Welcome and Introducing Today's Guest

Margi Dehlin [00:00:02] Hi and welcome to another episode to Thrive Stories. I am your host, Margi Delin. So grateful to have you here. So grab a cup of coffee if you're listening. Head out for that walk and just kind of get ready for another story of thriving. So before we get started, we'll kick it over to my co host over there, Johndalyn. How you doing today, fella?

John Dehlin [00:00:26] Good, good. Hey. Hey, Margi. Excited to be here and welcome to Warm Stories podcast as well. And we're just so thrilled that you're willing to come and. And host. Some of these episodes focused more on the reconstruction, healing, and growth aspects of faith transition versus kind of the deconstruction part. We're so thrilled to have you. I love you and I'm always, always thrilled to be here.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:57] Thank you. I know I'm a total newbie, but happy to be here. Maybe I'll give a short intro again to Thrive Stories and the idea behind Thrive Stories, in case you're new. So the idea of Thrive Stories is a shorter interview. They tend to be around two hours or so.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:16] Yeah. And basically it's an area of thriving. So post faith transition, we do interviews around an area of particular thriving, and we tell that story. And I love it for so many reasons, but one of the reasons I love it is because I feel like it kind of pokes a hole in something that we have been taught oftentimes in condition to believe, which is, you know, if you kind of leave organized religion, that on some level your life is never the same. Which it isn't the same, but in a negative way. Right. That it's. That on some level you kind of suffer for the rest of your life, which I don't see to be true.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:00] That's not what I witnessed. So this interview series is kind of exploring what life after a faith transition looks like in a particular area. So you can nominate yourself, you can nominate someone you know, if you're interested in participating.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:18] You can pick an area. Some sample areas could be, you know, finding your own voice. It can be a healthy marriage. It can be finding spirituality again. It can be. What else, John?

John Dehlin [00:02:38] We've done mental health, we've done sexuality, physical health. Just any main domain of healing and growth that we. That you think would be useful to a lot of other people. We'd love to hear your story.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:53] Yeah, anything that's kind of common to the experience, I would say. So before we begin, I'm just gonna, like, go ahead and acknowledge the. Acknowledge something. The. The band aid. There may be a bandaid on my forehead. So I had. I went in for a doctor visit this morning, shout out to dermatology, the importance of annual SPE skin exams. So. But, yeah, vanity be damned. Like, the show must go on, and here we are. So there you go. Just acknowledge the obvious.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] Watch. Watch your language, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:33] But I'm really excited for today's episode. I'm really excited for this interview and just feel so grateful. So, without further ado, we want to welcome Dre Nord here today. Thank you for being here, Dre Robinson.

Dre's Background and Identity

Dre Robinson [00:03:48] I'm Dre Robinson now. Many Dre. So now I'm Dre Robinson. Back to the original.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:56] That's perfect.

Dre Robinson [00:03:57] Yeah. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:58] We're so grateful that you are here. Oh, welcome, welcome.

Dre Robinson [00:04:01] Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Feels good to be back. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] And it's worth mentioning that we had Dre, along with Heather Gay, y on Mormon Stories podcast a year or two ago. I called them gay. And Dre and Heather Gay, obviously, has been on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Dre has also appeared on that show.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Not as one of the featured, I guess, guests, but as a bestie to To Heather, but also as a partner, business partner with Heather. So we'll include in the show notes a reference to that amazing series that really helped a lot of people. So, Dre, it's so great to have you back.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:40] Yes, thank you.

Dre Robinson [00:04:41] Thanks. It's good to be back.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:43] Yeah. So let's just begin kind of with selected area. What area did you want to kind of explore today as part of the interview?

Growing Up with Church-Defined Gender Roles

Dre Robinson [00:04:54] Okay. So when you reached out to me about this opportunity, I mean, I think immediately I was like, I totally know what I want to talk about, and I want to talk about gender roles and being a woman, you know, specifically a Mormon woman that is no longer Mormon, and what that's like for us.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:12] Yes.

Dre Robinson [00:05:13] You know, it's been a journey, so I can imagine.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:17] And I do feel like this comes up in so many women's journeys that I see, because I think it hits that identity piece of transitioning. Who am I? What do I want? What brings me joy? What's my purpose? All of that, I feel like, can be wrapped up here.

Dre Robinson [00:05:33] Yeah, totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:35] Yeah. So I'm excited to dig in if people wanted to just kind of have a little intro to you about kind of who you are, what you love, who you love, where you live. Do you want to give a little short synopsis before we.

Dre Robinson [00:05:49] Okay, yeah, absolutely. So I'm Dre Robinson. I let's see. I grew up in Northern Virginia. I moved to Utah when I was a senior in high school school born to devout Mormon parents, the best parents ever. And I'm the oldest of four siblings, so. And I think my role as the oldest child definitely has like shaped who I am.

Dre Robinson [00:06:15] I think birth order is important and really, you know, does shape who we become. And that's a big part of my identity, is being the big sister to my three younger siblings. Yeah. And let's see, I live in Cottonwood Heights now. I have been married and divorced twice, so I am a single mom to three amazing children. I have one daughter from my first marriage and then two sons from my second marriage. So there's a bit of a break between them. I have nine years between my first and my second.

Dre Robinson [00:06:50] Yeah. And it's been great. I've loved my journey of being a mom and. Yeah, let's see, what else. I co own a business with my business partner Heather Gay. We own a med spa. It's called Beauty Lab and Laser. I'm repping Shout Out. Shout out to Beauty Lab.

Dre Robinson [00:07:10] Yeah, it's a med spa. We do skin care, injections, laser hair removal, all that kind of stuff in Murray. And having that business has changed my life for sure. And who do I love? I mean, I love all my people. I love my family, of course, my kids. I love my business partnership and friendship with Heather. It's one of the most filling relationships in my life, hands down.

Dre Robinson [00:07:37] And just all of the people that love and support me. I have an amazing village, so to speak. So. Yeah. And super passionate about mental health. I lost a brother to suicide two years ago and that also changed my life.

Dre Robinson [00:07:52] Heather and I run a foundation called the Don't Leave foundation where we treat self harm scars and track marks from drug use for free and no questions asked, no payment ever needed. And we, it's, it's a huge part of our lives and a major motivator for everything that we do. So super passionate about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:15] Yeah. Beautiful.

Dre Robinson [00:08:17] Yeah. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:18] Yeah. And I can already see so much of kind of how gender roles have sort of directed and changed and morphed and expanded for you in that introduction.

Dre Robinson [00:08:30] So thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:31] Yeah. So if we were going to start, like, should we start, I'm kind of curious about you back in Virginia then as a girl, if we were going to think about gender roles and maybe we'll speak about it as sort of what it means to be a woman. Right. Programming and I guess we have a religious layer, but we kind of have a cultural layer. I still think too.

Dre Robinson [00:08:56] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:56] That overlap, you know, as much as far as women have come.

Dre Robinson [00:09:00] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:00] I still think we've got layers here. Right.

Dre Robinson [00:09:03] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:04] And so. And familial, which oftentimes is another layer on top of religious. So if I were going to see you as a girl kind of growing up, you know, what was. What was the water you swam in, if I can say that, and what you were aware of and messaging around what it means to be a girl and what you could expect from your life.

Dre Robinson [00:09:27] Okay. I mean, I. Yes. So I think the main thing that I grew up believing and knowing for myself was what my role was as a girl in the context of the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:41] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:09:42] That was really the main framework for everything. And yes, of course, I mean, it was the 80s and 90s and, you know, there was a bit of a revolution, I think, for feminism in those days. There were more women working, that kind of thing. But, you know, of course we had the proclamation for the family and that very much solidified that, you know, the moms needed to be at home. And I had a stay at home mom and I wanted to be just like her because she was the best and funnest and coolest person I knew. So as a girl, I just wanted to be like my mom, which meant, you know, being a good mom, staying home, taking care of my kids, playing with my kids.

Dre Robinson [00:10:23] She played with us, she took us places, she, you know, made us snacks, she taught me how to cook. I mean, all of the greatest things about a mom that could ever be. That was my mom.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:36] Interesting.

Dre Robinson [00:10:37] I wanted to be that. And then I think too, on top of that, being the oldest and being a girl, I took care of my little siblings. That was just part of my job. And very much was being so caretaking pretty early. Yes. Yeah, for sure. And it was a responsibility I took on happily. I loved. I used to pretend like my little. My youngest sister who's 11 years younger than me. I used to make her call me mom when we were out running errands. I was like 16 years old. That's so weird. But like, I wanted people to think that she was mine because I wanted to be a mom so desperately.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:13] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:11:14] And there was so much value there for me. So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:20] So it sounds like from your experience, when you're thinking about your. So you have a mom who so fully embodies then. Right. This kind of church defined role of woman and mother. Right. Did you have a sense, like there's first for some women that. That fits well, right. And I. I do think it really is. Is fulfilling and it's a great match, personality wise. And did you have that sense for your mom that's. That was what it was, or in your young years, is that what you perceived?

Dre Robinson [00:11:56] It's absolutely what I perceived. I don't think. Think that that was the reality. Yeah, I think my mom was really good at doing what she was supposed to do. Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:05] And showing up in that space.

Dre Robinson [00:12:07] Yes. And I think she also came up with little ways to kind of be herself. Yeah, I really do. Like, she started teaching aerobics in our basement for the neighborhood moms. And that was actually my very first job was running the daycare in my mom's basement aerobics class. And it was like, not anything that made money. It was just kind of something that she did for the neighborhood and the ward ladies. And it was really fun and, you know, and it was exercise, and that was really important to her. And she was a runner and it was important. Now looking back, I'm like, it's. It's pretty important that I saw her doing that independent of, you know, my dad or anything else. And even though she didn't make money doing it, it was still her thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:55] That.

Dre Robinson [00:12:55] That.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:55] Yes.

Dre Robinson [00:12:56] Was just hers, you know, Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:58] Her creativity.

Dre Robinson [00:12:59] Yeah, totally. But I definitely think I. I was being sold something that maybe wasn't totally real. You know what I mean? Like, this is so great, and this is perfect, and this is everything that I'd want to do. And I agree with you. I think that there are some moms that like being home. I. I just, I have so much respect for moms that stay home with their kids because it is a lot of work. It's a lot of work and the pay is not great. You know, I have a dear friend who I've been friends with since childhood, and she has eight kids.

Dre Robinson [00:13:39] And I look at her and she just. She's thriving. Like, she's the best mom. She's totally organized. She's so cool and smart and funny and. And has these incredible children. That. That is her job, like, is managing all of these kids. And it is a joy to watch. And it is. I know she's fulfilled by it. You know, like, it's just. It's so impressive. And so definitely not saying that because maybe my mom wasn't ultimately the happiest or whatever, that that's not some people's experience. I know it is. But I think for me, you know,

Margi Dehlin [00:14:19] that was kind of the ideal. Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:14:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:22] And it also was Your experience. It sounds like you're home.

Dre Robinson [00:14:25] Totally. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:26] Yeah, sure. That makes sense.

Dre Robinson [00:14:28] And I think everything was reinforced in church too. You know, like I had little brothers. They did, you know, scouting and everything in camp and I did young women's and.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:40] Yeah. So gendered.

Dre Robinson [00:14:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:43] Programs.

Dre Robinson [00:14:43] Yeah, for sure. I mean, they were separating us out, what, from the time we were 12 on.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] So.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:50] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:14:50] And it. We did have a different curriculum than the boys did.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:53] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:14:54] And I was very aware of that.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:56] Yep. So in thinking about. I'm kind of curious on this end too, if you were going to think about gender and characteristics or some. So now we're more exploring what it means to be a girl. Right. Did you have anything, any kind of conditioning that way that you remember about. It could be around wearing dresses or what are activities you could do that are a little bit more preferred or personality traits. Right. Around pleasing or. You already mentioned kind of, you know, caregiving as being highly approved of. It's a role that's prescribed and approved of. Right. So you get like a lot of positive reinforcement around some of these behaviors around, you know, kind of what it means to be a girl. What was that like for you? Did you have a lot of that or not as much that you remember?

Dre Robinson [00:15:51] Yeah, I mean, I think there was always the undercurrent of, like, these are girl things and then these are boy things, you know, and the girl things were, you know, from. In my family, it was music. Like, I had to take piano lessons. My little brothers, didn't I? Yeah. Sang in all of the. I sang in the ward choir and I sang in choir at school and everything. And so music and. And I don't know if that was as much because that was more my mom's thing than my dad's thing. But I attribute it to being a girl. I'm a girl and so I'm musical.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:21] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:16:22] Whereas, you know, my. My brothers are boys, so they play sports and I did play softball for a little while and it was so fun, but I was never any good at it. And it wasn't really something that was like, you know, honed as far as my skills, you know, and. And that was okay. But I definitely was presented with things like, you know, academics, like, you know, I was. I was the smart one in the family and a little, you know, the well behaved and so those kind of things, I think.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:56] Well behaved?

Dre Robinson [00:16:57] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well behaved. I didn't get into trouble. I followed the rules and I was a little gentler, I think, than my brothers. And that Was I attribute it to me being a girl, you know, I have to be quiet and be nice.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:14] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:17:16] Well behaved.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:17] Yeah. Yep. Okay, so, and then with those messaging, if we kind of built it out, how did that evolve as you kind of got older, if at all? But do you remember kind of in teen years, did it expand, did it evolve at all for you? Do you have any memories of yourself as you kind of made your way through high school young women's hits? I think very much on sort of this very, let's just say, you know, gendered programming about what you, you are, you know, what your life should look like.

Dre Robinson [00:17:54] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:54] And what sort of the ideal woman looks like. And even kind of a priming for motherhood, right?

Dre Robinson [00:18:02] Oh, absolutely. I mean, just dating out the gate, like, you know, I wasn't allowed to go out with the same guy more than three times. Oh, that was a rule that we had in our family and I think a lot of responsibility for staying pure and chaste. It, I felt like it was squarely on, on me to have to make sure that, you know, if I was dating a boy, that nothing happened between us. And if it did, then I, you know, I had to end it because that was just so inappropriate. And you know, that purity, that expectation of purity and chastity, I felt to my core, for sure. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:47] So drilled in. Right.

Dre Robinson [00:18:49] And just, and the responsibility, the way that I dressed, I was really modest. I was a really good Mormon and I was very, very faithful. And so I never wanted to cross any lines. I did not want to give anyone, you know, the, the wrong idea, avoid the appearance of evil. And so I took on that responsibility as a woman that, you know, I need to keep these boys on the straight and narrow, keep their thoughts pure. And it's up to me to do that.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:17] Yeah. So, yeah. So kind of through your teen years, it sounds like a buy in, right? Oh, yeah, kind of like. Yeah. So it's on some level and not a lot of any questioning going on or you're, you're kind of feeling, this isn't resonating or where you, you, you feeling inner tension with some of the things. Did it all sort of sit well at this point?

Dre Robinson [00:19:43] Yes, I think as far as the church went, yes, I, it was total buy in. I wanted to be chaste, I wanted to be pure. I wanted to, you know, get married in the temple. I wanted to have, I mean, it was never a question of what I was going to do. I knew that I was going to become old enough, I was going to get married or go on a mission. And I did consider that, that, you know, that was part of my like, okay, well, if I'm. If I don't think I'm getting married, then maybe I'll go on a mission.

Dre Robinson [00:20:11] And so there was never any conflict with that. I think where there was conflict was in kind of some of my other aspirations. You know, for example, When I was 16, I had a pager that dates me a little bit and I really loved it. And we would do pager code. And I remember one, one month, my bill was really high and my dad said, I'm not going to pay it. So. And I'm like, well, what do I do then? And we better get a job. And I had been a nanny before and, you know, I had done some babysitting and stuff, kind of your typical after school for girls kind of thing.

Dre Robinson [00:20:50] And I was like, well, I don't make enough money doing that. And so I got a job at the gas station in Alpine. And I loved it. And I loved the independence that having my own money gave me. And that was a little scary. I think there was some dissonance there for me that I was like, oh, crap. Yeah, I really like this. And I liked, you know, going in early on Saturday mornings at 6 o' clock and opening and being in charge and I liked staying late and closing the store and, um, you know, it was that kind of stuff. I liked the independence.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:31] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:21:31] That I had.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:32] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:21:33] I had zero question about, you know, whether I was going to be a virgin on my wedding night. Like, of course I was. And of course I was going to get married in the temple. And of course I was going to be a mom. And of course I, you know, was going to do that path. But working was. I was like, oh, crap. I kind of like this. That, that would be hard for me to give up, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:53] So it like introduced you to kind of a new part of yourself, it sounds like.

Dre Robinson [00:21:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:00] And that self was a little bit different.

Dre Robinson [00:22:03] Definitely.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:04] Okay.

Dre Robinson [00:22:04] Yeah. Yeah. And I started my first business when I was 18 and it was a little vintage store in Provo on Center Street. It was really so fun. Yes. And I remember my dad just shaking his head because they had put some money in an account for us, for us kids, for college. And I asked him if I could use some of my college money to start this business. It was a girlfriend and I wanted to do this business and we kind of went the rounds about it. And I had a missionary that I was waiting for and I ended up Winning that battle. And so I took some of the money and we did this business, and it was really fun and I loved it and I was good at it.

Dre Robinson [00:22:51] And I also knew that once my missionary came home, I was probably gonna not do that business anymore and I was gonna get married. And it's kind of sad. Yeah, that's.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:03] That's such an interesting reality to just sort of have.

Dre Robinson [00:23:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:08] Where it's like, okay, well, I'll have this. This part of my life emerge and I'll love it.

Dre Robinson [00:23:14] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:14] You were still loving it.

Dre Robinson [00:23:15] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:15] And then we'll just end it, no questions asked.

Dre Robinson [00:23:17] And I was to be with this other human. Yeah, I knew that that's how it was. I knew that it. There was an expiration date on me doing a business or anything like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:28] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:23:29] 18.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:29] So it's young for a business. Do you remember where that idea kind of came from at 18? So you're working at a gas station. You know, you love this sense of independence. You have kind of your own world. There's separation from your family. Right. Where you've, like, autonomy and you're. Right. And the money. Do you remember where the idea came from? Like, I'm going to start this. This vintage store.

Dre Robinson [00:23:58] I mean, it was just like a weird conversation. I think that me and my girlfriend at the time, that we were just like, wouldn't that be fun if we did that? And I was like, yeah, that would be really fun. We should do that. And I knew I had a little bit of that college money. And it's like. I don't know. I think. I mean, I think I've just been an entrepreneur always, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:24:21] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:24:21] And I. It just. It just happened.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:24] Make things happen.

Dre Robinson [00:24:25] Yeah, it just happened.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:27] Yeah. So, okay, so you have this, this store, you create this business and. And then how does that kind of play out from there? Did the missionary come home? Did the. So we did the shop end.

Dre Robinson [00:24:42] Yeah. So we did the store for a year, and it was like the funnest, best year ever. It was so great. We lived in a little apartment above our shop and we. The store was not a huge success. It was not doing great. And so we. Then we decided that we were going to turn it into a live music venue on. On the weekends. And so we would push all of the inventory out and we would have bands come play. And it was just the best time. It was. We were resourceful. We, you know, we weren't doing. Making tons of money. And so we're like, we gotta make some more money.

Dre Robinson [00:25:15] So let's do this. And we did it. And it was really fun. And after a year, we kind of both sat down and said, okay, what do we want to do? My. She had gotten into art school, my business partner had, and my missionary was coming home. I was like, well, I think maybe, you know, our lease is up. That was really fun. We knew that this wasn't going to be forever, and so we sold off the rest of our inventory. We actually ended up paying back the little loan that I got from my, my college money and we broke even. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:48] Yeah, I love that story.

Dre Robinson [00:25:50] Yeah, it was fun.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:51] I love that idea because I think at 8, I mean, 18 or that age, this idea of you being able to explore ideas for yourself and for your life, and I feel like that is almost more the point than success. Like this idea at 18 or 19, that you're going to have one idea and it's gonna. So I really. It's like trying on identities. It feels like you did that for a minute.

Dre Robinson [00:26:16] Yeah, for sure I did. And you know what? Props and shout out to my parents. Like, I don't know that because I have an 18 year old. And if she came to me and said, mom, I want to use my college money to do this weird, you know, project or whatever that is pretty obviously not going to, you know, make me a ton of money or be my career forever, I don't know how easy it would be for me to take that leap of faith and say, sure, how about it? You know, And I'm very grateful to my parents that, and especially my dad, he had some stipulations, like he was teaching, teaching actually at BYU at the time.

Dre Robinson [00:26:51] And he said, and I wasn't going to byu. I was going, I was taking classes at uvu. And he said, you need to come audit my class. And it was in some business class. And he said, so if you're going to do this business, you need to do your classes at uvu, but then I also want you to come and audit my class. And he made me do that and I learned a ton. He was a phenomenal teacher. And I learned a lot from this class.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:16] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:27:17] And so just, I'm. I'm shocked actually, when I think about it, that they let me have that experience, you know, at 18.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:25] Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great story. So when you're thinking about kind of this gender role in. It sounds like young adulthood now, right? How did that shape what you wanted for yourself and how you made decisions at that time in life? So with regard to your education or what you studied or, you know, some of those things. Did it kind of in your young adulthood years, so kind of early 20s when you look back, where does it show up if it does?

Marriage, Motherhood, and Foregone Careers

Dre Robinson [00:28:02] Yeah. I mean, I think I just always knew that I was going to get married and be a mom. I wasn't going to have a career. It really didn't matter what I studied in school. And you know, I think when I had my store, I was, you know, doing generals really. But I called myself a business management.

Dre Robinson [00:28:22] And then I thought, well, maybe I should do teaching because, you know, it seems like the default for all of us gals. You know, if we're going to go to school, we may as well get a teaching degree, elementary ed. And so I thought about that. But I mean, in the end it didn't really actually matter because I, Yeah, I wasn't planning on having a career ever. It was never as much fun as I was having and as much as like I look at back now and I think, what was I thinking? I. That I could ever live without that.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:52] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:28:54] But I thought I could.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:56] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:28:57] So it didn't really matter. I was like, this is what women do. We, we can go to school and that'll be fun. Way to pass the time. But ultimately I'm, I need to find a husband.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:11] Yes.

Dre Robinson [00:29:11] And I was dead set on that.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:14] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:29:14] And I was okay with it.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:16] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:29:16] You know.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:17] Yeah. Do you remember if you try to connect to yourself back then, do you remember what you thought of? I mean, did you see women working who had families and do you remember what you thought about them?

Dre Robinson [00:29:30] Yes. It's so funny because one of my nanny jobs that I had was for this family in our neighborhood and me and my, one of my girlfriends, we tag teamed this, this nanny job and he was up and coming in a tech company. The dad was. And the wife also worked. And I don't remember what she did because she worked from home and we, we were her nanny for her little kids and so that she could go and she would go into her home office. And I remember her, I was just talking to that friend the other day about like, what was she doing in there?

Dre Robinson [00:30:04] She had all these papers and paying bills and we didn't ever actually know or care to know what she was doing in there. We just knew that she was working from home. And I remember thinking, gosh, like this is so sad for them that they have us taking care of the kids and that the mom is working even though she was at home still. She completely Was very, very involved with her kids. But I definitely. I felt sad.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:40] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:30:41] That mom worked, you know? Yeah, I did.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:45] Yeah. That feeling of kind of like, there's an ideal. Do you feel that way that you were taught, like, there was an ideal and what it should look like, and then anything different than that was like, maybe your love is just a little less, or maybe you're. Is that what you would say?

Dre Robinson [00:31:03] And I remember thinking, like, these guys don't have the truth. It's so sad because they were like. And now that I look back, they were so cool. They were awesome. They were a fun family that, like, they were just very awesome. And I had the best experience being their nanny. And I remember, like, having. And I think I wrote in my journal even that, like, it made me sad that this family wasn't Mormon because they were really so great, but they. How happy can they really be?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:35] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:31:36] You know, like, if they don't have the full truth.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:39] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I find this to be a really sticky area for women in particular when they are transitioning, because I feel like we're amidst that. And I'm curious if you relate to this, but I feel like you learn to sort of.

Identity Shifts After Faith Transition

Margi Dehlin [00:32:01] What would I say as the tower kind of falls around identity and what it means to be a woman, and you start kind of looking at what you want or what actually would bring you joy or, you know, what a fully embodied mother would look like. Right. I just feel like you can do that rationally. I think that reframing can come rationally where. And you believe it. Like, you can reframe that, But I think emotionally, sometimes that's a sticky area for women, where that guilt, like, it's so conditioned. It's so part of, like, just developmentally as we're growing, it's so apart that it becomes very difficult to disentangle. Is that your experience?

Dre Robinson [00:32:49] Absolutely. Absolutely. I totally relate to everything you just said. Completely. Yeah, completely. It is really sticky.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:55] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:32:56] Yeah. And it's hard to extrapolate yourself from that.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:59] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. This idea that there are many ways to be an amazing mother. There are many ways to embody sort of being a fully embodied woman with full emotional range, full characteristic. Right.

Dre Robinson [00:33:16] Yeah, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:17] A lot of different personality traits.

Dre Robinson [00:33:19] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:19] In balance. Yes.

Dre Robinson [00:33:21] Yeah. And I would say that, like, you know, in my little bundle of what it means to be a woman, you know, of course, that was influenced by the church and young women's a lot. You know, um, and then as a young adult, it was this idea that I Was going to get married. I was going to be a mom. But also like around sexuality as well. Like, that was a. No, no, hands off.

Dre Robinson [00:33:46] I don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to really. It was never nurtured for me at all. And so that was kind of something that when I did, you know, get engaged and everything, I had to like push that to the back of my mind because I was like, well, what am I even going to do? And for me it was, you know, I didn't want to seem promiscuous at all. I didn't want to seem sexual. And that was a big part of being a woman for me was being chased.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:17] That's right. And almost kind of innocent. Like, I don't know. Absolutely. I'm not sure. I have. No, absolutely.

Dre Robinson [00:34:23] So that, I mean, even before I had the experience of being, being a mother, you know, because that's its own huge thing, just being a woman. That it was a confusing thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:35] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:34:35] As a young, you know, 19, 20 year old facing that like, oh, I'm gonna have to have sex at some point. That was scary.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:44] Yeah. Yep. So would you say at that point in time, so similar point in time that your sexual self that was just like in a closed off, dark room? Absolutely. Sort of like we never go there. We don't know.

Dre Robinson [00:34:59] It's not. I'm not even acknowledged that it's there. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:02] Yes. Okay.

Dre Robinson [00:35:04] Yeah. So I was grossly unprepared to have any kind of sexual experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:10] For sure. Yeah. And for the most part, do you feel like that, I'm not going to say worked, but like you were able to do that?

Dre Robinson [00:35:18] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was. It was not hard for me to follow the rules. Yeah, yeah, it was not hard for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:25] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:35:25] I just turned it off, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:29] Yeah. And did you, would you say that on a level you found comfort in that structure then?

Dre Robinson [00:35:35] Yes. Yeah. It was the ultimate safe space because if you don't have to acknowledge it or deal with it, then you, you're safe, it's comfortable, you know. And again, I wasn't my experience. I wasn't a girl that was dating a ton or, you know, having a lot of opportunities to have sexual experiences and. But I was so devout and like, just committed to my faith that I think if I had had a lot of opportunities, I don't think I would have taken them. Yeah, I was really committed to staying pure.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:16] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:36:17] You know.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:18] Yeah. I think this is so interesting because I think on the one hand for me it feels like, you know, part of the conditioning is to be attractive though.

Dre Robinson [00:36:29] Right, right.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:30] So. So there is sort of this sense of like being pleasing for someone else to be attractive to someone else. And so on a level, like, you have to be aware of that. Yes, on a level. And sort of, I don't know, offer that in a way. And that is part of, I feel like some of the conditioning around that to be marryable. But then on another level, it's also that you actually have no connection with yourself in that way to. To offer that in relationship. This, this sensual, let's not even say sexual, but even just sensual pleasure self, let alone sexual pleasure self. So it's kind of an interesting thing because on a level it's very important.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:14] I feel like surface things within Mormonism and women, a lot of value is placed on kind of how attractive you are. And it's one of the few things, you know, other than that you, you offer, but then the substance of which, something that could really add to your joy, pleasure, connection to you. That part. No.

Dre Robinson [00:37:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:34] None of that for you.

Dre Robinson [00:37:35] No, I've actually never even like connected that. But you're so right. And how confusing. Yeah, how confusing for a developing brain to be told, yeah, you gotta be skinny. It's, you know, most important. And you have to be good looking and, you know, well put together and all these things. Why? To attract a mate.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:56] That's right.

Dre Robinson [00:37:57] You know, but then on the other hand, all of the other things that come with attracting a mate. Turn that off. That's very confusing.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:04] Very, very confusing. It is very confusing. And it kind of brings into that, you know, the bigger programming of you exist for others.

Dre Robinson [00:38:14] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:15] Right.

Dre Robinson [00:38:15] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:16] It's kind of like the important thing is that you exist for another person's needs in that way, let alone for your own needs. Not so much your own experience. Not so much just be pleasing and offer. Yeah. That other human something that they would really, really want.

Dre Robinson [00:38:32] Absolutely. Yeah. Sad.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:37] It is sad.

Dre Robinson [00:38:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:38] Yeah. Okay, so. So to kind of catch up on. On the story, it sounds like it's still kind of. You're still within the structure and not really. It's still kind of. I mean, we'll, we'll say working with quotation marks for you.

Dre Robinson [00:38:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:55] Because at some point. Right. I'm gonna guess it doesn't. There's some catalyst where it doesn't.

Dre Robinson [00:39:01] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:02] Right.

Dre Robinson [00:39:02] Yeah. And I think it really was after I got married to my first husband and we were married in the temple, you know, knew each other since I was 14 years old. It was just kind of, wow. It was the path that I just dreamed to take, and it happened for me, you know, And I do remember. So there were two things.

Dre Robinson [00:39:24] When he had gotten back from his mission and he proposed, I had been considering going on a mission, and I had that little kind of like, just gut wrench that, like, oh, I'm gonna. I'm not gonna go on a mission if I choose to get married. And I still, to this day, like, I have that kind of like, pit in my stomach when I think about giving that up. Even though I'm not Mormon anymore, I would never want to go on a mission, you know, for the church or anything, but, like, it was an experience that I thought I would really thrive in and that I would do well at.

Dre Robinson [00:40:03] And that was a big like, okay, well, if. I know, I know I've got to get married because this is my eternity and this is what I'm supposed to do. Um, but it sucks because I'm going to miss out on going on a mission and so kind of giving that up to get married, I think, was my first real, like, sacrifice. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and, you know, because we were. We were still students and we were going to uvu or. No, not uvu. SVU in Southern Virginia. We moved out there as we were both from back east, and that's where he was going before his mission.

Dre Robinson [00:40:40] And so we were still doing school, and that was really fun. And while we were engaged, and then we got married. And when we got married, that was just a huge. That was a. Like a fork in the road. Because then it was like, okay, now you're a grown up, and now you have to decide what you're going to do with your life.

Dre Robinson [00:41:06] And I wanted to do school, and I, you know, wanted to get my education, but it just didn't make sense, you know? And I think I told the story on Mormon stories with Heather. He and I. My husband at the time, he and I had the opportunity to get two different internships and, you know, was still part of school. It was when I was still thinking that I was going to school. And he got an internship with the government and I got an internship with the Smithsonian. And that was like my dream job. Like, I. My dream job still to this day, for the record, is to be curator at the Smithsonian.

Dre Robinson [00:41:46] I love museums. I love learning. It would just be a dream job. So it was to be the assistant to someone at the Smithsonian. I can't remember the details around it, but they were both unpaid internships and you know, we sat down and we talked about it and I'm like, okay, are you kidding me? Yours is not, yours is totally boring. You don't even want that internship. And this is like my dream internship. This is all that I could have ever wanted in my whole life. And now it's here and can I do this? And ultimately we decided that it made more sense for me to get a paying job and for him to do the internship because I was going to get pregnant and I was going to stay home and be with our kids and what's an internship going to actually do for me in the long run?

Dre Robinson [00:42:30] And like, I think back on that and I want to just shake my 21 year old self and just say, don't do it. You can have all of the opportunities that you want. Oh, it just breaks my heart.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:48] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:42:48] To think about.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:49] It's so interesting, isn't it, when we have those moments that are, you know, kind of looking back that now we can see where we started, that self abandonment a little bit like, and that's what I'm hearing from you is just like the loss.

Dre Robinson [00:43:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:05] You can, you can still feel it. You feel that loss for her even if at the time on some level there was still some programming going on.

Dre Robinson [00:43:14] Yes. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But I do, I feel so sad for.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:19] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:43:19] That girl that gave up such a, an opportunity, you know, and for what.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:24] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:43:25] And that, that was really tough in my, my first marriage. Because the truth is, like, you can say a lot about my first husband, but like, he really was not someone that was probably going to, you know, go to school and have this, you know, really great career and make a ton of money for our family. But he, I, and I feel for him because he was put in that

Margi Dehlin [00:43:53] box in another role.

Dre Robinson [00:43:54] Yeah. He didn't want to do that. He wanted to be a musician, which wasn't a match. He wanted to be an artist and he couldn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:01] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:44:02] You know, and I deeply feel for the men in our culture as well because there is a significant amount of pressure put on them to provide for their families. And the truth is, when I look back on it, I was much better equipped to do that, to go to school and have a career than he was any day of the week. He would have been a phenomenal stay at home dad.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:22] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:44:22] But that was not an option for us.

How the Gender Binary Affects Everyone

Margi Dehlin [00:44:24] Right. I think that's such an important point where you're looking at human beings and what they bring to the table.

Dre Robinson [00:44:29] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:30] In a partnership and saying, hey, you Know, where's the natural fit and what do you want and what would bring you joy as opposed to it all being based on role.

Dre Robinson [00:44:41] Yep. Oh, totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:43] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:44:43] Yeah. And that marriage was just kind of a nightmare. It was so hard because we were both trying to fit into these roles.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:51] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:44:52] That we were not really well equipped to be in, just as human beings, like you said.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:59] Yeah. Yes. What'd you want to say, John?

John Dehlin [00:45:03] I was just. I was gonna say we've said a few times on Mormon stories that patriarchy hurts men, too.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] But what. What we probably haven't covered enough is that the gender binary hurts men, too. And, you know, these days when we discuss gender in social media or in news, it's all about, you know, transgender individuals who are. Who are transitioning or who have transitioned. And that's kind of like the most visible, obvious rubber meets the road. You know, let's just even say for some sensational way to talk about gender and the gender binary. Are you male? Are you female? Are you transitioning from one to the other? But a really important entree into the discussion of gender is to begin with just this notion of what is gender? And I know, Mark, you wanted to cover this at the beginning. The beginning. And this is just so. So I, I. I want you to just kind of take over, But I just had to just.

Dre Robinson [00:46:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] Introduce this idea that when. When the number one gender is a social construct, it's not. There's no biological gender by. By. It's intentional that we've come up with the term sex, which is different from the term gender, because sex refers to your biological state. Gender refers to your expression. Right. How you feel inside, but also your expression.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] But with that realization that gender is a social construct, this idea that you're one or the other.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:38] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Clearly has some social advantages or benefits to say, hey, you fit in this box, Sally and Billy, you fit in this box. And certainly for, you know, the ideas of replication, you know, growing the species, making religious organizations or whatever successful, having high population counts. Maybe having a gender binary is optimal for the largest population possible.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:06] And power structures. It's also a power structure.

Dre Robinson [00:47:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:12] At hand. That's created it because it does benefit. Yeah, yeah. Certain human beings over others.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] Yeah, exactly. But what that ignores is just the idea that, like, none of us. What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be male, female? And does that mean you can't cry or you can't, you know, wear pink or you have to have a. You have to be the stay at home parent or you have to work. It's just, it's, it. If you really peel back gender, it's about much more than transitions. It's just about are there, are there, is there a way to look at how we can live that's more multi dimensional, that will allow us all to live a more healthy, meaningful, fulfilling life?

Dre Robinson [00:47:56] Absolutely. No, I totally agree. And it's like think about the first thing we ask someone when they're pregnant. Boy or girl.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:02] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:48:03] Why, why does it.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:04] Or gender reveals are a big thing as well.

Dre Robinson [00:48:07] Totally, totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:09] Or what it would mean if, if human beings came and were allowed to just sort of exist and be right without having this box kind of thing. And I love this, you know, in tying back to what you were saying, which is like that, you know, everyone's kind of hurt by it, right? That it's not just women, it's not men. And by the way, there are plenty of non binary folks. It's a spectrum. And so everyone's kind of hurt in it because it limits your human experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:40] Right. Because if what we're saying is this is what it means to be male. Right. And these things are off limits to you. But you can express anger. Here are the emotions you can express as a man. You can express anger. You can, but like vulnerability and sadness. Let's like, let's not do that. Right? Or for women, it's sort of like we love you to be just like soft. Yeah, that's right.

Dre Robinson [00:49:02] Gent.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:02] Comforting and just non aggressive and kind of keep your, your needs low, be low maintenance.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] Who benefits from that? Right. You know, who benefits from telling women to be docile and submissive as opposed

Margi Dehlin [00:49:16] to just sort of saying, well, let's be fully embodied. We're all the things. How about what's healthiest is that we're all, all the things.

Dre Robinson [00:49:24] We're all human. How about that? No masculine, no feminine. Right. All just having a little petri dish of human traits. Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:34] And it's okay if there are people that want to express masculinity or femininity too.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:38] We're not trying to.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] The idea isn't get rid of gender expression, it's to allow for a spectrum of gender expression.

Dre Robinson [00:49:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] That fits people better.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:47] That's right.

Dre Robinson [00:49:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:48] On some level it's also like, that's a similarity with feminism. The idea with feminism, you know, and I'm not talking about like, you know, certain movements, but it's ideas, choices. It's kind of like, you Know that women actually can choose and feel honored and respected whatever choice feels right and honoring for them, you know, without feeling belittled, without feeling like they're less than. Without feeling this sense of. And that's kind of. So, to me, there it. There's a kind of a similar ring.

Dre Robinson [00:50:21] Yeah. No, and I think about that, too, when I look back on that my first marriage. Like, that conversation about the internship could have been so different if we had taken our gender roles out of it. And it's like, hey, what do you like doing? What are you good at? What do you bring to the table? Rather than, what are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to show up as a man and as a woman in this marriage and relationships and family unit?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:51] So you kind of see that as a primary source of tension and kind of, on a level, conflict in what. One of the things that made it kind of just that.

Dre Robinson [00:51:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:06] So interesting still.

Dre Robinson [00:51:07] I mean, I probably need to go to therapy about this because I still feel like that again, that pit in my stomach of like.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:13] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:51:14] Oh, my gosh, it's so unfair. It's so unfair.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:17] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:51:17] You know?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:19] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:51:20] But, yes, it is what it is, and it's what happened and.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:23] Yep.

Dre Robinson [00:51:24] You know, but. And it was part of my evolution.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:26] That's right. That is so true.

Dre Robinson [00:51:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:29] It's that we don't. We don't know what we don't know.

Dre Robinson [00:51:31] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] And you both were so young. That's the other thing is that idea of partnering so young.

Dre Robinson [00:51:37] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:37] Right. Where your brains aren't even fully developed yet still, like, developing and having that partnership. Undoubtedly, there's just more there to reckon with.

Dre Robinson [00:51:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:49] Okay.

Dre Robinson [00:51:49] I know. And after that, I did get pregnant and I became a mother, and that's the other big thing that changed my life. You know, it changed me forever. And my purpose in this world would never be the same.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:09] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:52:09] After I became a mother and, you know, I definitely felt that, you know, the stakes were higher then it's like, well, there's no going back, and this is what I'm doing, and I want to do it, and I would never let anything get in the way of that. And right around that time was when I left the Mormon church. So talk about some seismic shifts.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:35] Yes, absolutely. Okay, so you have your oldest daughter. Right. And shortly thereafter, you kind of go through this huge. It sounds like a huge transition.

Dre Robinson [00:52:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] Because you built your whole life around a certain model.

Dre Robinson [00:52:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] And then. So what happens when that model completely evaporates that you based your whole life

Margi Dehlin [00:52:59] around and Is that. Is that what it felt like? Or was it like. If you were to kind of describe your experience, what did it feel like?

Dre Robinson [00:53:07] It felt like everything I knew was out from under me. And. But here I was like, oh, crap. The. Like, I've. I'm already so far down. I'm already married. I have. I was pregnant when I was transitioning out of the church. There was no going back. I've already given up the internship. I've already quit school. School. I'm like, yeah, what can I even do now?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:31] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:53:31] And it was so scary. So, so scary.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:34] And it's so vulnerable.

Dre Robinson [00:53:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:37] Right. Because of those factors. Because of the, you know, the choices that we've made for the structure to work. Right. The quitting education oftentimes. And now you're, you know, what it would mean to be single with a child, and you haven't. Well, you have. But for many. Really limited work experience, really limited education. That. But you. Do you remember that being pretty clear to you to say. Yep, leave. And.

Dre Robinson [00:54:12] Yeah. I mean, I think that it.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:14] They.

Dre Robinson [00:54:14] They coexisted. They were, in spite of each other, that, you know, idea that my life was going to completely change, you know, And I mean, yeah, I had. I could work at a gas station. Like, that was my. Or I could be a nanny. I didn't have education. Right. No. It's like, okay, well, what am I going to do? But that existed. But then I also could not deny the facts.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:37] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:54:37] You know, and the history and the things that I was learning. And I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna have to reject this and figure out what I do with this.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:48] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:54:49] And with my life and what I have going on. And it was totally hard and totally scary for a young. I was so young.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:59] Yes.

Dre Robinson [00:55:00] So young. And. And now a mom.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:02] And now a mom.

Dre Robinson [00:55:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:04] And how did the. That whole decision to leave affect your marriage?

Dre Robinson [00:55:10] So we left together.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:11] So you left together at that time.

Dre Robinson [00:55:13] Yeah. And. And at the same time, it also probably destroyed our marriage because I think we both realized. I don't know. It's hard for me to say because I don't know how much to say, because it's not 100 my story.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:29] Absolutely. I totally get that.

Dre Robinson [00:55:31] Yeah. And. But let's just say that we wanted to have different experiences once we were out of the church. Yeah. You know, and. And I. And so we just. We made a decision to part ways. And that was when my daughter was 18 months old. And so talk about a lot of life changes. You know, it was becoming A mom getting married, becoming a mom, leaving the church, and then getting divorced.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:57] Yes.

Dre Robinson [00:55:58] And being a single mom. But you know what? I was actually, like, really good at being a single mom. I was awesome at it because I loved school and I loved working.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:08] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:56:09] And it was kind of my default. Like, it wasn't the ideal, but I was out of the church now, and I'm like, well, I guess I can make this work. And I did. And I did. I worked and I went to school, I went to the U. And it took a really long time because I was a mom and I had full custody of my daughter. And. But I did it and I was. I was good at it. And again, felt like, oh, I'm only doing this because I have to.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:43] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:56:44] You know, it was. It wasn't because I was choosing to. It was like, well, I have no other options.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:48] Yes. So if you were going to talk about kind of the. The way that, let's just say church teachings or the. Weren't serving you Right. At this point, would it be kind of around education, like some of those. How the belief system, you know, affected the choices that you made? And. And would you say this was your. One of your key suffering points was right at this breaking point where you're realizing the roles you're. With this. You did all. Everything right. You did the formula Right. And then you discover. Wait a second. Would this be one of the key suffering kind of places for you, looking back?

Leaving a Marriage and Starting Over

Dre Robinson [00:57:33] Yeah, definitely. Because. Yeah. Because I had followed the path that was laid out for me and it put me in a really bad position.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:57:45] As a single mom.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:46] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:57:47] It just did. Because again, I didn't. I, you know, I didn't go for it with my education. I didn't pursue a career or anything really substantial that I could build a career on.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:57] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:57:59] And I harbored a lot of resentment towards the church for a long time. I was pretty angry.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:05] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:58:06] You know, because I felt really set up.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:09] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:58:10] And I. I felt like it was unfair.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:12] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:58:12] And why did no one prepare me for the possibility? And even if I had stayed in the church, that's the thing. It's like, we don't have any guarantees in our life. You can lose a spouse, you can get a divorce. You can, you know, have someone become, you know, sick or whatever. And, like, why was I not prepared to take care of myself?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:35] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:58:36] I didn't understand how. How I could have gotten there, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:41] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [00:58:42] So.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:43] Yeah. By doing everything right. By being obedient. Yeah. Right. By doing what was asked of You.

Dre Robinson [00:58:49] Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:52] Yeah. So, yeah. At this point, are you feeling like. I'm curious, because I have a question around what it meant for you to kind of let go of some of these beliefs? For some people, depending on what we're talking about, there's a lot of loss.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:12] And I. I do hear that in what you're saying, because I think anger is oftentimes a part of grief, too. You know, how did I end up here? How did I get here? This kind of reckoning of the moment. Did you have a sense during this time of grief and loss for who you could have been, or a sense of betrayal or.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:37] Or did it come up more as now you're feeling actually free from the box, and now you just are grappling with kind of the reality. But now you have a bunch of resources, too, and opportunities that were once off the table. Like, how did that play out for you? What were you feeling? Was it mixed? Was it all that? Was it?

Dre Robinson [00:59:56] Yeah. So that's a really good question. And when you first said that, I mean, I definitely feel. I know exactly what you're talking about. That sense of grief and loss, I. I feel like I probably processed that a little bit later in my journey.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:09] Okay.

Dre Robinson [01:00:09] I think I was just kind of in survival mode.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:12] That makes sense.

Dre Robinson [01:00:12] You know, and. And I did. I was free, and I was doing stuff that I actually liked, and. And I maybe felt a little bit of guilt about that. And one of the things that Heather and I talked about when we were on Mormon stories was when I met Heather was when I was going to school, and our daughters were in kindergarten together. And. And, you know, she was kind of queen of the moms, Queen of the PTA moms. Her husband was rich, and she didn't work, and she had these three beautiful girls, and she lived right by the school, and they would walk to school every day, and she'd push her stroller, and I knew exactly who she was.

Dre Robinson [01:00:48] I knew who all the moms were, and they were all a little bit older than me and established. And then here I was in my waitressing uniform, you know, dropping off my daughter every day. And I knew that we were different. Like, it was very clear that I was not a part of that mom group, even though we all had kids the same age and they were in the same class, and, you know, we went on the same field trips together and stuff, and there's, like, a divide. Yeah. And Heather was always great to look out for Elsha, and. Because she knew I worked and.

Dre Robinson [01:01:21] And she would send me pictures from the field trips that I couldn't go on because I was working or I had class or whatever, and. And it was really nice, but there it was. I mean, I knew that I wasn't one of them, and. But I think I justified it and thought, well, it's okay because I'm here because I have to be here. Like, this wasn't my choice. I'm here because I'm divorced, because I'm a single mom, because I have to get my education, because I don't know what's going to happen to me and my daughter. And so I don't think I process that grief as much until I had my second round of being a mom.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:57] Okay.

Dre Robinson [01:01:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:59] And at this point, did you have a sense. Were you already both deconstructing your beliefs around gender roles as you became the primary, you know, earner and kind of in. In your little family? Or do you feel like that came later? Like, did you have a sense that things were shifting inside of you? Of just sort of like this. This can be actually ideal, amazing in its own way, because you're, like, giving birth to a new you, and your daughter is experiencing a mom in a way that, for me, I mean, I think is amazing. But, like, what was your sense of you at that time, looking at you?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:45] Was it the old programming kind of judging, like, this isn't. I have to do this and this isn't ideal, and I'll get back to that really soon, that ideal soon, or were you at that point kind of saying, I feel unseen, first of all, by this group of. Of women who are, you know, in this world, you know, bubble kind of. But I also know that what I'm doing is great. Like, really amazing mothering, too.

Dre Robinson [01:03:12] Yeah. No, I was not there yet for sure. I. I think I'm there now.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:17] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:03:18] But at the time, I. I kind of felt bad, like, for El Chef, for my daughter, and that, you know, I don't get to go on all the field trips and, you know, that kind of sucks like, that. It's not that way for me. And I think there was definitely some shame for sure that, like, I was this working mom and that I was going to school. And I think I was pretty clear that, like, my ideal was to be one of those moms eventually. But I was smart enough to know that I couldn't bank on that. And so I wanted to have a backup plan. I wanted to get my education. I wanted to have a career for myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:57] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:03:57] In case I never Got married again. Because I knew that that was a real potential.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:00] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:04:01] You know. Yeah, I did. I knew I wasn't Mormon. Had this child, you know, it was a lot. And so I was like, I don't know that any guy's going to take this on, but hopefully I will meet someone. And. But that was. I mean, it was still my plan. To get married again.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:19] Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:04:19] And be a stay at home mom.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:21] And to be a stay at home.

Dre Robinson [01:04:22] That's the funniest part of it.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:24] Even though while you're working, it sounds like all. All the time. Is that right? You're working a great deal.

Dre Robinson [01:04:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:31] At this part. Point of life. Yeah. And. But you're still kind of conceptualizing, even though you have seen these parts of yourself.

Dre Robinson [01:04:40] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:40] With work and enjoying work and enjoying some of those things, you're still sort of connected to. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:04:46] And. And it's so funny because I look back on that and I think of, you know, for example, when I graduated with my bachelor's, I was so proud.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:56] So tell us about that. At what point did you graduate with your bachelor's?

Dre Robinson [01:05:00] So I graduated in. I GUESS it was 2008. So I had. So it took me five years to get my bachelor's, but fine.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:13] Well, you were doing a lot. It sounds like you were. You had quite a bit going on.

Dre Robinson [01:05:17] Yes, yes. And it was slow going. And it. You know, I. I did it.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:20] The pace. That's. It's amazing, Dre.

Dre Robinson [01:05:22] But I loved it. And it was. I totally enjoyed school so much. It was the greatest adventure. And I was so proud. I was the first person in my family to graduate. I, you know, of all my siblings, and. And I was a girl.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:39] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:05:40] And I was like, this is. I did have. I was feeling myself for sure. I. I had a sense of, like, this is kind of cool that. That is when I did this, you know, And I remember my parents being so proud of me and. And having that idea that, like, okay, I can maybe take care of us now. Like, I can maybe do this if I never get married again. I. I think I could do this. And. Wow. It was a really. It was a huge victory. I was really proud of myself for that.

Education as a Path to Independence

Margi Dehlin [01:06:14] So it sounds like that education piece offered you something unique.

Dre Robinson [01:06:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:19] Yes. And what did you study? Do you mind my asking?

Dre Robinson [01:06:22] Yeah. No, not at all. I studied history. Middle Eastern history with a minor in Arabic. Totally weird.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:27] So look at you go.

Dre Robinson [01:06:30] Yeah, well. And I thought that I would move back east. I thought I'd move back to D.C. and maybe work for the CIA or something. And oh my God, this was, of course, post 9 11. And so there was a need for Arabic speakers. And so that, that was kind of my plan. I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this. And. And I loved it. It was really fun. And then I met a guy.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:53] Right.

Dre Robinson [01:06:53] I met a guy.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:54] So I love that you also loved it.

Dre Robinson [01:06:57] I loved it. Like, I would go back in a heartbeat.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:00] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:07:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:01] Wow.

Dre Robinson [01:07:01] Yeah. When there's time, I'm gonna go back for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:04] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:07:04] Study something else. I just, I love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:06] It's so interesting. So, okay, so you kind of. You are able to finish school, single mom, all the things that. Because you're doing all the things.

Dre Robinson [01:07:17] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:18] As a single. The work of a village and two parents and. Yes. For one human. And then you meet someone.

Dre Robinson [01:07:27] Yeah. And this is my second husband. And he was just a knight in shining armor. He was so great. And, you know, I think I was tired and I had been working for all of these years and finally got.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:43] How many years had it been? Just so I can.

Dre Robinson [01:07:46] So I was single for eight years. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:50] So working just really, really hard. Doing full time home stuff as well?

Dre Robinson [01:07:55] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:56] In the after hours.

Dre Robinson [01:07:57] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:58] Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:07:58] Yeah. And I was waiting tables and so I could make that work with my schedule because it was good money. I worked in Park City and it was just a lunch shift or a dinner shift, you know, and so, like, I would schedule classes in between my shifts and everything, but it was work on my feet and late hours and, and the drive and everything. So it was, it was a tiring. I was tired.

Dre Robinson [01:08:21] And My daughter was 8 and, you know, she, you know, she was getting older and she wanted siblings and I wanted siblings for her. And. Yeah. And I met my second husband and he was on board. He was willing to take us on and he was very into traditional gender roles. He was like, I want to work, I want to make the money for this family, and I want you to stay home and, and take care of our kids. And that sounded like an absolute dream.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:53] Yes, I bet it really, after the eight years, you're thinking, absolute dream.

Dre Robinson [01:08:58] I'm like, oh, someone's going to take this burden off of me. And now I can get back to, you know, doing the stuff that I should be doing.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:05] Oh, the should?

Dre Robinson [01:09:06] Yeah, like, you know, volunteering in the school class and going on the field trips and.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:12] And was part of you, like, now that group? Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:09:15] Oh, it was like, this is my in. Yeah, for sure. This is my in. And, you know, and Again, I look back on myself and I think, what was I thinking? Like, did I not know myself that I am someone that, like, has to be busy doing something, creating something, working on a project, like learning something? It is just who I am. Yeah. But I did not want to acknowledge that at all.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:42] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:09:42] I just wanted to be a good mom. I really did. And I wanted to be a good wife and prove that I could be a good wife.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:49] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:09:49] You know, I wanted that embarrassment of my initial divorce to be gone, and I wanted to just create this life.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:56] Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:09:57] You know, and I fell back hard into traditional gender role.

John Dehlin [01:10:02] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:10:03] Hard.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:04] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:10:04] And it fit like a glove.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:06] You know, I feel like it just, you know, when you're talking about eight years and all that happened in that eight years, it makes. It makes total sense how exhausted you felt, you know, on a level. And this sense of two. I think those default settings that we kind of talk about where, let's just say our conditioning comes in, they oftentimes come in most strongly when we're tired or when we're feeling hurt or when we are, you know, on some level, are kind of low in our resources. That's when oftentimes that default, I'm just saying around, you know, traditional family, what does it look like?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:52] This is what I grew up with. This is what it, you know, and where it would. You know, I just find there are times even in my own life where that train that you hop on of conditioning, there are times when, you know, just like you talk about, you have moments of exploration and then you meet someone and all of a sudden you're on the train and you're like, oh, this is what it looks like. And before you know it, you're like on the track headed toward. And that's what it reminds me of is it's just like you're exhausted, there's a train going by. And I'm sure your second husband was amazing as well in his own way, but it's not surprising that, like, you're.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:27] That sense of self knowledge or this, this, like, wise sort of that we can so look back on, you know, didn't show up then, and before you know it, you're on another track and you're heading down the. You know. Yeah, that is how it works.

Dre Robinson [01:11:43] Yes. And it's what felt familiar and comfortable to me completely. It was like putting on a pair of slippers that you've had for years and years and years. You know, it just fits. And I think this is truly when I had my, like, what I Call. My feminist awakening was in my second marriage, you know, and sometimes, like, my therapist likes to talk about the pressure cooker that sometimes it takes, you know, being in a pressure cooker to really, like, have things explode. And that's kind of what happened, is that I found myself in. Even though I was out of the church, I did not hold the beliefs. I had no reason to. To think that this is how I had to show up at a. As a woman. Yet I completely did. The chip is embedded. Deep.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:33] It is embedded. You know, and even, like, you were talking about it a minute ago, you know, this idea, now I can be a good mom. As if those eight years, you were some type of subpar moment doing the. But that's how deep. Right. And unconscious they can be.

Dre Robinson [01:12:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it had nothing to do with, you know, my belief in, you know, eternity or anything. It was. It was just the programming of, this is what a good mom looks like. This is what a good wife looks like. And it turns out that those. That rubric made me miserable.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:14] Yes. Oh, my gosh.

Dre Robinson [01:13:16] Absolutely miserable. I could not survive. I. It was bad. Yeah, it was bad.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:25] Yeah. And at what point then you. You kind of said, second marriage, feminist awakening. At what point did you know, I won't survive it? I won't. This. This rubric that I've been, you know, giving so much power to, that I've believed in and judged myself, you know, at what point did you have a sense this. I won't survive it if I. If I continue to live this formula in this way that's so dishonoring to kind of your individual needs and kind of, you know, was there. Was there a particular time or did you feel like it kind of. There was a build, like that pressure cooker that. That build of discomfort and suffering over time that kind of created it.

Reaching a Breaking Point and Seeking Change

Dre Robinson [01:14:08] I think it was. I know exactly when it was. And it was. It was the pressure cooker for sure. It was after I had had my second little boy, and so my last baby, and I was. I knew that I was done having kids after that. There was just some medical things, and my doctor said, you're done.

Dre Robinson [01:14:25] And so I knew I was done having babies. And he was little, and I wonder now if I was, like, had some postpartum maybe after that, and just was not. I didn't deal with it. And I remember sitting in my kitchen on my counter, and I was crying. The kids had gone to bed, and I was talking to my husband, and he just was so confused because he's like, why are you so sad?

Dre Robinson [01:14:55] And I'm like, you just don't understand. And he. I remember kind of going the rounds with them and him saying, but you, Dre, you have everything. Like, you know, I. I make good money. We have healthy children. You have a beautiful house to live in. You live close to your mom. You know, we have our friends.

Dre Robinson [01:15:16] What could you possibly be sad about? And I remember feeling horrified, like, oh, my gosh. What do I have to complain about? Absolutely nothing. I have a beautiful life. I am so fortunate. What is wrong with me? How is this not enough?

Dre Robinson [01:15:37] And feeling horrible. Deep shame, you know, because I was so lucky. And I felt like there was something completely wrong with me because I wanted something outside of what was there and perfect, you know? And, I mean, obviously, I feel bad still.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:05] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:16:05] About that, because I was. Anybody would have wanted to trade lives with me. I had a great life, and I was so miserable.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:17] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:16:17] And it was shortly after that that I reconnected with Heather.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:23] Oh, okay.

Dre Robinson [01:16:24] And I remember.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:27] So would you say at this point, you experienced a disconnect in what you were feeling and experiencing and your husband kind of. His sense of being able to kind of really understand that?

Dre Robinson [01:16:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:39] Okay, so it was a little bit of a divide there that you. Sarcasm. That you could. Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:16:43] Because I didn't feel understood, and I probably seemed crazy.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:48] So at this point, it feels like this might be one of the moments. Right. Where you were able to kind of identify, wait a second. Now I have the rubric. And it's like the perfect version.

Dre Robinson [01:17:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:01] Of the rubric, even. And now I am in that bubble

Dre Robinson [01:17:04] that I've seen and wanted and pined after. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:08] And on some level, it's like this. Like, the voice in the head, of course, which is programming, is like, how dare you be unhappy?

Dre Robinson [01:17:16] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:16] How dare you? How dare it not be enough.

Dre Robinson [01:17:19] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:19] For you.

Dre Robinson [01:17:20] Yep. Yeah. How dare you have any. Yeah. Any complaints whatsoever? And I remember I'm not a big, like, spiritual person anymore, but I remember, I guess it was a prayer. I put something out into the universe, and I said, I need some help. You either have to knock some sense into me or bring me something, because I cannot do this.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:47] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:17:48] I will break. And it was truly, like, maybe a couple weeks later that I bumped into Heather in the parking lot of. Of the choir concert at the junior high. And she just said, hey, what are you doing these days? I'm home. And she was like, well, you know, I'm doing this business. And it was. It was. You know, I had worked At a med spa after I graduated for a little while before I got married, remarried. And she was like, I know you've been in the industry. Do you have any interest in, like, coming and just consulting with me and, like, talking to me about it? And I was like, oh, my gosh. That maybe the universe is real. Maybe prayers are answered. Because maybe this is some. Maybe this is my answer. Maybe this is something I can do. Yeah. With my time. And maybe this is what I've been missing.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:42] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:18:43] And turns out it was.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:46] That's amazing. You said two weeks.

Dre Robinson [01:18:48] Yeah, it was like, literally two weeks after I had had that sobbing conversation with my husband. And I was so distraught. And then. Yeah. And then I bumped into Heather, and so the timing was absolutely perfect, and. And we started working together. And that. This was. That was my true feminist awakening, was when I connected with Heather.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:14] So because you had this. This. It feels like. Did you feel lonely? Did you feel like, amidst that time, did it feel quite isolating?

Dre Robinson [01:19:23] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:23] To have this life that you, you know, on some level, had been taught was the ideal life. And then. But you're having this such a dissonant experience from what you expected to kind of feel.

Dre Robinson [01:19:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:38] And then. I don't know. Were you able to talk to people about that? I know you tried to talk to your husband. Were there people that you were able to talk to that you had a sense that people. Someone was there for you or.

Dre Robinson [01:19:49] No, not really. And not until I started working with Heather and I saw her in. Because I was never going to say out loud that I was unhappy in my life. I mean, I did not feel like I had the right to, you know, like.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:04] So. Oh, my gosh. I just want to, like. Like, pause that because I think so much of that actually is conditioning around what we're taught to want.

Dre Robinson [01:20:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:16] And what happens if what we want something different? What if it actually isn't what brings us joy or it's not best for our psychological profile or, like, they're just a myriad of reasons why for many, many women, not just you. I actually think it's a majority. I think there are a lot of women it works for, but there are probably more women that need a blend, some type of blend of how this all works, you know, Totally. You know, but that idea of what's wrong with me, not what's wrong with the. What's been expected of me, not what's wrong with this prescribed model that really benefits a system and certain individuals acting in that system. Right. But it's what's wrong with me, you know. Oh, I'm the broken piece, clearly, you know, as that. And that reminds me of that. Internalized just what we internalize as women.

Dre Robinson [01:21:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:10] What we're capable of, what we should wear, want, what our dreams should look like.

Dre Robinson [01:21:14] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:16] That's so real.

Dre Robinson [01:21:17] It. It is, it is. And you don't feel like, at least for me, I did not feel like I could complain, you know, and, or have wants and desires outside of, you know, what was already prescribed to me and what I had, you know, and it wasn't until I started working with Heather and it was interesting because she was single and. But she was also being supported by her ex husband. She didn't have to do this business. She just like is really freaking good at business and was doing it and I was.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:54] And did you know that about her?

Dre Robinson [01:21:56] No, I had no idea. I had zero idea. I knew she was like, did like photography and stuff and I knew she kind of like had some side gigs, little like fun projects, you know, but I didn't know what a phenomenal business mind she had until we connected and like we just vibed so well and we would start kind of like sharing with each other like, you know, kind of those feelings of like, oh, like this is really fun. I kind of feel bad that this is so fun and that like we love this so much and you know, okay, well, we have a meeting.

Dre Robinson [01:22:33] Oh, that's the same day that the girls have their debate thing and it's like, oh, yeah, okay, well, so we can't do it that day. And she totally got it like because we were in the same boat. And so it was like this weird way that we were doing life of like being responsible as moms.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:51] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:22:51] But then also having this business. And when we decided to like fully partner and become business partners and I bought the shares of her old business partner who wanted out, it was like I felt so confident because I knew she could understand. Like she was that person that I could talk to about how I was feeling of like my mom guilt and you know, and, and feeling restless in my life and I knew she wasn't going to judge me. I knew she totally got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:21] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:23:22] You know, because she felt the same way too. We always both had to leave at 2:30 to go pick up. You know, we'd have to schedule our meetings in between nine and two, which is ridiculous. You know, we remember us saying like if we were men we could have a meeting at 4:30pm you know, but that was not in the cards for Us, because we had to. You both were juggling, you know. Yeah. And it was the fact that I had this person that was, like, so brilliant and had such a great business mind, and we could talk for hours about, like, strategy and what we wanted to do and how we were going to grow, and it was so stimulating and really filled my cup, you know, and then we could swap recipes and talk about carpool.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:05] It was just this perfect, like, all the things.

Dre Robinson [01:24:08] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:08] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:24:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:09] Do you remember when you think back on that day that Heather offered that. Do you remember what it felt like?

Dre Robinson [01:24:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:18] What it felt like for, like, did what did it.

Dre Robinson [01:24:20] It felt like an oxygen mask being physically placed on my face. And now I could breathe. Like it was a rescue. And I was, to this day, so grateful. So, so grateful that our paths crossed.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:37] And can I say that is what. So you're. You're. And Heather's interview is one of my favorites of Mormon stories. And it's. It is this synergy and this support and this love between, you know, two humans and, as it happens, two women and that I. I was most moved by. It's just. And you can witness it. You witness it in the way you guys communicate side by side. It's also non. Like, also non verbal community. It's. Yeah, it's this whole thing, but you can kind of sense it, I really would say, to just invite people to go and. And watch that as a background kind of.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:18] And some context to this. But I'm really curious, and I wish we had Heather here for this moment to just say, do you have a sense for why Heather chose you? What made her come to you that day? If she had a sense, do you think, for. Or had you ever talked about it before? Or was it literally. Did it feel like out of the blue?

Dre Robinson [01:25:42] It felt out of the blue. She knew that I had worked in a med spa before, and so I think maybe, but I don't think she would have reached out to me. I think we just happened to bump into each other. It was just perfect timing and dumb luck that we just happened to be leaving the choir concert at the same time and stopped and chatted in the. In the parking lot. And she just kind of mentioned, oh, yeah, so I'm doing this thing. I bought this business. It's totally weird. And, you know, I don't know. I just am doing it. And you might have. You worked in the industry. You might have some ideas. It was just so organic. And I don't know if it was divine timing or if it was just yeah. Absolute coincidence.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:24] Yeah. But it was a life preserver.

Dre Robinson [01:26:26] But it was a life preserver, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, truly, my friendship with Heather is one of the most impactful relationships I've ever had in my life. It's changed my life for sure. And it's interesting to say because it is like, we're two women, and we're not romantically involved, but we are, like partners. You know what I mean? Like, we just mesh together so well. And what she brings to the table, I completely lack. And what I bring to the table is not in her skill set, you know, and so it's like, we totally compliment each other. And it's. It's been so amazing and healing to kind of work on my own internalized misogyny, which is absolutely there. And to really have so much love and respect for another woman.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:20] Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:27:21] You know.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:21] Yes. And to have that. I mean, oftentimes we talk about the importance of, like, mentoring, and it's not exactly mentoring, but it is sort of like how important important. You know, having other humans in your life to share and to have that sense of mutual support, it can be so huge. And this just reminds me of that when you're talking about this relationship. And, you know, I felt this, like, really witnessing you as well is just another cultural programming thing, is this idea that romantic love is. Is the superior love.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:58] Like, that's the love that you should go for. And I just. I don't buy it. I. I feel like, you know, there are friendships that are far. Last longer or, you know, more intimate in this emotional connection. It's not about making one the best. I'm just saying, like, I think it's interesting because friendship love can be some of the best love there is, and it can last a lifetime and. And it can be so inspiring. And this idea to make romantic, somehow, this idea. I just. Watching you two and also having experiences in my own life of friendship where I love, love my friends. Right. That they're so pivotal. I don't believe in that hierarchy. I don't believe that there's, you know, it's all beautiful. They're all different.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] They.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:49] They're different functions. But like, friendship love, like, yes, we're here for it.

Dre Robinson [01:28:53] I'm so glad you said that because I think about that all the time. I'm like, why are we not celebrating, like, yeah, these friendships that have changed our lives and, you know, that last so long and then are never going to go away and that ebb and flow and, you know, teach us and all of These things. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:11] And they can stay. That they stay. When oftentimes some romantic loves end. And that's not to say that romantic love, when they end, that they're inferior. I just think the way we conceptualize love is interesting.

Dre Robinson [01:29:25] Yeah, I totally agree. You could do a whole podcast on just that. For sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:29] We'll have you back. We'll have you back and we'll. We'll kind of talk it through. So I kind of. How you doing over there, John? I wanted to check in.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] Super good. I'm loving it. I'm loving just sitting at the feet and absorbing the woman wisdom.

Dre Robinson [01:29:45] I love that. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:46] How are the comments? Are there. Is there anything worth kind of sharing at this point?

John Dehlin [01:29:51] Yeah. Christina writes this idea of friendship. Love is so wonderful. And that. That's another thing. Our, our child, Clara has been exploring her own gender and sexual identity and. And she ended up writing a book about asexuality. But in that book, she laid out that there's different types of attraction. And I'm 52 and Claire's blowing my mind because we all know what sexual attraction is, pretty much.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:21] And that's how we've defined attraction, by the way.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:24] Is sexual attraction. Basically. That's all.

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Yeah. But there's aesthetic attraction, which is just, you know, style. You like style. And how they look. There's intellectual. Intellectual attraction. How into. Into things are intellectually you are with them. There's spiritual attraction. There's psychological, emotional attraction. There are so many different types of attraction. And just we need to get out of these binaries. You know what I mean? We just really do.

Dre Robinson [01:30:51] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:30:52] Yeah. So these conversations are really helpful. And yeah. I think our viewers and listeners are loving it.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:56] Great.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] Yeah. They're vibing.

Dre Robinson [01:30:58] Thank you.

Building a Business as a Single Mom

Margi Dehlin [01:30:59] So at this point, I feel like you're kind of rebuilding. Is that right? So now you're, you're. You're kind of entertaining this idea of a business. Right. And you're acknowledging now this sense of. No, what I feel is I actually do feel a sense of unhappiness.

Dre Robinson [01:31:16] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:17] With this. So I'm going to go ahead. And I think that's important. Being honest with yourself and being able to. To kind of accept what you're feeling is the only way we really get to the next step of rebuilding. So it feels like you've had. You're kind of starting the rebuilding and you've had this acceptance of. No. That rubric.

Dre Robinson [01:31:37] Yeah. Whatever reason, it's not working for me. Yeah. And I think I had this opportunity with the business with Heather, and it was such a rebirth for me. And at the same time, I think I also had to acknowledge what I was giving up to indulge that piece of myself that wanted to be an entrepreneur, that wanted to create something, to have a business partnership, to do what we were doing. Something had to give. And that was a lot of. That was, you know, my traditional role as a mom. I did hire a nanny, and. And I've. I've had a few nannies, and they've all been so amazing. Love, love, love our nannies. They are part of our family. And looking at it now, I'm like, it's a great. They're. They're so great for my kids. They're so fun. They help me with the driving. They. You know, these girls are amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:43] They're like an extra resource.

Dre Robinson [01:32:44] Totally. Totally. And. But, I mean, there's definitely, like, some mom guilt, you know, and in thinking about kind of where I've experienced grief and loss, it's. You know, it is.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:58] It's the.

Dre Robinson [01:32:59] The field trips that I don't go on because I'm choosing my career, and it makes me feel like a jerk and feel like a bad mom, and it's, you know, that somebody else is picking up my kids from carpool now instead of me, and it's missing out on the. The trips to Thanksgiving point and to the zoo and all of these things that I used to do when my little boys were really young and I wasn't working. And I mourn that. That didn't make me happy before, you know, of course I loved it, and I would never trade it. I'm not saying that I was going to the zoo and hating my life, but.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:41] No, I hear that.

Dre Robinson [01:33:42] But, yeah, like, I was missing something, and so I definitely.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:50] And how do you. Well, and first of all, I was going to say, instead of indulging just because I'm a language stickler, I love it. Indulging. I would say you were meeting a need now that you're acknowledging that you have a basic need.

Dre Robinson [01:34:04] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:05] For whatever reason, it's the way you're made. It's the way you're, you know, and you're not indulging. A man isn't indulging himself by. You know, we would never say that about, you know, so what you're doing is you're. You're meeting a need and you're contributing.

Dre Robinson [01:34:20] Yeah. Is what you're doing right. You're so right. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I feel sometimes like I was absolutely indulging this, like, silly, you know, little flittery thing that I felt like I needed to do. But you're right, it is actually what I needed.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:35] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:34:36] I could not survive without it.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:38] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:34:38] You know, I needed to be doing something that was different than what I was doing.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:45] And on a level, yes. Heather was throwing you a life preserver, but so were you.

Dre Robinson [01:34:51] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:51] You were throwing yourself a life preserver, too.

Dre Robinson [01:34:54] Yes. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:55] And I think that's important.

Dre Robinson [01:34:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:56] That we also save ourselves.

Dre Robinson [01:34:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:59] And you warranted. You. You allowed yourself to be worths. Worth saving.

Dre Robinson [01:35:05] Yeah. Well, I knew I needed it when. When she threw out that preserver, I was like, yes, this is oxygen, please. This is what I need. Yeah. In order to honor myself and be the person that I believe that I was born to be.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:22] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:35:23] And, you know, doing this business with Heather, it has been a huge feminist awakening because it is different to be a woman in business, and especially in the medical industry, not as much in the cosmetic, because we have. It's a female dominated industry for sure. But like medicine is. It is for the men, like, they are in charge and it's another system. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:50] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:35:50] And we have. I mean, we laugh, like, because kind of the funny thing about us is like, oh, just two moms. Everyone was so surprised at how successful our business was because we are just two moms instead of two educated women with experience and great business minds.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:10] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:36:10] Why is anyone surprised?

John Dehlin [01:36:12] Hard work.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:13] Super hard work. Super hard working.

Dre Robinson [01:36:15] Yeah. But yet it's just so surprising that just these two dumb moms, you know, were able to do this business. And we laugh now about it, but, yeah, it was a real thing to overcome for us, you know, to be taken seriously as business women and.

Dre Robinson [01:36:35] And know then also, you know, trickling down into our business. Like, we employ mostly women and a lot of them are young moms. And it has been so fulfilling to work with these women. They are all so incredible. And I am so thrilled to provide a workplace for them to come and express that part of themselves, you know, and it's been so beautiful and fun to watch all of their little kids grow up and to watch them grow as mothers and as human beings and as estheticians and injectors and all of the things. It's been an absolute pleasure and such a joy, and I just wouldn't trade it for the world.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:24] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:37:24] I really wouldn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:25] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:37:26] And, you know, I think Heather's been a huge example to me of someone who is. Has to actively step into their power and, you know, she's on tv. Like, it's. It's a lot.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:40] It is gnarly.

Dre Robinson [01:37:41] And I'm just so impressed with her. Like, to see how capable she is, it makes me want to step into my own power, too, you know? And you rise up to meet her.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:53] Yes. Yes. The power of having inspiring humans in our lives.

Dre Robinson [01:38:00] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Processing Grief, Loss, and Anger After Divorce

Margi Dehlin [01:38:02] Well, okay. I wanted to just go. Go back for a minute around grief and loss, because I thought you said some important things around that. And what I was noticing is a lot of grief and loss around some of those kind of ideal mom things, of being at all the things. Right. At being the type of mom that's made happy by those things, it being all those things. And I think oftentimes, I don't know. Do you feel like with the Mormon conditioning, we've been taught to think if it's the right choice, you feel good about it. And it's just everything. It's like everything's blessed.

Dre Robinson [01:38:39] If it's totally the right decision, everything will.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:42] But the truth is, is you can make decisions that are absolutely healthy and good for you and feel loss at the same time.

Dre Robinson [01:38:50] Like, 100.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:51] It's just not the. Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:38:52] I feel like that's a daily struggle. And especially, you know, like, a couple years ago, I. I went through my second divorce. And that too. Like, I mourn every. Every day that my kids aren't growing up with mom and dad under the same roof. I hate it. And I feel lost that I. That my kids are only with me half of the nights, you know, because their dad and I share custody and, you know, and that is loss. And I experience grief because of that. And I'm really happy that I'm not married anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:29] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:39:29] And I know that I am a better mom and a better sister, a better friend, a better daughter, a better boss, a better business partner. I am a better human being because of that choice.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:41] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:39:42] And I don't need anybody to understand it.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:44] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:39:45] As long as I know. Right. That that was what was right for me and. And our family, honestly.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:53] Yeah. So would you say that you still. It's kind of a daily practice then, to sort of navigate those feelings of grief and loss.

Dre Robinson [01:40:03] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:04] It's not something you did and now you're past.

Dre Robinson [01:40:07] Yes. And it's. A lot of it is replacing, like, you know, for example, feeling sad about, you know, that I work and that I'm not home with my kids every single day and missing out on some of those things. And then I replace that with my boys, get to see that mom also works.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:30] Yeah, I.

Dre Robinson [01:40:33] That I pay for my own stuff and that I own my own home and that women can do that and that. My daughter, who, you know, I remember one time she was little, I think she was like 8 or 9, and I remember exactly where I was on I215, and she said, well, mom, can't I just marry a rich guy like you did?

Dre Robinson [01:40:55] And it was like a stab to the gut because I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That we're not doing that. You know, And I now know that my, you know, my daughter works at beauty lab and she goes to school. School. And.

Dre Robinson [01:41:12] And the truth is. So she's part of the LGBTQIA community, and that is not going to be an option for her to just marry a guy and have him take care of. She doesn't want to marry a guy. And so I'm like, this is what we're doing now. Like, you have to take care of yourself, and you have to learn that you can take care of yourself. You don't have to rely on other people, whatever that looks like.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:36] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:41:36] And so I'm replacing that regret and that guilt and shame and grief and loss with, okay, I'm not at the field trip today, but my kids are seeing their mom providing for them and being an equal partner with their dad. And that's the greatest gift that our divorce gave us.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:57] So let's move into that part of our building. So we've done a little bit of the professional. Talk to me a little bit about gender roles and this, rebuilding around some of those narratives and how it's affected your parenting.

Dre Robinson [01:42:10] Okay. So, I mean, it's affected everything about my parenting. I feel like I've just. I've gone through such a transition over the last few years with this, and. And it is. It's a daily practice of forgiving myself for not being that perfect on paper, Mormon mom. I'm just not going to be that. But like you said, there are a lot of ways to show up as a good mom. And, you know, I think in my second marriage, it was hard because I presented myself as a stay at home mom that I wanted to do the traditional gender roles. And turns out that didn't work for me.

Dre Robinson [01:42:54] Me. And that is what my kid's dad wants, and so he should have that. And I think we both kind of got to the point where it's like, why are we trying to fit this when what you want is not wrong and what I want is not wrong.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:10] Yeah. They're just not. It's just exactly. They're just.

Dre Robinson [01:43:14] Yeah. And, you know, and so I do think. And I. Ever since my daughter came out, we have a lot of messaging and talking around, you know, LGBTQIA plus issues and rights, and it's a major conversation in our home all the time because it's part of our life now.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:36] Yep.

Dre Robinson [01:43:37] And that didn't exist before.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:39] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:43:39] You know, not that I've always been an ally and I've, you know, all. All of that, but it wasn't something that I really talked to my kids a ton about. And now it is a part of our.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:48] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:43:48] Daily life all the time. And I'm super proud of that. You know, my kids know exactly what pride is, and, you know, they know about pronouns, and I love that. It's just different than how it was earlier on in my parenting, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:06] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:44:07] And I think also just the idea of gender roles, I just am really, really careful with my kids.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:18] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:44:18] To not try to pigeonhole boys and girls. And, you know, it's funny because my middle son is very emotional, and I worry that sometimes he hears, like, don't cry. Don't be, you know, be a big boy and boys don't cry and that kind of thing. And the truth is, is, like, he's just a totally emotional kid that cries a lot. Lot. And that is going to be his experience. And so how do I lean into that and allow him to express himself in a healthy way and give him language for it and nurture that piece of him? Because that is not girly or boyish. That is just human being him.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:01] That's right. It's human.

Dre Robinson [01:45:02] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:03] And I love that he's connected enough to show those emotions, you know, because I think that's oftentimes what happens is it's like that circuitry. It. Particularly with men, you have, like, this. This disconnect, you know, it's sort of like, you know, not only are they not crying, they're not aware they're sad. They don't have language. They don't have for what they're feeling. They're not connecting with themselves in their own experiences and their emotions. So I love that. That he's doing that.

Dre Robinson [01:45:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do, too. I do, too. But it's interesting how I am very aware that he is very emotional, and I don't. Sometimes I wonder, like, if he was a girl, would I be this in tune with it? Because it's. That seems normal like this, unfortunately, because of, like, some of the things We've designated as being male or female or boy or girl. It. It does stand out to me that he's so emotional, and that's something I need to work on and just, you know, remind myself he's a kid and he is showing up the way that that kid shows up.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:11] Yeah. You know. Yeah, absolutely.

Dre Robinson [01:46:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:15] I mean, what I hear and what you're saying is just an expansiveness. So, yes, there we were talking about that loss, and that can be tough as you're rebuilding, to kind of have this sense of what you're losing. But then I'm hearing all these births, all these new things that have been brought to your world that make your. Am I getting that right? It feels like your world has expanded. Your love is larger. You're. You know that your whole experience has kind of widened.

Dre Robinson [01:46:45] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:46:46] I.

Dre Robinson [01:46:46] And I feel that. I feel like. I feel like I have had a rebirth, you know, an awakening, a personal renaissance, you know, of being able to reinvent myself at 41. Who gets to do that? We all do. And it's really exciting. And it's not to say that I don't, you know, question myself and wonder, did I make. Have I made the right choices? I screwed everything up for my kids and for myself. And I got in this weird, like, headspace the other day that I was totally stressing about my finances and thinking, oh, my gosh, I am only 41. I have, like, 50 more years on the planet, and how am I going to take care of myself?

Dre Robinson [01:47:30] And what did I do? And I'm alone, and I have no one to take care of me. And, like, I had to just talk myself out of that and be like, are you joking? You're totally capable. You chose this, and you can do it. And I can. I know I can.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:47] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:47:48] And why does that seem so scary? I don't know. It's because I'm a girl. Because I'm a woman.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:54] And you're human.

Dre Robinson [01:47:55] Yeah. And I'm human. But. But it feels like I'm doing something that I'm not supposed to be doing.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:01] Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:48:02] Being totally in charge of my future.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:04] Yeah. Kind of going against current still.

Dre Robinson [01:48:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:09] The current of sort of how we're socialized on a lot of levels.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:48:14] Yeah, completely.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:15] That makes sense. And it is effortful. I mean, it's not like swimming with the current, I'll tell you that. It's effortful and. And. And it can be tiring. And it makes sense that you're feeling a lot of those things. Have there been. You can Take this either way. Particular obstacles. Would you say loss is. Is the biggest kind of hard thing about rebuilding, that it shows up as often as it does, or what would you say has been like a. A harder aspect of rebuilding? If anything, I.

Guilt, Shame, and the Hard Work of Rebuilding

Dre Robinson [01:48:49] Guilt and shame. Guilt and shame, they're your hands down.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:52] Okay.

Dre Robinson [01:48:53] Yes, I do guilt and shame very well.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:55] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:48:56] So super good at it and. Yeah. I think just. Yeah. Feeling like I don't measure up, that I've done it wrong, that there's something wrong with me because this is the path that I've thrived on, you know, which is ridiculous backwards thinking. It really is. Because if someone's thriving, do that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:20] Right.

Dre Robinson [01:49:20] Do more of that.

John Dehlin [01:49:22] Right.

Dre Robinson [01:49:23] But I think, again, it's the internal misogyny and patriarchy that I'm like, no, it does. It's not supposed to be this way. So I need to feel guilty about it. Right. I need to feel like I've done it wrong. Even though I'm happier and am. Am a better mom and more. I'm much more present and connect with my kids. I'm. I'm proud of myself as a mom. I know. I'm a good mom. I love my kids.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:52] Yeah. So how you ha. It sounds like that comes up for you a lot. What do you do with that?

Dre Robinson [01:50:00] Process it in therapy.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:02] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:50:02] Self talk. And also that reframing. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:05] You know, it's like rewiring, isn't it?

Dre Robinson [01:50:07] Absolutely. Yeah. And it is. It's a daily practice.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:10] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:50:11] You know, again, you know, the divorce thing is the perfect example. You know, if I wake up alone in my house and I don't have my kids, I do feel sad. I miss them. And I think, this is. Sucks. This sad. And then I think, oh, but remember how you were. Remember. Remember what a zombie you were? Remember how you didn't want to come home? Remember how you were detached? Remember all of those things. And remember that your kids are just three minutes up the street. You have a great relationship with their dad. You can go over there and see them anytime, call them anytime. This is ideal.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:54] Yes. That's a reframe.

Dre Robinson [01:50:57] Yeah, It's a total reframe.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:59] Yeah. Beautiful. How about victories? Are there things that come to mind in rebuilding so along this time, you know, starting a business and how you now navigate parenting with this full embodiment of, you know, roles and that you are kind of all the things in many different ways. Like what for you, feels like moments of just. These are victories for me in the rebuilding process.

Victories and Milestones in a New Life

Dre Robinson [01:51:27] Yeah. I think. I mean, it's it's sounds dumb, but, like, I think when I signed my mortgage, that was, like, a huge victory for me. I was like, are.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:41] Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:51:41] Are you kidding me? Like, this is my first house that I owned by myself, and I did it. So, like, that was a huge victory. My daughter Elsha goes to Dixie State, and moving her in to the dorms and then walking over to the admin office and whatever, and we paid for her meal plan, and I paid her tuition and did all that and got her moved in, and then I flew home from St. George, and I remember sitting on the flight and being like, holy crap, I did it.

Dre Robinson [01:52:19] Like, not only did I raise this kid pretty much by myself, but she's amazing. The smartest, coolest, funniest, raddest human being with a good heart and an amazing brain. And I got her moved in, and I paid for it myself. I didn't need any help from her dad, from. From my dad, from anyone. And I did it like that. It was just such a victory. It was such a win. And I'm so. That I'm most proud of my kids, for sure. You know, and then I think just the success with beauty lab and honestly, like, me and Heather coming on Mormon stories, that was such a victory. It was such an incredible experience. It was like nine hours of therapy with John.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:12] And what do you feel like it gave you? What is it? Why. Why does it feel like.

Dre Robinson [01:53:17] You know what? This is such an incredible community that you guys have built. Your people are kind and welcoming and soulful and wonderful, and, like, just the love that we felt from that and the, like, people saying, like, oh, oh, that resonated with me. I had that experience, too. I remember thinking the same thing. It was, like, just total validation that, like, we're all having these experiences and we're not alone.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:54] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:53:54] It was just. That was such. I mean, it's hard to say a victory, but it was such a milestone.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:00] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:54:01] You know, that really, like, made an impact on Heather and I, and it was an opportunity to, like, process a lot of stuff with her, with transitioning out of the church that, like, I had kind of forgotten about. That helped me heal even further and just evolve as a human being and. Yeah, but, I mean, the biggest thing is just the community of people are so beautiful and kind and loving and just awesome.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:33] Yeah, I love that.

Dre Robinson [01:54:34] Yeah.

Resources, Reflections, and Listener Stories

Margi Dehlin [01:54:36] Well, so with regard to kind of your journey overall, with regard to defining, redefining, you know, gender roles, are there any resources for you that. That stick out? I wonder if Heather's a Resource. She'll be like, everyone needs a Heather gay, but everyone needs a Heather game.

Dre Robinson [01:54:58] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:59] Are there things that kind of stick out to you that in moments were really, really helpful and that you.

Dre Robinson [01:55:05] I absolutely. So I will say, and this was part of my earlier story. There was a man who owned. He was the man that owned the gas station that I worked at my senior year of high school when I first moved to Utah.

Dre Robinson [01:55:17] He was someone that really empowered me and, like, loved that I wanted to start my own business. He made me a manager, like, really early on when I started working there, because he said, your management material. And to have this man that wasn't my dad, that was like a pillar of our community. Alpine's a small town, and he kind of took me under his wing and, like, he helped me and made it okay for me to, you know, be good at something that wasn't babysitting and church.

Dre Robinson [01:55:48] And so I think men out there, if you can empower the young women in your lives, like, it makes all the difference. It really does. I think having a friend like Heather that, you know, she just gets me and I get her and she is so empowered, but also has all of the same self doubt that we all do and. But is really good at talking about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:17] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:56:17] You know, that's been huge for me. I.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:19] So everyone reach out to Heather.

Dre Robinson [01:56:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:21] So that. No.

Dre Robinson [01:56:26] And also, I mean, I talked about this last time, too, but I read Glennon Doyle's book Untamed, and that book changed my life. Like, she put perfectly put into words how I felt as a caged animal. Which. Why should the cheetah be sad?

Margi Dehlin [01:56:42] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [01:56:43] Because she has this beautiful, safe place, but it's not the wild outdoors.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:48] A beautiful, safe cage.

Dre Robinson [01:56:50] Yep, A beautiful, safe cage. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:53] And we're not saying what a cage means for you.

Dre Robinson [01:56:56] Yes, yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:58] That's very individual. But when you feel like you're in a cage, time to set yourself free.

Dre Robinson [01:57:03] And it's okay. I feel like reading that book helped me forgive myself for being, you know,

Margi Dehlin [01:57:11] that's some of the wanting. What I want, hardest, best work there is.

Dre Robinson [01:57:15] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:16] That journey. Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:57:17] Yep. And then therapy. Everybody go to therapy.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:20] Therapy for everyone.

Dre Robinson [01:57:21] Therapy for everyone. I know.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:23] Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah. And I love, too. I mean, I'm gonna just say a resource that you're giving because I love that on some level, you know, you're providing work opportunities for women who, on a level, or like, you were, you know, so women also showing up for women and empowering and providing opportunities too where they can.

Dre Robinson [01:57:47] Yes. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:48] I love that you're doing that.

Dre Robinson [01:57:50] That is one of the best places that we, as women can help change. Kind of the vibe of what is happening in our culture is we have to support each other.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:03] Yes.

Dre Robinson [01:58:03] And love each other and. And celebrate one another's victories and empower one another. And, I mean, that is honestly one of the most impactful things is, for me, is the women in my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not only when their journeys look the same as ours, you know?

Dre Robinson [01:58:26] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:27] But where they may be different, too.

Dre Robinson [01:58:28] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:29] Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful. So if we were going to kind of end the. The final question, kind of being, you know, the Dre now.

Dre Robinson [01:58:39] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:40] The Dre with gender roles and all that you've navigated, you know, how is she different than the Dre we met earlier? Like, you know what I mean? So the Dre that we've kind of journeyed through. Who are you today? What is that difference? What does life look like for you in this value now that it. You know, and how is that different?

Dre Robinson [01:59:02] Yeah. I think this Dre is apologizing much less. I'm still apologizing. I'm still a work in progress, but I am really okay with who I am, and not all the time, but I would say, for the most part, I like who I am. I like the things that I'm good at, and I forgive myself for the things that I'm not good at, you know? And I am a mom that may not seem like all the other moms, but I'm a good mom, and there are a lot of ways to be a good mom. And I think I'm finally starting to realize that. It's taken a long time because I still struggle with the guilt and shame, you know, but it's. I'm a work in progress, for sure. And I'm super proud of myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:05] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [02:00:05] And I want my daughter and my boys to know that women, people can be who they want to be. Not just women. Everyone. If you want to have a career, have a career. If you want to do nothing but bake, do nothing but bake.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:27] Exactly.

Dre Robinson [02:00:28] That's not for me. I'm not a baker. But, you know, I think of all of these things that used to trigger me, like cooking dinner. You guys like, cooking dinner was such a weird trigger. Not because I hate to cook, but, like, I'm not really good at it, and, like, it's hard for me, and I felt a lot of pressure, and it's expected. Yeah. I felt a lot of pressure to cook dinner. And now, like, I'm great with the guy cooking dinner. Love. I love it. You know?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:58] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [02:00:58] And guess what?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:59] There's whoever wants to cook dinner. That's right.

Dre Robinson [02:01:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:02] We'll take it.

Dre Robinson [02:01:02] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:05] Thank you so much. Much for sharing your story. Is there anything that I didn't ask you or in. In thinking about that you want to include that you wish you had said or that you want to say?

Dre Robinson [02:01:15] Good. No, I don't think so. I loved the conversation. You guys are both so wise, and I just appreciate. I feel like, again, just therapy with the delins. So thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:26] Thank you for sharing your story. I feel like this is part of so many women and humans, on some level, you can. You can translate and this over.

Dre Robinson [02:01:39] Totally. And I'm glad we talked about the men. That was a really good point that John brought in that, you know, it's. This is something that affects everyone.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:47] Yes.

Dre Robinson [02:01:48] These gender roles and stereotypes and the boxes that we put people in do not serve us right. All across the board.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:55] Yes. Yep. Beautiful. Do you have any final thoughts, John? What. What's going through your mind?

John Dehlin [02:02:01] No, I'll just read a few final comments that people shared. Amanda writes, sometimes I feel like I have to choose between being a mom or having a career. It's so inspiring to hear Dre's perspective and story on how you can do both and be great at it.

Dre Robinson [02:02:22] Oh, thank you. You can. You can.

John Dehlin [02:02:24] It's a sample from Amanda Maven. Hey, Maven. Maven writes, this is such an awesome episode. There's so much that's relatable. Thank you, Maven. Chelsea writes, your kids are so lucky to have you as their mom. You are inspiring. Dre Another writes, I am a current Mormon, so this is an active, believing Mormon who's watching and she says and can see how the church should give members more roles within the church.

Dre Robinson [02:02:58] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] It's nice to see that we have, and we know we have believing, active members watching the podcast. And then Amanda, final comment. She writes, you'll like this. Empowered women. Empower women.

Dre Robinson [02:03:10] Yes. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:03:12] How cool is that?

Dre Robinson [02:03:12] Very, very cool. I love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:14] Yeah. Not a scarcity mindset.

Dre Robinson [02:03:16] No. Nope. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:03:18] You gotta lift each other up.

Dre Robinson [02:03:19] I love it. Yep. There's plenty of room for all of us, for sure. And it's better together.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:25] Yeah.

Dre Robinson [02:03:25] Better together.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] Andre, you're a love. And we hope you'll come back anytime. Please give our love to Heather.

Dre Robinson [02:03:31] I will. We gotta get her on thrive. We gotta get her on thrive.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:34] I would love it.

Dre Robinson [02:03:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:35] Oh, thrive. Story.

Dre Robinson [02:03:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:36] Thrive story with. With Heather.

Dre Robinson [02:03:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] But let's do freaking brunch.

Dre Robinson [02:03:40] I know. We have been trying to go to brunch for, like, a year.

John Dehlin [02:03:44] Yeah, let's do brunch. Yep. But we. We adore you and we're so grateful you'd come back.

Dre Robinson [02:03:49] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:50] Yes. I'm inspired by your story.

Dre Robinson [02:03:52] Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:55] Your strength and just the beauty of your becoming, it's a joy to witness, really.

Dre Robinson [02:04:02] Oh, well, thank you so much. Thank you, guys. I really appreciate it. I mean it. Yep. You guys are doing good work.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:09] Right back at you.

Dre Robinson [02:04:10] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] And Margi, I am just so happy to give the mic over to you. Pass the mic. And to let you lead these Thrive interviews. It's just so inspiring. And you do such, such a good job, and I love you.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:23] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:04:24] Is that unprofessional? Am I going to get in trouble?

Margi Dehlin [02:04:26] Who's gonna. Who's getting you in trouble? I'm curious. Anyway, thank you all for being here. And until we see you happy, thriving.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.