John Dehlin

Introduction and Context for This Episode

[00:00:00] Hello, everyone, I'm Dr. John Dehlin. It is January 7th, 2021, and I am sharing with you today kind of a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. For those who don't know me, I am the host of a podcast called Mormon Stories where we try to explore, challenge Mormonism, orthodox Mormonism. It's for all types of Mormons, but particularly for open minded Mormons, questioning Mormons, progressive Mormons and post Mormons. Anyway, it is the day after the insurrection here in the United States where Donald Trump called a kind of a big protest, you know, right down the street from our nation's capital, scheduled during the time that Congress was certifying the Electoral College, of course, which was going to lead to a certification of Joseph Biden and Kamala Harris being chosen as the next president, Vice President, United States.

[00:00:53] And, and during that, during that protest, during that speech that Donald Trump gave, he denounced Vice President Pence. He denounced, you know, Republican leadership that supported the vote. And he incited and encouraged his followers and supporters at this presentation to march to the nation's capital, where then they invaded the nation's capital, broke into it, caused all sorts of vandalism and destruction while Congress was in session. At least four people died as a result of those actions. And it's been condemned by Republicans and Democrats alike, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Republican Mormon, Senator Mitt Romney, and many, many others. Now today, several members of Donald Trump's cabinet are resigning.

[00:01:39] He's being called for impeachment, et cetera. And as somebody who loves our country, who loves America, as someone who is raised Mormon, and as somebody who was a political science major and who personally worked on Capitol Hill, So I have walked through those hallowed halls of the Congress building. I've personally done an internship for a congressman. And I've always considered myself someone who loves this country and who wants to see it be and do healthy things. I was super shook and saddened by what I experienced yesterday. And I decided that what I wanted to do was try and at least do my part to speak up and kind of try and explore a little bit how this happened to our country and give my best thoughts on how we could prevent this sort of stuff from happening again.

[00:02:36] And it was kind of impossible for me not to look at this through a Mormon lens, both because I'm Mormon, raised Mormon, think about Mormonism all the time. That's kind of what I do. That's, that's my focus. But also it was impossible not to notice that there were active believing Mormons participating in yesterday's insurrection. There was at least one flag being waved that was a direct quote from the Book of Mormon, Mormon scripture that was taken from Book of Mormon scripture around Captain Moroni, who is a central Book of Mormon figure. But also there were participants there with BYU garb and there were people harassing Mitt Romney at the airport flying to this event.

[00:03:14] You know, and there are Mormon politicians like Burgess Owens that support Donald Trump or that historically have supported Trump like Senator Mike Lee and others. So there's no way to take out the Mormonism from what happened yesterday, good and bad. And so what I've done is I've prepared a presentation for today. I'm calling it How Bad Religion and or Orthodox Mormonism has both groomed us for Trumpism and has shown us how to defeat it. So that is, that is what my presentation is going to be about today. I do want to provide a few disclaimers, if that's all right. Here are my disclaimers. I am not a member of what's called the radical left.

[00:03:52] I am not a super liberal Democrat by any stretch of the imagination. I consider myself to be politically moderate. I sympathize with values and policies on both sides of the political spectrum. I think there are reasonable reasons to be conservative, to be Republican and to be liberal and to be a Democrat. And I sympathize with lots of different policies and values across the spectrum. I am literally a registered Republican in the state of Utah. If I could have chosen between Mitt Romney and Joe Biden for president, there's a chance I would have preferred Mitt Romney. I'm not the biggest Joe Biden fan in the world by any stretch of the imagination.

[00:04:32] I do like a lot about Kamala Harris, but she's not perfect either, you know, but in the past, I voted for both Republican and Democrat presidents over the years. So that's all true about me. But I wanted to see Jon Huntsman, a moderate or progressive Republican, become governor in Utah. And that's why I registered as a Republican. So you really can't claim I'm part of the radical left. I consider myself moderate and a registered Republican in Utah. And then I just want to state that my, my focus is on the collective good, the good of American society, the good of the global society of the world.

[00:05:04] That's what I care about most, more than any party, more than any politician, et cetera. But the thing that I also feel very strongly is I'm anti fascism. I studied World War II. I named one of my children after Winston Churchill. I've studied FDR, World War II, JFK. I'm pro civil rights, and I'm anti fascism. And those things are really important to me. And that's the slant from which I'm coming from. So I'm not here to attack people who voted Republican or even voted for Trump per se, but I am vocally denouncing what I'm calling Trumpism, which I am equating with fascism, and I'm going to sort of make that argument.

How Mormonism Groomed Members for Trumpism

[00:05:42] Okay, so with those disclaimers out of the way, what I want to start with is a fact or a set of facts that I think are facts. And if you disagree with me, you can share the evidence. But the facts that I want to share today are things that are disturbing to me as a Mormon, as a post Mormon, as a progressive Mormon, and as a Utahn. And these facts are that Donald Trump has very strong support in Utah. It's my understanding that Utah is In the top 10 states in the country both to vote Republican and to support Trump. If I'm wrong about that, please correct me.

[00:06:11] But at least historically, Trump has had very strong support in Utah. He's pulled very well here. And Mormons, as I understand it, support Trump at higher rates than almost any other major religious group, other than, I think, white conservative evangelical Christians. But again, you have to make them all white to elevate that group, because if you go with evangelical Christians of color, I think they drop below Mormons. So historically, as I understand it, Mormons disproportionately support Trump, and I think that's also true just about conservative Christians. So take the Mormon element out of it. If you look at the most ardent Trump supporters, I think there's a high correlation between conservative Christianity and Trump and Mormonism and Trump.

[00:06:53] So these things are facts, and they're disturbing to me as someone who was raised Christian, someone who was raised Mormon, and as someone who's in Utah. So starting with those facts, what I want to do now is lay out my best explanation, because I'm just super curious. Like, how is it that a church that I was raised. Raised in that I believe, believes in kindness, believes in truth, believes in love, who claims to follow Jesus, how can that same church be so supportive of Trump and. Or what I think is fascism? Again, a church that I was raised in that was really pro Constitution, really pro America, you know, how is this possible?

[00:07:31] And how are so many people who claim to be devout Christians or even orthodox Christians, how are so many Christians disproportionately supporting Trump that's kind of what I'm asking myself. And I am here to make the argument today that I believe that orthodox Mormonism and conservative Christianity in a way grooms us for supporting potentially Trumpism and or what seems to be bordering on fascism. And here's my argument. I'm going to make it from a Mormon perspective. And then if any of you who are from a Christian background want to either agree or disagree with me from your Christian backgrounds, or I would love to hear that, too, because I don't have strong evidence, you know, about the evangelical Christian perspective or the Catholic perspective or other types of perspective.

[00:08:18] I can only sort of share this from a Mormon perspective. So what I'm now going to do is I am going to give my best argument for how Mormonism, I believe, and possibly conservative Christianity, has groomed us for Trumpism. So let me begin by sharing what I see with what I call Trumpism. What do I see? Here's what I see. I see leaders and followers of Trump who place excessive faith in a charismatic leader. If I had to say the best example of that yesterday were many of these rioters who went to the nation's capitol, took down American flags and put up Trump flags. It appears as though these people love Trump potentially even more than they love the Constitution.

[00:09:05] They seem to love Trump more than the three branches of government, the separation of powers. And they are willing to suspend potentially the balance of power, the democratic process, and so much that we as Americans in the Constitution seem to hold sacred in support of a charismatic leader being Trump. And again, if you don't believe me, just Google the protesters yesterday that literally took the American flag down, flipped the American flag upside down, and or put up Trump flags in its place. But that's the biggest concern is an excessive reliance within Trumpism on a charismatic leader. The second element of Trumpism that I see is institutional intolerance of criticism.

[00:09:46] And if you know, my understanding of Trumpism and how Trump works is he despises disloyalty and criticism over anything else. And that is what's made it so. Republicans, conservatives, moderates, have been so terrified to speak out against him. And anyone who has dared to speak out against Trump or his administration has been fired, has been demonized, has been vilified, and has been unseated in office. So my understanding is the way that Trump has such a lock on the political process is by making people terrified to ever criticize him. That's my understanding. Okay. The third element of Trumpism that I see are leaders and followers who value their beliefs more than evidence and who embrace baseless conspiracy theories.

[00:10:28] And for me, there's all sorts of examples of this. There's significant anti science rhetoric within Trump followers. There's anti journalism disposition with Trump followers. They hate the media, they hate all the forms of media that don't agree with them. They hate science. They question, you know, the National Institute of Health, the value of wearing masks, the validity of COVID as a legitimate virus. And they embrace very harmful conspiracy theories, whether it's Obama and birther conspiracies, whether it's Pisagate, whether it's Cuba, QAnon, whether it's conspiracy theories about the election. You know, Trump was saying that there was election fraud before the election was even held. He was telling people that the election was going to be fraudulent if he lost.

[00:11:13] And he was stirring up theories and conspiracy theories before the election had even happened. And then of course, his followers believe those conspiracy theories along with QAnon, along with Pizzagate, along with allegations about antifa and Obama's birth certificate and all these things. And it has left our country with a bunch of people who believe in conspiracy theories more than they believe in science, in facts, in credible journalism and in evidence. That's just my personal opinion and I think that's left us in a very damaging and destructive place. Another element of Trumpism is leaders and followers who use divisive rhetoric. And one of the most disheartening things for me, I watch several hours of Donald Trump stump speeches or campaign speeches and I have literally never beheld a more divisive and mean spirited public figure, politician, leader in my 51 years upon this earth.

[00:12:09] Crude, rude, profane, mean, divisive rhetoric and speech. And that's what I associate with everything that I've heard from Donald Trump. And I've never seen anything like it. And if you have, I'd love to see. I don't care who you talk about. George Bush, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Lyndon B. Johnson, John F. Kennedy, fdr, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford. Go back to Lincoln. Find me a politician that's ever been as crude, as disrespectful, as harsh, as mean, as base as Donald Trump, elected or unelected, worse than David Duke. Like, I literally have never seen anything like it. And that's part of what I call damaging Trumpism. The next bullet.

[00:12:53] Leaders and followers who pick vulnerable minorities and who stoke bigotry as a way to unify their followers. For those of you who have been following Trump, he is critical of our most vulnerable and marginalized populations. I'm talking about people of color, I'm talking about Hispanics, I'm talking about African Americans, I'm talking about gay and lesbian people, I'm talking about transgender people, I'm talking about women, victims of assault and sexual abuse. He's even made fun of people with disabilities, like, pick immigrants. Pick any group, any population that is traditionally hurt or underprivileged or disempowered or disenfranchised or have been systematically abused. Donald Trump has made them a central focus of his rhetoric and targets of his abuse and all of that.

[00:13:44] And I think that's horrific. And I think that he does that because that's a typical ploy of fascists to make an enemy and then to garner support of his followers, to hate something, to target something, and to have unity in something to fight against. The next thing that I see with Donald Trump and Trumpism is leaders and followers who stay silent out of fear of going against the opinions of their tribe and who value their own perceived immediate self interest over the long term interests of the greater community. Look at Mitch McConnell. Look at Lindsey Graham. Look at, you know, most of the Republican members of the House and the Senate.

[00:14:23] Until yesterday, you literally found almost with, with a very few exceptions, and one that we're going to talk about in a second, that has a very important Mormon connection. With very few exceptions, you will find almost no Republicans or conservatives who are willing to publicly challenge or disagree with or oppose Donald Trump. Until yesterday, until Trump incited a riot that invaded our nation's capitol and threatened the lives of congresspeople while they were in session certifying the electoral process against him. And that's a problem. Too many silent followers that are not courageous and they're not willing to speak truth to power out of fear, out of protecting their own political interests, their own social interests, their own monetary interests, their own financial or business interests, just being cowardly and quiet.

[00:15:14] How many people have I talked to, even in my own family, even my own friends who are like, yeah, we all hate Trump, but I'm not going to say anything publicly about it. That's pretty much almost every Trump supporter and Republican I've ever spoken with. The final element of Trumpism that I condemn, that I see are leaders and followers who encourage and, or engage in violence. And if you haven't believed it before, you only have to see what happened yesterday.

[00:15:40] You had all of these people who were at Trump's rally with Trump flags, with Confederate flags, listening to Trump, cheering Trump on, and then Trump literally leads them, even though he and his family, like, ran away at the last minute and bunkered up in the White House. He leads them to the Capitol building where then they incite and engage in violence on the nation's capital. And if you are going to believe the garbage that those people were antifa, that's stupid conspiracy theory garbage. Because these people were at Trump's rally. He led them to the nation's capital, then they invaded the nation's capital. Then Trump said in his public statement, I love them and your special people, I love you.

[00:16:28] And he sort of endorsed and validated all those people there that were doing the violence. So stop stating that the violent people yesterday were antifa. That's the stupid, horrific garbage conspiracy theory noise that I'm condemning today. So having said all that, these are the elements of Trumpism.

[00:16:50] And so now I want to take this to what in the world does any of this have to do with Mormonism? And argue that we as Mormons and possibly as conservative Christians have been especially groomed to be vulnerable to this type of fascism and what I'll call Trumpism. And I'm now going to draw these same parallels. You could ask, how in the world would anyone become susceptible to all these things? Well, I'll tell you, if you are born and raised into a conservative religious tradition that parallels in many ways the devices and the techniques and the structures of sort of Trumpist fascism, you're going to be more vulnerable to it.

[00:17:34] And now I would just like to humbly make the case for why a bad form. And I'm not saying all forms of Mormonism. I'm not saying all forms of conservative Christianity. I'm going to say a certain orthodox or ultra conservative or fundamentalist view of Mormonism and or Christianity can lead to make a group of people susceptible to this sort of fascism and Trumpism. So here's the argument again. When I think about Mormonism, do I think Mormonism encourages leaders and followers who place excessive faith in charismatic leaders? Absolutely. In Mormonism, we worship almost Joseph Smith. We worship our prophets, seers and revelators. When Russell M. Nelson or any of the members of the Quorum of the twelve or the First Presidency come in the room, everyone needs to stand.

[00:18:24] We sing, follow the prophet, we sing hymns that encourage us to worship and obey and follow these leaders. And we are taught as an institution that it is actually evil to criticize our leaders as Mormons, we take covenants, we actually make temple covenants to never quote, speak ill of the Lord's anointed. We have Dallin H. Oaks publicly Saying that it's wrong to criticize our church leaders, even if the criticisms are accurate. And of course, the Mormon church has a 200ish year legacy of punishing, silencing and even excommunicating its critics. And I happen to be one of the critics that the Mormon Church has excommunicated, along with many dear friends.

[00:19:11] And so you can see that parallel of undying uncritical devotion of leaders and a total institutional intolerance of criticism as two pillars of orthodox Mormonism and of Trumpism. A third parallel that I see between orthodox Mormonism and Trumpism is again leaders and followers who value their beliefs more than evidence and who embrace baseless conspiracy theories over facts and truth. And Mormonism is replete with this. I was taught from a young age to question science, to be suspicious of science, that faith is superior to evidence. In Mormonism we're groomed to have suspicion for the learned, that faith is better than evidence and facts and knowledge. I was taught that evolution is wrong.

[00:19:55] I was taught that the earth is 6,000 years old. I was taught that those who teach evolution are teaching heresy. And as far as you know, conspiracy theories, if you think about it, the fact that Joseph Smith started the one true church, that the Book of Mormon itself is a historical document, that it's an ancient document, that the Book of Mormon, that the Book of Abraham is an ancient document, all of these things are conspiracy theories that have no real basis in truth and all of the scientific evidence points to the opposite. But because these conspiracy theories are important parts of our beliefs, then we do somersaults, flipping over backwards to try and bolster the historicity of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham or the truthfulness or the absolute truthfulness of the Mormon Church when science and evidence all run counter.

[00:20:43] Mormonism also has an anti journalism slanted where they either avoid speaking openly to journalists or they try and destroy or harm journalistic institutions like the Salt Lake Tribune or they try and buy it up and water it down. But there is absolutely anti journalistic or sentiments and or suspicion within Mormonism. And of course the Church is against its scholars, it's against its critics and it engages in that by punishing them, punishing us. And just like Trump has spokespeople who make excuses and gaslight its people, the Mormon Church has deceptive apologetics. Whether it's Farms, Hugh Nibley, whether it's the Maxwell Institute, whether it's fair Mormon, whether it's Kwaku, whether it's Cardinalis, even in a surrogate way through these nonprofits, through the More good Foundation, Book of Mormon central the Interpreter.

[00:21:34] They use spokespeople and nonprofits and apologetic groups to brainwash the public, to brainwash its members in ways that are anti journalistic, anti scientific and anti critics. So this is all stuff that Mormons unfortunately know way too well. Again, the Mormon Church is filled with people who embrace baseless conspiracy theories. I've already made this point. But whether it's Joseph Smith's divine calling as God's one true prophet, there are way too many problems with Joseph Smith. Sleeping with underage girls, sleeping with 14, 15, 16 year olds, marrying other men's wives, defrauding people out of money, claiming to translate documents that he hasn't translated. The core Joseph Smith narrative is in and of itself a baseless, harmful conspiracy theory.

[00:22:23] Now, that doesn't mean there isn't some good that's come from it or even if you want to believe there's some divinity in it. But there is way too many problems with Joseph Smith and its history to not also see it on its face value as a baseless, harmful conspiracy theory. That's true for the Book of Mormon, that's true for the Book of Abraham, that's true for Joseph Smith's polygamy, and that's true for the LDS Church's claim of being the one true church. The next parallel between Trumpism and Mormonism is people who use divisive rhetoric. If you look at speeches given in Mormon General Conferences for the past several hundred years, you've got leaders that have an us them mentality, that have a critics are out to get us, that we're the chosen people.

[00:23:05] They condemn secularism, they condemn scientists, they condemn science, they condemn journalists, they attack scholars, they attack critics, they attack apostates, they tell their members that you can't raise healthy children if you're outside of the church, that you have to fear critics and people who leave the church and they tell you, like any abusive organization, where will you possibly go if you leave the church? You can't be healthy and happy without us. That's all abusive, divisive rhetoric that is more commonly used by literal abusers on their victims. And you all know, you've all heard people like Dallin H. Oaks give spew anti LGBTQ rhetoric. People like Mark Peterson and Ezra Top Benson and many, many others spew racist rhetoric.

[00:23:49] Brigham Young, etc. There is so much divisive rhetoric in the history of Mormonism, including people that Mormon Church leaders that oppose the civil rights movement and who fought it and who openly encouraged and taught racist teachings. And that takes us to the sixth point, which is a long, long history of, of picking on vulnerable minorities and stoking bigotry. We all know that the Mormon Church has a long, horrible history of racism, of sexism and of homophobia, of making gay and lesbian people feel like they're less than, feel like they're dirty and loathsome, making people of color feel like their skin is dark and evil because of curses from God.

[00:24:35] Making, making, you know, trying to encourage celibacy or mixed orientation marriages or even reparative therapy for gay and lesbian people. And of course, anti transgender rhetoric that makes transgender people and gender non binary people and others feel like there's no place for them. Like God doesn't love and accept them as they are and like there's something wrong with who they are. And that's why there's such a depression and anxiety and divorce and even suicide within Mormonism. At least in part because of all this divisive rhetoric that's so often and way too often targeted at our most vulnerable and discriminated minority populations. And to this day, the Church has not fixed and apologized for its racism, its sexism, its anti LGBTQ rhetoric.

[00:25:26] It has still not done it. And the Church still gives these divisive talks like you have to crawl under, around or over the Book of Mormon like Jeffrey Holland or where will you go Stay in the boat. You know, all of this rhetoric is divisive and it's harmful and it's damaging and it needs to stop. The seventh parallel between Mormon, orthodox Mormonism and Trumpism is leaders and followers who stay silent out of fear of going against the opinions of their tribe and who value their own perceived immediate self interest over the long term interests of the greater community. I can't tell you how many progressive, liberal or even orthodox Mormons that know that the Prophet's wrong on certain issues.

[00:26:10] They know that the Church has a racist past. They know that the church shouldn't be excommunicating people and silencing people. And yet they stay silent. I can't tell you how many progressive and non believing Mormons tell me about these horrific stories that they've experienced this abuse, institutional abuse, direct horrific stories with top church leadership. And then when I say, well, will you come on in Mormon stories and talk about it? They're like, no, I can't do that. I have a job or my family will be sad, or my parents will be disappointed, or I may lose some clientele, or it's just going to be uncomfortable for me.

[00:26:48] And by being silent you are complicit. And Mormonism is rife with people who are complicit not just in speaking openly about truth claims or in problems with the church, but who do not speak up for on race issues, who do not speak up on LGBTQ issues, trans issues, who do not speak up for women and do not speak up against the abuses of the Mormon Church. Way too much silence within Mormonism. The final parallel I find is again with leaders and followers who encourage and or engage in violence or who stay silent about violence. And Desnat, which is a desert nation, which is a new and emerging movement within Mormonism, is now thriving on Twitter.

[00:27:35] And even the Mormon Church has funded organizations like the Morgood foundation and Fair Mormon to then fund people like Kwaku, L and Cardinalis who openly and explicitly encourage and support Desnat and or violence against people like me and Jeremy Runnels and many, many other people. Basically anyone who doubts or questions the church and the Mormon Church has done nothing to actively root out Desnat and or people like Kwaku and Cardinalis and Fairmormon and others that literally retweet videos of people like me or Jeremy Runnels having our heads bashed in by active, faithful, believing Mormons. The Church has not come out against does not the church has not come out against Fair Mormon in their violent videos and so many other instances.

[00:28:28] And so and of course that's not to mention the Mormon Church's history with the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the Council of 50 Day Nights and all that other stuff. So that's my main argument, that Mormonism and or orthodox Christianity has groomed us for fascism and for Trumpism. What I would like to do now is focus as close in the most constructive way that I can. I'm going to make the argument that there are also many good things within Mormonism and that Mormonism has actually taught us many good things that can actually help inoculate us and or show us the way out of the sort of disposition or proclivity towards Trumpism and or fascism.

[00:29:18] And the best shining example of this that I can find in or out of Mormonism in the United States, ironically is a Republican Mormon Senator named Mitt Romney. And I did not vote for Romney. I voted for Obama.

[00:29:36] And I wish that the Romney who was the governor of Massachusetts would have been the same Romney that ran for President or I would have voted for that Romney. But I don't know how Republican or Democrat these days, if you're open minded if you're objective, you, even if you disagree with his policies, I don't know how you can't be inspired by the acts of Mitt Romney in the United States in the modern era. He is a man for all seasons. Look up Sir Thomas More. Watch the movie A Man for All Seasons. Because what we've seen is there is one Republican, one Republican in the Senate and in Congress who is willing to openly speak out against Donald Trump, not just yesterday, but for months and months and months and even years leading up to this horrific result that happened yesterday.

[00:30:32] And that's Mormon Senator Mitt Romney. He has shown us courage. He has shown us conviction. He has shown us honesty. He cares about the truth. He doesn't glean, he doesn't cling to conspiracy theories. He is brave. He has used responsible rhetoric, he has used non polarizing rhetoric and he has been warning us and speaking out publicly. He hasn't relied on silence, he hasn't sat quietly in his comfort and he's actually faced derision and abuse by members of his own party, by members of his own constituency for his courage. And I would like to make the argue that may not make the argument that may not be super popular with some of my listeners or some of you who are out there listening that there are strains of Mormonism that can encourage the type of truth loving courage and conviction and integrity that Mitt Romney is shown.

[00:31:38] And for me it all comes back to primary songs or hymns. Because if I have any resonance residue or remnant beliefs in parts of Mormonism, they can be found in many of the primary songs or hymns that I learned as a Mormon. And I'm just going to share with you a few of the truths that I learned in Mormonism that actually in my case led me out of orthodox Mormonism, that got me kicked out of the church and that I see in someone like Mitt Romney and that I see orthodox Mormons and believing Mormons and Trump Mormons can consider inspiring them to stop supporting a fascist dictator in America.

[00:32:22] So the first one is I learned as a Mormon that truth matters. One of my favorite hymns as a Mormon was oh say what is truth? Tis the fairest gem that the riches of world can produce, and priceless the value of truth will be when listen for it. The proud monarch's costliest diadem is counted but dross and refuse. There's an anti monarchist line in the first hymn of O say what is truth. And I learned to value truth as a Mormon. And I know that somewhere buried in Mormonism is The love for truth. So that's one point of Mormonism that we can all learn for.

[00:33:08] The second is be courageous. You all know the hymn do what is right, Let the consequence follow. Battle for freedom in spirit and might and with press heart and with stout hearts lead you forth till tomorrow God will protect you then do what is right. Mitt Romney is even quoted that him, I believe to inspire what he's doing. And I think as Mormons, I hope you and as progressive Mormons and as post Mormons, you can be inspired to be courageous and to do what is right, regardless of whether your parents don't love you or your community might be happy or you might lose some clients or your reputation you worry might be impacted.

[00:33:59] Go for truth, go for courage over comfort and convenience. I learned that as a Mormon and it's not a uniquely Mormon thing, by the way, but it is something that you can find in Mormonism. The third point is be brave.

[00:34:16] Dare to do right, dare to be true. You have a work that no other can do. Do it so bravely, so kindly, so well. Angels will hasten the story to tell. Dare, dare, dare to do right. Dare, dare, dare to be true. Dare to be true, Dare to be true. That's a Mormon song. That's a Mormon hymn that can inspire us all during a time where too many people are afraid and not courageous enough to do what is right. The next song from Mormonism that we all can learn from is the principle is to be kind. And you all know the song I want to be kind to everyone for that is right, you see.

Moving Forward with Kindness and Critical Thinking

[00:35:14] So I say to myself, remember this kindness begins with me. We don't need to use hateful rhetoric. We don't need to use profanity. We don't need to use harsh words condemning and criticizing everyone around us. And we especially need to be most kind to the vulnerable and to the people that need our love and support most and who need to be lifted.

[00:35:45] And again, it's a primary song by my dear friend Carolyn Pearson that again shows up and teaches us how to act with vulnerable populations. If you don't walk like most people do, some people walk away from you But I won't, I won't if you don't talk as most people do, some people smile and laugh at you But I won't, I won't, I'll walk with you, I'll talk with you that's how I'll show my love for you.

[00:36:27] Jesus walked away from none. He gave his love to everyone so I will, I will. Jesus Blessed all he could see Then turned and said come follow me and I will, I will, I will, I will I'll walk with you, I'll talk with you that's how I'll show my love for you.

[00:36:58] People of color, immigrants, trans people, gay and lesbian people, gender, non binary people, women, people with, with, with disabilities. They deserve our love and our kindness. They don't deserve to be demonized at worst and at best told that there's no place for them in the kingdom. With no doctrine or no theology that accommodates them. We can do better. And it can be Mormonism who can inspire us to do better. And a shout out again to Carolyn Pearson for that song. The final song that I want to share with you today is in our lovely deseret. In our lovely deseret where the saints of God has met.

[00:37:41] There's probably a better song out there, but the point is, we as Mormons, the beehive of Mormonism represents community. And we care about the community more than we care about any individual leader, any individual charismatic leader or prophet. We care about the Mormon people. And I learned to care about the Mormon people. I learned to care about the American people and the world, the people of the world as a Mormon. And we need to transcend our ideologies, our reverence and obedience to leaders.

[00:38:19] We need to transcend all of that and start caring about our world, our world population, America as a whole, and the Mormon people as a whole instead of political ideology, and especially instead of charismatic, fascist like religious leaders. To close, I'm going to share with you a summary of what we need. We need people who do not tolerate hero worship or overconfidence in charismatic leadership. We need people who allow and even welcome a culture of constructive criticism. We need people, Mormon and American, who are willing to hold their leaders directly accountable with criticism and otherwise valuing the common good, over questioning devotion to unquestioning devotion to their leaders and their tribe.

[00:39:13] We need people who actively seek credible evidence, Mormons and Americans and people in the world who are willing to reconsider and even set aside their superstitious beliefs in the face of credible evidence, including people who reject baseless conspiracy theories.

[00:39:34] We need people who seek to use constructive bridge building language and not divisive hateful rhetoric. We need people who will reject all bigoted speech and who seek to protect and empower and lift up minorities and vulnerable populations. We need people who are willing to speak up, they don't stay quiet and they're willing to speak up even when it goes against their personal comfort, their personal privilege, even when it might impact them financially, it might impact their relationship with friends and family or the community. We need people who will speak up, because silence is complicity, silence is the killer, and silence is what enables fascism and tyranny and religious fundamentalism.

[00:40:25] And finally, we need people who reject any type of violence, verbal or physical, and who are willing to communicate candidly but with kindness. And most of all, people who care about the community over their own ideologies, their own parties, their own religious beliefs. We need people that care about mankind, humankind, the world, not just their tribes. So thank you so much for listening today. If any of you made it through to the end of this, I owe you an ice cream cone. I owe you a steak dinner. I'll throw a party when Covid is over and invite all of you who listen to this to get together and we can have a huge celebration and anti fascism and anti Trumpism, an anti fundamentalist religious celebration.

[00:41:15] And I just want to say thank you for listening. Please share your comments and questions. And if you enjoyed this presentation, if you valued it, please consider sharing it, sharing it on Facebook, sharing it on Instagram, sharing it on Twitter, sharing it with friends and family. And if you don't, I still ask you to consider the things that we've talked about today because I believe it will make Mormonism a better place. It will make ex Mormonism and liberal, progressive Mormon. I am going to take these principles and internalize them myself. I'm going to try and be more loving, less divisive, more kind, more based on evidence, less based on conspiracy theories.

[00:41:52] I call on ex Mormons and progressive Mormons and you know, everyone else, Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and liberals. I don't care who you are. I don't care who you vote for. These principles apply to everyone, religious and not Republican, conservative, neutral people outside the US I call on everyone to consider these principles and I'm going to do my best to follow these as well. And whenever I step out of line, I rely on you, my listeners, friends, family, to call me on it. And I promise to double down my efforts to engage in, to follow my own wisdom and my own recommendations. So anyway, love you guys.

[00:42:33] Thanks so much. Please spread the word. And thanks for everyone who supports what I do. And I hope you guys will stay in touch and I'd love to hear from you guys. If you valued this presentation or if you have criticisms of this presentation, I want to hear that too. Because again, I'm gonna eat my own dog food. Thanks everybody. Take care and God and secularism bless America. God and secularism bless the world. God and secularism bless Mormonism and post Mormonism and and let's all choose healing and growth and thriving in the weeks, months, years ahead. Let's love each other and most importantly, be kind. Thanks, everybody. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.