Welcome and Introduction to ExMormonMindy

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 10, 2020 and we are here Saturday afternoon in studio. And we should not be here. We should be home having fun with our family. But instead we're doing a cool interview. Today we are interviewing Kayla White. You may or may not know that name, but you, if you follow ex Mormons on TikTok, you will know the name ex Mormon Mindy. We had genie Mann on TikTok. He impersonates Mormon general authorities. It was an amazing interview and I want to spotlight this platform of TikTok because I think it's important. You know, podcasts are great. Mormons have been dominating that market for at least 15 years. YouTube has been coming online. There's a lot of good activity on YouTube, but we don't want to miss important emerging platforms, especially platforms like that are reaching young adults and kids and even, even hip 20 and 30 somethings and others. So that's what TikTok is. And I think probably the biggest, hottest, one of the biggest, Hottest channels on TikTok in the space of Mormonism is ex Mormon Mindy or Kayla White. And here she is in studio. Hey, Kayla. Hello. Thanks for joining us.

Kayla White [00:01:20] No problem.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] And you had to wake up early and drive here. I did.

Kayla White [00:01:23] We live in the armpit of Utah, so.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Which.

Kayla White [00:01:26] It's Vernal.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Yeah. And you came all the way from Vernal?

Kayla White [00:01:28] All the way.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Yeah. So thanks so much. Thanks so much for joining us. It's so good to have you and this is really fun. Yeah, yeah. So you're a tiktoker.

Kayla White [00:01:38] I am. Didn't think I ever would be, but life throws the curves.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] When did you first learn about TikTok?

Kayla White [00:01:44] Oh, earlier this year is all.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] This year. Right. It's that new?

Kayla White [00:01:48] It's. It's really new.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] Yeah. So for those who don't know, I'm just going to show you, for those who have visual, this is ex Mormon Mindy's TikTok channel and it's basically just these little two minute videos. And as we're scrolling through, you can see various videos that, that Kayla has produced and we're going to be playing them throughout the show. And what I'm going to go ahead and do is just play the first one. All right, so this is ex Mormon Mindy with her ex Mormon rap in the Mormon Church.

Kayla Performs Her Mormon Church Rap

Kayla White [00:02:20] I was born and raised believing the prophets How I spent all of my days modesty scriptures and following the rules and belie and all the Bullshit. Like some kind of a fool well I was in love so the choice was made Gotta get married so I can get laid I got my red gum men to the temple we went and this is where I got my magical underwear called garments. They were white and cut sleeve and knee length beauties I hated to wear them but I did so out of duty Unhappy in the church so I did some reading oh boy, do you see where the story is leadin'? I left in November like a true traitor and I yelled to my garments, you undies, smell ya later. Look to my shoulder and it's there I see I smile to myself I'm so glad that I'm free.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] So I guess that gives you a sense for what ex Mormon Mindy's throwing down. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty hardcore.

Kayla White [00:03:09] I know it.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] You're not messing around.

Kayla White [00:03:11] I'm not taking any prisoners.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] Well, so let's dig in. What we want to do is we're going to go ahead and hear Kayla's story and throughout we're going to play some of Kayla's videos and it'll be fun. So. Yeah, fun. So let's start. So Kayla, let's start. So are. Were you born Mormon?

Kayla White [00:03:32] I sure was.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] Tell us about that.

Kayla White [00:03:34] Well, my dad converted my mom and they got married in the temple. They had a bunch of kids. And when I was 18 months old, my mom was pregnant with my little sister and my dad was hit by a drunk driver coming home from work and was killed. And I think that had a really big effect on how my family viewed the church because it becomes more important for your eternal salvation when you have someone you love so much on the other side.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] So where were you guys living?

Kayla White [00:04:01] We were living in California at the time. So I was 18 months. So really little. I think my eldest sister was almost 12 when it happened. And then my mom was pregnant with their sixth daughter actually.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] So are you feeling emotional about that right now?

Kayla White [00:04:14] Talking about? Yeah, it was one of the things that was really hard, you know, further on in my leaving story was losing that eternal promise because I kind of clung to that really hard. And I think it kept me in the church for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] So growing up as a little girl, did your mom remarry?

Kayla White [00:04:28] She did. So she remarried. My stepdad.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] How many years after?

Kayla White [00:04:31] Not super long. I want to say two to three years after, maybe less. And he brought in two kids and then they had two kids together. So we became a yours, mine and ours kind of family. 10 of us total in the family. But my dad. My stepdad and I never had a great relationship. And. And so again, it was back to that eternal, like, well, you know, I don't have a dad here on this earth that I feel like I'm close with, but at least I'll have him in the next life.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] That's super hard. So you don't feel like you bonded with your stepdad?

Kayla White [00:04:58] No, and it's gotten better over the years, but I don't think we'll ever have a father daughter relationship. But we're friends now. But it wasn't always that way. We had some really rough patches, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Okay, so Mormon theology was an important part of you having hope that you would see your dad someday.

Kayla White [00:05:14] Exactly. And it was talked about a lot, obviously, in our house. So it was very important there.

Growing Up Mormon in California

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Okay, so growing up, was it a pretty unconventional Mormon upbringing or pretty conventional Mormon? It was pretty conventional in California. Is that.

Kayla White [00:05:27] Right up until when I was 8. And then we moved. So I got baptized in California, and then we moved up to, you know, Zion here in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] Okay, so you grew up where? Here?

Kayla White [00:05:36] Yeah, here, just outside of Farmington, if your viewers know where Lagoon is.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] Centerville or Centerville.

Kayla White [00:05:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Okay, so high school was Viewmont.

Kayla White [00:05:43] High School, home of the Vikings.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Okay, so. So anything about your childhood here in Utah or your adolescence, that's an important part of your story? Like, take us through kind of how your Mormon story went.

Kayla White [00:06:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] Here we moved. Zion.

Kayla White [00:06:02] Yes. To Zion. And it was a new experience for sure, having so many Mormons around, because it definitely wasn't like that, you know, Central California. It was, like, more diverse, for sure. And we were the minority. And then coming here, we were in the majority of the people. My stepdad actually did maintenance for the temple. That was his job. So it was a very. The bountiful temple. Yeah. So he was always there. And again, that eternal salvation thing was always there. I do want to mention getting baptized. I was super excited about it. This is something I was talking to my husband about, and I really was excited to receive the Holy Ghost. I have a million siblings older than me, and watching them and. And hearing their stories about feeling spirit, I was really, really excited. And we get into it, and I get the confirmation, and I remember, like, I opened my eyes. I was just waiting. Like, I thought there would be, like, some magical light switch moment, and instead I felt nothing. And I think that was the first time I didn't doubt I ate, but I was like, something's wrong with me. Like, what is wrong with me that I am not feeling this magical moment that everyone said I would have. And that was, that was the first inkling of something we got.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] And that was what age when I got conquered. Okay, and, and so how'd you reconcile that? I guess as an 8 year old

Kayla White [00:07:17] I just figured it must be normal. I never really told anyone about it, but yeah, I just thought, you know, either there's something wrong with me or I didn't know how to feel the Holy Ghost. It was really hard and it definitely is something that follows the rest of my story is that lack of spiritual feeling.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] So where do things go from there?

Kayla White [00:07:36] Oh, let's see, I'm pretty boring. Moved to Utah. I had a really normal childhood. I am. We went to church every Sunday. It was very expected but it, we didn't do a lot of the at home stuff. You know, we had family night once a year and then we go through spurts with family scripture study or family prayer. But you know, we do it really good and then we kind of tinkle off and then we do it really good. I think religion was always there wasn't something I really thought about until I reached seminary in ninth grade and, and I decided I should probably read the Book of Mormon because I was feeling really insecure that I hadn't because I felt like everybody had. And so I read it and I remember the last book of the Book of Mormon and just like rushing through it because I knew about Moroni's promise and I was like, oh yeah, I gotta get to that part, this is a good part. And I finally finished it, which by the way Moriah's promise isn't at the end. I thought it would be like the last and I had to keep reading and I was really disappointed. And I remember specifically sitting in my room, it was in the middle of the afternoon because I was that dedicated to read it and I closed it and I got on my little knees with all the faith that my little 14 year old heart could hold. And I prayed so hard and I waited because they tell you have to wait. And so I just sat there and I was like, the anticipation here is real. And I got nothing. And I was like, okay, you try that again. So I prayed again and I got nothing. And I was like, well that sucked. And so I, I was kind of ho hum for a couple days and my mom finally was like, what is going on with you? And I told her this issue I was having and she said, oh well, sometimes God doesn't give you an answer because you already know the answer. And Essentially, in a way, gaslighted me into this feeling. And I was like, oh, that's how that works. I was like, well, I guess I do know it's true. I guess maybe God didn't feel like I needed that answer because he knew I already knew. And so that's kind of what held me over for the next little bit was this thought of like, okay, God knew I knew, so he didn't need to tell me personally.

Early Doubts and Emotional Memories

John Dehlin [00:09:34] When you were telling that story, it looked like you were starting to get a little bit emotional.

Kayla White [00:09:38] I am weepy. Okay, I'll get you to cry all the time.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] But what, what emotions come up for you when you think about your mom giving you that answer? Is it anger? Is it sadness? What, what, what was coming up for you?

Kayla White [00:09:49] I think it brought up just feelings for me of that. I always felt like there was something wrong with me in the church because I never felt like I fit the classic mold again. I have a lot of siblings compared to, which isn't always a good thing. And they kind of follow this standard example. You know, they, they went to BYU and they got married and they, you know, had lots of kids and, and I remember even from a young age feeling like, oh man, I just, like I don't fit that. I don't have these same experiences. I hear them talk about. I don't, I don't have those same feelings. And I wanted it so desperately as, as the younger sibling looking up to that and wanting to fit in and to be part of the cool club. And yeah, those, those insecurities of always being like, oh man, what's wrong with me? Like, I remember even at a young age being like, how am I going to repent for every single sin? You know, like, I can't keep track during the day or I would get to the end of the day and be like, did I do anything wrong? Like, I can't remember doing anything wrong. And I always worried like maybe I wasn't repenting for something and that's why God wasn't talking to me. And it was, yeah, it's kind of traumatic as a little kid to so desperately want something and seeing everybody else have it and feeling like I'm broken, there's something wrong with me. Like I don't have these things.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] And as I've thought about, because I had almost an identical experience in 1986 as a 16 year old, I prayed about the Book of Mormon twice. Didn't get the answer. So very, very similar. And you wonder, is it that other people are Getting the answer or do that they learned a lie or do they just have the same experience where they gaslight themselves or they were guest lit by somebody else? You know, because, because. Is it that we're defective or is it that we're honest? Have you thought about that?

Kayla White [00:11:26] Yeah, I have. Because I have wondered, you know, how are these other people feeling? Feeling things? I, I'm not. And as I've grown out of the church, I've decided, I think what the Holy Ghost is to me now is just your intuition. It's your, you know, inner self knowing what's right and what's good for you. And I guess my inner intuition just never thought the church was a good fit for me and it wasn't wrong. So.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Wow. So I mean, I think this, this is important because I think, you know, you could, you could probably interpret some of your videos as having some anger in it. Although it's. What's so powerful about it is it's wrapped in kind of the sweet, happy, peppy, kind of, you know, Mormon girl mojo.

Kayla White [00:12:07] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] But then it's bringing F bombs and it's showing garments and temple clothes. So there is a. Would you say there's a sour, A salty sweet?

Kayla White [00:12:17] Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] That's intentional.

Kayla White [00:12:19] Oh yeah. Well, I mean, I come off very innocent, very innocent all the time in my life. And it's not a bad thing, it's a great thing. But yeah, I think there is that two sidedness. And I think I do have a lot of anger to the church and it is something I constantly trying to work out within myself. But I approach that anger and that hurt by comedy and by taking things that really hurt me. Like the subjects I talk about are things, you know, like the temple and garments and, and those things that really betrayed me in my mind, you know, that eternal family concept again. And I make them funny, you know, and I feel like people relate to that on so many levels. Being able to take traumatic things that make it humorous.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Absolutely. All right, well, let's go ahead and let's show another video and, and then we'll talk about it. Tell us about this one before we actually start it.

Song Spoofs and Creative Expression

Kayla White [00:13:08] I have a passion for song spoofs. I think they're just a great way to give information and they're entertaining and hysterical. And so I decided to take some classic church or hymns or primary songs and change the words into maybe a more truthful version than the sugar coated one you sometimes get a thing about in church.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] And so what is this about?

Kayla White [00:13:30] This is kind of it's I See My Mother Kneeling, I think is the name of the song. And it. The song itself has, you know, a woman's part and a men's part. And the women's part is really sweet and dainty in the original song. And then the men is always, like, really strong.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Is this Love is spoken here?

Kayla White [00:13:43] Yes, that's what it is. Love is spoken here.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] And so you've taken the song Love

Kayla White [00:13:47] is Spoken here and changed the words. And so I kind of made the woman's portion. Those feelings of, you know, not feeling good enough and dressing modestly needed to fulfill that. And then the men's version is kind of more laid back and. And, you know, they have the priesthood power, so it goes along with that strength that they have in the church.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Yeah. All right, so this is Kayla White as ex Mormon Mindy and a video about gender roles, kind of. Right?

Kayla White [00:14:11] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] Okay.

Kayla White [00:14:12] I am a woman in the church. I am so very valued. I get to dress modestly to help the men stay clean. I never feel good enough. I'm trying my very best. One thing I do know, I'll always answer to a man. Mine is a home where I preside. What does that mean? I call on people to pray. I am so very important because I hold the priesthood power. What makes me worthy of this gift? It's because I have a penis.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] So good. So, yeah, so, I mean, like, it's. That's so powerful. That's one of your favorites.

Kayla White [00:15:18] Oh, yeah, for sure. I just. I think it hits so close to home with so many different things that people relate to in the church, especially as a woman.

John Dehlin [00:15:26] Just the. That a man presides, but it's because he gets to say who says the prayer. Yeah, it's because he has a penis, Right. Yeah, that's kind of true.

Kayla White [00:15:34] I mean, there's no other answer given why, you know, women can't have the priesthood. So. Yeah, it's fantastic.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] It's brutal. So let's talk about your teen years and adolescents. Like, you know, obviously there are a lot of things that can come in. Dating, live, chastity stuff, bishop's interviews, seminary, things you're taught. To what extent did you have a normal versus a non normal kind of adolescent experience in Centerville? Is that where.

Adolescence and Life as a Molly Mormon

Kayla White [00:16:01] Centerville? Yeah, I would say it was very average. I had a. I guess I had some rough factors. We lived in a very rich neighborhood, but. Or ward boundary, I should say. But we weren't super well off. I mean, we weren't poor, but compared to Everyone else. And it definitely was like a class system. So I never had good friends in church or very few friends in church. But my mom was very. You go every Sunday, you know, no matter what. Like, no matter what. So we went every Sunday. And it got to a point short, I think, shortly after, when I was 15 or 16, so shortly after my Book of Mormon failure experiment. And I realized I didn't know if I believed because I never felt what I thought was the spirit. And so I remember where I was in my house, which is so random, but I was sitting on my stairs as this teenager, and I was just, like, contemplating life. And I realized, you know, even if it isn't true, it's a good religion. So I'm just gonna, like, keep going. Like, it makes my family happy. It's working for them. You know, I'll just fake it till I make it. I think is kind of what I thought in that moment.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] That's almost like gaslighting yourself, right? Right.

Kayla White [00:17:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] I mean, I don't know. I don't want to project, but.

Kayla White [00:17:12] No, for sure, for sure. And it's that, you know, indoctrination. Like, you know, this is what's gonna make me happiest. It's gonna make my kids happiest. It's gonna keep my family together, you know, all of these things. But. And I was really good in high school. I didn't break rules. I didn't, you know, do anything. I was classic, what you would call Molly Mormon, a hundred percent.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] So what did you do? Extracurricular activities? Did you have personal interests?

Kayla White [00:17:36] Yeah, I was on the winter guard team.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] What is that?

Kayla White [00:17:38] That's the flags. So, like, in the parade with a marching band, except you do it like a dance routine, so it's on a floor with music. And so I did winter guard for a lot of years.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Did you have a dancing background?

Kayla White [00:17:48] No, I can't dance at all. But it's more focused on, like, the flags and other instruments you use in it. But it was really, really fun and really good for me. Honestly, I needed that friend group. I was kind of a loser, so that was important. And I will say, my mom, bless her soul, I always tell my husband, there's my mom pre 2007, and my mom after 2007 and pre 2007, she was a little psycho. I think she would agree with me. And she, like, her big thing was modesty. And possibly because she had so many daughters, it was so important to her, but. But she definitely instilled a lot of body shame. That came with that, you know, if we went shopping with her, it was, you need to lean over and make sure your shirt doesn't gape. You know, raise your hands up, your midriff isn't showing. And it really, I think, shaped how I saw myself and my body. And it was a very, you know, something to be covered in, something to be, you know, that ashamed. Word of. Specifically at this experiments, we were experimental.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Experience.

Kayla White [00:18:51] Thank you. I had this experience. We were doing a color guard show. And this was when I was in ninth grade. And so in Utah, high school starts at 10th grade. But I was able to be on the high school color card team at ninth grade because everywhere else that's high school. And we were performing at the school's assembly and we were wearing, I think it was long, like legging type pants, but our shirts were like barely a cap sleeve. I mean, barely. And my mom told me she was gonna come and watch us in this performance. And it was my first. It was my first one I'd ever done as my little 14 year old self on the color guard team. And so we performed and we get off stage and my mom had to drive me back to the junior high. And we were looking for him. We couldn't find her. And we had to borrow someone's cell phone, which is so funny now, but we borrowed someone's cell phone. We call her like, hey, where are you? And she's like, oh, I'm coming. I was like, well, didn't you watch our show? And she told me, she was like, I couldn't support you while you were dressed. Immodestly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] So.

Kayla White [00:19:49] Oh my gosh, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Because of the cap sleeves?

Kayla White [00:19:52] Yes, because she didn't think the sleeves were long enough in on our uniforms. So.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] But she couldn't tell you that directly before.

Kayla White [00:20:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] And so she kind of just kind of passive aggressive.

Kayla White [00:20:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] In our culture and we don't talk about hard things.

Kayla White [00:20:06] Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I mean, maybe there was something else going on with her in that moment, but that's what she told us. And similarly, actually, because.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Wait, how did that make you feel?

Kayla White [00:20:15] Oh, terrible. I mean, as a 14 year old, I think number one, it was something I'd worked really hard at and I really wanted approval with. And obviously she wasn't able to give that and severe, like disappointment that she didn't come see me. My very first one. It was really terrible. So. And yeah, winter guard or color guard was the only time I ever wore anything near immodest. Because I was instilled. I mean, not to bed, never. Not even walking around the house. Nothing immodest. I didn't even own a tank top. And so we had a parade, and it was a similar thing. It was more of a tank top. It was a wide strap. And she came before and saw it to approve, and she was like, I guess that's okay. And she left. And somehow she got this weird miscommunication where she thought, it's going undershirt under it. I don't know. So I'm in The parade, the 4th of July parade in Centerville. And I'm marching my little heart out and do my little color guide routine. And she sees me coming, and my family's cheering. You know, my sisters are all there. And she starts screaming at me. And I just hear on the sidelines, she's like, kayla, you get out of that parade right now. You get over here. And she's freaking out. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, what do you do? Like, I'm 15 or 16 at this point, and I'm like, do I just, like, leave the parade? Like, I'm part of the formation? Like, I do things with a partner? And so I just kept walking. I was like. But I'm like. I have tears, like, streaming down my face as I'm in this parade. And I remember afterwards, she was so mad at me because I had worn this wide tank top that showed some shoulder, and that was like. She tried to pull me out of the parade over it. So modesty was definitely huge in my house. Really, really huge.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] And it's so hard because, you know, your mom may see this, and it's not like she's evil. She's just. She's just incorporated what she's learned, right?

Kayla White [00:22:10] Well, yeah, and she. She's a really great mom, but I really feel like, for some reason, modesty was her. Her tick. And maybe that was to protect us. Maybe she saw as a protection against men in their. Yeah, sinful ways.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] So how did that affect you and your thoughts about your own body and your sexuality and just all that stuff?

Kayla White [00:22:29] Yeah, it was terrible. I definitely. My mom gave me the sex talk one time, and it was kind of bare bones, very basic. I didn't know. I don't know how much I can say. I didn't know what an orgasm was until a senior in high school. And it's not like anyone specifically explained it to me. I just kind of had to, like, feel it out through movies or from what people mentioned or said. And, you know, I think maybe that again, like, I didn't know anything about birth control or anything like that. Besides just, again, the bare bones basic about what sex. And again, sex was taboo, not good. That's all I heard. Like, you don't do it. You're the gatekeeper. You know, you got to help the men. Like, we're less sexual beings, so you need to not, you know, I don't know. Do you know what I mean? So I kind of had this very instilled image of, you know, a woman and what they should be sexually. And that was basically, you know, you know, in the streets and everywhere you go, you have to present yourself very modest, but then you're expected in the bedroom to be something different. And I remember thinking once I got married, then, then that would make sense and the switch would flick. And it definitely played a big part of my marriage and, you know, my relationship with sex and how that incorporated into my marriage. It was really damaging to how I viewed myself and how I viewed sex. Because you can't just teach someone constantly that sex is bad and then think that switch is going to flip once they're married. Like, it doesn't work that way.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Right.

Kayla White [00:23:52] So.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] And I don't think even Mormon boys or men can understand what it's like as a teenage girl.

Kayla White [00:23:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] To have so much pressure and emphasis and focus on what you're wearing and what you're wearing because it's your body and because of the way that it can impact other people. So what's it like to have so much negative. What does it do to a Mormon teenage girl to have so much pressure and emphasis and negativity around the clothes you wear and the importance of covering up the body. Help us understand what. What. Why that might not be good or why that might be hard.

Kayla White [00:24:31] I think it's terrible. It kind of makes you feel like you're inherently evil. You know, kind of like the Adam and Eve sereno. Eve was the one who led it. And I just. I always felt that pressure to be very, very careful what I was wearing. I mean, I can't give you a specific example, but my mom would even warn us, you know, with adult men, you know, as teenagers, like, you don't want to attract adult men's eyes. Like, you don't want to be showing yourself off for them. And my mom would always say, you know, like, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? And those kind of really damaging phrases.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Meaning what?

Kayla White [00:25:00] You know, if you're going to put out why, why is anyone going to marry you? Like if you're going to. And not in that, the unworthiness aspect of it, but again, just that if I can get for free, I'm not going to be in a relationship with you. I'll just leave. And it was really, really damaging to how I viewed myself because again, I think I felt always inherently evil. You know, my body was something to be desired and tempting and making people want to sin and preventing them possibly from going to the afterlife or, you know, to a kingdom in heaven because of something I could control. And so I was very, again, just very careful with what I wore and how I presented myself to everyone.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] So you're like always having to worry about what people are thinking, what you're giving off.

Kayla White [00:25:40] Yeah. And I mean, our physical bodies, you should not put that much attention on them.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] It's too much attention.

Kayla White [00:25:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] Much focus.

Kayla White [00:25:47] So much focus. And it was, it's terribly hard as a teenager. Like, it definitely gave me some body dysmorphia. And again, it, it drastically affected my marriage and again, my family was even. I mean, we had so, so many strict rules about sexuality with dating.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Like what?

Kayla White [00:26:03] Like no laying down next to each other, obviously. No being alone, except like in the car because you can't prevent that. But like, no being alone. My mom wouldn't allow us to study date in high school, but I broke that rule, so that's probably why she didn't trust me. No French kissing, because my mom thought that was passionate kissing. And nothing should enter your body from the man until you're married, clearly. So, I mean, it was very clear cut, strict lines. If you want to make it to the temple, then you better not be flirting with that line. Like, you're gonna be in trouble. So.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] So how'd you navigate that as a teenage girl?

Kayla White [00:26:34] Oh, I did pretty good overall. I French kissed my senior year, actually, with my super Molly Mormon boyfriend. One of the reasons we broke up is he was too Mormon for me, surprisingly. But besides that, I mean, I was very careful up and up until I met my husband, so.

John Dehlin [00:26:51] Okay.

Kayla White [00:26:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Anything else about your high school years that are important part of your story and, and you know, some of the videos you, you've created or some of the messages you've been sharing, Not a whole lot.

Kayla White [00:27:03] I feel like my story really starts after those years. I always tell my husband. Now I'm like, I hate looking back on Mormon me because there's so many things I would done differently. I mean, I didn't know anything about the LGBTQ community at all until shortly after I graduated. I mean, I barely even knew it was a thing that girls liked girls or boys liked girls, let alone had sexual intercourse together. My mom really frowned on that. She was very. She once told me if she had a kid turn out to be gay, she would just lock herself in her room for a month. And I remember that just really cutting me. I was like, oh, like, that must be really terrible thing to be like. But again, I didn't even really understand it. And it definitely was presented in a way where, you know, people who are gay, they only want sex. Like, it's not about relationships. It's just the physical aspect. And so that's how I saw it. I was like, these people are just. Especially after having such a strict sexual upbringing, you know, hearing that these people are just out there, like, throwing themselves around, I was like, oh, no wonder why that's so terrible.

Staying on the Mormon Path Through High School

John Dehlin [00:28:04] So in terms of the types of, you know, doubts that current Mormons have, you know, truth claim stuff, Book of Mormon stuff, Book of Abraham stuff. Up till graduating in high school, had you had any exposure to any kind of controversial, critical or anti Mormon kind of things at all?

Kayla White [00:28:23] No, no. Once I decided to stick with it, I do feel like I started gaining that testimony. I think anytime you fake it till you make it, you might end up making it. And so I never maybe was super sure. And again, my super Molly Mormon boyfriend helped with, like, me gaining that testimony. I mean, I considered going on a mission and I became, again, just really active in church. I think I became like the Laurel President at some point.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] And that's an honor, right?

Kayla White [00:28:47] Yeah, I guess I found it really stressful because I was supposed to pray and find these counselors. And again, I just received nothing. And I prayed and I prayed and I cried and I begged God and I went outside so I could talk out loud because I thought maybe that would help. And I think I just ended up picking names. I'm like, yeah, sure, I guess. I guess that's who it should be.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] That's what everybody does, actually.

Kayla White [00:29:09] I think so. I think so. By the time I was expecting the heavens to open and God to give me this great answer to who I can make into this presidency. So. But yeah, I definitely, by the time I graduated, I was very firmly both feet in seeing my life.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] Classic Mormon on the Mormon train.

Kayla White [00:29:28] All aboard.

Relationships, Marriage, and Family Disapproval

John Dehlin [00:29:31] So what happens next?

Kayla White [00:29:32] Okay, so right after I graduated high school, I broke up with my Mormon

John Dehlin [00:29:36] boyfriend because he was too Mormon. What does that mean?

Kayla White [00:29:39] And he lived in Nevada, and I Lived in Utah, which obviously the distance was crazy. And he was preparing for a mission. And he would go days without calling me because he would just forget because he'd be so busy, you know, doing missionary work or studying, I don't know, the gospel. And so it got to a point we were planning on going to BYU Idaho together in the fall. And so. But we won't be able to see each other all summer. And he kind of just blew me off one day and was like, I think you should break up. We're not gonna see each other all summer. And then once you come, his birthday was in January, so he's like, we'd only have one semester together, and then I'd be on my mission and like, what's the point? And it was really soul crushing. And I was like, oh, okay. And it was terrible. And of course, you know, when that happened, I called my best friend at the time, whose name is Greg, and, you know, I cried to him and he took me out. And we had been best friends, I guess, not a super long time. Probably good six months at that point. And he took me out for hot cocoa. I did sneak out of the house. I was such a rebel. And while we were sitting there, I was like, I think I like Greg. And I was like, oh, well, like, that's crazy. He's my best friend. Like, no, no. And so. But two weeks after that, we started dating.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] So now, had Greg gone on a mission?

Kayla White [00:30:49] No. So he was the eldest in our class, and I was actually the youngest because of how California works. I graduated at 17. And so. And he was 18 at that point, almost 19. And so he actually wasn't super active. He grew up in a very faithful family. But at that point, he just. He wasn't going. Wasn't interested, didn't care. And so. And again, I just got this relationship where I gained this huge testimony. I was this Molly Mormon. And so I was like, doing things like, come to my house and we'll read scriptures together and all these things. And so he decided to come back to the church for me. We got serious really fast because we had been best friends before. But remember, we're also really young. I graduate 17 and he's barely 18. And like, two months in, we were talking about getting married because you can't do anything physically, and we live in Utah. And so he realized he had some things he needed to work out with the bishop. And so he started working on those things, which was really. I had a moment when he first told me he had, you Know, issues he had to work out. I remember being like really sad and I went to my room, I laid in my bed and I was like, does he deserve me? And that sounds so terrible, but I'm like, I've lived my life clean and worked so hard and like, you know, he's tainted. And so as this like 17 year old having to accept the fact that my boyfriend, who I'm very serious with at this point is tainted by sin

John Dehlin [00:32:15] and his purity culture.

Kayla White [00:32:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Dirty. He's soiled.

Kayla White [00:32:18] Yes. And it only took me about an hour sitting on my bed before I was like, no, like there's the atonement. He can get better and move on and it's going to be good. And so we obviously move forward with our relationship. And he went to the bishop and got it worked out. I remember when he became worthy to do baptisms again, we went to the temple together and it was very exciting. Yeah. And so we, we did pretty good with our relationship and staying clean.

John Dehlin [00:32:45] He proposed, meaning to those who don't

Kayla White [00:32:49] know what that means, not toeing the line, not having sex. I mean, even more as I'm not

John Dehlin [00:32:52] petting, which means what?

Kayla White [00:32:54] I mean, touching each other appropriately, not doing anything like that at all.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] Right.

Kayla White [00:33:00] And so we got engaged on our one year dating anniversary. So we made it a long time, people. Yeah, it was a long time, especially for Mormon culture. But so we got engaged when I was 18, so just a tiny, tiny baby because, you know, we wanted to move in together, we wanted to do these things which meant we had to get married. Like that was the only option. And so we started moving forward and my mom was very angry with me because I remember to jump back a little bit. Why I introduced her to Greg for the first time as my boyfriend. I mean, he'd been my friend, but she didn't know him hardly at all. Maybe seen him once or twice. And he came over and we said, hey, and this is Greg. And we went on our date and she calls me in the middle of the date, she's like, you need to come home right now. And I was like, well, we're watching a movie, can it wait? And she was like, no, you need to come home right now. I was like, what did I do? Like, what is happening? And so I went, I went home and her and my stepdad pulled me up to their room and sat me down, looked very sternly at me and they said, we're not going to allow you to date Greg anymore. And I was like, wait, what? I was like, why? And they're like. They're like, because he is a gang member. And I was like, okay. And so my head. I was like, tom. I was combo. I remember specifically asking, why do you think Greg is a gang member? And like, well, he was wearing a band T shirt.

John Dehlin [00:34:26] And I was like, like who?

Kayla White [00:34:28] It was Rascal Flats. So the most appropriate band in the history of the world is that kind of expl. I'm like, that's Rascal Flats. And they are very appropriate. They're a country band. Like, this isn't some hard rock thing. And they're like, oh, well. He was wearing a chain. And I was like, yeah, he had like the chain that connected to your wallet. It was kind of cool then. So I was like, yeah, it connected his wallet. And their final reasoning of why he was in a gang was he wore jewelry. And I was like, right. Because he works at a Cub Scout day camp during the day, so he displays all of their, like, purchase items. Like, it's what he does. He just doesn't take it off when he gets home. And so they finally decide he wasn't a gang member. But they never approved of our relationship. I think they still. Because he wasn't super active. He wasn't clean cut. You know, he had the longer hair and the shaggy beard. He wore black.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] He didn't go on a mission.

Kayla White [00:35:21] He didn't go on a mission. And so they definitely did not approve. And so Greg and I didn't spend hardly any time with my family because they just didn't like him. And it was all, again, based on his appearance and based on the fact they went on mission. And.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] And he wasn't like, I'm wondering what Mormon boys in Centerville, what gangs are Mormons? White Mormon boys in Centerville joining?

Kayla White [00:35:42] I have no idea. But they were like, convinced. Dead set convinced. And it took me, I think, a good week or two before they were like, fine. I guess it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] I mean, that's. It's motivated reasoning. It's like they didn't like him because he didn't fit the ultimate Mormon right mold. So they're just coming up with reasons.

Kayla White [00:36:00] Oh, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Because they didn't. They didn't like, Right.

Kayla White [00:36:02] They needed a good excuse to have him kick the curb.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] So what'd you guys do? Did you.

Kayla White [00:36:07] So we get engaged.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] You got engaged? We did get a year in.

Kayla White [00:36:10] A year in. And we told his family right away and they were all very, very excited for us. But I actually waited 24 hours to tell my family because I Was like, is. It's not gonna be a pretty thing. And so I remember we walked into the kitchen and my mom was there. My heart. Oh, my gosh, my heart's pounding just thinking about it. And I was, like, sweating. I was like, okay, because also, I'm 18, so I'm a baby. Like, I look at 18 year olds now and I'm like, you don't know anything about life. But I thought I had it figured out. And so we walked into the kitchen and I was like, hey, we're engaged. I just, like, held up, you know, our little ring we could afford. And we just stood there and my mom just, like, looked at us and. And to her credit, I don't know what she was thinking, but she put a smile on and just, just. I think she was just kind of like, oh, that's cool.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Good.

Kayla White [00:37:03] Like, there was no hugging. There was no, like, oh, my gosh. Like, it was like, well, we're eating pizza tonight if you want to have some.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] She faked it till she made it.

Kayla White [00:37:12] Yes, yes. And so the next day then became this couple months of them obviously trying to talk me out of it, which I can understand the youngness part being an issue. I think if my daughter came to me 18, I'd be like, no, you're not. You're not getting married. What are you thinking? But they focused instead, I think, on this religious aspect. And so the next day, after we had told her, she sat me down, my sweet mom. And she was like, I don't think you should marry Greg. And I was like, yeah, figured. And her big reasoning, which was such a. A low blow at the time, and even now, she said, well, your stepdad who works in the temple, you know, he was working last night and your dad came to him and told him that you. You should not marry Greg. And I remember being like, what? I'm like, did you really just say that? And so we got into this really heated argument. I ran away and I called Greg. And it was, like, so traumatizing to hear.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Do you think that really happened or they made that up?

Kayla White [00:38:11] I have no idea. I've thought about that moment a lot, and I just. I don't know if it was like a last stitch attempt or to play at my heartstrings or what they thought was going to come from that, or if he really did believe he saw him and this happened. I don't know. But it was really, really traumatizing to think, you know, my. Because I believed, you know, in the temple that that's where spirits can come back. And. And I've always believed in ghosts and all that thing. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, like, what if my dad is, like, on the other side and not approving, like, how terrible. And then, you know, I prayed about marrying Greg, but again, never gotten an answer. And so I'm like, well, crap. Like, am I not supposed to marry this guy? And. And it put me into this turmoil.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] The other thing is when somebody pulls that stuff. Like, I have a dear friend, a family member, whose son died.

Kayla White [00:38:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] And someone walks up to him at the wake and says, hey, your son came to me, and he says he's fine, and he wants me to tell you he's fine. Yeah. And I'm like, if I had a son die, I would want the son to come to me.

Kayla White [00:39:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Like, why, Rando in my steak or war? To send me a message.

Kayla White [00:39:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] It is a little bit. It feels a little bit abusive to be able to tell somebody who's vulnerable whose loved one has died. I'm the one that the loved one's coming to.

Kayla White [00:39:28] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] And let me tell you what they. What message they have for you. Right. I'm not saying your mom or stepdad were bad people at all, but that. That's. That's really fraught. I hate that.

Kayla White [00:39:38] Yeah. And it was really emotional.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] Did you wonder, why didn't dad come to be?

Kayla White [00:39:41] Yeah. Again, I was like, well, I don't know. And I think I kind of just decided in the end, I'm like, that can't be true. Like, I can't have this fantastic relationship with this guy, you know, where we were friends, and then we've dated all this time, and we're getting married. Like, I can't imagine that being true. And I think it was extra hard coming from my stepdad because we didn't have a good relationship at that point. We had almost none, honestly, besides, like, fighting, we didn't have a relationship. So I'm like, why would he choose someone I have such a terrible relationship with to give me this message? That doesn't make any sense. So there was that experience, and then the other time I can specifically remember is my mom had somehow figured out Greg had to go the bishop to repent for whatever, and she was just really mad about that. And she was driving me to work early one morning, and she was like, you know what? This has always stuck with me. She's like, you know what? People who've messed up need to marry people who have messed up. And I'll be Like, what about the atonement? Like. And that's why I told her at

John Dehlin [00:40:37] the time, I was like, he should marry a girl who lost her virginity.

Kayla White [00:40:40] Yes. Like, if you have. If you have messed up with someone, then you shouldn't marry someone who's clean and pure like I am.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] If you're damaged goods, you should marry someone who's damaged goods.

Kayla White [00:40:48] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] If you're pure, you should marry someone who's pure.

Kayla White [00:40:51] Exactly. And it was really, really hard for me because I was like, no, but the atonement, like, doesn't it make it, like, it didn't happen? And I tried to say that, and she kind of just brushed me off, and I had to go to work. And it was this really hard conversation. And we had lots of conversations about how he didn't go on a mission. My mom was very upset about that. It was not okay. Which is super funny, because my dad, they got married young. He didn't go. My stepdad didn't go on a mission. And so it always felt so hypocritical. But again, I think part of that is that all my siblings had done it. You know, I had three sisters and married at that point, and they'd all married, you know, go to BYU and married returned missionaries. And, you know, I got accepted into byui, like I had said, and supposed to go, and I ended up going to Weber State instead because I wanted to stay by Greg because we were dating. And, you know, I just. I think Greg was the epitome, I think, to my parents, of me not following what I should be doing, you know, not going to byui, not marrying a returned missionary. And. And once my mom found out that Greg had had messed up in some way, she assumed, I'm sure it was sex. And she started asking me if I was pregnant all the time. Anytime I was like, I don't. I don't feel good. She's like, you're pregnant, aren't you? And I was like, whoa. Unless I'm the Virgin Mary, not a possibility. Not a possibility at this point. So. But always having those accusations were, like, really hard because I was, you know, I felt like even though Greg didn't go on a mission, like, we were still working towards the temple, and, you know, he was getting things fixed and he was getting the Melchizedek priesthood, you know, taking the right steps. But I kind of always had that layer of doubt just because of whatever passed. And she didn't even know. She even didn't even know what Greg's past was, but she Just assumed. And that was really hard. I will say an important part of me and Greg being together is before we were married. We got married in April, I think in December or January. We started, like, towing that line with the physical stuff. We never, like, touched each other, but there was, like, a lot of making out and laying on top of each other with our clothes on. And I felt so guilty about it. And so I was like, we gotta stop. Like, this is. This is way too close to tone that, I mean, might have even crossed it. And so I was like, no, no, no. And so we talked about it. I was like, do you think we need to go the bishop? And we kind of both decided, like, no, we can just, like, stop. And we did, and we stopped, didn't do anything further from that point on, and repented ourselves. But I always felt such guilt about that because my whole life I had not done anything, anything except French kissing. And so to toe that line even a little bit was. It really made me feel uneasy. It really made me be like, maybe we should have just gone. But then, you know, the wedding's coming and you're busy and, you know, you're looking to get your endowment out, and I just. We. We just handled it on our own. And it's definitely something that. That followed me the rest of my years until I left. Meaning what? That we didn't go and repent to the bishop?

John Dehlin [00:43:35] That you maybe weren't worthy.

Kayla White [00:43:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Even though you were probably more worthy than most.

Kayla White [00:43:40] Than most. 100%.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] Yeah.

Kayla White [00:43:42] I have many friends with stories way worse. But, yeah, I. I was always so paranoid of being worthy enough because when you're not feeling the spirit like other people appear to be, I always assumed it must be, I'm not living righteously enough. I'm not reading my scriptures enough, I'm not praying enough. And. And I walked around with all this guilt, like, you know, I. Praying, and I'm not getting answers. So what did I do wrong? Like, it kind of always went back to, okay, so what sin is God holding on to that I haven't repented for yet? Which was such a toxic way to live your life, always being like, well, what terrible thing could I have possibly done that would make God not want to talk to me, you know?

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Yeah.

Kayla White [00:44:20] So, yeah, that definitely, definitely plays a role as we get later on into it.

Temple Marriage and the Endowment Experience

John Dehlin [00:44:25] So you guys did get married in the temple.

Kayla White [00:44:27] Yes. So we actually got our endowment out together because Greg didn't go on a mission. And so it was really cool. We got to do it together. And I remember leading up to the temple, I was like, this is amazing. Like, we get experiences together. And I was almost grateful you had to go on a mission at that point because I always was jealous the men knew the secrets before the girls. But Greg, sucker, you're getting in with me. And I remember we did the initiatory stuff, and I didn't have a problem with that. I actually really liked that part of it.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Should we show the video? Should we show your video first?

Kayla White [00:44:54] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Okay. So Kayla, or ex Mormon Mindy did do a video of her first temple experience. Do you. Is there anything you want to say to set this up?

Kayla White [00:45:05] Yeah, no. I decided to sit down one day, and I do try really hard to not be. I told the line with not going into the temple stuff too much. I'm actually not wearing. I'm wearing my temple dress. But the rest of it's just, like, random fabric I found that looked similar.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] Not total real temple.

Kayla White [00:45:20] No, no, no, no. And I actually put that in my comments because I was like, oh, my gosh. I don't want to be, like, reamed for wearing actual temple clothes. Like, I don't wear actual garments. It's just like an undershirt anyways. But I really want to put this out there because I think part of the reason actually was did anyone else feel this way? Like, did anyone else go and not have that? Oh, my gosh. It's just great and awesome and wonderful

John Dehlin [00:45:42] and so it represents what you felt.

Kayla White [00:45:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] When you went the first time.

Kayla White [00:45:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] Yeah. And I think almost everyone has this similar, very similar experience. So here is ex Mormon Mindy or Kayla White in her two minute Tick Tock video, sort of portraying her reactions to the temple the first time she went through that, right?

Kayla White [00:46:02] Yep, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] Okay, so here it is.

Kayla White [00:46:05] Oh, my gosh. I finally get to know what happens in the temple. Oh, Nelly, I am not ready. I gotta get out of here. Oh, no, no, I'm okay. I can do this. Okay, so women sit over here and men sit over there. Here we go. I am ready to know all the secrets I've waited my entire life for. Oh, it's a movie about the creation. All right. You know, Adam's not that bad looking. Oh, but Satan, he's got it going on. Oh, wait, what's happening now? Wait, what am I supposed to do? Why am I taking off my shoes? And. And this goes where exactly? Okay, what is up with the handshakes? I am never going to remember all of this. There is no way Well, I did it. What the hell was that? Yep.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] So as you watch it now, go ahead and tell what it was really like.

Kayla White [00:47:10] Okay. It was.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] I mean, other than that.

Kayla White [00:47:12] I mean, again, the temple growing up with the eternal families aspect was so important. And I remember I honestly thought, like, there was gonna be some big mystery, like some big answer that was gonna be like, amazing and life changing or

John Dehlin [00:47:25] that it's gonna be deeply inspirational. Yes. Like you'll feel the most powerful spirit you've ever felt.

Kayla White [00:47:29] Yes. And, you know, it's interesting as I've gotten comments on that video from people like, oh, my parents told me, you know, basically everything that happens. And it was, no, like, you do not talk about it. I think my mom got, like, my packet items. Like, I didn't see anything beforehand, so I was real shocked. And again, the initiatory part I thought was beautiful. Like, I'm like, okay, I'm blessed. And. And I remember there's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] So did you go. When I went in the initiators, you wore like a poncho. It was like the silk poncho that had no sides.

Kayla White [00:47:57] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] And so there's a sheet coming in front and a sheet in back. And you're totally naked. And then you're all naked from the side. And if anybody's seeing you walk by, they're seeing everything. And then when you. When you're doing the initiatory, they're. They're putting oil and they're touching different parts of your body and they're reaching into the poncho and touching different private parts of your body. But then at some point, they, they. We made a big enough stink about this that they realized that was kind of sexually predatory.

Kayla White [00:48:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:27] And so they sewed up the poncho. So when you went through, it was sewed up on the sides. Okay. You're lucky. You actually had it better.

Kayla White [00:48:34] Yeah. Yeah. Which is probably why I appreciate it a little more. But I remember I really clung to line. I think it says you are clean every here with. Or something. And again with me feeling so guilty about, you know, our Levi loving or whatever. It was like, okay, like it was said in the temple, that has to be true. Like, I have to be okay. Right. And so then we go into the actual ceremony, and I remember being so disappointed I couldn't sit by Greg. I'm like, wait, we gotta do it together. Like, what's he doing over there in the temple?

John Dehlin [00:49:03] You're separated.

Kayla White [00:49:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] You're separated from men on one side, women on the other.

Kayla White [00:49:06] Yeah. Men and women on their different sides, and that was so disappointing. But, you know, you go through the ceremony, and I remember everything I said being frantic, like, panicked. I am never gonna remember all this. You know, why. Why are we doing these weird things? Why does it matter what shoulder this thing is on? And, you know, before I got in, I think the only word of advice I got was, like, focus on how you feel. Like, focus how the temple makes you feel. And so I tried really hard. And, you know, I think always in the temple, it does feel quiet and peaceful because that's the atmosphere. It's clean and bright and beautiful. So I could kind of just focus on that. But. But I definitely was super disappointed. I was like, there was nothing. Nothing for me there. I. I did not like it. I felt super betrayed, almost like this is what I've worked so hard to be clean for and worthy for was this.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] You did feel that way.

Kayla White [00:49:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] And you're willing to admit it to yourself.

Kayla White [00:50:00] You know, it took me a while, but I definitely was like, that was weird. And I'd heard a story right before I went where someone's daughter went through and, like, are we in a cult? And so I guess maybe that prepared me a little bit. But, yeah, it's definitely like, oh, okay. But your. Your family's there. Because I remember they gave you an option for your first time through, where they're like, you know, if you're not ready to take these whatever covenants upon yourself, you know, leave. And I had this moment where I was like, I should go. Like, I should not be here. And part of it was the feeling guilty, and I think part of it was also just not feeling ready. You know, I was super young, but at that point we got our endowments on the 12th and were married the 17th, so we had five days. And I was like, well, I can't. I can't leave. Like, my family's here. Greg's whole family's here because it's his first time, and there's all this pressure. We're getting married, and I'm like, I can't leave. Like, even. Even though I wanted to, I knew it wasn't possible.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] And part of what makes it kind of serious or insidious is that you make covenants in the temple that are super serious. Like, you know, law of chastity, obviously, but. But the big one's a law of consecration, and they literally make you raise your arm and say, raise your arm to the square and promise that you'll give everything to the Church of Jesus. Christ of Latter Day Saints, your time, your talents, your money. And then it, even when I went through it said even your own lives if necessary for the building up of the kingdom. Like that's a crazy sort of ask for an 18 year old when you're not given informed consent and told ahead of time what you're committing to. So it's weird that they do give you that out without telling you what you're about to experience and then they lay these super intense commitments on you. Yeah, that it's basically saying you're going to give your life over to the church forever until you die.

Kayla White [00:51:50] Yeah, yeah. And I was 19 at the time and I was just like, what? No. And I remember that line. I was like, I don't know, would I be willing to die for the church? And the one that got me, which is so funny, is that, you know, no loud laughter.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Yeah, it says no loud laughter or evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. So like, I mean, you have a loud voice, you like to laugh, right? So do I. You can't laugh loudly ever again. And you can never criticize a church leader ever. Like that's a crazy commitment, right? Uh huh.

Kayla White [00:52:24] And I, again, I'm a very loud person. I'm very outgoing person. I laugh. I have a terrible laugh. It's super loud. And I remember multiple times after going to the temple I would laugh and be like, am I sinning somehow? Like that was so loud and obnoxious. But yeah. And again I remember I got home that night just being like, what? And I think I just banked on, you know, the more you go, it'll make sense. The more, you know, it'll become more comfortable. It'll, it'll work itself out.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] It's the self gaslighting again. It's like it, it can't be culty and weird because it's the Lord's true church, so it must be me. And if I just keep doing the thing that feels awful and awkward and weird, cultish somehow I'll feel better about it.

Kayla White [00:53:07] Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I just don't understand. As I get older, it'll come to me. I believe that.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] What about the feminist stuff of like the woman hearkening to the man, that the man covenants with God and the woman covenants with the man? And I think they've taken that out in the past couple years, but it

Kayla White [00:53:21] was there when I was there.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] Did that bug you or. No, it's not worse. I think that might be worse, like for some Mormon women, they don't even notice that the man covenants with God and the woman covenants with the man because the man is your inner. And you didn't even notice.

Kayla White [00:53:37] I didn't even notice. I think I was so shell shocked. And remember, I have a sister who's. She's active still, but she's very feminist. And she mentioned it to me. She's like, well, doesn't that bug you? And I was like, like, oh. But even then again, I, like, hate who I used to be. I was like, oh, I don't mind. I'm like, I trust Greg. I'm like, that's fine. Like, give it away then, you know, because I was like, I don't need responsibility. Like, I was. I was classic submissive woman. Which is funny because Greg isn't like that. Like with everything else, I mean, with everything. I was always the one taking the lead. But for some reason I thought with this, he can, he can handle it. But yeah, I. It didn't bother me. I was totally fine with being a woman in the church for a long, long, long time almost the entire time. Right, right. I was good with my little don't. Because I don't want to lead. I'm not a leader. And so I was like, oh, this means I can't, you know, I won't have too much responsibility put on me, especially where I didn't feel like I felt the spirit very much.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] Yeah.

Kayla White [00:54:30] I didn't feel in a position where I could even lead. Anyways.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] Okay, so anything else about the temple or is that that it? Pretty much.

Kayla White [00:54:36] We can talk about my marriage.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, no, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Kayla White [00:54:39] Yeah, yeah.

Temple Garments and Cups Parody Video

John Dehlin [00:54:39] And garments. We gotta throw garments in. Do we. Do we talk about that now or later?

Kayla White [00:54:44] Whenever.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] I mean, you, you, you have to wear the garment.

Kayla White [00:54:47] Right, Right. And I was told 24 7.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Okay, so set up, set up the garment video with whatever your temple.

Kayla White [00:54:52] Sure. So I mean, it's just actually, are you showing the cups one? I think that's the one we decided on.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Yeah. Yeah.

Kayla White [00:54:58] So I made a video where I mentioned garments in my ex Mormon rap, actually. And people had so many questions. And so I was like, okay, well, I can.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] Were they mad at that first video?

Kayla White [00:55:08] Yes. People thought they were real garments. And I had gone to Di, actually. Thanks, Di, for sponsoring. And I just bought like some long underwear or long johns and cut them at the knees and then wore a shirt. Like, it did not look like garments at all. I don't know why people thought it was, but whatever. And so anyway, so I. People so angry. And I kept responding. I'm like, it's not real garments. Because I do try and be as respectful as I can handle. And so I was like, it's not real garments. It's not real garments anyways. But that sparked interest in people because in that video, I walk in after going to the temple for the first time, and I look very, like, shell shocked, like I did. And then I take off my dress and I'm wearing my fake garments. And I was just like, my face in that video, I'm just like, well. And I say, this is what it looks like. And I. I had that moment. Except it was in the temple because that's where you put on your garments for the first time. And where they told me to go in and change into my garments. And I sat there and I held the bag in my hand, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I will never wear real underwear. Like, this is the moment. And it was this, like, thing for me. I'm like, okay, here we are. So anyways, I decided to answer the questions about the garments, and I decided to do it in a song because I want to make it entertaining. So I came up with this song. It's Anna Kendrick's Cups from Pitch Perfect and change the words to fit garments and what they're about. And it's actually very factual. People think it's Mormon TikTok when they see it. And I always have to remind them, like, not for you. Ex Mormon. Ex Mormon. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] All right, so here it is. Here's ex Mormon Mindy's video on garments set to the tune of Cups, right?

Kayla White [00:56:49] I heard you had some questions bout garments. I hope this song will answer some. They are basically long underwear the church requires members to wear. I wish they were sexy, but they're not. They are white and have sleeves and they go down to your knees. You get them in the temple, we swear to always wear them as a reminder of your covenants to God. You have to wear them 24 7. Unless one of these applies. You are swimming, you are sweating, you're making sweet love to your spouse. Then it's okay to take them on. They are hot and uncomfy and they're bulky under clothes. But there is one perk to wearing them. You can pick a wedgie real easy just by pulling on your pant leg.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] That's so awesome.

Kayla White [00:57:51] I know. And it's factual 100%. And say anything that was not true.

Building an Audience on TikTok

John Dehlin [00:57:56] Okay, so I want to. We're gonna have to Jump back and forth between your story and some questions about TikTok, because so. So pause your story. There's so many things that's going on there that I think is so cool. So you're. You're cheery, you're kind of acting, you're singing, You. You have to write a song. You have to pick a song, you have to write the lyrics. You're doing the cup thing and you're. And you're trying to make important points. There's a lot that's going into that.

Kayla White [00:58:24] So much.

John Dehlin [00:58:25] And you. Oh, and also you're having to decide how inappropriate am I going to be? And you're dealing with the topic that's so sensitive. Like. Like, you know, 100 years ago, people feared death, like, literally being killed if they revealed secrets in the Mormon temple. And so that's a lot of load, I'm going to say. And that's why I find that's kind of why I want to highlight TikTokers, because there's a lot going on there. It's not just like, sit down and interview somebody.

Kayla White [00:58:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] It's a. It's a pretty complex, intense, creative.

Kayla White [00:58:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Effort.

Kayla White [00:58:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:56] Talk about that.

Kayla White [00:58:57] Oh, that's what drew me to TikTok. I am an actress. Like, I'm in plays. Me and my husband both, we've done plays together.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] Did you learn high school? You didn't mention that.

Kayla White [00:59:04] Yeah, I. I didn't make the school play in high school. Thanks for bringing it up. But my husband did. That's where we met. I was the assistant director.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] Okay.

Kayla White [00:59:12] So he was in the play, and that's where we met. But since, you know, since then, we've been in two plays and again, multiple plays apart. And Vernal. Yeah. In Vernal.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] And what's the playhouse in Vernal?

Kayla White [00:59:21] It's Vernal Theater Live.

John Dehlin [00:59:23] Okay.

Kayla White [00:59:23] And they're fantastic. We love them.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] But, you know, musicals is like, they

Kayla White [00:59:27] do musicals and plays, and I've never done a musical. I don't actually think I sing well. But you do.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] It's fun. You do sing well. At least for comedy.

Kayla White [00:59:35] Right. I think it's good enough for TikTok, so it's fine. But. Yeah. And so I had been doing YouTube, actually, for a long time. I started back in 2015, just family channel. We're those crazy white people.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Okay.

Kayla White [00:59:47] Because our last name is White. Oh, that's why. So we've been vlogging for a long time, but it wasn't super creative. You know, I'm just filming My family. And I was looking for a more creative outlet in a way again to reach ex Mormons. Oh, I don't know how much you want me go into this. So I did actually, on my family Channel conference weekend this Last April, so April 2020, I announced to the world that we'd left the church through a YouTube video on my family vlogging channel. And I actually filmed myself going through the process. Like, I filmed myself, you know, a little bit about why I decided to leave and then leaving and, you know, filming myself before I told my family and then talking about the reactions. And so I wanted to document it because I felt like at the time, there was so much content about what it looked like after you left or why you should leave, but it didn't tell you why, like, what it felt like. You know, what did it actually look like and feel like? And what do people say? And. And I looked for that so hard when I considered leaving, because I was like, what is this afterlife, you know, after Mormonism? What. What does that look like?

John Dehlin [01:00:48] We'll come back to that. But, yeah. You're saying that led to the TikTok?

Kayla White [01:00:51] Yes, that led to the TikTok. Because.

John Dehlin [01:00:52] Why?

Kayla White [01:00:53] Why? Well, I did it on YouTube for a long time, and my goal with YouTube actually, was to be able to have Mormons be able to watch it as well and feel super comfortable. And I tried really hard, and I thought I was doing a good job. I actually had a sister get after me one time about how I was being so inappropriate, and it actually stemmed from a video. The first time we went back to church was at a baby blessing, and I was worried about the effect it'd have on my kids. And anyways, we ended up having this conversation about how girls couldn't go up and bless the baby because they had asked why the mom hadn't gone up. And it was this great, powerful moment for my kids to kind of see one of the flaws that they could understand because they're quite young, of why we left. And I was so proud of them for realizing that. And my sister told me I was teaching them to, you know, hate other religions and, you know, kind of teaching them intolerance because I didn't explain why women weren't allowed to hold the priesthood. And anyways, it was a really hard conversation, and it was terrible. And so I stopped on YouTube and. But I still. I was still searching for community. I still wanted to find people who felt like I did, who had been through similar experiences. And my sister had done tick tock and so I started a tick tock just to follow her. And she had actually done some ex Mormon tick tocks. And I was like, this is great. And I realized no one in my family or my husband's family was on TikTok. And so it became like a safe space at that time where I'm like, I can come on here. I don't have to use my real name. I can be anonymous and just kind of make these funny tiktoks about things that traumatized me. So.

John Dehlin [01:02:15] Okay.

Kayla White [01:02:15] And it was, it just really played into those strengths of being a character. Like they're all real experiences, but for humor you just amplify them. And so I got to know, act these out a little bit more amplified, a little bit more on the humorous side. And it was just, just, it was just great.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] It's a great medium. Well, it's a lot of work. I don't think people understand how much work goes into a two minute work into a two minute video. How much time do you think you spent preparing for that two minute video?

Kayla White [01:02:37] Oh, for that one, all the time.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Kind of costumes, lyrics, you know, rehearsal takes that gets scuttled.

Kayla White [01:02:46] Everything the writing the song took took the longest writing the words and you know, figuring how they fit into the cadence. And then I actually sang it into the microphone and then lip sang it when I recorded. And so. And I played the piano like just the one hand, but I'm so rusty. And so anyways, it took me take after take after take of trying to get the piano and sing the words and sing the words with attitude. You know, like, would I be acting out kind of to be in my head and then filming? I mean, probably that one took a good three hours to. Between writing and then recording and then filming. It was. And filming actually usually is the fastest part for me. It's the getting the song and then recording and then doing it.

John Dehlin [01:03:26] Yeah. So like a two minute video can take three, four, five hours to produce.

Kayla White [01:03:31] Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] I'm doing 10 minute YouTube videos and sometimes I spend three days. Like this tithing video that I released, I spent three full days to make a 15 minute YouTube video. So yes, it's a lot of work.

Kayla White [01:03:44] Social media, content. People definitely don't realize. Even with like our family channel, it's like you said, it can take hours and hours and hours to get it right.

Married Life, Judgment, and Church Culture

John Dehlin [01:03:53] Okay, so you guys get married in the temple, start wearing garments. How does life go from there?

Kayla White [01:03:57] So I did want to mention one thing about my marriage because I'm so curious if anyone else experienced this. My, Like, I said my stepdad worked in the temple, and he was like, I have the best news. And he was so excited to tell me. He was really sweet about it. And he's like, because I work in the temple, the temple president is going to marry you guys. And I was like, oh, okay. So the day comes, and we're actually seeing in the celestial room, and I still haven't gotten my answer if I should marry Greg. It's the day of my wedding. We've been engaged 10 months at this time. And so I remember in the celestial room, and I prayed, and I was like, if you don't want me to marry him, like, speak now or forever hold your peace, because there's nothing like, we're here. This is happening. And I didn't get an answer. And so I was like, okay, we're getting married. That's what's happening. So we go into a room with the temple president, and he kind of talks to us about what the ceremony will look like, because I'd never seen a temple wedding at that point. And he said something that I've learned is not common, having gone to other people's temple ceremonies. And he said, when I'm marrying you, you're going to kneel across the altar and, you know, do the grip. And he said, I don't want you to look at each other. And I was like, wait, what? And he's like, well, the ceremony is going on. He's like, you have the rest of your life to look at each other. He's like, during this. And you look at me because I'm representing God, and you need to remember that God needs to be in your marriage. And I remember being like, okay, so we. We're in the ceremony. We. We kneel down.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] So creepy.

Kayla White [01:05:15] I know. And I was like, how unromantic. As I'm, like, promising eternity to the love of my life. I'm, like, looking at the old dude like, it. And I have never seen a temple ceremony where they've had that instruction before. And so we're seeing her getting married, and my sweet husband was convinced if he broke that rule, our ceiling wouldn't count. And so he was, like, not looking away, and I was, like, sneaking glances and, like, trying to smile at him. And, yeah, he was like, stone cold. Didn't look at me once while we were getting married. And it was so scarring to me. It's like another temple experience. I'm like, I've been looking forward to this my entire life. And this is what I got. Like, I can't even look at my husband while I'm marrying him. And it was. It was terrible. And I've never seen that before or since.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] Interesting.

Kayla White [01:06:01] So I'm so curious what the thought process was.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] It's part of weird Mormon culture that there's weird side doctrines.

Kayla White [01:06:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:08] Little families or regions or certain temples may implement.

Kayla White [01:06:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] That are just kind of rogue. Rogue doctrine, you know?

Kayla White [01:06:16] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] But they can have a real impact. Yeah.

Kayla White [01:06:20] It was depressing, but, yeah, it's all right. It was like another. The thing where I'm like, well, that was fun. Like, I remember just being like, whatever. So we, you know, we get married, we start wearing garments. I didn't hate garments as much as I thought I would, but they're definitely not comfortable. They're definitely really bad for women's health. I don't think that's something that's ever talked about because they're so enclosed, like, it doesn't give any breathing room. And I suffered with, like.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Like the bottom.

Kayla White [01:06:46] The bottom part. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, yeast infections. Yeast infections, right.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Yeah. Margaret. Margi.

Kayla White [01:06:51] So much. And again, my family was very strict on their outlook of garments. I don't know if that was a cultural thing with us or if other people experience that. But, like, I wore them when I exercised. I. I mean, basically swimming and sex and showering was the only time I took them off. And you put them right back on, like, as. As soon as possible. And so as much as I didn't hate them, they were.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] You wore them exercising?

Kayla White [01:07:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] That is so crazy.

Kayla White [01:07:13] I know.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] Utah. Like, summers are hot here.

Kayla White [01:07:15] So hot. And now I'm like, what was I thinking? But that was one of the things I used to judge people for. I'd be like, I'm suffering wearing my garments because I remember. I don't know where this thought came from. I'm sure someone said it to me, like, what if you're hit by a car while you're running and your garments aren't there to protect you? What is going to happen? And so I was just always like, I got to have them protected. And I think my elder. My elder sister actually ran a marathon wearing her garments. And so I was always like, if she can run a marathon in these things, like, I can do my little 5K.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] You got to out righteous people.

Kayla White [01:07:44] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Or at least match their righteousness.

Kayla White [01:07:46] Yeah. Especially where you feel like God hates you and isn't talking to you because you're.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Because you're broken.

Kayla White [01:07:52] Yeah. 100. Well, and you know, I didn't go to the bishop for my little heavy makeout scenes.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Levi Lovin.

Kayla White [01:07:58] Yeah, little Levi Lovin. So I was definitely tainted.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] And cover up your clothes because you showed your shoulders that one time with the flag ceremony.

Kayla White [01:08:05] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] Well, I think now's the time to show the video about Judgy.

Kayla White [01:08:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Because you mentioned it. Is that all right?

Kayla White [01:08:10] Yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] So set this up and talk about the reaction first. Right, sure.

Kayla White [01:08:14] So I did a video. It was so funny. I was, I try and put a video out every other day and so I needed a video and I know time is like, what's something fast I can do? And so I looked through my ideas list because I keep a whole document of them. And I'd written this idea down to talk about like stupid things I judged people for. And I, you know, listed a couple different things.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] So give us some examples.

Kayla White [01:08:33] I mean, in the video I talk about, you know, not wearing your garments or not going to ceiling when, you know, they've been through the temple, like standing outside of a marriage ceiling. And I mean, just different things like that. Like little, you know, not paying tithing or not having children right away. These were all just stupid things. I judge people for that. Now I'm like, that's so dumb. And so I just did all in my bathroom because TikTok has an ability to put like a green screen behind you of different scenes. And so I just stood in my bathroom, didn't write a script, just like put it out there and I start the video here. I say stupid things I judged people for when I was Mormon. And I put this video out and again, like I worked no time on it. And so I'm like, it's not going to do very well, but you know, gotta keep the algorithm like it's fine. And it blew up. I think it's at 2.5 million views right now.

John Dehlin [01:09:19] That's a lot.

Kayla White [01:09:20] Yeah, so it blew up and I was like, what is happening? And that's actually where I started getting a bunch of followers. And the reactions are very interesting.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] How many comments do you think?

Kayla White [01:09:29] Oh, I don't even know.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] Hundreds?

Kayla White [01:09:32] No, probably more. Like in the ten thousands, maybe ten thousand. Maybe more of comments? Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] Oh my gosh.

Kayla White [01:09:39] I didn't think it was polarizing. I didn't think it was going to be a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Partly because you're self disclosing your judginess. Your judginess? Yes.

Kayla White [01:09:48] Like I didn't say stupid things. Mormons judge people for it. Like, it was me, my judging. And, you know, the ex Mormons get on and they're like, oh, my gosh, I was this person. Or I can't believe it. But I. You know, I feel the same way. Or this is so true. Or I see this all the time. And then the Mormons would get on and be so defensive, and that was so shocking to me. That's the video where the comments are the meanest. The meanest by far. Well, in the stupid judging video.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Let's show the video. This is ex Mormon Mindy. It's Kayla White as ex Mormon Mindy talking about the way she judged other people when she was a Mormon.

Kayla White [01:10:22] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] All right, let's take a look.

Kayla White [01:10:26] Stupid things I used to judge people for when I was Mormon part. Oh, hey, how's it going? She was wearing a tank top. She was not wearing her garments. I mean, I guess it's a personal choice, but I cannot imagine not wearing my garments. I mean, what if she was hit by a car? What is gonna protect her? Did you notice her brother wasn't in the ceiling? I mean, he just got home from his mission. What would make him unworthy to enter God's house? I mean, I hope it's just a tithing issue and not something more serious like a pornography addiction. I mean, we need to pray for him. Oh, hey, Julie. What are you reading there? Oh, hey, Megan. I was just reading 50 Shades of Grey, actually. But you're the Relief Society president.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] Okay. Are you gonna do another one of those?

Kayla White [01:11:21] Yeah, I'm planning on it. We'll see.

John Dehlin [01:11:25] So people freaked out about that?

Kayla White [01:11:26] Freaked out. And again, I mean, the Mormons got on. Like, it's not like that. Our church isn't like that. We're not like that. I had people be like, that was a you problem. We're glad you're out. We don't need your type in the church. And I was like, whoa, there.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] Yeah. Like, none of us were judgmental.

Kayla White [01:11:41] Right, Right. And I was like, on some level, everybody has something that they judge people on.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] It turns out you were the only judgmental Mormon.

Kayla White [01:11:49] Shocking.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] And now they got rid of you. So they're good.

Kayla White [01:11:51] I know they're good now. Their religion is perfect again.

John Dehlin [01:11:55] That's fun. One of the things I also want to mention about what's so hard about this is it's hard to make things short.

Kayla White [01:12:01] No.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] Like, anyone who listens to Mormon stories know I can do 15 hours in a heartbeat. Like, not even a problem. But there have been times where I'M like, I'm gonna make a 10 minute video and it's 28 minutes. And I'm like, how do I freaking cut this? So, like, to have to cut it down to two minutes. I don't know if you feel this way, but like, no, it's hard for me. Short is harder sometimes.

Kayla White [01:12:21] So hard. Yeah, yeah. And it's really. You have to decide what you're gonna say and be very pers. Precise about it. And there's sometimes like with the cup song, I am like booking it through that. I remember every take. I'd be like, I wasn't breathing.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] You gotta end right on time. Yes.

Kayla White [01:12:34] It'll cut you off and it can be really challenging, but it's fun to see a challenge.

John Dehlin [01:12:38] You're having fun?

Kayla White [01:12:39] Oh, yeah. So much fun.

John Dehlin [01:12:41] Okay, so how does your story follow?

Kayla White [01:12:43] So we're married and, you know, we would go through stages where we weren't super active. I always thought we just were lazy. We were newlyweds. We didn't want to go to church and bountiful at this point. And so it's. It's really weird to go to a family ward when you're newlyweds, especially as young as we were, like, we were like, we don't fit in here. We're young. So we definitely weren't active for a couple years.

John Dehlin [01:13:06] That's bad.

Kayla White [01:13:07] I know. Terrible, right? I mean, we went. I never stopped wearing my garments. I mean, we followed all the rules. We just weren't active in.

John Dehlin [01:13:12] You did sweat garments?

Kayla White [01:13:13] Oh, yeah. We. We stayed in them hardcore. I was.

John Dehlin [01:13:16] Follow the rules.

Kayla White [01:13:17] Followed all the rules. Didn't go to church. Okay, okay. And so we ended up having surprise pregnancy. My son, I was 20. We found out we were pregnant and then 21 when we had him. And once I had him, I started really kind of getting freaked out about religion because all of a sudden I was responsible for his eternal salvation. Like, that is a big weight to take on. Like, if he doesn't make it to top heaven with me, that's my fault. I messed up as a parent. Like, whoo. It was so much pressure. And so definitely being a parent changed how I felt about the church in the sense I almost buckled down into it where I was like, okay, no, gotta do this. Like, I gotta get him to top Heaven. It was a huge weight on my shoulders so much as a young parent. I mean, I was 21.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] So what'd you say to your husband? Would you say Greg?

Kayla White [01:14:05] You know, he worked most Sundays and I did too at that Point we. But we definitely. It became more like we're gonna go. Like we went a lot more than ever before in our marriage once we start having our kids, because that was important to me.

Struggling at Home and Questioning the Church

John Dehlin [01:14:18] So what comes next in your. In your journey?

Kayla White [01:14:21] So we end up moving to Vernal at this point. We have two kids. We have my son and my daughter. And I had grown up in the church where I was taught my big contribution to society would be to be at home with my kids. And at that point, I was the full time worker and my husband was working part time. And, you know, I was getting more and more upset. You know, I just wanted to be home. I felt like a terrible parent. All my sisters were stay at home moms and, you know, got to raise their kids. And I was missing, missing everything. And it was really just emotionally traumatic. And I feel bad because I feel like I put that stress onto my husband. Like, you're not providing for us. And not that I was ever mean to him about it, but I just added to that stress for him in the sense of always crying. Like, I just want to be home. Like it's my divine calling. Like it's all I want to be. If you asked me, I was young, what are you gonna be when you grow up? I was gonna be a mom. Like that's all I'd ever wanted. And so he was able to go to the oil fields in Vernal and he'd be making enough where I could stay home. So there were some other factors, but that was definitely a big one, is we want me to be able to be home to raise our children. And so we moved to Vernal, three hours away from everyone we knew.

John Dehlin [01:15:24] And is that hard work working in the oil fields?

Kayla White [01:15:26] It is. It was very hard.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] What type of stuff do you do when you go to Vernal and work in the oil?

Kayla White [01:15:29] So what he did, he didn't have a cdl, which is a very different thing. So he like his. He couldn't drive semis.

John Dehlin [01:15:34] Okay.

Kayla White [01:15:35] So he didn't have a cdl.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] Commercial driving. Yes.

Kayla White [01:15:37] And so he drove a pickup truck around and connected different valves and pushed water. Different areas. I don't even know, but it was very taxing.

John Dehlin [01:15:46] Fracking stuff.

Kayla White [01:15:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Okay.

Kayla White [01:15:48] And then, you know, he worked out. It was about probably 45 minutes to an hour from Vernal and it would get so cold. I mean, in the winters. He was working at one point was negative 15. Like, it was very, very taxing. And he was working at that point. He was working. I Think five on and one off. So he'd work five days, have a day off, and he was working graveyard. So even on his day off, he was sleeping part of the day and then going back to work. So I was thrust from being the, you know, full time working parent to being the parent home by themselves in a town where I didn't know anyone. And I remember there was some guilt because I'd finally come to the point where I'd gotten the right thing. Like I was home, this is where I'm supposed to be. And not that I didn't feel fulfilled, but I remember being like, there's no, there's no atta boys when you're the stay at home parent. There's no, like, you did a really good job not screaming at the kids today. Whereas when you're in a working situation, you do get those moments, you know, where your supervisor's like, hey, you did a good job. Or, you know, someone you help, a customer is like, you know, thanks a lot. And it was really traumatizing. And for the first year, I think I was there and alone and at home with my kids. I was so disappointed myself. And I didn't even talk to Greg about it because I was like, we sacrificed, you know, moved to this tiny, you know, armpit of Utah town is vernal rough. I mean, we have a Walmart, but it's very small. And it's hard because the closest, you know, if I want to target, it's two and a half hours away. Yeah, like, it's not even like an hour drive somewhere. No Costco, Trader Joe's, nothing. So that part makes it rough. But yeah, I just had so much guilt that I'd finally got in this and we sacrificed so much and I was like, this sucks. This is hard. Like being home all the time is really hard. But I got into a groove. And at this point, when we moved to Vernal, that's when we were like 100% active. I got called into the primary presidency the first time. And I think part of being super active was not having friends and needing to find people and find community. And so we became super active. I got called in the primary presidency. It was a really good experience. I really loved it. We got pregnant with our third child shortly after we moved. And overall it was, it was really good in the beginning. I mean, yeah, the small town thing sucked and but once I got into my groove with parenting and it was okay, it was good.

John Dehlin [01:17:59] You know, I've thought a lot about the Mormon experience and Mormonism, the Mormon Church, the LDS Church, really is wrapped around raising kids, like to the point where the bishop is assigned to the youth. Because, like, that's it. If you don't, if you don't primary young men's, young women's, that is it. People. People just like you. My sister was the same way. She was inactive, got married, married, did not remember. It was having the kid that made her come back. And as soon as this is probably stereotypical, but as soon as the woman has the kid, things get serious with the religion. And then the whole church experience is pretty much wrapped around indoctrinating the young children and then indoctrinating the youth to the point where they can hand them off and get them on a mission and then married in the temple. And that's really what the. That's the core Mormon experience.

Kayla White [01:18:52] 100.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] And it's all about getting your children, really indoctrinating. And I know the churches just wants to be about love and kindness and theology and its doctrine, but if you really look at its backbone, it's about raising, indoctrinating children and then raising them to adulthood so that they jump on the train just like you did, and pay the tithing and marry the temple, go on the missions and then give their kids to the church. And it's just. And that's how the church grows with a big birth rate. And then they always get your kids, and then it always grows. I don't know. I just thought of that.

Kayla White [01:19:23] No, it's 100% true.

John Dehlin [01:19:24] And it was working for you?

Kayla White [01:19:25] Oh, yeah. Yeah. We were pretty happy that first year. And then we moved. And it's so funny, we only moved across the street, but we were in a completely different ward. And so I lost my primary calling. I'd lost this great support system I built in that ward and we moved to this other ward. And I immediately got called into primary again into the presidency. And I was like, okay, this has happened twice. Like, okay. And that primary presidency was really hard. And I never felt like connected to that ward. And it was really rough. And so we spent a year in that ward and we bought our house. House. And so we moved again. And it was a very similar experience where I was called straight into the primary presidency again. I was in four primary presidencies in those three years. Like, I was just always in the primary presidency. And besides that first war in my experiences in the primary presidencies were terrible. I don't know. Again, I don't think I fit the mole. And so I usually had differing opinions. And I was New Vernal's very small town. And most people live there their entire lives. It's very, very common for people stick around. And so people didn't know me, and so they didn't trust me, I think. And so these presidencies, I never had as much of a voice or the last presidency I was in would have presidency meetings without me. And I think I was the first counselor, but the president's best friend was the second counselor. And so I would get really frustrated because I'm like, I'm in this calling and I'm trying, but you're always, you know, diverting to your best friend who's the second counselor. And having presidency meetings without me, it was just terrible. I felt really unwanted and unused. And I, at this point, was having my fourth child. And it was so overwhelming.

John Dehlin [01:20:55] That's a lot of kids.

Kayla White [01:20:56] It's a lot of kids.

John Dehlin [01:20:57] Four kids in how many years?

Kayla White [01:20:59] There's six and a half years between them. So pretty fast between the oldest, oldest and the youngest.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] So four kids and six and a half years. That's intense.

Kayla White [01:21:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] Holy crap.

Kayla White [01:21:08] Yes. Yes. Having children. My mom actually specifically would tell me, you're not gonna get financial blessings until you have kids. Like it was. I think. I think the church used to push that, and not as much anymore, but definitely my mom had that. I mean, they had.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] What's really going on is it puts the fear of God into the husband who's the bread maker. You gotta freaking start making some money. Cause you gotta feed these mouths and your wife's gonna freak out on you if you don't start making some money. So you could say that's when the miracles come, but really, it's when you just have to.

Kayla White [01:21:36] You just have to work harder because you have more kids. And we were always, always poor. I mean, ridiculously poor. So much. But we always paid our tithing because I counted on those blessings. And even though we weren't, like, receiving tons, I felt a financial blessings. We always paid our tithing, no matter what. I mean, we paid our tithing where we were going into debt every month, you know, because we couldn't afford things. And it was just really important because I had heard my entire life from my sisters, from my mom, that that's most important. And so we had our fourth kid, and it was really hard. And Greg was working Sundays, so I was going to church for three hours with my four kids. And I never got a break because then I was in primary and my kids are there. So it's just. It became really overwhelming. And I told Greg, I'm like, I want to be released. I really. I'm unhappy. I'm not loving it. I don't feel like they need me, even. And so I pulled the president aside, and I felt so terrible. I had never said no to calling. I'd never been asked to be released from a calling. So I felt like, the shame of, like, going to her and asking to be released. I, like, my hands were shaking, and I just felt terrible. And I was like, you know, I really think I need to be released. And I remember she was like, yeah, I thought so. I already put your name in to be released. And I was like, you weren't gonna tell me that you were releasing me? And so she was. I was like, oh, okay. And so it took a minute to get me released. And Greg's parents were leaving on a mission, and so we had gone down to their mission, and I hadn't been released. And the primary presidency actually texted, or the primary president texted me and was like, hey, I need your binder, Emanuel. I was like, oh, was I released? And she's like, yep. Like, not a thank you. Not like, hey, like this happened. It was just like. Like, here we are. And so I was like, okay. And I, during that really turmulous time of being in that primary presidency in that ward is, I think, where I first started being just unhappy and recognizing I was unhappy in the church. Because I feel like looking back now, I can see how the church negatively affected me through my entire time in it. But I think that point was when it really started to affect me. And I guess I can talk about a little bit before that. Okay. No. My entire marriage, almost. I would have these panic attacks because I wasn't receiving inspiration. I'm like, I am begging God to tell me where to go. Like, I'm young.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] What kind of questions?

Kayla White [01:23:52] I mean, questions about what job we should go after, what school we should do. I mean, big life questions, you know, should we have another baby? Like, these huge moments. And I would beg and I would plead and I would get squat. And I remember again, it always reverted back to I. It's. It's the Levi loving. It's some sin I've done. It's. You know, it's because I'm not. Not praying enough or reading my scriptures enough or doing enough. And so the longer I was super active in the church and not feeling the spirit, the more anxiety it caused in me. And I would just stay up at night crying to my Husband being like, what have I done? Like, I'm, I'm trying so hard to be a good person, a good mom and a good, you know, person. The presidency and fulfilling my callings. And you know, God doesn't. God can't give me the time of day at this point. Point, like he either he doesn't care or again, I'm a sinful person that he feels like he can't talk to at this point.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] Either one's awful.

Kayla White [01:24:48] Yeah. Terrible options. And yeah, I mean, it plagues me. I started having anxiety attacks going to church. It was terrible. It was like so hard. And again it reverted back to those feelings of what's wrong with me? I don't fit the mold. Like, I'm just an off Mormon, like, like why, why can't what works for everybody else work for me? And I felt so lonely. And again, you're not supposed to like talk about it. And so I never, like, besides my husband, I never talked to anybody else about how I was feeling in the church. And so we came off very classic Mormon family, I think, overall. But it was, yeah, I struggled for a long time with just that feeling of like, I'm not good enough. That's why God's not talking to me. It sucked.

John Dehlin [01:25:32] I'm so sorry.

Kayla White [01:25:33] Yeah, it was really hard. But that kind of again led up to this, my husband getting hurt. That's where everything changed actually.

Financial Hardship and Church Assistance

John Dehlin [01:25:40] What year was that?

Kayla White [01:25:41] So that was in November of 2018 on the oil.

John Dehlin [01:25:44] Oil fields?

Kayla White [01:25:45] No, no, no. I wish actually he had left the oil fields barely. He had been on his new job less than 90 days and we were at home just hanging out and he's like, hey, you should walk on my back because that's what you do. So I was walking on his back and my cute 5 year old daughter got got mad because it was her turn and she pushed me and I ended up falling and my entire body weight landed on his shoulder. And so at first we thought his shoulders maybe just out of socket, like out of place. And he went. And it was at first like, he'll be better in a couple days. Give it, you know, a week maybe. And it was really stressful because he had just started this job, he didn't have any sick leave, any time off again, he wasn't even there 90 days yet. So he couldn't do short term disability. I mean, nothing qualified us. And so it just kept getting extended. He wasn't getting better. He wasn't getting better. And boy, it was terrible. I mean, we had my baby Was not even a year. I'm pretty sure she was super little, still my fourth or she had barely a year. And so we had these four little kids. I was a stay at home parent, I had no income. And we now faced who knows how long of a future with zero income. And so we had some savings and so we lived off of that for about a month and a half. But it got to a point, you know, I'm like, we need to do something. Like we are not gonna make it. And I never, I mean we'd always been super poor, ridiculously poor, but we had never been to a point where I was like, how are we feeding ourselves? Like how are we staying in our home? I was googling like foreclosure because we had just bought our house a year ago. Anyways, it was just this really scary, awful time. And so it got to the point point where I'm like, we have to go talk to the church. Right? Like that's what they're there for. Like we've been paying our tithing, they're there for us. Like we got this. And so it was super humbling. I don't think people realize, like I think very few people want to go to the church to ask for financial help in. I feel like sometimes it's stereotyped, like people are just being lazy or whatever. And so we went in and we talked to the first counselor in the bishopric because the bishop canceled on us last minute and he said, no, no, the bishop doesn't handle financial help anymore. It goes through the elders quorum president. And we're like, that's kind of weird, but okay. And so we started meeting with him

John Dehlin [01:27:59] and he did you want to tell that to the elders?

Kayla White [01:28:01] Right. I felt like it was just another person who was coming into my personal hell at this point. Like I hate asking for help and it was humiliating and you know, stressful. We didn't know how long my husband's gonna be out of work. We didn't, we didn't qualify for any help from the state because of the situation. Because in order for short term disability with the state, you have to prove that you're going to be out for a year. And where we didn't know what was wrong with him, we couldn't prove that. And anyways, it was huge, complicated mess and Vernal's economy is terrible. So I'm job hunting like crazy. At one point I was working three part time jobs just like trying to get anything. So we go to the church and we go to the Elders Quorum president. And he, he. He was a nightmare individual to work with. And, you know, we kind of laid out the situation and it was very much a blame game with him. It was. And we had lived off of our own savings for a month and a half, and considering how poor we'd always been, I thought was amazing. And, you know, it's kind of like, well, have you tried the government? Have you tried your family? I'm like, we've tried all these outlets. Like, that's why we're here. And he's like, okay, bring me a list of all your bills that you need paid and we'll go over it.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Oh, it's humiliating.

Kayla White [01:29:07] It's terrible.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] It's like a child.

Kayla White [01:29:10] It's terrible. And we had no debt outside of our car, which was a miracle.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] And so in your, in your mortgage.

Kayla White [01:29:18] Yeah, in my mortgage. And so we. Greg couldn't go with me that night, so I had to go alone. Oh, with the man, with my four children.

John Dehlin [01:29:25] Oh, my gosh.

Kayla White [01:29:26] And have this conversation, humiliating conversation, like, well, here's our bills. And so he starts looking over them.

John Dehlin [01:29:31] Oh, this is incredibly gross.

Kayla White [01:29:36] It was so humbling and humiliating and terrible, especially with his attitude. Like, if he had been more accepting from the get go, or like, we're here. Like, I know this is hard, like, you can do this. But it was not like that. It was very judging. As he's looking for my bills, he says, well, I can tell you right now we're not paying your car payment. And I was like, that's our biggest bill outside our mortgage. Like, wait, what? And he's like, like, I don't believe Jesus would pay your car payment.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] What does that mean?

Kayla White [01:30:02] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:30:03] Because he didn't drive a car.

Kayla White [01:30:04] Like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:30:04] His cars are evil.

Kayla White [01:30:06] I had no idea. And I mean, comparatively, our car payment at the time was 200, which I didn't feel like for a car payment was terrible. And so. And I remember my head thinking, Jesus doesn't want me have a safe transportation, take my kids to school. Like, I drive them to and from school every day. Like, what are we supposed to do if we don't have a car? Like, like. And so I just kind of was like, okay. Because I was still very much in that submissive Mormon woman mode. And like, again, some of those situations I look back on, I was like, I should have left. Like, I should have been like, what? Like, but we were so desperate. Like, what do you do when you have nothing, nothing to pull from and so that was, like, right off the bat. And he's like, well, I don't think we'll be able to pay all of this. I think we had five or six bills we need help covering. He's like, I'll get with the bishop, and I'll get back to you. I was like, okay, well, we're tying on a time crunch here, but okay. And so we went home, and we were supposed to be on Tuesday, and he. Or Wednesday, and he canceled. I was like, okay, whatever. And he showed up just randomly to my door the Tuesday before our meeting that he had canceled. And he came in, and it was funny because he brought a counselor, I think, from the Elders Quorum presidency, which, again, was like, there's another person who's, like, privy to our situation. And they sat on my couch, and we did the A normal prayer. And Greg was in a play, and so he's actually upstairs getting ready. And he was like, well, you know, these are the bills we're gonna help you with. I was like, our cell phone, our mortgage, which was fantastic. And something else. And he was like, but you have to. We need you to do something for us. And I was like, okay. And so his first request was that we went to financial. The church's financial class. And I was like, I feel like I'm being like, you think I handle my finances poorly, when really no one is 100% prepared for a situation like we're in. But I was like, okay, that could be helpful. Like, learn some more about finances. Like, I was irritated, but I was like, I guess I get that. And then he said, we need to take valid temple recommends because the temple was really hard for me. I think my recommend expired in, like, 2015, and this was 2018. I never renewed it. And Greg's was expired. And it wasn't that we weren't worthy. We were worthy to hold them. I just had no desire to have one because I did not like the temple.

John Dehlin [01:32:13] Yeah. Margi hated it. She never wanted to go back.

Kayla White [01:32:15] No.

John Dehlin [01:32:15] And I was a believer. She just.

Kayla White [01:32:16] Yeah, I believed.

John Dehlin [01:32:17] I was still like, it.

Kayla White [01:32:18] No, it's terrible and boring. I was like, oh, my gosh, it's so boring. And the only time we could go would be for, like, date night. And who wants to not sit next to each other, like, on date night. Yeah. So we never went. I never had a wedding, so I just never got it. And so I was like, okay. I'm like, I think we're behind on tithing because of this situation. He's like, well, you're gonna get caught up. And I was like, we have no income. Are you guys paying yourself back? I don't know. But then he hit the final thing, and it was actually right as Greg entered the room, which was great, but he's like, Greg needs to start wearing a white shirt and tie when he comes to church.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] What the.

Kayla White [01:32:56] Yeah, because he would always wear a tie and a button up. But he would do like a black shirt or a colored shirt, like with a tie. Like, he didn't come looking scruffy. Like he wore a button up shirt and tie, but it wasn't white. And so Greg walked in, at this point, was like, wait, what? And the Elders Quorum president, I specifically will never forget it, he takes his finger and points it at my husband. He says, you don't look like a priesthood holder. I was like, what is. What is happening? I'm so confused. And like, you're in my home and you're like, in front of my children. Like, my kids are here and you're saying this terrible thing. And I knew Greg's testimony wasn't super strong at that point. I was like, why are you doing this? Like, is it. Isn't it more important to have him there than judge what he's wearing on such like a minuscule thing? Something that's not even like doctrine, you know, there's no doctrine that you have to wear a white shirt. And so Greg was mad and he said some curse words and just left. And they left shortly after him. And I just cried. Like I had a full on panic attack. Like it was terrible. And so. Yeah, and so they helped us with those things and they said they were going to contact us about the financial aid class. And they never did, so we never did it. And Greg and I were like, we're not going back to that ward. Like, I believed at that point still, I mean, I had just normal little doubts, but nothing crazy. And I was like, I can't go back there. Like, we were so judged. We were so, I guess you could say offended. I was like, I can't go back where I don't feel comfortable. And so we went to the Stake President and we explained this whole situation. And he asked, he's like, who is the Elders Quorum present there? And we gave his name. He's like, oh, yeah. Like, he knew that he was this terrible person. I was like, why is he. Why is he in the position he's in?

John Dehlin [01:34:47] Because the Lord works with imperfect men

Kayla White [01:34:49] and women, I guess. And I was like, if you know, this is an issue. It was terrible. Sorry. And so we asked, you know, we want to switch boards.

John Dehlin [01:34:57] No.

Kayla White [01:34:57] We're like, we.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] Oh, no.

Kayla White [01:34:58] Yeah. We're like, we don't want to be here anymore where we feel judged and terrible. Which I didn't think was a big issue until he was like, any. And I don't know if this is policy. That's what he said. But he's like, any switching of words like that has to go through the first presidency. And I was like, wait, what? I'm like, the first. The. The prophet of the entire church. This isn't a matter important enough to bug him with. And I remember being like, okay. He's like, honestly, you have no chance. I was like, wait, what? He's like, unless it's a situation of abuse, they're not going to do it. And I remember we even said to him, we're like, it's more important that it's like we're in our word boundaries than us being comfortable and wanting to go to church. And he was like, you can write a letter. Good luck with that. And we're like, bye. I don't know. What do you want me to say to that? So that was a fail. So we decided as a couple. I'm like, I'm done. I'm like, I'm not going back to church until that bishop and the elders were in prison. Not involved, not doing it. We're done. And so we took a sabbatical, which is a dangerous thing to do. There's a reason they want you to go every week, I tell you what.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] But, yeah, so what you're saying is you were offended.

Kayla White [01:36:13] Definitely. I always tease Greg. I'm like, we left because we were offended. And I won't lie. It definitely was the, you know, the push down the hill. You know what I mean? Like, that's not why we left. That wasn't the reasoning, but it got us on that path.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] You know, I. I'll mention this again. I did this tithing video recently for the Understanding Mormonism YouTube channel we've started, and it's gotten like 20,000 views, which on YouTube, for me, is a lot, you know, especially. It's only been a few weeks, right. So really happy with it. But we share a clip of all these general authorities saying, pay your tithing before you feed your kids. So it's telling these heartbreaking stories of, like, these Latin American families where the parents don't have enough money for shoes or for food. And then you've got these white upper Class Utah Mormon general authorities saying in general conference, pay your tithing before you pay your food.

Kayla White [01:37:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:37:06] And then someone. And so we share that and it's verbatim, but then there's one where we cut off. What he said afterwards was, you know, once you pay your food, then the church will help you.

Kayla White [01:37:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:19] And. And at first I was like, oh, that's. That's taking it out of context. But then I thought about it and I'm like, not everybody gets that money. Like it's, it's not as simple as you just go to the church and they give you money. A lot of people have experiences, either no's or get experiences like yours. Right. So it's just I've met a lot of people where, when they really had that need, the church wasn't. Wasn't there for them.

Kayla White [01:37:42] Yeah. Yeah. And again, they only offered to pay. You know, I think it was three of the five. And I was like, I don't know how. And again, one of those was our car payment, which was one of our biggest bills. And I was like, I don't know how they think we're miraculously. Maybe that's what they were banking. It was a miracle. But I'm like, how are we going to get this money? And it was, it was really bad.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] So do they keep paying after you stopped attending or how did that work?

Kayla White [01:38:02] So, no. So we only asked them that one time and I'm like, we will foreclose on our house and I will. Before I go back to the church for money. I was like, not doing it, not worth it.

John Dehlin [01:38:11] Okay, so. So they gave you one month's worth of help then or.

Kayla White [01:38:14] Yeah, I think it was just one month. And so we found a way. I mean, we had actually through YouTube, I talked about my story on our family vlogging channel and, and not that went viral anything, but it made everyone, our life aware of our situation. And I guess you could say it was miracles. But we just had people come out of the woodwork to help us. I mean, people on YouTube that followed me reached out that didn't even know me personally. And we had a company who, they had like a charity account, I guess, but they paid our tithing for three months or our mortgage for three months. And. Yes. And so once we had that covered and then my mom paid our car payment for us for a couple months, like, like, it was just so many miraculous things. After we left the church, which was so interesting, and decided they weren't helpful, we had all these amazing things happen and it was, it was incredible. And I'm so humbled by that experience. Like I will never forget just the amount of people who helped us. It was incredible. But anyways, so I did end up getting a full time job. So we were with.

John Dehlin [01:39:17] Got out of the. Yes, but that's hard when you have four kids at home. Right.

Kayla White [01:39:21] And my husband was injured and they did end up doing surgery and so he was having to parent our children with one arm. And we had our youngest in diapers. And so poor soul, he really struggled. But you know, you got to do what you got to do at that point, like we didn't have any other choice. But yeah, I think in total it was like six months without income or with my little three part time job income that, I mean, didn't cover hardly anything.

John Dehlin [01:39:46] And I don't mean to place blame, but in this situation, you were doing what the church had asked you to do. You got married way earlier than you should have, and you start having kids way earlier than you should have and you have way more kids than you should have at that time. And so the church locks you in to the situation when you, you know, these are worldly couples. But when you talk to worldly couples, and when I say worldly, I mean not Mormon, you know, these are just like Protestants or Catholics or whatever. The both get educated, both get degrees, both pursue careers. They wait to have the kids, they have less kids, they space them out more. And they're not put in this desperate situation where they would feel like they were dependent on the church and had to cling to the church to survive. They just set themselves up for something. So I mean, it's if, if the church formula, if the church train works for you, that's great, but if it doesn't, you kind of get run over by the train, right?

Kayla White [01:40:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:40:47] But by doing what the church wants.

Kayla White [01:40:48] Exactly. And I've actually talked to my husband about that. I'm like, I don't regret my children, obviously, but how much easier would our life have been if we could have just moved in together or, you know, or even, you know, waited or was able to have sex? Because I mean, honestly we, by the time we got married, we've been together a year and 10 months. And besides the Levi loving, we hadn't done anything. And so you're really forced to, like, what other options are there than to just get married and deal with the consequences?

John Dehlin [01:41:14] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:41:14] And it's, it's hard being like we were financially struggled our entire marriage. I can't even tell you how poor we've been. And it could have been avoided if we had been not so young.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Not to mention what happens if you're fundamentally incompatible. Like, I know a couple were like, the woman didn't know she was lesbian because she'd never experienced. No experience anything sexual. So they start having sex after their marriage, and she finds out she's not attracted. She thinks there's something wrong with her, or she's asexual or just as a libido, when in reality she's just attracted to girls. And it happens with guys and like, all that stuff if. Because you don't have sex before. And it's not like I'm pro premarital sex, but in a way, I'm kind of pro premarital sex.

Kayla White [01:41:58] I am pro premarital sex. You are so much.

John Dehlin [01:42:01] But it's all. But it's only because it can be. It. It's like Russian roulette. Some of these couples have disastrous. Either there's really big libido differences.

Kayla White [01:42:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:12] Or there's total dysfunction.

Kayla White [01:42:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:15] And in those situations, you shouldn't have gotten married to begin with. But there's no way to know until after 100%.

Kayla White [01:42:20] Yeah, 100. True. And, I mean, we could have a whole conversation about how the church messed up my entire sex life with my poor husband.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] Okay, so what can you. What do you want to share about that? It's not me digging for the benefit of, like, people.

Kayla White [01:42:34] I think it's something not talked about a whole lot. But again, with me, it was. Sex is bad. Sex is. No, no, you don't go there. And so that switch doesn't flip automatically like I thought it would. But, like, I dealt with so much shame and guilt after having sex with my husband, which is church approved. And it made me never want to do it. Like, anytime he would try and touch me, like, playfully or sexually, I'd be like, what are you. What are you? Like, like, don't. Like, I felt dirty and gross inside.

John Dehlin [01:43:02] Because you're used to being a police woman over the young men's morality, right?

Kayla White [01:43:07] Yes. And I'm not a sexual being because sex was dirty. Sex was wrong. And so when he would touch me, I'd be like, oh. Like, my gut instinct was, that's wrong. Like, that's dirty ill. Like, you don't love me. You just want to have sex with me. Like, it's not a love thing. It's a physical need for you, and that's why you're doing this.

Drifting Away and LGBTQ Turning Point

John Dehlin [01:43:24] And then he feels what?

Kayla White [01:43:25] He feels terrible. Because I think, like a lot of guys, his love language is physical. And when you have a wife who's like, anytime beyond holding hands or kissing is like, whoa, what are you doing? It was terrible. And I. It took me a long time because I had heard a good girl syndrome, and I was like, I don't have that. Like, I have just a low, you know, libido or whatever. And it took me up until, like, this last year.

John Dehlin [01:43:43] What is good girl syndrome? I've never heard of that.

Kayla White [01:43:45] Oh, so good girl syndrome is. Is a documented theme where girls in these situations, they have good girl syndrome. They feel like they have to be good, and it affects their sex life negatively. It makes them feel dirty about sex or not wanting sex or scared of sex. And it really affects a lot of girls from religions like this with a purity culture. And again, I had heard of it because I googled myself. Obviously, I'm like, what is wrong with me? Like, I never want sex again.

John Dehlin [01:44:10] There's something wrong with you.

Kayla White [01:44:11] Yes. Like, what happened where, you know, I'm not pleasing my husband? And that was one of the things that came up. And I read it, I was like, that's not me. I don't have that. I know. It's okay. I know you're supposed to have sex in marriage. And again, it wasn't until this last year, I was like, once we left, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, that is exactly what it was. It was my trained my entire life. I mean, from a young kid. I mean.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] I mean, think about the experience with your mom and just the, you know, you're just trying to do the flag twirling thing.

Kayla White [01:44:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:40] And you get this heap of shame about the clothes you're wearing. Right. Which means your body's bad. And it all comes back, right? Yes, it all comes back.

Kayla White [01:44:46] It all comes back. And it was, you know, it's not. Again, not something talked about. And I think it's kind of shameful, painful for a lot of people, but it should be spoken about more because, again, I think it affects more people than you realize. Because I knew what it was and still was like, nah, no, I just. That's not me, but it totally is me.

John Dehlin [01:45:01] And then this came out in an interview we did, a couple couple back with Donna and her husband. But there's also this petrification about porn.

Kayla White [01:45:10] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:11] And. And so during the actual sexual act, I've just learned this, that there are Mormon wives that don't want. Want it to be too sexual, too open to what graphic or even just too free spirited or enjoyable.

Kayla White [01:45:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] Because then it's going to be too much like a porn movie and then you're encouraging your husband to do things that are like the porn movies. And maybe in some way you're going to be encouraging porn or the types of thoughts that are compatible with porn.

Kayla White [01:45:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:42] Is some of that true or I

Kayla White [01:45:44] don't worry about porn so much.

John Dehlin [01:45:45] You didn't then?

Kayla White [01:45:46] No.

John Dehlin [01:45:47] Okay.

Kayla White [01:45:47] Not. Porn was never an issue for me.

John Dehlin [01:45:50] What do you mean?

Kayla White [01:45:50] I mean, if he had, if he had looked, I mean, okay, that's a lie. I told him if he looked, it was like cheating. But he always said he didn't look and he never actually did, which is a miracle, honestly, for most men. But yeah. So I was never worried about being too porny. But I was definitely. Again, it's just that when you feel like sex is dirty and wrong, it's really hard to enjoy it. And it's really hard. Like, I would have panic attacks, like if we were laying in bed next to each other because I was like, oh my gosh, what if, what if he tries something? Like, am I gonna do it if I don't do it? Because if I turned him down, I would feel guilty. Like, this poor guy, like, why would I turn him down? And like, he's not feeling love from me and like, how rude of me. But then if, if I tried to do it or force myself to do it, I would get panicky and it wouldn't be enjoyable and I'd be freaking out. I'd be in my head and it was, it was terrible. For years, for years, for years and years. And there was times, like, if I was having more stress in my life, life, it would make it worse. Or if, like, I was more relaxed, then it was okay. But yeah, it was always there and it was always something. My poor husband, he dealt with it beautifully, but it was always something he had to deal with. Is like, can I touch her? Like, is it gonna be a problem? Like, is she gonna turn me down? Like, it was, it was hard. It was really hard. And it goes back to that purity culture. Like, how do you just flip the switch between it's wrong and dirty to know it's great and do it? Yeah, it's really, it's not there. There's no switch to flip.

John Dehlin [01:47:10] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:47:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:11] Okay, so now by this point, you're not attending church anymore. What, where does it go from there?

Kayla White [01:47:17] I didn't honestly think about religion, so I guess we stopped going in January. We went one Sunday of What year? In January 2019. We got hurt in November. We had the one Sunday in January 2019 where we went and it was. I think it was my daughter's first time in nursery. And we went and it was terrible. Like, I sat in the hall, like, I hated being there, like that elders corn president was there. Like, it was just, just so terrible. And that's when I was officially like, yeah, we're not, not doing this. I went that one time. And then in April, my husband just had surgery on his shoulder to try and fix it. They finally figured out what was wrong. And in April, my son, my eldest son was supposed to be baptized. And it was honestly before something I'd always looked forward to. And I'd always been really excited that he was. You know, I get. My kids would be baptized and everyone comes and parties and it's this big thing. And my husband couldn't do it because was. His arm was injured. And so we decided to put it off. And I remember when we made that choice, feeling relieved that he wasn't getting baptized. And that was so confusing to me at the time because I still believed, even with the issues with the elders corn present, like, I was the whole Mormon concept, like, that's just a man. That's not the church. Like, I still believe in this. So why do I have this weird guard up? Like, I don't want him to be baptized. And so that's when I really started having questions. At that point, I didn't look at anything like anti Mormon. It was just kind of like, huh. And it was within those months, which I found so fascinating. My husband never had this moment, but I had this really strong moment where I was like, I don't have to be Mormon. And it was like this realization where I was like, it's a choice because I don't know when you've grown up in it, it's all, you know, like, there's no choice. There's no choice. Like, this is the way to get to heaven. This will get kissed heaven. This is how I see my dad again. This is how I get my eternal family. This is it. There's no options here. And so I remember when I had that, I was like, oh my. Oh my gosh. Now then it was scary. I always tell anyone going through a faith crisis, the in between is the worst. Like when you start questioning up until you're officially done, that point you decide you're done, that's the worst time for me because you're on the fence and it's Turmoil all the time. Am I gonna stay? Am I gonna go? You know, is that true about the church? Is that not true? You know, what, what's. What information do I believe? What information sources do I not believe? And it's just, it's sucky. It's complete turmoil forever.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] So by, by early 2019, you're kind of saying, I'm, I think I'm done with this.

Kayla White [01:49:36] I started questioning.

John Dehlin [01:49:37] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:49:37] I started being like, we need to side if. Because again, I felt like my son getting baptized was the tipping point. Like, if he's gonna get baptized, that means he's a member. They have record. I mean, I know when the blessed member of record or something, but he'd be an official member of the church. And it felt like we were making that choice for him because I ate as much as maybe the church would like you to think they aren't capable making that choice. So I'm like, we're making this big choice for him and we need to be sure ourselves that it's going to be the right choice. So, yeah, I started questioning. And that whole summer, it was, it was just turmoil for months and months, I think, probably.

John Dehlin [01:50:19] What was your process of.

Kayla White [01:50:21] Mostly I started talking to my nuanced Mormon sister a lot. And I do have an ex Mormon sister. She left years and years before me. She's my younger sister. And so I was talking to her a little bit about my doubts and, like, issues I had. And this is when the LGBTQ stuff really started to affect me and women in the church. Those were the two things that really got under my skin because I was like, I have this sweet, at that time, five year old daughter, five or six year old daughter who is stubborn and vivacious and she puts her mind to something and she does it. Like she spent 12 hours, I swear, tying her shoe because she wanted to be like her older brother. Like, she's gonna get it. And I was like, how can I take her? I. I saw myself be so submissive. And I was like, I can't let that happen to my daughter. Like, I can't let them be out of her that she can do anything that she wants to because women's place in the church is not equal. Yeah. And then the LGBTQ thing, I was like, greg, if one of our kids is gay, I literally don't care. I mean, we let Greg's best friend move in with us for a while because he was gay and his parents kicked him out. And so seeing him go through that turmoil, this friend of, you know, going back to the church, and then, no, I can't. And then, you know, his parents being terrible and. And living with us and really get inside, look into that whole experience. I was like, even if we're supportive, how can we take them to a place that tells them they're wrong, that tells them they can never be truly happy in a relationship, that they can't be with the people that they want to be with? I feel like God is always going to be higher up in the opinion. You know what? Opinions are important to my kids over me. So I was like, and our actions are going to say, we're, you know, we're giving the church money, we're giving the church time. We're supporting this religion. So they're going to believe that we support that even if we say we don't. You know, we're like, it's okay. We'll still love you. It's. You know what I mean? It's like that pity patch, and I wouldn't do that to my own children.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] So the LGBT thing became a big deal.

Kayla White [01:52:09] A big deal.

John Dehlin [01:52:11] Maybe we should show that video. What do you think?

Kayla White [01:52:12] Sure, let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:52:13] You want to set it up?

Kayla White [01:52:14] Okay. So it was kind of a trend at the time to use this music and say something inspiring, I guess. So I decided to use it to tell the church members that even though you think. Think you're being supportive, you are not, because. Are we okay?

John Dehlin [01:52:35] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:52:36] Okay. You're not being supportive because, again, like, you can say you're supportive, but you're still giving your time, your money to this institution. That doctrine is so toxic to the LGBTQ community that people kill themselves over it. You know, people attempt to commit suicide. People are kicked out of their families over this. So. And yeah, it was just kind of trying to point that out. Like, I know you want to say you're supportive, but as long as you are giving your time and money to an organization that's so unsupportive, you're not. You're not an ally.

John Dehlin [01:53:05] Right? All right, let's roll the video. This is ex Mormon Mindy. This is Kayla White as ex Mormon Mindy sharing a video about LGBT rights and Mormons.

Kayla White [01:53:20] Mormons. You have to stop saying you support LGBTQ rights. You have to see yourself as part of an organization that actively campaigns against the rights of LGBTQ people. You have to realize you donate your time and money to an organization that preaches the best option for a gay individual is to stay celibate and alone for their entire life in Hopes that they'll be gay, cured of their gayness in the next life. It's time for you to write your leaders and demand some real change.

John Dehlin [01:53:53] Okay, so that was a little more serious. They're not all fun and games. That one's a little bit more intense. You're feeling pretty passionate about that 100%.

Kayla White [01:54:02] I was one of those people in the church where I'm like, I support them, but I still couldn't, like, see a gay couple kissing without feeling, like, oh, like, weird and uncomfortable. And so, you know, again, these are all derived from my own flaws and experiences. And again, once I left, I realized how much I was not an ally. Even though I really wanted to be, and I desperately thought I was, I wasn't. And I think it's important for members to realize that, like, until you're supporting an organization that is supportive of them, then you're not an ally. You're not. It just doesn't work that way.

John Dehlin [01:54:39] Yeah, it's been so frustrating because you talk to Mormons and they're like, oh, no, wait, there are Mormons that march in the gay pride parade. The church has a Mormon and gays website. They'll even use the term gay or lesbian or lgbt. Now there's love Loud. Like, the church is good with the gay people. What's wrong? You know, we all love LGBT people. And it's like, yeah. And you're denouncing it, and you believe it's evil, and you believe it's a sin, and they don't have any options. There's no theology for them. And, you know, there's still a super high suicide rate. Like, but. But. But the. The way the church has managed it, the members think they're. They're super allies and, like, way cool with the gay people, you know, with LGBT people.

Kayla White [01:55:23] Yep. And again, I get it. I get wanting to be it, but always feeling that confliction. Like, okay, I do support. But wait, the church tells me it's wrong, and it's just like, you have to live in this weird in between, and it sucks.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:55:35] And, yeah, I didn't want. I don't want my kids growing up with that.

John Dehlin [01:55:38] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:55:38] Because you don't know if they're gay. I mean, my kids are, like, nine. They don't. I don't know anything. So, yeah, those are my two big things. And it was in the winter of that same year, 2019, where.

John Dehlin [01:55:51] This is a year ago.

Kayla White [01:55:52] Yeah. Oh, geez. Yeah. So I read the CES letter, and I'd avoid it.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] How'd you find it like I'd always known. You'd always known.

Kayla White [01:56:00] I mean, as long. Yeah, for a while. I don't remember exactly how I found it in the beginning, but I never read it. It. I never, ever read anything anti Mormon. I mean, not even close. If something was even, like, skirting on the edges, I was like, exit. And I remember I told my husband I like, because I read at work, and I was like, I think I'm gonna read this tonight because I work graveyards. And he was like, okay. And I was like, I'm really scared. I think I knew at that point that it was. It was gonna be done. I think, you know, trying to figure out how I felt and. And. And I realized I probably was gonna leave, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't gonna go to hell first. Like, I had to prove the doctrine wrong. It couldn't just be like, I don't agree with, you know, the feminist part or the LGBTQ part. Like, I have to prove the doctrine wrong. Like, I'd reach that point. And so, yeah, I read that one in letter to my wife. And what did they do? They basically just proved to me what I'd already thought in that that's it's not true. The real nail in the coffin for me was Joseph Smith, which.

Discovering the Truth Claims and Leaving

John Dehlin [01:57:03] Which were the big issues.

Kayla White [01:57:04] Yeah, I mean, polygamy. I didn't know he'd married other women's wives was a big thing, how young his wives were. And the church, they don't talk a lot, especially about his polygamy. You hear a little bit more about Brigham Young and the later prophets, but they don't talk about Joseph Smith as much.

John Dehlin [01:57:18] You weren't taught that.

Kayla White [01:57:19] No, you.

John Dehlin [01:57:20] You weren't taught that Joseph Smith. Smith married 14 year olds. Growing up in the church in Centerville, you weren't taught that Joseph Smith sent men on missions and then propositioned their wives and that several of his wives were married to other men at the time he married them. And that, of course, conflicted the narrative that we were all taught, which is that polygamy happened because there were so many women and not enough men. And so we had to just be kind to the women and let them, you know, allow polygamy so that the women could have righteous husbands.

Kayla White [01:57:52] But that's not what was going on exactly. And I was really bothered. I don't remember her name now, but Joseph, I mean, told people that, you know, an angel came to him with a sword, like they were gonna be destroyed or he would promise people, you Know if you marry me, your entire family salvation is done. Like, God's good with it if you marry me.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] And that manipulation, you'll all be exalted if you marry me, me. And if you don't, you won't all be exalted. And These are like 15, 16 year old girls. Yes.

Kayla White [01:58:18] Young girls who now have their families. I mean, I felt that with my kids, like, I felt like I had their eternal salvation at stake on me. So I can imagine as a 15 year old being like, all I have to do is marry the prophet me. How bad can it be? And then my family's fine. You know what I mean? And that manipulation was so gross to me. It was so gross. But.

John Dehlin [01:58:35] But also they was lying to Emma the whole time.

Kayla White [01:58:37] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] Emma was like the 23rd or 24th wife sealed to him. Like, why, why wasn't Emma the first wife sealed to Joseph? You know, she was married to Joseph before the sealing power was given. Joseph starts having adulterous affairs even before the sealing power is given. Then the sealing power is given. And then he gets sealed to 23 other women and lies about it to Emma before he finally seals Emma to him as like the 23rd or 24th wife. Because he'd been lying the whole time. Time. Like, how in the world is that excusable?

Kayla White [01:59:09] Right? It's disgusting.

John Dehlin [01:59:10] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:59:10] And it was another like, yep, this is how women basically, like just, you know, the cattle. Yeah, One of the numbers. And so it's funny because I was reading the CS letter and I don't remember where it is exactly. Letter, but I reached the part where it talks about Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon by the rock and the hat method, which again, never heard of that in my entire life.

John Dehlin [01:59:29] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:59:29] I was like, that's not true. Because, you know, that's what you do when. When you're trying to believe something. And so I actually went, I think the gospel topics essays, and lo and behold, there's an article on my church's website with a picture of the rock. And I was, I felt like, okay, that's ridiculous that we believe that God, this rock that was even given to him by God, just some random rock.

John Dehlin [01:59:52] He found it in a well.

Kayla White [01:59:53] He found in a well.

John Dehlin [01:59:54] Yeah.

Kayla White [01:59:55] God was like, yeah, we're using that. Screw the plates that, you know, we've lugged around and preserved. Rocking the hat method.

John Dehlin [02:00:01] Yeah. Moroni supposedly gives him the Urim and Thummim with the plates.

Kayla White [02:00:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:06] And the plates. All that effort, smelting, writing, carrying, hiding, delivering and Then neither the Urim and Thummim or the plates get used in the translation, but instead, no plates and some rock he found in a well that, by the way, he used as a treasure digger to deceive people and make them think he was finding buried treasure, when in reality, he admitted that he was just fooling people with the same stone that he then claims he used to translate the Book of Mormon later. It's absurd.

Kayla White [02:00:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:00:38] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:00:39] Yeah. So I found that out. A couple other things from CS letter, and I went home and it was Thanksgiving morning, 2019, and I crawled into bed and I was, like, crushed. Like, even though I was, you know, having these doubts, whatever, I think. I think most ex Mormons wanted it to be true. It means what, you know, it's what you're comfortable with. It's that eternal family thing. And I just crawled into my bed because I worked graveyard. So it's 6am And I get in bed, and my husband, he has this amazing ability to always wake up when I'm crying. I don't know how he does it, but he wakes up and he rolls over. He's like, what is wrong? And I was like, I just sat there. I think it took me like three to five minutes of just trying to say it. And then finally I'm like, I don't think Joseph Smith is a prophet. And like, it was because I felt like if you couldn't believe in the Founder, the rest of it's not true. You know what I mean? Like, that doesn't even make sense. And, yeah, and so I cried. It was Thanksgiving morning. We had family over, and so we kind of didn't talk about it again until they left the next day. And then I told Greg what I had found out, and he was like, yep, we're done. And I remember he was like, I'm taking off my garments. I was like, like, even though I didn't believe it was true, I was still like, wait, what are you doing? Wait, wait, what's happening? Like, no, we promised. And. And it was like this panic moment, and he was so like, no, nope, we're good. And he just, like, he was done. And I was like, oh. I felt like it came full circle. I brought him back to the church and I helped him leave. I'm like, here I am. But, yeah, we were done at that. At that moment.

John Dehlin [02:02:06] And so that was what month and what year that was?

Kayla White [02:02:08] Thanksgiving 2019.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] Okay.

Kayla White [02:02:09] So that's. Yeah, that always remember it. But yeah, it was really soul crushing. And I don't Think that's shown very often. Not even by me, not even in my. My videos. But it is. Was really soul crushing to lose that religion. And it wasn't until a couple months after we left that I really had to grapple with, you know, I might not see my dad again. Like, I lived my entire life with this, this promise that I would see him and. And be able to have a relationship I never had. And it sucked. And, you know, it's something I still grapple with. I do think there's something after this, but, you know, I don't know what that is. I don't have the answers. I don't think anybody does. And so I have to live like I'm not going to get it in a way. And it's been. It's been a rough healing process to try and figure out how to come to terms with. With that. So.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] Yeah, but also, you spend. I mean, this is something that comes to me as I hear your story. You spent 10, 20 years feeling inadequate, feeling like you were broken, feeling like there was something wrong with you. And all that shame, all that body shame, all the clothing shame, your husband that you were going to marry isn't good enough. And then you're getting married in the temple and having all these kids and all the shame, like all of a sudden it's not true. And it's like. It's almost like the cinematic thing where you rewind and it's like, whoa, like, all that shame, all that pain, all the times I didn't get answers, it makes sense now. Now it makes sense why I wasn't giving. Why I wasn't getting those answers. But I gave 15, 20 years of my 30 years of my life to this. And I made all these decisions based on. Based on a lie.

Kayla White [02:04:02] Yes. I think that was surprising to me. It's the main thing I felt once I grieved. The afterlife is betrayal. I felt totally betrayed by this organization. I was like, what. What is this again? Like you said everything you said, like, all these choices in my life that could have been different and maybe even better. And I was denied even thinking for myself because the church literally almost makes every choice for you. And I do remember after. I mean, I was really sad for probably two or three weeks, but I hit this moment where you were talking about that shame and that guilt and that stress and anxiety and not being good enough and not having some secret sin. And I woke up and I was like, oh, my. Oh my gosh. Like, it's gone. And like, I literally didn't realize how unhappy I had been in the church until I left and until I could free myself from those expectations and free myself from those rules and everything else. And it's been. The best part about leaving is finding my voice. And I found confidence in myself like I never knew I had. And I think that's because when you're in the church, especially as a female, you're always turning to a man. You're turning to God, you're turning to your husband, you're turning to your bishop. No. No choice can you make by yourself. You know, you can't rely on yourself to do those big choices. And, man, that confidence was really great, like, finding that inner power. And now I'm a total feminist and I speak up for myself and. And I feel like I've done a complete change of. Compared to who I used to be. And it's really hard for me to accept actually who I used to be because I almost hate her because I'm like, you were weak and you were stupid and. And I always have to give her grace because she worked with what she had. But.

John Dehlin [02:05:43] Yeah, you did. You went through. You endured a lot.

Kayla White [02:05:46] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] And you figured it out eventually. Better 30 than 40 or 50.

Kayla White [02:05:51] That's true.

John Dehlin [02:05:51] Or 60.

Kayla White [02:05:52] 100%. And I'm again, I'm glad none of my kids were baptized. And now I can save them from. From those. Maybe those horrible experiences I had that were terrible.

John Dehlin [02:06:01] Yeah. So it's one thing to. It's one thing to leave the church, which is a massive thing. It is a completely another thing to become an activist to. To decide that you're going to go public, not just talking about the fact that you don't believe anymore. Anymore, but like creating video and songs and materials under an ex Mormon banner, which translates to orthodox Mormons as anti Mormon. And there's a whole, like, as someone who's been doing this for 15 years, like, there's a whole level of intensity because you're conditioned never to. Never to speak ill of the Lord's anointed.

Kayla White [02:06:49] Nope. Doubt your doubts.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] Doubt. Never to criticize. This is sacred. Plus, you've got all your. Your parents, family, extended family, siblings, the entire Utah community, no matter where you live, all surrounding you who are believers. And it's like, oh, you're really. You're gonna. This is a voice inside your head. You're gonna raise your voice now and start attacking the thing that's most sacred to everyone around you. And then you're gonna live amongst these people and face both wondering if people are gonna recognize you, but then also just your parents and your. Everyone being disappointed in you and even people that don't know you, all the haters that are gonna come, like, that's a super intense thing. So talk about. And that's why I. That's why I want to interview you. That's why I wanted to interview Mitch. That's why I like to bring on creative people like, like, Radio Free Mormon Bill Real, Lindsay Hanson park, like, Sandra Tanner. Like, I bring them all on because they're heroes to me. Like, yeah, I'm doing it, but anytime I see someone else doing it, I'm like, you're a freaking hero. You're a legend. You're a living legend. Because I know how hard it is.

Kayla White [02:08:03] Yeah.

Deciding to Speak Out as an Activist

John Dehlin [02:08:03] So talk about how you made that decision to go from, like, just leaving to, like, whoa. I think I'm going to be an activist. And speak up. Okay. I'm gonna do videos on TikTok, making fun of garments and the temple ceremony and the things that are most sacred. And some of these things, you're, like, drinking alcohol, or you're looking like you're drinking alcohol, or you're drinking coffee, drinking tea, putting on temple clothes, talking about garments. Like, that's. That's more hardcore than I've been. Like, honestly, I'm pretty hardcore. Like, I'm viewed as evil by a lot of people.

Kayla White [02:08:38] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] You're more hardcore than me.

Kayla White [02:08:40] Oh, yeah. I have some haters. There's some haters.

John Dehlin [02:08:42] Okay, so tell us how you made that decision, because that takes a lot of courage.

Kayla White [02:08:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:46] Or recklessness.

Kayla White [02:08:47] Right. And that's why I try. Like, people like, you're so brave. I'm like. Or really stupid. I mean, you can't tell. Like I said, I was documenting on our YouTube channel, and I was being super nice. At least I thought I was. And people were still mad about it. Like, me just telling my experience was, like, offensive. And I found that so interesting because Mormons post about religion all the time.

John Dehlin [02:09:07] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:09:07] Which I didn't go on missions. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] 80,000 people a year are, like, being missionaries, and they can tell whoever, whatever, all over the world, but you can't tell your ex's story.

Kayla White [02:09:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:17] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:09:18] And. And again, at that point, I wasn't being anti. I never. I never made a video why I left. I didn't say anything. And so I was so mad. And so when that was kind of

John Dehlin [02:09:26] taken from me because.

Kayla White [02:09:27] Because, like, the Mormons felt like I shouldn't talk. And I felt like, again, I Felt so shushed in the church and I left and found this confidence. I'm like, you're trying. You're doing it to me again. I'm not even a member. Like, I'm not even here and you're still trying to tell me, me what I can say and can't say. And I was mad. And so I stopped my YouTube for like a month at least the ex Mormon content. And I was mad and I was like, well. And then, you know, the tick tock thing idea came to my head. I'm like, I'm gonna start a tick tock. And I knew because of my YouTube that if I was gonna do an ex Mormon tick tock, it had to be clearly an ex Mormon tick tock. I was like, were there ex Mormon

John Dehlin [02:10:01] tick tocks at the time you started?

Kayla White [02:10:03] Yes, there was a couple I followed. My sister had done the some. Katie the human had done some X1 Panda girl. Those were the three I had seen at that point.

John Dehlin [02:10:10] And when you saw those, you were like.

Kayla White [02:10:12] I was like, other people are doing this. Like, I can do this. And they, they had a different format though, than me.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] They.

Kayla White [02:10:17] They mostly, like, sat down and talked to the camera and. And did that. And I knew I wanted to do something more on the creative side of things. Like, I love. I still love their content. I think it's really great. But I was like, I'm gonna do something different. And so I made my account and I called it it Ex Mormon Mindy. And I wanted ex Mormon to be in the name because, again, I don't want Mormons. It's not for Mormons. I'm not out there trying to, like, convince you to leave. I'm for those in faith crisis or those who have already left, who are just trying to heal and find humor in the trauma. And so I made it clearly ex Mormon. And I use my middle name, Mindy, because I thought I could fly under the radar. I mean, when I started my account, I was like, if I get like 100 followers, I mean, I have been on YouTube for four years and I had less than a thousand followers. And so I'm like, like, no one's gonna know. It's gonna be fine.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] You're a little secret. You're creative.

Kayla White [02:11:04] It's my way to have an outlet that no one can know about or no one has to know about where I can just say what I feel, because I even, you know, with family and friends, you can't tell them that you're drinking most of the time. Like, you can't tell them that you're doing these things or experiencing these really awesome things because they see it as wrong and sinful and you don't wanna be judged. And so I was like, I'm gonna find people. People like me. And so that's why I went into it. The way I did is originally just to find a few people. And that actually, that judging video, like I said, blew up. And at that point, I mean, I think I had.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] So you started doing videos in what month?

Kayla White [02:11:36] June.

John Dehlin [02:11:37] June of this year.

Kayla White [02:11:38] This year.

John Dehlin [02:11:39] So that's just like a few months ago.

Kayla White [02:11:40] Yeah. Yeah, it was really fast.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] So what was like that first one?

Kayla White [02:11:43] So the first one I did, it was ex Mormon mode, which is funny. I just was like in my Mormon attire and I'm like, oh, what's this Ex Mormon mode? And I pretended the camera was a button and I pushed it it. And then my finger comes back. I'm like in a tank top and have my second piercing and I'm holding alcohol. And I'm like, well, this is great. So that was like my intro. My. Like, this is what I'm about. And then I just kept. Kept going, you know, again, with things that were traumatizing to me or hurtful or issues in the church with feminism or the LGBTQ community. And there's no really rhyme or reason. I just have a list that I write things down where I'm like, I should make a video about this. I should make a video.

John Dehlin [02:12:15] So what was the response when you started doing it?

Kayla White [02:12:17] It actually took off pretty fast. At least what I felt. See a couple. Right before I posted the big video, my judging video, I got to up to like 12, 000 followers, and I was shocked.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] That's 12 times YouTube.

Kayla White [02:12:29] Oh, yeah. Like, it was huge. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, and honestly, I feel like when you leave the churches, again, don't talk about it.

John Dehlin [02:12:36] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:12:37] And so even, like, even with Mormon stories, and even with these other podcasters I listen to or other YouTubers, it still felt really lonely. I'm like, yeah, there's ex Mormons, but there's not been very many out there. That's what I thought. I was like, there's not very many. And so I up to 12,000. I'm like, there's at least 12,000 either ex Mormon or ex other religions that can relate to where I've been. And it was this sigh of relief, like, I'm not alone, because I had moments when, especially when I first left, where I'm like, I'm crazy. Like I'm in the wrong even with everything I know. Like, obviously they make it work and they think it's so true. So something, again, that something's wrong with me. It just came back to haunt me over and over and over again. And that's been probably the biggest thing of Tick Tock that has been so good for me is realizing I'm not alone and realizing there are legitimate issues and people see them. Just because of people who are close to me may not doesn't mean how

John Dehlin [02:13:24] does Tick Tock show you that?

Kayla White [02:13:25] Just by the amount of people and the quantity, the quantity, quantity of people that can relate and the comments that people are like, yep, this is me. Or I needed to see this. And I've received, I mean, a lot of hate, but I've received so many cute, amazing, heart wrenching stories of people they email you or DM you, mostly on Instagram. I get a lot of messages. I have my life after Mormonism and that's where I get a lot of them. But I get messages on Tick Tock or in the comments where people are like, I was on the fence and you helped me leave or you gave me, you know, strength to talk to my family about it. And I'm a helper. I like helping people. And it's so great because I know how it felt to finally leave and how freeing and amazing and happier I am now, now. And if I can help, you know, someone who might be on the fence, see the issues or help someone who's alone, whose whole family believes and they don't and they feel like something's wrong with them to be like, come to my Tick Tock. You know, read through the comments. Look, look, there's now over 56, 000 people followers, followers on my page who have similar experiences, whether it's a Mormonism or some other restrictive, you know, religion. And it's, it's amazing. And the community of ex Mormons are the best. I don't fight with people. My comments, I won't do it, it's not worth it. And man, those ex Mormon and my comments, they really stick up for me. So I'm really grateful for them. They're fantastic.

Put Your Finger Down and Community Building

John Dehlin [02:14:43] I think the last few video that we have queued for you really helps illustrate the community because it's this put your finger down thing, which is, I had never seen that before. TikTok, do you want to describe what the put your finger down thing is?

Kayla White [02:14:54] Sure. So you can make an original sound on TikTok and then other People can take that sound and use it.

John Dehlin [02:15:00] Sound and video, right?

Kayla White [02:15:01] Oh, yeah. So they can make it just the sound, or they can choose to have a duet where it's both of you side by side. And they do the. Some of the easiest ways to do this is, you know, you say, put your finger down if you've ever been Mormon, and. And then you can watch them and whatever they put their finger down for is true for them. And so it's a really neat way to be able to see how you relate to people and if they've had similar. Similar experiences as you. And I decided to do a Dark side of Mormonism one and kind of point out some of the more traumatizing or hard things about Mormonism to build a community of people who maybe, you know, you could see. Yeah, they experienced that too.

John Dehlin [02:15:32] And to me, what's kind of cool about it is it's not just you as a creator there, you said there's like 60 of people who, based on the video, where it's split screen, it shows you and your video and your audio, but then they're. It's showing their video too. So when you talk about not feeling alone, it's a way for you to feel like there's real people who are real watchers and listeners that are joining you as part of a community and really resonating with what you say. And it's. It's something that podcasts don't offer, YouTube doesn't quite offer in such a simple way. And it's really powerful, right?

Kayla White [02:16:05] It's so powerful. And again, it helps with that feeling of, oh, I'm not alone. Like, other people have been traumatized by this. Other people feel this. And it's beautiful and heart wrenching because this one especially, you know, it talks about those hard things and. And seeing how many people have experienced it is really sad.

John Dehlin [02:16:22] So for those who are just listening, you'll be able to hear her. Put your finger down. But then for those of you who are watching on YouTube or Facebook, you'll actually be able to see both ex Mormon Mindy or Kayla and then some of her listeners. One of her listeners.

Kayla White [02:16:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:36] Who. Who did a duet with it. Duet. And this is kind of fun.

Kayla White [02:16:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:40] All right, so we'll show that. Now cue the video.

Kayla White [02:16:44] Put a finger down. The Dark side of Mormonism edition. Put a finger down if you were asked an inappropriate question by a bishop behind closed doors. Put a finger down if you felt traumatized by going through the temple. Put a finger down. If you felt shame about your body because of what the church taught you, Put a finger down if you, a friend or a family member was hurt by the church's stance on the LGBTQ community, put a finger down if you paid tithing when you didn't have enough money to cover your own expenses, Put a finger down if you felt like the leaders of the church purposefully withheld information from you, put a finger down if the church ever gaslighted you, put a finger down if you ever felt guilt or shame over a normal sexual thought, thought, feeling, or action, put a finger down if you were hurt personally, physically, or spiritually by going on a mission, Put a finger down if your wedding was nothing like you wanted it to be because it had to be in the temple and for the ladies, Put a finger down if the church ever made you feel less than just because you were a female.

John Dehlin [02:17:42] Okay, again, kinda kind of a little bit heavy, kind of dark, right?

Kayla White [02:17:46] Yeah. Yeah. I like to do a mixture of both because as much as I love to poke humor at it, I think it's also important, you know, maybe if a Mormon sees that, to realize the church causes pain. I think it's easy for Mormons. You know, I thought similarly to say, you know, it's the gospel, it's the people you have issues with. You know, the gospel's perfect and it's not. It's not perfect, and it does cause pain and it does have issues. And I think it's important to address those and to realize you're not alone. Some of those were really personal, you know, like the body shame one. You're not sure. Is anyone gonna put a finger down with me? Like. Like, it sounds stupid, but I would still wonder, like, is this gonna resonate with anyone else? Cause I against that insecurity. I have a feeling broken. Like, was it just me who had an issue?

John Dehlin [02:18:27] And then you find out it's almost everyone.

Kayla White [02:18:29] Oh, yeah. Every single female puts their finger down that they felt less than. And again, it's like, I want to just be like, look like all you Mormons who say they're equal but different. Like, they're not. So.

John Dehlin [02:18:41] So it's hard to be an ex Mormon activity activist. It's just. It's brutal. It's excruciating. Talk about the reactions. I think you did an Instagram video recently where you shared that you were surprised at some ways it was harder than you thought it would be. What have been the really hard parts about being an outspoken ex Mormon activist and ways that you've been disappointed or hurt By. By other people.

Impact of Leaving on Relationships and Identity

Kayla White [02:19:08] You know, I think it's interesting. I worried a lot, especially as it got bigger, because in the beginning, again, I was like, I'll get a couple people. And so as it started getting bigger, I really worried about how I was going to handle Mormons in my comments, because I knew they were going to come, and I worried that they would either make me doubt myself or just hurt my feelings. And I was surprised that it has no effect on me. Like, 99.9% of the time, someone did say I blinked a lot, and that really got under my skin. But, yeah, mostly I can ignore them. And it's not a thing. Like, I just block people or I delete their, you know, comments. Most of them I leave up the ones I take down. Or if you're, like, doing missionary work, like, I'm a member, if you have questions, you should contact me. Me. And I'm like, we're not coming here and encouraging people to go to the church or to stay in it. But anyways, and. But the ones that get me are my family members, you know, people who know me in my real life. Because, again, I feel like it's being silenced. And I feel like what they're saying is what I have to say is of less value or is inherently offensive just because it doesn't agree with what you think or what. What you say about the church. And again, I was able to keep it under wraps for a couple months. I thought I could keep it under wraps forever, but now it's gone to the point with the algorithm, if you live in Utah and get a TikTok, there's a really good chance you're gonna see me.

John Dehlin [02:20:28] Some of them have been viewed how many times? Some of your views.

Kayla White [02:20:31] I mean, I want 2.5 million, another one at a million, a couple at 700,000. Like, so they're getting.

John Dehlin [02:20:35] Yeah, like Utah. The whole state is a couple million.

Kayla White [02:20:38] Yeah, yeah. So there's a really good chance. And again, TikTok's newer, and so it's. People keep getting all the time. And once I realized this was a possibility that my friends and family are going to see, I really grappled. Like, do I tell them? Do I not tell them? And so I decided to tell my sister, who is nuanced, like, she's believing 100%. Don't get me wrong. But she. She has more feminism and, you know, has different. She can see issues in the church. And so I told her, and I told her what it is. I'm like, this is anti you could classify this anti Mormon. This isn't like my YouTube. That was nice and trying to be kind, like, this is my anger side coming out. And I told her about it, and I was like, don't watch it. But it's like Pandora's box, I think. And she ended up watching it, and she didn't have a bad reaction. It was just not great. She kind of was just like, I watched your TikTok. I had some feelings. I cried for, like, two weeks straight every time I thought about it.

John Dehlin [02:21:36] That's so much guilty. Yeah. That she's intending.

Kayla White [02:21:39] No, no, no, no. And I. I do think she was just trying to tell me how she was feeling about it, but I was like, I told you what it was. And I felt like she was almost coming to me, like, punishing me after. I was very clear. And so it was just really hard. And honestly, I haven't even responded back because I haven't. I haven't figured out what. What I want to say because I was really confused by her motivations to say it to me in the first place to tell me she watched it. It. I was like, you. You'd have to tell me. Like, you could literally just go on and not say anything. And so I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what her motivations are. But it's. Honestly, every time I've tried to answer, because we've been talking through Marco Polo, which is video messaging back and forth, I've just deleted it because I always get so mad because again, it reverts back to Mormons can be all over Facebook with, you know, how great their church is. And, I mean, conference weekend just passed and, oh, my gosh, like, it's never ending.

John Dehlin [02:22:30] Stream of just great testimonies and memes and. Yes.

Kayla White [02:22:33] So.

John Dehlin [02:22:35] And quotes from conference.

Kayla White [02:22:37] Yeah. But it's like, the minute I say something that doesn't agree with your narrative, it's inherently terrible and disrespectful. And again, it's like I have to come to grips with more and more. My family's gonna find out. Greg's parents found out, and it was a nightmare. And they. I mean, it's terrible. It's really hard. Again, it's the people closest to me that can do the most damage. I don't care about the stranger on the street. It's the people who are closest to me. And again, it's clearly ex Mormon. Like, don't watch it. Like, I'm not sending it to you.

John Dehlin [02:23:08] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:23:09] And.

John Dehlin [02:23:09] But tick tock.

Kayla White [02:23:10] Is I'm like, but you can block me so easy. I'm not gonna be offended if you block my tick tock. Like, go for it. I don't want to see your Mormon stuff either. If you're doing Norman videos, I block you.

John Dehlin [02:23:21] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:23:21] So it's. Yeah, it's been a journey and I think it's going to be a learning experience.

John Dehlin [02:23:27] I just have to say that, you know, I. There are members of my immediate family that haven't spoken to me in like eight or nine years. And this was, this was even during the time when I was still faithful.

Kayla White [02:23:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:40] But, but the fact that I was talking, obviously talking about problems. There are people who, if I come to their house, they'll leave.

Kayla White [02:23:48] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:23:49] You know, it's, it's, it's intense. There are. We are estranged. Margi and I are estranged from probably half. Over half our family at this point. You know, when I say immediate or extended, people define that differently. But it's, it's ruined a lot of relationships. And it's the type of thing where you really do feel torn because, you know, the one thing there, there's the stereotype or the trope that's like, well, they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone.

Kayla White [02:24:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] And one of the things you show very clearly is you're speaking. Your story makes it very clear that you're speaking from a place of real pain and real hurt. The church has hurt and damaged you. So when you speak, when you're raising your voice, it's not just a bash on the church. It's not just to be a hater.

Kayla White [02:24:34] No. It's what it's telling people. The church isn't perfect. And I think.

John Dehlin [02:24:39] And that it hurt you.

Kayla White [02:24:39] It hurt me so much. And you can't like, minimize my pain because that's maybe not something you experienced, which is what drives me crazy. It's my least favorite when I share something super personal, someone says, oh, well, that wasn't my experience. Like, it just like brushes it off. Like, well, you must have misheard something or understood something wrong because that hasn't been my experience. And it's, it's, it like doubles. It's like salt in the wound. Like, thanks. Like, just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And clearly doesn't mean other people haven't experienced. Experienced it.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] But if you've got 50 or 60,000 followers, it's clear that these aren't just your experiences.

Kayla White [02:25:12] Right.

John Dehlin [02:25:13] Yeah, but that, but then it goes a little bit farther because it's not just so that you have a place to vent. I'm going to guess you have altruistic motives for other people, right? It's not that you want to, it's not that you want to tear people out of the church. What is it?

Kayla White [02:25:30] It's that community again. When you're surrounded by believing family members or friends or both. Both. In Utah or a highly populated Mormon area, it's so lonely and I don't think people understand that. There's always this elephant in the room. I always tell people it's like the church is my ex boyfriend and we had this really great relationship and then I realized he was abusive and manipulative and so I dumped him. But now he's close with everyone in my inner circle and they all think he's great still. And it's like you're constantly hearing about, you're constantly having it brought up and you have to face those demons every time it's brought up. And I don't think Mormons realize by bringing up your church you could be hurting someone. You can have someone relive a terrible experience by trying to do something good and I don't think that's talked about very much. Mormons just think they're doing something awesome by sharing a great quote and they can't. They don't realize it could be really triggering and really hurtful to someone who doesn't believe anymore, had a bad experience.

John Dehlin [02:26:23] So there's that there's helping people find community. But tell me if I'm wrong. It's not that you're trying to get people to leave the church or stop believing, but like let's say 17 year old you, but someone else, right, who is feeling unworthy, who is feeling the body shame, who is thinking about giving their lives to something that doesn't quite feel right, that's thinking about getting married quickly and jumping into four kids in six years and, and if you could know that those people are going to end up feeling super sadder or, or, or learn that the church is true after they've made all the decisions, right? It's not that you want to, it's not that you want to tear them away from the church, but you've got to have a desire for, for them, right?

Kayla White [02:27:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:09] What is that? I think if it's not working right,

Kayla White [02:27:12] if it's not working for you, like there's a reason, like the church really teaches you not to listen to your gut. It's like you don't listen to that. That's the world talking. But, like, if something's not saying right or if you're part of a religion, that doesn't make you happy. I feel like the church glorifies sacrifice, you know, like sacrifice everything for the church and hear those stories, you know, of people who gave their last dime to the church or, you know, gave their oxen or whatever it is. It's glorified sacrifice and martyrdom. Like, that is what you should strive to be. The more you sacrifice for the church, the more righteous you are. And it's such a trap because it's like, yeah, the church is making me unhappy, but we're supposed to, like, suffer almost like we're supposed to work through these things and endure to the end. And. And it's such a toxic belief. And I feel like that in fear is what keeps people in for so long, even if their gut maybe tells them it's not right for them. And if you can see someone on your social media, you know, pop up on your for you page or whatever, who is like, I left and I'm happier. You know, I left because there was issues, you know, you don't have to stay. It's an option, which I didn't realize until I was, you know, 30. If I can be that for someone and be their safe place place, you know, I have this person online who understands how I'm feeling, who's been there and done it and come out the other side and they're better and they're happier. Like, what a powerful thing to be for someone. And it. You know, it's. I've grappled with deleting my tick tock more times. I can count because of my personal family and their feelings and, you know, because it's not nice. The things I say aren't nice or pleasant to hear from Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] Sometimes they're swear words.

Kayla White [02:28:41] I know.

John Dehlin [02:28:41] Or alcohol.

Kayla White [02:28:42] Naughty words. So terrible. But in the end, it always boils down to everything you said. Like, there's a kid out there or a young adult or someone who feels alone and trapped and crazy. Like, why isn't this working for me? What's wrong with me? And if I can be a voice for them until they find their own, I'm gonna do it.

John Dehlin [02:29:01] Beautiful.

Kayla White [02:29:02] It's important. Really important to me. So, yeah, it's not about getting people out. It's. It's not for that. That's why it's ex Mormon, so people can block me or skip past It's. It's for those who are questioning, those who feel alone, those who feel crazy, those who feel like no one else has left the church because apparently there's at least 50 something odd, thousand odd people who have done it and come out the other side.

John Dehlin [02:29:26] Yeah. Yeah. I like to say that I it for everyone who, you know, if we could, like, see the future, like prophets are supposed to, we could see the future and know person A, B, and C, they're gonna love being in the church, have a great experience, and when they die, they're gonna say, man, I'm so glad I was Mormon.

Kayla White [02:29:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:46] I don't want them ever to come to Mormon stories. No, don't listen to Mormon stories. Don't go to her TikTok. Love your orthodox Mormon life. Live in that bubble and enjoy till the end. I have no desire to pull you out of the church, but if you're going to, like, have all the shame, go on the mission, have a horrible experience, come back, marry too early, marry someone you're not compatible with, have all these kids, feel all this guilt and shame, make all these big decisions, and then find out when you're 30 or 40 or 50 that you don't love the person that you're with, that you didn't want to have all those kids, that you wanted to pursue this other career but didn't, and that life ends up this huge disappointment, and then you find out it's not true. Right. Well, I want you to find that out when you're 14 or 16 or 18 and save yourself decades of a life that wasn't the life you wanted to live for yourself. Health. I mean, that. That's. If I could, that's what I would do.

Kayla White [02:30:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:30:42] Do you kind of feel similar?

Kayla White [02:30:44] 100. If I can save up some trauma and the heartbreak and the anxiety attacks and the stress, like it's worth it. Like it's worth the awkward family conversations and. And everything else. I had a sister be like, I feel like you're choosing these strangers over me. And that was really hard to hear, but I was like, she's not wrong. Like, if I can help thousands of people, you know, it's like, sacrifice the one for the mini. And it's. It's really hard. But it's her.

John Dehlin [02:31:09] It's her that's sacrificing you. If the relationship strained, it's not because you will have strained it. It's because she will not have liked. She will have been uncomfortable.

Kayla White [02:31:18] Right.

John Dehlin [02:31:18] With. With your active integrity and. But then it gets framed. It gets flipped around and framed like you're choosing.

Kayla White [02:31:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] Your TikTok over her, which is not what you're doing.

Kayla White [02:31:29] Well, it shouldn't have to be a choice. You don't have to see it. You don't have to watch it. It's. You know, I can still love you and talk to you about different things and no problem. Like, I think when you're a Mormon, you are the church. If someone's criticizing the church, they are criticizing you.

John Dehlin [02:31:43] Yeah. Yeah.

Kayla White [02:31:43] And it's really hard for them to separate that. And I was that Mormon, so I get it. But it just makes it really hard when you're talking out against it because they're like, you think I'm stupid. Like, you think I'm being fooled. And I'm like, that's not what I'm saying. But what can you do? It's really, really complicated, but it's really, really worth it.

John Dehlin [02:32:01] It is.

Kayla White [02:32:02] Oh, my gosh. It's.

John Dehlin [02:32:03] Why? What's been great?

Kayla White [02:32:04] It's been so great. Again, finding that voice has been fantastic. Like, being like, I can now. I couldn't talk in the church, and now that I've left, I have a voice and I can help.

John Dehlin [02:32:12] A big voice.

Kayla White [02:32:13] A big voice. I keep hoping they'll excommunicate me so I don't have to get my records removed.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] You're still a member.

Kayla White [02:32:18] Yeah. Oh, oh, I know. I have the paperwork printed.

John Dehlin [02:32:22] She's a member.

Kayla White [02:32:22] I'm a member. Yeah, we have it printed. It's like been going back.

John Dehlin [02:32:27] Do you want to be excommunicated?

Kayla White [02:32:28] Oh, I would see me the freaking work. Why is it so hard to get out?

John Dehlin [02:32:32] Would you attend your excommunication?

Kayla White [02:32:33] I don't know. Maybe.

John Dehlin [02:32:35] Would you? Tick tock your excommunication? Yeah.

Kayla White [02:32:40] But anyways, just finding my voice, finding community hearing, people say I help them leave again. Those people who are already doubting those people are like, I felt alone. It's just. I can't. I can't swear.

John Dehlin [02:32:51] It's beautiful, right?

Kayla White [02:32:52] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:32:53] Sweet is the work.

Kayla White [02:32:54] And amazing. Like, like, and just to feel like you're making a difference in the world.

John Dehlin [02:32:59] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:33:00] You know, like, I have this reach and I'm able to help those people is humbling and terrifying. You know when you have people messaging you, like, what do I do? How do I tell my parents? Like, it's really hard, but yeah, it's really great. It's really great. And people message me their stories and those are my favorite, you know, like, I did this in the church and this happened. And like, what you do and it's just like I've been there and I can sympathize with them and it's just. I don't know, I love it and it's a really fun creative outlet for me. I really like coming up with the stuff.

John Dehlin [02:33:29] And it's not just you, there's other great ex Mormon TikTok.

Kayla White [02:33:32] So many.

John Dehlin [02:33:33] So any shout outs you want to do? I know you'll leave people out but I will.

Kayla White [02:33:36] I'll forget but. Devil Trout, Katie the human X1 panda girl. Those are like my go to girls. They are so great. And again they are very different than me in the sense that they just like talk about issues in the church. They point out things that are issues in the church and it shows just they're all beautiful human beings. Especially X1 Panda Girl. She's so nice about it. I was like some of us there's a little. There's always me a little bit of bitterness I think. But she somehow does it without the bitterness and I think that's amazing. I can't do it clearly but yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:06] And watch out world. New name Noah has a TikTok. Yes. He's going crazy.

Kayla White [02:34:10] He's commented on my stuff.

John Dehlin [02:34:13] What's that? Like when. When Mike Norton.

Kayla White [02:34:15] I didn't know. I knew I'd heard whisperings that someone had filmed the endowment ceremony back when he had released it and I never obviously looked or anything and now I'm like oh, you intimidate me. I love that he's so confident though. Like he is not gonna take shit from no one and I love that. I'm like nothing you say will affect him. He's like I know who I am. I know what's right. Doesn't matter. It's fantastic.

John Dehlin [02:34:38] Also Exmo Lex who's got a prominent YouTube channel, she started a TikTok and that's shout out to just recently Exmolex and. And there's other great people, so many. Forgive me if I don't mention you but we'll have you on. Like I want to have more tiktokers on because I think it's important and I'm just going to say it like it's reaching the youth. Like there's seminary teachers who are doing tiktoks as part of their seminary classes

Kayla White [02:35:01] but there's a very strong Mormon but.

John Dehlin [02:35:03] But pot, you know 12 hour podcast is going to reach. We reach 40 somethings with like a bell curve where the other some 30 and 20 somethings and a few teens and older people but like you know Podcast has its bell curve curve, and then YouTube has a bell curve that kind of shifts to the left a little bit in terms of the age more into the 20s and 30s, but freaking tick Tock's bell curve peaks in the teens.

Kayla White [02:35:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:35:28] So you're like. You are really striking at the heart of the church, which is the youth.

Kayla White [02:35:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:35:33] That means you're more dangerous than me.

Kayla White [02:35:35] Heck, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] You like that?

Kayla White [02:35:38] I love it. I love it. It's so great. It's fantastic. And you definitely see the youth part. I always say the meanest or most, like outspoken Mormons are young. Like, they're all this age between, like 16 and 21. They're the ones, like, going after the ex Mormons. And it's. It's hard because I don't. I'm not gonna fight with children. I'm not gonna ruin your belief. I'm just gonna block you so you can't see my stuff. Like, sometimes I feel like blocking is an act of love. Like, you don't need to see my stuff. You're a baby.

John Dehlin [02:36:07] So anything we can look forward to in the future with. With your plans?

Kayla White [02:36:11] I have a lot more truthful tunes planned. I've been writing a lot of songs. That's my song spoofs. I have Praise the Man in the work. I love to see the temple. So many great ones. And I'm gonna do another stupid things. I judged people for video. I'm ready for the hate this time. And just. Yeah, just a lot more on, you know, my own personal story and things that were traumatizing that I can make humorous and work through.

John Dehlin [02:36:33] How long do you think you'll be able to do this?

Kayla White [02:36:35] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:36:36] What do you guys.

Kayla White [02:36:36] Yes, it's something I talked to my husband about. I'm giving it a year from when I started. So next June, we'll see. I think eventually. Right now, I feel like I'm in a very angry phase, and I think that's really common for how little I've been out. And eventually, I think I'm gonna find peace and not be so bitter that my life was so dictated by a lie. And when that happens, either I will do nicer ones about the church or kind of just fade away. I think there's always gonna be new and upcoming ex Mormon voices that need to be heard and. And I'm happy to be that voice for a minute, but I'm also okay giving that away to someone who needs their voice heard.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] So my brother got into TikTok. My brother, my older Brother Joel. And he, he just did like fun stuff and then eventually he's been doing vegan stuff. But one thing I noticed is it can really take over your life because you're always thinking about to, to, to succeed at the algorithm, you got to release something regularly. It's got to be good. You got to find out what the trends are and then you got to come up with what you're going to do and keep the list and then produce it. And then you're always checking to see did people like it, how many views, how many followers now. And it, and he's been great. Like, Joel's awesome and there were times where like we'd be at lunch or dinner and he'd be like, just a second, I gotta, you know, and he'd be like, you know, sorry, sorry, sorry. Like. So I guess my question is, does it kind of take over your life a little bit? And, and how's that been for your husband and kids?

Kayla White [02:38:04] It can.

John Dehlin [02:38:05] And for you?

Kayla White [02:38:06] Yeah, it didn't definitely take over your life. I always have to remind myself, I'm like, my worth is not attached how many views or whatever. I try to be really careful. Like I film all my kids are at school or I have downtime at work where I can come up with ideas. And that's why I do a lot of planning. Like the planning happens a lot, a lot in my downtime. But yeah, just being careful and prioritizing that time and again. I don't see it being a forever thing. I, I'm already like, maybe because I've been doing every other day. I'm like, maybe I should go to every three or every four. But yeah, you have to be careful because it does, it takes a lot of work and I work full time and I have my children and my husband and a lot.

John Dehlin [02:38:41] Could you ever do this full time? Like have you, have you been able to monetize yet?

Kayla White [02:38:45] I have been and it's not great money. I mean, it's not terrible. I'll take any money.

John Dehlin [02:38:49] Hourly raid. What do you think you're making per hour right now?

Kayla White [02:38:53] Not enough.

John Dehlin [02:38:54] Like 10 bucks an hour?

Kayla White [02:38:56] Yeah, 10 to 15 I would say.

John Dehlin [02:38:58] But just minimum wage.

Kayla White [02:38:59] Yeah, but it could grow. But I mean, that's. Yeah, that's true. I don't know. We'll see. I would love my eventual goal. My husband's in school, so once he graduates, like a full time job, I'd love to be able to do it like as a part time income. Whether it's tick tock or YouTube. Just some kind of social media to be able to supplement so I don't have to work outside my house and maybe go back to being that stay at home parent I desperately still would love to be. But, you know, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. Then I'll take my money and run and.

John Dehlin [02:39:25] Have you been recognized on the street yet? Like, just kind of walking around. Has anybody noticed you?

Kayla White [02:39:30] Okay. Covid. Covid is saving my life because I wear a mask and I think without it, I have. I've had people from my life recognize me on TikTok and, like, write me, like, oh, I think we went to high school together or. But yeah, no, no one on this.

John Dehlin [02:39:45] Not yet.

Kayla White [02:39:45] No channel.

John Dehlin [02:39:46] But it will happen.

Kayla White [02:39:48] Once the mask mandate is gone, it will be more interesting to see if I'm recognized.

John Dehlin [02:39:53] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:39:53] But, yeah, with the mask, no one knows me. It's f. It's like my superpower. I'd be like Batman.

John Dehlin [02:39:59] It's. It's a. It's fun and it's annoying, honestly. To be recognized. Yeah.

Kayla White [02:40:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:04] Catch yourself lucky. For now.

Kayla White [02:40:06] For now, I'll take it.

John Dehlin [02:40:08] Yeah. Well, you are super funny, you're super talented, but most importantly, you're super courageous and smart and witty, and I freaking love your channel.

Kayla White [02:40:22] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] I love every time you release a video. I love it.

Kayla White [02:40:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:40:26] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:40:27] No pressure, no pressure.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] Keep it freaking up.

Kayla White [02:40:29] I know.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] As long as you can.

Kayla White [02:40:30] I love it. It really is so great.

John Dehlin [02:40:32] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:40:32] And so much fun.

John Dehlin [02:40:33] Yeah.

Kayla White [02:40:34] And I think I'm funny.

John Dehlin [02:40:35] You're great. Yeah. All right, well, any final things you want to say to the audience? Just to close.

Kayla White [02:40:42] No, beyond. Just follow your gut. I spent so long seeing issues in the church and then being like, nah, it's okay. You know, the shelf thing? Like putting on the shelf, like, if there's something wrong, you know? And don't be afraid. Like, I would take all the pain and the heartache I went through and leaving and all the issues with my family and everything I would do all over again because of the joy and the peace and the happiness I found that was always promised to me in the church that wasn't actually there for me again. There are people who find it, but not for me. And be brave, be courageous. Follow your truth, and follow your happiness.

John Dehlin [02:41:16] Nice. One last question. Why I shouldn't ask this now, but I'm going to. Why do. Why allow swearing? Why show coffee? Why show alcohol? Especially when there's this, like, oh, of course she leaves the church and now she's swearing, you know, why do you that?

Kayla White [02:41:33] You know, it was really nerve wracking, especially so alcohol. My dad was hit and killed by a drunk driver. Like, alcohol was demonized in my family hardcore. But again, I said this, I think 100 times, but I tried so long to make myself fit in the box I was supposed to fit in. And I was a circle trying to fit, you know, into a square hole or whatever. And when I left, we told our family, pretty soon after we decided we didn't at all stay in the closet. Closet. We put it public on our YouTube in April over general conference weekend. Because being authentic and finally being able to be myself and support the things I felt noteworthy and speak out about, the things I felt were wrong was so important. And I think there's no greater happiness than finding the authentic self and being able to live that person. And so that. That's why I show it. I'm like, this is who I am. Take me or leave me. I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea. Not even close. People will write comments like, you're annoying. I'm like, I know, I understand. I agree with you on some points. But being authentic was important to me, and I think that resonates with people.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] Yeah. Well. Kayla White, Exmoor. Mindy, thank you so much for your courage, for your wit, your wisdom, your humor, and for helping people not feel so alone. And for giving people a voice and for finding your voice and for sharing it with us all and for taking all the heat and for allowing your family relationships to suffer. Yeah. Thank you.

Kayla White [02:43:01] Oh, well, you're welcome. Thank you for saying that. That was really sweet. Those good comments that keep me going.

How to Follow ExMormonMindy and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:43:06] All right, all right. I've kept you here long enough, listeners. Thank you so much. How do people follow you if they want to follow? Like, let's say no one's used Tick Tock.

Kayla White [02:43:16] Okay. So if you have to get a Tick Tock account and honestly download TikTok, download Tick Tock, make a user account, and then just honestly search ex Mormon, you will find so many great creatives. Yes. That's how you'll get all the creative people. There's a huge community. I'm ex Mormon, Mindy. You can just type in my username

John Dehlin [02:43:32] and they can follow you. When they. When they click on your profile, they'll see it.

Kayla White [02:43:35] Yeah, it's just a follow button, little follow button. And then again, we're at my life after Mormonism on YouTube and Instagram. That's where I kind of sit down and I'M more raw and vulnerable. It's less humorous. And then those crazy white people on YouTube. Yep, on YouTube. That's our vlogging channel. If you want to see my cute kids.

John Dehlin [02:43:52] Yeah. And. And there's lots of other. I just had the camera on me that whole time. Sorry, everyone. And. And there's a lot of other cool tiktokers. And so if you are a cool tick tocker in the ex Mormon world or. Or in the Mormon world or in any of the worlds, just go to mormonstories.org make a comment and list your profile. And it can become like this integrated place of like. Of like all the tick tockers. Because let's. We've taken over the podcast world. Why can't we take over TikTok?

Kayla White [02:44:24] I love it.

John Dehlin [02:44:25] Right?

Kayla White [02:44:25] Do it.

John Dehlin [02:44:25] Mormons and ex Mormons.

Kayla White [02:44:26] I love it.

John Dehlin [02:44:27] Yeah. Yeah.

Kayla White [02:44:28] There's so many great ones. Again, you just search ex Mormon and you're like, whoa. Huge amount of people.

John Dehlin [02:44:33] Yeah. All right. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. Thanks for everyone who makes this program possible. If you donate. Thank you. Less than 1% of our listeners actually donate every year from year to year. We don't know if we're going to be able to continue. If you value this programming, if you want to see continue, please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button and become a monthly donor. Whatever you can afford. It's tax deductible in the US and we're transparent in our finances. And all the money goes to creating this programming. If someone wants to give you money, how do they do it?

Kayla White [02:45:07] Oh, I have nothing. Watch my TikToks. That's it.

John Dehlin [02:45:12] Why don't you get like a. Don't like a PayPal button or a Venmo button or something?

Kayla White [02:45:15] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:45:16] Do it. Will you do it?

Kayla White [02:45:17] I'll think about it. Does that count? Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:45:20] We need to get you guys some money.

Kayla White [02:45:23] Come on. I know, I know.

John Dehlin [02:45:24] This is hard work.

Kayla White [02:45:26] This is so much work. Yeah, but it's so fun.

John Dehlin [02:45:28] All right, well, people are going to start bugging me. They're going to reach out and say, how do I give her money? They did that with Mitch. How do I give Mitch money?

Kayla White [02:45:35] I love him, by the way.

John Dehlin [02:45:36] So great.

Kayla White [02:45:37] He's so funny. Yeah, he deserves way more of a following. I think he's.

John Dehlin [02:45:40] Oh, that's the woman. That's the Mormon woman. Drop that Mormon woman. That man doesn't deserve more of a following than you.

Kayla White [02:45:48] Fine, fine, fine. I. I'm funny, too. He can be funny as well.

John Dehlin [02:45:52] You're freaking awesome.

Kayla White [02:45:52] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:45:53] All right. Thanks, Kayla.

Kayla White [02:45:54] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:45:55] In touch. Hey, let us know if we can help with anything. All right, thanks, everybody. You guys take care. We'll see you again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. Email me@mormonstoriesgmail.com. stay in Touch and reach out if you have ideas on future episodes. Thanks. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.