Introducing Vance Allred and His Background

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 675

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's October 25, 2016, and we have a really fascinating Mormon Stories episode ahead. Today we're going to be interviewing a father son duo. The father is Vance Allred. He's the son of Rulon Allred, the founder of the Apostolic United Brethren. Is that right, Aubrey?

John Dehlin [00:00:27] So we have Vance Allred, and then we're also going to be interviewing his son, Lance Allred, who recently gave a talk at the University of Utah called what Is yous Polygamy? He grew up in a polygamous family. He ended up playing basketball both for the University of Utah and Weber State and eventually played professional basketball for something like 10 years, including time with the Cleveland Cavaliers and I think LeBron James.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] But we're going to be talking about what it's like to be in a polygamous family and then to be out of a polygamous family. We're going to be talking about sort of modern Mormon polygamy from the AUB perspective. And so we're super excited to have you here, Vance.

Vance Allred [00:01:13] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] Thanks for joining us. So before we begin kind of talking about your story, give us a little bit about the background. Our listeners are going to kind of know the general idea of what happened, but just give us a little brush up on sort of the splinter polygamous groups that came after the manifesto. So Mormons are practicing polygamy up until 1890 or so. Wilford Woodruff gives the first manifesto. Maybe there's some stuff with John Taylor that goes on before that. But give us just a brief, a brief history lesson on sort of what led to the creation of Auburn.

Growing Up as the 33rd Child in a Polygamist Family

Vance Allred [00:01:57] Okay. I'm a history teacher, and so I know there are multiple versions of anything and every story. So this is just my perspective. I was the 33rd child and the 15th son of Rulem Allred. My mother was his legal wife. She was actually the second woman he married and by whom he had children.

Vance Allred [00:02:16] And I was able to hear all the stories growing up. I spent a lot of time with my dad. To make a long story very short, my father's youngest wife 20 years younger than my mother, but her children were the same age as my mother's children.

Vance Allred [00:02:32] And so my mother was 38 before she had her first children, which is another story. But my dad had to keep his youngest wife in Montana where polygamy was not against the law. He married her between the time that he was convicted of polygamy in 1944 and two weeks later when he was sentenced to go to prison. So he didn't, quote, unquote, pay the price for marrying my Aunt Ethel. And so he always kept her hidden away. And because of that, I sat in the backseat of my dad's car a lot. Not because I was special to him, but because my favorite brothers and sisters lived in Montana.

Vance Allred [00:03:01] And so I sat in the backseat of his car, traveling back and forth and back and forth. I really had no idea how many times, but I would say probably between 50 to 60 times. And the average trip was 10 hours each way. And so I got to hear my dad. I spent a lot of time with him. And I'm not saying I know my dad best. I'm not saying I know more about him than any of my brothers and sisters, but I think I was in his presence when he was talking more than about anybody else. But the real story, real briefly, is that everybody has their own view and their own version.

Vance Allred [00:03:31] Historically, we look at things as how they have had the greatest impact on today. And today, the greatest remnants of Mormon polygamy all have some claim to or tie to a man named Loren Woolley, who claimed that in 19. Excuse me. That in 1886, that he received a special calling from John Taylor. It's what's called the eight hour meeting. And almost every polygamous group has some connection to that claim to him. Ironically, Lawrence E. Woolley didn't tell anybody the story until 43 years later. That's almost as long as they've been married. So in 1929, he finally said, well, hey, I have the authority. I have all the keys to priesthood.

Vance Allred [00:04:08] And ironically, it violates one of the basic premises of Mormonism, because everything should be established in the mouth of two more witnesses. That's the book of Timothy in the Bible. And so he's the only man who was witness to this calling. But everybody claims to get their authority from him some form or another.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] So he knew John Taylor four years before the manifesto.

Vance Allred [00:04:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] And he claims that John Taylor basically said what?

Vance Allred [00:04:30] Well, he was one of John Taylor's many bodyguards. But he claims that at this meeting that John Taylor laid his hands upon his head and the prophet Joseph Smith was standing right there as a witness. He had crossed the veil spiritually. No, he. Spiritually, he'd come through the veil. His resurrected body had come through the veil to be there. Don Taylor, during the process of talking, rose up and off the floor 3, 4ft, several times, levitating back and forth. It's an interesting Story. I used to believe it all, okay? I really did believe it all for years. But there were witnesses who saw. The witness who saw the ordination supposedly were George Buchanan and John Taylor, laid their hands upon Lawrence E.

Vance Allred [00:05:11] Woolley's head and gave him this authority. And so there were men who found him and knew about him, but he didn't really come to anybody's attention, really, until he started saying in 1929, Hey, I have this authority. And that there had been by this time, a lot of disaffected Mormons who had been either practicing polygamy or continued to believe in polygamy or had been born in polygamy, who wanted it to remain part of the Mormon culture, part of the Mormon religion. And. And so when somebody finally had the courage or the audacity or the chutzpah or whatever extent and say, hey, I have all the authority, many people gathered to him, one of whom was my grandfather, hardy Allred.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] So 40 years after the fact is

Vance Allred [00:05:51] suspect in a historian's view and Mormon scriptural view, it is totally violated. It violates Mormon doctrine because there's only one witness. And people say, well, how about Joseph Smith in the first vision? But the thing is, Joseph Smith did not claim to receive any keys at that point. Oliver Cowdery and he received keys together. Every manifestation that Joseph Smith had, where he received keys, there was always at least two of them there. And Lawrence E. Woolley purported to have received keys in this ordination, and he's the only one to witness it. And that simply violates the basic premise of doctrine. But somehow or other Mormons, Mormon fundamentalists, need this one.

Vance Allred [00:06:31] Because of all the claims of which I have heard, this is by far away. I was going to say the most credible. I will say it's the least incredible. I have to emphasize it's not credible. It is the least incredible of all of the claims of authority.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] So there are other claims?

Vance Allred [00:06:45] Oh, absolutely. And I don't even waste my time on them. I have known many of them, and there's so many different versions, so many different stories. I just get bored with them very quickly.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] Okay, okay. So your grandfather claims to have received the authority from Loren C. Woolley, is that right?

Vance Allred [00:07:03] No, my father did. There are so many stories to tie in really quickly. My grandfather and his father and his father and his father all practiced polygamy. And my grandfather, however, was very young. He was 18 years old when he got married, and he was only 20 when the manifest was signed. His father, Byron Harvey Allred Sr. Received a special recommendation. I'M sorry, from Wilfred Ruth to go to Mexico and practice plural marriage and actually take another wife in Mexico. In 1890, he left shortly after the manifesto was signed and moved down there.

Vance Allred [00:07:36] Father didn't do anything. He stayed in the United States. He became a politician. He was only 21 when he passed the bar in Wyoming. And he became the youngest, still to this day the youngest member of the Wyoming state legislature. But he was very happily married to his first wife. But then for reasons that there's a lot of dialogue and disagreement about, he decided he needed to marry another wife. So he married my grandmother, my father's mother in Mexico. My grandfather took his first wife and her children, all of whom. And his first wife is very dark haired, dark complected, she was a Welsh ancestry. And my grandmother who was Danish, northern European, very blonde, like. Well, I was going to say like I am. I used to be.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Right, you used to be.

Vance Allred [00:08:17] I used to be, but. And so here my grandfather took this young woman down to Mexico to marry her and he married her. And in colonial Juarez. And he was. They were sealed by Anthony W. Ivins, who was later a member of the First Presidency of the Church. He was the son in law of Erastus Snow. He never lived plural marriage himself, but he performed hundreds and hundreds of marriages around what year between 1900 and 19 and 1904.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] So members of the LDS Church leaders in the LDS Church were still performing plural marriages long after the 1890 manifesto, including ones that would end up in the First Presidency. And we know that, but that's still important for Mormons to understand that on the one hand, we're promising we're going to stop practicing polygamy. On the other hand, our top leaders 10, 20 years after the manifesto are still performing plural marriages.

Vance Allred [00:09:12] It's funny, I've had more than a few redee devout Mormons look me in the face and tell me that no, there were no more marriages after the manifesto. Which, you know, it's kind of like telling a person who was at Pearl harbor on December 7 that the Japanese didn't attack us. It's just kind of like all I can do. It's rude, but I've actually burst out laughing in their faces a few times.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] My great grandfather was sealed to his fourth wife long after, you know, years after the manifesto.

Vance Allred [00:09:40] But church authorized plural marriage did end with the second manifesto of Joseph S. Smith in 1904. Then I think in my mind, there's no doubt about that. So 1904, 1904, where that was the end.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] So the Smoot hearings and all that.

Vance Allred [00:09:53] Exactly. Exactly. Because of the Smoot hearings, Joseph F. Smith unequivocally put it to rest, nailed the coffin lid, whatever you want to look at it as far as the Church was concerned. But then that led to the argument that there was then a duality of priesthood leadership and that the most polygamous groups claimed that Joseph S. Smith was the last man to hold all of the keys. Now, keep in mind, Mormon fundamentalists have to construct this incredibly sophisticated, tortured, fragmented ideology in order to explain how the keys got out of the priesthood, out to where they are. And ironically, I'm the guy who developed all the codification of all the philosophies and trying to understand for myself how my father could hold the keys of the priesthood and how they could become separated from Temple Square Church headquarters, mainstream LDS religion especially.

Vance Allred [00:10:50] Consider my greatest dilemma is my father was born March 29, 1906, and seven days later, David O. McKay was called to be a member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. So my dad was not even two weeks old when David O. McKay was given all the keys to the apostle. How can my father have all the keys? Am I making sense to you? That was my greatest challenge growing up. David O. McKay. This institution everybody loved. And yet my father, who claimed to have the higher keys, the ceiling keys. And so I spent much of my adult life trying to understand how that could be.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] You were a fundamentalist apologist?

Vance Allred [00:11:28] Absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely. And my story is, did you think

John Dehlin [00:11:32] of yourself as an apologist?

Vance Allred [00:11:33] No, not at all. Did that term ever come up? Not whatever. Because, apologies, apologists are only defending what is not true. I was researching. Defending the truth.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] The truth. Okay. So your grandfather was a legitimate LDS polygamist.

Rulon Allred's Path to Polygamist Leadership

Vance Allred [00:11:49] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] So tell us how your father got into it.

Vance Allred [00:11:52] Well, this is so interesting because I have heard so many stories, so many stories growing up, and I realized listening to my dad, my dad's stories going back and forth on those trips were usually pretty consistent. But I've now read my aunt's diaries, my sister's diaries, my father's wives diaries, and there are so many stories, and all I can. It would take me hours. Say, my dad said this, my mother said this, but the bottom line real quickly is that my father stayed in the United States. I'm sorry, how can I say this?

Vance Allred [00:12:22] So many things going on. My grandfather remained in Mexico, but his children from his first wife were dark and swarthy looking. They tanned beautifully and they looked like they were Mexicans. They spoke beautiful Spanish but they got to hang around with the Mexican farmers and they knew a revolution was coming. And so they told my grandfather, papa, we need to leave Mexico because the revolution is coming.

Vance Allred [00:12:44] And that he told all the other Mormons down there, including his grand, including his father. And it's great because Lance's great grandfather and my grandfather were good friends in Mexico. We read they in each other's diaries. We read about them and their friendship with each other, which is quite interesting that we later would come join.

Vance Allred [00:13:04] But my grandfather left Mexico when my father was a little boy and came back to the United States with his family. But shortly after he came to the United States, his first wife, Charlotte, who was pregnant with twins, died in childbirth with them.

Vance Allred [00:13:19] And it was a terrible tragedy, very heart reigning for my grandfather. I'm not saying he would ever have wished it, but that became very convenient for him. Not just her passing, but the situation of the families because all of the children, the dark haired mother, appeared to be older than all the children of the white haired mother. I'm grossly oversimplifying this, but my father was the oldest living child of the second wife and Aunt Ria was the youngest living child of the first wife. Aunt Ria was actually younger than my dad, but they let everybody believe that she was older than my dad. And so grandfather returned back to Idaho where he became involved. He was in the state legislature and

John Dehlin [00:14:01] he appeared as a monogamist.

Vance Allred [00:14:02] He appeared as a serial, as a serial monogamist one.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] So you just merged the children into the second wife as the, as the mom.

Vance Allred [00:14:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] Which is your mom.

Vance Allred [00:14:12] Right. This is my father's mother, grandmother. And so, and she was a wonderful mother. And of course the kid, you know, and my grandfather's oldest children had known her since they were little. And so it was natural to them.

Vance Allred [00:14:26] And so it was this typical, you know, Mormon good family of, you know, the wife dies, you marry another woman. So that was the, the COVID that my dad grew up in. His father, my great grandfather, didn't come out of Mexico until Pancho Villa came in and terrorized the colonies. And he, like all the others, came out on the flat car. And it's interesting because that's when my wife's great grandfather came out of Mexico and they both died in El Paso, leaving their families without any direction and care. So then my dad grew up in Blackfoot, Idaho, which is where my Florida grandfather returned. He became active in local politics again, he never became active in state legislature or anything like that, but my dad grew up, had a relatively Normal upbringing. He married his child in Idaho as lds. As active. Lds. Normal.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] Active.

Vance Allred [00:15:14] LS Active. None of them knew any of the polygamists at this time.

John Dehlin [00:15:17] None of them knew what.

Vance Allred [00:15:18] Knew any of the polygamists at that time. There were already these polygamist groups like Lauren C. Woolley and. And all these others, you know, Benjamin Clough and these others, they weren't connected. Not connected at all. My grandfather didn't have anything to do with any of them. In fact, he was very ardently opposed to anybody who had anything.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Criticism. So he didn't take a third wife, your grandfather.

Vance Allred [00:15:39] Later he did much later when he was older, but he didn't have any more children by anybody else.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] So when your dad was growing up, did he think of belonging himself as belonging to a polygamous family? Or.

Vance Allred [00:15:49] You see, but this is interesting because of the fact that the other mother was unknown to my dad, kind of enabled him to, you know, her presence was very real. Because he knew his older brothers and sisters very well and their family was very close. And so my dad's older siblings treated him just like they did each other. And so I knew, I knew only two of them I never met who died before I was born. So I knew all of them as well. And there was a very close family. So the dark haired ones and the blonde haired ones.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] So Rulin knew that his dad had had a first wife.

Vance Allred [00:16:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Did he grow up thinking, I'm a polygamist and we're a polygamist?

Vance Allred [00:16:22] Because they just. Apparently, from what dad said, they just never talked about it.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:16:27] When they came out of Mexico, it was kind of like, this is the thing of the past. It was authorized. And so dad married his childhood sweetheart and then he went off to California, studied medicine and there to remission. No, he did not.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:16:41] But he was a believer.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Orthodox believer.

Vance Allred [00:16:42] Oh. As my father was very devout in the elder, extremely devout in the oldest church.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] So he would have married around what decade?

Vance Allred [00:16:48] He married and married his first wife in 1926.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] Okay. So right before the Great Depression.

Vance Allred [00:16:53] Right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:16:54] And so they moved to Mexico. And they moved to Mexico. They moved to California. And my dad became very involved in the LDS Church there. He was the leader of the genealogy group. And after all, he was called to be the leader of the state, given the state calling, to be in charge of the genealogy. And he actually was the one who would organize the bus trips over to Mesa Temple where they do a lot of work. And my father was a world class genealogist. I should have Brought one of them for you. He did compile and publish the Allred Family in America, which is this seminal work, which in there is the name of Barack Obama's mother.

Vance Allred [00:17:27] She is her mother's mother's mother's mother's mother was a sister to my father's father's father's father's father. So Barack and I are actually his mother and I are seventh cousins, you know, so I don't know that I could call Barack and maybe I should call him before he leaves the White House. He goes, let's see if he'll let me stay there. So my father really is a world class genealogist. Very, very, very good.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] And he was a physician.

Vance Allred [00:17:46] And he was a physician. He became a naturopathic physician. And within the naturopathic community, he was the best of the best.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] But he was a legitimate M.D.

Vance Allred [00:17:58] no naturopathic physician.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Is that different than us. That's not.

Vance Allred [00:18:02] It's similar to osteopathy. It is.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] Was he called a doctor and he

Vance Allred [00:18:06] did have license to practice? He did have a license here. He delivered 7,000 babies at home.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Oh, wow.

Vance Allred [00:18:11] He was not licensed to practice in a hospital, so he delivered babies at home, which made him very popular for the polygamous families because he delivered almost all of their babies.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] Right.

Vance Allred [00:18:21] These were secret babies.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] But that's later.

Vance Allred [00:18:23] He's still in California. He's still in California. Right. He's still in California. And then I have heard so many stories as to why I read grandfather's diaries. I read my dad's diaries. I still don't get why exactly. My grandfather went over the edge. I don't know, but. And he felt impressed, directed. He later claimed that he had visitations angels from the other side. Later he said, well, it was actually his father came through the veil to talk to him, to tell him to write this book. Setting the leader of the church in order, which here again violates basic Mormon doctrine, you know, but my grandfather wrote a book called A Leaf in Review.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] So are you saying your grandfather returned to polygamy?

Vance Allred [00:19:03] No.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] Okay, I'm sorry, Superseded your dad.

Vance Allred [00:19:06] Yes. Okay, I contradicted you, but your question is actually correct. My grandfather, for a multitude of reasons, had these. He had several failed business ventures. And he began to the point he was always looking for the quick fix, the big buck, the big story, the big deal. And none of them happened for him. And toward the end of his life, he became very disillusioned and, you know, and for a number of reasons. But you began looking for answers and validation. And my wife and I have talked about this to great length. My wife and I moved to Montana when we were just kids. I had just barely turned 20. She was 16. We'd just been married.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Wait, wait, let's not get to that yet.

Vance Allred [00:19:47] I have to get to this point. But we talked about it later. All the people who joined the group, with only one exception, they all joined the group because of one of three things. Either something really tragically disappointing or heartbreaking that happened to them. That's the majority of them. Or they had done something really bad for which they wanted an excuse, or they wanted to do something really bad for which they wanted an excuse.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Not a good group of people.

Vance Allred [00:20:10] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Or at least difficult backgrounds, complex backgrounds.

Vance Allred [00:20:15] The majority are these people. They're good, honest people who had a tragedy happen in their life. And so here's my grandfather, and I guess it wasn't a specific tragedy from what I gather here. Again, I've talked to my siblings, some of my siblings about it, but none of us has real clear pictures to why. But my grandfather felt compelled to write this book, calling the church to repentance, accusing President Grant of being an apostate. And I won't get into that. And I have read the book. It's bitter. It's well researched, well written, but it's not a philosophically sound book and argument.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] But just to make sure, that book preceded your father coming.

Vance Allred [00:20:52] That book is one that was the

John Dehlin [00:20:54] impetus to Rulin becoming a polygamist.

Vance Allred [00:20:57] That was right, because he began a discussion with his father here. My father was very active in the church. He then began a conversation via letter with his father, back and forth. Grandfather, by that time is in southern Idaho. But then he became somehow. That's when he met the Jessups. And my Aunt Beth, my father's sister, younger sister, married Lyman Jessup. And the Jessops, that family, the Lyman Jessup family, that is the backbone. That is the backbone of the Allred, of the Allred AAUB group. And it's also the Colorado City group, the Jessups. The Jessups. They're the backbone. They're not the leaders per se, but they're the kind of like, they're the backbone. They're the most devout.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] So your grandfather got connected with the Jessups.

Vance Allred [00:21:41] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:41] And his daughter, who had already started the flds.

Vance Allred [00:21:44] No, they were. They were part of it. They were. They were disciples. They were loyal followers of it. And to them he met Loren Woolley, your, my grandfather, my grandfather, his son in law, Lyman Jessup, who was later Become my dad's best friend. He's the father of my father's. He's the father of my father's youngest wife giving me all this stuff. And so my dad then was heartbroken when he read about my dad. His father's book started writing back and forth with his father. Back and forth.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Around what year was your dad.

Vance Allred [00:22:14] So we're talking about. This is about 1933-1933-1934-1935.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] This is after the Great Depression, but while the country's still reeling.

Vance Allred [00:22:24] Yeah, just reeling from economic disarray. And my dad was working very hard. He was delivering babies.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] Still in California.

Vance Allred [00:22:30] Yeah, still in California. But he had to get a second job to earn money because nobody could afford to pay him. And then this is when he started communicating with his father. And then my dad, Grandfather started questioning, and my grandfather's questions started to affect my father's questions. And this is when my dad discovered the disarray. And if I have any criticism of the LDS Church, it is this. Brother Talmage, you should not have tried to paint over polygamy and pretend that it did not exist. You created a disaster because you lied.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] So what happened?

Vance Allred [00:23:07] What happened was James Tallmadge, James Talmadge and other leaders of the church started saying that polygamy was never an essential. It was never part of the love the Mormon religion. It was never in the press or just to Mormons in their basic gospel doctrine books. You know, you start. You go back and read in them. You read, you know, and all the talks that were given. The polygamy was never a commandment. It was never. It was never for everybody to do. It was an incidental and all this other stuff. And they then began to say that there was no record of all these different things, that is there a chance

John Dehlin [00:23:36] he didn't know any better, that he had been missing?

Vance Allred [00:23:39] James Talmadge was a PhD.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] So you think he knew better?

Vance Allred [00:23:42] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely did.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] So you think he was knowingly deceiving people?

Vance Allred [00:23:47] I think he was knowingly doing what he thought was best for them and best for the church. And we all know that people, oftentimes, when they get in positions of leadership, decide that it's better to tell a little white lie to save people from

John Dehlin [00:23:59] doing something bad and to protect the institution.

Vance Allred [00:24:02] Absolutely and absolutely. That's. It's institutionalized propaganda to. It's institutionalized abuse. Let's face it. That's what it says. And keep in mind, I love Mormonism. I love the Mormon Church, but they did a tremendous amount of damage, denying it.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] And how did that relate to your grandpa and your dad? How much saying that led to.

Vance Allred [00:24:21] What led to my father going back and started reading? Well, that Biggie Myung said that it is essential. Heber Sea Kimmel said that it is essential. And then saying that there were no more plural marriages authorized after the manifesto. And then suddenly my dad says, whoa, wait a minute. I was born in Mexico. I am a product of that. And so then that caused him to start to read and study. And this, of course, started to freak out his first wife. They had three little children. They had four. Their first one had died. And so imagine this beautiful young woman married to this handsome young doctor, and she thinks she has a wonderful life. He's very active in the church. They have a beautiful future together. And then her husband starts finding these books called Journals of Discourses.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] Yeah, yeah. If Talmage just owned up to it, said, we did it, but now we

Vance Allred [00:25:05] did it, we don't do it anymore,

John Dehlin [00:25:07] then your dad is like, okay, well, we've made right, and he's not lying, and it's consistent with the past. But instead your dad finds the truth, which contradicts the modern leaders, but he still believes in Joseph Smith, so it pushes him in the fundamentalist direction. Is that what you're saying?

Vance Allred [00:25:24] You deserve an A.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] Thank you.

Vance Allred [00:25:26] Very well. It's really. You actually described it very succinctly. That's really the problem. And that's what caused most people in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s to leave the LDS Church is when they went back and I call it the historical dissonance to find that Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Joseph Smith did teach, you know, big men did teach the Adam God doctrine. I don't even know if you know about that. But.

Vance Allred [00:25:53] But the very identity and notion of God. Joseph Smith said the first principle of the gospel is understand the basis of the nature and character of God. Vicki Myung said that. Adam. Yeah, of course, Michael. Adam's our father and our God. And you can get excommunicated in the church to that. You believe in Charles Darwin. You go to byu, you study Charles Darwin's series. That's great. But if you believe in the teachings of Brigham Young at Brigham Young University, you get excommunicated in the church. Pardon me. That is funny to me. That is funny. And every time I mention that around my reading about Mormon friends, they do not think it is funny, but I think it is funny.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] So your dad. So Rulin's first wife didn't love Polygamy?

Vance Allred [00:26:27] No, no, she did not. So she was really frightened of it. But by this time, some of my dad's brothers and sisters were getting married into polygamy, starting to have children. And so then my dad started studying these things and started reading them. And so here then comes the real great dissonance. The first my dad told me, so many stretched truths were down and outright lies. This is my favorite one from this era.

Vance Allred [00:26:49] And so years later, I met one of my sisters from my dad's first wife. That's a great story. She actually later came to our seating room. We were married in the LDS temple in Salt Lake. A wonderful woman. So I really freaked her out. First time she'd ever met me was at this big convention. And her son in law brought her up to me to introduce us together. And she advances.

Vance Allred [00:27:08] I won't say her name. And right away I just looked at her And I said, November 8, 1933. I knew her birthday, which convinced her right away that I was her brother. But she came back to me later, she said, tell me about dad.

Vance Allred [00:27:21] Because what happened real briefly is that my dad started studying all of these teachings of the former prophets, the dead leaders of the church. And he started questioning things. And dad always told us this remarkably moving story about how he was called before this take high council in Los Angeles.

Vance Allred [00:27:37] And he had, and he tried to defend himself and finally the president of the stake finally told him, according to that, the president of the stake. So, Brother Albert, I want you to make me a promise. I want you to promise that for the next three months you will not read any of those things, you won't read any of those talks, you won't read any of those, any of their teachings. In fact, don't read any of the histories, don't read any of the scriptures for the next three months. Just don't read anything. And I promise you, if you don't read any of those things within three months, you'll no longer have a testimony of any of those things.

Vance Allred [00:28:06] And dad said, you know why you tell it? My dad is a very dramatic man, phenomenal speaker, very charismatic. You'd have to be to get 7,000 people to give you all of the money. And he said, when I went home and I thought about it, I woke up the next morning, I called him on the phone, I said, president, I'm not going to keep that promise because I don't think you had the right to make me commit to that promise. Because if I don't read the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets. Within three months, I won't have any testimony at all.

Vance Allred [00:28:33] And so he continued to read them. Years later, 1980, 1994 I tell this story to my sister who grew up. She's the daughter of the woman who was left behind, whose heart rebroken. And I told her that story and she got this look on her face. She leaves, no. The President of the Church asked him to only read the Scriptures. Oh, only read the scriptures. Different, different version, which I know is true because later I sat on a high council and that's what was always told. Everybody only read the Scriptures. You read only the Scriptures. Read the Scriptures every day and only the Scriptures. We promise you, within a certain amount of time, you will get your testimony back.

Vance Allred [00:29:13] And so I know there's no way in the world. My father, who had been told not to read the Scriptures, that was my father's excuse for then saying, well, the leaders of the church are not telling the truth, therefore, so where is the authority? And that's when he first met John Barlow and Joseph W. Mustard. And those are two of the four bearers of the Warren Jeffs group.

Vance Allred [00:29:34] In fact, most polygamous leaders come from that group of men. And I won't get into all of that because here I'm so sick of these egotistical little Napoleons standing on their pulpits and saying, like my daughter Vanessa said, it's like they're a bunch of roosters. Like a bunch of roosters on top of a pile of manure. I hold the kings.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] I O the kings.

Vance Allred [00:29:53] No, please, no Swedes. And they're arrogant, pompous, and without, and with very few exceptions, they're just, they're idiots. Poorly educated, incredibly, incredibly egotistical, self righteous, pompous, evil men who when you find out and get closer, you find have done some really awful things in their lives. And they wrap themselves around with power.

Vance Allred [00:30:17] And I can say my father was not one of those. He was a very honest man in his own way. Anything to dealing with money, anything dealing with treatment of other people, anything dealing with women or any kind of sexual relationships. The man was a Puritan, and I believe that with all my heart. I've had not intimate but very tactful conversations with my seven mothers.

Vance Allred [00:30:42] Actually just six. One of them died. Anyway, I'm getting too specific. But they all let me know that my father was the perfect gentleman at all times. And so most polygamous leaders. I'm generalizing, I'm being unfair. I have known some very good polygamous leaders, but as a Rule. In my opinion, most of them are perverts. They're sexual predators. And my father was not one.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] So did Rulon's first wife come along? No, she didn't come along.

Vance Allred [00:31:15] You're stating my thunder. That's my next story.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] All right, I'm ready.

Vance Allred [00:31:18] So dad always told us a story about how after he came home from that meeting, he called US President on the phone and says, I'm not going to give up reading the scriptures. I'm going to keep reading the scriptures. Then his wife told him to leave.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] To leave?

Vance Allred [00:31:30] To leave her.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Oh, she kicked him out.

Vance Allred [00:31:33] She kicked him out.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:31:35] And I heard this story about so many times that she took his children away from him. And my dad was standing up, tearing face. And the scary thing is I know he really believed it. He had convinced himself. And it's an alright family tendency, I can tell you that I had the tendency, which I told my wife when she was 16 and first married her, to don't let me do that. Whenever I start, start telling stories, start rearranging the facts, slap me on the face, straighten me out real fast. My son will tell you that I have a tendency to do that. Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] You could be a Donald Trump supporter.

Vance Allred [00:32:05] I could be a Donald Trump supporter, Yeah. I used to believe in all these theories and all this other stuff. So anyway, so the same thing later, I'm later having the same conversation with my same sister and I'm talking to her and she said, he told you mom left him.

Vance Allred [00:32:21] He walked out on us. My dad left her, left the kids, didn't pay any child support, nothing. He just simply left, just devastated, walked away from her. And then he. Within a very short time, my dad had become involved with these men, Loren Joseph Mutzer and John White Barlow. They were members of Lawrence E. Wolley's council. They were his apostles. Lawrence E. Wolley called this group of seven men to be his counselors. And these were two of them. They both would become rivals to claim who's the head of the group and whatnot. And my father gravitated to Joseph Musser, who was a very well read, very intelligent man.

Vance Allred [00:33:02] In fact, his father, a. Milton Musser, was the assistant historian of the church. Very well read man. And he was the chief editor to a lot of BH Roberts and Wilfred Ritter's works. So he's very well remanded. So his son, Joseph Muster, got to go into the church historian's office and see a lot of things. So he would always say, I've seen the records, I've Seen the things, but, you know, but he couldn't produce the copies. But he, that gave him this incredible mystique that he could quote, tell things what was really in the church historian's office that none of the rest of us could see.

Vance Allred [00:33:33] But my dad was gravitated toward him. But John barlow had a 15 year old daughter that my dad was gravitating towards. And so Your dad was 29. He met my Aunt Ruth. She was this sweet, beautiful 15 year old girl, very voluptuous. My mother would say she was very ripe. And I say this with love and respect, but she was what I would call a depressed, a depressed intelligence, you know, special ed, for example, and don't mean to say she was wonderful. We absolutely. She had a huge heart, we loved her heart, but she was not nearly on the level of my father's otherwise, but she was 15.

Vance Allred [00:34:09] And then my mother was living in Southern California and her brother, her brother had heard of these guys in this, they come to this ward, starting these little whispers around. And one of the most young men named Otho Allred, my father's brother. And so then Russell came home one night. My mother was 25 years old, beautiful woman, but she was a large woman and you know, bigger than a lot of the men. And she didn't have hardly anybody ever interested in her.

Vance Allred [00:34:40] And you know, typical, she wanted to be married. She was a real great, proud Mormon ancestry. In fact, her grandmother's story has been told from the pulpit many times. She was one of the Mormon handcart company stories. And it's a great story which we'll get into. But her parents, all of her descendants, very proud of it. And they know who they are, but they're all monarchical. That side of family stayed all totally monogamous, no polygamy at all on my mother's side.

Vance Allred [00:35:05] And so then my mother's brother, my mother's brother said, myrtle, you need to come to this meeting with me tonight. And so my mother, this was Tuesday night, my mother went to this cottage meeting and she saw my father talk. He stood up and he talked about how because he had accepted the fullness of the gospel and gained a testimony that his wife was leaving him. And so she was introduced to him that night

John Dehlin [00:35:32] as his third wife. Right?

Vance Allred [00:35:34] No, she. No, no, no, you're getting ahead of me. No, he didn't, he hadn't married any of these girls yet. Okay, okay, you're thinking logically.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] But you mentioned the one previous.

Vance Allred [00:35:44] I'm trying to put that into context. And so this Is on Tuesday that my mother met him. On Sunday, he sees her again. He takes her outside of this meeting that they're having. He says, I just feel impressed by the spirit to ask you to be my wife. And my mother said yes. And the following Saturday, they got married.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] And he had not married the other woman?

Vance Allred [00:36:07] No, he hadn't yet. And he told her at the time of the wedding I was going to marry. He showed up. The stories are too long to tell, give you the whole background. But my father said, we showed up with John Barlow. They're both dressed in suits. My mother was helping my brother clean his house. And she was dressed in a house coat. She had her hair in a wrap. And I came in and my father told my mother, well, brother John says that I should marry you now. Before he goes back to Salt Lake City so he could perform the marriage. My mother says, well, now I don't have any witnesses whatever. Well, your brother and his wife could be the witnesses. Well, what about Ruth? Well, I'll marry her later. And so they stood up and my father and my mother were married.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] So that's your dad's second wife.

Vance Allred [00:36:45] Second wife. And then five days later, he married Ruth, who was 10 years younger than she was. Okay, 10 years and one day. 10 years and three days younger. And then six months later, he married Melba, who was nine years and one day younger than my mother. And then six months later, he married Melba's sister, Mabel.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Wow. So he's not in terror.

Vance Allred [00:37:05] And then six months later, he married Athleen, the love of his life. And in six months later. I'm exaggerating. It wasn't really quite that close in sequence, but it was just this whirlwind thing. And then suddenly my father had five wives and no children.

Vance Allred [00:37:20] And everybody thought he was practicing birth control. And I think the fact that my mother's room didn't have bedroom, didn't have a door on it, might have had something to do with it. But then finally, Aunt Ruth had her first baby in 1938. So almost three years after my father had married my mother, he had younger wife, had a first one and then the other started having children. But then my mother, bless her heart, for whatever reasons, did not conceive. So she married my dad when she was 25. And she acted as midwife to delivery of 18 children given to my father by her younger wives, her younger sister wives.

Vance Allred [00:37:59] And how my mother managed to remain stalwart and faithful and bottle up her emotions and keep a lid on her feelings that Was always. She used to tell me, don't have feelings. If you don't have feelings, you can't get hurt.

Vance Allred [00:38:14] And talk about a stiff upper lip. She would have made a brilliant drill sergeant in the British army keeping that upper lip. And I realized now, because she had to, she had to. Seeing my father fall in love with these four young women, beautiful young women, and have children by them.

Vance Allred [00:38:37] And then later he married Leona Jeffs. She's the sister of Rulan Jeffs. What's the odd. How many women have a brother named Rulon? And then how many women who have a brother named Rulon marry a man named Rulon? So Rulon Allred and Rulan Jess became their arch rivals. My Aunt Leona was caught in the middle of that.

Vance Allred [00:38:54] And so then fast forward. In 1944, there were the arrests, and all these polygamists were rounded up. And here again, everybody tells me all these different numbers. I think it was about 16 of them. When I go back and read the records.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] Short Creek.

Vance Allred [00:39:07] The Short Creek and all. Yeah, these are all affiliated with Short Creek. By this time. They had some up in Idaho and around the Mud Lake area and then Colorado City. We used to call it Short Creek then. And then many of them here in Salt Lake City. And so my father was arrested in 1944, and he. And where was he living at the time? He was living there in Salt Lake City, right where I was born, which is 4851 South 1300 East, Salt Lake City, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] What area of Salt Lake is that generally?

Vance Allred [00:39:35] Well, it's the thing. It's close to Cottonwood High School.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:39:37] Close to Cottonwood Mall. Cottonwood Mile. Cottonwood Mall is a mile to the east. Cottonwood High School is a mile to the south. And so. So here my dad was arrested. It wasn't like this terrible, awful thing. They mugged him, they frictioned him, all this stuff, but they arrested him and then all of his wives and took them to jail. And this was one of the. Pardon me, those of you who really devoured the lds, and until last year, with the church's position on children of gay marriage, I was really devout, too. This is another thing where the brethren were not thinking this one through. It's World War II, for crying out loud.

Vance Allred [00:40:15] Normandy Landings, 1944. Okay, think about this. And my dad, my dad was so charismatic, and he was at the trials, and he was this charismatic, brilliant, very handsome young man. I mean, the guy, he could quote Shakespeare. True story. I was studying Shakespeare in high school when I was Stammering. And stuttering My mother said, why don't you have your dad help you? This is one of the days my dad was at my mother's house once every fifth day. And so I started stumbling through these lines from Julius Caesars. And my father recited the whole thing for me, let me through it. And he said, act one, scene one, whatever.

Vance Allred [00:40:46] He could do that. Just this brilliant, charismatic man. And so he stood up at the, he was on the witness stand to testify why he was doing that. Very charismatic. And the news cameras were there, the pictures were taken. Life magazine did this five page center spread thing. When I say standards, people think Playboy magazine, of course, but it was this Life magazine.

Vance Allred [00:41:10] And this went out in spring of 1945. And here my dad's talking about wanting to live his religion. Here's a picture of my mother and my father in my dad's office and she's his secretary. And there's a picture that shown. And my dad was, he was such a showman, show off, whatever. But they wanted to take a picture of him and his wife and he said, well, okay, let's really do this together. He had this big house and it's still there. It's the house I was born. In fact, I think 17 of us were actually born there in that house.

Vance Allred [00:41:41] And so my dad grabbed his mother and two of my uncle's wives were there and his sisters, two of his sisters were there today. So he grabbed his brother's wives and his sisters and his mother and his own six wives, got them together for this picture and with all these little kids in front of them. And they're a beautiful family. My father was a very handsome man. My mothers were gorgeous. They were beautiful women. And then this went out and to

John Dehlin [00:42:12] make it look like you had more wives than you. Really?

Vance Allred [00:42:13] Oh, yeah. Well, when people read it, they would read, don't. Not all of the women in this picture are Dr. Rhodes wives. Four of them are sisters, I'm saying. But it just grabbed you, just grabbed you. Which is what my father was aiming for, I'm sure, but. And I had no idea how many of them. But think about this. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, thousands of letters were written by GIs. I get choked up thinking about this. And they wrote the governor of Utah, they wrote the president of the Mormon Church, and they said, why can't you Mormons let those people live their own religion? Why don't you respect their right to live their religion according to what, your 10th article? They said.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Because they're fighting, they're Fighting for religious freedom.

Vance Allred [00:43:01] Here we are over in Europe or here we are in Japan in the islands. I'm sitting here next to my dead, dead friends. I'm burying. And the reason why we're doing this, to protect our liberties back at home. And why won't you Mormons let those people have the freedom of protection?

John Dehlin [00:43:16] So you're saying it was the LDS Church that was sort of the impetus?

Vance Allred [00:43:19] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely Nothing happens in Utah without the LDS Church getting involved in 2016, you think? In 1944.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] So do we know why the LDS Church was. I had no idea in the 40s going after polygamists. They were just worried that. I'm sure it was, that people kept associating LDS Church with polygamists and they wanted to clean out the polygamists so that they could leave that part of our history behind. Is that what you're thinking?

Vance Allred [00:43:43] And also section 121. It is the nature and disposition of almost all men once they get little authority, whereas they suppose they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. If you're not Mormon, you don't understand what I just said. But if you're Mormon, you know exactly what I just quoted. Section121.

Vance Allred [00:43:57] And so my Aunt Melba went. I first heard this story from Aunt Melba and she used to cut my hair not very far away from here. She was one of my. My dad married a set of twins and they always lived right next door to each other. And Aunt Melbourne, my dad's secretary and his nurse, and she told me the story one day she actually showed me some of those letters.

Vance Allred [00:44:15] And a lot of them were really Dr. Rulan C. Allwood and wives, Sawick City, Utah. Of course, Solick wasn't that mispredive. They all knew who my dad was. And talk about egg on their face, I can't imagine. And then the criticism Mormon Church got for that. And it was terrible. And so after that, plus also somebody in the LDS Church had failed to do the math on this. You have a polygamist who has eight wives and 47 children, who's supporting his wives and 48 children. And then you send them to prison. Oh, who's going to have to support those wives and kids? Wow, what a revolutionary idea.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] And it wasn't just him. It was lots of families, lots of

Vance Allred [00:44:53] others, 18 of them. And so then the. So then people from the state of Utah went to the men in prison and they said, well, if you will promise not to have any more relations with your wives, will let you Off. And some of the men refused to sign it because they all knew they really wouldn't keep that promise. But my father and Joseph Messer and John Barlow, they were there for five years and they said, no, sign it. Go home for wives. And my mother always claimed that it was her prayers that got them sent home because she was 30.

Vance Allred [00:45:24] She was 35 years old when dad went to prison. He was going away for five years. She didn't think she'd ever have any kids. And so she began praying and praying and praying. And then she got word that he was coming home.

Vance Allred [00:45:36] So my dad assigned that, saying he wouldn't have any more children. But she came home and she had my brother X. And then of course, three months later, James was born, and three months later Marvin was born. So it was very obvious my dad didn't keep that promise. But that's my story. And then, so then two years later, my brother Lloyd was born. And then I'm the caboose. I was my.

How Rulon Allred Built the AUB Community

John Dehlin [00:45:57] So what year were you born?

Vance Allred [00:45:58] I was born in 1951.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] So how did your dad become the leader of a group?

Vance Allred [00:46:03] Great question. It's a real interesting story and one that was particularly significant to me when I found myself in a parallel situation with my uncle Owen A. Allred. By the time my dad got his quote, unquote calling, there had already started to be some fragmentation in the group. And after the death of Loren Woolley, John Barlow started calling men to be members of the Quorum, the equivalent of Mormon. They called the council. There was no specific number of them, however many was in it. But there were those who believed very strongly that they should be the ones to decide who married who and started assigning girls to men and they started marrying these younger women.

Vance Allred [00:46:48] And my dad had his. His own practice. He had this big house in Salt Lake City and more than a few young girls were sent to Salt Lake City to his house to have their babies. And my mother was one of my dad's midwives. And I don't know how many of his babies she assisted him with. Hundreds and hundreds. I don't know the number, but very rarely would she talk about it. She one time talked about this girl who was 13 years old. Crying for her mom. They wouldn't even let her mother come with her.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] So it was a 13 year old having a baby, having a baby.

Vance Allred [00:47:28] And my mother took care of the little girl. And so that was my view of marrying him and Laura, ruling Jeff's and Roy Johnson and all those other. I'm ashamed to Be a member of the same gender as those men. I'm ashamed to belong to the same religion as men. Claim to be contempt for them, absolute contempt.

Vance Allred [00:47:55] But that was my father's big deal. Joseph Muster said there will be when John Barlow died. And my dad had a real falling out with his own father in law before then. And dad gravitated to Joe the Muzzer over this issue.

Vance Allred [00:48:10] You do not have the right to decide who girl marries and you do not take her away from her mother and father over their objections. You do not assign her to somebody. You do not just kind of like to stop the rule. Warren went to prison. Finally. Somebody went to jail for that, for crying out loud. But that started back then. And that's when my dad.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] Which decade?

Vance Allred [00:48:29] About this is 1940s.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] Still in the 40s.

Vance Allred [00:48:32] Late 40s.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] Still in the 40s.

Vance Allred [00:48:33] Late 40s. But now we're coming up into the 1950s. Okay, and then, so then in 1950s, 1950. 1950, Joseph Mutzer, who by that time he was the oldest member of the group and the senior in calling, but the younger man from Shortcrieker didn't support him in it. Even his own son, Guy Musser, didn't support him so. Well, you're too old, you know, out to pastor. We're the ones who hold the keys. They decided. Well, you know, they did the palace. Could we have the keys?

John Dehlin [00:49:00] It's a key for all.

Vance Allred [00:49:01] Yeah, key for all. And so then Joseph Muster called my father to be apostle, and they later called him to be his successor. And Joseph Muster called a new council, in essence pushing all the others aside and said, this is the new and improved version.

Vance Allred [00:49:16] We starting zero here, you know. And so then that was 1950. They called my dad. And in 1953, Joseph Musser died. And by that time the Allred group had been begun. But it was really. It would fit in this. Everybody there. You could have gotten these two.

Vance Allred [00:49:33] That was my father's calling when it began. And the other group, the Colorado City group, those men held all the titles to all the land, all the money, all the bank accounts, all letters. Plus they also owned the loyalty of the thousands of people that were still following them. When I say thousands, there's not really the hundreds of adults and thousands of children. You have no idea how big these families can get really quickly with all the kids. And so I was born in that time and we lived there in the big house, White house. And I have to talk about that. Just a minute.

Vance Allred [00:50:03] The buildings. The buildings. Two of the buildings are still there. One of them's gone. But my dad bought this farm in South Salt Lake. It was real rural then, you know, you'd left Salt Lake. And even when I was a kid, I remember you're leaving Salt Lake and you're driving past the farms coming out. This was, you know, 50 years ago when I was a little kid. And so my dad had the big house and then there was a granary that my uncle built. My dad turned into a house and then the house to the south, which my uncle, other uncle had built. But then my dad bought them out.

Vance Allred [00:50:32] They went out and bought the property out in Murray where the fashion place Mollus did it. And so then my dad had all seven wives there living together. And I am the oldest child not to remember growing up there. I'm child number 33. And there's more than a year between me and my next older siblings there. My dad, it was great how the kids came in groups, you know. And so my brother Lloyd's my mother's son, but he and I are two and a half years apart. There are five sisters between us, and then there's me. They can all remember living there in that white house together.

Life Inside the Allred Polygamist Household

Vance Allred [00:51:03] And they had this idyllic childhood. They loved it. They were so happy. They had this big barn, they had a swimming pool, they had the swings, they had the playgrounds. And think about it.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] And all wives were living there.

Vance Allred [00:51:14] And they were all seven wives, all the kids living there together. And they almost needed a bus stop for themselves. And to my count, there were 27 of them got on the school bus. Imagine 27, all red kids, these blonde headed. Almost all they were blonde or redheaded getting on the bus. Nobody picked on the Allred. And they had this wonderful, idyllic life. And they all. And we younger kids were always so jealous of when they talked about it. And so then that brings me to my earliest vivid memory. 1955, July 2, 1955, my mother, I was three and a half years old and there were.

Vance Allred [00:51:50] The White House had five outside doors on it, but one of them was by the south driveway. And my vivid memory is my mother placing me on this stool right by the door. And then I remember looking up at her and she looked down at my face and she said, I need you to stay right here.

Vance Allred [00:52:07] So I sat on that stool watching my older brothers and sisters carrying everything they could, sheets, blankets, pillows, clothes, taking them out to the car to leave. And then we went into hiding. The whole family just scurried and went different directions and here again, to my siblings. I know there are so many memories, so many. And I honestly, I don't remember very well because I was little, but I've heard so many different versions as to what happened that day and who went where. But all I can say definitively is that there was no plan, no master plan. My dad. My dad was at work and he got a call, a sotto voce call.

Vance Allred [00:52:43] It was one of his patients was a deputy sheriff. And he said, Dr. Allred, they announced this morning at roll call they're going to come arrest you and your family again today.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] And so this is another raid.

Vance Allred [00:52:58] It was 1955, so the first one was 44.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] 44, 55, another raid. They didn't learn from the first one. They're doing it again.

Vance Allred [00:53:06] Yeah. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:53:08] Stupid, stupid. The only change was that the first one was 1944. Heber G. Grant was praying in the church. And this is what David McKay was. And I can't believe President McKay. Anyway, it's sad, sad, sad, sad. So they rounded up polygamous again. Fortunately, my family barely evaded them.

Vance Allred [00:53:24] One of my. One of the ladies that I got to know who later, she was there with her husband. They were monogamous, younger couple. They helped us get away. She said they beat. We beat the police by 18 minutes.

Vance Allred [00:53:35] And so then we went into hiding. That's my childhood. I don't remember growing up with all of us together. I remember living in separate houses, and dad was Uncle Jim and my mother, Uncle Jim, Uncle Jim. It's a joke, you know, he didn't want people to see that he was Daddy. A bunch of kids, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy. And so I didn't know which one of my mothers was, but they did, was they decided all of his kids was calling him Uncle Jim. My mother was my father's legal wife, and my mother's three sons were the only ones of his children born after 1944 that had birth certificates.

Vance Allred [00:54:09] Okay, so, yeah. So July 2, 1985, our family split up. And so there were six different cars went out of the driveway. Four of them were Hudsons. I don't know if you remember those. They were Hudsons. And I just remember being squished in between my mother and one of my older sisters on my right. And it's an interesting. I have to explain. I have to explain the dynamics of this. My mother was 10 years and three days older than Ruth. My mother was incredibly capable. She was very stalwart, very strong. And she was a large woman, not big. She was 5 foot 10. My dad was taller than her, but my dad, my mother weighed more than my dad did.

Vance Allred [00:54:48] She wasn't fat or big, just solid. She always talked about being a good German peasant's dog. Whereas my dad was very handsome, very muscular, sleek man. You know, he'd sing tenor. He was a great dancer. I never ever once saw my dad hold my mother on his lap.

Vance Allred [00:55:05] I never once saw him pick her up and swing around. I saw him do that with all the other wives. And my mother always kept the stiff up her lip. She was very supportive, very loving to the younger sister wives. She was always their advocate. She was their champion.

Vance Allred [00:55:21] She never said. I never heard my mother say a negative thing about any of her sister wives. She loved them. She just loved them all. And so she was nine years older, nine years older than the twins, 10 years older than Ruth and Ethel, seven years older than Aunt Leona. And she was 20 years younger, older than Aunt Ethel. And so these were not just her sister wives, these were her younger sisters. She loved them. I do know that oftentimes they had grounds to be offended by her because when she walked in, she just took charge. She just took charge. That's how she was and that's how she managed to hold onto her feelings.

Vance Allred [00:55:56] When she was older, she and I had some talks. My father was still alive at the time, but there were a few times. The only times I ever saw get emotional is when she started to talk about dad. And it was just obvious that she just loved him and adored him and just longed for him. But I never ever saw any romance between the two of them, ever.

Vance Allred [00:56:17] And part of that, as I'm sure, is that my mother was not the type to have wanted to show public display of affection. But I do know it really hurt her, especially Aunt Etheline. My dad, Anthony, was my dad's favorite wife. And I can say that, I mean, we all know she was.

Vance Allred [00:56:35] She was wonderful because she knew she was his favorite. She was so careful to make sure that nobody ever got hurt by it the best she could. Whenever we were in a room together, wherever dad was, she was as far away as she could be from him. They got in the car together. She always sat in the backseat where he could not see her in his rearview mirror. She was so classy, just so classy. She would not allow that favoritism spill out of their bedroom. And gosh, I loved her.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] You knew her?

Vance Allred [00:57:08] Oh, absolutely. I knew them all. Aunt Leon. I didn't know Aunt. I was only six, only five when Aunt Leon Left my dad, but I knew all the wives. Sweet, wonderful women. But she's the one that has my heart the most, I think, because, I mean, we all knew she was Dad's favorite wife. He couldn't help but his face lit up when she walked. She was gorgeous. Picture Marilyn Monroe with auburn hair and brown eyes. That was my Aunt Lee. And she was the first cousin to Ruth. She was the first cousin once we moved to my Aunt Ruth, and they were the same age. But anyway, she was just wonderful. But wherever she. The reason why I'm saying this. Three years. My dad was in hiding for three years. But just so happened. Just happened. Wherever Athlean settled, that's where my dad ended up living.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Let me ask you this. How did your father's wives sort of get sold intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, into the principle? Do you have a sense for kind

Vance Allred [00:58:16] of a pattern for how it happened? All of them?

John Dehlin [00:58:19] How does it happen?

Vance Allred [00:58:21] All I would say is that women who get involved in polygamy are either victims who are manipulated and controlled by domineering men or domineering parents who sell another, or these really highly intelligent, incredibly driven spiritual giants who want to serve God. And I'm not going to say what percentage is which. All I know is that all of my father's wives were in that same category.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] The second category, intellectual.

Vance Allred [00:58:54] Aunt Ruth was not intellectual in that she couldn't quote chapter, verse, or page number, but she had this powerful testimony and she could explain it to you. And I hope I'm not painting her in a negative way. She had 13 children. We all loved her. But I'm just saying she was not the intellectual giant. The others were my Aunt Ethel, who married me. She was only 15 when she married my dad. She didn't graduate from high school. She didn't have a college degree, but, boy, she knew the gospel.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] And she and these women associated polygamy with serving God.

Vance Allred [00:59:25] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And they. And they loved each other. They loved each other. I have never seen an example, I have to say, dad and mothers, and I think my mothers. You did a wonderful job, and you are responsible for the heartache all of us have received. Because I sat down with my sisters and brothers and we all agree that they did us all a terrible disservice because they made it look easy. They made it look wonderful, rewarding, and the greatest cause of happiness that man or woman could experience. That's what my parents did to us. And not one of us has had a good story, but they sure did.

Vance Allred [00:59:59] And how they did it? I cannot explain. And that's what drew people to my father. It wasn't his preaching. It wasn't his intellectual expertise. And he was a brilliant speaker. He was a brilliant man. But it was watching those wives with him and more importantly, with each other and even more importantly, with us.

Vance Allred [01:00:19] Because it didn't matter to whose home I went or whose house I was in. I could go to the refrigerator, I could open it up. And they loved me. Those women absolutely loved me. They adored me. They advised me, they counseled me. Sometimes I go to my Aunt Melbourne for advice. Sometimes I go to Aunt Athlete for vice. I didn't like when my mother told me I'd go to, you know, what are the other wives? And they always support my mother. But they could explain things to you. I don't know if I make any sense, you know? And Ruth's daughters always came to my mother, wanted her advice. And you didn't get a sense there

John Dehlin [01:00:54] was a lot of rivalry.

Vance Allred [01:00:55] Oh, heavens, no.

John Dehlin [01:00:56] Between the ones?

Vance Allred [01:00:56] No, not at all. I know I'm sounding like I'm selling you a soap story, but I'm not. I'm telling you. I'm telling you, it's the only family like that. Maybe Brigham Young, maybe John Taylor, I don't know. But in my lifetime, it's the only one I've seen like that. I've seen a lot of really wonderful women. A lot of my sisters have done a wonderful job.

Vance Allred [01:01:16] I have. How many? Anyway, let me see. I have some sisters who've married sets of sisters who've married the same man. And they tried really hard. Tried really, really hard. But none of them has been able to recreate what our parents did. So my parents, my mothers. My mothers especially, were just incredible women. Incredible women. And so there is a happy story. And they honestly, absolutely, genuinely loved each other.

Vance Allred [01:01:45] Three things I'd like to tell about that real briefly. And one of them is that, as I mentioned before, wherever dad. Wherever Anna Lean lived, dad always ended up going there. And she worked so hard to try to make that palatable and unoffensive. And whenever. Whenever any one of the other wives was in her house, she was not.

Vance Allred [01:02:06] She made sure that they, you know, they went to see that she was gone. She was so careful of their feelings. And I. I know she could have rubbed it in. She could have lorded it over. She did just exactly the opposite. Just a classy, classy lady. And then my dad, the twins. My dad married a set of twins, Mabel and Elva. Oh, they were so sweet. Just classy, beautiful women. So talented.

Vance Allred [01:02:29] And then Leona I didn't know very well. Unfortunately. I loved her. She was always wonderful to me. But she was ruling Jeff's sister. This guy was such an absolute skunk. He married a girl named Ruth Jessup who was a sister to my aunt Ethel. They were full sisters. He married Ruth Jessup. And after he married Ruth Jessup, he says, you're my wife now. You're no longer a Jessop. You will not go home.

Vance Allred [01:02:57] And to my knowledge, she only lived three miles away. She not once went back to her parents house. I remember I was, I think seven, I was seven or eight years old when he allowed her, for whatever reason, I don't know what the deal was, he allowed her to go back and see her family and all of her brothers and sisters. The Jessup family, the Lyman Jessup family. These are the most loyal family I have ever seen.

Vance Allred [01:03:18] If anything happens to anyone of them, they all show up. They all show up. So supportive. But they all came together from all over the place. They got there and I was there too. I'm not related to her genetically, but you know, she was my Annettel sister. And so my mother and I and we went there. I remember her walking down the stairs. It was like seeing Scarlett o' Hara come down the stairs and Gone with the Wind. And they were all there in bated breath, waiting to see the sister Ruth. They were so happy and wonderful. And that son of a bitch wouldn't allow her to see her family.

Vance Allred [01:03:49] This is ruling Jeff's roaring. Jeff's father, absolute skunks. He totally cut her off from her family. But how about his sister? Oh heavens no. His sister marries my dad. He did absolutely everything he possibly could for seven years to poison, poison, poison, poison her mind against my dad.

Vance Allred [01:04:11] We were living in Pocatello. My mother and Aunt Ethel and Aunt Leona were living there in Pocatello at the same time. The different wives moved around different places. But during the time when I was becoming aware, I was 4, 5 and 6 years old living in Pocatello. And my mother worked, had a full time job. Aunt Leona got a full time job at First Security bank which she kept until she retired.

Vance Allred [01:04:31] And my aunt Ethel did the daycare. And my Aunt Ethel, gosh, I loved her. This beautiful, beautiful girl. She was 24 years younger than my dad, 20 years younger than my mother. Beautiful, beautiful, bright blue eyes and dark hair.

Vance Allred [01:04:47] She could do anything and everything. And she babysat us. And we would. Anneth would make me a draft. She'd take a piece of scissors. Scissors and a piece of paper free hen she could cut a giraffe. Just magical. She didn't go to high school. She didn't have a good education.

Vance Allred [01:05:07] Aunt Ethel was living in the same house as Aunt Leona. It's her sister Ruth Jessup that is not allowed to see her. Even though they grew up together. They slept in the same bed together. She hadn't seen Ruth. She hadn't seen Ruth for years. And yet her skunk of a brother in law, Leona's brother, he would come up to Aunt Leona's house every single week to see her without my dad's permission, against my dad's permission, without my dad's consent. And he would show up, bring Roy Johnson with him or Guy Musser. I'm getting all agitated.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] Not a big Jessup fan.

Vance Allred [01:05:45] No, I'm a Jessup fan. I'm not a Jeffs fan.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] That's what I mean.

Vance Allred [01:05:49] Warren Jeffs. Yeah, that's what I mean. So talk about hypocrisy. He would not allow his wife to see any of her siblings. But he insisted. He would not recognize my father. He would not recognize any of us all. He wouldn't respect anything. He did everything he could and he convinced her to leave him and go join him.

Vance Allred [01:06:08] And she had a nice house up in Ramona. She moved to Salt Lake City. She bought a house. Finally he convinced her to sell her house she gave him. He told her he was going to build her a house. I don't know if you ever heard of the Jeff's complex up there at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon. Anyway, he had this beautiful house. Of course it's all his, the property, his wife's and kids. But he convinced Aunt Leona, gave him his money, gave him her money and he would build her house. Never did. He gave her one bedroom in one of his houses. Absolute skunk. But because of that, I lost Jimmy and Richard and Margaret and we were hardly ever allowed to see them.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] Those are siblings.

Vance Allred [01:06:43] They're my siblings.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Yeah.

Vance Allred [01:06:45] Margaret's a year older than me and I've seen her three times in the last 50 years and she lives just a few miles away. That's the Warren Jeffs story. That's the Rulin Jeffs.

Childhood in Hiding From Authorities

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 676

Vance Allred [00:00:00] And so then we're living in Idaho, in Pocatello. And my mother got a job for Marilyn Merrill. It's a law firm. My mother was an incredible secretary, stenographer. What could she type? Unbelievable. Typist. And this was a firm that had the predecessor, the Xerox. You might be old enough to remember when you got a birth certificate. It was white letters on a black background before the Xerox machines came out. And it was a big deal to get a copy. I remember this machine. It was this big machine, about the size of a car. Not really, but when I was little, my little kid's eyes, the thing would make all these noise and little thing would come out and was still wet.

Vance Allred [00:00:33] And it was the birth certificate. Black background, white print on it. Well, my dad went to prison in 1944. And so he, quote, unquote, paid the price for the children born before 1944. But then they came to arrest him in 1955, and we had to go into hiding. So none of the children between 1944 and 1955 had a birth certificate except for my mother's three sons.

Vance Allred [00:00:54] My mother had a first son in 1940, and my brother X, he's number 24 out of 48, you know, so think in mind. So think about all my dad's dad's kids. The first half were born before her son.

Vance Allred [00:01:04] And so it came time to get us in school. And you had to have a birth certificate to get into school. Well, 11 of the kids did not have birth certificates. 11 of them. And so my mother managed on her lunch hours.

Vance Allred [00:01:18] My mother managed on her lunch hour to make forgeries, to make false copies. She took our birth certificates, made copies of them, did cut and paste. Then she created birth certificates for all of my other 11 brothers and sisters who did not have birth certificates. So they could all get in different schools. They all had different. They went to school with different last names. So my two brothers and I were the only ones who were named all red out of the siblings my age.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] And again, you didn't refer to your dad as Reuben?

Vance Allred [00:01:48] No, we didn't. But even though legally, I was legally his son. But they called. When we went into hiding, 1955 to 1958, we all called him Uncle Jim.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Uncle Jim.

Vance Allred [00:02:01] Yeah, all called him Uncle Jim. That created. That created a problem, though. And then later that my Aunt Ruth became pregnant and the kids talked about, you know, and my mom's pregnant. Uncle Jim. Uncle Jim came to see her. That was the only thing about it. My dad didn't think was very funny.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] They knew he was their dad, right?

Vance Allred [00:02:18] Oh, Ab. Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Michael. Jim, as a cover.

Vance Allred [00:02:21] Yeah. In private. In private.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] What does it do? What does it do to sort of have this systematic lying?

Vance Allred [00:02:27] Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] What does that do?

Vance Allred [00:02:30] You are such a good interviewer. You know right where I'm going. And so here's this dichotomy. Lance talks about it in his TED Talk. You're taught not to lie, but you can't tell people who your dad is, so you have to lie to protect Daddy. And so then there are good lies and bad lies, and then pretty soon, who determines what the bad lies are and what the good lies are?

Vance Allred [00:02:53] People like my mother were never confused. My father's wives were never confused. But pretty soon, a whole bunch of people started, including me. We all became confused. You know, when can we lie and when can we not? And it creates a real problem.

Vance Allred [00:03:07] But at the same time, Lance talks about this as well. You're in hiding. Think about everything about what going in hiding does to your sense of belief as to who you are relevant to the rest of the world. You're special.

Vance Allred [00:03:21] And my heroes were Elijah the prophet, who had to hide. Elisha, who was hidden away. And then a story we read about the Jews in Jerusalem. We could relate to that. My dad. My dad, unlike most fundamentalists, hate Jews. My dad loved the Jews. He totally supported them. Great founder, great fan of the founding of Israel. But that, again, led to the feeling that we were special because we were persecuted. You know, Jesus says, blessed are you, and, you know, they spitefully use you and persecute you. And, boy, that was us. That fit us to a tee.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] So does that. Do you think that leads to a culture of deceit?

Vance Allred [00:03:56] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Yeah. So that feeds it, right?

Vance Allred [00:03:59] And then. But then it comes the point. You know, section. You know, the articles. Gosh, you know, the section 51, for example, says, you know, to obey the law of the land. But Section 98 says, I will support you in obeying the law of the land that are constitutional. So every polygamist is a constitutional attorney. They know it to a T. It's

John Dehlin [00:04:17] a way to justify.

Vance Allred [00:04:18] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Breaking the law.

Vance Allred [00:04:20] Anything they want to, they can. Some of my own brothers are like this. They can justify anything. They can. Just every single law there is is unconstitutional.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] There really is no law.

Vance Allred [00:04:32] They have no respect for the law. My mother, however, was buried. And Ethelin, Aunt Ethel and Aunt Mabel's kids and. And Anne Atleen's kids were raised like I was great respect for the law, but a lot of my siblings were not.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] So tell me how. So your dad's building up his own sort of branch of during this time.

Vance Allred [00:04:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] Okay. So were you guys meeting in chapels? Did you meet on the frontier? What was his church like relative to what an LDS Church member would experience?

Vance Allred [00:05:07] This guy's really good. You know that? That's right where I was going next. You are so good. I can't believe this. Okay, is this a backhanded compliment? No, it really is. Really. It's on. It's really good. So picture this. I'll fast forward.

First Encounters With the Outside World

Vance Allred [00:05:20] I was in my very first day of first grade, September 5, 1957. I remember it because this is the very first time ever I was around other kids who were not polygamous kids. First time ever. My mother drops me off at school, and I walk into this room. Most of them are Mormon kids, I realized later.

Vance Allred [00:05:33] And they're talking back and forth, talking back and forth. And finally one kid looked at me and realized, you know, you don't go to church with this. No. Where do you go to church? And I said, in my house. I go to church in my house. Of course, right away, that was not a pleasant experience.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] This is Idaho, right?

Vance Allred [00:05:48] Idaho. Pocatello, Idaho. And so church was wherever our family was. And so my dad had very few followers at this time. There was a total, I think, at this time of about 15 men who followed my father and thought he held all the keys because the vast majority went with the Colorado City Group. A lot of that had to do with the fact that they controlled all the money. It's amazing how having all the money gives you validity.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Follow the money.

Vance Allred [00:06:11] Follow the money. Follow the money. My dad had no money. And then my dad went into hiding for four years. He was literally in hiding. And the FBI was looking for him and police were looking for him. He was constantly having to move around. And there were twice when our family had to move in the middle of the night because the police were getting ready to.

Vance Allred [00:06:31] Not my mother. My mother had the luxury of being, quote, unquote, the legal wife. But almost all the others had to move around from time to time because they were getting under investigation. So, Constantine, we would get together in our rooms. And in my entire childhood, I was five years old the first time I met any of my cousins.

Vance Allred [00:06:51] I had 47 brothers and sisters. It's not like I was deprived for child contact. But the first time I met my cousins, I was four years old. And then a year and a Half later, I went to school.

Vance Allred [00:07:02] I met other kids for the first time. And so my world was so very, very small. But we would have Sunday school in our room. And so always where I was, no matter where I was living, there were always three of my mothers there. And so all of the children, three mothers would get together and we'd have these wonderful lessons. And then my older sisters would take us off back in the bedroom for the 7 and 8 year olds and 9 to 10 year olds. And they had the church manuals, they got the LDS Church manuals for Sunday school and primary, and they would use those to teach us.

Vance Allred [00:07:31] And I will tell you, the Allred family did a better job of communicating and teaching their kids than anybody in Mormonism. I guarantee you that. I have a funny story. Years later at Skyline High School. I was Skyline. Skyline High School. I went to high school here. And I was the only polygamous kid. And the Mormons were not nice to me. They were very unkind.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] They knew.

Vance Allred [00:07:51] Oh, absolutely. But they recruited me to be the captain of their seminary bowl team because I knew Mormonism better than anybody in that school.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Nice. So did you use the hymn book, the LDS hymn?

Vance Allred [00:08:02] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] You sang the hymns?

Vance Allred [00:08:03] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Were there any hymns that you didn't sing? Because they weren't.

Vance Allred [00:08:06] No, but there were a few. There were a few hymns that had been made politically correct that we had to go back to within our pen and scratch them out.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Which ones?

Vance Allred [00:08:13] Do you remember, for example? Yeah. Praise to the Man, Joseph Smith, Praise the Man and communion and so forth and so on.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] It says, long will his blood, which

Vance Allred [00:08:22] was shed by assassin. Second verse now it's been changed along Dane, Illinois. Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins. Now it says plead unto heaven.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] Right. But it was stained.

Vance Allred [00:08:33] It was staying Illinois.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] So you went back to the Illinois?

Vance Allred [00:08:35] Oh, absolutely. We crossed that out. Okay. You know, and then O Ye Mountains High, by the Christian judge Charles Penrose hymn, O Ye Mountains High. And what is the verse? I can't remember. I have to have the hymn. But it says one verse that said the original verse was Every kneel.

Vance Allred [00:08:54] Every kneel, every. Every knee shall bow and tongue confess. And tongue confess. And that's been changed out. That's been made politically correct. But the other thing, my dad knew the scriptures. He knew them backwards and forwards. Of course he could. It's amazing, though, because I realized later and I have to. I'm embarrassed with this. When my dad would read the scriptures, Read the scriptures, read the scriptures. And what really came to Me, fast forward a long time later. It was actually after I joined the LDS Church. And our mentors were Jeff and Heidi Swinton. Wonderful people. I don't know. She's the one who wrote the biography of President Monson.

Vance Allred [00:09:27] She also wrote the Trail of the Joseph Smith, one that was made in a documentary. They were our mantras. They lived on our block. But I kept having this problem with this thing about ordinances and importance. It was. And I read it to Jeff and I read it, kept reading it to him. And he says that those who do not have the ordinances without these, they cannot stand the presence of God. And finally, Jeff handed about three times. Vance read it again. Finally I realized it didn't say these, it said it.

Vance Allred [00:09:54] I'd read this scripture hundreds and hundreds of times. I'd taught from that scripture. I'd quoted that scripture. And I always had these thinking. It referred to. There was a pronoun modifying ordinances, but it says it. It always said it.

Vance Allred [00:10:07] Emphasizing modifying the priesthood. My point being there were dozens and dozens of scriptures that my dad would quote just a little bit off to support his position. And even after I got my own scriptures and I started reading them and after I'd read them all and I became quite good with the scriptures, even after I joined the LDS Church, came in Main Street Mormon, I still kept quoting and reading the way my dad.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] You were primed to see them a certain way.

Vance Allred [00:10:34] And finally I went with information bias. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I came to realize that he actually that's what he believed. And so he needed to turn things so that they fit his perception.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:10:46] And I realized that we all do that. But the fact that my father, the prophet of God could do it, that was really jarring to me when I realized that my dad always had a way of explaining it.

How the Allred Group Grew and Organized

John Dehlin [00:10:58] So give us just a really brief sort of overview of like how he builds an empire or builds a large group.

Vance Allred [00:11:07] It was phenomenal. I was seven years old when we moved back to Salt Lake City and he got his entire group together. And I kid you not, they fit in an area smaller than this apartment. Adults, children, everybody. In the approximate year, this would have been 1957. 1957 through 1963. 1963. We started to get new converts, people that had left the church. There was oftentimes young couples. Another thing also is that my dad's children were growing up. And my dad encouraged my older siblings to join the church. But then they joined the church.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] The LDS Church.

Vance Allred [00:11:42] Yeah, the mainline church. And they went away and they didn't come back. So then my dad started saying, no more of that. And so he didn't. So he encouraged the rest of us to stay in the group. He didn't want us to go to the church. And those that left and went to the church, he kept trying to get to come back. And some of them he succeeded in bringing back. I have some real tragic stories from that. But then these people started coming around and investigating our group. And I realize now, as an adult, looking back on all of them, they all fit into one of those three categories.

Vance Allred [00:12:12] I could tell you the story of every single one of them. And if the wife was in favor of it, she usually had brought her husband. It wasn't the wife who was being brought by the husband. It was the wife who was bringing the husband because she had met somebody like my mother and my father's wives.

Vance Allred [00:12:32] I'm not saying they converted him, but they set such a good example. The women would say, man, I've never seen anything like this. And they would want the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] There are benefits, right? Other people to watch your kids. Like, if you're not. If you're not maybe wanting to be with the man all the time, you get a little break, right? What are other. Other benefits from a woman's point of view?

Vance Allred [00:12:57] Well, there's several things. First of all, women are allowed to go out. And the women certainly had far more independence.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] They can work.

Vance Allred [00:13:02] They can work. They can get a career. They can buy their own car. They can do all these kinds of things. They can. And I remember it got to the point my dad came over to see my mother every fifth day.

Vance Allred [00:13:12] I could look at a calendar for the next two years and tell you which day my dad would be in my house. He had this schedule. And that's what my mother wanted, and that's what Aunt Novel wanted. But it got to the point my mother would often say, in the morning, my dad was there, rulon, I love having you here, but you always put me behind in my schedule.

Vance Allred [00:13:26] You know what I'm saying? Because then they start to have their own lives beside him. But then. But, Aunt Athlean, when dad came, everything stopped. Everything stopped. When dad showed up. She didn't care what was going on. It wasn't making sense. My mother stayed on schedule.

Vance Allred [00:13:41] But the respect those women had for each other. And my dad's sisters, some of my dad's sisters were phenomenal. Same caliber of women. My Aunt Beth, for example, was married to lyima Jessup. I loved and honored. I still Do Lyma Jessup. Very honorable man, very sweet man, but not well educated.

Vance Allred [00:13:58] Beth was not quote unquote well educated. She only had a high school diploma. But she was. She was. She could take anybody on with a master's or PhD in history or literature or anything. Brilliant, brilliant woman. And she raised her kids to be that way. And so had these really remarkable women. And there were not a few, not

John Dehlin [00:14:17] a bunch of dummies.

Vance Allred [00:14:18] No. The women who converted to polygamy that I knew were either the oppressed meek lambs or these powerful, vibrant women, not dominant women. Not. I have. I have so much regard for them, all of them. I hold them all in high esteem. And I've held conversation with some of them that just like blow my doors off, you know, they just. Wow. You know, talking about something. We're talking history, you know, they're talking about the, you know, this empire, that empire, and wow. But they are the minority. Very small, I would guess. I would say. I would say less than 5%.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] So your dad starts building things up. Late 50s, right?

Vance Allred [00:14:55] The late 50s. Still yin and still very small. And most of them relatives. And so what began to happen is that the children would grow up and they'd marry and then the in laws would start to come and they started to investigate. And that's how most of it started. Because my dad and my dad's brothers, my Uncle Owen and my Uncle Marvin, Uncle Marvin married three of Lyman Joseph's daughters, his Maya death little sisters. And they were. They did a wonderful job, beautiful job. And Ethel's and uncle. Uncle Owen's family did a beautiful job. So there were these and the Jensen did. There was these. They did a beautiful job. And they started gathering people, other members of the LDS wards close by, coming in.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] All in Salt Lake.

Vance Allred [00:15:33] All in Salt Lake. There were a few.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Rather than have to be freaking out

Vance Allred [00:15:35] about those, they were. They were really freaking out. But places they know. But my family lived down in Elko, Nevada. And when people saw Aunt Mabel and Aunt Melbourne always lived next door to each other, always. And it took people a while to realize they were both married to the same man because they're identical twins.

Vance Allred [00:15:53] But then people started. Wherever my dad went, he got followers. Wherever my mothers lived, he got followers. But then in the early 60s, there was a new group of men who came in, and I guess I can use names. Man who really did it was a man named John Ray.

Vance Allred [00:16:11] He was a convert to the LS Church. Very charismatic, very well educated. Do you need to download something? And he personally Brought in about half of the converts to my father's group. He had 12 women who married him, including my mother in law.

Vance Allred [00:16:28] And then there was another group down in Cedar City. I had a lot of respect for them growing up because they were well educated. These guys all had college degrees because here again, in my dad's group, he had a college degree, but none of his followers did growing up. He's the only one with a college degree. My uncles hadn't gone to college, but he started getting these new converts that had college degrees.

Vance Allred [00:16:50] And so there were these five men in Cedar City joining my father's group. This was in about 1964. Five, six. And they came up. And by this time my uncle owned a built. He had a garage, it was like a four car garage each side of his house. And we all fit into that for years.

Vance Allred [00:17:04] And then my dad had bought the ranch in Montana, which became Pinesdale, Montana. And it's in the Bitterroot Valley. We were just there a couple days ago. It is magical. Picture this. He bought it in sections. They were not contiguous when he started buying them. But eventually it became 1,020 acres on the edge of the Bitterroot National Forest. And the nearest neighbor to the west is 110 miles away. What a perfect place for a private city, for a special place to go. And as time went by, not quite, but almost 50% of my dad's followers lived there.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] In Montana.

Vance Allred [00:17:39] In Montana. And most all of them became construction workers. And they're honorable, hard working men. And most of them, many of them are my cousins or nephews. They're almost all Jessups related to Jessups somehow or other.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Help me understand. I am running together Jeffs and Jessups, completely different families. How do you, how do we think of one? I mean, obviously you don't love the Jeffs. It's Warren Jeffs. It's lots of bad stuff. How do we think of the Jessups?

Vance Allred [00:18:03] Just to remember the Jessups. I have tremendous respect for the Jessups. I really do. They are.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] Were they part of the all rig?

Vance Allred [00:18:11] Oh, yeah. Well, about half of them. They're the backbone of both groups.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:18:16] They're the backbone of the Jessup group and the backbone of the AUB Got it. Okay. And some of them have been in leadership positions. None of them has become the man.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] Got it.

Vance Allred [00:18:26] But they're high in leaderships. And you know, and gosh, five of my sisters, six of my sisters marry Jessops. Is there a most famous Jessup like Lyman Jessup? He's the patriarch. He Was my father's brother in law. He was my father's cellmate when they were in prison together.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Okay. That's the Jessup.

Vance Allred [00:18:40] And so yeah, he married my dad's sister and then my dad married his daughter. Michael Marvin married. Married three of his daughters.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Okay, got it. So your dad starts expanding, gets into construction, builds this, buys up land in Montana. Is there a center for the Allred Group in, in Utah?

Vance Allred [00:18:58] For some reason I'm thinking it's always been here. It's always been here in the Salt Lake Valley.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Salt Lake Valley.

Vance Allred [00:19:04] Wherever dad lived, that's where it was.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] Do you have a sense for the height of the Allred group, how many people were followers?

Vance Allred [00:19:11] You know, I have no idea. I have. I left in 94. I don't know 93. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] Hundreds, Thousands.

Vance Allred [00:19:16] Thousands, Thousands.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Tens of thousands.

Vance Allred [00:19:18] When my dad died, we figured we had at least. There were 7000 people in the group. He had 7000 followers for real? I know he had at least 1200 tithe pairs.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Okay. And talk to us about important things that led up to your dad's death. Unless I prove to that.

Vance Allred [00:19:42] Talking about my dad's death is. It's a long story, but I'll make it very, very compressed. My dad controlled a lot of money. And when you have, you know, thousands of people paying tithing to you, that becomes a lot of money. But not only that, they would sign over the property to you. You build a house and you give. You give your land to the priesthood. I built three houses on property that I did not control. That eventually the AUB got it all.

Vance Allred [00:20:05] And because that's concept of living, the law of consecration and. But so you had the Church of the Firstborn, there were the brothers. And I only knew one of them very well. Verland. I married three of my cousins.

Vance Allred [00:20:24] He's a very fine man. I had nothing but good to say about Verland. But very interesting. Different people had different views from where the authority came. Most fundamentalists believe that they got it from this. Lawrence C. Woolley. The Church of the firstborn. The, the LeBarons, they have a different line completely. They claim to have got it from a guy named Benjamin F. Johnson. And it comes down to a totally different line.

Vance Allred [00:20:47] And part of their line is the concept that goes through patriarchy or through the brothers. Whereas the Mormon church doesn't believe anything like that. Yes, there are sometimes people who are related, but that's not. It doesn't go through the families, but the Baron group does.

Vance Allred [00:21:00] And it's ironic because it was my father. When my father was. I didn't tell you about. My father went to Mexico in 1943. 1947. 19. 1947. My dad went to Mexico for a while, took all of his wives down there. And it was then that he met a lot of Lebarons and he actually converted them. They became his followers at first, but within a short time they broke off and they become their own. They had become their own group and. But then I first heard whispers of, oh, there was a guy named Ben Lebaron. I never saw it, but he would come to our meetings.

Vance Allred [00:21:32] But not in the middle. In the middle of meetings. He'd have some sort of, you know, Holy Roller event. And I don't mean to be making fun of anybody. True. But I'm not sure he had a seizure or whatever. He'd start rolling around on the floor.

Vance Allred [00:21:44] And that was my first experience with the LeBarons. But then I heard about these guys, and at one time they were the largest fundamentalist group, because you've heard of the guys. The young missionaries went to France and they got copies of the Journal of Discourses on this. You know that story. Okay, I don't know the story very well because it's just pervertal to me, but there were some young missionaries who were on a steam liner going over to France before they flew them over and they got a set of Journal of Discourses, started reading them and reading that. There's a lot of historical dissonance between what the leaders of the church today teach and what they taught in 1850, 1860, 1870.

Vance Allred [00:22:19] The chief of which being the Adam God doctrine gives you a totally different slant on everything. And the Adam God doctrine really is what converts people to go to polygamy is not the plurality of wives. The women are attracted because they see how happy the women are. The men are attracted because the Adam God doctrine. This is Brigham Young's talk. He talked about it very specifically. It's volume one, page 50 of the journal Discourses. He says that Adam is our Father and our God and the only God with whom we have to deal. He says that Adam or Michael was the actual biological father of Jesus Christ.

Vance Allred [00:22:55] He had sexual intercourse. He doesn't use the words, but he says, how is he the father of Jesus Christ? The same way I am the father of my sons, or any man would be the father of a son. That's blasphemy. You get excommunicated in the church. Believe that. Well, Brigham Young taught it right, but

John Dehlin [00:23:09] what does that do to polygamy.

Vance Allred [00:23:12] That's why you live. That's why you live. Polygamy is to become a God because only men with more than one wife get to be a God. And only men with more than one

John Dehlin [00:23:22] wife because who said that?

Vance Allred [00:23:23] Big men.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] So Brigham Young, if you believe.

Vance Allred [00:23:26] Volume 16, page 166.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] So if you believe Brigham Young, you have to be a polygamist to become a God. Then you also have to believe Brigham Young when he says that Adam was God and impregnated Mary.

Vance Allred [00:23:39] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:23:41] But if you read Joseph Smith, Volume 3, page 389.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] So it's really Brigham Young, it's not Adam God theory.

Vance Allred [00:23:48] No, we see it. But the other thing about it, it's so ironic in that when Brigham Young was alive, I heard this story. You know, the church says Brigham Young, he didn't teach that. Well, here it is. Well, okay. He only said it once. Well, that's not true. A guy named his book.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] I don't think anybody disputes that Brigham Young taught that.

Vance Allred [00:24:06] Okay. I would hope so. No, well educated. Any well educated person who will claim that Brigham Young didn't teach that is going to vote for Donald Trump next week. They're going to vote for Donald Trump. Okay, very cool. But the thing about it, and this is what is the hardest thing for me to explain, is that it sounds like so totally out from left field because you talk about this polygamy and the culture and everything else. That's the what and that's the how. The Adam God doctrine is the why. It's the why they do it. And I remember one time, I remember my dad riding in a car with my dad the first time I heard him explain the doctrine, which I won't try to get into now.

Vance Allred [00:24:43] It's very complex. And he explained to my Aunt Elsie, who's one of my Uncle Owen's wives, this is what got him to become a fundamentalist. This is what convinced him he had to have more than one wife. Brigham Young's teachings, it's a very sophisticated doctrine. It's a very complex doctrine which I want to try to get into.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] But you're saying the Lebarons found out about this?

Vance Allred [00:25:05] Right. These missionaries read it, and so they got sidetracked into that. And then they went and came back to the United States. They began looking for somebody. They didn't find my dad. They found the Lebarons. Then they started proselyting for the Lebarans. And it became a huge group. A huge group. Thousands of thousands of people. In Mexico. It was centered in Mexico. It didn't last very long.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] However, like, what era were the lebarons

Vance Allred [00:25:27] when it was big? This is like the. I don't know what, the late 50s, early 60s. But then. So then a lot of these guys that I'm telling you about in Cedars, they were first attracted to that because of those missionaries. I don't even know their names, but they went and did a lot of proselyting for the Church of the firstborn, the LeBaron group. But then when people got in and realized the Church of the Firstborn, they were just these psychotic people. And so a lot of them began to leave. And that's where many of my father's followers had been before they came to him. And so they deserve credit or whatever you want to call it, for bringing them towards fundamentalism and so for helping

John Dehlin [00:26:08] to build up your dad's.

Vance Allred [00:26:09] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] Organization.

Vance Allred [00:26:10] And my dad's organization flourished because a lot of it.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] Because the LeBarons came over.

Vance Allred [00:26:14] Yeah. And. But they were arch enemies, right? Church of the Firstborn. Yeah, Church. They became the church firstborn. And then. But in 1974, first time I'd ever heard of Irvil LeBaron and the fact that he would cause some. He was starting to murder people. This is happening down south. South. The borders, like, you know, we can kind of blot it out. But then in 1974, some of their followers started coming to our meetings, and they would disrupt some of our meetings. And, you know, a couple of times I was never there, but a couple of times, God would stand up and say, well, you don't want to be here.

Vance Allred [00:26:43] You just need to leave. You know, I came to testify as the true prophet. Well, no, no, you just need to leave. And the first time I actually saw him was 1975. May of 1975, I was at our meeting house out in Bluffdale, Utah, and suddenly saw this guy out in the parking lot passing out fires on a car. His name is Eddie Marston. You read about him later. He's one of the murderers. And later one of the murder victims. He was passing these flyers out on our. On our cars. And we went out to confront him. And my dad was there. My dad and I can.

Vance Allred [00:27:10] Four or five of my brothers, some brothers in law. And he called us to repentance. He called us to repentance so that we would be blood atoned. You know, blood atonement is a noun, but they use fundamentalists. It's become a verb to be blood atoned.

Vance Allred [00:27:24] It means that you've been murdered. God's chosen to have your life taken for your own good. We're killing you for your own good because you're doing these terrible acts.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] He tells your dad, this is.

Vance Allred [00:27:33] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:34] What was the sin in his mind?

Vance Allred [00:27:37] Not giving Ervil your money. That's really what it was. Okay, we want your money. We want your money and your obedience and your obeisance. We want your obeisance. We want you to acknowledge that we are the ones. And so on May 10, 1977, when I heard my dad was dead, I had no question whatsoever who was the author. I didn't know who pulled the trigger. I knew Urville LeBaron was behind it. My dad started to talk quite a bit. Should say a lot. Maybe five or six times. I remember he'd bring in a meeting. He says something. I would not be surprised if the Lord calls me home early. And if I'm. If I die, if I'm called home, I'm sure it'll be at the hands of Verbal Baron.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] So where was your dad when it happened?

Vance Allred [00:28:15] It was in Pinesdale, Montana. I heard him say that. But he was at his office here in Murray when he was murdered.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] Here in Murray?

Vance Allred [00:28:19] Yeah, the building's still there. It's little buildings, 133 East, 4800 South. I don't know what it is now.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] He's in his office.

Vance Allred [00:28:27] Doctor's office. He's in his office. Doctor's office. And these two young women walk in and they actually told my mother, my Aunt Melba. She was my dad's nurse. Aunt Melba was. She said, well, I'll be with you in just a minute. And then she went to the back to see him. He had picture a chiropractor's office with the chiropractor type, tables. He had four rooms like that. And most of his work was chiropractic, but he did other things too. Minor surgery, things like that.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] He wasn't doing deliveries?

Vance Allred [00:28:56] No, he was, but he never in his office. He would go to women's house because he wasn't licensed. Yeah, but he still, at the time he delivered, he delivered 250 babies. About 200 to 250 babies a year.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] But not in the office.

Vance Allred [00:29:06] But not ever in the office. But Sram Melville walks back there to see my dad, and these women followed him, followed her back. And they just pulled out a gun and just shot him, just like that.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Two guns or one gun?

Vance Allred [00:29:18] As far as I know, one gun shot him twice.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] Which woman?

Vance Allred [00:29:21] Well, no one was ever Rena Chenauth is one who. She later wrote a book after she was acquitted. She wrote a book admitting that she had done it.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] She was acquitted. Why was she acquitted?

Vance Allred [00:29:30] Because the Mormons on the jury thought my dad deserved it.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] What, so he's tried. She was tried in Salt Lake City and they just let her off?

Vance Allred [00:29:42] Oh, yeah, she was acquitted. I know for a fact. I know for a fact one of the men. Actually, I wasn't there, but people that I highly trust and believe to be true heard one of the jurors come out and he says, the old bastard deserved it.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] So they were grateful.

Vance Allred [00:29:58] Maybe not grateful, but they didn't. I have some residual feelings. I left the Allred Group and I joined the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Wait, let's not get there yet.

Vance Allred [00:30:08] Right? No, I'm saying even though I've done that, I still have some residual feelings that. How I was treated as a child by Mormons in Utah. Very unkindly. Very unkindly. And about the fact that my father's murdered and all the jokes being told about it, all the unkindness going around about it all, lack of sympathy about it. Him getting her getting acquitted when everybody, everybody, anybody with any sense at all knew she had killed him. And the proof was irreputable. I talked to Dick Forbes, the guy who compiled all of the evidence against her. It was a slam dunk.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] So it was the Lebarons who sent these two?

Vance Allred [00:30:48] Yeah, they were actually the wives of Ervil Lebaron. They were his wives.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:30:52] So apparently, yeah, he brought them up to Saul. He was here in Utah with him. Then he gave them this commission from God to go kill the false prophet.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:31:00] That's why actually, they actually had went to fire rounds into his face. They didn't, but they were going to shoot him in the face. But for whatever reason, they didn't get that far. They wanted to destroy the face of the false prophet.

The Assassination of Rulon Allred

John Dehlin [00:31:12] So do you remember where you were when you heard?

Vance Allred [00:31:14] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] Where were you?

Vance Allred [00:31:15] I was in my house in Pinesdale, Montana. My wife came across. I had two wives at the time. My second wife was in labor with her. Labor would be my son. She didn't. She started having labor there in Pinesdale. We drove to Salt Lake and he was born here the next day.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Which son?

Vance Allred [00:31:30] My oldest son, David. He lives in Australia today.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:31:34] But I remember that very vividly.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] What was that like for you?

Vance Allred [00:31:37] It was awful. Several things about it were so awful. First of all, when my dad was alive, I had confidence that the priesthood quote unquote was going in the right direction. My dad believed very strongly that Jesus was returning. His return was eminent. It sounds funny now, but I lived in Pinesdale, Montana, and that was picture 1,000 acres. By this time, there were about 500 people living there. And I was the youngest male that was, you know, living pro marriage in my father's family and also men living on the ranch. I was the youngest one who went to all these special meetings, whatever. My father was grooming me

John Dehlin [00:32:23] to be a successor.

Vance Allred [00:32:24] I don't know about to be the successor, but he definitely had expected all of his sons to become apostles. And I say that it was not something I was proud of. It was something I was burdened with. I don't know if it makes sense because of the responsibility.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] Did he have 12 apostles?

Vance Allred [00:32:40] No, it wasn't a specific number. There was no specific number. Yeah, they were apostles. And he didn't call them that. He was too reverend to call them apostles. They were called disciples or members of the council. And. But every time my dad and he came up to Montana, almost. Almost like clockwork, once every three weeks. And it was so incredible because he would come, he would arrive usually on a Thursday afternoon. The whole community would just get worked up into this frenzy just working. Here we have all these people, these poor people, building these houses with no money. We'd all build them together, these big work projects. And it was. I have never been happier in my entire life than I was in that two and a half frenetic years.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] There's law of consecration.

Vance Allred [00:33:20] Oh, law of consecration, everything. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Your dad got all the money.

Vance Allred [00:33:23] Yeah. See, but I have to say, my dad. My dad paid more than he ever got. My dad was really a true disciple of Christ in that I know for a fact he took very little. I mean, on the ballot sheet, he gave a whole lot more to God than he got back. He was not like Warren Jeffs, who fleeces the flock. He was not like a lot of ministers who make a lot. My dad was not that way. I have a lot of issues with my dad, but as far as his word, as far as his honesty, and as far as his sexual habits and ideals, I have nothing but the highest respect for him.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] It sounds like generosity.

Vance Allred [00:33:58] Oh, to a fault.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] And so you. That was the happiest time of your life? Is living the life of Christ?

Vance Allred [00:34:02] No, I didn't say I've never been happier than I was. I would not say it was the happiest time. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] What's the difference?

Vance Allred [00:34:08] I'm trying to explain it to you okay? I lived in this little bubble where my life really actually sucked. But we were preparing for the second coming of Jesus Christ. And there's nothing more powerful in the whole world than to belong to something greater than yourself. That's true happiness. In my mind, I was miserable,

John Dehlin [00:34:35] but

Vance Allred [00:34:35] I was very happy to be part of this, getting ready for Jesus to come. And every time dad came up, he would. I'll never forget this one. We're on the main road of Pinesdale. It's all dirt roads, dirt roads. And the hill is. You know, it's covered with. We had these roads going across, but they're mud. No gravel. Just these mud roads. You could just. It's either mud or snow. And my dad looking up at the hill and he says, and one day, we will build our university right there, right there on the crest.

Vance Allred [00:35:03] And there will be the two roads coming like this. And they'll cross in front of it, and I'd see a fountain, A fountain right there. And people will come all over the world. Study here. He'd paint that picture. And then he'd talk about Jesus coming.

Vance Allred [00:35:17] And I really don't know if my dad was lying about this or if he had actually had some sort of visitation, but to him, the reality of people coming through the veil and talking to him. I'm not saying he was like a crazy person, but he would show up in a meeting and he'd just talk about his visitors. And I believed it. I believed that Christ came to see him and talked to him regularly.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] So his followers believed that he had talked to Christ?

Vance Allred [00:35:44] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Did he tell people he had talked to him?

Vance Allred [00:35:46] No, he was always too humble to say that.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] Too humble or wanted them to think what was this?

Vance Allred [00:35:51] Is what I'm telling you is I honestly don't know whether he had actually. Maybe somebody came to him. I don't believe for a minute it was God.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] I don't know. But he never said they did.

Vance Allred [00:36:02] No, but he would hint at it. He would hint at it.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] That sounds familiar, right?

Vance Allred [00:36:07] Very good. Very, very good. Oh, okay. So three things. Just let me finish that. And that is that. But every time you come up, you talk about, Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming. If not today, then tomorrow. If not tomorrow, the next week. If not next week, the next month. Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming. I'm paraphrasing. But literally, every single talk he gave for five years, that was what it was. And then he would get in his car and drive back to Salt Lake. And then we'd all go home and go to sleep because we were just absolutely worn out. He kept his frenetic pace about building everything and working, going to long, these long meetings, having circle prayers like you do in the temple and praying.

Leadership Crisis and Succession After the Murder

Vance Allred [00:36:38] And then, and then he was dead. And that all disappeared. And my uncle Owen took charge. And Uncle Owen was just lost. Just absolutely lost. He didn't know what to do, didn't know what to say, didn't know what to think. He had no vision. He had no.

Vance Allred [00:36:56] He received no visions. All he talked about is how much I misrule and how much I misrule. And so the all regroup just floated for years. Just floated for years. And it was the memory of my father that held things together. But so then, but then back to my dad, how he would do it. And I have a lot of anger towards him I'm still trying to get over.

Vance Allred [00:37:18] But then some of it, you know, I really don't know. I'm trying to give him credit because, you know, in certain things he was just impeccably honest. But what he did to me was. Oh, that was dishonest, dishonorable. Okay, so for example, if I can just talk about this for just a minute. My dad's claim to having the authority. Just this tortured, tortured claim to having the authority. And I'm an historian. I became an historian because of it. My dream was to become a doctor like my dad, a real doctor, medical doctor. But dad didn't want me to become a medical doctor. He talked me out of marrying the girl I'd fallen in love with.

Vance Allred [00:37:53] You know, I left her, just left. Dropped her heart, dropped her, broke her heart. And I married this beautiful little 16 year old girl that just recently joined the group. And she's from this wonderful church family. She's Donald Riplinger's niece, the Tabernacle choir director.

Vance Allred [00:38:09] But of course her greater family had no idea. Her mother joined the Albray group and brought her in and I married her. And my dad sent me off to Montana to get ready to the second coming and. But all I still struggled with is I wanted to be a doctor. But my dad convinced me that Jesus wanted me not to become a doctor and to go build the united order instead. And I said I want to study medicine. He says, well, study the gospel instead. Never dreaming that I really would.

Vance Allred [00:38:32] And I'm an academician not because I'm brilliant or smart, that's just because I like to do it. And so I started reading all the history of the church. So I was 19 years old. And I bought all the History of the Church by Joseph Smith. You've seen the blue volumes by the black volumes. B.H. roberts Comprehension, history of the Church, Orson F. Whitney's History of Utah. I bought the biographies of all the leaders. I bought all of them. I read them all my first year I was married, all of those books. Not because I'm smart or whatever. I just wanted to know. And that's when I discovered I have this absolutely freaky memory.

Vance Allred [00:39:07] I don't remember lines and verses. I couldn't. I couldn't become an actor, for example, but I can quote you chapters and page numbers till the cows come home. And then I started studying Mormon history, and I found that it backed my dad, backed my dad's position, backed my dad's position.

Vance Allred [00:39:25] And I came to realize that the church before 1890 is not the same church that it is after 1890. And it's really 1887 is the change. That's the year it changed. And polygamy was just heart and core. It was just like, you know, it was the crowning principle. You had to be. You had to be a polygamist. You had to be a polygamist to make it high school. You had to be. All the talks. That's what they were about. Every talk and talk and talk all the time. Polygamy. If you look in the Journal of Discourses, only Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ are talked more about than polygamy.

Vance Allred [00:39:57] All the talks. And you look at the fact that no more ever than 3% of the men ever practiced polygamy because it was statistically impossible. And then a man standing up at the head of the pulpit every week, week after week after week, every congregation throughout Utah, throughout Mormonism, you cast the drift. You have to have more than one wife. You have to have more than one. I'm sorry, guys. There are more men than there are women. Obviously, some of you can't have any wife at all for us to have more wives. But, you know, those of you who are getting to make it to the highest tree of celestial glory, we have to have more than one wife.

Vance Allred [00:40:27] You guys kind of forget about it. You go off and you work really hard and you build the communities. Every. But you're not going to. That's really the attitude. If you read the talks, that's really what they're saying.

Vance Allred [00:40:35] And I really wish the church had been honest about plural marriage. I really wish they had, because they had these fairy tales about plural marriage. And the greatest one is, you ask anybody, why did the Mormon Church practice have plural marriage. I'm asking you, Amy, off the camera.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] I was taught that it was because

Vance Allred [00:40:53] there were more women. That's a lie. It's an absolute unequivocal lie.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] So tell the listeners what she said.

Vance Allred [00:41:00] She said because there were all these extra women. That is not true. There was a shortage. There was a shortage of women in Utah. Look at any of the censuses. There was always a shortage of women in Utah.

Vance Allred [00:41:12] It was dangerous to be a woman in the. Think about it. It's dangerous to be a woman in the frontier. The number one cause of death for women was getting run over by wagon wheels. Second greatest cause of death for women is burning. Burning to death by having their long clothes getting caught in fire. And the third was childbirth.

Vance Allred [00:41:27] There was a shortage of women. Now, if we need to lift plural marriage because I have all these extra surplus women. Oh, you're talking about 2016 on my stake, in my ward, in my word. There are 37 beautiful women who are single and will never get married because there are not women. There are not men qualified enough to take them back to the celestial kingdom bury in the temple. They can't get married because there aren't enough qualified men. It's true today.

Vance Allred [00:41:53] It was Never true in 1856 or 1876 or 96. It was never true then. There was a shortage of women, however, there was a surplus of righteous women who were not willing to marry beneath themselves. Hear what I just said. There was a shortage of righteous women not willing to marry beneath themselves.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] Surplus.

Vance Allred [00:42:19] There weren't that many of them figuring out the whole church. But you think about women like I mentioned, Heidi Swinton, for example. You know, there are dozens of other women, you know, hundreds of women in the chimney. Sister Do, Sherry do. Think of all these dynamic, powerful, wonderful, brilliant women who will never get married. Why can't find anybody in the 19th century that was not true. Guess who those women all married.

Vance Allred [00:42:48] I'm going to marry me a member of the quorum of 12 apostles. I don't want to just anybody. And so the men who were leaders of the church. I actually did my thesis on this Mormon polygamy in The Manifesto of 1890, a study of hegemony and social conflict. I was the very first person ever in history to write a thesis on the manifesto. Can you believe that? I was shocked.

Vance Allred [00:43:10] 1984. Where? University of Montana. I was doing my work up there and I thought, I'd like to do a manifesto because that's. I don't claim to be an expert on Mormon polygamy. But if anybody knows more about 19th century Mormon polygamy than I do, I want to talk to that person and say, seriously, dude, you need therapy and you need to get a life, because I wasted so much of my life studying it.

Vance's Growing Doubts About His Father

John Dehlin [00:43:32] So you were talking about how your dad disappointed you or upset.

Vance Allred [00:43:36] So I'm coming to this. And so he convinced me to study the gospel instead. But the more I studied, the more his calling didn't make sense. The more I studied, the more impossible it was for him to hold the keys. And I won't get into these to you, but I had this list of 21 problems, any one of which was difficult, but five of them were just catastrophic. They were the death knells to my death.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] You were like the BH Roberts of the Albert.

Vance Allred [00:44:00] I was. Thank you very much. That is the greatest compliment you'd have possibly done. He was my idol. I studied all. I studied his methodology. I studied how he. His history, his analysis of the past. And he was my guy.

Vance Allred [00:44:12] And so I became like B.H. roberts, and I started using the same. Because he talked about his study of history and how he analyzed it. That's how I became an historian. I'm a historian. And so I would study the gospel. And so every night I'd come home from work, and I'd spend time with my beautiful wives and the kids. And then they'd go to bed, and I'd sit up and I'd read.

Vance Allred [00:44:32] Every night I'd get up in the morning and I'd read. Bobby had only six hours sleep, so I just had to learn. And every time my dad came up, I had a list. I had a yellow pad of questions.

Vance Allred [00:44:41] And so think about here. My dad had 500 followers up there. Every time he came up, he had to come see his son. To put the wheels back on my wagon, because I started reading, getting upset. And by this time, I'd been married for this was 1974 when this event happened.

Vance Allred [00:44:58] I'd been married for almost three years, had two wives, two kids, and my mother would come up with my dad. My mother was my father's oldest wife, legal wife, and she was kind of like the matriarch. And she loved everybody.

Vance Allred [00:45:11] She would come up and she'd always stay with me, and I would tell her my problems. And she says, well, I have no idea. You'll have to talk to your father. And I said, well, he's too busy to talk to me. He has all these other followers. And she says, well, I'll make sure he Sees you.

Vance Allred [00:45:22] And so every time dad came up, he had to go see Myrtle's son. And so he'd actually come find me on my work project where I was, and we'd go back to my house. And I know I just absolutely tortured him. I wasn't trying to be naught. I wasn't trying to be obnoxious. I just wanted the truth.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] You were having a fundamentalist crisis of faith.

Vance Allred [00:45:38] I was. Fundamentalist crisis of faith. And he would give me the answers. I said, okay. And so he'd leave. And I took down his answer to look at him. And this went on for months. For months. And I know he just think, oh, my God. Because there were no answers. There were no answers.

John Dehlin [00:45:55] That sounds very familiar.

Vance Allred [00:45:56] Because it's fatally fine. Okay, so there are five things that greatly troubled me about my father's position. And here again, my position, too, because I committed my life to it. The first one, of course, was simply the fact that how could the keys that were given by God to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery have left the church and gone to my father?

Theological Problems With Polygamist Truth Claims

Vance Allred [00:46:15] And because all of those have been recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, the dates, times, places, and they've been witnesses being scripture and been recognized by the whole church. And yet there was no record anywhere specifically of how my father got the keys or the instances, except for in my Aunt Melba's diary.

Vance Allred [00:46:32] The most important thing out of the problem, number one, was it just didn't seem fair to me that God would call a prophet and hide him away in Murray, Utah. Every other prophet, Moses, Elijah, you know, Samuel, they all go out and cry from the wilderness. You know, come out and hear me. Hear me talk and cry. Repentance and the entire world, it just wasn't fair that God would give all the keys to this man and then hide him away. So nobody knew where the prophet was. That's not the purpose of the prophet. And the others are all. They're all historical or doctrinal problems, but any one of them would be just totally fatal to my father's claim.

Vance Allred [00:47:08] And most of them, of course, historical or doctrinal. And there's just absolutely no way to overcome them. Because I kept trying to overcome those problems, and I couldn't, looking through all the history and everything that I had. And I remember, despite the look on my dad's face, he sat there and he kind of said, finally looked at me, and it kind of shifted, and he said, son, if you knew that the Lord's servant had seen the Savior, would that be Enough.

Vance Allred [00:47:39] I said, If I knew the Lord's servant had seen the Savior, would that be enough? He says, yes, would that be enough? This is what dad, whenever he would go into prophet mode, he'd always go into third person.

Vance Allred [00:47:50] I said, yeah. So then he leaned forward and he gave me this beautific smile. How does the Lord. How does the Lord's servant know the Lord lives? How do I know you live? I've seen your face. I've heard your voice.

Vance Allred [00:48:12] I felt your hands. I know the Lord lives. The Lord's servant knows the Lord lives. And that to me was just my dad admitting he'd seen the Savior.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] But he would never just say it.

Vance Allred [00:48:26] Oh, no, heavens no. Because that would be irreverent. That would be assuming too much. That would be self aggrand, self aggrandizing. It would be prideful. He was just too humble to do that.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] So as you're thinking back, trying to guess, was he lying to you? Was he? Did he believe it?

Vance Allred [00:48:45] And my answer is yes. I don't know. I believe he had some serious mental health issues. I really do.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] Like what?

Vance Allred [00:48:55] I'm not a psychologist, but it would seem to me that there is definitely. Oh, he really got in. He was really big into the conspiracy theories. He would have voted for Donald Trump big time. And the only thing he did not believe the Jewish Holocaust was a conspiracy. He believed that one was for real.

Vance Allred [00:49:13] But all the others, I mean, he named a conspiracy, you know, JFK wasn't really assassinated. You know, they hit him. He's working in a barbershop in Ontario or someplace, you know what I'm saying? And so I cannot honestly say either. He was an outright liar who lied to my face, which is what I thought for a long time. And I became. Oh, the day that I realized it was all a lie, I was so angry with him. I wanted to go dig him up and slug him. I was so angry with him.

Vance Allred [00:49:41] But the crazy thing happened is that when I became convinced that he had seen the Savior, I know he was expecting that I would just kind of chill back. My back is okay, but no, not me. B.H. roberts and me. I had to figure out how.

Vance Allred [00:49:59] There has to be a way for the Keys to get outside the priesthood to my father, outside the church, to get to my father. It has to be a way. And so I spent the next 18 years studying and studying and studying and studying, trying to figure out how and why. And so eventually I was able to overcome those arguments or plug it, plug the hole. Because I turned it around. It wasn't, you know, this is preached to doctrine. This is the Scriptures. How in the world can rule in all right, hold the keys. I turned around rule and all right holds the keys. He holds them.

Vance Allred [00:50:33] That's my absolute truth. Now I have to figure out how I can explain bringing bridging the gap to get back to the Scriptures so that I can say this is how it happened. These are the supports.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] And that's how apologists work. They start with the truth they want to defend.

Vance Allred [00:50:50] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] And then they make up whatever justifications they can to support the truth they've already decided to believe.

Vance Allred [00:50:59] And that's when I really became fanatical student of Mormon history, particularly anything dealing with the quote unquote fulness of the Gospel. Those parts of the gospel of Jesus Christ is revealed through the prophet Joseph Smith that the church had surrendered, partial or in whole between 1830, Joseph Smith's beginning of the church and 1927 when.

Vance Allred [00:51:19] Well not just 19, it was really 1918 when Joseph F. Smith died. It's kind of like, you know, those things, the memory of them was just all gone. And there was a brand new church in 1918. Most people don't realize that, but there was new church. Why new church?

Vance Allred [00:51:34] The very nature of God. Joseph Smith said the first principles of the Gospel is knowing the character and nature of God Himself. 5th lecture on faith and you know, and Joseph Smith, you know, Joseph Smith said whenever the gospel has been revealed, it's been through Adam. Whenever the Savior has been introduced, it's been through Adam. You know. When has the Savior been introduced? He's been introduced three times.

Vance Allred [00:51:59] This is my son, you know, in whom I am well pleased. Joseph. This is my son. Hear him whose voice was speaking? God the Father. Who bringing on who Joseph Smith said was Adam.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] Joseph Smith said that.

Vance Allred [00:52:13] Joseph Smith says whenever Jesus Christ has been revealed, he's always been through the voice of Adam. Adam has revealed him. Page three, eight and nine, volume three. But there only been three times of the voice of. There's only been three times Jesus Christ has been revealed from heaven. All three of them were Adam according to Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] So Brigham got it from Joseph.

Vance Allred [00:52:36] Absolutely. Absolutely no doubt in my mind. Joseph Brickenbag didn't make up the Adam God doctrine. It's Joseph Smith made up the Adam

John Dehlin [00:52:42] God doctrine from the Journal of Discourses as our source.

Vance Allred [00:52:44] But it also Volumes History of the Church, blue volumes Documentary History of the church. The seven volumes, six by Joseph Smith. Volume three, page 389. It's right there Right there. It cannot be. People can excuse that away. I mean, I was a polygamist fundamentalist apologist, granted. But the church has thousands of apologists. They've been trying to paper over that one for years, and they cannot do it. Joseph Smith taught the Adam God doctrine. Today you get excommunicated for believing in it. That's a conundrum to me. So the man who saw Jesus Christ. Wow. And the Father says that God and Adam are the same person. But Thomas Motzwell excommunicated in the church.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] If you say that, and you're saying Joseph F. Smith was the one who turned us away from that.

Vance Allred [00:53:31] No. At his death, it was never spoken of again. I'm not saying he turned it. It's kind of like.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] So he was loyal to it.

Vance Allred [00:53:38] I can't say that he was loyal to it. I don't know that anybody ever got excommunicated for believing in it. After his death, when he was again became president of the church, men began to be excommunicated for believing in that doctrine when it had been taught at the veil for years at the temple, it was taught at the veil. The Adam God doctrine was correct. And suddenly it changed.

John Dehlin [00:53:59] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:53:59] I don't know if I make any sense, Jim.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] New church with Heber J. Grant.

Vance Allred [00:54:03] Yeah, really.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] Because the nature of God, who God is, changed.

Vance Allred [00:54:06] Everything else, you know, the ordinance is the same. Everything looks the same, sounds the same. Except that to me, that was such a disconnect. You know, Joseph Smith goes into the grove to see God, Father. He sees God the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ. And he tells us, you know, volume three, page three. I keep repeating it, but. Go read it. He's very, very, very clear. The voice of Adam.

Vance Allred [00:54:24] And then Brigham Young, the prophets here in Revelator, who guided the saints. Everybody loves Brigham Young. He's a great pioneer. But don't listen to what he said about polygamy. The Adam God, doctor, or we will excommunicate him. That's a biggie to me. I'm trying to explain to you how I was able to make it all work, okay? And so then I based it on the premise. Then the dad did have the keys. And so then I became an apologist. And so I started writing all my ideas down. And those ideas that I wrote down, that's what every fundamentalist polygamist group in the world uses now, is the stuff I wrote.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] Can you summarize it?

Vance Allred [00:54:54] Yeah. It's all shit.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] What?

Vance Allred [00:54:57] It's garbage.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] The stuff you came up with. The author of this justification is.

Vance Allred [00:55:04] Now, this is PS Because. Because it's all tortured and strained because I started out with the premise. I violated every premise of scientific observation and I violated the first premise of historical review and analysis. I acknowledge that. See, But I wasn't trying to do it as a historical scholar. I was trying to do it as the son of the prophet who was trying to bear witness to my father actually held the keys, because my father had told me that he held the keys.

Vance Allred [00:55:26] And when you start out with a mindset, you know, this is how it is. It's amazing. It is amazing. It's like I think of all the good Mormons I know who have convinced themselves to vote for Donald Trump. It's the same kind of absolute idiocy that your mind is able to do to convince yourself. Well, this is how. Because, you see, I had to make it work because everybody else in the Yahweh group, they just got a testimony and that was it. I'm not that way. I had to know. I had to know how it could happen. How did the kids get there? And so then fast forward this so many, so much to my story that's essential, but I won't tell.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Can you tell us the justification?

Vance Allred [00:56:03] The justification. What, what was it? Well, just. Well, just real briefly, I summarize it. Okay. Real briefly. I went through it historically, went back to. And I looked at the absolute hinge point of how important plural marriage was and that Joseph Smith was very. Was Joseph Smith taught it to so many things about it.

Vance Allred [00:56:23] How to make a summary of this really quickly. All the things that are said about Joseph Smith detract him about being an adulterer. I don't believe any of those. I don't either. Because if Joseph Smith was a liar, Heber C. Kimball was a liar, Brigham Young was a liar, John Taylor was a liar, or surprise, they're all liars. So either Joseph Smith was an honest, honorable man who was a prophet of God and who didn't lie, or they all lied.

Vance Allred [00:56:45] Because if he lied, they all lied. If he didn't lie, they didn't lie. And so it has to be one of the two. I'm saying, as a historian, I choose to believe that Joseph Smith did not commit adultery.

Vance Allred [00:57:00] I believe, yes, he married dozens of women. He married over 100 women. They were young women, 14, 15, 16 years old, which makes me absolutely want to puke. It really distresses me because that's the same age my father was. My father was 38 years old and he married a 15 year old.

Vance Allred [00:57:16] And I remember when I was 38 years old, my daughter Tara became a very good friend with a young lady who was my uncle Owen's step granddaughter. I remember looking at that little girl and it just made me sick to think about it. I don't know if that makes sense to you.

Vance Allred [00:57:33] The thought of, first of all, why in the world would I want to spend time with a 14 year old girl? It's kind of like, you know, I like spending time with my wife, you know, because she's smart, she's intelligent, she has my experiences, the thoughts of having to spend time with this, you know, this young girl who has. She's a sweet girl, but talk about sheer boredom, you know, slash my wrist with a dull fork. But then I don't dwell on that. But just the thoughts of being intimate with her just gave me the creeps and the willies. And you're saying Joseph, Joseph Smith definitely

John Dehlin [00:58:06] believed he was practicing God's polygamy?

Vance Allred [00:58:09] For real? For real. He really honestly did. So I believe he had convinced himself either he actually received revelations from God and he was told to marry those young girls, which gives me the creeps, or he did it on his own, which gives me the creeps.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] I mean, maybe he's reading the Old Testament and he sees that the Old Testament prophets, he needs to restore all things. He's having these sexual feelings that he doesn't understand. So he bridges that and says, wow, it must be that I'm called by God to restore all things, including plural marriage because the Old Testament prophets did it, right?

Vance Allred [00:58:45] But I can't cross that gap. To me he's a prophet, certain revelator.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] Wait, you're saying your beliefs now?

Vance Allred [00:58:51] Yeah. Still, I have never stopped believing in Joseph Smith. Okay, I'm simply. I know it's illogical and I know that it's irrational, but for whatever reason, see, I studied his life. If there's anything written about Joseph Smith, I read it, I've read it. And I have so much respect, so much admiration for him and what he did, what he accomplished.

Vance Allred [00:59:13] So I'm admitting to you logically and rationally. I know that I'm being illogical and I'm being irrational and I know that my supporting him and by saying that I believe he's a prophet because I still can't get away from the Book of Mormon Rush. That's what I call it. Moroni, chapter 10, verse 4. I received that witness. The Book of Mormon is true. That's the only thing. That is the only thing in the Entire world that I can say unequivocally that I know to be true. The Book of Mormon is true.

Vance Allred [00:59:42] But what does it mean that it's true? Do I believe that there are literal descendants of the tribe of Israel? Well, we know what happened to the professors of biology and genetics at the University of Brigham Young who proved that there's no connection. You get excommunicated from the church. Oh, wherever heard that happen. Can people get excommunicated and believing.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] Okay, so you're saying that because you. Because you believe that Joseph was told to practice polygamy, that polygamy is essential?

Vance Allred [01:00:12] No, I do not believe that.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] What?

Vance Allred [01:00:15] I. I don't believe.

John Dehlin [01:00:16] We're talking about how you defended the principle for so long.

Vance Allred [01:00:18] Okay. I'm not saying justification for that.

John Dehlin [01:00:21] Your argument was that polygamy is essential, right?

Vance Allred [01:00:24] I believe that was my argument. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] That was your. So we were talking about your argument

Vance Allred [01:00:29] about how you justify it. Right. Okay. Okay. So all of my arguments for why it was all true, they were all based on the fallacy that my dad held the keys. And so the whole structure just simply collapses. It simply collapses because every single piece of evidence I used, every argument, every article, every quote, every analysis I gave was based on a flawed premise.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Right. But I just want you to construct it really quickly. So polygamy had to have been essential.

Vance Allred [01:00:53] Okay? Polygamy had to have been essential. Polygamy had to have been essential.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] So the keys couldn't have been taken away.

Vance Allred [01:00:59] Because if polygamy was essential in the 19th century, because the gospel of Jesus Christ is eternal and it is given the same to all men of all dispensations at all times. It must be necessary to all times, at all people.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] So it had to have continued.

Vance Allred [01:01:12] It had to have continued.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] And then how did you draw the line to your dad?

Vance Allred [01:01:15] And so then I began to be just stretching it. I tried to.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] How did you stretch it?

Vance Allred [01:01:19] How I stretched. It was finally this point that it had to be passed directly from the man who held the keys. Had to designate his successor. The successor was not necessarily senior, in fact, usually was not. He just simply leapfrogged him to go down to the next man that he was going to choose. He leapfrogged. Leapfrogged.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] And so traces the succession. As you had justified.

Vance Allred [01:01:38] Okay, so as I justified it was that it had gone. It was the Joseph Smith. Smith had the keys. And shortly before Joe the fifth Smith's death, he was visited by John Woolley, which is a fact. John Woolley came into Joseph S. Smith's house. And therefore I deduced from that that that must have been because in order for my dad to hold the keys, John Woolley had to have him, because that's the only way. Am I making sense? And so I deduced from that. I stretched and I tortured the thought that, well, the only reason why he went there was to Joseph S. Smith could say, when I'm gone, you are the next guy around. What year this would have been 18. 1918.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Wow.

Vance Allred [01:02:11] Way later. Yeah. But let me kind of go through this with you, okay. Shortly before Joseph Smith died, he received. Well, he received section 124 in 1841, which bypassed Oliver Cowdery and then gave all the keys that Oliver Cowdery had to Hiram Smith. But shortly before Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith died together, Joseph Smith said, where I am not, Brigham Young is.

Vance Allred [01:02:35] Brigham Young will be next. He will guide the church. So everybody knew that it was going to be him. Joseph Smith died. Had Hyrum Smith not been there, Hyrum Smith would have been the next president of the church. But he died with him. So now it's Brigham Young. Brigham Young and John Taylor did not see Idaho. A lot of friction between these. Between these two men. The last year of Brigham Young's life, the summer before he died, he's down in southern Utah with John Taylor. And there was actually some public friction, and Brigham Young kind of denounced John Taylor again in front of everybody. But then he went over to John Taylor's house that night, and he talked to John Taylor, and they made peace.

Vance Allred [01:03:11] And then the next week, Brigham Young said, after I am gone, when I am not, it will be John Taylor. And that he then reorganized the Quorum of twelve Apostles, because the quorum of twelve apostles was Brigham Young. And then Heber Sekimbo and Heber She Kimball died. Then it was Orson Hyde and then Orson Pratt, both of whom were first from the original quorum of 12 apostles, and then Wilford Woodruff and then John Taylor. And the reason why is that the first quorum of 12 apostles, they're all called on February 14, 1835. But then they were actually. They were not sequenced in order in order of ordination.

Vance Allred [01:03:46] Lyman White was actually ordained first, but they were later ordained. They were later sequenced in order of age. You're nodding your head when talking about. So 1839, Section 118 of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Lord calls, you know, you recall for John E. Page, John Taylor Wilford Woodruff and Wilford Richards. And John Taylor was the next one to actually be confirmed to be an apostle. But when Wilford Woodruff was ordained an apostle in Jackson at Far West, John Taylor actually laid his hands on Wilford Ritter's head. But when Joseph Smith sequenced the quorum of twelve apostles, Wilfrid Ritter was put in front of John Taylor because he was older.

Vance Allred [01:04:26] John Taylor said nothing in 1838. That same year, Orson Hyde apostatized and left the church. He came back. Joe the smith reinstated him. 1841, almost positively, because of the Joseph Smith testament. Joseph Smith calls them to all live the quorum of 12. All called the quorum of 12 up apostles together and gave them the commandment to practice polygamy. We've all heard the story about how agitated they were. And Heber C. Campbell's wife, Elate, got this message. Well, Leonora Cannon Tate was so upset with John Taylor, she threw something and broke a window. And she lost her finger because of it. Breaking the window. Orson Pratt became very bitter and very angry.

Vance Allred [01:05:02] Orson Pratt was actually excommunicated from the church. He was out of the church for 11 days. He was brought back in and reinstated in his position. I think it was less than two months before Brigham Young dies. He gets the quorum of 12 apostles together. He said, John Taylor sits number four. He's number one. And explain why.

John Dehlin [01:05:22] Who Brigham's number one?

Vance Allred [01:05:23] Brigham. This is after they made peace down in St. George. Then he re sequenced the quorum. John Taylor's first. Then Wilford Rudruff. Even though you're older, he called you Brother Pratt. You know, Brother Hyde, you were out of the church. You lost your position. You came back in Brother Pratt, you lost your position. You were back in. In fact, they actually slid down behind some of the guys who came in. Am I making sense? Okay.

Vance Allred [01:05:49] And so that's how John Taylor got it. Okay. And so then Wilford Woodard has it. I know. Because he was publicly, you know, declared by John Taylor. Wilford Woodard acknowledged that his successor would be Lorenzo Snow. She's successful. Would be Joseph. Joseph F. Smith. Well, there's no public decoration.

Vance Allred [01:06:07] This is really a hard one for me. Really hard one for me. And I finally constructed it to be that the church had chosen to give up plural marriage. They had, like, the analogy. This is really weak, but it's like when Samuel tells the people, God, you know, God doesn't want you to have a king. No, we want a king. We want a king. No, we don't want A king. We want a king. We. Okay, you can have a king. And I use that analogy of this is. You know, that's how it went from Joseph F. Smith. You know, Heber J. Grant was just a bad guy.

Vance Allred [01:06:38] He wasn't willing to do it, to step up. That was really hard for me because I had absolute highest esteem for Heber J. Grant. My father never spoke, never said a good thing about him. Heber J. Grant was. He was. He was the first one to start the persecution of the polygamists. I can see why my dad didn't like him.

Vance Allred [01:06:55] And he was president of the church in 1944 when my dad was arrested. He died in 45. I can understand that. But later I studied here with your grand slave. I fell in love with the man. Talking about impeccable character, wisdom and Christlike attitude. You know, being involved in the persecution of polygamists, that's still hard for me today. But, you know, just like Thomas S mont's persecution of people children of gay marriages is still really hard for me.

Vance Allred [01:07:18] But I got through that. And so then I had to do some other gymnastics of how then it bounced around the different fundamentalist groups. And ironically, I'm the one who created the doctrine of as is articulated worthy seeing of apostle. Because my dad was bypassed.

Vance Allred [01:07:34] Joseph Muster bypassed several other men to appoint my dad. Then after my dad's death, it's Owen Allred. Well, there's a crisis in the Allwood group today. I don't know if you've heard of it. Have you heard of the crisis in the Allud group?

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Tell us.

Vance Allred [01:07:44] Okay. So at my Uncle Owen's death. This is so tragic. I'm responsible for this. It's my fault. Okay? So I created this doctrine. I explained it to everybody, you know, and so let me give you this little aside. In 1989, I came to my Uncle Owen's attention. Now he knew who I was and whatever, but I lived in Montana. He was in Salt, and he'd never really.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] So Owen takes over for your dad?

Vance Allred [01:08:17] Yeah, he took over my dad in 1977. This is 12 years later.

John Dehlin [01:08:22] And you're doing what during this.

Vance Allred [01:08:23] Well, in this period of time while I was, you know, doing my business, so I got badly injured in the construction accident. I got to go to college because of it. I became a teacher because of it. And that's how I learned how to study history and learn how to do all this analysis.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] And you are still believing?

Vance Allred [01:08:35] Oh, yeah, I still did. I was. I was still fully practiced.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] Your dad's Dead.

Vance Allred [01:08:38] My dad was dead.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] But you're. So the church is What?

Vance Allred [01:08:42] No, I believed it. I believed my uncle was my father's successor and that he held all the keys. So he was the prophet on our. Was the prophet.

Internal Power Struggles and Misconduct in the Group

John Dehlin [01:08:48] And you just got injured studying, becoming a teacher.

Vance Allred [01:08:51] Okay. But then there was this conflict within the council between Joseph Thompson and Owen Allred, and I kind of. And Joseph Thompson became aware of me, and he knew I could. You know, I was an eloquent speaker, and I could really convince people, you know, if I try to, if I want to. And so there was this. So Joe Thompson, he was on Colonel's Rival. They were supposed to be together, but there was this intense rivalry between them, a lot of arguing between them. And Joe Thompson had begun using me. That's my phone. And Joe Thompson began using me. He was taking me with him, and he would have me talk, and he would tell people that I was his errand kind of stuff like this. And so you're betraying your uncle? Yeah, I wasn't trying to. And it was really crazy because the council, they always publicly, always say, oh, we're totally, totally united.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] That sounds familiar.

Vance Allred [01:09:41] We're totally united. But, you know, backroom brawls, the screaming. I'll tell you later, at council meeting, they would actually scream at each other, of course, but I would find that out later. But. So Uncle Owen, you know, Joe Thompson was in charge of peace meeting that night, and he asked me to come up and teach, just cold turkey. I want you to come up and teach us a lesson. I just got up. What do you want to talk about? He says, just do whatever. So I talked real basic, talking about the law of grace. Just talked about grace, explained what it was, because I didn't know.

Vance Allred [01:10:09] My dad never taught grace. Polygamists do not believe in grace, by the way. They believe you get to heaven because you earn it. This is the greatest difference between fundamentalists and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches by grace alone. You are saved after all you can do.

Vance Allred [01:10:27] They may not really believe that, you know, they teach it. Fundamentalist groups do not believe that you have to earn your way into heaven by obeying Allah, obeying all the commandments. So anyway, I gave that lesson. Then after I was done, I came on stage, and my uncle had.

Vance Allred [01:10:42] I had a wife. Pro. Wife who left me. And then the process of that, my name just got turned in the mud. It was awful. And my Uncle Owen always believed the worst of me. Then I came down off that stage. And he looked at me. I had tears streaming down his face. He says, you are your father's son. Which is a stupid thing to say, but it was profound to him. And then suddenly, I was the guy. I could do no wrong.

Vance Allred [01:11:02] And he started taking me with him everywhere. And then three weeks later, he made me Bruce R. McConkie of the fundamentalist group Owen did. Mm. I was suddenly the guy, the guy

John Dehlin [01:11:15] who knew all the doctrine and whatever

Vance Allred [01:11:17] I said, Owen said, he started having all of my talks recorded and transcribed and passed out total. There are 19 volumes of them. And I talked about history. I talked about basic gospel doctrine. Most of it, it really is. It's well researched, it's well documented, it's well written, well spoken, because I went back and I edited it, and then I took out the flaws in speaking and whatnot. And it's really a very good read. But I'm telling you. But it's all totally flawed.

Vance Allred [01:11:49] When I say it's bs, I mean it's flawed. It's just ultimately flawed because it's based on the premise that my father held the keys. But in the process, then I explained how that it doesn't pass through seniority of ordination. It passes through worthiness.

Vance Allred [01:12:06] Who's the most worthy? Who's the most worthy? Well, the Revelation of 1880, Wilfred Rudderf in 1880 went. When Brigham Young died in 1877, they did not reorganize the Quorum of Twelve Apostles for quite some time. And when Joseph smith died in 1844, and Brigham Young didn't be organized until December of 1847, so it went for three and a half years with the Quorum of Twelve Apostles leaving the church. And the First Presidency was in advance. And the same thing happened when John Taylor became president of the church. And they didn't do anything for three years. And finally, when it was almost three years, they asked Wilford Ritter to go get a revelation, and he did.

Vance Allred [01:12:39] In that revelation, he got. The words were that all the members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles hold the keys conjointly in coordination with each other, but they are of one mind with each other. But the Lord calls them all to the Quorum. And then, in essence, these are my words. Whoever lives longest is the head.

Vance Allred [01:12:59] Whoever lives longest, he says, because those whom I call home, I choose to call home. In other words, if I call them home, I don't want to be head of the church. And therefore, whoever survives is the one that I chose because I allowed him to live. I'm Paraphrasing. I'm speaking. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that's really what it says.

Vance Allred [01:13:21] And so then it goes from Wilfred Rudolph to Lorenzo Snow, Joseph Smith and well, wait a minute, why doesn't it go. Why doesn't it go on down then to Heberg Grant, which it should have

John Dehlin [01:13:34] done because he gave it to Messer.

Vance Allred [01:13:36] Yeah, well, he gave it to. He gave it to Warren Woolley who eventually gave it to Musser, but see. But then Musser had to bypass these guys down in Colorado City. Leroy Johnson, you know, Rulin Jeffs, he bypassed them all to give it to my father.

Vance Allred [01:13:53] So I'm saying, well, the same thing happened there. And so I come up with this historical examples. They're not really examples because they're really not direct correlations. They're not corollaries at best, but there's certainly no definitive proof. But so then Joanne says, do I have the right then to choose my successor? And I said, well, absolutely. So he bypassed my uncle Marvin. He bypassed Marvin Jessup and he says LeMoyne Jensen would be my successor.

Vance Allred [01:14:17] Why could he do that? Because I told him he could. So now Lamoine Jensen is getting ready to die. Marvin, Jess is supposed to be his successor. Now Marvin's been passed over once already, okay? LeMoyne Jensen is on his deathbed and my brother in law, Lynn Thompson, who's married to my former brother in law and he and another guy named Harry Bonnell, they go to see LeMoyne Jensen.

Vance Allred [01:14:44] Nobody's with them. Oh, but they're together. I guess this will be the two witnesses. They come out. Lemoy, Witnesses matter. Yeah, they come out. Well, Lamoy's dead, but before he died he said I was his successor and Harry's my first counselor and my first witness.

Vance Allred [01:15:04] And the people in Pinesville go say what? Because Marvin's already been passed over once and there are all of these accusations that Lynne Thompson was a child molester, pedophile. And there have been more than a few girls. Almost all his nieces or his daughters come and say, well, he did it to me.

Vance Allred [01:15:21] I don't know about that, but I do know that I had two of my sisters. These are Athlean's daughters, the Marilyn Monroe with the brown hair. These are two of Athlean's daughters, both who left Lynn Thompson. I don't care about anything else. My sisters can't stand to be married to the guy.

Vance Allred [01:15:36] I don't care. I mean, that's my litmus Test. And so now Lynn Thompson now claims I'm the one. And so the all right. Group is just fragmented to pieces. And so here's Pinesdale, Montana, and it's literally broken in half because most of the people who live there, guess what their last name is. It's Jessup. What's happened to Marvin Jessup? Well, he's been pushed back.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] Yeah.

Vance Allred [01:16:00] And now there's, there's not an apostle up there who's in charge up there. So I was up there just last week and it is just, it's heartbreaking. So I'll go see my sisters. You know, I have two sisters on one side and two sisters on the other side. And it's ugly and it's sad and I feel somewhat responsible for that because the reason why Marvin Jessup isn't head of the honor group today is because I told Owen he could bypass.

John Dehlin [01:16:29] Did you have a motive in doing that?

Vance Allred [01:16:30] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] You just believe that was.

Vance Allred [01:16:34] Well, see, because in order for my dad, in order for my dad to be head of the priesthood, that has to be a correct principle. It has to be, because that's the only way my dad could be the prophet. It defies, first of all, it defies logic, it defies reason, it defies history, and it defies principle. And most importantly, defies basic gospel doctrine. But a fundamentalist don't worry too much about that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] So we have all sorts of apologists in the LDS Church today. Daniel Peterson, Lewis Midgley, Brian Hales, lots of people. Some are even saying that sort of Terrell Gibbons or Richard Bushman are sort of new apologists or Patrick Mason or whatever. They all start with the belief that the LDS Church is true, and then they come up with whatever justification they feel or believe to then bolster it. You were that for a long time. So as someone who was the apologist, now you're looking back, what's it like to have created all that and have so many people have believed that and even have had important church decisions made based on that logic and your justifications and now to look back and say it was all malarkey? What's that like for you?

Vance Allred [01:17:50] I've lost a lot of sleep, honestly.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Was it hard for you to admit that for a while?

Vance Allred [01:17:55] Oh, heaven, no. Well, yeah. Well, as soon. As soon as I. Well, fast forward, fast forward. There's so many things going on. I'm doing this. This is 1989. I became Owen's right hand man. 1991. But I only had one wife. It was My. My was. Dad, you know, got me involved in three marriages again. My first one, Tana. I'm still madly, madly in love with her. And we have the fairy tale romantic.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] She's still your wife?

Vance Allred [01:18:23] Yeah, she's Lance's mother. She's most. She's the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me multiplied 100 times.

John Dehlin [01:18:30] And she's your first wife?

Vance Allred [01:18:31] She's my first wife, my first love. And then dad talked me into marrying another girl. And 11 months later, and she was married to me for eight weeks, and then she ran off with a beekeeper from Ham. She was very promiscuous. I didn't know that. Dad didn't tell me that. He wanted me to save her. Thought if I married her, I could exalt her. It was terrible. Then I married another girl a year later. And that's. I won't get into that because I'm not going to say anything negative about it, because she and I have three wonderful children together, and I'm proud of all of them.

Vance Allred [01:18:55] One lives here in Salt Lake City, and she has a granddaughter. When you love people unconditionally, people say, who do you love the most? Tannis kids or Colleen's? I don't love them. I love them all completely. I love them all completely. So therefore, I love them all the same. I'd die for anyone. I'd give my heart, anything for anyone.

John Dehlin [01:19:12] For your wives?

Vance Allred [01:19:13] No, no. For my children. For my children. I would do that for Tana, but I wouldn't do it for the children of my. The mother of my three other children. But I'm saying. So I choose not to say anything negative about my third wife. But she's a very remarkable person. She's accomplished a lot of great things. She got a master's of public health from Yale University. Since she left, I have tremendous.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] Yale University.

Vance Allred [01:19:33] I have tremendous respect for her.

John Dehlin [01:19:35] Holy moly.

Vance Allred [01:19:36] Holy moly. Yeah, tell me about it. I'm extremely proud of her and what she's done.

John Dehlin [01:19:40] Polygamists have done well for yourselves.

Vance Allred [01:19:41] Yeah. And I literally. I have a master's degree from University of Utah. My wife also has a master's degree from University of Utah in education. We had to do that in spite of my dad. My dad didn't want any of us to go to college. And so that's my story as far as.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] Did he want to keep people ignorant?

Vance Allred [01:19:57] Oh, absolutely. No, he didn't want to keep us ignorant. He wanted to protect us. He would actually do that.

John Dehlin [01:20:05] And he's protecting you from What?

Vance Allred [01:20:06] All the evil out there that might

John Dehlin [01:20:07] confuse you because he didn't want you learning?

Vance Allred [01:20:10] Because, no, he didn't want us deceived. I'm not trying to be funny. This is how we respond to all of these kinds of things. No, I'm doing it for your good. I wouldn't want to limit you. I wouldn't want to put any kind of restraints on you. I just know how close I came to falling away, and I just don't know if you could withstand the temptation. I'm just grateful I was able to because he'd always do it in such a way that would make you feel like he loved you and he's looking out for you. But he would point out to you very clearly that he was superior to us because he had the strength to withstand all those things.

Vance Allred [01:20:44] My greatest dream as a kid was to be a medical doctor. I wanted to be a medical doctor. That was my dream. That was my passion, to become medical doctor. I don't know that I would have done it. I graduated first in my class from University of Montana, so I'm not an idiot. My oldest daughter, who is a medical doctor, on her first day she came back from gross anatomy and she said, dad, you would never have made it.

Vance Allred [01:21:02] I probably wouldn't. I probably wouldn't have made it. I probably would have realized soon on that wasn't my cup of tea. I'm really good at history and teaching. That should have been my choice.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] So when you were saying earlier about frustrations with your dad, it's number one that he didn't let you become what you wanted to become.

Vance Allred [01:21:24] Absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:25] What are. If you had to just give high level, what are some of the other criticisms you have?

Vance Allred [01:21:30] He lied to me. He knowingly, rationally, deliberately lied to me.

John Dehlin [01:21:35] About what?

Vance Allred [01:21:36] Seeing God face to face.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] How do you know?

Vance Allred [01:21:38] Because I know he didn't see him.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] How do you know?

Vance Allred [01:21:40] Because I've seen the fruits of his labor. I've experienced the damage. I've experienced the pain he's brought to my life. A servant of God following the teachings of a prophet of God would not have brought me that destruction in my life. I look at, what about all the

John Dehlin [01:21:54] people that Joseph Smith. What about all the people whose lives were affected or even destroyed because of Joseph Smith?

Vance Allred [01:22:02] And my response to that is that people are responsible for their individual choices, what they do, just like people are responsible for the choices today. There are people. There are people in the church like me who say, I love the church, I love its teachings, but I cannot Support your position, your stand on children, of gay marriage. I just. I can't do that, and I can't be part of it. I realize I'm putting myself beyond the pale. I realize I'm saying that, but to me, it's an individual thing.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] But you're saying that you don't believe your dad saw Jesus because there was too much pain that came from him.

Vance Allred [01:22:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:37] But you don't. You don't apply that same logic to Joseph Smith.

Vance Allred [01:22:41] Because I haven't. No, I do not.

John Dehlin [01:22:44] Because why?

Vance Allred [01:22:45] I don't. Because to me, it's. I understand where you're going. And it would be.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] I'm just curious.

Vance Allred [01:22:50] Right. I'm simply saying it's. It's kind of like people's. When people hear about Donald Trump and he saw that those women right away, well, Bill Clinton did it. Well, Bill Clinton did not do that. Bill Clinton.

John Dehlin [01:22:59] There are different categories.

Vance Allred [01:23:01] Different categories.

John Dehlin [01:23:02] Categories of.

Vance Allred [01:23:03] They're similar.

John Dehlin [01:23:04] Sadness that your dad brought onto people was a totally order of magnitude more significant than Joseph Smith.

Vance Allred [01:23:10] But most importantly, Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon. So therefore, in my mind, I still believe the Book of Mormon is true. Therefore, I believe if he did fall away, if he was diminished, at what point? At some point, he had that all he had the Urim and Thummim. This is advanced already talking. Yes, I still believe in that. Most of my children do not.

John Dehlin [01:23:31] Okay.

Vance Allred [01:23:31] No, we'll get to that. But I do.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] Okay. So other complaints about your dad. He lied to you. He wouldn't let you become who you wanted to become. Anything else, Major?

Vance Allred [01:23:39] Well, yeah, he chose who I should marry. But then he put men in power that he knew were doing some awful things. My dad knew that Joe Thompson had his accusations because it was his nieces. His nieces were married to Joe, and they were telling my dad these things, and he chose not to believe them. He chose to ignore them. So I just. So I don't believe my dad had any authority at all. I don't believe Michael Owen held it. I don't believe Joseph Mezra held it at all. And I fell in love with Gordon B. Hinckley, though I really did.

Leaving the Allred Group Behind

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 677

John Dehlin [00:00:00] So what led to you leaving the elder group?

Vance Allred [00:00:03] Well, is that I was in Montana getting ready for the general karmas up there. Oh, there's so many things going on. My uncle wanted me to be his successor. And I tell people in the algorithm, if you don't like it, too bad. Sad. It's the truth. My uncle only wanted me to be the next one to succeed him.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Or at least he told you that. Yeah, maybe like Joseph, he told multiple people.

Vance Allred [00:00:25] Oh, yeah, I'm sure he did, but I only had one wife. I only had one wife, and I wasn't qualified to hold the apostleship because I only had one wife. And I came really close to marrying a young woman in 1991. He was so happy.

Vance Allred [00:00:39] But she and I called it off. And then Owen, he finally told me. He says, I can't wait any longer. He says, you know, he hadn't called anybody to the council in years and years and years. He says, I have this spot for you. And then she came back to me and she told me she wanted to marry me again. And we went to. This time just the week before. In the time I called it off, I called it off because I would just. Because real funny is different people have different motives for getting involved in polygamy. To me, it was.

Vance Allred [00:01:03] It's not about marrying more women that I could have more mates. It's that I had this wife that I totally, absolutely love. And for me to marry somebody else, that means I can only be with her half the time. That's how I've always viewed it. I know it sounds terrible.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] I have a question.

Vance Allred [00:01:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] So. You look at your father and say that maybe he was deceiving people because he taught things that weren't true. Like that he saw Jesus. Right. So you taught all these justifications. Were you deceiving people?

Vance Allred [00:01:36] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Were you knowingly deceiving people?

Vance Allred [00:01:39] No, I wasn't knowingly.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] So in your mind, what?

Vance Allred [00:01:44] In my mind, I'm responsible for what I taught. In my mind, I'm.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] No. Back then. In your mind, when you come up with it, it was God's.

Vance Allred [00:01:51] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] It was revelation.

Vance Allred [00:01:52] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] So you can see how your dad and maybe even Joseph Smith could come to believe something that wasn't true.

Vance Allred [00:02:00] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:02:02] Unequivocally now you look back and it

John Dehlin [00:02:05] wasn't true, but at the time, you literally believed it.

Vance Allred [00:02:07] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Okay. Well, that's how prophets happen, right?

Vance Allred [00:02:10] Yeah. When you look at, you know, been there. Yeah. Kind of like I have people ask me, you know, do I Believe Muhammad was really a prophet? I say yes, absolutely. Why? Well, because he thought he was. Because he was able to convince, when you look at it, himself, himself and all of his followers.

John Dehlin [00:02:28] So you don't believe the prophets knowingly deceived, and yet you still believe your dad knowingly deceived?

Vance Allred [00:02:33] Well, see, this is. I'm agreeing with you in the absolute sense. Yes, he absolutely, knowingly deceived me. But I think he did it for a higher good. That's why I do not like. To me, the concept of higher good is the ultimate whitewash for the worst sins. I do not believe in, quote unquote, the higher good.

Vance Allred [00:02:48] But so many things have been done in the name of the higher good. I just. I'm an historian. I cannot think of, you know, the worst hijacking of something in the whole world was the name of Jesus Christ to do the most hellacious, awful things. Almost everything the Catholic Church has done has been named, done in the name of, you know, every. Every handiest thing ever has ever done. But second to it is for the course of the higher good. You know, what's best for the majority of people.

Vance Allred [00:03:12] That's just simply wrong. You cannot justify that all ever. And so then it comes down to the point, then you think about it, you know, who has the right to make the absolute determination of what's right and wrong? Like, you look at our justice system, it's as good as it can be. But still we know their flaws. What percentage? 8% of the people go to prison. We know for sure. Whatever it is, I'm making up that number. I don't know what it is, what the latest research has shown, but you get people in positions who try to do the very best they can.

Vance Allred [00:03:45] But I remember when I was in high school administration and I would see some. I'd see other high school administrators doing what I hope I would never do. And suddenly, like, start. They sell teachers down the river because it was easier for them to send the teacher down the river than to stand up to the parents. Am I making sense?

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Yeah. So what led to you leaving the

Sexual Abuse Within the Polygamist Community

Vance Allred [00:04:04] elder Group in 1990? In 1991, I first heard whisperings about sexual molestation in El Ragu. But I thought it was isolated and very rare. It wasn't until 1992 that one of my nephews came to me with his new wife. And the new wife told me that she had been abused in her family. And my thought was, oh, I have to tell my uncle about this, because he's gonna be shocked. This is going on in our group. And so I had her and her husband come with me to Salt Lake and we went out to see my uncle Owen. This was a sad day. And so she told Owen about how she'd been abused in her family.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] These are men molesting their daughters.

Vance Allred [00:04:51] This was actually older brothers molesting her,

John Dehlin [00:04:53] Older brother molesting a younger sister.

Vance Allred [00:04:56] But by that time, I had had enough education in my teaching career to know that older brothers don't do that just because they want to. They do this because they've either they've been molested or they have seen it. Okay, you do not know what you're talking about.

Vance Allred [00:05:10] But I knew for sure that she's saying that her older brothers had molested her. And so I took her to see my uncle and he just broke down and started to cry. And my first thought was, wow, sorry for bringing this attention. Then he finally said, what am I gonna do? It's everywhere. It's everywhere. I don't know what to do about it. Every family. Every family. It's every family. I don't know what to do about it.

Vance Allred [00:05:40] And then I. And then that was the real turning point for me. I said, what do you mean you don't. I didn't raise my voice. I said, what do you mean you don't know what to do about it? We call these men in, we excommunicated, we disfellowship them, we take their wives away from them, their children away from them. He says, I can't.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] You can't.

Vance Allred [00:05:55] You have no idea how high up it goes. And I was just shocked. I was just shocked. And I went home and I told Tana and she said, you're kidding me. I said, no. And so then, and so for the next nearly a year, he started telling me all of his problems. And it was all about. It was all low level stuff, you know, it was the rank and file, doing these kind of things. And then finally he admitted to me that one of the men who had married two of my sisters who was in the council, it was in his family. I said, why is he still in the council?

Vance Allred [00:06:24] Well, you know, I don't let him talk anymore. And so then when people, word got out that I was empathetic to it, then I started having these women come to me, these husbands come to me, telling me that it was in their families. And I was just shocked.

Vance Allred [00:06:40] And so I was trying to talk to my uncle and he wouldn't do anything, wouldn't take a stand. And then I was actually In Montana, getting ready for general conference there, which my uncle held. And then I got a call on the phone. It was the call that changed my life. And it was when one of the men that I've been associating with, you know what happened? There was kind of an ad hoc group of us got together. We were almost. We were all monogamists. We're all monogamists who knew that there was this evil going on. And we wanted. None of our wives was involved and they weren't victims, but we were trying to help these other victims.

Vance Allred [00:07:10] And right away my older brother, who was a member of the council and LeMoyne Jensen, the right away said, you don't have any right to talk about this. This is strictly our. And I said, wait a minute. Nobody tells me to walk away from abuse. I do not do that. I don't do that. And so then suddenly I started to become a bad guy, which was. I didn't care, but I was upset about it.

Vance Allred [00:07:30] But I couldn't figure out, I was trying to figure out why my uncle was so wishy washy on it. When he was with me, he'd hold my hand and he said, please, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. When I was in Montana, I got this call from one of the other guys in that group who told me that just that morning he heard that finally Joe Thompson's, several of his daughters had gone to see my uncle and told him that he had molested them all and had been doing it for years. And so then.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] Do you think there's something about polygamy that leads to child molestation?

Vance Allred [00:07:57] It doesn't lead to it. It's not cause and effect or this. It's not cause and effect. It does, however, highly facilitate it. It creates an environment or situation that makes. It evidently makes it very easy for that to become rampant.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Why?

Vance Allred [00:08:11] Well, first of all, let me go back and finish my thought why that was so catastrophic. Most people, I tell people why that caused me to leave the altar groove. Just like that. I knew it was all a lie. And that was because I had believed Jesus talked to my father. My father talked to Jesus. Well, how could you know? Right after I got the call, I called my sister on the phone. She was married to Lynn Thompson at the time. And Lynn Joe Thomas BROTHER in LAW and I said, is this true? And she said, yes. And I said, did dad know about it?

Vance Allred [00:08:37] And she said, yes, he did. And right away, when I heard that dad knew that, I realized he Couldn't have seen Jesus because Jesus would not talk to my father, wouldn't visit him on a regular basis and allow his apostles, evil men like that, to sit close to him. I don't know if I. To me, it was just instantaneous, just like the whole house, the whole house of cards just imploded. And I sat in the room the kids call. Kids call that. I'm sorry, my children call that. The day dad cried back in one of my mother in law's bedrooms, I sat and cried for almost two hours, just sobbing, bawling, sobbing, because I thought of all those things.

Vance Allred [00:09:10] I thought of all the choices I didn't get to make. I thought of all the mistakes I'd made. I thought of the heartbreak I'd seen, a heartbreak I endured then. I thought of all the people I taught and the ideas that had been used to bolster keep women in abuse situations, to convince girls that because of what I had taught, because of what I had said, it was awful. But I was done. I was done that day. And I went from being Owen Allred's greatest supporter and my father's greatest supporter to the greatest critic in just one day.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] 91, 93. 93.

Vance Allred [00:09:41] July 20, 1993. And then that was really ugly because then I became Owen's enemy number one. He did everything he could to destroy me after that. Your uncle, that's another story. That's another day. But then back to your question about, you know, whether polygamy makes all that possible and whether, you know. And so I think about that and I hear people say I haven't a man whom I greatly admired and respected. He was at that time, first counselor in the Stake presidency where I lived. Wonderful, sweet man. He later became one of the bishops that served with him, but at the pulpit said, nothing good has come out of polygamy.

Vance Allred [00:10:21] Not one good thing has come from polygamy. And I hate polygamy. There's not a person in the world, I promise you, there's not a person in the world who hates polygamy more than I do. I'm not saying I hate it the most. I can't imagine anybody hating Piggy more than me because all I've seen is all this heartbreak all my life. But I have to acknowledge the quote, unquote, good that it did simply because it produced the numbers. And it's really interesting because dozens of times I've spoken to firesides in the church, in the LDST Church, and President Faust asked me, please don't ever talk about it in A chapel.

Vance Allred [00:10:54] So I never do it, but I go to people's homes and you know, usually audience, you know, 30 to 50 people. And I begin with, I say, how many of you are descendants of Mormon polygamy? Every single hand will go up.

Vance Allred [00:11:07] Never at any time did more than 3% of Mormons practice polygamy. And you look at those 3% and you look at who their children are today, they're sitting on the stand every general conference.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] And that's a good thing.

Vance Allred [00:11:20] I'm simply saying that that's the evident result of that, whether it's good or bad. And so to be a card carrying Mormon, how can you say polygamy was a bad thing? Because if you look at the good things that it's produced in the church today, if you're a card carry Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] Yeah. If you're right, active believing more.

Vance Allred [00:11:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] Okay. And so just really quickly, polygamy makes child abuse more likely. Why?

Vance Allred [00:11:50] I wouldn't say it makes it more likely. I'd say it provides a more, let me say it more greatly facilitates the practice and abuse, I mean the flourishing of the practice of the abuse of women or anybody sexually. Because first of all, the secretive nature of it, you know, you don't talk, you don't tell anybody outside your family everything. You have this secret you're guarding. And any closed society, you know, any close society, like for example, a lot of people thought that the Hasidin Jews didn't have any child, any sexual exploitation. No, they just wouldn't talk about it. They'll find pretty soon, one woman says, then all these hands go up.

Vance Allred [00:12:26] Any closed society is more likely to have abuse of every kind than an open society. And so inherently the greatest, the worst problem with polygamy, mamma, is that it's a closed society. Because I don't know, I haven't seen any evidence against, say yay or nay, whether if sexual exploitation was more prevalent in polygamous family while it was accepted and practiced openly by the church back up until the late 1880s. I don't know.

Vance Allred [00:12:52] I don't know if anybody could make a statement, yes or no. So it's not polygamy in my mind, it's the closed society that it produces.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] Do you have a sense for how the believing members might have justified the child abuse? Do you think they had some scripture? Do you think they had? Is it just because a leader did it? Is there any chance your dad engaged in that?

Vance Allred [00:13:14] I highly doubt that and I really don't believe from it that either my uncles did but can I say definitively, no. But what I have to then come back to is the fact is the whole person. Because when it came out, when his daughter started saying these things about Joe Thompson, we find out there's a whole lot of things about Joe Thompson that the whole family kept a secret. I guess he would just go into these violent rages. I never heard about that. And so my answer to your question is that I can't say whether or not polygamy is more likely to. That itself is responsible for it. But I do know that there is, unfortunately, a high prevalence of it. But how much higher than it is than the normal population, I couldn't begin to say.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Okay, so 1993 was the end of your. And then you say Uncle Owen tried to destroy you. You don't want to talk about that.

Vance Allred [00:14:13] Well, it's a long story.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Just high level financially.

Vance Allred [00:14:17] Yeah. Real brief. Make a long story very short. I had built three houses in the Alar Group. They had all been maneuvered away from me, and I was left with nothing. I built these things with my own hands. And in 1993, Uncle Owen gave me the title to one of my dad's big houses here in Salt Lake, which I felt was an acknowledgement that I had it coming, that I deserved it.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] Even though you had betrayed him?

Vance Allred [00:14:44] No, no, no. This is before. This is before. This is before. This is before. And so a lot of people thought, well, that's the only reason why you hung onto him. A lot of people say, well, obviously you work to him real close, so he would do that, give that to you. There was never anything like that. There's no quid pro quo. Quid pro quo. I studied Latin. I always have a hard time saying that.

Vance Allred [00:15:05] But then after I left, I left the archive. I stopped attending. I didn't move physically. I was there. But then some of my brothers and sisters remember, well, he shouldn't have any of Dad's property if he doesn't believe anymore.

Vance Allred [00:15:17] And it's so crazy, then how mom and Bob mentality cleans up. So here I had the title of this house, a clear title to a house. It was worth 265,000 doll. And I tell my family, I tell my brothers, I don't want the house. I don't need $260,000. But you can't take everything away from me a fourth time and expect me to start over again. If you give me $50,000, I'll walk away.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] What do you mean, a fourth time?

Vance Allred [00:15:42] I had three other houses, three other Houses that had been diminished and either stolen out right from me or whatever. And so I can't start my life over again.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] And the fourth house was where?

Vance Allred [00:15:54] Right here in Taylorsville, in Taylor's Hill. Because I had built a house. So here's two acres, three houses. I had built one of them, a big duplex. I built that one myself. And my brothers got that away from me, got me to sign a deed over and I never got paid.

Vance Allred [00:16:10] So now then my uncle gives me the one next to it. I did not build that one, but I built the one next to it and I significantly, substantially remodeled this one. Okay, I didn't get paid for that one either. Okay, I get the title of this one. Well, you didn't build that one. Yeah, but I built the other two.

Vance Allred [00:16:25] But then. But to me, the crucial one is simply that I say, I called my brother in law on the phone, who's an attorney, and I said, how much would it cost him to take me to court? He says, this is 1993. He says it would cost him at least 60, 65,000 just to get you in the door by the time you do have to divide. And so that was my figure. I said, you give me 65,000 and I'll walk away because that's what it will cost you. No, you will have nothing.

Vance Allred [00:16:48] And so they all got together and they all voted because I was an apostate now and I would become a traitor to my father's memory.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] Were you excommunicated?

Vance Allred [00:16:55] Well, they don't excommunicate, but if they did that, such a thing, I would have been excommunicated, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] You're just labeled an apostate.

Vance Allred [00:17:00] Yeah, a labeled apostate made very, very clear I was doing that.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] They don't excommunicate.

Vance Allred [00:17:03] No, because there's no official membership.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Got it?

Vance Allred [00:17:09] There's no official membership. They have the corporation, so they can take your money and get the tax collection. But it was a crazy thing. So I found out later when it was all over, if I called my family individually and said, hey, did they tell you that if your family gives me 50,000, I'll walk away?

Vance Allred [00:17:27] They would all go, oh, no, they didn't tell us that. And they would have given me 50,000, I would have walked away. But instead they got everybody together. My mother and my dad's and two of my dad's wives were really upset with me and they painted this picture of me and they all agreed it was all or nothing.

Vance Allred [00:17:43] They were going to take me to court, just crush Me and make me give so that I lost the house. And then one of our brothers said, what if we lose? Well, it's worth it, because we don't want them to have anything because they were that angry with me. So I understand the mentality coming back the other way. So here are the people that I had known and loved for years and years and years. And now, simply because all I did, all I did was stop going to church. That's all I did. That's all I did.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] No, you called them on child abuse, and you made a big stink about child abuse.

Vance Allred [00:18:11] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] You didn't.

Vance Allred [00:18:12] I never. I just stopped going to church.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] That was okay. Inside. You were having problems with it, but you weren't talking about it.

Vance Allred [00:18:19] I figured. No, I figured, hey, if this is my father's group, my uncle's in charge. I've talked to him about the abuse. I never. I never talked publicly about it. I've talked to my uncle about it. I made sure he's aware. And then I find out not only is he aware, there are men on his council who are doing it, and he knows they're doing it. And I know. And I know that my father knew

Legal Fallout and Personal Aftermath of Leaving

John Dehlin [00:18:36] that they weren't a dissident. You just.

Vance Allred [00:18:38] No, I left. I simply left. I said, I'm done. I'm never going back. I never went back.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Okay. And because you went inactive, they came after you, and did they win?

Vance Allred [00:18:51] No, I won the lawsuit. I mean, they knew going in they would lose. And I don't know how much they spent, but I spent $127,000 to defend a $260,000 house.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] So you came away with how much equity?

Vance Allred [00:19:06] By the time was all done, I walked away with $65,000, which is really ironic, but totally severed me from my family, made me an outcast, which is

John Dehlin [00:19:14] what they wanted from your mom?

Vance Allred [00:19:17] From my mother, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Was she alive?

Vance Allred [00:19:18] Yeah, she was alive. Your mom turned on you, and she stood against me.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Your mom stood against you.

Vance Allred [00:19:22] Aunt Melba stood against me. Aunt Mabel stood against me. Your other, your sister, wife, moms, and Annethleen did not.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Now, you just spoke about these women at the beginning of this podcast with so much love and esteem.

Vance Allred [00:19:33] Yeah, I still do.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] And yet they all turned against you, including your own mother.

Vance Allred [00:19:37] They were manipulated and controlled to do it. That's the really scary thing.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] But what was that like to have your mom?

Vance Allred [00:19:43] It was awful.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Sister, wife, mother's attorney case.

Vance Allred [00:19:47] It was awful. That was the lowest point of my entire life.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] And you lost all your siblings?

Vance Allred [00:19:53] Pretty much. In all honesty. In all honesty, and in fairness to them, I had been. I'm not saying I was their favorite brother or anything, but I was very open. I visited with them all. I went out of my way to talk to them all. And I also had the advantage. I was the only monogamist. They're all polygamists, which gave me a lot of freedom, you know, to go visit and be in different social circles. And then suddenly, I stopped going. I didn't show up anywhere. And so then people hear all these things about how dark I would become. My mother, he's talking, he's dark. I'm living right next door to my mother.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] This is sounding very familiar.

Vance Allred [00:20:28] Yeah, I'm living right next door to my mother. She starts telling everybody how dark I am. And one of my sisters says, I heard you're really dark. And I said, I'm pretty, Dan. I said, am I dark? And what really freaked him out is when I started. And we went for a year, we went to the Born Again Christian Church, which I loved, but my sons just couldn't take it because, you know, walking into church and having drum sets and trumpets and electric guitars just wasn't the right to church.

Vance Allred [00:20:53] But then finally I decided there are some things about Mormonism that I really, really, really love. And one of Moroni, chapter eight, you know, and I went Born Again Christian Church. There was this program I went to. It's called Hell's Flames, Heaven's Gates. And it showed these different people. You know, one of them was his family. The father and the son.

Vance Allred [00:21:11] They didn't go to church that day, but the father and the son decide to go see a motocross race instead. The daughter and mother go to the church, and she accepts Jesus, and they die in an auto accident. So it shows mother and daughter being brought into heaven by Jesus, and it shows the devil coming up to drag the little boy away. I thought, I really like that part of Mormonism. And I went back. That's what got me to go back.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] Okay, wait, let's not jump there. So you're betrayed by your mother, your other mothers, all your siblings. Your church abandons you. Yeah, this is all 1993, 94, 95. Okay. And so many times, disaffected LDS Church members end up, over half of the time become either atheist or agnostic because they feel so. They had been so totally consumed by an ideology. I would imagine that for you, having been a tool of them and even become a chief apologist, you might even feel more Betrayed.

Vance Allred [00:22:09] Right. I did.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] Plus it was your dad. So you could, like, you could see how your dad could be a fraudulent prophet. I imagine it might not have been a hard stretch for you to look at Joseph Smith and say, well, he was too, but it sounds like you didn't go there. But anyway. So did you ever have this dark night of the soul where you not only lost faith in the all red flavor of Mormonism, but also in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and God and everything?

Finding a New Spiritual Path After Polygamy

Vance Allred [00:22:36] I did. You did. I didn't become an atheist or agnostic because I started going to the Born Again Christian Church, which brought me to Jesus Christ, and I found the charismatic kind of Born Again Christian religion, which I didn't. I didn't. I can't say that I totally felt like I belonged or that I. Or that I bought the whole thing, but I found comfort and healing there and. But I'm going to say something to you that I think is profound. It's a simple statement that is we all. Every major decision we make is based 100% on emotion. And after we've made that emotional decision, we construct intellectual mental supports to justify and support and excuse why we have made that decision.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Sounds like you've read Jonathan.

Vance Allred [00:23:21] Oh, yeah. But mind is the reference, so I will. But it's not if we're talking about European. Remember, I taught AP History. You know, I can teach philosophy. I never taught it, but I'm simply telling you that I'm very well aware of what I did. And so I went to that show, Heaven's Gates, Hell's Flames, and I walked out of there and I thought, moroni, chapter eight looks really good right now because I can't believe in a God that would send innocent children to hell.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] But what about no God? What about all churches are false?

Vance Allred [00:23:51] Why didn't you ever go there? Well, three things. I've always loved the Book of Mormon. I always loved it. And when chiasmus was found in the Book of Mormon, to me, that to me was just an example of the fact that it's an ancient writing.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] Even though Dr. Seuss has chiasmus.

Vance Allred [00:24:05] Oh, yeah, sure. But the. I love. That's funny. I like that. Yes. Chiasmus. I'm trying to explain to you how and why I came up with my mental constructs. But here I was, a man with a wife whom I greatly loved and five children, and we're all freaking lost.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] Yeah, that's what happens.

Vance Allred [00:24:24] We're freaking lost. What do I do? I went to a Born Again Christian church for A while that brought my wife and my daughter solos, but divided me from my sons. My sons were gravitating back to the Allred group because that's what they knew, including Lance. Oh, yeah. And I looked and I thought, what's

John Dehlin [00:24:40] best for me to have something versus nothing?

Vance Allred [00:24:44] What's best for my wife, what's best for my children? And I looked around and logically and rationally, LDS Church, mainstream LDS Church, was hands down the best choice. And because that's what, you know, it was a different brand, a different style, a different flavor, but still the heart and core. And so the LDS Church enabled me to keep all the things I liked about Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] So what year did you start? 94. 94. You started? Okay.

Vance Allred [00:25:12] I joined the eldest church in 1994.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] Okay, wait, so my understanding is you have to talk to an apostle, right? So tell us about that.

Vance Allred [00:25:20] That was a good one. Yeah, it was really funny because.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] So did you see missionaries? Like, how did you.

Vance Allred [00:25:25] Oh, yeah, we did. I had an interview with James Fauci.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] No, no, no.

Vance Allred [00:25:28] Before that, we went through the missionary discussions. I had been a member of the church and excommunicated when I was a kid. There was a time when my dad had all of his kids join the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] And you had been a member, you've been excommunicated.

Vance Allred [00:25:41] And I was excommunicated later.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] Jodli needed a prophet's permission, but my

Vance Allred [00:25:46] wife had been a member and she was excommunicated. My children had never been members. And so we asked to take the missionary discussions. And then. And my wife's family was. I have to say this about my wife's family. Even when I was a card carrying polygamist, they were always wonderful to me. They were always wonderful to me. Even though I was the wrong kind of Mormon. They loved me and they supported me.

Vance Allred [00:26:07] And so they were. Right away, it's kind of like, well, you know, my family's cut me off. Tanner's family, you know, it's extended family, not close, but they love us. And so we went there and they were wonderful. And then we happened to go to probably the best ward in the entire world. For me, it happened to be the university ward right up by the University of Utah, right there across from Reservoir Park South Temple. And my daughter was just starting medical school and she could get on the bus right there. Lance wanted to play basketball for Rick Majeris. That was his childhood dream. We could be right there by the University of Utah.

Vance Allred [00:26:35] And we moved there. And so we got. And so in the process of buying the house. And then I had this interview with the leadership of the church, and it was real funny. Tana was excited about it, and one of her husbands, one of her cousins whose husband is a bishop, said, I don't know that's anything to be excited about that might not be quite as positive as you think it might be. And so we went there. We got there for the interview, and of course, I knew it was going to be a hard one for me, and so I went in. And so there was a stack at least 11 inches high on top of president spouse desk, and it was all of my books that I published in the COVID sheet.

Vance Allred [00:27:13] On the top was my name and my birth date and where I. Every significant date in my life and then had recorded all three of my marriages. How they got that. They got that from the fundamentalist group, somehow or other, and then my children's stories in there. And I knew right away I was not going to have a good time, and I didn't think I was going to get in.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] So what did he say? Or.

Vance Allred [00:27:32] Well, President Faust rigged me over the coals because he quoted all these things that I'd said, all the high points of all the things I'd say, challenging the church's position and justifying my father's position. It was all right there. Somebody had gone through. Somebody knows everything I had taught. And so they went through that all. And I explained, yes, I taught that I believed that. I no longer believe that it's true. This is why I don't believe that it's true.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] And so how did you justify that you no longer believed it was true?

Vance Allred [00:28:01] Well, I told him, but I still. But I do believe in the Book of Mormon. I still believe in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] No, but when you said, I no longer believe these things, did you give a basis for.

Vance Allred [00:28:08] Oh, yeah, I'll explain why.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] For no longer believing?

Vance Allred [00:28:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] What'd you say?

Vance Allred [00:28:11] Well, I just told him that. I told him, first of all, all those things there. That was. That was all. That was my. Those were my ideas, and I was the one who created those ideas. And so I knew that they weren't true because I was the one who created those ideas.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] You made them up.

Vance Allred [00:28:21] I made them up. It was all my construct. And so now I'm driving in Pinesdale, Montana, last week, and I look at these people and they're going into church to be taught what I wrote. That's hard for me. It's really hard.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] So did Faust. He did rake you over the Coals.

Vance Allred [00:28:40] He raked me over the coals. I didn't believe for a minute I'd get in. He was kind. He was polite. I was going to say kind. He was not unkind. And he was certainly not warm, but he was very polite to me. Elder Worth one was certainly warmer than President Faust was. Like frost. Just like frost.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] So two apostles.

Vance Allred [00:28:59] Two apostles. And then Tana went in and she came out. She would just tears down her face. I knew she'd had a hard time. And she came up. And so then my oldest daughter went in and everybody. I was thinking, everybody loves her.

Vance Allred [00:29:15] So she went in. But while she was still in there, Tana said, she says they're not gonna let us in. I said, no. She said, I didn't know what we were gonna do because we were lost as a family. What were we gonna do? And you know. Cause that was my. Because Mormon fundamentalism had been such an important part of our lives, to simply have that something removed, it's kinda like that's a large part of who we were.

Vance Allred [00:29:37] And it was like, whatever. I can't think of an example more extreme to that to point out. It was just devastating for us. And. But then did not. So I thought I found a safe harbor. And so then Tan and I didn't think we were getting in. And then Raphael came out just beaming this. Oh, that was wonderful. That was so awesome. And then all five kids came out with this wonderful message. And then we dropped the kids off, and then we went to the park and cried. It was just so funny. Talk about coincidence. The two missionaries who had given us the discussions just happened to be going through Fairmont park at the same time.

Vance Allred [00:30:09] And they saw us. Oh, you had your. You know, they thought it was all wonderful. I didn't tell them how devastated it was. But it was during that window that Howard Hunter became president of the church. So we applied for baptism. Ezra Taft Benson died. Elder Faust was still Elder Faust. And it was less than a week later Elder Faust became President Faust and President Howard Hunter called my stake president on the phone. He said, give the Allred the opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] So we were baptized in the church in 94.

Vance Allred [00:30:45] And then in 95, Elder Faust came and sealed us in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Sealed you in the temple? How was that?

Vance Allred [00:30:51] It was neat.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] And all your kids were there?

Vance Allred [00:30:53] Oh, yeah, they were all there. So I don't know what you're expecting. I'm not bitter against the church. I'm not angry against the church. My philosophy is this. I have known a few people who, in 1976, 1977 and even 1978 had enough courage to say, one day blacks will hold the priesthood. They were, if not ostracized, definitely not given callings. They were not disfellowshipped, but definitely not included in the fold. Two years later they were called visionaries

John Dehlin [00:31:32] or forgotten.

Vance Allred [00:31:33] Or forgotten. Or forgotten.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] And what I more likely forgotten.

Vance Allred [00:31:40] But I started. What's real funny is my own journey. I used to be. I was the traditional homophobic man. I thought gays were, you know, terrible. And it was high and it really wasn't until the new DSM IV came out. And then my son, my oldest son's a psychologist and he deals. My youngest daughter is a psychologist too. They're both MSWs.

Vance Allred [00:32:02] And then also then I came to realize that a lot of my students were gay. I taught at Alta High School. I shouldn't say a lot. There were two or three every year that I just flat knew were gay.

Vance Allred [00:32:11] And I realized I absolutely loved those kids. And then I watched them and then I had my students giving oral reports at guys like Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo and they're gay. And somebody. Oh, they weren't gay. Well, yes they were. And I became fascinated by these discussions and, and realized how. And I could tell you that I won't. Some families that you would know. I taught. I had children and grandchildren of general authorities in my classes and they were just so disillusioned by it. I had mothers, fathers call the school complaining because I was teaching homosexuality in school. And I said no, I'm not teaching homosexuality, I'm teaching history. Well, why do you have to bring that up? Why do you have to mention it? Why do you have to.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] So there were children and grandchildren of apostles who were either gay or.

Vance Allred [00:32:55] No, I mean, I'm talking about, I'm saying I had. Their children were in my classes and then they heard me and then they heard these discussions of homosexuality as that weren't anti. No, because by that time to me it was no more. It was no more significant whether or not Leonardo da Vinci, the fact that he's left handed and his brown eye didn't mean any more to me than the fact that he was gay. I mean, that's who he was. But it also explains why his drawings and his statues were all men. And I thought, okay, well that makes sense. That's kind of those kind of dialogues.

Vance Allred [00:33:27] And I would have it. But then a lot of kids who had never felt free to talk before realized they could talk in my class and I didn't Allow anybody to be attacked either side. Every now and once, I had a girl who was really, you know, took a real strong stand on Mormonism in the church, started talking. One of these other kids started to attack her. And I said, with all respect, I defended you a few minutes ago. Please grant her and everybody else the same privilege all the time. So I created that kind of environment in my class, and I had more than a few calls to the school principal because of what I was allowing to be taught in my class.

Vance Allred [00:34:02] And I had this talk with her. She was wonderful. Her husband was the seminary president. I mean, he was president, principal of the seminary right there. And she'd been to my seat, and, you know, she knew my story. And I said. I said, linda, I'm not promoting anything except for open, free dialogue about history.

Vance Allred [00:34:18] And to deny that. I say, you know, she says, well, do you have to tell the kids that Michelangelo was gay? Do you have to tell the kids that Leonardo was gay? And I said, no, I don't have to tell them they were great artists either. I don't have to tell them they were great sculptors either. I don't have to tell them, you know. And she looked at me and she said, do you think it's that important? And I said, yeah. She said, why reading? I said, because I have students I know are gay.

Vance Allred [00:34:42] I know they're gay, and I want them to have role models they can look up to. And I was still active in the church. I was a member of the high council at the time.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] So from 94 to 2015, you were active?

Vance Allred [00:34:56] Believing I was able to make it all work.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] And you served in what kinds of.

Vance Allred [00:35:00] Oh, I've been high priest, group leader, young men's president. I was on psychiat council for years. I taught gospel doctrine. That was my favorite. I taught gospel doctrine for six years.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] And were you sort of a celebrity,

Vance Allred [00:35:12] local celebrity, involuntarily, because, like, this big polygamous family? No, I never talked about it at church. Inside the chapel. I never talked about. I never, ever, ever talked about our polygamous past.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] About your polygamous past.

Vance Allred [00:35:26] I just wouldn't talk about polygamy. I just don't. You know, when I go on Mormon Chapel, I just don't talk because it's just so freaking divisive.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] And when DNC132 comes up, you just bite your tongue.

Vance Allred [00:35:34] Yeah. Just don't say anything. I allow people to view it the way that they do, and that's their choice, because I don't like to create division at all. I'm not that kind of guy ever. But I don't have. I have no trouble standing up for something. I mean, if somebody asks me something, I'll tell you, you know, that some, that a lot of people found. Well, you just don't ask Dance.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] But you didn't feel like you needed to like correct the record if people misspoke about polygamy or Joseph Smith or you just were able to just kind of bite your tongue.

Vance Allred [00:36:00] I figured, yeah, I bite my tongue because it's. I figured, you know, it's kind of like. Remember from the. Good grief, Trade the motor, the series of. You know, the truth is out there when I'm trying to think, what's the name of that spooky. The. Never mind.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Yeah, the TV show.

Vance Allred [00:36:18] Yeah, the truth is out there.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] Right?

Vance Allred [00:36:23] But for whatever reason, just. And when I was an administrator, I didn't go out actively saying, you know, I support gay kids. I like it. I've never seen anything like that. But word get got around really fast, all three high schools that word got around that all read, not even that I quote, like gay kids. But I treated gay kids fairly. I stood up for them, I protected them. I guess that's really. They felt they knew I definitely protected gay kids. And so then I started. I'm not saying they all came to talk to me, but I suddenly had a lot of gay kids who came talking.

Vance Allred [00:36:54] They were not, they were not in my Alphabet. And then I started having their parents come to see me. And some of those. And there were one of three kinds, either one, who's. I don't know what to do. That was, that was, unfortunately, that was the smallest category. Then there were others that. I'm so disappointed, heartbreak. What can I do? What can I do to stop my kid from being gay?

Vance Allred [00:37:17] And I'd have that conversation. I turned to my son, I had pictures of Lance on the wall and I said, my son's hearing impaired. Said he was born that way. That's who he is. Your son was born gay. No, he wasn't. It's a choice. I choose to believe he was born that way.

John Dehlin [00:37:39] Now, looking back, comparing it to a disability, do you feel good about that?

Vance Allred [00:37:43] No, I'm not saying that it's a disability. I'm saying because in essence I would say just like he has blond hair or brown eyes, your son being gay to me is no different than him being left handed or having brown eyes or being 6 foot 3.

Vance Allred [00:37:58] But my point with my son is that's who he is not saying that that's a disability. I'm sorry if I. Thank you for correcting on that, because that's certainly not. What I meant, is that this is who he is.

Vance Allred [00:38:10] You know, because I have had a lot of parents get in my office, and they want to do, you know, this crying jag about this child has this disability. You know, I try to get support, but to me, that's totally useless.

Vance Allred [00:38:23] You know, you go to your minister or ever cry, but, you know, that's not my role. I don't mean to sound harsh, but just. I can't help you with that. What I can help you with, how can I help your son or daughter feel welcome, feel safe, and be successful in my school?

John Dehlin [00:38:38] And so you're having. You're just curious. You're starting to support LGBT stuff?

Vance Allred [00:38:44] Oh, yeah. Really? Big time. In 12, 2012.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Okay, so after Prop 8, kind of four years after Prop A. Yeah.

Vance Allred [00:38:53] Well, really? Well, we had something happen at my school. It was so stupid. Became nationally blown out of context real fast.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] The clubs?

Vance Allred [00:39:02] Yeah, one of the clubs. Well, what happened? What happened? A kid at an assembly. Our school colors were black, silver, and red, but because it's hard to find silver clothes, they had white clothes for the juniors. So the seniors were black, the juniors were white, the sophomores were red. And so there's this spirit assembly, which I hated anyway. And the kids are just so totally out of control. But this kid, everybody. They're not supposed to wear hats. They're not supposed to wear a mask. And I was, quote, unquote, in charge that day. But every time I turn around, I could see kids with masks, kind of like the Seattle Wave.

Vance Allred [00:39:30] On the corner of my eye, I could see the mask. So this kid wants a mask, he can't find a mask. He looks down, he sees a white pillowcase on the ground. So he grabs a white pillowcase, pokes two holes in it. He's a junior wearing white clothes.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] Kkk.

Vance Allred [00:39:43] Exactly. And away it went. And it became, around the world, there were political cartoons about what happened at Alva High School, and it was all in the principal forced to play.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] There was no racism behind that.

Vance Allred [00:39:51] None whatsoever. However, it was viewed to have been racist. It was viewed to have been racist because there was one kid of African American descent thought it was racist. And I said to him, okay, it was racist for you. It was racist. I validate that. And I was so fortunate. This is so totally off the stone, but some kids came up to me right after the assembly. I had three different Sets of kids come to me and give me this kid's name. And I knew the kid, really. He's a nice kid. He was totally clueless. And so I told the other assistant principal, I said, as soon as we're done, I'm going to go the to.

Vance Allred [00:40:20] You have to get that kid and suspend him in school. I can't have that. But they created such a mess in that auditorium that it took me 20 minutes to get down to the office. Well, there's a kid sitting up in the office. Kids of African American descent. Neat, neat kid. He was six years old when he saw a kid. He witnessed a kid. He witnessed a man being murdered in a McDonald's over $5. He came from a very different life. And so he was so upset about that. In his mind, that was racism. So he came to my office to complain to me, and I wasn't there.

Vance Allred [00:40:48] And so then he went to class. So he got into class, and what are the chances that both of those kids would be in the same class out of 105? 105. So they were in the same class. So then the kid of African descent was determined I was going to sweep it under the rug. So he came back already hours. By this time, he was spitting hot and mad. And I had written this other kid's name on a piece of paper. And I walked in and I saw this kid and I said, hey, great. Just a minute. Just give me a minute. I'll be right.

Vance Allred [00:41:13] I walked over and I gave the secretary. I said, would you please call this kid down? I've got to talk to him. So I said, well, come in my office. The kids just started yelling at me. He said, you're going to sweep this under the rug. And I said, no, I'm going to call him. I said, no, I'm calling him down right now. No, no, you're not. You're going to sweep his under the rug. His parents would come down to school. They were so angry with me because they thought I was going to sweep under the rug. I said, okay, this is actually a violated federal law doing this.

Vance Allred [00:41:35] I'll admit. You can never talk about a student to anybody else. So I walked back out to the secretary and I said, would you please give me that piece of paper? So I handed it to him, and I handed it to the kid. I said, now do you believe I was going to call him down?

Vance Allred [00:41:49] That saved my career. If I hadn't had his name beyond that, I would have been the bad guy. Lets me know, you know, these little House. Things get turned on a dime like that.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] How does this tie to the LGBT thing?

Vance Allred [00:42:00] Because of that, our district's new superintendent realized not only did we have to be tolerant of things coming into school, we had to get out in front of all of these things. We had to be the leader. Rather than representing our community, we needed to be out in front of our community. We needed to create an outreach to the Latino kids, the African kids, to the Muslim kids, to this group and to that group. And that offended a lot of white people, because when is it our day? And I talk to the kids, it's your day every day.

Vance Allred [00:42:29] And then the lgbt. And then. And I called over the district office and says, absolutely, absolutely. And if you tell people, ask any question, then I started having people call the school and say, we're going to come pick it. I said, that's your constitutional right. We're supporting it. Well, how do you feel about it? I said, I'm totally in favor of was. By that time, I'd gotten to know a lot of gay kids.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] So normal church experience, leadership callings 2015 happens. Is that. Is that the next story?

Vance Allred [00:42:59] Well, I was already starting to get disillusioned with the church because of their position on gays, homosexuality.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] So Prop 8 and everything.

Vance Allred [00:43:05] Yeah, that's true. Proposition 8 was really hard. I mean, that was really, really hard on me. But my good friends, my bishop and stake presidents convinced me, well, you know, that's, you know, I understand that, but it doesn't really affect you. And I said, well, it offends me as a citizen. It offends me, but is that. Well, is that any reason to keep you from going to church? And I thought, well, can that really. And so here's a question.

Vance Allred [00:43:28] Am I getting to go out and join the groups and start? Because I only have so much time, and I know it sounds like a cop out, but ultimately, I'm always. I'm a pragmatist. Now is what I become in my life. How can I use the best use of my time to do what's best for my family?

Vance Allred [00:43:40] And I decided that going out and opposing things was not what I wanted to do, but rather I chose to find things that I would support. But I was definitely against probate, you know, never. And I, you know, very not vocal about it. Obnoxious. But I walk in any discussion. I say, well, I'm against it. I'm totally against that. And I told my bishop, I said, you understand, I'm against it. And he said, well, it's not A missionary. It's not a temple recommend question. Last time I got a temple recommendation, you support him. And I said, well, I'm not in proposition today. And he says, and this bishop said, I don't think that's really an issue.

Vance Allred [00:44:11] And I don't know, they might excommunicate him today, I don't know. But that's how I got my last temple recommendation. My temple recommend expired last year.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] So in 2015, what happened?

Vance Allred [00:44:23] Well, when the church came out with this new. When this new anti Christian, very unkind, very anti Mormon, very anti Christian, very anti human policy came out saying that children of same sex marriages may not have membership in the church. That is a direct violation and contradiction to the second article of faith. All men, all men are given access to God.

Vance Allred [00:44:49] Men will be banished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression. And to say the children of gay marriages cannot have access to Jesus Christ because of their parents choices. First of all, intellectually it offends me. Intellectually it offends me. Philosophically it offends me. Historically it's just devastating to me. Morally and spiritually it is offensive. Downright offensive.

Vance Allred [00:45:14] So I didn't go to church the next week. High priest group leader called me on the phone, asked me about something. I said, I gotta say I'm not coming back. He said, well, when you come back. I said, well, when those children are gladly accepted into congregation and their parents are welcome to come.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] So that kicked out of the church.

Vance Allred [00:45:31] I was done.

John Dehlin [00:45:31] You haven't been back. Okay, all right. So you left the Allred Church to come to the LDS Church. You maintain to this day a belief in Joseph Smith as prophet and Book of Mormon as God's inspired scripture. How can you leave God's one true church and retain beliefs in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?

Disillusionment With Organized Religion Broadly

Vance Allred [00:45:59] We all make our decisions based upon our emotional responses. How do you make sense of that? And so what I'm saying that is that.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] Are you saying God, the church, has gone astray?

Vance Allred [00:46:10] I'm saying right now is I don't think that. I don't know from where that revelation came, but I know it didn't come from Jesus Christ. He didn't come from the Jesus Christ I worship.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] But the church is still God's church. It's just in error right now in that way.

Vance Allred [00:46:24] I don't know. I want to say in error. I'd say it definitely has a crisis of leadership.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Does this still have the keys? Do keys matter to you anymore?

Vance Allred [00:46:31] Not reading anymore.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] Keys don't matter.

Vance Allred [00:46:33] I don't.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] Crisis of leadership, authority, not as important.

Vance Allred [00:46:40] See? So look at it from my point of view. To me, it's, please understand. I'm not offended. I'm totally enjoying this conversation. I'm enjoying the dialogue going back and forth. And what I'm saying is kind of like this goal, this gulf between your chair and mine. How do I get from this chair to other. I have to step across. Or I can simply say, well, I choose to make a total break there. And I've done a lot of reading of history in the last while and looking at that. And I've stopped reading Mormon scriptures because I know what they say to me. Finally, I've come to the point where I look at it as, am I willing to go out and start joining groups to advocate?

Vance Allred [00:47:23] Have the church changed, put pressure on the church? Do I want to start writing letters? I don't feel that strongly about it. I feel my time is better used with my grandchildren, whatnot. But to me, it's one thing, several gradations to be totally in support of something, actively supporting it, or be totally against it.

Vance Allred [00:47:43] I'm on the other side of this line, but I'm not. But there's this division, definite cut between. So what I'm saying is I'm right here with Mormonism. There's a definite cut away from me and the church because until leadership of the church definitely changes that 180 degrees, I'm not coming back.

Vance Allred [00:48:03] And I don't believe that my access to the celestial kingdom is going to be hampered by that decision at all. And really, I'm reaching the point where I really don't. I really don't think a lot about what's going to happen. I'm going to be cremated when I die.

John Dehlin [00:48:14] How can God let his church go astray?

Vance Allred [00:48:16] That is the question that God allows people to make their choices.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] But this is God's one true church.

Vance Allred [00:48:23] I know, it's terrible. It's tragic, isn't it?

John Dehlin [00:48:25] No, but like, we've already got 6 billion people on the earth that are in the wrong church, right? And then we've got the one right church and God's letting that one go astray. Like, what does that say about God?

Vance Allred [00:48:35] What it says to me about God is he allows people to make their own choices.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] That's a pretty messed up plan, isn't it?

Vance Allred [00:48:41] Yeah, it is. It is.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] But it's still the true church for you.

Vance Allred [00:48:46] I won't say it is the true church with a capital T. I don't think it is. I think it is a true church. I think there are a lot of churches out there that have the truth.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] So Christianity is still true. Mormonism, the LDS Church, is just one way to access Christ.

Vance Allred [00:49:02] I think it's a very. We haven't talked about this at all, but Mormonism is the most, without doubt, in my mind, the most sophisticated Christian belief system that has ever been created.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] So it's the best of a lot of Christianity.

Vance Allred [00:49:18] It's definitely the best of a lot

John Dehlin [00:49:19] of true Christian churches, But not based on authority, just based on its sophistication of doctrine.

Vance Allred [00:49:25] Definitely sophistication of doctrine. That, to me, that really. That appeals to me intellectually, spiritually. It doesn't do anything for me.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] Right.

Vance Allred [00:49:34] My wife and I. I stopped praying for quite a while because I was just so disillusioned because kind of like, you know. You know, but I just, you know, in the Book of Mormon, the story where the waters of Helam and Waters of Helam. Where waters of Mormon. Excuse me. Where Alma the younger is getting ready to baptize. Alma the older is getting ready to go stammering. Alma the Older is getting ready to baptize Helam. And he calls them down into the water and he talks about, you know, all can come. All can come to Christ. And I didn't see anything there about children of gay marriages being excluded. And I'm not coming back until they are. Until they're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Are you worried they might excommunicate you? What?

Vance Allred [00:50:10] I don't care.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] Why?

Vance Allred [00:50:12] I don't care.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:50:14] Doesn't matter to me.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:50:17] Because, you know, once you. Once you've been. Once you've been ostracized and cut off, like, I have lost my family, lost everything, had everybody stand against me. He's kind of like, well, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] Okay, so have you heard of Letter to a CES Director? CES Letter?

Vance Allred [00:50:37] I have heard of it. I haven't seen or read it, no.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Have you heard of Grant Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins? Have you read that book?

Vance Allred [00:50:45] No, I haven't.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Okay. Have you studied the sort of the modern critiques of the Book of Mormon, its historicity, the issues around anachronisms, horses, steel, all that stuff?

Vance Allred [00:51:00] No, I haven't read any of those books. My response to you is that I'm just simply not interested in them. And I'm not denying their scholastic worth or their scholarship. It's kind of like I spend, like, for example, I would far rather read about ancient Greece and the Egyptians rather than take the Time to read that. To me. To me, it's simply an esoteric thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Do you believe that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record of actual people that lived 2,000 years ago?

Vance Allred [00:51:33] I still have. I haven't decided on that one.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] Isn't that kind of important if you believe in the book?

Vance Allred [00:51:39] See, but there are several things about the book that I love, so I'm not going to throw out the whole thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] So if you love the book and love the prose and have had good feelings about it, then its actual veracity is less important to you.

Vance Allred [00:51:54] Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:55] So you're open to the fact that it could be fiction.

Vance Allred [00:51:57] I'm saying I don't care.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] You don't care if it's fiction?

Vance Allred [00:52:00] No, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Because it's made you feel.

Vance Allred [00:52:03] Because it makes me feel good and I enjoy reading it. And every time I read it, I feel good.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] So when Warren Jeffs people say that Warren Jeff's made them feel good, do you ever draw that line?

Vance Allred [00:52:15] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:52:15] I'm doing the same thing.

Vance Allred [00:52:16] More, Jeff? Yeah, absolutely. And because I have, for example, no matter which I understand what you're saying and I understand what you're going. I'm admitting to I'm illogical and I'm admitting to that I'm irrational. And I'm explaining to you. I can explain to you why I'm illogical and I'm irrational because I've chosen what I like.

Vance Allred [00:52:35] I choose to like that. I choose not to like that, and I choose to like this. And they're not consistent. They're not rational. They do not fit into a larger system. Systemology. I don't. But at the same time, I feel oftentimes people who become very disillusioned with the church kind of like to throw out the baby with the bathwater and saying, well, there's a whole lot of good. The eldest church does a whole lot of good in the world. Do I go to Carmac anymore? No. Do I watch Carmen anymore? I'll sit down and watch a mission.

Vance Allred [00:53:02] Do I pay? Yeah. I make contributions to the church. I don't pay my tithe. I don't pay tithing for the money to the church because I think the. Their fast offerings, I think are great. But at the same time, I pay to the homeless movement here in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] Does your wife attend?

Vance Allred [00:53:19] Neither of us does. We both had exactly the same reaction at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] But you haven't chosen to remove your names from the church. Why not?

Vance Allred [00:53:26] It's not important to me. Again, it's A statement. It's making a statement. When I was on the High Council, I went through experiences when I say went through, because I don't. Where people wanted to make a statement, have their name removed. To me it was kind of like, why spend all that energy for something like that and just walk away? I realize different people, I respect that there are people who want to make a statement. They want to stand up. This is what I believe. And there are times that I stand up, but I'll stand up against something that I feel has the potential really to harm people. But here again it's. But is having my names removed from the church the equivalent of that? I don't think it is. Which is. My wife and I have talked about it. We haven't decided.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Not so of your children, how many are still active and believing?

Vance Allred [00:54:16] My oldest daughter is very active and believing.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] The doctor, where does she live?

Vance Allred [00:54:19] In Oregon.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] In Oregon. So she's still the golden child?

Vance Allred [00:54:23] Yep. Well, she's not my golden child in the church. Right. I would say. But she's very happy with it and we all, all of us are very happy for her. We all support her in that choice.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] And how many other children do you have?

Vance Allred [00:54:34] Well, I have seven other children. McTan and I have four other children.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] Okay, so of your seven children, she's the only one. All the rest, what are their beliefs or.

Vance Allred [00:54:43] They range from everything. Well, I take that my oldest son is active. He lives in Australia.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] He's active but maybe not totally believing.

Vance Allred [00:54:50] Well, he's not as far I know I can't. I choose not to speak for him. That's fine, but he's not as active as my daughter is. But my point is that it's kind of like we just went to my. My wife's niece got married this weekend. So here's my mother in law. She has all these great grandchildren. And only two? No, only one of them is active LDs. Only one. But they all love each other. They all prefer to be with each other. They all enjoy each other. It's company immensely. Sometimes they kid each other back and forth, but it doesn't divide us.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] So do you have any children who are polygamists?

Vance Allred [00:55:31] No.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] So none are believers in polygamy or followers of polygamy. And then how many of your kids just don't believe in the church at all?

Vance Allred [00:55:40] Right. Some of them don't believe in the church at all. Some of them, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Okay.

Vance Allred [00:55:43] They don't believe in the church at all.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] Now Lance has kind of come out openly non believing.

Vance Allred [00:55:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] Does he identify as atheist or agnostic or.

Vance Allred [00:55:50] Well, I mean, here again, I'll let him tell you that.

John Dehlin [00:55:53] Okay, well, how do you feel about the fact that he's no longer believing or in the church?

Vance Allred [00:55:59] I'm proud of him for he knows what he wants and I'm happy for him and he's my son and I support him completely.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] Was there any part of you that's like, hey, come on, Stan it, or, hey, keep to the Book of Mormon because there's truth there?

Vance Allred [00:56:11] Not at all.

John Dehlin [00:56:11] Why not?

Vance Allred [00:56:12] That would be inconsistent with who I am. I love all my children, period. I love them all unconditionally, which means that I not only accept what they are and who they are, but I love who they are and what they are. If my son's an atheist, I love the fact that he's an atheist.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] What's it like to go through this epic Mormon fundamentalist and then Mormon journey and then to, like, now not be a part of it at all? Do you ever wish you had just never been affiliated with it at all?

Vance Allred [00:56:43] My wife and I just been, like, Baptist or Ted and I talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] What a mess.

Vance Allred [00:56:48] It's kind of like. It's kind of like going to see this really dramatic movie, and suddenly it gets to the very end. It's kind of like, you gotta be kidding me. That's not it. Okay, So I was talking about my children. All of my children are on the spectrum religiously. And it's real interesting because my daughter Tara was. She wanted to do LGBT long before it became popular with anybody. When she. She became a social worker. This is like 10 years ago. This is what I want to do.

Vance Allred [00:57:13] And then at the time, I was a very active Mormon. I was a member of the High Council. And I couldn't have been more proud of her. That's how she felt about it. And in my mind, good parents and good people love other people unconditionally, regardless of what they think, regardless of what they say, as long as they do, as long as they're not doing harm to someone else and I refuse to participate in harmony.

Vance Allred [00:57:39] And then you could say, well, if you don't stand up against something, then that's harming too. I understand all of that, but I've seen so many people make choices in my life. They become so involved against something that they don't stand for something.

Vance Allred [00:57:57] And so it's like, I've done a lot of things in my life of which I'm really proud. The thing that has the greatest value to me is That I have these eight incredible children. All of them have different beliefs. They all have different views on so many things, except none of them has voted for Donald Trump. That's something I can say unequivocally, but the fact that I love them all completely is my greatest accomplishment. And that's the thing of which I'm most proud, Because I love that he's the most famous one.

Reflections on Polygamy, Family, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Lance, you were gonna say something else. You were talking about us having conversations or threads. You were coming in to say something about how we. You've thought about these things before.

Vance Allred [00:58:44] Oh, yeah. So I've.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] Do you remember what you were gonna say?

Vance Allred [00:58:48] Not specifically.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] Okay, that's fine.

Vance Allred [00:58:50] Just all these threads are going on. To me, I love the fact that there are these dialogues. I love the fact that people are talking about it. And. And I wish the church were open to that thing. I wish that were part of the heritage of the Mormon Church, as people would be able to say, well, wait a minute, I have a problem with Section 132. Or, you know, I don't like Section 52. Or, you know, I have a hard time believing that this alma really existed. But instead, they're taboo subjects. You know, you just, you know, you always. And that's just not healthy.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] So my friend Lindsay Hanson park, who did this podcast called year of polygamy, 100 episodes on polygamy, she says that for her, all the unhealthy things in the LDS Church today come from polygamy in some way.

Vance Allred [00:59:49] That's her view. I totally disagree with that because I

John Dehlin [00:59:51] was gonna say, this prohibition on open discussion about difficult topics, can you tie that to our polygamous heritage of, like, keep things quiet and obey and obedience is better than, you know, everything? Like, for you, you don't make that connection.

Vance Allred [01:00:08] Not at all.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] Okay.

Vance Allred [01:00:09] One of the most open, liberated societies of which I have ever read in my entire life was Utah before 1890. And the open discussion, the dialogues and the search for meaning and search for learning and understanding, and it didn't matter that you were polygamist or non polygamist in the church. That's kind of like. That's kind of like. That's my renaissance of Mormonism time.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] So it's not polygamy that's necessarily the bad guy. It's the secrecy and the closed culture and the closed society.

Vance Allred [01:00:43] Right. That's the toxic.

John Dehlin [01:00:46] Not the polygamy itself.

Vance Allred [01:00:47] Polygamy itself. I don't have anything good to say about polygamy, but in polygamy's defense, it's so common to all cultures in the world have had polygamy at some point or another in their history. It's the basic law of the jungle all the way from the very most the dominant male takes the women.

Vance Allred [01:01:06] That's not the issue to me. In my mind, yes, I far prefer monogamy. I love total equality between men and women. So. But if a woman chooses to go into polygamy after knowing all this, being a totally liberated woman, let's say, like for example, my wife, one of my daughters wanted to go and polygamy, I'd say, well, you know, to each his own. I don't think that's evil. I don't think it's bad.

Vance Allred [01:01:30] I would question their sanity or the judgment. People voting for Donald Trump. I've just been mind boggled how many well educated I know think that guy would be a good president. But that's plenty. Is not the issue. It's the secretive closed society that enables them to have access to innocent people whom they can control and brutalize. That's what's wrong.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Do you still believe that God told Joseph to practice polygamy? Do you believe in Section 132, the Doctrine of Covenants?

Vance Allred [01:01:59] That one is a really, really hard question and I honestly can't tell you. I can say I definitely don't. I don't disbelieve it and I don't believe it right now. I'm kind of like. Because really, that is the most important revelation in all of Mormonism. It's kind of like the hinge on which it all turns. Not really. It's too significant of a piece to ignore because it talks about so many things in it. But if that isn't true, then Mormonism isn't true. Mormonism cannot stand without that. But you believe in Mormonism again, But Mormonism is based on the premise that you have a prophet who talks with God and who speaks for God

John Dehlin [01:02:39] and you're not seeing that.

Vance Allred [01:02:40] I know God. I know for sure God. I know God would not have said those children may not come in my church because they're children of that same sex, same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] So are you saying you don't believe in Mormonism anymore?

Vance Allred [01:02:52] I'm saying that right now they're having a crisis of leadership and I'm having a crisis of followership.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] But again, you're holding to the Book of Mormon as God's word.

Vance Allred [01:03:04] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] But you're questioning whether God's leading the church.

Vance Allred [01:03:08] Right. I realize here again that that's inconsistent.

John Dehlin [01:03:11] So it's Just a paradox.

Vance Allred [01:03:12] Yeah, to me, it's a paradox.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Okay, so for you, it's possible that God didn't tell the Joseph Smith to be a polygamist?

Vance Allred [01:03:22] It's possible. But still at the same time, it's just. I love all of your questions. It's. And to me, it's so significant. And I can only imagine how hard it is for a lot of people that I've heard the same discussion goes like this. You love your son even though he's gay. You accept your son's choices even though he's gay.

Vance Allred [01:03:49] Do you still believe in the church? But how can you believe in the church if your son is gay? Come and have dinner with you. I've heard that dialogue too. And to me, it's ultimately, you're looking at logic non sequiturs. Just because a woman loves her son and allows him into her house doesn't mean that she doesn't believe in the church anymore. Is she in harmony with the church's teachings? No.

Vance Allred [01:04:13] And so that's kind of like I'm saying every question you're asking, my response would be kind of like, it's the same kind of thing. You know, you try to make me make a clear cut. Yes or no? Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, slice it like that. But my point is that we humans are not like that. We want others to be like that so that we can understand how others think and how others feel. And we'd love to categorize and classify.

Vance Allred [01:04:39] But the real heart core of us, I believe, is an immortal soul. I believe that I've never changed on that. And I think in that dimension, I really honestly think when we leave this dimension, we'll go, what the heck was I so upset about that?

Vance Allred [01:04:57] Was that really that important? And one of the greatest horror things in my mind is to vision battle Satan's, you know, World War I or World War II, or all these men killing each other. And then I believe their bodies lying dead and their spirits rise out of that and look at each other kind of like, gosh, did we really just do that?

Vance Allred [01:05:17] And I think that's what Mormon culture is doing to itself right now. You have all these people who used to be really happy Mormons when their children didn't admit to being gay. You know, my mother said, pardon me, why couldn't he just not told me he was gay? Why couldn't he keep it a secret?

Vance Allred [01:05:38] I think, well, yeah, lady, that would have made life easier for you. Would have made life easier for you. But this is your Son, we're talking about here. And sometimes I feel like I start to do that too with this whole thing. It's kind of like, you know, because ultimately, and this sounds so stupid, but one of the greatest quotes of the 20th century was Rodney King, can't we all just try to get along?

Vance Allred [01:06:06] And the fact that this just boggles my mind that the church leadership today, instead of saying, if you disagree with this, please, you're welcome to come to church, we don't condemn you, but make it a litmus test that you're not a good member of the church unless you support this.

Vance Allred [01:06:27] That's like the temple recommendation here again at General Conference. I watched that last week when I was with my daughter in Oregon. Do you support the president of the church as prophets, terrorists and revelators? And they didn't go on ESSENCE where they say, at all times and in all things and in all ways.

Vance Allred [01:06:41] And with that one. And this is a cop out. I know it's a cop out. My great grandfather was Mormon in Utah, in Cache county, and he actually drove one of the relief wagons back to pick up the handcart company. And that's how he met my grand. My great grandmother. And so this is the same guy, George Lloyd, and he was out working on his fences, and Brigham Young was coming up to speak in Logan, and all the farmers were going out to the road. We're going to go out and see President. Yeah, we're going to go out and see Brother Brigham. Aren't you coming with him?

Vance Allred [01:07:09] And he says, no, I'll see him tomorrow in Logan when he's a prophet. And I think that that's been lost in Mormon culture in that I don't believe Thomas Monson. I don't believe Gordon B. Hinckley, whom I absolutely loved. I don't think he was prophet all the time. I think he was prophet some of the time. I think he was Prophet maybe 2% of the time. I don't know. But we Mormons love absolutes because we are the only religion that I can think of who claims to have all the truth.

Vance Allred [01:07:40] Islam doesn't claim that. Not even Catholicism claims that. Mormons claim to have all the truth. And it's a paradox. We become the best educated people in the world because we're seeking for that. We want to be able to explain why.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] So if I were to say, you seem to be saying you throw away logic and reason and even history because the feeling of your faith trumps all,

Vance Allred [01:08:00] would you say that's fair in some things? In some things, yes.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] In the core of your religious belief?

Vance Allred [01:08:07] In the core of my religious beliefs. And so then ultimately, then you realize, well, I'm no different from the polygamists. True. But you look at it, Mormonism is like any other faith. It comes down to ultimately you believe something because you choose to.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] So you choose to.

Vance Allred [01:08:24] I choose to.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] Well, Vance Allred, thank you for joining us on Mormon Stories. It's been a real pleasure and a delight to get to know you a little bit.

Vance Allred [01:08:31] You know, it's been fun here. Thank you for inviting me.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Yeah. And listeners, we're going to interview Lance next, but please, please come to the mormonstories.org leave comments, feedback, constructive feedback for Vance. If you have any insights or, you know, thoughts, please share. We're really grateful for your support. We're grateful for this time. And, and we'll be following this up with an interview of Vance's son, Lance, who's got his own really interesting story. So again, Vance, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. And good luck.

Vance Allred [01:09:06] Thank you for having me. Thank you. Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] All right, take care.

Vance Allred [01:09:08] Bye.

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