Introducing the Panel of Single Mormon Adults

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 715

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and my

Michelle Ross [00:00:34] co host is Margi Dehlin.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] And we are very, very excited to have you join us for another edition of Mormon Stories live podcast where we focus on practical issues with the panel. So Mormon Stories does single interviews that are long form and then we also sometimes have panels to discuss interesting issues. It's part of what we've been calling our Mormon Transitions series.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] It is March 28, 2017, and today we have a very exciting topic for all of you. It's being Mormon and single and how sexuality interfaces with that. We're going to be covering having never been married and Mormon and being single and sexuality. And we're also going to cover sort of sexuality after divorce as a single Mormon or post Mormon. Before we jump into that, we want to just have a few quick announcements. Want to remind you guys that we have a workshop coming up in Fort Collins, Colorado, May 4th through 5th. It's going to be fun and meaningful and we're going to help a lot of people if you're interested in that.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Or we have a retreat coming up in Salt Lake City June 23rd through 25th. That's going to be amazing. And then we have a workshop July 7, 2017, on healthy relationships and healthy sexuality with our very own Natasha Helfer Parker. And I think Kristen Bennion is going to be there as well. I'm not sure. Kristen, are you going to be there? Yes or no? No, just Natasha.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] She doesn't know. Okay. So Regardless, check out mormontransitions.org events and you can check out our event calendar. We would love to have you guys support us. We want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories, Mormon Transitions, a thoughtful Faith Mormon matters. Please know that your donations make all this possible. If you have been enjoying this series, please please do support it because your donations make it possible.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Just 10 or $20 a month on a recurring basis can keep this sort of thing alive. So please donate. It's really easy. You could do it with credit card. You can do it over PayPal however you want. We want to encourage you if you have ideas for topics, if you have comments on past episodes, if you have ideas for future guests, please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we would love to entertain your ideas. If you're listening to this interview now on Facebook, please feel free to post comments or questions on the live stream on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page and we can incorporate your comments and questions into our Live discussion that makes these things fun.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] And then if you're not comfortable doing that, you can email your questions or comments anonymously to mormonstoriesmail.com and we would love to incorporate them into current or future shows. Okay, so that is enough with the introductions. How you feeling today?

Kristin Marie [00:03:43] Good.

Michelle Ross [00:03:43] I'm excited for today's topic.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] You are?

Michelle Ross [00:03:45] Yeah. How about you?

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Is that because you're planning on becoming single soon?

Ryan Stott [00:03:49] No.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] No. So why the excitement, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:53] Well, I have two daughters that are navigating.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] We do have two single Mormon daughters. Three, actually. All right, well, sort of.

Ryan Stott [00:04:02] Moment.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] All right, so let's begin and let's introduce our illustrious panel. We are really excited to have them today. So we have four people joining us today. The first is Kristin Bennion. Kristen has been on Mormon Stories, Mormon Transitions in the past. She's helped us out with retreats and workshops. Kristen, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?

Kristin Marie [00:04:29] My name is Kristen.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] Go ahead. You're muted again.

Kristin Marie [00:04:34] My name is Kristen Marie Bennion. I think we're supposed to say. I'm a practicing therapist, sex therapist in Orem, Utah. I own a practice there, working primarily with a lot of couples and singles around sexuality issues all along the spectrum of belief in Mormonism. And I live in Bluffdale, and I have a dog who's awesome. His name is Murphy.

Michelle Ross [00:04:59] Aw, cute name, too.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] You're single?

Kristin Marie [00:05:02] Yes, I am. Well, I think so, yeah.

Ryan Stott [00:05:05] And you've dated?

Kristin Marie [00:05:07] What?

John Dehlin [00:05:08] And you've dated?

Kristin Marie [00:05:09] I have dated, yes. I have a history there, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] Okay, so you're both an interviewee and an expert.

Kristin Marie [00:05:16] I'm wearing a couple hats.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] All right, well, welcome, Kristen. It's always great to have you.

Kristin Marie [00:05:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Our next guest is Michelle Ross. Michelle. Michelle is a moderator of a very important group. But, Michelle, why don't you introduce yourself and then tell us about the group you moderate.

Michelle Ross [00:05:34] Yeah. Hi, I am Michelle, and I live in Salt Lake City. I work in healthcare, healthcare operations. So my company contracts with hospital systems to go in and help them work, run their revenue cycle, just increase revenue, cut costs, improve processes. And I've been doing that for a number of years. And then, like John was saying, I'm one of the moderators for Single Mormon Transitions, which is a group started by John Dehlin about a year ago. It's almost been a year, not quite a year. And if anybody is interested in, you know, joining that group, it's a secret group right now. So you kind of have to go through the. There's. We have a. Like a Landing page, a landing site where you can go to on Facebook called Single Mormon Transitions Landing page and ask to join there. Yeah, I don't have any dogs. No animals.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Well, we're happy to have you, Michelle.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:38] Thanks for joining us.

Michelle Ross [00:06:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] All right, Paul Smith, this is your first time, I think, on Mormon Stories podcast. Correct me if I'm wrong, but please introduce yourself.

Paul Smith [00:06:49] Hi, my name is Paul Smith. I'm a personal injury attorney in Fresno, California. I'm divorced, three kids. In my spare time, I like to go to concerts and go to Mormon Transitions retreats. That's what I do in my spare time.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Thanks for the plug. We'll pay you later. Name your three favorite concerts you've ever attended.

Paul Smith [00:07:13] That would be Paul McCartney. I just saw Twenty One Pilots, which was awesome. And probably seeing Dave Matthews was probably

Ryan Stott [00:07:22] a pinnacle because

Paul Smith [00:07:24] I'd have to say mana's up there too. There's too many.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] All right, well, Paul, it's good to have you. Thanks for joining us. Good to be here.

Paul Smith [00:07:30] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] All right, and to round off our panel, we have Ryan Stott. Ryan, tell us a bit about yourself.

Ryan Stott [00:07:38] I'm very excited to be here. Just as Margi was saying, I think this is an exciting topic. I don't think it's been talked about enough. So this is fun for me. This is the first time I've been on a podcast. I live here in Salt Lake City. I think I was invited on this episode because I do have a lot of experience being single both within the Mormon Church and then after believing in the Mormon Church. So that's kind of what I'm planning on talking about today. When I'm not spending a lot of time listening to podcasts, I spend a lot of time up in the mountains, do a lot of climbing and snowboarding, and professionally, I do a lot of E commerce and software work.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] All right, Ryan, well, it's great to have you. Thanks for joining us. We want to welcome all our listeners. We've already got 75 listeners on Mormon Stories live up on Facebook. That's actually, I think, a record for these panel type discussions that are Mormon Transitions themed. There are a couple comments I'll list. Jayna writes Margi with lips. So she writes. Yeah, Margi. So Jayna's excited.

Michelle Ross [00:08:47] Thanks, Jaina.

John Dehlin [00:08:49] Jane also doesn't like my Easter colors, so thank you, Jaina, for your feedback. Several people, it's their first time to tune in. Holly writes, I really love the last podcast with Kristen. So, Kristen, you got a shout out from Holly and it looks like our Daughter Maya has joined us, so that's good, right? Hi, Maya. All right, so we're ready to begin, and this is going to be a fun topic, and let's just dive right in. So being single and Mormon and sexuality, that is a really interesting topic. So, Michelle, I think you came to us wanting to really talk about this topic. Why don't we just start?

Early Experiences with Church Teachings on Sexuality

John Dehlin [00:09:31] And I'd like to have you on for your own sort of Mormon Stories episode, but talk about your first introduction to being single and sexuality. And I'm guessing that it doesn't start with actually dating. It probably starts with messages you received as a youth growing up in the church.

Michelle Ross [00:09:53] Yeah, that's a perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about. I think I had contacted you and I had contacted Kristin because like Ryan had said earlier, I just don't feel like this topic gets enough airtime. I think singles are kind of pushed to the side in the church and even kind of in a post Mormon context. They, you know, they're.

Michelle Ross [00:10:16] It's almost like they're in a different world. They're not quite part of it all. So for me, I was. Last night, I was trying to think of some talking points for this subject and this topic, and I think I actually looked up the Strength of Youth pamphlet and reread it and was shocked all over again. Just some of the things it says. And so just to kind of briefly summarize some of the things that it says, you know, it says, never do anything that could lead to sexual transgression.

Michelle Ross [00:10:53] Treat others with respect, not as objects used to satisfy lustful and selfish desires, as though lust or sexual desires are selfish. Before marriage, do not participate in passionate kissing. Do not lie on top of another person. Don't touch the private, sacred parts of another person's body with or without clothing.

Michelle Ross [00:11:17] You know, avoid situations that invite increased temptation and do not participate in discussions that arouse sexual feelings. And then I was really shocked to see this because I assumed that in 2017, this would have been removed from. From the pamphlet. But it still says that the prophet Alma taught that sexual sins are. Are more serious than any other sins except murder or denying the Holy Ghost. So, you know, this thing that is so much a part of human nature and so much a part of.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:57] You can't.

Michelle Ross [00:11:58] I mean it. The pamphlet is telling you to be asexual, but humans aren't typically asexual.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] So, Michelle, tell us about in your youth, how those messages got kind of translated to you and how you internalized them.

Michelle Ross [00:12:18] Well, I mean, I Took it very seriously, I think I.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] Were you raised in Utah?

Michelle Ross [00:12:25] I was raised in Utah. I actually was raised in a part member family. So I have kind of a unique story and situation on that on one hand. But my own personal desire was to be very much a part of the church and very much active. And, you know, I subscribed to the Strength of Youth pamphlet, and I completely followed it. I, you know, I felt like there was definitely. It was very important to keep those rules. I'm a rule follower, you know, to top it all off. So I don't know. I think. I think I did internalize it. I don't think I struggled with it really, until probably my mid to late twenties. I really started to question it. I think it was easy for me.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] Let me ask about that. So. And then we want to jump to some others as well. Others be thinking about if or how you internalize the messages of the church or the For Strength of the Youth pamphlet as a youth. But, Michelle, is it fair to say, you know, if we're trying to be balanced, that maybe the for the Strength of the Youth pamphlet and the church messages around sexuality kept you safe or clean or kept you out of trouble?

Ryan Stott [00:13:38] Now, I'm.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] Those are all loaded words, but I'm just saying, was that all bad for you? Was there anything good about that for you?

Michelle Ross [00:13:45] No, and I think there was something good or. No. There was. There was definitely good associated with that, I think.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] What was the good?

Michelle Ross [00:13:56] Like you said, you know, I. No teen pregnancy, no STDs, no STIs, no, you know, maybe emotional baggage that I wasn't prepared to handle at that young age. So. Yes, absolutely. I think a lot of parents would probably prefer their teenagers not to have sex. You know, like, maybe wait until you're in your 20s, maybe wait until you're more mature. I think it had a lot of positives, but the way it's portrayed, it's not an option. You know, it's a sin, like Unto Murder. It's not portrayed as this is for your health and your benefit and out of love and, you know, so. But I.

Kristin Marie [00:14:38] There were.

Michelle Ross [00:14:39] I just had a conversation the other day with someone, with a friend, and we said, in a way, we feel kind of lucky because we didn't have to maybe go through some of the, you know, some of the sexual mistakes that people make in their teens and early twenties when they're. When they aren't quite ready to make those decisions. So, yeah, there were some positives, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Okay, good. So for you, there weren't really any problems until you're around 28. Is that fair to say?

Michelle Ross [00:15:10] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] Okay, that's great. Thanks for admitting that. All right, Ryan, how about for you, talk about didactually before we go to Ryan. Kristen, let's do women than men just for this question. So, Kristen, for you was there was. You know, up until what point did the church's messages about sexuality work for you versus not?

Kristin Marie [00:15:34] Yeah, I think with the strength of youth it created. Well, when I was younger, I never ever perceived that it was harmful or not. Loaded with some pretty shaming messaging and also like the way I perceive the strength for the Strength Youth pamphlet. Now I have an interesting.

Kristin Marie [00:16:00] So I went to two BYU schools, so it was kind of. That messaging was carried through with the honor code for me through undergrad and graduate school. So there's some layers there of single sexuality and kind of consequences that could actually come from violating those things. And I say violating because that's the language used in those types of things. So I similarly didn't really start saying, ooh, that's just not super healthy. I think I felt it in my heart in my beginning 20s, but not until about 25 and definitely later 20s where I was saying, why are we being compared as functioning full adults given the same kind of roadmap as children are?

Kristin Marie [00:16:51] And there's no one talking about it. So I think that's kind of a differed thing from leadership to say, well, just follow the first Strength of Youth pamphlet.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] So is it safe to say that for you the church's messages on sexuality, it felt like they worked for quite some time?

Kristin Marie [00:17:07] Yeah, I think so. At least up until 18. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Okay, so 18 for you. It started going. Going awry.

Ryan Stott [00:17:15] Okay.

Kristin Marie [00:17:15] Started getting. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Okay, Paul. Sorry, Ryan. Talk about whether the church's sexual messages affected you in. In your teen years.

How Shame and Church Messages Shaped Teen Years

Ryan Stott [00:17:26] It absolutely affected me. In fact, I'd say it was for me quite a bit earlier than what the two ladies have already described you. I remember being 13 years old and already I'm having non member friends who are having sex and telling me about it. And it's like, okay, wow, I'm already not even planning on having any sex until I'm at least after a mission. You know, I'm into my 20s, I'm trying not to even think about it. All of a sudden I've got friends who are doing it, telling me about it. And so, you know, it's in my face at a very early young age.

Ryan Stott [00:17:57] So, you know, out of the gate, you know, I also read the Four, strength of youth in preparation for this too. And I was kind of going through thinking of all this, I was like, you know what? At our core selves, we are basically genetic replicator. We're sexual beings, or even talked about previous podcasts. You know, some people are asexual. They don't have a drive for sex, that's fine. But for the majority of us, we're pre programmed for reproduction and it is a very powerful thing and it drives a lot of things we do. So at an early age, I'm exposed to this. You start thinking about it a lot.

Ryan Stott [00:18:31] You start having feelings and emotions. You go to church activities and you're getting aroused. It's constantly something that's, you know, always at the forefront of your mind. So I wish I didn't start thinking about it until I was later in my 20s, but that definitely wasn't the case for me.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] And then how did that negatively affect you at all as a team?

Ryan Stott [00:18:52] I don't know. Well, kind of like Michelle said, there's some good things that go around it. Some people get into it early and fast and maybe, maybe they have bad experiences, you know, maybe they, you know, get a lot of unneeded drama in their lives.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] But I'm talking about you.

Ryan Stott [00:19:07] Yeah. For me, it wasn't that big of an issue. You know, I always just kind of put myself on, hey, look, you know, I'm on the path, I'm good, I'll route it later. I just try to suppress, ignore it. It was tough, you know. You know, you have these sexual origins that are suppressed when you're very young, but for me, it wasn't that big of an issue. It was a challenge, but it wasn't. It wasn't that difficult, to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] Okay. All right, so so far, three out of four. I mean, Ryan, you're saying that it was hard because you were hearing about other people's sexual experiences, but overall the church's messages on sexuality didn't torment you as a teen?

Ryan Stott [00:19:46] Did torment me. It was a challenge. A little bit of a maybe kind of a non standard road that other people outside of the church didn't follow. But it wasn't that difficult as a team.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Okay, and is it fair to say it kept you out of trouble?

Ryan Stott [00:20:01] I'd say it did, yeah. I get involved with girls I shouldn't have. No one wanted pregnancies and, you know, no diseases or anything like that. So, I mean, there are some good things that came out of it.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Okay. All right. Paul, how about you?

Paul Smith [00:20:14] So I think my Experience was similar to Ryan's was I dated only Mormon girls, so. And very good Mormon girls. So I. While I certainly saw it everywhere and, you know, my. My friends had Playboys or whatever, and sex was around me doing. Due to the Mormon Church. I was never really. I never was. I never really succumbed. Came to that pressure because I was always with. With my Mormon friends. And that's something the Mormon Church does really well is it kept me inside that nest for far too long, I think is the ultimate end result is that the damage you start acting out later on in life.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] Got it. Okay, go ahead.

Michelle Ross [00:21:05] Okay, So I have a question just

Margi Dehlin [00:21:06] to follow up, because I'm curious. So in growing up as teens, how many of you. So did you have sexual feelings? Do you feel like you were awake

Michelle Ross [00:21:16] to that in your teens?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:18] Was there shame associated when you did? Or do you feel like it was kind of like a structure that almost sort of prevented the awareness around sexual feelings to have any shame. Was there a shame element? Do you remember feeling sexual things as a teen? And how did you feel about that when you did?

Paul Smith [00:21:38] I personally do not recall ever feeling shame.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] But.

Paul Smith [00:21:43] But it was. But it was all but. So, I mean, you asking the question is making me think about it. I can't remember ever feeling shame at all. It was just. It was just what it was.

Ryan Stott [00:21:52] I was not awake.

Kristin Marie [00:21:53] Yep.

Michelle Ross [00:21:55] You know, Margi, I actually feel that same way when I was a teenager. I wouldn't say that it was an issue. I know that for a lot of people, you know, they had a lot of sexual feelings as a teenager. And I don't know if it was because it. It was the church or it was just my. My group of friends, that wasn't really an option. And so it wasn't really something that I maybe thought about or even it wasn't a problem for me at all. Maybe, you know, there were some times in my late teens when I was dating some people where, you know, it definitely. I, you know, I definitely felt awakened, I guess you could say. But overall, I was safe in that net, and I didn't really have those feelings or. I don't know.

Ryan Stott [00:22:45] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] It sounds like all four of you kind of stay. Stayed morally clean. Okay, Ryan, go ahead.

Ryan Stott [00:22:51] I'm gonna maybe disagree a little bit. I did feel some shame when I was a teenager. Maybe I wasn't, you know, going out and having sex, but even like you're taught as, hey, you know, even the thought of sex is bad, and even, like, you know, looking at an image wrong or you know, doing something wrong. I did start to feel some shame, and I think we'll talk about more and more about this as this episode progresses. But I did feel some of that early on. Even, you know, as a young teenager, I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, they're talking about porn all the time, and if I even look at something wrong, is this porn? What is porn? And I did start to feel some of that shame at an early age.

Kristin Marie [00:23:30] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] Excellent. Christine, were you gonna say something? You gotta unmute. Just second. Kristin, you gotta. You have to unmute. Okay, I got you.

Kristin Marie [00:23:43] I remember feeling both. I remember being very aware of an awakening sexuality within me and embracing that and really enjoying it. So especially through expression of, like, music, I just really. It could feel like this was a part of being alive. And I remember really liking that. And then in the case of where shame would come into place for me was through kind of purity culture messages and ecclesiastical interviews, of worthiness interviews. And so there was a real conflict there for me of holding both awarenesses that this. This is bad, this is not good. This is going to ruin me. You know, this. These thoughts at this age or whatnot. And. But this feels a lot. I feel alive. Like, I feel like this is not harming me.

John Dehlin [00:24:41] How did those come out in the interviews?

Kristin Marie [00:24:45] Well, a lot of deferring to authority for what was okay, you know, as a young, like, what female, like, asking if what was going on within me was okay, and then having, you know, consequences follow. So that was kind of shaming and not promoting of my sexual development at all.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] So you had bishops that. You had bishops or leaders that would make you feel. That would give you consequences for the feelings you had?

Kristin Marie [00:25:18] Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] What types of consequences?

Kristin Marie [00:25:23] Don't take the sacrament, you know, don't go to the temple with your peers for thoughts. Well, yeah, and some behaviors.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] Okay.

Ryan Stott [00:25:32] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:34] Okay.

Paul Smith [00:25:35] Well, cool.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Michelle, why don't you. Why don't you talk to us about when things started going not so good?

Michelle Ross [00:25:47] Well for me? And it's. It might be different than for a lot of people. I, like I said I was a rule follower and I didn't have a problem, you know, like, for most of my 20s. It's not. It's not that I was keeping the strength of youth pamphlet guidelines. You know, I think that I was kind of a nuanced Mormon in a lot of ways and had my own idea of what was or wasn't okay, but.

Michelle Ross [00:26:14] But definitely wasn't crossing the line, you know, in having sex. And I think that for me, it really wasn't until I was about 30, maybe 30, 31, I had been dating somebody and we broke up and I was really sad about it. And I remember really is what started my whole faith transition because I started questioning everything. I really started to soul search and I started to think a lot about the, you know, the law of chastity and if it was necessary. And I started to feel like I couldn't understand, you know, here I am, I'm like a 30 year old and I'm still living like I'm 12 years old.

Michelle Ross [00:27:01] And so why does God really care about that? Does he really care if you care about somebody? If, you know, does he care if you have a sexual experience with them? And so anyway, that was the catalyst for me. It was really sexuality that led me out of the church, I think, and, you know, led me. And of course there's all these other things that came along the way, but that's when it went awry for me and I got to the point and, well, I had an interesting experience.

Michelle Ross [00:27:31] So after I had broken up with this guy, it was. It was a few months later and I remember feeling very much like I didn't know what was normal behavior for a guy, for a man. And I think, and this is kind of probably something we'll talk about later in the podcast, but I had no idea what was okay or normal behavior or acceptable or, you know, and I was talking to a friend of mine about this guy I had been dating, and I was like, oh, you know, like, he. He's really handsy and I don't know if that's normal. And I don't know, is he a deviant?

Michelle Ross [00:28:07] You know, like, I don't know. And so we're just like talking about it. And I kid you not, I feel like I had a really strong spiritual experience where, you know, this feeling came over me and I just felt. I just felt like at the time, I felt like it was God, you know, Now I think it was more just me. But, you know, I felt like God was saying, michelle, it's okay. That's totally normal. It's healthy. It's, you know, human. Human behavior. Like. And from that moment on, I never, I never questioned, I never doubted. I was never like, scared or, I don't know, I was never scared or afraid of, like, sexuality and men and their deviant behavior.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] So it's kind of a sexual empowerment, kind of a sexual awakening for you?

Michelle Ross [00:28:58] Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it was more just like I finally got to the point where I was like, you know, it's okay, like, if there is a God. And at that time, I still really believed in God. I don't think that he cares. I don't think that he cares if. If we are sexual. Like, I'm a responsible adult, you know, and these are people that I cared about. So. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] Okay. Kristen, are you comfortable talking about when kind of things started going wrong for you?

Kristin Marie [00:29:30] Yeah, sure. For me, it sounds a little similar. Well, not really, but kind of. We have similar ages, Michelle, with certain things. But for me, a real turning point where I started saying these messages are not good for functioning adults whatsoever was after a.

Kristin Marie [00:29:59] I had been through a sexual assault and I went to my bishop for some support and was put under discipline for that. And so. And that's something that is really. It was really. I hate saying it, but it's weird to say it. I still hesitate, but I'm glad it happened because it really. It woke me up to start going, this is not good. Not only is there not training for these men who are vast majority are such good people, but the sexuality messaging is so harmful in the culture at large, but specifically within Mormonism, and there's a lot of good, too. I really do believe that.

Kristin Marie [00:30:44] But we're leaving out some pretty fundamental pieces that are not equipping us to migrate really difficult subjects and topics. And I have no doubt whatsoever that that situation led me to where I'm at today in my profession. And I cannot be upset about that because I have the coolest job in the whole world.

Kristin Marie [00:31:06] But that. That was a. That was a moment where I had a fundamental shift in deferring to authority for what I needed to do and what was okay with my body.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] And so, yeah, so you had a sexual. You experienced a sexual assault and you were given discipline for it.

Kristin Marie [00:31:24] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:25] Wow.

Kristin Marie [00:31:26] How does that work in all the wrong ways?

John Dehlin [00:31:30] You know, what would make a bishop want to punish someone for.

Kristin Marie [00:31:35] Well, so rape culture, you know, it blames the victim. It says, why were you there? Why were you doing this? You shouldn't have been there. And so there were circumstances around it that he disagreed with, and so he felt like, you know, that needed to be addressed versus the blatant, come on, dude. Like, it just was. It was a real ball dropped big time, you know, and.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] Yeah. I'm so sorry. So sorry, Kristen.

Kristin Marie [00:32:02] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Really quickly, one of our listeners, Dallin, writes, my experience was that the people in my life who talked about sex the most was the church, a whole lot of punishment. For having thoughts on a subject that I kept hearing about every Sunday. Thank you, Dallin. That's a really good point. Ryan, when did, when did your church and sexuality start going wrong for you?

Ryan Stott [00:32:30] I might frame it a little bit differently. I'd say it was never really fully right. I mean, basically, like I was saying, we're pre programmed for these feelings. You know, it was never something that was fully comfortable. You kind of put up with it. You did your best. You kind of worked through it all in the name of, okay, this is for blessings and just to kind of paint a picture on perspective. If you're a believing single member of the church, you have two options. If you're obedient, I should say you've got, number one, you're not going to have sex. It's abstinence, that's your option.

Ryan Stott [00:33:03] Or number two, you could have eternal temple marriage. Those are the two options that you have on the, in front of you. And both of them are extreme and neither of them is easy to do. It's not easy to be completely abstinent. It's not easy to, you know, have clean thoughts all the time. And it's not easy to have temple merit. So you're kind of stuck in this in between. And I kind of want to paint a picture of, you know, kind of what Michelle was even alluding to, where it kind of puts you a little bit. You're. You're behind.

Ryan Stott [00:33:31] You're kind of an infant in that you don't know a lot of things. And I could talk about a lot of things here, but I just want to throw out a few examples. And I wish I wasn't making some of these things up, but because of these two extremes, you're kind of put in a position of wealth. I don't quite want to sin, but I still kind of want to, you know, push the limits and, you know, things that aren't mentioned in Strength of Youth. I mean, you've got LDS singles who are, you know, they're, they're looking at, well, is oral sex sex? They'll try and redefine sex.

Ryan Stott [00:34:03] Does oral count? You know, there's a saying, hey, oral is moral. Or, you know, they'll do things like instead of, okay, just kissing, we'll have what's called B aging, dry humping, you know, things like, okay, well, you know, body on body movement, things like that.

Ryan Stott [00:34:17] You know, kind of trying to redefine what sex is. Pushing the limits. And I got to make mention, too, there's, there's a funny video out there. If you haven't seen it yet, it's. It's worth watching from Garfunkel notes. You guys know which one I'm talking about, where they try to try to redefine what sex is. In fact, I'm trying to remember the dang name of it, but the idea is, hey, want to stay pure and clean, but at the same time, I want to please my man. So these two girls say, hey, we found the loophole, which is basically Jesus's loophole, is I can have anal sex, which isn't sex.

Ryan Stott [00:34:50] And so you get kind of these weird redefinitions. And that comes out of that struggle of just not being able to, you know, have, like I said, staying completely abstinent or eternal marriage. Those are both difficult things to accomplish.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] Yeah. And just so people know, Ryan isn't just making that up. When I was working for mit, I traveled around the world, and at an international conference I was attending, I met a non Mormon teacher from California who taught at a junior college. And for some reason she had several LDS students who attended her classes at the junior college. And she told me very specifically that she had conversations with these girls that basically said, I want to get married in the temple, so I allow my fiance to have anal sex with me so that they can be pleasured, so that we can be temple worthy. And this is coming from a totally external source. Now, Kristen, as a sex therapist, are there problems with this?

Kristin Marie [00:35:55] People are resourceful, I think. And so a lot of. So you're asking, is there a problem with just trying to. To do anything you can, to just not do that one thing?

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Maybe that. But also, can there be health if you're not educated? Can there be health risks with anal sex, for example?

Kristin Marie [00:36:13] Absolutely. Yeah. There's health risks in all sexual acts, really. And often people don't understand what can be contracted in what way. And also there's safer ways to practice or enjoy anal sex and other things. And so just not knowing those things or not feeling like you can educate yourself, because that would be like pre contemplating or whatever, you know, and so they're a lot of times just exposed to much higher risk of contracting something or harming themselves.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] I think that was Ryan's point, that the church delays. Okay, so the good news is most of you, or all of you made it to your mid-20s without, you know, pregnancy STIs. You know, a lot of the problems that parents want their kids to avoid. Sounds like the cost of that is what Ryan was saying, is that your development as A healthy adult in terms of sexuality can be really delayed. And the ignorance that comes from not feeling like you're allowed to learn about sexuality can leave you vulnerable to increased health risks and wellness risks and probably even assault risks, because there is no young women's lesson on consent, for example. Is that, is that probably true?

Kristin Marie [00:37:37] Yes, I think that's true.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] Paul, how about you? When did things start going awry for you?

Paul Smith [00:37:47] You know, I would say that I first started, you know, sort of realizing that maybe this mold wasn't ideal for me, probably in my mission, but I wouldn't allow myself to think that this wasn't. That any of that was an actual option.

Ryan Stott [00:38:11] So.

Paul Smith [00:38:12] So, I mean, I proceeded within, within the cookie cutter mold into marriage. And then, and then through that, you know, just forcing myself into that paradigm.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] Okay.

Paul Smith [00:38:26] Until after that, I started actually, you know, waking up, I guess, and learning.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] Yeah.

Paul Smith [00:38:32] Yeah.

Dating and Social Life as a Single Mormon

John Dehlin [00:38:33] Okay, let's talk just briefly about the single scene. You know what, can any of you have stories or share stories about just what it's like to date as a single Mormon or a post Mormon along the wasatch front or not along the wasatch front, but are there unhealthy practices or side effects to all these 20 to 30 somethings or more trying to live the law of chastity as adults other than what we've already talked about? Any stories? Michelle, why don't you start?

Michelle Ross [00:39:15] Yeah, I think, you know, I think everybody's affected differently and there, I think this affects some people more than it affects others, but there is this like desperation to get married because like Ryan was saying, you have two options. You have, you know, like you literally are expected to have zero sexual outlets or get married. I mean, those are kind of your two options. And so there's this desperation, I think, that is within the community where you just really want to get married so that you can experience sexuality so that you can have sex. Um, and, and I think, you know, there are the people

Michelle Ross [00:40:03] who are, you know, doing the crazy things like anal sex, but for the most part, when you're an active, studious, true believing Mormon, you know, you might be, you might be doing some things that are, maybe the brethren wouldn't approve of, but for the most part, you really don't have much of a sexual outlet. So. So, yeah, I think, I think that desperation is prevalent and pervasive and can be a problem.

Personal Costs of Having No Sexual Outlet

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Michelle, was there ever talk, was there ever. Could you describe what the impact was for you to not have a sexual outlet at one point or another? I mean, I would guess many Mormon leaders would say, good, don't have a sexual outlet until you're married. It's not good. But is there a downside? What was the downside for you in terms of not having an outlet?

Michelle Ross [00:40:58] I think, and once again, everyone's experience is going to be different. I think for me it was more embarrassment. Like it was more about. I didn't, I was a rule follower, so I was okay with following the rules, but I. There was definitely a sense of embarrassment. And I remember, and I don't know if this is kind of where you wanted to head, but I just remember being at a cousin's wedding and I was talking to two of her friends who were married and you know, my cousin's getting married in the temple and so they're talking about, they were talking about sex and they were talking about how, you know, I wonder how it's going for her.

Michelle Ross [00:41:36] And, and I just had nothing to contribute to the conversation and I kind of wanted to stay quiet because I may be mysterious and then maybe they wouldn't know, you know, maybe, maybe they might think that I had had sex. And so I just didn't really want them to know and so I wasn't really contributing to the conversation. So there's this sense of shame about it for sure. And it's not just outside of the church. I mean, outside of the church, when you're with non members, you know, they can't believe that you're waiting till marriage to have sex. But even within the church, when you're speaking to fellow members, there's shame associated with the fact that you are, you know, as sexually experienced as maybe a stereotypical or typical 17 year old, 18 year old, 15 year old, whatever it may be.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] Chelsea, one of our listeners writes, speaking to what Margi just mentioned as to the shame element, that was the most damaging aspect for myself and the one that we were most conscious of not to inflict on our children. I think the older I get and more aware I am of myself, the more I realize how the shame was such a part of my teen years, even if I didn't know the words for it then. So that. Margi, you're prescient. The shame, the shame aspect is coming up for a lot of people.

Michelle Ross [00:43:09] Unfortunate.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Okay, Kristin, for you, what was. Was there any personal side effect or consequence to not having a sexual outlet?

Ryan Stott [00:43:18] Well,

Kristin Marie [00:43:21] yeah, I think in just kind of going off of what Michelle just said, I completely agree with what she said and I think that the issue, at least for me, and I Know, for a lot of my friends and certainly a lot of my clients, it's this. This, like, underlying perception that you don't have legitimacy yet. Like, even if you have had experiences, but everyone thinks that you should be without, you know, any sexual experience. I mean, I've been at bridal showers or bachelorette parties or those types of things where some of my single friends know darn well they have stuff to contribute to their friends, to the conversation, but they won't say anything because they're not married.

Kristin Marie [00:44:07] They just don't feel like it's shame. You know, they don't feel like their opinions legitimate or that they'll be judged because they have had sex or whatnot or just whatever their experience might be. And so there's. I think I have seen that in a lot of domains and specifically around sexuality topics, but in just. In that there's this constant yearning to feel legitimate and legitimacy is only offered within marriage.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Got it. Ryan, how about you? Any. Any consequences of not having a sexual outlet for you that were negative? Ryan, you're frustration. Oh, go ahead, start over. Your microphone wasn't working, but it's working now. Go ahead.

Ryan Stott [00:44:51] You got me.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Okay.

Ryan Stott [00:44:52] Yeah, there's absolutely a lot of frustration. I mean, like I said, you're kind of put in this pressure cooker of, okay, you know, marriage is my way out of this. You know, you have to kind of graduate to that level. And you kind of alluded to it earlier how, you know, just experiences dating on the Wasatch front.

Michelle Ross [00:45:11] You.

Ryan Stott [00:45:12] You end up starting to, you know, the older you get, the more pressure you get. I mean, Brigham Young himself, you know, he said, hey, if you're 25 and you're not married, you are a menace to society. You start to, you know, you participate in a single scene. It really starts to wear on you where the older you get, you see your friends getting married. You know, they're moving off all of a sudden, hey, my friend's already been married and divorced and married again with kids, and I'm still single. Trying to, you know, push forward and progress. And it starts to wear on you a little bit of, hey, what is wrong with me?

Ryan Stott [00:45:43] What is. What am I doing in my life? And so, you know, if you're not kind of hitting kind of those blessings, you know, people get up, you know, and bear their testimony of, like, hey, I'm so thankful. I've been so blessed. And, you know, here the singles are looking back, I'm like, okay, my cursed. You know, I'm not getting these Blessings. What's the issue here?

Ryan Stott [00:46:04] So, yeah, there's absolutely a lot of frustration. And you know, you try to find outlets for that. And, you know, you, you try and look at dating opportunities and you start to question, well, you know, am I limiting? Who am I dating? You know, I, I kind of look back at my dating experiences where you kind of have that goal of, okay, I'm getting eternal marriage or nothing. That was the goal. And so I had some very quality attractive girls that I kind of rejected. And because they didn't fit kind of that mold, I'm like, okay, I don't see the long term there. So I rejected some opportunities.

Ryan Stott [00:46:37] And honestly, if I can go back in time, I kick my own ass at some of the opportunities that I missed just from that limited viewpoint that I had. So, yeah, to answer your question, it

John Dehlin [00:46:49] was very frustrating because they weren't active

Ryan Stott [00:46:51] Mormons because they didn't fit the prerequisites of eternal marriage. They weren't active Mormons. It was like, okay, I don't see the long term potential here. And the long term potential is all that I'm looking for it drastically limited who I dated. And so my dating pool got smaller and smaller. And we'll talk about this hopefully later, where now it's like the opposite, right? The pool is very big, the universe is big. So I think we'll talk about some of those things. But at the time it's like, man, it's so limited. And that's where the frustration really starts to mount.

Navigating Marriage Expectations and Pressure

John Dehlin [00:47:25] Paul, in just a second, I'm going to ask you about how this affects someone going into a marriage, these messages on sexuality. But before I do that, if somebody were to say, hey, plenty of single men and female Mormons along the Wasatch front, what's wrong with you guys? Why couldn't you just get married? What are just some blatant responses to people who would just say, what's wrong with you? Everyone else seems to getting married. Why not you? I know that's deeply offensive language, but I want to just hit head on people's questions about, like, what's. So what's the big deal? Why has it been so hard?

Michelle Ross [00:48:01] Well, it has. It's not always hard for everybody. Right? So. So I think just because we're not married yet doesn't mean that it's hard. It just means we haven't either been in a place to get married or we haven't found the right person and especially wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] Right.

Michelle Ross [00:48:18] Or haven't wanted to. You know, I know through my 20s, like that wasn't really something that I wanted. And you know, I think everybody has their different stages of life that they or things that they want to experience in life. There's definitely a story in Utah and you know, it's, you get married young, you have three or four kids by the time you're 30.

Michelle Ross [00:48:41] Not everybody was meant to live that story and to fit that mold. Maybe there is something wrong with us. Maybe we need to work through some things. You know, maybe there's something wrong with everybody who gets married at 21 and they're just going to work through it in a different way. So there's plenty of opportunity. I actually think that within the church and without you could, you know, if you're active Mormon, there were opportunities probably for all of us to get married if, if that was all we were really looking for was to get married. But you don't always find somebody that you want to marry, you know.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] So, Kristen, what would your answer be to my offensive question?

Kristin Marie [00:49:24] It's just so freaking pathologizing, right? Like, like y' all are what wrong with you? And I know you're not saying this, but that is such a common question, you know, why aren't you married? You know, you went to two BYU institutions. Why aren't you married? You know, like, I think there's just within the culture there's such a heavy laden just pressure that once you get married, you've made it and if you're not, then something must be wrong with you when in actuality the dating system seen especially. I know this is very Utah centric, Gina, but you know, this is the Wasatch front story. That's largely my experiences too.

Kristin Marie [00:50:05] But it is so complicated with why one might not be married and why one might be. And there's a lot of cultural things there too that are kind of entertaining, but it's just really, really complicated. And not everybody gets married at 21 and not everyone wants to, like Michelle said.

John Dehlin [00:50:28] Kristin, I'm going to put you on the spot here. Margi, I think we've talked about this. Aren't there data that suggests that it's not necessarily beneficial to get married early? Are you aware of research that suggests benefits of waiting even into your early 30s to get married for marriage?

Kristin Marie [00:50:48] I think, yeah, yeah. I don't know the exact research right now, you know, but there's also, you know, increasing research right now that early sexual experiences contributes specifically to women like wanted experiences, helps develop further sexual well being, which affects heavily global well being of the woman. And so that's just. They're producing research over and over and over now showing that.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:16] Which makes sense to me, actually, because as you're talking, I'm actually relating to a lot of the things that you're saying, because even Having married at 22, I came in with zero knowledge of my own sexual being. I had nothing to contribute, you know.

Michelle Ross [00:51:35] No.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:35] And to me, that you contribute very straightforward things to contribute. But I mean, as with regard to me and helping and to really like that self knowledge and self awareness, I just feel like, you know, it was. And not only that, but also to have it all switch on a dime where it's inappropriate. Not don't entertain it, don't. And then, bam, you've got the golden ticket. Go to it. And I just think psychologically it's problematic on a number of levels how we talk about and how we approach sexuality for those that even follow the model. Those that follow the model, oftentimes there's a kickback later.

Kristin Marie [00:52:18] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:19] Anyway.

Kristin Marie [00:52:20] Absolutely. I talk about. It's like honeymoon trauma. Right. You know, with my clients, like, they really. And I laugh, but it's not funny. You know, they really have some consequences from it being a completely different ballgame than they were ever even thinking or prepared for. Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] So really quickly, Michelle writes, I grew up in a different type of Christian church, and the experiences of me and my peers were almost identical to your panelists. So it's fun to have a never Mormon validate that this, that we're not alone in our sexual dysfunction as Mormons. Now, Paul, I don't want to assume that there were problems, you know, with your, with your former wife in terms of sexuality, but. But what? Can you talk about how getting married, especially in terms of how prepared you were for sexuality, isn't necessarily the Holy Grail or utopia. Once you actually do dive into that marriage, do you feel like you were sexually prepared for a healthy, happy marriage or were there issues that you're comfortable talking about? I know it's a private, personal question.

Paul Smith [00:53:28] Sure, yeah. I mean, I can speak in generalities. I mean, you know, when you get married at 23, you don't really need a lot to have fun. I mean, you're 23 years old,

Ryan Stott [00:53:46] so

Paul Smith [00:53:47] you know, that that satisfies things for a while. But then, but you're a kid, though. I mean, that's the bottom line. And, and I was a kid and, and, you know, just emotionally and immature and sexually, zero experience. And, you know, that ultimately over the course of, you know, time leads to. Leads to Issues?

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Yeah. One, you know, one.

Ryan Stott [00:54:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] I mean, we think. And this is the way, you know, I think Margi and I both came to our marriage having never really had any sexual experimentation and certainly as virgins. And I guess I wonder if there's a benefit to having some experience prior to marriage. And I can think of sort of two possibilities. One is you're just. You bring more sexual skill to the marriage that then can help make the sex life in the marriage more enjoyable and more satisfying. But the other is, what if you go into marriage just sort of like wondering what you missed out on and wondering what you could have had and feeling like you didn't actually get to healthily explore?

John Dehlin [00:55:09] I imagine that that could have its own set of challenges or issues, both, because you maybe are. Aren't compatible with who you're married to because you have no idea of knowing what you're compatible with or who you're compatible with or what your compatibilities are. And then also just this idea of arrested development where you're, where you're like, huh, what did I miss out on? How could things have been different? And if at some point that kind of haunts you with this, with this curiosity, this fascination about sexuality outside of marriage because you didn't get enough of sort of exploration in the normal formative years, does anybody have anything to say about that or am I just projecting my own stuff?

Ryan Stott [00:55:54] I'll just add on your comment of just that, sexual compatibility. I remember when I, when I was a missionary, here I am 19 years old, we had an older woman. She, I mean, it's probably like 80 years old, non member, but I remember her specifically saying, you know, you guys haven't had sex and you're planning on not having sex until you get married. I can't think of a crazier thing. And that stuck in my head for years. In fact, it still rings to me. And she specifically said, how can you marry somebody if you don't even know you're sexually compatible? And at the time I didn't even know what that meant.

Ryan Stott [00:56:30] It's like, okay, well, you know, I'm a virgin, missionary. I don't even know what sexual compatibility means. I'm trying to visualize in my head, well, you know, does that, I mean, personality, physically, you know, you know, what, what we like, don't like. It was just such a foreign world to me. So, yeah, it's funny you mentioned that, where, you know, kind of going back and remembering the times of like, you know, from the virgin mindset, you don't know what you don't know and in some ways, you know, can hold you back.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] I love it. Hey, our buddy Heath is giving us a nice compliment, panelists. He says kudos to the panelists for so bravely discussing this issue. I fear that top church leaders have never heard anything so frank. They're used to youth and young adults telling them what they want to hear, the confession, etcetera, Rather than the honest yearnings and concerns. Great job, guys and gals. Love and respect as a parent of teens. Thank you. So kudos from Heath. Thanks, Heath. Good.

Ryan Stott [00:57:27] Good to hear from you.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] Okay, so. Yeah, please.

Paul Smith [00:57:32] You know, Paul, I think the easiest way for me to probably, since I think I was the only one that's that was married and now out and single, the easiest way for me to explain it or describe it is that I had zero sexual compatibility issues with my ex wife. The chemistry was great and yet I still acted out. And I'll just leave it at that. But there were, in generality, they still acted out. That wouldn't happen, I don't think if I, you know, now, if I chose to get married, because you go in with your eyes wide open and you, you, you know, you do the things that you should do in any normal relationship or I have done and, and then you're, you know, it's easier to have a happier, happier relationship that way.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] So are you, are you kind of saying that sometimes dissatisfaction, sexual dissatisfaction in a marriage or incompatibility can be the result of just not entering the marriage sexually mature? Is that what you're saying?

Ryan Stott [00:58:33] Yes.

Paul Smith [00:58:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] The sexual immaturity leads to the risk of acting out.

Paul Smith [00:58:38] Right. It doesn't have to be. Oh, you know, it doesn't have to be a sexual compatibility issue. At least in my case.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] It can just be immaturity.

Paul Smith [00:58:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:46] It kind of reminds me. Is it Erickson, the stages where he talks about things you have to resolve at certain kind of times? And sometimes it reminds me of that. Oftentimes that there's like a developmental time for these things and if they're not addressed or if they're put to sleep or kind of latent, then oftentimes they reappear later for you to sort of handle later. And it can feel quite blindsiding and it is something that we see, you know, quite a bit.

Defining Healthy Sexuality After Leaving the Church

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 716

John Dehlin [00:00:28] All right, so let's change the subject now.

Michelle Ross [00:00:31] So

John Dehlin [00:00:34] let's talk, let's just say whether or not you're a believer. Let's not put it in terms of non believing or believing. Let's talk about what happens when you start to engage healthy sexuality as a single person. What does that look like? Like, I can imagine either someone's newly divorced and they're petrified about, about, like, how do I date now? I can have sex with whoever I want, but I don't want to be responsible, unsafe. How do I even go about it? I can think of a 19 year old who, let's just say, no longer believes in the church. And she's just like. Or he's like, hey, okay, I don't believe in this law of chastity anymore, but I don't want to hurt myself or go crazy.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] How does one begin healthy sexuality if they've been raised as a Mormon on the strength of the youth pamphlet? What's step one? Who wants to give us step one?

Michelle Ross [00:01:29] That's a great question.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Michelle.

Michelle Ross [00:01:34] I'll give step one. I think step one is making the decision on your own. For me, it was a very, very thoughtful decision where I think, you know, maybe when you're in your teens or your early 20s, it's less thoughtful. It's just kind of something that you've got to do or, you know, maybe as non members or, you know, it's just, it's something that, you know, you do maybe when you're drunk or just because that's what people do or whatever the case may be. I think especially for post Mormons or people transitioning out of the church, and I would hope for everybody everywhere that it's more of a thoughtful decision because when, when you make the decision and you know, you choose to have those experiences with people that you, one, feel safe with and two, feel like, you know, I don't know, it's not just, I don't know, I don't want to generalize.

Michelle Ross [00:02:39] I don't want to say that everyone should have the same kind of sexual experience. But I do think that the first step is really thinking about it, figuring out if it's okay for you, what is okay for you, if it's something that you really want and then move forward from there.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] So start. And Margi, I think you mentioned this in the show notes, kind of doing a dive on your values. What are your values? And by the way, I think as religious people and sometimes as Mormons, we've really Corrupted the term values. We think values. Oh. To have values means I don't drink alcohol. To have values means I don't smoke pot or steal. To have values means I'm not a liar. That's actually a real unfortunate corruption of the word value. The word value means, what do I value in my life? What do I want in my life? What do I want my life to stand for? And in that context of the meaning of the word value, if we're talking about sexuality, it's do I value myself as a sexual being? What types of sexual expressions are important to me?

Kristin Marie [00:03:50] What does healthy sexuality for me look like? What is intimacy to me?

John Dehlin [00:03:55] What is intimacy? What is emotional intimacy as well as physical intimacy? And even what do I. You know, this is something that I've had to struggle with for so many years because. Because we were taught not to even have sexual thoughts, women became sexual objects in my mind. They were objects to look at, to derive sort of like visual satisfaction. And I'm not thrilled about that. I'm not proud of that. But women became objectified to me. And so when I was lonely or sad as a single person, I would make out with a girl because it would make me feel better. And all of a sudden.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] And I did not process this until after I was married and had to do my own work. But women were sometimes just objects that brought me pleasure. And I think that that was a problem. And it became something that was really helpful to me as I thought about my own values relating to being faithful to Margi.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] It's okay, there's an attractive woman, but do I value my wife? Do I value my commitment to her? And this woman, whether I was single or not, if I were to just want to go have sex with her and then just bail, am I treating her. Do I value treating that woman like a human being, that her feelings matter, that who she is matters? Now, there may be women where that. That would be a fine type of relationship, but in many cases, I think I wasn't concerned about the other person. I was concerned about just my own gratification. And so one possible value to consider is, do you value the inherent worth of the people that might be your sexual partner?

John Dehlin [00:05:51] And what does it mean to treat another person with. With respect as it relates to sexuality? So that was kind of a rant. But have any of you had to develop your own sense of values as it relates to sexuality? And if so, can you share some of your values that inform your sexuality?

Kristin Marie [00:06:12] Can I say something really quick, please? So I don't want to repeat a little bit of what Natasha and I talked about, but she listed that those six principles for healthy sexuality and, and I might just list them really quick and then give my two cents on them. The six principles, and this is by Doug Brown Harvey and Michael Vigorito.

Kristin Marie [00:06:31] But number one is consensual, two non exploitative, three protective against HIV, STIs and unplanned pregnancy, four shared values, five honest and six, mutually pleasurable. I think that these are really good baseline, which of course people can say no. I don't really think it needs to be mutually pleasurable. That's up to them. But these are like interesting, like places to start. What do I think about these? How will I negotiate between these?

Kristin Marie [00:07:02] Do I want to date people that feel similarly about all of these or some of these? Maybe these can be areas to negotiate and talk more about when we're getting to know each other, those types of things. So did I segue.

Michelle Ross [00:07:16] That was great.

Kristin Marie [00:07:17] I'm glad you mentioned it.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] I love those, Kristen. And I think I want to actually go through each one with the panel and talk about how they apply those principles, if they apply them in their own sex lives or sexuality. But let me first ask one of my sort of obvious and blunt, semi offensive questions. Is it okay to have sex outside of marriage? The church has taught us it's wrong and it's evil. Is there an argument for the possibility that non, you know, extramarital sex is actually healthy for a developing human? Can any of you? How? I mean, the law of chastity says no. The prophets of God have said no. Whether or not you believe in that, how could you make an argument that that's not so? And what are you basing it on?

Kristin Marie [00:08:08] Are you asking me?

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Yeah, Kristen.

Kristin Marie [00:08:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] And then others. And then others.

Kristin Marie [00:08:12] Okay. Well, I usually, I'll usually break these up into teeny topics, but it's not long. So there's the spiritual consequences for those that might consider, you know, breaking the law of chastity going outside of marriage. Like, there's that spiritual domain. There's actual physical risks that can happen by being sexually active with, within marriage or without. Like, that can certainly take place. So anytime I hear is it okay, like, in what way? Is what I usually am asking, is it? Because the blanket answer that I have is it just depends on the person, you know, so if they are practicing believing LDs, then it's probably going to have, they're probably going to have some consequences.

Kristin Marie [00:08:55] Down here in Orem, I work with a lot of BYU Students or BYU employees, there are consequences to potentially their academics. They're not only just spiritual. Right. So it just depends on the person as to whether or not it's okay in their mind to go outside of what, I guess, law of chastity or violating covenants or whatnot, promises they've made. That's a spiel. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] So there are risks.

Kristin Marie [00:09:22] Yeah. But there are risks at nought as well. There are risks at stunting development. There are risks at. Like Ryan was saying, I think he nailed a really, really good topic that's largely not talked about because we don't talk about single people, but of missed opportunities because there's this, like, along the Wasatch front. I don't know if any of you others have heard this, but the bbd, the bigger, better deal. Like, a lot of people are passing up all other, like, really great potential opportunities, like dating opportunities, because there's this kind of perfectionism also in dating. Right. That's not the only reason people aren't married. I don't want it to become about that. But there's a phenomenon of just this. Just there's something better coming along. Right?

Kristin Marie [00:10:10] Yeah.

Kristin Marie [00:10:11] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Okay, thank you.

Kristin Marie [00:10:14] I also, that made me think, because at 21 and 22, if you're taking on kind of the structure of what oftentimes you're hearing about what you should be looking for, I think by the time you hit 30, that can feel very different or a little less applicable to you. So the things you value at 30 in a relationship oftentimes look very different than what you would have gone for when you were 21 or 22?

Kristin Marie [00:10:39] Absolutely.

Kristin Marie [00:10:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] Okay, others. Are any of you comfortable being an advocate for single sexuality to telling why it's okay, why it's beneficial?

Ryan Stott [00:10:52] Okay, all. But, yeah, tying it back to values. My short answer is, yes, it can be good. But like Kristin said, you know, it kind of depends on the person. And if I was going to talk to a friend right now, going through the same trends that I kind of went through being, you know, single, kind of getting into some new things, it's kind of the same advice I'd give to anybody going through any transition, sexual or religious or whatever. It's wherever you land, land softly, be careful how you do it and try and, you know, do it in a way that you're being. You're able to identify those values.

Ryan Stott [00:11:29] One interesting thing is, you know, start to get into, okay, well, I'm no longer confined by your religious restrictions. I view is very large. Kristen and Natasha talked about that in the last episodes. And by the way, I'll put a plug for the last episode. If you don't realize this is a series on sexuality. They've talked about that heavily. I mean, there's fetishes. There are different ways to look at sex. You know, there's no partners, if you can imagine it. It's likely been tried, it's likely been enjoyed. So there are so many things out there on the table that, you know, you have to kind of like, say, okay, well, what is it that I do want and don't want?

Ryan Stott [00:12:07] Sex. You know, kind of sleeping around or experimenting, it can be a good thing. You can kind of do it in a healthy way. Of, hey, you know, I'm finding doing that with respect with my partner, but also, as you know, it can be an experience where if and right it, you can learn, you can grow, you can feel a lot of. Of emotions I wouldn't have. So as long as you're kind of careful and comfortable how you do it, it can be a very healthy thing.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Okay. And Ryan, I think you're referencing our discussion on understanding your own sexual template and what your erotic template is and knowing what the types of things that you. That kind of make you happy, that please you, that turn you on versus don't. Is that right, Ryan?

Ryan Stott [00:12:53] Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, looking at the limitations of the church, I mean, they're very specific on what kind of are you wearing, you know, how you're having sex. You know, there's something that are kind of border sex. Those things are questionable. It's very limiting. And all of a sudden you start to progress. You're like, okay, I no longer have those limits. Where do I go? The menus vary.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] Got it. Okay. Michelle, what would you say to this question? Are you even comfortable talking to it?

Michelle Ross [00:13:25] Yeah, I will speak to it. It's funny, right before I started this podcast, my mom called me and she's kind of post Mormon group, and she was like, michelle, why didn't you tell me you were doing this podcast? And I'm like. Because I was like, don't tune into this.

Michelle Ross [00:13:43] Listen to it later. Anyway, I probably have family listening right now, so we'll see. I was promising myself not to be too candid, but I will say that I do adv for sex before marriage. And I. I also say that if you're not comfortable with it, then that's also fine. You know, there shouldn't be shame one way or the other, whether you choose to Wait until marriage or not.

Michelle Ross [00:14:10] This panel is obviously different. If you had a panel of active, true believing Mormons, then they would probably say, you know, they don't support it. I think for me, I, I think it's actually really important just so to understand your sexual compatibility with that person.

Michelle Ross [00:14:31] But also, you know, I have a lot of friends who get married and there's a lot of sexual dysfunction that happens. You know, they've gotten married and either their expectations were too high or they have no idea how to communicate about sex. I think, I actually think more than anything that is one of the biggest problems is just the inability to communicate about sex.

Michelle Ross [00:14:59] And if you can't do that, I mean, whether you're both inexperienced or not, it's going to be a rough, a rough road, you know. So in my mind, I think that it's you figuring out what works for you, what's comfortable for you is a really good thing.

Michelle Ross [00:15:22] Understanding what it means to be sexually compatible with somebody, understanding how to communicate a little bit. I, you know, I think it actually is a very positive and human thing. And I, and I also think that what happens is, you know, I remember back when I was still like 19, I was very active Mormon, had a friend who was 25 and she had never kissed somebody. And she at that point was like, well, I'm not going to kiss anybody until I'm, you know, across the altar or until I find the person I'm going to marry. I'm going to wait. And kissing had become this huge, huge deal to her.

Michelle Ross [00:16:05] And I'm not equating sex with kissing, but I kind of am, because I think what happens is you just blow it up in your mind and it becomes this, this thing that is really unattainable. So then when you actually have sex, it's not at all what you expected or wanted or thought it was going to be. And so I think it can be a really healthy thing to experience that before you go into a committed, lifelong relationship.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] I love that. But let me, let me push a little bit further because, and maybe you guys, maybe because of our cultural taboos, nobody is quite, I mean, Michelle, you just did it. But even what you just said, Michelle, you said it's good to be sexually active as a single person because it prepares you for marriage. And I want to ask even a more basic question. Are you happier and healthier as an adult human when you're sexually active, whether or not you end up getting married? Okay, Michelle, how, how's that possible? They say wickedness, they say Wickedness never was happy.

Michelle Ross [00:17:17] Well, and that's the problem is apparently we don't think it's wicked, you know,

John Dehlin [00:17:22] so how are you happier and healthier? How can that be that you're actually happier and healthier?

Michelle Ross [00:17:28] It's just, it's very. It's the human. It's the human condition. You know, we were made to procreate. We. Biologically, that's how it is. And I also think that it breaks down emotional barriers that maybe walls that you've built. I think that it can help you just be more open. And I don't know, it just. There's so many. There's so many reasons to experience that. And like I said, I don't want to say that everyone needs to. I don't want to say that because there are people out there who won't experience or can't or don't want to. But I do want to say that if it's an option for you, it is a positive thing in a lot of ways. Just for your mental health, your emotional health, I hear it makes your hair shinier, your skin clearer, lots of benefits.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] All right, Paul, how would you answer that question?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:33] Well, just to put my opinion on that last question, if you're not, if you don't have sex while you're dating and then you get married, that you've committed dating malpractice, in my opinion. But if, yeah, we're. I think we're sexual beings and we just, I mean, every one of us is different, but we probably all, most of us have that one thing in common. And if you're someone that, I mean, I think someone might need it more,

Ryan Stott [00:19:04] someone might need it less, but everyone

Margi Dehlin [00:19:05] needs it and it's healthy and it's, you know, it's. If we know that it's not bad, we know that it's not a sin

Ryan Stott [00:19:12] because the Church exalts it above all else.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] What do you mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:17] Well, the Church says that you. The only way to achieve exaltation is through. Is through marriage, eternal marriage. So we know that it's a beautiful thing. They're just putting. They're just labeling a sin before you

Ryan Stott [00:19:28] enter into one of their temples.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:30] That's to get their 10%. Maybe that's a little too harsh, but, but, you know, it's, it's, it's. We know that it's not bad because the church says it's not bad. They've just defined the context. Time to take that back.

Why Sexual Activity as a Single Person Can Be Healthy

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Okay, Kristen, why can being sexually active as a single person actually be healthy?

Kristin Marie [00:19:51] Well, we. Yes, our bodies are. I think a few people have said so far we are programmed to reproduce, so to speak. But I think it's even more integral than that. I think we are relational beings, you know, and intimacy, sexual intimacy is some of the.

Kristin Marie [00:20:09] I think it's in most of our DNA. Like Paul said, it's a spectrum for each person. Very rare. When someone doesn't want that at all. That's very, very. That's not. That's a pretty rare case. Does happen. But, yeah, we're relational beings. We're not meant to be on an island by ourselves. And to be devoid of touch and intimate touch and to feel that if you do want it, that's bad, and that you're sinning and going to not have blessings in the future creates quite a disconnect between something that is integral, an integral part of who we are as humans.

Kristin Marie [00:20:47] So, yeah, I think that that's what I believe can come at a cost if somebody just completely thinks that that should not be an active part of their life.

John Dehlin [00:20:58] Got it. A lot of the listeners are saying that they love that list that you read. Kristen and Amy mentioned that we're going to be including that in the show notes. But let's go through it. Let's talk about how to put into practice each of the principles. So what I'm going to do is, Kristen, I'm going to have you read each one. But after you read each one, I want panelists to jump in and say how that principle has applied to them in their sex lives as single people. So, Kristin, read number one, please.

Kristin Marie [00:21:29] Number one should always be number one. Consensual. Mutually consensual. So both people want to play.

Consent, Communication, and Shared Values in Relationships

John Dehlin [00:21:39] All right, so who wants to talk about how they. How they. How consent has played into their relationships?

Ryan Stott [00:21:46] I'll take this one as kind of. I've never been married. And so from somebody who jumped the gap from, okay, being kind of a, you know, virgin to, you know, kind of jump that gap and to start dating and experimenting sexually.

Ryan Stott [00:22:01] When I looked at marriage or sex in, you know, before I'd done it, I always thought, okay, well, great, I'm gonna do when I'm married. Obviously, she's interested. Obviously, there's some commitment here, and there's. There's an environment where, you know, we're. We're both expecting that.

Ryan Stott [00:22:18] So. So consent was something you have to kind of learn over time. And I mean, it could probably be its own separate podcast in and of itself, but it is something to kind of. To highlight here. Where again, this is the male perspective. You know, if you're starting to pursue a female and you know, you kind of see, okay, well, you know, things are progressing, things are escalating.

Ryan Stott [00:22:41] You have to be sure you're reading the cues, body language, you're not overstepping your bounds. If she's feeling any discomfort and whether she communicates that verbally or with her body language at all, stop. I mean, that's the answer you do not want.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Ryan, we're having a bit of technical difficulties with your video. So I'm going to hop over to Kristen and see if your videos issues can get resolved. Kristin, what do you like about Ryan is about what Ryan's saying and how would you extend it?

Kristin Marie [00:23:17] I think that it's great. What I heard him saying there at the end, and I think that's what I heard him saying, was if you are picking up on nonverbal cues, certainly verbal cues, but even nonverbal, that someone's uncomfortable, check in with them is what I would extend that, you know, definitely, you know, slow things down, but check in with them because especially if you are both navigating this new terrain, certainly one is this is an opportunity for you to both get really good at negotiating what sounds good, what sounds fun, at least for right then it might change in five minutes. That's sexuality, that's okay.

Kristin Marie [00:23:56] But to continually check in with each other and hopefully learn the style that they have of communicating. I do know a lot of, I mean as women in the church, we were really socialized to defer to someone else for what's okay and to also take care of others feelings, it might be really hard for. I don't want to overgeneralize, but I'll do it anyway. For a woman to start using her voice in really, really vulnerable situations, like sexual, sexual situations. And so if you're with someone, it might, it might be nice to encourage them. Hey, I do want to hear where you're at with what's going on. Like, that's welcome.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Michelle, what does consent meant to you and your sex life from a practical standpoint? How do you navigate consent?

Michelle Ross [00:24:49] You know, I, this is a tough one for me to answer because I don't feel like this has ever really been a problem maybe or an issue.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] I think for you it's been pretty obvious when both were interested in what you were interested in. It was just kind of natural.

Michelle Ross [00:25:06] Yeah. And I think, and maybe this is, and maybe I'm speaking stereotypically here, but I, I do feel like typically it's the, like the woman who has to give consent. I don't know. Am I being stereotypical here?

Kristin Marie [00:25:23] Women are the gatekeepers. Yeah, yeah, but that's a, That's a.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] That's a myth, right? That's not. That's not a fair burden to put on women. Right?

Kristin Marie [00:25:32] Yeah, we want to get away from that. But it still feels heavily like in the culture, we're allowing this to happen.

Michelle Ross [00:25:39] Right, right, right. It definitely feels that way. So, you know, I feel like for the most part, I mean, I've only had good experiences in terms of, like, it's not just about that initial experience. It's about, you know, like, oh, are you feeling like it today or are you feeling like it's, you know, I don't know, tonight or in the morning or whatever, you know, whatever it is. Like you still. There's always like. It's constant consent. So it's not just your consent one time and then it's. That's how it is forever. It's kind of a constant dance going back and forth and figuring it all out with the person you're with, you know?

John Dehlin [00:26:27] Okay.

Kristin Marie [00:26:28] It's a great point.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] I remember reading a sign at a university about what consent is. And I'm not going to remember all the points, but one of the things I remember reading is that consent is sober, meaning that if someone is drunk, they cannot, you know, they can't. That doesn't constitute consent. Consent is conscious. Consent is verbal or explicit. I don't know if that's always true, but I think I get what these cues were sort of getting at, which is err on the side of caution. And, you know, one thing I always hear is no means no. And that's what no means, not no means yes. Paul, how has consent played into your relationships?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:20] Well, very heavily. But I mean, I can't. I've tried in the few relationships that I've had since my marriage to just be. I think my biggest value has just been to take it back to that. Also just been trying to communicate and trying to be open and always trying to see where the other person is and reciprocating. And I think as long as there's just constant communication and there's never really any reason not for there not to be, the relationship, however it progresses, if it progresses to whatever stage it progresses, will be a healthy one, at least in my experience.

John Dehlin [00:28:01] Love it. Okay, Kristen, what's number two?

Kristin Marie [00:28:06] Number two is non exploitative.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Okay. What do you think that means? Kristen,

Kristin Marie [00:28:14] Stay the heck away from being coercive. Or, you know, making guilty people, making them feel like they. Their consent is not really that, you know, or manipulative.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] Okay, so you don't coerce or pressure.

Kristin Marie [00:28:31] It's not very nice.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Ryan, Paul, or Michelle, do any of you have any experiences you want to share about how coercion is not a good thing?

Ryan Stott [00:28:43] Yeah, and this is Ryan. Hopefully my Internet connection apparently is bad, so hopefully it's a little bit more stable now. So I apologize for that. But, yeah, I mean, as far as exploitative or coercive, you definitely don't want to kind of take advantage or manipulate or kind of use someone for your own gain. You know, if you're going to, you know, have a sexual partner, you want there to be kind of mutual benefit, mutual value in doing so. And I just say watch your limits on that.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] So it's about mutual pleasure, and I think that that actually leads in. There's going to be one later on about that. Michelle or Paul, anything else you guys want to mention about coercion or exploitation? No, not Michelle. Paul.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:20] I mean, I think it's something that

Ryan Stott [00:29:23] maybe,

Margi Dehlin [00:29:27] I mean, depending on where you are, where your status is, you know, it might be something that

Ryan Stott [00:29:34] you're.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:36] I could see myself in my former Mormon self having maybe a bigger issue with that. So I don't know, but I don't really know how to address it. I mean, I just think that maybe with all. With all of the priesthood talk and all the male superiority talk inside the church, that maybe that's an issue. Navigating dating life, maybe subconsciously for us.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] I don't know, you're theorizing that maybe a patriarchal structure can set men up to be coercive and manipulative and. Kristen's shaking, nodding her head. Kristen, why are you nodding your head?

Kristin Marie [00:30:11] Oh, I just. I think that's a strong theory.

Kristin Marie [00:30:14] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] Yeah.

Kristin Marie [00:30:15] You know, especially when, I mean, anecdotally, I've heard quite a few stories of teenage boys kind of having this. These discussions that she didn't want it, but I made her want it, you know, I mean, that's not necessarily from the church, you know, but that's still. We're all existing in a patriarchal culture right now anyway, you know, and so just that women don't have their own autonomy, so sexual autonomy, that men need to bring them into it or introduce them to it. So if she's showing hesitancy, you just need to keep trying, you know, that's really dangerous. Really, really, really unhealthy.

Michelle Ross [00:30:52] Yeah. And can I just add to that, I did think of something. I feel like I want everyone listening who maybe is exploring sexuality. And especially because this is new to a lot of people who are kind of transitioning out of the church or maybe kind of exploring their sexuality within in the church or whatever it may be.

Michelle Ross [00:31:17] There's never a point that you can't say no. You know, so just because you're making out and, you know, maybe some clothes coming off or whatever, if you at any point start feeling uncomfortable, there's never a point that you need to feel in your mind, like, oh, well, I've already gone this far, so, you know, he or she is going to be mad at me if. If I don't, even though I'm not really feeling comfortable anymore.

Michelle Ross [00:31:42] You know, there's never a point where you can't say, you know, I am uncomfortable now and I. I'm not okay with this anymore, or maybe we should cool it and, you know, talk tomorrow or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] So you can say no at any time.

Michelle Ross [00:32:00] Yeah.

Sexual Health, STI Testing, and Safe Practices

John Dehlin [00:32:01] All right. Okay, Kristin, what's the next one?

Kristin Marie [00:32:04] Protective against HIV, STIs, and unplanned pregnancy.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] Okay, Kristin, as a sex therapist, can you give us a brief primer on how to do these things?

Kristin Marie [00:32:16] Yeah, I think. Well, the first thing going through my mind that happens quite a bit is not negotiating condom use or, you know, who brings a condom. Can you ask them, is it rude to say, will you go get a condom or are you okay if I use one? And if people are kind of pushing back or acting awkward, that's not very nice, unhealthy sexual behavior to not agree to have protected sex.

Kristin Marie [00:32:49] Right.

Kristin Marie [00:32:49] So. Yes. What was your question? Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] So, yeah, that's. That's kind of a big deal.

Kristin Marie [00:32:55] It's a really big deal.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] So. So is there a place for. I mean, should sex always be protected as. As a single sexual person, or mostly, like, are there. How do we navigate that? What? You know, I'm assuming that not everyone would. Would use a condom because maybe it doesn't feel good, or maybe it's not convenient, or maybe they don't trust that it'll do the job or whatever. Why isn't it just natural for everyone to wear a condom? And is there any ever a place for not wearing it? And if so, how do you navigate that?

Kristin Marie [00:33:33] Those were a lot of questions. Yeah, I think that it's okay to do whatever you want to do as long as you're upfront with the person. I mean, it's not up to me to say you shouldn't be Having that risky sex, that's up to them. But they better be communicating that with their partner. You know, there are quite a few people that feel just fine as long as they are constantly getting their checks and they know their partner, they trust their partner has been had a recent STI screen and whatnot. And then, I mean, that's up to them. That's not up to me. But as long as they're not lying and, or manipulating their partner about their status and whatnot.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:19] Can I ask a question about that, John?

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Please?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:22] What's your opinion on asking to see an STI or STD test? Anybody?

Kristin Marie [00:34:32] That's pretty, it's pretty common nowadays to ask and I've had a lot of people ask me that. Clients in particular, you know, where we'll talk about safety. As safe as you can be in engaging in sexuality with someone else. Sexual experiences. And outside of this culture that, I mean, people are there like they are saying, you know, if, I mean, they have apps nowadays, you can upload your. The results, you know, and those types of things. I mean, I think that there's a lot of unsafe sexual behavior going on out there. Risky, certainly, but there's also a lot of things that are just common just now just to ask when the last test was. I mean, even if you're planning on having protection or using a condom or whatnot, still good practice to ask.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] Is that even reliable to be asking people about their most recent test? They can just lie. They could have had some sort of sexual, you know, interaction between the last test and now. Like, man, it just seems like a really fraught world. It almost, it almost just thinking about, like, could I get infected? Do I have to ask for this? It almost just makes me feel like, oh my gosh, maybe the church was right. This is way too complicated and fraught to even mess with all this stuff. Can it be managed in a, in a reasonable way?

Kristin Marie [00:36:01] Absolutely. Yeah, I think, I mean, I mean, it's just, it's. There's as much risk to that that someone can lie as there is with just dating them in general. Right. But, but I think it's important for that to be like having conversations like that. That's a really great, like heads up for how the relationship's gonna go. I mean, that's pretty vulnerable. You're practicing negotiating, you know, really, this is serious. It's serious. You know, I mean, I'm not in the camp that likes to be fear mongering with this, you know, but there is a large amount of risk that can come with it. And if you're negotiating this with someone who's all of a sudden you're starting to feel guilty for bringing up the use of protection, like, good to know. Like, that's a really good indicator of where that person is with their own. Putting their own first maybe, or, and then disregarding your needs.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:56] Love it.

Kristin Marie [00:36:56] Love that idea.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] Ryan, did you want to add to this question about STIs and how to.

Ryan Stott [00:37:01] Yeah, I guess from the mail, from the male perspective. And again, hopefully my Internet's solid here. It's a constant balance of risk where it's like, number one, for the most part, guys don't like to wear condoms. Number two on the flip side is they don't want STIs and they don't want unwanted pregnancy. So you're trying to find this balance. And, you know, there is a lot of asking. Some guys don't. But I think for the most part, you know, if guys are going to have unprotected sex, they're like, okay, well, when was the last time that you've had unprotected sex? When was the last time you've been tested?

Ryan Stott [00:37:34] You know, there's some very important protocols there because if you're not being safe, then, yeah, it absolutely happens. I think there's some recent data out that, you know, certain STIs are on the rise, especially here in Utah. I saw something recently, especially with younger groups, teens, gonorrhea jumps out in my mind for some reason. I saw some data on that. So it's out there and it happens. And you're kind of, you know, if you're not in a committed long term relationship where, you know, you're comfortable that, you know the person's not sleeping around with somebody else, then it's a hard, you're trying to walk a fine line, especially if you don't like to work condoms every time. So it's, it could be a challenge.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Michelle, did you have something to add about this discussion of STIs and in your experience?

Michelle Ross [00:38:17] No, it was more like a question on my part too, because it is kind of an uncomfortable thing to talk about. But, you know, and it's like, well, how often should you be screened? And maybe, Kristen, you can kind of talk about this too. But I mean, should you be screened after every new partner? Should you be screened once a year? Should you be screened, you know, are you okay to have sex with condoms before being screened? You know, just kind of, just kind of. What are your thoughts on that?

Kristin Marie [00:38:55] That is just up to Each person. I think that if you. I think pretty typical kind of understanding out there would be that if you've had, like, unprotected. I don't want to be just sex, but even like, oral sex can. You know, I think that a lot of people would probably go get tested after that, but most are just once a year, I think if they're, for the most part practicing, like, protected. But it's so different for everyone. And men and women have different kind of practices there as well. And that can get kind of.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] How do you get tested? What's the best way to get tested? Cheapest, most effective.

Ryan Stott [00:39:36] I walked into Planned Parenthood.

Kristin Marie [00:39:37] Planned Parenthood.

Ryan Stott [00:39:38] Now you go in there. I mean, a lot of times insurance will cover it. It's not too expensive.

Kristin Marie [00:39:45] Yep.

Kristin Marie [00:39:45] Okay.

Kristin Marie [00:39:45] Or just your women. We typically have an OB or sexual health professional.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] What does it usually cost? Just the copay then, or.

Kristin Marie [00:39:57] Well, Planned Parenthood, we'll do sliding scale. And then usually, yeah, there will be like once a year, usually preventative and whatnot. Checkups. What can include. For women can include STI screens.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] Great. Kristen, what's the next point on your list?

Kristin Marie [00:40:16] Shared values, which we've talked quite a bit about here? And I just really quick on this. I will say it's okay to start at. If you're kind of reevaluating your values with this, my opinion is it's okay to start with it. I think, you know, I think that I, you know, really don't want to get into the kinky stuff, but I really like this stuff, you know, and saying. But I don't know. I'm figuring it out, you know, so that's kind of a random example that just came to my mind. But, yeah, it's very good.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Excellent. Okay, so we've talked about shared values. Does anybody else want to. To add anything about the importance of discussing shared values with your sexual partner? Or is that Paul.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:02] I mean, the only thing that I would add is that this is the fun part of dating. This is the part where you're no longer potentially shackled with anybody else's values and you can figure out what your values are. It is daunting. But at the same time, like I said, I mean, it's interesting and I think, like Kristen just said, to say I think is probably how I phrase most of my values now. You know, I'm pretty sure about some of them. I think about some of them, and I am feeling other ones out. I mean, it's just. That's just the way life's going to be now.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] And Paul, what are some spectrums or categories of sexual values?

Margi Dehlin [00:41:50] I'm always, I'm only gonna have sex with. With one partner. You know, I'm always gonna use. Use a condom until I'm in a committed relationship. And then it's, you know, then, or, you know, I'm. I'm never gonna be in a committed relationship and I'm gonna tell people this is what I'm gonna do. I mean, I think when, when they're your values, it's. It's what. What has meaning to you? What has meaning to me, to Paul, that's what it comes down to.

Ryan Stott [00:42:19] Love it.

Kristin Marie [00:42:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] Kristin, what's next?

Kristin Marie [00:42:23] Honest. Number five is honest. Being honest. I think that kind of is a really great framework for all of these, you know, being honest. I will say, though, one, with this topic, it can get a little. Because it's important to distinguish between private and secret, you know, and so sometimes that can get a little, like, iffy, you know, because if you. There are a lot of people that will hear, okay, I do honest sounds good. I really want that to be part of my healthy sexual.

Kristin Marie [00:42:57] My framework that I want to work from. Does that mean that as soon as I meet someone, I have to tell them who I've been with in the past year, or do I have to tell them my whole history and will that make me dishonest? And so sometimes that's kind of difficult to negotiate, but I think it can be done through possibly distinguishing between, well, that's private, and I hope to be able to share that with you one day or something. Saying something like that versus I'm going to keep this a secret. And then I feel kind of shady about it.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] So honest doesn't have to mean over disclosed from the very start.

Kristin Marie [00:43:32] Right, Right.

Michelle Ross [00:43:33] And I would add to that I was on a date with somebody a while back, and literally he told me, you know, how many women he had slept with. It was just like as soon as he found out that I was no longer in the church, it was word vomit. Just how many women he'd slept with, how, you know, just all these experiences he had had, and just started talking to me about sex for like the next two hours. And to me, that was way too much honesty, you know, I don't need to know how many people you've been with. I just want to maybe know if you have an sti, you know, like, if you lie to me about that, then I promise you this relationship isn't going to work out, you know, so I Think also just kind of having a pulse on the person, you know, trying to gauge are there red flags that maybe something doesn't feel quite right about the things they're telling me.

Michelle Ross [00:44:35] But there are some things that don't need to be shared and that, you know, you don't. It's not, it's okay not to share your whole sexual history. I mean, if there's things that are important that are going to affect the other person, then absolutely it should be shared.

Kristin Marie [00:44:56] But that's such an interesting point. As you're talking, I was thinking how really too you can, I don't know, maybe end up in situations where people are treating you like an authority figure, where they're almost like confessing to you, like, oh, and I've done this and this and this, where you're like, really?

Michelle Ross [00:45:17] Exactly.

Kristin Marie [00:45:18] It's all good.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Got it. Okay. Any other comments on honesty? All right, Chris, Brian.

Ryan Stott [00:45:30] I think my last one. Yeah, just real quick. Yeah, I'd say, you know, honesty is going to be. Honesty and openness is going to be good, whether in a committed relationship or even something casual. You know, maybe you have different motives of, hey, you know, I'm interested in something physical. And it's good to be honest and open about that. I mean, there's definitely a culture of friends with benefits. You know, it's out there, it happens. But it's good to communicate that you don't want to hurt other people's feelings because you know, if you're closed off and you're trying to hide your true intent, that's only going to create problems.

Kristin Marie [00:45:58] Great.

John Dehlin [00:45:59] So that. Kristin, how many points do we have left?

Mutual Pleasure, Honesty, and Joyful Intimacy

Kristin Marie [00:46:02] Just one.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] What is it?

Kristin Marie [00:46:03] Mutually pleasurable.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] Mutually pleasurable. Let's talk about that really quick. Then I have a follow up question. Mutually pleasurable? Why? Why isn't that self evident? Kristin?

Kristin Marie [00:46:16] I don't know why it's not self evident, but it's kind of not, I think in the culture at large. But one of the things that I think is underneath this is just the culture at large is not good at checking in with each other about what each other likes and what they don't like and just overall, you know, and so just, it's all still part of negotiating sex, the sexual experience and showing and using your voice and showing up and also being okay with the other person disagreeing and providing feedback. And I mean it takes, it's mature, it's really mature to have healthy sexual, sexual experiences. And so it sounds easy, it sounds self evident, but in practice it can be really anxiety provoking or really awkward and a skill set that needs some work.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] If somebody were to say, oh, go ahead, Michelle.

Michelle Ross [00:47:07] I was just gonna say yes. And everybody's different. And so it's not like there's one recipe. Everybody's different and you know, people are. And especially, and granted I'm not a man, but I feel like, especially with women, you know, there are definitely things that are more pleasurable to some women versus others. And so it's about figuring that out. And um, and I would say to the, to the men out there, you know, not to be put off if, if maybe the woman isn't orgasming during sex or whatever. I mean there's, there are definitely different levels. You know, women have very different bodies and different abilities and especially coming from like a Mormon background where everything was so your sexuality was turned off. You know, sometimes there's like that mental aspect to it, emotional aspect where it's hard to get to a place where you feel safe and comfortable and where it is pleasurable for you.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] So it's not always about the, I think Natasha calls it penile vaginal intercourse orgasm.

Kristin Marie [00:48:21] Yeah, right.

Kristin Marie [00:48:21] Such a good point.

Kristin Marie [00:48:23] I think the only thing I would throw on there, and this is so anecdotal, but I hear it enough that I think it's important. Listen to them. Don't assume that if you're with a partner that's male or female or whatever combination and someone saying, I really am good, actually I had a great time. I don't need to orgasm like Michelle just said or whatnot. Listen to them. Don't assume they're lying and maybe call out, you know, I'm going to choose to believe your words. So please tell me because I don't want mind reading in my relationships. It's just a nightmare, you know, so, yeah, so important.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] One thing I found when I was counseling at Utah State was just the very basics. That a Mormon man would have sex until he ejaculated and then he was done. And there wasn't really a lot of thought for the female satisfaction, let alone satisfactory efforts to help the female achieve orgasm if she wanted to. Is that a, is that a pretty common scenario within a Mormon or even a post Mormon culture or not?

Kristin Marie [00:49:30] Yes, I think it's common.

Ryan Stott [00:49:32] Okay, well.

Kristin Marie [00:49:33] And even if you look at us culturally, if you in watching movies, it's pretty fast. It's depicted in a really quick, you know, very mutual, happens at the same time type of way. So I can, I mean you could, it totally makes sense where it could be like, okay, 10 minutes, we're done.

Michelle Ross [00:49:52] Right?

Kristin Marie [00:49:52] You're good? I'm good.

Kristin Marie [00:49:53] Wait.

Kristin Marie [00:49:54] You know, the breakdown and all this

Kristin Marie [00:49:58] really stems from women in their sexual response cycle being compared to men. And we're making a large, a long headway with that. But I think a lot of times, you know, you get the perfect storm of not negotiating about these things, not knowing that you should be able to and that that's helpful to talk about what each other likes in order for things to be mutually pleasurable but mixed in with. So anyway, it can. I forgot my train of thought. But a lot of times we'll end up with a result of the woman thinking she's broken or the partner that she's broken because she doesn't. It didn't happen for her like it did for the man.

Michelle Ross [00:50:38] Exactly.

Ryan Stott [00:50:40] Got it.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] Okay, it's about time to be wrapping up. I want each of you to think about a closing statement. Paul, you should be familiar with closing statements as an attorney about being single and sexuality, if you had one sort of message to leave. But before we actually fully terminate, I'm just gonna ask one final question. Is there, and this is a two sided question, it's about sort of hookup culture and sort of like casual sex. Is there joy to be found in casual sex that isn't committed? And is there a dark side and a downside to that as well, or is it just pure party? Really quick, does anybody want to jump in and address that two sided question?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:27] Michelle?

Michelle Ross [00:51:28] I think it depends on the person. I think that's very individual. I think for some people, casual sex would not be okay. You know, for some people, they are okay with that. And I think that's a personal decision. I think there are a lot of risks involved in casual sex for sure, emotionally and physically. So I think you need to be careful. But I think it doesn't make you a bad person necessarily. Unless, you know, like Kristen's point.

Kristin Marie [00:52:00] The.

Michelle Ross [00:52:01] There's maybe something that's not consensual or there's. I can't remember what the point was, but you know, it's coercive or whatever, you know, so I think it, it's up to the person really, but there are risks, so you need to recognize that.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] Okay, Ryan, quick answer.

Ryan Stott [00:52:19] Actually, I think Michelle just did a great job of describing that where, yeah, it does need to be a mutual thing and it doesn't have to be done in a healthy way. It depends on the person. But absolutely. As long as both people are getting value out of something as Long as they both recognize that, hey, this is something that's casual and they don't have kind of larger expectations, then it could be done in a healthy way, if it's done right.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] But can there be a downside to it? And if so, what's. What's the downside?

Ryan Stott [00:52:43] Yeah, the downside is the opposite. If one person has different expectations or different desires than the other person. Where, you know, again, going back to, hey, we're all sexual beings. We all have this drive where if you could do it where you're satisfying each other and, you know, providing value for each other, then it can be valuable. The downside is if you're not on the same page and the other person wants more or is expecting more.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] I'm just wondering if sometimes, you know, it can become lonely or just detached or unhealthy to just kind of. Yeah. To be absolutely with anything and lots of stuff all the time without any sense of commitment. If that can present its own psychological problems. Maybe.

Ryan Stott [00:53:31] Yeah. And also, I think, you know, maybe it's, you know, the grass is always greener on the other side where some people in a committed relationship, you know, there's people out there who are exploring swingers. They want to kind of bring in some new, you know, spice to their. To their sex lives. And they say, hey, we want to kind of explore outside of these bounds. So, you know, there's people who are doing that as well. So.

Closing Reflections from the Panel

John Dehlin [00:53:53] Okay, it's time to close. Kristen, I'm going to give you a chance to end first because I know you may have a client. Just a second. So, Kristin, give us your closing thought, and then tell us how people can get ahold of you if they want to seek out your services.

Kristin Marie [00:54:05] Okay, I guess. Just a final thought. I guess it might be a tip. Try to make integrity at the top of the list whenever you're trying to navigate these new waters. If you hold just. How can I demonstrate integrity and offer that the same to those that I'm with or the person that I'm with that can provide kind of like a thread for figuring out what your new values might be? And they might be some of the old ones, but that could be kind of helpful, like, treat people the way you want to be treated. That's something, too.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] How do people get ahold of you, Kristin?

Kristin Marie [00:54:48] My practice is intimate connections counseling, and you can email@infointimateconnectionscounseling.com all right, Kristen, we

John Dehlin [00:54:58] love having you here.

Michelle Ross [00:54:58] Thanks so much for being here. We sure appreciate you.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Feel free thanks for joining us.

Kristin Marie [00:55:02] It's good to see you. Bye.

Ryan Stott [00:55:03] Bye.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] All right, Ryan, you go next. Closing thought. Over your microphone took a second to kick in.

Ryan Stott [00:55:15] Okay. Hopefully it got me now, I'd say, you know, I have a lot of friends who have kind of gone through this transition of, okay, we're starting to explore sexuality in a new, you know, kind of post Mormon believing, non believing world. And they could be frustrated. They might look back and say, man, feel like I missed out on so much. I have to kind of make up for lost time. They feel kind of a lot of pain where, you know, they, they missed a lot of sexual activity during their prime. You know, guys, once they start getting of a certain age, their libido might start dropping or, you know, their activity might start going down.

Ryan Stott [00:55:48] So I'd say, you know, look at this as a positive. You have a whole new menu of things. You can try new things. Explore yourself, explore your sexuality. There's a lot to learn. We haven't even talked about homosexuality in here, but I feel especially sorry for, you know, homosexuality and the pain and suffering that they're feeling. Kind of holding everything inside where, you know, now, and I'm not homosexual, but it is something you consider certainly nothing wrong with that. But now as, you know, kind of entering into this new world, I feel optimism. It's, you know, hey, I can kind of be who I am.

Ryan Stott [00:56:23] I don't have to live in kind of a cage with the confines and the prescription of what a religious institution wants me to be. I can work on being a natural, healthy self. So that's my final word is just, you know, again, wherever you land, land softly, but don't live in fear. And, you know, do what you're explore with what you can be comfortable in doing.

Kristin Marie [00:56:46] Right. All right, Ryan, so great.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] Ryan, it's been great to have you. Thanks for joining us.

Ryan Stott [00:56:51] Thank you, Paul.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:55] I think my closing statement would simply be that if there is uncertainty in your life, don't run away from it. Embrace it. And embrace it with an open heart and open mind. And it can be fun. The uncertainty.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] Embrace the uncertainty is Paul's message.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:11] Yes.

Kristin Marie [00:57:11] So true.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] All right, Paul, it's great to have you.

Kristin Marie [00:57:14] Thank you, Paul.

Ryan Stott [00:57:15] Good to see you guys.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] Hang out soon.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:16] We'll talk to you soon.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] All right, Michelle, you get the final words since you helped us make this happen?

Michelle Ross [00:57:22] Yeah, I would just say just do it. Just do it. No, I wouldn't. I actually wouldn't say that. I think, you know, I actually have been thinking a lot about some Situations that I've been in where people find out that I'm a postmo. And I think there's kind of this weird.

Michelle Ross [00:57:44] It's like when you find out somebody is maybe willing to have sex, like you think that they will have sex with you. And I think that we need to remember that just because somebody is willing to have sex doesn't mean that they just want to have sex with everybody or anybody. You know, you still want to have a.

Michelle Ross [00:58:06] You know, you still want to care about the person. At least for me, it's something that I feel like is still, you know, it's not just. It's not just nothing. It's still something that can be a big deal.

Michelle Ross [00:58:21] I don't think it needs to be as big a deal as the church makes it out to be, but I do think that it's something that does have consequences, positive and negative. And so you just have to be careful in navigating the waters and also take care with the people that you're navigating this with and think it out for yourself. Think. Really? I mean, I. It took me, like, a good year just to think through all of this and figure out what was and wasn't okay for me. And so, you know, I think it just. I think it's okay to take your time and.

Michelle Ross [00:59:01] But also, you know, if you're still feeling shame and guilt, see a therapist. You know, Kristen Benion. She's awesome. Or whoever. Talk about it, get out there, figure it out. Because I think it's an important experience for all humans, and I don't think it has to be tied to marriage.

Kristin Marie [00:59:24] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] All right, Michelle.

Kristin Marie [00:59:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Michelle, thanks for organizing and making this happen. We'd love to have you back sometime.

Kristin Marie [00:59:30] Isn't it great?

John Dehlin [00:59:31] What'd you think?

Michelle Ross [00:59:32] I'm so glad we did this.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Yeah.

Kristin Marie [00:59:33] Honestly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] Learned a couple things.

Kristin Marie [00:59:36] Yeah. This is really insightful. Thank you, guys.

Michelle Ross [00:59:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] All right, so we'll just give a quick shout out to our executive producer,

Ryan Stott [00:59:48] Amy Grubbs.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] She makes all this possible behind the scenes. We also want to give a shout out to the newest member of the open source family, Cody. Cody's joined us for the first time as a producer as well, and we're grateful Cody's here. We want to thank everyone who makes this possible. We want to thank the board of directors of the Open Stories Foundation. Want to thank everyone who donates to make this possible. Please, if you value this content, please don't be a free writer. Please contribute at MormonStories.org, mormonTransitions.org, OpenStorageFoundation.org, wherever just ten twenty dollars a month can make the difference between this continuing or not. So please do donate.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Those of you who tuned in live, we want to thank you for your comments and questions. We were able to get to many of them today, but not all. Please feel free to message us with ideas or questions. We'd love to continue the conversation on the blog@mormonstories.org so please join us there as well.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] And we just want to thank everyone for tuning in and those who are listening asynchronously as well. We're just grateful to have listeners. So please stay in touch and let us know how we can provide you with content that's meaningful to you. And thanks to my lovely wife and my brilliant wife Margi for joining us.

Kristin Marie [01:01:11] Yeah, thank you hon.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:12] I really appreciate it.

Kristin Marie [01:01:13] Absolutely. It was fun.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] All right, everyone, you guys take care. Thanks again and we'll see you all guys again soon here on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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