Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Carah Burrell
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing the Episode and Brad Wilcox's Controversial Speech
Carah Burrell [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Mormon Stories podcast channel. I am one of your hosts for today, Carah Burrell, joined by.
John Dehlin [00:00:07] I'm John. John Dehlin. Unshaven.
Carah Burrell [00:00:09] The unshaven John Dehlin, Unkempt.
John Dehlin [00:00:12] Why am I unkempt, Carah?
Carah Burrell [00:00:14] Why am I so ghostly and pale and white? It's because we've been spending all of our time, day and night.
John Dehlin [00:00:18] It's Brad Wilcox week on Mormon Stories.
Carah Burrell [00:00:21] That's why we look the way that we do in jest.
John Dehlin [00:00:24] I'm literally wearing the clothes I wore two days ago and yesterday, if anyone notices.
Carah Burrell [00:00:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:00:29] And I haven't shaved.
Carah Burrell [00:00:30] Right. So we're live today from the Mormon Stories studios in Holiday Utah, bringing you a brand new segment that we're introducing right now. This is the announcement. We have a new live, hopefully weekly nighttime segment that'll be coming out called Mormon Scoops that I'm really excited about. So we're gonna be.
John Dehlin [00:00:49] Let's show them the thumbnail.
Carah Burrell [00:00:50] There's our thumbnail.
John Dehlin [00:00:51] Mormon Scoops.
Carah Burrell [00:00:52] Hope all you young kids like my thumbnail too. So tries to use bright colors and minimalism. Anyway, what's the concept?
John Dehlin [00:00:59] What's the concept?
Carah Burrell [00:01:01] What's the concept of Mormon Scoops? We want to be able to cover like topical new items that are on the minds and hearts of people in the Mormon ex Mormon space and do it in a timely manner and be able to incorporate your comments. So please, if you are on whether Facebook or on YouTube, we want to get comments and feedback about what's happening in the news right now. So we had to kind of jump on doing the episode yesterday that we did that a lot of people watched and tuned into about Brad Wilcox's speech to the youth at a fire fireside in Alpine, Utah.
John Dehlin [00:01:34] Did you notice there's 30, 000? We have 30, 000 views on that episode 24 hours later.
Carah Burrell [00:01:39] Incredible. And Tick Tockers have been sharing it and we have a understanding Mormonism channel that's more of like the shorts channel as opposed to YouTube. We'll have more long form things here, but we, we chopped up those clips. We put them on the Understanding Mormonism channel. I'll probably put that in the link below if you want to check it out. So this channel, we normally obviously do longer format things. The Mormon Scoops episodes, we're going to keep them really short and just topical vibe back and forth with the community. What you guys are saying, incorporate comments. And like I was saying yesterday, we kind of had to jump on this episode that we wanted to do covering Brad Wilcox's entire speech. And so today is just going to be more about the things that still need to be addressed. And we came up with a top 10 things that whether Brad Wilcox's speech kind of unveiled, because again, it's not about his speech necessarily. It's about the system that's larger than just, you know, this myopic view of his speech. So we wanted to Talk about top 10 lists that John and I just created and have you guys incorporate your comments, questions, concerns, and just keep this conversation going. How's that, John?
John Dehlin [00:02:41] Let's do it. Let's do it. All right, so I'm going to go ahead and just show a couple slides. So, Carah, we talked about what we could talk about for our inaugural Mormon Scoops episode. And we came up with this idea of top 10 problems with Mormonism, the Brad Wilcox speech unveiled. And I really think you bring up a lot of important points, but let's just start with an update on the Brad Wilcox situation. So basically, we tried to. To begin yesterday's episode by saying that it's not about Brad. We're not here to trash Brad. We're not here to pile on Brad. We're not here to shame Brad. I, I really, I think I'm going to make the case today that Brad is part of a larger system for sure.
Carah Burrell [00:03:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:03:22] And, and Blad just. Brad reflects the system. He represents the system. He isn't the problem.
Carah Burrell [00:03:28] Right.
John Dehlin [00:03:30] And, and we tried to begin our episode yesterday with that. And so like you said, Carah, we released the episode. It's. It's received 30,000 views in less than 24 hours, which is really remarkable. And it just shows how important and interesting that episode was. As you mentioned, Carah, we went ahead and released the full fireside, broken up into nine segments on our Understanding Mormonism YouTube channel. And just the P is for Priesthood episode has over 20,000 views again in, in less than one day. That's because that priesthood section is probably the most egregious of all of them.
Carah Burrell [00:04:06] Right.
John Dehlin [00:04:06] It's not only where he talks about the racism, but he also talks about women and the priesthood. And it just turned out to be the most offensive of all the segments. Although it's a race, because so many of the segments really were offensive.
Carah Burrell [00:04:21] It was bad, and then it got worse and then it got racist and then it got a little bit sexist. And then it just, like, was like.
John Dehlin [00:04:27] And all the way through it was anti Christian and anti ex Mormon. So I mean, it was, it was a, it had, it was A tough speech. It was a. Yeah, but again, that's not. Brad, Brad. Brad was simply voicing the Mormon Church and its teachings. We'll get to that. So anyway, my point is, is that everything has gone viral. TikTok, Reddit and Facebook all blew up with Brad Wilcox commentary. Here's just one post from Reddit. Thanks Brad Wilcox for being the last straw. And it's a, it's a faithful member's resignation from the Mormon Church. And honestly, again, we're not trying to pile on, but I, I do. Like I, I talked with Alan Mount. Alan Mount for marriage on a Tightrope. He and his wife Katie, who's a faithful believing Mormon, they support mixed faith couples. On their podcast. Many, many of those mixed faith couples are now in crisis where the believing member of the mixed faith marriage is basically saying, man, if the church is going to talk this way about my non believing spouse, what, how does that fare for our marriage anyway?
Carah Burrell [00:05:27] And our children who are supposed to be believing these things about their mom or dad, respecting. Yeah, respecting their parents, it just really poisons the well. It's not conducive to a healthy dynamic.
John Dehlin [00:05:38] There's no way that this is going to be as big as the November 15 policy. But it reminds me of the type of energy and outrage that the November 15 policy had, which we know caused a lot of people to leave the church. This is going to be a mini version of that, but it at least deserves to be mentioned. I mean, it's probably the biggest thing you've been involved with since you've joined stories.
Carah Burrell [00:05:58] Yeah, for sure. Something that we did, like it feels like moved the needle a little bit. That's incredible.
John Dehlin [00:06:04] Yeah. So yeah, TikTok, Reddit, Facebook all blew up with Brad Wilcox commentary. If you literally go to Exmormon Reddit right now or TikTok and you scroll through TikTok, it's Brad Wilcox. Brad Wilcox, Brad Wilcox, Brad Wilcox.
Carah Burrell [00:06:17] Same with Twitter.
John Dehlin [00:06:17] Reddit, you know, Twitter, it's just, it's all lit up. So of course what that does is it makes the church embarrassed. I've always said, Carah, maybe you've heard me say this. The two most sacred things in the
Carah Burrell [00:06:29] Mormon Church are obedience and authority.
John Dehlin [00:06:34] I would say priesthood authority. Okay, so obedience to authority is right there. And then pr, like, like the church needs good pr. And when it gets bad pr, that's when the church wakes up. And of course this, this caused so much bad PR for the church that I would, I'll say this comically and not seriously. I was Made a prophet because on the Mormon Stories podcast page, when I posted a link to the original, you know, Alpine, Utah video of the fireside, I wrote above it. This is the original link that we expect will be taken down very soon. And honestly, Carah, I expected the link to be taken down while our program was still going.
Carah Burrell [00:07:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:07:15] Or within an hour or two afterwards. It actually, I didn't find it being taken down until eight or nine in the night, but it was taken down within four or five hours of our broadcast.
Carah Burrell [00:07:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:07:26] And so what that means is that the outrage and the backlash was so overwhelming that the church responded same day. That's a pretty fast response. Yeah. So, okay.
Carah Burrell [00:07:37] Oh, still available on the Understanding Mormonism channel.
John Dehlin [00:07:39] Yeah. So if you go to understanding Mormonism on YouTube, you can watch the whole thing in nine. In nine parts. We broke it up in nine parts so that the church wouldn't sue us and file a copyright infringement suit and make us take it down. Okay.
Carah Burrell [00:07:52] And then let me just add to people in the live chat. We want to integrate your comments, questions and concerns, everything that you guys have in your mind, because we've, we've compiled a lot of this list of that we're about to get into from reading a lot of the comments, watching the tick tocks from today, you know, looking at Twitter, realizing there's more and more problems the more that we uncover and just keep reading things. So we want to integrate your comments and make you guys part of the conversation.
John Dehlin [00:08:14] And a lot of our thoughts today are based on comments that. That you guys have already shared with us or others. Okay. So finally, just to kind of finish it, to his credit, I think, you know, you always want to be generous when someone apologizes. I try to. I make mistakes. I've made big mistakes. I try to apologize. And you want to have good faith when someone else apologizes. Good faith interpretation. And to his credit, I'm guessing, Brad, assuming it was sincere, Brad Wilcox made an apology. Do you want to read that?
Analyzing Brad Wilcox's Apology
Carah Burrell [00:08:45] Carah says, my dear friends, I made a serious mistake last night and I am truly sorry. The illustration I attempted to use about the timing of the revelation on the priesthood for black members was wrong. I've reviewed what I said, and I recognize that what I hope to express about trusting God's timing did not come through as I intended. To those I offended, especially my dear black friends, I offer my sincere apologies and ask for your forgiveness. I am committed to do better.
John Dehlin [00:09:16] Yeah, and we could die. We could probably spend an entire episode dissecting that apology.
Carah Burrell [00:09:21] We'll Let you draw your own conclusions.
John Dehlin [00:09:23] Yeah, maybe we'll do that another time. We don't want to, like, slap him in the face by, like, picking that apart. We want to say, good job, Brad Wilcox. Good job apologizing. That's. That's hard to do. It's a good thing to do. It's the right thing to do, and we're super glad you did it.
Carah Burrell [00:09:38] And we already had people chiming in. We will get to this. Chris said, was it really an apology, though? It turned into blame shifting by the end.
John Dehlin [00:09:47] Yeah. Was he forced? Was he forced?
Carah Burrell [00:09:49] We'll address it.
John Dehlin [00:09:50] Yeah.
Carah Burrell [00:09:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:09:51] Was it a substantive response? Was it a credible response? You know, did it go far enough? There's lots of ways we could, but I don't want to do that exactly right now. Then it follows up with both Deseret News and the church News, commenting and weighing in, which. Which basically that's how we know that the church was really angry and upset. And that's what makes us wonder whether this was Brad or the church forcing Brad.
Carah Burrell [00:10:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:15] Because clearly the church PR machine was ready to promote his apology as soon as it was made. So, you know, so the church weighed in. We know the church is worried about bad pr, but here's the first point I want to make. This is not about Brad Wilcox. It's just not. It's not saying, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Carah Burrell [00:10:35] It's a picture of him going, slow down, Whoa. Not about Brad.
John Dehlin [00:10:38] It is not about Brad Wilcox. Right. It's not about Brad Wilcox. Brad Wilcox is a symptom of a much more larger problem. So this today's episode is to really cover that, and it's to kind of try and explain it. So, Carah, now what I want to do, I've come to get you, and I kind of came together with 10 problems that Brad Wilcox's speech unveils. And I just want to. I'll present them to you, and then you can either ask me questions or respond. Is that okay?
Carah Burrell [00:11:06] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:11:06] And we'll try and be as efficient. We'll try and do this under 30 minutes, 45 minutes or whatever.
Carah Burrell [00:11:11] I was thinking, like 20 minutes.
John Dehlin [00:11:14] Okay. All right.
Carah Burrell [00:11:15] And by also just at the top of the program, I wanted to announce that super chats are a great way to donate to the podcast to get your comments highlighted. I already want to shout out to Matt, and the comment, like, disappeared. I'll find it in a second. Yeah. So thanks, everyone, for your super chats. If you want to donate to the podcast, an easy way to do it is hit that dollar sign in the bottom of the YouTube comment section and send us a couple bucks and let us put on the screen what you want to say. And just a huge thanks to anyone who does that, who uses that way to donate to the pod, to the podcast.
John Dehlin [00:11:47] I mean, literally, your super chats will go to help make sure we can keep car on to do this type of programming. So. So thank you for the super chats. All right, so, Carol, I'll start and. And I'll just. I'll kind of present these to you and then you give me a reaction. Is that okay? Okay. So the first problem that Brad Wilcox's speech unveiled is the following is that the Mormon Church has a doctrine and a theology and a bigotry problem. So you know what was wrong with Brad's talk? Okay. There was racism in it. There was misogyny or, you know, anti feminism in it. There was severe anti Christian rhetoric about. About Christian churches being inferior or just completely invalid. And then there's a lot of anti ex Mormon or anti Mormon apostate rhetoric. And there was some deception regarding church history and Joseph Smith. Those are the at least five things that I unveiled, in addition to sort of an inadequate education system that manipulates, distorts information, coerces through emotion, and manipulates the youth and adults. So. But that's not Brad. Brad is simply a product of that system. Yeah, and. And the racism and the misogyny and the homophobia or the anti Christian rhetoric, the anti ex Mormon rhetoric. That's Mormonism.
Systemic Problems the Speech Revealed
Carah Burrell [00:13:11] And may I quote Brad when he said, like, this BYU student was separating God and Jesus. Who taught you to do that? It was Joseph Smith. May I use that same analogy? Who taught Brad to do that? It's the church leadership. It's the system that he was born into, raised into, educated in a church education system. This is again, just a product of this design. This is not like a cog in the machine. This is the machine.
John Dehlin [00:13:33] Yeah. And Carrie, you made the point that this is Mormonism unveiled. This is the true Mormonism that Brad revealed. So he didn't betray the Mormon Church. He didn't mislead us about Mormon doctrine, theology, and cultural perceptions. He simply revealed it.
Carah Burrell [00:13:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:50] So. So that is. But the problem is, is, you know, we also know that Brad has been teaching these things forever, Right?
Carah Burrell [00:14:00] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:00] And that this is what the church education system teaches. This is what prophets, seers, and revelators teach. This is what Mormon scripture teaches. This is all baked in. So what was the problem?
Carah Burrell [00:14:10] It's that it was like Released on the Internet.
John Dehlin [00:14:14] The problem was it was recorded and then released on the Internet and that's how we found out about it. Like, for how many decades or centuries have talks like this been happening? In firesides, you know, behind closed doors, in seminary buildings, in institute buildings, in Sunday school rooms. Everybody's fine with it because everybody's in the. In group. But this talk was not intended for the general public.
Carah Burrell [00:14:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:38] That's what happened. And so in that sense, I think Brad's a fall guy. He's a fall guy for just being the one who happened to speak what we all know is real Mormonism.
Carah Burrell [00:14:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:50] And we've known this for decades.
Carah Burrell [00:14:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:53] So that's the first point, totally, is that Brad simply revealed Mormonism and the church is embarrassed that the public knows what the church says and thinks behind the scenes.
Carah Burrell [00:15:03] Yeah. Let me highlight JD's comment that said. Exactly. He's saying, what is underneath the belly of the church. We're where the true church is. I can't read where the true church. And this is how it is. If you're not in, you're out. Yeah, I think that's perfectly said.
John Dehlin [00:15:22] Okay.
Carah Burrell [00:15:23] Not by me, because I can't read.
John Dehlin [00:15:24] Thank you, Brad, and thanks for the super chats that are coming in. They make this program sustainable.
Carah Burrell [00:15:29] But if you disagree and you think that this is Brad just kind of being a jerk, you can let us know. Otherwise, I think that this is a systemic problem. And it's always a systems, not people thing, is what we're trying to change and. Correct. Correct here. It's not just one person. We can't just call out Brad Wilcox. Then let's say he gets fired. Like the problem still persists.
John Dehlin [00:15:47] Yeah. We do not want this to impact his livelihood, his job. That terrified me. We'll talk about that in a second. There are going to be progressives, by the way, like Patrick Mason or Terrell and Fiona Givens. They're going to say, this isn't Mormonism. I would just say that if it's taught by the church's top educators in such a comfortable, automatic way, it is what the church is teaching its Seminary Institute students every single day. So I would just say Patrick Mason, Terrell and Fiona Given, Spencer Fluman, all you guys, you don't represent Mormonism. You represent progressive hopes for Mormonism, but you don't represent Mormonism. That's.
Carah Burrell [00:16:23] My heart broke a little bit when he said that. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:16:25] Okay, so here's the second. So the second point, kind of. Here's the second point. Yes, Brad's apologizing. And yes, the Mormon Church is, is now sort of publicizing that apology. That, that apology, which on some level is an indirect admission of, of, of a problem. Right.
Carah Burrell [00:16:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:16:44] Because why would the church force him to apologize and then publicize it in Deseret news and the church news if, if the church didn't find this problematic? So here, here's the problem though. Brad is a Mormon Church leader, and the Mormon Church has a history of public deception. And here's what I mean by that. If you think about Joseph Smith lying about polygamy to the public. Right. Destroying the Navajo Expositor when it literally just told the truth about his polygamy. When you think about post manifesto Polygamy, where in 1890 the Mormon Church and all its leaders promised the world that they're going to stop polygamy. And then they literally, the same prophets and revelators keep performing polygamous marriages for another 15 years secretly, whether they do it in Canada or Mexico or whatever. Like, you know, the Mormon Church leaders have a credibility problem. And also they have this, this longstanding tradition of speaking in one set of language to its internal members, but then totally trying to polish it and speak differently to the public. And the best example I have of that is when Gordon B. Hinckley sort of like publicly says that we don't believe that men can become gods. Or the publicly saying that we don't believe that polygamy is doctrine. But then coming back in general conference to the members and sort of saying, you all know that I understand Mormon doctrine, right?
Carah Burrell [00:18:06] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:18:07] So. So, so this is one of the reasons it casts a bit of questioning question on either the church's statements or on Brad's apology. Because how much can we trust Mormon Church leaders that we know that what they're saying is accurate or credible or what they really think or feel? Or are they just trying to clean up a PR mess while not really fundamentally looking at or changing what they think or feel. Does that make sense?
Carah Burrell [00:18:38] Yeah, totally.
John Dehlin [00:18:39] So I don't like questioning Brad Wilcox's sincerity, but he is going to be questioned in part because he's a top leader in the Mormon Church and, and he represents the Mormon Church whose leaders have a severe credibility.
Carah Burrell [00:18:53] We're dissecting a representation of the problem at large.
John Dehlin [00:18:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so part three is, and this is really tricky, Brad himself maybe has a bit of a credibility problem. So one of the things that, Carol, we learned from the comments, the gazillion comments that we've received everywhere is that, you know, and I, and I got this. Do you get the sense that this is the first time Brad has ever said these things to an audience? I mean, that's a rhetorical question, right? But like, he tells these. He wasn't looking at notes, right? He wasn't like, reading an outline.
Carah Burrell [00:19:33] He's like, this is a really bomb talk and you're going to buckle in. I've only said it 100 times.
John Dehlin [00:19:39] Yeah, this is a talk he's given killer in seminary and institute for, for decades. And, you know, but more so it, you know, what we found from our commenters is many, many people in the past report that they've told Brad that this story about the blacks, this position about, you know, you know, the question isn't why didn't the blacks get the priesthood until 1978. The question is why didn't the whites get the priesthood until, you know, 1829? He's been told over and over and over again that he shouldn't say things like that. And yet he still says it. So that is one, that is one thing that sort of calls into question a little bit his, his credibility. But the second thing is kind of, and we're going to go back to it a little bit, is the context of his statement. If you read his statement, it wasn't, you know, and I've had to learn this by making mistakes and apologies myself. It wasn't Carah, just like I was racist. It was a stupid, ignorant thing to say. I shouldn't have said it full stop. Right? How is your interpretation of what he's saying in his apology?
Carah Burrell [00:20:46] He's saying that it didn't come across about God's timing, didn't come across as he intended. But that is not the issue that people are raising about why black people didn't get the priesthood. We're not asking about God's timing. You're throwing God under the bus by saying it was his timing. I was just. We're trying to make a point about the prejudice that is so, like, steeped within Mormonism. We're trying to ask the question, are these really prophets, seers and revelators, or are they just prejudice men that are, you know, men of their time? And he wants to dodge that question and throw God under the bus is what.
John Dehlin [00:21:18] That's a big part of the problem. And we'll get to that with Jim Bennett's response in just a second. But, yeah, and what I was also just saying is instead of just saying I said a dumb racist thing full stop, he's Saying, well, what I was trying to say, I was trying to talk about God at his own timing. And that's, like you said, that's a way of shifting responsibility from just. I said a dumb racist thing. Our church has taught dumb, racist things in the past. Brigham Young, of course he was a racist. Of course our church leaders have been racist. Of course the 1978 policy was racist. We all Mormons, we all need to do serious work on race stuff. Instead he's saying, well, the mistake was I didn't adequately and carefully enough explain the point I was trying to make, which is about God's timing. And. Is that the problem, Carah? That he didn't explain God's timing adequately?
Carah Burrell [00:22:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:22:07] I mean, is that.
Carah Burrell [00:22:08] Yeah. And that. That doesn't satisfy?
John Dehlin [00:22:10] Yeah, that's not. That's not the problem. So. So I guess the point there is that, number one, you know, Brad's apology seemed to be blame shifting. But number two, and this is kind of sensitive, is that we saw an exchange with our own Gerardo Sumano, who's in the chat.
Carah Burrell [00:22:29] Hey, Gerardo.
John Dehlin [00:22:30] Hey, Gerardo. That was actually really telling. So Gerardo, you know, understandably, is fired up about this issue. And when Brad responded, Gerardo made this point in response, and it's a credible point. He basically said, you know, Brad, I think you need to go back to Alpine, gather the youth again, correct your entire talk, and then resign. Follow the steps of repentance the church teaches, and make reparations. So, you know, that's not necessarily the official view of Mormon Stories podcast, but that's Gerardo's view and he's entitled to it. The problem was Brad's wife Debbie, responds and Carah, do you want me to read this or do you wanna read Debbie's response?
Carah Burrell [00:23:11] The entire thing. All right, I can do it.
John Dehlin [00:23:13] Okay.
Carah Burrell [00:23:13] So Debbie responded to Gerardo and said, seriously, you sound like somebody who would have been the first to hammer in the nails on Christ's cross. I suggest you listen again to the talk in the spirit of humility, and you might understand what was trying to be explained. He was not racist, nor anti feminism, nor demeaning of other Christian Christians, peoples, etc. I thought he explained several issues in a very clear, tolerant, and understanding manner and was trying to explain that there are reasons God reveals things in their time. The youth need some answers in this very contradictory, contentious world that makes sense to them, and I thought he did that in a brilliant manner. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has some truths that are not found Elsewhere. Does that make other churches wrong? Of course not. We love and respect all cultures, people's nations and religions. There are great people everywhere. It is you that is small minded and trying to stir up contention where no contention existed. People are making a huge mountain out of a molehill.
John Dehlin [00:24:13] Yeah. And I would normally not want to bring someone's wife into this conversation, but there's just a couple real problems with that. Number one is she's calling my friend small minded and accusing him of trying to stir up contention. And really she's accusing us of trying to stir up contention. But that's again, a redirection. And her previous text that you just read, Carah, really illustrates that. She basically said Brad said or did nothing racist, nothing misogynist and nothing demeaning of Christians. And of course she just completely leaves out ex Mormons and apostates because we don't even.
Carah Burrell [00:24:48] We are the. We are the. Etc.
John Dehlin [00:24:49] In that it doesn't matter. Yeah. Where the. Et cetera. But, but if. Carah, am I understanding this wrong? If Brad Wilcox's wife is saying, Brad did nothing wrong, then why did he apologize?
Carah Burrell [00:25:01] Are they like at the dinner table at night where he's like, I did something wrong. And she's like, no, you didn't, honey, you did nothing wrong. Do you think he's really like, no, honey, I did. Let me go apologize. I. It just seems like a little bit of a PR stunt. And I'm thinking that the Wilcox family is united on this one.
John Dehlin [00:25:16] Well, I mean, I'm sure you would say, as a woman that a woman can disagree with her husband. So it's very possible that Brad.
Carah Burrell [00:25:21] My husband's only agreed with me.
John Dehlin [00:25:22] It's. No, it's very possible that Brad disagrees with his wife. It's like, no, honey, I was racist and sexist and why didn't she support.
Carah Burrell [00:25:33] You're. The point is, why didn't she support what he said where he apologized and he misspoke, tried to understand him, but she went and completely like shifted the blame, shifted it and reversed it and said he didn't say anything racist. There wasn't anything that was anti feminist. Nothing wrong with it.
John Dehlin [00:25:48] Double thumbs up with the talk according to Brad's wife.
Carah Burrell [00:25:50] And you can think that, you can think that he. That she's probably heard that talk a lot of times. You can think that your husband, like, was a great exemplar of the spirit and was a great proclaimer of truth, but you have to, you have to empathize with people who are hurt by the things that were said and take a seat and get a little bit curious about. Okay, what am I missing here? Because I've heard this talk before, but I've never heard such a visceral reaction from people who are hurt by it. Maybe I should sit down and listen. Would have been a nice. A better response if I had to have some suggestions.
John Dehlin [00:26:16] Yeah. And don't call Gerardo small minded. And don't call us small minded. And honestly, don't accuse us of trying to stir up contention. Debbie Wilcox, like this would not have gone viral if it wasn't substantive. The church would not have forced your husband to apologize and then issued press releases on Deseret News. If we were just trying to. Lots of stuff we do. You could just accuse us of just trying to stir up contention.
Carah Burrell [00:26:43] We.
John Dehlin [00:26:44] What's going on is this was a substantive significant problem. So that's, that's the next thing. And then we go to point four, which, which is a point you've already mentioned. And it's a point illustrated by Jim Bennett. Not only is is is. It appears like Brad and Debbie Wilcox are deflecting responsibility, they're deflecting it on God and they're doing the same thing that the Race in the Priesthood issue essay from the Gospel Topics essay does. So do you want to read Jim Bennett's comment in response to Brad? Because I didn't expect Jim Bennett. Those who don't know we've done it, interviewed him on Mormon Stories. It's the son of late Senator Bob Bennett. He responded to Jeremy Runnels CBS letter. He's a faithful, active Mormon committed to the Church. He's attacking Brad Wilcox's response, which I didn't expect. But once I read his response, it was what I expected from Jim. Why don't you read it, Carah?
Carah Burrell [00:27:37] You reacted with a wow. So everyone set your face, your. Your phase and wow. Okay. Jim Bennett said this apology still demonstrates that you don't recognize why your statements were deeply problematic. They're out of harmony with the Church's race and the priesthood essay, which concedes both that Brigham Young was in fact a racist and that a great deal of prejudice has been present throughout the history of the Church. You were almost laughing as you dismissed both of those realities in your presentation that simply not acceptable. Even worse, making this an issue of God's timing, quote unquote, punts all the racism into deity instead of where it belongs, which is on the backs of human fallible leaders and members. Racism is not of God and never was, is or will Be.
John Dehlin [00:28:24] Yeah. And just huge.
Carah Burrell [00:28:25] Well done.
John Dehlin [00:28:26] And shout out to Jim Bennett, our friend, because, you know, you. You always. There's always a risk of, like, speaking truth to power when you're in the power structure.
Carah Burrell [00:28:34] Yeah. That's a great example of people who are, like you said, in that power structure, speaking truth to power. So who knows?
John Dehlin [00:28:41] Yeah. Yeah. Love you, Jim Bennett. And you just make a good point. Mormon Church, when you say things like, we don't understand God's timing, God's ways are higher than our ways, what you're saying is that God is a racist and a bigot. You're failing to take responsibility Mormon church and specifically Mormon church leaders for your stuff. And that's why you've got to just own the racism, own the misogyny, own the homophobia, own the deceptions of history, own the bigotry against Christians and ex Mormons and change your ways, have a change of heart, become more Christ. Like that's the answer, not blame shifting to God.
Carah Burrell [00:29:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:29:20] I mean, God can take it if God exists, but it's just not. You're not going to grow if you don't internalize your mistakes and then change.
Carah Burrell [00:29:28] Yeah. And the worst part is people like me who left the church because their shelf got too heavy. It was came down to the type of God that I'm worshiping is a God that is constantly just allowing this type of misogyny and racism to go on. And if the leaders could just be honest, I could follow the church as a nuanced member, but I can't follow a church that's never taking responsibility and always saying, this deity up here. Yeah, worship him. Like, look up to us. And we're all kind of.
John Dehlin [00:29:53] We don't do anything wrong. It's all God. We're just doing what God says. Like, honestly, I know. You know, sometimes people get frustrated that when ex Mormons leave the church, they stop believing in God and Jesus. Part of that is because Mormon church leaders teach their Mormon people that God is a jerk. And why would you want to keep believing in a jerk God? So once you lose your faith in Mormonism, oftentimes you lose your faith in God and Jesus because the Mormon Church polluted your perceptions of God and Jesus. That's what happened to you.
Carah Burrell [00:30:24] No, I didn't. I was worship. I was. I was worshiping hippie Jesus. I was worshiping Grace Jesus. And my Jesus went one route, the Mormon Church Jesus went another.
John Dehlin [00:30:32] That was the beginning of your end.
Carah Burrell [00:30:34] And I also want to shout out JC said, gerardo, you are the best. And we have your back. Heart.
John Dehlin [00:30:39] So Gerardo made yesterday's episode possible.
Carah Burrell [00:30:41] Gerardo, he was on fire.
John Dehlin [00:30:42] Yeah. We love you, Gerardo.
Carah Burrell [00:30:43] And fuego.
John Dehlin [00:30:44] And fuego. Poor Fuego. Okay, the rest is going to go pretty quick.
Carah Burrell [00:30:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:48] I'm going to make the point that. That I think, for me is the most salient and disturbing point of all for me, Carah. This is way more disturbing. The Brad Wilcox's talk. If I built this up enough.
Carah Burrell [00:31:00] I love this point.
John Dehlin [00:31:01] Okay, here's the biggest problem I see with Brad Wilcox, his talk. We know that this was a 3 stake fireside, which means that 9 stake presidency members were in the room or watching. That means that 36 stake high councilmen were either in the room or watching. It means that 9 Stake Relief Society presidency members were either in the room or watching. And it means that hundreds, if not thousands of members of the Alpine 3 Alpine Stakes were either in attendance or watching. And there wasn't anyone who had the idea to say, do not post this to the Internet. So this talk was deeply racist. This talk will be embarrassing to the church. This talk was anti Christian. This talk was shaming ex Mormons. This talk was misogynistic. It's going to hurt the church. Plus it's unchristlike. Plus it's going to hurt mixed faith marriages. Don't release this talk. Instead, all of those people are just like, oh, Young men's presidency member from church grace, graces with his presence, spoke truth to all of us all. And now it's our job to just go, okay, let's write that down and believe it and go and teach it to our children and never raise the concern that this was a deeply dangerous and offensive and problematic.
Carah Burrell [00:32:30] That is why it is about the system, because this is it could. It was. It could have not been Brad. It could have been another person from church headquarters giving the same exact talk. This is not about Brad. This is about people like, kowtowing to, like, authoritarianism and the leadership and the patriarchy and just being able to say, yes, sir, whatever you say, and not say, whoa, that made me uncomfortable. Like, I am not feeling what this guy just put down. You're going to put that on the Internet? The church that I believe in, the Jesus Christ that I worship. You're talking about that same guy. You think that's what he's for? I'm not for that. Not a single person said no. Whoever's turn that camera, do not really stop this meeting.
John Dehlin [00:33:05] Stop this meeting right now. Brother Wilcox, can you please sit down? We need to have a do over.
Carah Burrell [00:33:11] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:33:11] Like we'll reschedule. So yeah, that never happened. And like you said, one of the reasons why is we have such a patriarchal culture where when the leaders speak, the members listen and obey, pay, pray to. Yeah, but, but also it's also, you know, in addition to the patriarchal culture, you know what other problem is? Nobody was disturbed because he was teaching Mormonism. I mean, isn't that right? Nobody stood up and said Brad, this is deeply offensive because they're like, yeah, like I shared this talk with a very close family member of mine and you know what his response was? Carah?
Carah Burrell [00:33:46] Sounds like Mormonism.
John Dehlin [00:33:47] He's like, what was so disturbing about that talk? That's the church I was raised in. That's Mormonism. And so part of the reason why no one was disturbed and objected to the talk is because that's Mormonism.
Carah Burrell [00:33:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:33:58] And that's why this, that's why we're giving this post mortem. Right?
Carah Burrell [00:34:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:34:02] Because he's just representing Mormonism. But that is the problem.
Carah Burrell [00:34:05] And it's the problem. It's the whiplash, it's the, the public, it's the PR fiasco. It's the telling, the, telling the public one thing that Mormons believe and then having like the more quiet, insular what we actually believe problem. And then when it gets out, people are confused. What is the actual message of the LDS Church? What do they actually believe? What do they want to take responsibility for? What is deity's problem and what's the leadership's problem?
John Dehlin [00:34:25] Yeah, yeah. And the church wants to be able to kind of like have you know, interfaith dialogue. They don't want the evangelicals hating on us. They don't want the Catholics hating on us. We need them to defeat same sex marriage and other agenda items so we can't have them be our enemies. So in the public we want to speak like we love Christians, we love Catholics, we love evangelicals, we love Muslims, you know, we love all people of faith. And then privately we're still teaching that their churches are illegitimate, that their ordinances are illegitimate, that, that they're just playing church. And it's, it's two faced and it's not sincere. And, and so yeah, that's, that's the, that's the next thing.
Carah Burrell [00:35:06] Okay, point six, we're fired up.
John Dehlin [00:35:08] Yeah. Point six, these will go quick. Point six, the, one of the next problems that this, this, this talk reveals is the church has a repentance problem. The church taught us all repentance. This is her arter's point to Brad Wilcox. We all know what the steps of repentance are. It is, you know, recognize that you've made the sin right, acknowledge it, forsake it, make whatever, confess it, make whatever restitution you can, and don't do it again. Like we all know, is that the repentance you learned for the Mormon Church?
Accountability, Indoctrination, and Closing Thoughts
Carah Burrell [00:35:44] Okay, that's what I was expected to do.
John Dehlin [00:35:46] So the problem is, and this is, this is point seven, is that Dallin H. Oaks has gone on record and said, we neither seek nor offer apologies. So the Mormon Church leaders have it as an official policy that they will never follow the steps of repentance themselves that they teach to us as members. So, number one, it's hypocritical that they're forcing Brad to apologize when they themselves claim that they don't seek or give apologies. But then it's hypocritical that they're making him apologize when, number one, they want to apologize. But number two, Brad's literally teaching what they taught him, like, he's teaching what down H. Oaks and Russell M. Nelson and Elder Holland. He's teaching what they believe, what they taught him. And so it's hypocritical on a fundamental level, on so many ways, but primarily it's because the Mormon Church is the one that needs to repent, to admit their sins, to confess them, to forsake them, to make as much restitution as possible, and then to not do it again. So that's a problem. And then what would it mean for Brad Wilcox to. To do restitution? Like, here, I bet you can take this one. Like, if Brad were truly going to make right what he did in those three alpine stakes, what would restitution look like? Is this apology, Is that sufficient for all those kids, all those 12, 16 year olds who sat through and listened to that talk, all those adults that were there, what would restitution on Brad Wilcox's part look like?
Carah Burrell [00:37:23] That's a hard one. Because, I mean, what Gerardo just said is like, are you going to gather everyone together and, you know, undo everything that you said? Like the. Yes, the. Is that the first step? Like, gather everyone together and say, I made a mistake. But the first problem is there's no. There's no sincere acknowledgment from my standpoint, that what he said is out of line with Christ's teachings.
John Dehlin [00:37:43] That.
Carah Burrell [00:37:43] And not like, okay, you're saying the problem.
John Dehlin [00:37:45] I'm just saying, what should they do?
Carah Burrell [00:37:47] What should they do?
John Dehlin [00:37:48] What Should Brad Wilcox do to follow the Mormon Church's steps of. Of repentance, which includes restitution. What would restitution look like? What would Brad. What would Brad need to do to make that right?
Carah Burrell [00:38:01] All right, step one. A new fireside.
John Dehlin [00:38:03] New fireside.
Carah Burrell [00:38:04] Step two.
John Dehlin [00:38:05] And do what? Say what in the fireside Say?
Carah Burrell [00:38:08] Forsake the sin and say I sinned. I acknowledge it. Say that what I said was wrong. It hurt people. Here's the places where I went wrong and here's what actually needs to be said. Here's what's more conducive with Christ's teachings and where I got off base. So forsake it.
John Dehlin [00:38:23] Yeah. Condemn the racism and own it. Condemn the misogyny. Condemn the anti Christian rhetoric and condemn the anti Mormon apostate or ex Mormon rhetoric and. And say I won't do it again. And make sure all those youth and adults know that that's not what is good. That's not what is Christlike. And unless he does that, how can he. How else could he make restitution? I don't know.
Carah Burrell [00:38:48] Yeah. Especially with so many youth that are young and impressionable. I like what William just said, that he needs to acknowledge what he did was wrong. And I'm not feeling that so far, so that would be a big step.
John Dehlin [00:39:01] That's. Your point is. We don't even realize we haven't heard him say. You know, and that's. That was my. That was my next point is that. What about all the things Brad Wilcox didn't apologize for? He didn't apologize for all the anti Christian teachings, to all the insulting teachings against Christians. He didn't apologize to the way he insulted ex Mormons by telling them that if they leave the church, they have nothing of value in their lives. He didn't apologize for the things he. The ways he mocked women. Yeah, you know, he. All he said is, hey, I was trying to explain this thing about God's timing and I got that explanation wrong.
Carah Burrell [00:39:37] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:39:38] So. So Brad's got so much more to apologize for, but even that misses the point. What's wrong?
Carah Burrell [00:39:44] I'm just getting a headache.
John Dehlin [00:39:46] Yeah. Yeah. Well, one more. You know, we're almost done. So what that misses is it's not really Brad's job to apologize. It's the Mormon churches job to apologize for two centuries of racism, including the Book of Mormon racism. Two centuries of systemic misogyny. You know, you know, women as second class citizens, decades of anti LGBT homophobic rhetoric, misleading its members about its history, shaming, apostates, and people who leave the church and not showing empathy and love for them. And, and of course all the anti Christian and. And all other churches are inferior or just playing church or their ordinances are irrelevant kind of rhetoric. It's the Mormon Church that needs to apologize.
Carah Burrell [00:40:39] Yeah. At bare minimum, I like what Danny said. He needs to make his wife apologize to her. I know.
John Dehlin [00:40:44] No, that's true.
Carah Burrell [00:40:45] That's true too.
John Dehlin [00:40:46] Yeah.
Carah Burrell [00:40:46] And I also want to add, Carol's got a good one too. Give the mic to the populations that he insulted. Like that's one thing. If, maybe if he doesn't sit down with all the youth and youth and gather hundreds of kids back together. Why don't you tell us that you.
John Dehlin [00:40:58] That's a great idea. Who said that?
Carah Burrell [00:41:00] Carol.
John Dehlin [00:41:00] Carol. Nice job.
Carah Burrell [00:41:01] Boom. Carol.
John Dehlin [00:41:02] Yeah. Brad could bring a person of color, he could bring a Christian, he could bring an ex Mormon and he could bring a woman and say, I have been humbled.
Carah Burrell [00:41:11] I am following the example of Jesus Christ and I'm in humility, trying to learn from you. People said that my comments were offense, offensive. My apology wasn't sufficient. Let's sit down and just wrap together about how we can make this a happy, healthier church. And I need to sit and listen to people on the margin and model that.
John Dehlin [00:41:29] So, so he calls all three stakes together. They're sitting there in the audience. I am sorry for what I did to. To commit restitution. To re. To. To do restitution. We're going to sit and listen to these four people that represent these four groups that I insulted and we're going to learn from them. That is beautiful. Those are the most powerful things I've ever heard. Brad Wilcox, Mormon Church. Brad's wife, Please take Carol's advice. Carol.
Carah Burrell [00:41:55] That's what it said.
John Dehlin [00:41:57] Okay, but, but, but the bigger point is the Mormon Church needs to follow its own steps of repentance. And it's not Brad's problem. This is on Down H. Oaks. This is on Russell M. Nelson. This is on Henry Iring, the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. You guys, you guys are the problem, not Brad Wilcox.
Carah Burrell [00:42:18] No, this is, this is like people who own a house and are supposed to be maintaining the house and somebody who just like was the son who grew up in it and he came back to visit for Christmas and he was tending it while his parents were in Hawaii and the pipes burst and flooded the entire neighborhood. And you're getting mad at the son, but it's the parents who just, they were not upkeeping on their Pipes. They needed to do a little bit more maintenance. So this is a maintenance problem, from where I put it. This is a systemic maintenance problem for the people who own the house. Brad's just been living in it.
John Dehlin [00:42:47] Yeah, don't shoot the messenger.
Carah Burrell [00:42:48] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:42:49] Clean up your own house. Mormon Church and that's part of what we do at the Open Stories Foundation. We want. We're not trying to take the church down. We're not trying to take Brad and his wife down. We're not trying to shame people. We literally just want the church to stop hurting people. And anyway, that takes us to the final point. This is point 10 is that the Mormon Church has a problem with undue influence. The way that it indoctrinates babies, children and youth and even adults through the BITE model, just to be candid. Controlling behavior in unhealthy ways. Controlling information so that people are afraid to learn the truth and to see the problems, which allows them to control people's thoughts. The thought stopping stuff you talked about yesterday and then manipulating through emotion. And that's fy, that's fsy, that's Seminary, that's Institute. That's what Brad Wilcox represents more than anything else. Brad. Brad Wilcox represents the BITE model where they're enforcing harsh behavior on youth, controlling the information that the youth receive so that they can control their thoughts, and then using awful emotional, deceptive and manipulative emotional rhetoric to manipulate the youth and the adults. So the Mormon Church has to fix that problem and to stop indoctrinating its youth and its adults in unhealthy ways. And that's the church education system. And you could, some would argue the church education system is what has destroyed Mormonism over the past, you know, correlation. Harold B. Lee Church Education System Boyd K. Packer Bruce R. McConkey David Bednar Church Education system has destroyed Mormonism So Those are my 10 points.
Carah Burrell [00:44:31] Well done. Boom.
John Dehlin [00:44:33] Was that too long? It probably was still too long. We probably have a ways to go, but.
Carah Burrell [00:44:36] Yep. I'm loving everyone's comments that came in. And I just wanted to add, Captain K said the church doesn't apologize because they think they're beyond that. Maybe second anointing. Hint, hint. What do you think about that comment, John?
John Dehlin [00:44:47] No, I mean, not only that, of course, the second anointing makes people think, well, what do I have to repent for? I'm already in the Slusher Kingdom. But they believe they're special witnesses of Christ. They believe that they speak to God and Jesus, apparently. So, like, if they, if they think that their emotions and their thoughts are coming from God, then they feel justified to do anything. So this is the problem is. And this is the problem, Carah. They're sincerely believers. Those prophets, sees and revelators at the top of the church. They believe that their, their stuff smells good. They believe that they're, you know, that they're being led by God and that their thoughts and emotions represent God's will. And that's why it's. The only way we get out of this is by speaking truth to power by using the Internet, by doing programs like this, by using Tick Tock and Instagram and YouTube and Reddit and Facebook to shine a huge fat truth spotlight on the Mormon Church and what it's doing behind the scenes because they're not going to self correct power. You know, Martin Luther King taught us power never relinquishes itself voluntarily. It must be forced.
Carah Burrell [00:45:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:45:54] And so we're helping force the church to engage in restitution and repentance.
Carah Burrell [00:45:59] Yeah. It's huge. You guys should thank us. We'll send you an invoice. Okay. And then John mentioned this earlier in the program about how this is not the first time that Brad has given this talk. It's the first time that it probably was recorded and publicly put out on YouTube and we were able to see it and make a whole program about it. And, you know, 30,000 people have seen it so far and like Thousands more on TikTok. And so people have been sending me the link to his talk in 2020 if you want to check out. And it's probably word for word is what people are saying.
John Dehlin [00:46:27] So we'll keep that in the show notes.
Carah Burrell [00:46:28] We'll put that in the show notes. And Gerardo. Hey, Gerardo. He just said that the recording of the 2020 making the exact same racist comment. So probably the same same exact thing that he's already said. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:38] It's not just Brad's been teaching this for decades.
Carah Burrell [00:46:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:41] This is Mormon church doctrine for 200 years. Everything he said in that talk is Mormonism.
Carah Burrell [00:46:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:46] It's the Mormonism I was raised in. Is it the Mormonism you were raised in?
Carah Burrell [00:46:48] Yeah. And that's just to make the point that like, this wasn't him just thinking of a bad analogy off the top of his head. This is a deeply ingrained systemic problem. He has never seen a problem with this kind of analogy or whatever of the way that he was talking about, like, well, what's.
John Dehlin [00:47:01] What about the whites? And we don't even know if he sees a Problem now. Yeah. I have to add one last thing, Carah. This would never have happened if a couple close friends hadn't sent me the link. So I just want to say if any of you are still on the rolls of the church, if you're still getting announcements from the church, if you're still attending church, please send us every single link. Or better yet, get recording software. We'll include in the show notes. Carrie, remember this. Gerardo will share with us the recording software that we use. I use something called. Oh, snap it Snagit. Okay, there's software called Snagit and. And we'll include some other recording software because whether you send it to us as links or whether you record it yourself, the only way change happens in the Mormon Church is with transparency. Silence is the killer. Silence is the enabler. And a huge thanks to my two of my dear friends in the Alpine area who independently sent me this recording so that we could make it public. Please record every bishop's interview, every stake president interview, every potentially where it's legal to do significant talk, all where it's legal to do so. And we'll just keep, just keep literally just telling the truth and shining a spotlight, shining a spotlight on the beauties and the dark sides of Mormonism.
Carah Burrell [00:48:23] Yep. And may I just add and echo that back of what John just said. We're going to be doing this Mormon Scoops, hopefully on a weekly nighttime basis, kind of like we're doing right now and just trying to cover current and new. Current. Current events. Events, that's the word I'm looking for. Current event and news. And so we can't do that without people telling us what's current, what's poppin, what's going on in your neighborhood, what's been affecting you, what articles have you read lately? So yeah, keep. Send us tips. And we're gonna just try to do as many episodes like this and like the one we did yesterday and just sharing this, this type of content and getting it out there to shine that spotlight. We can't do it without you guys.
John Dehlin [00:49:02] Ideally, we want to pick on a solid, specific regular recurring night. We wanted to do Thursday nights. That isn't going to work this week or next. So we're doing some Tuesday stuff. But we also really respect Mormonism Live with Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon. And that's every Wednesday night. So expect Mormon Scoops to be either Tuesday nights or Thursday nights until we can settle into a rhythm.
Carah Burrell [00:49:24] Yeah. Can I ask you one last question?
John Dehlin [00:49:25] Yeah.
Carah Burrell [00:49:27] What do you think about this comment Lathe said, I keep hearing people say Brad isn't a bad guy. But here's the thing. Brad knows what he's doing. He knows he's manipulating youth. He's good at it. That's why the church has him doing it. That's not a great guy, in my opinion.
John Dehlin [00:49:40] So I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say I don't know Brad's heart. And I think, you know, I know that when I was teaching for the church in seminary, I thought I was sincerely helping the youth and helping them do well. So who knows what type of human Brad is or any of the first presidency of the Quorum of the twelve or any of the top church leaders. I guess I just want to live in a world where we assume that even if people. Even if we vehemently disagree with people, that everybody operates feeling like they're doing the right thing.
Carah Burrell [00:50:11] Yeah, I totally. Yeah, I agree with that.
John Dehlin [00:50:13] But. But I could be wrong. So I'm not saying Lathe is wrong. I'm just saying I don't want to act like everybody's being intentionally harmful and deceptive. I don't think that gets us anywhere.
Carah Burrell [00:50:24] Yeah, I think people who start off with the presupposition that the church is true and it's good and the leaders are true and good, they want to do whatever it takes to get the youth in a position to revere the leadership and gain a testimony, even if it comes down to saying some really egregious things that they think will maybe manipulate them into the testimony. But if they think it's a good thing and they think it's good fruit that they're trying to share, I feel like Mormons, people that I know, whether they're in leadership or not, they're just trying to do best with what they think is the best fruit to offer other people without with sometimes, like, a very narrow worldview where they have blinders on not seeing the ramifications, not seeing the carnage outside of this tiny little thing. So, again, it's a system where that. That type of system enables people like Brad to just say, nope, the leadership says, I'm doing good. Until the leadership pulls it back and says, no, dude, you gotta not. You gotta cut out this kind of talk, this kind of rhetoric. And that's what Mormon stories is so important to do. So if you're gonna manipulate the youth, if you're gonna tell them you're gonna try to give them a testimony, give them something that's a little bit less racist, less sexist, say say the best attributes of Christ that you're trying to give them a testimony and gain a testimony of not the most fear based things that you could possibly say.
John Dehlin [00:51:30] Absolutely. So many of you have donated to this episode. We just want to thank everyone for the super chat.
Carah Burrell [00:51:36] Thank you guys. This is incredible.
John Dehlin [00:51:38] That's. This is.
Carah Burrell [00:51:39] I'm sorry, I didn't even get it.
John Dehlin [00:51:40] Like, isn't Carah wonderful? So many people love Carah. The only reason we could do this is because we pay her and we try to pay her generously and we pay Gerardo and we pay Jennifer and Jen and of course I have compensation that Mormon Stories already covers, so don't worry about me. But we need your support. We are thankful for your support. Thanks for your super chats.
Carah Burrell [00:52:00] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:52:01] You can always donate@mormonstories.org and whatever, but thanks for your support and give us your feedback. And if you like this idea of a weekly Mormon current events channel, let us know. And if you have feedback, I don't know, maybe Monday nights.
Carah Burrell [00:52:18] You got your pickleball.
John Dehlin [00:52:19] We'll see. We'll see. Anyway, you guys are awesome. Carah, thanks for making this happen. This wouldn't happen without you.
Carah Burrell [00:52:24] This wouldn't happen without John.
John Dehlin [00:52:25] You're a great partner. We wanted to get to Margi, my wife.
Carah Burrell [00:52:28] Thanks to Aaron and my kids at home. We've been working all day.
John Dehlin [00:52:31] We need to run home, be with our spouses. Yeah.
Carah Burrell [00:52:34] Anyway, yeah, thanks everyone for tuning in. We got almost up to 900 people, so.
John Dehlin [00:52:38] What a great kickoff episode.
Carah Burrell [00:52:39] See you next time on Mormon Scoop.
John Dehlin [00:52:40] Nice job, Carah. Love you guys. See you soon.
Carah Burrell [00:52:43] Bye.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Join us live Tuesday night for a special new regular weeknight segment with John and Carah called ✨Mormon Scoops✨ at 8pm mst! We just heard that Brad Wilcox apologized for the racist statements that he made in his talk to the Alpine youth of the church. We congratulate Brad. In the hours since the talk, the church has removed it from Youtube and Brad apologized on his Facebook page. Carah and John want to dive into the top 10 things that we think are worse than Brad’s actual talk that still need to be addressed! Join us with your questions, comments, and additional information!
Our Understanding Mormonism playlist of Brad Wilcox’s full talk
Our Mormon Stories episode covering Brad Wilcox’s talk
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One Response
I think the worst thing Brad Wilcox’s wife said to your friend Dr. Dehlin ( I can’t spell his name and I apologize) is that he would be one of the first to drive the nail in Christ’s hand. That is awful.