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  1. Just finished part 1. Still listening. We pay for this man to fly one of the most powerful jets in the modern era and he believes that people are possessed by devils and he has power to cast them out–instead of getting the woman to a professional for her mental disorder or for help from a drug induced psychosis? He also believes that something is speaking to him in his mind and he can hear it and answer to it? This is dangerous for anyone, not alone an Air Force pilot–what if this voice tells him to disobey his superiors–since he has figured out that Bruce R and BY are sort of right about Adam-god and that he needs no authority–which I agree to not follow any man or any religion when it comes to a god?
    Thank you John for these interviews. You are showing us what these people really believe and the world needs to know that they are dangerous and to stay away.

  2. Wow. Just wow. Watching an intelligent human being deceived by a man (Snuffer) who is building a lie on another mans lies (Joseph Smith) is extremely depressing to watch.

  3. I think the church banned you from returning because a young couple/family sitting in the pews, (excommunicated), shows the church as a failure. Your presence as cast-aways must have took the wind out of their sails every Sunday. The church has no mechanism for how to exist with families who can’t have a calling, don’t have to pay tithes, and don’t have to do any work, have already been through the program, and don’t give the brethren any credence. In short they had no more authority over you, and they saw it, so you had to go. Your comment about Dallin, and the brethren in general being anti-christ and wicked was ingenious and brutally honest will not soon be outdone nor forgotten!!. For an officer in the military to go against any authority, is in my opinion very telling about the lack of goodness and confidence in that authority, not as Go2 would suggest as a reflection of one’s crazy religious beliefs. And Go2 misses the point entirely, the point is freedom of thought, and belief, which he apparently reserves only for himself, and his beliefs.

    I always wanted to fly the F-15 but my hopes were dashed early due to my eyesight. As a kid I had several military books and knew the specs of the all top fighters and would never confuse an F-14 for an F-15, or a t38 for a Russian Mig either, haha. Your a hero to me in many ways, thanks for your example, and testimony.

  4. “The BOA is beautiful”…
    “BOA won’t break the back of the camel”…
    “Missing BOA scrolls”…
    “The spiritual witness is all that is required”…
    “No harm in what Denver is teaching”…
    “DNA not important”…
    “Smart people working on finding horse bones”…
    “Book of Moses and Book of Abraham are beautiful”…

    I’ll offer a quote from the BOM.

    “And… they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them (Moses 7:22)”

    How fascinating is it that this straight forward offensive quote is simply excused by a seemingly intelligent articulate sincere man?

    And to dismiss the whole of the CES letter out of hand as “minutia”…. I have no words.

    Matthew’s conclusions sound like echoes of schisms past. How can there be so many claiming the “truth”, yet be so different in how they view the same data? Cognitive bias is powerful I suppose. Makes me question “feelings of the spirit” in my own life. I guess I should go to my own grove of trees and pray sincerely….. Hmmmmm…. I’ll pass…. I don’t have the energy to start another movement.

    Thanks for sticking your neck out there Matthew, by having this interview. Your words are food for thought.

  5. Finished it! Enjoyed the mental gymnastics and the confirmation bias.

    1. A missionary who won’t urinate during the night just to not break mission rules is so dedicated? But what happens to a missionary, an AP, who is up past 12:30 to prepare for a mission conference and casting out devils?
    2. An earthquake is a confirmation god is happy with one? Idaho has seen 954 earthquakes in the last 365 days. God is speaking to someone–that is for sure. Last time I checked we live on an earthquake ridden planet, something about plate tectonics (heck even fracking)–god is a busy being speaking through ground shakings? I wish he could just use his voice?!
    3. The BofA is beautiful and true–one must read it to know it speaks falsehoods–just in the way it explains our solar systems and how our sun works.
    4. The BofM and horses–that was such a weak effort and the biggest part of the mental gymnastics. When they find a Nephite sword made of steel then I could trust a mormon of any kind–one sword is all I would need–not even a horse–which they will not eventually find.
    5. 2.2 billion seekers of christ and you say you know Denver is telling the truth because you are an honest seeker of christ? 2.2 billion others believe they are right too–who is really right here–the few or the billions?
    6. Traditional marriage? Can one define that when they say traditional marriage? Most quote from the days of the bible. Traditional marriage is when the father owns the daughter and gives her up to be married-owned by the husband–no thanks! No one owns my daughter, and I do not own my wife. I would rather see one being married to someone they love–regardless of gender.

    John–again, thanks for shedding light on this movement by giving their followers a platform to speak. I find their movement to be most disturbing, but then again, I find all religion to be disturbing.

  6. Here you go, Leon: http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/8/c/5/8c5264785686abf4/Letter_to_Stake_Presidency_2_16_Oct_14.pdf?c_id=18044624&expiration=1513878180&hwt=57bcbd85d3581d30c3e8cd79e29b9fb2.

    To be clear, Matt Lohmeier’s letter to his stake president argues against the claim by the LDS leadership that they cannot lead the members awry. Lohmeier’s charge that Elder Dallin H. Oaks taught a principle that is antichrist is found in the interview itself. Want to see John get excited? Come on his program and assert that one of the Twelve Apostles is teaching something that is antichrist! Thanks again for a couple of epic, timely interviews, John.

  7. As an active yet mostly not believing LDS member I really liked this interview. I was very disturbed by the treatment of the Lohmeier’s by their local leaders. Initially the teachings of the movement sound intriguing, but he lost me by part 4. Mr. Lohmeier came off sounding like an other typical fundamentalist, just without the polygamy and Brigham Young worship. They all have the same line, “The mainstream LDS is in apostasy and they no longer have the right to perform ordinances as of 1890” says one group, no 1912, or maybe 1938. Another group says 1978 and this one says 2014. No thanks, hard pass on this group.

  8. This might be a little harsh and it’s a bit long and rambling, so if you’re tired don’t bother reading.

    It’s not so much a critique of the people as it is movements like this, which I don’t think are of God at near the level the adherents want to think.

    The critique centers around the d-word – “doctrine”. If it wasn’t for doctrine…

    The vast majority of humans all over this planet almost since modern humans came into existence have agreed on several inherently valuable virtues. We all know them. Humans don’t really even argue about them. They are virtues like kindness, honesty, fairness, making amends, forgiveness, mercy, charity, loyalty, we shouldn’t murder, we shouldn’t steal, etc. Almost all of us here value these concepts. Everywhere on the planet these principles are valued at a core human level in every society. They contain an inherent value in and of themselves that leads to good but simple things in everyday occurrences. They could have been and could be the solution every man-made calamity this earth has or ever will experience. They don’t require a doctrine, a ritual, a badge, or a membership to be practiced. So if we agree on these things, why all the factions? All the differences? All the religions? So much argument and contention? Even bloodshed? Where do these negative things come from? Why are good virtues so often abandoned? In the name of what are they abandoned?

    I could be wrong but it seems the cause is very often doctrine.

    That’s what people seem to argue about. People don’t argue about being kind or charitable. They argue about how baptism should be done. What heaven looks like, or some other really useless aspect of a doctrine. Whether a religious cloth should be white or red. Whether in prayer God values more these movements versus those movements. Whether a group has exclusive rights to perform some ritual in his name. Whether the details of that religion’s doctrine are truer than the details of this religion’s doctrine. And whatever side you are on in all this determines whether or not he’s going to chose you. Why the high premium on doctrine?

    But the crazy thing? In and of itself doctrine doesn’t change anything. It just sits there. It’s just ideas about how some ritual should be done. Or how God does something, where he lives, or how he thinks. It seems doctrines can be used to back up virtuous living, but it also seems virtuous living doesn’t need doctrine at all. Or in other words, doctrine might be a route to something in some cases, but it doesn’t seem it should be an end in itself. No one can prove their doctrine true. But this is the lesser issue.

    The greater issue is that no one can prove his or her doctrine has any inherent value, like honesty, or charity, or kindness do. Whether a group does or doesn’t practice it really makes nothing better or worse. Doctrine isn’t even in the same league as virtue. There’s no manifestation in the real world where doctrine demonstrates any inherent value. Doesn’t matter how it’s dressed – religious, political, or philosophical. Doctrine must be justified and bolstered. It must be manipulating in order to be believed. It needs to be forced. It needs to be protected and fought for. It needs to be argued in order to be believed.

    I guess this isn’t necessarily bad, except for one thing… Doctrine is often weaponized. People are kicked out over it, or cut off, or ostracized, or killed, even when they are inherently good people living good lives. People fight for it and defend it as if it is the most important thing that defines good versus evil. It is life or death. They create new churches out of it, create an “us-versus-them” worldview out of it, excommunicate with it. It must be kept pure, even at the cost of the inherently valuable virtues. Kindness is thrown out over it. Charity is thrown out over it. Almost all virtues are thrown out over it. You’ll never see someone fight for a virtue like charity like you will a doctrine. To do so goes against charity. Thus the internal conflict to fight for charity. But doctrine is a completely different story. It is almost always fought over. Could the devil be in the doctrine?

    The Snuffer movement deemphasizes the consequences of having differing doctrines among its people. Currently it’s a bit of a free-for-all, not that that’s a bad thing. But it still is very doctrine-centric. This movement bleeds profusely the inherited LDS premium placed on doctrine and doctrine experts (although there is currently only one person claiming to be an expert) and this heavily seeps from the pours of Snuffer in his “this is the way it is” declarations. Accepting the Doctrine and Covenants is evidence enough of the importance of doctrine in the movement. They’ve even been excommunicated from one church in the name of doctrine so they’re willing to sacrifice themselves on some level for it. Really what separates them from the LDS church, or any church for that matter, is nothing other than doctrine, and in particular, the early doctrine, or probably more accurately, the early history. The history of the LDS church in a way has become the movement’s doctrine. On a side note, history nowadays has in almost all cases become a doctrine, but that’s a different story.

    In all new movements like this, it’s the claim to a special doctrine that makes the followers chosen. It’s not because they are any more pure, or honest, or kind, or charitable, that God has chosen them. None of these words come up in the narrative. To emphasize these words would diminish being chosen, because everyone knows those things. It’s because in some secret way they have something different by way of doctrine – something exclusive that makes them chosen. As always, doctrine by its nature creates exclusivity and unfortunately an “us-versus-them” worldview that quickly snuffs out the real power of virtuous living by turning the belief system into steps, rituals, punishments, rewards, blessing, cursings – things all focused on the “me”. Lay over the top of this a secret way to see the face of God that is self-centered and has nothing inherently to do with the work of real virtue expressed outwards to other fellow human beings and you end up with a movement. And then add in some confirmation bias reinforced by everyday natural events that have always been happening, like earthquakes and such, and you’ll end up with a group of people that are just…weird. That’s a joke. But at the end of the day nothing on the planet really changes except that there is now another group of people off in left field not coming near the God-given potential they have.

    So, this movement is still just another spin on doctrine and a claim at being chosen. This, the novelty, and its draw to mystical exclusivity will give people the dopamine punch to join. It’s the same old record playing the same old music that influences more than anything the chemistry of the brain than it does thoughtful service to others. It’ll place ever-increasing importance on doctrine, close a people off from where good people really need to be in a deteriorating world. That’s how these things often go. I don’t know exactly why. Maybe in the name of exclusivity, or ownership, or the validation of “we are chosen/we are right”. Whatever.

    I could be wrong again but it seems that the virtues mentioned far above, to include many more that weren’t mentioned, have inherent value and bring about happiness, peace, and goodness much more effectively than the details of how a ritual must be performed, or some random tidbit on God’s hair. And they don’t divide. If only religion could just stick to those things…

    If there is a God, which I believe there is, I don’t think he asks me to know anything more about him than that these virtues are in him fully and they exude from him. This planet is the avenue through which the evidence of their existence and inherent value flows. And all he asks me to do with this knowledge about him is to harness them in my life to the benefit of others, however insignificant that might be. This is how his characteristics/virtues can be expressed and magnified – through people who live them. To ask me to know more about him through a doctrine or a ritual is to ask me to cut off other human beings and seek to find him inside the organ called the brain and ultimately through a human-devised idea that he did not create. In other words, to seek to see his face through a doctrine or a ritual is to abandon my fellow human beings, disappear into myself, and ultimately abandon the virtues that likely make up his character and that he asks me to live so that I am more like him. It is to turn away from other humans and ultimately away from ever seeing his face. If I find him through a doctrine, good for me. If I find him through his virtues, good for all.

    The beautiful thing is these virtues reside in the here-and-now. They are what permit me to find him in the here-and-now. They needn’t be waited upon. They do not justify my being a monk on a crowded street. They don’t require a reward in the next life to be bolstered or justified. They are real. They are now. I can never fail, with or without a god, with or without his blessings, if a practice them. If I live them I will not fail, even if I’m cursed. If there is a God, and he wants us to live a certain way, how can this not be it?

    On a different note, I have some questions for the Snuffer people. Are you sure seeing the face of God has anything to do with eyeballs? Why the emphasis on these particular sensory organs? Seeing is purely a human demand. Why is it humans always want “seeing?” How often do people see faces in spilled paint, or clouds, or rock cliffs? Why is seeing the ultimate evidence or the ultimate experience? Why do you emphasis eyeballs as the maker or breaker of the truth of something? Who told you that seeing is or ought to be the capstone seminar in your relationship with God or Christ? I know what the D&C says. I just want to hear why seeing is the end all, be all. As a pilot, Matt knows how deceptive eyesight is. Human eyes did not evolve to interpret data accurately in almost all phases of flight.

    I know on a 9k setup that at the fight’s on if I unload the jet to about .5 g’s the aircraft will speed up much more quickly than at 1g. I also know that when I reach the turn circle, as I role the jet to place the lift vector in the proper place relative to the other jet, I’m about a split second away from feeling a heck of a lot of pressure/pain. This is something I don’t see. It’s something I experience. That is real. It’s real to everyone whoever finds him or herself at that spot in space. It’s undeniable and known to all who go there. That’s the way it is supposed to be in all things. And that tells me that God made us all equal and gave us all access to him equally. The reality of the physical word is equally real and undeniable to all humans. No matter what they believe, 9g’s will be 9g’s, a rock is a rock, falling is falling. It is this equal contact with the physical world and the equal access to virtue that tells me God is equally accessible to all. Many won’t find him, but he’s sitting right there.

    So I’m perfectly content to stay right here in the world where good things make sense and really exist right there in front of me every day. And I choose to reject doctrine and/or the enforcement of doctrine from whatever source that mystifies, confuses, divides, and is often weaponized.

    1. I didn’t read all your post, BUT, I agree with the parts I did about the base laws that most humans build their values on. They really are that simple.

      The doctrine is just the sales package. You don’t get money, control, fame, or anything from just letting people stand on values such as kindness, love, generosity, etc.

  9. We call Muslims that become more zealous and adherent to purer Islam “radicalized.” I think it the turn fits much better here than fundamentalist.

  10. I’ve listened to quite a few Mormon Stories episodes over the past few years and it’s unfortunate that what we hear about disciplinary courts is only one sided. It’s nearly always said that the Stake President who holds the court is a loving, kind man, but then in the next breath we hear about how unfair, cynical, or even abusive these courts are. It’s too bad that we can never hear the side of the Stake President.

  11. It takes a brave heart and strong faith to have such a powerful testimony.It took me several months studying Denver Snuffer books/teachings and i experienced an overwhelming feeling that Denver is truly an Authorized servant/messenger of God to preserve gospel restoration.I am already part of the Remnant Movement and i was once an active LDS member,served a full time mission for the church,searched several mormon splinter groups and to be very honest and sincere,Denver teachings have made me closer to God than any other Mormon splinter group teachings.For your information,i am an African and very aware of priesthood denied to blacks not until 1978.
    JM,UGANDA

    1. It’s extraordinary that Denver Snuffer’s writing would connect with a person in Uganda, James. Like Matt Lohmeier and Mr. Snuffer, either you’re being deceived or God has something really interesting for you to become and to accomplish. Wishing you much light and knowledge in your pursuit of truth.

      I noticed that the remnant scriptures project has an update of their latest work with the New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

      http://scripturesproject.blogspot.com/p/the-new-covenants.html

  12. Very much enjoyed the interviews with the adherents to the Snufferite movement. Surely these are sincere, high-caliber people, who have been willing to sacrifice much to follow their hearts. (Interesting that none of Snuffer’s hand-picked interviewee adherents claim to have received the Second Comforter, when apparently there are some who do!)

    Now for a fourth perspective (other than those of the Remnant believers, the mainline LDS and the Atheist/Agnostic views) please consider interviewing the blogger known as One Who Is Watching, or Watcher, regarding his book “Solving the Prophet Puzzle”.

    Watcher fully acknowledges the incredible dichotomy between the amazing scriptural revelations revealed through Joseph Smith and the many actions in his life which are inconsistent with those expected of any Christian – let alone a Prophet of God, but rather than choosing to accept one side of this complex man and completely rejecting the other (as everyone else seems to) – he posits by far the most fascinating, original and scripturally based explanation I have seen. (It is is an attempt to fully reconcile the dichotomy, not a “fallen prophet” narrative.)

    He can also explain why he believes the followers of the Denver Snuffer movement are misled.

    Rom

  13. Love it, classic mormonism at its best. 100% b/s for the purpose of self-aggrandizement. BTW elders in Taiwan have been making up stories for decades prior to your arrival, it helps one get promoted. In Taiwan it’s much more socially acceptable for Taiwanese chicks to throw hissy fits, it doesn’t happen that often, but when it does it can look like a scene from the exorcist.

  14. It doesn’t pass the laugh test to believe this gentleman and his wife wanted to continue attending church just for innocent fellowship. They were expressing ideas and opinions contrary to church doctrine. No Sunday school or Priesthood teacher needs Negative Ned making things uncomfortable. I find it hard to believe that people without an agenda would want to attend any function or establishment where they are not wanted.

    Another point I have wanted to bring up is with Denver Snuffer. It is a simple matter to take a church with a nearly 200 year history and keep all the points you like, try to make sense of the things you don’t understand and condemn those things which are blatantly problematic. That’s all Denver has done. His hand full of followers have fallen for it. My guess is that it will take far, far less than 200 years for his teachings to fall by the wayside and holes in his theology exposed.

  15. Taken from his most recent blog posted on “in Mount Zion:”

    “Last, I want to say this. To be an apostle in the truest sense of the word, is to be sent forth by Christ to teach others. There are those who have been sent by the Master who you do not sustain in your conferences and meetings. They possess the words of Eternal life because they know Christ and have received his word. They are possessors of Eternal life, though they dwell on earth as mortals. We should pay attention to what these have to say.

    This is why the scriptures are so valuable to us. They contain the words of Eternal life spoken by those who possess it. SEEK THESE. ALL ELSE IS CHAFF! We don’t have time to not be digging into the scriptures. Our effort in seeking Christ must become paramount in our lives.

    My foremost duty now is to seek this Jesus, of whom the prophets have and DO testify. He is gathering his people. ”

    Having once known this individual and had subsequently and considerably looked up to him, I am utterly and utmost saddened to witness he and his wife no longer sustain the Apostles of the Lord, nor believe in or are members of HIS church. It goes without saying the phrase, “the church is perfect; the men who lead it aren’t.” Some may pass that statement off as ignorant or elementary and that’s fine. Matt and Dr. Dehlin, et al…are too smart for their own good; salvation, even! Rather than simply relying on testimonies they once claimed they had (which testimonies are undeniably derived from “Moroni’s Promise” and how can anyone deny the faith once they’ve born witness that it’s true….is beyond me!), they choose to ”kick against the pricks” and find fault any literal and possible way they can! Certainly, there have been times/experiences in the church where I haven’t agreed on principle or had been offended, but one thing is sure that I cannot deny…the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints is THEE only true, living AND restored church on the face of the earth and so long as I am a member, this is the testimony I hope to never falter in upholding! I’ve been an elders quorum president for over a year and a half and I cannot deny myself of opportunities to share my testimony as often as I can, nor can I deny the experiences & blessings that come from proclaiming the truth & message of the restored gospel and the Lords appointed leaders that help guide His church.

    Joseph Smith once declared that the Book of Mormon is “the most correct of any book” and that “a man will grow closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book!” Denver does not need to re-invent the wheel, nor does he need to deceive the children of God into thinking he is annointed of the Lord.

    I’m compelled to testify that Denver Snuffer is analogous to (and reminds me of) the sad story of Korihor, one of MANY anti-Christs. These are men who have been deceived by the spirit of apostasy, and have and are leading down the path to perdition and attempt to bring many down with them. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints will continue to flourish, boldly, nobly, and uninterrupted while the Snuffer Movement will perpetuate in being the “footnote of nothingness and irrelevance.” Best of luck with trying to accrue the funds to build your counterfeit temples and with attempting to replicate the Lords church.

    1. Ancient apostles and prophets were directly called by God and testified of their direct experiences with the divine. They also gave direct instruction from God, speaking His words and not their own. The modern LDS apostles do not prophesy in the name of the Lord, nor do they testify of their direct contact with God. In addition, the LDS doctrine that their leaders (mortal men) are infallible is incorrect at best and damning at worst.

      You are correct that we need to spend our efforts to seek Christ and know his word. To those still in the LDS church and to those that have left, be careful not to place your trust in man.

  16. I was true blue LDS a few months ago. I researched Joseph Smith not practicing polygamy because my husband presented the idea to me. I found evidence for both sides but I strongly believe that because I was willing to study it, being humble enough to be open to new truths and by doing it prayerfully, it was confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith, Emma, and Hyrum were telling the truth. Then we looked into Denver Snuffer because he had the same belief. He is a prophet teaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ! I was so surprised. I have never had more Spiritual experiences, more Charity, more truth and light since I’ve been on this path. The Scriptures are delicious to me and the gospel is delicious to me fo the first time in my life. Stay humble! Ask God! He loves you!!

  17. Bit late listening to this one. Fascinating. When he mentioned people building altars in their homes to do the true order of prayer, I thought of old ward buildings that had prayer rooms with alters that priesthood quorums would pray at. The ward building right across the street from the old Spori building on Ricks College campus in Rexburg has an old prayer room (at least it did as recently as about 5 years ago). It is no longer used, but it was my wife’s old ward building, and she showed the prayer room to me. Through a secret door right behind the chapel. Quite interesting how things change!

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