Episode Transcript
Co-host: Nemo · Guest: Christina
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introduction to the Episode
Nemo [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, Nemo the Mormon. And if you're wondering where John Dollyn is today, it's about the Europeans. If you ever see this face on its own, you will be in for a European special. We are talking to Christina today who's from the Netherlands and why don't we bring her on? Christina Goedendag or Gov.
Christina [00:00:27] Hi. Hello Goedendag.
Nemo [00:00:29] How are you?
Christina [00:00:31] Yeah, I'm good, yeah, smashing.
Nemo [00:00:33] It's great to have you here. So for those watching, this is a ongoing thing that we'll be doing from now on. I'm going to be trying to get voices from Europe and basically anywhere that isn't kind of the Anglosphere in America onto Mormon Stories podcast to share experiences of members outside side of that kind of sphere of influence and that sort of geographic area. So today I'm very excited because Netherlands is somewhere that's quite close to my heart and so I'm always excited to talk about it. But Christina, why don't you introduce yourself? Say hello.
Meet Christina: Life as a Young Dutch Mormon
Christina [00:01:08] Hi. Well, I'm Christina. As you've heard, I'm from the Netherlands. I'm currently 18 years old, a former Mormon. I stepped out of the church about a year ago. I am from a family that was, that's very devout in the church still. Second generation on my dad's side, first, third generation on my dad's side, second generation on my mom's side. And yeah, I'm currently in university studying musicology. I'm very interested in music. And yeah, today I'll be telling my story about my faith crisis and all of all of that jazz. So.
Nemo [00:01:48] And so both your parents Dutch? They're both from Netherlands.
Christina [00:01:52] Oh, well, my, my dad is actually, my dad is Dutch but my mom is Spanish. So I am half Dutch, half Spanish.
Nemo [00:01:59] Okay, so this is like extra European.
Christina [00:02:02] Extra European.
Nemo [00:02:04] This is like 2 servings in one go. Okay. So they're, they're multi generational. Is that quite common in the Netherlands for members of the church?
Christina [00:02:13] Well, I think it really started going in the 50s as far as I know, like the, the Dutch church. So my grandma was actually one of the first to get converted. Okay. So it doesn't go farther back than third generation, but like the biggest, like most developed families are third generation. Yeah.
Nemo [00:02:37] And do you have these kind of big families in Netherlands of that everyone kind of knows?
Christina [00:02:42] Yeah, yeah, there's one pretty much in every ward and they're, they make up like one third of the entire ward at least. Yeah. It's hard to keep up with.
Nemo [00:02:51] And are you connected to any of those or are you a bit of a.
Christina [00:02:57] Pretty, Pretty much long gone. Yeah.
Nemo [00:02:58] Okay. Right, so who are the big families in your, in your neck of the woods?
Christina [00:03:03] Oh God, I don't even. I remember the family d. Other names I, I barely remember. But you, you must have known some, right?
Nemo [00:03:14] Yeah, Vanderput is a name that comes to mind for me.
Christina [00:03:17] I think they're, I've heard of them,
Nemo [00:03:20] they're a big family. But it's that kind of church experience, I suppose. Because how big is the church in the Netherlands?
Christina [00:03:27] Oh God, I don't know how many members it was. I think it might have been like 9,000, like active members on the rolls, but then it must be half of that at least.
Nemo [00:03:38] And so how many stakes, wards, that sort of thing?
Christina [00:03:42] Well, the stakes, I think there's four. Four stakes in the Netherlands. One of them is shared with Belgium within the north of Belgium. And there's I think five, five or six wards per stake, approximately. Yeah, yeah.
Nemo [00:04:02] So not massive. And, and you have a temple obviously in the Netherlands, in the Hague.
Christina [00:04:07] Yes. Yeah.
Nemo [00:04:09] But then you also have, you know, a temple that's going to be on your doorstep in Belgium. In Brussels.
Christina [00:04:15] Yeah, in Brussels.
Nemo [00:04:17] Can you see the need for that or no?
Christina [00:04:21] I don't know. I don't see the need for that because I've heard lots of people talk about how the Hague temple is almost like empty. Not a lot of people are going there. Although there's like a bunch, there's a bunch of Belgians and even French people. Oh, oh, John is here. Is he not supposed to be?
Nemo [00:04:42] Well, there was a big side saying ignore me, so I think we'll kick him out for now. He's just coming in to check on me, I'm sure. So yeah, you were saying that the Hague temple is quite empty. My experience when I was there personally is, is, yeah, it was quite empty. It was quite.
Christina [00:04:58] It's very small. Yeah, there's a lot of French people that go there too.
Nemo [00:05:05] The French people go there like just
Christina [00:05:07] to visit, I think.
Nemo [00:05:08] Okay, yeah.
Christina [00:05:09] I don't know.
Nemo [00:05:10] Oh, that's crazy. That's really cool. That's really cool. I know that it's not very far from the Hague to Belgium. Just for geography, for those viewers outside of Europe, how far approximately would you say?
Christina [00:05:23] I think it's like about a three hour car ride from the Hague to Brussels. Approximately. Yeah.
Nemo [00:05:31] Okay, so to put that in context, I suppose in Britain we'll drive three Hours to a temple a couple of times. There are temples in other parts of Europe where people are driving really far. So you know, it's never been a situation where there's one on every corner. But equally it's not that far really to warrant another one in Belgium. But enough chattering about that, we'll get onto that later. Christina, I'm really excited to find out where your Mormon story begins. So why don't you start us from the beginning?
Christina's Early Childhood in the Church
Christina [00:06:03] Oh, that's a very broad question. Where it begins. I guess it begins in the pre existence, doctrinally speaking. I. Yeah, I don't know. Well, apparently I chose my parents in the pre existence and that's why I have them now. I'm generally satisfied. I don't know what else to say.
Nemo [00:06:28] Your parents, any siblings, that sort of thing? Just.
Christina [00:06:31] Oh yeah, I have four siblings. I'm the oldest. Two sisters, two brothers. They're all very nice kids most of the time. Yeah. No.
Nemo [00:06:44] Did the Netherlands ever take on that whole like. So for example, my auntie had 12 kids even though she's British. Right. So this whole idea of having big families, which is a very Mormon thing, did that take off in the Netherlands as well?
Christina [00:06:55] Yeah, well, not as much as in America, but there's. I know a lot of like, I think five kid families about that. Yeah.
Nemo [00:07:06] And is that quite common for the Netherlands or anyway. Or is it generally smaller?
Christina [00:07:11] No, no, generally it's a lot smaller. I think one or two kids. Yeah.
Nemo [00:07:15] Okay. Okay. So that's quite standard then. So. Okay, well then you were born, you chose your parents. In a pre existence, we're all happy and then obviously you get taken to church, you get blessed, given a name and then you end up in primary. What's primary like in the Netherlands?
Christina [00:07:30] Primary is. Well, mostly it's just fun, chaotic. I liked it for the songs. I liked music when I was young. I still like music, of course. Yeah. Other than that, primary wasn't very big. There weren't a lot of young kids in the war that I was in at the time and when I was like before, before my baptism. I don't really remember a lot from that time of course, but I. I generally liked it. Also didn't feel like I had a choice in. In going or not. So. Yeah, yeah.
Nemo [00:08:09] So it was very strict for you. Like you had to go to church?
Christina [00:08:14] Yeah, yeah, no, we had to go every Sunday.
Nemo [00:08:16] Yeah, every Sunday, Yeah. That's pretty standard. And then because it's always interesting to find out how it's not. It's interesting to find out how the church is the same because we have very sort of homogenized church.
Christina [00:08:30] Yeah, it's very standardized, but also how
Nemo [00:08:32] it can fluctuate and differ country to country, whether, you know, you get this Dutch kind of influence, whether there's any sort of extra festivals that you celebrate as a church community that are particularly Dutch. Is there anything like that going on?
Christina [00:08:49] Not, not that I know of. Honestly. I think most of our traditions are just American, honestly. Okay. Yeah.
Nemo [00:08:57] Right. So it's all just kind of brought in, shipped in from the States.
Christina [00:09:00] Yeah.
Baptism and Primary Years
Nemo [00:09:01] Okay, so your baptism, tell me a little bit about, about that.
Christina [00:09:06] Well, my baptism, the first thing that I remember is that I had to wait to get baptized for a few months. Like I had to get baptized after my birthday because my aunt wasn't available before that. So I felt that it was really unfair to have to wait, I guess for some reason, because other kids didn't have to.
Christina [00:09:28] But before I had my baptism, a baptism, my dad set me down and gave me this PowerPoint presentation about what it means to get baptized and the covenants that I'd be making and just really explaining how it all works and the Holy Ghost and all of that.
Christina [00:09:50] And yeah, I remember just sitting there and watching him and him asking me, like, do you understand? And I'm just saying, like, yes. Even though I didn't understand, like half of the things that he was saying because I was eight, I didn't know the responsibility and, you know, what it really meant. Despite his, you know, his intentions and his explanations, I think he really cared about doing it with my consent.
Nemo [00:10:17] Right.
Christina [00:10:18] Which I, I really appreciate in retrospect, that he was trying to give me the choice and to educate me about the decision, but realistically, an 8 year old can't make that decision informed.
Nemo [00:10:35] Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about informed consent. Right. And so what do you, looking back retrospectively, what do you think your level of consent was? Roughly, like, how much do you really think you understood?
Christina [00:10:49] Well, like I said, about. About half. I think I understood that it was probably good, good for me. Everyone else did the same thing. It's a logical next step in your, you know, your growth as a Mormon child. And I thought, well, I, I might not understand it now, but maybe, like, I'll understand it later and I'll appreciate having, you know, stuff like that.
Nemo [00:11:14] Okay, and so your dad baptized you, I assume?
Christina [00:11:17] Yes, he did.
Nemo [00:11:18] Yeah. And what, okay, so what songs did you have at your baptism, do you remember?
Christina [00:11:22] I am a child of God, of Course, yeah. Other than that, I don't remember. But still to this day, I hate that song with a passion.
Nemo [00:11:31] Okay.
Christina [00:11:33] Yeah.
Nemo [00:11:34] Okay. That's fair enough. That's fair enough. I suppose that that has different means for different people, especially as they start to leave the church. That song.
Christina [00:11:40] I know, it's not. It's not just the content of it. It's just. I find the melody just grating. I don't know. It's more also on a musical level that I don't like.
Nemo [00:11:51] Yeah. I mean, we could get into, you know, the issues with Follow the Prophet and that kind of minor chord that just jars horrifically and kind of what that does to kids. But the music does stick with you, and it's interesting that it plays such a large part of our primary experience generally as members of the church. Is this music that we're kind of surrounded by?
Christina [00:12:13] Yeah, definitely.
Nemo [00:12:15] Okay, so any other memories of your baptism? Do you have any kind of memories of the day itself getting baptized?
Christina [00:12:22] Well, I remember being really nervous, probably. I remember, like, the act of getting baptized. I had to get baptized three times because my. My dress kept, like, going up. And that's, you know, that's not appropriate. Not allowed. So, I mean, I thought it was nice because, you know, warm water. It's nice to be in warm water. And that's all it really meant to me is the nice feeling of being in warm water. And I expected, you know, with all the hype around it and the fuss about it, I expected there to be some more, like, spiritual, like, awakening kind of feeling. But it. I didn't really feel any different afterwards. And I think that's kind of where I started to feel like, oh, maybe there's something wrong with me.
Nemo [00:13:11] Right. So you kind of internalize that, as this hasn't done what I thought it would do or I expect it to do. So maybe that's me rather than the ordinance itself. Okay, that's interesting. And I think that tracks generally with how we're taught to view a lot of things, that the fault will then come with us if it isn't doing what we think it should. I want to ask you about how you interacted with your kind of school friends and those around you who weren't members of the church around your baptism, because a lot of people right in the States and workplaces where there's loads of Mormons, it's just normal. It's like, oh, yeah, that so and so is getting baptized. So and so it's getting baptized. It's like a quinceanera or anything else. Right. In the Netherlands. What was that like?
Christina [00:13:55] Well, in my case, I didn't really have any friends. I was bullied a lot when I was. When I was a kid. Not specifically because of my religion. They didn't know that I was religious.
Nemo [00:14:06] Okay.
Christina [00:14:07] But, you know, I think I just seemed a bit stuck up to them. I don't. I don't really know what they were thinking. They just didn't like me. But there was this one boy that was kind of the exception, and he. He did like me, even though he didn't, you know, interact with me a lot because other people would kind of judge him for that, but he kind of became like a secret boyfriend. So when I was right around 8, we didn't really talk a lot. But then I invited him to my baptism. Sadly, he couldn't come, but he gave me a stuffed animal as a consolation.
Nemo [00:14:41] Right.
Christina [00:14:42] So that's. That's kind of what happened.
Nemo [00:14:45] That's cute.
Christina [00:14:46] Yeah, I suppose.
Nemo [00:14:48] But it's interesting you say secret. Why? I mean, the answer is obvious, I suppose, but why do you feel the need to keep that sort of friendship or relationship, whatever, secret?
Christina [00:14:56] Oh, no. Well, my. My. My parents did know. They thought it was cute because it's not serious. You know, it's. You know, we weren't kissing or anything. We barely talked to each other. We mostly avoided each other, actually, because it was. I don't know. It's just weird when you're eight. It was secret for secret for my classmates until up to a point that they realized and. Yeah, okay, right.
Nemo [00:15:23] But he wasn't a member, and so he. No, he seemed pretty chill with the whole baptism thing.
Christina [00:15:29] Yeah, well, I don't know what he thought about it, but he thought so. Yeah. That was nice.
Nemo [00:15:36] That was very cute. So once you get baptized, how did you start to feel in primary then? Did things change? Did you feel like, all right, I'm part of this group now, or, like you said, two different.
Christina [00:15:48] So, no, no, you just change classes. You're with the older kids. I did appreciate that because I always felt like primary was a bit immature, especially when I got around the age of, like, 10 and 11. But I don't remember a lot about the classes. They were mostly just the same and just very simple. But it's fun to hang out with, you know, peers your age and have fun with them. Other than that, I don't remember being a lot special.
Nemo [00:16:21] So you're one of those kids that was just ready to move up, right?
Christina [00:16:24] Yes.
Nemo [00:16:26] Yeah. Ready. You're like, I just need to. I just need to get to youth. But you see, did you feel any pressure at that point to kind of live up to the fact that you are now baptized and, and because obviously now everything you do, you've got to repent of. Right.
Christina [00:16:38] So, yeah.
Nemo [00:16:40] How did you start to come to terms with that sort of feeling?
Christina [00:16:44] Well, I think I remember my parents really hammering on the fact that I needed to pray every day and repent of my sins. I think they started just doing that with me before I go to bed, hoping that it would become a habit. But I don't think I really ever got used to doing it other than that I did feel a kind of pressure from more the parents than the church because they're more like the authority figures in my life, especially as the oldest child, to set a good example and be a good member of the church as far as is possible.
Nemo [00:17:20] Yeah. So you've got that oldest child kind of burden as well then.
Christina [00:17:23] Yeah.
Nemo [00:17:23] Your brothers and sisters look up to you, all that sort of stuff.
Christina [00:17:28] Yeah.
Nemo [00:17:28] Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, that's. That's the pressure a 9 year old needs, Right?
Christina [00:17:33] Exactly. Yeah.
Young Women's and Growing Up in a Small Ward
Nemo [00:17:34] Okay. So I suppose unless there's anything else you want to tell me about your primary experience, we can dive into young women's. Because that's when I think things will start to change, I'm sure.
Christina [00:17:44] Yeah. Well, nothing more about primary. But since I was. Since I was so done with it when I was like 11 and I wanted to move up and I was complaining about it a lot. I was even like having tantrums in primary, even though, like, I thought I was so mature and everything, which is kind of like there's a dichotomy. My parents went to talk to the bishop and said that I may. I would maybe have a better time and young women. So they allowed me to move up early. Um, sweet. So, yeah, that's how I got to young women's.
Nemo [00:18:24] So you arrived in young women's early, you skipped ahead. You're feeling great because you're like, finally, I'm where I want to be. And what was it like? What was your initial?
Christina [00:18:33] The class was very small because it was only me and this other young woman. She was 15 or 16 at the time. So we were just in a class together with two leaders. It was just very cozy and it was mostly fun. And yeah, I did. I like the social aspect of it and just having people to talk to and just friends to look out to seeing every Sunday.
Nemo [00:19:02] It seems like you didn't really have any peers your age, by the sounds of it. So what. I mean, how many young women. What were the age sort of gaps?
Christina [00:19:09] Oh, well, it was just me and this other young woman at first. Then there were other younger ones that came in later, of course, but she was 15, I was 11 and 12.
Nemo [00:19:19] Right. And there was no one above that either. So it was literally just the two of you in a tiny little ward. And I mean, how big was the ward, roughly?
Christina [00:19:26] Oh, gosh, I don't remember. I. I don't remember.
Nemo [00:19:32] Yeah, but fairly small by the sounds of it, if you've got, you know, two young women, essentially. So I bet that young woman was grateful to have you come up as company, if I'm honest. She was probably quite grateful to have the company. I think this paints, again, a very different image to those that grew up in wards where three wards meet in the same building and there's just. You're tripping over youth. Right. Your experience. Tell me about how your experience was different because it was just you and her. Like, did you develop a relationship with. With her? You become friends, you get to know her?
Christina [00:20:05] Well, we were very different. She was actually a convert at the time. She was very, very recent comfort, I think. So she was very different from the typical Mormon kind of girl. And there wasn't really anything that we had in common, but except for the church. So that's mostly what we talked about. The activities were fun. We went to the. To the movies, for example. We went to get pizza together, stuff like that. And it was just mostly. Mostly fun. Yeah.
Nemo [00:20:39] So the activities probably were quite fun because it was just the two of you. So they were like, well, let's just take these two to the movies then. Or, you know.
Christina [00:20:45] Yeah, yeah, basically. Also more stereotypical young women's activities, like learning to iron. And so, yeah, I actually burned my hand when we were learning to iron.
Nemo [00:21:01] That's okay, because the church does have liability insurance, I'm sure. So that's fine. Okay, so you did all the stereotypical stuff. What were the young men like in the ward? What were they getting up to?
Christina [00:21:13] Well, by the way, this is only for when I was like 11, 12, 13, because after that I moved and I went to a different ward, but this one, there were three young men that I remember. They were all above the age of 14, 15 or something. They were mostly very chaotic. They didn't really take the church that seriously. So when we were in Sunday school, I was mostly the one asking serious questions and they were mostly fooling around. That was also. There's a place for that. It's fun.
Nemo [00:21:45] Yeah. So playing soccer on Tuesdays or football on Tuesdays and things like that on your youth nights and stuff?
Christina [00:21:53] Yeah, it's our activities, I think. Well, in my latest ward, they were always on Fridays. I think the. The one before that, they were also on Fridays, although I'm not entirely sure.
Nemo [00:22:06] Strange. Okay, so that's always on Tuesdays. So there's a. There's a quirk.
Christina [00:22:09] Yeah, there's a difference.
Nemo [00:22:11] Okay, so you. You then move. Why did you move? What caused that?
Christina [00:22:15] Oh, well, my dad got a job. He's a radiologist, and he didn't really have, like, a steady position at a hospital, so he was mostly, like, moving around the country, which is very impractical. And he found a study. Study position in the south of the Netherlands. So we moved there from around the Rotterdam area.
Nemo [00:22:34] Okay, so you came out of Rotterdam down to the south and then. So what was that like, moving into a new ward and in a hugely. Almost like in a different part of the country. Right. This is not.
Christina [00:22:45] Yeah, not around the corner. No. The move. The move in general was very painful for me because, you know, I was starting to feel happy at my. Yeah. Of my high school. I had friends there, had to leave all that behind. The school that I started going to was also. Was very lonely for me. But the church, as a contrast, kind of served as a safe haven because everyone there kind of has something in common. So. And I immediately kind of hit it off with the young women there, even though we didn't have anything else really in common. But we got along well and I was happy. I was happy to be there, I think.
Nemo [00:23:27] So you're saying. So in this move, when it was kind of turbulent and you weren't happy about moving schools, at least the church was almost like a bit of a constant because you could kind of just slot yourself into there. Is that what you're saying?
Christina [00:23:39] Yeah. No, because as a member of the church, you're always welcome, like, any ward you go to. And I guess that that's a positive about the community of it.
Nemo [00:23:48] Yeah, that is true. Around this time in your youth, what was it like being a member of the church in the Netherlands in terms of, like, at school? Because we've talked about when you were younger at school, and the kids may have thought you were a bit like, high and mighty, because, you know, as Mormons, we do think we're better than the world. But, you know, now as you're getting older, what is it like to be a high schooler in the Netherlands and also a Mormon?
Being Mormon in the Liberal Netherlands
Christina [00:24:16] Well, I, I went through different periods. You know, I don't like, I remember that after I started going to fsy, for example, I was, when I was really like in a devout phase that I would kind of wear it on my sleeve and I would like bring my scriptures to school. And yeah, I was, I was like that and read them there in the corner and yeah, some of my classmates would look at me and think I was weird. But before that and after that, I think I was mostly ashamed of it. I didn't want to mention it unless someone asked me and I knew how people saw it and I know people thought it was weird and I didn't know how to defend it.
Nemo [00:25:01] How do they see it? How do people in the Netherlands see the Mormon Church?
Christina [00:25:06] Well, first of all, they don't know the Mormon Church. Most people don't know them. The Jehovah's Witnesses are more popular here actually. They're, they're bigger as well. Okay. But those who have heard of Mormonism think we're there, think they're a cult.
Nemo [00:25:23] Right.
Christina [00:25:24] Or like just very, you know, fundamentalist Christina, you know, which is like accurate to some extent.
Nemo [00:25:33] Okay, it, it is. I can imagine the Netherlands, the church in the Netherlands not being as culty because you're not in such a close in group. But what were those sort of cult like elements? Since you brought that up, what are the sort of cult like elements of the church you think were pervasive still in the Netherlands? What do you think?
Christina [00:25:54] Well, yeah, well, of course, I think the, the amount of groups think which is pervasive like all throughout the world in the church is that you're not really allowed to think for yourself. You need to keep in the, the boundaries that they set for you and what the leaders tell you is true. And you can't really think outside that or have any different opinions. Well, if you want to keep your temple recommend and other than that, I mean, just in general, actually, strictly going to church every Sunday is, is weird in the Netherlands because we're a very secular country other than that. And everyone, everyone who claims to be, you know, Catholic or Protestant kind of only goes to services around Christmas or Easter. It's not really, it's kind of more like a cultural thing and not really taken that seriously. Yeah, because it's a big difference.
Nemo [00:26:48] My experience with the Netherlands, and I'm sure a lot of people's kind of first thought about the Netherlands is quite a liberal society. Right. People are quite liberal, quite open and so were you ever viewed as very uptight? I guess because of being a Mormon that people are saying, oh, come on, just try this, just do that. Because they're very liberal?
Christina [00:27:08] Well, I don't know. I didn't really have. I didn't really feel a lot of peer pressure outside the church to. For to start drinking or anything. A lot of people in my class did start drinking at a young age, around 14 or 15. And I didn't really go to parties, so I never felt pressured to drink or anything. But I think, I don't know if it was just my personality or if it was the influence that I got from the church that made people feel like I was uptight or anything like that. I'm not entirely sure why people viewed me like that.
Nemo [00:27:43] Okay, well, that's totally cool. All you can do is sell your experience.
Christina [00:27:49] Yeah, exactly.
Nemo [00:27:50] It's just interesting to see how such a liberal society views a very conservative religious group. Okay, so you're moving through youth. You've moved to this new school, this new ward. So what was the new ward like? Was it bigger, smaller?
Christina [00:28:06] From what I remember, I do think it was bigger. And it was more of an international ward. Not officially, but the city that it's located in is very, you know, it's a lot of industry and a lot of people, lot of. What's the word? Expats moved there. So we had people from all over Europe and a lot of Americans. And British people. Well, some British people. So I was kind of more culturally diverse. Also family from Ghana that I remember.
Nemo [00:28:40] So did your dad ease you into this move with any more of his kind of what will be Internet famous PowerPoints? He will be known for those on the Internet.
Christina [00:28:51] No, he didn't give a PowerPoint about this.
Nemo [00:28:53] Okay. Oh, the PowerPoints around that time at all?
Christina [00:28:57] Oh, yeah. Well, when I was, I think around 11, he gave a PowerPoint presentation about puberty and mostly like sexual education. And it was kind of a weird mix of like scientifically accurate things, like just human anatomy and all that. Like, because, you know, he was, he was trained as a doctor, so he thinks scientifically. But on the other side it's of course, you know, but you have to wait till marriage and you know, sex is for having children and it's sacred and it's. It was mixed in with like all the Mormon rhetoric and it, I felt very confused at the time. At the time because of that. Yeah.
Nemo [00:29:43] So you could feel the distance between those ideas then. Okay. And yeah, what was Your reaction? Obviously, we know you landed on the side of still going to church, but what was your kind of. Where did you land on that? How did you reconcile that sort of dissonance?
Christina [00:29:59] How did I reconcile that dissonance? Like, at the time?
Nemo [00:30:02] Yeah, like, at the time. Like, did you shove it on a shelf? Did you, like, go, oh, well, you know, we'll deal with it later? Or did you deal with it?
Christina [00:30:10] Yeah, no, I. I was still young. I didn't really think about it that much. I was. I was just like, well, this is what I. You know, this is what I'm taught. It's most likely true. Yeah. And I just kept living my life. It didn't really impact a lot.
Nemo [00:30:29] Yeah.
Christina [00:30:29] Yeah.
Nemo [00:30:30] Not that it would. Okay, so we're coming through this early time. You've got your dad giving you PowerPoint presentations about puberty. You got, you know, everything coming into this new ward. You're getting used to knowing the new youth and everything. I want to jump on to the. How old were you when the elder Ruckdorf thing happened? Oh, is this around the right time?
Christina [00:30:55] Yes, I was 12, 13.
Nemo [00:30:57] There we go. Perfect.
Christina [00:30:58] No, it was actually before the move, so we've gone a bit too far.
Nemo [00:31:01] Yeah, Tom would be happy. Right, stick to the timeline, people. 12, 13, and you encounter an apostle of the Lord. He's in the Netherlands. What's he doing in the Netherlands? Why is he there?
Meeting Apostle Uchtdorf and Questions About Sexuality
Christina [00:31:13] It was a really big deal. He was giving, like, not a state conference. I don't know what it was called, but basically, I think it was in Zuzer Mir, like the ward close to the. The Hague temple. And it's the biggest. Biggest church building in the entire country, as far as I know. And so lots of Mormons went there, like, from all over the country to hear Uchtor speak. And he was. He and his wife actually were gonna give a talk separately, and then after that, there would be a Q and A session. Yeah, that's what I remember.
Nemo [00:31:52] So I remember. And how is. How is he viewed? Just because we're gonna tease this out for the audience, how is Uchdorf Feud in Netherlands? Because I know here he's like, he's our apostle. Right. Is it similar there?
Christina [00:32:05] Yeah. No. We felt that he was one of us because we're so close to Germany. Of course. He's, like, the only European apostle in the quorum of the 12. And I remember my parents really, really loving him and being excited to hear what he has to say and really taking it seriously and trying to get us to Be excited, but like in a sacred way.
Nemo [00:32:29] Yeah. Notepads and pens at the ready, you know? Mm, yeah, absolutely. Ready to go. Take note of what he has to say. So they put this big conference on. Everyone kind of comes together. So would you say. So you say it's from all over the Netherlands. Did it go slightly out of that as well, like into Belgium a little bit or.
Christina [00:32:46] I, I think it might. I don't remember who was there. I didn't really know anyone from Belgium at that time.
Nemo [00:32:52] But the fact that they can invite an entire country's worth of people to come see an apostle versus like a couple of steaks, that tells you something again about the size of the church in the Netherlands. So, okay, we all get together for this. How was his talk? Do you remember him and Harriet? Do you remember how their talk was about?
Christina [00:33:11] I really don't remember what the talk was about. What I remember was from the Q and A section, one specific question by this woman. I don't remember who she was, but she asked about God's thoughts on same sex relationships and whether gay marriage would be like, viewed as like, would be tolerated by the church at some point.
Nemo [00:33:40] Okay, before we get to Uchtdorf's answer, I want to know what your thoughts and feelings were towards same sex attraction and same sex marriage and all that sort of stuff at that time.
Christina [00:33:49] So, okay, I was, I was 13. I was very conflicted because generally I'd been taught, you know, being gay or expressing those feelings in, you know, in a physical way is, is not good and that God doesn't like that and it's not appropriate, it doesn't lead to, you know, eternal marriage, which is what we should all be striving for.
Christina [00:34:14] Just all the traditional things that you hear. But around the same time, I think about a week before Uchtor came to the country, my best friend Anne Marie, actually, she's watching right now, so shout out to her. So my, my best friend Emery came out as bisexual.
Christina [00:34:35] And when she first told me, I was just. I was kind of in shock, I think I remember. And I was trying to downplay it. Like, are you sure? Like, how did you, how did you figure it out? Aren't you like, too young to know?
Christina [00:34:49] Because I didn't know anything about it. And I think at one point I even told her, like, oh, it's probably just a phase, which I really regret saying. And I'm sorry once again. But yeah, I was just saying those things because that's what I'd heard from my parents, what they'd said about, you know, gay people in our. Not our community or from, like, on TV or stuff like that. And that's what I felt like I should say. But I didn't really know what my own opinion about it was yet, and it was still developing. So when I heard President Uchtorf say that and saying that.
Christina [00:35:30] That it's. It's wrong to. To be a different sexuality and that God won't allow it and all of that, it just. It felt really conflicting because I really cared about my friend, and I didn't think that anything that she was feeling was wrong, because there she is.
Christina [00:35:52] Yeah. I didn't think that anything she was feeling was wrong. Didn't think she was hurting anyone. So why would God think it was bad? And I remember having a few, like, I think, discussions with church friends, and I remember saying to them that this is the first time that I've ever doubted the church, and that's the first time that I disagree on a topic. So that's kind of where my doubts as. As a person started.
Nemo [00:36:24] Okay. Do you feel like him saying that actually almost galvanized your position, made your position firm to. Towards that topic? Like you were. You were a bit unsure before, and then you heard him say that and you kind of reacted and you're like, no, I don't agree.
Christina [00:36:38] Do you feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Like, it stuck out really clearly in my mind, like, no, I don't feel like that is. I don't feel like that's right. I don't feel like that's kind to say. Because, you know, once. Once you know LGBT people more personally, and you realize that they're just normal people and they're not doing anything wrong, you know, and they deserve to be who they are. It's just. It's just really hard to continue believing and what. What you're taught as a Mormon. Do you.
Nemo [00:37:10] Do you feel like beyond you, there was a more general reaction to what Utdorf said, or do you feel like it kind of went a bit unnoticed?
Christina [00:37:19] I don't think. I don't know anyone who had any kind of reaction to it. My church friends that I talked to kind of remained firm in their position. They didn't really change their minds.
Nemo [00:37:34] Did your parents?
Christina [00:37:34] Other than that? I think my parents just said. They just said that they agree and, you know, that God might, like, explain things in the afterlife and that there's a reason for. For all of this, I guess, and just a. Put it on the shelf.
Nemo [00:37:53] Yeah, just defer it to the afterlife.
Christina [00:37:56] Yeah, I think that's what I remember them saying. Yeah.
Nemo [00:38:00] Okay. So it didn't really cause waves. You know, if it were, if it were now, people would have recorded it. It'd be online. We'd all be picking it apart.
Christina [00:38:09] Yeah.
Nemo [00:38:10] I mean, do you know if there is a recording of that? I'm just gonna ask. Get it out there.
Christina [00:38:14] I mean, I do remember. I do remember there being a camera. I don't know if it was just for, like, pictures or for an actual video, but I, I, I don't know. I tried actually looking for the recording of this, but I couldn't find any on YouTube.
Nemo [00:38:29] Well, I'm inviting the, the viewers now and anyone that watches this afterwards to go out and see if you can find that address. What year was that, roughly?
Christina [00:38:38] I was, I was 13. So let's see, like, 2015 or 16.
Nemo [00:38:46] Okay.
Christina [00:38:46] I think.
Nemo [00:38:47] Right. So if anyone can find what Elder ochtorf said in 2015, 16 in the Netherlands, be super. Go check that out. Okay. So you've, you've. He's planted the seed of disagreement with apostles and with being like, I actually disagree with something.
Christina [00:39:04] Yeah. Because, you know, I thought that, you know, I, When I, When I heard the question being asked, I thought, okay, so he's, he's gonna give an answer, probably what I've heard before, but he might give another reason that might convince me. Right. Because if he can't convince me, who can? That. That's what I was really thinking. And after that, you know, I didn't feel like it. Like it was justified in my mind. And so I kind of, I gave up on it. And it was like, no, what I think. No, I think, I think it's okay. And, you know, I'm. I'm allowed to have an opinion. That's kind of what came out of that.
Seminary, Callings, and Deepening Church Involvement
Nemo [00:39:42] Okay, but you still went to church. Obviously, you went, you then moved. Sorry, we jumped ahead. But then you then moved and you got involved in this new ward in the south of the Netherlands. And what was your church experience like there? Moving into the ward? Did you start to get callings? Were you kind of in positions of. Were you getting more actively involved rather than kind of just floating along a bit?
Christina [00:40:03] Yeah, yeah, no, I think I was, I was very active in my classes as well. I was asking lots of questions. Like, some of them were just regular, others were. Might have been a bit more controversial. But yeah, so I was, I was engaged in class and teachers appreciated me.
Christina [00:40:23] Then I did get my first calling. I was called as the ward pianist. When I was 14, I think, and I think it was actually there was another guy who was, I think he was the institute teacher who was also playing piano like every two weeks. I was also doing it every two weeks. So we kind of like fluctuated.
Christina [00:40:49] But for me I was really excited about it at first because, you know, I liked playing the piano and I've been playing the piano since I was 8 or 9 and church songs aren't that difficult to play. So I was like, I can do this.
Christina [00:41:03] But then when I went up there and you know, I practiced a lot when I went up there and started playing in front of my ward of I think maybe 80 people, I'm not sure, but I just felt just stress and anxiety and just lots, lots of pressure.
Christina [00:41:23] And I don't know if that, if that's just an internal thing for me that I just, that I'm not, you know, mentally prepared to perform in front of people. But I just, it didn't make me feel good. And actually after the last song that I played, usually every Sunday, I would burst into tears and go sit back with my parents.
Christina [00:41:46] Yeah. And you know, I, they didn't, they didn't bother asking me whether I wanted to stop with my calling. They just thought, you know, oh, I'll get over it. But I didn't. I think I went on for a few months or almost a year like that and it started playing into other things. Like at. During my piano lessons, I just, I couldn't really bring myself to play or practice as much anymore and I would also start crying for seemingly no reason.
Christina [00:42:20] So I thought through it and I got up the courage to tell my parents that I wanted to quit my calling and quit piano lessons, which they, in first, at the first instance, they didn't accept that. They didn't want me to stop.
Christina [00:42:39] They were very angry and disappointed with me. But after asking once or twice more and just explaining that I just felt really stressed and I couldn't take the pressure of it and it wasn't good on my mental health, they decided to let me, let me quit, which was a relief. But there was a lot of, you know, a lot of hurt between us at that point.
Nemo [00:43:03] Isn't that amazing that all that comes out of your 14 year old child playing the piano or not at church? And yeah, you know, that's not to judge your parents because I'm sure when that calling was extended to you, it was framed very much in the way of Jesus wants you to come play the piano every week. Right. Was it or was it not. I don't want to assume if it wasn't.
Christina [00:43:23] But yeah, I did feel a responsibility to, you know, spiritually feed people because that's what the songs are for. And they are very like, the lyrics are very important, important. And you know, it's, it's part of the whole frame of, you know, the church experience. And so I felt like I was contributing a lot, but I also felt that if I did something wrong or if I played something wrong, that it would ruin the experience and not be as like, holy. So, yeah, I just felt a lot of pressure.
Nemo [00:43:57] Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. I just feel a lot of pressure through that. And so when that pressure was taken off and you then able to go just sit in the pews and just relax and just be a 14 year old at church, what did that do for you?
Christina [00:44:12] Well, at that point I tried to listen to the talks because my parents kind of like once I went to young women's, they started saying like, stop being on your phone, stop drawing or playing or anything. You have to listen to the talks. They're important. You, you'll learn something. Yeah, most of them were just really boring or I didn't understand the point that the person was getting at or. Yeah, it was, it was just not. I was. I'm not the target audience as a 14 year old. So yeah, it was, it didn't really do anything for me. It was just something you had to get through.
Nemo [00:44:48] But you are the target audience of seminary. And at 14 you started. Do you see that segue? That's good. Segue, right? Yeah. Tell me about, tell me about seminary and what that was like in Netherlands, just generally. What is it? Like, where is it? Where is it? How do you get there? How often is it?
Christina [00:45:08] Oh, well, it's, it's at church. We started doing it like my first three years of seminary. We did it once a week on Friday evenings. And like, so first there's an activity, I think, and then after that we have seminary. So it starts at 7, ends at like 10, 10, 30.
Christina [00:45:33] And yeah, seminary. Like we had to do the scripture study by ourselves like every day and then we would discuss on Friday. That was kind of the, the plan. Not every youth had that autonomy to, to learn that all by themselves or, or the parents, to like reinforce them. I did and I, I read my scriptures every day or at least my assignment every week. Yeah, yeah. And it was just really fun actually to get together because we had a nice group at that time. I think there were like five or six young women and around the same amount of young men. Not everyone would show up every week.
Christina [00:46:14] I think it would usually be around 7, 6, 7 youth in seminary and a church on Sunday. And we got along really well and we, we kind of fooled around and it was, it was mostly just a fun time. So I have, I've good, I have good memories of the first two years or three years of seminary.
Nemo [00:46:34] I'm sorry, that was just the youth in your ward, Right? So, yes, you didn't have to expand out of the ward to get that sort of stuff.
Christina [00:46:40] And it was, yeah, it was a church. So most, most of us were driven by our parents. I was actually, I think like a 20 or 30 minute car ride from the church because we lived far away from the city and other people lived in the city. So it was just like a, like a bus ride or a bike ride to them.
Nemo [00:46:59] Ride. Very important. For those that don't know about the Dutch, they love to ride their bicycles everywhere. And it works because they have the infrastructure for it, which is nice. If you ever go to Netherlands, ride a bicycle. So, yeah, I mean, you've got all these kids that will cycle themselves to church or whatever, but you, you got a lift. And that was for the first three years. What happened in your kind of fourth year?
Christina [00:47:23] Oh, do we. Do I have to do all of seminary right now?
Nemo [00:47:26] Okay, we'll come back jumping.
Christina [00:47:27] Do you want to come back to that?
Nemo [00:47:29] That's fine. That's fine. So carry on with seminary. So you were very devout, you were very involved.
Christina [00:47:35] Yeah. At least, like on, on the surface, I guess, you know, I had some doubts throughout the, throughout the years. Like, the LGBT thing was very important to me, even though I was not, you know, my, I was. I'm very straight still and I am cisgender, and so I don't identify as lgbt, but because, you know, I care a lot about them and, you know, my best friend is close to my heart, but because I advocated so much for them, like just casually in church, but a lot at home, I had some conversations with my parents, like arguments and stuff like that. My parents actually at one point thought that I was a lesbian.
Nemo [00:48:15] Right.
Christina [00:48:16] Because of that. Because I care about other people's rights.
Nemo [00:48:19] Yeah. You couldn't possibly advocate for others just for the sake of advocating for others.
Christina [00:48:23] Yeah, no, because.
Nemo [00:48:24] Personal interest.
Christina [00:48:25] Right, yeah. Because if you, for example, if you advocate for animals rights, you must be an animal yourself.
Nemo [00:48:29] Of course.
Christina [00:48:30] That makes sense.
Nemo [00:48:31] Naturally.
Christina [00:48:33] Yeah. I don't know.
Nemo [00:48:34] What were those conversations with your parents? Like, let's dig into that a little bit, if you don't mind.
Christina [00:48:39] I don't remember a lot about the conversations themselves because, you know, they're. They're intense. And you know, especially it was mostly with my dad because my mom is not very confrontational, but my dad is. And he has very firm opinions about things. And yeah, he was. He made me feel kind of guilty for having a different opinion and like, I should just listen to what I'm told because I'll. I'll find out later that it was the right answer. So I should just trust that it is right. Other than that, he didn't. He didn't really give any, like, good arguments. That changed my mind, obviously. But mostly, yeah, they. They made me feel. They made me feel bad, those. Those conversations.
Nemo [00:49:31] Yeah, I can imagine. Imagine.
Christina [00:49:32] And that.
Nemo [00:49:33] That tension between you and your parents then, because I forget how young you are. Apologies. Because I wanted to skip ahead in the seminary. I forget that actually is four years. So, you know, we're getting close to the present day. So let's stay in your kind of mid teens around this opening time seminary. So you're having these discussions with your parents more. And how. How are you finding this kind of point where you're breaking out of orthodoxy? I'd say, you know, the idea that you're challenging your parents on a. On an issue. Did that bleed over into seminary classes? Were you challenging in class as well?
Christina [00:50:10] Not really until my last year. My last year is also when my faith crisis really, like, really started. But before that, I mostly kept it to myself. Yeah.
Nemo [00:50:21] Okay, you kept it to yourself. And were there any other kind of parts of the youth program? We'll get to FSY in a moment because that's going to be coming up around this time. But there are any other parts of the youth program and the kind of. The teachings around youth that you struggled with or anything kind of thoughts on.
Christina [00:50:37] Also around when I was 14, modesty I didn't understand. Like, I was. I was fine with doing it like I was. I'm not very risque in my clothing choices, like, even now. But I really wanted to have a good reason to do things.
Christina [00:50:54] And the specific rules around modesty felt arbitrary. And I didn't understand why those are specifically chosen or there was a reason behind it. So I think at one point we had a Q and A with our bishop. We would have those maybe every like twice a year maybe, and you could just ask any questions that you want.
Christina [00:51:16] So I started asking specifically about modesty. I asked, why do we have to cover Our shoulders. Because I didn't understand, you know, what's. So what's the deal about shoulders? Right. So I asked him that and he said, well, first of all, he said that we have to be modest not.
Christina [00:51:36] Not to be a temptation to the young men. So that was the first reason that he gave. So cool. And I. I didn't feel like that was a valid reason to do that because I thought, you know, the men should be able to control themselves and, you know, it's just a shoulder.
Christina [00:51:50] But the second reason that he gave, when I kept pressing him, I think he said, well, the shoulder is, you know, technically speaking, it's kind of the beginning of the breast. So that's what. Cover it.
Nemo [00:52:03] That's what he said.
Christina [00:52:05] And I was. I was just as flabbergasted as you are right now, but I just accepted it, like, okay. I just had a poker face on, like, sure. I. I think another young woman was also like, what. What just happened?
Nemo [00:52:19] Because this. Was this a public forum? Because I'm imagining like a. Like you're like twice a year bishop interview or something. But this is a public.
Christina [00:52:26] No, no, this was with all the. With all the youth. We got together in a room in a circle, and we're allowed to ask the bishop questions for, I think, half an hour to an hour or something. That it was. I don't know if they were. I don't think they were like, prepared if you had to send them in or anything, because mine was spontaneous as far as I remember. But, yeah, I don't know. That was just our last bishop, because the bishop we had after that didn't really do that, I think.
Nemo [00:53:00] Yeah, it sounds like kind of. That guy. Which is awesome. Like, super cool that he's like, you know what? I'm gonna sit the youth down because youth are important. I'm gonna hear their questions twice a year. Really cool. But then when his answers are. The shoulder is technically the beginning of the breast. I feel like he's clutching a straw. Sorry. Something's come to mind. Tell me about it.
Christina [00:53:23] No, that's just. Yeah. It's just ridiculous to think. To think back to it, you know, that an adult man would say something like that. Yeah. No, so that was a.
Nemo [00:53:33] Kudos to him for, you know, that forum. And I think that. I think it's a great idea.
Christina [00:53:39] It's a good initiative. Yeah.
Nemo [00:53:40] It's certainly a good initiative for the. For the youth to have that chance to come together.
Christina [00:53:45] Yeah.
Nemo [00:53:45] And. And say what they want to say. So any other things you remember from those Q and A's, because it feels like there's a lot of kind of good content that comes out of those.
Christina [00:53:53] That's. That's the main thing I remember. I don't remember any other questions. Other questions were mostly, you know, tame. They weren't really, like, actual doubts that people were having, but, like, maybe like some technicalities about the scriptures or something about stories. Yeah, I don't think it was much special after that.
Nemo [00:54:15] I'm not sure I'm going to get over that for a little while. Sorry, everyone. Okay, so let's talk about fsy, shall we? Because, you know, modesty standards in the church are one thing, but FSY is like another level. Right. So how did you find that jump, that fsy?
FSY Youth Conference: Rules, Modesty, and Testimony Meetings
Christina [00:54:32] Oh, well, it was. It was very, very strict. I don't know. Yeah, well, it's. Yeah, because you can't. You can't enter. There's like a list of haircuts that you. That you can't have, a list of hair colors as well. You can't have bright hair colors. So stuff like that.
Christina [00:54:54] You can't wear short shorts, obviously. You can't show any midriff. If you. If you were wearing short shorts, you couldn't enter, like, the camp at arrival. So we'd have to change before that. Or, for example, if a guy would have long hair, they would have to cut it before entering the camp as well. Just stuff like that. That didn't make any sense because, you know, it's just hair and it's just clothes, and it doesn't really impact the value of, you know, the person you are. It was. It just seemed really silly to me. And, yeah, I did feel that it was ridiculous at that time.
Christina [00:55:29] That's mostly like the second one of. One of the early things that I just disagreed with that I thought were just ridiculous. And we had this young women's stake president that was really strict with the rules, too, mostly for the girls. Because I think we had this.
Christina [00:55:51] I think almost every day at F is why. I don't know. Was it youth conference? I don't know. But you have this, like, talk from the leaders at the fsy, which is usually like an old couple that kind of leads the whole conference and gives a talk every once in a while.
Christina [00:56:11] That's kind of. You have to go in your Sunday attire, and women could only wear skirts and dresses. You couldn't enter the hall that they were doing it in without that. And the women's president was actually forcing girls to wear skirts and dresses, even if they hadn't liked brought any with them. She had brought extra for us, so she forced us to change. Whereas the guys were just allowed to wear jeans and a shirt.
Nemo [00:56:38] No, yeah, that's okay.
Christina [00:56:41] I think that was just her. I don't know if that's official, like FSY or Youth conference, like rules. I think that was just her.
Nemo [00:56:48] I feel like FSY can vary so much depending on who the kind of people are that are running it. But there are some very kind of set standards. I want to ask about fsy, what size it is in Netherlands. Is it just for Netherlands or is it more regional?
Christina [00:57:01] It is, I think the Netherlands and Belgium, at least the part of the stake that is in Belgium. So it is mostly national. It's a big, big conference. I think there was about like a hundred youth in total, but I don't know exactly. Yeah.
Nemo [00:57:23] All right. From my experience, FSY was. And we do it by mission in the UK, so we'd have like 500 youth per mission. And there was usually. Or they put a couple of missions together. So there was usually three FSYs that went on in the summer and there was about 500 a pop. So.
Christina [00:57:42] Yeah, no, that was my experience too. When I went to the one in Madrid, because I went to the one in Spain one summer, it was way bigger and more. Way more luxurious. We were in like a four star hotel or something.
Nemo [00:57:53] Nice.
Christina [00:57:53] It's like, where was it? Very, very pampered. I think in the Netherlands. Well, I think it's either in the south of the Netherlands or somewhere north of Belgium. I'm not sure exactly where it was, but.
Nemo [00:58:07] What sort of building? Like, what was it?
Christina [00:58:09] Oh, it was like. No, it was like two. I think I remember there being two camping houses. So there's. There's one building that was for the girls, one building that was for the boys. They were like bunk beds and stuff like that. Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. There was this whole terrain. There's a little, little forest and a field and all that to do activities in. I think that was. I think that's both FSY and Youth Conference, actually.
Nemo [00:58:38] Right.
Christina [00:58:39] Yeah. Youth Conference is more like on a stake level, but I think I remember us using the same building a few times.
Nemo [00:58:47] So you had. You had young women in new men's camps. Did you have those?
Christina [00:58:52] No, we always did them together. We always did them together.
Nemo [00:58:55] Okay.
Christina [00:58:56] Yeah.
Nemo [00:58:56] Right. And this all sounds very rural anyway, all the conferences going out into fields and stuff. Yeah, that's fascinating because we got stuck in a University. It's not a university in the uk. They stick us in student accommodation.
Christina [00:59:07] Yeah, I mean, that doesn't sound too bad.
Nemo [00:59:10] It's not bad because you got the big lecture halls that we all then go into and all that sort of stuff. Crazy. Okay, so what were your. Any standout experiences for you at fsy? Anything other than, you know, the forced modesty and the dresses?
Christina [00:59:25] Well, another weird rule that was enforced was the hug rule, because there was this thing. I don't know why exactly, but we weren't allowed to hug the opposite sex for longer than about seven seconds. Yeah. So I don't know if the counselors were actually counted when we did that.
Christina [00:59:51] Yeah, but, you know, we weren't. I. I think, you know, the stake in women's president again. Yeah, no, but it was, it was told to everyone. Like, it was very, you know, across the board, like, everyone should, should, shouldn't do this.
Christina [01:00:08] And there was like. I. I think I asked a few people, like, why is this. Why is this the case? You know, this seems very extreme. You know, it's strange. There was this rumor that two years ago, a couple of youth had. Had. Had had sex at the camp, like in the. In the forest, like in secret. And to avoid that, they might have set that rule, but I have no idea. But it's just. Yeah, exactly.
Nemo [01:00:37] You know, get your stopwatches out. They're hugging. You know, I don't get how that stops you sneaking off into the woods at night.
Christina [01:00:45] Yeah, it's just, you know, it was. It was. The only time that it wasn't enforced was during testimony meeting when everyone was emotional and just hugging everyone, you know, other than that. Yeah.
Nemo [01:00:59] Okay. What were those testimony meetings like? Because I think I've got an idea in my head, but I want to hear it from you. What was that like?
Christina [01:01:06] I think my first step is why we were, you know, we were sitting in the field. We were, I think, in a few different groups of 20 kids, just sitting in a circle with like, a few counselors as well. And we just had to sit there until we felt the, like, the inspiration to go and give our testimony.
Christina [01:01:28] And just, we had to go around. And a lot of people started crying, obviously, because it's very emotional. Emotional experience. And we were very sleep deprived as well, so that might have added to why we were so emotional.
Christina [01:01:45] But, yeah, you do feel a lot of pressure at testimony meeting when you're sitting in that circle and you're one of the few ones left that hasn't gone. You feel like you should speak. Even though you don't, you might, you may not feel that you have a strong testimony.
Christina [01:01:59] I felt, I felt the same. I really, I didn't want to speak, but I felt like I had to. I ended up giving my testimony about, you know, that I'm a, I'm by nature a skeptical person, but I'm trying to overcome that. That's what I said in my testimony. That's what I remember.
Nemo [01:02:18] It's interesting you mentioned sleep deprivation. I'm pretty sure it comes up in the bite model depriving people of sleep. Was it intentional to sleep deprivation or was it just because you're young people all in the same rooms and you're just staying up late?
Christina [01:02:32] Well, I don't know. It's just the schedule was very jam packed from morning to night. And then at night you're also encouraged to write in your journal and stuff like that, Scripture study. And so I think we went to bed at around midnight and then we had to wake up again at six or something. But of course some people, six or seven, but some people of course stay up later because they want to talk with the people in the room and it's just a nice social experience. Yeah, that's how we barely got any sleep. I tried to sleep as much as possible. There are other people who actually stayed up until like four in the morning and then getting even less sleep and they, they could barely function. So.
Nemo [01:03:22] Yeah, and John's just said that he put up on the screen. I'll put it up again. John saying it makes him really sad that the American church is exporting body shame to other countries. Oh yeah, because I believe someone else said, we've got someone else. Everyone's chiming in. As an American woman visiting Europe, I was always impressed at how comfortable Europeans are about their bodies. And we talked earlier a bit about liberal society. But is that very much the case in the Netherlands? Everyone's quite comfortable around each other.
Christina [01:03:52] Yeah, I think so. I do. Yeah, I do think I was taught a lot of body shame through the church and through my parents, especially my, my mom because she was very concerned about my weight since I was young and she tried to put me on diets and try to get me to exercise more, stuff like that. And I just never, I never felt good about my body. And I, I actually talked to her a few months ago about that, about that growing up I didn't feel, you know, like comfortable in my body. And you know, she, she kind of taught me a way to like hate or dislike myself and she was like, oh, well, that wasn't my intention at all.
Christina [01:04:34] And I know. I know it wasn't her intention, but that's kind of what ended up happening, which is. Which is not great, but. And it takes a lot. A lot of time to unlearn, but I'm trying to. I'm starting to get over it to some extent.
Nemo [01:04:50] And do you feel like that would have been quite a shared experience by a lot of youth in the Netherlands, or is that particular to your family?
Christina [01:04:57] I am not sure. I think it might be, like. Except for the modesty stuff, which is standard, I think this might just be my. My situation, but I'm not sure.
Nemo [01:05:08] Okay. No, that's fair. That's fair. So you've got these really strict rules that are all being enforced on fsy. Did you ever feel inclined to rebel? Or were you a bit too reserved for that? And instead you kind of just rebel?
Christina [01:05:23] In. In what sense? Like, you're like, go to a party, get drunk,
Nemo [01:05:29] but you're like, you know what? I. I disagree with the rules, so, you know, I'm gonna wear this. And then, you know, you get.
Christina [01:05:38] I think around the beginning of my faith crisis, when I was more like a nuanced believer, I was toying with the idea of coming to church in a suit. But, you know, then I started looking for suits online, and they're very expensive, so I couldn't afford that. So, yeah, rebellion is expensive.
Nemo [01:05:56] That's a takeaway. Okay, but. Okay, but you were still kind of toeing the line. But, you know, it's interesting. You said at the kind of testimony meetings that there's that pressure there because everyone else has gone, that you need to get up and kind of say something, and so do you feel like it was still sincere what you said, even though there was the pressure to get up there or.
Christina [01:06:18] Well, my. My testimony wasn't really like, the. Like, the typical. Like, I know this, I know that. Like, I know the church is true. I know, you know God loves me. Well, I did say. I. I think I did say I know God loves me. Something like that. Most of it was just about me trying to overcome, you know, my natural inclinations to be skeptical and to doubt things and want proof for things, because, of course, that's irrational.
Christina [01:06:43] And. Yeah, it was mostly just about my. My goals as, you know, as a believer. Yeah. Because I was. I was not very secure in my testimony, but I did really want one because I felt like I should have one. And I think, you know, it would be good for me if I did have one because everything else would be much easier to do.
Christina [01:07:06] Right. And there was this one, there was this one talk during fsy. I think these speakers asked them, they asked the whole, whole hall of people because I think all the youth were kind of just where they were together.
Christina [01:07:24] And they asked a few questions and, you know, they said a few statements, three statements. I know the church is true. I believe the church is true, and I hope the church is true. I think. And you had to stand up at the one that applied to you.
Christina [01:07:42] So from what I remember. Yeah, from, from what I remember, half of the, half of the crowd of people, of youths stood up at I know the church is true. The other half stood up at I believe the church is true. And I was the only one to stand up at I hope the church is true, which was a very embarrassing and kind of shameful experience.
Nemo [01:08:07] Right, yeah. What was the reaction?
Christina [01:08:11] Well, I was just standing there alone and the speaker just said, well, you know, we're glad that you're being honest and, you know, you have a lot to work on, but we still love you and appreciate you and, you know, the journey, whatever. I don't know what she said something like that that seemed kind of like passive aggressive, but also trying to be nice. But, like, I honestly think that I was the only one genuinely being honest in that room. Yeah, no, because I remember, like, the ones who stood up and I know the church is true are from the, like, big devout Mormon families. And they were, they're expected to say that. So I, I, I don't think. Or maybe they think they, they know, but they, it's not possible to know anyway. You know, it's epistemologically impossible, but it
Nemo [01:09:02] is, it is the language.
Christina [01:09:04] Yeah, there's a lot of pressure. Yeah, exactly. There's just the language of certainty that's imposed on you. And I didn't really vibe with that.
Nemo [01:09:12] Okay, well, it's super brave. I mean, people are saying in the comments, you know, we've got Maiden saying, wow, very brave. You know, she said, I, I agree, I agree that it takes a lot of bravery to kind of stand out like that. And I think the honesty that, that takes this, the honesty with ourselves often is one of the first steps towards realizing that I don't just have to go along with all this. I can actually be honest with myself and express that outwardly. Do you feel like this was a bit of a moment for you or not really?
Christina [01:09:44] Yeah, yeah, I do. I do think so. One of the counselors, like, after after that talk, I couldn't really participate with the. The activity that went next. That was next, because I didn't really feel well from that experience. So I just went for a walk by myself, and this counselor came after me, and we started kind of having a conversation about what had happened. And she told me that, you know, it's actually very beautiful thing to hope, and hope is just, you know, um, it should be appreciated more. And, you know, your honesty is. And your courage, all of that. So she really made me feel better. And, yeah, she kind of helped me for the rest of. For the rest of conference. I don't remember her name, but I really appreciated that. She made me feel better.
Nemo [01:10:26] Shout out to her. Yeah, but you have almost have to ask yourself in that situation, right? You think, well, if hope's such a beautiful thing, then why am I feeling like I'm being ostracized for being the one that's hopeful?
Christina [01:10:38] Yeah.
Nemo [01:10:39] Than certain, you know, someone here saying, I'm Mormon, but I must admit, I've always taken issue using the words I know belief and actually knowing are not the same thing. And that, yeah, speaks to what we were saying about that language of certainty. That's kind of enforced, as you put it, is enforced on us from an early age. At what point do you feel that you started breaking out of that language of certainty? You know, when you'd bear a testimony at church or whatever. When did you stop saying, yeah, well, I never.
Christina [01:11:05] I never. When I was, you know, I never really bore my testimony at church.
Nemo [01:11:10] Okay.
Christina [01:11:11] I kind of avoided that as much as possible because I was never comfortable with the. I know language. Even if I said it, I never really meant it. I was really uncomfortable with it. And actually, I talked to my dad about that, and he. He agreed with me, which is something that we. We both had in common, is that, you know, certainty is, like, imposed on people and, you know, it shouldn't be because belief is the only thing that's necessary or something. That's what he said. And we should just. I don't remember exactly what he said, but that's something that's. That's a good conversation that I remember. I'm really glad about that because it made me feel better about, you know, who I was at the time.
Nemo [01:12:00] And I think your dad really strikes me as a man of two halves. Yeah, he's got that logical side to him and that. But it's good. I still feel like you got to see that, right? You got to see that play out. You got to see that Someone could hold those two ways of being.
Christina [01:12:16] Yeah, no, at the time, like, he was kind of an example to me because, you know, I still think he's orthodox as a. As a Mormon, but he has some. Some nuances in his belief that, you know, kind of inspired me at the time that I wanted to be like him and to hold those two, like, different concepts together, which is actually cognitive dissonance, but. Yeah, that's. That's interesting.
Nemo [01:12:45] It is, for sure. Okay, so anything else about fsy? Because it sounds very different to experience here in the UK and very different to experience in America.
Christina [01:12:56] Well, I think the. The handbook of activities or something that we got is kind of standard across the board. I think it's just translated. So there's, like, workshops that you have to do about, like, values from. For the strength of the Youth. There's talks about things. There's dances. The dances were pretty fine. But, you know, you were very kind of forced as a girl, you were forced to say yes to any boy who asked you, even though you didn't feel like you wanted to.
Nemo [01:13:31] Teaches healthy boundaries.
Christina [01:13:32] Right. Yeah, I felt, you know, there was this. There was this one guy at the time who I had previously been friends with, but after he expressed feelings for me, I rejected.
Nemo [01:13:45] Right.
Christina [01:13:47] And after that, he would kind of, you know, try to follow me around. He would kind of stalk me on WhatsApp, which is the messaging, you know, app that we. That we used at the time. And, you know, he was just being very unhealthy and trying to keep. Get something from me that I, you know, couldn't or didn't want to give him. I. I would almost describe it as stalker behavior, even though I don't want to go that far. It was just a very difficult situation. I was. I was 14. Yeah. When I went on for a year or two.
Nemo [01:14:21] Okay.
Christina [01:14:23] But at the time, you know, the only time that we saw each other was at FSY or like, a nationwide event because he was from a different stake. And, you know, when he always asked me to dance, and at first, I always felt forced to say yes, so I did. And it was just. It was not the right choice because
Nemo [01:14:43] it perpetuated his kind of feeling that he could just.
Christina [01:14:47] Yeah. Even though I was. Even though I was really trying hard to, you know, set a boundary, which I was not good at at the time, but. Yeah.
Nemo [01:14:56] So having that result.
Christina [01:14:59] Yeah, the. The. The feeling, the pressure or the situation with the situation. Oh, well, it's. It's a long. It's a long story, but I Think it got. It got really bad at one point, and he got angry with me for something that he thought I had done, but he. But I didn't. I don't know how much detail I should give, but he got angry at me and sent me like 200 messages overnight.
Christina [01:15:26] And then I blocked him the. The day after because, I mean, we're still like half kind of friends because we'd been close before. And then it was just like a really awkward thing I didn't know how to deal with after. But then he got really angry with me. Then I blocked him.
Christina [01:15:42] Then he would kind of follow me around at activities, and then I kind of talked about it with my parents. My parents sent an email to his parents, and his parents talked to him and I think sent him to a therapist, which helped him with his behavior.
Christina [01:16:00] And long story short, he contacted me, I think, two, three years later, and he is okay now, and we're on good terms. So. Yeah, that's good resolution. Yeah. Yeah.
Nemo [01:16:17] But it's a lesson, I think, as broad a lesson about setting boundaries amongst youth in the church, and as Jen said in that comment, that it is a widely perpetuated thing that women don't really get to say yes or no to these invitations of social interaction in dancing and things like that. And I don't think that sets up a good standard or a good position for people.
Christina [01:16:41] Yeah. And other than that, at the dances, there was. I didn't. Like, the girls didn't know about this, but apparently there was a competition between the boys of. Who could get the most girls to dance.
Nemo [01:16:52] So that's Mormon boys.
Christina [01:16:56] Yeah. Once I found out about that, I was. I actually was really, really offended because I thought, you know, if a guy asked you out to dance, he must like you or think you know or appreciate you for some reason. But no, you're just like a number to them, you know, That's. That's. That really bothered me.
Nemo [01:17:13] And how often were these dances? How often would we be having.
Christina [01:17:17] Oh, this. We had, like, nationwide dances always. And they were every three months, I think, four times a year.
Nemo [01:17:24] Okay.
Christina [01:17:24] Yeah.
Nemo [01:17:25] So that's people coming from all over the Netherlands to. And would they rotate where they were hosted? I assume.
Christina [01:17:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Nemo [01:17:31] They'd move around. Okay. That's pretty wild. Not gonna lie. Okay, so I want to go to. When you're 15 and you change schools again when you were. So we're getting. We're getting to about 15 now. You've come back from some FSYS, you've been through all that, you've stood out, you've dared to stand alone, as Thomas S. Monson said. And.
Christina [01:17:54] Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. There was one. There was. There was one other thing that I did want to mention about fsy. I'm sorry to break your. No, no, no.
Nemo [01:18:02] Because if I'm moving ahead, then you take me back. That's fine.
Christina [01:18:05] Yeah. So there was this one talk that I met that I remember from one of my. I think my first or second F is why. And it was this. This woman who was a mental health worker, and she gave this talk about this girl that she supposedly knew.
Christina [01:18:22] She talked about this girl. She was just like you. She was your age and her parents weren't really around. She had to care for her siblings and all of that. She was just alone in the world. And. And, you know, one. One day when she was, you know, considering attempting suicide, she prayed to God and for an answer, for a sign that he exists. Right? Because she was not. Not having. Not. Not being. Not having a good life, so to speak.
Christina [01:18:54] So she prayed to God for a sign and he gave her a sign. I don't remember what she said the sign was, but after that, you know, apparently it was a miracle and her life changed and she was never depressed or suicidal again. And, you know, everything just fell into place, you know, and then at the end of the. That talk, she said, like, and that girl was me. Right? So it was apparently by graph, autobiographical story.
Christina [01:19:22] And we were all very inspired by this. It's just such a miraculous story. Like, oh, God can do anything and we can do anything, and we can't be held back by mental health issues or anything like that. And if we just pray, we'll find answers and we'll be like, okay, again. Right? It's like it solves everything.
Christina [01:19:45] And, you know, in retrospect, it's just really messed up to think about because, you know, there must have been a lot of youth at that conference who were. Were struggling with their mental health, right? Because it's quite prominent among youth nowadays. And just to think that they might have felt inspired by that to. To pray to God for a sign just like she did, but didn't get an answer.
Christina [01:20:10] And they might just, you know, that might cause them to give up hope or, you know, give them the false impression that there's a cure all for. For mental health or not to get like, like professional help or anything like that. It just really sends the wrong message, I feel like.
Nemo [01:20:26] No, I agree. I think it takes people in an already vulnerable position and puts them in a position where essentially they're going to a very unreliable source of help. Because, you know, anecdotal experience from many members of the church will tell you that prayers don't always get answered. Right. Unless you try really hard to manufacture whatever situation happened into the prayer you asked for. Right. You can do some postdoc reasoning, and
Christina [01:20:51] then you can kind of tell yourself
Nemo [01:20:53] that that's what you got. But you're taking some people that are already in a very difficult position. Rather than getting them, like, proven medical help that they might need or just professional help, they're like, oh, we'll just pray. And, you know, I got an answer, so you will, too. And I think it's a dangerous game to play with young people.
Christina [01:21:12] Yeah, no, definitely.
Nemo [01:21:14] I think so. Okay, that. I mean, that was worth sharing. Thank you for that. Thanks for pulling me back from trying to run ahead. I'll get better at that. So should we talk about you moving?
Changing Schools and Making Non-Mormon Friends
Christina [01:21:27] Yeah, Well, I didn't move again. I just. I just changed schools. In the same area. Yeah.
Nemo [01:21:31] Yeah. Okay, so tell me a bit about that.
Christina [01:21:35] Well, the reason that I changed schools was because I was really lonely at the. The. The second high school that I'd gone to, and I didn't really have any friends there, and I just. I felt very depressed. So I talked to my parents about changing schools, and they. They let me. They allowed me to. It was in the middle of the school year, so it was just. It was very intense because I was not. I was not feeling good at all. And the. The changes. The change of school really did help, and I didn't feel as, you know, lonely or depressed. I did get some actual friends, people I felt like I could talk to. It was just an improvement, for sure. Yeah.
Nemo [01:22:18] That's good. Okay. So how did it go? Kind of in terms of, you know, making new friends. And. And did it have any kind of implication on your time at church? Did it. Did it improve your time at church? Did it. Were they separate worlds?
Christina [01:22:34] Yeah, they were separate worlds. I didn't really mix with them, mixed them. Although there was. There was this one teacher at the school who was Mormon, who was from my ward.
Nemo [01:22:45] Interesting.
Christina [01:22:45] Yeah, he was a philosophy and history teacher, which, you know, afterwards, in retrospect, it's kind of, you know, ironic slightly, but he was a really nice guy. He was the institute teacher at our ward, and I really. I really admired him. And I really admired, you know, lots of intellectual Mormons, mostly men that I. That I knew in my ward. And I, like, aspired to be like them, kind of.
Nemo [01:23:12] Right.
Christina [01:23:13] Yeah.
Nemo [01:23:15] And do you feel like you got there, or do you feel like you surpassed.
Christina [01:23:20] Well, no, because once I started studying the history of Mormonism, I was kind of swayed a different direction.
Nemo [01:23:26] That's fair enough, but we'll get to that. Okay, so you've got this teacher who's a Mormon. So, I mean, did that keep you in check? Did you feel pressure from that?
Christina [01:23:34] Well, I was actually in one of his classes, so I just saw him at school. Yeah. And people knew him. People liked him. Other than that, no, not really.
Nemo [01:23:45] And was the fact that he was. I mean, did everyone else know he was Mormon? I assume he was openly Mormon.
Christina [01:23:51] Yeah. I. I don't know. I don't know if the students knew. I do know that other teachers knew, because other teachers would kind of talk about it. My other. My history teacher, who knew him well, would actually talk about that sometimes in class, mostly just, you know, saying that it's. It's kind of weird and. No, not just, like, passing comments like that.
Nemo [01:24:16] Okay. And. But that didn't encourage you to kind of be more open about the fact that you were Mormon, too, or did you still keep it very much to yourself?
Christina [01:24:25] Yeah, I did. I did keep it to myself as much as possible. Yeah.
Nemo [01:24:29] Okay. Okay, so tell me more then, about. About this. This new school of yours.
Christina [01:24:35] Well, like I said, I made some friends in class. People were. I felt like they were very welcoming. There was this one friend in my class who I immediately got along with. He was trans. And he introduced me to this whole group of friends, and we kind of started hanging out together in, like, lunch breaks and stuff like that, and it was. It was really fun. And I really felt for the first time that I had kind of, like, fit somewhere. And so through my friend, I got introduced to them, and among them was my future first boyfriend. Yeah. That I also hit it off with. And I think. I think two months after knowing each other, we kind of started dating.
Nemo [01:25:24] Okay. Just before we go to your first boyfriend, I find it really interesting, actually, that the group of friends you started to make involves a member of the LGBT community.
Christina [01:25:33] Yeah.
Nemo [01:25:33] You know, one of the first seeds of your kind of faith crisis, things like that. And now you're finding kind of community and belonging in that, even though you're not, like, a member of that community yourself.
Christina [01:25:43] Yeah, you're.
Nemo [01:25:44] You're.
Christina [01:25:44] Yeah.
Nemo [01:25:45] Not only is your best friend bi, but now there's a trans person in your friendship group as well. Was this causing more dissonance at the time.
Christina [01:25:52] Well, at the. Yeah, well, at the time, I didn't really know that. That he was trans. I mean, he had openly transitioned, but it was so convincing to me that I didn't realize until after a while, and then I was just okay with it. I was really happy that he'd find his place. Place. And, you know, he definitely felt very comfortable in his skin and he was just nice to everyone. And he was actually just someone that I inspired, like, aspire to be as well.
Nemo [01:26:19] Okay.
Christina [01:26:19] So. And I just couldn't see how someone like that could be a bad person. Yeah.
Nemo [01:26:25] And that's one of the benefits to being European in the church is we are often surrounded by. If we allow ourselves to see it, we're often surrounded by people who aren't members of the church. Church, but who are very good people. Because our social group isn't exclusively members of the church, we see that, I think, a lot more that the scary world is actually just full of pretty decent people.
Christina [01:26:48] Yeah, definitely.
First Relationship Outside the Church
Nemo [01:26:50] Okay, so one of those decent people in the scary, scary world was your first boyfriend. Tell me about it.
Christina [01:26:56] Yes. Oh, God. This whole story. Yeah. So we hit it off, like I said, immediately started texting a lot. We had a lot of fun together. It was. He thought it was really funny, which, you know, I appreciate.
Christina [01:27:14] Other than that he was an atheist, of course, when I. When I asked him, you have to assume that most people. Most youth in the Netherlands are atheists. And I kind of held off on talking about my face a lot until we got together.
Christina [01:27:34] Yeah. Once I. Once we got together, I kind of started talking about it a little bit, but mostly kept it to myself because I also wasn't sure about what I believed really. So I didn't want to have to explain all the weird stuff that I was taught without having a firm conviction in it or knowing how to explain it even.
Christina [01:27:56] So I kind of kept that apart as much as possible. And. Yeah, once we. Once we started dating, it was very. It was like my first experience dating. I was still 15, so I actually technically wasn't supposed to date. My parents were kind of flexible on that.
Christina [01:28:17] So your parents knew and my parents did know. Okay. But we mostly, like, they didn't meet him right away because we mostly hung out at his house because not as many rules there. And it's just nice. Yeah, it was just nice environment.
Christina [01:28:35] And. Yeah, of course we started having, like, physical feelings towards each other and. Yeah. So I don't know how to. How to start to explain. This
Nemo [01:28:49] floor is yours?
Christina [01:28:50] Yeah, I I know. So once we started, you know, engaging with each other physically, I started kissing and all of that. I was kind of surprised by this, the sexual feelings that like, that came with it, because I never, never considered myself a sexual person before.
Christina [01:29:12] And so being with him kind of awakened all that in me. And it just, at first just really scared me because I'd never seen that side of me before. And I never. I didn't think that it was, you know, allowed or that it was appropriate to feel those things as a woman. Because, you know, in church, as, as a guide, you're taught that you have those feelings, but you shouldn't express those, like, outside of, you know, you know, marriage and all of that.
Christina [01:29:42] But as a woman, you're not even taught that you should have sexual feelings. Because I think sex is conceived to be as something that is done to the woman by the men and they just shouldn't really have any strong feelings about it either way, I guess. And I, you know, once I started feeling something like that, I was just like, oh, well, I must be, I must be the strange one, you know, I shouldn't be feeling this.
Christina [01:30:08] And, you know, and so once we started engaging with each other like that and it got kind of like hot and heavy in some sense, I kind of started having out of body experiences. It's hard to explain because the thing is, I felt so much shame about what was happening in the moment and that I so much that I just didn't feel like I wanted to be present. I didn't want to be responsible for what was happening, even though I did want it to happen. It was all consensual. He really cared about my consent and that was all, you know, he was, he was a really great guy, but just because of my religious upbringing, I.
Christina [01:30:52] I didn't feel like I was supposed to be doing it. I didn't feel like I should be present, like, mentally. So I usually checked out and I felt like I was watching myself from, from the ceiling, like not, not really being in my body. It was a very strange experience. I don't know if it's like if other people have had the same thing.
Nemo [01:31:14] Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's gonna be really important for lots of people to hear that the, the environment in which we grew up as Mormons can give some really unhealthy attitudes towards sex and towards kind of sexual intimacy and just even physical intimacy, you know, because every argument in youth, I don't know, you can tell me. I kind of want to get into your experience of how kind of sexuality was taught in youth and also how non members and relationships, non members were viewed. But I think everything is a slippery slope, right? Like we're told to stay away because the moment you even begin to feel something, you'll lose control and that's it.
Nemo [01:31:55] And you won't be able to stop yourself. And before you know it, you'll be X, Y, Z. Right? Everything is 10 steps along. Before you know it, there's no, well, here's how to control what's going on or here's how to deal with what's going on. It's like, just shut it off. Because otherwise.
Christina [01:32:10] Exactly. I definitely felt like I was out of control because I, you know, I didn't know what to do with those feelings because I wasn't do. I wasn't taught what to do with them because I shouldn't have them in the first place. So I felt like I didn't have a grasp on the situation. And if I would have, you know, it would have been a lot, a lot easier and a lot less, you know, a lot less shame or harm would have been involved. But, yeah, unfortunately, that, that wasn't the case.
Nemo [01:32:39] And so did you feel. Because was there any sort of stigma around the fact you were dating a non member? And did you kind of. Even though you've said it was all very consensual, you know, and you were aware that, you know, he wasn't taking advantage of you in any way, do you still feel like it was his fault?
Christina [01:32:56] No.
Nemo [01:32:56] Because he was a non member?
Christina [01:32:59] No, I didn't feel like it was his fault because most of the time I felt like I was initiating most of the contact.
Nemo [01:33:08] Right.
Christina [01:33:08] So I was, I was mostly blaming myself and I made sure to tell him that it wasn't his fault. And once I started, you know, having those shameful feelings, I kind of, you know, I think I. I sat, Sat him down to talk about it and I said, like, we should be more careful because I do have this, you know, this religious conviction to some extent that I want to uphold. And I feel like what we're doing is kind of wrong a little bit. I didn't know how I really brought it to him. And he was really confused because, you know, he thought that I was enjoying it and I was, but I also felt like I shouldn't do it. And it was just. Yeah, it was very, very strange. It was. It was difficult. Yeah. For both of us.
Nemo [01:33:48] Yeah, that. That sounds pretty difficult. And so he sounds like he was Understanding, obviously, but there is this need in Mormonism to go to someone other than the party evolved. Did you feel need to go see the bishop? Do you feel need to confess to your parents, speak to them about any of what was going on?
Confession, Guilt, and Ecclesiastical Interviews
Christina [01:34:09] Well, at first, no, I didn't feel like I wanted to tell my parents about any of it because I was. It was felt. I felt really guilty. I just wanted to handle it by myself and get, like, control over what was happening and my feelings around it. But at some point, my parents started suspecting because, you know, I'd stay away after school for long hours, even though I hadn't told them that I'd be gone or something like that. So I think after I went to bed a few times, they started looking through my phone, looking through my messages with him and. Which is, yeah, a big invasion of privacy that I didn't expect them.
Christina [01:34:48] I didn't expect them to do that. I actually hadn't. Didn't have a lock on my phone at the time because, you know, I didn't expect that they would do anything like that. But they found some texts that they deemed inappropriate, and they sat me down and they got really angry with me and they demanded, you know, all the details about the situation and what I did with him and. And all of that. And at some point, at one point, my dad got so angry with me about what I had done that he. He took my phone and he smashed it on the floor.
Christina [01:35:24] And then after that, he didn't allow me to have a new one for three months, and I was grounded for the summer. Yeah, it was. It was just very. It's very intense.
Nemo [01:35:33] Did you confront the invasion of privacy with them? Did you say, you know, like, why were you looking at my phone, etc.
Christina [01:35:40] No. No, because I didn't feel, you know, they're in position of power and authority. I didn't feel like I could challenge them in that sense. If they feel justified to do that, then I guess they. They have the right to. That's what I thought. But, yeah, I did feel like it was. It was kind of messed up of them to do that. I just didn't feel like I could hold them accountable at all.
Nemo [01:35:59] Right. Okay.
Christina [01:36:00] Yeah, that's.
Nemo [01:36:01] That's interesting. That's really interesting that they have that ability to kind of almost create a situation where even though you feel like what they've done is wrong, you can't call them out on it. You can't be like, nope, yeah, that's not cool.
Christina [01:36:17] Yeah.
Nemo [01:36:18] Okay, so did that end that relationship then.
Christina [01:36:23] Well, so this was right before the summer when I was. When I was 15. So we. We always go to Spain every summer. So I couldn't see him anyway, and I didn't have any way to digitally contact him. So he's. I started sending him letters, like, actual letters on paper, which is, you know. Yeah, very cute. And it started out as, like a romantic thing, but, you know, that summer I also went to FSY in. In Spain that year in Madrid, and just all these feelings about the. The shame and guilt about what I had done and. And all of that. Also, before. Before going for. Leaving for the summer, my parents had sent me to the bishop to confess.
Nemo [01:37:08] Right.
Christina [01:37:09] I'm jumping back. I'm sorry.
Nemo [01:37:10] No, that's fine.
Christina [01:37:11] Well, they. Well, they kind of asked me, like, do you think. Do you think it would be appropriate for you to go to the bishop? But they phrased the question, in a sense that I should go. So I was like, I guess I should. Yeah, I will. So I went. And my bishop at the time, he was. He was a sweet, sweet guy. And I kind of told him that I had, I think, physically transgressed with my boyfriend. But I didn't tell him any details. He just asked me, like, did you have sex? And I said no, because we hadn't. But that's all that he needed to know. He didn't ask any further details, which my dad had done. But I was very grateful that he didn't pry any further because it was already very uncomfortable and I didn't want to be there.
Nemo [01:37:56] But was it just you and him in the room?
Christina [01:37:58] It was just me and him, yeah. In the end, he. He told me that I couldn't take the sacrament for six weeks, I think, and that was. That was my punishment, so to speak.
Nemo [01:38:09] Okay. How did you feel about.
Christina [01:38:10] Yeah, well, at the time, I was like, oh, well, that's not such a big deal, you know, but when you're. When you're there at sacrament meeting and you have to decline the sacrament, you know, it feels like people are watching you and asking like, oh, what did she do? You know? Yeah, I'd seen the same thing with. With my dad a couple times who also had to decline the sacrament. And, you know, it just feels like a shameful experience to have to do that.
Nemo [01:38:40] Well, I can't imagine that it's not kind of designed like that because it is a public display of an audience. An audience, and you're essentially saying to someone, well, because of what you've done wrong, you can't participate in this public display so people are going to see and notice.
Nemo [01:38:56] So I can't get how Swan hasn't thought that through and gone. Well, this is clearly a public indication that someone's done something wrong. So if we want these things to be private, maybe we shouldn't do it that way.
Nemo [01:39:08] It clearly seems okay in the playbook, as it were. Okay, so you're writing letters. So you, you've gone to the bishop, you were in a room on your own as a 15 year old with the bishop and he was asking you about your sex life.
Nemo [01:39:22] I mean, this podcast upon podcasts about why that's not okay. Yeah, yeah, not cool. And the church needs to do better on that, frankly. They need to stop asking us questions and they shouldn't be alone in rooms with children. So you're writing these letters and how is, how is that affecting the relationship being this separate?
Christina [01:39:44] Okay, well, the thing is I couldn't send them like one by one. I had to send them all at once. So we didn't really have any contact at all. Like it was a one way street. So I went, I went to FSY there and I was already feeling a lot of, you know, sexual shame and I was just feeling a lot of self hate around the situation with my boyfriend. And I, I felt terrible, I felt depressed. And f is why I thought it would make me feel better. But it just, it emphasized those feelings of, you know, that I was a bad person for what I had done and just made me feel worse.
Christina [01:40:24] But at the same time it kind of broke me down in a weird way in a sense that I felt like, you know what? I need to do better, I need to change. And so I made a commitment at that FSY to change my ways as a person, kind of as a repentance. And so I started from that point on sending him letters about like, hey, I think what we did was wrong. I want to change as a person.
Christina [01:40:50] I kind of started telling him more about my, my religion and my faith. And some letters went really in depth and some letters were also very, you know, when I think about them now, they're kind of problematic and concerning because I started talking about, you know, sin and about Satan and all of that.
Christina [01:41:15] And yeah, just, just the fact that I felt like such a bad person for doing something that's so, you know, naturally human, that doesn't hurt anyone. It's just, it's really unfortunate to think about now. But yeah, those, I sent all those letters and also in a hope to get him to better Understand me and my. My situation.
Christina [01:41:40] And he didn't know. He didn't know what to do with them, really. When I went back, he kind of stopped speaking to me. But we did see each other every day, but it was just really, really awkward and he didn't know what to do. And I don't. I don't really blame him necessarily, because it's a difficult situation. And I. I can see that he felt like I changed overnight because of kind of the indoctrination at F is Y and all of that. And then after that, after I think two weeks, two or three weeks after I got back to school, I told him, hey, we should have a talk about this.
Christina [01:42:18] You know, meet me after school. And then we talked and he was like, I feel like we should break up. And then we broke up and that was the end of it. So does.
Nemo [01:42:30] I feel like if we were to look statistically almost at your communications with him, say, take your text and take your letters. Right. The amount of Mormon specific jargon and kind of like Mormon buzzwords and keywords and things that are very specific to the Mormon faith, I think would have skyrocketed. I can imagine.
Christina [01:42:50] Yeah.
Nemo [01:42:51] No, he must have concepts that he just doesn't.
Christina [01:42:54] Yeah. He must have felt so freaked out because I was. I was like a completely different person all of a sudden. And I totally understand why he wouldn't know what to do with that. So.
Nemo [01:43:04] Yeah, it's almost like he's being chastised from a perspective that he doesn't really. He can't really understand.
Christina [01:43:10] Yeah.
Nemo [01:43:11] You know, it's a poor guy. Oh, guy. And. Yeah. It's not. Not your fault that you're in this situation where, you know, because FSY is built around conformity into my mind, it's built around making sure everyone's dressed to a certain standard. Everyone's hair is the same same. Everyone, you know, has only got one set of earrings. In all this other stuff, it's built to try and create this harmony that is conducive to then these large public kind of manifestations of uplifted emotion to try and get everyone feeling the spirit and all that sort of stuff.
Nemo [01:43:45] So you're in that environment that tells you what you've done is wrong. And. And rather than being able to say, well, okay, it's wrong according to this religion, but I can take myself away. You can't escape the. The drive. Everything around you is driving you to need to be like these people around you. I would imagine, just from my experience,
Christina [01:44:05] FSY certainly Yeah, no, that definitely feels like that. Yeah.
Nemo [01:44:09] Okay, so you. You. That. That relationship ended, and what was the kind of. The fallout from that? What was the. What was the kind of. Yeah, the fallout.
Christina [01:44:18] The.
Nemo [01:44:20] The wreckage that it left behind.
Christina [01:44:22] Yeah. Well, it definitely broke my heart. It was really difficult. And since, you know, we had the same friends and I didn't feel like I was comfortable being around him, I started avoiding him and his. His slash, my friends for the rest of, you know, that school year. And so through losing that relationship, I kind of lost my friends as well, which is, you know, which was unfortunate. But other than that, you know, when people started asking him about, you know, why we broke up, I heard from one of our mutual friends that he had told her that we'd broken up because I was too religious.
Christina [01:45:05] That's what he. That's what he had told her, apparently. And I felt really, you know, I felt really hurt after that because, you know, know, I think after that is when I started being known as the religious girl kind of around school, and it wasn't. It wasn't a fun experience. Yeah.
Nemo [01:45:23] And it's. It's all part of this thing where Mormonism kind of can otherize you. And I think this is one of the things I really want to shine a light on through these podcasts and through you sharing your story and Europeans sharing that story, is that when you're the only Mormon around, it can be really easy to fall into the us versus them narrative and have it really affect your life. When the us versus them narrative is you versus some unseen. Some unseen outside world because everyone around you goes to the same seminary class as you. It doesn't have the same effect as when you're the only one in your school.
Christina [01:45:59] Yeah.
Nemo [01:45:59] And you feel like you have to withdraw yourself because of Mormon experiences. And we've just had up on screen someone saying that it's a real shame how the church shames developmentally healthy relationships. And that's a good point, too, is that, you know, what you were taking part in essentially, is the beginning of your sexual development.
Christina [01:46:16] Right.
Nemo [01:46:17] You're learning about your sexuality with other people, and the church has put a shame on that and making you feel bad about that, and that's not going to create healthy sex life further down the line.
Christina [01:46:30] Yeah, exactly.
Early Doubts and Discovering Ex-Mormon Perspectives
Nemo [01:46:32] Okay, so you've.
Christina [01:46:33] You.
Nemo [01:46:33] You're kind of isolated now, at least for the rest of this school year away, because you've just come off a summer. So you then go through that school year. So what does that put you at about 16 or so yes.
Christina [01:46:46] Yeah, I was 16.
Nemo [01:46:48] Okay. So what's 16 year old Christina? Because that was only two years ago. What's 16 year old Christina up to?
Christina [01:46:56] God, it was, it just, it feels like so, so long ago, like all of this, which is really funny because I'm so young. But 16 year old me, I was, well, right after fsy was when I was most, most devout. But that usually like kind of starts kind of declining after a few months and my parents would really hammer down on that, that I should, you know, keep reading my scriptures and keep praying, praying and you know, keep being the person that I was in, you know, after the summer.
Nemo [01:47:31] Elevated.
Christina [01:47:31] Right. The right wave. Yeah, yeah. But after a while it's just not sustainable, I think. And there's no. Yeah. So I just, I went, I went through periods and waves of, of doubt and devotion kind of. So that's where I kind of was at 16. I think 16 was also when I started kind of looking. Looking around more on YouTube and that's actually when I first discovered the channel Zelf on the shelf, I think. Cool.
Nemo [01:48:00] So 16 year old Christina's watching Tana and Sam.
Christina [01:48:04] Sam. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, at first I just thought they were very, you know, funny, kind, lovely people. And I loved how welcoming, welcoming and open minded they were.
Nemo [01:48:16] I can attest. They are.
Christina [01:48:18] They are. Yeah, they are. And I think at the time their content was not really as much as I remember, focused on ex Mormonism or maybe I just tuned it out. I just, I really appreciated the personalities and any kind of ex Mormon facts that they would mention I kind of put on the shelf and I didn't really think about at the time.
Nemo [01:48:40] Okay, so you're kind of, you're looking at them through a believing lens still because their kind of vibe essentially gels with you.
Christina [01:48:48] Yeah.
Nemo [01:48:48] But you're like, well, I'm gonna ignore the X mode bit of it. These are just people that kind of have lived my experience too, and I'm kind of vibing off that rather than the factual nature of what they're doing. Is that, is that a correct kind of way to put it?
Christina [01:49:05] Yeah, yeah, that is correct.
Nemo [01:49:06] How did you feel comfortable doing that? I like as a, as a member, because one of the things I'm always really curious about is how do believing members engage with content like mine, like Tanner's, like Mormon stories. How. How do you get into that position where you're open and comfortable hearing it, even if you're not ready to hear the ex mo bit yet?
Christina [01:49:29] I don't. I honestly don't know. Like, I still, I think about it now and I'm like, well, how didn't I realize? You know, I think it's just that I tried to tune it out, and other than that, you know, they're just two people, and they're not like a reliable source in the sense that, you know, people say. And so I felt like, well, maybe that's just what they think and what they believe about the church history. But, you know, it might. It might not be entirely accurate. And so I just kind of rationalized that in a way, because I. I didn't think it would be as bad as they said, and it ended up being as bad as they said.
Nemo [01:50:08] I'm sorry. I, I. If I missed it, I apologize. How exactly did you come across their content?
Christina [01:50:14] I don't know. YouTube's like, algorithm. I don't know what they do.
Nemo [01:50:18] I think YouTube algorithm.
Christina [01:50:20] Yeah. I think I started watching, like, a few atheist videos here and there, like, making fun of Jehovah's Witnesses, for example.
Nemo [01:50:29] Okay. So it's like, enemy of my enemy is my friend. Kind of like we're all mocking the Jehovah's Witnesses. So that's.
Christina [01:50:35] Yeah, in a sense. I don't know. I think that's maybe how they. How it got recommended to me.
Nemo [01:50:42] Okay.
Christina [01:50:44] Yeah, but.
Nemo [01:50:45] Okay, again, I'm just. I'm just curious. Sorry if I'm like a dog with a bone, but I'm just trying to work out this point at which you feel comfortable engaging with. With this sort of stuff. I mean, we've. We've established through the conversation so far that you and your dad really are people that have this logical side to you, that you can hold these two positions and you can kind of sit with some of that dissonance to it. You can tolerate it quite well. But I'm just wondering how the scales got tipped, how you ended up deciding to engage with that other side, that other world.
Christina [01:51:21] Yeah, well, Well, I. I spent a while in that place of cognitive dissonance. I think about a year or a year and a half. It wasn't until I was 17 that I actually started, like, looking into church history. Seriously. But how I got to that point, even at 16. Yeah, yeah, let me think for a little bit.
Nemo [01:51:47] Yeah, no worries. Take a moment. I'm just gonna read Maven's comment while you're having a think. Maven saying that this happened to her, too. It was safer to look at the problems of other religions, but then there starts to be a bit of overlap. But Again, the question is, how did you come to the point where you're like, I'm gonna have a look at what's wrong with Jehovah's Witnesses today?
Christina [01:52:04] Like, Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, well, that's kind of. Because I think just people at school and, you know, it was kind of hip at the time, like around, I think, 20, I don't know, 2018. 2019 or something, to be kind of like a rationalist atheist. And the content was also popular on YouTube at the time. I think I just kind of got into it a little bit, and I started relating more and more to the things that they said, and I started having more and more, like, smaller to bigger doubts about the church and the culture and the doctrine. Yeah, I think the first.
Nemo [01:52:47] I was at university during that time, and that was, yeah, popular here, too.
Christina [01:52:51] Oh, okay. Then I think.
Nemo [01:52:53] And Jaskif, modified atheists, all that sort of stuff.
Christina [01:52:57] That's all, like, that is what I watched.
Nemo [01:52:59] Popular.
Christina [01:53:00] Yeah, yeah.
Nemo [01:53:02] So if you can laugh at these videos about Atlantis and all that sort of stuff, if you've not seen armored skeptics videos on Atlantis, it's a. It's a wild ride. Go check that out.
Christina [01:53:11] Yeah.
Nemo [01:53:12] So, okay, so I think we're getting there. Then you're kind of able to look at this stuff, and then through the algorithm, Zelf arrives.
Christina [01:53:21] I think one of the. One of the first things that kind of fell for me was, you know, everything about the Old Testament, just learning more about that and seeing people debunking it on. On YouTube about how ridiculous it is, you know, you know, at the story of Adam and Eve or the flood or anything like that. That is just impossible that it could have happened. Right. And once I started thinking about that, I was like, yeah, okay, I could accept that it didn't happen, literally.
Christina [01:53:52] So I started becoming more, like, metaphorical believer because I saw, like, a space in that. But then a lot of tension started happening between me and, you know, my fellow Mormons, my teachers, my parents, because I talked to my parents about, you know, Old Testament stuff and evolution and all that.
Christina [01:54:12] And my dad said, like, he did believe in evolution, but, you know, he believed that God caused it some way. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, but how. How could that have happened? And at the same time, he also believed in Adam and Eve, literally. So I was like, how can you hold that together? Like, I can't see a way that that could make sense.
Christina [01:54:33] And, yeah, like, for him, it was just. Well, I choose to believe anyway. And for me, Well, I just need a better reason than that. Yeah.
Nemo [01:54:44] As if you're getting into this rationalist sort of space headspace, then. Yeah, you're going to be very much like, well, I. I need a reason for this. You know, I need. I need some logic here, because I'm watching all this other stuff, and it's logical, and it's speaking to that logical part of me. Yeah, I get that.
Christina [01:55:00] Yeah. Oh, and also important, around this time during, like, when I started thinking about things more logically and I wanted to have, like, reasons to believe things, my parents started telling me that, well, Christina, you're. You're feeding your logical side a lot of. But you should also feed your emotional and spiritual side because, you know, it's not good for you not to be, you know, not to be spiritual or emotional, especially, you know, since I'm a woman and I. And I should be, you know, less. Less logical in that sense. One thing that they hammered on is that I should listen more to my heart than my mind.
Nemo [01:55:39] Right.
Christina [01:55:40] That's what they kept telling me. Even though, like, a lot of what I. What I. My opinions at the time, especially surrounding, you know, the LGBT community or, for example, feminism, stuff like that, and just social justice in general. Those all stem. Not only from a logical perspective, also an emotional perspective. And I just feel like they were completely downplaying that and just. It really hurt me to hear every time, because it felt like they were gaslighting me.
Nemo [01:56:07] Well, it's like, listen to your heart. As long as it enforces what we want you to think. Because your heart is what got you into trouble with your first boyfriend. Right. Your. Your feelings. Right. Not. Not your logic, your feelings will what put you in that place.
Christina [01:56:21] So
Nemo [01:56:23] the heart is a fickle thing, frankly. And you do need both.
Christina [01:56:31] Yeah.
Nemo [01:56:31] And you can't. You can't say, well, you need your heart, but only when it does what we want you to do. And you need your logic so far as you come to the conclusions that we want you to.
Christina [01:56:38] Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Nemo [01:56:42] Okay, so you're 16. You're watching Zelf on a shelf. Tell me. Tell me a bit about kind of how Zelf made you feel. You know, you said they were kind of welcoming people. I can attest to that. Very funny, too. Yeah, but how they make you feel.
Christina [01:56:58] When I started watching them, I just felt like they were kind of hippies, but in a good way. And, you know, it was something that I hadn't really encountered before. And just the way that they. That they talked and the way they interacted with each other. It was just like. Yeah, that's, that's what I want really. I just realized that it's. It just felt. Yeah. I don't know how to, how to describe it because I also, I shared the content with my best friend that I mentioned before. She also started watching them and she, she also really liked them. So we got into. Together and, you know, it just. I don't remember, like specific things that I, that I thought about them or their, or their content. I just, I just really like them as people.
Nemo [01:57:40] Okay. And that kind of. I suppose what that will do for you is the. Take away the stigmatization. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christina [01:57:51] Destigmatize ex Mormonism. Because before that, you know, you're taught that, you know, ex Mormons, people who leave the church, they're bad people for this, this and this reason, they just want to sin or, you know, they didn't try hard enough, stuff like that. But I did, I did hear, you know, Sam and Tanner's stories about why, why and how they left and you know, that they were devout believers beforehand. So that really changed, you know, the stereotype that I had in my mind of ex Mormonism. And really I stopped antagonizing them. You know, they're just people, just like we are kind of thing.
Nemo [01:58:28] Okay, well. And, and I guess in the same way as your bishop said, the shoulder is technically the beginning of the breast and Tanner were technically the beginning of your faith crisis. Right.
Christina [01:58:44] I. I suppose they were the gateway.
Nemo [01:58:46] Say that they were the gateway drug for you to kind of experience ex Mormonism. So. But you said that you had kind of put the ex Mormon part on the shelf. So how did that time between encountering them and then full blown research that you said happened about a year later, how does that time look?
Christina [01:59:07] Well, I started disagreeing with a few more things, not really on the church history side because I didn't really know a lot about that specifically yet. Like, I knew a few things vaguely, but I didn't know if they were true or not. But specifically around, like I said, LGBT rights, feminism was really important to me. Like the whole, the, the sexism in the church really, really bothered me, especially surrounding the priesthood. And yeah, I actually talked about that in, in seminary a few times and I started an argument once which was, which was not a good idea because, you know, there's like eight people against you, you know, and they're not going to side with you and anything you say just sounds ridiculous.
Nemo [01:59:53] Yeah, but you've shown you're not afraid of, like, standing out and pushing out against the trend.
Christina [01:59:59] So, yeah, because I asked, I specifically, I didn't frame it as a confrontation. I just asked the question, like, why is it, like, for what reason do men have the priesthood and women don't? Right. And the. You know, because it's. It's normal and it's like that. That's the thing in the church. But there's never a reason given for it. So I wanted to have some kind of reason for it.
Christina [02:00:24] My teacher started going on about, you know, that women don't need it because they're already so righteous and men do need it to learn, like, how to be more spiritual. And just. I didn't think that made any sense because I, as a woman, didn't feel like the pinnacle of spirituality or anything at the time. And I didn't feel like, you know, you should put men who are, like, spiritually incompetent at the top as, like, leadership. Like, it didn't make sense logically either. And it felt really condescending because it's technically, it's benevolent sexism.
Nemo [02:01:00] And.
Christina [02:01:00] Yeah, I just. I never felt like that was right. But everyone else agreed with her, so I didn't know what else to say, really.
Nemo [02:01:08] That's a solid point to be making at 17. Sorry, go on.
Christina [02:01:12] Yeah. And something else that she said in that conversation. My teacher. My teacher at the time, that was my last year of seminary, I think. I think third and last, maybe. See what. She was from England. She was a British Mormon.
Nemo [02:01:26] I'm sorry.
Christina [02:01:28] It's okay. Because. Yeah. Because we were having seminary in English since we have so many international people in our ward, so most of our, like, all the sacrament meetings were translated to. To English through headsets. And all the lessons were, like, for the youth were given completely in English.
Nemo [02:01:44] Yeah. So that's special. Can I point this out to the audience? Right, sure. The reason that at this point, Christina has actually given me a word I couldn't think of in English. Right. This is the point we're at. This is like Christina's third language, and we're having a really great conversation.
Nemo [02:02:03] The Dutch are incredible at learning English. Right. I don't know of another country where they speak English as a second language so well as the Netherlands. And so it doesn't surprise me at all that you're having your seminary lessons in English. When I went there to church, everyone could speak English to me. I tried to speak Dutch for a day. And I met one person who couldn't speak English and didn't Immediately revert to English to speak to me, because it's easier for them to speak English with me than it is for me to speak Dutch with them. So that the international audience need to know that the Dutch are incredible at speaking English.
Christina [02:02:42] Thank you. Yeah, but I mean, most of the youth are really, really good at English or were English American themselves, or we had been with an Italian and a few girls from Ghana and. But there was. There were like two people, I think one of. I think the younger kids who weren't as proficient in English. So they did really struggle with. With the lessons. So the teachers did have to translate for them, which, you know, should be provided, obviously, because we're in the Netherlands. Other. Other than that. Yeah, mostly. Yeah. Everyone. Everyone can speak English pretty well. Oh, God. Yeah, everyone can speak English pretty well. Except for, you know, the elderly, which. Which makes sense. Other than that, you're correct. Yes.
Nemo [02:03:31] Yeah. Yeah. It's quite intimidating, actually, sometimes. So you're standing up in seminary because we've got on a tangent here, because standing up in seminary, you're really starting to go for it.
Christina [02:03:44] This was when it was online. This was in 2020 during the pandemic. So it didn't feel as, you know, intimidating as doing it in person necessarily. And you know, afterwards I did get really upset, but I could like turn off my screen because I wanted to cry. Right, yeah.
Nemo [02:04:04] Okay. And. And I mean, you mentioned the pandemic. Essentially you're. You're an ex Mormon of the pandemic. Right. This is when it was all going on. Can you tell me a bit about how the pandemic played a part in this kind of lead up to your faith crisis?
Faith Crisis, the CES Letter, and Leaving During the Pandemic
Christina [02:04:19] Well, I think, you know, we were in the pandemic and at first we weren't really having church online at all. They still had to figure out how to do that. And I kind of started looking into more things and actually started going on Reddit more on different subreddits.
Christina [02:04:38] Yeah, mostly I think at first, R. Latter Day Saints and R. Mormon, which are mostly towards the believing side. Well, the latter is a bit more, you know, mixed. But I started encountering some different ideas there and I felt like I could express my own ideas there because I always could find someone that was like minded and I felt more accepted and like I wasn't crazy, which really helped.
Christina [02:05:08] Yeah. And that, like, after a while you start encountering people actually start posting actual sources for things. For example, like, Fair Mormon is one of the first things that I started looking into, which is an apologist website and so for any questions that I picked up on that subreddit, I would just go there and figure out, like, what was true about it and how to reconcile it, because that was still my main focus. I still wanted to find a way to fit it into my. My. My faith and because I wanted to believe because it's the easiest thing, you know, because I didn't feel like I had any other choice since I was still underage.
Christina [02:05:49] And my parents, I felt like they would still force me to go to church no matter what. So I was just desperately trying. And so I started looking into more. More sources and finding out about the history about Joseph Smith polygamy and the. The history of racism.
Nemo [02:06:09] As this is November 20th.
Christina [02:06:10] All of this, I think. Yeah, it's like that's. That's when it kind of started really getting intense and it's snowballed from there. That is also November 2020 is the time that I found your channel, because that's when you started. Right.
Nemo [02:06:27] I think about that.
Christina [02:06:28] I was. Yeah, I was. I was with you since the beginning, which is really cool. So we've gone full circle, I guess.
Nemo [02:06:35] Yeah.
Christina [02:06:36] But before that, I had already started listening to Mormon stories a lot, to Mormon discussions with Bill Real and rfm, and just. I was devouring all this, all this content, and it was just so much information that a lot of it didn't even, like, process at first. So I had to hear it a few times to really realize the gravity of what. What. What it was and how to, like, deal with it. And it's. Yeah, it's just a lot. A lot happens in your brain at that time, and you don't know what to do with that. It's just really crazy.
Nemo [02:07:09] And a pandemic is a. Is a time when a lot of this will start to happen because, you know, you. You have more time on your hands. Right. You're at home a lot. You're not going out and about.
Christina [02:07:19] Yeah.
Nemo [02:07:20] This sort of isolation you talked about earlier, where you kind of withdrew from your friends and you might have felt a bit isolated at church, I suppose, because you're coming a bit less orthodox, a bit more heterodox.
Christina [02:07:31] Yeah, yeah.
Nemo [02:07:32] Is this. Did that form part of what drove you to look for kind of a resolution? Because you've got a foot in both camps and neither camp is serving you.
Christina [02:07:41] Yeah, no. Yeah. I felt, because online there's a lot of, you know, there's true believing Mormons and then there's, you know, hardcore ex Mormons, and there's not A lot of space between that. I mean, there's some nuance, but it's just. I didn't know where I. Where I fit. And I just. I had to figure out what I wanted to do and what. Who I wanted to be, really. But at first I was. I was really fighting to stay in the church because I wanted to be, you know, like everyone else, to fit in and to, like, have a life and friends and, you know, the community, because I did appreciate the.
Christina [02:08:18] The community that was in the church. Once I started becoming a bit different, it didn't feel as. As safe or, you know, reliable or, like, understanding, and I wanted to get back to that place. So I started the. Looking for answers to. To reconcile all the. Everything that I was feeling, but I couldn't really find anything that would change my mind.
Nemo [02:08:44] What did you make of the apologists?
Christina [02:08:47] Well, I think that was around January 2021 that I started to. That was. I was watching Mormon stories a lot. And at that time, I think a series of interviews with apologist Jim Bennett came out discussing. Discussing the CES letter, which I think I hadn't read because, I mean, there was so much controversy around it that I was like, oh, I shouldn't. I shouldn't read that. You know, I only read it later after I'd fully like, transitioned.
Christina [02:09:24] But I. I heard him debunking the things that. Well, trying to debunk the things that were in it and arguing with Jim Bennett. And I also watched. I also listened to his discussions with Bill Real. I listened to all of them twice. So I was really. They're really long, but I was really serious about all of this. And I was trying to figure out, like, if I. If I could find some things to kind of rationalize or reconcile. If, like, if I make this concession, then maybe this makes more sense. And trying to give the Church the benefit of the doubt.
Christina [02:09:56] But just those interviews kind of. Because having everything just packed together like that, like everything that is wrong with the history of Mormonism, it's just. It kind of shatters you because there's no way that the church could be true given that all of these things are true. Right. It's just, It's. It's crazy because.
Nemo [02:10:17] Weight of it, it seems.
Christina [02:10:18] Yeah, it's so much. And he really did his best. Like, Jim really tried his best defending it, and he's the best apologist that I've found up to date. And some of his points I can appreciate. But just having it all stacked together, it doesn't make Mormonism as A belief sustainable.
Nemo [02:10:40] And I want to say massive kudos to Jim Bennett for coming on the show and being willing to have that conversation.
Christina [02:10:46] Yeah, no, he's a great guy.
Nemo [02:10:48] Yeah, it's, it's great for that. And you can feel the sincerity. Jim Bennett, he's trying really hard. Yeah. And you're right, there are. And one of the things I started with my channel was that, you know, apologists will get some hits sometimes, right? They will get some. They will point out if someone has, you know, leapt a little bit far and they've gone. Well, actually, you guys, let's pull this back. But like you said, it's the weight of all of it. And it's what I think the Cesar actually does quite well.
Nemo [02:11:15] Assuming you went on to read it. Yeah, it puts it all together, right? And it's, it's all there. And it's the weight of it all. It's the pattern that you start to see. It's like when you're calling out the church leadership for lying, you look at one dishonest behavior and you think, okay, well that's a one off. But then when you see that they all lie multiple times, you're like, well, okay, is this a broader pattern I have to pay attention to now? Okay, so I put my channel out. You saw that you're watching yourself, you're watching Mormon stories, all that sort of stuff. How did that affect your relationship with your parents, with your church friends? What's the impact of this faith crisis you're going through?
Christina [02:12:02] Well, yeah, well, it started really changing me as, as a person and the way that I, that I viewed things often, obviously. And that, of course, has a big, you know, influence and impact on how you interact with others.
Christina [02:12:14] And yeah, it started to create a lot more tension. And, you know, once I started leaning more, you know, ex Mormon, once I started leaning more like, oh, well, this is very likely, like, not true. I just, I kind of shut down. I didn't. I stopped interacting with a lot of people, stopped arguing at all because I could see that it was pointless. Whereas before I just, I thought that maybe I could change people's minds or maybe they could come up with a better answer. I actually, at the time, when I was still in seminary, when I was desperately looking for answers, I asked my bishop if I could also attend institute early because I figured that maybe there will be answers there that could help me.
Nemo [02:13:01] Yeah.
Christina [02:13:01] But there were not at all. So I attended like four classes and then I gave up on it because it really didn't help at All.
Nemo [02:13:11] It's like that milk before meat thing, right? And I suppose you were thinking, well, maybe the meat's just around the corner.
Christina [02:13:17] Yeah.
Nemo [02:13:18] And you realize that the meat is never actually there. It's all milk, which, I mean, you're Dutch, so you love milk, right? Milk is a large part of the Dutch diet.
Christina [02:13:25] Yeah, sure.
Nemo [02:13:27] But, you know, joking aside, there is that element, isn't there, of that. Well, it will come next if you're just patient, if you just endure, it will come next. But I think what you were maybe seeing was that actually there is. That you can start to see the man behind the curtain in Oz. You know, there's. There's. There's nothing there. There's. There's no more substance that you could.
Christina [02:13:47] Yeah, And I totally expected there to be because that's why. That's why I wanted to be moved up to Institute, because I thought there'd be answers there. And I knew that the institute teacher, which was the teacher at my school, was a very intelligent guy and he had a PhD in philosophy. And I was like, well, if he believes it, then there must be a good reason for him to.
Nemo [02:14:05] Right?
Christina [02:14:06] Because my parents also kept hammering down on the idea that, you know, there are way smarter people than you that still believe in Mormonism, so why. Why can't you? And so that's. It's also a kind of like, gaslighting that I experienced.
Nemo [02:14:20] Such a bad meme, Such such a bad idea that's so invasive. It's like, well, so and so believes it and he's really smart, so just trust him. It's like, well, he's either not being fully honest with himself or he is so good at compartmentalizing that, you know, he's able to live in these two worlds. But people have to understand that for some of us, that doesn't wash. Yeah, the same thing.
Christina [02:14:45] Yeah, the same thing with my. With my grandpa, who is a professional anthropologist. When you look at the lack of evidence for everything that happened in the Book of Mormon through archaeology, anthropology, all of that, there's no way that the Book of Mormon could ever be true. How could my grandfather still believe in it? That's the question that I started having. And I come from my Dutch family is kind of intellectual in a sense, and they're known for that. I remember at FSY there being this one of the leaders there who knew me through my. My grandpa, my dad. And she was, oh, you're going to be a fickle one. That's what she said. She knew I was going to be difficult because of them, because they're. I mean, they're still believing, but they're just a little different than everyone else, in a sense. I just. I don't know how to describe that perfect sense.
Nemo [02:15:38] I think there's a. A lot of people will know someone like that in the church that's got that reputation for being a little bit edgy, a little bit. Kind of like they'll ask the difficult questions in class, but it's. And they're the ones that allow a lot of other people to switch off and go, well, you know, there's someone here more intelligent than me who. Who asked the difficult questions. They're. They're into the deep doctrine, and they're still in. So it's fine.
Christina [02:16:04] Yeah. No, my dad never really, really directly challenge the church. Like, mostly the. The culture, for example, the whole. He was against the whole idea that the Elders Quorum have. About being better than Relief Society, you know, because of the priesthood. And he said, well, the Relief Society actually follows through on other service projects, and they actually help people. What are we doing? You know, that's. That's what he said in Elders Quorum. And everyone except. I think.
Christina [02:16:34] I think it was a second counselor for a stake presidency that was also there. I disagreed with him, but the councillor did agree with him. So he was kind of in a minority in that sense, and I applaud him for standing up for that. Also. A smaller thing is that he doesn't care what color shirt he wears to church, which is so controversial for some reason. And he feels like he's like, really, you know, being controversial. He's really challenging the norms there when it's just the color of a shirt. But I understand. I understand what he means.
Nemo [02:17:10] I also noticed people like this because I've known people like this growing up. I think I was one of these people in some way. I think you probably were, too, to an extent. You will go through that phase of differentiating between the culture of the church and the doctrine in the church, and you'll get comfortable criticizing the culture of the church because you're like, well, I can criticize that. That's not the church.
Christina [02:17:31] Yeah, the policies.
Nemo [02:17:32] Yeah, that's. Yeah, right. And. And so if we can muddy the waters around policies, say, well, that's just a policy, I can disagree with that. That's why people really don't like that. D quote, when he says, I don't know. It's possible to differentiate between policy and doctrine in a church that believes that we have a living Prophet. People don't like that because. Because a lot of people's way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance is they take a lot of the things they don't like about the church and they blame that on the culture, even if it is prescribed from Salt Lake City, they just blame it on the culture.
Nemo [02:18:01] And this culture, that thing can be got rid of. And so it seems like your dad's kind of in some of that position where his way of dealing with the things he doesn't like about the church is to be like, well, that's culture. So I'm. I can. I can get.
Christina [02:18:16] Yeah, yeah. And he has kind of a reputation for being a little, like, different and feisty, like you say. And so that's kind of a reason that he is also, like, ostracized to some extent, or at least he feels that he is because he doesn't get any, like, many leadership positions. Something in. In the church because he doesn't toe the party line. Yeah, he was mostly for most of my youth, he was my Sunday school teacher.
Nemo [02:18:42] Okay.
Christina [02:18:43] As well. Yeah.
Nemo [02:18:44] I just have to say. Right. I was a Sunday school teacher as well. All the best guys in the church are Sunday school teachers. I'm just getting that out there. All the best guys. Your dad, you know, I'm sure. I'm sure John's been a Sunday school teacher. I'm sure Bill Real's been a Sunday school teacher. You know, it seems to be where they put the. The vocal ones who kind of want to have their say. Stick them in the school. Yeah.
Christina [02:19:07] Yeah.
Nemo [02:19:08] Okay, so how. I mean, while we're on the topic of your parents, let's ask the question, how has this been with you and your parents? How have you broached the topic of your faith crisis? Or have you not.
Coming Out of the Church to Family and Leaders
Christina [02:19:22] Or, like, since, like, right now? Like, what. What it's like now? Or like, should I talk through.
Nemo [02:19:28] Through it? So. Yeah.
Christina [02:19:30] Oh, okay. Well, I think it was, like, it was a huge build up until I decided that I. That I couldn't believe anymore. Um, but I think in March 2021 was when I was like, yeah, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. And I kept it a secret for about a month from everyone except for my best friend, like I said, and she was elated that I was finally out and.
Nemo [02:20:00] Okay, so how did that conversation go? How did that first conversation.
Christina [02:20:06] I. Let's see. Well, I was. I was very emotional and I kind of. I was. I was heartbroken, honestly, because I tried so hard and I Still failed. But at the same time, you know, I felt like the church was, it was all a lie and I felt so, so hurt. And so it was just a lot of feelings going on and she was trying to be empathetic, but at the same she was just really, really happy. And she was like, oh, now we can go out drinking together. Together and all.
Nemo [02:20:33] Did you know she was out? So is that why she was a safe person to go to? Did you know she was out already or was it one of those moments?
Christina [02:20:42] Oh, my best friend. Oh, my best, my best friend wasn't in the church.
Nemo [02:20:46] Okay. She's never been a member of the church.
Christina [02:20:48] Never.
Nemo [02:20:48] Ah, apologies. I made an assumption there.
Christina [02:20:50] No, that's, no, that's okay. Yeah. So, yeah, we'd been best friends for like six years at that point.
Nemo [02:20:57] Right. Okay.
Christina [02:20:58] And, you know, we'd, we'd gotten along about everything, but then if something about religion came up in conversation, it would always get a little tense because, you know, I had these opinions that were not really opinions and beliefs that were not really grounded in anything. And when she would say something really rational, I would get offended.
Nemo [02:21:17] Let's just have, let's have your best friend's side of the story for a second because she says, I had been unsuccessfully trying to get you out of there in the beginning of the friendship and then gave up.
Christina [02:21:29] Yeah, and she gave up, I think around the time that I actually started getting into all of this.
Nemo [02:21:33] Okay.
Christina [02:21:34] But I, yeah, I don't know, I don't think she carry on. I don't think she could have gotten me out because you can't really, you know, get out of that Mormon mindset unless you, you feel like you, you're able to, you know, you can't accept the truth about something unless you're ready to hear. Hear the truth. Yeah. So in the end, she was, she was really happy for me that I'd finally figured it out and she was the only safe person I could go to to talk about this.
Nemo [02:22:05] Yeah.
Christina [02:22:06] So it really strengthened our friendship, I feel like. And yeah, I didn't tell my parents for a month, so. But I still continue to, you know, go to seminary and to church and to pretend to be someone that I, that I wasn't. And that was really difficult for me. So after that month, I told my parents, first of all, that I wanted to quit my calling as young women's class president, which I was at the time. I just said that I didn't want to be it anymore. And they started asking follow up questions like why, what's, what's going on? And that's when it kind of slipped out that, you know, I don't feel like I can respond, be responsible for, for these girls because I, I don't, I don't believe the church anymore.
Nemo [02:22:52] Who did you say that to?
Christina [02:22:53] Sorry, that was, that was my mom. And my mom told my dad later. But yeah, at first my parents were really in shock. They didn't know, like, how, how serious this was for me. They thought maybe it's just something that will go over or something. So they, they did tell me to still go to church and still attend activities and, and all of that. And I did that for a while and I didn't tell anyone at church for a while, even though they did know that I was having a difficult time.
Christina [02:23:25] Yeah. And so that really hurt to have my parents just completely ignore this thing that I'd spend months and months researching and doubting. And it took me so long to learn to trust myself. But when I finally did done it, my parents wouldn't accept it and that, that was difficult.
Christina [02:23:51] But then after I think a month or two of that, I stepped up for myself and I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. You know, I was almost at the end of my, my last high school year and I felt like I was, I need to assert independence because, I mean, I'm going to be an adult and you know, I'm my own person, I can make my own decisions.
Christina [02:24:17] And it took them a while to, to, to accept that. And at first they didn't, but, you know, they felt like I should be able to make my own choice, even though they, they were really angry and disappointed with me.
Christina [02:24:30] So I, Well, I didn't stop going right away. I think before that I, I had, I had an interview scheduled with my bishop, not, not a temple interview that I'd had that like a few months before. But he knew that I was having a difficult time.
Christina [02:24:50] He didn't know that I was that far along yet. But so I went to talk to him. This was still online. And so he started asking me, so how are you feeling? And all of that. And I just. There was this silence. And then I was like, well, I just feel like I have to tell you that, you know, I don't believe in the church anymore. I don't want to go anymore. And it felt like a huge weight off my chest. And my, my bishop was also in shock at first, but he didn't really feel an entitlement to change me or Anything. He didn't want.
Christina [02:25:28] He didn't want to convince me anymore because he felt from the way that I was speaking that it was like a. Like a decision that I'd made definitively. And so he was like, well, first I think he said, I'm sorry to hear that, because, you know, it's. It's. It's hard for him to. To lose a. Lose a youth like that, because, I mean, we're. We're not very. There's not a lot of us in the church. And, you know, I was. I was really strong believer before that, and I was an example to everyone around me.
Christina [02:26:01] Like, I'm sorry to hear that, but I respect that you've made the decision, and I hope you have a good life after this. I think so. It was mostly just a good conversation, and he was really respectful, which I didn't expect. But, yeah, that was. That was nice. That was nice.
Nemo [02:26:21] And do you feel like that that's a. Because we haven't gone on the Nationalist train in about 20 minutes or so. Do you feel like that is a specific thing to kind of Dutch people, to members in Holland? Obviously, we can't generalize massively, but do you feel like it is a. I guess. I guess what I'm saying is a lot of the expectation we get, and the reason these podcasts, I think, are so important is you hear about the crazy, militant Utah bishop who screamed at someone in their office, how dare you try and leave this church? And, you know, like, we hear these stories, but then also there's these stories coming out of places like Netherlands. Like my bishop at the moment, of people being very understanding. Do you feel like, yeah, a lot of bishops in Netherlands would have been like that, or is your bishop special within the church in Netherlands?
Christina [02:27:11] No. Well, I've had. I've had several. Several bishops across the wards that I've. That I've been to. And most of them were just nice, nice people and good guys. I've had mostly good experiences with them. I did feel like they were very strict in the faith. Like, the one that I had a few years ago was so strict that he didn't allow his kids to watch a Disney movie before he'd watched the first half hour himself to check that it was appropriate for them. Cool.
Christina [02:27:46] Which I thought was extreme. But it's like that. That's the kind of, you know, that's the kind of person that he was. But other than that, you know, they're. They're very respectful and they're kind and understanding for the most part. So I feel like I. I got lucky to some extent.
Christina [02:28:04] Yeah. Because it could have gone a lot worse. Of course, because there are no regulations and place a note like the training or anything.
Nemo [02:28:11] Yeah.
Christina [02:28:12] But, yeah, I'm glad that I got the ones that I had. Okay. Yeah.
Nemo [02:28:17] Right. So. So there is still that bishop roulette going on in the Netherlands. Of course. There always is gonna be because people are individuals. I get that.
Christina [02:28:24] Yeah.
Nemo [02:28:25] I was just wondering whether some of that laid back Dutchness had made its way into church leadership positions. But of course, they still have a rule book to follow. Right. They have the church to follow still. So, you know, okay, so you told your bishop, and after that point you said you feel like this weight came off your chest? So is that when you then started to kind of become more public about it or do you still keep yourself.
Christina [02:28:52] I didn't know how to tell the other people at church because I didn't. I didn't. It was all still online and I didn't feel like I wanted to send a message in a group chat like, hey, guys, see you. That didn't. That didn't feel appropriate. So I just. I felt like I kind of wouldn't talk about it and they would just assume, you know, what had happened. I told a few of my church friends and they. They all did know. And some of them, you know, one of. One of them, one girl actually understood me in a lot of ways. And I talked to her about a lot of church history and as well, when I was still like, in the, like, like in the early stages of this faith transition.
Nemo [02:29:40] Issues you spoke to her about?
Christina [02:29:42] Well, most, it was mostly about polygamy and how we both felt it was messed up. But, you know, I got to a point that I was like, why can't. I can't believe in this anymore. And she still chose to. So we just kind of separated in that sense. But she. She did understand where I was coming from, so I did feel kind of empathy from her. But everyone else I didn't really talk to, my leader started asking me where. Where I was, and I did end up having to send them a message. And I was still in, like, I was still kind of angry about the whole finding out the church isn't true thing.
Christina [02:30:20] So a lot of. Some of the messages that I. That I sent her might have come. Come off a little bit, you know, aggressive. And even though I didn't mean it to, that's just the way that I was. I was feeling at the time. And I, you know, I was trying my best not to be hostile, but you just. You're just so hurt at the time that that's the only thing that you can really do for a little while. And I hope that they understand that now. I haven't spoken to them since.
Nemo [02:30:46] Yeah, I get that. I remember the day after I kind of. My shelf snapped. I was talking to my best friend and just word vomit. It was just. Yeah, right. It just kind of comes out and I couldn't really control it. And we talk a lot on this podcast about how that's not the right thing to do. So don't do that. Yeah, but it's. It's a really. Even when you are trying to talk to someone quite. In a quite a measured way, really thinking what you say, it's very hard not to let that hurt come through. Because going back to what Mum said. Exactly.
Christina [02:31:28] Yeah.
Nemo [02:31:28] You're told, well, make sure you're feeling your emotional side as well. There's a lot of emotional attachment. This isn't just a thought thing. This is how I feel. This.
Christina [02:31:38] This is my feelings, my entire worldview up to this point.
Nemo [02:31:42] Point.
Christina [02:31:42] Yeah, it's insane.
Nemo [02:31:44] Which I was heavily invested in by. Well, I felt good about it. Therefore, I still remained right. Because that's how we're told the. The truth of things. So I just want to ask, before we kind of move on, are there. What are. I know you talked about Jim Bennett and how the weight of kind of everything is what kind of snapped your shelf, but are there any particular issues, like the polygamy, for example, or anything like that that really stood out to you that you thought were particularly impactful on you?
Christina [02:32:16] Oh, well, just everything. Everything about polygamy just. I thought that was so messed up. Like, even very early, very early on when I was, like, 11, when I learned about polygamy in the temple, I. Yeah, I learned from my dad that, you know, when you're a man and your wife dies, you're able to remarry eternally in the temple. So in the afterlife, you'll have.
Christina [02:32:41] You'll be able to have several lives. And I. When I was 11, I was already, like, that's. That seems really unfair and messed up. But I didn't realize that it, like, kind of stemmed from the past and the history of the church. And when I found out about the specifics of that, and it just. It just really blew my mind how these. These men that I idolized my whole life were actually just really awful people and that there's no way that God could have chosen them if he exists.
Christina [02:33:10] Yeah, it's just. And other than that, also the history of racism in the church, which. Yeah, because I, I found out, I didn't know before going into my faith crisis about the, the race ban and about, you know, that it was lifted in 1978, which I thought was incredibly recent, and I didn't know anything about it, and my dad hadn't told me about it.
Christina [02:33:36] And even though, that, Even though Brigham Young was his favorite president of the church that he had spoken about a few times, but he, like I've talked to him about things that Brigham Young has spoken about and claimed as doctrine, like the, the, the racial teachings and lot atonement, for example, I tried to talk to him about when I was in my faith crisis, and he was like, well, that's the, that's not true. So he didn't know anything about Brigham Young, really.
Nemo [02:34:02] Right.
Christina [02:34:04] So that was, it was just really upsetting to learn all of that and how, how, you know, how I don't know how bigoted the church really is and how they don't really care about anything but themselves as an institution. Like, also with the $100 billion fund and all of that that I think I found out about through your videos, which also really struck a chord with me because, you know, with all that money, you should be helping people. Like, and I just, I felt such, such a drive in me to like, to make the world a better, better place. And I felt like the church wasn't doing that at all. And they weren't as. They weren't as, like, compassionate to others or altruistic as I thought that they, that they were. And that's that also. It's just, just everything that I thought about the church was, was wrong.
Nemo [02:35:10] Now if I throw my apologist hat on.
Christina [02:35:13] Yeah, oh, God.
Nemo [02:35:15] And, oh, you know, or just my, you know, person in the comments yelling Christina and being like, well, I knew about the race ban. I knew that this had happened in 1978. So why didn't you. That's your fault for not knowing. Now, I'm aware that it does come up. It's an official declaration, you know, but just because it's there. I want to ask you about your personal experience, which is all you can really speak to. Do you feel like it was kept from you? Do you feel like it's something you, you were kept away from or you just didn't know by the people, like,
Christina [02:35:49] directly in my environment? I don't know if they specifically try to keep it from me. I just Think that, you know, it's something that's not talked about a lot because it's a difficult and controversial topic. I know. I know that my. When I told my dad about it, he did. He did know that it was a thing. And he. He was the first one that tried to rationalize it because, you know, he used to use. Use the. The, you know, times were different arguments, you know. Yeah. You know, which worked for me for a while, but after that, I was like, well, God is eternal. He should know that it's wrong. You know, this is pretty basic stuff. But what was I saying? What was your question?
Nemo [02:36:31] So I was just asking, do you feel like it was kept from you?
Christina [02:36:34] Oh, yeah, it was.
Nemo [02:36:37] Do you feel like anything was hidden from you beyond the crucible? Ban as well. You can come to that, too.
Christina [02:36:42] Well, I don't know. Like, I don't think any of the people directly in my life were actually trying to keep it from me. I think a lot of them actually didn't know about a lot of the stuff like I did. But I do feel like the church as an institution, try to keep it from. From all of us. So that did feel like a lot like betrayal. Yeah.
Nemo [02:37:01] Okay. So you feel like this stuff had been hidden because. Certainly not advertised to you because, you know, it's in.
Christina [02:37:09] It's not in the manuals. The manuals are things that people, like, everyone teaches from. If it's not in there, then it's not really going to come up. Right. So, for example, Section 132 of Doctrine Covenants. We kind of like, brushed over that in seminary. We didn't really talk about it. I. It was so long, I don't think I bothered to read it the year that we had to.
Christina [02:37:31] And so I. We just didn't realize about any of the polygamy stuff. And if we did talk about it, we kind of put it in the. The sense that. About eternal. Eternal marriage and that it's not about polygamy, because the new covenant means eternal marriage. They were just kind of trying to change what it meant.
Christina [02:37:49] Other than that, I don't think we really talked much about the official declaration, the second one either, in seminary, although it might just be that I just. I don't. I don't remember. But one thing that we did talk about that was one of my first years about the Mountain Meadows massacre.
Christina [02:38:14] I only realized afterwards when I started researching during my faith crisis, like, oh, right, we talked about this before, but we didn't really make a big deal out of it. And we didn't really realize how, like, wrong it was and what really had happened, you know, how the Mormons were at fault and.
Christina [02:38:33] Yeah, just. Just. I don't know. I don't think anything. All right. The craziest thing I remember was a woman in young women's class talking about paying her 10% or feeding her baby, and she chose tithing. Her baby didn't starve in the end, but damn.
Christina [02:38:48] Yeah, no, I took. I took her to church a few times, and she was always, like, creeped out by it, but she thought it was fascinating in, like a. In a weird way.
Nemo [02:38:57] Sorry, that was Christina's best friend.
Christina [02:38:59] My best friend comment up on screen
Nemo [02:39:00] for those that are listening to the
Christina [02:39:01] audience and
Nemo [02:39:05] just showing an example of what seems normal to us as members of the church. But outsider seems mental now.
Christina [02:39:12] She really put it into perspective. Everything. Every time she was at church with me, and I didn't really. Never really wanted to take her, but, you know, when she was sleeping over on Saturday, we'd have to, you know, go on church, go to church on Sunday. You know, it's a logical thing to do.
Christina [02:39:26] But it just. I always started realizing how this sounded to her, like, in her. In her mind. And I was just weirded out by. By everything that the leader said suddenly. Like, stuff like that, for example. Yeah. We had also had a chastity lesson, like an object lesson in young women's once about, you know, that a young woman is like a dollar bill and, you know, if she is sexually intimate with someone, like, outside of marriage, she gets, like, crumpled or, like, torn apart and she loses her value. Like, that was kind of the lesson.
Christina [02:40:04] And I think that was. I was 16 or something, and I heard that, and I was like, yeah, that. That doesn't sound right. Yeah, it's just stuff like that that you. You then forget about after. But it then, like, years later, it comes.
Nemo [02:40:20] Comes back.
Christina [02:40:21] Back. Yeah.
Nemo [02:40:23] And then I suppose in your head, you've got that frame of reference now to come from your best friend who's pointed stuff out. And you come back, you think, oh, no, she had a point.
Christina [02:40:32] Yeah, she had a point. Yeah. I think one time when we were. She. I told her I took her to a steak dance once. And a steak dance is not just a dance. We have, like, activities beforehand. I think we had, like, a Book of Mormon quiz or something, and she was there and she was texting. She was texting someone on her phone. She wasn't really interested, but I saw, like, she texted something like, yeah, I'm attending An activity of a cult or something. That's what she said. And afterwards, I was just really, really mad at her for saying that to her friend and. But, you know, in retrospect, I can understand why she would say that. That makes sense. I'm sorry.
Nemo [02:41:10] No worries. So make sure we're back in the timeline of the. Otherwise John will tell me off. No, no, he won't. He won't. He's lovely. So we're getting back to the timeline where you've kind of told your parents a bit and your dad's trying to justify some of these issues. Is that where we were? Yeah, because you told your best friend and now you're trying to open up to your parents a bit. How's that going?
Family Tensions and Navigating Life After Leaving
Christina [02:41:37] Well, first. First, there was a. There were a lot of arguments, especially, you know, at the dinner table, because after dinner we would have scripture study, you know, and I would bring up some things that I. That I learned about church history.
Christina [02:41:52] And my dad would always say, you know, oh, you don't have. You don't have a source for that. It's. You know, because I never came prepared with. With a website or a document on my phone because. But after a while, I found this thing on the church website about the Partridge sisters, which were sisters that Joseph Smith both married behind Emma's back. And it was all, like, written down. Like, there was a part of Emma about one of the partner sisters diary on the church website. And it was all laid out so clearly, and I was like, I have to show them this because this is, like, definitive proof that, you know, Joseph Smith was a sleazeball, the bad person.
Christina [02:42:32] And so I went. I went to them with this and I told them the story, and I showed them the. The diary entry of. I think it was Eliza. I don't know. I. I can't. Yeah. Remember? Oh, cool.
Christina [02:42:47] And so I showed my parents that, and they were immediately like, no, that's not true. That can't be true. And I was like, but this is literally a diary entry from one of the people, like a firsthand source of a woman that was in this relationship with Joseph Smith. And my dad was like, well, she's too close to the situation. She's biased. She must have something against him. She must be proving, like, trying. Trying to paint him in a bad light or something. Right? And he was completely just. I. I thought it was very irrational of him to react like that to. To a very, you know, reliable.
Christina [02:43:22] Like this. This is a real source of something, you know, that really happened with A real victim involved, like victims, actually. Yeah, it was just. It was really messed up for. For me to hear him say that because he just didn't believe anything that I was saying. And I realized that there's nothing that I could do to change that. You know, there's. There's no source that I could show him because he doesn't want to change his mind. And that's what it comes down to, you know, so there's no. There's no real reason to try anymore.
Christina [02:43:56] And so after that, that was the last thing that, that I ever told them about church history. Because after that I was like, it's a lost copy. There's no point in telling them anything anymore. And, yeah, I think that was. That was. It was before I definitively left, but it was. Yeah, it was really difficult. Yeah.
Nemo [02:44:15] Okay, so you're in a situation now where you've told your best friend, so you've got someone to talk to. But I'm all right in saying, so far, no institute didn't help. Parents haven't provided useful answers as friends at church, you haven't done a whole Bye, Felicia in a thing. You haven't really told them about it. So there's been no kind of grand exit. So who did you reach out to that would understand? Because your best friend obviously isn't Mormon.
Christina [02:44:45] Right.
Nemo [02:44:46] And as supportive and as great as she is, and she's here now watching this, so, you know, she's. She's being really good to you.
Christina [02:44:52] Yeah, I love her. Yeah.
Nemo [02:44:53] There's this feeling sometimes where you're like, but I need to about talk. Talk to someone who gets it, someone who went through it, or someone that gets all this mental lingo, all this wacky stuff.
Christina [02:45:03] Yeah.
Nemo [02:45:04] Who were those people for you?
Christina [02:45:06] Well, first of all, I kept being on Reddit, but now I went more to the R ex Mormon side. I actually didn't have the courage to go on R ex Mormon before I definitively said, like, I don't believe in this anymore. Right. Because I used to, you know, it's. I don't know, it's. From the outside, it's really intimidating. Subreddit because, you know, from. From the believing subreddits, you get the idea that they're very anti and just not. Not rational, just mean and angry all the time. But in reality, they're just, you know, they're people just, just like me who figured this stuff out. And, you know, they have some right to.
Christina [02:45:43] To be angry, but mostly they're just being rational people. Right. Um, so I went on there and I. And I found people to talk to, and I posted about some things that. That had bothered me about my. My transition, about my story, stuff like that. Other than that, other than being on forums, I. I decided to start a podcast.
Christina [02:46:10] Yeah, that was actually. Yeah, that was a month. That was a month before I definitively decided to leave. Okay. So the first few episodes were still me being in a really difficult position, but trying. Trying to believe. And once I made, like, an episode about Joseph Smith's polygamy, that is when I was like, yeah, I'm done.
Christina [02:46:31] Right. So it's just, you can see kind of my. My. My faith transition throughout that podcast, which makes it kind of interesting to listen to from an outside perspective.
Nemo [02:46:39] I feel like, stick it in the show notes. Yeah, people should go have a listen to that.
Christina [02:46:44] Yeah. But so I created that podcast. It's called Latter Day Ramblings. Yeah. I don't just. It's the first name that I could come up with, and it sounds kind of. It's. It sounds like a. Like a Mormon name, I feel like, because. But just in trap.
Nemo [02:47:00] Just get them.
Christina [02:47:03] Yeah, definitely. So I created that as, like, I just. I needed someone. I needed someone to talk to, and I needed to express my feelings in some way. And since I'd been listening to so many, you know, ex Mormon podcasts, I was like, well, I can do something. I can do something similar, but from, you know, my perspective. And I feel like in the ex Mormon sphere, like, blogosphere, I feel like I provide a unique perspective as, you know, a young woman in Europe, I feel like. I don't know.
Christina [02:47:37] But so I started that, and I kind of started talking about several things that. That bothered me just to get them off my chest. And I didn't really expect anyone to listen to them, and not many people did, to be honest. My audience is still very small. But that's not the reason that I do it because it's just. It really helps me to. To process my feelings. And. Yeah, it's really helped me mentally to figure out who I am. And after all of this. Yeah.
Nemo [02:48:09] And I mean, you have one fan, because I. I thought it was brilliant.
Christina [02:48:14] Yeah. So thank you.
Nemo [02:48:16] You know, I. I'm a fan of your podcast. I thought it was. It was great. And so it's one of the ways in which I kind of came across you through Reddit, and I think you responded to something earlier. I was like, who's this? Beside having a look. But, yeah, you're right. It's a very candid look into the beginnings of a faith crisis. And like you said, it is those ramblings that a lot of people do need to just get out and get. And, and we do have that need to vent and to process and to speak it out loud. And the fact that you're willing to do that publicly for the benefit of potential others that came across it, I think is really commendable.
Christina [02:48:55] That's another reason that I, that I did it because I knew there must be other youths that are struggling with this. And I just, I want to find a way to help them because it's really difficult to go through what I did because I know after that I joined this Discord server of ex Mormon teenagers and their, their situations are all just the, they're all so, so painful to hear about because some people have been out since they were a lot younger than I, I am, and they're still, you know, in the closet, so to speak, and they've been lying about who they are for years and it's just so, so, so painful.
Christina [02:49:32] And some others that I know have been actually kicked out of their house. And it's just all these, all these stories and I just, I just wanted to do whatever I could to maybe make it a little better. Even though there's, there's not a lot that I can do. Really. It's, yeah, it's, it's awful.
Nemo [02:49:50] But you can help form that community for, for people. I mean, all the cool kids are on Discord. That's what I hear. I'm not one of those cool kids. I'm not on Discord, but I'm aware of what it is. And it's, it's another great platform where kind of people can, can get together and have that. Sound really old, didn't I? A little bit.
Christina [02:50:11] No, it's okay. Social media goes really fast.
Nemo [02:50:14] I've only just got on Tick Tock.
Christina [02:50:16] Well, I haven't got on TikTok years after.
Nemo [02:50:18] It was a cool thing. So it's really good though that you have these communities and there are these communities out there and, you know, your maturity shines through and I forget that you are still part of that teenage demographic and technically you are technically part of that group. So the fact that they have some, someone both speaking out and they have that community, you know, I'd want that community to thrive and do well, and I think it should. And I'm glad that in a sense, I'm glad that LDS teenagers have got their own subreddit. I think it's going to be a group that grows, particularly in the coming years. I think it's a group that has their own sort of individual needs for support and I'm really glad that, that you're part of that group and able to help those people. I think that's really cool.
Christina [02:51:04] Yeah. Yeah. I hope I can do more in the future. Yeah.
What Young Leavers Need and Advice for Others
Nemo [02:51:07] So what else would you say about, about that group, about those experiences of people in your sort of age group going through this faith crisis? What do you think they need particularly?
Christina [02:51:19] What do I think they need? Well, I, I know from all of them that just the community of like minded people and people who've been through the same thing thing just really helps you to, to get through that situation because they make you feel like you're not crazy. And that's like one of the main things that is impacting your mental health because everyone around you believes in this and you're the only one who just is not able to. And you know, it just helps relieve the, the relief, the pain of the experience. Other than that, you know, since, you know, teenagers are, are minors, there's not much that, that you can do because their parents are still in control of their lives and there's still the authority figures in their lives. And yeah, as, yeah, as the commenter says, we need chill parents.
Nemo [02:52:10] Yeah. Harrison also says we need chill parents. I feel like each of those full stops is a, it's like a hand clap 100.
Christina [02:52:19] Yeah. We need parents who actually respect their children in the identity that they choose for themselves.
Nemo [02:52:25] Yeah.
Christina [02:52:25] But you know, in Mormonism it's not as, you know, as prevalent. There's still a lot of, you know, hierarchy, of course, maybe because of the, the priesthood dynamic, but yeah, it's just really difficult and I, I wish I could do, I could do more for them.
Nemo [02:52:45] Yeah, well, we'll keep, you know, the, as a, as a group, I don't like speaking for the ex Mormon community because I feel, yeah. Such a diverse group. But to those that can hear this and are listening to this, support ex Mormon teenagers, you know, in whatever way you can and, and support each other generally. But you know, there is a, there's a vulnerable group of minors essentially who are coming out of a, they're coming out of a high demand religion and they're, they're in need of something. So if we can help them, particularly as kind of a particularly vulnerable group, we could say that, I think that would be really good.
Christina [02:53:28] Yes, definitely.
Nemo [02:53:30] Right. I think the final part of all this now because, you know, we've gone through 18 years of your life, we've arrived at today.
Christina [02:53:39] Yeah.
Nemo [02:53:39] Oh, how are things for you now? What. What is. What is your experience now, your relationships now, etc.
Christina [02:53:47] Well, so I'm my first year of university now. I am, for the most part, independent. I don't live my parents anymore. I live with my grandma, like, kind of in the top floor of her house, so it's kind of my own little apartment.
Nemo [02:54:03] Awesome.
Christina [02:54:04] Which is nice. With my cousin as well. And so I feel like I have more control over my own life and my own decisions, which is. Which is great. And I feel a lot. A lot happier now that I just can choose who I am, what I want to do and be. Yeah.
Nemo [02:54:25] And so your relationship with your parents now out of the home?
Christina [02:54:31] I. I try to go home, like, every. Every two weeks. I still love being with my siblings. I love them a lot. And, you know, at the beginning, after. After I left and started, you know, living here and going back on the weekends, it was really difficult. There was still a lot of tension, but that started kind of dissipating after a while, and we both kind of stopped arguing and accepted that the situation is the way it is and we can't change each other. Not that I personally didn't want to change my parents necessarily. I just wanted them to understand me and, like, why I made the decision that I did.
Christina [02:55:11] And I feel like they understand me better now. So I've gotten somewhere, and they kind of have stopped trying to convert me back, which they really wanted to do in the beginning. And at the beginning, they were also very, very sad and going through the stages of grief, because, of course, as a Mormon parent, you feel like you lost a child and, you know, your eternal family won't be complete. And that, of course, that hurts in your worldview, and I do understand that. And I didn't know how to, you know, how to navigate that necessarily, because it's such a big. It's such a big thing. And I don't know how they. How they think about that now, but we've gotten a lot more respectful around each other.
Nemo [02:55:56] That's good.
Christina [02:55:57] And there's not many fights anymore, and we just. We just try to keep it chill, like. Like he said. So it's better. Yeah. And the distance also helps.
Nemo [02:56:10] I can imagine. Imagine the distance being on top of someone, like, especially during COVID going through a faith crisis. My poor mother. My wife and I were living with my mother at the time. She could not escape it. Right.
Christina [02:56:25] Yeah. Yeah.
Nemo [02:56:26] So that space and distance really Helps. I'm wondering if you have any advice for talking about how we can help exmo teenagers. Do you have any advice for exmo teenagers about how to have these conversations with their parents? Anything you maybe wish you'd done differently that you feel like you could pass on as, as some advice?
Reflections, Relationships, and Moving Forward
Christina [02:56:47] Well, my first instinct was, was to argue with them. Don't do that. Even though you think you know you're right. There's no way to convince someone who doesn't want to change their mind. And so I think it's better to speak with them about your personal experience because there's not really any way that they can, they can argue with that because that's just how you experience things. Unless they start gaslighting you with it, which is also a possibility. And it's a whole, whole different thing that to navigate that also sucks. But mostly try to speak from your own, from your heart and from your feelings and your, your identity and try to appeal to them emotionally and get them to understand you on an emotional level. I think that's, that's the best that you can do. I don't really know anything else that you could do unless you have an idea.
Nemo [02:57:42] I. No, no, because I went about it all the wrong way.
Christina [02:57:47] Yeah, no, it's.
Nemo [02:57:49] And I'm not self reflective enough to have worked out just how I got it wrong. So I can share what not to do. All I can really say is don't be like me, don't be like me, don't be like me. That's my takeaway from all this because I mean, most solid advice.
Christina [02:58:05] Yeah, most of, most of people's parents, you know, love them a lot. So you know, you're still, still try to be family as far as that is, as far as that is possible. Of course there's some things that parents do, you know, abusive behavior that you don't have to tolerate. Of course. And there's, there's a line to be drawn that you can, you can decide for yourself whether it's healthy to, you know, still have a relationship with your parents or not or what kind of relationship that you want to have once you become independent. You know, it's, it's a difficult, it's a difficult issue. But I think as long as you both still love each other, you can find a way to somehow make it work if you both try to understand where you're coming from. But it's just, I don't know, it doesn't work in every case, obviously.
Nemo [02:58:55] Yeah, that's fair. And we can't really provide advice that will work in every case. But, yeah, I think it's good that you can share that experience with people. So thank you for that. So other relationships, other. Other things, like, for example, old church friends and things like that.
Christina [02:59:13] By the way, one thing I haven't shared about my relationship with my parents. They don't know that I'm doing this. They don't know anything about the this, and they don't know about my podcast. They don't know about this interview. I haven't told them.
Nemo [02:59:27] Right.
Christina [02:59:27] About any of it. And I hope that if they ever find this, that this comes across as, you know, compassionate and respectful, because that's what I'm trying to be. And I guess. I guess a preemptive. I'm sorry, but, you know, this is. This is it. This is what I'm doing. This is who I am. That is it. Yeah.
Nemo [02:59:55] There you go. And Christina's parents, you should be very proud of her. She's done an amazing job telling us all about her experience.
Christina [03:00:02] I've tried.
Nemo [03:00:03] Yeah, you've done a great job. And I'm really grateful that you've. You've come on here despite the fact that, you know, your parents don't know about this and, yeah, he's just gone for it. And you've been brave.
Christina [03:00:16] Yeah, I was really scared beforehand.
Nemo [03:00:19] Yeah, but you've done. You've done brilliantly.
Christina [03:00:21] This is good. Yeah.
Nemo [03:00:22] Really. So tell me. Tell me a little bit about any sort of old church relationships. Anything now that you, you know, people that you've managed to. To keep a hold of, or is it all just kind of.
Christina [03:00:35] It's all. It's all kind of gone. I don't really talk to anyone from church anymore. I mean, there might be, like, the odd group chat that I'm still in, and people might send a few things in there, but it's not really, you know, a friendship or something that. That is going on. Yeah.
Nemo [03:00:56] Okay.
Christina [03:00:57] So.
Nemo [03:00:57] No, so your people are now. Are now in the online forums and your best friend.
Christina [03:01:05] New friends do all this. Yeah, New friends that I've made in real life at my university and all of that. Yeah.
Nemo [03:01:12] So you're feeling like you can move forward, which is excellent.
Christina [03:01:15] Yes. But the weird thing is, you know, it's. It's still kind of difficult once people start asking about your background. I have to go into this whole spiel about. About Mormonism, and it's just. Yeah, it's also. I mean, it's always kind of difficult to, like, I don't know how to. How to bring it to people. I don't know how to. How to tell people about it necessarily. Necessarily, because it's just. It's something that's kind of behind me, but it still has a lot of influence on the person that I've become.
Nemo [03:01:41] Well, that's something we should talk about. Like, how you've just.
Christina [03:01:46] Yeah, you put this on yourself.
Nemo [03:01:47] So how. How do you. What have you said to people in terms of how. How you've explained?
Christina [03:01:55] Oh, well, it's. Well, sometimes, like, if I have the. The time. And most people, once they, like, once they hear, like, oh, well, I was raised Mormon, and once I tell them what Mormonism really is, they start becoming fascinated by it, and they give me all the time to, like, explain it. So over time and over, like, several conversations, I've kind of gotten the hang of how to tell people about it.
Christina [03:02:21] It's just something that people find really interesting, fascinating to hear about. It's. It's not something that's common in the Netherlands, obviously, because the church is so small here that it's so statistically unlikely that I'd be raised in it.
Christina [03:02:36] But. Yeah, and then when I tell my story about it, they just think that, you know, you've been really brave and, you know, they really admire me for the journey that I've been on. And it gives me a lot of validation, actually, to. To talk about it now, especially also this interview. Actually, it's. Yeah, it's really nice to be here. Thank you.
Nemo [03:02:57] No worries. When people ask now, you can just send them a URL and be like, you want to know? There you go. Here's my interview. Oh, God, just send them this way.
Christina [03:03:06] Yeah. No, well, because usually I have to take them. I have to tell them more specifics about, you know, what the Church is like. But, yeah, this interview is a good reference point. I feel like.
Nemo [03:03:16] Yeah, yeah, you say, yeah, I know my mom's story. Here you go. All right, well, thank you very much, Christina. Unless there's anything burning that you, you know, you think I've missed, that I've glossed over.
Christina [03:03:31] No, I think that's pretty much. I think that's pretty much it. I can't really think of anything else. Yeah, this has been amazing, honestly. Thank you so much.
Nemo [03:03:41] Yeah, no, it's been my pleasure. Really grateful that you've joined us. I'll say a huge thank you, Val, to Christina, for her time here.
Christina [03:03:53] Yes.
Nemo [03:03:54] And a thank you to all of you who have been watching Shameless plugging Time Mormon Stories. Does Take donations. We are donor funded. It allows brilliant conversations like this to happen. So if you can consider being a monthly donor, please do. If you want to find out what Christina's up to, go check out. It'll be in the show notes, her podcast. Go listen to her faith crisis happen live.
Christina [03:04:24] Yeah, I don't update, I don't upload episodes as often anymore. Maybe once a month. But there's still. There's a lot of content that you can go through for sure. Yeah.
Nemo [03:04:34] If you want like the behind the scenes of what you're watching now. That's Christina's podcast, right? So go check it out. The Making of will be there. Go check that out. I'm allowed to shamelessly self plug my own channel, Nemo the Mormon. If you want to go see what Christina found when she came across my channel during her faith crisis, go check that out.
Christina [03:04:55] Yeah, definitely.
Nemo [03:04:56] All you European exmos out there, if you have a story to tell, please come and tell tell it. If you want to bring someone with you to translate into English so we can have a conversation, please do. I'm happy to work through a translator. That would be brilliant and I don't know what else to say, but thank you very much Christina for being here. Oh, hang on, I do have something to mention.
Christina [03:05:20] Oh, okay.
Nemo [03:05:21] Thrive. There is a Thrive going on in the UK next week I believe it is. So Thrive is a our events for people who have left Mormonism who want to find community, who want to find the sort of community that Christina's been looking for and that she has found online. If you want to try and find it in person as well, Thrive is a great place to do that. I because I love Europe so much, I'm also putting on thrive.de the German thrive. So I'm putting on a Thrive for German exmos that's going to be in June. More detail details for that will follow. I am gonna also, I'm sure at some point come out the Netherlands and try and do Thrive Nl try and do something.
Christina [03:06:02] Let's see how many people show up.
Nemo [03:06:04] I. I'll do it for two of you, right? Because it doesn't matter how many people turn up. It would be awesome. So all your support is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much Christina for coming on. Make sure you hit the subscribe button like this video. Tell your friends and we'll see you next time. Have a great one.
Christina [03:06:23] Bye bye.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Join our new European Producer Nemo the Mormon as he interviews Christina, who left the Mormon Church as a Youth in The Netherlands.
Christina will share with us how an encounter with Dieter F. Uchtdorf planted the seed of her faith transition, what the state of the LDS church in The Netherlands is, and share the LDS experience from a Dutch perspective!
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One Response
It is too bad to hear that the youth leader misapplied the object lesson, or it was at least misunderstood. I have seen a crumpled twenty dollar bill used to show that no matter what happens to the bill, it still retains all of its value.