Mormon Questions On Air

Marc Oslund [00:00:00] Foreign

John Dehlin [00:00:04] and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast and dare I say, a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast Today. The date is. What's the date, Cara? October 6, 2021. And we are kicking off something maybe special, maybe interesting, maybe will become a big deal. What are we doing, Kara?

Carah Burrell [00:00:28] Mormon questions on air with John and care

John Dehlin [00:00:33] and what is it?

Carah Burrell [00:00:34] That's the working title. If you can think of something better, let me know.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] So what is this?

Carah Burrell [00:00:37] I thought it would be fun. I love live streaming. I think that there is more questions out there than there are answers that we have time to give. And I feel like that's what the people. That's what the people want, John. They want John and Kara live streaming on a weekly basis, talking about the hot topics of the week and writing in their questions. Pretty much almost like an ama. It could be hopefully everything more Mormon related, but it could be off topic as well. But if you're struggling with something and you want John, Mr. PhD's advice over here, if you want to like tell a joke, I can read that on there. It could really just be whatever makes our audience happy and whatever you're thirsting after for this week.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Yeah, it's kind of. I'm, I'm old school, obviously, but you know, I grew up with this idea of kind of a radio talk show.

Carah Burrell [00:01:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Where, you know, just you can rely on the show being available at whatever date and time it's normally available. Current events will be discussed and it'll be fun and interesting. And then we can have call in people who can call in.

Carah Burrell [00:01:43] We have that capacity, right?

John Dehlin [00:01:44] Yeah, we have that capacity.

Carah Burrell [00:01:45] Video even.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] People can call in. Yeah. We can have audio phone call in or video call in and just have cool conversations with fun people.

Carah Burrell [00:01:53] Yeah. Like, aren't you guys excited? I'm so pumped.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] I think it could be fun.

Carah Burrell [00:01:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] And Kara's super fun and witty and. Yeah. So maybe we can start this as a trend.

Carah Burrell [00:02:05] Yeah, I. We're. So what John's trying. The point he's trying to make is we are hoping to find a day, once a week to have a set time similar to the way that Bill Real and rfm, they go Wednesday nights at six every night or. Sorry, every Wednesday night. I mean, we would love to do something maybe like every Monday night or every, you know, Tuesday afternoon or something. So we're. John's going out of town this weekend and so we were just trying to think of like new fun format things that would be easy and accessible that I think everyone would just like want to join in the conversation with us. So that's why we're giving this a try. I'm already pumped. I think it's going to go fabulous. I have no worries. Is anyone worried? Of course not, no.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] So, oh, and by the way, we love Radio Free Mormon and Bill Real. They're dear friends of mine. This is not done to compete. We feel like a rising tide lifts all ships. As long as we're not like competing with them in terms of the same

Carah Burrell [00:02:54] date and time, it'll be a completely different format than the show that they do as well. I don't want to say that. I just want to say that it's. Yeah. Like a weekly show that you can kind of depend on.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] Yeah. Because. Because Radio Free Mormon and Bill Real are so brilliant. They'll pick a topic and they'll just dig, dive deep on the topic. That's not so much what we're going to be doing. We'll be kind of covering current events, talking about them in a fun, lighter way.

Carah Burrell [00:03:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] And then hopefully there'll be a really robust dialogue. I know that right now Bill and RFM just kind of take a couple calls right at the very end. I think it'd be kind of cool to take calls and comments all throughout the show.

Carah Burrell [00:03:31] Yeah, yeah. And we prepared for this in like 15 minutes. So this is actually not a good representation of maybe how. Well, I think we're going to have a couple clips that we want to show a couple topics that we already know off the top of our heads that we want to talk about. But as time goes on and as your feedback gives us double thumbs up that we should keep doing this, we'll spend even more time preparing, showing clips, planning out. This is maybe more of like a fully functional call in show. So this is like a pilot episode. So yeah, we're, we're making some waves though. We're doing our best.

THrive: A Place for Faith Transitions & More

John Dehlin [00:04:05] So to begin. Yeah. So to begin, if you have ideas or tips or tricks or wishes for what you want the show to become, comment in the comments either on Facebook or on YouTube. We'll read your comments and suggestions and you can help us shape the show. That's kind of cool.

Carah Burrell [00:04:24] I would love that. I said on Instagram today I want to have as many different like polls and things on Instagram for people to write in about the topics that, or just like any kind of concerns. We're doing, you know, gift, the Mormon faith crisis stuff with Margi and Natasha and other people in the future. So we're trying to cover a Lot of different angles. We're covering faith crisis stuff. We're covering Mormon history stuff with John Larsen last night. If you guys haven't seen that podcast also, that's going to be epic. I told Aaron last night, like, this isn't. This is a top 10 the Willie Martin Handcart Company episode John Larsen did last night. So we want to cover history, faith crisis stuff, long format, people's personal interviews, but also just like the happenings of what's being talked about, what's going on. And what's going on is that we want you to come to Thrive and we want you to come out to events. So, yeah, take it away.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] Yeah. So part of what we want to do is just always let you guys know what cool or important things are, are going on. And it turns out there's actually a couple things that are coming up that we want to make sure, you know, everybody knows about. The first is a Faith Transitions retreat. So, you know, Margi and I and Natasha Helfer for many years started doing these workshops and retreats just to help people in Faith Crisis. We were realizing that marriages were being destroyed, that people were becoming depressed and anxious. People were freaking out about, like, how do I raise my kids without the church? How do I come out to my believing family and friends? How do I navigate a mixed faith marriage and lives were being literally wrecked. And so I went and literally got a PhD. Natasha already had a master's in marriage and family therapy and in sex therapy. Eventually, Margi became a life coach. And we literally don't do these events for the money. We don't do them because our schedules aren't swamped. We literally do these because some of the most important relationships forged in the post Mormon community and frankly, some of the most important initiatives have come out of these retreats. So, for example, we met Clint and Carrie Martin at one of the retreats we did, the one cruise retreat we ever did. Clint and Jenny Martin were on that. And from that retreat, Clint and Jenny were so moved and impacted by that retreat that they said, john, how do we help promote this content to help more people? And Thrive came about. And literally as a result of that one retreat, Waka Women of a Certain age came about after our very first retreat held in 2012. No, 2015, and many, many other cool things. And so, but most importantly, friendships, community, people learn that they're not alone. And they get tools and tips and tricks to help them navigate their lives. And so if you are around Salt Lake or Provo, October 15th through 17th that's next weekend there's a faith transition retreat. You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and click on the link and you can register the register for that event. There are a few seats left. And don't let money keep you from going. We do want to pay the the leaders of this event because we think professionals should get paid for their work and we have to pay for food and venue or not venue but logistics and other things. So there is a fee but if you can't aff afford the registration fee, we will do our best to find a donor to subsidize your attendance. So don't let money be the reason you don't go. If you would need to save your life, save your marriage, save your family, navigate a healthy faith crisis, just come to this event and I don't mean to talk too much about that. The other thing is thrive. Do you want to tell people about thrive?

Thrive Day 2021

Carah Burrell [00:08:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Thrive Day 2021.

Carah Burrell [00:08:15] This like young millennial. And so I just have that Kristen Wiig quote from Bridesmaids going help me, I'm poor. Just if that was a gift I could throw on the screen, that's what I would do right now. So Clinton Jenny Martin met him on a cruise. They're like, how can we help out? And then with Clinton Jenny Martin like thrive started getting going X, Y and Z. And now flash forward to me hosting Thrive day for women on Saturday and just having this like the chemicals in my brain. The dopamine hundred has not calmed down yet. I haven't slept. I need to like I am just. I have. It was the, it was one of the funnest days of my entire life.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] 800 post Mormon women in one venue.

Carah Burrell [00:08:54] Natasha Healing, growing up burlesque dancer. Need I say more? It was, it was quite an intimate affair if you want to say that it was. It was. I can't even begin to say what a ride it was. So if you were there, you know, you know, if you were there, like need I say more? But we are doing one for men, women, teenagers. November 14th at the Salt Palace. We have got Sarah Edmondson from actor from the Vow on HBO and author and podcaster from a little bit culty

John Dehlin [00:09:29] and former Nexium Nexium cult survivor. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:09:32] And Lance Allred, former NBA player. He has got. He's like, what the first legally deaf that player in the NBA from a polygamous family. He's an author, he's spectacular. And radio free Mormon. Alan and Katie Mount Mary and Shelley from latter day lesbians podcast. Monica Crowfoot is not.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] She had to back up. She got a.

Carah Burrell [00:09:56] So scratch that.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] One opportunity. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:09:59] Looney Luna, Lindsay Corbden, John De Lynn, this guy over here, Care Burrow, Natasha Helfer, Bill Real. And then. Okay, everyone, hold on to your. Give yourself. Sit down. This is so important. I'm so excited to be announcing this, you guys. I just announced it today on my Instagram that I wrangled a bunch of tiktokers to come to do a panel. I do, like a game show. I don't know what we're going to do yet, but the ideas are just like popping off of our heads. We're so excited. So I've got Kyleen, I've got Exmo Lex, I. I've got ex Mormon Mindy, I've got Jordan and McKay, Jack Mormon, Devil Trout who's like, my heart beats for Devil Trout if you know anything about me and me. And that's going to be spectacular. So if you just come out for that hour alone from Thrive, it'll be worth it. So the karaoke and karaoke. There's a pre party the night before, right?

John Dehlin [00:10:55] Like, or after, I don't know, something. There's going to be karaoke, say, for sure.

Carah Burrell [00:10:59] Follow. Follow the Mormon stories Instagram, you'll stay in the know. But all I'm saying is go to Thrive Beyond Religion, throw.com and get your tickets. It's only, what, $25?

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Yeah. And really, to be clear, people are like, why are they doing all these announcements? These announcements are not for us. Nobody makes, you know, nobody gets rich off of any of these events. No, but, you know, people, you know, Mormonism, we're all traumatized by having been basically, you know, robbed of, you know, so much money for so much time that people are sensitive about money.

Carah Burrell [00:11:26] I don't want to tell you how much money, like, we lose. Like people, not me, not us, but the people who are putting on Thrive just because they want the. They want the events just to go on. Like, they're so passionate about it, that money is of no object. They just want to. They want to keep the ticket price bare minimum.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] Yeah. To give you a sense, the last Thrive for women's event lost $8,000. And the. And the donors were just willing, you

Carah Burrell [00:11:51] know, like almost kind of on purpose, like they knew that was going to happen. They could have charged more, but they're like, yeah, we want to keep it affordable, you know, so that's incredible. And it was so cute. Like, after Thrive, so many women, like, got to Take the day off. And then after it was over at like 6pm there's just like minivan after minivan outside of, like, the husband with all the screaming kids in the car,

Marc Oslund [00:12:10] like, picking up their.

Carah Burrell [00:12:11] Picking up their. Picking up the. The mom, you know, like, so it was just such a good, good day off from, like, responsibilities and just so much fun. So please, please, if you need to travel, I hope that you'll make it a high priority because it was a riot. Like, and I Think Thrive Day 2021 is gonna even more better. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't even know if I can sleep. I'm just gonna not sleep between. Until Thrive Women's Day and then. And then I need to, like, hibernate for the winter.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Who needs sleep?

Carah Burrell [00:12:36] I just. I run on adrenaline, you guys. It's not healthy.

Beyond Belief: Questions for Christians

John Dehlin [00:12:38] The website is thrivebeyondreligion.com and you can register now. Please tell everybody and we'd love to see you there. Okay, that. Is that enough news? Is there any other news?

Carah Burrell [00:12:47] Let's get into the questions.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] Let's get into the most important thing

Carah Burrell [00:12:52] to begin with, a question before we go into the topics we want to talk about.

Waiting for my question

John Dehlin [00:12:56] Well, we kind of have breaking news. Do you want to wait? Oh, yeah, we have breaking.

Carah Burrell [00:13:01] Okay, we will get to your questions. I know this is called questions, but we have something really exciting. Well, not quite exciting.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] Disturbing.

Carah Burrell [00:13:08] Disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] Alarming.

Carah Burrell [00:13:10] All right, I said the word exciting. That's what I meant. But, like, more hold on to your hats, folks, kind of stuff. Just. I. All I'm trying to say is I want to get to the questions, but I just realized.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] No, we'll get there. We'll get there for sure.

Carah Burrell [00:13:22] There is something that is slightly higher.

Meet Mark Osland: The Amazing Mormon Seminary Teacher

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Yeah, we have breaking news. We weren't even planning necessarily on talking about this, but we just found out, like, 30 minutes ago. For those of you who have been following Mormon Stories podcast recently, the name Mark Osland will be familiar to you. If you go to an episode on Mormon Stories, It's. It's titled, A Mormon Seminary Teacher Loses his Faith, and Mark Osland is an Amazing human being. Just to give you a really quick brief background of Mark, he grew up in the LA area. He was a nationally recruited quarterback and baseball player. He joined the church because he thought a Mormon girl was cute around age 16. Ish. I'm just doing this all by memory. Mark can tell me I'm completely wrong and ended up sort of, I would say, sacrificing a major league Baseball career, to go on a mission to go to BYU and to follow the church. That ends with him getting injured at BYU after serving a mission and kind of graduating from byu, having no idea what he's going to do with his life. And of course, what else would an orthodox believing Mormon do but become a seminary teacher? Right. So Mark Osland, convert to the Mormon Church, returned missionary, ex star athlete, becomes a seminary institute teacher. And I think he does it for like 7ish years. We can ask him. Long story short, he does that in Utah County.

Carah Burrell [00:14:58] Are you saying that he is right in that waiting?

John Dehlin [00:15:02] He kind of is. So. Hello, Mark Oslin.

Marc Oslund [00:15:07] Hey. Yeah, you did it right, John? That's really nice that you remembered all of that.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] What did I miss, Mark? What did I miss?

Marc Oslund [00:15:14] You nailed it. You did everything exactly perfectly.

Mark Haden on His Wedding

John Dehlin [00:15:17] Okay, well it's really good to have you on the show, except that we're having you on the show with some kind of sad, kind of. Well, I don't know, might be happy for you, but. But sad for me. Tiny bit traumatizing for me. Circumstances.

Carah Burrell [00:15:32] When I said exciting, Mark, all I meant is that I get to go see Rachel this weekend. Yeah, not a carrot, your good circumstances, but just gonna go see my homegirl Rachel.

Marc Oslund [00:15:43] No, honestly, I totally, I totally get what you're saying. Yeah, it's, it's definitely, it's just fascinating. Yeah. Sad, interesting, happy, relief. All of it. It's kind of all of it. So yeah, whatever your response, listeners and

John Dehlin [00:15:57] viewers have no idea what we're talking about.

Carah Burrell [00:15:58] So tell us what those emotions are.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Yeah, yeah, take us back, Mark. Well, I guess we should just say that Mark has been summoned to a disciplinary council to appear on October 9, which is of course four days away because you know, if your eternal salvation is at stake, four days is plenty of notice to prepare to find witnesses, et cetera. October 9th at 2pm at a steak center. Do you want to tell people which steak center, Mark?

Mark Osland Has Been Called to a Disciplinary Council

Marc Oslund [00:16:23] Yeah, we're in the American Fork Central Stake, so right there on. I don't even know what street that is, but whatever main area, like as you're coming up through American Fork on your way to like Highland Alpine. We're right there.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Well, yeah, and. And for me it's a little bit traumatizing because I've been excommunicated by the Mormon Church. I have attended the vigils of many, many people who've been excommunicated, including Kate Kelly, including Bill. Real well, actually I couldn't attend Kate's, but I attended some ordained Women stuff, but definitely Sam Young and Bill Real and, and way too many other people.

Marc Oslund [00:16:57] It's.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] It's one of the worst things about the Mormon Church and there are a lot of bad things about the Mormon Church, but one of the worst things about the Mormon church is its habit of silencing its critics. And our beloved friend Mark Osland is. Is being summoned to disparate council to be excommunicated. So Mark, if you want to take us back and let's break this down and, and we want to know one thing how we can support you, but let's give you the mic and, and tell us anything you want to tell us.

Marc Oslund [00:17:29] Yeah, thank you. No, honestly, I think the most significant thing is just feeling like people see me still as a good person person. Look, we know, we know the major role of excommunication and, and they try to rebrand it into whatever, you know, they call it now, like withdrawal of membership to make it sound more palatable. But the, the major purpose is to separate.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:17:48] The wolves from the sheep and, and being deemed a. Basically a terrible influence, somebody to watch out for. I mean, John, you know this. The way that people talk about you is a. Literally like you are Satan, like you are possessed by Satan. You are directly operating under his influence. And so having that is I think, the hardest, the single hardest thing, you know, being branded that way. So the more people can recognize, like literally nothing's different about me. I mean, maybe I swear a little bit more, and by maybe I mean I definitely do. But like the, the core of who I am and why we're here is the exact same thing that led me to teaching seminary was actually the same thing that led me to Mormonism, which is I want people to feel loved and welcomed and like there's hope for them in their, in the life. In their life. And so anyway, yeah, going back, you know what led us here? Well, you know, I was teaching seminary. I.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] How many years? It was seven years. Seven years you taught. So you graduated from byu?

Marc Oslund [00:18:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] You're a kick ass. I'm gonna just say it. You're a kick ass seminary teacher for seven years. Go back and watch Mark Oslin's episode Carrots. It's one of the greats, right?

Carah Burrell [00:18:58] One of my favorite things, Mark, is when you spoke at especially for Truth and you're speaking like about anger and like giving all these women a voice and stuff, and you still had this like really cool teacher presence. And I could tell that you were. I could tell you probably were an amazing empathetic. Intelligent, thoughtful seminary teacher or the church. And like that good hearted man is so there. It's just not with the same beliefs that maybe you got into seminary with. I love seeing you speak it, especially for truth.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Yeah, yeah. And I heard great things as well. And Mark, one of the things that really came through in our interview with you is that you got in trouble with the CES system for being too effective. The kids loved you so much, it engendered jealousy and envy, and you were kind of punished for doing your job and trying to keep these kids in the church. And that's just up, up through you deciding to leave slash get kicked out of ces.

Marc Oslund [00:19:59] That's exactly it.

John Givens on Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:20:00] And, and so take us back to whatever you want to do. Yeah, but then, you know, but, but, you know, prior to your interview on Mormon Stories podcast, I don't know that an excommunication was necessarily in the cards. No, let take us through whatever part you want to.

Marc Oslund [00:20:16] Yeah. Thanks, guys. And I appreciate your kindness. You've both been so generous to me, and I hope you know it's mutual. Like, I do feel friendship in, in that which, which has been mentioned by my stake president as, you know, don't forget your old friends. Don't forget them. Because John, he. He makes a lot of money and it's like, okay, anyway, anyway, we have, we have so many things that could be said about that, but the genesis of what really led me here, I mean, at its core, to summarize 11 hours of a podcast, which Kara has done numerous times on, on Tick Tock, is I loved my students and I wanted them to feel whole. And Mormonism was breaking them and they were wanting to die, and they hated talking to their families, and they were, again, suicidality just through the roof. And unfortunately, kids that I taught who did die by suicide and, And I'm watching this pain and I'm seeing, I'm having kids that would come out to me and, and the pain that they feel as being a gay Mormon. And I just thought, this can't be this way. Right. And so I became very, you know, an advocate for them where I genuinely just wanted them to feel like they were loved. Not even advocating against Mormon teachings. I just wanted kids to know that they belonged. That's what led me to Mormonism. That's what led me to seminary. And because I was, I think, good at it, I got on the radar of some jealous individuals and they felt threatened. And so eventually I had a, A warning letter. Hey, if you don't change some really stupid Things like wear a suit coat every day and don't say the word do. That was the one that stood out to me most. Basically, don't be a normal human because your kids like you too much. And so I made those changes. But at this time, I'm like, why am I getting in trouble? I was so scrupulous. I had so much guilt and shame that I felt on my mission, for my life, post or pre Mormonism. It was just so much. And eventually I thought, I am literally contorting myself in every human possible way to be, to be who you want me to be, and it's never enough. And at that point, we also had a miscarriage that kind of broke me in my view of God. And why are you punishing me, God, for giving up literally everything for you? And at that point I thought, well, if I'm, if I'm going to be in trouble for just contorting the hell out of myself, I might as well find myself again and come back to who I really am. And so in that process of doing that, I became, you know, John, what you've deemed a Givens Mormon, a progressive Mormon, Somebody who, you know, I felt kindly. Holland would say it's friendly fire, right, based on his latest BYU talk. But I would say, hey, we don't have to do this thing. Nelson, making it a big deal to not say the word Mormon. That's, that's unnecessary. It's hurting people. You, you had this talk in 1984 or whatever. Why are you doubling down now that you're the leader of the church? And anyway, so I began to kind of poke holes in some of this. I felt stupid arguments, but never the substantive ones. The substantive arguments meaning like polygamy or the first vision, I still wanted to instill faith in those while also basically acknowledging and saying, hey, there's a lot of messiness that we don't talk about. Well, that got me on the radar for a different reason. And eventually my advocacy for LGBTQ equality, posting, you know, putting a rainbow Jesus picture in my classroom, all of those things got me on the radar as being somebody who's, who's leading kids astray. Kids are like, I don't want to go on a mission because I don't feel ready for it. And then they would tell their parents and their parents would tell leaders and I would get in trouble. So all of that led me to eventually, you know, being transferred to what, six different schools in seven years and then eventually saying, I have to quit for my well being. I can't have a forever final warning letter threatening me for the rest of my career in seminary. So I quit. I went to a different job. It's been fantastic. They're so good. And. And then I started pursuing a degree in social work, which is what I'm doing, you know, on the side. I get to do therapy. It's been great. But as part of the social work ethics and as part of, I think, being a normal damn human, we need to advocate for basic human rights, including women's rights, including LGBTQ rights, including the rights of people of color, specifically black people, who were banned for years and years and years in Mormonism. In so many ways, any marginalized group, you name them, they have been harmed by Mormonism. And so I started speaking out more and more about that now that I don't have the obligation of being employed by the church and threatening me with that. And, you know, I lose half of my Instagram followers, who are all my really sweet seminary students and their parents. And in this process of speaking out in, you know, the midst of Black Lives Matter movement and reelection in the United States, that was really problematic. I just felt like people were misunderstood, interpreting my heart, and they were saying that I was led astray, that I was an evil person, that I was not, you know, worthy of this, this, this. And I thought, I need. I need to clear my name. I need it to be very, very known who I am at my core. And right before John, we had been on. We had had our podcast together. One of my best friends, my mission trainer, was actually fired from teaching seminary. And I just thought, we can't. We can't do this. My friend Laura had had a terrible experience, which she shared. My mission trainer, who I'm deep friends with, had a terrible experience. And I'm like, we need to. We need to talk about this. And then, yeah, have Mormon stories. We talk pretty openly about where I'm at. Surprise to you. I was still on the records of the church, largely because I didn't want to validate the process that they put in place now, which. And I'm cheap, and I don't want to pay a notary. I've already spent enough damn money in Mormonism. Why can't I just get a discount on removing my records? So I keep speaking out. My stake president has tried to reach out to me, and I have no interest in talking to him because it was just going to incriminate me, and it's just not worth my time. I'm extremely busy. He sent me invitations to have meetings And I've declined them. One of them was kind of condescending. And I sent him a very long letter or email in response to. Of how rude and unkind he was and in some of his assumptions.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] I want to take that a tiny bit slowly. By the way, he mentioned Laura and you didn't speak up.

Carah Burrell [00:26:52] I have to go. Oh, Laura. My favorite Mormon Stories interview of all time. So much. Sorry. He's like, name dropped. My favorite. Rachel, Laura, Mark. They're just the dynasty.

The Descendants' Plan to Get Rich

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Yeah. Yeah. Someday we're going to start a company where all of us are working together.

Marc Oslund [00:27:09] Yeah, that's the plan. Right. According to my. According to my stake president, we all have a giant plan to get. Get really rich, ignoring the fact that general authorities are making well above six figures and, you know, five private jets and all of that. So.

Mark Smith on His Loss of Faith

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Okay, so. So let's back up. So. So you lose. You.

Marc Oslund [00:27:25] You.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] Let's say you just totally lost your faith around when. How long ago?

Marc Oslund [00:27:29] Honestly, I was. I people. And I got to clarify this because too many people have said, you know, you were a liar, you were deceiving kids you didn't believe in, you were teaching seminary.

Carah Burrell [00:27:38] That's.

Marc Oslund [00:27:39] That's like, it's. Honestly, I believe fully. Rachel, my wife has been very adamant that Mark has believed it fully, including after I quit seminary. But then I started listening specifically to Bill Real, because he, you know, his approach, very direct, very clear. I needed somebody to be very bold. His letter that he wrote to the general authorities, basically saying, hey, here's all the problems and here's how you fix it, was everything that I was trying to teach in seminary. And the more I did that, then I started listening to Mormon stories, and I'm like. And then I fully waded into the CES letter and I allowed myself to not have to justify it anymore. So I'm going to give you maybe four months, three months after I quit seminary, which was September of 19.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] Okay, so a couple years ago, you lost your faith completely and you kind of stopped attending then, right?

Marc Oslund [00:28:34] Yeah, I was actually. The irony was we had just had our little baby, Remy, and Rachel was super sick and not feeling good. And so we didn't go to church for a while. And I needed the mental break because it was exhausting. So technically, I wasn't going to church basically from January 2019 up until September.

I Was Excommunicated by My Stake President

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Okay, so when do you think you first kind of got on the radar by your bishop or stake president? When do you think that first started? And what. What was the cause of you kind of being on their radar.

Marc Oslund [00:29:02] Yeah, good question. The first contact I had with my stake president about this was I was actually driving to a company softball game. We were playing in a league out here in Utah Valley. And he said, hey, I need to talk to you. And I'm like, I. About what? Like is about me not coming. Okay, whatever. And he just kept pushing and pushing. And finally, I'm like, I don't want the back and forth. So this was probably October of 2019. I had. Sorry. Of. Wait, was it 2019? It might have been way back then. It might have been 2020. The timeline's fuzzy, but the point being, the first, the genesis of it was my commentary about the way that LDS faith has treated black people throughout the history of the church.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] Where were you commenting?

Marc Oslund [00:29:48] I was commenting largely on Instagram. I was.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] You had an Instagram account as a seminary, right?

Marc Oslund [00:29:54] It was just. Yeah, yeah. And it was just my personal account that, you know, students would follow. I wouldn't. I wouldn't do anything necessarily about it, but, yeah, my personal account.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] And let me just be clear. We have a lot of non Mormon listeners, and they're like, excommunicated. Like, isn't that something the Catholic Church did, you know, two millennia, a millennia ago? Like, and they're like, and for what? Like, did you rape a child? Like, what did you do? And what people, you know, just don't understand is what it takes in 2021 to get excommunicated. So we all know that the Mormon Church has a racist history, that the Book of Mormon is, like, structurally racist. No one in the world can argue with that. And that the Mormon Church kept people of color from being full members in good standing up until 1976. So for, like, 150 years, the church was structurally, officially racist, and it continues to be racist. So you were talking about that on Instagram.

Marc Oslund [00:30:53] Yeah. And they know, obviously, my fault. This. This is, I think, the major concern of. Of my role as a former teacher. They know that kids follow me. They know that I have influence. For what it's worth, I think the majority of kids that are still true believers are. Have unfollowed me. I literally. I lost a thousand followers last year, and I didn't have that many followers. I still don't have that many followers. I lost half my. My followers. Because what I was saying. And the important thing was, originally, I started in the very kind and direct way. There was no desire to lead necessarily people astray. It was, can we just finally talk openly? Guys, I have wanted to share this with you, as my students and as people that have followed me for years, I haven't been able to. Can we finally just talk openly about the problems in seminary? It was so that we can resolve them and so you can stay. Then it became for me, and whatever you do with it, so be it. If you leave, awesome. It's gonna be good for your health if you stay. Okay. Like, that's not a decision that I would necessarily make, but I get it. And then the more pushback I got, the more I said, you know what? This is super unhealthy. And then it started becoming. And you know what? We hurt black people. We hurt women. We've hurt every single marginalized group, including. Including LGBTQ people, which is. Which is so huge now. Including just dozens and dozens of students that I've talked to and people here in a therapy clinic that I've talked to and say, guys, the only way that we can make change is by disrupting their membership numbers and their tithing revenue. And that's when I began to kind of say, you know what? If you really care about this issue, I think it's time for you to reevaluate if you should be attending Mormonism. And obviously, that got me in trouble.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] So for years. Go ahead.

Carah Burrell [00:32:45] Just saying. And that got you in trouble. You are. I made it a really poor analogy last night, but I'm going to repeat it again. If anyone saw the John Larsen episode last night, that if you do anything in the church, the church is like the people in Jurassic park and the members are like the T. Rex and they can't do anything movement. If you talk about the things, people are going to be like, whoa, we're talking about something, and they're gonna. They're gonna notice. So you're not supposed to talk about the things. You're supposed to just, like, sleep it under the rug. That's the first cardinal rule of Mormonism.

Marc Oslund [00:33:13] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] And it's so weird that in the Mormon Church, you're. If you're more likely to be not excommunicated as a sexual predator.

Marissa Gets Excommunicated for Speaking Out About the Mormon Church

Marc Oslund [00:33:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Than you are if you speak the truth about the church's problems on the Internet, you're more. You're more at risk for being excommunicated for speaking the truth about the church on the Internet than you are for being a sexual predator. And Thousand children.

Marc Oslund [00:33:40] A thousand percent. That's exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:33:42] In the hierarchy of the church, those kids.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] There are tens of thousands of men and some women who have sexually molested children, young girls, young boys who were never excommunicated. Even rapists. And yet, you know, you start saying, oh, my gosh, I'm concerned about LGBT people. I'm concerned about racism in the church. I want to help these youth. I don't want suicides. Let me start talking about just a few of the factual problems. So that's two years ago. Keep going.

Marc Oslund [00:34:11] No, but, I mean, that's. That's the core, right? That's. That's the. I think the disgusting. It's not even an underbelly, but for the members, it feels like an underbelly where we kind of pretend that that doesn't happen. That's the whole point. We sweep it under the rug. It's not real. They're still good people. They've tried their best. You know, somebody comes in and they report being, you know, abused, and the first thing they do is they contact the church's, like, hotline, which is a. A legal firm. It's not to protect the victim. Right?

John Dehlin [00:34:42] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:34:43] It's tragic. And then. And then here I am, where I'm like, guys, this is the point that I want to make.

Carah Burrell [00:34:47] And.

Marc Oslund [00:34:47] And I'm still weighing. I think I'm gonna attend. I think it's on Saturday. Whatever. I. I don't even know days anymore, but I think it's on Saturday. I think I'll attend. I'm not gonna fight for my membership because I don't. I don't believe it, and they don't have any power over me. And what is this? It doesn't mean anything.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] But let me just. Let me just be clear. So two years ago, you start speaking up about factual things about the church that are matters of conscience. How does it proceed from there to now? Let's be honest. Your Instagrams are pretty strong where you call the church out, however, it's like Martin Luther, like a modern Martin Luther. You're calling the church out on the ways it harms people, and you're speaking the truth. But take us from then now as to how it. How it escalated.

Marc Oslund [00:35:32] Yeah. Thanks for rescuing me. I get so caught up. But I. I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Rachel's online, and she says, remy says, hi, dad.

Marc Oslund [00:35:40] Dad. Hi, Remy. He's. He's probably like, I.

Carah Burrell [00:35:45] If I get started talking about Rachel, she's the real Talking about Rachel show.

Marc Oslund [00:35:50] Yeah. I love that. Remy's a gift man. He's. He's. He means so much. Which is part of the reason why I. I started speaking out so clearly right around that time. I mean, watching and holding my kid and thinking of the ways that I was harmed by Mormonism, thinking of the ways that my students were harmed, thinking of the ways that, in general, Mormonism has harmed people in society. Has it just fueled my fire? And so it became much more critical, and it became much more pointed, and it became much more intent. Like, hey, if you think you can make this work, you can't. And the reason I know that is because I couldn't make it work. You can fight for change. You think you can fight. I literally was a seminary teacher. Can you think of people who have more influence? There's very. There's few. But can you think of somebody that has more influence? No, I could make literally no change. In fact, the more change I tried to make, the more they clamped down, which I think we saw in this last conference. And so I just started speaking up more and more, refusing to be silenced. I just. I think they wanted me to be really quiet, and I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. I. My stake president had said, hey, I got a call from a member of the 70 that was down, you know, in, like, the south part of Utah Valley.

Carah Burrell [00:37:05] He.

Marc Oslund [00:37:05] He has printed out pictures of all of your Instagram stories.

Carah Burrell [00:37:09] Oh, my gosh.

The Mormon Church's Strengthening the Members Committee

Marc Oslund [00:37:10] And they're pretty problematic. And so.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] So basically, the church has this thing called the Strengthening the Members Committee, where these apologists will literally track the online and private activities of its members. They've been doing this since the 70s. It's like its own CIA, FBI, NSA, Gestapo kind of bureau, Kremlin kind of thing. And they literally have hundreds, if not thousands of employees and. Or volunteers tracking Kara's behavior on TikTok Mine. And they're. They gather these huge folders of members of all the things you've ever said anywhere, and then they send it to your bishop or stake president, and they say, hey, there's somebody in your congregation that you ought to look at a little bit. Right. Yep. So anyway.

Carah Burrell [00:37:59] Exactly.

Marc Oslund [00:38:00] It. No, you nailed it.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] And that's in the members committee. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:38:03] And that's exactly how strengthening them. I felt really strengthened from it, for sure. You know, but. Yeah, so I. Yeah, dude, The.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] The.

Marc Oslund [00:38:13] Oh, this is a big thing, by the way, for my dad, where he's just like, they'll tell you they love you till they're blue in the face, and you will feel nothing but just. Just vile coldness from them.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] And Margaret Toscano called her Display council being raped by Care Bears.

Marc Oslund [00:38:27] Damn. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] She. That's how she described it.

Marc Oslund [00:38:30] That's it. I mean, that's the feeling.

John Dehlin [00:38:32] Yeah. Sorry, I don't mean to get too heavy, but.

Marc Oslund [00:38:34] No, but that's. That's the feeling, right? It's this. This is emotional betrayal. Even for somebody who. Who I am, you know, I'm not going to go and ask for people to advocate for me. So anyway, he's. He told me about that. He said, they're pretty damning. We had a conversation about racism. He said, how long ago.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] How long ago was this?

Marc Oslund [00:38:50] This was just two years ago.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Still? Or are we still.

Marc Oslund [00:38:53] This was. This was early, you know, it's either end of 20, 20, 19, or beginning of 2020.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Okay, so you're talking to him a couple. Okay, sorry. We're still.

Marc Oslund [00:39:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so anyway, he. He was like, hey, you've said that, like, the leaders of the church are racist. I don't agree. And I'm like, what do you mean you don't agree? Like, it's pretty objectively clear when you pull up almost any Brigham Young quote that regarding race, that it's deeply racist. And then you pull up all the other treatment of specifically, again, black people. And that should be named clearly. But I don't know how you can argue against it being racist. And then he said something along the lines of, oh, they're not racist. You are the racist one. For continuing to talk about race. We've moved past it. This is. This is racism for you to continue to say that the church, it denies black people and it doesn't help black people. You were the racist one. I'm like, okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] And to this day, the Book of Mormon teaches that Native Americans were cursed with dark skin for wickedness and that current Native Americans maintain the curse of the dark skin because of the wickedness of their ancestors.

Marc Oslund [00:39:57] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:39:58] I asked my mom about that this weekend. Do you want to know what her answer was?

John Dehlin [00:40:00] What was her answer?

Carah Burrell [00:40:01] I was really curious because my mom believes in a literal Book of Mormon. Happened in the heartland of America. No other apologetics. Native Americans are literally. They were cursed. And I'm like, okay, even if you believe that, how do you deal with the racism that comes from that? And her answer was, God's racist. Look at the Jews, look at God. Always. God's just racist. So I'm like, okay, he has favorites.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] I mean, my heavenly Father has favorites.

Marc Oslund [00:40:24] Well, and that's makes me feel so much better.

Carah Burrell [00:40:26] I'm coming back to church right now.

Marc Oslund [00:40:27] That's it. That's the end result. The end result is either prophets are racist or God is racist. And at the time, I was unwilling to say God was racist. And so it's so much easier. And I actually told my stake president, I said, who would you rather have be racist? Would you rather have God be racist or a prophet? And Right.

John Smith on the Problem of Religious Advocacy

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Probably God. I think the church would say God legitimately.

Marc Oslund [00:40:48] And that's, that's absolutely the sentiment. Whenever somebody teaches this in seminary, it's, hey, you know, God has his will and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, point being, that was the same thing. And I just knew, I've had these conversations for years in seminary. I knew I wasn't getting anywhere. I just kind of listened to what he was saying. Ultimately he said, hey, you got to stop posting because we don't want to hear it anymore. You're going to get in trouble. And I said, yeah, yeah, I'm probably not going to stop. And that's how we left it.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] And that was two years ago.

Marc Oslund [00:41:19] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Okay. What's happened between then and now?

Marc Oslund [00:41:23] Yeah. And so between then and now, I just continue to speak out. I think in during a pandemic when all we really have to connect with society is as a phone and Instagram and then seeing kind of the Black Lives Matter, in particular, that uprising and just the general sentiment of a majority of people that are in my generation feeling, hey, there's some systemic major issues that are taking place. We really need to talk about this. So now we lump in kind of the problems with America and we say, well, how the hell do we change America? Yeah, you knew where I was going, right?

Carah Burrell [00:42:01] Do we ourselves?

John Dehlin [00:42:02] What do you say?

Marc Oslund [00:42:02] Yeah, I forgot Kara's on the podcast. We don't have to do that anymore. So, yeah, how do we change this huge thing? And my thought was, let's just focus on what's in front of us, which is a church. If we can't change a damn church that's run by soft, old, frail white men from Utah and Idaho, that's it. If we can't change that, we can't change society. That was my vision. And so anything that was being talked about social media wise regarding needing to change systems of oppression and harm for any marginalized group, I'm like, cool. Mormonism has a problem with that and that and that. Let's start attacking Mormonism. Let's start rebuilding Mormonism. And if we can do that, then we can move on to bigger and more important things, which is our country. Right. So again, obviously, and understandably, that puts me on the radar.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] And Mark, I'm just going to say that, that if we want societal Change, you have to ask what are the social structures that are barriers to social change? And if you don't identify, let's just say high demand or fundamentalist religions as sources of obstruction of positive social change, I don't think you're really looking or thinking very hard. So that's why I've dedicated my. There's a lot of cool things all of us can do, right? All of us. Why even spend a word talking about Mormonism publicly? Well, because 4 or 5 million people are impacted by it and multiple senators, multiple members of the House of Representatives, a presidential candidate, judges, CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. If you can help change Mormonism, you can literally have an impact on the world. And where else are you going to start? So I think it's solid, I think.

Marc Oslund [00:43:50] Thanks, John. And I mean, what, what am I gonna do as a. Look, I'm a social worker. We talk about macro level advocacy and eradicating systems of oppression on behalf of our clients. What am I supposed to do if I see them being harmed by the institution that runs this entire state in which I live? And this will be quiet.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] Natasha got hit with this because it's literally in the ethical code of mental health fighters to speak up for social justice. It's literally your job that's right to do what you're doing.

Marc Oslund [00:44:19] To ignore that would mean I'm an unethical and therefore in theory, now remember, Utah's a different beast, but in theory, somebody who can't be licensed. If I'm not doing this and speaking up and advocating, to me, that's vastly more important for licensure than appeasing that organization. Right? And so I, I just, I couldn't wrap my brain around the concept of being quiet. And specifically, this is my home base. This is. Look, Mormonism is not my home. It was my adopted home and it was a traumatic home. But this is what I know. This is where I live. I've given so much of my life to it. To just say I'm not on board anymore, I'm just going to leave quietly. No, I'm not going to do that. I refuse to do that. And then to advocate for my clients and say, by the way, you're harming literally every single person that we see, that I see in particular, but that our clinic sees, every single person is harmed by Mormonism in some way in a substantive, it's substantive, in deep, profound, meaningful ways. And so no, I'm not going to be quiet, and no, I'm not going to be quiet for My students, who I still. Now, even if they're believers, who I still adore, and my advocacy for them is to make their faith something that doesn't hurt them. That's what I want to do. I don't want them to be hurt anymore. If they believe it, whatever. I don't. It doesn't. Look, it's not true. I mean, that's abundantly clear. But fine, if you believe it, it doesn't hurt anyone for you to believe that the Book of Mormon is true, necessarily. However, if you truly, truly, truly believe what it's taught and all the implications of it, there will be harm that is done to you and to society. And that's what my problem is with. Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] I love it. And we're having several social workers speak up and say, congratulations, Mark, for speaking up for marginalized, for the disenfranchised. It's. It's just really important.

Joseph Smith on Criticizing the Church

Marc Oslund [00:46:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] Yeah, so. So they track. They track you for a couple years. They. They collect evidence against you. By the way, there's so many Mormons that are like, wait, if you're gonna criticize. If you're gonna criticize the church, you should just leave.

Marc Oslund [00:46:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] You know, they don't realize that in every other civilized, you know, modern religious tradition, people criticize the church and you're fine. Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Jews, they all publicly criticize the church and there's no disciplinary action. So for Mormons, we're so used to. Oh, wait, you publicly criticize the church? Of course you deserve to be excommunicated. No, excommunication is barbaric. It's medieval, and it should be done away with. And it doesn't matter if you call the church a cult. Excommunication is still outrageous and ridiculous. Because if the church is God's one true church, that happens to be a trillion dollar organization, effectively by this point, God can take a little bit of criticism, can take it. Right?

Marc Oslund [00:47:13] That's it. That's it. I can't imagine a world where, like, I don't want to imagine this. And this is the world we all lived in, the waters we swim in in Mormonism, where, like, we can't even say that there's a problem. This. Look, I was teaching with the intent to instill faith, to keep people. In Mormonism, my great joy as a teacher was to have people come to me with their issues and concerns and say, yeah, but Mormonism is still good. That's what I wanted. We can't even discuss the issue. We can't even broach the. The concepts, let alone be clear in our, in our frustrations with it. And so I, I just. If we can't even hear it, I mean, that it speaks so much, the unhealthiness of the organization.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] It makes God and the prophets seem like wusses. Like fragile. Yeah, super fragile.

Carah Burrell [00:48:16] And like we were talking about with John Larsen's podcast last night about like the William Martin handcart companies. It is honestly a through line of any high demand religion, whatever you want to call it, cult dogmatic authoritarian system where the people in charge, like with the pioneers, would make a decree and there are people at the bottom that are either going to be harmed or served or one way or another, they have their life in the hands of

John Dehlin [00:48:38] these leaders that they put their blind faith in.

Carah Burrell [00:48:41] That they put their blind faith in. Exactly. And if anyone makes any kind of ruckus, they're excommunicated, they're beaten, they're extradited or whatever. That the people at top, they liked to remain in that, you know, don't ask questions, don't look at the man behind the booth. Everything is good in Zion. And it's people like you and John and Natasha and so on. People who are agitators is what I just like to call it, just agitating, saying, like, there's something wrong here. And they like to say, no, like everything's fine, just hush, hush. These are defactors. These are anti Mormons. These are people who just want to crush your faith. Like, I want nothing more than people to live the healthiest version of Mormonism because every single right and benefit that Mormons enjoy today are from people who were agitators at one point. Yeah, we do not want to live in the same type of Mormonism that they were living at in the 1800s.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Mormonism does not change without social pressure. It does not change.

Marc Oslund [00:49:34] And that, that is exactly what makes me want to speak out. Where I'm like, guys, people, people think that I have this, like, agenda against Mormons and that's not true. Like, people who I deeply love. Let me give you a few. My entire Rachel's entire side of the family who are Mormon and will be Mormon and who I have no problem being Mormon. I never, ever would make, want to make them feel like I don't love them because of their Mormonism. My students, who I will forever adore, who, when they say that they can't be in contact with me because I'm too angry and I'm too bitter, it breaks my heart because I still care about them as humans. I. Mormonism is not the issue. The issue is the harm that Mormonism does. That's the problem. The reality, I think, is there is no Mormonism without the harm of Mormonism. Like, if you take away all the things that hurt people from Mormonism, what do you have left? You don't have the structure. It's gone. Which is why they. They fight against it. I just.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] They said everything that's good about Mormonism is not unique, and everything that's unique about Mormonism isn't good. That's right.

Marc Oslund [00:50:40] And so my intent, if you were to ask me whatever happens on Saturday or Sunday, whenever this is, and I attend, why are you doing this? I just want the harm to stop. And the best way I know how, based on all evidence and all history, is to make as big of a stink as possible, be as vocal as possible, give the church bad pr because they care infinitely more about bad pr, losing members and losing revenue than they do about changing because it's the right thing to do. And so I'm like, I will continue to expose and make you look bad, because that's what's going to get people to wake up, to either leave and stop the harm or for you to say, damn it, too many problems. We have to stop this because we're getting too much bad press, which is all of TikTok. Right, Kara? This is literally why TikTok is such a big deal.

Carah Burrell [00:51:29] Yeah, we'll see if TikTok gets shut down this week, like Facebook and Instagram, we'll know who did it.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] Exactly. So, okay, so tell us just now, let's just go to the past few weeks or months. Tell us the. Tell us the process where the church puts you on the path to a disciplinary council or excommunication. How did that begin? Just in the past few weeks or.

Stake President's email to a Mormon

Marc Oslund [00:51:53] Yeah, so my stake president reached out, man. I visited my mom and dad, who moved from LA to Georgia to Atlanta just recently. And I was out there, I'll say, a couple months ago, and I got an email from my stake president. We were kind of there under some. Some tough family circumstances. And he said, hey, I'd really like to meet with you. And I responded like, no, I'd rather not. And he said, it's really important. Can we please meet? And I said, no, I'd rather not. And he's like, why won't you meet with me? What's going on? Like, he basically asked some question along the lines of like, are you, like, losing your truest friends? Like, you know, me inferring him as if he was my friend and, and all of that. Yeah. For John de Lin. And he, in fact, John D. That was, that was a joke. We went out to lunch, right. And he. Are people in my stake and elsewhere can't say John Dehlin. It's like Voldemort. You can't say the whole thing. And so just say his damn name. There's no consequence that's going to come. Satan's gonna appear, you know, if you say it. But anyway, John D. John D. And, and multiple people, like high councilors in our state won't say John de Lin. They'll say John D. And so anyway, it's really weird.

John Dehlin [00:52:59] They do not realize how much of an honor it is to like, to, to, to have done whatever you've done, such, you know, speaking out for the same marginalized people you are, such that, like, everyone else is warned to stay away from you. Number one, that's an honor because it means you've been standing up for truth and justice. Number two, they're marketing for me, so thank you.

Marc Oslund [00:53:19] Right, exactly. And that's the thing where they're like, do you just want to get rich and famous? I'm like, no, I want the fucking harm to stop. That's what I want. This isn't, this, this isn't complicated.

Carah Burrell [00:53:28] It isn't complicated.

Marc Oslund [00:53:29] Stop hurting people and we will shut the hell up. Maybe, I mean, the truth, we could talk about the truth claim just because it's kind of fun. But, but the reality is we're not going to be speaking with the pointedness, with the urgency. I don't think if people weren't literally wanting to die because of what is being taught. And anyway, so we went back and forth and, and I kind of sat on it and it felt very, just very Mormon. That's the way I would use. It's just very passive, very cutting, very, you know, this benevolent patriarchy concept where they smile and they make you feel like it's your fault and, and all of that. And I woke up the next day and I was just pissed. I, I, this is what, this is my, all of my teammates at BYU know this. All of, like, I talked to my baseball coach. I'm like, hey, are we still cool? He's like, dude, look, I believe what I believe. I know you're gonna do what you're gonna do. Like, I still love you. My teammates know that if you get on my bad side, I will be your worst enemy. My idol in life is Kobe Bryant. The More that he got talked to, the better he did. This is what I am and this is who I am. So the more pressure I get, the bigger dick I become. Which is why people think I'm a big monster on social media. But truly I just want to hang out with my 2 year old and cry and talk about all of these like beautiful life moments. But anyway, I start speaking out and I, and I email him that next morning and it was like a stream of conscious email, took me like 30 minutes. I don't remember how many words, but it was like I went through every point that he made. It was like a 12 point email and I was like deeply proud of it. Including things like, you think you're my friend. You don't know anything about me. You don't know that I had cancer. You don't know what kind of cancer it was. You don't know where I am right now. You don't know why I quit seminary. You don't know why my family lives in Georgia. You don't know the first thing about me. And so to pretend that you care about me as a friend because we served on a committee trek committee together is disingenuous and a lie. That was the, that was the, the basically the thesis statement of you're not my friend and you're not on my team. And then I went through some other points that I just like everything you said was stupid. And so he eventually responded in a kind way and said hey, I'm sorry. Like, you know, my mom's having some hard times too. Your mom's having smart times. Like I understand. And then I haven't heard a word from him since he like commented on a Facebook post when I, I said something about how Natasha's excommunication was stupid and he basically try to do damage control for our stake. Hey, if you have problems, please talk to me, et cetera, et cetera. Haven't talked to him up until, I

John Dehlin [00:56:03] mean I have to say the church has probably been super worried about you coming out because you know, you were well known at BYU and you've been an important part of so many students lives. I can't tell you how many students commented or emailed saying Mark was my seminary teacher. He changed my life. Yeah, he's one of the coolest people I know. So it can't be that the church was super excited to go through with this. Right? But they had to decide that the, the benefits of cutting you off at some point outweighed the, the costs of cutting you off. And giving you attention, you know, and

Marc Oslund [00:56:41] they're hedging their bets. And this is why I actually thought, because from that point, it's been a couple months, I haven't heard from it. And I. And I kind of had the impression that he was thinking, you know, maybe if I just lay off, things will get better. And to be honest, it probably would have gotten better. I've already. I feel so far down in my healing from Mormonism that I speak out when it's egregious. But truthfully, I just want people to feel whole, Especially as a therapist, I can hold space for people who are Mormon. I would never. Self determination is another massive, massive ethic. And I would never intentionally lead a client out of Mormonism if that's not what they were wanting. I would never, ever do that. And so the more time that goes on, the more experience I get with that, the less need I feel to speak out. And so if they would have just let off, I still would have said things for the rest of forever, and I still will, but it wouldn't have been as prevalent. It's already not as prevalent. I want to move on to other things. There's bigger and more important things in my life than Mormonism. And so I just would have thought, yeah, maybe you guys are gonna let off. And then Sunday, we were making. I think Rachel was making a cake or something. And we have a ring doorbell, which we get for this exact purpose. Somebody, you know, rang our ring doorbell at 4:00 clock on the dot. On the dot. And I'm like, conference is still going, man. I know that conference is still a thing. Like, you guys left early. Two guys in white shirts. I saw a letter in their hand. What the hell else is it gonna be, Right? Then we leave, we go to our. So we don't answer the door. Because I'm just like, no, I want to make you guys work for it. And then, you know, we go to a friend's house and they came by three more times that night and we literally couldn't answer because that video of each. Yeah, yeah. So I have pictures, right? I'm like, hey, there you are.

A member of the Stake Presidency's letter to his wife

John Dehlin [00:58:29] And then you're sending me photos.

Marc Oslund [00:58:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:58:32] Again, they came again.

Marc Oslund [00:58:33] Exactly. I'm pretty sure this happened. And then, you know, Monday, I was doing, like clinical sessions here at Mindful, and I checked the ring doorbell. When I got back, I'm like, oh. Sure enough, there they were. Rachel was. That's when she was making a cake. We were making food the other time. Then she was making A cake for our nephew's birthday. Anyway, point is, she didn't answer the door. It was a different member, actually. A member of the stake presidency who I really love truly. And it. The hardest part of all of this is gonna have to look at him, and he's. He's. He will love me and will be so kind to me, but I know he's hurt from it, and that's sad because I respect him deeply.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] System's not people. At the end, he's. He's in a bad system and He's a victim. 100 he could defy.

Marc Oslund [00:59:13] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:59:14] So there's something on him. But at the end of the day, we're all. We've all been victims of the system.

Marc Oslund [00:59:19] And a genuinely kind, like, genuinely kind human. I don't have a real relationship with my stake president. I do with this individual. Another member of our stake presidency is like, in. In politics in my area. So that's kind of weird. But anyway, I saw it. They came by the ring doorbell, and then they didn't come by yesterday. And I'm like, either they already held it. I literally thought yesterday, maybe they held it and just made their decision. Or I'm going to get it in the mail. And then today at work, Rachel sends me a picture. It's like certified mail. They spent $4.33 to make sure I got it for this Sunday, and that's why I'm here today. Just a lot of consequence or coincidence is kind of putting us all right here right now in your first Q and A stream.

John Smith on Being Kicked Out of the Church

John Dehlin [00:59:58] And can we. And we're so great. Well, I mean, you know, when I reached out to you before, some people want to keep this stuff private.

Marc Oslund [01:00:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] I. I believe this is a sacred thing because family's involved and, you know, some people just want to lay low. So I, you know.

Marc Oslund [01:00:12] Yeah, let me validate what you said there. And because we had called, it was just for. I've been busy. It's been a crazy day. Every day is crazy, you know, but you did. You reached out and you were like, hey, are you okay? That was the first question you asked. And you asked, how's Rachel? You ask, what. What do you want? We don't want to pressure you. We want to support you however we can. And part of that, as you know, is bringing light. Bringing to light the barbarism of this, the ridiculousness that the only true church can't hear criticism from some random ass guy in Utah County, a convert with no ties.

John Dehlin [01:00:46] I sacrificed a lot for the church right from From a very young age. Like if you can't pay your dues. Right.

Marc Oslund [01:00:54] Yeah. If you can't give me the, at least like some grace. And maybe they thought we've given you years of grace and you haven't stopped. And okay, fine. I'm not going to be able to argue and say I didn't do anything wrong. I'm not going to say that. That what I said was I, I absolutely believe it's worthy of, from their perspective, of losing my membership in the church. Duh. Like, of course I, I said something like Nelson's a piece of like, yes, that is, I understand that.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] However, Mormon stories before you just, you just.

Marc Oslund [01:01:23] Yay. Yeah. And like, so look, look, like, I understand. I'm not going to argue that. What I'm arguing is. Yeah, what I'm arguing is I can't, like, we can't even criticize. I had to get louder and more vehement and more direct because you can't even hear any criticism. And the genesis of the criticism isn't some. John, you didn't, I didn't know you, man. I like, you aren't the one that led me out. And for people to be like, John was the one that did it. No, like, it's you guys. You guys did it.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] And so, yeah, it's so insulting for the church to put that on me or Kara or anyone.

Marc Oslund [01:02:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] Nobody who's smart and thoughtful would let some loser middle aged, you know, dad take them out of God's one true church. People arrive at that conclusion because of what Joseph Smith did, because of what Brigham Young did, because of what's in the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham or the Doctrine and Covenants or what the church has done over the years or how they've been treated recently. That's what causes people to leave the church. Not Mormon. Voldemort.

Marc Oslund [01:02:28] That's right. Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:02:30] The way that if anyone else listens to what Mark just described with his story and kind of why he got kicked out of the seminary program, it was for being too Christ. Like, there's, I'm sorry, that's like the simplest way to put it. You were too good of a teacher. You were teaching things that were in line with Christ that happened to be out of step with the church.

Marc Oslund [01:02:48] Like Kara.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Insulting to your intellect, Mark. Like, you're kind of a smart, confident guy. You're like, hey, what's some boomer in holiday Utah? What can I do? Let me see. What.

Carah Burrell [01:02:59] John, don't reduce yourself to that.

Marc Oslund [01:03:01] Jd, jd, I have I'm nearly. I'm nearing my second master. I have two master's degrees. I have degree from byu, the church's university, and humanities, where I'm able to learn how to hold other perspectives. Like, I. Like, I learned all of my critical thinking skills. Think of the irony of what I'm about to say from Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:03:23] Like, and now, then they tried to stifle it when it got too big. Okay, but Kara, you're exactly it. My intention, literally, I can pull up lessons for you. When I was teaching my last year and a half, that the intent was to say, guys, we don't need the church to be perfect. We just need to trust in Jesus. Jesus is perfect. The intent was to what seminary said, lead others to Christ. And I'm like, if that's the goal, I will knock that out of the park. As a consequence of that, I'm going to talk about how the church gets in the way of Jesus. And sadly for Mormonism and for Mormons, the church gets in the way of Jesus. I. Look, I don't believe. I want to believe in Jesus. I hope when we die, we get to meet this really dope Jewish carpenter. You know, that'd be awesome. But the truth is, like, I don't think there's an afterlife. I hope there is. But Jesus as a social radical, as somebody who affects change, as somebody who cares about the least among us, as somebody who cares about the one. That message is redeeming for humanity, I really believe that message is still potent and has value.

I Was Excommunicated from the Mormon Church

Carah Burrell [01:04:30] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:04:30] Mormonism doesn't do that. Right. Mormonism is loyalty to profits above all. And that's why I'm getting excommunicated. And that's the problem. Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Well, let's go ahead and read. Yeah. I don't. I don't mean to, like, dwell too much, but I just. I just, you know, the Mormon Church hates being the. One of the things the Mormon Church hates most is being called a cult. Yeah. And, you know, I'm just going to say this Mormon Church, if you want to stop being called a culture, one of the number one things you can do is stop excommunicating your critics. Because that is a sure sign. If there were ever a sure sign of anything. Right.

Marc Oslund [01:05:05] It's.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] It's. It's an organization that excommunicates its critics. That's the sure sign of the cult.

Carah Burrell [01:05:11] Nailed it.

Marc Oslund [01:05:12] Yeah. Like. Like I knew where you're going, Kara. I loved it. Oh, you're so witty. No, but that's it. Like, guys, I am literally nobody. I don't matter to. Like in the scheme of things. I understand I have in worth. I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is I am not in a big deal for Mormonism. I'm not. And if you guys are this threatened and worried about what I'm doing to protect whatever small ass following or people that care about me, like what an abomination. Which by the way, if you think you're going to protect, like I've already had, I've told maybe six people now, everybody on this, on this stream, every person I personally texted before this was like, hey, I'm resigning now I'm done.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] So like, yeah, for sure.

Marc Oslund [01:05:56] So if you think this is going to help, it's actually going to make it worse, you idiots.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] You know, I mean they're thinking separate the wheat from the tares. They're thinking we're, you know, we're the elect, you know, will be deceived and we gotta separate the wheat from the chaff kind of garbage. But who did Jesus, who did Jesus actually communicate? That's what I want to know.

Marc Oslund [01:06:14] Yeah. Just like the scriptures. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] So let's read this letter just because I want there to be a public record. And we'll post this with your permission on the website.

Carah Burrell [01:06:23] Near my God to thee.

Marc Oslund [01:06:25] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] Nearer my God to thee.

Marc Oslund [01:06:29] Okay. Exactly.

Dear Mark

John Dehlin [01:06:30] Dear Mark. So this is from the American Fork Utah Central Stake. Dear Mark, the Stake presidency is holding a membership council in your behalf. So of course they changed the, you know, name from Disciplinary Council to Membership council because it's so different. Right?

Marc Oslund [01:06:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well look, they don't want the bad pr. That's the whole thing. It makes them look bad when they say we're holding a dis. It's not discipline. This is because we love you.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] And it's literally identical.

Marc Oslund [01:06:58] Weird. Nothing changed other than the name.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:01] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] So it's a membership council in your behalf. The council will be held on October 9th at 2pm at the stake center the Cat. This council will consider your repeatedly acting in clear and deliberate public opposition to the church, its doctrine, its policies and its leaders. And you're showing a pattern of intentionally working to weaken the faith and activity of church members. Do you want to. Is there anything in that you want to respond to or are you going to say guilty?

Marc Oslund [01:07:29] This is, this is what I'm gonna. This is what I'm gonna tell. If I show up on Saturday. I'm like, you're right. Like I'm doing it. But the Point isn't what I'm doing. The point is why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because there's no other resort, because there's no other way for me to advocate for change. Because the only way that anyone will take this seriously is if we get big enough and public enough and take enough people down with us, for lack of a better word, and importantly this. I need to remind everybody personal feelings of myself on my own level and my work on the clinical side as an ethical and responsible therapist. I'm not leading people astray in a therapeutic setting. I would never do that. It's unethical. It could get, you know, whatever licensing, I could get in big time trouble, and I refuse to do that. If somebody walked into my office and said, mark, as, as my therapist, I want to stay in the church, can you help me? Yep, I can help you. I can help you. And I will. And I will help you. If a friend asked me, Mark, I'm really not agreeing with this. What do you think? Personally, I'm going to tell them what I think. And so anyway, that distinction is important. And I know I'm not getting excommunicated because, like Natasha, for speaking out as a therapist. It's very different. This is more recent for me. But I need that clear on the record that that's, that's my intent. And it's not to belittle people who believe this either. It's to stop the harm and to stop the tears and to stop the abuse that I see every day. Saw every day as a teacher and see every day as a clinician. That's why I'm doing it.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] Yeah. And they're always so tone deaf. They're accusing you of intentionally working to weaken the faith and activity of church members. They can't even be Christlike enough to, like, see what your heart is, to know who you are, why you're passionate about this, and to see, okay, yeah, he's critical, but his heart's in the right place and he's trying to help us. They can't even grow enough maturity to really just understand just the basics of what motivates you because you're not running around trying to take people out of the church. That's not who does that. No.

Marc Oslund [01:09:35] And if, if, if they were just to be like, mark, we totally understand why you're doing this, and we hear you. Here's an opportunity to speak to this person and this person. Guess what I'm not going to be doing on social media.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] Yeah. You know what?

Marc Oslund [01:09:48] I'm saying, but there's no method for feedback. And so we have to do it this way. It has to be this grassroots, ugly, messy. Maybe people can do it more gracefully than me, but the idea being like, I need to make a big enough stink so that people can see the problems. That's. That's the concept for me.

John Dehlin [01:10:05] Yeah. All right, let's continue. You are invited to attend the council to give your response. You may provide written statements from persons who could provide relevant information. You may invite such statements, persons to speak to the council in your behalf if approved in advance by the stake president. You may also invite your elders, quorum president to be present and provide support. Really quickly. Will you invite witnesses to testify on your behalf?

Mark on His Disciplinary Council

Marc Oslund [01:10:35] You know, I don't know. I think it's such a traumatic thing and I haven't even had enough time to process it. I don't think so. I think. Honestly, I think this is cut and dry. I don't think this is one like. Mark, do you still believe this? No. Mark, are you advocating about this? Yes. Mark, are you going to stop? No. Okay, then what are we doing? It's literally my opportunity to explain why we've had to go down this path, why it couldn't have just been a conversation. Let's just say in September. Let's just say when I was teaching seminary and I was trying to expose this, why I couldn't have my voice heard and changes made. If we could have at least had this addressed way back when. I'm talking about, like 2018, maybe 2017, we would have never ended up here. But the fact is, you guys can't handle any criticism. Therefore, this is the inevitable result. I know what's going to happen. I'm not going to fight it, not going to ask students to write letters of why I should stay. I don't even want to stay. It's going to be such a relief to be done.

John Dehlin [01:11:38] Right.

Marc Oslund [01:11:39] I just didn't want to pay for this stupid notary. What the hell is that? I'm too cheap.

Carah Burrell [01:11:43] So anyway, yeah, I think what you're saying is right. Right on that. At least you'll have an opportunity to explain that this is the only method that you know how to make change. Like we were talking about earlier, that unfortunately, this is a church that has a real strong structure that doesn't like to be challenged. And just speaking out is ethically. I just. I feel like that's just the kind of dude you are. Like, you can't sit still without helping and giving a voice. To the marginalized. Like, what else are you supposed to do? So any opportunity that you can explain that to people. Yeah. We want to support you in.

Marc Oslund [01:12:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:12:19] I brought witnesses. That's right, Kara. And I brought witnesses to my disciplinary council. And I felt so bad because, you know, my mom, my dad, my brother, someone from my ward, they're. They. First of all, they have to be active, believing members.

Marc Oslund [01:12:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] There's a huge conflict of interest of requiring them to be active, faithful, believing members and then having them speak up in your defense, that puts a target on their back. And so, like, that's a problem in and of itself. But then they do come and they write these heartfelt statements. They're given, like, five minutes, they're weeping because from their perspective, the church is literally giving you spiritual death penalty, where you're going to Mormon hell forever.

Marc Oslund [01:12:58] That's it.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] Right. And. And the. The, you know, the state president's, like, looking at his watch, picking his teeth, you know, like, because they. The decision's already been made. It's a kangaroo court. It's a star chamber. Like, they're told from above what to do. They're just there to execute the. The, you know, the execution.

Marc Oslund [01:13:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] And so. So to drag witnesses in my. In my view, is just kind of introducing more trauma to more people.

Marc Oslund [01:13:25] Absolutely. And especially because this is not something I'm fighting for. I don't need. I don't need people to try to, you know, persuade my stake president to change his mind and. And to speak to that. That's the other piece. So the first one is, why are we here? It's because, you guys, I couldn't. There's no other way to make change. Then the second piece is I wanted to bring up, like, guys, this is. You literally are being told, like, hey, I only have an hour to do this, roughly, because we got to get home to dinner. Because our leaders say we got to keep meeting short. Like, if you really believe that my eternal salvation is based on this, you're only going to give me an hour. That's all that. That's all that matters. Right. Like, how. How terrible. And my stake president has said multiple times, this is more traumatic, which is. This is so hard to even think about. More traumatic for him. And you know what? Now that I'm saying it, it might be more traumatic for him because he actually believes that he's severing people from eternal life. And so maybe it's more traumatic, but at the same time, like, dude, this is so callous and so terrible and so ugly and so unnecessary. Like there's that tension of. It's traumatic for everybody, including the people who believe, which is my stake president, and everybody there, which is unfortunate that I even have to worry about their feelings. Right?

A Letter From The Excommunicated

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Okay, I'll go ahead and just quickly finish out this. This letter. Anyone who attends must be willing to comply with the respectful nature of the council, including its procedures and confidentiality. Legal counsel and supporters beyond those referred to above may not be present in order to ensure that the council can proceed without interruption or disturbance. No cell phones or other electronic devices will be permitted. If you need notes or other information, this is a Natasha addendum.

Marc Oslund [01:15:10] Yeah. Is that new?

John Dehlin [01:15:11] As hard copies. In addition, as you know, the church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints considers membership councils to be sacred and confidential. We don't want anyone to know how cultish we are. In other words, no participant in a membership council is permitted to make an audio, video or written recording. Therefore, all of the participants in the council will be required to sign the attached confidence, acknowledgment and agreement. Know that you are loved by us, Mark. Who are your stake presidency? We love you. We are concerned about you and want to help you all we can. Stopping short of actually listening to you and getting to know you and trying to work to resolve your concerns.

Marc Oslund [01:15:46] That's right, love.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Do you want to say the name of the stake president or do you want.

Marc Oslund [01:15:49] You can. He's fine. He's a. He's a. He's a fine guy at his core. He's not. He's not my friend. He never will be. He's put in a tough situation.

John Dehlin [01:15:56] Brian's K. Kettle Stake President of what stake again?

Marc Oslund [01:15:59] American Fork, Utah Central.

John Dehlin [01:16:01] Okay, really quickly because we've. We've kept you long enough. What we like to do is hold vigils on behalf of the excommunicated. I'm freaking going to be in New York, so I can't make it. Kara and others would be on call to do a vigil for you to show up. What can we do to show up for you? Or do you just want us all to stand back and let it happen in peace?

Marc Oslund [01:16:25] Honestly, the more time that goes on, the more I think about. I think what would be most beneficial because I don't. We know what's gonna happen. I don't want people to waste their time. However, I know that there are really kind and brave and generous people who would be there for me. I think calculate the amount of money that would spend on gas to be able to get to and from my Stake center and donate that to Flourish Therapy in Utah to some. Not to the naacp, to the ACLU of Utah, to, you know, Planned Parenthood to somebody. Yep. Please. Like, I think, honestly, because we know the end result. Like, if there's any other consequence, it's because they listen to this and they just want to throw me for a loop, right? So, like, it's gonna happen. I want people to be cared for. And then if you send me a message, I'll get to it. I'm still working through Facebook messages from my original Mormon stories, but I want you guys to know we're here. And I'm here at Mindful Counseling right now here in Utah. I. In Utah County. I feel we talk almost every session with clients about the value of human connection, of being seen and being witnessed. Your messages and your genuine care and concern and love for me combined with, if you want to donate would be the single most valuable thing. I just think that would be so beautiful. Truly, John and Kara, like, you guys are my friends, and to my Stake President's point, you are my new friends. And maybe I forgot my old friends, but if they knew you, they would know the heart, like, heartfelt, sincere, genuine concern that you have shown me. I. Kara, we hung out over at that women's retreat, and obviously Rachel loves you. I love you. My kid loves you. Everyone loves you. But the real human connection I felt from both of you is what's changed me. And feeling supported and validated that way, I think would be great. But yeah, donate, spend your time. If you come, awesome. I'll give you a hug. But truthfully, don't waste your time.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] Okay, so if people decide that they. They just aren't going to listen to you and they're going to come. It's October 9, 2pm at which steak center and where?

Marc Oslund [01:18:41] The American Ford Utah Steaks Steak Center. It's on. Let me pull it up right now. It's on. I gotta. I don't even know what my. What my steak center address is, because why do you. It's like three blocks away. You know, like, let me. Let me pull this up. And I'm just. I'm literally Google mapping right now. I'm just going back because it's on.

During the Google Maps Q&A

John Dehlin [01:18:58] We'll just thank everyone for their comments. And by the way, we still have a little bit more to do. We're going to do Q and A. We're gonna.

Carah Burrell [01:19:05] We're starting a new type of format and we decided to start a Q and A portion, talking for an hour and a half straight, not answering a single question. So we're staying on focus. So if anyone has any questions specifically for Mark for a few last minutes, please leave them below. And I just wanted to respond to a quick question. We have somebody I don't know Dan. Exactly what you're.

Ex-Mormon Dan on The Abuse in Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:19:29] Should we address Dan's.

Carah Burrell [01:19:30] I find us responding to.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] Oh this is awesome. I love this. Dan is our resident look at this kind of orthodox Mormon. Apologies.

Carah Burrell [01:19:36] I have you blocked on Instagram, Dan, from me and I one person and it's you but I would love to respond to this. And he's just asking the question that if Kara, I spelled a C close enough. You got the H. That's fine. John, if Carol was trashing you in Mormon stories publicly and you offered her a chance to stop trashing you and your foundation publicly and she said no, this is who I am, let me be authentic, don't try to science me, blah blah blah, wouldn't you get rid of her? And if you did, she could rightly call that abuse. So that's called a non sequitur. That is not analogous whatsoever. We are talking about a high demand fundamentalist religion versus an organization that I am willing to work in and we're talking about not a cult type structure. John and I work together and we make agreements. And so the structure of Mormon stories is just not really analogous to the structure of the Mormon Church nor does it have any anywhere near the power and influence to harm people directly the way the Mormon Church does. So that would be my answer to that. That it's completely non analogous. But yeah, sure, if I was trying to work here while also being a real bitch publicly or something like that would be a. Definitely I would take into account how my actions would have consequences to my employment. But salvation and things that are Prof. Promised in an afterlife are to complete completely different things. And I can tell that you aren't haven't gotten that. Since you're trying. I don't know if you think that's kind of a smart question. It's not really that smart of a question. It kind of shows your lack of understanding and empathy for how serious and massive the problem within Mormonism is.

Marc Oslund [01:21:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:04] When a church claims to speak for God, to be God's one true church on the earth led by prophets, I think you're going to hold that church to a different standard than a scrappy nonprofit as well. Yeah, Dan, try harder, dude. I know you're a smart guy. Try, try a little Bit harder.

Marc Oslund [01:21:21] And also, let me just validate. I've heard both of you guys talk. And Kara calls John out plenty. And John calls Kara out plenty.

John Dehlin [01:21:27] Call me a name right now. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:21:28] Douche canoe.

Marc Oslund [01:21:30] Like, I've literally watched it and heard it with my own ears.

Carah Burrell [01:21:33] So I said it was such. I've been waiting for this.

Marc Oslund [01:21:39] Keep going,

Carah Burrell [01:21:42] somebody.

Marc Oslund [01:21:42] That's right.

Carah Burrell [01:21:42] I was running to my brain, dude.

Marc Oslund [01:21:44] This is it. And here's the thing. I'm not claiming personally that I'm being abused now for this by the institution. Do I think it's an abusive act? Yeah, I do. I think it's an abusive act. I'm not. I'm not feeling abuse of this dude. I'm going to wear, like, sandals and my Kobe jersey to this. Like, it's not. It's not affecting me. I think it will, to be honest. I think there's. There's some. And there's some discomfort. Obviously, Rachel feels that her family still believes there's going to be kind of this branding that all sucks. That's the abusive part, not the kicking out. I get it. You don't want me as part of your organization because I'm calling it out. What's abusive is Mormonism. I just want the abuse to stop, that's all. If you stop it, guys, I don't. We don't need to have disciplinary councils for people like me anymore.

John Dehlin [01:22:27] And I'll just say also to Dan that, yeah, it's the church's club. It's their boys club. Literally. It's their rules. And yes, they have every right to kick out whoever they want. I. My point is just that it's. It's medieval. It's barbaric, it's cruel, it's psychologically abusive. It's unchristlike, and it's counterproductive, and it. It's. It's dumb.

Marc Oslund [01:22:51] John, at a minimum.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] Listen, I think the church doesn't have the right, Dan. It's that it's dumb and unchristlike.

Marc Oslund [01:22:57] So it actually hurts them more than it helps them.

John Dehlin [01:23:01] For sure.

Marc Oslund [01:23:02] For sure. The people they excommunicate are people like me, who. Who would have been a faithful Mormon a couple years ago, not people who are abusing kids and getting away with it. And look, I taught every word. I read and taught every word of scripture as a seminary teacher. Not once Elder Oaks wants to say the word. Apology doesn't show up in scripture. You know what else doesn't? Excommunication. That doesn't happen. Maybe it does. I don't Know, but the concept of what I'm saying is this whole thing that we've created, it probably shows up in the Doctor and Covenants. I haven't read it in a while. But anyway, point is, this idea is not taught by Jesus. I know that for a fact. If they're going to say better for this man if he had not been born. And referring to Judas or whatever, that's still not excommunication.

Mark Smith on His Excommunication

John Dehlin [01:23:45] No, no, it's.

Marc Oslund [01:23:47] And he freaking kissed him on the damn cheek. He didn't say, you have to leave me. Judas was the one that left him. You know, Anyway, sorry, I just want

John Dehlin [01:23:54] to say this, and this is also to Rachel. We can joke about it. We can kind of be puffed up and strong and confident. Excommunication's not a fun thing. And you. You go there thinking, oh, I got this. And then you actually go. You realize how spiritually and psychologically violent it is. Just to give you an idea, one of the least reactive, most thoughtful humans ever, my wife, Margi, she resigned the very next day after my excommunication. That's how violent and traumatic it was for her and for us. And so I just want to say it's no joke. I'm so sorry this is happening. This is awful.

Marc Oslund [01:24:31] We're.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] Love to Rachel, love to your family. Love to you. We got your back. We care about you. Thank you for doing something very courageous, which is to speak your truth in spite of vicious, mean spirited, harmful actions by a church that claims to be, you know, God's one true church. But we're so sorry. We love you and we're here for you, brother.

Marc Oslund [01:24:57] Thank you. I feel it. And that's a good therapist right there. You see all the posturing and, you know, the underneath. So thank you for. For that. And I. And I feel it. And, Kara, I'm sure we'll be in touch. And anyway, just thanks for being my friends, guys. I really appreciate you.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] And if you decide to come back on and tell us what happened, part two, you're always welcome back.

Marc Oslund [01:25:16] Thank you. I appreciate you both.

Carah Burrell [01:25:17] Love.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] All right. Love you, brother.

Marc Oslund [01:25:19] I love you, too.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] We'll talk.

Marc Oslund [01:25:20] Talk soon. Friends.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] Bye, Rachel. Bye, Remy. Bye, all the people. Okay. See you guys. Well, what do you think?

Carah Burrell [01:25:28] Yeah. Marcus, he just is so direct. And I don't think the church is used to that or likes that. He does not mince words whatsoever about what's on his mind. And thankfully, I think he's on our side now. I wouldn't want to be against Mark like you Were talking with Kobe. Like, don't be on his bad side, Mark. Also, if you're hearing this, your Warm Stories episode is absolutely my favorite. Not Laura Schnell's or anything or anyone else's. You're number one, Mark. No, I'm just saying that Mark is so passionate, and his heart is just out. He's just in the right place. And I think he is just a wonderful human inside and out. So we're gonna keep talking until his excommunication trial. Was it Saturday or Sunday? Which one is it?

John Dehlin [01:26:08] It's Sunday.

Carah Burrell [01:26:08] Sunday.

John Dehlin [01:26:09] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:26:10] I would love to figure out a way to get a group of people together. So you, me, viewer, listening to this. Keep in touch.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] DM you@ nuance. Ho.

Carah Burrell [01:26:19] Yeah, at Nuanceo. On. On Instagram or on Mormon stories. I only want to do whatever Mark and Rachel want to be done. And I don't want to obviously, like, overstep any bounds, but if we can find a way to show our love and support for them in a way that isn't any more pressure or anything else, that they're probably going to go through kind of like a traumatic day. But any way that we can show up, have a vigil, something that would be meaningful. Yeah, let's try to get that.

John Dehlin [01:26:46] Stay tuned. Yeah, stay tuned.

A Question for Mark Zuckerberg

Carah Burrell [01:26:48] So everyone has been waiting super patiently is not the right word, because that was incredibly insightful and interesting, and I'm really glad that we spent probably at least an hour kind of talking with Mark and going through his story and his history and what.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] That's not normally what we want this show to be like, right?

Carah Burrell [01:27:06] Not quite, but not that I would change it.

John Dehlin [01:27:08] We want to cover breaking news.

Carah Burrell [01:27:09] We want to cover the show, whatever. And that was breaking. It was like 30 minutes before we started. But we absolutely have a bunch of questions that I wanted to get into. And there's two cool things that we can do on Streamyard on the program that we're using is we can highlight things, but also there were some questions that came in through Instagram and through just earlier in the chat. So, John, do you want to go ahead and find one question while I find another one? And then we'll just do a couple questions. And then there's one other segment that I wanted to get into because there's actually a New York Post article that came out this week that yours truly was quoted in. And it's a hot topic. Not too hot. It's kind of cool. It's almost like in a pool of water. It's so cool. It's like being soaked. It's like absorbed. It's. It's an article about.

In the Elevator With Jay-Z

John Dehlin [01:28:01] It's dripping.

Carah Burrell [01:28:04] Oh, my gosh. Now we're all. Now everything's ruined.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] All right, so I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll read things until you are ready to read things. So David Welch, David Welsh asks, was it at Paul Toscano who called excommunication the ultimate Mormon sacrament? I love that comment. David Walsh. Yes, I think that was Paul Toscano. We've interviewed Paul Toscano on Mormon Stories podcast. We should make sure and include that in the show notes because he's a legend. So is Margaret Toscano. And yeah, it's really true because the Mormon Church won't excommunicate you if you're a sexual predator or a rapist necessarily. They've probably kept in full standing more sexual predators than they've excommunicated. But they excommunicate you. If you speak up, if you call the church on its homophobia, on its racism, on its sexism, and anybody at all pays attention, you're guaranteed an excommunication. And that's what, what that means is excommunication in 2021 means you're doing something good. It means you're standing for truth. It means you're standing for the marginalized. And so it is, you know, if you believe in Jesus and you believe in what Jesus stood for, it. It represents the highest ideals of what Christ stood for, you know, unless you're excommunicated for adultery. And I don't think that that counts. So. And I also just want to say Laura Schnell was on and she wrote, we love you, Mark. Real love, not the benevolent American fork. Fake Harry Potter Power love. Holy. Whoa. Laura Schnell brought it.

Paul Toscano on Excommunication Being The Ultimate Mormon Sacrament

Carah Burrell [01:29:44] She doesn't hold back anymore, at least.

John Dehlin [01:29:47] I just want to say, Laura Chanel, if you move to Utah, I'm going to resign from Mormon Stories Podcast and you can just join Kara and take over Mormon Stories podcast.

Carah Burrell [01:29:54] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] You two as a team.

Carah Burrell [01:29:56] I will imagine your own private highway with my bare hands, Laura, for you to drive on to get your butt back to Utah. That's how much I want Laura to live in Utah. Yeah, she was at Thrive over the weekend. It was.

John Dehlin [01:30:08] She dropped the mic.

Carah Burrell [01:30:11] It was amazing. I want to pivot from talking necessarily about excommunication things, but I think this is related to. There's a comment on Instagram that said, what do you make of the church's use of platitudes like doubt your doubts. The things that keep people kind of entrenched and like still having just these platitudes that anytime was it thought stopping where anytime you could maybe think, oh, Mark has a. He's onto something there. But doubt your doubts. What do you make of the way that the church holds those? Like, they'll print them and put them on the wall. They're so proud of them, but they're kind of frightening to me. What do you make of them?

The Church's Use of Placitudes

John Dehlin [01:30:50] Yeah, I read that in general conference this past weekend. And by the way, we thought about doing a general conference. You know, response, maybe we will, but it's. It's a little bit depressing, right? To. To like I would follow General conference.

Carah Burrell [01:31:04] I just want to quote Meatloaf. It's like I would do anything for love. I will do anything for Mormon stories, but I won't watch General conference and

John Dehlin [01:31:11] I won't do that.

Carah Burrell [01:31:13] I won't do that. That.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] So I'm like, we thought about it.

Carah Burrell [01:31:16] It would take like actually caring about

John Dehlin [01:31:18] that where I think it's hard to

Carah Burrell [01:31:20] give unless there's like actual like Oak said this and it is causing just the way with like the Holland speech at byu, it's like gonna lead to deaths.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] If it's gonna lead to death, you

Carah Burrell [01:31:30] know, and there's a news story around it and there's people being affected and then there's like, you know, the chalk art and everything that comes from it. So if there is something like that that we're missing, please do tell. We want to make sure to report on things that are important and affect people like ex Mormons who have believing family members. And it's like, oh, this conference talk came up and I want to be able to discuss how to, you know, navigate issues like around what such and such conference talk around this like pointed issue or whatever. If we're missing that, let us know. But otherwise, just generally, I think we're just trying to talk about the platitudes that you'll hear a lot at conference that. Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] Yeah, so. So I, I heard the doubt your doubts was cool. Quoted a lot at general conference this past weekend. And it's exactly what you said, Kara. We learned from Stephen Hassan and we should include this in the show notes as well. Stephen Hassan is a cult expert. He was a. He was a Mooney himself before he broke out of the Mooney Church. And he came up with the bite model, which is that high demand religions are cults. They control the information that you receive. That's The I, so that they can control your thoughts, that's the T. They manipulate you with emotion, that's the E. And all of that they do so they can control your behavior, that's the B. And doubt your doubts absolutely qualifies as a thought stopping technique to make it so Mormons won't think. Huh. I wonder if Mark Oslin has a point. Oh, I wonder if we're mean to LGBT people. Let's excommunicate John and Mark so that they're discredited as evil bad people. Mormon Voldemort's so that no one will listen to anything they say. It's a, it's a thought top thought stopping technique that keeps people in the Mormon bubble so that they stay ignorant.

doubt your doubts

Carah Burrell [01:33:11] Yeah. And there's so many good resources that we've already done. Like Luna, Lindsay Corbin's Like 17 Hours with John on. I like to call them the 31 flavors. But the 31 tools of undo influence. That's like a great resource. And then we want to get Anthony Magna Bosco on here with from. He does a street epistemology channel on YouTube and runs an entire just kind of system, street epistemology system for teaching critical thinking skills. And so I also have a question about how, how we can talk more about science and critical thinking. And that's kind of what I always want to. I want to. This isn't just about Mormonism. It's not just about like the, the, like the little petty bickering about this or that or this or that. It's about teaching that there's implications to these things. Like Dan's question earlier, it's. Yeah, wouldn't that be easy if it was like, oh, it's just systems fail. And there's, it's, it's uncomfortable when people within systems are bickering with one another and of course they have the right to kick them out. They're not taking into account that the systems will only change if we apply critical thinking and we apply like, oh, I wouldn't put up with this in this, in this system. So I'm not going to put it up with it in a church. And I'm going to work to make this system better. So anytime that we can encourage like understanding logical fallacies, things like that. So I just want to also say that if that's a topic that's on your mind too, that you would like to eventually start a series. If we can. Right John?

Mormon Stories: Criticism and Discovery

John Dehlin [01:34:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a part of. We're trying to bring new content in new formats you know, Mormon Stories excels at like 6 to 12 hour long form interviews. We're not going to stop that. We're still going to try and maintain a respectful and a healthy tone with those interviews. But Kara's here, you guys are paying to support Kara being here, John Larsen's here. And we're just trying to think about and. And things have changed. TikTok's here, Instagram's here, YouTube response videos are a thing. And what we're just trying to do is to say how do we crack the bubble? How do we pop the bubble for as many people as you know who want the bubble to be popped? You know, we know that the LDS Church does not provide informed consent. How do we help as many people see the LDS Church for what it is so they can make an informed decision? And so this is an experimentation with formatting to see if we can pop more non consent bubbles.

John Larsen on Becoming a Co-Host on Mormon Stories

Carah Burrell [01:35:36] Yeah. And on that same thing Stephen asked earlier on in the chat, here's my question. How do I become a co host to Mormon Stories? I have to admit, nuance ho adds a lot of jazz to the program. But I'm a little bit jealous. Steven, Stephen, Stephen. And I am, first of all, I'm flattered and that you want my job. But I will also say, to John's point, if you're a content creator and you want to help us add more content, write in, let us know. How can you help us create more and more content so that we can do all those things that John just listed?

John Dehlin [01:36:06] Yeah. If you are a bad should I swear, if you are a badass TikTok or YouTuber, if you write an amazing book, if you make some really important contribution that increases your chance of being interviewed on Mormon Stories and or asked to be a guest host. Don't we want to sometimes have guests? We do for our show.

Carah Burrell [01:36:23] Yes. Every once in a while the old girl. My things start breaking down over here. So I was a little bit sick last week and I felt really bad about having to miss the Stokes episode last Monday. And then I powered through and I was on Tuesday with Margi and I shouldn't have powered through because then I went to the ER that night. So the point is I definitely want to have this space right here. Could be anybody. So I don't think that I'm that special.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] Wait, that's not what I'm saying.

Carah Burrell [01:36:55] No, that's what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:36:56] Oh, well.

Carah Burrell [01:36:57] But I'm sometimes when I get sick. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But I'm also just like a rotation of other voices, too.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] Well, I mean, I think people would rather see me be replaced sometimes than you, but.

Carah Burrell [01:37:06] Laura.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] Yeah. So you can, you know, but. But also as a part of this format.

Carah Burrell [01:37:12] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:37:13] Or.

John Dehlin [01:37:13] Or, you know, other things that we do. We want to have co hosts or special guests. We bring Gerardo on. We love Gerardo.

Carah Burrell [01:37:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:21] We bring John Larsen on, and we want to be able. If. If you're smart and witty and informed and you have opinions that are strong or thoughtful or compelling, then help us get to know you and we'll bring you on in some way. What are you laughing at?

Carah Burrell [01:37:35] I'm just laughing. Crisco Bike. He's a regular. He's my cousin. Not through marriage. Technically through marriage, but I'll call you.

John Dehlin [01:37:42] What was awkward? What did I say that was awkward? I don't even know. I have no idea.

Carah Burrell [01:37:45] I have no idea. Everything's awkward. No, me and John, we're like. We're. We work together, and at some point something's going to be funny and awkward, and that's just the way that we roll with it. I have no idea what could possibly be awkward, but I wanted to answer this directly. I'm going to take creative license to this question that Chris go by guests. I'm working on a plan for an episode on the environment for Mormon stories. If John D. Will have me on. The correct question is, will Kara have me on? And the answer is yes. I would love to have an episode about the environment and whether John's here or not, whether he signs off on it or not, it's happening. I want it.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Yeah. We have a goal, and I don't know if we're going to reach it. I've told Carolyn, man, what if we had one episode of something released a day? I know that's a lot, but, you know, there's so much meat out there for content. I've challenged Cara to start swearing. Was awkward to start producing her own episodes sometimes and just doing her own episodes where I'm not even necessarily contributing. So. And you guys, if you like Kara, you can ignore me and just listen to her episodes. And if you don't like Kara, you can just shut off her interviews.

Carah Burrell [01:38:53] To be honest, I. When I'm like, live stream or whatever on Tick Tock, whatever, I can talk for three hours straight, no problem. It's just I. I just have to make sure that I'm on brand for Mormon stories sometimes, so I just have to be on my best behavior. That's a lot Harder to do for three hours.

John Dehlin [01:39:07] You're great.

Carah Burrell [01:39:08] Otherwise, I would love to do as many much content as we possibly can.

John Dehlin [01:39:12] I can't wait to see you be a solo interviewer and to see you develop your craft.

Carah Burrell [01:39:17] Yeah, I'm excited about that.

John Dehlin [01:39:18] So, Crisco bike. If you're smart and you know your stuff, we'd love to have you on.

Carah Burrell [01:39:23] He does. He is. Are you a biology teacher right now? He used to work at the aquarium. I don't know your entire resume off. Off the top of my head. But you're in the Brell family, so you're cool as hell. Obviously. Should we get into some more questions? I just wanted to get into something really.

I Was Interviewed And Quoted In The New York Post

John Dehlin [01:39:42] If we're going to do. If we're going to do some soaking, if we're going to talk about soaking, we got to do it now because I got to leave in 15 minutes.

Carah Burrell [01:39:49] Oh, damn. Okay. I just thought it would be kind of fun because even though this topic makes no freaking sense to me, it makes me want to pull my hair out. It makes no sense. It's still. It's like the number one thing that, like, I feel like nevermost or the outside world wants to know is the soaking topic. And I just happen to be interviewed and quoted in a New York Post article that came out two days ago. And the only reason that I even knew the article, like, finally came out is I listened to Kyle Kalinsky. If you want to know what Kara's politics are now. You know, I listen to Kyle Kalinsky when I'm getting ready and putting on my makeup. And he was talking about the soaking article, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I have, like, one degree of separation from Kyle Kalinsky now. He's a YouTube, like, political podcaster. But anyway, and so he was actually talking about this article and he didn't quote me. He was so to close. Close, but he was talking about this. So do you want to go ahead and play a little bit of a clip? Because it's just the. The outside world thinks it's the funniest thing, but I'll go ahead and after we play the clip, I want to read what I said in this.

John Dehlin [01:40:49] So do we want. Is he going to explain what soaking is? Okay, okay, okay. So the article.

Carah Burrell [01:40:53] And then if he doesn't, we can.

John Dehlin [01:40:54] So the article is New York, New York Post. The article is called what is Soaking the Mormon Teen Sex act going viral. Let's switch to Kyle and we'll do a little. A little bit of a Response video

The Mormon Sex Act Go Viral

Marc Oslund [01:41:08] called soaking and I just learned what it was so New York Post article says what is soaking? The Mormon teen sex act gone viral.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] Okay.

Marc Oslund [01:41:20] The article says the following A new viral video reveals what Mormon teens are doing to get around the no sex rule. It's penetration without thrusting, an act known as soaking, and its hashtag has some 25.5 million tags on TikTok today.

John Dehlin [01:41:36] Holy moly.

Marc Oslund [01:41:37] What's more, in order for the couple to further benefit from soaking, a friend helps them out by bouncing on the bed next to them to get things moving or jump humping. Quote. When I returned from my Mormon mission and moved to Provo, Utah, I heard rumors about soaking, which is when a male places his penis in a woman's vagina. And that is it. No moving, no thrusting, no orgasms. 36 year old Gary Naur, who lives in Oregon, told the Post. I talked to a few friends who had soaked. I hear that Mormons still do this. While on my mission, I had several discussions with my fellow missionaries concerning sex in general. Some talked about soaking, some would discuss that anal sex is also a way to keep one's virginity, recalled Nower, who removed his name from church Records in April 2020.

John Dehlin [01:42:28] So, am I pausing?

Carah Burrell [01:42:29] Yep. Well, that's all I want. I would love to hear your comments and I'll tell you what I think about it in a second. But the main question is, is it even a thing? Is it. Is it just a rumor? Is it something? Because I hate that the number one thing it feels like Mormonism is even known for on TikTok at this point with that many tags is something that could possibly not even exist. It could just be like one big like joke. Like it could just be urban legend.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Yeah, right. Yeah. It could be just made up like that jump hopping thing. I think I saw people like trying to ask, has anyone actually ever done this? It could be just a total myth or like one person did it once and it just gets. It just spreads around the Internet.

Carah Burrell [01:43:10] Right? Yeah, I'm. It just. So anyway, I want to read my quote that I got.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So this is. I've actually heard that last actual quote. She is famous. She is world famous.

Carah Burrell [01:43:22] I'm world famous.

John Dehlin [01:43:23] She's quoted in. She's quoted in the New York Post. Do you want to read it or do you want me to read it?

Carah Burrell [01:43:28] I'll read it.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:43:29] I said soaking makes its rounds every now and then and people are shocked and fall over in laughter. The thing is that I have. I've never heard of a single person actually admit to doing it. I grew up in Provo, by the way.

John Dehlin [01:43:41] I just want to.

Carah Burrell [01:43:42] It's always a friend of a friend or a rumor, said Cara Burrell, 32, who left the church two years ago and posts about Mormonism on social media. Mormons have very strict. This is what I said. This is my opinion. If you want to disagree, let me know. I said Mormons have very strict rules about touching over the clothes and under the clothes, and no petting. So it's all very much against the law of chastity and would still require a man and woman to confess to their bishop to be able to become in good standing members of the church. So it really makes no sense. My take is that it's probably 99 rumor and joke. It's just a handful of idiots try it. Burrell told the Post. Oh, that sounds kind of cool.

John Dehlin [01:44:13] That's kind of nuanced. Like you're not just like angry ex Mormon that wants to run with any mean or bad thing about the church and embarrass the church?

Carah Burrell [01:44:22] No, I love Mormons. I would, I would feel hurt personally if people thought that that was a real thing. I'd be like, no, Mormons, we're not that. We're, we're, we're special sometimes. But like you know that you still are breaking the law of chastity if you do that. Like, I don't know, maybe it's made up by virgins. I think that's the thing. I don't know if anyone knows that after you, you, you got to have a little bit of movement. There's no such thing as no movement. That doesn't exist.

John Dehlin [01:44:47] And what's, what's the likelihood that like these 19, 18 or 19 or 21 year old boys who probably have never had sex are gonna actually be in that position, but somehow no orgasm happens. That does not sound, I mean like

Carah Burrell [01:45:03] if that's the God you worship, albeit for me to judge. But I think you, you're just either gonna go all the way or you're just gonna not. Like, I don't understand. It doesn't make any sense. Sense. Now while, while the other loophole that I will not be saying in direct terms also doesn't make sense. It does make a little bit of anal sex.

John Dehlin [01:45:25] You're talking about anal sexy program. But yes, it's also known as the poop hole loophole.

Carah Burrell [01:45:31] I thought I was the one that was gonna say you're getting the inappropriate one. I first heard about this when I was in la. And my husband was friends with and doing, like, personal assistant work for Garpal Glow notes Ricky Landholm and Kate Micucci. And they have a song you can look it up on YouTube about.

John Dehlin [01:45:47] It's funny. It's really funny.

Mormon teachers: We Should Have Just Lie

Carah Burrell [01:45:49] Blank me in the blank Because I love Jesus. Fill in the blank. We're losing so many donors. I just feel it in my bones. But you know what I mean? This is. This is not a regular.

John Dehlin [01:45:56] This is all.

Carah Burrell [01:45:57] This is just a regular.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] Can I tell you one quick story?

Carah Burrell [01:45:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] So I'm working for MIT, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It's probably around 2007, like, Mitt Romney is about to run for president, or he's running for president. And a community college teacher from California pulls me aside and says, john, you're Mormon. Can I tell you something? And I'm like, what? She's like, yeah. I've got these Mormon girls in my community college classes from California that come to me as, like, a confidant because they can't talk to their parents and they can't talk to their bishop and they can't talk to the youth leaders, but they talk to me. And what they told me was that they engage in anal sex so that they can avoid breaking the law of chastity and, you know, not make it so that the boys that they're dating, the Mormon boys that they're dating, that it won't keep them from being able to go on their missions. And this is a never Mormon professor coming to me and telling me this is what she's seeing in California. So I don't think the anal sex thing is made up.

Carah Burrell [01:46:59] I don't. I never said it was made up. I think the soaking is made up more. Yeah, I definitely. Or else my point that I was gonna make is that I don't think our uncle. Uncle Nodes would make an entire song about it if it wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] Oh, Christians.

Carah Burrell [01:47:09] That's what I'm trying to say. Like, Christians, Christians and Mormons and anybody else that's maybe, like, repressed and trying to find a loophole. But I was just. My, My. My little. My. My. My ears were. Were so, like, absolutely taken aback. I was sitting in the audience hearing this song for the first time that they played, and I was with a friend who was not Mormon anymore and very much experienced, and I was like, that is not true. Nobody does that. Nobody does that. She's like, it's true, Kara. Let it soak in. It's true. And I've been shooketh ever since I'LL also say.

John Dehlin [01:47:46] When I was at byu, the rumor that was going around was that BYU students would go to Vegas, get married in Vegas.

Carah Burrell [01:47:54] I hate that.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] So they could have sex and not violate the law of chastity, and then they would get divorced, you know, on their way home. And that was the rumor back then.

Carah Burrell [01:48:02] It feels so funny because it's like, ironic because that's the only type of thing that you do when you're like on hard drugs. But you know they're not on hard drugs. They're just on religion.

John Dehlin [01:48:09] It's just. Yeah, exactly. It's just. Why not lie? Like, that's so much work. It's so expensive. Just lie like you're, you know, it's not legit in God's eyes anyway. How about just lie? How about just have sex and lie versus soak so? Or do anal sex?

John Dylan: Religion makes people irrational

Carah Burrell [01:48:25] Okay, John Dylan, you've been doing this job for a while, but I want to drop some knowledge on you for a second, okay? I want to tell you something. This is I brand new devastating information. Okay, Ready? I. I think I'm also sure. But I think religion might make people do irrational things. Let that soak in. I don't know. I'm just putting out.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] You make it. You make a fair point. You make a fair point.

Carah Burrell [01:48:48] I think it's. We're trying to think rationally that it doesn't make sense. But they're in a religion where a lot of things don't know, make no sense.

John Dehlin [01:48:55] That's fair.

Carah Burrell [01:48:56] And we're trying to.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] That's fair.

Carah Burrell [01:48:58] Push rational rationality on something that. That's just not the way that works.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] All right, you win this one, you win this round.

Carah Burrell [01:49:04] It's. I. So that's the thing. Does anyone else have any comments? I'm sorry that our computer's so dang far away that.

XMLX: My Most Popular Video

John Dehlin [01:49:10] That we can't read that I can't even read them.

Carah Burrell [01:49:12] And that's what's funny is like X Mallex said that her most like people like me, XML X and other people, we can spend so much time on content for things. But you mentioned soaking once and it's like your most popular video. So I think she mentioned the other day that she's. That that's her most popular video and probably will never be dethroned. She talked about soaking just one time because it's just so weird and outrageous and the whole world wants to look at the freak show that is going on in here in.

John Dehlin [01:49:40] In the BYU Scott Bob says jump pumping sounds like a tall tale I think Kara agrees with you. I think I. I do too. Thanks, Scott. Bob. Casey. Jude writes Make a Tick Tock where someone's in a dark bathroom looking in a mirror with a candle and they say John de Lynn three times. I'm not creative, so I don't know what happens. Think Beetlejuice. Actually, Alan Mount of Marriage on a Tightrope made a video where he says my name three times and I appear. Go look it up. Alan Mount, Tick Tocker. He's amazing. And he and Katie will be representing Marriage on a Tightrope at the Thrive Day.

Carah Burrell [01:50:20] Click away. We did at the beginning, but thrive, November 14th. Be there, be your square.

Tick Tock: Thrive

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Okay. All right. How do we want to wrap up? Because we're running, you know, any, any final.

Carah Burrell [01:50:32] You're hidden. Are you heading to the airport?

John Dehlin [01:50:33] No, no, that's, that's, that's Friday.

Carah Burrell [01:50:35] Oh, I'm. Well, we also have an episode tomorrow that we are filming with a very special fella from the Tick Tock world. So look for that on Monday or Tuesday. I'll give you a clue. His name rhymes with

Marc Oslund [01:50:54] Lardipus Lardicus.

Carah Burrell [01:50:58] It's gonna be a really good one though. So I just remembered, of course you're not leaving to the airport yet because we have to film that tomorrow. I, obviously, I'm not tired. I'm just, I'm. I'm a critical thinker.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] Shout out to Ryan for buying tickets to Thrive. You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and get your tickets for Thrive now. All right, Kara. So I love this format. I have a lot of fun doing it. Doing this job for 16 years, believe it or not, can get a little bit tedious. And you, you bring a new. You breathe a new breath of fresh air. So does Gerardo. And it's just so great to have you. So I'm so excited about some new formats we're going to be experimenting with. How do we wrap up today in a way where, where you can talk about that a little bit more in our vision? Maybe some people who started with us aren't here now. Anything else you want to say? Anything?

In the Elevator With

Long Format Interviews on Mormon Stories

Carah Burrell [01:51:49] All I want to say is that we have a lot of amazing guests lined up and so the long format interviews are going anywhere, but they're long and they take take all day to film and sometimes.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] And some people don't want to watch a six hour or two hour or one hour.

Carah Burrell [01:52:07] Right, Fair enough.

John Dehlin [01:52:08] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:52:08] They are time coded. Now we are trying our best to make sure that if, if you see a headline or you see like a

John Dehlin [01:52:14] title on YouTube, like soaking for example. Soaking, you know.

Carah Burrell [01:52:17] Yeah, we don't need a six hour long format interview about soaking. But actually I just. If you were. If you are within the sound of my voice and you are somebody who is soaked and it's not a rumor, I would interview for six hours.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] But anyway, or email us. Or if you've done the jump pumping, email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com if you are crippled from

Carah Burrell [01:52:35] jump pumping, please write into Mormon stories and we will absolutely interview you. If you have some type of lawsuit,

John Dehlin [01:52:43] inquiring minds want to know.

Carah Burrell [01:52:45] If you jump up cows want to know.

John Dehlin [01:52:47] Anyway, email the nuance gmail.com she wants to know if you've jump pumped.

Carah Burrell [01:52:52] Yeah, because like I was saying, it doesn't seem physically really like a thing. Oh, thanks. Open Glaze.

John Dehlin [01:52:58] By the way, who's gonna let. Who's gonna be in the act and let some guy be jumping on the bed? Like there's a whole exhibitionist kind of like voyeuristic thing.

Carah Burrell [01:53:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:10] Right at byu. Like.

Carah Burrell [01:53:12] Yeah. I don't know, it's like your mission companion is like, like your second, like your right hand dude, your wingman.

John Dehlin [01:53:18] Bro, bro, I'm gonna be with my lady. Come jump on the bed. Sure. I'm sure that.

Carah Burrell [01:53:24] Yeah, yeah. Like you've been through so much together. What's, what's, what's.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] We served in, in Guadalajara. Now come jump up my bed.

Carah Burrell [01:53:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:33] So Clay, thanks for that. We've had lots of great super chats, people donating through YouTube. You know, we, we pay Kara because she's a professional. We pay her arto. We pay Brooklyn.

Carah Burrell [01:53:45] Professional at what though?

John Dehlin [01:53:46] Like being interesting and funny.

Carah Burrell [01:53:49] I feel like I'm a professional at just like showing up relatively on time and like, like. And I have. I have some things to say sometimes. So that's really nice of you to call me a professional. So I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:54:00] And thanks to Soap and Clay and all the people that donated through Super Chat and everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation and the Mormon Stories.

Carah Burrell [01:54:08] And people have been asking if this is going to be at a regular time. Right now we're filming this on a Wednesday around 4. We haven't decided exactly what time, but we do want to make it a regular weekly at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:54:20] Let's get their feedback. Should we ask for their feedback? Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:54:23] Comment. What time you think we should do what day?

John Dehlin [01:54:25] The one thing that's forbidden is Wednesday nights at 6. Because we love Bill Real. We love Our check out their show, Mormonism Live. It's superb. We will never compete with, with those brilliant humans. True.

Carah Burrell [01:54:39] Never. Yeah, I, John knows that I've been like a fangirl of Bill Real's for many a years now. But yeah, we would love to do it at the same time. So you can kind of like depend on the kindness of strangers now. Depend on Karen John regularly at the same time. And if you're like, oh, I would love to ask a question about such and such. Today we didn't get to as many questions as we wanted to because we also want to kind of COVID current events and have amazing guests on this as well. So it was really important to talk to Mark for the hour that we did. So I hope that you didn't. Anyone who asked questions didn't feel disrespected. But we promise that if you want to ask them again next time we'll try to get to as many as we possibly can. Because I love, I love doing like when I'm on Tick Tock, I love doing live streams for three hours and just like chit chat in and just keeping up with how the Mormon stories audience is doing. And no doubt you've got some serious questions on your mind as well. And I'm apologize if we didn't get to them but we would love to do a format where we get to as many questions as possible.

John Dehlin [01:55:43] Absolutely. Brooke is saying Monday evenings at 7 for family home evening. Carol loves that suggestion. I have pickleball Monday nights with my buds so I'm gonna have to figure that out. Cheer yourself.

Carah Burrell [01:55:55] Just replace you.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] Yeah, yeah, okay. You don't need me. Absolutely. Cheer yourself. Deaf says make it a UK friendly time. Man. I don't know what time that would be because it's like a six hour difference.

Carah Burrell [01:56:06] I think I know.

John and Kara on Talking To People

John Dehlin [01:56:07] And we kind of are wondering if evening, well like tell us this is evening better for you guys than during the day. Some people like during the day, but sometimes we get the biggest numbers in the evening.

Carah Burrell [01:56:17] My dream vision, can I just tell you guys, is if let's say you put the kids to bed or whatever. I don't know your situation, but the point is it would be so cool that just in the same way that it was like prime time TV that everyone like turns on their TV at like 8 or 9 must see TV that like you go, you have your TV connected to your, your YouTube or whatever and like you turn on an hour or two with John and Kara and you can have your phone out and you could like Comment in, like, messages and stuff that we could read on air. I'm just saying, if I was a viewer, I think that would be like, the bomb. So we could either do that, and I feel like we would get a bigger audience and more questions and more people watching it.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] And we want to bring people on, right. We want to let them call in to maintain anonymity or we want to have them actually come on and ask us questions. So keep that in mind as well.

Carah Burrell [01:57:06] And pre submit questions.

John Dehlin [01:57:07] Yeah, absolutely.

Carah Burrell [01:57:08] Maggie's question right there. And. Yeah, absolutely. We should probably keep, like a going list of it.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] Yeah, absolutely. Really quickly, H bend Zula just sent us a really generous, super chat. So thank you for that. We really appreciate it. I don't want to leave, Kara. I know you hate leaving live streams, especially when there's like 500.

Carah Burrell [01:57:29] Myself, I know how to press end broadcast. I'm a professional at it.

John Dehlin [01:57:32] Are you gonna keep going?

Carah Burrell [01:57:33] I could.

John Dehlin [01:57:34] Okay. All right, well, anything we should say before I bail? Because I need to bail.

Dads' Love Languages

Carah Burrell [01:57:38] Where are you going?

John Dehlin [01:57:39] I'm going home. I'm making dinner for Margi. A. Yeah, so. And then I'm taking my oldest child on a little daddy child excursion. Before New York, we have a weekly daddy child thing.

Carah Burrell [01:57:53] Guys, John D. Is not Voldemort. He's a sweet dad.

John Dehlin [01:57:57] Well, if I'm Voldemort. Voldemort cares a lot about his wife and kids, basically. Somehow.

Carah Burrell [01:58:03] Yeah, somehow Voldemort cares about his wife and kids.

John Dehlin [01:58:05] His cold, you know, heart, still loves his wife and kids.

Carah Burrell [01:58:09] Okay, I. I'll. Do you mind if I keep going?

John Dehlin [01:58:11] Not at all. Not at all. Okay. Kara, give me a fist bump because you are a rad partner. I. Carrie, you're the best. Thank you for your awesomeness. Thanks for all you do. And I'm really excited to partner with you. Gerardo, we want you on our show. This cinematography is all you. And we're gonna have Gerardo on as well for different things. Thanks to Brooklyn. Thanks to all our donors. Thanks to all our listeners. Thanks to Mark. Please find a way to show up for Mark Osland and send him your love emails. Dm him show up at the Stake center on Sunday if you want to. Kara can be your contact about that. Let's show Mark all the love. Love to Rachel and Remy, Laura, Schnell and all the good people. I gotta run. You guys take care.

Carah Burrell [01:58:55] What's for dinner, John?

John Dehlin [01:58:55] See you tomorrow. I'm making. I am making a vegetarian chili that has. What's the. It's like a protein source. That's not tofu. It's not tofu.

Carah Burrell [01:59:12] Quinoa.

John Dehlin [01:59:13] Quinoa. I'm making a. A sweet potato quinoa. Vegetarian chili. Drop the mic. Watch this. Drop the water bottle.

Carah Burrell [01:59:22] Nice.

John Dehlin [01:59:23] I know you're, like, grossed out. Carol wants to go to Taco Bell. Basically, that's.

Carah Burrell [01:59:27] I actually had quinoa today for lunch. I had spits for lunch.

John Dehlin [01:59:30] Kara's love language is Taco Bell, though. I'm not gonna lie.

Carah Burrell [01:59:33] I actually think I should upgrade. I've already. I have already told the Mormon Stories audience that I love Taco Bell, which is true. I had Taco Bell last night. But maybe I need to elevate it to a little bit more expensive to spitz.

John Dehlin [01:59:47] This is the deal, and we are not paid by spits. Okay, I gotta run. Love you guys. Make sure and hit that red button when you're done.

Carah Burrell [01:59:52] You guys keep it recording.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] We'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.