Introduction and Jillian's Story in the News

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is April 29, 2022, and we are super duper excited to have with us in studio Jillian or. Hey, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [00:00:24] Hello, my friends.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Thanks for joining us.

Jillian Orr [00:00:27] I'm stoked. Super excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] So for those of you who don't know who Jillian or is in the. In the great tradition of BYU graduations, a week or two ago, when she was at BYU provost graduation, she had had some rainbow material sewn into her graduation gown by her sister.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] And when she is, like, on stage, Jumbotrons active camera flashes to her. She. She flashes the rainbows as a way to show LGBTQ support, but also to come out to the world as gay or bisexual. And, of course, that's a big deal because byu, as many of you know, has really struggled with its policies and its acceptance of LGBTQ students, with its honor code, with the law of chastity, and just with its support of LGBTQ students. And, of course, we'll put in our show notes our interview with Matt Easton, who was the valedictorian who came out as Gabe during his graduation speech. We shared that.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] And of course, we also have reviewed elder Jeffrey R. Holland's musket talk, where he basically calls on BYU faculty and staff to pick up their muskets and defend the church against, I don't know, LGBTQ wokeism. I'm not sure exactly how to describe that, but those are a couple past episodes that will give you some context for today. But for those of us who are BYU graduates, including myself, my wife and I, Margi, met at byu. We always sing Rise and Shout when Cougar comes out. I did not plan that. That was just totally. And of course, we are joined by the brilliant, the heartfelt, the insightful Jen Camp. Hey, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [00:02:30] Hi, everybody. Good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] Feeling better? You were a little sick. You feeling better?

Jenn Kamp [00:02:35] A little bit better today? Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Jen comes in. Whether she's well or sick, she's just always reliable and dependable. Thanks for coming.

Jenn Kamp [00:02:43] You're welcome. All right.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] So, yeah. And by the way, Jillian's story is national news. Jillian, do you want to tell. Tell us which media outlets you've already spoken with.

Jillian Orr [00:02:55] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I started to create a list because I was starting to lose them. I've been on. I've interviewed a cnn. I've done People magazine. I've talked with abc, NBC. I have every news article except for Deseret News in Utah. Right. I've met with Some, some newspaper articles in Boston. I've had some from Chicago, so just a handful of them. I mean, Teen Vogue is going to be, is reaching out to me and we're setting something up this week. So it's been busy. It's been a little bit busy.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] I love it. All right, well, the purpose of Mormon stories and I, I'm imagining you going to be relatively new to Mormon stories. We've been around 18 years, but that's, you know, that's a little, little bit shorter than you've been alive, I'm guessing. So anyway, what we love to do is long form. So you've talked to a lot of people maybe for brief amounts of time, but we do long form and we do, you know, a Mormon focus. So what we just want to do is hear your Mormon story as it culminates to today. How does that sound?

Jillian Orr [00:04:02] Sounds great. It is a Mormon story indeed.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] So.

Jillian Orr [00:04:05] All right, got that ready?

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Okay. And we, we are live streaming. So those of you on Facebook or YouTube, please do share your comments and questions and we'll do our best to integrate them. Also, I want to do a little mini series on recent BYU graduates. So I've already put out a feeler. But, but I would love to do in the tradition of like my Losing the Lamanite series where we interviewed, you know, Native Americans who, who had lost their faith or left the church or were still in it.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] And our series on leaving Mormon missions early, which we did, which I'm really proud of. I would like to just interview five or six recent BYU graduates of either BYU Provo, Idaho or Hawaii. So if you qualify and, and I'm not looking for people who graduated five or 10 years ago. If you graduated just a couple, and you want to talk about your faith journey as a, as a BYU student, I invite you to reach out at mormonstoriesgmail.com or DM me through Instagram or Facebook. But anyway, where does your Mormon story begin, Jillian?

Jillian Orr [00:05:15] The day that I was born.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Well, probably in the pre existence. Right?

Jillian Orr [00:05:18] Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Okay, let's go way back then. You know, I was, I've been born and raised very, very religious. I had very involved parents, six siblings, so there's seven of us total. And I, you know, I have been very ambitious in the church and very proactive. I, you know, even when I was in young woman's, I asked the bishop if I could teach primary. I was like this, I want to do that. That sounds fun. And I asked my young woman's leader. I was like, can I teach a full young woman's lesson? Can I try it? And part of it is because when something scares me, I want to run at it.

Jillian Orr [00:05:55] I want to, I want to face it head on. And I just want to run right at it because that's just how I, that's how I work with things that scare me. And so public speaking scared me. And so I was like, let's do this. And so I was teaching. You know, I was a substitute for primary, and I got to teach when I was like, 14 years old.

Jillian Orr [00:06:12] I taught lessons and I became an institute teacher. Actually, in my, after my mission, I, they called me to be an institute teacher. I've taught. I went on a mission to Oregon. You know, I actually served in the temple. I, I served in the temple for about two years or so. So I was very ambitious and very involved. I, I, every ward that I moved into, I would go up to the bishop and I would say, hey, if somebody cancels and they, you don't have someone to speak that day, call me. I'll do it that morning, like you tell me, and I'm there. And I just had this very involved, ambitious, like, drive and passion for it.

Growing Up Mormon in a Large Family

John Dehlin [00:06:49] Let, let's talk about your, your childhood as a, as a entree into kind of, kind of that later stuff. So. Seven kids. Wow.

Jillian Orr [00:06:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] I'm imagining you were raised in Utah, but tell us what your Mormon family was like as you were a little kid and a kid growing up. Whatever you want to share just about the traditions or, you know, what Mormonism meant to you and your family and how it was manifested. You know, family prayer, scripture study, family meeting, you know, anything you want to share.

Jillian Orr [00:07:22] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] And where were you in birth order?

Jillian Orr [00:07:25] I'm fifth of seven.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:07:27] So I'm clearly a middle child. I like to shake things up, get attention and ruin family photos. So I, yeah, I was in the middle of seven kids, and we were very, very like, church was our full world. It was our life. Every morning we had prayers, we had scriptures, we had a devotional, we memorized all the articles of faith. You know, we, my parents were very, very religious. And that was our whole life. Everything revolved around, around our, our spirituality and religion and with our relationship with God. And so I was raised in it, which I am very grateful for, because I do have a very strong relationship with God.

Jillian Orr [00:08:05] And that has played into my journey and has played into my realizations is that I was raised from early on that I could get answers from God and I did have a relationship with. If I just asked, he would tell me. And so, you know, I've all of my siblings, I watched them serve missions, I watched them, you know, have prestigious positions in the church growing up. And it was, it was, it was a good environment, though. Like, I had positive relationships with my bishops, I had positive relationships with my leaders, and I felt very loved and supported and in my, in my raising of my home ward.

Jillian Orr [00:08:44] I was born and raised in Farmington, Utah. I'm a first generation Utah. My mom came from New York. Yeah, mom came from New York, dad came from Canada. And so they, they met at byu. And I remember as a kid, I told my mom that I was going to be her first kid to graduate from byu. And when I got older.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] What about your older sibs?

Jillian Orr [00:09:09] No, they didn't get accepted.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] But you didn't know that at the time.

Jillian Orr [00:09:13] No, no, no, no. And they didn't, they didn't get accepted because they even had better grades than me.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] They all wanted to. Your. Your older four siblings all.

Jillian Orr [00:09:21] I want to say all of them applied for it. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] All right. So you're kind of a prophetess a little bit.

Jillian Orr [00:09:27] Just a bit.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:09:29] So, yeah, it was, it was the dream. I mean, my. Everyone's like, what do you want to do when you grow up? And I was like, I want to be a mission president's wife. That's what I want to be. Because I can. He deals with all the issues and I get to travel and speak and deal, you know, young adults.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Farmington's an intense sort of hotbed of orthodox Mormonism, as I understand it. Yeah, there's like, you know, like Rexburg is like the most intense Mormon region in the world. Maybe Rexburg, Idaho. And then it's probably like Utah county, like Provo. Oh, I have heard, I've heard that about Davis County. Is, is. Is Farmington. Davis County.

Jillian Orr [00:10:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] Yeah. So I'd say. I'd say Davis County, Utah county and freaking Rexburg. It doesn't get as much more intense than that, right?

Jillian Orr [00:10:14] Definitely. No, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] So, like, what percentage of your neighborhood, like three streets would be your ward, basically? What percentage would have been Mormon, do you think?

Jillian Orr [00:10:24] Oh, I would say 99%. And we knew who were not. We all knew who was not, you know, and we were taught that, you know, and it was interesting. We were taught that, like, those who were not, like, they just had a different spirit about them and you felt weird around them because there's a different spirit. But we knew which of our neighbors were not members.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Do you remember primary growing up? Like, I was like you in terms of, like, I want to talk, I want to sing. Like, I got into primary. I love the. The primary songs, and I loved Any Chance I got to speak. So talk about your primary experiences if you want.

Jillian Orr [00:11:01] The. Oh, the primary experiences I remember were shaking things up. My teacher would go get something from the library, and then my friend and I would jump out the window. I remember, actually, I remember I had a teacher who.

Jillian Orr [00:11:15] I didn't love her lessons. And so I remember if I could come up with a doctrinally challenging question, she would go off on a rant, and I didn't have to listen to the original lesson that she had planned. And so I remember asking these questions or, like, getting them on a rant of something else because I didn't like where they were going. But I. I remember challenging things even when I was young. I remember asking questions of like, well, what about this? And what about this doctrine? What. How does this work? And. And they. They loved it because I was very ambitious and I'd ask a lot of questions, you know, and I'd want to be very involved.

Jillian Orr [00:11:51] But, yeah, I just remember my earliest memories of primary was that I would like to shake things up, and I like to get reactions out of people, but I was still very involved. Like, I wasn't. I didn't want to do it in a. In a mean way. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I just liked to challenge things. I like to question things.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] All right. And do you remember your favorite primary songs? Do you have a top? Top two or three? Or was music not a big. Primary song is not a big deal for you?

Jillian Orr [00:12:19] No, music was very big.

Jenn Kamp [00:12:20] In my home.

Jillian Orr [00:12:20] We sang a primary song every single morning.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] Oh, wow.

Jillian Orr [00:12:23] In my home, music is very important to my mother. That was her degree, actually, was in music.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Oh, at byu.

Jillian Orr [00:12:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] That's intense.

Jillian Orr [00:12:30] Yeah, it is. It's. It's good stuff, though. I mean, a lot of my siblings are very musical, and it is. It's something we all very much love. But I. That's where I'm like, do I have a favorite one? There's.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] Okay, pick a couple you love. Do you remember the. I like to. I like to look for rainbows.

Jillian Orr [00:12:47] I do remember that one.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] Or if you don't. Carolyn Pearson's. If you don't walk, as most people do.

Jillian Orr [00:12:53] That one's annoying.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] People walk. It's about inclusivity.

Jillian Orr [00:12:56] I know it is. Doesn't mean you gotta love it too love a message. Doesn't mean I need to love a tune.

Jenn Kamp [00:13:02] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] Carolyn Pearson, much love.

Jillian Orr [00:13:06] Still no. Can't say I have a favorite one off the top of my head. It's been a while.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Okay. No, that's fine.

Jillian Orr [00:13:13] No Book of Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] You like that one? Like that one, even though it's completely, like, super racist?

Jillian Orr [00:13:18] Oh, yeah. I loved being the Indian, though. I was all a fan of that, but now I'm like, oh, okay, yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Do you remember, like, giving talks in primary? Like, not so much.

Jillian Orr [00:13:31] Not so much.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] Okay, that's fine. All right. And your family did the family prayer? Family home, evening kind of scripture study stuff?

Jillian Orr [00:13:38] Yeah, evening scripture studies every morning. Yeah. We were at church every single week. It wasn't even on vacations. All three hours. You find it. We go like it. Just. Just what life was.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] So an orthodox Mormon family?

Jillian Orr [00:13:53] Very much so, yes.

First Awareness of Same-Sex Attraction

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Okay, so as you're going into, you know, my LGBTQ research at BYU, I'm sorry, Utah State, showed that for LGBTQ Mormons, they started to notice their attraction to the same gender or sex. It was around 13 for boys and around 15 for girls or women. As you were entering into kind of that adolescent stage, do you tell us what your experience was in terms of starting to feel attractions to the extent that you're comfortable?

Jillian Orr [00:14:30] Yeah, definitely. That's actually a pretty accurate statistic. I haven't heard that one. So my earliest memory. My earliest memory of. Of having same sex attraction. I want to say I was close to 8 years old.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Oh, yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:14:46] Pretty early. And it was. It was a dream I had. I had. And this is, like, so embarrassing, but I think it's so funny at the same time that I'm like, just embarrassing. Embrace it. I had a dream that I was marrying Reese Witherspoon, of all people. And I just. I think I thought it was so funny, but I remember in the dream, I had these emotions, and I was getting married, and it was exciting, and I remember waking up and feeling so much shame that I was like, oh, my gosh. I. I shouldn't feel this. I shouldn't. I shouldn't want to marry a woman.

Jillian Orr [00:15:13] I shouldn't want. And I. I had. I need to find this. But I wrote in my journal about it that I said, I will. I will never have these feelings, and I will never pursue these feelings because I know that this is wrong and I shouldn't ever have those feelings. So my very first, earliest experience, and then in my teen years, it was about 14 or 15, I had attraction For. For somebody else. For. For a peer that I. Another, you know, a friend of mine.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] In high school or middle school?

Jillian Orr [00:15:40] No, it was middle school. It was right in between as middle school and high school. And I had this attraction to this. To this other girl that was very, very, very strong for me. And it created a lot of cognitive dissonance for me. And I. It got to a point that I. I actually cut off the relationship because I saw what it was and I knew that it was evil and that it was wrong that I couldn't pursue those feelings, and so I cut off that relationship.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Like the friendship.

Jillian Orr [00:16:14] Yes, the friendship. And it was so. It was so painful. And so, like, it was such a painful experience for me that I ended up buying a dog that I bought this dog that. That was like. It was that she was there for me when I was experiencing this, like, this pain of denying who I was. And so I was. That was like my earliest, like. Like the second significant experience that I had.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] I can tell you're starting to feel emotional about definitely because it was just a sad time or because it was

Jillian Orr [00:16:45] painful to deny something. It was. And to villainize it, to make it evil. That was painful early on to deny something.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] 15. Yeah. Turn it off. As the book of more musical says, just turn it off. Like a light switch.

Jillian Orr [00:17:06] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] Right.

Jillian Orr [00:17:07] Yeah. And it was. It was those. Those years that I. And I didn't even understand it until now that I've, like, come out and I've been talking about it, that I realized I had this belief, not that someone told me, but that it was the culture of what was taught in the church, that as long as you didn't act on these feelings, you weren't homosexual. Right. As long as, like, it's like, as long as you don't drink alcohol, you're not an alcoholic. And so as long as I didn't act on those feelings, I wasn't homosexual. And so that's how I thought about it for the longest time, even into my adult years, that I was like, you know, as long as I don't act on that, I'm not that.

Jillian Orr [00:17:47] So I'm okay. Like, everyone has those feelings. We have those feelings of, oh, of addictions, of, like, oh, if I don't look at pornography, then I'm not addicted to it. If I'm. If I don't look, if I don't drink alcohol, I'm not an alcoholic. If I don't act on my homosexual feelings, I'm not a homosexual.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Is that dog still alive?

Jillian Orr [00:18:07] No, she's not. And that brings up emotions, too, because I had her. I had her for 10 years, and she died the day that I broke up with my current girlfriend because of my religion. And that was painful because she was with me the first time I let go of someone that I had feelings for, and she died the week I let go of the second person that I cared for because I thought I had to pick my religion. I'm still grieving. Still grieving. That dog is still grieving.

Jenn Kamp [00:18:53] That.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] You know, that Jen can throw you

Jillian Orr [00:18:55] the tissue box mindset. Yeah. You don't want all the mochos all over, right?

John Dehlin [00:19:01] I'm so sorry.

Jillian Orr [00:19:02] Yeah, it's. There's. There's a lot of grief there and a lot of feelings I have there.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] Yeah. Well, we'll. I guess in the story, we'll. We'll get there.

Jillian Orr [00:19:12] I know I'm like. I, like, say something, then I jump ahead.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] Oh, that's okay. No, that's perfect. That's perfect. So what does that do to you, psychologically and behaviorally? You're 15. You cut off the friendship. You deny what you're feeling inside, and you just, like, get. Get your dog. And what. What do you do? Do you double down with the gospel? What do you do?

Jillian Orr [00:19:35] Yeah, you suffocate it.

Jenn Kamp [00:19:36] You move on.

Jillian Orr [00:19:37] And you. You support the doctrine that you. That hides what you feel.

Homeschooling, High School, and Social Life

John Dehlin [00:19:45] So what was high school like for you? And you? Is this bountiful high or.

Jillian Orr [00:19:51] Well, technically, it was Viewmont, but I was actually homeschooled.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Oh, okay.

Jillian Orr [00:19:55] You can probably tell by how socially awkward I am, my lack of hygiene.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Don't perpetuate those stereotypes.

Jillian Orr [00:20:01] Oh, no, I just. That's. It's. No, it's just funny. But, yeah, so I was. I was homeschooled up until my college years, actually. And so I was. And that's. I think that's also a part of, like, you know, I was. I had very good education at home. I did. And I actually am grateful for that because the. The ability.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] When I was your mom. Home school.

Jillian Orr [00:20:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] Wow.

Jillian Orr [00:20:23] So. And. And I had a lot of. A lot of other curricular activities in, like, other colleges. Like, I actually took a lot of college courses at 16, 15 years old. And so I had a lot of resources, but I was grateful for my homeschooling experience because I was taught earlier on that if there was something I wanted to learn, I could learn it and, like, envelop myself in it. And it wasn't just about learn and regurgitate. And so I was Very grateful for that experience. That I had a love of learning up up until college so I could just pursue whatever was exciting and I could, you know, envelop myself in it or when I was a kid I actually had all these requirements given from my mom, you know, of like science and math and grammar and all these things.

Jillian Orr [00:21:06] I'd wake up at 6:30 in the morning and I'd get them all done by noon or by 10 o' clock so that I could go out and make a fort in the backyard or so that I could go like dig a hole and do so, you know, so I could like go create or I could go build something. And so I was very, you know, very ambitious in that aspect. But yeah, I was homeschooled. And so do you have a sense

John Dehlin [00:21:26] for why your parents, I mean Davis county, those are some well known, good, probably quality high schools, maybe among some of the better high schools in Utah. I imagine the, the social opportunities would be out of this world. You know, Davis Darts. You know, I'm just thinking of like, lot of, a lot of fun stuff happening. Do you have a sense for why your parents wanted to homeschool you guys?

Jillian Orr [00:21:51] They started before, before I was, I, I was young. They started with my older siblings. From what I understand and I've, I mean, yeah, from what I understand is that they had, there were challenges that some of my siblings were having with specific teachers or with their education or their ability to learn that they were, they were trying to be forced into a box that was just really hard for them to, to work with. And so my mom decided to, to homeschool us to try and take a different approach and try to try to support us in a different way. And it worked very well, very well for us.

Jillian Orr [00:22:28] I mean my siblings, they're all very successful in what they're doing and they've, you know, they've gone and I have different siblings have, have degrees. And so that's, from what I understand was that it was also to be very like very home based and to be also very religious based too, because I think that was, you know, a priority with my parents to have that involved in our, in our raising.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] But I would guess that the, like the seminary programs in these Davis county schools would be off the charts and the student body would be 80, 90% faithful. So I mean it. So I'm. But, but then again there are. Orthodoxy can sort of say hey, even the mainstream. I guess orthodoxy would say the, the mainstream religious kind of average is, is insufficient. Do you have a sense for whether your parents were like, my kids aren't going to get the religious upbringing or influences that they need.

Jillian Orr [00:23:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] If they go to public schools.

Jillian Orr [00:23:22] There was a piece of that too. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] In, in Utah, Davis county, like Davis county isn't religious enough. Like, I'm not trying to shame your parents. I. It's, it's interesting. It's fun.

Jillian Orr [00:23:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] Like Davis county isn't religious enough.

Jillian Orr [00:23:34] But it was. Yeah, but it wasn't that. It wasn't in all aspects of life. Right. That the history didn't include the Book of Mormon history that, you know. And so, I mean, I, I even had siblings. My sister went to American Preparatory Academy, which was more religious based. And so that's when, that's when my mother did start.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] Is that like a charter school? It is like a Mormon based charter school.

Jillian Orr [00:23:57] Yeah. American Fork.

Jenn Kamp [00:23:58] I taught kindergarten there.

Jillian Orr [00:23:59] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] You did?

Jillian Orr [00:24:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] Oh, fun.

Jenn Kamp [00:24:03] Hi. All my former students.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] Is it an intense school?

Jenn Kamp [00:24:07] Yeah, I really love. My kids went there too. Yeah. It, I just from, for my kids, it was that on math reading. I forget what the other one was. Math, reading and something. They just went to what level they were at instead of in. Had to stay in their grade. And so my kids that were more advanced who could go upgrades for those, those things. So that's why I chose it.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] It wasn't for the religious stuff.

Jenn Kamp [00:24:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Okay.

Jenn Kamp [00:24:38] No. But they, I did know that the, the people running it were religious.

Jillian Orr [00:24:43] Oh, yes.

Jenn Kamp [00:24:43] So.

Jillian Orr [00:24:44] Very much so. And that's, that's actually why my mother was okay. Having my siblings go back into a school system was because it was very religious focused and that it was, that was the theme of it, you know. And I, I actually ended up taking some classes online from their history classes that, you know, always tied it in with the Book of Mormon or always tied it in with the grove, the olive tree and all of that stuff. So the history was woven in and out of it.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] So did you ever feel like you were losing out on friends and fun, athletics, social opportunities by being homeschooled?

Jillian Orr [00:25:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] Being left out?

Jillian Orr [00:25:21] I did. I did to a certain degree because I knew that if I, I knew at any point they would have been supportive if I wanted to. I mean, we did go to seminary. I mean, I did do driver's ed, but if I wanted to do sports or something.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] Seminary in a seminary built like release time seminary during the school day.

Jillian Orr [00:25:40] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:40] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:25:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:25:41] So you're there with all the high school kids. Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:25:44] Yeah. So I did, I had friends and, you know, I did okay. End up having social. But, like, most of your social comes from your ward anyways.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] So you were going to war dances and young women's and. And youth activities through the ward.

Jillian Orr [00:25:56] So that. That social was there too. Okay. But I think a lot of it did cause me to be, like, I had to sometimes over, like, overcompensate. Like, I had to go out of my way to create social because I've, like, that's something that is very much my personality. And so I do think that that contributed to my ability to connect with people and to, you know, seek out friends and to. To do that. But, yeah, I did feel like that there were aspects that I did miss out on that I. You know, because there's. There's days that as a high school student, you're like, hey, y' all want to come over to my house? And no one thinks to call the homeschooler. That sucks.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Yeah. Yeah, that's what it was.

Jillian Orr [00:26:31] Painful. And so there was a time during my high school years that those wardies, even though we got together and we were fun, you know, on Sundays, and we were hanging out on, you know, those days that they just kind of distanced and became. They just kind of went towards their own friends. And so high school years were probably a little more lonely. But then I did start going to college some during those years, so those ones kind of, you know, just kind of filled in and replaced, but it wasn't the same. I didn't have a typical high school experience like most people did.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] And I don't want to project this into your story, but I'm imagining if you're pushing down your attraction to women, minimizing your social interactions reduces the. The potential of you developing feelings for another woman.

Jillian Orr [00:27:22] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] I don't know. You think?

Jillian Orr [00:27:24] Yeah. And also because I wasn't. But also the opportunity wasn't there as much either. Wasn't around a ton of kids my age as well.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] That's what I mean. Yeah. So that's like a bonus if you're going to be packing down who you are.

Jillian Orr [00:27:37] It extended. And I think that's why it extended it. And everyone's like, how are you figuring this out as an adult? I'm like, well, just go with it.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] We'll see.

Jillian Orr [00:27:47] Just my experience.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] Live in the present moment.

Jillian Orr [00:27:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] Yeah. Talk about the development of your testimony in those high school years. Like, were you. Were you learning a lot? Did you ever stumble on, quote, anti Mormon stuff? Were you praying to Heavenly Father to gain a testimony? Were you reading the Book of Mormon, like, Just talk about the development of your Mormon testimony in high school.

Developing a Mormon Testimony as a Teen

Jillian Orr [00:28:13] I mean, it's the same as kind of what I was saying is very, very focused, very straightforward. Like, I was volunteering as a teen or a high school to speak in seminary to, to talk in church to. Like, it was. I was studying and growing. I never looked at anti Mormon doctrine because if you do that, then you get sucked in. You know, if you, if you even look at it, you get deceived, you get to sinkhole. And so it's something you just never looked at. You just continued studying and pursuing what you know, I've always had. I've always had a very strong relationship with God that I've always been able to ask and get answers. And so that continued especially through my teenage years. That, that's what I was. I was. I would say that's what I was known for was being this very strong, very strong, straightforward member of the church.

Jenn Kamp [00:29:00] That's.

Jillian Orr [00:29:01] That was my very. I had a very strong identity as that.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] What about your relationship with Heavenly Father? Were you trying to get your own witness? Were you trying to do Moroni's promise, prayed and know the Book of Mormon is true? Were you feeling like you had a communication with Heavenly Father, getting your prayers answered, that sort of thing?

Jillian Orr [00:29:19] Nothing towards the church or towards the Book of Mormon itself. It was all around, during my teen years, it was all around, like, faith in goal setting and knowing what to do next with your life and knowing what to accomplish or where I wanted to be or what I wanted to pursue. And so it was very much in the present moment, focused. It wasn't necessarily, like, I just, I just went with, like, profits are true. Awesome. Great Book of Mormons. True. Love it. Let's go. Like, I just didn't question those things. It was all more around, like, my life and the focus of what I'm doing next.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] You're on the train.

Jillian Orr [00:29:51] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] You're on the train. You're on it since birth. Your whole family's on the train.

Jillian Orr [00:29:55] Good.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Even question.

Jillian Orr [00:29:57] Refreshments. We're doing great.

Jenn Kamp [00:30:01] The. That first relationship that you said that you had to kind of stop. What. How old were you?

John Dehlin [00:30:10] 15. Right.

Jillian Orr [00:30:11] I want to say it was 16, because it went from 15 into 16.

Jenn Kamp [00:30:16] Did she. Did she. How did she react? I guess. Did she like, you, like, all of the. Well, like, I'm not even asking that. Like, even, like, the friendship, like, to all of a sudden have one of my friends be like, can't be your friend anymore.

Jillian Orr [00:30:33] Like, she knew.

Jenn Kamp [00:30:34] She knew.

Jillian Orr [00:30:35] Yeah, okay. She knew. We never called it what it was. We just kind of knew and just kind of like, yeah, we need to be done. Yeah, it was like, because we both knew. Like, we just knew that what it. We knew what it was. We knew what it was.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Was it, was it mutual? Because you want to say, can you

Jillian Orr [00:30:51] say, would you rather not say I for her sake? I'm not going to give a ton of information, but it was mutual.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:30:58] It was. Yeah. And so like, it was mutual and it was. It. We, we came to a point that we both knew and we both just stopped and parted ways. Like there was no question about it. She didn't question why I didn't. We just knew. And so I was like this, we can't continue like this.

Jenn Kamp [00:31:13] That's hard. I'm sorry.

Jillian Orr [00:31:15] Was.

Jenn Kamp [00:31:15] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:31:20] cool. So any other experiences, religious or non religious, from your high school years that you think are really important to your story that you want to share before we jump into kind of post high school?

Jillian Orr [00:31:36] No, not that I can think of.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] Did you, did you care about sports at all? Athletics?

Jillian Orr [00:31:41] Yeah, I did. I was actually pretty athletic. I didn't do anything as far as high school. But when I went to ldsbc, I did join a rugby group. I joined a rugby team. It's kind of my jam. I love beating people up a bit. In fact, my mom actually, she. I wanted, when I was in high school, I forgot about this. I wanted to join the hockey team and my mom said no because she was afraid that I would hurt other people.

Jillian Orr [00:32:05] She wasn't afraid about me getting hurt. I would hurt other people. I actually did. I did, you know, up in junior high, I actually did play softball. I played some, like, some baseball. Like I love sports, so. And my family's not a very sports focused family. We didn't watch sports. We didn't play sports. But I was probably the one that like was more so towards that. So I did it when I saw it when I could. But here and there.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] What about dating in high school?

Jillian Orr [00:32:33] Dating boys didn't do it that much. Not a ton of opportunity when you're homeschooled. Some did come up. Some, you know, you meet people at stake things or after track or, you know, people's siblings are like, oh, she's really cool, she's ambitious. But very minimal dating, very minimal.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] So did you ever kind of fall in love with a boy kind of thing in high school?

Jillian Orr [00:32:56] I had a crush on a kid for like a summer thing for like. But like nothing really came of it. He mostly liked My friend, I always had that. They always liked my friends because I always had very feminine friends. And so I always found that like people wanted. The guys wanted to date my friends. And so I was like, okay, okay, that's fine, that sucks. But.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Oh, that brings up. So gender. Let's talk about the gender binary. Like, like, you know, boys masculine, women feminine. Personally, I have a gender non binary. Well, I have gender non binary people close to me. Like, the gender binary is a problem. So what I'm hearing you say is people didn't like the fact that you weren't stereotypically feminine as a young woman or.

Jillian Orr [00:33:45] I wouldn't say they didn't like it, but I just don't think that they were necessarily attracted to it.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] The boys.

Jillian Orr [00:33:49] Yeah, because I think they value. Because like we hung out and we would like make long boards together or we'd go and we'd ride our bikes to the gas station or we'd go play in the streams as kids. Like I was one of the boys. I was actually, when I was a little kid, I was the leader of the boys. Like I had this little neighborhood boy group that we'd go cause trouble. But yeah, I've always had, I've had very masculine energy. I would say I'm a split of like a masculine, feminine energy, but all of the girls that I hung out with had very feminine energy. And so they were the ones that the boys were attracted to even though they enjoyed hanging out with me.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] Did you feel frustration or shame about the masculine energy part? Growing up in a state where the binary is really reinforced and encouraged?

Jillian Orr [00:34:36] I wouldn't say that I felt shame, but I always, I did feel. What's the word?

John Dehlin [00:34:45] It's different.

Jillian Orr [00:34:45] I didn't feel desired. I didn't feel that I was attractive because of that. So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say that they didn't want me or I shouldn't have been that way because I think they. I think everyone was like all for it. I think they promoted because I'm. I. I was very like, you know, I was a tomboy. And that was fun. And people thought that it was very fun, but I never felt attractive.

John Dehlin [00:35:07] What was that like for you to not feel attractive to boys in Utah, as a Mormon? Was it sad?

Jillian Orr [00:35:18] Yeah, it's sad. It's really sad.

Jenn Kamp [00:35:20] It's.

Jillian Orr [00:35:20] You just feel. You don't feel good enough. You don't feel like you qualify for what they want. And so I just. Yeah. And so that's why even. Even dating when I Did into my teen years.

Jenn Kamp [00:35:33] They.

Jillian Orr [00:35:33] I found that guys actually were intimidated by me or they. They felt. Actually, someone I dated said that he didn't feel that I needed him because I have a very assertive personality. But, you know, it just. Yeah, that's where it kind of came in.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] So that's a couple things you're kind of struggling with. You're struggling with having known. You felt attraction to women and feeling undesired by Mormon boys and. And maybe like you weren't good enough or something.

Jillian Orr [00:36:06] Yeah. But you just move on and you just keep yourself busy. You find new passions. You find new things that. That shake things up or that give you that adrenaline to move on and put your energy towards.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] Yeah. Because, I mean, you are really outgoing, kind of assertive person. I can. I can see that going two ways. One is you get depressed and lose confidence, and you just kind of wither and get depressed and kind of start to fade. And the other is to kind of react is like, I'm going to be stronger and happier and funner and achieve and be successful as a. And I'm not saying that wouldn't be native to you anyway.

Jillian Orr [00:36:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] But that certainly can be a way of coping.

Jillian Orr [00:36:42] Right. It was a way of coping, and it's a. It's a catalyst for it. It's like, all right, I'm going to put my energy back into this because this is where I feel successful. This is where I feel validated. This is where I feel I am. I can be successful in and that I can be identified in.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] Yeah,

Jenn Kamp [00:36:59] that's got to be hard. I'm just thinking that's got to be hard in that situation to not. Not feel good enough for the boys to like you. But then where you are feeling good and attracted to someone, having to stop that.

Jillian Orr [00:37:16] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:37:16] At the same time.

Jillian Orr [00:37:17] Yeah, it's isolating.

Jenn Kamp [00:37:19] Yeah,

Jillian Orr [00:37:22] it's very isolating.

Jenn Kamp [00:37:25] I don't know if I was just going to read a question that Gerardo has. He's on the chat here. He said, let's see. How did your parents or family handle the fact that you were not stereotypically feminine? Was there anything in the family that.

Jillian Orr [00:37:45] No, not really.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] Like, fem it up kind of thing.

Jillian Orr [00:37:50] No, I wasn't. I never felt like I had to change. I would say that my sisters kind of helped me because I, like, I still wanted to. I still want to be feminine. I still want to wear a dress, but I also want to get dirty on the weekdays. Like, I want to get into the mud and, like, all that Stuff. And so I never felt that my parents. My parents were always supportive. I mean, my mom was like, yeah, I was a tomboy, too. Like, my mom loved to ride her bike outside and to play sports, too. And so it was. They never. I never felt like I wasn't allowed to be that.

Jillian Orr [00:38:18] I do feel like sometimes my sisters wanted me to show up more feminine at times because they're, you know, because that's how they were. Is they would show up feminine. But at times, like, there are times I'd wanted to and times I didn't want to, but I never felt that I had to be one or the other.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] Yeah. So the next question I'm going to ask, number one, it's always kind of sensitive. And number two, to, you know, we want to make sure there's informed consent, that you only respond if you want to and if you feel good about it. But I ask about law of chastity stuff in those adolescent years because in many ways it. I've just noticed this pattern of guilt and shame being a really integral part of the Mormon experience and a really important binding force for. For Mormons to the church. Because if, And I'm not saying the church does this intentionally, but if they can get a kid feeling shame and guilt and that they need the church to be made clean and pure, then that's sometimes a way they can lock people in.

Jillian Orr [00:39:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:39:25] So don't answer anything. And obviously I don't want you. We don't want you to answer anything you're not comfortable with. Were there any feelings of worth, worthiness that you struggled with? Kind of in those high school years that were prominent to you, including having to talk to the bishop about stuff or repent for stuff or just any of that stuff.

Jillian Orr [00:39:50] There wasn't actually or even private stuff. No, I think there was this. I mean, there's. That just the only. The only. Like, I never had. Never took it to the bishop, Never took it to anybody, actually. Like, just kind of took what. Just those feelings that I had. Expressing those feelings or how I felt.

Jillian Orr [00:40:12] No, I don't. I never had any of that shame. I think the only thing was just that moment when I. When we realized I was in, like, this other girl and I. That we had those feelings, like, just the painful shame of, like, this is wrong. We can't do this. We need to move on. And so just feeling grief of letting it go, but also the shame of, like, that is wrong. And I'm a sinner and I'm not worthy if I pursue those feelings. But other than that, like, as far as law of chastity or those kinds of things, I never had shame or, like, anything around that.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] So, you know, did you ever come out to anyone about those feelings at the time?

Jillian Orr [00:40:50] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] Wow.

Jillian Orr [00:40:52] Kept them locked down for years.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Wow. Okay. Yeah, we're really great. We just got a Super Chat donation in from Reuben. Hey, Ruben. Ruben writes, Having graduated at BYU in 2009, I couldn't come out of the closet. I applaud her bravery. It's too bad that BYU should not use spiritual blackmail. It's too bad the BYU should use spiritual blackmail to withhold one's degree. Personal life and academics should be separate. We'll get to the BYU stuff. But, Reuben, thanks for the super chat. Rely on your donations to keep all this alive. So, Reuben, we appreciate you and thanks anyone who wants to support us through Super Chats. We appreciate it. Okay, so. All right. I think that sets us up for graduation. Any. Anything else you want to say before we go on to post graduation?

Jillian Orr [00:41:46] No, not that I can think of. Really?

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:41:51] Yeah, I think we're good, so.

John Dehlin [00:41:52] Oh. Oh, sorry. One last question. I was gonna ask messages to young women about education and careers, their roles in life, kind of the. You know, there's a stereotypical message that many young women have received over the years who are Mormon. It's like, your education is to become a mommy. You don't even necessarily need an education, and you're no careers. Mommy is. Mommyhood is your career. And having lots of babies did. Is that. Were those the messages you received or not? And how were you conceptualizing your potential life and. Or career by the time you're. You're graduating from high school or. Or as a homeschooler, you know, leaving home?

Education, Career Expectations, and Marriage Plans

Jillian Orr [00:42:39] Yeah, I would say that that was half and half. So obviously, my mother very much valued education because she went to school and received her degree in music. And so, like, education has always been a focus. And, like, just what was normal? Like, after high school, you go to college, and I. So I never felt that education wasn't for me or that it wasn't, you know, that I shouldn't pursue my ambitions or, like, that I shouldn't pursue a career like that one. My parents have always been very supportive, and, like, that was. That was a good thing for me. But I do. I do know that having a family was always the focus of.

Jillian Orr [00:43:18] At the end of the day, that my education would benefit a family, that my education would support my kids, that, you know, if I had an education, it would strengthen My relationship and all these different things, like, it all still came back to the family, which, you know, for better, for worse. I don't, I don't say that it was super negative, but it definitely, it did affect my mindset of the priority of having a husband. I know that. So. But yeah, education was always a good thing for, for my raising, for go growing up.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] So you were set out in education, but career wise, stay at home mom was your plan?

Jillian Orr [00:43:56] Oh, that one I always had a hard time with. I always had a hard time with that one because I, I like working with teens. That's been my career. Working with youth has been my passion. Um, and so I wasn't necessarily like, I didn't want to be a stay at home mom. I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to, like, I wanted to have a family, but I didn't want to be a stay at home mom. I wanted to still have a career. And the church doesn't show women who do that. They don't really, they don't really support that. They don't, you know,

Jillian Orr [00:44:25] and so I just, I never saw, I never saw people do that because even people in my ward, like, I can't even think of a mom growing up that I know of in my ward that had like a full time career and was a successful woman. It's just like they were all just moms.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Invisible.

Jillian Orr [00:44:37] Yeah. And so, and I, and I understand and value the importance of being a mom and I love it and I still want to do that, but I didn't see that career. Like, I feel like you had to pick one or the other.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] Had you read the proclamation on the family by your senior year and had you had any thoughts or feelings about the kind of stakes in the ground that the Mormon proclamation on the family had made?

Jenn Kamp [00:45:04] No.

Jillian Orr [00:45:04] I mean, yes, I had because that was part of our, part of my education, but it just supported my own homophobia. That's what it was, is it? I was, I was stronger in it because, wow, this came out before Prop 8 came out. Like, wow, this was such a revelation that it happened before this, this big event. Because it just, you know, when you, when you have your shame, you want to suffocate. Like you want to suffocate that for you and you suffocate that for others.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Yeah, yeah. There's that line from the Book of Moron musical. Find the box that's gay and crush it.

Jillian Orr [00:45:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] So the proclamation of the family. What about the gender roles? Part of the proclamation of the family. Do you remember having feelings about that? That the woman's job is to nurture the kids and the man's job is to provide?

Jillian Orr [00:45:58] Yeah, that one. That one was always like. Like, really? Do we agree with that? Actually, there's someone in my ward who I really respected, where the wife, Actually, now that I remember, she moved into our ward, and there was a lot. Some people actually had negative thoughts about it in our ward, but she worked professionally, and her husband stayed home with the kids. And I remember people being like, oh, we love them, but that's not what's supposed to happen. That's not. She's not supposed to provide for the family. It's his job. And so I remember there was, like, some negative. Some negative comments around there, but I was like, good for her. Hell, yeah. She's awesome. Like, she was someone I admired. Really. I. I definitely admired her for that, but nothing to the point that really challenged it for me. I was just like, I don't know how I feel about that.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] What year did you graduate from? Well, graduate from high school, whatever that means for a homeschooler.

Jillian Orr [00:46:47] 2012.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Okay, 2012. All right, so you graduate from high school. What's next in your Mormon story?

Jillian Orr [00:46:57] So I went to Utah State University. Loved it there.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] Yay. Go Aggies.

Jillian Orr [00:47:02] Go Aggies. I would have stayed there. I would have gone back there. If my life hadn't been in Salt Lake City, I would have loved to go to that school. But if we did, we wouldn't be here now, would we?

John Dehlin [00:47:10] Hey, I was there at the time I was at Utah State. Were you at the time you were there?

Jenn Kamp [00:47:15] Wow.

Jillian Orr [00:47:16] It would have been besties.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] I was getting my psychology PhD.

Jillian Orr [00:47:19] Oh, that makes sense. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] In the counseling center.

Jillian Orr [00:47:20] So, yeah, I was at Utah State and wanted to be a vet for a while. Then I was like, no, I want to help people, so I want to be an emt. And then I was like, actually, instead of helping people, because I actually started, I got my EMT and was doing, like, volunteering on ambulances. And then I was like, actually, I want to help people change behavior rather than just, like, help with emergencies. And so that's kind of like. Utah State was, like, a little transition for me, but I was there when they changed the age for the mission. And so when they changed it, I went immediately right after because that's. I was like, all about that. I was like, I'm going on a mission. So I went on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] By the way, Utah State has a great psychology program. They have great Psychology. But you didn't know.

Jillian Orr [00:48:04] Didn't know. Yeah, I bet they do. I bet. You know, I know a lot of high school, a lot of colleges have good ones, but they're not as cheap.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:48:11] And they're not as. As desired upon by the Mormons as BYU is. BYU is a holy grail, Right?

John Dehlin [00:48:17] It is. It is.

Serving a Mission and Finding Her Voice

Jillian Orr [00:48:18] I know what every Mormon wants to go.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] So you decided to go on a mission.

Jillian Orr [00:48:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Were you 19 or.

Jillian Orr [00:48:23] Yes, yes, yes. Yes, it was. I was 19.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] All right. And did you always want to serve a mission or was that.

Jillian Orr [00:48:29] Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:48:30] I always wanted to serve a mission because I'm one who wants. I. I'm one who wants to have a voice. I'm one who wants to be heard. I'm one who wants to change. Like, I want to get out there and make a difference. Like. And so that's in my understanding, to the best of my understanding, that's what you. That's how I could do it. Right. That's how you made a change, was you stood up at the pulpit, you went on a mission, and you supported and fought against those things that fought against us. So that's. So I was taught that I could do that.

Jenn Kamp [00:48:59] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] So that's awesome.

Jillian Orr [00:49:01] Yeah. So went on a mission. I had good experiences. I actually do love my mission. I served in Oregon. I loved those people there. Loved them. I. I gave everything, my whole everything. Like, I became a sister trainer, leader, my mission president.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] That's like a. That's like a leadership position for sister missionaries.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:20] The highest.

Jillian Orr [00:49:21] Yeah, it's the highest one you can be as a sister in the mission. And so I became that pretty quickly. And I helped with a lot of. A lot of training sisters, and I trained a lot of sisters. And my mission president actually said that if sisters could be APs, I would be. I would have been an AP. And they actually called me AP Sister, or.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] That's awesome.

Jillian Orr [00:49:43] Which, at the time, I was like, that's the best compliment ever. And now I'm like, how dare you be so sexist? Like, I should have been.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:53] That's right.

Jillian Orr [00:49:54] Yeah. So I. Yeah, I loved my mission, and I. I gave it all, and I. I fought hard and I worked hard, and I never had anything that challenged or questioned or, like, I. I was all in, and I. I finished out well, and I loved it. And I wanted to go speak everywhere after I. After my mission, go speak in all the churches and all the firesides and all the places. You know, I. And they. They opened up Facebook when I was there and so I started a blog and I started Facebook and told my stories and other missionaries were sharing my stories. And so it was again, it was just my way to make an impact and my way to make change and to inspire, inspire other people. So it was good. I, I did love my mission. Always challenges, but it was good.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] Up through the end of your mission, did you ever get messages from Mormons that are like, hey, ramp it down. Like you're, you know, kind of to communicate, hey, women, are you're being a little bit too much for a woman in this church or, or were people very supportive and encouraging?

Jillian Orr [00:50:57] Supportive.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] That's so great.

Jillian Orr [00:50:58] Yeah. I always like, I had such a great experience. Everyone was like, man, like they knew who Sister Orr was, they knew who she was. They knew that like, that I worked hard and that like I had incredible stories and had incredible relationships with people. And I helped a lot of sisters to have fun on their mission and I helped them to like to believe in themselves and I helped them to believe that they could do things that were uncomfortable. And so like that's always been my platform, you know, that's always been my drive is that if there's something you want to do and there's something you want to make a change, like you can, you can do that, you can push, you can work hard and you can have fun while doing it and you can be yourself while doing it.

Jillian Orr [00:51:33] And that's what actually a lot of sisters would say after they would go on exchanges with me, which is like they spend a day with me, then they go back to their, we'd like swap companions is they would say sister or taught me that you can have fun while doing this and you can be yourself. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be this like perfect pristine. Because I remember, I do remember going to like sister trainer leader meetings where you'd go, you know, all those leaders that they had in the mission and they would just like, I hated those meetings. I hated them because these sisters would go there and they're like, I'm just trying.

Jillian Orr [00:52:06] We're trying so hard to be perfect. And I, I'm stopped singing Disney songs so that I could be more righteous so that we could have more success in our, in our areas. And I hated them because I was like, oh my gosh, they're so, like, they were so self deprecating because they weren't perfect. And I, and I would go away from those feeling like disgusting because I was like, I am not where they are like, I don't. I love Disney songs. Is that okay? You know, or I. I would just do things in a different way.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] What's wrong with Disney songs?

Jillian Orr [00:52:35] They are of Satan. No, from the perspective, they don't focus on Christ.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] They're not Christian.

Jillian Orr [00:52:40] They're not Christian. No, they don't focus on Christianity.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] So there are missionaries that were against singing Disney songs everywhere.

Jillian Orr [00:52:46] And so. And it's just this. This idea that the more righteous you are and the more perfect you are, the more success you'll be, the happier God will be and the more people will receive our message. And so I hated those. And I came away from them and I was like, no, I don't. I'm not. I don't agree with that. But I was just like, you know what? I'm just going to do these things my way. The way that works, in the way that I connect with people, because I've. I do. I believe I have a gift of connecting with people and being able to relate and understand and empathize, but also inspire them and empower them to improve their life. And that's what I was doing on my mission, is helping people improve their life.

John Dehlin [00:53:20] And sometimes when someone has confidence or wants to speak or wants to have a voice, there are like the lobsters in the bucket that want to pull that person down. Did you ever have people say, well, sister, Sister, or is prideful or sister, or is, you know, an attention seeker? Did you ever have people coming at you?

Jillian Orr [00:53:39] I've always had that.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:53:41] I actually got that from the elders. The elders would say stuff. They wouldn't say it to me because I was. I was often in the outskirts of my mission where I wasn't around a lot of people. Like, people had to share wards with other elders. And I was like, that sounds awful.

Jillian Orr [00:53:54] But I. Yeah, I just heard things in passing where they're like. Where they would say, like, oh, sister, or is so arrogant, or so, you know, just that she always has to say something and people would feel too vocal. Yeah. And this has always been my whole life is that I have a personality that people love or they loathe because I will say something. And to some people, that's safe. They're like, I know that she will always say something and that she will tell me how it is. And to other people, that's not safe because they feel like I'm a threat. And so I've just accepted that people either love me or loathe me, and I'm okay with that. I'll Just say, I'll just say my truth. Whatever it is, that whatever I feel is right at the time is what I speak.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] That explains BYU graduation. You learned that earlier. Anything else about your mission experience that was important to your faith or, you know, sometimes cracks develop over time in someone's faith or testimony. Also, were you, did you have success? You know, anything you want to talk about, like people you brought to the church or whatever? Anything else you want to say about your mission?

Jillian Orr [00:54:55] Yeah, no, I did feel, I, I do feel like I was very, you know, in the eyes of a missionary of what the church regards as successful. I, I didn't know this, I don't know how accurate it is, but someone told me that I was like the highest baptizing sister in the mission, which to the church is like, oh, wow, that's amazing. That's incredible. So, you know, there's still, there's still some guilt of things that I, I ask people to do or to change in their life that I, I look.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] You ever an investigator who is lgbt?

Jillian Orr [00:55:24] No, I didn't actually. I never, I never did. Which is ironic for, for Oregon or like you would think, but no, I didn't. Never came across that in my mission. But no, just things, just things that you ask people to do or you expect them to have to do that, you know, you think is right at the time that you're like, you know what now it doesn't even matter. It doesn't even matter if you go to church six times to get baptized. It doesn't matter, you know, or someone who's like, oh, I do my own sacrament at home. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you did that?

Jillian Orr [00:55:50] But now I'm like, cool, good for you. You know, any self improvement you want to do, that's awesome. Good for you. So there's just little things that you have, you have regret, but I don't have a lot of like, I have regrets looking back. But at the time I'm like, you know what, I did the best that I understood. So I, there's things that I'm like, I wish, I wish I. You understand better now. But I did the best. I understood how.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] Yeah. Okay, so you finish your mission around what year?

Jillian Orr [00:56:22] 2013.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:56:23] And you're gonna ask me all timelines. And I'm the worst at that.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] I love timelines, but don't worry about accuracy.

Jillian Orr [00:56:29] I'm not gonna 100 agree to any timelines, but I'll do the best that I can. My sister's, they're like, She. I have a good internal clock. I know what time it is, but I have a terrible internal calendar. I'm like, isn't it Friday? Is it Tuesday?

John Dehlin [00:56:41] Okay, so you graduate, you finish your mission, come home in glory, speak at all the firesides or steak, whatever.

Jillian Orr [00:56:50] Yeah. State conferences, youth conferences, young women's events. Like, I was all about that. And everyone's like. I would go, and they'd be like, thank you so much, and then word would get out, and I'd go speak at all these different events.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Did you ever have in your mind, kind of like, someday I'll be in the Relief Society general presidency?

Jillian Orr [00:57:07] Ew. No. Relief Society sucks. I wanted to be with the teens. I want to beat the youth.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:57:13] I was like, young ones would be fun, but I was like, I just want to be. Yeah. I wanted to work with. Yeah. Youth. I wanted to work with teens. I wanted to work with young adults. That's where I want to be.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] What about efy?

Jillian Orr [00:57:24] Oh, I applied. I wasn't accepted.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] Oh.

Jillian Orr [00:57:27] Oh, I hated that. I applied for efy, and I applied for hdfy, where you, like, go travel to, like, foreign countries. Those. Those were the worst interviews, I'll tell you, because they put you in a room with a bunch of people, and then they're like, all right, we're gonna watch you. I. We want you guys to come up with an icebreaker game. And so it really became this, like, whoever was the loudest and the most flamboyant and was the most assertive, and I was like, I hate this. We're all, like, competing with each other to be the most outgoing and show busy. And I was like, I don't.

Jillian Orr [00:57:57] This sucks. I actually didn't, like. I went to. Yeah, and I didn't like it either. I actually. Because they do these things where you have to, like, create these chants and create all of these, like, skits, and. And I actually was able to get out of them because I would ask my EFY counselor deep, doctrinal questions that we. That I. That she wanted. She felt like she needed to, like, explain and. Or. Or discover or explore with me. And I got out of doing the loser chance, and then I was like, oh, sorry, guys, I can't do it with you on stage because I didn't learn it with you.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] Interesting. That was before your mission.

Jillian Orr [00:58:32] Yeah, yeah, it was before my mission, but I wanted to do fy. I wanted to work with them, but wasn't accepted.

Returning Home and Deciding to Attend BYU

John Dehlin [00:58:38] Okay, so you. So you are on the circuit. What about after your mission? What about, like, continuing Your education?

Jillian Orr [00:58:49] Well, after my mission, I was broke as a joke, you know, being fifth of seven kids, they can't. My parents would have loved to pay for all of our education, but that's just. That's a lot of kids, a lot of education. And so I. I was. My whole life, I was responsible for my own paying for my education. So I got a job working with youth and treatment centers. Loved that. Loved doing that. And then I was. I started my own company, and then I started doing that for a year, and then I.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] What kind of company?

Jillian Orr [00:59:17] An outdoor gear company. So I designed a specific type of hammock, and then I did that for five or six years. Lot of fun. Got to go travel around the country, do different trade shows, meet with. With bigger companies like Cabela's or Big five Sporting Goods. So that was fun for me too. But even during that, I was like, you know what? This is cool. I'm good at sales. It's fun. But I want to help people. I want to work with people. I miss that. And so I started looking into how I could prevent youth from getting into treatment centers. I wanted to try and be on the path of when they're trying to make those decisions. And so I.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] Prevention instead of like.

Jillian Orr [00:59:54] Like rescue.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] Yeah, Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:59:56] I wanted to do more prevention instead of rescue.

John Dehlin [00:59:57] Because Utah's like a national headquarters for sending troubled youth.

Jillian Orr [01:00:02] Yes. In RTCs.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] Yeah. And so what is the RTC?

Jillian Orr [01:00:05] What is that? A residential treatment center.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:00:08] And so I. Yeah, I worked in residential treatment centers, and I loved it. There's things that, you know that are. That are hard or you don't agree with or different things that are. But I. I was grateful for my experience because I think it taught me a lot of leadership and a lot of, um, I learned a lot of therapeutic understandings that helped me further my. My desire to do that.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] So what stuff didn't you agree with at the RTCs?

Jillian Orr [01:00:29] Um, I'm not going to talk about those ones right now.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] Okay.

Jillian Orr [01:00:32] I want to stay focused on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] Good, good, good.

Jillian Orr [01:00:35] So just the. The stuff that I want to focus on is, you know, empowering and. And people being seen. And so with that, I then started working at the Boys and Girls Club just here in Murray, and I started working as a teen director. And that was by far the best job I've ever had in my life, working with teens and doing. Giving them experiences, because, you know, the Boys and Girls Club, they help youth that are. They are, you know, some that are latchkey kids, some that are Refugees that are homeless or just youth that need a place. And so started working there and moved up in the company.

Jillian Orr [01:01:13] And so that was after my mission. But when I was going back to the Boys and Girls Club, my friend at the time was like, you know, you could, you should go back to school and, and this would help your career. And I was like, wow, you are right. And so I started, you know, I had the money at the time and started applying for, for FAFSA and I got some support with grants. But that's when I started going back to byu. Is I was working with youth, I was in psychology. I was learning all these practices and these things that helped benefit my job and it was awesome.

Jillian Orr [01:01:41] Like I was able to do live application of what I was learning. And so, you know, we were doing, we were running programs like sex ed programs and we were, you know, teaching things like drug awareness or dating or like identifying unhealthy relationships and behaviors. And that was so cool for me. And so, excuse me, I was at BYU at the time and so that's where I still am. I was able to move up in my career as the overall director of the, of the largest location in the state of Utah and go to BYU at the same time. Working full time and going to school full time and paying completely for my education.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Yeah, that's, that's really hard to do.

Jillian Orr [01:02:21] It's a heavy load while trying to navigate my sexuality and a relationship that I was in denial of.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Okay, wait, you just jumped ahead. Okay, so, so yeah, you're fulfilling your prophecy to your mom of getting into byu. So is that hard to do? And how'd you do it and was that awesome to get in?

Jillian Orr [01:02:39] Yeah, so I, again, I would have gone to Utah State because I loved, I love the culture there. I always said, because actually it changed in my teen years. I was like, I don't want to go to byu. Going to BYU is like going to school with your mom. And one of my friends reminded me of that. She's like, so how I was going to school with your mom. I was like, shut up. I've always gone to school with my mom. I was homeschooled.

Jillian Orr [01:02:58] But yeah, they had, they, they do have a prestigious, well known psychology program, one of the larger ones. And so, and it was affordable. So I went to byu. I was accepted. I remember telling my mom at like a family reunion and she was so excited because the only sibling to get into school into byu.

Jillian Orr [01:03:16] And so it was really exciting. It was really exciting. And so I was all for It. And here we go. I'm going to plus this.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] It's the Lord's university.

Jillian Orr [01:03:22] It is the chosen, chosen child got to go to the chosen university. My siblings would kill me for that one. I'm the favorite, you guys. So, yeah, I went to byu and they were so excited about that. And everyone was all foreign supportive.

John Dehlin [01:03:38] So some people, like me, just love to be way culture because I just wanted to be swimming in Mormon orthodoxy. Having been raised in Texas, how was. But some people have culture shock where it's just like too much of a meat market or too much superficiality or too cheesy or too Mormony. How was BYU culture for you?

Jillian Orr [01:03:57] I thrived at the beginning. You know, I really thrived because with my history of. Of understanding religion and. And, you know, understanding doctrine and being so proactive with it, I just. I would thrive in it because I had so much to say. I had an opinion on things. And so at the beginning, it was. It was great and it was fun. But I also never lived in Provo. I never lived here or in. Like, I never lived in that commuter. I was a commuter.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] So you weren't in the dorms? You weren't ever in the. No student housing. That's a different experience. Yeah, it is. Yeah. You're having to drive back and forth from freaking Farmington to BYU Provo until Covid.

Jillian Orr [01:04:37] Until Covid hit. Actually. I was living in Bluffdale at the time, and so I was right in the middle by Draper. So I was in the middle of my job in Murray and at going to Provo. And so I would drive to school in the mornings for some of my classes, and then I would drive all the way back to Murray, and it was like a hundred miles in day and then drive back home. Like, it was 80 to 100 miles. I was commuting. And so I. I tried to navigate that as best I could. And then. Yeah, and then Covid kind of came in clutch and threw everything online for me. And that helped a lot.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] Except when I'm thinking about my BYU experience, like, being in the dorms, making all those friends your freshman year, and then, like, rooming with them after your mission. And then, like, living in Provo, you always, like, you've got all these people, social groups you're hanging out with, you're dating people, and, like, and you're so close to campus, so you can go, like, bowling on campus or the varsity theater, like. And I'm super old. So, like, I don't even know if BYU still has a varsity theater. Or international cinema. But like, but like, living close to campus and with other BYU students was a super integral part of like my enjoyment of BYU overall.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] And if you're living freaking in Farmington, commuting and having a full time job and Covid hits, I guess in some ways you're not having maybe the ideal BYU experience, especially as it relates to opportunities to meet other students in your student ward and date and get married and all that kind of stuff. Get married young.

Jillian Orr [01:06:15] Well, and taking also into consideration that I went to BYU older. Yeah, I went.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] Oh, how old?

Jillian Orr [01:06:20] I. Again, timelines. You're gonna get me on this one. I want to say, like I was going there 23 or 24.

John Dehlin [01:06:29] That's when you started.

Jillian Orr [01:06:30] Yeah, that's when I went there. And so I was, I had already started my career.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] Oh yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:06:34] And most people were coming right out of high school.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:06:37] And so part of me was like, yeah, I, I do know that. I knew that I was missing out on what everyone's typical BYU experience of like going to all those things that you say, you know, like the parties and the events and the games and all of that, and having that BYU pride. I never, I never had. I, I loved it because it was, it had a soft spot in my heart, in my home, but it was, I never had that experience because I was going into my career and then letting my education catch up.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Got it. Yeah. Okay. So. Yeah. So then did things start to get complicated at some point for you? Either faith wise or sexuality wise or life wise? When did the, when did kind of things start getting complicated or weird? Were there cracks that started to form?

Falling for a Best Friend and Recognizing Her Sexuality

Jillian Orr [01:07:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Talk us about the, the. As the. How does the drama start building?

Jillian Orr [01:07:32] Drama starts building.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] What's the beginning of that?

Jillian Orr [01:07:35] As a friend no longer felt like a friend.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] All right, tell it, tell it. Tell us whatever you can tell us about.

Jillian Orr [01:07:40] So I had a. Yeah, it was a friend of mine, a really good friend. We became best friends and everybody knew, like, we were just really awesome friends.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] Do you, a student or just someone from home or do you not want to say?

Jillian Orr [01:07:51] Not gonna say.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] Okay, that's fine.

Jillian Orr [01:07:52] I want to respect that for her.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] That's fine.

Jillian Orr [01:07:54] Yeah. So we just became really good friends. And then it became as, like there were feelings that started to start to surface and I think that like, and here's the thing is like now looking back, it's like sometimes it's embarrassing to think of how much in denial I was or how much I try to suppress, but I did been doing that my whole Life. Right. And so it was part of my. It was part of my own. My own tendencies and behaviors and reactions and responses and coping. And so I started to have these feelings, and immediately I started to. I started to try and date as much as I could.

Jillian Orr [01:08:27] Date, date. Because as long as I dated boys, it meant this wasn't a relationship. And so in that, you know, and there's those. Those feelings of, like, oh, we just have a codependency. Oh, we're just. This is just something else. And it became very, very painful for both of us that I was dating guys and that. And we're like, oh, but like, oh, my sis. You know, sometimes your sisters get jealous. Oh, she's just getting jealous that I'm giving someone else attention. Anyways, that's where some cognitive dissonance started to begin.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] So prior to having feelings for this woman, had you had any feelings for boys? Had you had any relationships with boys? Any of that, Any attractions or relationships with boys ever?

Jillian Orr [01:09:15] Up until. Yeah, actually, I did. I dated a guy. The longest I dated a guy was nine months, and it was before I met her. And we. Yeah, we had a. We had a pleasant relationship. It was decent. I broke it up because he. He wasn't as. He wasn't as good at communication as talking about deeper topics about, you know, really addressing feelings. And so that kind of became hard. And when we broke up, he. He told me that I laugh too loud in movie theaters.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] Gross.

Jillian Orr [01:09:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] Yuck. Well, as I understand it, oftentimes when you finish your mission, your mission president has this exit interview with you where he often tells you to get married as soon as possible and have as many kids as possible.

Jillian Orr [01:10:04] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:10:05] So. So, like, I'm thinking you dated someone nine months. Like, so many people come home from their mission, find the first person they're attracted to, and within a couple months at. At most, they're engaged. Were. Did you have that timeline that is often imposed on Mormons in your mind at all? Or was that even. Were you aware that that was a thing? And if so, did you have. How did you square that with your ambitions and how you wanted your life to go?

Jillian Orr [01:10:34] Oh, I saw that for sure. I mean, yeah, that typical talk. It was very rote about at the end of your mission to go, this is your next step. But I. The whole time I was doing this, I was like, no, I'm pursuing a career, and if he shows up and can keep up, then we're good. Like, if he shows up, then we're good. But if he doesn't come then that's fine. I'm gonna keep going. Like that was my mindset all the time. And people would talk about that. They're like, how's dating going? I'm like, no one can keep up. So I'm still dating, I'm still interested. Like I'm, I'm open to it, but I'm just like, ah, no guy could keep up. And they, and they would say, like, even guys that I've dated, they're like, I never felt like you needed me. Like, I don't. Oh, I don't need you.

John Dehlin [01:11:11] That is so freaking awesome.

Jillian Orr [01:11:13] Yeah, it is.

Jenn Kamp [01:11:14] But.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] And not Mormon. Like, this is in some ways one of the most non Mormon stories I've ever heard. If, if, if you mean gender stereotypes, you know, dating stereotypes, you know, that, that sort of thing.

Jillian Orr [01:11:28] Yeah. And I just attributed it to my personality. I was like, I'm just assertive. I was always that. I'm just assertive. Right. I'm very proactive and ambitious that I'm going to go for what I want and if. And I wanted someone who didn't lean on me. I wanted someone who went for what they wanted beside me. Right. That they could, we could live our individual lives together. That was what I wanted. I didn't want someone to lean on me. I didn't want someone expect me to lean on them. But I wanted someone who our lives lined up and we could do it together. And I never found a guy who I just, he.

Jillian Orr [01:11:59] They never came around. And I date. I dated a lot of guys after I started going like after my mission. Like I went on a lot of dates. I always tended to date rugby players. I'm very attracted to bearded masculine men, which is very interesting, you know, but.

Jillian Orr [01:12:15] And that's, that's where I, I do know that I am bisexual. I do think that it is a scale and I do think that a lot of women are on that, on that scale with. Or men like that there is a scale to your attraction. And so for me, I would say that I have like an 80% attraction to women and that there's 20% attraction to men. So that there are men that I'm attracted to and that I, yeah, I definitely could see myself with. But majority of it and the majority of my attraction, things that I love, I have been able to find in women.

John Dehlin [01:12:44] Yeah. And I'm guessing this isn't just a Mormon thing, but my sense of Mormon men is that they want to be needed, they want to be adored, they want to be first place in the relationship. And that an assertive smart. That to be an assertive smart, strong, confident woman is a major disadvantage to finding a Mormon male mate.

Jillian Orr [01:13:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] That's my. Was that your experience?

Jillian Orr [01:13:15] Yeah. And actually after breaking up with him as well, and he was the one that told me he never felt like I needed him. I actually someone recommended a book about how to. It was called the Queen's Code. I think it's called the Queen's Code, man. I haven't thought about this book in a long time, but it was about how to empower your man to still feel valued and respected while still living your life. And I remember reading it because I was like, I don't. I was like, wow, I don't let men feel needed enough. I don't. That's so interesting. And so like I was just like having these processes of like, how do I let them feel needed and how do I navigate that? Because it's just not my personality. I don't fall into that.

John Dehlin [01:14:01] It's so much cognitive load. There's so much to deal with in life. So how do I take care of the man's feelings so that he feels good? Self esteem, like it's just pathetic.

Jillian Orr [01:14:12] Make you feel so good about yourself. Because I feel great about myself, but apparently I have to do it for both of us.

John Dehlin [01:14:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you gonna say something, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [01:14:22] I was just gonna say I was just thinking it, but that, that is kind of taught to the women within the church that, you know, it's kind of their. Like they're the help mate or they're the help me.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] Right?

Jenn Kamp [01:14:39] Yeah. Like they're the. Whatever it says in the scriptures, you know, it's kind of. And like when we used to, to in the temple, you know, agree to like, you know, follow our husband and our husband. Yeah. Hearken. And our husband would hearken to God. Like there was a. They were like one step ahead, you know, and we're kind of taught like, like even in just like everyday church, like in everyday church week, like we, the men have a meeting. We make, we make sure it's all coordinated and we, we provide the refreshments and you know, we clean up and we do the dishes in the kitchen and we, you know, there's just this like we're, we have to take care of them kind of feeling like they can't just have their meeting and do everything.

Jenn Kamp [01:15:28] Like we're responsible for them, like helping them so that they can be successful at whatever their calling is or whatever. And so I think that's unfortunately taught rather directly or indirectly within the church to the women within that. Did you feel that same thing growing up?

Jillian Orr [01:15:53] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:15:54] Did you see. Feel that?

Jillian Orr [01:15:55] Yeah, I would, I would see that and recognize it and I would like. But I also thought it was just a mindset, less than like an indoctrination per se, because I remember that the way that I got out of that thinking was I would look in the scriptures that there were prophetess. There were women in the scriptures who are prophetess, you know, like Miriam are these women that I was like, I love them because they are female prophets. And that's why I was like, yeah, I can be that. Like, that gave me permission to step outside of that expectation. And so that's why I never really felt that I had to be that because there were other woman within the box of the church that I could look up to that were more accurate to my lifestyle and my personality.

Jenn Kamp [01:16:39] I love that you did that. I love that you found that for yourself. I wish that more women would have found that for themselves within that. I remember praying to Heavenly Father after I read the Book of Mormon because I was getting frustrated that there weren't women in the Book of Mormon, like stories of like heroic women and things like that. And I remember praying about it one time because I felt like, I'm like, where are your daughters? Like, where, where are the things that you're wanting to teach us? All I'm saying is, you know, be a helper. And I'm like, I want to, where's the. I want to be a hero. Like, where's the heroes? You know? And so I'm, I, I really love that you found that for yourself. I think that's brilliant. I think that's maybe a foreshadowing for you.

Jillian Orr [01:17:41] Maybe. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:17:42] Have your life. I think that's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] I'm curious about role models. So one of the. This is going to sound weird maybe to many people, but one of one huge crack in my Mormon testimony was being told how many women were named in the Book of Mormon versus the number of men that were named in the Book of Mormon. It's something like only six women are named in the Book of Mormon and like three of them are from the Bible or something crazy like that. And there's like 150 men. Like, that ratio was just outrageous to me once I kind of had my feminist awakening. But I never ever stopped to think about it before that.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] Right. But then I also think about like, is a, is a. So like the pro. There's like Nephi. There are prophets that I could relate to as a Mormon man or like general authorities. Like, oh, well, I love Elder Maxwell or I love Elder Oaks or Elder Holland or whoever. Like, did you ever have a Mormon female role model like Sherry Dew? Was there anyone that you could look to in the church, Mormon church hierarchy as a woman and say, man, I really want to be her. I really want to look up to her.

John Dehlin [01:19:00] Was there anything or. And then you mentioned like more like prophetesses like Ruth. I don't know who that would be, but there aren't a lot of stories. Most of the women in the scriptures are harlots or, you know, shadow characters or behind the scenes kind of thing. So what did you do for Mormon female role models or scriptural female role models?

Jillian Orr [01:19:20] Yeah, there were two. The first one was Miriam. That one always, like since the beginning in the, in the Bible.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] What did she do?

Jillian Orr [01:19:26] She was considered a prophetess.

John Dehlin [01:19:28] And she did, she's probably got like three verses.

Jillian Orr [01:19:31] Like, did she, she did something cool. I remember she, like, she led people. I remember there was something I, I, it's been a long time since I've thought about it, but she did something in the Bible that she led people or she received revelation from God. It was something that was like, normally the prophet's role, but there was a prophet at the time and she still was considered a prophetess. And I loved that because I was like, cool, I can be a prophetess. That's awesome. And then the second one I remember growing up was Julie B. Beck.

Jillian Orr [01:20:01] Julie Beck, Yeah. I looked up to her because she would make bold claims that were very, very strong. Very, I don't know, controversial, I guess. But there were things I loved about her that I remember saying. Oh, if, if there was a prophet test today, it'd be Julie be back.

Jillian Orr [01:20:18] I didn't, I don't, I never. Sherry Dew was so, so I actually, I'm still curious to this day if Sherry Dew is a lesbian personally.

Jenn Kamp [01:20:26] But I've had that same top.

Jillian Orr [01:20:28] Not going to spread any rumors, but I won't either. I mean, she has her selection of any. Anyways. Anyways.

John Dehlin [01:20:36] Yeah, well, I won't get into that, so. And we'll share. I'm going to share a link to an article by Gianna Reese that talks about Number of women vs number of men in the Book of Mormon. Did it ever bother you that there were so few female role models in scripture and, or in the church leadership? Like you even talked about in ambition, Become a mission president's wife.

Jillian Orr [01:20:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] Like they don't even have their own title.

Jillian Orr [01:21:01] Right. They are entitled under him. What. I can only have success as a. As a what? I wanted to be a speaker or as this position because of my husband. Like, I wanted him to get that so that I could do what I wanted. And I. When I recognized. And it's. No, because when I recognize that it was so few, it empowered me to be like, okay, then I'll be it. Like, it wasn't like this. Oh, were so oppressed. It was like, fine, challenge accepted. I'll be the one that does it then.

John Dehlin [01:21:29] Nice. Okay, you may not want to talk about this or you may. You know, they've made some changes in the Mormon Temple ceremony over the past few years in response to feminist critiques. You know, you used to have to veil your face as a woman, and now you don't.

Jillian Orr [01:21:46] I didn't know that you. No, I didn't know that you.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] So you.

Jillian Orr [01:21:50] When you haven't been in a long

John Dehlin [01:21:52] time, but when you went through, you didn't have to veil your face.

Jillian Orr [01:21:54] No, I did. But they don't. Do they still have to do that?

John Dehlin [01:21:56] I thought they took the veil away.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:59] I've heard that.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:00] That they took the veil away just recently. Very recently.

John Dehlin [01:22:03] Yeah. In response to feminism.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:05] Well, I don't know if they took the veil away, but they don't develop their face.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] Okay. Okay. Yeah. So they. I don't think you have to veil your face anymore. In the Mormon Temple. The other. The other one. Historically that, again, they changed in response to feminist critiques. You. The. The. The man would. Would covenant with God, and then the woman would covenant with the husband as he hearkens to God, but the woman was covenanting with God, and then the man was coveting with God. Do you remember any of having any. Or do you want to share and. Or do you have any memory of any concerns with gender equality in the temple ceremony or having feelings about that?

Jillian Orr [01:22:49] Nothing. Nothing extreme, really.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:51] No.

Jillian Orr [01:22:51] No extreme emotions or opinions or thoughts? I do remember just being like, why? I just. That part.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] I just.

Jillian Orr [01:22:57] Why do I have to covenant to my husband? Why can't I just. Like, aren't we good, God? Like, I'm pretty sure you and I are good. Like, we've been really good this whole time. Like, why do I have to become second?

John Dehlin [01:23:07] You remember that?

Jillian Orr [01:23:08] Yeah, I do.

Jenn Kamp [01:23:09] I remember.

Jillian Orr [01:23:09] Like, why do I have to become second? But I'm like, but if I love them and we're a team, then we're a team. So, like, you just kind of Justify it. You know, you do mind acrobatics to just get around those kinds of things. Yeah, but nothing too extreme. That challenged my. Really. I questioned.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] Okay, okay. So that was a bit of a. An exploration. Now let's get back to. You know, you tried dating a lot of men. You knew you were attracted to very masculine men, but. But overall, 80% of your attractions were to women. So you develop a friendship. Do you want us. Do you want to take us now into that story?

Coming Out to Family and Writing a Letter to God

Jillian Orr [01:23:47] We'll go back. Yeah. So again, I was. I was dating men, and it was causing a lot of conflict within our relationship as best friends, and so.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] So your friend was feeling things about you dating men?

Jillian Orr [01:24:05] Yeah, we. Yeah, and it was. It was like. It was hard for me because, like, I would go on dates, but I'm like, I would much rather be hanging out with her. Like, I'd much rather be over there.

Jillian Orr [01:24:17] And so I actually never dated anybody that long during that period. Like, again, the guy before her was the longest. Anyway, so during that time, I had a really awesome mentor. Really awesome mentor who was also my best friend. And she.

Jillian Orr [01:24:35] She was my boss. And we would talk. We would talk, and I would. I'd go in there and I'd be like, hey, let's talk about this. And she's like, yeah, that's. That's really hard. She's like, when you're ready to talk about this, I'm like, what? Talk about what? And she's like, whatever you want. Whenever you're ready. I'm like, just say it. And I just wanted. I just wanted her to say it. I wanted her to say it because she. She knew it, and I knew it, and I was just like, I'm just having. I'm just having problems with my friend. We're really codependent, and this is really hard.

Jillian Orr [01:25:03] And she's like, yeah, must be. And, you know, she was so great. I mean, I spent hours in her office and, like, over. I mean, it was a long period of time that I. I grappled with this, and things would be okay, and I wouldn't date people, wouldn't date guys. Like, I wouldn't find anybody. We. And everything would be fine again, and we'd be good, and life was awesome, and then I would be interested in someone, and then it would go down again, and then maybe she would go on dates. And, you know, and so we just tried to stay in this friend zone. Just tried to stay in this friend zone. And it was painful.

John Dehlin [01:25:31] Like, was it ever explicitly acknowledged verbally between you and your friend, like, we both are attracted to women or so denial. Or like, I really like you, or we can't do this because we're both or never even acknowledged. Wow, she's faithful. She was faithful at the time. To the church.

Jillian Orr [01:25:51] Yeah. That's why even going back, I'm like, oh, this is painful to say because it looks so obvious now, but, like, you know, you spend 24 years suppressing something, you spend so long convincing yourself that as long as you don't pursue those feelings, you're not that. So I didn't think I was. That I was like, no, I don't pursue these feelings, so I'm not that.

Jillian Orr [01:26:12] And so, yeah, it was. It was painful, but was this constant, constant battle between feeling I had to choose between my spirituality and my sexuality, you know, of just those feelings. And so my. I came to. I was meeting with. I was meeting with a therapist or. And we were talking, and she's like, I want you to say something. And I was like, what? And she's like, I want you to say this.

Jillian Orr [01:26:39] How does it feel? And I had to say that. How does it feel to be bisexual and know that I can be loved? And I said, what did you say? She's like, you heard me. I was like, no, no. I couldn't even say it. I couldn't say it.

Jillian Orr [01:26:54] And I. I sat there and then I said it. I said, how does it feel to be bisexual and know that I'm loved, That I can be loved? That hit me. That was such, like. That was a crack.

Jillian Orr [01:27:10] Was this biggest crack in my. In my world. But I was like, oh, my gosh, this is who I am. This is. And it hit home. It was like, that is true. That is real. And it was beautiful because I was like, wow, I can be loved. Be this. And I can be loved.

Jenn Kamp [01:27:35] Hey.

Jillian Orr [01:27:36] And so that shifted. And once I. Once I felt that, I was like, okay, that's what I am. Wow, cool. And I was able to move with it because once I understood, like, it just. It just changed my thought process of how I saw it. And it shifted. And I was like, okay, let's do this. That's what I am. And so then it was. You know, then it was grappling with, we. I am this way, but we can't be in a relationship, because that's not right, according to the church. And so we agreed, and we broke up. And that's. That was when my dog died. Oh, that was painful. It was this. In one week, I was starting a new semester. At byu, I had. She and I agreed that we. We recognized what it was, and we identified it, and we were like, we cannot be this.

John Dehlin [01:28:23] So you. You recognized it, but she. You came out to her. But then she would have had to recognize it and come out.

Jillian Orr [01:28:30] It was. It was super mutual at the same time. Like, look, this is it. Like, yeah, it is what it is. And so, like. But we can't. We can't because it's wrong. And so that same week, my. You know, I had. I drove to my sister's house in Cedar City, and when I was driving back, she called me, and she's like, scout just passed out. Scout was my dog. And so I just came out to my first sibling. My dog died. I was about to start my new semester, and she was moving out that weekend. She was moving out, She was moving away. And so it all happened at once.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] And then you loved her.

Jillian Orr [01:29:13] I did.

Jenn Kamp [01:29:15] It did.

Jillian Orr [01:29:17] And so she. Yeah. So all that happened. And then two days later, I got Covid. And I was. Oh, my God, I was sicker than a dog. And it put me two weeks behind in my school. And then my boss quit. And then everyone was expecting me to take this new role. It was just so much, like, so much at once. I was like, this is a lot like my identity, my school, my education, my job is shifting. Like, just all these different traumas are causing things to shift. So, yeah, we were in that position. And so anyways, spent some time apart

Jenn Kamp [01:30:03] and

Jillian Orr [01:30:06] more therapy, more. More support. More support from my mentor. And I came to this realization that I was. You know, I was talking with someone and. And I was like, I need to take this. I gotta take this to God. You know, I gotta discuss this. Cause this sucks. And so I did.

Jenn Kamp [01:30:22] I.

Jillian Orr [01:30:22] You know, I. I went and I. I did this thing where I write this letter, but then I also write what. What feelings and impressions I get back anyways through a process of my own rel. My own relationship with God, my own communication through revelation was that this was. My sexuality was a gift. And that this was okay, and it was beautiful. And I. Once I.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] Do you have the letter?

Jillian Orr [01:30:46] I do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] I guess it'd be hard to find.

Jenn Kamp [01:30:49] I know.

Jillian Orr [01:30:50] I was like, it's in a notebook. But, yeah, it's something that I.

John Dehlin [01:30:53] What were the types of things that were in the letter?

Jillian Orr [01:30:56] It was. It was that my gift. That my sexuality is a gift, and that my ability to love other people is a gift. And that this is. This is something beautiful that is. Is what is. Is something that I'm allowed to have if it's something that I want. And that was, like, so freeing and just, like, so empowering. And the moment that that happened, that shifted. That was like, another big shift. And I was like, awesome. That's cool. That's like, this is what the answer is for me. And. And God told me, and we're good. Like, it was just such a cool spiritual. Because I am a spiritual person, and I. I always felt like I had to pick. I had to either pick sexuality or I had to pick my spirituality. And at that moment, God's like, no, you don't have to pick. Like, you can be both. I was like, whoa.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] So this letter wasn't you telling God what you wanted. It was your perception of what God was communicating to you?

Jillian Orr [01:31:52] Right. So my letter to him was, this is hard and this is painful, and I don't know what to do. I don't know how to navigate this. How do I face this, Flip the page, and I breathe and I just start writing. I just start writing whatever comes.

John Dehlin [01:32:05] It's like revelation.

Jillian Orr [01:32:06] Weird, right? Is that what a priesthood blessings?

John Dehlin [01:32:08] Like, patriarchal blessing? Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:32:10] Oh, that too. All of them. Right. Wow. I could experience it now, but, yeah, that was it. It's my revelation, it's my answers, and I'm very confident behind those. And very, like, it was such an incredible spiritual experience for me that, yeah, I wrote it down, and it's like, wow, okay, God, let's do this. And then I did it the next week where I was like, so it's me again. Hi.

Jillian Orr [01:32:35] If this is okay, then what's going on with temple? What's going on with ceilings? What's going on with garments? Should I be wearing these? Let's go. Because I feel worthy. I always felt worthy. Even working in the temple, I always felt worthy. And I felt worthy taking the sacrament. Even when we were in a relationship, the moment I didn't feel worthy was when I was around people who knew she and I were in a relationship, and they saw me take the sacrament or they saw that I was wearing my garments, and that's when I didn't feel worthy. And that's how I was able to identify that shame.

John Dehlin [01:33:09] So. Oh, good.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:11] I. I just wanted to say that I think that it's beautiful in those moments where you were writing like you were asking or you were writing to God, and then you turned the page, and then you just wrote down what came to you, because that came from inside you, that came from within you without any outside influence. And I Think that those are the moments where I feel closest to God, is when I just listen to what's coming from within me instead of everything outside of me. Like, we've been taught to.

Jillian Orr [01:33:47] Right, your inner knowing.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:49] Yeah, just like your inner knowing. So anyways, I just. That was beautiful.

Jillian Orr [01:33:53] Thank you.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:53] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:33:54] Yeah. That. That process has played a crucial part in my. In my shifting, in my identifying, in the way that I, like, decided to recognize and start seeing myself. Because this was always a demon. There was always a demon within me that I had to avoid. And then once I, like, wrote it down and took it to God, and I was like, this is my demon. I'm facing it. Then I was like, oh, my gosh, this is beautiful. And this is my gift. I thought it was my demon this whole time. That, like, was a crux that was on my back. But I was like, no, this is my gift and I can live this and I can be happy.

Jillian Orr [01:34:28] Like, it just shifted everything. And so then this process again, where I went back again, I was like, hey, how does. How does temple fit into this? How does garments. How does. How does all of that fit? And so I wrote. I was asking these questions. I flipped my page, and, like, I'm either in the mountains or I'm in my closet. It's one of those two. Either in the mountains, in my closet.

John Dehlin [01:34:47] I have this literally in your closet.

Jillian Orr [01:34:49] Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:34:50] Okay.

Jillian Orr [01:34:50] Wow. How ironic is that? But that's where the least distractions, you know? But, like, the mountains are usually my go to. I've got a special spot that I go and I can. I can oversee the valley. So it's this process again. I wrote down, what about this? And then I flip the page and I just start writing what comes to me and what I feel is right. And I came to this realization that God was like, I make covenants with you, and you and I make agreements. And you and I, you and I can make this, make your life plans, and what is right and what is wrong.

Jillian Orr [01:35:23] And you and I do that together. And you do not need an entity between us to tell it, to tell you what those covenants are. There does not need to be an entity to tell you what is right and what is wrong. That was another huge shift. And I was like, okay, let's do this.

John Dehlin [01:35:45] So my current brain and I think Jen's brain are just like, right, Jen? Like, yes, yeah, Jen's doing the hard sign. But my Mormon brain is like, no, that's not how it works. Like, my Mormon brain is like, it sounds like Jillian's being deceived by the adversary. Because if you receive revelation, that's counter to the revelation of the brethren, that's counter to the scriptures or the way we interpret them, that's counter to the proclamation on the family. Well, that's got to be deception. That's got to be the adversary fooling you into self justification.

Jillian Orr [01:36:29] Probably. I definitely have gotten that, but not.

John Dehlin [01:36:31] What do you mean you've gotten that?

Jillian Orr [01:36:33] Just little things here and there where people are like, you're deceived. I'll get to that. Because that's actually okay.

John Dehlin [01:36:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:36:39] That's been coming more recent, but.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] Okay, but, but, but, but all of me affirmingly say, wow, you're a faithful, active Mormon at this point, starting to date another woman, and you receive revelation from God, which is, by the way, when we. Again, we surveyed 1600 LGBTQ Mormons, something between 40 and 50%, as I remember it, received spiritual affirmation affirming their LGBTQ identity. So that's that. So more often than not, if an LGBTQ Mormon prays to God, they get a spiritual witness that God's okay with their sexuality.

Jillian Orr [01:37:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:16] So, like, that's consistent with the research. That's beautiful, and I love it. Oftentimes that's what saves people's lives, is when they feel God's affirmation of who they are. But I'm just, like, I'm just wanting to rejoice my current self. Like, I love that you're a faithful Mormon, that you receive that empowering revelation from God and that you, what, keep wearing your garments and you keep serving in the temple and you stay active in the church while you're dating a woman. Yeah, that's some empowerment, some spiritual empowerment.

Jillian Orr [01:37:49] It was a shift. Yeah, it was just. And that's the thing is, like, I just went with the next thing that I knew that was true, and then I followed it, and then the next thing. And then I followed it, and that's how it just, like, it just slowly shifted for me is I. Like, when I knew something was right, I just did it. I followed it. Right. Because that's. That's how I always was. But before, I was told what was right, and now I'm asking and I'm. I'm feeling what is right.

Jillian Orr [01:38:16] And so there's. There's that shifting of. And that's why I was grateful. Like, I am grateful for my religious upbringing, because it did. It did. You know, I was able to learn how to connect with God in a way in environments that yes, There has been some, like, damage and some things that I have to reprogram, but overall, I learned and I knew that I had a relationship with God and that the church couldn't take that away from me and that my revelation is not attributed to the church, but that is mine, and no one can take that.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] I mean, I love that.

Jillian Orr [01:38:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] Inspired.

Jillian Orr [01:38:48] What's been cool is even when I. Even when I had that. That revelation, that was, that was. It's controversial to what the church teaches. I. When I came out to my parents, I, I. I told my mom, like, I was explaining my experience because my mother has always been so supportive of me. Like, she's so loving. And I told her my spiritual experience, and she was like, that's great. And I was like, but what if it's against what the church teaches? She's like, I trust you, and I trust that you get answers from God. And so I was like, awesome. That's good. Like, it was the coolest experience that, like, my, My mom trusts me

Jenn Kamp [01:39:25] and,

Jillian Orr [01:39:25] and she, like, they've loved me no matter what. Right. And they still choose. They still choose to stay in the church. And that's fine with me because I felt still loved and supported in what I'm doing. I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:39:38] Way to go. Jillian's mom and dad. Thumbs up for me.

Jillian Orr [01:39:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:46] Okay. So, like, are you. Were you at this point openly dating your girlfriend? You know, with your parents? Were you introducing your parents to your girlfriend?

Jillian Orr [01:39:59] Like, yeah, that was part of the coming out. It was like, hi, it's. This is who I am, and this is what we are. So they're like, oh, well, at least we like her.

Jenn Kamp [01:40:09] Right.

Jillian Orr [01:40:09] So it was. It was an easy transition because they, they already liked her. And so, yeah, the.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] How long ago is this coming out to your parents? Like, a couple years.

Jillian Orr [01:40:21] Okay, A couple years, give or take, in that range. So we were in this position. Then we're like, all right, so here we are. We're still at byu, and now what do we do? How do we navigate this? And so, you know, I had. I had issues with different roommates that I had to take to court that were very aggressive and threatening, that I had fear that if they knew I would be turned in that were actually BYU students. And I had different people and different. Just different people that I knew could potentially turn us in. There was a lot of fear there.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] So let's talk about. For those. Just talk briefly about what the honor code is and how you experienced your understanding of the honor code and what that might mean for you as a BYU student. And then also there's the changes to the BYU honor code that would have happened while you were there. So what do you want to talk about? All that? BYU honor code? What do you want to say about that?

Jillian Orr [01:41:12] The honor code, when they did that shifting and changing, that was before I. I was identifying the way that I identified.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:19] Okay.

Jillian Orr [01:41:19] And so I just saw that there was a lot of excitement, and then there was a lot of whiplash with them retracting things, changing their minds. So all of that. That. Personally, I don't have a story that connected me to that. I just saw people excited and then disappointed. But for me, the honor code is. You know, the. The rules are, is that you can identify as being homosexual, but you are not allowed to be in a homosexual relationship. You're not allowed to act on those feelings. And I actually have a close friend at BYU who, in his freshman year was falsely accused of acting on those feelings, was taken into the honor code, questioned and interrogated.

Jillian Orr [01:41:57] And he was traumatized from that, and he wasn't even doing anything at the time. But later on, we had these conversations, and we were kind of like a support for each other later on in our last two semesters. But you are not allowed to be in a relationship or your education, your degree is at jeopardy.

Jillian Orr [01:42:14] And so I understood that, and I knew it, which is so interesting, because in the church, you can be in a relationship and they won't kick you out, but they will at byu. So there's kind of a distance there.

Jillian Orr [01:42:25] But, yeah, we knew we were in a relationship. And I was like, all right, well, we gotta navigate this and just keep it under wraps until I. I'm done. And so it was always. Always was like, until we're finished. Until we're finished. And so my family knew. My family knew about us, but nobody else did my work didn't. I. You know, people in our circles didn't. So we just had to keep.

John Dehlin [01:42:45] You're just close friends to your friends.

Jillian Orr [01:42:47] Yeah, just as we always have been. And so, yeah, just good friends.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] What's that like, having to hide that? Number one, having to hide it from everyone. And number two, fearing that if you're found out, it could jeopardize your education.

Jillian Orr [01:43:05] It was. It was frustrating and terrifying at the same time. It was really frustrating because I want to live authentically. I want to be real. Like, that's how I've always been is when I know something, I want to live it. When I know something, I want to speak to it. I want to empower other people to do the same. And so when you're in this position where you can't, when you're trapped, it's, it's suffocating and it's painful and it, it affects your relationship too, because you don't feel that you can be authentic in all aspects of your life.

Jillian Orr [01:43:36] And so that's hard. But it was also scary because it was like, I'm not jeopardizing. I'm not jeopardizing my degree. I've worked so hard for it, like to pay for it out of pocket to do it full time while I did a full time job. I never even got a summer break. I did it all the way through summer, sometimes taking 18 credits in a summer. Like, I worked so hard that I was not going to jeopardize it in the middle of it. And so, yeah, we, we knew that we needed to get to the end, get to the graduation.

Jenn Kamp [01:44:05] Is it, is it true that even now because you don't have your actual diploma in hand, that they could not give it to you for speaking out?

Jillian Orr [01:44:15] I received my diploma in January. Oh, they mailed it to me. So when they mailed it to me, I came out publicly. I actually had a. I had a video that I posted on my social media that said that now that I have my degree, I was not able to come out like I was before. But I, I'm doing this because I want to live authentically and I am bisexual and am in a relationship with a woman. And I love it and I'm happy and I'm proud of it. And that's why I was like, because I'm tired of, I'm so, so tired of being suffocatingly hidden that I was like, I just want everyone to be on the same page.

Jillian Orr [01:44:48] This is where I'm at and it's normal, it's great, and we're good. And I'm tired of having all these conversations and I wanted everyone to just know. So I did. I came out in January. Once I had that diploma physically in my hands.

John Dehlin [01:44:59] Smart. And just to really put a fine point on it, if you had been caught prior to getting your diploma, found out, turned in by the honor code office, what consequences could you have faced and how severe to your personal life, to your finances, to your education, could it have been? Worst case scenario?

Jillian Orr [01:45:20] Worst case scenario, the scholarships I had received, they would have asked for those to be paid back, that my degrees and transcripts would have been frozen and removed, that I would not have been able to continue my grad, My degree there that I would have lost many, many credits that do not transfer anywhere else and that they would not have let me graduate, that would have had to start over at a new school.

John Dehlin [01:45:43] And that would have set you back. How much time and how much money?

Jillian Orr [01:45:46] Oh, man, at least three years worth. And I don't even know how much money over.

John Dehlin [01:45:55] Tens. Tens of thousands.

Jillian Orr [01:45:56] Yeah, I was going to say 10 to 20 grand at least. So, yeah, big, big sacrifice.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:46:02] Big risk.

John Dehlin [01:46:02] Yeah. Yeah. Really quickly, I have to ask this. There. There are aspects of LGBTQ more faithful LGBTQ Mormon culture at BYU is a voice. Is. That's a off campus support group for LGBTQ BYU students. I'm trying to remember their. It's not voice, but there's a.

Jillian Orr [01:46:27] There's a few.

John Dehlin [01:46:28] Do you know. Were you. Did you know about them? Did you, did you attend those? Were you a part of it at all? I'm trying to remember what their names are. Someone's gonna type it in the comments in just a second. We'll wait for that. But also there's Ben Shilati and Charlie Bird, which one was, I guess is an honor code officer who's gay and out. And then Charlie Bird was like cosmo and out in gay usga. Thank you, Gerardo. So you, you had never attended USGA or didn't know anything about it?

Jillian Orr [01:46:58] I didn't even know about those, those other students or those people until like way later on when I identified, like way at the end of my graduation. But no, I was never part of any groups there.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Okay, so you didn't learn about Charlie Bird or Benchilati until like the past few months, you're saying? Yeah, so they weren't even, you weren't even aware of them.

Jillian Orr [01:47:16] But I also wasn't in the BYU culture. My, like, my world was in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [01:47:20] Okay. Okay.

Jillian Orr [01:47:22] Because even everything was online, so I wasn't even like talking to students. I was literally there just for my education.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] What about all the campus protests? The rainbow stuff, the lighting up, the why, you know, were you the. Just all the ways the church has tried to crack down at BYU on LGBT affirming protests, the coloring the sidewalk with chalk. Were you there for any of that? And if so, did you have thoughts or feelings about that?

Jillian Orr [01:47:47] Yeah, I, I always had thoughts and feelings, but I was like, it was. I felt like a, a chained up dog. I was like, I want to fight. I want to get in there. I want to be there. I want to be on the Y I want to jump over that fence. I want to be there. I want to chalk. Like, I wanted to do it, but I was like, I can't, I can't. I can't. Like, I can't do it because then if they connect me to that, they'll connect us. And then I'm like, I couldn't chance it. I couldn't chance it because I was so close.

Jillian Orr [01:48:11] But it just felt like. Like, we talked about it with my siblings, and I talked about it with, like, my girlfriend, and we're just like, can you believe this? This is crazy. This is exciting. I can't believe that happened. And, like, I. We have friends that are so involved in that, and we're just like, I just felt like a chain dog. I was like, want to do something? And I can't. So it was cool to see. It was inspiring. It was. You know, I loved seeing it, but I just felt like I couldn't even participate.

Grief, Faith Crisis, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:48:36] Okay. And then. This is a multi part question, but I'm hoping you can cover all these things. It's a very common Mormon experience to hear LGBT people disparaged in some way in a church service or in general conference or whatever. Whether it's gays or the side of the times, they're, you know, they're examples of wickedness. So, like, anti LGBTQ rhetoric in. On Sundays at church or in general conference. So there's dealing with that knowing that you're a closeted LGBTQ Mormon. So homophobia. Did you. And then there's just kind of trying to, like, square your testimony, your Mormon testimony, not your testimony of God or Jesus, but, like, of. Are the brethren still inspired? Is the proclamation on the family inspired? Do the brethren have this wrong? And if so, do I still believe in the church? And then there's freaking Holland's musket talk.

Jillian Orr [01:49:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:49:35] So cover all three of those. And if you need me to write, remind you of any of those, I. I'll jump in.

Jillian Orr [01:49:40] Okay. I think I got this, so.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] Of course you do.

Jillian Orr [01:49:44] When I. When I. Through. Through this experience of my relationship with the church was first when I started to recognize that I identified the way that I did, and then to realize that the way that I know is right to live, to, like, pursue my relationships and to live that lifestyle that they say didn't match up with the church, I was like, okay, this doesn't line up. I'm good. I'm gonna walk away from the church, and we're gonna. We're gonna be fine. I don't need to Walk away angry. I'm like, we're fine. You can do you, and I'll do me, and we'll be fine. And so that's kind of where I was at, is I was like, okay, just get to BYU and I'm good, and I'll move on, and I don't need to be affiliated with the church,

John Dehlin [01:50:21] but there's no hard feelings, so leave the church.

Jillian Orr [01:50:22] Yeah. And so I was like. That was like my first. It was like this first exodus for me, where I was like, okay, I'm done. No, thank you. Thank you for what you did, but I'm. I'm good. So, actually, when this all happened and I realized that I no longer need to wear garments, I no longer needed the covenants and the temple, I. I pulled out my temple clothes, and I pulled out all of my garments that had just been in my closet, and I looked at them, and I said, thank you for what you did for me, but I no longer need to believe in you. I threw them away.

John Dehlin [01:50:55] Was that emotional?

Jillian Orr [01:50:56] It was. It was. It was a moment of grief because

John Dehlin [01:50:59] your sister AP Or. Or whatever. Right?

Jillian Orr [01:51:01] It was.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:51:03] Yeah. So. And it was. But it was. It was a moment that I needed where I said, thank you. I can. I can appreciate it, but I no longer need this, and I no longer need to believe in you. And then I. I got rid of them.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] You threw away your. Your garments and your temple clothes after being a temple worker?

Jillian Orr [01:51:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] That's almost cinematic. Like, I. Like.

Jillian Orr [01:51:27] Yeah, it was. It was. It was a good moment for me. It was like. It was like a funeral, but, like. Like a Phoenix funeral, you know, where you just. You close it out and you're grateful for it, but you don't need it. And it needs to die, needs to go, but we're good to move on. And so it was during that that I was like, all right, that's my first. It was like my first exodus, my first leave.

John Dehlin [01:51:50] But also, like, how mature that you're saying thank you. Because so many people just go straight to rage and anger. And maybe that's because you didn't receive maybe some abuse that other people had.

Jillian Orr [01:52:02] Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] But how beautiful that you could also say, I love you, and thank you.

Jenn Kamp [01:52:08] Yeah, I agree. I love that. I think she's. I. I think you're very powerful and mature. Yeah. Yeah, she's very. And you'll be very empowering for other people. I believe in your path to be. To have the mindset to say thank you and then to kind of have that. That Grieving process for that. And then also to have a rebirth of a new. A new path and a new knowing, I think is beautiful. Yeah, I think that will be wonderful. I'm excited to see what the next step is for you.

Jillian Orr [01:52:47] Like, what happens next.

Jenn Kamp [01:52:48] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:52:50] So, yeah, that was. That was the first part of my grief and allowing myself to feel it. Allowing myself to feel that grief. Because there is. There's always a grief. There's always a grief when things change or when they shift or when things that you thought were crucial and detrimental no longer that that facade is gone and that reality shifts because it did. And so there was a heavy grief that I was like, I need to feel this. And that's okay. I can let it go, and it can. It can be felt, and I can move on to what's next and see what's next.

Jillian Orr [01:53:21] And so that's. That was my first shift. And so then. So a little bit of history about my family. I have. Out of the seven, I. One, two, three. Three. My older brother came out gay when I was in the church. Whoa. Yeah. Sorry. That was probably important to bring up earlier. And I grieved. We all grieved. It was. It was painful when we learned that. And so that my parents, you know, they shifted with that. And then I had three elder siblings who left the church. Oh, and then that was a big shift. Sorry. Those are probably important.

John Dehlin [01:53:54] He was one of them. He was one of the three.

Jillian Orr [01:53:56] Yeah. So then.

Jenn Kamp [01:53:58] Wow.

Jillian Orr [01:53:58] And then two of my sisters left, and that was another. Another level of grief for us.

John Dehlin [01:54:03] This is like the perfect Mormon family starting to unravel from a Mormon perspective.

Jillian Orr [01:54:08] And then in my last semester.

John Dehlin [01:54:10] Wait, really quick.

Jillian Orr [01:54:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:12] Did you ever say to your brother, me too, kind of thing at the time?

Jillian Orr [01:54:16] No.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] Did you want to, like.

Jillian Orr [01:54:18] No, it was because it wasn't there. I wasn't there yet. I was still in the earlier phases of denial. So I wasn't even like, okay, yeah, me too. I was like, wow, that is so bad. Because I was in that mindset of, like, of evil making it evil. Anyways, so we all grieved. And then my parents, like, my parents were very good about it. They were very loving. And, like, my family stayed together very, very well. So my other two sisters, they left the church.

Jillian Orr [01:54:40] And then right before. In my last semester of college. So fast forward my last semester of college, my brother, who was in these, who's just called to the steakhouse council and was set apart by my dad, he oversaw the young men, and he was in this prestigious position told us that he and his wife, after the Holland Musket Fire, started to look into everything. They started to do all of the history and all of the research. And so he and his wife, she. It was awesome because I actually went to brunch with her because I want to talk about it. What she said, what she did was she looked at your.

Jillian Orr [01:55:16] All the information that you guys provided here. She looked at everything the church provided. And then she looked at. What is it? The apologists, the group. And she said, I would look at a topic that all three groups were talking about. And she said when all three of them were talking about this, I then looked at myself and said, how do I feel about that topic?

Jillian Orr [01:55:37] She didn't. She didn't go about what everybody else was saying or arguing or persuading. She said, they're all acknowledging that something happened that I didn't know had happened. How do I feel about that? And then she navigated it. And so they both were doing this together as a couple. Two weeks after he was set apart as a Stake High Council member, they removed their records from the church.

John Dehlin [01:55:57] What?

Jillian Orr [01:55:58] And asked to be released. It's just this. My. My family, my siblings, we are all very similar in that we are. Are very passionate about finding truth and following it. And so that was like, so big for us. We're like, what? Like. And he is like, my brother is like the male version of me, just super ambitious, loves to public speak. We actually built a motorcycle together when I was a kid. Like, we were super close and he's about eight years older than me, but I went to brunch with her, with my, with my sister in law. And I was like, tell me, talk to me.

Jillian Orr [01:56:34] What's going on? Like, tell me what happened. Tell me your story. And so she explained all that to me, that she took this information and asked herself, how do I feel about that? And then navigated her own truth. And I was like, well, tell me what you're finding. And so she's like, well, there's this document that has all of the information about what the church has ever said about LGBTQ individuals.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] That's Kyle Ashworth's.

Jillian Orr [01:56:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:56:57] For the record document, which we will include in our show.

Jillian Orr [01:57:00] Notes. Notes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:57:00] Is that what you're talking about?

Jillian Orr [01:57:01] I hope so. I'm the worst at names. Let's hope so. But it's a. It's like almost 90 something pages. And it was. And I was like, what? She's like, yes, it's everything that was ever changed in manuals. Or scripture or over the pulpit or in the ensign or anything anywhere that has ever been talked about individuals of the members of the LGBTQ community. And I was like, please send that to me. And then she's like, also, I'm learning this.

John Dehlin [01:57:26] Oh, it's called on the record. I'm sorry.

Jillian Orr [01:57:28] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:57:28] Okay.

Jillian Orr [01:57:29] And so then she's like, I learned this about history, and she was explaining how, you know, all these different things when it comes to Joseph Smith or polygamy or why he went to jail or why this, the whatever press was burnt down, and all these things that I had limited information about and that I had just, like, just been happy with my little section of the story. And then she gave me more, and I was like, oh, you're right. I didn't know why that happened. Oh, I didn't know why that happened. And so she was sharing these things with me, and I was like, okay, I need to look into this. And this was at the very end of my college, like, my last semester,

John Dehlin [01:58:03] was this CES letter stuff.

Jillian Orr [01:58:04] Like, yeah. She also sent me the CS letters. And so she gave me all this information, and I loved her advice. And so I did. I looked at what the church was saying about it, and I looked at what you guys had shared, and I looked at this information. But that document about what the church has said about the LGBTQ community blew my mind, because everyone says, the church loves this community, and everyone says, no, we don't teach this. We don't teach that. And I'm like, this is 90 fricking pages of discrimination of. Of, like, all of the things that we say that we don't do.

Jillian Orr [01:58:36] Of exc. Of, like, excluding. Of shaming, of demon. Like, demonizing this. And so it was so cool to see that. And I was like, wow. And it blew my mind. So that's when I started to learn more, and I started to leave for a second time for a second reason.

Jillian Orr [01:58:53] And it was how women were treated in the church and how we were seen. And I started, like, that lens of. Of that lens of how women stood in the church and how they were represented and how they are seen. I started to see it, and I started to see. And someone that same month was like, you know, if women were allowed to have the priesthood, you would totally have it. And that upset me so much. I was like, why can't women have the priesthood? And she's like, oh, I don't know. And I was like, well, why not? Like, let's challenge this. Why aren't we asking this.

Jillian Orr [01:59:20] And so all these things started coming up, but that upset me where I was like, why can't I have this authority? Why can't I have that level of a connection with God? Why can't I have God's power to do his work here? Because I'm a woman? And so that's when all the questions and challenging came where I felt like I left for a second time. And it was a different emotion. It was. It was. It was more of that frustration and anger that comes with grief that people can feel and that is okay for people to feel. And then I went to lunch with someone who's like, who wanted to kind of catch up and understand where we were at.

Jillian Orr [01:59:51] And she was like, why? Why do people who leave, why are they so angry? And why do they feel like they have to push all of this on other people? And I was like, I can't speak for everyone, but that is part of the grieving process, is to be angry. But also, we're taught in the church that if you leave, it was because you weren't strong enough. We're taught that if they left, it's because they didn't read the Book of Mormon. They were deceived. And when we start realizing truths and we think that people won't believe us or trust us, we feel like we have to prove that this is why.

Jillian Orr [02:00:21] Don't you see this? Don't you see this information? Don't you understand that, like, all of this is out there? And it blew my mind that members of the church are so. Their testimony is so fragile that they will not look at anti doctrine because they're afraid that it will shatter.

Jillian Orr [02:00:40] And I. And I. I felt that for a long time that I felt that it was so fragile that we won't even look at it because it potentially could be true.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] And if I could, I. I would. I would use a slightly different word choice not to mansplain or correct you, but they won't look at factual history. Factual church history.

Jillian Orr [02:00:59] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] Because. Because even the label factual church history has been labeled anti doctrine as a technique to keep people from learning the truth about the church.

Jillian Orr [02:01:12] Yes. They won't look into anything other than what they're told to look at. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:01:19] For 43 years.

John Dehlin [02:01:20] What's that?

Jenn Kamp [02:01:21] I said that was me. For 43 years, I would not look anywhere for anything about the church except for on lds.org Absolutely. Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:01:28] You only believe what you're told to believe. And so my personality of challenging and questioning that all it got me to that point where I was like, all right, if it's true, then we need to challenge it, because we do that. We do that with everything else. Right. We do that with any other organization or any other. Any other belief or thing is, we want to hear the opposing facts because we want to make a logical decision for ourselves. We want to hear all sides except for the church, because it can't. I can't be wrong, because if it's wrong, then it means I'm deceived. Like, it's just. It's. So as a public speaker, you learn manipulation. As a public speaker, you learn tactics. As someone who loves to motivate, you learn manipulation. You see it,

John Dehlin [02:02:13] and you start to see that in the church.

Jillian Orr [02:02:14] Yeah. You start to identify that. You start to learn the. There's fear based. You start to learn there's pedestaling. You know, you start to see these things that you. If you get off the pedestal, you're. You're less than. You will suffer. You're not happy. But if you stay up here and follow us, you're better than everybody else.

John Dehlin [02:02:35] Do you mean pedestaling lgbt, faithful LGBTQ Mormons? Do you mean that?

Jillian Orr [02:02:39] Oh, no, just. Just anyone that stays active in general.

John Dehlin [02:02:42] Yeah. Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:02:43] And I can respect. And I. You know, and that's the thing, is I can respect when people want to. To be a bridge. I thought I could be a bridge. I did for a long time. I was like, this is awesome. I can be a bridge for people or I can identify this way, and I can also stay active, and I can still do this.

John Dehlin [02:02:57] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:02:58] And then just the more you look into it, the more you learn and the more facts that are there that you can't turn away from. You can't deny that you have to look at yourself and be like, what are my values and what are my morals and what do I stand by and do these line up? And if they don't, then it can't. And you can't affiliate with that. You can't affiliate with something that fights against yourself. You're betraying yourself all over again.

John Dehlin [02:03:22] Mic drop.

Jenn Kamp [02:03:23] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:03:24] I still hold space for those who want to, because I, I. Because I know that I was. I was everywhere along that line. I was the faithful, proactive, assertive missionary that thought that it was that communities would fall when they accepted LGBTQ individuals. But then I was in the middle where I identified, and I recognized it, but I wanted to be the bridge and stay active. And then I know that I'm moving over to this way, and so I. I Can hold space for everyone who wants to be anywhere on that. On that range. But I know where I am and I know where I stand.

Holland's Musket Talk and Growing Doubts

John Dehlin [02:03:59] Do you remember how you felt when Holland gave his musket talk and you're still a B. Wayu student?

Jillian Orr [02:04:05] Yeah, it was livid. I was really mad. I was really, really mad because I knew that Matt, who he mentioned at Easton, who had given his valedictorian speech and had in his. In his speech come out as being part of the queer community. I knew that he had that pre approved. And then to hear Holland, who was someone that I always respected and I always admired because of his public. Public speaking abilities and his empowerment and how he empowered change, I was so frustrated that he made him an enemy when he had permission and the church. He didn't take accountability for the church or even took accountability that the.

Jillian Orr [02:04:46] That the university itself gave permission. He instead made Matt the enemy. And that infuriated me that he had commandeered a BYU graduation when he already had permission. And so that's what frustrated with me was that I started to see more evidence of the church not taking accountability and making other people the enemy.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] Yeah, but at that point you're. You're too far into your BYU education, Right?

Jillian Orr [02:05:13] Exactly. Still still a chained up dog.

John Dehlin [02:05:20] Ouch.

Jillian Orr [02:05:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:21] Yeah. But that just probably built the pressure to. To come out in some activists, to engage in some sort of activism at some point when you feel safe to

Jillian Orr [02:05:33] do so a bit, just have a voice. I didn't even with all that happening, I just wanted to. Yeah, I just wanted to say something. So. Yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to stand up.

John Dehlin [02:05:46] Yeah. Really quickly, before we come to your decisions about graduation. When you were reading the CS letter and studying church history, separate from the on the record LGBTQ stuff, were there things about church history or church doctrine or things you learned that were really troubling for you, that also were an important part of you deconstructing your Mormon beliefs? You know, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, polygamy, you know, those are some of the normal things. What were the big ones for you?

Jillian Orr [02:06:21] Yeah, they're. Oh, man.

Jenn Kamp [02:06:22] There.

Jillian Orr [02:06:23] That's the thing is like there's so many that don't even know where to start. You know, what's interesting is I was actually taking a class on the Bible at byu and it was actually BYU that actually started discrediting the Bible for me.

John Dehlin [02:06:36] How so?

Jillian Orr [02:06:36] Because they showed how often like it. There's so much historical evidence that it has been so tweaked and changed and translated and transcribed. The amount of times the Bible has been transcribed alone to me was such a huge discreditation that it just kept changing and shifting and being changed according to however that individual felt that it needed to be translated. Or how many books were in there that didn't even like how they wrote all this stuff about Jesus after the fact. And just so much history about it that we don't even know that, that it was BYU that actually discredited a lot of it for me.

Jillian Orr [02:07:13] But then when I started again, starting, that's where the Bible started. But then I moved, you know, shifted over to the Book of Mormon and the history of Joseph Smith and all of that. There was so much there. Like I can't even accurately, I'm not going to accurately like cite these different information, but stuff about like abortions that had happened during Joseph Smith's time and whoa, maybe that's why he doesn't have any posterity. Or wait, he was in, he was actually practicing polygamy illegally and so that's why he was actually in jail in the first place. Wait, there's all these records of, you know, the 14 year old one.

Jillian Orr [02:07:44] That one straight up is like, are you kidding? How can you justify, oh, I just trust God that that's what the prophet wanted to do.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] You mean to marry a 14 year old?

Jillian Orr [02:07:52] Yes, to be sealed to marry a 14 year old. Like that is, that has nothing to do with what he claimed. Like he would have these rules that, oh, it's to support the women. It was to carry on with posterity. Well, Joseph Smith, where's your posterity? Well, what about this 14 year old? I don't think she was a single wife that needed help. Like these things that they were doing that would completely contradict his rules for what God said polygamy was for.

Jillian Orr [02:08:13] And so that one like that got me big time. It's just seeing these, these things that were shifting or the burning of the press or how why they wanted to arrest Joseph Smith and how these, you know, that it was around him marrying all these women or this, these other prophets that were marrying them on their birthdays and getting all these sealed to all these different women that they didn't need to be sealed to. You know, there's just so much that we all like in the church, you just believe are just 100% lies because the prophet doesn't talk about it and no one in the church talks about it.

Jillian Orr [02:08:47] But then when you're out you're like, wait a second, there's so much Historical evidence. There's so much historical facts. And what hurt the most was that the church says eternal families, and yet we are the biggest church that, like the. The Mormon Church is the biggest church that does not promote eternal families.

John Dehlin [02:09:04] How so?

Jillian Orr [02:09:05] That you cannot be with your eternal spouse if you are not sealed in the temple, if it is not a heterosexual relationship, and if you are not living righteously, it is that they say we believe in eternal families, but yet there are these qualifications that you cannot be in the celestial kingdom unless you are married to a heterosexual individual. Like a heterosexual relationship living this lifestyle.

Jillian Orr [02:09:29] So that got me. I was like you, there's no space for homosexuality. There's no space in. In the temp. There's no space in that. And so one of my best friends from college was like, oh, well, that's what the lower kingdoms are for. Maybe you get to be with your girlfriend. Lower kingdom, like, do you even study the doctrine that they taught? There's no space up there for people like us. Like, literally the breaking law of chastity to be in a homosexual relationship is the second worst sin next to. Next to denying the Holy Ghost. And it's. Next. It's equal to murder. Yeah, it's up there with murder.

Jillian Orr [02:10:02] I'm next to Ted Bundy, guys. So that kind of stuff is what got me. And I was like, no, I, I can't sit with that. So it's a whole new level of. Of questioning and challenging.

John Dehlin [02:10:16] Some people are like, yeah, but the Book of Mormon, I received a witness that it's true. And there's no way to explain what amazing of a book it is other than that it was given to Joseph Smith by God. How did you grapple with the Book of Mormon?

Jillian Orr [02:10:31] So learning the history and learning the. The facts of, of all of this stuff, I. You do you reflect on, like, those spiritual experience that you have had in the past, right? Of those things that you. On your mission, you're like, wait, I. I thought I felt this. And then I reflect on them and, and there were times that you feel positive and exciting emotions around the importance of. Of loving one another and how you love the person you're. You're teaching and how they're agreeing with you on something and you feel this connection. And so sometimes we attribute that to, I feel the spirit and that it's testifying that the Book of Mormon's true.

Jillian Orr [02:11:08] But to me, I'm looking back, I'm like, wow, I just felt such a connection with this person that this. They wanted to change and we cared about each other. And there were things that I shared that helped them to want to be better. And so I just started to like identify these in a different way than the ways that I, I thought that it was because, you know, it's, it's one of my, my brother in law, he explained it this way, is that if you see something on the news that's like, help this family, they're struggling, they, they need a home, they don't have any money.

Jillian Orr [02:11:38] And then you feel, I feel prompted, I feel good. And you send the money and you feel so good about it. And then you learn a week later that they were a fake and that they didn't, they weren't losing their family, they just wanted money. And you're like. But I felt the promptings and I felt the feelings. Like you feel these feelings of doing something good. You feel these feelings of wanting to help people and wanting to be involved in something greater and something to be good to improve your life. But then once you learn it's false, it doesn't mean that you didn't feel those feelings.

Jillian Orr [02:12:06] You weren't, it doesn't mean that, oh, they really were poor. It just meant that you felt compassion and you felt you wanted to help someone.

Jenn Kamp [02:12:15] I love that. I really do like having a simple way to explain that. I think that was a very simple way to explain it because that, I think that's what a lot of people transitioning from believing to not believing is going back and trying to figure out all these spiritual experiences that we feel like we've had.

Jillian Orr [02:12:37] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:12:38] And I love how you just kind of broke it down to just having a connection.

Jillian Orr [02:12:44] Yeah. Or even like an empathy. Yeah. Or feeling like, oh, but I felt the spirit when I was sealed to someone. Right. Like I, I've been there, I've been, I've helped with ceilings of important people or seen people be sealed together. But I was like, no, we're celebrating love and we're celebrating connection and loyalty and fidelity. And that's what you feel because those are virtues, those are truths. And you can feel that. And I don't need to. To connect it to these actions and what, what they're interpreting it as.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] Yeah. And I'm not going to say this is intentional on the church's part, but we're taught from a very young age any positive emotions means the church is true, basically. So the church intentionally or unintentionally co ops all positive emotion as a contextualization in our minds that it's proof that the church is true. And Any negative emotion, anger, frustration, sadness is darkness. And the opposition, when sometimes it's actually negative emotion, that's helpful and useful. But for the church, it's either positive emotion, church is true. Negative emotion, evil, run away.

Jillian Orr [02:13:54] Right. And then all positive emotions after that are connected to church.

John Dehlin [02:13:58] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:13:58] Then they own all positive emotions.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:14:01] It's like it's all inter, intertwined and it's like, oh, God hasn't told me this, the spirit hasn't told me that. And I'm like, you, what about you? What do you feel is right? What do you feel is true? Trust yourself, don't trust. Oh, God hasn't told me yet. The brethren haven't told me yet. When they tell me, then we will. It's like, no, trust yourself. Trust your feelings of what you feel is right.

John Dehlin [02:14:21] Yeah. So tying that back to the Book of Mormon, I guess you would have had some emotional experiences in connection with the Book of Mormon and that would have been the foundation of your testimony. So you're saying you would have looked at those positive experiences of the Book of Mormon and later concluded, oh well, those are just positive emotions that I experienced in the context of reading the Book of Mormon that did. Those didn't necessarily mean that the Book of Mormon was true, Is that what you're saying?

Jillian Orr [02:14:46] Yeah, yeah, I would say so. That I had, like there were good things and even then I was never like, I was never like a rock hard Book of Mormon missionary. I was a revelation missionary. I was all about connect with God. And so when the Book of Mormon wasn't, didn't started to crumble, I was like, oh, okay, cool. And read it a ton either way. So I was okay with it. Like it was, it was fine for me when that stuff started to crumble away, but for me, like my focus was always around connecting with God and getting answers.

John Dehlin [02:15:17] I guess I'll ask this really quickly. What about Jesus as savior, resurrected being? You said the Bible started to come into question a little bit. Some people, just some people, when they leave Mormonism, they throw God and Jesus out. Others are able to kind of find a way to keep God and Jesus. How was it for you?

Jillian Orr [02:15:40] Still navigating Jesus? Still navigating that one. Because yeah, there's things that are coming that I'm still learning and, and reading and studying and, and figuring out, questioning, you know, and I've, I've given myself permission to allow it to be true and to allow it to be false. And so I'm just moving forward with being open with, like, do I continue what I believe in, what I love. And is this still true for me? Still navigating that one.

John Dehlin [02:16:05] Okay. All right. Well, let's shift now to your decision. You've got your diploma. I mean, there may be other parts of your story you want to tell, but, like, okay, so, like, you get your diploma in January, February of this year, and then you're just kind of waiting to walk, which is your graduation in April.

Planning the Graduation Coming-Out Moment

Jillian Orr [02:16:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:26] 2022.

Jillian Orr [02:16:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:27] Do you want to tell us the story of how you end up showing your rainbow colors so bright?

Jillian Orr [02:16:33] I'm gonna go now. This is your. Thanks for the story.

John Dehlin [02:16:36] We're done.

Jillian Orr [02:16:38] Appreciate it. Yeah, let's do it. Leading up to, you know, we had talked. We talked in January after I got my diploma. It was my. I was talking with my little sister who's been my biggest ally, and she asked. She was like, what are you gonna. What are we gonna do? What are you gonna wear? Like, this is exciting. Like, take into consideration I've never graduated anything. This is a big deal for me. Like, I was so excited.

John Dehlin [02:17:00] You didn't walk your high school graduation.

Jillian Orr [02:17:01] No.

John Dehlin [02:17:01] Oh, okay.

Jillian Orr [02:17:03] I got a ged. Yeah. I got my act.

John Dehlin [02:17:04] Got it.

Jillian Orr [02:17:05] I went to college, so I've never graduated anything. This is huge. And I was so excited about it, you know, and they understood, like, how hard I'd worked for it. And I was. I'm also the first girl in my family to get a degree, and so. First girl in my family besides my mom, you know, to get a degree. First one at byu. And so it was important. It was significant on many different levels. And so when I was. I was so excited about my. My. My graduation. And we were talking. She's like, what do you want to wear? What are we going to do?

Jillian Orr [02:17:35] And I was like, we're renting a mechanical bowl. That's what we're doing. Which I have paid for. That's next week, which is so exciting. So I'm an adult with big kid money. But she was like, why don't you wear a rainbow dress? And I was like, that's not quite my energy. It's not my vibe. I was like, sounds like fun. She's like, what if you put a flag on the inside of your gown? I was like, oh, my gosh, that'd be crazy. She's like. And you showed it to everyone. And we were kind of laughing because she loves Cruella, right? Cruella. Where she. Like, in the movie, she's wearing this dress, and it lights on fire and it changes color.

Jillian Orr [02:18:03] And she makes a statement. Or Hunger Games, where she goes on stage, spins around, lights on fire, makes a statement, Right? And we're all about that. She just loves. She loves everything about that. And so she's like, let's do something like that. And I was like, that would be exciting. Let's. Let's think on it. So I was in January when we talked about it, and then stuff had come up.

Jillian Orr [02:18:24] My grandma passed away. I had an aunt that passed away. I got in a pretty severe car accident leading up to my graduation. And so it was the week before that. We were like, all right, we need to figure out what we're doing, because this is a big deal. And we're all exhausted. Like, I. I had totaled a car, and it was a pretty severe accident. I broke my thumb. I had lacerations all in my hand. And so leading up to it, we just hadn't given any thought.

Jillian Orr [02:18:50] And she's like, so you still want to do that? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I think I do. I really do. She's like, because my sister knows me. She knows my personality. She knows that I love to challenge things. But also she knows how painful it had been for me, and she knows how painful it is for other students.

Jillian Orr [02:19:07] And she understood that, and I understood that because I knew other students were going through. You know, we're just keep under wraps, and we just keep going through. And I was so tired of that. And it was like, it was more than just the graduation. It was like, I got out. I got out, Got out of the closet. I got out of byu. That was like. My theme was like, I got out. And so she's like, let's do it. So we ordered a flag online, and we got my gown, and I asked my older sister who sews, and I was like, hey, can you sew this in for me?

Jillian Orr [02:19:32] And she's like, let's do it. The day before, she sewed it in. And I was so nervous and anxious, and I was like, I'm doing this. I'm doing this. And so I called my sister, and I was like, hey, I have a history of, like, doing stuff. And then after it happens, I don't realize that, like, I was coming across a different way or I was doing this. That she's like, no, I think this is a powerful movement. This is like, this is like a civil rights movement, and you're protesting in a civil way. And this is. It's. It's still dignified. And I was like, okay, because I wasn't there to, like, Commandeer anything.

Jillian Orr [02:20:01] I wasn't there to run across the straight stage flipping everybody off. Right. Like, wasn't going to yell or scream. Like, I wanted to do it in a dignified way that sent a message. And so she sewed it in. And the day of, I was, like, I was so nervous and I was excited and. And I was, like, shaking. And I didn't eat breakfast. I couldn't sleep, and my sister's ranches, too. And so I got.

John Dehlin [02:20:22] Did you. Don't forget where you're about to go. Did you envision Today show, NBC, like, this becoming. Well, I mean, because, like, the Charlie Bird stuff or the Matt Easton stuff had become national news. So, I mean, I. There's a part of me that thinks, why wouldn't you think it might lead to that?

Jillian Orr [02:20:41] I never expected that.

John Dehlin [02:20:42] Okay.

Jillian Orr [02:20:43] At all. Like, I thought it would become maybe a little bit of, like, a local news. Like, maybe some students would, like. Excuse me. Some bigger influencer students would post that and be like, whoa, check this out. She did this. That's so cool. But I knew. I knew the students would feel supported, and I knew that the students would be supportive of that.

John Dehlin [02:21:02] And also, I have to wonder if you were thinking about current lgb, current and future byu, LGBTQ students.

Jillian Orr [02:21:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:21:12] What were you thinking?

Jillian Orr [02:21:12] That was my focus. That was my focus. It was individuals who feel like they had to hide or that they were at threat or that they were to be suppressed and that they could not live authentically until they got out.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] You wanted them to know what or

Jillian Orr [02:21:25] feel that I got out and that. And that I didn't have to pick between spirituality and sexuality and that they.

John Dehlin [02:21:31] Maybe they could, too, and that they could do. To give them a little hope that they could make it, too. I don't mean to insert that into your story, but.

Jillian Orr [02:21:39] No, 100%, though, was. It is that I made it out and that I could. That they could get out, but also that they didn't have to pick and that they didn't have to be hidden and unseen and that they could live this and that they could get their graduate. They could get their degree and make it out okay. So that was my goal. Didn't expect it to. To get all over the place, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:02] You're saying you were nervous? I was.

Jillian Orr [02:22:03] I was anxious and I actually. Actually got in the wrong line. So people. I don't know if anyone noticed, but it. I mean, people had asked why I was in the back of the psychology department, and they're like, you did it in the back to get this attention. I got lost. I was actually in another. I was in another line about to go in and graduate in, like, something else. I don't even know what other college. But I was, like, looking at my card, and I was talking to the other people there and looking at their card. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm in the wrong line. I had to run all the way around the Marriott center to get back in line to barely make it in. And we're, like, walking in at the end, and so.

John Dehlin [02:22:35] Oh, you. You have your card, you hand it

Jillian Orr [02:22:37] to them, has your degree, and then

John Dehlin [02:22:40] they read your name.

Jillian Orr [02:22:41] And so we're all sitting in this row, and my family, my siblings are all texting me, and we're all talking.

John Dehlin [02:22:46] And your parents don't know?

Jillian Orr [02:22:47] My parents didn't know that I was going to do that. Not even my. All my siblings knew. Just my sisters did.

John Dehlin [02:22:51] Wow. You kept it for family? I did.

Jillian Orr [02:22:53] I just kept it. Nobody knew. Like, I didn't tell anybody except my sisters. And we were talking about it, and we're like, okay, here we go. Here we go. I'm like, where we get. How's it going to happen? Like, we got. You got this, Jill, you're awesome. But when I was looking at, like, how it was going down, and they. They show the camera and the Megatron, you know, they focus on the person when they read their name. And I was like, that's when I need to do it. I need to do it right when they read my name to connect my action to my name, to make am who I am.

Jillian Orr [02:23:20] And so I was like, I'm gonna do it right then and there. So we're talking about it, and I. And my. My siblings, my brothers were watching it online because they weren't there in person, but they were able to watch it live. And they're like, oh, this is so fun. We're gonna see Jill graduate. I had no idea. And so they're watching it, and it's. You know, I'm like, at the very back, and I'm seeing the Rose Countdown, and I'm texting. I'm like, five rows left, four rows left, three rows left, two rolls left. And I was like, hey, guys, I'm gonna leave my phone here.

Jillian Orr [02:23:47] I'm about to go up, so just keep an eye out for me. So put my phone down. And we're walking down. And as we're walking down, I, like, turn and I'm, like, waving because, you know, my family's over there, and I Want to wave to him. And this kid who's in line with me, he's like, oh, you wanna. He's like, go ahead, Jill, show him. Show them what you got. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna show him. And he's like, what?

Jillian Orr [02:24:07] He's like, are you gonna do a backflip? And I was like, I'm gonna do something. I'll do something. And he later was like, what? Why didn't you tell me? But it was funny. I was like, I'll be doing something. So, yeah, I'm walking up to it and. And you just. The anxiety is so real. But I noticed that a lot of girls had their gowns unzipped, so I just unzipped mine because they, you know, they're just like, oh, yeah, as long as, you know, looks fine and so is unzipped. And so I was walking up and you get ready to hand your card to him, and he looks at it and then hands it to the individual who's going to read it.

Jillian Orr [02:24:41] And they say, a Jillian Ore. And I opened it up and I closed it. And I don't remember anything after that. It's like a deer in the headlights blackout moment. I texted my sister after. I was like, but it was perfect

John Dehlin [02:24:53] timing because it showed on the Jumbotron.

Jillian Orr [02:24:55] And so everyone's side, it was right then. It was like, Jillian Orr opened it, I smiled, I closed it, and I went. Apparently shucked the hands, got the photo, went back.

John Dehlin [02:25:02] Gasps, Were there applause?

Jillian Orr [02:25:04] I heard nothing. I heard nothing. I texted her. I was like, did I do it? I don't what happened. I was like, I passed out. Like, I have no idea what happened because it's just like, there's so much. It's that moment. And yeah, it just leads up to it. And it was exciting. Then I went back and a couple of kids, a couple of students on the back row turned around. They're like, yeah, girl, yeah. And then I sat down and it was it. And I was like, cool. I did it. That's awesome. It's kind of anticlimactic, actually.

John Dehlin [02:25:29] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:25:29] And my siblings were like, what? I did not expect that. That was awesome. How cool. And everyone's like, you did it. You did it. And so it was. It was exciting. And the people next to me were like, my friend just saw this. You did that. And this other one guy, like, he, like, looked at my rope. He's like, that's awesome. Like, it was so cool. Like, I got so much positive response from. From my peers from the other Graduates. And then, you know, that graduation ended and we went out, and they're like, the graduates get to go out first and go find your families.

Jillian Orr [02:25:55] And then we go out. And this other graduate, she came up to me and she's like, I just had to tell you. My girlfriend saw you on Life, and. And she was so proud of you, and she wanted me to tell you. Thank you. I was like, whoa. And I was like, that was it. That's why I did it. I was like, awesome. And that was it. I was like, that's all I needed. That's all the attention. That's all the validation. Like, that's all the knowledge. Is that awesome? Some other student that had to go through what I went through, her and her girlfriend saw that and felt seen, and that's all I cared about. I was like, awesome. I did it. And we were good. Went, saw my family, got lunch.

John Dehlin [02:26:34] Were your parents mad?

Jillian Orr [02:26:35] Nah. Then they were like, congrats about your graduation. Took a photo together. They were happy for me. And, you know, they brought me flowers. And.

John Dehlin [02:26:43] So your mom. Your mom and dad, they're faithful, huh?

Jillian Orr [02:26:46] They are. They didn't. Didn't say anything about it. They're just, like, super happy that I graduated. And we all went to lunch, and it was great. You know, my sisters were there and my nieces, and so it was good. No words were said, and it was good. So then we went to lunch. I was exhausted. I went home, and I just created a little post, and I. Instagram. Instagram, Yep. Just created a couple of photos, wrote a little story about, like, what I did and why I did it, just so that people would know, you know, why I did it. And I took a nap, and I woke up, and it had exploded.

Jillian Orr [02:27:16] It had gone. My sisters were trying to call me. They were texting me. And, you know, people who I like, Matt Easton, had reached out to me at that point. Charlie had reached out to me and said, hey, congrats. You know, people were like, all this.

John Dehlin [02:27:31] Charlie Bird.

Jillian Orr [02:27:31] Yeah, Charlie Bird reached out. All these students were just blowing up my phone. Like, it had been shared 500 times by the time I got up from my nap. And I was like, whoa. And so.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] On Instagram or Facebook.

Jillian Orr [02:27:43] On Instagram. Well, actually, I can't remember, but when I share it, it goes to both. So.

John Dehlin [02:27:47] Okay. Okay.

Jillian Orr [02:27:48] So I just. It just went out everywhere. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And so my sisters were like, let's go get dessert. So we all went together, me and my sisters, and we were like, Talking about, like, this is crazy. And like, oh, it's so exciting. Well, this is so cool. And then we just. It just kind of went from there.

John Dehlin [02:28:03] And where has it gone from there?

Jillian Orr [02:28:04] It's. It's gone everywhere. Everyone's like, my friend. Like, people I never haven't talked to in years. Or like, my co workers were like, so I keep seeing your face from other people. Like, people I didn't. That didn't know I was going to do that are seeing it from their friends or my roommates or everybody saw it and they're like, what? My. One of my neighbors was like, what? I didn't know that's you. I didn't know that you guys were. You guys were friends, right? I thought you were friends. It's like, nope, that's actually my girlfriend. And they're like, oh. And everyone's, like, putting things together, and everyone's starting to see it.

Jillian Orr [02:28:36] And it was just so many students were, like, so proud of me, and so many parents were like, thank you for doing that. I have trans kids. I have kids that identify this way or my cousin or this or that. And they've just been so positive.

Jillian Orr [02:28:47] And then the first day or two are positive, and then the negative stuff starts to come. And the most negative responses have been people from my mission, people who had me in their home, people who are married to bishops, people who are married to, you know, who are in the Relief Society presidencies that are messaging and saying, you're beautiful, but you're deceived, or, congrats on your graduation, but this is really painful to see since knowing you were raised in an LDS family and you're the second sister from our area to do this, and it was disappointing. I don't say, what do you mean the second.

Jillian Orr [02:29:23] I guess there were other sisters who were gay that came out that served in that area. So, like, they. Other sisters previous to me who went home from their missions and then identified as being queer. And so she was like, that's disappointing.

Jillian Orr [02:29:39] And so I was like, whoa. Like, the people who are taught that they love this community and the people who are taught that there's unconditional love apparently had conditions. So if anything, like, it didn't destroy me, it didn't shred anything. Like, I'm. I'm already set in what I am. I'm already set in what I'm doing. But it was disappointing, I would say, because I love the people from my mission. I went back every year. I loved those people, and I love.

John Dehlin [02:30:06] Went back every year. To the union or to visit in Portland. In Oregon.

Jillian Orr [02:30:10] In Oregon, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:10] Oh, wow.

Jillian Orr [02:30:11] I go back every year, like, holy. To have. Relate. Like, I have relationships with them there. I still have connections with people who are non members, who are our members, who are bishops, like, and it was just painful to see that the most negativity right off the bat came from people in my mission. And so I just left them there. Like, I didn't respond to him. I just left them. And. And the world showed them how they felt about that. And it was very. Like, everybody came to my defense. Everybody was like, just, you know, all these comments and. And conversations back and forth were pretty interesting to see. But I was. I was secured what I did and what I chose. So it's just. It's just interesting to see who's on your island and who's not.

John Dehlin [02:30:53] That's Glenn Doyle.

Jillian Orr [02:30:54] It is, yeah. And that is my dream. To be on her, to be on her podcast.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:00] She.

Jillian Orr [02:31:00] Her book Untamed changed my life, changed the way that I saw and thought and felt about sexuality and spirituality, and hers is huge. Well done for knowing that. She's like, my biggest, biggest role model.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:13] I love her too. She was one of the first books I read in my deconstruction.

Jillian Orr [02:31:17] Yes.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:18] She's just so empowering, and I love that I'm an attacker in this.

Jillian Orr [02:31:23] Please, everyone tag her.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:24] I would love.

Jillian Orr [02:31:25] Let's have everyone tag her. He's like, hey. I was like, Matt. I was like, my goal is for us to get on Glenn Doyle's podcast.

John Dehlin [02:31:31] Or Ellen.

Jillian Orr [02:31:32] Or Ellen. Ellen would be cool, too, but Glennon Doyle, just, like, she hits my heart different in a different way. Ellen's cool, too. We all stand for the same thing, you know, to be seen, to stand up, to empower, to fight against the constructions that we're raised in. But Glennon Doyle hits my heart in a different way.

John Dehlin [02:31:50] All right, Jen, let's see what we can do to help.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:52] Yeah. Like, I have a new poll with Glennon Doyle, but.

John Dehlin [02:31:55] Well, we have social media we can tag.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:57] I'm in tribe, my hardest, because I think that they need to meet. I do.

Jillian Orr [02:32:01] Oh, Glennon and Abby. I just. That I just have so much love for them because it was when I was coming out and my. My girlfriend and I were identifying. Like, we agreed to do this. We both read the book together. I was actually sitting at a fireside with our other two lesbian best friends that we actually used to work with and who were under wraps also, that they couldn't come out for their own reasons. And I'm going to let them keep that to them themselves. But they. She was telling me, you need to read this book Untamed by Glennon Doyle. And just then I got a text message from my sister, and she's like, have you read the book Untamed?

Jillian Orr [02:32:33] And I was like, no. And she's like, I just got an audible, listened to it. And then my girlfriend and I bought. After we listened to it, we bought three copies of that book so we could share it with other people and so we could read it again and highlight it. Like it was that impactful for us. And so when I'm. When I'm getting ready in the mornings, I'll actually just pull up a chapter and just listen, listen through them, because they're just.

John Dehlin [02:32:53] Yeah, it's a great book, great essays,

Jillian Orr [02:32:56] and that's where it is. It's. People are on my island or they're not.

John Dehlin [02:33:00] Yeah, I'm okay with that. Yeah. It's just. It's shines a light. It's clarifying.

Jillian Orr [02:33:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:08] To know who's on your island and who's not. And I. I'm not lgbt, but people who leave the church, you have the same experience. You find out who your real friends are. You find out who. What family of blood you want to maintain.

Jillian Orr [02:33:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:23] What family of blood is no longer really family.

Jillian Orr [02:33:26] Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:33:27] And then you find out what family of choice you want to add to your family.

Jillian Orr [02:33:30] Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:33:31] Right.

Jillian Orr [02:33:32] Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:33:33] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:33:34] Yeah. It was a good one. It was a good book. It speaks to all people, especially women, I believe.

Jillian Orr [02:33:40] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:33:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:41] We try to get Glennon to speak at Thrive, but she wanted, like, 120 grand and we couldn't.

Jenn Kamp [02:33:48] Oh, that was. It would have been worth it. I would have paid 80 for my ticket instead of 15.

John Dehlin [02:33:53] It's just risky because you have to pay that up front. So if you don't get the ticket sales, you're. You're out.

Jillian Orr [02:33:59] Oh, I get six figures.

Jenn Kamp [02:34:01] I think Clinton absolutely would have paid.

John Dehlin [02:34:03] I think Clinton. Jenny would have done it, but I wasn't comfortable. I wasn't comfortable committing them to that potential loss. Because I'm not. I don't like. I'm not like, stoked to blow people's money. You know what I mean?

Jenn Kamp [02:34:17] Exactly. Exactly. But maybe we can figure this out,

John Dehlin [02:34:20] because in the future.

Jenn Kamp [02:34:21] In the future, because I. Oh, I think that she would sell out any arena here.

John Dehlin [02:34:26] She also didn't want to. She wasn't wanting to prepare a talk. She wanted just a Q A. And honestly, I think the fact that Thrive is about being beyond religion.

Jenn Kamp [02:34:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] Not that we're against spirituality or religion, but it's. We also want to be very inclusive of secular people. People for whom religion just. Or even spirituality right now is kind of. Those thoughts are too traumatizing. I'm not sure how comfortable she was being involved or associated with kind of something that was secular friendly. Does that make sense?

Jillian Orr [02:35:00] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:35:00] But no shade on her.

Jillian Orr [02:35:01] No.

John Dehlin [02:35:02] Yeah, yeah. We're big fans. Yeah, yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:35:05] Boundaries. I respect your limits. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:08] Absolutely.

Jenn Kamp [02:35:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:35:09] I think she wanted us to fly her and Abby first class.

Jillian Orr [02:35:12] Oh, 100.

Jenn Kamp [02:35:13] Yes. Well, nothing less.

Jillian Orr [02:35:14] I would not. I would expect that she should be coming with her.

John Dehlin [02:35:18] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:35:19] And in first class. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:35:20] Yeah. Well, we're fans. Okay. So. All right. And then like. Yeah, I. In addition to like today, the Today show. And was it today's show that.

Media Attention and Public Response

Jillian Orr [02:35:30] Yeah, Today show's done a paper, NBC, People magazine,

John Dehlin [02:35:36] and somebody texted that even this has reached the uk.

Jillian Orr [02:35:39] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:40] Like, no way.

Jenn Kamp [02:35:41] Yeah, I just posted her comment. She's like, this. This is being shown in the uk. You're global. You're global, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [02:35:49] Man, you know what? And yet, at the end of the day, I still don't want to brush my teeth at night. It's like, man, is this what fame is like? Because I don't know if I love it.

John Dehlin [02:35:59] It's not. It's not the best. I'm not gonna lie.

Jenn Kamp [02:36:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:03] Just the small taste I've gotten of just some news coverage, you know, and

Jillian Orr [02:36:07] it's been cool because I have, I've talked with people because, you know, there's a lot of negativity that comes, but they're like, I've heard that there are people who will step on personally and then there's people who step on publicly. And when you do that publicly, everyone's going to tell you how much it stinks and everyone's going to tell you how much it sucks and how much you shouldn't or should or should or that all that stuff, it's like, you can stand for it privately and publicly, but when you do it, it's gonna come with a consequence. You know, I. I expected different consequences, but nonetheless, I accept all consequences, you know, because you have to.

Jillian Orr [02:36:41] I am willing to accept all consequences in doing what is right. And I expected it to be more religious based, like, hey, disciplinary council, come on up. Which I'm like, let's go. Or if it's your home is going to be taken away. I'm like, I don't think they dare. I mean, we'll see. Because I think it's a big threat on their end and with how much publicity this gets. But either way, you're still.

John Dehlin [02:37:02] You're a member of record right now.

Jillian Orr [02:37:05] Sure I am. So it's kind of weird to think

John Dehlin [02:37:10] that that's so Gen Z. You're like, let's go. I've never heard let's Go used in the context of a potential disparate counsel.

Jillian Orr [02:37:17] I just want to be a favorite. Like Matt Easton is. He's like Elder Holland's favorite graduate. And I'm like, okay, can you have two favorites now?

John Dehlin [02:37:27] Let's go.

Jillian Orr [02:37:28] Can I live rent free in your head, too?

John Dehlin [02:37:30] Let's go, Holland. Let's go.

Jillian Orr [02:37:32] But, you know, I, it's, it's a, it was a consequence I knew would come and that there would be. There's going to be a lot of backlash. And it's. Some of it is hard. Some of it is hard to face, but it's an experience and you ride the wave and you face what your choices are and you accept it. And I have.

Jenn Kamp [02:37:51] Yeah. There's that quote that Brene Brown always uses. I think it's from Theodore Roosevelt.

Jillian Orr [02:37:57] Yes.

Jenn Kamp [02:37:57] The man in the arena.

Jillian Orr [02:37:58] Yes.

Jenn Kamp [02:37:59] Like, yeah, like, you can stay back and you can, you know, it's easy

John Dehlin [02:38:04] to take pot shots.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:06] Like inside the arena.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:07] Yeah. But the man or woman who steps into the arena, you know, who gets up, who fights, who empowers, you know that they're the ones.

Jillian Orr [02:38:19] That's the one that matters.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:19] That's the one. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:21] Not the critics that throw darts from the.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:24] And another one is. What's her name? I love her so much. Oh, Elise Myers on Tick Tock and Instagram where she says, like, I received that.

Jillian Orr [02:38:34] Yes.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:34] Or I don't.

Jillian Orr [02:38:35] Or I don't receive that.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:36] I don't receive that. I actually just bought one of her T shirts and it's coming.

Jillian Orr [02:38:39] I love it.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:40] It's coming. And I can't wait. And it says, I don't receive that. Because even in like this tiny little space of being just on Mormon stories, like, if people say something or they comment something, like, I just look at the comment. I read it. I'm like, I don't receive that.

Jillian Orr [02:38:54] Yes. I love it.

Jenn Kamp [02:38:55] And I just let it go. And you know what? There's something, you know, who's in the space, who's. Who's trying not to hurt, you know, who's trying just to love.

Jillian Orr [02:39:07] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:39:07] Like, just to put out truth and love and, and let everyone find what works for Them within them themselves. Yeah. You know, that's you, Jillian. You know, that's what you're doing. You know, you're speaking love and being inclusive and setting, you know, showing people a path that's full of that. And I think that's so brave and vulnerable, and I'm just so proud of you.

Jillian Orr [02:39:38] Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Jenn Kamp [02:39:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] And you can brush your teeth or not. It's totally up to you.

Jillian Orr [02:39:45] Yeah, screw it and do it still.

BYU Honor Code, Future Plans, and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [02:39:50] All right, so we'll see. Well, I hope you'll keep us posted about if so if church disciplines, you know something. We feel very passionate. I mean, I was excommunicated, you probably know that, for doing a podcast and not shutting it down and for giving a TED talk affirming LGBT people and, you know, that sort of thing. So we. We would love to cover that if that ever happens, but I hope it doesn't, because I don't wish that on anyone. I actually recommend that people resign nowadays just because it's so much. It's not just. It's trauma for the individual, which is enough, but it's community trauma.

Jillian Orr [02:40:27] Yeah. Shakes a lot of things up.

John Dehlin [02:40:29] It's the worst.

Jillian Orr [02:40:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] Imagine how your parents will feel. Imagine how, you know, just. Even if someone doesn't believe, it's just hard to see someone go through that because it's such an inhumane, barbaric, medieval practice, especially to do it because you love somebody. You would be disciplined for loving someone. Yeah. In a committed way. Would Jesus do that?

Jillian Orr [02:40:55] Right. When he kicked people out, would he hold them back from taking sacrament? Yeah, but he hold them back from being in his group, even when he felt one had betrayed him. Like, people feel I betray them. Right. This is a. Of an act of betrayal. You get. I get a lot. A lot of kickback there. That they feel that I betray that. I knew it. You know, they always ask that. They're like, if you knew, why did you go there? Because I wasn't fortunate enough to know that I was gay. Like, I'm sorry. Like, they're like, how dare you go to a homophobic school?

Jillian Orr [02:41:24] And. And how do you be homophobic and be in the middle of it? I'm like, I'm. I wish I hadn't. Would have been nice. It would have been nice to have to avoid all that trauma and all that stuff. But I am in the career, and I am in the field of change, and that is my passion. I'm in the field of change that anybody can change. And I think that BYU can Change.

Jillian Orr [02:41:44] And I, and as long as people believe that they can change and they can let go of what people were in the past, then that allows them to change. And I'm willing to let go of what BYU has been doing and I'm willing to let them change. I'm willing to let go of what I experienced in order for those who are potentially planning to go there and experience what I could have experienced and willing to let them change.

John Dehlin [02:42:11] Beautiful. And it's kind of mind blowing that you get attacked by believers for staying at BYU after you lost your faith or after you were in a committed relationship. They're going to hate on you as a hypocrite for violating the honor code and, or staying. Yes, unworthily in their minds. And then the lgbt, you know, some, some people who are pro LGBT are going to get mad at you for being at BYU at all. It's like you always get hit from both sides.

Jillian Orr [02:42:41] Always. I get it either way.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] What do you say to the Mormons who would say, you, you should have left BYU the minute you knew you were gay or the minute you were in a relationship with another woman, you should have left. It's, it's dishonest. You were lying and deceiving.

Jillian Orr [02:42:59] I, you know, I, I keep getting those messages like crazy and that people are like, you're not special. Why did you do that? This. You should, you should have left as soon as you new. And they don't understand what it's like to combat that. You feel like you have to pick. And I, and I tell them, you don't have to pick. I shouldn't have to sacrifice my education based on my personal life. Those two should not have to be at a threat.

John Dehlin [02:43:25] But they'd say, will you sign the honor code?

Jillian Orr [02:43:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:28] You know what you're getting into? I'm not trying to defend them. I think they're wrong.

Jillian Orr [02:43:31] I agree. Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:43:33] But I'm just, you know, you sign the honor code. You know what you're doing when you sign the honor code.

Jillian Orr [02:43:37] Yeah. That I still stand for what is right and that I still, I could have left. I could have left halfway through. And there's the arguments of I lose credits. You know, there's the argument of why would I. I was so close and almost finishing out. I did what I felt was right. I did what I felt was right.

John Dehlin [02:43:51] I love that.

Jillian Orr [02:43:52] And I don't care what they. Everyone opinion and what they think I should have done.

John Dehlin [02:43:55] I love that. You don't even have to, you don't even have to justify it? No, you just say it felt right. That should be enough.

Jillian Orr [02:44:00] That's enough. Because isn't that.

Jenn Kamp [02:44:02] That is enough, right?

Jillian Orr [02:44:03] It is, yeah. I did what I felt was right and what I. The next thing that I felt was right. I followed it. When I got more information, I followed it.

John Dehlin [02:44:11] Love makes it so simple. I'm going to do that. It felt right.

Jillian Orr [02:44:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:17] Felt right. I don't accept that. That's what I'm thinking.

Jillian Orr [02:44:20] I choose not to accept.

Jenn Kamp [02:44:21] I receive that. I don't.

Jillian Orr [02:44:23] There we go. I want one of those sweaters.

Jenn Kamp [02:44:26] I'm gonna get you one. I mean, I'm gonna get you one.

Jillian Orr [02:44:28] Love that.

John Dehlin [02:44:30] All right. Beautiful. So what's next for Jillian? Or what's next? What do you want to do? What are your hopes and dreams, you know, for. For people that are looking to hire you or give you opportunities? What opportunities are you looking for?

Jillian Orr [02:44:44] I. My passion is always. My dream has been to be a public speaker. I mean, I. I did it beforehand, you know, around. Empowering individuals, working with youth, helping them accept change, you know, believing in other people and themselves to get out of the perception of what they've been raised in or to. To challenge their beliefs that they can do more and be more like. I'm all about goal setting and becoming and challenging things. And when something is scary, you run at it. You know when you get nervous. I get nervous every time I speak. You were nervous before we started our pod, before we started this.

John Dehlin [02:45:15] No, I wasn't.

Jillian Orr [02:45:16] You said it.

John Dehlin [02:45:17] I was.

Jillian Orr [02:45:18] Back me up.

John Dehlin [02:45:19] I always am. I always am. Every time. I start every time.

Jillian Orr [02:45:22] Right. Every time you speak. But the way I see it is that this adrenaline, it's kind of like a roller coaster. You get nervous before you get on it. You get on it, and you don't want to get off, and then you get off. And I want to do that again. And I believe that everybody. I believe that everybody would enjoy public speaking if they weren't afraid of what other people thought of them. Because everyone wants to share their story. Everyone wants to share their truth. And that's what I want. I want people to understand is they can do whatever they want to do, they can be whatever they want to be, and they can pursue these things that are scary, and they don't have to listen to what everybody else tells

Jenn Kamp [02:45:51] them they need to be.

Jillian Orr [02:45:52] That's my passion. My passion is to speak and present and to empower.

John Dehlin [02:45:57] Yeah. So how does that look in terms of a career? Do you know? Do you. Do you want to pursue Psychology. Like you want to just be a professional public speaker? Do you want to be an author? Do you want to write? Do you want to start a podcast?

Jenn Kamp [02:46:12] Do you want to speak at the thread event?

John Dehlin [02:46:14] Yeah. A lot of people are like, forget Glennon Doyle, let's have Jim

Jillian Orr [02:46:19] first class.

Jenn Kamp [02:46:20] Can we have them both? I want both.

Jillian Orr [02:46:21] I want both. I'll come if she comes.

John Dehlin [02:46:24] You'll be the warm up speaker for. Or maybe. No, she can.

Jillian Orr [02:46:30] Let's just do it at the same time. I, I think it'd be awesome to get my, my master's degree in organizational psychology, also known as industrial psychology. And that is the ability, that's the degree and masters of going into an organization and helping their culture or helping their, you know, their people or training or helping them work with youth in a better way, in a better manner. Because I think there's always space to learn and grow and change and shift and there's new practices that we can do and there's ways that we can challenge and improve. And I think that anybody can be a stance for improvement and anyone can be on a platform for, you know, becoming more and being better.

Jillian Orr [02:47:06] So that's what I want to do. I want to, I want to do that. I want to go to other organizations and speak and present. Like, bring me in, let me talk, let me help, let me empower, do what I can and, and leave after that. You don't need to, you don't need to do anything else. I just want to come in and share more of what my truths are.

John Dehlin [02:47:24] Love it. Well, I'm gonna say I think you should have a podcast in a YouTube channel. I'm just gonna say it.

Jillian Orr [02:47:30] Ah, we might as well start something. I just gotta figure out. I don't have this kind of fancy

John Dehlin [02:47:34] equipment, but I didn't either when I started using a microphone.

Jenn Kamp [02:47:38] Good point. Point.

John Dehlin [02:47:38] An Internet connection.

Jillian Orr [02:47:39] I think of a good name, though. What should we call it? I don't know. We'll have to think on that one. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:47:50] I'm thinking.

Jillian Orr [02:47:50] Everyone in the comments.

Jenn Kamp [02:47:52] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:47:53] Back us up. I'll buy you some donuts if I pick it.

John Dehlin [02:47:56] All right, that's good. All right, we'll wait and see what comments come in. Suggestions for Jillian's YouTube channel and podcast. I named Zelf on the shelf, so, I mean, like, you did. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:48:06] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [02:48:07] Yeah, yeah. Samantha and Tanner were at Utah State University and they were in a faith crisis support group. And I'm like, you two belong on YouTube. And they're like, but what will we call the channel? And they were like, zelf. Zelf. How about Zelf? Let's incorporate Zelf? And I'm like, zelf, on the shelf.

Jillian Orr [02:48:24] Love that. Did you get a box of donuts?

John Dehlin [02:48:28] I got squat from Tanner and Samantha. So you fetch yours.

Jillian Orr [02:48:33] Coming your way.

John Dehlin [02:48:34] All right, well, this has been. I mean, I am so inspired. I just texted my daughter Clara, and I'm like, I think you would be inspired by this interview. So I just said your interview to my daughter. I hope, Claire, you watch, but you are freaking wise and smart and inspiring.

Jillian Orr [02:48:50] Jillian, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:48:52] And I've interviewed a few people on my day. I've, you know.

Jillian Orr [02:48:55] Anyway, I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [02:48:57] Thanks for coming on.

Jillian Orr [02:48:58] Just doing the best I can, you know, doing a little bit better each day. I try. Not perfect, but I'm trying. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:49:03] All right, Any final things you want to leave us with? Any final words or what? Let me ask you this. What does it mean you say you said at the very beginning, either on or off camera, that God's important to you, that spirituality is important to you still?

Jillian Orr [02:49:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:49:18] What does that mean now? Or do you even know that?

Jillian Orr [02:49:23] You know? It means. It means that you can get your answers from God and you don't need someone else to tell you what they are. And that you can find your inner knowing, as Glennon Doyle would say, right? That inner knowing can come from you, and you can rely on yourself and you don't need to rely on everybody else to get these answers and everybody else to validate or tell you what is right or what is wrong. But that God can tell you he can connect with you, to help you navigate your life and help you navigate the questions and the challenges and the fears and the demons. Because once you face those demons, when you run at them and you face them, you learn very quickly that it is your strength and that it is a beautiful part of you and that it is something that you can embrace.

John Dehlin [02:50:06] I love it there.

Jillian Orr [02:50:11] There are.

John Dehlin [02:50:13] There are nominations coming in. Jillian. Jill spills. Jill's Corner. Finding joy with Jillian. Stand up. Up. Opening the kimono.

Jillian Orr [02:50:24] Oh, man.

Jenn Kamp [02:50:25] This island, Jillian.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] This. What is it? Wear your pride. I'm not liking any of these, but I'm glad people are trying.

Jenn Kamp [02:50:34] Life without oars.

John Dehlin [02:50:35] Stand up or stand up or let's go. Let's go with Jillian. Keep trying, everybody. Somebody said island. This island, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [02:50:48] Yeah, that's what it is.

John Dehlin [02:50:49] Jillian's island's island.

Jillian Orr [02:50:56] When I was a kid, my sister. Actually, she still calls me Gilligan. My Sister does. She calls me Gilligan's Island.

John Dehlin [02:51:02] I was like, that's it. Jillian's Island. We did it.

Jenn Kamp [02:51:05] I love it.

John Dehlin [02:51:06] We did it. We got to give a shout out to whoever.

Jillian Orr [02:51:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:09] Whoever it was that said that. Thanks to the listener. All right.

Jillian Orr [02:51:14] Oh, there is something. My sister has decided that if others want to any flag sewn inside of the robes, she has started an Instagram and she will do that.

John Dehlin [02:51:21] How do they reach out to you or your sister? Both. What's your.

Jillian Orr [02:51:25] My Instagram is Jillian Orr. Just my full name.

John Dehlin [02:51:27] J I L L I A N O R R. Yes. Okay.

Jillian Orr [02:51:31] And hers is Reppin Robes. She just created this because I created Reppin enough to look it up. Reppin Robes. Yeah. She started it after I had so much feedback that everybody was like, like, will she do this for me? I want to do this. This is so cool. And they're like, can she do this?

Jenn Kamp [02:51:48] Can.

Jillian Orr [02:51:48] Can I reach out to her? And so, yeah. Rep and robes. R E P P I N R O B E S. We'll include that

John Dehlin [02:51:55] in the show notes.

Jenn Kamp [02:51:56] Yeah, yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:51:57] And she's just like, yeah, I can do this. And other people are like, you know, maybe they don't want it to be around queer, but maybe they want, like, the Brazilian flag, you know, just however they want to identify and represent themselves and be authentic. And I was like, cool, go for it. Like, we're starting a new trend. And she, you know, we didn't go into this with that in mind, but she's like, I think I could do that. I think I could help other people do that, too. And to, like, stand for that, too. It was cool.

John Dehlin [02:52:19] Repping ropes. I mean, I imagine every time someone does something like, like lighting the Y right, then the church and BYU finds some way to shut it down.

Jillian Orr [02:52:29] I hope they create, like, the new law after me. It could be called, like, the Jill Law. The Jill Rule.

John Dehlin [02:52:33] Like, no more cameras at graduation. Like, no more jumbotron.

Jenn Kamp [02:52:38] You have to keep your gown zipped now.

John Dehlin [02:52:40] Keep your gown zipped. No more Jumbotron.

Jillian Orr [02:52:43] Look at the top of their zip.

John Dehlin [02:52:46] I mean, that's sad to think about. And what I know about the human spirit is that BYU students are going

Jillian Orr [02:52:51] to find a way just by. You would do that. Because if it was, if I did that at the U of U, nobody would have cared.

John Dehlin [02:52:56] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:52:56] I would have been like, cool. Awesome. That's normal.

Jenn Kamp [02:52:59] Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:53:00] That's why it's different. That's why there will be new rules or something different. So.

John Dehlin [02:53:04] Yeah, but, like, the Church is gonna just. They're gonna just suffer until they change. They're just. This is a loser. I'm just Mormon church. This LGBTQ thing you've got between your teeth, it's a loser, and it's gonna sink you, and you're just gonna suffer until you let this go.

Jillian Orr [02:53:20] That's the majority of the people I've known that are leaving the churches. It's all wrapped around this. It all started with Holland's talk, and it's just sinking Titanic.

John Dehlin [02:53:29] Do you feel like there's a lot of support at BYU for LGBTQ students? Amongst the students, yes.

Jillian Orr [02:53:35] Students. I. I think there's a bit of a mix, but I do think that there's more than we realize. But I just don't think that they feel that they can say anything.

John Dehlin [02:53:43] Yeah. Yeah. But people. People are leaving the church over this stuff.

Jillian Orr [02:53:48] Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:53:48] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:53:49] Majority of my friends. I would say, like, a good chunk of, like, family. That's what it started.

John Dehlin [02:53:54] What's the body count for your siblings? Out of seven, how many are still in? If you're able to say, or willing to say.

Jillian Orr [02:54:02] Five.

John Dehlin [02:54:02] Five are out.

Jillian Orr [02:54:03] Five out of seven.

John Dehlin [02:54:04] So two out of seven in the OR family have.

Jillian Orr [02:54:07] Are still hanging on, and we have incredible relationships still.

John Dehlin [02:54:10] That's so good.

Jillian Orr [02:54:11] Like, my siblings are my best friends. They're the. The best thing my mom ever gave me are my siblings.

John Dehlin [02:54:15] Do you get the sense that your parents feel, like, failures, like, or the empty chairs thing, where they're going to be in the social kingdom but not with their kids?

Jillian Orr [02:54:23] I think they're navigating it very well. That there's. I think there's grief, but there's so much love. There's so much love and so much. Like, they're. I think they're just navigating it themselves.

John Dehlin [02:54:33] That's.

Jillian Orr [02:54:34] Yeah, I think they're doing. I think they're definitely doing the best that they know how they're doing.

John Dehlin [02:54:37] Well, I love that this isn't fracturing your family or your relationship with your parents. I'm just, like. I want to, like, have your parents on.

Jenn Kamp [02:54:45] Shout out to Jillian's parents for navigating with love.

Jillian Orr [02:54:48] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:54:49] Even if they have to pause and even if they have to take their own time.

Jillian Orr [02:54:53] They do. And it's painful and it's hard, but, yeah, they do. And navigate it. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:54:57] But they're doing it with love, and I think that's amazing.

John Dehlin [02:55:00] Yeah. Like family and people over dogma, right?

Jillian Orr [02:55:03] Yeah, please. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:06] I mean, if Mormonism stands for anything, it should be families. And love over dogma. Yes, true.

Jillian Orr [02:55:11] Yes. And I felt that. I felt very fortunate. I. And I feel for those who don't have that, and I'm very lucky.

John Dehlin [02:55:18] I don't know if this person's an authority, but. But Jenny Minchi says the whole or family is incredible. So do you know who that is?

Jillian Orr [02:55:27] I definitely do.

John Dehlin [02:55:28] Yeah. You got some friends on the. On the chat.

Jillian Orr [02:55:31] That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:55:33] All right. Any final words? I mean, the. The one message I would love you to share is a message of hope to any LGBTQ Mormons, and specifically young Mormon girls or women who might have been. Who might be in the situation now that you once were in. Do you want to look at the camera and give a message of hope?

Jillian Orr [02:55:54] Yes. Yes, absolutely. And that's. Obviously, those are the people that I wanted to give a message to in the beginning, is that the sooner that you are authentic with yourself and the sooner that you embrace and face the fear and, you know, because there's so much fear of everybody else, of how they're going to think, how people will react, how your life is going to shift, because it will. And that's scary. That your normal no longer becomes normal is scary. But the sooner that you become authentic and the sooner that you become real and you face that, it does get sticky and it gets painful and it gets messy, but you will be happier and you will feel free because you are living your authentic self for you, and you're not living for everybody else anymore.

Jillian Orr [02:56:41] So the sooner you run at that, the sooner you live authentically, the freer and happier you will be with anything, with. With identity, sexuality, with religion, with boundaries, on any level. The sooner you do that, the sooner you will feel freer and happier.

John Dehlin [02:56:59] And I don't want to respond to that, but I will say there are Mormon kids out there who don't have the parents you have or the siblings you have, and they. They may not have the same family reaction that you have. Do you want to speak to them?

Jillian Orr [02:57:14] It's true. And those. And that's the thing is when I say living real and living authentically, it's taking the next step of what you feel is right and navigating that. I can't say what's right. Yeah. Or safe.

John Dehlin [02:57:26] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:57:27] I can't say that. Come out event, like, come out 100% all the way to everyone, because that may not be right for them.

John Dehlin [02:57:32] Yeah. Right, right.

Jillian Orr [02:57:33] It's do what feels right for you, what feels authentic to you, and then take the next step. Do the next right thing.

John Dehlin [02:57:40] Yeah. Beautiful. Oh, man. I got chills, Jillian. I got chills. They're multiplying. That's from Greece. I'm old. Anyway, this has been beautiful. So inspiring. Thank you. Thank you so much. And if people want to follow you and your. Your world, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [02:57:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:00] What is the Tell us one more

Jillian Orr [02:58:01] time Jillian or my full name is my Instagram and my tick tock is Jillian Oreo Cookie.

Jenn Kamp [02:58:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:58:09] Any final words? Jen, it's always so lovely to have you. Thank you for being here. Any final words?

Jenn Kamp [02:58:14] No, no, not at all. Just what I've said before, I just, I'm. I want to leave with what Jillian said. So I'm gonna let her. Let her end it. I love that.

John Dehlin [02:58:23] All right, thanks. Good, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [02:58:25] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:58:28] And thanks to all of you who joined us today on Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks to Gerardo Sumano. He's an important part of this team along with Jen, Camp Jennifer and Brooklyn and. And our board. Thanks to Matty Easton. Just shout out to him because I see him as a inspiration in this realm. Also, Kyle Ashworth. Check out Latter Gay Stories. It's a really important resource. Check out on the Record, which is a really important resource. And. And Latter Gay Stories is a really important podcast and Kyle is doing great things as well.

John Dehlin [02:59:01] And then just thanks to everyone who supports Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do this without your financial support. Thanks to people who gave super chat donations in YouTube. You can also support us through the stars feature and Facebook. But most of our support literally just comes from people. Click on the donate button and becoming a monthly donor. If you do support us, thank you. If you don't yet this is a great opportunity to help keep us going because we would. We want to provide this type of content, this type of historic content, this type of inspiring content. We want to keep providing this to Mormons, non Mormons.

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John Dehlin [03:01:03] Because we don't want to be an echo chamber. And with Jen and Gerardo and others, we want to keep Mormon stories constructive, positive. We're not about tearing down the church. We're about helping the Mormon church get healthier. But also we're about helping people live big, beautiful lives in or out of the church. So that's my plea. Anything you want to add, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [03:01:25] No, just if you can donate, do. If you can't, leave the reviews. And even just a small, tiny donation every month helps so it doesn't have to be big donation.

John Dehlin [03:01:37] Yeah. All right. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We love you guys and we look forward to seeing you again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

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