Introduction and Why Rachel Remains Anonymous

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is November 1, 2021, and today you are in for a really important and heartfelt and vulnerable Mormon Stories podcast interview. And it's a topic that I've been wanting to cover for years and years and years and have not been able to figure out exactly how to do it and to find a right person to help try and tell this story. But today I think I found that today we are interviewing Rachel. Hi, Rachel. Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Rachel [00:00:37] Hi, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] And you'll notice right off that Rachel's video is blurry. Let me tell you why. Today the topic that we'll be covering is the way that I would describe it, is how sexual abuse happens within the Mormon Church. But more importantly, what happens when sexual abuse occurs in the Mormon Church by a high or a higher level leader and then how it gets covered up, both in terms of whether or not law enforcement is involved, whether or not it's known broadly within the church, and, you know, how that affects sexual abuse victims. So those are some of the major themes we're going to be covering today. Because over and over and over again over the past 10 or 15 years, whether it's with Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children's Movement or just people who reach out to me, I am stunned by the literally thousands and thousands of people who've reached out to me and said, I was sexually abused in the Mormon Church as a child or a teen. My dad was a, was a bishop or a stake president or a high level leader or even a mission president. And it was covered up and it's, it's harmed me ever since and it's just always boggled my mind. How is this even possible? And so we are joined by, by Kara Burrell. Kara, it is so wonderful to have you with us. Thanks for having me in studio to talk about this.

Guest [00:01:57] Hmm.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] Yeah, it's a, it's a sensitive subject.

Guest [00:02:00] Yeah, sensitive one close to my heart. I suffered some abuse myself as a child and I am always very impressed by people who are able to tell their story with such vulnerability. So, Rachel, thanks for doing this.

Rachel [00:02:14] Yep, thank you. I'm. I feel really grateful to be here and to be able to share my story and really hope it makes an impact and help someone.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] And Cara, I know that these interviews affect you and especially because this is close to your heart, I just want to acknowledge that this is something very emotional and heart wrenching for you. So thanks for being willing to do this as well.

Guest [00:02:37] Yeah, yeah. And John knows that I'm like, sometimes I'm a comedian and I'm kind of like, thrown in the deep end of things that have to do with more like clinical psychology work that are a little bit out of my league. But this is. This is going to be really good. And I'm excited to get into this kind of really heartfelt discussion about what happened. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] So, Rachel, I guess let's just. At the top, obviously we're not using your real name and we're blurring your camera. And I think that speaks to kind of two things. The question of why you are doing this and. And then why you're not doing this. I think. I think let's just hit those things right at the top, if that's okay.

Rachel [00:03:15] Yeah. So I think I want to start with why I'm doing this. I've been pretty open with my story with close friends and shared my truth with a number of people, but it's always been very. In a very safe relationship. But I am doing this more publicly because I think there's a lot of power in my story and a lot of power, positive power. Good things have come out of this. Hard things have come out of this. A lot of lessons. But also I want the church to be a better place, a safer place for children. It's not just girls for boys and girls. And that's really why I'm doing this, is because I want to make a difference. Why I'm doing this using a different name and not showing my identity is in stories like this, there are a number of victims. I'm not the only one. Family members are also impacted. And so while I feel like I am seizing the power to tell my story, I also want to be respectful to. To others. In particular my mom. This is also part of her story. And I want to be respectful to her and not share. Share the identity and throw everybody into this just based on my decision. So that's why I'm incognito.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And there are things I think you're going to be able to say without maybe totally giving away your identity.

Rachel [00:05:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] And I think. I think it's important that we state this up front just so people know what we're talking about. Your dad was a mission president for the Mormon Church, correct?

Rachel [00:05:10] Yes, he was.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] And he. That. That means he might have been a bishop or stake president as well or something to that he had also been

Rachel [00:05:18] a bishop prior to being a mission president and, you know, held A number of, of high level positions within the church.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] And then he also was employed by the church. Is there anything you want to say about that?

Rachel [00:05:32] Yeah, he, he was a professor at byu and so his employment was through the church.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Okay. And. And I think it's important to mention that the abuse happened after he, if not before, after he returned home from his three year service as a mission president. So the abuse happened after completing his term as a mission president.

Rachel [00:05:56] Yes, that's accurate.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] And. And then during the time he continued as a BYU professor.

Rachel [00:06:02] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] Okay, yep. And. And in many ways this was kind of silenced and covered up and, and we'll talk about all of that. But, but he also, for, you know, one of the things I'm always really, really afraid of is anyone ever being falsely accused. And it's hard to really vet that because you want to believe every victim.

Rachel [00:06:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] And if there's not some way to verify or substantiate a claim, then you risk falsely accusing people. And frankly, we've had, you know, very serious things happen when a Mormon Stories interview sometimes gets released if somebody's named. And so, but, but in your case, your dad did receive church discipline eventually. Yes, we'll say moderate church discipline.

Rachel [00:06:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] And so that, that in some way confirms that. That what you're telling us was confirmed also by the church and maybe even acknowledged by your parents in some way is that.

Rachel [00:06:58] It was definitely acknowledged by my parents. And it's also, without jumping too far ahead, my family is aware of it. And so, yeah, it's. I think if we needed to vet it, we definitely could. I know that, that you guys have me here because you believe me and believe my story, but that's also another good reason not to share names and all of that, but it is more to protect those people who don't have a say in whether or not this goes public. And I want to add, there's been a lot of healing in our family. And that's also something that, a reason why I'm kind of doing this is this was a long time ago. There are still effects that hit me every day. Abuse is not something I think you ever really get over. I'm a survivor. And so even though it's happened a while ago, I think part of, part of the powerful parts of this story have happened recently and have happened directly with the church outside of my family.

Guest [00:08:18] So.

Rachel [00:08:18] And that's, that's a huge part of why I'm here today.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Yeah. So we want to give hope to victims.

Rachel [00:08:27] Yes. There's a lot of Hope in my story, and I think a lot of power in my story, there's definitely people who didn't do the right thing, and there's a lot of people who did really amazing things. So that allowed me to heal and facilitated my healing. So I definitely want to hit those points, too.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] I love it. Okay, well, where. Where does your Mormon story. Oh, and care. You wanted to mention something about informed consent.

Growing Up in a Utah County Mormon Family

Guest [00:09:02] Oh, yeah. John always likes to. Whether we're talking about truth claims or just when we're interviewing people about that, we're going to be doing some heavy trigger warnings at the beginning, obviously going to get into some heavy topics. And that also we've discussed with Rachel beforehand the things that were on the table, off the table, and she kind of mentioned being an open book and wanting to tell as much of the story as possible and that she's comfortable being asked questions about this. So I just wanted to put that out there. John and I, we want to make sure that Mormon stories is a place where remodel. What informed consent kind of looks like. So.

Rachel [00:09:35] Yep, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Perfect. Okay, Rachel, so where does your Mormon story begin?

Rachel [00:09:44] I would say my Mormon story begins early on. I was born and raised in Utah County, a large Mormon family, probably a very traditional Mormon family. Went to church every week, Scripture studies in the morning. Very staunch. I mean, we were a staunch Mormon family. I was very much believing and very sheltered living in Utah County. So didn't, you know, all of my friends were Mormon. Everything I knew was Mormon. And so, you know, that's. I had a very amazing childhood, very idyllic childhood, and born into a large family. A lot of love in the family, a lot of great times in the family. Um, but a lot of it was centered on the church. Um, but yeah, really had an amazing childhood.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] How would you kind of describe the reputation of your parents in your ward and in your community? Um, and just how your home felt in terms of the interactions between your parents and the kids and even your siblings?

Rachel [00:10:58] Yeah, I think our reputation was definitely, you know, my dad had a number of high callings. Not all of them were in the ward, so he was gone a lot. So we went to church, the big family with my mom, quite a bit. And. But I think, you know, people. I still think to this day people would probably look at our family and our. Our home and think that it was, you know, we were like the ideal picture perfect Mormon family. And, you know, older siblings all got married in the temple. It was, you know, all of that, the dynamics in the home. It was Definitely a patriarchal home. My mom is an amazing, beautiful mother, full of love, and my dad was more the disciplinarian. You know, it wasn't a bad home. I mean, when I say that he wasn't, he didn't come home and was mean all the time, but he, he would go to work, my, you know, mom took care of the home. And there was actually a lot of, still are a lot of really good things about my dad, but it was very, very patriarchal. He set the rules, he set the tone. He was the final say. My mom had say in the home, but not like if there was ever a disagreement, it was bottom line. What my dad said went so very, you know, I think. And that was the home that I saw most of my friends have. So I wouldn't say it was very different than a lot of what my friends had. My mom was always the very supportive wife, supported him and all of his callings, just all of that. But dynamics between the siblings were typical. We fought, we loved, you know, we borrowed clothes and got in fights over that and. But overall we as siblings, we're all very close and still are to this day.

Mormon Practices and Family Life at Home

John Dehlin [00:13:06] How did Mormonism manifest itself like Mormon practices? How did they manifest themselves in your day to day family life? In what ways was your family kind of living Mormonism? Yeah, in the home.

Rachel [00:13:21] So very much scripture study most mornings, family prayer every night, prayer over all the meals. Sunday was, you know, we went to church. We weren't, my, my family wasn't so strict. Like we didn't have to stay in our church clothes all day on Sunday, but it really was, it was just interwoven. Everything from, like I said, the scripture study, prayers over every meal, constant conversations around that. You know, it was, my dad's work was tied to the church. I really didn't know any aspect of life outside of it somehow connecting to the church. Everything connected to the church.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Your world was a Mormon world?

Rachel [00:14:08] It was a Mormon world, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] Did you get the sense that your parents, like were sincere orthodox believers in the church?

Rachel [00:14:19] Yes. One of the, the things I would, I still to this day say about my mom is she's not one to tell you how she feels, but you can see it in every aspect of her life. She, she lives, absolutely lives the best of what she believes and she's, she's an amazing woman. But yeah, she, she firmly believes and she is a woman of great faith, so she doesn't question a lot and just, yeah, everything was very much tied to the church. Any calling they Gave her. She always accepted it. It was never a question of whether you would or wouldn't visiting teaching. I remember many times going with her, having visiting teachers and home teachers over with us. We always participated. My dad, really, truly, his identity is the church. Everything that he sees as his identity is associated with the church, even more so than, I think, the family. It's. It was his callings. It was, you know, projects that he worked on, just everything.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Yeah.

Rachel [00:15:38] Yeah. And I. And I do believe he believes in the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] So as. As someone who's a father of, you know, myself and a male, I've never. There are a lot of things. There are a lot of feelings I've never been able to relate to or connect with. So, for example, I've never been attracted to another man ever. So when. When I talk about all this LGBTQ stuff, that's something that emotionally, I've never been able to connect to. Another thing I've never been able to connect to is having any sort of sexual attraction for one of my children. And again, that's probably not unique, but. But I just. My brain just doesn't understand it. So when I. Because I've never experienced that. So when I. Your dad being so committed to the church, you know, employed by the church, super orthodox in every way, it's hard for my brain to even imagine him allowing himself or to imagine the. The variables that would combine to where that would even be something that would cross his mind.

Rachel [00:16:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] And it could be that it's just as simple as everyone's brain chemically is wired differently, or that your dad had some sort of traumat past that influenced and shaped his behavior. Because I also have never experienced abuse myself that I. That I remember, I'm aware of. So I guess that's a long way of saying, prior to. Let's just say your teen years, was there hypocrisy in the home? Were there signs of your dad being tormented or, like, living a double life? Is there anything, you know, about your dad's upbringing or childhood that could help us understand just even what factors might contribute to this happening?

Rachel [00:17:31] There weren't. I mean, I think when I think of being hypocritical, you know, kind of the typical of what you see where he, you know, coming home, there was never any, like, hypocritical as far as, like, drinking or, like, coffee. Like, none of that was ever in the home. And we lived very much that Mormon lifestyle. But I think, you know, I think the biggest piece of hypocrisy that I would see, my dad is just how he would say, oh, and it's so simple, but it's like these little. Our home, you know, like, oh, my family's perfect, kind of. And we weren't perfect, but we didn't have anything like this. There was nothing like this. And so.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] What do you mean, like this?

Rachel [00:18:17] Like the abuse? Yeah, yeah, like the abuse. That.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] There were no signs of abuse.

Rachel [00:18:21] No, there was no signs of abuse. There was no, you know, there. There really wasn't anything that ever triggered me to think that this could happen. I never thought that this would be my story ever, growing up.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Because you do hear about these kind of quote, perfect Mormon families where it's all about appearance, but, like, behind the scenes, people are screaming at each other. It's super chaotic. It's, you know, it's. It's almost. Almost like televangelists where it's all about the makeup and the hair and the clothes and what people see. But then it's a. I guess I'll swear, I'll say a shit show, you know, behind the scenes. And you're saying that's not the way your family was behind the scenes?

Rachel [00:19:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] By all appearances, everyone was living the way they should.

Rachel [00:19:11] Yeah. You know, siblings went on missions. I don't remember a lot of yelling in the home. Very little, if I'm trying to even think of specific times, that maybe there was. I mean, there was definitely, you know, frustration and, you know, you can't have a big family and not have siblings yelling and. But it was all very stereotypical arguing. But we also, we had great memories, you know, like, I really. Family vacations, family time, family just playing with my. My siblings. And it really. I mean, I. It's. It really was a very amazing childhood. And so there definitely wasn't any signs. And we weren't. I kind of thought we were that perfect Mormon family, too, that went to church every Sunday, you know, sat there. I was always a stubborn child. And so my dad and I would argue a lot because I ask a lot of questions and I asked a lot of why. And we had a lot of rules in the house, but nothing. Nothing weird or nothing like you know, that would ever signal this.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Yeah.

Rachel [00:20:31] At all.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] What about your parents getting along? You know, were they. Did they hold hands? Did they hug? Did they kiss? Did they seem affectionate with each other?

Rachel [00:20:40] Yeah, I mean, I. They definitely held hands, hugged all the time, and truly loved each other. Truly still do love each other. And a very loving. I mean, it was. My mom is. Was very supported the patriarchal structure. Right. So there wasn't a lot of arguing, because if there was, my dad made a decision and she supported that. And. And so there wasn't fighting in the home, you know, and, you know, we had, like, I remember one time my brother flipped somebody off, and my mom heard about it when he was a teen, and she was all upset. Oh, you know, how could you do that? Like, those were the things in our family that caused stress and drama.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Yeah. Normal kid stuff.

Rachel [00:21:35] Yeah, Normal kid stuff.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Yeah. Okay, so what. What do you want to tell us? Anything else about your home life prior to your family being called on a mission? Because it sounds like the abuse started after the mission service was over.

Rachel [00:21:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Any other signs or important events in your family's life or in your dad's life or in your mom's life that you or the mission life, anything you want to talk about that you think is important for the story?

Rachel [00:22:06] Yeah, no, I. I can't think of anything else. I don't know. You know, I'm close to cousins and aunts and uncles on both sides of the family, and there's not anything that I'm aware of that happened in my. My dad's childhood or youth growing up that would have caused this either. And so, yeah, growing up, she raised orthodox. Yes. Both my parents were raised very orthodox. Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Okay. Kind of pioneer ancestry, all that. Okay.

Rachel [00:22:35] Yep. And no, I really, like, I had an amazing childhood.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] Okay.

Rachel [00:22:42] I think back on it, and, you know, we were outside playing all the time, and we had, you know, the neighbors would come over and all the kids would play. I mean, it really was.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Yeah. Beaver Cleaver. To Beaver. Mormonism.

Rachel [00:22:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] And only 12 people in my audience will know that reference to beaver. If you're 52 or older, you probably know what I'm talking about. Okay. So anything you want to say about what it's like to. To be. To go the whole family as. As kind of a mission president family?

Father's Mission Presidency and Family Dynamics

Rachel [00:23:12] Yeah. That was also an amazing experience. It was amazing to get out of

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Utah and it's a prestigious position in the church especially.

Rachel [00:23:20] It is.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] I mean, your dad must have been called relatively young, right?

Rachel [00:23:25] Yeah, relatively young. I remember to have young kids answering the phone and somebody saying is. Is, you know, so and so there. And. And I said, yeah, can I tell him who's calling? This is back when you had phones on the wall, right. One phone for the family. Not everybody had their own. And, you know, they said it was. Gave the name of the prophet and said, yeah, this is the prophet's office calling and I was like, oh, okay, hold on. You know, and we knew that he was being considered for it. My parents had shared that, that we knew that he was being considered. So I wasn't completely off guard. But yeah, I mean, it's.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] So the office of the first presidency calls when your, when your dad gets called as mission president.

Rachel [00:24:07] They did at that time? Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did at that time.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] And socially, that's a big deal. Like, that's like, you know, if bishop and stake president is kind of like really well respected within Mormonism, getting called to be a mission president is like the step between bishop, stake president and becoming a general authority, which then puts them in the top 150 leaders of the church. Like, it's on the track to becoming a general authority. Is that fair to say?

Rachel [00:24:34] Yeah, it is fair to say. And you know, going on, on the mission with my family was amazing. You know, we went from a very humble home in Utah county to a very large, you know, the church provides the home. And it was like, felt like a mansion because, I mean, it was a mansion and you've got high level people coming in and having dinner with your family. Like other gentlemen apostles coming in and visiting your home. Visiting the home, touring the mission with, with my parents and then coming over for dinner, having other people over for dinner. And so, yeah, I mean, it was definitely prestigious. And even on the mission, like, it was, it was an amazing experience. I'm so grateful for that experience because it did get me out of Utah. It got me out of the bubble.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] Was it foreign language speaking or no English speaking?

Rachel [00:25:31] English speaking. And so, you know, it just got me exposed to other religions, other people. And I, I learned for the first time, right, that other religions aren't bad, they're just different. I had friends of all different kinds of religions, got exposed to them, different, you know, races, everything. It was, it was really, truly an amazing experience. It also, you know, before we went, I thought about when someone was a returned missionary and what that vision was in my head and quickly learned that that isn't always, doesn't always mean what a lot of people think it means that there's a lot of drama that goes on in missions. And so, you know, exposed to that, getting calls at all times of the day and night and missionaries showing up at all times of day and night and never really knew fully what was going on. But it was a really, I loved that time. I loved being out there.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] Did you get a sense for whether the mission was like super stressful on your dad or your parents relationship or did that even.

Rachel [00:26:46] I think it was

John Dehlin [00:26:49] basically in charge of like 150 boys, you know, young men and young women.

Rachel [00:26:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Some of them, you know, get in trouble. Some of them even get sent home. There might even be excommunications. Plus you, there's all this pressure from church leaders to baptize, baptize, baptize and grow. Plus you know that if you do well, you might make the next level, which is area authority or general authority. So I imagine it can be a real pressure cooker.

Rachel [00:27:15] I think it can be. I think my dad thrived in it. I think he. I'm sure it was stressful. I was fairly young, so I don't know that I always saw that stress. My mom, as always in true form. I mean really, truly, there's nothing bad I could ever say about my mom ever. She's truly just one of the most amazing people I know. But she was always very supportive and there and helping. Um, and you know, the church does give, give the wives support as far as like help with the home and help with meals and you know, different things like that. So I'm sure that there was stress in them. You know, I'm sure it's a stressful situation. I never felt that stress from my parents.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Okay.

Rachel [00:28:05] It didn't change the dynamic in the home. You know, they were gone a lot and sometimes we would have, if they were going to be gone overnight or things like that, we would have some of the sister missionaries come and stay with us just, you know, to make sure that somebody was home. But even we were older, a little bit older. I wasn't. Some of my siblings were older. I was still younger when we went out.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Okay.

Rachel [00:28:34] So, yeah, it was amazing. I loved it.

Early Signs of Trouble After the Mission

John Dehlin [00:28:37] So at the completion of the mission, were there any signs that your, your dad was struggling or there were problems in the home or. Or was it just.

Rachel [00:28:46] I think it was. If I go back to the comment that I think so much of my dad is and who he thinks he is, who he. What gives him value, where he finds his value is tied to the church. I do think coming home and not having another high level calling was hard for him. This is just my observation. He's never said that. But I do think that was difficult because there was, you know, that's so much of his identity.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] So one minute you're mission president in charge of 150 youth or whatever, meeting with apostles and general authorities.

Rachel [00:29:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] And then all of a sudden you're back schlepping as a BYU professor and you've been gone three years. That's probably not great for your career as a BYU professor to take three years off. There might be promotions or advancements or even research that you miss out on. I'm just guessing, you know.

Rachel [00:29:47] Yeah. And I, I don't know enough about that. I think it's probably. I don't. It could have negatively impacted his career. I don't think it did a lot.

John Dehlin [00:29:57] Okay.

Rachel [00:29:58] But I, you know, again, being young, I wasn't super aware of all that stuff. But. But yeah, when I, when we came back from the mission, that's, that's when the abuse started. Shortly after. Within a couple months.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] Within a couple months. So, again, because I, I don't. I, I haven't spent a lot of time in the space. I haven't done a lot. When I worked as a therapist, I didn't spend a lot of time doing abuse and trauma because I believe that's its own specialty. And that wasn't something that I specialized in. Like, I can't even imagine. Like, like, and this is really hard because I only want you to talk about what you're comfortable talking about. I don't want this to be triggering for you or, or listeners. Like, I can't even imagine. Like, like, if I'm thinking. If I'm, like, trying to put myself in the mind of, like, how do I abuse? And I don't even know if that happens. It's like, mar. You know, my wife can't find out. I don't want my kids to tell anybody. Like, there are just so many ways this blows up and is disastrous. So I, plus there's getting caught, let alone, you know, your kid telling someone. So, like, I can't even begin to think about how this would even. Well, why someone would do it, but then how you would even try and pull it off.

Rachel [00:31:17] And so how it begins.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Yeah. And so I, I'm not asking you to go into any details you don't want to or even. And I'm certainly not trying to be prying in any way.

Rachel [00:31:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] But. But I just, I, you know, I, I guess I'm asking this question from the perspective of a spouse or a sibling or a kid or a family member to, to help people understand how to watch for signs, how to, how to, how to. How to be vigilant in a way to where. If. If there's any chance of this type of stuff developing, how it can be watched for. So, I mean, that's, that's where this Question. You know, this question is kind of coming.

Rachel [00:31:56] I think it's a. I think it's a really critical and very important question because it doesn't start off, you know, if you think of levels, right. It doesn't start off where it's like level 10 and you're going, oh, my gosh. Right. My situation started. I was changing. I was. Had gotten out of the shower, came in. My dad came down to ask me a question and had come in before I had gotten dressed.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] And you would have been right at puberty.

Rachel [00:32:26] I mean, just a little bit past puberty.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] Okay, so 14. 14. 14. I think that age come. I think I read your outline that age comes in later with the gospel topics essays.

Rachel [00:32:36] Yes, it does. So I was 14, and nothing happened. Then, like, I remember feeling kind of uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] He said, he came down.

Rachel [00:32:47] He came into my bedroom to ask me a question. I had left the door open, you know, and so he had come down to. Just asked me a question and walked in and was like, oh, oh. You know, and he immediately kind of turned around, and he's like, I just had a question, and I hurried and, you know, got dressed and we answered the question. And that started, you know, that was that. And then slowly he would. You know, we were a family that was very affectionate, but not inappropriately. You know, we would tickle siblings. We'd tickle each other's hand, tickle my foot, you know, always begging each other to do that. And I loved to have my mom tickle my arms and tickle my hand. And so then my dad started doing it, and he had done it before, so it wasn't weird, but it just slowly progressed into where it felt uncomfortable to me

John Dehlin [00:33:51] and, like, watching TV or

Rachel [00:33:54] like, watching TV sometimes even with other family members there, because it was something. It wasn't weird, right? It just. And. And this is something with abuse where that I think is important. Often the. The person being abused, something just feels weird at first. And I remember thinking, you know, because, like, I. It's my home. I'm 14. I would wear my pajamas around the house, right? I didn't always have a bra on, and so sometimes it would tickle. And I felt like he was looking at me. Like he would kind of move my. My pajama top or something, and I would. I would sit there and I would. And I'd get up and kind of leave. I'd excuse myself from the situation. But I also remember thinking, this feels really off to me and. And icky. I can't think of a Different word. But it just. It didn't feel good to me. And. But I kept thinking, I know, you know, that's not what he's doing. My dad wouldn't do this to me. You know, that's. That can't be what he's intending. He doesn't know that it makes me feel this way. And so I would rationalize it that I was being crazy and I was always raised right. Honor your parents, all of that. And so it just, like, I had a hard time believing that that was what was actually happening, even though I didn't like it, even though it felt wrong to me. And it started out very, very safe, you know, they don't it. And so. And then it progresses. I think I've never had, like, you, any attraction to my children. Any attraction to children. And so I. But having been in a situation, I can only assume. And what I've learned and listened to and is they do check boundaries, right? Abusers don't come in. And very often, you know, go. Go really cross certain boundaries immediately. There's a lot of grooming involved. And I don't think my dad intentionally groomed me. I think what he was doing was checking, like, okay, look, she didn't respond when I did that. And that would. I mean, this. This went on for. The abuse went on for over two years. And it slowly got to where I was like, I can't. I can't deny that he's looking at me. I can't deny that he's tickling me closer and closer. I can't deny that literally anytime we were in a room alone together, he would touch me somehow. A hug or rubbing my back or, you know, something like. And then it was like, okay, I. I know. I don't want to think that that's what my dad is doing to me. So I think. But I knew that. That. That it was wrong. I knew that it was inappropriate, you know, And I think another really important aspect of abuse is it's not always extreme. And by that I mean it isn't always rape. It isn't always, you know, that molestation. And I know it's different for everybody, but I minimized it. In my mind, it's not that bad. Right? It's only. It's, you know, he hasn't crossed certain lines yet, but it makes you feel like you're kind of going crazy, too. Like, should this bug me? Because it does. And it. It is hard. And I. But is he really doing it? Like, you play these games, and then I couldn't I didn't feel like I could say, like, you know, if I say something to him and he's like, no, no, this isn't sexual to me at all. Like, I can't believe you would think that as your dad, why would I ever do something? And then, you know how mortifying that would be for me. It for 14 that my dad. That I accused my dad of that. And he's like, no, not at all. You know, but there were. There were just a lot. Like, one time I was working on a paper for school, and everybody else was asleep, and he would come in and he would. He was, you know, tickling me, lifting kind of. He lift up my shirt kind of just where he could see down. And I finally said, oh, I'm really tired. I gotta go to bed. So I went to bed, and I had to get this paper done. And I remember laying in my bed for, like a half hour, 45 minutes, hoping my dad was asleep and going back in and working on the paper on the computer with the lights off so that I didn't wake him up. And he still woke up, and he came back in and. And I think that was probably one of the times that I was like, I can't. He. He knows. You know, it's like, in a way, I felt like I was being stalked in my own home. And. And my grades started to dip. I started sleeping a lot, working a lot. Well, I hadn't started working yet, but. But just sleeping a lot. Not. My grades started to go bad. I still had a very, very close relationship with my mom. And I think it's also important to note that while the molestation was going on, he was also very verbally abusive. And some of this stuff that I still struggle with today. But he would say things like, you know, you're so. You're so fat that no one will ever love you. I don't know how many anybody could ever love you. He'd comment on things I ate, how much I ate, how I was the most difficult child in the family. And so it was this mix of almost cutting me down, but then anytime we were alone, touching or looking at me, and. And I fell into a pretty deep depression. And my mom noticed. I mean, my mom. My mom is amazing. And she would constantly be, like, asking me what was wrong and, you know, what. You know, what she could do to help. And I. I didn't think I could ever tell anybody. Like, how could I tell my mom that this is what her. Her husband and my dad what they're Doing?

Disclosure of the Abuse and Initial Reactions

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Why? What were you afraid of?

Rachel [00:41:39] I was afraid of not being believed. I was afraid of a lot of it was in my head.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Yeah, what? Yeah, what if you're. What? Yeah, I could imagine you thinking, yeah, because if he's gaslighting you, then in your mind it's like, whoa, I make this false accusation. I make this accusation. We.

Rachel [00:41:58] And we never. Like, my dad and I never talked about it. Like, it would just happen and then like, I would leave and I remember sometimes just freezing and. But it was never acknowledged. And so what if they didn't? You know, what if he accused me of lying? What if he said, you know, what if my mom didn't believe me? What if. What if I'm the reason my parents get divorced? You know, what if, you know, and I had a great childhood. I was a difficult child. I was not difficult in like, non Mormon sort of ways. I just was dramatic. I, you know, was obnoxious. I was a brat. I was all of those things. And I fully own that, you know, and so I think, you know, in a lot of ways I was a difficult child. And I wondered if, you know, oh, here, here goes Rachel again, you know, this is Rachel being dramatic and, you know, just concerns. Concerns around that. And there's a part of it that I didn't want to believe it was happening. There's a part of it that I just didn't want to deal with it. I was in denial. And I think that's where a lot of the sleep came and is just to kind of get away from it. And it. Yeah, so it's really hard. And I think this is one of the things when people say, like, why didn't she speak up or he speak up sooner? It's not always easy to speak up, especially when you look at power dynamics and just. It is. It isn't always something so blatant, too, that it's like, you know, that there's proof or anything like that. It's. It is hard to speak up.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] And if he's keeping it intentionally sort of ambiguous. Yeah, it's clear. It's clear to you that he's crossing a line, but maybe he's trying to keep it just ambiguous enough to where there's always plausible deniability.

Rachel [00:44:05] Yeah. And I would notice, like, if we were alone in the room, he'd be tickling me where it felt really, really uncomfortable. Somebody else would walk in and it would go to the safe place. Right. Like he'd tickle my arm and. As opposed to more like, you know, My shoulders or. Yeah, upper chest. And, and so it was like, okay, I think he's, he knows that that's uncomfortable and he knows that's inappropriate because he stopped as soon as somebody came in and went to wear was appropriate and. But it happened all the time. Anytime we were alone in the room together, he would touch me in some way.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] So I'm so sorry. And you didn't feel like you could say to him, hey, dad, this makes me uncomfortable. I need you to stop.

Rachel [00:45:04] I, I didn't. Yeah, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] And just to be clear, there's no blame ever for a, for a minor, even for an adult kid. Like, I don't ask those questions in any way implying responsibility. It's more to understand, Right. That a kid feels powerless even to. Just because there's a scenario where you don't blow up your dad's marriage or career. You just kind of say, hey, dad, you're doing, you're doing this. I don't know if you intend it or not, but it's making me really uncomfortable. I need it to stop. I, I'm, I'm Putting it, a 52 year old male's experience into the language of a 14 year old girl in a patriarchy.

Rachel [00:45:47] I was gonna say in a patriarchy, in a, in a religious. I mean, there was a lot of shame on my part around being virtuous now, you know, was I, was I still pure? You know, I'm going to Young women every week and talking about how that is like, you know, I'm going to, to. I don't, I started seminary, I think, in the middle of this, but just, you know, all of those aspects of. Am I damaged goods now?

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Purity culture.

Rachel [00:46:19] Yeah, the purity culture. And, and there was a huge part of me that I didn't want to admit what was happening and I kind of wanted to just disappear. And I think that's where the depression came in. I also don't think we give kids permission or language to speak up. And I feel I've, I have tried very, very hard with my kids to give them that language and that permission very blatantly and clearly from the time they were little, but I don't think most of us do that. And I definitely didn't have language or permission to challenge it.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Yeah.

Rachel [00:47:09] And, and I will say that there was a lot of shame for a long time that I didn't say something.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] You felt shame?

Rachel [00:47:20] I felt a lot of shame and guilt that I didn't speak up earlier or say something. And so really, you know, this was going on. I was falling into a depression. My grades were dropping. And my mom is the one who just kept saying, I don't know what's happening. I don't know what's going on, but I know something's going on, and I don't know how to fix it, but I feel like I'm losing you, and. And I won't stand by and just let you disappear on me. And she had me go to therapy. And so, you know, she said, I don't know what else to do. So. But you are going. You know, I won't just stand by and let nothing and do nothing. So she had me go to therapy. And the second I started going to therapy, it stopped. And I know it stopped because my dad was afraid I was going to say something. He's told me that. And so then going to therapy, I thought, oh, well, now it's stopped, so I don't have to say anything. And so I just kind of, you know, played the. Kind of played the therapy game and talked about everything but what was really happening.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] So you didn't tell your therapist?

Rachel [00:49:02] I did not tell my therapist, no. Nope. And because it had stopped, and now it was, you know, I didn't. I didn't have to because it was, you know, really all I wanted was for it to stop. And it did. And so I was like, okay. So we just kind of kept going. I didn't. So I wasn't dealing with it, though. And after about six months of therapy, my parents had a session with my therapist, and she told him that I wasn't. She couldn't get a lot out of me, and she didn't know what was happening. And my dad got the signal in that meeting that I hadn't said anything. And it started again that night.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Oh, no.

Rachel [00:49:48] So. And then it escalated pretty quickly after that because he.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] Maybe he felt safe. Like, she's not going to tell.

Rachel [00:49:58] I think there was a component. Like, she's not. Yeah. And we have talked about later where he said, I knew that you hadn't told her, and that's why it started again. He did feel safe. And it escalated pretty quickly. He. He went, you know, I. He did things that were blatantly like, I couldn't. I couldn't deny what he had done. You know, it was all above the waist, but it was. He actually went and fondled me under my bra. And that was the time that I finally got up and I turned around and I looked at him and I said, I can't believe you're doing this to me. And I can't believe I thought. Because I thought you loved me. And he just said he was sorry. He was sorry. He was sorry. And I think once it had crossed that line where there was just no denying the combination of it starting as soon as he met with my therapist, it escalating so quickly. And I got up and I. I did at that point, just said, I can't. I can't believe you did. I can't believe that you did this. And I went to my room and the next day. And so this was two years in now, approximately two years in, I came home and he was the only one home. And so I left. And at this time, I was over 16, so I had a driver's license and I left and I went to a friend's house who was in college that I worked with. And he was the first person I ever told. And I just told him that I couldn't, you know, and he said, you're not going home. You can stay here. And, you know, this was long before the days of cell phones or anything like that. So I called my dad at about 11 o' clock that night and just said, I'm not coming home. And he said, then what am I, you know, what am I supposed to tell your mom? And I said, you can tell her anything you want because I can't tell her this. I can't be the one to destroy Mom. I can't. So you can tell her whatever you want, but I'm not coming home. And he told her that night what had been happening and told her the truth. So in the morning, I called my dad and he said, I told her the truth because I said, what did you tell her so that I. I mean, I was going to be complicit in it because I didn't want to hurt my mom.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] I have to imagine as a teen, you would be worried that your mom would feel like you were somehow encouraging or complicit, such that she would feel like threatened or. I mean, you'd have to carry those fears that she would feel like you were somehow a threat to her. Does that make sense?

Rachel [00:53:29] Yeah, I. That was never a concern of mine.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Okay.

Rachel [00:53:32] I'm sure that they're for other people. Right. Like, I know every experience is. Is unique. That was never a concern. It was. Out of the love that I have for my mom. I don't want to hurt her. She thought she had this idyllic marriage and life, and I didn't want to be the one to destroy That I didn't want to be the one to take that away from her. And so that was my biggest concern. I. I don't even remember if I was concerned about my mom believing me at that point before my dad told her. And so I met with. I, you know, saw my mom that day. She just told me she was sorry. And she loved me and she believed me. And that I was her number one concern. And that. I mean, I remember her asking me if she knew if I needed her to divorce my dad. And I was like, I'm just trying to, like, stay sane. I'm just trying to, like, be okay myself. Mom. I can't make that decision. And, you know, she. She made it very, very clear in the early days that I was the priority and that what I needed was the most critical, that she believed me and that if anything ever happened again, all I had to do was tell her and it would be done. Like. And.

Mother's Response and Family Fallout

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Wow.

Rachel [00:55:34] I know that that is a unique situation for victims.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] Yeah.

Rachel [00:55:40] And I am so incredibly grateful to my mom for the way she responded, and that's a huge part of my healing. So for those listeners who are listening who didn't. Who. Who were also abused and didn't have that same response, like, it breaks my heart because I can't imagine where I'd be if I hadn't had that.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Because some of the other possible responses are not believing you, to blaming you, to getting angry at you. Right. And I'm sure I'm not even thinking of all the possible.

Rachel [00:56:17] I. I've heard stories of other people who. The mom blames them. Right. You must have done something. Why didn't you say something? You're making this up. Even when the other person admits some guilt in it. And. And it's. Or they just want to live in denial. So it's the. The child, it's the victim who has the issues, and maybe they get sent somewhere. You know, I've heard a lot of really, really awful stories and about how people respond. And I am. My mom didn't do everything right, but my mom did a lot of things right. And the one thing she did say is, I. I really feel like me, you and your dad can work this out. I don't feel like we need to tell other people. Like, but, you know, between the three of us, we can. We can resolve this and we can make this okay. And that's probably the one thing that my mom could have or should have done differently. But when I look at the grand scheme of things, I am incredibly fortunate in how my mom responded. Incredibly fortunate.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] When you say the one thing she could have done differently, just to be

Rachel [00:57:39] explicit, is what that's, you know, she said, I think between me, you and your dad, we can figure this out.

John Dehlin [00:57:46] Okay?

Rachel [00:57:46] We can resolve this.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] So basically saying, let's keep this in the family.

Rachel [00:57:50] Let's keep this not even in the family. Let's keep this between me, you and your dad, and the therapist. Right. Like, let's just. When it comes to. And she did. She did also insist that my dad go to the bishop and confess. So it was more, let's make sure that he does what he needs to within the church, but we just don't need to tell all the siblings, we don't need to go broader with this. Let's do it between the three of us. But, you know, it was very much my dad needs to go to the bishop and that I was the priority, but that we could take care of this, the three of us, that we didn't need to share it with the siblings.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] So right there, I mean, if we're trying to think about the ideal response, I don't know what the ideal response is, but what, what occurs to me is, is law enforcement potentially gets involved. I don't know, like, on the one hand, if it's my family, do I want to blow up the family? Do I want to have potentially child and protective services come? Do I want to have the. The primary breadwinner incarcerated? Potentially, like the job loss, like, I'm thinking about when, when down in Short Creek and in. In air, you know, Arizona and Colorado City, when the polygamists were all violating the law, the government would come in and arrest all the men and put them in jail. But if. If orthodox traditional Mormonism is patriarchal, those. Those families and that society was super patriarchal. And what they found is you throw all the polygamous men in prison, the women and children just starve.

Rachel [00:59:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:43] And so. So that idea of man, on the one hand, you just want law and police and criminal prosecution. You know, you want to involve the law. And then on the other hand, what does that do? Your mom's a victim. Your mom did the Mormon dream, was even living the gospel. Didn't get an education, didn't get a career, and probably isn't in a position to have the primary breadwinner be incarcerated or lose his job. And so in some sense, I can see, I'm not trying to, like, make excuses, but I can see why in a highly patriarchal, orthodox Mormon context, maybe the instinct isn't to get law enforcement involved or to tell siblings or to tell extended family because, like, where's that going to lead? Who wants to starve? Who wants to starve? Right, Right.

Rachel [01:00:35] Well. And I think one, I'm not even thinking that far. I am literally just trying to be okay.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel [01:00:42] I am literally just trying to wake up.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Yeah.

Rachel [01:00:46] And go to school.

John Dehlin [01:00:47] Yeah.

Rachel [01:00:48] And stay alive. Stay alive.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] Yeah.

Rachel [01:00:50] Honestly.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] Yeah.

Rachel [01:00:52] I, you know, suicidal ideation had definitely crossed my mind many times that if I just. If something happened, if I was gone, everything would be okay with the family, you know, So I think, and I don't even think that crossed my mom's mind. I think for my mom, it's very much, I gotta take care of my daughter. My whole world, everything I thought I knew has shifted and I need to be there for my daughter and how do I pick up the pieces for me? And her main response was accountability came from the church. And she did say he had to go and confess to the bishop.

Guest [01:01:44] And he did.

Rachel [01:01:46] And so, you know, and, and my mom, like, I said one other thing I really, like, I just want to point out how many amazing things my mom did. Another thing she said is that this was my house and if he ever came home and I was home alone, he had to leave, that all of that was his. It was all on him to make it better. And like, she did all these things that. For.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] To keep you safe. To keep me safe or to help you feel safe.

Rachel [01:02:20] And, and I think about how she grew up and the time she grew up, like, it blows my mind. She did so many things right. It really does.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] Yeah.

The Bishop's Handling of the Abuse Report

Rachel [01:02:29] This was not even.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] This was 20 years ago.

Rachel [01:02:31] Like over 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [01:02:33] Yeah.

Rachel [01:02:33] Yeah. Right. And it really does truly blow my mind how many things she did. Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] Kind of the mama bear. Yeah.

Rachel [01:02:43] I mean, just, you know, she immediately had him put a lock on my bedroom door just to make me feel safe, you know. But there were times that he would come home and he would see I was the only one and he would just have to leave until he knew somebody else was in the house with me. Like, and my mom made it very clear that anything I needed, she would do. But it's also a lot to put on a 16 year old to put, you know, do I need him to get divorced? Do I need him? I don't. Like, I was just like, I don't even know what I need, Mom. And so my dad went to his bishop and they, he confessed to him. And I know they held a council. I was not involved at all. Nobody talked to me to verify what happened.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] So the bishop never, never pulled you aside to talk to you?

Rachel [01:03:43] No, nobody in the church reached out to me or to my mom.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] What was that like? Or to your mom?

Rachel [01:03:52] Or to my mom.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] How, How? So she had your dad talk to the bishop, but then the bishop never circled back with. With your mom or you?

Rachel [01:04:02] No, I think they left it for the most part for my dad to communicate what was happening.

Guest [01:04:09] And that could have been anything.

Rachel [01:04:11] It could have been anything.

Guest [01:04:12] He could have just said the bare minimum or something.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] And he could have lied. He could have.

Rachel [01:04:17] Yeah.

Guest [01:04:17] Not given the full story. That's.

Rachel [01:04:19] But they never circled back with me. They never circled back with my mom. They never. Well, so they went through the council.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] Okay, I'm sorry, can I just jump in really quickly? What listeners, especially non Mormon listeners, but all listeners need to understand is that historically, the way the church has dealt with this is the bishops. Mormon bishops have a hotline that they call. It's like a 1-800-number. Whenever abuse. Whenever abuse surfaces, the bishop calls a 1-800-number hotline. And this 1-800-number hotline goes to Curtin McConkey, the church's law firm.

Rachel [01:04:58] I don't know if that was in place at the time. Yeah, could have been.

John Dehlin [01:05:02] I'm not saying it was, but I'm trying to give a little bit of background for my understanding of how this process historically has worked.

Rachel [01:05:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] And traditionally, as I understand it, the bishop calls Kurt McConkey the law firm. And the hotline is not set up to protect the victim. It's not set up to get the victim mental health resources. It's not set up to support the family and protect the family. It's literally set up to protect the church from potential legal liability. And traditionally, as I understand it, this hotline, Curtin McConkey tells the bishop, do not involve law enforcement. So it tells the bishop not to. And you have to add to that the fact that the Mormon Church has worked really hard in the Utah state legislature to make it so that Mormon bishops and leaders are not mandatory reporters. So even though a therapist might be a mandatory reporter or. Or a school teacher might be a mandatory reporter, Bishops, if your dad goes and confesses to the bishop, Utah law makes it so the bishop does not have to ever report to law enforcement. Keep it in the family, keep it in the church. And then the bishop, Curtin McConkey, would have told your dad's bishop to not involve law enforcement, and, And. And to keep it as quiet. And as uncontained. And I have to think that a couple things. The church doesn't want to get sued. And so if there's no legal record there, there's less evidence for a potential lawsuit. And then also your dad was a, was a BYU professor, a former mission president, high profile, former bishop. The church doesn't want a bunch of members knowing that someone who was called of God and who operated at such a high level was also an abuser. And so they want to work really hard to limit the number of people that are ever told to limit the pr, reputation exposure of the church and the legal exposure for the church. And in all of this process, the health and the well being of the victims and of the families, as I understand it, is pretty much completely ignored and irrelevant and, or even like in some way worked against because it's the church's, I hate to say it, money, power and reputation that are optimized in this scenario. Now that's, I'm not trying to actually like throw shade on the church. I'm literally, I've I've communicated with well over a thousand victims at this point in my 20 years doing this. This is the best I can gather, even trying to be objective of how the system is set up to this day. But, but I'm not trying to put all that in your story.

Rachel [01:08:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:03] I'm just trying to give a little bit of context. Now you tell me.

Rachel [01:08:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] And if that's right or wrong or.

Rachel [01:08:08] My understanding is that is what the current protocol is.

John Dehlin [01:08:12] Yeah.

Rachel [01:08:14] And at the time, I don't know if they had that protocol, but I do know that I was never content well before the council was held and the decision was made. I was never contacted, My mom was never included in that. And my dad told us that he, the council had decided to disfellowship him for three months. So that was the punishment that my dad received.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] Do you want to tell why that? I mean?

Rachel [01:08:50] Well, no, and I can. So the, the stake president at that point reached out to me and met with me and asked how I was doing and said that he realizes I probably wanted my dad excommunicated, but that there were a couple, there were a number of factors that played into their decision and that every situation is unique and that they rely on a lot of prayer in making these decisions. And I want to also say that the state president is a good man. I don't blame him. I feel like the way we put laymen into these positions, they're not equipped to handle. I don't think he made the right decision in this situation.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Why not? Why not?

Rachel [01:09:46] Because. Well, I'll get to why. I'll get to why. But. So he met with me and he said, the factors that played into your dad is one, he confessed. But he only confessed when I didn't come home.

John Dehlin [01:09:59] Yeah,

Rachel [01:10:03] he confessed. And did I want to. They had to take into consideration everything. Part of it being his employment and his family. And if they excommunicated him, he would lose his job, he would lose his pension. And that wouldn't only hurt my dad, but it would hurt my mom. And you don't want to do that now, do you, Rachel? And at the time I was like, no, I don't want. I know as I went further in my healing and I'm talking probably 10, 15 years later, I look back at that and that wasn't on me. The way stake president said that, that you don't want to do that now, do you? That would have meant that if they had, it was my fault that my dad would have lost his job. It was my fault. Because, you know, you don't want to do that now, do you, Rachel? No, I don't. And then he also said, and it's not like he raped you. He didn't. That's true.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] Meaning there wasn't like.

Rachel [01:11:27] He didn't rape me.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] He didn't, you know, sexual intercourse.

Rachel [01:11:30] It wasn't enough. It wasn't enough abuse. It, it didn't. You know, even my therapist, who was Mormon, would say to me, oh, I've had so many cases that were worse. So many cases and like minimize. And I kept thinking, then why am I so messed up? And it wasn't. But here's the thing. I think so much abuse doesn't move into rape. But I was basically, for two years, stocked in my own home, terrified of my dad looking at me and touching me. And I was 14. And what that told me is one, it was all on me. And two, my abuse wasn't enough. And I just recently, in fact, I listened to it on the way over here today. Listen to the gymnast when they testified in front of Congress.

John Dehlin [01:12:29] This is the nas. Nas.

Rachel [01:12:30] The Nasser.

John Dehlin [01:12:31] Yeah. And Olympic gymnast.

Rachel [01:12:33] Yeah. And one of them said, how much, you know, my, how much abuse is enough? Like my abuse was enough. What happened to me was enough. And it was wrong. And, and to minimize that to a 16 year old who literally feels like she's going crazy and doesn't know where her worth is and feels guilt and feels shame and feels responsibility and feels used and damaged goods and all the other feelings and emotions that come with that, to minimize it and to say, well, it's not like this happened. Okay, yeah, you're right. So why am I so messed up? You know, and. And that. That was hard. And again, he's a good man who was put in a position that he had no training for. But one of the. One of the reasons I wanted to do this today was to help people understand what you say to abuse victims or what you say about abuse victims, because you don't know who you're talking to. And if they have been abused. And when you say things like, oh, that isn't that bad, or, well, what were they wearing? Or any of that stuff, you minimize and you make them take the responsibility and the blame. And I carried that shame and that guilt for a long, long time. And I don't feel shame anymore about my story. I didn't do anything wrong, but at the time, I felt very much so like I did. You actually had an episode. I think it was Matt Long, who was a. From Arizona. I remember listening to that episode, and I felt seen and heard because I remember him saying, you don't ask the victim if they want authorities involved. Like, they're the victim. They're. They're, you know, usually very young. And he just. He nailed so many things that I was just like, oh, my gosh. If we had more people who understood the situation, like he explained it on that episode, it was so empowering for me. There were times that I would. When I was listening to it, that I would just break down crying because I was like, oh, my gosh, he gets it. He gets it. You know, And I wish people had responded that way. I wish my state president would have responded that way. And all I could think was like, he can't take the sacrament for three months. That's his. That's the punishment from the church. And I get that when the sacrament tray is passed and you don't take it, that they're shame. And people wonder what and why and. But that's it. That's all he gets. It was hard. It was really, really hard. And that was the only time that the church reached out to me. And at that time, they didn't offer any support. I think one he knew.

Guest [01:15:55] He.

Rachel [01:15:56] I think they knew I was already seeing a therapist, so maybe that's why. But even my therapist said things like my therapist actually said to me, legally, I'm supposed to notify the authorities, but I really feel like you're strong enough and you know, that would be more damaging than good for your family. So I'm not going to.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] And would this have been a therapist maybe approved by the church or recommended.

Rachel [01:16:24] Wasn't approved or recommended by the church. No, this. But was a member of the church, but it was a therapist that, that my mother and I found on, on our own.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] Okay.

Rachel [01:16:35] Before she knew about the abuse.

John Dehlin [01:16:37] But there's that conflict of interest where if this is a orthodox believing temple recommending holding therapist who maybe views their loyalty to the church over their loyalty to the profession, they would be as concerned about protecting the church as they would be about giving you the treatment you need. Maybe.

Rachel [01:16:57] Yeah. And I think too had justified it in their mind that it would make matters worse that involving the authorities. And I think again, it was what my dad had done didn't cross a line in a lot of people's heads.

Guest [01:17:15] Like,

Rachel [01:17:17] you know, because it wasn't rape. Because it wasn't. But I also think when you go back to the question that you asked around, how is a, you know, as a 52 year old male, and I'm trying to understand this, how do you even start. You don't always cross that line where it's so blatant. Right. And my dad, we did a couple therapy sessions together and a couple of things that he told me, he told me one, he knew I hadn't told my therapist, so he thought he was safe again. That's why it started again the night that he got that cue for my therapist. He also said things like he always used the back of his hand and he justified it by not using the palm of his hand. Like weird shit like that, that. So how do they, how do they justify it? How do they get into that? How do they, you know, and I was groomed. He, he, it started, it progressed very, very slowly. But he knew what he was doing the whole time. Yeah, from the moment I felt uncomfortable, he knew what he was doing.

Feeling Unsafe and Unprotected in the Home

John Dehlin [01:18:29] I want to make this sidetrack really brief, Kara, but I'm thinking about like just this, this month there's been all this conversation on the Internet about soaking and dirfing and docking. Just these weird behavioral boundaries that kind of BYU students observe to try and not have intercourse so that they can, quote, stay worthy and that. So that's kind of where we've been as a people. It's like, okay, intercourse is the bad thing. So let's figure out all these ways we can do whatever to not do the bad thing.

Rachel [01:19:07] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:07] And there's a part of me that's like, what a dumb. Why are we even highlighting this? Like, it's a weird, obscure thing, but where's the real problem here? But it's starting to occur to me that there's. There's that kind of weird boundary enforcement of sexuality as one model with shame and. And then there's this other model that I think we do talk about a lot, Kara, which is just consent in healthy sex education and healthy in, you know, healthy education around consent. Where if we taught, if. If the Mormon Church could follow the example of the Unitarian Universalists, have healthy sex education first off, and then teach healthy boundaries and consent and education around abuse, if that was part of the curriculum and it wasn't this weird. Oh, was it intercourse or not? Okay, if it's not intercourse, but it's anal or whatever, somehow it's okay. Or docking or dirfing. Like, if we could move to a real commitment to healthy education and healthy information about abuse and consent, and that was as important as. As a part of our curriculum as priesthood authority and patriarchy and temple ordinances and baptism, why wouldn't. Why wouldn't that be as important of a thing to educate our youth and adults about as. As a. Maybe that's where. Maybe that's where it is important that we talk about some of these weird boundary things. I don't know. Does any of that make sense, Kara?

Guest [01:20:44] Yeah.

Rachel [01:20:44] Yeah.

Guest [01:20:44] And the only thing I would add to that is really helping people to understand that your body is owned by you. And the. The boundary is almost like a cliche at this point. We're like boundaries this boundaries that we use boundaries in so many different ways, but. And actually nailing down what it means that my body is my own. I know that in Mormonism, it's kind of on loan to me from my heavenly Father and that I am a spirit child of him that's in, like, in this body right now. And so I just think that a lot of confusing messages, especially to me as a teen growing up, going through puberty, figuring out how your body works, what you are entitled to do, what you aren't. And then there's, you know, a hard line with, like, oh, you can't touch yourself there. That would be masturbation. That would be a sin. And then furthermore, like, okay, but if somebody else touches me, what should I be doing here? Who. Who owns this body? Is it. I don't know.

Rachel [01:21:40] I.

Guest [01:21:41] It's just a very, very confusing time between childhood and growing up, also mixing in with always feeling like you're in trouble, whether it's breaking a Mormon rule or just a rule of your house. Not really feeling like you have ownership over this, this whole body right here. And so as, as I'm listening to your story, the thing that's really sticking with me is when you said feeling like a prisoner in your own home and how mentally you must not have felt like your body at any given time was your own.

Rachel [01:22:13] No. Yeah, I felt like I was being stalked in my own home.

Guest [01:22:17] Yeah. And like, that must have.

Rachel [01:22:19] That. I didn't even have that language back then to explain it. And I think all of this is so critical on how we talk about it, how we teach our kids. I have, you know, my parents, we never talked about sex. We never talked about, you know, all of that. I got at church around be pure, you know, got the, the gum or I think in my seminary class, it

John Dehlin [01:22:46] was a Twinkie licked cupcake.

Rachel [01:22:48] Yeah, all of that. And, and I, I never really had full authority over my body or anything. Right. All my choices were kind of lined out for me. I. This is what a Mormon girl does. This is, you know, I get married, have kids. Like, all of it was all lined out. And, and I remember, I remember thinking very vividly, who will want me now? Who will want me now that my dad has been attracted to me? Like, that's just fucked up. I don't know if I can say that, but it is. It's just. It's fucked up. And it fucked me up for a long time. And, and so feeling that way and not having language, being in a patriarchal society where you don't challenge authority, honor thy father and thy mother. I felt like staying silent. I was honoring both my father and my mother. I felt like I was doing what I was supposed to do to keep the family together and to stay happy and to not burden everybody with this. And I remember listening to Elizabeth Smart saying, you know, when people say, why didn't she leave? Why didn't she speak up when she was in public? And, you know, after she, she said after she was raped the first time, all she could think of was that chewed up gum. And who would want her now and would her own family even want her? Like the damage we do to boys and girls around how we talk about all of this and what girls can wear and can't wear and just all of it is so damaging. And I will tell you, with my kids, I have made it very clear from the time they were little, from the time they were one and two and could speak, I would ask them if I Could give them a kiss. And if they said no, I said, okay. And I would always make it very clear, you know, when they were old enough to start washing themselves in the bathroom, telling them, like, you know, sometimes they're like, oh, will you wash me? And I'm like, I'll wash your hair. I'll wash your. But your privates. You're. It's too. You're too old. I. Nobody should be touching those but you. And so you need to wash your privates. And we used words like penis and labia. And, you know, it was like, no, you need to wash your penis. That's. Nobody needs to be touching that. You're old enough that it's not appropriate for me to do that. We talk as a family. We don't even do it one on one, but we talk as a family around abuse and who can touch you and who can't and who you tell. One of the things that I came out of this with is I am hell bent on protecting my kids. And I remember when I had my first child, just thinking, how do I keep them protected? How do I make sure they don't ever go through something that I went through? And I've done that by even times that it's super uncomfortable for me. I've learned it's uncomfortable for me, but it's not uncomfortable for them. It isn't. Sometimes it is a little bit, and then when we go, no, this is normal. This is what. You know, it's okay to talk about puberty. It's okay to talk about this. You know, we're the ones. Adults are the ones who make it weird, not the kids. You know, it's no. It's no stranger for them to hear the word penis than it is to hear elbow. They don't have anything associated with that. Unless we associate weirdness or strange or inappropriate or anything like that.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] Yeah.

Rachel [01:26:21] And, you know, one of my kids from a very young age would always, like. I'd say, can I have a hug? And he'd say, no, it's my body, my choice. Because I would say that, and I'd go, you're right. And then he really wanted a hug, but he had to exert. That was like, only thing he had full power over. And he would exert that, and I. We would always respect it. And then he'd say, well, if you really want to hug, mom. And I'm like, only if you would like a hug. Like, teaching them when they are that young. And I have a book that we read every year or Review every year before school. And I take that book to the daycare. And I said, look, this is what I'm teaching my kids. So if they ever talk to you about this, I take it to the grandparents. I let everybody who has something to do with my kids know, like, they're not the victim that, you know, you have to know that they are empowered to speak up. And I have even said to my kids, if I am the one who violates you, you tell dad. Even I don't get away with that because I want my kids to know. I've told my kids, if somebody hugs you and it makes you feel icky, tell me, tell me. I don't care if it's a hug. I don't make them kiss aunts and uncles. Like, all of those things that we do that we don't think have any impact. We are teaching our kids about boundaries and consent from the time they are little, little, little. And that's something that I has been. You know, I'm very open about talking about my experience with my husband. He knew that early on when we dated. Um, and we are very. You know, I have not shared it with my kids. I think I will when they're older. I just don't know that they're old enough to fully, you know, to put that on them yet. But they absolutely know.

John Dehlin [01:28:14] Yeah.

Rachel [01:28:15] That. You know, and I still know that. That doesn't mean that it can't happen to them.

John Dehlin [01:28:20] Yeah.

Rachel [01:28:20] And that somebody can't manipulate them to where they won't say anything.

John Dehlin [01:28:25] And we've got more of your story to tell, so I want to. I want to say amen to everything you said. And I also don't want to. I don't want to miss more of the story and then we'll come back. But. Yeah, so if I had to summarize what I'm hearing so far, and you and Kara can help me. It's. It's a lack of healthy sex education in the home in Mormonism and in Mormon families, a lack of education around consent, a toxic purity culture. It's a patriarchy where men in power have way too much power and women and children are disempowered. I'm hearing all of that. It's a lack of awareness around abuse. Certainly there could be lots of education and curriculum to help teach about how abuse happens and how to prevent it and how to empower children to talk about it. And then I just. I want to circle back to this idea of your dad getting three months slap on the wrist yeah, like he was a former bishop, former mission president. You know, I, I don't want to sound petty when I say this, but you think about like someone like Sam Young, what happened with Sam Young, former bishop, learned about all these examples of abuse and cover ups. You know, was worthy as a Mormon in every single way. And all Sam Young did was lead a movement to convince the church to stop all these practices that would lead to abuse and cover ups of abuse and, you know, keep bishops from meeting alone with 12 year old girls, hold people accountable, keep the COVID ups from happening. Sam Young was abused for leading that initiative and leading that march. Even though the church made changes in response to Sam's work. Bishop Sam Young was excommunicated for trying to make the church healthier and safer. And yet your dad was given a three month slap on the wrist. And then, you know, so like this idea of the church and I've heard this, just, that's, that was the main thing that like I wanted to really spotlight is how the church protects mind bogglingly. And no one believes this. You know, you have to see the movie Spotlight and you have to really get to know, really talk to abuse victims to understand that, that our church has this long, long, long history, thousands and thousands of instances of the church protecting the abusers at the expense of the victims. And your case was no different. Your dad's given this three month slap on the wrist. What is that like? How can that happen when Sam Young is excommunicated for fighting for victims? What is that? How can that happen? But also, what is that like as the victim to have. And I think we really need to go into this, it's your bishop and your stake president. And because Mormon leaders speak for God, it's the Lord who's saying that three months is good and then your dad can just return in full standing.

Church Leadership's Response and Sam Young's Advocacy

Rachel [01:31:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:46] Talk through what that is like and was like and what messages that sends and how that's just harmful in so many ways.

Rachel [01:31:55] Well, so at the time, right, we didn't have social media, we didn't have Sam Young's, we didn't have Mormon Stories podcast. We didn't have any of that. So what it said to me at the time was it wasn't that bad. It was like my abuse just wasn't that bad. And yet I am still struggling to find value in myself. And it makes I. What it does is it put a lot of it on me. One, you don't want to do that to your family. You don't want to do that to your mom, like those phrases, it's not like he raped you. All of that puts it back on the victim. And so I carried a lot of shame and a lot of guilt. And even with my parents, you know, my parents were like, I would act out with the family. I would. I was very disrespectful to my dad. Very disrespectful. Just blatantly disrespectful. And they would never say anything or do anything. They just took it after. Yeah, after.

John Dehlin [01:32:58] And because you had power at that point.

Rachel [01:33:01] Yeah, and I did. And I also knew that, you know, my mom had said, you tell me one thing happens, he's gone. And. And I knew I had that power.

John Dehlin [01:33:13] But your siblings didn't know.

Rachel [01:33:15] No, no, they didn't know. The three of us knew. My therapist knew the bishop and the bishop and the people on the council and the state president. And I never talked to the bishop. I talked to the stake president. And so we. We kind of just. I keep going to therapy. I felt like my therapist minimized it at the time. I would do a lot better. I was still active in the church. I thought I was going to get, you know, if I just have enough faith, if I do everything right, then I'll feel better about myself. I'll like myself. And. And so we just kind of went on, for lack of better term, like, we just kind of just went on and tried to help Me. Tried to help. You know, just. We didn't talk a lot about it. I would go to my therapy, my mom would check in, my dad would apologize, you know, and then we just didn't. We just. We didn't. We didn't. We don't talk about the hard stuff either in my family.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] And I imagine he's expected to resume his role as patriarch of the home. So what's it like for you to. Seeing him exert his authority as patriarch, knowing that this is what he did?

Rachel [01:34:31] He didn't exert it to the same way he used to.

John Dehlin [01:34:33] He was kind of spiritually emasculated a little bit.

Rachel [01:34:35] It fundamentally changed the doc. The dynamics of my parents for the better. My mom no longer just. It was like, okay, you're not perfect. And, you know, so if she saw something she didn't like, she would speak up where she hadn't before. And honestly, that to me was a positive that came out of this.

John Dehlin [01:34:57] Yeah. And it redistributed the power.

Rachel [01:35:00] Yes. He still, you know, when we'd go to church, he still had on that perfect game Phase, perfect family. Perfect. All that. But. And in the home, he still. He was a patriarch, but it.

Guest [01:35:13] He.

John Dehlin [01:35:15] Not to the same level without any community members knowing. I imagine you would have people go, oh, my gosh, you have such an amazing family. I can't. You're. I wish I was in your family. I kind of wondering what that was.

Rachel [01:35:29] Your dad. Oh, he's so amazing. Oh, your dad. Like, people who were, you know, in the ward when he was bishop, former missionaries where he was the mission president, constantly just like. And I'd get really angry and I would say things like, he's, you know, he's not all that. And then they think I was the bratty child. Right. And. And that's kind of like. We just kind of went on and I was really. And I used to say to my mom, you know, the siblings really think I'm kind of a. No, they don't. No, they don't. They love you.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] They all love you because they're wondering why you're acting, quote, bratty.

Rachel [01:36:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] But you can't. You can't tell them.

Rachel [01:36:13] No, I can't tell anybody. So. And so then I fast forward a couple of years where we're just.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] Oh, wait, really quick. What callings did your dad receive? Because so many times, inexplicably, like the church camp, often make these men bishops or mission presidents. That career is kind of over. So they put it with the youth or with kids.

Rachel [01:36:40] He didn't. He didn't ever do anything with the youth or the kids.

John Dehlin [01:36:44] Well, that's good, because it does happen.

Rachel [01:36:45] You know, I think he would. I don't even know for sure. He didn't have big callings, but he did have callings.

John Dehlin [01:36:52] Okay.

Rachel [01:36:53] None of it was with the youth.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] Okay. That's.

Rachel [01:36:56] And librarian, hopefully.

Guest [01:36:58] I heard that's kind of like a prison in the library.

Rachel [01:37:02] Yeah, I, you know, he was a home teacher, but, you know, things like that. And I know he had other callings, Gospel doctrine, maybe teacher, you know, things along those lines. But he did not have anything doctrine. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:16] Because that puts him in a position again, of being viewed as a spiritual authority in the ward.

Rachel [01:37:20] Well, he was always a spirit. He still is a spiritual authority in the ward. Yeah, he still is.

John Dehlin [01:37:25] Yeah. Oh, to this day, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Rachel [01:37:30] So. But yeah, so we just kind of, you know, went on and I continued to go to therapy, tried to be somewhat. Okay. I was still active in the church, but my siblings always, like, you know, why is she. She's so disrespectful to dad. And fast forward a couple of years, and I don't remember if it was three or four years down the road. I don't. And this is another thing when people say, oh, they can't remember the details. So much happens. You don't remember. Like, I can't remember how many years it was until my brother and I had this discussion. I can't. I know it was at least three, if not four, but my brother and I were talking one time, and he said, you know, we should do more as a family. We need it, you know, and he said something about my dad, and I was like, you know, just snotty. Made a snotty remark. And he just said, I am so sick of how you treat him. Do you know the sacrifices Dad's made for us? And, you know, just went off. And I was like, yeah, if you only knew. And he's like, what? If I knew what? And he was really like, you're a shit. Like, you know, I can't believe how you treat dad. Like, just. And I was just like. And he would push me, and he. You know, he was saying, what. What you say, if you only knew what. Rachel, what is it that we need to know? And. Because I can't see why you. How you could justify treating dad this way. And. And so I said to him, I will tell you, but you have to promise not to say anything. And I. He's like, what? I said, I promised mom and Dad I would never say anything to anyone. And he said, I promise I won't. I won't. And I told him. And what he did and what he said fundamentally changed my life for good. And he told me, I don't know how you're even functioning. I've gone from wondering how you could be so shitty to dad to how you can even be in the same room with him. And he told me he was sorry and that he loved me. But then what he did. So he went the next day to my parents and he said, rachel told me what's been happening and what happened between her and dad, and you guys aren't being fair to her. We do think she's a. Because we don't understand. And you aren't giving Rachel the love and the support that she needs to heal. She needs that from the siblings,

Carrying the Secret and Its Long-Term Burden

John Dehlin [01:40:54] because that's a lot for you to carry. Yeah, it's too much.

Rachel [01:40:59] So my mom said to me, you know, your brother told us that you guys had talked, and I was immediately, like, angry. Like, he promised he wouldn't say anything.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] Defending them. Well, not yourself.

Rachel [01:41:18] I was just like, I thought I was going to be in trouble.

John Dehlin [01:41:20] Yeah.

Rachel [01:41:20] Like I had promised. And now he's told him.

John Dehlin [01:41:25] Yeah.

Rachel [01:41:26] And. And my mom just said, we're sorry. And I didn't realize how the kids felt about you. And so they told all the siblings. They had a family council. My dad told all of them what had happened. And that breaking of the silence was so powerful. I cannot emphasize enough how secrets damage and hurt families and individuals and victims, because ultimately, my brother was the first one to say and demonstrate by his actions that I mattered, that my abuse was enough, and that my healing was more important than keeping my dad safe. And no one had said that in the whole time. It was always about protecting him.

John Dehlin [01:42:43] Even your mom, you're saying?

Rachel [01:42:44] Even my mom with everything she did. Right. When you tell someone to keep a secret like that, it. It inevitably put shame. Why can't we tell? Because it's embarrassing and it's shameful. I'm the. I'm the secret of the family. I'm the skeleton in the closet of the family. And. And you carry that. And that is a heavy, heavy weight for children. And at the time, I was still a child. I was a teen, but I'm still a child to carry. That's a lot. And for my brother to do that, this is the most emotional part of my story for me because it validated my pain and the hurt and that I mattered. And he saw me. He saw me, he loved me, and he stood up for me. And I cannot adequately describe what that does for a victim. Just breaking the silence. And so from that point on, I had my family, and now they all had this weight to deal with. And I can't share their stories. That's their stories. But it was hard on all of us. It was hard on all of us. But it also gave my mom support. Outside of just the person who needed her support, me. And, you know, it. It didn't immediately fix things, but it opened up and got rid of the. The shame. It opened the door to get rid of the shame. It wasn't immediate that the shame was gone, but it opened the door to get rid of the shame, and it opened the door for me to really, truly heal. So I will forever be grateful for him for doing that. And I'd still tell him when things happen, I'll shoot him a text or when something's in the media, I'll call him and just thank him again because it's powerful. So there's heroes in the story. There's people who didn't do the right thing. And then there's people who. And I hit on that. Because people listening may be in that situation to be that person, to stand up for someone and to say that they mattered. And if someone trusts you with their story and their truth, just be really careful how you handle it. Right. Don't minimize it. See them and you don't know how. You don't have to know how to fix it, but just see them and see their pain and, you know, validate them. That's, I think, the biggest thing. I felt validated, I felt worthy.

John Dehlin [01:46:19] So I'm so happy for all the good things your mom did, and I'm so happy for your brother. And I also want to say that I'm thinking about, like, I didn't experience any abuse growing up in the church. I didn't even have a bishop ask me if I masturbated. So, like, my experience is so different than some people. People where it's like, I loved being a Mormon and if it weren't for the truth claims, I'd be in it now. You know, that's never, it's never made sense to me. My amazing quote, amazing experience as a Mormon with, like, learning that Utah led the nation in suicides or porn use or depression or women, you know, women depression. Like, I, I've always, like, how is that possible? Most people have a great Mormon experience, like me, you know, but then if you think about, if things, you think about your situation and how awful it was for you and everyone involved. But, but in some sense, you were a lucky. You were one of the lucky ones.

Rachel [01:47:22] Very lucky.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] Because I know, you know, in this, you know, this happened just a few months ago where I, like, I was trying to prepare for an episode, and so I put out there, hey, if there's anyone who experienced abuse, you know, and you feel like your priesthood leadership mishandled it or your parents mishandled it, we let me know. And I got hundreds of messages from people, not just the people who follow me. And we're comfortable reaching out.

Rachel [01:47:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:46] And it was so different. It was like they were blamed and shamed by their parents, and the bishop didn't believe them or the bishop protected them and disciplined the victim. Like, I even heard about church discipline. The victims getting disciplined, where the perpetrators are and then. And then the parent in the family abuses other siblings, and so there's multiple siblings getting abused and they don't know and they can't talk. Like this culture of hide it and keep it silent. And don't tell anyone. It's not just abuse, physical and sexual and emotional abuse. It's also infidelity. It's also weird sexual things. It's also prescription drug use. It's also the LGBTQ stuff. Part of what's so deadly and toxic about Mormon culture, or what can be, is this culture of silence and of secrets, imperfection, and perfection that is just toxic to everyone involved. I'm. I'm amazed that you survived all this, carrying all this, all the secrets, all the shame, all the pressure from the family. And then I think about, okay, how is there so much death by suicide and Mormonism and so much prescription drug abuse and so much depression with the women and so many weird manifestations of unhealthy coping.

Rachel [01:49:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] I think it comes down to this toxic culture of secrets and shame and silence.

Rachel [01:49:23] Yeah. And. And even the church, fundamentally, if you aren't okay with it, puts it on you. And I want to get to that a little bit later when we talk about the essays.

John Dehlin [01:49:37] Yeah.

Rachel [01:49:37] But it's that. Do you have enough faith? You know, are you. Are you obedient enough? Because if you are, it will bring happiness. It will bring. When the reality is there are things that you cannot pray the pain away. There are. There are. You know, and we need to be able to talk about those. And breaking the silence in my family was fundamental to my healing, to my parents healing, and to the family's healing. And I can honestly say I love my family. I can honestly say I love my dad and that I have forgiven him. And that was not easy. And it took years. And I say that. And I also want to caveat that with. I know my situation is unique. And for victims of abuse out there who are listening, it. That's not required to be able to do that. That's not the. What we're aiming for. And if a huge part of it was one knowing when we shared it with the family, that everybody said nothing had ever happened to them. Because I always wondered if I was the only one. And all of them have said no. Even to this day, years later. No. Nothing ever happened.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] Because a lot of people that are silent live with a lot of shame.

Rachel [01:51:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] That they didn't speak out to protect other siblings, that. That also got abused later. That's a big burden.

Rachel [01:51:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] On people. And you didn't have to sit with that.

Rachel [01:51:19] Nope. And. But. But I. So my situation was unique where I. And over years, I really, really want to stress this was not an immediate fix, but it took me years to be Able to. To say that I loved my dad and that I forgave him. And. And I really want to stress boundaries are. I had. I still have boundaries with my. With a lot. I am very big on boundaries in my life, but it isn't, you know, it isn't something I don't want people to hear the story and say that's what they have to get to in their situation. If my dad hadn't taken ownership, if he hadn't shared it with the family, I don't think I could have gotten to where I am today. There's still. I don't know that my dad has really fully ever had to pay for what he did. But, you know, I just. I don't want people to feel like that's the only acceptable way to end a story of abuse, because it's not right. And if it's not healthy for you, cut off that relationship. Family does not have to be in your life if it is not healthy. I am in a situation, and I feel very fortunate where my family is still a healthy place for me, and it took years of a lot of hard work to get there. But if it's not for you, it's okay to cut those boundaries, even if it's family. And I want to make sure that's really clear. It's huge that I'm not setting the expectation that isn't a good situation for everybody.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] Yeah.

Rachel [01:53:02] In fact, I think my situation is very, very unique.

John Dehlin [01:53:04] Sure.

Rachel [01:53:05] In that way.

John Dehlin [01:53:06] Sure. That's important.

Rachel [01:53:09] Yeah.

How Abuse Shapes Adult Life and Relationships

John Dehlin [01:53:10] Well, we'll close with. With maybe some final reflections on that. This is also powerful. If it's. Okay, let's. I mean, what I want to cover now, if it makes sense, is what. What does carrying that abuse do as you carry that into adulthood? How does that affect. How. How does abuse affect victims as they try and become healthy young adults and adults.

Rachel [01:53:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] Because the. The effects, they ripple. They ripple forward.

Rachel [01:53:43] I don't think they ever go away.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] Yeah.

Rachel [01:53:45] No matter how much you heal. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:46] So what was your story in that regard?

Rachel [01:53:50] So in that regard.

John Dehlin [01:53:52] Oh, and by the way, I don't know if this fits your situation. I've seen it common that abuse victims start feeling like their value is in providing sexual gratification to others. And so there is this stereotype of, like a, quote, promiscuous, and I hate that term, but like a kid who has a teen then actually becomes highly sexual active, at least in part, because if they learn from their parent that that was their value.

Rachel [01:54:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] Then they. And they. And they realize that there might be power there, that might be a way to, to provide value and power to others. And that's, that's, that's one way that kids can sometimes act out. I'm not trying to get you to talk about it. I'm not, I don't know if that applies to you or if, and I'm not trying to get you to talk about that, but I just wanted to highlight that as at least one potential starting point.

Rachel [01:54:44] And I do think so. That isn't really applicable to my situation. I, if anything, clung to the church a little bit tighter and felt like I had to be better to be worthy of healing. But I do know that that can be a common response. And really if that is the response of someone, even that does not diminish your worth. And that's what I hate so much about the modesty and the purity and the virtuous culture is your worth does not change. Whether somebody did something to you, whether you made a choice to participate in something, you, your, your worth is stagnant. And, and so it, you know, that isn't part of my story. But for those where it is, I think that's okay. However, however you dealt with the shit you were given, it doesn't change who you are and what, and your worth. Because like, like I said, my brother saw my worth. And that's what we, like people just need to see the worth in another human.

John Dehlin [01:56:02] And their worth is non negotiable.

Rachel [01:56:04] Their worth is non negotiable?

John Dehlin [01:56:05] Yeah.

Rachel [01:56:06] Their worth is non negotiable.

John Dehlin [01:56:08] Yeah.

Rachel [01:56:10] And so for me, that wasn't really how it played out. If anything, for me, I got more active, more drawn into the church, more like I wanted to be worthy. I really wanted to get married and have a family and be a stay at home mom. And, and, and I, that just didn't happen early on for me.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] What do you mean?

Rachel [01:56:33] Like, I just didn't date a lot. I didn't, you know, so there was, there were feelings of maybe I'm not worthy of that. Maybe that's why it's not happening for me. And I would go through phases. I felt like I was doing really well and I stopped going to therapy and I was down in a ward at BYU and just things were bubbling up again for me and I went to my bishop and I shared with him my story and my truth. And he was another hero. Because even with him I was like, but it wasn't that bad. It's, I think I even said to him, it's not like, he raped me. Like, when I would tell my story, I would minimize what happened to me, and I would minimize and say, so I. And I remember saying to him, so I don't know why it's still bothering me. Like, I've gone through therapy. I've gone, you know, my family's all together. Like, we're working on all of this, and why is it still. And he. He, like, stopped me in my tracks and said, you know, rachel, stop. You were abused by your father. And just very blatantly said that. And I was like, yeah. But he said, don't minimize it. You're having a hard time with it because, you know, this is a hard thing. And even though you've had a lot of positives going on, like, don't minimize it. It's okay that you're still struggling with this. And it was like, gave me permission to not be perfect, to not be okay. And I was like, okay. And then he's like, I'm like, so I don't know what I need to do. And he. He strongly encouraged that I go back to therapy. This was in my early 20s. And he even encouraged that I go to a non Mormon therapist. Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:29] Another lottery.

Rachel [01:58:31] Major lottery. Major lottery.

John Dehlin [01:58:34] Another lottery win you had.

Rachel [01:58:35] Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why I feel so important for speaking my story is because I've had. I'm in a situation because I won the lottery. And a couple things. There's a lot of privilege.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] It's weird to talk about privilege because you were a victim, but just this idea of, like, most orthodox Mormon therapists are going to say, atonement, atonement, Believe in Jesus, draw close to Jesus, trust Jesus. He'll wipe it all clean. And he'll forgive you, and he'll forgive. If there's anything you've done, he'll forgive you, and he'll forgive your dad. And the blood of Jesus's atonement will wipe it all clean. Yes. Right.

Rachel [01:59:11] Yeah. So. No. And that I. I've never put it in that way, that I have privilege in my story, but I have.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] It's twisted.

Rachel [01:59:20] Immense privilege in my story. I do.

John Dehlin [01:59:23] Which is partly why you're alive and partly why you're able to tell the story.

Rachel [01:59:26] Yes. And. And very much why I feel like I need to share the story.

John Dehlin [01:59:30] Yeah.

Rachel [01:59:32] So, yeah. So I started going to therapy again. And when I went to therapy again, I was in my 20s this time. And my therapist at that time made it very clear that my previous therapist, and she told Me that my stake president were both mandatory reporters. So I don't know if at the time, if the laws have changed or if that was inaccurate. But I do know my therapist, and, you know, she said, you're over 18 now. So I'm not a mandatory, but I am happy to report this if. And I said, no, we've come a long way. You know, my family all knows. I don't. I don't want this reported at this time. But she was an amazing therapist, and she taught me a lot of healthy boundaries around sexuality, a lot of healthy sexual concepts that we just don't teach. It was. It was definitely not the same type of therapy. I would have gotten

John Dehlin [02:00:40] through.

Rachel [02:00:41] Probably a Mormon therapist. And, you know, my bishop at that time is another. Like he is. He was. He. He was immensely critical in my healing. Um, and. And this therapist was immensely critical in my healing.

John Dehlin [02:01:02] Is there a way for you to explain. So I. I don't want to come across as a hater of religion or Christianity when I say that. That the atonement doesn't fix everything. Like we're taught as Mormons to believe, that the atonement fixes everything, literally. It's the most powerful. To a Mormon, the atonement is the most powerful thing that's ever been done, probably.

Rachel [02:01:19] And a lot of people use creation atonement as therapy.

John Dehlin [02:01:23] Yeah. So can you try and explain in a way that doesn't just sound like we're being haters on Jesus or Christianity why atonement theology is not necessarily harmful and. Or can be extremely. Is not necessarily helpful and can be harmful when mixed into a therapeutic treatment, basically, for trauma.

Rachel [02:01:46] So I didn't. With my first therapist, I didn't feel like the atonement was really brought in. But I do feel like this whole concept of if you have enough faith, if you do enough right, if you're good enough, if you, you know, give everything you have that the rest will, you know, the rest will be compensated for through the atonement. You go as far as you can, and the atonement will take you the rest of the way. And when as far as you can go is still a really dark place, and the atonement doesn't pick you up and take you, then you feel,

John Dehlin [02:02:30] can't be Jesus. Me, can't be Jesus.

Rachel [02:02:32] It's me, right. I'm not doing. I'm not faithful enough. I'm not worthy for the atonement to pick me up and carry me the rest of the way. And I never really thought of it. So much as the atonement as more. I did very much feel I'm not good enough to have. To have these things that I want in my life. I'm not good enough to, to qualify for God, to give me those. I'm not good enough. I haven't done enough. I am not worthy enough to, to feel okay, to feel the spirit, to feel all of.

John Dehlin [02:03:15] Can't be God and Jesus that are failing, so it's got to be me. It really very much reminds me of the, the gay and lesbian interviewees that we've had that were taught that if they were just faithful enough their gayness would go away. And then it didn't, it didn't make them question God and Jesus because you can't question God, Jesus. So it made them feel like they're so bad that they're beyond the power of God and Jesus and that leads to suicidal ideation.

Rachel [02:03:40] Yeah, no. And, and I have, I have definitely connected and resonated with some of those interviews. At the same time I don't feel like I can claim to really truly know the despair that they have known because you know, and just everything that they hear day in and day out. But I, I do understand that feeling of I'm just not good enough, I'm not worthy. And, and what do I have to do? So I would read my scriptures more. Right. I would pray more. I took my endowments out as a young single woman because I thought if I did that and then I went every single week to the temple, I'd go on vacation and I made it a priority to go to the temple if there was a temple close enough. If I was on vacation like I. And I remember thinking, what is wrong with me when I sit in the temple and I don't feel the spirit like everybody else says they do. And I got up in my singles ward and I bore my testimony about how I did fill it. I knew what to say, I knew

John Dehlin [02:04:46] the part to play because the testimony is gained by burying it.

Rachel [02:04:49] And. But it just never, I always felt less than. I never felt like I had. Like I was good enough for those blessings. I hadn't earned them yet. So.

John Dehlin [02:05:06] And I have to just comment how twisted it is that the reward the Mormon church gets for fundamentally mishandling such a crucial event in its members lives is increased faithfulness to the church on the part of the victim.

Rachel [02:05:27] And I think the abusers and other people impacted. Yeah, because that's the fix. That's the way to fix it.

Guest [02:05:38] The house always wins.

John Dehlin [02:05:40] Exactly.

Rachel [02:05:41] Yeah. Yep. So.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] So it's actually in the church's interest to mishandle these cases in many ways. In some ways, as long as they can cover it up and keep the legal and the social liability.

Rachel [02:05:58] Yeah.

Guest [02:05:58] How come none of this shame that we're talking about is ever, like, tormenting the people who mishandle it? That, you know what we're talking about? It's like, if I was a stake president and I. I don't know, maybe you're just too conditioned to, like, serve the church, but I would. I feel like I would still know that. I was like, I could have handled such and such as case differently when they came into my office. Would they. Do they not stay at night tormented about the shame of this kind of stuff?

Rachel [02:06:24] I think some do. I sure think that's the minority.

John Dehlin [02:06:29] Yeah.

Rachel [02:06:31] But I do. I think some do. And I think about the amazing bishop I had at byu.

John Dehlin [02:06:36] Right.

Rachel [02:06:38] But I also, you know, I also think about the bishop that was the bishop during this time who came into my work six years later and said, how are you and your dad doing? That was a really unfortunate situation. And I just thought. Are you seriously bringing that up right here? I'm at work. And I do think that the fact that we only have men in those power and power position, powers that deal with this, there is. There is a sense of entitlement that comes with the patriarchy.

John Dehlin [02:07:14] Yeah.

Rachel [02:07:16] Yeah.

Guest [02:07:16] That's really shocking.

Rachel [02:07:18] Yeah.

Guest [02:07:18] Because that as somebody who's suffered through abuse, you can't bring it up unless I'm ready to talk about it kind of thing. And now that I'm an adult, it's different. But if I was any younger and somebody. I would go into a real shocking triggered place if somebody brought that up out of the blue when I'm in a public environment at work. At work, I would. I would need to take a sick day immediately.

Rachel [02:07:41] Yeah, it would. I. It was not. It was a horrible situation. I didn't care for this bishop anyway, and I just. I really, truly was just like you. Like, is this. Yeah, it was. It's highly inappropriate. But it also shows that they don't know how to handle this. We are inept to go into this

Guest [02:08:03] deeply traumatic situations to play bishop.

Rachel [02:08:06] But I also. I also think people who haven't like you have mentioned that you are also a victim to which I'm. I don't know all the details in the story, but I am sorry because I know it is hard and it's painful, but I think even for people who are women who have never had abuse happen. It's hard to really, truly understand how it feels. Like there's like, I feel a connection with you because there's like, you get it. You've been there. Right.

Guest [02:08:42] It's a deep, deep, dark secret. And to even talk about it is like. Feels like two different people. The person who kept the secret forever, and then the person who's brave enough to be like, hey, little person, we're going to talk about it now. It's okay. I'm going to give you a hug.

Rachel [02:08:59] And I think even I've. I've encountered women who I've shared my truth with, who are very loving and good people, but they don't. They kind of have this, like, I don't get why it's so hard.

Guest [02:09:12] Really.

Rachel [02:09:13] Yeah. And. And so I think when you've walked in that path and you've experienced that, there's a whole level of empathy and understanding. And I think that when you ask me what has followed me into my adulthood, one was just continuing to deal with the feelings that come up. And I've done that through a lot of therapy, and I still go to therapy when I feel like I need it. And it's not as often. And it can be different items that, you know, issues that I'm going to therapy for. But I'm a huge proponent of therapy.

John Dehlin [02:09:53] Yeah.

Rachel [02:09:56] And. And I have gone on and off for my entire adult life.

John Dehlin [02:10:01] Yeah.

Rachel [02:10:02] And so that is one way that it has trickled into my adulthood really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:10:12] I keep that thought. I want to jump right there. Kara, to circle back to your question about are there leaders? How much are the leaders even caring? How do the McConkey lawyers sleep at night? Honestly, how do all the general authorities and church administrators that have known. It's not like this stuff hasn't been known about Lavina Fielding Anderson was one of the September six. She's still alive. She's a legend. Okay. What was Lavina feeling Anderson excommunicated for? She was excommunicated for making a list of all the examples of ecclesiastical abuse, of sexual abuse, of coverups by church leaders and simply making that list. That's all she did to get excommunicated, right? Fast forward. Lavina never stopped attending church after being excommunicated. Continues attending to this day. Still considers herself a believer. Recently was petitioned by her bishop to rejoin the church. Because the bishop's like, you should be a member. You never stopped attending. 30, 40 years later, you're still faithful. Lavina petitions at the encouragement of her bishop and Stake president to church headquarters. This is just like last year or the year before. And the petition was, Was declined. And that's all she did. That's all she did was try and keep a list of the victims and of the perpetrators. It's. And so, like, how do those people live with themselves? I mean, and here's my answer, because I had a stake president that was kind, you know, before I got excommunicated for telling the truth about stuff. I had a. I had a more compassionate stake president who sat with me, who listened to me, who counseled with me and got to understand, I think, emotionally where I was and what I was trying to advocate for. And he wouldn't excommunicate me. So you know what the church did? They got rid of him and replaced him with an orthopedic surgeon who was used to sawing bones for a living because he was calloused, you know, and he, he, you know, he knew how to do hard things. And if there's a spectrum of kind of empathy, there's people who are more empathetic and people who are just less empathetic. And also the church, if you think about all the, if you think about who becomes a mission president, who becomes a bishop, who becomes a stake president, it's. It's not the school teacher often who's, like, super kind and loving. It's not the social worker or the psychologist or the marriage and family therapist. It's like the accountant. It's the lawyer, it's the businessman. It's the person who has been made to feel comfortable putting the churches, frankly, putting the church's interest first, who have demonstrated loyalty and a. A commitment to obedience and to authority over everything else. That's who ascends into the positions. That's who the church carefully grooms and, and curates to come into a position of authority.

Guest [02:13:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] And so the church, that's who is more often than not becoming an apostle, becoming a general authority. Look at them all. They're not, they're not social workers. They're attorneys and businessmen. And it's people that are used to institutions over people.

Rachel [02:13:32] And they're. They're people who have benefited from the power structure.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] The money and the power. Right. And the reputation. Right.

Rachel [02:13:39] Yeah. I don't know that they have necessarily benefited from the money, but the power.

John Dehlin [02:13:44] Sure.

Rachel [02:13:44] The social dynamic of the power. The reputation and the reputation. And I, I, I think a lot of them fundamentally believe that they are doing the right thing.

John Dehlin [02:13:53] Oh, yeah. Always.

Guest [02:13:54] Always serving God.

Rachel [02:13:56] They are. Yes.

Guest [02:13:57] Right.

Rachel [02:13:57] That they are fundamentally doing the right thing. And I think it's important to point out, and I think I've said it earlier, which is we put people in these positions with no training, with no experience on how to handle these things. And as much as that, you know, I felt the weight of don't you want to protect your family? You don't want to blow up your family financially, socially, you know, put your dad out of work, all of these other things. I think they feel that. Right. Like really fundamentally what is the best thing in this situation and it's it that will also help the victim. I think that's how they see it, you know, is by doing this, I'm, I'm helping them, I'm helping everybody involved here. And the atonement and God can make up. God and Christ can make up for the rest.

Guest [02:14:54] Right. And that toxic phrase of whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies, that can just go in the trash bin too.

Rachel [02:15:01] Yeah.

Guest [02:15:02] Like it is so toxic and harmful because obviously spirit of discernment, eh?

Rachel [02:15:08] Yeah.

Guest [02:15:08] Are people really qualified just because they're called?

Rachel [02:15:11] No.

Guest [02:15:12] No.

Good People Who Do Harmful Things

Rachel [02:15:13] And, and I think this is something too that has, that I think is important. There are good men who do bad things. Fundamentally, I think my dad is a good man. I think he royally screwed up. I'm not justifying what he did, but that doesn't define who he is completely. And I think he is overall a good man who is human. And that's the other thing that helped me in my healing is these are not. I always expected my parents to be on a level, way above humanity. Right. They're human. And I'm not saying that as an excuse. I'm almost saying that as we put these humans in situations that they're not equipped to handle, they don't have the training, they don't have the experience. Right. My stake president who made the decision to do a three month disfellowship is a good man who was put in a really tough situation. And I am not justifying that at all. But I, I feel like there's this dichotomy of they're either good or bad. And when you do that it's like, well, he's a good man. So maybe we don't go and report him to authorities because he's good. It is entirely possible and almost always true that we all have good and we all have bad. And, and so, you know, I don't want to paint out the stake president as a horrible person. He's not. He was actually a Very, very good man. Is a very good man. My dad has his own demons, I'm sure. And overall, he's a good man. And I know that can sound really messed up, and I didn't feel that way for a long time. But I think this is one of the issues that makes it hard. It's easy to get behind someone who breaks into the house and steals a child out of their room and takes them for nine months. It's easy to look at that person and say, he is a horrible, despicable human being that belongs behind bars and he is. The part of abuse that we don't talk about is. That is the exception. The vast majority of time. It is a family member. It is a relative. It is someone that is known to the family, that is loved by the family. And that makes it so complicated to address the issue because it's easy to say, this guy's nuts. Put him away. It's a lot harder. And it's more complicated 99% of the time because it's someone. I watched it with my siblings. I thought, oh, when they hear, they're gonna turn on dad. And it's. You know. And they came to me and they went to him, and they went. You know. And I was like, what are they. What are they doing? It's still their dad, and all the good that he had given them was still there. And honestly, that's one of the things I feel like we've got to talk about, is that good men and women do bad things. And it is very complicated, and it makes it harder to address the issues. If it had been a stranger or someone who the state president didn't know, I think it would have been very easy for him to call the authorities or my therapist. But it complicates it. But that's who it happens to most of the time. That's who's doing it most of the time are people that have complicated relationships with the victim, with the people around the victim. And that's what makes it so hard to talk about, because you don't want people labeling this individual a bad person. I haven't told a lot of friends in the last probably five to 10 years because I still spend time with my family. And these are newer friends that didn't know me. And I don't want them judging, like, why does she still go and see her family if you know? Because that's all they think of.

Guest [02:19:33] That's all they would think about, honestly.

Rachel [02:19:35] So I'm much more careful about who I share this with. Now because I don't want to damage how far we've come. As messed up as that sounds, it

Guest [02:19:44] doesn't sound messed up at all. And I think that's a part where I really relate to you on that as well. Because I totally get that. Because one of the reasons that I don't talk publicly about my abuse, when I had my Mormon stories with John, I kind of skimmed over it really quickly. I didn't really feel like going into it. And probably the number one reason is I don't want to have anyone have their glaring eyes into my relationship with this person. Today. As a 32 year old woman who can see everything in the context that you're explaining, there's a context of the relationship you still need, need to have with a person. And I am comfortable enough as a grown woman to know what boundaries I want to have with that person. And it would be very, very damaging to tell the wrong person. And that's why I think you're so brave to come out and say that you still love your dad. And in context, he's a good person and you're taking the good with the bad. It's very hard. It's, it's, it would be very hurtful to me if somebody judged my relationship with my abuser because they don't know me. They don't know what I've gone through, what different degrees and levels I've had to, you know, figure out what boundaries I want to put up. So that's where again, you're talking about with people who haven't experienced it. I would hope people listening to this story, they really take to heart what you just said about you still do need to see your father.

Rachel [02:21:04] Yeah.

Guest [02:21:04] And you're still wrestling with this and to not minimize how far you've come. Because that is incredible. That's, that's the space that I think is really beautiful and incredible that this can happen. But then look at the growth. Look at where you've come from there.

Rachel [02:21:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:18] And like you said that if somebody feels like they need to cut off their parents, full permission.

Rachel [02:21:22] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:21:23] Support.

Rachel [02:21:24] If my mom, no judgment. If my mom had, you know, or,

John Dehlin [02:21:29] or a supporting parent, an enabling parent.

Rachel [02:21:32] Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:32] Yeah.

Rachel [02:21:32] Like, yes. My situation was unique in that I don't think I would have gotten here without my mom. Let me rephrase that. I know I wouldn't be where I'm at today without my mom, without my brother, without the bishop that I had at byu.

John Dehlin [02:21:51] Yeah.

Rachel [02:21:52] Without all of my siblings rallying around me like I would not Be here. And I know that that is privilege, that that is not the common experience. The common experience is to keep it quiet, is to keep it silent. You don't have someone very often who says, this is not okay, and we're going to break the silence. But breaking the silence is so healing. It is. So that allowed my family to be where we're at today. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:24] Yeah.

Rachel [02:22:24] More than anything else that is allowed to heal, it has allowed me to heal.

Guest [02:22:31] You are the only person who has lived your life, who's been inside your body, inside your brain, who's seen with your own eyes, heard with your own ears what's happened. And you're the only person who's qualified to know what you should be able to say and think and feel. And that's what's cool about you being able to tell your story of everything that you just said, that you understand the privilege, that of the people who did the right thing and validated you in the best ways possible and to understand that other people don't always have that. And so that we can sit here and we can. We can. We can validate that other people make completely different decisions with their abusers and. And put that. And. And validate them, that they. They're the only people who know what's best for them. And along with, you know, a qualified therapist guiding them and helping them. And like, just like you said, if. If speaking out and breaking the silence has been the most healing thing, that is amazing for me, I don't know if I'm there yet.

Rachel [02:23:28] I don't know.

Guest [02:23:29] I don't know how much I would ever want to say, because I don't know. Because for me, I don't know if it would be the most healing thing and that you're qualified to make that decision for you.

Rachel [02:23:36] And I think what. And I'm really glad you brought that up, because I want to be really clear. It was breaking the silence in my family. It was my brother breaking the silence. I don't feel like victims have to speak out. Right. And like you said, it is very much. My home became a safe place for me immediately after my dad, my mom knew immediately that was a safe place for me. That is not true for most situations. Right. And so victims need to find that safe place and whoever that means, they have to cut off. That is absolutely. Like, I don't even feel like I should say that's justified. Your situation and your experience. You are justified to do what you need to do to be safe and to heal, and that's you know, that's what I did in my situation. And I had a lot of things on my side doing that and. Yeah, but I absolutely, I. And I don't feel like people have to. I mean, I'm doing this blurred without using my real name for a reason. Right. And that's still to provide some safety for both me and my family.

Guest [02:24:48] Yeah.

Rachel [02:24:49] And some privacy.

Guest [02:24:50] Yeah. And to people who I'm. As you're telling your story, it made me just think about anybody who is either maybe currently or in the past where their house wasn't a safe space and they weren't. They still had to live with their abuser. They still had to stay, see them every night at the dinner table, whatever it is. And that they're not even in a position to speak out. They're not even a position to say what's happened. They're not in a position to not see that person anymore. And that's just their everyday living hell that they have to go through. And between, you know, people's jobs and family security and mental stability all anyway, you cut it. It's a sucky situation. It is. It's a sucky situation. So if that's you, you have my love and my support.

Rachel [02:25:44] That, that's.

Guest [02:25:45] That there's many different forms of abuse of households and situations and, and depending

Rachel [02:25:52] on their age and their situation. And you know, because very much I was in that for two years. Right. When we say why don't people speak up? I couldn't. I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the language. I didn't have the confidence. I didn't have it, the support either. I didn't have any of that. And so there are definitely situations that, that complicate this abuse is so complicated.

What the Church Could and Should Do Differently

John Dehlin [02:26:30] There are three quick. This is so powerful. I know this is going to help so many people. There are three quick things that are coming to my mind. One is there's a lot of people that just have no idea, number one, how that this is happening in active Mormonism, in orthodox Mormonism, even amongst bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents. And that was one of the reasons I felt like this story is so important. There are people that not only have no idea how prevalent it is, they don't even know that it's happening. And I just want to, I just need to make the point that one of the main reasons why that exists, that ignorance exists is just because of this culture of silence and cover ups. It's massive. I'm talking about thousands and thousands and thousands of people, like I said, that have reached out to me. This is not some small isolated thing. Whether it's all the boy Scout abuses, tens of thousands of boy Scout abuses of young men being sexually abused in Mormonism, whether it's girls, whether it's boys, it's children and in youth settings, this is not an isolated thing. This is rampant.

Rachel [02:27:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:27:39] This is every ward, every branch, multiple people. This is bishops, high priest, group leaders, stake presidents. This is all. This is rampant. This is spotlight level. If you, if you watch the movie Spotlight and I just, I, I get flooded. Overwhelmed with how many people. When I say, hey, any of you have this experience? It's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of emails. I've talked to thousands of people who this has happened with. And so it's super prevalent. I just had to make that point. And it's the culture of silence and cover ups and Curt McConkie and legalism and good old boy patriarchy that enables all of that along with the silence.

Rachel [02:28:25] And I really want to be clear, it's not the silence on the victims, it's what you're saying, John, which is the silence of the people in power around them. Because very rarely does the victim have the power to break the silence.

John Dehlin [02:28:41] Right? Oh, yeah.

Rachel [02:28:42] And it is the people around them. I didn't have the power to break the silence.

John Dehlin [02:28:46] Yeah.

Rachel [02:28:47] My brother did.

John Dehlin [02:28:47] Yeah.

Rachel [02:28:49] Right.

John Dehlin [02:28:49] Who happened to be a male. Right. A male.

Rachel [02:28:51] And I.

John Dehlin [02:28:52] With privilege. Right.

Rachel [02:28:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:28:53] In the priesthood. With patriarchal privilege.

Rachel [02:28:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:28:56] And that's why we need allies. That's why victims need allies.

Rachel [02:28:59] And just to, to support your point, when I talk about this with my friends, I am blown away, away at how many people have experienced abuse. It is. I went to dinner with five friends and we were talking about this several years ago. Four out of the five of us.

John Dehlin [02:29:19] Yeah.

Rachel [02:29:20] Had experienced abuse or sexual assault by the time.

John Dehlin [02:29:23] It's at least one out of three,

Rachel [02:29:24] they say one for sure. But four out of the five of

John Dehlin [02:29:27] us sitting at dinner, that wasn't like an abuse victims group. No, it's just.

Rachel [02:29:32] No, it was a work dinner.

John Dehlin [02:29:34] Yeah, exactly.

Rachel [02:29:35] And it, it is, it isn't. If you think it's not happening on your street, in your family, in your work, in your ward, in your. Whatever it is.

John Dehlin [02:29:46] Yeah.

Rachel [02:29:48] Because it is. I wish my story was unique.

John Dehlin [02:29:52] Yeah.

Rachel [02:29:53] I wish I could say that it, you know, and it is unique in a lot of ways. It is unique in that it's my story and that I did have a lot of privilege associated with this. But it is not Unique in the abuse.

John Dehlin [02:30:11] It's super common.

Rachel [02:30:12] It is so common.

John Dehlin [02:30:14] And I had my first kind of recognition of this, like with the McKenna Denson story where like, he, he, you know, Joseph Bishop never got punished and he went on to like, serve in other callings. Or when I did the Lowell Robinson story with Chris, Chris Swallow, where like, the guy's about to go on a mission, church is warned, this guy's a mission president going to serve over young men. And we have multiple victims coming to the church saying, this guy you're about to send on a mission to Mexico, Lowell Robinson, he's abused several young men already. And the church, like, takes the notes, thanks them, and then he continues the mission. Or even when I've heard of people being accused of all sorts of things who get promoted in the church, not demoted, abuse perpetrators get promoted. That's when I first kind of realized this has got to be pervasive. Because how else could a system be so bold as to protect and promote the perpetrators? Not just not punish them, but promote them. It's got to be system wide. And it is.

Rachel [02:31:19] It's. It. Yeah, yeah. And it's. And it's not just the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [02:31:24] No, no, no.

Rachel [02:31:24] It's Catholicism.

John Dehlin [02:31:25] Yeah. It's. It's patriarchy, it's sports.

Rachel [02:31:28] You know, you look at Sandusky with Penn State, it's. You look at the Olympic scandal with Nasser and how many people he abused and yeah, it is, it is boys, it is girls. It is, it's just, it is a societal issue that we don't know how to talk about.

John Dehlin [02:31:48] Yeah.

Rachel [02:31:49] And we don't know how to address it.

John Dehlin [02:31:51] Yeah.

Rachel [02:31:51] And I, it baffles me that cover up is the way to do it. To me, it's almost like, hey, Penn State, if you take this and you say look and you turn them over to authorities now, you've actually promoted your image as an organization that will not tolerate this.

John Dehlin [02:32:08] Yeah.

Rachel [02:32:10] But it, it is rampant. It is absolutely rampant.

Guest [02:32:16] May I ask a question?

Rachel [02:32:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:32:18] Okay.

Guest [02:32:18] Okay.

Rachel [02:32:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:18] Wait before. Okay, go ahead. Quick here. Yeah, please.

Guest [02:32:22] Do I need to edit that?

John Dehlin [02:32:23] No, go ahead.

Guest [02:32:24] Okay. May I ask a question? So to somebody who is maybe a member of the LDS Church who's listening to that, maybe listen to your entire story, what would you like to say to stop them from sweeping this story under the rug? Because somebody could just point it out and say, well, it's everywhere. It's pervasive everywhere. Mormonism is no different. There's a few bad apples everywhere. This just happens to be you know, a small percentage within Mormonism. What would you say to that?

Advice for Victims Still Inside the Church

Rachel [02:32:52] For me, Mormonism was my. That was my life. That's my. That's my tribe. That's my culture. That's. So it matters if that's where you're. Where you live. That's. That's my scope of influence right now. And so you can fit. Like, we can't go out and fix every organization, but we can start with the ones that we're paying tithing to, that. That we go to, that we are a part of, that we are a member. That is the one you probably have the most responsibility to try and improve and say, it may happen other places, but I'm not going to let it happen in my. In my.

John Dehlin [02:33:30] Not on my watch.

Rachel [02:33:31] Not on my watch and not in my.

John Dehlin [02:33:33] My tribe.

Rachel [02:33:34] My tribe.

John Dehlin [02:33:35] Yeah.

Guest [02:33:35] What would you say to somebody if they said, well, there's not really anything we can do about it?

Rachel [02:33:41] I would say that's. I would say that is absolute. Now, if. Depends on who I'm talking to. If you're, if you're. If I am talking to people in power, I would say that is, if I am talking to a victim, I would. I would not put it on them. It is not their responsibility to fix the system. It is their responsibility to do what is best for them and look out for their healing. That is their full responsibility. But to the people in power, I would say. And I have said that's bullshit.

John Dehlin [02:34:17] Or, or to allies with privilege, to people who aren't victims, aren't necessarily part of the problem, but are in a position like your brother.

Rachel [02:34:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:27] To speak up. They have a responsibility.

Rachel [02:34:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:30] Right.

Rachel [02:34:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:31] Yeah, we. We have a responsibility.

Rachel [02:34:34] Yep. Yeah, we do. But I want to be really clear. That's not on the victims.

John Dehlin [02:34:41] Yeah.

Rachel [02:34:42] The victim's responsibility is to do whatever you need to do to be okay.

John Dehlin [02:34:46] Yeah.

Rachel [02:34:46] And to be safe and to take care of yourself.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] Yeah.

Rachel [02:34:52] Because, you know, it wasn't on me to take care of my parents. It wasn't on me. If my dad got excommunicated, that was a. That would have been a result of his actions and his choices, not of mine.

John Dehlin [02:35:02] Yeah.

Rachel [02:35:04] And. And we need to stop putting all the responsibility on victims. It's not on them. It's on. On the structure. It's on the system and the people who have power over that system.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] So that, that. I wanted to circle back to two more things before we move on to how this story continued to affect you into adulthood. One was this question of. Of involving the police because I'm sure a lot of bishops and stake presidents and spouses and children all are like, oh, it blows everything up if you involve the police. One of the main reasons to involve the police is because abuse perpetrators, especially of children, tend to repeat, offend. And if you keep it in the boys club of the priesthood holders and keep it silent and slap on the wrist, and the church doesn't want to get embarrassed by a former bishop or mission president being exposed as a perpetrator, that little boys club is designed, with Kurt McConkey's full support, to keep everything as quiet and as silent as possible. And the problem with keeping in the boys club is then perpetrators are allowed to repeat, offend, and they often do, unless there's a swift and a secure enough punishment to prohibit that from happening. And that's why it's complicated. That's why mandatory reporters exist. It's not just to have. It's not just to ensure full accountability on the part of the perpetrator for the initial set of offenses. It's to involve social services and the legal system and the law and, you know, all of the different systems that society can bring to bear to prevent future victims, to prevent recidivism or whatever the term is for repeat offense, or to even.

Rachel [02:37:01] How I mean, back to. To the earlier statement about what about the victim who's still in that home.

Guest [02:37:07] Who.

Rachel [02:37:08] It's still happening.

John Dehlin [02:37:09] Right, right.

Rachel [02:37:10] You know, that's because you could have just returned long. Right.

Guest [02:37:14] Who it was.

Rachel [02:37:14] Yeah, he. And I don't remember vividly what he said, but it stuck with me, which is you don't get to choose if you're going to contact, you know, like, you shouldn't be able to get to choose if you're going to contact authorities because you have a responsibility. Even at 14. It could have gotten worse for me. And if you have people, if you have. Or there could have been other victims, if you have other people, I mean, in the home, outside the home, it is to protect everybody. Like what we, we say we care about our children in this society, but we don't. And, and so, you know, I really encourage people to go back and listen to Matt Long because you want to talk about the power of an ally and about the power of somebody who has, who has, you know, the knowledge and the legal knowledge on this. It was so powerful that that Mormon Stories episode was. I have listened to a ton of these episodes. That one is one that absolutely stands out to me because like I said earlier, I felt once again seen and heard and like, thought, oh, my gosh, he gets it. He gets it. You don't put that on the victim. You don't ask the victim if they want it reported. That's not. Yeah, that's not on them.

John Dehlin [02:38:38] Okay. Yeah, yep. Last quick question that I want to make sure we don't leave is we were talking about atonement theology, how it fails the victim in terms of their own sense of worthiness and shame and purity and all that. What about how the atonement theology fails as it relates to the victim's feelings towards their perpetrator in terms of, like, whether you've already talked about, like, there shouldn't be this pressure to forgive.

Why Atonement Theology Can Fail Abuse Victims

Rachel [02:39:13] Right.

John Dehlin [02:39:13] But there's also this idea of it, of it being wiped clean and made all good. Like, is there ever a point where you can just go, oh, Jesus, you know, my state, my bishop and stake president have told me that my dad's forgiven, so all is good, return to normal. Like, that's not how these things often work in terms of the perpetrators just returning to normal, cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Rachel [02:39:39] Right, right. So at the time, I was definitely still a believer. And no, it doesn't. Like, there's still. That's like saying somebody who has a gunshot wound, you can say, okay, by the power of the atonement, you're healed. They're not healed. It's not okay. They're still. You still have to remove the bullet. You still have to, you know, stitch it up and there will always be a scarlet. And it.

Guest [02:40:09] It.

John Dehlin [02:40:10] You're saying for the victim.

Rachel [02:40:11] For the victim, or I'm saying for the victim. And for, like, I think about my dad and I, there's still a scar for him, you know, and the atonement, to me, the atonement. And this is me speaking now today. I don't know if I would have answered this the same way if you had talked to me when I was in my 20s. The atonement is a cop out from doing the hard work. The atonement is a cop out from taking full responsibility other than just confessing. It is a way to sweep everything under the rug and say that the atonement is taking care of it, when in reality, I am okay because of the love of my family. I am okay because of tons of therapy. I am okay because of medication and a lot of hard work and that to say that the atonement can fix the perpetrator, maybe if. If you are a spiritual faith believer in the long term, if the person lives. But for me, it is. You can't immediately play that card and then say everything's okay. You just can't because it doesn't make everything okay.

Guest [02:41:27] What would your response be to somebody maybe that are faithful lds that say, okay, well, I understand that's true in the afterlife, all things will be restored. God will make it okay. Just endure to the end, I would say.

Rachel [02:41:42] What does endure to the end mean? Does endure to the end mean stay in an abusive relationship if. If they don't change? Does it say, does endure to the end mean not set boundaries and not make sure that you're in a healthy place is Because I don't know. To me, this life matters too. And, and, and there has to be action. And even if I go back to my, My firm believing Mormonism, the. There's still action that you, as someone who has sinned, have to take to even exercise the atonement. Right. The atonement isn't a give me. It wasn't a freebie.

John Dehlin [02:42:28] It's.

Rachel [02:42:28] Yeah, there's still so much that you have to the action and the consistency and everything that you have to prove that you're worthy of it. If I'm talking about the perpetrator.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] Yeah. Like I.

Rachel [02:42:44] More than just confession.

John Dehlin [02:42:46] I said something kind of radical in my interview last week with. With Lena and S, where I said if the, if the atonement makes you. If. If your covenants make you want to die, break your covenants. Right.

Rachel [02:43:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:00] I'm going to say something else kind of radical, which is the atonement is not all powerful. The atonement is. Cannot make you un. Take. Make you ungay. The Jesus, the priesthood power can't restore a limb. There's never in the history of any. Anywhere where somebody's limb has been chopped off and it's been regrown. Anytime priesthood power worked in terms of healing, it's been with like a cold that could have been cured in another way or a misdiagnosis of cancer or they could have spontaneously. You know, there are limits to priesthood power. If it has any power at all other than placebo. And the atonement is not infinite and all powerful. The atonement doesn't make a gay person straight.

Rachel [02:43:44] No.

John Dehlin [02:43:45] And the atonement doesn't fix pedophiles or child abusers. It doesn't fix them. It doesn't cure them. It just does not. And, and it's magical thinking to think that this, whatever Jesus did or didn't do, if Jesus existed at all, whatever he did or didn't do 2000 years ago makes it so we can just go. Yep, her dad's good because the bishop and stake president said so. So like, you know, let's, let's put him back in primary. Put him in the nursery or put them in young men, put him back in the home with the, with the victims and potentially other victims. No, there needs to be like the, the repeat offense of child or teen abusers seems to be so high and the cure rate of these people seems to be so fraught and problematic. It is deeply dangerous to put this blind faith in the all encompassing power of Jesus's atonement. No, no. Whatever you think about Jesus and the atonement, fine, it's super limited and failing. Jesus and God in the atonement all fail when it comes to the, the restoration or the curing or the healing of bipolar, of, you know, of, of, of, of diabetics, you know, of, of chronic depression of PTSD and of, and of pedophilia and sexual abuse. So stop relying on the atonement where like you say, either constant vigilance and the full force and power of the legal system and of the social, social end of the, the social worker network and the child and protective services and the church and the family system, that's what's needed to prevent and to protect victims and to prevent further abuses. That's what's needed. Not some blind magical thinking. Reliance on this quote, I'll just say potentially fictitious infinite atonement that the church wants to rely upon does not fix abusers. It does not fix them.

Rachel [02:46:01] It doesn't.

John Dehlin [02:46:02] It won't.

Rachel [02:46:03] No.

John Dehlin [02:46:03] Yeah, I hope I didn't, I think I belabored that point.

Rachel [02:46:07] No, but I agree.

Guest [02:46:08] Yeah. I think that's why we do what we do at Mormon stories and why we appreciate people being able to tell their stories. Because there's people who can be complicit and say that, you know, there is this God magic that will heal all. And I understand that that gives spiritual strength and edification to a certain extent. But then to extend that, that people are safe again is so harmful that Jesus that. There's a talk once that was given that I kind of debunked on a YouTube channel by Kyle S. McKay and his entire. It was like an hour long speech at byu. The entire thing was about how the atonement changes everything. Without Jesus, nothing can get done. And I would flip it on the other side and say we have to do so much work as a society, as a church, and then if you want to have like a supernatural power that also you feel edified from. That's beautiful. That's great. But I think the scales are flipped in Mormonism about where the work needs to be done.

Rachel [02:47:04] Yeah. And. And I, I think if there is a God, they. They expect us to do the work. Right.

Guest [02:47:13] I hope so.

Rachel [02:47:14] I. That that's part of. I think why we're here is to do the work for. To make our society better, to make our. Our churches better, our families better. That isn't something you can just pray will happen. It takes actual work. It takes vulnerability. It takes education. It takes all of those things. And I, as we're talking about this, I know this seems trivial, but like the story, and I heard it in church when I was young of the floods were coming and somebody was like, you know, they said, hey, you need to leave. The floods are coming. And they said, no, God will save me. And then the flood started coming and somebody came with a boat and he said, no, it's okay. You know, God's gonna save me. And then the floods keep going and he's on his roof and they're like, yeah. And then he drowns. And he says, you didn't save me. And he's like, what do you mean? I sent all this stuff. Like, we have a responsibility to take action on our own before we can expect something to. Just like you said. And then if there's a gap after we've done everything we possibly can, then. Then if you have that faith that fills that gap, or you have, that's great. But I will tell you that if I had relied strictly on the atonement, I would not be okay today. If I didn't do therapy, I would not be okay today. If my family had relied simply on the atonement and just said, everything's going to be fine, we would not be okay today. It took a lot of tough work on. I mean, on my part, it still is work on a daily basis to be okay. I can't just say, oh, the atonement will take care of it, because I would not be where I'm at in my life today if I had only relied on that.

John Dehlin [02:49:04] And it even goes beyond the atonement because it's also reliance on, as you referred earlier, Kara, to this idea of our leaders are inspired like Mormon leaders are inspired. Mormon leaders have discernment. This will be the third radical thing I say. There is no discernment. Mormon church leaders have no. Mormon priesthood leaders have no discernment other than just guessing and whatever random instinct that any humans do or don't have. We're as subject and as prone to confirmation bias and missing things that within Mormonism, God will help you find your lost keys. But this little 8 or 12 or 14 year old girl is like living with her perpetrator and that perpetrator is getting called as bishop or stake president or celebrated. There is no, there is no Mormon priesthood discernment.

Rachel [02:49:56] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:49:56] At all. And it's, it's actually irresponsible of the Mormon Church to not disabuse every member of this long standing cultural perception that priesthood leaders have some divine connection with God so that they can protect their members and see the future. All Mormons should be put on notice that, that their leaders not only do not have discernment, any gift of discernment, but that any Mormon leader at any time could actually be a perpetrator. That's what Mormons should be taught.

Rachel [02:50:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:32] Not that Mormon church leaders have the gift, any special gift of discernment.

Rachel [02:50:36] Yep.

Guest [02:50:37] Yeah. Shout. Another good bishop I had actually in college did tell me when I thought about rejecting a calling, he actually told me that he's like, yeah, you know, I don't really have the spirit of discernment. I just thought you might like it. So every once in a while, battery,

John Dehlin [02:50:49] there's another lottery moment.

Rachel [02:50:51] Yeah. It's okay to say no.

Guest [02:50:52] Yeah, it's okay to say no. And it's okay for bishops to be like, I was just guessing, I don't really know anything. I'm a car salesman. So.

John Dehlin [02:50:59] Yeah.

Rachel [02:50:59] Yeah. But I think that goes back to again, do we the freedom to speak up. Just the fact that the culture says you can't say no to a, a calling, that there's some sort of negativity to just saying no to a calling.

Guest [02:51:20] You're not faithful enough.

Rachel [02:51:21] That takes away from your ability to set boundaries for sure. You know, I mean there's so many things in the organizational structure that just feed, feed the culture where this can be rampant. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:39] All right, well, we're leaving. No. Hopefully very few stones unturned with this.

Rachel [02:51:44] I feel like we really, but really,

John Dehlin [02:51:46] we know church headquarters listens. We know they, Kurt McConkey listens. We know they respond to what we do. So thank you Mormon Church. We'll send you a bill later for helping you clean things up. But mostly thank you to you, Rachel, because it's your vulnerability and yours, Kara, that's making all this possible. So let's let. You were going to go to kind of another area where this, this abuse that you experience kind of factored into your adult. Where do you want to take it next?

Life After Mormonism and Finding Healing

Rachel [02:52:19] So I think just kind of, you know, going through my 20s and then really starting to be honest with myself around, okay, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to. I'm still not feeling this. This is all true. This is the one and only path. And I kind of just went inactive. I wasn't angry against the church. I wasn't struggling with my inactivity. It was more just kind of like I'm taking a break and then it. That break just kind of extended. And that was kind of in my late 20s, I ended up marrying a non member.

John Dehlin [02:52:59] Really?

Rachel [02:52:59] Yes. Yep. And you know, ended up marrying never member.

John Dehlin [02:53:07] Can you talk about that decision or what led to that?

Rachel [02:53:10] By that point I. Most of the people I was dating weren't members.

John Dehlin [02:53:14] So you like graduated from. Did you go to school?

Rachel [02:53:18] I did go to school, but graduate, Yeah. I didn't get married till I was, you know, till later in life. But when I went inactive, most of the, you know, my circle kind of morphed from being all my Mormon married friends to other friends. And. And so most of the people I dated were not members or had never been members or were inactive members. And you know, and so when I met my husband, he's an amazing man. And it just, it wasn't. At that point I had been inactive long enough that it just wasn't really even an issue for me to marry outside the church. And my family was very supportive. Everybody, you know, went. It wasn't really an issue. And you know, so. And at the time I still believed, I still, I still believed in not necessarily the church, but in a higher power. I believed in God. My husband was still. He didn't really go to any church. Um, he still believed in and kind of that higher power. I really felt like once I had kids I would want to go back to something. And I didn't. When I had kids, I didn't. And actually it was when I had kids that, you know, even in like, I don't want to say my abuse was something that was always on my mind. It's not. It actually I got to a place where I was. Had a lot of peace. I still am at a place where I have a lot of peace, inner peace. But it did like when I had kids I was just like, I will keep them safe. Like it. Although I have peace, it impacts every, like how I parent conversations that I have, you know, all of that and so kind of continuing have kids Try, like, when I would say things to them about the resurrection, it just felt kind of phony to me. I couldn't. So I. My husband and I both were kind of just like, fading further away from any kind of doctrine or religion. And it didn't feel bad to me. I realized I was still raising really amazing kids, and. But then, honestly, I started learning more about the history of the church.

John Dehlin [02:55:55] Oh, wait. Can I ask you one quick question?

Rachel [02:55:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:55:57] One area where being an abuse victim really seems to spill over into adulthood is in sexual intimacy within a marriage. And I'm not asking you to disclose anything. You aren't comfortable. Feel free to just say, hey, let's not talk about that. Or, you know, that's not what I want to focus on today.

Rachel [02:56:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:20] But I do hear a lot about, like, trauma victims. Then it can become very, very difficult to have healthy sexual relationships in their marriage. Is there anything you do or don't.

Rachel [02:56:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:32] Talk about there?

Rachel [02:56:33] I definitely don't want to talk about personal. Other than, I think really going through a lot of therapy. I. I feel like I have very healthy sexual. A very healthy sexual approach, and I feel like that is through a lot of therapy

John Dehlin [02:56:54] and what type of therapy? Because there's, like, there are generalists that are like, oh, I do depression and anxiety and trauma and faith crisis, you know, And I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, you would never go to a generalist to get treated for ocd, obsessive compulsive disorder. You would never go to a generalist to treat an eating disorder. You want somebody that. Pretty much all they do is eating disorders or pretty much all they do is obsessive compulsive disorder. That's the level of. It's just like a brain surgeon. You wouldn't go to an eye doctor to get your brain surgery done.

Rachel [02:57:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:57:27] You wouldn't go to an, you know, an orthopedic surgeon to get heart surgery. You need a specialist. So I. I don't mean to stack the deck in my question.

Rachel [02:57:36] Right.

John Dehlin [02:57:36] I'm hoping that you went to rape or trauma specialists in your therapy, and maybe. Maybe you didn't. But I. I want to recommend to listeners that they don't go to a life coach for ptsd.

Rachel [02:57:49] Oh, my gosh. Don't go to.

John Dehlin [02:57:51] Don't go to a. A generalist. Go to a licensed professional who specializes in the disorder you're seeking treatment for. Yeah. So the therapy, Whatever.

Rachel [02:58:05] Yeah, the therapy I went to, I. I felt like my first therapist was very much a Generalist. And then it was when my bishop at BYU told me to go to a therapist who was not Mormon, and he recommended a name. And I don't know if she specialized in abuse and trauma, but she. It was. She just. It was a whole different kind of therapy. It was still talk therapy, but she recommended books that talked about how to deal with the trauma in your body, how to be okay with your body. And. And so there was a lot around dealing with that with her on how to. How to kind of heal that portion, which I think. And honestly, it's been a long time. I can't even remember a lot of details other than it did it. I feel like I have a healthy approach to sexuality. I feel like I have a very healthy approach with how I talk about it with my kids.

John Dehlin [02:59:06] Because of specialists and your willingness. Because of specialists and your willingness to do the work.

Rachel [02:59:10] And my willingness to do the work and my absolute commitment to giving them as much ability. And again, I know there's no guarantees, but in preventing them from being. In keeping them safe and knowing that even if I'm the one who touches you, you should tell dad. Right. And they both always look at me and go, you would. And I'm like, doesn't matter. I'm telling you. Yeah, right. Even if it was me, I don't get a pass.

John Dehlin [02:59:39] Yeah.

Rachel [02:59:40] Nobody does.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] Yeah.

Rachel [02:59:41] And. And so. But it was. Yeah. It was not just

John Dehlin [02:59:47] lds.

Rachel [02:59:48] I've never gone to, like, a sexual therapist, but I'm honestly, I feel like therapy if you have a specialist with an area that you're struggling with. I am a huge, huge, huge proponent of therapy and finding a therapist that you connect with, that, you know, you can be honest and open and vulnerable with. And sometimes that's going through a number of them before you find that.

John Dehlin [03:00:10] And that's why I've partnered with Natasha Helfer. She has symmetry solutions. She can help you find someone. There's the Mormon Mental Health association, which. Which is actually progressive and post Mormons that care more about their ethical code than they do their allegiance to the church. You know, reach out to us if you need to find a specialist. We'll do all we can to help you, but please do reach out.

Rachel [03:00:34] Yeah. So. And I never felt kind of jumping back into how it's impacted me. Right. So I got married, had kids, and honestly, what has. Let me start with where I left the church most of the time, what triggers me is how we talk about victims, how we talk about, you know, why didn't they report sooner that's the kind of stuff that always has triggered me because I get really angry that we put so much on victims when they're just trying to survive. And then. So that has played with me or been. Been a part of my, you know, following me into adulthood. And then if you go to the. The church, I really kind of went inactive, and I didn't care either way. Like, I didn't have strong feelings either way. I did get pretty emotional and invested in how they talked about LGBT Q plus members and just that whole scenario. And that always bothered me. That was a huge issue for me. That's actually one of the main things that caused me to even go inactive. When the missionaries would stop by. That was, you know, like, this is one of the things I struggle with. And why do they do this and why, you know, can't we just love people? And this suicide rate, all of that, like, that was always a big issue for me. But. But then learning more about the historical facts of the church, listening to under the Banner of. I've listened to that by John Krakauer. Yeah, under the Banner of Heaven was mind blowing to me. I, you know, went to church for all those years. I sat in seminary. I did all that. I had never been taught that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, ever. Yes, Brigham was, but I had never been taught that Joseph was a polygamist. And then the essays came out, the essays on gospel topics, the gospel topic, essays that were straight from the church. And, you know, I'd always had an issue with how we dealt with race. And I always thought, you know, if our prophets talk directly to God, why wouldn't we be leading the issue on race as opposed to a late follower? You know, So a lot of those things just didn't sit well with me. But I also just kind of felt like, ah, I. I'm not active. That's not my religion anymore. And. And while I tried to live my life in a way that aligned with my values of caring for LGBTQ and being an ally and. And, you know, caring about race issues and things like that, it just.

John Dehlin [03:03:16] The.

Rachel [03:03:16] The issue with the church never. I kind of could separate the two. Right. Like, I've left that. People know I don't believe in that anymore. And then when I read the church essays, especially the one on Joseph in Joseph Smith and practicing polygamy and how many wives he had, you know, I thought all the times I've been to Nauvoo, I always just saw him and Emma, statues of him and Emma. Him and Emma's house like it just. Why would you leave all this out? Especially when you don't leave it out with Brigham, with Brigham Young. And then the. When I read that essay and they talked about how he didn't want to practice polygamy but that an angel came with a fiery sword and commanded him to do so and if he didn't, he would be smitten. That I thought goes against everything about free agency, which is what the whole church is built on. It's, you know, it's all free agency. And so I struggled with that. And then the part of. And I actually made some notes here. The worst part of that essay was when they mentioned that he had married a girl who was almost 15, a

John Dehlin [03:04:35] few months shy of her 15th birthday.

Rachel [03:04:37] They couldn't even say 14. And it was. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph's close friends Heber C. And Veladi Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. Marriage at such a, at such an age inappropriate by today's standards, was legal in that era and some women married in their mid teens. Helen Mar Kimball spoke of her ceiling to Joseph as for eternity alone, suggesting the relationship did not involve sexual relations. After Joseph's death, Helen remarried and became an articulate defender of him and, and of plural marriage. And I was outraged.

John Dehlin [03:05:16] Can you unpack that for us? Even if you want to go back and go to certain parts because there's so much in that state.

Rachel [03:05:21] So one they couldn't say she was 14. Own it. She was 14. That bothered me. I was 14 when the abuse started with my dad. And what I know there's a lot of things I think I know and there's a lot of things I know I don't know. But I know that if there is a God, he would never have a grown man be with a 14 year old. That would never come from God ever, full stop. So I knew that. I mean like I was just like no, no. Like I can't even explain how that just was a no for me. Having had. Even if it wasn't a family member, having a man attracted to a 14 year old daughter or girl is wrong. And God would never send a fire, an angel with a fiery sword and command you that this is part of the work you need to do on this earth ever. So that enraged me. It enraged me that they justified it because I thought here is the church again justifying abuse. Joseph Smith having any type of relationship, whether it was emotional, whether it was sexual, whether it was whatever it was For a grown man in his 30s to marry someone, even if it's just spiritual at 14, is emotional abuse. I also call bullshit that it wasn't sexual. I just, I just do.

John Dehlin [03:07:06] We do this weird thing in Mormonism where like we know that every prophet and man, Mormon man, who was a polygamist after Joseph Smith and even during the time of Joseph Smith's polygamy, they were all having sex with their spouses, but somehow Brian Hales and Jim Bennet or the Fair Mormon or even the, the apologists at church headquarters in the church history department, they want to say somehow, magically, Joseph Smith, okay, he had sex with a lot of his wives, but not all of them. If they happen to be married to other men at the time, the women or if they were underage girls somehow. Clearly the prophet wouldn't stoop that low. And it just, yeah, it defies all. It's clearly complete motivated reasoning and confirmation bias, but there's nothing honest. There's no integrity. Yeah.

Rachel [03:07:52] It justifies to, to men reading this today. It gives them a justification.

John Dehlin [03:07:58] Yeah, yeah.

Rachel [03:07:59] Like, oh, well, you know, Joseph did it. And so maybe if I just have an emotional relationship with someone who's 14, even if I, you know, and then the way that you can justify things further to that, they are justifying Joseph's abuse of Helen Mark Kimball and then they put it on her and she staunchly defended him. Oh, well, if she's okay with it, then it's totally legit.

John Dehlin [03:08:27] She turned out okay.

Rachel [03:08:28] Yeah. Because she went on, she remarried and you know, she was a staunch defender

John Dehlin [03:08:32] of Joseph and she loved Joseph. So if she still loved Joseph, so it's okay. What's wrong with that idea? What's wrong with that logic that oh, if she's, if she, if she turned out well and still loved Joseph, then it must have all been Joseph didn't

Rachel [03:08:44] really want to do it. He only did it because, because of the angel who was going to kill him, which goes against the whole free agency concept of the church. Then, you know, he didn't have sex with her, so he didn't even want to marry her. But then he did. And how do you even get to the point that you're going to marry a 14 year old other than did you go tell her parents that God told you to marry her? And, and that's a whole abuse of power. If you're the prophet and you have this family who believes and then you're saying, well, God wants me to be with your, you know, marry your 14 year old it's like, it's, it's complete justification of abuse and like, how anybody can read that and not see that is beyond me.

John Dehlin [03:09:24] And spell it, spell out for our listeners, why her saying, well, Joseph was still a great guy and I'm, I'm doing well. Why is that? Why is that a problem?

Rachel [03:09:35] You're using the victim to justify the abuse. Right. You're using like, oh, well, she's, she loved him, she's happy. You know, there's so many dynamics of being a victim and there's still love.

John Dehlin [03:09:50] Your, your abuser. Yes, yes, you can be resilient AF and not die, but just because you were resilient and didn't die doesn't make it okay.

Rachel [03:10:00] I still love my dad.

John Dehlin [03:10:01] Right.

Rachel [03:10:02] I didn't for a long time.

John Dehlin [03:10:03] Yeah. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but

Rachel [03:10:05] it doesn't mean it didn't happen and it doesn't mean it wasn't abuse.

John Dehlin [03:10:08] Yeah. Right.

Rachel [03:10:09] And so them adding that is absolutely her, them justifying that she was okay with it. So we're good.

Guest [03:10:19] If they wouldn't use that logic for Warren Jeff's teenage wives don't use it for Joseph Smith.

Rachel [03:10:25] Right.

John Dehlin [03:10:25] Yeah.

Rachel [03:10:26] And while it was appropriate, you know, some people did get married that young. Actually, if you look, most people did not get married at 14 during that time.

John Dehlin [03:10:33] Not with that age to spread disparity either.

Rachel [03:10:35] No.

John Dehlin [03:10:35] Yeah.

Rachel [03:10:35] And if they did, it probably wasn't to a man in, in his 30s. So that. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:10:41] Who happened to be married to, who happened to be married to 30 other people, including other men's wives, sister pairs. And he was lying about it, both to Emma and everyone around him and to the general public. All that deception, all that Mormon secrecy. You know, Lindsay park once told me that like everything comes back to Mormon polygamy. This culture of hiding and lying and secrecy, this toxic culture that we are all facing today that then helps explain all the depression, all the suicidality, all the prescription drug abuse, all the unhealthy co on, the unhealthy coping. It was forged in the furnace of polygamy back in the Kirtland and Nauvoo time period. That's where we learned this.

Rachel [03:11:23] And I had always been taught that polygamy was, was given to the church because so many men were killed crossing the plains. Right. Coming to Utah, that there were extra women lying around, there were women who needed support, who needed that. So that's why the men married them. Like that's what I had been taught and that's why Once they were established, that's why God ended polygamy. That's what I had been taught. And I, you know, if somebody says, where were you taught that? I. I think it was partially in my home. I think it was in church. I think it was like, everywhere. Anytime that came up, and not that it came up a lot, but that's what I was taught, you know, and it was very common that Brigham Young was a polygamist. I mean, you go up to the. The lion house and they have, you know, pictures of all of his wives. Right? I mean, it's not like we ever tried to hide that Brigham was a polygamist, but the reason we did that, we were able to justify it with all these women needed support when they came across the plains and all their husbands died. Well, now I'm learning that Joseph was doing it long before, you know, all these women needed a husband because of the social dynamic of that time, that he was actually marrying women who already had husbands and was sending them on missions like I was. And then that one was 14. And that's when I was just like, I can't. Like, I struggled with that. And this is also where the gaslighting comes in, is at the end of the essay. Every essay, they say, and if you will have faith and you pray, you will also gain a testimony that this is true. So if you don't, it's because you're not worthy. They all the time, right? And I don't have the essay in front of me, but I guarantee you, at the bottom of those, they will say, if you go to the Lord, if you pray with a, you know, and you have faith. So if you don't get that answer that this is okay, then I didn't have enough faith. And there's something fundamentally wrong with me. And I knew that while I am far from perfect, that the reason I wasn't able to even read this and even somewhat justify asking in prayer if this was legit is because I knew in my heart and my gut that this is wrong. Full stop. Period. Done. There's nothing else to say about it, sexual or not sexual. It's wrong. And I know that because I lived having a grown man at 14 have interest in me, and it's wrong. There's nothing. There is nothing okay or justified in that at all. And that essay outraged me. And that is when I said, I think I want to have my name removed. I don't even want my name associated with this church anymore. And so I took the steps. I called the church. They said I had to talk to my bishop. I didn't even know my bishop. I had not ever been to this church. Called my bishop, and this was in August of 2015. And he called me back. He said, oh, you know, how can I help you? And I said, I am interested in having my name removed. Oh, can I ask why? And I went through all the things that I struggle with, the whole LGBT issues, shared that, Shared everything. And then I said, but the straw that broke the camel's back is the essay on Joseph Smith and polygamy. He did not even know what I was talking about. He had not heard of the essays. He had not read the essays. And I told him where to find him on the church's website. I said I'd be happy to email it. And that. And I shared with him that I know that this cannot be true, because as a survivor of sexual abuse at 14, there is no way God would command someone to do this. He could not get off the phone fast enough. He did not know what I was talking about. I think at that point, he thought I was crazy. He didn't want to talk to someone who was a survivor. And he said, well, I just need you to write me a letter, and I'll send it to the stake president. He may or may not reach out to you. Never heard from the state president. And got my letter in the mail probably a month, month and a half later. And I was really. Before I even called him, like, I talked to my husband, and I'd say, I really am thinking of removing my name. And he'd say, okay. And I was like, no, this is a big deal. And he, like, having never been Mormon, it was completely, completely foreign to him. He's like, you haven't been in so long. You're not married. You're not raising your kids. Why do you. You know, like, it's part of that culture that if you don't live it, you don't understand it. But he. He said, whatever. You know, I'm like, no, it's a big deal. He's like, okay, then don't do it. And I was like, no, but I want to. He's like, okay, then do it. Like, I'll support whatever you want. I just don't understand this. And so I did it. And I felt so much peace when I opened that letter. I wasn't sure how I'd respond. And I felt so much peace when I saw that letter. And I just thought, you know, I'm done. And then I was mad when the November 15 policy came out because I was wishing I hadn't removed my name so I could remove it there. But I had already done it a couple months earlier. But that was. Yeah, the essays were absolutely triggering to me. And the minimizing of the victim and the bringing the victim in as justification that she was okay with it and always loved Joseph and. And still practice polygamy in the, you know, or spoke highly of polygamy. That still triggers me. It still absolutely makes me angry.

John Dehlin [03:17:11] Yeah.

Rachel [03:17:12] So that is what caused me to leave. What still triggers me is the way we talk about victims.

John Dehlin [03:17:23] Yeah. I was going to say like that's six years ago. First of all, I'm reminded of. Was it Patrick Henry who said, I regret I only have one life to give for my country. Like I regret that I only have one resignation.

Rachel [03:17:36] Yeah, I did. I was really. I was like, oh, I haven't done this for years and years and now I want to do it twice in a four month period, five month period.

John Dehlin [03:17:45] We have to laugh sometimes.

Rachel [03:17:46] Yeah. But I did, I was like, couldn't believe when they came out with that policy too. That was another. And just as an ally, that killed me.

John Dehlin [03:17:55] I also just have to say that in addition to all the other. I loved that section about just you reviewing the gospel topic essay on Joseph Smith polygamy and the 14 year old. I know we're going to make that into a short. But one extra thing is just this idea that, that somehow humans through their emotions, through their feelings can receive divine inspiration. It seems like, oh, that's the foundation of the religious experience. That's inviolable. Nobody should ever be able to challenge that or question it. But. But no like to tell anyone that just because they have some dream or get some feelings generated by their nervous system that then somehow, whether that's experienced as an angel with a flaming sword in Joseph's case or as give me my 55th wife in Brigham Young's case or Warren Jeff's, you know, like ritually abusing young 13 or 12 year olds across the altar or your dad doesn't matter. Like this teaching that somehow what our brains generate can ever be interpreted as God's will for us.

Rachel [03:19:19] Right.

John Dehlin [03:19:20] Is a pernicious teaching, like full stop. And so the essay just by, by leaving it at Joseph had whatever spiritual experience he had. And so it's okay. Part of the problem with that is it leaves any other man or woman in Mormonism or in any other religious tradition to say, well yeah, obey the commandments and all this Stuff is good unless I get some overwhelming emotional feeling that I interpret as God or the spirit. And then, guess what? I can chop off a head or molest a 14 year old because God said so. So, like, that whole teaching that, like, we can ever discern God's will through our central nervous system is bankrupt. It's as bankrupt as the teaching that Mormon leaders have any gift of discernment or inspiration. It's as bankrupt as that because it's, it's completely fallible and our brains are just too good at deceiving and corrupting us.

Rachel [03:20:21] And it removes the responsibility from the person who's making the decision. Because I don't really want to make it. It's.

John Dehlin [03:20:26] It's the angel.

Rachel [03:20:27] It's, it's. I just feel like this is what God wants me to do. Yeah, we, we are responsible for our own lives. We are. Our decisions, whatever they are, we are 100%. Whether you made that decision because God told you to, or you think God told you to, you are still 100% responsible for that decision. And so to me, it's just a way to, like, be like, I don't have any. My responsibility's gone. I was just doing, you know, what I was told by God, and I don't. That doesn't sit well with me at all. So, yeah, that, that was what triggered, and that's what caused me to leave the church.

John Dehlin [03:21:12] And so my next question was, officially

Rachel [03:21:13] leave the church, have my name removed.

Speaking Out, Seeking Justice, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [03:21:15] So my next question was like, wow, okay, so in 2015, you get this closure, you get these resignations. By 2016, you're feeling like it's in your rearview mirror. And yet in 2011, 2021, you're reaching out to me, saying, hey, I want to tell my story.

Rachel [03:21:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:33] And, you know, there's so much about that. It takes so much courage as a victim to tell your story, especially when you feel like maybe you do have in your rearview mirror, especially when you've healed. Some would say, man, you're retraumatizing yourself to even come back and go through this. But then there's this whole other layer that's as powerful as anything in Mormonism, and that's the social pressures. You've got your parents that are going to say, how dare you betray our family? How dare you tell our secrets? How dare you shame our family? And then, like, there's the social pressure and the fear of retaliation or reprisal and just drudging it all up. And, and let's be frank, like, you know, just by using your voice and by giving a general time periods and a general area for where you live. I can just tell you we talked about this before. The Mormon world is small enough to where somebody's going to know. Oh, that's. That's Rachel and that's who this is. And that's the family. And then the Mormon network spreads for all those reasons. 99.99999 of all the victims in Mormonism, even though it's tens of thousands of victims, hundreds of thousands of victims, probably almost none want to tell their story.

Rachel [03:22:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:55] Especially when their dad has been so such a high profile, high respected member of the community. Even then they want to do it less. So what is it that that led to? You pay. Staying it, staying involved, staying connected, paying attention to Mormon stories or whatever, and then wanting to tell your story so courageously.

Rachel [03:23:17] So, yeah, there's a lot in that question. What happened, honestly, were. There were a couple things that got me sitting here today. And one was the politics in the US and the justification. I know, and I'm not going into

John Dehlin [03:23:40] the politics, make it nonpartisan.

Rachel [03:23:42] But just how people talked about victims.

John Dehlin [03:23:47] So me too, kind of. Me too.

Guest [03:23:48] Kind of the.

Rachel [03:23:49] Me too. And just how people quickly justified the Hollywood Access tape. And again, nonpartisan. I, I have family members that voted for Trump. I. It's not about that. But it was how they spoke. Oh, that's locker room talk. Oh, that's this. It was complete justification of the object. Objectification. I don't even know if I'm saying all my shuns. Right. Of women and girls or downplaying, downplaying. And, and it's like, so there's. That. There was. That. That's bothered me and all of it. Why didn't they speak up sooner? Why can't they remember details? That triggers me. Because I'm like, I'll tell you why. You know, ask the people that you know, because there are hundreds of people in your circle that could tell you why. Yeah, right. And so stop blaming victims. Stop minimizing, stop justifying abuse. Just all of it. Just all, all of that that came out during that time and then.

John Dehlin [03:24:53] And I guess it's not. I mean, Brett Kavanaugh, but even Joseph Biden had accusations of inappropriate.

Guest [03:24:58] He did.

Rachel [03:24:59] And I've struggled with that.

John Dehlin [03:25:00] And it transcends politics.

Rachel [03:25:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:25:03] It transcends religion.

Rachel [03:25:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:25:05] Yeah, yeah.

Rachel [03:25:06] There's not. I mean, Cuomo should be gone. I'm glad he's gone. I'm glad he's no longer governor. Because if I believe he did what these women say he did, and I won't justify it because of what party affiliation he is. And I get really, really angry. So the MeToo movement invigorated me and I get really. I'm losing my train of thought here because there's so many thoughts going through my head. The MeToo movement invigorated me. The, the justification, all of that, on why didn't they speak up, why didn't they do this? And the constant blaming of the victims absolutely triggers me. The fear for what that means for my kids triggers me. And this whole concept of what I call fake outrage. Right. That we care about women and children. And so we use that outrage as a society to fight against trans bathrooms, when in reality that's not a threat, but we turn a blind eye and we don't even, you know, slap people on the wrist who we know have abused kids because we know them. So it's easy to get outraged over here. But, oh, wait, it happened in my ward, it happened in my steak. But they're a good person. So if you really give a. About children, start addressing this, start holding people accountable for what happens, and stop acting like you care when it becomes somebody who's trans using the women's bathroom. Because if a man or a woman want to hurt a child, a bathroom sign is not going to stop them. And the fact is, statistically, that what happens the vast majority of the time is that, Bishop, that you're letting your child go have a conversation with about their sexual purity or the soccer coach or the. Be what, you know, the scouts or your, like, any of that, that is where the risk is. And if we're not willing to look at the facts and the statistics and actually do something to protect children,

Guest [03:27:26] like,

Rachel [03:27:26] that's what gets me so outraged. It just absolutely pisses me off. And, and then I see loving couples who are LGBT getting excommunicated for being in a committed relationship. And I think that's what you're going to choose to excommunicate from your group. But this, you gave a three month disfellowship. But good human beings who are in a loving, committed relationship are going to get excommunicated.

John Dehlin [03:27:58] Don't forget Sam Young.

Rachel [03:28:00] Yeah, Sam Young, You're. That's who you're going to excommunicate.

John Dehlin [03:28:04] Someone who's trying to protect the children.

Rachel [03:28:06] But all these people who have actually hurt a child, you're gonna do what you can to protect and then to

John Dehlin [03:28:15] hide and cover up.

Rachel [03:28:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:17] And protect.

Rachel [03:28:18] And, and that takes me to when I think it was McKenna Denson. Am I saying that right? Her story. And I listened to the tape that she recorded Joseph Bishop on, and I don't know what happened in her situation, but there is a man on that tape who admits to inappropriate conduct with people at the MTC throughout his life, admits to it, and then the church comes out with a statement. I listened to that and I was outraged. And then I listen, I. I was reading articles on it and read an article where the church came out with a statement. And basically the statement was something. I took some notes on this too, because this is the part I want to make sure I get right.

John Dehlin [03:29:09] Was this the gold standard thing?

Rachel [03:29:10] Like the gold standard? And that does not have the investigation tools available by law enforcement agencies, nor can the church substantiate for the courts. The church has great faith in the judicial system to determine the truth of these claims. Nevertheless, the church takes seriously its responsibility to hold its members accountable for their contact with respect of the laws of God and man. To that end, the church is continuing its investigation on this individual's claim, but basically says, yes, we, with its long standing policy of no tolerance for abuse. I read that at work and I went from 0 to like 150 in about 3 seconds. And I thought, bullshit, bullshit. Your long, long standing policy of no tolerance for abuse. Are you kidding me? And to the point that I got up, I left work and I called the church. I just googled the number and called and they transferred me to a couple different people. I finally got some lady who. The second question she asked me was, are you still a member? And I said, no. And she hung up on me. And then that just made me even more upset. And I called back and I finally got someone and I said, I am. You know, I was telling everybody the statement that just came out and this was what, in 2018? I want to say, yeah, 2018. And he, this person, I think it was a social worker, listened. I said, you know, when I read that, you have to understand this is bigger than this one case. This, as a victim from years ago, hit me so wrong. And he was great on the phone, said he promised that someone would call me back the next day. He appreciated me calling all of that. So I said, that would be great. Somebody does call me the next day I get a call. And I want to get this right from Dan McConkey, from Curtin McConkey. And from what I can tell on the website, he's one of the founding members of Curtin McConkey. So they didn't have like a paralegal call me. They actually had Dan call me. And he said, I understand you called. And I said, yes, I'm very upset. And he tried to kind of, you know, I'm upset with the. The comment. I, you know, gave him very brief information on my situation, and he tried to debate the merits of that particular case. I said, you don't understand. I'm not calling about this case. I am calling because the church says that it has this long standard policy, doesn't tolerate abuse. And that wasn't my situation. So then we spoke for about an hour and 45 minutes, gave him all the information on my case, told him who it was. Like, you know, questions on all of this. Throughout it, he would say, I want you to know I believe you because you're very articulate and I can tell, well educated. And I said, don't say that to victims or survivors because just because someone isn't doesn't mean they aren't telling the truth.

John Dehlin [03:32:32] No. Predators know to prey on less educated, less affluent, less socially connected people.

Rachel [03:32:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:40] Because they'll be believed less.

Rachel [03:32:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:42] So that's.

Rachel [03:32:43] So he would say things like that, like, oh, I believe you. And I was like, well, thank you for believing me. But it's not because I'm articulate or, you know, I'm. You can believe me because it's true. And so we had, you know, talked for that long, and. And finally he said, so I have to ask you, I am an attorney, and I have to ask you, are you planning on filing a suit? And I said, are you kidding me? And he goes, I have to ask. I said, do you really think that's why I'm calling? And he said, then what is the point? I said, no, I'm not going to file a suit. I said, I know my family has come too far. I'm not going to file a suit. And he said, then why are you calling? And I said, because I want you to do better. I want the church to do better. And when you send out a statement like that, you have to know that it isn't just about the one case you're making a comment on and that other survivors, other victims and survivors out there also read that, and it impacts us. And that is why I'm calling you, is because I want the church to do better. I don't want the same situation that happened to me to happen to somebody else. I want. I am calling. And he said, well, I. I appreciate that, but I just don't think it Happens that often. And I said, are you kidding me? I said, you have to know that my story is not unique, that there are tens of thousands of me out there who have had very similar situations and have survived abuse, who are currently in abusive situations. And you cannot honestly believe that I am an anomaly. Well, I, I believe there's probably, you know, more of you out there, but not thousands, man.

John Dehlin [03:34:45] We've already, through Mormon leaks, we've seen the spreadsheets of the church tracking thousands and thousands of. I mean the church just settled just this past week or two, they paid $750 million into the Boy Scout, you know, class action lawsuit. 750 million.

Rachel [03:35:03] Did they tap it? Because I thought it was 250. Did they up it to 750?

John Dehlin [03:35:07] Did I, did I get the number wrong?

Guest [03:35:08] I think the total is 750 from all of the insurance. And there's the church that only paid 250.

John Dehlin [03:35:14] Okay, let's just say hundreds of millions of dollars the church has paid. And any attorney who knows anything about settlements knows that a massive payment is an admission of guilt. In fact, they pay that money in part so they don't have to admit guilt. But the fact that the Mormon Church has paid hundreds of millions of dollars just in the Boy Scout case alone shows a massive systemic history of COVID up and of systemic abuse. And that's just boys that doesn't talk about the girls. Right. And all the different. And by the way, like you said, like he's saying to you, are you going to file? And you're like, no, no, of course not. And I'm like, yeah, you should, you should file a lawsuit. We know that less than 1 out of 100 of all actual abuse cases end up filing. And the reason why only 1 out of 100 even files is because only a 1 out of 100 lawsuits end up in a guilty verdict. So like 1 out of a thousand victims actually ends up getting justice. And so you're, you represent, you represent a thousand other victims. Just your story alone or more.

Rachel [03:36:25] Or more. But here's the thing, John. I don't want to profit off my situation.

John Dehlin [03:36:29] Yeah.

Rachel [03:36:29] And that's what I told him. I said I'm. That to me is for me at where I'm at and where my family is at. For me to file a suit just to make some money off doesn't hurt the church. It doesn't. They have enough money, whatever they want to pay me. And you know, I'm not even saying that they would, but that I'm not Interested in that. And I feel like if I ever did that, it would take away from my legitimacy. And maybe this is messed up thinking on my part, but for me to be able to sit here today and say, you know, one victims get questioned enough, I'm not in this for a dime. I wouldn't take a dime from anyone because of this situation. And I know you guys don't pay your listener or your, your participants. I'm not getting paid for this if anybody thinks I am. And I would never take a dime from the church because I want something bigger than that. I want change. I want change from the church. I want change from our society. And that is why I called the church, was to say I want change. I want you guys to actually follow through with caring about women and children. And when I say children, it is boys and it is girls. And I want, I, that is what I want more than any, any financial gain. And I feel like if I, if I, and I told them, I said I probably would, would. You might take me more serious if I told you that, yes, I'm going to file a suit, but I'm not going to file a suit. I won't file a suit. And that probably loses, you know, takes away from my power in this conversation with you. But that's not what I'm, why I'm calling. I want you to do better. And he's like, oh, we, you know, we are doing better. We have this hotline. We have this. We have. I'm like, but if you don't, if you don't hold people truly accountable for what they did and you don't involve authorities who can. And I, and I also know involving authorities is not like the easy fix. All because, you know, there's also issues in that system. But if that is, that is why I'm here today, that is why I'm sitting in this chair. That's why when you said, who has these stories and I reached out to you is because I want us to be better. I want a better and safer society for my kids. I want victims, when they speak up, for people to believe them, whether it's Trump or Joe Biden or your state president. I don't care who it is. I want people to listen. I want us to stop the fake outrage over, oh, my gosh, this person can use the bathroom. I don't care who's peeing in the stall next to me. I don't. What I care about is how we treat victims and survivors of abuse, how we talk about it. That we see them that. We acknowledge their pain, that we acknowledge what they went through. That's why I'm sharing my story. And if people are listening and they can figure out who I am, I'm okay with that. Reach out to me. Have a conversation with me. Please don't blast my family on media. Please don't blast my family in the comments. Reach out to me personally. I'll have a conversation with anybody about this. This isn't about me. This isn't about who I am. This is about what we do in our society with our most precious, which is our kids listening. On my way over to the Olympics, it's like, what is a girl worth? What is a child worth? And when are we going to actually stop saying that we care about them and actually take action to keep them safe? And that's. That's what triggered me. That's what still triggers me. I. I am. I am. Okay. You know, when we started this, I told both of you, you can ask me anything. I don't have shame in my situation anymore. There's a huge part of me that wants to be able to share my name and share my face so that people realize it happens to people that you know. But I won't do that to my family. I won't do that to my mom. I won't even do that to my dad at this point, but because it's not about that. It's about the story, and it's about what we need to do when we see this, when we know it's happening, and to understand that good people can make bad decisions, and it doesn't define them. It's a part of them. Me sitting here today doesn't make me a saint any more than what my dad did makes him a horrible person. It makes us human, having a human experience, and we just need to take care of each other better. And that's. That is what continues to bother me, continues to trigger me, and why I am willing to sit down and share my story and to tell my truth is so that we can do better. That's it.

John Dehlin [03:41:45] So powerful. So powerful. I'm just in awe and grateful and stunned and. Yeah. You know, and I just. I had another thing come to mind that I just really wanted to kind of try and express on behalf of victims. You know, I have a dear friend. This is a couple who. Who. They've been Mormon stories listeners for a long time and donors for a long time, close to their family, and they. They made the decision five, 10 years ago to raise their kids in the church, even though they knew all the problems of the church. And, and I was like, whoa, wow. And they're just like, yeah, it's a good place to raise your kids. And, you know, it's my tribe and you can be a Terrell Givens kind of Mormon and you can raise your kids, the church. And just this year, their daughter shows up on TikTok talking about her sexual abuse. And you know, these friends of our love. Love these people, these dear friends of ours raised their kids in the church knowing the problems of the church and their own daughter was sexually abused. And it just, it made me just come away with this additional sort of really harsh statement, which is, dear listeners and viewers, your children are not safe in the Mormon Church. They're just not. Because another bold thing to say is the Mormon Church cares way more about its stockpile of cash and investments. They care way more about its reputation and about protecting its good name and about keeping people in the church than they care about protecting children and youth from abuse, full stop. There's just no, there's no way to dispute that at this point. And the Mormon Church has protected tens of thousands of perpetrators at the expense of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of abuse victims over the past several decades. You go watch the movie Spotlight about the Catholic Church protecting priests and pedophiles. It is every bit as bad within the Mormon Church, just in a different way. It's not, it's, it's different, but it's just as bad. The numbers are, percentage wise, are just as awful. And, and it's, and, and I think the important part of this essay, it's not just the, the mentally ill, you know, poor man who's like remotely, tangentially, you know, predatorily seeking out victims in the occasional Mormon branch or ward. This is elders quorum presidents. This is bishops, this is stake presidents, this is stake High councilmen, this is mission presidents. This is probably even general authorities. This is Mormon priesthood leaders at every level of the church, in every ward, in every branch, and in all. And in most families. And I'm not trying to say that like it's somehow uniquely a Mormon problem, but it is the Mormon patriarchy and the Mormon wealth and the Mormon power that has created this system that has become not, not a world class gold standard at protecting victims. The Mormon Church, if it's a world class gold standard of anything, it's a world class gold standard of protecting perpetrators, silencing victims, and perpetuating the abuses across generations. That's what the Mormon Church has been gold standard world class at perpetuating. And that is what everybody needs to know. And you need to know that before you let your children, your. Your youth, your young adults step one more foot in a Mormon chapel.

Guest [03:45:52] Would you mind if I read this quote real quick? This changed my life when I was going through my faith crisis. And I think it's articulates really well what we've been talking about. When you talk about, you know, Penn State, everything that John just mentioned, it says when the culture of any organization mandates that it's more important to protect the reputation of the system and those in power than it is to protect the. The basic human dignity of the individuals who are served in that system or served by that system, you can be certain that shame is systemic, money is driving ethics, and that accountability is all but dead. This is true in corporations, nonprofits, universities, governments, faith communities, schools, families and sports programs. That's from Benet Brene Brown. Braving the Wilderness.

John Dehlin [03:46:31] Beautiful. Thank you, Kara.

Rachel [03:46:33] Yeah, spot on, too. Yeah. And I know that there's a risk of outing myself and my family, and I'm willing to take that risk if it makes a difference.

John Dehlin [03:46:45] Yeah.

Rachel [03:46:46] You know, and. And I also think my story can be one of hope. Right. That I didn't know that I would. There were times I didn't know that I could ever be happy or I would ever feel peace or that I would ever like myself. And while it's hard and it's, you know, a lot of work, you know, I feel like my story has dark places, but it has hope. It has examples of allies and people in privilege who spoke up for me, who told me I mattered. So I think there's lessons for people who are on the sidelines and just aren't either the victim or the perpetrator. And that's the whole, you know, it's a risk I'm willing to take because I don't have shame in my story anymore. And that's one thing I hope anybody listening who has been a victim at any point. There is no shame. You did not do anything wrong. I did not do anything wrong. And it is hard to get rid of that shame, but it's possible. And I don't not use my name and I'm not showing up blurry because I'm embarrassed or I have shame at all. That's not like you said. People will probably figure it out. I wasn't worried about covering up my voice, but I just want the world and our society and the church. There's still so Many people in the church that I love dearly. And I want it to be a safer, better place, as in our community. And that's. And it is. It's everywhere. And if we don't start breaking the silence, and I feel like I'm in a place of privilege and a place of my personal mental health and wellness that I can speak up. And I just have never really had a forum and I have wanted to for a long time. So thank you for that opportunity.

John Dehlin [03:48:53] Thank you. On behalf of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of victims. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you.

Rachel [03:49:03] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [03:49:04] And Kara, I know this is no picnic for you, even though you're, you know, technically getting paid. This is. So thank you, Kara, because having you here, number one, it's just, it's way better. And this is for our listeners, for our donors. Like, I am so much more comfortable doing this interview, having another woman in the room. Not just because I'm not one on one white, middle class male interviewing woman about her sexual experiences. That's. That in and of itself is problematic, but also, I haven't. I'm not a woman. I'm. I'm not an abuse victim. And just. Kara, having you here to be able to be a third person in the room, but also in your case, as a woman and as a abuse victim, it just speaks, Kara, to how grateful I am to have you as part of the Mormon Stories team and how no one, no one is going to understand how hard your job is and how grateful I am that you're here and willing to take so many bullets and bombs for this job.

Final Words of Gratitude and Encouragement

Guest [03:50:11] Thanks, John. That means a lot. And Rachel, I hope that I was able to facilitate a good environment that you were able to say what you wanted to say today.

Rachel [03:50:18] Yes, I'm grateful that you're here.

Guest [03:50:20] Thanks.

Rachel [03:50:21] Very grateful.

John Dehlin [03:50:21] So, yeah, is there anything you, you. No pressure, but is there anything you wanted to add or just thank you

Guest [03:50:29] for letting me read that quote. That's just kind of what everything comes back to for me. And I really. I know, John, you get, you know, a little bit defensive if Mormon Stories is ever called an anti Mormon podcast or. I know that we got called that this week. And if that's people's perception, that's their perception. But I just. To echo Rachel's last final words about wanting to improve the system to make it healthier. That's what I feel deeply to my core. And it's not something that I have a belief in anymore, but it's people that I care about and, and it's friends and it's family members that are raising their kids. And so that's amazing that you, you know, called up the church and needed to follow through for no other reason than just to beg the church to be one voice to say, please do better. And I hope that's what people get out of. What Mormon Stories does as well is not just to talk about the truth claims over and over again, but to beg the church and the people within it to ask for change so that the people who are served within the system that don't have to keep coming on Mormon Stories to talk about the ways that they were let down, let's say. So that's my. My final words. And yeah, and just again, thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing your story today.

Rachel [03:51:43] Yeah, thank you. I hope it's. I hope it's helped. I hope someone feels less alone.

Guest [03:51:48] I do. I had to take a quick breather, but Mormon Stories, people love it because, yeah, it's almost like free therapy. You can listen to somebody else's story, you know, So I had a lot of things going through my head as you were speaking. So even though this is my job, I had a lot on my brain today. I need to go home and decompress a little bit. So even just me, I think you telling your story actually helped a lot.

Rachel [03:52:09] So good. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:52:12] All right. And I'll just say again, thank you, Rachel. Thank you, Kara. And I'm going to cut short the final comments today and just say thanks to everyone who makes Mormon Stories possible. Those of you who do choose to donate makes it so we can have these facilities and have Kara and help tell these stories. So if you are a supporter of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation, just know that you help make this possible and you're going to help contribute to the healing and the growth for thousands of people and tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people. And hopefully this will lead to some institutional change at the church. So thanks everyone who supports us. We couldn't do it without your support. And that's all I'm going to say about that. I don't have any more promotions for today. I just feel like I want to kind of keep it simple.

Guest [03:53:11] Practice self care.

Rachel [03:53:13] Yes.

Guest [03:53:13] Be good. Be good to one another.

Rachel [03:53:16] Be kind and patient with yourself.

John Dehlin [03:53:18] Yeah. And if you need a third, get a therapist. So go to Symmetry Solutions. Natasha Helfer. Go to the Mormon Mental Health Association. If you're a BYU student, go to CAPS Counseling and Psychological Services or just reach out and. And There are so many therapists and coaches now, but in this case, we want to say licensed therapists who are experts in PTSD and sexual abuse. There are a lot of professionals out there. Get help. Get the help you need. And if you can't get the help you need, reach out. And I think there's going to be people in the community that will help you find and get the support you need or even help you get the resources that you need. And by the way, there are great shelters, like just in Cache Valley, there's a woman's shelter called CAPSA where you can go and be protected if you're in a. If you're in a situation where you need protection, there are shelters, women's shelters, children's shelters, all throughout the valley, like CAPSA in Cache Valley, that will get you safe. And these. These shelters will also are also put together as nonprofits to connect mental health resources with victims of abuse. So reach out to a local shelter like CAPSA in Call in Salt Lake City, in. In. In Cache Valley, because there are also shelters that can. Can help you and protect you. All right, Rachel, thanks so much.

Rachel [03:54:43] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:54:44] Stay in touch.

Rachel [03:54:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:54:46] We really appreciate your courage and your heroic efforts to help others.

Rachel [03:54:51] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:54:52] Thanks, Cara.

Rachel [03:54:53] Yep.

Guest [03:54:53] Thanks, everyone.

John Dehlin [03:54:54] All right, bye, everybody.

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