Introduction and Guest Welcome

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 548

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Kristy Money [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. The date is July 1, 2015, and I am super excited to have as a guest someone that I've been trying to arrange to come on the show for at least a year, maybe more. Her name is Christy Money, and Christy is really amazing. You know, so there's a big old long list of all her amazing accomplishments. She graduated from BYU at age, what, 18? 19.

Kristy Money [00:01:27] 19.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] 19. She went on to pursue a PhD in counseling psychology at BYU, and that's a. It's a pretty solid program there. She graduated with her PhD in psychology at age, what, 25. Which is crazy. I started my PhD at age 40, but that's, you know, PhDs take six, seven, eight years sometimes, so that's an amazing accomplishment. So she's a mental health professional. Her dissertation was on Utah suicide prevention, so we could talk about that. She did a postdoctoral fellowship in a community mental health center. But that's not. Believe it or not, that's not why we're necessarily having her on the show. Christy has been a board member of Ordained Women since how long?

Kristy Money [00:02:20] Since last year.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] Yeah. So quite a long time. She's been supporting Kate Kelly and the Ordained Women sort of movement for so much of that time. But, but she's been involved in. In several kind of what I, I think is really important projects, you know, on, on the Mormon Internet. If you think about my interview with Michael Nicolaison, you know, he was able to mention three or four or five really important projects he's been involved in. Christy has also very much been an activist on the mor.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] So again, she's been part of Ordained Women from the beginning, organizing direct actions. She helped author. She the author to co author those discussions, those six discussions that were written for ordained women. She's been involved in those photo illustrations we've talked about. She authored a book chapter for Covert Book, but it doesn't end there. She created an entire website called Voices of Love, which was a response to the Voices of Hope, sort of a movement led by Ty Mansfield that seemed to be encouraging mixed orientation marriages. And her point is basically to say we should also be encouraging same sex relationships. And so you can go to her website on Voices of Love and see all sorts of profiles of couples that are either gay or lesbian and having very happy relationships.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] But that's not all. Christy is, has written op eds in the Salt Lake Tribune that have been very influential. Two of them have been on polygamy. She's also appeared on the Year of Polygamy podcast with Lindsay Hanson Park.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] And so she knows a lot about history, Mormon history. And she's also written two very important op EDS in the Salt Lake Tribune on racism. So, you know, and so her story is so cool. You know, I think it's important to mention that she's the daughter of a BYU professor and, and that's going to play into the story a bit.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] And, and she's also sort of really important because like Rock Waterman, like Marisa and Carson Calderwood, she's currently facing church discipline from the church. She lives in Georgia and she's been told by her, she, her temple recommend was taken away on Father's Day 2015. So just know a few weeks ago she was put under silence, which means she's not allowed to speak at church. Even if someone, you know, asks her a question in Sunday school, she's not allowed to answer.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] She's been told she has to step down from the Board of Ordained Women, or at least that's her understanding to remain a member of the church. And she's been told that if she violates any of these sort of sanctions and probation that she will be excommunicated. So there is a chance that like others, she'll be sort of one of the next vocal, thoughtful Mormons to be, be excommunicated. She's a stay at home mom. She has two children. She has two on the way.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] She'll be starting her private practice soon. I think this is the longest profile I've probably ever done for any Mormon stories. Guest. But Christy, you're freaking amazing.

Kristy Money [00:05:39] Oh, thanks, John. Highly embellished, but thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Embellished? No, not at all.

Kristy Money [00:05:47] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] But, but hey, I'm super excited. I should also mention you're, you're, you're married to, to Rolf Strawbar, who's also an amazing guy.

Kristy Money [00:05:59] But, and I will, I will take that, that credit that that was an excellent choice on my part. He's a great guy.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] So. So we're going to. We're going to talk about a lot today. We're going to talk about your story, your Mormon story. We're going to talk about the good and bad, about how, you know, your upbringing. We're going to talk about sort of what parts of your life informed your activism in all the various ways. Uh, and. And I think it. It makes sense to talk about what you've learned from your work as a mental health professional. Then I think we should dig into your activism and talk about that. And I think we'll probably want to end with what you're facing now and, and how you feel about it and what your experiences have been with your leaders and what kind of. What you think the future holds. How does that sound?

Kristy Money [00:06:57] Sounds great. And let me just say I think I'm going to be a bit more open in this podcast than I have about my story in a couple of earlier podcasts, just because, you know, you and I were trained the same way, and, you know, I think, you know, you'll be able to handle it. So, you know, I'll. I'll. I'll be. I'll be really open and talk about some tough stuff.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] All right. All right. Well, excellent. Well, let's just start with kind of your. Your. Your Mormon story. Where do you want to start?

Growing Up in a Traditional Mormon Family

Kristy Money [00:07:29] Sure. Well, I'll start with being born of goodly Mormon parents in. In Southern California who. Who really strove. They've tried so hard to create an obedient Mormon family. And it was. Yeah, obedience was incredibly important to them. And so, you know, I had a. I had a lot of consequences growing up for disobeying and defying authority just because I always questioned. I'm one of the questioners, you know.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] So how many siblings? How many siblings?

Kristy Money [00:08:04] I am the oldest of seven.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Oh, seven. Wow.

Kristy Money [00:08:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] And pioneer stock, kind of.

Kristy Money [00:08:10] Absolutely. Yes. All the way back on both sides, which I am, to this day, incredibly proud of.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] So tell me a bit about your dad and just a tiny bit about your dad and then your mom.

Kristy Money [00:08:21] Sure. My dad, he's a great guy. He. So he teaches at BYU. He did his PhD in South Carolina, and that's what brought me there. I lived. I. I say I. I'm from there because I. I pretty much grew up there. And so he's. He's very, very obedient. Very, very much a presider in the home.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Was he raised. Where was he raised?

Kristy Money [00:08:48] He was raised in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] Okay. And what did he study? For his PhD business. Okay. He's a. Yeah. And South Carolina's got a good program.

Kristy Money [00:08:57] It's the best.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Like international business, right? Or.

Kristy Money [00:09:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] Okay. Yeah. Okay. And he served a mission and stuff.

Kristy Money [00:09:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] Where did he serve?

Kristy Money [00:09:05] In Japan.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:09:07] So it makes sense. International business.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] Got it. And anything interesting about, like, his parents or his upbringing?

Kristy Money [00:09:13] He had great upbringing. Very orthodox parents who. Whom I love deeply. My. His father passed away recently. My. My grandfather. And that was my first grandparent to pass away. So that was very hard on all of us. Me especially. We can talk more about that later. But yeah, he, you know, I think like, he. Since he didn't have, I don't think many experiences with disobedient daughters or his, like, his sister is wonderful and like, doesn't rock the boat and he only had one sister and I rock the boat. And so I don't think he really knew what to do with me. So.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Okay, so just a real traditional, conservative Utah upbringing and then B school, you know. PhD in business.

Kristy Money [00:10:10] Yeah, yeah. He went to Harvard.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Oh, wow.

Kristy Money [00:10:13] For his Ph.D. for his MBA.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] Oh, wow. Okay. That's amazing. Okay.

Kristy Money [00:10:19] Yeah, he's very accomplished.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] Harvard MBA and then PhD from South

Kristy Money [00:10:23] Carolina from the UC system. And then his first job was at USC.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Got it, got it. Okay.

Kristy Money [00:10:31] The other USC, South Carolina.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Yeah. Okay. Okay, Got it, got it. Okay. All right. Tell us a bit about your mom.

Kristy Money [00:10:38] My mom was born and raised also from a very, very traditional family in Southern California, which in some ways I've noticed can be even more conservative than Utah in a lot of ways. So my parents always teased each other that my mom would say, like, caffeine is, is a sin. You know, don't drink the caffeine. And dad's like, well, Utah Mormons don't have a problem with that. So he would sneak Mountain Dew to me sometimes. And I thought that was just. That was so edgy.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Right.

Kristy Money [00:11:07] Yeah. So she had a very traditional upbringing, has a brother, her dad ended up leaving the church. And. And so, like, I think that had an effect on her mom and on her too, and maybe made them even more orthodox in some ways. But like, the whole. That whole side of the family is incredibly orthodox. I would even say more so than my money side, my dad's side.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] Okay, so. So Southern California conservative, Mormon, upper.

Kristy Money [00:11:46] Very. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Okay, so you, you were the oldest of seven.

Kristy Money [00:11:51] Yes. With a 20 year age gap.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Wow.

Kristy Money [00:11:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Yeah. That shows some commitment. Okay.

Kristy Money [00:11:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] Okay, so tell. So now let's jump into kind of your formative years and what that led To.

Kristy Money [00:12:07] Sure. Well, I mean, most of my formative years, like I said, were spent in South Carolina. And I. I remember I have a few, like, very vivid, transformative experiences for me. And so. And, you know, I love to tell stories. So, like, here's. Here's one.

Kristy Money [00:12:23] When I would go with my dad and my mom to these galas at the university in the very old historic part of town. You know, the Southern pride is. Is really important in South Carolina. And. And so they're showing off just the. The beauty and grandeur that was the South.

Kristy Money [00:12:44] And it always struck me every single time that I would go to these, that all of the patrons were white and all of the staff were black, and they would wear white gloves and tuxedos, just like I would see in Gone with the Wind, for instance. And it was. It never felt right to me.

Kristy Money [00:13:13] And I grew up in a suburb of Columbia, Lexington, which actually is where the Charleston shooter was from. And it was very segregated. It was like white flight area. And so that made me uncomfortable, too. But I benefited from privilege with good schools. And, I mean, it never, like, I never had to worry about, like, being shot in the street or, you know, being profiled, like, as a white woman, like, and it was a white girl.

Kristy Money [00:13:52] I had, you know, in many ways, an idyllic high school experience. And I think my dad had asked me a couple years ago, he's like, well, you know, did we do wrong by raising you in South Carolina? You know, should we have raised you in Utah, where you would have been around a lot of Mormons, like, kind of like, in the. Where did we go wrong?

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Oh, my goodness.

Kristy Money [00:14:11] Oh, yeah. But I'm like, no. I mean, because they were. They didn't think of it in terms of race relations. They actually saw it in terms of, like, well, was it uncomfortable for you to be around so many evangelicals and Protestants and, you know, being Mormon and actually, like, I didn't. I liked that. I liked being prayed over. I mean, it just showed that they cared about, you know, and I like learning about other religions, too. So, no, that wasn't the problem. I think that, you know, learning about other religions is great for everybody to do, but the race relations, that was really uncomfortable for me and uncomfortable about how much I was. How, as a white girl, I didn't have to deal with any of the things that my. That my black peers had to. So.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] So you noticed that from a young age now, you were. You were born after the priesthood ban, is that right?

Kristy Money [00:15:08] Yeah, I was born in 84, so.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] So that was that even on your mind as a kid growing up? Did you even know about it?

Kristy Money [00:15:15] I did. I knew about it. It was really unsettling for me. And I remember my parents, I mean. Cause they talked with me about marriage from a pretty young age, like, getting me prepared for marriage. And they would say things like, well, you know, make sure you marry somebody, someone in your race, because marriage is hard enough as it is, they'd always say, which is it's failed racism. Sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] And so well intended and probably how they were taught.

Kristy Money [00:15:42] So, yeah, it's definitely what they were taught. And so. But that always made me uncomfortable. So, like being the outspoken questioner that I was, I'd always say, well, I'm going to go to Hawaii and marry a Polynesian guy. So whatever, guys. That was my response to that, which wasn't very enlightened either. I was just trying to get under their skin. But, yeah, it was tough in many ways growing up in South Carolina, especially since the flag, the Confederate flag issue first came up when we were living there. And the hatred and bigotry and white supremacists language was, you know, going. Was everywhere when that controversy was happening. So it's been interesting to see that now. And it's. It's like history repeating itself. So.

Early Spiritual Life and Childhood Faith

John Dehlin [00:16:37] Okay, so do you have memories of just being a true believing, unquestioning, fully devoted, you know, youngster in the church?

Kristy Money [00:16:48] Oh, absolutely. Pioneer Day was my favorite holiday. And so it was interesting when I, My, the birth of my first Evie was on Pioneer Day. And so I thought, well, that's, that's fitting given how. How much I loved and still do love that holiday. I, Yeah, I, I said, growing up, I was a questioner. I questioned a lot of things about like, well, why is it this way? Why, you know, why are you punishing me this way, for instance? But, like, I never questioned the church.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:17:23] That was just. That was not on my radar because I'd had very important spiritual experiences that, that were formative for me, like reading the Book of Mormon for the first time and feeling God's unconditional love for me. So I, Yeah, I. That's basically all of my childhood. Or.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] Okay, so. So you're. So you're, you know, your primary and your young women's years, as far as the church goes, you're all in fully believing.

Kristy Money [00:17:54] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] And unquestioning in terms of the church.

Kristy Money [00:17:58] Yeah, yeah. And like my family, we even participated in the Hill Cumorah pageant a few times, and I loved it. And I Mean, I still do. It's kitschy, but I love it. And I was Nephi's wife one of the years, which is, you know, is a pretty big deal. So, yeah, so, no, I've. I'm definitely like, I fit the profile of.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] Did you. Did you study your scriptures as a kid? You know, read, write in your journal? Like, what. What was your spirituality like as a youth?

Kristy Money [00:18:29] Every. Every day I'd read the scriptures, pray day and night. We'd have family devotionals every. Every morning and night too. So before we go to school and then before bed. So, yeah, scriptures and prayers as a family and then my personal study and prayer. And then, yeah, I wrote in my journal a lot. So, I mean, I'm a writer, so it's what I do. And yeah, I still. Sometimes I look back on those journals and look at how I was struggling and had so much, so many worries about my worthiness and wondering if I would ever be good enough, especially since. And I've talked about this in the podcast with Gina, but I felt like a horrible daughter because I was so disobedient.

Kristy Money [00:19:20] And like, my parents would say I was disobedient, disrespectful. So those were my labels. So I wondered, is there any hope for me to ever be accepted in, like, in a community by. By a spouse? Like, if my own mother can't handle me or can't deal with me, can, you know, why would anyone else, you know, because, you know, she gave life to me. You'd think that.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] So you internalize some kind of self doubt or shame a little bit.

Kristy Money [00:19:51] Oh, a lot of shame. And so that's why having this spiritual experience, I did that, that God loved me unconditionally and that I was okay just the way that I was. And I had that experience after reading the Book of Mormon all the way through the first time, actually.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] At what age?

Kristy Money [00:20:09] I think I was 12.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] So you, like, did you knelt down and pray and actually do the prayer?

Kristy Money [00:20:13] I did, I did on Moroni's Promise. And I just. I.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] So you got the witness? You got the witness?

Kristy Money [00:20:21] Yeah, well, I got the witness that I was okay, exactly the way that I was and that to not worry about my parents because God loves me and that things would work out.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] So you were feeling some tension with your parents by age 12?

Kristy Money [00:20:43] Yeah, it started around that. Then 11, 12. That's when I questioned their authority a lot.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] Okay, so you were an authority Challenger from age 12?

Kristy Money [00:20:57] Yeah. Or even. Yeah, a little earlier.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] Is that. Do you think that's just Like a personality type or do you think there were events that, that sort of gave birth to that?

Kristy Money [00:21:08] I think it's mostly temperamental, honestly. And, and my daughter, my oldest, Evie, my mom says she, she has it just like me. So. Yeah, I mean, well, they're definitely experiences. Like. Okay, so I mean, punishment was big in my home and I mentioned to Gina I'd have. Well, yeah, you've studied this too. So overcorrection was huge as a behavioral principle. So like writing sentences a thousand times like, I will not disobey my parents. And then when I didn't do it because I didn't think that the consequence was fair, that I didn't do anything, then it would double and triple and quadruple. So like I'd have like 70,000 sentences and I would have to. I would get grounded.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] 70,000?

Kristy Money [00:21:56] Yeah, at least. Like sometimes it would be even more. No, it was ridiculous. Honestly. I don't think they knew how to handle me or what to do because I was so strong willed. And like, we're not talking about like breaking curfews or things like we're talking like not wanting to do the dishes at a certain time or just like it would start off with just the smallest things that I thought were over punitive and, and. But they were very strict. Like, especially when you have that many kids, you know, you can either take a more relaxed approach or you, you know, you, you hunker down to get, you know that it's like a ship.

Kristy Money [00:22:37] Right. So my parents were, were the more strict end of that. And, and you know, I was taught from a young age obedience is the first law of heaven and never really understood that. So yeah, there was a lot of tension. It was, I think, a mismatch in temperaments too, between my mother and I because she, you know, expects authority, you know, appeals to authority and just wouldn't understand why I would question that.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] So any other quick examples of like strictness in your home? Just to give us a bit more of a sense for some of the, some of the ways that strictness manifested.

Kristy Money [00:23:15] Sure. Well, this is later on, but like clean flicks, like I would want to watch Schindler's List or, Or yeah, Saving Private Ryan. But, but they had a rule like no rated R movies and say, well, it's clean flicked, but it's okay. But they're like, no. And, and I got thrown out of the house for that one because I said, well, it's about content and there's no bad. Anyway, it was, yeah, it was straining At Annette. But. And I realized afterward, like. Oh, that was a silly argument to. Yeah, well, I'm keeping the Sabbath day holy. That was a big one too. Like we'd wear, we'd wear Sunday clothes all day and you know, could just watch the living scriptures. You remember those? The Enemy.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] I loved them. Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:23:58] Yeah, I did too. But we could just watch those and,

John Dehlin [00:24:01] and you'd have to be in your Sunday clothes all day.

Kristy Money [00:24:03] Yeah, most of the time.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] Yep.

Kristy Money [00:24:05] And like can't break the Sabbath by like even swimming in a pool. Like that's, that's breaking it. And yeah, it was, it was just, it was very orthodox and no dating

John Dehlin [00:24:17] to your, what, 16?

Kristy Money [00:24:19] Of course. But I was, I was, I was a nerd, so I wasn't dating anyway, like that there was never a problem with, with boys or anything like that. It was just.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:24:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] And did, and you can not answer or, or just say it's not relevant or whatever, but did, did sexuality play into your young woman experience in any way that you want to talk about?

Kristy Money [00:24:43] Oh, sure, I can talk about that. I was taught and it was really important that I follow the law of chastity. So I mean, I was disobedient in a lot of ways, like questioning my parents punishments, but in terms of chastity, I was afraid. I was super afraid of what would happen if I broke it. So no, I actually, I shut myself down really. Like kind of like, you know, in the Book of Mormon musical, what they make fun of like, like a light switch. Right. So.

Kristy Money [00:25:16] Because like I had, I had gotten the, the chewed gum analogy and, and so I, I never had any problems or tiffs with young women's leaders because I was just like, I was straight arrow in that, in that sense. Like I didn't even date. So. And yeah, my young, my young women leaders, they were just doing their best and they were, they were great people and, and I didn't, at least I didn't get the nail analogy, the nail on the board one. Like I've heard, I've heard that one that's, that one's bad. But no, they, they were just trying their best and I didn't have any problems or encounters with them because I, I was, I was like a nun.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:25:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Okay. Any other, any other thing about your kind of teen years prior to BYU that, that are kind of formative or that might speak to your, your activism later? Did you start any questions or doubts start emerging or any other sort of issues or experiences that could explain why ordain women, why you know, why, you know, Voices of Love why? Concerns about polygamy? Or has that all come from BYU and beyond?

Arriving at BYU and Early Questions

Kristy Money [00:26:29] Well, honestly, besides what I had mentioned about racial tensions in South Carolina, most of it came around byu. Actually, BYU kind of opened me up. It. Really? Yeah. So we can.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] Okay. Okay. So. Okay, so you graduated from high school at what age?

Kristy Money [00:26:47] At 17. I was almost 18.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] And you said you had a ton of AP credits and, and that sort of thing. So you probably started your, your BYU as what, junior? As a junior. Okay.

Kristy Money [00:27:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] And then you said you took how many credit hours this semester?

Kristy Money [00:27:04] Oh, it was crazy. It was 23 to 25 every semester.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] And you double majored so that, you know.

Kristy Money [00:27:11] I did.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] Okay, so talk about how BYU changed you.

Kristy Money [00:27:16] I. Well, so I was an English major at first, and, and so I was very, very liberal. And. And so I, you know, I took.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] Wait, you were liberal or the English major was liberal?

Kristy Money [00:27:27] English department. It's. It's one of the best kept secrets.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] And did you like that about it? Did you, Were you seeking, Were you seeking liberal or did you.

Kristy Money [00:27:35] You know, I wasn't, I wasn't seeking it, but I was, I was just. I won the lottery. I mean, it just came. And so I, Yeah, I took, I took critical literary criticism classes and we talked about deconstruction, feminist deconstructions of literary works. And so that exposed me to feminism. And I remember being in a night class. So it was a class with more, a lot more men and like older men who like, married. And I was just this 17 year old who was new to feminism and everything. But we took, I took a modern British lit night class and we discussed the hours and I just, this is just one of my first experiences with opposition to feminism.

Kristy Money [00:28:19] But like, these guys were like, I wouldn't feel comfortable with my wife reading this book. Like, this is intense stuff. Like, I wouldn't want her to get ideas. And I'm like, what? I don't understand, you know? But I like, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm young and I don't get it, but that's weird. So, yeah, and I had a few other really, really great mentors. One encouraged me to apply for the Rhodes Scholarship, but I was like, well, no, I'm here at BYU to get married, so I can't go to England until I'm married. So I mean that. So that was a missed opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] But you were probably on scholarship, right?

Kristy Money [00:29:00] Yeah, yeah, I was on scholarship. It was full ride. But. And yeah, so I did do a study abroad in London though. And that really opened my eyes too that, you know, the world is big, much, much bigger than, you know, Mormonism. And I remember a kid, I'm a kid, he was, he was a returned missionary, but he was getting upset about going into these cathedrals and saying that there were, you know, well, the spirit's not here and just like saying some demeaning things about it. And even then I like, well, come on, you know, this is sacred to other people. Like, why can't we appreciate it? And I was just in awe of, you know, of St. Paul's and Westminster Abbey. I'd spend my days there, I'd walk there and so yeah, that was a great experience too.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Okay. So traveling, you know, that can cure kind of, can cure one of, of kind of closed minded thoughts. So. So was there anything during those. Your byu four years for your undergraduate. How many years?

Kristy Money [00:30:06] Two actually. Yeah, I was just.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] You double majored in two years. Okay. And, and by the time you were done, had anything really significant happened other than just a general beginnings, awakenings of more progressive thought?

Kristy Money [00:30:25] It was just beginnings really. Okay. Because it was, it was so quick. I mean, and looking back, I wish I had taken more time to, to enjoy and appreciate. And I did that with my PhD, I took an extra year, but, but yeah, for my undergrad it just, it went by so fast.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Okay, okay, so you, you decide to apply to PhD programs. And I just have to say, having been through it, my understanding is PhD programs can be harder to get into than med schools. Like that's super competitive.

Kristy Money [00:30:54] It was.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:30:55] Yes, it was. And I just got, so I got an interview at the clinical psych program and then, yeah, an interview at Counseling Psych. I put most of my eggs in the BYU basket because I wasn't married and wanted to get married, so I wanted to stay at byu. I did apply to a couple other places. I got into Washington State, but I was, But I mean, honestly, BYU's program was better, so.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah. And just for fun, I also interviewed at both clinical and counseling at byu. So.

Kristy Money [00:31:26] Yeah, yeah, just you know what it's like.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So. So you got in and you're, you're pursuing a PhD in psychology. So anything significant in your transformation happened there?

Working at the BYU Counseling Center

Kristy Money [00:31:41] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I mean I should back up when I said that the English department was, you know, the best kept secret. Like I think in many ways so is counseling Psych. They're very open minded. Very. They really helped me deconstruct some of my, some of my privileges, not just my privileges as a white woman, but also as an upper middle class white woman. And I just, and I around that time I had watched that, the Eyes on the Prize series. Have you seen that?

John Dehlin [00:32:20] I love it, love it.

Kristy Money [00:32:21] Yeah, I was just engrossed as part of the multicultural class. And then also. I'll never forget one, just. Yeah, tons of stories. A University of Utah professor was coming over to speak to us, to the counseling psych and clinical psych people.

Kristy Money [00:32:43] She was a gay woman. And there was a lot of controversy. This was in 2007. And so the professors were trying to be like, come on guys, be open minded. And I was excited. But a few of my cohort members, one in particular was like, no, I'm going to boycott this, this isn't right. Like we shouldn't be having to listen to her. And that was, that was, that really hurt because I just didn't understand why he would be so we have such hatred and even know this woman.

Kristy Money [00:33:18] And then, you know, meeting closeted gay friends at BYU and hearing their struggles and then being in co leading group therapy with people who are talking about the pain of, you know, having to not be yourself at byu, it was just, that was hard, it was hard to process. So yeah, counseling psych, they, they, it opened me up even more than my English department.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] Did you do practicums or assistantships at the counseling center then?

Kristy Money [00:33:53] Yeah, all of them. All of them. Until I did. I did my final clerkship in New York City. But no, I was all. So I saw, I've seen like hundreds of BYU students.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] So how many, how many years at the counseling center?

Kristy Money [00:34:05] There's three.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] I just have to say that I happen to know several of the psychologists at the BYU Counseling center and it really is an amazing group of people. I just think Mormons minds would be blown at the level of competence and professionalism and just the caliber of those people there.

Kristy Money [00:34:35] Yeah, absolutely. I can't say enough good things about the counseling center. And I was, I was trained my first year by, by the director, the counseling center. So because I had, I had helped.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] Was Kirk Duer there while you were there?

Kristy Money [00:34:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:34:50] Yeah, I love Kirk.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] And, and also with Buxton and, and Okishi and. And also. Oh, who's the other guy? The guy who's in charge of the internships? I'm, he's my friend. I'm totally blanking. He's Rick Moody. Rick Moody too.

Kristy Money [00:35:07] Rick Moody was my supervisor my second year. So yeah, I had the clinical director the first year Steve Smith and then Rick Moody, my second year.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] And Jan. Did you know Jan?

Kristy Money [00:35:16] Jan Ships,

John Dehlin [00:35:19] the woman? She. She's in Oregon now.

Kristy Money [00:35:23] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] She was a. Okay. You don't know who. Okay. Yeah. Cool people. And so did you ever. Did you ever counsel young BYU male students about masturbation and porn?

Kristy Money [00:35:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] What was that like?

Kristy Money [00:35:39] Well, eye opening. And my supervisor would give me these clients, especially because I was a young woman, and he thought that it would be good desensitization to get used to being around a woman, especially one. And I'll obscure some facts to, you know, protect anonymity, but there was an OCD component to. To masturbation and pornography. And. And he's like. He wouldn't look at women. He couldn't look because he was so ashamed. And so my supervisor, like, he would be great for you, so. Because you'd have to. You'd have to. He'd have to look at you and be in a room with you.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Therapy.

Kristy Money [00:36:23] Yeah. And so. And it went well. Just a lot. Just took some time to get used to me. But it's just. It was. Yeah, I really saw how culturally, the way that men are taught about women, and vice versa, as objects that, you know, contempt you. And so women need to be modest to help them out like that. There's something wrong with that. So, yeah, there was a lot of that. And I had. I remember a client who was wanting to go on his mission, but he couldn't until, like, his bishop said, like, no masturbation whatsoever. And so, like, that was. That was. That was a hard goal. But, yeah, he did it. But, like, I. I still think about him sometimes. Like, how was he doing? Like, was he. Anyway. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Yeah. A lot of. A lot of those situations end up. They just. They. They can stop for a short time, but then when they get on the mission, they often just start right back up again. And then.

Kristy Money [00:37:22] Yeah, I did worry about that.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] Yeah. And then they have to deal with the guilt and the shame and the torment of that. And do they tell their mission president? And. And of course, some mission presidents are fine with it, and others are almost sending people home. And there's such variability in how that's dealt with.

Kristy Money [00:37:38] Yeah. Mission president roulette.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] Yeah. Okay. So. So you. Did you ever counsel any students that. That awakened a concern about feminism then, you know?

Kristy Money [00:37:52] Yeah. Yeah. In fact, like, I. There were a lot of women, some that were in law school and were just feeling overwhelmed by how they were treated differently and then wondering, well, is it going to be like this outside of byu. And I tried to say, well, hopefully not as bad, but trying to work through ways to deal with. To deal with that now.

Kristy Money [00:38:21] So sexual harassment was a big thing. And luckily, I mean, the counseling center, we're equipped. I mean, we were really equipped to call that out and to not say, well, no, this is not normal. But, yeah, that definitely. And married couples, too. We did couples counseling and just watching the dynamics. And so I was single, and also, I had never had sex, so I didn't really understand in the sexual dynamics between couples was, you know, I just knew about, in theory, you know, how, like, men demanding and women feeling like, well, I need to. I need to give this to him. Like, this is my.

Kristy Money [00:39:01] This is what I bring to the marriage that didn't set right. And, you know, I tried to help women reclaim that sexuality. But it was also weird how I had never. Was never married.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:39:17] Yeah. And I was so young.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] Did you have a lot of students with faith crises at the counseling center or. Not that much.

Kristy Money [00:39:28] Yes. Yeah. It usually was tied to adjustment issues, too, because for the first time, they're away from their families, and so then, yeah, they're questioning and. And, yeah, there was a lot of anxiety and depression surrounding that, but luckily, you know, we could tell them, you know, this is the counseling center, we will not report anything to the honor code. And that was, you know, that gave them a huge relief, you know, that they didn't have to be careful because, I mean, yeah, you lose, you get kicked out of school.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] Yeah. And I'm sure there are kids then who broke the law of chastity while BYU students that you had to talk to. Right?

Kristy Money [00:40:06] Yeah. But again, confidentiality. We didn't report it to the honor code, so that was. That was helpful.

Disillusionment and First Acts of Activism at BYU

John Dehlin [00:40:12] Okay, so. So tell any stories that you think that you haven't already told or. Or describe whatever experiences you want to describe that could inform again how those six years, or however many years kind of might have. Might have led to your activism later. Anything else that we haven't talked about or have we covered it?

Kristy Money [00:40:36] Well. Okay. There's just. There's one story when. When we were about. When I was about to leave for New York City, I had. I was planning on. On getting more diversity experiences because, well, you know, Provo is incredibly white, and I just. I really wanted to get out, and I was also.

Kristy Money [00:40:57] I was also serving a service mission for the church. Well, that's a whole other story. But I was writing my dissertation at the time, and so I couldn't leave And I wanted to do more of a service mission like nurses do who are registered nurses. They can serve. And so I thought, well, with my psychology training, surely there's something that I can do, but have to do it locally because I was defending my dissertation. So I did career counseling for LDS Employment Services, which was great. But I also wanted to consider transferring that since I defended my dissertation and I was wanting to go to New York City and so.

Kristy Money [00:41:39] And the employment. The head of church employment said I could transfer to New York. And so anyway, all this to say I was about ready to leave and Dick Cheney was scheduled to speak for commencement.

John Dehlin [00:41:58] Yes.

Kristy Money [00:42:00] BYU. And I participated in the alternative commencement and the peaceful protest that we did where we all were white and, you know, protested Halliburton and torture and. Yeah, so that definitely was, you know, was an important experience.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] The one led by Ashley Sanders, was it?

Kristy Money [00:42:25] It was Ashley and Kate and.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] Okay, so you were part of all that, but you were a PhD student at the time?

Kristy Money [00:42:31] I was, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:32] Okay, I remember that. So were you part of the, the discussion nights that they used to have?

Kristy Money [00:42:38] Yeah. And so was Rolf, and that's how we, we kind of met, but only heard about each other because by then he was already in, in Mozambique. So I just mutual friends were, were like, hey, you know, you, you guys should, should get to know each other. Yeah. From, from that, from that, those discussion nights and, and just. Yeah. Written Rolf. Ralph was president of BYU Democrats, president of Students for International Development. So like, he was, he was well known. Like, I, I'm pretty introverted. I, I'm not. I wasn't. Well, when. But people, like a few people would say you should, you should meet Ralph Strawbar.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] Right.

Kristy Money [00:43:18] So yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] So you got a taste of activism with alternative commencement.

Kristy Money [00:43:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] And Ralph Nader. They brought Ralph Nader.

Kristy Money [00:43:26] They did, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Ashley was part of that. And I came to a discussion night a couple times. Do you, you, did you happen to be there when I was there?

Kristy Money [00:43:35] No, I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:43:36] Okay, that's cool. Yeah. Describe discussion nights really quickly because I would love to see BYU instigate them again. Just have BYU students do this, but describe really quickly what discussion nights were.

Kristy Money [00:43:48] Sure. Well, I only attended a couple, but usually, like, Ashley would, would bring up a topic.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] And Ashley is Neal, a. Maxwell's granddaughter, by the way.

Kristy Money [00:43:57] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] And. And we're close friends with Kate, but go ahead, keep going.

Kristy Money [00:44:01] Yeah. And. And there weren't, at least when I went, there weren't very many. Maybe 14, 15. And it'd just be like a discussion circle, like, or I guess Paulo, you know, Paulo Flaherty would call it, you know, discussion circle and bounce off ideas we'd talk about. I mean, the time I was there, it was feminism, of course. So. But yeah, just BYU students just getting together to talk about some really weighty issues. That it would, yeah, it would be great if we could, if we could institute that.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:44:38] Elsewhere.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] So that's a challenge. Any BYU students listening? Byu, Idaho students. If, if you instigate discussion night, one of us will come visit and, and, and bring a treat or something to that. Yes, right.

Kristy Money [00:44:55] Yes, absolutely. It's so, it's so important.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Okay. Yeah, so. Okay. So. So that alternative commencement was important to you? Why?

Kristy Money [00:45:05] Well, it was my first nonviolent direct action. Eventually I did a lot more, but that was the first at byu.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] You did a lot more?

Kristy Money [00:45:14] No, no, in New York. I remember, like with. That's what Rolf and I would do on date nights. Like we'd go to the UN Consulate and you know, protest that, you know, Aung San SUU Kyi needed to get freed. But yeah, that. So we were kind of made for each other. But. But yeah, that was the first.

Dissertation Research on Student Mental Health

John Dehlin [00:45:34] So you. So you graduate. Okay, I want to talk about that. But really quickly, what did you learn from your dissertation about suicide?

Kristy Money [00:45:43] Oh, wow. Well, that would take a book, but was a case study. So I studied one young man's life who, who died by suicide, who was actually incarcerated at the time. So I mean, a very high risk population that we already were, you know, trying to hone in on. And so in Utah, resident and man, I mean, the main, the main takeaways for me were that he just had because I interviewed like 30 people who knew him. Family, friends, just people in the community. And he carried a ton of guilt and shame and just always felt like he was always disappointing loved ones and teachers and even his boy Scout leader. And then. So I think he self medicated, it looked like with prescription drugs and had adhd and anyway, and he died.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Was he raised, Was he raised lds?

Kristy Money [00:46:54] Yes. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, he, he died while incarcerated, I think his second night. Anyway, it. So I, Yeah, I, I really. And he came from a pretty low, low income family and so I just, it was really important that I tried to understand like as, as closely as possible because I couldn't really generalize, you know, since it was a case study, but just trying to understand as, as much as possible, like this young man's life. So yeah, it was, it was. I mean, I Cried through pretty much the whole dissertation defense and.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] Wow. Stressful enough.

Kristy Money [00:47:37] Yeah, well. And everyone was. Was great about it, but, yeah, it was. It was very emotional. And the dissertation, too. Like, my. My advisors reading it, they're. They're like, they had to have a tissue box, too. And, yeah, it was. It was tough stuff, but, yeah, that. That definitely solidified my. My research and clinical interest in suicide prevention, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] And as you. As you left sort of more capital of Mormonism and you had dug into suicide, were there any connections you made that sort of said, wow, the stakes are really high, specifically relating to Mormonism.

Kristy Money [00:48:19] Yeah. The shame, the tribal shaming and. And of course, LGBTQ youth because, yeah. Homelessness and. And being rejected from family or, you know, high risk for even more risky behaviors which could, you know, lead you to. To jail. And. Anyway, so I. But I remember reading an article recently about how if someone is theorizing that it was the altitude.

John Dehlin [00:48:45] Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:48:46] And I'll never forget that at the end, he said something about an anecdotal experience about at Sundance, a woman came up to him afterwards and was like, oh, I'm so glad you brought this up, because I started a women's group of, you know, Utah women who just moved to Utah. And, you know, they get. Men were really, really depressed, but, hey, it's the altitude. And I couldn't help but think, you know, it also could be because you're a woman in Utah, that also might, you know, influencing, you know, have. How it's like the highest income disparity between men and women and the lowest. I mean, the biggest disparity between education levels, too, between men and women, and

John Dehlin [00:49:28] the pressures and the stress and the expectations.

Kristy Money [00:49:31] Oh, yeah, yeah. Perfectionism. But I do think there's something, because I studied this in Massachusetts, too, that, I mean, to. To it being in the. The Intermountain west, that they're just. There's more isolation there because people aren't condensed like they are in, you know, back east and in New York City, you know, of course, where I was going. But yeah, they find higher suicide rates just because you don't have the same level of social support.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] There's also higher. Higher access to handguns, I think.

Kristy Money [00:50:03] Absolutely. Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] That's part of it, too, I think.

Kristy Money [00:50:06] Yeah, I've. I cited that, too. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Yeah. Okay. And what do you mean by tribal shaming? And we can talk more about this later, but just tell us what you mean by that.

Kristy Money [00:50:15] Sure. Just that if you conform, then you're great. You're accepted. If you Deviate, then you'll be rejected and continuously shown that you don't fit in until you're ready to conform again. And so that's, I definitely saw that with this, this kid who had died by suicide. And, and I've, I've seen it with, you know, the hunt. Hundreds of, of Mormon clients that I, that I've had, you know, through my, through my training. It's just, it's too bad. And we really need to work on that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Okay. And so kind of to round out this hour, before we jump into talking about your, your progressive actions, what were the final life events that sort of led you to say, yep, I'm going to be a Mormon activist. You know, talk about anything else for as long as you feel like you want to. That gets us from your graduation of BYU to, to right before you took your first action. And if, if, if a faith crisis or changes in faith had anything to do with that along the way.

Life After BYU and Early Married Years

Kristy Money [00:51:36] Okay, I think I can do that. I've got, I've got maybe two or three stories. Let's see. All right, story number one. When I, when I was newly married and we, we were living in New York City, Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling came out.

Kristy Money [00:51:54] And it took me a while to finish it because it was huge. But hearing about polygamy really shook me, shook me up bad because I had always, I had known about polygamy, but it was always in the abstract because I didn't have a husband. So I had heard from well meaning family members that, well, it's all right, don't worry about it, because in the next life you'll be perfected so you won't have any jealousy when you have to shoot your husband. So I, I didn't feel right, but I didn't have to worry about it because I wasn't, I didn't have a husband. I met Rolf, married Rolf, and all of a sudden, you know, my world changed.

Kristy Money [00:52:39] Like, I, I am like, fidelity is so important to me that the thought of, of him, you know, having, having sex with another woman, not just about the sex, it's about, you know, intimacy, emotional intimacy too, that, that I have to share him in the next life. I just decided, like, I know Lindsay's talked about this a lot too. Like, well, okay, I don't want to go to heaven then, you know, send me to hell, you know, because I don't want anything to do with that.

Kristy Money [00:53:06] So it started out in New York City, but then I think I finished the book when we moved to The Navajo reservation. And I just remember having months and months of. Just of praying earnestly and, like, with all my soul, like, on the. On the cliffs of the Rez, you know, overlooking. Overlooking Shiprock. Have you ever been to the Four Corners area?

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Yeah, I have.

Kristy Money [00:53:32] Yeah. It's beautiful, isn't it?

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Of course. Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:53:36] Yeah. That's where we lived. And so, like, this Shiprock, this monument. Well, rock formation that looks like a ship, so they. Shiprock. Anyway, so seeing, you know, the sun setting against it, and. And so. And I would just. Like, I would be just pleading with God, like, why would you make me do this? Why would you ask women? Because I. I knew about the temple ceremonies already. Like, I. You know, I do. I'm a researcher. I do research. So I knew that. That men could marry multiple women in the temple, but women couldn't. So if I knew. So if Ralph died and, you know, it's pretty dangerous on those roads in Shiprock.

Kristy Money [00:54:17] Like, if something happened to him, then. If I ever remarried and I couldn't even fathom remarrying, but let's say that I did. I'd have to cancel my ceiling to Rolf to marry another guy. And I just. It blew my mind. Like, I can't. I can't even deal with this. So I.

Kristy Money [00:54:38] Yeah, that year was, you know, on the Rez was incredibly, well, in many ways empowering for me because I, you know, I had this. These conversations with God, and I just. I came to the conclusion that. That this isn't from God. Like, he would not want me to do that, and he would not expect that of his children. So.

Kristy Money [00:55:00] So yeah, I. That was. That was definitely. We'll call it a faith expansion that I just. I absolutely rejected polygamy. And there were also. This has, I guess, more to do with future activism. But that year, too, I saw even more racism and race relations first and Blanding. Have you. Do you know where Blanding is? It's like. It's a border town to the Navajo reservation.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:55:34] You might know about it because it got in the New York Times a couple of years ago, because the. It's also like 99% Mormon, but they. People were desecrating and taking stuff from. From graves, from, you know, from ancient burial sites.

John Dehlin [00:55:53] Yeah, I remember that.

Kristy Money [00:55:54] Yeah. Yeah, that was planning. That's where we lived for a couple months. And then. And it was. It was incredibly segregated there, too. Like, they're like, the white people lived on one side of town, Navajo are on the other. Like, they only met up at the grocery store. And it was always like, really tense. Nobody ever talked except me. White people talk to white people. Navajo would talk to Navajo. And in some areas of Blanding, very, very rich for the white residents, not so much for the Navajo. And so, yeah, and everyone was LDS there, so it was a little tense for us. So, I mean, just, I mean, since we were, I mean, we were white, so we, you know, benefited from all those privileges, but it just, it really didn't feel right.

Kristy Money [00:56:39] So we moved to the Res in teacher housing, which was amazing. So much better. But, but also it was quite a transition from New York to, to Shiprock, as you can imagine. But yeah, a lot of time to think. And so story number two, around what year is that?

John Dehlin [00:57:01] 2007. 2007.

Kristy Money [00:57:02] That was 2008, 2008, 2009. Okay, so. And also while we were on, on the res, I started to get the feeling that I was infertile. And that was confirmed by a doctor later that year.

John Dehlin [00:57:18] So you've been trying to have kids and you had.

Kristy Money [00:57:21] Yeah, and so that sent me through a tailspin too. As a Mormon woman, you're not expected to. That's not really on your radar. You know, you're always worried about, well, when is the right time to have kids? Like maybe like, well, not too soon. You don't ever really realize. Well, maybe not ever. So, yeah, I also like a lot of praying and asking, why God about that too. And so that, that really shifted my view on the role of women, especially in the church, because I, as a Mormon woman for a while, I honestly felt like, well, what is my worth? Like, if we're taught.

Kristy Money [00:58:10] And some not so well meaning family members would say, well, it's the measure of your creation. So if you can't, if you biologically cannot do that, then what is your worth? So I struggled with that and then, and came out, I think, stronger at the other end that, well, no, I am not just reduced to my biology. I, you know, yes, there are, there are biological differences, but there are also, you know, incredible amounts of variation even within the sexes. And so, yeah, and my, you know, gender classes at BYU helped with that. So I was, I came out swinging in some ways, like, okay, this is, you know, I am, I am not, you know, priesthood is not the equivalent of motherhood.

Kristy Money [00:58:57] I, there's got to be something else out there. And it's not my biology. It's not just my biology. So. Right, yeah, that's a couple experiences.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] Okay, so. So those are the things that kind of, that kind of took you to the point of. Of wanting to be a Mormon activist.

Kristy Money [00:59:18] Yeah. Oh, one. One more story, too. So story number three, just that I didn't. So I did my postdoc in community mental health in Massachusetts, and because I wanted some more diversity experiences, like, not just university counseling centers. I wanted to experience the gamut. And looking back, I'm like, oh, maybe. Maybe that will. I mean, it was just. It was hard. It was hard because, like, you're working in a setting where these people have, like, little to no resources whatsoever. Like, the center is strapped, and, like, these folks have just. They have no social net. They have.

Kristy Money [01:00:04] I saw a lot of domestic violence and no health insurance. And so I remember thinking, like, at the time, there are more things that are destroying the family besides. Not besides. But gay marriage basically is not destroying the family. What's destroying the family are poverty, lack of access to health care, and unreported domestic violence. That's what's destroying the family. Because I did a lot of. In home behavior therapy with kids and families, and I just.

Kristy Money [01:00:42] After that experience, like, it always rubbed me wrong when. I mean, it did before, but even more so just because I had seen the alternative. Like, no, no, no. Gay marriages and destroying families like these. You know, these people not having resources to sustain a family, like, that's what's destroying a family. People. So, yeah, that. That definitely revved me up for activism, I think, too.

John Dehlin [01:01:09] And that would have been around 2008, when Prop 8 was really gaining steam, right?

Kristy Money [01:01:16] 2010, actually.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Okay, so it would have been after Prop 8.

Kristy Money [01:01:20] Yeah. In 2008. Honestly, Rolf and I, we struggled and all, like, because we were still very, very orthodox back then. So we thought, like, we would just tell ourselves, well, we're just so glad we're not living in California, so we don't have to decide that. And then, honestly, I mean, I put it on a shelf. Like, I. This is. This is painful. I don't want to deal with it. But then when I heard about all the money that members were contributing, that. That really. That really made me upset. But that was still early in my. In my faith journey. So, no, I was. We shelved it, sadly.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] Okay, okay, okay. So at this point, you're up to. We're up to 20, 2010. Is that right?

Kristy Money [01:02:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] You finished Massachusetts around 2010?

Kristy Money [01:02:06] 2011. 2010, 20.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Okay, so. So what was. What was your relationship with your parents like at this point? If your mom's been a housewife, has she been a housewife this whole time?

Kristy Money [01:02:18] She actually. She is a licensed Social worker. Licensed clinical social worker.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] Oh, okay.

Kristy Money [01:02:25] Yeah, but she was a role model for you a little bit in some ways. But she, she did a lot of reparative therapy that even as a kid. Yeah, I was, it really made me uncomfortable. Like her theory was, you know, that abuse, that's the only reason that someone would be gay. So. And back then I was still like, I don't know. But basically when, when they moved to Utah, she, she gave up on it I think because like there, there are a lot of therapists and Utah county already. And, and as you know, and as I'm finding out, like it's, it's hard like when you move to, you know, set up a new practice and so she, yeah, she was mostly stay at home mom when, when they moved.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] Okay, but she modeled for you getting a graduate degree and as a mom or as a woman and having a professional track as an option at least.

Kristy Money [01:03:25] Yes, and, and they, they did encourage me to seek it out. My dad especially, honestly, because he was an English major too. And he always, he would say so he was a great coach. Like, he'd be like, okay, you know, don't just do a master's, go for the PhD. You know, he taught me how to network with professors. So like I had, I really had a leg up by having someone who, and he would talk to me about getting research experience. So. Yeah, so they both did. But honestly, recently my mom has said that she regrets that I got a PhD because it made me think that I knew better than God. So that was almost like, I think she had framed it in terms of like, would I want my daughters to be obedient or smart and I'd prefer obedience. And that, that kind of hurt. I was like, ouch. You know.

John Dehlin [01:04:21] Yeah, so, but, but before we get to that. Yeah, just real quickly. So you, you were, maybe you had some conflict with your parents as a teenager as you were trying to find your way. And maybe you're a little bit questioning and spirited and even a little bit disobedient. But to what extent did you or did you not kind of redeem yourself in your parents eyes? And I mean you, you graduated from BYU full ride and light speed, you graduate with a PhD in psychology, you get married in the temple to a good guy. To what extent did that like redeem you as, as a, as a viable daughter versus, you know, did the contention kind of continue?

Kristy Money [01:05:08] No, it was there, it, it was pretty good actually because like you said. Yeah, they, they, they're very proud of me and I think My dad still is, but, yeah, I checked all the boxes and so, no, it wasn't ever. I mean, yes, as a kid, like, I was, you know, the black sheep, but it was never like, so bad that I wasn't welcome in their home permanently or anything like that. Like that.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] Of course. Of course.

Kristy Money [01:05:44] Yeah. It was always, well, you know, there, there are consequences to your actions, but, you know, we'll still, you know, I, like, I got to. To babysit for the, for them while they're. They went out of town, and so they, you know, they trusted me with their kids. I was not a horrible role model yet. So, yeah, it was. It was quiet in many ways. It was. It was fine.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] So through the end of your, by the end of your PhD, you felt like you were on good terms with your parents?

Kristy Money [01:06:18] Yeah, relatively. I mean, sometimes, like they or my mother might. Might just bring up my disobedient past, but yeah, no, it was cordial.

Returning Home With a Traditional Testimony

John Dehlin [01:06:30] And after completing your work in Massachusetts, would you say you still had sort of a traditional testimony and. And in some ways were still. Was still orthodox?

Kristy Money [01:06:42] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely didn't have a testimony of polygamy or of, you know, women primarily being. Being mothers, but no, that was. That was it really. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Kristy Money [01:07:25] Hope.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] When with the wounded heart, anger or

Kristy Money [01:07:36] malice,

John Dehlin [01:07:39] I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 549

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Kristy Money [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

Part Two: Becoming a Mormon Activist

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Hello, and welcome back to my very, very interesting interview with Christy Money. If you were able to join us for part one. Christy talked about growing up in a family of seven children with a father, Harvard MBA, PhD, you know, business professor, you know, very, you know, conservative Mormon upbringing, but a little bit of rebelliousness starting at age 12, but also a strong faith and commitment to the church.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] She, you know, went to byu, graduated in two years with the double major, then went on to get a PhD in counseling psychology at BYU. Had a ton of really cool experiences being being a therapist to BYU students, married Ralph, and started to have some Mormon intellectual awakenings through reading Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling and contemplating polygamy and women's issues.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And it's just a really fascinating hour, so I hope you'll all go back and listen. But as we concluded that first hour, we got to around 2011, which is really only four years ago, if you can believe that, Christy.

Kristy Money [00:02:07] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] But now it's time to talk about what led you to your first sort of actions as a Mormon activist. And so, so you. You finish your stuff in Massachusetts. Talk. Talk to us about the very first time you said, I'm going to do something. You know, I've got to do something with Mormons, maybe on the Internet, you know. When was that? How did it happen?

Kristy Money [00:02:34] Oh, I can. I can tell you exactly when that was. That was In December of 2012, when I wanted to hold Rosie for her blessing, just like I told the New York Times. That's. That's what did it.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] Okay, so you. So you had a baby?

Kristy Money [00:02:48] Mm, my second.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Okay, your first. You didn't. You didn't care?

Kristy Money [00:02:52] I. We blessed her at home just because it was during the holiday, and it was still important to me that I hold her, but it wasn't really an issue because we were just gonna do it at home anyway.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Okay, so did you hold her at home?

Kristy Money [00:03:05] I did.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:03:06] I Did it, it was great.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] And you had just members of the ward or stake or your family there?

Kristy Money [00:03:11] Just family members.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Were there and your dad?

Kristy Money [00:03:15] No.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Okay. Was that, was that an act of rebellion or not?

Kristy Money [00:03:19] No, no, they just, it was in Austin, Texas, so they, they weren't around my fault.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] I mean, was you holding the baby? Were you thinking of that, your first child, were you thinking of that as a subversive actor, as a disobedient actor?

Kristy Money [00:03:35] Yeah, no, I just. So after, after four, five years of infertility, you know, after so much struggle, I really wanted to be a part of it and I didn't see anything wrong with just being able to hold the baby. So. No, it wasn't, wasn't an act of rebellion against my parents or anything, just more so. I just really wanted to hold her.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] Okay, but did you, did you, did it even occur to you that that might be a thing when you held your first baby during the blessing?

Kristy Money [00:04:02] Yeah, yeah, I did.

Discovering Mormon Feminism and Women's Blessings

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Okay, so at that point, had you been reading like feminist Mormon Housewives or.

Kristy Money [00:04:07] You know, actually, no, I, I'm late to the FMH scene and, and an online progressive like Rolf had been involved for a while, but I was, I was busy with my full time internship. You know, you know what that's like?

John Dehlin [00:04:22] Yeah, I do.

Kristy Money [00:04:23] Yeah. So I was, and I was so concentrated on, on finishing that with, while keeping my sanity intact that I didn't, I didn't really know about podcasts or.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Did you know about modern, you know, when I say modern, I mean 1970s on. Did you know about modern Mormon feminism by that point about, you know, Maxine Hanks and, you know, Margaret Toscano and Joanna Brooks and all that.

Kristy Money [00:04:47] Or I, I knew about Maxine because my mother in law was friends with her. They, yeah, they, they were good friends. But, but no, I really, I didn't know any of, of that history.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Like the women used to, you know, seal washing and anointings and sealants.

Kristy Money [00:05:06] I have no idea. I know now, believe me, I've done all the research.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] But you didn't know that women used to ordain, you know, or he. None of that was in your mind when you held your first baby for

Kristy Money [00:05:17] the, it wasn't, it wasn't on the radar. No.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Okay. Okay. I'm just trying to. Okay, so you, you did hold the baby for the first blessing, but that wasn't a big deal. But then in 2012, you have your second baby. Then what happened?

Kristy Money [00:05:29] And I, I, by then I had done my research about women doing blessings and so What.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] What led to that? What led to you wanting to study that?

Kristy Money [00:05:40] Well, I. We spent the year in Austin, so I. I was near Rolf's mother, who was one of the original founders of Sunstone.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Oh, wow.

Kristy Money [00:05:51] And, yeah, so, you know, we had some talks. Sandy Strawbar.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] Okay. So she was, like, with Peggy back in the. The mid-70s, starting Sunstone.

Kristy Money [00:06:01] Yeah, excellent. And, yeah. And. And so, yeah, I, I just, I talked with her a bit, found out about Maxine, and, you know, it didn't seem right. And so, yeah, I just, I started doing my own research and, yeah, it blew my mind about women's autonomy and, and performing blessings and, and rituals that would be only priesthood duties today.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] So tell us, Tell us some of the things you. You learned. Just for people who don't know anything about it, tell us some of the big things you learned that really were important to you and, and where you learned them from.

Kristy Money [00:06:36] Well, I learned in Linda Newell's A gift given and a Gift Taken about how women were ordained and set apart by Joseph Smith to do healing blessings, and especially in preparation for childbirth, doing blessings that included anointing the head with oil and laying hands on their heads and then sealing it in the name of Jesus Christ. And it blew me away. It just seemed so unfair that it went away. I mean, this was common and then died around the early turn of the century. I mean, it almost kind of had two deaths. Like, first at the early turn of the century and then with the first correlation implementation, and then again in 1940s with the second one that kind of sealed the deal, so it was gone.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] And where'd you even learn about Linda Newell having written this? Do you remember?

Kristy Money [00:07:39] Google, I think. Okay. But I. Yeah, I mean, Rolf's mom had, I think, had some old Sunstone magazines lying around, but I didn't really. Most of my research was online. I just, I read as much as I could online. So. Yeah, and now, I mean, we have the Joseph Smith papers, so you can, you can look all that up about, about Emma being ordained and Sarah Whitney. I mean, all. And, and Joseph Smith's plural wives being ordained and set apart to, to do these blessings. And so, I mean, it was just. Yeah, I was, I was fired up and, and ready. It just seemed natural to me that, that if. If a mother asks, then why not? I didn't expect the pushback that.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:08:30] I didn't expect it to be that severe.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] Any other big things you learned that's worth mentioning before the baby blessing thing happened is that the main thing that's the main thing. Okay. Okay. So you want to bless your baby, your daughter. Right. And what happened?

Kristy Money [00:08:47] I.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Not blessed. Not blessed. You wanted to hold it?

Kristy Money [00:08:49] Yeah, Just hold her. Yeah. And. Yeah, because I wanted it. Yeah. I mean, this is, you know, her first ceremony for the church. And I. And I wanted. And, you know, my. My family, you know, could have come into town and. And I wanted them to be there, too, but in the church, because, I mean, it wasn't during a holiday and I was attached to this ward and. And, you know, so wasn't visiting. And so I'm like, okay, well, let's. Let's do this. And so, yeah, the bishop was like, huh, that's interesting. You know, let me talk to the stake president.

Kristy Money [00:09:22] And then he comes back with, no, no, you can't. You know, and he shows me in the handbook where it says, you know, melchizedek priesthood holders only can participate in the naming and blessing. So, I mean, I was shut down even. I even tried to say, you know, I tried to use logic, and I'm like, okay, well, a deacon can hold the microphone in the. In the center of the circle, and he doesn't have the Melchizedek priesthood, so. And neither does the chair that, you know, a man would be sitting on. Because he said. I mean, his concession was, well, Rolf can hold the baby.

Kristy Money [00:09:54] Because I also said, well, I'm also. I'm a little nervous about them bouncing the baby like a basketball, you know, that. That makes me a bit nervous. But it wasn't. Obviously, it wasn't just that. I also. It was important to me to be a part of this, that special day. But, yeah, he said, well, you know, Ralph can hold the baby, you know, sitting down in a chair. I'm like, well, okay, so the chair doesn't have the priesthood, but the chair can be in the circle. Why can't I? So didn't go over very well, he said. He just still said, no, I'm sorry. So we did it at home, and it was a. It was a beautiful ceremony. And so now I'm just. Yeah, I.

Connecting With Ordained Women Movement

John Dehlin [00:10:32] So you did your second blessing at home?

Kristy Money [00:10:34] Yeah, so both.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] And you did hold the baby?

Kristy Money [00:10:37] I did, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Okay. And did you have any family friends there?

Kristy Money [00:10:42] I did. My. My mother and my sisters and my grandmother were there.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Why not your dad?

Kristy Money [00:10:49] He's. He's busy. Busy guy. But. But my family, my. This was in Los Angeles, so my mother and my sisters flew out, and my grandmother. So, I mean, they. And I. I was honest with them that. That, you know, I I thought I wanted to be a part of this special day and you know, I didn't see the problem. So like since it. I, I wasn't out about Ordained women yet. You know, they're, they're kind of like, oh, Christy. But, but they still, they still supported me and wanted to be there. Yeah, that was fine.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] Ordained women didn't exist in 2012. Right.

Kristy Money [00:11:24] Well, she, so I asked early when I was still pregnant. She was born February 7, 2013. We launched Ordained Women March 18, March 17, 2013. So a month later and then we did the blessing like two weeks after that.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] Okay, got it, got it. Okay, so by that point. Okay, so how did you get connected to Kate and Ordained Women?

Kristy Money [00:11:52] Well, from byu. You know, we were, we were at BYU together and Rolf knew her too and Thelma, one of the original profile holders too. So yeah, we were very interested and involved from the very beginning and we were organizers, but I was just very try to be very discreet and even though like, so I posted my profile publicly, but you know, you have to be really, really good at Google searching to, you know, nail someone's image, you know, and connect because it's first name only. So you know, I was out in terms of my profile, but I was not, I was not organizing publicly. I wasn't, I wasn't. Yeah, I was, I was just trying to, to be on the download because I, I knew that the, my parents reaction would be, would be bad.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] You're worried about your parents. So I, I'm. This is a specific question, but through what means did you maintain your relationship with Kate such that you would know to even join this thing? Were you part of a Facebook group or you part of a email list? Like in what converse, what conversations and what communities were you having that would lead to you saying, hey Kate, I want to be a part of this. How do I join? You know what I mean?

Kristy Money [00:13:19] Ralph. Actually, Ralph was my connection because he, he was much more in tuned with, with FMH and, and Mormon stories too. But I, he didn't, I mean we, we didn't connect through Kate through Mormon stories, but just through college friends. I mean we, yeah, we had always been, been interested in whatever would be going on. And I, you know, ever since, you know, what had happened in December, even before Rosie was born, I was on the lookout to basically to organize like I was. I was fired up and ready because it just not right to deny a mother, you know, just being able to hold her baby. So, so yeah, Rolf.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] Okay, Ralph connected. Okay, so you connect with Kate and you help. You help. You're one of the first ordained women profiles Then in 2013.

Kristy Money [00:14:15] Yeah. Yeah. And Neil, too, I forgot to mention. So Rolf and Neil were even closer than. Than us and Kate. So, like, they were. They were buddies in college and were in the same major, so, like. Yeah. And so. And Neil was one of the first, too, so we were all like, all right, here it goes. But I.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] This is Neil Ransom, Kate Kelly's husband. Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:14:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:14:38] It wasn't just family, though. Like, I also. I also knew that, like, when we posted and we posted our profiles together, Ralph and I, we knew that, like, any chance of. Of working at BYU or BYU Hawaii would be gone.

Kristy Money [00:14:54] And so that was a hard decision, too, because we know we're both academics, and I had always. And I mean, even still, even though I know it's not a possibility anymore, I'd always wanted to work at BYU Hawaii, you know, in the counseling center. So, I mean, that was a really hard decision to make too, because I knew, like, even if, like, family members didn't see my profile until later, that, you know, I'm sure the church would keep track of that and they'd know when, you know, I would. I would get desk rejected. So.

Kristy Money [00:15:24] And yeah, Ralph is an academic, too. Like that I would even. We'd even visit campus. Byu, Hawaii campus, and. And try to network and. Because it just. That's. That's where I wanted to be.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] But yeah, of course. And your dad. Your dad's there and.

Kristy Money [00:15:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] Yeah. Okay, so. So by early 2013, you're kind of helping behind the scenes with Kate, and you do come out with profiles, but in ways that wouldn't be really, really public, you know. Okay. And so talk us through your progression of involvement in the various things that you got involved with and what that was like and talk about how it started maybe affecting your relationship with family.

Kristy Money [00:16:18] Well, it didn't affect my family at all because we were in Rio de Janeiro for a year, and that was the year that. Because basically right after Rosie was born, we moved to Rio. And so there was quite a ways away, and there I could, you know, organize, you know, without being in the. In the public eye. We couldn't make it to the first action because that would have been a really expensive plane ticket. But. But we helped organize it, Rolf and I, with.

Kristy Money [00:16:53] With the original organizers. So, yeah, it was. It was good in a lot of ways because, I mean, it was Rio. I just. I had a lot of time to think on the beaches and the mountains and. Oh, it's gor.

Kristy Money [00:17:09] And then we do all of our organizing online with lots of Google hangouts and conference calls. And then we were watching with great anticipation what would happen in October with the first action. I honestly thought they'd let them in, but I am a crazy idealist, so that didn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] So what were you doing? What types of things were you doing behind the scenes? To organize with Ordained women.

Kristy Money [00:17:42] Sure. So posting profiles, and then as we were leading up to the action, like, figuring out routes and then alternative scenarios, like, okay, so what do we do if they try to cut us off? You know, just running through that. And then, I mean, most important was just getting volunteers to be line leaders or to document things to scouts to make sure that the way was clear and getting permits, making sure all that was set into place and that you can do online. You just have to make sure that somebody is there on the ground with a list of all these people's names to say, okay, you, you're doing this, you're doing this. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a lot of work.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] And how much of it was like, I don't know anything about Kate's kind of organizing or management skills. How much of it is like, Kate's got a big list of things that need to be done and she's just assigning all the work. How much of it is like, Kate going, help, I need help. And then everybody else doing the work. How much of it is, like, people getting angry and fighting versus, like, everybody totally getting along and loving every minute of this important moment. Talk a bit about the dynamics of. Of. Because I think ordained women has been highly, highly organized and well executed. And I'm just curious how that was behind the scenes, the dynamics.

Kristy Money [00:19:15] Well, I mean, we're Mormons, right? So we're great organizers. We're, we're, you know, we can, we can get people where they need to be and, and have things, you know, arranged. So in the beginning, there was, there's more of an organizers group of. There are about 30. And so it wasn't, it wasn't just,

John Dehlin [00:19:33] this is Deborah Jensen. This is Heather Olson Beale.

Kristy Money [00:19:36] This is Nancy Ross. And Chelsea, of course. Yeah, Chelsea was, was our on the ground person for the first action, who I gave all the names to. Like, okay, we've got so and so here. We'll do this for you. You know, make sure that you connect with her. And so, yeah, it wasn't. Yeah, Kate.

Kristy Money [00:19:54] Yeah, she wasn't just barking orders necessarily, though. She is, she is very good at, you know, motivating people. But no, I mean, it was definitely collective. Like we were all doing our best and we, you know, delegated, just made sure that, I mean, we had this huge Google Doc with blanks of, you know, we need, you know, we need, you know, people de escalators, you know, in case people get, get nasty to the supporters and you know, and heckle them or things like that, you know, so we had, we had to train de escalators and so just like this huge, huge list.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Selma. It's basically like Selma, right?

Kristy Money [00:20:37] Yeah, yeah. But I mean, with the stakes not nearly so high.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Right.

Kristy Money [00:20:40] You know, we never had to worry about getting beaten or killed. Just, just had to move 200 people, you know, from City Creek park to the tabernacle. So. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was great. I mean I loved. And since I, you know, I couldn't practice in Rio, obviously, so it was just, it was good. It gave me something to do. You know, I've always, I've always said, you know, if the church wanted to stop me, they shouldn't discipline me. And I, and Kate said this too. Like, just give me like a super time intensive calling and a job, like have BYU hire me because like I just being a stay at home mom, I wanted to, I wanted to organize and.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] Yeah, so.

Kristy Money [00:21:28] Yeah.

The 2013 General Conference Action and Public Fallout

John Dehlin [00:21:28] Okay. So you thought leading up to the first action in October of 2013 that, that they were going to let you guys in?

Kristy Money [00:21:38] I did. I honestly did.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] So, so how did you take the news that that wasn't what happened?

Kristy Money [00:21:44] Oh, I was devastated. I remember exactly where I was when it happened. We were dog sitting for someone in this very, very wealthy part of Rio where outside the balcony you could see the Christo statue, you know, that iconic, one of the wonders of the world.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Touchdown Jesus or whatever.

Kristy Money [00:22:03] Yes, Touchdown Jesus. You could see that from our balcony. And I just, I remember like it was, it was late at night for Ralph and I, I was sobbing and, and just out on that balcony just looking at the, the lit up statue of Christ and, and just trying to, to just, you know, do some mindfulness techniques to like. Okay, well, I'm here, we're here now in Rio, you know, with, with our kids.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] And then you're grounding yourself.

Kristy Money [00:22:35] Yeah, well, just. I, yeah, I feel the chair.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] My chair is connected to the ground.

Kristy Money [00:22:41] Yes. It's all going to be okay. Like I'm in Rio de Janeiro. It's not the end of the world. And my oldest, Evie was a really horrible sleeper and so she was up then too. And she just would look up at the statue and say, oh, look, it's Jesus. And I remember thinking, I'm not giving up. You know, I want it to be different for her when she's old enough. And so I want her religious experience to be an equal one. So I'm like, okay, well, so did you cry? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I was sobbing, you know, on Rolf's shoulder. And, you know, as we're out on that balcony, sitting down, just looking at that statue and just trying to get perspective. And I mean, I was already like, okay, what, what, what are we doing next? What's the next step?

John Dehlin [00:23:34] So, okay, wait, before you get there, like, there are probably people who, who looked at ordained women with some cynicism, like they don't really believe or they're just trying to embarrass the church or, you know, this is coming from a place of anger and, and apostasy and speak to the extent to which that was or was not kind of the vibe you got from this group and from your own motivations.

Kristy Money [00:24:06] Yeah, I mean, my, my motivations, like, I, I didn't have any bad experiences with my priesthood leaders. Like, I didn't. And I was really lucky. Like, I wasn't, I didn't experience ecclesiastical abuse. I wasn't. Yeah, I, I had really great experiences in the church. It was just that, that one experience not being able to hold Rosie and it was, yeah, it was heartbreaking for me, but I, it just, it just made me want to change the church for the better. It wasn't a, well, I'm going to get back at, at anybody. It was, well, you know, here's a need, you know. And then I learned about, I know I'd read the, the Kimball's biography, so I knew about what, you know, how change happens in the church.

Kristy Money [00:24:56] And then it's not so simple as, you know, a bat phone to God that, you know, that revelations come from a need at first, that it's not so simple as, as just God just tells a prophet right then and there that, that, that prophets respond to and are influenced by the culture they're surrounded by, you know, just like they were. They were in a pretty racist culture when, you know, they instituted the priesthood ban and kept it going, that, that, you know, there's a lot of sexism in our culture too. And so that, you know, could be influencing the female priesthood band. So, yeah, I just, after doing my research, I thought, well, okay, if this is how change happens in the church, as, as a moral agent, you know, I think this is.

Kristy Money [00:25:47] This is what I need to be using my agency for. For good. So. Yeah. And I heard very, very similar stories from the other organizers, so it was because I cared so much. And I know. I know even, like, so people who.

Kristy Money [00:26:05] They just choose not to believe that. That will know you can't possibly care about the church and be an activist. But I. There's no other way to convince them, so I. I won't try. I just. I'm just sharing my truth. And that is. I. It's because I cared so much that I wanted to make it better.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] You just wanted a better church experience, a more equal church experience for. For you, for your daughters, and for other women in the church.

Kristy Money [00:26:38] Yeah. 5 million church members are women. And. And, yeah, I. I wanted to be a part of that change because, I mean, if. If we don't do it, who will? I mean, this. It. There's a lot of risk. There's a lot of. A lot of shaming that comes from. From standing up like this. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:27:02] It's hard.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Okay. And so. And so you were heartbroken. You were sobbing. But then your next question was, all right, what's next?

Kristy Money [00:27:11] Pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] All right, so how was the leadership team of ordained women after that? Did it just more resolved than ever? Did it fracture? Like, what was that?

Kristy Money [00:27:24] Like, more resolved than ever? Like, we were ready. And after getting a lot of feedback from supporters who had wanted to be there for the first action but couldn't, we decided to do it. And then. And I knew that I would be there for that one because we would be leaving Rio. And. Yeah, I. So I. So I'm anticipating. All right, so I'm gonna start being public. What's this gonna look like for my family? How are we gonna do this? And then the New York Times answered that question for me by calling and, you know, wanting to know about my experience with Rosie. So when that went public, less than a month before the second action in April, that's when kind of everything blew up for me.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] My month before the second action, it was.

Kristy Money [00:28:16] It was a little. It was a little less than that, actually. Like, maybe three weeks.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Okay, okay. So we're talking, like, March of 2014.

Kristy Money [00:28:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Right.

Kristy Money [00:28:29] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] Okay. What happened?

Kristy Money [00:28:34] The. It was interesting because it was a week. A week before my New York Times article came out. They did a feature on sister missionaries, and they did. It was pretty positive. And so, like, the church was, like, super thrilled about that. It was, you know, Mormon newsroom. This is great. New York Times covers the church and sister missionaries but, and that was Laurie Goodstein article.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:29:02] And, but Laurie had picked up on some tensions with the sister missionaries, particularly. One had, had said, you know, when she asked about, like, well, women don't have the priesthood. Is that a problem? She's like, oh, no, no, that's, you know, my role is to be a mother. I am, you know, I wouldn't want the priesthood. And so she wanted to do a follow up on that. That's when she called. And, and then, and so when, when this article came out, like, there were like complete silence from the church.

Kristy Money [00:29:32] There wasn't anything in the Mormon newsroom about yet another article from the New York Times on the church because it was not so great. Then I got just a ton of pushback. People are saying, well, you're hurting the missionary effort because you're portraying the church as sexist. I'm like, well, okay, I'm just describing my experience.

Kristy Money [00:29:55] So if the church is doing this, you know, maybe if it doesn't want to be portrayed as sexist, they could let women hold their babies. You know, just a thought, but even from, you know, some even more progressive people, they were just, they were shocked that I would, that I would tell this story and, you know, nationally.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] And so the main thing you said in the article, the main things were what?

Kristy Money [00:30:17] Oh, just, I just told, told my story about Rosie that I told you and my picture with Rosie was in it. And so.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] Yeah, okay, so you just said, I wanted to hold my baby during the blessing and I couldn't.

Kristy Money [00:30:33] Yeah, yeah. So she led and then ended with that because I, you know, said, well, I'm, I'm gonna hold Rosie at the action because I couldn't hold her at church, so I'm gonna be there.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] And so I saw you there, I saw you there at the end.

Kristy Money [00:30:46] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] So, so what was that like? What was that like? Like, dang, you're flying under the radar with family and friends to a large degree. And then boom. New York Times expressing this, you know, a negative experience. What was the fallout?

Kristy Money [00:31:05] Oh, it was, it was worse than I ever expected. And I, in part, I was wanting, not wanting to be too public because I have, you know, a 95 year old great grandmother who I don't know how much longer she has, and I love her to death and I. She doesn't read the New York Times. So like, I didn't think that she would read it, but my extended family, they would show her and you know, like, see, look, you've got, you know, look at this apostate So I, you know, I was worried about that and just like all of my family on that side of the family, I knew like I have a mission president uncle who, yeah, I got a few, some rebuking from, from that. But I mean, definitely the, the worst was, was from what happened, my parents.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] What happened?

Kristy Money [00:32:00] Well, I, he, he was just like, because he, I, I hadn't heard from him in a long time. But then I, you know, I get this long email about how, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, on the road to apostasy. And it's because he cares about me so much that he needs to, to tell me that I'm on the wrong side and, and you know, some Satan references. My family is. Satan is, this is very real and influences people, mostly me. So.

Kristy Money [00:32:32] Yeah, so I, yeah, it was not good, not good at all. But Ralph's family was incredibly supportive. I mean, it was hard on them too because, you know, they don't agree with activism, but I mean, they, they've been spending, you know, decades, like trying to negotiate, you know, being progressive Mormons, but without making waves. And then here I am like making these huge, tremendous waves, but still unconditionally loving. They supported me. So that, that was.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] So did you like call your dad and talk to him? Did you go meet with them? How much. Oh, no fights was verbal or was it just silence? Did you respond back with the flame email? Like, how did you handle family disapproval?

Kristy Money [00:33:23] Phone calls mostly. And it was, it was rough because like, my mom especially she was very angry. And I mean, my dad, I think was just was worried because as a presider and as, you know, the head of the household, like, he takes seriously his role as being the one to lead us all back into the celestial kingdom. And so to have an apostate daughter, I think really hit him hard.

Kristy Money [00:33:53] And just my mother, just like it was when I was a child, just lots of punitive behavior to hopefully set me back on course. I mean, of course, I mean, as you know, it has the opposite effect most of the time. I just, it made me just want to stop talking because I, you know, it's, it's a lot, a lot of piling on about how I'm, you know, a bad influence to my sisters and how I'm trying to recruit them to a feminist movement and that, you know, she needs to protect them from me. And so, and so it was really hard because I was really close to my sisters and you know, as being with the 20 year age gap, you know, I helped I helped raise them, but. So that was. That was difficult.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] And how did your. Do you have any brothers or just all sisters?

Kristy Money [00:34:49] I have. Yeah, I have brothers.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] So how did your. Did you. Did any of your siblings even read the article? And how did any of them who did or who knew about it respond to it?

Kristy Money [00:35:00] I'm not sure if they even read it. I just know that they've heard from my mother that I'm an apostate and going to hell. And so I got texts and emails from them, which are really hard. Just saying that you need to follow the prophet or you're going to hell. Why are you doing this? Just stop it, and then the family will accept you again. It was tough.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] So why not just take the Nylan McBain sort of path and, and just be super patient and moderate in your suggestions? Why. Why go so hardcore?

Kristy Money [00:35:38] Well, I mean, you would think that. That asking to hold your baby was a moderate approach, but that didn't. Didn't work so well. And, I mean, by the way, I love Nylan and the work she's doing. It's just. I mean, it can't be everybody. You know, I.

Kristy Money [00:35:56] I need to follow my own convictions, and that. My convictions are, you know, we need equality. And it's only going to happen, I think, when the brethren are wrestling with it at the highest levels, and local changes are great, and I think that they're all going to lead us to full equality someday, but that bishops and stake presidents are, in some ways, they're powerless because, you know, there's that handbook, and so you can only do so much. And so, yeah, I would love. I would love to be an island, but I think she does what she does very well. And I think. I mean, it's going to take all of us, her and me, and, yeah, we're. We're just all in. All in it together.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] So, so what about. What about the argument that doing this, this visible action, that's. That's controversial, that's almost shaming to the church, that. Trying to be. It's. It's disruptive to General Conference, it's public, the media is involved. What about the argument that that's just disrespectful and counterproductive, that in some ways you're generating the same resistance that your mom generated in you and your dad when they resisted what you were doing?

Kristy Money [00:37:30] Yeah, well, that's a good question. And. And I've thought about that a lot, and I think, well, I just have control over my actions. I mean, the church, they could have they could have deflected it by. By just letting us in without saying, okay, well, you get the priesthood now. But. Or even like brought out hot chocolate or something to. To say, well, okay, you know, there's. There's no room, you know, if there wasn't room in the tabernacle, but, you know, you're our sisters, you're welcome.

Kristy Money [00:37:58] You know, it was being broadcast anyway, and they said women can, you know, can be there for the broadcast, or they, you know, that's. They announced that right before the first action. So, I mean, there wasn't really any problem with us being in the tabernacle.

Kristy Money [00:38:11] I mean, that would have really offset the bad press, is to just let us in. That wouldn't be giving us the priesthood. But I mean, just barring us one by one, you know, we. We didn't have control over what they did. We just were following, you know, our own desire, you know, and to demonstrate our readiness for. For full equality. So, I mean, yeah, there. The church could have. Could have deflected it.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] How did you. How did you think about demonstrating as it relates to God's one and only true church? Like, it's. It's one thing to pray. It's one thing to have a conversation, but, like, where's the precedence for sort of political activist demonstrations in a church led by a prophet, you know, who's supposed to be led by God? Like, you know, where's the precedent? Or what made you think that that would be appropriate in God's church?

Kristy Money [00:39:17] Well, I got a few stories. So Hannah demonstrating at the walls of the temple, wanting a son so badly would become Samuel, the prophet, that she. She was weeping and wailing and making such a demonstration that. That Eli. I think his name is Eli. That the prophet at the time, or the president of the temple was like, what's this crazy woman doing? Is she drunk? But. But no, she was. She was demonstrating with her body, her. Her desire for a son, you know, someone with infertility. I can relate to that. And so. And we have. We just. Let me think some. Some more stories. Well, I mean.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] I mean, there's Emma talking about the tobacco.

Kristy Money [00:40:02] Yeah. Ask. Literally, she asked Joseph to have a revelation, and so he went to God. And we just don't have that same network or means to communicate directly with the prophets. So. Because, you know, the church is so much bigger, and so public activism is one of the few ways we have to get their attention. Because I've tried writing. I've written many times to the apostles and haven't heard Back. And feminists like Nadine have been calling for equality for 30 years and suggesting many of this very similar things that Niland has.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] This is Nadine Hansen, right? Mm, yeah. Yeah, she's great.

Kristy Money [00:40:49] Yeah, I was. I walked with her on Temple Square. But yeah, so being, you know, saying same things as Nylan did in 1980, you know, publishing it and Sunstone, her dialogue and, you know, it's the same. Everything's the same. I mean, baby steps, A couple baby steps here and there. But I mean that she could have written that article for the most part today, and it's been 30 years, so it's time, I thought, to try something new. And yeah, faith affirming, non direct. I mean, direct, sorry, non violent action, civil disobedience is. I mean, I think it was a very spiritual experience. I mean, definitely was for me. And yeah, I stand by it.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Okay, so the second action happens. Okay, so there's a lot of bad reaction in your family to your New York Times article. Then the second action happens. And what?

Kristy Money [00:41:51] Well, then I'm not welcome at home anymore.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] What do you mean by that?

Kristy Money [00:41:56] I can't step foot in the door because. Well, a couple reasons. Just that I'm a bad influence to my sisters, wanting to keep the spirit of the home. Like, apparently, you know, Satan is working through me. So, like, my influence in the house would be a bad one. And also, I mean, I don't. My mom knows Sherry Dew, and I do not know what Sherry Dew actually said to my mother. She might not have even said this. All I know is that my mom interpreted whatever she said to mean that she needed to protect her daughters from me. So, I mean, she. She used. She told me that, like, Sherry do. Told me, you need to, you know, I need. I need to keep my daughter safe from you. So. So that was fun.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Okay, so, like, is that something that's continued to this day or. Or. Yes, it was just a. Okay, wait a minute. So you're saying that your mom hasn't wanted you in her home since. Since spring of2014, is that right?

Kristy Money [00:43:04] Yeah. And it's. It's. This is new. It would never been like that. But all of a sudden, you know, after they find about. They find out about my. My ordained women activism, then all of a sudden it's, It's. Well, you're trying to.

Kristy Money [00:43:20] You're trying to have a. Have a relationship with your sisters so that you can recruit them to this feminist movement. Even though I've. I've sworn that I won't talk to them about it, but it's just. It's fear. I mean, fear makes. Makes good, reasonable people do some pretty crazy things. And like my dad, he's a very reasonable guy.

Kristy Money [00:43:41] Very, very good professor. So good at what he does, but he's really, really worried. And so, yeah, I mean, I think they're doing what they think is best to protect their family and to try to get me on the straight and narrow. And I mean, they're really getting it from the church because that's what the. Does. You know this better than anybody, that when the church feels that you're stepping outside of boundaries, then, you know, they'll come down hard and. And, you know, excommunicate you in your case to. To, you know, keep you from corrupting everybody else and.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] And even for my own good, right?

Kristy Money [00:44:25] Yeah, absolutely.

Family Estrangement and Personal Costs of Activism

John Dehlin [00:44:26] So wait, are you saying you haven't seen your parents in over a year?

Kristy Money [00:44:30] No, we've met in neutral places. I mean, in fact, one time it was. So I've been trying to reconcile with them. And even, like, of August of last year, I came out to Utah, you know, explicitly to say, like, let's try to, you know, work this out. Love you guys.

Kristy Money [00:44:50] But, you know, they still wouldn't let me home. And so, you know, and I. And, oh, go. This. This is a sad story, but my. My grandfather that I mentioned that I. That I loved so much, he. He died the day after Kate was excommunicated.

Kristy Money [00:45:12] Suddenly. It was. It was. I was not expecting that, but I was. I was in town, I was in Salt Lake City, and I wanted to. I wanted to, like, be together with the family again and said, okay, you know, can we put differences aside for this and can I just come home?

Kristy Money [00:45:30] You know, I'll extend my flights. I want to see, you know, I just. I want to be with my family right now. The answer was no. So I had already been away from Rolf and the kids for a few days, and I was hurting like crazy, missing my grandfather, and so I just. I just went. I went home to be with him and the girls because, you know, I'd already known when I was going to be there that my parents weren't going to have me in their home. Like, we just. We met at a. At a kneaders briefly, like, for a half hour. I mean, to their credit, they could have met with me for a couple hours, but it just.

Kristy Money [00:46:11] It was still. It was painful that we're like, well, we can't see you in the house, but, you know, we'll meet you at Neaters. So anyway, I didn't get to go to the funeral. And so in August, a few months later, I came back to Utah.

Kristy Money [00:46:28] Like I said. I told them ahead of time, I want to reconcile. Let's see what we can do. And they said, well, you can't stay at the house. Like, okay, that's fine, but, you know, let's talk. But they took me to my grandfather's grave site, and I didn't. I just figured it would be, you know, a bonding moment, you know, where we could all mourn his loss. Like, I wanted to be there so bad for the funeral, and I missed him, so. And I just wanted to.

Kristy Money [00:47:07] To mourn his loss at his grave. And so I was just kneeling down, I was sobbing, missing him, and just. And my parents, like, quietly put the kids in the car and then came to me, and then, like, the shouting match of the century commenced right there.

Kristy Money [00:47:33] Or they confronted me about being a covenant breaker and that, you know, I. The. What I'm doing is having eternal consequences. And it was. It was so bad, John. It was bad.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] You and your parents, just you three.

Kristy Money [00:47:51] Yeah, because they. I'm looking back, like, I know that this was. They had planned this, you know, to have this be the intervention, but not. It wasn't mediation. It was. It was a come. Fire and brimstone. You know, we're gonna shake you to the core about how you're. You're breaking your temple covenants and, you know, you can't be with the family eternally if you do this. And. And I mean, saying things that. That I would be. If only they could take back, like. Like that I'm.

Kristy Money [00:48:28] Like, I never cared for my siblings and that in saying this, like, within earshot of my siblings. But I had known that they had been. Well, one of them had been telling my siblings that I didn't care about them and things to try to, you know, rewrite history a bit. But, I mean, like I said, it's just fear. Fear that I might.

Kristy Money [00:48:54] Might, you know, infect them with apostasy, even though I. Like I said, I've said I wouldn't talk about it with them. It's just. There's way too much fear. So, yeah, it went. It went horribly. And they ended up leaving me in a parking lot because they wouldn't take me to where some friends were camping because they were sure it was an OW rally, even though I assured them, said, this is not an OW rally. I would love to come home, but since I can't come home, you know, I'LL go camping. Anyway, it was.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] And what month was that?

Kristy Money [00:49:24] It was August.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] August of 2014. 14. That's when Kate found out the verdict.

Kristy Money [00:49:33] Kate found out in. On June 23rd.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Oh, that's right. Okay.

Kristy Money [00:49:38] 2014. And then my grandfather passed away on the 24th.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] Okay. And so this was a couple months later. A couple months later. Okay.

Kristy Money [00:49:45] Yeah. So did not go well, so.

John Dehlin [00:49:48] Oh, that's awful.

Kristy Money [00:49:50] It's pretty bad.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] And, and has any, you know, have things gotten better or worse since. Since August. From August to. To. To May, you know, to July 2015.

Kristy Money [00:50:08] Worse. It's just gotten worse. And so, I mean, you're familiar with dialectical behavioral therapy. Like, I can't control their actions. I can only, you know, change my relationship with what's going on. So I've, you know, I've decided to stop asking to come home and to.

Kristy Money [00:50:28] To just mourn the loss of. Of that kind of a relationship and hopefully we'll get to a new normal someday. But. And just let me say, like, I know I've been, like, been sharing some hard stuff, but it's when I hear, and I have heard, you know, from many Mormons over the years about other treatments. Like, a woman was told by her, both her mother and her sister that when she just came out as a feminist, like, not even, not even ordained women related, but they said, well, you should consider us adopting your kids because, you know, you want them to be raised in a righteous home.

Kristy Money [00:51:14] Right? You know, so. And then, you know, people getting fired because they're working in a family business and, you know, they come out with doubts or concerns and then they get fired and. Or people reminding. This happened to a friend of mine who they. She lost her. Her. Her baby stillborn. And family members use that as an opportunity to try to get her to come back to church activity because you want to be together for your, you know, forever with your baby. Right? You know, they. They said that to her, you know, so just like, I think I have it bad, but I really don't.

Kristy Money [00:51:56] Compared to. I mean, it's an. This tribal shaming is really problematic for our mental health. It just. I really hope that that eases over the years because, I mean, that my story is nothing compared to stories I've heard. I'm sure you've heard, too.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Sounds. It sounds pretty hard. So what about the. What about the argument that you are a covenant breaker? I mean, you are, right?

Kristy Money [00:52:25] I don't think so. I mean, in fact, my baptismal covenants are to mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort. And women are in pain. And my worst experience was not being able to hold my baby, which is not the worst thing in the world. But I have a relative who.

Kristy Money [00:52:47] Her bishop is refusing to give her a temple recommend because her parents don't want her to marry this guy. And so they think that they can, you know, influence the bishop to, you know, to do. And that's patriarchy. You know, that's a problem. Like these worthiness interviews, you know, with male only lay leadership, you know, controlling things like worthiness and, you know, being able to get married or being able to watch a wedding. You know, this needs. That's worse, that's bad. And then I had another friend who's.

Kristy Money [00:53:23] Who was told by. By a guy that she babysat for, she babysat his kids for that. That he. He was begging her to not get married when she was going off to college because he wanted to save her as a plural wife, you know, like, and she was a bit traumatized by that, you know, this and that. Polygamy is, I think, inherently tied to this, you know, patriarchal order. Yeah, this is a real pain here, and I'm committed to trying to do all I can about it.

Balancing Covenants, Conscience, and Church Loyalty

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Okay, so you feel like you're following your baptismal covenants. What about your temple covenants of obedience?

Kristy Money [00:54:05] Yeah, so I tracked that original saying of obedience is the first law of heaven and originally comes from a prophet saying that, like, order is the first law of heaven. Like, you know, the order of. Of gravity and the sun and the stars, you know, moving. And then it just got morphed and twisted into obedience being the first law of heaven. And I mean, yeah, you could. You could argue I'm justifying my own disobedience, but I mean, in. So much in human history goes wrong, not from disobedience, but from obedience. Like Howard Zinn. Right. So who. I mean, Howard Zinn in the people's History of the United States, like, he makes that point over and over again that time and time, like in not just US History, but world history, like when, like, you know, complete obedience to authority without following your moral conscience, that leads to some pretty bad stuff.

Kristy Money [00:55:00] So, like, as moral agents, it's our responsibility, I think, to speak up. So now I think. And I also see, like, in terms of, like, the temple questions, like, do you sustain your leaders? Like, I. My definition of sustain and the bishop's definition of sustain are two completely different things. You know, I see sustain as, you know, recognizing their position, but also Being willing to speak up and being able to, you know, hopefully influence. Influence them for good. Brigham Young said something to that effect, and.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Yeah, but you're an open rebellion against the prophet and his apostles.

Kristy Money [00:55:41] Well, I mean, if open rebellion is, you know, asking a question, yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] No. Staging a demonstration when you're told not to on the church's sacred temple ground. I mean, it's. Some would say it's a lot more, you know, a lot more rebellious and, you know, sort of in your face than just asking a question. You're staging an international media event to shame and embarrass the church into bending to your wishes. I mean, that's how some would describe it.

Kristy Money [00:56:14] Yeah. Yeah. And I've definitely heard that. And, yeah, I mean, the media was involved, but, I mean, we tried letters ahead of time. They went unanswered. In fact, we didn't get an official response until, like, a week after the New York Times article, when. I mean, because absolute silence, like I said, from the newsroom, like, they didn't want to acknowledge New York Times. But all of a sudden, like, a week later, bam, you know, we get this public letter from Michael Utterson saying, basically, I mean, like, we won't negotiate with terrorists, which. Which was hard to read. But we read the letter carefully, and it said, like, they requested that we.

Kristy Money [00:56:57] That we go to the protest zone, which was, you know, a very strategic move to paint us as. As, you know, apostates and anti Mormon. But, you know, we. We respectfully declined that invitation. But they didn't. They didn't tell us to stay off Temple Square, and nobody was stopping us. Like, we. We were, you know, and there are plenty of guards. Like, we would. And we were very, you know, conscientious of that. Nobody told us to get off. So, I mean, they. So we just. We went on peacefully without, you know, you were there without making a ruckus just reverently in our temple, our Sunday best, just going on.

Kristy Money [00:57:37] The place was just sacred to me, too. I mean, by the way, like, I was married there. That's why it's been so hard to lose my recommend, because I know I can't go back there to, you know, into the temple, like, where seven years ago we were married. I mean, it's growing up that Temple Square was my favorite place on earth. Like, literally, ask anyone who knew me growing up, that's the only place that I'd want a vacation, and I'd spend hours there. I'd always be like, okay, take me to Temple Square. And it still is and it was a very sacred experience for me, using my body to demonstrate my desire for equality.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] So I have to confess some significant privilege here. I mean, obviously I'm dripping with it, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna just note one very significant aspect of privilege for me as a, as an, as an aspiring Mormon activist, and that's that I think I always knew that my mom and dad would still love and accept me even if I did the things I did, because that's just the way my mom and dad are.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] And I've worried about my sisters and brother, but they've been real, relatively super loving to me. And to this day, I have. I. I would say I have really good relationships with all my immediate family. And I just have to ask you, like, how in the world is it worth it to lose?

John Dehlin [00:59:08] To get to the point where you can't even go home to your parents, where you're completely estranged from them and totally cut off from your siblings? How in the world could this be worth it, first off? And then secondly, why not just cave and go back? It's your family. You know,

Kristy Money [00:59:29] that is a really good question, one I have thought and rethought over the last year.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] Sorry to be so.

Kristy Money [00:59:39] No, no, it's, it's fine. No, these, these are, these are the, the right questions. A couple things. One is that I just feel very strongly that if I, if I don't do this, then who will? Because, I mean, yeah, you're, you're lucky. And, and I mean, others are too, that they have, they have family members who don't react this way, but so many are in my situation or worse. Like I said earlier, I have heard much worse stories than mine, and I am very lucky that I have Rolf who supports me no matter what and is a fellow organizer. So we're in this together. I cannot imagine.

Kristy Money [01:00:25] And it's the case with many women, I'd say most women, that their husbands are not on board with equality. I mean, because they grew up with knowing that they would have the priesthood and that that's their duty and responsibility to preside and to lead one day. And I mean, that's a hard thing to shake. And, you know, Rolf's been great unpacking that privilege and he's committed for equality for our daughters too, and our granddaughters. So, okay, so I have Rolf, I have my in laws, and to the credit of my extended family, I have some amazing members, especially on my dad's side, who would never turn me away and have it.

Kristy Money [01:01:17] And even though none of them. Nobody agrees with me. It's fine, though, because they'll. They'll welcome me into their home. They'll. They'll support me when I'm, you know, when I'm sobbing. Because I. It's just. It's. I'm. I miss, you know, having a relationship with my sisters. Not. Not to. Not as a mother. I mean, of course not. That's why I think the. The idea that I'm trying to, you know, to be their surrogate mother, to recruit them to a feminist agenda is just. Is bizarre. But I just want a relationship with them as a sister. But it's.

Kristy Money [01:01:56] Doesn't seem like that's going to happen. And my extended family can mourn with me about that, so that's because they understand. They know my mother, so that's been really great. So it hasn't been all bad because I have them. And then why not just give up? I just. Like I said.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] But I'm saying. You're saying it's been worth it. All the pain that you've experienced has been worth it so far?

Kristy Money [01:02:32] Yes, because I have been my authentic self. I don't. I could not have have kept silence like this. I mean, it. And, and, you know, this, that. That we need authenticity to stay healthy, for our minds to just. To not feel like we're hiding something or that there's something about us that's not acceptable. So we need to. I mean, there's a constant anxiety, as you can imagine, when you have to hide that. So, yes, it has been excruciating, but mollified by some great family members.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Okay.

Kristy Money [01:03:14] But worth it.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] Okay. Worth it. So. So that's why you're not going to turn back, is that right?

Kristy Money [01:03:21] Yeah, no, I mean, the. It's. The cause is. Is bigger than me. I mean, this is. It's. There are so many other people who. Who have just as much to risk as I do, and. And they're doing it too, in their own way. So, I mean, I just. And I feel like it. It's. It's also very. On a spiritual level, I feel like. Like I'm where I need to be. So until I'm told differently by. By a higher power, I will continue.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] And. Are you. Are you close to any of your siblings today or cut off from all of them?

Kristy Money [01:03:57] I'm pretty much cut off from all of them. Yeah. I've. The youngest is 10, and it's. It's excruciating.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] How old's the oldest?

Kristy Money [01:04:10] 28.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Oh, wow.

Kristy Money [01:04:13] 28.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] Okay. Yeah, that's painful.

Kristy Money [01:04:17] Yeah, I miss them.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] And if you could explain to them why you've done. I guess, I guess you've kind of already explained it. Right. But if you could say anything to them, what would you say?

Kristy Money [01:04:33] Oh, and I've tried. It's just that I love them more than anything as their sister, and that I, that I hope that in the future that differences of opinion, differences of, you know, religious belief would never interfere with, you know, the relationship that we have as family. And that I'm not able to see them. Not because I don't want to. I really, really want to. But I, it's, it's out of my hands unless I, you know, obey my parents, of course. But I, I don't even know. Like, even if I, if I did, like, let's say I quit ordain women tomorrow. Like, I, I think they, there's still, they'd be suspicious of my feminism, for example.

Kristy Money [01:05:20] Like, it, there's. When, when fear is, is so entrenched in the relationship. Like, I just, I don't know. Like, it seems irreparable at this point, which is sad. But like I said, it's a grieving process and one that I've seen in my Mormon clients at byu, that you have to reconcile that, you know, the relationship is not, it's not going to be what you had hoped or what, what other people have. But, you know, you, you have to mourn that loss. And I am. I am.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources.

Kristy Money [01:06:24] Cease to make me whole when with a wounded heart, anger or malice I draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 550

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Kristy Money [00:00:36] The kindly light a myth encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

Part Three: Op-Eds, Racism, and Church Scrutiny

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to part three of my interview with Christy Money. It's been so amazing. And part two was, was, was heart wrenching and touching and inspiring where Christy talked about her, her work with, you know. Well, she talked about not being able to hold her second baby during the baby's blessing and how that led to her participation Ordained Women and how inspired and insincere and heartfelt her efforts were, but also how heartbroken she was that it didn't lead to the outcome she had hoped and, and most importantly, how that led to kind of estrangement from her parents and siblings. And it's a really touching and heartbreaking and inspiring story.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] So go listen to the second hour. But now we're going to kind of finish this interview. And Christy, you know, ordained women isn't all you've done. So just talk us through, just if you can, you know, the other activist sort of things that you've been involved in that take us to your discussions with your ecclesiastical leaders.

Kristy Money [00:02:04] Okay, sure. Well, so one story is my creating the Voices of Love website that I did.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] So what was behind that? Why'd you do that?

Kristy Money [00:02:17] Well, okay, I remember exactly where I was was Christmas Eve and Rio de Janeiro. And I heard about, you know, I was celebrating with Rolf about the Supreme Court decision. Not Supreme Court. That was this week.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] The Utah.

Kristy Money [00:02:31] Yeah, yeah. So it's about Utah granting marriages for everyone. And yeah, it was, that was a good day. But then, but also like hearing some responses and particularly from North Star and Voices of Hope, like that these are, these relationships are subpar and that, you know, that heterosexual marriage or celibacy or you're really only two options. And I just, I couldn't sleep. I just, I wanted to do something because I knew about suicide rates and I knew that like a life of celibacy or being married to someone that you can't have, you know, that same connection with is. Is just gonna make people feel hopeless. And so to mention the divorce rates

John Dehlin [00:03:21] and quality of life, you know, ratings, the depression, the anxiety, the self loathing, not just of the same sex partner, but also the, the straight partner not feeling loved and attracted. You know, these marriages, as my research kind of covered these marriages in not all cases, but in many cases are just living tragedies. Yeah, yeah.

Kristy Money [00:03:44] So I, so I put together just stories of Mormon or formerly Mormon couples who were in relationships or got married just to show, to show youth mainly. But anyone who's, who's struggling and wondering, like, is there a future? For me that there is. And it's, you know, there's more options than, than we think, you know, that, that you don't. It's not just celibacy or no marriage to someone of the opposite sex. So yeah, I mean, mainly to just to keep, to keep suicide rates down, to keep people from, from, you know, being incredibly depressed. And yeah, I helped a bit, but

John Dehlin [00:04:34] I, So that was. That's voicesoflove.com and did you have any interaction with Ty Mansfield during that process?

Kristy Money [00:04:44] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] Did you try and reach out to him or anything?

Kristy Money [00:04:47] No, I didn't. But I've heard that others have and that he's listening to other perspectives and so that's good. There's been a lot of progress since last year when I put the site together, but it's just telling stories, just the picture in people's stories of how they met and, you know, how they felt like they could never be happy, but they were, they found the right one and now they are. And a lot of them had kids, so there's beautiful family pictures. So I just, I wanted people to see that and to know that there's hope beyond celebration.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Great site. Voicesoflove.org okay, what else? What next did you do?

Kristy Money [00:05:36] Well, let's see. I, so I've, I've written those polygamy op eds.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] Okay, talk about that real quick.

Kristy Money [00:05:44] Sure. I. It was really upsetting to me because I knew that the polygamy essay was coming out by the church, but I didn't expect them to, to like own polygamy. So so much like, I mean, the race in the priesthood essay had come out earlier and they did a much better job of laying out imperfections, that leaders had made some mistakes. And so I figured that they'd say, well, Joseph made a mistake. He wasn't perfect, but he was a prophet.

Kristy Money [00:06:17] But no, it was absolutely. Joseph was just an obedient servant. And as a, after my time Doing my internship with juvenile sex offenders. And let me say, because that was the bishop's first thing was you think that Joseph Smith was a sex offender? No, but I mean, there were some. There were some. Really.

Kristy Money [00:06:45] There were some red flags in the essay for me about how. How they. They mentioned that Joseph kept it quiet and he. He told, you know, the people that, I mean, the, the women and the girls that he.

Kristy Money [00:07:02] That he wanted to marry, you know, to. To not tell anybody. And, and so, and then when I found out that this would be in. In seminary and institute manuals, I said, you know, wait a minute. Let's, you know, take a step back here. This is.

Kristy Money [00:07:19] I don't think we should be condoning this kind of behavior just for youth. They shouldn't be hearing about this, that, well, all of this was commanded by God. Let's let people make up their own minds about that. And yeah, it didn't go very well. And family's upset about that too, that I'm, you know, that I'm ruining the prophet Joseph. But I think he made a serious mistake there. So. Yeah. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] So for you, Joseph's behaviors around polygamy with young girls sets a bad example for our youth and for our adults.

Kristy Money [00:08:00] Yes. Especially how in the essay it says that, well, initially these young women and women were repulsed by the idea, but that they obeyed anyway and that they eventually got a confirmation. So, like, these young girls reading this and you know, in seminary, they could be hearing, well, okay, it's okay to compromise your morality short term because you'll eventually get a confirmation long term. Like that is. That is what.

Kristy Money [00:08:26] What manipulators can use to their advantage. So in this day, not talking about Joseph's day, modern day. So. And, and yeah, I just, I was really surprised that the church went so gung ho about the obedience thing to polygamy. I was like, wow, okay.

Kristy Money [00:08:48] So, yeah, that, that was really important to me because I really. I really care about the next generation and my daughters and just every young woman who would be going through this curriculum. And it's. I want them to not have to hear that, but it's happening anyway. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:09:10] Yeah. And then. And then the other two op EDS that I wrote, what was that?

John Dehlin [00:09:15] What was the reaction to those?

Kristy Money [00:09:18] Well, very positive from. From a lot of people who had similar concerns but didn't want to voice them. And so, you know, they were anxious about teaching polygamy. And so, you know, they're glad that they had something to point to. I mean, as you can imagine, the family Response was abysmal, but it was how I felt. And I really, I'm really hoping that even if, like, the church doesn't revise the essay, because they haven't yet, I don't think they will. That, you know, parents and seminary teachers will think twice before they, they, they say that, well, obviously it was God commanded. You know, they can bring a little nuance into that. And, and you even, you know, say how they really think, because a lot, A lot of people don't think that polygamy was, Was from God, but just. It's hard to. Hard to say that.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Sure.

Kristy Money [00:10:15] In our culture.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Sure. Okay, so other, Other ones.

Kristy Money [00:10:20] Okay, so I wrote two more op EDS about racism and addressing it in the church and how, like, an apology from. About the priesthood and temple ban is needed and that we need to discuss these issues more. And it was ironic because that's actually, that was the tipping point for my discipline. It wasn't about ow, though. I mean, the bishop made it very, very clear that, like, he had.

Kristy Money [00:10:52] He was upset about my apostasy with ordained women and polygamy, you know, condemning polygamy. But the tipping point was that some racist comments were being made in Relief Society. And I challenged it. They were, they were trying to justify the council against interracial marriage.

Kristy Money [00:11:19] And the teacher said, 2014 or 14. Yeah, it's in the current manual. And that wasn't the lesson, though. The lesson was about. Was Benson's 14 fundamentals and following the prophet. That was what the lesson was about. And then interracial marriage came up just by someone in the room. And then the teacher tried to justify it, like, well. And she opened the question, like, well, why do you think the prophets would counsel against that? Like, there must be a really good reason. But the one black woman in the room just said, without even raising her hand, she said, ignorance. And I was like, yes.

Kristy Money [00:11:59] But then the teacher and others in the room tried to justify it to be like, no, no, no, and corrected her like, no, the prophets don't make mistakes. Like, there wasn't ignorance. And I. So I raised my hand and said, no, she's right. It's the appropriate word choice.

Kristy Money [00:12:16] We know from our own history that the prophets make mistakes and that they're influenced by their culture and, you know, just like they made a mistake about the priesthood and temple ban. And then, like, the room erupted. It did not. It did not go well.

Kristy Money [00:12:32] What do you mean? Well, everyone went to the defense of the prophet that, well, no, no, this was a different time. But the prophet can Never lead you astray. That they say that. And I'm like, well, and I. At that point, we were just. We're out of time. And so in my head, I'm like, well, no, but they do. So.

Kristy Money [00:12:55] Yeah, but just tons of defensiveness. And. Yeah. Then the bishop said that because he heard about it after the fact and said that it rarely upset women, that I would. That I would. That would contradict the teacher, and that. So he needed to call me in and then silenced me and took away my recommend, all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Okay, wait. So. So. And so when was this. When did this event happen?

Kristy Money [00:13:22] On the week before Father's Day. And then.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] So we're talking in June, kind of early June.

Kristy Money [00:13:29] Yeah. And then. So he called me in his office a week later, so on Father's Day.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Okay, so. So before June, had you had any significant interactions with church leaders?

Kristy Money [00:13:43] Not in June. We. I was. Before June, yes. In. In March, They. He called me in, like, when he had just been called as bishop and said, I need to take away your recommend because you're on the board of Ordained Women. And I said, well, wait, wait. You know, hello, my name is Christy Money. Nice to meet you. You know, because we hadn't even met.

Bishop Interviews and Informal Sanctions

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Okay, but wait, let me pause you before. Take me to the first negative, you know, bishop interaction you've had since your activism. Is this it, or is there something else?

Kristy Money [00:14:14] Oh, no. Well, I mean, that. That's. That's a long story, but in terms

John Dehlin [00:14:19] of a high level, like.

Kristy Money [00:14:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just highlights. I'll just tell a quick story. This happened in Austin, very similar thing. They called me in. They. He wanted. The stake president wanted to talk about. About my activism. And then. And so. And I spent, like, two hours talking with him. And he was really concerned. He was a good guy. You know, they always are. These are great guys who are just, you know, feeling like they need to obey, you know, the counsel from higher up and, you know, which is we're apostates. So anyway.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] And Austin was after Rio. Remind me.

Kristy Money [00:15:00] Yes, Austin was after Rio.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Okay, so this is after the second action.

Kristy Money [00:15:05] Yeah, it was after the second action. He knew about it all that. But. And so he called me in afterwards. And. And, like, I explained, like, a lot of things I'm explaining to you, you know, about Hannah, the temple.

Kristy Money [00:15:16] Temple wall, and. And Emma asking about, you know, for a revelation. And. And, you know, I explained a lot of the things that are in the six discussions and Which I hadn't even finished writing it, but, you know, it's All. I had it all in my head. So. So after I explained all this to him, he's like, wow, you know, I can see that you're. You know, that you're not at risk of apostasy, but.

Kristy Money [00:15:46] But if you say any of this to anybody in the ward or make any of these feelings known, like, you could corrupt them. So, again, like, the needing to isolate the. So he's like, so I need you not to talk about it ever.

Kristy Money [00:16:00] Not even in the hallways. And so it wasn't an official sanction because I still did talk. I bore my testimony about. Without saying exactly what it was. I bore my testimony of the action and how that was a really spiritual experience for me.

Kristy Money [00:16:22] But he was really, really worried, and we were about to move, so. So, I mean, he hinted at further discipline if I didn't obey. But then we moved from Austin to Georgia. To Georgia.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] To Georgia.

Kristy Money [00:16:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] And you were living in, like, where University of Georgia is. In Athens.

Kristy Money [00:16:43] Yeah, in Athens. So. And he also. Oh, I forgot. Yeah, this is important part of the story. In Austin, he said that this silence that he put me under and would transfer with me to Georgia. And so I was worried. And he was worried, too. He was really, really concerned about ordained women, which I find really ironic because at the same time, and I didn't find this out until we moved to Athens, but within the stake leadership, there was spousal abuse going on, and he knew about it, but he let it go on and didn't believe the wife for a while. And I only knew about it because she reached out to ordained women afterward. But anyway, like. So he was more worried about ordained women than spousal abuse. It was just. It was very strange.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] Okay, so. So your Austin bishop tells you that this informal sanction of kind of silence is going to carry with you to Georgia. Right, right.

Kristy Money [00:17:48] My stake president, actually.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Okay. Stake president. So. Okay, so. So from there, you move to Georgia and you meet with your bishop, and your first meeting in March of 2015 is what is.

Kristy Money [00:18:03] I need to take your recommend in 2015.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] Now, this is the. This is newly moved to Georgia.

Kristy Money [00:18:10] No, I had been in Georgia for a while, but he was. He was new as a bishop.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Okay, okay, so the previous bishop was.

Kristy Money [00:18:16] Okay, the last bishop. He knew about me, but I. From what I'm hearing from others who knew him, he. He was ready to not be bishop anymore and did not want to deal with me. He knew about me, but he knew he was getting released soon. And I mean, as you can imagine, having an ordained women board member in your ward is daunting. So, yeah, so he.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Okay, so the first bishop kind of ignored it and passed the buck. And then when you got a new bishop called in Athens, Georgia, he meets with you for the first time in March of 2015.

Kristy Money [00:18:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:58] And he says, what?

Kristy Money [00:19:00] Well, he. He says, you can't be following the prophet for being involved with Lord and women. So I need your recommend. And so I tried to de escalate it, and I think we did it together. He. And we had a. I think a productive conversation. And so the de escalation, I think, went well. And I just said, look, just get to know me.

Kristy Money [00:19:22] You know, I explained my. You know, my feelings, a lot of things that I just had said to you just now. And so he said, okay, well, this actually came from the stake president. He's the one who wanted me to do this, so he'll probably want to meet with you, but for now, you know, you're. You're still worthy to go to the temple. I mean, he asked me all the temple recommend questions, and I answered all of them, you know, in the affirmative. So he said, so, yeah, since it's what the state president wanted, you know, he'll meet with you. But he never did. So I didn't hear from the state president.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:19:57] And then the Relief Society meeting happened in June.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] So you're. So it really was you speaking up in the local meeting where you questioned the inerrancy or the errancy of the brethren that really tripped the kind of Father's Day meeting, Is that right?

Kristy Money [00:20:21] Yeah, well, in his words, he said it was the tipping point. However, he said that he had been thinking about doing this for a while, and because I've been sending him. Send him the photo illustrations, like the baptism photo with me and Ralph that I'm sure he wasn't happy about. And, you know, when I wrote stuff, so. And, you know, the six discussion, so he knew, you know, about what I was, what I was doing. I kept him up to speed. But. So, yeah, he said that he'd been having promptings that he needed to do this, but that Relief Society meeting was what triggered.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] And so how did that meeting go? Like, why did you give him your recommend? Like, you don't have to give it to him.

Kristy Money [00:21:05] Right, right. I mean, he. He requested it, but, I mean, he'd already requested it before in March. So, like, I, you know, they. And they could deactivate it, but I made it clear that I thought that what he was doing was wrong, but that I am. I'M not going to obey his, his sanction to, to not talk and his counsel. And he said, pray about it, you know, think about it for a while that you can't be a member and be an ordained women. I said, I've thought about, I prayed about this for two years and, you know, I think I can. So I'm not going to obey that counsel and not going to be quiet.

Kristy Money [00:21:48] So, you know, here, here it is. When he asked for it, I mean, like, I, like you said, it wasn't just me. Like, trust me, this, that piece of paper was the most important thing to me ever since I turned 12. I always had it on me and active. Even when, you know, when you're doing baptisms and you don't have to have one current. But I always did. It was, it was super important to me. So.

Kristy Money [00:22:14] But I mean, this is, like I said, we make baptismal covenants to, you know, help. Help those who are suffering and are in pain. And, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna stop that just because it's getting hard. So.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] Yeah, so tell me more about that conversation with him. What else was discussed?

Kristy Money [00:22:38] Well, he wanted to talk about polygamy for a while because he did not like the op EDS either, the polygamy ones. And so he like asked me point blank, like, do you think Joseph was wrong to marry to practice polygamy? And I said, yes. I said, but I don't, I don't remember that being on the temple recommend questions.

Kristy Money [00:23:01] And then he asked about the, you know, how I felt about the temple and priesthood ban because that's what triggered, you know, the meeting from, from last week and, and who. He said, like, when I said, yeah, I think that that was a mistake and that it was informed by the racism in our culture.

Kristy Money [00:23:23] And he said, so you're just saying that the church went to pot, right, when they banned the priesthood? I said, well, no, not necessarily, but I don't think that's what God wanted. And so, and we got back on Track in 1978 when enough people had, well, I mean, the Genesis group had, had been talking to these brethren and Spencer W. Kimball himself, saying I had a lot to work through myself mostly. I mean, he said in his own words in his biography that I had grown up with the idea and he used the word the Negro should never have the priesthood. And I was going to lay down my life to defend that.

Kristy Money [00:24:08] So, I mean, yeah, ouch. He was struggling with his own privilege and some pretty horrible beliefs that luckily ended. So, yeah, he didn't really like that, though. And I talked about that.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Okay, all right.

Kristy Money [00:24:28] And then. So, like, 90% of the conversation was about ordained women. Like, he wanted to know about the six discussions and why I would do that and that. And he said, like, well, that's leading people astray. And I'm like, no, I mean, it's just starting a conversation. We're asking the questions, like, well, you can't do that publicly. I said, well, where would you prefer that we do that? You know, we have these secret meetings, you know. No, I like. And Ali Isom said, this is the perfect place, like, in church. Like, people who have questions, you bring it up in church. And. But he. He did not agree with that.

Kristy Money [00:25:02] So when that wasn't going anywhere, then he brought up two other things that I'm. I haven't mentioned before, but I'm mentioning here because I think that this brings a lot of. Of pain and undue suffering to members. So, like. So maybe in telling this that hopefully this, you know, bishops will stop doing this. But he also, he didn't ask me all the temple recommend questions because he'd already asked them a couple months ago, and I answered them affirmatively. But then. But he. He brought up tithing. He said, so are you a full tithe payer? And I said, yes. And he said, well, but you haven't turned anything in.

Kristy Money [00:25:40] And I'm like, wow, well, that's really intrusive. Like, it's supposed to be between me and God. And, you know, Ralph and I have been postdocs, and I've been unemployed. And so we. And I did a ton of research when we were in Rio, and I saw, like, real poverty in the favelas and going to church with these members and hearing about a talk given in conference that, you know, if you can't pay your rent, pay your tithing, if you can't afford groceries for your family, you know, pay your tithing. And that really was unsettling for me. So in doing some research, I'd read about profits, like Lorenzo Snow saying, you pay 10% of your increase for those who have means.

Kristy Money [00:26:31] Like those. Those who have means should do it. But they took that part out of the manual, the Lorenzo Snow Manual. I had to look up the original, and I thought, well, that's a little misleading and, you know, especially for. For people who are in. Who are in real poverty, like our. Our situation where we're not having an increase, you know, right now because we're just, you know, surviving day to day. I hope, you know, That'll change when I'm employed. But I mean, you know how it can be with grad students and postdocs, student loans and all that. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of pressure to pay on gross.

Kristy Money [00:27:09] And that. That was taken out of the Lorenzo Snow manual was really disconcerting for me. And so since. Since then, since we found that out, you know, we've been paying on increase, which for the last couple years has been, you know, zero.

Kristy Money [00:27:27] But that can be really shaming for people when they, you know, with. When you have your tithing settlement at the end of the year. That bishops, they don't just. I mean, first of all, it's when they see everything in front of them and saying, are you paying a full tithing? You know, that they know your finances. You know, people can do the math and can, you know, times it by.

Kristy Money [00:27:49] By 10 and figure out, you know, what your income is. But then, like, I have heard much worse stories than mine where people, like, where the bishops, they say, well, that can't be accurate, you know, or that. Or, you know, asking really intrusive questions. So. And, you know, and that had never happened to me.

Kristy Money [00:28:11] I'd had really good experiences with bishops who. Like, when. Because when I was at byu, you know, I was. I was on scholarship, but I wasn't really. I wasn't really making anything. So, like, I didn't have much to report at all. And. And so. But the bishops, they were always so kind. They never, you know, gave me a hard time about it, which I think is what you should do to college students. You should.

Kristy Money [00:28:37] Yeah, you should be empathic. But. But at that Father's Day meeting, when I said yes, he's. He said, really? And then. And then just said a super, I think, intrusive question, like, well, how do you survive? Like in a not not believing it type of way. And then.

Kristy Money [00:29:00] Then afterwards, it said, what I've heard many people have experienced with their bishops, where they get counsel just to. To say, and this is what he said to me is, well, I can just testify to you that when I was a poor college student and I wasn't making. I wouldn't have an increase either. You know, I had student loans, too, but I paid on gross anyway, and the blessings, you know, were predicated upon that. So I would encourage you to pay on gross, too. I'm like, wow, you know, okay, it finally happened to me. You know, I've heard. I've heard it happen to a lot of my friends.

Kristy Money [00:29:37] And that's why I encourage people To. To do the online thing where it's confidential, because, like, this is. That's really, really violating to be asked those questions. And beyond just the straight temple recommend question to. To be grilled like that. And. And especially if, you know, you're low income and. Or. And that's a systemic thing, like, you're not getting out of it. Like I said, like, I. We're. Ralph and I are privileged. This is. This is just temporary for us, but it's not for a lot of people. And so to feel pressure that, you know, they need to pay tithing before they feed their families, before they pay rent, before they pay, you know, electricity bills, like that, that just really hurts my heart. So.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] And my understanding is they're not supposed to add anything to the temple recommend questions, basically.

Kristy Money [00:30:30] Oh, yeah, they're not supposed to. And like I said, up until that Father's Day meeting, it hadn't happened to. However, for years now, I've been hearing stories from Mormons and friends who that has happened to, especially because a lot of our friends, they are poor graduate students also. And at the time, I think the first time I heard about this happening to someone was in 2009. So. Anyway.

Kristy Money [00:30:56] But it just feels so wrong to do that, even though, yes, you're right. They're counseled not to, but I guess it's tempting to make sure that you're doing your due diligence and make sure that they are on the other. Pressure to pay on gross and all. Anyway, so I said, well, by my understanding of what Lorenzo R. Snow says, we are. And I feel like this is very intrusive. And then. So he let that one go.

Kristy Money [00:31:28] And then he brought up. Right after that, he brought up, well, what about your. Your Sunday attendance? You. You've been late, you know, the last few weeks to church. And I'm like, really? And I, Like, I was silent for a while because I don't know, like, what to say, but, like, I'm. I'm pregnant with twins, and I'm sick, you know, like, all the time. And, you know, you're gonna ask me, like, why I'm late to church and hold me to, you know, perfect attendance or even close to it. Like, I have been.

Kristy Money [00:31:59] Been really, really rough in the first trimester with twins. Anyway, so all this to say, like, I really think that if women were ordained, you know, you'd never have a question like that, because women would know what that's like, and they would never question, well, you know, your attendance.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Yeah.

Kristy Money [00:32:17] To a pregnant woman, it sounds like

John Dehlin [00:32:19] he was just kind of stretching a little bit. Reaching, you know. Reaching.

Kristy Money [00:32:25] Yeah, that's what it. Yeah. So I. I tried to shut that one down too, with. With bringing up the twins. And so he realized he was going nowhere with that. He said, no. I mean, I am. I do strive to attend my meetings. Just pregnant with twins. He's like, okay. And then he went back to talking about, you know, my apostasy and all that. So. Okay. It was. It was a really strange meeting. Honestly. I.

John Dehlin [00:32:45] How did it feel? Like, overall, how did it feel?

Kristy Money [00:32:49] Well, I had. I wasn't sobbing like I was in the first March meeting just because it took me by surprise. He was like, going to take away my recommend. And I just met this. Met him. I guess I was.

Kristy Money [00:33:03] It still. Like, afterwards, I ended up crying. But at the time, I just felt like. Like this is unjust. I. I am just being authentic here. And. And yeah, I. And I didn't want any other woman to be in this position again. I didn't want anyone to feel this way. It's just.

Kristy Money [00:33:26] And I also. It was hard too, because he mentioned that. Well, like, it's really painful for him to do this. Like, it literally. He says it physically hurts. And I believed him. It's true. Like, I'm sure it does. Like, he's a good guy. And so, like, I just. I remember thinking, like, then why are we doing this? Like, it hurts you. It hurts me. You know, it's gonna hurt a lot of people in the ward who have similar feelings that I do who, you know, aren't speaking up because they don't want the same thing to happen to me. So, like. So why are we doing this anyway? That. That's. That's what I remember.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] Okay. And. And it was kind of to no avail. I mean, you left. Left with. With what? Sanctions? No, no temple rec.

Kristy Money [00:34:14] And I. I couldn't talk in church even if someone called on me, can't raise my hand. You know, I have to explain that I can't speak because I'm disciplined. It's all in the handbook. And then I was, you know, strongly encouraged not to write any more op eds. And to that I can't be an ordained women and a member of the church, that I was supposed to pray about all that, but I said, I will pray about it, but I have been praying about it for a couple years. And, you know, my answer is I can't obey that. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] So in the end, you feel like you're being considered for discipline based on what? Like what. What the reasons he gave you to

Kristy Money [00:34:57] summarize are, what are my writing? The op eds, ordained women. And then if I don't be silent, I mean, that's the big thing. Like, They gave me counsel so I can choose to obey or not obey it. And I told him that I can't, that my conscience won't let me obey that.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] But there's women who are part of the ordained board who have not been called in. Right.

Kristy Money [00:35:36] Yeah. Yeah. And I am. I'm so glad. And that's.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] So that is impossible to predict. That in and of itself is not cause for a disciplinary hearing. Right.

Kristy Money [00:35:51] Well, I mean, it. It was for Kate, but it's not always cause.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] In some cases, it hasn't been caused.

Kristy Money [00:35:58] Right, Absolutely. Yeah. Some. Some they've. They've been able to keep their recommend. Some they've been threatened that they won't. Their recommend won't be renewed, but they didn't yank it then and there.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Okay. So that in and of itself isn't enough. So. So then you got to say, it's. It's those op eds which basically say, I don't like polygamy, and we've got more work to do on racism. Right. And the brethren can make mistakes.

Kristy Money [00:36:28] Yeah. Yeah. He really was not happy about that.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] So they don't like. They don't like public expressions of doubt or disbelief.

Kristy Money [00:36:35] Well, he said that explicitly. Yeah. That you can have these thoughts, you can have these feelings, and you can talk to them with us, but you. That's. It's not appropriate to be public about it.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] Okay. And. And then he doesn't like you talking about doubts or questions or concerns in your local congregation.

Kristy Money [00:36:53] Yeah, well. And I haven't even, in Relief Society or Sunday School, I mean, brought up ordained women. I just. I've just. I think, in my opinion, respectfully pushed back a little bit against, you know, especially. I remember a comment like the week before about how someone had said Harold B. Lee counseled them in a BYU devotional, that sometimes you have to turn your mind off, let your mind catch up, you know, and to.

Kristy Money [00:37:22] And I was like, well, I'm not sure. Like, you know, in D&C, 8, 2 and 3, we talk about how, you know, you have to, you know, by your mind and your heart, you'll receive things. So you need both anyway, just little things like that. I'm obviously not their typical Mormon woman. And so in his words, I caused contention. And so by, you know, I'm just. If. If pushing back against racist comments is contentious, then guilty as charged. I. Yes, I am.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:37:58] I want to apologize for that.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] Okay. And so. So tell me. Tell me what you've thought or felt as you've witnessed Kate be excommunicated, Me get excommunicated. Rock, Waterman, Marisa and Carson. Like, surely you know that there are risks here, that your membership's in jeopardy. And yet two things. You. You've continued to attend church, and you've continued to act in ways that you knew would lead to this day. So, I mean, in some sense, someone could even say you've been asking for it, but talk about what it's been like for you over the past year to see all this and why you've kept it up.

Facing a Formal Disciplinary Council

Kristy Money [00:38:50] Well, I. So I was there when Kate got excommunicated. I was sitting right next to her. And, you know, I know Kate's not. You know, she doesn't get. Let things get to her a lot, but she was. She just broke down crying when she read those words. And so, yeah, it really had an effect on me. And I've.

Kristy Money [00:39:09] I've thought that it could be possibility, but honestly, since I wasn't the public face of ordained women, and I did that for a reason, I didn't think that it would lead to excommunication. And I'm still hopeful that they'll make the right choice and de. Escalate because it's cutting someone off from. From the church. That's. That's horrible. And so I. I'm actually. I'm still optimistic that that won't happen, but if it does, well, see, I can feel myself still being like, well, but that won't happen. You know, my own anxiety is like, well. But no, no, no, they're not going to do that.

Kristy Money [00:39:55] Yeah, I. I'm just. We have a. Ralph and I are going to be on vacation anyway for. For a month. So, you know, we can be thinking about this, like, what are our next steps? Knowing that if, you know, further discipline will result. I mean, I honestly, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I know I'm not gonna be silent, so I guess, well, it means either I stop attending or I just. I keep talking and we'll see what happens. I don't know what I'm gonna do.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] Okay, so you. You know, you've been aware, you've witnessed all the different disciplinary actions, and you're. You're pretty much aware that you're. You know, that you were aware that your actions could likely lead to a disciplinary council.

Kristy Money [00:40:48] I'm aware of it, but it Just. I don't know. And then here's me just being a little delusional, but I can't imagine they do that because Kate was. Was, you know, the. The founder, the public face, and. And it had such a fallout. Like, people. It devastated people. People who thought, well, there's no place for me. Like, I don't. I don't imagine they'd do that again. For women, there's just so. Such bad pr, too. I mean, just on a. Just on a practical level, doesn't seem worth it.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Okay, so you. You still hold out hope, and. But. But you're gonna. You're gonna. You're not gonna stay silent because it's a matter of principle for you. So you're absolutely. You're sort of publicly declining your. Your bishop's request, right?

Kristy Money [00:41:43] Yeah, well, publicly. But I. I told him in person before that.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] I told him privately at. Well, yeah, so. So, you know, chances are he's going to wait until you've violated them sufficiently, and then he's going to call a disciplinary council. Right.

Kristy Money [00:42:00] Yes. Yeah. You can see I'm like. I'm not wanting to think about that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] And so it's probably going to happen in the next few months.

Kristy Money [00:42:12] Well, for you. They dragged it on, didn't they?

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Yeah, but with the Calderwoods and with Rock Waterman, I think they're starting to pull the trigger quicker.

Kristy Money [00:42:23] Yeah, well, we'll see. I mean, I have. There's a relative of his who's an amazing woman in the ward, and she might be able to help de. Escalate. She's. She, you know, doesn't agree with me either, obviously, but I don't think believes that, you know, isolating me and cutting me off is the way to go. So, you know, I hold a lot of hope in that. You know, there are good members. There are really good members, and the bishop is, too. He's just following authority. But, yeah, these members locally and. And my family members, they. I guess that's what's giving me this. This fool's hope. But I don't. I don't think it's that foolish that this was. You know, they were. It was just a threat, and they might not go beyond that.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Okay.

Kristy Money [00:43:11] Yes. You're probably thinking, okay, all right.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] You never know. You never know.

Kristy Money [00:43:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] And what do you. How does it affect your feelings about the church or relationship about the church to see them doing this? And, you know, what do you. What do you think they're thinking?

Kristy Money [00:43:33] I think they're thinking what my parents are thinking, that this is a necessary step to get me on the right path. So, like, well, and my dad said that to me explicitly. I called him when I found out about the discipline because I wanted to hear it from me. And it was very cordial and short. Like, I think like, deep down it was, you know, really affecting him. But just a surface level, he was just. Because he sat on disciplinary councils like this, he's in the bishopric. So he's just like, well, just realize that they love you and that this is, that this is just important for your well being.

Kristy Money [00:44:13] And I told him I didn't feel any love in that meeting. And I mean, I know that they think they're doing the right thing, but it's not that silencing a woman is never a good idea. But the conversation went well, even in spite of that. Like, I just said, well, thanks. Thanks for the advice, Dad. I know you love me. And I mean, I, Yeah, of course I got a much longer letter afterwards about, you know, explaining how just like how the church needs to, you know, excommunicate people who, you know, go outside the boundaries. So too, as a family, like, when you do these, do these things with your activism and, you know, you know, as a family, we need to do the same thing.

Kristy Money [00:45:02] So, I mean, like I said, I think that the families like mine, they're just doing. They're just doing the example that the church is setting in the disciplinary process. So I hope that that changes. That would be really great. I know you're thinking, yeah, everyone who's listening is thinking, wow, she really is naive. But I have been called that. But I still have hope.

Hope for Reconciliation and Future Outlook

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Okay, so you're hopeful things could change? You're hopeful that people will learn? Are you, are you hopeful that you'll reconcile with your parents someday and your siblings?

Kristy Money [00:45:39] I, I have, I have tried for the last year, but I'm, I'm realizing that that might not ever happen. Maybe someday with my siblings when, because they're all, they're all in the house now, they're all living at home, but maybe someday, you know, they'll want to have a relationship with their older sister. That would be nice. We'll see.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] Right?

Kristy Money [00:46:04] But I mean, they're just. When you're fed that, that this person is evil and Satan is, is influencing them and, and you need to stay away from them. I mean, that. That's a hard thing to fight, you know, mentally to, to realize, well, you know, she might not be evil. I just hope they'll remember, you know, what that I, that, that I Love them and that I, I cared for them. That's my hope.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] And maybe someday your parents can come around too.

Kristy Money [00:46:37] Oh, yeah. Here's the, here's the, the naive, the typically naive person, though, saying after a year of, of constant, you know, shutdowns and, and not making any progress and if anything getting worse, I'm, I'm kind of resolved to not just being the way things are. So that's why I'm not, you know, asking for anything for them, Diana. Asking to come home anymore, because I just, I can't take that rejection. I just need to mourn that loss. So.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] Okay, so you're, you're backing off and they'll have to make a move.

Kristy Money [00:47:11] Yeah, I mean, if they ever, they ever want to invite me to their home, then of course I'd love to. I invited. They were actually, they were vacationing for a couple weeks in South Carolina, not too far from here, from Georgia. But they didn't come down to see me. We, eventually, we just met up in a neutral spot. I asked them, you know, come down, come visit me. But, but they didn't. And it, and that, that meeting didn't go well either. But yeah, I, I, like I said, it's just getting worse. So we'll see what they, if they ever, they ever want to invite me over, love to have, love to be there.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] You know, the, the, there's, you know, I, I, you know, as I was trying to think about the chess pieces involved and what the brethren or whoever the mid level managers are that are kind of thinking about all this because obviously they can stop it, but they don't. Yeah, I, you know, at first I was like, oh, well, they'll start excommunicating people, but then other people will get upset and then more and more people will face disciplinary councils and at some point the press will keep harping on it and the church will keep getting black eyes.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] And at some point it'll have this critical mass of momentum to where the church will just have to say, I surrender. And they'll kind of stop all this nonsense. But a couple things that are interesting. The press is not interested in really covering subsequent excommunications after mine. So the Calder woods, you know, Rock Waterman, pretty much no interest. And I, I imagine that's going to continue.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] You know, the, the, that's, that's true about, you know, the Salt Lake Tribune and Peggy Fletcher Stack and Radio west, but it's also, it's also true about the New York Times, and that's fine. I, every Every. Every media outlet has to decide what a story is, but. Well, sure, but that surprised me a little bit. But also I wonder if the church has kind of out strategized us in the sense that, you know, the more excommunications they do, honestly, the less. The less interesting it is. And it can get to the point where it's like, oh, yeah, you know, the church does baptisms, they do missionary work, and occasionally they excommunicate dissidents. And that's just boundary maintenance. And, yeah, it's become kind of a non story, like a non event. Have you thought about that?

Kristy Money [00:49:43] I have a lot. And I'm definitely not doing it for the press because I've seen the trend too. It's becoming old news, sort of discipline. So it's not for the press. It's for. It's just a matter of conscience and that I simply cannot be silent when people are suffering and when my daughter's future, you know, has a possibility to be different. Different. And 5 million women have the possibility of a different, more equitable future. And so I'm gonna fight for that. It's. It's just. It's morality. It's. Yeah, I. It might. It might happen quietly, but, you know, I just. I have to do what I have to do.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] So for you, it's just. It's purely a matter of conscience.

Kristy Money [00:50:34] Yes. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try to do my part to make things better for my daughters and for Mormon women. So here I am. Let's see what happens.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] All right, well, that's. I consider you an inspiration, and I'm really grateful for your efforts and for your sacrifice. I. I admire your courage and your commitment, and I'm. I mourn your losses, but I. I celebrate you and Rolf, and I look to you guys as kind of heroes and examples in a way. So.

Kristy Money [00:51:15] Thanks, John.

Testimony, Beliefs, and What Comes Next

John Dehlin [00:51:17] All right, well, you know how we end Mormon stories? Well, well, first of all, tell us real. Let's see. Why don't you go ahead and. And end with kind of your statement of belief as it current stands, and then we'll just talk about your future. So why don't you. Why don't you bring us to that point where you share. What if you had. If you have a testimony or whatever is most prominent in your testimony, you know, share with us what that is.

Kristy Money [00:51:49] Okay, so my. My statement of belief. I believe that God loves all of his children equally and that it's our role as children of God to try to ease that suffering for one another. And I'm just. I'm never going to give up on that. And even though it's hard, but I still feel what I felt when I was 12 years old, that God loves us unconditionally and that we're okay as our authentic selves, even if leaders disagree with that and think that there's something wrong with these questions and thoughts or this unorthodoxy. So. So yeah, I. My. My feelings are. And beliefs are. Are of an unconditional, loving God and.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] And.

Kristy Money [00:53:02] And equality for everybody. So simple, but. But true to me.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] All right, so that's. That's your core. That's what it's about.

Kristy Money [00:53:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:53:19] Okay. All right, so what's next in your professional life?

Kristy Money [00:53:24] Well, I'm starting my private practice in about a month, as soon as I have that paper in hand, that license. So I'll start up the private practice in my home and then do online Skype coaching, because it can't be psychotherapy, but coaching similar to what other therapists do, you know, specializing in infertility counseling and women's mental health and faith transitions. So I'm very excited to actually be working again. It'll be nice because, yeah, I mean, I dive into activism, but I do miss working. So excited about that. And I'm hosting the Ordain women podcast, so that's fun, too.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Okay. And how do people get ahold of you if they want to seek your services?

Kristy Money [00:54:25] I'll be creating a website as soon as I have that license in hand. So, yeah, probably. Probably in the next month.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Okay. Do you know the URL yet or. Not yet?

Kristy Money [00:54:41] Not yet. But if you Google Christy money, I'm sure it'll come up.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] But Kristy, with the K R s K R I s T Y M O N E Y. Okay. And we'll add the link X post facto.

Kristy Money [00:54:55] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] Yeah. Along with your op EDS and anything else you want to link to.

Kristy Money [00:55:02] Great. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] All right, well, you and Rolf are awesome. It's an honor to know you, and it's an honor to kind of work with you shoulder to shoulder. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Kristy Money [00:55:30] Other sources cease to make me whole when with a wounded heart and anger or malice I draw myself apart searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.