John Dehlin

Welcome and Episode Introduction

[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 26, 2021 and I am in a super good mood today, partly because I am caffeinated, but not in the way that you think. This is a happy occasion. I am super excited for today's episode. Today's episode is something that to me represents the culmination of 20 years of work.

[00:00:29] And it's a celebration of sorts, but it's a measured celebration, it's a cautious celebration because, you know, we still have a long way to go. And anytime that we do an episode where we are celebrating some positive steps within the Mormon experience, there are also going to be people that are triggered by that because they're going through the really painful parts or they have trauma related to Mormonism. And when you're in that space of anger and sadness and frustration, you don't want to hear ever anything good, only just want to hear burn it all the F down. And I just want to begin by acknowledging those of you who are in a space where you don't want to hear anything positive.

[00:01:10] This is a positive trigger warning. You may be triggered by positivity today. And if you are, practice self care, which can mean shut this off, pause it, don't listen to it, come back later because we are going to be talking about some positive things related to Mormonism, but it's really important stuff. So welcome. And by the way, we have two episodes today, one this afternoon that's just going to be mind blowing. And this morning, so. So this morning the topic is the April 2021 Liahona, which for those of you who have left the Mormon Church or have not been keeping up with it or just aren't paying attention as active believing Mormons, the ensign, as I understand it, is pretty much no more.

The April 2021 Liahona Articles Overview

[00:01:52] At some point in one of the flurry of announcements by Russell M. Nelson, the president of the corporation of the church Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, he made an announcement that the Enzyme is going away as a brand and the new global church magazine, as I understand it, they had an Ensign for the US and for English speaking people and then a Liahona for the rest of the world that would be translated into lots of languages. And I guess the idea was messages that needed to be sent outside of the English speaking world were slightly different than the messages or significantly different than the messages that needed to be sent inside the Mormon world.

[00:02:28] And so they have always had two magazines and those of us who served like in Latin America for Example, we wouldn't get the Ensign, we would get the Liajona in Spanish. And I'm pretty sure that same magazine was translated into all the different languages and sent throughout the world. Well, at some point in the flurry of Russell M. Nelson's multiple changes revelations, however you prefer to call it, as I understand it, the Ensign name was fizzled out, the magazines were kind of merged, and now there's just one magazine for the entire world called the Liahona. My listeners can correct me if I'm wrong, but now that they apparently, if I understand it right, have merged the magazines, we have just a Liahona.

[00:03:06] And in the April 2021 edition of the Liahona magazine, there are six, count them, six articles that are focused on helping believing Mormons navigate mixed faith relationships. Families, friends, spouses, whatever, now, already immediately, this announcement merits a huge asterisk because they did not put any of these articles in the printed version of the Liahona, as I understand it.

[00:03:43] So these are all web only articles. So for those who want to totally celebrate the fact that the Church is really trying to protect and save families in a significant way, I intentionally entitled this episode Baby Steps by the Mormon Church to Help Protect and Preserve and Strengthen Mixed Faith Families because they did not go the full, you know, enchilada and release these in the printed magazine. Now, of course I have theories as to why and we'll talk about that, but that's why this isn't more exuberant than it's going to be. It's a huge disappointment that they are just releasing them online. Having said that, in the April 2021 version of the Liahona, there are six articles that are intended to help preserve and protect mixed faith marriages.

[00:04:29] And they're all to young adults, which is interesting. And there are links to all six of these articles, either in the Liahona churchofjesuschrist.org study Liahona 202104 or you can go to mormonstories.org to the post for this episode and see the links. Are you the only member of the Church in your family? You're not alone. That's the article number one. The second is an unexpected lesson from Ammon for today's challenges. The third is how my heart changed when my brother left the church. Four is maintaining hope and keeping your marriage strong if your spouse leaves the church. Five is questions to ask yourself before you talk about less active members.

[00:05:09] And six is what you can do when others don't believe these are significant. And before I jump into today's episode, I want to tell you all why I believe you know, why I'm doing this episode and why I think that these are super significant.

Why These Articles Matter Personally

[00:05:27] So the first thing I want to do is tell you why this episode might be interesting to you. The purpose of this episode is I have a personal debt of gratitude to Jeffrey R. Holland that I want to express.

[00:05:38] It's measured, but it's there. So there's a personal motive to this and there's a personal commitment I have to positivity and, and to being balanced on Mormon Stories podcast. And it's always a struggle, but I'm trying. There is also a main, the main motive that I have for you is that I believe that these articles can be used to, number one, help make your life as a liberal or progressive or post Mormon or ex Mormon, to help you make your life better. To help you use these articles to encourage and even compel your family members, your spouse, your parents, your siblings, your children, your friends, whoever it is that might be mistreating you because you lost your faith or left the church.

[00:06:22] These articles are gold. They're like missiles to promote healthy, kind behavior on the part of your believing family and friends. And they should be used as such. And I mean missiles of love, right? Missiles of healing, missiles of understanding. And that's probably, I should use a different term, maybe band aids or, you know, medicine. Okay, use these as medicine. Use these articles as medicine to heal broken relationships or potentially breaking relationships with believing Mormons, family and friends.

[00:07:00] Or if you're on the precipice of having a faith, of coming out as having had a faith crisis and you're really terrified for how your parents or your spouse or your friends or family are going to treat you.

[00:07:14] These articles are like Kryptonite, to protect you with reasonable people from being abused and mistreated as someone who is losing or has lost their faith. But it goes even further. These articles can be used and should be used to help others understand where you are and help them learn all the things that you have learned and awaken to the realities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 2021, all of its history, its social problems. Like, trust me, I'm not. Do I have another episode this afternoon? I have. This is like my fourth episode this week. I am not just like trying to think of content to create.

[00:08:08] This content is important and so I want to ask all of you to please share this podcast with whoever you can, believers and not because this, this, this has the potential to transform the church, these articles. And I'm going to make that case for you today.

[00:08:24] And it, and, and it's important. So that's why we're doing this episode today. We're going to be celebrating these, these articles. We're going to be critiquing these articles and we're going to be analyzing them and teaching you how you can use them to heal your family, to heal your marriage, to prevent your families or friendships from being destroyed by Mormonism, by orthodox Mormonism.

[00:08:51] I hope I made my point. We also are going to have a special feature. I'm going to be reading to you some background story related to the creation of these essays from none other than the amazing Alan Mount of Marriage on a Tightrope. Alan is of course Katie Mount's partner. And you know, Marriage on a Tightrope is the best resource in the world for navigating a mixed faith marriage.

[00:09:18] There are other great resources as well, including the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast that Natasha Helfer Parker and I do. I can't recommend that enough. If you want support in your faith crisis, in your family relationships, teaching your kids after a faith crisis, keeping your marriage strong after a faith Crisis, go to mormonfaithcrisis.com There's 70 plus hours of free coaching and content from me, Natasha and Margi Dehlin that is just for navigating you through every step of a Mormon faith crisis, including dealing with family and in mixed faith marriages. But marriageontatightrope.com or.org, whatever it is, it's brilliant. Check it out. We're going to be reading to you a really important statement today from Alan Mount.

[00:09:59] And and again, I want to welcome all of our listeners who are joining us. We have a large audience that I hope that it just grows over the next couple hours. First, I want to start with a story because this is a story that's very personal to me and it's a story that I've shared, I think previously privately and sometimes maybe on the podcast. But I'm going to share it again and I hope you guys will enjoy this story. And this is 100% true as far as my memory holds.

Mormon Stories History and Personal Background

[00:10:29] So there was a time early in my PhD, probably 10 years into Mormon Stories Podcast, Lifestyle Life cycle, where my brother Joel, who I love, was working for the church at the highest levels of the church. He was literally chief information officer of the Mormon Church while I was doing Mormon Stories podcast, which meant that he reported directly to, you know, was it Bishop Burton, the presiding Bishop I don't know who he reported to, but he met regularly with the Quorum of the twelve and with the First Presidency. He was on a first name basis and probably still is with with all of the, you know, members of the quorum of the 12.

[00:11:10] He's got personal relationships with all of them. And for seven years, my brother Joel ushered help usher in the Mormon Church kind of into the Internet age. And so when you think about the church getting onto Twitter, getting onto Facebook, getting onto Instagram, renovating its websites, getting into the world of social media, handheld devices, and just all that that entails apostles blogging, apostles tweeting. It was my brother who was brought on from Microsoft to help the church make that transition. And he did a phenomenal job and he was amazing. Anyway, this was during a time where I was really just thick into my faith crisis.

[00:11:55] So if you're thinking about 10 years ago, you know, if we're talking 2011, 2012, 2013, you know, these are really, really. And it actually starts before we're talking 2008, 2009. This is right when I was in the thick of it, wondering if there's a God, wondering if Jesus exists. Having lost my faith back in 2001, and Mormon stories wasn't just a service project for me. Mormon Stories was also a desire to try and stay in the church and also to try and make sense of it all.

[00:12:28] And frankly, to try and heal and grow and prevent a lot of depression and sadness on my part. So as my brother got to know lots of the apostles, he got to know Jeffrey R. Holland. And I actually have a background with Jeffrey R. Holland. And the background is as follows. When I was at BYU in 1987, 1988, Jeffrey R. Holland was president of BYU.

[00:12:53] And just ironically, his daughter Mary Holland was in my ward. So I was in Chipman hall at BYU in the Honors Dorm. Budge hall and Fugle hall were kind of the sister air quotes, the sister dorms to Chipman Hall. And so Mary Holland was in our ward, and I got to know Mary, Elder Holland's daughter. We actually did go out a few times. Not in any super serious way, but in a fun way. I got to know her. She loves Billy Joel. She's super down to earth and smart. She would teach kind of edgy, you know, gospel doctrine classes in her student ward. And I really liked her.

[00:13:35] I'll admit it. At the time, I. I really fell for Mary Holland. And you know, because I. Because I got to know Mary, I got to know Jeff and Pat or Elder Holland. And Patricia Holland, I don't think he had been made an apostle yet at this time, back in 87, 88, maybe he had, but.

[00:13:54] But regardless, I got to know him a bit. I even played tennis with them once. Just me and Elder Holland, mano a mano in the, the tennis courts near the presidential house that he lived at at byu. And eventually I also took a Book of Mormon class from, from Elder Holland.

[00:14:10] And you know, he was just a major influence in my life. So I did have kind of this background with the Holland family. Also. Matt Holland was a fellow teaching assistant at byu. We were both American Heritage teaching assistants. And so my brother and me and Matt Holland all taught American Heritage together. So I got to know Matt a little bit and actually interviewed to work at Monitor, which was this management consulting firm that Matt Holland had gone to in Boston that I interviewed for before. I ended up at a job at Bain.

[00:14:39] So I have a background with the Holland family. My brother is at church headquarters, I'm doing Mormon Stories podcast. And my brother becomes friends with Elder Holland. And just out of the kindness I think of my brother and out of Elder Holland, I'm invited to have lunch with Elder Holland and my brother.

[00:14:59] And I'm not going to talk about our first lunch today. I've talked about it before, but we had a first lunch and, and then I just want to say my memory is 6 to 12 months after our first lunch, we have a second lunch and.

[00:15:15] And I'm going to talk about the second lunch today. So in the second lunch, you know, we're up at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building on the top floor in this reserved. It's an entire restaurant that was reserved and it was just me and Elder Holland and my brother. No one else was in there. It was right across the the way from the outside atrium restaurant at the top of the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. I forget what it's called, the room or something, but it almost felt a little bit Mafia esque to just be in this entire restaurant that was shut down just for me and my brother.

[00:15:47] But it was really generous of Elder Holland to meet with me and to care about, you know, me and to try and reach out to me. And I sense that his intentions were. There was a lot of purity and sincerity in it. And like the very first conversation, Elder Holland talked a lot. He's a smart guy, he's a caring guy, he's a funny guy. But you know, at the end, I had one question for Elder Holland at the end of our second lunch. This is separate from our first lunch. And at the end of our second lunch, I said, Elder Holland, Elder Holland, I have one question for you today, and this one's really important.

[00:16:27] I said, I've been doing Mormon stories for 10 years. I'm, you know, I'm planning. I was either planning to pursue a PhD or I was pursuing a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. And I said, the reason why, you know, I'm coming today, thank you for meeting with me, is because I am distressed by all the families that are being destroyed, you know, within a Mormon context.

[00:16:49] Every single day, people are reaching out to me and saying, my wife or my husband wants to leave me. They want to take the kids away from me because I lost my faith. My parents are disowning me. My siblings won't talk to me.

[00:17:02] My children are wanting to disown me as a parent or a grandparent. They want to take me away from access, from my grandkids. Like families were being torn apart. But at the time, I was most concerned about all the divorces, all the people who were being divorced by faithful Mormons because they were losing their faith.

[00:17:22] And so I, I said to Elder Holland, I said, elder Holland, you know, there are a lot of enemies of the Church, and if you want to get rid of enemies in the church and if you want to do the right thing, and these, this, this is not word for word what I said, but this is my memory of, of, you know, the gist of what I said. I said the best thing you could do is give some type of talk in General Conference where, where you tell, believing, you know, spouses that simply losing your faith is not grounds for divorce, for breaking up the family.

[00:18:04] Because the Mormon Church is literally destroying families, likely unintentionally. And what we need is an apostle to give a talk at General Conference to just make this very clear so that the Church doesn't ruin families. And if you don't ruin families, Elder Holland, number one, you'll make less enemies. But number two, you'll be doing the right thing. You'll be saving families. And isn't the Church all about families?

[00:18:30] And I'll. I'll never forget, you know, his response. His response was, number one, it was almost like. It was almost like reactionary. It was like, we don't tell what people to do, you know, in a bad marriage. It was like, that's not what we do. And what, what, what came across my mind is it was kind of like a legal defense. Like, as soon as bishops are saying, you know, stay married or, or get or divorce.

[00:18:57] My guess is that would incur a lot of legal liability on the church if, you know, if and when things go sour. It's also unethical to, to tell people what they should do. You know, as a trained therapist, you know, I was trained as a therapist and certainly that would be unethical as well.

[00:19:19] So, you know, and it's also a personal decision whether you stay or you don't. And of course, if there's abuse, it even becomes more problematic. Now of course I knew that there are plenty of bishops to stake presidents that do tell people to leave their spouses if they lose their faith or to stay with them even though there's abuse. Like, I knew that, but I wasn't going to argue with Elder Holland, but he was very defensive and reactionary. He was like, we don't tell people what to do in their marriages, you know. And I'm like, okay, I understand that, Elder Holland, but families are being torn apart.

[00:19:51] Something needs to happen. And, and I said, I think a general conference talk would really do the trick. And again, I'll never forget his response. He said, someday, maybe someday. And this is when Boyd K. Packer was still alive. So I think I was reading the tea leaves for what he was saying.

[00:20:12] He said, someday when the church is more mature, I think we'll be able to give a General Conference talk like that. But, but for now we're probably not at that point. And I think what he meant is when some of the older members of the quorum of the 12 die off, when the church membership is a little more mature, that, that a talk like that would be able to be given. But he made it very clear to me that, he made it very clear to me that, that the church wasn't ready for really, really speaking out in favor of non believing spouses, which, you know, my heart sunk when he said that because I'm thinking like, really, like you're going to be political, you're going to, you know, you're going to like, you're going to like finesse doing the right thing and avoid doing the right thing for fear of the consequences.

[00:21:10] Like that's the opposite of what I was taught as a Mormon. And you're, you know, you're not going to put families first. Like, I was really disturbed by that answer and so I pushed back again. I said, Elder Holland, we've got to do something.

[00:21:25] These families are being torn apart. That should be a big enough problem. But you are creating enemies everywhere. Like once somebody is spouse leaves them and takes the kids and alienates their kids from this non believing spouse and the family's broken up. You have created an enemy for life. And I don't, I don't think that's in your best interest. So this is what Elder Holland said. He said, all right, all right, John, here's what you do.

[00:21:50] What I want you to do is I want to give you my permission to tell people this. You can tell people the following. Tell people that I, John Dehlin, have had the good fortune of traversing the halls of church headquarters.

[00:22:06] And from the conversations that I've had with unnamed people, I've gleaned that. And then he said, after you, if you can couch it like that, then I give you permission to say whatever you want. And you could, you can tell people exactly what, what you think they need to be told.

[00:22:25] And I was just like, Elder Holland, like, that is not, you know, some random podcaster saying, I've traversed the halls of church headquarters. And from the many conversations I've had, I've gleaned that a believing spouse shouldn't leave their non believing spouse and break up the marriage. Like, that's not going to have the impact we're talking about here, you know, and he's just like, you know, well, you know, that's the best I can offer you right now.

[00:22:52] So I left that second meeting with Elder Holland kind of really dejected. One, I was disappointed that he was. I mean, I understand on a level that this is a political job. I understand that, you know, that he's, he was a, probably still a junior apostle at this point. Boyd K. Packer ruled with an iron fist. That he, his power is limited. He. And if you cross the Brethren, you know, you sit lower in the hierarchy, you get the chocolates last out of the chocolate box. It gets passed around by seniority. You cross the guys ahead of you, you get kicked off the committees, you get, you know, taken away from the certain projects, like Dieter Uchtdorf.

[00:23:30] You get demoted from the first presidency. Like, you know, I understand that his power is limited, that he has to manage his capital appropriately. I don't fault him for that. And the purpose of me telling this story isn't to say he's a coward, isn't to say he was wimpy. It's not to degrade his character. I believe that he is a good man who is from the inside trying to make things better. I really do believe that. And he has a really hard job. And if any of those guys are too friendly to progressives, too friendly to People who leave the church, they get smacked. They get smacked.

[00:24:09] Just ask Dieter Uchtdorf. And so they have to manage their capital carefully. So the purpose of this episode is not to demean or criticize Elder Holland. It is to say, I was super disappointed that he gave that answer. But I believe he's a pretty smart guy who's read a lot of books and a lot of good books and a lot of smart books. He went to a pretty good school. And I believe he has a big heart, and I believe he cares about families. I know that. I'm sure of that now. Of course, I lost my connections with Elder Holland because of the whole Neal A.

[00:24:47] Maxwell Institute Daniel Peterson debacle. I invoked Jeffrey Holland's name in that to help Daniel Peterson get removed from the Maxwell Institute, which I think probably ruined my relationship with Jeffrey R. Holland because we never met again. And he stopped. He did respond to my email about the Greg. The Greg Smith hit piece on me and the Daniel Peterson Lou Midgley hit piece he did. He was instrumental in getting Daniel Peterson removed from the Maxwell Institute. But because I brought him into all that and, you know, I let it be known, I think he never trusted me again. And that's. Maybe I mishandled that. I don't know.

[00:25:26] Anyway, I've lost contact with Elder Holland, but I have always hoped and I've always believed that Elder Holland took my suggestions to heart. And for all these years, as the church has become more mature, as Elder Boyd K. Packer died, as he's risen in seniority, now he's a senior apostle. He's actually, I think, third in line to become prophet.

[00:25:50] I believe that. I hope that he's been working behind the scenes that he listened to be, and he's been doing what he can. Regardless. The reason why I tell that whole story is because I believe that this, these six articles represent the beginnings of the type of fruit that I've been fighting for, for 20 years.

[00:26:15] And not just me, you know, all the people. Sunstone Dialogue, Mormon History association, you know, John Larsen, Bill Real, Radio Free Mormon, Natasha Helfer Parker, Julie d' Azevedo Hanks, Jennifer Finlayson Fife, Janice Bengler. Just pick, you know, just pick whoever you want. Jonathan Streeter. Like, if there's one thing that's effed up on the planet, it's that. It's that any Christian church, and especially the Mormon Church that claims to be primarily about families, has been destroying families for decades and decades and decades. And I don't just mean 10 families or a dozen families, hundreds or thousands of families a year have been torn apart by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints over faith crisis issues, LGBTQ issues, race issues, feminism issues, and intellectual, historical, cultural issues.

[00:27:15] And the Mormon Church, if it's going to do anything, it needs to stop doing harm and destroying families. And because I've been wanting this, and because I've been fighting for this along with all these other amazing people, I would be a jerk if I did not positively recognize the progress. And I believe that these essays are progress. Six articles in a single Liahona edition, all about saying so many of the things that I and Natasha Helfer Parker and so many other amazing podcasters, activists, mental health professionals, et cetera, have been saying for 15, 20 years. They're in these articles. So I want to begin by thanking the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints for making this important baby step.

Why These Are Baby Steps Forward

[00:28:07] Now, for those of you who missed the very beginning, I call this a baby step because these six amazing articles, while I'm super happy that they're there, they are only to young adults for some weird reason. And they're digital only, which is a huge obnoxious oversight on the Church's part. Now I know they've got to move slowly, but it is progress because now it's no longer my podcast. You have to show a believing Mormons. It's no longer the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. And even the Bridges book by the Ostler by Brother Osler, which is amazing, is not a church sponsored book per se.

[00:28:45] These articles, these articles are on churchofjesuschrist.org so they can't be argued with. And that is the first point that is super important. Yes, it's egregiously dumb that they weren't in the printed version, but it's incredibly important that these are on the Church's website. And I want you to use these as love missiles, as healing missiles. To number one, educate your family members on how to treat you and loved ones, Educate bishops, educate stake presidents, educate elders, quorum presidents, relief society presidents. These are missiles of love and healing to help people treat you better and treat us better and to help awaken them to the same types of things that you have been awakened to so that they can have more informed consent in the ways that they engage the church.

[00:29:46] So I am going to go through these essays now and I'm going to read to you some of the highlights and I'm going to invite you guys to share your highlights and we're going to go in order. We're going to start with, are you the only member of the church in your family? You're not alone. And I just want to tell you again, don't turn off if you care about being treated well by family members, believing family members. If you want the church to become more supportive and if you want the church to develop more empathy for nonbelievers, for apostates, for ex Mormons, this is a super important episode.

[00:30:26] So don't just shut this off. Take the time to see and learn what's in these episodes in these articles. Do it with me if you want, do it with us. And then use these articles as love missiles of healing. And that's why we're going through them, because I'm going to tease out the important messages that you can show to bishops, show to your parents, show to your believing spouse, show to your, your siblings that are treating you badly, show to your children or your grandchildren that are alienating or isolating you.

[00:30:57] It's, it's an antidote to all of that. So I'm also going to be reading to you a really important statement by Alan Mount of Marriage on a Tightrope that gives us really important background to these articles. But I'm not going to read it quite yet.

[00:31:13] So please join with me and we are going to go through some of the highlights. So the first article that we're going to dig into is are you the only member of the church in your family? You're not alone.

Article One: Being the Only Member in Your Family

[00:31:29] Again, this is digital only and there is no author of this particular article. And basically, it's basically saying, you know, if you're the only member of the church in your family, don't worry, you're not alone. There are other people like you. And here are some tips to, to navigating your life so you don't need to leave the church.

[00:31:57] Now, what I probably should do and I what I will do is I want to take a minute to highlight ahead of time some of the themes and some of the messages that you are going to be hearing in all of these articles. Because what the church is doing here, it is strategic. It's not just compassionate, it's also strategic. And I want to prime you ahead of time to look for certain themes or approaches and then we're going to illustrate them. And then I'll summarize.

[00:32:29] When we talk about digital only, it's really important that you understand what they're likely doing. Here is the same thing they did with the Gospel topics essays. And here's what I mean. The church knew with the Gospel Topics essays that it had to become more open and honest about its history because of the Swedish rescue. Hans Matzon Mormon Stories Mormon Think Eventually CES Letter the Church was getting hammered by people feeling betrayed by the Mormon Church.

[00:32:57] You know, of course, polygamy, polyandry was awful. The Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon historicity stuff was devastating. The racism, the sexism, the homophobe, all of that was devastating to the church. What was most devastating to the Church were two things. One was all the members who felt betrayed by the church, hiding and lying and deceiving them about its history.

[00:33:18] That was more devastating than any of the specific historical tidbits. And Richard Bushman has admitted this, Terrell Givens has admitted this. And this came out of the study that I did with Travis Stratford, Hans Mattson, Greg Prince that we presented to Marlon Jensen, that got written up and was given to Elder Uchtdorf, President Uchtdorf, and that eventually was used as justification by Marlon Jensen to convince the Brethren to release the essays. So the Brethren knew they had a problem of trust on their hands. And this was also talked about by Patrick Mason in the recent fireside that was released. Trust was a huge issue the Brethren had to fix.

[00:33:56] And the second issue was legal. They were starting to get sued more and more, just like the recent lawsuit from my dear friend James Huntsman that was recently published in the Washington Post. You know, even, even Tom Phillips, the the Mormon Stories podcast interviewee that received a second anointing, lost his faith, talked about it, and then sued the Mormon Church in Great Britain for fraud. The Church knew that if it didn't release the Gospel Topics essays, it was going to potentially be more liable for fraud.

[00:34:32] So. So the Church knew that it had to start being more open and honest. And so it did release the essays, but it did it in a very strategic way. It only released them online and it didn't publicize them widely. And we have Elder Snow, who was church historian at the time, who admitted directly that they intentionally did not want these articles to be broadly dispersed because they didn't want to spread the truth. Viru learning about the truthful history of the church causes people to leave the church. So they needed the essays to be up there for legal defense reasons. They wanted them to be there for pastoral reasons if somebody needed them, but they only wanted them to be known by people on a need to know basis, and they didn't want the rest of the church knowing about them.

[00:35:22] That's the strategy the Church is taking with the Internet these days. And that's what they're doing here. They don't want these essays widely available because they're worried, I believe, that if there's too much empathy for believers, too much support for believers, too much talk about people losing their faith, it's going to spread the truth virus and too many people are going to leave. However, the church realizes that if they don't bend, they're going to break. And if there's a mixed faith marriage where one's left their faith, one's left the faith, and the other one's still believing, and there's just constant stress and strain on the marriage, if there, if it, if, if it isn't a more humane environment for the nonbeliever and for the believing spouse in that mixed faith marriage, if the environment isn't more healthy, eventually the believing spouse is going to lose hope, get tired, get exhausted, and leave.

[00:36:14] In addition, there's this whole sad heaven concept of, like, you know, the whole point of the gospel is that everyone returned to heaven, and what that creates is sad heaven, because inevitably some of your kids are going to lose your faith, lose their faith. Your spouse is inevitably going to lose their faith. Especially in the modern age, some of your kids are going to be gay, some of your siblings, some of your parents, whatever. And so, like the Mormon doctrine of eternal families became the doctrine of sad heaven, where all the Mormons around were, all the, all the Mormons around who were having family, family members lose their faith, tied to a constant talk about no empty chairs and everybody returning to the celestial kingdom.

[00:36:57] All of that was leaving all these Mormons sad and depressed and dejected about how the plan of salvation unraveled for them. And it was like Saturday's warrior, didn't we love him? Didn't we raise him good? Didn't we do our best in spite of all the pain? You know, it's like, what could we have done different?

[00:37:16] What could we do more than we've done? Didn't we love him, you know, and, and sad heaven was devastating the Mormon Church because we now know the Pew foundation has released the data that 50% of Mormons raised in the United States leave the church. That's people raised Mormon, over 50% are leaving, not to mention the attrition rate of like 80 or 90% of the converts. So, like, the Mormon Church is draining like a sieve. It's losing members.

[00:37:49] It's soon going to be a dying church in the United States and in Western Europe and in Asia. And if it weren't for Africa and Like the Philippines and Latin America where they just baptize poor people, you know, 20, 20amonth, whatever, per missionary companionship. The church would be a shrinking church today.

[00:38:08] So because the church is losing like everybody, they are forced to try and make articles to make the church more loving and supportive for believer, for nonbelievers so that they don't lose the believers, the believers that are left. I think the church knows they're not going to get back the people who have lost their faith. What I believe they're trying to do here is get back the people who, to keep the people who are going to leave if their family breaks apart.

[00:38:41] And so they're trying to create things that are more flexible. So as we read these essays, watch for a changing doctrine about sad heaven. Watch for a focus on Jesus. So it's like you'll never see Joseph Smith mentioned in any of this stuff. You're going to only see mention of modern day apostles. You're going to see this massive focus on Jesus and that also represents Russell M. Nelson's huge focus, which is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. We've realized we're taking Moroni off the temples. We're blowing up the name Jesus on our logo. We're creating this huge logo with a super tall, phallic looking Jesus that just is just saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

[00:39:26] We're making the term Mormon illegal. We're saying that the term Mormon represents, you know, a victory for Satan to even use the term Mormon. We're stripping ourselves of the Mormon identity. We're changing all the SEO in on Google and in the church so that, you know, we're not associated even with the word Mormon anymore. We basically want to kill our past rebrand. We're doing a corporate rebranding of the product. It's all about Jesus now.

[00:39:57] And, and I don't mean that as a sarcastic thing. I think that is a positive step. It's basically what community of Christ did. You know, talk about real prophets and seers and revelators. It's what community of Christ did. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. It's what they did 30, 40, 50 years ago. Our church is finally now following in that footstep. Hooray for a focus more on Jesus.

[00:40:21] I made a joke on the Internet that some may have felt was disrespectful. I could hear a symbolic call from church headquarters. More Jesus, less Joseph. You know, that is the new mantra of Russell M. Nelson and I think it's a positive step because, you know, if we're going to go for role models. I do think Jesus is a better role model than Joseph or Brigham. I just think that's factually true.

[00:40:49] And Jesus, you know, if you read him right, if you don't read him the way Kwaku and others read him, where it's like Jesus came with the sword to divide families. But if you, if you read Jesus like most rational, reasonable, kind hearted people do, you will interpret Jesus as being all about love, all about kindness, all about compassion, all about listening, all about love, all about love. And that is in all of these articles. And you're gonna see it and, and you're going to see it in spades.

[00:41:24] It's going to be a real focus on individual responsibility, on differentiation, where you do I do me and you do you. There's going to be a real focus on mutual respect where even if you've left the church, even if you've made different decisions, I still respect you and you can be a good moral person even if you leave the church. There's a real heavy attempt at dispelling all these negative stereotypes of people who leave the church that they can't be moral, that they just wanted to sin, that they never believed in the first place.

[00:41:57] All those stereotypes the church is now actively trying to dispel and dismiss with these articles. And that's one of the reasons why it's super important. A heavy emphasis on a personal relationship with Jesus, which is a little bit interesting given our beliefs in the Godhead and the traditional teachings about Heavenly Father being the person that we have, the relationship, not Jesus, and an encouragement for believers to fight for their families, for their mixed faith families, to fight for their relationships.

[00:42:29] All of that is super beautiful. And so watch for those themes in these articles. And so now let's kind of dig into them. So in this article of are you the only member of the church in your family? You're not alone. It's going to give some advice. The first piece of advice to someone in the church is put the Lord first and put the Lord first. I highlighted that because I do think it's really important for the church to be careful with this idea.

Putting the Lord First Versus Family First

[00:43:06] Because you know, the comment that I made in the sidelines is is it the Lord that should be put first or is it families that should be put first? I'm not so sure the Lord should be put over families. I think families should be put first.

[00:43:23] So that's, I don't mean to start with the critique, but this is the first point in the first article and I Just want to. I know that the church listens to these episodes. I know that they make changes directly from these episodes. Heck, they took the Chelsea Homer articles down like three days after I talked about them on Mormon Stories podcast, which made us all sad, including Chelsea and Nick. We know they're listening. We know they're changing. These articles prove that they're changing. And so guys, please be careful on the rhetoric of put the Lord first. I think it should be put families first.

[00:43:56] I highlighted this point. Quote, he that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. And he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. There's a level where I can understand what they're saying here.

[00:44:14] If God to you is love and kindness and hope and health, then fine, put God first. Put health, love, kindness, charity first. But if your God is a God of judgment or retribution or being critical or exclusion, if you've absorbed the Mormon God of the past or the Old Testament God, this is dangerous because then you just use a violent God as the justification for treating families with violence.

[00:44:45] So that's, that's problematic depending on what someone's view of God is. And then also just, I just wonder, is it, is it ever? You know, isn't that straying into cult territory? You know, isn't that what cults do? They put the religion before the family? I just think the church needs to be careful here. I think that quote is not super healthy. I think it's a little bit risky and dangerous.

[00:45:09] And so I, I do want to, to ask the church to be a little bit careful about that. But my goal is not to nitpick. My goal is to celebrate these changes. The second point from this article that it says is be respectful of one another. And how can that not be an amazing thing? This is in the context of dealing with believing non believing family and friends and how you can just use this and say, hey mom and dad, hey believing spouse. This says you need to respect me. And by the way, this is just the beginning. Some of these other articles go into much more depth, but how can that not be viewed as a positive thing?

[00:45:55] It is telling believers to be respectful to nonbelievers. Let me continue. It says, patiently help them understand. Again, it's encouraging patience and, and that's a good thing. It's saying be an example. I think that the big. Basically, I think that be an example is a little bit problematic. And here's why. One of the themes in all of these articles is sort of like believer you know, I'm a believer. I do me. You're a non believer. You do you. I do me, you do you. That's fine in the sense that I believe that too. Everybody should be respected. It should go both ways. Non believers should respect believers.

[00:46:45] But this is a bit problematic because part of the messaging you're going to see in these articles is if you just draw as close to God as you can, if you draw as close to Jesus as you can, as you be as faithful and as righteous as you can, you can be an example. And then maybe someday they might come around, or you'll just be a good example of Christ, like living. I'm not saying that that's their intent, but here's why that's a little bit problematic. Number one, I do think it puts a lot of pressure on the believer to make them feel like, oh, they're the only one who believes.

[00:47:20] I've got to be the best example as possible. To me, that type of pressure leads to scrupulosity. It leads to pressure, it leads to stress. It just puts a lot of burden on people when life is really complex. I don't think Mormonism needs more pressure, and I don't think people that are surrounded by nonbelievers need even more pressure to be even better than before. So we have to be careful about that. The other thing we don't want people doing is living their righteousness to try and convert others back to the faith. I think that sets them up for false hope, for unrealistic expectations, and it also sets up this context of like, I'm trying to change you through my example, and I just don't think we should ever be trying to change anyone.

[00:48:03] I don't think that a non believer should be trying to change a believer. I think that's a personal journey. So I think we need to be careful here. The next message is, know that you're not alone. And you know, it's basically saying that there are lots of other people like you, but also God is with you and Jesus is with you and they will support you. And I think that's a difficult message because the truth is this is all based on the idea that there is a God and that there is a Jesus, and that they are interventionists, that they know you personally, that they love you personally, and that they intervene.

[00:48:44] And I guess everyone's going to have a different point of view on that. And I. I think that reasonable people and good people have different views on that. But is God really going to be there for you? Is Jesus really going to be there for you? If you're like the only believer in your entire family and you're pleading to God and Jesus for help, what type of help is the church, you know, teaching the believer, the lone believer in a family to expect? Is God going to help you? Is he going to reach out? Is he really going to make a difference? Or are they just going to be pleading and pleading and pleading for help and life is going to just keep going like it normally does?

[00:49:24] Other than just employing the standard, you know, confirmation bias, where you just interpret coincidences as God intervening in your life, does this set people up for an expectation of support and help that may not be there for them in this context or in this scenario? I think the church has to be a little bit mindful and careful about that.

Eternal Families Doctrine and Its Emotional Weight

[00:49:50] Another thing that it says is focus on your own eternal goals. And again, that's talking about your goal for an eternal family someday. And I just want to say, you know, if you're hoping for an eternal family, but everyone around you isn't a believer, again, does this sort of, does this divide families? Does it? Even though you're trying to be good and trying to respect others, if all the time you're doubling down on your eternal goals of eternal family and everyone around you has left the church, you're trying to think about, how do I have my eternal family someday? I just think this tears people apart.

[00:50:29] I can think of my own sister who passed away, her husband, you know, she married a non member, her children started leaving the church. All of a sudden she was the only believer in her entire family. And all she was thinking about was sad heaven every day. And my sister Gina died young.

[00:50:48] She died of a preventable illness, I believe. And sometimes I wonder whether my sister was just so disappointed at how life ended up as the only believer in her entire immediate family. Plus I had lost my faith, her sibling plus my brother, you know, plus, you know, other, other stuff. Like I just wonder whether whether this focus on this, you know, I just wonder if the doctrine of eternal families is backfires. I wonder whether the Mormon doctrine of eternal families causes sadness, whether it causes division, whether it caught, whether it causes disappointment and depression and anxiety.

[00:51:31] And what if we just had this belief that everybody goes to heaven if there's a heaven. Like, what if we have this belief that, like this life is the only life we know we have, let's make the most of it and treat everybody with kindness and not worry about a future that none of us really knows about. You know, what if that's the belief that we had, what if we had the belief of being radically kind to everyone in our family and being just, radically inclusive no matter what, and leaving for tomorrow, tomorrow. And what if Jesus taught that? What if Jesus actually taught, take no thought for the morrow, for today is the evil sufficient thereof?

[00:52:09] And what if a focus on the eternal families in the future is actually causing suffering? And I think that's what secular Buddhism and even Jesus would teach us in the end, that worrying about the past or the future is a recipe for sadness.

[00:52:25] And focusing on the present moment, love and peace and kindness in the present moment. What if that is the Holy Grail of health and happiness? And if that's true, then what if this teaching of focusing on your eternal goals, of eternal families, however well intended it is, what if that is setting people up for sadness and depression and anxiety and disappointment and in their lives? So I love the personal focus on it that we're not. The church is teaching people not to spread the sadness and disappointment and pressure and judgment and negativity on nonbelievers. But I do worry about the mental health implications of having sole believers in a family focus on their own goals, especially a toxic goal like eternal families.

[00:53:17] And then finally remember that Christ knows how you feel. Sorry, that's not. Finally remember that Christ knows how you feel. Again, that's powerful if there's a Christ, and that's powerful if Christ knows you personally. But if that's fiction or if that's made up, and if there's really not a Christ who's looking over you and protecting you and guiding you, or if he's not going to reach out to you in the way that you have been taught or expect, are you just setting people up for false expectations and disappointment? I think that's a fair question.

[00:53:50] And then of course, there's this teaching of deepen your relationship with Heavenly Father. The problem with this type of quote, and you're gonna see this throughout these essays, is the risk of the doubling down effect. So as soon as you've got these believing Mormons that are like surrounded by non believers, being told to deepen your relationship with Jesus and deepen your relationship with Heavenly Father, the risk is you create what's called the backfire effect or the doubling down effect, how many of you can relate to having been in a mixed faith marriage, you lost your faith and your spouse who never really cared much about the temple, all of a sudden starts going to the temple all the time, or didn't really care about tithing all of a sudden starts paying more tithing or didn't really care about garments too much, and all of a sudden they're wearing garments all the time.

[00:54:38] Like sometimes there's this doubling down effect where when one loses their faith, the other doubles down. I don't think that polarization is healthy in families and in marriages. And so if this sort of like focus on deepening your relationship with God and deepening your relationship in Jesus creates more pressure and polarization, I worry that that doubling down effect can just cause more stress and strain. It can backfire again. I think this is an overall very positive move by the church and I don't want to be more critical. This article is actually the one that was most problematic for me. I want you to know that many of the others are going to be just all positive, so.

[00:55:19] And they're going to be able to be used as love missiles for healing and growth. But this is the, this is the one that's most problematic. I'll just read a bit from this article. Instead of trying to sell your family members on the gospel of your reasoning, focus on becoming your best self and growing spiritually and be patient, hold firm to your decisions and see them as part of your eternal progression. People's hearts change when they can see what the gospel of Jesus Christ does for you and how you live your life. And again, that is exactly the kind of mixed message that I think is problematic.

[00:55:54] It's good that it's telling them not to try and persuade. You can use this as a missile and say, stop trying to sell me on the church. I've lost my faith. You believe it. Look, this article says, don't sell me on the gospel. Don't argue with me. You need to focus on being your best self and growing spiritually. That's the good part. That you can weaponize with love. You can love, weaponize for love and for healing.

[00:56:20] But this focus on eternal progression and people's hearts changing when they see what the gospel does to you in your life. The problem with that is that it puts too much pressure. It sets people up for false expectations and it can create this backfire effect and this polarization. And it sets people up to be righteous so that other people can change. And I think people should just be righteous if they want to be righteous, not be righteous with the intent of, of changing anyone.

[00:56:51] The final point, I think it's, oh, there's so many points here. Another point is choose to move forward with Christ. It says, quote, God takes care of all of us, whether we are members of his church or not. I pray for my family. I put their names on the temple prayer roll and I serve them. I am grateful for the differences in perspective we have and for what they teach me. And I'm grateful to have them in my life regardless of our differences. Again, it's saying, this is so positive, right? It's saying, it's having a believer say, I'm grateful for the nonbelievers in my life.

[00:57:24] I pray for them, I put them on the temporal roll and I serve them. Again, how this can be love weaponized for healing in the sense that you can say to them, your job isn't to ostracize me. Your job isn't to shun me. Your job isn't to treat me in a mean way, to cut me out of the text strings. Your job is to pray for me and serve me in a loving, kind way. That is what this article is telling you to do.

[00:57:56] That's great. And it's basically saying your job is to be grateful to have me, the nonbeliever in your life. Now, of course that doesn't work. You can't shove it in their face. But if you give them this article, if you highlight it like I've done, and if you say this is, I just want to let you know this is how the church is instructing you to treat me from their own website, can you see how this can help encourage a healthier dialogue? If you do it in a kind, loving, supportive way, which I only encourage. And so there's so much that's good here. But again, I just worry about the pressure and the doubling down the last, and this is the last point of this article, the Lord will guide you.

[00:58:42] Again, my question is, will, will the Lord guide you? Is there an interventionist God? Why is there so much poverty? Why is there so much death? Why is there rape? Why is there murder? Why is there assault? You know, that's the problem of evil or the theodicy. You know, does the Lord and Jesus, do they really guide you? And is that setting people up for false expectations? In this article it says the Lord will always support you in your struggles. And not only that, he can also guide you in how to demonstrate love, show understanding, and offer compassion to your loved ones who disagree or believe differently.

[00:59:22] And again, listen, if people need a God or a belief in Jesus or if they want one to be happy, to be healthy, to feel safe in the world, I have zero problem with that. I love it. I have dear friends who are Christian, you know, Randy Bell, Paul Cardall, Sandra Tanner. I could go on and on. Joel Tippetts, Janice Spengler. Like I love Christians. I love progressive Christians. I love all Christians.

[00:59:51] I love people believe in God. I'm not an atheist. I've never once in my life identified as an atheist or an agnostic. But I do think, you know, I do think it's problematic to promise divine interventions when, when there's so much problems in the world.

[01:00:09] Yes, it's true that someone can pray and find their keys. Is it true that God helped them find their keys or that's just they found their keys and attributed it to God? If you believe God helped you find your keys, you have to answer the question, why did God not save people from the Holocaust? Why did God save, not save that little 13 year old African girl from being tortured, raped and murdered? I don't mean to be glib about that, but you just have to have second, you know, why didn't God save Steve Christensen and Kathy Sheets from Mark Hoffman's bombings? Why didn't God inspire Russell M.

[01:00:43] Nelson to protect the bombing victims from Mark Hoffman? You just have to, you know, you always have to teach the interventionist God and the interventionist Jesus with a huge asterisk because otherwise you're setting up people for false expectations.

[01:01:01] So that's the first article. The Lord will guide you. I think it's a good article and that's the first one that we're talking about and there's a lot of good in it. The second article that we're going to talk about is an unexpected lesson from Ammon for today's challenges. And basically what this, this is by Drew Pearson. And there's a lot of really good things in this article.

Article Two: Loving Those with Different Beliefs

[01:01:32] The beginning of this article says one story in the Book of Mormon reminded me of the most important solution when it comes to dealing with differences. And again, not to be petty, not to be critical, but I did note there's a bit of cringeness in this article because they've got a picture of kind of their portrayal of what a laymanite likely would have been. So they're using Lamanites or Native Americans. They're using Native Americans to perpetuate the idea of a laymanite.

[01:02:05] And you know, we now know that there were no such thing as Lamanites, that Native Americans were descendants of the Asiatic, you know, people through the Bering Strait and so just cringe, you know, Lamanite cringe. Can we please lay off the Lamanite cringe? We don't need cultural appropriation.

[01:02:25] We don't need to perpetuate a false identity to Native Americans in a book that is, you know, Bible fan fiction that was authored as a 19th century document by Joseph Smith. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this is culturally imperialistic and offensive to perpetuate the Lamanite stuff. So why they dropped that in the middle of this article is a little bit disappointing.

[01:02:48] But you know they're going to do what they're going to do. Let me jump to a part of this article that I think is amazing and really, having said what I just said, this thing I'm about to read is amazing. Let me read it to you now.

[01:03:06] Talking about a story from Ammon. This is from the article Quote I need to esteem everyone as my brethren. Let me go back. During this time of grappling with social unrest and divisiveness, I find it more important than ever to follow the example set by Ammon.

[01:03:24] I need to esteem everyone as my brethren, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, political party, or any other grounds for political segregation or discrimination. I must follow Ammon's example, and even more importantly, Christ's teachings, to love one another.

[01:03:54] This commandment has no conditions. No conditions. We aren't commanded to love only those of the same race, nationality or religion. And I just cannot applaud this. This needs to be. You want to talk about something cross stitch worthy? You want to talk about something that's worth putting on a billboard? You want to share this freaking article with every single Mormon on the planet today?

[01:04:29] Again, the article is an unexpected lesson from Ammon for today's changes. This is talking about transgender Mormons. They need to be unconditionally loved and accepted and esteemed. Okay? Transgender, gay, lesbian, bisexual, liberal, Democrat, atheist, agnostic, people who have left the church.

[01:04:58] Ethnicity, black, white, brown, race, everything. No discrimination. They all need to be loved. And there is no exception. Love one another. Can you think of a cooler thing to be in a church publication? This. This quote should be shared far and wide. Think about all the Desnat people who are hating on everybody these days. Think of all the, let's just say extreme Republicans or extreme Democrats that are hateful of the other side. Politically. Both need to be told, you need Republicans. You need to love Democrats and libs or liberals Democrats. You need to love Trumpers or Trump supporters. Everybody needs to love. How do we not need this message in 2021?

[01:05:51] It's probably the most important lesson any of us could have. Homophobes, transphobes, you need to love your gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. No exceptions. Racists. You need to love Asian Americans. You need to love African Americans. You need to love Native Americans. You need to love everyone. This is like the most cool quote ever. Have I emphasized this enough? This is super important. This is caffeinated John Dehlin. Hopefully in a healing in a loving way, not in a divisive and an angry way.

[01:06:30] And it goes on. It's even better. Check out this next quote. Expressing racism, nationalism or any other prejudice is discrimination and not loving one another. Christ truly is no respecter of persons and all are alike unto God. Ammon showed this by loving and serving the Lamanites. We can show this by loving and serving the Lamanites. We can show it by proactively reaching out in love to everyone, regardless of whether they're in our usual social circles. So again, this is a call to love and embrace and support non believing family and friends. And this is what we've been praying for. If, if you're a non believing spouse, your believing spouse has been called to love and support you.

[01:07:26] If you're in a ward and you're being ostracized, you show them this article and say your job is to embrace and love me unconditionally. If you're being cut out of your friend group, if your family is cutting you out, if your children are alienating you from your grandchildren, if your children are cutting you off, this article can lovingly be shared with them to send say the church itself is saying love me regardless of my religious beliefs or non beliefs. I simply cannot think of a more important message. I'm going to share this now in the comments. I literally think every one of you who is within the sound of my voice should share this message with everyone possible and help it heal families and bring people together.

[01:08:13] And yes, I am going to thank and congratulate the Mormon Church when they do something that's laudable and good. And there is nothing that isn't amazing about this second article and I wanted to laud it. Okay, let is let us go on to the third article.

Article Three: When a Sibling Leaves the Church

[01:08:33] The third article is how my heart changed when my brother left the church. Now this is of course near and dear to my heart because I am a brother to three siblings who left the church at one point or another and I'm just going to sort of summarize it. It basically tells the story of a believing Mormon whose brother left the church and it made them super sad. And at the end of that story it said I was angry, I was sad, I was hurt. But then it says one day something finally clicked. I realized there was something I could do.

[01:09:12] I could love. Never were there three cooler words summarized as to what believing Mormons need to do for their non believing spouse, children, parents, friends, cousins, ward members. I could love that we should have a somebody create a hat. Create a flag that says I could love right? This needs to be like the mantra. We need T shirts. If one of you wants to make T shirts or hats that says I could love, let's make hats. T shirts, flags, bumper stickers, logos. I could love right? Because there is no cooler message than that and the church is now teaching it and this message needs to get out everywhere and I applaud the church for this message.

[01:10:06] Another passage that I highlighted from this article I began to see his goodness again talking about the non believing brother. I started to accept and respect his decisions even though they were different from mine. I know those changes to my heart and mind could have only been made through the healing power of Jesus Christ. What I love about this article, and I do believe that this is highly significant.

[01:10:34] It's basically saying your job as a believer is to respect me as a non believer, to see my goodness right? To start accepting and respecting my decisions. Did you hear that ladies and gentlemen? The Mormon Church is telling its believing family members to respect non believers. Not just to accept or tolerate them. To respect their decisions even though they were different from their own. Again Share this quote with everyone everywhere. It is highly significant and it is important. Let me go on to read what it says. It says my brother hasn't come back to the church and I don't think he plans to anytime soon.

[01:11:23] But I've learned that he has his own agency and that even if he chooses differently than I do, I can love and respect him anyway. We have a better relationship than we've had in years. Because we love. Because we love.

[01:11:39] Because of the love we show each other. I don't always agree with his choices or his opinions, but by doing so, my best to understand him better. I've been able to get a glimpse of just how much Heavenly Father loves and knows each of his children. The key to keeping families together and reaching each other's hearts isn't condemning each other's choices. Ultimately, it's love. The pure love of Christ. I can never force my brother to return to the Gospel, but I can love him and help him know that he is always welcome.

[01:12:13] I think this is a huge positive message and it's basically saying my relationship with my brother is better than ever. Can you imagine that? It's basically giving believing Mormons this hope that not only should they love and embrace their, their non believing family, but that someday their non belief can actually lead to a better relationship than was ever possible. It's painting that picture. This is something Natasha over. Parker and I have been teaching in our workshops and retreats for 10 years. In our mixed faith marriage retreats, we teach people that mixed faith marriages can actually make your marriage better than ever before. And there's actually more articles that talk about this, but it is so true and it's so important and worth celebrating that the Church is now telling believing Mormons that if you love the non believer and listen to them and support them and respect them, you can have a better relationship with them than ever before.

[01:13:12] And I think that that is amazing and important. And then in the end we're going to hear this message that I've already told you you are going to get. Trust in the Lord. This applies to unanswered questions about ceilings in the next life. This is a quote from Dial Nate Oaks. Trust in the Lord. This applies to unanswered questions about ceilings in the next life or desired readjustments because of events or transgressions in mortality.

[01:13:38] There is so much we do know that our only sure reliance There is so much that we do not know that our only sure reliance is to trust in the Lord and His love for his children. And this is a fraught and a mixed message. Basically, what the Church has realized here is that the sad heaven doctrine, which is inextricably linked to the eternal family's doctrine, is a loser in the end. It's manipulative in the sense that it, you know, you go to someone and you say, hey, your child has died, your parents have died. You know, are you worried you're never going to see him again?

[01:14:15] We have a message of eternal families where you can see your dead family again, or you can see the people you love again, or all your, you know, or we create this scarcity. The Church creates the scarcity. A lot of people believe that, you know, when you die, that's it. But we have a message where you not only can become a God, you can live forever with your family. Who doesn't want that? And so the doctrine of eternal families becomes this hook that they lure people in when there's death or sadness in their family. And it gives them hope. But it also is hope created by the scarcity that it created by even suggesting that heaven wasn't fully inclusive in the first place.

[01:14:53] What would have been much better is to have a doctrine that says everybody goes to heaven, and heaven is a place where families can be together forever, period. But that's, again, a side note. But we all know now that the doctrine of eternal families is alluring for converts and for members once that scarcity is created, and it puts Mormons on the hamster wheel of dependency on the church and addiction to the church as a middleman to pay your tithing and obey so that you can earn getting to be with your family someday. Like, we all understand the insidiousness of the doctrine of eternal families and the problems with sad heaven.

[01:15:40] And so we understand why they do it. We understand that it's a problem. What this scripture is doing is it's trying to backpedal and say, hey, don't worry, Mormons, we don't understand the eternities. You know, we need to trust in the Lord and we have ceilings, but who knows what happens in the next life? Heavenly Father's loving. He's going to make it all right. And so what we're going to see here is the church try to have their cake and eat it, too. They're going to try and keep using as a missionary tool the teaching of eternal families and of family togetherness. But when they do that, they have to couple it with the teaching of who knows, anything can happen.

[01:16:19] It's a loving Heavenly Father. And if that's true, why do temple ordinances at all? If Heavenly Father is a loving Heavenly Father, that's gonna just make it all right. Shouldn't Mormons today not be going to the temple to do ordinances for dead people? If Heavenly Father's just gonna make it all right, shouldn't they be solving poverty? Shouldn't they be educating the illiterate? Shouldn't they be delivering water to people who don't have water? Shouldn't they be fighting crime and racism and assault and sexism and homophobia, transgender rights, you know, whatever. Ignorance, education, love, you know, poverty. Like, there are so many things that this army of remaining active Mormons could be engaged in making the world a better place.

[01:17:05] Instead, we've got all these people going to a temple, doing these ordinances in a rote, lifeless way for these fictitious ordinances that are. That are unnecessary and that probably aren't going to make a difference anyway. It's just this egregious, outrageous waste of time and money and resources. And, of course, the church is doubling down, building temples a mile a minute because they know that the church gets more tithing when they tie temple attendance to and marriages and worthiness to tithe paying and church faithfulness. So it's a real pickle the church is getting itself into. Temples are exclusionary, they're disciplinary and they're huge wastes of time and money when Christ would I'm sure much rather hundreds of millions of dollars be spent on the poor than on these ornate, elaborate, you know, chandelier, opulent, gold leafed art and buildings that the church then destroys later and destroys the art anyway like they did in Salt Lake City.

[01:18:11] And I think Manti like don't get me started on temples. It's a problem. And I just want to highlight that this trust in the Lord, who knows what happens? The Lord will make things right. It's an attempt to backpedal on a doctrine that's causing more people to be sad and want to leave the church because who wants to be inside heaven?

[01:18:33] And it's a problem. But I don't want that to be a distraction from the goodness of this overall article. This is an amazing article. Everyone needs to share it. It's a breakthrough article, as is the previous one and I can't say enough good things about it and I hope you guys agree and shout the truth from from the rooftops. Okay, the fourth article that we are going to be reviewing today is called maintaining hope and keeping your marriage strong if your spouse leaves the church. And this is the point where I wanted to read a quote from the amazing Alan Mount. Now this quote is an important quote because number one, Alan Mount is a huge important figure along with his wife Katie in the battle for healing families, for keeping families together, for mixed faith marriages.

Article Four: Keeping Your Marriage Strong in Mixed Faith

[01:19:36] Again, check out marriage on a tightrope. Donate to them, give them money. Support Alan and Katie. Support Bill. Real support Radio Free Mormon. These are all very important resources, but many of you know that recently on Mormon Stories podcast I had Chelsea and Nick, Homer and Chelsea and Nick. Their episode has been a game changer.

[01:20:02] For those who don't remember Chelsea and Nick or haven't listened to that episode yet, go listen to it. Chelsea and Nick were super Mormons, raised in Utah, super faithful, super devout, met at byu, checked all the boxes. Both of them served missions.

[01:20:17] Young, just healthy, compelling, articulate, thoughtful couple. Great humans. And they got married in the temple and almost immediately Nick lost his faith. And Chelsea Homer by this point was an Instagrammer. And you know, it came up on a year of their marriage. They had had a child of course. Cause you have your baby immediately after you get married within Mormonism. But Nick wasn't gonna be able to bless the baby. And so Chelsea decided to do a public post on Instagram about her husband losing his faith. It was an act of vulnerability, it was an act of charity, it was an act of kindness, and it was an act of love and support for Nick.

[01:21:03] And fortunately, the church made these baby steps of asking Chelsea and Nick if they could share this Instagram article about a believing spouse supporting their non believing spouse to the world for Mormons and Chelsea. Nick said yes. So the article was shared on the church's Instagram page.

[01:21:26] And then later the church invited Chelsea to write an article about being in a mixed faith marriage and supporting your non believing spouse on the church's website on lds. Org at the time. And this has been a huge thing. And this Instagram post got tens of thousands of likes. It was forwarded all over the place.

[01:21:46] And Chelsea and Nick became kind of poster children for believing spouses accepting non believing spouses. And at the time, I celebrated this as like the first teeny baby step towards Elder Holland making good on the request that I asked of him back in 2008, 2009, whenever it was that we met.

[01:22:07] Well, ultimately Chelsea lost her faith. And ultimately Chelsea started a support group for Mormons who were questioning their faith for mixed faith marriages. It's an amazing support group. I'm going to name it now because it's grown. Get this. There were 2,000 members of the support group when I interviewed Chelsea. It's now grown to 3,000. So the Mormon Stories episode, plus Chelsea and Nick, plus all the goodness, plus all the work of the people there, grew this support group.

[01:22:44] A thousand fifty percent, a full thousand more people have joined the support group since. Since the Mormon Stories interview. The. The, the support group is, is called oh my Gosh. I need to, I need to find the link to the group.

[01:23:10] It's. It's Faith Journeys. I believe. Oh my gosh, this is so important. And I can't believe that my post, if any of you are listening right now. Oh, it's called Faith Journey Meetups. So Faith Journey Meetups is this amazing group for Mormon women who are in faith crisis or questioning their faith or in mixed faith marriages and they need support.

[01:23:39] The group that Chelsea started is called Faith Journey Meetups. And I just want to show you how beautiful this is when, when I interviewed Chelsea, there were 2,000 members of the group. And now if you look at that beautiful number, there's 3.1 thousand members of the group and it's only growing. So if you want or need, if you are a woman, if you're a progressive or post Mormon woman who needs support and you're navigating a faith crisis, join Faith Journey Meetups.

[01:24:13] Share it with friends and family. It's amazing. And I have to do a shout out because it's sort such an important resource. So shout out to Chelsea and Nick and their amazing courage. Okay, so back to this article.

[01:24:29] There is a point why I'm telling you all of this. So. So I interviewed Chelsea and Nick. It's a, it's a groundbreaking podcast. We promote this support group and within four days of my interviewing Chelsea and Nick, the church takes down their Instagram post and deletes it and they take down Chelsea's post on the Internet encouraging faithful Mormons to support their non believing Mormons. And I don't want to speak for Chelsea or Nick, but I can only imagine how heartbreaking this was for Chelsea and Nick to have the church just totally after all their sacrifices, after all the goodwill, after that personal relationship of offering those things, to have just the church without ever contacting them.

[01:25:13] Just take those articles down the memory hole without notifying Chelsea. Nick deleting them and disrespecting them in that way was not a classy move. Church pr. I encourage you to reach out to Chelsea, Nick and apologize and make that right. That's not a good way to treat people. I would never do that. I don't think. I hope I wouldn't anyway.

[01:25:35] So that's sour. And when you talk to Chelsea and Nick about the editorial process for them writing this, this article about a believing spouse supporting a non believing spouse, you'll find out that they were very, it was a very problematic and fraught relationship with the church editorial department because they feel like the church's editorial hand in collaborating with authors on these heartfelt sincere articles were so heavy handed that they too often changed the intent of the articles, the meaning of the articles, the messages of the articles, deleted things from the articles to where the original authors would get to the point of feeling like the articles really didn't even represent how they thought or felt, sometimes switched the meaning of what they were saying and ultimately left them with a really bad taste in their mouth for how media focused PR focused and heavy handed kind of ham fisted the editorial process was by the church PR in the collaboration of these articles and Alan and Katie Mount.

[01:26:53] Alan Mount reached out to me when these six articles came out because I was really interested to hear what Alan had to say because Alan and Katie at marriage on a tightrope are on the front lines trying to save mixed, mixed faith marriages. And so they're, they follow this stuff really, really closely. And because I love Allen and Katie and because I wanted to hear their viewpoint, I asked Alan for his opinion and he was gracious enough to send me a statement. And so what I wanted to do is read this statement now online. I'm going to read it to you verbatim because this is Alan's view on this entire sort of effort by the church.

[01:27:44] Because if anyone, if anyone has experience in this realm, along with Natasha Alpha Parker, myself and Julie de Azevedo Hanks and you know, Jennifer Finlayson, 5 Fitz, Alan and Katie Mount. And so I wanted to hear what they thought about these six articles.

[01:28:00] And also I'm, you know, I want, you know, I think Alan and Katie have been in touch with Chelsea and Nick. And I'm guessing that this also reflects feedback from Chelsea and Nick's experience with the church as well. So let me now read this really important quote from Alan Mount. Quote. When reading one of the articles, I realized I knew the author. So this is Alan Mount, one of the six articles. When I reached out to give them kudos for sharing their story in the article, they told me about the process of working with the church. While they are still grateful for the opportunity they had to collaborate on the church on the important topic of mixed faith relationships, there were a few things that were difficult.

Behind the Scenes Church Editing of Member Essays

[01:28:48] Similarly to Chelsea Homer's experience, there was a heavy back and forth editing process. In this process, the Mormon Church would remove much of what he wrote and add things that they didn't write. So I just want you to hear that for a second.

[01:29:07] Add things that they didn't write. So I'm writing an essay to the church for the church to post and the church is adding things to my essay that I didn't write. That's problematic. And I can see why that would sour both Alan and Katie and Chelsea and Nick Comer. Add things that they didn't write. Many of the items removed were messages that were quote, too progressive or quote to understanding. So even while that's again why I call this episode baby steps, even though the church is making some tiny baby steps releasing these articles, which I applaud, they're only releasing them digital only, only to the youth so that their, their penetration is minimal and they're editing them intentionally so that they're not too progressive and not too understanding.

[01:30:07] So the church is literally saying to Its submission people. We don't want these articles to be too understanding. And that's why I'm calling this baby steps, because that's problematic. And especially if they're editing down someone's submission. Oh no, your article is too understanding. You're being too progressive here. So we're gonna either change the intent of what you write candidly and authentically, or we're gonna tell you what to add editorially so that it sounds like it's coming from your voice, but it's really coming from our PR media team. You know, that's, that's, I think that's problematic. Alan Mount goes on to say the real head scratcher was the removal of language.

[01:30:56] And that shined a light on the positives of a mixed faith relationship. While not the same situation, I can attest to this in my mixed faith marriage. With any mixed faith relationship, both parties have to work through difficult topics, learn to communicate respectfully, and push through the discomfort intimacy is earned in those difficult conversations.

[01:31:24] Much of this positive messaging was removed. It felt like the church wanted to portray mixed faith relationships as more difficult than what the author actually experienced. Again, I can see why potentially Allen and Katie and or Chelsea and Nick were upset by these essays, even though they would applaud some of the messaging here.

[01:31:53] The fact that the church would intentionally want to de. Emphasize how healthy a mixed faith marriage can be and de emphasize the steps and the reasons behind why a mixed faith marriage can lead to better conversations, positive messaging, healing and growth. It's kind of head scratching and probably a bit fraught and problematic that the church is, is, is really holding back here and watering down the potential of the positivity against the intent of the original authors of these messages. Again, it's like we're going to try and make this sound like it's coming through someone's voice who's a, just a. You know, I'm writing you a heartfelt essay that I want you to share.

[01:32:40] While the PR engine is like, you know, rewriting these articles to fit the church's agenda and dumbing down the points that they're making, I can see why Allen feels like that is problematic. One slight different point of view that I would have from Alan is I did read in these six essays a few times the church saying things like our relationship is better than ever. Not necessarily in this article on mixed faith marriages, but in some of the other articles maybe I did read, and maybe even in that mixed faith article.

[01:33:14] I do feel like the church is starting to send that message. But I totally agree with Alan that it was watered down and that they need to be trumpeting this as, like, I mean, I mean, I think the church, you know, if the church wants relationships just to get better, the truth is it should say, get a mixed faith marriage, because the mixed faith marriage will improve your marriage if you lean into it, embrace the discomfort, embrace and celebrate it. So on the one hand, in theory, the church should do that if it really wants to strengthen mixed faith marriages. On the other hand, I can see that the church doesn't want half of its spouses to lose their faith because that just becomes deeply fraught.

[01:33:57] Tithing, attendance, children, ripple effect. So I can see why the church doesn't want to encourage mixed faith marriages and be too glowing about them. And that's kind of what's going on, but it's problematic. Alan Mount goes on to write, and I think he's reflecting the sentiment of Chelsea and Nick Comer. It reached a point where the author felt like this article was not their story. That was disappointing to say the least. The author also knows someone who had a similar experience when collaborating with Deseret Book on a writing project.

[01:34:32] It reached a point of frustration that the author of the book scrapped the project and told Deseret Book that they didn't want to work with them anymore. And on the one hand, just to try and be fair and objective, any publisher has editors. Any magazine has an agenda and a mission and has editors. And of course they're gonna edit things to fit their agenda. I would do that.

[01:34:56] I mean, I try. Okay, let me, let me back up. When I interview on Mormon Stories podcast, I try to have agenda of being objective and interviewing people of all sides. So I don't try and edit the people I interview. So I take that back. I want to bring on believers, I want to bring on apologists, and I want them to tell their truth, and I don't tell them what they can and can't say. And honestly, if I do censor or edit, it's towards being less divisive. It's towards being more inclusive and fair and not towards trying to eliminate certain points of view. But, but, but it's also true there's certain types of woo or conspiracy theory thinking that I don't want on Mormon Stories very often, at least never to be advocated for.

[01:35:40] So even I do editorialize. But I also understand what Alan and Katie are, are potentially saying here, that once someone who is submitting an essay by name, and in the fourth article case, it was an anonymous submission. But regardless when this is put forward as a personal essay and the authors end up feeling like it's not even their essay anymore, and then it's passed off to the church as a personal essay, I think that's a problem. So either the church needs to get more authentic essays that don't leave the original authors feeling disrespected and like the original intent was kind of erased and edited out.

[01:36:23] You know, something needs to happen there. But. But I'm sad for the authors that have this experience. Alan Mount continues. Here are my short thoughts about all of this. The church deserves some credit for tackling these topics. Acknowledging mixed faith family relationships is so important, and these articles will likely be a net positive for many. So there's Alan acknowledging that these articles are overall positive and an important step.

[01:36:53] So I agree with you, Alan. Alan goes on to say, however, knowing the process behind one of the articles more if you include Chelsea Homer's article makes it reasonable to assume that this is the process they take with all the articles. It calls into question how genuine each article actually is. These articles are telling a story that isn't fully based in real lived experience.

[01:37:17] They're partially fabricated and heavily influenced by what message the church wants to send. And so that in some sense makes it propaganda. And you know, that's when the church risks going into cult territory. You know, we all want the church to be a healthy Christian denomination. None of us want the church to become a cult or to be a cult. And once you're doing propaganda, you're moving into cult territory.

[01:37:46] So we don't want propaganda. And so Alan Mount I share that concern. Alan goes on to write, Some of the frustration also lies with some of the quotes that are included in the articles. For example, at the bottom of the article entitled maintaining hope and keeping your marriage strong if your spouse leaves the church, there is a quote added from President Nelson, quote, if you are married to a companion who has broken his or her covenants, your willingness to let God prevail in your life will allow your covenants with God to remain intact. The Savior will heal your broken heart. The heavens will open. As you seek to know how to move forward, you do not need to wander or wonder.

[01:38:31] So that is true. That is the article at the end of this mixed faith marriage article that we're going to cover in just a second. And Alan sees that quote from President Nelson as being problematic. And here's why. Alan Mount continues, calling spouses who have experienced a dramatic crisis of faith covenant breakers only feeds into the narrative that the believing Spouse is the victim and the doubting spouse is the perpetrator.

[01:39:03] We have spoken to so many couples who have felt that the heavens did open for them once there was a faith crisis, and they felt inspired by to stand by their spouse. They felt inspired to wonder and sometimes wander. And I think Alan and Katie would both say, and Chelsea and Nick, that the wandering and the wondering was a good thing, that you should doubt, you should question, you should think, and that you're straying into cult territory when you're trying to keep information from your members, keep them from thinking, control their think thoughts, keep them from asking questions, that they should be wondering and wandering.

[01:39:45] Because wondering and wandering can lead to the discovery of truth, to healing, to growth, and so to stigmatize. Wondering and wandering, questioning and doubting, and even a faith crisis is problematic for Alan Mount and for me and I'm guessing for Katie and Chelsea and Nick as well. They continue calling. Let's see, this quote doesn't allow for that possibility. In essence, it says, don't you dare break your covenants. God is more important than your spouse. This can be a helpful message for some, but we've seen firsthand that marriages can and do crumble when God and covenants are used as a wedge and to create unbridgeable gaps between spouses.

[01:40:38] In my opinion, and this is Alan Mount speaking. In my opinion, this level of information control points to the church acting more like a corporation than a church led by Jesus Christ. So I just want to thank Alan Mount for taking the time to share this information. I also want to thank the original author of one of these six articles that was willing to talk to Alan Mount off the record. The fact that these authors have to talk off the record and are afraid to go on the record about what their relationship with the church is like and what the editorial process is like in and of itself is a red flag that they're dealing with an organization where they don't feel safe being open and honest about their experiences.

[01:41:19] You know, I want people who I interview on Mormon stories to leave saying, I had a great experience with John. Yes, you know, there were problems. Sometimes he made a mistake, sometimes he went too far. But overall, I felt respected and loved and I want them talking about that experience. I encourage them to because I want people to know they can feel safe interacting with me. In this case, people who write essays for the church are afraid to talk publicly about their experience writing for the church and want to remain anonymous so that the church and its followers don't harm them for speaking out publicly.

[01:41:54] That in and of itself is a red flag. But it's also a red flag, you know, to use this language about covenant breakers. Again, toxic teaching of covenant breaking. When you go through the temple, when you get baptized, you make covenants, but you're freaking eight. You don't know, you don't understand the implications of the covenants you've been making. And there's been no informed consent. You were never taught about the problems with the church. You entered into the church underage without understanding what you were really covenanting to. So that makes the baptism Covenant of an 8 year old not only invalid and lacking informed consent, it borders on abusive or manipulative or coercive.

[01:42:41] But if you talk about the covenants that they make, when you're 18 or 19 going through the temple for the first time, you're not told what covenant you're going to make before you enter in the temple. You got all your family surrounding you. You don't understand that you're going to go into that temple being forced to promise under the intimidation of all your grandma and grandpa and your parents and everyone, you're going to be compelled to covenant to give everything to the church. 10% of your income, your very lives if necessary, to the, the church. These covenants are just, they're, they're outrageous and they're extreme.

[01:43:16] And honestly, those covenants are cult like. When you think about Scientologists covenanting for a billion years to, to, to the Church of Scientology, it's outrageous. And coveting your eternity and your very own lives and 10% of your income to consecrate and build up the church for the rest of your life when you're 18, when you weren't told those were going to be the promises you'd have to make beforehand and with the pressure of everyone around you, that's outrageous. It's abusive and it's invalid and it's irresponsible. And those are the covenants that when the church says don't be a covenant breaker, those are the covenants that the church means when they say you're a covenant breaker.

[01:43:57] So if you just innocently or sincerely lose your faith to frame that as being a covenant breaker, that is terrible. You've got caffeinated John here. But that is outrageous, that is terrible. And I say that for and in behalf of Bourne's brew, that has inspired the caffeine, that has inspired my loving faithful to truth rant for today.

[01:44:24] I want love and healing and kindness and framing this as a covenant breaking issue at all when you lose your faith is evil and harmful and it's divisive. So Russell M. Nelson Dallin H. Oaks quorum of the 1215 General authorities Church Curriculum People stop framing a faith crisis in the framing of covenant breaking and definitely take it out of this article and stop talking to people in mixed faith situations within this context of covenant breakers. That because it infers that people who innocently, sincerely, credibly lose their faith are covenant breakers, it sends a mixed message. Love and accept them and respect their decision and their covenant breakers.

[01:45:12] F that it's terrible. So stop it. You know, we need to stop that. So you know. Thank you, Alan Mount. Thank you, Katie Mount. Support marriage on a tightrope. Support their podcast. Give them money. Donate to them. It's a nonprofit. Bill Real oversees it. And they need your support. Katie and Alan Mount do it out of the kindness of their heart. They get paid a pittance. They're saving so many families. Donate to Alan and Katie Mount. And of course, if you are a woman, and if you are a woman who is questioning your faith or doubting your faith and or if you're looking for support.

[01:45:51] Chelsea Homer leads this amazing group support group called Faith Journey meetups. It's got 3.1 thousand members and it can have 3.1 thousand and one members if you join. And the most, the greatest thing that progressive and post Mormons need is community. They need support and Faith Journey Meetups along with waca, along with the Thrive Meetup groups, along with Oasis, along with the, along with the Mormon spectrum support groups that you can find@mormonspectrum.org or com. You know, we need more support groups, especially now that Covid is declining. We need to get back to having support groups. You need support, go to Faith Journey Meetups. If you're a woman, go to any of these other support groups, waca, wherever, to get the support you need.

[01:46:43] And Alan, Katie Mount, we love and support you. Chelsea Nakomra, we love and support you. And so that's Alan's statement. And thank you for that statement, Alan. Now let's kind of move towards wrapping up this episode by reading these final three essays. We aren't going to spend too much time, but in this fourth article, maintaining hope and keeping your marriage strong, name is withheld. I think it's withheld because the author wasn't super comfortable potentially with it. We don't know, we don't know which article of these six, but, but if Chelsea's experience holds true for these six articles, I could imagine that as an Incentive for this author.

[01:47:27] Again, if this author felt uncomfortable again, Alan and Kate Allen could have been talking about any of the six articles. I just want to make that clear. But the name has been withheld. We can only speculate as to why.

[01:47:40] And and here are some of the comments. So the first thing that I thought was amazing that I wanted to tout is look at this beautiful multiracial photo. We all know that for many, many years in the church that the church openly taught against mixed, mixed race marriages, mixed race relationships. And as I understand it, even now in the church there's still curriculum that quotes apostles and general authorities saying stick to your own race, don't marry outside your race and it's just a hateful, odious, terrible doctrine. And look at this beautiful photo in this article. You've got clearly a mixed race couple hugging and embracing.

[01:48:27] And I think that's a nice visual. You know, even if the church still has a ways to go on its curriculum, it goes on to talk about three lessons that have kept their marriage strong in spite of a faith crisis. And basically this article is shared from the standpoint of the husband who is the believer. And then Megan name has been changed, is the non believing spouse. And it talks early about the believing husband worrying about his non believing wife, being angry, being sad, being frustrated, wondering what to do, panicking is the marriage going to be over? And I'll just read some from the article.

[01:49:07] It says, you know, after the panic, after the sadness, it says but since that day several years ago, not only has that ice between us thawed, but our marriage has actually thrived and blossomed into something I didn't know was possible.

[01:49:25] So again, what I loved about this opening quote is it is saying maybe not as explicitly as the author intended, depending on who this author was and whether they this got edited heavily. But it is saying that a mixed faith marriage led to their marriage thriving and blossoming into something that they didn't know was possible. And that includes possible as a believer. So the church to me is saying here that a mixed faith marriage made their marriage better than is ever possible. And that's a great message in my opinion.

[01:50:02] I really, I really appreciate that and I really am grateful for it. Lesson number one is look for opportunities to connect. Natasha, Alfred Parker and I have been preaching this gospel for years. It's so great that the church is now embracing it. What we've been teaching people in mixed faith marriages, they've been coming to us now for over a decade and we tell them a mixed faith marriage is an opportunity to improve your marriage. Because in a traditional Mormon marriage, intimacy and emotional intimacy and vulnerability are not what's emphasized. What you do is, is you follow the gospel, serve in the church, have kids, be successful in your career, serve the church and focus on living the best Mormon life as you can.

[01:50:50] But you're never taught to have emotional intimacy. You're never taught to be vulnerable. You're taught to be perfectionistic and to put on your best face for each other and for the church, and to hide and pretend you don't have weaknesses and to keep them secret and to shame each other if either of you is caught doing something that you shouldn't do. None of this leads to intimacy and increased growth. And if you really want to understand what Natasha and I have been talking about for years, go to mormonfaithcrisis.com, google the Thrive Retreats, and go to the section on healthy marriage on emotional intimacy. And you can see a whole retreat around this idea that we've been sharing for years on healthy emotional intimacy.

[01:51:32] And we learned this from Brene Brown, who is the real prophet, seer and revelator here, who has always been telling us that vulnerability and emotional intimacy leads to better connection. And a mixed faith marriage is an invitation for people to say, this is what I doubt. This is what I don't believe. This is what I do that isn't in line with the church. These are my behaviors. I sometimes drink coffee. I sometimes, you know, maybe I masturbate, or sometimes I've looked at porn, or sometimes I think about other women or other men or, you know, sometimes I have doubts or questions and I'm. Sometimes I look at other people or whatever it is, whatever your vulnerabilities are, whatever you're ashamed of, whatever makes you feel sad, being open and honest about it.

[01:52:16] Sometimes I don't want to pay tithing. Sometimes I think the church is racist or sexist or homophobic. That can lead to a. If you allow it, if you take out the shame, the judgment, the fear, talking about those types of things can lead to connection. It can lead to vulnerability and emotional intimacy that can lead to making your marriage better than ever before.

[01:52:39] And traditional orthodox marriage does not lead you to that. But a mixed faith marriage can. If you have the right support, if you read the right books, if you have the right coach or therapist or go to the right workshop or retreat, or you listen to a podcast like Marriage on a Tightrope, like Mormon stories like the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis, like Natasha Alfred Parker, you can make a Better marriage. And it's connection. It's all about connection. And so yes, I'm super grateful that the Mormon Church is now starting to teach about connection. I wish that they would credit the people that, you know, are the pioneers.

[01:53:18] Like, how amazing would it be for the Church to quote Brene Brown in a Liahona article or in General Conference? Of course it's a woman, so that's a problem. The Church doesn't like to quote women. It really only likes to quote apostles, dead or living, who are white and who are named. What if it quoted more women? And what if it even quoted non Mormon women? Freaking quote Brene Brown here.

[01:53:41] She deserves some credit here. Quote Natasha Alford, Parker, whoever. Like just quote the people that have been leading the message here. So it talks about connection. It says one of the key factors of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is connection. When your spouse comes to you with questions or concerns about the Gospel, it gives you the opportunity to strengthen your trust and connection with each other because they obviously love you enough to tell you about whatever is weighing on them.

Advice for Navigating Mixed Faith Marriages

[01:54:12] Instead of seeing differing beliefs as a marriage ending problem, realize that your spouse is sharing with you feelings that are difficult not only for you, but also for them. Responding with love and respect can help take what is clearly a hard situation and allow us to bring about more good than if we were to react negatively or harshly.

[01:54:37] This is a message that we've been wanting the church to teach forever. Look at a faith crisis as an opportunity to connect. It's an opportunity for trust and connection. Don't freak out if your spouse loses their faith. Listen to them, share your feelings, understand them, respond with respect, and don't react negatively or harshly. So again, if we talk about Weaponizing for Love and healing these articles, if you are a non believing spouse, you can give this to your spouse, your parents, your children, whoever, and say, your job is to listen to me with love, to respect me, to not respond negatively or harshly. This is your church telling you this.

[01:55:22] So whatever conversations we have, it's our job to listen to each other. It's our job to respect each other. It's our job not to be negative or harsh with each other. It is super important and that's what the church is encouraging its believing spouses to do. It goes on to say, if your spouse is struggling with the church, it can bring a new beginning that allows you to examine and deepen your own beliefs, faith and connection. You can also take time to ask your spouse what they do believe and establish more understanding between you. Take Time to listen to them from a place of love.

[01:56:01] This is huge because now all of a sudden it's saying as the believer ask, listen to your spouse, ask them why they do and don't believe certain things. What do you believe? Why did you stop believing the things you don't believe anymore? And the believer is supposed to listen, seek to understand and love. My motivation for Mormon stories from the beginning has always been first and foremost to awaken as many Mormons as possible to the truth of the Mormon Church. Not to get them to leave, but to have them be able to engage the Mormon Church with informed consent. Knowing the real Joseph Smith, knowing the true church history, knowing the problems in social justice with the church and the way the church harms people, and then deciding if they want to engage with the church and if so, at what level.

[01:56:50] And this is incredible because now believers are being told, just like Patrick Mason, your job is to listen and empathize and understand. And the more believing Mormons that sit down to listen and love and understand their non believing family members is in effect going to expose them to the historical truths about the church, the problems with the church, to all of that stuff. And it's going to in the end make it so that they can learn the truth about the church. And then the believers can engage the church from their own values with fully informed consent. And this is the gateway to that. So that's why I'm celebrating these essays and that's why I want you to encourage these, these articles to be shared with believers.

[01:57:43] High, low and everywhere. They're being told to listen and love. I'll go on. It says, choose to evaluate what's working in the marriage, what's not working, what do we want to do or think differently. This is positive in the sense that it's basically saying fight for your marriage. Remember the good focus on what's working, focus on what you have in common and, and, and fix the things that aren't working and figure out how we can do differently. In a sense, it's basically saying, fight for your marriage, believer. Don't divorce your spouse over this. I wish it said find a competent, you know, therapist or coach or workshop or retreat to help you through all this because there are many.

[01:58:31] But you know, this is a step in the right direction for sure. I love. I asked Elder Holland to tell believing spouses to not divorce their spouses over this. And this isn't directly saying that, but indirectly it's saying fight, fight for believers, fight for your marriages. Which in essence says, you know, don't divorce them for their non belief. And then finally, it's basically saying, lesson three, consider Heavenly Father's perspective. I'll read a quote from that. We can focus so much on our own perspective regarding an issue that it consumes every other good thing in our lives.

[01:59:08] But we can change our perspective and see hardships or challenges. Like a spouse leaving the church as an opportunity for growth and notice the other goodness around us. It goes on to say, we knew before we came to the earth that we would face challenges. But God has affirmed that all things can work together for our good if we follow him and keep his commandments. Of course, again, there's the mixed messages there. But in the end it's saying, be positive. Good things can come from this. Don't see it as this terrible, catastrophic thing. And it says, challenges can be a blessing.

[01:59:42] So it goes on to say, but as I prayed for help and turned to the Savior, I thought about how much I loved my wife Megan. I felt a rush of love and gratitude and said, megan, I want to be married to you. I love you and I choose you. But if you want to leave, I understand. I would be heartbroken, but I would understand. Okay, there's a little bit of guilt trip in that quote. But overall, how many of us have not wanted the church to basically teach this idea of marry the person, not their testimony. Marry the person, don't marry their membership in the church.

[02:00:19] Marry the person, See the person. If there is a Jesus, if there is a God, they see the person, not the membership, not the church activity. Spouses should love their spouse, not their church activity or their church obedience. And the church is openly encouraging the believing spouse to love the person, not their beliefs or their church activity or their membership. And who hasn't wanted that? How is that not a huge hallelujah for people? And so I just want to, you know, I just want to applaud the church for this article. And here's where Jeffrey R. Holland steps in. I'm glad to see him reflected here in my mind's eye, in my hope's eye.

[02:01:05] Elder Holland had some positive influence on these articles. I want that to be true. Cause I wanna believe that he listened to me and cares. And it's basically saying, remember, God is on your side. He is not an angry, vicious God trying to trip you. He is for you, not against you. He is your father. He is anxious to do everything possible to bless you. He hears your prayers and desires to make your life all that it can be. Again, this is sort of fighting the sad heaven mean retributive God idea. It's basically trying to help non believer helping believers who are still in the church not lose hope to have them not want to leave the church because of their mixed faith marriage.

[02:01:43] Because let's face it, a mixed faith marriage is in so many instances a gateway to the family leaving the church. Because who wants to sit in a Mormon church where a tent will eternal families are taught 24 by seven and you're continually reminded as a believer that your marriage isn't going to be an eternal one, that you're not going to be with your partner in the afterlife and that your family is going to be broken. So you know, it's a bit of a bummer that Elder Holland is focusing on the sad heaven idea here to try and protect the church and keep its believers in.

[02:02:17] But you know, I do appreciate a message of hope and encouragement and trust and I do think that's also the intent. And of course this quote by Russell M. Nelson at the end about covenant breakers, Alan Mount already talked about that. That's problematic. I wish that wasn't there.

Articles Five and Six: Hope and Practical Steps

[02:02:36] But that's kind of our review of this fourth article. I hope, I hope you found that useful. There's two more articles that we just want to hurry and cover. These articles are gonna be shorter. Article number five is questions to ask yourself before you talk about less active members. And I just wanna say this is a huge article. When if you went and saw my, you know, my presentation why People Leave the Church and how youw Can Help. I think it was a groundbreaking Mormon Stories podcast episode.

[02:03:12] I did it back in 2006, 2007 timeframe. It was basically one of my first YouTube videos and I basically worked hard to lay out the myths of the believing Mormons hold against non believing people who leave the church that they never believed in the first place that they just wanted to sin, you know, that they, that they were angry, that they just got offended somehow that stereotypes about believing Mormons was super harmful. Well guess what? This article is directly intended to attack the negative stereotypes about people who leave the church and you should use it as a missile for love and healing and growth and healthy relationships in a positive way.

[02:03:56] Because let's read from basically talks about Sydney Squires writes that she remembers being in church setting in seminary where less active members were disparaged or inactive members were disparaged that they didn't search enough for hard answers. I'll just read from it. I don't remember exactly what comment in seminary made me start crying. But maybe it was, you know, less active members just didn't search hard enough for answers or the consensus that they'd all been deceived. Maybe it was the comparison of former members to people in the midst of darkness, or the implication that there was no hope for them unless they speedily returned to church.

[02:04:41] The author of this article, Sidney, who I command and appreciate, goes on to write, one of these comments was the breaking point and I burst into tears. I didn't leave class. I just sat in my desk and cried. I was 15 years old. My dad had left the church 13 years before.

[02:04:59] And Megan goes on to write, I wish I could say that one seminary class was the only time I've heard comments like this. But discussion about less active members seemed to be everywhere. And again, I just can't applaud this enough. They are head on tackling this negative stereotyping of people who leave the church and don't believe anymore. And they go on to list several tips and without excessively dwelling on these, I'm gonna read them. Tip number one. Remember that there are good people everywhere, whether they are active or less active members of the church or or not members at all.

[02:05:40] Non members. It can be easy to use us them language and moralize the decision of others to stop believing or participating. But remember, we don't know all the circumstances surrounding their choice to become less active. You can use this article in church when anybody disparages people who leave the church or infers that people who are in the church are better or talks about mists of darknesses. You can now quote a church article from a church publication on a church website that says we shouldn't talk about people who leave the church this way or about non members. This is huge.

[02:06:17] We need to use goes on to say do I use general comments? And the tip is keep an eye out for innocent but exclusionary questions. For example, in young women's classes we were often asked to share stories about how our lives were affected because our fathers held the priesthood. It only takes a little rewording to make a world of difference and include everyone. Perhaps it would have been better to ask something like how has your life been affected by the power of the priesthood?

[02:06:46] One of the things that I liked about this is maybe it's even a nod to this idea that the women have the priesthood as well as men. I do think the church is moving in that direction of teaching that women have priesthood power as well as and that's one way to avoid this problem of patriarchy and Only men holding the priesthood. The church is pivoting now in its marketing and rebranding and in its product redevelopment. To say that everybody has priesthood power. That's partly what's being done here. But also it's basically saying teachers be more sensitive to people in the audience. Part member families, non members, because you make people feel awful.

[02:07:23] And you shouldn't just generalize and stereotype people. I think that is a positive thing. Number three, how do I respond when somebody says that they have less active family members? Here's the tip. Having less active loved ones is not nearly as uncommon as it used to be.

[02:07:44] I'll say that again. The church is losing members in droves. And so now there's an epidemic of not only entire families leaving wards in multiple entire families leaving wards in a given year, but there's now an epidemic of part member families now that there are, you know, there's a faith crisis pandemic, to kind of borrow the COVID pandemic metaphor. Having less active loved ones is not nearly as uncommon as it used to be. And people have come a long way in their responses to all sorts of families and circumstances. We can be understanding and offer heartfelt responses that won't minimize people's current experiences. I love that idea of being more empathetic and responding with love and empathy regarding less active families.

[02:08:31] Not making them feel like we're sorry for them, not making them feel like they're lesser than or that they're broken. But it's just like, hey, people believe all sorts of things. People leave the church. That's what happens. It's neither good nor bad, it's just what happens. We respect everyone's path. Everyone is seeking truth. God loves everybody.

[02:08:49] And a part member family is no different than a fully member family. And a non member family is no different than a fully member family. God loves everyone. All paths are valid. This is the direction of the church. And these articles help reinforce that idea. And then again, a fourth idea is, am I empathetic towards eternal uncertainty? And that is just a really important thing that I've already talked about. Sad heaven is a loser. And truthfully, in truth, the eternal family doctrine is a loser. It's more divisive and it creates more sadness in the end than it does happiness. And so what you're seeing the church do is pivot to this new teaching of eternal uncertainty where they're teaching its members to say, who knows what happens in heaven?

[02:09:35] Maybe people who don't believe will come back to the church. Maybe God loves everyone. Maybe all people will be reunited in heaven. We don't know. And they're encouraging members to think more flexibly. Now I'm again alert. This is in the church's self interest to do this because people are leaving in droves because of sad heaven and the toxic teaching of eternal families. So yes, it's, you know, throwing a flag. It is in the church interest to teach this out of self preservation and interest. But it's also healthy for the believing members to have a more flexible view of God, of heaven, of judgment, of families.

[02:10:13] And it is a pathway to people loosening their orthodoxy within Mormonism and even sometimes leaving the church, which is their personal decision. I wish the church would just scrap eternal families altogether and just say, hey, we got a new revelation. Everyone goes to heaven. God loves everybody. Heaven is just not a sad place. But we're not there yet. But we're making baby steps. The church is now making baby steps in that direction.

[02:10:41] Number five, do my lessons and comments include or exclude others? It basically has the author saying, I eventually realized that I could soften a negative discussion by piping up and saying, oh, I disagree. My dad is less active. And almost immediately people's comments became kinder and many even backtracked on their previous insensitive statements. Hallelujah. The church is encouraging disagreement and even respectful disagreeing discourse within the Sunday school or seminary or gospel doctrine context. And they're inviting you to use these articles as ammunition or evidence to stop hate speech, anti transgender speech, anti homophobia speech, anti, you know, non believing speech, anti demonizing people who leave the church.

[02:11:37] You can now use these articles to say, I disagree, less active people or people who leave the church are good people, they're moral people, they're kind people. And stop using hateful rhetoric. I just can't emphasize how positive this is. This is huge and I think this is really important.

[02:11:58] So we need to see it as a breakthrough. In the end, it's saying, let's see through each other's eyes. It's including Christlike empathy. And again, I want to congratulate Sidney Squires, who is an author, tennis player and avid baker, who is currently studying English at byu. This is a BYU student that wrote this article, Sidney Squires. If you hear this, if you hear my congratulations, I offer to take you, if you're married, your friends, your family, whoever. I offer to take your loved ones out to dinner. I'm buying. This article's amazing. Kudos to you. Thank you for this article and kudos to the Mormon Church for sharing this but it's only going to be effective if Mormons share these articles and live them.

[02:12:48] So those of you that still have Mormon believing family and friends or that are still attending church, this is an invitation to use these articles to change the culture of the church in a direction that blesses and helps everyone, please do it. And again, you got Caffeinated John today. But hopefully Caffeinated John that isn't spewing hate and divisiveness, but that is spewing love and acceptance and tolerance and pro family and pro inclusivity and who's trying to be fair and balanced, loving and appreciating the good things, the good churches, changes the church is making and and also still willing to critique we are now. You guys have hung in with me.

[02:13:30] We are now here at the final essay of of these six essays. Is that right? We just did Questions to Ask yourself yes. The final one is what you can do when others don't believe by Hannah Jacobson. And again, this is a laundry list of 8 things that you can do when others don't believe.

[02:13:58] And it starts out by saying it seems like these days more people are experiencing a change in faith or moving away from religion altogether. For those like me who have grown up greatly valuing religion or have chosen religious activity for their own life, having friends or family members who make different choices or who choose to leave a once beloved church can be confusing, scary, and even foundation shaking. I would know. I've gone through some of this myself. Here are the tips. Number one Believing people need to know their division. Their decisions are about them. That's point number one. And again, this is sort of a theme you're going to see more.

[02:14:36] I do me, you do you. Your decisions are about you. My decisions are about me. And I love it. If you read right in there, we shouldn't make assumptions about why people choose to leave. And oftentimes there is more to it than meets the eye. Hallelujah. Empathy for people leaving the church. Stop believing the stereotypes. Use this article to educate and inform members that they need to stop judging or stereotyping people who leave the church. It goes on. It's okay to process fear or grief, but we don't have to be afraid. Fine. It's teaching emotional maturity. It's teaching, you know, leaning into your emotions, having fear, accepting fear, accepting grief.

[02:15:24] But it's also saying don't be afraid. And I'm just gonna say that this is again the the teaching about sad heaven. It's basically trying to reteach Mormons about sad heaven and say, who knows what happens in the end?

[02:15:39] The loving eternities, don't worry about it. Just do your part by loving and praying. And I would add, you know, being obedient to the church and being a good disciple of Christ and a loving heavenly father will work things out in the end. I think that's a step in the right direction. Step number three is be a good listener and respectful to other people's beliefs. Now, again, this is huge because so many members of the church in the past have said, look, have your faith crisis, but I don't want to hear anything about it. And I'm going to cut you off and I'm going to ignore you and I'm not going to talk to you about the problems, why you lost your faith at all.

[02:16:21] This is huge because it's saying believers need to listen to non believers, which means you can tell them why you stop believing. You can tell them about polygamy, polyandry, peepstones, Book of Abraham, racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, racism, all the stuff you can now tell them about it. Now, I think there are ways to do that that will lead to healthy, effective conversations. And there are ways to do that that will polarize, do the create the backfire effect and destroy relationships. So go to the Gift of the Mormon Faith crisis dot com. Go to Marriage on a tightrope. Learn the effective ways. There's an entire episode or two on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis about how to speak to believing family and friends.

[02:17:04] There are others about how to teach your children during a crisis of faith. Healthy communication is huge. You want to do this in a healthy way. But this is an invitation for believing Mormons to listen to people who have lost their faith. It's huge. It's groundbreaking. And it's saying to be to listen with respect of their beliefs and their non beliefs. And so I have to congratulate this. And this is why I called Patrick Mason, one of the most dangerous Mormons in the Mormon church. And I don't mean that to be cheeky or to be hyperbolic. What I meant by that is Patrick's not dangerous per se.

[02:17:44] Empathy is dangerous. When you know a gay person, you tend to want to be affirming of them, which makes you want to question the church's LGBTQ policies. When you know a transgender person or a non binary person, all of a sudden you have sympathy for the transgender experience or the non binary experience like you never had before. Empathy leads to understanding and love and kindness, which then in Turn. Makes you wonder, why is the church teaching false history? Why is the church transphobic or homophobic or racist or sexist or whatever? The thing is, oh, I met a feminist. She's amazing. Or a feminist. He's amazing.

[02:18:25] Empathy is going to lead to people having doubts and questions and ultimately leaving the church. So it is to the church's credit that they're encouraging listening and empathy because they're doing so, I believe, at their own jeopardy in many instances. But the truth is they have to do this because they're having so much defection, so many people leaving the faith that, you know, they have no choice because people are leaving in droves. So I ultimately congratulate the Mormon Church for doing what we've asked them to do forever, which is to show listening and to love and show empathy for people who have lost their faith.

[02:19:07] Again, a couple other points. All are born with the light of Christ. Again, this is an ultimately inclusive message. And again, listen to this quote. Leaving the church doesn't mean that someone no longer believes in morals or kindness or service or in being a good person. In fact, some of the best examples of selflessness in my life are people who aren't sure about God or religion, but have a strong belief in the goodness of humanity. And again, I don't love the light of Christ framing. But how amazing is it that the church is now teaching you can leave the church and still be a moral and a good person?

[02:19:47] That should be obvious. It should have never. Nothing ever should have been suggested otherwise. But yay to the church for now. Explicitly teaching, believing members to believe that all are good, all could be good or moral in or out of the church, and all are loved by God. Again, point five, our job is to love them. How is that not amazing? Point six, Listening goes a long way. Again, more listening. It says don't try and fix them. And it says, but sometimes it's more helpful to lend a listening ear and show them kindness and respect as they share their feelings, be respectful of their thoughts.

[02:20:26] This can help you both learn from each other and maintain a relationship where you can communicate openly. You have to be careful about talking about truth claims and problematic history and polyandry and Peepstones and Book of Abraham. But that's the opening. They're now supposed to listen to you. This is when you can tell them why you lost your faith, how you lost your faith, what were the things you've learned?

[02:20:50] Transgender people, LGBT people, racism, sexism, homophobia. And that helps them start learning the truth about the church and how is that not positive? And they're supposed to be respectful to your thoughts. It's fantastic. Number seven, you should know. They should know you love them no matter what. Which means they have to love you as a nonbeliever and treat you kindly. Trust them and make room for them to belong again instead of alienating people who lose their faith, instead of isolating them, instead of cutting yourself off from them. Now the church is explicitly teaching that that you need to make room for them. Believers wards need to make room for believers and non believers alike.

[02:21:39] Make them feel loved, make them feel like they belong. How is this not an incredibly positive development? And it goes on to say it's all this is President Thomas S. Monson. It's always our duty as disciples of Christ to love others as he did. We are all spirit children of our loving heavenly Father and as such our brothers and sisters. As we keep this truth in mind, loving all of God's children will become easier. And again, kudos to Hannah Jacobson. She grew up in Washington. She has a degree in neuroscience from BYU and is currently pursuing a master's degree in occupational therapy at the University of Utah.

[02:22:18] She lives in Utah with her husband, daughter and new baby son. Hannah Jacobson, like the others of all the authors of these articles, I will buy you and your husband and your children a dinner of your choice. I wanna meet you, take you out and to dinner, lunch, brunch, whatever. And thank you for this amazing article.

[02:22:40] We don't know how much the Church changed this, but we are just grateful that this article exists and we're grateful for this contribution. So to close I am over the moon grateful and excited about these articles. I want to thank the Mormon Church for, for releasing them. I want to thank the authors for writing them. I just want to celebrate this as a moment of positivity.

[02:23:15] It's baby steps because they they still aren't sharing these articles in printed publications. So we need that Mormon Church number one, thank you for doing this. Positive steps forward. Huge positive steps forward. Number two, we need you to go further but keep going. But, but we need these in printed publications. We need this in the church curriculum. We need this to be shouted from the rooftops. We need these teachings in seminary and institute. We need these teachings in the manuals. We need entire lessons on this how to love and embrace and include non believing family and friends.

[02:23:57] Lessons on why they lost their faith. Lessons on transphobia and homophobia and racism and sexism. Lessons on feminism and why it's important in the church. We need lessons on all of that. We need the curriculum to be changed and we need General Conference addresses and multiple like. Like reduce the number of talks about pornography and about sadness of people leaving and about exclusive stuff and stuff that doesn't matter. Starting with this. April 2021. This is your chance have General conference talks that teach these principles. Because if you have general Conference talks over and over again with as much as you used to talk about porn, with as much as you used to lament homosexuality and people being gay and lesbian and fighting same sex marriage, with as much of talks as you used to have about how sad it is wringing your hands about people leaving in the church, have that number of talks about loving and supporting and including and affirming and listening to and supporting people who leave the church.

[02:25:05] And I will consider ending my podcast, or at least parts of my podcast, because listen to me Mormon Church. I want to make you a promise and I mean this very sincerely. Jeffrey R. Holland Dallin H. Oaks, Russell M. Nelson if you are teaching the Mormon Church its true history thoroughly and without gaslighting, without contextualizing, there's no need for me or Bill Real or Radio Free Mormon or any of us. And if you're teaching love and inclusion and healthy principles of healing and growth and vulnerability and healthy marriages, there's no need for me and Natasha over Parker to keep doing workshops and retreats. There's no need for that.

[02:25:47] There's no need for marriage on a tightrope to be teaching the principles of how to deal with a mixed faith marriage if you are teaching them every Sunday and in General conference. So I promise you Mormon Church, you get healthy enough, teaching the truth, teaching empathy, healing families, I, John the Lynn, will go away.

[02:26:06] I will stop doing Mormon stories. I will stop doing workshops and retreats for you. And if I stay in this realm at all, I will do it just for post Mormons. Because you'll be covering the territory for those who are still active in the church and will have everything covered. So that's my commitment to you, Mormon Church. That's my commitment to you. I mean it. You teach the true history. You teach healthy healing and growth, healthy psychological principles, healthy teachings of mental health, healthy marriages and empathy and love and support. You dispel all the negative stereotypes for people who leave the church and you teach inclusion and love and support for those who leave the church and you encourage these families to stick together and have healthy marriages.

[02:26:52] I will go away from you. I will leave you alone. You've got a long way to go, but you've made your first baby steps Mormon Church, and I make you that promise. I want to personally say, Jeffrey R. Holland, in my heart's heart, in my hope you had something to do with these six articles. You listened to me back in 2008 or 2009. Ten, you heard me. You cared about the families that were being torn apart. And if that's true, Elder Holland, I want to personally thank you for listening. Yeah, I'd love it if you drop me a note.

[02:27:27] That would be amazing. But thank you, Elder Holland, for listening to me. If you listen to me, there is one other shout out that I have to make today that is really important and it's to Sam Young. Because there is a really important point in one of these articles that I have missed. And this is kudos to Sam Young. And let me just share with you, let me just share with you this, this part that Sam Young deserves credit for and that those who fought with the Protect Children deserve credit for. And the church frankly owes Sam Young an apology. But this is a groundbreaking part of this essay.

[02:28:18] So here, here's an example. Back on the essay or back on the article Maintaining Hope and Keeping youg Marriage Strong, it talks about this situation in a mixed faith marriage of a believing spouse wanting their kids to be interviewed by a bishop and a non believing spouse being terrified that a believing bishop is going to question their kids about do you masturbate? When do you masturbate? A 12 year old girl is going to be harangued about masturbation. A 16 year old boy is going to be harangued about masturbation and pornography. And a non believing spouse is usually terrified about this. And they actually include in an article this exact scenario, which is one that I and Sam Young and so many other people have been fighting for, that the whole protect Mormon Children, LDS children, Sam Young was fighting for that.

[02:29:08] The church excommunicated Sam Young over. Now they're, they're excommunicating Sam Young. Excommunicating Sam Young and including his heartfelt suggestions in their curriculum. And I'm just going to read it now as a tribute to Sam Young. It says, for example, when we first started having discussions about faith, one of Megan's concerns was around our children having priesthood interviews without one of us present. We started by asking what's working and we agreed that we both love our children and care about them. We both want what is best for them. We want them to progress and to grow and we reestablish the fact that we are on the same team again, Natasha and I.

[02:29:56] Natasha over Parker and I for 10 years have been teaching about build on common beliefs in a mixed faith marriage. The church has listened to that. They've incorporated us. I don't even care that they haven't given us credit. They've incorporated it and they're using that as an example of this question of what to do about interviews. One on one interviews that are often sexually explicit with children by men in a closed room alone. They go on to write. Then we focus on what's not working. Megan didn't feel comfortable with some of the questions that our teenage children would be asked in Bishop's interviews without us there.

[02:30:33] That brought us to question three. What do we want to do or think differently? Megan and I sat down and discussed a plan. We agreed that one of us would be present with our children if they had interviews with members of the bishopric. We spoke to our bishop about this and he was supportive. He reminded us that he had all of our growth and welfare in mind.

[02:30:57] And I just want to say hallelujah. Halla freaking luya. This is a groundbreaking article because number one, prior to Sam Young, prior to Mormon stories, prior to Natasha Offer Parker, the Church did not encourage parents to be with children during interviews. Instead, bishops would interview 12 year old girls one on one and ask them about masturbating and pornography. Totally inappropriate. Asking young women sexually explicit questions alone in a room that led to abuse, sexual abuse, assault, all sorts of horrible things. Sam Young comes on the scene, promotes the Protect LDS Children movement, gets excommunicated for it, but leads a couple marches and literally pushes the Church into a corner such that it starts to allow parents to be involved in interviews.

[02:31:54] And it discourages one on one interviews. Curt McConkey gets involved all these lawsuits. Thank you Sam Young. We owe you and your movement and all your supporters for forcing the Church to discourage one on one interviews. And what's just so beautiful is not only did Sam Young help the Church change its horrible damaging policies around one on one interviews, here we have the Church now in without any credit to Sam Young because they don't ever give credit to its critics that lead to change.

[02:32:27] This is a groundbreaking essay where the Church is now explicitly encouraging parents to allow a parent to sit in an interview with their child such that children aren't groomed for abuse in a patriarchy and such that children are not asked inappropriate or sexually explicit questions and such that believing spouse, non believing spouses can have ammo to encourage their believing spouses to no longer encourage to Give them permission to allow parents to sit in with their children in these interviews. I wish worthiness interviews would go away altogether. But how can we not celebrate this as a landmark accomplishment by the church to be discouraging one on one interviews and to be encouraging parents to sit in interviews with their kids.

[02:33:18] So kudos. Sam Young, we love you. Kudos. The Protect LDS Children movement. Kudos to everyone who marched, everyone who volunteered. Kudos to Natasha Alford Parker who spoke out against this forever. And I'm just grateful to the Mormon Church for changing and again, kudos to name withheld in this article for sharing this example. And kudos to the Liahona and to the editors for saying all this. Again, Mormon Church, you've got a ways to go. I don't mean to be ungrateful. Publish this in your ensigns. Publish this in the curriculum. Teach this in general conference. Spread the word everywhere. Have it be in all the curriculum. Do it as frequently as you used to talk about homosexuals and same sex marriage and doubters.

[02:34:05] Teach this stuff. Get it in your curriculums and in your articles. And I, John Dehlin, will go away, I promise you. I don't want to keep doing this. You're the one making me do this. Thank you to the Liahona, the editors, the authors, the church, Jeffrey R. Holland, whoever else was over curriculum. I just want to say thank you, but also thank you to the people that the church right now doesn't have the graciousness to thank. Thank you Sam Young. Thank you Natasha over Parker. Thank you Bill Real. Thank you Radio Free Mormon. Thank you September 6th. Thank you Julie De Azevedo Hanks, Jennifer Finlayson, Fife Life.

Gratitude, Closing Thoughts, and Call to Action

[02:34:40] Thank you Alan and Katie Mount. Did I say Bill Real and rfm, thank you for all the people that have been excommunicated. Leah and Cody Young, thank you to all the people that have been excommunicated to fight for the church to be true about its history and to come clean and to start to no longer all the people that have come on Mormon stories and I can't name them all, but everyone who's been interviewed on Mormon stories, Chelsea and Nick Homer, everyone who's come on expressed their doubts and fears, you know, been excommunicated for speaking truth and that's come on Mormon Stories to tell their stories that has helped lead to all these problems on the standpoint of the church, all these people seeking truth and frankly, all these people leaving the church because of the amazing stories on Mormon stories.

[02:35:32] Thank you to the people who have come on Mormon stories to tell your stories because you helped make contributions that led to this change. Thank you to Sunstone, thank you to Dialogue, thank you to the Mormon History Association. Thank you to everybody who has helped contribute to an environment that has led to these positive changes. For me, this is a day of celebration. It's a baby step, but it shows you the direction the Church is moving in. And frankly, I could not be happier. So forgive Caffeinated John for giving a positive overall positive episode, thanking the church, celebrating it. And all I can say to you who are nonbelievers, who have left the church, who are doubting, who are afraid of coming out, use these articles as love missiles of healing and growth.

[02:36:20] You share these articles with your believing family and friends, with your bishopric, with your ward, with your extended family. And they have to if they believe in the gospel and if they believe in the Church, be kind about it, be humble about it. Don't create the backfire effect. Don't shove it in their face. Lovingly share these articles with them, educate them about what the Church is saying they need to do. Listen, love, show, empathy, include.

[02:36:48] And I believe that this will lead to positive change in the Church. Thank you for listening today. Thank you for your support. I want to do more episodes to get your feedback. I've got another interview in just a minute that I think is going to be groundbreaking. We're having Roger Hendricks back on Mormon Stories to talk about the Church's changes from a business standpoint. It's basically a management consultant who has worked at the highest levels of the church is going to be analyzing the current state of the church from like a marketing business perspective. As a management consultant, he's gonna explain to us the changes the Church is making in terms of his product development, its marketing, its strategy, and helping us understand the corporate changes that the Church is making to try and not die in a world where religions are dying.

[02:37:39] That's coming next. I hope to livestream it. It's gonna be amazing, but I gotta run. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to the donors. If you like episodes like this, please donate to Mormon Stories. Go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button at the top of the screen and become a monthly donor. We only do this thanks to you. Thanks to all the donors. Thanks to our board of directors that keeps our nonprofit in tip top shape. Thanks to our accountants who keep us alive, our lawyers. We're transparent.

[02:38:07] We are here to help you. Until the Church changes and until there's no longer a need for us. Please donate. Please support us. Thanks to everyone who supports us. We love you. Please be messengers of kindness and truth. And I'll end with this. Ex Mormons, be loving.

[02:38:25] Be kind. Be as compassionate to them as you want them to be to you. This is my final message. Teach them how to teach you. Don't be a jerk, Ex Mormons. Don't be mean. Don't try and take their faith away, okay? Don't treat them like they're inferior. Don't treat them like they're dumb.

[02:38:48] Don't use these articles in negative ways to force them or to compel them or to harm them. Respect their faith, respect their beliefs. Respect them as humans. Be as kind and as compassionate and as Christlike as you want them to be to you. Teach them how you want to be treated. Give them these articles with love and with patience. Be patient with them, be kind with them, be respectful to them. And I promise you, you'll be a good person and you'll get the results you want faster if you lead with kindness. So my last message is be kind. Love everyone. Ex Mormons, show the compassion and love that you want.

[02:39:35] Be good to each other. And I'm signing off. Thank you for your support today. Stay tuned for more Mormon Stories episodes in the days, weeks and months ahead. I love you guys. Thanks for your support. Thanks to Brooklyn Alden for doing the audio video editing. Thanks to Gerardo that does our cinematography. Thanks to all the donors that keep us alive. Love you guys. Be good to each other and we'll see you guys soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody. Love you guys.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.