Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 848

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Delind. It is December 19, 2017 and we are now conducting the second interview of the day. We just did a wonderful interview about the LDS Church's ecclesiastical policies in terms of how bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents are interviewing their youth and children about matters of sexuality. Check that out if you haven't that series but now it's time to interview someone who has made quite a stir over the past year or two within the Mormon intellectual community. His name is Jackson Washburn. Jackson is a 19 year old faithful Mormon who has yet to serve a mission for the Church. He attends Arizona State University and I just have to say that I'm both excited for this interview and a tiny bit disappointed in some of my listeners. As many of you know, Mormon Stories is committed to interviewing people all along the faith spectrum, and we interview people who are critical of the Church and who attack the Church and who don't believe in the Church anymore. And we've also had a history, long history of interviewing people who are faithful to the Church. And for one of the first times in the history of Mormon Stories, I've had several people reach out to me and tell me that I shouldn't interview Jackson Washburn. In addition to that, as many of you know, I've been doing an ongoing series over the past month or two on this notion of neo apologetics. So the Church has this long history of apologetics where they have people defending the Church, and we've had people like Daniel Peterson and others on people from FAIR to talk about defending the Church. But what we've seen in the past several years with Terrell Givens and Fiona Givens, with Richard Bushman, with Patrick Mason, with several other prominent believers in Mormonism academics, we've seen a different approach to apologetics, which is a more pastoral approach, one that's willing to validate and acknowledge the difficulties within Mormonism, one that relies less on ad hominem attacks, and frankly, one that relies less on the need for science to be used to defend what some feel is indefensible. Anyway, this interview with Jackson very much aligns with the series that I've been doing on Mormon neo apologetics. We'll be talking about how Jackson even feels about that term and how he looks on classic versus modern apologetics. So that's important. But another reason why Jackson's interview is super important is because over the past 1012 years, as Mormon Stories Podcast, as the CES Letter, as MormonThink, as various intellectual movements, Sunstone and Dialogue Mormon History association have been influencing the LDS Church, resulting in things like changes in the LDS Church's curriculum, also the gospel topic essays with the Mormon Church as they've been released. Jackson has been able to be an observer to those changes, as an active participant, as both the youth and as a young adult. Jackson's history is fascinating and deserves his story to be told just because of the fact that, you know, within his lifetime, and his mother was a listener to Mormon stories for that and other reasons, stopped believing in Mormonism. Later, his parents divorced, so his dad remained faithful in the church, his mother left the church. And so this threw Jackson into these issues of faith and of doubt as a very young kid. And so what we get to do when we interview Jackson is understand what what's it like to have one parent leave the church and stop believing another parent stay, to be caught in the middle of an interfaith family. He was able to sort of witness the impact of Mormon stories, of changes in church curriculum, real time as a youth, and then watch the church respond to it. Why in the crud would we not want to interview Jackson Washburn and understand what those experiences were like, how it affected his family, how he witnessed the church make change, and then how what I see as a remarkably bright and sophisticated 19 year old see how he's grappled with these issues. Now, of course, there's many listeners who rightly say things like, well, Jackson, you're too young to be talking about these things. You're too wet behind the ears, you're too inexperienced sometimes, you're too brash, sometimes you're not validating enough. Fine, like, you know, those are all as valid criticisms. But I think people should also realize that Jackson's freaking 19 years old and you've made mistakes. We've all made mistakes. Jackson is probably willing to own up to his mistakes, but why in the crap would we say that we shouldn't even allow him to tell his story? That's deeply offensive to me as the host of Mormon Stories Podcast. And that's why I'm so incredibly thrilled to welcome Jackson Washburn to Mormon Stories Podcast. So that's my rant as an opening. As an opening rant to this interview. Before we introduce Jackson officially, I just want to thank everyone for tuning in. Please, there's so much you can do to help support this effort. Please like the Mormon Stories podcast page. Please give us positive reviews on the Mormon Stories podcast page. Please give us positive reviews on itunes. That makes a huge difference. And then, most importantly, for those who are in a financial position to do so, please, please financially contribute to the Open Stories foundation of Mormon Stories and all our podcasts. These donations are tax deductible. They go to support so many different efforts that are worthy and important. We're transparent in our finances, and we depend on your support. And I just want to say part of our mission is to have open, candid, constructive dialogue within Mormonism. And if you support that effort, please, please support us. Finally, the last announcements I'll make is that we finally announced the Mormon Stories event calendar for 2018. We've got St. George retreat in February, a Phoenix workshop in March, Salt Lake retreat in June, a Houston retreat in July, Idaho Falls workshop in August, and then our Bahamas cruise in October. Please go to mormonstories.org events to learn about these events that help save families. They help support people in their mental health and their faith transition, in improving their spirituality, in raising healthy children and communicating with believing family and friends. These events have been instrumental for people healing and growing as either active, faithful Mormons or as post Mormons. So please learn about our events, let people know about our events, and support both our events and the foundation as a whole. So, without any further ado, Jackson Washburn, welcome to Mormon Stories. Thank you for being willing to come on as you prepare for your mission, I might add. And let me just give you a chance to respond to my prologue, my monologue, and to all the interest and controversy that surrounded just me considering interviewing you for the podcast.

Jaxon Washburn [00:08:19] Well, I say you're far too kind, John, but also I want to say thank you for letting me come in and join today. I really do appreciate it. I am always a fan of forms of open dialogue, and that's something I very much stand behind. And so, you know, regardless of different hosts or different guests that have been on Mormon Stories in the past or, you know, the variety of viewpoints that have been discussed on your platform, I do enjoy and support platforms such as yours which encourage dialogue like that. So, you know, thanks for having me As a guest, I do appreciate it. As far as some of the controversy goes, it's been really interesting to kind of witness myself. You're correct in that, you know, at times people do write me off for being too young, which, you know, I agree. Like, you know, I'm not trying to hide my age. I am 19. And so that does come with a lack of life experience. At the same time, what I have experienced in my life is fairly unique, I would say, and kind of unorthodox. You know, it's a different path than a lot of people might have gone on. And so that's led to me turning into somewhat of a different individual in terms of how I view things and how I interact with others. So I'm grateful for the journey that I've been on. I wouldn't trade it for anything else. But like you said, I'll own up to my mistakes as well. And I recognize that it's a developmental process for me. And so, you know, I'm always striving to improve and things like that. I recognize my age, I recognize my limitations. And yeah, I guess I just kind of want to share my story with you today, if that's all right, and we can get talking about some issues that have definitely impacted my life. And like you said, I've been able to witness firsthand. So, you know, thanks for that.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] My pleasure. So let's jump on it. So Jackson, tell us about your youth and childhood as a Mormon and what led to your mom questioning her faith and ultimately leaving the church.

Jaxon's Mormon Heritage and Family Background

Jaxon Washburn [00:10:43] Yeah, so I come from, you know, your standard stereotypical line of stock Mormon heritage. Right. I'm like a seventh generation Mormon. My first ancestor that became a member of the faith was Abraham Washburn, and he had a son, Parley Pratt Washburn, a whole line of Washburn, you know, down to the present. I was born in Sandy, Utah and moved to Arizona when I was one. So I consider myself ethnically Mormon, if that's such a thing.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:11:17] Just because I've been so enmeshed in the culture and the community and the lifestyle. But yeah, so I've been raised in pretty Gilbert, Arizona for my whole life, pretty much. And your standard Mormon family starting off. And right now I am attending Arizona State University. I'm majoring in religious studies there. So I just completed my first semester, gonna do another semester before my mission. But as far as like my parents background both goes, they both come from Mormon families. They both, my mom and my dad both have rather large stereotypical Mormon families. Right. They have Seven. There's seven siblings in each family, so I have a whole slew of cousins and uncles and aunts and, you know, just a large Mormon family on both sides. So I very much fit the bill by those means. So, you know, I was raised pretty much the same as most other people were in the church. Active parent. Active parents who, you know, took us to church every Sunday. I was raised in the faith in a pretty standard way, and it wasn't until kind of my early teenage years that that started changing quite a bit. And like you said, it was due to my mom's decision to leave the church. And so now that I'm older, right, And I've been able to kind of go back and hear more of her story and understand it better. I understand that it was a longer process than it felt originally. In the moment, for me, back then, it did kind of feel surprising, just because, you know, being younger, I wasn't into hearing about all the details of my mom's own faith journey, you know, much less comprehending the complexity of it. But it was around 2009 or so when my mom started visiting some different churches just to check them out and see kind of what she felt about them. And, you know, before I continue to tell her story. Right. I do want to say that it is her story. I can't really do it full justice, you know, and so I'll try and be just kind of brief with it, just that way. I don't misquote her or anything like that because I'd much rather allow her to speak for herself and her own experience, you know, but it was around 2009, she tried out some different churches. And from what she's told me, you know, she. She had a very standard Mormon upbringing. She was raised in Utah. My dad was raised in Washington State. And so my mom was, you know, grew up smack dab in Mormon land and had active family members. It was all just really standard. Right. There was always a few things that sometimes kind of caught her attention, you know, or maybe bugged her a little bit. One thing that she's told me that she always had some uncomfortable feelings towards was polygamy. Right. And I think that's. That's pretty common for most people to, especially women to have uncomfortable feelings towards that. So, you know, that was always in the back of her mind. And in between 2009 and 2012. 2012 was when she stopped going altogether. But, you know, in between those three years or so, she was really just sticking it out for the family, to my understanding. You know, she didn't have a temple recommend at the time because she didn't feel like she could authentically and honestly answer the questions as part of the interview. But she did participate in the church, and we did continue going as a family during that time. And she was really just sticking it out then. 2012 was when she stopped going altogether. And from what she's told me, it was that same year that she started listening to Mormon stories and reading some more, maybe critical literature on the church. And so I do want to say, as far as Mormon stories goes, when I was younger, I used to. Not when I was younger, and I didn't have as much understanding about my mom's faith journey. Right. I was very much caught up in kind of a standard dogmatic mindset of, what the heck, you know, why she. Why is she leaving the church. It's very easy to get caught up in some rhetoric that. Where you might feel inclined to assume someone is, I don't know, sinning or, you know, things like that. All I knew is that she was leaving the church. She had difficulties with it, and it was kind of leading to some complications in our family. But, yeah, that was when she started listening to Mormon stories. And so looking back at that now and hearing how she's expressed, how Mormon stories very much gave her a sense of community and validation and the things that she was feeling, you know, I just want to say I appreciate that because, you know, I understand now both having gone through a crisis of faith myself and especially being a family member to not just my mom, but other individuals who have left the church and who have wrestled with things and honestly grappled with them. And, you know, it's been a very difficult experience. I do appreciate the sense of validation that Mormon stories afforded her during that difficult time because it is easy. And I can understand how someone could feel very alone in that sense, because in a lot of ways, sometimes I've felt alone in the different wards that I'm in because maybe I have different viewpoints or different experiences, you know, that caused me to see things a little bit differently. So I do appreciate that, John. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Jackson.

Jaxon Washburn [00:17:36] Yeah.

Mom's Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Let me ask you, as your mom was doubting and then investigating other churches and then, you know, deciding to leave the church and listening to Mormon stories after that, you were you at all privy to her doubts, any conflict or tension between your parents during that sort of 2012 time period, or were you sort of sheltered from that?

Jaxon Washburn [00:18:00] No, I kind of half and half, I would say. I mean, I was at an Age, I would have been around 14 then. And really around maybe age 12 was when there was a time in kind of around age 12 where my mom took me to one of these different churches. It was a non denominational Christian church. And so that was the first time I had ever been to a church other than the LDS church. And so that was a very interesting experience. But she didn't continue to. It was several years from that initial experience with her to where she eventually stopped going altogether and then started going to these other churches. So I was privy to it. I wasn't privy to the details, right, because they were very much adult conversations that took place between my mom and my dad. But I understood that there was a dynamic that was changing with our family. I didn't fully understand it. But how did that feel to you

John Dehlin [00:19:03] as a kid to see that dynamic changing?

Jaxon Washburn [00:19:06] Well, do you remember? Yeah, no, I remember very clearly. One morning in particular, I remember waking up and the house was different. And by that I mean we used to have a bookshelf that had a lot of LDS books on it, right. And we would have LDS artwork hanging up in the house. And there was one day in particular, it was very distinct in my memory where a lot of those things were gone and they'd been removed from by my mom, you know, I assume. And for me at least that was just seeing that, that was kind of like the indicator that, you know, that was the crossing the threshold type moment for me where I was like, oh, wow, things really are different now. And so moving past that experience forward, there is. My parents made it work, like we became an interfaith family. My mom would be an evangelical or a non denominational Christian for many years following that. But at the same time, you know, just like my parents, they stayed together in their marriage. But that doesn't mean that things were fine either. Religion was a point of contention. There is moments where we made it work and it was great. Us kids, we would switch off churches every single week kind of from that point forward for several years. But at the same time it was sensitive. And it was something that my mom, because the experience was so fresh with her, it was something that, you know, might have been difficult for her to talk about just because leaving and things like that is a very difficult process. And so it was all just, you know, she was living it. Right now I'm able to have very frank and open conversations with her where we both feel very comfortable. But I do remember then, you know, conversations like that were not so frequent and religion became more of kind of a subject that we don't talk about. If we can, I'll share a quick story that kind of highlights this, this process. Right. So my mom, my mom's non denominational Christian and she very much values the Bible, still, you know, believes in Jesus, believes in God. Right. Would identify as a Christian and still carries a lot of the same values that she did when she was Mormon. And so as part of our family dynamic, right. We all value scripture study as a family. And so we tried to continue that. We would try to continue nightly scripture study or I think it was family home evening one time. Actually we still try to continue that process and we tried it once and we're reading scriptures, we're reading from the Bible. Right? Because I think that was a compromise that my parents had agreed on that, you know, they as part of respecting each other's boundaries, they would just kind of unite on the common ground. So both faiths use the Bible, let's just read the Bible as a family. So we do that. And during the discussion I remember this happening. My dad, we're talking about prophets or something like that. And my dad, in comparing one biblical prophet to another, brings up the example of the prophet Nephi from the Book of Mormon and talks about, you know, something like, you know, about how he's able to obey the commandments or something like that. Right. Anyways, you know, just, just mentioning the Book of Mormon, that created a point of contention between my two parents. And that was the last time that we ever did family scripture study like that. And anytime after that, the deal was with my parents that if my dad wanted to have scripture study with us that was Mormon focused, he would have to do it alone. My mom, you know, wanted to have scripture study with us, she would do it with us alone. But as far as both parents coming together on that, it didn't seem like that worked. They never were able to kind of make that work. So religion became very privatized in our home. Rather than like a family engagement, it was either with one parent or the other parent or just by ourselves. And so I remember that feeling as a lot of pressure because it was something I felt like I couldn't talk about all the time or if I did it had to be alone with one parent or another parent. So there was tension.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] And I'm wondering you personally. So here's some possible emotions, sadness, fear, anger, confusion. I don't want to plant, you know, your memory in that sense, but those are some of the. I just want to hear about how it Was emotionally for you, confusion. What were the emotions you were feeling as a kid going through this, this, you know, this disparity and confusion in your family.

Growing Up Between Two Churches

Jaxon Washburn [00:24:16] So as I'm being raised kind of in an interfaith setting, like I said, my siblings that I. We would switch off churches every single week. So we would go to mom's church one week, dad's church another week. For me, because I was older and I kind of already was enjoying religion, or, you know, I would say even more than just enjoying religion, I. I very much wanted to come to grips with all this. Right. Because 12 years old, 13, 14, a little, you know, around that time, that's really when individuals are able to start thinking for themselves and asking these bigger questions and look beyond themselves and start being more independent. And so, yeah, I was caught between two different worldviews, and I desperately wanted a sense of foundation and clarity as to which one I was going to end up being. Right. Because you have two different parents who believe different things, and I was raised in one thing. And, yeah, so confusion was a big part of it, and to the point that it was just very difficult and it was a point of major stress and anxiety for me. And I'll tell a few stories to kind of illustrate this. Freshman year, this is a little bit later in the process, but still my faith crisis, you know, this whole process I kind of refer to as my faith crisis because everything I thought I understood about the world, kind of the black and white, being raised Mormon, it was the introduction of my mom's new Christian worldview and her departure from the LDS Church that really just exposed me to a lot of different perspectives and really brought this issue of what path am I going to take front and center to me. And even though my parents tried to go out of their way to make the process less difficult for us siblings, because of the age that I was at, I couldn't help but feel this way. Right. And so switch off both churches every single week. I was just as active in both. I would even double up. I would go to both churches every Sunday. That was a choice that I made a lot, was to go to both. I would go to mutual on Wednesdays, I would go to Christian Bible study. On Tuesdays or Thursdays, I would go to summer camps for both churches. Right. I had double activity in both churches. I was a baptized member in the LDS Church. I had the Aaronic priesthood. So I was doing all my priesthood duties and things like that. But, yeah, I was just really, I was intimately involved with both worlds. And Engaged with both communities. And to make things even more confusing and difficult for me, my mom's church was the kind of evangelical church that probably once a quarter or once a semester or so, they would have Mormon Sunday where they would talk about Mormonism, right? And talking about why Mormonism is wrong and why, you know, their church is right. And so would they call it a cult?

John Dehlin [00:27:30] Would they call it a cult?

Jaxon Washburn [00:27:33] They were usually a little bit more diplomatic than that. You could definitely go on their bookstore and find books on Mormonism that would call it a cult, Right? And I would always make an effort to go talk to these pastors and these youth leaders. They knew my situation. I was just a youth, just full of questions, right. I was just always asking him questions. I would do the same thing at Mormon church too, because I just desperately wanted some sense of foundation and kind of assurance, right? So I'm asking a lot of questions. And it's usually in those conversations that they would be a little bit more brunt. But as far as the sermons go, you know, saying that Mormons don't believe in the real Jesus, that they're not real Christians, that it's a false gospel, things like that, they were very kind. And looking back, I have no problem with sermons like that now. I'm very comfortable with that now. You know, I feel that churches have a full right to do that, but in the moment.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] So speaking their truth, right?

Jaxon Washburn [00:28:42] Yeah, yeah, completely right. But at the moment, as a 12, 13, 14 year old, that was something that I hadn't encountered before, and I just didn't know how to process it. So I took it personally because I felt like it was just writing off legitimate experience from faithful Mormons that I knew. I felt like it was just slanderous. And so I very much hyped it up in my own mind. But it was difficult for me and it only added to the pressure. The LDS Church never had any sermons on other churches, but at the same time claimed, you know, had exclusive truth claims, you know, as the one true church. So, you know, I get caught up in these absolutes, and that put a lot of pressure on me. So here's a story. Freshman year, a school I was going to, it was a very diverse school. It was. It was a public school called Arizona College Prep. I was one of four Mormons in my grade, okay. I had just switched from another school where it was probably 97% Mormon. Like, they let us out of school that day to watch the angel Moroni get put on top of the Gilbert Temple, you know, like, it's so Mormon. Everyone's Mormon, right? And so I go from this bubble of junior high to now in high school where I'm one of four Mormons in my grade. There's Muslims, there's Hindus, there's Jews, there's, you know, it's a very diverse school, lots of international students. And so that was a whole different experience for me. But yeah, during this time, I'm just so confused about religion. I'm just desperately yearning for some sense of foundation that one day I decided to skip track practice and talk to a teacher of mine who I felt was very wise on the matter of religion and who I felt like I could have personal conversations with. So we're talking about religion, I'm kind of explaining my struggles, things I'm wrestling with, and we just have a several hour conversation after school, right. So the track coach wasn't too happy that I skipped track practice. And so I wasn't able to run in the final meet of the year because I ditched practice to go talk about religion. And so I remember getting in a lot of trouble with my parents that night because obviously skipping practice isn't a good idea and it brought negative repercussions on myself. But I just remember feeling like I didn't even care at that point. Like, I like track and I wanted to run and everything like that. But in terms of weighing whether or not I should run in the final meet or I should have a two hour conversation on religion, I valued the conversation more than, you know, the final track meet of the year. Like, I was totally fine not being able to run. And even though I was getting in trouble with my parents, like, it was still worth it because just the possibility of getting some type of answer or input from someone I trusted that gave me a paradigm that I needed or just an insight that would help me and kind of provide me with some comfort that was worth more to me. And so I remember just like in my mind seeing. Seeing this process as like a matter of eternal consequence, right. Like, I had projected it just so high up where it was just tearing me apart because not only do I have two polarizing worldviews that I'm engaged with, but at the same time, like, I'm recognizing that maybe they're both wrong, maybe there's something else out there, right? And so I'm just trying to, like, you know, reach out to anything I can grab a hold of. So that was very difficult for me.

John Dehlin [00:32:27] Yeah, that's a testament both to how much, how stressful and troubling this whole issue must have been for you and, you know, the fact that you're willing to sacrifice such an important milestone in your life.

Jaxon Washburn [00:32:43] I went to bed that night just bawling, Right. And there was many nights where I just felt just so consumed with this frustration, this just need for clarity, comfort. We'll talk about Fowler stages of faith a little bit, you know, eventually, but it was very much like a stage four deconstructing soul at age what, like 14, 15. Right.

Teenage Faith Journey and Personal Doubts

John Dehlin [00:33:08] You know, ironically, I have to think that Joseph Smith's own struggles and even first vision prayer were similar. He's worrying about his mom, he's worrying about his dad, he's worrying about the fate of his brother Alvin, who died. And he was in a mixed faith family. I'm sure there's some similarities there. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:33:27] So here's what's interesting about that. It was around 2012, like I said, when my mom started reading some more critical literature. And so it was also around that time that I started to read critical literature. And by this point, I've read far more than she has. You know, not to make a point of that or anything, but like, I wanted a sense of closure and solidarity and understanding with why my mom left the faith she was raised with. So I immediately went and I read a lot of the same literature that she did. I read the CES letter the year it came out or. So Was that like 2013 or 14, something like that? Yeah, yeah. You know, anyways, I was spending a lot of time online MormonThink. I wasn't really listening to Mormon stories, but I was, you know, engaged with a lot of other sources that people would write off as anti Mormon or critical. Right. And so I'm reading these books. I read Joseph. I read Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling. I got familiar with Michael Quinn. Right. So, you know, I'm learning about these things as a 13, 14 year old. And let's say, on the issue of polygamy or polyandry or things like that, the things I'm reading and I'm hearing about, let's say, Joseph Smith, I'm not too comfortable with that and I'm not liking the way it's sounding. And for the space of about probably a year or more, I just, I wasn't sure what I thought of the guy. And sometimes my feelings were bitter and just like, what the heck? Like, I don't know how I can reconcile this. Sometimes they were kind of more apathetic. But throughout that whole process, like you mentioned it, there's similarities. I would go back to his first vision accounts. And at that time I had read multiple first vision accounts. And I'm reading these and his words are just impacting me, especially the 1838 canonized version where he's talking about the struggle. And even though I didn't know what I thought of him yet, I wasn't comfortable with a lot of it. I always felt a sense of connection with Joseph. I felt like I was kind of living his experience because even his words, like not being able to go to the Bible to settle these questions. Right. I'm going to different Christian churches. They're all using the Bible, but they're disagreeing with each other. And just like Joseph, I'm like, well, geez, like if I can't even appeal to the Bible to make sense, this like, you know, I think he's right. I think the only way I can do it is by appealing to God. My experience was different than his because I was also reading a lot. So my journey has been both kind of academic or literature based, but then also spiritual based. Right. So it's. We cover both spectrums. And I never had any kind of theophany experience. You know, I haven't seen divinity or anything like that. But yeah, I always, I always felt this sense of connection with him. Even when I didn't, I wasn't too sure of what I thought of Joseph Smith. So I do remember that.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Yeah, that's powerful. And it is a testament to how, you know, most of us didn't even learn about things like rough stone rolling or, you know, polyandry or Book of Abraham or any of these issues until our 30s or 40s or 50s. It's really mind blowing to think that you're digging and diving into these sources at age 14, 15. It's just kind of powerful that we have your story on record, frankly.

Jaxon Washburn [00:37:10] Well, and also just look at how times have changed. I'm able to do that, you know, whereas in your time, John or other people's, that wasn't really a viable option because things like this were only accessible in the library or even then, who knows, right. You know, I'm able to just in three clicks get on a website that explains a lot of these issues or offers criticisms against the church. Right. It's a very different time that we live in.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] And we were warned. Don't go to anti Mormon sources. Fawn Brody was a lesbian and she was evil and, and in these ways, even though there were books, you didn't dare go to them. Right?

Jaxon Washburn [00:37:48] Yeah. So that's what was interesting actually, with my parents experience. My mom shared this with me today. I was trying to make sure that I get certain parts of the story right. But my dad, he was comfortable with me reading this stuff. He's a faithful, active member and during their marriage he, my mom and him were having a conversation, I guess, and the subject turned to kind of critical literature and my dad pretty much just gave her an open invitation to go start reading it. That was around 2012 or so, because she felt like before then she couldn't go read it because she'd always been warned not to. And so from my early upbringing and as part of the Mormonism, at least that I've lived, I've always felt like I can just go read whatever I want. I felt like I can, you know, kind of think critically, engage both sides. And so again, that is kind of a testament to how times are changing. But I also come from a unique family in that, in that, in that perspective, just because like, you know, I don't think that's a universal experience for everyone, even today. Right. So I do feel like in a lot of ways I've had more of a progressive upbringing maybe or an open upbringing, both as part of my experience, but then also due to the individuals that were in my life as well. I've had some pretty more progressive seminary or institute leaders, bishops, and you know, my family as well has been pretty accepting.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] Did you ever get a sense that, were you ever able to talk to your dad about these things? Was he aware? Did he try and help you stay as a faithful person? And then as you read more and more, were you able to talk to your mom about your doubts and your questions? And did you ever get the sense that she was trying to convince you to stop believing? And were you ever sort of that football in a tug of war of a believing in a non believing parent trying to pull you one way or the other?

Jaxon Washburn [00:39:53] So me and my dad's relationship during this time wasn't too close. He was at work a lot, right. And so naturally I had more exposure to my mom. And sometimes our conversation would have to do with matters of Mormonism, in which case she would kind of repeat things that she had learned during her readings or things that had been troubling her. Right. And sometimes I would just listen. Starting off, I would just listen, right. I would just kind of soak it all in because I didn't know what to make, you know, I couldn't really make much sense of it because I was still sifting through all of. Wasn't until a little bit later that, you know, maybe she would offer some type of criticism and I might push back a little bit due to something I had been reading, maybe repeat something from FARMS or Fair or something like that, you know, give an alternate viewpoint. But that that time period didn't really last too soon because it was that point and kind of moving onward that I was really starting to become more confident in my Mormonism, comfortable in the path that I had chosen, and that that changed the dynamic between me and my mom for a little bit. Because, you know, I don't know, I knew heading into the process that if I choose, you know, my mom's path or my dad's path or a different path, right. That had the potential to change some dynamics between me and my family members. And so it was something I had to deal with. Me and my mom are on great terms now. Right. But it's because I've had good conversations with her where I've let her know that I validate her experience. You know, I support her and her decision to be authentic and to leave the church. Right. I don't see her as some type of evil, sinning, apostate, you know, but rather as a courageous mom who I really do support, you know, and I'm grateful for her example in my life and kind of making this decision, even though I've chosen a different path, even the opposite path that she has. I'm really grateful for that because it's taught me to be authentic and to live true. And it's definitely changed my life. Her decision to not stick it out anymore and instead to move forward with the thing that she felt was right, that was very powerful to me. And it's definitely changed how I see things. So I'm really grateful for that.

Discovering FAIR Mormon and Early Apologetics

John Dehlin [00:42:22] So talk us through how you. Your process of working through all the different areas of doubt and talk about how and if the church's changes to curriculum with correlation with the essays, how those things may or may not have been part of your journey.

Jaxon Washburn [00:42:40] So I'll go back as far as my reading went. I read Fawn Brody, reading a lot of different things back then. I was reading lots of stuff from FARMS and from fair. It was actually really interesting because for the first year or so, I wasn't even aware that Mormon apologetic stuff existed, even though I was reading a lot of things on the Internet. I would type in, like, Joseph Smith, plural marriage, and I'd get all these critical sites. And so, of course, that's what I'm Reading first. And so I remember reading Richard Bushman's book Rough Stone Rolling and. And I had to put it down because the first couple chapters in, I was like, I thought the guy was critical of the church. Like, I thought that he was a critic. Right. In my perspective then, just because I was so entrenched in kind of the standard orthodoxy and the common narrative, the correlation narrative, I didn't know if I could trust what I was reading then. I love Richard Bushman now. You know, it's one of my favorite books. But then it was very much like, what the heck, Like Seer Stones, things like that. I didn't know what, what to think of it. So I. I'm just grappling with this for several years. I'm consuming massive amounts of literature. I stumble across fairmormon eventually and it was like a dream come true for me because at this time I was very much looking, like, looking back, I can say I was very much looking for things to confirm or support the faith that I was raised with. So at least I wouldn't feel like it was a total loss. And so now I have a whole kind of Wikipedia type website where I can just scroll through, see all these different critiques or issues that sometimes people have, and find an answer that for me at that point was satisfying. So I'm pretty sure I went through the whole FAIR website probably three times. And I'm just loving what I'm reading. It's directing me to site things from farms. It's all kind of scholarly. It's not just like a blog. And so for me, I'm looking at this and I'm seeing something that I feel like is more credible. But then also that young confirmation bias was in effect too. So I very much got caught up in that pretty quickly. And it wasn't until just a couple years ago that I've moved past that. I would say, or at least I've tried to. But early on, if there was any criticism, Fair Mormon had the answer. And whatever answer they gave, that's what my new perspective was. So I just started really just consuming this and kind of, you know, I wouldn't say I thought fairmormon was infallible, but they definitely had the answers that I wanted, or at least they just had answers. Right. And so that's. That's what I was adopting at this, at this point in my life.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] Yeah. So you acknowledged that one of the things you liked about FAIR was that it was confirming the beliefs you wanted to maintain.

Jaxon Washburn [00:45:48] Yeah. And then also it was it was just a good introductory complement to this critical side, you know, so reading something like, let's say the CES letter, where it might have a few pages on issues. Right. And it has quite a few issues listed, I could go then to fair and kind of get the contrasting viewpoint on the same issues. Right. And so for me, it was a nice beginning step. I consider that a beginning step now. But yeah, it did provide me a sense of comfort and clarity or at least the ability to kind of like see, like maybe this isn't all lost. Like maybe it is a two way conversation and maybe, you know, things aren't as hopeless as I thought. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Yeah. It gives you a reason to hold on sometimes. Right? Yeah. Okay. How did it proceed? I'm on the edge of my seat. On the edge of my seat.

Fowler Stages of Faith and Spiritual Development

Jaxon Washburn [00:46:41] Yeah. So I mentioned how I wanted to kind of get into Fowler stages of faith. So I would consider this. I've never considered myself fully in one stage or another. You know, they naturally kind of bleed into each other. So while I had gone through this crisis of faith and I was still going through this, where a lot of like my early beliefs were being challenged and I felt like maybe they weren't true after all. I was still in the mindset that loved what is. Let's see, what is it? Oh, what's called the synthetic conventional stage three. Very much still things are black and white. And this reflects kind of my desire to just get a quick answer from fair Mormon and accept that as like the final word or like what my position would then be. So, you know, I still saw things in terms of kind of absolutes and very black and white. And I just wasn't comfortable with nuanced thinking. It wasn't until I started talking to just a lot more people and I started getting involved with interfaith efforts and things like that, which I can elaborate on that. This kind of stage three mindset, this very black and white turned into a very gray mindset where I'm more willing to recognize paradox and complexity and messiness and things like that and just see that, you know, there's more than just two sides the story, two polar opposites. You know, there's a whole spectrum of perspectives in there as well. So I'm more open to that now.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] But do you remember how you became even aware of Fowler stages of faith?

Jaxon Washburn [00:48:31] Oh, well, that actually wasn't until about a year and a half ago. Okay. As part of my reading now I'm able, because I am aware of it. Right. I'M able to kind of lay out my faith journey and kind of identify what stages I was at different places. But back then, I wasn't aware of it. Actually. Finding Fowler stages of faith was very validating for me because it very much spoke to me and I felt like it got me right and I could see myself very clearly in it. So. Yeah, but that wasn't until kind of fairly recently.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Okay, all right, so after you found fair satisfying for a time, how did things advance?

Jaxon Washburn [00:49:11] Well, I continued to just digest fair. And I remember because I'm still going to different churches at this time, too, and I'm being completely active in my mom's church, but I am holding on to this belief in the Book of Mormon and these very kind of what you would consider classical apologetic arguments. Right. That's what that was my bread and butter. That's what I was using and relying on in order to give me comfort. So I'm still talking to pastors. I'm still going to youth groups and summer camps. There is this one summer camp in particular, it was at Point Loa Nazarene University. It was about a week long. And so I go there. I'm pretty much the only Mormon there, Right. Presumably, I'd be surprised if I. If I wasn't. And everyone at my mom's church, they had. They had kind of this funny, funny title for me. I don't know. But they're like, hey, it's Jackson, the friendly Mormon. Because I don't know, I'm friendly. And everyone knew I was Mormon and in this kind of interfaith situation. So that was kind of like the nickname I got pegged with, I guess. But because everyone knew that I was Mormon, or at least I had a Mormon dad and was going to both churches, they would ask me tons of questions. I would try and answer them, and I'm still grappling with it. At the same time, it was very difficult for me at the summer camp. I'm talking to the main pastor that's there, and, you know, we're just blatantly disagreeing with each other. I'm probably 14 at the time on matters of, like, Godhead versus Trinity, you know, whether or not the Bible is inerrant or whether or not the Book of Mormon is historical, things like that, we're just. We're just going back and forth like that. But, yeah, so that was continuing. I remember while I was there. Again, I'm just feeling this immense amount of pressure because even though I'm, like, using these arguments, that doesn't necessarily mean that I was comfortable with them too, because it really just felt like they were things to hold on to to prevent me from falling off the edge of a cliff, you know. And I had this experience while I was at the youth camp that, that did bring me kind of a sense of comfort. And it's still written in my quad set scriptures now where, and this is very much like a stage three type thought where I just had like this epiphany moment and I'm looking, I'm reading the Book of Mormon, I'm flipping through it and just because I'm seeing words on a page and what I see is complexity, I'm just thinking, how in the world could this be false? And it was very much, you know, kind of the common, I don't know what reminds me of it is Tad Callister's recent talk at General Conference where he's giving evidences or supports at why the Book of Mormon is true and you know, kind of very classical devotional ones. But at that moment that just gave me comfort, you know, like, how could Joseph Smith had possibly faked this? How is this whole thing fake? And so I was like, I guess it's not. And at that point I was suddenly more comfortable with it. That doesn't mean my faith journey ended. That just provided me comfort then. But so I continue to go through this process. And things didn't start changing, like I said, until I started getting involved with interfaith as I'm going to Arizona College Prep, that very diverse school that I had mentioned. I already had kind of an interest or love of going to different churches due to my upbringing. And because my school was very diverse, I naturally became friends with Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, you know, people from all over the place. Things are very diverse. It was the first time that I had met a Muslim before then I was, I was very freaked out by them because I have a pretty conservative family upbringing and you know, so I wasn't too sure of what I thought, but I was just amazed at like the diversity of experience and the richness and the sincerity of people who are different than me, who are believing their faith and practicing it and living it. And I'm seeing them as happy and it was just really interesting for me. So that year, it was 2014, that was when I started what we called the World Religion Tolerance Society. It was a high school interfaith youth group, an after school club where we would welcome people of all kinds of religious or non religious beliefs, students to come in after school, meet for about an hour. And I was the president and the founder, and we would bring in leaders from different faiths from around the local area to come in and present on their faiths and their beliefs. And so I did this at Arizona College Prep. I switched schools the next year and opened it at my next high school. I also established a chapter of it in Richmond, Virginia. But the whole point of it is to encourage interfaith dialogue, cooperation, and just open discussion, civil discussion between people of different worldviews and backgrounds. And so that was something I really enjoyed doing during high school. I really got involved with it. And it was funny. The first year I was doing it, I didn't know it was an actual thing. As far as interfaith goes. I didn't know there were interfaith organizations. I thought I was at the cutting head of a completely new idea that was radical, right? At least for a high school setting. It was. But it was in 2015 that I was able to make a proposal to the Parliament of the World's Religions in Salt Lake City, Utah, held in that October. I got accepted, and so I was able to be a speaker at the Parliament of the World's Religions. And that was what really just got the ball rolling and kind of helping me enter this world of interfaith advocacy and activism and get very involved with it. And just having all these different exposures to people of different faiths and this rich diversity that exists in the world very much colored my new and developing perspective on my own faith. Like, I'm going to the Parliament, and there's, you know, more than 50 different religions represented there, like 80 different nationalities. Right. Over 10,000 people. And that was just such an incredible event because I'm just able to see so much difference in the world and be exposed to so much that I'd never known in Gilbert, Arizona, which very much reflects kind of Utah culture because of how many Mormons there are. Right. I'm just throwing myself out of situations and environments that I'm comfortable with, and I'm just meeting with and talking to people who are different than me. And I just really started to love and enjoy it. And so that didn't influence my own faith journey in a very interesting way. We can elaborate on that.

Crisis of Faith and Engaging Critical Literature

John Dehlin [00:56:54] What was that talk about at the World Council?

Jaxon Washburn [00:56:58] Oh, at the Parliament, it was called promoting interreligious education and tolerance among youth today. So I was just talking about my experience starting an interfaith group in a high school setting, which usually interfaith groups are more of a college thing or an Adult thing, you generally don't find them in high schools. And so I really was just one of the first individuals to start that as a extracurricular student group. And so I just kind of did a. It was a 45 minute seminar. So I'm up in front of a whole audience of people and I'm just talking about both my upbringing, but then also the lack of interfaith engagement in high school settings. Because usually religion in a high school environment is taken as kind of like a hot topic word. Because of the whole separation of church and state deal, schools are very hesitant to include religion or religious instruction or education as part of their curriculum or really emphasize individual student spirituality and religious diversity. And so that's something that I feel is very compatible in high school settings. And with the model that I was able to create, that's essentially what I was giving a pitch for, was, here's how you make it work. Here's my experience, and here's the potential. And so that was what my talk was on, was on starting these groups. And it was through this talk that I was then able to get flown out to Richmond, Virginia the following year and speak at an interfaith event there and start going around to different places of worship and youth groups in Richmond, Virginia, and pitching the idea for anyone to start a religion club there as well. And so eventually that did take root and there was a separate chapter of my club that was started in Richmond. And yeah, so it was just a really neat experience. And the interfaith was. Was just a very big part of my life growing up.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] That's so great. Okay. Yeah, I know that's a lot of people who are friends of yours really wanted to make sure you mentioned that and that that seems like such a cool thing to do at such a young age. And it was clearly born out of your. Your own experiences in your interfaith family and realizing that interfaith dialogue is so important. So that's fantastic. So did your, you know, talk about at any point you losing your faith or really grappling beyond? Sort of the, you know, the fair sight made me feel better and so I'm good. Did you have sort of those deep questions that led to a crisis of faith where you were seriously doubting the church's truthfulness?

Jaxon Washburn [00:59:53] Well, it was at initial time that I was reading a lot of critical literature. Like I said, I would consider this whole process kind of a crisis of faith, because I think I saw my effort in reading and just amassing an understanding of these issues as just a Whole process leading to a conclusion that I wasn't sure where it would end up. So I was very open ended. I was open to the possibility that, you know, I could end up as kind of an evangelical Christian, as a Mormon or, you know, something different altogether. So that was something that I was very actively trying to figure out. And so at the moment I didn't know where that would end and I was open to kind of both sides. So there was no, there's no particular moment that I can remember where I was like, I don't know if I can, if I should be. Like, there was no moment where I necessarily was done believing in the church because I can't really say that I was believing at the moment. You know, like I was just kind of in an in between where I didn't, I wouldn't say that I had a testimony, but I also wasn't necessarily, you know, like both options. Just I wasn't there yet. You know, I wasn't confident saying I was either fully in or out just yet. So yeah, I can't say there was a singular moment where for either, you know, one or the other I was pretty confident in.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] And yet the sense that I get is that, you know, you had those initial questions, fair was able to resolve them, but you've taken your study on all of these different issues to a much deeper level to where you understand the core issues with the church's truth claims and with the church's problems at a level as deep as most post Mormons and liberal and progressive Mormons. Right?

Jaxon Washburn [01:01:56] Yeah. And so like I said, that's been more of a developmental process. And I can't say, well, okay, so it was around age 16 or so when I guess I was really becoming more comfortable with identifying as a Mormon. And like, meaning that just because through my studies and through kind of my own exploration into my spirituality, that was just making the most sense to me, if that makes sense. So I like, I look at myself now and I see myself as having had different experiences that are both rational and spiritual that have led me to this point. And so I'm confident and comfortable with the point that I'm at right now, but I'm still open ended to what the future might hold. So like, I don't consider my journey done. Like I still consider myself on a journey, but I'm just moving forward what makes the most sense to me right now. But I'm also open to the idea that maybe down the road things could change, you know, and so I'm not closed off to that possibility. I'm just trying to be authentic and kind of lead where both I feel. Well, I guess I'm just going where I feel most comfortable with, both rationally and spiritually. So, you know, the day that something changes, you know, and something better comes along, hey, you know, I am pretty dead set on just moving forward with whatever makes the most sense to me. So that's what I'm doing with Mormonism, if that makes sense.

Transition to Neo-Apologetics and Defining the Term

John Dehlin [01:03:32] Okay, so it sounds like you feel like you've told the main parts of your early story. We have a lot to talk about in terms of the neo apologetics and apologetics and other types of topics around your particular engagement in Mormon Stories podcast group and in other communities. So I want to get to those. But is there anything else about your story you want to tell before I just ask you about the basic truth claims to the church and how you've reconciled some of the more difficult issues?

Jaxon Washburn [01:04:10] Yeah. If I might be able to elaborate on just, I guess, one more story, I guess it was. It was earlier in junior high. This is what kind of just made me comfortable with the idea, like. Well, I guess not. Not just comfortable, but really just dead set on striving for this, right? On thinking critically and being independent and authentic. It was both my mom's experience that I was witnessing, but then also this. This particular experience. It was in junior high, and kind of at the very beginning of this whole process, I had this teacher who we would get in religious conversations with, not the same one that I talked to with the track incident, but we're talking about Plato's Republic. And I had attempted to read Plato's Republic at kind of a young age. Made no sense to me whatsoever. But book seven, the Allegory of the Cave, I got that. And so I was having a conversation with this. With this teacher. And I just remember I wrote it down because the quote is just, like, so burned into my memory, like, we're relating my experience to, like, Plato's Cave. And he says to me, like, you can remain content in the dark among the truth shadows, or you can spend your life in search of the sun and all its brilliance. So I just remember walking away from that experience, really just profoundly impacted by this idea of I've grown up in a cave, quote, unquote. Right. We all have. We're all born into these experiences and raised with things early on. But now is the time when I can start going forward, and now is the time for me to leave the cave and really check all this out and So I guess that's something that really impacted me to want to even dive into all these issues to begin with. Besides just what I was experiencing in my family life, that gave me comfort and confidence in independent study. And it was really all this was independent study. You asked whether or not my dad was. Or my mom and my dad were really involved with this. My dad, he's a faithful and active member. And, you know, he says he's done some personal research himself, but we're different in the sense that this is very much a major point of focus for me and kind of always has been since an early age. And so as far as, like, literature and things like that, I've read a lot more than him, but I never really had a lot of conversations with him about church topics or about controversial criticisms or things like that, both, because I didn't have the closest relationship to him back then. But then also, you know, I don't think he was as engaged with this stuff as I was. You know, I'm sure he wasn't. And so the majority of this experience was just very personal. It was very independent. It was just Jackson reading in his room to the late hours, the night, different books. And I would print off articles from, let's say, Mormonthink or Fair Mormon or stuff like that. And I just go through all of them. And yeah, so that was just several years of me. For me, just reading all this by myself, it felt very individual. And, you know, I would reach out to pastors, I would reach out to church leaders and teachers and whatnot. But for the most part, I felt alone during this process because at least at church, I didn't feel like my church leaders, like at the Mormon Church were getting it because a lot of, you know, they just hadn't experienced the same thing that I had. And it just wasn't as front and center for them. Most of them weren't aware of the issues. And so there was very few people that I could talk about Mormon problems with. I don't think there was really anyone that I could. I mean, I would try with the pastors and things like that, but they always seem to give point of view that was very biased, in my opinion, or was very, you know, it was very Kingdom of the Cults or like, God Makers type level. And so I kind of saw through that pretty early on. And so, yeah, I just didn't find that appealing. So it was pretty. It felt just pretty independent and pretty alone for me during this time.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] Did you try and talk to your bishop or young Men's leaders or anything like that.

Jaxon Washburn [01:08:41] Young men's leaders, yes. There are certain points. Well, there's. Okay, here's one. Here's one experience. This. Actually, it was kind of later in 2012, I want to say. I asked about polygamy in Sunday school, and I'd been reading all this literature, and polygamy was just bugging the crap out of me, right? Because it just made no sense to me. And reading like, Doctrine and covenants section 132, and just randomly, like, I. There was moments where I would get confrontational in Sunday school with my teachers, just like I would with the pastors at these different Christian churches, right? Because I would just. I would just throw questions and just want some type of answer. So I did it about polygamy and got. You know, it sparked a classroom conversation. And my teacher at that time expressed his view that polygamy was an eternal principle and that it would be practiced again one day at Sunday school. And I recognize now that that's by no means an orthodox position, you know, that not everyone agrees with that. But at the time, I was just, wow, okay. I kind of took his word on it. I went home, I talked to my mom about it. And my mom has said that really, that was like the final straw. The most final, final straws was hearing that where she was like, okay, like, I'm totally done if that's being taught in Sunday school. Like, that's. That's all I need. There's a lot of other experiences she had before that, but that was like the final one where she was like, wow, okay. Yeah, that just confirmed everything that I've been thinking. So, yeah, I did try and go to different church leaders about it. Didn't really talk to bishops too much about this process. Every now and then, they would ask about my family situation, and I would just explain that, you know, I go to both churches and I'm just trying to figure stuff out. And so they were supportive of that. It's actually interesting, in my Christian experience and my Mormon experience, I will say that the Mormons were always more supportive of me going to these different churches. They were more supportive of me going to both churches with both parents. They were more supportive of me reading about all this stuff. Even when it comes to critical literature, I got more support from a lot of church leaders, even though there was a lot of still standard views about how it's deceptive and it's all wrong. You know, it's slanderous. Right. I just generally felt more support from the Mormon community in both my interfaith efforts and in trying to figure all this out and going to both churches than I ever did from the evangelical community, they were always more suspicious than non denominational Christians were of what was being taught at the Mormon Church and always more openly criticizing of the LDS Church. And so I think that did play a part with me because these kind of contrasting responses in terms of or towards independent research and study, I did feel more support from the Mormon community. And so I think that did make me in some ways feel like it was more accepted by then, even though I know that's not everyone's experience. You know, I feel like I can say authentically, like that was my experience.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] Okay, and you talked. You talked, as we discussed earlier before the interview, that you were able to see and witness the church incorporate through correlation changes to the curriculum, the essays, etc. How did you experience that as a, as a teen struggling with these issues?

Jaxon Washburn [01:12:29] Well, so, you know, I would always feel like I had this understanding or awareness that other people didn't, especially kids my own age, right. Where sometimes I would get asked like, you know, Jackson, you say you're reading like, you know about some problems with the church. What kind of problems are you talking about, man? Like, what problems are there? I'm talking to like my friends at church are like asking me to kind of throw them down the rabbit hole, right? And so that put me in some really kind of sensitive situations or ones that I wasn't too comfortable with because I knew just how difficult it was for me and I really didn't want to burden someone else with that. And so I was always pretty careful in the ways that I would frame these conversations because I was always just afraid that I would spark a faith crisis that would be as difficult and trying as my own was. It was painful. I didn't want someone to experience that same pain. And I know a lot of people who go through faith crises kind of want to be delicate or sensitive to where other people are at, you know, and not just kind of throw it all at them. So that was always a challenge. It was always a challenge when I felt like I knew more than my seminary teachers did, or my young men leaders did, or my bishop did, or things like that. You know, like when it comes to historical matters and matters of history are being taught in church or at seminary and they're being taught in a way that I know doesn't really line up too well with actual history or, you know, what my views were. That was always difficult because I Just felt very alone again. I felt like no one could relate to me, not even the teachers. And I feel like even if I approach them with questions, a lot of time my experience had made me, in terms of understanding a lot of these criticisms and the complexities of history, just so much farther than their understanding. I don't say that to puff myself up at all, but like, you know, just my exposure to these different problems was just a lot more than a lot of these other guys. So I never. Well, yeah, I didn't always feel too comfortable asking questions because, because of that, that reason. The few times that I did, you know, I would get answers that I felt were just kind of bogus or not really satisfying at all. So it was, it was a rare day when I felt like I could actually talk to someone and they could understand where I was coming out with these problems. So, yes, I did witness the introduction of like, let's say the gospel topic, Essays in Seminary. I think one of my favorite days was in my seminary class. We spent an entire class period talking about Heavenly Mother. And the whole lesson was on Heavenly Mother. And we have a PowerPoint presentation on Heavenly Mother. And I'm looking around the room and I'm looking at these different young girls and like, their eyes are lighting up because suddenly we're talking about female divinity in an open setting where questions are very much invited and everyone felt like they could talk freely. Like this was the first time they were having a full length lesson on their own divine potential, you know, as daughters of God. So I loved seeing that. I loved witnessing the change in the curriculum where now, like, I saw this firsthand where when discussing the Book of Mormon translation, now we're talking about seer stones. We're showing seer stones on the screen. You know, we're pulling from different scholarly material on the subject. And again, like, I don't think my experience was universal at all. Like, I feel like I got lucky maybe in some of my classes where I had more progressive teachers. And I don't know how much they were pushed from an ecclesiastic, ecclesiastical, or kind of like an occupational perspective. Like, I don't know what kind of the line of command was pushing for, but I did witness in Sunday school and seminary this transition to where now we are talking about some more historical things. And now like at Sunday school, we're having vulnerable conversations on like, let's say, matters of sexuality or things like that. Like, I had some great youth leaders who really took it upon themselves to make us feel comfortable as a Young men's quorum. Not necessarily openly discussing the details of what we were struggling with. Right. But just understand that, like most of us in there, we're struggling with pornography issues or, you know, we're fooling around with girls or, you know, whatever. Right. Like, just a lot of, like, normal high school experiences. It really changed a lot of the individuals in these groups because suddenly we didn't feel so alone. Each of us had something we were dealing with, and now we felt like we could at least be a little bit more open with it. So I also witnessed a transition into vulnerability, having more vulnerable and open conversations in Sunday school. And so that was very appreciated as well. But I don't know. I don't know how systematic this whole process has been across the church. You know, I assure you this isn't a monolithic experience. Like, there's still a lot of progress to make, but I certainly saw more progressive, more informed and maybe accurate portrayals of history and complexity behind doctrine being presented than maybe the correlation era offered. And so I would like to think at least, you know, between the correlation era and maybe the age of information that we're in now. I don't. I don't know what individuals would label this new. This new time period, this new phase that the church is in, but it certainly affected the way that I was being instructed. And also, also in seminary, a major thing was how kind of how open the teachers were to questions. Who's the guy that gave the quote? Like, you know, the age of bearing your testimony, you know, with a question is over. Was that, like, Boyd K. Packer or someone? It was one of the apostles, you

John Dehlin [01:19:18] know, might have been Ballard.

Jaxon Washburn [01:19:19] It's Ballard. Yeah. You know, it was around that same time where I witnessed this firsthand with my seminary teach, where now, instead of, like, maybe doing a little bit of a dodge with a question like, hey, I'll talk to you after class, or, you know, you don't need to worry about that now. We would just stop the lesson. This happened so many times, you know, I kid you not, where we would just stop the lesson and we would just start having a conversation about either something related or completely different because they were not ignoring questions. Now, I don't know how unique it was to my own experience, but that was very cool to see, at least during this. This time period where, like, I felt like I had witnessed a transition moment where, you know, I could distinguish between, you know, kind of my early seminary years or my early Sunday school years, and now the latter end, especially, like, junior and senior year where we'll just start talking about like complex issues and that the teacher will offer a lot of. I don't knows, but here are some resources that you can go check out. You know, they would always point to like kind of church approved sources or. I started to see a lot more use of Fair Mormon or FARMS in the classroom. That was interesting. Kind of the accepting different apologetic websites as acceptable to use in the classroom. Yeah, no, it was just really interesting. Of course it was always faith promoting. It was always like again, reaffirming the institution and the religion and you know, trying to build testimonies and faith. But yeah, if we wanted to talk about seer stones or polygamy or blacks in the priesthood or Book of Abraham issues, we could do it. And that was kind of my experience with that. Really interesting.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] I imagine that whatever years the church wasn't more open or forthcoming about its problematic history or doctrine or teachings. It was fearful that if you are open, you're gonna not only spread the virus, spread the doubt, spread the information that troubles people, but that these conversations would lead to people doubting and questioning and leaving the church. What was your experience in terms of what the impact was for you when these conversations actually in fact started to happen?

Jaxon Washburn [01:21:45] Well, again, I very much appreciated it because I felt from a very young age that becoming educated on different matters, whether they're church related or not, education is never a bad thing. Like, you know, I want to know things and I think if, you know, there's the J. Reuben Clark quote that gets tossed around a lot. You know, like if you believe you have something true, you shouldn't be afraid to question it or whatever. And if you're afraid to question it, then you know, maybe it's not so true or defensible in the first place. Right. Like we should go forward with an in like an open and independent spirit of study and questioning and things like that. Just being critical thinkers. I don't know kind of what caused the church to kind of maybe take a different approach. I'm very glad they did. I feel like now they are more comfortable with individuals doing research like this or having open ended questions. Because I feel like, I mean, whether or not individuals stay or leave, I would assume that just being able to have open, frank conversations would be more helpful and healthy than just cutting it all out and saying no, these are things we don't talk about. Like, you know, I think just in terms of like its effect on individuals who are struggling with things like being able to have a conversation in the first place is going to be a lot more helpful whether or not they end up agreeing with you or not, than just saying, nope, that's something we don't talk about. Like, that comes off as very culty or, you know, very correlated. Right. Very controlling. So I'm glad that it appears that we're moving past that. And in a lot of ways, I feel like we have moved past it. And I've witnessed, in my own experience, this change in attitude in the classroom. I think it's healthier in the long run, and just in terms of practicality, it'll lead to less people leaving the church, you know, and I support it in the first place. What's really interesting is I was reading this Pew Research kind of article today, right? And between different. Different religious groups, like evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants, Catholics, things like that. From their research, it appears that more education correlates with higher levels of religious commitment, at least in Mormons. Those who are college graduates experience. The stats are like 92% experience overall high religious commitment. For high school or less, it's 78%. So they do increase. And for the Mormons, at least, they were one of the few religious groups where that was noted, where instead of decreasing with more education, like education is somehow corrosive to faith or religious belief, instead it's increasing Mormon religious belief. I don't think that, you know, that should be used to say, like, that's just indicative of Mormon truth claims or things like that. But I think that is interesting because both the church and individuals in the past have sometimes acted like becoming knowledgeable on these matters is going to lead to a faith crisis and a broken testimony and a departure from the faith. And I would like to think that's not necessarily the case. I support people in their journeys and whatnot, but I would certainly rather individuals be educated and either stay in the church or leave the church than be not educated and stay in the church because they were never educated to begin with. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:25:44] Yeah. That's core of why I started Mormon stories and why we do what we do. It's like buying a used car if you don't know the problems with the car. And more to the point, if the problems with the car are intentionally withheld from you and you buy that car, I think that's deceptive. People deserve to have a full awareness of the thing they're giving their lives, their time, their money, their children to. And if in any way people are making those decisions without all the information, especially without the troubling information, then I think it's dishonest and it's harmful to people. But if they can have all the information and they still decide to be committed and believe, then that's just deserves respect and love and admiration.

Jaxon Washburn [01:26:36] Yeah, I think. I think both paths should be validated in that case, you know, I recognize that my own experience in kind of doing this investigation, being younger and kind of turning out to be committed to the faith and comfortable with it, a lot of people write that off or refuse to accept it. I find this sometimes in the post Mormon community where kind of this correlated Mormonism that they were raised with. Even though they experience crises of faith and leave the faith, I still witness a lot of intense tribalism and kind of dogmatic black and white thinking. Even though they had left the faith and want validation in their very personal and difficult faith journeys. I don't always have people extend the same to me. Right. As if I'm doing something wrong. Right. Ideally, I would just want members to look at sincere people who decide to leave the church and love them and accept them and just be like, hey, you know, like, that's your choice. Good for you. You used your agency. I would just as much want individuals who leave the church for people who stay to be like, okay, yeah, you're staying. That's your choice as well, you know, and just mutual recognition on both sides. I would love to see that because I don't know, I see problems with both groups on both sides a lot of times.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Totally. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber at Mormonstories. Thank you very much.

Defining the Neo-Apologist Position

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 849

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. All right, well, Jackson, if it's okay, I think it's now time to move from your story to your current beliefs in the church. Yeah, feel free, because I think that would be really interesting. Is that all right?

Jaxon Washburn [00:00:52] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Okay, so let's just begin at the top. You know, you haven't loved the term neo apologist, but you have described yourself as liberal or as progressive sort of believer. So how do you describe. Yeah, how do you describe your beliefs or flavor or style within the church?

Jaxon Washburn [00:01:19] So I mentioned earlier how my interfaith and religious studies efforts are very much. They very much serve to color my current perspective as a Mormon. Right. So one thing that I would say kind of sets me apart. I usually contrast myself against kind of correlation generation or correlation Mormonism, because I recognize that Mormonism or lds. Mormonism hasn't been a static entity since its inception. It's witnessed a fair amount of development. There's different time periods and different perspectives that are held within the faith, both in leadership and in membership. And so the Mormonism of Brigham Young is going to be different than the Mormonism of Bruce R. McConkie, which is going to be different than the Mormonism of me or Terrell Givens or, you know, I just recognize the diversity in Mormonism and recognize that it's not necessarily a monolithic experience, that people can have different takes on the faith, and that's okay. I would kind of compare that to maybe forms of Judaism today where you have lots of different types of Jews, even within the same synagogue, who might believe very different things or have different takes on the faith, and that's encouraged and accepted. I wouldn't say the LDS Church is necessarily at the same place institutionally in terms of making as much room or promoting a lot of diversity and belief, like, we still hold on to a lot of orthodoxy. But I certainly recognize that within the faith community, and I look to individuals who have varying kinds of belief, and I just kind of draw from. From a lot of them, and a lot of them are general authorities, too. So as far as My faith goes. It's pretty universalistic in terms of, like, salvation or things like that. I do hold to, let's say, progression between the kingdoms. And I think that's very much influenced by my mom leaving the faith and different family members and friends leaving the faith too, because I don't see her as. Or people who leave necessarily as a son daughter of perdition. I don't see them as apostates who are lost forever. Like, seriously. And you know this more than I do, John, firsthand. Like, there's legitimately people who think you are like the devil incarnate, you know, just because you were excommunicated. I think that's so wrong. Right? Like, we get these caricatures built up of people who leave the faith. And so I don't hold to those for one. And I do believe in progression between kingdoms. So because of my belief in a God that I assume to be just and fair and understanding, I don't think any of us in this life can have an absolute knowledge of pretty much anything. Like, none of us have the full picture. All of us, as Paul would put it in the New Testament, we see through a glass darkly. So even. And I see prophets the same way. Like, even individuals that I look to as inspired have a limited understanding. And none of us are going to have the opportunity to have a fuller understanding until Judgment Day itself, when we can look and see the full picture and be like, okay, like, that's how it is. I'm making my choice now. I don't see a just God holding limited life experience and understanding against us for eternity. I definitely don't believe in a God who damns people to hell for eternity. You know, I don't know how someone could believe in a God. Like, if there is a God like that, you know, nothing I do is going to change that. But as far as a deity that I would see as deserving of worship and admiration is one that kind of assists us like a parent would with a child, to develop and to learn from mistakes and to just keep moving forward. So I do believe in progression between kingdoms. I don't see myself as unorthodox with that or counter orthodox. I look to different general authorities, different church leaders in the past who do have that same viewpoint of progression between kingdoms. So I don't feel like I'm not being Mormon by believing that. I feel like it's up in the air. As far as, you know, there's no official doctrine or consensus on the matter, but I look to quotes and teachings from different general authorities in the past, you know, so I gain validation from that. So it also colors how I view people of different religions. Because of my exposure to interfaith, I have read, you know, lots of different religious texts. I've read the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, the Upanishads, the major texts of many, many different faiths, right? I've taken the time to read them, to study them, and I've gone to so many places of worship at this point that I've lost track of it, both Christian and non Christian and talking to so many different people, I've seen so much beauty and I've seen so much truth and I've seen so much good that's taught in faiths outside my own. I've witnessed it myself. There's so many things that I look to in other religions that I experience what Krister Stendahl would label as holy envy, you know, that I want to incorporate into my own spirituality and how I see Mormonism. I see Mormonism as an inclusive religion. I can look to statements from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and other individuals who advocate for going out and seeking different truths and just gathering it all up. And that's what Mormonism is all about, is just finding what truth you can and just shoring it all up and being open to it. So that's what I try and live, you know. So as part of my scripture study, you know, I will read from the standard works and whatnot, but I usually am reading something non Mormon at the same time to try and gain some inspiration because I'm just trying to keep myself open to as much wisdom and truth as I can. And both inside the Mormon faith and outside of it, I just take what is good and virtuous and deserving of my attention and what I feel like I should incorporate into my life and the aspects that aren't too good, I just, you know, I don't feel compelled to accept them because I'm someone who, when it comes down to what I believe in, at the point that I am at, I no longer am comfortable bearing a testimony, when I don't mean it, of things that I don't mean. So there's a few things that I will say like I know this is true, right? There's things that I'll say I believe this is true. And I do break down my kind of beliefs in that sense. But I'm just. I'm just very open and I think that people in other faiths are there because God placed them to be there. Like statistically, even though it runs a little counter to a narrative that, you know, myself or others might have been raised with, I don't necessarily believe that being Mormon in this life is what it's all about. That like we are sent to Earth to be Mormon. Right. I think in just terms of a mere numbers game, if being Latter Day Saint, an LDS Mormon was so important, then like.0002% of the Earth's population can ever have that chance to live as a Mormon in mortality. You know what I mean? Like the odds are just so utterly stacked against us that it just opens up my perspective and looking at all these different experiences and I have to think that they're there for a reason, that God has placed them there. Actually, I have a good quote if I can share it. God has essentially placed these individuals here for the purpose of experiencing different things. Gosh, I had it just right there.

The Nature of God and Paths to Exaltation

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Two things that listeners have written in so far. While you're looking for that quote, I'm just going to stall and buy you time. Heath Hendrickson writes, I love your nice deity, but is it the Mormon God that you're talking about? So Heath is questioning whether you're sort of universalistic progression between kingdoms. Lots of paths are valid sort of God. Is that really the Mormon God? So that's a question from Heath. And then another person basically is saying if you don't believe the purpose of life is to become a Latter Day Saint, then why go on a mission and convert people to the LDS Church? Hopefully you found your quote and then you can go back and answer those other things.

Jaxon Washburn [00:10:34] Yeah. So I looked at quotes like this from Brigham Young or others. Brigham Young is just saying if people have a law, no matter who made it and do the best they know how, they will have a glory which is beyond your imagination by any description I might give. You cannot conceive of the least portion of the glory of God prepared for his beings, the workmanship of my hands, or so far as mortality is concerned, millions of the inhabitants of this earth live according to the best light they have, according the best knowledge they possess. I have told you frequently that they will receive according their works and all who live according the best principles in their possession or that they can understand will receive peace, glory, comfort, joy, and a crown that will be far beyond what they are anticipating. There's many other quotes like this and I feel like this is a legitimate Mormon belief, one of inclusivity or recognition that I could very easily support with a whole plethora of quotes and teachings and official statements from the church where, you know, we look to individuals outside the church as possessing light and truth and, you know, true principles still, and we encourage them to live those true principles. You know, everyone, we. I don't think Mormonism claims a monopoly on the truth, at least not the Mormonism I believe in. You know, there might be individuals like, you know, maybe McConkie or someone who might be more insular. Right. But I think from a pretty early stage, like, Mormons have been pretty comfortable recognizing truth in other religions. And even though we do usually put ourselves on a pedestal as possessing a greater truth or, you know, the fullness of the gospel, things like that, I think there's still, it's applicable both ways. Latter Day Saints, if they are living authentically, are operating based off the best truth that they have available to them just as much as any other person is. Right? And so, at least for me, like, just because I'm a Latter Day Saint, I don't think I've crossed the finish line. In fact, like, I just, I feel very much at the same point as many other people do, and that I'm just operating based off the best things that I have available to me. Like, this is what I'm comfortable with. This is my beliefs. You know, I'm moving forward, these things.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] So let me just, Let me just tell you a couple reactions I have, and we'll keep digging into this. When you, when you keep talking about progression between kingdoms, what I hear you saying is that. And when you couple that with your statement that the purpose of existence isn't necessarily to be lds, what I hear you saying is that there are many paths to exaltation. The Mormon Church is one path, but there are other paths too, and we don't understand all the complexities of that. So let's stop this idea that we're better than others, that the Mormon path is superior to all others. There are lots of paths, and in the end, people can reach that ultimate destination of exaltation through lots of paths. Is that an okay summary of what I heard you say, or would you correct that?

Jaxon Washburn [00:13:43] I don't want anyone to be confused and make me out to be some kind of relativist where I don't believe in absolute truths. I do believe in absolute truth, and I do believe, you know, things matter in the end, and that there are exclusive truth claims between religions, that they can all be right at the same time. But that doesn't mean that there aren't true principles or values or things taught in these different faiths, I would like to think of it as kind of a superhighway. Right. Our destination is our individual exaltation or perfection or whatever. Just the betterment of ourselves. Right. And these different religions, they can all get to this point, but at the end of the day, they all kind of merge onto the same superhighway, you know, So I can't speak towards what the afterlife is like. I don't think very many people can with any kind of absolute knowledge, just because we're not there yet. Right. But I'd like to think that at the end of the day, denominations or religious identities in the afterlife, they kind of just. They're not as important as what kind of person are you, where are you at, you know, and what did you do with what was given to you? I'd like to think that that is, you know, of greater importance than whether or not you have a particular religious label or not, you know, or you identify with a particular community. I think they all just kind of. At least that's where I'm at, you know, like, you know, so I'm universalist in that sense. I do believe in saving ordinances, and I do, like. I do hold to, like, kind of exclusive Mormon truth claims, but I recognize that, like, that's just me. Like, that's my decision. That's where I'm at. Other people may think differently, and we're all gonna find out eventually. So, you know, I'm just. I'm just. I'm doing the best that I can with what I have. I invite others to do the same, and I trust that it's gonna work out.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] So you're saying you do see some unique import to the Church's claims to exclusive authority and for the need for LDs saving ordinances, and you're sort of suspending ultimate judgment as to what's ultimately going to be essential in heaven. Those are your personal beliefs. But you're open to the, you know, the resolution in heaven to being a lot more complex than any of us thinks.

Jaxon Washburn [00:16:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] Is that fair to say?

Jaxon Washburn [00:16:08] Yeah. Like I said earlier, there's some aspects of my faith that I'm more agnostic about maybe than others. Right. And so I'll openly admit to those. And then there's others that I am, like, pretty more convinced of. But at the end of the day, like, you know, I. As far as the afterlife goes, like, we're just not there yet. Like, none of us. None of us know completely. Right. So I'm hesitant to say, like, I know this is the way things are gonna be. And I'm absolutely certain. And, you know, like, no way it's any. You know, there's no possible way that it could be anything different. I always say that I am counting on being surprised in the afterlife, because if I get there and I'm not surprised, it's gonna be very surprising. You know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Yeah. And what I hear you modeling is what I've heard referred to as epistemic humility, that you may have beliefs, but you're admitting shades of belief. Anything from knowledge and confidence to just total agnosticism and uncertainty and an ultimate openness to being completely wrong. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:17:12] Yeah. So I wanna go to Heath's question as far as, like, is my belief or kind of hope in the Mormon God? The actual Mormon God. Right. And again, I would just go back to my earlier statement in that I don't think Mormonism has ever been a monolithic experience. I think even within the general authorities, like, you have individuals who conceive of God in different ways. I mean, surely freaking Orson Pratt and Brigham Young, they certainly didn't agree as the nature of God. Right. So there hasn't been a monolithic Mormon God in the first place. You know, our conception of deity, even outside Mormonism, too, like you look at the Bible and the New Testament and even the Book of Mormon views on God develop, our understanding of the divine changes. And it hasn't been the same from day one to now. So I would like to think that, you know, I do believe in God. I believe in a divine being. I believe in heavenly mother, divine, feminine, divine, masculine. I believe in these things. I believe that I have a relationship with God. I believe that other people who aren't Mormon have relationship with God. And so I don't necessarily see our specific, individual, mortal, limited conceptions of deity as being too limiting as to how deep of a relationship we can have with God. So just the fact that Mother Teresa might have conceived of God and a trinity, she certainly. Well, actually, maybe she's not the best example because she struggled a lot with her personal faith. But, you know, just individuals, you know, Gandhi, individuals like that, outside of my own faith tradition, when you are serving humanity and the way you live your life is just so phenomenal and praiseworthy. I'd like to think that they have a pretty thorough understanding of who God is and, you know, what the purpose of life is too, when I'm seeing them live a certain way. That's kind of what it boils down to for me. So I would push back on this kind of correlated idea that God is one way, which, you know, whoever God is, whoever he ends up to be at the end of the day, like, that's absolute. And, you know, so you can't have, like, Jesus being God but also not God at the same time. You know, there's some. There's some exclusive truth claims that we have to recognize. But in looking at, like, the development of theology in the Bible from an early kind of polytheistic, patristic or like, early patriarch view to kind of monolatry where, you know, the Israelites, they worship and cling to one God, but recognize other divine beings exist. They just don't worship them because they're not in covenant relationship to more of an ethical monotheism that was instituted through the Josiah reforms to, you know, an early trinitarianism by the early Christian church

John Dehlin [00:20:25] and the Book of Mormon.

Jaxon Washburn [00:20:26] Right. Yeah, no, exactly. Right. Um. And yeah, so we just have to understand that, like, yes, there's more messy messiness, there's complexity. And when you break these things down, like, I'm, again, I'm just doing the best with what I have, with what I feel has been, like, revealed or confirmed to me. I recognize other people are in different locations, and very much like our individual cultures also reflect or can influence how we conceive of God. So, you know, like, when you look at depictions of heavenly father or Jesus in artwork, Caucasian, white, you know, old guys, maybe British accents, you know, in movies maybe. Right. Like, you look in India with Hinduism, you have different deities who reflect local animals. Right. People are very much inclined to project deity as reflective of who they are. Right. So I think that's very natural. And that's something that, like,

John Dehlin [00:21:32] it's odd because in the modern Mormon Church, it's old white men, which is kind of who leads the church.

Jaxon Washburn [00:21:36] So I'd like to conceive of, like, okay, I'm open to the idea that Joseph Smith could have seen God the Father and Jesus Christ appear in that form. Like, I'm not opposed to deity taking on different forms to appear to us in ways that we're comfortable with or familiar with, but that doesn't necessarily make God's race white and Caucasian. You know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [00:22:00] What about anthropomorphic for you? Does God need to be anthropomorphic and exalted human?

Jaxon Washburn [00:22:08] Well, I think that's unique to Mormonism. And very much the concept of, like, Mormon theosis or exaltation is something I feel I see as very compelling and appealing and so, yes, like, I do hold to an anthropomorphic belief in God, or, you know, just that I do see us as gods and embryo or that we can progress to a state that God now is. Right. So I do hold to that view. I don't know what a divine body looks like. I've never seen one, you know, so I can't speak to what that is. But I do believe that we are of the same being as God. Right. And that we can progress to kind of his status.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] So one of the questions I keep getting from people, as they're listening, a lot of our listeners, including Miles, people are saying, you know, okay, on the one hand, Jackson, you want to say that none of us can have a complete understanding of God, that our understanding of God continues to evolve. And those who know Mormon history will know that the version of God in the Book of Mormon is actually different than the version of God that Joseph Smith was teaching in Nauvoo. And so even within the church's lifetime, the church has evolved. And then, of course, as you mentioned, Adam God theory with Brigham Young and Orson Pratt and others, it's messy. However, others are going to say that, no, that's why we have prophets. Prophets are here to tell us what the nature of God is. Joseph and the restoration were here to clear it all up. And so you can't have it both ways. You know, one, that there's a restoration, that prophets clear all this up and tell us what's true. And yet, Jackson, what some are saying is you want to hold on to this sort of flexible view where it could be anything and we have limited understanding. You know, a lot of people want to say that's the whole reason why we had a restoration and that's why

Jaxon Washburn [00:24:07] we have prophets, is to better understand the nature of God.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] Yeah. As a core thing. Right. As a core tenet of Mormonism is that Joseph helped want to clarify who God was and why we should believe in Him.

Jaxon Washburn [00:24:22] And I don't disagree with that. You know, like, I do look to, like, the King Follett discourse and a lot of Joseph's later understanding of deity as both unique and very necessary to at least my Mormon identity. It sets it apart in the realm of world religions. And so, yeah, I do feel like Joseph, I believe that Joseph restored or expanded or clarified aspects of God, such as, you know, teaching that we are of the same being as God. There's no ontological divide between God and man as traditional Christianity is held. I mean, it's a radical movement that Judaism Islam and Christianity in all their traditional forms never get to yes, like the early church fathers in the early Christian church did teach that we can experience Godhood through God's grace, but they never taught that we are of the same ontological kind as God. Right. This is something that, at least for me, unique to Joseph. And so because I believe in it, like I do believe he restored that. And I think this brings us kind of into a conversation on my views on revelation and prophets that I can kind of go into now. So contrary maybe to the correlation view of prophets in that individuals who maybe can never teach something false or have kind of like a one way connection with God, you know, like a game of telephone kind of where God speaks through them and it's verbatim and everything. I somewhat look at prophets a little bit differently. Like I believe that they're inspired, I believe that they can have bona fide revelations. But I look at the process of revelation and I see something very complex going on with Joseph in particular, that sets the model for how I see revelation to begin with. So I see revelation as kind of a three part process in that we have deity who wants to speak to man, has to condescend to a level of human understanding, express kind of what he wants to say or the inspired words that he's telling these individuals which we label as prophets. So he speaks to them in language they can understand the individual in question. The prophet has to then recognize that revelation taking place. They have to make sense of it, they have to grapple with it, and then they have to repackage it for delivery to a larger audience. And so I guess what I'm saying is I'm more open to the influence and role of the human involvement in that process rather than making it all just on God to speak, you know, his clear word. It's like a two way type process. You know, it's both God being involved, but man also being involved. And so I recognize that I don't hold revelations to be infallible or inerrant. In fact, a lot of times they are colored by the individual experience and perspective and understanding of that current individual in question. And so that's going to reflect on the way that they, that they kind of give these revelations. So I do believe that prophets are inspired. You know, I believe that we're led by inspired men today, you know, through the LDS Church. I believe individuals can be inspired outside the LDS Church, but that what sets the LDS prophets apart for me, or at least the leadership is I do believe like in Priesthood authority, and I believe in saving ordinances and things like that. So I do think that leaders of the church have been given stewardship over these saving ordinances and that, you know, that's why they alone can access them. But it doesn't rule out my belief that Pope Francis is being inspired right now to lead the Catholic Church or other individuals who are seeking after God can find inspiration as well. So when I read texts like the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and even scriptures outside the faith, I just see this process of God and man coming together and it being a joint effort. And the Scriptures are very much colored by the human experience as much as they are by the divine experience as well. And so I guess maybe it's more gray than some. Some black and white conceptions have been in the past.

Prophets, Revelation, and Church Mistakes

John Dehlin [00:29:23] Can. Can prophets just get it wrong in your mind?

Jaxon Washburn [00:29:27] I mean, hey, we already discussed Adam God theory. I don't agree with that. You know, so that's something that obviously Brigham Young held to dearly at, I think, the latter end of his life. And so, yeah, I do believe that they can get it wrong. And that's why, for me personally, I cling to the individual responsibility to seek after confirmation and again strive after what I feel is authentic and right and live that, you know, so when a

John Dehlin [00:30:01] revelation, are you comfortable sharing the areas where you feel like the prophets have got it wrong, or are you not comfortable doing that?

Jaxon Washburn [00:30:07] Blacks in the priesthood, I don't think that was legit as far as being inspired. I think the fact that Joseph ordained black men in his lifetime. And also when I read the Book of Mormon, I see a very. I see a text that, contrary to a lot of people's opinions or interpretations, I see it as condemning racism rather than supporting it. I think when individuals have used the Book of Mormon in the past to support their individual kind of perspectives on race, I think that's been mistaken. I don't think that's the Book of Mormon's ultimate message. And so I would have loved to see Mormonism move forward as a very progressive faith that continues to ordain black men during that time period. And I think that the priesthood ban was a stain on the church. I don't think it was inspired. I think a lot of it was perpetuated by acceptance of the status quo at the time. And I think Brigham Young and other individuals very much it just shows how prophets can and do at times, bring their own backgrounds and experiences and perspectives as part of their ministry. So I have, yeah, I Don't think it was inspired as far as the church goes. And they have no official statement whether or not it was inspired. You know, if you've read the gospel topic essay, it's just kind of a. Well, we don't, we don't really know for sure. I recognize that I don't feel like it was inspired and so I don't see it that way. I feel like that was a major place that we could have done better and that it's unfortunate that things were perpetuated for that long.

Race, LGBT Policies, and Church Transparency

John Dehlin [00:31:59] If you could just list any other areas. Some would say there's some pretty explicit racism in the Book of Mormon. Basically claiming that God curses people with dark skin because of their wickedness and to make them appear loathsome to the non dark people. Do you consider that to be a mistake?

Jaxon Washburn [00:32:19] Yeah, like I think again, this is just exemplifying the human experience in scripture such as the Book of Mormon. So when I look at statements by. It was either Nephi or Jacob that first talk about that, you know, you have a separation between the two family groups and a change of skin color is noted between them. So we'll talk about my views on the Book of Mormon later because this ties into them. Like I hold to like a limited geography theory and kind of an expansionist view of the translation. But as far as matters of race in the Book of Mormon go, like, I feel like its ultimate message is to kind of condemn racism because it was, it was divisions by class and race or by ethnicity, by group that ultimately led to the downfall of one of the major civilizations in the Book of Mormon. And I see places in second Nephi, you know, black and white, all are alike to God.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] You see the Book of Mormon as actually having errors then as it relates to the idea of God cursing people with dark skin for their wickedness.

Jaxon Washburn [00:33:43] I view it just like I do the Bible. So like when I read about the conquest of the Canaanites in Joshua and the justification that comes for genocide and things like that, there's, there's, I can't conceive of a deity that would condone that. And so it's in matters like this that seem to run contrary to what I believe God would do that I'm usually like, you know, I think that's, that's human interaction in the text. And I can usually find places that, that I feel very much speaks to the, the role of human influence. So I see the Bible in the Book of Mormon similarly in that, you know, I think they're influenced by Their authors, I think that they're subject to the dispositions and the biases of the individuals who wrote them, and they're reflective of their different experiences. So sometimes that that includes individuals grappling with intense problems, such as immediately following what say that the conquest of the Canaanites. Well, now we have to justify it. It might just be easier to say that God condoned it and that's why we did it.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] What about the church's policies with LGBT people? You don't have to give deep explanations of these things. I'm just curious where you see the church as making mistakes. Do you see the church's policies with LGBT people being mistakes?

Jaxon Washburn [00:35:16] Well, I think I definitely recognize that there's been a development of the church's stance on LGBT matters over the different decades. I think we're moving forward in a better place, but we're still seeing kind of maybe internal remnants or struggles of how we're actually gonna approach same sex attraction or different sexual orientations as a church. I think there's more kind of progressive voices in church leadership that see things one way and others who are more conservative or traditional that see things another way. I can say that. And this is a view that's changed of mine in about recent. In the past year or so is kind of my reaction to the November 15th or November 5th policy from 2015. Originally, when that came out, I was like, hey, sounds good. Like, I don't really mind, right? And I was like, you know, this is something that I can sustain my church leaders on. My views have changed since then, and I can say in maybe a diplomatic way that it's not something that I have a testimony of. So, you know, it's a.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] What about the church's opposition to legal same sex marriage?

Jaxon Washburn [00:36:44] Yeah, I mean, Prop 8 was a major thing that affected my mom and that she had some major problems with. I think we've developed and made progress now. And, you know, there's been statements made where, you know, members of the church can support civil same sex unions and not, you know, run in danger of, like, church discipline or.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] You mean same sex marriage?

Jaxon Washburn [00:37:12] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] So are you. Are you in support of civil same sex marriage personally?

Jaxon Washburn [00:37:15] I am. I am. I'm rather. I'm rather libertarian when it comes to marriage. You know, when it comes to consent and things like that. I would be just as supportive of individuals in a same sex marriage as I would in a heterosexual marriage as I would and even a polygamous marriage if individuals, you know, consented to that.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] What about the Church not always. Sometimes hiding or misleading or not being forthright about its history. Do you feel like the church has made mistakes there?

Jaxon Washburn [00:37:49] Yes, and I feel like there's places in history that we can point to where we had the potential to go forward. Such as? I think it was with Leonard Arrington. Didn't he have a multi volume series of church history? Yeah. And that, that got, you know, scrapped. That was in the 70s, I think too.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Yeah. Along with his whole administration. Eventually got scrapped.

Jaxon Washburn [00:38:11] Yeah. Right. So I see. And that was like, you know, turning into the correlation era or at the height of it or whatever. You know, I generally don't look at the correlation era as something positive that happened to the church. I, I think there's obvious complexity that comes with creating a global ecclesiastical organization and trying to have orthodoxy throughout it. That's a complex matter. I feel like in terms of correlation though, we swung too far in terms of fundamentalism and it's affecting people negatively. And we're paying for it now and I think we're going to continue to pay for it for several decades. You know, I mentioned how in my lifetime I've witnessed the church kind of, at least in its curriculum, move away from a very traditional correlation based narrative to one that's more open to transparency and you know, talking about issues. I think we're going to continue to do that. The Joseph Smith Papers project is phenomenal. You know, there's very positive steps that I recognize with the church where I'm like, that should have happened in the 70s if that would have happened in the 70s. You know, there's generations of individuals in the correlation era that I think wouldn't have left the church or wouldn't have had as major problems with it. So like when I talk to people and this is something that, you know, I'm certain that you've heard as well. You know, individuals aren't so opposed to the idea of seer stones being used in the translation. They are to just feeling like they weren't informed in the first place. Right. It's more the hurt of feeling like I didn't have the full picture to begin with. When there was information out there, then, wow, like I can accept, you know, Moses healing people with a bronze serpent, but I can't accept seer stones. You know, like most people when they look at these miracles or what would be considered miraculous, it's not a huge leap to accept seer stones as part of the translation process. The bigger issue is when individuals feel like they didn't have access or they weren't informed in these matters in the first place. I feel like that is a problem that was both cultural in nature, but certainly institutional correlation efforts didn't help it. So. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I could probably rant about correlation for a while just because I've seen a lot of hurt that it's caused in my family and family members and, you know, I'm sure you have as well.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] What about. What about the church excommunicating? You know, people who doubt or question or talk openly about these things, like

Jaxon Washburn [00:40:55] maybe the September six them.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] Jeremy Runnels, Kate Kelly, me. You know, lots of people. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:41:02] Well, I mean, it is a personal process. So it's not like I was in your disciplinary court or I haven't lived your experience. I haven't lived Jeremy's experience. I haven't lived Kate's or the September six's Some of the september sixth. It was interesting. Like in the. In the case of. I think his last name was Giulioti. Giulioti. Abraham Giulioti. I don't know how to pronounce his last name.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] Giulioi. I think.

Jaxon Washburn [00:41:29] Yeah, Gileadi. He was actually seen as a little bit too not so progressive as he was on the other end of the spectrum. And so that was just kind of an interesting episode, I don't think. Like, I'm not a fan of excommunicating people for asking questions like that. If. If I'm right, if I'm getting this right, like the Calderwoods, right. When I hear their story, like, that kind of surprises me that that even happened to them, because, you know, they weren't. They were just kind of asking questions. I think when it comes to, like, openly saying, like, I'm not. I don't believe in Mormonism, and, you know, I am advocating for critiques of the faith or things like that, you know, like, I'm not opposed to excommunication for matters like that. I would like to believe that, like, individuals who even believe anymore leave before they get excommunicated, or at least they're given the chance to be like, okay, I'm gonna resign my membership, because why am I even here in the first place? You know, I can't speak for you. I can't speak for Jeremy. And, you know, I'm not. I'm not too familiar with the particulars of either of your experiences, but there's instances where I think excommunication might be warranted and then others where I've heard it go in a very awful direction that maybe wasn't too fair. So I don't know, I have mixed feelings on it because it's an individual matter. It's going to be a case by case basis.

Staying in an Imperfect Church

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Okay, so one of the big questions people are asking you online is, that's fine, Jackson. You are willing to say the brethren are imperfect. You're willing to say that there should be a big tent. You're willing to look at Mormonism in a universalistic way, that there are many paths in the superhighway way to exaltation. But a lot of people are saying, yeah, but that's not the Mormonism we live in. That's not how the church leaders see the church. And all this sort of buffet, liberal, progressive, open minded Mormonism that you feel good about is not modern Mormonism. If you talk to any of the Quorum of the twelve or the First Presidency, they would object to most, if not all of what you're saying. They might even punish you for it. And so what you're believing in is a brand of Jacksonian Mormonism, you know, but it's not Mormonism and it's not 21st century Mormonism and it's not something that would be endorsed by the people that you sustain as prophet seers and revelators.

Jaxon Washburn [00:44:10] I think that's interesting. So my reaction to kind of accusations that I'm practicing what's been called Jacksonism or you know, that I'm, I'm like a salad bar Mormon is when I bring up these views on Mormonism that I have, I'm just as ready to back them up with quotes from general authorities and from, you know, citations from scripture and things like that to kind of give them more weight than just me being like, you know, this is just my feelings. Like I am. I don't feel personally like I'm out on a limb here. I feel like I can justify all these different viewpoints that I hold, you know, in some way or another by

John Dehlin [00:44:49] statements from modern prophetseers and revelators.

Jaxon Washburn [00:44:53] It depends. Some of them. I mean, you have a good section on your website where you have quotes from LDS Church leaders that support or inspire you. And some of those are by modern church member or church leaders that I feel like if I had a conversation with them and kind of expressed where I'm at, you know, maybe, maybe there's some things we would disagree with. But overall I feel like it wouldn't be like a hostel, like I wouldn't be the apostate in the situation, because here I am affirming the institution I am, you know, inviting others to learn more about the faith. I am, you know, faithful and believing in terms of, like, I can go through the temple, recommend questions and answer them all honestly, you know, and give the answers, you know, where I'm a temple worthy member, you know. So in terms of, like, how unorthodox I am, I don't see myself as counter orthodox. There's some views I have that are a little unorthodox and maybe do run counter to the narrative that has been taught. But again, I don't recognize Mormonism as a monolithic experience in the first place.

John Dehlin [00:45:59] No, I know you made that point, but let me just. And I'm not trying to argue. I just want to be really clear. You won't hear modern prophets, seers, and revelators at general conference saying things like, God is bigger than what we understand, and the church is one of many highways to salvation, and we make, you know, maybe you'll hear them say just recently that they make mistakes, but what you more often hear is, follow us, we are the path, you know, we know what's right, etc. You won't hear them talking about a lot of the nuanced things. You hear them basically still pounding the correlated sort of orthodox message. So I know your broad view of Mormonism is expensive. I want you to address the idea that the Q15 are not advocating publicly the brand of Mormonism that you seem to be holding to. And how do you make sense of that discrepancy?

Jaxon Washburn [00:47:00] Well, again, I think it plays into experience. Like, I can't help but have a lot of these views on. On my faith because of my lived experience. My exposure to other religions has very much brought me to kind of this perspective. And so it's not that I'm purposefully going out of my way to kind of be unorthodox. Like, this is how, you know, this is how I see the world. And so I look at them the same way. Like, a lot of them, I would assume, can't help but see things in a certain way. And, you know, they are free to do that and free to kind of establish boundaries for orthodoxy within the faith. I don't have a problem with that. And I almost expect them to, because it might be kind of weird, you know, if the opposite were true, if leaders of a particular religion were saying, hey, you know, go. The other guys are just as good, you know, or just as valid. Like, you know, we're on the same level as Pope Francis or things like that. Like, I'm not saying that they're on the same level because in my belief, like I do look to them as prophets, seers and revelators in God's church. And you know, so like in my life they take precedence. You know, I look to them as the authorities in my life. I can look to others as well outside the faith, but primarily because my identity is that of a Latter Day Saint. I affirm them in their positions, in their authority, and I look to them while at the same time feeling free and without conflict in kind of having some of these other views. I've had very frank conversations with different church leaders, whether they're bishops or stake presidents or things like that, where I kind of share my thoughts on these matters. Recently I've become a lot more comfortable doing that within kind of a one, on one basis with local church leaders. And I've never really gotten pushback. You know, like I just explain where I'm at, where I'm coming from and you know, throw some quotes in there, you know, kind of justify myself through scripture and yeah, it's not something I feel like I can be disciplined for or that I can receive a lot of pushback. You know, people can disagree for sure and they can support their views on Mormonism, their takes on Mormonism differently, and back them up with different quotes. I mean, you know, obviously someone could go through and still push for correlated Mormonism because there's so many, there's a plethora of quotations that they could support with those. You know, I think it's a process for each person. And so I kind of resist the accusation that I'm cherry picking Mormonism or that I'm like a cafeteria Mormon, because at the end of the day my question is who is not a cafeteria Mormon? Like, who do we look to as like the pinnacle of what a Mormon is? Because if we look to the, the Q15 now, there's going to be differences in them, in each one of them, you know, likely, you know, whether minor, you know, maybe major between them and prophets and leaders of past years, the church or, you know, like my whole thing is there's never been consistency. And so we shouldn't expect there to be just consistency all around. Because if someone is to say like, I'm not a full Mormon, what is a full Mormon? How are we defining that? You know, is that presently defined by the quorum of the 12? Is that defined by McConkie's version of Mormonism? Is it Joseph Smith's view on Mormonism? You know, so that's my question is like who would we look to in the first place to even establish that? Because the whole nature of progressive revelation and changing church leadership and things like that has shown that it's more complex than just this is what a Mormon looks like. And, you know, if you don't kind of fit this cookie cutter mold, then you're not fully a Mormon. You know, people drop boundary lines for sure, and leaders do that for sure. But those boundary lines, even in history, haven't always been consistent as far as what is and isn't orthodoxy, you know, yet.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] Certainly you would love to see the leaders give more inclusive messages, probably admit to their mistakes, apologize when they make mistakes, encourage a support and appreciation for diversity or not. I don't mean to put words in your mouth.

Jaxon Washburn [00:51:41] I feel like that's happening, like we're seeing that happen more and more. If I can. Let me. Let me go to a quote by Uchtdorf.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] As you're looking up the quote, a lot of people are wanting to know if you've been through the temple yet as an endowment.

Jaxon Washburn [00:51:56] I'm planning on doing that in the spring, though, so that's coming up pretty soon. And what I can say about that is that I'm definitely not going in blind. I kind of, you know, I. Beyond temple prep, I know what to expect, so I'm not going in. About to be surprised by any means. Okay, so here's something I loved hearing from Holland recently. It was at just a recent conference. The talk is songs sung and unsung. He said he's comparing the church or the gospel to a choir. Right. And I think this is so inclusive. He says, brothers and sisters, we live in a mortal world with many songs we cannot or do not yet sing. But I plead with each one of us to stay permanently and faithfully in the choir, where we will be able to savor forever the most precious anthem of all, a song of redeeming love. Fortunately, the seats for this particular number are limitless. There is room for those who speak different languages, celebrate diverse cultures, and live in a host of locations. There's room for the single and for the married, for large families and for the childless. There's room for those who once had questions regarding their faith and room for those who still do. There is room for those with differing sexual attractions. In short, there is a place for everyone who loves God and honors his commandments as the inviolable measuring rod of personal behavior. For if love of God is a melody of our shared song, surely our common quest to obey him is the indispensable harmony in it with divine imperatives of love and faith, repentance and compassion, honesty and forgiveness. There's room in this choir for all who wish to be there. Come as you are, a loving father says to each one of us. But he adds, don't plan to stay as you are. We smile and remember that God is determined to make more of us than we thought we could be. So, you know, I understand that like, well, we can have a conversation about, like, whether or not that reflects institutionally things that have happened in the church or things that still are happening. But it's statements like this that give me hope. You know, it's things like this that I can pull from modern general authorities or from previous ones where I see a very inclusive message. And so it's because I feel so I find them so appealing and I find so much hope in them that I accent them a little bit, like they stand out in my personal faith as kind of like the main things that I draw inspiration from, you know, and so when I look to different individuals who have different takes on Mormonism, people accent different statements and give them more emphasis, you know, so if you want to push for correlated Mormonism, you can definitely find quotes that do that. I'm pushing for more of an inclusive Mormonism. And so this is an example of quotes of various quotes that I would pull to kind of justify where I'm at and what I'm pushing for.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] And I think that's reasonable and beautiful and optimistic. I'm sure you can see that some of those quotes, when given, even though they rightly give you hope, and I think they really do indicate the direction of the church at best, sometimes they can be seen as superficial in the sense that they're just kind of PR statements that are made selectively that don't necessarily have a lot of weight behind it. But at the other extreme, they can actually be seen as very invalidating and almost deceptive or insulting. Because if a child who's the child of a same sex married couple or even a same sex married couple wants to actually participate in full communion with the Saints, they certainly can't. And so they're going to feel insulted or misled by statements that suggest the church is more open and diverse than it really is. Do you acknowledge that?

Jaxon Washburn [00:55:46] No, I do acknowledge that. There's definitely a tension. And definitely actions in the church don't always represent some of these ideals that I would say we're striving for, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] Right, okay, good. That's fair. That's Totally fair.

Jaxon Washburn [00:56:00] You know, like, I think we fall short, we still struggle, but at least it's quotes like this that give me permission or validation in what I'm trying to push for. You know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [00:56:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. And I think hopefully everybody wants the church to be a healthier, happier place. And any ex Mormon or post Mormon that doesn't want the church to get better and to do better and to harm less people, I struggle with that person. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:56:31] I do, too.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Okay, so. So we talked about your belief in God. How important is it in your faith, this idea of a literally resurrected, historical, you know, Jesus as the Son of God sort of thing?

Jaxon Washburn [00:56:46] I don't know if you could have a form of Mormonism that's still authentic to something that could be considered Mormonism that doesn't have Christ as a centerpiece or a major component. You know,

John Dehlin [00:57:02] what about a resurrected Christ? Is that a sense of.

Jaxon Washburn [00:57:04] Yeah, I mean, I mean, same thing. Like, I think, like, once. So there's certain. There's certain points of orthodoxy that I would see that I would say, like, we kind of have to maintain in order to maintain something of a Mormon identity. Once you start giving away, you know, taking away from them, I don't really know what's left to set Mormonism apart or give it. Okay, vitality, you know, so, like, same thing. If, like, let's say we were to say the Book of Mormon isn't scripture, I don't know if you could retain a Mormon identity that's legitimate. You know, like, I don't know how someone could make that work. I certainly can't.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] Well, let me just tell you, there are people that don't necessarily believe in supernatural sort of things. They believe that maybe Jesus was a historical figure and maybe they love the teachings that are attributed to Jesus, but they don't know that they can sign up for a virgin birth and this need for him to be punished for humans that are made imperfect to then, you know, to make it right for their sins, that God would even need to punish someone for other people's mistakes. And then that this perfect, this being was perfect on the earth, and then this person transcended death. And so what they do is they say, well, I could believe in the teachings of Jesus and, you know, the teachings of faith and humility and kindness and charity and love, but I just have no idea if actually a Jesus resurrected. Do you want these people. Do you think these people shouldn't consider themselves Mormon? Shouldn't consider Themselves worthy.

Jaxon Washburn [00:58:46] What you're describing to me sounds more like someone who is more agnostic or is approaching these things with what we mentioned, epistemic humility. Right. Where, you know, I don't like, who can prove that there was a virgin birth. I don't know any of us could prove, prove it in a sense. You know, a lot of us hold to that belief for sure, and very strongly so. But as far as knowing and recognizing the extent of our knowledge, I want to make church a place where individuals at different points in their faith journey are comfortable with. I would love for church to be a place where we recognize that not everyone is at the same place. Like, you know, there's still, there's still points of orthodoxy that I think, you know, are integral to identity. But if there, let's say, is an individual in the room who isn't sure or maybe even doesn't believe in a literal historical Book of Mormon. Right. I don't think they should be excluded from membership because of that. I look to kind of the temple recommend interview questions as a model for our test of orthodoxy. I mean, we have like three or four that have to have anything to do with personal affirmations of belief. You know, do you believe like in a restoration, do you believe in God or Jesus or the atonement or, you know, things like that. But how one goes about believing in those things are left rather open ended, you know, where just giving a yes is fine. Even though there's this orthodoxy that attaches a lot more beliefs to that when it comes to the temple and when it comes to the very question that's asked, you know, do you believe in Jesus Christ and his atonement? If someone can answer yes to that and feel authentic with themselves, that yes is good enough to get them a temple recommend.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] What if someone, when they say yes, they don't really believe, have any belief that Jesus actually resurrected and they don't really believe that Jesus had to be punished for everyone's sins in aggregate and instead what they believe is. I have no idea if Jesus ever lived. I'm kind of a little bit skeptical. But I love his teachings about kindness and service.

Jaxon Washburn [01:01:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] Are you okay with that person deciding that they're worthy to have a temple recommend?

Jaxon Washburn [01:01:12] Yeah, I'm not sure actually that's something I'll have to think about personally because. Yeah, I'll have to give more thought to that because that, well, one that's a personal matter that I don't know if I could make judgment on that. That seems more like A conversation to be had between an individual and their bishop and between an individual and God. Right. I'm not against the idea of drawing line, boundary lines for temple worship and temple observance or kind of setting aside space that, you know, maybe, you know, we do hold as orthodoxy that individuals need to, need to believe certain things in a certain way, you know, otherwise I don't see much point in even going to the temple in the first place to engage in these ceremonies and rituals, let's say, if an individual doesn't believe in them in the first place. Like I certainly don't believe that someone should be baptized if they don't believe in baptism in the first place, you know, or if it doesn't have meaning to them.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] No, no. But someone can just say, hey, the temple's a great place to contemplated, to meditate and to feel spirituality. And baptism is a way to just show your commitment to, you know, good living, good principles.

Jaxon Washburn [01:02:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] It doesn't have to be saying, I know that Jesus resurrected and was punished for all our sins. You know what I mean? It can mean a lot of things. Christianity can be non literal. The Christian world, as you know, is full of people that are like Jesus. You know, Moses may not have existed. I mean, really think about what you've studied about the Old Testament. There are tons of Jews that don't even believe that Moses existed.

Jaxon Washburn [01:03:00] Of course.

John Dehlin [01:03:00] And if Moses and Abraham, if Moses and Abraham didn't exist, then the whole covenant that Jesus swore to didn't really happen. And so sort of the whole thing gets undermined.

Jaxon Washburn [01:03:14] Or there's lots of Jews that don't even believe in God too, but still retain Judaism. So I'm not opposed to the idea of Mormonism becoming more like Judaism in this sense.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] That's how you started this interview, right?

Jaxon Washburn [01:03:26] Yeah, yeah. But what's nice about Judaism is that there's different flavors of Judaism and different synagogues for different types of people. You know, you have the range from more orthodox to more liberal forms of Judaism. So an individual within Judaism who wants to have that kind of experience, you know, they're able to go to a different synagogue or, you know, just kind of move over. Same with Christianity, there's a lot of diversity that, you know, there's liberal Christianity and more orthodox fundamentalist Christianity within Mormonism, just in terms of numbers. I don't know if we're there just because the mass amount of individuals who identify as Mormon belong to the Latter Day Saint Church. You know, I think the community of Christ is a great example for Or a place maybe for individuals who want to retain identity with the restorationist movement and still want to hold on to a lot of these things, but also want to feel more institutionally comfortable within this kind of setting as per the views that they're currently having.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] Okay. And I just want to say that I'm. And this isn't a condemn or challenge you. I'm hearing a bit of a mixed message from you because on the one hand, you do say you want Mormonism to be more like Judaism, where there could be the equivalent to Reform Judaism, where you don't have to believe in God or Moses or the literality of Judaism is sort of the one true path. And you're saying that you're not so sure. How could anyone sort of claim to be Mormon if they don't have a literal belief in Christ's resurrection?

Jaxon Washburn [01:05:04] One thing I'm doing, I'm using terms that kind of bleed over into different categories. So when I talk about Mormonism, we can talk about Mormonism in an elementary context or we can talk about Mormonism as a broader umbrella of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] Right now, I'm interested in your views about the LDS Church.

Jaxon Washburn [01:05:19] Okay, the LDS Church. I'm fine with the LDS Church kind of maintaining statements of orthodoxy or certain standards of orthodoxy because it's an institution. I think it has that ability as an institution. I would like to see more comfort for individuals who still want to participate in the community but aren't necessarily at the same place belief wise. So, you know, if an individual in priesthood or relief society or something like that associates with more with Latter Day Saint Mormonism through their culture, but other than that, like, you know, they don't necessarily ascribe to a lot of the same beliefs. I want those individuals to feel comfortable or at least have a space to participate. I don't know if I would agree with full participation being granted just because I think, again, an institution has the right to kind of establish those lines of orthodoxy. But currently where we're at, I would like to see improved to where individuals with doubts, with questions who feel more like the black sheet, they feel more comfortable fitting in. And there's. There's instances where certain wards have taken measures to make individuals like that feel comfortable. But I would like to see that become more of the norm as opposed to the exception. But as far as, like temple access or baptism or things like that, yeah, it's more a decision for maybe church leadership for how they would want to go about it. So, you know. Yeah, I would just hope that, like an individual in the pews can show up to church and they feel like the community is welcoming to them.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] The challenge, you know, not to turn this back on me, but I was struggling to remain active and faithful up until my excommunication. And I can tell you that I expressed just doubts about the existence of God and doubts about this teaching around a literal resurrection. Just sort of. I don't know, I'm not sure I believe it. Sometimes it seems too convenient. I was going through a legitimate period where I was just doubting and questioning. And the message I got is you could believe and doubt whatever you want, just don't speak about it publicly. And your podcast is too big of a platform. That's kind of where I got problematic. But it was just this sense that you can have doubts and struggles. Just keep it to yourself or keep it quietly to your leaders. It's just as soon as you try and talk openly and publicly about it where you reach a problem. And I didn't love that. I didn't love this idea that you had to hide and keep secret who you are or were out of fear. And then the second thing I didn't love is the sense of being a second class citizen. Like, if I'm open about my doubts, if I'm going through a genuine faith crisis and I want to baptize my child or I want to go through the temple to see my sibling or my niece or nephew get baptized, then I'm going to be publicly shamed by being told I can't baptize my kid or I can't go through the temple, or that I have to be a second class citizen in the church. That was really hard for me.

Jaxon Washburn [01:08:37] Yeah, yeah. There's certainly tensions there. Totally get that. It just seems like kind of a tough situation because I can definitely see your perspective and I can see like the institutional perspective too, where exactly institution that has a certain mission or a certain focus or a certain message. Right. Wants that focus to remain on that message, you know, so like, at least, like, I would hope that like, church is a place where like we are taught the gospel. Right. But at the same time individuals can question it and things like that. But I don't know, I mean, I mean, like, I would want questions to be expressed in class. I've certainly expressed questions in class. I've expressed doubts in class. And I would want people to be comfortable with doing that. I kind of mentioned how, like, in some of my experiences with seminary, a lot of times we would just stop the lesson altogether. Right. And just start answering questions and having a conversation. I think sometimes that's very effective. Sometimes maybe not so much because it takes the focus off of maybe something, you know, that was the real focus for the day. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] It's messy. It's messy. And I appreciate your answers.

Jaxon Washburn [01:09:55] There's a time and a place for things, and so it's hard for me to kind of give.

John Dehlin [01:09:59] And I agree that an organization needs to be able to have limits and set boundaries or it's not really an organization. Organization or community? A community or an organization without boundaries is not a community. It's not an organization. So I understand that it's just difficult. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. thank you very much.

Joseph Smith's Polygamy and Historical Challenges

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 850

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Let me ask you about Joseph Smith's first vision. A lot of people are troubled by the different. And you don't have to give long answers. You can give us the short answer first, and then if I want to dig deeper, you can, because there's a lot of classic apologetic answers to these questions, these dilemmas. With Joseph Smith's first vision and the varying accounts, what's the category of your reconciliation of that problem?

Jaxon Washburn [00:01:08] Well, I'm personally fine with an amount of ambiguity as to what actually happened. So, yeah, we do have the 1838 canonized account. Right. But I'm not opposed just because I accept scriptures like the Bible and. And other texts within Mormonism. I'm not opposed at looking at stories or events for inspiration, but also understanding that there can be differences in those accounts. So, like, this isn't exactly analogous to the first vision, but within Mormonism, within the standard works, or within our LDS experience, we have four different accounts of the creation narrative. We have one in Genesis. Arguably, there's two in Genesis, but, you know, there's one in Genesis, there's one in the Book of Abraham, there's one in Moses, and then there's one in the temple as well. All of them have different details and have different takes. Some of them have elements that contradict other ones. And yet we are okay having all of those in the same, you know, within the same faith and approaching all of them and kind of drawing from all of them. So I would say in. In a way, that's how I go about with Joseph's experience as well. Like, I do believe that he had an experience with the divinity, with deity in the Grove. I feel like the emphasis or kind of the takeaways from that experience changed for him throughout his life, where early on it was more a matter of personal repentance, and then later there was more of an emphasis or focus on authority once kind of the church had been established, you know, and there's ways we could talk about how memory works and things like that. But I'm not uncomfortable with the different accounts, but I don't seek to make them fit or align, if that makes sense. Like I don't feel the need to have them all line up and not contradict each other. I'm comfortable with certain elements being contradictory or not feeling like they can fit all the way because I'm comfortable with other, you know, accepting other things in my faith as well that, you know, doesn't align in a perfect way either. I can certainly say I've had powerful spiritual experiences that while they're certainly not theophanies. Right. You know, they. The way I think about them and would write about them now is very much dependent on my individual experience now. And it would be different than how I would write about them when I was 14 years old or, you know, 12 years old or something like that. You know, they've kind of developed. And it's not that I'm lying now or I'm deceptive, deceiving now when I talk about them or, you know, that I was when I was 14 or 12 or, you know, whatever, it's just I communicate them differently. Certain elements change and certainly different ways. I remember them in certain ways too. So I'm not uncomfortable with different first vision accounts. At least that's what I'll say.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Okay, how about the idea that. The witnesses to the Book of Mormon weren't super credible, that they followed James Strang and you know, some talked about, you know, experiencing things with their spiritual eyes. What do you make of the credibility of the witnesses versus those who would say they really don't. Their credibility really doesn't support the restoration narrative?

Jaxon Washburn [00:04:58] Yeah, well, it is kind of an individual case with each one because I would certainly hold some as more credible than others. Maybe. But yeah, I mean, I believe the witnesses, I don't know that their testimonies of what took place are like the only reason that I believe in the existence of gold plates. But certainly the fact that there's individuals who step forward who, who have claimed to see an angel that Joseph Smith had appear to them, claimed to feel the plates. Even beyond the witnesses too. There's quite a few. I generally would accept them. Again, that's not the sole reason why I accept it, but certainly it gives me more comfort than just taking it on Joseph's word alone because at least then I can take it on other individuals words as well. So, you know, you could certainly say that Martin Harris was maybe wishy washy throughout his life or things like that. And I think there's.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] And the Whitmer brothers, the fact that they would testify that James Strang's scripture that he produced was also scripture. Doesn't that for you? Call it the question. Also, you've got Oliver Cowdery testifying that Joseph Smith committed adultery. You've got Sidney Rigdon parting from Brigham Young and going in a very different direction.

Jaxon Washburn [00:06:37] It's definitely very complex. Right. And so, again, like, I see these individuals as following, you know, or living what they thought was definitely true. In the case of James Strang, I think there was a certain point in time when an individual who was one of his witnesses just owned up to the fact that it was fraudulent or whatever. I do know that most of the Smith family stayed behind with James Strang or at least Lucy Max Smith and some other early witnesses. Did they sign affidavits that Strang was the rightful successor or something like that? Yeah, I don't know. Something like that. Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Here's a way to ask the question. If Oliver Cowdery is credible as a witness to the Book of Mormon, is he credible when he says Joseph Smith was an adulterer?

Jaxon Washburn [00:07:30] I certainly believe that he thought that Joseph Smith was an adulterer, and that's something that he struggled with. And whether or not Joseph Smith was committing adultery, I think is up for debate. It wouldn't be corrosive to my view of him as a prophet if indeed some of his relationships were inappropriate. Right. And so I make room for that. I actually think Joseph Smith did make mistakes when it comes to polygamy. I'm not opposed to polygamy per se, but definitely the way that it was carried out and the way that, you know, hiding it from Emma and stuff like that, that's not something that I feel I should be defending or should be defended. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] So do you see polygamy as a mistake, one of those mistakes that you mentioned previously?

Jaxon Washburn [00:08:18] I'm open to the idea that it was legitimate and revealed of God.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] Are you open to the idea that it was a mistake?

Jaxon Washburn [00:08:27] Yeah, I mean, I could be. That's not where I'm at. But if it turns out.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] Where are you in terms of your belief in polygamy?

Jaxon Washburn [00:08:37] I. I do believe that it was commanded, and I just think the execution was terrible and that it wasn't practiced in a way that was always the best.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] So you still believe in DNC132?

Jaxon Washburn [00:08:53] Yeah, I would say so. I kind of. I couldn't.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] And you don't see polygamy as just fundamentally sexist and disrespectful to women and corrosive to society?

Jaxon Washburn [00:09:05] Mm. Corrosive to society. I think, I think that could be. That could be argued. I think polygamy is definitely one of those institutions that's easy and susceptible to abuse. But earlier when I was talking about, like, my views on marriage and how they're kind of libertarian, like when you have consenting individuals who want to enter into relationships, I don't see it as my place to be like, you know, you can and you can't. I'm just living my life. Right. But so if it's, if it's consensual, you know, if a woman is okay with it, if we could do a do over of polygamy, I wouldn't want polygamy not to have happened necessarily. Like, it's not polygamy. That's the problem. It's just how it was lived out and executed.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Okay. Well, many people do see it as deeply problematic, but it's reasonable for you to feel differently. Obviously. Certainly you feel like the pressure on underage girls and the pressure on parents to give their children to Joseph. The polyandry where Joseph's marrying other men's wives, are those problems for you?

Jaxon Washburn [00:10:19] Like I said, I think the execution was at times pretty messy, especially when Joseph was hiding it from Emma. I would have liked to see things go otherwise in terms of how we interpret these marriages or ceilings. Right. Some people go about it in more of a dynastic sense. I think sealing power is actually can be pretty dynamic. So I'm not opposed actually to sealing power really being used to seal individuals together. Not in the same manner as Joseph necessarily did. But I don't see Joseph as using polygamy for purely sexual reasons. I'm not someone who is closed off to the idea that sex was involved in polygamy. I just don't think that was the focus. I like Richard Bushman's kind of take that, and this is kind of a paraphrase, but Joseph Smith didn't lust so much after women as he lusted after kin. Like, I see these marriages and I see these, like, connections between families being formed as something that would practice. Right. Has a potential to bring people closer together, you know, in kind of meaningful, symbolic ways. But certainly when there's pressure involved or so what.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] So like with polyandry, why was he marrying other men's wives versus marrying other men and their wives? Why was he just marrying the wives who were already married?

Jaxon Washburn [00:11:52] Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think Joseph was pretty much the only one that did polyandry in early Mormon history. I can't think of any other apostles or leaders that practice that as well. So, you know, it's a big question mark for you. Yeah. So, you know, for the most part it's a question mark and it's something that I'm still enjoying reading about and kind of getting more familiar with.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] So why in your, your mind, why underage girls?

Jaxon Washburn [00:12:21] The underage thing isn't so much a problem for me because it wasn't considered underage at the time necessarily.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] I think it was. I think it was. I think 14, 15 year olds was underage for a 30 whatever year old man.

Jaxon Washburn [00:12:34] Maybe socially, but legally I don't think it was because in that same year, and maybe it varied by state as well, but Edgar Allan poe married his 14 year old cousin in pretty much the same year. So I think definitely it was the exception, but with parental permission, as in the case of Heber C. Kimball's daughter. You know, there's certain ways that you could go about it to where it wasn't illegal, right?

John Dehlin [00:13:03] I wasn't saying illegal. I was saying sort of like viewed as viewed as, you know, weird or strange. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:13:10] No, I certainly.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] What about Joseph entering into a relationship with Fanny Alger before the sealing power was even given?

Jaxon Washburn [00:13:19] Yeah, see that's something that I have an issue with and that I think was a bad move on Joseph's part. You know, I don't necessarily claim to know the full history behind all that. I'm really enjoying Lindsay Hansen Park's podcast Year of Polygamy and you know, reading, reading different things up on polygamy. But certainly I think that's one of those messier elements that is especially when Emma felt so betrayed by it that if it ended up being something that was adulterous in nature or wasn't executed in the right way, I'm not opposed to that possibility. Again, it's kind of a question mark for me right now.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] And don't you agree that Emma wasn't sealed to Joseph until like his 20 something wife? Like even the DNC says that the first wife with the law of Sarah needs to approve subsequent wives. So in some sense Joseph was disobeying his own revelation, Right?

Jaxon Washburn [00:14:22] Yeah, a lot of it was really messy. It's a mess. Most of it is a mess.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] Right, okay, so you think that was wrong for Joseph to lie to Emma and to wait until she's like the 22nd wife to actually get sealed to her with 21 other wives being secretly married to before his actual first wife? Doesn't that seem kind of insulting?

Jaxon Washburn [00:14:45] Yeah, no, it certainly seems like I said, like it wasn't executed in an ideal way, if that was even supposed to take place.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Okay, okay, that's fair. I appreciate you taking kind of those hard, those hard questions.

Jaxon Washburn [00:15:00] Yeah. If I can elaborate a little bit on DNC132, just textually, that revelation stands out differently than a lot of other revelations do. And the fact that the version we have in our canon for 132 is pretty much the exact same version, I believe, that was initially written down. Most of the other revelations in Doctrine and Covenants were kind of edited or redacted or kind of cleaned up a little bit. Like, you know, Joseph would take several days with them to kind of refine them or polish them before, you know, bringing them forth to the saints. And I think the version we have for 132 is in kind of an unpolished version. So that document stands apart from other documents in the Doctrine and Covenants in the sense that it didn't undergo the same type of refinement. So part of me has to wonder, like, I certainly don't see it as directly applicable to my life today, but I have to wonder just how much of it was legitimate, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] Yeah. Some people, you use the term messy to describe Joseph's implementation of polygamy, you know, Miles notes. And others would, I was feeling this too messy. Seems like kind of like a euphemism, a nice way to describe it. Some would describe it as abusive or deceitful. Right. You know, the fact that these little 14 year old girls are told, accept my offer for eternal marriage now or, you know, you and your family will lose eternal blessings. The disparity in power between Joseph and these little teenage girls, even DNC132, where he's telling Emma she'll be damned right immediately if she doesn't accept polygamy. That's not just, you know, or just marrying other men's wives and sending men to foreign countries and then propositioning their wives. That's not just messy in today's standards. That would be scandalous, it would be heinous, it would be horrendous, abusive, et cetera.

Jaxon Washburn [00:17:23] It would be flds.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Yeah. So I mean, can you do a little processing about why you're just calling it messy when if I did those things, you would call me disgusting and abominable and egregious and, you know, way worse adjectives. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:17:40] Yeah. Well, first off, like the, his. The history itself sometimes is messy. I mean, just in terms of the particulars In a lot of these, there's disagreement between scholars who are knowledgeable on polygamy, on how it was exactly practiced. I mean, you're gonna. You're going to find Carolyn Pearson disagreeing with Brian Hales disagreeing with Lindsay Hansen Park. You know, like, individuals who have read a lot of the same documents are going to make different conclusions on it. And so the history itself isn't always clear as to what is taking place and how these people are seeing it. I generally enjoy, or I generally just make an effort to really highlight the voices of the individuals in question. So when I can. When we are discussing whether or not abuse is taking place, are the individuals themselves viewing it as abusive? So, like the plural wives themselves, you know, what. What are their voices saying? Let's have them speak for themselves to kind of get some insight as to how they're feeling. And I think that doesn't always paint as awful as a picture as sometimes it appears to be.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:18:50] So in the case of Heber C. Kimball's daughter, her memoirs and her writings on polygamy and plural marriage stayed fairly favorable. And, you know, like a lot of these individuals that we might want to label as victims later in life didn't label themselves as victims either. You know, so I'm not saying that to say that there was no harm done in the first place, but. But certainly I think their voices are worth listening to and kind of taking as part of the equation when we are discussing how much pressure was actually on them. Was it inappropriate? Did they feel abused? Was there abuse? You know, it's. That's what I mean by messy. There's a lot of ways we can approach these things. There's a lot of different perspectives, and there's a lot of data to kind of make sense of it all. And not all the times is the data in full agreement either, you know, because you have contradictory voices in that same period who interpret the same events differently or recall things in different ways. So that's what I mean by messy. I'm not. I'm not using it as necessarily euphemism for something that I'm just putting on the shelf. And, you know, I'm just gonna ignore. Like. Like I said, I'm actively reading about this stuff so I can get, you know, better clarity on it, because I'll be the first to recognize that I'm definitely not an authority on these matters. So if there's any. If the way that I explain my current thinking, I recognize, you know, there's room for development, and I'M looking for that development and so, yeah, it's a process.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] I think that's super mature and thoughtful of you and I applaud it. What about Joseph's destruction of the printing press? Do you sort of think that was a mistake?

Jaxon Washburn [00:20:46] Yeah, again, this is another point where people make the argument that he was either justified or not justified. I mean, certainly the justification he gave was that the Mormon Expositor, you know, is disturbing the peace. And I've read that edition of the Mormon Expositor because we do have like some type of record of what it said in that first edition. I think it was the only edition that was ever printed. But yeah, so I, I'm not opposed to the idea that that was an abuse of power on Joseph's part, which is all too possible when you're setting up kind of a democratic theocracy. There's aspects of Joseph's governance in the Nauvoo period that I absolutely love. The Council of 50, the new documents that have come forth from that and the way that scholars are able to access them, there's some great stuff in there that I absolutely love. And that was very refreshing to see in that council. Joseph going out of his way to include non Mormons as part of it and to make sure their voices are included to stand up for religious liberty, things like that. There's some great stuff that goes on at the same time, you know, if part of the destroying the printing press was an abuse of his power, I certainly recognize that, like it was by destroying the press that Joseph ended up in Carthage in the first place. That that was like the main, one of the main reasons. And so I kind of pushed back against the narrative that he was imprisoned solely on the basis of religious belief. You know, I think the persecution for persecution, right? Yeah, like I think some of the persecution that took place in that time was self inflicted, you know, by mistakes that Joseph made. Certainly I think people were religiously antagonistic towards Mormons and on the basis of belief did persecute them. But at the same time, you know, there's a lot more complexity than just writing it off as fully religious persecution. So yeah, part of Joseph being in Carthage, I think was partly his own fault.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] Yeah, I appreciate that perspective. Let's turn to Book of Mormon. You know, in your mind, you know, were gold plates delivered by an angel to Joseph Smith?

Book of Mormon Historicity and Loan Shifting

Jaxon Washburn [00:23:26] I would believe that.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] And the characters like Moroni and Mormon and Helaman and Nephi, were they actual historical figures that lived, you know, somewhere in the Americas between 600 B.C. and 400 A.D. yeah.

Jaxon Washburn [00:23:43] I would hold to Book of Mormon historicity.

John Dehlin [00:23:46] Okay. And then, so how do you. How do you think about anachronisms?

Jaxon Washburn [00:23:53] So I recently listened to your podcast interview with Brant Gardner a while back, and have you heard the one with

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Michael Ko before you talk about Brent Gardner?

Jaxon Washburn [00:24:06] He's the Yale professor. Yeah, yep, I read that, and I read Sorensen's response to that, and I've done quite a bit of back and forth on Book of Mormon historicity in general between farms and, you know, those who critique Book of Mormon historicity. So I don't think there's. I wouldn't say there's a smoking gun against Book of Mormon historicity, but there's certainly nothing that I can point to and be like, you know, this definitively proves that the Book of Mormon is historical. I recognize there's elements that I hold to a functional translation rather than a literal translation. So functional in the sense that when I was talking about revelation earlier, like, Joseph is very much interjecting his own voice in the narrative as well, or expressing it in language that he's familiar with. I mean, certainly, you know, you have the presence of the King James Bible in there, and certainly you can point to similarities in kind of sermons or speeches from. From, let's say, King Benjamin, different revivalist preachers in Joseph's same area. You know, there's certain elements that are 19th century, but there's other ones too that I think speak towards historicity. So I hold to kind of a functional model of the translation where it is based in a historical record, it is based in the history, but the translation itself includes influence from Joseph smith and includes 19th century elements as well.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] So how does that square with the idea that he would see the words written while he was looking in the hat and then he would say what he read and then those things would be written down. Also, if he can create Kurlam and Kubamom, which are words that had no

Jaxon Washburn [00:25:58] meaning, we don't know.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] Yeah, how can it be both that he was reading the words and dictating them and that he was adding in all his own cultural artifacts and influences?

Jaxon Washburn [00:26:13] As far as that quote goes, I think the only source that we get that from might be from one of the Whitmers. And it's not that I don't trust that. It's just that I don't know how he became pertinent to that information in the first place. I don't think he ever says that. You have a lot of people, I guess, describing what happened in the translation process. Right. But Joseph himself, the only thing he ever says on the matter is that it took place by the gift and power of God. Right. And so in all these different models, even my model for how I kind of make sense of it and how it took place, like, I recognize I'm not in the hat with Joseph. I'm not there, you know, experiencing that process with him. And so I can't speak authoritatively as to what took place. I'm only expressing what appears to take place. And so I hold similar views to, like, Brant Gardner or Blake Ostler or, you know, I think most Mormon apologists would, where it is both ways, and it's not necessarily problematic because that's just reflective on the revelatory experience in the first place.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] So you're saying sometimes he read words and dictated, and then other times he just sort of channeled it, maybe.

Jaxon Washburn [00:27:25] I mean, I don't know as the particulars, and I don't know if any of us can really know. I don't know if I'm correct. If David Whitmer was the one who described it in that way. I don't know if he fully knew. All we know, really is just that Joseph said it took place by the gift and power of God. And so as far as the rest of it goes, we can make propositions based off what appears in the text and what appears to be taking place. So, yeah, I mean, I see elements that look ancient. I see elements that I recognize as, like, 19th century influence, and it's not necessarily problematic. So, yeah, I would just recommend listening to Brant Gardner's podcast again for anyone who wants a better sense of what I'm talking about, because he definitely expressed it better than I can.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] So if somebody were to say, Jackson, that you're basically saying the witnesses are credible when they support a story or a narrative that matches what the church kind of is wanting people to believe. But as soon as the witnesses support a narrative that's different, then we tend to want to discard their narrative. So, again, if it was David Whitmer, you're saying he's a reliable witness when it comes to testifying that the plates, you know, existed. But if David Whitmer says, I don't remember Joseph Smith ever restoring a Melchizedek priesthood, or if Martin Harris follows the strings, or if David Whitmer says, well, he dictated what he saw in the hat, can you acknowledge that you're kind of picking and choosing the statements from the witnesses that match the story you want told and kind of being willing to dismiss them when they don't match the story you want to be told.

Jaxon Washburn [00:29:18] Yeah, I'd like to see it as I'm taking it more on a case by case basis because the reason I am comfortable kind of relying on the joint testimonies of individuals who say they held the plates physically or saw an angel and they describe a lot of the same, you know, they describe the same thing personally happening to them. That's one thing. I think David Whitmer or whoever gave that quote saying that this is what Joseph saw in the hat. I don't know if he was there to witness that. You know what I'm saying? The reason Joseph's face is in the hat is because it's him alone that's seeing this. So if anything, at best one would have to take that as a secondhand account that David Whitmer got from Joseph describing how that took place. That's not David Whitmer seeing that himself. All he's seeing is, you know, if he's there is poop, you know, facing the hat. So, yeah, I mean, I don't personally feel like I am cherry picking, if that makes sense. And. But I can certainly see how individuals might see that when it comes to things about like Melchizedek priesthood or things like that. Did you say someone in particular claims that they didn't? Was that David Whitmer as well?

John Dehlin [00:30:39] My understanding is that David Whitmer produced a pamphlet after he sort of parted ways and basically said by 1838, Joseph was like introducing things into his narrative when his authority was being challenged that he never talked about prior. So there's a reason why we don't have a date for the Melchizedek priesthood. It's because it was never talked about until, you know, as I understand it, around 1838 when Joseph's authority was being questioned. And so, you know, David Whitmer saying Joseph is making this up later, that was never a part of the original restoration. You know, we don't pay it. We don't, you know, faithful Mormons now, you know, they're willing to accept David Whitmer's testimony that he saw the plates, but reject his perspective that, that Joseph was introducing teachings afterwards that were never really a part of it to begin with. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:31:36] And I think, I think for the most part individuals would probably do that just because they're seeing David come at things from an antagonistic viewpoint because he is trying to discredit Joseph at that time with that pamphlet you're talking about in terms of his. His veracity as a prophet, or. I think at that time, he's. He's trying to say that Joseph has fallen, you know, So I think individuals are, at least from the church, they either write him off because of that, or at least they're. They're hesitant to put a lot of weight on what he's saying because of that. So, yeah, I mean, I don't have a definitive answer to that, but.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Okay, that's cool. So when the Book of Mormon mentions horses, what do you think it's saying there?

Jaxon Washburn [00:32:25] You know, I'm not opposed to loan shifting, and I actually don't see loan shifting as a shoddy, apologetic sleight of hand.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] Tell us what that means.

Jaxon Washburn [00:32:33] Loan shifting is essentially individuals who. From one culture, when they enter into another culture and they see something, they attribute a name to that object or subject that's already familiar to them. So we see this happening with the Greeks when they see hippopotami. Hippopotamuses, I don't know what the plural for that would be, you know, but essentially calling them river horses. You know, we know hippopotamus isn't a river horse to the Greeks. They were using the language the best of their ability to express what it was. And so, you know, you have. You have calling bison buffalo. You have the conquistadors calling buffalo or bison as, like, cows vacca. So this is something that happens. And I think there is a strong case to be put forward that it could be happening in the Book of Mormon. So I don't see it. Like, I'm totally willing to call out shoddy, apologetic arguments. I don't see this one as shoddy. I think it has some substance to it and it should be taken into the equation.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] So wheat and steel and swords and helmets and chariots and all that stuff. Do you basically just say that's all loan shifting?

Jaxon Washburn [00:34:01] I think it depends. So much of these are particular to the instance that we're talking about, too. I mean, horses aren't talked about a whole lot in the Book of Mormon. Neither is steel. And chariots only have, like, two mentions, once in an Isaiah chapter and another, I think, with King Laman, or Lamoni, whatever his name is.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Well, if an ipod was mentioned in the Book of Mormon text, we'd know it was false.

Jaxon Washburn [00:34:28] Yeah, no, yeah, that would certainly be shifty. But some of these. Some of these things we have seen evidence for in Mesoamerica, others are still pretty up in the air. So I think it's just a more complex conversation than Whether or not it was there. And there's, I think FARMS has done some good work on kind of making a case for why these things are not as black and white as we might sometimes want them to be. Like, even though it'd be great to see horses, there's not horses. Okay, what could that maybe be meaning? I guess what I'm saying is like, in my view of the Book of Mormon in general, it's not problematic to me, and I'm not opposed to the idea that this is something that could be discovered in the future or that was just inserted either as loan shifting by the ancient authors, or is Joseph influencing the text more than. Maybe even I hold.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] So just to kind of cut to the chase, that'll probably address a lot of issues. Yes, we could take anachronisms and deal with it, or we could take DNA and deal with it, or we could take the lack of archaeological evidence, the bones and the remains that we're just now finding in North America or even Central America or geography or the remnants of language, or again, the archaeological evidence that would support it. But then also you've got the fact that the Book of Abraham wasn't translated, apparently correctly. You've got the DNA evidence problem with the Book of Mormon. You have to admit, Jackson, that if you. That yes, we could debate in isolation any one of these issues, but if you add them all in aggregate, plus the fact that so much of the Book of Mormon was taken from the, from the Bible, the New Testament, the Old Testament, so many of the errors that were in versions of the Bible that Joseph Smith had access to those errors appear in the Book of Mormon. Stuff from Isaiah was being quoted that hadn't even happened yet. That was out of time sync. You know, can you acknowledge that when you add all this evidence together, that the Book of Mormon is deeply problematic as a historical document?

Jaxon Washburn [00:36:56] Yeah, I think certainly. And I'm speaking from my own experience, right. So I recognize that individuals, when they see this whole mass of criticisms or problems or things like that, things that don't make sense, it can be overwhelming. And for many people, it is the more rational direction to not continue believing in it. Right. And so, you know, I recognize that. I want to validate that. I just, I would just encourage individuals to, in looking at this aggregate mass, right. Be willing to go through each one and see, you know, kind of the different voices and really just whatever speaks to you and whatever makes sense to you. Right? Whatever seems plausible and where the evidence leads you. That's what I would say. You Know, you should. I'm fine with individuals ending up with. So this is just where I'm at, right. I do just like I recognize 19th century elements, I'm recognizing the things that you're saying. I recognize like things that appear ancient in origin or have some type of basis in the ancient world. I mean, I just wrote a final paper for one of my religion classes that was kind of viewing parts of first Nephi and putting it in, in context with the ancient world. And you know, there, I guess what I'll say is while there are things that make me kind of like, you know, raise my eyebrow and be like, you know, what the heck, like that doesn't make full sense. There's other things where I'm like, wow, that actually makes a lot of sense, you know, and it seems to fit very well. So at the end of the day, when I combine the things that are that appear to be very surprising that I wouldn't expect the Book of Mormon to have in terms of accuracy, then other ones that seem to be a little bit off. This is just how I make sense of it all. I just move forward in this direction. So, you know, I recognize it. You know, it's very complex. It takes a lot of time to think through and my conclusions aren't the same as other individuals conclusions.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] So I appreciate that. I get that, you know, and I guess I just think it's important to recognize that it's not, I think. Are you willing to acknowledge that there are likely social and, you know, psychological forces that make you feel like it's very advantageous to maintain your belief and so regardless of the evidence that's heaped up, your desire and your social context, in many ways just really, you know, makes you feel like you want to believe. And so you are going to just do a real sort of, you're going to put a real weight into this sort of sense of confirmation bias where you are going to, whether intentionally or unintentionally, dismiss the evidence against the Book of Mormon and give more weight to the evidence in support of the Book of Mormon? Because in the end that's the conclusion that you want to arrive at. Are you willing to acknowledge that that's likely, you know, a good heavy sense of influence on the conclusion you've arrived at?

Jaxon Washburn [00:40:40] Yeah, I mean, I would be wrong if I did, if I said I was free of confirmation bias or if I was free of, you know, a lot of these psychological or social factors that you kind of put into the equation. I think no one is free of things like that. So I do factor that into the equation, and I try and counter that by actively challenging different aspects of my belief and remaining open to dialogue and continuing this process. Like I say or I've said before, I recognize this as a journey, as a development. So where I'm at now isn't necessarily where I will be at down the road. And I recognize that. And so that's the best that I can do to kind of help myself in this process. Be free of. Not necessarily be free, but do my best to avoid just giving in to social expectations or things like that. Because, you know, if I did and if I really did want things to be all cozy and comfortable, I wouldn't be talking to you. I wouldn't be reading a lot of things. You know, I wouldn't continue this journey and still recognize that I'm not yet at the. At the final destination. So I think that's. That's the best thing I can do. And again, I just want to emphasize that, like, I'm being personally authentic to what I feel, where I feel I'm at at the moment, you know, in terms of rational belief and spiritual experience and how they meld together like that. My identity is determined by what I've experienced and kind of the way I've thought about these things. And I recognize just that that could change in the future. So, you know, that's the best I can do, you know, So I just ask for charity from individuals who might be looking into this process. Because I'm 19 years old, and a lot of individuals who I've spoken to that have gone through crises of faith, it happens to them in their 30s or 40s or, you know, after decades of maybe wrestling with these questions. So I definitely don't want to come across to some spunky little apologist kid who thinks he has the world all figured out, you know, that's not my intention, and I'm just trying to do my best with what I have and be authentic with myself. And, you know, I recognize I'm on a journey, too. So hopefully when individuals listen to even this interview, you know, they can. They can recognize that and make room for my views to change in the future if such takes place.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] I love it. And that's why I think you deserve so much respect and kudos and credit for being willing to face these questions, to face such scrutiny, especially at such a young age and with so many with an audience that would be inclined to attack and dismiss and deride what you're doing. So I appreciate you taking the Tough questions. And your sincerity and openness and humility as well.

Jaxon Washburn [00:43:41] Thank you.

Book of Abraham and Spiritual Foundations of Belief

John Dehlin [00:43:42] Okay, so I assume that with Book of Abraham, it's this idea that he wasn't really translating, but instead he was channeling inspiration but not really translating. Is that kind of how you view

Jaxon Washburn [00:43:55] the Book of Abraham? I mean, really, the two main schools of thought that I think most LDS scholars have nowadays is either one along the lines of like a catalyst theory that the papyri served as a catalyst for revelation, or some that hold to the belief of extra room on the missing scroll. I've kind of. I've read up on the debate on whether or not there was. There was, you know, sufficient room for a legitimate Book of Abraham text to be on the scroll. There's a back and forth between John Gee and some individuals who published an article in dialogue. A lot of it is just much too mathematical for me. So I do kind of closet that because I just don't know, you know, I'm not good enough to figure out these calculations or verify them or, you know, I don't have enough training to really feel confident in determining who's right and that. So I would lean towards a catalyst theory, if anything, you know, so that. But this is definitely something that's in development. I got John Geese latest book, Introduction to the Book of Abraham, for my birthday, and I read it, and I was a little bit underwhelmed by it, to be honest. A little bit disappointed. I was hoping for a little bit more meat in it, and I guess I should have taken the title a little bit more seriously at An Introduction because it truly is an introduction. And, you know, while it is concise and kind of show, you know, deals with a lot of the complexities, it doesn't offer any definitive arguments that I feel can be used to further the conversation. It's just a good overview. So, yeah, still figuring that out. Still thinking about that. And I think a lot of the LDS scholarly community at large is still grappling with the complexities of history and, you know, some of this data. So I'm, you know, just continuing with that too.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] I really. I really appreciate your candor there as well. So thank you. Okay. Any other kind of major, you know, truth claim sort of issues that you've studied that you want to kind of take a position on? Do we cover most of the big ones?

Jaxon Washburn [00:46:08] Yeah, I mean, we covered most the big ones. Just kind of how I approach scripture and revelation and things like that. I can say things that I find very appealing in Mormonism is that at least in my experience, I feel like I can find and include elements of other faiths that I think are true and that bring meaning to my life. And I can include that as part of my Mormon experience. And, you know, I've never gotten pushback from members of the church. Actually, wait, there was one very weird person online who said I shouldn't be doing interfaith type stuff who said he was a member of. That's the only individual I've ever gotten pushback about interfaith stuff with. My interfaith experiences have been very enriching for me. It's actually one of the times I feel the spirit most is in settings of interfaith where multiple religions are gathered together in harmony and things like that. That's really when I feel God's love a lot. As far as Mormon truth claims, I think we covered the main ones in terms of restoration and some of the unique doctrines. I'll just reiterate. I really like the idea of theosis or Mormon exaltation, and I really find the unique Mormon understanding of the ontology of God and man to be very, very appealing to me. So there's elements that I would approach in a, maybe a Terrell Givens way where it's just the fact that I find beauty in them, that I choose to incorporate them as part of my life and identity, you know, or that I could. I feel like I can rally around that. So there's definitely elements of Mormonism that I find immense beauty in, and that's why I rally around it.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] Yeah. Your testimony is based on what? I haven't even asked you that yet. Have you had spiritual experiences or prayer?

Jaxon Washburn [00:48:10] I have. I have. I've never had a singular experience where, you know, in a Joseph Smith type way, or maybe a standard member type way where, you know, I ask if the church is true, and I just get this overwhelming feeling that I can never shake, you know, or. It's always. It's always just been progressive. It's always been a developmental experience where as I feel, as I read more, as I wrestle with these problems more, eventually, one by one, I felt kind of a sense of comfort or peace with them where they're not as front and center anymore, but instead I feel like I'm able to adopt a perspective that I'm comfortable with, I am authentic with, and that makes sense to me. And so really, my testimony has been won over by lots of study and lots of contemplation and just kind of thinking about these issues. And so it's been a Rational process. It has been a spiritual process. I have had certain experiences which have really changed the way that I see things that have, that have colored the lenses that I see the world through that are kind of distinctly Mormon in nature. And I can't really help but have those experiences change the way that I, that I, that I see the world. You know, they act as kind of filters or lenses. I would shake them if I could. But the fact is, you know, I've experienced it and you know, I'm just inviting more experience so I can see, continue to, to see things in different ways. So yeah, it's based off spiritual experiences, it's based off me thinking about it a lot. But there's never been a singular time where I felt my testimony confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] One of the biggest questions you got from our listeners was this idea of basing religious beliefs on feelings is just not at face value reliable. Because everyone who believes any religious system bases their beliefs on feelings. And feelings apparently can lead two different people in two different directions that are opposing and non reconcilable. So people just want to ask you, how are feelings a reliable basis for any sort of belief? Really?

Jaxon Washburn [00:50:51] Yeah, that's a good question. I talk about these experiences I've had and how I can't help but have them kind of serve as lenses for how I see things. And you know, that's something that isn't so much on feelings, but in terms of experiences. I would kind of flip the question back at an individual who might see feelings or experiences as not as something we should be wary of, because many people, it's when their shelf breaks that they feel validation for leaving Mormonism, you know, either in spiritual or rational ways. Right. I see, at least for my testimony. I don't base my testimony just on feelings. And I don't think just feelings or just spiritual experiences necessarily is a full epistemic model that an individual can use to arrive at absolute truth. That seems to kind of be synonymous with fideism, which I do recognize is not a reliable model. That's why, at least in my experience, I've gone out of my way to make sure I'm studying. But then I'm also engaging in a spiritual manner. So it's both a spiritual and a rational process for me, rather than just a fully emotional or feelings based process. And you'll notice too, like, still, when it comes to affirmations of religious belief, I'm not claiming to have absolute knowledge on a lot of these matters. I'm still leaving a lot of things up in the air ultimately to where I make room that I could be indeed wrong. You know, that's why I think the best thing that any of us can do is just live our lives based off the knowledge we have and be open to, you know, our changing views in terms of rational and spiritual approaches, these things. I do believe that spirituality is kind of inherent in human beings. I don't think that's something that we can shake. I don't think the religious impulse in humanity is something that any of us can transcend. And so I think that even for individuals who claim to have left religion altogether and are the staunchest of atheists or kind of logical positivists, right. I still feel, I still think that religious impulses, the religious instinct is something that's inherent in the human experience and that's still going to affect us whether or not we recognize that. But that becomes more of a religious studies or a philosophy type question than something I can completely answer within my Mormon faith. But I do feel comfortable with my approach. At the end of the day, I just feel like I'm going about life in an honest manner as I can. You know, I'm open to spirituality. I am, you know, making a rational effort to figure things out. And I'm just trying to approach my human experience in the most human way possible. And so I'm not going to close myself off to something that's been very natural and consistent with humanity, which is religious or spiritual engagement and experience. If I, just for the sake of wanting to not be biased, wrote off my experiences, my spiritual or religious experiences, I would feel not authentic doing that. I would feel like I wouldn't be doing my, you know, I wouldn't be doing myself a favor by doing that. I would feel less of Jackson than, you know, Foley Jackson, you know, so these are just things that I can't personally help but who have experienced and have currently cloud or kind of shade my own perspective on things, you know, I don't think, I'm not claiming to be using these things to establish like scientific principles or things like that. Right. I think the scientific method is good for, for matters of science. When it comes to spirituality, though, that's just much more subjective and I don't think it should be written off completely. But at the same time, I think it should be coupled with a rational effort on the part of the individual.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] I think that was a beautiful and sophisticated way to conclude this segment. So I just want to applaud you for it. Thank you because it shows a level of sophistication and grace and thoughtfulness that I think most of us don't have, let alone as a 19 year old. So I'm gonna do something that I really don't wanna do, but it's just the right place to do it. That's where we should end the interview for this segment and then start a new one. But there's a couple follow up questions people asked about Book of Abraham. I just wanna quickly run that by you before we end this portion. So Mark writes that written by this is about the Book of Abraham. Written by Abraham's own hand does not conform with the Catalyst theory. Miles writes, the Catalyst theory falls flat when you realize the revelation literally references the diagrams. And then Rex writes that even some of the most conservative Bible scholars doubt that Abraham ever existed. How can the Catalyst Theory be true? And the claim that Joseph Smith made that the fire was written by Abraham's own hand.

Jaxon Washburn [00:56:37] Well, I think pseudepigrapha plays into it. And this is something that Richard Bushman mentioned recently at a conference that was held at, I think it was like Utah State. Yeah, Utah State, you know, so again, I'm not trying to make an effort.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] Meaning Joseph falsely attributed to Abraham. Is that what you're saying?

Jaxon Washburn [00:56:59] Either that or the inspiration. Yeah, I'm comfortable with that. I'm not opposed to accepting pseudepigrapha as part of my scriptural canon. I think I've already accepted pseudepigrapha in the form of different parts of the Bible that are attributed to certain individuals, but in fact were written by other individuals. I'm not opposed to that. So that's not problematic to me.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] What about Joseph actually trying to translate the diagrams, the facsimiles, and all the mistranslations of the facsimile that pretty much ties Joseph to the actual text of the papyrus, right?

Jaxon Washburn [00:57:37] Yeah. No, I'm certainly not denying that with the facsimiles that he didn't believe that he was translating them. The issue is what kind of translation are we talking about Joseph doing in the first place? Because I don't think there was ever a day where Joseph did a translation, at least within Mormon history, that was truly a translation in the conventional sense. The Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, the translation of the Bible, all of these instances where we use the word translation, they're used in a sense that no one ever uses the word translation in. You know, so it's just so ambiguous and up in the air that I don't Think treating the Book of Abraham as a direct translation in the same manner maybe as the Book of Mormon is the right way to go. Because, I mean, Joseph was just all over the place with, you know, when he was using the word translation. There's a lot of ambiguity.

John Dehlin [00:58:39] I can understand that. And I hope you would agree that Joseph clearly thought that he was translating. And when he said translating, he thought he meant translating.

Jaxon Washburn [00:58:51] And so in a conventional sense.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] Well, I mean, yeah, he's basically telling people he could read Egyptian and that he's a prophet, a seer and a revelator, and that he's. He's, you know, even with the Book of Mormon, he's talking about, you know, seeing the characters on, you know, in the. In the golden plates and then. And then providing, you know, English version of whatever those words mean. Like, you have to admit that it's tricky that on the one hand, he says, written by the hand of Abraham, he says he's translating. He uses the word translation, even describes the process in ways. Or others describe the process in ways that literally mean translation. And when he reads the facsimiles, he's interpreting them very explicitly. And he's even writing out in Egyptian grammar and all that stuff.

Jaxon Washburn [00:59:38] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] And then you're saying, oh, well, you know, the word doesn't mean what we think it means. It really wasn't translation. It was something else. If I had tried to pull this off and if I had gotten a papyrus and if I had claimed to translate it, and, you know, people said Jackson was John Dehlin, a prophet, look at what he produced, you would write me off as a fraud because you would trust Egyptologists in that case, and you would say, well, John was just making it up. Can't you just acknowledge that your unwillingness to, you know, to use the word translation as it really means, your willingness to sort of invoke pseudo figure for other fancy highfalutin words really is really. Is this sort of active sheer will to just want the narrative to still be true when tons of evidence, if applied to any other person in any other context where you didn't have, you know, religious beliefs that were inherited from your, you know, your parents and your upbringing, you would never let those sorts of things fly. And I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just saying can you acknowledge that that's kind of what it appears that you're doing?

Jaxon Washburn [01:00:51] Yeah. No. And again, like, if it appears that also that I'm not putting forth the best defense of this type of stuff too. You know, I don't have any materials beforehand or kind of expertise in the particulars of these things. So I do look to individuals like Richard Bushman and individuals who. Who get into more of the history. And I will admit that some of the conclusions that I have are because I am appealing to an authority figure that I feel is more qualified than I am to study these things and interpret them. And we do that with scholarship and whatnot.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] Secular people do that too, to be fair.

Jaxon Washburn [01:01:43] Yeah. So I really can't get into the nitty gritty at the moment. I do see how for individuals on the outside, how, again, it's not implausible to think that I am highly influenced by my environment and by, you know, things that I would like to be true. That's not something I can consciously help, I think, beyond more than what I'm currently doing. So, you know.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] Yeah, okay.

Jaxon Washburn [01:02:15] More study, more thought and, you know, just more living life. Right. That's just my plan for now until. Until someone, you know, shows me something better that I can do besides just suspend. Put. Put my. All my experiences and. And my. My beliefs and. And perspectives on complete hold. You know, I don't know if I can really help much more than I am at the. At the current moment, you know.

John Dehlin [01:02:43] No, it's beautiful. I appreciate you being a good spirit. I'm not trying to beat you up. I just trying to. I hope you can understand the spirit from which the questions come.

Jaxon Washburn [01:02:54] Of course. Of course.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. thank you very much.

Neo-Apologist Movement Among Millennials

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 851

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Okay, well, if it's okay, let's move to the kind of the next section of the interview. Is that all right?

Jaxon Washburn [00:00:42] Yeah, feel free.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Okay.

Jaxon Washburn [00:00:44] So

John Dehlin [00:00:47] I've seen you mention that you don't like the term neo apologist, but you. But you did say you're sort of a more progressive or nuanced Mormon. What don't you like about the term neo apologist?

Jaxon Washburn [00:01:02] Geez, let's see. It's not that I necessarily don't like the term. I actually think, John, by you drawing a distinction between one style of apologetics versus another, I agree with that. Right. I think that's fair, you know, for you to distinguish between more pastoral approaches to apologetics versus, you know, more hard line or. Or snarky approaches, maybe in a nibbly style or whatnot.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Or Daniel Peterson or Louis Midgley or Greg Prince. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [00:01:33] Yeah, Greg Smith. Yeah, I think that's fair. Right. And for you to kind of distinguish between different types of Mormon apologists or Mormon scholars. I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. Sometimes the implication, from what I've heard, because there's been pushback on your use of neo apologists. Right. When individuals feel like neo apologist is now becoming synonymous with maybe unorthodox or with someone who is just trying to put a bow on Mormonism to make it look all pretty at the end of the day and package it in a way that seems appealing but really isn't, addressing some of the problems. Like, for instance, when it comes to the givens, you would classify them as neo apologists, but sometimes the term just not necessarily by you, but maybe by other people gets used as an easy way to write off voices within Mormon studies at large. Or, you know, just Mormonism. Right. As unorthodox or not fully Mormon. I mean, individuals do the same thing with me where, you know, they say I'm cherry picking or I'm just living. You know, I'm like a cafeteria Mormon. I'm taking what I like and I, you know, I'm leaving. What I don't like as if our voices don't matter or don't have validity, you know, or our experiences don't have validity or what our efforts are. Our approaches aren't legitimate, you know, if we're not legitimate voices within the church, which of course I don't claim to have authority or anything. I'm just speaking for myself. But it's an easy way to invalidate someone. Right? And so that's, that's just what I would be hesitant with. I wouldn't want to identify as a fringe Mormon or anything like that because in a lot of ways, like my views on maybe the Book of Mormon or other elements of Mormon history, they're really not too far off from classical arguments that have been made by different Mormon apologists or Mormon scholars. Like, I don't feel like I'm unorthodox. I don't feel like I'm running directly counter to what's considered orthodoxy. I don't feel like I'm a minority voice, if that makes sense when it comes to the Givens and Bushmen and other individuals is just that. I think major aspect of what sets what we could dub neo apologetic Mormonism as is just a desire to, and you've said this yourself, to validate the experiences of individuals who have problems with the church rather than write them off immediately. It's a matter of tone because I am interested in having frank and open and honest discussions with people rather than having it be a snarky debate where I am, you know, assassinating character or things like that. Right. I don't think that's productive to moving this whole collective conversation forward. I think it actually does more to hurt and entrench people than it does to build bridges. I'm all about building bridges. That's what I do with interfaith. And so these same principles of open dialogue and kind of letting people speak for themselves and validating experience and things like that, that's what I see to be part of the neo apologetic Mormonism. And also it's less on the defensive is what I've noticed. You know, individuals are less likely who you know, might be dubbed as neo apologists to respond to the latest critical book on Mormonism. You know what I mean? Like the FARMS review has all these reviews of different, like maybe anti Mormon books, right, where they would just go and bullet, you know, like hash out all these ways in which this author got it wrong. And I feel like neo apologists generally aren't looking for that kind of apologetic engagement. It's usually more positive apologetics than negative apologetics. It's usually done more to kind of show why Mormonism has a kind of religious validity or meaning or how it can hold its on, hold its own at the table of world religions and really offer things to people that is legitimate and brings value to people's lives. So that's really what I think of neo apologetics. I would just be careful for people to take that term synonymously with unorthodox or this like, new brand of Mormonism that's, that's trying to somehow go against everything that Mormonism is about and repackage it so people stay Mormon. Because again, at the beginning of our conversation, I mentioned how I don't see a monolithic Mormonism as existing in the first place. You know, and I usually feel like when people write off neo apologetic views or kind of more nuanced views on Mormonism, they're usually implying that somehow I am not being a faithful Mormon because I am having different perspectives. You know, whereas myself and Terrell Givens and other individuals, we actually go to aspects and elements of Mormon history and different quotations from general authorities in order to, to justify these kind of different perspectives we have, you know, so I feel valid or justified in different things that I push for because I can go find inclusive quotes from people or I can go find something from within a large tent of Mormonism that I can attach that way. It's not just Jackson speaking for himself, you know, but I'm actually bringing a little bit of weight to it. Right. And so that's what I see a lot of neo apologetic efforts doing. And certainly people interpret Mormonism in different ways. There's a lot of data that comes with what we could put under the umbrella of Mormonism and it's inevitable that people kind of have different perspectives on the matter. So I just, I'm against people invalidating me and other individuals as teaching Jacksonism or Terrell Givens ism or things like that. Right. Because it's not just me, you know, I'm actually trying to be authentic in my Mormon expression by including, you know, drawing these views I have from elements of the Mormon faith to begin with and all of the many quotes and, you know, data points and arguments you could make out of it.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Totally. And I loved, I loved your explanation. I loved your acknowledgement that there is a new type of apologetics, whatever we're going to call it. I love it when you or Patrick Mason or others acknowledge that the former form of apologetics in many cases was damaging and mean. Spirited and hurtful. I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, but that's been established.

Jaxon Washburn [00:09:01] I see this as the step forward,

John Dehlin [00:09:03] essentially, and so I appreciate that. And I also want to be on the record. I don't feel like I've ever said, for example, that the Givens or the Bushmans or you aren't sincere. I do not mean, when I use the term neo apologetic to mean that people aren't sincere. I don't mean to say that they're feeble. I don't mean to say they're illegitimate. I don't mean to say that they're even picking and choosing or in some way just inferior and significant. I think when I talk about neo apologetics. Oh, and I don't believe it means that they should be dismissed in any way. When I talk about neo apologetics in a problematic sense, number one, I talk about it in a positive sense because I see neo apologetics as an improvement over. And I also think it's a group of intelligent, kind, loving, gifted, generously spirited people. And so in that sense, I use the term only positively. And I mean it sincerely. I really do. I like you. I like Tom Kristofferson. I like Bushman. I like the Gibbons. I like Patrick Mason. I think these are lovely humans.

Jaxon Washburn [00:10:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Fiona Gibbons. These are lovely humans. Humans that are deeply intelligent and deeply faithful. And I do not think neo apologetics means they don't really believe it. I think they really believe it. Okay, now where I think neo apologetics is something that some still struggle with. It's this. It's this. I can see where you can pick and choose past quotes or scriptural passages or interpretations in a way that can allow you to claim that a lot of the things you're teaching now still have Mormon roots. But there's this idea that is attributed to Richard Bushman that for many, many years, probably over a decade or decades or even over a century, that the LDS Church taught a fundamentally unsustainable and many would say, untrue narrative, that there's one version of the first vision, that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, that when the prophet has spoken, the conversation should be ended.

Jaxon Washburn [00:11:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] That the Book of Mormon is a translation. That the Book of Abraham is a translation. Right. That, you know, you can go through that blacks, you know, that it was a revelation that blacks were kept from the priesthood, and you could see a first presidency statement in the 40s or 50s that caused it revelation. Right?

Jaxon Washburn [00:11:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] And that the Book of Mormon is exactly what it claims to be the most correct book on the face of the earth, and that it says very plainly that people were cursed with dark skin because of their wickedness and to keep them from being of attraction to the white people, they take all of those things. That's the narrative that so many of us were sold, that the earth is 6,000 years old, that there was a literal flood during the time of Noah that covered the whole earth. These are not just things that were trendy or that, you know, that only fools believed or some sub segment of the Church. This was the prevailing doctrinal and historical narrative of the Church for decades, if not a century or more. Now, I know you can pick and choose different things and you can find Widget said this, and Talmadge said this, and B.H. roberts said this. But I'm talking about when people joined the Church, the narrative that they were taught when they joined, and when people sat through years of seminary and institute and church instruction, this was what they were taught. This was the Mormonism that. That decades and generations of Mormons were taught. And it was a pretty monolithic overall. A monolithic and a literalistic and a sort of a consistent narrative that was very orthodox. So when neo apologists come along, they're basically trying to, you know, what some of us are concerned about is there's no sort of just flat out, we've been, you know, the Church has been wrong, we've been deceived, we've been misled. There's all sorts of errors and problems and harm that the Church has caused. It's sort of this sleight of hand. These are not the droids you're looking for. These are the Mormon truths we believed all along. And here's a version of Mormonism that has roots in various interpretations of quotes in Scripture. There's sort of an official status to it. These people aren't official spokespeople for the Church, although unofficially they're promoted by the Church. These people, you know, it's the brethren that should be speaking, not the apologists. And they're advancing a narrative that doesn't leave room for the Church, just flat out apologizing for the mistakes that it's made, for the harm that it's caused, for the ways that it's deceived and misled people. It's almost like the Church is allowing them. And even behind the scenes, through Deseret book contracts, through the Temple Observatory Group, through the Givens Firesides and the Bushman Firesides, the Church wants to put these neo apologists forth as a kindler, gentler way to slowly change the narrative in sort of an Orwellian sense where they'll start teaching all these things, teaching a new, softer, less literal form of Mormonism, such that in 10 or 20 or 30 years, the church will be able to claim, see, we've been teaching and supporting these things all along without the atonement, without the repentance, without the acknowledgement of the harm and the damage and the misguidance and deception that has been caused for generations. And so whether or not neo apologists are sincere, I think people view them as unofficial and is in some way aiding in this systemic rewriting of history so that the church doesn't need be accountable for the real harm and deception that it's taken part in. So I don't expect you to be able to sort of respond to all that. But can you get a sense for the reason why people have concern about the role you're playing, whether or not you're sincere, you know, whether or not you mean it, whether or not your feelings are legitimate? Can you see why some people have concern about the role that neo apologists are playing in this whole sort of unfolding of history?

Jaxon Washburn [00:16:15] Yeah, no, I can definitely understand that. I think. I don't know of very many neo apologists that would claim that their views have been the established orthodoxy for all, you know, like, this whole time, like I'm certainly willing to admit to when, you know, I am running counter to what has been a historical narrative within Mormonism. In many ways, you know, it's because I recognize problems in the narrative that I'm wanting to move past, you know, and improve upon these problems and offer potential solutions to these issues that way. The narrative we have moving forward is one that is more accurate to history and is more accurate to reality than maybe what has been taught before. And personally, I would love to see further efforts be made on behalf of the Church to kind of make amends for some of these issues in terms of, let's say, like, blacks in the priesthood or things like that. I think there's a lot of reparations to be made or that we could be making that have yet to be made. Right. So I recognize when, you know, it would be, I think, mature and a good course of action to more openly recognize some of the problematic elements of history and how things have played out.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] When Oak says we don't make apologies, how do you feel about that kind of statement? Well,

Jaxon Washburn [00:18:02] yeah, I mean, I would just see things differently than Oakes would, and it's certainly interesting to see the different voices within the quorum of the 12 play out because some of them have very strong personalities or very strong subjects that they like to focus on, like Oaks in terms of homosexuality or LGBT issues. Right. That I wouldn't necessarily always see eye to eye. So in terms of saying that we don't make apologies, I don't know how correct or proper of a statement that actually is. I mean, some feel it's kind of.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] I'm not asking you to use these words, but some feel it's unchristlike to say we don't atone for our mistakes, we don't repent, we don't ask forgiveness for the harm that we've caused. They just say it's unchristlike, it's unchristian. I'm not asking you to agree with that. I'm just expressing that.

Jaxon Washburn [00:19:07] Yeah, I can say that that quote does make me uncomfortable, and I wouldn't rally behind that.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] Quot yeah, Yeah. I appreciate your candor there. Really. I think you've already said it. So some wanted to ask if you have empathy and validation for those who choose to leave. And I think your feelings about your mom just make that really clear.

Jaxon Washburn [00:19:32] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] And do you feel it's okay to criticize the church or its leaders or its policies? Or do you think it's wrong to criticize church leaders and policies?

Jaxon Washburn [00:19:45] So I run a Facebook group called Millennial Mormonism that has about 470 members now, different millennials, also my age or a little bit older, who are individuals, probably much like myself, who have a love for the church and our faith, but also don't shy away from recognizing when there's problems and when there's room for improvement. And so within that group, to try and prevent criticism, just building up negativity, we always strive to make it constructive criticism. I think constructive criticism is a good form of criticism when you know it. When a criticism is solely pointing out something wrong without offering a solution or, you know, talking about ways that it could be corrected or made right or better. I don't know if there's much, much value in a criticism that's just somewhat negativity for the sake of negativity. So I would hope that when I criticize it is because I recognize problems in the culture, in, you know, certain institutional elements, maybe certain things that we can improve on. Like, I'll give you an example. Recently, with the recent temple change to where priests can now perform baptisms for the dead, I can't remember a time when I didn't feel like the fact that priests couldn't baptize in the temple made any sense at all. Like, you know, there was just no explanation for why they couldn't baptize in the temple because they could baptize outside of the temple. You know, so now that we have allowed priests to baptize in the temple, that just makes a whole lot more sense. And that's something that, yeah, I would criticize before the change took place as something that I don't see any valid reason for us to keep up this practice. And so when it comes to criticism, yes, I consider myself a critic in the sense that I care about the community and the church and my faith enough to look at elements that I think stand in need of improvement and speak candidly about them and really strive to establish Zion and in a way that is faithful, but is also kind of cognizant of areas that need improvement. I think that's what part of establishing Zion is all about, is looking for ways to not only better ourselves, but to better those around us and better the situations that we're in. You know, I would certainly hope that that is the spirit moving forward rather than accepting the status quo on the basis of it just being the status quo. You know, I would hope that we can look kind of critically and really think about different elements of our faith and how we might be able to improve them moving forward.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Appreciate you acknowledging that there's a place for constructive criticism, that you believe that as long as it comes from a spirit of wanting to make things better and of constructively engaging the church, that there's a place for criticism.

Jaxon Washburn [00:22:50] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] We appreciate that. So what is your intent? So there's a lot of people that have been frustrated with maybe your attitude or your posture of your tactics. Some say, are you proselytizing? Some say, are you attention seeking? Some say it's about ego. Some say you're trolling. Why are people asking? Some called you like a Dan Peterson, an embryo, which I think is a disgusting, offensive, ouch.

Jaxon Washburn [00:23:22] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Sort of thing. It's just not fair. It's not a fair reading of how I see you as engaging. But where do these things, these sort of concerns come from? Is it that you've evolved over time? Were you more offensive in the past than you are now? How much of this is your evolution in terms of your demeanor? How much of this is just a misunderstanding of what you're trying to do? And if you just want to cut to the chase, what is your intent in your Engagement in places like the Mormon Stories podcast community.

Jaxon Washburn [00:23:53] Yeah, well, so I will say that early on, I've probably been part of Mormon Stories podcast community for over a year and a half now, maybe, maybe close to two years, maybe with varying levels of activity. And when I first joined, I will say that unfortunately, my demeanor was that of kind of the classical snarky apologist, right. Who joined the group to, while, on one hand, share my beliefs and, you know, defend something that I thought was true, on the other hand was fairly invalidating and also just was. Was less mature and less friendly. And so I think one of my first posts in it came out of a place of ignorance just because I hadn't dealt with the larger post Mormon community online before. Right. And so that was really my first introduction into a larger community of individuals. And so I can definitely say I've matured over time. And my first post, I think, in Mormon Stories podcast community was posting something from Fair. Fair Mormon. You know, as. Like my. As my point or my argument. As if. As if you people haven't read Fair before. You know, when I say it came out of a place of ignorance, it truly was that because I had yet to have more widespread exposure to sincere individuals who had gone through massive amounts of effort and strain and hurt as part of their. As part of their experience. So, you know, I do apologize that I don't think, you know, there's ever an instance now where I don't apologize for that when someone brings it up. So, yes, it is developmental. I think another part of what you described, John, was just the common thing that takes place and having these kind of conversations where you personally will get written off as, you know, having bad, insincere intentions or, you know, coming from a place of malice or deception or something like that. Right. You know, I mean, you get. Your character gets assassinated all the time. And so it's easy online for individuals who aren't familiar with me and aren't familiar with you and aren't putting the time to get to know us or speak with us in personal ways to kind of make, you know, flagrant accusations as to what we're actually doing. So as far as trolling goes, I'm definitely no troll. Although because I am a millennial and I am a teenager, you know, sometimes I can be a little bit snarky. So I do apologize for that. I've been trying to clean up on that a little bit lately because, you know, I just recognize that snarkiness, even when you're just joking around, it Just generally doesn't lead to a good place. So, you know, I recognize that. So, yeah, it's been developmental also. A lot of it just isn't merited, I think. So my intent with engaging on Mormon stories podcast community is sincere, and it's just to reach out to a population group that I feel has experienced massive amounts of hurt and harm on behalf of, you know, many Mormons a lot of times who have treated them unfairly or pushed them or marginalized them, you know, and so I'm trying to welcome people to my table to break bread with me, right. And show that I am open to dialogue, I am open to friendships across these lines. And I'm trying to break down some of the. Some of the tribalism that's been perpetuated both by Mormons and how they treat the post Mormon community, but then also sometimes by post Mormons themselves and drawing a line between themselves and individuals they know who are sincere Mormons. Because I think it happens on both sides. And a lot of times individuals who have left Mormonism in the form of Mormonism they knew and believed in was correlated Mormonism. When they become a post Mormon, it's easy for them to become just a direct foil of the kind of Mormon that they were to begin with. So one that, you know, really sees things in terms of black and white, has very exclusive mentalities, very entrenched, right. And these are just kind of mindsets that I think sometimes carry over. So I'm just inviting people from both sides who are Mormons to go and commune and make friends and establish relationships with people who have chosen not to be Mormon anymore, just as much as I am with post Mormons who have a lot of hesitation and aren't so comfortable with the idea of having a relationship with a Mormon. I'm trying to validate their experience and I'm trying to be sincere in the way I go about that. So I assure you I'm not being deceptive or, you know, I'm just trying to evangelize or things like that. If my mere presence is evangelizing, you know, then we're all evangelizing because we're all sharing different viewpoints. So I think, you know, we all, we all have that ability at the end of the day, and especially if you read the guidelines and the description of Mormon Stories podcast community, the Facebook group, it, you know, says that it's a place that is open to believers and non believers alike. Right. And I would love for that ideal to. For individuals to strive towards that and really make it A better space that way. It's not just so polarizing or maybe one sided, because in a lot of ways it is. And so, you know, hopefully, like, yeah, my motives are just friendly. I just. I just want to talk with people and establish relationships and build bridges where bridges have been burned down before. So that's all I can say on that.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] I love it and I really appreciate that. And I'm glad you're in the Mormon Stories podcast community. Even though some would say that's one of the biggest echo chambers in Mormonism, I've never wanted it to be that. It's just really hard to keep believers and non believers in the same space. It's almost impossible. And what happens is the angry, disaffected voices almost always drown out the believing voices and the believing voices leave. And that's just.

Jaxon Washburn [00:30:41] So what's been really interesting is with that Facebook group that I started, Millennial Mormonism, we have individuals who are post Mormons in the group or are transitioning or are never Mormons, or are Mormons of varying stripes. And I've just been really pushing for these principles of open and civil dialogue. And I've had to kick people out of that group who are either too zealous or fundamentalist in their Mormon belief. Too zealous or fundamentalist in their lack of belief. Right. And so I've really just been trying to create a sincere space for younger audiences there, and it's been going okay. You know, and sometimes I think these groups, when we're striving for inclusivity and just open, frank discussion, that maybe it's not for everyone if someone can't bring themselves to commit to kind of these. These values of open dialogue. Right. It takes a certain kind of person from each side. So I'm trying to establish an environment where that can take place rather than just like a flame war or a place where it's an echo chamber, you know?

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Yeah, I love it. Okay, what about people that say, you know, you're too young, like, live some life a little bit, serve a mission, get married, go through the temple. Like, is it a little bit too early for you to be sort of in this conversation? And this isn't what I'm saying, it's just what other people are saying, that there's a lot of apologists that have ended up leaving the church, A lot of people who've held your positions that have ended up abandoning them. They're basically saying you're too young and naive to even be engaging in these conversations. I hate that. But what would you say to that?

Critics, Authenticity, and Church Engagement

Jaxon Washburn [00:32:34] I guess I would just say, like, I can't really help myself. Right. If I was to just put on all this on hold, I think that would be wasting time. If anything, the major complaint from people is that it wasn't until later in their life that they found out about these issues or started talking about these issues. So I don't know if you can necessarily have it both ways to where an individual is too young to be grappling with these things, but also not old enough to identifying with one side or the other. You know, I don't really get where that. Where that comment is or mindset is supposed to lead me. Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do in replacement. Like, you know, in saying live life, I am living life, you know, like, I'm alive. I'm seeking out more experiences than. More diverse experiences than many people usually undergo in their young life. So I would like to think I'm making an active effort to live my life in as open and diverse a way as possible. And I always do carry that kind of. That kind of caveat, that even though I identify as something now, I'm not opposed to identifying as something else later if such is the case, you know, if I get to that point. So I feel like maybe that comment is kind of taken without fully understanding what my attitude is and kind of how I see myself on this journey. Because if not now, then when, like, what's the litmus test for age and life experience? Because my life is going on as normal. I'm gonna. Gonna serve a mission and hopefully get married. You know, I'm gonna be doing all these things. I don't get why my age is necessarily an issue. Perhaps I come off as naive at times, or maybe if I try and speak too authoritatively to others that have more or deeper life experience than I do, maybe it's coming out of that position, but for the most part, I don't know if I can agree with it. You already expressed yourself that you don't necessarily agree with it either.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] No, I hate it. I hate the criticism.

Jaxon Washburn [00:34:49] I just don't get it Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] And I really resent the criticism that I shouldn't interview you. That was just a. That was really weird, gross suggestion. And I had several people tell me that. And I just think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what Mormon stories is about. It's disrespectful. It's just lame on 20 different levels. Yeah. And I think you're brilliant and gifted and Inspiring. So I hate a lot of these questions, but I'm asking because people ask me now.

Jaxon Washburn [00:35:19] No, that's okay. I understand.

John Dehlin [00:35:23] So let's see some claim that you are aggressive and that your aggressiveness is polarizing. You've already apologized for some of your approaches in the past, which I think in and of itself is deeply respectful.

Jaxon Washburn [00:35:37] Yeah. And I'm making an active effort not to be aggressive. You know, like, sometimes, I will admit I still can be a little snarky sometimes. Sometimes. But it's usually when maybe, I don't know, like, maybe I'm tired or it's late at night, or someone just comes out swinging with these blatant accusations that I think are just completely flagrant and unfounded that, you know, I might be inclined to swing back a little bit. I don't know if that's. Like, I recognize that it's wrong, but I don't necessarily think that that's too unique to myself. I mean, who isn't incline, you know, initially, you know, throw a kind of a dagger, point back sometimes. I don't know, I try not to. And so I apologize when I do. I recognize that it's not helpful. We can all do better online.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] I love it. So how open are you with your bishop and your local ward and stake members and kids at school? Are you able to be open and honest about your views, or is this something you reserve just for the Internet?

Jaxon Washburn [00:36:50] No, I feel like I am. I feel like I try and be authentic and try and be the same person online that I am in real life, you know, face to face with people. Certainly when it comes to different conversations I have, sometimes the moment calls for me to be a little bit more critical or a little bit more vocal about opposition that I have. Sometimes I don't feel so inclined to kind of draw away from the moment for the sake of sharing my own views. You know, it's really a case by case basis that I think is just a normal experience, but I certainly don't feel like I am. I have to be dishonest with my presence or my understanding with my bishop or things like that. I express many of these things, if not all of them, with individuals who ask whether they're face to face or online. So I'd like to think that I'm authentic all around. And when it comes to interviews like Temple or, you know, what will be mission interviews or things like that, I'm planning on being just as authentic because I don't think there's really a better way to live. I Wouldn't feel comfortable with that, you know, pretending to be something I'm not or hold to views that I don't necessarily hold to. So when it comes to me bearing my testimony in church, writing online, talking with friends, talking to bishops, answering phone calls, things like that, yeah, I think that I'm consistent and open and honest.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] We've already addressed in future, in the previous episodes, your, you know, what I heard you say was that you tend to support same sex marriage. You really hope that the November 15, 2015 policy changes, that you don't like that policy and that you condemn racism, even the racism found in the Book

Jaxon Washburn [00:38:50] of Mormon and by LDS leaders and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] Yeah, you condemn all that. I want to give you a chance to talk about women and sexism in the church and, you know, ordained women and just systemic patriarchy that many say is deeply damaging. Do you have any feelings or thoughts on that?

Women, Priesthood, and the One True Church Question

Jaxon Washburn [00:39:12] Yeah, I am not opposed at all to the idea of women getting the priesthood. I believe that Mormonism is a faith based on revelation. So when it comes to individuals feeling like that is a gap that needs to be filled, I'm not opposed to them saying like, I think women should have the priesthood or expressing that or things like that. It was actually really funny because it was at the Parliament of the World's Religions when I first, you know, which was my big interfaith debut. That was when I met Kate Kelly for the first time. She did a presentation there as well. And I attended her presentation. I had only heard her name beforehand as kind of a hiss and a byword by different ward members who, you know, kind of scoffed at the idea of women getting the priesthood. And so I was really intrigued in meeting her and talking with her a little bit. And yeah, so again, this is an area in terms of patriarchy and gender roles and things like that that I think I'm open to pointing to different areas that I think should be criticized and replaced with something better, with something healthier, with something more sustainable. I would like to see more equality within the church and more emphasis on female divinity and women's roles in the church. I am not fundamentally opposed to a male priesthood, but I would at least like to see it shifted from maybe being framed in the context of males having superiority over women to, you know, men and women being equal in different, not necessarily responsibilities, but at least in terms of worth. I think for the most part, there's not people, there's not many people who say that men are worth more than women in the church. Like as far as leadership goes, you know, that's. That's not something you hear, but certainly by different actions of ours, sometimes that can be implied.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Or

Jaxon Washburn [00:41:25] when it comes to roles and responsibilities, sometimes the spotlight is a lot more on males than it is on females. And I would just like to see a Mormonism moving forward that is more open to kind of maybe reforming some different issues and making things feel more inclusive. I don't think necessarily that men and women need the same responsibilities, but I would like to see different roles being recognized as equally valid. So, you know, if men have the priesthood, then, you know, women have a complement to that that is also important and is also seen on par, and that women can own up to and identify as their own, you know, much as males do with the priesthood. Or maybe it gets extended both ways, I don't know. But these are conversations I would like to see had. And I have different friends of mine who. This is a common thing we talk about all the time, is like feminism and women's issues. And so I'm all for. For bettering the church in that way.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] You talked about your multiple highway analogy that I really loved in a previous episode. If somebody says, is the church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the one and only true church on the face of the earth, do you have a response to that?

Jaxon Washburn [00:42:54] For me, I believe it is. But I would have to clarify what I mean. As one and only true church, I would not want that to be synonymous with a kind of monopoly on truth or. Or as the only valid path for individuals in this life. Because sometimes I think it's clear that Mormonism doesn't work for individuals sometimes, and it's the healthier, more authentic path for them to take somewhere else. I mean, I certainly saw that with my mom. So when it comes to God leading us through certain experiences, I believe he can lead us in the church just as much as he can lead us out of the church as well. And that might be kind of provocative in me saying that, because I think at the end of the day, like, it's my belief in God giving us these experiences for a learning purpose that I hold as more dear to me than, you know, maybe the validity of Mormonism as a set path. So I do believe that God can take someone or inspire someone to, you know, seek spiritual confirmation or fulfillment in paths outside of Mormonism. And at the end of the day, it's up for that individual to decide whether or not they authentically feel like they are being led by God and being moved along the path that they are moving along. So I believe it's for a learning purpose. I think it's for a refining purpose. Individuals of other faiths, they're placed there to learn, to progress, to refine. And at the end of the day, you know, we're all just trying to better ourselves and we're all going, hopefully we'll end up in a place where we can progress and continue progressing. I mean, at least that's what makes sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] Just to push, maybe just to respond a tiny bit. It's sort of like you're wanting to say two mutually exclusive things, that it is the one and only true church, but that there are many paths. And honestly, sometimes that's when people struggle with the idea of neo apologetics or nuance, because in some sense, sometimes we try and stretch the meaning of words to where they don't have meaning anymore. But to say, you know, you can say it's the one true church for me, but then that's not the one true church. And you can say it's, you know, other churches and paths are valid, but then it's not the one true church, it's one of many true churches. And so can you see how in a way you're trying to hold down two positions that are a bit mutually exclusive?

Jaxon Washburn [00:45:45] Yeah, I think it should. That's why I try and elaborate what I mean by, if I ever use the context, the one true church, it's in terms of talking about my belief in the saving ordinances, in priesthood authority, and things like that that are kind of exclusive to the faith. That's what I'm highlighting when I speak of the one true church. But I think there's definitely a narrative or kind of this cultural tradition of really inflating this notion of the one true church beyond what I am comfortable taking it. And so, like, let me give you a brief example. In the Doctrine and Covenants, before the church is even organized, there's a revelation where God refers to his church, you know, and refers to, you know, those belonging in the church as those who believe and repent in him. He's referring to a church that doesn't yet technically exist. And so that gives me hope that, you know, refer to a church of. I can refer to church in multiple contexts. I can talk about the LDS church, but I can also use churches as a wider Christian community, use church and, you know, even a wider sense. So yes, it does kind of redefine and push the limits of some of these definitions maybe to where they do become just very abstract. But it's because I see multiple contexts where one can be validated and using these terms in different ways and framing them differently. So yeah, generally I would be more comfortable saying I believe this is the one true church than saying this is, as a matter of fact, without an absolute doubt, you know, or any other hypothetical possibility that this is the one true church. I don't know if I would be. I feel like when I say this is the one true church, it's because I'm speaking from a subjective experience. And so if ever I use that and this will play into my mission when I'm using that term, it will be because I'm just inviting other individuals to investigate and determine that for themselves, whether or not they believe that, you know, because that's kind of where I'm at right now. And I just invite other people to kind of undergo the same process to determine that for themselves.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Right. I think maybe you can acknowledge that to be in sort of a nuanced, liberal, progressive, maybe even neo apologetic position, you have to walk this tension between seeking for deeper, richer meanings of words on the one hand and sort of rendering words meaningless on the other.

Jaxon Washburn [00:48:34] Certainly. Let me give you an example from just my study. When it comes to. I see this within religious studies, right? There's a effort sometimes to define religion. And when it comes to religious studies, one of the first lessons we learn in the academic study of religion is that you cannot actually define religion because no matter what kind of definition you try and set on it, it's going to be not inclusive enough to the full human experience. And that's something we just really hammered home. And maybe it's just more of a post modern approach to kind of these issues is that we all carry our own baggage, our own biases, our own preconceived ideas, whether they are conscious or unconscious, and we interject them in the way that we interpret data from reality. Right. And that's something we cannot get past. We all carry this baggage. And so the best we can do in terms of scholarship and academia is, you know, put forward our arguments with the caveat that this is the bias that we are coming from, at least in religious studies, that's very necessary. So, you know, in the future, when I am publishing works on religion, I will be including the caveat that I am approaching this from, you know, a Mormon background or my Mormon background may reflect the way that I go about thinking about these things. So yeah, religion, at least by itself as a concept or an abstraction, you learn pretty quickly in the study or at Least I did at ASU right now is that you just can't define it, that attempts to define will always fail in some way. Right. And so it's best to just kind of set terms at the beginning and then move forward in the conversation, you know, when you have someone understanding kind of the perspective you're coming from, rather than treat these abstractions as absolutes that we can categorize and just nail down with full accuracy. So I think it kind of plays into that. But I do, I do recognize that, yeah, sometimes it does feel like, well, at this point, what do words even mean? You know, if words can just mean anything. And that's usually where you'll have someone argue that words are just a social construct to begin with and that they're always evolving and that there is no absolute in terms of language and ideas and communication. So, yeah, no, there is a tension and sometimes it can be rather frustrating to try and navigate, but it's because, at least for me, I recognize that there's complexity and I'm just trying to make sense of it, you know, and I'm not trying to, in my efforts to make sense of it and, and kind of open myself up to these more holistic or nuanced definitions. Right. It's not because I'm trying to obfuscate, it's just because I'm trying to understand and, and make my language as accurate as possible. But in that same process, it can be a double edged sword. So I totally get that.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] Yeah, well, I appreciate that, you know, that thoughtful response and kind of a self aware response. And you're always going to run this tension of trying to reach for deeper understandings and to be more sophisticated and nuanced and postmodern, and you're going to run against this conflict that the Q15 are not speaking the same language you are. And so you're really, in some ways, at least by the perception of some setting up a church within the church where there's the correlated, Sunday, monolithic, correlated orthodox version of Mormonism, which is a thing. It really is a thing. And then what you guys are advancing, which is really, again, what some say is a church within a church.

Jaxon Washburn [00:52:30] So if I can respond to that, it's because most of the time from these type of people that you're describing, we are approaching Mormonism with the lens of some particular form of the humanities. You've mentioned that in earlier podcasts where there seems to be this inclusion in kind of training in the humanities, academic training, as trying to define Mormonism or make sense of Mormonism. And so I'll be the first to say that it's because of what I've read within the field of religious studies that serves as a lens to how I view my faith. And, you know, I'll be very quick to admit that. So when it does appear differently, it's just because by the training that I am undergoing right now, and from what I've read in the past, this is just how I see things, you know, and kind of how I make sense of things and how I communicate things, just because it's my field of study, you know, and it's going to continue to be my field of study. So I don't mean to be disingenuous when I describe Mormonism in a language that I am being trained with, you know, and using a methodology and tools and kind of techniques that is common to my field.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] Yeah, no, I don't think you're being disingenuous at all. I think you're being thoughtful and sincere.

Jaxon Washburn [00:53:52] So I'll recognize that, yeah, there is a disparity that the Q15 aren't religious studies majors or academics in the field of religion, or else I would assume that they would frame things a little differently. I mean, it changes the way, you know, the kind of perspectives that you have. So.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Okay, I appreciate that. Okay, so that is the one true church question. Okay, so a lot of people are asking questions about your mission. I guess some people feel like you've been intending to serve a mission for a long time. Some people have the perception that it's been drawn out or delayed. Can you talk about the timing of your mission departure?

Preparing for a Mission with Unorthodox Views

Jaxon Washburn [00:54:40] Yeah. So this is just a very easy answer. I wanted to leave on my mission right after high school, so earlier this summer, as far as the time. And that was the plan. That was the plan. Pretty much my senior year of high school. And just around that time timeline, that's what I was shooting for. I got in this catch 22 situation where I got a full ride, pretty much a full ride to asu. But I was also trying to turn in my mission papers. And so in order to defer on my full ride and my admittance to asu, they wanted my mission papers, you know, to defer, to kind of be the documented evidence that, you know, I'd be stepping away from two years. But in order to place my call in, you know, I needed to make sure that I could defer on my scholarship. That way I wouldn't lose it. And just timing wise, like, I think I just took too Long and sending my. Or trying to work on my paperwork to where it just, it just didn't work out timeline wise. So I just decided, hey, I'll study for a year. There's no harm in that. Lots of people do it. And that's simply what's happened.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] Okay, is there a possibility that part of you just wanted a little more time to work things through so that you could get on a little more solid footing before you left?

Jaxon Washburn [00:56:08] I mean, it certainly didn't hurt. That wasn't my intention. I was, like I said, I was fully ready to go right after high school. And I think as far as most missionaries go, I still would have been kind of above the curve, both in my experience in talking to people of other faiths and also my understanding of Mormon doctrine and history. So I think I, like I said the plan was to leave kind of earlier and it just didn't work out. Not for personal reasons, but. Or choices, but just because of my surrounding circumstances.

John Dehlin [00:56:45] A lot of people are wondering if you can be authentic on your mission, is it ethical to. I imagine that you're not going to be able to get into a lot of the more complex or controversial issues that you're aware of, that it'll freak out your companions that it will be viewed as milk before meat with your investigators. So on the one hand, you're sort of in a very different place than most missionaries. On the other hand, some might say it's dishonest if you know the problems with the church to teach and baptize someone without making them aware. You know, some would say that's dishonest or unethical. So can you be authentic on your mission without spinning or deceiving or biting your tongue or bringing someone into the gospel that then later you regret because they joined without all the information? Is that going to be hard for you?

Jaxon Washburn [00:57:43] Hmm. It's definitely something I think about a lot and I try and make sense of and really try and nail down my kind of what I hope to have happen and how I'll go about being a missionary because I sincerely want to serve a mission and I sincerely want to share my beliefs. Right. And I want to have the mission experience and just everything that comes with it. At the same time, you know, I am stepping into it with a different understanding than others. And, you know, I'll just reiterate that my desire and my commitment is to be authentic to myself. So just as how I answer questions in a church setting now, I've been on splits with the missionaries multiple times. I Go to. I've been to Mission Prep, you know, for a very long time. I'm able to share my beliefs in all those settings in a way that even though it might sound a little different, it's still authentic to me. Right. And so I don't plan on that changing or, you know, teaching in a way that I'm not personally comfortable with. And so as far as whether or not that'll cause friction between, like, maybe with a potential mission president or companion, I'm not sure. I certainly want things to go well, and I just plan on being honest and open and again, just encouraging open conversation. So, like, I hope everything goes well, and I think it will. I'm fairly confident it will. But at the same time, it's still a place that I foresee the possibility of tension arising. And so in deciding what I'll do when that point of tension comes, I'm still figuring it out. And I've had good conversations with individuals who I trust, like Patrick Mason being one of them, who. They've given me guidance on this. And. And so, of course, when I'm teaching the discussions, I'm not going to have the time nor the resources to be able to give an exhaustive account of Mormon history and all its nuances and facets and data points. And certainly it might be inappropriate for me to teach these discussions, but follow it up with a caveat. Well, you're going to have to look into X, Y and Z, because these are major problems. I think the best thing I can do is just encourage people to investigate for themselves, to, you know, read up on these issues, to, you know, go online to not just take my word for it, but at the same time to seek a spiritual experience if they still feel inclined. I just really see mission is less of a numbers game and more of a time where I can just kind of assist in the physical and spiritual needs of other people. I already get asked questions quite a bit with the interfaith movement as to what my beliefs are and what Mormonism is. I was just trying to be frank and honest with that. And so I just see the mission, really. I've said this for a long time. It's just I'm looking forward to it being just a extension of my interfaith efforts where I'm just authentically sharing what I believe. I'm just kind of asking people to be authentic as well. And I'd rather not, you know, be applying undue pressure on individuals. I don't like to think of it as a numbers game. So, yeah, I'm just approaching it with a different paradigm and hopefully, you know, it'll all go smoothly as well. I've been told by many individuals that I'll just frankly not be able to make that work. So I guess I never know until I try. And, you know, it's my desire to go out and serve and live my faith, but then also help other people and have this unique experience for myself, this kind of coming of age type experience where I'm really hoping to mature a lot and gain a completely different life experience than one that I've to this point been able to have. That's what I'm looking for in my mission. And so that's why I in many ways desperately want to serve and get out because this is just something I've been looking forward to for so long that I'm gonna do my best to make it work in the best way I can.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] So, just to summarize 2, 2 points and move to the next question, Doug basically just says that a lot of missionaries don't know the problems with the church and so they're kind of not accountable because, yeah, they don't make investigators aware of the problems because they don't know them. He's basically highlighting the idea that, you know, that you'll be asking people to make one of the most important decisions of their life knowing the problems. And so he's just highlighting again, this idea that it's going to be a burden for you to figure out how to feel good about the fact that you know all the problems. And so if you don't let people know about them, in some ways you're actually complicit in them joining without the full bit of information. And you've already addressed it. But I just wanted to make sure I restated what Doug's concern was.

Jaxon Washburn [01:03:29] No, and I've gotten that concern quite a bit. Right. And so again, I think in that situation, the best I can do is just encourage people to do further reading beyond just meeting with the missionaries to, you know, really investigate these things and really consider their decision beforehand, you know, and just advise that they really look into these matters because really, you know, all someone has to do is just take a quick Google search and it opens up a whole plethora of discussions. So sure.

John Dehlin [01:04:02] But the question is how much you let them know that there are problems. Like if you have a black, if you're in, if you're, if the classic example is you have a black investigator, do you tell them that the church denied the priesthood, the blacks Beforehand.

Jaxon Washburn [01:04:14] Yeah, I think I would. And a lot of these things, you know.

John Dehlin [01:04:20] And if it's a Native American, do you tell them that the Book of Mormon sends racist messages? You know what I mean, that you don't believe in or agree with, you know?

Jaxon Washburn [01:04:29] Yeah, I mean, I'm just prepared to talk about these issues as they become appropriate, so while at the same time, you know, maintaining a presence in the mission field. You know what I mean? So if I just go spewing off on polyandry in the middle of a discussion, I don't know if I'll be staying very long.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] In my view, no one should join the church without knowing that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and polyandry. Do you have a position on that?

Jaxon Washburn [01:04:58] I would just encourage them to read the gospel topics, essays on polygamy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] So you would bring up polygamy in the discussions with everyone that you thought might get baptized and say, hey, make sure you read about that polygamy thing if you're interested.

Jaxon Washburn [01:05:13] Yeah, I guess, where it's appropriate. I mean, it is part of our scripture. So to not give an overview of Mormonism, I would hate for someone to feel like they found out about that aspect of it after the fact, you know, so there are things that I think I will be inclined to kind of, you know, give people a nod towards and say, hey, you know, maybe you should read up on this.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] That's gonna be so hard. You're gonna want these people to get baptized. Your zonies and DL's are gonna be wanting stats. Your mission's gonna have goals. And anytime you mention these things, you risk decreasing the chance somebody actually gets baptized. And your companions are gonna get annoyed, potentially, or it may be amazing. Like, I don't mean to say it's gonna be one thing.

Jaxon Washburn [01:06:05] I have no clue. I don't know what to expect.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] It's super complex. I'm gonna say that Chelsea writes. What did Chelsea write? She said going on a mission as a questioning, liberal leaning member caused harm to my mental health. That has affected me ever since. I hope Jackson's experience is different. And there were other people saying, you know, betting money that you won't finish your mission. I felt it kind of distasteful, but I think, you know, taking out that sort of thing, I think there is this genuine concern with people who like you and care about you, that this is a lot. This is a lot of complexity to own up to. Yes, you're mature. Yes, you're sophisticated. Yes, you're impressive. And what potentially complex Kind of pressure cooker thing, tight wire, tightrope. You're trying to walk. Do you feel that a little bit

Jaxon Washburn [01:07:03] sometimes it definitely feels that way. And it's something that I do worry about and I do hope that I will be able to have a good experience with. But again, I'm walking into, you know, a mission knowing full well the. The potential friction that could take place or the complications. So I'm not doing it out of ignorance. I'm doing it for, you know, reasons that I find more compelling than not going on a mission. You know, if anything, I have full reason not. Not to serve, you know, considering, you know, based off family situation and things like that. But this is something that I'm very set that I want for my life and I want to move forward with.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Yeah, I love it. I think it's. A lot of people want you to blog about your mission experiences.

Jaxon Washburn [01:07:52] I hope I'll be able to keep my blog. I have a blog right now, so hopefully, you know, some missionaries are allowed to keep blogs or make blogs on their mission. I want to be able to release my letters on my Facebook account. I hope I'll be able to keep Facebook. You know, it just may end up I get sent to a location where I have pretty much zero access to the Internet. And, you know, I'm just kind of on full hiatus for two years, you know, with little word back. But my hope is that I'll continue to be able to kind of keep in contact with the online community to a fair extent. Not that I'll be engaging in discussion forums and taking time away from my mission, but I certainly would like to keep everyone kind of aware as to what I'm experiencing and be able to send messages your guys way.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] A fascinating comment from a listener. Derek writes, I knew all the problems and I joined the church in December 2015 after the November policy. He says, there are good people out there, many who will want to join the church. People will be more understanding and patient if we are more open and brave. So I appreciate Derek. Sounds like you need to be someone I interview soon on Mormon stories.

Jaxon Washburn [01:09:11] Yeah, I'm actually friends with Derek, so I will second that notion in that you should interview him because he is a fascinating individual who I think has a very deserving story of being told.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] All right, Derek, contact me. Let's get you interviewed. So a lot of people are worried you won't last. You know, what are your thoughts on that?

Jaxon Washburn [01:09:32] Well, I'm going to try my best. Right. Like, I don't. I don't I want to. Right. And that's the plan. I'm not entering the field with the plan on leaving prematurely, so I can definitely say that something that I want to do is stay the full time. So fingers crossed. And I'm pretty dead set on giving it my best effort in doing so.

John Dehlin [01:09:58] If an investigator comes to you, if they Google and come to you with questions about Book of Abraham or polyandry, what sources do you think you'll feel comfortable pointing them to? Just the essays, obviously, the essays. What about. Yeah, rolling. What about podcasts?

Jaxon Washburn [01:10:15] The essays are one. I think there's no way I can't just say, go out and read more literature. You know, really, like, I just encourage people to read from both sides of the equation. And, you know, I might throw in some recommendations for places they can go for individuals who have a certain perspective on it. Like, you know, I'll encourage them to go read the works of John Gee, and, you know, maybe Rittner's response or things like that. Just, just to. I'm all about balance and authenticity and just openness. So I don't. I don't see myself suddenly becoming more biased on my mission. I think there's ways I'll be able to go about it to where I can be, continue that.

John Dehlin [01:11:04] What about giving them an alternative view so that they can weigh all the evidence?

Jaxon Washburn [01:11:08] Sure. You know, I am. The whole point of the mission is for me to share why I'm Mormon. Right. And so I'll certainly be open to sharing my perspectives.

John Dehlin [01:11:18] But also, like, would you point them to CES letter Mormon stories or Mormon think so that they can get a more balanced perspective to make an informed decision that isn't just. That isn't just apologetic, you know, taking all the evidence, not just the apologetically framed evidence into consideration.

Jaxon Washburn [01:11:37] I don't know if I'll be able to name things specifically if that would be in my best interest if I'm looking to stay on a mission. Right. Certainly I don't see a missionary saying, go check out the CES letter as seen as favorable, you know, But I will say, you know, go do your research, and hopefully they go and are able to easily access these already easily accessible perspectives from both sides. So I don't know there's a diplomatic way. I'll have to go about it.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] How do you, you know, Derek wrote, what if you're wrong as a missionary and lead people down a path that harms them? As smart as you are, how confident are you in the path that you feel comfortable putting others on the path. I'm sure you think about that. You've admitted that your position could change, and you've admitted there are a lot of difficult or even troubling aspects to Mormonism. I'm sure you've thought about that. You may get some person to join where they end up spending a ton of time and money and make really big decisions based on something that you yourself admit you may not believe in 10 or 15 or 20 years, potentially. So do you think about that at all?

Jaxon Washburn [01:12:57] I do think about that. And certainly, you know, in the moment, my intent won't be to lead them down a path that ultimately leads them hurt or harm. I'd like to think that we all experience different things for a reason, like I said. And so even for individuals who end up leaving the church, that they can draw positives from it and that they can feel like in ways that it's refined them through that process. You know, I don't know if that's something that I can necessarily help. Like, if the worry that someone might not hold the same views or down the road might no longer believe and they feel hurt by that. I don't know if that's something that I can either predict or help. I can certainly just, say, encourage them. In my efforts as a missionary, I will just be encouraging individuals to learn about my beliefs, and I will invite them into situations where they might be able to experience it for themselves and decide whether or not it's something that they want for their life. I don't know if I can do much more than that.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] Yeah, that's what everyone does, really. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jaxon Washburn [01:14:09] You know, like, I'm just gonna. Again, I see my mission as an extension of my interfaith efforts, and so it's just Jackson and someone in dialogue. I'm sharing my views, and I'm inviting them to learn more if they want.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] The same question could be turned on Post Mormons. How could you ever talk to someone about the church not being true if your positions could change later? Right. We know people have been excommunicated who rejoined the church, so can any of us ever share any view? Right.

Jaxon Washburn [01:14:38] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] So you've. Let's see some. You know, we already talked about epistemology and how whether or not feelings are reliable pathways to truth. It sounds like your answer to that was, you just have to. Well, you did say it's not just about feelings for you. It's about evidence and feelings and that you're doing your best to reconcile both.

Jaxon Washburn [01:15:03] Yes. And I would invite everyone to do that as well.

John Dehlin [01:15:06] Yeah. Do you see leaving the church as a legitimate path? That for some God might be okay or even supportive of someone leaving the church? That. Not all. I guess you've already said that. That you don't believe all people are meant to be Mormons, right? Yeah. Okay. Can you explain the difference between a spiritual witness and feelings?

Jaxon Washburn [01:15:29] Well, I can certainly draw a distinction myself personally, between times that I've watched Lord of the Rings and gotten warm fuzzies versus, you know, these intense intimate moments with what I identify as the divine. I can certainly tell the difference between the two of them. And I can tell. I can say, I'm able to tell you as well, when in LDS Church settings, what I'm feeling is no different than when I go to Roman Catholic Church or a Muslim mosque or something like that. You know, I'm able to distinguish. So there are powerful individual, subjective spiritual experiences that completely stand out from the standard, you know, just feel good feeling that I might get in spiritual or religious settings. And it's those. It's those feelings and experiences that have impacted and changed my life. They're ones that are not. I'm not able to replicate them at will, make them happen again, just because I am setting up, I'm creating an environment that's conductive to them taking place. Like these are the ones I speak of. You know, I'm staying pretty vague because they are pretty sacred to me, but they're spontaneous. They are just so distinct from what I generally experience, you know, when I'm feeling good on religion or something like that. That's what I mean. So, yes, I'm able to distinguish between those moments and when I might just generally be feeling the spirit or I might just, you know, feel good because I'm hearing a good message. I'm able to distinguish between those two.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] Yeah, I understand that. And you could also see that, like, if I intend to watch Lord of the Rings, I may not have this, the spiritual or those emotional feelings that second time. In other words, emotions can't always be forced either. So even emotions can't necessarily be manipulated or contrived.

Jaxon Washburn [01:17:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] But what it comes down to is you say for you internally, you feel like, you know, a difference.

Jaxon Washburn [01:17:43] Yeah, I can tell a distinction between when it's really just something undeniable, those moments where I felt spoken to personally that are just distinct and just, you know, so different than just, you know, like just a feel good feeling. It's moments like that that change my paradigm and perspective and kind of guide me. Right. So those Are the ones especially that I'm protective of the other ones. You know where I might feel good singing a hymn at the LDS Church, I might feel good singing another hymn at a different place. Those are. Those are ones that are probably more similar.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] And you would. And again, you would acknowledge that. You would probably acknowledge that the guys who flew the building into the Twin Towers in New York, maybe they received what they thought was direct personal revelation and that different people can receive opposing revelations, that the followers of Orange FPS and the FLDS Church can bear their testimony and say God spoke to them. The Snufferites say that Jesus appeared to them and that they know that it's direct revelation and that this whole. Everyone's doing their best. But at the same time, can you acknowledge the episcopal epistemological problem that everybody is claiming that same type of deep, meaningful witness that you're claiming, and that should call us all to wonder whether teaching that this sort of spiritual witness as being the way to arrive at truth is just fundamentally problematic in some sense.

Jaxon Washburn [01:19:32] Well, I mean, to unpack that a little bit when I will be teaching about the Spirit on my mission or already when I speak of it, you know, I'm just as prone to Talk about Moroni 104 through 5 as I am to refer to the Doctrine Covenants, you know, which talks not only of a burning in the bosom, but also, you know, studying it out in the mind and things like that. So this comes to an issue. I just don't know if we can help in our current mortal condition. I don't know. I already expressed earlier that I don't think it's authentic for individuals to completely write off their subjective spiritual experiences as untrustworthy or without meaning or value. And I don't think we can help but to have experiences like that kind of serve as lenses through which we view reality. So I don't know, even if it is something that ultimately isn't valid, I don't know if we can help that in the first place, I guess, is what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Yeah, it's just a conundrum. You're basically following your truth and everyone else is following their truth. And the truths may conflict, but everybody's

Jaxon Washburn [01:20:45] just, at the end of the day, like, what else can we do? You know, because if there was some type of foolproof, absolute way to figure this stuff out, I think most people would be on board with that by now, you know, but there's just not even within. Even using just like the scientific method, too. That's a Process which is progressive and people continue to refine and things like that. And so there's just. There's very few ways through which we can go through life with full assurance. And often when we discuss absolutes in reality, all we can really apply them to with full confidence is maybe in, like, mathematical proofs or things like that. So, you know, I don't know. Again, this opens up philosophy and epistemology and people, on the one hand, someone

John Dehlin [01:21:38] might say, oh, I know the way to deal with this. Just forget about religion and just base your worldview on things that are more material, that are more immediate, that are more generally scientifically acceptable, that are based more on reason and evidence, less on, you know, spirit and emotion. And I could hear you responding and saying, well, that wouldn't be authentic to me because I feel like my spiritual experiences are authentic and it would be inauthentic for me to deny those. Right?

Jaxon Washburn [01:22:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. As far as, like, the. The pure materialist goes, again, I. It's my personal view that none of us can escape the religious impulse inside of us, so it's always going to affect some form of our lives. This is something we talk about a lot in religious studies, is whether or not the religious impulse can be transcended. And generally, there's two camps. There's those who say it cannot be transcended and those who say it can. Many of the new atheists, you know, like your four Horsemen, would defend the fact that they believe that they fully transcended religious impulse or, you know, they no longer experience it. And I just don't know if that's even possible. I don't know if I've ever seen an individual which has fully rid themselves of all kinds of these impulses. Right. And for individuals who kind of dive into religious studies, you learn that this is just a very real problem because religion is just so much bigger than the Western definition that we try and ascribe to it as a series of affirmative propositional statements or doctrines. It's just really difficult to define it in any meaningful way. And so there's people that argue that just the mere act of maybe kissing a photograph, the religious impulse acting out in the individual or finding value in art, you know, that materialism cannot answer issues of, like, the purest form of materialism cannot answer issues of morality or finding beauty in art, you know, because it posits that there's some kind of. That we should only be dealing in pure objectivity. Right? And just absolutes. And so much of life is based off our Subjective, individual experience. And so I think you're always going to have the two in complement with each other, the subjective and the objective. And sometimes it can be difficult to separate the two. But there's certainly so much complexity that comes with even breaking this topic open for conversation. There's just so much depth to it. You know, I can't speak enough to just how massive the amounts of literature and thought that have been poured into these very basic principle problems. You know, they're conversations that continue today. So best we can do is just get informed, I guess. I mean, I don't have any sure answer to it.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] And if somebody says, isn't it convenient that you. You've found a spiritual witness in the whole. The spiritual home in which you were raised? What do you. What do you. You know, that. That seems convenient.

Jaxon Washburn [01:25:17] I get that a lot. And again, you know, you could probably argue confirmation bias on that part. Like, it does make sense. And I think most people, they do end up affirming the same worldview that they were raised with. Right. It's generally more common than not. Right. So all I can say is just say honestly that that wasn't my intention. Starting off, I didn't expect this necessarily to happen, and I didn't make a conscious effort to make sure it happened. Right. I was just as prepared to go a different route as I was to go the Mormon route. And I've been doing my best to be authentic and be as open as I can to all these different possibilities. You know, I read texts from other religions, I go visit these places of worship. I actively investigate these faiths and these different worldviews. And so, at least for me, like, I'm. I'm trying to do my best to make sure that I'm not just picking Mormonism because I feel like I got lucky because it's what I was raised with. I think maybe in some ways, like that plays into it. Like, it's very. It's very likely that psychologically and yeah, just in terms of psychology, that I'm probably more prone to it, you know, in an unconscious way, but it's not something I can help. It's unconscious for a reason.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] And I think your best defense would be that your mom gave you every excuse to leave Mormonism. You know what I mean?

Jaxon Washburn [01:26:53] Yeah. So most. I have. I have quite a few family members that have left the church as well, too. So I don't feel any pressure in my life between, you know, parents, like, at this current point of my life, you know, the kind of the polarizing that I felt early on that intense pressure. I haven't felt that for a very long time, you know, and I felt just very open and able to move forward in whatever path I feel is right. So, yeah, I do have every excuse not to be who I am right now. And so, I don't know, hope, you know, maybe that is a good defense.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Why does the Church need apologists? Why can't the brethren just speak for themselves? They get revel. First of all, they're the leaders of the Church. They're the ones making the decisions. They're the ones that claim to speak to God. Shouldn't they be the ones speaking directly and not relying on these apologists at arm's length where there's plausible deniability? Do you ever wish that they could stand up more and do their own explaining or defending or even apologizing?

Jaxon Washburn [01:28:00] Well, I mean, I do see them as approaching these matters from two different ends. I mean, apologetics by itself is really a scholarly or rational pursuit rather than a spiritual one. And I see brethren as really in all of their messages, not being so focused on scholarship and approaching things, you know, from a purely academic viewpoint, but rather from a devotional and a spiritual standpoint. And so I almost see them as in two different camps that I see both necessary. And I see this reflected in other faiths as well. It's not often that I would see Pope Francis involved in public debates or writing books on why Catholicism is true and putting forth evidence based propositions. I don't think what the brethren are doing are any different than what many leaders of other faiths are doing as well. And while that might not be satisfying to individuals who might like them to come forward with certain statements, just the whole nature of what we're dealing with, with scholarship in general, so much of it is open to further development and change and discussion. And so I, I'm fairly more comfortable with them not making statements like that than I would be if they did. I think if they did make statements of an academic nature, it would cause more problems because we already suffer enough from the view that they speak infallibly and without error and that, you know, what they say can't change, which I think is very contradictory to the spirit of Mormonism with a progressive revelation. Yeah, I would just hope that, you know, rather than feeling that they use apologists as a last ditch effort to make themselves, you know, justifiable, that it's just seen as a natural process. I don't know what else would be going on unless we're Expecting the brethren to be experts in these, you know, sometimes very complex historical, social, religious, and maybe psychological subjects. I don't know if they can do that. I don't know if that's plausible or realistic for those who.

John Dehlin [01:30:40] Do you sympathize with those who feel like in every major social justice movement, whether it's polygamy or. Which wasn't a social justice movement, but it was a social concern at the time, whether it's on race and civil rights movement, whether it was the ERA and the women's movement, now it's the LGBT stuff. Do you ever sympathize with the concern that these men are supposed to be profit seers and revelators, and yet they trail by a matter of decades most of the major civil rights issues of our generation?

Jaxon Washburn [01:31:14] No, I definitely sympathize with that. And sometimes it definitely appears as such. I think there's instances where in Mormon history we have been more at the forefront and more progressive. And then there's definitely times, many times that it does appear that institutionally we have been slow to change. And I think that attribute of being slow to change isn't unique to the Mormon church as an institution. I think most institutions are kind of deal with the same thing, but for individuals, I know the concern is that for individuals who are leaders of the church who have what is perceived as a direct line with God, you know, why is it that we struggle so much? Why is it that we're not doing better or responding better? Why is there still harm and hurt? You know, why are certain choices or paradigms being communicated through the church as doctrine and faith?

John Dehlin [01:32:21] And it's not just behind the times. They fought the civil rights movement. They literally opposed it. And with the LGBT stuff as of late, oh, they fought the Equal Rights Amendment. They actually worked to defeat it. And with the LGBT issues, we know that lives are literally at stake where for decades and decades, the church was encouraging mixed orientation marriages, celibacy, reparative therapy that literally took the lives of thousands and thousands of our LGBT brothers and sisters. So those are some. It's not just being behind the times. It's fighting policies that end up really harming people, or Prop 8, where they're taking away the civil rights to marry of free citizens of the country. So it is a little more serious than just being behind the times, right?

Jaxon Washburn [01:33:08] No, of course there's definite negative implications that come with it. And in a lot of ways, these are situations that hopefully we learn from and that we can move forward from and better ourselves as a Community.

John Dehlin [01:33:23] Yeah, but it doesn't. But it doesn't for you. It doesn't make you question their role as prophets?

Jaxon Washburn [01:33:30] No, because just my belief that they're prophets. Sorry, that was my mom. Yeah. So just my belief that they're prophets just entails the belief that they can receive revelation on behalf of the church. And so, you know, how much revelation or when that comes, you know, I can't say. But I sustain them as leaders for their ability to do that. You know, that is my hope. That is my. What I kind of expect from them, I guess. And so, you know, I believe that the brethren are sincere, that they are well meaning and that for many of the issues in the church, that they do seek to move forward in ways that rather than are malicious in nature, are very. They do have people's best interests in mind. But there are mistakes made sometimes. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, I definitely don't think in terms of conspiracy all the time. I would like to think that the brethren have the best intentions and try and operate based off that.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] I'm not questioning their intentions, just the impact.

Jaxon Washburn [01:34:50] It's the impact that doesn't mean it always happens. And hopefully when a negative impact is being seen, that change can be made to try and help that. You know, I don't know. As far as that, like the November 5 policy goes, it's my hope that they receive further light and knowledge on the subject and that in areas where there is hurt, because there is a lot of sincere hurt that has been caused by it, that we can try and remediate that as best we can.

The CES Letter and Gospel Topics Essays

John Dehlin [01:35:27] What have you said about Jeremy Runnels CES letter in the past? Somebody asked why do you think the Jeremy Runels is more dishonest than the LDS Church? Did you say that?

Jaxon Washburn [01:35:39] I think someone gave a whole list of kind of articles and institutions and things like that to list an order from like 1 to 10 or something or you know, set them in order from how trustworthy to not trustworthy. Right. And so in terms of just how I numbered and made sense of all these different things that were listed, I did include, I did put the LDS churches higher than the CES letter. Just because I was looking at the LDS Church in terms of an umbrella organization that include initiatives like the Joseph Smith Papers Project and you know, a lot of the scholarship that's produced at BYU and things like that, or published the Deseret Book or, you know, what have you. Right. That has inspired a lot of genuine solid scholarship. So it's Just due to the fact that I don't. I think the CES letter gets more credit or gets mistreated a lot by individuals who see it as valuable because I think its value only goes so far along the lines of Patrick Mason. I can recognize that the CES letter is very much responding to a form of Mormonism that it was born out of. And I don't dismiss all of the contents of the CES letter. I read it at a pretty early age, but I see too many people using it as a club, as kind of an end all be all to a conversation, you know, which is kind of a fallacy in itself because it's just another shotgun approach that certain individuals use it as to kind of shut down any conversation, a meaningful conversation on Mormonism. And so I'm not opposed to the CES letter being used as an introduction to some of these bigger issues. I think that's what it's meant for. What I'm saying is it's mistreated and treat it as more than it is, which is an introduction or meant to be an introduction from more of a critical perspective. Some people just treat it as like a impeccable document, you know, that just lays bare all these historical things. And I would advise people to just go read, you know, entire volumes dedicated to these issues if they want further understanding. You know, don't just stop at the CES letter.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] Okay, so there's what Jeremy's intent was, which was, I think, a heartfelt expression of issues that he researched and tried to assemble into a single document. Can you acknowledge that it was a sincere and heartfelt effort to aggregate into one document his sincere and legitimate concerns with the church?

Jaxon Washburn [01:38:36] Yes, certainly.

John Dehlin [01:38:37] And that it was not done with an intent to deceive. It was done with an intent to bring forth credible and reasonable sources and issues that are of legitimate concern, not just to Jeremy, but to many people.

Jaxon Washburn [01:38:52] Yes, I recognize that.

John Dehlin [01:38:53] Okay, so your objection isn't to Jeremy. You're not claiming Jeremy was deceptive or mean spirited or disingenuous, is that correct?

Jaxon Washburn [01:39:04] Yeah, and in the past, I may have made statements that may have been more along those lines, you know, maybe like a year ago or more. And I just. I wouldn't hold to those same views just because I'm trying to make an active effort to assume good intent and to, you know, validate people's experiences and things like that. And so I don't think the focus should be in these conversations what kind of person Jeremy is. I think that's the wrong focus.

John Dehlin [01:39:32] Or what his intent were.

Jaxon Washburn [01:39:34] Right, right. Yeah. Because that's not something that I'm capable of stepping back into time and seeing firsthand for myself. You know, it's just really just an accusation that I don't think. Okay, I think now there's arguments to be made towards Jeremy and not to dig into them too much, but, you know, there are individuals who claim or who would complain in the way that the CES letter is being used by the CES foundation or whatever the nonprofit organization that's been funded out of it or founded. Just that it's being blown up for more than it actually is. That if it truly is an introductory document into kind of a critical perspective, then, you know, maybe a lot of people just say it's being blown out to more than it actually is. So.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] Yeah, the concern you raise is that it's. Is how it's being used, right?

Jaxon Washburn [01:40:36] Yeah, certainly. And, you know, there's people who complain about how it's being used, both by individuals who read it and circulate it, but then also there's some complaints against Jeremy himself. But, you know, I don't want to get into that.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] Okay, where is there a better single book or document that fairly lays out the problems with the Church's truth claims? Can you name a better document?

Jaxon Washburn [01:41:07] See, that's the thing. It's like there's a couple documents circling around that's pretty much the same as the CS Letter. It's just, I think what really led to the rise of popularity in the CES letters, that it was the first one of its kind. There's plenty of different, like maybe evangelical apologists, publications on the many issues of Mormonism. Those existed before the CES letter did. What the CES Letter does, in a lot of respects, is just put all these criticisms in one place and distribute them all at once.

John Dehlin [01:41:44] So is there a better document out there that you could name? Where, if somebody said, hey, Jackson, where can I read a fair, honest treatment of the main problems with the Church's truth claims? Is there a better document than CES Letter?

Jaxon Washburn [01:41:58] I wouldn't probably. I wouldn't be able to point them to a single document.

John Dehlin [01:42:04] Isn't that crazy that the CES letter has been out for years? There's so many people who care about the Church who are critical of CES Letter, and yet no one, no one yet has made an attempt or successfully created something better. I notice you don't mention Laura Hale's book. You don't mention Michael Ash's Shaken Faith Syndrome.

Jaxon Washburn [01:42:29] Oh, that's what you're talking about. I talked about. No, no, no.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] Someone says to you. If someone says to you, Jackson, I'm looking for a single source that acknowledges the problems with the church's truth claims and gives me a fair layout of the problems in a context that's attempting to be objective. Is there something more objective, more comprehensive, more accurate than CES Letter?

Jaxon Washburn [01:42:58] See, the problem with that is that the CES letter ultimately doesn't as part of its discussion, it doesn't fully, I would say, offer what might be considered the best of the other side. Right. And so the CDS letter carries its own bias, as you know, being more critical, just as Laura Hale's or Michael Ash's book will be more apologetic in nature, I think and I would probably invite people to look into this more. Bill Real has done some work with a document he calls the Mormon Primer, which attempts to kind of avoid this kind of bias by having more critical observations and arguments while at the same time offering their compliment in the form of like standard apologetic or maybe nuanced viewpoints. So I think Bill Real has actually done some work that if individuals are looking for document, a single document that lays out a lot of these same problems but that offers multiple viewpoints and takes on them, I think the Mormon Primer is something that they would should look at.

John Dehlin [01:44:09] What about MormonThink?

Jaxon Washburn [01:44:11] MormonThink? I think it's been a while since I've been on it because I used to frequent it a lot. It, you know, it just kind of got to the point where had been through it all a lot like fair Mormon. I don't go on fair Mormon a lot anymore because I'm just familiar with the website. So yeah, MormonThink, from just what I remember even though it I think it just has a reputation for being still slightly critical, like more on the critical side than it is on the faithful side. And I don't know, that was kind of the vibe I got from it too. I would say I think it's better than the CS letter and I would generally view it as better.

John Dehlin [01:44:59] How objective do you see the gospel topic essays as being?

Jaxon Washburn [01:45:03] I actually like them. I don't have a lot of problems with them. They're certainly I would not want someone to treat the gospel topics essays and misuse them as a conversation ender. If anything, I would hope that individuals are using the gospel topics essays as an introduction from the church's own perspective to then go read more into these issues rather than like an end all be all because they are, you know, Just brief documents that cover complex topics that are elaborated on and lots of different volumes of books and by many different authors. So they're brief, they are introductory in nature, and I don't see it as, like. As a holistic summary of all the complexity that's taking place. So just as I would not want someone to look at the CES letter as like, an end of the conversation, I wouldn't want someone to look at the gospel topics essays as the same thing. If anything, both. Both texts are only meant to be starters to a larger conversation and further research.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] Okay, so to summarize, can you acknowledge the CES letter as a sincere attempt to express legitimate concerns?

Jaxon Washburn [01:46:25] Yeah, I think it definitely started off that way. The only thing I have hesitation on is I know a CES letter 2.0 was recently released. I haven't read that in full yet. I've only read a couple parts. But a major complaint I hear within the Mormon community is even though there's been so much, so many responses given to the CES letter that it seems like they've all, in one way or another, been completely written off, because I don't know how much they've changed at all the original arguments from the CES letter, I don't know how many times it's been refined. I'd have to look into that and do some more research. But essentially the complaint is you asked for answers. Lots of people gave you answers from lots of different perspectives that aren't always the same answer, and none of these work. And you're saying that none of these are satisfactory or are correcting you in any way. I mean, I've personally corrected what I think are sincere inaccuracies in the CES letter. In one of the brief responses I wrote to it that that stems from a misunderstanding of basic history that can just be well documented. That, you know, through no apologetic effort of my own, I can just show are very. That needs some. Some fixing in the document in order to maintain the strength that it would. Hope so. I don't know. Maybe it's a lack of revision. I'm gonna have to read 2.0 and kind of compare the two and see where, if any, any of Jeremy's arguments have changed at all. Because to a lot of people, if they see that none of his arguments have changed and that they're all the same from when he first released the letter to now, that just seems. Some people just take that as almost as if he's dismissed everyone. You know, I can't speak for Jeremy and I'll let him speak for himself on that matter, but that's what I hear a lot. So, you know, I do have some concerns in that area.

Millennial Retention and the Future of the Church

John Dehlin [01:48:44] All right, thanks for taking that. Switching the topic to millennial Mormonism, do you think there's an epidemic of millennials in the U.S. and in Western Europe leaving the church? Do you see that?

Jaxon Washburn [01:48:58] Yeah, I see that based off demographics, and that's something that the church owns up to as well. In terms of activity rates, I can say in my broader study of different religions that we actually still fare better than a lot of other religions, especially within Christianity. We're still doing better than many of the different denominations in terms of activity rates. I mean, secularism is just increasing, and the unaffiliated populations are just very quickly increasing in the United States and in Western Europe. And so it's only natural that Mormonism would experience that to a certain extent. I think when it comes to crises of faith, I see more. Faith crises come from the generation that grew up in the correlation era, which a lot of them are millennials, but at least from my own age group, you know, from many of the friends I've been able to witness, most of us are pretty committed. And like I said, I've seen that transition from the correlation era to one that's more transparent and offers more inoculation, if you will. So I think. I think these rates will decrease, you know, due to some inoculation efforts on part of the church.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] So inoculation works, is what you're saying?

Jaxon Washburn [01:50:30] I think so. I mean, I voiced this before. Most people don't have a problem with seer stones. It's just the fact that they were not never taught about seer stones in the first place that, you know, deeply troubles them. So, you know, when you change that kind of problem, I think you can definitely, I guess, keep a lot of people from having that same issue.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] And if the church were to, say, Jackson, help us keep more millennials and not lose them, are there any other recommendations you would make to the church to try and keep more of its millennials?

Jaxon Washburn [01:51:11] Well, definitely. A concern that Millennials have is that leadership of the church doesn't fully understand our perspective or some of our experiences, because most of the leadership, if not all of it, is made up of the baby boomer or

John Dehlin [01:51:32] greatest generation.

Jaxon Washburn [01:51:33] You know, greatest. You know, like the church is a gerontocracy. And, you know, I say that not as a pejorative, but, you know, very much that's what it is.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] It's a description. Right.

Jaxon Washburn [01:51:45] You Know, I'm just describing things, right? So you have individuals in leadership who are leading the church that are one, two, three generations, four generations, detached from, you know, the up and coming ones. And so I think it would be refreshing to see more representation, maybe more roles for youth or youth voices being incorporated. Again, I don't know what takes place in headquarters. I don't know exactly how the church is currently trying to make sure that it understands the concerns of the younger generations. I'm sure it makes efforts to. Exactly how that works, I don't know. But my hope is that that can continue to happen and maybe happen even more. So that way, rather than dealing with generational issues in retrospect as a means to try and I guess, kind of, you know, plug up the holes or, you know, whatever, patch things up, let's actively try and avoid them in the first place or, you know, confront them before they even take place. But again, I, you know, I. It's just me talking. I don't know a lot of the complexities that come with running a global institution.

John Dehlin [01:53:12] What about being better with LGBT people and women and people of color?

Jaxon Washburn [01:53:16] And I would love to see that happen. And as far as specific things go, just keeping conversations open, just staying open to concerns. Of course, there's all kinds of changes that I might like to see happen and that I would certainly suggest as potential problem areas if someone were to ask from the church as to how they could improve. But at the current moment, I'm just doing my best to try and change paradigms, you know, and be a voice for this change in the first place.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] How about apologize for its mistakes? You okay with that?

Jaxon Washburn [01:54:00] Yeah. Yeah. If it did that, I would be comfortable with that. In fact, I'd find it refreshing on different issues or different areas. I don't think apologizing would do more harm than good. And I suspect that maybe that's the fear right now is that by admitting to wrong, that will actually cause people to have more problems than pretending like these issues don't exist or that we're not. Responsible for them, you know, that we don't have to be advocates for it.

John Dehlin [01:54:38] What about excommunicating people who openly express doubts or concerns? Do you think that's something they should

Jaxon Washburn [01:54:45] stop or doubts and concerns? No, I think there's a difference between someone just trying to figure stuff out and more of a vocal critic. So I think there's a time and a place in each situation will have to be gauged. And I would hope that individuals, in trying to figure this stuff out would make sure that they're going about doing so in constructive ways. So I don't know. I mean, that one's kind of more complex because that's more of like a, an ecclesiastical or an administrative duty.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] The thing is, if you feel betrayed or if your kid commits suicide, it's kind. Or you lose your wife and kids because of misinformation, or you, you know, you feel duped, it's a lot to ask, to ask someone not to have periods of anger and to be silent about that. And so I just want to challenge your position that, you know, if you, if you have someone die because of a church policy, or if you feel fundamentally deceived, you're putting that burden on people, or if you just have genuine dark nights of the soul where you doubt or disbelieve things proactively, shouldn't people be given a space to doubt and to question and even disagree or disbelieve without them being thrown out?

Jaxon Washburn [01:56:10] Yeah, that's a very good point. I think that's a very complex issue.

John Dehlin [01:56:16] I can tell you from my standpoint, I felt deceived, but I felt like I loved the church. I feel like I was just trying to speak openly about my concerns. And I felt like I was trying to work for positive change in the church, including advocating for same sex marriage. And so, you know, yeah, I was angry sometimes, but I also was genuinely trying to help. And you could even say the September 6th, even more so. They were just, you know, Fawn Brody was excommunicated for things that Richard Bushman was writing. And, you know, I don't know. I would ask you to think a little bit more about that.

Jaxon Washburn [01:57:00] No, and I certainly will. I mean, there's a lot of tension with that between individual independence and, you know, just trying to live authentically and have questions and operate given the current struggles that they're dealing with. But at the same time, an institution looking out for its best interests and acting in a way that it feels is doing that, I think the conversation would be whether or not that is in the best interest of the church to kind of, you know, separate itself from individuals that it sees as problem areas. I don't know. Yeah, that's a tough one.

John Dehlin [01:57:40] It's attention. All right, so I guess let's end by your thoughts about the future. Are you optimistic?

Jaxon Washburn [01:57:54] I'm very optimistic.

John Dehlin [01:57:56] Talk about both for the church and then for you personally.

Jaxon Washburn [01:58:00] You know, I see myself and those that I'm friends with as the rising generation within Mormonism and many of Those who are my same age, like, we recognize messiness, but we also recognize that we want to make positive change and we want to live our faith authentically and be true to ourselves and really just take things completely seriously in moving forward for positive change and just living our faith, you know, the best that we see fit. So. So I'm looking forward and continuing to do that. I'm also looking forward and just continuing to progress and grow as an individual. You know, I'm going on a mission to because of the experience that I'm hoping to have, because of the changes that I hope that I can have, that I can bring to myself. I'm going to continue college. I'm going to, you know, try and get into scholarship and things like that. And I'm enjoying the journey. I'm enjoying the conversations. And at the end of the day, like, my main focus is being true to myself, but also building bridges with those that are different than me. And I think if we can all do that, no matter what our perspective is, we can make the world a better place.

John Dehlin [01:59:18] Absolutely. Well, Jackson Washburn, I don't know if we adjust for age. I don't know that I've ever had a more impressive guest on Mormon Stories than you.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Jaxon Washburn [01:59:29] You're too nice.

John Dehlin [01:59:30] No, I think that's a fact. So bless you. Praise be you for taking the heat, living your life authentically and publicly, for withstanding six or seven hours of a Mormon Stories podcast interview and not shrinking and living out loud and authentically and courageously, and for being willing to come on a forum where you might get criticized from people more on the conservative side for being willing to try to be that bridge builder. Because I certainly believe that's where I'm coming from. And I know that you are. And that's why I felt so strongly about telling all the people who told me not to interview you that they're dumb. And welcoming you on this podcast is not only legitimate story, but is an inspirational one.

Jaxon Washburn [02:00:24] Thank you, John. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [02:00:27] All right, good luck on your mission. We hope you blog and we hope to have you back either before or after your mission to update us on what's going on.

Jaxon Washburn [02:00:39] Yeah, I certainly will. I hope to as well.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] All right, Jackson Washburn, thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. It's been a pleasure.

Jaxon Washburn [02:00:48] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:00:48] Thanks to all our listeners who have tuned in. You make all this possible. Please like us Mormon Stories podcast Facebook page. Please give us positive reviews on the Mormon Stories podcast page. Please give us positive reviews on itunes. All those things make a huge difference. Like us on Twitter and on Instagram. If you want to follow us there and check out our events. We've released the 2018 events calendar for Mormon Stories. The retreats and the workshops. Lots of cool events coming. Go to MormonStories.org events to check out those events. Follow us on Patreon if you want to. That's one way you can support us financially and then most importantly, the way that we survive is by donations. $10 a month, $100 a month, thousand dollars a month, whatever you can afford. Your donations are tax deductible in the US we're transparent and it goes towards the mission of the nonprofit, which is to support Mormons in or out of the church, believing or not, but supporting them and their loved ones in a transition. Please donate and support Mormon Stories. It's the end of the year. It's the time where people are trying to figure out what to do with their charitable donations. We hope you'll keep the Open Stories Foundation Mormon Stories in mind with your donations. Just go to MormonStories.org and you can donate. Or go to OpenStoriesFoundation.org and donate. Those donations are appreciated and they keep us alive. Thanks to everyone who joined us on Facebook, everyone who wrote in with questions. Your comments and questions made this a lot more interesting. Jackson, a lot of people are saying they're proud of you. They think you're awesome and they think you're impressive. You're smart. And I just want to join the chorus and say you're freaking awesome.

Jaxon Washburn [02:02:35] All right. Thanks, John. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:02:37] Jackson, let's meet face to face sometime.

Jaxon Washburn [02:02:39] Yeah, certainly. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:02:41] And again, thanks to all the listeners. Please tune in again soon for another episode of MormonStories.org Take care everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.