1704: My Mormon Family Fell Apart – Kelsey Edwards Pt. 1
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guest: Kelsey Edwards
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing Kelsey and Episode Overview
Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1704
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It's November 28, 2022, and I am joined today by my partner in goodness and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:13] Hey there.
John Dehlin [00:00:14] Thanks for joining us.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:15] Yes, my pleasure.
John Dehlin [00:00:16] Today I am super excited for our interview. Today we're interviewing Kelsey Edwards. Hey, Kelsey.
Kelsey Edwards [00:00:23] Hello. How's it going?
John Dehlin [00:00:24] There are several themes that we're going to be discussing today. Many of you might know Kelsey, at least if you follow TikTok and Instagram. She recently released a song called Life in a Box, which is about her own faith journey. And it's a lovely song. I highly recommend it. It's available on Apple and Spotify. So that's kind of how I got to know Kelsey is through that amazing song. You also may have seen her share that song with her believing Mormon mom on TikTok and on Instagram and. And that caught a lot of eyeballs. But anyway, just pause right now. Go listen to Life on a Box, come right back and you'll know who we're dealing with. But the themes for today are all really relevant and important themes. Of course, we've been covering kind of Gen Z and Mormon millennials who, you know, more recently have experienced a faith journey within a Mormon context. So we're going to be talking about her faith journey as a returned missionary Mormon, millennial, or someone in her mid-20s. But we're also going to be talking about kind of perfectionism as a young Mormon woman, devout orthodox Mormonism, because Kelthy self describes as a very devout orthodox Mormon. She even put in her kind of outline the idea of, like, how does someone totally committed and devoted to the church end up having a faith crisis? So we're going to be covering that. Obviously her mission experience. We're going to be covering a bit. In addition to perfectionism, we're going to be talking about, you know, her experience being homeschooled as a young Mormon girl and Mormon woman and also as kind of a child, let's just say actor, performer, because she has been involved in many media things, including as a singer, songwriter and actor. Even the LDS church, after her mission, used her in the I'm a Mormon or Light the World campaign.
Kelsey Edwards [00:02:20] Lots of videos.
John Dehlin [00:02:21] Lots. Lots of videos, videos and campaigns. So a lot of. A lot of experiences being a child and a young adult media performer, singer, songwriter, actor kind of thing. And of course, we're going to get into her faith journey as well. But without any further ado, I give you actor, singer, Songwriter, and she's known as Internet big sis on YouTube and on other channels. Kelsey Edwards. Hey, Kelsey.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:48] Hello.
Kelsey Edwards [00:02:48] Hi. Thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting to be here.
John Dehlin [00:02:52] Oh, it's our pleasure. We're really glad you could make it because normally you're in la, right?
Kelsey Edwards [00:02:55] Right, yep. I live in LA most of the time now. I come to Utah like, once a month for the holidays and family time, but mostly in LA these days, so.
John Dehlin [00:03:03] And. And you're here for Thanksgiving, right? Yep.
Kelsey Edwards [00:03:06] Time with the family, you know.
John Dehlin [00:03:08] Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, one of the things we like to do before we begin, we know you have as. As most Mormons who. That's. Most Mormons basically have many believing family and friends, whether or not they're still active and devout in the church. And so what we'd like to do is always begin with giving you a chance to kind of share your intentions on why you are coming on Mormon Stories, because sometimes a lot of people might misunderstand why you would come on Mormon Stories. So do you want to start there?
Kelsey Edwards [00:03:41] Yeah, I would love that. And I appreciate that opportunity as well, because, yeah, I do have, you know, many friends and family that are within the church and that still love the church. And to me, it's so important to still respect where they're at and to show love to them. And so my intention with being here is not to, like, attack or destroy or be unkind to anybody, but just to help create conversations and to, like, bridge gaps, you know, between, you know, people that believe one way and people that believe another way, and we can still love each other and we can still respect each other, even if we believe different things. And that's. That's a really important thing to me is being able to create those conversations, those spaces of openness and acceptance.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:23] Yes.
Kelsey Edwards [00:04:23] My goal is just to create those spaces of love and openness and acceptance all across the board. Open conversations and. Yeah, to connect.
John Dehlin [00:04:33] Well, excellent. Well, thanks for sharing your intentions. That's important. And Margi, anything you want to say before we jump in?
Margi Dehlin [00:04:40] Just that I'm excited. I'm glad to be here today. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:43] Yeah. All right, Kelsey, well, I know you have a Texas story, and as a fellow Texan, that's exciting to me.
Kelsey Edwards [00:04:50] Yeehaw.
John Dehlin [00:04:52] Yeehaw. Yeah. Why don't you tell us where your Mormon story begins?
Kelsey Edwards [00:04:56] Yeah. I was. I was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas. That's where the bulk of my childhood took place. And I never went to public school. I was actually. I like, went to, like, A year of private school, and then my mom decided to homeschool us. Basically after kindergarten. I was homeschooled. So I was homeschooled all throughout my, like, childhood years, all throughout my teenage years. And, you know, I was very. I was raised in the church. I was very devout. And the homeschool group that I was a part of was like kind of our social, you know, resource, I guess, for lack of a better word. But we spent a lot of time with our homeschool group and most, I think everyone in the homeschool group is also like, very, very devout members of the church. So it was interesting because I grew up in San Antonio, Texas, which is known for like, you know, any part of the south, as like, lots of different religions and lots of different belief systems and things like that. And yet I was exposed to that occasionally through different friends growing up as an actor. But I still felt like I was very much in my, like, bubble, for lack of a better word, of like my homeschool group, everyone believing the same way that I did. And, you know, I had friends that were Catholics or I had friends that were Baptists and stuff like that, but there was still some because I wasn't. I didn't go to public school and I wasn't around, like, kids every day that believe differently than me. There was still a lot of like, yeah, just like closeness within the belief systems and, and all of that. So
Family Background and Mormon Roots
John Dehlin [00:06:25] I'm curious, just a little bit of background on your parents. Were they multi generational Mormons? Were they converts to the church and what, you know, kind of what. How did they. Do you remember how they met and, and also kind of what their professions were at the time you grew up?
Kelsey Edwards [00:06:39] Yeah, yeah. My mom is a multi generational member. Her relatives, like, crossed the plains and, you know, came to Utah and stuff like that. Pioneers. And I think one of her. One of her, like, relatives was like Justice Smith's bodyguard or something like that. But then my dad was a convert. He converted at the age of eight. And he. His family, like, kind of was active at times throughout their life, but he was inactive at times throughout his life as well.
John Dehlin [00:07:08] Do you remember where he converted?
Kelsey Edwards [00:07:09] He is from Michigan, so he. Yeah, he was baptized and it's actually ironically, both from Michigan, but did not meet in Michigan. They met in Germany, which is super random. But. But yeah, so my mom was born and raised in the church. My dad was a convert. Eight. At eight. And then he kind of was inactive for most of his life. Returned to the church in his young Adult years. And it was at a YSA basketball activity, I believe, in Germany, where my dad was stationed there for the military. And my mom was over there visiting her brother who was stationed in the military in Germany, in Frankfurt specifically. And so that's where they met, was at a YSA basketball activity. And yeah, my dad recently come back to the church at that time and they dated and fell in love and had.
John Dehlin [00:07:49] What were they doing in Germany?
Kelsey Edwards [00:07:51] Well, my, my dad was there on like in the military. And then my mom, like, do you
John Dehlin [00:07:57] know what he did for the military?
Kelsey Edwards [00:07:58] He was in the army. He did, I guess, some. Some top secret stuff.
John Dehlin [00:08:02] Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [00:08:02] Like, stuff I don't really even know about.
Margi Dehlin [00:08:05] Things she can't talk about.
Kelsey Edwards [00:08:06] That's exactly. He's always like, if I told you, I'd have to kill you. I'm like, I don't know if you're kidding or not, but he. Yeah, he was. He was in the military for quite a while. And that's, you know, like I said, my mom's brother, my uncle, was also stationed in the military in Germany. So it's kind of crazy because they both were born in Michigan, but like, they didn't meet there. They met in another country. Okay, so.
John Dehlin [00:08:29] So they.
Margi Dehlin [00:08:30] Yeah, no, keep going. Are you gonna.
John Dehlin [00:08:32] Oh, okay. So they. So they met in Germany and fell in love. Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [00:08:37] Yep. And had my oldest brother there. I have two brothers, older brother and younger brother. My older brother was born in Germany and I guess that's where I was conceived. It's like I actually went to Frankfurt with my mom and she pointed out, it's like you were conceived in that building right there.
John Dehlin [00:08:51] Oh, wow.
Kelsey Edwards [00:08:52] Thanks, Mom.
John Dehlin [00:08:54] Were they temple married? Do you know?
Kelsey Edwards [00:08:55] Yes, they were.
John Dehlin [00:08:56] Do you remember which temple?
Kelsey Edwards [00:08:57] You know, they were married in the Salt Lake City.
John Dehlin [00:09:00] Okay, so they came back to Salt Lake.
Kelsey Edwards [00:09:01] Yep. Yeah, they came back to Utah, got married here.
John Dehlin [00:09:04] Why are you laughing, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [00:09:05] Oh, I was thinking back to what you just shared, like the power of place.
John Dehlin [00:09:09] Oh, yes, yes.
Kelsey Edwards [00:09:11] Okay, A little TMI there, but impact.
John Dehlin [00:09:16] Okay, so they get married in the Salt Lake Temple. Did any either your parents serve a mission for the church?
Kelsey Edwards [00:09:21] Yeah, my mom served a mission in Las Vegas, Nevada. My dad did not serve a mission because he wasn't active at the church. Active in the church at the time. And. And yeah, but then, but then my mom did, so. Okay.
John Dehlin [00:09:33] Yeah. And. Okay. And they're. I'm trying. I'm guessing they're around my age. Are they in their 50s?
Kelsey Edwards [00:09:41] Yeah, like mid to late 50s. Okay. I don't know how old you are, but yeah, 53. Nice.
Born in Germany, Raised on the Road
John Dehlin [00:09:46] Okay, so. So you're born in Germany, is that right?
Kelsey Edwards [00:09:51] I was born in San Antonio, but I was conceived in Germany and.
John Dehlin [00:09:54] Got it. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:56] Hence the building.
Kelsey Edwards [00:09:58] Yes, yes, exactly.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:59] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:10:00] Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [00:10:00] My older brother was born in Germany, but.
John Dehlin [00:10:02] Okay, so how many siblings and where are you in the birth order?
Kelsey Edwards [00:10:04] I have two brothers. I have an older brother, a younger brother, and I am the middle child, only girl.
John Dehlin [00:10:09] Okay, so. And did they go to San Antonio for military as well?
Kelsey Edwards [00:10:14] Yep, that was my dad's next assignment after Frankfurt was they were assigned to San Antonio, which is where I was born, and my little brother. So that's kind of where. And then he actually left the military shortly after, because I think they wanted to deploy him to Japan for three years or something. And my mom and dad were like, no. So then he left the military.
John Dehlin [00:10:32] Got it. So there are stereotypes about homeschoolers, at least in Utah. Sometimes that they're preppers, sometimes that they're, like, ultra orthodox Mormons, sometimes that they can be kooky. But then also, some of the most brilliant people I've ever met have been homeschooled just because their parents valued education and. And took it really seriously. So not wanting to poison the. Well, like, where. Where did your family fall in terms of why they wanted to homeschool?
Growing Up as a Child Performer
Kelsey Edwards [00:11:03] Yeah, that's a great question. And I. I will say that those stereotypes are not just for in Utah. Like, they're in Texas too. And there were many times in my life where I was, like, made to feel weird because I was homeschooled or something like that. But, yeah, my parents really valued education. They really valued, like, a safe environment. Some of the schools around where I grew up weren't so great, and they really wanted to have an environment where they could have us home and, you know, have a say in our education and how we were raised. And the other big thing, too, is that we were child actors. And so that, like, immediately created a space where it was like, oh, well, if, you know, if Kelsey's in school for however many hours a day, then she can't do this audition or she can't do this play. Like, I started acting at five, you know, and so it was, like, very, very quickly, like, a necessity to not be in school. So it was, like a combination of those things. It was like, let's keep the children home. Let's, like, have them close. Also, my mom is so kind and has always said, like, I don't know why people always want to send their kids away to school. She's like, I want to spend as much time with you as possible. So it really, like, always meant a lot to hear that growing up. Like, my mom wants me close and she loves me, which is why, you know, we have this. So. But yeah, then, like, acting and dancing and modeling and all the things that I did as a kid.
John Dehlin [00:12:19] So I've always wondered how parents decide that their kids are going to be child actors. Like, is it. Were your parents performers? Did they. How did they catch the bug? What, what. What occurs to a parent to kind of set their kids down that road?
Kelsey Edwards [00:12:36] Yeah, as far as I'm aware, My mom also did theater in high school. Like, she acted a lot in high school. She did plays. I think my dad and her were maybe in a play at one point in time together. And so they both, like, had a love of musical theater acting and things like that. And there was. There was a children's theater in San Antonio, it's called the Magic Children's Theater. And they were casting. Well, that was when I was seven, actually. I started at a different theater before them, but there was like, a children's theater that was casting a show called Little Luncheonette of Terror. It was like, like a child. A family friendly version of Little Shop of Horrors. So. So they were casting, like, kids and. And things like that. And my mom got me into an audition and she used to, like, rewrite all of these songs for me. Like, she would rewrite Sound of Music, the song like I am 16 going on 17. She rewrote a version for me as like a 5 year old or 6 year old that was like, I am 6 years going on 7. She would have me sing all these, like, you know, really cute songs for my auditions and stuff like that. And I don't know, I guess it worked. So. So I got cast in a couple of these shows as a kid, and that was, you know, that was the start of it. And when I was seven, actually, I was the lead in a play called Lily's Purple Plastic Purse, which is based on a childhood.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:57] Kevin Hanks, right?
Kelsey Edwards [00:13:58] Yeah, yeah. It's like a child's storybook. And everybody else in the cast was an adult. I was the only child in the whole cast and I was 7 years old and I played Lily. So it was just like. I think it was one thing after another when she started getting me into acting. And then these opportunities came up and I fell in love with it, you know, just kept going.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:17] So would you say that if we were Thinking about your family and family culture, that this was a big piece of your family culture. This kind of, a lot of it sounds like a lot of your interests or hobbies played into or allowed for you to develop more as an actor or have more skills. And was that true for your brothers too?
Kelsey Edwards [00:14:37] Mm, yeah. I mean, absolutely. I, I am so grateful to my mom and my dad for that because they. It's very rare that you get introduced to your passion at like, such a young age, you know, that you find the thing that like, fuels you as a five year old. Like, that's crazy, you know, And I always, I thank her for that all the time. Like, thank you for encouraging me to follow my dreams, to find this creative medium that I love so much. And my brothers were also actors. They, they would like, act in the shows with me. Actually. We did a lot of plays together. My older brother and I were in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe together. And he played Peter and I played Lucy. And like, so we were siblings in that and that was fun. But we did a lot of theater together growing up. And then eventually we started doing film. And they were also very like, successful in the film industry. My brothers actually worked more as kids in the film industry than I did. Like, my older brother was on a Disney Channel show. My little brother was in a movie with Greg Kinnear. Like, they, they did a lot of, you know, and, and a Sprint commercial that like, ran for a long time. So. But yeah, we all were, we all were in the film industry and like, loved it very much. And it was a very like, integral part of my life and my childhood, for sure.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:47] So what I'm hearing kind of is that it was part. A pivotal part of your family culture. And it seems like you're kind of saying it was a good fit because that's not always the case, right, with, with children starting young or when it's coming from the parents onto, onto kind of children. But that's kind of what I'm getting from you, is that you view it as you said, kind of introducing you to your passion.
Kelsey Edwards [00:16:16] Yeah, I would definitely say. I would definitely say that. Like, and, and that is something I'm really, like I said, I'm really grateful for that, to have found that love and that passion. And it was a very, It's a very unique childhood. You know, like, a lot of. Not a lot of kids are like, moving to LA at like 10 years old to pursue like, you know, an acting career. And like, I auditioned for like, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory and because of Winn Dixie and like, you know, all these really big Hollywood films, like I was auditioning for these movies as a 10 year old and that is like a really, it's a unique way of growing up, you know and I have my mom and my dad to thank for that because they made a lot of sacrifices for us to be able to do that. You know, we would go out to la, my mom and my brothers and I, we'd stay with one of my aunts and then my dad would stay home and work and you know, at the time that was really hard for them to like be apart and they made a lot of sacrifices for us to have the career that we have that I have now. And you know I did a lot of like child modeling, I was doing Runway modeling, I was performing in like talent shows and singing and all of this stuff. And it's like, I think about that a lot. Like my mom gave up a lot to like have her kids like have their dreams. So I'm really thankful for that.
John Dehlin [00:17:27] There's, there's this also stereotype or preconception people have of like you know, JonBenet Ramsey moms or like Michael Jackson's dad just. Or Tater who is it? Britney Spears? Like parents that are over involved that are mean or abusive or domineering and, or living precariously. Yeah, exactly.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:49] Their kids.
John Dehlin [00:17:50] And of course we're not wanting you to throw shade on your parents but you know, I imagine, I imagine that can be a delightful dynamic to have your parents supporting you and what you love but it can also be tricky. So what, what can you say about kind of the parent child dynamic?
Kelsey Edwards [00:18:11] Yeah, you know, I do see a lot of that like the, the stereotypical like stage mom kind of thing. I honestly never experienced that with my mom. Like it was straight, straight up love, support and just like encouragement. Like my mom did so much for us and for her kids and, and my dad did too. They both made their own sacrifices. And I would say that any, any like involvement my mom had in my career was like strictly from a place of. Yeah. Wanting us to have like the best life possible. She was very selfless in that way, you know, and that's so true because I see a lot of parents where that is not their motivation. They're kind of like living vicariously through their child. You know, like I didn't get to do this, so I'm gonn with you. But that was never, I never felt that growing up just like just straight love, support and encouragement for My mom and my dad and yeah, a very unique childhood.
John Dehlin [00:19:04] So really quickly, any fun stories about meeting people or auditioning or did you want to share just from a childhood time?
Kelsey Edwards [00:19:12] Yeah, I mean, I met so many like Disney Channel stars when I was like a kid and that was a big deal for me at the time. You know, 10 year old Kelsey was like, oh my gosh. Like we, we ran into, I don't know if guys ever saw the movie Holes, but like the kid who plays Zero, we saw him at auditions all the time. And I was always like so starstruck. And then Lizzie McGuire, like Jake, Jake Thomas I think is his name. But he was always at auditions with my brother and I. So I would always like try to like play it cool. But I'm like, I love you. I love your show. Like, I met like, I think I met Raven Simone one time. Like, and I also grew up with a lot of childhood actors that like made it on Disney Channel. Like David Henry, he was in Wizards of Waverly Place. Like I had the same manager as him growing up and Sammy Hanratty and like all of these, all these kids that ended up doing a lot of things with Disney and Nickelodeon. It's crazy because I grew up with them and then, you know, it's. It was just like a fun, just a fun way to live life. Like just to go to auditions and meet all these like celebrities or whatever. And I had a couple cool opportunities acting. I did like a TV pilot with Tony Hale when I was a kid and that was really cool. And yeah, just met a lot of really awesome people and had a lot of cool auditions. My hamster died when I was in la. My dad was supposed to be watching my hamster. And that was like one of the most traumatizing stories of my childhood. It's just like I had this really big audition and I did well, I guess. And then afterwards my mom was like, I have something to tell you. I was like, oh, no. What is it? She's like, liberty died. And I was like, what? Like, Liberty was my hamster. And I guess my dad had fallen asleep on the couch and the hamster, my dog had punch like a hole in the hamster wheel and eat in my hamster.
John Dehlin [00:20:57] Oh my goodness.
Kelsey Edwards [00:20:58] Yeah. So I was like, I was like, no, that was like the one moment where living in LA and being an actor was like, not so happy. But yeah.
John Dehlin [00:21:07] And then what's it like to be business and career minded at. You know, most kids are like playing soccer and playing Tinker toys, playing Dollies. And you're like trying to grow your career as a six year old. You know, what's that like?
Kelsey Edwards [00:21:23] Yeah, that's, that's so true. I mean, you are like, you're focused on like this growth and like, oh, did I book this role? And like the competitiveness of other actors at like a young age, like competing against like Anna Sophia Rob, she was like, oh, I was always up against her as a kid. And that is very, that is very different. It's a very different way of living. And like even doing school on set, like we, I had like a, like an onset tutor anytime I had to do school. And you know, we'd have someone come into the trailer, you'd have like a tutor that would work with you on your homework and in between takes and stuff like that. And then you, after you're done, the break's over, you go back out to work. And as a child actor, you can only work for so many hours because of like labor laws, child labor laws and stuff like that. So those are things you have to be mindful of. And yeah, it definitely requires you to like, grow up, I would say, a little bit faster. And you do deal with things that are unusual. Like most people don't deal with them. Like you said, they're playing tag and stuff. And I did definitely had years of that too. Like I had years of childhood and getting to still be a kid. I don't feel like I was robbed of my childhood, but it definitely was, was a different way of growing up, you know. So, yeah,
Margi Dehlin [00:22:36] so in describing a little bit the moments that you feel like you were able to fully maybe be a child and be in childhood, do you have any moments you remember was that oftentimes when you kind of went back home, was that in the middle of like, what did that kind of look like where you feel like you were able to kind of maybe not, you know, be in relation to being judged or in some way, but to kind of be free.
Kelsey Edwards [00:23:08] Yeah. Yeah. Those years in LA were, were times of freedom for me as a child. And I remember my mom got us on like a soccer league, you know, just to have another kind of outlet where we're not just always having to think about like acting in our careers all the time. We were, we were playing soccer and that was really fun for me. I also grew up across the street from a really fun park in San Antonio and my best friend across the street, we would always go over there and like make up obstacle courses and like, do, you know, silly kid things at the park, and we made up all these little games and stuff, and we'd put on little talent shows for our parents and things like that. Like, I definitely have those moments of, like, freedom as a child and being able to run and play and get in the mud. And, you know, I lived in Texas. There's lots of thunderstorms and rain, and I remember going out to, like, play with the worms and play with the frogs and, you know, having those moments of freedom as a child that were, like, still really important to me, and I'm grateful for that. You know, like. Like you said, a lot of times, kids are robbed of those experiences because of their. Their childhood in the industry. But I really do feel like my parents did a great job at, like, striking the balance of. Of both. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:19] Yeah, I just had a quick question about how you experienced and processed rejection as a child, because I think conceptually, even as adults, we can have a hard time with that.
Kelsey Edwards [00:24:32] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:33] Processing that. So what was it like to be exposed to, oftentimes a highly critical. A lot of feedback as a child and being rejected, I would imagine, on a fairly ongoing basis. What was that like for you in particular?
Kelsey Edwards [00:24:51] Yeah, that's a. That's such a great question, because you do experience an insane amount of rejection in this industry alone. But then also starting so young, you know, being told no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, you're told, like, no so many times for every time you get a yes. There's so many no's before that. And that was always really hard for me as a kid. Like, I would get very emotionally invested in these roles that I loved. And, yeah, I. I just. In fact, I auditioned one time for a musical. I think it was the Sound of Music at this theater. And I wanted the role of Gretel, I think, is her name. She's like the youngest daughter. And I was so invested in that role. I wanted it so badly. And I was, like, right on the fringes. And then when I found out I didn't get it, I was devastated. Like, I cried for days. And I think I was seven. Like, I was really young. And my mom, bless her heart, at the. You know, at that very young age, told me, like, listen, as soon as you walk out of that room, you forget about it. You don't think about that role ever again. That is done. It's behind you. If you book it, great. If you don't, that's fine, you know. And she worked really hard to help instill that in me at a young age. Like, you forget about it, the moment you're done with it and in life moves on, you go, you know you're going to have another audition soon. And that, that I think has been really helpful for me. I still, I still had that lesson, have that lesson in my mind now when I audition for things like, oh, I really want that role, but I, I'm just gonna forget about it. Like, it's over. Nothing I can do now. But, but yeah, it definitely took years to like master that, I guess for lack of a better word, because as a child your emotions are so like raw and you know so little about the world around you that like these rejections do feel like a big deal. And yeah, there was a movie that I auditioned for my first movie when I was 7, and I remember I was going up for like the lead daughter role and I had a callback for that character. And, and in the callback I had to scream like they said. And they even told my mom like beforehand, they're like, don't worry if you hear your child screaming. It's just part of the callback. So I went in for this callback for this movie and they were like, hey, now I want you to like scream, like, act like you're trapped, you're in a. You know, it was like about a kid that got abducted and scream. And I just, I didn't do it. Like, I didn't scream. I was like, mom, mom. You know, and I didn't, I didn't book the role. Obviously I did book another role in the movie. He gave me like a different character in the movie. And. But you know, that, that was even a really profound lesson for me as a child of like the rejection, but then also like receiving direction, not doing it. You know, that's a lot for a seven year old to process. But you know, I learned from that point forward, if they ask you to scream in a callback, you scream. So it hasn't been a problem since, but you know, it was kind of an interesting story.
Making Ends Meet in Los Angeles
John Dehlin [00:27:38] What about, what about making ends meet financially? Like, I think of L. A as being like San Francisco, New York as being like ungodly expensive.
Kelsey Edwards [00:27:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:47] And then you're, there's so much failure unless you hit it big. I just wonder how your family make. Makes ends meet while you're, you're spending all this time doing all this stuff.
Kelsey Edwards [00:27:58] Yeah, well, I think that's like when I mentioned that my parents made a lot of sacrifices, I think that was a lot of it. You know, my dad stayed home, he was working my Dad's always been in like the computer tech world, like I t and stuff like that. And he would stay home in Texas working while my mom and my brothers and I were out in la. And that is what made it possible, like for us to be out there. In fact, I was actually just talking about this with my mom the other day. She said, you know, there were times that like we would, we would book gigs and like that money that like we booked from a commercial or we booked from a movie, like some of that money would go towards helping us stay in la, you know. And so it was like a combination of like my dad working and then us like booking our work that like made it possible for, you know, the money that I made from this paycheck would go towards my next round of headshots or like my next acting workshop or whatever it might be. So. So yeah, I know that, I know that they put a lot on the line and my dad's mentioned that too. Like we made a lot of sacrifices for you to like have that kind of lifestyle. So that was, that was a lot for them.
John Dehlin [00:29:07] Did it feel financially stressful? All the time. Were you like homeless?
Margi Dehlin [00:29:11] No.
John Dehlin [00:29:12] Living in.
Kelsey Edwards [00:29:12] No, we lived with. So my aunt, my great aunt lives in LA and we lived with her. Like we, we lived with her free of rent. I don't think she, yeah, I don't think she even charged us rent. I think we did a lot to like, you know, we'd buy food, we'd make food and help out around the house and stuff like that. But it never felt like stressful or taxing. And staying with my aunt made a big difference. I do remember that I had a lot of friends that would stay in these really nice, like all of the child actors would stay in this hotel. I think it's called the Oakwood. It was like this long term stay hotel that, you know, all the kids my age that were coming out for pilot season would stay there. And there was a part of me that was like, oh, that'd be cool. Like I was a little jealous that I didn't get to stay at the Oakwood, you know, because it was expensive and we couldn't really afford that. But we did have a free place to stay and that was like, that was a gift in and of itself. Even if it was across town. Like she lived in El Segundo, which is like on the opposite side of la, you know, and all the other work is like up near like Burbank and in that area. But we'd have to Travel across town every single day for these auditions and stuff. And I know that gas money got expensive and stuff, but they always found a way to make it work. I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:30:19] Hustling.
Kelsey Edwards [00:30:20] Hustling, yes. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:22] Okay, I have a bit of a strange question, but I'm. I'm kind of curious about this. So as you think about yourself as a girl and your natural interests were most. Did you ever have any interests or hobbies in particular that. That weren't necessarily. I would just say, like in line with your professional self, like with the singing, the. Did you ever have a love aura that you really nurtured or cultivated that was maybe outside of that? And if so, what was that?
Kelsey Edwards [00:30:56] Yeah, a little bit. Like, I've always loved acting, music, all of these things. That has always been a passion of mine. But I, when I was like, maybe nine, I got really involved in the world of neopets. Like, that's embarrassing to say now, but I was obsessed with neopets and I was obsessed with like coding and HTML and I was like a nine year old programmer, which, like a lot of millennials will say that now because we all kind of went through that like phase together of like MySpace. We're like coding our MySpaces and like learning HTML and like, I was actually pretty good at it, which is very strange. But, you know, I like made all these little pages for my neopets and designed my MySpace like a really cool way. And yeah, strangely enough, I really got into like the coding thing when I was a kid. That was like very different from anything else that I was doing with my life. But it was like a fun little, little tangent. And then, and then it was like quickly met with a lot of shame and I was like, wow, I'm wasting a lot of. Of time on the computer. Like I spent hours of my life on the computer, you know, and that was, that was an interesting thing to, to juggle. But I loved cooking and I loved. That was another thing I really got into, like cooking and making foods. I had like a little food blog when I was a teenager. So yeah, I love that. It was fun.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:15] What were some of the things that you remember cooking or being interested in cooking at the time? Do you remember?
Kelsey Edwards [00:32:20] Yeah, well, I was very into like healthy food, like clean food. It was called. I think my blog was called Clean Teen Kelsey. And I was like making all these like, healthy foods and like, you know, overnight oats and like sweet potato pancakes and like anything that I could come up with. I spent so much time on these Blogs. I was very much into the blog world for a long time. I'm still connected with some of those friends that I made back in the day. It was like, it was like at the height of like, blogs becoming a thing, you know, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:51] Thank you for sharing.
Kelsey Edwards [00:32:52] Of course.
How Mormonism Shaped Early Family Life
John Dehlin [00:32:54] So how did Mormonism influence your family during these childhood and early teen years in terms of like, church attendance, prayer, family prayer, scripture study, family rules, family culture? How did Mormonism show up in your family?
Kelsey Edwards [00:33:13] Yeah, we were always very devout, like very strong in the church. My most. Most of my family, you know, really was. And we were the family that would like, wake up early and have like scripture. And my mom was a seminary teacher for a really long time. And so like, we'd wake up at 5:30 in the morning and go to seminary and do all that. Because in, in Texas you have to do early morning seminary. It's before school. But we were, yeah, super faithful.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:40] I.
Kelsey Edwards [00:33:40] We never missed a Sunday. Like, you know, my mom held lots of teaching callings her whole life. I was in a lot of leadership callings as a teenager. I was always like the Beehive president or the Miami president or the Laurel president. And I was on the Stake Youth Committee for a very long time. And you know, like all these like, girls camp leaders and things like that. Like, I. It influenced my childhood in a lot of ways. And I was, yeah, did my faith in God all the way, you know, like twice. I think I did it like multiple times. It was very interesting. And that's. It's funny because our time in LA was actually some of the time that I felt the most like, guilt over, like, oh, we didn't go to church as much. Or like, I remember like we were drinking caffeine a little bit more and I was like, oh, no, like, this is not good. You know. And then when we came back to Texas and I was able to get back into like, my routine, like, okay, yeah, like, I'm studying my scriptures, I'm praying every day. And I really did do that my whole childhood. Like, I, more than anybody in my family, and I'm like, my mom has said this to me is like, I study my scriptures every single day. I prayed every single day, morning and night. Like, very, yeah, very, very devout is like the best way I can describe it. You know, I was all in 100% of the way.
John Dehlin [00:34:58] Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [00:34:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:00] Would you, would you pray that you would get roles kind of thing?
Kelsey Edwards [00:35:03] Yeah, definitely. Prayed for roles, Absolutely. I think for that Gretel role that I talked about with Sound of Music. I prayed for that so hard. It's funny.
John Dehlin [00:35:12] Do you remember being mad at Heavenly Father that you didn't get the role?
Kelsey Edwards [00:35:15] I think a little bit, you know, just in my, like, childhood mind of not understanding things, but, like, yeah, I think there was a little bit of frustration of, like, oh, why didn't I get that? But then you quickly learn, you know, that, like, it's God's will, not your will, and all of those things. So I learned. I learned to let go of the. Of that. But I definitely prayed for. I definitely prayed for roles, for sure. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:37] Okay. All right. So is it. Is it time to move anything else about your family or church life before we move into your teen years, or do we cover.
Kelsey Edwards [00:35:48] Yeah, I mean, I think. I think that's most of it.
Margi Dehlin [00:35:50] It just.
Kelsey Edwards [00:35:51] It just was a very, like, prevalent part of my childhood is really the best way to describe it. And. And I loved the church and I loved the gospel, and I, you know, was very, very passionate about it all through my childhood. But I would. I would say that, like, most of the intensity of, like, me finding myself kind of happened in my teenage years at that point.
John Dehlin [00:36:10] So I guess the. I guess those early. I guess perfectionism is probably an early theme that develops into your age 13, where that starts to become problematic. Should we. Should we go there?
Kelsey Edwards [00:36:25] Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it.
John Dehlin [00:36:26] I mean, maybe there might be a warning of trigger warning because we're going to talk about eating disorders. Is that right?
Kelsey Edwards [00:36:34] Yeah, okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that, like, I, From a young age, like, everything was very much. I was, like, very much in a world of extremes. And that's, like, the only way I know how to describe it is that if there was a rule, I would do it 100. Like, if you gave me some instructions to follow, like, I would do them to a T, and I would not waver. And, like, those were. Those were just parts of my personality that I don't, like. I don't know. It's crazy to think about that. But I was so all in all the way, no matter what it was like. And I was such a. Like a Molly Mormon, for lack of a better word. I just. I, like, the perfectionism thing was so important to me, being, like, very righteous and being as, you know, good as possible. And I even remember someone, like, someone from my homeschool group messaged me on MySpace when I was, like, a teenager and was like, people like, you are the reason why people leave the church. Like, you're Such an obnoxious Molly Mormon. You know, like, you're like, you push people away from the church. And I thought that was, was obviously I was really hurt by that at the time, but now I can, I can see like how intense I was. And I was very, yeah, very, very perfect. It always had to be about perfection. And I think that there was a lot of like, shame mixed in for me as well with like my body and like body image and modesty. And it's like this kind of like this melting pot of like I'm, I feel, I feel shame about my body and my body image and I don't like the way that like my body looks. And then also I have been taught my whole life to hide my body and to be afraid of it and to be, you know, not afraid of it, but like to hide it. Yeah, that's, that's a better way of putting it is like, you know, you, modesty is your responsibility and like, modesty is, you know, you need to dress a certain way so that like when I was a kid, I was told that I, by some women in my homeschool group, like, you know, you shouldn't wear skinny jeans because you can see the shape of your leg. And like a man or a boy like might get, you know, might have feelings about that. And so like, I grew up thinking that skinny jeans and leggings were wrong, you know, and I just like hid my body for years in like baggy clothing and knee length shorts and like huge shirts. Like, even if I was swimming, like, I never wore a swimsuit. Like, I truly did not wear a swimsuit for like my entire life until I was like maybe 23 because there was so much shame around that. And yeah, just like knee length shorts and big baggy T shirts, which is like. And other people around me were wearing swimsuits. I don't really know why I internalized it so deeply like that, but I did. And yeah, the perfection just like reared its ugly head in a very large like, way. And by the time I was 13, like I, I found myself very deep into an eating disorder. Like I was, I was starving myself. You know, again, trigger warning. But you know, I had like really strict restrictions on myself. I couldn't have more than 500 calories a day. And I lost weight very quickly and was very unhealthy. And like my hair was falling out and like my nails were all brittle. My skin was yellow. Like, it was, it was bad. It was really bad. And I just remember a lot of like the, the Shame and stuff from. From people who didn't understand either. Like people in my homeschool group who had comments about me or things like that. So, yeah, it was. It was a really tough time in my life and it stretched on for a long time. And, yeah, probably until I was like 6, 15 or 16. And then I had an obsession with healthy eating. So there's just like, a lot of extremes, you know, and I think that, like, that was all amplified during those, like, childhood, teenage years of just like, perfectionism and extremism.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:19] And now, you know, and this is kind of common within eating disorder, is that you can start somewhere, like on an anorexia, and then you can kind of shift and move to a more orthorexia, which is kind of that healthy eating, which honestly, you get. Well, you get some social approval or can get social approval for both. But orthorexia is kind of really widely spread because especially on Instagram or other places, because it's so difficult to kind of detect. And it kind of parades as I'm healthy. Look how healthy I am. Right. So I had a question for you around, because there's kind of perfectionism. I'm just noticing the layers now come together a little bit with childhood. You probably being directed, having directors tell you kind of what to do and you showing up for others in that way, and then a layer of religion on top of that. So where you're also being told, right. How to kind of show up, to be valued, to be maximally valued, to be maximally virtuous, particularly as a woman. So did you feel that kind of growing up, a lot of input from people about how you should be and was that. I'm hearing body image too. And that to me, I'd like to. To touch on separately. But this idea of how your purpose in the world in showing up, it just feels like starting early as a child, you were getting so much incoming and preferences about how people wanted you to show up.
Perfectionism, Body Image, and Eating Disorders
Kelsey Edwards [00:41:58] Yeah, that's a really great connection. Like, I don't know if I've ever even made that connection myself. But that's. Yeah, a really great point is that from a young age I learned.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:08] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [00:42:08] How to show up in the world. Also how to present myself a certain way, you know, how to, like, look a certain way or act a certain way, such that I would be liked in the most, you know, significant way or that I would get the role or that I would be appealing to somebody else. And I think that that is something I hadn't really thought about actually. But but yeah, I did learn those things at a very young age. And then it kind of like you said through that religious layer as well, of like, these are the expectations, you know, and these are like, these are the commandments. And this is the way that we want you to show up and this is what we want you to do X, Y and Z. We want you to not do X, Y and Z. And if you do those things, then you're righteous and that, you know, you can be living the gospel and be with heavenly Father again. And yeah, I, and again, like, if you give me those things, if you gave me those rules, give me those guidelines, I was gonna do them all the way. Like I knew how to do that. Like I knew how to do that well. But yeah, that really probably did play in a lot to, to some of the issues that I was dealing with with like body image and, and also like, as an actor you're expected to look a certain way. Like your body has to look a certain way. And that's, that's hard in the media, especially in the time frame that I grew up in. I think now it's a little bit more about like, a little better now. We have more of a space of like open mindedness towards different body types and stuff like that. But when I was growing up, it was still in the very like, you know, Britney Spears, like super thin type era. And if you didn't have a body that looked like that, like, like you're out, you can't be in the media, you know, you have to look this way. And I was kind of heavy like when I was like 12 or 13 and I would get teased a lot. And so I think that like the eating disorder also developed as like a, yeah, like a control thing and like a way to show up as like the way that people expected me to and a way of control. Maybe. I don't, I don't know if I had, I was talking about this with my mom the other day. I feel like there was a lot of things in my life where I, I felt like maybe parts of my life were slipping out of my control, that I didn't have as much control, but I did have control over how much I ate and I did have control over how many calories I consumed and I had control over how much exercise I did and you know, how many calories I burned during exercise. And like I kept count of those things like meticulously. You know, we'd exercise like after seminary and I would like count all my calories on the Elliptical. And all of my young women's basketball games. Like, I burned 700 calories in a basketball game, and I was, like, so stoked about that, you know, and then I would let myself eat after. Just, like, crazy.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:33] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [00:44:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:36] And so the combination of kind of American beauty culture, then being a child or teen actor, and then the church perfectionism, that's probably a pretty intense combination.
Kelsey Edwards [00:44:49] Yeah, Yeah. I think it was just a really tough melting pot for me in that phase of my life and how extreme I was and how much I leaned into the white. You know, it's like, if you give me black and white, I'll be white all the way. Like, you know, stay far away. And, like, that was. Yeah, just a really toxic part of, like, my. My brain. And I don't, like, I don't blame anybody in particular for that. You know, I'm not, like, there's no one that I hold responsible for that except for myself and my own, like, lack of understanding about things at the time. But, yeah, it was a. That was a tough combination. And then with some family stuff that was going on at the same time, it was just like. Like, my world is, like, spiraling out of control, you know, was.
John Dehlin [00:45:33] With the eating disorder was the type of thing where your parents or siblings knew you had a problem, and so they were monitoring you and trying to manage or pressure or help influence or even help heal you. Did you get. Did you see a physician that. Did you seek any sort of treatment?
Kelsey Edwards [00:45:52] You know, it's funny, I talked about this with my mom yesterday because she. She's actually a therapist now, and she said, like, I. I didn't know what to do, you know, and. And she didn't. And that's. Nobody did. You know, we had such limited information at that time. We had had some family friends that, like, their daughter had had a really severe eating disorder and had been hospitalized. And, like, it was very expensive. And my mom, you know, did her best to, like, lovingly encourage me, but didn't have the skills at the time to know how to handle that. And she's like, you know, said she's a. She's an incredible therapist now, and she's like, if I had known now, I would. Would have put you in therapy. But at the time, it's like, you only have what you have. So honestly, I never went to treatment. I never went to, like, a. A hospital. But at one point, my mom had said to me, if this doesn't get better, if you don't kind of, like, figure this out, you're probably gonna have to get hospitalized. And that scared me so badly that I quickly, like, I don't know. I don't know how I did it, but I found a way to, like, kind of bring things back together. I remember I was looking on this website. This was when the switch flipped for me is like, there was a. A bunch of posts of family members of people that had passed away from anorexia. Like, they had starved themselves to death, literally. And I. I don't think I quite knew that that was possible. And I read that and I like, I just, like, even now I'm like, I feel myself getting emotional because that was so profound for me that I was like, I could literally die from this. Like, and at this point, like, is my life worth being skinny? You know, which is more important? And that, like, shifted everything for me. And I started to find ways to, like, incorporate food back into my life in a healthy way. And of course, like I said before, that is when the switch kind of happened to Orthorexia, and I became really obsessed. I found clean eating. And I was like, okay, yeah, if I'm gonna eat food, I'll just make sure it's super clean, you know? And I, like, really became obsessed with that, which is when I started my blog and everything like that. But, yeah, to answer your question, I didn't ever have any forms of, like, treatment. I just kind of self treated in a crazy way.
John Dehlin [00:48:03] Yeah, and you kind of were scared into self. Into getting better. You were scared into getting better.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:08] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [00:48:09] And. And again, that was never my mom's intention. Like, she had the best of intentions, and I knew that she was scared and she didn't know what to do. And I think it was her way of saying, like, I don't know how to help you. And at this point, like, if things can't change, like, we do need to put you into a hospital. You know, it came from a place of love and not like,
John Dehlin [00:48:27] throats.
Kelsey Edwards [00:48:28] Yes, exactly. Yeah. It wasn't never a threat. It was just like, I don't know how to handle this. So. But it's probably the push I needed, to be honest.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:38] So I think oftentimes something tricky that happens when with anorexia, when you make a switch with eating and there's some type of physical difference to people, is that you actually can experience a lot of positive reinforcement. I'm curious actually what your experience was as you started to kind of deny yourself control and move and kind of the results of that. What was your feedback as you did that?
Kelsey Edwards [00:49:10] That's Such a. That's such a great point. Because there was so much positive feedback. People would tell me all the time, like, oh, you're so skinny. Like, oh, you're so skinny. I remember my dance instructor saying, like, your thighs couldn't touch if they tried, you know? And that was like. That was like a medal of honor. I was like, oh, wow. Like, I have a thigh gap. Like, cool, you know? And like, all throughout, like, When I was 14, I was in this movie and, like, all the girls would tell me all the time, like, how skinny I was. And, oh, you're so thin. You're so, like, tiny. And first off, I didn't believe it, which is very interesting now to look back and see those pictures and those videos of me at the height of my eating disorder and how thin I was. And I still thought I was so heavy. But. But, yeah, those, like, those, like, those comments of validation of like, oh, you look so good, you've lost so much weight. Like, wow, you're so thin. Really drove me. And it was almost. It was like a game I played with myself every day. Like, how little can I eat today? Like, how much can I get away with today? And if I wanted to have pizza at the end of the day, I would make sure that I saved all my calories up for the entire day and that the only thing I ate at the end of the day was pizza. And, like, that maybe a slice of birthday cake if it was someone's birthday. But it was. It was a game. It was like, wow, I'm loving this validation so much and this positive feedback that I'm getting and I can keep doing this. And, like, calorie counting was a game. And, like, it was like, okay, well, if I have, like, if I spend 100 calories on an apple, then, okay, I can't have. Have the calories on, like, celery later, you know? Like, I measured everything obsessively and. Yeah, yeah, it was. My friend even told me that one time. Sorry, I, like, I spent the night at her house, and she's like, sorry, I don't have a measuring cup for your cereal. I know you like to measure everything. I was like, whoa, is it that obvious? Like, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:50:57] Well, thanks for sharing. And I'm. It is. As far as mental illness goes, it is one of the most difficult to treat, one of the most treatment resistant and most fatal, honestly, of all the mental disorders. Mental illnesses. And so I'm so glad that in your case, you're able to get better.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:19] Me too.
Kelsey Edwards [00:51:20] Yeah. Thank You. Yeah, it is a, it's a, it's a long lasting wound, but it is. Healing is definitely possible.
John Dehlin [00:51:26] You know, it's one of those things where you're always, you're always in recovery sort of thing.
Kelsey Edwards [00:51:31] Yeah. Yeah. You always have to be mindful of your triggers. And, and that's why I'm grateful you're putting a trigger warning on this too, because. Yeah. Like, if you're not prepared and you hear something, you're like, you know, your mind like reverts very quickly. So. Yeah, thanks for sharing.
Landing a Role While Struggling with Health
John Dehlin [00:51:48] So you said you, you hit a role, you were in a movie?
Kelsey Edwards [00:51:51] Yeah, yeah, I was in a movie when I was 14 called minor details that was really fun. It was like a very significant part of my teenage years. My mom and like a couple of her friends who are also in the film industry, my friend Sally wrote it and then they produced it together and then cast all of us as the leads. So it's kind of funny that, like, it was a movie made by a bunch of moms, but, like, it honestly did very well. It was on Netflix for a decade. It was like in red boxes all over the country. And like, it did really well globally even too. Like, there's, there's girls around the world that still watch that movie. And it's funny to me now because I, I recently discovered like a pocket on TikTok where like people are like tagging hashtag minor details and there's like tons of girls, like hundreds of thousands of comments or hundreds of thousands of likes and then like tons of comments about like, oh my gosh, I love that movie. That movie was like my childhood. So that movie was, you know, it was a very special part of like my life as a teenager. And it was, you know, I was one of the lead characters in it and it was really fun and just like a special little time where I was able to like, really step into my career in like a significant way.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:07] So you said you got that role when you were 14, is that right? So that's kind of. You're still in the middle of navigating an eating disorder while. So I have a question with you about that because I have a similar. I have a little bit of a parallel in that I was trying to run competitively while also having an eating disorder and so navigating, because I actually really cared about running and I imagine you're really caring about. Did you ever, like, have a moment or have experiences where low energy or your control around food or started to interfere with acting and what Was that like.
Kelsey Edwards [00:53:44] Yeah, actually, that's such a spot on question because there was a moment on the set of Minor Details when I was. Yeah, very much at the height of this eating disorder. I would starve myself. When I. When I said earlier the example about, like, waiting to eat pizza and a slice of cake. I distinctly remember a day on Minor Details. It was someone's birthday, and we were bringing in pizza and cake to celebrate their birthday. And I knew that I'd want to eat some of it. So I didn't let myself eat. Eat the entire day up until that point, until we had the pizza and the cake. And there was a day, also, it might have been the same day or like a day shortly after where we were in between takes. And I went to the bathroom and I was so lightheaded, I almost passed out, like, in my wardrobe in. On set, you know, And I remember one of the extras was in the bathroom, and she, like, tried to talk to me. And I probably seemed really rude because I was like, literally, like, I'm about to pass out right now. And I, like, almost blacked out. And that was. That was crazy. Like, to be on set, to be in that moment, like, you're shooting a scene and you take a break and you're like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it back. Yeah, that happened. That. That was like, the most distinct moment that I remember. But it did happen a few times where, like, my inability. I was. I was weak, you know, frankly, I really was. And especially the times when, like, my hair was falling out and like, all of these things, like, you don't have a lot of strength to navigate those, like, long hours on your feet, so.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:08] That's right. Did it ever push you to kind of course correct a little bit or to change some of your behavior to have a little bit more energy, or did it. Did that kind of take some time?
Kelsey Edwards [00:55:19] That took time. I think at the. At that phase of my life, I was still so excited about, like, getting skinnier and, like, being able to, like, be in a movie and feel good about the way that I looked. That. That my motivation was stronger there.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:32] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [00:55:33] Than it was to, like, you know, actually take care of myself. I was more motivated by, like, the way that I looked at that time. But eventually it got there. You know, eventually when I came across, like, that website, and I realized, like, you could actually die from this. And I was like, oh, this is serious. Like, you. Not only that, but, like, you know, you could. I don't know, like, you could not have kids. You could not be. There's a lot of things in your life that you may not be able to do. From destroying your body through starving it like that, you know, and that, like, woke me up for sure.
John Dehlin [00:56:06] So obviously there are plenty of people in the world with eating disorders that weren't raised Mormon. So if you had to think about whether it's the modesty stuff or the law of chastity stuff or the body shame stuff or even sexual shame stuff, if I gave you three choices, Mormonism was, you know, bad for your eating disorder as a teen, it was neutral to your eating disorder, or protective or healthy for your eating disorder, Would you even have kind of an answer to that question?
Kelsey Edwards [00:56:36] Yeah, I mean, I would never blame the church for my eating disorder, but I. I do think there are elements of the church that played up parts of my personality. Like, like I said, the extremism, the intensity, the, like, heightened, like, perfectionism, I think was played up by my relationship with the gospel and wanting to be the most perfect, righteous person I could be. And as a result, those intense parts of my personality that were so, like, brought to the surface really impacted my eating disorder. So I think, yes, I do think that there was a correlation. Not necessarily causation, but like, I would say there's a correlation because so much of my life and my identity was wrapped up in the perfectionism and being the best possible, like, saint that I could be, you know, and so then that impacted other parts of my life. And it wasn't just my eating disorder. It was also, like, school. Like, I would get really stressed out about school. I cried a lot when I couldn't, like, figure out math problems. And like, I had to. I had to have straight A's, you know, it was like, it was like, I just had to be the most best version of me in any, any area of my life. Whether that was eating the church, school, my career, like, whatever it was, it was just like extremism in all of its forms that I think was asked, exasperated a little bit by. By the teachings of the gospel. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:57] Always having to prove yourself.
Kelsey Edwards [00:57:59] Yeah, yeah. I mean, just always needing approval and, and like, wanting to. Yeah. Be perfect and. Yeah. I had like, a goal as a kid to, like, get translated, you know, like, that's.
John Dehlin [00:58:12] We'll tell our non. Half our audience isn't Mormon, so tell our non Mormon audience what you mean by that.
Kelsey Edwards [00:58:17] Well, there's like, you know, stories in the scriptures where, like, people who are so righteous and so worthy that, like, and I can't even remember who, who was translated anymore. Was it. I don't remember.
John Dehlin [00:58:27] City of Enemy.
Kelsey Edwards [00:58:27] Yeah, that was it. Yep. And I was so excited by that story in the Book of Mormon because I was like, that's my goal. Like, I want to be translated, which means you're so righteous and so pure that you can't be on this earth anymore. And the Heavenly Father has to basically take you up to heaven to be with him because you, you know, you're too good for this earth. Basically.
John Dehlin [00:58:44] We just call it being twinkled. Twinkling. Twinkling of an eye.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:58:48] It's. You're not killed. You just immediately change from like a mortal state to a resurrected heavenly celestial state. It's just like, you're just so righteous. You've proven yourself. Heavenly Father is going to bring you straight to heaven.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:04] Twinkle, Twinkled. Do you get to look twinkly, like, as you're brought up, like, maybe you do get to twinkle.
John Dehlin [00:59:10] You're like a shining light of brilliance.
Kelsey Edwards [00:59:14] Yeah. I mean, that all sounds really lovely. And that was my goal. That's what I wanted. I wanted to be twinkled. Or like, you hear like, there's stories I think I heard in the seminary of this saying of like, having your calling and election made sure, you know, which is basically like, isn't that when God, like, appears to you or like an angel appears to you?
John Dehlin [00:59:33] Jesus.
Kelsey Edwards [00:59:33] Jesus himself.
John Dehlin [00:59:34] Jesus appears to you.
Kelsey Edwards [00:59:35] You're so righteous that like, you will be in the celestial kingdom with me and that, like, I just, I just remember getting so excited about that idea as a teenager. Like, that could be me. Like, I want that to be me. That's my goal for my life is to be translated or to have my calling and election made sure. And yeah, that's how important it was to me to just be like, so righteous and so perfect and it drove every decision that I made.
John Dehlin [00:59:58] Yeah. High demand religions are feeding grounds for people with, with scrupulosity. Religious ocd, Right? That was mechanism.
Kelsey Edwards [01:00:07] Absolutely. My mom used that word to describe me actually yesterday I was talking to her about it. She's like, I didn't know what that was at the time. That's exactly what I was. Yeah. Religious ocd. I, I don't want to describe myself as like having ocd tendencies in any other part of my life, but when it comes to, comes to like religion and like, maybe like grades and stuff like that, it was, it was like, that was definitely a part of it. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:00:29] Okay, so what, what. Let's talk about your Mormon journey as a teenager up through the end of high school, like.
Kelsey Edwards [01:00:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:00:36] And your family and any, any stories you want to tell about your Mormon journey and you can throw your acting career stuff in, whatever you want.
Kelsey Edwards [01:00:44] Yeah, well, okay. Take some water.
John Dehlin [01:00:48] Yeah. Super curious about. And are you staying in LA by this point in your teen years? So take us through that.
Kelsey Edwards [01:00:55] Right, so we, yeah, the teen, the LA stuff was mostly when I was a kid, and then we were back in Texas for quite a long time. I was still acting. I was doing, I did that TV pilot with Tony Hale and I did some other movies and things around Texas. And then When I was 14, I did minor details. When I hit 15, that's kind of when things, like, shattered in my world. My parents had, like, their marriage was really, really rocky and my dad had left the church. And that was really hard for me as a teenager.
John Dehlin [01:01:25] Did you say what happened at the time?
Kelsey Edwards [01:01:28] At the time, I didn't know. No, at the time, I didn't know other. Otherwise all I knew is, like, I would, My dad stopped going to church and like, we were all going to church. We were all still really faithful, but my dad wasn't. And, you know, I was confused. I didn't really ask questions. I would come home from church and he had dinner ready for us or lunch ready for us. I was like, that's nice. That's a cool perk of like, dad not going to church, you know, because
Margi Dehlin [01:01:49] you're always hungry somehow when you get home from church. Exactly. Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:01:53] And he made great food. I was like, this is fine by me. But I also really struggled with that too, because a lot of my friends had, you know, faithful priesthood holders for fathers and they could receive a blessing from their father and I couldn't. And that was difficult. You know, my dad wasn't a part of, like, my teenage years in church or like, any of my times. I would give talks or if I would teach a lesson, you know, he wasn't there for that and I, I resented him a lot for that, you know, and that's like, that. It is what it is. But, you know, he left the church and was dealing with a lot of his own demons at the time. And, and yeah, like, I, I, I have sympathy for that, but it was really hard to not have my dad be in my life at that point. Point. And we come, we come home from church one Sunday when I was 15, and he was gone. Like, he just left and like, had left like, maybe a note for my mom or texted her or something like that that he was, he was gone. And that was like he left the family. Yeah, yeah, he was, he was gone. Like just no, no warning. That was really hard for me. And you know, I was already feeling so much like sadness and disappointment over like his lack of involvement in my life and, and his lack of church attendance and things like that. And then he left.
Father's Opioid Addiction and Family Fracture
John Dehlin [01:03:12] And I wanted, I want to pursue that, but I want to ask a question beforehand.
Kelsey Edwards [01:03:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:16] How does it. Knowing how important how central Mormonism is to orthodox Mormon's life, it's not like, oh, Presbyterians, and we'll go when we feel like it. Like it's interwoven into every aspect of your life. Your identity, your parents, marriage, your community, your everything. Right. Your morality, your spirituality. It's your all. How does it happen where a parent stops going to church? But it's never explicitly addressed. Like in my. I'm a bit more of a direct person. So like in my family it's like, let's all sit down and we're going to talk about dad, why'd you leave? What were the reasons? Let's get the. You know, that's kind of how I. Our family tends to deal with things, but in so many Mormon families, things can just go major things. Kind of like the elephant in the room. Major things can just go undiscussed. How. How did that happen in your family?
Kelsey Edwards [01:04:13] You know, I think my parents had plenty of discussions about it. I know that my mom and my dad had lots of their own arguments and lots of their own fights over it that I would hear, but I wasn't.
John Dehlin [01:04:23] You could feel attention.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:24] Absolutely. You did have a sense that there was. I was curious if you were blindsided or if you had a sense that things were difficult between them.
Kelsey Edwards [01:04:33] Yeah, I knew that things were difficult. I didn't expect what happened to happen, I'll say that, but I was blindsided in that way. But my. I knew that things were rocky with my dad and he like, was going through so much of his own stuff that like, he just wasn't that involved in our lives for quite a long period. And so I know that my parents fought a lot about the church. They fought a lot about some of the things my dad was battling on his own and those conversations were taking place. But I also wasn't privy to them as like a 15 year old, you
Margi Dehlin [01:05:03] know, that makes sense.
Kelsey Edwards [01:05:04] Like they're protecting the children and stuff like that. So I saw the aftermath of it. I saw my dad not going to church or I saw him, you know, hiding certain things or whatever, but I didn't Ever like get to have that conversation with him and. And you know, I think that there was been. There was so much disappointment for me at that time. I don't even know that that would have been helpful because I judged him so much, you know, I really did. It was really hard.
John Dehlin [01:05:30] So he would have felt massive disapproval from your mom and from you.
Kelsey Edwards [01:05:35] And I think he did already. Like, I think he really did feel that disapproval from all of us. Even if I didn't explicitly say was still there. You know, it was definitely like an undertone in our home, you know, with the tension and the fighting and the lack of church going, because like you said, we were so strong in the church and so faithful and so devoted. To have your father like the head of your household not be. That was really hard on our whole family. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:05] Yeah, I can. That. I'm so sorry. It sounds really, really hard.
Kelsey Edwards [01:06:09] Thank you.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:10] Especially that time of life too. So I'm curious, how did you process that at the time? I think sometimes when you're hit with things in a. In a. That are kind of really life changing in a way that is disruptive and sad and we oftentimes create beliefs at the time with the best that we have, and oftentimes not even cognitive, they can be emotional beliefs, things that are created in that moment that unconsciously we think about ourselves or the world or. I'm curious, do you remember yourself at that time and how you processed it and maybe what emerged for you?
Kelsey Edwards [01:06:57] Yeah, very much so. And that that's been a wound I've had to heal from is because at that age I really believed it was my fault. Like when your dad leaves and you like, you know, you've like no concept that that's gonna happen. Like, my world was shattered, you know, Like I came home from church that Sunday and I like, I have this like memory ingrained in my brain forever of like me going into my bedroom, closing my bedroom door and like just sliding down the door and like sobbing and thinking to myself, like, this is my fault. Like I did this. And if I maybe had been more loving or more accepting of his journey and where he's at and like his pain and his struggles, like, maybe, maybe we wouldn't be here. And of course that's not true, but like your 15 year old brain only knows so much, you know, and yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, that was very, like very painful and a lot of, A lot of shame with that. Like this, this whole like family falling apart. Like, what could I have done differently to stop it?
John Dehlin [01:08:00] Has your dad been able to give you since any insight into what was going on for him at the time? Because it's so. I. I think it's okay in the timeline if you can tell us what he was.
Kelsey Edwards [01:08:10] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:08:10] What he was dealing with at the time.
Kelsey Edwards [01:08:12] Yeah, yeah. And I only discovered this a few years ago, so it's been carrying this weight for a very long time. But, like, my dad was in the military, as I mentioned, and something I didn't know is that he's had severe injuries his whole life, and I did know that. I did not know that he was actually very strongly addicted to opioids and, like, painkillers, and that was affecting every part of his life. Every part of my life, you know, and it was, like, just. Yeah. Very impactful for my entire childhood. And now all the years that I see that my dad was not present, he was not around, he was not aware, he was not connected to our family. It's because he was addicted, you know? And was it.
John Dehlin [01:08:57] Was it OxyContin?
Kelsey Edwards [01:08:59] OxyContin and. Oh, gosh, Fentanyl. And, like, there's another one that I can't remember the name of. Something with a K, maybe. I don't know.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:09] We.
Kelsey Edwards [01:09:09] Yeah. And I'm so proud of him because he's done a lot of work not to jump the timeline, but, you know, he's done a lot of recovery now, and he's. He's been sober for quite a while, and I'm very proud of him for that. But, yeah, at the time, it was very. It was very painful to not have that understanding and, like, to not be privy to those conversations about things my dad was battling with and why he was so absent from my life. And, you know, he made a lot of decisions that were very hurtful to me and to my brothers and to my mom. And, you know, it is what it is. But I am really proud of the work that he's been doing to. To heal and to. Absolutely not. Again, not to give away that part of it, but. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:09:48] Was there a faith crisis element to it, or was it just addiction for my dad? Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:09:54] Yeah, I think there was. I think. I think it was a combination of both. Yeah, I think. I think, you know, he.
John Dehlin [01:09:59] Do you know anything about what. What he learned or what he found out at the time?
Kelsey Edwards [01:10:04] A lot of it was the fact that my dad couldn't actually sit in church for hours at a time because of his back injuries. Right. And he would. He. So he wouldn't go to church for the full length of time. He really struggled with the way that people talked about him in Our Word at the time. Like, there was a lot of gossip from church leaders. There was gossip from, like, church members. People talk about, like, oh, yeah, you know, you see him leave again, or, you know, you see him not coming to church again. Like, and there was, like, some bishops, I think, that were very unkind to my dad and that were very, like, abusive in that way. And just a lot of. A lot of pain. Like, he had a lot of pain from members. And that's. That's his story. You know, it's. It's like, it's not my story. It's his, and I respect that and his own journey.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:49] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [01:10:50] But that was a lot of. It was just like, the pain from the. From the people. And I think he likes. Slowly, that pain just built up over and over the years. Combined with the addiction, combined with the tension between my mom and him, and, you know, his. His world was falling apart.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:06] Absolutely. I mean, the. How debilitating. Chronic pain. I can just. I mean, what a beast.
Kelsey Edwards [01:11:13] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:14] Really. And was that as a side. Was the back. He had back pain? Is that what you were saying? Was that something he always had, or was that something that he actually developed in his service in the military? Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:11:30] Very severely injured in the military.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:31] So serving us, he got some injuries that then were so painful. He was. Yeah, that's. I'm really. Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:11:40] Yeah. He's a disabled vet, you know, and I'm like, that's. I always, like, make the point to thank him, like, thank you for your service and for what you gave. Because I know that it has been. It's. It's cost him his whole life, you know, Life of pain.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:54] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:11:55] So I'm going to. I'm going to plug this. I'm going to. Every time this comes up, But I just finished a book called Empire of Pain, and it's about how this family, called the Sackler family out of New York, bought and grew a company called Purdue Pharma.
Kelsey Edwards [01:12:10] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:12:11] That produced OxyContin and intentionally created an addiction crisis across the country. It's an amazing book.
Kelsey Edwards [01:12:20] Oh, my gosh.
John Dehlin [01:12:21] And I want. I want to. I desire all to receive it, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:25] And they made all the monies.
John Dehlin [01:12:26] Yeah. It's a phenomenal book. And it. There was. There was greed and intentionality behind a nationwide and even a global opiate crisis. And I just. I want to call everyone's attention.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:39] Yeah. It involved the fda, right, didn't it?
John Dehlin [01:12:42] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:42] Like, it was.
John Dehlin [01:12:43] They were able to Persuade the FDA to approve things that shouldn't have been approved.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:46] What?
John Dehlin [01:12:47] They were able to buy off. Yeah, they were able to buy off, you know, researchers and. And physicians to. To tell everybody, even doctors. They were able to influence doctors to. To tell patients this isn't addictive. These opiates aren't addictive. You know, they're. Less than 1% get addicted, and this is extremely safe medicine when the evidence showed it was two to three times more addictive than. Than previous opiates. So it's. I. And if your dad hasn't had a chance to read the book, it's a phenomenal book. And it's just something we. Because hundreds of hundreds of thousands of Americans died in this opiate crisis in Utah, had a massive, and probably still does have a. Have a massive opiate addiction within orthodox believing Mormonism.
Kelsey Edwards [01:13:39] Right.
John Dehlin [01:13:39] Well, so. So anyway, I just. I'm always going to call attention to that.
Kelsey Edwards [01:13:44] Yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
John Dehlin [01:13:45] I mean, your dad was a victim.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:47] He was a total victim.
Kelsey Edwards [01:13:48] Yeah, absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:49] Breaking.
John Dehlin [01:13:50] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:13:50] Dad, you got to read that book.
John Dehlin [01:13:51] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:13:52] Wow.
John Dehlin [01:13:53] Okay. But then you. You didn't know about the addiction at the time, and you didn't know about his faith crisis at the time. So you processed that as. As a perfectionist, as a believing Mormon perfectionist. Would you. You internalize that as maybe somewhat your fault?
Kelsey Edwards [01:14:12] Totally my fault.
John Dehlin [01:14:12] So what was that like for you?
Kelsey Edwards [01:14:14] That was really heavy. You know, it was really painful. And I. Yeah, there's so much shame and so much guilt and, like, I could have done more. I could have been more loving. I could have been more accepting. I could have, like, this is all. All my fault. My dad left, you know, and. And that was really hard. And for what it's worth, like, my family, my brothers, my two brothers, my mom and I, we became very close. Like, they are my best friends. You know, I'm very close with my mom, very close with my brothers. And that time, like, we. All we had left was each other, really. You know, we were. There's a lot of poverty. Like, we didn't have money. Like, we relied a lot on, like, the church for help and government assistance for help. And, like, that was a really tough time, but we also grew so much closer, the four of us. So, yeah, those years were very painful. That. That's. That's the best way to describe them. Like, you know, my dad had been. He was with another woman, and so he ended up marrying that woman. And there was a lot of pain in that. And kind of like, I was still A teenager. So visitation was still forced at the time and a lot of pain there. And it was just. It was really tumultuous. Like, that's the best. It was traumatic. It really was. You know, and I. I've done a lot of healing, but, like, it was really hard at the time.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:35] So, yeah, you have an eating disorder, you're struggling with an eating disorder as well. Then you have that happen and you're a teenager as well. Just trying to kind of.
Kelsey Edwards [01:15:46] Yeah, that's a lot of responsibility and really having to step up to the plate and be my mom's other half, you know, like, really having to kind of co parent my little brother and like, help out in ways that you wouldn't typically expect a teenager to help out because she didn't have a spouse. You know, my brother had. My older brother had gone on his mission shortly after. So he was not present for a lot of, like, the weight of this transitional period. So it was like my little brother, my mom and I. And yeah, I was. I was kind of like a second parent. Like, I grew up very quickly.
Margi Dehlin [01:16:18] Wow, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:16:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:16:23] So some who are listening would probably, especially orthodox Mormons are like, well, that was in the church. Like, it was the acting culture. Like, you've got your dad working to support the child actors, your mom's probably gone a lot going to LA to get you gigs. Like, what if somebody says it was as much the acting culture within your family that tore your family apart as anything?
Kelsey Edwards [01:16:46] I mean, I would disagree. 100 had nothing to do with, like, our acting careers. Like, those are things that we did and we loved and my parents were in full support of that. But the. I think the real. Yeah, the real thing here was, like you said, the addiction and the fact that I think hopefully there's more of a culture of acceptance now. But at the time, there wasn't so much. It was like, you're not, you know, you can't. You're not like, meeting the. The commitment that we made to each other. You're not meeting the. The expectation I have of you as a father, like, all of those things. And that, like, really drove a wedge in our family, you know, And I don't blame my mom at all. Like, my mom's dealing with her own things and she had. She dealt with everything in such a wonderful way. But I take responsibility for my part in that, which is that I. I judged my dad a lot. Like, I had a lot of, like, shame and guilt and like, that created a Rift. Because I. I didn't appreciate him not being a present priesthood holder in my life, you know, and that was. Yeah, that was really hard. But no, I would not say it was the acting culture at all. I would say it was a combination of things, the church being one of them, but also like my dad's addictions, my dad's own struggles, my, you know, the tension that my parents were facing. You know, there's a whole. It's a whole bunch of things. It's like, sure, it takes a bunch of things to disintegrate a marriage and a family.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:12] Right. Which is normally the case. Right. Complicated.
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:16] But in Mormonism, it's particularly catastrophic because one of the selling points of Mormonism is eternal families.
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:21] Right.
John Dehlin [01:18:22] And your parents got married in the temple, which was an eternal commitment. So can divorce is always. Well, divorce can often be terrible for kids and for parents, but in a Mormon context, it probably feels even more catastrophic.
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:39] Yeah, I would say so for sure. Because, yeah, your eternal family is been destroyed, you know, and you don't have a priesthood holder to lead your family anymore. And yeah, it's a temple marriage that has been ended. And that's like really, really sad. So I feel like that was. That was definitely like an added pain of like, our eternal family is broken now.
Divorce, Single Parenting, and Church Stigma
Margi Dehlin [01:19:02] I think framing also is another layer to that. When divorce is really judged as unequivocally kind of seen as is failure. Right. As opposed to sometimes necessary or sometimes actually really important. So I do think framing has. Has a lot to do with how, you know, how we think about ourselves or others as they go through that as well as there with. Because it happens within Mormonism, and this is kind of part of the conditioning. I also think there's an inherent message of, like a failure of character like, that if you had just a little bit. If you were a better person, or if you had somehow tried harder, or then you wouldn't have failed. And I think those things add suffering to something that, you know, there's inherent suffering too, but those narratives definitely do not serve us.
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:00] Yeah, the failure thing is totally valid. And, you know, I always felt like the black sheep, like in the ward or like, you know, when your family is like, so righteous and so well known. My mom was a seminary teacher, you know, like, my dad was the Elders Quorum president for a long time. When your family is very significant in the ward and then your family splinters, like, it wasn't as common, at least where I was, that to have a divorce or like to have. To have A divorced family or whatever. And I always felt, like, so embarrassed about that. Like, yeah, my parents are divorced. Yeah. When my dad left the church. Yeah. When, you know, I was like, this is so embarrassing. Like, it's always somebody else. It's not you. It's not your family. But it was. It was my family.
John Dehlin [01:20:39] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember just as a Mormon kid, thinking, will anyone want to marry me? Do all the other families judge me? We've failed as a Mormon family. I remember feeling a lot of pressure.
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:20:52] And judgment.
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:53] Yeah. That's so true. I hadn't even thought about that. But, like, the way that it kind of spirals back on you, like, well, I come from a broken home, so then will people see me as broken? Maybe no one will want to date me because they see me as broken. Well, she doesn't have a dad. Well, she. Her parents are divorced. Like, her dad left the church. Like, no one's gonna want to touch that. Like, that's too messy. Yeah. Those are all. Those are. I haven't thought about those thoughts. They were definitely there.
John Dehlin [01:21:17] Not to mention, you're constantly bombarded with, like, songs like, families can be together forever, and, you know, families are the most important thing. And then you're. You're seeing your own family blow apart. You know, it's not like there's this culture of, like, hey, some. Some marriages work out and some don't, and all families are equal. It's just. It's an unmitigated disaster when a Mormon family breaks up, Period.
Kelsey Edwards [01:21:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:42] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:21:42] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:21:43] That's not always helpful. So. So really quickly, I. I don't even know if there's something really to discuss here, but I just want to pause and note that because the Mormon Church claims to be God's one true church, and because the Mormon Church claims that its leaders speak to God and Jesus and are literally the mouthpieces for God and Jesus, I hold the church a little. I tend to hold the church a little bit more responsible, especially when you think about how much time we spent growing up in the church and hearing instruction. And this kind of really crystallized for me when. When I found out that the Unitarian Universalist had sex education for teenagers, I thought, whoa. Because, like, so often we're taught faith and repentance and baptism and the ordinances and authority and priesthood, and you're just taught that over and over and over again as a Mormon kid. And once you start deconstructing it, you think about, wow, how could the church. How could I have spent that time in My church actually learning useful, valuable things. And that's when I think about like eating disorders and body image or addiction or sexuality. Ways that the church could have used that time where we're sitting there three hours a Sunday and then seminary ways the church could have used all that time to actually promote healthy eating, healthy body image, healthy positive mental health, to learn about addictions and become educated where the church just is silent on all those issues. Have you thought about whether your family, your dad's addiction, your eating disorders maybe could have been better served if the church had, had, had spent your learning time learning actually valuable, more valuable things?
Kelsey Edwards [01:23:35] Honestly, I have never, I never thought about that because the time that I was in the church, I was so passionate about what I was learning, you know. Yeah, but that is a very interesting point that you make that like, that you have. At the time it was three hours, you know, Now I know it's changed to two, but you know, you have three hours of people's time and attention and like the different ways that you could utilize that to, to teach people about a variety of things, you know, And I, I totally, I totally see that, that point, that's never something that dawned on me because I guess I just, I loved the gospel and I love the scripture so much and I loved what I was learning. But, you know, yeah, I think, I think that the church could definitely be served from having. And hopefully maybe it's going this way, I don't know, but like more of a space of acceptance for people with addictions or for people that are dealing with eating disorders or like, you know, having that, like that kind of education and open mindedness and love for mental health and you know, all sorts of struggles.
John Dehlin [01:24:33] So yeah, like I could just imagine young, you know, young men or young women's lessons. This is healthy eating, this is healthy body image. These are signs to look out for. And if you, if you start to be having these behaviors, here's, here's the type of therapist you can see in the type of treatment or, or with addiction. This is how to, instead of like word of wisdom, obey it. And if you don't obey it, you're evil and, or porn. Like, oh, if you look at porn, you're evil and you're a bad person. Here's what drug addiction is and here's how prevalent it is and here's how to know the signs for it, and here's how to love and treat someone who's experiencing it. Wouldn't it be amazing if the church could incorporate mental health best practices into its curriculum.
Kelsey Edwards [01:25:19] I could see. I could totally see the benefit in that. Yeah, I've never thought about that, but now that you bring that up, I'm like, that. That would be very valuable education. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:25:27] Some might say I'm asking too much of the church.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:29] Margi, I was curious, kind of, if you're done veering back to your story around kind of, you know, what your social world was like during this time as a teen and if you dated at all and experiences during that time.
Kelsey Edwards [01:25:48] Yeah, that's funny. I. I did kind of date, but also kind of not because I was, again, so worried about, like, the perfectionism. And. And when I say perfectionism, it's more about, like, being righteous. Like, that. That was really the goal was like, I want to do everything the most right way. And to me, dating was like, oh, that's a slippery slope. You know, there was a boy that I really liked when I was 14, and, like, we'd gone to, like, some steak dances and stuff like that. And I remember it was, like, a steak activity, and we were going ice skating, and I would not even let him hold my hand while we were ice skating, because that's, like, a threat. Yeah. It's inappropriate. Like, we can't hold hands. We're ice skating. But, like, I wouldn't let him hold my hand. And there was, like, several other boys growing up, either in the homeschool group or, like, in my ward or stake or whatever that I'd had crushes on, but, like, I was, like, the boundaries were very, very firm. I never kissed anybody. Like, you know, I don't think I really even held hands with anyone even after, like, the age of 16, which. It's like, it's okay to date then. Or at least that's what it used to be when I was a teenager. Yeah, no, my dating years were, like, very, very, like, dating within the safe confines of, like, not breaking the commandment kind of thing. Never holding hands, never going far at all. But. Yeah, it's kind of funny. I never had a boyfriend. I never had, you know, up until, like, my first boyfriend was after my mission, so.
John Dehlin [01:27:16] Oh, wow.
Kelsey Edwards [01:27:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:18] So kind of this typical Christian or Mormon purity culture.
Kelsey Edwards [01:27:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:22] That was a real thing for you, for sure.
Kelsey Edwards [01:27:23] Yeah. And. And whether that was, like, you know, exasperated by myself or whatever, like, it was very profound for me. And I was. I was like, very.
John Dehlin [01:27:32] Your goal was what? Just to not.
Kelsey Edwards [01:27:35] Not do anything, you know, like, follow the first Strength of Youth pamphlet to a T. And the meaning. What meaning? Like, just be really Righteous and. And like, not hold hands or not kiss anyone or not. Not like, like not have a boyfriend, not date.
John Dehlin [01:27:49] Like, I don't have any. Anything that approaches sexual activity, I guess. Yeah, a lot of chastity stuff.
Kelsey Edwards [01:27:54] Yeah. I mean, that was so far away from my radar that I, you know, that wasn't even. Yeah, like, I wasn't. I didn't really even know what sex was, you know, because there's no, no like, education for me at that time. But like, you know, it was all about, like just being as pure and. And virtuous. That's a good word. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:28:13] So at that point, it sounds like you had judged it kind of more of a distraction or more of a risk. Not needful. Yeah. Like, you sound in a way, like, very serious.
Kelsey Edwards [01:28:26] Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:28:28] Would you say that, like, kind of serious and very single minded about. Kind of. Would you say that?
Kelsey Edwards [01:28:33] Absolutely. Yeah, I would definitely say I was very serious and very single minded and like, very like temptation avoidant, if that makes sense. Like, anything that could, like, be a temptation. I was like, I don't want it. No, like, and this, like, boy that I liked wanted to hold my hand so badly. And I was like, absolutely not. Like, it's not even. It's not even a temptation that we're not gonna go there because that, you know, then we're gonna kiss and that's. We're too young for that and that's not okay. And you know, then. Then we'll want to date and like, we're too young to date and. Yeah, it was. And that's kind of like when I lead, when I talk about being like, like super righteous or super, like black and white, super in the extremes. It was like I almost was able to like, turn off those parts of me. Like, I. Temptation wasn't really a thing for me. It was just crazy. But like, my mom and I would talk about that a lot too. Like how, like, you're just not like, tempted by things. Like, you're just not. Things are not as hard for you as they are for other people. And I'm like, well, that's probably because I've like, turned it off the switch, you know, like prioritized righteousness.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:31] Interesting. That is so interesting because that is what you do with an eating disorder too. Right? You switch off hunger over time.
Kelsey Edwards [01:29:41] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:42] Right. So I'm hearing kind of. It's sort of like there are parts to yourself that you're. You're sort of shutting down.
Kelsey Edwards [01:29:49] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:50] Is that right?
Kelsey Edwards [01:29:51] Yeah, probably. Probably like those natural Natural man tendencies or those natural feelings to like be hungry or to date or whatever it might be. Like those, those, those were not, not parts of me that I allowed myself to have access to, you know, they were really. Yeah. Really shut. Shut down and very single minded. That's a good word for it.
John Dehlin [01:30:09] I guess the good news is you didn't experience a lot of that purity shaming that a lot of Mormons do when they're teens.
Kelsey Edwards [01:30:16] True. Because that was never a temptation for me.
John Dehlin [01:30:18] Yeah, you just shut it all down.
Kelsey Edwards [01:30:20] Yeah, it's just like I was like, okay, dress super modest. Like, hide your body and clothes, like really, really baggy clothes. Never show anything, you know, and never, never hold hands. Never like, never even hint in that direction. So that was. I didn't really ever experience the purity shaming because I, I was always so
Margi Dehlin [01:30:38] pure and you know, like, there's loss in both those scenarios.
Kelsey Edwards [01:30:43] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:45] So.
Kelsey Edwards [01:30:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:30:46] Yeah. And, and the other thing, I'd say this happened to me when, when my parents got divorced and then when my siblings, some of my siblings started to make bad, bad decisions. From a Mormon standpoint, it super turbocharged. Strengthened my commitment to the church. And I'm wondering how that was for your family. Your dad leaves, your family's like almost homeless.
Kelsey Edwards [01:31:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:09] I wonder how that positively reinforced your commitment and faithfulness to the Mormon church.
Kelsey Edwards [01:31:15] Yeah, absolutely. Because the church was, the church was like a, it was a consistent thing in my life. You know, it was like a, like a, a post of like, okay, I can lean on this. The church was taking care of us financially as well, and which I'm grateful for. And, and I feel like there was a lot of. Yeah, the church was like a safe place for me and my family and my mom, and, and it definitely did reinforce my testimony. Actually seeing my dad leave strengthened my testimony, you know, and I was like, okay, well, I believe this even more so now, and I'm even more passionate about, about this. And I really relied on, you know, Christ and the Savior to like, pull me through this really difficult time with my family. And I remember one of the things I would always say is like, well, maybe I don't have this access to this relationship with my earthly father, but at least I have a relationship with my heavenly father, you know, and that was kind of like a consolation prize for me in, in a lot of ways. And, and honestly, I found a lot of, a lot of solace in like the leadership, the, the men that were leaders in the church because I felt like I lacked that so strongly in My own home that I really like relied on the, the male leaders. Like, like I look to them as like father figures. Like there's this time of my life as a teenager where I was like constantly scanning like who's my father figure? Like where is my father figure? You know, and I found a lot of that within the church. I found a lot of that within the men in the church and like, like the bishops or like the, you know, the stake presidents or, or even you know, other leadership positions later on. But, but yeah, that, that time of like so much turmoil really like drew me towards the church for sure.
John Dehlin [01:32:55] What's hard about that as I'm thinking about your dad, is I know that addiction is often tied, at least correlated sometimes with a loss of community and a sense of loneliness and despair and kind of self medicating pain and distress and anxiety. I know there's a chronic pain element to it but, but like losing your wife, losing the respect of your wife and kids and then having your kids start looking other men as their father figures and you know, he made his choices. But yeah, I imagine all the kids looking for new father figures wasn't great for your dad emotional state.
Kelsey Edwards [01:33:32] I'm sure that was not easy for him. Yeah. But to be honest, he also wasn't really that present in my life at that time. So he really. Yeah, he really did. And, and I think that that probably hurts him, but also it's like, well, that's kind of the consequences. Yeah, exactly. And, and yeah, I know my mom, my mom did the best to, that she could to, to play both roles for us and to like be, be the dual parent and you know, to navigate that situation with grace and love and, and yeah, it's hard all around. And I didn't have this perspective when I was a teenager. Like by the way, I was really angry at my dad and I was so like there was so much love and companionship between my mom and I and that closeness really built the anger towards my dad. And it's only now in these adult years that I've been able to. Oh, both of my parents are so worthy of love. They both did their best with the knowledge they had at the time, you know, and I can't, I can't hold that against them for the rest of my life. Otherwise I'll be walking around with anger and pain and I don't want that. So yeah, I'm.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:37] One thing that I'm just really grateful is coming out, particularly in your story is this idea of single parenting and how incredibly Difficult. It is. And that's a podcast I feel like I would really love to do is exploring themes and, you know, shining light on lots of different stories with regard to that, particularly women who are. Who are all of a sudden placed in a situation to financially provide for and show up in their homes as, you know, the emotional support and, you know, all of that. So I'm really, really grateful that that's coming out a bit in your story.
John Dehlin [01:35:21] Yeah. Because your mom. It's so true, Margi, because your mom, number one, wasn't taught as a Mormon to develop her own career, and number two, she was investing in her kids in their careers. So your mom all of a sudden wakes up and she's a provider. How does that work?
Kelsey Edwards [01:35:36] That's exactly what happened. Yeah, my mom. My mom gave everything to us, you know, her kids. She spent her life homeschooling us, taking us to all of our acting stuff. Like we were her life, you know, and she didn't have a career of her own. She went to byu, Idaho, for a little bit, but she eventually, like, dropped out because she got married and everything. So, yeah, she. She woke up and, like you said, was expected to be the sole provider of our family with no income, and that was really hard. And, you know, she did. She did everything to try to make things work and still give us opportunities, even though we had had no money. I mean, she would trade, like, her time. So eventually, in those high school years, I started doing ballroom, and I wanted to do more lessons and go on, like, certain camps and stuff. And there were times when she couldn't afford the lessons, and so she would trade services. Like, she would give her time, like cleaning or helping, you know, the teacher or the instructor or. Like, I had a ballroom trip that we went on, and she's like, I can't pay for Kelsey to go on this, but I will run this trip in exchange for Kelsey to go.
John Dehlin [01:36:36] And this is. But you moved to Utah by this point?
Kelsey Edwards [01:36:38] At this point, yes. Yeah, that's a little bit. But Provo.
John Dehlin [01:36:41] Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [01:36:41] Yeah. But, you know, that happened in.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:44] It's amazing.
Kelsey Edwards [01:36:45] Yeah, that happened in Texas. And when we moved to Provo, and she just. Yeah, she. She's an incredible woman, and I have so much to thank her for, for that because it was not easy dealing with that. We had, you know, bishop storehouse orders all the time and help from the church. And then when we moved to Provo, that was kind of like. Like our opportunity to start over, you know, and she got accepted to BYU and she went and got her bachelor's
John Dehlin [01:37:10] degree in social work while being a single mom.
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:13] Yep. Yep.
John Dehlin [01:37:14] She's attending byu.
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:15] She's attending byu. I mean, scholarships and government assistance, like, paid for our life, you know.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:21] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:21] And we stayed with some family friends at the time. We were living with my grandpa for a while, bouncing around from house to house, you know, and my mom was going to byu. I did my senior year of high school in Provo.
John Dehlin [01:37:32] Which high school?
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:33] Provo High and Tempu. Actually, I did both. I did. I danced at Tim Few, but I did a college program at Provo High. Kind of weird, but yeah. And then she eventually went on to get her master's degree, and now she's a really respected and very, very good sex therapist. She's a sex and trauma therapist.
John Dehlin [01:37:49] What's her name so that we can get her clients?
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:51] Annie Briner. She's incredible. Yeah. She's helped so many, many people and is really just an amazing.
John Dehlin [01:37:57] She's a licensed sex therapist.
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:58] She's cool. Yeah. Yeah. She's just. Yeah. And she's. She's one of the best in the field. I'm just saying. And she also specializes in brain spotting and EMDR and other forms of trauma therapy. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:11] So needed.
Kelsey Edwards [01:38:13] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:13] Cool. All right. Well, if you're in Utah and you need a good therapist, slash sex therapist, slash trauma therapist.
Kelsey Edwards [01:38:18] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:38:19] Andy Briner.
Kelsey Edwards [01:38:19] Andy Briner. Yeah. Whether you're in or out of the church, Annie. A, N, N, I, E. Briner.
John Dehlin [01:38:24] Spelled how?
Kelsey Edwards [01:38:25] B, R Y, N E, R. Okay. Yep.
John Dehlin [01:38:27] Got it.
Kelsey Edwards [01:38:27] Yeah. All right.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:28] So if we were going to go back to kind of your. Your timeline a little bit, I'm hearing a couple ways of coping emerging in teen years. One kind of being, because I do think eating disorders do oftentimes emerge initially from trying to cope with, you know, painful things. Right. And also this sense of kind of almost a double down when it comes to church. Right. And trying to be perfect and trying to do all the things and do all the things that. At all the times optimally, would you agree that. That, that that feels true. And then are there any other ways that you coped that you haven't mentioned that you remember kind of really turning to during that time? And I think it's interesting because you know how we were talking with eating disorders, how you get a lot of oftentimes this positive reinforcement you do, I think oftentimes in church, too, when you kind of are. What would we say, more vigilant or even if it's kind of hitting scrupulosity. Oftentimes you'll be positively reinforced in church and seen as super spiritual and seen as like, you know, very, very valiant. And so you get a. It's just interesting that both of those ways that you're kind of showing up are getting probably. You're probably getting a lot of. Which can be confusing, I think, at times. But anyway.
Kelsey Edwards [01:39:58] Yeah, no, that's. That's so true. And that was my whole story. It's like the valiant. The valiantness, like, being so valiant and so righteous. And. Was there anything else you were going to say?
Margi Dehlin [01:40:08] Yeah, just if there was anything else that really, during the. The teen years and these turbulent times that you kind of turned to in an effort to control, stabilize, or process, hold really complicated emotions that, that we haven't touched on.
Kelsey Edwards [01:40:24] Yeah, I would say that the. The coping mechanism primarily was probably like the eating disorder and then really heavily leaning into church, for sure. I was, I was so adamant about studying my scriptures every single day. I. You know, my mom still talks about it to this day, like, coming in and, like, seeing me. I've fallen asleep studying my scriptures. I'm falling asleep praying, like, my whole life. You know, I was. I did that very, like, consistently. And I think the scriptures were kind of like a lifeline for me. Like, I, like, leaned into my spirituality, leaned into the gospel even more. So before I was in seminary, I had perfect seminary attendance. I did not miss a day. I also was like, perfect scripture mastery. I memorized them every single year, 100%. I was the top scripture master in my class. Everybody knew it. You know, it was just like. Like an opportunity to, like, how can I dive even more fully into these roles and these titles and cope with this? So, yeah, like, the script. Scrupulosity is a new word for me, but it makes so much sense in the way that I was as a teenager. And just the intensity of, like, like you said, like, things. So many things in my life were slipping out of control. You know, things with my parents and, like, my childhood, and I even stopped acting at that time, which was really hard. And because there was so much going on with my family, I wasn't acting. I kind of switched into ballroom. And I did quite a bit of ballroom dancing in Texas and. And things like that. And there was just so much that I was out of, not in control of, and I could control my food and I could control my spirituality and, like, how righteous I was and, you know, all the callings that I held and how. Right. How well I held my callings and the stake youth Committee and, And things like that. And yeah, it was just a. A time of a lot of extremes and coping mechanisms.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:18] Yeah, that makes sense, though.
John Dehlin [01:42:21] And I just want to say sometimes we highlight some of the more difficult aspects of Mormonism, in part because the church only talks about how amazing it is all the time. And so there's no other place where the dark sides of Mormonism can be discussed. But if I'm just trying to look at your story objectively, it sounds like the church played a very positive role both in supporting your family when it was falling apart financially, temporally, you know, with community, but also giving your family a sense, you and your family, a sense of identity and meaning and purpose and spirituality and morality.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:56] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:42:57] When things could have really gone south. Right. I mean, some people, when they go homeless, they really go homeless. It sounds like between your family and the church, the, The Mormon church really showed up for you and, and was a blessing to your family.
Kelsey Edwards [01:43:10] Yeah. And that, that is true. And, and I, you know, I think that's part of why, like, I, I maybe feel less anger than a lot of people that are in this position is like, the church was a positive for me for most of my life. Like, obviously, yes, there's pain with, like, the perfectionism in those parts of my life that I feel like were amplified by certain teachings and things like that. But, but the, The. The gospel was kind of a lifeline for me, you know, and, like, I really, I really, like, held on to it. And I loved who I was when I was in the church. Church. I loved gospel. It gave me, like you said, a sense of purpose. It gave me a sense of identity. It gave me a sense of meaning. And when I didn't really have a lot of other things to hold on to, I held on to the church and then the financial support, too. Like, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that, because this church did support our family for a long time, whether through, like, scholarships that my mom got from BYU or like, funding directly from the church or like, you know, and then government assistant distance as well. But, yeah, there, There were a lot of ways in, in, like, which the church did show up for my family. And I, I do. I am grateful for that, you know.
John Dehlin [01:44:15] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:44:18] Yeah.
Moving to Provo and Pursuing Dance
Margi Dehlin [01:44:19] So you had mentioned moving senior year, right, to. Did you say Provo?
Kelsey Edwards [01:44:25] Provo, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:26] So what was that like coming from.
John Dehlin [01:44:28] Yeah. California.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:29] I'm curious. The difference and how that kind of hit you at that time. Time, the differences or.
John Dehlin [01:44:34] And it's not just Salt Lake, Utah. It's It's Utah County. Provo is pretty intense. Between Rexburg, Idaho, and Provo, Utah, it kind of doesn't get more intense, right?
Kelsey Edwards [01:44:44] Yeah, No, I would agree with that. And not only was I moving to Provo, Utah, my senior year of high school, it was also my first year of high school ever because I was homeschooled my whole life.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:54] Oh, such a good point. Wow, that's big.
Kelsey Edwards [01:44:57] Yeah, it was a lot. I didn't even. I really, truly did not know how to work a locker, and I was too embarrassed to ask anybody how to work a locker. So I just didn't use my locker my entire senior year because I didn't know how to do it. Like, I remember I was in, like, my first. My first class. I ended up because I was homeschooled. I did not, like, go into high school, but I did enroll into a college program through UVU and. Which is, like, it's called distance learning, where you can basically take a UVU class at the high school campus. So that's what I did. I started taking college credits in high school. And I was sitting in this class, and the teacher passed out, like, a stack of papers. I was at the front of the row, and I was like, I don't. I have a lot of paper. I don't want to do all these papers. And I did not even realize, like, oh, you pass it back. Like, I've never been in a classroom setting to know that when you get a stack of papers at the front of the class, you pass it back. So funny. Like, that was just like, such a. Such a wow, I'm homeschooled, you know, moment for me. But, yeah, it was. It was hard. It was definitely hard. I was between two schools because I did my college program at Provo High, and I decided to dance on the varsity ballroom team at Temp View. And being split between two campuses was hard because I wasn't fully able to, like, really develop strong friendships at either place. You know, you always see movies about, like, kids eating alone in the hallway, and I. I had no frame of reference for that until I lived it, you know, And I. I did eat alone in the hallway a lot because, you know, people had really established friend groups. And I was coming in from my first year. Everyone's in their senior year. They've all grown up together. They've known each other since they were babies, you know, and I'm brand new kid on the block here, and. And my ballroom team was very helpful. I did make some good friends on my Ballroom team that were there for me. And I. I did find, like, a. Somewhat, of course, community there and in some of my college classes, but it was definitely a lonely time. Yeah, it was. It was hard. And. And with so much change. Yeah, yeah. And still, I was 17 at the time, so there was still visitation. I still had to fly back to Texas to see my dad and to deal with kind of the stressful situation with his. That whole dynamic that I don't want to get into. But, yeah, that was. That was really hard.
John Dehlin [01:47:07] So oftentimes, parents aren't allowed to move out of a state if the other parent is still in the state. They just kind of have to stay together. So your parents must have worked something out there.
Kelsey Edwards [01:47:18] And that, to my dad's credit, despite all the pain and everything that was happening then, that was because my dad wanted me to have an opportunity to do ballroom on a high school team. Like, in Texas, it's only at studios, so I was dancing at some studios and stuff like that. But I dreamed of going to a high school ballroom team and competing professionally in that way and, like, having that kind of instruction. Because in. In Utah, ballroom is a sport here. Like, it's taken as seriously as. As, you know, basketball or whatever. And I. I, like, dreamed of that. Like, I wanted that so badly. And my dad, you know, I still remember the conversation I had with him, like, driving home from one of our visitations and saying, like, dad, I know this is gonna hurt you, but I. I would really like to go to Utah, and I would really like to. To have an experience to be on a ballroom team in Utah my senior year. And I know how painful that was for him. I know how hard that was for him. But he said yes. He gave my family the permission to leave, you know. Wow.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:13] I love that you expressed a need to your parent as a teen. That's something. Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:48:20] Thank you. That was definitely. You know, my mom. My mom helped me with a lot of that, too. You know, just like the. The teaching me of the importance of that and.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:28] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:48:29] And knowing, like, this is. This is the time, like, if it's gonna happen, it has to be now for me to have this experience.
John Dehlin [01:48:36] Kudos to your dad for that.
Kelsey Edwards [01:48:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:39] One of the things I've noticed as a. As you know, we followed so youo Think youk Can Dance as a family for many years.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:45] Like, every single season of so youo Think youk Can Dance has a Mormon in it. Now, some of that was Benji Schwimmer and his family's influence in the early years. But like every episode there's someone from Provo or Springville or, you know, somewhere down in Utah county, in other words. And BYU's ballroom dance team is world famous, not to mention the young ambassadors at byu. So like there's this performance culture within Mormonism, performing arts culture, and specifically in Utah county that's actually world class. And so I wondered if that's partly why you went and then what you experienced not only in terms of great opportunities, but probably a lot of competition.
Kelsey Edwards [01:49:26] So much. Absolutely. Well, yeah, and that's, that's 100 true. Like BYU is, is such a well respected ballroom team. And I, like, I wanted to be a part of that and I knew that. I knew that Utah and especially Utah county had such incredible dancers and I, you know, been dancing. I grew up dancing too. I didn't really talk much about that. But when I was, I was also doing my acting and stuff, I was also dancing. But it wasn't until my teenage years that I was really like into ballroom. And so, yeah, I came here for the sole purpose of taking advantage of like that Utah culture, ballroom dancing. And I was definitely like out of my element at first. Like these kids have been doing it their whole life and I came from like an environment where I was new to it and I was doing a different style and I didn't have the technique that a lot of these kids had. But, you know, and, and I can see that now, like, oh, I wasn't, I wasn't quite as good as I maybe thought I was at the time. But, but I learned a lot that whole year. Like, I had such great instruction. My ballroom coach at my high school was Brent Freese and he was from the byu. Brent and Kim, they both danced on the BYU team and so they were great coaches and taught me so much. And yeah, I really learned a lot. But the competition was fierce, that's for sure. You know, and it was, it was really hard. And again, I'm no stranger to competition. I've been an actor my whole life. I'm not afraid of rejection. But it was, it was definitely, definitely difficult to like have those competitions and have those settings where you're like putting it all on the line. You're moving your whole life out here and then nothing. Like either like you don't get an award or you don't place or something like that. But then towards the end of my year, I did start placing in a few competitions, which was cool. So like, I did learn quite a bit and, and did really put those skills into practice. But I. I got to dance on, like, at. At the nationals, which is. BYU Nationals is like a, you know, international competition. People come from all over the world. It's usually held in March, I think, at least it used to be. And so I got to compete there. And with my ballroom team, we did medley. Yeah, we did, like, a Latin medley. And I was. I was in both the Latin medley and the standard medley. That was super cool. Like, a really powerful experience for me. And we. I can't remember now, but I think we took second out of all the medleys. Second or third, which is pretty good compared to, like, all the teams. And I was excited about that.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:44] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:51:45] But.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:46] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:51:46] Yeah, well, it's a competition. These kids are so good. Like I said, they've been doing it their whole life, and. And I'm just, like, waltzing in this, like, Texas girl who's like, hey, I'm here. And. Yeah, there was. There was definitely a learning curve with all of that as well, but. But Utah does have incredible dancers.
John Dehlin [01:52:05] Cool. Okay. So now we're getting around high school graduation point and then trying to decide what to do. You know, there's. There's. Try and pursue acting or dance. There's potentially a mission. There's. There's going to college. So how did you make your decision about what's next?
Kelsey Edwards [01:52:25] Yeah, well, I. I was at UVU for that college program. So I stayed at UVU for, like. Like a year because I was able to just, you know, move. Move on to campus. So I did that after I got. And I didn't actually even technically graduate high school. I always say I graduated. I didn't really. You know, I don't. I don't have a high school diploma, which is funny. But I started going to uvu, and then I. I remember I was so stressed out about UVU or byu. Like, which is it going to be? I'm already in uvu, but, like, I've always dreamed of byu. BYU has the prestige. BYU has the. A higher level of education. It's the. It's the church's school. I want to be at byu. And I wrestled with that decision for months. Like, do I stay where I am, or do I go there? And, I mean, I'm a little ashamed of it now, but I. I picked BYU because I thought it looked better. You know, I was like, this is the most impressive school. And I got accepted.
John Dehlin [01:53:18] I don't get. So I think of BYU as being highly competitive. Yeah, we like to call it the Harvard of the West. When I was there. How does somebody who's been homeschooled, who didn't graduate from high school get into byu?
Kelsey Edwards [01:53:30] Well, I have. When you have a certain amount of college credits, you can just transfer.
John Dehlin [01:53:34] Oh.
Kelsey Edwards [01:53:34] So I was a transfer student. I didn't go in as like an incoming freshman.
John Dehlin [01:53:37] You didn't need a high school diploma?
Kelsey Edwards [01:53:38] Nope. I just, I had like 34 college credits or something like that. And my, I had a 4. 0, of course, because I, because of who I was. I had a 4.0 GPA, so they took me very easily. And you know, I did all that essays and all the extracurriculars and I have had, you know, somewhat of a different life. And I think that was interesting to them.
John Dehlin [01:53:56] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [01:53:57] You know, so given the fact that I already had 30 something credits, a perfect GPA and whatever, all this other
Margi Dehlin [01:54:03] stuff, they were like, safe bet.
Kelsey Edwards [01:54:05] Yes, exactly. Shoe in.
John Dehlin [01:54:08] So.
Kelsey Edwards [01:54:09] Yeah. But after I got accepted, I was like, well, this is the most prestigious school. This looks good. You know, I gotta go. Which is. Yeah. It's funny because I'm. That was like the way I operated at the time, you know?
Margi Dehlin [01:54:23] Yeah. The optimization. Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:54:26] Yes. And just like appearances. How can I look the best like college, you know, when I'm applying to jobs in the future, when I tell people which college I went to. I went to byu.
John Dehlin [01:54:36] Oh, well, there's no shame, Right. For picking reputation as part of why you choose a college.
Kelsey Edwards [01:54:41] Okay. That's fair.
John Dehlin [01:54:42] Plenty of people do that. Yeah, I think most people do that. Okay. And care about their future.
Kelsey Edwards [01:54:47] Yeah.
Deciding to Serve a Mission
Margi Dehlin [01:54:47] And I think being in industries like you actually your experience being in dance and acting and, you know, you probably came upon that in a really, you know, in a way that was honest and experiential.
Kelsey Edwards [01:55:03] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:55:04] Right. That these things can make a difference in very real ways. Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:55:09] Yep. Yeah. It's just, it's just funny I think about like that the, the logic of my, you know, 17, 18 year old self and it was solely about like the appearance of, you know, the education was also a nice bonus. The fact that BYU is such a highly esteemed school for the education. And I wanted that too, but I was definitely motivated by. Yeah. Reputation and the way that it would look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, so I did, I did choose to. I did, I did a year at UVU or maybe like a semester at uvu and then I transferred to byu. I did a semester or a year at BYU and then I lived in YVU in the college dorms. It's like my first College apartment. And. Yeah, that was when all my friends were getting mission calls. I was 18, almost 19, and I felt very strongly like, I need to go on a mission. Like, for sure I need to go on a mission.
John Dehlin [01:56:03] Now, was this after the Thomas Monson lowered the age.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:06] Yep. Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [01:56:07] I was actually part of, like, kind of the first wave of, like, sister missionaries that after the age was lowered to 19.
John Dehlin [01:56:12] 19 for sister missionaries from 21.
Kelsey Edwards [01:56:15] Yes, exactly. And then there was, like, that wave of, like, all the sister missionaries going on their mission. They shortened the time in the MTC because there were so many sisters, like, influx. You know, I think it used to be, like, how. How many weeks? Like, three weeks or six weeks in the MTC, and then it, like, dropped down to 12 days if you were English speaking or whatever. So I was a part of that whole, like, transition. Yeah. So I turned 19 in March, and I. I, you know, put in the request for a mission call and everything and got my mission call to Birmingham, Alabama. Roll Tide.
John Dehlin [01:56:50] Where'd you want to go?
Kelsey Edwards [01:56:51] I wanted to go to, like, Europe. I wanted to go overseas. All my friends were getting these super cool mission calls. Like, one of my friends got called to Brazil. Another friend got called to France. Other friends are, like, going to, you know, Canada or, like. I don't know. I was just like. And I got called to Alabama.
John Dehlin [01:57:07] To be fair, the south, especially that part of the south, can feel like another country.
Kelsey Edwards [01:57:12] Exactly. Totally. And that was, again, my perspective, having never been there, you know, and, like, just compared to all the cool things that my friends were doing. And I was like, oh, I'm staying in the States. All right. Okay. You know, but. But yeah, that's so true. It really did feel like another. It feels like another part of the country for sure. Like, another. Another place. And Alabama has its own, like, set of cultural, you know, cultural things and beliefs and food and, you know, lifestyles and things like that. But, yeah, yeah, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bummed. When I opened my vision call, I was like, what? I wanted to go to Paris. Like, I wanted to go to England. I'm like, send me to. To send me to Spain. I don't know. But yeah.
John Dehlin [01:57:56] Okay. And what. Why did you want to go on a mission? I know it's an obvious question, but why'd you want to go on one?
Kelsey Edwards [01:58:02] Yeah, I think at the time, I felt. I felt so strongly like it was what I was meant to do, and. And I felt like this is what's right for me, like, I want to serve the Lord. I want to serve the gospel. I want to. I want to spread the gospel. I want to bring souls to Christ. And I. I feel. I feel like this is, like, the most worthy, like, virtuous thing I could do, you know, with at this place in my life. And it was like a sense of nobility. It was a sense of calling. It was a sense of, like, purpose. And there was almost. There was no question in my mind, really, like, as soon as that age change and the announcement was made in general conference, I knew immediately, like, oh, I'm going on a mission. And at the time previously, I didn't. I didn't know because the age was 21. And, you know, I'm like, well, maybe I'll be married by then. But as soon as it dropped down to 19, I was like, all bets are off. I'm going on a mission. It was. It was no question, because, of course, the. The version of myself that I was, like, I was so. Already so devout and so passionate and so faithful that there's no other. There's no other decision I would have made, you know?
Margi Dehlin [01:59:06] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [01:59:06] That was it.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:07] Can I ask you a question that. So in some of the interviews we have done, you know, people have. Have expressed a little bit when. Let's just say they've been human growing up, but. But let's say they feel like they have in some way interfered with their own worthiness or being judged as, like, you know, the most valiant ever. That oftentimes what they'll try to do as a response to that. Right. Is to sort of do everything they can from there on out. It's sort of like, well, I failed there, and I have a black mark. So from, you know, here forward, I will be on the maximization and almost like a redemption plan. Like, I have to be redeemed for this, this, or, you know, whatever. And it can be personal things. It could be family. Like the fact that now you're coming from a place of, like, okay, well, I don't have this idea of an intact family that the church would. Was that part of, you know, the way you were thinking at the time when you were making these decisions that you remember, or was it really more just around straight up, kind of. Of perfectionism and that being kind of the drive?
Kelsey Edwards [02:00:35] That's a great question. And I. I don't know if I fully remember. I mean, I think it was maybe somewhat of, like, a consolation that I could make, you know, for my family and. And, like, the way that, yeah, my family was not the idealized version, but I. I really, truly think at the time that I was just so motivated by my own beliefs, my own passion, my own desire for, you know, righteousness and being the best saint that I could be. And also, like, I truly, genuinely loved the church. I really did. And so for me to be able to, like, have this opportunity to spread the gospel and share it with everyone I knew felt like, well, what else would I do with my life? You know? And I think the redemption thing was maybe a little bit less of my story because I had such a perfect track record up until that point. You know, like, I really. Like, I was the perfect child. I. I didn't really make a lot of, like, big egregious mistakes. You know, Like, I. And I think that serving a mission was just another way to continue on the path of righteousness so much as, like, it was to make up for a mistake I'd made or something like that, because I didn't. I just didn't really do a lot of that.
John Dehlin [02:01:50] Yeah, makes sense.
Kelsey Edwards [02:01:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:52] Yeah. Well, if you're really believing in the Mormon Church and if you're super orthodox and perfectionistic, a mission is a very natural step, especially when the church sort of opens the floodgates and says all worthy young women should become missionaries.
Kelsey Edwards [02:02:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. It was just the natural step for me. It was the, you know, it was the. I truly wouldn't have done anything else, and I believed it was the best thing for me. Yeah. So I did.
John Dehlin [02:02:17] You know, now that is a big culture shock, you know, to go to the south of, you know, heavy, you know, black or African American kind of populations. Strong. I don't know how. Where you lived in LA or in Provo, but, like, socioeconomic, you know, differences. Yeah, that's. That all can feel very shocking. Or foreign to a LA Utah girl.
Kelsey Edwards [02:02:45] Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, growing up in San Antonio, Texas, I was. I was no stranger to the south in that way. Like, I was familiar with the South. I was familiar with all of the religious pockets that are in the South. Having said that, though, Texas is kind of like its own blend of the South. It's not really like. It's not like Deep south, and it's not different. Yeah, you.
John Dehlin [02:03:06] You know, because you're from Alabama, in Mississippi, and it's. It's different than, like, Houston or Dallas or San Antonio.
Kelsey Edwards [02:03:12] 100.
John Dehlin [02:03:13] Very different.
Kelsey Edwards [02:03:13] Yeah. Texas is its own, like, thing, you know, and so getting to Alabama was somewhat of a culture shock. Even though I was raised with, you Know, a little bit of the south in me, but. Yeah, no, you're right. It's. It's. It's a very strong culture as far as, like, the. The food, the language, the accents, the. The lifestyles, the religion, and. And I loved. I loved Alabama. I really, really did.
John Dehlin [02:03:37] Really?
Kelsey Edwards [02:03:38] Yeah, I, like. I loved it. It was a shock for me at first. You know, my first area was definitely hard. It had some, like, really sketchy areas, and they hadn't put sister missionaries in that area for, like, eight years or something. So me and my trainer companion, my friend Maren, we were the first sister missionaries in, like, eight years that they had ever had. And the members were really worried about it. They're like, you're putting sisters back in here. Like. Like, there are parts of this area that are not very safe. And we lived in kind of a sketchy area, and, like, there were. There were. There were some crazy things that happened in that area. Just, like, we would be, like, tailed by some sketchy dudes, and they would be, like, following us in their car. Like, we heard gunshots outside of our apartment. Like, there was, like, some scary stuff that happened in, like, that area in and of itself, but. But it was also, like, one of my favorite areas. Like, I loved. I loved. I loved Alabama and the people. You know, the people are so near and dear to my heart. Like, even now. They just will do anything for you. They take such good care of you. They would give you the shirt off their back. You know, they fed us all the time. I learned how to make, you know, some of the best, like, southern food on my mission. I learned how to make amazing, like, Mac and cheese and homemade banana pudding and, like, cornbread and biscuits. And, like, I still make that stuff every year for Thanksgiving, and I learned it in Alabama.
Mission Experiences and Emerging Doubts
Margi Dehlin [02:04:52] That's amazing.
Kelsey Edwards [02:04:53] Amazing.
Margi Dehlin [02:04:54] Wow. What a skill set. Can I say. Yeah, Mac and cheese. The.
Kelsey Edwards [02:05:00] You know, it's. It's those ladies, like, they know what they're doing, you know, I learned how to cook from them. On P Days, we'd go over. There was this lady named Becky White. She's passed away now, but we would go over to her house on Mondays, on P days, and she would just teach us how to make cornbread, Teach us how to make banana pudding. Like, teach us how to make. I love those times. You know, they're really special. Me. And that's delightful. Yeah, I really loved it. And all the areas of my mission, they all hold such different, you know, special fond memories for me. I really loved Alabama. I love the people, I love the members and I love the people that I taught.
John Dehlin [02:05:34] So one, one thing that's always kind of alarming to people who live outside of Utah or Mormonism or Idaho, learned that a Mormon can oftentimes graduate from high school having never really met or known a black person in any meaningful way. I know you were in la, so that, or San Antonio, that might not have been your experience. But even so, Mormonism has these teachings, historical teachings around black skin being a curse, a curse from God. You know, Native Americans have brown skin from the Book of Mormon because God cursed Native Americans with dark skin for their wickedness. So we've got all this culture and kind of racist doctrine and theology around dark skin being a curse from God basically in one form or another. And then we've got our history in the Mormon Church, of the Mormon Church, denying full membership status, denying the priesthood, denying even temple ceilings from people of color prior to 1978. So when you're going to Alabama to teach Mormonism, you've not only got an awareness of that, but then you might also have people saying, isn't your church racist? Didn't your, didn't your church keep black people as second class citizens? So how, how did you experience race and racism and how did you deal with Mormon theology and doctrine and its
Margi Dehlin [02:07:04] history in the South? Like geographically, there's an, There's a nation history as well coming into play.
Kelsey Edwards [02:07:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:07:12] How did you deal with that?
Kelsey Edwards [02:07:13] Yeah, I mean, I, I will, I would say that I witnessed more racism like firsthand, seeing, seeing a white person, you know, treat a black person differently in Alabama than than I've seen in a lot of places, you know, and there is so much historical significance and some of the areas that I was in, like I went, I went to Selma, I walked across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, you know, like really. And I was in Montgomery and like all, all of those, you know, really powerful places in Tuskegee. And, and it was, it was very, a powerful learning experience for me as a white person to be able to observe that and observe the pain and observe like, you know, these, these really historical places and also to still see the places where it is, it is still happening. And then that's hard. Yeah. To be like a white person walking into these communities and like you deal with a little bit of like the white savior complex. You know, you're like, I'm, I, like I'm coming here to teach you the gospel and, but like there's so much, like you said, there's so there's so much history there that it's. Yeah, it was a tough thing to navigate. And I. The issue of race is so complex and delicate, and I, you know, I always want to be delicate when I talk about it, but. But I don't know that I ever had somebody say to me, your church is racist. Because I think whatever knowledge people outside of the church have about the church within Alabama, I don't really know that they. Not too many people had done their research, I guess, like, to know those details about, like, people of color and the church's background. I do know that there were moments where, like, we would be in certain neighborhoods and things like that that were predominantly, like, people of color. And then to have like, these kind of like white, you know, goody two shoe Mormon girls walking in was kind of like, you know, probably offensive. And like, what. What are you doing here? You know, like, don't act like you're here to save us or whatever. And that was. Yeah, that was definitely, definitely like an interesting thing to. To navigate and. And I have more perspective on it now than I did at the time, of course. But. But yeah, it is. It is very much a. I don't know how to describe it.
Margi Dehlin [02:09:35] It's.
Kelsey Edwards [02:09:35] It's just. There's a lot. There's a lot of tension. There's a lot of tension there between religion and race and all those things.
John Dehlin [02:09:40] So were. Did you have a lot of converse? Did you baptize a lot of people? Did you enjoy teaching the discussions? How did it go?
Kelsey Edwards [02:09:48] Yeah, I loved it. I mean, I like, I, you know, again, back to the whole, like, scrupulosity thing. Like, I was a great man missionary. I. I really worked hard and I, you know, I trained a missionary. I was a sister training leader for like, half of my mission, which sister training leaders are kind of like the leaders in the mission. For anyone who's not familiar, you have like, your zone leaders. And then like, the female version of that would be like, the sister training leader. I did that for a long time. I did. I did baptize quite a few people, which, I mean, is funny because that used to be like a badge of honor, you know. But yeah, I really. My mission was a very, like, impactful time and I worked really hard and it was super hot and like sweating all the time, and we're like biking in like 100 plus degree weather, you know, like in. In our skirts and my, like, skirts getting caught in my bike wheels and, you know, but you're like, no, I'm doing it for. For the higher good and you know, biking to appointments after appointments and we would street contact in, in Walmart all the time. Like, I don't know what it was about our mission, but like, Walmart was always the place to go. It was like, well, we gotta, we need to contact, we need to make X amount of contacts and stuff. And, and it's so hot outside. So we'll go inside, we'll go to Walmart and I would like, I was a pro at like drumming up conversations with people in like the soup can aisle. Like, wow, what do you think about this soup? Like, did you know that like, Jesus is great? Like, my transitions were better at the time, but, but yeah, I, I definitely, I lived my mission and, and you know, served it very wholeheartedly. And my mission president is, is a really amazing man and taught us a lot of things about like, he'd always tell us like, you know, benefits over features. And, and we talk about the benefits of the gospel over the features of the gospel. And yeah, it's, it's interesting to think of, like, in a way you're like marketing, you know, in a way you're like, you're a salesperson in a sense. And yeah, I guess I, I did pretty good at it, but, but I really loved it too. And that's, that's like where it, it came down to. It was like I started having like these experiences and I don't know like how deeply you want me to get into that, but.
John Dehlin [02:11:52] Oh yeah, yeah. So you, you mentioned that maybe some cracks or questions in your Mormon faith started to develop on your mission.
Kelsey Edwards [02:11:59] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:12:00] Yeah, please talk about that.
Kelsey Edwards [02:12:01] Okay. Yeah. Because as much as I, like, I loved my mission and it was such a time of like, growth and learning and I cared so deeply about it. It was also when I started to have like, some questions, I was like, it was in my second area actually, and I in that area specifically. We were surrounded by so many people of different faiths. Like, there was like, Church of Christ, there was Pentecostal, there was Jehovah's Witness, there was Baptists, there was Methodists, there was Catholics. Like, there were pockets of religion everywhere in Alabama. And in the second area that I was in, it was like, really even more in my face than like anywhere else that I served. And I started like, feeling really conflicted about the fact that I'm telling people I have something else to offer you. When they seem like they've, they're good, like, they seem like they've got it, like they've, they've Got Jesus, they've got the gospel in their form and they're really happy. And I kind of, I struggled with that and bumped up against that quite a bit in my second area where I would tell you people, like, well, I have more, like, I have more for you. I have the Book of Mormon, I have the fullness of the gospel, we have the priesthood. And I was met with quite a bit of resistance from those people saying, like, well, I, I don't understand why you think you have more. Like, I'm already doing really good, I'm already really happy. And in fact, I remember a time when I was teaching somebody and I had said to her, you know, hey, we believe that families can be together forever and that in the, in the temple your family can be sealed and you can be with your family after this life. Like when, after you all die, you can be together forever. And she looked at me and she was like, I already believe I'm going to be with my family forever. Like, I don't need a temple for that. You know, I'm already, that's already a belief I have that I'm going to be with my family. I don't believe in a God that separates families after they die. And that was, I had never thought of it that way before, like, truly, that the belief of the temple and the significance of it is predicated on the belief that God separates families in general. And I just, it was like a, like a mind blowing experience for me, truly, that I was like, oh, why would God want to keep families apart anyways? That's, that's interesting because a lot of people are not going to have access to this temple, right? Like a lot of families and a lot of the billions of people that have lived. And of course that's why we do temple ceilings. I'm like rationalizing all this in my head as a missionary, but like a lot of people are never going to be able to do this. And so a lot of people are never going to be with their families. Like, interesting, you know, and as a missionary, you're like, okay, we'll push it down, explain it to myself as a missionary. Teach myself as I would teach an investigator. Keep going. But yeah, that rattled me.
John Dehlin [02:14:45] And it's. And even if people have their, you know, Mormons do baptisms for the dead in theory, so that people can have the chance to accept the gospel in heaven, to then have their endowment work done and then have their temple ceiling done so that they can eventually make super special VIP celestial kingdom heaven and become gods but anything short of the celestial kingdom, according to Mormonism, you're not with your family.
Kelsey Edwards [02:15:09] Right.
John Dehlin [02:15:10] Somehow God, I mean, the implication is that God just keeps you away, almost like magnets that repel. It's like, oh, wait, your terrestrial or terrestrial kingdom, which is most of God's children, you are forbidden from being with your family. You're kept away from your family. It's almost like they'll put one of you here and one of you there, one of you over there, and you can't get together. I mean, that is the teaching that that is.
Kelsey Edwards [02:15:32] Yeah. I mean, that, yeah, that's, that's definitely like, if you're in separate kingdoms, then I, I don't know that you would be able to be with your family.
John Dehlin [02:15:39] You know, the overwhelming majority of God's children in heaven will not be allowed to be with their spouse, with their children, with their parents. You're kept separate from them in heaven. And that's. Some would say that's not heaven, that's hell.
Margi Dehlin [02:15:55] And that's the irony of being a church that's known to be about families. Right. Because the reality, it's a church that's breaking up families in heaven. Yeah. The, the majority of the people aren't with their families. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:16:12] Whereas many Christians are like, wait, I'm going to be with my family in heaven.
Margi Dehlin [02:16:15] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:16:16] Because all the. God's not going to keep us apart.
Kelsey Edwards [02:16:18] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:16:18] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [02:16:19] And that's what you, that's what she said to me. And I was like, wait. What I was like is it never dawned on me because I, Yeah. I believed so, so strongly about, like, families are going to be together and in order to be with your family, you have to be in the celestial kingdom, you have to be sealed. And like, that's so important. And yeah, like, that really rattled me. Among other things, like, I would have, I would teach an investigator and she would, would say, like, oh, well, at my church, she, I think she was like Pentecostal or something. And, and she was like, very big into, like, like speaking in tongues and things like that. And she would tell me about experiences at her church that she'd witnessed for herself about her pastor, like healing a woman's ankle or like someone who was injured. And I struggled with that so much because I was like, how. How did he do that? Like, how is that. Either she's lying to me or you don't need the priesthood to make miracles happen. And I don't understand that because I've only ever believed that, like, you have to have the priesthood to Perform miracles like that. Again, as a missionary, I, like, rationalize at my brain. I'm like, okay, well, faith still matters. Prayer is still. God recognizes faith. God recognizes prayers whether they're from someone with the priesthood or not. But it's still. It really confused me. And I ran into that over and over and over, like people experiencing these miracles without the priesthood and without the fullness of the gospel. And I was like, how's this possible?
John Dehlin [02:17:35] You know, because if a black Pentecostal woman can heal someone with their faith, it begs the question, why do you need male priesthood with anointed oil and a special priesthood blessing with authority? I mean, why do you really need it? If you just have enough faith, you don't really need it.
Margi Dehlin [02:17:54] Right?
Kelsey Edwards [02:17:54] Yeah, yeah, that. That was. It was very concerning for me as a missionary to, like, to come face to face with these situations and be like, that goes completely against what I believe and goes completely against what I'm teaching you right now. Like, your very experience invalidates the lesson I just taught you, you know, And I just didn't know how to reconcile that. I was like, like, how do I get around this? You know, like this. It just happened. That happened so much. Like, people having these incredible experiences in their church with their belief system, speaking in tongues, like, you know, falling on the floor, really being consumed with the spirit as. As they saw it. And I'm over here saying, like, that's not possible. You can't. You can't be. That's not how you feel the spirit. This is how we feel spirit that maybe, like, is good, but this is more good, you know? And it was. It was like. I was like, very. I don't know, what's the word? Like, the cognitive dissonance of being, like, a missionary and being very faithful and, like, so diligent, but then also, like, yeah, rationalizing all these beliefs and things like that. So.
John Dehlin [02:18:57] Plus, you've got the article of faith, the Mormon article of faith that Joseph Smith himself wrote that said, we believe in the gift of tongues. Prophecy, revelations, visions, healing.
Margi Dehlin [02:19:06] True.
John Dehlin [02:19:07] And you see Pentecostals. I'm channeling my friend Chris Thomas here. You're seeing Pentecostals living one part of professed Mormonism better than Mormons. Right?
Kelsey Edwards [02:19:17] Right. Yeah. That's an interesting thought. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:19:19] You didn't. That didn't occur to you? No, I mean, for me, I asked that question. I'm like, wait a minute, what about the speaking of tongues? And they're like, oh, no, no, no, that's not what those Pentecostals do. It's. It's that you learn a language faster as a missionary than other people would normally. Then you would normally learn that language. Right.
Kelsey Edwards [02:19:37] That's what it was always told to me, which is why I didn't question that, I think.
John Dehlin [02:19:39] But that's not. When Joseph Smith said gift of tongues, he meant Pentecostal spiritual gifts of tongues. That's been reinterpreted by modern Mormon apologists. I don't know if you know that.
Kelsey Edwards [02:19:51] I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:19:53] Early church members spoke in tongues like Pentecostals do now. That just got filtered out.
Kelsey Edwards [02:20:00] Interesting.
John Dehlin [02:20:00] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:20:01] So it sounds like on your mission, you're being challenged in your experiences with people that you're teaching, you're actually experiencing a different reality through them. So my question is, were you, like, were you able to talk about this to your companions, or were you feeling quite alone and isolated?
Kelsey Edwards [02:20:22] Yeah, I did. I didn't talk to my companions about it. I didn't talk to anybody about it. I don't think I talked to my mission president about it either, because there's also some shame with that. Like, I'm here representing Christ. I'm here. His name is literally on my badge. And I'm over here, like. Like having second thoughts about the lesson I just taught, you know, and I was kind of mortified about that. I was also going through a. A time where I was training a missionary, and, you know, it was my job to, like, teach her all the ways of being a missionary, how to be a good missionary. And I was like, I can't. I. There's no way, you know, I can't, like, unload this, like, faith thing that I'm dealing with on her. Like, she just got here, you know, so. No, it was. It was a very private struggle. It really was. And I dove into the scriptures deeper. I dove in to preach my gospel deeper and, you know, just tried to kind of, like, placate my mind with. With these things, you know, and, like, the teachings that I already had. But those things rattled me. They re. They really did. And I. I still kept on. I still, like, was a very faithful missionary. But, like, they were popping up, you know, the whole time. And it was very. Yeah, not just in that area, but in all the other areas. And it's also really hard for me when I sit there and see the way that sometimes you go to certain churches and the way that they worship is so different than the way that the LDS Church worships. And I would think to myself, that's not right. Your form of worship is wrong. Which is maybe my own logical mistake, but it was so confusing to me to see these people worshiping loud. They're chanting. They know they've got music, they've got, like, guitars and they're, like, cheering and, you know, whatever. And I'm like, but according to the way that we worship, like, that's not the right way. You know, like, wait. Like, there was just so much confusion and, like, conflict of, like, religion, God teachings, things that I've been teaching, you know, it was all kind of like, like exploding.
John Dehlin [02:22:27] I. I reference this quote a lot, but tomorrow. Tom. Sorry. Mark Twain is famous for saying, travel is fatal to prejudice.
Kelsey Edwards [02:22:35] Wow.
John Dehlin [02:22:35] You know?
Kelsey Edwards [02:22:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:22:36] Because you get out there and you. And you see the world and you see that, wow, other people can be really intelligent and other people not like me, can be really righteous or spiritual or whatever.
Kelsey Edwards [02:22:46] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:22:47] Wow. That makes you start to question the bubble you were raised in. Right?
Kelsey Edwards [02:22:51] Yeah, that's. I've never heard that quote before, but that's. That's so relevant to me and my journey because, I mean. Yeah, that. That it was so much of, like, seeing the world that, like, really kind of, like, opened my eyes. And the mission, especially, like, being so consumed with all of those different lifestyles.
John Dehlin [02:23:08] You know, I have to ask really quickly. So you're serving your mission between what years?
Kelsey Edwards [02:23:13] I. 2013 to 2014. So, like, May 2013 to December 2014.
John Dehlin [02:23:18] So by this is the time. Right. The Internet's really starting to come on. The Mormon Internet podcasts are starting to really come on. The CES letter doesn't come out until, I think, 2014, 2015, but the Gospel Topics essays are coming out by 2014, and that's in response to all the progressive and ex Mormonism between 2005 and 2014.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:40] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:23:40] So I'm wondering whether any of it. Whether any of the kind of information about church history, about problems with Joseph Smith and stuff that pejoratively is referred to as anti Mormon literature information on the Internet. I'm wondering if you face any of that or learn about any of that or experience any of that on your mission.
Kelsey Edwards [02:24:04] Honestly, I didn't. And I was so deeply in staying, loving, fighting for the church, that I wouldn't have read any of it if it had come across my path. And to be completely honest with you, I still, still haven't read really any of that, which I know, I know it's very, like, atypical for someone who's left the church to have not read the CES letter. Or any of these other things. I've never read them. I really haven't. Like, my journey is very different in the sense that it didn't, it didn't come from those things. It came from my own personal experiences and my own worldview and my own belief system. Like, everything that I viewed about the world shifted and, you know, it was like my own personal shelf broke. It had nothing to do with anything outside influences, any documents, any books, any anti. Material. I've never read it. Still haven't. And, and yeah, I didn't come across any of my mission because I didn't seek it out. You know, I just like, head down back to preach my gospel back to the Book of Mormon.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:05] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [02:25:05] Stick to your roots and like, work through this. But yeah, I actually didn't. I didn't know the timeline on all of those documents. So that's, that's very interesting.
John Dehlin [02:25:14] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:15] But I love the way you described that, having it be of a deeply internal kind of reckoning as opposed from outside in.
Kelsey Edwards [02:25:23] Yeah, and I know that's very different. You know, I. I think I just told my friend the other day, she was like, oh, yeah, the CES letter. And she's like, what did you think about that? I was like, honestly, I've never read it. Like, I really haven't. And anything about me or my life that's changed has been. Yeah. Personal, it's been. It's been my internal worldview that has shifted and realized, like, you know, I don't want to get too deep into it, but, you know.
John Dehlin [02:25:44] Yeah, well, that's going to be part two.
Kelsey Edwards [02:25:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:25:48] Anything else you want to. Well, we've got a few more things I want to ask before we move on, before we break for part two, but.
Kelsey Edwards [02:25:54] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:25:54] Anything else about your mission you want to say or do you feel like you kind of captured your mission experiences?
Kelsey Edwards [02:25:59] Yeah, I think that was. I think that was most of it, you know, Like, I. I really want to make sure I'm true to the fact that, like, I did love it. And I think, you know, for those of my friends who live. Listen to this, my mission companions will listen to this and know, like, I, I loved it so deeply, but it also, yeah, provided like a grounds. The grounds for things that I was very unprepared to deal with. So, you know, but I have no ill will towards like, my mission or my mission president or my companions or anything. Like, I know some people like their mission is a very traumatic experience for them. And while my mission was hard because they always are, I Also really did love it. So. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:35] Yeah.
Post-Mission Life and a Trip to Europe
John Dehlin [02:26:37] Well, let's. Let's go ahead and take it to maybe your Europe trip. So between your mission and your trip to Europe, which is when things start to fall apart, I guess. Tell us just about your come home from your mission, and I noticed in your outline that you got a little sad. What was that about?
Kelsey Edwards [02:26:55] Yeah, I just love my mission so much. Like, again, this whole old identity that I had of how into this thing can I be, how committed to this thing can I be, how. All the way. And so my mission was that I was all the way. And then coming home, it gave me a sense of identity. It gave me a sense of purpose. I was very respected in a sense. And then I came home and I was like, just back to Kelsey. Just Kelsey. And I was heartbroken over that. I cried for days, and I didn't even want to get out of the car when I got home. Sat in the car and cried. And I remember my mom saying how much that actually really hurt her. But, like, I just was devastated to leave my mission. It just, you know, it really. It really made, like, gave me so much and, you know, and I really struggled with the idea of, like, okay, well, I'm home for my mission now. So the next steps are you have your exit interview with your mission president.
John Dehlin [02:27:46] Like, what did he say?
Kelsey Edwards [02:27:47] You know, the same thing they always say, like, okay, now go find a righteous husband and, you know, like, start a family and, you know, like, live your life and do those things. And that's kind of the goal when you come home is like, giving, is it?
John Dehlin [02:28:01] To get married and have kids as soon as possible.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:28:03] Overstating that.
Kelsey Edwards [02:28:04] Yeah. No, I mean, from my understanding at least, that's. That's what I feel like I was taught, you know, is, okay, like, you're home now. The next phase of your journey, find a spouse, fit spot, get married. Yeah, 20. I was 20.
John Dehlin [02:28:17] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [02:28:18] Yeah. I wanted to be married. That though, like, at the age of 21, I was like, okay, I came home in December of 20, so I was almost. I was going to be 21 in that following March. So my goal was to be married by the time I was 22, start having babies and. Or to get married while I was 21 and then start having babies while I was 22, be done having babies while I was 25.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:39] Wait, when was. When was this your. Your goal? When was this?
Kelsey Edwards [02:28:42] At the end of my mission.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:43] Really?
Kelsey Edwards [02:28:43] Yeah. Yeah, that was, like, my.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:45] Still holding pretty tightly to that kind of formula.
Kelsey Edwards [02:28:49] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:50] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:28:51] What happened?
Kelsey Edwards [02:28:52] I don't know what happened. I failed. I failed.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:55] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [02:28:55] It was so hard for me because I was like. I was like, this is such a valiant desire. Why am I not meeting anyone?
John Dehlin [02:29:01] What happened? What. Why didn't you meet. Why didn't you just go back to byu, date up a storm, get engaged and get married?
Kelsey Edwards [02:29:08] Well, I mean, I did go to byu and I did, you know, I did date several people, but, like, none of them ever never worked out. Like, it was never. It was never the one. And I, like, had my heart broken a few times and, like, was always so devastated by that. Like, I want. I want to find a husband. I want to get married. I want to have kids. This is such a. A valiant desire. And I remember praying and, like, asking God, like, please, like, why? All of my friends are getting married. All of my friends are getting married. They're all having babies. That's what I want to do. Like, why. Why am I not finding my person? I'm at byu. Like, I'm at the Lord's university. Everyone gets married here. Like, everyone finds their person here. Why is this not working out for me?
John Dehlin [02:29:44] I'm guessing there were guys that wanted to marry you.
Kelsey Edwards [02:29:47] Yeah, I mean, there. There were, like. You know what I mean? It's like there were guys that were interested in me that I wasn't interested in. There were guys that I was interested in that weren't interested in me. It's like the classic dating. Sometimes it just doesn't match up, you know? And there were, you know, guys that I broke up with and guys that broke up with me. It's just like, I just never found it. I never found the person. I never found my one. And that was really hard for me. Like, I had my first love in college and. And I thought I was gonna marry him. We dated for, like, four months, you know, But I was in love with him. And then he broke my heart. And I was like, this is so. This is so awful when, you know, the belief I had at the time was, this is what matters the most.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:26] That's right.
Kelsey Edwards [02:30:27] You know, and that's. That's, like, even more heart wrenching is not only is your heartbroken by someone you love, but your heart is broken because you cannot fulfill this thing that you think is paramount to, like, everything else.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:37] That's right. It's like, you can't. You can't will it to happen.
Kelsey Edwards [02:30:40] No, you can't. Yeah. So you just keep going on dates. You keep, like, you know, going to single adult activities and your Ysa Ward and hoping you meet the one and then you know, you never do.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:50] It's just like, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:30:53] What were you studying at BYU and what were your post mission? What were your career plans or ambitions?
Kelsey Edwards [02:31:00] I was, I was at BYU trying to figure out if I was going to do like psychology. I have a, always been really interested in psychology. I've always been really interested in marketing business. And then I ended up landing on pr, like communications. I went to the school of communications in the PR program and I had a business minor so and like at the time, like that was my goal was like, okay, I'm going to go to byu, I'm going to get my degree, I'm going to work a 9 to 5, I'm going to you know, have a degree in, in or have a career rather in public relations. And you know, I really like, I had the typical goal in mind of like maybe having a career for a little bit but eventually coming home and being a stay at home mom and you know, maybe my husband's a dentist or something like that. You know, like that was kind of the, the pathway that I saw for myself at the time. And I had my first relationships and stuff like that, but none of them ever panned out to like being that. So I was like, okay, well I guess I'll just keep doing my school thing. I kind of started acting again after taking such a lengthy break from it. I kind of started getting back into my film stuff at that point and trying to juggle college and acting. I was working at a kids education company doing their PR and their marketing and stuff like that and doing social media and kind of like all in this like media space.
John Dehlin [02:32:19] So where were you in your academic career when you decided to go to Europe?
Kelsey Edwards [02:32:26] I think I had like a year left or like maybe a semester. I can't remember if it was a whole year, if it was just a semester. But yeah, I was nearing, nearing the end. And what's interesting is that year I was. Sorry, that year I was actually supposed to have an internship in New York City. Like I accepted a PR internship in New York and I was like this is gonna be so cool, whatever. And then just like a couple months before it was time to go, I was like, actually I don't think I want to live, I don't think I want to do the corporate thing. Like I don't think I want to work a 9 to 5. I don't think I want to work for someone else the rest of my life. So I kind of made this decision at the time, I was like, I think I need to do something else. And I. So I turned down my internship, which is crazy because it was like really hard to get.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:11] Yes.
Kelsey Edwards [02:33:11] Yeah. It was a very respected PR firm. Yeah. In New York City.
John Dehlin [02:33:14] Oh, a New York City PR firm.
Kelsey Edwards [02:33:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:33:17] Oh, wow.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:17] Yeah. Really?
Kelsey Edwards [02:33:19] It would have been super cool, but, like, I knew ultimately that that was not where my life was going at that. At that point I'd kind of like picked up acting again, rekindled my passion for that, for music. I started doing like music a little bit more professionally and stuff like that. And I was like, I don't, I don't think this is where I'm headed. So I turned down the internship and instead I did a five week backpacking trip to Europe. Wow, look at that. Yeah. Me and my friend Bristol, we went over there and it was my first time out of the country besides Mexico. I'd gone on like a cruise to Mexico, but this was like my first time, like in a completely different, you know, part of the world on my own, like, no parents, no nothing, you know, wow. We're just like dropped ourselves in London for like, you know, five weeks. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:34:03] Right. And that's, that's going to be our cliffhanger because that's going to be where your Mormon journey takes a turn.
Kelsey Edwards [02:34:10] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:34:11] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [02:34:11] Yeah, that's, that's kind of where, where the shelf breaks.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:14] But can I just say, like, impressive for you in that moment to actually do a little internal connection and say, because I do think that is something that internship would be sought after, seen as success, seen as where you kind of talk about that earlier, like feeling a little bit sensitive or aware that you chose BYU for. Well, that's a similar kind of thing. And for you to have the presence of mind to say, I just don't think it's a match for me, and then to pick up and give yourself a little moment, a little space. I'm just all over it.
Kelsey Edwards [02:34:52] Thank you. That was the start of my self reflection journey, I guess. My healing.
John Dehlin [02:34:58] Love it.
Kelsey Edwards [02:34:59] Thanks.
John Dehlin [02:35:01] Well, Kelsey Edwards, this has been really fun to spend two and a half hours to kind of hear the first part of your Mormon journey. We really appreciate all you've been willing to share and I'm, I'm super excited for the Cafe Rio that's on the table. No, no paid endorsement. And I'm really excited to then also get into part two where we learn how a super orthodox, faithful returned missionary just a few years ago starts to question without any CES letter Mormon stories, faith crazy.
Kelsey Edwards [02:35:34] Like, none of it.
John Dehlin [02:35:35] Church history kind of stuff. How your faith can go askew.
Kelsey Edwards [02:35:40] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:35:41] I'm dying to hear.
Kelsey Edwards [02:35:42] It does. It does happen. Yeah. I'm excited to talk about it with you, so thank you.
John Dehlin [02:35:47] All right, so thanks. And please, everyone, quick favor, please. If you're listening to his review doing us on YouTube, please subscribe.
Kelsey Edwards [02:35:55] We.
John Dehlin [02:35:56] We live and die by the donations of our donors. So Please donate@mormonstories.org if you support this content, become a monthly donor. And if all you do is if a bunch of you subscribe. We have a goal of reaching 100,000 subscribers by, you know, within eight months, and we're trying to reach it, so it would help. It also helps with the algorithms if people subscribe. So please subscribe to YouTube and please support us if you can. But most importantly, please come back for part two where we're going to hear about Kelsey Edwards faith journey as a faithful Mormon.
Kelsey Edwards [02:36:32] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:36:32] Thanks, Kelsey.
Kelsey Edwards [02:36:33] Thank you so much.
John Dehlin [02:36:34] Yeah, thanks, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [02:36:35] You're welcome.
John Dehlin [02:36:36] All right, we'll see you guys on the flip side. Please come right back.
Part Two Begins: Faith Crisis Unfolds Abroad
Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1705
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 28, 2022, and we are in the middle of a two part epic interview with Kelsey Edwards. Hey, Kelsey.
Kelsey Edwards [00:00:13] Hi. How's it going?
John Dehlin [00:00:14] Good. For those who didn't join us for part one, please pause this episode, go back to part one and watch it. Kelsey Edwards is an actor, a singer, a songwriter. She's known as Internet Big Sis. What is Internet Big Sis?
Kelsey Edwards [00:00:28] Really quickly, I make advice videos for teen girls. That's kind of the ide. Like I, I help them with like, mental health. We talk about anxiety and eating disorders, body image. Just advice videos to be the big sister for them that I wish I had had when I was a teenager. Yeah, love that.
John Dehlin [00:00:43] And Margi's joining us. Hey, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:45] Hey.
John Dehlin [00:00:45] Thanks for being here.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:46] Yes, we're back.
John Dehlin [00:00:49] And just as a recap, we spent the first two and a half hours with Kelsey learning about her orthodox Mormon upbringing, her being raised faithfully in the church in San Antonio and eventually in la and also with a mom and two brothers where they were all trying to be kind of child actors, child artists or stars. And so we talked a lot about her acting career in Los Angeles and all the people she got to know and that sort of thing, and what it's like to be a devout Mormon who's also trying to make it in LA in TV and movie land and dance land, et cetera. So just to also finish that recap, we talked about her family kind of falling apart in her teen years. Her dad leaving the Mormon church, having an opiate addiction, and then her family, her mom trying to do the single mom thing after getting a divorce within Mormonism and kind of how that threw their family kind of into poverty. And they end up in Provo where she starts dancing and competing and eventually goes and serves a devout full time Mormon mission in Alabama. Loves it, comes home and returns to BYU and starts to pursue marketing, but then decides that she wants to continue being an artist, an actor, a musician, a dancer. So as we left off last episode, you had gotten a prestigious internship at a PR firm in New York City and you declined it. This is like your, your final year at byu and that's. But you're still faithful. But you had a few questions lingering from your mission. Is that, wow, is that where we left it?
Kelsey Edwards [00:02:32] That was a stellar recap.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:33] And. And now she's headed to Europe.
John Dehlin [00:02:36] Yes, yes.
Kelsey Edwards [00:02:37] That's where we picked up in the timeline.
John Dehlin [00:02:38] The cliffhanger is what happens in Europe?
Kelsey Edwards [00:02:40] What happens in Europe? So many things happened in Europe, man. I was. It was a crazy trip, to be honest, but it was so fun. And yeah, I just, I dropped my friend and I, I said this. At the end of last episode, my friend Bristol and I decided we're going on a five week backpacking trip to Europe. First time really out of the country. And kind of like the, the experience that came along with that was just like a really big eye opening experience where, you know, you mentioned the Mark Twain quote where, you know, what was it again?
John Dehlin [00:03:12] Travel is fatal to prejudice.
Kelsey Edwards [00:03:14] That I feel like that like encompasses the whole experience because I have lived my life in kind of this like bubble of my world belief, my belief system about how things are. And then I drop myself in another country where no one believes like me and most people don't even believe in God. And I was so confused because I was like, wait, how are these people happy? Like, I don't get it. Like, I have operated under the belief system my whole life that like, you can't be happy and without the gospel. And yet here I am, like riding on a bike through the Netherlands with this really happy family of like, you know, mom, husband and daughter, and they're happy. And you know, it was just a very like, it was like, it kind of like took the root of like the questions that I'd had that came up on my mission and then kind of just like exasperated, exacerbated it to like the next level. And I, I just. It was also my first time for five weeks. I didn't really go to church because we were kind of running around and it was hard to find church buildings. We were moving every couple days. So I didn't really go to church for like over a month, which is probably the longest stretch of time I'd ever had not going to church. And it was like a little bit of break and it was like perspective shift. And it was like all of these people that I was meeting and being completely consumed by a culture that didn't believe in the church and didn't really believe in God. And, and I was like, whoa. You know, it just like, it broke the shelf even more for me at that point and opened my eyes to so many things about myself, about my career, the fact that I didn't want to work a 9 to 5, I didn't want to work a desk job. I wanted to work for myself. I didn't want to be like bound by anyone's rules or restrictions anymore. You know, I wanted to do what I wanted to do for, like, the rest of my life.
John Dehlin [00:04:59] And really quickly, for those who didn't hear the first part, like, you were all in faithful.
Kelsey Edwards [00:05:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:05:06] You know, major themes of perfectionism and even scrupulosity. So it's not like you were looking to sin. It's not like you were reading the CES letter and learning about church history. Nothing, nothing, nothing there's anything wrong with any of that. But I guess I want to have you take us through. Like, how does a senior faithful return missionary, BYU student who's in. Who's the church? Who's for whom? The church is. The Mormon Church is the most important thing in your life.
Kelsey Edwards [00:05:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:05:34] I'm still trying to understand how going to Europe alone makes you to start having a serious crisis of faith. So, like, can you take us to some of the moments or some of the people or some of the places where you really start getting to the point of crisis?
Kelsey Edwards [00:05:52] Yeah. Well, I had, like, the questions that came up for me on my mission. Even though I didn't, like, address them, they were still kind of brooding under the surface all of these years. I got home at the end of 2014. I went to Europe in 2017. So it was like three years of kind of like, don't listen, you know, don't pay attention. Like, just brush it away, Brush it away. Still kind of brewing, you know? And then there was something about the amount of freedom that I experienced when I stepped into another country, completely unbridled. Like, no, no. No one to tell me what to do. No one to tell me where to go, you know, it was just me and my friend and, like, the world was our oyster, you know, Like, I could do anything I wanted. And just having that, like, amount of freedom in a place that was so, so different than any other place I'd ever lived, any other place I'd ever been. Like, really, it's hard to. It just shook me. And I was just like, whoa. Like, there's so much of the world that I don't know anything about, and I'm so small in this grand scheme of things and all of the things that I have been taught. It also really led to the idea and the belief that I have now, which is that there are so many ways to find faith. There's so many ways to believe in God or believe in anything. And the environment, I think it really testified to me the significance of the environment in which you were raised and nature over nurture, or nurture over nature, that I was nurtured into A specific environment. And. And then after pulling myself out of that environment, dropping myself so abruptly into a completely different environment that had nothing to do with anything I'd ever done before, it just, like, was like a light bulb moment for me, you know, that's the best way I can describe it. I'd never seen, you know, so many cathedrals and so many, like, Catholic buildings and things like that. And I'd never been surrounded by so many people that not only didn't believe in the church, but didn't believe in God at all. And those people were commonplace in that country. They were every day, everywhere. Everyone I met was like that. And then I would go into these homes of these people that housed me and my friend. Like, we stayed with this really lovely family in Paris and just seeing, like, the happiness that that family had, like, again, mother, father, daughter, and, like, their sweet life together outside of the context of the church entirely. And then I, you know, I. We stayed with a family friend in Germany and, like, the. The happiness that he had. And we would. Would go on these walks around Munich with him, and then we went to Dachau and, like, learned about the culture and the history there. And it just was, like. It's hard to describe within. It just was like a. It just was a perspective shift for me. And again, I mentioned a family in the Netherlands. We. We stayed in Harlem. Yeah, we stayed in Harlem, which is just outside of Amsterdam, with this really sweet family. It was like, you know, they're. They're really adorable. And that was, like, one of the moments when I realized, like, we. I have always had this belief that because this family is not within the church, they can't have, like, salvation. They can't be together after this life, which we talked about a little bit in the last episode, that there's no way that their happiness and the joy that they're experiencing is actually full, that they have, like, a semblance of joy, you know, and it's just like all of those, like, pieces were splintering for me. So, yeah, it. And it. Like, there was also so many crazy experiences that we happened upon. Like, times that we were, like, didn't have a place to sleep in Rome and, like, found these, like, random people that were, like, Christians and they, like, let us sleep on their floor or, like, we stayed in a free hostel in Greece. And, like, there were just so many world experiences that happened to me on that trip. And. Anyway, sorry, I feel like I'm on a tangent.
John Dehlin [00:09:37] Oh, that's great.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:37] That sounds amazing. It's amazing.
John Dehlin [00:09:40] And it's a common. There's different categories of why people have a faith crisis. One is history and truth claims kind of stuff. One is social justice kind of things. One is kind of like experiencing trauma in the context of the church. But one very common source of a faith crisis is just seeing how big and beautiful and awesome the world can be.
Kelsey Edwards [00:10:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:04] Once you break out of the Mormon bubble.
Kelsey Edwards [00:10:06] Yeah, that's right.
John Dehlin [00:10:07] And that's. It's. It's. It's an important thing to cover. Like, I was surprised at lunch, or you mentioned this last episode that still to this day you've never read the CES letter. This experience is important on Mormon stories.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:19] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:10:19] Because it represents something that we don't cover as often, which is just recognizing how many amazing people are out there and how big and beautiful the world can be. And that can be disorienting for a Mormon.
Kelsey Edwards [00:10:32] Yeah. Yeah. And for someone like me, specifically, you know, where I. Where I, like, boxed myself into a way of living in a lifestyle. I had such ridiculously high expectations of myself. And then to be in this space where I was free, I was like, no one had any expectations of me. I could be anywhere. It was strictly about exploring and seeing the world. I just. I'd never experienced that kind of freedom in my life, you know, and space in space. Yep.
Margi Dehlin [00:11:00] Space to explore yourself and reflect. I think, too. I think so often systems require, on a level, a plug in. You. You've gotta. They work by keeping you continually plugged in so that they can keep you on program. Right. So I don't think it's insignificant that. Particularly with the way you describe to your transition experience being so internal, that a large part of your process was space and reflection, that it also broke you out of the system to. In a. In a place where you could reflect on what was happening to you, that you could say, that's a beautiful life. I could. That beautiful life, or look at that beautiful life over there. And it has nothing to do with what this system has me plugged in to sort of do. And you know, what that life must look like. I just think that's so powerful.
John Dehlin [00:11:53] I mean, we talked about how you. You chose to go on a mission. Right. As the church lowered its mission age for men from 1918 and for women from 21 to 19. There's an actual reason why the church made that change, that they were losing so many teens and they were losing so many of its own members between high school and the mission experience and. And just generally the Mormon church in the late 2010s to early 2000s has been hemorrhaging its youth. And so as it, as the Mormon Church watched its missionary numbers decline and watched its youth and young adults decline, it was panicking that its missionary program was going to go away. So it lit, I don't know if you know this, it literally lowered the mission ages to stop people from going to college, realizing the same freedoms that you realized, discovering that they really didn't want to do any of this, and leaving the church. It's basically saying, let's get them right out of high school onto a mission. And then like you shared with us, with your mission president at the end of your mission, telling you as soon as you get home, get married and start having kids. The church has done studies and they've learned that the sooner they can get people married in the temple and having babies, it locks them in and it basically keeps them on the Mormon train so they can't go to Europe and have an amazing, you know, freedom filled epiphany of bubble breaking joy.
Kelsey Edwards [00:13:38] Yeah, well, that's, that's very interesting. Yeah. You have such a, like a fascinating scientific approach to all of this that I like, don't know anything about. So I think that's.
John Dehlin [00:13:47] Yeah, well, you're just, you're feeling your way through it.
Kelsey Edwards [00:13:50] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:13:50] Which is also super valid, right?
Kelsey Edwards [00:13:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:52] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [00:13:53] But it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:55] Yeah. So I mean, you talked about trying to date at BYU and trying to find that special someone and not finding that special someone. Have you thought about how things would be different if you had found that special someone right after your mission, gotten married in the temple, started having babies and all the, the in laws and everyone or, you know, you made those commitments. You're on the quote, covenant path at that point.
Kelsey Edwards [00:14:18] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:14:19] Can you, how do you get off it?
Kelsey Edwards [00:14:20] I, I've thought a lot about that. I, I just talked about my mom, talked about that with my mom yesterday where I, I said that exact thing where, like, it's funny because there was so much sadness and so much shame over that period of my life. All my friends were getting married, all my friends were in serious relationships having babies. And I was like, what is wrong with me? What is wrong with me? Like, I, I don't understand. Like, I graduated BYU and whatever and I'm single. Like this never happens, you know, whatever. And yeah, I think about that now and I'm like, so grateful. I'm so grateful because I would not be if I had gotten married to any of those guys that I Dated in college. They would not be happy, and I would not be happy.
John Dehlin [00:14:56] You'd be your parents?
Kelsey Edwards [00:14:58] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:58] When your dad left the church.
Kelsey Edwards [00:15:00] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:00] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [00:15:00] Yeah. I mean, and I, you know, I, I, My life has taken such a different direction now that either I would have felt so trapped in that marriage and I would have been so unhappy, or, yeah, I would have, like, left or he would have left me, or. You know what I mean? Like, I, I'm such a different person than I was even when I was 22 or 23. So there's just no way, no way I could ever have, like, ended up in those situations. And I'm so grateful I didn't. So grateful that I had the space to go and explore and, like, pursue my career and pursue my dreams and like, that it's led me to where I am now is the biggest gift of my life, I think.
John Dehlin [00:15:37] So. Going back to Europe, there's this moment that's kind of this really. It's kind of the Truman show moment that we talked about at lunch where Truman sees the lights. He's supposed to be in this world, but then he sees the lights fall to the ground and he realizes he's in a fake world. I'm not saying Mormonism is fake, but I'm. You know, there's this moment, or the red pill, blue pill moment in the Matrix where the, the character realizes that what they thought was real wasn't real. So you're in Europe in your faith, starting to deteriorate before your eyes. Talk about realizing that you're in a faith crisis, because that's its own thing. Did, did you, did you actually say to yourself in Europe, what if it's not true? And then, whoa, I'm losing my faith. What does this mean? Did that happen?
Kelsey Edwards [00:16:26] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:16:26] Okay. Talk about that.
Kelsey Edwards [00:16:27] Yeah, it was a very. It was a very loud internal dialogue. You know, I never. And my, My friend Bristol, she didn't have any idea that I was going through this at the time either. It was a very personal thing that I was struggling with on this trip and realizing, like, oh, no, like, what. What if everything that I've ever believed and everything that I've ever lived is not. Not what I thought it was? And that. That in and of itself is incredibly painful. It's very scary. And I, I remember I even, like, there was this, this sidewalk in London that we came across that someone had, like, spray painted the words, I have doubts. And I walked upon that, and I, like, my heart just sunk. I was like, that. That was like, there for me, like, I even took, like, a little selfie, like, with my shadow in this, like, statement that was spray painted on the sidewalk. Because it. It just was so, like, reflective of my internal dialogue of, like, I. I don't know that I can do this anymore, and I don't know that I believe this anymore. And everything is falling apart. And that's so scary. It's so scary. Especially when you've committed your whole life to a belief system. And, you know, it's not. It's an identity. It shaped every part of who I was. And then to start realizing, like, the splinter that's happening gradually with, like, this belief and this belief and this part of the world and this thing that's shifting. And I don't agree with this, and I don't agree with that. And it's all just like, you're like, wait, stop. Like, I don't want this to happen, you know, And I. I fought so hard. Even. Even in Europe, like, I still. I still pushed it all down and like, I had that freedom and that, like, moment to just be Kelsey and, like, to find myself. And then, even then, I still, I still fought for it. I still pushed away those feelings and was like, no, no, you know, this is true. You believe this. This is your life. You love this. This is everything. So, yeah, it was. It was very like a time of internal conflict, you know?
Margi Dehlin [00:18:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:18:25] So what'd you do?
Kelsey Edwards [00:18:27] Well, I mean, like, I didn't make any harsh decisions on. In Europe, you know, I stayed. I stayed doing whatever we were doing. At the beginning of the trip, we had actually, we'd gone to the London temple, and that was like. That was like another moment of like, do I believe this? I don't really know. Like, do I feel the spirit here? I don't know. You know, but when I. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't make any harsh decisions in Europe, but, like, when I came home, I. I just kind of stayed on the covenant path. And like I said, I. I became. I was actually the Relief Society president at the time. That's right. I was Relief Society president. After you got home or before and after? Yeah, I was really society president before. And then I took my five week trip, came back, and was still really present for that time. It was like a year and a half stretch. And I felt, you know, a lot of shame and a lot of, like, guilt. Like, I'm holding this calling and I'm, you know, overseeing these women and. And stuff like that. And I'm struggling so much with my own faith right now. And, you know, I remember talking about it with my bishop at one point and, like, saying, I'm having issues. Like, I'm. I'm feeling. I'm feeling the pole. Like, what do I do here? And it was always the same, you know, guidance, which is like, lean on what? You know, like, lean on. Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. You know, like, study your scriptures fast, pray. And. And I did. I did. Like, I. I am someone who has studied or did study their scriptures every day. And even all through that whole time of doubt, even in Europe, like, all of that, I still studied my scriptures every day. I still prayed every day without fail, you know, and, like, prayed like, please, please take this away. Like, please. I don't want to have these questions anymore. I don't want to have these doubts building. I don't want to feel this way about this thing that I love. And it just. It just never went away, you know, and it just got bigger and bigger. And even. So I still held on for another year. Like, in 2018, like, I talked about a little bit is like, I was doing a lot of campaigns with the church. Like, I was in a lot of, like, YouTube videos.
Becoming a Spokesperson for the Church
John Dehlin [00:20:26] And how did that happen? Where you started being a. An actor for the church or a spokesperson for the church? How did that even happen?
Kelsey Edwards [00:20:34] Yeah, well, some. Some of it was just, like, act, like, auditioning and then getting cast. Like, I was in a. I was in a video for the church where I played a prostitute, which is super funny and ironic. It's. It's like Moroni Story is what it's called. It's. It's on YouTube still, I think. But it's like a Mormon video or. No, it's. They were making videos at the time about, like, a bunch of people who had gone through significant challenges. And then the church basically, like, you know, they found solace and. And community in the gospel. And it's like Moroni's story, I think, is what it's called. It's on. It's. It was on YouTube for a long time. It's probably still is. But, yeah, I played a. I played a prostitute, which was so funny. I remember, like, them telling me I had to take my garments off for this role. And I was like, wait, what? But it was, like, church sanctioned, you know, So I was like, okay, I guess I'll take them off. I had to wear, like, a mini skirt. It was the first I'd ever worn a mini skirt in my life. But, yeah, so some of it was like me auditioning for these roles and getting cast in, in the videos. And then, yeah, they had, there was a, There was a YouTube channel that the church had for a while. I don't know if it's still up anymore, but it was like answering common questions that people get or like that members of the church get or that people in the church get asked. And so I was like a spokesperson for some of these videos. Like answering what? Well, when, you know, this question comes up, we say this or like when you have this question, this is how we answer these questions. And I can't remember the questions anymore, but it was like a, it was like an ask. Ask the Mormons or like how to channel like a, like an LDS how to kind of a thing. So I was, I was in several videos for that. And then I just started growing like my online presence. That's kind of why I started doing social media, started doing like the big sis stuff. I started making, you know, videos and I was doing YouTube a little bit more seriously at that time.
John Dehlin [00:22:25] And let me ask you one thing. So if somebody wants to kind of take worst faith interpretations, they're going to say, now wait a minute, you don't believe anymore and you're pretending to be Relief Society president when you get home, or you're trying to get jobs and make money and get experience from the church as a nonbeliever. If somebody wants to make a worse faith assumption, I think that would just reflect not understanding how, how much of a journey this is. Or even if you're in serious doubts, you can still be compartmentalized and in other parts of your brain still be very committed. So explain for you how you could do both of being testimony freefall and be like a spokesperson for the church as, as answering gospel questions.
Kelsey Edwards [00:23:13] Yeah, well, the compartmentalization thing you mentioned is definitely a thing. It's also just a testament to like, my commitment to the church at the time and how much I loved it and how much I would have fought for it and done anything for it. You know, even though I had these parts of my internal like, world that were falling apart, I was still so committed to the gospel that it almost didn't matter. And I, I like chose that above anything else. So I still, I still held on and I still did all of those things and you know, I still was completely worthy and like, you know, still had an act of temple recommend, like I said, was still studying my scriptures, still praying, still fulfilling my callings, even though I had these like, ah, you know, internal like, struggles And I think it's also important to note that it was never my intention to walk away. I never wanted to walk away. That was the exact opposite of what I wanted. I wanted to stay more than anything in the world. And I know you understand that, too. Like, we talked a little bit about that.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:14] It's.
Kelsey Edwards [00:24:15] It's some, you know, there's like, this criticism of, like, oh, you just got lazy, or, like, oh, you just got bored, or, oh, you just didn't want to do the work anymore. And it's like, no, this was not the easiest decision to make. This was actually the hardest decision I've ever made in my whole life. And I had to. Yeah, I just. I stuck with it because I didn't want to go, you know, And. And I still. Still parts of me believed it. Still parts of me loved it. And so that's what made it possible for me to continue this journey as kind of like a spokesperson for the church. I was a part of their Light the World campaigns for a long time.
John Dehlin [00:24:49] Like, what is that?
Kelsey Edwards [00:24:50] It's the campaign the church does every Christmas where they, like, it's, you know, talking about, like, different ways to serve and Christ and how you can, like, remember the Savior at Christmas time. And I made several music videos that were, like, a part of their campaign and. And stuff.
John Dehlin [00:25:06] What's it. Really quickly, before we move on from that, what's it like. What's that culture like? Of, like, you know, because on the one hand, you know, every organization is gonna do promo pieces or PR or propaganda or marketing, whatever you're gonna call it. On the other hand, whenever it's, like, supposed to be the church of Jesus Christ, like God's one true church on the earth, as soon as you then get Madison Avenue or, like, PR or marketing or focus groups or actors, but you're supposed to be creating content in the realm of, like, authentic spirituality and testimonies that. And then there's just the. The. The contrast between actors, which are literally faking but faking in a convincing way. And, like, the fact that the marketing pieces are used to either convert people to the church or keep them in the church. I just wonder about the culture behind the scenes of, like, people interacting the business elements, when it's all trying to generate kind of, quote, spiritual but really emotions. Does that. Does that make sense? I know, I know, I know. It's a weird question, but.
Margi Dehlin [00:26:24] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [00:26:25] Well, so help me understand. What is the question specifically?
John Dehlin [00:26:27] Like, what's it like? First of all, I. Is the fact that. What's it like, behind the scenes that business techniques, marketing techniques, sales techniques, multimedia techniques are being used to promote and sell Jesus's true gospel as a product. Is there anything weird about that? Or the actors or producers behind the scenes?
Kelsey Edwards [00:26:52] I mean, I can completely see, like, your. Your point, and I've thought about that, too. I feel like it's. The way that it's, like, phrased is, like, the intention behind it. You know, it's like when you're coming from the perspective of, like, I am doing the most good to get the most good to the most amount of people, it feels. It feels noble. You know, you're using. There's people that have, like, big followings or whatever, and it's like you're utilizing those people to spread the message of the gospel. And, you know, I think. I think, like, that's where the intention comes from. But having, you know, having the point that you made, which is like. Well, it's also. It's a business. It's also marketing.
John Dehlin [00:27:29] You know, some say it's emotional. It can be viewed as, like, Scientology had an I'm a Mormon camp, I'm a Scientologist campaign. That's where we got the idea for the I'm a Mormon campaign. I didn't know that you could really go to YouTube and type in I'm a Scientologist, and they have, like, an artist or a skater doing their thing, and then I'm a Mormon, and it's identical. So, I mean, there is this commercial, business marketing element to the selling of religion as a product, and I could totally see that.
Kelsey Edwards [00:27:59] You know, I didn't have that perspective at the time. It's like, again, it's like you're doing the most good, and you're just, like, adding your goodness to this, you know, big pile of goodness. And, you know, you're making a music video to further the message. But. But yeah, that's. That's definitely a valid perspective.
John Dehlin [00:28:17] Okay, but while you were going through it, you didn't really think about that.
Kelsey Edwards [00:28:19] Nope.
John Dehlin [00:28:21] And. And you said you did a music video for the church. Is that something that's still around, or.
Kelsey Edwards [00:28:27] Yeah, I was involved in Light the world for maybe two years. I think I did, like, their 2017 and their 2018 campaign, and I made two separate, like, Christmas videos that were, like, kind of brought into the.
John Dehlin [00:28:40] To the campaign where you're singing in the videos?
Kelsey Edwards [00:28:43] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:28:44] Oh, wow. Are those videos still available?
Kelsey Edwards [00:28:45] They're on my YouTube. Yeah, it's. If you. They're like, they're always Christmas, so if you look like a couple years back and it has like hashtag light the world on it.
John Dehlin [00:28:53] This is Kelsey Edwards, YouTube.
Kelsey Edwards [00:28:54] Kelsey Edwards. Yeah, YouTube.com Kelsey Edwards.
John Dehlin [00:28:57] Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [00:28:57] But even if you just YouTube search like Kelsey Edwards, hashtag light the world, you'll probably find it. But one of them was a music video I did with my friend Loki. We did like a Silent Night music video. And then maybe the next year, I think I did a music video with my friend Reese and we did Little Drummer Boy. So. Yeah. And, and it's like it wasn't like the church kind of brought those into, like, they didn't necessarily like pay for it or like, you know, in that way, but it was kind of like
John Dehlin [00:29:23] you weren't paid for these.
Kelsey Edwards [00:29:25] No, no, it's, it's like, it's like a volunteer thing, but they do kind of like put it up on their like, platform. They will like sometimes put like ad spend into it, you know, stuff like that. And, and use the videos as like a way to spread the message further.
John Dehlin [00:29:39] I, I, if you're auditioning for things, I would have assumed you would be getting paid. I mean, the church certainly has money.
Margi Dehlin [00:29:46] Yes.
Kelsey Edwards [00:29:46] When, for, when I auditioned for things. Yeah. Like the, the paid work that I did for the YouTube channel. For their YouTube channel. Or the paid work that I did for the Mormon messages or something like that where I was an actor on a set. I did get paid.
John Dehlin [00:29:57] Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [00:29:57] But when I was like using my own Kelsey Edwards brand as like a, you know, public facing, you know, creating my own music video, it wasn't paid for by, by the church.
John Dehlin [00:30:08] Okay. But you're, what you're getting is their promotion.
Kelsey Edwards [00:30:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:12] So it helps build your brand.
Kelsey Edwards [00:30:13] Yeah. And, and you get to be tied into this really awesome campaign. You know, at the time, it really meant a lot to me to be a part of these campaigns. I really love them. So that was really important to me and very valuable to me.
John Dehlin [00:30:24] And I would imagine that would feel super heady and probably affirming if you're like church marketing, PR cameras, like church YouTube. Like I would feel, I would have felt like, wow, I'm really living my righteousness. I'm part of the inner workings of helping, doing missionary work in a way maybe even more impactful than your mission could have ever been because you're reaching millions. I would imagine you that might even be testimony. Affirming. I'm just guessing.
Kelsey Edwards [00:30:58] Yeah, no, it was, it for sure was. And, and during that time, I forgot this too, that I was also hired to do some like, Book of Mormon videos that were, like, breaking down the text of the Book of Mormon and, like, the manuscripts and, like, kind of the history. The history of the Book of Mormon. I was, like, a spokesperson for some of those videos that were, like, sanctioned by the church. I even, like, did a podcast because I was a returned missionary. I. I was like, um, my friend Nick and I, we had, like. I was a co host of a podcast about mission stories for a long time and. Yeah, what's that podcast called? I think it was called Mission Stories. I can't remember anymore. But yeah, we. We like, you know, co hosted this podcast where we talked about, like, our mission stories and we brought other people on and interviewed them about their mission stories and stuff like that. Yes. So to answer your question, it was like, it was faith affirming. I was really excited to be a part of all of these campaigns that, like, really, like, reaffirmed my testimony and my involvement in this bigger picture thing. And I think that was part of the reason why I was able to hold on. You know, I. I had this sense of purpose within the machine, within, like, all of these pieces. And, yeah, I was really committed to the vision of, like, doing. Doing good, you know, doing the most good.
Leaving Mormonism and Reclaiming Identity
John Dehlin [00:32:09] Well, I'm dying to know what happens then. It seems like that would revitalize you and you'd be married and having kids today.
Kelsey Edwards [00:32:16] I know it does. It sure does seem like that, doesn't it? I even, like, I. I dated somebody in 2018, and I was, like, really, like, teetering on in my testimony, but he was not a member of the church, which is kind of actually hard to find in Utah. But I remember he asked me to be his girlfriend, and I was like, well, no, because you. You're not a member of the church, like, and I want to end up getting married in the temple. This is, like, while I'm, like, the most, you know, conflicted, and I still, like, said no to dating someone that I cared a lot about because I wanted to get married in the temple. So that was the direction I thought I was heading also. And from that point forward, it's kind of hard to. It's kind of hard to identify other than the shelf just kept breaking. Like, it just, like the faith was revitalized, but the questions didn't go away. And one of the big things that happened for me and in 2018 was that some friends that were really. I was really close to came out like people that I love very dearly and, like, as gay. Yeah. Two of my male friends, specifically Came out as gay. And I saw, like, how difficult that was for them and how much pain there was associated with that and the fact that they were being rejected by a community that they once were welcomed into with, like, open arms. And that was really hard. It was really hard to see. And it was the moment where I started realizing, like, I don't. I don't think I believe in a God that treats his children differently just because of who they love. Like, I don't think I believe in a God that doesn't allow someone this. Like, this man who's such a good person because he acts on his feelings towards another man, he's not allowed to participate in the gospel fully. I just. I don't think I. I don't think I can resonate with that anymore. And that, like, that really. I mean, the weight of that was really heavy. I think. I think that was enough to, like. Like, blast through all of the other kind of, like, covering up that I had been doing over the last few years was like, it brought me back to the root of all of those questions that I'd had in Europe, all of the questions I'd had on my mission, and all of the feelings that I had where I was like, I don't. The God that I believe in, I don't think is the same as the God that I used to believe in or the God that I've been taught to believe in. And, yeah, I. From that point forward, I started having some small conversations with. With a few people that I knew I could trust. I really didn't talk to a lot of people about my faith. It was very personal. I kept it very internal. I talked to a few friends that were out of the church that I knew I could trust, a few friends that were in the church that I knew I could trust. It was very important to me that I was not to be swayed either way. Like, I don't know what your experience was with that, but I. I did not want to feel pressured to stay, and I did not want to feel pressured to leave. And I told, you know, both friends that I talked to, like, please don't. Please don't encourage me to leave. Like, I'm not ready to do that, and please don't encourage me to stay. Like, I need to be okay with questioning. I need to be okay with exploring the things that I've never really explored but just had doubts about. And so that whole, like, end of 2018 period, I was just like, whoa. I just. I don't think. I don't Think I can do this anymore? Like, I don't, I don't think I can. And I've tried for so long and I've fought against it for years now and I've like, watched myself, my testimony, like go through all these different phases and I fought for it and read the scriptures and prayed and fasted and asked everyone that I could for help. And nothing is changing. It's still, it's still there. And that's like, that's when the weight of the cognitive dissonance was the heaviest. Where I was like, everything that I love is something that I don't relate to anymore. And that sucked. That sucked a lot.
John Dehlin [00:36:07] So how did things, how did things then? Where do they go from there? How do things kind of change?
Kelsey Edwards [00:36:15] Well, I had been so conflicted for so long that I knew coming into 2019, I had planned a move to LA. I was living in Utah, obviously, and I was ready to kind of like depart Utah and like go to la, act out there, pursue my acting and music career out there. And I kind of like, I held on long enough. I gave it my last stitch effort to get through like the start of 2019. And then by the time I moved to, to LA, I was like, okay, I, I need a break, I need a break. And LA gave me the clean slate that I was looking for that I didn't have in Utah. And I was able to. In fact, even when I got to la, I still went to the YSA ward a few times because I was like, maybe I can make it work out here.
John Dehlin [00:37:03] What's that? What's ysa?
Kelsey Edwards [00:37:04] The young single adult word? Yeah. So for people that are like me, you know, single and I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:37:10] Mormon.
Kelsey Edwards [00:37:11] Mormon, Yeah. I was like, I'm gonna go to the YSA ward out here. Maybe it'll be different than Utah. Maybe I'll feel differently here. And even then I just, I just could feel in my soul, I was like, this is not, this is not it for you right now. Like, you, you need to take a break. And I, I knew that, like there'd been so much noise in my head for years about this and so much like uncertainty and weight and heaviness and confusion that I was like, the only way I'm gonna get climbing clarity on this is if I take a step back. Like, I, I just need a break. And so, yeah, so I did that. I, I took, I took my break in LA and I was like, I went to church a few times. I even went to a few non denominational churches to see if maybe I could, like, feel out that vibe and maybe it would be different. And the overwhelming feeling, I just kept checking with myself was like, just take a step back like, you've been doing this your whole life. Give it a break and see where it takes you. And so. So I did. Yeah, I. I did. I took a break and I was like, I'm never, I've never known what it was like on this side, and I'm never going to have the answers that I need if I don't find out. So, yeah, I stopped going to church and I.
John Dehlin [00:38:20] What did you mean by sock monster in a closet? I see that on your, on your outline.
Kelsey Edwards [00:38:24] Yeah, that's. That's a good. That's like the analogy that I use
John Dehlin [00:38:27] when I take us back, tell. Explain that to us.
Kelsey Edwards [00:38:29] Well, that's, that's. This part of the story right here is that when I, When I get to this part point where I, like, take a break and I'm like, wow, like, I thought this would be so scary. Like, I thought this would be. I. I was told that this was like the most scary thing ever, you know, to what? To like, to leave the church.
John Dehlin [00:38:46] Leave the mortgage.
Kelsey Edwards [00:38:47] Leaving. Leaving the church would. Yeah, leaving the Mormon church was like the most scary thing ever. And that I, you know, would be miserable or it would be really hard or there's no way I could be happier. There's no way that I could, you know, actually, like, no true happiness or know myself outside of the church. And I think that it was made up to be this really big scary thing that I never wanted to dip my foot into. And then I did and I realized, like, oh, that's. It feels like a monster in, like a sock puppet in the closet. Like, I feel like I. I saw a monster and I was like, ah, my closet. And then I opened it up and I realized it was like a sock puppet. It was not this big scary thing that I believed that it was going to be. And that was a really powerful lesson for me is like, you have to. You have to try these things. You have. You have to dabble. You know what I mean? Like, you're never going to know until you know. And I've been so far on this side, and I'm never going to know unless I go on this side. And. And then I did, and I. And I learned, like, I actually. I actually am really happy. And there is actually a way to find joy. And outside of the church, I think there's so many places you can find joy. In life, and that doesn't negate somebody else finding joy within the church. I know a lot of people do find joy within the church. I respect that, and I will respect your right to feel that way. And I also ask for the same respect in my right to feel joy in other places. You know, and that was a huge lesson for me to learn. Like, oh, I can. I can be happy. I can be happy and good things can still happen for me. And also, I'm still a good person. Like, I'm not a horrible person just because I don't believe in this, you know, religion anymore. It's not how I identify any. I identify anymore. But I'm still a good person.
John Dehlin [00:40:32] So one of the big fears that people have as they contemplate the possibility of leaving Mormonism is like, drugs are bad, alcohol's bad, extramarital sex is bad. The world is bad and dangerous. You won't have the blessings of Heavenly Father. You. You will be walking away from the covenant path. You're going to fall into wickedness and sin, and you'll become a sex worker and you'll become a drug addict, or you'll have an unwanted pregnancy and have to have an abortion. Like, and then, then. And then there are people who didn't ever learn to do any of that stuff responsibly who do get addicted to things or do wreck their lives kind of living irresponsibly or at least have really hard lessons experimenting with stuff that they never had any education or experience experimenting with. So I guess I don't want to make it sound like for everyone when they leave the church, it's all rainbows and butterflies and. And gumdrops, but it. But for you, it kind of was.
Kelsey Edwards [00:41:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:45] So how do you. Do you have any ideas what made it so seamless for you in terms of your either personality or choices?
Kelsey Edwards [00:41:57] I mean, I think that, like, the only thing I can think of that has made it such a joyful experience, for lack of a better word, is that I. I put myself in a box my whole life. Like, truly. Like, I boxed myself in to living a certain way, being perfect, doing everything right, checking all the boxes, being the most good that I could be. And I. I really. I had such ridiculously high expectations of myself that, like, stepping out of that box gave me room to breathe, like, for the first time in my life, like, truly. And that's. That comes back to how I felt in Europe. You know, I was like, wow, like, I can breathe. You know, I'm. I'm out of My box. And like, this is incredible. I've never felt this before. And then for me, like, being in LA has kind of mirrored that experience for me. Like, I feel, I feel so free. Like, I feel the ability to be myself and be my most authentic self. Nobody has expectations of me. I don't have to answer to anybody. I'm not like, begging for anyone's approval. I'm not sitting and waiting for someone to tell me that I'm good enough or that I'm righteous enough or that I'm, you know, worthy or like, valuable enough. And, and like, for the first time I, I learned how to check in with myself and like, how do I feel about me? Like, how do I feel about my life and where I'm going and what I want to do? And, and like, what do I want actually? Like, what do I want that Kelsey wants? Not because I believe that I should want this or like, that I was taught that I should want marriage and family and kids and what do I actually want? And I've been, I've just been spending the last few years, like, challenging all of those questions and asking myself those really like, core things which probably anybody else has already asked themselves. But like, you know, for me it was like a profound discovery. Like, wow, what do I want? And yeah, I think that that is why it's been sort of seamless, as you say. Like, it's, it's been, it's been an empowering experience. It's been a joyful experience and it hasn't been without its struggles. Without its struggles or its challenges, for sure. I mean, I, I know there are people that are very hurt by my decision. And as, as difficult as that is for me, I can also sympathize because I used to be there. You know, I used to see my friends or family leave the church and I was so hurt by that. So I try to have sympathy for the people that are hurt by my decision. But, you know, it's definitely been challenging, you know, and I know it's been hard on my mom, it's been hard on some of my family members, but. But I also, like, ask for acceptance and understanding that like, my joy might look different than yours and that's okay. And it doesn't make my joy any less valid, and it doesn't make your joy any less valid. We can both experience joy in different, like, places, and they're both valid and they're both okay. So.
John Dehlin [00:44:51] Yeah, So a follow up question, as you were telling us about your Mormon experience, maybe it wasn't as heavy in your description around, kind of like feeling suffocated, feeling like you were in a box. Like you did talk about perfectionism in your teen years. You did talk about eating disorder stuff. And he talked about like not being able to find the right guy and not getting married when you thought you should, but you didn't. You know, let's just say the part one of this episode for me wasn't dripping with you expressions of you saying that during your devout Mormon times, you were feeling like you were in a box. In fact, and this isn't to challenge you, it's to ask you to go back and maybe fill in some things we didn't hear.
Kelsey Edwards [00:45:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:45:43] Because what, what I got, what I took by the end of part one was like, wow, the church was really there for you when you needed it, Which I'm not, I'm not questioning that was true, but that your family broke up. The church was there when you needed it. It helped your family get on its feet. There were leaders that meant a lot to you. It gave you meaning and purpose and drive. That's what I took from part one. Not that you were constantly feeling like you were in a box. So, so not. Yeah, help me understand what I missed in part one or, or go back and fill in and give color to the parts you didn't talk about. Does that make sense?
Margi Dehlin [00:46:26] Or even when, even when that feeling of being in a box emerged, maybe it wasn't then. Maybe it was when you outgrew it and were. You know what I mean?
Kelsey Edwards [00:46:39] Yep, that's exactly what I was going to say is that I don't, I don't look at those years like from, you know, you asked me to stay very present in like that time.
John Dehlin [00:46:49] And while you're going through it.
Kelsey Edwards [00:46:50] Yeah, while I was going through it. And while I was going through it, I did not perceive it as a box. You know, I was very comfortable with where I was. Like, I was very happy. I loved the gospel. It was everything to me. So even though I was in my perceived box, I didn't know that and I didn't, I didn't dislike the box. You know, it was comfortable for me, it was home for me. And it wasn't until I had those perspective shifting moments like on my mission and especially in Europe where I realized I have been living in a box, you know, and I'm not saying, like, I think a few people have been offended by me calling my experience the box. I'm not saying the church itself is a box. I'm talking about my perception of my life and the way that I lived in a box. I boxed myself in. And that doesn't mean the church itself is a box, but. But for me, it was, you know, and I was really happy in it until I realized I wasn't. And I realized all of the ways that I had been bending myself and molding myself into this version of me to fit in this box, to fit in this perfect box and to be so perfect and righteous, and the amount of shame that I carried for any mistake I ever made and the amount of, like, you know, shame that I had over my family for not being the perfect family. And, you know, all of these. All of these things, like, even the fact that, like, I didn't have, like, normal dating experiences, you know, because of the amount of shame that I felt there, but I wasn't uncomfortable with that at the time because it was normal to me. Like, I was happy with that. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't know anything else. It's just like, yep, really comfortable in my box here. Like, this box is really great. And then. And then it really. It took me becoming very uncomfortable to realize I am. I am, in fact, in a box.
John Dehlin [00:48:36] So a lot of times when. When people leave the church when they say they're in a box, not always, but sometimes it's like, well, I want to drink or I want to do drugs or I want to sexually explore. Maybe that's sometimes more men than women. But then there's a flip side, which is just how. How women. Women's options and women's roles can be viewed as very limited. For you, looking back, what were the main ways that. That you were probably feeling boxed in?
Kelsey Edwards [00:49:17] I think it was partially like, the roles that you said. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't until, like, probably that trip in Europe that I realized, oh, I don't have to, like, do the traditional route. Like, I don't even. I didn't even have to go to college. You know, Like, I don't have to work a 9 to 5. I don't have to have a desk job. I don't have to get married right away. I don't have to have children. I don't have to have five children, you know, and like, those traditional expectations that I had for myself, I did want that for a time. I really did. But I also think I was taught to want that. And, you know, in the time since that, I have completely changed my trajectory of my career path. I don't want to be A stay at home mom. I don't know that I even want to be a mom, which is something I've never said publicly before, but I don't know that I'll ever have kids. Like, at this point, my fur baby is doing great for me, but I feel like. I feel like I was boxed in a little bit with the traditional expectations of women, which might have been my own perceptions, but I was boxed in a little bit with, like, the perfectionism, my unrealistic expectations of myself, the way that I wanted to be so perfect. And I think a lot of it has to do too, with answering to somebody else, you know, and that was a huge box for me is like, always looking to somebody else, always looking to another authority, another person outside of me to be deemed good enough, to be deemed righteous enough, to be deemed perfect enough, to be deemed, like, valuable. And to me, the biggest shift in breaking out of this box has been learning that it's okay for me to be my own authority. It's okay for me to check in with myself. It's okay for me to ask myself, how do you feel about this, Kelsey? What do you want? Like, check into your heart, check into your soul. What feels good for you right now? And like, it's. It's almost been like. Like a return to self. Like a return to self. That's. That's a good way to describe it is a backing away from asking anybody else for authority, for approval, for goodness, you know, for value, and checking back in with me. What feels right? How do I feel about myself in this moment? What do I want? Where am I going? Do I feel good? Do I not feel good? Why do I not feel good? And. And like, ridding myself of all of the rules and expectations I was taught by everybody else and going back to me in my wholeness.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:43] I love that so much. I love that so much. And I see that and feel that in your story. And I love it because too, it ties in a couple places in your story, your time at byu and that kind of pressure and in many ways, like, self doubt of, like, why can't I find a human? Like, am I not lovable? Like, why is this so hard? You know, and this trying to find your own significance in another and then having on a level, your Europe experience where it was like, you found it, it was just you, it was inside you, it wasn't actually in another person, you know, So I love that idea of, you know, you found yourself is the thing. Instead of looking outside yourself, it actually was. Was in you and another thing I really love that you kind of talk about that I see oftentimes with people kind of looking back in their life that you kind of did in real time, which I also think is powerful, is that, you know, when you're conditioned in a certain way, taught from a young age what to value, what to expect for yourself, what your role is, how to show up, you can kind of forget it's a choice. You. You kind of just go on automatic, you know? And it was like, in that time in Europe, that unplugging, it was, like, what you came to was, oh, it's a. It's a choice. Like, oh, wait a second. I have choices. You know, and that. That was such a crucial. To me, it feels like such an important part, like, point in time for you to actually recognize, okay, wait, I'm waking up, and, you know, I actually have choices. I can choose for myself, you know,
Kelsey Edwards [00:53:37] that's exactly how I feel. Yeah, that's exactly what it. What it was for me. It was. It was a moment of, like. It was like, maybe the first time in a long time that I had, like you said, kind of unplugged from the autopilot and, like, checked into me and, like, where are you at? Like, what do you want? And there's something about traveling, too, where you learn how to follow your intuition, you know, you don't. I. I'm like the kind of traveler where I don't have too much of a plan. I just, like, get out there and I follow my heart. Like, where do I want to go right now? Which street do I want to walk down? Where do I want to go eat, you know, and it's like this. This really intuitive process of checking in with self and being, like, self led. And that was, like, the first time I'd ever experienced that in Europe and. And a little bit on my mission, but the intention was completely different. You know, when you're following your heart on your mission, you're really following the spirit. And, like, where does the spirit say we should go right now? Where does. You know, you're following that? But this was about following me and Bristol, my friend, of course, but, like, both of us, you know, what feels good right now to me? Like, where do I want to go? And, yeah, that just awoke. Awoke something in me that I had never experienced before. And it just like.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:43] And it's like a different or a new part of you emerged during that. During that, you know, time that you were there.
Kelsey Edwards [00:54:51] Yeah, it did 100. And it changed. Yeah, it changed Everything after that, because even. Even during the chapter of my life where I was pursuing my acting and social media career, that was still new, but I was still trying to fit it within the confines of doing it within the church, you know what I mean? Like, that returning to my acting career was like a breath of fresh air, but I'm still going to do it within this kind of world that I know and love and want to stay in. So it took going through that even and then being like, okay, no, I can break off those, you know, bumpers and then just like, do the full, full thing in LA and do it my way.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:27] Yeah, you, like, tested it out. It's like there's a lot of just natural exploration where you had that moment, you had those times in Europe, you come back and you're. You're a bit. You've shifted, you've changed, like, a lot of things inside you. And so you're. You're testing out and seeing, okay, if I go back in and I work on this project or I try, you know, to do good here, how does that feel? And then you're, like, taking that in and saying, no, I think I can let that go now or that doesn't totally. It's. I really appreciate the organic kind of in the moment. Like, I really feel that from you in your story, which is so, like, it's. It's a beautiful thing to witness, knowing where you've been. Right. And. And kind of where you've come from in really needing safety at certain times in your life. It's just. It's like this beautiful. It's a. It's a really. It's just a beautiful, becoming.
Kelsey Edwards [00:56:30] Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah, it's. It's been. It's been a very healing journey for me as well, to be able to. Yeah. Find that. Find that peace and returning to self and returning to my own wholeness and not having to ask everybody else or not living up to everybody else's expectations of me. And, you know, you mentioned that in part one, where it's like, I learned from a very young age, like, how to, you know, this is the standard now. You meet it as a performer, as whatever it might be. You know, these are your expectations now you're gonna meet them. And to be able to like, finally rid myself of all of that and just like, come home.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:07] Yes, come home. It's like setting yourself free.
Kelsey Edwards [00:57:11] Yeah. Yeah, it really. It really is.
John Dehlin [00:57:14] My Mormon. I'm always, like, observing my Mormon brain when it's acting. And one of the things we're all conditioned as believing Mormons to think and feel is when we hear things like, I know what's best for me, or, I'm gonna do what feels right to me. You're already nodding your head. What comes to your mind when you hear that? You know, you're like, I'm my own authority, you know?
Margi Dehlin [00:57:37] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [00:57:37] And that's a pro. That's not.
John Dehlin [00:57:39] In Mormonism. What is that great?
Kelsey Edwards [00:57:40] That's not good. That's like. That's like pride. It's pride, yeah. It's relying on your own understanding, like leaning. What does that lean? Not unto thine own understanding, but whatever
John Dehlin [00:57:49] the rest is, always acknowledge him.
Kelsey Edwards [00:57:51] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:57:51] You shall direct your path.
Kelsey Edwards [00:57:52] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:57:53] It's pride. It's arrogance. It's selfishness. How do. What do you do? Do those. Do those thoughts? Does that programming come into your mind when you talk this way?
Margi Dehlin [00:58:07] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:58:07] And as you've gone through this journey and how have you processed that programming?
Kelsey Edwards [00:58:12] I would say I'm still processing it, because absolutely that does come to mind. When my whole life, it was like, not my will, but thy will be done, you know, and like, you're submitting your own will to Heavenly Father's will. And it's like God has a plan for you, and, you know, you follow God's plan for you, and it's. It's so much not about self and so much about, like, following God's plan for you, you know, and submitting your will to his. And I think there's. I think there's a beauty in that. And I still can see in my current view of spirituality, I can still see some, like, applicable parts of that in the sense that, like, I believe in, like, the universe, and I believe in trusting the universe, and that everything is working out for me, and the universe, like, you know, will take care of me. And so, like, in some ways, like, I can see the similarities, but it's different in the sense that I. I come back to source myself. Like, I check into me, and I check into my own needs and my own wants and stuff. So, yeah, even when I. When I sometimes express those feelings to people that are still within the church, I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding in the sense that they do have maybe some of the thoughts that you said, which is like, oh, that's like, prideful, or you're, like, not trusting God. You're trusting yourself. Like, you know, and I don't really have an answer for that other than that I'm still. I'm still working through that and trying to redefine what God is, redefine who I am, redefine the, you know, the trust and the faith aspect without losing sense of self. I. I believe that. I believe in a general trust in the universe, but I also believe in myself and, like, my capacity and, like, my abilities. So still navigating that one. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:00:01] If I can just share, like, I've thought a lot about. I. I remember Oprah just saying something to the effect of, you can't give what you don't have. And that, you know, and. And I remember, like, reading the Giving. No one ever read the Giving Tree to me when I was growing up, the story of the Giving Tree. But I read it to my kids, and it didn't take long for it to occur to me how awful, truly awful the Giving Tree story is, because the tree basically gives everything that it is up and it ends up a stump. You know, you just had an emotional.
Kelsey Edwards [01:00:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:00:34] Why is that?
Kelsey Edwards [01:00:35] Just because that's like, that's been a huge. I mean, a huge shift for me and my identity too, is like, always putting people before myself, you know, like bending over backwards, people pleasing. We didn't even talk about people pleasing. But that's been. That along with the perfectionism. I would say that's a huge. That's been a huge story of mine, too. And you saying that just brought that up for me that, like, my whole life I was conditioned to be a people pleaser. And whether that was, you know, combination of, like, anxiety or trauma or whatever speaking, it can come from many things, as we know. But that was a huge, huge story of mine, was just giving and giving and giving other people before me, you before me, you before me, you before me, and bending over backwards, you know, till I break. And that has been another. When we. When you talk about, like, the return to self has been the ability to choose myself over other people. Which even saying that right now sounds selfish when it comes out of my mouth, but, like, for the first time in my life, I've learned that that's not selfish. It's actually a beautiful thing to choose yourself and to return to self and to honor self. And that checking in with yourself and your boundaries is a very beautiful, healthy practice before you're able to. That doesn't mean, like, you should not care about anybody else, but it means putting your own needs and your own boundaries first and then from that place, knowing how you can accommodate somebody else. And that is a huge lesson for me that I never knew. So, anyways, thanks for saying that, because that just like brought up all that for me.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:02] And that's brilliant, really, for you to have come to that so quickly and, and knowing it's a practice. Right? It's something that's the thing about conditioning is we, we meet it and we can cognitively believe different, a different way, and it can still come up for us, you know, all the same. But so, so brilliant.
Kelsey Edwards [01:02:24] Thank you.
John Dehlin [01:02:25] When I think about these words, and this is just now, we're just dialoguing here a little bit, so we're breaking out of the story for a minute. Like, selfish is like me, me, me, mine, mine, mine. It's all about me now. That's clearly probably not the best way to live. Then there's selfless, which is like, you don't have a self. You know, you don't even know who you are. You don't even exist. I don't think that's the way to go. And that's sometimes a high demand religion or a cult can just take your identity away. And you, there is no real authentic you. You're just whatever the organization wanted you to be. So selfishness is in the way and self lessness isn't the way. But then I think about the word self centered, and that's also has a negative connotation to it. You're centered on yourself. But that's a word I'm okay wanting to reclaim because it means. It goes back to this idea that Oprah first said, which is you can't give what you don't have. It basically says, first of all, you matter. You matter. Like you matter. Your health matters, you're being your best self matters, Your own talents and your energy and your health and your resources and your strength and your vitality and your interests, that matters. And that's okay. It's okay for you to be centered on yourself and your own best self, your own self development, your own self knowledge. So, number one, I like self centeredness because each of us matters. You matter, you matter, Everyone matters. And we all should be our best self because we matter. And then the second part of that is, you know, Oprah would say, you can't give what you don't have. In other words, if you're depleted because you're running around pleasing everybody else and you don't want to live anymore because you're exhausted or depressed, well, what good are you to anybody else? You're not getting. You're not any good to yourself, and you're also not good to anybody else. So if you're self Centered in the sense of self development and self care. Then once you've got things figured out, then you're. You're able to be more of a resource for other people who are in need. You're more of value and you can help them become their best self because you figured that out for yourself. And it doesn't have to be like sequential. You can do these things simultaneously. But that's why I kind of like this idea of, of reclaiming self centeredness as a positive thing. And the ironic thing is that Jesus himself said it. He said the kingdom of God is where. Do you remember what Jesus said?
Kelsey Edwards [01:05:11] Nope, I don't remember.
John Dehlin [01:05:13] He said the kingdom of God is within.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:15] Ah.
John Dehlin [01:05:17] He didn't say follow the corporation and do what they say. He said the kingdom of God is within.
Kelsey Edwards [01:05:23] Wow.
John Dehlin [01:05:23] Which to me means figure out yourself, what turns you on, what, what is best for you and your mental health and who you are and how you're oriented. And then you can be your best self for other people. That's my little monologue.
Kelsey Edwards [01:05:38] I love that. Wow. No, that was beautiful.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:42] I would say also kind of, in addition to that, this idea, you know, for me, anytime you are part of a system that requires you to distrust yourself to be part of it, meaning don't listen to yourself innately. You don't know. You got to listen to this person over here who knows about you more than you do anytime there's like that present. And then I would also say you're kept so busy or you're kept kind of, you know, under this list of things to do that there's no place to breathe. To me, that feels like that is how you know you're being controlled. You're vulnerable to being controlled by people. Because if you're connecting with yourself, right. In a, in a system, you actually have this reflective, like, does this work for me? Do I have. What are my preferences? What do I want to do? A lot of the questions you're asking, right? So you have. And if you trust yourself, then you're going to listen to that. It's going to be like, oh, and, and no. If you're, if someone's trying to use you or you know, have your work, have your time, have your money, have your. They don't want any of that. So those two things to me show that you are, you know, on a level, you're protecting yourself. You're showing up for yourself first. And that is a protection against those who would exploit you.
John Dehlin [01:07:25] Yeah. Because anybody who, anybody who wants to tell you who you are and what's good for you without even really taking the time to ask you what makes you happy and what, what's healthy for you. They, they're exploiting you. They're using you as a resource for their own gain. Now, a Mormon bishop or even Mormon general authorities, they don't think of it that way. They think of themselves, oh, we're teaching the gospel like you, we're spreading joy in the world. But, but the church, any high demand religion or corporation or organization can't. Acts. ACTS is a self interested, exploitative kind of machine because people get chewed up and used as resources for the benefit of the organization. And in that way it really is like the matrix where all these people are plugged in to this central force that's just siphoning the, the lifeblood out of people. And that's what, that's what cults and, or high demand religions and or unhealthy corporations do is they just under the guise of knowing what's best for you, they take your time, they take your money, they take your identity, they take your resources and then the organ, you, you know, you fast forward 100 years and the corporation's worth a trillion dollars, you know, and a lot of good built on the backs of a lot of good people that probably would have used their money and their time and their reputations in very different ways if they had to believe that the organization was led by God.
Kelsey Edwards [01:09:04] Wow. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:06] So I have a question for you.
Kelsey Edwards [01:09:08] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:08] To get back to you is how has it felt for you in this shift? So this shift from listening to other people about what your life and what your life should look like and where you should be right now and, you know, how it should feel. What does it feel like now? Practicing this new way of showing up where you are connecting with yourself and, and you are making these decisions by reflecting, by trusting, by trying out, you know, what does that feel like for you?
Kelsey Edwards [01:09:45] Yeah, I mean, it feels very, very empowering, I would say, for like lack of a better word. I think that, you know, and I had habits of, of checking in my whole life, but it came in the form of prayer. You know, it came in the form of checking in with somebody else or something else or whatever it might be. And now to like feel like this, like return to my own self, my own power. You know, that comes often in the form of journaling, it comes in the form of meditation. It comes in the form of, you know, taking time to be quiet and to be still and to think and to feel and It. It is. It's very, like. It's very holistic, and it feels very healing. And I think the word I keep coming back to is, like, I feel like I was laden down by expectations from everybody else my whole life. And because of the person that I was, I was so eager to meet those expectations and to be that person and do it all the way. And now I'm able to just kind of shed myself of any expectations, any other preconceived notions, anyone else's thoughts about me, and just, like, tap into me and own my own truth and own my own, like, way of being. And that has been. It's been really freeing. It's been really beautiful for someone who's lived the way that I have lived for so long to be able to just step into my wholeness and to find my authenticity and being the most genuine version of me. I am truly. And this is hard for some people to hear, but I am truly the happiest version of myself that I've ever been. And again, that's hard for some people to internalize or to understand or to even really believe me. They hear me say that and they're like, no, not. You're not actually happy. That's not possible.
John Dehlin [01:11:31] You know, because the church teaches wickedness never was happiness.
Kelsey Edwards [01:11:34] Well, yeah, I mean, the church teaches that the. The fullness of the gospel is joy. Like, that's how you. The fullness, having the gospel is what brings ultimate joy in your life. And without that, you can't truly have joy. Like, that's the teaching that at least I was taught my whole life. You know, I. I guess I can't speak for everyone, but, like, for me, that was my understanding. And I'm now in this place where I'm actually experiencing a more full joy, a more authentic joy that is rooted in my wholeness and myself. And I'm happier than I was because I don't. I don't have all these, like, rules and expectations and things that I have to, like, live up to. But, yeah, that. That's hard for some people to understand. And I get it. I was in that place too, so I have sympathy for that. But. But, yeah, like, life's good. Great.
Challenges, Healing, and Life After the Church
Margi Dehlin [01:12:21] So you shared. You've shared a number of, like, positive kind of things as you have transitioned a bit. How about. Have there been any particularly hard, you know, or. Yeah. Have you experienced loss or along the way? And if so, what. What are some of those things?
Kelsey Edwards [01:12:41] Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely been a lot of. A lot of loss and and some pain, you know, And I talked, I talked a little bit about my mom. We shared. I released a song, as you mentioned at the beginning of last episode, called Life in a Box. And in this video, I released a video of me showing the song to my mom. And she was very positive and loving in this video. But I think that it's important to note that it wasn't always like that. You know, this has been, it's been difficult for my mom and I. Like, we are very close. My mom is my best friend. I love her so much, you know, more than like anybody on this planet. Like, my mom is my everything. And to be in a place where I don't want to cry, but yeah, to be in a place where I feel like I've almost like disappointed her has been really hard. And like, I'm not the, I'm not the version of me that she raised me to be, you know, And I know that's been hard for both of us to reconcile and she has. We've had a lot of, a lot of painful conversations and a lot of, you know, arguments and a lot of like, misunderstandings and it's, it's been hard. It's been really hard. I'm very grateful that we're now at a point where we do have love and we do have open mindedness and we do have like, acceptance. And she's able to like, hear my side of things and she's able to share her side of things and we can find common ground and find that love and that acceptance for each other. But like, it's been, it's been hard, you know, especially when I was so, so deeply in the church, you know, I wasn't just a casual member. I was not just like a, you know, I was so devout, so perfect, for lack of a better word. So like straight arrow, like never made any mistakes. And like I was the most righteous. And anyone that has found out that I've left has all said, I never saw that coming. Never saw that from you, never expected that from you. And that's been hard, you know, and there's been a lot of questions, even up until this. At the time that I released my song, that was kind of like my coming out, for lack of a better word. But, you know, people would kind of slip into my DMs and be like, hey, I noticed you posted a picture at like a gala and you're not wearing your garments. Like, what's up with that? You know?
John Dehlin [01:14:54] Yeah, only Mormons get to ask about
Kelsey Edwards [01:14:56] people's Underwear, Like, I don't know how that's your business, but okay, you know, and, like, a lot of questions like that. I got a lot of questions about my activity in the church before I even shared that I'm not active in the church anymore. And, yeah, those are hard to navigate. And since the release of this song, there has been a lot of love for Life in a Box. There's also been a lot of pain. There's been a lot of people that have been really hurt by my decision. I've had some friends openly, like, walk away and say, like, I can't be a part of this chapter of your life anymore. I've had, you know, people, like, pass their own judgment on to me and make comments like, oh, don't worry, you'll come back. You know, I've had, like, people say, like, you don't. You don't seem happy anymore. Like, what's up with that? Like, when will you be happy again? We're always going to be here for you, you know, Just like, as if
John Dehlin [01:15:48] you don't know your own happiness.
Kelsey Edwards [01:15:50] I don't. Apparently, I don't.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:51] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:15:52] I'm like, I guess you didn't listen to my song because the first line is, I'm really happy, but. But I guess I don't seem happy. But, you know, stuff like that, it's just. It's. It's been, you know, and, like, of course there's Internet trolls, which, like, that's whatever. But after. After a point, it does get a little. It does get a little exhausting to, like, have people make comments like, wow, what did you even do on your mission for 18 months? Like, sit on your butt. Like. Like, you don't know anything about me. You don't know anything about my mission or, like, my story. And, like, a lot of just, like, assumptions I think about, like, my life from people who don't know me and assumptions about me from people who do know me. Like, at some point you must have just gotten really lazy. Or some people you gave up. Some point you gave up. Or, like, some people, at some point you just, you know, didn't want to do it anymore. Like, it was too much work. And it's like, it's none of that. Truly none of that. And I've had some people feel, like, personally victimized by my decision to leave the church, which is very interesting, too, you know, like, this is my personal life and my personal decision, and somehow you have made it about you.
Margi Dehlin [01:16:54] Right.
Kelsey Edwards [01:16:56] That's hard for me to understand. But, you know. Yeah. It feels like a personal attack when someone you love and care for leaves the church. And a lot of. I've been getting a lot of that reflected back to me, so. So yeah, there has been some negativity, there's been some pain, especially with the release of this song. But, you know, I felt like it needed to be done. Like, it just, it came poor. It came pouring out of me like I was on a plane to Singapore. And I feel like the. Sometimes art, like songs, like feelings, they're just swirling around in your brain for so long that like the second you kind of tap into it, it' you know, and it just like splats out on a piece of paper and you're like, well, there's that. Like, I guess I have to do something with that now. I still wasn't even planning on releasing this song. Like, I was just gonna keep it for myself and, and just like play it occasionally on shows and stuff. But I played it at a show and, you know, somebody's. A couple friends came up to me and they were like, I, I. That song said everything that I ever felt and like, I think you need to share that. And I was like, okay, I guess I will. I wasn't planning on doing this, but.
John Dehlin [01:18:01] What do you mean, a show?
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:02] Oh, like a show. I was. Yeah, I was performing like at a venue in la.
John Dehlin [01:18:05] You perform at venues in la?
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:07] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:08] It's kind of cool.
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:09] Thanks. Yeah, it's.
John Dehlin [01:18:10] So you're just. Are you like a. How do you. You get gigs or people invite you or how does that.
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:15] Yeah, there's booking agents and they'll like, there's like a couple and they'll send you emails like, hey, I've got availability at this venue. This venue, this venue. And like the Viper Room or El Cid or, you know, this one that I had played, I was called Molly Malone's. Like there's, there's tons of venues are all around la and they're always like looking for artists that they trust to book them. And then you, you book the venue and then you sell tickets and stuff.
John Dehlin [01:18:35] And even though ex Mormons or Mormons in faith crisis are really vibing with the life in a Box song, Mormonism isn't the only box.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:44] That's right.
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:44] Right.
John Dehlin [01:18:45] So it's, it's got a universal message that's much bigger than Mormonism or even high demand religions.
Kelsey Edwards [01:18:51] Right. That I've learned that for sure. Like, it's been a really beautiful thing to see people take something that you made and like kind of turn it into their own thing. Like, this really, like, beautiful lesbian couple used my song to kind of, like, share their story about how they came out and they're tired of living in their box, you know, and for them, the box was like, having to hide their. Their love, you know, and that was really powerful. And another woman used the song to talk about her experience, like, divorcing from her children's father and, like, how she had to make the really painful decision. There's a line in the song that's like, I hate that my freedom is making you cry. And she used that line to, like, relate to this divorce that she's going through. Like, I hate that my freedom is making my children cry. And so, yeah, that's been really cool to see. Like, music and art in general is just, like, a very universally.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:42] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:19:42] Applicable thing. Like, people are going to find the way to make it their own, which is beautiful to me, I think.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:19:47] If we can find a way to splice your song into this episode. I just don't want to be banned for copyright violations.
Kelsey Edwards [01:19:53] Oh, yeah, no, I get that.
John Dehlin [01:19:55] So if we can, I'll just tell my audience we'll try and splice this.
Kelsey Edwards [01:19:58] I think you can do, like, up to 15 seconds or something. I don't know. Is that how it works? But anyway, if not, go. Go look it up.
John Dehlin [01:20:06] Well, sure. Is there. Is there a YouTube video of the song?
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:09] It's a. It's not like a music video, but it is on YouTube, so it's like you can search Kelsey Edwards Life in a box and the YouTube song will pull up.
John Dehlin [01:20:16] Okay.
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:16] Yeah, it's on Spotify. It's on Apple Music itunes. Anywhere you listen to music. YouTube.
John Dehlin [01:20:21] It's a great song.
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:22] Thank you.
John Dehlin [01:20:22] So.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:23] So I'm kind of hearing that you've experienced some loss and pain basically, around people's responses to you changing. Is that right?
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:36] That's where the pain. A lot of pain has come in your. In your experience.
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:40] Yeah, yeah, I would say so. And just the fact that it has been so unexpected for so many people, and I think a lot of people don't know how to handle that.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:49] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:20:50] You know. Yeah, it kind of. It came out of left field for some people. I think it was like, you know, especially, like, my childhood friends, people that I grew up with, people that I was really close with in my homeschool group. Like, a lot of them have felt like, I don't. Like, betrayed. That's a good word for it. Like, betrayed. Like what? Like, that's not the version of Kelsey that we always knew. Like, who are you now? Like, I'm so confused by this and that. You know, I get it. It's also like, some of these people have not been a part of my life for like years. So, you know, they've missed the journey. Yeah, I've been on a journey, man. I don't know what to tell you.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:26] Okay, I have a quick question for you around healing. What does healing look like for you right now?
Kelsey Edwards [01:21:34] I have really, this year especially have really like, I've done a lot of therapy. I've been to a lot of therapy, which, you know, I have my mother to think for the emphasis on that because she is a therapist now and she's really amazing and has helped me go through various forms of like brain spotting therapy and like working through my stuff in that way. This year I have really gone on like a healing journey to redefine spirituality for me because after kind of taking a break from the church, I went through this phase where I like didn't believe in anything at all. And I was like, I don't believe in God. Like, I don't believe in anything. I don't believe whatever God, spirituality, I don't know. And it was just like, I was just so like consumed by it my whole life that I needed a break before I was willing to even revisit that there could be anything that I could believe in. But this year has been really powerful for me because I have learned what spirituality looks like to me outside of the confines of religion, outside of the confines of like a structure that I was raised within to believe within. And so it's been really healing for me to define, like, okay, I do believe in God in a form. I don't think it's the same God that I was taught to believe in. I believe in the universe. I believe in a universe that's probably be governed by God or by source. And so really going through that healing journey of like, like I said, meditation. I've done a lot of meditation. I've done a lot of journaling this year. I've done a lot of introspective work. I've done a lot of breath work, which is another really powerful modality for healing. You know, sound baths. Like, I went to Tulum, Mexico for my birthday in March and just did like a whole like week long meditation self realization retreat where like the whole goal was like a return to self. And it was a really, really difficult but really powerful and beautiful experience where I learned so much about myself and Learned, like, my own spirituality and, like, what God is, who God is, you know, how I relate to God. And I'm still on that journey. And like, I. The beautiful thing is now I don't. I don't need to have answers. You know, I've lived my whole life thinking that I needed all the answers. And now I'm in a place where I. I don't. And I don't. It's okay if I don't know everything. It's okay. Because the reality is nobody knows everything. Even though we think we do. It's all still a hypothesis, you know, nobody really knows what it's going to be like on the other side. We just have, like, a very core belief of what it might be like. And I'm okay with not knowing, you know, I'm okay with just having. Having questions and. And living in that space of, like, figuring it out. And. And in the meantime, I have, like, this relationship with myself, which is beautiful and healing in and of itself. So.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:14] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:24:18] So that's kind of spirituality. What about community? So, you know, the church was there for you and your family when things went south. You're out in L. A. I think one of the biggest existential problems of the 21st century is loneliness. And so how. How are you coping without a YSA word? How are you coping without award? How are you coping without a faith community?
Kelsey Edwards [01:24:46] Yeah, that's a great question, because I. I will say that, like, that is a really beautiful aspect of the church is the community. And that no matter where you go, you can find, you know, a ward or a church building that's teaching the same things anywhere around the world. And at first, that was hard for me. At first that was like, you know, okay, where do I find my community? But I've learned that, like, community comes from passion. Like, community arises from your passion. And so if you find passion in the church, then you're going to find community in the church. I find passion in my. In my life, in my relationships, in my career, like in music, in film. Like, I find passion in all these other areas of my life. So a community around these areas has naturally developed. And I've always been, like, a very much a people, people person. I was going to say people pleaser, which is also true. But I've always been, like, very much a people person. Love people, love networking and have always, like, been drawn to people, no matter where I go, and drawn to creating connections. And so that has actually come pretty naturally for me and finding a new Community in LA that matches my passions and matches my interests and the way that I view the world. And we talked a little bit about this at lunch, but I feel very strongly now that like, we create our own reality, you know, through, through so many things through, like the programming that we've, you know, been raised with or like the, the way that we view the world is, is a collection of everything else around us. It's your culture, it's your upbringing, whatever. And so I have decided I'm creating the reality for myself that I find it beautiful people in la that I find beautiful people that I'm drawn to that are drawn to me. That like, we connect on a deep level and the people that don't meet that standard, like naturally kind of fall away. And I released a song in 28, 2020 when I, I wrote it when I moved to LA though. It's called Salt. And it's, it's very much about the same thing. It's like I'm creating my own reality, I'm creating my own story now and I'm choosing that like things are working out for me. So anyways, that was a long winded way to answer your question, but choosing, choosing that I have community, choosing that I have my own people, choosing that I have the life that I dream of is, has been a very powerful practice in making it real, creating that reality for myself.
Siblings, Career Dreams, and Closing Reflections
John Dehlin [01:27:07] Do you want to share anything about your siblings journey or do you want to just not talk about their journey?
Kelsey Edwards [01:27:13] I, I didn't ask them like what I could and couldn't say. I don't know. What. Yeah,
John Dehlin [01:27:21] okay, what about, is there anything you want to share about dating? As a former Mormon there, whether, whether it's people who ended up divorced or young people that just, you know, left the church before, there's a lot of people that are like, wow, dating without the rules of Mormonism, that would might seem terrifying.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:47] Has it been for you or has it. Have you even.
Kelsey Edwards [01:27:50] Yeah, I've definitely dated, you know, since, since leaving the church and I had really like pretty serious relationship last year or I guess it's been, it's been like a year and a half, but. But yeah. And like when I first started like trying to date outside of the church, that was really scary because there's kind of this sense of like safety, protection within the church. You know, when you're dating members of the church, you have the same standards, you have the same rules. You know, it's like we both know neither one of us wants to talk to the Bishop, you know, so it's like we both have like the same, like guideposts essentially. But once you kind of break out of the, out of like that and you're dating non members, you, like, there's other conversations you have to have, you know, about like, what your boundaries are, like, what's okay for you. And you know, hopefully you go on dates with people that are respectful and understanding and kind and, and stuff like that. But, you know, the standards are definitely different and like, the ways of dating are definitely different. You know, like, like hookup culture is definitely a thing and it's not something I participate in, but like, no shame to anyone who does. But I think that like, it is, you know, it's coming from a very like, traditional background where like, sex is a very sacred thing. To me, it has been interesting to like, observe a world where it's not, you know, so sacred to so many other people. Like, it can be very casual in a lot of ways to a lot of people. So that's been interesting to observe. And you know, I. Having said that though, I am. I think it's been really cool to see goodness in people outside of the church too though, and like to find good men and good people that like, are loving and kind and good and have their own beliefs and like, their own passions that are completely outside of the teachings of the gospel. And that was again, something that I think I was a little bit afraid of before, was like, I needed to be within this confine to feel safe and to be okay. And then now to redefine that relationship and realize, oh, no, there are good men everywhere. There's good men all over the world. There's good men in the church and there's good men out of the church,
John Dehlin [01:29:59] and there's creeps in the church and
Kelsey Edwards [01:30:00] there's creeps in the church and there's creeps out of the church. Like, yeah, it's like, it is, you know, it's like you don't have like, the market on like, goodness or badness. Like, it's just, it's just people. And so, yeah, being able to find that love and, and fall in love with somebody that was like, not a member of the church is like, very, very interesting and not something that I ever saw myself doing, you know, Certainly increases the.
John Dehlin [01:30:22] The dating pool.
Kelsey Edwards [01:30:23] Yeah. Yep, it does. You know, I would say dating in LA is like a bit of a different experience because people are saying so career focused. You know, out here in Utah, like, there is still kind of like a more of a focus on like family and marriage and, you know, all of these things, even outside of the church. But, but in la, it's such a, it's such a career focused place that it's like, I don't want to say it's harder to find a partner, but it seems like it's harder to find a partner. But that might just be my own story. But I think that, you know, a lot of people are focused on doing what they're doing and they don't necessarily make the time for a relationship. So that, that has been interesting to, to juggle, but I'm also not worried about it. Like, I'm like, I'm doing my own stuff. Like, I'm working on my own career, so it's okay.
John Dehlin [01:31:09] I remember when I, I, you know, my audience knows that I, that I knew Renee Zoaker in high school. I remember after my mission when I'm at byu, I reconnect with her and I call her. And this is when she was not known by anybody and she had just started trying to act in Austin. And I remember asking her what she wanted to do with her life. And she's like, I want to be an actress. I'm like, what? Come on, get out of here. You know, and she's like, I, you know, I just can't imagine anyone, you know, spending their life doing something they don't want to do. And that's what I want to do. So I'm going to go do it. I'll ask you the same question. Maybe you'll have good karma rub off. But, like, what are your career dreams now? Like, paint your wildest dreams coming true because you do singing, you do songwriting, you do acting, you do social media stuff. Do you have in your mind kind of a vision board or dreams of your career pinnacle if it works out?
Kelsey Edwards [01:32:08] Yeah, absolutely. And I like, I live with the belief, like when it works out, like, that's my, that's my manifestation. Like, like language coming through. But you know, one of the things we talk about in manifestation is like living as, as though it's already happening. So that's, that's why I speak that way. But, but yeah, my, my vision is, you know, I, I see like a really, a really thriving acting career. And I have several, like, TV shows that I want to be a part of and I want to be in many, you know, films. TV show and films are like my biggest passions. You know, I've done a lot of commercial work too, but like, I really find beauty and like storytelling through TV and through Film. So I really. I want to win an Emmy. I want to win an Oscar. I have all these goals, and I also just, like, with my. With my big sis career, I want to be able to inspire girls around the world, you know, and that's kind of where, like, the mesh of, like, my things come together. Is that part of my vision, part of my brand with my audience? And these girls that I talk to is hoping to inspire them that they can follow their dreams and that they can, you know, whatever you want to do, if you want to be an actress, you can be it. If you want to be a Olympic, you know, gymnast, you can be it. And encouraging them to have the, like, courage to create their own dreams, create their own life, and kind of like, this path that I feel like I'm on now that I wish I had figured out sooner, like, giving them the encouragement to do that. And so hopefully, by seeing me follow my dreams and pursue my, you know, passions in acting and music and all these things, I'm able to be, like, a positive example for them and a positive role model in encouraging them to do that for themselves while also recognizing, you know, some of the bumps that come along the way and how we manage anxiety and how we manage, you know, body image issues, how we manage eating disorders and how we deal with things like depression or, you know, broken families or, like, you know, all of these things that creating your dream life is not always glamorous and easy. And in order to be able to become the best version of yourself, the most, like, healed and authentic version of yourself you have, you will probably bump up against things along the way and what that journey looks like to heal through those things and move through those things. So, yeah, I would say that's kind of like the. The tie in of, like, my entertainment stuff and my content stuff is like, how can I excite these girls and be the example that I wish I had had when I was that age?
John Dehlin [01:34:31] All right, so not too big. Oscar. Emmy. And world domination as big sis.
Kelsey Edwards [01:34:39] Just those. Just those small things.
John Dehlin [01:34:41] Those three.
Kelsey Edwards [01:34:41] Just a couple. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:34:43] Emmy. Oscar. Okay, wait, what about recording artists? What about a Grammy?
Kelsey Edwards [01:34:47] Yeah, a Grammy would be cool, too. Yes.
John Dehlin [01:34:49] Wait, no, no. Like, either you're the going for it or you're not.
Kelsey Edwards [01:34:53] No, that's so true. Yeah. No, a Grammy, we'll say. I. I just. I.
John Dehlin [01:34:57] What's that called? Do you want it? What. What about the one on the Tony? What about the Tony? What's it called when you get all four?
Kelsey Edwards [01:35:02] I don't know.
John Dehlin [01:35:03] I mean, Oscar Tony, Grammy, Ghost.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:05] There's a name for that.
John Dehlin [01:35:06] Yeah, there's an acronym for getting all four.
Kelsey Edwards [01:35:08] Oh. Anyway, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I didn't say Grammy because, like, I feel like if I. I'm leading out with, like, my film and acting career, and music is also, like, a very large passion of mine.
John Dehlin [01:35:19] Your song's great.
Kelsey Edwards [01:35:20] Thank you. Thank you. But, yeah, I just.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:24] I love.
Kelsey Edwards [01:35:25] I love them all. And I just think that, like, I'm. I probably would consider myself, like, an actor first and a musician, like, second, you know, but we forgot dancing and dancing. But, I mean, dancing is, like, at this point, dancing is just, like a hobby. Like, I don't do it competitively or professionally anymore.
John Dehlin [01:35:41] And yet you're gonna dance with Benji Schwimmer this month.
Kelsey Edwards [01:35:43] I don't know. I mean, we'll see what happens. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it'll be fun. I just. I'm excited to dance again. That's for sure.
John Dehlin [01:35:52] Well, I. You know, some of my viewers and listeners are going to notice that occasionally I interview. You know, I've interviewed Minnie Gledhill, Angela Sof, Like, Sarah Sample, Wayne Sermon from Imagine Dragons. I do. I do like to feature entertainers on Mormon stories. Part of it is because they're great interviews. Part of it is because I really respect artists. I think there's an intellectual nature and a disciplined nature to art that I really respect. But also, I just can't wait for those who I interview to really hit it. Hit it big.
Kelsey Edwards [01:36:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:36:31] And it'll be fun to say, hey, I knew them when and I interviewed them when. So it's all that.
Kelsey Edwards [01:36:36] That's awesome. No, I love that, too. And. And, like, art and, you know, I think art is such a powerful medium. Like, so much of the world is influenced by art and storytelling and media and, like, you know, I think that's just. It's. It's amazing that you're giving a platform like this to, you know, two artists to be able to share their art and their creativity, too, because I just think that's beautiful. I think art is beautiful in and of itself.
John Dehlin [01:36:59] Can't forget. Is Ellie. Ellie Duke?
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:37:02] Shout out to her as well. All right, well, this has been wonderful. Are there any final messages you want to share? You know, things. Stories that you plan on telling or messages you want to convey as we kind of wrap up today? Yeah, final messages.
Kelsey Edwards [01:37:22] Yeah, final messages. I think, like, the biggest. The biggest thing that I want to say and the biggest thing I've. I'VE tried to convey this whole time is just like, the. The ability to, like, still love across. Across viewpoints and the ability to have respect for different viewpoints. And I. I feel so strongly about that because I. I ask people, like, I try to respect their beliefs, you know, I try to respect everyone else's beliefs, and then I all. I just ask for that same respect, you know, in. In return. That means a lot to me, and I. Yeah, I think it's possible. I. I know that this is like a maybe somewhat controversial opinion because there is such a polarization on both sides, but I think it's possible to still hold love for people that have left the church. I think it's still possible to hold love for people that are in the church. And, you know, we may not see eye to eye on a lot of things, but I think that, like, I still respect you as a. As a person, and I respect your rights to, like, your beliefs, and I hope for the same in return. And, you know, I guess. I guess a request for compassion, you know, and, like, compassion on both sides and. And love just so that we can stop fighting and not, like, tear people down and, you know, just love each other. That's all. That sounds so mushy, but I just. I don't know. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of that lately, and it's been. It's been hard. And I think that I would just like to, you know, say, like, I think we can all. We can all do better just loving each other.
John Dehlin [01:39:09] Yeah. It's so simple and so profound. Love is all you need. Beatles.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:13] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:39:14] Right. Classic.
John Dehlin [01:39:16] But I think you also have a message of. Of hope. Right? You can. If. If you. If. If your. Whatever your paths have been, if they're not working for you, if you're feeling suffocated, if you're feeling like you're in a box, there's hope.
Kelsey Edwards [01:39:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:39:32] I think there's that message here.
Kelsey Edwards [01:39:34] There is. I mean, that's what I. That's what I'm hoping for, too. Is that like. Yeah. Again, this is a hard pill for some people to swallow, but there are other ways of finding joy. There are other ways of being happiness, of having fullness in your life, that if you are feeling stuck or you're feeling trapped or you're feeling like an old part of you that you don't identify with anymore. Like, I think that was the biggest thing for me is just like, my internal view of myself in the world, and everything shifted so much that I just wasn't fitting anymore. And if you are feeling that way, if you're feeling like a puzzle piece that's just not fitting in the puzzle anymore or like, you know, you were molded into a box that you're not fitting into anymore, like, it's. It's okay. And there are other boxes you'll fit into if you want to. There are other puzzle. Puzzle pieces that, you know, you'll fit into that puzzle. Like, it's. It's okay to let go, and it's okay to take risks and. And if you just decide along the way that it's not for you, that's okay. If you decide along the way that it is for you, that's okay. It's all right to take these risks and to test the waters and to, like, find. Find where you're happiest, find your joy.
John Dehlin [01:40:43] So love it.
Kelsey Edwards [01:40:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:40:45] All right, Margi, final words.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:48] Oh, just that it has been a joy to. To sit and to be with you today. So thank you so much for sharing your. Your story with all of us.
Kelsey Edwards [01:40:57] Thank you. I feel the same. So, so lovely to connect with both of you. You're such, like, beautiful souls. So thank you for having me and sharing this time and space with me. Thank you.
John Dehlin [01:41:07] Thanks, Kelsey. All right, so people want to follow you. Tell them all the ways they can follow you.
Kelsey Edwards [01:41:12] Yeah, I mean, it's pretty much Kelsey Marie Edwards on Tick Tock and Instagram
John Dehlin [01:41:16] K E L S E Y. Kelsey
Kelsey Edwards [01:41:18] Marie Edwards on Instagram and Tick tock and then YouTube is just Kelsey Edwards.
John Dehlin [01:41:24] But yeah, what about this weird platform for following your big sis thing that you told me about before?
Kelsey Edwards [01:41:32] Oh, yeah. Well, I'm. I'm launching an online course. It's called Squad Goals. And it's. It's about helping teen girls find friends, make friends, and then let go of friends that are not serving them anymore. It's like the first in a few digital products. So good.
John Dehlin [01:41:45] So important platform. Is that on?
Kelsey Edwards [01:41:47] Thank you. It'll be. It'll be on. It's hosted on, like, Kajabi. It's like a course platform, but they can find it through my social channel. So I'll be promoting it on Instagram, Tik Tok, YouTube. It'll probably be on some ads too, eventually. But. But yeah, for more information about that, it's. It's going live in about a week, so you can find that on my social media. And the website itself is. It's what. It's Kelsey Edwards co. That's where it's hosted at right now. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:42:15] But When I said use the word weird, I meant for the social media platform you told me about to connect with your audience that I had never heard of before.
Kelsey Edwards [01:42:23] Oh, bigo, is that we're talking about the live streaming app? Yeah, no, it's just. It's just like an extra thing I. I do, but it's not like, I think central. Yeah, it's not central. It's just a little. It's a little bonus. But Instagram, TikTok, you know, okay, those are like the main places. YouTube and then this, you know, my online. My online course that's coming out, that if you have a teen daughter that is, like, looking for extra guidance in her life, like, that's. That's what I. That's who I aim to serve. It's like teen girls and helping them become the best version of themselves. So feel free to check it out
John Dehlin [01:42:56] and check out Life in a Box on Spotify, Apple, itunes, or whatever it's called Now. And on YouTube, wherever else you get
Kelsey Edwards [01:43:04] your music, all the things, it's everywhere.
John Dehlin [01:43:07] Yeah.
Kelsey Edwards [01:43:07] Anywhere you go.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:08] You did it. You shared this story.
Kelsey Edwards [01:43:11] Thank you. Thank you for the space to do so.
John Dehlin [01:43:15] All right, Kelsey Edwards, thanks so much for joining us on Warm Stories and viewers and listeners. I should say this at the beginning of every episode, please remind me, Please subscribe to YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, subscribe. We have a goal to break the hundred thousand subscriber mark. Our videos are getting way over that, so we just need to ask people. I have a consultant now, and he's teaching me to ask people to do what we need them to do. We appreciate donations. We live on your donations. Please sign up to donate at MormonStories gmail.com. no, sorry. @mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. But if you are not able to be a donor, you will. You will really help us by subscribing and becoming a subscriber on YouTube, on Facebook, on TikTok, and on Instagram. All of that helps. It helps with the algorithms. It helps you stay informed for, you know, the new episodes and the new content that we release, and it helps spread the word to other people. So for all those reasons, please become a subscriber. And if you feel like you have it in your abilities to become a monthly donor to the Open Stories foundation, all your donations are tax deductible. In the US we're transparent in our finances, and every dollar you give, we spend to try and build up an infrastructure, a platform of staff and. And support to help people like you. So thanks for your support. Join us again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And most importantly, be good to each other and be kind to each other and love each other. And I say these things in the name of Kelsey Edwards.
Kelsey Edwards [01:44:54] Oh, gosh.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:54] Brilliant.
Kelsey Edwards [01:44:55] Amen.
John Dehlin [01:44:56] Does that work?
Kelsey Edwards [01:44:57] That's funny.
John Dehlin [01:44:57] Thanks, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Main image provided by Kelsey Edwards; Background image of the Salt Lake Temple by Francisco Kjolseth
Content Warning: Disordered Eating, Drug Addiction
National Eating Disorder Helpline: 1-800-931-2237
National Eating Disorders Association Website
Kelsey Edwards has a unique upbringing as a child actor who was homeschooled by her Mormon parents. Driven by a desire to do what’s right and excel, Kelsey develops a perfectionism that goes beyond religious adherence into body image and leads to disordered eating. Kelsey is able to recover with help from her parents, only to be thrown into another family crisis as her father succumbs to an opiate addiction after chronic back pain and leaves both the Church and the family. As many children do, Kelsey feels she shares blame for the destruction of her family and re-commits to the LDS religion for strength and comfort.
When her family moves to Provo, Utah, Mormon purity culture has costs for Kelsey’s self-esteem and body image as she continues pursuing performance at high school and BYU. Kelsey’s first doubts come as she serves a mission in Birmingham Alabama and grapples with the spirituality and fulfillment members of other faiths feel. Kelsey realizes belief in “eternal families” is far from unique to Mormonism but what IS unique about the Mormon version is the dark element that it’s predicated on a God deliberately separating families first.
Social Media:
- New Song: Life in a Box
- Insta: @kelseymarieedwards
- TikTok: @kelseymarieedwards
- Facebook Page | Kelsey Edwards
- YouTube: @kelseyedwards
- Internet Big Sis | Squad Goals (For teen girls about making/keeping good friends)
- Kelsey Edwards on IMDB
1705: “Perfect” Mormon leaves the LDS Church – Kelsey Edwards Pt. 2
Thumbnail Credits: Main image provided by Kelsey Edwards; Background image of the Salt Lake Temple from shutterstock.com
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Show Notes:
Kelsey’s Appearances/Projects
Opiate Addiction
- Empire of Pain | Patrick Radden Keefe
- The Crime of the Century (TV Miniseries on HBO)
- Dope Sick (TV Miniseries on Hulu)
- The Pharmacist (Netflix)
Misc
One Response
Why leave the church instead of the “Mormon purity culture”? The doctrine of the church holds that we are all imperfect sinners and must repent often, relying on the atonement of the Savior to gain forgiveness as we try to improve and be more like Him. Rejecting true principles, not the so-called purity culture, does not lead to happiness.