Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 877

Guest [00:00:00] We like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners. To help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community, Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 7, 2018 and we are so very excited for another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. Just wanted to kind of introduce what we're going to be talking about today. Today we have with us in the studio audience Brooke Bonham Miller and Josh Miller. And thanks for coming on today.

Meet Brooke and Josh Miller

Josh Miller [00:01:30] Yeah, yeah, thanks for having us. We're excited to be here.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:01:32] Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] And we have a really exciting and important and I think interesting story for you today. I'll give you just a little bit of background to give you kind of the high level version. Basically, Brooke and Josh, I would say Josh probably lost his faith first between the couple and that was a really hard thing. As many of you know, when one of the members in a marriage loses their faith first, that can really traumatize the marriage. So we're going to be talking about sort of what it was like for them to be in a mixed faith marriage and how difficult that was. We are also going to talk about then what led to Brooke also losing her faith and what that was like then for her and the guilt she felt and how she treated Josh during that experience is relevant. I think it's important. And then we are going to be talking about in sort of an attempt, well, their attempts to kind of explain to family and friends what was happening and the extent to which they weren't really believed or respected or supported or valued for what they went through. I think that's a really important part, this and how far, talking about how far we need to go for orthodox believing Mormons to show more love and respect and compassion and support for people who doubt and question and for there to be more resources available so that people don't feel like they're hung out to dry. So that's gonna be an important part of it. But then we're gonna really dig into a really sensitive but important part of this because of Some connections. Brooke and Josh were able to sit down and meet with Dr. Spencer Fluman. Some of you won't know that name at all. I think most of you won't know that name, but many of you will know the name of the Maxwell Institute. And just for a little bit of background, you know, the church set up ultimately an apologetic organization called farms, which, which was sort of Hugh Nibley, Daniel Peterson, Jack Welch, apologetics in the 70s and 80s. At some point, BYU decided to embrace farms more officially and created the Maxwell Institute, which became the church's sort of official apologetic arm for many, many years with Daniel Peterson at the helm. And then around 2012, Daniel Peterson was removed from the Maxwell Institute because of the way he acted, the way he treated people, the way he approached apologetics was perceived to be counter to the way BYU and the church wanted to proceed. And so for a few years, the Maxwell Institute sought a replacement for Daniel Peterson. And eventually they found Dr. Spencer Fluman, who is a historian and is deeply respected and admired by so many people, and he heads the Maxwell Institute today. It's fair to say that he's helped shepherd the Maxwell Institute in a new direction to put more of a focus on Mormon studies and Mormon scholarship and maybe less of an emphasis on apologetics. But I don't think it's widely perceived that the Maxwell Institute has stopped apologetics. And I still think Spencer and those involved with the Maxwell Institute definitely still play a role in defending the faith and in encouraging and nurturing faith. And so Brooke and Josh spent an hour and a half with Spencer and wanted to talk about, number one, what that interview did and didn't mean. I think we're going to be talking about Spencer very glowingly in this interview, because he really is, for me, and I won't speak for them, but for me, a real breath of fresh air in terms of how he's approaching questioning, doubt, disbelief, faith crises, apologetics, and encouraging of openness and candor within history. But we're going to see to what extent what he and others in the Maxwell Institute might offer to a doubter was or wasn't helpful for Josh and Brooke, and we'll talk about why. So we'll be talking about that time they had with Spencer at the Maxwell Institute, and then we'll finally talk about where they are now with the church and with their faith and kind of what they're going to do going forward. So, really quickly, is there anything you guys want to correct about that introduction?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:06:08] No, but on our part, we've, we think very Highly of Spencer, too. I know you said you think very moving forward. We. We want to, like you said, speak of him very glowingly. And we still to this day, we love Spencer. We think highly of him, and we appreciated him devoting his time to answer our questions. So moving forward.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Absolutely. Thank you for that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:06:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Did you want to add anything, Josh?

Josh Miller [00:06:40] No. I mean, it's been mentioned, but it was just an incredible experience and I hope one that others get to participate in because it was very different than what you'll typically hear from friends and family and. And I'm just excited to talk about it because it was a different view for me and it was one that was refreshing, like you mentioned, and really changed my perspective of people who stay in the church in a different light. So, overall, a positive experience.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] Excellent. Okay, so we want to thank everyone who's joining us live on Facebook Live. We do this live so that we can reach more people and so that we can have sort of an interactive dialogue and getting sort of those real time comments and also experiences from listeners just makes it a more rich discussion. We're particularly interested in anyone who has interacted with Spencer, especially as a student during his history classes at byu, but also if they've interacted with him in some of these firesides that he's going around with. I hear that he's going around with, you know, with the Gibbons and the Bushmans and others and doing firesides. We want to hear about experiences there and then overall, why you value and appreciate and are compelled by what Spencer is teaching and why you're not. And it's not in any way, again, to hurt or in any way disparage Spencer. I think, again, we're holding him up as a great example of the best thing that I think we have within the church officially in terms of supporting doubt and disbelief. But we want to have an open dialogue about how people are experiencing that attempt from the church through Spencer and to what extent it is and isn't working. So without any further ado, let's jump in. So who wants to go first in terms of talking a bit about your story?

Josh's LDS Upbringing and Early Life

Josh Miller [00:08:34] Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds great.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] You're the one who first questions. So we'll sort of start with your back.

Josh Miller [00:08:40] Yeah. I guess the question is how far do you want to go back? Maybe upbringing and just briefly.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] You're Mormon. Kind of briefly talk about your LDS upbringing and briefly if you have pioneer heritage or not, and then what the church meant to you in your high school years and even if you served a mission or not. And what the church might have meant to you when you got married.

Josh Miller [00:09:00] Yeah, for sure. And I think that's important to kind of understand my transition as a whole. But I grew up in the south, so, you know, I lived in Arkansas. Our church building was in Texas, and our stake center was in Louisiana. So we traveled quite a bit for church. Stake center was an hour and a half away. But my mom was raised lds. My dad was not. He was Baptist from Oklahoma. Early on in my life, we were not active in the church. When I say early, you know, pre seven, eight years old. But my mom started to get more active, brought my dad into discussions. I was baptized at 8, along with my dad was baptized as well. He wasn't really religious per se. I think he was baptized out of respect for my mom and the family. But from that point on, I would say that we were definitely raised in the church. We had missionaries over often. My mom and dad ended up separating when I was young, 10 years old. So we were raised pretty much by a single mom. I have two sisters and a brother. I'm the second oldest. And my sisters and my mom are very, very orthodox Mormon. They're as strict as it gets and they're as by the book as it gets. But grew up in a great home. Love the environment. Being in the South, I don't know if people can relate, but it feels like a different church than it does in Utah. I don't know if that was the culture of the south or just the fact that there were just a few of us, but it was a very different feel. It felt like a family. Everyone was very excited when there was a new face in church, just a different scenario. I had great young men's leaders.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:10:50] I had tell them how you were kind of falling away from the church and they kind of brought you back in.

Josh Miller [00:10:57] Yeah, for sure. So, you know, my mom was working all the time, so I. We were often at home alone. So when I was younger, got in a group of friends that just weren't great and we're going down a wrong road. So I had young men's leaders that reached down and kind of helped support and be a father figure to me when I was growing up, and they did bring me in a different path. So I always believed in the church wholeheartedly. When I was a kid, all the way through, I was really excited about going on a mission. I mean, I. I played football and a couple football scholarships and was just convinced that I wanted to go on a mission and anything afterwards would follow That I was doing what was right and what Heavenly Father wanted me to do. So I, instead of going on a mission or instead of going to college, I actually worked for a year after high school, three different jobs and saved up and paid for my mission. I went to the Philippines. I enjoyed my mission. I enjoyed everyone I was around. I've always been very independent by nature and entrepreneurial. So I didn't mind being away from home. I loved it. I looked at it as like a new adventure. I think being foreign helped, but yeah, I enjoyed every minute of it. I was very strict on the rules. You know, I remember one time waking up late at 9am My alarm didn't go off and feeling terrible about myself because I slept until 9. But that was, you know, that was the way I served my mission and still have friends from my mission and enjoyed it. So I grew up very much believing in the church I was all in. In fact, you know, being in the south, you hear all kinds of crazy stuff about Mormons. You know, I remember people approaching me when I was a kid in school saying, hey, you guys grow horns. Right? With a straight face. You know, I mean, people really had these crazy ideas about Mormons in the south. But, you know, so I almost was kind of predisposed to this fact that, okay, everyone has these crazy stories about Mormons, right? Like Joseph Smith was, you know, crazy and that he had all these wives and I just always dismissed it as anti Mormon. I never looked at anything online. You know, I was always obedient that way. And so, yeah, so fast forward. I came home from my mission. I. I moved to Utah about a year after being home, six months after being home and, and new Brooke. I knew Brooke from. It's just a quick funny.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:13:42] Should we, should we start on my. Where. Start with me and then we can kind of go into that.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] Yeah. And so people are saying that my audio isn't very good and so I am. I just want everyone to know I've heard your feedback and I've repositioned my microphone and I just need people to let me know if the audio is better. But Josh, real quick, I'm just curious, what scholarships, offers did you get for college? I have to know.

Josh Miller [00:14:09] Yeah, so there's a couple Division 2 schools in Arkansas. One was Henderson, one was Ouachita Baptist, and they were full rides. I had a chance to go to college and play football and I loved it. I mean, people have their passions in life and, and, you know, but that was mine. Playing sports was, was my passion. And you Know, I remember going to recruiting trips and talking to. Talking to the coaches and saying, hey, I'm going on a mission. And they're like, that's fine. Was that like two weeks long? You know, and I'm like, no, it's two years. And they're like, well, we're not holding your scholarship. Right. So for me, it was all right, well, if you're not going to hold my scholarship, then, you know, I'm going to. I'm going to press on. I know that if I do what I'm supposed to or. Right. That I'll be blessed in the long run. And that was my mindset. And that's why, you know, I walked away from it.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] So for you, that was kind of an act of faith, right?

Josh Miller [00:15:02] For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Huge act of faith. And for me, I mean, for me, it's one of my biggest regrets. Regrets is that I didn't go on and pursue that. Not that I. Not an Uncle Rico moment where I'd be in the NFL or anything, but I would, you know, I would certainly would have loved to play. It was my passion. And, you know, had that experience of playing college ball. You know, it's tough every time I watch Saturday morning football.

John Dehlin [00:15:27] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:15:28] But, yeah, for me, that was one of those things, the act of faith, where I thought that, you know, things would turn out better for the end if I went and did it.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Beautiful. All right, well, Josh, thanks for sharing a bit about your story. Brooke, let's turn the time over to you.

Brooke's Family Background and LDS Upbringing

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:15:45] So I guess I'll start a little bit with my history as far as where I come from.

Josh Miller [00:15:49] Sure.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:15:52] So my great, great, great grandpa is Lorenzo Dow Young, and he crossed the plains with Brigham Young. And my dad told me this unique story about how they went on. They were on their journey to Utah and Brigham Young told him not to bring the cow because it would be too hard and it would slow him down. Anyways, sure enough, Bridge, Brigham Young or Lorenzo decided to bring his cow. And it ended up being what fed Brigham Young all, you know, until they got to Utah. So that's my great, great great grandpa. And then we have Lydia Knight, who is my great, great, great grandma who was married. Her husband abandoned her. She had two kids. Her two kids. She lost her two kids. And then she pressed on, converted to Mormonism, met Neil Knight and Joseph Smith's first marriage that he assembled or that he. That he. Or proposed or whatever he was there was. They were his first marriage anyways, that he performed. And then. So that's my great Great, great grandma. And then she also loaned Joseph Smith his wagon, and she lived in a kind of in a cave in a hillside for a year and bailed him out with her savings when he went. When he was in jail at one point in time. So, I mean, very rich family history that I come from.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] What did those types of stories mean to you and your family growing up?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:40] Well, I mean, I think it's just. I guess to my parents point, that was their validation. This is our family heritage. This is where we come from. We have pride in that. I think they even like my grandma. She has a lot of pride in it. And I think that for me, it makes it that much harder to leave the church because that's your heritage and that's where you come from. So you're almost abandoning your heritage when and when you acknowledge the fact that this is your history.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] Yeah. And I bet. I bet you almost feel like it's royal lineage, right? Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:18:17] Yeah. As far as Mormonism is concerned. Right. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of hard, but. So I come from a family of eight. I'm the baby of eight children. My mom had eight kids in nine and a half years. My oldest sister and my only sister, she's nine and a half years older than me. And then there's six boys, and then I'm the baby. So anyways, my family is very orthodox as far as the way I was raised. It was kind of like just. You didn't question anything. You just did as you were told. We always had family night. No ifs, ands, or buts. Didn't matter if you were on a really good soccer team or football team. Family night was Monday night. We were always to church on time, front and center, never skipped a beat. I didn't try Diet Coke actually, until I was maybe about 18. So that was the first time I tried Diet Coke.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] Did it feel like sin at the time?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:19:30] I felt rebellious for sure. Yeah. And I had never watched a radar movie until I got to college. So how was that?

John Dehlin [00:19:39] What made you decide to.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:19:40] Oh, I felt so horrible.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] What was it?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:19:44] A guy?

John Dehlin [00:19:45] Well, what was the movie?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:19:46] Oh, it was Jeepers Creepers, I think, like a horror movie, which. I hate horror movies. I don't even know why I watched it in the first place. I mean, if you're gonna watch a radar movie, why don't you just watch a good one and enjoy it? But peer pressure, slow peer pressure at that point. So. Yeah, but like. And so I hadn't tried anything Caffeine was not allowed in our house. And so. But we were very close. Like we were very close family. I think we'd been through a lot of family hardships together growing up. So I think that in end is what brought us so close together. We were very open and communicative for the most part as far as a family is concerned. So I think that plays a lot into what we're going to talk about here coming up. But so. And then also I watched. So I watched my sister get married for years. I watched my brothers go on missions one after another. They all served missions. And then of course there's, you know, me and I was just a really good girl. I just remember one time I went to. I went to a dance and I know this is kind of embarrassing, but like I freak dance and I felt horrible about it and I had to go to the bishop and that was like the worst sin at that point. I just felt so horrible. And the guilt, the shame, it's typical teenager stuff. But I mean, that was like the worst thing that I'd ever done, you know, so from when I was really young.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] What makes you mention that?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:21:33] Because I think that in my frame of mind now I think about a lot of how teenagers live and there's a lot much worse that's done. And that's for me, I couldn't sleep over that. That just goes to show like how good I was a devout. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] Orthodox.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:21:51] Yeah. And I think so as soon as I could for me, as soon as I was able to read, I read my scriptures every morning and every night probably up until six months ago when I was a child, I was giddy over scriptures. I remember running downstairs showing my mom just passages and verses that got me excited and I. I depended on scriptures for my spiritual well being, to answer my questions and to guide me all throughout my life. So I think that that just goes to show how I have always been. I mean, I like anybody else, when I got to college and stuff, I did have moments where I had trials where, I mean, I did fall. Of course I wasn't perfect, but I think for the most part I've always had a very strong upbringing in the church and I kind of held true to that. And my family's been very orthodox and they've always held strong to their values and they always, usually almost majority of them got married just like the prophets at that time suggested right after a mission. So. So we were very pretty orthodox as it gets.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] We do have a couple people, family members who have written In Allie Bonham writes, love you so much, Brooke.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:23:21] Love you, too.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] I'm so proud of you. Who's that?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:23:24] So that's my cousin. She's. She's a twin. Her sister and her are like sisters to me. Okay. I think they're. I mean, they lived right down the street from my house, and every day we rode back and forth to each other's houses after school. And she's just. She's my sister.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] She says, proud of you, sister from another, mister. Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:23:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Okay, so. And then, let's see. Jeremiah Miller writes. Crazy seeing my brother and sister in law on here. Glad they're getting to share their story. Who's that?

Josh Miller [00:23:59] That's my brother, Jeremiah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Okay. Hey, Jeremiah, you guys have some family.

Josh Miller [00:24:06] Yeah. So, yeah, it's been a crazy. And we'll get into that. More about how different family members have reacted. She comes from a big family. Eight kids, so there's four in mine. But yeah, the different tones. But yeah, it's interesting. And Jeremiah's been great.

What the Church Meant to Each of Them

John Dehlin [00:24:22] Okay, so. So both of you were very orthodox kids growing up. And if you had to summarize, Josh, what did the church mean to you prior to your marriage?

Josh Miller [00:24:34] How would you summarize it meant everything. It was my code for living. It was my guidance. It was my support system. It provided people that served as my father figure. I mean, for me, it was everything. I mean, you know, it was faith first, then family, and that's the way I viewed it all the way up until a few years ago.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] And did you experience what you would have described as spiritual experiences as a. As a youth and as a young adult?

Josh Miller [00:25:08] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] And if so, what would you have. How would you have described those experiences when you experienced them?

Josh Miller [00:25:16] Yeah, that's an interesting part of my.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] We can deconstruct it later, but. But focus on what you would have experienced and just how you would have described it then.

Josh Miller [00:25:25] Yeah, for me, it was just a sense of enlightenment. It was a sense of doing what's right. It was a sense of knowing something that was eternal. It was. It was comfort for me. Those spiritual experiences were comfort for me that I was doing what my father in heaven wanted me to do and that I was working towards eternal salvation. I mean, that, you know, I felt like I was on the right track to be part of an eternal family. And all those felt like confirmation to me that I was living the right type of life.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Brooke, what did the church mean to you up until your marriage? If you had to summarize it, I

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:26:07] think that what it meant to me is I had a very strong relationship with my savior. So for me, I think in every aspect, I made my decisions that around my beliefs and what I was taught in and what I. And how I was raised. And another thing that I just kind of want to touch up on, you know, like my dad, he was definitely the patriarch. So he had. He had the say in the house. He kind of. My mom was always there as a supportive spouse. But, you know, like on Sundays, we would wake up in the morning and there was always breakfast on the table, a really nice breakfast. And then there was the aroma of pot roast in the oven. And then we would go to church on time, and we would go to all three meetings and we'd come home and then we would all sit around the dinner table as a family. And I think that, you know, my expectations for my future were really high. I dated a lot. I wasn't one of those girls to just date one guy and stick to one guy. I really played the field. And I was, I think. I mean, my parents had a great marriage, but I think from watching how hard marriages could be at one point in time, I wanted to find. I didn't want to just date one person. I wanted to find the right spouse for me. And because I had so many good examples that played into that as far as brothers and sisters were concerned, I really held that to heart and I wanted. I really wanted to please my parents, please my family, others around me. And I think it all kind of just plays into perfectionism. So it goes back to my. My mom and watching her on Sunday mornings. You know, my mom, she's just this amazing person. And I feel like they set a standard in the church, an expectation you have to live up to. And I felt like my whole life I've been kind of trying to live up to that expectation.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] So would you have. Would you have said you had had a testimony, you know, in those youth and young adult years? And if so, what would you have said that testimony was based on?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:28:40] Oh, for sure. I. I had a conviction. My testimony gave me a conviction stronger than if anybody brought up topics of the gospel that went against my beliefs. I just put my foot down and I remember my first job, one of my first jobs I worked at. Somebody brought up something about Joseph Smith, and I just shut them up so fast and I stood my ground. And there was the least degree of allowance when it came to anything anti doctor in my case. So, I mean, I always felt like I was embedded from a young age with a Testimony, because I was. I felt like I had connected with the scriptures and developed a testimony with my savior through the scriptures. So. And it kind of had just. I have built. I built a foundation on that. So. Yeah, and there's more that plays into that as far as our transition is concerned too.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] We'll talk about that later.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:29:49] Yeah.

How Brooke and Josh Met and Got Married

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Okay, so let's talk about your decision to get married if you want to. And you know, I think this is one of the most sensitive things because when a couple gets married so often, you know, sometimes they're just best friends and they get married cause they just totally love each other and they're best friends. Other times they like go on a mission. They're told to hurry up and get married. They don't have sex, you know, out of wedlock. And so they just rush and get married. And they may or may not have a really solid interpersonal foundation. And instead that's fine though, because the church is their foundation. So for you guys, what was your relationship to the church and to your relationship with each other? And either of you can talk or you can both talk.

Josh Miller [00:30:33] So I guess if you go back to where we first met. So just an interesting story. So Brooke comes from a family of eight again and I come from a family of four. I'm the second. So my sister's five years older than me and she married Brooke's brother when we were 14. So I actually came out to Utah with, with my family from Arkansas and met Brooke when my sister was dating her brother. So we were friends kind of. I mean, friends for the time that we met each other. And then I came out before my mission for a month just to hang out in Utah with some friends. And Brooke and I ended up spending a lot of time together. We were close friends. I dated her friends, which is kind of funny now that we think about it. But she would hook me up with her friends and so we kind of built just, you know, I mean, a friendship over that course.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:31:29] And he would stay. He would stay at my parents house and work for my dad too. So like we were really good friends. And I would hook him up on dates with my friends and we'd go on double dates. But I mean, just to kind of reiterate that he would stay at my house and work with my dad, but. Go on.

Josh Miller [00:31:49] Yeah, so I mean, we. And I were. I was friends with her brothers, so I would hang out with her brothers all the time. And so we were close and so we just knew each other that way. And when I came back from my mission. Six months later I moved to Utah. I was dating a girl at the time from Arkansas. She came out as well. And so we were dating for quite some time, six months or so. And Brooke was as she mentioned, like to play the field. So she was, she was dating around quite a bit. But you know, eventually the girl I was dating had to go back to Arkansas for some, for some surgeries and Brooke and I ended up just. We were in the same singles ward and so we ended up going on a few dates and it was a little weird.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:32:38] You skipped like the most important part.

Josh Miller [00:32:40] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:32:41] Sacrament meeting, remember?

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Tell, tell us.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:32:46] So we're sitting there, I think Josh's prideful sight is getting the best of him. We're sitting there in sacrament meeting and I'm sitting there and he comes in and sits down by me and he says to me, you make it awfully hard to pay attention when you look so pretty.

Josh Miller [00:33:07] You can write that down if you want. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] You're proud of saying that?

Josh Miller [00:33:12] I guess. Yeah. So that was my pickup on a

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:33:14] date later on a date that was like the barrier breaking point because for me it was really hard to date my sister in law's brother.

Josh Miller [00:33:22] Yeah, we were friends. Right. And it was kind of a weird thing. So. But maybe a little easier for me because I'm from Arkansas. I'm just joking. So we had. But you know, there was. Yeah, we started dating from there and it was weird because at the time I did live at her parents house because her brother, like you said, I would, I would, we would get up at 5am and go work with. I would work with her dad. Her dad was as a builder and so we were building homes at the time. And so you know, obviously as soon as we started dating I had to move out but. But yeah, so I moved just down the street to a different friend's home, lived in the basement.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:34:00] And also I was dating his roommate prior to him moving out to Salt Lake. I heard that he was going to move to Salt Lake and he was going to be roommates with the guy I was dating at the time. So as soon as I heard that I broke up with the guy.

Josh Miller [00:34:19] Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:34:20] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:34:20] Yeah. So we didn't date long though. We dated. We knew each other pretty well, but we dated. I guess it was three months before we got married and engaged or married. Married. So we.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Oh, so you went, you went from knowing each other to marriage in three months?

Josh Miller [00:34:37] Yeah, really fast. It's not the weeks. Right. But. But we knew each other for years

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:34:42] and, and we were good friends for years.

Josh Miller [00:34:44] Good friends for years. Okay. Yeah. So we knew each other well. We just hadn't officially dated.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:34:48] We were like best friends, really. Like, we, we even have a CD that we made together when he. Before his mission. That it was just a fun cd. Like, it wasn't like no internal lovey dovey feelings at all.

Guest [00:35:02] It was just.

Josh Miller [00:35:02] Yeah. So we knew each other really well. You know, I think we always had a crush. We just didn't want to cross the line because our siblings were married. But yeah, that's how the relationship blossomed. We did get married fast, and I absolutely think we got married fast because of religion. I mean, there's, you know, that's a standard practice. You know, everyone tells you, don't take too long. You know, you're going to open the door for problems and sin. And so we took that counsel to heart again, being pretty orthodox, right. We were like, well, we better do it. It's a council. And so we did get married quickly. In fact, funny, funny story about that is we've been dating for, I don't know, a month. And we had talked about, you know, wouldn't it be funny if we got married? And I remember her coming to me one day and her mom's like, you know, what if he hasn't proposed yet, he's not going to. And I thought, we've been dating for a month, you know, But I was planning something and that's the reason it took a bit to propose. But it was just kind of funny the way things planned out. And in a Mormon's view that, you know, a month is a long time.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:36:10] Oh, yeah, I was, I was, I was starting to wonder, is he going to pop the question or is he going to not anyways? Yeah.

Early Married Life and Church Involvement

John Dehlin [00:36:19] So talk about what, what the relationship was between you and the church when you get married. Were there implicit or explicit sort of agreements or understandings as it related to the church?

Josh Miller [00:36:33] Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. We, we were, we, we knew that we were okay, this is it forever. We talked about serving mission when we got older, we talked about.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:36:41] It kind of went even beyond that, though, because I remember talking to Josh's sister Brittany, prior to even dating, and I kind of had a reputation, like a player reputation. And I dated a lot of guys and I never really stuck with one guy. And she knew that. And so she came to me and she said, if you date my brother, I do not want you to break his heart. If you date my brother, I want you to take it serious. It's not going to be just this. It's not gonna be another game type of a thing. But I do remember when we. And obviously that for me, that was no issue. I had a crush on him. I thought about him all the time when he was on his mission. And so regardless of that happening, I would have. I mean, the outcome's. The outcome.

Guest [00:37:35] So.

Josh Miller [00:37:35] Yeah. And I mean, going back to the church component, right. It was a major part of our life. I mean, we went to every church meeting we could. We eager about callings. Like, it was very. We were very entrenched in the church at that time.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:37:49] So as far as, like, going back to my dad being the patriarch, I wanted to marry somebody who was very much the patriarch of our family, which is the standard tradition of the church. So I wanted to embed that into my marriage. And of course, prior to getting married, I sat down with Josh and I said, we don't watch Radar movies in our house. And on Sundays we don't watch TV unless, like, it's later at night we want to wind down with a movie with the family. These are. And these are the things we do. And we don't do just those type of things. And Josh agreed with me at that point. No rate at our movies. No. I think to my. At that point, I would have been even. I probably would have gone as far as to even say, no Diet Coke in the house.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] You'd repented. Yes, you had adequately repented from your. Our movie and your Diet Coke.

Josh Miller [00:38:51] I do remember that. That's funny. You think about it now, you know, I mean, we've been married for 11 years. Crazy. But think about it now, like, the frame of mind and how it changed. But, yeah, I remember we were. I wasn't allowed to have Diet Coke in the house.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:01] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:39:01] She didn't care if I drank it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:02] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:39:03] I couldn't have it in the house. Right. That's. It sounds ridiculous, but that's the way. That's the way it was.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Okay, so you guys wouldn't have had sort of this explicit conversation. You can't ever leave the church. Our marriage only lasts if you leave the church. I imagine that that's just understood.

Josh Miller [00:39:19] It was unsaid, but. Yeah, definitely.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:20] Totally unsaid.

Josh Miller [00:39:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:22] Just a mental understanding we had between each other.

Josh Miller [00:39:24] It wasn't a question. Right. I mean, we were both very staunch. In fact, that's one of the things that drew me to her was, you know, that she loved reading scriptures, which is. But, yeah, it was very much based on religion.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:38] So

John Dehlin [00:39:40] how many Years. Were you married where you were both just sort of Orthodox members and just talk to us. What was that like being married? You married in the temple, I assume, and then talk about just your orthodox married life.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:53] Okay, so we had Cohen,

John Dehlin [00:39:58] you're married in which temple?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:59] So we're married in Salt Lake Temple.

John Dehlin [00:40:01] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:40:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] How many years ago?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:40:03] 2006.

Guest [00:40:04] October.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] 11 years. So 12 years ago.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:40:06] Almost 12.

Josh Miller [00:40:06] Almost 12 in October. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:40:08] Sneaks up on you. So October 25th, 2006, we were married in the temple. We had our first son. Very traditional of, you know, LDS belief

Josh Miller [00:40:21] to just, you know, she wanted kids right away.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:40:24] Why hesitate? Just go for it.

Josh Miller [00:40:26] Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:40:27] So of course, July, a year and a half later, or. Yeah, almost a year and a half later. A little over a year and a half later, we get. We had our son Cohen, who July 24th. He was a 24th of July baby, 2008. And we were still, at that point, very strong Orthodox members. We had no doubts, no questions. We lived out in Saratoga Springs and we held callings. We went to church every Sunday. I think at this point, this is kind of our first stomp that we run into.

Josh Miller [00:41:09] Well, I think if you take one step, too, just to key off of that. I remember for date nights, we would go to the temple, right. We would do have one date night, like, every few weeks or something. And Brooke was always like, we're going to the temple. And so.

John Dehlin [00:41:25] For your date night.

Josh Miller [00:41:25] For the date night, yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:27] Yes.

Josh Miller [00:41:27] And so, yeah, you know, and we're there with the Sandy Ward or something. Well, we were there. You know, that's what we did for date nights.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:35] Yeah. And I mean, like, looking back now, I think that's just not healthy.

Josh Miller [00:41:41] That's where we were.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] Did it seem healthy at the time?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:44] Is that's what we're told to do?

Josh Miller [00:41:45] It did for a while. Yeah. I think for a while we.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] So what was it like to go to the temple for your date night as you were experiencing it?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:52] You try really hard to enjoy it. Really hard.

Josh Miller [00:41:56] Yeah, I. I can. I can never say that I enjoyed going. Like, I really didn't. Even though I believed in it. I never once was like, yay, you know, going to the temple. Some people are like that. But I was.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:42:06] Tried to be that way.

Josh Miller [00:42:07] Brooke was very much that way. And she put on, you know, her church face. But I was. I was. I hated it. Honestly, like. Well, I think at first it was fine, and then it got to a point where I'm like, I much rather be doing something else. You Know, like, many people worked crazy hours, was gone all the time. And so when I got a chance to go on a date, definitely wanted to do something different than going to the temple. But again, just being obedient, we thought that's what we should be doing. Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:42:34] So we. It was very rare that we had a date night. Um, and if we did have a date night, we were going to the temple, and I would even get up at 6am and at that point in time, the Timpanogos temple was the closest one to me. So I would drive at 6am by myself to the Timpanogos temple and do sessions early in the morning. So. And I actually even had one session in general, that really was awkward. But I was a strong believer that, you know, you get blessings from that and that's what you do to help you maintain the strength and testimony that you have and uphold that. And, you know, is in my books, that's where I wanted to uphold my strength and as a member, testimonial wise.

Josh Miller [00:43:24] Yeah, we can get into a bit later too. But the temple, too, is one of those things that I think later on played a part in my transition.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Sure. Let's go. Let's follow the chronology, though. So you were having kids, you were attending the temple for your date nights. That's pretty intense. Avoiding Diet Coke, avoiding our movies.

First Doubts and Early Faith Challenges

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:43:44] And then we have our first stump,

Josh Miller [00:43:47] which is pretty hilarious.

John Dehlin [00:43:48] How many years in?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:43:49] This is like. This is like three and a half years in.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:43:53] So I'm cleaning out the car.

Josh Miller [00:43:54] Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:43:55] And I lift up the mat to the car, and I see a ticket, a movie stub. And it says, such and such movie. I can't remember what movie it was, but it said, I looked down and it says rated R. And I'm thinking,

John Dehlin [00:44:08] do you remember the movie?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:44:09] I don't remember the movie. I so wish I could remember. In fact, if I. I wish I would have kept that.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:44:14] I think I threw it away at the time because I was so mad.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:44:18] But just thinking that. And like.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] So he had snuck a movie.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:44:22] Oh, yeah. My heart just dropped. He had snuck.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] What were you thinking, Josh?

Josh Miller [00:44:26] Seriously terrible person.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] No, what were you thinking?

Josh Miller [00:44:28] So in my. Well, in my mind. So again, this kind of goes back to the unspoken rule. Like, I felt like we never said, she says, no radar movies. I don't recall that conversation agreeing to it. But, yeah. Agreeing to it. Right. And I. And I thought. And she knew. I mean, I. I was never. I never hid the fact that. I mean, I grew up that way. Right. I watch radar movies all the time. In fact, it was not like a big thing for me. And I remember I was, in fact, I was at a golf course when she called. She called me and she's like, josh, you know, I gotta talk to you about something. I was like, oh, great. You know, and you would have thought that her tone, that I was. She found out I was doing heroin, you know, or that I was a drug dealer, the way that it came across, right? We joke about it now, but I remember thinking there are a lot of worse things in life. And if a radar movie is the worst thing I've done, then I'm doing pretty good because again, I grew up in the south and so I have a different perspective on people in general. Alright? Like, I understood the Mormon culture, but none of my friends were Mormon. Everyone I grew up around drank and smoked and they did. I mean, everyone I grew up around was not Mormon. But I met really good people, amazing people, genuine people that were Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, whatever, you know. And in some cases a lot of them were better than the people I went to church with, Mormon friends that I had. So I learned to respect for people and not judge them based on small things like that. And so for me, it was just a different point of view. Brooke and I come from very different point of views. Again, you got to remember her upbringing, which is 5am Scripture study every day, right to where mine was. I was very independent, hung around people that were not Mormons. So for me, my point of view, my worldview is very different in the fact that I didn't think radar movies were that bad, right? And. But she did, she thought it was, you know, she thought it was a grievous sin.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] Okay?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:46:25] So much so that I was losing anxiety at this point. At night, I couldn't sleep.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] What did it mean to you?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:46:32] Oh, it was horrific. It was like.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] You're not joking. You're not joking.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:46:37] I'm not joking.

Josh Miller [00:46:38] I know it was a serious deal

John Dehlin [00:46:40] at a time, our movie.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:46:41] I remember I called my brother in tears because. And it wasn't even so much the fact it was the rated R movie. Part of it was the fact that he hid it from me. That was disconcerting. But another thing, which I don't blame him one bit, in my mind frame, I would have hid it from me too. I mean, if it was, if it was something that was like cheating on your spouse, then that's a real concern. But I mean, it's like equivalency is like going and drinking Diet Coke and hiding it from your wife.

Josh Miller [00:47:13] Well, in fact, so at the time, right, I would go to movies with my brother or with friends, and it was kind of a weekly thing. On Tuesday nights or Thursday nights, we'd go watch a movie. And so from then on, for, I would say years, she would ask me every time, what's the movie and what's the rating? Every time I left the house, was there porn involved?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:47:32] Was there nudies?

Josh Miller [00:47:34] Yeah. She would look up, you know, reviews online.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:47:39] Yeah. I. So I actually wrote a three page letter of my fillings, journalized three pages on that event because I was so furious and frustrated. That just goes like, this is the things that the church does to you. Not that. I mean, but it's like you're in that conditioned and that indoctrinated that it plays that big of a role on your marriage. It causes. That's just an insight.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] It's kind of. It's kind of unnecessary stress. Right. Marriage is hard enough. Right?

Josh Miller [00:48:15] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, and if your spouse. And you trust your spouse and you're getting upset over those. I understand. Agreements are agreements, right. You guys agree to do whatever your standards are, whatever. Whatever that is. And it wasn't like I was trying to hide things from her. I think that's what made her so upset.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:48:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] So if somebody were to say, well, I was Mormon and I drank Diet Coke and we went to our movies as a family, you guys were just extreme and weird, what would you say?

Josh Miller [00:48:37] I would say totally.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:48:39] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] For Mormons, though, I mean, where were you in the bell curve?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:48:43] To be honest, I think there's a lot of people out there like us.

Josh Miller [00:48:46] I mean, I've never been as strict as Brooke. She's always been that way. She's very.

John Dehlin [00:48:51] But you were outside the mission field. You were in the mission field, right? Or you were. You were in the mission field. You were outside the mission field.

Josh Miller [00:48:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] Right.

Josh Miller [00:48:58] You're saying you were raised in Utah. Right, Right, right, right, right. Totally.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:49:02] Yeah.

Guest [00:49:02] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:49:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] They call it the Zion curtain, right?

Josh Miller [00:49:04] Oh, yeah. It's the. I mean, yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:49:06] So that's why to me, I say I've seen a lot of it, like, even in our ward now, I see there's some families that are that way.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:49:15] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] Yeah. Right.

Josh Miller [00:49:16] So, I mean, on the curve. Right. I mean, we're definitely. We are definitely staunch. I mean, she was more so than I was and I think. Right. It was always. It's always been that way.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:49:27] I was never. She's always Been the one trying to pull the wagon, if you will. She's always been the one that's like, we. We gotta go to church here all three hours. We have to do this. I was never like, brooke, I don't agree with what you're doing. Right. It was never that way. But that was our first kind of disagreement on what's okay and what's not.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] So how did that proceed?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:49:49] It was hard because, like I said, I wanted. When I first married him, my outlook on marriage was the husband was supposed to be the patriarch. He was supposed to be the instigator.

Guest [00:50:01] The.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:50:02] My dad was the one that woke everybody up and dragged people out of bed. Like, we literally had this thing called the water call. If we didn't get up at 5am for scripture study, he would pour water on our heads. So, I mean, it was strict in our home, but yet I was the one getting him up, and I was the one getting the kids ready. But not only to that extent. I was also upholding as far as being the wife in the home where I do have. I wanted to have, you know, breakfast out in the morning for my kids and for my husband, a nice breakfast on Sunday morning, and have my kids come down to the kitchen with church music playing in the background and having the nice aroma of the pot roast in the oven that's cooking for dinner. And just kind of like this perfect life. I wanted to provide for my family, but it was getting really hard to uphold. Hold that perfect life when you're pulling the wagon on both ends.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] True.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:51:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] Let me just pause for a quick second and thank everyone who's joining us live on Facebook. And I'm just going to ask everyone who thinks that this is an interesting or valuable story to consider liking or loving this episode on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page. And if you feel comfortable, share it live now on your feed. Because the more people that we can get to watch this, the more of a ripple effect it can have in changing hearts and minds. And we're about to get to the more serious stuff. So if you feel so inclined, if you're willing, the 300 of you who are joining us live streamed right now, please consider sharing it on your Timeline. We think that'd be great. Okay, so how did you rebound from the R movie? What came next?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:51:45] So basically, I think still, even at that point, we continued to just press forward and have faith. We didn't really have any huge questions that played into our marriage as far as or into our faith at that point in time. We had our daughter Blakely, come December 2010. We had. She was actually five days after we had her, she was put into the hospital for RSV and bronchiolitis, and she was in hospital for two weeks.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] And we've had on Mormon Stories, the guy who developed the cure for rsv. Did you know that?

Guest [00:52:24] Really?

Josh Miller [00:52:24] That's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] So historian Greg Prince, who was the first person we ever interviewed on Mormon Stories, is famous because he developed the cure for rsv.

Josh Miller [00:52:33] That's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] And you're recipients of that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:52:35] Great.

Josh Miller [00:52:35] We'll have to shake his hand because it saved your life.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:52:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] We're doing an interview of Greg Prince on St Patrick's Day 2018 here in Salt Lake City. So if you guys want to attend, you can thank him for saving your child.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:52:50] We will be there for sure. So, yeah, so that was hard. One thing that kind of comes to mind, talking about that we were in Scouts at the time, and we had some family members that came and stayed at our home, and they had actually flooded our basement at that time, too. So we have a daughter who's in the hospital. Our basement's been flooded, and now we're reconstructing our whole basement and tearing it all out. We kind of have a lot going on. I want to say at the time, there was even more going on than that. But I remember they told us to show up to a meeting at a certain place and a certain time, and

Josh Miller [00:53:31] our daughter was in the hospital.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:53:33] Our daughter was in the hospital.

Josh Miller [00:53:34] We weren't two weeks old.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:53:36] We didn't show up. We couldn't go. And I get a phone call, and someone's just tearing into me. Why weren't you at that meeting? You're not fulfilling your calling. And it kind of just brought me to tears. That was a really hard time for us. And maybe they didn't understand. I know nobody in the church is perfect, so maybe at this point in time, they didn't understand the compassion or they didn't understand what was playing into everything. But I just. I look back at that, and I'm thinking, gosh, this is a volunteer calling. I think that a lot of people in the church forget that we are doing this on a volunteer basis. This is not getting paid or. And I think that there's a lot of talk and there's a lot of social pressure that goes into being perfect and upholding your calling and just accepting things, swallowing things, sure. But, yeah, so that happened. But we're still strong. We still go. And we. At this point in time, we're Growing out of our house, it's bursting at the seams and we decide we need to pick up and move. So. So for about a year we're looking for a property to build our new house on. After a year, we find a house or we find a lot and we sell our house that we're living in and we pick up and we move to my parents basement and we're living there for the remainder of the time that it takes to build our house. Okay, Josh, do you want to talk about our friend?

Encountering Polygamy and Historical Problems

Josh Miller [00:55:25] Yeah. I had a close friend at the time that I grew up with

John Dehlin [00:55:30] that's

Josh Miller [00:55:31] still considered one of my best friends. And he went through a difficult time. He married in the church because of social pressure and married very quickly, extremely quickly. And his wife turned out, they turned out to have a tough marriage. And anyways, he. They got a divorce. He left the church. And for me at the time was like a punch in the face because this is one of my best friends. He's leaving the church. I couldn't even comprehend where he was coming from. But I knew him as a person. I knew his integrity. I knew. And that's what was even more confusing, right? It's much easier if someone leaves the church and you're like, oh, they're leaving the church, because whatever, right? They're, um. And. But it wasn't, it was, you know, hey, I don't believe in this stuff anymore. He was an elders quorum teacher. He's like, I can't teach this stuff anymore. And for me, that was the first experience I had with someone close to me that left the church. And it was, at the time, it was like I remember crying over it. I remember thinking, you know, cried over a friend. Over a friend. A very, you know, I considered him, I mean, a very close friend, almost to the tune of a brother, you know, I mean, he and I seen

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:56:48] Josh cry like a total of four times throughout our whole marriage. And this is one of them.

Josh Miller [00:56:52] I'm not a big emotional guy, you know, and so it just. It just rocked me to the core because this is someone. We spent our childhood together in Arkansas. He lives out here now. Well did at the time. And so for me, that was my first kind of wake up moment that, you know, I don't know what's going on at that point. I'd never looked at anything considered, you know, quote unquote, anti Mormon literature. I'd never even questioned the church. It didn't mean I didn't like going all the time, but I didn't Ever. I never questioned it. And it was, you know, at that point, a few. I would say about a year later, six months to a year later, we had moved into our new home in South Jordan, where we live now. And I remember sitting where it all started for me. I was sitting in an elders quorum class, and someone mentioned that Oliver Cowdery had left the church. And I was like. It, like, just kind of broke out of my elders quorum days, you know, and thought, wait, what? And these were maybe some people in Utah just. Or people in general know a lot of some of these basic things. Like, Emma didn't continue on with Joseph or continue on with Brigham after Joseph died. I didn't know any of these things. And so for me, I spent the rest of the elders quorum meeting on Google, researching Oliver Cowdery and the witnesses. And this stuff just blew my mind. I'm like, how would Oliver Cowdery leave? He was right there in the thick of it, you know, and he was a witness and he saw Joseph Smith. And I don't know about anybody else, but if I had an angel come to me.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:58:33] He saw an angel. You mean he said he saw Joseph

Josh Miller [00:58:36] Smith in the translation process.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:58:38] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Josh Miller [00:58:39] And if I saw an angel, there's no way. I would like to say there's no way I'm leaving that religion. But I just found out that kind of. That's where the research began for me was, you know, I think once I started researching it, then I. Even at that time, I thought, wow, this is really concerning. I didn't bring it up to Breck at the time, and this was probably four years ago when this happened. And I thought, you know, you know what? I don't understand everything. I don't have to understand everything. I was still in the mind frame of, we'll learn things in the next life. Right. That's where I was. And I'm like, church is great. I love church. I'm going to continue to go to church and not think too much of it. And so I would have periodical questions like that. This started to kind of eat at me. It took years, though. I think it wasn't until the polygamy essay was. Was released.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] Is that around 2013?

Josh Miller [00:59:42] Yeah. That I thought it came out. And I'm like, now my whole life, I knew that we had polygamy in the early days. My. At that time, my concept of polygamy was people. Pioneers were crossing the plains. People, men died, women had to have families to take care of them. Some laws around land ownership that they had to be married, weird stuff like that. Right. I never really questioned it much. And it was always, hey, but we don't do it anymore. It's not necessary. At the time it was necessary, and now it's not. And I'm like, okay, that was my extent. And then when I read the essay again, staying away from. Trying to stay away from anything. Anti Mormon literature. This was released by the church. Right. So it was credible. And to learn that Joseph had multiple wives absolutely blew my mind. And that not only that, but the whole notion of that women didn't have husbands was blown away with polyandry. Like, I'm like, here are living. These women were married to living men in the church and that these weddings were behind the scenes and Emma didn't know about them, or potentially the other spouse didn't know about these spiritual marriages. And I'm a logical, pragmatic guy. I always have been. I think most people that start to question this stuff are. But I think, you know, for me, I was like, okay, none of this adds up to what I've been told my entire life about polygamy. And at that time, I remember bringing it up to Brooke. That was the first time that I think I came to Brooke and was like, brooke, I have a. I'm struggling. I have some problems with the church here. And this stuff doesn't make sense to me. Right. I've always been taught that Joseph and Emma were like, they were. They were one, they were inseparable. They loved each other. And this history did not line up with that at all.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] So, Brooke, what was that like when he brought that to you?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:01:45] I. I do remember that. I remember thinking. I remember him telling me specifically a story about on his mission, how he kind of defended that theory that, you know, that Emma left and that Oliver Cowdery left and all these things that somebody. That when he was going door to door, somebody confronted him with these issues and he was like, no, no, no, this didn't happen. And you're fed lies. And he actually even got into an argument with the person and he defended it, so much so that it got argumentative at that point. And I remember sensing some frustration in his tone because he's finding out now that he was wrong. Here he is paying to go serve a mission where proselyting door to door, and he doesn't even know the true doctrine of the church.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] Or history.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:02:48] Or history. Yeah. Somebody is confronting him with the truths when he's supposed to be bringing them the truth.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] Did the polygamy itself bother you, though? The stuff from the essay at the time?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:02] Yeah, I mean, everything kind of bothers me. But, you know, we're taught to just brush it aside and just keep having faith. Everyone has their shelf, right? It went on my shelf. My shelf was very light at this point. This was like issue number two. Now you talk to me and I have issue number 10, 21.

John Dehlin [01:03:26] Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:26] And it keeps growing, you know, but at this point, this is issue number two.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] Okay. All right. So how did it proceed?

Josh Miller [01:03:34] Yeah. So then again, for me too, I mean, you know, I guess if you want to use the shelf analogy, mine was getting pretty heavy and I still though I was like, you know what? That's fine. I never once thought at that time that, you know, the church isn't true. That never even. That thought never even crossed my mind once. It was never even a possibility. So for me, it was just like, these are confusing things. I don't understand them. My way to figure this out is to search, ponder and pray. Right? So I'm going to fast about it. I'm going to keep reading my scriptures. And I remember having a few conversations with buddies at work about it. And they're like, yeah, you know, I don't know about all that, you know, and they would be like, I don't believe that. I'm like, dude, it's on the church website. Go read it. You know, and that was the response was. Now I don't know if that stuff's true. Where are you getting your material from? Because it was fairly new, right. Church had just released it. This is right on the church website. You can read it. And most people were just didn't want to touch it. And the news we saw the. Yeah. So then we're sitting day one day and I think we were watching KSL or something, and they mentioned that the church now has the seer Stone. Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:04:48] And we're like, we just look at each other. We're so confused.

Josh Miller [01:04:51] Yeah. We're like, the church had the seers or the. We had pictures of the seer Stone and we've been members of the church our whole life.

John Dehlin [01:04:57] And you're like, what seer stone is

Josh Miller [01:05:00] that the Urim and Thummim. Like, you know, what is it?

Guest [01:05:02] We're so confused.

Josh Miller [01:05:03] We were so lost and we were so. So then of course, you know, we pull up everything we could find on the Internet about the seer Stone. The pictures learned, in fact, you know, we learned that he found it in a well, that he was into using it to find buried treasure. He sold services for that. That he put it in a top hat.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:23] Well, you'd expect it to be some like magical stone that's maybe see through or. But it's just a rock.

Josh Miller [01:05:29] Or maybe even that he didn't find it in a well. Like he found it in a well.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:33] Yeah.

Josh Miller [01:05:34] You know, and then they're openly admitting that and.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:37] And like why are they just coming out with this now? Why didn't they come out with this years ago? Is there some. Are they.

Josh Miller [01:05:42] I remember a couple years prior to that.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] Are they what?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:46] Well, is there something that they've been hiding all this time and now social pressure has caused them to release, you know, the issue?

Josh Miller [01:05:53] Yep. Yeah. And that's what we were confused. We were like, obviously somebody was going to release this so they had to get ahead of it or it's already out and we're just not. We just don't know about it, you know. And I remember, I think it was her cousin. I think it was your cousin Jesse. I think that was like, hey, you know, used to look at. He looked in a top hat and I was like, nah, he didn't live in the top hat.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:06:14] You know.

Josh Miller [01:06:15] And I think about it now, we were laughing because, you know, you're like, you, the way your brain operates, you just dismiss anything that doesn't go with what you've been taught. You dismiss it as automatically false. Right. You don't look into it. And you know, good or bad, the church in a way is what opened the door for us. The essays open the door.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:06:37] Yeah. So then it was shortly after that where I think I started to clue in because we watched it. We watched Heaven is For Real. I don't know. I think from what we've studied, it wasn't a true story, but the storyline was just great. And this is what raised questions in my mind because I'm thinking it's about a little boy who comes down with they thought was a stomach flu. But then what? Really what they come, they find out that his appendix is about to rupture. By the time they get him into surgery, he dies and the dad goes to. What was it, a place of worship that was a church or something. And he's. The dad's a priest or. Or a pastor, I want to say. And anyways, this kid dies, he goes to heaven, but then he comes back to life or he was revived and he lives, but he lives to tell the story about how he saw his dad. While, you know, of course he, he's not Supposed to see his dad because he's not there. He's dead at this point in time in the operation room. Anyways, long story short, they have this out of body spiritual experience and it comes, it brings them closer to God. And I'm thinking, okay, but you know, you hear about this all the time in other religions. Even though it might not be a valid story, it's got a valid point. And you hear of people that have surreal experiences and one on one communication with God and revelations in different religions, or people that aren't even of any, any denomination that have, you know, these experiences, even atheists or, you know, they will have, or they'll have experiences that lead them to believe that there is a God. And there was, you know, this was something I couldn't really shake. I knew Josh had questions that we had talked to and I mean, years, a year and a half prior to this, he had come to me and he was worried about the whole polygamy thing, but I thought that maybe he had just put it on a shelf and he had just pressed forward to continue to have faith. But I remember calling him one day and he's at work and I said, you know Josh, you know how we watched that movie a month ago? And he was like, yeah. And I said, well, I've been kind of doing some research on other religious experiences and I've always been taught that nobody can have religious experiences if they don't have the spirit or if they don't have the Holy Ghost or if they're not worthy. And you're finding people of different faiths having all these religious experiences. And then I'm thinking about all these other questions that we've had to ask in the past and I'm really starting to get worried. I guess I'm coming to you because I need help. And I'm starting to recognize within myself that I need your help. I'm struggling here. And Josh said to me, I can't help you because I'm struggling myself. I'm trying to save myself. I can't help you. And that to me was a huge letdown because Josh, I always admired him because I thought he, you know, he serves a mission. He's so smart, he's a very logical thinker. He retains knowledge really well. He can answer my questions. And he, the only thing he could tell me is I'm struggling too and I can't answer your questions. And I'm, I'm worried here too.

Josh Miller [01:10:34] So just to point on the dynamic of our relationship, right? So I'm very. I'm a thinker by nature, so I'll sit and think and just ponder about stuff forever and not. Not make a comment until I really feel like I've made a conclusion. And so I think that's the way I dealt with all these issues is I didn't want to bring in issues into our marriage with my concerns or doubts. I didn't want Brooke to feel like I was doubting the church. And so I kind of just buried these things and I just continued to do research silently on my own. And Brooke is very communicative. So she. That's just the way she's been raised. That's the way her family is. And so, you know, when she first had doubts, she. Real doubts, she came to me and she was like, you know, I think I'm having issues here. And all along, I've been having issues for years at that point that I hadn't really talked about with her in any great detail. I would mention things here and there. You know, she would get upset if I made a joke or something about, you know, the history of the church. But that was my way of dealing with these things I didn't understand.

Pregnancy Loss and Deepening Faith Crisis

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:11:51] So now at this point in time, this is about 2015, we find out shortly after the new year, we find out that I'm expecting.

John Dehlin [01:12:04] You're with number three.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:12:06] Three we're expecting with our third child. So when I get pregnant, it's not your typical pregnancy. You're signing up for a war zone here. It's like you're kind of signing your life away for the next 10 months. My pregnancies are very vigorous. They call for a lot of medical intervention. So sure enough, I get pregnant with our third child. And immediately I am just sick as all can get out. But this time it's worse than all my other pregnancies combined. So, of course, I wasn't gaining any weight. I was throwing up anywhere from 10 to 20 times a day. I couldn't hold any food down. I was going into the hospital to get weighed in. Every day I was on home care, I was stuck to an IV bag 24 7. They were feeding me calories through intravenously and I had needles in my arms 247 trying to feed me vitamins. And every time they would try and give me vitamins, it would restrict me back to my bed, and I couldn't get out of bed. And I mean, it was bad enough without the vitamins. It was bad enough I. To be honest, if that was not death, I don't Know what death is because. And you can even ask people that are very close to me, like my mom. She said I looked like I was dying at that point. Every day for me in my pregnancy, it was taking it one day at a time. It was me waking up that morning feeling like I hit a brick wall all over again. And how was I going to make it to 11am how was I going to make it to 3pm how was I going to make it to 6pm it was the hardest thing for me. So, sure enough, I was so sick that I could not make it to an ultrasound appointment because I just was trying to get by. I'm starting to feel a little bit better one day, but I'm having some concerns. We're about five and a half, six months into our pregnancy with our third child, and the doctor says, why don't you come in? We'll give you an ultrasound. And sure enough, I'm sitting there on the ultrasound table, and it's just dead quiet. And the nurse is like, oh, Brooke, I'm just having a hard time trying to get the heartbeat. Just give me a second here. And I'm just thinking, everything's fine. I mean, I've never dealt with a miscarriage or had infertility issues or fertility issues in the past. And sure enough, five minutes goes by. It's like the longest five minutes of my life. She's running in and out of the room, and she comes back in the room and she says, brooke, I can't find a heartbeat. And so I'm thinking, okay, what's next? Do we need to go get another ultrasound? She says, there's no movement. And I'm like, so, what are you telling me? And she tells me, your baby's gone. And I just remember at that moment, it was the hardest moment I've ever had to go through. I lost my little girl. I was all alone in that room. And part of me just wanted to die. I didn't want to be there. I just. You know, there's. You have your kids, you have your husband. You want to be here with your kids, your husband, your loved one. But then there's another part of you that wants to be with that baby. I connected with her. I felt her move. And in just a matter of hours, she was gone. At the point in time that we lost her, it was considered a stillborn. So we named her Phoebe. We had a little service for her, and we have her remainings and an urn in our living room and just remind us every day that she's still with us. And it was just so surreal from one day, you know, like, going into. When I came home from the hospital that day, I walked into my bedroom and I didn't need the IVs anymore. I didn't need the machines anymore to stabilize my body, to stabilize the baby. And for once, the hardship of bearing that I was bearing every day became gratitude for me. When I looked at how I was going to overcome every obstacle every day of being sick, I was able to turn that into every second that I got to spend with her. I was just grateful to be able to have that experience and spend that small amount of time with her on this earth and be her mom for a short period of time. But that was, for us, a very hard period in time in our life. When we lost her, it was a huge loss. And

John Dehlin [01:18:22] how. How in any way did that experience impact your beliefs and. Or the. The changes in beliefs that you were starting to experience?

Josh Miller [01:18:35] For me, so me, again, a terrible time that we were going through on the inside. For me, I was really questioning the church and religion in general internally, not externally. So Brooke didn't know my stance, where I was, and we didn't talk about her. It was very much, we're going to be again together as a family. It's eternal family. It was a place of comfort. And that's the way we, you know, we talked about it and we didn't. I think that put things on pause for a bit. And I think that's what a lot of people go through, right? Is they hang on to the hope. Whatever your belief is, whether you stay in the church or leave the church, whatever your feeling is on eternal beliefs or eternal families. But that's a big draw. Everyone wants that. Everyone wants to be with their family forever. And I had to accept the fact that, okay, even if I don't believe in the church, I still believe this is possible. And that was my frame of mind at the time, was, I don't know what's gonna happen. It was a sobering moment for me. I think the first way to think about mortality in that sense. And what does happen now if I don't believe in the church anymore, what does that mean for me? And I dealt with that internally. I didn't talk about that with anyone. And I didn't want, obviously, knowing what Brooke was going through and we were going through, didn't want to bring it up. So that's where my frame of mine was at the time. And, you know, we kept with that. And we still have the hope now that there'll be eternal families. And it's not. You know, I think that's one of the things I had to realize that the church doesn't own components. Right. It's not like they copyrighted a belief. That's something very personal. And how you come to that belief is based on your experiences, based on what you believe, based on what you've learned, the way you feel. And that's something that's interesting that people bring up to us all the time. In fact, they're like, well, what are you gonna do now? You can't have an eternal family if you leave the church and wait. And our response is, why?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:21:05] Well, that's. Yeah, for me, that's a really unfair thing. For one, it's none of your business to dictate your or put your beliefs on me. And two, who are you to set limitations and tell me your narrative of what you believe is how things work. We have the ability to set our own narrative and put those limitations on our own beliefs. And so I feel like that's not for anyone to set that and it's not right for them to. I think in some way it's kind of a shaming comment, and it's very unfair to push that or even ask that for someone to believe the way that you believe. I think we all have our free agency to set our own expectations or limitations that estefar as far as what we believe.

Josh Miller [01:22:13] Yeah. And I feel like you're even more entitled to that belief system if you're outside of the church than inside of it. Because, I mean, a lot of people that are inside the church that subscribe to what doctrine they want to, and I'm like, you either believe in the prophet or you don't. But if you're outside the church, you can use whatever, you know, whatever form you want to. There's no boundaries on the way you perceive things.

John Dehlin [01:22:38] Thank you for joining us today on more Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rocks is a featured single on Angela Soph's upcoming album Second Wind. Inspired by her struggle with the faith journey out of orthodox religion. You can find and follow her on social media media as AngelAsofBam. That's S O F F E on Spotify or AngelAsof.com.

Guest [01:23:24] So judge me Cast me your stones I will lay them back in at your feet Take my hand let's walk we like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do I don't know why we all stand in a circle and point a finger or two Tell me how can you see what is buried beneath a mountain of smiles? We're all thrown in the same blue water of the unknown so leave your rocks at home. The truth is not what it seems we are told to just be believing the story has never been told and we all need someone to listen to hold hearts is there beating with so much more than we see.

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 878

Josh Miller [00:00:00] We like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. So we can. We can talk more about that towards the end, about where you're. Where you're believing now. But so it sounds like. And I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what that would be like. We had some miscarriages, but not a stillborn. I think that's a whole other level of difficulty and tragedy. So I'm so sorry.

Josh Miller [00:01:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] So it sounds like that kind of put the discussion or even the pursuit of questioning on pause for some time.

Josh Miller [00:01:27] Yeah, I think, although communication wise. Right. I'm just still. I was still wrestling with these problems by myself, actually.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:01:36] So it was October 20th of 2015 that we lost our baby. And it was just shortly, not even a month later, they came out with a stance on the LGBTQ issues. So I think that the.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] November 2020.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:01:52] Yeah, I think that kind of caused an up. An uproar in our, like, our questions.

The November 2015 Policy and Leaving Behind Garments

Josh Miller [00:01:59] Well, I think. And I mentioned this before, but one of my. One of the things that got me thinking about religion in general and. And this fact that there's one true church or the idea that there's one true church is that. And I don't personally. I mean, other than a couple people in, you know, in the family. In our family that are either lesbian or gay. I didn't know personally, but I thought I did see people that were committing suicide. I saw families that were ruined over it. And, you know, if you believe in the God that the church teaches, a loving God, someone who knows you as an individual, it never made sense to me why God would make someone lesbian or gay and then tell them that they can't act on it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:02:47] And who is that and who's to decide?

Josh Miller [00:02:49] And who's to decide that? And even before I questioned the church, that was a problem before my mission. I felt that way before my mission. And I would ask people about it and they would say, well, that's just their trial they've been given. I'M like, no, that does not make sense to me in any way. They're like, it's like alcoholism. No, it's not. And so that was always kind of an underlying issue for me. I remember laying again, watching news, and they. Or it was on Facebook, Brooke goes, hey, the church just announced a policy that, you know, if a kid is in a home with lesbian parents or gay parents, they can't be baptized until they're 18. I'm like, don't believe everything you read on Facebook. That's what I said. Because I thought in my mind, there's no way.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:03:33] And I'm like, this is real. This is happening.

Josh Miller [00:03:35] I was like, there's no way they would say that. Right. Openly. There's no way that they would come out with that policy. And sure enough, it was real. And that was another thing that was just a blow to me that I thought, wow, okay, this is. If you're going to keep driving the wedge between me and the church, this is another big one that they just threw in there. And on my. My. My personal beliefs, morally, and what the

John Dehlin [00:03:57] church believes, what was that policy like for you?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:04:01] Well, okay, so the next morning, I mean, I was actually quite offended because, like I said, my sister. They're like my sisters to me. My twin cousins, they. One of them is bisexual and one of them is lesbian, and she's married to a wonderful person we just love. And I don't know if Jesse's on here or if she's listening, but anyways, so we. For me, that kind of hits home because, you know, a person's heart, at best, you understand that everyone's trying to navigate this life to the best of their ability, and life is hard enough. Why add on to those afflictions and make them feel more guilty than they already feel with how they've been born or how they've been raised? It's like telling somebody who's born without an arm that, you know, that they should be ashamed that they weren't born with an arm and that, no, they can't have a prosthetic arm to validate or to help them. You know, how. So that they can have two arms and they can function properly. You know what I mean? So it's like, how can you sit there and tell someone that was born paralyzed or paraplegic that they can't have a wheelchair? I mean, who.

Josh Miller [00:05:24] And not even that they're flawed physically, but spiritually.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:05:27] Spiritually, yeah. I mean, just because it's not a mental flaw that you can or a physical Flaw that you can see from your own eyes doesn't mean it's not there. And I just feel like there's a lot of issues here on this earth. It's not for us to judge. And I strongly believe that that's one of the issues that's not for us to judge. So the next following morning, we wake up and we get. There's this family text message string that we get. And my brother attaches the article about the issue, and he says, what do you guys think about this? So I have people chiming in in my family, and one of my brothers chimes in and says, what's to think about? The prophet said it. So we just go with what the prophet says. We don't question it. And so then I replied to that and I said, so if the prophet told you to jump off a cliff, would you do that, too? And it was kind of just like. Like, let's just not go into this. This is a touchy subject, you know?

Josh Miller [00:06:38] Yeah, we have family that had a close relationship with their boss, which was lesbian. And for me at the time, again, my concept was, well, if you're two lesbian parents, why would you want to raise your kid in the church anyways? Why would you want them to be baptized? And so this whole journey has brought to me a spectrum of believers. Right? Like, I used to think it was black and white. You believe it or you don't. And this kind of plays into later in our conversation with Spencer on the way people perceive things. But, you know, she went on to say that this person grew up in the church. She loved the church, but she knew she was lesbian and she was going to be a lesbian, but she wanted their child to be part of the church because she felt like it was a good upbringing and a good support system, and she hoped that her kid didn't have to face the same problems she did being lesbian. And so she wanted to raise her in the church and she wanted to be baptized, but that policy came out and she had to take a side. Right? There was no more of this neutral ground where we love everyone, but it was more of a, well, if you're going to be this way, then we don't want you here. And so it opened my eyes to this group of people that grew up in the church, have an emotional tie with the church, but they may not believe in its doctrine, but they still want to participate in it for whatever reason, good youth program, whatever it may be. So I just think, again, that was one more thing for me personally, that was just like, I really. Again, I think when that hit, I really started to dive in. That's at the point where I was like, okay, I'm not going to wait for information to come to me. I'm going to start doing my research because I'm really struggling.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:08:21] So now we get. A year and a half later, we get pregnant with our fourth child. And of course, like, I'm sick. I. Not as sick as I was with our last one. I'm still having the medical intervention that I had before, but it's not to the degree that I had before or the extent. But I'm having some health issues. And I go to a couple doctors and I actually had been going, having these health issues for probably years prior to. And I had been kind of aligned with the word of wisdom with the health issues. I was having to not go into too much detail. And so, I mean, these came. These health issues probably go back into prior to when we were married. But then I didn't decide to actually do something about it until after Cohen was born because they were just getting worse. So at this point, I was trying other healthy alternatives, like green tea extract or teas of certain sorts, or vitamins, all sorts of. You name it, I tried it. And so as I continue to go to specialists and doctors, multiple doctors on several occasions had told me, you need to drink coffee, you need to drink black coffee. This is going to benefit you in so many ways. You are an ideal candidate to drink black coffee. So, of course, this adds onto my shelf. And I'm feeling so much guilt at this point in time because I'm thinking, why? Why would they tell me to drink black coffee? It's so bad for you. I've always been taught that it's horrible for you. So I'm just kind of talking to my family about it, and every one of them is like, well, have you tried this? Have you tried that? Do you think I haven't tried this? Do you think I haven't tried that? I've tried everything I've been doing. I've been dealing with this for 10 years. I've tried to incorporate certain foods into my diet. And I'm a. I'm actually a very healthy eater. So for me, if it hasn't worked yet, it's not going to work. So I start researching black coffee. I start finding all these amazing benefits about it, how wonderful it is for you and how it lowers the risk of heart disease and how it just. It can help you. It's a natural diuretic and Just lots of things about coffee that could benefit me, especially. Whereas I'm a mom and I'm not getting any sleep. There's the added perks of caffeine. And so I'm skeptical about this, and I really don't want to drink it because it's against the word of wisdom. And I'm trying to navigate where my feelings are on the stance of coffee and the word of wisdom are now. So that's where I think things start to kind of escalate.

Josh Miller [00:11:35] Yeah. And I think one other thing that was important that we didn't know that around the November 2015 time is when I stopped wearing my. My garments. And for Brooke, it was like a big blow. It was kind of like, why are you doing this? You know, is there something else you're not telling me? You know, and I just. I didn't feel right about it. I didn't feel. I didn't feel like I believed in the church anymore. I felt like I was kind of done. And we. And not that I had vocalized that. It was just kind of this one thing that was unsaid. I didn't want to go to church ever. Um, and I had a calling. I would go to my calling, and then I would go back home. And at that point, it was, you know, so it went on for a while, probably about a year.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:12:18] He hadn't. He had not dove. He hasn't. He hasn't gone down the rabbit hole at this point.

Josh Miller [00:12:28] Yeah, I wasn't looking at, like, MormonThink or CS Letter or any of that stuff yet, but I felt with all these different issues that I just didn't align with the church anymore. And so that was a struggle in our marriage for a while where she thought, you know, again, going back to the way she's been taught her whole life is, well, your husband's doing something he shouldn't be doing.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:12:48] And I continued to wear my garments, and I continued to go to my callings, and I was in young women's. And at this point, I'm thinking, well, it's got to be true, because my patriarchal blessing talks about me in young women's, and I'm in young women's. And so, like, I'm thinking it's pretty general still. Wear my garments still. Keep pulling the wagon. I'm pulling the wagon still. So.

Josh Miller [00:13:12] Yeah. And so, you know, about. About the, you know, mid. Mid 2015, I started getting into 16.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:13:23] 16.

Josh Miller [00:13:24] 16, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] After the policy.

Josh Miller [00:13:27] Yes, yes, sorry. 16. Yes. Thank you. So it's actually before that so beginning of 2016, really. And I started getting into. I read the CS letter. And those were things. Some of those things I'd heard, a lot of them I had not heard.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:13:42] It was 2017 because we had Navy.

Josh Miller [00:13:44] No, no, no. I told you that we were leaving, that I was done before Navy was gone.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:13:48] Okay. Yeah, okay.

Josh Miller [00:13:49] So beginning of 2016. And anyway, so I would stay up till 2 in the morning, just in bed on my phone, reading everything I possibly could consume. Like, and I would read Mormon Think, and I would read Fair Mormon. I wanted to give both sides a fair shot. I was at no means trying to find a way out. I just thought, this stuff is amazing. And then, you know, the biggest thing for me that really was just like, okay, this is ridiculous, was the Book of Abraham. Like, the fact, the facsimiles and the. That it was a copy from funeral text. I mean, funerary text, and that it was an identical drawing. But the parts that was missing, you could tell he just penciled in. Like, there were just things that just continued to add up. And I remember one night sitting there. This was in March of 2016. I remember sitting there at night at 2 in the morning, and it was like the clouds departed. There were blue skies. I had an epiphany. I had an aha moment. You know, and you can even call it a spiritual moment, is the minute I had allowed myself to believe that the church, or an option at least, that the church was not true. Everything made complete sense. I no longer wrestled with these issues of polygamy, of Joseph Smith, of the Book of Abraham, of the witnesses leaving the church, Emma leaving the church. All of this stuff was like, well, duh, Josh, it's made up. It's the religion. It's not true. It's not real. None of this stuff, you know, it makes perfect sense now that it's not true. Like, it was no more. How do I make these issues, these problems pan out in my brain? How do I. How do I rationalize them? How do I fit them into my logic? And they just don't fit, right? Like, it was. It just didn't compute. But once I realized that I was trying to fit it, you know, a square. Square peg into a round hole hit taunt on me that I was doing it wrong, I was thinking about it wrong. And that was. That was the night that I was like, okay, I'm done. I can't. Because for a long time, even though I had doubts, I thought, well, maybe I raised my kids in it. Maybe, you know, I Just deal with it. And, you know, my kids ask questions, be honest with them about it. But, you know, but then at the end of the day, I thought, I can't. I don't believe in Joseph Smith. The things that he's done to me now are atrocious. The way I view him today is that he was an intelligent person, very different, very opposite of what the church paints. That he wasn't just some dumb young kid. He was a smart, entrepreneurial person that was hungry.

Josh's Struggles and Deciding Whether to Stay

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:16:40] He didn't collaborate the scriptures. At 14 years old, it was more like 20.

Josh Miller [00:16:43] Yeah. That he was very well aware that this route was going to gain him money, power and influence, and that that's the route he took. And, you know, all of this stuff made sense to me.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:16:56] Multiple accounts of the first vision, not just one.

Josh Miller [00:16:59] Yeah. And that time, you know, I even listened to. That's when I found Mormon stories, which for me was an absolute lifesaver. It helped me understand that there were sincere, honest, intelligent people out there that were going through the same thing. Because at that time, I still felt like I was a sinner. You know, maybe I lost the spirit somewhere. You know, like the temple ordinances. Right. I never. I don't know about anybody else, but I never once went to the temple and thought, oh, this is amazing. I remember going there and being like, it's a quiet place. I can ponder, I can think. But it wasn't, you know, to me. I was like, it may be in my mind. I was like, well, maybe I did something wrong. You know, maybe it's the Diet Coke. I don't know. I'm not feeling the spirit. And. But all that made sense once I realized the church wasn't true. And, you know, it was. I think it was Nikki and Lance's podcast, the couple where they come on and they talk about their transition. And it was eye opening for me. It was refreshing. I listened to Tom Phillips podcast. That one blew my mind that he had met with Jeffrey R. Holland, because I. And something I did not mention as part of my struggles is I actually went to the bishop. I did go to the bishop for a full year, like numerous occasions, numerous times, and was pretty honest with him.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:18:23] And of course, you know, from a wife's perspective, your husband's going to the bishop all the time. What's going on? Is there something he's not telling you?

Josh Miller [00:18:29] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:18:29] And so what did you fear?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:18:32] Oh, alcohol, porn,

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Infidelity.

Josh Miller [00:18:38] Infidelity.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:18:38] Infidelity. You know, like, that was huge. What's he not telling me? Why does he need to go? But, you know, to be honest, like, looking back at it, I actually handled it pretty well. I don't. I don't know, Josh, in all honesty, you can say what you want to

Josh Miller [00:18:54] say, but I was persecuted.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:18:55] I never.

Josh Miller [00:18:56] She was great. She was great about the.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:18:58] I never really questioned it, did I?

Josh Miller [00:19:00] No, you did.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:19:01] Well, no, not the bishop interviews.

Josh Miller [00:19:03] No, no, you didn't.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:19:04] No.

Josh Miller [00:19:05] And I think. Because you thought, well, if he's meeting with the bishop, right, he's doing the right thing, you're thinking the right things.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:19:11] I just wanted to trust him. And.

Josh Miller [00:19:13] Yeah, and our bishop, an incredible man, like, just. There's all different kinds, but this guy is down to earth, just salty. The earth kind of person that was just. I think he couldn't imagine somebody else better to help through a transition, even though he wasn't there, obviously telling me, josh, you're making the right things. But he's like, I get it. You're questioning, you know, but his. What really was a struggle is his response was, josh, you just need to read these scriptures. You know, you just need to pray about these things. And I'm like, well, Bishop, I've already done that. I've done that for years, and it's not helping. You know, what about this and this and this? And he's like, well, I didn't know about any of that. And so I did. I tried. I went to the bishop for years, for a year, for a full year, trying to figure, figure that out. Because at this, at the time, my son Cohen was, Was going to be baptized. And I wrestled with the fact that I didn't. I didn't believe in the church, and I wanted to be open and honest about that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:20:13] That spoke character to me as well. And, and it spoke in volumes. Because if your husband is. Question, he's trying to. He's being true to himself and analyzing whether or not he is going to baptize your son. I mean, that tells you that he's got his best interest at heart because he's trying to make the right decision and he's trying to be honest with himself and with the church. And he's. He doesn't want to take advantage of that authority because you hear about people that go drink one weekend and then the next day they're in church taking the sacrament. Josh is not the type of person who's going to go drink one weekend and then be in sacrament meeting the next day taking sacrament. He's. He's very honest that way. And he's a very Logical thinker. And so for him, he. He was. He took this very serious. So I. I could see his intentions, and I could see that he had the best interest at heart. So I had faith in that, and that was playing into his favor as well. In our favor, I guess.

Josh Miller [00:21:23] Yeah. So I did. I mean, at the time I made the decision, excuse me, with the bishop, that I would go through with the baptism. He knew all the issues that I had with the church, but he was still, you know, Josh, I think you should still do it if you want to do it. And so I did. And I was hoping. I was really hoping for some profound spiritual experience. I'm going to baptize my son. But I didn't have one. I'd seen family, friends, brothers go through baptisms and be in tears, and I just didn't feel it. In fact, I even asked my son. I'm like, well, maybe it's me. Maybe it's, you know. And I said, well, you know, how do you feel? And he goes, feel the same, you know? And I almost wonder if we indoctrinate kids into this idea that they're supposed to feel something amazing, and then they're like, like, oh, yeah, I felt cool, you know, but because he was like, I don't feel anything. And I thought, well, you know, that's one more thing for me that I just. I can't make it work. And I. And at the time our. Our baby was born, about to be

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:22:34] born, I was like, two weeks prior.

Josh Miller [00:22:36] Two weeks prior, I was sitting on the porch. It was a nice day outside, just sitting on the back deck. And Brooke comes out, and she's like, you know, how are you doing? And I'm like, have you ever read the CS Letter? And she's like, no. And I said, look, here are some issues that I can't get around. And I said, I just don't believe in the church anymore. That was the first time I vocalized that, even though I'd felt that way for a long time. And I remember Brooke's response just looking at me like, well, you're not going to leave the church, right? Like, there's too many good things that it has to offer, you know, you would never leave the church. And I could not respond. I just sat there in silence because deep down, I knew that I couldn't continue to participate in the way that I had before. I knew again to the unspoken rule that we were Mormon. That's what kind of the unspoken agreement when we were married that we were going to be Mormon. And now I've broken that, you know, and I couldn't sit on the fence anymore. Sitting on the fence is a terrible place. And I know a lot of people do it out of necessity. They do it because, same situation, out of fear of rejection from their family or their spouse or their children. I understand that. I did that for years, but if anyone's listening that is going through a similar thing. There is we. I would not be where I'm at today if I had not been. If I've not communicated to my spouse the way I felt.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Okay, totally keep going.

Josh Miller [00:24:19] Yeah. And so, you know, for me, it was. It was a breath of fresh air. It was a relief to get that off my chest. I wasn't ready for the reaction. You know, hers was because we had talked about concerns here and there, and I thought, maybe she's like, okay, Josh, you know, I get it. If you don't want to go to church, that's fine. But at that first time, it really dawned on me that maybe our marriage won't survive this. Like, maybe she will dig her hills in and decide that she wants to be a member of the church no matter what, and that that's going to be her life. And that was terrifying.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Another option you had was just to stay silent and just play along and just stay active and just do what you could to just not disrupt. Some might even say it would be an act of selflessness to stay silent, and it might be an act of selfishness to, you know, your wife's having all these babies. You had a stillborn. Like, what. What was it like to stay silent? And why didn't you just keep staying silent?

Josh Miller [00:25:36] Yeah, it's a great question, you know, one, I did stay silent for years.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] And what was that like to stay silent for years?

Josh Miller [00:25:45] It was terrible. It was terrible because I felt like I believed one way and my spouse felt another way, and I was being judged. I felt like I was being judged by friends, family, and my spouse. And like, we talked about this, I think there was this underlying feeling that she thought that I was committing adultery or that, you know, I was off drinking or whatever. And that's the reason I had these doubts. And for me, that was the toughest part, was like, our relationship is suffering because of these issues, and that's what's so frustrating. And that's still frustrating today. And we'll talk a bit about later with. As it continues on down this path. But you hope, one would hope that somebody would know you well enough, know your intentions, know your integrity, that they would hear you out. And I knew that we had a good enough relationship that at the point where I was. I cannot. And you want to talk about confirmation? People say they have confirmation of the church or whatever, and they have a feeling. That was another thing as I kept relying on this feeling and to go back to one of my child. You mentioned spiritual experiences as a child. If you want to say spiritual experience in the sense of Mormonism, where you feel this warmth, you feel this confirmation. The strongest experience I ever had like that in my life was at a Baptist church, at a youth program with a friend. And it was a preacher up talking about repentance, and he was talking about grace. He was talking about grace from the Savior. And I felt just an overwhelming sense of love and just felt what we call a spiritual experience in the church. And I'm like. And that was, for me, you know, if these. If you can have a spiritual experience here or anywhere else, then it's not like the church owns spiritual experiences. And I think that was Brooke's point in the heavens, for real, is that it's arrogant of us to believe or members or any religion that they're the only ones that have communication with a higher being.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] So it was just. It was just too painful to stay silent.

Josh Miller [00:28:01] It was. Yeah, yeah. So it was too painful. I knew I couldn't sit on the fence. I couldn't raise my kid. I couldn't look my kid in the face and say, yeah, I believe in Joseph Smith. And for me, it came down to that. I'm like, I'm not going to teach my kid. He's got to know where I stand. And even then, when you start to take a step back and you don't believe in the church anymore, you question everything, right? And so now you look at a lens of, this might be the only life I have. This might be the only experience I have. I'm not going to live it in fear, and I'm not going to live it based on fear. And I have to rely on the relationship that Brooke and I have to get to a better spot. And that's the conclusion I made. It was better to be open and communicate than to sit silent.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Couple comments from those listening. Melissa writes, the fence is a horrible place. Thanks for sharing, Melissa. Let's see. Joyce writes, the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. Heather writes, you guys are literally word for word telling mine and my husband's story, every single thing. Stillborn, daughter at the same time, all of it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:29:08] My heart goes out to you.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] Thank you.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:29:10] I would hug you right now if I could.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Heather, Brooke, you guys have a hug in store. Thank you for sharing, Heather. Oh, Wyatt writes, following the resolve of my faith crisis, my sister in law said it best. It's like being the only sober person in the room. That's how Wyatt expresses it. Chris says, this interview is resonating with me so hard. And yeah, Mindy says, brave. So what was it like for you with him telling you he didn't believe the church is true anymore and talking about the CES letter? How'd that feel?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:29:50] You know, putting myself back in that situation that day when he was speaking to me? Of course, you owe it to your spouse to hear them out and you owe it to your spouse to consider, you know, that maybe they have a valid point. But at the same time, I'm listening to him and my thoughts, like, while I'm trying to listen to. Because he brought. The information he was bringing to me was not just like, you know, small pieces of information here and there. This is like a load of information he's dropping. And I'm kind of thinking, wow, this is really happening. Like, kind of like I'm one of those people. I'm not, because, you know, I think people kind of had this Persona or we gave off a Persona that we were the perfect family to some sense. We had it all together. We were strong in the church, we were happy. And you know, we were happy for a long time. But just like any happy person would, they. They doubt things sometimes. And, you know, we're all in this, we're all navigating our own faith the best way we can. So at that point and in that moment, I'm kind of like, wow, this is really happening. After Josh's and my discussion, I ran to my room and I always liked to pray in my closet. Ran to my closet. I hit my knees fast and I prayed hard. And I just asked Heavenly Father that everything would work out. And it seemed as though my prayers at that point in time from then on were very repetitive because I was praying so hard. They. It was almost though, like I had one moment where I was praying one day and I felt as though I had confirmation to just have faith, really, regardless.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] In what?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:32:18] In a sense, that things work out. Yes. And it may not work out the way I want it to, but to just have faith

John Dehlin [00:32:29] in the process.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:32:29] Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess moving forward, I had really bad anxiety over the whole thing. Regardless of the confirmation that I'd received my prayers, I did have I was getting some bad anxiety. I decided to maybe look online on some ex faith marriages and see what I could find there. See if I could find some peace, some. Some advice that would help me and Josh. And at this point in time, I so wish I knew about podcasting. I didn't know about podcasting at this point. At this point, I wish I knew about Mormon stories. I wish I knew about John Dehlin. I wish that he offered mixed faith marriage podcasts. And I couldn't find anything. There's nothing out there on the Internet that I could find. And it was so heart wrenching to me that I couldn't find anything. I mean, we're in the world of information. I mean, we're born in a time in the informational era where we have access at our fingertips to pretty much anything, and yet I couldn't find any information as to how I need to deal with the situation at hand. So that was really hard for me too, to find that. I. I mean, you hear about those people all the time where they take their kids to church for years on end. And, you know, I. I felt like I had been pulling the wagon for so long. I was getting to the point now where I felt like I couldn't keep pulling anymore. It was just getting too hard to pull and. But at that point in time, I just felt like I needed to still be strong and.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Can I jump in and ask a question?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:34:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] So, you know, 2015, I was excommunicated. Kate Kelly's excommunicated, 2014. Those are international news stories. And I only say that because it's kind of hard for me to imagine living along the Wasatch front. It was in the Salt Lake Tribune. It was in the Deseret News. It's kind of hard for you to imagine that you would not have heard of Mormon stories or, you know, CES letter or MormonThink or any of those things. But I know that most Mormons haven't. The overwhelming majority of Mormons still have it. So can you explain to me your best retrospective on how you could have not known about those things? Mormon stories has been around since 2005. I'm just curious so we can shed light on that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:35:17] I think that living in an orthodox Mormon world, the pressures are to study your scriptures. At this point, I'm still reading my scriptures every morning and every night. To be honest, I had so much desire to read. I mean, I hate to read. Let's be honest. If we're being honest, I hate to read. I didn't want to read anything. But if I got to the point where I knew I had to read my scriptures every morning and night, I was getting really kind of sick of reading my scriptures every morning and night because it was getting very redundant. I wasn't reading anything different that I hadn't already known. It was just kind of getting old to me. And I. But I guess the reason why I was getting kind of fed up with it was, and I was kind of yearning for something more and I, I was even looking to maybe read a book by Thomas S. Monson or just really anything because. But as a, as a stay at home wife and as a mom, the time that I had, I was giving it to my scriptures, I wasn't, I didn't have any more time to give to other means of source of knowledge.

Josh Miller [00:36:31] Yeah. And I think, I think that's true for most people, at least. My experience was with Brooke, I would say, look, in fact, I found Mormon stories by looking for mixed faith marriages. And you know, in the Mormon community. And that's how I found Mormon stories. And I remember and fair Mormon, I would come to Brooke and say, hey, Brooke, here are some issues. You know, here's fair Mormon, here's Mormon think, here's these podcasts. And it was almost an immediate. That's anti Mormon. Like people in the church. Yeah. Even in family members that we tell them, they say, well, I don't want to read that stuff. It's bad, right? And you're like, what do you mean it's bad? People have been so conditioned to not think for themselves, to be told how they think, how they act and what they believe. And you're built into that. And what law is there like? And this was, I mean, get into this a bit later with Spencer's approach. Why it was so refreshing. But it was no, you need to learn as much as you can from the best books, period. You need to go out and research. And because you're, you're not going to find your own testimony of whatever that is, whether it's in or out of the church, unless you do your own research. But I think that's the initial reaction Brooke had was, oh, Josh, this anti Mormon stuff, I'm not gonna look at that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:37:47] The wall goes up. The wall just comes right up. And I see it now that I'm out. For instance, I got, I had a little get together with my friends just a couple weeks ago, and the one friend that I expected to understand the most, she'd served a mission. None of my other friends There served a mission. And she. It was obvious at that point I had told them that we were leaving the church that night and that I kind of just, like, dropped the bomb on them all. And we go way back. These friends. They are my friends from seventh grade, and we have been through everything together. And this friend that, you know, served a mission says to me, well, I mean, you asked, didn't you? And I said, what do you mean? She said, well, you prayed about it, right? That's what it's all about. And I said, oh, I prayed about it my whole life. And she said, well, did. Did you receive an answer? I said, I received answers my whole life. And she goes, so you've had a confirmation. You prayed about it, and that's all you need? And I said, no, actually, no. And then when I started explaining myself, she literally couldn't handle it. She walked right out of the room. She couldn't handle it. And I thought that, you know, as a returned missionary, she would be the one who would understand the most. And, you know, they should be taught to confront these issues. They should know this material before they're sent out on missions. But yet they're not. They're taught in secrecy. I mean, they're taught everything yet or. But what they should be taught.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] So, yeah, and this is what. When we get to the. We'll get to the Spencer Fluman stuff very soon. But the fact that there's so much, you know, in spite of the Maxwell Institute, in spite of Mormon stories, in spite of CES Letter, in spite of Fair Mormon, in spite of the essays, enough is not being done to make the essays aware and available. We have surveys of bishops who have never heard of the essays, let alone read them. Like, possibly a majority of bishops still don't know the essays exist, nor have they read them. Most Mormons don't know about, you know, Fair Mormon. And of course, not only do they not know about Mormon stories and CES Letter and Mormonthink and podcasts, but if they do know about them, they're immediately warned and guarded against them. So the Church is putting up these massive firewalls to prevent even the essays. It's been acknowledged that the Church intentionally did not promote and share the essays in a very, you know, in the way that they would, you know, defend themselves against a Book of Mormon musical. Like, they had a big Broadway. They actually rent, you know, Times Square, you know, space, you know, advertisements in the Book of Mormon brochure to combat the Book of Mormon musical. But they have not done anything near that to promote the essays and the awareness. And they've excommunicated and hidden and silenced anyone who's spoken. So part of one of the reasons why we're going to be talking about Spencer Fluman and the Maxwell Institute is because, you know, not only what Spencer and what he's teaching isn't widely enough shared, but just these issues aren't widely enough shared. And that's a problem because it leads people like you guys to, you know, and specifically you, Josh, but eventually you, Brooke, to be sort of hung out to dry.

Studying the Gospel Topics Essays Together

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:19] Well, and can I add to that, John?

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Yeah, please.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:22] I am a firm believer that, you know, they. They boast about being open and they. They talk about disclosing this information and to. They're all about talking about it with your kids. And I mean, they say. They say these things. Right. But even in Sunday school, I want to say shortly after we left the church, they had it. We overheard that. They had a huge talk and in Gospel doctrine, about how you shouldn't hold back from the knowledge that you're taught, but make sure you read the good things and not the bad things. Well, if you really want to be open and you really want your members to know what they're investing in, I honestly do not believe that they're encouraging us to know more until they speak it from the pulpit, until we see these, you know, the general authorities and the apostles speak these things from the pulpit and address these issues from there. Because to be honest, not once have you ever seen them get up to those pulpits and talk openly about these issues.

John Dehlin [00:42:33] Yeah, really quickly. Just a couple things we're reading from listeners. Kelly writes, I'm in Texas, but nobody I know in Utah, California or Texas knows anything about the CES Letter, Mormon Stories podcast, or any of the history. As Mormons, we live in a bubble. It's crazy to know what I know now and think I didn't know any of this six months ago. Any of it in 2018. Right. People, the majority of educated Mormons in the United States still don't know about any of these issues, including Mormon Stories podcast or the Maxwell Institute or Fair Mormon. So something is not happening. For everyone's good intentions, something's not happening.

Josh Miller [00:43:17] Well, I think we talked a bit about this before is it is very difficult in the information age to not run into these things. And I think what people do is they bury their head in the sand. It's like being in your home and there's a war going on. There's bombs firing everywhere, and. And you're convincing yourself that you don't want to hear the bombs. Because when we bring this has been our experience when we've brought these things to friends, family, the majority is they say that's anti Mormon so they won't look at it. Or two, they say, I'm happy where I'm at. I don't really. I even had somebody say to me, I don't want to know what you know. They flat out said it because I'm happy where I'm at. I don't want to know what you want, what you know.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:43:58] You can't tell me anything that I don't already know. How conceited is that?

Josh Miller [00:44:03] Yeah. And then you tell them something and they're like, oh, I didn't know. I didn't know about that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:44:06] In fact, I said to somebody, what about polyandry? And they said, who's that?

John Dehlin [00:44:14] A couple other things. So Noreen writes, they're playing sort of a double agent game. Maggie writes, my grandson in Salt Lake City on a mission has not heard of the CES letter. Nicole writes, they say only expect what's been said on the Mormon pulpit. Everything else is of the devil. They teach. Noreen writes, the essays are a damage limitation exercise to imply openness and honesty, but aren't exposed to general scrutiny for the reasons you're speaking about. Ashley writes, if it's between ruining your marriage or sitting on the fence, isn't it better just to play along? How do you just follow what you believe if it goes against all the things you promised your spouse your life would be with them so hard? And again, I think Ashley's speaking to just one of the reasons why people don't want to talk about this. Spencer writes, we need Mormon Stories pass along cards. I agree. We need a Mormon Stories podcast and a CES letter billboard. We need to actually raise money to put billboards up along the Wasatch front to make this stuff more known. And then finally someone writes. Matt writes, mormon Stories needs better search engine optimization. And you can be dang sure the LDS Church and the More Good foundation and you know, fair Mormon have money from deep pocketed individuals to advertise and to make sure that Google shows their content before Mormon stories and before anything else. So if there's any Mormon Stories Open Stories foundation supporters out there that would want to contribute to a campaign to purchase a billboard or space on a billboard or advertising for ZS letter, we would help coordinate that because we agree that this needs to be more available, but just to kind of close this segment, because I think it's time to move to Spencer's. Talk just briefly about what pain this caused for you individually, Josh, for your marriage, for you to have so much ignorance out there.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:46:21] So let me just hurry and say this. So upon Josh coming to me with all this information, I guess my next move was to do the first thing that I was taught not, or to, to go with the first thing that I was taught to do. And that was to not look into anti Mormon doctrine. So not to not look into what he's been looking into. Instead, I think, okay, I have a loving mother and a loving father and brothers and sisters or six brothers that have gone on missions. They're knowledgeable enough, they should be able to answer some of these questions. So Josh relays some of the information to me and yes, he's got valid points. And then of course, when I go to them and I relay this information to them and I ask their opinions and I want their input as to what I should do, they. They can't give me answers. The only thing, in fact, I had a good friend that told me this was really hurtful. And if my anxiety wasn't bad enough, this just kind of added to it. She says to me, well, Brooke, there's got to be something else going on. There's something he's not telling you. Whether it be adultery or porn, or whether it be ulterior motives behind the scenes, you've got to figure out what's going on. And, and then of course, one day I'm walking down the street and I'm strolling my daughter in her. My, my brand new baby daughter in her stroller. I literally had a neighbor come out and chase me. She must have got caught wind of what was going on. And she says to me, you know, I, we went to dinner the other night with this guy who receives letters on behalf of the church. And he tells me that you wouldn't believe how many husband or mothers write in. Wives write in to the church saying, my husband looked into anti Mormon doctrine and now he's cheating on me and we're getting in a divorce. So literally, like, you're being conditioned, John. And I mean literally conditioned. Brainwashed. From a very young age, I have been told horror stories like this. So, you know, of course I'm going to therapy. At this point, I'm having serious anxiety and this anxiety is creeping into depression. Now I'm at a place where I've worked so hard to have this baby. My family's complete and I don't want to be here anymore. I just want to die. And I. I am in the depths of despair and I don't have my family there because they're. What I mean, I want to say they were trying to help, but unknowingly to them, they had rightful intentions and their heart went out to me. But they were all telling me everything that would give me information against what I needed to hear. Thank goodness we were going to a therapist who was a non LDS therapist. And we went to him one day and we walked away and I just felt like I could finally breathe again. He'd given me some really great information and advice.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] What are types of responses that aren't useful? What were some of the information you were being given that wasn't helpful?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:50:01] There's something else going on that you need to know. I can't answer these things for the church, but I know the church is true. And, you know, it's really. It's funny because now that I'm out of it, the things that people say, that they're in it unknowingly, they don't realize how dumb. And I don't want to be mean, but they don't realize how ridiculous it sounds, you know, and it's like, oh, yeah, I can't answer your questions, but I know the church is true. And I. And your husband is wrong. And he just wants to drink everybody. Because, you know, Josh, he lives. He works in a very social atmosphere and it sells. And you know, you can bond upon drinking and you know, he's surrounded a lot by it. So of course they're just assuming that he wants to drink and he's making compromised decisions. And then they're starting to think, well, Brooke wants to drink coffee though, because she's having health issues and the doctors are telling her to drink coffee. And I mean, so there's that aspect of it and then there's the laziness aspect, you know, that we're lazy or that we're just. It's the easy way out for me to just believe my husband or save my marriage. Though those accusations are being thrown out there as well. So I think that that's kind of what happened. We had a friend who lived in the neighborhood and they had left the church eight years prior to us. And they. We had always been kind, like from. Upon moving in, they left, right. A little bit prior to us moving into the neighborhood in South Jordan. And they. We had always kind of known we'd heard about these people and they were. People would say stuff like almost frowning down on them. Oh, they left the church. He was so smart. He had all the questions, and everybody was so shocked when he left. And she. Then she left because she was just following him. And she. And now they do this, and they do this, and they're so bad. You know, not necessarily they're so bad, but they just kind of talked down about them and were kind of frowned about in the neighborhood and wild stories.

Josh Miller [00:52:33] Yes, wild stories about who they were as people after they left the church, things they were into, which were all completely false. So it's amazing how people like what they said they were swingers. They said that. You know, I mean, the story is that, in fact, when we first moved in five years ago, that's what people would tell us. Hey, you know, don't worry about them. They used to be really active. In fact, it was crazy because he was the gospel doctrine teacher and was really smart. But now they've left the church and now they're anti. And, you know, they're. They're into all kinds of crazy stuff, like swinging key parties. And we were like, all right. We didn't really think of anything because anytime we met him on the sidewalk or walking down the street, we're like, oh, these people are really nice. You know, really down to everybody.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:53:14] And I thought, oh, gosh, me and Rachel would get along really well if it weren't. It's really unfortunate if it weren't, considering our religious differences or. I mean, and. Which is so messed up. Who's to say you can't have a good relationship and that religious differences have to separate that, you know, And I think that lots of speculation gets thrown in once you leave. People just assume. And, like, we are. We're struggling here still. We have so many family members. And, like, there's huge wedges that are being. That are dividing us as a family. Our relationships are being inflicted upon. We're being separated just because. And I feel like, you know, it's because the church. I don't know. I mean, they kind of condition people to think a certain way that when stuff like this happens, you're frowned upon. But anyways, so moving on. Rachel, this is where I'm just at a really low point.

Impact on Their Marriage and Family

John Dehlin [00:54:25] Suicidal or.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:54:27] Yeah, I would never kill myself.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] But you were wanting to die.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:54:31] I wanted to die really quick.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] Josh, what was it like? How was she treating you? What was it like to be in that space for you?

Josh Miller [00:54:41] I was just trying to be patient, you know?

John Dehlin [00:54:44] Was it straining your marriage?

Josh Miller [00:54:45] For sure, how we didn't talk as much. She she would always, like, if she saw me watching a podcast, it was always like I was doing something wrong. I felt like when she'd walk in, I was watching it. It was like I was, oh, Josh is digging into anti Mormon literature again. You know, he's just going at it. And I would bring things up to her like, hey, Brooke, did you hear about, you know, the blood oath? No. Well, this is what it is. Isn't that crazy? And everything I would tell her, it was almost an automatic response of, that's not true. None of that's true.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:55:19] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:55:20] And that was part of the transition for me. So for me it was okay, I get it. I'm changing the game here. Like, I'm changing the rules of our marriage because we entered this agreement. And just one quick side note, I mean, for anyone that's going through similar things. And therapy was immensely helpful because it began to help Brooke see things from a different point of view. She was raised in Utah, the Utah bubble. She didn't have a perspective, she didn't know anybody respectable that wasn't lds.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:55:50] And it helped me cope with my anxiety. So after our therapy, once I actually talked to people that related to me, my anxiety actually got worse. So that's when I first address the issue at hand that what I was doing was not helping the situation, that I needed to talk to somebody who understood me more. And I knew my friend down the street, Rachel, that she had gone through a very similar experience. Her husband left and she followed. She was the only one that I had known that had gone through the experience. So I text Rachel one day. I knew Josh was going to be out of town, so I figured this would be a good time for me and Rachel to have a one on one conversation. I did this because I was desperate. I had people specifically telling me not to go to her and talk to her. And I felt like at this point I didn't have a choice because it was either, it was either this or things were going to get really bad.

Josh Miller [00:56:51] So.

John Dehlin [00:56:52] And that's just, we've already kind of touched on it, but that's just another issue is that when people, you know, we've said in the past, and I got this quote from Thomas McConkey, A cult is a religion. Any institution that won't let you leave with your dignity intact. So in these communities, in these families, when somebody has genuine doubts and concerns, or if they just decide they don't believe it anymore, they're not disrespected and said, bless you, going your way, they're not only gossiped about, but they're. Everyone's warned not to go to them, and lies are smeared about them to the point where they're making everyone who's still a believer fear against getting the information. So it really does function like a cult in that way. Just like Scientology labels someone as a suppressive person and forbids its members to talk. Maybe it's not as formal, maybe we don't have a name for it, but we kind of do. It's apostate. You know, it's. It's. It's all sorts of things that we label, but it's a really insidious thing that we do in our culture, and it has to stop.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:57:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Yeah. So you talked to. So you talked to her anyway.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:58:02] Yeah, I invited Rachel over.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] Shout out to Rachel.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:58:06] Yeah, love you, Rach. She's not watching, but she will be tonight. She'll watch it tonight. Her husband's on board, though. Hi, guy. Anyways, so anyways, I invite Rachel over. Josh is coming in from a late flight later that night. So me and Rachel are talking. And me and Rachel's story is, like, very parallel. And I'm. Her story's resonating with me. And as she's talking to me, I can feel the tension and the anxiety release, like, immensely. And I'm starting to see things differently. And I'm. I'm feeling relieved. Huge amounts of relief. And then, sure enough, you know, like three hours later, we're still talking. And Rachel's just so sweet, and she's consoling me and just listening to me and giving me advice, and she understands me and she gets me. Nobody else could understand me. Nobody understood where I was coming from. And she did for the first time. And sure enough, before we know it, Josh gets home, and Rachel's still there. And, you know, Josh walks in, and then this becomes a third party conversation. And Josh. Me and Rachel are talking, but it kind of turns into like a Josh and Rachel conversation, and I'm just listening. And Josh has information about the church, and Rachel has information about the church, and they're kind of going back and forth, but the thing is, they're finishing each other's sentences. It's not like they've been studying together. It's not like they have been passing information along or they've had this conversation before. This is similar information they both had, and these were true facts about the church. And Josh had his epitome moment where he realized the church is true. And this was my moment. And this moment where everything had changed. I'm sitting here listening them talk back and forth. I'm hearing facts about the church that I've never heard in my life. I'm hearing them finish each other's sentences. And they're going on for probably about 45 minutes to an hour. And as they're talking about these things, everything starts to make sense. You have this wall that you build, and this wall has bricks, and each brick has a representation of a subject like blacks in the priesthood. And one is about the word of wisdom and, you know, then one's your relationships with your families. And I'm sitting here and I'm watching my wall crumble. I'm starting to realize the church is not true. And all these questions I've had my whole entire life that have built up, it's finally making sense. There's no answers to these questions because the church is not true. It was like Santa Claus. It was clear as daylight. And this was my epitome moment. And the only way I can describe this is I had an out of body experience. I felt like I was completely out of my body. And it was so surreal. In this moment, I had more clarity and more resignation that in this moment that I've ever had in my entire life, not only did it make sense in my heart, but it made sense in my mind. And if we're talking about a confirmation of the Spirit, this is the confirmation of the Spirit that stood out to me more prevalently than it's ever stood out to me in my entire life. And I come to realize that the church is not true. And I've had a lot of spiritual experiences, but when people say to me, I've had a profound spiritual experience, the church is not true, and I'm like, well, I've had a very profound spiritual experience or that the church is not true, they feel the church, they've had lots of profound experiences at church is true. But this is my experience. And this was an out of body experience that, I mean, I can't even begin. Begin to describe the realness of it because it resonated with me and it was like, I want to say on one of your podcasts somebody talked about, it's almost like if you had your testimony outside side and it was just a pile of jelly and you could poke it and you could prod it, and I think that that's kind of a fair way to explain it, but I literally just did not feel like I was in my body at this point in time.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] Anything else, Josh, you or either of you want to say before we start the part about the Spencer and the Maxwell Institute?

Josh Miller [01:03:32] No. I mean, no, I think, I think the point through the whole transition was, and it was over a year, years, was that it just took patience on both sides. I think it took we. I had to understand Brooke from where she was coming from and she eventually, you know, she on and kudos to Brooke. She, she took the leap of faith and was like, I'm going to believe in our marriage and I'm going to listen to what Josh has to say. She made the call to Rachel. I did. And so I think there were a few things that really helped us. One was an outside perspective from a therapist. Like, I chuckle when people tell me that they're going to go see their bishop for marriage counseling because their bishop is a plumber or whatever, he's not a licensed therapist. Go see someone who's going to give you a third party view that's non biased. It's not biased as it can be. And have patience and be true to yourself because at the end of the day, like someone mentioned, sitting on the fence is a terrible place to be and the longer you're there, the more depressed you're gonna get and then things will never get better in either direction.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] There's actually a study that's been going around the Internet. I haven't confirmed it, but it basically associates depression with staying in a religion you no longer believe in. Maybe we can get a link to that. I'm gonna go ahead and read what Victoria writes just as a way to kind of close this section. She writes, this is so sad. I also had a faith crisis and left the church recently. There have been times when I've never felt so alone. In this process, I lost my sense of meaning and I've also felt suicidal the whole time. I never drank alcohol, never had sex, didn't smoke, didn't take drugs, and I lived the Sabbath. I still live the same way even though I have now removed my records from the church. So the idea that people leave because they want to break the commandments is false. Even if people do change their lifestyle, it makes no difference to a person's worth or value. We are all expressions of God regardless of how we live. It is the content of our heart that is important. I still feel alone and I'm so thankful for this channel. I hope you both know that you are not alone and your courage brings strength to others. Thank you. I greatly appreciate your effort to help people who are suffering alone.

Josh Miller [01:05:50] Well said.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] That's from Victoria.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:53] John, can I just add one more thing, please? So, you know, like, the next morning, after my epitome moment, I wake up and I wanted to pinch myself because you're thinking at this point, oh, wow, the church isn't true. Is this really happening? Your whole life you've been indoctrinated. And along my post faith journey, I had discussed to myself and just kind of, to Victoria's point, depression. You think depression's bad before, it's bad now. And the core of what hurts the most about leaving the church is the simple fact that it's not true. Your wall is now completely torn down and you have to figure out our families forever. Is there life after death? It's the core of the issues that hurt the worst. And then, you know, it's the after effect of what you're going. I'm starting to realize at this point what my husband's had to go through on his own, that he's had to do this by himself and the pain that I inflicted upon him and the guilt that was placed on me for doing that. And then I had to. I felt ashamed, disgust at where I was at, that I was actually making the choice to be true to myself and leave the church. Ashamed, you know, that I would have to tell my family and break the news to my family that I had to be true to myself. And just like Tom Phillips says, integrity is what the church taught you, and integrity is what brings you away from the church.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] So, yeah. And so shout out to your neighbors who were there. Rachel, Rachel and Guy Kaziri, Rachel and Guy who are there to help you. Kudos to CES Letter.

Josh Miller [01:07:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] To those who support Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation.

Josh Miller [01:07:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] To the courageous people that got the essays out there, inside the church and outside, to the therapists everywhere who are willing to support, because these are all instrumental parts of the process.

Josh Miller [01:08:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:12] To your friend, your former missionary companion or friend. Yeah, friend, cousins, you know, brothers, anyone. I think that's a decent way to end. Speak up. If you don't speak up. If you don't speak out, you leave individuals, couples, families to suffer. Divorce, suicide, suicidality, fracturing of families. So speak out. Speak out on your Facebook walls, speak out on Twitter, Instagram, write emails, write letters. If you know better, if you know the truth about the church, then that doesn't mean you have to not believe it. Right? You can still believe the church is true, but speak up in your gospel doctrine class or in testimony meetings or at sacrament meeting, speak up about the truth and let everybody know what the truth is about the Church's history, its doctrine, its problems, its challenges? Because it will provide cover for so many people who are going to be suffering in silence anyway.

Josh Miller [01:09:12] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rocks is a featured single on Angela Soph's upcoming album Second Wind, inspired by her struggle with the faith journey out of Orthodox religion. You can find and follow her her on social media as Angela Sofband. That's S O F F E on Spotify or angelasof.com.

Josh Miller [01:10:07] So judge me cast me your stones I will lay them back at your feet Take my hand, let's walk we like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do I don't know why we all stand in a circle and point of finger or two Tell me how can you see what is buried beneath a mountain of smiles we're all thrown in the same blue water of the unknown so leave your rocks at home. The truth is not what it seems we are told to just be believing the story has never been told and we all need someone to listen to Older hearts is there beating with so much more than we see.

Reaching Out to Spencer Fluhman and the Maxwell Institute

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 879

Josh Miller [00:00:00] We like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. All right, so it is now time to turn our podcast to what I think many people who end up tuning in are going to be tuning in for. I think your story is epic and deserves. It's an important story of its own merits. But what's unique about the story is that at some point you guys decided to actually schedule a meeting with. With Spencer Fluman, Dr. Spencer Fluman, who's, I'm guessing, the executive director of the Maxwell Institute. Can you guys talk about how that came about?

Josh Miller [00:01:31] Yeah, that's more on Brooke's side. She.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:01:33] So I guess upon leaving the church, you tell, you know, people, your loved ones, everyone wants to answer questions. People want to go out and try to save you and bring you back to the fold. And I think where me and Josh, I mean, Josh introduced me to your podcast and the first one I watched was Lance and Nikki Miles, and I

John Dehlin [00:02:00] think Lance tuned in at one point, so.

Josh Miller [00:02:01] Oh, good. Well, thank you, Lance.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:02:03] Yeah. And it spoke volumes to me on a sense that, you know, this is when we decided to stop going to church. We brought our. We. Josh was a primary teacher and I just decided, you know, there was various times I decided to jump in with him and just teach. And we went to primary one day and they were teaching about coffee and how it's bad for you. And I looked over at my kids and I saw them all starry eyed and they're looking at the front and they're listening to this. And I'm thinking kind of back to Lance and Nikki's point with his father, who was gay, how his father taught him to hate his father. If that makes sense for the viewers out there, if just go listen to it. It'll make all the sense in the world. I'm teaching my children at some point and in some way to frown upon my lifestyle or me as an individual by teaching them that coffee's bad, by bringing them here when, you know, go Google it. Coffee is not bad. For you, it has so many great benefits. And so I'm indoctrinating them in some way. But it wasn't just coffee stands. It was so many other issues. And that's when we decided, for me, it resonated with me at that moment and I decided, I cannot come back to church.

Josh Miller [00:03:30] Yeah, she started telling people. She told Allie, which was on. Yeah, right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:03:36] Because, yeah, my cousin. So I told Ali, got to together for dinner with my two twin cousins, and Ali said, I have this friend. And actually this friend was my friend from high school. I was really good friends with her sister. And this girl reaches out to me on Facebook and you get to a point where you talk to everyone and nobody can answer your questions. So. And by this time, I'm obsessed with all the information out there with Mormon history. You can't pull me away from it. So I really.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Someone who doesn't like to read.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:04:09] Yes. I'm very educated at this point when it comes to Mormon doctrine, you know, and so Lenae texts or she messages me and she says to me, hey, I have a good friend or a professor. Um, oh, wait, no, she says to me, hey, can we get together for lunch or dinner? Or I could even come to your house and we can talk about some of the issues you're having. And I just said, you know, I. In all due respect, I appreciate you wanting to help. If you want to get together for lunch, dinner, that would be great, but you can't really answer my question. I'm pretty confident that you can't answer the questions I have.

Josh Miller [00:04:54] She was very gung ho, very orthodox, and she's. She was determined to answer Brooke's questions. And over multiple long messages, back and forth. Anyways, it eventually resulted to, hey, I know Spencer at byu. He helped me with a lot of my questions. Would you guys like to meet with them? And we were. And of course we jumped at the opportunity because we. We had made the choice that we didn't. That we were. That mentally we were done. But for me it was like, okay, here is someone who is highly educated. He's written his dissertation on 19th century anti Mormon literature. He's the best I'm ever going to be able to get to. To have an intelligent conversation on these topics and not hear Josh, you need to search, ponder and pray. Right. Or you don't have the spirit with you. That's why you can't answer these questions. You know, those generic answers that we hear. I wanted to meet with someone that is highly educated. He's an historian. How does he wrap his brain around these questions? So for me, it was like this was a golden opportunity. And. And so we jumped at it. And Brooke reached out to him, and he was more than gracious and willing to meet with us.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:05:56] And at this point, you know, it doesn't matter how much history you read up on or facts of the church you read up on, there's always that hope that the church is still true. I mean, we still wish to this day that we could just turn back time and just say, oh, just kidding. It's true.

Josh Miller [00:06:15] I know. I want to be proven wrong right Deep down. I mean, I'm serious. But I want somebody to say, josh, you're thinking about it wrong. And then. Because that means my whole life, everything I've done to this point and all the other promises are true, right? That you're promised eternal families and everything else. But, yeah, again, one last hope. And for our families and for everything, we thought we better give it a shot and hear what he has to say.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:06:38] Yeah. So I reach out to Spencer, and Spencer gets back with me, and he says, I would love to meet with you. And I said, okay, that's great. And we decide to meet December 2nd, upon our meeting.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] 2017.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:06:53] 2017.

Josh Miller [00:06:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:06:55] And I'm thinking, okay, that gives me three weeks to prepare. And I'm really grateful that I've done as much research as I had at this point, because I know three weeks is not a lot of time, but here I go, gung ho, taking notes, preparing.

Josh Miller [00:07:10] And I think it's important to know that we weren't preparing in any way to be argumentative. We were respectful of Spencer, that he was taking time out of his day to meet with us. And then by no way, we were like, we want to go in there combative. We just want to hear what he has to say. And that was really our point of view in the way we approached the meeting was what are the most. Because we didn't know if we had 10 minutes with him or three hours. We didn't know. And so we just thought, well, what are the top topics of mine that really matter?

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Did you guys have any idea what the Maxwell Institute was and who Spencer Fuhlman was when you heard about his name?

Josh Miller [00:07:45] I never. I never heard his name until I reached. I knew the Nelly Maxwell. I knew the institute, but I didn't know that he was research it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:07:52] We realized this is a big deal.

Josh Miller [00:07:53] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] Why did it seem like a big deal?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:07:55] Because he's a historian. He's the head of the History department.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] I don't know that he's. Is he? Well, he's the head of the Maxwell Institute.

Josh Miller [00:08:02] He head of the Maxwell Institute, but he's an historian and he's written his dissertation and it's a book on Amazon.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] Had you guys learned about what did you think about the Maxwell Institute and what it was supposed to represent? How did you think of the Maxwell Institute?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:08:16] Well, of course, you know, it's stationed right there in byu, so I mean it kind of speaks for itself, right?

Josh Miller [00:08:26] Yeah. And we viewed, you know, based on his background and we just knew the institute was a place for religious study

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:08:32] and he'd written a book on anti

Josh Miller [00:08:34] Mormon literature and we knew that he had for a stint, I don't know how much, but he had studied under Bushman for a bit. And so we just kind of knew that maybe he was more on the liberal side.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] And we mentioned this in the introduction. But for those who skipped to this part and skipped the beginning, you know, the Maxwell Institute grew out of the farms, which was the foundation for ancient research and Mormonism. But it did all that archaeological stuff, the Book of Abraham stuff, all trying to prove the church is true. Like FARMS had this rich tradition of just sort of bare knuckles of sharp elbowed apologetics where they were going to draw together whatever evidence, however questionable, to prove the church was true. And they were going to malign and demean anyone who would dare question or doubt the church was true, whether it's Fawn Brody or Simon Southerton or, you know, whoever. Brett Metcalf, September 6th. It was sort of, on the one hand, use questionable science people of questionable reputation academically or questionable arguments to defend the church and just vicious maligning of anyone who dares question the church. And so eventually the church decided to bring that into byu. So it was converted from FARMS to the Maxwell Institute. And Daniel Peterson still ran that for a long time until he was forced out for, you know, for all his tactics that sort of wore thin not only on so many of us, but also on the church leaders, you know, Elder Holland and others. And you know, I was involved in a lot of that towards the end of 2012 where I brought to light to Elder Holland and Marlon Jensen and others. You know, how awful Greg Smith and Louis Midgley and Daniel Peterson were treating people, how many people were losing their faith because of bad apologetics, how unchristlike they were acting, writing hundred page hit jobs on people, spying on people, turning in information to people's bishops and bishoprics. And some of that stuff was also done by people at fairmormon. Other people at fairmormon weren't involved with that kind of stuff, but that's the heritage of Maxwell Institute. But to their credit, they got rid of Daniel Peterson, and for a couple years they searched for a replacement, and eventually they settled on Spencer Fluman, who I've only heard amazing, wonderful things about from pretty much everyone. And I just want to say at the outset that a few very close, dear friends of mine found out that we were going to be talking about Spencer Flumen. And it was really interesting to see how. How concerned people are that we would even bring them up, because, number one, he's so loved, beloved, and number two, he sits at a very, according to them, a precarious position where, on the one hand, he was chosen and selected and he has support. But on the other hand, there are always people like Midgley, like Peterson, like others who want to tear him down and bring things back to the way they were. And so their concern and even talking about Spencer Fluman was, you might hurt him, you might damage him, you might hurt his cause. And so we actually had a pretty lengthy discussion over multiple days. Brooke and Josh and I, you know, how much do we talk about? How much do we not talk about? How much do we share? How much do we not share? And will we hurt Spencer and all, you know, and so can you guys address that? Like, yeah, we know how, you know, what are your motives and why are we even mentioning his name? Because we even talked about not mentioning his name.

Josh Miller [00:12:21] Yeah, yeah. For me, I think one, this. The reason. And again, talking about Spencer and the reason we had so many conversations about it is because the general feel is that we. That I've only met this guy once, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. I think he's incredibly intelligent. His tone was one that I've never heard from, from any authoritative figure in the church. He was extremely knowledgeable, and I think he's a breath of fresh air for people that want to stay in the church or are just struggling with these things. Right. What many people do is they try to dismiss you with your concerns, and they just simply throw that, hey, none of these issues are real. All of these different excuses that you typically run into, Spencer took head on. And so for me, like you mentioned, and I'm sure everyone that's met him, an incredible person, whether your stance is in or out of the church. And I thought it was important because we want to talk about some things that helped us and can help people with either side that they're on and a point of view that you don't hear very often. So, again, our intent is not to ever talk. Hill Spencer. We think he's an incredible person and we just want to get some of that information out to people. And by bringing his name in, I think people, you know, a common issue is that people say, well, you know, that's hearsay, or, you know, someone who cares who told them that, that doesn't matter. But it's somebody that the church obviously holds in high regard. He runs the Milton Neal A. Maxwell Institute. And so he's a credible person and his point of view matters for people that are in and outside of the church.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Anything you want to add, Brooke?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:14:11] Yeah, just as far as apologetics are concerned, Spencer definitely is in the field of liberal apologetics. I wish that there were more people like him in the church, and I wish there were more apologists like him. In fact, I wish there were general authorities. Like, I wish he was in the gas. I wished they could see things from his perspective and hear him out more or even just maybe just be able to teach from a pulpit with his perspective. He, as far as Spencer's concerned, he saves lives every day. And this is a huge problem in the church. I was telling you previously, John, how, you know, just in the past years, the teen suicide for LBTQ community has rised to 40%. And there's people like Spencer who reach out to these people or these children and he tells them, you're not crazy. These are real issues. And the problem is on us. And the problem lies on us. And we are so sorry. And if we all acknowledged that there was a problem here, but the church can't do that. The church can't say there's a problem here. We're wrong. They will never say they're wrong.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] But you could do all this and just say, I met with some unspecified person at byu. It's some unspecified institution, so why actually mention Spencer's name?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:15:47] Because it's a legitimate source and it comes from somebody of a very high authority.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] So it speaks to our need for authority. Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:15:57] And he's a very credible source.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] And credibility.

Josh Miller [00:15:59] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] And it can't be dismissed as, you know.

Josh Miller [00:16:03] Yeah. And I think these conversations are happening behind curtains. And the problem is, is that to your point, awareness of this narrative just isn't out there. Like people, people don't hear this side of the story. They don't hear this. This tone from general authorities. They hear the Lord's commandments. And if you don't follow the Lord's commandments, then repent because you're damned to hell. You know, that's the. That's the feed. It's. And, And. And everyone says these issues aren't issues. And you're like, these are issues. These are real issues. And to hear somebody in that position say, yeah, these are issues.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] Yeah. And I will just say we did invite Spencer to come on Mormon Stories podcast. I think because he, you know, he. In his position, he's just not able to come on Mormon Stories. I think he'd get in trouble. Whether or not he personally would agree to Mormon Stories or not. He could not agree. So. All right, so go ahead.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:02] Do you want me to talk about how Dave came into the picture? Because my brother.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] If it's relevant.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] If you think the listeners want to know.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:11] No, I guess not.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Okay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:13] Not really.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] But your brother Dave was there.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:15] He was there. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] So it was the three of you with Spencer.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:18] Yeah. And I think, you know, to the point that he did. My brother went out to find the lost sheep, which was a very Christ like approach. And in a position of where your loved ones leave the church, you would hopefully take his approach and try and go save them and understand them.

John Dehlin [00:17:39] Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:17:40] And yet he. Because he did that, it led him to some serious questions and answers, and that's why he was also on the podcast with us.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] And we actually have some interesting information from my friend Heath Hendrickson. Heath writes that Spencer's Heath's wife's cousin, and Spencer's a great guy from a great family. Spencer's father was Boyd K. Packer's personal secretary for decades. So that's super interesting. Jerry Lee writes, I wish there were more Spencer Flumans in the church. And then Heath writes after that, Spencer's father was in Area 70. So Spencer, Spencer's dad had a lot of authority.

Josh Miller [00:18:20] He's in it. Yeah.

The Meeting with Spencer Fluhman

John Dehlin [00:18:21] All right, so how do you guys want to talk about the meeting? And I will just say that I've. I will just say that I have reviewed all the sort of records and documentation that you guys have made available about this. About this meeting. So I won't be learning about what was said at this meeting for a first time. And so don't be surprised if I speak up and say, didn't he say this? Didn't he say, say that? Because we've talked extensively about what. What was said and you've shared with me all the information you have about the meeting. So I'm just kind of setting that up so I can guide you through questions or. Or if you want, you guys can kind of lead us through what the meeting was like. Okay, whatever you prefer.

Josh Miller [00:19:07] Yeah, yeah, I'll start there, I guess. I mean, for me. So we didn't know what to expect, right? We had. We didn't know Spencer personally. We hadn't heard anything about him. We had no understanding of who he was, how he thought. So we just went in there and first time in the building, and he greeted us, was very friendly, was coming from another meeting, went right into his office, and basically he said, you know, hey, really happy to meet you guys. He was very friendly, open, and honest. We just started with some basic conversation, and then we really went into, you know, hey, and kind of started talking about our transition story and were some of the questions, concerns that we were having. And he made it very clear from the onset that he was going to let us know where he was and what he thought about how he felt about the church.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] Please have her whisper.

Josh Miller [00:20:05] And. Yeah, so. So anyways, we opened up with just some basic questions, and he goes, look, I'm not going to tiptoe around any of the issues. You're going to know exactly where I am on all of them. I'm very open with my students. I'm very open. For 20 years, I've written a book on this stuff. I know this stuff in and out, and I'm going to face the issues head on. And for me, I was like, this is great. This is a perfect opportunity. He's going to be honest with us. He's not going to say, josh, you know, have you read your scriptures? Every day for 20 minutes. Which was. I didn't know if that's what the approach he was going to take or not, but he was like, look, you know, and then he just sat back and he would let us talk and we would go into an issue, and then he would give us our approach or his approach, his thought on it. And again, after all the research that we've done on MormonThink on fair Mormon CS letter, Mormon stories podcast, this was a perspective that we had not heard. Like, it was a unique point of view. And he and I just, you know, we promised we wouldn't share the contents in a certain way, so we're not going to do that, but we can kind of paraphrase some of the.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Yeah, you did. I just want to be clear. You didn't. Did you promise that you would never talk about what was said in the meeting?

Josh Miller [00:21:24] No, no, no, no, we didn't. No, no, but we, but we.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] So you're free to talk about what happened in the meeting.

Josh Miller [00:21:29] Sure, sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] And that's what we're going to do today.

Josh Miller [00:21:31] Absolutely.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:21:32] We just, we told them we wouldn't expose the recording. So that we decided, yeah, we want

Josh Miller [00:21:38] to be, we want to be conscious of, of, of Spencer's ask and we want to make sure that all parties are okay with, with what we chat about. And Spencer was very open throughout the entire conversation. Look, these are things I've been teaching for years. I teach these in from my stake center. I teach these in the pulpit. I teach these in young men's. I teach these things in, you know, at byu. So everyone knows Spencer's point of view that's engaged with him. And he was very. And you know, his tone is, look, there are issues in the church. There are things not in the church. I would say there are concerns that are valid in the history of church that we don't typically talk about. And so when you guys come to me with these concerns, I think, yeah, they're real concerns. You know, let me tell you how I feel about these. Let's talk about anything you want to talk about. And it was never, he was never condescending. He was. He always validated our concerns and he was respectful of our position, which is a rarity.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] And people are asking, since you mentioned it, if their conversation recorded. Yes, there was a recording.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:22:48] Yes, there was.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] Yes, he gave permission for there to be a recording, but he did not give permission for the recording to be shared.

Josh Miller [00:22:54] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] So we're not sharing the recording.

Josh Miller [00:22:56] Yep, yep. Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:22:57] And I think that that speaks, I mean, going back to the integrity. Yes, we could have shared the recording and there wouldn't have been really. I mean, there would have been persecution of all as far as people and their opinions and whatnot. But for me, I felt like there's a lot here that we can to help those in light that are going through similar issues. And in releasing the recording, we felt it would be going against our better judgment. And it's like the integrity issue. We feel like for us, it's important we hold to the integrity that we have because that's what led us away from the church. But we choose to stay true to that integrity and not divulge that information and due to respect to Spencer and whatnot. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Yep, so, so thanks for clarifying that. And so how do you want to talk about the actual substance? Do you want me to guide you through kind of an outline or, or, you know.

Josh Miller [00:24:03] Yeah, I mean, I mean, I guess I could speak to general tone or if there's no.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] No, no, let me just. Let me guide you through.

Josh Miller [00:24:09] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] So I've. I've reviewed all the materials you guys have, and these are just some questions or points that I've come away with and. Or things that I was impressed with, and then you guys can just comment about, you know, which one. So let's talk about each topic individually. Is that okay?

Josh Miller [00:24:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] So what were your memories about his acknowledgments of there being a problem about the old narrative and how it should be dealt with in the church?

Josh Miller [00:24:40] I felt like he was, you know, it was almost like a counselor, like,

John Dehlin [00:24:47] okay, acknowledge the old narrative is inadequate.

Josh Miller [00:24:50] He would. He said, yeah, it was similar to Bushman. Right. He's like, yeah, the old narrative doesn't stand up. It just doesn't.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] So he admitted that.

Josh Miller [00:24:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] What was that like for you?

Josh Miller [00:24:59] We were just. I was just like a deer in headlights. I was like, wow, I can't believe. You know. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for making us feel like we're not crazy.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:25:07] Yeah. Because for the first time, everyone you talk to treats you like you're crazy. And I think that part of the reason why we even went to Spencer in the first place. Place. Because, you know, everyone. It's like you're being. People are casting stones at you. Like, you know, you've. You're making compromise decisions and you're making excuses and you'd rather just believe the church isn't true. In which Josh was saying a while ago, if that were the case, then if the church was true and you wanted to be sinful and go do sinful things, why wouldn't you just go sin and then repent? Anyways, for us, it doesn't come down to stuff like that. I mean. I mean, we might be horrible people anyways, but.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] But it was neat that he acknowledged. It was neat that he acknowledged that, right?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:25:58] No, yeah, it was great. We loved the fact that he was refreshing.

Josh Miller [00:26:00] We felt he was very transparent.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:26:02] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:26:02] And wasn't. Yeah. Very open.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] What about the idea of shying away versus confronting questions and problems? What do you remember him saying about that?

Josh Miller [00:26:11] He said he was going to attack him straight on. He wasn't going to shy away from any question that we had.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] What about what the church's policy should be?

Josh Miller [00:26:19] I'm trying to remember if we mentioned any of that specifically. I think that he. If I remember right, he felt like the church was trying to be more open with essays. He felt like we're moving in that direction. The church is wanting to move in that direction to be more open and be an open book. In fact, now that I remember, he said that there's going to be more journals released, there's going to be more and more coming out, and so you're going to see the church take a direction of openness and not concealing information.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:26:47] But he also did say, you know, when we addressed the issue that we were having questions, he said, yeah, this stuff is hard, isn't it? And he says it's shattering. And we're like, yes, thank you. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it's almost like he knew.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Oh, he'd been told.

Josh Miller [00:27:04] Well, he knows firsthand. He's a historian. He knows that. I mean, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Yeah. And some of the things that struck me were that he seemed like he was saying that we can't shy away from these issues.

Josh Miller [00:27:15] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] That we need to read out of the best books. Right. That we need to seek out knowledge and understanding. So he was sort of taking this position of being bold in your learning, not timid.

Josh Miller [00:27:27] Absolutely. Yeah. And that was again, refreshing. Right? Was, no, don't stick to just the Book of Mormon and read it every day. In fact, he cited Brigham Young, I believe, and he said, look, you've got to learn in what he's saying, look, it's Brigham Young. Brigham Young's like the most, you know, iron fisted prophet that we have. But he was the one that said, you've got to learn from the best books. We don't want blind followers. Which seems very.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:27:51] Opposite of the dominant narrative that you hear is that you like the point her brother said about the prophet and the stance on the gay and lesbian community. The prophet said it. What else is there to say?

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Right. And I remember him referencing Joseph Smith, quote, that truth cuts its own way.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:28:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] That we shouldn't be scared of anything. That's true. Right, right. And I even got that he acknowledged that the truth church has not been forthright in the past.

Josh Miller [00:28:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] That the church has not been this way.

Josh Miller [00:28:24] The general sense was the church hasn't been this way, but we're making changes to be more open.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:28:29] Because I think we all know here that it still is not. And we're still trying to change things as far as that's concerned. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] And Brooke, you, you basically, you know, you, you kind of spoke up and said, well, this is great, but that's not what I'm getting from the church and that's not what my family's getting from the church.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:28:47] Yeah. And basically at that point, I said, you know, I want to believe these things so bad, and this is the reason why we're coming to you. But the things that we've heard and the things that we've looked into and the information that we have, it's been so hard for us because it's led us to believe that there is no possible way that Joseph Smith is a true prophet. And there is no possible way that there's these. The history of the church is all what it claims to be concerning the facts that we've learned. And then I said, because we know the truth now, we don't want to lie to our kids, and we cannot teach our kids a lie. It's pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] And he agreed that you shouldn't. Yeah, yeah. He also. How did he respond, as you recall, to the superficial response of search, ponder and pray when you have these doubts?

Josh Miller [00:29:55] He said, I've been fighting that for years.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Fighting what?

Josh Miller [00:29:57] That concept that you just have to search, ponder and pray.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] Because why?

Josh Miller [00:30:01] Because you should go out and search the best that you can and find out for yourself. You know, you can't stick to read the Book of Mormon, ponder, pray. Right. Because everyone does that. And they're still faced with these complex questions. They don't go away. And so you have to face them head on. You have to do as much research as you can and figure out where you stand.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] There's a part where you guys expressed frustration that so much of the stuff you had learned had been referred to as anti Mormon lies by friends and family. Do you remember what his response was to that?

Josh Miller [00:30:37] If I remember right, he was.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] He called them facts.

Josh Miller [00:30:42] Yeah, yeah. He said these are facts.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:30:44] Validated them.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] What many others refer to as anti Mormon lies are actually facts.

Josh Miller [00:30:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, the guy wrote the book on it, right? So he's like, you can go read my book. They're all in my book. And it was refreshing to hear him acknowledge it. And I think for me personally, that's the only path. And this is why we all love Spencer. Anyone that's met him is because anyone that's intelligent, that has done their research, it's the only narrative that could possibly work for someone who wants to stay in the church. Because you can't just turn a blind eye to these issues and we'll talk about some of these that we get into. But you can't just say, nope, that's not an issue, when it's obvious that it was an issue. It's documented, you know, as Something that happened in history. It was a fact. It's not some person's changing history. It's real things that happened. And Spencer's approach is, okay, I understand that happened. How am I going to deal with it? Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] One of our listeners wants to know if I listened to the recording to the. And, yes, I have. So I'll be honest about that. Okay, so did you get a. How did you get a sense for his empathy for people who are having a faith crisis?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:32:04] I think his heart was on the. Like, on the line for them. It's almost like he was right there with him. And Spencer has a unique gift, as far as that's concerned. He. He has a really good way of sympathizing with the LGBT community. And I think that that's why so many people have been sent to him, especially because he's been gifted with a different outlook that not most general authorities. And a lot of general authorities, from what I understand, they send people with questions to people like Spencer or to Spencer in general, because he has a very unique outlook. And I think that if we were to stay in the church, which, unfortunately, that's not a choice for us, but if we were to stay in the church, we would have to go with Spencer's perspective on the church stance.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] Right. It's a good model for those who want to stay.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:33:09] Yeah. There's no other way to look at the facts and the history of the church. Let it sit well with you and say that that's true, because it's simply not.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] So ignoring it isn't a possibility. Denying it isn't a possibility. You like his model of embracing it?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:33:24] Oh, for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] I also mentioned that he mentioned that he often has received criticism or that he has to constantly fight a daily battle for transparency and that there aren't. Not all church leaders agree, he said, about how to handle these issues.

Josh Miller [00:33:45] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:33:46] It's a delicate situation, even for him, even within the church.

Josh Miller [00:33:50] Yeah. And that seems like a common theme. Listen to multiple podcasts of yours where they met with, you know, general authorities or whatever. They're like, there's a debate about where we stand in the church with this issue or that issue. You know, it's definitely not a unified front. I mean. I mean, but on the back end, they're all. They don't know what to do. I mean, my feeling was they're debating on all kinds of stuff. They're debating how the Book of Mormon was actually translated. They're debating on stuff that you're like, nope, this is how it was done. And then history comes out with Seer Stone and the hat, top hat, and you're like, well, what about that?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:34:24] Well, then you have to figure out, how does that play into the truth of things? How can we legitimize this to make it play in our favor or make it have some logical sense and add that to the narrative, to where it can make sense and resonate with the members of the church.

Josh Miller [00:34:47] Yeah. So, I mean, I look at it, you know, just boiling it down. I look at it like. Just like any corporation would be, right. They're all figuring out how they put the marketing front up and how they paint the picture of the organization, the brand, and that's no different in the church.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] And let's. Going through this, let's focus for the next little bit on what Spencer said and what your reactions to it were. And then at the end, we'll do a commentary on the experience overall. Is that all right?

Josh Miller [00:35:13] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] With one thing that I noted also was a real sense of humility. He said something in the beginning about his ability to answer all your questions. You remember what that was?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:35:29] I want to say that he said, I will try to answer all your

John Dehlin [00:35:32] questions, but I won't be able to answer them all. Yes, there was a humility there, right? Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:35:37] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. This guy was incredible to listen to the position he's in, and there's no doubt that he's highly intelligent. I mean, the guy's very sharp. But that he came across that way. He didn't come to me and like, guys, I know everything. It wasn't that way at all. And it was a conversation. Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:35:54] And he. I mean, he says. He said at one point, I'm no expert in no way. I'm no expert, but just know that you guys are not alone in this. So that to me was like, gosh, he. You know, that he empathizes with these people, that he's seen a lot of this, and this is how he's come to terms with it, because I think he has found that there is no other way to come to terms with it.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] Yeah. I also loved that he made a point early on that a true pastor, a true shepherd in the church, won't shy away from any member with concerns. And so you've got this clear sense that he took it as a very deep pastoral responsibility, not just for himself, but for bishops, stake presidents, general authorities, church leaders to. To really take this seriously.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:36:50] But you don't see that, John, you know it's like the, I mean, we loved our bishop upon leaving, but when we, we finally got into a room, this is something we didn't talk about in our transition story, but when we finally sat down with our bishop in the room, we asked him, I, I asked him, I said, did you know that Brigham Young had a distillery here in Salt Lake? And he looked at me and he said, no, I had no idea. And then I asked him a couple more questions about history, and he had no idea. And you know what? I guarantee he didn't go home and research them. I guarantee he just swept them under the rug and continued to proceed. And I think that people of higher authorities need to know these things, whether it be clothes, classes, or workshops that they provide for bishops or stake presidents or mission presidents or general authorities. These issues need to be addressed and everyone needs to be aware of them, you know?

John Dehlin [00:37:52] Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's talk about some of the main topics that were discussed. The first one was the temple and the temple ceremony and the Masonic lodge sort of, you know, influences. Do you guys remember what he said about that? Anything you want to share?

Discussing the Temple, Book of Mormon, and Inspired Eclecticism

Josh Miller [00:38:12] Yeah, because that was a big topic for me was why? Okay, well, one, it's obvious that there are components of the temple ceremony that came from Masonic rituals. It's blatant. So for most people that say, no, there's no correlation, it's ridiculous. Right. And so the only thing you can say is, well, why are there similarities? And, you know, how do you, how do you take that into account? And, and also the follow up question was, if this is a, if these were sacred ordinances given to us, why, why do they change over time? Why was the blood oath removed?

John Dehlin [00:38:57] Yeah, and just sort of what I remember from it, basically his argument was that Joseph was thinking about an endowment for a long time. Right. But Protestantism had been deprived of ritual like Catholicism. Right. And so he's got this revelation about an endowment that's waiting to happen, but maybe he doesn't have the delivery vehicle for how to deliver the endowment. Because how would a Protestant, you know, Mormon come up with a ritual when there weren't a lot of rituals? And so he sort of describes it

Josh Miller [00:39:40] as

John Dehlin [00:39:42] expressing the revelations of God sort of with the tools of the time. And so the temple, so the Masonic ritual becomes the delivery vehicle. And this is not new. This is something Greg Kearney said in one of the very, very early issues of Mormon of Mormon Stories podcast. But it's different, I guess, when someone

Josh Miller [00:40:01] like that and you'll, and you'll feel a common theme across the whole thing was Joseph Smith took these things that he had exposure to and use them, as you mentioned, a vehicle to get out this. This revelation that he was getting my sense from Spencer. And I wish he was here and he could be here, and I wish that we could share some of this, because he puts it better than I do. But my interpretation of what he was saying is Joseph Smith would have these revelatory spouts where he was just receiving, you know, revelation from God, and then he would just try and do his best to get it out in whatever form he could piece it together. And the temple ceremony came out of this spiritual revelation that there should be some form of physical, you know, ceremony. And that's why there are similarities, because he obviously drew from what he knew

John Dehlin [00:40:54] from the Freemasons, and that conversation then evolved into a conversation about plagiarism, because he's sort of using this notion that he returns to of inspired eclecticism. It's just like Joseph's exposed to this. Well, I'll throw that in the gospel. And, oh, here's an idea of Lamanites. I'll throw that in. Here's the Masonic Lodge. I'll throw that in.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:14] Well, and not one single. He come to maybe consider that maybe he got this from the Book of Hebrews or from the late war or. I mean, like.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Well, Spencer did.

Josh Miller [00:41:23] Well, yeah, he does.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] He acknowledges that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:41:25] Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like he acknowledges it, but at the same time, the church would never acknowledge that. And so I think that I commend him that he acknowledges it, because, I mean, you talk to anybody else and they'll tell you different. Um, but that's the thing that's so crazy is because people wonder, how did Joseph Smith come up with the Book of Mormon at the age of 14? Well, he didn't come up with the age of 14. He was 20. And, I mean, he was surrounded by it. I mean, what was it Oliver Cowdery's pastor, that wrote View of the Hebrews?

John Dehlin [00:42:04] So he would have been. Joseph would have been thinking, you know, it would have been common for people to be speculating about the Native Americans and where they came from, and they knew about the lost tribes of Israel. Maybe somehow Native Americans were part of the lost tribe. This was the discussion of the day that everyone was marinating. They were seeing Indian mounds around. This is all what Grant Palmer's book talks about, an insider's view of Mormon origins. It talks about how, you know, it would have been weird If a Book of Mormon hadn't have emerged during this time because so many people were speculating and wondering, and view of the Hebrews gives a theory about how, you know, a group of people come from Israel and settle America. And so it's on his mind, it's on Oliver Cowdery's mind, it's on Joseph's mind. So, you know, it makes sense for why a book like that. And then if you add the book of Napoleon and the late war and the style that so many of the books that Joseph Smith was exposed to, the style that those books were written with, the King James English, then it really makes sense. So what Spencer returns to is this idea instead of plagiarism, which was what you asked him about, he calls it inspired eclecticism. And it's basically just, instead of it being false, that Joseph just ripped off the temple ceremony, he just ripped off the Book of Mormon. Spenser's sort of trying to convey this notion of he's like a jazz musician, where he's taken inspiration from different places. And maybe it's inspiration here, but maybe it's masonry there. And maybe it's a book that he got over here. Maybe it's the King James version of something here. And then he's just kind of doing this artistic. Now, how was that striking you? When he was sort of making that case?

Josh Miller [00:43:47] For me, it was kind of like he had to do some real mental gymnastics that's to make it work. So, you know, I think we were talking about this before, but, you know, for me, it's like Santa Claus. It's like your kids start getting older, smarter, and they start asking questions about it, and they're like, hey, dad, how can he get across and deliver presents to all the billions of children in one night? And you start to reach deep, right? You start to come out with, well, his sled is magic, and he has thousands of elves that help him. And, you know, there's different time zones. And, you know, that's what I felt like. That's. You know, me personally, I think for someone that's in the church, and if you believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, then you can take that and say, okay, that's how he. That was his revelatory process.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:44:38] And you can make.

Josh Miller [00:44:38] For me, that was somebody that was out. I was like, this is. This is some real. This is some real twisting and turning and ideology, and you're replacing it. And it's not what I've heard my whole life. And so it was hard for me

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:44:51] to and you can make anything work to your favor if you really want to. If, I mean, if, if you're really wanting to make something work, you can really twist and bend things and try to incorporate things here and there. And I feel like even Joseph Smith kind of did that. He worked and he looked for ways to create, you know, all these rituals and these, this, the Book of Mormon, he kind of pieced together from different books here and there. And it's not like he just did this overnight. He had time, Joseph Smith had time to, you know, write the Book of Mormon. And he, he was raised in kind of like a mythical time period where there he was surrounded by all this and, and religion was huge. And it's really kind of what, I mean, they didn't have TV back in the days. They had really no source of entertainment and he was a treasure seeker. And so I think that like, considering the fact that they were surrounded by this and this is what they were, their whole, like everyone around them was basically invested in this. And so I think that for, yeah, it's mental gymnastics in a sense that you can, Joseph Smith pieced together all these things and you can, if you want, you can just believe it or else you can try and figure out how it really did happen. If we're being honest here. And you know, to Spencer, to what Spencer said, if you really want to try and do mind bending, you can try and figure out a way that maybe Joseph Smith did, you know, had, he did have Revelation and he did come up with all these revelations.

Josh Miller [00:46:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:47] So you mentioned Book of Mormon and we can move to Book of Mormon. And quickly the conversation got again on plagiarism. So he used this term inspired eclecticism for the Book of Mormon, which is, I have to admit, is very different from translation. Like we are all, even now, the church is teaching that the Book of Mormon, you know, there was a stone, there was a hat. Okay, so we have the old version, which is plates and the Urim and Thummim and he's trans, you know, he sees in the Urim and Thummim what is being, you know, what the new words are. And then he's dictating it. So that's the first version we get. Then we get the second version, which is the current sort of semi official version, depending on where you hear it, which is that there was a face with the stone in the hat and he's still reading, you know, dictating from what's in the hat. Right. And the plates aren't anywhere near and so that's a problem, but at least it's still sort of a translation. It's just instead of Joseph doing the translating, the rock is doing the translating, but the plates aren't there. But what Spencer's talking about is something even different. He talks about Joseph pulling, he talks about inspired eclecticism. And then you guys get into a conversation about plagiarism and he brings up Harold Bloom. Do you want to talk about what you remember about that?

Josh Miller [00:48:06] Is that the language he used and the way, the tone that he wrote,

John Dehlin [00:48:10] the religious genius, he basically, yeah, he.

Josh Miller [00:48:12] Basically the guy from Yale, he related Joseph. The only explanation for this is that he's a creative genius. Right. That he. A religious genius, sorry, religious genius that, you know, he was using these complex sentences and literary sense to put these things together. So he felt like Joseph was receiving revelation. And one of the things that I thought was interesting that he said was that Joseph wasn't learned in the way. In the language of the Book of Mormon. He didn't speak in the language of the Book of Mormon. Right. So he's saying if he created, if Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, then it would be in his same tongue, in the way that he would speak day to day. And he didn't teach in that tone. He didn't speak in that tone. So that was his point, was, look, it's, you know, you've got to equate it to something. And that's the best that the scholars can come up with is that he's some religious genius.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Which is weird because if it's a translation, his genius shouldn't come into it. Right, right. If it's a translation, he's got the plates, he's got the old language, the reformed Egyptian, and now he's translating it

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:49:23] into English in his language.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] But it can be, but the gift and power of God, like God can, you know. So I mean, where does his genius. You know, one question that comes out is what does his genius matter? His religious genius matter? You could say he's powerful and can access God's power. But why does Joseph's genius need to play in to a translation process?

Josh Miller [00:49:45] Well, I almost wonder if he was using that as the, as the anti Mormon argument. Right? Like, well, it's made up. And then Harold saying, well, yeah, it's religious genius. Like he's not, it's not like he's, you know, he's just saying that's the only plausible reason because it's all fake and. Right. And there's obvious plagiarism throughout it. He, you know, that was one thing that was candid, too, is that Spencer was like, yeah, I think he copied straight out of certain, you know, Isaiah for certain things.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] It was like, yeah, why? Why rewrite Isaiah? Why retranslate Isaiah? When he got to the point where he knew he had to translate Isaiah, he probably just pulled the King James version out and just as a shortcut. Right. So he was.

Josh Miller [00:50:27] Yeah. And so, again, this is why I have so much respect for this guy, because he's not like, I don't know, you know, the process was he received revelation. I don't know why there were mistakes in there. He's like, yeah, he just copied it. Well, yeah, you know, and you just don't hear that from people.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Probably copy that. He would have said.

Josh Miller [00:50:41] Right. Probably copied it. But he. But, you know, in fact, we were just shocked that he said that. And then we're like, there's obvious components that he's just pulling from there. Just plagiarized from.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:50:51] Well, and then he says the standards of plagiarism in the 19th century was a little sloppy, which he admitted that. Which I thought was.

Josh Miller [00:51:00] But I think the place that he got to was right. Like, yeah, again, the common theme was Joseph is a prophet, he's a revelator. He gets spiritual inspiration, and he uses whatever he has around him to. To put that together. And that was Isaiah. That was Peter. That was inspirations from the New Testament. That was. Yeah, that was every component he'd been exposed to that he was.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] Sermons that he had. You know, that's part of Grant Palmer's thesis. You know, who was excommunicated. Right. Part of Grant Palmer's thesis was that Joseph was pulling from sort of sermons that he had likely had heard that he was pulling from the Old Testament, the New Testament. So much of the Third Nephi is Jesus. You know what I mean? If you actually factor in Joseph's own story. Right. I mean, these were some of the. In the Masonic, you know, rumors that were going around during the time. And so on the one hand, we're excommunicating Graham Palmer for trying to come up with a theory of how Joseph was using his eclecticism to create the Book of Mormon. And yet Spencer Fluman is now telling us all that Joseph is heavily influenced by whatever sources are around him, and he's heading the Maxwell Institute. So, like, which is it? Are you excommunicated for that or are you now honored and supported and paid for saying things like that? It sends a real mixed message. That the Church has to account for either stop excommunicating Fawn Brody and Grant Palmer and Michael Quinn and John de Lane and Jeremy Runels. Right. Don't excommunicate us all, but then have a leader of the Maxwell Institute that's basically saying all the exact same things, but just in private. Right?

Josh Miller [00:52:44] Yeah, but. And right. And I think they're the same issues, same questions, same explanations. You know, I think he found. He's found a place that makes him comfortable with all of this. And there's lots of things that he gets out into, like.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] We'll get there.

Josh Miller [00:52:59] Okay. Okay. We can. Hold on that.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] What were you going to talk about? Which. Which thing?

Josh Miller [00:53:02] Oh, I was just going to say how he. After studying all the. All of the contents from Brigham Young journal Discourse.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] Okay, we'll get there.

Josh Miller [00:53:09] We'll get all that.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] We're gonna go more in.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:53:11] I like how he says this one inspired eclecticism.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] Inspired eclecticism, yes.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:53:16] Thank you. I like how he says that because that kind of just defines it all, really. I mean, pulls from here, pulls from here, pulls from here. And voila, we got a finished product.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] And I was really struck. He calls the Book of Mormon Joseph's grandest revelation. And to call it a revelation is. It's what we're doing with the Book of Abraham, Right? It's not a. We have all been told. Joseph himself said, I'm a translator. I translate. I use the artifacts to translate. There's an old language, and we're translating to a new language. He's calling it a translation. We're all taught it's a translation. We all believe it's a translation. Now we're changing the narrative to call it a revelation. So now the Book of Mormon is not a translation, It's a revelation.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:54:00] And, you know, like the Seer Stone, I was something that's crossed my mind several times. If we have this Seer Stone in our use, why can't we use it still to this day? Why can't our prophets and apostles put it to use if it's. If we use it as a tool for revelation, and Joseph Smith was a prophet and he used it for revelation, Then let's pull it out. Let's try it. Let's see how it works.

Josh Miller [00:54:23] We did talk about that. I mean, that was one of the things we talked about. Why? What was the last revelation we received?

John Dehlin [00:54:30] Yeah, okay. We'll get there. Let's stay on the Book of Mormon for a second. DNA. What do you remember him saying about DNA?

Josh Miller [00:54:36] So, for me, out of almost anything that stuck out to me in the entire meeting. And maybe this is. Maybe this is, again, you know, watching a lot of podcasts or being familiar with a lot of different types of apologetics, something that's common, but this notion that we have no idea who the Lamanites are, just for me was like. For me, it was like a nail in a common.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] He said, scholars agree on even what continent the Book of Mor. Faithful scholars don't even agree on what continent the Book of Mormon happened, you know, let alone.

Josh Miller [00:55:09] The question was, do we know who the Lamanites are? And the answer was no. And I thought this is a book that was okay. Revelation by or translation from Joseph Smith, the prophet. It was to bring the Lamanites back to the fold. And we don't know who they are. Yes. My whole life I've been told they were the Native Americans. And now the DNA, it's only the narrative. It's only changed now. The DNA is proven and given no window for that.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] This is so significant. And I interviewed Brett Metcalfe, who knew Mark Hoffman, you know, who. Hot tub with Mark Hoffman, who knows the Book of Abraham better than anything you would think he would say. The Book of Abraham is the smoking gun. Brent Metcalf, as I recall, said in my interview with him that one of the biggest problems with Mormonism is that the Book of Mormon was expressly written for the Lamanites. And now in 2018, we're admitting we don't know who they are at all. And he admits, and Spencer admits this, that Native American DNA comes from where?

Josh Miller [00:56:12] Asia.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] Central Asia. Yeah, he says it. He says Central Asia. All the DNA we can find, they

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:56:17] cross the land bridge. And then the crazy thing is there is 6,000 miles of where the Book of Mormon claims that these people travel across the Americas, yet we have no evidence that they even existed. And that's 6,000 miles of coverage that we can't even account for. And when it comes to the Hill Cumorah. Oh, well, we can't prove that they're on the Hill Cumor that we know of. So maybe there's another Hill Cumorah somewhere else that we know of that. That this took place. So now we're finding an excuse for the fact that we can't validate that there's. That the Hill Cumorah is where certain events happen and existed. So maybe it happened over at this hill Cumorah. I mean, it's just little things like that, that as far as the DNA was concerned, and then you know, they talk about the Lamanites, go find the Lamanites. And then we talk about the Polynesians and how the Polynesians don't even. They. They believe that their heritage, they're the lost heritage, and yet they don't even know who they are. The Polynesians think that they are there people. They're the ones that are supposed to be brought back to the fold. And so, you know, and it's just like in some of your past podcasts, we've talked about how they don't sing Book of Mormon stories anymore in primary. So it's just little things like that when it comes to the DNA, that it just doesn't make sense.

Josh Miller [00:58:00] He, his and his just. So people are curious how he responded. If I remember right, he said that evidence, no evidence, is not negative evidence. Right. He's saying that there's still a chance it can be found.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] Yeah. So he admits there's no DNA evidence. He admits there's no real archaeological evidence, but he's quick to say that the absence of evidence isn't negative evidence.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:58:21] And then he didn't know Thomas Ferguson.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] Yeah, that was a surprise.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:58:24] Yeah, that was a surprise to me, too.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Maybe he just forgot. But at the time he said, who's Thomas Ferguson? And you had to explain it to him.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:58:32] Yeah. It was an archaeologist of 17 years hired by BYU to go out and find evidence, yet he couldn't find any evidence for the Church. And he just basically said, there's lost hope here. We can't find any evidence and the Church is going to have to find and. Or, I mean, and this is the thing, because I don't know if everyone knows this, but Spencer Fluman worked under Richard Bushman, and Richard Bushman claimed also that the church simply has just got to find a new narrative. They can't base the Church solely on the findings of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. And if it's going, if they're going to continue that way, it's just simply not going to work. They've got to find a new narrative.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Yeah, he. And there was this talk about. And Spence, this is common. Spencer basically said, it's not the Book of Mormon. We've misled each other. So he talked about how the Book of Mormon doesn't claim that only descendants of Lehi and the Jaredites were the only people that's ever populated. He basically said the Book of Mormon text allows for other populations to have also been introduced into the land. And so, yes, we can't find them. But, you know, he found solace in the fact that the Book of Mormon text itself didn't explicitly preclude other populations from being there. Do you remember that?

Josh Miller [01:00:09] Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that was, again, perplexing to me because I've never been taught my entire life that there were other populations that we knew about. It was the Nephites and the Lamanites. Right. And they were the ones that inherited land.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] And there's millions of people fighting and all these battles.

Josh Miller [01:00:24] Yes. You know, I think.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] And also, people have shown me scriptures and I don't have them at hand where it says the land is going to be protected and the Lord won't let you know the Book of Mormon. The Lord won't let anyone come to the land who the Lord doesn't approve of. And so there is a lot of language in there that basically says the Lord is going to keep this pure for these people.

Josh Miller [01:00:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] So the story just becomes really, at some point, doesn't the story become a little bit unbelievable?

Josh Miller [01:00:50] So, yeah, science. So science changes the narrative of the church is a common thing right now, again, to Spencer's credit, and this is why I really like him, and I think people like him is he doesn't come out and say, okay, guys, yeah, I don't know about the DNA evidence stuff. You know, here's, here's. You know, the truth is the Native Americans are Lamanites or Central, you know, Central Americans. We know that they're in this region. He comes out and says, yeah, we don't know. I mean, he's so honest and transparent about it that he wasn't hiding anything and he gave his perspective, and I think is somebody that wants to believe. That's the only way that you can believe is to accept these flaws, these contradictions with science, with archeology, and find a place that the Book of Mormon makes sense for you. And that's what I think he did, is he's like, well, this is how I understand it. Right. This is how I think about it. And so that was refreshing because what happens is when you have these conversations with people, friends, family, whoever, they say, well, so what? Who cares about the DNA evidence? Right? We just haven't found it yet. It's going to happen.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:01:57] And the best thing about that is just have faith.

Josh Miller [01:01:59] Just have faith.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:02:00] You get to choose to have faith.

Josh Miller [01:02:02] Yeah. Not once, not once in our entire meeting did he look and say to us, josh, just have faith.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:02:07] Yeah. And I think, especially a person of his authority, it's hard to bring yourself to a level of Just saying, I don't know or yeah, you're right. And on multiple levels and on various subjects, Spencer did that.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] He would say, it's a mystery. We don't know. He would say, we don't know. We don't know. It's a mystery.

Josh Miller [01:02:28] That's a sign of strength, not weakness. When you say that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:02:30] Right, yeah. On the DNA, he said, no, we don't know. And then, you know, when it came to the other issue, he said, you know what, you're right. What, what's the other.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] We were just talking about, we'll get to it. I'll cover other things. He also, and then he also did go to that argument that it's such a mystery, It's a miracle. 500 pages were written between 55 and 70 days. So he basically fell back ultimately on that argument that it couldn't have been written in that short of amount of

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:01] time if it was plagiarized. It could have. Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] That's how you felt when he said that?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:05] Oh, for sure, yeah. Like I feel like anybody, I mean, can plagiarize anything in that amount of time.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] And he wasn't. And some people are going to say, well, it's not plagiarism. If you look at view of the Hebrews and Book of Mormon, they're very different. So do you mean plagiarism or do you mean something else?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:21] I mean, I would say plagiarism.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] I mean the Bible, the biblical passages

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:26] are clearly, as far as Isaiah is concerned, I mean, even 35. Yeah. As Spencer will admit, he says flat out in our interview, I think it

John Dehlin [01:03:35] was plagiarism, Isaiah and 35.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:38] Yeah, he does. He says, I think he plagiarized it. That's something that's really hard to swallow. And I can only imagine for someone in Spencer's place to be able to come to terms with that Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:03:49] I don't think he used the term.

Josh Miller [01:03:50] He didn't say plagiarized.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] He didn't say the Book of Mormon was plagiarized.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:03:52] No, not the Book of Mormon.

Josh Miller [01:03:54] He said he pulled from it.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] He pulled from it, right?

Josh Miller [01:03:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] Yeah, yeah. So just to try to be accurate.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:04:00] And so I think that even coming from his point of view, that would be really hard to come to terms with.

Josh Miller [01:04:06] One interesting thing he said about the Book of Mormon was even though it was his grandest revelation, he never really taught from it, which was new to me. And something I never even. That's something I didn't even think about. But I'm like if this was because you think about today's. Everyone says it's the Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon's true or not, the whole religion depends on the Book of Mormon. The fact that he didn't even teach it very often is.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] Or refer to it perplexing to me.

Josh Miller [01:04:30] Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:04:31] At this point in time. This is when he. Throughout the whole interview. This is when he gives me probably the most reassuring evidence or reassurance throughout. Reassuring answer throughout the whole interview when I say there is no DNA evidence to back up the legitimacy. Legitimacy of the Book of Mormon. Then he says to me, but there is. But we have not, not found DNA.

Josh Miller [01:05:01] Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:02] And for me, I'm like, oh, I guess. I mean that's a. That's a good perspective.

Josh Miller [01:05:07] Yeah. But it was like the DNA podcast that we listened to on your session. He was like, yeah, sure, I don't remember who it was, but he said, yeah, that's like, yeah, sure, that could happen. But it's got as much chance of somebody throwing a pizza through a wall and coming out hole on the other side. Right. The fact that we haven't found DNA evidence. Yeah. Is. I mean, it's. There's this tiny. There's always a chance for something. There's a chance I'm going to win the lottery a few times in my life. Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] But it's.

Josh Miller [01:05:29] It's pretty rare. It's gonna.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] For you. That's damning.

Josh Miller [01:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] Damning lack of evidence.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:33] And if it. And if it were to happen, we would be so excited.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Oh, the church would be the first to.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:39] Oh, and they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:41] But I mean, with the whole issue with Thomas Ferguson, I mean, it's been kind of dead silent because he didn't find anything. So they don't want to acknowledge the fact that he didn't find anything. So it's just quiet.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] Maybe that's why he's never heard of it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:05:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] Okay. Book of Abraham. What do you guys. Anything quickly you want to mention about how he tried to help with.

Josh Miller [01:06:01] He didn't talk about it. That was the one issue he didn't really kind of talk about. He did in a sense, but he kind of was like, look, there's a guy down the hall, he's from Harvard,

John Dehlin [01:06:09] that John Gee from Yale. I'm sorry, from Yale said there's a really smart guy down the hall who kind of knows about all this. He did acknowledge that in the Book of Abraham that Joseph grabbed from the Bible and copied it into the Book of Abraham. That's where he said, why retranslate? But again, is it translation or not? Like, if it's not a translation, then he shouldn't be. There wouldn't be a need to retranslate. He'd be using inspired eclecticism. So it's almost like we're going to use any argument we can when it fits, even if it's not all as consistent. Consistent in other. In other places. And I'm not trying to criticize him, but, you know.

Josh Miller [01:06:50] Well, again.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] And he basically described it again, as Joseph riffing or jazz.

Josh Miller [01:06:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] Right. So the book of Abraham is jazz.

Josh Miller [01:06:59] And it's the only argument that I think has a chance to stand up over time because it's not really provable or. Right. It's kind of one of those things. It's a theory. It's an ideology of how Joseph Smith operated. And you can subscribe to it or not.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] And if, you know, Joseph, there was an Alphabet and he was trying to. You could see him working out the Egyptian characters in English and filling in the facsimile. It wasn't. And he wasn't. He didn't tell people, I'm channeling. He said, it's written by the hand of Abraham. And he didn't say, I'm channeling it. You know, he said, I'm translating. I'm a prophet, I'm a seer, I'm a revelator. And I'm translating this. And so we're basically rewriting the story. Story to create kind of plausible deniability.

Josh Miller [01:07:41] Right? Totally.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:07:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Yeah. That's how I felt. And they kept saying, we don't know. We don't know. Right. Which is true.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:07:49] Yeah, we don't know.

Josh Miller [01:07:50] Yeah. Instead of him coming up with something crazy, I mean, he just flat out said, we don't know. You know, And I think again, to him, to the way he came back to it, and we'll talk about at the end is how he. In his mind.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Yeah, we'll talk about everything. So we talked about the temple again. Then he talked. Then for me, what the most important conversation was was the conversation about what it means to be a prophet, what revelation means. And, you know, I'll just say what some of my recollections were. That he said that these eruptions of revelation are very rare, they're exceptionally rare, that, yes, Joseph had them, but since Joseph, we really haven't had many revelations, and that Brigham Young wasn't big on canonization. So he. So he basically sort of after DNC 138 or whatever. There's 136. Whatever it was, he didn't want anything else canonized. And so we saw the church move from expecting revelations from the prophets to Brigham Young feeling like that old revelatory pattern was sort of the lower law, that the higher law is that the brethren speak to the saints, and the saints are plugged into the Spirit, and they know whether or not when the brethren speak, it's from God. And so that Brigham Young saw as the higher form of revelation, not this sort of, you know, canonization of Scripture.

Josh Miller [01:09:29] And it's interesting that that ends with Joseph Smith, right? Because it's obvious that he was, in my personal opinion, a creative genius. Like, the guy could just come up with whatever he wanted to. And so it's convenient that once he's gone, that that process is now gone too, Right? It was the individual. It was not the process, in my mind, that ended this revelatory experience. It was Joseph's no longer here to create these stories or create this scripture. You know, and the interesting thing to me, too, was that he said about how you tell if a prophet is speaking of God or as a man, was to rely on the Spirit itself. So if you felt the spirit when the prophet was speaking, then that was confirmation that was coming from God. If he didn't feel his spirit, then he was speaking as a man. And I said, well, I have a real problem. I have a problem with that, because the prophet is supposed to be the end all, be all. He's the highest authority in the church. He's the man that communes with God. And for some reason, you know, Elder Oaks and I, we did not agree on the gay and lesbian stance in the church. I mean, that's a hard line for me. Either he's right and I'm wrong, or I'm right and he's wrong. And this is a man that preaches, he prays daily, he's giving general talks, he's touring the world speaking in churches. And here I am. And I feel strongly about that. Right. So I had a hard time with that explanation. And Spencer knows it's radical, but he knows that that's. And he was quoting a member of the First Presidency that said that. That you use the same spirit is your guide. That's how you. That's how you decide if you're. If you're speaking as a prophet.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:11:14] So what bothers me so much about that is, you know, you have a prophet, and sometimes they're wrong, and then you. If you have just as much authority or you can receive just as much relation revelation as a prophet can. Then why are so many teens dying based on stances that we have with the church? Why do we have to stay firm on these so called revelations? And who are we to decide what's right and wrong? You know, and I just. That doesn't sit well with me.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] Yeah. The stakes are so super high. So he talks about revelations being replaced by councils. He talks about Mormonism being both authoritarian and autocratic, but also democratic. He acknowledges that in the Journal of Discourses, you just get a few minutes into it and you know, you know that a ton of that isn't doctrine or revelation, right?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:12:11] Yes. And then he talks about. We talk about Brigham Young and how he says the men will live on the moon and then how. Yeah, yeah. And how a Jew's blood will be changed as he converts to. To Mormonism, his blood type changes. Just kind of.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] And just acknowledgement that that's not doctrine, Right?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:12:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] And you know, and he Quotes D and C68, which is like God, but he acknowledges that D&C 68 itself says that God's prophets don't always speak scripturally, that they only speak when they're moved upon by the Holy Ghost. It's only scripture. So he was able to say that it's script, scriptural, that when a prophet speaks, it's not necessarily doctrine. He quotes Joseph Smith when he said that a prophet's only a prophet when he's speaking as such. He mentions J. Reuben Clark where he basically says that it's only prophecy when they're moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And he turns that back to the Saints as being responsible. And he even quotes Brigham Young who says if the Saints blindly follow a prophet, it's an example of reckless confidence. Right. And so that. And his view is that that could thwart the purpose of God. So this is something that I'll just notice that Dan Witherspoon has tuned in. He's saying that he's super angry about this interview. We'll talk about Dan, we'll talk about some of your concerns. Also, Jerry Lee has expressed concerns about the breach of confidentiality and whether it'll make someone like Spencer less likely in the future to be able to help people who are struggling. Well, let's talk about that at the end. But I'm just going to acknowledge that those things have been shared and we'll address them all. We tried to at the beginning, but we'll address them again. But he's basically saying that it's Authoritative and autocratic, but also democratic. That it's actually a beautiful thing, that it's messy, that God wants it this way, that God would thwart our free agency. If he told us all the revelations and everything was clear and he spoke to the prophets and the prophets just wrote him down. So he's basically saying this idea that yes, the prophets and individuals will have the spiritual experience, but putting it to words is the hard part. And so he's acknowledging that there's a messiness in the process between God and man that not only does he acknowledge as being messy for him, it's faith affirming and exciting. And he calls it like the opportunity, the challenge, that it's inspiring for it to be this way and that God wants it this way.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:14:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] How did you guys feel about that?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:14:57] If that's the case, then it goes against everything I've been taught, because I've always been taught. If you're looking for revelation and you're looking for an answer for something, we're taught to pray about it. And we go in prayer and in fasting and we ask our Heavenly Father, and if we get an answer that is confusion or that is something that we just don't understand, or we. There's chaotic feelings that kind of are interlaced and we don't understand it, then

John Dehlin [01:15:31] most likely that's a stupor of thought, right?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:15:34] Yes. You're not. You're told not to go there, not to touch that, and there's your answer. If you receive an answer, it's supposed to be. There's supposed to be clarity, and you're supposed to have a good feeling about it. To me, that goes against everything we've been taught.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] So how about. How about for you?

Josh Miller [01:15:52] Nothing to add.

John Dehlin [01:15:53] Yeah, but what about this idea that God doesn't want us to be passive sheep, that. That prophets aren't ventriloquist dummies, that God intends there to be a wrestle, that language is a prison, that prophets heed knowledge, that prophets can be messed up, that they're normal folks, that in the Bible, prophets make mistakes, that they're just grasping for meaning and understanding the best they can, that we need to have. You know, if we can have forgiveness for the prophets, they can have forgiveness for us. And that we can all just sort of realize that we're fellow travelers, that we all make mistakes, and that we're all in this together trying to figure out what's true. Why isn't that inspiring or compelling for you?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:16:37] I think because there are bigger issues here at hand. That we're talking about. We're talking about blacks in the priesthood. We're talking about lesbian gays. We're talking about tithing. We're talking about changing our whole lifestyle based on a belief. This is the way we're. You're raising your kids. You're devoting your time and your energy to this. You. They wouldn't call it a corporation. I would see it as a corporation. Organization, I guess, is what they would call it more. But when you're investing so much into a religion and these are, you know, and people are. People's lives are on the line here. So, I mean, for me, it's just much bigger than small issues. And if you're receiving revelation off of. On bigger issues, then I think that more thought needs to go into them, and they shouldn't be contradicting, because I think, you know, you look at blacks in the priesthood, and they weren't okay with blacks in the priesthood until socially, they felt pressured to accept blacks in the priesthood when it was socially acceptable. So.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] Yeah, that brings up. Go ahead, Josh. What were you gonna say?

Josh Miller [01:17:52] Oh, I was just gonna say it was abundantly clear. Like, none of the answers gave me comfort to know. I didn't. To me, they weren't answers. They were points of view. They weren't like, you know, here's question and answer. It was. Here's how I think about it. And the other issue that I have is refreshing in Spencer's point of view. View is it's not adopted by the general authorities. So I think that, you know, if you. If this was a narrative coming from the pulpit, it would be a little different, but I feel like it's not. It's. The dominant narrative of the quorum of the 12 is still very much stuck in the old ways.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] Yeah, I was inspired and just shocked that he was willing to admit that peer pressure, cultural pressure influences revelation, because there was that whole conversation about. He admits that the Brethren are often 30 years behind the time. And it was kind of a tender moment in the interview, because he's basically saying that he's had to struggle with the Brethren being so wrong or so late on so many of these issues, not just ahead of the time, which is kind of what you expect from prophet seers and revelators, but sometimes on civil rights, on women, on blacks, on LGBT people. He acknowledges that oftentimes prophets are 30 years behind the times. And he said he used the word devastated to describe kind of how that was for him.

Josh Miller [01:19:20] Yeah, I think it's because of all the work he does with LGBTQ community is. I think he sees the wreckage, and I think desperately he wants, you know, some. Again, my point of view, not that he said this in the interview, but my point, what my take from it was that he. His heart goes out to people that are suffering, and he wants. He wants things to get better. And I think that, you know, to get to that, to his point, he was like, I. My belief is that that's the way God works in revelation, is that it has to come through constant question, question, question before you get an answer. But.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] And then it's messy and it. There's peer pressure and there's bottoms up and tops down, tops down, all kinds

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:20:00] of factors, and there's so many conflicting messages, you know, and it's. And sometimes it's like, what do you believe? What do you not believe?

John Dehlin [01:20:08] Yeah.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:20:09] And especially as a member, if you, You. You can take what you. I mean, I, I personally don't think it should be that way. If you're a member, you either believe it all or you just don't believe any. Any of it. But, I mean, you talk to most people and they'll say, oh, yeah, I don't believe that in the church, or I don't agree with that. And that's not how I think. But I still have a testimony that church is true. And I just think, no, because they're. These are revel, revelators. They. They're prophets, apostles. They receive revelation. So this is the word of God, and it's either right or. Or it's wrong.

Reflecting on the Meeting and Its Aftermath

John Dehlin [01:20:47] Yeah, just. And this is something I think about a lot. When I was growing up, I was taught that the Mormon, the Gospel, the LDS Gospel, was plain and it was precious. Plain meaning God speaks to man through prophets. God gives us scripture and we read the scriptures and we know what to do. Precious because it's true. And if we follow it, it'll lead to happiness and joy. And for me, when I hear neo apologists like Spencer making everything messy and everything complicated, and the brethren are flawed and the Scriptures are flawed, and it's all messy and it's revelation, but it's flawed. And we're all just fumbling along side by side, doing our best. At some point, the Gospel is no longer plain. It's extremely complex, and it's no longer precious because you can never know what you can rely on or not. And I think that's the trade off. Yes, we're going to have Bushman and Givens and Mason and Flumen and Wotherspoon. And others showing us this beautiful sort of utopian idea of all of us being shoulder to shoulder, side by side, struggling together to figure out what is inspiration, what isn't. And we can talk about later the efficacy of that model. But what I just think it's fair for us to acknowledge is that this is not a plain and precious gospel. This is a confusing and a messy gospel, that when we bring in. Brooke, your point that LGBT youth are killing themselves, that you were driven to the point of suicide, that marriages are being split up over this, people are divorcing, entire families are being torn apart. And I see that every month that I do workshops and retreats, people come to me desperate. They're scared to even admit to their family that they're at a workshop or retreat that John Dehlin is at. They're petrified. No photos. No one can know that I'm here. There's so much fear, there's so much judgment, there's so much marginalization, and. And Spencer's trying to fight that, to his credit. But this, you know, I guess we're just all observing that this narrative is leaving so many people in the lurch. So when Jerrolee says, hey, guys, it's great that you want to share this, but you're going to make it less likely that Spencer or others are going to be willing and able to talk to people. And we talked about this before we actually did this interview. Why did you feel strongly enough, and this is asking you to repeat yourself, because we've already given this answer, but share it again?

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:23:32] Well, I think, you know, not very many people are going to get the chance to speak with Spencer, and Spencer can sit down with.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Especially now.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:23:41] Yeah, yeah, but this is the thing. People can hear this podcast and people can refer to this podcast for their own answers. We can be a voice for Spencer. And, I mean, it's unfortunate because, like, I wish there were more people out there, like Spencer, of higher authority. You don't find people that you come across that have done the research and know the things that they know and. Or that he knows that can resonate with you and sit well with you. And for me, it's brought me to a better light, the things that he had to offer. You know, when you leave the church, you run into so many angry people, and they have a right to be bitter and angry and mad and sad, and they have a right to express those emotions. But Spencer taught me that you can. You can point that anger into a better light. And rather than. Rather than living with that anger. It's. For instance, I did write Spencer and I. I said, spencer, you. Before I came to you, I saw temples, and they made me angry, and they. They stood for me. When I looked at a temple, it stood for me as betrayal. And it hurt to look at a temple. But after I went to you and after we talked, I could look at a temple sitting on the hillside, and I could see it now for what it had taught me and the person that it's made me become or the standards that it gave me. And I don't necessarily have to look at it in a negative light. And I think that there's so many things about the church that we can look at in a negative light upon leaving. But Spencer helped me to look at things in a new light, and I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:25:44] But what about the risk? What about specifically that concern that people like Spencer won't feel comfortable sharing these things now that we've talked openly about your meeting with Spencer?

Josh Miller [01:25:56] Well, I would say one. And I know that some people are upset about it, but the reason that we came to the conclusion that this was okay and in fact, and people don't know, but we had multiple emails with Spencer back and forth before we did this. It wasn't like we went behind his back. He knew we were doing this podcast and he was gracious and great about it all along. And that's, again, even more respect that I have for him. And all throughout our meeting with him, it wasn't. The tone was never, this is top secret stuff, guys. It was, this is stuff I teach everyone. Everyone knows where I stand.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] He says, I've been teaching this stuff for 20 years.

Josh Miller [01:26:32] I've been teaching this stuff for 20 years. This isn't like some secret combination meeting that we're having in the back in the background. I felt like we. This. Our point in this is that we went, as everybody does, you go through a range of emotions. And Brooks mentioned we got to a real low point, real negative point about the church. Spencer helped us understand people that want to stay in the church. Intelligent people, people that are educated people that understand the issues and they want to stay in it because they have a happy, fulfilled life in the church.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] So you're sharing this for them, for

Josh Miller [01:27:09] people that are struggling and want to stay. And I'm sharing it for people that also are frustrated by getting the same answer from the general authorities or bishops or stake presidents that you just need to search, ponder, and pray that there's a different narrative out there that are at the higher epsilons of the church that eventually we hope will break through because we believe that the ones that are suffering, it's a better path. It's a better narrative. It's a better way of looking at things and understanding both sides. And if. And if we can be a funnel for that, hopefully some type of gateway to facilitate those conversations, the better.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] But what if, and I think people are making this argument, what if talking about this delays the progress? It makes the brethren angry, it makes them punish Spencer. It makes them retrench. And what if it actually slows the progress that we all want to see?

Josh Miller [01:27:59] That'd be really unfortunate. But the question is, you could run through 100 what if scenarios, and it goes back to do you want to sit on the fence or do you want to be a voice for truth? And we came down to the fact that we felt that this was going to help people, people that were struggling, and we felt the better. Yeah. And again and again, the point was, how do we make sure all parties are aware of what's going on, and then we're not crossing any boundaries. So if we felt that any of this was inappropriate, then we wouldn't be doing it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:28:27] We. Okay, Spencer, before we came on, we talked with him back and forth, and we respected his decision and we wouldn't do anything that we thought would cross the boundaries to hurt him. And we wanted to paint him in a. In a good light. We. I mean, we don't want to. It's not like we were bringing our game faces and we were wanting to bash on him because really, what's to bash on? There's nothing to bash on. Spencer is a great person. But I think, you know, there's.

John Dehlin [01:28:58] But what if. What if he's in a. What if he's in a politically sensitive situation where he's got Daniel Peterson and Louis Midgley and Greg Smith, Smith and others trying to take him down and other detractors. What if us mentioning his name and bringing these things up makes it so he might get in trouble or lose power or influence in the church.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:29:19] Well, I think that that's very unfortunate. And I think that if something like that were to happen, that just goes to show that there are serious problems in the church.

John Dehlin [01:29:27] You're saying that's not on us. That's on the church.

Josh Miller [01:29:29] That shows true colors on the brethren. In my opinion, if. If they're going to out some. Somebody that's a voice of reason and comfort and love and everything that you believe in the gospel and want to believe in the gospel comes through in Spencer, then you're throwing your true colors as a religion then, then you're not the religion that I want to be part of or most people want to be part of. And so I think if you, if you're really going to out Spencer, then you're out Spencer, in my opinion is the shred of. He's the shredded use the shred of hope that the new church has as it evolves over time. And if you silence that voice or voices like his, then you're dooming the church to failure.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:30:08] This is another thing you have to consider. What percentage of the world is LDS? It's like 001%. Right. So if they're sending a message, if they decide that this politically they want to make a statement in the religious world and fire Spencer, then they're speaking volumes to, you know, the whole, pretty much the whole world.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] I just have to warn everyone that Facebook only allows for a four hour stream. So this stream is about to end. So we are going to stop this stream and we're going to start up a new stream to kind of finish this conversation. So we apologize that it's about to drop, but join us in just a few seconds for our final moments together talking about this issue. I'm really sorry. It said 55 seconds were left.

Brooke Bonham Miller [01:30:58] Nope, totally fine.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] All right, so thanks everyone for joining us and join us right back for the final part of this episode. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rocks is a featured single on Angela Soph's upcoming album Second Wind. Inspired by her struggle with the faith journey out of orthodox religion. You can find and follow her on social media as Angela Sofbam. That's S o F F E on Spotify or angelasoaf.com.

Josh Miller [01:31:58] Cast me your stones I will lay them back at your feet Take my hand land let's walk we like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do I don't know why we all stand in a circle and point a finger or two Tell me how how can you see what is buried beneath a mountain of smiles we're all thrown in the same blue water of the unknown so leave your rocks at home. Let your truth is not what it seems we are told to just be believing the story has never been told and we all need someone to listen to hold. So much more than we see.

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 880

John Dehlin [00:00:00] We like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Foreign

John Dehlin [00:00:59] It's March 7, 2018. I'm John Dehlin. I'm here with Brooke Bonham Miller and Josh Miller. We're here talking about their faith crisis, how it led to severe stress in their marriage, how it led to Brooke not wanting to live anymore, and how, as a way of processing their crisis, they went to speak with Dr. Spencer Fluman of the Maxwell Institute, and we've covered most of their time with Spencer. We've got a little bit more to cover. And Brooke, we kind of cut you off, so can we jump back to you and have you share what you were sharing? Anything else you want to say to wrap up?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:01:36] So I was just saying if this information that we're disclosing is detrimental to Spencer Fluman's career in any way, shape or form, if they decide that they want to cut him off, I think that that is them sending. I mean, I was saying how only.001% of the world is LDS, so if you're trying to strengthen your numbers in the church, this is going to go directly against that. It's not going. You're sending a message here and putting a bad taste in the mouth of people like me and people that don't know much about the church, people that find out about stuff like this, it's not going. It's going to deter them away from the church. In my mindset, it's not going to do the church any favors.

Josh Miller [00:02:27] Yeah, I think the old apologetics of you know, you're wrong, search, ponder, and pray aren't going to hold up. I mean, as the younger generation continues to grow throughout the church, you're going to have to have voices like Spencer's for reason, and I think that he's the best avenue for that. And I think a lot of people that went through faith transitions or even are questioning or early on in the process and can meet with someone like Spencer, it may give them a different perspective because otherwise you're faced with black and white facts, right? Facts that happen in history, problems with the doctrine in the church that there are no answers for. And so I just hope that, again, in our sharing these things, our understanding and always has been, that this shouldn't be a shock to anyone that knows Spencer or the way he teaches. He openly teaches these things in all of his meetings, his lessons, and even in his local ward and stake. So I don't think these things are shocking. Our hope was to take some of what we learned and give it to a broader audience.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Let me read some of the comments that we have. Spencer writes, it seems to me that mentioning Spencer's name is a good thing because it adds credibility to hear that a prominent voice in the LDS community validates concerns that so many have. It allows people to finally be honest with themselves, that having doubts is perfectly normal and okay. Jerry Lee writes. Brooke Miller, you said we okayed this with Spencer. Are you saying he gave you permission? Can you please clarify whether Spencer actually gave permission or did you just make him aware that you were going public on this? I do think there's a big difference.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:04:16] So when we talked to him, we let him know specifically that we were going on Mormon Stories podcast. We invited him to come with us and he declined. He never express, expressed any. Anything against going on it. So if that's what you're asking, he never came out and said, no, I don't want you to go on there. Please don't go on there.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] I guess she's wondering if you asked his permission to come on Mormon Stories and to talk about what we talked about.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:04:45] I don't. I don't know if I really. I don't know if I needed his permission, to be honest. It's my transition story and I would like to tell it as it is. So, I mean, do I need his permission?

Josh Miller [00:04:57] I think in the tone was from Spencer was Brooke. You know, Josh, I wish you guys the best. Really enjoyed meeting with you. Would love to meet with you again and, you know, you guys share your story how you guys see fit. It's just Mormon Stories isn't a. Isn't a forum that, you know, makes sense for me, you know, and I think that I can certainly respect that position. So to your point, I don't think it was ever implied or felt like we needed to ask permission.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:05:26] I think Spencer's a very communicative person. So I think that if he had a problem with us going on there, he would have said, please do not go on there. He never said that.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] He did give Some constraints, though.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:05:37] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:05:37] As far as sharing the recording.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] So what did he. What were those?

Josh Miller [00:05:40] Yeah, he asked that we. And we made this clear, too. He asked that we not share to the broad audience the recording.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Share what?

Josh Miller [00:05:45] The recording.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] The audio recording in the transcript. Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:05:48] Yeah. So we didn't.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:05:51] Yeah. So we just took some notes and brought our notes on to the. To what we wanted to. Yeah. What we took from it.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] So his explicit request was what? You do not have my permission to what?

Josh Miller [00:06:04] Share the recording and transcript.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Okay. Okay. Did he ever say, please don't talk about what we talked about?

Josh Miller [00:06:10] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] Okay. I don't know if that satisfies Jer Lee, but she says, thanks for clarifying, as your previous comment did make it sound like Spencer had given permission. But this clarifies that he was made aware, but did not. Any. Did not give any kind of approval.

Josh Miller [00:06:27] I don't know that you would expect him to come out and say, yeah, go for it. I mean, I don't know what she's at. What she's. What she's looking for, but looks like

John Dehlin [00:06:33] she's looking for approval.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:06:35] Okay, well, yeah, it's my transition story, and Spencer was in that. So for me, he was part of my transition story. But it's not like I brought his transcript on here or his recording on here.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] So what about the idea that. And I've had people share this with me, they've likened it to a therapist. When you go to a therapist, there's an expectation of privacy. He expected that. What if someone were to say he expected that his meeting with you was private and therefore to share whatever was discussed in a meeting that he expected to be private, you know, is not staying in spirit.

Josh Miller [00:07:18] Well, let me put it this way. I would say that some of the podcasts that helped me the most were the ones where they met with general authorities. Because here was right. Because I'm going to my bishop for a year. I'm looking for guidance from someone with authority in the church. Here are my questions. Help me. And I constantly got search, ponder and praise. So I thought, let's go to someone that's met with the general authority, an apostle, someone. Tom Phillips really spoke to me because he met with Jeffrey R. Holland and knew Jeffrey R. Holland personally. Okay, well, what's Jeffrey R. Holland saying about these issues? He's got to know. Right. And so the point of that and our point in this conversation and sharing this was here's another individual that. That in high regard in the church. He's an historian. He's well educated and here's his point of view. And again, I guess I can understand the concern if these were things where he's like, Josh Brooke, please don't share these because these aren't well known facts about me or I don't share these opinions openly. It was Josh Brooke, I'll be dead honest on every single topic. Everyone knows where I stand on these. You know, I'm open. Everyone in my, you know, I get weird looks in my word because some of the stuff I talk about. But it wasn't like he doesn't share these things openly. So I don't know if the, I don't know if the perception is, is that he was sharing these things in hopes that they would never get out. Because that would never came across in any form.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] Because he says, you know, I wrote him an email too. I was, I was kind of engaged at one point and he said everything that I've shared with them, I've been sharing in my.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:09:03] In congregations.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Yeah. That I've been sharing in my BYU for 20 years. The difference is. And someone else raised this earlier. We're representing what he said.

Josh Miller [00:09:12] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] So it's not fair because there could, we could be misrepresenting. What do you guys say about that?

Josh Miller [00:09:18] I totally agree.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] We could be misrepresenting what he said.

Josh Miller [00:09:20] That's what I'm saying. I totally agree with that. And that's why we invited him and we asked, really pleaded that he would come because we wouldn't do justice of what he said. And it is our interpretation of what he said.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:09:30] John, you did say to him, you, you specifically said, you know, in us not airing the recording or the transcript, that it can misconstrue things. And he was okay with that. And he was aware with that. He was aware of that.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Yeah, I mean, he's, he's in a position where he just can't come on Mormon stories or he gets fired.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:09:48] Yeah, I understand his stance, but this is the thing. It comes to a place where we can make a difference.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] You know what we should do? Spencer Fluman, Dan Witherspoon, whoever, go on whatever forum you feel comfortable to respond to, share, to give your story, whatever forum you feel comfortable, and then we'll share it on Mormon stories. But go on a forum you feel comfortable.

Josh Miller [00:10:14] Yeah, I hope that we try to do justice by what we felt he was coming across. And again, our point is, dude, Spencer's out of his mind that we never said that once. I think that Spencer is really intelligent. I think he's come up with a really insightful way of dealing with these issues. And I think it's totally plausible to subscribe to that and stay in the church and live a happy life.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:10:36] Coming here to bash him. We're coming here to paint him in a good light.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Okay, Some of the audience is saying, move on, move on. And let's go ahead and finish out recapping the interview, then we'll talk about. But we appreciate everyone who's given their perspectives. It's super useful and it's a tough thing. Like Dan basically said. Do you realize you're in murky ethical territory? Do you have a quick response to Dan?

Josh Miller [00:11:02] I'd want to ask him why he's upset and why he feels that way, because if anything, we felt like we tried to be as ethical as we can. We could have not even notified Spencer of this. Right. We could have released the recording. We didn't do any of those things. We tried to run everything by him to make sure all parties were.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:11:19] We even invited him on here with us, and we still wish he was here.

LGBT Issues, Nuance, and Spencer Fluhman's Responses

John Dehlin [00:11:22] Okay, so let's talk. So the LGBT stuff. What do you guys want to say about his responses regarding LGBT stuff? Because, Brooke, you brought up suicides, you know, you guys brought up people that are suffering. How did he respond based on your memory?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:11:42] Basically, he was just. He responded as if he talks to people from LGBT communities every day. How his heart goes out to them and how he. Basically, it's on us, he said.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Meaning what?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:12:02] Basically, like, this is a problem the church has that we have not addressed and that it's something we're working with and it's a problem. It's a well known problem to this day, and we're just not there yet. And we're hoping we'll get there and we can come to a conclusion, but we're just not.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] How about you, Josh? What do you remember?

Josh Miller [00:12:26] I remember him just having a. You mentioned humility a couple times, a real humble stance and sense of love for those people that suffer with that. It came across as very genuine and that he wants to be an avenue and a source for them, a place of comfort to help them deal with anything they're dealing with. And that, you know, he feels that, you know, that there's a place for them, that we love everyone, and that the door should never be closed. And so that was the sense that I got from him.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:12:59] And can I just include in that that's the God we know when we left the church. That's the God we came to know, the God that we came, that we once knew in the church was a God of unconditional love. No tolerance whatsoever. And I think the God that we've come to know since we've left the church is one who understands people regardless of their circumstances and gives them the benefit of the doubt. Because life is hard. And I mean, choices to be true to yourself, those. I mean, that's. That's true bravery. And it's like, it's hard. It was not easy for me, to Josh. For me and Josh to make the decision to be here today, to, you know, put all this information out there about us and disclose all this. I mean, it's not easy doing this. But the thing is, we've been there. We know how bad it hurts, and we want to be a voice for the people that are going through a hard time. And for us, I mean, like, Spencer's approach is a very refreshing approach to us because it's one that I feel like comes from a loving tone, from a God that we know, not the God we used to know.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] Yeah. My notes from the conversation, he went back to saying that God has intentionally made this all murky so that the LGBT problem is a result of the murkiness of the process that God put in place for revelation to be murky and a struggle. So in that sense, I was a little bit. He wasn't blaming God, but for me, that's the implications of teaching that the process is intentionally murky. It's. That it's a bummer, but tens of thousands of LGBT people are going to kill themselves, but it's murky. You know what I mean? But that wasn't his tone. He wasn't intentionally laying it on God. But he started by saying the revelatory process is murky. This is a result of the murkiness. He went back to this idea that we need to readjust our perceptions of what prophets and apostles are implying very clearly. That which he had stated previously, which is the prophets and apostles make mistakes sometimes. All the time. Sometimes they're 30 years behind, behind the times. So he was clearly saying that this is likely a failing of our prophets and apostles.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:15:27] Why can I be a prophet or Josh be a prophet?

John Dehlin [00:15:29] That's a super legitimate question. I mean, that's.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:15:31] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] That is the question. How plain and precious is it if we're all prophets, but we're all really not? He also talked about we need to mourn with them, mourn with those who mourn. We need to run to them, we need to embrace them. Which was really beautiful. He said he didn't believe that the Brethren's intended to cause this pain and alienation. And he called it a failing. So he characterized our LGBT approach of failing for the church. Am I getting that wrong? You guys can corroborate. And he basically said, we need to have charity for the apostles and prophets if we expect them to have charity for us. So it's sort of like.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:16:17] But I don't feel charity coming our way.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] But say that again.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:16:21] I don't feel charity coming our way. I feel like it's more towards the

John Dehlin [00:16:25] LGBT people for them.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:16:26] No, no, there's. There's. They say. What did Joseph Smay, Joseph Smith say? DNC 31, Chapter 1. 31. Like, the least degree of sin. No. Acceptance of the least degree.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] Least degree of allowance. The Lord has no tolerance.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:16:41] Yeah. And I. And I feel like, you know, that's kind of where they stand on everything. It's just. No, no, no, no, no. And it's. I think when there's. When you. When you have that perspective and you don't. And I mean, Spencer obviously doesn't have this perspective, but when you have that perspective as a person with children or as a parent, and there's no give. There's going to be a breaking point with your child where, you know, your child is not going to. They're going to be true to themselves and they're going to live a life that makes sense to them. And we want that for them. Right. We want our children to live their life to the fullest and to be able to answer questions and be true to themselves. And just as us, as we are children of God, we should have that allowance as well. But as far as a prophet and apostle apostles are concerned, they want us. They want to choose our guidelines for us. They want to choose our values for us. We don't have that wiggle room to choose for ourself. It's the least degree of allowance there.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] What were you going to say, Josh?

Josh Miller [00:17:54] No, I was going to say that his tone was around profits, which I tend to agree with, is that we typically, maybe whether the church teaches us or we just culturally teach it, is that prophets are perfect, that they speak the word of God. And Spencer's is like, no, prophets aren't perfect. None of the prophets in the Bible were perfect.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] But he would say, the DNC tells us. The DNC tells us. They tell us themselves. They're not supposed to be perfect. So why are we holding the standard?

Josh Miller [00:18:26] Right? I think that's. I think that's because we've been taught that our whole life. Right. And I also think it stems from Brigham Young. Right. Like, and maybe again, whether this comes from the pulpit or not, it's generally accepted that if a prophet says something, it's the word of God and you have to do it, period. Right. And God would. And the prophet would never lead you astray. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] And don't forget the primary song. Follow the prophet. Follow the prophet. Don't go astray. Follow the prophet. Right, right. I mean, is it any more clear?

Josh Miller [00:19:00] Yeah. And, you know, and that interpretation is. Well, you kind of look at these guys like they're just getting inspiration as they go along, you know? And my analogy to that is, I'm like, well, then Steve Jobs was pretty inspired. Right. He created multi billion dollar business in Apple. So you could relate it to anybody that runs the corporation. Right. They're smart guys. They make common sense decisions. Like, the whole. The last revelation was to lower the age for missionaries from 19 to 18. Well, that's just common business sense that you're losing missionaries and you don't have enough missionaries out, and you're losing missionaries between the ages of 18 and 19, so you lower the age. I don't see any prophetic nature in that. For me, it would be much more profound if they were ahead of the curve on civil rights movement and ahead of the curve on the LGBTQ issues.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] And the women's rights movement.

Josh Miller [00:19:47] And the women's rights movement. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] And the Me Too movement.

Josh Miller [00:19:50] Absolutely. And it's crazy to me, too, that I didn't realize it until I got out of the church and started learning some of this stuff about Roman's rights and things. I'm like, so if you think about it, and you know, my mom, Brooke, my sister in laws, they're like, I'm like, so if you live a perfect. If you live a great life and you can celestial glory, what you have to look forward to is being a sister wife. Right. Like, to me, that's crazy.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:20:14] And if that's heaven, I don't want it.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Sorry, what do you mean? Like, you don't want what?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:20:18] I don't want to. I don't want to be one. I don't want to share my husband with multiple wives. I don't want to. I mean, like, I. If heaven to me is not sharing my husband with multiple wives, heaven to me is not living some perfect life as to where I can't enjoy it or I can't be true to myself or, you know, I mean, that. That Just the, the heaven that Mormonism creates does not sound like heaven to me. Especially. Cause when I go to church, I don't feel like I relate to majority of the people there. And I don't. And I feel like it's a very judgmental world and I don't. That doesn't sound like heaven to me.

Josh Miller [00:21:01] That's another component that I think Mormonism in general is going to have to face because the world is evolving and you know, I have two daughters that are amazing and I want them to grow up in an environment where they have equal opportunity and, and it's not a male dominated environment. And the church is very much an old narrative of male domination. It's priesthood power. The heaven is geared towards men having multiple wives. It's just this view I don't agree with anymore. And that took place once I could step out of the church and break down the barriers and the walls that have been put up through my upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] All right, so. Sort of towards the end of the interview, he sort of focuses on the section around nuance. He basically says that naturalistic explanations are inadequate to sort of really characterize the fullness of what he experiences. That he finds profundity and brokenness and nuance and complexity and imperfection and messiness struggles. He sees it as more profound, not less. And this is something Dan Witherspoon often emphasizes that you could, so you can like have this binary worldview. The church is true or false. We're all kind of set up for that. And we're fools when we think it's all true. But what Dan would say is you're fools for thinking that it's all false and that what if there's something deeper, which is this richness and profundity, this value in the struggle, that it makes us wiser, it makes us deeper. And clearly Spencer is wise and loving. Right? And Spencer's sort of making this case that there's more to life than history, more to life than naturalistic explanations, more to the gospel, than this hard stuff, that there's truth behind it, the community, the spirituality, the. What you read when you read the Book of Mormon and you get inspired, the experiences he. And just to be clear, there was zero sense I got that he didn't genuinely believe in the church, that he didn't genuinely believe that the scriptures were inspired. He believes this church is of God. He believes the scriptures are inspired. He said that he feels like this is the best church he knows of with the best answers. So he even sees the church as exceptional in that way. But he's saying, just like you, Brooke, or you, Josh, can't be summed up by your neurons or your atoms, there's something more special about you. There's a deeper and a richer engagement that you can have with Mormonism. Taking off the table, whether it's true or not, taking off the table, its truthfulness, and just focusing on its goodness and its richness and its spirituality. So he did make that case that he can't deny the spiritual experiences that he's had. He can't deny the spiritual experiences he's had reading the Book of Mormon that in some ways he said he's captured, but in a profound way. So he said it's a choice. He's made a choice to stay with the church. But he also used the term captured, but not captured like a victim. Captured like, I've had so many incredible, rich spiritual experiences, experiences that I can't deny it. And did that in any way give you guys pause where you're like, well, we've had. You said you've had those spiritual experiences. You love the church, you found value in it. What were you thinking when he's saying, hey, guys, stay with the deeper, richer struggle here. Don't abandon that just because you were set up with a false dichotomy of true or false. What would you say?

Josh Miller [00:24:51] Well, first of all, I love that response. That was one of the. I mean, the best things he said, I thought the whole time. And you're right, he was a defender of the faith all the way through. He just did it in a different way. He did it in his own approach. But I agree with that. That just does not align with the narrative that there's one true church. Because you can find spirituality in Buddhism and Judaism and Hinduism and any religion out there. You can find a sense of spirituality.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] And he would say, well, then bring those and just bring those into Mormonism. And I feel Mormonism is big enough to include all that.

Josh Miller [00:25:23] Yeah. And so for me.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] So why abandon Mormonism?

Josh Miller [00:25:25] Yeah. So because the church teaches there's one true church. And for me, if it was the case where you were, again, where I grew up around so many different religions, if you were Baptist, there was not a Baptist guy saying, dude, if you're Presbyterian, you're going to hell. Right. Or you're not going to attain the best glory. Mormons say that if you don't go through the temple ordinances and you don't believe as we believe, then you're not going to make it to the celestial kingdom. And That I believe contradicts that spirit of let's bring everyone. This is a big heaven. Let's have everyone in it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:25:59] And it goes back to a loving God too.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] But then again, and I don't mean to argue with you, but people would say, no, no, no, you forgot Joseph. That's one of the beauties of Joseph's theology. He's got the spirit prison. Spencer even said, I've got no hell in Mormonism, right? He said that in the interview, that there's a spirit prison, that everyone's going to get a chance to hear the gospel. And that's what's so awesome about Mormonism. It's so inclusive to the point where Buddhists and Muslims and Jews and atheists can make it the celestial kingdom. That's why we have ordinance for the dead.

Josh Miller [00:26:31] Then why have missionaries? Like, why? Because it's the most true, right?

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Because it's the most true.

Josh Miller [00:26:37] But I'm saying, if everyone's going to learn in the afterlife, to us, it's not.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] What do you mean?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:26:41] What's not for us, it's not the most true. I mean, you look at. To our defense. I went through our interview and I wrote notes on all of our questions. I tried to find answers to all of our questions throughout the interview. And like, going back to the DNA, the only legitimate answer that I felt like was good enough for me was, well, just because we haven't found DNA does not mean it's not there. That was the best answer that I had received throughout the whole interview. And the thing is, like, if I. If I'm really searching for answers here, but I got a lot of I don't knows and I wish I knew kind of answers, I couldn't. I never really got any legitimate answers. It was all kind of just pulling here and pulling there and a collaboration of things and I don't knows and I mean, Spencer knows his stuff and he's a smart guy and I'm not going against his credibility at all. But to be honest, when we walked away from the interview, I came into that interview with very high hopes. Upon leaving that interview, I was really sad. I walked away and the whole next day I was really disappointed. And I remember the next night I was coming home or I was going to hang out with my friends and it was in Salt Lake and I was driving there and I literally bawled all the way there.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Why?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:28:24] Because I had not received any answers. I had so much high hopes that I was going to receive answers to my questions. None of them were there. And so for me, it was just like I was hoping that Spencer, somebody who had studied anti Mormon history, who had a dissertation written on it, somebody who knew their stuff, could answer some of my questions. And yet upon leaving, when nothing could have been answered, I had to refocus. I had to re situate my thoughts after my emotional mental breakdown. And I had to think what was the best thing I could take away from this. And. And it was the optimistic nature of the interview that I brought from it that helped pull me through.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] What's that?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:29:31] It was, you know, that Spencer said pretty much, yes, we haven't found answers.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] But was that validating?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:29:40] It was.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] Was there something positive? Was there something positive about the validation that there are no good answers?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:29:45] And John, this is another thing that was so validating. We, you know, we had gone through so much prior to meeting with Spencer and the falling out of the church. And I mean, I'd been judging my husband and I'd been throwing accusations his way, or people have been throwing accusations his way. And sure enough, I felt so guilty about that and I realized how judgmental I'd been and the guilt and, oh, the shame and the heartache. And of course, you know, coming into the interview, I was just thinking that, that Spencer could provide that clarity for me. And I was angry and I was mad and I was bitter. But when Spencer, Spencer kind of painted everything in a different light, gave me a different perspective. Yes, we don't have these answers, but, you know, and yes, there are problems with the church, but they need to be changed, and we're hoping that they'll be changed, and we're fighting for change. And I mean, he has a very optimistic and bright outlook, and I admire that about him.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] Josh, what were your. Were you disappointed? Not disappointed. What were your reactions to Spencer's, you know, time with you after you were done?

Josh Miller [00:31:15] I'll say I was pleasantly surprised by his approach. It didn't change my opinion of where I stood, but I appreciated his tone. I appreciate it. And we've talked about this a dozen times, but I appreciated who he is and how he's made sense of things in a very intelligent way. And I respect that. And I think that he needs. We need more Spencer Flumans out there for people that are struggling, for people that are in mixed faith marriages, because he offers. He offers a place for both sides. He even mentioned in his to us that he has lots of friends that have found their way outside of the church and they're happy in that. And he's still friends with Them he's friends. And I think, you know, his point is, I'm here to help however I can. I want, obviously, you to be here in the church. I believe this is a richer place, and you're gonna find that you can have a very fulfilling life in the church. And he has. Right. He has with his family, his friends, his ward. He believes in the organizational structure of the church. And so I took away from that okay. For me, if the church came out and said, okay, Joseph Smith was a good person, or you could say that he had some revelations or spiritual influences that we would like to live by, but he didn't translate a Book of Mormon. He never found plates. Let's be honest. He never. You know, all this stuff was made up right then. I could absolutely go to church every Sunday and be part of that community and be part of the family. I appreciate the family. I appreciate service projects. I appreciate everything the church stood for. I just can't go there and then come back to my son and be like, yeah, Joseph Smith spoke with God. Because I don't believe that, in my opinion. And so Spencer's approach didn't answer those questions for me, but it gave me a point of view where I can respect people that choose to stay. And I think that's what came out of the meeting was instead of being on one side where you're negative and you hate the church and you hate everything it stands for, Spencer offered a vision into people who choose to stay and why they choose to stay. And I really respect that.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:33:28] And, John, going back to your question, I don't think I fully answered it. Did I feel validated? Yes, I did. Because going through our transition, you talk to so many people that are skeptical of you and skeptical of your intentions, and I don't think they have an accurate reading of you. And so, of course, you're thinking, by the time I, you know, this girl approached me to meet with Spencer, I was almost done with the church. I just was like, I can't find any answers anywhere. But then she. She brought up this opportunity. I thought, of course, you know, like, why would give any. Give the church any chance that I possibly could? Because that's how much I want it to be true. And not only that, I want to consider the fact that anybody who's skeptical of my decision or chooses to judge me for my decision, I would hope that they realize that I gave everything I got to find truth. So I went to Spencer. We went to Spencer in finding truth, and to prove that, no, there are not answers to our questions. And when I walked out, yes, it was hard, but just to a huge degree, it was a huge sense of relief because we felt validated walking out that door. Wouldn't you say, hon?

Josh Miller [00:34:55] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] So why did you cry all the way home that one car ride? What was that crying about?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:35:00] Because I was really hoping we could find answers. I mean, going into the interview, I'm thinking, gosh, there's part of me that's dreaming about watching my son go on a mission. And, you know, my daughter gets married in a year or gets. My daughter's going to get baptized in a year. And I'm thinking that's a possibility. We just might come out, you know, in high hopes of knowing that these things can happen again. And I can have a testimony and my. I can revive my story. I can go back to church and we can live this happy. Because really, if you think about the gospel, it's just too good to be true. All of it is just, it's like kind of like a fairy tale in my mind. And we can live this fairy tale. So that's what I was thinking. And then, of course, we didn't get the answers we were searching for. I didn't feel like we got any legitimate and answers to our questions. So I left and I was disappointed and my head was hung low and we kind of joy, we, I don't know for I, I. So, you know, the next day when I had time to myself, you know, as a mom, and I think many moms out there could relate to me, you get time in your car to yourself, and that's time to think and time to be alone. And that's my thinking time. And as I'm driving to meet up with my friends, I'm just in tears and I'm realizing, yeah, you know, my high hopes were shot down once more. And I guess, what's next? Where do we go from here? Because, you know, you talk to a lot of people. There's people in my family that said, well, if, if you leave the church, how do you, how do you raise your kids? And I even had a discussion with somebody I'm really dear with, dear to. And they said, what's going to happen to your kids if you leave the church? And I said, I don't know, they'll get into football, they'll get into basketball, they'll get into art. I said, if your church, if your kids don't go to church, they're getting, they're going to get to into drugs and alcohol and they're going to be

John Dehlin [00:37:20] alcoholics, which is super weird because. Because Utah has, like, a massive prescription drug abuse problem and there are STDs that are rampant and pornography. We, you know, by some reports, lead the nation. So the idea that only healthy, happy kids come out of Mormon families is crazy, given that we have double to triple suicide rates of our youth compared to other states. Like, that's another thing we just need to totally stop. Is this idea that only Mormons raise happy, healthy kids.

Josh Miller [00:37:57] Right? Totally. Yep.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:37:59] And then consider the fact that, you know, The Mormon population is.001% of the world. So there are a lot of good people out there.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] Yeah.

Josh Miller [00:38:07] They're not Mormon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] So one last time, I'm just going to say, why not? The idea that, yes, the church isn't true, maybe it's not better than any other church, but it's your tribe, and in it, you could pursue spirituality. You could do all this outside. Let's just agree to that. You can serve outside Mormonism. You can sing hymns and pray and believe in Jesus or not. You can have community. Let's just say you can do all that outside of Mormonism. Why not stay anyway? Because you'll have an influence. The structure is there. It's your tribe, and it's a great place to serve. It's a great place to, you know, the scriptures can have value even if they're not true. They can still have spiritual value. And there's truth in the things taught. Why not follow Spencer and Dan's sort of urging to pursue rich, deep spirituality within Mormonism, even if it's not what it claims to be?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:04] Well, I think we're all navigating this process on our own, and we're all trying to find our truth, and we need to have integrity and be true to ourselves in the process.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] But so what does your integrity tell you?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:17] Well, this is what I had to say. I had to do lots of research because this is not easy. You're uprooting your children's lives. You've taught them a certain way their whole life, and now you're choosing to completely uproot their teachings and steer them a totally different way.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] So don't do it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:36] No, for me, I couldn't do it because.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] So going back saying, don't leave, stay there.

Closing Reflections and Listener Responses

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:39:41] Going back to your podcast with Mike Norton. I know it was a very controversial podcast. It was a great podcast at that, very entertaining. But you asked him a question, and this question just sat with me, and I couldn't shake it. And the question was, Is there more good or is there more bad in the church? And, you know, I think as an insider, you don't want to see the bad, so you're not going to look for it, so you're not going to be exposed to the bad. But for me, I had to dig and I had to find out for myself what I thought. And for me, there's more cons than pros to staying in the church.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] So what are some of those cons for you?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:40:29] So for me, the cons are you look at the social pressures within the church. You know, like the moms that have to outdo the moms or the callings that have to outdo the callings. Those are the social pressures that come with that. You look at the people that are. I mean, here in Utah, antidepressant meds and anxiety meds are at their highest. There's more prescription meds here in Utah than there is anywhere in all the states. So there's one. There's the wedge that it creates in. Through relationships of families, changes that people make in their life. I mean, to fit the mold of, like, for instance, Josh. I mean, he could have gotten his full ride and played football, but instead he decided to go on a mission. And now, I mean, he kind of has regrets in a sense. He wasn't able to live his life true to itself. And people will literally drop everything, get married, have kids. It's like this lifestyle that they lead. And so if that's what makes you happy. But that's also in my pros list too, because me and Josh wouldn't be here if we didn't have that. So I added that to the pros list as well. LGBTQ community, here we come again. Single parents or children that go without to afford high rise building shopping malls, lavish materials for temples, all these things that, I mean, Josh's mom is a perfect example of that. Where she. And there's so many moms out there where they pay their tithing, yet they can barely afford to get food on the table for their children. Yet. Why do we need these high rise buildings? Why do we need these shopping malls? Kids are starving, people are going without so that they can have the highest quality materials imported from Italy for their curtains for their temples. And nice. And the best artists to come in and paint on their walls mean they're beautiful and they're great and we appreciate the artwork. But why do we have to have. Why do we have to go through these extremes and have people that are. Are going without and people are struggling Just so that we can have these, you know, nice little luxuries. Then also there's how people are raised. And then in turn, frowned, for instance, the Lance and Nicky Miles, how he was raised and his dad was gay. And once his dad came out, he in turn was taught to frown upon his dad. So, you know, the perspective of how people frown on people in the church. Unrealistic expectations that create guilt or shame. 1% of the tithes donated to generous causes. Only 1% of LDS Church tithes are donated to other causes in the world. Paid apostles and prophets. The secrecy kept from its members in turn to make people look like us, look bad. The Sam Young petition suppression to reach outside ourselves and live blindly. And last, the lies upon lies upon lies.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] All right, that's quite a list, Josh. Why not stay?

Josh Miller [00:44:25] Yeah, for me, fundamentally, if you even put the historical issues aside, I don't believe that there's one true church. And I don't believe that lesbians and gays are going to hell. And fundamentally, that just does not sit well with me. And the church has made very clear where they sit on those two issues. And so for me, I feel like I can get anything I need out of spirituality through service, through community, through fellowship outside of the church. And that's why I choose to live outside of it.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] All right. Well, this has been so wonderful. We have so, so many comments. Way too many comments to read, but I'll just read a few. Sherry says, thank you, Brooke and Josh, I relate and wish the integrity of our search could be validated by loved ones without hurting them. Christy writes, integrity matters. So lots of people are saying thank you so much for your courage. And I just want to join with all of them and say thank you so much for your courage. I also want to say, just because Dan and Jer Lee are friends, that they did write in later. And you can go back and find their comments where they basically just say, yes, we've been, you know, yes, we've been challenging the ethics of what you've done out of love for Spencer and a desire for good to keep continuing within the church. But Dan and Jerry Lee have both expressed sincere pain at what you've experienced and support and validation. So I just. That's because I love Jerry and Dan. I'm going to make sure not leave them hanging that way. But, you know, we've had a very high number of participants here, and people are just really grateful for your will to share a really hard experience.

Josh Miller [00:46:17] Yeah. And I would just say that we're here, you Know, I mean, you know, if somebody wants to reach out to us on a one on one and they're going through similar issues, but it saved our marriage. Mormon story saved our marriage. People like Spencer saved our marriage. And so we're eternally grateful to the people before us. So if we can be of any source of help, we would be happy to do it.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:46:39] And communication is key. I think that communicating with your spouse, communicating with your family, your loved ones, friends, whatever you can do to get through it.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] So final, final words you want to share with Spencer if he's listening.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:46:56] Spencer, thank you for your opportunity or for the opportunity to meet with you. Thank you for your insight, for bringing us to a brighter light. We love you, we appreciate you, we think the world of you and we praise you in your ability and desire to do good for others.

Josh Miller [00:47:18] Yeah, Brooke said it. Well, I mean, Spencer, we again, to the short term that we've known you and everyone knows you, your integrity, your search for honest truth spoke volumes to us. So we appreciate everything you're doing for us and for those that are struggling.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] All right, thanks to everyone who's joined us live for this interview. Thanks to everyone who supports the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories podcast. Your donations make all this possible. If you love this type of content, if you value it, if you value its reach and its impact, Please do donate 10 or 20 or $50 a month keeps this non profit alive. We're transparent in our finances. We have a staff that the money goes to, we have accountants and we do everything we can to make sure that we are promoting awareness of difficult issues. But most importantly, the mission of the Open Stories foundation is to support people in transition. So if you want less divorces, less suicides, less mental health issues, more support, more awareness, less splitting up of families, please support Mormon Stories in the open space Stories foundation financially. In addition to financially, there are other ways to support us. You can like our Mormon Stories podcast Facebook page. You can make a positive review on the Mormon Stories podcast page. We have mean spirited people all the time give us one star reviews when they don't even listen to the podcast just to bring our rating down. So we always need each week a new round of people giving us positive interviews. Itunes interview are really important. So please go to itunes and give us a positive favorable review on itunes. That helps us get the word out. That's really important. And then follow us on Instagram and Twitter as well at Mormonstories. And finally, please know that we do hold most weeks or months workshops or retreats to Support people in faith crisis. We've got some coming up, so please go to Mormons. We may even do one in South Jordan. Is that right?

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:49:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] So if any of you are in South Jordan, Harriman, West Jordan, Sandy Draper, wherever that may be, we're going to be holding workshops or retreats soon. We also may do some. We've had interest in Sacramento, we've had interest in Portland, we've had interest in in Minnesota, Chicago, Milwaukee area, you know, Orlando, Florida, D.C. we've had people coming out of the woodworks, even Ogden Layton area. We've had people coming out of the works wanting us to do workshops and retreats to save families, to save lives, to help with mental health, etc. So if you want to be a part of it, reach out to us and let us know that you want to bring one of our workshops or retreats to your area. We just did one in Phoenix that was life changing for the 60 plus people who came. We did one in St. George a few weeks ago. Again, five star reviews. So we're grateful to Amy Grubbs, Cody Layton, the Open Stories foundation board, Sharon Price, and all those who make the Open Stories foundation possible. And just again, to conclude, we love you guys and good luck finding blazing a new trail. I want to just give you hope that you can raise amazing children in or out of Mormonism. You can have a healthy marriage in or out of Mormonism. You can find community in or out of Mormonism. You can find spirituality and health in or out of Mormonism. There's not only hope, there's this beautiful, wonderful, thriving life ahead of you. You're seeking truth, you're seeking authenticity and it's going to pay huge positive dividends for you. I bet. That's my bet.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:51:08] Yes.

Josh Miller [00:51:10] Thank you. Thank you for having us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] All right.

Brooke Bonham Miller [00:51:11] Yeah. Thanks for having us and letting us come on here. And we appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] All right, thanks guys. Thanks everyone for joining us. Please tune in again soon for more episodes of Mormon Stories podcasts. Take care, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Bye.

John Dehlin [00:51:30] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rocks is a featured single on Angela Soph's upcoming album Second Wind. Inspired by her struggle with the faith journey out of orthodox religion. You can find and follow her on social media. Social media as Angela Sofbam. That's S O F F E on Spotify or AngelAsof.com.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] So judge me, cast me your stones I will lay them back at your feet Take my hand let's walk among we like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do I don't know why we all stand in a circle and point our fingers or two Tell me how can you see what is buried beneath a mountain of smiles? We're all thrown in the same blue water of the unknown so leave your rocks at. The truth is not what it seems we are told to just be believing the story has never been told and we all need someone to listen to hold our hearts is there beating with so much more than we see.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.