history of that mission. I think it's because only young, single women or single mothers were interested in hearing the gospel. And so in France. In France. But I had a couple pivotal moments in my mission where I realized I was asking these women who were kind of my same age to leave everything they had ever known. And I saw the future of the church there, and there was no priesthood. There was no way to sustain it. And I had a couple big moments where I thought, this doesn't feel right. But it doesn't matter, because I'm here to represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and to bring people to God, you know? So I just suppressed a lot of it.

John Dehlin [01:07:50] Suppressed feeling.

Heather Gay [01:07:51] The feeling that the feeling of being pulled in two directions like this might not be noble. And I have one pivotal story where this woman had gone through all these things, and we tried to get her to quit smoking, quit drinking, quit having an affair with her boss, and she was doing all these things, and we thought she was our golden contact. And then. And she kind of dropped off of the discussions, and we ran into her on the plaza, and she was jubilant and glowing and so happy. And she was like, I took all the money that I was saving for tithing. I went shopping, and I've never felt more alive. And, you know, I remember her walking off, and I, like, looked at my companion and, like, I felt deep, deep despair. And I attributed it to her rejecting the gospel. But if I had been completely honest with myself, the despair I felt was because I wanted to go with her.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Ooh. Why?

Heather Gay [01:08:55] Because she was happier and I wanted. I loved her as a human being. Like, I had more in common with her than with my companion. And I felt this despair because I could never do what she's doing. Take the money I'd been saving for tithing, spend it, and Feel the joy she felt. And I knew that because in the context of who I was and who I was raised to be, I could never be that carefree about leaving the church or defying the principles of the gospel. Like, I was in it. So either I was gonna be in it and sad, or I was gonna have to be against it and sad, because it was always going to be in reference to. To who I was born to be and how I was living my life in that moment. And that's another that brings it back to Dre, because that's why I feel like it's hard for me to reconcile, because you left so long ago that it's like now you are who you are. But I feel like I'm always going to be either the person that's on this side of the fence. Oh, sorry. On this side of the fence. Or that side of the fence. And it never leaves the reference of who I am. You know what I mean? My Mormonism is so fundamental to my identity that even if I were to not be Mormon, I'm now not Mormon. I'm not just myself.

Dre Nord [01:10:12] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Okay, so, Dre, we're coming to you right now. But before we do, I'm going to ask you to do one thing, Heather, that I ask people who serve missions in foreign countries, are you willing to bear your testimony in French or, you know, tell.

Heather Gay [01:10:25] Well, I can do that.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] Give the audience a sense for how you would have borne your testimony in French.

Heather Gay [01:10:29] I will say, bonjour, je suis sardines. Je suis un missionaires de l' eglise de J's dess gener. J' AI au cune message pour vous et votre famille. And I would say I could do the first vision. Je vous a de sous de matte une cologne de sous de la soleil, et qui de sant. Peut a peu. Just. I'm going to paraphrase but.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] And tell. Tell everyone what you just said.

Heather Gay [01:11:08] I just said, hello, I'm a missionary with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I. I'm here with a message of joy for you and your family. And then I would. You know, we would tell the story of the first vision. Like, I saw above my head a column of light that was more brilliant than the sun that descended just a little until it fell over me. And there were two figures, two men, and one demonstrated the other and said, here is my son. Listen to him. You know, Hear him. Behold my beloved son.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] Hear him and tell us why you're getting emotional about this that.

Dre Nord [01:11:47] Well, I don't know, John, Actually, it's just tender.

Heather Gay [01:11:52] He's tender because I just. I have. I'm just sad that my life is not my own and never was and never probably will be.

Dre Nord [01:12:07] It will be.

Heather Gay [01:12:10] And I feel shame. I feel shame that I sent that message over and over and over. And then I'm not now I'm not living it. You know, I feel shame and regret. But I. And I feel sad that I couldn't be in France with those people and love them as they were and embrace the things I loved about their culture. Instead, I had. You know, instead I was superior and I was dogmatic and I was absolutely committed to no other option. Then this is the truth. And your life will be better and you'll be happier if you live it. And that has not been proven to be true for me. But I taught it to other people who were just minding their own business, living their best life. And I came in and promised them heaven and earth, you know.

John Dehlin [01:13:12] And what hasn't been true for you?

Heather Gay [01:13:15] Just that the plan of happiness hasn't really worked out for me, I guess you could say.

Dre Nord [01:13:24] I think we're promised that if we just follow the gospel, we'll be happy.

Heather Gay [01:13:30] I think that that's the most sinister part of my faith is even reading the family proclamation. It doesn't only say, this is like the doctrine of God. It says, these are the principles for which happiness in. On earth will be best achieved.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] You got it memorized?

Dre Nord [01:13:46] Yeah, of course.

Heather Gay [01:13:47] And Jesus the Christ, all the things. And that happiness is the sinister word. You know, like men are. Adam felt that men might be. Men are. That they might have joy. And. And I think there's a lot of people out there living the principles but not feeling joy. And we don't recognize that. Like, it just. We instead turn inward and say, well, we aren't doing enough or we aren't committed enough or we aren't living it enough. And I think that's probably why I get emotional. I don't know. It's just weird to say it, to remember who I was. I felt powerful as a missionary. I think I'm a good saleswoman. I think I am good at marketing. I think I'm. All the gifts that I now recognize as gifts that were never recognized before. I think made me a great member of the church, made me a great missionary, made me a great Relief Society president, you know, made me a great young women's leader. And I'm sad that, like, Those were the only ways that, like, anything I was, anything I was born with was put to use. Because now I can't embrace that. You know, I can't have that be a part of my narrative because there's so much shame because I'm not continuing it. So it's like I'm eradicated. And like, when I finally came into my own, it's still invalid because, you know, I didn't persevere. I didn't press forward with steadfastness. You know, I didn't make it it till the end. And here I am sitting on the couch in Mormon stories, which I used to think was like, the devil.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] What?

Heather Gay [01:15:28] I just was like, oh, nope, nope, nope. Not the Mormon stories. Don't approach me with that, Dre. I'm not that far gone. Yeah. So that's probably get emotional. I digress.

Bearing Testimony and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:15:42] That's beautiful, Heather. That was beautiful. And I really appreciate you going deep. You know, I'm going to just say, and this is probably stereotypical and rude, but you watch Real Housewives and you almost think like, these aren't real people. I don't know if you understand that someone who's new to viewing this, sometimes it can feel. I mean, it's fun and it's exciting and it's dramatic and it's emotional, you

Dre Nord [01:16:10] know, but it's entertainment.

Heather Gay [01:16:10] But it's entertainment.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] And you sometimes go like, I wonder what these people are really like behind the camera. And I know that these people are wise and profound and smart, or at least you are. Right. And I'm sure they are, too. But I love that we're able to kind of go deep. It's so beautiful and powerful. So I have to ask you one question. So you bore your testimony. You talked about the church. You talked about Joseph Smith. So talk really quickly about the beliefs, the Mormon beliefs that were most important to you, because you don't really get to dig into that. Or at least that we haven't seen so far on the show.

Heather Gay [01:16:46] Yeah. And I would never. It would almost be blasphemous. You know, it's such a nuanced thing, like, you know, the intricacies of our faith, and especially Mormonism, where it's. You could take something for shock factor and have it just be, you know.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] Exploited.

Heather Gay [01:16:59] Yeah, exploited completely. And that's not the purpose of the show, is to not teach people about Mormonism. It's just that I can't really display my life unless I talk about it. Cause that's why I'm so messed up. Folks you know, or wonderful or whatever. But it's like. And I.

John Dehlin [01:17:16] The question is the parts of your testimony that were most important to you as a missionary. And after.

Heather Gay [01:17:21] Listen, I am a tbm. I am a true believing Mormon. I understood that, you know, like, tithing's a principle of faith that, you know, I have no problem suspending disbelief for Urim and Thummim and the way that the plates were no longer here, you know, that's what God was going for. You know, like, I just. I think that religion, for me, every part of my testimony was important. Like, there wasn't any.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Tell us the five or seven or eight things that were, like, the most.

Heather Gay [01:17:56] Okay. The Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] What about it?

Heather Gay [01:17:57] The Book of Mormon, I thought, and I'm scared to say this in front of Dre and you, but, like, was the most correct book written on the face of the earth, and that a man would do more by abiding by its principles than, you know, than any other book. And I've read the Book of Mormon a lot of times, and it always, you know, it's weird and it's convoluted and it's, you know, made up names, but there are nuggets of wisdom and truth that have continually showed up in my life, you know, and I'll say things and think that's a scripture, you know, or like, here's something that, like, you know, on a TED Talk, and I'll be like, well, yeah, that's Alma, 29, you know, like. Or that's Moroni's promise, you know, And I have. I have a testimony of, and I hate to say the veracity of the Book of Mormon, but. But the Book of Mormon is a wonderful book. And for the first time, I'm starting to say, like, well, you know what? Untamed by Glennon Doyle is also a wonderful book that informs my life, you know, and so is A Tale of Two Cities, and so is Heart of Darkness.

John Dehlin [01:19:13] Whoa, you just dropped Charles Dickens and

Heather Gay [01:19:16] Joseph Conrad on Mormon stories, you know, and. And I used to. I don't like to even say in past tense because I'm still walking through all of it, but I don't know how to disentangle myself from the principles that have enriched my life and that have informed my life. So, like, I think differently about artists and women's roles because I put them all in context of, like, the gospel plan, you know what I mean? And I still can't extrapolate from my own identity the shame I feel that I'm not A full time mom. That I'm not the mother, that my mother was to me in many ways and that I am letting down generations of people that sacrificed everything so that I could be privileged enough to sit here and like say, I don't know if it's true, you know?

John Dehlin [01:20:18] Sure.

Heather Gay [01:20:20] So I believe everything about it and I believe nothing about it.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] You're right in the thick of it. So really quickly we'll do like a firing round where I'm just going to list some Mormon doctrines and you just say what it means to you. So Heavenly Father. What is Heavenly Father and you. This is before your faith crisis.

Heather Gay [01:20:38] So like, okay, as a tbs.

John Dehlin [01:20:41] Yeah. Heavenly Father means what?

Heather Gay [01:20:42] An all knowing, all loving, omniscient, omnipotent God that knows me individually and loves me eternally. Jesus, Jesus Christ, his son, born of a divine father, immortal mother. The only way, an advocate for us before the Father, the only one capable of redeeming us and bridging the gap between mortal life and eternal glory.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] Holy Ghost.

Heather Gay [01:21:11] Holy Ghost is an integral part of the Godhead, but does not have a body, for if he did, he could not inhabit ours. And is the light of Christ within us that helps direct us. Is the Jiminy. I used to picture him as Jiminy Cricket. A wonderful angel man that would guide me away from anything that would hurt me or cause me cause enmity between me and God. The Bible, a wonderful work of prophets that has been, you know, misinterpreted by, and now contains like archaic cultural code because it was, you know, but it's if divinely translated and it's the King James Version, I think it is, you know, contains true principles. But I cannot read a Bible, not in the King James Version.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] Right, right.

Heather Gay [01:22:02] That, that I am. That pentameter is the only way it even, you know, resonates with me.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] Joseph Smith.

Heather Gay [01:22:09] Joseph Smith, a brilliant. Prophet of God that received revelation and light and brought forth the fastest growing religion on the face of the planet.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] And what was his character like?

Heather Gay [01:22:28] I think that God can do amazing things through extremely flawed human beings. I know because I am an extremely flawed human being and I have done great things in the name of God,

John Dehlin [01:22:38] you know,

Heather Gay [01:22:42] so I think he was probably all the things that people say. He was probably a pedophile, probably a womanizer, but also probably a great friend, fun guy, charming and hopeful and burdened, you know, with the vicissitudes of life and being the founder of a religion.

John Dehlin [01:23:12] No, okay. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Dre Nord [01:23:16] You know,

John Dehlin [01:23:19] this is pre. Pre Faith Christian, the truest church on

Heather Gay [01:23:22] the face of the planet and the only church that contains the restored priesthood and direct lineage back to Jesus Christ and to Peter and the. You know, I just believe that, like, the church is heavily flawed because we are humans running it, but we're doing the best we can and our heart's in the right place and God's gonna figure it all out in the end. And even though we keep gays out of heaven, we still love them on earth. And even though we, you know, changed our mind about Black people in 1978, we at least changed our mind and we're making up for it now, you know, and we're doing the best we can because. But we are, you know, we're the only true church on the face of the earth.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] Only true.

Dre Nord [01:24:13] True.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] Yeah, priesthood.

Heather Gay [01:24:15] The priesthood is a real tangible. The power of God restored by Joseph Smith through Peter, James and John. And that it is, you know, that every male that has been endowed with the priesthood can trace his priesthood lineage back to Jesus Christ and that the laying on of hands is a real tangible way to transfer priesthood power.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] What about the maleness of the priesthood? How did you think about that?

Heather Gay [01:24:46] You know, God had to balance things out. And as females, we are divine. You know, we create life and they organize and have to have their own thing so they don't feel bad about themselves. That's like literally what we do.

John Dehlin [01:24:59] The priest is like the concession prize.

Heather Gay [01:25:02] Yeah, because, you know, we are the mother of all. That's all living. And truly, if you, you know, temple doctrine, you know, our children are sealed to us. And so we had to have a way to make that link back to a man. And so, you know, myself and my posterity, it's like my womb is blessed. And so I need a reason to need you. And so it made sense to me in a perfect, full circle way. Families, families are eternal. And what's sealed on earth is still in heaven. Why are you guys doing this to me? So stupid.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] And,

Heather Gay [01:25:44] you know, a family is the greatest way to have happiness on earth and eternal glory. And like, you know, families can be together forever through heavenly Father's plan and no empty chairs, you know, meaning we've all got to get back there together. And it doesn't mean anything if one of us doesn't get back there.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] Back where?

Heather Gay [01:26:07] To heaven.

John Dehlin [01:26:08] What part?

Heather Gay [01:26:09] The celestial kingdom. Eternal progression. Exaltation. It is.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] What's the difference between celestial kingdom and other places in heaven?

Heather Gay [01:26:18] Well, I've heard that if you saw the telestial, you'd kill yourself just to get there, because it's nice, too. But the only way to progress eternally and to have sex eternally and to be loved eternally and become a God.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] Right.

Heather Gay [01:26:30] And to become a God and to, you know, progress eternally, because wouldn't it be terrible if you were just not able to progress? And I'm like, I haven't progressed in, like, 15 years, and it has been pretty terrible, but is, you know, through saving ordinances and the sealing powers of the temple. And I thought it was all weird, but I also surrendered, you know, was able to suspend my disbelief because the promises were so great, you know?

John Dehlin [01:27:01] That was beautiful. Thank you so much for being willing to do that. I wasn't trying to be mean or cruel, but that's beautiful. And it's something nobody gets to see in the show, right?

Dre Nord [01:27:10] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:27:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Thank you for doing that. Are you feeling okay? Do you have any reflections after sharing that?

Heather Gay [01:27:18] No, it's just that, you know, I was. When I was thinking about coming on here, I had, like, kind of steeled myself up, like, you know, why don't I believe? But it's so much easier to say, like, why I do believe than it is to justify why I don't believe. So I appreciate you, like, drawing a line in the sand. Like, before, I was burdened with this awareness and burdened with actually lack of options, because if my family hadn't imploded and I was still sealed to my, you know, still in a nuclear family, I guess, because I'm still sealed to my husband, but, you know, everything changed in context of that. But, like, before my faith crisis, this is how I believed and how I conducted myself, and I don't necessarily feel that way right now. And even if I did feel that way, which obviously I still do, there are too many horrible atrocities being committed in the name of righteousness and the church and to the people I love and to the people that I actually want to be in heaven with. Like, when I think about being in heaven forever, like, first of all, my OD friend right here, like, I don't want to go if she's not there. And my gay best friends and my friend's transgender child, you know, I.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] How about me and you?

Heather Gay [01:28:44] Yeah, you're an od, too. Like, the people that I want to be with forever are not, you know, Sister Marshall that's never missed visiting, teaching a day in her life. And I just got my Snickers bar taped to my door because, God damn it, she's not gonna miss A month. I don't care if she's on television and won't answer the door. You know, that's not who I wanna be with forever. But I'm pretty sure she'll be there, you know? Cause she's crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's, and she's never wavered, and I'm wavering. And so. So maybe it's like, I don't want to be a part of any club that wants me as a member. And so I'm just working through all of that right now.

John Dehlin [01:29:23] So. Beautiful. Thank you.

Heather Gay [01:29:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:27] Okay, Dre, it's coming back to you now.

Dre Nord [01:29:29] I mean, I don't know how I can follow that. No.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] Well, I'll get you. I'll get you, too.

Dre Nord [01:29:34] It's so amazing. No, but I, like, remember feeling the same way. And, like, you will find an identity outside of. Of all of this. It's taken me a long time, but you'll get there, and it just feels

Heather Gay [01:29:50] like your identity is either pro or anti. You know, it's never. Not. It's never outside of the scope of Mormonism.

Dre Nord [01:29:59] But that's what I mean. Not to, like, you know, sidetrack a little bit, but that's what we were talking about in the car. And that's why I love what John's doing is, like. I feel like when I did leave the church, I was totally anti and, like, wanted to be a missionary for people to leave the church and because I was so angry. And John's podcast and, like, a lot of the things that he has done for many, many years, I feel like has helped create that gray area of, like, we don't have to hate the church, and we can also not believe in the church. And it's okay to still love the church, love the principals, be grateful for Sister Marshall who taped, you know, Snickers, Barry Andy's mints.

Heather Gay [01:30:46] It wasn't a Snickers bar.

Dre Nord [01:30:47] Okay, well, I mean, less credit to you, Sister Marshall, but I think a lot of times when we leave the church, at least for me, I kind of threw it all out and was like, well, screw those guys. They tricked me. I'm pissed. And a lot of what John's doing has allowed me to remain in gratitude for the things that I was taught that way. And there is a middle ground. I know it seems like there's not because it's so polarized right now, especially with everything that's happening with stupid fair Mormon and people being crazy. It seems like the divide is ever growing but that's all the more reason to really dive in and say the things that you're saying. Of like, I believe it all and I don't believe it all. There are so many people that feel the same way.

John Dehlin [01:31:34] I think a lot of active Mormons. You know how like so many. It's so Mormon to like have the elephants in the room where people just don't talk about anything important. There are so many active, devout Mormons that don't believe. Some or all of the church that go to that are in the pews every Sunday when it's not Covid because they just stay quiet because they're terrified to ever talk up. And so, yes, there's all sorts of ways to be a Mormon. And there are people. And the other thing that we forget is in other religions, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, you know, you go when you want, you don't go when you don't want. You. You believe the things you want to believe, you don't believe the things you don't want to believe. It's like a cafeteria approach. And that's actually okay. And they're just glad when you show up. Like, that's religion in almost every other American religion. Not Scientologists, not Jehovah's Witnesses, not Mormons, maybe not Orthodox Jews, but besides that, that's how most Americans do religion. And we're just new, we're just young. And so we haven't figured it out yet, but we are totally, as a church, more and more moving to the place where you can just be whatever type of Mormon you want and they're just going to be glad to have you because frankly, they're losing so many people, right? So if you want to be Mormon, if you want to stay Mormon, you could totally do that, you know. But that's a journey you're gonna have to go on.

Dre Nord [01:32:46] I think that would be difficult. At least that would be difficult for me because of the types of Mormons we were or are. That would be tough to be that 2.0 of the cafeteria style. I don't know, Heather, you're an all in person and I'm the same way.

Heather Gay [01:33:01] Like, and I don't believe that the family proclamation is true or real. And I don't believe. I mean, a lot of what I said, I believed. You know, I believed all of it, and I believed none of it too, you know, so I'm still.

John Dehlin [01:33:16] You're in the journey, you're in the thick of it. It's beautiful.

Dre Nord [01:33:18] She's in the thick of it.

John Dehlin [01:33:19] Good work.

Heather Gay [01:33:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] It's called maturity. It's called progress. Like, you're growing now. You weren't growing for. You were growing for a few years. You're growing now. And guess what? Growth is pain.

Heather Gay [01:33:29] It is painful.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] It's painful.

Heather Gay [01:33:31] And it's so interesting just in terms of the television show, you know, Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Like, I. The one thing that kept me from deciding to do it was not, will this affect my children? Will this, you know, embarrass my family? It was, will I get a letter from the church saying, you are excommunicated and we have removed your name. And, like, I just remember sitting there on the plane, coming back from, like, one of the final things, thinking, this is a moment. And, like, what is more important to me? And because. And I. And I. I made the choice, you know, I said, I'm willing to risk it, but I did it hoping that I would never get the letter. Let's just be fair, you know, I. Maybe I can slide under the radar, not get that letter and still do this, but the fact that that was the biggest obstacle would blow most, like, would blow a Lutheran's mind. You know, what's the Lutheran Church gonna think about this? Like, why do you care? You know, I had a friend that said, listen, attendance isn't compulsory. Like, I'm like, are you still Lutheran? Well, yeah. I don't have to go to church to be Lutheran. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I am. Attendance isn't counted. It's not part of the program. And I'm like, well, I haven't gone to church because of COVID for a year, and I don't feel Mormon anymore. You know, like, yeah, people have assumed I've moved or been, you know, struck down or will be. It's just. It's all. It's so interesting that even at this, when I haven't been living as a Mormon for years, you know, but in the shadows, and I still. That was the one thing that would keep me from kind of potentially, like, the biggest opportunity in my life that had ever crossed my life to this path, I would have turned it down to remain in the shadows and to toe the line as a good Mormon girl. Even if I didn't live it or believe it, I would have done that for the glory of the church.

John Dehlin [01:35:26] Beautiful. The good news is I've been friends with some Mormon celebrities. So, like Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons and Tyler Glenn. They don't excommunicate celebrities because it's really bad pr. So you're probably. You're probably sick, too. Yeah. You're probably sick.

Dre Nord [01:35:41] You're in.

Heather Gay [01:35:42] I'm in.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] Yeah. Because it's. How awful would that look? Right?

Heather Gay [01:35:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:46] It'd be global news. Yeah. They'll excommunicate.

Dre Nord [01:35:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:35:50] Good to know.

John Dehlin [01:35:51] That was beautiful. Thank you so much.

Heather Gay [01:35:53] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:35:54] We're not done with you.

Heather Gay [01:35:55] I know, I know. But I'm ready to turn the time over now to Sister Nord.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] Sister Nord.

Dre Nord [01:36:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:36:02] So you met this cute boy. You got married.

Dre Nord [01:36:04] Yeah, we got married.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Living the dream.

Dre Nord [01:36:08] Okay. Well, the dream was short lived, I hate to say.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] Did you believe all the things she believed?

Dre Nord [01:36:14] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] So you. That could have been your testimony.

Dre Nord [01:36:16] That could have been my testimony, too. Absolutely. I resonate with all of that. I was a full true believer, no questions asked.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Anything else you want to add to it that was really important to you?

Dre Nord [01:36:27] No, no. I think Heather and I had a similar. I mean, we've shared this. Hopefully it won't reveal you, Heather. But I was such a believer and didn't question anything. And I think the only time that I had a weird, like, twinge of like, ooh, maybe. I don't know if this feels good, was when I went through the temple. Well, I'd taken out or I had received my endowment. I loved it. Like, some people talk about the temple being weird, but, like, I was just like, this is real life. The earth is weird. This is what it's supposed to be. I loved it. I was just so thrilled to finally have my temple blessings. And I just loved it and was deeply moved and loved all of it. The only thing when I went through was when you had to. Do you allowed to talk about this. Okay, sure. When you talked about vowing to your husband.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] So during the. During the wedding. During the endowment.

Dre Nord [01:37:35] Yes. Not during the ceiling, but yeah. During the endowment, when Eve, you know, has to obey the husband.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] The husband covenants to hearken to God.

Dre Nord [01:37:43] Yes.

Heather Gay [01:37:43] And the woman covenants to hearken, which has changed now.

Dre Nord [01:37:47] Yeah, I've heard you went through the woman had to covenant to hearken God. Yeah, because I went through in 2001.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] And you had to say what?

Dre Nord [01:37:55] I had to vow to obey my husband as he obeyed God. As he obeyed God. And that was the only thing, because God bless him, my first husband. But he was wild and he was not as into the church as me. And I knew that and I knew the doctrine, and I was a really good Mormon. And he was kind of one of those that was like, oh, all right. Like, she's Marrying that guy. But of course, you know, he was a returned missionary and all the things, well, to do. Family? No, I was 21 by the time we got married. But, yeah, I was kind of like, he's getting me into heaven. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm getting us into heaven.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] She had a feminist awakening.

Dre Nord [01:38:40] I really did. That was the only thing that was uncomfortable to me. I didn't have a problem with the true order of prayer. I liked it. I liked everything about the temple. The one thing that my still small voice, my higher self, the Holy Ghost, whatever it was, that was like, knock, knock, knock, Dre, this is gonna be a problem for you. And of course, I shut it down. I know he's an amazing priesthood holder. Now that we're married, we're gonna be on the straight and narrow. I've got him. He's gonna do it my way, and we're gonna be okay. But I do remember having that feeling in the temple, and then I kind of felt shame and felt badly for thinking that, because I'm like, oh, my husband's perfect, and da, da, da, and he's gonna get us there. But that was my one kind of, like, precursor.

Heather Gay [01:39:31] And I had had the same exact.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] You did, too.

Heather Gay [01:39:33] Feeling the same exact moment. We both kind of, like, remembered thinking, well, yeah, we're gonna pretend, but, like, you know, we all know that the woman is the neck, and she turns the man of the head whichever direction she wants. Like, I'm gonna have to pretend that he's the one, but it's gonna be me. And it was the same for my mom. It's the same for every. It's like, oh, this is the great lie, you know, that we are pretending to hearken to them, but we're really running the show.

John Dehlin [01:39:59] Was that said. Was that spoken?

Dre Nord [01:40:01] Never.

Heather Gay [01:40:01] No, but it is. I had a phone call with my sister a couple days ago, who's still a very devout Mormon, and without getting into it, she just said, well, we all know, like, I tell men what to do all the time, is what she kind of said. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not actually in charge of them. You realize that we don't hold the priesthood.

Dre Nord [01:40:18] Yes, I was.

Heather Gay [01:40:18] I was in stake Young women's. You're in charge of women. You know, like, not. You don't organize men. You don't lead men. You do not direct men. You're not a Sunday school. You're not anything co Ed.

Dre Nord [01:40:30] But I think how we felt in those moments in the temple was like, but we're above it.

Heather Gay [01:40:36] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:40:37] Like, yeah, oh, he's here, he's got the priesthood. And, but like, we all know that we're the righteous ones.

John Dehlin [01:40:43] Interesting.

Dre Nord [01:40:44] And it is. I had a major superiority issue when I was in the church. It was the worst. But I even felt that in the temple with my own husband, as did, I've got this, I'm getting us to heaven, not him. And as long as he goes along and we do the church the doctrinal way that I was raised to live it, then we're gonna be just fine.

Heather Gay [01:41:09] It's the promise. It's a covenant. We're covenanting for our own happiness. If you're obedient, you will be blessed. If you are not, you have no promise. And we were gonna be obedient.

Dre Nord [01:41:24] Absolutely. And I had no problem doing that. I was good at it and it's all I knew. And I gave up my internship and I went to work and, and supported my husband to do a fake internship

Heather Gay [01:41:41] and play video games.

Dre Nord [01:41:42] And play video games. But I was a child. I was a very, very sheltered, young, dumb 21 year old that knew very, very little about the world.

Heather Gay [01:41:52] And

Dre Nord [01:41:55] in the first two years that I was married to my first husband, there were a couple things that happened. Number one, we were just going along our merry way, being fine, dealing with what normal 21 year old married people deal with. And I got a phone call from my little brother and he was in a panic, very, very upset. He was 14 at the time. And he said, I just found a note from my mom. I found a note from mom and I think she's gonna kill herself. And that shook me because we had the perfect family. Married in the temple, four kids, well to do, living in Alpine. My mom was beautiful, popular, well liked. My dad was successful. And that was news to me of why my mom would even possibly be so unhappy that she would want to end her life. And, and so we luckily, thank heavens, were able to find her. Well, actually some friends and neighbors found her and when she talked to us about it, after kind of things had settled down, she told us, I just can't be a good Mormon. I'm never going to get to the celestial kingdom. It's never going to happen for me. I keep messing up. All of the things that I am are not good enough. And so it's better for me to just go telestial because if I end it now, at least I'll go to telestial and that's probably where I belong.

Women's Roles and Expectations in Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:43:31] Tell listeners what telestial means.

Dre Nord [01:43:33] So it's the third and lowest kingdom.

John Dehlin [01:43:35] So describe heaven.

Dre Nord [01:43:36] Okay. So heaven is the three kingdoms of glory.

John Dehlin [01:43:39] In Mormonism.

Dre Nord [01:43:40] In Mormonism, top kingdom is celestial middle. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:43] That's what Heather was talking about.

Heather Gay [01:43:44] That's the goal. That's the place where God resides. It's a revolving globe of glory, glass and fire.

Dre Nord [01:43:48] Yes. And it's the best place. It's where we want to be terrestrial is the middle kingdom. It's like for the so and so goods, I guess. Yeah. The middle ground, the good Christian people that didn't join the Mormon Church, that didn't join the.

Heather Gay [01:44:04] That failed to accept the gospel here on earth and then also refused it when they were in spirit prison.

Dre Nord [01:44:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:11] By the way, who's going to be up there with God and refuse it? It's kind of a weird teachings, those hard hearts.

Dre Nord [01:44:18] Right. And then the telestial kingdom is the lowest kingdom which is still so good that you'd want to kill yourself to go there.

John Dehlin [01:44:27] Yeah. So it's still awesome.

Dre Nord [01:44:28] It's still awesome. It's still immensely better than this world. But it is the lowest.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] You're not with.

Dre Nord [01:44:33] You're not with God, you're not with your family.

John Dehlin [01:44:35] Let's say that again slowly.

Dre Nord [01:44:37] You're not with God and you're not with your family.

John Dehlin [01:44:39] So you don't get to live with God and you're not in a family.

Dre Nord [01:44:42] And I think if you're in Celestial you can visit the people below you, below you, but you can't.

Heather Gay [01:44:46] The elevator goes down, but it doesn't go up. Yeah, it's a one way door.

Dre Nord [01:44:50] Yeah. But my.

Heather Gay [01:44:51] That's what I always told you I'd come visit.

Dre Nord [01:44:53] Dude, I'm outer darkness, so you can't come visit me.

Heather Gay [01:44:55] I will let you into the celestial just for brunch.

John Dehlin [01:44:59] By the way, I don't think they've really thought this through because what if everyone makes the telestial? How are they going to keep everyone apart from each other?

Dre Nord [01:45:06] I mean.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] Right. So I don't think we've really thought that through.

Dre Nord [01:45:08] No.

Heather Gay [01:45:08] Definitely take that back to the drawing board.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] I think like God knows you husband and wife, you're both on the celestial but you stay apart. Because only in the celestial kingdom can you actually be together. Makes no sense.

Dre Nord [01:45:19] Right?

John Dehlin [01:45:20] We don't think that through. Anyway, keep going. So your mom. I don't mean to take this off your mom.

Dre Nord [01:45:24] No, no, not at all. Yeah. So my mom had really just come to the fact that it was better for her to just end it Leave her four children and husband with a death by suicide. Mom. And go to the telestial kingdom because there was nothing she could do to get to the celestial kingdom as hard as she tried.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] What was making her feel so inadequate?

Dre Nord [01:45:46] You know, it's funny because I actually talked to her this morning and I was asking her, because, you know, it's been 17 years since that happened, and I said, mom, I want you to go back to when you were standing on that mountain about to jump. What were you thinking? And she said, you know, I was thinking I have no value. Everything I've been taught to do and everything I've been taught to be, I just can't be it. I can't do it. And she said it was actually a Relief Society lesson that the sister in our ward who was teaching it, they were talking about eternal marriage. And she said, you know, if you're unhappy in your marriage now, you just gotta stick it out because you'll be happy on the other side. And quoted Brigham Young in talking about, you know, how basically it'll all work out when you get to the other side. Just stick through it. Because eternal marriage can be happy as long as you are following the principles of the gospel. And my mom was in a deeply unhappy marriage. And for her, that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. That was the last thing on the shelf, was, okay, I have to face eternity with a person that I'm. That I don't want to be with. And divorce was not an option. And so it would rather be death than to shake the boat. That was the better option for her. And that was really when I started my faith crisis.

John Dehlin [01:47:24] So one quick thing before we jump there, and this is for both of you. What are all the ways that a woman can feel inadequate in Mormonism?

Dre Nord [01:47:34] How can we not?

John Dehlin [01:47:35] No, really. Rifle them off. Rifle them off.

Dre Nord [01:47:37] Okay.

Heather Gay [01:47:39] Body.

Dre Nord [01:47:39] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:47:40] What do you mean not having a great body? Like, small.

Dre Nord [01:47:45] Your outward appearance.

Heather Gay [01:47:46] Yeah. Your physical appearance, your inability to get pregnant, your fertility. Your lack of fertility, Your inability to bounce back after baby.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] You guys go back and forth.

Heather Gay [01:47:56] Breastfeed. Yeah. Hit a couple.

Dre Nord [01:47:57] Yeah. I think to support your husband, to be successful,

Heather Gay [01:48:03] to be a nurturing, diligent mother with successful, well balanced, righteous children.

Dre Nord [01:48:08] Stay close to your parents at the same time as raising your own children.

Heather Gay [01:48:13] Your home is a temple on earth. You know, the holidays are a time of great rejoicing and joy. And you're a good cook. You're good at. You keep your home. It's a house of Order.

Dre Nord [01:48:25] Yep.

Heather Gay [01:48:25] You know.

Dre Nord [01:48:26] Yeah. But then also maintaining like a great social standing, you know, nurturing your friendships and being active in your ward, calling, being known as the person in your ward. That is the go to for, you know, fun parties and for. You're always in a great executive role. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] What do you mean?

Heather Gay [01:48:43] You're never a nursery worker. You're either Young Women's president or Young Women's presidency. You're Relief Society president, Relief Society presidency. Your gospel doctrine teacher, which is very rare to be a woman and a

Dre Nord [01:48:54] gospel doctrine teacher, which you were.

Heather Gay [01:48:55] Which I was.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] Wow.

Heather Gay [01:48:57] And you know, I was in. I mean, just all of those things. Your ability to craft, your ability to sew, your ability to cook, your ability to clean, your ability to not only do all these things, but to love doing them and to feel fulfilled doing them. You have to love it and to feel satisfied doing. And to do them with a song in your heart and a smile on your face. And to feel it, to not fake it. Nobody, you know, to feel it and to embrace it. To be a domestic goddess.

Dre Nord [01:49:26] And certainly we're not speaking for all women of the church. This is just Heather's and my experience, which was very, very similar.

John Dehlin [01:49:32] You are speaking for a lot of

Dre Nord [01:49:33] women, I think a lot.

John Dehlin [01:49:34] What about your husband? What about pleasing your husband?

Dre Nord [01:49:36] Oh, well, you have to have. Want to have sex all the time. Be like a total.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] What do you mean by that?

Dre Nord [01:49:40] Like just on the ready and you have to. It's like lady in the streets freakin the sheets. Like you have to.

Heather Gay [01:49:46] Angel in the kitchen, whore in the bedroom. Yeah. Like I've never. I'm the never say no girl. Same never say to my husband.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] What would you mean by that?

Heather Gay [01:49:54] I would never turn my husband down for sex. It wouldn't matter if he wanted it in a car, in a bar. He didn't. But. And maybe that's why I was the never say no girl. But like I was able to effectively have sex anytime, any place, any condition, even if I had had the flu, you know what I mean? Like, and I mean normally it doesn't coincide, but you know what I mean? I would have, like I used to when I was recent, like newly divorced. I'd say if you want to like a partner, you want a married someone that's been married. Because wives have sex with bad breath, postpartum depression, you know, snot on their faces. Like they can drop down and do it anytime, any place, anywhere. Because that's what I. That was my divine role.

Dre Nord [01:50:42] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:50:42] You know, I would Never have said that.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] What was your version of that?

Dre Nord [01:50:46] Same. Never say no. And if I did say no, there was huge shame. And so then I just didn't say no. Like, that was just the expectation. If we waited all this time. We waited all this time and we were virgins and we, you know, didn't do anything bad. And so now let's open the floodgates. And now this is my reward for being so virtuous.

Heather Gay [01:51:09] And isn't it so much better that we only know it with each other?

Dre Nord [01:51:14] I hated it. It was the worst. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] Yeah. So, like, what? So I'm sure there are some Mormons who have great sex lives and some Mormons that don't have great sex lives, but for you guys?

Heather Gay [01:51:25] Well, I thought I had a sex life. Cause I had no. I had nothing to compare it to.

John Dehlin [01:51:30] So you were happy? You were fulfilled, filled?

Dre Nord [01:51:32] I. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:51:34] I mean, yeah, for what I knew. In the context of what I knew, you know, if you've. If you've never eaten outside of, you know, a McDonald's. McDonald's. Does it satisfy your hunger? Absolutely. Is it?

Dre Nord [01:51:47] You know, And I wouldn't know for you, Dre. No, it was. Sex was a terrible experience for me. I think I was, like I said, a very young, dumb, inexperienced child. And I had no business going from zero to 60. I was someone that needed years of prep for this. It was too much, and it was scary, and it wasn't fun, and it was shameful for me. And because I felt, like, dumb and like, I didn't know how to do it, and it didn't feel good to me. And then my husband would say, well, you're such a Mormon. And then there was shame around that. Like, oh, I'm just being a Mormon. And to his credit, we were virgins. And I'm sure he was frustrated with me. Like, come on, we waited all this time, and now you're gonna not want to just immediately have sex with me right this second all the time? Because he was a 22 year old boy. Of course that's what he wanted. But for me, I needed some time. It was really tough for me, and it was. I never. I never got it while we were married. It was never easy for me, and there was a lot of shame around it. And also I think there was just shame for me around sex in general, because I just thought it was bad.

John Dehlin [01:53:09] Cause you're taught growing up, what, that

Dre Nord [01:53:11] it's the worst sin. Like, worse than murder?

Heather Gay [01:53:14] Yeah. It keeps you out of.

Dre Nord [01:53:15] To have sex outside of wedlock. And even though we were having sex within the marital boundary, it was really tough for me to shift my thinking. It really was. So that was never.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] So once you, once you're able to have sex, you still feel what?

Dre Nord [01:53:32] Shame. And like it was bad. Yeah, like it was bad. And that it was not okay for me to express myself that way. Even I was never taught how to express that.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] You're not a sexual being as a Mormon. What are you?

Dre Nord [01:53:45] Just holy and perfect and virtuous and creative being.

Heather Gay [01:53:50] You're like a life bearing being, you know?

Dre Nord [01:53:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:54] Any other expectations of Mormon women? We could probably go on all day, but any other important ones?

Heather Gay [01:54:00] I think the hardest thing is to love it, you know, because we can do it all. You know what I mean? Like, we can do the dishes.

Dre Nord [01:54:07] We have babies.

Heather Gay [01:54:09] We can have babies. You know, we can dress them and make sure they're at school on time. But to love it, to love it, because that's where the shame comes in. Like, you know, I love my children. I do not like the menial work surrounding what it takes to keep them alive every day, you know, and that it is 100% solely my responsibility and that it is also a reflection of my character and my worthiness, my ability to sing while I do the dishes, you know, when I really just want to be on my phone, on my bed, you know, and to not love it. And so I would try to find ways to love it. And that's like fitting a square peg in a round hole, you know, because that's where I think we really herald Mormon women. They do it, but they do it with a smile and they are genuine. You know, we recognize, like the doldrums of domestic domesticity. Right? But if you're a true, if you're, you know, if you, if you've got your priorities in the right place, you are devoted to your children and to everything surrounding them. And you're happy. You don't feel annoying, like, oh, did you hear that band of lawyers running wild outside? You know what I mean? Or do you hear those business women clicking in their heels?

Dre Nord [01:55:29] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:55:29] You know, you have date night and you live for. And you live your life and you live for. And you, you know, you live to. I'm losing my lashes. I'm crying so much. You live, you know, with this joy, joy of service, joy of your calling, joy of your husband. And like a lot of times you have to truly detach. Like when I just sat here saying, I never said no. How is that intimacy? I couldn't ever even tell my husband what I was thinking or feeling. The fact that he didn't care what I was feeling is lack of intimacy. And the whole reason you have sex is to be intimate.

Dre Nord [01:56:07] Mm.

Heather Gay [01:56:08] And I used to think that made me such a cool pioneer woman that I never said no. You know why you never said no? Because nobody ever asked you either way. You know what I mean?

Dre Nord [01:56:18] But also, you never say no because you don't want to piss off your husband and you don't want to have.

Heather Gay [01:56:24] You don't want to have a peg for him to hang his cap on for. Why you, you know, are. Something to say, you know?

Dre Nord [01:56:33] Totally. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure on women in the church to show up a certain way, and my mom's living proof of that. She literally was willing to end her life because she could not live up to the standards, Whether self imposed or not, you know, they were what she felt.

John Dehlin [01:56:52] So these were the types of things pressuring, bearing down on my mom.

Dre Nord [01:56:55] Yes. But then on top of that, you know, she was a sinner. She. And it was. Even the things that she was telling me in the. On the phone today, I was like, these are ridiculous. That she would go to coffee and cocoa in Provo and order a cappuccino mixed with hot chocolate and just tell us it was. It was hot chocolate. But then suffer huge, horrible guilt and then beat herself up about it and. And have to repent and have to. You know, I've broken the word of wisdom. It's such a silly thing, you guys. It's a drink that makes you a little buzzed for 20 minutes.

John Dehlin [01:57:28] What people don't understand is it can keep you from getting married in the temple, which can keep you out of the celestial kingdom.

Dre Nord [01:57:33] Yes.

Heather Gay [01:57:34] There are no small sins. I'm so sick of a lot of people, since I started doing the show, being like, oh, we weren't like that. We drink coffee. My dad drinks coffee all the time, and he still goes to the temple. Yeah. And I'm like, well, then you're not following the doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] Guess what? That wasn't how we were raised.

Heather Gay [01:57:47] That's not. And that's like, it depends on your bishop. Well, I want to move where you live. That's not a true and guiding principle then.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] I'm 51. I've still never tried alcohol or cigarettes or any type of drug. That's. I have drinks.

Dre Nord [01:58:00] I mean, missing out.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] We got some in the car. No, I know. I'm just saying that's how it's so in Me that I still haven't wanted to try those things yet.

Dre Nord [01:58:10] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] But, I mean, yeah, coffee, tea. I would have never. Like, one time I saw. I was playing basketball with some friends. I saw a little jug of some brown stuff. I thought it was like, root beer or whatever. It was tea. I was mortified. I spit it out, like, get it

Dre Nord [01:58:26] out of my mouth.

John Dehlin [01:58:28] This is bad. You know, it was just tea. But it's that serious, right?

Family Struggles and a Mother's Crisis

Dre Nord [01:58:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:32] Yeah. So your mom was drinking coffee?

Dre Nord [01:58:34] So my mom was, like, every once in a while going to coffee and cocoa in Provo. And, you know. But then more than that, it really was the Relief Society lesson of facing eternity, and that was too much for her. And I think when that happened, and there were a lot of other things that were part of that that are private that I can't share. But, like. But I had kind of that come to Jesus moment where I thought, okay, do I really want to be a part of something that would cause the person that I love and respect the most in my life who I think is the very best human on this earth?

Heather Gay [01:59:13] She was a great mom.

Dre Nord [01:59:14] She was a wonderful moment. And righteous. Really righteous.

John Dehlin [01:59:20] And feeling like dirt.

Dre Nord [01:59:22] Yeah. Is this okay for me to be a part of this? And part of my mom's therapy after the suicide attempt was exploring outside of the church. Her therapist just said, gosh, well, maybe the answer is to not worry so much about being a good Mormon. Maybe you can just be a good person and let's start there and.

Heather Gay [01:59:45] But the best people are Mormon. That's what would always get me back.

Dre Nord [01:59:49] I know.

John Dehlin [01:59:50] What do you mean, Heather?

Heather Gay [01:59:51] Just like, how can I be a good person if I'm betraying my faith?

Dre Nord [01:59:54] It's still a lower level. Yeah, it's still.

Heather Gay [01:59:56] But, like, wouldn't the best person just live, you know, and succeed under these principles?

Dre Nord [02:00:04] But that's the thing, is that my mom was the best person. And that's what shook me, is I was like, whoa, if this person isn't good enough, I'm screwed. Because she's amazing and she tries. And isn't that what it's about is trying? And it still wasn't good enough. This is a person who has so much value, that feels that she has no value. How can this be good? And I think that in her therapy, it was. Okay. Okay, let's take Mormon off the list. We're not even gonna deal with that right now.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] We're a therapist in Utah.

Heather Gay [02:00:41] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:00:41] It was really. It was a blessing for sure and saved her life. Truly. And so let's not worry about being a Mormon. Let's worry about being a good person. And let's start there. And as. And I remember she came out to Virginia to visit my husband and I. We were living out there and she wasn't wearing her garments.

John Dehlin [02:01:01] Tell people what garments are.

Dre Nord [02:01:02] So garments are the sacred underwear that Mormons wear when they receive their endowment. And it's, you know, protects you. And it's a reminder, an outward reminder of our inward feelings.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] Are they sexy?

Dre Nord [02:01:15] Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Heather Gay [02:01:17] Burdensome.

Dre Nord [02:01:19] Yeah. So they are like a cap sleeve top with. And some of them have a scoop neck. So you can get away with wearing like a V neck or something a little sexier. And a cap sleeve. So no tank tops. And then kind of like a biker short.

Heather Gay [02:01:33] To your knees.

Dre Nord [02:01:34] Yeah, to your knees. I would always get the extra small.

Heather Gay [02:01:36] Yeah. I mean, there's ways around it, but it is supposed to be like the symbol is at your knee.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] So what about miniskirts?

Dre Nord [02:01:42] Oh, no, those are not happening for short shorts. No.

Heather Gay [02:01:44] Women find ways to get around it, but they'd rather wear garments inappropriately and be wearing them than.

John Dehlin [02:01:51] So what's the workaround?

Heather Gay [02:01:52] The workaround is you buy three or four size smaller. And you also buy petite. Cause it's cut shorter from the waist to the crotch, so you can hike them up.

Dre Nord [02:01:58] But I, like, now a lot of, like, a lot of people will just optionally wear garments.

Heather Gay [02:02:04] Garment optional is like a new thing.

Dre Nord [02:02:06] Yeah. And like, like, oh, I'm wearing these, this outfit for my. For my blog post or for my Instagram picture.

Heather Gay [02:02:11] This is my job. And if I were a swimmer, I wouldn't be wearing garments when I swim. And my job is to model clothing. So I don't wear garments for this picture, but I wear them when it matters.

Dre Nord [02:02:19] Right. But that was not the kind of Mormon I would get the extra smalls. I'm not gonna lie that I would do that. But I would never wear a tank top. I would never wear shirts. I would never say, like, oh, these are the shorts that I'm gonna wear today with regular underwear. I didn't own regular underwear. I just wear my garments.

Heather Gay [02:02:33] Yeah. I still barely own regular underwear.

Dre Nord [02:02:37] I know, I'm so sorry. But like, but my mom, when she showed up, did she wore garments?

Heather Gay [02:02:43] No.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] Okay. Okay.

Dre Nord [02:02:44] But it's like a new, like bare. Like, it's weird to me.

Heather Gay [02:02:47] Yeah. Like I. I have my daughter's underwear. Like, I can't. Like, I don't. Like, like, I don't think I could, like.

Dre Nord [02:02:54] I don't know. You're not fully committed to not.

John Dehlin [02:02:57] It's hard. It took me years.

Heather Gay [02:02:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] It's like 10 years before I started. Stopped wearing garments. After I stopped believing. It's like, 10 years.

Heather Gay [02:03:04] I mean, it's just. Yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:03:07] Yeah. But, yeah, the garments thing was weird, and it was very triggering for me to see my mom. I noticed she raised her arms to do something, and she. I could see that she wasn't wearing garments.

John Dehlin [02:03:18] What does that mean to you when a devout Mormon mom is not wearing her garments? What does that mean?

Dre Nord [02:03:23] Oh, I was like, something's wrong. Something's wrong. Something's going on with Mom. And I knew she had already, like, tried to kill herself. And I was like, what is happening? This my world. I threw up. I, like, ran to the bathroom. I was so upset. I got myself so worked up that I threw up.

John Dehlin [02:03:41] Because of her underwear.

Dre Nord [02:03:42] Because of my mom's underwear. That is crazy, first of all. But, like, that's how deep I was in it. And I got really upset with her and, like, actually yelled at her. I remember sitting in my kitchen, in my apartment and saying, mom, what makes you so special that you don't have to wear your garments? And she said, dre, what makes you so special that you get to wear your garments and be so much better than me? Are you better than me?

John Dehlin [02:04:11] Oh. And I was like, this is after she had attempted.

Dre Nord [02:04:15] Yeah. And I was. And again, I had to check myself, say, gosh, do I really want to be a part of something that. That is telling me that my very favorite person in the world, who I'm obsessed with and want to be like, now she not only wanted to kill herself, but now I think I'm better than her. Do I really, really want to be a part of that? And so that happened. I ended up moving home because then my parents decided to divorce because my mom was leaving the church.

John Dehlin [02:04:47] Is that why your dad's like, I'm

Dre Nord [02:04:50] not gonna do that? Yeah. And she. Yeah, she gave him the. You know, she said, I'm going to leave the Mormon Church. We can stay married.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] To save her life.

Dre Nord [02:04:58] To save her life. It was not healthy for her at all. And he wanted to stay in the church, and so they decided to divorce. And I moved home to help with the divorce because, you know, I was an adult, and I was also pregnant with my oldest daughter, and I was studying in school. Well, I don't even know if I was going to school at the time. I think I was Fake going to school. Like, I liked to think I was going to school, but it was like, as soon as. After I have this baby, then. And after John gets his degree, then I'll go back. I'll go back. But I always had a passion for Middle Eastern culture. I grew up, like I said, in a predominantly Arab and Persian area. I love D.C. i always thought we'd go back to D.C. did you know

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Omar Cater and Nancy Cater?

Dre Nord [02:05:47] No.

John Dehlin [02:05:48] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:05:48] We're at.

John Dehlin [02:05:49] There's. There's a Mormon Stories episode that's one of my favorites.

Dre Nord [02:05:52] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:52] Omar Cater, like, was born in the West Bank.

Dre Nord [02:05:54] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] But moved to Provo. So he. Or. Or his dad was born in the West Bank. And so this is like an Arab family growing up in Provo, Utah.

Heather Gay [02:06:01] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] And he went back and became, like, a big wig. He knew Yasser Arafat. Like, okay, so he was a Palestinian. He married a white Mormon woman. He was a professor at byu. Then they kicked him out. Like, it's a great. Omar Kader and Nancy Kader. Great episode. He was a D.C. arab Mormon.

Dre Nord [02:06:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:06:18] So I just thought you might have heard of him.

Dre Nord [02:06:20] I mean. Yeah, I was. I'm surprised that I haven't. Yeah, a little bit. But anyway, I. I was. That's what I wanted to do with my life. I wanted to study ancient texts. I wanted to study, you know, every. I loved everything.

Heather Gay [02:06:37] Book of Abraham, you'll be fine.

Dre Nord [02:06:39] But dude, I did, though, that was my favorite book, Book of Abraham.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] Tell our listeners what that is.

Dre Nord [02:06:44] So it is the first book in the Pearl of Great Price.

John Dehlin [02:06:48] It's what. For Mormons.

Dre Nord [02:06:49] So it's a separate little part of the canon. Yeah. Of the triple combo of the Book of Mormon. Oh, it's not that.

John Dehlin [02:06:59] Doctrine and Covenants.

Dre Nord [02:06:59] Doctrine and Covenants.

Heather Gay [02:07:00] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:07:00] And Pearl of Great Price. And the Pearl of Great Price was found. Well, so Joseph Smith found these scrolls and he translated them.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] Mummy scrolls.

Dre Nord [02:07:09] Mummy scrolls. Yeah. It was on a traveling bandwagon, kind of wagon show of, you know, Egyptian artifacts, which was so popular during those times. And at the time, actually, the Egyptian hieroglyphic code had never. The Rosetta Stone hadn't been found, and the code had not been cracked. So nobody could actually translate Egyptian hieroglyphics at the time. So when Joseph Smith got ahold of them, he was like, I know exactly what this is. I'm going to translate it. And this is what it is. It's the Book of Abraham. The Book of Moses. What else is that? It just those two?

John Dehlin [02:07:41] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:07:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] And because that was Joseph's big thing is that part of how he got his reputation was that he was a seer, that he could look into the stone and translate ancient languages.

Dre Nord [02:07:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:07:54] And that's what he did with the Book of Mormon. He got these golden plates that had reformed Egyptian and he had the power to see into the stone in the hat and then to translate the Book of Mormon. And now he's got these papyrus.

Heather Gay [02:08:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] And he's gonna do the same thing with them.

Dre Nord [02:08:07] Yes. And so that's why it was my. I actually loved it even more than the Book of Mormon. Even though I loved the Book of Mormon, I loved the Book of Abraham because it talks specifically about the discovery of Egypt, which I was, you know, so in love with Egypt. And it was, you know, the daughter of Ham, Egyptus. And that was named after, you know, Egypt was named after Egyptus. And it was my favorite story in the scriptures. And I know it was rough, but I loved the ancient texts. But I loved all ancient texts. But specifically, I did love the Book of Abraham because it spoke to me and because it was part of my belief.

John Dehlin [02:08:43] And the teachings too, in it.

Dre Nord [02:08:44] Yeah, the teachings as well.

Heather Gay [02:08:45] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:08:47] But I really just loved the history of it. And so of all of the ancient texts, that was my favorite. But I loved all of them. I did not. You know, I liked all of them. So I remember I was sitting in my bedroom and I was studying an ancient Egyptian te. I had gone over to the Barnes and Noble by BYU off of university and somebody had recommended some books if I was going to be preparing to go into an Egyptian program at byu. And he had recommended these books. And so I was looking through and I was studying them and I recognized some pages and I was reading them and I'm like, okay, where have I seen this before? And it's these funerary prayers and talking about the death rituals and all of this. And I was like, where have I. I've read this before? And it dawned on me and I was like, oh, my gosh, I know what this is. This is exactly the same.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] Like, were they the facsimiles?

Dre Nord [02:09:45] Yeah, this is the facsimiles.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] Egyptian hieroglyphs that are in the Book of Abraham.

Dre Nord [02:09:51] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:09:51] Look like primitive drawings or like cave drawings really, that are actual images in the Pearl of great price in the Book of Mormon.

Dre Nord [02:09:58] And it's. They're just like, yeah, copies of what the scrolls said and. But they're all in hieroglyphics. And I was very confused because the book that I Was reading, was telling me that this was funerary prayers. And I was like, this is wrong. They. Someone got this wrong.

Heather Gay [02:10:17] That the pearl Great Price was wrong. It was like, this is wrong.

Dre Nord [02:10:19] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [02:10:20] Instead of being like God and Jesus and whoever. Abraham or Moses or whatever, it's like Anubis and. And Isis. Wait a minute. They got this wrong. Those Egyptologists translated the papyrus rocks.

Dre Nord [02:10:32] I really did.

Heather Gay [02:10:33] Someone needs to show them the Pearl of Great price.

Dre Nord [02:10:36] No, I was upset because I was like, they can't be publishing this. How are they teaching this in school? And this is wrong. And I went and got my Pearl of Great Price, and I opened it up, and sure enough. Sure enough. And I was like, well, I. You know, I'm gonna debunk this, Dre Robinson. I am going to. I just gotta let these Egyptologists know they've got it all wrong. And that truly sent me down the rabbit hole. Because then I started doing some research, and I learned about the Rosetta Stone. I knew about the Rosetta Stone, but I learned about the timeline of the Rosetta Stone and how that coincided with Joseph Smith's translation of the Pearl of Great Price. And then I, you know, read. There was no CS letter at the time, but I read the. And that was.

John Dehlin [02:11:25] Which said what?

Dre Nord [02:11:25] Which said. Because I guess there was a rumor, like in the 80s or something that, like, the Smithsonian was using the Book of Mormon and, like, church documents to try to, like, find historical sites in Central America. Yeah. And so Smithsonian came out and said, absolutely not. That's not what we're doing. And these are the reasons why. And it was a little. Kind of like a bit of a CES letter, junior that kind of pointed out the reasons why they would never use the Book of Mormon and why. Why it was historically inaccurate. And it was very upsetting to me because not only.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] And how old are you? How old are you?

Dre Nord [02:12:04] So I was pregnant. So I was 22.

John Dehlin [02:12:06] Okay.

Dre Nord [02:12:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:07] What year was that?

Dre Nord [02:12:08] 2002.

John Dehlin [02:12:09] Okay.

Dre Nord [02:12:10] And it was devastating to me. I was, first of all, wrong. And I was not used to being wrong. I was always right, and I was tricked, and I had. I mean, I even. I cringe when I even look at my Book of Abraham. It's highlighted and noted and every footnote and researched. And I thought, oh, my God, I. All of this time. All of this time that I've been doing this, and it's not even real. And I felt so dumb. And smart girls don't like to feel dumb. And I felt really dumb and tricked and lied To. And I was disappointed in myself because I sh.

John Dehlin [02:13:03] What'd you conclude that led to the disappointment? You were dumb. Why?

Dre Nord [02:13:07] Oh, because I didn't realize that it wasn't real.

Heather Gay [02:13:10] Like, Joseph Smith made it up.

Dre Nord [02:13:12] That it was made up. Yeah. That there was no historical basis that ever would prove that the Book of Mormon would be true.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] So your Book of Abraham stuff bled

Dre Nord [02:13:21] into the Book of Mormon? Yeah, it was all of it, all at once. And so my whole entire world came crashing down.

John Dehlin [02:13:26] Can I. Can I just quickly say why you weren't dumb? So.

Dre Nord [02:13:29] Yes, please, please, please.

John Dehlin [02:13:32] So I, John de Lynn, lost my faith in 2001. Right. I was 31 years old, and I'd been in the church all my life. Now, this was. The Internet had been created, but there was no Mormon Stories podcast. There was no CES letter, There was no Mormon Think website. There was none of this stuff. None of these. No Year of polygamy, no John De Lynn, no K. Kelly, none of that stuff. Right. And the only way you can learn about this stuff is in, like, certain books that you would never have heard of normally and that were totally forbidden if you had. Or like, through Sunstone or Dialogue magazine, which by then the church had denounced.

Dre Nord [02:14:08] Yeah, I was not Sunstone at all. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:10] And so for you to. For you to go through this in your early 20s, right. In 2002, ish is a really big deal, because there are people just now in their 60s and 70s figuring this out, but you figured it out in your early 20s, before the Internet. The Mormon Internet really exploded. And I'm just going to say that's rare. That's rare, and that's actually commendable. I'm not trying to just blame blow sunshine up your shirt, but that is. That's remarkable.

Dre Nord [02:14:42] No, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:14:43] And it takes courage to be will. And I think probably your mom having that experience and leaving the church maybe cracked you open and made you open to that. But many, many, many, many people like you, Heather, on your mission, you. You. There's a moment in time where you're like, wait a minute. Is it even possible that this isn't true? And most Mormons are like, like, wait a minute, rewind. There's no way. It's not true. I'm going back on plan. It's a rare Mormon that can go. I'm actually going to keep pulling this thread and see what unravels because the stakes are so incredibly high. You. And you didn't have to worry about losing the love of your mother, but you probably had to Worry about what your dad was going to think. And then there's all your whole community, extended family, friends. It's a big, big deal. So it is commendable that you were willing to keep pulling that thread.

Dre Nord [02:15:35] Oh, thank you. And I certainly don't mean to disrespect.

John Dehlin [02:15:38] Disrespect other people. No, I was 31.

Dre Nord [02:15:41] Like, you know, no, but that. But me as who I was at the time, I've. I felt deeply betrayed by my. Myself, but also by my parents and. And especially my dad because, like, my dad's so smart. Smart, and he. He's so well educated, and I just didn't understand how he couldn't have caught this and why didn't he figure it out first and.

John Dehlin [02:16:10] Because it's not an intelligence thing. Let me just be clear. No, it's not an intelligence thing. And I. I don't even mean to frame it as courage. You have to have the right life circumstances happen at the right time with the right availability of information or the right influences in your life. And if all those things line up. But there are brilliant people that never figure this out. They go to their death, and they're brilliant, like, literally brilliant. They didn't have the right people come into their lives or the right things happen with their parents. And sometimes it's just luck as well. So I don't mean to, like, belittle anyone who figures it out later or still hasn't figured it out, you know, because that would be us. Heather took us longer. Right. But. But. And not that there's one thing to figure out, because everybody's gonna arrive at a different place. But, But. But you forge. I don't know if you feel fortunately. But you had the right circumstances.

Dre Nord [02:17:00] I did.

John Dehlin [02:17:00] That kind of made. Made you open.

Dre Nord [02:17:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:02] Where others might not have been.

Divorce, Dating, and Life After the Church

Heather Gay [02:17:03] It's interesting to me, like, the context that both of you are discussing and because I thinking, like, you used the word luck and you were like, you discovered this. Like, Ben, were you. Did you regret discovering it? Did you ever think, I want to not discover this and, like, shut it and pretend I didn't hear. It's like when you pick up the phone and your mom's talking to another man. Hang it up, pretend you never heard it. Go back to the bit of, you know, blissful state of contentment that you were existing in before you saw those funerary.

Dre Nord [02:17:31] Well, I think that that's. I mean, exactly what is the right time, right circumstances? Because I think had my. I not already been questioning, I think I probably would have just been like. Like, don't go there. Just like I did in the temple. Figure out a way to talk yourself out of it. Or, you know. And even when I discussed it with my dad, you know, he just said, dre, I just have to trust. I have faith. God will work it out. I know it doesn't make sense. I know it doesn't make sense. And you can give me all of your evidence, and I'm still going to believe that Joseph Smith translated that. And I don't know how. I don't know why. It's. Why hieroglyphics show that it's funerary prayers. I don't know why. And it doesn't matter.

Heather Gay [02:18:18] It doesn't matter.

Dre Nord [02:18:18] But to me, it mattered. And I think it mattered because I was already having that cognitive dissonance of, is this really who I am? Is this really what wasn't working for you? No. No. But I do think that because I went down that rabbit hole. Gosh, it shook me, and it shook me fast. And I was out immediately.

John Dehlin [02:18:43] While married.

Dre Nord [02:18:44] While married.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] How's husband taking this?

Dre Nord [02:18:47] So he was like. I was like. I told him what I had found, and I said, I don't think I can be in the church anymore. And he said, okay, that's fast. Yeah, he was.

John Dehlin [02:18:56] So he wasn't as devout.

Dre Nord [02:18:57] He was not, no. He was doing it for me. And we ended up getting divorced. You know, I think. I think because we got married so young.

Heather Gay [02:19:06] I know why you got divorced. Stopped living the principles of the gospel.

Dre Nord [02:19:10] But, you know, we were each other's first boyfriend and girlfriend, and we knew nothing about life. And here we were, you know, 23 and 24 years old, and we had this baby. And now everything that our whole marriage was built on, we didn't believe anymore. And it didn't take long for us to realize that we, the kind of people that we wanted to be outside of the church, were very different than, like, what would work for us. Like, he wanted to be a different ex Mormon than what I wanted to be. And it just, you know, it. It wasn't right for us. We were far too young to be married in the first place, and so we. We both left the church together. I'm really grateful we did, because it would have been. Been immensely harder to do that alone. But once we were out of the church, our time was done together, and so we did divorce. And then I got to have the fun experience of not only being an ex Mormon divorced person, but also a single mom.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] When you Say fun. Do you mean it or not mean it?

Dre Nord [02:20:20] No, it was. You know what? In retrospect, there were a lot of really fun things.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] What was hard? Hard or unpleasant or whatever.

Dre Nord [02:20:26] Disappointing my family. Yeah. And, like, losing all my friends. And why? Just because we weren't in the same group anymore.

John Dehlin [02:20:36] Because you left the church, not because you got divorced.

Dre Nord [02:20:38] It was all of it. It was all of it. Because then, like, what? When we were married, we hung out with other married couples in our ward, and those were our friends. And then we leave the church, we're not going to the ward anymore. And then. And now we. We're divorced. So now I'm single.

John Dehlin [02:20:53] Your friends. Oftentimes couples don't want to hang out with singles.

Heather Gay [02:20:55] No, all the time, John. They don't want to hang out singles.

John Dehlin [02:20:58] Yeah, you come hang out with me and Margi anytime.

Dre Nord [02:21:03] But it was. Yeah, it was rough and it was tough to navigate and. But the. I'm gonna be totally honest, the hardest thing was the family. Disappointing the family and.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Meaning your mom or your.

Dre Nord [02:21:18] No, not my mom, because my mom had left. But my dad.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] Yeah. About the church.

Dre Nord [02:21:22] About the church and the divorce.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:21:24] I was really scared to tell my dad that not only had I left the church, but also a few months later, sorry, dad. Getting divorced now.

John Dehlin [02:21:33] You know what's hard is everybody's like, oh, of course you leave the church, you're going to get divorced. It's like. But you could. They could be totally separate things. You can leave the church because it's not true, and then get divorced because you realize you maybe never should have been married in the first place or got married way too young. But then Mormons just make that connection where it's just like, oh, yeah, you stop living the gospel, your marriage isn't gonna last. So you. It's your fault because you did live the gospel, right?

Dre Nord [02:21:57] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:21:59] Does that resonate with you?

Heather Gay [02:22:00] Yeah, absolutely. You know what came first? The chicken or the egg? You know, like, you just. You can't even decipher because. And also, you can't be really happy. You can be caught up in the things of the world, but this isn't real happiness because you're not living the gospel. So whatever fog the devil's put over your brain that makes you think you're content and happy and not suicidal anymore, that's ephemeral. It's going to fade. Because the foundation for happiness in this life is based upon the principles of the gospel and living them, you know, that's like. That's like the circular logic that I can't get out of.

Dre Nord [02:22:31] Yeah. And it's, dude, it's tough to get out of that circular logic. And I, I, yeah, I remember thinking the same thing and, and having to start over. That's the biggest thing is like, if that's your whole identity, then it's like, well, then who actually am I? But I think that that's what was so beautiful about the whole experience, is that like, I got to invent that. And yes, it was on incredibly different terms. I knew I wanted to get my education, that. Why didn't I do that before?

Heather Gay [02:23:02] I didn't.

Dre Nord [02:23:03] Because culturally that was not part of my plan.

Heather Gay [02:23:06] No one encouraged it.

Dre Nord [02:23:07] No one encouraged it.

Heather Gay [02:23:08] Like, I got it because nobody married me.

Dre Nord [02:23:11] Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:23:12] I was just plodding along, you know, aimlessly.

Dre Nord [02:23:15] Really well, and for me, like, yeah, I did the Mrs. Track, you know, I got married and had a baby and that's what I was doing. But once I left the church, I was like, okay, yes, I'm in a different situation than I had hoped. I'm a single mother now with no education and pretty much no life skills and very little self worth.

John Dehlin [02:23:40] In Utah.

Dre Nord [02:23:41] In Utah. So what am I going to do with that? And I'm pretty proud of what I did with it.

John Dehlin [02:23:49] What'd you do?

Dre Nord [02:23:50] So, so glad you asked. So I did go back to school. I went to the U. I studied Arabic and Middle Eastern studies. Yes, again, I always thought I would end up back on the east coast and I did not. But I got my degree and it took me a freaking long time because I was.

John Dehlin [02:24:10] How long did it take?

Dre Nord [02:24:11] It took me like six years.

John Dehlin [02:24:13] That's awesome.

Dre Nord [02:24:14] Yeah. But I was waiting tables in Park City and a single mom dad was out of the picture and so I was doing it by myself and. And dad, I'm meeting my ex, my first husband, my daughter's dad, and he was doing his own thing. And so I handled being the mom and I. But I did it and I did school and.

John Dehlin [02:24:39] Okay, how do you. And I'm making an assumption here. How do you date, go to school and be a single mom?

Dre Nord [02:24:45] I mean, that's why it took six years. But.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] And work and you're working.

Dre Nord [02:24:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] Were you doing all four things?

Dre Nord [02:24:51] Huh?

John Dehlin [02:24:52] Okay, let's just get this clear. Going to school, working, being a single mom, and maybe dating. Were you dating?

Dre Nord [02:24:59] Yeah, Yeah, I was dating.

John Dehlin [02:25:00] And I was a fun. Was it scary?

Dre Nord [02:25:02] It was so fun because I had

John Dehlin [02:25:04] never done that, like having sex with different people.

Dre Nord [02:25:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] Can you do that.

Dre Nord [02:25:09] I mean, was that hard?

John Dehlin [02:25:10] Was it scary to figure that out? Because we're not taught. I still don't know. Like, I've had sex with one woman my entire life.

Dre Nord [02:25:16] Life.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] One woman. I wouldn't know what to do in debate.

Dre Nord [02:25:19] Like, it was, it was how to talk about that.

Heather Gay [02:25:20] It's kind of like riding a bike, Johnny, if you figure it out.

John Dehlin [02:25:23] No, no, I mean like talking about protection, talking about like being an adult, about talking about STIs, like different partners. Like, I don't, you know, that's just like, you don't know any of that stuff. No.

Heather Gay [02:25:34] And that's why the, it's a debaucherous world too. The divorcee is dating. They don't. You know, no one has an adult relationship with sex at all.

Dre Nord [02:25:41] No. And it's, I was even telling Heather the other day, this is one of my biggest beefs with the church, is that like, I was never taught anything about sex. Nothing. And so I had to learn that on my own. That could have been so dangerous for me. I am very shocked that I was not assaulted. Well, actually, guess what? I was assaulted on a date one time and it was awful. But see, I don't even consider that. I don't even consider it. But like, I didn't know anything and so I didn't know how to protect myself. I had to learn by being in it.

John Dehlin [02:26:15] And was it awesome or awful or both?

Dre Nord [02:26:17] Both. I'm so grateful for it. But like, I hope that my daughter, of course I don't like, she's in high school. I don't want her having sex.

John Dehlin [02:26:24] Okay, wait, wait. So Mormon, Mormonism teaches wickedness never was happiness. And you were taught that having sex outside of wedlock was, was next to murder?

Heather Gay [02:26:35] Yeah, it's not wickedness, it's next to murder.

John Dehlin [02:26:37] So, so you were. How did you get comfortable with that? Knowing that you were doing, you know, that your past self would say, you're being evil?

Dre Nord [02:26:45] You know, I had let go of the religion though, I, by that point and see, I, I couldn't have been one that believed and, and then acted out I, I, that I would have had way too much guilt and shame. Yeah, I just could not. But I would have just hated myself. But I think once I let go of the religion and I definitely like went on a little bit of a spiritual journey and I needed that. I don't even know where I stand now as, you know, 40 year old me, but when I first left the church, I did kind of supplement with like, okay, I'm gonna be really spiritual now. I'm gonna pray all the time and I'm gonna be into astrology and I'm going to, you know, still believe in God and all of these things. It's just not gonna be within the context of the church. And so I did have some foundations to like, ground on with that. But I also found and. And considered my own sexual freedom as being very healing.

John Dehlin [02:27:41] Was it good?

Dre Nord [02:27:42] It was great.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] It was healing.

Dre Nord [02:27:43] Yeah, it was. Once I kind of got my footing.

John Dehlin [02:27:46] How can wickedness be healing?

Dre Nord [02:27:48] Because guess what? We are human beings.

John Dehlin [02:27:50] What's healing about having multiple sexual experiences?

Dre Nord [02:27:53] Well, because I realized that it wasn't bad and that it could actually be fun and that I was actually a sexual person.

John Dehlin [02:28:01] Meaning what?

Dre Nord [02:28:02] Like, that I could enjoy sex and not feel shame.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] Right.

Dre Nord [02:28:05] And let loose.

John Dehlin [02:28:06] Right.

Dre Nord [02:28:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:07] Creative and spontaneous.

Dre Nord [02:28:08] Exactly. And. And that I could share something with someone that I was getting to know. I never, like, I wasn't into one night stands or anything like that, but if I had a boyfriend, it would go there. And it was actually really amazing and brought me connection and made me feel closer to that person. And to recognize that, like, this could be such a positive experience outside of the bounds of marriage and be enriching and not the worst thing in the world was so freeing. And I hope that my daughter does not. I hope that she gets to have some sexual experiences when the time is right before marriage, before she gets married.

John Dehlin [02:28:51] Isn't that interesting?

Dre Nord [02:28:52] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:28:53] So un Mormon, right? To say that.

Dre Nord [02:28:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:56] Super taboo.

Dre Nord [02:28:57] But for me, if I would have had sex one time with my first husband, I would have been like, before we got married, I would have been like, oh, that's a no from me dog. Like, this is not gonna work because it's just incompatibility.

John Dehlin [02:29:09] Nothing about him.

Dre Nord [02:29:10] Absolutely. It was not my thing with him. And so I think it's a huge disservice that the church does to women by not encouraging us to be sexual with the right and appropriate boundaries and timing, in the right age, at the right maturity level, with the right person, all of those things. But I think it's a huge disservice that the church does to women by encouraging the besties.

Heather Gay [02:29:36] Much bigger than a disservice because we're taught that, like, something that we're not

John Dehlin [02:29:40] a little bit closer to you.

Heather Gay [02:29:41] Sorry, we're taught that something that we're not in charge of is what our intrinsic value is based on.

Dre Nord [02:29:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:29:47] What do you mean you're not in charge of it?

Heather Gay [02:29:49] Well, it's when you are a woman and you're a virgin, you surrender your chastity. You know, you are. You give it up, right? You put out like you're asking for it, like, all the terms. And that is us surrendering. Like, our power and our value is based on our abilities to submit. You know, it's not even proactive. It's recessive. And we are not empowered with it because once we've given it up, then we're taught we've lost our power. And so that's pretty dangerous position to put our daughters in to say, hold this sacred. Because all of your worth, both to God and to your community and to this family are based on your ability to toe the line and not have sex. And then the second you do have sex, you are used up, you are damaged, you are blighted. We're taking away your title of virgin.

John Dehlin [02:30:53] Chewed gum.

Heather Gay [02:30:54] Your chewed gum. Your elector Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. And you'll be. And you have lost the thing that made you the most powerful.

John Dehlin [02:31:04] And it's like Samson cutting his hair, right?

Dre Nord [02:31:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:07] Lost your power and.

Heather Gay [02:31:08] And now we're going to put you in a submissive relationship where you're going to have to fend for yourself. And the one leverage you had, you lost it. You know?

Dre Nord [02:31:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:19] Your virtue.

Heather Gay [02:31:19] Go with God, little girl.

Dre Nord [02:31:23] Yeah, I know. We only have like 20 more minutes.

John Dehlin [02:31:30] No, no, no. So while I was thinking is we. We could. Like you said, maybe we could do a part two. Is that okay?

Heather Gay [02:31:36] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:31:36] You guys can come back.

Dre Nord [02:31:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] Does that work for.

Dre Nord [02:31:38] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] Okay, so let's talk. Let's talk. Just. Do you. Is there anything else you want to share? Just about, like, navigating life as a single mom before you meet Heather. Anything else? Took your name off the rolls before you meet Heather.

Heather Gay [02:31:53] That's pretty significant. I.

Dre Nord [02:31:55] Me and my ex husband took our names off the records.

John Dehlin [02:31:57] But that's big early and big really early.

Dre Nord [02:32:00] Like at 20.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] How'd you make.

Dre Nord [02:32:01] It was him.

John Dehlin [02:32:02] What'd he say?

Dre Nord [02:32:03] He was just like, I don't want to be a part of this anymore. Let's take our records off.

John Dehlin [02:32:07] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:32:07] Did that scare you at all?

Dre Nord [02:32:10] When I got the letter, yes.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] What does it say? What does the letter say?

Dre Nord [02:32:13] It was like, made me sign that I'm okay to be in outer darkness, essentially.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] It basically says you've lost all your privileges and rights and you're signing away that position in the celestial kingdom. And as long as you just understand that, sign it away. You know what?

Heather Gay [02:32:26] I'm saying you sign with blood. You prick your finger and sign with blood.

John Dehlin [02:32:28] No.

Heather Gay [02:32:29] Does it have pictures of like Johnny Cochran and Jeffrey Dahmer? It had a picture of the Mormon musical a few times. Yes, absolutely.

Dre Nord [02:32:38] No, it had a picture of the Savior and you know, the bluish. The bluish purpley one. The bluish purple, you know, that's really beautiful.

Heather Gay [02:32:46] The handsome.

Dre Nord [02:32:47] The handsome one. Yeah, it had that and non Arabic, but. And I don't think I would have done it if he hadn't. I know I wouldn't have.

John Dehlin [02:32:54] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:32:55] And because I was, I. I wasn't afraid of going to outer darkness, but I was afraid of disappointing my dad.

Heather Gay [02:33:01] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:33:01] That's the truth.

Heather Gay [02:33:02] Yeah. So, yeah, it's not about like that my name on a roll is going to keep me from eternal damnation. It's. I don't want to be in that bucket because I don't know anyone in that bucket except for like Jeffrey Dahmer and Hitler and Johnnie Cochran.

John Dehlin [02:33:20] John De Lynn.

Heather Gay [02:33:21] And John de Lynn. Yeah. And like when I, like when she told me the story of, you know, she said, and then he got a letter from the church and I was like, you know, like, I literally, like, I have like a clutch my pearls moment every time. Cause I'm like, like, you know, that's big.

Dre Nord [02:33:39] That's big.

Heather Gay [02:33:39] It almost kept me from doing anything, you know, with the show and with everything. Because I don't, I don't. I must have hold some belief. Yeah. Oh. But it's really to be eradicated from what created you. You know, this has like, informed every choice in my life and I don't want to negate my mission, my friends, my community, all the service I rendered as a member of the church. I saw your post about, like, thank you, you know, for teaching my kids and like sacrificing your youth, you know, and doing all these things. Thank you for doing that. It's like everything you've done to this point is now null and void because you didn't make it to the end. And I didn't want to give up. And also I didn't have a future. So I was just like, well, all I have are all the accolades of being a great Mormon to this point and then this bleak future, you know, and it's like. And I'm going to lose both of them in the end.

Dre Nord [02:34:38] But I think that that's why it's so important what we're doing in the ex Mormon community of like, I can't

Heather Gay [02:34:44] say I'm an ex Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:34:45] No. You don't have to.

Dre Nord [02:34:45] I know I say we as in me and John, me and Dre is. You know, a lot of us are quick to jump to anger and to just rejection of what we grew up with. That's what I did. I was really deeply angry and, like I said, wanted to crusade for everyone to leave the church. And it wasn't until I could work through some of those feelings and take a softer stance. And even today, talking to my mom, she. I was asking her one of the hardest things about what was the hardest thing about leaving the church. And she said, well, because I had so much love there, and I miss my friends. I miss those teaching experiences. She said, I have no friends now. And she said, I experience greater love now on a universal level because I realized that I was very constricted to just. Or restricted just to this small pool of the LDS Church. And now I get to love humanity and think that humanity is good instead of just the church members are good. But that doesn't mean that I didn't feel deep love in the church and that I didn't have amazing spiritual experiences and that I am not who I am because of it. And I resonate with that. I've worked through my anger, and I feel like now I'm in a place of, like, gosh, I'm so glad that that's how I was raised, in a lot of ways. Ways. There's some things that I feel pissed about still, but. But I learned how to pray. I learned how. A personal revelation. What. What religions teach about that. Not. I don't think a lot of them do. And so I think that we get a leg up because we were raised in the church, in spirituality, you know, and connecting with God and Source universe, whatever you want to call it, or your higher self. And so there's a lot of beauty there. And I think that it doesn't have to be so black and white. We can say thank you next. As Ariana Grande.

Heather Gay [02:36:46] Ariana Grande.

Dre Nord [02:36:47] She's very grateful for what Pete Davidson taught her because we learned something. It's just like an old lover, you know, it doesn't mean we hate them, but like.

Heather Gay [02:36:58] But they hate us.

Dre Nord [02:36:59] But they. They. They do hate us.

John Dehlin [02:37:01] But who hates us?

Heather Gay [02:37:03] I mean. Well, right now, the most trolling I get is from the Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:37:06] You know, what do they say?

Heather Gay [02:37:09] Just condemning me for breaking code, meaning talking about Mormonism in an. In an inappropriate manner. I mean, I don't think I'm ever trying to disrespect them in the four

John Dehlin [02:37:22] Episodes I haven't seen you disrespect Mormons.

Heather Gay [02:37:24] Well, there she has people that think

Dre Nord [02:37:26] contrary to that, she hasn't.

John Dehlin [02:37:30] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:37:30] But I think it's mostly. I'm just not spinning it in the. In a palatable way. I'm just saying. What? Well, this is the doctrine. Gays can't get into heaven, you know, and gays can't participate in the church if they're actively gay. And they're like, don't we love everyone? Yeah, spin it the other way. Oh, we love everyone, but we won't let you into heaven.

Dre Nord [02:37:49] And I'm gonna also dedicate 10% of

Heather Gay [02:37:52] my money to conversion therapy and to, you know, and to.

Dre Nord [02:37:55] Or to going against gay marriage, to putting, you know, flyers out in Arizona and California.

Heather Gay [02:38:00] I'm gonna stand on a corner with a sign that says, you know, doma, you know, Defensive Marriage act, or all these things. Like, there were times when that was part of our calling, you know, that we were asked to do that. And, like, that's just what I think people struggle with, is that I am breaking code and saying, listen, you know,

Dre Nord [02:38:22] you've acknowledged race issues in the church. That's a hard one for people. You've brought up the unfair treatment of gay people in the church. That's a tough one to look at.

Heather Gay [02:38:34] And it's not the treatment. It's the doctrine.

Dre Nord [02:38:35] It's the doctrine. Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:38:36] It's not the treatment.

Dre Nord [02:38:37] You're right.

Heather Gay [02:38:38] Like, they're. I mean, they're wonderful to a point. You know, they. If they're not going to let you bless the sacrament or say a public prayer or work in the nursery, you know, or teach a class. Like, it doesn't matter how devout you are if you're. But like. Like you're going to still get invited to the fun parties, you know, like,

Dre Nord [02:38:54] if, of course, you can still be considered part of the congregation, but doctrinally, it is not. There's no gray area there with the doctrine for homosexuality. And then also, you've gotten a lot of lash, like. Or pushback. Blowback. Thank you. About you stating that there is a standard of perfection in Salt Lake City because of the church, and I don't

Heather Gay [02:39:19] understand why people don't understand. The threefold mission of the church is to proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, and redeem the dead. This is not. I didn't write that.

John Dehlin [02:39:29] No, that's right.

Heather Gay [02:39:29] That's why we're Mormons. To proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, and redeem the dead. So why. What did I Say that has been misconstrued.

John Dehlin [02:39:39] No. And that's so important. Like, I'll just say this really quickly. I don't want to take from what you guys. Everything you guys are sharing is so beautiful. Beautiful. But I'll be honest. I am a prude. I am a conservative, fuddy duddy guy. I would have never watched Real Housewives and I would have like, looked down on and is like low brow, to be honest. Right. Because that's just. I, I, you know, whatever. For whatever reason, I'm Mormon.

Heather Gay [02:40:02] You're superior.

John Dehlin [02:40:04] Exactly.

Dre Nord [02:40:04] Male.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] Exactly. But, but I'm like, you know, like priesthood. Like, it's, it's low brow. It's not righteous. You know, I still got all that in me. Like, I still have a hard time watching a Quentin Tarantino movie. Like, oh, it's too much violence, you know, too much swearing. That makes me uncomfortable. I'm still very Mormon. I'm the world's most Mormon ex Mormon in the world. But what I did is I started taking notes on your awesome episodes and I started writing down the themes that you guys were covering and I'm like, are these Mormon themes? Are these Utah themes? Are these Mormon cultural themes? Right. Alcohol, biggest issue swinging. Big issue in Utah and Arizona and Idaho where Mormons and ex Mormons are. And active Mormons. Addiction. Utah freaking. Leads the nation in prescription drug use and abuse and so. And addiction in so many areas. Superficiality. Right. Plastic, this fakeness. Right. Faith, judging, fidelity, perfectionism. BYU marriage, troubled marriage, polygamy porn. Traditional roles and, you know, eating disorders. I drew some eating disorder stuff. I don't know if they fucked up.

Heather Gay [02:41:14] Yeah, we'll hit it. I'm sure we will. And the slut shaming, honor code, what?

John Dehlin [02:41:17] Exactly. Yeah. So, like, you guys are hitting so many important themes and if anybody tells you you're not representing Real Housewives, you are representing the, the, the good and the bad, the dark and the light. Yeah, yeah. Those are important themes. If somebody tells you perfectionism, female perfectionism, isn't a relevant Mormon Utah women theme, they're completely lying and deluding themselves. Sorry, that's my sermon.

Heather Gay [02:41:47] Thank you for saying that. Because we have heard. We have heard otherwise. Yeah. Perfectionism doesn't exist. And we love gay people and we love black people and we love, love, you know, all people.

Dre Nord [02:42:01] Which of course they do. It's because we're all. Because they're wonderful people. Mormons are great. However, doctrine exists that is problematic if you are gay, a person of color or a woman.

Heather Gay [02:42:19] That's just that's just what it is. You didn't write it. I didn't write it and I lived it and I suspended disbelief to support it and proclaim it. And my money has gone to, to it, to fortify it. And you know, and now it no longer will. So now I've lost my ability to speak on it because of that.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] No, you haven't. You are speaking on it. You're speaking out. And you're not. You have a, you have a very kind, I think, way of talking about Mormonism. I don't think it's mean spirited. I don't think you're trying to take anything down. I don't think you're even trying to be critical. But I think you're just sharing your experience. That's what I get.

Dre Nord [02:43:04] No, Heather's still full Mormon. Like that's what kills me is I'm like, you guys, I'm one of you. She's like going through this actively as we speak, questioning and struggling obviously with where to go from here. And it's really, really tough. And I don't think you're alone, Heather. I, I think a lot of people feel the same way as you.

John Dehlin [02:43:25] Amen. But it feels like betrayal to an orthodox Mormon.

Heather Gay [02:43:30] And I guess, and I understand that, a betrayal to like the tried and trues, you know, but a betrayal to the ones that don't even know what they're speaking out on. You know, the ones that are, that say there's a difference between the culture and the doctrine. Yeah. Because you don't know the doctrine from your ass.

Dre Nord [02:43:49] It's interesting to hear, to see who have been the most vocal people about disagreeing with Heather and her skin.

Heather Gay [02:43:57] I would love for them to disagree and have a discourse they can condemn.

John Dehlin [02:44:01] Talk about you behind your back.

Heather Gay [02:44:02] Yeah. Or to me directly. They send me messages and they do public declarations of how I am, you know, I'm just a horrible human being and obviously like damaging the church.

John Dehlin [02:44:15] You are getting emails like that?

Heather Gay [02:44:17] Yeah, I get DMs every day. Day.

John Dehlin [02:44:19] Oh, no.

Dre Nord [02:44:20] Well, John, have you not heard about the like, influencer backlash from all the Mormon Mommy. From all the influencers. And some, not all. I shouldn't say all because some were dear friends. Totally, totally kind about it. But a lot of the big names, you know, D list celebrities in Utah had terrible things to say about Heather and there are people that don't even know her. And it's always shocking to me how people. I know you experience it too, but like how people can jump to judgment and say things about someone that they've literally never met.

Heather Gay [02:44:56] And they have more in common with me than anyone else on that show. And yet all of their venom is targeted directly at me, which in a way lets me know that I triggering something. And you only trigger things when you hit on the truth. You know, when I say Mormons have horns and tails, I won't get a dm. You know what I mean? Let's be like, oh, that's preposterous. When I say Mormons have a history of misogyny, you know, and homophobia. Like, yeah, they're like, they look it up and then they're like, you whore, you're betraying the faith.

Dre Nord [02:45:35] Yeah, I think it's tough to be Mormon and especially a transitioning Mormon in the public eye. It would be really, really tough in

Heather Gay [02:45:42] Utah on a show called Real Housewives

Dre Nord [02:45:44] of Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [02:45:47] I mean, you. What? I don't know that you're like, that's why I'm so happy to do this interview. And I'm so happy you guys were willing to do this interview because the show doesn't allow for you to show parts of yourself. The show's just not made to show all parts of you. I don't think. Think.

Dre Nord [02:46:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:04] I don't mean to speak for 35 minute episodes, and I'm not saying I'm surprised, but I knew this would happen. But I'm delighted that it, that it. It's so profound. You guys are wise, thoughtful, caring, sensitive, deep, articulate humans. And I'm just so happy that you're able to do that and tell your full story here. Hear. What are you feeling, Heather?

Heather Gay [02:46:31] No, just, you know, nice to hear nice things, you know.

Dre Nord [02:46:39] Yeah. Heather's amazing and she's incredibly brave.

John Dehlin [02:46:43] You haven't been hearing a lot of nice things.

Heather Gay [02:46:44] I'm hearing wonderful things from like the gay community and the Mormon community of, you know, I want to say a lot of disgruntled that aren't would never leave, you know, but. And a lot of ex Mormons and a lot of Mormons, gay Mormons, a lot of. A lot of Mormon marginalized Mormons, but the orthodox ones. And I mean, and it's. Yeah, my family doesn't even speak of it. Like, we don't even speak of it. So, you know, it's just, it is what it is. It's not a forum to teach people about Mormonism, but you'd think people have a little bit more compassion for anyone that's put in as much as you have to defending the faith to maybe explore another option, but there's just absolutely no latitude. Hold the iron rod. The iron rod is the weapon of God. Safely he guide us through.

Dre Nord [02:47:50] Yeah, Heather knows all the hymns.

John Dehlin [02:47:52] Me too.

Heather Gay [02:47:52] Yeah. I don't even need the hymn books, man. Third verse.

Dre Nord [02:47:56] You know, I'm not that good, but I can get most of them.

John Dehlin [02:48:01] Yeah. In a way, Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is not at all Mormon, and in some ways, it's super Mormon. And it's both. It's shock value entertainment, and they're hitting on all the big themes. So you orthodox Mormons, if you think. Think this is nothing about Mormonism, you're a little. With kindness. I say you're a little bit in denial, because there's so much Mormon There. So much Mormonism in this show as

Heather Gay [02:48:28] there should be, because it would be unjust to do a show, a regional show about Salt Lake City without Mormonism being a common thread.

John Dehlin [02:48:38] Yeah, just look deeper. Look deeper. The Mormonism's there. You will find it. If you want to. If you want to see it. Okay, listen, you guys are so lovely. I've loved every minute of our 2 hours and 57 minutes together so far, and I'm just so thrilled you're willing to come back. So here's the thing, listeners. This is part one, but we've still got a lot to go. So we've still. We haven't heard about. You know, there's. There may be more about Dre's experiences as a single mom and what happens in her life, how she ends up meeting. Meeting Heather and how she ends up an entrepreneur after she, like, you know, was. Was stranded as a single mom waiting tables in Park City. Like, I'm all wanting to hear about that. And we got to hear about Heather's marriage. We got to hear about living the Mormon dream. She was a Mormon housewife. And then what happened to her marriage and how it fell apart and then how again, how she met. How she met Dream, how they started a wonderful business together that is successful and thriving. And then how did Heather have a faith crisis? And then there. Maybe there's some Real Housewives stuff that we might touch briefly on, but that's. That's for the show. So if they want to hear. If you want to watch the show. How do they watch the show?

Heather Gay [02:49:54] It's on Wednesday nights on Bravo tv, or you can stream it at any time or, like, get it on YouTube or Hulu, but it's on. It's on Bravo every Wednesday.

Dre Nord [02:50:04] So fun. Heather's the funniest and the coolest.

Heather Gay [02:50:09] My favorite housewife and the most polarizing, as I should be.

John Dehlin [02:50:14] You guys are awesome. Well, thank you so much for having us.

Dre Nord [02:50:16] Thanks for having us.

Heather Gay [02:50:17] I'm looking forward to part two.

John Dehlin [02:50:18] Are you sure?

Heather Gay [02:50:19] Yeah, I want to stay all day.

Dre Nord [02:50:20] I know we're cursing that we have children right now.

Heather Gay [02:50:24] A drill team performance to head to.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:50:27] Otherwise, I'd say because you actually are

John Dehlin [02:50:28] real housewives or we are real moms and real housewives.

Dre Nord [02:50:31] I'm not a housewife, but she's.

Heather Gay [02:50:32] We call her an fo. She's a friend.

Dre Nord [02:50:34] Friend of.

John Dehlin [02:50:35] Yeah. All right. All right, guys. We'll see you very soon.

Heather Gay [02:50:39] We'll see you next time.

John Dehlin [02:50:40] And listeners, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. You're awesome. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com give us your comments. Share this with everyone and come back because we're going to have part two with with Heather and Dre, Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Take care, everybody. Thanks so much. See you guys again soon.

Part Two Begins: Heather's Marriage Story

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1370

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's December 14, 2020, and I am over the moon, excited to have Heather Gay and Dre Nord back. They are both appearing in season one of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City on Bravo tv. Heather is one of the main six cast members, and Dre has been appearing as Heather's friend and business partner. They have a business together. They have these amazing stories. Margi and I have been loving watching Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. We're five episodes into season one. It's a lot of fun. It's crazy, but what you don't get to see are the real people and the real women kind of behind the theatrics. I don't know if. Is it okay to say that, guys?

Heather Gay [00:00:54] Oh, yeah, there's some theatrics. It's entertainment. It's not a documentary.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Yeah. And so, yeah, so we're five. Five, five episodes in, and if you didn't get a chance. We spent three hours with Heather and Dre just last week on the previous episode, and it's such an amazing story. Just to recap briefly, Drake, Dre grew up in Virginia in some of those elite orthodox Mormon wards. Dre was an orthodox Mormon in every way. She. She got married young, probably a little bit too young, and had a kid. And then in that process, Dre realized that the church wasn't what she thought, and she ended up getting divorced from her first husband. She also has this really epic story about women in the church and perfectionism and how her mom almost. Almost took her life and how inspiring that was for Dre to make. Make the most of the life that she has, and how courageous it was for her mom to take the step she did after realizing that the orthodox Mormon path wasn't working for her. So go back and watch the first episode. You'll love Dre's story. And Heather's story is just as compelling and as fascinating. Heather growing up again, an orthodox Mormon in Denver, moving to Salt Lake City, experiencing that culture shock of. Of coming to Utah as an orthodox Mormon. It's kind of like coming to Oz. It's like when Dorothy comes to Oz and meets the wizard and. And realizes that maybe Oz wasn't what. What she thought. I don't know if you like that metaphor, Heather.

Heather Gay [00:02:31] That's a good analogy.

Dre Nord [00:02:31] Yeah, it's perfect.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] But what it was like growing up in. In Olympus High School in Holiday, Utah. For Heather, a great story. She goes to BYU does not have a fantastic BYU experience in terms of dating, but starts to show her entrepreneurial chops, which end up emerging later. And we'll be talking about that today. But Heather also talks about going to BYU and what that was like and then serving a mission in France. One of the highlights for me last episode, Heather, was you bearing your testimony in French, but also sharing many of your orthodox beliefs as an orthodox Mormon. Because my view is you're the most Mormon of the Real Housewives. Agreed. What's that?

Dre Nord [00:03:20] Agreed.

Heather Gay [00:03:20] That's a really low bar.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] No, no, we'll talk about how Mormon you. You really are and were and have been. But. But just hearing how you went through all the different. All the different beliefs that you had, that was a highlight for me. And how emotional you got, talking about how really raw things are and how important the church has been and how central it's been for you. That was really powerful for me. So we're going to be talking about that. We left last episode talking about how Heather, after her mission, moves out to LA area, finds Billy gay and gets married, but we did not at all dig into Heather's story. So we're going to begin today with a focus on Heather's story, but with Billy and this. This marriage and the kids and everything that happens. And then we're going to weave Dre back in, and then we're going to start talking about their friendship and then their business partnership and their amazing business. And then maybe we'll end talking a little bit about. Maybe a little bit about what it's like to be on the show, but not in any way where we're trying to talk about plot or characters, just about. Just about what it's like maybe a little bit to be a real housewife. So, without any further ado, I like to say Gay and Dre, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

Heather Gay [00:04:43] We've been rebranded as Gay and Dre.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] You guys like to refer yourself as Dreather. You guys have a podcast, right?

Dre Nord [00:04:51] Yeah, we do podcast.

Heather Gay [00:04:52] And we introduce ourselves every time as Together.

Dre Nord [00:04:54] We are Druther.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] I love it. Okay, so if it's all right, let's start back with you, Heather. You talked to us about meeting Billy in la, but we don't know anything about that whirlwind of a romance or whatever you want to call it.

Heather Gay [00:05:08] Yeah, it was. You know, it was a whirlwind in a lot of ways. I had graduated from byu. I had returned from my mission. I was starting the next phase of my life with a very, very Clear focus, which was to find a spouse and get married and, you know, begin what had been, like, what I'd been kind of perpetually putting on hold. Not even not putting it on hold, but just, you know, been trying to accomplish. And it hadn't happened yet. So now there was even hyper focus because I was 21 then. I'm 23, right? I'm home. Yeah, yeah, I'm 22 and a half.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Women went on missions.

Heather Gay [00:05:52] Yeah, I went at 21 and was there for 18 months and then came home and I went to Huntington beach to the Huntington beach singles board. Kind of the Mecca of Mormonism. Target rich environment, as Tom Cruise would say in Top Gun and opportunity to, you know, meet my eternal companion and begin a family. You know, kind of. It feels like that's how you really start. That's the only way to progress, really. You know, I mean, I had done the token degree that was really just a Trojan horse for me to find a spouse. And I had. Then I'd done the mission to, you know, have continued purpose in my life as a single Mormon woman. And then now it was like, you know, put the rubber meets the road. Like, now it's. I'm getting up there, my eggs are expiring, I'm slowly dwindling.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] Super old in 2023. You're timing out?

Heather Gay [00:06:52] Yeah, I was timing out and slogging it out, you know, and I. I had a degree in humanities, and I didn't know what I was gonna do if I didn't. I didn't even allow myself to consider that I wouldn't get married.

Dre Nord [00:07:10] Did you ever consider law school, though?

Heather Gay [00:07:13] Yes.

Dre Nord [00:07:13] I know that's what you wanted, but was that an actual.

Heather Gay [00:07:16] Yeah, it was. I mean, yeah, it was a goal. Just in every other way that I'd had a goal so that I could face myself in the mirror and not just say, all I want is to get married and have babies.

Dre Nord [00:07:29] Sure.

Heather Gay [00:07:29] You know what I mean? So I would kind of try to be noble, but, I mean, I'm just being totally honest. Like, I wanted. If anyone had encouraged me or if that had been like something that wasn't. Just didn't feel. It felt indulgent. It felt like indulgent and kind of like patronizing. Oh, you're gonna have a career. You know what I mean? Like, you're not. If you're a devout Mormon woman

Dre Nord [00:07:55] and

Heather Gay [00:07:55] you follow the family proclamation and you follow the guidelines of the church and you follow the plan of happiness, you know, like, you are to stay home, nurture and raise a family. And that's noble. And so everything else just kind of feels like. What's that term? Like talk? Just like filler.

Dre Nord [00:08:20] Kind of like just. That'll be my side. My side hobby.

Heather Gay [00:08:23] Yeah. Just so I can.

Dre Nord [00:08:25] Like gardening.

Heather Gay [00:08:25] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:08:26] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:08:27] I'm serene.

Dre Nord [00:08:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Why law? Well, why would you have. Why would you have considered law?

Heather Gay [00:08:35] The only. The only reason I would have considered law is. Well, there's a couple reasons, actually. That's not fair. You know, I referenced in part one of this podcast that I had a fourth or fifth grade teacher that during a mock trial, said, you should be a lawyer. Great. And that was the only time anyone suggested a career to me or, you know, gave me any sort of encouragement. And so I just stuck to that because it sounded esteemed, you know, and it was. It just sounded like something I could do. And I had had a man tell me that I would be good at that, you know, and he didn't know that that would be the only time I would hear that I could be good at anything, you know, other than. And it does. It wasn't that I couldn't be good at things, it was just. But be good at everything. Be as smart as you can, but don't miss the mark. You know what I mean? And the mark is to humble yourself, to get married, to build a family, and to be a help meet and a companion.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Such a strange word, help meet.

Heather Gay [00:09:33] And it's the perfect word, though, because that's all I was supposed to do, was help my spouse meet his goals and his obligations. And I don't think that. I'm not saying that in a way that I'm a martyr. I think there's immense pressure on men in the church, you know, to be huge providers and to be able to have a dignified career where the family can be wealthy, where he'll be able to be promoted into leadership roles and advance in the church, you know, and have discretionary income and discretionary time. And those things tend to be synonymous with wealth. And I knew I wanted to marry someone wealthy, too. I had grown up wealthy. I was a hard worker. But I knew that it was, you know, I wasn't. I knew I had to marry the package deal. I just am going to say it honestly, because I did. And I went to Huntington Beach. I was working. I was selling shoes at Nordstrom for a while, and then I. For a couple months, and then I got a job in software and I was a tech writer. And I quickly advanced to be like a business analyst in the Company and I was doing well, and I was living in Huntington beach, and it was a crazy scene. It was so many single women and men, but it was probably four single women to every single man. And they were kind of Huntington beach boys. You know, there were a lot of transplants, a lot of guys that had come out there to surf and to be artists. And it was just kind of a. You know, I pretended that it was like this hodgepodge of like all the most creative, advanced, cool Mormons in the world, but that was the way that we all kind of looked at ourselves. But the truth was, you know, we were all rooted in our. In the principles of, like, we were vying for the men's attention and we were hoping to get picked. You know, pick me, pick me. And that's just, you know, that's what I think is. I want to talk so much about is. Because it's not. This isn't what people say, but this is what we do, you know, of course, we just say, oh, we're just young girls furthering our careers, having the time of our lives. But we weren't. We were trying to get asked out. We were trying to get married. And if we were honest at all with each other, we would say that was all we were trying to do. But you don't say that because, first of all, it's degrading, you know, and it's also totally disempowering because you don't have any control over whether someone likes you or someone asks you to marry them or, you know, it just felt. It just is kind of like this passive way to progress in life. And it's. It's hard and it's. It just felt like a lot of pressure. And I had been there about nine months and didn't really date. I dated a lot of guys at Nordstrom. I dated a lot of guys at work. I had a boyfriend that I really. I mean, boyfriend. I was still following the standard of youth packet where I don't call anyone my boyfriend. You know what I mean? But it's just when you're an adult woman, you know, you're just. But I wasn't having sex with anybody. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't having adult relationships. I was having flirtations and just kind of like stretching my legs a little bit with non Mormon guys that were asking me out. But it was all. None of it was real, so I was never invested in it. So I didn't really develop any skills in how to be in an adult intimate relationship. I mean I wasn't having sex but I also wasn't dealing with them on a authentic level at all. You know.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] Emotional intimacy.

Heather Gay [00:13:11] Yeah, no emotional intimacy and no way to really break through that veneer of this is just pretend because you're not a candidate. And yeah. And then I met my ex husband Billy. And I remember the night so clearly I was Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers was playing in LA, Nice and Huntington beach, you know, it's like 45 minutes south of LA, maybe an hour. And I wanted to go and try to get scalp tickets and go to the concert with my roommate Meredith. And that was our plan. And then she had a friend call her that she had worked at at Los Hermanos at byu and he said hey, he just moved in kind of. Or he'd been there for a minute. And he said, do you want to come over? And she said do you want to go over to these guys apartment? And I said well, who are they? And she said well, Aaron's 5:2 or something, you know what I mean? She just like put it. That was the first thing she put out there, you know, like I don't. He wasn't five two, he was like Aaron's like five five, you know.

Dre Nord [00:14:19] Sure.

Heather Gay [00:14:19] And she's like, and I don't think you'll think Billy's cute. And I just said, well, Billy, want to go to the concert? You know, like maybe we could all go to the concert together. And so we went over to their apartment and Billy had just moved in. And I thought Billy was super cute. You know, he was, I thought he was aloof and cool and funny and he was flirtatious and he asked me out like that night and that was kind of rare because we were just in that world of, you know, social activities and you know, corn boils on the beach and it was just kind of like a free for all melee of dating. There wasn't really courting going on. And he asked me to go to a singles ward activity in Irvine, which I thought was cute and kind of earnest of him, you know, and sweet. But I also thought it was a little like nerdy, you know, like. But also kind of revealed to me that he didn't know he hadn't been poisoned by the environment yet. You know, he still thought he had to show up and like, you know, eat.

Dre Nord [00:15:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] Woo.

Heather Gay [00:15:29] Put some effort in.

Dre Nord [00:15:30] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:15:31] And he asked me out and we started dating and he was an entrepreneur and he had recently produced an extreme action sports video. That's kind of what he's doing. Producing movies. And very, very cool. He had this huge red truck that he threw his surfboard in. And the reason he had come to California was he was financially successful. He was an artist. He was doing these movies and he could sell them and work from anywhere, and he wanted to surf the world. So I. That curled my toes, you know. Here's this Mormon adventurer with entrepreneurial desires, and he was into me. I mean, it just was like, this is cool. It was just really cool, you know, and he was a great boyfriend. I mean, he wasn't working, so he didn't surf the world. He just stayed there. And if I were to tell it in his own words, when we moved to California, or we moved from California to Utah, and we had to deliver, like, our opening statement, address in church, you know, where you say, oh, this is our courting story, and this is where we're at. And, you know, the kind of introductory jokes for our sacrament meeting talks. He said, you know, I moved to Huntington beach to surf the world. I met Heather kind of the night I moved in. And I spent the next month, the next nine months and my life savings. He was being funny, but I spent the next nine months and my life savings convincing her to marry me. And that was. That narrative was romantic to me, too, you know.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Tell us a bit about his background.

Heather Gay [00:17:13] So he grew up in Agora Hills, California.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] That's southern.

Heather Gay [00:17:18] It's la. It's a suburb of la.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:17:21] And he. His parents had grown up kind of together and met or had dated at BYU and gotten married. And he was the oldest of three at the time. Well, he was the only active child in his family, really. And his family had been. His mom had always been active. His dad had been less active until he was 15. And then they were sealed in the temple, in the Laie Temple. And his mom was very, very devout, and his. His dad, you know, he was a. He was participatory, you know, and they were sealed and they were active Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] Were they successful financially?

Heather Gay [00:18:03] Yeah, there are lots of money.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Okay. They checked that box.

Heather Gay [00:18:07] Yeah. I remember some guy came in that was kind of like a big shot, and he was fawning all over Billy. And I didn't. I hadn't really put it all together. And then it was clear that he had worked for Billy's dad. And Billy's dad owned a publicly traded company. It was, you know, it was big money. And then Billy kind of told me the story of his family's history with business and Mormonism and Mitt Romney and just all the big names and it was just, you know, it was clear that they were a well established, financially successful family. And that was important to me. You know, it was. It would have. It wouldn't have been a deal breaker, but it was certainly. It certainly, my mom would say, greased the skids. You know, it just made it all seem more palatable and more of a candidate. He was a candidate. They were a prolific family, really well respected, really well liked and loved and esteemed. And that was totally important to me too. But I still felt superior because I was a bic. You know, I was born in the covenant. I was. I was. You know, there's a difference. You know, it's. If you look at your membership record, you're a bic. You're born in the covenant. You are.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] And tell our listeners what that means.

Heather Gay [00:19:23] Born in the covenant means that you are born into the new and everlasting covenant of eternal marriage, and you were a child born of that union.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] Meaning your parents were sealed. Meaning your parents were sealed in a Mormon temple before you were born.

Heather Gay [00:19:37] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] It wasn't like someone, one of your parents joined later, your parents joined, then

Heather Gay [00:19:42] you were all dressed in white and you were sealed later as a family. It was essentially that you had an unfettered line, you know, like your parents had done it. Right. And. And I'm saying this, you know, flippantly because I think with my mentality back then, that mattered to me. Yeah, there was some. Not status is the wrong word. There was some. Superiority probably is the right word. You know, I just. I'm from a true blue pioneer stock family, and we do things right and there's no aberration to the script right. So I. And I liked that he was the only active one. I thought that was really cool. So I was kind of flattered, I guess, that someone that followed the rules still wanted to hitch his wagon to my star.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] Did he tell you what he loved about you? Did he ever say it?

Heather Gay [00:20:42] Back then we had a really strong sexual chemistry because it was all anticipatory, you know, and we weren't immoral. And so it's just like we were two adults, like, making out for hours and hours, you know, Levi Lovin, as they call it. And he, you know, we had. You know, there's so much I could say, but I really want to be respectful of. I mean, screw it. So he. There was. I'm gonna tell this because it's. I think it's interesting to understand, like, my mentality and if it's not interesting. Just like, kick my leg and I'll move on.

Dre Nord [00:21:32] I got you.

Heather Gay [00:21:33] But, yeah, I think there was something about me that felt flattered that this righteous man was choosing me. And I attributed that to him having a lot of depth and a lot of insight and a lot of, like, kind of introspective self awareness. And I kind of believed or told myself, like, he was in on the joke a little bit. Like, we're going to be cool Mormons. Cool socialized, amazing, Righteous Mormons, powerhouse couple, but a little tongue in cheek, too. Like, we don't. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't think he was going to, like, toe the line completely. I thought I was the superior Mormon. Like, I knew the doctrine, I knew the rules. I could. I was going to be the righteous one because that's how I. That's. I had that same experience in the temple we talked about in the first part of the podcast. Like, I thought, well, there's no way that I'm going to. And I'd been to the temple for, you know, years because I went as a missionary and I went regularly. And I just thought, like, I'm gonna run the show, but he's gonna be a great partner. So the whole process, I just had to flip it and make the script work for me. And I didn't feel connected to him. And he was really. We were getting more serious, and we'd been dating about three months, and it was St. Patrick's Day, and I wanted to go to this party in Huntington beach, just, you know, a Mormon party with probably green mil, mint Oreos, and, you know, big St. Patty's Day thing. And he said, let's go camping. And he came and he picked me up and he, you know, he was. I say this because I want my daughters to hear this one day. Like, he. I attributed, like, a lot of the qualities that made our marriage not work to him being romantic, to him taking charge, to him being invested in me. But, like, if I were to look at it with adult perspective and to be fair, adult experience in relationships and intimacy with men and women, I would have seen that, you know, it was fairly controlling. It was fairly asymmetrical. You know, like, I think back on that night because we got engaged that night. So he picked me up to go camping. I had wanted to go to a party. I had kind of gotten, like, dressed cute. And then we were going to go camping at Sycamore Cove up in Malibu. It's beautiful, beautiful spot. And we were walking along the beach and it Was the moon was out, it was dark, it was beautiful Malibu. And he was walking with me and I said, this is such a perfect night. And he like kneeled down right there on the sand and like pulled a ring out and said, the only thing that could make this night more perfect is if you agree to marry me. And in that moment, I was shocked because it was, There had been. It was. I mean, we were, we were Mormon and we'd been dating for three months. So, like, it's not like what, you know, but we hadn't really talked about it practically, and we hadn't really. We hadn't picked out a ring, you know what I mean? Like, there was no. It was just. It was kind of one sided, but I was totally into him and we had this great sexual chemistry. And I didn't even say yes at first. I just said, oh my gosh, are you serious? And like, I was just kind of like gobsmacked. And he said, are you gonna say yes? And I said, yes, yes, of course, yes. You know, and then I like, kissed him and we went back into the tent and we slept and, you know, we made out. And then we woke up the next day and the ring was a little small and so I couldn't wear it. And I also was like, I don't wanna lose it. But also putting it on, there was just something going on with me. Like, I just wasn't like, oh my gosh, you know, I just didn't feel that. And so I immediately spun it and said, you know, everyone's so crazy in the war, they're gonna be over. Like, everyone's gonna freak out and it's gonna take away the sacredness of this engagement, of the commitment we're making of how important this is. So I don't wanna tell anyone. I wanna keep it simple, secret for us so we can have it and keep. Sorry. We can have it and keep it precious for us. And I remember saying those words, but really what I was saying is like, I need to work through. I haven't even considered if this is what I want. Because all that matters is that it's happening. You know what I mean? You're so focused on it. Like, I have to order the steak. And then like, do I want steak? And it's delivered. And you're like, wait, I haven't even checked in with myself. Really? It's happened so fast. I've been working so hard to be a desirable person. Now he's asked me to marry him and I have to kind of look at this with eyes wide open. And that was terrifying to me. And so I went home, and I put the ring in my top drawer, and I didn't wear it, and I didn't tell anyone. And I spun it to him that I was keeping it sacred and private. And I just wanted to give it time and work out the details first so that the wedding didn't become bigger than the commitment we were making. And these were the types of things I would say, and these were lies. I didn't even know they were lies. I was too young and too inexperienced and too thirsty for marriage and too thirsty to be established and too thirsty to be. To begin my life. I was sick of being defensive and making excuses and kind of like, pretending to have big aspirations, you know, because I would have if that had been an option. But it really. I just. I was waiting to get married, and that was my whole purpose in life. So somehow my roommate found out, or she found the ring. She was looking for socks or something, found the ring and was like, are you and Billy engaged? And she made me put the ring on. Another friend came over, and they were just like, you're being crazy. You're gonna lose him. You're gonna blah. You know? And they just kind of came at me. He got kind of irritated that I wasn't wearing the ring. He went on a trip and came back, you know, and, like, was just like, we're either doing this right or we're not doing it at all. And that, of course, you know, curled my toes. Anytime a man is, like, authoritative or demanding or, like, it's. We're doing this right. I'm gonna take us to heaven. You know, I just was like. It was deeply implanted in me that this is masculinity. This is protection. This is someone that will provide. This is someone that will get me to heaven. And there was. Instead of it being like, this is someone like, back off, Betty. I might need all the time in the world. That never even occurred to me. I felt it internally, but I couldn't articulate it. And I immediately suppressed it because that was gonna get me nowhere. I had to make this work because this is probably my only shot, and it might be my last shot. And nobody that checked all the boxes was gonna come along. So he independently decided to serve a mission. His family had only been really active for a few years. He was in Texas at the time, and he decided to serve his mission, to go on a mission. But his parents were, like, in Switzerland the weekend that his farewell was supposed to happen. And so he didn't really have a farewell. He got called to serve in Japan, and he went into the mtc, just kind of like an independent orphan, you know, in the church. Like, he did a lot of it his own. He didn't feel a lot of pressure at all from his family or from his ward. And I thought that was so noble.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] Yeah, that can be a really good sign.

Heather Gay [00:29:16] Yeah, I thought, oh, this guy's a go getter. Yeah. And then he was in the MTC for, I think, maybe one or two weeks. And he hated the confinement. He hated the routine of the mtc. He hated the. What would the word. He just hated the mtc and he wanted to get out. And I think that's maybe when his parents were in Switzerland and he called and said, you know, I'm not. I don't want to. I can't stay another day in here under these rules and this confinement and the routine of it all and the structure of it all, he hated. And so they got him out the next day and got him in the mission field serving in Provo, Utah, and he left. He went in Provo and he was in Provo for, I think, two or three weeks. And he loved it. So happy. He was in a three. A threesome.

Dre Nord [00:30:02] Threesome.

Heather Gay [00:30:03] I'm like, out of a what?

Dre Nord [00:30:04] A three way.

Heather Gay [00:30:05] He was in a threesome. He loved it. And then he got called to Kirtland, Ohio. And so I thought. I mean. And of course, I'm hearing the story, and I'm just thinking, I would have much rather married a guy that served a mission in Japan. That's so cool. And that's a status mission. That's a rich mission. That's a cool mission. You're going to learn Japanese. You're going to be a huge businessman. You know, they've. They've got. They've. They've charted your path and they are just rolling out the carpet and you are messing it up. And P.S. you're going to Provo and now Kirtland, Ohio. Like, you chose poorly. You know, like, this was not. And there was some. And I kind of thought that was. But then I was impressed that he loved Provo, and then I was impressed that he loved Kirtland. And he kind of did audio tapes of. I've had some great. This is what he would have said. Like, when I listened to the tapes, it was like, I've had some great experiences, but I feel like I'm really needed at home in the mission field, in my family, in my University. I need to further my studies, and, like, God has used me here, but I can be much more effective at home. And I'm gonna make this decision of sound mind. And he was saying all this, and I listened to the tapes, and I listened with. If I had listened with my personality, without him being the only candidate for marriage, I would have been like, this kid's entitled. This kid's parents should have doubled down and been like, you're not coming home. There is no coming home. And we'll see you in two years. And you'll learn more in your commitment and in your tenacity and in your ability to double down than you will in us indulging you because you're not enjoying it. But this was the man I was gonna marry, and this is his narrative. So I had to find the jewels in the rubble. And I'm saying this cruelly now because, you know, we have been divorced for five years, and it has ruined my entire life in so many ways that I can look back and say this cruelly. But at the time, you know, I wanted to champion him. I wanted to champion the underdog. I knew I was gonna have to spin it for my parents. I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but I knew there was enough good for them to overlook these big things. If he didn't have an education, didn't have a family with money, didn't have his own career, wasn't independently wealthy. And I had said, he had come home from his mission. He didn't know what he wanted to do with his life. And we were getting married. My parents would have been like, we're sending you away, you know? But there was enough on the other side of the fence that made it palatable. So my dad, I remember we were in Laguna Beach. He had come and met Billy, and they were just like, are you sure he even likes you? And they weren't feeling him. They just weren't into it. And I esteemed, like, his inability to kind of, like, perform for my parents, you know, because they were there. He had roommates that came and were just charming everybody, but he was kind of reserved and a little uppity, and I. That turned me on because he doesn't try. And that's sexy, because it's more authentic,

John Dehlin [00:33:15] or at least it can't be.

Heather Gay [00:33:16] Yeah, I read it as authentic. I read it as his own man, true blue. His own person. An individual with strength that I wouldn't be able to steamroller. That would teach me and guide me and be a support to me. So I just kind of saw as all that this is probably totally too much information. But my dad said, you know, this is a red flag. And I said, you know what, dad? Oh my gosh, I like remember this moment so clearly.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] The shoes.

Heather Gay [00:33:52] I just said, you know what, dad? I. Billy went on his mission. He didn't have to go. He chose to go. He set an example for his family. He didn't even have a farewell because this is back in the era where like you had a farewell and it was like your gd, you know, quinceanera, you know, this is like, this is happening. It was a bar mitzvah for a 19 year old boy and there were flag cookies and you know, people lining up outside the church. I mean, that was when we had the big huge things and he was from this big family and from Texas. So in Texas, you know, like you're gonna, it's a big deal. It's not like just every week there's a farewell, like when I was at Olympus or graduated. So I was like, he did this on his own. No farewell. And he still went on a mission because a lot of guys and you know, we went on missions because we needed a big party. And then there was such a huge send off that you weren't gonna come back sheepish, you know, and return all the checks and return all the money and all the, you know, books of Mormon with your name engraved. So he said, and he often said to me, you know, I think that if I had had a big farewell, I might have felt more embarrassed to come home. And like, so he, he went on his own. He felt like he could be of more service in the, at home. So he came home and he was at church the next Sunday. Not because his parents were there and he needed to go, not for any other reason that he just did. He just followed the rules. And so I was like, okay, this, he's the real deal. He's not just doing this for show. He doesn't have a closet porn addiction. He doesn't, you know, he's not, you know, hiding deep dark secrets. He just shows up and does it. And I felt safe. That made me feel safe. And I said to my dad, I know who he is because he, I literally said these words. He has already walked through trials in his life and he has chose, continually chosen the gospel and that it demonstrates how insulated my worldview was. I thought having a less active family who was sealed in the temple, wealthy and white, was a trial. I thought getting the general authorities to switch your mission with a phone call twice. And coming home and still going to church was like he had overcome a trial. I thought that he had proven his mettle. And so I was marrying someone that had been through the refiner's fire, you know, and was gonna continually choose the gospel when faced with adversity. And that is what I told my dad and I told my mom. And I said, mom, we have total sexual chemistry and we'll never want for anything. I'm gonna be financial. You know, I'm gonna support him. We're financial, he's rich. We're gonna be financially independent. I mean, we never would say he's rich, but, like, he's financially independent and we wealthy and we're going to be able to do great things. And my mom said, well, there's no doubt that grease is the skids. You know, she said that term. And I. They were worried, though. They were worried, and they were right to be worried, but it didn't matter because I was marrying a rich, handsome, cool, tall.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] He is a returned missionary.

Heather Gay [00:37:14] Returned missionary.

Dre Nord [00:37:15] There you go.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] Can I share just three thoughts really quickly? So there's three big things that came up for me listening to you tell the story. One is that when you're married as a Mormon, it's a spiritual and a psychological threesome in the sense that it's you and your spouse and the church or you and your spouse and the Savior. And so it really isn't two people fully connected. It's. And even you, you're judging him by his relationship to the gospel. And so it's. And I think that there's some stability that can come with that. But. But it also can. Can eliminate some of the real connection and intimacy because it's three instead of two. Does that make sense?

Heather Gay [00:38:01] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] But also you're judging him by how much he's conforming to the. The way you've been taught he should as a priesthood holder. So there's something. You don't always marry each other. You kind of like, do they check the boxes? Do they check the Mormon boxes? And then it's a. It's a threesome. It's a psychological and emotional threesome because it's always, are we living the gospel?

Heather Gay [00:38:24] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] That takes me to the second point, which is that it's like a train, because you're. You're 23. You're feeling like you're timing out. You weren't able to find that spouse at byu. You went on the mission because that's what unmarried women do. When they're 21 and unmarried, you know, back, back then and even now they're a little younger, but. But you gotta hurry and find somebody. And so it's like, okay, checks the boxes. We've only known each other three months and you're getting engaged after three months. And then all the momentum kicks in and your parents had some pause because they don't want a big mess on their hands. But socially around you, it's like, you got to do this. You got to do this. And psychologically, so like, once you get on the train, the train just kind of sweeps you away, you know, that's the second thing is like the, the momentum in the inertia is so strong. We don't take the time to like, date for a long time and then move in together and then live together for a while. Are we emotionally incompatible? Are we sexually compatible? Are we best friends? It's like, nope, they check the boxes and we gotta have sex, but we can't have sex till we're married. Let's get engaged. And then. And so it becomes like a train. And I, I'm going to guess that what you're going to, you're going to resonate with this idea that you just got swept up in the train. Yeah. And I think.

Heather Gay [00:39:39] And I was shoveling coal.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:39:41] You wanted to be going.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] Yeah, you wanted to be here.

Heather Gay [00:39:42] I was suppressing anything that was going to derail us.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:39:45] I was keeping my mouth shut. I was spinning the narrative so that it was palatable to friends, family and to my own psyche.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] And that's the third point I want to make. Because, you know, there's an element of Real Housewives that I think of as brand management, where all of you guys kind of have a brand and you all have side businesses. And when you're a help meet to a priesthood holder as a Mormon woman, it almost feels like your job is to manage his brand.

Dre Nord [00:40:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] It feels like you were his co brand manager. And I'm going to. I'm anticipating in the story that a lot of your marriage and even after is going to be how to handle his brand. You know what I mean? Because your brand is his brand.

Heather Gay [00:40:29] Yeah, I'm white labeled.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] What do you mean by that?

Heather Gay [00:40:33] Well, like, he's the substance and I'm just putting whatever label on it that he wants to sell, you know, so it's like, I'm not manufacturing anything with him. I'm just coming in and managing the brand.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] And I don't want to be reductionist because I'M sure there's much more to it than that. But, like, you're already trying to convince your parents that he's a good guy. You're trying to convince yourself that he's a good guy, and then he's the front, and then your job is to, like, have the kids, take care of the home and help manage his brand. Cause you're powerless.

Heather Gay [00:40:58] Totally powerless.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] You're powerless. It's his money. Right? And you're powerless. Okay. Sorry. I just had to. I just.

Heather Gay [00:41:03] No, that's absolutely correct. It was. I was covenanting to this man. He was covenanting to me, but we were both covenanting to God. So we're making these covenants. And it made who I chose in this triangle much less significant because God was part of our marriage. God, all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent, God of heaven and earth was the third party to this marriage.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] I could have failed.

Heather Gay [00:41:33] So if he had a willing heart and living the principles, and I had a willing heart living the principles, everything else was gravy and irrelevant. And I. It was the gospel that forced me to be humble and not marry the ap. You know, it was me saying, listen, check yourself. Be thou humble. That's pride, you know? Yeah. Like, you are getting the real deal. You're not marrying this. You know, the check boxes. Although I was. You're getting the real deal. A guy that's proven himself, that is, loves the gospel regardless, that makes hard choices without fear of repercussions. Like, it's a hard choice to stand up and come home from a mission. There is a stigma attached. And he seemed oblivious to that stigma. And instead of it being obtuseness, I saw it as humility. And he's guileless and he's earnest and he's devout. And it doesn't matter what might not work, because if you're in a partnership with God, he makes up for all of that. And I hear a lot of Mormons, not all Mormons, but I hear a lot of Mormons saying, marriage is for eternity. You find someone, you make the best of it. And I had found someone. So you make the best of it. And how can it fail? God's a part of it.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] And I was explicitly taught. I don't know if you guys were. I was explicitly taught any two people can make a marriage work if they live the gospel.

Heather Gay [00:43:06] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] Any two people. It doesn't matter.

Dre Nord [00:43:10] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:43:11] Heard it my whole life, and not only heard it and internalized that, but, like, I knew my own abilities as a human Being. I had seen my success on my mission. I had seen my success at byu, you know, academically and entrepreneurial wise. I had seen my success at my current job. When I met him, I mean, I was a shooting star. Like, the vice president spent 20 minutes talking to me about something dumb, and he's like, why are you in this department? You're working with me. And I was traveling to New York, like, the next week. Like, I knew that I had skills and so I could marry anybody and make it work. I love sex. I love men. I love the gospel. And I like, if you like me, all that I need is for you to like me and to buy into it. And he seemed to. So I was very confident in my ability to endure to the end. And I thought the one thing that might mess up that pick someone and make it work is sexual incompatibility. Because it's pretty weird for us as Mormons, you know, like, so much shame, really. Very little sexual experience. The sexual experience I had was with, you know, me, with boys like, that were normal, pursuing me and being like, no, you know, like this whole coy game. But I. And I, you know, was so attracted to him. Like, we had, you know, there was a total physical chemistry with us. And so I thought, I'm golden. Yeah, I am golden. This is, you know, this is going to be easy. And so I powered through.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Yeah. Okay, so how did it. I'm dying to know what. What happens next? So.

A Marriage Unravels: Challenges and Turning Points

Heather Gay [00:45:02] Well, we got married and we went on our honeymoon.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] So what temple?

Heather Gay [00:45:07] We got married in the Laie Temple on Oahu.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] Hawaii.

Heather Gay [00:45:10] Yeah. We were the only wedding that week, which added to my superiority that I wasn't, like, I'd gone to my cattle call friends weddings in the Salt Lake temple, where there are seven brides in that room. And we were, like, putting together and pinning the garments so they didn't show. And the whole ritual of just, like, the bevy of cackling hens around the bride and getting her out the side door with all of her family and friends and getting him out. And then we just. And they're gonna. If they have three hours before the reception, they're gonna go have sex. Cause they finally get to have sex, and we. That weird ritual that is. It just seemed to me like. I used to think it was so barbaric that, like, kind of like red tent, you know, Persian cultures would, like, hold the sheet out to prove that she had been a virgin and there was blood on the sheet and she was pure. You know, that kind of like ancient custom. And I would always laugh about it because it was like we were doing that just in a subdued way, you know, and it was just so much hype around the consecration of the marriage that you're finally getting to have sex. And, you know, I just had no concept of, like, sexual intimacy aside from just hours and hours and hours of foreplay.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:46:21] Which I was great at,

John Dehlin [00:46:26] you know? Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:46:27] You know, I mean, I don't know

Heather Gay [00:46:29] how else to say it. Like, it's different than being in a long term, living together sexual relationship with someone, you know, which I never have had. So I don't even really know what that would be like. But I know that it's different than what I. I know that I don't want that for my daughters. I do not want that for my daughters. Because what I think happened is there's a lot of hype, a lot of buildup, a lot of the train moving toward the station. We get married, we have sex. It's great.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] So it wasn't a disaster.

Heather Gay [00:47:03] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Some people have disasters. So you.

Heather Gay [00:47:05] Yeah, and it was not a disaster. I mean, it was like, you know, I. It was baptism by fire, you know, because I suddenly was trying to be adventurous and crazy and I was just like. I didn't understand the mechanics of all of it, so. And I couldn't talk about it or say, well, sex in the shower hurts. You know what I mean? Like, I was. I just couldn't. I just had to be like, oh, I'm up for anything. And I'm. I love sex. And I did. I loved sex and I loved that. But there was. It was almost like there was for sure let down after we got married, it was like build up, build up, build up three days of bliss. And then it's like, now what do we do? Now we've done it, now we're married. Now nobody gives two shits. You know what I mean? And it was just kind of like your life was now on this. I was now on the train and I didn't know the destination. And I had to really look at who we had, you know, what we had both done. And I think we were probably both under that same pressure to make it happen, make it work. And so at our wedding dinner, his uncle got up, he's passed on. And it was so sweet. He said, you know what they say, before you get married, keep your eyes wide open. After you get married, keep your eyes half closed. And he made some sweet comment, but like, you married such a beautiful woman. Billy I would say to you, keep your eyes wide open, because she's a catch and she's beautiful. And we all laughed and we shared scriptures at our wedding dinner. And it was this beautiful glass gazebo overlooking the Pacific Ocean, you know, Turtle Bay. And I had selected a scripture to read. Everyone had, like a quote or a scripture my mom had compiled. And we all. It was this intimate, beautiful dinner. And I read the scripture from Ruth, you know, whither thou goest, I will go. Thy people will be my people, you know, and I will. I basically declared at my wedding reception that I was. I was enveloping myself into him and his clan and his family and his life and his. Him as my. Help me.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] It's a scripture about devotion, about devotion, complete devotion.

Heather Gay [00:49:17] Leaving your culture, leaving your people, and doing everything in the spirit of service. And I was willing to do that, and I wanted to do that. And I had my best friend sing the song in my life by Bette Midler, you know, and it's like, of all the people and places I've been to and all the experiences I've had, none of them. They all fail in comparison to the ability to be in love with. To be loved by you and to be your wife. Cause I felt grief getting married. I did. I felt grief because I knew what I was prepared to do and I was walking into it willingly. I didn't know. I mean, as willingly as you can when people have told you it's all. That's important. It's all that matters. It doesn't matter who it is with, but you just make it work. And you've been successful in every other aspect of Mormonism. I was like, you know, I had traveled, I had had experiences. I had loved other men, you know, that were not Mormon on that level. And I was giving all of that up to be a mother and a wife. And I acknowledged it. She sang that song, you know, and I don't know, you guys know the lyrics of that song that. My parents.

Dre Nord [00:50:35] That's their song, too. The Beatles version, though.

Heather Gay [00:50:37] Oh, it's the beat. Okay.

Dre Nord [00:50:38] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:50:39] Because there's my last Midler from. For the Boys and then Beatles. Did the Beatles write it?

John Dehlin [00:50:43] Yeah, yeah, that's a Beatles.

Dre Nord [00:50:44] Sorry, guys.

Heather Gay [00:50:44] No, it's great Bette Midler, man.

Dre Nord [00:50:46] But it's a incredibly meaningful song.

Heather Gay [00:50:49] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:50:52] And I. I was.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] That's one of my songs with Margi, too.

Dre Nord [00:50:55] Really?

John Dehlin [00:50:56] I'm a huge Beatles fan. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:50:57] Guys. Why didn't she tell me it was Beatles? I said, bette Midler like seven times.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Well, she redid it. She redid it.

Dre Nord [00:51:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] I wasn't sure if there was. I wasn't sure if there was another song I didn't know about.

Heather Gay [00:51:05] No, it's because I think I had listened to it for. And I had a girl singing it. So, I mean, my friend sang it and it was totally meaningful to me. So I knew what I was doing, I was willing to do it and I was excited to do it. And I was gonna be the best God damn wife he had ever seen or known. And people were gonna be blown away because I was going to love this man and I was going to raise an empowered, beautiful, successful family. And my mom had done it with six kids. I knew what it took and I was down.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] Let me ask you. I think I have this sense that when a Mormon couple gets married, either explicitly or not explicitly, there's an understanding of how life's going to go. It's kind of the train concept, but like they're the checkboxes of what's going to happen in our marriage and what our life is going to be like. Do you mind taking those off of like how you imagine you both dreamed your life was going to proceed and what the checkboxes were going to be, you know, in terms of how. What your day to day.

Heather Gay [00:52:06] Yeah, it's so hard because it's, you

Dre Nord [00:52:08] know,

Heather Gay [00:52:10] it's so hard to go back to that space because, you know, now my eyes have been opened, you know,

John Dehlin [00:52:18] but there's like church every week and, you know.

Heather Gay [00:52:21] Yeah, absolutely. Church every week we had traveled. He did not surf or get in the swim on Sundays. No swimming on Sundays. That was a hard and fast rule.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Cause Satan has control of the waters on Sundays.

Heather Gay [00:52:32] Yeah, but he was pretty cool about like a rest on Sunday, you know, if we were traveling, but like didn't like to break the Sabbath. So I just felt like we are going to live in California. We are going to be ridiculously wealthy. We are going to travel the world. We are going to be cool Mormons that attend church every week. I am going to have every calling and perform it well. He is going to be, you know, the guy that shows up and sets up the chairs and collapses the chairs and doesn't need a lot of fanfare and will probably get called to a position and we'll just. I'm like, okay, you know, because he seemed so go with the flow and so easily.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] He'll be bishop and not want to be bishop, not aspire to be bishop.

Heather Gay [00:53:11] He'll Be reluctant bishop. And he'll be reluctant bishop because he's good looking and he's wealthy and he's righteous because that's the dream.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] Yeah. You know, temple attendance. Would you guys be in your dream?

Heather Gay [00:53:22] Would you be in my dream? War temple night. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] So go to temple once again.

Heather Gay [00:53:26] Probably a couple months, you know, every couple months, go with our best friends, a group of six of us. Probably not go weekly unless we're thinking about having a baby or thinking about a career change. Then we would go together. And what about garments? Garments, Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] Tell them what that means.

Heather Gay [00:53:41] Well, the garments, you know, you would wear them anytime that you're not swimming or having sex, which was his M.O. and I was gonna wear garments always. I mean, he. I wouldn't. I was gonna do everything. I was gonna make sure that there was nothing he could say I wasn't doing.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Pray together. Family prayer. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:54:04] Oh, I forgot that we did. We prayed together when we were dating. We prayed together after a fight. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I've never been able to be this intimate with a man and pray. And it's so much better and so much more important. And this is. This is it. Because I didn't really have experience with Mormon guys unless they were bad Mormons. And I was like, trying to help them, you know.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] How many kids would you have wanted at that time?

Dre Nord [00:54:33] You wanted a big family, didn't you?

Heather Gay [00:54:34] Yeah. I mean, I hadn't had a kid yet, so I didn't know. And I was trying to be really thoughtful about it, but truth is, I would have had eight.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] Eight kids.

Heather Gay [00:54:45] I would have had as many kids as we could support and that we could handle. And I guess I was kind of seeing what kind of dad he would be and if our kids were cute, if our kids worked out. Like, I didn't know if I would have kids with special needs kids that need, you know, required if I could get pregn fears, because none of it had been. I hadn't put any of it to the test. Hadn't gotten genetic testing. I didn't know what my fertility rates were, if he could get me pregnant. And so I. I was careful to gate, you know, gauge my expectations. But yeah, I would have had as many. I would have had babies until I couldn't have babies.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] Yeah. And then when you're old, serve missions together, right? Serve Mormon missions.

Heather Gay [00:55:22] Serve Mormon missions. Just be a mission president. Kind people that invite everyone over. And we're missionaries because we are superior and you can come in our home and feel the spirit. And you can have this too. You can have this too.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] Like role models.

Heather Gay [00:55:36] Yeah, role models, absolutely. And I was down for it. And so we got married and kind of the reality of being married to each other settled in. We had never lived together. We had kind of normal things come up. Like he was an entrepreneur, but he now was living in Huntington Beach. He had been doing snowmobiling videos. So he wasn't in an area to really continue to do that because he would have had to go back to Utah. I was working full time and into my business. And I think that immediate dynamic of him being kind of unemployed, you know, it's like not unemployed, but there's so much pressure on him to like get up, be at an office for eight hours, you know. And he was young and from a very successful family and I think that that weighed on him. And I think I for sure was a false friend to him in that aspect. I pretended to be supportive, like, take your time, figure out what you want to do. Let's start a business. Let's do all. But like, end of the day, buddy, you're paying the bills. I'm doing this now and I'm gonna pretend like I'm into doing it. And I'm gonna pretend like I'm a partner, I'm a companion. But like, I was like, bring home the bacon. Bring home the bacon. Because that's the deal.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] That's the deal.

Heather Gay [00:56:49] That's the deal. And I was, I loved, I loved my job, but it didn't matter.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:56:54] And then we waited like. Cause he was still kind of in between careers, figuring things out. And we never hurt for many at all. You know, we were living the high life. We were traveling to Florida and you know, he was flying private. I mean, we had money and we had a great life.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] Cause his parents supported.

Heather Gay [00:57:10] Yeah, I mean his parents, they didn't. It wasn't like he was on the dole, but when there's. We were just had a great lifestyle because, you know, his. The company would come in town and rent 10 rooms and everyone got Disneyland passes for three days, you know what I mean? Just kind of perks, perks, perks and fun family experiences. And we'd all fly to Florida for Thanksgiving. We'd all fly to Hawaii for grandma's 80th birthday. You know, just kind of. You really can supplement the daily doldrums of life with like these big paid for all expense paid experiences. And he bought me a Porsche, which I was a car girl. 9 11, 911. It was. Well, it was a restored 1978 Porsche Carrera 911 with a huge whale tail. Bright red, Cherry red.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Nice. As newlyweds.

Heather Gay [00:57:58] As newlyweds. Oh.

Dre Nord [00:57:59] Like, I.

Heather Gay [00:57:59] He paid off all my student loans. He bought me a Porsche. He was just all these, like, erotic things to me, you know, like being cared for. And I was still. I was the one working. But, like, it just. There was something specific to me about that that I regret. I regret the lip service that I paid him. I regret not feeling truly like I will work, and I love to work, and I'm good at it, and I am not ashamed about it, but there was shame. Oh, you're married. Oh, you're still working full time. Well, what does he do? When are you going to have babies? Every single bishop, you know, we were in The Huntington Beach 7th Ward. When are. Am I going to see you with a baby? And the truth was, I was kind of waiting for Billy to be like, I want a baby with you so bad. Like, I was waiting for that romantic shift. But he was in the throes of figuring out his career. He now had a wife. He now had this responsibility. I was a go getter. I was, you know, had leadership callings in our ward. I was friends with every. You know what I mean? I kind of started to see how I was kind of eclipsing or emasculating him. And I leaned into it because I wanted to emasculate him, because I wanted him to step up. And, I mean, I didn't realize that then. I am saying this now with, like, of course, knowing that our marriage failed and the things that I should have done differently and the things that I did because I was indoctrinated to do them. And I also thought that it was my righteous. What's that called when you have righteous indignation? I didn't consciously emasculate him, but I was. I was playing at my success, playing at my colleagues, playing at my friendships. And he was. And then the recession hit. It was 2001. You know, we had 9 11. We'd been in New York two weeks before 9 11. We were a picture of us on the top of the World Trade Tower, like on our fridge when 911 happened and then the economy kind of crashed.

John Dehlin [01:00:00] You moved to New York?

Heather Gay [01:00:01] No, we were just visiting. We just traveled. You know, we traveled and did whatever we wanted, and we had a great life. And 911 happened. He was doing a couple different little side businesses that were moderately successful. You know, he was a serial entrepreneur. And I Was super into it. I was a help meet. I loved it. I doubled down, I supported him, but I didn't really have much of a voice. And the sad thing was, is I really fell into that role of, like, the wife that just like, whispers like, you should do this or honey, you know, like when they grabbed. And then he's like, I think that sounds wonderful. And he thinks it's his idea. And I kind of eclipsed from the equation that happened all the time. And I was fine with it, I mean, at the time, because as long as things were getting done. But I did kind of think, like, I could run this, you know, like you made. I said, choose blue, and you totally chose red and blue, selling two to one, you know, so I recognized that I didn't have a voice, but he respected me on some level, but not completely. Anyway, it just really became very, very difficult. And then we got to that point where, you know, I'm just gonna say it. This is horrible. Forgive me, daughters and Billy, but, like, I knew I had to get pregnant to make something happen because he was. He was just frittering around. We had money. We. There was no rock bottom. There was no hard point. And a baby was gonna just. Let's just get this going, you know, We've been married two years.

Dre Nord [01:01:33] Kick it to the next level.

Heather Gay [01:01:34] Take it to the next level. I went off the pill. Not a big discussion. I think I probably told him it could take a year. I got pregnant that month. I was really sick, really pregnant. He had been working at a startup and had started a couple businesses. Those startups failed. He went to work one day. The doors were chained, you know, just kind of things like that. So we started consulting for his dad. And then it became clear that if he was going to support a family and I was going to quit working with this impending baby being born, that he was going to have to go back and work for the family company.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] Which was. What type of company?

Heather Gay [01:02:07] It was a vitamin and mineral company. It's called Nutraceuticals, headquartered in Park City. And it was a huge company. And he had worked there before, and he had not really enjoyed it because he wanted to be his own man and a free spirit and all of these things that I thought were so attractive and so cool, But I also was well aware that he had a golden parachute. And it's romantic and cool to be married to an entrepreneur when you know that there's no bottom, you know, you know that there's. You can always go back to the family business and Be provided for. So I started to have to own a lot of my lip service. You know, I wasn't a free spirit. I wanted to a 9 to 5 husband with a paycheck and perks and jazz tickets and, you know, and business vacations and status and an office and a suit. And I wanted to have all of the spoils of life, and I wanted to have babies and dress them and have big parties and, you know, cute crafts for my young women. Like, I wanted it all. And I had a very specific of what it looked like. I never asked for it and I never said it out loud. And I deeply regret that.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] Why?

Heather Gay [01:03:16] Because it was dishonest and it was manipulative, and it made me become a person that I didn't recognize. And it also eroded what could have been true intimacy between us.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] What was manipulative and dishonest?

Heather Gay [01:03:32] To lie and say, I'll live in a trailer and support you while you write your novel.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] I see.

Heather Gay [01:03:38] Which I said emphatically, you have a dream, and I will commit to that dream. I don't need anything. I just need you. And I need you to commit to it. And I will love you through it. And I would say those things because I could say those things because I knew we were never going to live in a van down by the river. His family wouldn't have allowed it. My family wouldn't have allowed it. So I could be romantic and I could say these things, but it was not how. It was how I wanted to feel. It was how I wanted to live, but it's not how I truly was programmed to live. Does that make sense?

Dre Nord [01:04:15] Totally. Yeah. Completely makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] Yep.

Heather Gay [01:04:19] So I regret that.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] And you're not the only one that says things like that. I mean, I think we all do. There's this. There's this idealized version of love that's unconditional love. And we're devoted to each other, no matter what. Through better, for worse, in sickness and in hell, till death do us part.

Heather Gay [01:04:34] Two oaks and Yoked together. And I'm his partner and he respects me, and I respect him. Like, I just wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] You were on the train. Well, let's face it. You grew up on the train and you wanted to get back on the train, and he needed to do his role because everybody's got their role on the train.

Heather Gay [01:04:51] And I knew where this train was going. It was going to, you know, it was going to a life of happiness, and it was going to eternal glory and the new and everlasting covenant of our own planets. And our own babies. And I just wasn't ever honest with myself and in turn was not ever honest with him. And that crack and that fissure eroded my own identity and in turn emasculated and eroded his. And our marriage became very strained and we never really talked about it.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] And I'll just throw in that get. You get disconnected from yourself because you're not. Your. Your job isn't to plug into what you care about and what really makes you happy and what really opposite.

Heather Gay [01:05:34] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] No, your job is to. Is to get comfortable being on the train. And your job isn't to really get to know each other and really have this deep connection. It's to do whatever that third party in your marriage wants you to be doing. So you don't ever really learn to know yourself. You don't ever really get to see your other partner. Your partner. And you don't ever get to build a life that's really authentic to you.

Heather Gay [01:05:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:59] So you really are set up for failure if the goal is fulfillment and emotional intimacy. Instead, you're set up to either survive because you are just both able to stay on the train and go where the train's taking you, or you become so miserable where the whole dream falls apart. But it was never about either of you as individuals and it was never, never about your relationship. It was about what. What the train wants and where the train's taking you. And it's. It's a setup. If you really want what I think we all really desire, which is to be. To know ourselves and to be seen and to have true, deep emotional intimacy. That. That's not how. That's not where the train's going. That's not what the train's designed for. It's actually designed to suppress those things.

Heather Gay [01:06:46] Yeah. If you want to stay on the train, you have to suppress.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] You have to. To. So it's a setup.

Heather Gay [01:06:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] And I'm not saying it's nefarious. There are people with good marriages in the church. I don't think the church leaders mean this. But. But marriages in Mormonism are not constructed for self knowledge and awareness. You got to get divorced to have that. Right. And. And they're not for true emotional connection and intimacy. It's for getting on the train and. And going where the train takes you. That. That's it. So it's a setup. You're not alone. It's every marriage there is. It's every Mormon marriage.

Heather Gay [01:07:20] It didn't. Yeah. And I just. I wasn't ever going to dig deep. I was never gonna be totally authentic or honest about it because that would serve no one. And, yes, I'd been really internalized that my authentic, intimate self was, you know, contrary to God.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:07:38] You know, flawed.

Heather Gay [01:07:40] Flawed. Because natural men's desire, you know, the natural man is an enemy to God and will forever be. So I didn't wanna, like, be like, what are you? You know, And I had one moment where I called my mom and Billy was kind of going through some depression and just kind of trying to figure things out. And it was unattractive to me, and it was also burdensome. And we were quarreling, and it was like I just kind of fell into that role of just like, figure it out, you know, like, first world problems, which million dollar company do you want to start today? You know, and that's. And I was. I was patronizing and I was dismissive of a lot of his needs, and I didn't even know they were now. But I can look back and own that and think how hard that must have been for him if we could have even talked about it. And I called my mom and I just said, this sucks, you know. And she said, well, welcome to the club. Just laughed. Just totally laughed. Was unfazed.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [01:08:39] Didn't say, fly home.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] It's like, they're having fun.

Heather Gay [01:08:41] Let me come out there. And she just said, oh, join the club. And I said. And I said, well, I don't want to do it. She's like, well, tough. Tough luck, kid. You know, you're in it now. And I said, well, no, I can get divorced. And I'd never said that out loud. And we were like. We were maybe three, four months in. It was still in that. Figuring things out. We had to move in together. Like, all of a sudden, I'm living with a man. It's just a lot of hard things. And. And she said. My mom scoffed. And she said, yeah, no, you can't. No, you can't. So settle in. And I think back, and I used to think, mom, why didn't she. If my daughter called me and said that, I would be like, you absolutely can get divorced. I'll send you a ticket, fly home and spend the weekend here. You know, like, whatever it is right now, I'm not going to downplay it, because the fact that you're feeling anything is a chance for you to dig in, see what's going on and fix it. But instead, what I had figured out was just, okay, right now you're in a dry. Pull the blinds down on the train. And just continue forward, you know, don't. So you're going through and you don't like the direction you're going right now. Just don't look, sleep for a while, you know, just kind of repress it and not like get in and figure out how it's working. You know, just persevere. And that was a pivotal sliding door moment that I had not had a child yet. We were barely three months in. We could have walked away and I could have denied ever having even been married, except I couldn't because I was sealed in heaven. It was. I had, you know, entered into the new and everlasting covenant with him. He was my eternal spouse. So I understood the magnitude of it, but I just, I remember repressing it. And then I got pregnant. So we moved back to Utah and things were really good for a while because everything was falling right into place. He was working at 9 to 5. I was having a baby, I had. I was decorating, I was cooking, I was getting integrated in my ward, I was serving in young women's and I was, I was settling into my role. And I wasn't even asking myself why or how or if I was enjoying it because it was irrelevant.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] Yeah, it was irrelevant.

Heather Gay [01:10:59] It was, you're on the train, you made it, you got to the station, you got on, you got a ticket, you're on it. And it was like the last thing I was gonna do is like go talk to the conductor and like open up the thing and see how it was operating. You know what I mean? That was. I had no need. Nope, no need.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] Just hold on. So what happened? I'm dying to know how you guys settled in and what that looked like.

Motherhood, Divorce, and Starting Over

Heather Gay [01:11:20] So we had a couple great years. I got pregnant.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] You went to work at the vitamin company?

Heather Gay [01:11:26] He went to work at the vitamin company and he kind of accepted. He wasn't thrilled about it because he want be his own man. He didn't want to work for his dad, work for the man. He wanted to be a free spirited entrepreneur. But it was hard because the money was great and it was pretty easy and I don't want to diminish it, but, you know. And I had my. Our first daughter, Ashley, she was born in California, but then we moved when she was six months old to Utah and we moved in, we built a home. We lived in Holiday.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] Holiday.

Heather Gay [01:11:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] That's nice.

Heather Gay [01:11:56] Yeah, it was newlyweds. I'm still in the same house.

John Dehlin [01:11:59] What? Yeah. That's swanky for newlyweds.

Heather Gay [01:12:02] Yeah, we were for sure, like had more frills than any of our friends. You know, we were privileged and we knew we were privileged and we were grateful and we were like, this is awesome. Because in California we had been small fish in a big pond. You know, I had a Porsche and we lived in like a townhome, but like everybody had a Porsche. Everybody had beach homes. People were upgrading their real estate. I mean, it was just moving at such a fast pace and so was it. It felt good to come home and kind of be a big fish in a little pond where all of our friends were like, living in their parents basements and we're building a house and you know, I'm buying a BMW and just kind of, just this kind of the frills of it, you know, that the kind of the things that make it look like picturesque ideal.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:12:47] And I had, I got planned my second pregnancy perfectly so that when my oldest daughter was turning two, she opened up a little present that said, I'm gonna be a big sister. And that was a big thrill for the whole family. And I was pregnant with our second daughter and everything was going great. And then it just started, kind of the shine started to wear off, you know, and you get right back down to where you're at and you're lacking real connection. I'm forcing him into this role of provider and I am pretending to be fulfilled in my role as just a mother.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Talk about that. Because I. One thing I've noticed, and I don't mean this to be like false compliments, I guess I'm searching for the word. But like, I really do think motherhood is the hardest job in the world because, you know, as hard as it might be to go work for some company or start some company or survive in the business world, at least you've got, got lots of different relationships and you're flying places and you're doing cool things and you feel that sense of accomplishment. You're always intellectually challenged, but when you're an intelligent, capable person and you're just home with these babies and these young toddlers running around, it's brutal. It's, it's can be grueling and some people love it. But like, Margi was never fully happier at peace. She had like, great grades, loved studying English literature, ran cross country for byu, was traveling over the country, competing in, you know, Stanford and, you know, ncaa. And then all of a sudden she's a mommy, you know what I mean? And like wiping noses and talk. There's a lot of depression with, with Mormon moms. Talk about how that. What that was like for you.

Heather Gay [01:14:37] Yeah, I.

John Dehlin [01:14:40] Maybe it's different. So I don't mean to put that.

Heather Gay [01:14:42] No, it's just I'm looking at Dre because it's just. It's hard to know what was real and what was projected, because my answer would be I can very much. I call it like my beauty pageant answer. Like, I don't really know how I really felt about it because it was kind of irrelevant.

John Dehlin [01:15:06] You were unplugged from yourself.

Heather Gay [01:15:07] I was, yeah.

Dre Nord [01:15:08] I was.

Heather Gay [01:15:08] Loved being a mom, but I also hated it. And I think the hardest part about being a mom was. The shame of not loving it when it was hard. You know what I mean? Like, just like the grueliness of it. But I will say it's much harder. It's a million times more difficult to be a mom and work almost to the point that the fulfillment outside of the home or the money is negated by how much strain it puts on you as a mother to manage the children, to wipe the noses and butts, to be there for them and to be present and not feel absolutely fractured and absolutely stretched to the max. And, like, it is much easier to be a stay at home mom, as grueling and as menial as the tasks are, than it is to do both. And I would say. And then just to work and not have children, I think is, if you're grown up in the context that we did, is equally hard because of the shame and the angst of what you're not having.

John Dehlin [01:16:24] Oh, my gosh. That's three super hard options.

Heather Gay [01:16:26] Yeah. Well, how do you feel about that?

Dre Nord [01:16:28] No, I agree. I totally agree. I think.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Did your happiness go up, up, Dre, when you got divorced and you had to go get a job and you had a kid or not? Because at least you're pursuing something intellectually challenging? I don't know.

Dre Nord [01:16:43] You know, again, I'm gonna kind of say the same thing. I don't remember. I was in survival mode because I was a single mom. I had no other choice. I. I've done it again now because I'm obviously a working mom currently, and my self worth is higher now for sure. But back when I had a small baby and was waiting tables and going to school, I don't think I even considered. Yeah, I was just like, well, I don't get child support, so I gotta pay my bills. How am I gonna, you know, provide for me and my daughter? Interesting. So that's a really complicated question, John. Yeah, because. And it's one that we've talked about ad nauseam. Like, we've discussed the subject so much, and I don't know that we have a good answer for you, because the shame of being a working mom is so real. However, it does feel really good to have your own money and to have adult interactions and to be recognized for your skills. That feels really, really good. And so does loving your kids. That also feels really good.

John Dehlin [01:17:56] So.

Dre Nord [01:17:57] But the shame of not being there 100% of the time is also incredibly real.

Heather Gay [01:18:03] Yeah. And like, in the hierarchy of needs, it's like a first world problem. Like, my happiness. Well, I'm not. That's not on the table. It's not on the menu. And you don't want it to be because then you have to look at some deep, hard truths and you don't want to complicate your life.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] If you know you're unhappy, that's miserable. So it's better just not even just to numb yourself.

Heather Gay [01:18:26] Yeah. Or just to not consider it, you know, to not get upset, just to, you know, be grateful and to be fair, it's not just internal. It comes from our family and our community. Like, I was not going to go cry on a shoulder about how I had to do all the childcare when, you know, I have a home and a car and vacations in Hawaii and ski weekends in Deer Valley. Like, I'm sorry, what? And a cleaning lady and Pottery Barn sheets. Like, I'm gonna say, well, yeah, he's kind of disengaged with the kids. Like, oh, I'm sorry. There are women. You know what I mean? Like, it just felt like in that hierarchy of needs, like ours were at the bottom. And there was nobility in that.

Dre Nord [01:19:10] Yeah. She who suffers most.

Heather Gay [01:19:12] She who suffers most and complains the least, the more noble of a woman and wife she is. And I want it to be a wonderful wife. I didn't want to just be a great wife because I loved him. I wanted him. I wanted to be a wonderful woman because that was the metric. A wonderful wife, because that's the metric by which my womanhood was rated and my value in the community and in the ward and in my family and to my Lord and Savior, that's what mattered. And so he was irrelevant. And that's so sad. And I would never want my daughters to forego emotional intimacy and self awareness in order to glorify the church and their status in their faith. That is. And that has taken years. And, like, how many hours of discussion?

Dre Nord [01:20:11] Many, many. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:20:13] My husband, I never told him how I really felt. Because it didn't matter because I was in a marriage with God and him and I was having babies and I was doing.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] You're on the train.

Heather Gay [01:20:26] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:20:27] Well and truly, Heather, I mean, we've talked about. When we first met. You felt sad for me, like, because we. Because I did have. I had that life where I had, you know, found my truth and followed that. And you felt bad for me. Right?

Heather Gay [01:20:44] I felt total pity for you. And I felt pity for all women who were doing what I was doing without the umbrella of a husband and membership in the church because it seemed like if you took away that nobility and that purpose, it seemed futile and menial and sad.

John Dehlin [01:21:12] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:21:13] And I. I mean, that's kind of. We should probably talk about that, how we met. Because when we met, I was a married. You know, what's those McLaren stroller cushy mom.

John Dehlin [01:21:25] So how many years into your marriage did you. Did you guys meet?

Heather Gay [01:21:28] We met in 2007 or 2008.

Dre Nord [01:21:31] They were in kindergarten, so, yeah, 2008.

Heather Gay [01:21:34] We met in 2008. I had lived in Utah for five years and I had. Did I. I had three children.

Dre Nord [01:21:42] You pushed Annabelle in the stroller to school. She was little, like a baby.

Heather Gay [01:21:48] Yeah. She was born 2007. George was born 2006.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] So by that time, you're Dre, you're living in Holiday.

Dre Nord [01:21:53] Uh huh.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:21:54] I lived with my mom.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] Okay.

Dre Nord [01:21:55] Yeah. When I got divorced, my daughter and I moved in with my mom in Holiday and our kids went to the same elementary school.

John Dehlin [01:22:03] Your daughter was the same age as her oldest?

Dre Nord [01:22:06] Yeah. So both of our oldest daughters are the same age. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] And you lived just a few minutes apart.

Heather Gay [01:22:11] Yeah, they went to the same. They were in the same class at Oakwood elementary. And I distinctly remember. And I lived close enough to the school that I would walk to the school with my younger babies and to take Ashley to kindergarten. And I would see dreams dropping Elsha off and I would feel so sad for you.

John Dehlin [01:22:32] Why?

Heather Gay [01:22:34] Because I felt sad for Elsha and I felt sad for her mom because she had to. I didn't see it as this dedicated mom that's bringing her kindergartner to class and kissing her goodbye and scuttling off. I saw her as a single mom that I didn't know the story, but I just knew that. I mean, I don't know how I had to. I just. I figured it out because the rest of us went there and walked around and laughed and lunched and volunteered. Volunteered.

Dre Nord [01:23:01] She wasn't part of the mom group.

Heather Gay [01:23:02] She wasn't part of the mom group, but I would see her show up and drop her daughter off and then, like, walk off. And I remember just, like, seeing her walk off and thinking, feeling a sadness. Cause I knew we'd never be friends because I'm a lady of leisure, and she's got bills to pay. And those two worlds just don't, you

Dre Nord [01:23:20] know, cross at all.

Heather Gay [01:23:21] I was in the classroom, like, every day, and so I would always, like, take pictures of her daughter at the pumpkin patch. And I felt like she was Wednesday's child because her mom wasn't able to be there. And I didn't know the circumstances of the story, but I probably attributed it to sin and addiction and horrible, you know, things that had happened to her, because I didn't know any single moms. And I. I guess I must have known on some level that to do everything we were doing, which was hard and menial and whatever as a single mom would be, like, the worst thing I could imagine. So we noticed each other, and I always took a special interest in Elsha, but I did not have a relationship with Andrea.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] So, Dre, what's it like living in Salt Lake City in a more. Let's just say, a more affluent area? One of the more affluent areas in the state. Right. And you've left the church, so you're divorced, you've left the church, and then you're a single mom, and you're a working single mom. But then you. You have visibility into these women like Heather and others that are in the, you know, suburbs, and they're. They've got the righteous priesthood holders, and they're making lots of money, and they're on the train, and they're living it. You chose to step off the train. Yeah, but you know that they're probably. I mean, I. I want to know how I. You know, there's a part of me that's like, well, how did it feel to have Heather just describe that? But that's nothing. How does it feel to live that, knowing that you're surrounded by people that are probably thinking these thoughts or pointing the finger? It's kind of like Lehi's dream, where, like, there's. There's people pointing.

Heather Gay [01:25:04] Spacious building.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] You know, there's people holding the iron rod, and then there's pointing at the people in the. In the great and spacious building. What's it like to live like that, surrounded by those types of eyeballs?

Dre Nord [01:25:14] You know, it's interesting because it was hard, but I also. I mean, have to Bring it full circle and realize and hope that. And sometimes I believe this, sometimes I don't. But I'm going to say in this moment, I think that the universe needed to deliver me a humbling experience because I was the worst human when I was Mormon. I was completely superior. I thought I was so smart. I thought I always was. Right. I was very prideful and. And I needed a little dose of being humbled. And it was very humbling to have to like. Because you think about in Holiday Utah, there's probably. There probably weren't very many single moms. The only reason I was at that school, or Elsha was at that school, is because my parents were rich and my mom was generous enough to let me live in her. In her house. Yeah, in her mansion. Exactly. And I had certainly, like, I was so lucky and incredibly, incredibly lucky to be able to live there. And so I. I definitely don't consider myself a victim of any kind of, you know, bad circumstances, but it. I had to let go of what people thought about me because I knew. And I was embarrassed and ashamed. But I also knew that I could not go back and live the lie that. So I would rather be the mom that people feel sorry for. Dropping my kid off in my green apron to go wait tables, which I'm sure was a great look, but I. It was hard.

Heather Gay [01:26:54] Did you sense that from us?

Dre Nord [01:26:56] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:26:57] Did you sense that we were just like, oh, we'll look out for her?

Dre Nord [01:26:59] Totally. And you know what? I was simultaneously grateful and jealous and ashamed, all of those things. Because looking back, of course, I would have loved to be at the pumpkin patch. Like, that was my kindergartener, and, like, I was single for nine years, and I missed all of it. Like, I missed it. And so that was hard. But I was also very grateful to the moms that would include me on the text chain or the email and send the pictures. Because then at least I got that. I didn't ever question whether or not I should have left the church and gotten divorced. I knew I had very spiritual experiences myself of knowing that that was the path that I was meant to go on. But I think I probably did have a lot of anger about, well, gosh, I never would have been in this freaking position in the first place of being this, like, married so young, having a baby at 23, a very young and immature 23, and then having to learn all of these life skills, like how to have a job and how to pay bills and how to get my education and also be a mom at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:28:17] Because Mormonism doesn't prepare you for that. They just prepare for the train. That's it.

Dre Nord [01:28:21] No. Yeah, exactly. And it's much harder to get off

Heather Gay [01:28:24] the train once you're on it. So you just.

Dre Nord [01:28:26] When you.

Heather Gay [01:28:26] When it does derail, it's like.

John Dehlin [01:28:28] Yeah. You're in the middle of nowhere.

Dre Nord [01:28:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] With no space.

Heather Gay [01:28:31] How do you get this. How do you get this back on the track?

Dre Nord [01:28:33] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:35] When. Yeah. When you're in. When you're. When your train crashes.

Dre Nord [01:28:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:39] You're in the middle of nowhere with no skills.

Dre Nord [01:28:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] Right.

Heather Gay [01:28:42] And still incredibly privileged. You know, think of. Totally think of. Like, she was. Had the means to get a degree and to be supported, but if you were. If you were, you know, had. No. If you had to cover a mortgage with a baby and a waitressing and tuition, you would have. You would not have gone to school.

Dre Nord [01:29:01] No, I wouldn't have lived in the neighborhood I lived in. I would not have had anything that I had.

John Dehlin [01:29:07] And with all the advantages, it was still super hard. Right.

Dre Nord [01:29:10] Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And what I would have done is probably what so many single moms do, which is you get an apartment, you make it work. You don't get your education. I'm so lucky that I got mine.

Heather Gay [01:29:21] Yeah. I feel like you have that path. Like, I can work at, you know, Local Lizard.

Dre Nord [01:29:29] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:29:30] And scrape away, or I can just find the. Another train and get back on it.

John Dehlin [01:29:38] Find another priesthood holder and try again.

Dre Nord [01:29:41] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:29:42] But that. I mean.

Dre Nord [01:29:43] And you know what? That was my end goal. Like, funny enough, it never occurred to me that I could just do it myself. Like, I did think, okay, well, I'm gonna get my education, because I knew I was gonna have to support her and myself for a time. But I also completely planned on getting

John Dehlin [01:30:05] remarried to an ex Mormon. Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:30:08] I hoped. Yeah. Because I. I knew that, like, I could never go through the temple again. And I. Yeah. I knew that it was. It was going to be different, or at least I thought it would be. So.

Heather Gay [01:30:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:23] So, Heather, just a second ago, you were feeling pretty emotional. Can you tell us what you were feeling? I'm just curious. What?

Heather Gay [01:30:28] Yeah, I was feeling just shame for feeling so superior and feeling just so pious in that I would look out for Elsha and love Elsha, because I don't know what's happened. You know, her mom has to. You know, she's clearly her mom. She has a single mom. And I was feeling sadness because if I had known. I'm just keeping it so real. And I know I'm a Horrible human being. But this is. I hope that in me sharing this, like, maybe it can. I know it won't, because you know what I mean? But maybe it can trigger something in someone else that is an active Mormon and maybe behaving this way and not sure why they are. But, like, I think that if I had known that you had taken your name off the rolls and that you had openly walked away from the church and defied the church and listened to Mormon stories and had no intention of. If I had known that you were an enemy, I don't think I would have looked out for Elsha.

Dre Nord [01:31:37] You might have, though, Heather. I don't know.

Heather Gay [01:31:38] I just felt like I thought, what if I. You know, and like, how superior of me to look out for freaking Elsha. You know what I mean?

Dre Nord [01:31:46] She's your daughter.

Heather Gay [01:31:48] She's, you know, Dre is like everything that I want to be in every way and always has been. And so much of my strength and growth and even ability to sit here and talk is because of her. So you just have to understand the irony in me being like, oh, look out for El Show. I'll take my giant mark, you know, 5D2 $10,000 camera and send you beautifully edited pictures of your daughter. The pumpkin patch. We missed you, you know.

Dre Nord [01:32:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] Because you can't be there because you're working.

Dre Nord [01:32:20] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:32:20] And I didn't know the circumstances. And if I know the circumstances would have changed. And the fact is it would have changed it. And just the way it's changing my relationship with my friends and with my kids, moms. Because when I was the Relief Society president getting divorced, I had certain women that absolutely rallied and would pick my kids up and show up and do things without any piety. But I also had. But now I have people distancing themselves because now it's the choice of. Now this is the consequence of my choices. Now, this isn't circumstance or hard knocks or a missionary opportunity, which is. I probably saw everything as such as a missionary opportunity. I will show them how loving, how kind, how cool I am, and I felt all these things, you know, But I. It was from a plate. An elite place, you know, I have truth, knowledge, light, and the perfect life. Therefore, my cup runneth over and I shall pour some into yours. But if I had known that you were self aware and conscious enough to have, you know, taken your name off the rolls of the church, I would have been like, have fun working as a waitress. Because there never was happiness.

Dre Nord [01:33:34] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:33:35] And until you get your life back on Track, you're gonna struggle, and I'll be here for you when you do, but you're gonna have to learn the hard way. I mean, I. I hope I wouldn't have done that.

Dre Nord [01:33:45] Sure.

Heather Gay [01:33:45] But I anticipate I would have.

Dre Nord [01:33:48] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:33:49] And that's horrifying to me, and it makes me feel deep shame.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] Well, it's beautiful.

Heather Gay [01:33:58] What's new about that?

John Dehlin [01:34:03] From my standpoint, it's a beautiful story. Like, Dre, I love that you. Developed enough self awareness to realize that you were miserable and that you couldn't fake it any longer and that you needed to go through rough stuff to develop kind of some of the character and the perspective and. And a bigger worldview, because that's what happens.

Dre Nord [01:34:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:29] And. And that's really powerful, but it's also. It's really humbling, Heather, to have you just admit, yeah, I was privileged. And, yeah, I was elitist. And, yeah, I was a. You know, because this. This town is full of those people. Yeah, it's full of those people. People. You know, I. I was divorced. My parents got divorced when they're. I was in middle school, and I always, like. Was it byu? And there were the rich kids that had the life, and I was like, ah, well, will anyone even want me? Because I'm a divorced kid. Kid from a divorced family. And. And then I'm always, like, trying to prove myself because, like, I have to make up for the. The past. It's neat. It's neat to watch this and realize we're all just human. And the other thing is, we talk about privilege, and yes, I'm privileged, you're privileged, but pain is pain. It doesn't matter.

Heather Gay [01:35:14] Yeah. It's true.

John Dehlin [01:35:15] Rich people kill themselves all the time. In fact, probably more often. You know, and so it's this weird, twisted thing where. And there's a couple people that commented on YouTube like, oh, all the privilege, and, oh, we're supposed to weep for you. It's not about that per se, but, like, what we know about wealth is that wealth can cause all sorts of problems and lead to all sorts of dissatisfaction and the simplicity. I mean, you want to have enough money up to, like, 75 or 80k, but after that, happiness plateaus or goes down, you know, it really does.

Dre Nord [01:35:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] And so. And pain is pain. And so I don't care where you come from. I just want to get to the human story. Vulnerability and rawness, realness and then growth. And that's what you guys. It's so inspirational for me to see you guys modeling this and talking about it and we'll cover other types of stories. But this is the story we're covering today, and I love it. So, Heather, how did your marriage unravel? Like what. Talk to us about how, how it led to that.

Heather Gay [01:36:17] You know, it's.

John Dehlin [01:36:18] It's like you were married how many years?

Heather Gay [01:36:19] I was technically married 14 years, but we separated after 11.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Okay.

Heather Gay [01:36:24] And then it took three years for us to get married, to get divorced.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] How did it get to. How did it get to separation? So he's working at Vitamin whatever.

Heather Gay [01:36:33] Yeah, he's working at Nutraceutical. And I'm a stay at home mom. And I, we. I basically what happened was kind of a perfect storm of.

Dre Nord [01:36:46] It's.

Heather Gay [01:36:47] It's like as simple of an explanation but as complicated because it's all in the intricacies of it. Right. Basically, I. My third daughter was unplanned and born like 18 months after my second daughter, which is in Norman Rockwell land. In Mormon land. That's not that big of a deal. But it was a big deal to us because Billy was not fully happy in his career and we were starting businesses together. We had a. We started a company called Old Nauvoo. And I was a novice photographer, as a lot of stay at home moms are, but I was still an entrepreneur. Industry and enterprise was kind of flows through me, so I couldn't do anything half assed. I wanted to be creatively challenged in ways that would fortify my family. And so I think that's why photography is so attractive to a lot of moms. Because. Because it's art and technology and it's a progressive skill, but it also serves your family and saves you money on photo shoots. And it's fulfilling because you're with these kids all day and if you can take pictures of them and beautify and edit. So I was really into photography and

John Dehlin [01:38:16] blogs and social media are on the rise by this point.

Heather Gay [01:38:18] Right. They were starting. I remember Deuce with Heather Armstrong. Has she ever been on Here Here?

John Dehlin [01:38:23] I've tried.

Heather Gay [01:38:26] She was pretty remarkable to me, but in such a different way than she is remarkable to me now. I would read her blog, like with one eye on the door, like my dad was gonna walk in. But I could not believe someone was blowing the doors off of Mormonism. And I thought she was for sure going to hell. And I thought she was funny and provocative and interesting, but I didn't even allow myself to feel those things because I just had disdain. And I kind of probably told myself I was reading it so that I could contain it and you know, refute it. But the truth is I was reading it because she was a kindred spirit and something resonated with everything with me, everything she was saying. But that would require too much self awareness and humility for me to really meet her there. So I had to do it from a place of, you know, just looking down. But I was a photographer and I wanted a way. We wanted a way to like bring every. There was that decree that everyone should have a picture of the temple in their home. I don't remember which prophet said it, but we started taking pictures of the temples and I would edit them in Photoshop and make them like sepia toned and rustic and with this, you know, the papyrus script, you know, like Logan, Utah and beautiful artistic pictures of the temple. And we started a company and Billy took it and ran with it. And so I then became his assistant. I would fly around and take pictures if. If I could. And he would fly. And we had kind of a bustling enterprise. I mean, it wasn't what paid our bills, but it was just a way for.

John Dehlin [01:40:04] It was a side hustle.

Heather Gay [01:40:05] Yeah, it was a side hustle. He was still with the old Nauvoo. He was still at the company. Yeah, for sure. I mean, this was. Was a side hustle that we did and it was really fun. And I started to kind of feel myself a little bit with photography. I started doing fashion photography and photography for fashion bloggers. And he started to lose interest in old Nauvoo and the temple pictures. And he kind of got into some disputes with our distributor and our frame guy and things that just made me sick to my stomach because I felt like if. Oh my gosh, you know, if you let me just freaking negotiate this. And they ended up not liking, not wanting to work with us. And so they hired a graphic designer just to do exactly what we were doing. And they started their own company and we weren't suffering or hurting. So. Okay. So that business, you know, frittered out and I felt sad about that. Cause that was kind of contrary to my values, core values. And then we started buying rental homes. And I would like kind of manage the rental homes, but I had now having my third baby that kind of tipped the scales from. So the perfect storm would be. I started to feel myself in terms of entrepreneurialism and talent and like home enterprise photography, managing these rental homes really, you know, running a well oiled machine of like beautiful Christmas cards, matching outfits, beautiful Easters Christmases. Like I was running I was the CEO of my house, you know, and I was. I was feeling myself and I was.

John Dehlin [01:41:35] What do you mean, feeling yourself? What do you mean? Feeling your power, ability or just the

Heather Gay [01:41:40] accolades of it, really.

John Dehlin [01:41:41] Okay.

Dre Nord [01:41:42] Gaining some confidence.

Heather Gay [01:41:43] Gaining some confidence. And also in my groove, you know, like, I found a way to feel fulfilled, to feel challenged, to feel successful and to be involved in the community. And I started to, I started to numb out to his irritation with it. Like, I'd be like, can you come home at 5:30? Because I have this photo shoot at 6. And he'd say, how much are you gonna make? And I'd say, $400, you know, but it's like two hours. And he'd be like, it's not worth it. And it was never. It was not worth it because we had plenty of money. $400 was a drop in the bucket. And it was requiring us to him to inconvenience. It was an inconvenience. It was requiring him to have a time he had to be home. And it was. I was gonna be stressed out because I was gonna have to have the kids bathe and dinner ready. And you know, and so it was creating a level of anxiety and antagonism that he did not want and that he was not comfortable with. And so I was always trying to just like find these, you know, trying to balance it so that he was not bothered. And then I got pregnant with our third baby and he, he was just like, this is overwhelming. So it was either gonna be like I had to kind of quit everything. And I don't know how to explain it, but just kind of like pull the curtain up like, and not have any intimacy or any involvement in my life with him and just run the show and just like make sure his life was as seamless as possible or, you know, kind of give up everything I wasn't doing. But his family stepped in and said, oh, this is. Billy's kind of overwhelmed with the thought of a third baby. So we'd have three babies under four, I guess.

Dre Nord [01:43:24] Yeah, four. Two and a four, Two and a newborn.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] That is intense. That is intense.

Heather Gay [01:43:28] So they hired us a nanny. They gave us money to hire a full time nanny. And that was so generous and really, really awesome. But it also really created a huge divide in terms of our intimacy in our marriage and our ability to work as a team. Because now you have a freaking nanny. I'm not coming home at 5:30 and don't ask me to because you have a nanny and she works 40 hours a week. You have money and, like, you have help and you have support. And instead of us, like, really digging in together, his family kind of stepped in to make sure that he was not disturbed by the burden of three small babies and a wife that was, you know, not keeping a house of order, I guess, because I was trying to do photography and do Instagram, and I started a social media company on the side, and I just kind of started doing things and I started not caring. And I had a great group of friends, and they were smart, successful, beautiful, funny women. And I went to bunco with them, and I did book club, and I was. I felt. I was feeling myself. I had status in the community, you know, and I had. I was getting attention. And then I got called to be Relief Society president in our ward. And this was.

John Dehlin [01:44:55] Weren't you pretty young for that?

Heather Gay [01:44:56] Yeah, very young.

John Dehlin [01:44:57] With three kids. Three super young kids.

Heather Gay [01:45:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:02] In a pretty prominent ward.

Heather Gay [01:45:03] Very prominent ward. Stake presidents, area authorities, mission presidents. I was young. The median age of our ward was like 60. And I was renegade and I was funny and wild, and I had a wonderful bishop that was just old enough to be old school, you know what I mean? Like, the old school Mormon guys that are just like, have a beer once in a while, won't hurry, you know, I mean, like that type of where he was. He never even considered me. Then he heard I was returned missionary, and he was just like, yeah, you should be our next Relief Society president, and called me to it, and I was ready for it. Just felt normal to me. I didn't realize that that would be kind of, like, upsetting to Billy. And it was. There was definite conflict and he was not feeling it, and I was feeling myself. And I started getting sick of his Eeyore type attitude, like, we're on the freaking train. Stop putting your foot down on the. You know what I mean? Like, he was just trying to always stop it and stagger and embarrass me. And we went on a couple trips and he would undermine me and embarrass me, and I would react and overcompensate and I would get so frustrated and I would cry to my sister in law, and I said, because I saw all of my siblings with these other marriages that were much less compatible than me, and Billy's had much more normal burdens, financial, emotional, child burdens. And I. But they at least toed the line and kind of subscribed to the same story, which is, we love each other. This is eternity. We're married, you know, and like, oh, Is that a sock in your pocket? You know, just like something like funny, like a smidge of pee on your shirt. But that's life. And he refused to.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] So if we were to. And it's. I love the candor and the honesty and. Because that's how you were seeing it and that's how you maybe still see it in some ways. If you had to kind of put your empathy cap on and just say, this is a guy who also has feelings, who also wants to do the right thing, who also wants to be a stand up guy.

Heather Gay [01:47:13] Which is all true.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] What, what do you think he was, what do you think was going on for him? And you don't have to go, let's just spend a minute. Like from his perspective.

Heather Gay [01:47:22] What from his perspective, how is life

John Dehlin [01:47:25] not turning out the way he wanted?

Heather Gay [01:47:26] So if I were to put on my empathy cap and look back, I was refusing to submit. I had too much of my own agenda on the line. I was prideful, I was happy, I was feeling myself. I wanted him to get on board with me and like support me and herald me and think I was amazing and. And he didn't. And it was like I stopped making everything about him and I started making it everything about me and the kids. And he sensed it and he felt it and I gas lit him and pretended like it wasn't happening and that he just was needed to find his own thing, you know. But the truth is I just stopped our whole marriage and our whole courting. I submitted to become whatever he needed me to be. And then at some point in the marriage, I stopped doing that. And there was one distinct moment when our oldest daughter was getting baptized and she was 8 years old. And he had made a decision that he wanted the baptism to be at a different time. And this was just an innocuous thing that just became like the straw that broke the camel's back. And I had always accommodated or you know, pretended to accommodate it, but like talked him through it so that I got what I wanted. You know, just kind of that old dance of manipulation and just incompatibility. And I said, I'm not gonna change the time of the baptism. I've arranged the font. Cause I didn't do it with the stake, but I did a special private, fancy baptism. Cause I was superior, you know, I didn't want to cattle call baptism with all the kids in the stake. So I had to arrange the font, the speakers, the piano, the chairs. You know, you had printed the invites. I printed the invites. They had beautiful photography they were engraved. You know, I had sent them out. And he said he wanted to accommodate a family member that was flying in, coincidentally, on the same day, and he wanted her to be at the baptism. It was about family. She needed to be there. And I was like, she's not even an active member of the church. It means nothing to her. She baptized her children Catholic when they were born. Like. Like, no, I'm not changing it. And I cried to my parents. And, like, my dad said. And he said, fine. He texted me and said, fine, I'm. I'll move. You can have the baptism when you want to have it. I'll move out next week.

John Dehlin [01:49:48] Whoa.

Heather Gay [01:49:49] Yeah, just drop the gauntlet. And I was reeling, told my parents, and they said, okay, let's just. Let's print up some flyers. We'll send flyers to everyone who invited the baptism saying that we're going to do an hour later because. And then that'll fix everything. And I said, no. And I don't remember why I said, no. Fear. And, like, I had was presenting this perfect veneer to the world, and I wasn't gonna send out flyers. You know, this is a fancy baptism. And it was really. And I was the Relief Society president. It was just a lot, so I didn't do it. And it seemed like a small thing, but it was just really a battle of will, and I dug in. And then I had too much pride, and I was too pissed to work it out. So I just kept saying, hey, you said you're moving out, move out, move out. Because you've been saying you're gonna do stuff our whole marriage, and you don't do it. So, like, let's see, if you really move out. And I really didn't think he would move out. I thought maybe he'd move out, work through it, come back, and I would just be the dutiful, you know, hero welcoming the prodigal son. And that didn't happen. And it took us three years to get divorced, and we've been divorced five

John Dehlin [01:51:02] years really quickly, just because I want to just try and understand a tiny bit more or at least explore it, and then we can move on. But in a way, you weren't totally on the stereotypical train. And what I mean by that is you were doing too much, like, having entrepreneurial ambitions as. No, your job is to raise the kids and to be a good support to your husband. Yeah, you serve in your calling, but then he's serving in his calling, like doing business and entrepreneurial stuff. I mean, there's A lot of warnings in Mormonism that women shouldn't work outside the home, that a woman's job is to raise the kids and support the husband. And so from a. From a being on the train, orthodox Mormon perspective, and I think it's awful, right?

Heather Gay [01:51:51] No. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] But you were. You were a little bit too ambitious in a. Sure. In an orthodox Mormon context.

Heather Gay [01:51:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:58] How much of that is. How much is that?

Heather Gay [01:52:00] It's absolutely true. And that's why, you know, my ambition and my. I don't even call it ambition. I just called it my self centeredness and my self absorption and my own awareness of my talents and needs superseded my commitment to my marriage ultimately, because I should have just put my head down and done whatever it took to keep him happy. I think that I realized that I couldn't keep him happy and that it had nothing to do with me. Although you never really believe that. You know, it's always something to do that's always a little bit about you. Yeah, for sure. But then definitely, I. I felt like, I just have to be honest. Like when he said, I'll leave, I was like, well, he'll never leave. First denial. And then I thought, so what if he does? I didn't feel heartbreak when he left. I felt devastation over the loss of my entire purpose for life and my family and my eternal salvation and that it would never be what I set out for it to be, which was not a blended family, which was not a second chance around happy ending. I wanted it undeterred. I wanted my children, B, I Cs. I wanted the, you know, I wanted the whole thing. It was not. There was nothing about a consolation prize that was gonna work for me.

John Dehlin [01:53:33] And yet you kind of requested.

Heather Gay [01:53:36] I mean, yeah, I did, and I think. But I. I feel like I requested it because I was once again emasculating him, challenging him and trying to force him into a dominant leadership, patriarchal role that I was also unwilling. I mean, you know what I mean? I was setting him up, setting the guy up. And I'm a tough opponent. And he knew that on some level. And I also have to be totally candid that I love men. And I was and am still working through a lot of misogyny and a lot of. I just esteem men to be more valiant and smarter and more capable and more righteous. And I thought that, you know, he was probably right to reject a lot of these things about me, you know what I mean? So I. I just. I was like, grateful to him on some level for leaving because it was I never would have.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] But. But as I hear the story, you kind of wanted it to end because you were kind of bigger than the role you were in. I get a sense that you big. And when I say big, I mean soul, spirit. Right. It seems like you were, you are. And I think both of you are bigger sold than the Mormon train, you know, had room for. And so there's this weird thing where you were trying to force him to be the patriarch that you did not want to submit to.

Heather Gay [01:55:23] Yeah. That's what's totally messed up. That's why I take.

John Dehlin [01:55:27] He couldn't win. He couldn't win.

Heather Gay [01:55:28] He couldn't win. And he was wise enough and smart enough and that's how I tell the story, you know, he's wiser and smart enough and more authentic enough to say, this is not going to work and I don't want to spend another day married to you and I am going to leave the marriage.

John Dehlin [01:55:42] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:55:43] And I said, oh, really?

Dre Nord [01:55:44] Prove it.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're not fit. You're not the mold. Neither of you were the mold for what you were put into. Mormon marriage doesn't prepare you to be emotionally connected. It prepares you to get on the train and to stay disconnected because you're too busy to be connected. And once you're connected, it's all about what your wants and needs are. And there's no room for your wants and needs. So you're individually not well suited, and then you're not. Not enjoying your time together. And then you want to, you want to kind of branch out and do things outside. And then he can't fit the mold. It's just, you're all victims, really. He's not a bad guy. He's not a. I mean, we all have quirks and personality traits and problems, but in the end, we were all. We're all kind of victims to a bunch of stuff that we really didn't totally choose that we inherited that started six generations ago when Joseph Smith said that he talked to God and that he created this book from an angel with golden plates. And we're all just kind of like downwinders, you know, and dealing with the consequences. But, but the thing I just want to say is that you talked about, you talked about these two choices where you almost talked about, like, it's misery either way. Either you stay in the marriage and self medicate and have this double life and you're miserable, or you get divorced and you blow up this dream that you were living for and that was everything you Wanted and that either way, it's terrible, but I don't buy that.

Heather Gay [01:57:27] Yeah, I agree. And I.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] Each other a huge favor, wait another 10 or 20 years.

Heather Gay [01:57:33] I hear everything you're saying, but what I really wanted was just a semi good, cohesive marriage. It didn't have to be rainbows and unicorns. It just had to be not self medication and deceit and affairs and denial, and it didn't have to be self discovery and building a business and finding myself. I really just wanted just a medium life with a man that just professed to love me. I mean, I knew he didn't, but, like, just profess it.

John Dehlin [01:58:05] You didn't think he loved you? You.

Heather Gay [01:58:07] No, we didn't love each other ever. I mean, I don't really know.

John Dehlin [01:58:14] Yeah, no, I. We don't know. In Mormonism, we don't know what emotional intimacy is. We don't even. We're illiterate about it.

Dre Nord [01:58:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:23] So how do we ever develop it? You just get on the train and you go forward. So, of course, what. What you marry with is with hormones and with hope and optimism and passion and a plan, but that's not love. And a plan, but that's not love. That's not love.

Heather Gay [01:58:37] It's not love, but it's a plan.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] Yeah, it's a plan. A plan's better than no plan. But it's not love.

Heather Gay [01:58:42] Yeah, but I made the decision to have an eternal marriage when I was 8 years old and got baptized. When I taught it on my mission, like, how I felt about it was irrelevant. How he treated me was irrelevant. How we managed it was irrelevant. And I would trade everything to go back to the Garden of Eden where my eyes have not been opened and I do not see. I'm not happier now than I imagine I would have been had it worked out for me. And that is the truth. I'm making the best of it. And I'm deeply grateful to Dre, because otherwise, I was just on the treadmill waiting to. I was never gonna remarry. I was never going to be honest about how I felt about the church with my children. And I was just gonna toe the line and try to keep my kids from getting totally screwed up by the fact that I was not able to sell it, you know, or keep it all together.

John Dehlin [01:59:46] And Dre, were you watching their marriage fall apart? Were you friends by that point?

Dre Nord [01:59:50] No. I had no idea. In fact, I remember finding out that they had been divorced for, like, a while.

Heather Gay [01:59:58] They probably separated.

Dre Nord [01:59:59] Yeah. I mean, I don't think you Were actually divorced. But I think it was some. It was. I think we were at Corner Canyon High School at the debate tournament, and you said something about, oh, so and so and so recommended that therapist. You know, like, since we got divorced, like, we should probably put the kids in therapy or something like that. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I didn't even. Cause she was, like, the last person. She was, like, the queen of the moms.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] She was really. And Relief Society president.

Dre Nord [02:00:24] Yeah. And like. And I.

Heather Gay [02:00:27] Queen of the moms. I really was.

Dre Nord [02:00:30] You were. I remember, like, seeing you and just.

John Dehlin [02:00:32] Queen of the holiday moms. Is that it?

Dre Nord [02:00:33] She's the queen of moms.

Heather Gay [02:00:35] Somebody described me, and they're like. Somebody asked me about you, and I said, well, she's the most popular of everyone in pta.

Dre Nord [02:00:41] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:00:42] And I was like, oh, wow. And she was impressive.

Dre Nord [02:00:44] She totally was. But yeah, no, I was. Heather is really, really, really good. As authentic and open as she is, she's really good at, like, selling what she wants you to see.

Heather Gay [02:00:58] On brand. Like, I'm on brand for Mormonism.

Dre Nord [02:01:01] Totally. And so I'm sure I was surprised you even revealed to me that you had considered therapy for your kids, because we weren't even friends.

Heather Gay [02:01:12] It's probably kind of because I knew that Elsha had told you. Like, Ashley probably said Elsha told her mom or something.

Dre Nord [02:01:17] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:01:18] And so I knew you.

Dre Nord [02:01:18] Or maybe you assumed that she had. No, I don't think. I don't think I even knew that you guys had been divorced or separated.

Heather Gay [02:01:24] Because they kind of bonded over, though. Ashley and Elsha.

Dre Nord [02:01:27] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:28] Your kids.

Dre Nord [02:01:28] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:01:29] Because they were afraid to talk about it to anyone. And then Georgia said it to some friend, and that friend's mom called me and said, are you and Billy separated? Just kind of asked me, and I said, said, why? No.

John Dehlin [02:01:40] Why?

Heather Gay [02:01:41] I think I lied and said no. I mean, people didn't know he had moved out for, like, a year.

John Dehlin [02:01:44] Okay, how does that work in sort of royal Mormonism or, like, suburban, more upper class Mormonism? How do you hide separation and divorce?

Heather Gay [02:01:55] Husbands are.

Dre Nord [02:01:56] Turns out, pretty easy.

Heather Gay [02:01:57] Turns out pretty easy. Husbands are very easily dismissed from our world.

John Dehlin [02:02:05] Well.

Dre Nord [02:02:05] And if you're already. If you already have your own life at that point, you kind of did, Heather. You were doing social media, you were doing photography, you had your group of friends, you had the bunko night, you had Relief Society. Where's Billy for all of that? Anyway? I don't think that a ton changed.

Heather Gay [02:02:21] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:02:22] And I think that's why none of us noticed.

John Dehlin [02:02:24] And everyone's just like, he's working. He's. Husbands, work.

Heather Gay [02:02:27] Yeah. I mean, they esteem men with money. You esteem them to be busy all the time. If they're dismissive, it's because they are probably thinking about some million dollar deal. Not just that they're jerks, you know?

Dre Nord [02:02:37] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:02:38] We just kind of, you know, cushion, cushion. The bad behavior or the absence of them. And because what do you have to complain about? You've got a roof over your head, food to eat, you know, Pottery Barn, clothing, you know, and, like, little wooden toys. You know what I mean? You've got it all. Like, nobody's worried about it. And you're not in a place to complain because. Because I didn't want to expose my kids. Because I knew that it would change the way they were received and the way I was received. It's not that noble. And the way that. It was, like, my lifeline. This marriage was everything. Not because it was the love of my life, not because it was so fulfilling. It's because this is what we do. What is Mormonism based on? The new and everlasting covenant of marriage. Yeah, marriage. We weren't in love with other people. We just couldn't make it work. And that ruined my life.

John Dehlin [02:03:40] Well, changed your life.

Heather Gay [02:03:42] Ruined it.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] It ruined it. It crashed the train.

Heather Gay [02:03:46] All of this is a consolation prize that I would trade. I would trade it right now. So I still say ruined. This. I mean, you say resilience, but I'm just, you know, I'm just surviving.

Dre Nord [02:04:11] Yeah. And I see a phoenix rising, but she doesn't. And that's okay. Maybe you'll get there, but maybe you won't, and you'll make the best of it. Heather, a lot of times, I think, especially in the church, we have so much pressure on ourselves over things that we have zero control over being a mother. We can't choose if we get pregnant or not. It's Mother Nature, you know, a marriage working out. It's two people. We are not in charge of that. Like, those are the two biggest pressures on women. And we have zero control. And that's. That's. It's just really hard.

Heather Gay [02:04:46] And who our children become, it's somehow some. This reflection on our parenting and our, you know, diligence to the gospel. And, like, I have. I mean, these humans that were born in our family, like, whomever they become is their path, you know?

Dre Nord [02:05:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] For sure.

Heather Gay [02:05:02] It's nothing to do with me. And that is so much pressure, you know, And I used to put that on my kids, you can't wear that. Especially now that I'm a single mom and I'm like, where would you be whomever you want to be. Love whomever you want to love. Dress how. You know what I mean? Just tap into whoever you are and figure it out, because I will love you. I will get down on my knees

Dre Nord [02:05:31] and love you, you know?

Heather Gay [02:05:35] And that's the Phoenix rising really is the chance for my kids to have dreams and to achieve those dreams. It's like that thing we just read yesterday where it's like I put all of my. Now I just have no dreams for myself. I just put them all on, hopefully changing the path for my daughters because

Dre Nord [02:05:52] I love them and they. I don't.

Heather Gay [02:05:56] I want them to be free of the shame and guilt and sadness I feel just because of. I couldn't do the Mormon thing the way I wanted to. It's as simple as that, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] Yeah. I mean, you've been divorced how long?

Dre Nord [02:06:24] Five years.

John Dehlin [02:06:25] Five years.

Heather Gay [02:06:26] But I've been separated nine. I've been doing it alone for nine years.

John Dehlin [02:06:32] Yeah. It's hard stuff. And you guys are being so raw and authentic, and it is inspiring, and it will be to many, many people, because you guys aren't alone. Mormonism has the same divorce rate as everyone else. You know, and this is happening everywhere. And the more. The more that the church people realize that the church isn't what we all thought. And they all got on this train and the church, the place they're going isn't making them happy. And it's actually not even. It's Oz. It's the. It's the man behind the curtain, you know?

Dre Nord [02:07:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:05] Like, marriages are ending left and right. And so we're all kind of pioneers in a sense. We're kind of you guys like that.

Heather Gay [02:07:13] We're like our pioneer ancestors blazing a new trail. At least my own trail.

John Dehlin [02:07:18] We are. We are. Like, having a structure is valuable. There's value. There's value in having a structure. Structure. And we had the structure. It just turns out the structure wasn't built on what we thought. It wasn't the truth that we thought. And so now we're having to strike out and find the new way. And it's painful.

Heather Gay [02:07:39] Yeah. But even when you say that, it is painful and it is real. But even as you say that, I, in my mind and in my heart, hear it and I know it and I process it. But I also think. But if it works out, it is perfect. The plan of happiness when it. When it's not fractured. It's. It seems it's still in my mind as ideal.

John Dehlin [02:08:04] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:08:06] And so I'm just sad that I didn't. That I didn't choose the right. I don't know what I'm sad about. You know, I'm just sad that we didn't choose the right people and that we thought we could make it work with just tenacity and grit it. And we couldn't. And I understand that this is like a new dawn and a new opportunity, whatever, but I just believe that I somehow still hold this belief that the people that are married in the temple, both believing the gospel, are happier and better families than mine and other broken families and other godless families. And that's. That's how deep the chip is implanted. And that is something we talk about all the time, because it's even outside of the context of religion. The concept of the nuclear family, the Norman Rockwell family, is how we define success in so many ways. And that's not unique to Mormonism or unique to us. It's just. It's the plight of women, you know?

Dre Nord [02:09:11] Yeah, that's true.

Friendship, Business, and Beauty Lab Origins

John Dehlin [02:09:15] So how did you guys become closer friends?

Heather Gay [02:09:19] And then desperation, John.

John Dehlin [02:09:21] There's.

Heather Gay [02:09:21] There's darkness. Finds leads into darkness. Yeah, there's two.

John Dehlin [02:09:26] There's two. There's definitely at least two things I want to cover. One is your business, and the other is your faith journey, Heather, as it's evolved. So just make sure, as you. As we continue, that you weave both of those in.

Heather Gay [02:09:38] Well, my faith journey is the story of the business, and our friendship is the story of the business. And really, the phoenix rising from the ashes of both of our lives is the story of the business.

John Dehlin [02:09:49] All right, let's do it. Should we do it?

Dre Nord [02:09:51] Yeah, let's do it.

Heather Gay [02:09:53] I think Dre should tell it, and I will. All right, I'd like to turn the time over now to Sister Nord. So Heather, she will speak until 10 to the hour, at which point, Heather

Dre Nord [02:10:06] and I, we were kind of just casual acquaintance friends. And, like, we had shared that moment at the debate thing, and I liked Heather, and she was the queen of the moms. I knew she was way above, like, my level, but our girls got really close in junior high, and so we did see a little bit more of each other, just driving the girls back and forth. And I remember. I remember dropping Elsha off to play with Ashley, and you were there with. With one of, like, her gay best friends. And I remember being like, oh, this girl has a gay best friend. I did not expect this from Madame Relief Society President, you know? And so I kind of, like, started getting an inkling that, like, Heather was. I knew she was cool, but I was like, okay, like, this girl's got a little bit of edge. That's, you know, I like it. And we ran into each other one night at the. At the choir concert.

Heather Gay [02:11:02] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:11:02] And I had since been remarried, and so I was, like, kind of integrating more probably into the normal mom because I was staying at home, I wasn't working anymore, was having babies, kind of falling back in line. And Heather said to me, hey, I've been doing social media for this plastic surgeon. He's shutting down his practice. He's filing bankruptcy. I. I think I'm gonna buy it.

John Dehlin [02:11:31] And, like, how long ago was this?

Heather Gay [02:11:33] This was 2016.

Dre Nord [02:11:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:35] Four years ago.

Dre Nord [02:11:36] Yeah. And she was like, I. And I had worked front desk at a med spa for years, and so she. And I wasn't anymore. But she said, I know you've been in the industry. Would you want to come in sometime and just, like, chat with me and kind of like, I don't know, show me the ropes. Like, I just, you know, don't totally know what I'm doing in this space. And that was kind of the beginning of it.

Heather Gay [02:11:53] Like, we started, but I assumed she'd say no because she had a one year old and a three year old, so I was kind of throwing you a bone.

Dre Nord [02:12:00] You were. And the truth is, personally, I was in a really, really tough place in my life because I was here. I had kind of done round two of the dream, but I did it the right way with, you know, this guy that was super successful, and he was okay with me being out of the church and wasn't going to push us, you know, as long as. As he could maybe take the kids to church every once in a while, like.

John Dehlin [02:12:24] So you remarried a Mormon guy?

Dre Nord [02:12:26] Yeah, but he was inactive.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] Okay.

Dre Nord [02:12:28] Less active. Less active. Yeah. And. And so I. And. But, like, my family loved him, and we had this beautiful life. We had two gorgeous little boys, and he was an amazing stepdad to Elsha. And I was still unhappy and deeply, deeply unhappy. And I had been.

John Dehlin [02:12:46] You know why?

Dre Nord [02:12:47] Oh, yeah, yeah, I know why. Is because I was, like, in the box, you know, I was.

John Dehlin [02:12:52] You went back in the box?

Dre Nord [02:12:53] Yeah, in the woman box. I didn't have to go to church, but I still fell completely back in line with all of the patriarchal beliefs. Completely. And I didn't even know it. And so all of my value was completely based on being the perfect wife, being the perfect mom, and I wasn't fulfilled doing that. And none of my emotional needs were being met whatsoever. And I had talked with my therapist and he had said, well, have you considered maybe going back to work? That might help? And I was just like, are you freaking kidding me? No way. Here. I, like, found this guy that wants me to be a stay at home mom. Like, that's all I wanted to do. I was tired. I waited tables for eight years, and now here I am, and I'm really. I'm gonna go back to work. Okay. But I had, like, kicked it around. He thought it was a good idea to maybe get me out of the house. Maybe I was having, like, some postpartum, and maybe that's, you know, just. I needed just a little bit of a change of scenery, some connection with adults, that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [02:14:01] And you had two sons with him?

Heather Gay [02:14:03] Mm, yeah.

Dre Nord [02:14:04] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [02:14:05] And they were little.

Dre Nord [02:14:05] Yeah, toddlers. Yeah. Roman was like 18 months, I think, when. By the time, like, I fully was with beauty lab. But anyway, so it was kind of this gift from the heavens that Heather just threw this out to me. I was like, yes, yes, please. I. Absolutely. Let's trade for Botox. I will come in. I'll do whatever you want. I will work front desk. I will. Whatever.

John Dehlin [02:14:26] Let me just jump in for a second. So sorry. So, like, you think about how. How hard it was to get divorced and how waiting tables for eight years, there's a. You know, you think I would think that maybe. And maybe you did. You have this mindset of, like, well, this second marriage is going to work. I'm going to marry my soulmate and we're going to have a great marriage, and there's no way that we're ever going to get divorced. And all the things that were wrong about the first marriage, I'm not going to repeat. So all the patriarchy stuff and whatever, I'm not going to fall back into that.

Dre Nord [02:14:58] What?

John Dehlin [02:14:59] My guess is you went into it thinking that you were gonna avoid all the mistakes that had led to the problems in the first marriage. Is that right?

Dre Nord [02:15:08] Oh, absolutely. I've never been so sure of anything in my life as you were sure as I knew that I was supposed to marry him. And it's funny that I even say that, like, that's supposed to. It's so hard to kick it this idea that there's this meant to be person for us that God is willing

Heather Gay [02:15:27] for us to find Mary and. And form a life with regardless of the circumstances.

Dre Nord [02:15:34] And he is a wonderful, wonderful human being who I love and appreciate. We're not married anymore, but I could not have picked a better dad for my kids, a better stepdad for my daughter, a more dedicated provider, a really. A standup guy. And. And so all of those things, I mean, it was box, box, box, box. Checked them all way more than with my first husband. I was just in love with that guy. And this one, I was, like, 100% sure. And so it was really tough and confusing for me when I.

John Dehlin [02:16:13] A few years in.

Dre Nord [02:16:15] A few years in, was like, oh, boy, I am really unhappy. This is not good. And it must be some. There's something clearly. And I do believe this. I think there's something deeply flawed about me as a human because I just can't seem to make it work, even with really wonderful, solid, dedicated people.

John Dehlin [02:16:36] You really think it's you?

Dre Nord [02:16:37] I do. I do. I think that you agree, Heather. Yeah. Yeah, it's me.

Heather Gay [02:16:43] Because she is bigger than the box of wife.

Dre Nord [02:16:49] Well, thank you for saying that.

Heather Gay [02:16:50] She's much bigger than the box of wife. And, like, that's a burden.

Dre Nord [02:16:55] Yeah. But I also have, like, we're all so flawed, and we all have so many. So, like, I have so much personal work to do still. I guess, what? I'm 40, and I have no business getting married. Not at 21, but I have and not at 30. I have so much work to do because there is a lot of deprogramming. I'm still doing 17 years out of the church, and I still. The chip is embedded deep. It really is. And even after. Because even hearing Heather saying what she said a few minutes ago, I was thinking, gosh, like, if she could let go of the religion, I think it would shift things, because I would feel the same way, I think. And the reason that I don't is because I have let go of a lot of things with the religion. But there are still, like, my. My value as a mom and the way that I show up as a woman is completely, like, I. I base the standard on the standard of the church.

John Dehlin [02:17:53] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:17:53] You know, and. And truly. So when my therapist, like, had thrown out, well, maybe you should go back to work. I was just like, eye roll. Okay, well, maybe I guess let's just

Heather Gay [02:18:03] add that to this because you knew it wouldn't change your. Your duties at home.

Dre Nord [02:18:08] You know what I mean?

Heather Gay [02:18:08] Like, it wasn't like, oh, I'm working, so I'm not gonna be able to do all. You're gonna have to do all of that and then work.

Dre Nord [02:18:12] Yeah. And it wasn't even that. Like, I didn't mind the duties at home. I just was so unfulfilled. I was like, I felt like the cheetah in the cage in Glennon's book of, like, okay, there's I wanna go run. I wanna be free. I want to explore, I wanna sleep under the stars. I want to hunt something and kill it and eat it. Like, that's what I wanted to do.

Heather Gay [02:18:36] Cheetah. You're a cheetah.

Dre Nord [02:18:37] But like, yeah, exactly. I know I rock the cheetah often just because it's a great reminder and, you know, but that feeling of, I should be grateful, this is the life I wanted, I manifested this exact life. And so I'm gonna be good. I'm gonna be okay. And then when Heather offered me to come just work with her, just very casually and, like, non committally, I was like, this is perfect because, like, I can sell it to my husband as, like, it's just like a fun side project. And he and I had talked about my struggling with the depression and everything. And I had said, well, maybe if I got some help with the kids and I could just have like a couple hours to myself every week, like, maybe that would help me feel better and whatever. Which is so entitled and makes me feel ridiculous for even saying that because, you know, I was so lucky to have a nanny for a few hours a week and. But I could sell it like that. Like, oh, I'm gonna just go work with Heather. You remember Heather. It's Ashley's mom, and she's doing this little business. And as we started kind of working together, it was really fun and I really connected with Heather and I was like, holy crap, I kind of love this. And she was running this business and didn't really know about the business, had no clue what I was doing, but was doing it. And everybody was listening to her. And I was like, okay, I knew that I should stick with Heather. And then the one day. Do you want to tell about when I.

John Dehlin [02:20:10] Let me jump in and ask one question. So, Heather, so you would have had a divorce. And if you're getting divorced from a man who comes from money, I'm sure it's a complicated divorce. Lawyers are involved.

Heather Gay [02:20:21] I mean, it ended up. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:22] And I'm sure the finances are a significant part of that whole equation. And so whatever you would have ended up with, I'm just curious, kind of like, what went into this idea of, I want to start a business, I want to Buy a business. I want to become an entrepreneur. I want. I want to just get to the beginnings of your drive to do what becomes beauty lab. Is it because you needed to? Monetarily, was it because you needed to? Psychologically, was it because you. This is just. You've always wanted to start something. What. What was going on in your mind? You could have just, like, I'm sure, just lived on alimony and child support and raised your kids.

Heather Gay [02:21:02] Absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] So what was behind it? What were you thinking? What was driving you?

Heather Gay [02:21:07] I was absolutely dead inside.

John Dehlin [02:21:10] Meaning what? What? After the divorce?

Dre Nord [02:21:13] No joy.

Heather Gay [02:21:14] No joy, no hope, no palatable future. No guidance. And how to navigate the divorce?

Dre Nord [02:21:19] No.

Heather Gay [02:21:19] I couldn't even say I was divorced. I couldn't say ex husband. I couldn't say the girl's father. I still.

John Dehlin [02:21:26] Oh, you couldn't say that because.

Heather Gay [02:21:27] I couldn't say that because I couldn't admit myself. Too much shame. Yeah. And painful. And financially, you know, we were well taken care of. But I had. When he first separated, he kind of put me on a strict budget and I. I was not used to that. It was very hard for me. But so I had. That's when I had started kind of like getting creative and like doing Instagram and photography for free Botox and just finding ways to trade my skillset for perks that wouldn't come out of the budget. But then the divorce was settled and finances were fine, and there was no financial need for me to work. And that was. That was why, you know, it wasn't that he was just so generous. He's just like, I want a full time moment. And my attorney's like, well, then you have to pay her to be a full time mom. And so it was a very generous divorce and I was totally taken care of, but I was just dead inside. I had no guidance, no hope of a different future. I had no need, no financial need to start a second career, no financial need to work outside the home. And so I was living on the dole. And a part of me was like, he is gonna pay. I'm not gonna get remarried. I'm not gonna get him out of this. Like you're gonna. You know, the easiest part of this whole mess is for you to write a check. And you're gonna write a check because that's all. That's the only thing that even bridges the gap of my world being destroyed and his as well. But it didn't. I just had that scope and my children's, and I really made it about the kids. You know, the kids are gonna be messed up. The kids are from a broken home. The kids aren't gonna get to marry the people that they probably could have married because. Because they're not gonna be top three of the beauty pageant winners, you know what I mean? Because of this blight. And I also couldn't even fathom, like, my family tree and, like, how it was gonna work out, because I was so proud of that pedigree. And I had broken the whole line. So I had no hope, I had no palatable future. I had no joy, I had no happiness. I had no. I was absolutely dead inside. And I was still doubling down as a mom because of my love for my children and because I had been trained from an early age how to be a mom. So I could kind of dial that in. And the doctor asked, the doctor said, will you help me with this business? And I saw that the business was horribly run. It seemed obvious to me. But then I would sit in a meeting. They'd say, can you come to the meeting just, like, as our Instagram girl, to give us some insight? And. And they would sit there, and I'd say, well, this is ass backwards. Like, is no one else hearing what we're talking about? Like, this is your business. This is your plan. Get her. And I just. Was just speaking from my heart. And so when I was in it and when I was being asked, I performed, and I would say what I would do and what I would do different. And he knew I had financial means, so he asked if I wanted to buy in as a partner. And I was dead inside, so I didn't. Sure, you know, like I said, I'll see, so I'll work with you for three months and see. It became very clear to me that the business was tanking. They were bankrupt or going to soon be bankrupt and no money coming in. And I didn't want to be a partner with them. So I said, I'll buy it and pay you as, like, a contractor and see if I can figure this out. And I couldn't figure it out. I had no medical experience. I knew I had marketing and business. Intuitive business sense, wouldn't you say? That's probably my skill set. Instincts. I have great instincts and confidence and no other experience. And I was. I got in, bought it, sunk most of my divorce settlement and money I'd saved into purchasing it and running it because it was eating up money. And I realized that I was screwed. This was the Titanic. We say it was the Titanic on the bottom of the ocean. With barnacle. We were a barnacle. We just had. There was. It was absolutely not solvent. And I was terrified because now I had, with no desire, put myself in this position, and it was not going to succeed. So I was going to try to spin it and create some value and then sell it and just get out by the skin of my teeth. I knew I was going to lose money on it, but I didn't want to be destitute and have to be like, I made a bad choice. I bought a med spa, you know, and it failed. And so I was trying to get in, figure it out, spin it, sell it, and pretend it never happened. And that's when I reached out to Dre. And so I had. I had no ambition, really, other than to. At first, it was an opportunity that I was just, you know, I was an opportunist. I was like, okay, sure. Okay, I can make a buck. I can make a buck, or, let's see what I can do. And then it was like, oh, this is way too much, and I don't understand the business, and I gotta get out. And now I have to save my name and my dignity because I'm in it. And then I had Dre come help me, and within three months, like, her level of competence and her level of competence, I just can't explain, like, absolute competence. It was like having. It's like you've been pedaling a bike uphill, and all of a sudden someone's pedaling with you, and you're like, I love biking. She just was competent and effective and smart and didn't need any hand holding or anything. I mean, she just jumped in and was running with it, and she knew the business. And then all of a sudden, we realized it was a way for me to, like, you were the industry, so then I could come in with my business sense and say, let's switch this. And it was like we needed each other to kind of finish off of yin and yang.

Dre Nord [02:27:24] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:27:26] What value did you add, Dre? What were, like, two or three of the main things you brought?

Dre Nord [02:27:30] I mean, I think the main thing that I brought was experience in the med spa space. And so. So I could come in and say, okay, Heather, listen, this is how every med spa is doing it. What do you want to do? And she would say, well, I think that's dumb, and I don't like this thing, because she came from a pure consumer point of view. And so it was really the perfect marriage of experience versus. Or, like, the industry versus the consumer. And then it was like she would say how she wants it to go, and then I knew what, like, because there are a lot of regulations, because it's medical. Okay, well, we can't exactly do it that way. But I think I hear what you're saying. And so I think if we do this, this and this, we can create that experience and also still be compliant. And so I think my, my experience is what I brought. But then also, like, for some reason, Heather and I just vibed, like, I understood how she was and like, what she wanted. I knew her vision and I could see it. And I was excited about, like, making that a reality. And I think that has been like our. Our best thing together, you know, And

Heather Gay [02:28:39] I. I have to. It would. I would be remiss if I didn't say I could also be fully Mormon around Dre and also fully not Mormon. And I had never had a friend like that.

John Dehlin [02:28:49] What does that mean?

Dre Nord [02:28:51] Like, we could go for coffee and then she could. We could sing hymns together and I didn't care either way.

Heather Gay [02:28:56] And she had dinner and a cocktail in her husband's hand at 5pm her kids were her number one priority. She fit this in in bits and pieces where they. She was a dedicated stay at home mom with a side gig, as was I.

Dre Nord [02:29:10] Uh huh. And we could like text each other in the middle of the night and like, be like, I can't sleep because of this so and so's person. But like, also, I'm sorry I couldn't be there because I had choir. I had the choir concert. And like, oh, I'm sorry, we have to move that meeting at 3 o' clock because it's my day to carpool. Do you think if I was working with someone who wasn't in the same boat that that would even ever work? It wouldn't have. But like, we completely forgave each other for.

Heather Gay [02:29:36] And understood.

Dre Nord [02:29:36] And understood. Yeah, but. But we could like, the business could never be first, Heather. And, And I forgave you for that. And you forgave me for that. Because we would like, cry and think, do you know how successful we could be if we could just like dedicate actual time to this instead of like,

John Dehlin [02:29:50] if you had wives, basically.

Dre Nord [02:29:52] Yeah, yeah, if we had wives.

Heather Gay [02:29:54] She's my wife. And like, and you know, we would

John Dehlin [02:29:56] make that joke if you had stay at home wives.

Heather Gay [02:29:58] Oh, we would be. We'd be so much more successful.

Dre Nord [02:30:02] But I mean, essentially that's like a nanny and like, we've both had nannies and that still wasn't Enough, because it's the shame. Like, I could give my nanny 40 hours a week, but I give her 14 because, like, my husband and my kids want me home.

Heather Gay [02:30:17] And we sense that. And like, I can't ask Billy to pick up from school today or he said I won't. So I have to leave this meeting right now with. It's a million dollar deal. But I have to be at carpool at 3pm and I don't have an option.

Dre Nord [02:30:30] Literally, our podcast, we have to end it at a certain time because I have to pick up for school. Like, that's just. That is our absolute reality. We have to cram everything we do between nine and three. It was this perfect partnership that we both just understood exactly where each other were at. And being with Heather also was really good for me, like, to work through, like, even more of my issues with the church because, like, here was this person who I would, like, connected with on such a deep level. And, like, she was the exact kind of Mormon that I was too. And we could like, sing hymns together and, like, talk about the doctrine and the scriptures. And she let me say things like, well, that sounds made up, and.

Heather Gay [02:31:19] And I would be like, and.

Dre Nord [02:31:21] And she would joke back to me. But there was like, such mutual love and respect between the two of us that, like, it was just a safe place, you know what I mean? And it was really important for us to learn that too, because she was Mormon, I was ex Mormon, and we were trying to build a business that would appeal to women in Utah.

Heather Gay [02:31:42] Humans in Utah.

Dre Nord [02:31:43] Yeah. You know, but I mean, specifically women like us.

Heather Gay [02:31:46] Women like us.

Dre Nord [02:31:47] And, like, we really wanted to build a business that we would both want to go to. And so that means that we would have to make a safe place for women, regardless of their religious upbringing, regardless of what they believed. We wanted a place where everyone would feel comfortable. And so I think keeping that as our North Star helped us to be successful because it really wasn't about the money. Like, I didn't. I didn't need the money. I needed mental health. And Heather needed something to focus her energy on. And so it really wasn't about the money. And that is. I mean, not every. Hardly any businesses have that luxury, but we did.

Heather Gay [02:32:28] And it provided the way for us to build a business that was based on love. And we were motivated to empower women that were kind of burdened with perfectionism and burdened with shame and burdened with not feeling good about yourself and burdened with all kind of the plight of womanhood, you know, and we didn't want to. We wanted to meet them on their level because we felt it.

Dre Nord [02:32:55] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:32:56] And we loved them.

Dre Nord [02:32:57] Well.

Heather Gay [02:32:58] And truthfully, we wanted to alleviate it, you know, in some ways.

Dre Nord [02:33:00] Well, truth be told, it's. I mean, it can be kind of a tricky industry, especially in Utah. It's, there is a negative side to it. It's, you know, it's a med spa. And so we do things like Botox, lip filler, laser removal, skin care, medical weight loss, coolsculpting, kind of whitening, teeth whitening, kind of all of those bs, surface level, appearance type things that like there, there is a yucky side of that for sure. And, and Heather and I really leaned into, you know, what if we're gonna be in this industry, we both fell into it. Like, I got into it. Not like just a friend. I was desperate and so I needed a job there and that's how I got into it. Same with you. You were just doing social media. And so we're like, if we are gonna be in this industry, that can really be a slippery slope to vanity and not feeling good about yourself and all those things. Let's look at the light side of that. Let's look at, at the positive side. Let's empower women to feel good about themselves. Let's create a safe space. Let's let us women decide what we want to look like instead of having it dictated by a, you know, 70

Heather Gay [02:34:09] year old doctor, second counselor in the stake presidency, that your body's just fine, you know.

Dre Nord [02:34:15] Right. And so we both felt really passionate about the direction that we wanted to take the business. Still, of course, it was like just our fun side gig. And weirdly, like it started growing and we like started like people started talking about Beauty lab.

Heather Gay [02:34:35] Whatever we were doing was resonating. And I think what we were trying to do is say, this is a necessary evil. Looking good is a necessary evil. And we are going to take this asymmetry of information that favors the medical practices, favors the industry, favors the surgeons, and favors these men that come in and point out your insecurities, upsell you, take your money, you know, and send you on your way. We're gonna take that and we're gonna disrupt it. We're gonna say no more. We're gonna put the power back in the hands of our friends, of ourselves, and we're going to show all the ways that like this exploitative industry can really be harnessed to empower us, to dictate who we are, how we want to look, how much we're willing to pay and who gets our money. And that did not exist. We would all say self improvement is fine for teeth, for glasses, like Lasik, for hair color.

Dre Nord [02:35:30] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:35:31] Coloring in your eyebrows. Sure, sure, we'll allow that. It doesn't seem too invasive. But now the bar is getting lower and lower. So, like, what if I have a gummy smile and tiny lips and it keeps me from speaking up in meetings and it keeps me from standing up to my husband or letting my kids talk back to me, you know, because society has burdened us with what we want to look like. And for whatever reason, we don't know what planted those seeds of what we want to look like. But women know what they want to look like, and women should be able to define that for themselves and have access to whatever tools they need. And if it's Botox, so they don't see furrows of stress and worry on their brow or if it is lips, because they want to feel young and vibrant and more attractive to themselves or to their spouse or to whomever. If they want their receding chin to be injected. And it takes 15 minutes and it can take someone who's crippled with insecurity about that, and we can flip that in a 15 minute appointment for, for 900 bucks. That's a game changer. And no mom would deny their kid that opportunity. And the world is evolving and these are safe, affordable tools that are out there. But the medical industry has shamed us, made them ridiculously expensive, told us this terms which we could access them. And none of that was true. That was all what they presented to us. So when we bought our business and started Beauty Lab, we're like, you don't have to do $10,000 worth of injections. You can do $200. You can fix one mole if that one mole is keeping you from being your true self. And I certainly understand the feeling of like my outward appearance not reflecting like who I am, because kind of if we were to go back to byu, like I was like, you wanted to marry me. You know, because I was gonna. If you wanted someone that was gonna stick with it to the end, like marry me, but I didn't look like that type of girl. And I'm not saying injections or Beauty Lab could have changed that for me, but if it could have, I would want to know about it and choose if I wanted it or not. And so we made Kylie Jenner our muse. And since you're a fuddy duddy Mormon, you probably don't even know who Kylie Jenner is, I think I do. But she was 17 and she was in a very, you know, public, high profile family, High profile family in front of millions. And she chose to get her lips injected at 17. She was kind of scandalized for it and shamed and her family was. Because how could they let her do that? And this girl went from being a mousey teen to on the COVID of Forbes magazine. She built a billion dollar business off lips. And who are we to say that $1,000 and some needle in the lips weren't. Wasn't the biggest game changer of her life. Change your lips, change your life. And we are not sitting at the judge and jury table saying you're vain, saying you're small minded, saying your husband must not love you, saying you focus on the wrong things. We're saying, who the hell cares? Decide what is keeping you from living your best life. And if beauty lab can assist you in that, we're here for you. We're not gonna upsell you, we're not gonna screw you, we're not going to not be with you know what I mean? We're gonna stick with you until you like what you see in the mirror. And if injections can get you there, what a gift. Because a lot of the times injections won't solve the problem.

Dre Nord [02:39:22] Well, totally. And it's interesting because I do think that like I especially because I've been in the industry for a long time, I'm a little more jaded and I see I've, you know, I've seen the negative side of it and have my own personal opinions about just the ridiculous standards that we have as women in beauty. And I remember one time getting reading a DM from someone and she said, last week in my primary class, my kids told me I looked like a witch. And she said, and I could see it, I kind of did look like a witch. And I was like horrified and felt so sad for her. And then she said, and I came in, you guys are so cute. And I just want to let you know, I looked in the mirror today and I really like, I see myself and I feel so good and I don't think I look like a witch anymore. And I was like, okay, for me that's worth it if we help this sweet primary teacher mom lady who was feeling like she, the kids told her she looked like a wicked witch because kids have no filters and they say what they think. And it was so awesome to have helped her feel better about herself. And that's what we're Here for, yeah,

Heather Gay [02:40:35] we truly believe look good, feel good, because we know that we have crappy days where we're less effective, mean moms, bad friends, because we just can't fit in our jeans or don't like our hair or have a zit or. And that seems vain and ephemeral and childish, but them's the breaks and that's the world we live in. So who are we to say, oh, just dig deeper, write in your journal, go for a run. We do not fault people for trying to lose weight or getting in shape physically, we applaud them. But we somehow, you know, a woman who's like, my husband's, you know, flirting with his 18 year old secretary and I would like to inject my lips, invest in a facial and get Botox because I want to be more confident in my marriage and more present in my marriage, you know, not because of. So it's not like she's keeping up the Joneses. She's owning her space in the world and changing the things that she feels empowered to change. So if, like, this is the currency from which we are changing money, then we want to show women how to earn money, like on their own terms, anecdotally.

Beauty Lab, Self-Worth, and Mental Health

John Dehlin [02:41:47] Tell us some stories that your clients or patients would tell about how some of these changes that others would write off as superficial. And the story about the mom and the witch and the kids, that's a good one. Are there others where women will say, no, this actually really improved my quality of life, made me happier and healthier?

Dre Nord [02:42:10] Oh, absolutely.

Heather Gay [02:42:12] I would be hard pressed to find someone that it didn't.

John Dehlin [02:42:14] So tell us in different ways.

Dre Nord [02:42:15] Well, I mean, people say Botox is your best antidepressant and they actually have done studies on it because it freezes. So it's a neurotoxin that basically temporarily paralyzes your muscles. So we typically inject it here in between the eyebrows where you have this glabella muscle that. It's the frontalis, I guess, that you scowl.

Heather Gay [02:42:39] Yeah, your worry lines.

Dre Nord [02:42:40] And you create these worry lines. So when we relax that muscle, gosh, we're not scowling anymore. I mean, I can't even scowl.

Heather Gay [02:42:49] This is me, like being so mad. Scowl at me.

Dre Nord [02:42:52] I know I can't raise your eyebrows. I can a little bit. I got touch up. But anyway, we also do the smile lines and we do all. You know, there are a lot of different things that you can do, but they have done studies on if you smile more, then you feel happier. So imagine if you can't make an angry face, because it's all connected, you know, And I remember actually my stepbrother in law, he's a chiropractor, and I, I was talking to him about it and he found the study and sent it to me. And he was like, oh, my gosh, you're right. Because he was being funny with me about, oh, your Botox and whatever. And then he was like, oh, you know what, Dre, you're actually right. Like, people can feel happier by freezing that muscle and not making those worry scowls, you know, and, you know, so this science aside, I think people just, I mean, we have clients who have terrible acne scarring and you know what, our faces and our skin, that's what we present to the world. And, you know, teenagers, whatever. Like, we have a lot of clients with acne scarring or with acne. But I'm thinking of a couple in particular. One girl who, you know, came to us for a series of treatments and did. I mean, I think she wrote something on our Google page just raving about how having someone invested in her skin and giving her the right steps, the right products to use, the right treatments, how it has completely changed her life because now she's not afraid to turn on the zoom camera to, you know,

Heather Gay [02:44:31] speak up in class to ask a

Dre Nord [02:44:33] question and to have FaceTime with people because she's not feeling like, oh my gosh, what does my skin look like? It's broken out, it looks terrible, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, that feels really good. And I think we've curated an amazing staff at Beauty Lab. And that's been one of the things that's been most fulfilling about the business is to have these women and men. We employ like four, five men, but mostly women and mostly young girls in their early 20s. We had five that were pregnant this last year. They all had baby boys around the same time. And so, like, we are having an opportunity to work with these women who are us when we were that age, you know, having babies, but they have this career and they've chosen a career that is hands on with people and making people feel good about themselves, helping to improve their lives, and it's so incredibly rewarding. Would you agree?

Heather Gay [02:45:33] Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that not only do they get recognition for what they're able to contribute to their family, but then they have all of this fulfillment and opportunity outside the home where they're supported and cared for and productive. So they have the ability to just change lives, which you don't get in a part time job often. But we do. We try to focus on. We say, love is our currency at Beauty lab. We are not in the industry to make money. We are in the industry to change lives. And it's ridiculous for anyone to say, like, it's not only how you feel about yourself in the mirror. It's about how the world responds to you. Like, you know, when you're dressed up and, like, everywhere you go, you're like, why are people being so nice to me? You're like, oh, it's because I have makeup on and I'm dressed up, and, like, they're treating me this way. It's this reciprocal thing, and it's. We can't invalidate it because it's real. And even if it is perceived, if something can help someone feel better and more confident and more in their body and more present in the world, why would we deny that to them? Because it's vain or superficial or invasive. And we also. We feel very passionate about the fact that we want this to be a safe place where. Where it's for people that are struggling with gender dysmorphia or wanting to transition, you know, and they. If you're a man and you are transgender, you want to laser all the hair off your body.

Dre Nord [02:47:09] Yeah. And we have several.

John Dehlin [02:47:10] Trans female.

Heather Gay [02:47:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:12] If you're a trans female.

Dre Nord [02:47:14] And also if you are transitioning from female to male, we do a lot of Brazilian lasers for that. Well, not a lot, but we have a few that, before they go and get a gender reassignment surgery, they do have to be hairless. And so. And, like, that's been incredibly touching and amazing. I love our transgender clients.

Heather Gay [02:47:33] I love our and, like, jawlines and ability to just come in and, like, for anyone to say, like, your physical appearance isn't a prison, you know, like, take the extreme. Take someone that's transgender. Take someone that's, you know, has a hook nose and doesn't want a hook nose and doesn't want the family nose anymore. You know, we can inject it and take the bump away, and they walk out floating, and it's not that hard to do. And so to shame them for not embracing what they look like is the same way that we would say, shame someone with yellow teeth or broken teeth or roots or, you know, hair color that they don't like. Like, if you want to be a blonde with giant lips and huge boobs, go for it. And now what's your excuse now? Make an impact on the world. Go and change the world. And I feel like we say that to Every beauty lab, or, like, beauty labbers. We'll get you. We'll get you. If you can pay the speeding tickets, we'll get you in the driver's seat. You know, we will take away any impediments that are keeping you from embracing who you are and how you interact with. With the world. Because I will tell you as a woman, how I look and how I'm perceived dictates 90% of my day, every day. And that's just the hard truth of it.

Dre Nord [02:48:59] Mm.

Heather Gay [02:49:02] And that's sad, but that's the world we live in. And now it's exponentially exaggerated by Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, Zoom calls FaceTime. And it is across the demographic. It is universal. How we present our physical appearance to the world dictates the jobs we get, the friends we make, the men we attract, the women we attract, the pronouns people use with us. It is. Okay, I'm gonna get deep.

Dre Nord [02:49:36] Okay. I. Love

Heather Gay [02:49:40] is part of our doctrine that our physical appearance is our reward, and it is our prime, perfect moment in time. Physical appearance. And if that is what our goal is for eternity, of course we're gonna wanna do everything we can to get as close to that standard on Earth.

Dre Nord [02:50:04] You just blew my mind, Heather. I've never even thought. We've talked about this so much. How have we never.

Heather Gay [02:50:10] I don't know why I always think about it, like. Cause I think, like, you know, like when someone's come in and they've had a glow up, you know, and they've gotten their lips and they've gotten a facial and they're got. You know, they just are.

Dre Nord [02:50:21] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:50:21] They're feeling themselves in that moment. I always think. I wonder if that's what they'll pick, you know, Like, I want to be 26. I want to be 26 forever, you know? And like, you and I always say, like, we're finally coming into our own. Are we gonna be, like, 42 forever? You know what I mean? Like, maybe. And that's, like, beautiful. And that's our right to decide, you know? Cause we didn't have those tools when we were 21. We were just hoping for good genes, you know? And so when we say the perfectionism in the church, I would challenge people to get into a conversation about why the physical appearance and why perfecting the saints is so intrinsic to our core value, not only as humans, but as sons of sons and daughters of God.

Dre Nord [02:51:12] Yep. Boom. Mic drop in the name of baby.

John Dehlin [02:51:19] Is it hard? You know, so I'm thinking, are we

Heather Gay [02:51:24] Blowing your mind, John.

John Dehlin [02:51:25] That's good. No, this is good. It's important. I mean, this is reality. This is just, you know, part of what you're saying.

Heather Gay [02:51:30] We're looking at you and we're thinking Botox. I'm gonna say it. I'm just gonna say it.

John Dehlin [02:51:34] Do you guys get it?

Heather Gay [02:51:35] Well, we call it Brotox. You know, you'll be like, look how happy I am as an ex Mormon. And you'll just have this face, look, no worry, no concern.

John Dehlin [02:51:47] So there's a, that's a really compelling argument that this is the world that we're in. And you can either in some sense get on board and engage in the ways that everyone's engaging, where beauty and looks and health are all. It's currency, you know, or you can try and like reject all that and like, yeah, purely natural and, and downplay the importance of beauty and that. Honestly, that's been my approach.

Dre Nord [02:52:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:52:27] And there's some privilege of that because I don't think I'm like the ugliest guy in the world. Like, I. Yeah, I'm thinking it's easy

Dre Nord [02:52:33] for you to say, John.

John Dehlin [02:52:35] No, but, but I mean, like there's, there's two sides to it and I think you guys make a compelling case for that, that reality.

Dre Nord [02:52:44] Yeah, well, John, we're kind of like the, the John de Lynn's of cosmetic injections running Stay Mormon or Stay LDS Calm. You know, hey, if you gotta be in it, this is how to do it.

John Dehlin [02:52:58] No, no, I like that. But the other thing I was, I was gonna say is, is it hard for you guys to look at somebody who doesn't. Doesn't get injections, doesn't do Botox, maybe just has gray hair? Like Margi just has gray hair. Is it, is it hard to be in the industry and then not to look at people who have gone that other path of just like, like, just stay natural and go like, oh, they look really frumpy.

Dre Nord [02:53:25] Because you know what, Like, I mean, Margi's a great example. I don't know her personally, but I've seen her. She's a beautiful woman and like, you can tell that she is being authentic to herself. If she walked around with shame and feeling bad about herself because of her gray hair, then I would say like, oh, for sure, like do what you need to do. But like, she's clearly happy and loved and feels good about who she is as she should. And so no need to change anything if, like, if you're happy. That's how we. I Think that's how you feel, too.

Heather Gay [02:53:56] What it is for us is. And with all love and respect, like, you don't. We don't. Like, you don't get to even have an opinion.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] Yeah. Right. Yeah, of course.

Heather Gay [02:54:10] You know what I mean? If Margi. Margi or Margi.

John Dehlin [02:54:14] Yeah, Margi.

Heather Gay [02:54:15] I hate when I mess up. If Margi wants to shave her head and get a septum piercing, because that's beautiful to her, then we're gonna help her. You know what I mean? We're gonna be like, yeah, you know, come. Like, what it is for us is, like, we want to decide for ourselves what we need to function best in the world. And if that is, you know, vain, or if that is, like, it's about tapping into what you want or need. And so often it's been dictated by the way our dads and brothers think we should look or our boyfriends or, you know, and it's really saying no. Like, we know who we are, and we know when there's something incompatible with how we want to present to the world. And so stop shaming us for it. Stop telling us we're wrong or stop telling us that we don't need it. Because nobody knows what I need to be my best self. Except for me and except for every woman and every man and every human that walks into beauty lab. And all we're saying is, no shame, no upsell, no fear. This is a safe place for you to tap into your desires, and we'll give you the tools to facilitate it.

Dre Nord [02:55:30] But to answer your question, absolutely not. Tons of our friends don't think that beauty lab is ridiculous, and they would never get Botox. And it's like you. Do you, dude?

Heather Gay [02:55:40] Yeah. I don't think they think it's ridiculous. I just think we love and respect each other in our separate realms.

John Dehlin [02:55:46] That's what I'm getting at.

Heather Gay [02:55:46] That's what I'm getting at. Yeah. We have so many friends that would never consider it. And the second that they say, you know what? I am feeling bad about myself, we'd be like, get in our chair. It'll change your life.

Dre Nord [02:55:59] Totally.

Heather Gay [02:55:59] And it will, if that's important.

John Dehlin [02:56:01] So there's this organization called Encircle. I'm sure you've heard of it. It's these LGBT safe houses for kids and youth, and they have a motto which is no sides, only love. And in the world that I'm in, where I'm trying to help people feel like you actually can find healing and joy outside of religion, it's Very easy in that world for things to be very polarized, where it's like, oh, you're either an orthodox believing Mormon or you're. You're an ex Mormon that hates religion and is atheist. And I hate that. I. That is the perception people have. People think I feed it. And I just want to go on the record. And. And Dre, you've mentioned this. Like, I hate that. I just want. I literally. I'm not trying to get people out of the church. I'm not trying to take down the church. I really. I'm connecting with what you're saying, because what I want is I want everybody to understand the world as it really is and then make empowered decisions with all the information about what each individual person wants to do in their lives. And if they want to decide, okay, they know about kinderhook plates and the papyrus and the polyandry, and they want to be Mormon, I swear to a secular God that I'm happy for them. Go do it, but do it because you've got all the information, and it comes from within versus for some other reason. And so I don't want the polarization. I just want people to get all the information and then make empowered, individual decisions. And I don't even want sides. And so I guess I was kind of saying not like, is it my job to have an opinion about whether Margi colors her hair or not or has breast augmentation?

Heather Gay [02:57:34] I'm not saying that to be provocative.

John Dehlin [02:57:36] No, but. No, but it's. No, but it's a crucial point because men. It's not men's business to have opinions about women's appearances, really. Right. It's a woman's job to get empowered and do what makes them feel good. But what I. What I. You know, and this comes up with things like alcohol. Like, sometimes people are really uncomfortable that I don't drink, and they always bring it up and make a big difference. What I want to live in a world where you can drink or not drink, drink, and nobody makes a comment. It's just like, you drink or don't drink as much or as little as you want, because that's you. You're in the church or you're religious or not, but it's you. You're. You're you.

Heather Gay [02:58:12] That's what you want.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] You go to beauty lab or you don't, and it doesn't matter. No sides.

Dre Nord [02:58:17] Yeah, we're on the same team.

John Dehlin [02:58:18] We just want informed, empowered people doing whatever it does to make them feel good. And that's What I'm really vibing with about what you guys are saying.

Heather Gay [02:58:27] 100. Our mission statement, we say love is our career currency. You know, absolutely authentic and transparent about what is available to you, how it'll work, what it won't.

Dre Nord [02:58:39] Do you know how much it's going

Heather Gay [02:58:40] to cost, how much it's going to cost. And only. No sides, only love.

John Dehlin [02:58:45] Is that good?

Dre Nord [02:58:46] Totally.

Heather Gay [02:58:46] So good.

John Dehlin [02:58:47] That's a shout out to Stephanie Sorenson Larsen. That's. That's.

Heather Gay [02:58:50] And Twin Circle for the work they're doing.

Dre Nord [02:58:52] That's really awesome.

John Dehlin [02:58:53] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:58:53] And to be honest, we are plenty

John Dehlin [02:58:56] of friends that people. Oh, yeah, let me capture that. High five.

Heather Gay [02:58:59] High five.

John Dehlin [02:59:03] But I have plenty of friends, dear friends, that. That have done all sorts of things. And I just want it to not be an issue. I just want people to be happy. So I'm going to get people like, I can't believe you. You know, they're going to be. There's going to be people like, I'm so glad you talked about this. We don't talk about this enough. It's so great you had these women on. On to talk about these things that we're all afraid to talk about. And I'm gonna get haters that are like, oh, I can't believe you brought that bod. And this industry.

Dre Nord [02:59:29] Right.

John Dehlin [02:59:29] And I just want to say I don't want. I don't care about any of that. Don't write me. Don't write me if you want to complain that we had this real conversation because this is the reality we're living in. And I love it that you guys are just owning it. Well, and because it's reality. It's what we're faced with. Right?

Dre Nord [02:59:44] Yeah. That's the thing, John. This is the business we're in. We're used to the. The feedback. Like. Like there are a lot of people that don't. Thank you for your feedback. Yeah. Thank you for your feedback. And yeah, it's a hard conversation to have because it's just a hard conversation to have. And so we get it. It's unnecessary for you to leave it in the comments, those of you who disagree. But if you want to, we're not offended by it because we get it. Everyone has their own opinions. And we are doing the best that we possibly can with what we have to deal with here. And we want. Our goal is to empower people to feel good about themselves and to have everything they possibly could need to live their best lives. And if we can be a tiny part of that, then Bring it on. We're happy to do it.

Heather Gay [03:00:33] And we always say we're all in this together because we're coming from a place of like community and love and, and empathy. You know, because some people are born, there's no such thing as natural beauty in terms of what the world expects from us. That's why we have filters and facetune and all these things. And if we can just say, listen, we're all in this together and we're going to be an ally to whomever wants the tools necessary to feel in sync with their physical and their inner self. And that's hard to say because we're not trying to take something vulgar and make it noble. We are in it to be noble. 100%.

Dre Nord [03:01:19] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [03:01:21] Talk about, you talked about kind of the self harm stuff and maybe even some of the. Is there something around suicide in your business? Talk about that.

Heather Gay [03:01:28] Are we okay on.

Dre Nord [03:01:30] Yeah, we have just a few minutes. So I mean.

Heather Gay [03:01:35] Well, I would say like kind of the pinnacle of a moment of huge success for Beauty Lab. We're so young, we're so new. We're not physically young, but the business is. We started it in 2016 about mid year. You know, we started Mini Lip Plump in September of 2016, which was a new outcome based lip injection that we

Dre Nord [03:01:58] invented.

Heather Gay [03:01:58] Invented for people that just wanted a little something something and didn't want to do the whole big. And that was radical in the medical industry. And we got a lot of really mean Mormon plastic surgeons calling us and berating us and humiliating us and copying us. And we took a lot of hits.

Dre Nord [03:02:17] A lot of Christmas Eve phone calls.

Heather Gay [03:02:19] Christmas Eve phone calls. You know who you are. And that was September of 2016. And then that kind of got us on the map. We continued to disrupt the industry. We continued to grow exponentially. I mean our growth was phenomenal. And then in 2019, well then we started filming. Well, we started interviewing for the show Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. They announced it to us in October.

Dre Nord [03:02:47] Yeah.

Heather Gay [03:02:47] And it was going to be announced at BravoCon in November of 2019. And so that was kind of this moment, this huge moment. Because this was big. This is a huge international platform. Beauty Lab is gonna be featured. We're gonna be featured. Kind of the culmination of a lot of our success, but still very in its infancy. Beauty Lab had only existed for two years and we were hitting it hard. So we were, you know, we were really blowing things up. And so they announced it I think on November 16th or 19th.

Dre Nord [03:03:19] Yeah.

Heather Gay [03:03:19] So this is a big moment for us because they're announcing Beauty Lab as part of this international television show, which is going to give us a chance to reach more people, be more successful, and expand the business. But in addition to that, we were asked to judge on Shark Tank.

Dre Nord [03:03:36] Yeah. Utah Shark Tank.

Heather Gay [03:03:37] Utah Shark Tank for Silicon Slopes, which for us as individuals was us kind of being recognized for our business prowess and to give back to the community in a way that validated us as business women and not as stay at home moms with a side gig, but. But authentic, authorized, informed business women that are on a panel for Utah Shark Tank. That was huge to us, and that was on November 21st. So it's just kind of hitting. So we have the announcement. We're on cloud nine. We're gonna start filming on November 22nd. Was our first day to film November 21st. We go, and we are driving down to be judges on Shark Tank. And you remember this conversation?

Dre Nord [03:04:23] Yeah, we just. We had a talk about God randomly. And it's a conversation. Heather and I talk about religion and our own faith and faith crisis and all of the things, but I can't remember what exactly it was that we were talking about, but I referred to the CES letter, and I said, well, Heather, you know, you can, like, look that up, though, Like. And she said that. She was like, you know what, Dre? Like, I really don't want to. I don't know that I want to know what's there, because I'm kind of good just staying in my lane and believing what I believe.

Heather Gay [03:05:02] And I love my faith. I didn't want to sully it with reality. That's true for much of life.

Dre Nord [03:05:09] Yeah. But it was kind of like, it was revealing to me that I was like. Because it was the first time that she acknowledged that, like, there might be some things that she could find out that wouldn't work for her, and that she was, like, actively choosing not to explore that, you know, and because we joke about it a lot. Sounds made up, you know?

Heather Gay [03:05:29] Sounds made up.

Dre Nord [03:05:30] Yeah. Coined by my brother Tim, and sounds made up. But it was a really poignant day. And I remember she said, well, Dre, do you even believe in God? And I was like, you know what? I don't know, because I really don't. I don't know. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't, but I really feel safe being in a place of. I don't know. I like that space. And it took me a long time to get there because it's uncomfortable, especially when you know everything now it's. I don't know. And like, we had this really nice connection that day, and it felt like a big payoff.

Heather Gay [03:06:10] It felt like a big day for us.

Dre Nord [03:06:12] Yeah.

Heather Gay [03:06:13] You know, it had been hard to get there. We had done this in the shadows as moms, and now we were like owning our position. We were gonna have the television show, which validated a lot of our hard work. And we were celebrating.

Dre Nord [03:06:29] Yeah, yeah, we were. And had. And had had this really lovely connection, like, earlier that day. Anyway, that day ended up being the very worst day of my entire life because my little brother, who.

Heather Gay [03:06:43] Well, tell it like, I dropped you off at beauty lab.

Dre Nord [03:06:46] Yeah, you dropped me back off at beauty lab.

Heather Gay [03:06:47] And then I do something too. I went to go drive home. I think your car was there or something.

Dre Nord [03:06:51] Yeah. And I had gone upstairs up to beauty lab and I was at the front desk. I got a phone call on my mom's phone, but it wasn't my mom. It was my mom's best friend Sue's. And she gave me the news that my little brother Tim, who was like 10 days shy of two years younger than me, so we were best friends. He's my closest sibling. Anyway, he had taken his life. He died by suicide on November 21, 2019. And it is like I've never felt pain. I've had really horrible things happen in my life, but I never felt pain like that.

John Dehlin [03:07:40] And.

Dre Nord [03:07:41] Sorry, not really crier usually, but I just didn't know how I was ever going to get through that. And I mean, it's the worst thing that's ever happened. And. And I think if there's a gift that I have, I am resilient. And Heather and I kind of made it our goal to find some way to find some good in that experience. It was. I mean, it rocked our world. And Tim was really close with Heather, too, and he was a fixture at beauty lab. He was close with the whole staff.

Heather Gay [03:08:40] Never missed a Saturday.

Dre Nord [03:08:42] Yeah. And he was a happy, good looking, successful, smart. Smart, vibrant, wonderful, human. Or so people thought. That's what he presented. And he was obviously deeply miserable in real life, but people were shocked and it was shocking to us and devastating. And it changed my life. My life is totally different now. I see things differently. I've made different decisions for my life because life is too short. And Tim was her person.

Heather Gay [03:09:25] Tim was your person?

Dre Nord [03:09:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was. And if I can't do life with Tim, I'm gonna have to do it different now. And so I am I just miss him.

John Dehlin [03:09:45] So,

Dre Nord [03:09:47] anyway, it's suicide. And mental health has, like, kind of become our platform and because we've been touched by it and it was so unnecessary, we didn't need to lose Tim, we did. And so. So, like us making lemonade out of the pile of shit that was delivered to us through that experience has been to really channel as much energy as we can at Beauty Lab and just in our own personal lives towards raising awareness for mental health, specifically for mental health with men. I think, think it's, especially in our culture, it's really tough for men to talk and to express their feelings and to feel safe to share when they're struggling.

Heather Gay [03:10:50] And so 75%, statistically, 75% of all suicides are committed by men. And so women can talk and get therapy and cry on their friend's shoulder and go to lunch and have breakdowns, but. But we don't make those same allowances for men. And we grieve that because we don't know if it would have made a difference to Tim, but we have to believe that it could make a difference to someone, you know?

Dre Nord [03:11:17] Yeah. And so this year has really been huge for us as far as having a dialogue about mental health. It's something, you know, we have a therapist on staff for our staff because we want everybody to get therapy. We want everyone to have opportunities to invest in their own mental health. We also started the Don't Leave foundation, which is a cute hashtag that we started just on our social media. When people would leave, we'd be having so much fun at Beauty Lab. We'd say, don't leave, don't leave.

Heather Gay [03:11:49] And then as they'd walk out, we'd film and we. And that was our hashtag.

Dre Nord [03:11:52] Yeah, don't leave. And so we actually had so many of Tim. Yeah, we had so many. Like, every Saturday he'd come in, don't leave, Tim. And so we did start a foundation called Don't Leave. We weren't sure what we wanted to do with it. We just knew we wanted to do something about raising awareness for suicide and also just mental health in general. And then we've kind of turned it into. Basically, Heather had this idea years ago that she wanted to treat clients of ours who had overcome drug addiction, who had track mark scars. And we've always talked about. We did a couple.

Heather Gay [03:12:33] We did a couple people that were willing to say, you know, I used to be a heroin addict and I have these scars. And we were like, oh, let us treat you for free, you know, but it was hard to find people and we didn't really have a forum to advertise it.

Dre Nord [03:12:43] Yeah.

Heather Gay [03:12:43] But when we wanted to do don't leave, you said specifically, like, statistically suicide prevention doesn't work. You know, it's like suicide prevention. So we're like, what can we do that's tactile and can make a difference? Like the starfish mentality. Like it makes a difference to this one. You know, like we didn't want a 1, 800 number. We didn't want to. We wanted to one by one chip away at shame and grief and guilt and fear and triggers and mental health awareness. You know, that's what you married together.

Dre Nord [03:13:19] Yeah. So what we're offering now at Beauty lab is free self harm scar and track mark scar treatment. It's just a quick laser treatment. You typically need several. It's never gonna get rid of them fully. But we personally know people who have self harm scars and it holds them back, it makes them feel like, you know, I have a friend who was stressed about spring coming because he's like, I'm gonna have to wear short sleeves now and I can't cover. And my co workers, my colleagues are going to know that I've done this. And that was kind of what inspired us. And so we offer free treatments for anybody who wants to come in. No questions asked. We'll do it as many times as we need to. And the response has been staggering. It has like, it's changed our whole staff and it's added meaning to have someone come in, someone so much braver

Heather Gay [03:14:19] than like I could ever be and more courageous and, and more humble, you know, because like my harm, like I hid from all of, I mean I have never self harmed, but like I hid from my divorce, I hid from my faith. I hid, you know, to toe the line. And we see these incredibly brave souls that come in and say, you say it best.

Dre Nord [03:14:41] Yeah, they just say, yep, I've touched the dark and I didn't want to be here. Or I felt like I had no value or I felt like I was in so much pain that I would rather hurt myself or try to die than to be here. But I stayed and I'm gonna do my life.

Heather Gay [03:15:03] I'm alive and I'm here and yeah.

Dre Nord [03:15:06] And just the amount of vulnerability that these clients have and the humility also, and bravery, it's staggering. And we have had a huge response. There are a lot of people in Salt Lake City who have struggled to the point where they have scarring on their body to show it. And it has made this year meaningful and really amazing in a year that

Heather Gay [03:15:43] was rife with pain and grief.

Dre Nord [03:15:48] Grief, yeah. So that's what we're doing.

Heather Gay [03:15:53] And don't leave is like. It's all we care about. It's all we care. I know.

Dre Nord [03:15:58] We're just like, both, like, what?

Heather Gay [03:16:00] Your friend has a track mark from heroin. You see. Bring her in.

Dre Nord [03:16:04] Yes.

Heather Gay [03:16:04] And then we'll talk about your lips.

Dre Nord [03:16:05] Yes. Yeah. Anyway, so that's.

John Dehlin [03:16:09] Talk about beauty.

Heather Gay [03:16:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:11] That's beautiful.

Dre Nord [03:16:12] Thank you. And I.

Heather Gay [03:16:14] And I always say, like, just like with service, when you render service, it comes back to tenfold. It's an honor for us to be an ally to our friends in the community that need help, you know, it's an honor for us to share the pain we have felt from losing Tim and have people help us somehow bridge that pain, you know, by, like, accepting the service.

Dre Nord [03:16:43] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And that's what it feels like.

Heather Gay [03:16:48] It feels very reciprocal.

Dre Nord [03:16:49] It does. And it feels like, you know, when you're sitting back there with a client and they're, you know, showing their wounds, their scars, their darkest point, it feels like a little bit of Tim, at least for me, That's. I feel like he would be proud. And I feel like he. He felt that too, obviously. And I'm glad that the people that stayed, stayed. I'm glad that they're here, that they didn't leave.

Heather Gay [03:17:23] And I feel, because Tim wasn't my brother, I feel like, to me, he was kind of a hero. He was kind of the underdog advocate. He was kind of the hype guy. He would sense in a room. He's so empathetic. He could sense somebody that was out of place and he would rally them. He did it for me many times, and I feel like he liked to just help the one. And I feel like this one on one way that we honor him with don't leave is like, he would be proud of that.

Dre Nord [03:17:56] Yeah.

Heather Gay [03:17:56] Because it makes a significant difference to one person in that one moment, you know, and it's not like big, sweeping, phone a friend, you know, it's like, it's real. Get down on your knees and love somebody and fix and do whatever you have in your power to fix them. And we have lasers and we have medical experts, and we have time and we have money, and we will dedicate it time and again to helping anyone that's brave enough to ask for it or show up and receive it.

Dre Nord [03:18:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:29] And you have big, beautiful hearts is what you have. That's what you guys have. Don't leave.

Dre Nord [03:18:36] Don't leave.

John Dehlin [03:18:37] That's so beautiful. Don't leave. I love it. Don't leave.

Heather Gay [03:18:41] Don't leave.

John Dehlin [03:18:41] I say that all the time. When. When I'm with people that I love. That's what I say. I say don't leave.

Dre Nord [03:18:47] Yeah.

Heather Gay [03:18:47] Don't leave.

John Dehlin [03:18:48] Don't leave. Don't leave. Don't leave. That's great. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Dre Nord [03:18:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:18:55] So beautiful. Thank you, you guys. Multi dimensionally beautiful.

Heather Gay [03:19:02] Lips, cheeks, hearts, souls.

John Dehlin [03:19:10] Well, I have bad news and good news. Bad news is we're not done. We didn't get to everything we wanted to get to. The good news is I think you said part three. Did you say part three?

Heather Gay [03:19:20] Just like the triptych, we are a sacred collection of three texts.

John Dehlin [03:19:26] You guys will come back for one more?

Dre Nord [03:19:27] Yeah, we'd love to. Rocky, we gotta talk about Heather's faith. We gotta get. We need a four.

Heather Gay [03:19:32] We gotta walk through my faith crisis.

Dre Nord [03:19:35] Full episode dedicated to.

Heather Gay [03:19:36] Superman III was the best. Superman, Rocky III possibly the best. Rocky, Drether, Gay and Dream.

John Dehlin [03:19:43] Rocky three was good.

Heather Gay [03:19:44] Rocky three was great. Home Alone three, Debatable. But Drethor the third will come back. I married Billy Gay iii. That's elected.

Dre Nord [03:19:52] I have three kids. You have three kids.

John Dehlin [03:19:54] Oh, Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Dre Nord [03:19:55] Yep.

Heather Gay [03:19:56] Yeah.

Dre Nord [03:19:56] Rule of threes. Oh, my gosh.

Heather Gay [03:19:57] Rule of threes. Here we go.

John Dehlin [03:20:00] So we are gonna. Don't go away. We are gonna come right back another day. Hopefully this week we'll figure that out. And we're gonna do part three where we'll talk about Heather's faith journey, other things about Heather and Dre's awesome partnership and relationship and friendship. And we'll figure out if there's some things about Real Housewives we can talk about without making the producers mad. We'll figure that out. But answer no. Maybe there's not. But thank you for joining us, you guys. Thank you so much much for coming on super powerful important themes. So wise and vulnerable and powerful and inspirational. So I love you guys. Don't leave.

Heather Gay [03:20:45] We love you too.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] Don't leave.

Dre Nord [03:20:46] Don't leave.

John Dehlin [03:20:47] You gotta go.

Dre Nord [03:20:48] Yeah, we gotta go. We gotta pick up our kids. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:20:51] All right, thanks.

Dre Nord [03:20:52] Thanks for having us.

Heather Gay [03:20:53] I'll be with you till we meet again.

John Dehlin [03:20:54] All right, thanks, everybody. We'll see you again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Part Three Begins: Reflections on Faith and Identity

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1371

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part three of this epic Mormon Stories podcast. Interview with Gay and Dre with Heather.

Heather Gay [00:00:09] You can't rebrand us, Heather Gay.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] All right, what do you guys introduce yourself as? Go ahead and do it.

Heather Gay [00:00:14] It's Drether the trilogy. Now for Lord of the Rings.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] This is Heather Gay and Dre Nord, also known as two of the many stars of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, broadcasted on Bravo tv. Currently episode six has been released. It is a hit nationally, internationally. And we've already done two sit downs with Heather and Dre, and we've talked about all sorts of stuff. You're going to discuss to go back and watch both of the first two episodes. Today, we're going to be talking about a few things. We are going to be talking about Heather's. You know, we ended last time with. With Heather's marriage kind of being on the outs, kind of moving towards separation or divorce. And we also talked about how that led to Heather and Dre being able to start their amazing business, beauty lab. And we talked a lot about their business and kind of what they do and beauty and. And humans and life and that sort of thing. Today, we're going to be talking about Heather's faith journey and her life post separation and divorce. We're going to be talking also about Dre's life, her faith journey, and her second marriage. And we are going to be talking then about how they sort of went from being successful business women to the emergence of this opportunity to be on the Real Housewives. And then we're just going to talk about what it's like to be on Real Housewives. We're not going to be doing plot spoilers or getting into personalities, but we're going to ask a lot of questions just about what it's like, how it works, and whatever they want to share. So I'm. I'm Dr. John Dehlin. I'm so thrilled to have you guys back. Thank you for coming back for part three. You guys are gluttons for punishment.

Dre Nord [00:02:10] We have so much to say. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:02:12] Back by popular demand.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Absolutely.

Heather Gay [00:02:15] We didn't realize we had so much to say or that it was interesting to anybody.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] It's been big.

Dre Nord [00:02:20] Yeah. And I feel like it's just been therapy for us.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:02:23] Like, we should probably pay you.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] No, that's good. Listen, your presence is edifying and uplifting. It's true.

Heather Gay [00:02:32] No, it for sure has been cathartic and therapeutic for me to sit here and kind of own it. You know, that's the hardest part for me is because I haven't articulated it or defined it for myself. So for you to sit here and ask me questions, it's great for me to like, dig deep and kind of wade through it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] What's the reaction been so far? Just real quick, any. Anything you want to share about the reactions? Friends, family, just fans, like just the

Heather Gay [00:03:01] kindred spirits that are out there, you know?

Dre Nord [00:03:04] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:03:05] I would never have had the courage to reach out to someone and say, I'm feeling the same way as you. I would have been like, you're going to hell. You know, I wouldn't have thought that. I've. I think. I just think there's a lot of love in the universe and we are more alike than we are different. And it's not just unique to Mormonism or unique to, you know, white privileged girls in East Bench Holiday, you know, it's pain is universal, like you've said. And in sharing our stories and kind of breaking the veneer, there's connection to be made. And those connections mean everything to me. And so to everybody that's reached out, like, I would just say thank you. And it's healing and it feels good, not gonna lie, you know, it makes the trolls just like. You just kind of like flick the trolls like the ants on the sandwich, you know, you just flick those off because the bounty is the picnic is worth it. And that's only because people are willing to share and like, be honest and take time out of their day to like, express appreciation and love and that's like, important. And I'm not gonna forget that, you know, I'm gonna try to do that more totally.

Dre Nord [00:04:23] And I'm excited because, like, of course we're all watching Real Housewives and it's so fun to see Heather and like, her personality and she's so smart and funny and there's a lot of heart, I think that is shown there. But I'm thrilled that, like, people are getting more of an in depth view on who Heather is as a person and as a Mormon and as a mother and a woman, which, you know, of course they can't show all of that on Real Housewives. And so it's. The feedback has been awesome. I think people have been somewhat surprised, but also like, just really excited. Like, I saw a lot of comments, like, I didn't expect much from Real Housewives, but like, wow, this was real and touching. So that, that's been good.

Heather Gay [00:05:10] And I would say in that same note, like, if you were to put any housewife I think there's like, there's only like a hundred Real Housewives in the world, you know, based on the definition by international television. And if, I guarantee, if you put any of them on this chair, the stories would be.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] There's depth in every story.

Heather Gay [00:05:32] There's. There is joy and pain and fear and intelligence and. Yeah. Talent in every single one. Beyond and beyond and beyond. And I am continually reminded of the universality of our human experience. You know, and these are just women that are willing to have a special skill set which is, you know, a lack of inhibition and, and also a strange death wish or confidence maybe, because people, like, I think people assume a lot of time that I'm insecure, but like, I've never had a problem with confidence. And in a way that's been a burden for me because I'm just like, what do you mean you don't like me?

John Dehlin [00:06:16] You know, who wouldn't like me?

Heather Gay [00:06:19] Yeah. And I think that that type of like, that, that ability to just show up in the world is something that I admire about everyone that goes on tv because I love reality television and I love people just doing cringe worthy, embarrassing things on TV because it exposes the humanity in all of us.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] Like episode six, for example, I would

Heather Gay [00:06:42] say episode six, you know, I would tell everyone to tune in and watch the Phoenix rising from the ashes, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Yeah. Well, two things I just want to say is that I think your friendship is really charming and fun and powerful and I love both of you in terms of how you play off each other, how you support each other, how you've succeeded together and how you show up for each other. So that's also super powerful for me. It's very inspiring.

Heather Gay [00:07:12] It is a big. We don't talk about that as much like finding each other. Yeah, it's like that scene in Sex and the City where they're like, maybe we're each other's soulmates and we can just use men for fun, you know, Isn't it Charlotte that says that?

John Dehlin [00:07:27] Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And then also the ex woman crowds are rough. Can be a rough crowd. They can be rough on me, on other people. And I was so thrilled to see on the ex Mormon Reddit, shout out to the ex Mormon Reddit how, you know, there was a thread where they're just like, yeah, I wasn't going to watch because Real Housewives, why would we ever watch? But I started watching the interview and they were just, they were sucked in and said it was super meaningful and rich. And so when it's my. When my peeps are loving, I love it. You know, I was gonna interview guys no matter what, and I knew it was gonna be a good interview. I didn't know if my peeps would give it a chance.

Dre Nord [00:08:01] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] And those that have have been ritually rewarded.

Heather Gay [00:08:04] It just write us off because we're so beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Yeah. It's like, no, they can't be. They can't be brilliant and beautiful. No one's got that much. We're not really.

Heather Gay [00:08:12] We're just talking through it, you know?

Dre Nord [00:08:14] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:08:15] I don't watch or read ex Mormon Reddit because of the word ex Mormon yet. I do, but I do know someone that probably does. But I will. You know, I need to break away from my fears of the. I won't say the dark side of the other side of the line too, because there's gotta be. There's such a community there that I felt the support from. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] We're freaking amazing.

Heather Gay [00:08:36] Heather, Shout out to your people. To your people.

Dre Nord [00:08:39] I've been saying this for a while. Like, heather, just let your ex Mormons love you. Like, we've got you. Don't worry about what's happening.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] It's time. Time to let your ex Mormon freak flag fly.

Heather Gay [00:08:50] I'm not an ex Mormon.

Dre Nord [00:08:51] I know that's the problem. But. But we still love you and support you.

Heather Gay [00:08:54] I know. And I. Yeah, I. I'm a non. Right now. I would say I'm a non practicing Mormon, but I'm. That changes depending on my crowd. Had I known that Gerardo's mom was an orthodox Mormon, I would have switched

John Dehlin [00:09:08] off,

Heather Gay [00:09:10] you know, and I would have, like, because I have dear Mormon friends and they bring out the Mormon in me. And I can fall into. I can fall out of that canoe as easily as I can fall out of the canoe into total debauchery, you know, and that type of. That schism is something that I'm navigating, you know?

John Dehlin [00:09:28] Me too. I still haven't tried alcohol. I told you guys that.

Heather Gay [00:09:32] Look, I know who's your. Your first drink is going to be Dre.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] All right, okay, so let us. Let's go back. We. We ended with a very heart wrenching story about your brother's death by suicide last year. And that was sort of at the precipice of when Real Housewives was going to be really emerging. And I think that was a really important way to talk about Beauty Lab and the foundation. Don't. Don't leave. Right. The foundation, which was. You got to Go back and watch all that. And if you. If you stopped on episode two without going all the way to the end, you need to go back because it's powerful. Having said that, we're going to rewind and we're going to go back to before when Beauty Lab. Did I say Love Lab? When Beauty Lab was just a twinkle in Heather's eye. We're going to go to Heather's, you know, the unraveling of Heather's marriage, and then we're going to talk about the evolution and the unraveling of Heather's faith. Because all of that, as you mentioned, had to happen to then make Beauty Lab and then Real Housewives possible. So should we. Should we go back? Tell us where you want to begin.

Separation, Divorce, and Church Leadership

Heather Gay [00:10:44] Well, I mean, I think probably the. If I were to say, like, the most pivotal time in my life was right when we separated, my husband and I separated, and you just kind of

John Dehlin [00:10:57] said, I think you should go. You kind of. You called him out on his threat. Yeah. And he took it.

Heather Gay [00:11:02] But I have. I mean, I never, ever thought divorce was an option. I didn't think divorce was an option.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] And let's be frank. In marriages with Margi and I, probably in at least hundreds, if not a thousand times, one of us said, I'm leaving, or one of us said, you should just go. Like, just. I mean, we had to work through a lot. So, I mean, I'm just saying, for me, that's like. Oh, yeah. That's like every month of my marriage before 2012, you know, I thought this

Heather Gay [00:11:28] was just a fight. Yeah, just a fight. And it was the fight where I was going to get some ground and be like, guess what? This is the new me. And I like me and people like me, you know, and you need to like me.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] And I really think I was as a businesswoman. Mom. Right. As a powerful, empowered human.

Heather Gay [00:11:47] Human as a partner. Like, I will like you. I'm pretending to like you, you know, and just. So, like, pretend to like me. Just pretend. And maybe if you fake it long enough, you really will, because I think I had to get out from under that auspice of, you know, it's. I just. I couldn't. I just wanted to be liked.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:12:12] And I was feeling it in every single area of my life, except for with my spouse. And it was because I had probably married him under a different, you know, definition of who I was really becoming. But I. I digress. I just. I really thought, like, I just. I know that we kind of said, like, I wanted it to end. And I wanted to get out. And I. I mean, that's like the deepest, darkest recesses of the corners of my heart. That was never going to surface. That was never gonna be said. I was willing to absolutely just put my head down and be miserable and be married. Marriage was the important thing to me. Not because of my own pride a little bit, that played in, for sure, but I. For my children. For my children, for my family, for the family line. I look back at my ancestors. Do I think that Sarah Bins, the third wife of Henry William Chipman, that had to raise not only her 11 children, but the nine children of the second wife that passed, Do I think that she woke up feeling fulfilled and joyful and, you know, excited about a possible enterprise? No. She woke up, she lit the fire, she made the meals, she cooked the food, she had the babies, and she toed the line. And I think that that is beautiful and noble, and I respect and love that. And I don't have anything but admiration for those women, and I wanted to be that woman. So there was a sense of martyrdom in it all. But when it came down to it, I couldn't align who I thought I could be with who I actually was. And who I actually was was making my husband miserable. And I dug in and I thought that we would work it out, and we didn't. And that was. That reality took me a long time to accept. And so I did not accept that we were separated. I did not accept that our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] But he did move out, right?

Heather Gay [00:14:15] And he moved out. Yeah, he moved out. We had a therapy session, and my dad had met with him and took me to lunch and kind of said, hey, listen, you know, like, I've talked to Billy, and I think. I think we worked some stuff out, you know, and I think you're going to be fine. And my dad was very close to him, you know, because that was kind of my dad's skill set. He was a great man, and he could relate to people and talk through it in terms of practicality. And he just kind of said, he's going to work more. He's going to take some, you know, he's going to be out of the house more. He's going to, like, find more fulfillment outside of the home. And so that'll, you know, de. Stress the tension there, and if you're willing to work through it. And I was like, I've never not been willing to work through it, but, like, I can see how, from my dad's perspective, he thought I was Just like, you know, but I. And I was in some ways, but not at the expense of my marriage. You know, if this is really coming down to it, than, like, what do I need to do? What do I need to say? And so I was kind of. I'd been humbled, and, like, all of the. All of the obstinance I had was going away because I thought we were reaching kind of a point of progression. And we went and met with a social worker that was an active member in our ward. And I think for the first time, Billy was really honest about how he felt about being married to me. And he's like, I don't want to be married to her. And I'm not here to. I'm not here to work through this. And I just sat there and I was Relief Society president with the sweet, you know, 40 years as a social worker in LDS Social Services, private practice. Sat in his basement, like, facing him, and he. We had our own independent relationship. And then I'm standing here in front of him with my husband, who's saying, oh, sir, I'm not here for you to tell us some tips to make a date night and prayer. Like, I'm here so that you make sure that she knows that she can't poison the children against me. And I can see the kids whenever I want, and she's not going to. Like, he basically said, I'm only here so that you tell her not to use the children as a tactic. And I was just like. I mean, I was gutted. I was embarrassed, and I was gutted because. But I still didn't believe him. I don't know if that makes sense. I just didn't believe. Like, I understand, like, heightened emotions and being like, I hate you. Get out. You know, but we're married for time and all eternity. It's the new and everlasting covenant. It's the only reason we're on Earth. So we're going to have to work through this. You know, I might have to give up photography, and you might have to pretend to like me. That's kind of what I was thinking was on the table. But it wasn't for him. And here I thought we were going to kind of put a band aid on things and, like, hug and start fresh. And my parents had stayed at my house with the children, and that was not the case. So we came home, and I was just, like. I would just say I was numb. I was just, like, numb and embarrassed. And you know how you kind of start to scramble? Like, how are we gonna. Oh, you know, like, how do I turn this into a fun anecdote? You know, like, it was really huge. And I came home and.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] So you separated as Relief Society president.

Heather Gay [00:17:44] Oh, yeah. I was.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] I remained elite holiday.

Heather Gay [00:17:48] I remained as Relief Society president for a year and a half after.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] What.

Heather Gay [00:17:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] How do you do that with your bishop?

Heather Gay [00:17:55] And I was grateful for it. He asked me, and I wanted to stay.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:17:59] Because it gives you meaningful.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] It keeps you focused, it keeps you busy.

Heather Gay [00:18:02] Yeah. And also, I still didn't believe the separation was real. I did not believe it was ending in divorce. I did not. It didn't. It wasn't three years of litigation or four years of litigation and back and forth. It was like I was a conscientious objector, and I kind of chained myself to the tree of marriage and said. And just, like, put up the blinders. Like, I don't know what you're doing, or whatever, but I'm here. And when you come to your senses, you'll return.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Did you ever, like, beg him to come back? Please come back?

Heather Gay [00:18:33] Never.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:18:34] Never. Never.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] But you still hoped he would. Wanted him.

Dre Nord [00:18:39] No.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] I mean, you. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:18:42] Desire had. Was not on the menu.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Right. Right. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:18:46] There was do or do not.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:18:48] And you and the do, as you stay married.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Come back because.

Heather Gay [00:18:52] And you hope you. Yeah. Come back as you were married.

John Dehlin [00:18:55] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:18:55] You may not like me, but I know you love your kids. I know you love the gospel. I know you love God.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] Simple marriage.

Heather Gay [00:19:02] And I am just. I am the smallest part of that scheme. And it wasn't to him. And so I say now, kind of like piously, like, I'm grateful, but if I. I am grateful. I am grateful that. That I'm grateful that I don't know what I'm grateful for. I'm just. I guess grateful is the wrong word. I'm just for the use of some respect for it. I have some respect that he was just like, no, he didn't.

John Dehlin [00:19:35] Oh, you're grateful that he walked away Because.

Heather Gay [00:19:37] Because, I mean, that's. I don't know what I am. I'm not grateful. I just have respect for someone that is willing to blow up their life for not something different or better. He's not remarried. He's didn't ever cheat on me. He never broke any of the covenants he's made. He never broke the word of wisdom. He never didn't pay tithing. He's never not walked the line. And I say those things because I think I had much more deep, deep conviction about the truthfulness of the gospel and my commitment to it, which would be evident by the fact that I'd be willing to be married under any circumstances. Because to me, that was what being Mormon was. I mean, how many esteemed Mormons do you know that are single? How many general authorities are single?

John Dehlin [00:20:25] Bishops, Relief Society presidents?

Heather Gay [00:20:27] How many? Yeah, name them. How many people on the general board of Relief Society are never married or single or divorced? It is. It is a disservice for us to say that marriage is not the pinnacle of our doctrine, not only our culture, our doctrine. And if I'm not married on this life, what do people say? What is the thing that we say to people that don't get married on Earth?

Dre Nord [00:20:53] That they'll find someone on the other side.

Heather Gay [00:20:55] They'll have to die. It's better to hold to your covenants, be a true and believing Mormon, and then die. And then you'll meet someone that will love you for who you are. And then you can have all these blessings. But be pious and, you know, here on Earth, don't sell your birthright for a bowl of pottage. And that's kind of how I looked at it. Like my birthright was this eternal line, this, you know, covenant, and the pottage was happiness.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] I want to ask you guys both, I think we really need to dig into one issue here, because I. Midlife crises are in divorce are not uniquely Mormon phenomenon. Plenty of people in the world get divorced. The Mormon divorce rate is pretty much the same as the non Mormon divorce rate, as I understand it. And, and, you know, I think the midlife crisis, where marriages often really struggle and sometimes blow up, is it. I think it's a nearly universal phenomenon, if not a Western universal phenomenon. And I get it all the time. But there's. There's this dynamic that happens in Mormonism and probably a lot of other really orthodox religions where you get married super young, your engagements a few months, you start having kids immediately, you have a lot of kids, and you never really get a chance to know. Are you close? Are you connected? Are you soulmates? Are you compatible and emotionally compatible, sexually compatible, psychologically compatible? Like, because, you know, like, like we talked about last time, any marriage, according to Spence W. Kimball or whatever, any, any two people can thrive if they live the gospel. And so you get into this middle age where everybody has this kind of unraveling, where it's like, wow, life. Life wasn't what I thought. I'm not happy. Like, I thought I'd be living the gospel. Our marriage is not good. Margi and I went through this. And, and do we want to stay together? And many divorce and then many stay in these wretched marriages thinking, I have to stay for the gospel. In other words, the gospel is not a plan of happiness. The gospel becomes a plan of misery. And I've got to stay for the kids, which means I'm in a model misery or fake happiness to my children. And it's kind of like a. It's. It's like two awful choices. Blow it all up, become gospel, irrelevant, you know, become a social pariah, or stay in something that makes you want to die as you're faking it. Maybe you have to self medicate in super unhealthy ways just to stay alive and then teach your children to be in a fake, unhealthy, toxic relationship. I mean, those are for many people. And then some people work it out. But I know very, very few people who have stayed in their first marriage and have a super healthy, happy relationship. That's really rare. Like, I would say less than 5%.

Dre Nord [00:24:01] Really.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] That's my, that's been my experience. It's anecdotal. Now, I want you guys to comment on all that. Let's spend a good five, ten minutes on that. Because isn't that significant? Like, staying for the kids is its own thing. Right.

Dre Nord [00:24:13] Feel really strongly about that, actually. And, and I don't know that Heather would agree, but. And I've. I've been married twice, divorced twice. Sucks. But I think it. What you said about, like, what you're modeling for your children, that truly was the deal breaker for me the second time around. And a lot of it is because I read Glennon Doyle's book Untamed, and

John Dehlin [00:24:37] she talks about that she liked this podcast episode. She.

Heather Gay [00:24:40] Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. But she called us her cheetah sisters.

Dre Nord [00:24:44] Heather. I missed that. What did she say in on that?

Heather Gay [00:24:47] But on a post I did, I did a quote of hers where she said, we are all pioneers. And I was just like, she's Mormon. Glennon's Mormon. That's what I used to do. When someone said pioneer said something that was just in line with the gospel. I'd be like, they're Mormon. They don't know it. Let me meet them and have dinner. Then I'll come back like I have as an adult. I was a huge missionary and my neighbors got me got baptized. Like, I was never not a missionary because I loved the gospel.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:25:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] And I don't want to lose, but check out. Check out Glennon Doyle's book Untamed.

Heather Gay [00:25:20] She's a Mormon in hiding.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] It's like Brene Brown. It's like, as big as Brene Brown's books. It's a huge deal. It's all about having a second life of joy and health and healing.

Dre Nord [00:25:29] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] Go ahead.

Dre Nord [00:25:30] But she does. I remember reading the chapter that she talked about her kids and how she realized that her daughter wanted to do the same hairdo as her and that she was like, okay, everything that we're doing, we are teaching our children. And our daughters are wanting to do the same hair as us. They want to. They want to like the same music as us. They want to have the same types of friendships as us, which also means that they want to have the same, you know, romantic or intimate relationships as we do. And so here I've stayed for the kids. But is this what I would really want for my daughter? Because I am teaching them that it is okay to be in a marriage that doesn't have, you know, connection or love or that has boundaries being crossed or whatever. Your story is that, like, is that really what we want to teach our kids? And that for me, in my round two, even though, like, wonderful person, lot of really good things, do I want my kids to have a partnership that is not connected and that models what I believe are unhealthy gender roles? No, I don't want that for them. And yes, it's going to be damaging and hard to have divorced parents. That's how it is. But what is worse, and kind of like what you said, like, it seems like two really bad choices, but that's

John Dehlin [00:26:54] only with the gospel doctrine laid on top of it.

Dre Nord [00:26:56] Sure. But I mean. But even still, I mean, it. It is tough to. For. On kids to go back and forth. I think I'm. And I have divorced parents and as an adult, and that's hard. It's hard for me for this Christmas of, like, who am I gonna go with? My mom or my dad? And I love both. And it is. It's complicated and difficult, but just like, I'm so glad that my dad remarried someone who loves him and who he has an amazing connection with and who does his thing. I'm so glad that he found that and that he's not married to someone that. That he has a toxic relationship with. And I'm happy for my mom that she is who she is and even though they're not together anymore, and that might made it make it complicated for holidays, but I had. I just. I really strongly believe that Kids know when their parents are unhappy. I knew. And it's my job as a mom to be the best version of myself. And if I am spending all of my days numbing myself and forcing myself to live a life that I totally hate, there is no way that they're not going to pick up on that.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] And then you're modeling unhealth.

Dre Nord [00:28:12] Right? Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] You're modeling sadness.

Dre Nord [00:28:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] Right. Heather, what are you thinking?

Heather Gay [00:28:21] Like, I mean, I just disagree with. I mean, I don't. Like, I mean, of course everything she says is Bible truth, but I don't. I. I don't know where this comes from. From me, but I just. I. I think my mom was an incredibly dynamic entrepreneur. I mean, she always had side gigs. She always was an artist. She was always having little, you know, home enterprise and businesses and, you know, always just industrious, you know, that how she just always did. And like, I, as a child,

John Dehlin [00:29:04] was

Heather Gay [00:29:05] absolutely oblivious to her happiness. And I. I'm sure, you know, when I asked her, when I was like, well, sometimes I would cry in the bathtub, you know, and turn the water on so no one could hear me. And, like, as. As an adult, I was like, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that my mom didn't walk around crying, you know what I mean? Or burdening me with the vicissitudes of life, you know, or whatever. Like, I. I think. And when I heard you describing, like, these two options, I still immediately go to the middle option, which is, you know, I get. Maybe I'm a martyr, but there's nobility in martyrdom. To me. There's nobility in these women that, like, birthed babies on the plains, you know, and buried them in. In 6 inches of snow and marched on. And that's who I wanted to be. So bring it on. Bring on the fact that I have to just wake up and, you know, and find the joy, like, that's on me. This is my life. This is the gospel. This is what I signed up for. And I have a roof over my head, and I have food on my. In my fridge, and I have beautiful, healthy children and. And I want for nothing and figure it out, you know, like, it's in every one of us to, like, be kind and be happy. And it's. I feel like. I almost wanna say, like, irrelevant of our circumstances. I felt burdened to figure it out. And that is both empowering but also deeply damaging to a relationship where you're supposed to be codependent. Not codependent. I don't know, you're the doctor, like, not codependent, but symbiotic.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Yeah, well.

Dre Nord [00:30:54] But Heather, like, so just like a C plus marriage where you're just punching the clock, like, maybe that's good enough for you, but that's not good enough for me. And I don't think you would say that that's good enough for your daughters. I don't think you would want that for your daughters. You want.

Heather Gay [00:31:08] Never want my daughters.

Dre Nord [00:31:10] Real connection, support and. And somebody who sees them. And so maybe you were okay being. Staying in a marriage, and maybe you would have stayed for time and all eternity, Heather, Obviously you would have, but. And maybe that's good enough for you. I don't think it's good enough for you. I don't think it's good enough for anyone, but maybe that was good enough for you. I don't think that you would say that that's what you would want for your daughters. I know how you feel about your daughters, 100%. You would never want that for them.

Heather Gay [00:31:40] I would never want that for them, but I wanted to be that martyr that did it for them because that would give them all of the benefits of life in the gospel. And in terms of a foundation of home and whatever. And this is. I'm just like. Those are where my emotions are cognitively. I know that that is messed up, and I know that that has to stem from just the value system that I have been entrenched in. But I also think that, like, I used to have this. I don't want to digress too much, but I used to be passionate about reading obituaries, and I would read, you know, like, they went through all these things and 70 years of marriage and, you know, and I would read the ones where you could tell that there had been a divorce, but they didn't mention it. You know what I mean? All the kind of euphemisms of how we cover up really horrible, painful growing periods of our life. And I was deeply committed to the big rocks in the vase, you know, the marriage. The temple marriage.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] That's a seminary metaphor.

Heather Gay [00:32:57] Yeah. And that's what I was about, you know, the temple marriage, that having children, the, you know, never divorcing the children, you know, being all of these things. You know what I mean? I just. I was really committed to that. And it didn't matter to me what happened under the surface, because that was just a reflection of my own self mastery.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] Yeah, I get it.

Dre Nord [00:33:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] It's the pioneer way. You.

Heather Gay [00:33:25] You push the head down just like my Pioneer ancestors. Now I'm trying to blaze a new trail, but it's hard for me because I've even had the experience of researching my genealogy and reading this and just feeling so proud. And also a lot of shame, you know, like, oh, they were so good. And they did these things that were so hard. I mean, my ancestors, our ancestors, probably, they accepted the gospel in England. They had careers and family and friends, and they sold everything and got on ships and came here and dedicated their lives and came across the plains, took directives, built cities, built towns, and gave 10% of their income to the Lord and 90% of their time to build the kingdom of God on earth and to bring about, you know, the standard of truth, you know, no unhallowed hand. Like, I wanted to be a part of that.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:34:24] And I felt great dignity in being a part of that. And I. That was one of my core values. So being seen, it was part of. I was, you know, trading it all for a greater good and for the big stones in the vase, for the big. The overarching storyline. But then as I started to look at different veins of my ancestry, I would see, like, little sub notes from other people saying, this is actually untrue. They died by suicide, you know, and this. This is untrue. Like, and I would just be like, lots of divorces.

John Dehlin [00:34:59] There were a lot of divorces in the 18 and 1900s. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:35:02] And just people that, like, left. And then I would start to see these aberrations and be like, you go, girl. You know, walked away after, like, a week of marriage and said, oh, hell no. You know, And. But before that, I would see these side notes from people that just. And I'd be like, what a jerk. Like, just let us have our story. Why do you have to write in there? This is untrue. They died by suicide and were miserable in their lives, you know, And I just thought, listen, we've got the family tree and it's beautiful. We don't need you to come in with your little hatchet and break away at it. Like. Like, who cares? Like, just keep. You know, keep the.

Dre Nord [00:35:42] Mm.

Heather Gay [00:35:43] Keep it.

Dre Nord [00:35:44] The picture.

Heather Gay [00:35:45] Keep it up. Yeah. Because there's. There's beauty in it. And I don't think any of us would discount, like, when we see a couple that's been married 70 years or 60 years and they are having their silver anniversary, we know that there have been days when she said, great, move out. You know, great. Take your whore and put her somewhere. You know, Take her to a different country or whatever. You know, like, we know that there. We know that it's not bliss, but we're, we're more evolved now, and we talk about things and I think we're, you know, more attuned to our emotion, emotional needs, but we respect that. We respect longevity in marriage. We respect.

Dre Nord [00:36:25] Totally.

Heather Gay [00:36:26] We respect the 50 year old, 50 golden anniversary. And we don't sit and say, what's been the hardest thing? Or what's the secret? And, you know, what do they say? Forgive each other. Laugh.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:36:38] The truth is, what's the hardest thing? Bearing down? Not giving up and not giving up and not accepting an alternative. But I don't, I don't think that's. No, I'm not saying, like, you should.

Dre Nord [00:36:52] I mean, no, I've had friends say, I could never do what you're doing to your family. Could never do that. And I, I, you know, and of course I feel horrible about it. Of course. If I could make myself feel a different way, I absolutely would. And it has not been without trying. And so I am not noble. I'm not one of those strong people that can just dig in and persevere and bury the baby six inches in snow. I can't.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] Or yourself.

Dre Nord [00:37:23] Yeah, I won't.

Heather Gay [00:37:26] And saying those things, I would never want Dre to do that. So what I put on myself and what I think I'm supposed to do, I would never want her to do that for one second. And I am so clearly aware of the fact that you are one tenth of who you're going to be. And every day that you walk away from what's keeping you in that box and in that. In the zoo. Glennon.

Dre Nord [00:37:57] Glennon, Glennon.

Heather Gay [00:38:00] Heart patron saint. We belong to the church of Glennon Doyle of Latter Day Saints. I know that you. Absolutely. And so I would encourage you, you know. So I guess that's what's so effed up. Is that what I expect of myself. I do not want for my daughters. I do not want it for my best friends. But I somehow was programmed to believe that that is where my needs come in the grand scale of the Robinson, Chipman, Hinchcliffe, McLean line.

Dre Nord [00:38:41] I expect more for you. You know that. And you deserve it. And I think your pioneer ancestors would be freaking proud of you. Honestly. You told me about some of those ancestors that you looked into that were like, badass power women. No, like, go figure. Of course, you descended from the womb.

Heather Gay [00:39:06] Yeah. Like, their blood runs through my veins and, like, in a different way now. And this is a new, like, as trite as it is, my tagline for housewives is just like my pioneer ancestors, I'm blazing a new trail. And I. And that is, you know, as cheesy as people want to make it. Like, I have to look at it that way. I have to look at it as, like, I'm going against what generations have done before me in order to create a better, brighter future for myself and my posterity and specifically for my daughters, because they are badass, beautiful women. And I was hampering them with things that they didn't. That would keep them from. Would keep them safe. I have to be clear to keep it.

Dre Nord [00:39:57] Would.

Heather Gay [00:39:57] It's a very safe routine. You used a word last time we were talking. I can't think of what it was. A planned. It's a planned life. And there is so much security in the plan, you know, in a program. It's the program. And in having routine and expectations and standards and all those things. Like, all of that, I think is totally beautiful and cool. But there's also this crazy thing about just, like, blowing it up. Like, think of what our Elsha and Ashley, our oldest daughters, think of what they see for their futures that they would not have seen had we just toed the line.

Dre Nord [00:40:36] I know. I think about it all the time. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:40:40] Our employees see these two women who love what they do, who are so happy and who literally, they see us as having, like, the world on a string. And we're slowly realizing that we do. Slowly. But when we have those moments where we, like, look at each other, like,

Dre Nord [00:40:56] damn, is this our life?

Heather Gay [00:40:57] Is this what, like, men feel like all the time? This is amazing, you know?

Dre Nord [00:41:03] Yeah. And I think we're learning that it's possible to do that and also be great moms and be committed to our children and creating great lives for them and being committed to ourselves and being the best versions of ourselves and whatever that looks like, whether that's being Mormon or being spiritual or just being self aware, you know?

Heather Gay [00:41:25] Totally. It's. In a way, it's like the best moms we could be. Because if I was cooking just like, solid, delicious, basic oatmeal for my kids, now I'm adding, like, acid heat, salt, fat, you know, like, all these things. And it's like, I'm gonna blow your mind at what is out there. And you may say that's a lot. And I prefer oatmeal and intermittent fasting, you know, but that. But until they've tasted or see that it is on the menu, they can't make those informed Choices. And that is a burden on kids. Absolutely. But God help me, I want them to be burdened with that and not the other way around. You really love us, don't you, John?

John Dehlin [00:42:22] I do, I do. Margi's first. You guys are second and third. Yes.

Heather Gay [00:42:28] I mean, you can. You're like, what are you thinking? I'm so curious.

Living for Now Versus Living for Heaven

John Dehlin [00:42:32] Well, first of all, I love that we're covering this topic. I have three. You know, I have a son and then three other children, and I want them to see possibility. I have a. I have a daughter who's an entrepreneur. I have another child that's getting a Ph.D. in developmental psychology. I have another daughter that wants to go to med school. And these are just not. If they had been raised orthodox Mormons, they. They may have thought that theoretically this is possible, but that's not the way. You know, you. I watch Mandalorian. This is not the way. This is the way. You know what I mean?

Heather Gay [00:43:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] That's not the Mormon way. So I'm super inspired that you guys are talking about this and modeling it, because we've done our women in society, not just in Mormonism, but in society, we've done our women a huge disservice by limiting their potential and what. How they see their own potential and then what they're actually able to accomplish. And that's my. Margi's a stay at home mom and she's loved it and she's been fantastic at it. And that's not to put that down. It's just to say, let's lift everything else up.

Dre Nord [00:43:39] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] And let's let women have whatever is of the other of the heart's content. So I'm so grateful for the past 10, 15 minutes and for the whole series. And I want to say two quick things, if that's okay. Yeah. So it's not as simple as live in an awful, terrible marriage or destroy and blow up your family. The truth is, there is. There is. And I'm only saying this because I spent six years getting a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. I counsel couples weekly, and I've been counseling thousands of couples for the past 20 years. And the truth is that if you are compatible, if there's a base level of faith, physical and emotional and psychological compatibility where you share the right values, and then you can heal from all your childhood and teenage traumas and adult traumas, and you have to see a therapist or a coach to heal. And Mario had to do it, Margi had to do it. And then if you can learn the basics of healthy emotional intimacy, then you can do it. And I believe every marriage is worth fighting for and giving it your all. So I just want to be clear. There is that middle ground. If you're in a marriage that sucks, don't give up on it. If you can develop that compatibility, if you can heal from your individual traumas, if you're both willing to do that work, and then you're. You can learn the basics of healthy emotional intimacy, which nobody knows, not just in Mormonism, but in society. If you can learn those things, you can turn it around. Margi and I in 2012 were totally about to split, and we thought the kids would be better. We fought through it, we did our healing, we saw, sought help, and now we just. We just love our lives together. So, yes, it's. It's not that it can't happen, but you gotta do that work. And unfortunately, Mormonism does not teach people how to have a healthy, thriving marriage. Mormonism teaches people how to be good Mormons. And if you're both loving being good Mormons, or if you just have that endurance, or if you're willing to sacrifice yourself to the point of misery and. Or death, maybe you can stick it out and survive. But there's a lot of depressed Mormon women, There's a lot of addicted Mormon women and men to prescription drugs and to other. To other addictions. There's a lot of darkness within Mormon marriages and Mormon adulthood. Addictions, bad behaviors, hatred, loathing. And that's not good for anybody. And that takes me to the other thing I was thinking, which is if the Mormon church is true, if Joseph Smith really talked to God, if, if God is Elohim as the Mormons teach, and if God has his plural wives as the Mormons teach, and if, and if, you know, only Mormon marriages count in the celestial kingdom, and if our destiny is. Is to become gods and goddesses in heaven. Yeah, stick it out. Suck it up. And. And if you have to live in a toxic, awful, terrible marriage until you just die, it's kind of like what we tell our gay brothers and sisters, yeah, this life is going to suck for you. You're never going to know love, you're never going to know fulfillment, but that's what the next life's for. So this life is to be miserable and suck it up and to endure because the next life is great. If that narrative is true, then yeah, Heather, your way is the way. But if Joseph Smith was a charlatan, if he just made that stuff up, if the Book of Mormon was just fiction. And if that temple marriage is no different than any other marriage, and if that priesthood authority is empty, then people are sacrificing the only time that they're guaranteed to have, which is the time of this life. They're giving up what's most precious for something that's fake and that something that was made up by a New York country yokel. And so it better be true. If people are going to give what they. What's for sure, which is their time on this life, it better be true, right? And if it's not true, then it's one of the biggest. And Gordon, I'm quoting Gordon McHinkley now. It's one. If the Mormon Church isn't true and it's one of the biggest frauds ever perpetrated on mankind. That was Gordon B. Hinckley, not me. Because then people are giving decades and entire lives to something that was false and a fraud. And they chose misery in the now for nothing later, right? For nothing later. And that is. And so that's, you know, maybe that's a decent segue into what comes after the separation. Do you have thoughts and reactions to that?

Dre Nord [00:48:23] I just wanted to comment. I've actually thought about that concept of, like, living for heaven a lot ever since my brother died. Because, like, that was kind of my light bulb of waking me up and saying, okay, I don't know what is. I don't know what happens after this. I hope there's something. I don't. I kind of don't think there is. But, like, maybe, and hopefully there is. But do I really want to live my life based on what's going to happen next? And I feel like as a church member, that's how I did live my life. Every decision that I made was based on getting to the celestial kingdom. And I didn't realize that, like, I was doing that still even after leaving the church. It wasn't to live in the celestial kingdom, but it was like, for what comes next. Okay, well, if I. If I can just get through this, this hard portion of life, it's gonna be better later. Okay, well, if I can just do this now, then I'll get here later. And I think I kind of realized, you know what, like, I could get in a car accident today and everything would be gone. You know, eternal dial tone, who knows? But do I really want to live my life every day based on what's gonna happen next? And of course, we have to, like, be responsible and think and plan for the future, but I think it's really ingrained in us to do make decisions not based on if that's the best thing for us or if that's what's going to make us happy, if that's what's going to fulfill us or put us in touch with our best selves. But like, I'll have to do this now because of heaven. And I think that a lot of people do that. And I was still doing it and thinking, okay, well I'm, I'm going to do this for this thing later. But guess what? All I have is right now. And so like, if I cannot wake up and feel joy, that's a problem. And so what can I do right now that is appropriate, that is good? It's not like I want to just wake up and you know, do cocaine and go to, you know, a certain hell. Yeah, that might sound fun, but like, what can I actually do to feel joy in my life right. Right now? Because that's all we have control of is what is happening.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] It's all, you know for sure that you have.

Dre Nord [00:50:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] So you don't know that you have anything after this.

Dre Nord [00:50:47] Right.

Heather Gay [00:50:47] And you know, and it's all you

John Dehlin [00:50:49] know for sure is that you have this life now.

Heather Gay [00:50:51] Yes, I know for sure. And I think that like, even, even outside of the promises of Mormonism, which, you know, I hear you saying all that, but I'm just like, well, it has to be true because it can't. If it was a fraud, it wouldn't be working. You know, that's like where I think, this is how I think when I hear you say these, you guys say these things like Andrews say, that's made up. And I'll be like, you are clouded by Satan.

Dre Nord [00:51:17] You know, like, Satan's got me.

Heather Gay [00:51:21] But also on just a human level, we do a lot of things as moms with our babies because it gets better and we're building lives and that's noble. Yeah, sure, we put up with a lot of bullshit in marriage because we want that golden anniversary. We wanna gather our children around, we wanna be gray haired and wrinkled skin and look around and be like, well, we did it, you know, and that's on earth. But we don't. You know what I mean? So it's like it's not just eternal glory, it's just kind of like we have set up these parameters of what it means to be a successful human. And we. And it's pretty messed up and it's mostly based on sacrifice and conforming and at the same time that we have this for Middle America or, you know, the universe of normal people. We esteem those that just blow it up, you know, that.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] Glennon Doyle.

Heather Gay [00:52:20] Glennon Doyle, Brene Brown.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] They've both been divorced. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:52:24] Oprah.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Oprah, you know, never got married, never had kids.

Heather Gay [00:52:28] Just defied all of these things. And we esteem the trailblazers that we don't risk or want to be because the promises are not on a Hallmark greeting card. Congratulations on being an independent, successful entrepreneur, never marrying and never having children because you have changed the face of the earth. Go into a drugstore and find that greeting card. Go into a drugstore for a Glennon Doyle greeting card that says, you know, you're a lesbian. You're a lesbian, but you lose your husband. Yeah. And suffered through infidelity and marriage and get probably more troll DMs, you know, from women, from latent lesbians.

Dre Nord [00:53:15] Well, she was a Christian blogger, so, I mean, she had a ton of backlash.

Heather Gay [00:53:19] She got that card. Where is that card that says, way to go, you know, like, congratulations on telling your children that they can wear short shorts and tank tops and it doesn't reflect their character or their promiscuity worth.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] Their worth. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:53:33] Or their lack of respect for themselves or their oppression of men. Think about sex, boys. Think about sex. You know what I mean? Like, just find the. Find those greeting cards in the world. You know, find those accolades from society because we esteem it and we are all drawn to it.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] You know what? I just had an idea.

Heather Gay [00:53:56] What?

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Gay and Dre's greeting cards. You guys need to have a line

Heather Gay [00:54:01] of Oprah say those things. Seriously, that's an opportunity.

Dre Nord [00:54:05] Congratulations for realizing that.

Heather Gay [00:54:06] So we have two customers, Glenn and Doyle and Oprah, and the rest of us are just like Brene Brown.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Those are three good customers.

Heather Gay [00:54:13] Because if I had come across that greeting card, never married, never had children, longtime partner. You know, think of the things that Oprah went through in her youth, struggling even as a woman of color in the networks and, like, everything. And, you know, and just her personal things that she's discussed, weight and society and all these things. If I read that card, I'd be like, woo, this is a doozy. You know, I wouldn't want to receive that card because that's a whole lot of hard.

Dre Nord [00:54:45] Right.

Heather Gay [00:54:47] I want the card that says, happy Golden Anniversary. I look at you, too, and I think, this is what love is.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] But okay, but this is. This is why it's messed up. And thank you for Margi's. Like, John, you really. You're talking a lot in These interviews with Heather and Dre, I'm like, yeah, they're like conversations. This is like.

Dre Nord [00:55:03] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] Like, you know, sometimes I just let people roll and tell their stories, but sometimes I want to get into the conversation. But let me. Let me just say what's messed up about this. Whoever makes those greeting cards, whoever created the Mormon ideal, Right? What. Why we need to not pay attention to that anymore is because there's something bigger. There's something more significant here. And there's. There's a lie that we've all been told, which is that all marriages should last 80 years and that. And that divorce is a failure. Those are two lies, harmful, damaging lies we've been told. And this is someone who's been married 26 years, almost 27. I want to go to 80, okay? But I didn't want to 10 years ago. And if I had been in that marriage, if that marriage had continued, I think it would have been good for both of us to end it. And so here's what I'm. Here's. All I'm saying is that I've got this dear friend named. I'm going to. He's already spoken about this publicly, so I'm going to talk about it. So I've got this dear friend named Brandon Chucketts, okay? And Brandon went to high school with my daughter Maya. They were in show choir together. I think everyone but Brandon knew he was gay, you know, his whole life. But super righteous Mormon goes on a mission, marries his high school sweetheart, Addie, have a son together. And then Brandon just was promised and promised and promised that, you know, his gayness would go away as a Mormon if he got married and served his mission and was faithful. And it didn't. And I don't want to tell their story, but it got really, really bad for both of them. And they're both awesome, amazing, talented, successful, good people who love each other, who are best friends, right? But it would not have been healthy for either of them to keep that marriage going. Okay? My favorite post ever on Facebook is once they decided that they needed to separate, once they decided that they shouldn't hang on to this marriage, even though they loved each other and were best friends, do you know what they did? They had a breaking up moon or a divorce moon. So instead of a honeymoon where you get married and you go off and have a celebration, they went off to Vegas or wherever they went, and they had a weekend together as best friends who love each other that were celebrating the end of their relationship because it was not going to be good for them or the child to continue. But instead of hating each other and destroying each other with lawyers and seeing their time together as this huge failure, they celebrated it and they loved each other and embraced each other and connected about it and said, the time that we had was beautiful and we are successes for the time we had together and we're going to part as close to besties as we can and then we're going to love each other and co parent this beautiful child together and then go on and find the love and the joy that we should have. And that's the destructive lie that we were told, is that every marriage needs to be everlasting. Some should, but some shouldn't. And that every mare, every divorce is a failure. That's a lie. What if you had ten great years together or what if you had five great years together? Or what if you just created good kids together or what if you had a miserable time but you give it your best shot and it was a hero's journey just to not die and not kill each other. Why don't we celebrate all that? Why don't we celebrate divorces as like, look at the great things you did while you were together. And I'm sorry you got me on

Heather Gay [00:58:51] a roll there, but no, I feel passionate about that. I mean, and I don't. I mean, Gwyneth Paltrow, like the conscious uncoupling, she got so much flack. But I, it was such a non charged way to say evolution, you know, and a lot of people were commenting saying like, Heather, you're like graduating from this childlike state of Mormonism to, you know, higher education of Mormonism and they're spinning like my faith crisis as a transition. But I also think like, we look at a job change as a brave move. We look at, you know, breaking up with a toxic boyfriend and finding a different boyfriend. We look at all of our little like baby steps toward who we become as evolution. But we look at divorce as a step backward and as a failure. And it is. I want to be so deeply grateful for the experience of marriage and sex and having children. And I really look at my girls and like a lot of the best things about them are 100% their dad, 100%. And I know that consciously and I know that emotionally and I want them to be fiercely proud of that. And also 50% of what makes them forces to be reckoned with comes from me, you know, and I want to celebrate that and I want it to be beautiful and cool. But we don't know how to say it. We don't know how to. I don't know how to present myself without the scarlet letter of divorce on my chest. And it's. And I want. I want to be a trailblazer. Insane.

Dre Nord [01:00:34] Like.

Heather Gay [01:00:35] Yeah, let's redefine it.

Dre Nord [01:00:38] Yeah. Good for them for celebrating that we had wonderful time together. This is not the right thing, but we're gonna move forward and in love. And it is. It's the conscious uncoupling I love and

John Dehlin [01:00:51] not looking back as having failed as a failure.

Heather Gay [01:00:54] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] You look back as having a journey, a chapter together.

Dre Nord [01:00:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] Right.

Dre Nord [01:00:57] Well. And it's interesting that you said the word evolution, because I have, you know, obviously in the last few years, have had therapy once a week with my therapist trying to fix myself. And I remember sitting in his office sobbing and saying, and I've changed. This is the problem, is that I am. I'm different now than I was 10 years ago when I got married. I am the problem. I have changed. And he said, well, I certainly hope you have. I hope you're not the same person that you were 10 years ago, because the whole point of being a human is to grow and evolve. And so I'm sorry that you evolved into something that maybe isn't going to work in your marriage anymore. But do not apologize to me for evolving and changing and growing, because that is. The point is we. Hopefully, we are all evolving and we have to stop looking at it like a failure and thinking it's an evolution. This. And I. I believe that with my second marriage, too. Like, our relationship has changed. He's still gonna be in my life. We're still gonna raise children together. We are still gonna love and respect each other. It's just evolved into a different type of relationship because he deserves to be happy.

Heather Gay [01:02:12] And. Yeah, you've become the person he doesn't wanna be married to. And you've. And you know what I mean? Does that make sense? Like, he still wants to be married to you, but, like, you've changed and he knows what he wants and needs and, you know, what you want and need, and they're different. So we wouldn't fault someone for saying, I don't want Indian food tonight, which you should always want Indian food. But I want.

Dre Nord [01:02:33] I'm.

Heather Gay [01:02:34] You know, I'm gonna start interviewing or intermittent fasting.

Dre Nord [01:02:38] Thanks a lot, John.

Heather Gay [01:02:39] We're cutting out dairy. What else did John cut out? Cheese.

Dre Nord [01:02:42] I don't know. No sugar.

Heather Gay [01:02:43] No sugar and cheese. I mean.

Dre Nord [01:02:44] And do you have joy, John? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] We kept feeling interviewing you two and my family are my joy.

Heather Gay [01:02:52] Yeah, I think that it's refreshing and I think that I just, I commiserate so much with people that are struggling with their sexual identity. You're not even struggling or just concealing it because I feel like I would have to suppress and eat wrong word. I would have to swallow a lot of my natural proclivities, my natural instincts in order to be a good Mormon. And I think that that is kind of what we sell as Mormonism.

Dre Nord [01:03:27] You know, natural man is an enemy.

Heather Gay [01:03:29] Yeah, it's a refiner's fire, man. That was my mission scripture. I wanted to be put through the refiner's fire. I wanted to become pure and mope and malleable. And I was like, I know who I. Who I am and who I can be. Like, I really just felt this strength. But I want to see what happens when I completely surrender and who I can become in the hands of God. And that was just like a young Mormon ideal, you know, Like I just. And there was also that, you know, it's kind of romantic concept, you know, like I'm just going to surrendered to Jesus, you know, Like I just felt like if I really did this and was dutiful and I realized midway through my mission. It wasn't even midway, you guys, it was like I was in Marseille for five months and it was probably two and a half, three months in and the reality of being a missionary clicked in, you know, and the reality of what it was.

Dre Nord [01:04:34] And.

Heather Gay [01:04:35] And I remember waking up at like 6am and putting my feet on this tile floor in my Marseille apartment. I don't know why this image is burned in my memory, but I remember looking at my feet and feeling kind of the dread of the day and the repetitiveness of it, I'm going to say the hollowness, the conflict with. I lived. It was a unique situation where there were six missionaries in one apartment. I had just been assigned to be a trainer. I'd only been there seven or eight weeks, you know, I barely spoke the language. And they took me from being a. We called them Le Bleu, like the greenies, to being a trainer. And again, that didn't surprise me because I kind of. This is who I was, you know what I mean? When I went, when you put me in a room, I'm going to float to the top or whatever. So I was prepared for it and I was inspired by it. But I just remember thinking, wow, like this is where you dig deep. This is not. I'm not floating on the MTC energy or the spirit of God or my testimony anymore. This is just, I'm putting my feet on this cold ceramic floor at 6am and I looked down at my feet and I thought, I just need to do this like 179 more days, you know. You know, like I remember the number, but it was like for another year basically. And that reality of it like settled in. But I remember just like thinking, okay, so I don't have, it's duty over desire. Like I don't have the desire to, you know, just give it my all anymore. Like that the euphoria's worn off, the day to day is settled in and now I don't have the desire, but I have the duty. And, and I think that that is what made me like committed to my marriage. And so when my marriage ended, I really didn't know where duty and desire fell because I couldn't do. You had neither anymore. I had no desire to, you know, be anything. I had zero emotion. I was dead inside. So I had no desire. But I also didn't know what my duty was other than to be a phenomenal or the best mother I could be to my children. Phenomenal would be a stretch, but the best mother I could be to my children. And I was also overwhelmed when we first separated with the world that was awaiting me because I was totally still Relief Society president, still toeing the line, so to speak. But I was hurting and reeling and had no resources. So I started to like branch out and make friends that were, you know, single women. And one of my dearest friends moved into the ward and everyone said, oh, our friend's moving in the ward. She's separating from her husband. She's starting to leave the church. We need you to swoop in, swoop in and you know, and make sure she doesn't leave. And which is my specialty. Like I could. Oh yeah, I was a missionary. My neighbor two doors down, totally zero interest in the gospel, joined the church, got baptized. I spoke at their baptism with Bell's palsy, like facial paralysis, still gave the dedicatory prayer, you know, like I was like a pioneer. Like that was what my identity and like I loved being that person. I loved being the like, you know, person that could just show up. So I. And I was always a missionary and I loved the gospel and I loved it and I wanted people to know why I'm so happy and successful. And I loved being a missionary and I loved sharing the gospel with people.

Leaving Behind Old Rules and Embracing Change

Dre Nord [01:08:28] And you also like a challenge May I point out.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] Yes.

Dre Nord [01:08:31] I love a challenge that would definitely, I think, you know, get your blood flowing a little bit, to be like, okay, there's this person that's in a similar situation as me, but. But she's leaving, which is the worst. So, like, let me fix this. Let me rescue, and let me take on this challenge.

Heather Gay [01:08:48] Yeah. And let me show her that you can be a cool Mormon. You don't have to just be, like, a weird Mormon. You can be sexy and you can be funny and you can be renegade, and you can be cool, and you can still get to heaven. Like, that was my brand. And she came to church, which she didn't wanna do, and, like, she met with me, and, like, she was my divorce shaman. She was my guru, and she was wild, and she was a gift to me, and I.

John Dehlin [01:09:18] Wild, meaning not living standards.

Heather Gay [01:09:20] Wild is just like, I love sex. I love men. I am so over being Mormon. I have no shame. I have no guilt. I have no fear.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] But she was still going to church.

Heather Gay [01:09:30] No, she came to church to meet me because, like, all of our friends had said, you have to meet Heather. And that was the only way we were gonna meet. And then once we met and got each other's numbers, she lived across the street from me.

Dre Nord [01:09:40] Me.

Heather Gay [01:09:40] Like, across. You know, just kiddie corner neighborhood so we could walk to each other's homes.

John Dehlin [01:09:46] So my Mormon. Okay, my Mormon brain is saying, well, this sounds like a bad influence. Like, somebody that taught you evil. You know what I'm saying? That's what my Mormon brain's saying.

Heather Gay [01:09:55] And I knew that, but, like, she was also. Our children were in the same grade, and, like, I. She saved my life.

John Dehlin [01:10:04] But how do you go from being Relief Society president to starting to not toe the line? And how do you.

Heather Gay [01:10:09] It's a total debauchery. It's.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] How did that save your life? How did debauchery. They say wickedness never was happiness. How did wickedness become happiness for you? And I'm not saying you're wicked. I'm using.

Heather Gay [01:10:20] No, no, I'm.

Dre Nord [01:10:21] Are you happy? No.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] Show them your shirt. Show them your shirt.

Dre Nord [01:10:25] Sinners, sinners, sinners.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] How did wickedness become happiness for you? And I say wickedness in quotes.

Heather Gay [01:10:32] Well, you know, so I always say I was. I had. I was dead inside. I had no joy. But, like, I had a lot of fun. Okay? A lot of fun. And you could say a lot of happiness. Like, I'm always fun. I think I'm always laughing. I'm always having a good time. You know, but like, I would never say I'm like Robin Williams, you know, but like, there's darkness, there's shadow to everything.

Dre Nord [01:10:51] Well, and there is a difference between glee and joy. Yeah. You know, like, we can all have experienced those gleeful moments. It doesn't mean that there's.

Heather Gay [01:11:00] Yeah, you can.

Dre Nord [01:11:00] Meaning and depth to it.

Heather Gay [01:11:02] You can get euphoria. You can get euphoria chemically, you can get euphoria sexually. You can have euphoria and not have abiding happiness or joy. And I understood the difference between those two because I was a true believing Mormon and in many ways am a true believing Mormon. So I just loved having this wild friend that I could just sit back and be like. And I would see her go out and do things and drink and have zero repercussions. Zero. Just fabulous stories to tell. And I wanted to self medicate and I wanted to fall into that world where I wasn't a mom, I wasn't a divorce or separated, I wasn't a fallen angel. You know, I wasn't letting down generations of pioneers that were in heaven. Like, what is she doing? You know, like I had that clash of the titans view of my life, like Zeus and, you know, they're putting the little clay figurines in certain positions to like flick them over and see what happens. And I was like, I'm gonna bounce back up like a weeble Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down. And I'm going to have my identity be as someone that never faltered. And that was not who I was acclimated to be. And that was not gonna. That was. I needed someone to kind of show me the way. And so I.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] Does that mean you started drinking with her?

Heather Gay [01:12:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:28] You tried alcohol?

Heather Gay [01:12:29] Totally. I'd had alcohol before, but like, I started drinking with her, I started going out with her. I started like just being absolutely reckless and wild and coming home and being Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] What do you mean reckless?

Heather Gay [01:12:46] I mean, well, what are you, like staying out late?

Dre Nord [01:12:49] I mean, drink?

John Dehlin [01:12:50] I don't know.

Heather Gay [01:12:50] I had a nanny and I would go out and like go to bars.

John Dehlin [01:12:55] Clubs.

Heather Gay [01:12:56] Yeah, clubs, actually. Clubs? It's like so long ago, but like clubs. And she'd have people over and we started like anywhere I went, we would meet men. I wasn't. I didn't have any. Like, I hadn't really branched out that way yet, but I had to have someone that was plunging the needle on the other end to see that, like, my flesh wouldn't melt off of my face and. And that she was. And she was a mom. She had kids and she was a mom. And I would just be like, oh, I'm just like more into like foreplay. And she'd be like, oh, I'm all about penetration. And I'm just like, ah, you know,

Dre Nord [01:13:31] like your flesh does fall off.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] And then I'm just like, how do you drink alcohol? As a believing Mormon, I don't understand that. I have a hard time drinking it. As a ex Mormon, how did you go from Relief Society president to drinking alcohol and going partying to clubs?

Heather Gay [01:13:48] Pure, pure, pure pain and self medication. I was in. I was not even conscious of who I was in any way. And I was compartmentalizing, but I was in pain. It's the same way that you would take a Xanax if you're having a panic attack, if you would, you know, take heart medication if you were having palpitations. I had no resource. I was in therapy, but I was. And I was also dead inside. So it's very easy to do anything when you're dead inside.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] What about guilt? What about guilt? Mormon guilt and shame.

Heather Gay [01:14:22] My pain superseded all of that.

Dre Nord [01:14:25] So it felt better to feel numb and to have a little.

Heather Gay [01:14:30] Have the repercussions and to feel like, well, shit, man, you know, the dream is gone. And you know, this is as a couple years in, like, the dream is gone and I. I'm gonna eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die. And like, those promises were not made true. And I had no idea, no desire to be like a good.

Dre Nord [01:14:54] Really.

Heather Gay [01:14:55] The only reason I'd never not drank or not slept around was not because I didn't want to. I didn't have the opportunity and I didn't want to corrupt my chances of having the prize, you know, if you know what the prize is, you follow the rules. And the prize was a temple marriage and a great spouse. And I had gotten that. It had not worked out. And so now I was just.

Dre Nord [01:15:17] Well, it's gone anyway.

Heather Gay [01:15:18] Yeah. And like, now there's no contest, you know, the rules are gone. And I was in so much pain that I couldn't see the forest through the trees at all.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] So did you just shut off that believing part of you, that guilt, shame part of you? Did it just recede?

Heather Gay [01:15:34] I just compartmentalized and I was still a true believing Mormon with my children.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] You still show up on Sunday? Absolutely.

Heather Gay [01:15:40] I've never not gone to church. Church until Covid.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] So you would go to church and act like everything was normal?

Heather Gay [01:15:45] Take the sacrament? Not even Flinch.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] And you wouldn't feel guilt taking the sacrament knowing you were breaking the word of wisdom, for example.

Heather Gay [01:15:52] I was conscious of it. I was conscious of it, but I was reverting back to my cool Mormonism, which was the culture says no unclean hand should partake of the sacrament. And I'm supposed to go talk to these older men about, like, Bishop. Yeah, the bishop. Yeah. To confess and say that, like, I had a shot, a fireball. You know what I mean? But it was not. It was just like. It just seemed like you all don't know what I'm going through. And I could be pounding oxycodone to get through. And this is just.

Dre Nord [01:16:27] I'm doing this in a suggestion, justification,

Heather Gay [01:16:29] opportunity kind of met justification and met the tumult. I was in. I was in a washing machine. And so I wasn't seeing up or down or right or wrong. I was just, like, surviving. I was surviving. And I had three little children that I loved. And I was showing up. I was in charge of the yearbook. I was, you know, on the pta.

Dre Nord [01:16:52] I was the queen of the moms.

Heather Gay [01:16:53] I was the. Meet the Master's art teacher. I was still, I think, at that point, I was serving in young women's, you know, like, just like. But I was going to church. And I was also trying to prove that I was the one that was better than Billy. You know, I was.

Dre Nord [01:17:10] I.

Heather Gay [01:17:11] He. Because everyone's like, why'd you get divorced? Someone's fault. You know, it's never both of your fault. It's never an evolution. It's never conscious, uncomfortably. It's. Was there a porn addiction?

Dre Nord [01:17:20] No.

Heather Gay [01:17:21] Was there infidelity? No. Was there abuse? No, he didn't.

Dre Nord [01:17:26] Why couldn't you just stick it out? Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:17:27] Because he wasn't willing to. To feign love and commitment. And I was. That's the truth of it. He was not willing to sell his birthright for a bowl of pottage in terms of, like, you flip the script. And I was. I was saying I don't need happiness. I don't need to be seen. I don't need to be heard. I don't need to have fulfillment in my marriage. But I definitely need the auspice of an eternal marriage. And I need a husband that makes money and shows up and takes me to Hawaii and takes me to St. George. And, you know, like, I need all of that in order to create the family that I esteem, that I need to have.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] Yeah. So in some ways, you know, shout out to Billy for choosing Joy Right. Like, it was good for both of you probably. Maybe. I don't know. We'll see.

Heather Gay [01:18:11] But there's a part of me that believes that.

John Dehlin [01:18:12] Yeah. How did this woman save your life? You said she saved your life.

Heather Gay [01:18:16] Were you being an option? And because she brought. She brought into my life the people that have changed my life, which were my very gay best friends. So she. We were at. I was at her house and she was having a party, and this was my only social interaction outside of school. And every one of my friends were all. This is the only single friend I had. The only. I had a divorced friend that lived with her parents who was, you know, saved my life in other ways because there was something. But she was also just toeing the line for her children. You know, she wasn't out dating. She wasn't trying to, like, evolved. She was just trying to like, keep the. I really want to say this. Like, keep the damage to a minimum.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] Keep the wheels on the wagon.

Heather Gay [01:18:59] Keep the wheels in the wagon. Like, keep our children as sheltered and as safe and as comfortable and, you know, steady as possible. And I felt that too. But I could. I had an opportunity to go out and like, have this whole world of divorced Mormons or single Mormons or just wild Mormons. And I loved them. I loved them. And I was at her house, but I was still very, very much. It was few and far between that. I went out and it was always, you know, celebratory or just like, I felt. I earned it. I'm in so much pain. I'm in. You know, and I couldn't even. I had no self awareness. I was literally in a washing machine. Like, I'd come up for air and then go back in, you know, and that's how I was leading my life. And I met this gay man, came up to me and just. We started talking and we hit it off and I don't know why, but it just got deep really quickly. And it was the first time we met. But he. Within minutes, he and his boyfriend said to me, like, I am. We're gay. We love the church, we're returned missionaries. And I very much have a testimony of the gospel. And I am very much an active gay man. And so you can imagine what that possibilities that opened up for me. And I wanted to just weep, you know, and like hug them and be like, I'm with you. Like, I'm. I believe all of this. And it's. But it can't be true for me. Just like it couldn't be true for Them like, I don't want a life of celibacy. I don't want a life of duty. I don't want a life where I suppress anything and everything in order to get to heaven. And I don't want that for you. And I could see it clearly for them. Clearly. But I couldn't give myself that same permission. Just like I could see it clearly for my own children, clearly for Dre, but I couldn't give myself that same permission. And they said to me, you do not have to pick. And I remember what they were wearing. I remember I was standing because it was like the. It was probably like the moment that someone knows the gospel is true or someone falls in love because they said, we are gay men with testimonies of the gospel and actively gay, which can't work. Can't work according to doctrine, not the culture, but the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And you don't have to choose. You do not have to choose. And I had never really allowed myself that option. I had just. And I just said, because I don't. I want to go to church every Sunday. I want to go. I know that I don't have to go. I could pull the covers over my head, not dress my three beautiful babies and tow them in and get them, you know, not teach class. I want to be there. It is as fundamental to my identity as anything. But I also am divorced. So now what do I do? And I also knew that I did not want to get back in to a different marriage with. And I. And I esteemed a lot of the things that came with Mormonism. Like I didn't want to raise someone else's kids. It was hard enough for me to raise my own. And they're my flesh and blood. You know what I mean? And I did not want to wipe another man's woman's child's butt. And I'm. That is. Makes me sound like a horrible human. I would wipe your kids butts for a limited time, but then I'd hire someone else to do it.

Dre Nord [01:22:30] I know you would.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:22:31] Because the menial tasks of motherhood were noble when it was my family, but I didn't want to just do it to have a family. And I didn't understand. I was so committed to the doctrine of eternal marriage that I didn't understand how it would work. Like what? Like a temple divorce. And then who do my kids go with? And how does that work? And where's the eternal round? And I'm still sealed to my Ex husband. And that covenant will. My understanding of the doctrine is that covenant will not be broken unless there's another righteous priesthood holder that can break that covenant and then take upon me the burden of getting me in through the veil to heaven. And that's accurate, right? For the doctrine of the church?

Dre Nord [01:23:16] That's what I understand. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:23:17] As far as I understand it, there is a man that must part the veil and bring me through. And if it's not my spouse, who by the way, forgot my new name like a month into our marriage, if it was not gonna be him, I wasn't ready to get back into that dynamic with children that weren't born of that union. And that is, I'm not saying judging anyone that does it. I esteem and love that they are capable of it. And I know that they have wonderful lives. But I was so entrenched in this concept of eternal family and us what was sealed on earth, being sealed in heaven, that it just seemed like, okay, yeah, now we're going through some bullshit, but like, it's gonna all work out in the end. And I didn't understand how, but I just didn't want to. I didn't want to be celibate and find a Mormon companion and get a temple divorce and be sealed to him in the temple and then have my children sealed to him. That was never gonna happen. Billy was never not gonna be Mormon. Billy was never going to forego our family. And so why would I create that? I didn't wanna create it for my kids. They were weird. When I had a play date or a friend dropped by, it changed who they were. And so I was intuitively aware of that. And I didn't wanna like have, here's your new brothers and sisters. And also I'm an all in person. When I'm in love with a man, I change. I change so that I can just love them. And I just, I'm all in. And I thought I didn't trust myself to fall in love with someone and then like, if my daughters, you know, were irritated with his children, I would have been like, stop it right now. You know what I mean?

Dre Nord [01:25:00] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:25:01] Like you swallow it. Because that's what we do. We swallow it so that everyone else can feel comfortable and happy. And I knew my proclivity to do that. And I did not want to create that environment for my children because I did not trust myself. So when these beautiful actively gay men said to me, you don't have to choose and you can be both, I wept. I think I cried and we were at a party and they became my very, very, very, very best friends. And they just swooped in where my other friend had been kind of like showing me, you know, what she was doing. But she, she had, she was dating and I was not dating. That was like not my vibe, you know, that was too much. Like I could partake or drink or self medicate, but I just wasn't ready to, like, I didn't want that. I didn't want to even scratch the surface of that, you know what I mean? Like, you don't peek under the covers because you don't want to know what's going on. And so they became my very best friends. And I was able to, for the first time in my life, be every debaucherous, funny, loud, sarcastic, horrible part of myself and also quote scripture and be pious and self righteous and, you know, dogmatic about my beliefs. And they allowed me to be that. And I had never felt such acceptance and love that I did. And also in their community because they introduced me to all their friends. And I just, I started to see the doctrines started to crumble around that for me a little bit because I knew that the doctrine of the church clearly stated that active homosexual men and women had no place in the plan of happiness or in the kingdom of God unless they chose celibacy and a belief that who they were was wrong. And when they got to heaven, God would make it right, meaning he would make their sexual proclivities be gender based.

LGBT Experience Within the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [01:26:53] He would degay ify them, he would

Heather Gay [01:26:54] de gay ify them and have it be a man and a woman. And that their sexual prowess and sexual identity was contingent on their gender and who they were allowed to love. And these. I had always had gay friends, you know, just like, you know, of course, like, oh yes, I love everyone, but, you know, never someone so intimate where, like, these were the people I wanted to be in heaven with. These were the people that understood me on a level that. And I say these like, I'm. But, you know, my gays, you know, like my boys, like, and I have never felt more loved, accepted or myself. And I could be as loud and obtrusive and lack of feminine or, you know, I could be anything I wanted to be. And we genuinely loved each other. And they were my very, very, very best friends. And they kind of came in and took over every deficit I had for socialization, for social activity, for camaraderie, for love, for acceptance. And they became like wonderful friends to my children, wonderful examples of men and A masculine presence in our home and in our lives. And then, and it became my lifeline. And so if I had not had my friend that came to church and met me, I would not have met them. And they were for sure the most fundamental influence on my life outside of my family. And I loved them. And how could I love them and profess to believe the gospel? Because I certainly didn't want. What was prescribed to them was prescribed to me. You can be who you are. We love and accept you who you are. You can come to church, you can take the sacrament, you can have a calling, but you cannot act on your sexual desires and you cannot proclaim anything other than allegiance to the gospel or we will not allow you those things. And I wanted them to have sex. I wanted me to have sex. I wanted, you know what I mean? It was just like I would never say I'm going to be a priest or a nun so that I can get to heaven. And that's what, that's what the doctrine of the church expects of them. Like you can be gay, but you just can't act on it or say you're gay really, or you can say you're gay, but if you engage in sexual, if you engage in sexual activity or achieve a relationship or have love or children, we are going to turn our back to that because that is not allowed. Right? That's the law of chastity. And I mean I'm. Am I wrong on the doctrine of the church here?

John Dehlin [01:29:36] No. And let's just take, let's just say sex. Yes, but, but it's really, if you fall in love with somebody and you want to marry them and you want to dedicate your life of commitment to them and they just happen to be of the same gender and you get legally married and you do it all legally and you love each other and it's. Even if it's monogamous, if you choose that, that's, that's sinful, that's evil in the sight of God in the church. And then you are, are not allowed to engage as a first class member of the church. You're a third class member of the church, you risk excommunication and you're damned to live in a subcategory of heaven. And you won't be with your parents, you won't be with Heavenly Father, you won't be with your siblings, you'll be damned to a lower degree. And there's no part in God's plan of salvation for you. There is no part for the gays if they actually have love. Sex is just one component. It's actually just emotional intimacy and companionship and connection. That's what they're forbidden. And to this day, It's December, whatever, 17th, 20, 20, 18, 2020. That Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints still condemns same sex, love, monogamy, and commitment as evil, an abomination, and as an abomination that keeps you from the Lord's presence in the afterlife.

Heather Gay [01:31:04] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] And what do you think about that teaching?

Heather Gay [01:31:06] That's not the culture. That's the doctrine of the church. And I would never diminish what homosexual or gay men and women experience because I have had an. You know, there was an avenue for me to explore my sexual identity and have fulfillment and love and commitment and follow the gospel plan of happiness. But as a divorced woman, I would be remiss if I didn't say I commiserated a hundredfold, because here I'm an adult woman that's been sexually active for 11 years, and now I'm supposed to just be celibate and marry someone on the premise of our makeouts. It's crazy, and, you know, that's crazy. But I risk. I risk my membership in the church, my standing with my family, my communion with God if I pursue a sexual relationship with someone I love outside of the confines of a temple marriage. And my gay brothers and sisters face that, but they also don't have the option of a temple marriage. So, like, we are all in this together. And although there's an avenue for me to safely get back to God and have sex and have love and have commitment and a family, there is no option for you, my friend, if. If we believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you are excluded. And you are the most important people in my life. The most important people in my life. And you have. You're more evolved and have more love and more to give to the world and to a family than I ever would. And here I esteem myself because of my gender bias, like, to be what God wanted, and you're an aberration. And I didn't believe that, but I hadn't been. I hadn't had such deep love for someone in those circumstances because I hadn't been exposed to it and I hadn't been allowed it. You know, it took, like, when Dre said that, it took her being humbled and living, like, with her green apron and not being part of the Queen of the Moms when she was superior to all of us. Truly, absolutely superior. And I was always drawn to her. I wouldn't have. There were a lot of women I didn't notice. I always knew her and I always knew her kids and I always. There's a power about you. But when I became totally entrenched in my friends lives and the only people that understood me, I felt like during that time and who dropped everything to support me and support my children and be wonderful to me. That's when my first schism of faith occurred in my faith crisis. I was like, I cannot reconcile this. And when I said who do I want to be in heaven with? All of a sudden, of course my children. But it's not my ex spouse who I for which I am sealed, for whom is the only link back to the celestial kingdom. It is these men that are living their truth and who still love me and accept me with all of my prejudices and my preconceived, you know, dogmatic notions and wickedness. Never was happiness. Sodom and Gomorrah, you know, like. And they understood that and embraced it and had served missions and loved all of the wonderful things about the gospel. But it was fundamentally a cognitive dissonance with who they were, who they were born to be and how they were going to live their lives. And I felt a kinship to that because I, who I was born to be and who what my future looked like was eerily similar. And neither of us none of those options of just celibacy and duty and martyrdom. Now martyrdom in marriage was fine. Martyrdom as a single woman was cats in a rocking chair and dust balls under my bed. And that was not going to happen. That's not who I was born to be. And all of a sudden it was like, I was born this way and you were born this way. And I cannot raise my daughters in a church that teaches them that who they, who their value to God is based on who they love. Because I don't believe that. I don't believe that about God. I do not believe that about our Savior. I do not believe that about our humanity or our fellow man. I think gender is fluid. I think sexuality is fluid. And I think that for us to box it and contain it because it's such a powerful life force is a detriment to mankind. And I will not pay tithing to a church that supports that regardless of my beliefs. I may believe the first vision, and I do, you guys, I believe the first vision occurred. I don't think Joseph Smith was a charlatan. I think that he prayed and he saw that and it, he experienced it. Just like I believe Muhammad did when he received the revelation for the Quran. Just like I believe, you know, a lot of 15 year old young boys, God chooses 15 year old young boys. I don't know why, for the world religions, but I don't, I don't not believe in the Virgin Mary and I don't not believe in, you know, all of it. But I don't believe that I want to contribute my time, my sweat equity and my money to a church that's going to tell my children that their worth in the eyes of God and their salvation is contingent on the gender they identify with and the gender they choose to love. Because I think that is irrelevant. And that's when my faith started to absolutely deteriorate.

John Dehlin [01:36:53] If I can just add one very quick thing. For me, the most heinous, odious, despicable part of the LDS Church's teachings around LGBT people is that the net effect of the teachings of the church is that true joy and happiness is impossible in this life. And the only way that they can be with someone that they truly love and find true joy is if they die. And we wonder why. The suicide rates in Utah have been sometimes two to three times the national average. There has to be at least some association with, with telling 5% of your population, which is the LGBT population, It could be 10%. It just depends on how you define it. But telling this huge percent of the population, you have to die to find joy and true love, then why wouldn't they just go ahead and die?

Dre Nord [01:37:52] Right? That's pretty powerful when you think about it that way. And that. It is. It's a terrible, It's a terrible doctrine, I think. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] And, and for a church, for me, for a church, what makes it hard is our church says that, okay, yeah, the Pope is a good man, or, you know, the Billy Graham or whatever, Dalai Lama, all have inspired, you know, but our God, our prophet has the bat phone to God. Our prophet is the only one that speaks directly to God. If you're going to make that claim, then what you're basically saying is that God wants these LGBT people to be lonely and sad and miserable, and God doesn't want to expand the plan of salvation because, look, there's 130 whatever sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. There's been several proclamations, several declarations. We got rid of polygamy. We gave blacks to the priesthood. There's all sorts of ways we've changed, right? We've changed in a million ways. In fact, if there's one thing that's been constant in Mormonism. It's been change. The church wasn't even called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when the church started. They changed the name like three times. Just the name. You know what I mean? But you're telling me that by 2020, when you've seen this decades littered with LGBTQ suicide, depression, ostracization from family and a plan of salvation that makes no room, no room for these people. There's no plan other than celibacy or mixed orientation marriages, which means depression and sadness and misery and.

Heather Gay [01:39:33] And a lie.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] Right? And living a life seat. Absolutely living a life that God doesn't care enough, even though he can talk to the prophet and the prophet can create section 139 or 140 or 145 declaration 3 that. That the Prophet and God don't care about these people enough to amend the plan of salvation so that there's a role for them to have happiness and joy in this life, authenticity in this life, and true love in this life. That God isn't smart enough or caring enough or creative enough to come up with a component of a plan for these people. They're just. They have to die to find happiness and love. That's awful. And for all the way Love Loud and press releases and the Mormons and gays website and all the ways that you have tried Mormon church to say we don't hate the gays, we love the gays. Look, we have a website that says Mormons and gays. We'll say the word gay. That was a huge. That was a huge moment when the church was actually willing to use the acronym LGBTQ or even acknowledge gay or lesbian as an identity versus always saying same sex attracted or just evil sinners, which is what we did for decades and decades. Right? But. But it's not enough for the church to say we don't hate the gays. Look, Love Loud Dan Reynolds. Imagine Dragons. Tyler Glenn. Like we love the gays. No. Either God's going to talk to our prophet and create a new component of the plan of salvation that allows these people to have joy, authenticity and love in this life, on this earth, on

Heather Gay [01:41:19] this earth, on this planet.

John Dehlin [01:41:20] Or. Or game over. Right? It's not. It's not of God. It's not of God. It can't be of God. How can it be of God?

Heather Gay [01:41:27] It can't be of God. And if you believe the doctrine and covenants that God exists on a revolving globe of glass and fire where time is of no essence. And then our bodies and our genitalia is of no essence, you know, and how we define who we love and who we are, it's hearts, not parts. You know, it's. It's all of it. And that is doctrine. It doesn't matter how many.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] That's why they can't change it. Cause how do you change doctrine? You know, it makes it look like they're making it up and caving to social pressure if they can.

Heather Gay [01:42:01] Well, I feel like they're. And I feel like it's. I don't understand how people are just absolutely swallowing that. We're changing the terminology in the temple and the covenants we made in the temple, like God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And that gave me solace as a true believing Mormon. And to know that my sister, when she first received her endowment, made different blood oath covenants than I made 10 years later is interesting to me.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] But. But it's. But it's also outrageous because, okay, they'll make the garment shorter for white middle class women. They'll take the veil away for, you know, east bench white Mormon women. They'll change the temple vows so that women don't have to keep, you know, promising to hearken to their husband as the husband. Covenants with God. Covenants with God. They'll change all that because we can't lose our white, you know, upper middle class, educated Mormon women. So we've got to make changes for them. Yeah, got to keep them. But sorry, LGBTQ people, we'll. We'll make a PR statement in the first love loud, and we'll cart out, you know, an occasional straight celibate LGBT person to say, we love the gays and here's a website. But they won't make changes, meaningful changes for them other than to make a hateful 2015 exclusionary policy. Only then to have. After there's massive outrage and huge disaffections. Oh, then they roll that back and say that was. It was revelation to create an outrageous hateful exclusionary policy. And then it's revelation to roll it back. But there's no actual revelation to give these LGBTQ people authenticity, joy, and love. God doesn't care. The prophet doesn't care. The church is bound to have all these deaths and suicides and misery. It's.

Heather Gay [01:43:58] And that is not imperfect humans running the church. That is God. God.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] God wants.

Heather Gay [01:44:04] Russell M. Nelson speaks directly to God, and God has said, it's still not okay with me. It's Adam and Eve, and it is that Plan. And if the church were to come out tomorrow, if Russell M. Nelson were to say, we renounce the family proclamation, we do not believe that God and mother, God and gender are intrinsic to your eternal identity and that your genitalia dictates your role in life and your proclivities as a son or daughter of God and your salvation. If they were to say that, what would happen? What would happen to my testimony? Like, I'd be like, I knew it. I knew they'd change their mind about gay people and transgender. And I knew it. You know, like, what did black people that joined the church before 1978 believe? And when that. And they said, I had so much faith, I was so believing. And then I knew it would happen. In 1978, they finally said I could have the priesthood. And we tell these beautiful tear jerking stories of, you know, this young man sitting down and having everyone put their hands on his head and he's now worthy of the priesthood because it's 1978 and we've already fought era, we've already fought civil rights, we've already lobbied and spent tithing money to keep all of that wave from taking us over. But we could not hold back the unhallowed hand of God and society has progressed and black people have the priesthood. You know what I'm saying? And like all of a sudden, we've opened up this whole demographic. If God were to do that tomorrow and the church made a declarative statement, renounced the family proclamation and gave eternal salvation, new and everlasting covenant to any couple that lived the standards, committed their money to the church and appeared at the temple regardless of gender, what would change?

Dre Nord [01:46:06] I mean, I think that I'm, and I'm actually so surprised that that has not happened yet. Obviously I don't personally believe that the church is true. I don't think that God is telling the prophet that. But I'm surprised that on a functional level of seeing how many people are leaving the church. Why as a business, they're not cluing into that and thinking, we should probably make some changes. It's in their hands. They can make the changes. Because I think it would do only good in the church. I think then there would be less people leaving. Think about how many gay people who want to be in the church could now be in the church who still

Heather Gay [01:46:42] read their Book of Mormon.

Dre Nord [01:46:43] Yeah, I don't understand.

Heather Gay [01:46:44] Who feel a deficit in their life because they can't circle back to their families and to their identities and who have had to absolutely be total Pioneers and go to their mission president, parents, and say, I was gay. I came back. I tried it out again for five years. I put my garments back on. I lived, I committed, I served.

Dre Nord [01:47:06] I'm gay. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:47:07] I am gay. And I'm going to be gay. And I'm going to marry a man, and I'm not going to sleep around or do meth or do whatever you think we do. I'm going to marry a man, and we're going to have children.

Dre Nord [01:47:17] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:47:18] And we're going to change the world. And, like, I still don't get to go to heaven with you. I'm still a blight on how you define your family and the doctrines of the church. Like, and I believe. Like, I keep thinking maybe God will change his mind about gay people and. And transgender people and humans in general. But, like, if God does, you think all my problems would be solved. But there's a part of me that's just like, oh, really?

Dre Nord [01:47:50] Well, you know, that's. And that's the other thing.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] What do you mean by oh, really? What do you mean?

Heather Gay [01:47:54] I mean,

Dre Nord [01:47:57] it's the same thing we were talking about.

Heather Gay [01:47:58] Where is truth?

Dre Nord [01:47:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:01] It starts to look like they're making it up.

Heather Gay [01:48:03] Because a part. A part of the Book of Mormon that I deeply, deeply believed was that God is the same yesterday and forever. And what seems archaic is because it's true. What seems backward is because it's true. And the rituals and the things that we do in the temple as weird or as out of, we need these as weak, fallible humans in order to retain a relationship with God. And there's some beauty and reverence and dignity to that for me, and for it to shift and change. Like, I'm not no longer attending the temple. Had I been attending the temple when the transition of the language changed, first of all, I would have been upset because I've memorized it.

John Dehlin [01:48:52] You have to relearn it. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:48:53] I'd be like, wait a second. I'm. I don't need any help. Like, I love to just be like, I got this.

Dre Nord [01:48:58] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:48:59] You know, watch me watch. Watch and learn, sister. And I always used to, with anticipation, wait for them to, like, pull me through the veil. And I'd be like, you notice? No whispering, no prompting. That was me. Man had it all. Which is just pride, you know, which I clearly suffer from. But, yeah, I don't know how I would swallow that. I've been shocked at how the members of the church have just accepted it so willingly.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] The changes for women, the changes for women. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:49:30] Because we have, we have told ourselves stories for decades of why we are, you know, we. What is the word? Hearken to our husbands as they hearken to God. I was shocked that all of these, these are big, huge fundamental changes and no one was really talking about it. No one was saying, wow, I'm glad I get to hearken straight to God now. I don't have to go through my, you know, you don't have to veil your face, my dumb ass husband. I don't have to veil my face in order to participate in the true order of prayer. I don't have to hearken to my husband as he hearkens to God. Because I think we realized that 50% of our active, you know, pioneer women were like, well, guess what? My connector piece, if we were playing, you know, mm, Publix, where we like, build the pipes, you know what I.

Dre Nord [01:50:22] My joint is faulty. It's faulty.

Heather Gay [01:50:27] So we need to. And I'm just shocked that no one said this is a. I mean, I'm expecting anyone to be critical. I think change is great and good and it shows evolution, it shows progression. But, like, why isn't anyone saying, listen, stay with it. We've already changed a lot of the gender roles in the temple doctrine, which we believed was archaic symbolism from the beginning of time. And that was going to. Actually, those are the things that we're going to do to get into the celestial kingdom. You know what I mean? Those rituals and those, everything. Those tokens are not. They're tangible and they're physical for a reason. They're not ephemeral. They're not just concept. They're not conceptual. They are actual. And we've already changed the language. We took away blood oath. Now we took away gender bias for the most part. Now we don't veil your faces. Give us six months. Give us six years. We are going to take away,

Dre Nord [01:51:30] you

Heather Gay [01:51:30] know, all of our discrimination against homosexuality and gender. Because gender is. Gender is the real thing. Like, if God created my soul as a female soul, there is no masculine or feminine. There's only human. So, God, you want me to be female? What does that even mean?

Dre Nord [01:51:54] Well, according to the family proclamation, it means staying home and taking care of your children. I mean, it's in there nurturing.

Heather Gay [01:52:01] It's what it says, it's in there.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] Husband provides, woman nurtures.

Heather Gay [01:52:05] Yeah, and the only reason a woman should work outside the home is if the provisions are not being met or her circumstances prove it to be impossible to not.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] What do you guys think about that now, like even for your daughters being taught that, that, like this is, this is because this is the thing. Another one of the things so many when, when, when Mormon couples get divorced, often because there's a faith crisis in one or both, they should have never gotten married so young without knowing each other. They get divorced and then the, the women didn't get an education, didn't pursue their careers and then they're 35 or 40 or 45 or 50 and their husband may or may not pay alimony or child support. They may or may not have enough money to get by on, on now supporting two households. And the woman in so many instances is just left screwed, left high and dry without a career, without an education, without confidence. Right. And so it's not just like, oh, the church makes a change and now like, oh, it'll be better like if the church were to make fundamental changes around gender or not, like, what do you want your daughters to be taught? And how is the church serving women right now? Now that you are guys, now that you're in your 30s or 40s, grasping with having experienced a divorce or, or maybe two. How did the, how did the church set you up for success? Or did you succeed in spite of the church and then tie it back to the proclamation on the family and what all these girls are being taught?

Gender Roles, the Family Proclamation, and Its Impact

Heather Gay [01:53:40] Well, I can speak immediately to that. Like, is it, would we all agree and concur that it is ideal for a girl to marry a boy that's a returned missionary in the church? In the church.

John Dehlin [01:53:53] Orthodox Mormons would say, yeah, well, not

Heather Gay [01:53:55] even, I mean, okay, I'm a Mormon. I'm just like an average Mormon. I'm not even, I wouldn't even say

Dre Nord [01:54:00] an RM is better than a non.

Heather Gay [01:54:02] Like, is she, she's marrying a guy, he's, you know, 21. Is he a returned missionary?

John Dehlin [01:54:07] Like all that's being equal.

Heather Gay [01:54:09] Was there not a decree from the prophet that said every able and willing man of age should serve a mission, a full time mission, and did that increase or decrease the amount of men that serve missions? And the decree that we put on the pressure we put on families, would we all agree to that? Mormon, ex Mormon, whatever.

Dre Nord [01:54:30] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [01:54:31] What if we said, what if the prophet just said every woman should have a bachelor's degree before she gets married? She's barely going to be, barely going to be 21. But before you marry, a man should serve a mission and a woman should have a bachelor's degree, you know, like, okay, in the nether parts of the World, that is a big dream.

John Dehlin [01:54:52] Now with pathways, they could get it for cheap.

Heather Gay [01:54:53] But with the Perpetual Education Fund and with everything, we're going to make sure that every woman that is willing has a higher education and a practical career for no other reason than because we can do it, we can facilitate. We're a billion dollar church. We're evolved. We love women, we love men. We're gonna give men a foreign experience of absolute service that will increase the depth of humanity and proclaim the gospel. And we're going to give women a chance to be educated and informed and enrich their homes. We don't even have to have it be for a career. Enrich your homes. You don't want to go to school, trade school, but before you get married, a man should serve a mission and a woman should have an education. What would that do to the membership of the church and the success of the church?

Dre Nord [01:55:41] It would be a billion times better,

Heather Gay [01:55:43] but it would also divert the success because when you have an education, when you have a practical skill, you are not willing to sit in the passenger seat. And that's something that we fundamentally know. And that's why the church has. Do you think the church loves education? We have the Lord's university. Enter to learn, go forth to serve. That's not just for men. There's more women at BYU than there are men and maybe other institutions where, you know, women go to byu. It's harder for like a white east bench holiday girl to get into BYU than any other area of the world because there's so many of us, you know, and we do not. We've not even nudged toward that. We haven't even said it. We've like when a family is not possible, when marriage is not on the horizon, education is a wonderful pursuit. That's what we say. And the same with a mission. Why have we not made it a rule for women? Because we have different roles.

John Dehlin [01:56:46] Well, girls do go on missions.

Dre Nord [01:56:48] They're encouraged.

Heather Gay [01:56:48] They do, but they're not encouraged. I mean, it's not a decree. Is there a difference if a girl.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] Oh my gosh, it doesn't matter.

Heather Gay [01:56:54] If a girl doesn't go on a mission and a boy doesn't go on a mission, is the flight the same?

Dre Nord [01:56:58] No, it's really different.

John Dehlin [01:56:59] That's right, yeah.

Heather Gay [01:57:00] You guys, let's be clear.

Dre Nord [01:57:01] Totally different.

Heather Gay [01:57:02] And any believing Mormon wants to come head toe to toe, let's discuss it because I would love to know. Because I was a returned missionary and if anything it made me less desirable because she's gonna. Good luck with that one. Speaks foreign languages. Oh, she thinks she's like, you know.

Dre Nord [01:57:20] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:57:20] She's lived outside of her parents or a husband. Good luck.

Dre Nord [01:57:25] Yeah. No, but the proclamation does. I mean, it's really clear about what our roles are as women and as men. And if that were to change, I mean, I think that would be incredibly beneficial just to us all as humans. But I totally get what you're saying, that it would not further the agenda of the church to have these little families, you have babies raised in the church, you know, rinse.

Heather Gay [01:57:51] And we don't encourage, of course, we never discriminate against education. But the women that are coming at me so hard, fast, and saying, I'm a disgrace to Mormonism and I'm a disgrace to, you know, the church, it's like you. I'm just. I'm just trying to navigate it. Like, I wish my life had been perfect. I wish that I married a man that loved me and wanted me to be everything I could be. I wish that he had been this committed to the falsehood of marriage as I had been. I wish for all of that, but it didn't come true. And so I'm just doing the best I can with what's happened. And like, if you had a college education, if you didn't have a million dollar business that gave you equal footing in your marriage, you would probably have a different perspective. And there are Mormon women that don't have income, that don't have status in their marriage, and that don't have educations. And they are dutiful, wonderful, believing martyrs. And I love and esteem them. And I think they are greater than me. It's not about accolades, it's about options. And there's a reason we don't decree options for women in the church. And we have to look at that and say why? And then also say, we are not at fault for realizing so late in life, as soon as we stepped out of our boxes like Glennon Doyle has told us we could, there's a reason we go to the zoo and see the cheetah on the yard, you know, in the cage, we feel sadness.

Dre Nord [01:59:28] Why?

Heather Gay [01:59:29] Because we know that they are. They could be more. They were born to be more. But why would you ask for more when all of your needs are met?

Dre Nord [01:59:38] Yeah. When you're safe, you're protected, you're fed,

Heather Gay [01:59:42] you're cared for, and your needs are much lower. When you get married at 19, never had a career, never had an education, and your virtue is based on saving Yourself for one man and now you've given it up. Good luck on the dating scene, you know what I mean? And that's how I feel about

Dre Nord [02:00:09] the

Heather Gay [02:00:09] Mormon Church right now.

Dre Nord [02:00:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:14] The proclamation of the family hurts. It hurts gay and lesbian, bisexual Mormons. It hurts transgender, gender, non binary Mormons. It hurts women and it also hurts men.

Heather Gay [02:00:28] Absolutely hurts men.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] Is it only, should only, should only a woman nurture children?

Heather Gay [02:00:32] No, absolutely not.

John Dehlin [02:00:34] Or should a husband nurture? Is it, is it the woman's role to nurture a child or is it both parents parents job to nurture a child?

Heather Gay [02:00:40] It's both parents job and it's both parents job to provide for that child. And it's ridiculous amount of pressure we put on men. Like provide, have discretionary time, have discretionary income, be. And then also give up your 10%

John Dehlin [02:00:55] of your income and serving your callings

Heather Gay [02:00:57] and do it well.

John Dehlin [02:00:57] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:00:58] And be funny and be cool and show up and put up the chairs for state conference and take them down. And also don't upset your family. Also be a soccer coach.

John Dehlin [02:01:06] Never look at porn.

Heather Gay [02:01:07] Also never look at porn. Never ask your wife to do anything outside of the standards of procreation. You know what I mean? Like all of it. And the pressure we put on men is equal and as sinister as the pressure we put on women. And it's just relegating people to a role that they may or may not ascribe to. And not saying like it's fine to say this is the easiest way, but to say this is the only way you'll be happy. Yeah, that is what the Family Proclamation says. The Book of Mormon has a lot more latitude, but the Family Proclamation has been made doctrine since 1996. And it doesn't just say that your gender is integral to your salvation and that your sexual proclivities are integral to your salvation. It also says that this is the only way you'll ever be happy.

John Dehlin [02:02:01] Really happy, truly happy, truly happy.

Heather Gay [02:02:03] And the rest is just the devil's

John Dehlin [02:02:06] spin, superficial, fake, fake happiness and will never sustain.

Heather Gay [02:02:11] And we have not discovered that for ourselves until we truly have had our own money, our own financial success and our ability to step away from the.

Dre Nord [02:02:26] The traditional dynamic.

Heather Gay [02:02:27] The traditional dynamic of the husband provides and we are lucky to be under his umbrella. And this is true for me, who has always been, I think I need to check my privilege since the time I was born, you know, And I have been absolutely privileged and entitled my entire life, including undergoing a divorce and having the privilege to even have a side gig or A business. But even for myself, with all of that, I did not understand my intrinsic worth as a human being, not even just as a woman, as a human being to God, to my fellow man, and to myself, until I had an independent financial success, Which was through the business.

Dre Nord [02:03:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:21] Can I just say, you both lived the family proclamation, and I don't get a sense that it brought you happiness. It didn't end for you because you weren't living it. You were living it, and it didn't end well, and now you're not living it. And I'm interested in you guys contrasting your happiness and joy living under the proclamation with your happiness and joy not living under it. Dre, what would you say about that?

Heather Gay [02:03:49] Because you were living under it. You weren't an active, believing Mormon, but

Dre Nord [02:03:51] you were absolutely following that stay at home mom.

John Dehlin [02:03:54] You didn't want this path if. You know.

Dre Nord [02:03:57] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:03:57] No.

Dre Nord [02:03:58] And it's funny, because I. I did think that this is. This is how I'm going to be happy. Stay at home, mom, raising my kids, going to the zoo, going to Thanksgiving Point, volunteering in the class, doing all those things. And, of course, those things did bring me joy, but feeling limited to that. This is the box you have to be in. Stay there. And so if I, you know, have an idea of something that I want to do for my business or something that I. I think I could make money or something that I could do outside of those roles as wife and mother, then I felt shame and felt bad and then. But also felt longing. And you just. It's a terrible way to live, to just stuff who you really are and keep. Just keep it down, you know? And now, certainly, it's embarrassing and lonely to be single and divorced and have that other failure under. Under my belt.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] And we're reframing it.

Dre Nord [02:05:04] Yes. Yes. And it's not a failure, but. But I feel that way, you know? But I feel hope. Maybe I'm not 100% happy right now, but I feel hope. I'm excited about where my life is going, and I'm excited to shed that idea that my value lies in simply being a wife and mother. And guess what? Not everybody's gonna feel the same way as me. I have one of my dearest friends. Like, she lives for being a mother, that. That brings her so much joy. And she has all these kids, and she is so good. She does not have one bit of interest in running a business or doing any of the things that I do, but she is doing exactly what she wants to do and loves It. And it brings her immense joy. And so I'm not saying that, like all women, you know, that it's. You're not going to have joy if you stay at home raising your kids. I. That's just wasn't. That wasn't enough for me. And I'm excited that now I get to do both without feeling shame, and I'm working on that. I love being a mother. It is my source of life.

Heather Gay [02:06:15] She's such a good mom.

Dre Nord [02:06:16] Well, thank you. And you are, too. She's such a good mom, and I love my kids. That is the number one thing in my life. And I'm also really excited to show them what their mom can do, because I think that she can maybe do some cool things.

John Dehlin [02:06:35] So. Have you ever felt better about where you are in your life and what your potential is than now?

Hope, Healing, and Looking Forward

Dre Nord [02:06:42] No. This is. I'm. I'm really hopeful, and I haven't had this hope before. Well, maybe I did, but I feel it now, and I think I'm going to have a good life. We're going to have good lives. Heather,

John Dehlin [02:07:05] what are you feeling, Heather?

Heather Gay [02:07:06] Just, like, deeply grateful for Dre. Just, like, deeply, deeply grateful for just who she is as a human and who she is to the world and to her children and to her husband and to me. Because she doesn't have an agenda, you know, And I. I'm always going to be beholden to the agenda of Mormonism. I just. I don't know how to break it.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] You feel like you will be?

Heather Gay [02:07:40] I feel like I will be. Right now. I feel like you are. And, like, when people. When Mormons say mean things to me, like, guts me.

Dre Nord [02:07:52] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:07:53] Because I deserve it. And I'm also. I feel sad because I just. I don't really have hope. And I know this sounds so pathetic, but, like, I am so committed to Beauty Lab being successful, and to showing up here and talking about my story, not because I esteem anything to myself, but because I love Dre, and I want her to have everything. So, like, I want to just, like, fall on the sword, whatever. Because I believe in her hope, and I believe in her vision, and I believe in her ability to. To be true and not be, you know, And I don't. I'm so deeply in it that I can only do it for her. I'm not doing it for myself. I don't know if that sounds so stupid, but, like, Housewives, I did because I believe in, like, everybody. And, like, sure, I'll throw. I'll be a clown on camera. I Don't care. You know, I'll show up and, like, tell the world the ugly truth about who I am and how pathetic I am and how Mormon I am and how scared I am every day. But, like, I will do it because it will bring something better. And I believe in her ability to change the world and in her ability to pioneer a new path. And if I attach my wagon to her star, somehow I'll get there, too. I'm pretty sure you're the star, but it seems like. It seems counterintuitive. But that's. That's just the martyrdom I identify under. That's just how I work. And so I listen to her, and I want only great things for her. And I am much more adamant about what she can accept in her life versus me. I'm like, oh, no, no. I'm still sleeping with clothes on one side of my bed.

John Dehlin [02:09:49] You know what I mean?

Heather Gay [02:09:50] But you should have a cleaning lady 24 7.

Dre Nord [02:09:52] You know?

Heather Gay [02:09:53] Like, it's just funny how we can project what we want on our children, on our friends, on our spouses, and just make sure that we keep what we want or need never rising to the surface. Cause then we have to address it and deal with it and be accountable for it. And I don't really want to yet.

Dre Nord [02:10:08] But what's so funny to me, John, is like. Cause I knew you were gonna say that. Cause we talk about this constantly, you

Heather Gay [02:10:15] know, but no surprises with Draynor.

Dre Nord [02:10:19] It's, like, just hilarious. Because, Heather, you are the one that is gonna, like, do all the things. You're the one that's gonna change the world. I mean, I don't, like, who's the freaking housewife? Guess who's been like, john's nice and throws me a bone and says, both starry. I'm like. I was, like, in a weird scene, like, behind Mary's hat, in a. On a restaurant, you know, like, shocked in the. Just horrified, you know, and have got to have a cameo. You're people. Sorry. People are not listening to this episode of Mormon Stories because they hear Dre Nord is gonna be on it. It's Heather Gay. You are compelling and have so much depth. And you are so wise and amazing. Like, and you don't. God bless you. You don't even realize it. And it is so obvious who of us is the real housewife? Heather, who was the one that they sat down with and said, it really doesn't make sense for us to move forward with you, Dre. I'm like, why? Because I am Just the most boring person on Earth. Yes. Like Heather, it is you.

Heather Gay [02:11:29] You are the one.

John Dehlin [02:11:31] I have to. I have to jump in. This is rude, but I'm going to jump in because we've only got about 10, 15 minutes left for today.

Dre Nord [02:11:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:37] First of all, I really hope I can have you back for one more hour.

Heather Gay [02:11:39] I mean, there's not four parts to Lord of the Rings. John, come on, man.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] I want to talk about Superman.

Heather Gay [02:11:46] Rocky 4 was a. I'm just kidding. It was great, actually.

John Dehlin [02:11:49] The real. I want to talk about the Real Housewives, but I don't want to rush out of this and. And I have to drop into coach mode for a second. Heather, can I drop into coach mode for a second?

Heather Gay [02:11:57] Coach me up.

John Dehlin [02:11:58] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:11:58] So, Rudy.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] And by the way, your friend. Yeah, exactly. Your friendship is so gorgeous and beautiful, and you're both amazing. I think this is Wonder Twins. You guys are an amazing pair. And it's not one or the other, it's both. And this is the story of a. Of a really important friendship. But I'm going to drop into coach mode just for a second. I did get my PhD in psychology. Okay.

Heather Gay [02:12:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:21] For a reason. So you talk about this beautiful moment where your. Your gay friends convinced you that you didn't have to choose that. You know, you. It was like you were thinking, I have to be either a perfect east bench, really, say president, Mormon, married mom, or. Or I have to be an apostate, leave the church. And then they blew your mind by saying, you can have both. Now, I'm not disagreeing with that, because there are a lot of people who find a way to make Mormonism work on their own terms. There are people who, you know, there are people who are liberal and Mormon. There are people who are atheist and Mormon. There are people who do all the things they want. They drink, they drink coffee, they drink tea, and they're still Mormon. Like, anything's possible in terms of belief or behavior and participation in the church. But there's one disservice that sometimes happens when you think you can have it all in terms of, like, I can be an orthodox Mormon and, you know, break the rules and not believe in the gay thing, but still believe in Joseph Smith. And you can't have all of it. In this one sense that I'm about to say is that there's a degree to which you do have to allow yourself to process the implications, the doctrinal and the theological implications from. From not just Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. And the priesthood and, you know, the leadership of the church. But it goes deeper than that. It goes back to God. It goes back to Jesus. It goes back to the Bible. You really do have to go through that gauntlet, that fire, that refiners fire, of inspecting it all. You have to let it all fall to the ground. You have to let Joseph Smith fall to the ground. You have to let the Book of Mormon fall to the ground. You have to let the Doctrine and Covenants, Thomas S. Monson, you know, Gordon B. Hinckley, Russell M. Nelson, the priesthood, the temple, you have to let it all fall to the ground. Jesus, the Holy Ghost, it all has to fall to the ground. And then you have to do the process of inspecting it all and deciding what you're going to pick back up again. It's not that you're going to necessarily say goodbye to Jesus forever or necessarily say goodbye to God forever or the Holy Ghost or even Mormonism, but you have to go. You, Heather, have to go through the process, like Dre did, honestly, of evaluating and deciding what you're going to pick up for you. And you, You. You've been too busy kicking ass, building a business, saving your family, staying alive and bringing goodness to the world, employing all these women. You haven't given yourself the time to actually process it all, and you can't have it all. You can't still believe that God speaks to Russell M. Nelson and believe that God loves LGBTQ people and that the church is true and that there are all these suicides are happening. You have to deconstruct and then reconstruct, and you haven't. You haven't had the time to do that yet, or you haven't wanted to do that yet, but you kind of need to do that. And I don't mean to be telling you what to do, but in my experience, that will be when you can disentangle yourself from some of these things that have you wrapped around the axle because you're a little bit wrapped around the axle because you haven't processed some of this. I made you cry.

Heather Gay [02:15:40] Well, yeah, you made me cry.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] Thank you.

Heather Gay [02:15:43] I mean, because. Because if I had to put that on the ground and then pick the pieces up, I would pick up all of it and it still wouldn't work. I would pick up that Russell M. Nelson talks directly to God, and the priesthood is real and Joseph Smith is true and saw the first vision, and the Book of Mormon is true and real and the gospel is true, and God loves LGBTQ people and the community. And gender isn't contingent on eternity, and we just haven't figured out how to reconcile it all. And then I would also have to change so many things about how I'm living my life and. But, like, it's all real to me, and it's all still true to me. And even though I know that, like. Like Alice in Wonderland, if I just take. Eat this and get small enough to get through the door to get to the other side, so much of who I am and what I believe and what I love and how I see the world and see my family and the people, you know, every sibling I have and cousin I have, like, I don't think I can ever be there. I don't think I can ever put what I want in my basket and check out and go, I just can't. I believe all of it, and it doesn't reconcile with everything else I believe.

Dre Nord [02:17:29] That's a really tortured way to live. And I'm sorry.

Heather Gay [02:17:33] I'm totally messed up. It's probably why I'm a housewife. It's the one good thing for being

John Dehlin [02:17:39] like, do you feel tortured? Do you feel torture?

Heather Gay [02:17:45] I mean, I feel lucky. I think, in terms of the world and the way people live. I am totally, deeply privileged, and this is a freaking first world problem. I do you guys, I'm sorry. Yeah, I feel tortured, but I have Netflix. I have food. I have a bed. I have a Range Rover. I have a best friend. I have a couch with a podcast of people listening to me. Am I tortured? Of course. Is that my price to pay for all of the joy? Not joy, but all of the benefits I have to my privileged freaking way of life? Maybe. And am I torture because it's my own fault? Yeah. Because I can't sift the wheat from the tares. And I love my faith. I love it. And I also am ashamed of it in so many ways. And I love my friends that are transgender, you know, and I love my gay friends, and I love my parents, and I love my siblings, and I love the Book of Mormon and I love the hymns, and I love my Relief Society president, and I love my visiting teachers, and I love my home teacher, and I love the gospel. But I also love booze and porn, you know, and sex and, like, I love all of it. And I just want to. I just. I don't want my children to think they have to pick. I just want them to tap into their desires and be who they are. And, like, right now, anything I do is just to blaze a trail for My children and Dre. And Dre. I want Dre to have all the good in life. And so she's blazing the trail for me, but I'm giving her all the frills, you know, I like the frills. Like, throw something your way. So is that tortured? Yeah, I'm tortured. Is it. Is it a first world problem? 100am I, you know, I'm not living in Rwanda. I'm not living in Burundi.

Dre Nord [02:20:00] You know what I mean?

Heather Gay [02:20:01] I'm not living Central African Republic, where nobody even stops at a stoplight. You know what I mean? I don't want. I don't. I'm speaking what my reality is, but I still have a sense of who I am in the grand scheme of the world and of eternity. And it seems to me like I'm not that important.

John Dehlin [02:20:28] And I'm going to ask you to consider the idea that you'll be able to give Dre even more and you'll be able to give your kids even more, and you'll be able to help even more people when you are able to choose yourself first and put yourself first and stand up and say the. The Mormon way of the woman sacrificing and self sabotaging for the benefit of others. The. The. The giving tree where you end up a stump that dies with me in this generation. And the moment that you stand up and say, I'm going to put myself first, you'll be able to give more to others than you could ever imagine at that moment. Not to put the pressure on you.

Heather Gay [02:21:32] I mean, I'm in therapy, but, like, even you saying that, I was like, I want to be the freaking stump, man. I want to be the stump.

Dre Nord [02:21:39] Well, we have been taught that she who suffers most wins. You know, that it's the martyrdom of women. And it is really, really deep in our culture. And, you know, that's a tough one to shake, Heather. But think about when we do put ourselves on the list.

Heather Gay [02:22:01] It's so much fun. It feels really good.

John Dehlin [02:22:04] What do you mean, put yourself on the list? What do you mean?

Dre Nord [02:22:06] Like, put. Like, we talk about. Yeah, we talk about a lot. Like, how women don't put themselves on the list. They don't. Like, it's everyone else's needs first.

Heather Gay [02:22:17] You know, Maz loves hierarchy of needs. Where. Where's. Where am I at on that? Like, I don't even put myself on

Dre Nord [02:22:23] the triangle, but I think, like. But recently Heather and I had an experience where we, like, kind of put ourselves on the list, and we're like, no, we're going to do this thing for ourselves. And it was like the best thing.

Heather Gay [02:22:34] And it was exhilarating.

Dre Nord [02:22:35] Great. And like, we talked about it for days and we're like, can we. Can you believe that? Like, we actually, like, said, okay, kids, family, everyone work.

Heather Gay [02:22:46] We caught Amsterdam.

Dre Nord [02:22:47] Yeah, like, we're gonna. We're doing something for ourselves and we're not gonna feel bad about it. And it's like, I put gas in my tank. I'm fine for like three years, probably.

Heather Gay [02:22:59] Gas in my tank. We had like basically a day where we just had fun. Yeah, we kind of, I would say we indulge the spoils of war. You know, we work really, really hard. We don't spend ever. We are bootstrappers. We have never taken out a business loan for our business. We have never taken a dollar from investors other than our husbands

Dre Nord [02:23:23] who pity

Heather Gay [02:23:24] fair to women around the world. This was a privileged position that we were in to be able to develop a business. This is not just by, you know, grit and that has to be said. But we just felt our power for just like a moment, you know, and

Dre Nord [02:23:39] it was so fun.

Heather Gay [02:23:41] It felt so good.

John Dehlin [02:23:44] Did you go out to eat?

Dre Nord [02:23:46] Do we go out to eat?

John Dehlin [02:23:47] Did you get a bottle of wine? What'd you do?

Dre Nord [02:23:48] Oh, yeah, yeah, Everything. And we like went shopping.

John Dehlin [02:23:51] Ice cream was a Ben and Jerry's.

Heather Gay [02:23:53] We bought whatever we wanted. We bought it for our friends. And we just, like, we just felt it. I mean, we just are so like, we. Whenever we. Anything happens, we put it back into the business. We put it back into our employees. We put it, you know, we really believe in the law of consecration, you

Dre Nord [02:24:07] know, and our community given our families and. Yeah, so it was like one. That one time we were like, really? Just like.

Heather Gay [02:24:17] She like booked like the Ex Uber xl. She's like, I'm taking care of my girl. Made first class tickets. We're just like. We just gave ourselves just a taste

John Dehlin [02:24:24] of, you know, pampering self care.

Heather Gay [02:24:27] Yeah, yeah, just, I mean, to an extra indulgence. Indulgence. Like. Like rich girls on the town and with no thought of tomorrow. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may die. And we felt that. And then we felt it. Like, you know, we did it and we felt it.

Dre Nord [02:24:44] It sounds like totally dumb and like just this, but we never do that. It was more about the act of like, doing something for ourselves and like

Heather Gay [02:24:54] enjoying ggaf about where any. And we'd already.

John Dehlin [02:24:57] Don't give a fetch just for those who don't Know, don't give a fetch.

Heather Gay [02:25:00] You know, we had arranged for our kids. What happened is we had a flight. We missed our flight. And so instead of just going back home and doing all the things we needed to be doing and like, oh, this will be. Give me a chance to clean out our sock drawer or whatever, we just said we're supposed to be out of town. We're going to be out of town today.

Dre Nord [02:25:14] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:25:14] And let's live high on the hog. And it was wonderful.

John Dehlin [02:25:17] Where were you?

Heather Gay [02:25:19] Well, we were here.

John Dehlin [02:25:21] Staycation.

Heather Gay [02:25:21] Yeah, it was a staycation. It was eight hours of, like, us just enjoying how hard we've worked. Really.

Dre Nord [02:25:29] That was so fun.

Heather Gay [02:25:29] It was so fun. And it was. We talked about it later. We kind of did a little evaluation. Like.

Dre Nord [02:25:35] Like, why are we so happy right now?

Heather Gay [02:25:37] Yeah. Why do we. Why do we feel like we could.

John Dehlin [02:25:39] Because you feel like a string.

Heather Gay [02:25:41] We feel like you get to do it.

Dre Nord [02:25:42] We literally. Men feel like it's so awesome.

Heather Gay [02:25:45] Imagine just waking up and knowing your life is always your life, your name is always your name, and your future is defined by you. Women wake up. And none of that has been told to us. I want my daughters. I tell my daughters, like, Ashley, my 17 year old said, Marriage is like. Marriage is like third standard. I'm always going to be Ashley Gay. And I want to make her proud to have that name. I don't want to make her like, write the name of another man in cursive and like, lose her identity. People still can't even connect with me because my mission, I served my mission as a different name. I went to college as a different name. And then I married a man and adopted his name. And then I got divorced. And like, I'm not even. I don't. He could legally. He wanted me to lose his name, you know, And I was like, I'm not going to do that to my kids. I'm going to. We had these children under this name, you know, and I gave up everything. So I'm going to keep the name. Not because I care. I want to be Heather Gay, although I'm proud to be, but because that's my children's name, you know?

Dre Nord [02:26:53] And I think your kids are really proud to have your name.

Heather Gay [02:26:55] I think they are proud to be. We're all in this together, but we don't wake up knowing that what we do is going to be with us forever. We wake up, what we do is going to help us attach ourselves to the right star for our wagon to get to heaven, you know?

John Dehlin [02:27:14] But it's changing.

Heather Gay [02:27:15] Well, we're changing it. We're trailblazers, man.

Dre Nord [02:27:18] Yep.

Heather Gay [02:27:18] We're blazing a new trail for ourselves and our children.

John Dehlin [02:27:22] You need to high five each.

Heather Gay [02:27:23] And for our gay, transgender brothers and sisters.

John Dehlin [02:27:28] So what I'm hearing is it's time to put Heather and Dre first on the list. It's time to put gay and Dre on the list, huh?

Dre Nord [02:27:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:27:39] Are you guys putting yourselves on the list?

Dre Nord [02:27:40] Oh, we did.

Heather Gay [02:27:42] We did a couple weeks ago.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] But, I mean, metaphorically, in life, you're. You're going to put yourselves on the list.

Heather Gay [02:27:47] It's hard as a mom, to be fair. Like, I think that we really will be on the list, but will be underneath. Our children will be number three and four.

Dre Nord [02:27:56] I'm good with that, though.

Heather Gay [02:27:57] Yeah, I'm great with that. That's what we. That's why we had children, you know, to raise them and to love them and to put them first. And there's. There is absolute nobility in that. And my youngest is 13. You've got a. Your youngest is six. Six. So I've got, you know, seven years on her, but some. I went out with a guy, and he just said, so Your youngest is 13, so you got, like, you know, you got, like, five more years, and then you can, like, sail around the world with me. And I just thought,

Dre Nord [02:28:24] oh, my gosh. Like, that's cool.

Heather Gay [02:28:28] Yeah, it was just like. Yeah, I guess in terms of child support, like, at 18, like, you don't write the check anymore, but as a mom, don't you feel like you're always a mom?

Dre Nord [02:28:36] Your mom, your mom.

Heather Gay [02:28:37] My mom's still my mom.

Dre Nord [02:28:38] I still talk to my mom.

Heather Gay [02:28:39] Motherhood is perpetual. It's the perpetual endowment. Yeah, but just saying that was, like, terrifying but cool.

Dre Nord [02:28:50] I thought.

Heather Gay [02:28:50] Could I just say, Annabelle, you're 18. Here's $100,000. I'm going to sail around the world with a foreign man whose last name I don't want to know.

John Dehlin [02:29:02] Jacques Pierre.

Dre Nord [02:29:04] And.

Heather Gay [02:29:04] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:29:07] one of my favorite things ever learned from Oprah, one of our patron saints.

Heather Gay [02:29:11] Yes. Greetings.

John Dehlin [02:29:12] In Christianity and Mormonism, we're taught, lose yourself. You know, become the giving tree. Become that stump. But we have so much addiction, self medication, depression, and suicide. That's not the way. What Oprah says is you can't give what you don't have. So what you do is you put yourself on the list first. You get healthy, you get strong, you get capable, you get resources, and then you've got a surplus to bless the lives of Others. And that's one of the things I love most about you two. Just in that first episode or second episode, whatever, you've got all these people you've employed. You've got all these women that you're helping feel better about themselves, but you've got all these mothers, these young women, mothers who not only have you given them jobs, employment, but you're also modeling for them. Self empowerment and strength. Because you guys have invested in yourself now. You are able to give to others, and that's. That's what you guys are doing. And it's only going to grow now. It's only going to grow.

Dre Nord [02:30:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:13] So keep investing in yourselves.

Dre Nord [02:30:16] We will. I'm going to make sure that Heather does it.

John Dehlin [02:30:18] Yeah, I guess doing it for Dre. Don't do it for Dre. Do it for Heather.

Heather Gay [02:30:22] It's not just Dre. It's the entire lgbtqia.

John Dehlin [02:30:25] Yeah. Start with Heather. How about.

Heather Gay [02:30:27] These are my trailblazers that have more courage. And so same with Dre. Like, I just feel like these people have more courage to own who they are and to say it out loud than I've ever had. Like, I'm, you know, crumbling and weeping, and I'm just saying I don't know if the church is true. That's all I'm saying. And I can barely drag myself out of here. Imagine if I had to say, I love women and.

Dre Nord [02:30:54] Or I feel like in my marriage, or I'm a man on the inside. Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:30:58] I'm a man. And I've never felt in my body. You know, I. These are. These are the people that I herald and respect and want to honor. And that's why I have to speak out against some of the doctrines of the church, because they don't just eclipse me from the plan of happiness, they eclipse the people I love.

John Dehlin [02:31:24] Yeah. And all I'm going to say, and I just want to end with this thought myself, is that I don't care what you believe about Joseph Smith, Heather Gay. I don't care what you think about the Book of Mormon. I don't care if you're in or out of the church. What I. What I would love to see is for you to allow yourself to put yourself first and to care about yourself and to invest in yourself. Because I think when our tide rises individually, it lifts all ships, and you'll just have. You'll. You'll. You'll be healthier and you'll be able to even be more of a blessing than you already have been to your daughters to Your employees to the LGBT community, etc. Once you. If the only thing I'll ask you to lose from your Mormon background is this sort of subservient, I don't matter self sacrificing, self sabotaging thing that we put on our women and men. Frankly, that's. That's the only thing that I'm hoping that. I feel invested in you considering reconsidering.

Heather Gay [02:32:25] I am committed to that, and I feel like Dre is equally committed to that.

John Dehlin [02:32:31] I'm so glad you guys found each other.

Dre Nord [02:32:33] Oh, same. We were gonna find each other, though. Meant to message.

John Dehlin [02:32:37] I've seen that smile somewhere before.

Dre Nord [02:32:40] I've heard that voice before.

John Dehlin [02:32:42] It seems we've talked like that. Did you guys know each other in the pre. Existence.

Dre Nord [02:32:46] Did you.

Heather Gay [02:32:47] Probably premortal existence. I feel like we promised each other we'd find each other, you know, and figure it out together. And I'm so deeply grateful. And I. And you know, I was listening back to our podcast when I was just like, you know, I felt sad, but like, I'm. That is, I was drawn. Drawn to Elsha and drawn to her, and I'm so grateful. You know, it wasn't out of superiority as much as just chemistry, you know?

Dre Nord [02:33:17] Yep. Gay and Dre and Dre.

John Dehlin [02:33:20] Gosh dang it.

Heather Gay [02:33:21] And you and me can do anything.

John Dehlin [02:33:23] But most.

Heather Gay [02:33:24] But mostly me. Did you love Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [02:33:30] Loved it. I've seen it three times.

Heather Gay [02:33:31] I've seen it four times. Salt Lake, New York, New York.

John Dehlin [02:33:35] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:33:36] Loved it, too.

John Dehlin [02:33:38] All right, so here's the deal. I want to have you guys back, but we don't have to do it immediately. I want to get these. Gosh during episodes out.

Heather Gay [02:33:45] Okay. Why don't you ask viewers and if they. By popular demand, we'll come back and talk all things Housewives as soon as the season's ended. I can talk all things House.

John Dehlin [02:33:53] Okay. Okay. Okay.

Heather Gay [02:33:54] So it's a month away.

John Dehlin [02:33:55] Whenever we do that, we'll do that. But I am just over the moon thrilled with what we talked about today, with telling your stories, with your vulnerability, with your power, with your wisdom, with your grace, with your beauty. I am just like. I feel better about the world because I met Gay and Dre. I feel better about the world.

Dre Nord [02:34:13] Thanks, John.

Heather Gay [02:34:14] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:34:14] I do.

Heather Gay [02:34:14] I feel devastated.

Dre Nord [02:34:18] It's rough, though. I mean, she's.

Heather Gay [02:34:20] I'm going to crawl out. If your army crawl out.

John Dehlin [02:34:23] Do you regret it, Dre? Do you regret.

Dre Nord [02:34:25] No, no.

John Dehlin [02:34:26] Doing this interview.

Dre Nord [02:34:27] Oh, of course not. No. I've been Dreaming. I never thought I would be on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [02:34:31] I'm so excited, Heather, you'll someday.

Heather Gay [02:34:35] I'm not trying not to regret anything. I'm trying to live in the moment and embrace the moment and be grateful for the people that are interested in anything I have to say. And, you know, the fact that this is Dre's thing is, like, gives me more joy than anything. And I don't regret it. And absolutely not. I'm thrilled and I am grateful to you and grateful to this forum and grateful to your audience. Really.

Dre Nord [02:34:58] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:34:58] Good, good.

Dre Nord [02:34:59] Really good community.

Heather Gay [02:35:00] Amazing, amazing, perceptive people that are honest and courageous enough to dig deep, which I have never been.

Closing Plugs and Farewell

John Dehlin [02:35:11] All right, plug all the stuff. Let's end by you plugging all the stuff. Your business, the show, whatever else you want to plug.

Dre Nord [02:35:17] Yeah, Beauty Lab and Laser, check us

Heather Gay [02:35:19] out because women want us to exist and men want us to exist. That's why we're here.

Dre Nord [02:35:24] Our Instagram is at Beauty Lab Laser. It's amazing and it's run by Heather.

Heather Gay [02:35:31] So we'd really like to say to anyone that has track marks from drug, intravenous drug use, anyone that has self harm scars, no strings attached, no questions asked, you just call and say, I want to book self harm scar treatment or drug, you know, drug scar treatment. And our staff is equipped to make it as sensitive and as easy, seamless as possible. You show up, you know, no confetti comes out of the clouds. You know what I mean? You just go back, you have your appointment and it is. You'll be treated by the most empathetic, wonderful humans that are expertly skilled.

Dre Nord [02:36:12] And people can find information about the foundation, about the scar treatment as well @beauty lab laser.com. and then there's a link just on the homepage for don't leave. And we are a 501C3.

Heather Gay [02:36:28] Yeah, we're a 501C3.

Dre Nord [02:36:30] So we have people donating all the time if anybody wants to donate. That just helps to offset the cost of the laser treatments for us.

John Dehlin [02:36:37] Does the nonprofit have a website?

Dre Nord [02:36:39] It's just a link to our website.

Heather Gay [02:36:40] It's a link on Beauty Lab Laser.

Dre Nord [02:36:42] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:36:42] But we do accept donations and we personally contribute to it just so we can offset the cost of the employees and the services. But we will. We are going to offer free scar treatment in perpetuity.

John Dehlin [02:36:55] We have and remind our listeners what you offer to women and men and trans people. Just your basic services, just so they know if you need what, oh, laser

Dre Nord [02:37:03] hair removal, skin care, injections, cosmetic Injections and, like, all of the Botox.

Heather Gay [02:37:11] Botox, lip filler, cheek filler. We treat cleft palates. We treat dog scars. We treat receding chins. We treat women that don't want to wear makeup and want, you know, contoured cheekbones.

Dre Nord [02:37:22] Hyperhidrosis.

Heather Gay [02:37:23] Yeah. Excessive sweating of the armpits, palms, feet.

John Dehlin [02:37:27] You already said hair removal, right?

Dre Nord [02:37:29] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:37:29] Hair removal is big for a lot of our transgender customers because, you know. You know, it's just matters if you're male to female or female to male, but we're here for it. There's absolutely. It's a wonderful staff. We are a facility that the lab loves you. That's, like, what we lead with. And we are beauty by the people. We're all in this together, and we. We love our beauty labbers. We deeply love them. They have given us life.

Dre Nord [02:37:56] Yep. And then people can watch Heather.

John Dehlin [02:37:58] There's a show, right? Isn't there a show? Are you on the show?

Dre Nord [02:38:00] Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, airing

Heather Gay [02:38:03] on Wednesday nights at 11pm if you have Xfinity, not Utah.

John Dehlin [02:38:06] Utah time.

Heather Gay [02:38:07] Bravo, Utah time, 11pm but, like, you can watch it streaming on the Xfinity app or, like, through Bravo tv. But, yeah, that's. I'm on the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. And how many more episodes there are? I'm not positive. I think there's seven more episodes.

John Dehlin [02:38:22] So 13 total, maybe. Okay.

Heather Gay [02:38:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:25] So is there more fun to. To be seen?

Heather Gay [02:38:28] Yeah, you know, it's entertainment, and it's fun, and these are women that are putting their lives out there, and I'm certainly putting my life out there for good or bad, and I'm open to the criticisms and the accolades, and they're equal. You know, they're equal. And I. I believe in the gospel, so I believe that, like, you know, for there's opposition in all things. So I am here for the love, and I'm here for the hate, and the hate's easier to believe, but the love feels so much better, you know?

Dre Nord [02:38:56] Yeah. So thanks for having us.

Heather Gay [02:39:00] Thanks for having us. Andre and I. I mean, the fact that John de Lynn is watching Real Housewives and Margi, it's just like, what? Oh, I thought you were doing.

Dre Nord [02:39:10] Sorry.

Heather Gay [02:39:11] Okay. But see, Dre, that's the thing is, like, I have to do it like this.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] No. Get it right one time.

Heather Gay [02:39:18] I'm telling you guys. But you can't. You can't look at me, and you can't count.

Dre Nord [02:39:24] I'm sorry. I can't do it.

Heather Gay [02:39:26] It's like A dancer going. And a one and a two and a one and a two. Like, you know, Come on.

Dre Nord [02:39:30] Just.

Heather Gay [02:39:31] Okay, just don't look at me. Okay. I got the count wrong. It's fine. Let's just do a. Let's do our thing. We got this.

John Dehlin [02:39:43] Yes.

Dre Nord [02:39:43] We did it.

John Dehlin [02:39:46] Druther.

Heather Gay [02:39:46] Druther. Gay and Dre. I want to lead with Gay.

John Dehlin [02:39:51] I don't want you guys to leave, but you gotta go.

Heather Gay [02:39:53] Life and children. But if by Popular man. If your viewers want to hear us come back, we are here to fourth.

Dre Nord [02:39:59] Or come back one more also.

Heather Gay [02:40:00] Yeah, I won't come back without Dre.

Dre Nord [02:40:02] Ever.

Heather Gay [02:40:02] Mostly me.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] All right. We'll have you back for then for sure. That's a guarantee. All right. You guys are amazing.

Dre Nord [02:40:09] Thank you.

Heather Gay [02:40:10] You are amazing. Thanks for having us. It's been an honor.

John Dehlin [02:40:13] All right, listeners, viewers. You guys are awesome. We love you. Thanks for your Support. Donate to MormonStories.org to keep this alive. Become a monthly donor. Thank you to all who make this possible. Have a wonderful Christmas and a happy new Year. Email us. Share this everywhere. Give us positive reviews on all the places. Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. We just love your support. We need your support. And again, your donations to the Open Stories foundation will allow us to continue into 2021 if you'll support us. So thank you so much. We love you. Give us your feedback. Email us. Let us know if you want to come on or if you know someone that should come on and comment on the blog. And only positive things. So you can comment on YouTube, Facebook, but only write good things. If you have criticisms, scream into your pillow. Send them to johndeliniimail.com and he'll respond. I just sent them to a wormhole anyway.

Dre Nord [02:41:09] Perfect. Smart.

Heather Gay [02:41:10] That's where they should go.

John Dehlin [02:41:12] Yeah. Where no one's going to pay attention or listen. But don't send the hate. We don't need the hate. The world needs more love, less hate. Love, you guys. Take care. And again, Gay and Dre keep doing. Keep tearing it up.

Heather Gay [02:41:23] Thanks for having us.

Dre Nord [02:41:25] It's been a cathartic.

Heather Gay [02:41:27] Yeah, cathartic.

John Dehlin [02:41:28] Keep putting yourselves on the list. I'm afraid for the world in a good way. When you guys just keep gaining your power.

Heather Gay [02:41:36] That was like a tagline. You're afraid for the world in a good way. For Gay and Dre, it all rhymes to rap. You spit in lines. What's happening?

John Dehlin [02:41:45] All right, guys, take care. I love you.

Heather Gay [02:41:46] Thanks you. Love you, too.

John Dehlin [02:41:47] All right.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.