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  1. Pingback: Changing Church Teachings on Tithing with Ellipses - Nearing Kolob Nearing Kolob

  2. I just listened to the first two parts and I can’t thank you enough Kristy as this is probably the greatest lesson in authenticity I have ever heard. Tears would not stop pouring down my face listening to you grieve over the loss of your family. I left the church 20 years ago when I was a 13 year old boy and I feel guilty because for the most part my family has stuck by my side. On the flip side I am no where near as an authentic person as you are, and I find this podcast to be extremely inspirational as I am on a long journey to change my paradigm, to rid myself of the toxic shame I carry from my Mormon upbringing and to rediscover my passion and purpose in life. You truly are an amazing person and you are doing beautiful work. You are changing the world by being you and that is something to be very proud of. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. -John

  3. I listened to all three parts and Kristy, I admire your great courage and persistence in trying to make the church a better place for humans. Yes, God loves us all equally, but church leaders don’t, especially when we don’t obey them (kinda like your parents). I’m so sorry that your family has chosen the church over you. I hope that your new practice, your wonderful hubs and beautiful kids can help you move forward and heal the wounds inflicted by the immoral behavior of church leadership. And thanks for your candor; it helped me have more courage in my forward movement away from the church into a more joyful future.

  4. She’s evidently a trouble maker with no interest in showing the discipline required of responsible membership. She gets a little education and then thinks herself wise enough to tell the LDS Church what it should do on matter after matter. This case is easy: she’s in deep apostasy and will very likely never recover. How long will it be before she’s a full-blown atheist? That’s the typical outcome for those with her type of attitude and approach.

    1. I’m not atheist, but I don’t believe in any form of a Christian god, including the mormon god. please don’t assume I’m a bad or dumb person. thanks. 🙂
      -former USAF pilot who graduated as the Cadet Wing Commander from BYU Air Force Detachment 855

    2. An atheist?!? Say it ain’t so. Hopefully someone will teach her how to regularly saw off the growing horns and tail once that happens. If “responsible membership” means keeping your mouth shut and towing the line, then yes, she is a troublemaker. God bless the troublemakers. They’re the only ones who ever changed the ossified social structures we build and then worship.

    3. The Mormon Church teaches its members to sustain the fallible leadership and not to criticize them even if they are wrong, yet, should not the leadership sustain the fallible membership and not criticize them as well – I wonder if it’s only a one way street. Church leaders have taught that all members of the church are disciples, no matter their calling, and all are important from the ward librarian to the apostle. It makes me wonder if the leadership trusts and has confidence in its members. Making honest mistakes and listening to criticism should be a two-way street, especially in a true church where nobody should be above approach or reproach. In my opinion, all disciples should be accountable to the whole body of the church.

      Did Jesus excommunicate Judas? No!

      1. You will know you are in the true church when the congregation comes into the chapel, the leadership will stand up from their seats.

      2. Harold the cat. You said, “Disciples should be accountable to the whole body of the church.” Jesus takes this a step further and
        teaches a leader should be the servant of his followers.

        Here’s one of the teachings of Joseph Smith. Wonder who this applies to?

        “for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be
        under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have
        the Spirit of God. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 205.)

        Hmmmm.

    4. Gee whiz swplaza, you evidently are a follower who lacks the intellectual curiosity to question the authority you use as a crutch to replace thinking. Education always has been the enemy of fear and ignorance which is why the LDS Church is purging more and more of its’ intellectual membership. Folks like you are much easier to manage, not to mention collect money from. You are clearly in full-on zombie mode with little hope of ever thinking for yourself again, if you ever have. Hanging out at Mormon Stories probably won’t make your Bishop too happy but if you ever hope to think for yourself I suggest you continue to do so. Any exposure to open and honest conversation is better than none.

      1. I certainly can agree with you here regarding the ad hominen attacks swplaza has made made toward Kristy. However, your reply to swplaza also seemed to me to be an ad hominem attack. If you, swplaza, John Dehlin, and Kristy Money were discussing such issues in person, would swplaza still personally attack Kristy, or would you still personally attack swplaza? It has been my observation that people are less civil towards each other in the anonymity of the internet than in person. I hope that you and swplaza will consider making more civil postings in the future. You will notice that both Kristy and John behave quite courteously.

    5. So all those who question decisions of the brethren are on the road to apostasy? For over 20 years I’ve advocated for women to re-receive the Priesthood. Before that I advocated for blacks to receive the Priesthood. Was I in apostasy when I advocated for blacks to receive the Priesthood? Now the Church admits that the ban was not doctrinal (although all through my youth it was a point of doctrine highlighted in many conference talks). The ban was due to racism, plain and simple. Twenty years from now will we be looking at women’s right to hold the Priesthood in the same light? I hope it doesn’t take that long. Oh, BTW…since my “apostasy” at questioning the Priesthood ban I’ve served in many Bishoprics, High Councils and most recently as Bishop.

    6. I think the important thing to realize is that all religion is inherently personal. Regardless of what people say, even the most orthodox LDS members have unique and personal outtakes on belief. For example, some people disagree on what constitutes breaking the sabbath or what constitutes doing service.

      To say she has a “little education” is an understatement. She is incredibly educated, and she is definitely an expert in her field.

      It isn’t an “easy case”. Realize that very often people’s beliefs are the sum total of their experiences, what they have learned, felt, and other inputs. People do not chose to be atheists or disagree with LDS leadership anymore than you choose to believe in the LDS faith. I think her beliefs and positions are just as sincere and genuine as yours. Its not about her being wise or arrogant, it is about her following genuinely held beliefs. It seems then that it is much more a matter of integrity.

      Oh and fun fact. Think of all the “so called intellectuals” who disagreed with the church on the priesthood ban for blacks. They thought they knew better than the LDS church just because they had “a little education”! How wrong were they! Oh wait…they were right.

    7. swplaza, I notice you say “church” and “membership” and”apostasy” and “atheist.”

      But nothing about truth, honesty or love. Or even God or Jesus.

      Mostly yours seems like a pæan to your own worthiness, obedience and discipleship to an organization.

    8. As a follower of Christ given His admonition “let hime who is without sin cast the first stone” I am not sure that I would label someone as in “Deep apostasy” because she is asking the church to admit that Joseph Smith used coercion to persuade 14 year old girls and others mens wives to have sex with him. Remember how Nephi said we should liken all things to ourselves? Would you buy it if Joseph Smith approached you and asked if he could have your 14 year old daughter or your spouse and, if you said no he (Joseph) would be killed by an angel and if you said yes you and your entire family would go to heaven. Don’t you find this a little bit suspicious? Isn’t the fact that the Church has kept all this hidden for so many years a problem for you? If not, how do you feel about the fact that Joseph Smith lied about and asked others to lie about his plural wives? I protested when they wouldn’t let my friend Mike go to my temple wedding because he is black. What’s wrong with speaking out about injustice. Why can’t Mormons speak their mind without being ostracized? Jesus spoke his mind when His religious leaders were in the wrong. Aren’t we trying to be like Him?

    9. If one has to become an ‘atheist’ before they become loving, kind, wise and fair, then God would prefer us all to become atheists, instead of believing in or associating with or listening to unkind unloving untrustworthy unrighteous abusive religious leaders who falsely profess to know or follow God.

      Of course Christ is the happy middle ground, who taught us to never follow any man or men or church, for they will always lead you astray to believe in false religions like the LDS Church that preaches and practices contrary to God’s laws & teaches it’s leaders & members to shun & abuse those who believe differently.

    10. The harsh judgement you display makes me so angry. I have been a non-member for 40 years and the most discouraging part of living by my own conscience is remarks like yours. You think you own the higher ground. I don’t believe that. Do you not have a kind bone in your body? You didn’t feel this wonderful woman’s angst? You don’t own the franchise on goodness. Find some humility.

  5. Why is it that people put so much effort into futile ideas? The LDS Church is NEVER going to ordain women and it is NEVER going to accept or promote LGBT or anything like unto it. Those ideas are fundamentally in conflict with the core of LDS Church beliefs and practices. First, it’s not a democracy and, second, those ideas are not up for debate, EVER. It is therefore completely futile to apply effort to those ideas with any hope of the LDS Church making a change in that direction. Therefore, any rational person engaged in such causes must be doing it for another purpose. The most likely purpose of such effort is to cause trouble—either for the LDS Church leaders and for faithful members or both—and to draw attention to oneself in order to make a career out of bashing the church. Just accept the fact that your ideas do not fit into the church and be ethical about it by withdrawing yourself from its ranks. Trying to stick around and pretend that one is a deserving of membership when one promotes these futile ideas is both intellectually dishonest and unethical.

    1. I agree somewhat swplaza as far as the church is not a democracy that garuntees equality or free speech, nor do they have to respect those things as a private entity. I do think woman could get priesthood and lgbt will be accepted eventually. I don’t see Kristi as a troublemaker necessarily, but perhaps an attention seeker. It is silly to jump up down throwing a fit for priesthood when a logical or rational person would go join the Community of Christ and get all the priesthood they want. That is the great thing about American competition, you don’t like Walmart you can go to Target. You don’t like the LDS you can go join the RLDS or something else. If Target has a product that Walmart doesn’t, rather than throwing a fit in front of Walmart you can just go to Target. Then if Walmart loses enough business due to this particular product they will carry it. Same thing with LDS, if they lose enough business over not carrying the product of giving women priesthood, then a revelation will come.

      1. Did you ever consider that some people may think and care about people other than themselves and whether or not they are treated fairly? As to the example of the choice between Walmart or Target, sometimes a customer may be treated unfairly but unless they speak up and make their experience public, unsuspecting customers may fall prey to the same injustice. Kristy did not say she knows the mormon church will give women the priesthood or accept homosexuality if she harangues them enough. She said she is speaking up and hoping to make a difference for those who will come after her. Whether or not that actually happens is irrelevant to the demands of her conscience to speak.

        She is standing up and being heard for what she believes is right in hopes that things will one day improve for women and gay people born into the mormon church. Do you honestly believe the mormon church cannot improve or be enlightened in any way? Would you not agree that the mormon church became better when it allowed black people full privileges? Or do you still believe they were right to nakedly discriminate against black people even though their recent essay repudiates all past racial discrimination?

        Don’t get me wrong, I sincerely hope Kristy frees herself from the dishonest and oppressive mormon machine someday. What an awful place for such a bright and courageous woman. However, I salute and support her for her steadfastness in trying to improve an organization that many are and will be burdened with by birth. I wish her strength and much luck in her efforts.

    2. Many people claim God’s church isn’t a democracy, yet the way I see it if he really had a church then all people would be worthy to sit at his table and partake. God’s house of order is probably not a hierarchy in an authoritarian power structure with dictators. I believe God is a participative and collaborative leader like a parent, mentor, or coach that would encourage input from disciples while conforming to absolute truth. I see a God who fosters teamwork in order to reach a consensus, instead of merely being a dictator, expecting the same from leaders. I think God would allow room for dissent, negotiation, discussion, and persuasion in utilizing people’s talents, skills, and abilities for the purposes of blessing each other. God and his disciples could work together to seek out various alternatives for things, find the best solutions to problems, and set user-friendly policies and doctrines that enable most people to be happy about. The gospel, the way I see it, is about God and his disciples combining their efforts in setting standards and preferences as different needs come up and change over the span of time. Could it be that God uses the membership of the church to temper its leadership? Maybe Mormon leaders are shutting out God and people are beginning to wake up and see the truth.

      1. HaroldTheCat, you have interesting opinions about god but those opinions are not shared by LDS church. They worship the god of the Bible who is a dictator and at times a very brutal dictator. So I think it best for you to probably exercise your American right to freedom of religion and find one closer to your opinions about god.

    3. swplaza – never say “NEVER.” 🙂 If the noose tightens enough, the GAs will cave like they always have. You’re right, the church doesn’t have to do anything. I found out eight years ago that when it comes to ethics, fairness, and being truthful, Mormon GAs are some of the worst examples there are. It is even more unfortunate that members – obviously such as yourself – support such unethical conduct. I can’t think of anything as despicable as cutting off a family member b/c of the church.

      So Kristy is a “trouble maker” huh? For shame that someone doesn’t buy all the lies. The church hasn’t begun to see trouble yet.

    4. Very prophetic. Someone with much more “authority” than you (Bruce R. McKonkie) made a similar statement about blacks receiving the priesthood.

    5. I don’t mean to be to dramatic, but swplasa, your logic would make a natzi party member proud. It is NOT “intellectually dishonest or unethical” to speak out against the direction you as a people or a religion is taking. We are of a church of common consent. Your ” if you don’t like it leave” if a form of tyranny and a tool for small minded dictators.

    6. Ultimately, swplaza, it may have less to do with changing the church than simply following wise, Mormon counsel: “It behooves every man who has been warned, to warn his neighbor.”

      And beyond simply a warning, to also let other people know there is life, health, joy, love and connection — and even true religion and spirituality — outside of being a worthy, obedient member of the Mormon organization and its dogma. And to not be afraid to think for yourself and even to leave.

      Brigham Young and his doctrine on race — and another 100 years of additional “prophets, seers & revelators” explaining, expanding, defending and justifying it — proves for all time that Top Mormon Leaders cannot reliably distinguish between their own bigotry and ignorance from the mind and will of the God they claim to be speaking for.

      You’re right, swplaza, the Mormon church is not a democracy. It’s corporate organization where membership in good standing depends on uncritical, unthinking acceptance of those Top Mormon Leaders.

    7. At first I though you were just a poser but then you said “like unto it” and i knew you were the real deal.

  6. ‘swplaza’ gives us the same banal “reasoning” as the LDS applied to their racism which apparently flourished if not started with BY. Remember, Utah had the OPTION to become a U.S. Territory (or NOT to) as either ‘slave’ or non-slave; with BY at the head, they fearlessly chose to enter as a slave territory.

    their racist decisions, choices, & actions continued until recently when they now Disavow any racist actions or ‘doctrine’… even though it was 100% taught and accepted as ‘divine’, directly from (the LDS) God.

    Like polygamy, they (current leaders) just can’t tell us what the origin of these past, well-understood teachings originated.

    Sheeple for dinner, anyone?

  7. Enjoyed the pod cast only had time for the last two. I’m 53 , been in the church 34 years and still get blasted for bringing up some topics in Sunday school or priesthood . I brought up racism in the early church and said they were wrong in some doctrines of the past. They mostly agreed on racism but almost threw me out the window to say they taught something wrong. I sustain the leaders as well but know they are men . I don’t know the right answer on OW ,I know the Lord doesn’t care if a mother holds her child in a blessing to refuse a mother that to me is silly, holding the baby isn’t part of the blessing. Women blessing and praying for others in not new as I’m sure you know. Women do have eternal power but at the moment we know little about it, probably due to men. This is just my thought but if I receive my priesthood thru my father patriarch , wouldn’t women receive there’s thru there mother matriarch? Sorry I have only questions, I’m glad to hear you have hope the church won’t remove your membership. Hope in Christ should never be lost, he is able to save us all . Jesus said be not unbelieving, he will not let you down. I wish I could say that for all men but I know better. I hope you and they are patient with the questions your asking, I see no reason to get upset about the questions. I hope your family can be more tolerant of your belief, many of mine disowned me for joining the church.

  8. There are enough intelligent, caring people leaving the LDS church to form a community that will replace the oppressive one they are leaving. Start by holding a dinner/ picnic / barb Q somewhere so like minded can gather and find another “family ” and support. We know from this experience how valiant these people are. They should not feel alone. There should be a welcome party for any soul that has seen the light and have to leave. God is not present where love is not present.

  9. Great podcast, thank you. I am full of admiration for Kristy and her courage. She has certainly paid a great price for standing up for what is right. I hope she is able to reconcile with her siblings one day. As for her parents, I think she has discovered that they love the church more than their own daughter. Very sad. Best wishes for her.

  10. Kristy, thank you for your tremendous courage to live authentically, in support of equality. You are an amazing role model for women today and for your daughters.

    I am in faith transition due to many church doctrines (especially polygamy) and a culture that I feel is harmful for youth. At this point, I don’t want my children to be exposed to church doctrine or culture. The pressure children receive after leaving primary is overwhelming. The indoctrination is harmful to both male and female children but especially female children.

    I anticipate being disowned by my true believing LDS mother once she learns of my need to separate myself from the patriarchy because her love and support is conditional based on me remaining an active LDS member and raising my children actively LDS.

    Thank you for sharing your personal story. It is so valuable to women in the church who struggle with the patriarchy. I am so grateful to hear your story. Thank you!

  11. Did I miss something in the interview?

    Did John ask Kristy if she thinks Joseph Smith was a prophet? Did he ask Kristy if she thinks Joseph Smith found the gold plates? Translated the Book of Abraham?

  12. Surely God has a work for anyone with a moral compass as bright and clear as yours, Kristy. You’re a woman well ahead of your time and you have the scrapes and bruises to show for it. Zion will be an entire society of souls who seek the well-being of their fellow travelers with the same passion you’ve shown. It takes an exceptional will to follow such a compass. That your will manifested itself even before your teenage years suggests that it is a gift. My heart broke listening to you describe your own family’s bitterness towards you. Do persist in forgiving them and loving them, for so did our Lord to those who reviled him. The Lord requires his disciples to lay everything on the alter in his cause. I think you’re off to an exceptional start.

    If the Church’s track record is any indication, your excommunication is a foregone conclusion. Although they will claim victory, it will be their loss. It is wildly ironic that the brouhaha during Relief Society that got you in trouble came on the day they were discussing Ezra Taft Benson’s Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet. That’s the speech in which Benson asserts that the prophet cannot lead the church astray and that current prophets trump dead prophets. The prophet at the time, Spencer W. Kimball, was deeply troubled by the speech and called on Benson to apologize to his fellow apostles which he did, although not to their satisfaction. It’s a pity the prophet didn’t have Benson apologize to the whole church for his heresy—it’s still being taught as the truth.

  13. Kristy, I listened today to all three hours and I’m hurting for you in your painful separation from your parents. Standing up for principle is a lonely affair. I know that struggle myself, but fortunately have many faithful family members and true friends who didn’t forsake me. I wish you peace and success in your journey and your new career, including your pursuits as a mother and raising those children which is by far the most daunting of your challenges and will be the most satisfying part of your life. I’m very confused that parents will cast aside their own offspring in favor of an imperfect religion led by imperfect men. Especially given that LOVE is the central tenant and commandment of the Gospel of Christ. The church goes through history stewing over obedience and compliance in often faithless tradition, ritual and tithing while the central tenants of the gospel go mostly unpracticed. It has embarrassingly found itself many times on the wrong side and stupefied by wrong policy on civil rights, sexism, racism, marriage and slavery. Your devotion to the church is admirable in trying to change what you know is wrong, however, please don’t wear out your life trying to change what really is only a part of life and truly not your priority. My hope would be for you to focus on your precious core family – relationships with life partner, children and associates and hopefully in time a re-connection with your parents and siblings. Those are what matters most in this life and the church should exist only to support us in that pursuit. Unfortunately it all too often does the opposite, gets in the way and pits us against each other in defending our positions and opinions on things that just don’t matter as much as a simple expression of love. The most liberating day of my life was when I was set free by my own excommunication to pursue a life outside of the orthodoxy of Mormonism and to simply form an authentic relationship with God and the most important souls in my life. It is just that simple and the resulting diversity of life experience has become more precious and enlightening each year. My relationship to God the Father is uniquely mine and I need the permission of no other man in order to pursue it. He loves me just as I love my own children and no organization is necessary in order to enjoy that fellowship. Religion may be a valuable school. At some point I believe we need to graduate. To claim you have the only truth on earth is arrogant and very naïve.

  14. Kristy,
    “Marks OF A CULT”

    My heart and deepiest sympathys go out to you. As you may already know. The LDS church is a very dangerous CULT. This Cult implements a variety of insidious manipulation tactics to maintain its Power, Control, Authority, Money and Blind- Obedience over its members, (victims). The use of fear mongering, shame and heavy indoctrination destroy the victims ability to cognitively function normally using reason, critical thinking, being analytical pecially those victims that are born into this type of Cult indoctrinated close to birth or in childhood. lack the basic skills to observe hink critically reason, fairness, who’s founder was a charismatic leader (Joseph Smith) who used Religious themes in order obtain Power, Authority, Control over others. After gaining the aforementioned attributes. He then received notariety and aculades from within the group as it’s Leader, prophet, guru, enlighten one, . He actively began to practice countless insidious manipulation tactic’s to ember’s Control, Power, Authority, Blind- Obedience, Money ect, ect. shun you over Religious differences. The practice of shunning is a very well documented CULT behavior. Your parents practice this behavior exasperated by years of indoctrinatiin sympathy and heart goes out to you.

  15. Thanks Kristy and John for the good cry sheesh. that was the most heart stringpullery ive felt in forever. I know I’m gunna listen to this again too damnit…
    Just wanna say this: as a kid, i had the exact same mindset as Kristy. I questioned everything. I happen to never have a confirmation, so i never believed it, but I can relate intensely to her need for truth, F the consequences (excuse my nature) and the PAIN that comes with just having some kind of genetic dice that just deMANDS it, from childhood… ya know? It literally colors most every memory about growing up, especially in Utah… the disconnect between church and whats really going on at home and the various forms of intolerance in a church named after a man who was nothing BUT tolerant. ladies of the evening, lepers, disabled, the gays, etc… (nod to the 5 Supreme Court black dress wearing lawyers who voted for common sense)
    So when I hear you so clearly (5 star quality John, fistbump) and excruciatingly describe the experience… and of course most of that was outside any of your words… really was a very human moment for me… and that happens rarely… especially when listening to a podcast about the religion i consider to be a cult, and its effect on the first 17 years of my life, pardon my nature again, sorry) and I wanna express a thank you Kristy for that.
    The reason why I invested an hour of my life into part 1 was because you said up front that you were going to be very honest in a way maybe you hadnt before… got my attention as a fellow truth loving person 🙂 Thanks for the bravery. obviouysly hooked me into part 2, and now im about to start part 3.
    I’m really sorry that happened to you Kristy, and continues to, but (and I say this rarely to a person) I’m not worried about you at all in the future with dealing with it. And that’s just 100% straight up respect from me to you because of the obvious intelligence and wisdom and experience I hear in your voice. Its 3d haha. It’s the kind of combination that protects people from being disturbed TOO far from their balance… their self defined center. im THAT confident you’re good.
    Shout out to your husband. Hes no less a fav person of mine than you are cuz we’re all about equality here after all… what a stud.
    on to part 3

  16. Great interview, thanks for sharing. I hope Kristy’s parents come around and accept Kristy. Shunning seems manipulative and contrary to the freewill of choosing a belief system. Also, shunning compels one to choose things for the wrong reasons. It’s sounds like Kristy’s parents are disregarding the 11th Article of faith.

  17. That story about you and the women talking about he racist comments… the african american womans word choie…HILARIOUS! I WAS ROARING LAUGHIN OUT LOUD! THIS MUST BE MADE INTO A SKIT HAHAHAHHAAAA….
    thanks that for that. and then your courage without missin a beat… to have her back… like a true sister would? sheeeeeeiii….
    had me dying laughin again… what a moment hahaha

    oh my gosh, if this kind of hilarity is possible at church, im gunna start goin again for the first time in 15 years! saved by the gospel by as search for unintentional comedy? im gunna say that might be a first???

    man, if I was John, I wouldve started howlin laughin after Kristy said, “and the room erupted. it did not… it did not go well…” hahahahhahaaaa

  18. Biased questions:

    Very interesting interview. John, I often hear Mormon Stories get criticized/mocked for being so long. In the oft chance you’re susceptible to that criticism, please know that in my opinion the long form deep dives of these interviews are the greatest strengths of Mormon Stories. I listen to everything, but I get excited when it’s a three-parter or more.

    Three criticisms that for some reason inspired me to comment (which I rarely do, so maybe this isn’t fair):

    1) the leading questions are getting a little too obvious. And you maybe inadvertently admitted your bias down the stretch of part three saying “maybe we’ve been out-strategized by the church…” What’s your strategy? I’d prefer the stories stand alone rather than you guys strategizing
    2) while the Calderwood interviews were mildly interesting, they were less-so because all they’ve really done is post things on Facebook. It’s kind of laughable how badly Mormon Stories/John wants their stories to be on par with all the other high profile excommunications of people that we’d actually heard of before they were interviewed on Mormon Stories. I think I’ve heard John lump himself, Kate Kelly, Rock, Denver, and The Calderwoods a half dozen times and it always sounds goofy tacking them on. Like if you’re going to include The Calderwoods you should also mine the hundreds of people on Mormon Expression Voices as well.
    3) Kristy’s parents and family seem pretty harsh here by mormon standards. Everybody else John has recently interviewed seem to have supportive family (in the “we still want to be a family” sense). I really feel for Kristy’s situation, but in my opinion her situation is borderline extreme. Yes, it obviously happens, but in the modern era it’s not the norm

    Thanks for the interview, take care.

    Aaron

  19. Thanks so much for sharing your story, let me start by saying I believe
    God loves you so much and hard as it is to live in this world this work your doing is what he would have you do.
    If I was your Bishop I would call you as a Sunday school teacher and have you help members take their heads out of clouds and learn the truth about so many things people have done in Gods name.
    I think one of the problems with most of the teachers in wards is one they can,t teach and two they know only whats in the manuals and don’t even know half of the information on LDS.org
    May the Lord continue to bless you and I pray your family will follow Christ repent and love you.
    Maybe one day they will learn that if they can,t love their small family here on Earth what hope will they have if they where ever to have a world of there own.

  20. Blessing a baby is not an ordinance, it is a prayer. She could have hold the baby without any problem. Just a few months ago we had a nonmember male holding the baby while the HT blessed the baby.

    1. The difference? A nonmember male is a “prospective priesthood holder,” while a woman never is. Another example of male privilege, even for nonmembers.

  21. The heartbreaking family severance stories of Kristy Money and Megan Phelps-Roper, the granddaughter of Fred Phelps who headed Westboro Baptist Church (find podcast here: samharris dot org slash podcast) are strikingly similar. Both women are about the same age, the oldest child of about seven children and born into families full of professionals- doctors, lawyers and college professors. Great amounts of education and training however have not led to much enlightenment. Both families’ rigid religious belief systems have trumped all and led them, in the name of “love,” to shun their daughters and forbid contact of those daughters to their siblings. Where (or maybe even WHO) is God in all of this? It is all just too sad, lives and time so tragically wasting away.

    1. At first I didn’t realize that this was the same person I heard on a podcast with Gina Colvin (Athoughtfulfaith.org) done this past May. I made the connection, however, when Kristy told John briefly about the methods of discipline her parents used to try to control her rebelliousness (such as writing the sentence 70000 times!). In the other podcast she gave more alarming details of how they tried to control her behavior while she was growing up. The fact that she was rebellious seems to have more to do with their failure as parents than with her own shortcomings.

      I found their method in dealing with Kristy astounding and frightening. It seems to me that their method of disciplining her when she was a youth was a form of child abuse, mainly perpetrated by her mother, and allowed by her father. Then, when I heard the despicable way they have treated her recently, I am really disgusted with them. They may be “good people” on one level, but in this very important and central way, they have greatly failed.

      I don’t think this is at all the norm in our church, but I find it incredulously disappointing that their behavior seems to be acceptable. If I were a bishop in their ward, I’d want pull them in for counseling and threaten them with discipline if they didn’t change their ways.

      Hurrah for her husband, and her in-laws, and to those few members of her extended family who are willing to follow Christ’s teachings and love in spite of differences of opinion.

  22. Kristy, I listened to this podcast and realized that knew your parents at Harvard. You definitely came by your church struggles honestly! I have a daughter your age, and you were undoubtedly in Primary with her. I will FB you with details.

  23. You are brave and I admire your courage Kristy. If I weren’t such a coward I would publicly support you. I can’t believe Kim, a social worker, could possibly think this is how the savior would want her to treat her daughter. Jenny M with the lesbian daughter is far more Christlike. I pray Kim comes to her senses. Now I will look at those pictures of Kim and Sherrie dew with disgust. They need forgiveness, not you!

  24. I love the image of Kristy baptizing her husband. I saw the image (and other images of women giving blessings) on the OW Facebook page and thought they were very touching. I don’t see how people can be offended by seeing women giving blessings, and I don’t think she is asking much by asking that women be allowed to hold their babies during blessings. On a random note, I remember doing temple baptisms and I was asked my name and when I said my full name and that it included my maiden name, they ignored my maiden name and continued with the baptisms. I thought, is getting through twenty names more important than slowing down and saying one more name, my full name? I who took my Saturday off to drive two hours away from home to spend the day at the temple to do baptisms, and this is how they want to thank me for my time? Ugh. Anyway, I have left the church so I don’t really care, and never did care for the idea of women holding the priesthood but I can see why those who choose to stay will, and I applaud them. I’m sure women would do a much better job of blessings and being patient enough to say someone’s full name than what a man might consider extraneous.

    Her voice and perspective is much needed. When I left the church and heard of intellectuals wanting to stay with the church, knowing everything that they know about it glaring problems, because they felt they could make a difference, I thought, who are they kidding? Then I read, later on, Kristy’s article in the Salt Lake Tribune, “LDS Church should make clear Smith was wrong to take 14-year-old wife” and I thought, bam, that’s why. Her voice and perspective is much needed. Who would had thought to consider that?

    I am sorry to hear of her relationship with her parents and that she was banned from attending her grandfather’s funeral. That’s heartbreaking.

  25. Kristy is ready and willing to sever ties with her parents and siblings, based on the false belief that she will be providing a future benefit to her daughters, which they may never want nor ask for.

    I cannot think of a better definition of hypocrisy.

    I realize that many in this forum will condemn my “authentic” feelings, but I believe that they are as true and genuine as every emotion and righteous desire which Kristy honestly believes she possesses.

    My authentic feelings are that I cannot wait to see Kristy Money excommunicated for her failure to comply with her Bishop’s instructions, which were set forth for her to maintain good standing within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    1. To express joy in another person’s pain is the pinnacle of un-Christlike behavior. May you never be the recipient of such behavior, Brother Jaric.

      1. Agreed, Utahiker801, schadenfreude is a sign of emotional and spiritual sickness. We all are broken and in need of repentance and only Jesus Christ can succor us. Be at peace, Brother Jaric.

    2. I am deeply grateful for Marko’s authentic feelings. Every so often I need a reminder of what a sprawling corporatocracy that values obedience above all else the church has become. Yes, you’ll be happy that people like Kristy (and me, for that matter) are gone from your church, Marko, but the amount of intelligence, compassion, courage and love that will leave with her is something I doubt you can make up for. To impugn and mock the authentic emotions and ethical choices of another who has not targeted you directly is the height of self righteousness. You best hope that God you believe in has more compassion for you than you clearly have for Kristy.

    3. “Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, small minds talk about people.” Eleanor Roosevelt

      Marko, try to be better than small.

  26. Thanks John and Kristy. I have been out of the chains for a long time and relate to all that is said here. Realization brought me to a beautiful place of non-separation, love, and fulfillment.

  27. Marko, you and other men need to stop telling women what you think women need. Y’all have no idea. Authentic feeling or not, it’s your own opinion which of course you’re entitled to it but whether you think Kristy’s daughters will want it or not, the point is, they will have a choice.

  28. Here’s a woman who graduated from college while still a teenager, has a PhD in psych. And they are disciplining this woman!!??

    What could be more stupid and counter-productive? What’s wrong with this picture? There is something reversed here. Kristy, maybe you could offer your male accusers some free counseling. This group should be sitting around in a circle consulting with you on how to improve the church. They also could benefit from some group therapy, where they are allowed to say how they REALLY FEEL without restraint or censorship. (I know, it will never happen.)

    I personally think your accusers will regret how they treated you for the rest of their lives, and could use a little counseling, and indeed, your forgiveness.

    The Mormon paradox: The church wants people to search for the truth but punishes critical thinking and does not want critical thinkers.
    Too bad, but they can’t have it both ways.

    Too bad, too, the church is censoring and kicking out those who should be the leaders.

    I recall a young Mormon girl who had just graduated with a Masters in Psychology. She stands up in testimony meeting and says something you just don’t say in testimony meeting. “I no longer have have a testimony.”

    This pod cast with Kristy in psych and a PhD dissertation in suicide, reminds me of a psych professor I knew at BYU (long gone from BYU) who told me he often had to go out and keep return missionaries from committing suicide.

    I like Plaedian’s idea: “There are enough intelligent, caring people leaving the LDS church to form a community that will replace the oppressive one they are leaving. Start by holding a dinner/ picnic / barb Q somewhere so like minded can gather and find another “family ” and support.”

    What a loving, caring, smart super group this would be!!!

    Love you all.

  29. Wow. Amazing. Kristy, you are brave and truly are “standing for truth and righteousness.”

    I’m sad for how your parents and family are treating you. You do have supporters.

  30. Fabulous podcast. I have so profound admiration and respect for Kristy. I cheered when I read her op.eds in the tribune. Thank you.

    I have told my children many times that the purpose of the church is not to make people unhappy or sever/divide family relationships. I have let them know that if they ever don’t want to be Mormon, they don’t have to continue. I want them to lead good lives as happy and authentic people. Love and family supercedes everything. I’m sad your parents have shunned you. My guess is that your siblings will come around as they age and as kong as you continue to reach out to them with genuine love and affection.

  31. Kristy, I loved hearing your story.. the part about losing your family was particularly heartbreaking. But, I feel like I can really relate with you on your mom… I think our moms are very similar. My mom labelled me from a young age as difficult, stubborn, strong-willed, tantrumatic, hard-to-handle, disobedient, etc. Truth is, she never really understood me or knew how to really love me. When I was a teenager she used to tell me all the time that she “hoped I had a kid just like me” (because that would just be soooo awful, right?).

    Guess what? I did! He is 5 years old now and a delight to have around. Yes, he can be stubborn and difficult, but usually in those times, he just needs extra love and freedom to make his own choices. Having a child like me has actually helped me heal some wounds from my childhood (labels) and learn to love myself.

    You are awesome… sounds like you have a kid like yourself too, which I hope will help you in the same way that it did for me. Your parents are really missing out.

  32. Great podcast. One gaping hole in the interview was the lack of perspective of Kristy’s husband. It only leaves me to assume that he has been very supportive of Kristy’s activism. That is probably the best thing going for her and much more valuable than support and acceptance of her parents.

    I have a daughter being raised in the church and I am very proud of her character. I fear that the current church will kill her character because of its treatment of women. I have seen that character killed over and over as girls and women get fewer opportunities to take true responsibilities in their lives. I see mothers who are weak mothers because they of the lack of confidence in themselves and because they do not learn to take ownership of being a parent. The church fosters an environment that is toxic to girls and women relating to actually progressing in life. Rather, the church feeds women guilt, feelings of inadequacies, and really fewer resources are dedicated to girls than boys. Thank you, Kristy, for fighting against this. I hope the church does not hurt my daughter’s potential to be an influence for good in this life. Despite being a man, I consider myself a feminist because of my aspirations for my daughter to have a good life.

  33. John and Kristy this was a fantastic interview. Thank you for sharing your story, Kristy. It was one of my favorites.

  34. A couple more things…

    It’s hard not to make the point that Kristy’s act of participating in this interview really in no ways serves her desire to reconcile with her parents. Rather, it completely undermines that. At points in the interview I wanted to send a nasty email to her father. Now, I really feel played when I realize how badly she lampooned them. With that perspective, I feel like Kristy is giving us a bit of a glimpse into how she rebelled against her parents–not to make excuses for them. They are model Pharisees in today’s church of Pharisees. Nonetheless, I don’t think Kristy should have aired her dirty laundry on MS. It was completely self serving in some ways–twisting the knife with her parents. The MS constituency completely bought into the attack on her parents, too. John, I get a ton of value from your podcasts (this one, too) but I don’t think it was wise to let her be so self-destructive. I have seen plenty of PhDs who did not have there stuff together. Relating to her parents, Kristy does not have it together. It makes me question if she really believes in her passion of equality for women or is she just fighting her parents.

    Last point–church discipline against the Van Allens, Calderwoods, etc., is not newsworthy, as suggested in the podcast. These people are not leading a movement the way John D, Kate, September 6, etc. did.

    1. I heard her speaking of her parents very differently than you did. Did you not hear her say more than once that her father is a good man? When did she insult her parents at all? What she did is relate their words and actions, in an incredibly non-accusatory way. She did express her sadness at their actions toward her, but she did not criticize or condemn them in any way.

      The sad truth is that their actions condemn them, and the fact that you feel she lampooned them is evidence of that. Upon a simple telling of Ms. Money’s parents’ actions, you, I and most thinking people see that they are not good people. They are not doing a good thing. She did not need to lampoon them because their actions already do that. It seems that Kristy Money accepts that her parents are doing what they believe is right, despite the pain it causes her. She still speaks to them after they have shunned, shamed and kept her from her siblings! These parents may honestly believe they are doing the right thing, which only demonstrates how damaging the mormon church truly is.

    2. “One” is a movement. all movements start with “One” You need to watch the movie the Power of One. You don’t need a movement to take a stand. You take a stand

  35. Miss Money, thank you for your insight. I appreciate your point of view, and support your efforts to obtain equality. I pray that your family will come to see that the church is not your strongest bond. God bless,
    Jv

  36. Great interview John and Kristy. Thanks so much for sharing. I did have a question that kept going through my mind. If your parents have closed the door on you having a relationship with your siblings why haven’t you turned the table on them and threatened isolating their Grandchildren from them. I think it would do them good to see what the type of “discipline” they wish to impose actually feels like. I would have to at least threaten it, but you sound like a much better person than me. Thanks for acting on your convictions. You are having more of an impact than you could ever imagine.

  37. What an intelligent and compassionate person Kristy Money is. I’m so sad that her parents cannot see what a brilliant daughter they have. I hope that relationship mends over time. I want to personally thank her for her courage, and for fighting the good fight. Not just in her feminist views, but more especially for her fighting against the racism in this church. I’m just shocked that the church, or more specifically “the brethren” have been able to get by with the rediculous explanations they come up with regarding the priesthood ban on the blacks. It was that issue, more specifically the church’s essay on that issue, that opened my eyes to the deceptions in the church. How so many members cannot see it, and are not outraged by it, is beyond me. Best of luck to you Kristy, you have a long row to hoe, but we need people like you trailblazing the way. God bless you and your family.

  38. It is too bad that Kristen Money’s parents are listening to Sheri Dew on this. The irony is that from an LDS perspective Sister Dew has no ecclesiastical authority over the Moneys, and she is not entitled to receive relevation for them. Instead, the Moneys should have gone to their bishop for guidance.

    If anyone should face discipline, it is Kristin’s parents for acting in such an unchristlike manner. I thought families were forever, and that Mormons didn’t shun those with different beliefs. As an example, Lehi didn’t shun Laman and Lemuel, or keep his other children from them.

  39. John, just a couple of questions to you and Kristy. Why do you want to tear down the Mormon church so much? Do you believe that Joseph smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ? Do you believe the Book of Mormon is a second witness of Jesus Christ? Do you believe the bible is the word of God? Do you believe there is a God in Heaven that created man in his image? Or do you believe more in survival of the fittest and the theory of evolution.

    I think people should know what you believe because you spend a lot of time trying to tear down the Mormon religion to the best of your ability and still seem to act like a believer. If you don’t Believe in the modern day prophets then what do you believe really and why?

    The scriptures are also clear on topics of homosexual behavior and priesthood. Also modern day prophets are also clear on the topics. Could you please explain to us why you are coming out in rebellion to the biblical and modern day prophets teachings?

    How about giving equal time on your pod cast to believers in the church. To my knowledge you have not interviewed those who live the religion and love it. The humble followers of Christ who care deeply in caring for the poor and needy among them. How about their stories? There are literally thousands you could choose to interview (all around you) who have just as interesting stories and have overcome many things in their lives and have come out the better for it with their faith that much stronger.

    I personally feel the church does its best to carry forward the Good news of the gospel. Yes, some families and individuals in the church can do better — the church has sinners and no one is perfect. but try to look at the big picture, can you name another church who give more in humanitarian aid, takes care of the poor among them, and sends missionaries to the 4 corners of the earth to spread the good word. Maybe it would be best to think more on the positives of the religion than sharpening your ax so much.

    It seems to me you are doing this for some reason unknown to most of us. If you want to start your own religion I guess that is an option open to you. I am curious as to why you are so bent against the church?

    Thx for your consideration. Marty Israelsen

    1. Here is the answer to your plea : http://www.cesletter.com

      However some have an overriding need to “believe” or don’t want to know if there is anything untrue about the church. The church consists of people and its leaders. The issue is with the leaders for the most part as the people are often innocent bystanders/yes man/etc who have been emasculated form the day they were born to live inside Platos’ cave. Ask them leaders if they are prophets/seers/revelators and the only answer they can give you is “we are sustained as such” They will personally will not claim it. I’ll take a bet like the Prophet Elijah.

    2. Marty, a cursory look over the list of podcasts (http://mormonstories.wpengine.com/episodes-list-chronological/) will show that John has interviewed literally dozens of faithful LDS scholars and thinkers, many of whom have dedicated their entire careers to defending the church:

      Edward Kimball (son of President Kimball)
      Daniel Peterson (former head of Maxwell Institute)
      Terryl and Fiona Givens
      Richard Bushman
      Claudia Bushman
      Neylan McBaine
      Adam Miller
      Gregory Prince
      Brian Hales
      Grant and Heather Hardy
      Ralph Hancock (BYU Professor)
      Ted Lyon (BYU Professor, former mission president)
      Darius Gray (founder of Genesis Group)
      Margaret Young (BYU Professor)
      John Lynch (Chairman of FAIR)
      Dan Wotherspoon
      Kent Larsen
      Nate Oman
      Rosalynde Welch
      Dawn and Morris Thurston
      Lisa Butterworth
      Kristine Haglund
      Jana Riess
      Michael MacKay (BYU Professor)
      Bill Bradshaw (Retired BYU Professor)
      Charles Harrell (BYU Professor)
      Jennifer Finlayson-Fife

      I’d suggest you do your research before making these kinds of assertions.

      1. Hi Rolf,

        Thanks for pointing this out. In truth I have only visited this site once so I am sorry that I assumed too much. However, I did review Edward Kimball’s interview and loved it. My Dad served in the same mission as Edward in Holland back in the day. I am glad that John has at least interviewed some of both sides of the issue.

        I would really like to have John interview himself or have someone interview him — to tell his story. Do you know if this has already been done?

        I think that it is safe to say now (after viewing cesletter.com interview) that John does not believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints at all. But I am still left wondering if he believe in Jesus Christ and/or God. It would also be nice to know his views on Evolution as they apply to his way of thinking now.

      2. Hey Rolf,
        Don’t flog me, but I just saw that John has his story in the list:} I will take a gander.

    3. Marty,

      I would be willing to bet you did not listen to the podcast before making the assumptions you made in your message. The shaming and tearing apart of families that happens when someone suddenly decides to question is anything but Christ-like. Just like Kristy’s parents decided not to let her into her home, there are hundreds if not thousands of cases where Mormon families get torn apart because of the faith. My wife filed for divorce and only after weeks of grieving and trying to work through things did she back out. The stories go on and on. I’m willing to bet that if you went through a situation like mine, Kristy’s or anyone else feeling the pain of rejection, your opinion of the church would be completely different. You would see John as someone who is trying to help, heal others and bring awareness to a church that has been on the wrong side of debates every time. Not one that has given so much in humanitarian aid (did you really mean this??) or spread the “good work”. Open your eyes, go visit other churches and compare. Then come back with what you’ve learned.

  40. Your parent’s behavior is shameful. They call themselves “Christians”? Where is God’s LOVE in them???

  41. I just don’t understand how such an ardent supporter of Ordain Women, when asked for her testimony, wouldn’t have anything to say about priesthood. But this is *the* reason why I’ve never been able to take OW seriously. If I thought its members actually cared deeply about the holy priesthood itself, I’d probably be a lot more supportive of what they’re doing.

  42. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    AND A BIG APPLAUSE!

    Kristy you are following your ‘moral compass’, your higher self! You need to continue to listen to your inner voice, that voice that no one can take from you. Trust what you are feeling inside, regardless of what everyone and everything around you might be saying to the contrary.

    It is no ‘coincidence’ that you have gotten to where you are today and have been aligned with the people you have met on your journey. There is something so much bigger working with you. You have talents and gifts that have put you where you are today, you have a voice that needs to be heard. You have a mission and you are on it!

    I am in awe of you.

    And yes, as Einstein said-

    “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man(woman) who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his(her) opinions courageously and honestly.”

    As a mother, wife, LDS woman, I long for the day when the other half of this church can have a voice because a ‘woman’ refused to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chose to instead express her opinions courageously and honestly!

    Your parents can’t understand now, but they will. You are their teacher and that is very difficult for a parent to realize in their children.

  43. Kristy has redefined the law of tithing for herself, and she disclosed that she has paid $0.00 in tithing during her adult life, and yet she declares herself as a full tithe payer each year during tithing settlement, and answers affirmatively on the same during her bi-annual temple recommend interviews.

    Some might call Kristy a freeloader, hypocrite, and/or assume that she has a massively inflated ego based on her desire to govern the direction and doctrine of the LDS Church. However, it appears that Kristy’s inner struggles go far deeper than that (i.e., oppositional defiant personality disorder), as she seems to have struggles with any and all people in positions of authority like parents, Bishops, and Stake Presidents. In March 2015 her Bishop asked her to start paying a tithing of 10% of her gross earnings like 99.9% of the faithful LDS population does, and Kristy’s response was that the Bishop was being “intrusive” and “shaming” her. Furthermore, Kristy repeatedly stated that the Church needed to “de-escalate” regarding excommunicating her for her apostasy, but she never seemed to even consider the possibility of de-escalating herself and complying with their conditions.

    I’m hopeful that at some point that Kristy will see that she does have choice in these matters, and that she can recognize how much of a waste of her amazing talents it is to continue fighting against God’s true prophet and Apostles on the earth.

    1. Chihauhau,
      I was raised mormon and decided it wasn’t for me in my late teens. In my late 20’s I had my name removed from the roles. So I understand your anger and fear. Please don’t be mean though. Her parents won’t let her in their house. That is not the way people act, let alone people who claim to be religious and “good”. I don’t think that saying Kristy has a disorder is helpful.

      1. I wondered which part of my comment that you thought was mean, but thank you for clarifying the “disorder” was what you were referring to.

        There are two ways to interpret my unqualified although likely accurate diagnosis that Kristy Money is compelled by a oppositional defiant personality disorder. Picture a whiny internal voice, “but I really, really, really, wanted to hold my baby during the blessing,” as compared to a more rational voice — “Really??? At such a high cost?”.

        I believe that Kristy easily meets 4 of the 8 conditions, and particularly from this interview the first two which are:

        1. actively refuses to comply with majority’s requests or consensus-supported rules;
        2. performs actions deliberately to annoy others;

        If Kristy Money is continuing down a path to ruin her life and completely destroy relations with her parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, and even the Church (from a TBM perspective), then I felt that it was worthwhile for her to at least consider such a possibility, and to subsequently seek counseling if she felt it was warranted.

        Many of the comments say that her parents behavior is “shameful,” but very few of those recognize that Kristy has power to change and build bridges too.

        1. Why all the focus on Kristy? Isn’t there an autocratic parenting disorder you can also diagnose her parents with?

          1. “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and mental illness is in the eye of the controller.” Kristy’s parents are very controlling in the way they have treated her, and would never consider themselves to have a mental disorder. It is often the controlling people who classify those who challenge them as being mentally ill, not themselves or other controlling people. Dissidents in the Soviet Union were considered mentally ill, children who do not conform to the rigid structure of the school systems are often drugged, and antebellum slaves who wanted to escape were considered mentally ill.

        2. Gadzooks Chihauha, you’re rattling around in here like a punctured party balloon hoping to attract some kind of attention before losing all its’ gas. Kristi has clearly pierced your cocksure ignorance with her thoughtful dialogue and insightful questioning. A friendly caveat here, you may not be ready for Mormon Stories if it’s going to set off this kind of gaseous reaction. Check with your priesthood leaders for a list of faith promoting sites. Candid discussion is clearly too much meat for you right now.

          1. Thank you for making me smile Xposit.

            It is truly an entertaining experience to be chastised by an apostate.

            “A friendly caveat here,” goodness is based on what you do, and not based on what you know, or what podcasts you listen to.

        3. It is a mother’s nature to be oppositional and defiant, when it comes to her offspring. It’s her hormones. Like a mother hen sitting on eggs or a challenge to a mother’s nature to
          handle her offspring the way she wants to.

          Many women are oppositional and defiant just before their period and before and after the birth of their baby, even hostile. Bewildered males need to try to understand this about women.

          Love you all.

    2. paying a tithing of 10% of her gross earnings like 99.9% ? where do they teach you to pay that is a tithing. the scriptures define the tithing in a completely different way:”…shall pay one tenth of all INTEREST annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever…” Doctrine and Convenants 119:4

  44. Kristy,

    As the grandmother of two young girls being raised in the Mormon Church, THANK YOU! Thank you for doing what you can to make their future open to greater possibilities, greater equality, as well as less damaging and less shaming.

  45. I listened to your story and my heart goes out to you. I am so sorry you have experienced such an outcome.

    I have come out to my family and most friends this year. I am exceedingly blessed to have their continued love and support regardless of my new decision.

    I am moved by your strength and love for others. One NEEDS to be true to oneself. PEOPLE come before religion. That is something many do not understand. Stay strong!!

  46. I was absolutely devastated to hear about Kristy’s family. It really reminded me of Scientology’s “Suppressive Person” identification. That’s quite scary to me. I am saddened to hear that our tribe is resorting to things like that. No points, SLC.

  47. What an amazing woman. Wow. I’m like John I feel privileged, my family still across and loves me. So hard for her I bet to get kicked out of the home AS AN ADULT!!! Odd family.

  48. Kristy, I really admire your courage. When I read your op-Eds in the tribune I was so impressed by your wisdom and courage, and I agree with you 100%, especially the one about JS taking a 14 year old wife. Keep up the good work. Even though you have so many haters, please know that so many love and admire you!

  49. Also, my heart really hurt for you when you called yourself a disobedient child. To me it sounded like you feel that you were a bad child, but your examples show that was not true at all. Some quotes for you: “punishment may make us obey the orders we are given, but at best it will only teach an obedience to authority, not a self-control which enhances our self-respect”–Bruno Bettelheim
    “I have always tried to be obedient regarding important matters like not being scalded to death by burning oil, but when public opinion takes a route far from one’s inner conviction, one cannot value disobedience too highly.” –Barbara Dana
    “Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
    ― Henry David Thoreau

    1. Now that Ive heard the rest of the podcast, I’m just shocked by your parents’ behavior. I’m so sorry for all of your pain!

  50. In my opinion Kristy exemplifies the best tradition of Mormonism—the pursuit of truth, courage of conviction, and desire for the equality that a real Zion would naturally gravitate towards with no distinction as to male/female, white or black, bond or free.

    As to not sustaining leadership, as Shakespeare portrayed King Lear had three daughters—Goneril, Regan and Cordelia. Of the three who really sustained their King and Father? Regan and Goneril who flattered and “sustained” their father in all that he did to stay in good graces out of fear and personal reward or Cordelia who loved her father/King and community to tell speak the truth and resist what she believed was error?

    Any church, person or family that resorts to demanding that a loved one follow them because of their supposed authority or else rather then using “persuasion, love kindness, etc” have by that very act lost their priesthood.

    When I have read the articles published by Kristy I hear the voice of a Priestesses and Prophetess–for Priesthood is about truth, virtue and power and not office and I see both of these qualities in Kristy.

  51. In my opinion Kristy exemplifies the best tradition of Mormonism—the pursuit of truth, courage of conviction, and desire for the equality that a real Zion would naturally gravitate towards with no distinction as to male/female, white or black, bond or free.

    As to not sustaining leadership, as Shakespeare portrayed King Lear had three daughters—Goneril, Regan and Cordelia. Of the three who really sustained their King and Father? Regan and Goneril who flattered and “sustained” their father in all that he did to stay in good graces out of fear and personal reward or Cordelia who loved her father/King and community to tell speak the truth and resist what she believed was error?

    Any church, person or family that resorts to demanding that a loved one follow them because of their supposed authority or else and not “persuasion, love kindness, etc” have by that very act lost their priesthood.

    When I have read the articles published by Kristy I hear the voice of a Priestesses and Prophetess–for Priesthood is about truth, virtue and power and not office and I see both of these qualities in Kristy.

    1. Ron,

      Can you give examples to back up what you wrote:

      “the best tradition of Mormonism—the pursuit of truth, courage of conviction, and desire for the equality that a real Zion would naturally gravitate towards with no distinction as to male/female, white or black, bond or free.”

      There is no such tradition in Mormonism. It is what all of us would love to see… perhaps you meant something different?

  52. I certainly do not rejoice with Kristy in the recent Supreme Court ruling regarding same sex marriage. The US Constitution does not even mentioned marriage. According to the Tenth Amendment, any matter that is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution is left to the states and the individuals. I believe that those Supreme Court justices who voted yes on the ruling need to be impeached, as per the Constitution. We do not need more Federal Government influence in marriage related issues.

    1. I think there is a good chance you’d say the same thing when the Feds went after the LDS Church over polygamy. And then you’d have to deal with the Church caving in to that. Hmmm … How long will the Church fight against the tide this time?

      1. The Federal Government did not have the jurisdiction over polygamy laws either. The same Tenth Amendment issue applies in that case as well.
        However, it is an absolute tenant of Church doctrine that same-sex “marriage” is not permitted, but it is not absolute tenant that a man can legally be limited to one wife.

  53. Einstein famously said, “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”

    Thank you Kristi for staying true to your conscience and speaking up rather than simply going along just to get along. Too many in the church are cowed into silence by the fear that they too may be subjected to discipline should they speak honestly about their concerns. My mother spent a lifetime as a faithful Mormon living, all the while, in fear.

    While I have seen, first hand, the many wonderful things Mormon culture is capable of producing I have experienced the flip side of that as well. When one within a family unit does not conform, there is no depth to which the church will not stoop to isolate, humiliate and disgrace that member, the family unit be damned. The attempts by your priesthood leaders to silence you, along with your family’s attempts to shun you into compliance, represent the absolute worst the Mormon culture is capable of producing.

    Here wishing you and Rolf good luck in all your future endeavors whatever they may be. Thanks for again for speaking up on behalf of your daughter and all those who are bound to follow.

  54. It sound like she doesn’t want to be a Mormon. The religion is clearly against so many things that she is for. Religions are not a buffet nor are they made by man. If she doesn’t agree with Mormonism, then she should find a religion that is better in line with her worldview. Changing a divinely inspired religion is not the solution to her personal politics.

    1. It sounds to me like she DOES agree with Mormonism, but she doesn’t agree with adults marrying 14-year-olds. Am I crazy, or is there a middle ground here??

  55. When I read Kristy’s op ed about Joseph Smith and his marriage to a 14-year-old, I felt so much gratitude for it. Kristy’s voice of sanity was so needed! “No” to grooming young girls (or boys) for polygamy. No! No! No! Thanks for your courage, Kristy!

  56. swplaza…Before someone believes the idea that the church “never changes” and that’s it’s not possible for women to get the priesthood, I need to remind you as I mentioned in an earlier post that my friend Mike couldn’t go to my wedding because he was black. I protested and was told that my efforts were in vain. Obviously, this has changed. Also, at my wedding, they asked me to make the motion of cutting my throat and pulling out my bowels if I revealed the special temple secrets…This has changed as well. The church is changing all the time and before you know it, women will have the priesthood. And when we get it, we will stop chasing people away simply because they state their mind. Just sayin!

  57. I want to thank Kristy for discussing the issue of tithing. I needed to hear that because I have been in a similar position for 10 years. I think the church is not yet familiar with the level of debt required for college these days. My husband and I both hold Ph.D.s so ours is astronomical and there is little hope that we’ll ever have excess to pay our tithing, despite the fact that we have a decent income. Our minimum student loan payments are thousands every month. 🙁

    1. My husband got his PhD in 1982. As broke students, we followed the admonition characterized in a picture of a baby bottle on top of books that was on the cover of the Ensign when we were undergrads in the 70s. In other words, we paid tithe and had lots of kids because we believed the Lord required it…We have been blessed exceedingly in that we paid more tithing last year than most people make in a year. However, when we discovered in Feb of 2015 that the church has been lying to us all this time and that they used at least $1.5 billion in the development of City Creek we decided we have a lot better judgement that they do…Hence, we will never give them another dime until they REPENT for so many things: Smith’s propensity toward pedophilia, his incessant lying, the church’s cover ups, etc. We were blessed because we believed our tithing was going to the Lord. Now that we know otherwise there is no way we could pay the money to the Church because we realize they don’t represent the Lord. They represent men and men’s ideas which always fail.

        1. The Mormon Church is rationalizing and muddying the waters by claiming they didn’t use tithing monies to build City Creek Mall. Whether it’s tithing or not, the fact is that “sacred funds” spent by this church on a retail establishment so the wealthy have another playground is not in line with its overall mission.

          1. Any money the church spends is either tithing money or money received from businesses made possible by investments of tithing money. The main problem for me is that they hide their finances from members who contribute the money. Why do they do this if they don’t have something to hide?

          2. That soundbite is to hoodwink the faithful. So the part that is not from tithes belongs to the capitalist side of Christ ? sounds so much like the early church doesn’t it? And they claim it is a restoration.

  58. Kristy, your story and perspective really resonated with me. I found myself nodding along constantly and relating to events in your personal life, too. Thank you for sharing. All my love.

  59. Kristy,

    Unfortunately the Church and your family members prove they really do not know or follow Christ when they treat you as they have.

    True followers of Christ and true prophets would support women’s total equality in all things (as Christ did) and they would welcome you in and eagerly want to discuss all things with you even more if you believe differently then them.

    Christ taught complete equality between the sexes and all people, especially in his Golden Rule, which the LDS Church has never followed, not only with it’s teachings on holding the Priesthood, but with things like polygamy, submission of women to husbands, slavery, tithing, etc.

    But then again, the LDS Church was never really Christ’s church, but just another man-made church started by Joseph Smith.

    But even Joseph Smith (who the Church doesn’t follow either) understood and taught that no one should put Church membership ‘before’ their family. Family relationships always mean more than church membership. For the Church (and the Gospel) is supposed to just be an aid in maintaining loving family relationships, never to destroy them, even if not everyone believes the same.

    It is always pride that causes people to fear, shun and cast out those who believe differently.

    Those who shun others obviously are not strong & confident in their own beliefs and thus they know they could be persuaded to believe differently or find out they are wrong and they would rather cling to falsehoods and weak faith then learn truth and follow Christ.

    1. “But even Joseph Smith (who the Church doesn’t follow either) understood and taught that no one should put Church membership ‘before’ their family.” … except in the case of married women with husbands on missions whom he convinced to marry him–hurting their original families quite a bit.

  60. Pingback: Stewart Udall Sequence IV: Who’s on the Lord’s Side, Who? | Thoughts on Things and Stuff

  61. Can you consider changing the title to “The High Cost of being a member of the Mormon Church” The “high price” is really the “big prize” one can claim when they leave the Mormon Church. How about an immediate 10% raise in income. eliminating the lost of life serving an organization that dis empowers people, the fake friendships and the “organised charitable service”. the subtle bullying and arrogance of a leadership that “will not apologize” because such a word does not exist in scripture, so says an elite one time judge.

  62. Kristy
    Thank you for your courage to simply tell your story. It is interesting how many people have used this place of vulnerability to attack you. What kind of hearts and minds are these? I do not see the value on any level. I understood MS to be a “safe” place for people to give voice to their experiences. You already have deep pains to heal and that peace will most certainly come through your relationship with Christ. It has nothing to do with Mormonism. That will never be the source. Having read through all the comments I find it interesting that no one seems to acknowledge the gross violation to the very soul of women as they grow up, marry and raise a family in a system of supression. You are feeling it, trying to make sense of it and daring to speak openly about it. Thank you. What a valient spirit you have, You join a very long line of women from the inception of thle Mormon Religion. Is such a sytem truly of God?

  63. There is no scriptural precedent for women holding the Priesthood. We do not read of women performing baptisms, ordinations, administration of the Sacrament, etc., or of Law of Moses ordinances in ancient scripture. However, I saw no reason to excommunicate Kate Kelly, and I see no reason to excommunicate Kristy Money. It would serve no purpose except to alienate Kristy. I believe that, in time, Kristy will come to realize that ordaining women is neither scriptural nor doctrinal of her own accord. Her bishop and family need to consider the counsel given by Gamaliel in Acts 5:38-39, and leave her alone. Her bishop, and particularly, her parents need to discontinue using unrighteous dominion on her. They need to follow the teachings in Doctrine and Covenants 121: 35-37. I would even be willing to send her parents an email and/or a snail-mail letter explaining my total outrage at the manner in which they are treating her. Hopefully, someone can provide me with either or both addresses. I would never treat a friend or a family member in such a manner simply over a doctrinal disagreement.

      1. I was expressing my scripturally based opinion and siding with Kristy regarding the treatment by her parents. There was no sanctimoniousness intended. If you disagree with my statement, then please do so in a logical and fact-based manner. There is little need to resort to ad-hominem attacks. I genuinely respect Kristy for her standing for what she believes. I would hope that you would give me a similar degree of respect.

        1. Perhaps your declaration that there is no scriptural basis for Kristy’s view on female ordination and expressing your assurance that she will come to see it your way in due time is simply arrogance rather than sanctimony but your instruction to her parents and bishop on what they “need” to do clearly qualifies as sanctimonious.

          1. I consider my opinion that Kristy’s parents need to be petitioned to treat her in a more Christian manner to be a call for human justice and decency. Such a call is no more santimonious than the petitions for redress of grievances by the Founding Fathers or those who speak out against governmental tyranny or slavery.
            I agree that I might have seemed arrogant in stating that Kristy may agree with my point of view. It is also a possibilty that, consistent with Acts 5:38-39, women may hold the Priesthood in the future. I would certainly not be opposed.
            However, the overall intent of my original posting was to express outrage at the manner in which Kristy was being treated despite my disagreement with some of her views

    1. I share your outrage Tom. I can’t imagine parents who profess to be Christians doing this type of thing to their child and grandchildren. It goes against everything Christ taught. No doubt they would have picked up stones and thrown them at the woman who was caught in adultery. Frankly, I don’t find any precedent for this type cruelty in the New Testament or the Book of Mormon!

    2. Tom.

      Not doctrinal according to who? The scriptures written by LDS leaders who didn’t follow Christ and believe in the Golden Rule and women’s equality?, not to mention that those same men believed it was ok to abuse women by polygamy? You think we should really follow their precedent?

      Or do you mean according to most all religious leaders throughout history, who started all the different religions we have today, who’s leaders almost across the board didn’t believe in women’s equality or live Christ’s teachings either. Why would we think anything of their precedents?

      Or maybe you mean according to the writers of the New or Old Testament? Which authors were almost surely men who probably didn’t believe in Christ or at least didn’t keep all of his commandments, and who didn’t believe in the Golden Rule or women’s equality either. The thought makes reason stare why we would follow follow the precedent of those ancient writers and leaders, who clearly were in the dark ages as to Christ’s teachings, even Paul himself, who didn’t respect women and treat them equally as he should have.

      God & Christ’s teachings should be the only ones we go by, and they taught the Golden Rule and love, and thus that women should be given every gift and power and position that men allow for themselves. For we know men would not put up with an ‘all female Priesthood or leadership’ the other way around. So we can easily see how the Golden Rule proves a ‘female Priesthood ban’ is totally wrong and contrary to Christ’s teachings.

      And in many writings it appears Mary and maybe other women were also disciples or apostles of Christ’s, holding power & position, etc.

      God treats men & women equally and gives women just as much spiritual power, gifts, revelation & position as any man, if not more to women for God gives women the power to give life, the greatest power any human can hold. And there were many prophetesses mentioned throughout the Bible. But we probably don’t hear about most of them because the Bible was written by men who usually didn’t believe in women’s equality and thus probably didn’t respect and believe in or accept the female prophets of their day and thus didn’t write about them.

      No matter what men & their false churches & scriptures have done or said, Christ trumps them all and only his words should be what we go by. Anything said by a prophet, priest or King that is contrary to Christ is thus proven to be false and wrong.

      The LDS Church will probably never repent and follow Christ and acknowledge women’s equal Priesthood power & position that God has already given to women.

      But women are finally waking up to their divine rights & equality in all things and the only way the Church has any chance of repenting is if it starts respecting and acknowledging women’s equal power & position in all levels of leadership and decision making, so women can help the Church turn and follow Christ for once and not men.

      1. I fully realize that men have dominated women throughout history. However, I would still be interested in being informed as to the specific scriptural precedents for women performing Priesthood ordinances such as Sacrament and baptism. I am not opposed to women holding the Priesthood, but I simply maintain that there is no precdent and that the eligibility to hold the Priesthood comes by revelation, not by activism. However, I also believe that activists should still be treated in a Christ-like manner, and not be ostracised by family.

      2. The early apostles were pissed that the Savior and angels presented themselves to women after his death before any of them. You will know the true church when the congregation walks into the meetinghouse the leadership on the stand, rise as they walk in.

        1. I would be interested in your reasoning behind stating that the apostles were displeased that Christ and the angels presented themselves to women before he presented himself to them. As far as I could read and interpret, both the women and the apostles were rejoicing at His resurrection.

  64. Love you Kristy, you are wonderful!! Your family makes my family’s disappointment seem very manageable. I’m so sorry for how they have treated you. We were born into a pretty messed up religion that makes people feel justified for acting that way. You aren’t ruining the name of Joseph Smith, he did that all by himself! Your op-ed pieces were amazing and
    your courage, bravery and compassion are inspiring! As far as church discipline goes, I hope you are able to avoid it but if not, I’m glad I asked to be tried in front of the Stake instead of just my bishopric, you are a strong woman and I would recommend it!

  65. I took the time to listen to all three podcasts. While my heart goes out to Kristy for the way she has been treated by her family, I don’t agree with her methods. Hope she doesn’t get EX by the church, but more importantly I hope she can reconciliate with her family.

    It is important to note what God is telling others and not just yourself. I don’t doubt that she feels empowered to bring about change, but the methods should be different.

    1. You suggest Kristy’s methods should be different. Not sure what methods should be used given that there is no recourse besides talking to local leaders and we know local leaders have no sway with general authorities who carefully and thoroughly insulate themselves from member input. Until “infallible” general authorities humble themselves and allow input from those they “serve” I don’t see any other way of getting their attention. I’d love to hear your suggestions.

  66. To Kristy: sending a hug of support your way. I am so sorry to hear about your family’s negative reaction to your activism and their so-called intervention and resulting octrisization. If you were my daughter, I would have strong feelings that my child had surpassed my highest hopes. I know it’s a hard road relative to your family, but you just have to keep on following the path you are directed to follow. All the best to you and your family.

  67. I am going through interesting times with my family too… but to hear about these examples of complete abandonment goes against the love of Christ that TBM’s profess to follow. It is just simply confusing that they are entirely hypocritical. I heard something great on here the other day. Christ only hated on the hypocrites 😉 When I was an active member several years ago, I too cast out family members due to their life style choices. I wouldn’t even allow some into my home, which now I can’t even recall the reason why, other than to protect my fragile children’s minds from the evils of heathen choices. Honestly now, I feel ashamed of my self righteous attitude and complete disrespect of others. To have elevated myself over someone else because of a belief, that in the end was just fantasy… it actually sickens me now that I could be so elitist.

    Honestly I think that there is still hope for these deranged minds, things can happen no matter their resistance to change, that could turn their life around and make them realise that they too are simply beggars. Thankfully I live in London so I don’t see any of the church in my surroundings. I believe that there is so much more to life outside the bubble! I just pity those poor souls that continue to live in fear and guilt. Things have a way of working themselves out in the end 🙂

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