Welcome and Introduction to Carah Burrell

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is February 26, 2021 and you are in for a treat today. As some of you may know. If you're long standing Mormon Stories podcast listeners, you'll know that I've been number one impressed with TikTok and the presence of ex Mormon TikTokers and progressive Mormon TikTokers. Just with the phenomenon of TikTok and with the amazing talent that is emerging on the TikTok platform, which is, if for no other reason than that when a TikTok video goes viral, it doesn't just reach thousands or even tens of thousands. You know, like on YouTube, TikTok videos go viral to the tune of tens or hundreds or even million hundreds of thousands or millions of views. And so with that, with the creativity, with the vibrant community, I've been trying to feature or spotlight various TikTok artists. We've had ex Mormon Mindy on, we've had Mitch, who does the impressions of people like Gordon Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson. And so in the spirit of celebrating the TikTok platform and of spotlighting important TikTok voices, I bring you today Carah Burrell, who is known on TikTok as Nuanceho.

Carah Burrell [00:01:18] That's me, Carah. Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Welcome.

Carah Burrell [00:01:20] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] This is take two.

Carah Burrell [00:01:22] Yeah, we're gonna do it so good this time. It's gonna be the best Mormon stories of all time.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] What happened the first time? Like, we tried this a couple days ago, it just. It crashed and burned. I think it's my fault.

Carah Burrell [00:01:31] No, I think we can't splice in videos or else we're like, where should we end this conversation, this story? So we're just going to like. It's going to be twice, four times as good now.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] Yeah. So originally I had care on early in the week and I was going to try and integrate some of her TikTok videos into this broadcast, but it became so technical and there were so many glitches that we had to can it. I had to run to a thing birthday party actually, and Happy birthday, Clint. And then we decided to come back, so. I'm so glad to have you here, Carah. And. Yeah, how should we begin? I mean, I think the spirit of today's episode is just kind of going to be a fun, casual, freewheeling discussion. I just have to warn you, Carah sometimes has a potty mouth. Is that true?

Carah Burrell [00:02:15] Yeah. I just want to be sensitive to somebody who's watching this in their minivan with their Kids in the back that I might say the words that make my mom hate me so.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] So with that, you should all be warned that this is not a typical Mormon stories episode. There, there might be swear words. And so if you don't like swear words or if you don't want people listening, either don't listen and. Or listen when there aren't people around who you don't want to hear naughty, naughty words. But Carah is super cool. She's super cool because her videos on TikTok, in my view, are among the most funny, insightful, sharp elbowed, cutting edge videos on TikTok in the ex Mormon TikTok. But also Carah's got a super interesting story. Not just because she was raised Mormon in kind of a semi crazy family. Sorry, Carah's family. Not just because she went to LA with her husband and got into the comedy scene there. And when I say the comedy scene, I mean like Tig, NATO, Nataro. Nataro. And she's met a lot of the famous comedians that you and I might know if you're into comedy. Even Louis ck, right?

Carah Burrell [00:03:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] Sarah Silverman and people like that, right?

Carah Burrell [00:03:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] So she and her husband have experience in the comedy industry. She is a comedian, She's a comedy writer. So is her husband, though he's not here. But also, while she was in LA with her husband, she was tapped to do princess public relations for the Mormon Church. And she used to hate people like me. She used to fear ex Mormons and even badmouth ex Mormons. And now she's one of the leading ex Mormon voices, especially on TikTok. And so that's a lot of cool fodder for discussion. How's that intro? Did I forget anything you want to add?

Carah Burrell [00:04:06] Anything? That was perfect. Especially the sharp elbowed part. I'm actually really well known for my sharp elbows and anyone who knows me will really, I feel like we already good friends that you brought that up. So that was a perfect introduction. So. And especially if people don't have TikTok yet, I hope you made it a convincing sell that they really need to get it because of the reach. Because especially when you were talking about PR before, like, imagine what the PR and what the church is going through with the amount of reach that ex Mormons have on TikTok right now. Like videos in the millions probably every day on a different ex Mormon TikTok channel. You know, like that type of reach is not even typical of like a standard YouTube video. So more and more people are realizing the church is a fraud of all different backgrounds, all leaving for all different reasons. And like, I really feel like the new best meeting place for them to talk about it is on TikTok.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] Yeah. Okay, so let's start. Instead of starting with your story.

Building an Ex-Mormon TikTok Presence

Carah Burrell [00:05:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Let's talk about TikTok a little bit. No, no, let's talk about TikTok a little Bit. Let's talk about why TikTok is interesting, why it's different.

Carah Burrell [00:05:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] In addition to its reach. And then describe your channel a little bit and maybe we'll splice in a video or two in post production. But describe why TikTok is cool, why ex Mormon TikTok is cool, and then what. What's different or interesting about your channel and then we'll dig into your story.

Carah Burrell [00:05:30] Yeah, that's a good place to start. So TikTok is. People say it's one minute videos. It's actually 59 second videos, but one minute videos on their platform, on their app. Um, and you can do all kinds of different. You could just talk into the camera and tell stories if you wanted to. I do a lot more sketch comedy type where I write more scripts and I do a little bit of everything on my channel. Pretty much whatever I feel like doing that day. That doesn't sound unfun.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Give a couple examples of what a video of yours might be like.

Carah Burrell [00:06:01] Um, so my favorite type is honestly, I have a only maybe four videos where I talk directly into the camera really passionately. And it's a series about a video is called Things I wish I could tell my Mormon best friends, but I can't.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Things like what?

Carah Burrell [00:06:17] Things like I wish when you say that you know the church is true, you and because of the Holy Spirit. I wish that you realized that that has been trademarked and shipped into your brain. And the way that you're interpreting these spiritual feelings are placed in there by these men in a council in Salt Lake City, Utah. And it's not as organic of a process. You're a lot more indoctrinated than you realize. But I say it in a way that I wish I could just tell my friends. So those are a handful of videos. Or I just do sketches making fun of Kwaku or, you know, fair Mormon or

John Dehlin [00:06:54] apologists.

Carah Burrell [00:06:55] Apologists. And I'm trying to think, what are your favorite videos? Because now I'm like stalling because I can't.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] You did one with Zelf on the shelf. I did with Sam and Tomato, Samantha and Tanner.

Carah Burrell [00:07:05] Yeah, that was like a proper like sketch that was really fun to write where it's called if Interactions with Mormon Missionaries Were Honest. And me and Shelley from Zelph on the Shelf YouTube channel, which I'm sure anyone watching this already has to be subscribed to them because they are gods. Anyway, so they invited me over to do a collab. So me and Sam play missionaries and we kind of just like wrote a script for what an honest interaction with Mormon missionaries would be. And then Tanner's already got like the mustache and he looks like a freaking sex God. And he like opened the door and he looks like he just like took a smoke of weed and he opens up his door and we just do

John Dehlin [00:07:42] like a cult leader.

Carah Burrell [00:07:43] Yeah. I literally was trying to describe the video to my sister last night. I was like, he looks like, like you join a cult and you finally get to meet like the guru. And that's what he's like, that's what he kind of presents it as. So just somebody home kind of smoking weed, knocking on their door and they're like, oh, shoot, I thought it was the cops. And just what an honest, like, we're from a Rocky Mountain Bible fan fiction sex cult. Like, would you like to hear a message, Reductive, cherry pick message kind of thing. So I was surprised, actually. A lot of Mormons liked it. If you heard the comments on TikTok, like 50% of Mormons were like, I'm Mormon. This is actually really funny. Anyway, I got called inaccurate too, which I had to clear that up. But I was like, oh, no, these are all very true things. And so, yeah, that was a. That was like a proper sketch. I have a lot of videos where I go back and forth with like my old way of thinking and the way I think now.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] And I can really put like a monologue with yourself.

Carah Burrell [00:08:35] Yeah. Or like, I mean, or like a personification of the closed minded. Thinking of a lot of the ways that Mormons interact with ex Mormons online. And all I have to do for an idea is like one second on like lds, Reddit or something to get an idea of the way that they think. Like, I have a video about. What about the smart ones? What about like the really educated Mormons who say, like, they're educated, they must know all of the anti Mormon things. Like why if there's. And I used to do that. Like, I literally used to. I looked up to two people I can still think of that were such pillars of my testimony when they really shouldn't have been, but two really. Well, like, people that I really respected in Mormonism and I'd never Looked at like the anti Mormon literature, whatever you want to call it, just the truth, let's say. And because I was like, they've probably already looked at it and they stay in the church and look how strong they are. And I kind of just. I wanted to break down that pillar, if that's a pillar for anyone else's testimony that somebody else has figured it out. Because they're smarter than you. No, because you have Talmud, who should have been smart enough. But the second that he's presented with evidence that literally do. There's no horses on this continent, he still is like, but my scripture says it is. So I'm going to supersede science and reasoning with what I already believe, because that makes me feel comfortable. So I just. There's so many things that, like, I can't even describe how many ideas and tropes that I just want to knock down. If this is Mormons, is this. If this is some last thing that you're holding on to, I want to be able to like, personify it and do like a dialogue about it. So, yeah, I'm just getting started, really is the point. I'm.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] How many videos do you have?

Carah Burrell [00:10:17] Not a whole lot. Maybe, like, if I. If I have like a hundred videos, I would say like 70% of that. 70 videos are maybe like ex Mormon or Mormon related. So I show. I do like, little things about my life sometimes. But. Yeah, 70.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] You've been doing it how long?

Carah Burrell [00:10:35] I started making them maybe around Thanksgiving.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] So it's just been a few months.

Carah Burrell [00:10:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] And a lot for a few months.

Carah Burrell [00:10:41] It's not though, because if you listen to anyone on Tick Tock, they're like, you need to be putting out three videos a day. And I'm like, I cannot. I cannot be asked to do that. So I've. I'm actually probably gonna scale it back even more because I just need to spend more time cleaning my house, taking care of my kids. So I'm probably gonna do one every, like three days. If I. Until my house gets clean, then I'll let it fall into disarray again as it has been for the last month, and then start over again.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] So there's also this concept of stitching. Do you want to talk about that?

Carah Burrell [00:11:13] Oh, yeah. And the other great thing about TikTok is not only can you, you know, put up a video of yourself talking, if somebody likes your idea or doesn't like your idea, they can take the first five seconds of it, or they could even screen record and edit themselves talking. And you can do really great responses, talking back and forth kind of with people and just snowball their ideas. Or you can do duets with them where you're side by side and you want to add something to what they have to say. I can't think of another platform that's done anything really like that that makes it so easy for so many people. And I watch a lot of videos about how people think that Instagram is a dying platform because it's like shiny, pretty, it's people's like best selves on display on Instagram. And then TikTok is the opposite of that. It's people just filming themselves in their bed when they just thought of like an epiphany when they're smoking weed at like four in the morning and people put it up. And you can go viral immediately because of the way the Algorith works is that it sends out your video to a handful of people and then TikTok judges how those people, the watch time, the interaction, like likes, follows, shares, comments, how your video did to that group of people. And then if they responded well, then it branches out and sends it out to quadruple the amount of people or whatever. And so ex Mormons have a lot to say. Ex Mormons have a lot of need for community when they just left such a high demand religion like Mormonism. So people just gravitate and people just become good friends and close allies and are learning from each other and we're all like. I feel like I'm in a very like final stage of my ex Mormonism. Like I'm totally fine. I could never talk about it. No, I'm gonna take it back. I could, I will always talk about it because I think Mormon history is fascinating. But there are some people who are just, you know, deconstructing the lies that they were told growing up and still trying to decide what they want to do. Like Faith Unraveled is a good one about that. She is just kind of like taking you on her journey with her of like things that have been hidden from me. And this is how I'm talking with the people still in my ward. And she has a great channel for that. Her name's Elise. And then I think there's. Yeah. And then there's other people who like me. Like Devil Trout is one that I really like and she is so like far removed being an atheist, being an ex Mormon that like she. Yeah, there's just people like that that like we're over here on this road where we look back at Mormonism. Like with a ten foot pole, like it's so far behind us, but we're both talking about the same church and we both have things to say about it. But it doesn't affect us. I'm sorry. It doesn't affect us when people, you know, don't like our stuff or anything like that. Because I'm in a good place now. So yeah, the reach is really, really incredible.

Why Ex-Mormon Content Thrives on TikTok

John Dehlin [00:14:00] So, so what of your videos, what's the total. What's the most number of views you've had on one of your videos?

Carah Burrell [00:14:08] Oh, mine are actually. I mean in terms of one.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] Number one.

Carah Burrell [00:14:11] Oh, number one. An ex Mormon one though, because my top one is just a dumb thing that I said to my sister that was like over a half a million views.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] Okay, let me just be clear about the scale here. So Mormon Stories Podcast has had a YouTube channel for many, many years. Some of my videos have been up 10 years, I'm going to say. And the most videos I've ever received, views I've ever received on YouTube is maybe a hundred thousand. And that's with some videos been up 10 years. Really early on most of my episodes, If I get 20,000 views on YouTube for a, you know, maybe 80,000 like Benji Schwimmer or you know, Amber Score or, or Tara Westover, I did, you know, and her book was like, you know, she was on Oprah, she was interviewed with Barack Obama. Like you don't get bigger than Tara Westover. And that's some of that search engine SEO stuff is going to get, is going to bring views to your videos. But even someone like a Tara Westover, I'll be lucky If I get 80,000 views. You're getting. How many did you say?

Carah Burrell [00:15:15] Half a million. But it's not hard to get half a million on something that's like 12 seconds long sometimes. So I want to preface it that way.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] That's part of the. Yeah, that's part of the benefit of the platform.

Carah Burrell [00:15:23] Yeah. Like ex Mormon Mindy's videos are always in like the hundreds of thousands. Yeah. So just anyone talking about just the messiness of Mormonism and leaving and I know that Mormons have like a really good PR council where they have one image of what, what the Mormon church looks like and projects itself as, as really happy families. A lot of things. There's a lot of underlying issues when people, that people have to work through and that is really prevalent on a platform like TikTok. So people, I can't even tell you how many ex Mormon tiktokers There are now there's so many people just kind of telling you yeah, they're talking, they're ticking tiktokers. So I mean did that.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] One thing I don't understand is with. With how much money and influence and power the church has, why the ex Mormon community always leads in dominating. Pick your social media platform. We always, whether it's Reddit, the ex Mormon Reddit blows away any orthodox or believing Mormon Reddit. We ex Mormon or progressive Mormon podcasters just have always led and continue to dominate the podcast Mormon podcasting arena and the church is just trying to become relevant there. Same with YouTube and now same with Tick Tock. Like you would think with all the money and power the church had whenever there was a new social media. I'm probably giving them ideas which I do all the time, but it's okay. You would think that with all the power money they have, they could identify the big up and coming platforms and dominate them early. So that we don't dominate them, but we do. We always end up dominating them.

Carah Burrell [00:17:05] I know that line of thinking of like they should be on this. They should be shutting us down. Where's the. What's the council called?

John Dehlin [00:17:12] The day nights? The Council of 50?

Carah Burrell [00:17:16] No, no, no. I mean the. That's it. Strengthening the members committee. Like where are they stalking us? But I know it's easy to think that but we're talking about the church that was so incompetent that does that approve speeches in the same conference having its apostles contradict each other. Like they don't even see things that are that fucking obvious. And the devil speak that they play. Like the, the way. Like one of my major shelf items was the way that they spent the last I don't know how many years propping up the word Mormon for the I'm a Mormon campaign and all of the things. And then the next mouthpiece of God saying that that's a win for Satan. Like how, how that got past so many different thresholds of approval that they were able. Like that was such a up. You know what I mean? Like they up so wildly. The reversal of the children's of LGBT parents thing. Like colossal things that had to cause an avalanche right of people waking up and paying more attention to this religion. If they're like it's. It's. I honestly don't anything. What's that saying? Like don't blame things on a conspiracy that are just incompetence. That's how I see it right now where I'm like. And I also, I Need to make a video about this. Like I'm so somebody said to me a couple of years ago, like the, the LGBT issue is going to be the defining issue of like Gen Z and of these people like moving forward for the next how many years? Right. And the church is going to have to do something. It's going to have to change. So Mormons, like, I know that you don't believe these really like you have gay friends. I know that you're better than this. You're gonna have to start questioning now or later. And I'm glad. I felt like as soon as somebody said that to me I was like, all right, I'm start questioning now. I'm gonna actually start diving into the religion now because there's too many major fuck ups and I don't want to be, you know, in my 40s, 50s, 60s before I realize that the church isn't true and spend all of my life giving my tithing and my time and teaching my kids this. So I really hope that Tick Tock and all of these different social media platforms are the exact right evil concoction. Exact which is stew, which is brew of exactly what the church is going to falter over. Like it's, it's, there's too many voices, too many people speaking up, too many ex members, a missionary, you know, like going apeshit once they find out the church isn't true. And the lies, because we're mad, we're really mad we were sold a lie and we're, we have so much to say, you know.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] So my Mormon brain is already over, over bubbling with the reality that we've had more f bombs dropped today on, on this Mormon Stories episode than ever before.

Carah Burrell [00:20:10] Great.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] And I, I want to, I want to basically say two things. Number one is we warned you. Number two is maybe three things. The second is that I think it's, I like the fact that we can have an interview like this like for so long and I, I will continue to have Mormon Stories be a specific type of thing. But I think it's okay to be able to have an interview with someone like you to let it loose a little bit and to just let you speak how you would normally speak and have an interview where there are a lot of swear words. It's not the Mormon me and it's not the direction Mormon Stories is going. So I'm kind of getting ahead of my listeners a little bit to say please don't freak out and send me emails that now Mormon Stories has lost its way. We are always Going to be Mormon stories. But I think it's super cool that you're here dropping F bombs.

Carah Burrell [00:21:01] Great.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] Because that's you, right?

Carah Burrell [00:21:05] Yeah. And I wouldn't have any other way, so.

Carah's Early Life and Family Background

John Dehlin [00:21:09] Okay, so I. I think it'd be fun to jump into your story. Is that all right?

Carah Burrell [00:21:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] Okay. Because you have a cool, interesting story. So let's dig in. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Carah Burrell [00:21:21] It starts on a cold February morning. My birth year, 1989. No, just kidding. So both my parents were converts from back east, and my dad and mom are from Ohio and Michigan. And my mom converted around the age of 12. And I actually had a really good chat with her the other day. I was kind of, like, asking her again, like, tell me again, like, how you converted and what happened. And actually, like, her mom, when she was pregnant with my mom, got baptized and, like, dedicated my mom to the church and, like, wanted to have her. And so my mom grew up with, like, an alcoholic father and, like, really, really poor in Detroit. And she always had this strict dichotomy in her brain that, like, religious people were good people, and anyone who wasn't religious was drunk and irresponsible. And what was interesting is when she was telling me the story again, like, that's why she was so drawn to religious people. They felt like they had their lives together. And that's why she converted when she was 12. She told me that story the other day, and then a couple days later, I asked her, you know, about how she views me as somebody who's not religious anymore. And she's like, you know, like, she really thinks that religion is the only way to live a good life. And, like, subconsciously, I think I had a good talk with my mom, and I, like, unwound and, like, you know, like, Inception, where she's kind of, like, place little thought in their head. I asked her the other day, I was like, do you think that because you grew up with a drunk father that that dichotomy was just sealed in your brain and, like, you were just really condition to view religion in a positive light as the thing that saved you, which I really feel like it did. Like, my parents are definitely better people, and the church helped them get out of the situations that they were in and the very dysfunctional families they were in and raised a slightly less dysfunctional family. Right. So. So she'd never put two and two together. And she's, you know, 68 years old.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Right.

Carah Burrell [00:23:22] And I was like, do you think that, like, you view me harshly? Because she does. She if you watch any of my videos, I. Sometimes I love my parents. I always have to, like, make sure people know that. I love my parents very much, but they're also crazy, and they're also kind of robots, and they just don't think critically about things. And I asked my mom the other day, like, do you feel, like, maybe the way that you view me? And, like, the harsh. You know, she says she's told me that I. Spiraling out of control and a bitter tree that bears bitter fruit.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] Oh, no.

Carah Burrell [00:23:52] So that was not fun.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] Wait, is that where she's really mad at you or just.

Carah Burrell [00:23:57] That's just how she views me.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:23:59] But.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] Yeah, how does that not destroy your relationship right there?

Carah Burrell [00:24:02] This was in summer. Like, this was just. Yeah, this was summer. Like, 2020. She said that, and it was making her think that.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] I guess we're getting ahead of the story.

Carah Burrell [00:24:13] I can bounce around. It was because I always say that it's like, few things need, like, an F word can be. Can be merited, even if I'm talking to my Mormon mom. A few. I realized I can't do that anymore because the argument is over, even if you speak calmly. And, like, I hadn't brought up how disappointed I was in my dad's, like, unapologetic Trump, like, everything all over our house, like, our entire lawn, his entire life was like, everything Trump, the Trump store, all over his body, all over his house. And it wasn't until we were, like, out as a family at a beach in the summer that I was like, hey, dad, how about taking off that hat because you're embarrassing me. And I've never seen my dad yell at me at anyone. So my dad got really mad. And I'd never said, like. And it was specifically because, right, Like, a day before is when Trump, like, retweeted his, like, white supremacist supporters being, like, white power. White power. And, like, that retirement home, if I remember that tweet. But anyway, I was like, can we just. Like, that's just. Please, please. And my dad started yelling at me, and I was like, dad, I haven't said any to you in four years, and it's really time. Like, it's out of hand now. And my mom. The discussion was over after that, and my mom was like, I do not like that word. I do not like that word. Actually, I have a video about that, too, about psychoanalyzing Mormonism. And at the end of the video where I'm like. Like, nobody programmed me to be mad at that. Like, nobody, like, In Mormon's mind, nobody programmed them to be mad at white supremacy or like, you know, Trump or anything like that. It's all just like the F word. That's where I in on. That's your real problem right now, Carah. And so I was just like, okay, don't get mad, don't get emotional, don't get too mad. So I was like trying to be calm. And yeah, so that's where she's like, kara, I gotta tell you, ever since you left church, you're just spiraling out of control. You're just a bitter tree bearing bitter fruit. By your fruits you shall know them, you know, and look at you saying the F word in reference to Trump doing something completely irresponsible and horrible for everyone involved, for our country. But you, Carah, you're the problem. So that, that's the, that's the rockiest that our relationship ever was. But I can talk through conversations with my parents pretty calmly. And the best part is great tip for anyone, I like to. Sometimes if I know I'm going into a difficult conversation with my parents, I'll record it on my phone so that I don't have to go through like the emotional like upheaval of like then telling it again to my husband later and I'll just. If he picks me up from my parents house. Yeah, I just, literally, it's the most beautiful marriage. He just is like, phone, hand it aux cord, press play. And we drive home back to my house in Salt Lake, and he just listens to the conversation I had with my mom and we can pause it and he'd be like, good point, Carah. Be like, oh, I can then just validate me that like my mom's like, oh, listen, wait, listen to this part. Listen what she says here. It's a great way to like decompress. Then you feel validated, you're closer with your husband, and then you're just like, okay, now that shit show is closed. Close that door and move on. So anyway, back to how my mom views me. Yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] No, no, no. So, so you know you were talking about how your mom grew up in this dysfunctional household with an alcoholic dad or whatever. Like that's part of what's so disorienting about losing your faith in the church and, or leaving the church. Because it is probably impossible to deny the fact that the church can be great for pulling people out.

Carah Burrell [00:27:43] Yeah, no doubt.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] Really bad lives, really bad situations, poverty, low education, dysfunctional families. It gives them some structure and it gives them some order and people like that become cult fodder or.

Carah Burrell [00:27:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Or fodder for a high demand religion if you don't want to call a church a cult. But it does improve their lives. And so that makes it. And it sounds like that's what happened with your parents.

Carah Burrell [00:28:09] Yeah, absolutely. And just like, you know, there's sometimes when you're not loved the proper way as a child, you find that you look for that love in like a man or something. Like that's I think just this the typical way that we, what we don't have at home. And the church can be a wonderful second family for a lot of people. And so I don't ever want people to get the wrong idea that my content is to push that. I think everyone should leave the church because I don't actually know your situation. And I literally always think that if your situation is as bad as my mom or my dad or something and the church was the thing that's going to be your level up. I, I would never take that away from you. I don't know you, I don't know your mental health or your situation. But for people like me who are like suburban stay at home moms and just kind of going through the motions a little bit and things are not adding up and it's causing you a lot of mental stress, like you should look into the truth claims of the church and you should have like a good path out and have a vision of a life that's fulfilling on the other side. But yeah, I don't ever want to push that. Like, I think that the church should just all the time go away because I know that's just not realistic. And I know that we can just keep encouraging people within the church to keep speaking up and make small amounts of change. But I don't know what your opinions on that are, that I just don't see the church. I see it maybe getting healthier, maybe not, but I don't see it just like no matter how much I want to scream into an abyss and wish that it's not that it didn't exist, it's not going to do anything. Like my anger wouldn't do anything. So refine that into comedy.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] And part of what's probably giving people the wrong impression about you and your story because you know, because you feel passionately right now about all this stuff and you should when we get to your store, you actually had a good Mormon upbringing.

Carah Burrell [00:29:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] And you, you actually are grateful for

Carah Burrell [00:29:49] your Mormon, no trauma. Except for finding out it wasn't true. That's the only trauma.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] Yeah. Other than that. Okay, so going back to your parents, your. Your. Your mom converts through her mom.

Carah Burrell [00:30:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] Gets out of a dysfunctional family. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:30:03] And my mom went to BYU for a little bit and moved out west. And my dad converted in his early 20s, and my dad was a hippie and was traveling through what was alluring

John Dehlin [00:30:14] to the church for him about the church. Oh, do you know.

Carah Burrell [00:30:19] That's a really good question. I'm trying to think. I think the word of wisdom was the first thing.

John Dehlin [00:30:25] So he was an adult.

Carah Burrell [00:30:27] Yeah, he was an adult.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] Religious attachment, and he voluntarily converted to Mormonism.

Carah Burrell [00:30:32] Yeah, he was definitely raised Catholic in a big Catholic family. He's in the middle of 10 kids. And I do know that it was very difficult for his parents to get over that he converted. But again, he had his own dysfunction, his childhood, too. And he, like, his dad was cheating on his mom, and they got divorced when I think he was, like, 15. And I think Mormonism offers people, like, this really idyllic dream of, like, a happy family and a nice frame. And it's like if you had a rough childhood and maybe you have something to aspire to and you want the same happy families that you see at church, I think that. That people who come from dysfunctional homes, you know, they can really attach themselves to that idea. And, yeah, my dad cut off his. His ponytail and got baptized, and then he met my mom, and they settled in Michigan at first, and then Ohio. And my dad's family owns a winery. And growing up, they owned a beer distribution in the little town that I grew up in on Lake Erie, which is also really funny because it's one town over from the town that Bill Real, who I also credit, along with you, with getting me out of Mormonism. Bill Real's podcasts are so good. And he lives in Sandusk, or he grew up in Sandusky, I mean, and lived there for a long time and was the bishop of the ward over there. And so when I was first, like, questioning. Not even that I was questioning. My husband was listening to more, like, ex Mormon podcasts before I was. And he's like, kara, you should really listen to this guy. He was. He's actually a bishop in a ward, like, Right. You know, one town over from your house. And I was like, he's gotta be a good dude now. So all you have to do is just find something in common with the next Mormon and then, like, sneak it into your Mormon friends, like, podcast rotation, and then they'll be sitting with John de Lynn in two years.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] So with a successful TikTok channel, maybe

Carah Burrell [00:32:26] they, they can shout out to Bill. Yeah, shout out to Bill.

Growing Up Mormon in the Midwest and Utah

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Okay, so your parents get married and they settle in the Midwest. And they didn't. But it wasn't the typical Mormon upbringing.

Carah Burrell [00:32:39] Now my dad is. My dad's too much of a goofball man, my dad, he's the type of person that like when we're trying to have family prayer or family home evening, like, he's like opening his eyes and like making jokes, trying to make us laugh. And there'd be a point when I was growing up with my sister and I would be like, dad, knock it off. That's really disrespectful to your wife. So I never like looked up to my dad as like this any, like any type of stereotypical, like patriarchal priesthood leader you could think of a dad. No, he was like a younger brother. It's like almost annoying sometimes. So I was the youngest of five. So whenever somebody wonders why I am the way I am, it's pretty much that reason that I have a very special needs oldest brother. And my house was very chaotic because of that, because my parents, my, my oldest brother is deaf and has Asperger's. And that just sets you up for just not having a good life, just a very, very isolated life. So my brother has a lot of issues to deal with. Star houses, any, any ideas about like a Mormon family that I had, like the love at home, the peace at home. My house was not peaceful. My brother is constantly screaming, constantly needed something, constantly the center of some type of meltdown, some type of gigantic tantrum or fight in my house. And then my dad was working all the time. And so the church was the thing that like really made my mom feel like it was the glue that kept us together, that she was the one really always pushing for, you know, family evenings and stuff like that. Which, yeah, like, which I'm grateful for that my mom had that. I, she always says that like my oldest brother is like her reward in heaven. Like she feels like that's the trial that God gave her. And if that's what gets you through this life, mom, like totally do that because I, I've never, I've never tried to raise a special needs child without, as an atheist or without any kind of faith system. So I don't know how difficult that is. And if that's what gets you through it, mom, like, I will not. I literally just have a hands off approach to that because I know that she's had a very difficult life, so.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Sure. And so if I remember right, your family didn't stay in the Midwest for long. You guys made your way to Zion.

Carah Burrell [00:35:01] Yeah, my mom had a dream that she needed to move out west because she was afraid my brothers wouldn't attend seminary. And the town that we grew up in is like I said, is on the lake. It's like got a party culture to it. And the teens, you know, they start drinking and they start doing the typical teenage stuff and 0% chance that my brothers or anyone in my family for that matter, staying in this town would stay Mormon. Like we didn't have another Mormon that lived in our entire town. We had to drive a half an hour just to go to our ward building. So as a five year old I understood this. Like I, I actually got on board. Like not that I got on board, but we moved out to Arizona and my dad kept his job in Ohio. And then the dysfunction just went through the roof because my dad didn't want to find a job. He still had a good job back in Ohio. So it was my mom, five kids in a tiny apartment and then a pretty small house in Mesa for a few years with my dad traveling back and forth every month, staying for the weekend and stuff. My mom just like pulling her hair out trying to get us to go to church, trying. We were all total smart asses too. So again, go figure. And, but Mesa is, you know, it's like we had, half of our block was Mormon, half the kids I went to elementary school with were Mormon, you know, so that was definitely good for us. And then we just upgraded from little Provo to real Provo and moved into North Provo, the most Mormony Mormon place there's got to be per capita. I can't think of any place higher than where I grew up in Provo. So I really liked it there though. And I had a really good childhood and I love, I can, I'm an ex Mormon content creator now. I've just like gone. This is the path for me. But I will like, I can't say anything bad about like, like the people that I grew up with my homeward in Provo. Just some of the best people I'll ever know. Just like really hard working, honest, funny people who raised me that I'll love no matter what, you know.

Primary Songs, Teen Years, and Church Conditioning

John Dehlin [00:37:02] I have to ask you this because I ask everyone, did you have any favorite primary songs or church hymns?

Carah Burrell [00:37:08] Yeah, I always really felt the spirit during. I don't know the name of it though. It's that we have been born as Nephite. What's that one? What's the name of that one?

John Dehlin [00:37:20] The parents who love the Lord. We have been taught and we understand that we will do as the Lord we are as the armies of Helaman. We have been taught in our youth.

Carah Burrell [00:37:32] Ptsd. All right, stop. Did I tell you this last time? I can't remember if I like, how annoying was Carah growing up? This is how annoying I was. Like, I love to make people uncomfortable. And I was so rowdy. And I. My favorite thing is when I was a teenager was my. My primary. My. My young woman's leaders who used to be my primary leaders. Who are these women who raised me? They'll. If they ever see this, they'll know exactly who I'm talking about. And I still love them with all my heart to this day. And they're like. Would tell me as a teenager, like, we would have meetings about you, Carah, in primary to try specific primary presidency meetings. How do we get Carah to save. Sit still and pay attention. And they didn't know that all that indoctrination was actually still going in. It's still all in there. That's why I have this channel doing what I'm doing right now. But, like, I would be. So I would sit in the front row of primary while the chorister was going, and I would like, like, literally right underneath her and just smile at her and sing as loudly and as creepily into her eyes as possible. And like this. Me and this chorister, we're not even friends. We like. She did not get pick up the weirdness that I was trying to convey. She was like, what the freak is this child doing? So great times in my homeward there. We even had a. A young woman's. Or it was an entire steak. What do you call it? Like, it was like a steak challenge for every single youth to do an art project to show their testimony of Joseph Smith through art. That's some culty that I just said. And I was really into, like, making T shirts as a teenager. And I made a T shirt. Like the Cringe, John, Just the cringe. I made a T shirt design where I put together all my favorite, like, images of Joseph Smith into a heart shape. And I displayed that for my art project. Like, I had a mannequin and everything. No, I don't. I have photos of it, I bet. But it's. It's. I like, wore it to school too, because everyone's Mormon at school.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] Anyway, create it and sell it on your red bubble or whatever.

Carah Burrell [00:39:35] Yeah, my red bubble store. Yeah, my redbubble store of all of my designs that.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] Yeah, I'm seriously recreate.

Carah Burrell [00:39:43] Oh my gosh. Just thinking about it, I'm like in a cringe place right now. I need to like think of something positive now because I'm like remembering the indoctrination of. Oh man. Just like the things that we had testimonies of without even knowing what about, you know, the Book of Abraham or anything like that. It's like, what the fuck was I even having a testimony of what was I hearting here? Like, I don't even know. I didn't even like the Book of Mormon very much growing up. I liked everything else. But.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Okay, so you were kind of a rowdy. Your, your family was rowdy. I channeled that primary talk about your kind of spirituality as, let's just say a teen. So we get into your teen years. You're going to young women's, you're doing youth activities, you're probably going to seminary at some point. How was your testimony during that time?

Carah Burrell [00:40:30] Yeah, I just. What's funny is my sister last night

John Dehlin [00:40:34] camp and you got to mention girls camp.

Carah Burrell [00:40:36] Yeah, okay, I'll get to that one too. I didn't realize it was a stereotype. I was, I was living out a stereotype because at 14 I got really into learning about spiritual things and metaphysical and psychics and spirit guides and things like that. And I would sit on the floor at Borders reading just all about other ideas about spirituality outside of mine. Cuz I feel like I was about to go into seminary and I wanted just what are other perspectives on faith? My sister told me last night that that happens to a lot of 14 year olds. So I am not special on that, I guess. And I remember going into seminary being like, okay, this church is true, but these men, I'm gonna hold what they have with like a grain of salt because I feel like, like the things they're saying are like just. Are just so canned, you know? They're not. I remember thinking how like the, the way that we dress in the church in these business suits is like not conducive to like the hippie vibe that I was kind of feeling. I was like, I don't feel like these people are real arbiters of God or I feel like they're all good men. Like, I really feel like the men that in my ward and people were, were definitely doing the best obviously with what they had. And I don't think they had like nefarious ideas in their head, but that they were just, they did not have the spirituality that is so abundant in so many other ways. They had, you know, one small vision of it. And so I went into seminary being like, these guys think they know spirituality. I 14 year old Carah will really, I'm going to raise my hand a lot. I'm going to tell them what I, I think about this. And so I think I did that and I think that helped me have like a really healthy view of the church early on that, you know, other people, rightfully so the way that a lot of harmful ideas are, you know, pushed down their throat and they should feel a lot of trauma and a lot of negative PTSD kind of response from. If your parents were really dogmatic and you had leaders who shamed you and you had, you know, not take the sacrament and people are whispering about you like I can. There's so many different ways to have a horrible experience in the church. I just missed a lot of that because I didn't take what people had to say too seriously. Too seriously. Like it affected me too much. Like I never felt like I had to go see the bishop about anything because I was like me relationship with God. Like I feel like this supersedes whatever is going on between when people say you need to talk to the bishop or you need to like, do you know, you need to follow the exact rules this way. I always had like a DIY religion for myself while still definitely holding that this was their store gospel. This was true. But I have such a good relationship with God that certain things I'm not going to like, bog me down, you know.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] So is that self confidence? Because a lot of us don't feel like we have the liberty of like, you know, downgrading church leaders to kind of like a lower level. You were kind of downgrading their authority in your mind at a, in your adolescence. Is that self confidence? Yeah. What was that?

Carah Burrell [00:43:39] I think there's like two tracks of what you first get conditioned with in Mormonism. And I think some people, they get conditioned that these men speak for God and you follow what they say to the letter of the law. And then other people get conditioned with the spirit of the law kind of. And that can definitely help. Me and my husband were both, I think we fell in love so fast when I, when I married my husband because we both understood the spirit of the law was, was the way that God intended it and not the letter of the law. And a lot of people are more orthodox and they like things doing that way. So I think I just was conditioned from a young age to just to go by the. Go by the spirit, go by what felt right, what. What my conscience led me to do.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] So, I mean, honestly, if more Mormons did that, we'd probably have less people leaving the church. Yeah, because they wouldn't have allowed them put themselves in a position to experience severe harm or abuse. Yeah, they would just kind of take every. You know, it's like Catholics in the Catholic Church. Lots of people believe in the Catholic Church, but they think the Pope is full of crap and they practice birth control and it's. No, it's like everybody, Everybody gets that in Mormonism. There isn't yet that culture of kind of like, don't take it all too seriously. And that's what leads to the lgbtq. So, yeah, LGBTQ suicides, the masturbation shame, or the splitting up of families. It's. It's the fact that people do take it too seriously. So the fact that you were able to kind of disassociate yourself from that level of severity is. Is. It's actually a good example, ironically, for Mormons.

Carah Burrell [00:45:12] Yeah.

Bishop Interviews and Navigating Mormon Sexual Shame

John Dehlin [00:45:12] So does this mean that, like, if you messed around with your boyfriend in high school, you didn't feel guilty and didn't feel like you had to?

Carah Burrell [00:45:20] No, I was. I feel like I had such a good relationship with God that I wouldn't. I was on those people where it's exactly what the church wants you to do. Like, it wants you to have. Have such a strong. I mean, wants you. This is how I would have interpreted it if I was still Mormon, that the church. Yeah. You want to have such a close relationship with God that you just want to abide in the spirit and you want to feel close to him that you wouldn't do. Want to do anything to disappoint him, to drive the spirit away. So I think that's kind of how I led things. And I was spiritually inclined enough that I could feel a difference in myself. I mean, now as an atheist, I reinterpret those feelings. But then I interpreted, you know, shame is just something where I need to say a prayer and I need to repent and then I'm good with God. Like, we're on the same level. I don't need to go. My bishop was also Elder Oaks's son. So I never want to be in a room. Nothing. No. Again, nothing against him. He's a fabulous, hard working father and has, I'm sure, many.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] Was he stern and harsh and like.

Carah Burrell [00:46:20] Yeah. But, like, turn the. Turn the dial up. Up, like, even farther.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] He was.

Carah Burrell [00:46:24] I don't want to say anything bad about him, but yeah, he. So here's a good story. So he is actually a link again. I'm the. The family. I grew up with them still great people. His wife helped sell my wedding dress for free. Like, I don't want to disparage this family whatsoever, but he is very stern. You know, when you're talking to somebody and they just, like, don't have a sense of humor. I had to learn that lesson the hard way when I was, like 16, because I thought he. This is like when one of my every six month Bishop interviews. The infamous Bishop interviews, Right. Everyone else has, like, you know, really kind of traumatizing, scary Bishop interview stories. I have ones like this where I was traumatized that people don't find me funny and don't get my jokes. I'm just kidding. I was traumatized because he's a linguistics professor and he wrote this textbook on joke telling that's like this. This big. My dad borrowed it from him. And I was like, oh, surely somebody who has studied joke telling will understand my sarcasm. And I was sitting down with an interview with him, and I was sick of him asking since I was 12 years old. Again, red flag. But I was sick of him asking since I was 12 years old. Carah, are you sexually active? Me going, no. Next direct question is, are you pregnant? And I just thought that was the stupidest thing to ask in the entire world. Since every six months, basically, I'm like, if I was pregnant, first of all, I would say that I was sexually active. I would not dodge that bullet. And then I know what's coming. So anyway, so I was kind of sick of it, and I decided to be sarcastic. And so I just, like, looked down at my belly and put my hand down. I went, well, just kidding. And he did not take my, like, jk. He did not understand pregnancy. Jk yeah. Do not joke around with the son of an apostle. They do not find pregnancy jokes funny. And. And it literally was. It was. It was traumatizing how my joke didn't land. No, it was traumatizing because he did not stop bringing it up all the time. Like, we could. He couldn't even, like, move past it in the interview. Like, it derailed everything. He, like, literally didn't believe that I was kidding. So, yeah, awkward times there, but that's not fun. Yeah.

Girls Camp, Progressive Leaders, and Faith in Youth

John Dehlin [00:48:38] Okay, so talk about girls camp, because, yeah, it sounds like you had cool, kind of cool leaders, right? Other Than maybe. Yeah, maybe not your bishop.

Carah Burrell [00:48:46] Yeah, I know that what, you know, my face is going to get out there as an ex Mormon creator. And then I. People are from my childhood that I grew up with are going to find this and they're going to be like, oh, no, we're going to listen to Carah all over the church for three hours or whatever. And what it's going to happen is I'm just going to compliment everyone that's watching because I still love all of these people with all my heart. But yeah, so I was raised by some pretty badass leaders and a feminist even. And they just, again with that whole, like, not being too serious about, like, the. Of a lot of things. Like, that's how they, they raised us. Like, these are my friends, moms, like, all of the girls that I grew up with that I'm still pretty good friends with most of them, like, and still keep in contact with their parents. And like, that went from my primary leaders to my unwelcome leaders and my girls camp leaders. And like, they would have, if somebody tried to do the cupcake or like, the chewing gum purity lesson in our young women's, like, they would have laid their bodies in front of the door to make sure, like, they wouldn' never let that stuff go down.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] So you didn't get those lessons?

Carah Burrell [00:49:48] If I did, I, I think I would have remembered it because I was always, like, really keen on, like, listening for where I want to criticize and raise my hand and like, you know, bring up my little opinions. But yeah, I don't think I ever did. And I don't think my leaders would have allowed it because I'm in class with my other friends who are raised by, like, feminist moms. And I know that my friends, if I don't say something, they would have said something. So no, I don't think I had that listen. And girls camp.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] So you had feminist leaders in novo.

Carah Burrell [00:50:15] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] That's great.

Carah Burrell [00:50:17] Yeah, definitely. So it's. That's what's hard about, like, progressive Mormons is like, I know they're so close to leaving and I know that'd be good for them and, you know, in so many ways. But then I'm like, you could be having influence on so many a new, you know, your young woman's part of your congregation or whatever that grow up with a much healthier mindset. So, yeah, that's still up in the air how I feel about progressive Mormons. But girls camp is. Was my time to shine sometimes because I. My leaders really encouraged me to do comedy. And my mom actually, really, for being as Mormon as my mom is, my mom has always loved my comedy. So I started writing, like, satirical funny songs on my guitar, starting really young.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] Sorry.

Carah Burrell [00:51:05] And Girls camp was kind of my time that I, like, displayed them for all of my friends. And I even had a song about my period. And there was this pageant at Girls Camp. At Girls Camp. There was this. I did have my period at girls Camp. And Maya Shalom had a mile Shalom Pageant and all the. It's like seven. What's it, six year. Yeah. Six year girls that wanted to participate would all do, like, this pageant with, like, different. Like, a comedy or I mean, like a talent portion and interview portion. And it was just to, like, really explain how I am. I am not even near as funny as the people I look up to and the people not just who raised me, but, like, the friends that I was surrounded by in my ward and my stake. Just the funniest girls, legitimately hilarious people. So we put on this pageant and I really needed to, like, pull out the stops because they were all beating me. And I was like, I'm supposed to be the funny person here. And it didn't work out, but I played my song on the guitar, this period song, and I was like, one of those just, like, moments that's, like, burned into your memory of, like, joy and, like, I never want to stop doing this. So I sang.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Do you remember the song?

Carah Burrell [00:52:17] Yeah. And sing some of it. Oh, God. The lyrics are like, Mr. Period. Oh, how you annoy. I wish you would go and bother the boys. I feel sick and I think I'm gonna faint because I've got cramps. Like, you've got complaints. And it was all just about, like,

John Dehlin [00:52:32] wait, sing the melody.

Carah Burrell [00:52:33] No, no, no, I will. I want to do a live stream one day and just try to remember all of my songs again. My mom was, like, actually pretty supportive. She did massage and she did massage to pay for me to record them in a studio to just get all of my songs, like, on a cd, just so I could have it for memories. I don't know where it is. So I got married and all of my stuff, like, went around, and I don't actually know where it went, but, yeah, which sucks because, yeah, I spent a lot of time and money on that, and I can't actually find it anymore.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] But your mom spent a lot of money on it.

Carah Burrell [00:53:10] Yeah, sorry. My mom spent a lot of money on it, and I turned one of my songs and I got like one of my songs, like fully produced and made a little stupid music video. All satire, apparently. I have to always explain that people always think that I'm like more serious than I am. I'm like, satire is the only real language that I can speak in. So I was doing like satirical songs about even Mormonism, but like teenage things. And I sang a song at my like junior year of high school. I sang a song called Teenage Girl to my entire high school in Provo Tempe High School. And it's again, another like burned in my memory of just lyrics.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] What are some lyrics?

Carah Burrell [00:53:53] Oh, teenage girl. So this is very 2006. But it's like I wake up every morning with my brat T shirt on. I wake up every morning with my Brat T shirt on. Are you awake, sweetheart? Says my fashionably cool mom. I step into my shower filled with nine dollar shampoo, then wash my face with Neutrogena like all the cool girls do. It takes me an hour just to do my hair. Another 90 minutes deciding what to wear because I'm just teenage girl, a regular teenage girl. And it's just like going through the satire of being a Mormon. Provo, Utah girl. Like, I list, I drive to school, Thor exchange student Horatio while I blast just in Timberlake on the radio. Like, things like that. Again, super 2006. But yeah, all kinds of references.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] So how did you get away with singing a song about men's menstruation at girls camp?

Carah Burrell [00:54:48] Yeah, it was because. Yeah, because again, I have to set the stage. Like that was in an amphitheater of my entire. All the girls in my stake. So a gigantic amount of people. And I prefaced it at the beginning, I was like, if there's any. I really. I don't think I would have done it if I didn't feel like I was losing the pageant. So it was literally like my. I was like, I'm gonna go a little inappropriate here. And there's some really actually kind of inappropriate lines in there that I don't even remember. But yeah. And I like prefaced it by saying, like, any priesthood leaders? This is a girls camp. We don't want you. Get out. I'm. Don't complain to me later. So I said this kind of as a bold like 17 year old, like, I'm going to be inappropriate now. Somebody try and stop me. When I played my song and I had a microphone too, and everyone was just like. I just remember like people like laughing, like hyenas, like jumping up and down in front of me and I'M like, this feels good. Same thing when I performed at the talent show in high school. Yeah. That was, like, imprinted in my mind, like, always make people laugh, whatever you have to do.

John Dehlin [00:55:52] I love this idea, though, of a Provo ward defying the stereotype, because there are many wards I've been in as both a teen and as an adult, where if a girl sang about menstruation or having periods at girls camp, it just. It would have never happened, let alone been laughed at and celebrated. And so I. I kind of love it that there's this. In the heart of Utah county, in Provo, you've got feminist leaders.

Carah Burrell [00:56:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Cheering you on as you sing songs at girls camp about having periods.

Carah Burrell [00:56:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] Something kind of cool about that.

Carah Burrell [00:56:25] Yeah. And again, I always. I think one of the things that kept me in the church for longer than it should have is because I. I mean, I stayed in as long as I needed to, but for whatever I needed to learn from my life journey. But what's funny is, like, this isn't funny. Sorry. What's sad is that I still, for so long, being Mormon, I had such a pinhole view of the world. And you kind of just naturally assume that other people have the bad experiences and get the bad lessons that you had if you had a negative experience in the church. And so I had such a disdain for a lot of ex Mormons for so long because I didn't understand what their problem was. I was like, yeah, leave the church. Leave it alone. Like, okay, you didn't like this?

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:57:06] Some leaders say some crazy things, but just ignore them. It's like, no. People were conditioned to revere these leaders. Like, they talk for God in ways that I wasn't. And I just had to literally grow up and mature to the point where I needed to start listening to people's messages. And I'm trying to remember, like. Like, when that kind of clicked for me is embarrassing. Like, late 20s is when it started to click with me that, oh, you know what? It literally was, because the first thing that I. That I watched when I was kind of like, all right, I don't like ex Mormons. I'm definitely staying Mormon. But let's see what they have to say where my first, like, empathy, like, light switch turned on was an interview that Salmon Tanner did from Self on the shelf with Sean McCraney's last name with Heart of the Matter. And I was like, I wanted to be a Christian no matter what. So I was like, okay, the Christians in the room. I can watch this and their interview was just so genuine. And you could tell, like, Tanner had long, deep rooted testimony, probably deeper than I could ever have. And he had to come to terms with that. He had to rebuild a new life outside the church. It just was not true. And Sam saying that in her own way, and I was like, these are two incredibly articulate people and I agree with everything they say. And it was just, you know, downhill or uphill, however you want to think of it from there. Because I had to really listen and empathize that ex Mormons, they do have a legitimate point. And once you start like listening and hearing that, like people leave for very valid reasons. What are some valid reasons you should maybe being paying attention to? Maybe you should go look up some of that anti Mormon material you were never told to look at before. Maybe you should actually know who wrote the Bible and how it was put together and, and just start deconstructing things if you're gonna. Especially like I was saying earlier with like the LGBT things like, if you're going to defend your church on these issues that are so causing so much harm to people, you better know what you're talking about. And I think that's going to become a real hot issue or just more and more people, the tension getting hotter and hotter. Right. So anyway, I, Yeah, I had to just deconstruct that. My, My upbringing was probably 10 out of 10 as healthy in every way that I could have asked for. So.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] But it sounds like that's. There's some, there's some awesomeness about that, but some insidiousness about that. Because it sounds like what you're saying is because you were raised by progressive feminist, cool leaders that made you feel more comfortable in the church.

Carah Burrell [00:59:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] And more affection for the church. Such that maybe it took you longer.

Carah Burrell [00:59:38] Yeah. It was a different church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:40] Took you longer to see the church clearly.

Carah Burrell [00:59:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] And it was harder to leave it because you had been inoculated with kind of a more nuanced way of looking. Nuanced toe. Because it was a more nuanced way of looking at things. And you had such a positive experience. So in some ways that's insidious.

Carah Burrell [00:59:56] Yeah, that's what I always say. I'm like, it kept me in like, I. Who knows if I had a different upbringing, like, if I would have done that, but I was like, that's how the universe spit me out. Out in Provo, Utah. These are the people that surrounded me. These are the, this is the conditioning that I had. And I got out all I can say is I, I definitely felt like I was in the church for the times in my life that, that, that's, that's all I had. Like, that's enough. Like I had the church that got me through some definitely like difficult times that I can't imagine. And I, and now that just helps me that I empathize more with people. Why they don't leave the church. Like I was living in the student family housing in Salt Lake. It's probably similar to the one that's like at Utah State or byu where it's just tons of Mormons packed in these tiny apartments with like, you know, a playground in the middle and just packs and packs of Mormon families. And I'm raising two babies at this point. My husband's in school full time and working and I'm a stay at home mom. And you walk outside your front door and I have all the friend, all the friends I would need. They're all Mormon, all people in my board. If I for some reason found out the church wasn't true at that time and I had to not, not attend church anymore, like to out of my own conscious or whatever, I would have, it's like that social, you, what's the word? Social, I can't remember. But it would have destroyed my social life, my mental health, everything that kept me going when I was raising my girls when they were really little in this tiny apartment when you're really poor. And the church was absolutely just that community that I needed that was right outside my front door every single day. So I really try to like, empathize. Why, like you would have never in 1 million years been able to reach me. Like three years ago, you would not have been able to. Because my life, my mental health, everything about my life revolved around keeping up appearances at church, just to be able to get through the day. Because life was just such a grind back then. And it gave me hope and it gave me purpose and it gave me those things. And so I don't. People want people to get the wrong idea. Like I said before that like, I think that you should give that up in favor of what I think you should do. It's like if you've already decided that you're gonna give that up, here's a safe like landing ground, you know, with my videos and, and everything else that I plan on doing in the future. We'll see what else I'm up to.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] But so is it, is it fair to say you escaped the, a lot of the sexual guilt and shame that that Mormon teens experience. Are you saying you kind of escaped that? That.

Carah Burrell [01:02:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] Okay, cool.

Carah Burrell [01:02:23] Should we do. Should we get into the serious part now? I mean, because we could. So I. I think it. So. I mean, I worked through this in therapy, so I'm not, like, afraid to talk about it or anything. But I did have a lot of sexual abuse growing up. And that for whatever reason, I, as a very young child, remember being like 11 years old in fifth grade, then starting puberty. And anybody who is abused as a child will probably. I don't know. I haven't talked to very many people, but I would assume that for a lot of children, like the light switch on your head, that sexuality is a thing turns on and it doesn't just turn off. So if that's on since you're two years old, and then when you're starting to start puberty and you're recognizing these feelings again, I think it can. It can go so many wrong ways. It can go so many guilt, shamy, horrible ways. Especially in, like, a religious structure with it is built around a lot of guilt and shame. I totally dodged that bullet. I think, you know, people can go off the deep end one way to be extremely, like, sexually active at a young age, or they could become, like, sexually insanely, like, sexually repressed and not want anything. I feel like I stayed. I'm gonna. I don't know if it was because of the church. I. I can give them credit for that. That and my leaders as well, that I just remember from a very young age as a fifth grader, thinking to myself that there's nothing I need to feel guilty for. There's not a single thing. I am totally comfortable and fine with this. Not that I'm fine with this, but, like, this is going to be my trial. I remember thinking about that with the way that my mom talked about my brother. Like, that's her trial. And we're thinking as a fifth grader, like, okay, this is mine. I can do this.

John Dehlin [01:04:04] Being what?

Carah Burrell [01:04:05] This being dealing with the abuse in my. My mental health from that. And like, the only real depressive episode that I had about it was like, in ninth grade where I was. I was probably should have seen some help or something. In ninth grade, I was in a really, really bad, Brad. Depressed place. But I think I worked through that and I really had very clear mental health from that point on and really strict boundaries. Like when I was dating my husband and I wasn't too prudish. I wasn't. I feel like I stayed right on the, like, the level right in the middle that you kind of want to stay on with like as healthy as a view about sexuality as you possibly could given all the circumstances that I just mentioned. Being raised in Mormonism, being raised and having the childhood that I had, I really feel like the church. Oh yeah. I mean now I think back to it, it's like the lessons about like divine nature and that you are like ordained to be a goddess future. Like that type of idea that like God wants so much for me, he has sent his son to die for me. He loves me unconditionally. And I know that the feelings I'm having are not something to feel guilty about that I need to talk to a bishop about. It's. These are just left over from my childhood and I was very. All through my teen years I never saw the bishop for anything that maybe other people would have haunted them because I was just very clear headed about why like my thoughts weren't my own. Like I was very aware that like that's why again, I was probably poised to. One of my biggest shelf item before anything Mormonism came up was the idea about free will and determinism. As I realized that I, I was a determinist or I just really didn't believe in free will. And how do you keep on a testimony of Mormonism when you don't believe in free will and free agency and the entire way of the plan of salvation being set up. That was my most difficult, the heaviest shelf breaker to begin with. And I think that was like, why

John Dehlin [01:05:59] didn't you think there was free will?

Carah Burrell [01:06:01] I just saw my conditioning. I was very aware of my own conditioning and my abuse of what it. It made me do what it was, it made me act, it made. I mean being the youngest too, I was very aware that like I'm obnoxious because no one's paying attention to me. Like, like I'm. It's not a surprise. Like I think I was aware of my conditioning from a very young age and then when I grew into adulthood and I understood more of like the worked out philosophies about, about free will and how we are not just these conscious actors going through the world that we constantly are making these decisions. And so much of Mormonism, so you know, entire theology is based around like Satan pulling you this way and you need to abide in the spirit over here to be able to make good choices. And once I see that, like I do not buy this idea that Satan and then is tempting anyone to do anything. I was like, we especially when you really. I think Mormons really have to come to terms with the. The ideas that the prophet and the official doctrine of the church doesn't accept evolution. And you were like, it's very difficult to recover from that place once you realize and you really work through the ideas about evolution and. But no, like, I don't think that the tr. I don't think the world is like 6,000 years old. I can't. I can't follow a prophet. That was another huge self item. I was like, I cannot follow a prophet that thinks that dogs have always been dogs or whatever. His quote is that Russell Nelson says, yeah, too bad they prop him up as like a smart scientist all the time. And I was like, no scientist wants to be friends with an evolution desire. Denier. Sorry. Yeah.

Doubts, Comedy Beginnings, and Early Adulthood

John Dehlin [01:07:33] So did you ever have any other big testimony, cracks, any big doubts in your teen years kind of before.

Carah Burrell [01:07:42] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] You finished high school Again, very faithful.

Carah Burrell [01:07:45] I had, again, my best friends in my ward who are still all LDs, I think, and like, we. I feel like we bonded so much over so many things and like, we were in it together. So my testimony, we were so open about, like, our. Our problems, our doubts, our things and we. I also like to dispel the myth that, like, Mormons are super always buttoned up, whatever. Like, me and my friends and my leaders talked about sex pretty openly through my teen years and stuff. So it wasn't this, like, clouded secret of like, you're, you know. And a lot of Mormons talk about, like, oh, and then on the day of my wedding, I was supposed to just like, turn on a switch, but I was sexually repressed and told sex was bad all the time. Again, I totally validate that. That is a message that people get a lot. I did not get that message from my leaders or our friends or any of the discussions that I had.

John Dehlin [01:08:35] What was the message you got?

Carah Burrell [01:08:36] Oh, here's a good one. Oh, because so my. My. I'm gonna call her my one particular leader who knows who she is. And anyone who watches this will absolutely know be like, oh, she's talk. And so we were all in her backyard when I was about 16 years old and my mom, again, a little bit weird, a little bit kooky. My mom said to me, I was retelling the story to them. My mom said to me, you know, Carah, I don't. I wouldn't mind if polygamy came back because I just don't think that one woman can possibly satisfy all of the sexual desires of one man. And I was retelling the story to my friends and my leaders in their backyard about like my mom said this. Can you believe it? And then my leader was like, oh, Carol, I just. Oh, I shouldn't say anything. Nevermind. I shouldn't say anything. And we're like, ooh, what? Tell us, tell us. And she's like, okay, no, Carol. One man cannot possibly satisfy all of the sexual needs of one woman. And then all of us teenagers were like. And I had a sleepover as like a 30 year old woman with my best friend who was there from high school, who's still like my best friend. And I asked her if she remembered that story and she like finished it for me. Like she remembers. It was a huge, like this happened like life changing. Yeah. Like it, it snowballed. And we had a talk about it the other day how it literally flipped a marvelous switch on in our head that any ideas that we had about like the way that this gender norm has been set up. Sure there's going to be generalities made but like it's. She basically told us by saying that it's okay to have sexual feelings. It's okay if you are more sexual than men. It's okay that women are not submissive. It's okay. And I just. That was one of those moments where we were like, yes, like, okay, we get it. And it just was like a good, A good little thing we needed in our backpack to get us through high school and you know, throughout our marriage and stuff. So.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Shout out to unnamed leader.

Carah Burrell [01:10:40] Yep. Leave a wink in the comments.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] Other big testimony.

Carah Burrell [01:10:46] So that was, that was a great thing where I just. I think so much of people's testimonies quite honestly is just rooted in thinking that the people, their leaders are just really good people, not wanting to disappoint them. And if I look back, that's probably more what it was deep down and. But I remember sitting in like the Joseph Smith movie in. When they had that in the theater right after it came out and I was like 16 and the visitor center or whatever. Yeah. Profit of the restoration.

John Dehlin [01:11:15] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:11:15] Which hopefully me and Zelf are gonna do a like a full length like watching the movie like Mystery Science Theater style and just riff. That's my greatest dream. I've been waiting my entire life for that to happen as I. Because I remember watching this movie at 16 years old and it ending with like Emma waving goodbye to Joseph on his horse. And like I just remember like I didn't. I knew that Joseph was a plygmas. But I didn't know very much. But I remember being like, that's not how it went. Like, people weren't just mad at him because of his new like, Bible or whatever. I was like, they. I was like, polygamy had a part. I was like, I don't. I remember thinking about that had something to do with it. And. And the movie ended and I was like stone cold sober. And I looked to my left, I looked to my right and. And everyone in my young woman's are all bawling with tears. And I'm like, oh, no, they're stupid. I'm a smart person and they are dumb. Because that was propaganda. Oh my God. And that was definitely like, I rationalized it at the time thinking like, oh, well, they have to do this. The church has to do this. Because they don't want to like, get into the nitty gritty details. They just want it to be like, you know, a nice fluffy story. But I'm like, I'm too smart for that. I should have like, kept going with that. I should have looked for that more of like, where else is the church lying to me? Because they're just trying to like keep people in. So. So that was one of those things where I was like, I'm recognizing some propaganda here. I'm recognizing that. And when I started my Tick Tock channel too. Speaking of testimony breakers, my. I have a sister. I have two. Both my sisters are ex Mormon, but they are both very different. And the one that kind of raised me, her name is Bethany. So Bethany said to me, she's like, oh, you're studying. She found out the content that I was making about Mormonism and stuff. And she literally jumped right to. She knows me so well. She's like, like, oh, is this to spite your leaders when you were 15 and they didn't accept your script? Cuz we wrote like a movie for a youth conference. So when I said I have nothing but good things to say about my ninth word, a different set of leaders, a different set of leaders that I did not respect were in charge of overseeing a movie that the youth were supposed to produce for youth conference. And I was in charge of writing the script with my friends. And it was the funniest thing you've ever. It was, was delightful. It was hilarious. And they hated our script. They threw it out and they like Mickey Mouse changed everything around. And me and my friends were so mad that we didn't even show up to the release of it.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] Because you were offended.

Carah Burrell [01:13:38] And I was offended at their Lack of respect for my comedic abilities pretty much. And it was, it was such like, torture having to like, have anything to do with this video. And I always. And it was just like a satire of Mormonism kind of thing. It wasn't even offensive. It was just like a bunch of newscasters making jokes about. It was supposed to be a topic was like gratitude or whatever. And I. It was just funny satirical things. Like a newscaster going, oh, wait, did this just in the church is true. Anyway, our top story, I was like, that's great. My. My leaders. Like, that sounded sarcastic. And I'm like, duh, it's funny. Like, come on. Even as 15, I was like, oh, no. Know, church leaders are not led by God if they do not recognize me and my friend's talent here writing this script. So my sister knew immediately. She's like, you're mad because you never got to like, fulfill your dream of satirizing Mormonism. And I was like, this is true. I like, have so much pent up things I want to talk about, so.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] But the irony is that you end up being a propagandist for the church. Like just in a. In a matter of five or so years, you're going to be helping run PR in la.

Carah Burrell [01:14:48] Stick the knife in and twist it, John. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] Okay. So anything else about your teenage high school years before we move to your marriage?

Carah Burrell [01:14:59] Yeah, I was just like, really loud and obnoxious. It's pretty much sums up everything and.

John Dehlin [01:15:06] But you had a testimony.

Carah Burrell [01:15:08] Yeah, I definitely had a testimony. I definitely loved. I love seminary. Like, I went on my way to. I actually signed up for early morning seminary instead of release time seminary my senior year. So my senior year I was going to early morning seminary when I should have been just sleeping in till noon and going to like fourth period. I did not do that because I actually wanted to be in seminary with people who paid attention and like, had important things to say. I even thought I wanted to be a seminary teacher at one point. That's another thing I just remembered that I'm scared to admit. So imagine that. It's so much of Mormonism is like talking about things that you don't even know what you're talking about. Right? Like, what did I want to be a seminary teacher for? Like, I didn't even know that. You don't know what questions to ask sometimes. Like, it's embarrassing. So, yeah. And then I graduated in 2007 and I hated college. And I was like, I.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] Where'd you go?

Carah Burrell [01:16:00] I went to UVU for a Year and again, like I took like four institute classes that first year, like two a day because I just love, loved learning about the gospel kind of things and I loved just having discussions. And I think that still carries over. Like I still like talking with people about their ideas about things. I want to know, like, what do you believe? Like why do you believe these things? And I think once you're so, you're so zone nar, your, your worldview is so narrow when you're Mormon that you're like, oh, this is the truth now I want to learn everything about the truth instead of taking a step back and like a thousand foot view to be like, is it even the truth? Because this technically was a religion that was handed to me at birth. Let's think a little bit more critically before we like just absolutely decide this is true and dedicate our life to it. So I unfortunately was on that path of just like, if this is the true thing, I'm going to take four seminary or I mean two, four institute classes and because I want to learn everything about it. And then, yeah. So I really, I, I think college was so boring. You graduate high school and you're just like, oh, the world is my oyster and you are so disappointed that now you have to. College is infinite. Was infinitely worse than any high school boredom that I felt. So I just got into nannying and I made way better money nannying, doing that and then took a stand up comedy class when I was like 18, I think. Yeah, 18 or 19 is when I started. 19, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] Did you have ins. Did you have comedians that you loved growing up? Did you have a passion for comedy growing up?

Carah Burrell [01:17:29] Yeah, definitely. Like I was raised on the Simpsons first of all. So I have every episode, season two through eleven of the Simpsons just like memorized backwards and forwards and Seinfeld and stuff like that. And then I think I got into like Sarah Silverman comedy. Again, not typical for Lynn Mormon, but I think I was pretty good about following most of the rules of Mormonism. The one rule I never really cared about was my entertainment and comedy because that's just like my sweet spot. That's my vice. So that's what took me down. Maybe that's my road out. Maybe. So I was. I would have watched not raunchier. I wouldn't have watched R rated movies, now that I think about it. But I was fine with listening to pretty raunchy comedy when I was Mormon. Yes. Oh, I can't think of anything else now because it was so Bo Burnham. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] Starting and Brian Regan and all that clean stuff.

Carah Burrell [01:18:25] Yeah, I think every Mormon listened to Brian Regan growing up for sure. But I wouldn't say that he was like, inspirational for me, particularly about what I wanted to do. Like, I like Sarah Silverman's style a lot more. And so again, like, my mom was super supportive in that way and she wanted me to do what she found was like my best talent. So she actually, like signed me up for the class and I started doing stand up comedy classes and then started performing at Wise Guys west valley.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] Really? With two other people, just single, young adult.

Carah Burrell [01:19:00] Yeah, like 19. I always like to say that I had braces my senior year of high school and my freshman year of college, which is the worst time to have braces.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] And.

Carah Burrell [01:19:10] But it all worked out because I met my husband at that comedy club. He was the MC of an open mic. So my husband Aaron was the MC while I had my braces off for like two weeks. So I was like, confident. Walk into a club. I'm pretty much the only girl out of like, you know, probably 40 men in this club. And yeah, and then it was love at first sight pretty much from then on.

John Dehlin [01:19:33] And what were your, what were your bits about when you were doing comedy at Wise?

Carah Burrell [01:19:37] Oh, the first joke I ever wrote was actually a Mormon one. I think my first joke I ever wrote was, was, why is everyone so obsessed talking about the Second Coming when we all know the sequel is never as good as the original? But I'm. And I knew it was good because I went downstairs and I told it to my mom, again, very Mormon, and she was like, yes, that's great, that's hilarious. And stuff. So I was all over the place with jokes, though. Like, I was absolutely all over the place with random, random, random jokes and, and looking back, like, you just kind of, when you get into stand up, you just kind of need something as filler of something to say because you have to just kind of like feel your way around how to perform on a stage. So, yeah, my jokes are not like repeatable worthy, but they were good for getting me used to being on the stage and being around other comedians and integrate myself into the scene there. So, yeah, just my third time that I ever went to the club was when I met my husband and I ran out of material. My first and second time I already performed all my material. Then my third time I wanted just to sing a song that I already wrote when I was a teenager called Textual Relations with an innuendo implied there. Textual, Textual Relations. So the leader that I Mentioned earlier, she was the one who gave me the idea for it. So she also more influential than she knows. So I sang this like, again, very heavy on the sexual innuendo song. It's like a Mormon 19 year old.

John Dehlin [01:21:02] Give us some lines from it.

Carah Burrell [01:21:03] Oh, remember, I can't do it under pressure, John. Wait for. I literally, I know the song backwards and forwards, but when you ask me, I'm like, oh, I'm drawing all blanks.

John Dehlin [01:21:14] You can weave it in.

Carah Burrell [01:21:15] Yeah, it won't. Okay. But yeah, so I performed this like heavy on the sexual innuendo song. And again, that same reaction. I was talking before, like, people loved it. It was super inspiring that I felt like I was finally good at something. And I had a lot of tension from the boys that night, but I had an. I was only. I could tell. You can tell like who's Mormon and not Mormon, you know, for most of the time. And so my husband Aaron, obviously I didn't know him, but like, there's a video of like the video of the first time I met him is on stage. It's on YouTube, like, of me shaking his hand as I walk on stage. Him introducing me to that first night. And we have like a banter back and forth where he's like hitting on me. So that's adorable. And because I still looked pretty young, he asked me, what high school do you go to? So he was like seeing if he's allowed to like flirt with me or whatever. And then I got his number from another comedian and then we just started dating pretty much right after that.

Meeting, Dating, and Marrying in the Church

John Dehlin [01:22:10] So when you, how long did you date before you guys got married?

Carah Burrell [01:22:13] Not long at all. Not even. Yeah. So we met May 2008. The end of May 2008. And our first date was like June 7th. And we'd only been just like messaging here and there, like through MSN messenger. I'm gonna throw it back to the, to the 2000s. Yeah. And we, yeah, our first date was like June 7th. And then I said goodbye to him. I was gonna go work at a summer camp for the rest of the summer. I was gonna go move to western Massachusetts to go work at a fancy pants summer camp. And I was leaving and he. We said goodbye and then he couldn't get enough of me. So then we hung out one more day right before I left. And then he kissed me. Woo. Scandals. My first adult kiss kiss, pretty much. And it was really funny dichotomy too, because I. I'm saying the word dichotomy enough. I need a new Word. Anyway, I, it was funny because it was like as a 19 year old Mormon girl, like my first kiss was like a big deal and I was leaving and I was saying goodbye to all my friends and I drove around all provo and said goodbye to my friends before I went to go fly out to work at the summer camp the next day. And I was telling them the story about like how I had my first kiss and it was just like. And all my friends are screaming as you do when you're like a giggly teenager basically. And then the next exact day, 24 hours later, I'm sitting on a tennis court with girls, forming a new group of friends with girls from all around the world. The counselors from this camp were all from all around the world and they have a different idea of what is interesting and scandalous. And my story was very boring to them. They were like, and what else? And their stories were like how they just like slept with a guy behind a bike rack on the subway station in the Netherlands, like as a 19 year old. And I'm like, wow, I am not understanding the culture you come from. So I had a gigantic culture shock of trying to understand how people could still be good people and not have any of the same standards or morals that I had. Like, that was a huge mind that I had to unravel that summer when I was at camp. But yeah, and then me and my husband, we pretty much didn't talk very much that whole summer because I was too busy sinning. The only sinning I did while I was Mormon was that summer because I could not, could not, I couldn't, I couldn't just stay in a one piece. I had, I went bikini. And that's how it goes. If anyone's Mormon watching this, they want to know how the secession goes. It goes. You wear Sarah Silverman and then period

John Dehlin [01:24:42] period songs at girls camp.

Carah Burrell [01:24:44] Yeah, I didn't feel guilty about that though. Sarah Silverman listening to, you know, a little raunchy comedy and then bikinis and then what was next? Oh, I didn't do anything too bad. I just drank and smoked weed. But girls camp? No, no, the camp, the camp that I worked at when I was 19.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] Oh, at that camp?

Carah Burrell [01:25:05] Yeah. That smoked weed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] Then yeah, that's not acceptable when you're a believing Mormon to be smoking.

Carah Burrell [01:25:12] I was like, you know what? Just it, we're just gonna have a wild summer a little bit. So I, I, I stayed good about half the summer. And then the pressure, I couldn't handle it anymore. But I learned. So I like everything important that you need to know about how to live life. I learned that, like, three months that I was working there, I learned about, like, everything that's important to life is, like, being good to people. Because I realized that when I got home, when I had, like, some repenting to do, I realized that I didn't feel bad about any of the stuff that I did. I didn't feel bad about the partying. What I really felt bad about was, like, when I was a kind of a. To people and I was like, in the popular group and people did horrendous. Actually, people did some really horrible things to me at that camp that showed me just how absolutely shitty people can be and not to trust people. But even the small things that I did of just people waiting for me out in the cold for way too long because I knew that they would because I'm like, they love me. I'm funny. I'm like, I'll. Then people will forgive me. And just being really inconsiderate. Like, I feel like my biggest sin that I've ever committed was being really inconsiderate of people's feelings. And that's the thing that haunted me. And nobody asks you to repent for that. Like, they want, like, a checklist of did you or did you not do these things? And that's where, again, I had another gigantic shift of, like, the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law of the way that I want to conduct myself with people. There are things that are more surface level problems that, yes, like, okay, to stay Mormon, it's not good to drink because then you fall into, you know, you're drunk and you. Like, I. Me and my friends at camp, we broke. Oh, no, I shouldn't say this. Okay, we broke something really expensive when we were drunk one night, like, and hid it from people. And we didn't fess up to the. That we did it. And, like, that I felt bad for. But nobody asks you that in a bishop's interview. Like, have you ever lied about something that you should fess up to? You know? And I realized that, like, I'm gonna need to even strengthen my relationship with God more at that point if I want to feel forgiven for these things, because the bishop's not going to understand where I'm coming from in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I did get back from camp and my husband was really disappointed in me because he was. He was Mormon. So when we were just like, just barely. Hardly even knew each other, really.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] Tell Them about the weed.

Carah Burrell [01:27:29] Yeah, I told him everything in a letter. We wrote. We wrote letters back and forth because I was just too busy. Like, phone calls weren't really a thing. And he was really, you know, disappointed when I told him the mischief that I'd been getting up to and stuff and because he wanted a, you know, good Mormon girl.

John Dehlin [01:27:45] Was he returned missionary?

Carah Burrell [01:27:46] Yeah, yeah, but he was in. But he was. No, he was in the comedy scene too. So you're always going to have a more nuanced Mormon who's in the stand up comedy world or any kind of creative space when you're a Mormon. Like, I think creative Mormons get it. So. No, he wasn't like too hard on anything, but he was just like, okay, because. Because I hope, like, you will, you know, because I want to. I want to be Mormon. Like, I want to raise my kids Mormon if we're going to keep dating. Like. And so I had a huge decision to make when I got back what I wanted to do because I was planning on moving to Arizona to, like, go to ASU and just like, all right, you know what? That was a lot of fun. Like, people are right. This sin is really fun. And, like, cannot, I cannot downplay how much fun that was. So I was kind of like deciding if I wanted to get married to my husband and get sealed in the temple and do the Mormon life or if I wanted to just kind of go off the deep end and go to asu, a party school, what would you do? So this is, again, huge. This was a huge testimony builder because as soon as I got back, I could not believe I was actually kind of scared of my husband. He was kind of like a little bit of a weirdo. Like, I wasn't sure if I liked him yet. Never told him that before. Hope he likes that. I just told him. I told this to thousands of people and I was a little bit. Yeah, I don't know how I feel about him. And I was. Was honestly surprised that I. We felt like head over heels in love immediately when we got back. When I got back from camp, I got back August 19th and we were engaged on September 7th.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] Oh, wow.

Carah Burrell [01:29:10] But he asked. So that's like two and a half weeks later he asked me to marry him. Like one week after, like August 19th. When you're just like spending every day together and it's not weird when you're a Mormon young couple to just spend 24 hours a day interviewing somebody about what they want out of life and all their goals of. So, yeah, I think because we fell in love so quickly and I had that image in my head again, that conditioning of, like, when I get married, it's going to be in the Salt Lake Temple to, like, a worthy priesthood holder. Like, that's the only image I had in my head of a healthy, happy, good life. And I wasn't. I didn't wanna. I was like, the world can't really offer me anything that happy, so. And my husband, still to this day, we have a very happy, healthy marriage. And, like, he made me so happy. I was just wanting. Wanted to be with him forever. And again, if you're going to get married or at least sleep with somebody when you're. When you're 19 and have Mormon parents, like, you kind of got to get married anyway. So we were very good throughout her engagement and got married December 2008. So within meeting him, within six months of meeting him, I guess we were married. So. And then. Yeah.

Marriage Expectations and the Temple Experience

John Dehlin [01:30:16] I'm curious, what. What was kind of the either explicit or unexplicit understanding of how your life was going to be? You know, there's always kind of like, in a Mormon marriage, it's really a threesome. And I don't mean that in a sexual way, but it's like you and Jesus or the church.

Carah Burrell [01:30:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] And. And it's. It's very conditional. There's kind of like this Mormon contract that you agreed to when you got married. What was the either explicit or. Or unexplicit agreement of what your life was going to be like when you guys got married?

Carah Burrell [01:30:48] Well, like, you were.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] Remember.

Carah Burrell [01:30:49] I mean, that's so funny you asked that, because I think for anyone who goes through the temple, there's like, before you went to the temple, then after, like, yeah, I would have said, all right, I'm getting ready to go to the temple. I want to be a very active. If this is the true church, I want to be extremely active and raise our kids this way and have fam. Home evening and scripture study and be a really faithful. And make sure. I was absolutely one of those people who believed, like, the healthier your marriage, if you want a healthy marriage, you need to have the Lord involved as much as possible. And I think there's a lot of really healthy things that can happen in that, too. And people, you know, try to be as Christ, like, as possible. I think there's obviously a lot of healthy aspects of trying to be more like Jesus in your marriage that I think, you know, helped us. But I remember the. The before and after of going through the temple of, like, yeah, I'm dead set on doing this. Oh, no. I have to do this all the. I have to go through this ceremony all the time. This is what it means to be an adult in the church, is I have to go through this. This endowment and do these rituals. And I just. It crushed me so much. How boring, how culty, how not spiritual. How, like, gaudy. I don't mean that like God. I mean, like, gaudy and like. Like, I didn't feel comfortable sitting inside a temple that was like this and beautiful, like gold on everything, on every surface room. I just didn't feel like the true church anymore after that. I felt so uncomfortable in the temple in every way, shape and form that you could think of. And I think that really crushed me. And I. I probably.

John Dehlin [01:32:25] What parts?

Carah Burrell [01:32:28] One, being really shocked that handshakes are a way that you get into heaven and that God cares about that because, again, I was so raised on having a relationship with God. And why would God care? Why does he need all of this stuff? Like, I thought, he knows my heart. Why do we need to get a new name? What is this movie that I have to watch over and over again? Is this supposed to be a literal. Like, are you telling me this literally happened, this conversation between Satan in Jackson County, Missouri? Just, like, the. The literalness I had to confront, like, what are we talking about here, Mormons? Like, what are we doing? And I was so shocked. And I remember on the car ride home with my mom after I went through the temple, asking her, so, like, where can I learn more about what I just experienced? Like, where can I learn more about the temple ceremony? And she was confused. She was like, what? What do you mean? I was like, I don't know what any of that meant. Where it came from. Like, especially where it came from. I wanted to know, what was that? Like, temple prep obviously does nothing. And she's like, huh? No, it's just like, you go a bunch, and then you just, like, find meaning in it. And I'm like, I would rather die, like, than do that again. I didn't say that.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] But the feminist stuff, bug. You like hearkening to your husband?

Carah Burrell [01:33:36] No, because you. There's. You can reinterpret that stuff in your brain all the time. I made sense of it by just saying to myself, like, well, my husband loses his authority over me the second he is not in line with what God wants him to do. Obviously, there's a lot wrong with that, but that's how I interpreted it at the time. And it didn't bother me that his priesthood power just like, Like a superhero who, like, lost their ability to fight crime immediately once. Like, they have, like, the kryptonite. That's kind of the immature view of the priesthood power and the way that authority works. So, no, that didn't bother me.

John Dehlin [01:34:11] What about the washing and anointing?

Carah Burrell [01:34:13] I actually really liked that. I thought it was kind of like it was. I, I, I've only done it once the time that I went through. And I remember the lights were really dark. And I remember it was, like, really meditative. And I didn't mind that at all. I liked, I liked ceilings. I felt like, close to God and to this, to the spirit world when we did ceilings. But I dreaded doing endow sessions over and over again. I even got a horrendous bloody nose in an endowment session once. And there's nothing like the panic attack that ensues after you're just gushing blood and you literally can't even raise your hand. Like, what kind of cult is that where you're so scared to raise your hand to ask to go to the bathroom? When I'm covered in blood during an endowment ceremony, I have blood all over my hands. And I still didn't say anything. That's how much, like, cult mind controller is. I swear. I was like, that's good evidence that there's something wrong where you are afraid to leave and upset anyone. And I shook the lady's hand in one of my, in the session. Blood all over my hand. Nobody cares. Like, nobody's asking questions. Like, that was. Anyway, it was, that was the most traumatizing experience was my bloody nose endowment session. But other than that, yeah, it just

John Dehlin [01:35:18] didn't have a good temple experience.

Carah Burrell [01:35:20] No, it was something I always dreaded. And I was always really upset that there was no way to understand more where this came from. My mom just, like, shot down that idea.

John Dehlin [01:35:28] And you had no idea that it came from the Masonic.

Carah Burrell [01:35:31] No, no, I. Everything I heard that, and I assumed that it was a lie. I do remember hearing that There's a famous YouTube video, a viral video of two missionaries coming up to, like, a couple black gentlemen in a parking lot. And they're, like, trying to talk to this guy, and he's just, like, spitting Bible verses at him, and he's like, did you know that Joseph Smith stole everything from the Masons? And this, like, little weird missionary just doubles down and he's like, I know the church is true. I know. And then his companion's like, hey, dude, knock it off. So I watched that video when I was, like, a teenager, and all it made me think was just like, wow, wow. People just think the craziest things about us. Like, you just don't actually think they maybe have a point to anything.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] So you were inoculated a little bit.

Carah Burrell [01:36:13] Yeah, I just. Anything. I had this really stupid thought in my head that anything that anyone has that's negative about the church, church was just somebody who wants to tear it down, and so therefore they're a lie. Yeah. John, I haven't even told you the story about how I started a brand new journal that is still, like, when I was. When I went through my Jesus freak phase. Like, it was one of those things that I would have taken this journal and my scriptures of my house was burning down. Like, this journal was so important to me, had all my spiritual thoughts in it and. And notes that I took from listening to different, like, podcasts and stuff. And the very first thing in the journal was like, oh, I've heard good things about Mormon stories in John de Lin. And so I just turn on an episode, and it was actually an episode about sexuality, and I really liked it. And I took down a bunch of notes, and then as I filled up that journal, I was like, oh, John de Lynn, the apostate is. His name is at the very top of my journal when I open it up every time. I don't want Apostate's name in there. And I actually ripped out my notes from your really good podcast because I didn't want somebody to find it and be like, Carah's like, she's, you know, hobnobbing with John de Lin and his podcast now. And now look at us. But yeah, that's how.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] What year would that have been about?

Carah Burrell [01:37:19] That was. I'll tell you the exact year. 2011 or 2012.

John Dehlin [01:37:25] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:37:25] 2012. Yeah, 2012.

John Dehlin [01:37:28] Eight or nine years ago.

Carah Burrell [01:37:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:30] Married by that point.

Carah Burrell [01:37:31] Yeah, we got married in 2008. So we're a long time now. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] Okay, so. So. But your bet. But your bad temple experience didn't. Didn't really shake you enough to kind of cause you to seriously doubt your faith yet.

Carah Burrell [01:37:46] No, it just depressed me that this whole thing that I'd been and hoping was going to be great and this beautiful buildings and, like, the way we talk about the temple is just like the pinnacle of being a Mormon. It was so let down. Yeah. Just filled with nothing but disappointment. I think I just associate the temple with, like, guilt that I didn't feel what everyone else was talking about, which I later found out when you're allowed to talk about it, people actually were lying. You know, like my sister was super, super Mormon, super tvm, served a mission, super faithful. And she always, she tells me now like, yeah, I totally lied. Like I said that I, I loved it and I got so much out of it. She's like, I was lying. So take what people say with a grain of salt.

Moving to LA, Nannying, and Life Outside Utah

John Dehlin [01:38:30] How Tell us about, I guess you guys end up moving to la.

Carah Burrell [01:38:34] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:35] Do anything you want to talk about your, your marriage before moving to la and then let's hear about la.

Carah Burrell [01:38:42] Yeah, my temple. I have, I, I don't know. I try to compartmentalize how I feel about our wedding because obviously as an ex Mormon now, I know a lot of people get upset thinking about all of the things that their wedding could be and that it wasn't. And I was so happy to get married. Like the amount of in love these two young kids that we had, just so starry eyed, just so excited to start our life together. I, I have to kind of still just be like, that's all I cared about. I care about that now. I cared about it then, like I didn't care about the way that most of you know, my friends weren't able to attend. I don't care that we had our reception in like an ugly gym. I don't care that I don't have any good pictures or that it was on a cold December day. I think then and now, like I just look back at my wedding as what a wedding should be like. All that matters is I was really happy to be marrying a really good guy and I know people will shoot down quick engagements and things and there's good reason to do that. I am definitely pro getting to know somebody and committing to them and making that commitment last. And you know, marrying somebody immediately after marrying them, immediately after meeting them is not always the best way to do that. I totally get that. But with my circumstances in my, my life and the way like I was saying that I was conditioned and just meeting another comedian who was so on my level, who had a similar childhood, like it was exactly what I needed. And my mom, um, when I got back from camp, my mom just, she actually stole my journal when I got home. I was super independent and super self confident when I got back from camp and she was like, something's up with Carah, Let me see. And so she stole my journal, read everything that I did at camp. That's where my journal writing the Mormon Church. Oh, you'll you win this one. Told me to journal so often that it actually was my downfall because, yeah, my mom read everything that I did in my journal and confronted me about it and wrote a letter to me. Again, not the healthiest thing my mom has ever done. She does some other good things. I don't want to, like, totally rag on my mom, but this was devastating. And she told me that she knew everything that I did at camp and pretty much just tried to drag me to the bishop, which is the most unhealthy thing that could ever happen. So. Yeah. And she also stole my. Stole my laptop because I was getting too independent. I don't know how that connects, but she stole my laptop and told me that a robber came in and took it. And because I, like, had this repentance process that I was going through, she wrote three separate letters to my husband telling him to go find somebody better than me, than her own daughter because he was like a priesthood holder and my daughter is trash, basically. She wrote him three separate letters. And I actually have two of them. I threw away one, but I still have them hidden in a box somewhere. And. And then I obviously hated my mom throughout my engagement through this three months before I got married. And I, like, committed to getting married in the temple. But I, like, was still really angry at her. So I went through. When I. When I actually went through the temple right before it, my mom sat me down in her bedroom and showed me the temple clothing. Here's. That's actually kind of a funny story. Like, I saw the temple clothing before I went through because my mom's like, some people are a little bit shocked by this. I just want to show it to you. And she laid out and it like went over my head. Like, I didn't believe that I would be wearing that. I, like, thought like somebody else. I didn't. I did not understand what would be going on. And she even said to me, she's like. And also there's this thing called the prayer circle. And you know what? You're. You're not actually allowed to have any ill wheel, feel ill will or negative feelings towards anyone in the circle. So I know we've been fighting a lot. So she just point blank told me, you need to forgive me right now before you go through the temple. And I was like, oh. And I literally was like, okay. And I rolled my eyes. I was like, anything to get me away from you and on my own path out of life. So I say that all of that sorry for on my Mom a little bit. She has a lot of great qualities. But if people can see like. Like, people who come from that type of situation and get married early, that was the best thing for me. And so I hope people don't knock that I got married early if I don't knock what they chose in life, because that's exactly what I needed for that life. And it worked out. Again, doesn't work out for everyone, and I'm very sorry for that. That's exactly what I needed. And my husband and I just have enough unique personalities. Enough, you know, different. Different uniqueness of the way that we were. Were comedians and Mormon that, like, I think we really gelled well from the early times. So. Yeah. And then we basically.

John Dehlin [01:43:23] Your husband rescued you from your mom.

Carah Burrell [01:43:25] Yeah. Your family, and he's, like, six years older than me. Like, just imagine, like, getting out of high school, not even liking college, and then you meeting a man who, like, knows how to pay taxes and, like, buy a car. And just, like, he already had his life set. He was already 25 or. Yeah, 25 when we got married. He just. He had his life together. And I was like, that sounds so much better than figuring out how to do all of those things. And so it was. I hitched my star to that wagon, so my wagon to that star.

John Dehlin [01:43:54] How long did you guys last in Utah before you moved to LA?

Carah Burrell [01:43:58] Oh, so we moved to LA in 2011. So the way that it works at, like, most comedy clubs, like in, like, at Wise Guys, they'll be like a different comedian that'll come through and do like, five shows a weekend, and then one MC will get paid to, like, drive them around and host the show and kind of get things set up. So Tig Notaro was on the Sarah Silverman program, which was my favorite show, and I was like, oh, Aaron, Tig is coming through. Make sure the MC that weekend so that you can host and we can get to know her because she's hilarious. And if anyone doesn't know Tig, they should look her up. She kind of looks like Tom Cruise. She's very hilarious. Super, like, deadpan, sarcastic lesbian comedian who in 2011 was pretty much the only thing that she'd really done that I think people knew her for was maybe the Sarah Silverman Program, which wasn't even a very big show. But since then, she's, like, had her own show on Amazon prime and done an HBO special on all kinds and has a documentary that my husband is in on Netflix. It might still be on there, actually, and has Done a bunch of other cool stuff since then. So. So in 2011, we hung out with her one night, just like, talking for hours in our car and really hit it off with her here in Utah. Yeah. When we were driving her around and stuff. And so she took a liking to us. And then a few months later, we checked in with her because she said that she was going to have some projects coming up and was like, intern is kind of the word that we used. Intern is just like, not the way that you think of the word intern. Like, especially in, like, Hollywood. It's pretty much like, you're gonna work for me, we're gonna do things together. We're gonna. You're gonna help, like, keep. My husband helped with her podcast eventually, but it's not going to pay very much or at all for the first year. So my husband was kind of just. We moved out there. Let's see, like, May 2011.

John Dehlin [01:45:50] To LA.

Carah Burrell [01:45:50] To LA. To go work with Tig. And I was able just to, like, pick up nanny. Another great thing about the church again is my very first Sunday, the. The bishop's wife came up to me in my Santa Monica ward, another great ward with fabulous people that I love with all my heart. The bishop's wife walked up to me and she's like, hi, so I heard you're a nanny. Do you need a job? Oh, you do? Here's a family that's perfect that you're gonna fall in love with. And then she gave me my first job the first Sunday that I worked in there. And I had a fabulous nanny career in LA after that. So I was like. I was again, like those testimony builders of those. The. Of the church when they're.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] That's a real benefit, really good church. The network is a real benefit.

Carah Burrell [01:46:28] Yeah. So. And then my husband, he was on her podcast. It's called Professor Blastoff. So three main comedians on the podcast, and my husband was like, the side kick over here that they would kind of make fun of, and he would do different projects and stuff. And then eventually the podcast became so popular that they toured around the country and did different shows and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:46:48] So what's the name of the podcast?

Carah Burrell [01:46:49] Professor Blastoff Off.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:46:51] So David Hunsberger, Kyle Dunnigan, Tig Notaro, Aaron Br. So they were a good, good little troop. Their podcast actually went to number one at one point, too. So that was exciting times. And then Tig's career kind of took off from there. And I wish so badly that I could go back and have that same life again. And the three years we spent in LA not being Mormon, it's like all of the parties that we were at that sober, like, all of the people we talked to, we were just so, you know, just too buttoned up. Like, not very fun, not very good

John Dehlin [01:47:25] partying with comedians that listeners would know about. Or.

Carah Burrell [01:47:28] Yeah, I will. I. I'll try to resist, like, name dropping or anything, but, like, name drop, please.

John Dehlin [01:47:32] No. Unless you don't want to.

Carah Burrell [01:47:34] Trying to remember the most, like, meaningful ones. Oh, one really funny time was I. I love. So Garfunkel and Oats are a comedian duo that write songs. Kate Micucci and Ricky Lindholm. And they actually came through Wiseguys the week before we moved down there. And I knew that Tig and Garfunkel Notes, I know that these ladies, I knew that they knew each other in the same social. Again, Tig has, like, the best group of friends in la. She has a really good group of just the coolest, funniest comedians. And so I knew that Garfunkel Notes were in her group of friends. And when I met them and we were hanging out in the green room at Wise Guys when Garfunkel Notes came through town and getting to know them. And again, like, the only thing people sometimes that aren't Mormon, that really want Mormon Mormons around for is like, tell us all of the stupid things that you believe. We were just talking to them about Mormonism about, like, our mission. I remember we were talking to them about missionaries and how they go door to door knocking. And they were like. I was like, that is the least of your worries about the things that Mormons do. But anyway, and I was telling them, like, yeah, we're actually moving down next week to go work with a comedian. And then they're like, who do we know him? And I was like, take Notaro. And they, like, lost their. At us. They were so excited. And then we became, now, I wouldn't say good friends, but, like, my husband worked and did, like, personal assistant stuff for them. And like, I saw them at parties a lot and super, super nice girls, super funny girls. And again, it's really awkward, though. At these parties, people just want you to be like, ask you two questions, like, oh, you're Mormon. What do you think about the Book of Mormon musical? And then, like, you give your spiel about your opinion. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:06] Are you Amish?

Carah Burrell [01:49:07] Yeah. You give, like, the standard rebuttal to things. And then people are like, okay, now you're weird. And then they don't really want to talk to you. So, again, I wish I could go back. Back and party and be like, I'm actually funny sometimes, you guys. We all be friends. So. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then that was. What was crazy is you have these ideas and dreams in your head of, like, I started sitting at 18 at UVU, bored out of my mind, listening, like, in between classes, watching Sarah Silverman videos, taking notes, writing jokes. And then from 2008, nine, 10, three years later, I'm sitting in a green room of, like, Conan o' Brien hanging out with Sarah Silverman.

John Dehlin [01:49:50] I'm like, literally, Conan o'. Brien.

Carah Burrell [01:49:52] Yeah. I mean, Tig was on Conan o' Brien enough that we would go backstage and hang out. So I don't want to, like, name drop and be too awkward about it. But, like, I. Me and my husband, the reason why we, like, fell in love was our mutual love for Conan o'. Brien. So it was like this great moment of, like, synergy. Like. Like, my husband and I. And Tig. Tig was performing on Conan o' Brien a bunch of times. Anytime she went again, my husband was like, her friend and also did personal assistant work for her. And just kind of wherever my husband went, that was cool. I would, like, tag along with my husband. So I don't wanna act like I worked my way in any of these places with my comedic stylings. That's not the picture I wanna paint here. But still, just being like, all right, I'm sitting on the same couch as Sarah Silverman now. All right. Like, that three years ago, I would not have dreamed that, like, this reality would come. I also like to joke that pretty much any hero that I've ever had of anyone that I've looked up to, I have met before. So, John, welcome to the club. You're now gonna be on my. My trophy wall. So things just happen to manifest for me sometimes when without even. Honestly, even like, trying. So, yeah, those are good times. Really good, Tig.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] So for those who know Louis ck, really controversial comedian that got himself. Me too. A little bit. A lot of bit. He. He was. He was related to Tig, right? Was. Was he?

Carah Burrell [01:51:13] Oh, yeah. There's, like, a whole lawsuit that I think she had to file against him.

John Dehlin [01:51:18] He was abusive to her, right?

Carah Burrell [01:51:20] Yeah, I believe so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:21] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:51:22] That happened after we moved away, so. But, yeah, I do believe so.

John Dehlin [01:51:27] Yeah. So you would have met him too, right?

Carah Burrell [01:51:29] Yeah, I met him. I shook his hand, and I immediately was like, I'm gonna go wash this now, because you just told, like, 50 minutes of masturbation jokes. And it's very awkward. But yeah, I get.

John Dehlin [01:51:39] I mean, I guess the comedy business can. Can be seedy. It can be kind of gross or abusive. Right?

Carah Burrell [01:51:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:45] Did you guys see that too? Or were you sheltered from that?

Carah Burrell [01:51:49] Yes and no. I mean, the worst. The worst. Some of the worst people in comedy are just club owners that, you know, are really underhanded with the way that they take profits. That's probably the worst thing that like really upset my husband that it's difficult to sometimes get gigs because the comedy club owners, they have their favorites and they play the game that they want to. They do. And so for most comedians, I think they are, it's still a stepping stone. Like I think Brian Reagan has said, like, he doesn't want to move on to other things. Like comedy is his medium. That's what he likes. I did comedy. Like I did stand up. It's not like my favorite medium. It's like my least favorite honestly to express myself. What I'm doing right now on TikTok is literally the dream of exactly what I would want to do. Like being able to write something myself where I don't have like a council of people. I have to like, I can write something, think of it, record it myself, act it out and put it up. And it's all like downfall or glory, whatever it is, is just right here on me. Like I hold all the responsibility to it and then. Then stand up. You have to spend so much time just hanging out in clubs. So again, that's another very non typical Mormon thing because clubs are so. Clubs are so filthy. Like the filthier. Like I wouldn't watch like raunchy orated movies like Judd Appatown movies I wouldn't have watched when I was Mormon. But you're so desensitized to like comedy, like stand up comedy is so many, so many raunchy jokes and that you just become kind of accustomed to that after a while. So again, that's another very non stereotypical Mormon thing to be able to you. Yeah.

Supporting a Spouse's Career and Doing Church PR

John Dehlin [01:53:24] It's probably worth noting that your husband was able to do these cool things with Tig because you were financially supporting him. Actually.

Carah Burrell [01:53:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:33] With the nanny stuff.

Carah Burrell [01:53:34] Yeah, let's always bring that back. I lived one mile from the beach, Santa Monica Boulevard, 11th street in Santa Monica. Got my husband, like he was able to quit school to go move down. They were so excited. We're like cold Utah winter. We moved and I was able to quit my job and it was a nanny job that I was had in Salt Lake But I wasn't loving it. So we were able to quit school, quit our jobs and then move to the beach and start our new exciting life down there. It was like everything. It was really good and yeah. And that I was able to make good enough money being a nanny. And I think another thing that like Mormonism really helped me with is I was really good with kids and work. I was really good at talking to people. I don't think people were used to self such self confident girls in their young twenties that can go into a job interview and just crush it. Just know exactly what to say. I had good, you know, like personable skills. Especially where like I knew how to run a household in that way. Like I could put my brain inside what this mom is thinking of how to run a household. And just I always said like in interviews that I think my best quality is like I have good instincts of how you want the house to run and just take that over and so you get enough. Good enough, you know, good stepping stones. Like I was getting paid really, really well by my third year that I worked there, there. And it was my favorite, favorite time of my life, literally was being able to nanny and stuff there. And I even bore my testimony and preached the gospel a little bit to my last boss. But I don't like talking about that because it's really awkward. But. And working with the sister missionaries down there.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] Non Mormon boss.

Carah Burrell [01:55:04] Yeah, my boss, my friend convert them. Yeah, that's my like, you know when people wear those shirts that are like sorry for what I said when I was Mormon. Yeah. That was like most of my time working for her, but like sorry for all that. The second I knew the church wasn't true, I literally texted her because we're still good friends. Friends. And I was like, hey, just letting you know that I'm leaving the Mormon church. And I know that you're probably really happy about that because you and your husband are atheists. And probably all the thought, always thought, the ranting that I did when about like how much I love my church. I just want to let you know I'm really sorry. I take it all back. And she was relieved. I think she probably follows me now, so. Hi. Hi. My favorite boss ever. Love you so much.

John Dehlin [01:55:42] So talk if you want talk about how you ended up kind of how your testimony progressed in la, but also how you ended up doing PR for the church in LA and yeah, like, and, and then so they wanted you to do and what you did for the church there.

Carah Burrell [01:56:02] So a lot of my Testimony I had was kind of at. Things really got like, kicked into overdrive, I would say, in about 2012, when my sister, my older sister left the church, who was really faithful. And I was so shocked. I could not believe that she left. And I don't know if it was because I wanted to get her back or I just wanted to make sure, like, I had a solid footing that that didn't happen to me. So I just, like, scared you. I was shocked. Like, I. I didn't. I was up all night crying. I had to miss work the next day. Like, it was. It was out of control how much, much it messed.

John Dehlin [01:56:40] Why? Why was it so emotional for you?

Carah Burrell [01:56:42] My sister and I are just best friends our whole life. We talk three hours a day on the phone almost every day, my entire life. Bethany. And she. It was so shocking. I had no warning either when she told me. She told me while we were backpacking with my other sister and we were in the middle of a, like, swimming hole in Yosemite and my older sister, who's not Mormon, like, took off her clothes to go jump into the. The swimming hole. And my other sister was just about to like, jump in with her clothes on. I was like, wait, what about your garments? And she's like, I don't wear garments anymore. I'm not Mormon. And I was like, no. No warning. Like, no warning at all that she wasn't Mormon. And I was speechless. Like, I could not.

John Dehlin [01:57:22] Did she say why?

Carah Burrell [01:57:23] She wouldn't. She didn't want to even explain it at that point.

John Dehlin [01:57:26] She didn't want to.

Carah Burrell [01:57:26] And again, this is somebody I talk to constantly say, I don't know. I honestly don't even know.

John Dehlin [01:57:32] You don't know why?

Carah Burrell [01:57:33] Why she didn't tell me? Yeah, that's a good question. I should probably ask her.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:57:38] But it was so shocking to my system that we actually. I was like, oh. And then we didn't actually address the issue until three months later because I knew it was going to be, I mean, again, no warning, like, so shocking to my system. So we finally had a three hour conversation and then I was up the entire night crying about it. That's how much the church meant to me. And I couldn't believe that she rejected it.

John Dehlin [01:57:58] It.

Carah Burrell [01:57:58] And I was like, if it's true, like, make it work. Like, just, you know, do what you got to do. Just make it work, dude. And could not. So I think I just kind of doubled down trying to figure out what I believed. And what was funny is what I found. I actually Had a family that I nannied for and they had, they were LDS and they had a gigantic library and they were moving. And so I said, can I borrow a bunch of your books? And I borrowed like Jesus the Christ and like the Great Apostasy and just so many books. Books. And I had eight months till they moved back, till I had to give them back. And I read as much of as many as I could. I won't say that I finished any of them, but I read as much as I could. And you know what I found, John? Tell me how absolutely stale and boring this apparently restored gospel is. I was shocked at how I was like, I am ready to hear. Have my. My heart is open. I want to learn, I want to absorb this stuff. And it was just so, just, you know, painfully, painfully boring and uninteresting the things that they were talking about in these books. And it's. If you can think of just like all of the most famous, you know, LDS books.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] Jesus the Christ.

Carah Burrell [01:59:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] Articles of Faith.

Carah Burrell [01:59:12] Right. Of just like all of those types of standard works. Yeah. And so what I found was like, I need to get back to basics. And that's when my Jesus freak stage started, which was a really good time that I really enjoyed. And I had to kind of make Mormonism work for me and I just really wanted to just expand. So I just started reading like Timothy Keller is like a famous. Call him, I would call him like a pastor. I started reading all kinds of books by different famous pastors and more ideas generally about Christian theology. And the painful thing now that I look back is like my cold hearted atheist self is like, why didn't I ask more questions about the Bible itself, of how we've even know that these things are true? That's like painful to me that I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] But that's a lot to unravel. You're unraveling Mormonism.

Carah Burrell [01:59:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:58] And unravel God and Jesus too, all at the same time.

Carah Burrell [02:00:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:01] I was your sister's laugh. That's traumatized.

Carah Burrell [02:00:03] I pretty much just like, I was like, okay, Mormonism. The. So much of it works for me. I don't have a strong testimony of the temple. I don't have a strong testimony of the Book of Mormon, but I think the people are good and the fruits are good from what I saw. And. But I really just had to continually work on just understanding what it meant to be like, have faith in Christ. So I really just doubled down in that area. And so anyone who know me during that phase, I only bore my testimony of Jesus Christ, and I was an absolute. So I had. I had one nanny job where I had 10 hours a day in a person's house five days a week, and for half of that time, the baby was sleeping. So I spent every hour that I had when I was nannying with my scriptures, with my books, with my podcast, just, like, taking notes and really wanting to understand. So they're actually. They're not technically podcasts. There would be, like, sermon series. There was a pastor named Kyle Idleman that I really loved, who actually was a hero of mine that I got to meet, which. That's another funny story. He's like, the pastor of this gigantic church in Louisville, Kentucky. And I really got into just more mainstream Christianity ideas that just.

John Dehlin [02:01:20] This is not a typical path. I just want to say this is not a typical path for, number one, Mormons and number two, Mormons who are confronted with the beginnings of a faith crisis. If anything, they go, like, Denver snuffer route or, you know, even closer into the church or they start leaving the church. But, like, going to evangelical sort of Christianity, that's not a typical move. So you win an award for being original.

Carah Burrell [02:01:44] Original, yeah. That's what I want to hear from somebody who's interviewed, what, a thousand.

John Dehlin [02:01:49] This is like, 1403 or something.

Carah Burrell [02:01:52] That's what I want to hear. I'm going to try to amp up the originality now. Yeah, I got so much out of the. The exact thing that so many Christians hate Mormons for is, like, you guys are all about workspace. We're gray space that. I really loved listening to people talk about grace and how much God loves me unconditionally. And, um, I still believed in the structure of the church a hundred percent, and, like, the word of wisdom. And I obeyed everything. And I. I really believed that, like, my favorite scripture. Was the scripture about when Jesus leaves. Was it like John 16, I think, where. When Jesus leaves and he says, okay, well, I'm leaving. I'm gonna send the Spirit to be with you, with my apostles, with my followers. So. And I interpreted that as like, oh, my God, that's amazing that Jesus, even though he's God in the flesh and here on earth, he wants to give us the Spirit and that we can have the Spirit. We can have it as if he's right next to us, that he's His. Like the. The Spirit, the part of the Godhead, can dwell within us at all times. And I really believed that I could carry the Spirit with me and that that happened through following the rules. And I think that's another huge breakdown between Mormons and mainstream Christian ideas. Is I again, that really spoke to what I was about where it's like rule following. Yes. But like I want to have a relationship with God so much that he knows my intent and what's on my heart is that I really want to follow him and do what's right. And so anything that I did pretty much from that point forward in Mormonism, I did with like trying to follow Jesus, trying to do what I thought that was right again. So my world view is completely shifted now. And I don't think like, like propping up in an organization that has, could be interpreted a lot of their doctrines is like hate speech. Maybe that's not something that I like, I'm proud of anymore. But at the time, like I really thought that I was doing what Christ would want me to do, you know, So I really treasured my, my time with my scriptures and if anyone knew me, like I only bore my testimony about Jesus Christ and I really prided myself, myself, prided myself. Is that the right word on giving talks just about Jesus Christ and what it's done for me and the way that it's changed me. And I actually really, really loved working with the sister missionaries in, in LA that were in my ward and stuff. I even like learned how to sew so that I could sew them quilts for Christmas and have them over. Like they loved me. I loved them, I love feeding them. I loved going out to do missionary work with them. And I think every Mormon should go out and do missionary work to kind of see the inside of how missionary work. Because I never served a mission, I didn't actually see how it worked. And I'm like, oh, these are very lonely people and they are not really picking up any of the commitments or the theology or anything that we're talking about. You know, when people get, when people get baptized, no questions asked and it's kind of like, oh, okay, that's weird. So that was a really eye opening experience working with the missionaries and stuff. But, but just people like, I love the missionaries because all I saw was like people who were so Christ, like so devoted, so sacrificial. And yeah, that carried me for a really long time. I had a really strong testimony at that time.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] You know, sometimes you'd think that if somebody leaves or lose their faith in the church, for example, that it would just be this domino where like all the siblings fall and then all the parents fall and all the grandparents fall of Course, that's not how it works. And it's even more complicated because what you're communicating is what often happens, which is sibling A loses their testimony, sibling B becomes stronger in their testimony as a reaction to sibling A losing their testimony. Yours was the Jesus route, but it sounds like your Bethany's falling away actually made you more devoted to the gospel, not less. Isn't that interesting?

Carah Burrell [02:05:46] And it's because, I mean, this is a person that I know I'm going to see, I'm going to talk to all the time. And I want to be able to have really good insightful things. And I think maybe deep down it's like I want to be able to have wow her with my testimony, wow her with the spirit. She'll be like, she's missing out. And that'll be like the underlying theme of our relationship. My sister, she's absolutely on her own, like, spiritual route that is completely different than the one I'm on right now. So that was a failure here. But it's one path leads to another which leads to another. And I think that Jesus route that was really, that was really health healthy for me to recognize my own vices and what I wanted out of life. And those things are really a lot of the same things that are now, like me as a non religious person that are still, like, I still have a. The same things that I addressed when I was so Christian that like, God has put it on my heart, you could say in very Christian terms.

John Dehlin [02:06:45] That's such a Christian term.

Carah Burrell [02:06:46] Yeah. I used to say that to myself, like, okay, I am feeling that God wants me to devote more time to scripture study. And my biggest advice right now is when I get home from work, all I want to do is watch YouTube videos for five hours. I'm gonna go 30 days with no videos of anything. I'm gonna do nothing but scripture study for 30 days after I get home from work. And I lasted 15.

John Dehlin [02:07:05] So that's amazing.

Carah Burrell [02:07:06] Things like that where I wanted to feel. I really. And again, like, you had, instead of

John Dehlin [02:07:11] having masturbation shame, you had YouTube shame.

Carah Burrell [02:07:13] Yeah. Yes. So literal in that way that you combined those things. Yeah, literally. Like, I really was one of those people who, like, I thought that Christianity should hurt. And I still believe that, like, technically that's kind of what, like when Christ said like, hey, I want to be your follower. And he's like, well, that's dope. But you, you know that like, foxes have holes and birds have nests, but I'm the son of go. I don't even have a place to rest my head at night. I really believed that, that, like, to be a Christian should be to carry your cross, to be. To do the hard things and refine yourself. And I loved, like, I love doing like, a lot of our. Our ward in Santa Monica was formerly homeless people are just people who just don't have a lot in life or, you know, need rides to the bishop storehouse. And I loved feeling like, sacrificial that I could. Had a really easy community that loved me, that I loved back, that I could serve in constantly. Like, somebody's always needing something in our ward down there. And I always, I. I felt the spirit, you could say, like, anytime I did service for people, and those are still things that I want. Like, I still want the good endorphins of being sacrificial and doing hard things and helping people. So those are the beautiful parts of Mormonism that you have so many opportunities to help people. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:34] Yeah. So how'd you get into church pr? I'm. And what did you do for church pr?

Carah Burrell [02:08:39] So I always have to clarify that Church. Church PR officially is like, you know, the downtown church office building version of. Of pr. And then across the. Probably across the globe they have public affairs councils. So it's a branch of the. The PR department that is not paid. So everything I did was again, oh, no, I'm eating my own words because now I had a lot of stories service that I gave there. But yeah, we did things that I liked. Like, we did interfaith nights and like, did like a Ramadan breaking fast with, like a local mosque. And I've praised Allah at their mosque. So I've. Don't say that I just went straight from Mormonism to atheism. I have experienced praising Allah at a mosque once, and that was awkward. And because I wore a dress to the mosque that I shouldn't have worn, I guess apparently my Mormonism didn't tell me that I'm not allowed to wear things with slits in it. So that was a topic of conversation of the night, but that we did. I mean, I have a video about this, about how they explained in, like, our first interview.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] What's the role? Tell us what the role is.

Carah Burrell [02:09:46] Oh, the role of public affairs is to make inroads with opinion leaders in the community that you serve in that within your stake boundaries. So ours was like west la. So it honestly quite. It comes down to having people have a favorable idea of Mormonism. So when you need something from the community that you are buddies and they know the Mormon, they know the Public Affairs Council, and they also know who the stake president is and things like that. And if people, I mean, in good ways, like a lot of humanitarian efforts that we tried to advertise that, like, if you need something, the local authority is. The state is where you find us. But then when it gets right down to it, the church's ultimate goal is always missionary work, always expanding where they can build buildings and zoning things. And so they told us in our first meeting that a lot of. Because this was 2012 and Prop 8 happened in 2008, and they said that a lot of our job was going to be making inroads because of the bad blood after Prop 8 between a lot of, like, the liberal Southern Californians and Mormons. And so when we needed to build a. There is a building, the Mar Vista Building on Centinella, I think it is when they needed to build a parking garage there and the city council didn't want them to, or the zoning board, I guess. And so we needed to do as much as we could to have, like, a favorable view and stuff. So, like, we held. Held an, like an awards night for a local city councilman that was. That was gay. And I thought I was doing the right thing. And that is not quite how I feel about it anymore.

John Dehlin [02:11:30] But how do you feel about it now?

Carah Burrell [02:11:31] Oh, man, I'm too tired to really get into that. It's so difficult because this man is dead now, actually, and we want me in my body. If I put myself back in there, I. What I. What did I want to do out of that night? Like, I wanted to let him know that, hi, I'm Mormon and I'm not a bigot. And I'm really happy that you've served on this, the city council, and I'm really happy with the work that you've done. Please let it. As a token of my appreciation, let's hold this ceremony tonight. Like, my, My intentions were still, I feel like, in the right place. But your intentions don't mean when you're working for the Mormon Church, because what

John Dehlin [02:12:09] you're doing for the church is what.

Carah Burrell [02:12:10] Because what I'm doing for the church, what I'm making. Doing for the church is making. Making inroads that actively harm his community in the long run. There's no way of, like, of teasing out that, you know, the, the tsunami of hate speech and anti LGBT propaganda that swarms from the work that we do, the inroads we make just makes the Mormon Church stronger to be able to spread These hateful messages. So you again, when you're Mormon, sometimes you just see things through a little pinhole and you don't see the wider ramifications of the, the dogma and the propaganda and the things that the church perpetuates. So yeah, it's like you can be Mormon, you can be such a good person and you can really feel like you're trying to do the right thing, but it doesn't mean shit at the end of the day when you're working for the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] Basically, if I hear you right, and I don't want to oversimplify this or like just back on the church, but you know, first of all, Jesus said, you know, when you serve people, don't, don't even use your name. Like keep it secret and private. Don't blow your trumpet.

Carah Burrell [02:13:13] Yeah, I mentioned that.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] Advertise your Go, go ahead, talk about the video.

Carah Burrell [02:13:16] Oh if you want to finish what you're saying, if you remember that PR video that I did that was, went pretty viral, had some good success. When I talked about that, I think it's what like Matthew 6:1 or something is that scripture about that you don't go pray publicly in the streets because then your father in heaven can see that and you already have your reward which is your attention from people. That's exactly what PR for the church does. That is Our like implicit goal is to make sure that if we have humanitarian efforts going out that I was part of, oops, I was part of writing articles to make sure that and send those articles out to the different newspapers to see if they would publish them. So everyone knows that the Mormons are super cool dudes that are totally always helping out. You got your yellow vests on. We have photographers at every, at every event that we're doing and it sucks because you're kind of a pawn in their game. Like you like I really wanted to show that like yeah, Mormons are good people. Like I, I, so many of them are. They're just doing, they're trying to live by Christ's teachings in a lot of ways, maybe in a narrow minded way, but they're trying to do, yeah, you want a service project, you're going to get a bunch of Mormons out there helping but you're going to have, have them being followed around by with a camera and somebody taking notes and quotes to write an article about it. So yeah, it goes right. It really just felt so unchristian. And I'm in the middle of my very grace filled Christian Jesus freak phase. While having one foot in that and then one foot in Mormonism and feeling just so icky the more and more that we did.

John Dehlin [02:14:55] That did feel icky.

Carah Burrell [02:14:57] Yeah, yeah, it was. It was when I really put the two and two together, that. That this is, again, propaganda, kind of.

John Dehlin [02:15:06] Yeah. Because on the. On face value. Oh, it's a bunch of nice, shiny, squeaky clean, happy, go lucky Mormons helping people. Yeah, that's like, surface level. Then you dig one level deeper and you realize it's fundamentally unchristlike for Mormons to be intentionally wearing yellow vests so that they're based. The vests are basically staying. We're all Mormons. Mormons helping hands. We're all Mormons doing service in the community for the positive PR benefits that can come from it. That's fundamentally unchristlike. But then you dig one level deeper under that and you realize we had taken. Attempted to take marriage away from a sovereign state through Prop 8. We have been spewing hateful LGBTQ rhetoric. We, like, invaded California with phone banks.

Carah Burrell [02:15:51] And I'm so glad I was never part of that. So glad I. I was never part of that.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] Yeah. But, I mean, so many people were. And so we invade California to push our religious agenda on the people of California. Totally take away marriage from them, along with all the hateful rhetoric. And they're justifiably hurt by that and angry at us. And then we're going to use these unchristlike charity, quote, air quote, charity efforts. Efforts to try and gaslight them into saying, well, you think we're horrible, awful people because we did. We said. We say. We said and say did and do really horrible things for the LGBT community. But we don't want you to hate us. And we want to be able to do things with real estate and zoning laws, and we want favors from the community. So we'll do these unchristlike public charitable acts to try and hold awards ceremonies to try and manipulate your perceptions of us so that you think of us in a way that we aren't actually being or doing, so that you'll have a intentionally constructed false perception of us so that we can get our way. And when you look at it that way, it seems kind of pernicious and evil and yucky. Right?

Carah Burrell [02:17:11] You nailed it, John.

John Dehlin [02:17:13] Did I get it okay?

Carah Burrell [02:17:14] Literally, you nailed it. Exactly. Absolutely. There's so many things like when I had to give. I had to give speeches across my stake to just try to tell the. Tell the good people of my stake what we did and how they could get active with us and how, like, if you know an opinion leader that you think we should have contact with. And I went back into my email the other day and read my speech and I just wanted to punch myself in the face. It. It was so gross. And again, when you start out with the presupposition that the church is true, as I did, since I was born into it, and I don't think I should. I didn't question it as much as I should have. I never went through an entire deconstruction reconstruction, which I think, I mean, people, people usually only are religious because they're indoctrinated into it. So if I would have had a chance to maybe join it as an adult, I would have had a different opinion. But definitely the church was always true as the starting point, point. And then you can always be manipulated and manipulate others and feel comfortable doing it because it's for the true church. Like, at the end of the day, it's for the true church. Like, it's true. So why not? It's like, why don't we question that if, if it's even true to begin with? Like, it's. That's what's so difficult to even allow your brain to think. Because like I said when I was living in the student housing, it. What my world would have ended is why, like, my brain did not want to feel the pain to even allow myself to question. Because it KN the other side of that there would be just, would my marriage be intact? Would I have any friends? Would I have anything? So I'm.

John Dehlin [02:18:47] Would you end up like your grandparents or your parents, you know, before the

Carah Burrell [02:18:51] church go off the deep end or something? Would anyone accept me? So it's like you barely can even think those things because you're so. Yeah, you can't even think and actually deconstruct and analyze if the church is true. Honestly and objectively. There's no chance when your life depends so fully on it. So when people ask me sometimes in like live streams or DMS or whatever, whatever, how they should leave the church, if they should leave the church, just like, you know, and I always start off like, what's your situation in life? Are you a teenager where your life depends, your mental health depends on your parents and you getting along? Like, is it better to fake it till you have, like, your own financial stability outside of them? Because I don't know your situation. I don't know if your parents would literally kick you out of the house if you come out to them that you don't Want to be part of their religion anymore. Like, do whatever is most advantageous to your mental health right now. And that's kind of exactly what I lived. Like, as soon as I didn't need the church anymore, it just happened to not. Also, I also discovered it wasn't true. You know, like, I was in a place where my husband and I were separate from our family, living in our own house. We didn't. We weren't. Had. Didn't have close ties with the ward. We had bought a house, remodeled it or renovated, actually, and we never really got integrated into our new ward board. So, like, the community, the war, didn't really mean a lot to us that we had to then step away from. So it all just kind of came out how it was supposed to come out. So.

How Church PR Affected Her Testimony Over Time

John Dehlin [02:20:13] So are you saying that this public affairs gig did or did not strike a blow to your testimony? And. And either way, talk to us about from the time of your public affairs gig to you actually losing your faith. What happened?

Carah Burrell [02:20:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] So I.

Carah Burrell [02:20:30] That same video that I referenced before, around the Turning Heads thing. Yeah, the greatest Showman video. Um, I. I honestly, what's kind of funny is I literally forgot about the public affairs stuff for a long time, and I just didn't pay attention to a lot of stuff. And I remember where I was standing in my kitchen. It was like the way people feel about. You remember where you were on 9 11. I don't want to be insensitive, but it almost felt like that kind of gravity of a situation. I remember where I was standing. Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:56] Utah. Is this kind of California in Utah?

Carah Burrell [02:20:58] When. Hold on, I'll tell you. When I was listening to conference and when President Nelson gave his speech about the official name of the church and it being a win for Satan, it was. I was like, what? Because so much of my time working with the missionaries and doing PR was a push for the I'm a Mormon campaign, making sure that all the Mormons in the wards got registered on the I'm a Mormon website. Filled out a. A, like a profile and such a push, everything. I watched every I'm a Mormon video more times than I can even think of. Like, that was such a big deal at that section of Mormonism. And then the next thing I'm hearing is that that's a win for Satan and that any prophet that used to be the mouthpiece of God is an old loser because we're not using that word anymore. And I could not believe that that talk even, like, got through. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. And that was a huge wake up call. Like, a huge, huge wake up call.

John Dehlin [02:22:01] And people don't understand, like, so the Book of Mormon musical happens. The guys from south park along with the guy from Avenue Q make the Book of Mormon musical. It becomes this Broadway smash musical. The church has to have some type of public relations response. So in response, this is for all the never Mormons that have no idea what we're talking about. So in response, the church does this I'm a Mormon campaign campaign that they, by the way, they get from the Scientologists. So if you go back and if you Google I'm a Scientologist. And I talked to Mike Rinder of Scientology this morning. Yeah, yeah. He. He admitted that he helped create those. So the church steals a play out of the Scientology playbook.

Carah Burrell [02:22:40] Always a bad idea for a cult.

John Dehlin [02:22:41] Absorbs the I'm a Mormon campaign to respond to the Book of Mormon musical. So it produces like hundreds and hundreds of these videos where like, I'm a cool skateboarder and I'm a Mormon. I'm an artist and I'm a Mormon, I'm an actor, I'm an actress, and I'm a Mormon. And it's basically, it was this huge campaign that the church spent, not just tens of millions, probably hundreds of millions of dollars buying up, you know, the digital billboards in Times Square promoting the AMA Mormon campaign. This was all under pressure. Prophet Thomas S. Monson. Again, tens or hundreds of millions of dollars are investment in this campaign. And then Thomas S. Monson dies. Russell Nelson becomes prophet and immediately does this turnaround and tells the entire Mormon church that even to use the name Mormon is a victory for Satan. It's so weird. And. And for someone like you that was in public affairs pushing the I'm a Mormon campaign, promoting it everywhere, and then all of a sudden, see this turnabout. Number one, it was weird that more Mormons weren't disturbed by that. That alone should have caused this massive. How can you spend tens of millions of dollars of our tithing on an I'm a Mormon campaign on Madison Avenue and then turn around and say, to use the word Mormon is a victory for Satan. How can that prophet be wrong and this prophet be wrong? Right. That should have blown the brains out of most Mormons, but it doesn't.

Carah Burrell [02:24:16] That's me.

John Dehlin [02:24:16] When it's just like, oh, whatever you say, new prophet, whatever you say is true. Forget what the old prophet said. That's how we've been programmed. But you're saying that for You. It was actually a major blow to your face.

Carah Burrell [02:24:27] It's huge. Yeah, I'm surprised it's not more people didn't wake up and pay attention to that. And again, just like I was scared at the incompetence immediately. The first thing that came to me was like, oh my God. The incompetence of whoever let me this speech through because I can't be alone in this. And since obviously that I left the church, I found out that that was shout out to my friend Sam, Different Sam. He also said that he's like, I wish we had a funny chat about this. It's like, I'm so stupid. I wish that it was something like Prop 8. I think I was too young and dumb to really pay attention to Prop 8. That happened when I was like 18. I wish it was LTBTS. She was. I am so sorry that it wasn't something as is more obvious because I think you just compartmentalize. Like, the church is true and they're wrong on this. This issue, but they'll come around or whatever. Like, I wish it was something about women's rights or colonizing and all kinds of other things that they could really. You could really sack them for. I'm like, no, it was actually that thing that I participated in where I was in that thing. And it really meant a lot to me. And I loved, loved that. And then I was like, well, really offended how he, like, changed his mind. And I'm sure you know that like, that was like his. There's quotes of like Nelson saying that since the 80s or 90s that it was like his pet peeve.

John Dehlin [02:25:41] Right?

Carah Burrell [02:25:41] I was like, well, guess what? Your pet peeve just like led a flood of members to leave the church now because of that up. So.

John Dehlin [02:25:48] Yeah. Or did it. Did it really cause a lot to leave? I don't.

Carah Burrell [02:25:51] Well, let's just say it caused. It was a major problem for me and now I'm causing people to leave. So, like, you're the granddaddy of ex Mormonism. I am your grandchildren. You gave birth to Zelf. Zelf gave birth to me. And then I'm birthing my own babies of ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] It's this huge ex Mormon pyramid.

Carah Burrell [02:26:06] I can't wait. Yeah, I can't wait. One day I'll have my own stories. No, I won't.

John Dehlin [02:26:11] But you'll have your own grandchildren.

Carah Burrell [02:26:12] Yeah, I'll have my own grandchildren and have my own setup with this nice lighting, nice microphones. Be not as classy as this. We'll be Able to say the F word anytime we want on my part.

John Dehlin [02:26:21] Maybe it'll be better. Maybe it'll be better. Okay, so is there anything between LA and your faith crisis that's worth mentioning or should we just go right to your faith crisis?

The Faith Crisis and Unraveling the Church's Truth Claims

Carah Burrell [02:26:31] Yeah, I'm trying to think back that I cannot say like enough when I think back. And I'm trying to think back of memories, teenage, you know, a lot of like young adult la. It just is filled with a lot of positive memories because I think I'm an extrovert. And the church just has so many opportunities to be with people, to serve people, to have people laugh at my joke folks. It just. Yeah, I wish I could, I wish I could say more bad things about the church, but I'm like, it treated me well and like I was saying earlier, that kind of put blinders on me in a really negative way because I wasn't as open to hearing about why people left the church because I just, I couldn't even fathom people could have as bad of experiences as they've had. And then piece by piece it starts making sense that like I think the biggest one is children's rights is always like deep in my heart. And I could not, I could not be part of a church with what they did to Sam Young. And I think that actually realizing how much the church didn't give a. About the, the children's safety around that time, that was a huge blow I could not make right with a church that did that.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] Okay, so you were a believer when the same young thing happened.

Carah Burrell [02:27:45] Still was that 2018? I think so. I think so. Somebody asked me and I didn't actually pay a lot of attention to it, but it was a huge, huge self item. And now that I'm out, that's again, if I had to be a single issue lever it would have been that like it's just when the church shows its cards, any type of organization that is willing to make their, their authority supersede the rights and needs of children in that way way and not listen to the abuse stories and how easy it is for children to be taken advantage of. There's so many better ways that the church could function. And that's all I want now for the church is like please for the love, pay attention to these stories because the church is going to continue. Can we please end any practice that could put children in harm's way.

John Dehlin [02:28:31] So as I'm, you know, I've lived, I'm like 16 years, I'm 20 years into kind of Observing. You could even say I'm 30 years into observing the church kind of deal through these issues. But any one of these issues, whether it's Kate Kelly and ordained women or Sam Young or Jeremy Runnels or whatever, I'm thinking, well, this will be a big blow to the church and it pretty much never is. But, but yeah, as I was watching the Sam Young thing where all. And by the way, I grew up with Sam Young. He and my dad were business partners in Houston of all places. So Sam and I actually go way back. But, but when I'm watching Sam Young. Only for those who don't know who Sam Young is, Sam Young is this Mormon bishop who decides that it's outrageous that these Mormon bishops can sit alone in a room with a closed door and a 12 year old girl, ask her where she touches herself, when she touches herself, how often she touches herself, if she likes it, if she orgasms. You know, all the sexual explicit, explicit questions that Mormon bishops ask Mormon youth every single day.

Carah Burrell [02:29:35] What I was going to add, there's a viral video by a woman, she has like bright red hair, has, I don't. Millions of views, something ridiculous. And she actually said that she was 17 in her video where she had to tell her bishop everything, every detail. How many fingers, climax, everything involved. So it's, it is so I didn't realize how common it is too that, that a man could sit alone and with a woman that is almost an adult, still a child. Yeah, they can get into that kind of graphic detail. I, again, Bishop Oaks did not ask me that graphic of details. So I'm lucky for that. Just did not like my jokes. But.

John Dehlin [02:30:20] And then it's not just that, but it's also that the church has covered up just decades and decades and decades of child sexual abuse. Protecting the perpetrators and then telling parents and, and victims not to report to the police and not to get mad and not to prosecute. Protecting the perpetrators at the expense of abuse victims. The church and, and Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses and all the major cults have all done this. It's just what cults do for some reason when Sam Young leads marches, peaceful marches to encourage the church to stop this kind of behavior, the church excommunicates him. Okay. So anyway, just to give our listeners the background on what happened there. So you're still a believer when you're seeing this happen?

Carah Burrell [02:31:11] Yeah, again, I didn't pay attention to it very much at the. I was dodged it, which is weird because I was so. I was. It's one of those things where you know something's going to wreck your life and you're just like, that will wreck me having a testimony I'm going to immediately click off of and completely shut down that lane in my brain right now to never.

John Dehlin [02:31:30] It's called thought stopping.

Carah Burrell [02:31:31] Thought stopping. You know it, you love it. Yeah. And just I think is anyone who has a heart, you just start paying attention to the patterns of the ways that corporations act. Act and not just cults, but like Penn State and the way that people in positions of power are always the ones who have the power to change things. But if they don't benefit from it, they don't. If they benefit from shutting up people who are served by their system, then they will. And it's just, it happens in so many different. It happens in obviously politics and in every corporation where there's higher ups and lower up downs and it's just too scary when you're, when you involve religious affiliations and people's position and proximity to deity. I would say like that this man speaks for God. You're a child, you don't. And that, that supersedes your own morality. Knowing that something that's wrong going on that is just the most toxic situation. And again, I was such a Jesus freak knowing that like oh, the church could be so much better. But now I just see it as like, I don't know how a church can be better. I know churches do better jobs and they have more transparency with finances and they, they, there's healthier ways obviously to, to, to hold of religions accountable. But you're just setting yourself up for failure and for toxic, manipulative, abusive environments in general. And I just saw that and it just filled me with like that muddy, yucky feeling that like my church was good. I thought my church was not only true, but I thought it was good. And it had a very disgusting feeling that it might not even be either of those anymore, you know.

John Dehlin [02:33:18] So this is a, this is a few years ago where you start losing your testimony.

Carah Burrell [02:33:22] Yeah. I would say though that I was dead set. I mean, put a gun to my head two years ago, Carah, guess which one in two years are you going to be? An atheist, lefty or like a super Christian Jesus freak who like I might even moved to Kentucky. That's how serious I was about like I loved this pastor, I loved what he did at his church. And I absolutely thought that I was just going to be a super hardcore Christian was the path that I was on. So my reasons for like Paying attention more to church things was because I, I was trying to figure out if this was really true because I wanted to go live a more authentic Christian life. And my husband from. He always felt uncomfortable because a lot of Tig's friends in LA are obviously lesbians and very liberal in that scene. And it was always uncomfortable that she would always introduce him as like, hey, this is Aaron, my Mormon friend. And she didn't realize that like, I don't think she even paid attention to Prop 8 or whatever because it was like, don't say that because you just, just like soured the room against us for that. So my husband always felt super uncomfortable being Mormon in the comedy scene, trying to like be an ally to people. And it always didn't set right with him. Did I say set right? Sit right with him. The way that the church treated LGBT people and that was a, that he. If again, single issue lever, that's pretty much what done it, did it for him. He didn't know anything about, about the, the history, the, you know, problems with Mormon. I mean the rabbit hole is obviously endless now that I'm well acquainted with. But yeah, I think it's a beautiful thing though that people can have one issue and that's a totally valid issue. And like people shouldn't question that if it's. I think obviously LGBT is the best.

John Dehlin [02:35:08] Children's rights issues and racism isn't bad. Racism, patriarchy and sexism isn't bad. Yeah, it's just like it, it being made up and you know, millions of people being misled.

Carah Burrell [02:35:20] That's not, that's why I call it like a puzzle piece of like fraud. I always imagined I have, I've. Before I Even started doing TikTok, I thought of like video ideas. But like I want to get a puzzle and on each puzzle piece it'll be like LGBT issues. And over here it'll be like conversion therapy and over here it'll be like racism and it'll be stealing things from like the Masons and it'll be like conflicting first testimony and it'll be Book of Abraham and every single one. And then when you put them all together, all the puzzle pieces of the pictures of all of the church problems, and it's obviously a thousand piece puzzle at this point. And it'll just spell out the word fraud when you put it all together. That's how I feel about Mormonism. That one puzzle piece is a completely valid and fine reason to leave because you realize like the jig is up. Like it's just not true.

John Dehlin [02:36:05] So jigsaws up. So did your husband lose his testimony before you?

Carah Burrell [02:36:09] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:36:10] So how did that, what was that like for you? Jesus freak public relations Mormon, when your husband comes to you and says, I don't believe anymore, how did that happen?

Carah Burrell [02:36:19] So unfortunately the church has such a chokehold on family that he got the wrong idea that I would have divorced him if he, if he told me his authentic feelings. Because I think a lot of Mormon couples don't even address the doubts. You don't you talk openly about in your marriage about everything. But that's the one subject where we didn't talk openly about the things that we didn't like about the church. And we were really. Because it's like that could be devastating. If I said that I don't like this. They're going to get the wrong idea that now I want to leave the church and they're going to get afraid and they're going to like double down and it's just going to be this mess. So we had our own quiet issues and his were definitely like LGBT issues. Mine was not having like testimony in a lot of the, the Book of Mormon at the, the temple or wanting to go my Jesus freak route. But we were totally quiet about it. And it's like when things are going to get loud, when they have to get loud. And it wasn't until it was like Easter 2019, he said that was the last time he was ever going to go to church, that he would come with me with Freester. And I was committed to staying Mormon. I was committed to using the structure of the church, raising my kids with those morals and those values and that community. And I was going to teach them the things about Jesus that I really liked. I was going to help them ignore the things that I didn't like and tell them not to pay attention to the them. And my girls were really young at the time. They were like down maybe two or three. And I just, it, it was one day when my daughter came home from primary wearing a future missionary. Don't brand my children LDS Church. That's what really also did it for me. She wore a future mis missionary wristband. And I was like disgusted. I had, I actually had a flash forward of like how disappointed would I be if my daughter actually grew up Mormon to serve a mission. Oh my God. I should probably not raise her in this religion if I like am having, having so many problems with it right now. So yeah, my husband definitely not wanting to go to church anymore and having to figure Out. All right. Am I going to do this on my own? Because I'm. I recoil when I see my daughter branded with missionary gear. What should I do here? So that's when I think the very next next thing was I was open to like what are the problems with the church? What is this anti Mormon stuff that people are talking about? And there's a YouTube video video that I just started with one night called like top 10 problems of Mormonism explained. And that's a really good like summary of all the big ones and most of them I'd never heard of before. Again, sorry, I just burped into the mic when I talk too much I take in a lot of air. So sorry audience.

John Dehlin [02:38:46] So take another drink.

Carah Burrell [02:38:50] This happens in my live streams too. I get dry mouth mouth. But my.

John Dehlin [02:38:58] So you watch that video.

Carah Burrell [02:38:59] So I watched the video and yeah, I can't believe how many things how much of Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:39:04] So you learn about what things in that video?

Carah Burrell [02:39:06] Oh, Kinderhook plates. Never heard of, never heard of the Book of Abraham before. And again, shocking how much you can compartmentalize. Like I subscribe to Fair Mormon's emails all through my 20s. Pretty much like I got them in my inbox in my junk mail and I was one of the few things that I actually read did because I was interested in hearing their updates and what they were doing and all of it was just tribal. It was just tribal. Let me hear what you're debunking of the ex Mormons today. Good job Fair Mormon. I didn't think through it anymore of what are the criticisms that you're even debunking. Like how stupid do I have to be? Like I read Christian apologetics books and like Tim Keller has a great book that I loved when I was Christian and now I think is but about the reason for God. Like I don't know what I was thinking reading so many things, so many apologetics when I couldn't even articulate the critic's point of view. Like if you can't steel man somebody else's point of view and actually represent it, then you don't know what you're even opposing. Like I should have. I just again, I think I was just so close minded that Mormonism my life would crumble without it that I wasn't even able to like hold space in my brain for what the critics were saying. It was that much indoctrination.

John Dehlin [02:40:20] It kind of shows that on some level fairmormon is very effective because the psychology of Fairmorm is dumb.

Carah Burrell [02:40:26] People.

John Dehlin [02:40:26] If. If there are answers. If supposedly smart, educated people can provide answers, you don't even have to pay attention to what the answers actually say or learn what the issues actually are. The psychological impact of that is to put you at ease and say these are not the droids you're looking for. Move right along. Because. Because really smart. Because Daniel Peterson or John Gee or John sorensen, really smart PhDs from Yale or Berkeley or whatever.

Carah Burrell [02:40:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:57] They created answers. So we don't even need to think about it. It's. It's another form of thought stopping, honestly.

Carah Burrell [02:41:02] Yeah. And I think, isn't there a quote by, like, Oaks talking to.

John Dehlin [02:41:06] Yeah, we don't need good answers. We just need answers. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:41:09] Yep. That one I knew. I love how you're just like the repository of everything that. That I need.

John Dehlin [02:41:13] Well, I'm paraphrasing. I'm paraphrasing.

Carah Burrell [02:41:15] Yeah, yeah. That. Just provide something. Just say that just so people can feel tribal and be like, yay, our ti. Our team is doing something. You know. Yeah. So just dumb things. So there's a lot. Yeah. Kinderhook plates I'd never heard of. I never heard of the different versions of the first vision. I. The last thread. I could have made everything work. I remember listening to this, and I was like, okay, I could rationalize my way through how God would allow all this, but the last thing that I couldn't. I wanted to know that I don't even think was even covered in that video. And then I went and researched the rest of the night was how Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. And you've done. You're like, you. You've done, like, your Captain Kid videos. Right. Where, like, I remember you did on the Understanding Mormonism videos. A really good, like, his influences, the things that went into it. And then because so much again, just. Just your testimony that you think is so solid, on such solid footing growing up, that is the lie, the absolute, that Joseph Smith was just this backwards farm boy, could barely ride a sentence. How did he produce the Book of Mormon? He didn't. It was from God. Like, that is such a pillar of so many people's testimonies. And it's just based on an absolute lie because. Because his parents were schoolteachers and he had plenty of time to read and find ways to weave stories all through. Especially. I think people underestimate the time he spent probably laying in bed with his bum leg from his surgery, all growing up, and then all of the pressure that I'm sure his family was on being poor farmers, not having high yields of their crops because it was all rocky and really feeling like it was up to Joseph to come up with something that was going to get their family out of poverty, that he would be able to make a life for himself and make a name for himself. And translating, all right, I'm gonna use a different word besides translate. But repurposing his folk magic talents quote unquote into a religion is genius. Like it's exactly what you'd expect someone to do that once Emma's dad was like, you need to cut out this right now. And he can just repurpose his reputation as somebody who's spiritually inclined to start a religion and make money that way. The, the best old fashioned way to make money there is probably is to invent a religion and say that God talks through you. So yeah, I spent an entire night reading the, like I never knew about the, the sources that he'd plagiarized to write not just the Book of Mormon but Book of, let's see, the Hebrews. Yeah. So yeah, then the, the real nail in the coffin is too is going through the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible stolen from the Adam Clark Bible commentary. Just things when you put them side by side it is obvious. Like the, the way you can just see the way that his mind worked and went from one theology to another and was evolving through a lot of the answers that weren't given in his time in that part of the world at that time. Those were the people. And then you're told your entire life, the Book of Mormon is the new and everlasting, not the new everlasting fullness of. The fullness of the gospel. Sorry, that contained in here is the fullness of the gospel and how much of Mormonism is not in the Book of Mormon. Like if you, if you could point out like the top 10 things that

John Dehlin [02:44:43] Mormonism teaches, distinctive doctrines of Mormonism.

Carah Burrell [02:44:46] Doctrines of Mormonism are. They are. How many are even in the Book of Mormon that are supposed to be. Be so important ceiling?

John Dehlin [02:44:52] Isn't there Melchizedek priesthood? Isn't there temple marriage? Isn't there baptisms for the dead? Isn't there men becoming gods? What did you say?

Carah Burrell [02:45:01] Not murdering people isn't there, I mean

John Dehlin [02:45:03] even the word of wisdom isn't there. Like you're drinking wine in, in the Book of Mormon. Like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:45:10] So having to unravel how he put it together and just seeing it so clear as day. Like there's no question in my mind after that night. It's just. You can't. Once your conscience realizes something that, like, I don't care if it is more advantageous for me to live like, one plus one equals seven. I can't actually live like that. That's not how I can go about my life. Once I know that one plus one equals two, I have to live authentically. That's the way that it is. I don't care what the fallout of it is, is. And that's what. That horrible realization. I could cry just thinking about it. That so many ex Mormons go through and probably a lot of closeted still Mormons of like, I cannot make this work for another second. I haven't been inside a church building since that. That moment, that realization, like, summer 2019. You can't put the. The everything back together again after you deconstruct. And it really happened in one night. I went from being like, I can make this work. I think. I don't know if it's true. True. But, like, I can at least make it work and raise my kids to, like, being disgusted, like, everything. The whole shelf coming down one night. But, yeah, the actual. The day after, I did go to a women's retreat. I have a video about that. Swear I still was like, I'll go to a women's retreat. Because that's like a weekend where I actually loved it. I was up in the mountains on the church's dime, and I brought a ton of. I brought my journal, I brought my Bible. I was still a Jesus freak. Still. Don't forget, forget. So I brought. I just went off into the woods and just read and tried to study out what I wanted to do from then. So that's. That was the perfect opportunity to do that. But, yeah, I hadn't been to. I haven't been to church back since.

John Dehlin [02:46:49] So basically it was just a year and a half ago where you lost your faith. That's not a long time ago.

Carah Burrell [02:46:53] No, it's probably like 19 months ago, I think maybe.

John Dehlin [02:46:56] Yeah, something similar. And so was that liberating? Did it all like, oh, now everything makes sense. Now I feel a big burden lifted.

Carah Burrell [02:47:03] No. Immediately was very sad. Bad. Immediately your hopes and dreams of where it's like, Mormonism provides such a good blueprint of how to live a good life. Do these things, and the output will be these blessings and this good life. It'll take sacrifice, but, like, it just. It's a blueprint of how to live your life. And then you're like, absolute. I don't think ex I really want ex Mormons to be more gentle with Mormons because they might have forgotten or maybe you left the church. Church and you didn't have to go through this major mind change about everything. Like, be gentle with Mormons. Don't just be like, leave. Just everyone needs to leave. Just leave all the time. It's so much pressure to then, especially as a mom of like, I don't know what I want to teach my kids. I don't know how my marriage. What do we have anymore in common? Like, if we don't have our belief in common that ties us together. I don't know how to be or even just. I didn't even know how to be. Be a productive, functioning, moral adult. Because every. The whole world is open to you. Of, like, what is moral? I don't have a lot of people directing me. And I was kind of excited in a way because I felt like Mormonism was too strict with the word of wisdom and things like that. I literally believed that if I drank a cup of coffee, I remember my first cup. I was like, okay, I'm gonna test it. This. Because I believe that if I drink this, the spirit will leave my house. That's a stupid thing to think. Okay, let's just get that. And then I drink the coffee. And then obviously I felt fine. But I remember being, like, working through how my brain was working, like, okay, it is dumb to think that the spirit and that you're gonna feel miserable if you drink coffee or things like that, having to just get rid of those ideas. So I kind of was excited the way that I was planning on being a Christian. That did not go very well for very long because. Because the same logical fallacies that plague Mormonism plague everything else. And so I. I even bought a brand new Bible. I wish I could take it back. If anyone wants a brand new Bible. Spent 60 on it. It's a really cute one. Never got to use it because I immediately just started to deconstruct all religion and all. All of the psychology that got me so bogged down into thinking that I was right. Right. And thinking that the spirit was testifying to me that this one religion was true and just really deconstructing that none of it was true. And I'm actually more horrified that Christians. Because I feel like at least when I was Mormon, I could be like, well, at least these men have a restored gospel and they tell me what is important from the Bible and what we should throw out. I'm actually more horrified at Christians. I think Christians are way more annoying than Mormons. Like, I could get along with Mormons more than Christians now because I can't. I can't physically understand why people worship the God of the Bible without any more updates the way that Mormon has a little. Well, at least we have some more updates from the. The way that the. The God of the Bible conducts himself, let's say as the most evil character in all of history. So.

John Dehlin [02:50:03] So you lost your faith in Jesus and God at some point about two months later.

Carah Burrell [02:50:07] And what was crazy too, is again, totally not planning on this, but we are. So when you're. When you leave Mormonism, you're just like it everything. I'm so committed to finding truth even if it ruins everything. So I. I definitely felt like. Like a computer without an operating system. And I remember crying on the phone to my sister, my. So my sister Bethany, who did leave the church before me that I was telling that story about, she did it completely privately. Like I said, she did not tell anyone except for her roommate mate. And so when I needed her and I was like, going through my whole thing and I had my husband, but my sister is my third wheel in my marriage. I can admit it. So she. She just is like, yep, it sucks. She didn't have, like, a whole lot to offer me. And we both said to each other, like, this is how. When I mean, like, I want ex Mormons to be gentle because this is such a vulnerable, horrible place to be and I can totally put myself back there. Is. We said to each other on the phone, I wouldn't wish this type of pain on my worst enemy. It's like ripping the rug out from somebody is more painful than sometimes Mormons, ex Mormons realize. And to do that to somebody. I think I have a video about that as well. Is like, I want to tell my friends all of these things, but it's not my place to. To wreck your life at this point to tell you to just like, unload on you how your church is a fraud God, and that you're giving your children these harmful ideas and that you're perpetuating all these things. I wish I could, but I just. I know how too much how the backfire effect works too. I don't think it would be, like, advantageous for anyone to do that, but it's. Yeah. So I. I had definitely had to operate without a worldview. And I think I reconstructed my word worldview pretty quickly within about two months. And I think, like Eckhart Tolle books or is the first place that I went. And I got a lot of, or strangely, I got a lot of peace out of studying like, evolutionary biology and listening to the way that everything that we. Everything that I gave a religious explanation to has a scientific explanation, or we will at least have an explanation for it. And just finding so much more comfort in the rationale is where I turned. And like, I think people have this misunderstanding of atheists that like, that we just, we don't know anything and we don't. That, like, we're just arrogant. And I'm like, I am so comfortable in not knowing things that I ever was when I was religious. Like, so much of when you're religious and Mormon, you're like, like, God will have an answer for it later. And you just translate that into, like, I have. We have so many more answers than we even know what to do with right now. With what science has already taught us. We have so much on our plate of what social science is teaching us about people and psychology. There's. That's. That's really the path that gives me a lot of peace. So. And then, yeah, what was crazy was I. So this was like September 2019, the night that I decided, like, okay, I deconstructed religion. I officially. Oh, my God, I can't believe this is happening. I actually think I'm an atheist. Then very next day at 10am, my mom called me that my dad and her, their truck drivers and they were driving back east and they were stopping at my brother's house. He lives right outside of Louisville, Kentucky. And my dad had the aorta in his heart rip open, open. And he was going in for like, emergency open heart surgery. And I had not yet decided how I felt about, you know, like, afterlife. And. And it was so. It was crazy how quickly I needed a worldview that I hadn't even really constructed. Like, I just. It happened too quickly and it was, it was kind of traumatizing again. So I, like, I want to be gentle with people that I don't know what's going on in your life. Life, that maybe you need Mormonism to get you through something as traumatic as your dad dying, you know, so that happened the very next day. And then I don't use. I don't throw around the word miracle very often, but it. I. I get why my family calls my dad survival after that a miracle because he was having kidney failure and liver failure. And my entire family actually flew out to Louisville to go visit him because we thought that he was going to die. And he spent like six weeks in the hospital out there and he's still not doing quite too well. So I have to tread carefully how I talk about my dad cuz he is pretty much passing away any day right now. But yeah, so that was a wild time. And as mentioned, Kyle Idleman before, that was the trip when I was able to go out there. And then I took a couple hours off from visiting my dad at the hospital to go to Kyle Idleman's church. And it was.

John Dehlin [02:54:59] You got to see him.

Carah Burrell [02:55:00] I, it was. So what's funny is churches like that operate way different. Like the pastor is kind of a celebrity that most people don't get to just like talk to because it's such a big church. And so what was funny is I went up to like the help desk at this gigantic church and told them like, hi, I'm in town cuz my dad is really sick in the hospital. But I've been, I've listened to every sermon that Kyle has given for the last seven years. And I'm a person who just left Mormonism a month ago. And I love Kyle's preaching and I haven't reconstructed what I think of this pastor since I left. I'm sure pretty much anything where people are trying to give people peace and hope is good. But then by the same token, I think that the Bible is not true. So you know, I have to reconstruct how I actually feel about him. But at the time it was really one of the coolest experiences of my life life. But unfortunately it happened like a week too late. If it happened like a week before, I would have been like meeting my idol. But now I'm meeting like this really cool guy that helped me through. That's how I explained it to him when I actually did get to meet him because they met him. So they were really impressed that they're like, you're what? You've listened, you've read every one of his books and I like gave them my resume. I was like, hi, I just love Mormonism. I read every one of his books. I've listened to every one of his sermons. I've actually memorized his sermons and Mormonified them and gave them them as talks in my Mormon church. I'm. I love his style of preaching and it just was so digestible and I just felt God's love through his preaching. What more can I say?

John Dehlin [02:56:31] What's his name again?

Carah Burrell [02:56:32] Kyle Idleman. He has a book called Not a Fan.

John Dehlin [02:56:34] How do you spell Idleman?

Carah Burrell [02:56:36] I D, L, E, M A N. And so yeah, it was just crazy. And they were like, follow me. And they're like, we don't do this very often. And, yeah, I followed him back. And then I went to the green room of this again. It's like one of those big churches. Church, yeah. And I hate to use the word mega church, because that just sounds like freaking Joel Olsteen or something, but it's. I still have, I don't know. I haven't reconstructed how I feel about it, but I still had really happy feelings, even though I kind of deep down was like, I think I'm an atheist now. I don't believe this, but I still want to go. I'm here in freaking Louisville. When am I going to be in Louisville, Kentucky again? So I went to the green room and I went. Wish I literally. I don't. I've met celebrities. I've met every hero I've ever had, Right. And I'm, like, cool, calm, and collected. You saw me walk in. You know, how did I, I, I didn't fall on the floor worshiping you, John. I'm sorry. I should have. That's how I feel about you. But I was so, like, overtaken by the gratitude that I had for this man is really what I want to get across. Like, this man really did so much for me in that whole span of time, from 2012 to, like, 2019, and shaking his hand, I was, like, bawling. Very embarrassing. But they took, like, there's nothing cooler than being an ex Mormon at a Christian church. And, like, the worship band took me backstage, and I got to hang out for a couple hours with all of the crew, all of the worship band. And even though evangelical, like, worship music is super corny, I love, I loved it. I loved it. And I was, like, bawling the entire time that I was there. And it was also one of those things where I, I was, I, I, I knew that I was kind of an atheist deep down, but it was so weird because, you know, when you're religious, you still are looking for coincidences of God doing things, and you're kind of always looking for patterns of, like, oh, that's God working. And it was strange that I'd listened to every sermon that Kyle had ever given in the last seven years. And the one time that he talked about social media outreach and using the Internet to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ was the time where he showed, like, a map on, on his screen, and he said, right now, this is where people are watching the live streams of our, of our sermons all around the world, that people are logging on to our website. And it was the day that I was there that I was one of those people that did that that like followed his church for all of these years. And I was like, that is so weird. And I literally came back to Christianity for like a couple hours because I was like, that is a spooky coincidence incidents that of all of the times he, that he talks about that that's the one time that I'm there. And anyway, so yeah, everyone was really sweet and really nice and I had to really work through what that meant. I had a moment of like, is this God trying to talk to me? Trying to like show me in a humongous way that like my dad lives through this horrendous hospital stay like again, miracle kind of status of what he went through that he was able to get through the, that that it happened in Louisville, Kentucky of all places and all the experiences I had. But I had to work through how you come out on that that coincidences happen. And I was experiencing gratitude and elevated emotion to the highest degrees that my brain would allow like absolute euphoria in this, in this church that I was feeling. But I was like that doesn't translate into the Bible being true. Like it's way too big of a leap to get from one to the other. Like I cannot not get my wrap my head around that Jesus was an actual person that was actually God. So I couldn't.

John Dehlin [03:00:00] I. Yeah, there's a lot of believing Christians and or Mormons that are saying she's really ungrateful. She had that miracle and she turned away from the miracle.

Carah Burrell [03:00:09] Yeah. They should have given that miracle to like a starving dying child in the world though. Sorry, that's my cold hearted atheist commie voice coming up.

Leaving the Church and Rebuilding as a Couple

John Dehlin [03:00:19] Okay, so this is just a year and a half ago where you're losing you full on lose your testimony. And it's great because your husband had already lost his faith and so now you're able to be in a non mixed faith marriage.

Carah Burrell [03:00:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:33] And so you deconstruct and you start the process of reconstructing.

Carah Burrell [03:00:37] Yeah. And the. It's so beautiful. I wish. Oh my God. The thing, the other side of what I just described of that. Like I would don't wish this on my worst enemy. The other side though is so much more filled with like vibrancy and.

John Dehlin [03:00:53] What other side?

Carah Burrell [03:00:54] When you get through that growing pain of having to reconstruct what you believe. Yeah. There's a reason why people don't do it because it's really painful. But there's the growth and that you get to be in charge of your own brain. And I am. I mean I feel like I was a pretty self confident, outgoing person before, but like I would not of the person I am now to the person then like are kind of still unrecognizable. Like I like meeting Zelf on the shelf the other day, meeting somebody that I really look up to and I'm a little intimidated by because they're so funny. Like I'm able to walk into situations, sit down with you or anything because I am so self confident that I am okay. Where before in Mormonism, I'm always questioning if I have the spirit with me, can I do the hard things that I need to do? Because did I sin in and I need to question how do I feel? Do I need to repent of something? Do I need to second guess if I actually do have the spirit with me always, you know what I mean? And that I didn't realize how much that bogged down my confidence. And now it's like I can do anything I want. And I think also people really underestimate how much your worldview has changed, how much how politically I care about things that I just didn't think I would, I honestly didn't think that I would ever care about like, like when I was, was Mormon and just the ways that my ambitions have changed. Even my husband, we've had some amazing talks lately that like oh like so much of our upbringing was rooted in we need to get good grades, to go to a good college, to get a good high paying job, to have as many kids as possible. Something that's not that you don't literally say out loud very much, but, but that's deep in your conditioning of how we were raised. And now my husband's in a job as a, as a programmer and especially with COVID he's like working out of our laundry room like a tiny little hole in the wall and he's realizing how unfulfilling the things, the ambitions that he had when he was Mormon don't match up with the ambitions that he has now as an ex Mormon. Right. Like our, our worldview and what we want is different now. And like I would have, I was not ambitious career wise, wise whatsoever. Like I was so happy to be like a career nanny and that's what I felt like I was good at. And I was not ambitious too much with my comedy or anything. Like if I would have, if you would have asked me like a year ago even what my Dream job would be, would just be to be an editor. Like, I love editing film and stuff. That's what I really enjoyed doing in high school. And now that I've gotten so much good feedback from my tick tock, I'm like, I could be unstoppable. Like, my ambitions are so much different because I was shaped, shaped in as much of a feminist leaders that I had, my, my worldview is still shaped that like nothing will make me happier than being a stay at home mom and as much joy as my kids bring me. Of course, like I, I didn't recognize leaving Mormonism, how much I would need for myself and how much validation, fulfillment that I have something to offer the world, how much that would come into play with what I want to do now. And like, my husband's totally supportive in that way. And so like, there's so much more cool adventures to go on than just like, yeah, we like as more exorbits to make fun of how like, yeah, we can drink and smoke and have all the orgies that we want now. No, just kidding. But we make fun of how we did things we could never do before. It's like the greatest thing is like you can construct a really amazing life for you and your family based on evidence and empathy and you're not beholden to dogma anymore. More so that's. It gives, it gives me a high just thinking about it when people talk about their, their like relationship with Jesus. That used to give me like a spiritual high. Right when you'd bear your testimony. Now I literally get in high, get like endorphin rush. When I think about how much freedom I have to just follow what I feel is right and follow just and, and feel like I can. Mormonism kind of holds you back from empathizing with the wrong people sometimes because you feel like you trading that in for your church. And it's like I can openly, unabashedly love LGBT people without holding back anymore. And I wish more progressive Mormons would realize that at the end of the day, no matter how much with your words or your actions, you say that you still are upholding a God that doesn't feel the same way. So like, forget about the leaders. You're still upholding a God that doesn't think that these people matter as much. And so if you can just get to the other place where you know that, that God, God doesn't feel those way and you can validate your LGBT friends, like that's a really beautiful place. And so to bring it all Back to like our time in LA again. Like, I wish I could have redone that in the place that I am now. Like, imagine like the opportunities for comedy that we would have had. Imagine the way that we could have been more open and loving with like our gay friends and stuff in la. That's always kind of like a regret of mine that we obviously have grown from. But, but so, so

John Dehlin [03:05:50] as I, as I kind of, as I think about this, there's the freedom of, of losing. Okay, so the way we started was with your parents having kind of not so great lives and the church providing that structure to allow them to not necessarily have a perfect life, but to have a better life than what they have had. So then you guys have an even better life than your parents had because of the church's structure. Right? And, but then you eventually lose your faith in that and then you end up with, with, with like you said, like a computer without software, an operating system, and then you've got no structure and then you've got to rebuild it back. That all sounds great. There is a risk and that's that you can wreck it all. That you can and you know, do the wrong drugs or engage in risky behavior.

Carah Burrell [03:06:45] Drugs?

John Dehlin [03:06:46] What's that?

Carah Burrell [03:06:46] There's no wrong drugs.

John Dehlin [03:06:48] I don't know about that. I think there definitely are wrong drugs. And alcohol can be the worst drug of all. And that's legal. But, but, and people can have responsible relationships with alcohol too. Like any of that's possible. But the point I'm making is yes, there's freedom, yes, there's euphoria after you work through all the pain, but you can also blow up your life, blow up your marriage. Have you thought about that?

Carah Burrell [03:07:12] Oh yeah. That was never an issue for me. That was definitely an issue for my parents. That's what they thought was happening because like I was saying, like my mom had only constructed that good people are in one camp, bad people are in the other. And I shared that for a lot of the time. Like I didn't tell this story when I was a teenager, I again raised in Provo, Utah so much. I had just one, one narrow minded view of how people acted. And good, the good people are Mormon and anyone who's not Mormon is a loser is pretty much how my life went. And there was a time when I went back to go visit my cousins who I never spent any time with back east. And me and my cousin were both like 16 and I was surprised. This is how narrow my WorldView was at 16, living in Provo Utah I was surprised that my non Mormon cousin swore so much. And she was probably into all kinds of other things, things. And I was surprised that she wanted to go to college and had her life together and got good grades and had friends. That was something I wrote in my journal, John, that I was like, can you believe? And I even wrote down like she said the word damn when we were trying to park. And that was noteworthy to me that like, that like, somebody would swear so casually about something so, like, unimportant like that I could. I had to like, realize very slowly and surely that like, good people again. When I was at camp, that happened too. I actually had a. The first panic attack I ever had was my first party at camp, seeing all of my new friends drunk and high or whatever and being like, but they're such good people. Why. If they're such good people, why are they engaging in this kind of like, I couldn't understand that. Like, that's people. People drinking has no bearing on, like, their actual morality and the things that they do do. So I think I had like a healthy. I had to come to that realization earlier than later. And so that was never really an issue. Like, I knew I always, in my heart of hearts, I still have the same values that I had when I was a Mormon. Like, I want to uphold my responsibilities to my children and like my marital vows, you could say to my husband to be that's the most important thing in the world. World to me is that I have a good relationship with my husband and that my kids don't have to worry about anything. That like, we work through any problems that we have and that they are safe and loved and all of those things. Those are the most important things in the world are the same most important things now. And so I was always very aware, leaving Mormonism, that I didn't want to do anything that jeopardized my relationship with my husband or my might, you know, bring any kind of dysfunction into my house with my kids. So, like, there's growing pains to that, obviously, like eating pot brownies and not realizing how strong they were going to be. And then my husband and I being high out of our m effing minds for like two days straight. Not two days. I'll say it was one day, but we had to take turns. We set a timer on our phone for every two hours for who got to sleep and then who had to get up and watch the kids so that we could like, work through a hangover. That was a bad day. But our kids Loved it. Cuz we just said they could have as much Halloween candy as they wanted that day. So there was growing pains, there were hiccups in my early, my early times. I have, I have mastered my, my marijuana intake now since I have switched the other side. I'm on the dark side now. I pretty much just subsist off of coffee and marijuana at this point and. But yeah, that was never an issue for me. And other really interesting things. I know this is kind of weird to even break growing up, but I wish so. Oh my. There is. I hated, hated like pornography. You could say I'll use the, the Mormon term of pornography porn as the kids are calling it. I hated it so much growing up and never looked at it or anything. But I had, I had even female friends of mine who have struggled with pornography addictions. I'm using that term.

John Dehlin [03:11:08] Air quotes. You can't get air quotes.

Carah Burrell [03:11:10] I swear. I do not consider it an addiction by any. But the church would or they, they would. Where they have been bogged down into really feeling a lot of shame about those things and knowing that obviously that's a huge struggle for so many Mormon marriages. That's never been a struggle in my marriage for either of us whatsoever. It's very far away from it. And realizing as soon as the church isn't true, I would have again remember like I said, like I guarantee I would not have believed how much my worldview would change. I still assumed I would have the same views about porn that I would, that I would have had when I was Mormon. Like that has changed where I am able to not judge someone's morality by whether or not they look at porn. Like it's almost like of course there's like ideas around consent and things like that, but just baseline like that doesn't make you a bad person. That doesn't mean that you should be fighting with your wife over it. This isn't a grounds for divorce the way that Mormons are kind of like how like the women's groups on Facebook. There's so many Mormon women's groups just devoted to. My husband is addicted to pornography born. Should we get divorced? Kind of subjects, right? Like how many marriages are in play in. In just really toxic places that they don't need to be in because of the church and just how much freedom on the other end that is given for me just to love people that like so many things you're taught in Mormonism have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you're a good person. And so many things that you're taught to do in Mormonism actually make you a worse person sometimes. And the ideas that you hold and like, the things that you perpetuate and how much, how much that flips, you know, is. That's been a huge, beautiful, new eye opening, awakening thing that I just want to give. Like, I, I love my Mormon friends so much, so passionately. I still am really good friends with most of the girls that I went to high school with, and most of them are all still Mormon. And I know that it's, you know, the only structure that you have right now to raise your kids or to keep your marriage together is that. So I don't want to take that away from you, but I wish, like, if any, anybody has questions and wants to get to the other side, to where I'm at right now, the healthy place that I'm in, like, I feel like with my TikTok, I really, it's not just silly, funny videos. I honestly have my DMs open for anyone that they want resources, they want to talk to somebody, they want just to like, cry on my shoulder. Like, I've been there and if I have free time, which I usually do, I will get to as many messages as I can and provide resources for anyone going through the that because it's, it's such a painful place to be in. But then you get to the other side and if you can be in this, like, I am 10 out of 10, happy, healthy, thriving as like a post Mormon person who doesn't have any belief in God right now. Like, I just wish people could realize it's absolutely possible, you know. Okay, I take that back. I don't know your situation. I hope it's possible for you. I just didn't think it was possible for me. I did not imagine my life could be this healthy. I'll phrase it that way.

Finding Nuance and Launching the TikTok Channel

John Dehlin [03:14:02] I love it. So how do you go from losing your faith, reconstructing, reaching a state of happiness to that next step, which, which is the reason, honestly, it's the reason why I have you on. Because I think it is, it is so rare and so hard and so significant to become a public, outspoken critic of the church. It's one thing, it's like, like gargantuan to leave the church or lose your faith in it and then to like, deal with all the fallout. Like, I know so many brilliant, rich, powerful people that are too afraid to leave the church. Oh, my wife will leave me, or, oh, I'll lose my job, or I'll lose clients or Whatever, they're brilliant, they're good people, they're smart people and they're afraid to be honest and open with the world. So it's. You not only sort of hit the 90s, 8th or 99th percentile of awesomeness for figuring things out and making a choice that's best for you in your life and that's not always leaving the church, but for you it was. So you hit the 98th percentile just for doing that. In terms of awesomeness, you hit the 99.9 percentile because you make that extra decision to actually be an outspoken critic, which turns you from being a huge disappointment and scary for all your orthodox believing friends. It makes you evil. It makes you a bad person. It puts you on the level that people see me at, which is that I'm a, I have horns. That I'm an evil, bad, nasty, awful son of perdition. When you decide to have a successful TikTok channel that is really outspoken, you join my league of evil, right? And you're not just doing that, but you're dropping F bombs. You're, you know, know you're doing it with hard edge comedy that's hilarious and smart and insightful and also breaking a lot of the sexual and drug and, and you know, swearing sort of taboos. So how do you go to the 99 point, you know, 95 percentile and become a tick tocker?

Carah Burrell [03:16:11] I think this answer might surprise you. I actually really, as you were talking, all it really comes down to, to is seeing Mormons as products of their conditioning and that they are robots and cult members. Opinions of me don't matter. And that's pretty much. I, I wasn't, I had a lot of like neurological problems since my son was born and getting zero hours of sleep continually for a really long time. So I didn't have enough gas in the tank to think or do anything. But I was on TikTok talk for, since summer 2020, but it wasn't until like November 2020 when the, the Give thanks campaign for the church came out. And there is nothing if I just told you everything. It's nothing I hate more than a really poorly executed obvious PR stunt by the church that just made me so. And then be all of my friends and family every day of my life on social media being used like, like a cog in a machine by the church. And that's where I couldn't stand. We're like these good people. They want to say what they're thankful for. There's nothing wrong with giving thanks it's that you're being used for a marketing campaign also during a pandemic, let's not forget. So just the absolute incompetency and the lies got just too much for me to handle. And that's when I started the, the first one where I was like, all right, I'm diving into like, I know this is going to get me some hate. I made a few ex Mormon videos before that, but that was the first one I was like, I know I'm gonna get some tape from that one. And that's where I just kind of committed from then on to keep going. But I thought it would be like 50, 50, like half of the people ex Mormon TikTok would like it and then half would be like, you know, a fire hose of just people being annoying constantly on the Internet. And it's not been that at all. It's been 99%. I, I only rarely have like a really ignorant comment from a Mormon. And the irony though is really great. I get my best ideas for content, no kidding. From dumb ignorant comments from Mormons that then I just. Some people, their style is like to reply directly to the camera when they have a comment because TikTok has a really good feature where you can see a comment and record a video with that comment on the screen so you're talking directly to that person almost and addressing their issues. You have, they have with you, you and you can do that or you could just like do a satire of how they sound to you or something like that. So like my videos are called like ex Mormon Virgin 1 and 2 or like replying to the most stereotypical you can leave the church, we can't leave it alone type comments. And I just compare that to like losing my comment section virginity. So those are like my favorite personal ones because I, the second one, the commenter actually I think I made him fall in love with me by the end because says he was actually an ex Mormon who said some really dumb thing like about like how when ex Mormons leave they make being an ex Mormon their personality trait. Yeah. Super cool new fresh insults. Guys like, yeah, that's really great. They just, it comes from just like a, a small closed minded place where they don't understand how high demand religions work and that there's a lot of people who, who need comedy and validation and that's. If you don't get it, if you're an ex Mormon and you don't get it, that's totally fine. I could totally see the reasons people could think that you know, but for the people who do, like, I'm here, I'm having fun. So I can't even remember what your original question is. I've been ranting for a while. Sorry.

Goals, Motives, and Dreams for NuanceHoe

John Dehlin [03:19:41] So how do you. How do you get over the fear of what the backlash is gonna be to make you want to start a chance channel?

Carah Burrell [03:19:49] Yeah, I. Like I said, yeah. I just. Cult members opinions don't bother me, so I. I wasn't.

John Dehlin [03:19:54] What about your. I mean, what about your mom? What about your dad? What about.

Carah Burrell [03:19:58] They just won't find out.

John Dehlin [03:19:59] What about these pro. Oh, come. I didn't get your face on that because I switched the camera to me. Say that again.

Carah Burrell [03:20:06] I said they won't find out. Everyone is cool. Everyone. Keep it cool.

John Dehlin [03:20:10] Don't tell. No, but all your. Your leaders in Provo, all your friends in Provo, somebody. Yeah, all your. All your friends, all those people back in LA that you knew, all the members, all your husband's missionary companions, they're all going to find out.

Carah Burrell [03:20:24] I've come to terms with. Here's the thing, John, I'm sure you've gone through the same thing too. The church, while it can provide a good, safe haven for a lot of people, the fallout and consequence of what they're doing. We're talking about the children, they're talking about the lgbt, we're talking about women's. We're talking about every major issue that people should care about. The church is just a cluster of some of the worst ideas. Let's be real, right? And is such an obvious fraud, right. That I see just this massive tsunami of people leaving and needing such a. Such like, desperate validation that it's good to leave, that you should leave. There's valid reasons for leaving. And I. I feel like that's the only people's opinions I care about. So my. Anyone who's Mormon, who. I don't want to hurt my friend's feelings like I do, I believe deep down that the church. Not even deep down do I believe by definition, is the church occult, 100%. But would I say that to their face? No, because I know they interpret that as I'm trying to hurt their feelings,

John Dehlin [03:21:35] but you'd say it all over the

Carah Burrell [03:21:37] Internet that I actually don't say it too much. I. You'll be. You'll notice actually in my comment section, if somebody's like the church, it's a cult. I actually sometimes delete those comments because I want my comment section to be more of a place where people don't feel. If a Mormon was reading my comment section. I want them to get a little bit more nuanced, let's say of an opinion of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [03:21:55] So not dumb, basically.

Carah Burrell [03:21:57] Yeah, it's. I know people are gonna be like, well, you're crazy because you come off as like a ranty ex Mormon. I really, I have, I have a, I have a way. I don't worry, I have an approach that I'm going for. I can't.

John Dehlin [03:22:08] No, no, no. You come off as a playful, intelligent, witty, insightful. I mean, there's something powerful about comedy that, you know, if I, if, if I, or let's say Mike Norton are really angry and we say something, or Bill Real say something direct and hard hitting, that's putting people off. Yeah, but the same person who watches something really funny and witty and hip and cool, that's sarcastic. They may not even not be offended. They might actually love it and think it's funny, even as a believer. Right?

Carah Burrell [03:22:37] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:38] And that's the power of comedy.

Carah Burrell [03:22:39] It's, it's, it's what I call like, you know, grease in the wheels, like a little bit of lubrication. It's. It's fine. And I, Yeah, some people are just gonna, they. Whatever they're gonna gravitate to when they need it, if they're at all in the precipice of something big leaving, whether it's Mormonism or anything else, and they find one of my videos, since the algorithm is so cool school, it can put my video or anyone's video in front of somebody on the other side of the world who has their own religion that they're deconstructing. So my, deep down, what I'm really trying to do is think about what would reach me two years ago. And I pretty much write to that. Like, I try to think about the things that held me in and it probably like, like Zelf on the Shelf was a great first step into considering the truth claims of the church. They were like the first video of by an ex Mormon that I ever watched because I just thought that they know everyone else is just trying to tear down the church and trying to be little wannabe John de Linz, you know, So I. And it's because they had a good vibe. Like they, they didn't seem too threatening. And then you listen to more of their story and you're like, oh, damn. Like they're sincere. They really had a testimony, testimony. And they tried to make things work and oh, they came out on the other side, healthy, happy, productive atheists on the other end and you can just see somebody's journey. I want people to be able to see that in me a little bit. That like, I had just your normal, like, suburban Mormon kind of life with my husband and my kids. There's. It wasn't because my husband and I were gay or had a pornography addiction or were like incredibly outspoken feminists and wanted to join ordained women. There is nothing thing that was.

John Dehlin [03:24:21] Or you wanted to drink beer, get high.

Carah Burrell [03:24:23] Yeah, like, I mean, I wanted to do those things, but deep down they were all suffocated by my love for Jesus. So yeah, there was. There was no out. It just that when the church isn't true, that's a perfectly valid reason to get out. But I. I just want with my content for people to be able to see that I loved the church. I didn't have a negative experience. I in it. And if you feel the same way or have any other reason that you're leaving the church, like, hey, let's be friends. Like, I totally validate you in that. And if my friends and family like to your original question to whoever finds out the help that I'm doing far outweighs and outpaces like my need for people to respect me, that even better Mormon. Yeah. I've literally gone through the conversation in my head, said of every person, every person who's close to me finding out. And. And I've only had to have that conversation with like one person. I've actually told a couple of my Mormon friends. I didn't get into detail, but somebody who had seen my videos because it's so easy for people to see their videos. I assume I have already just. I gotten to that point where Tick tock. If I know somebody has Tick Tock and they're Mormon, I just assume they've seen them on my videos. Like, there's. You know what I mean? Like everybody, they're just Tick Tock's algorithm works in that way.

John Dehlin [03:25:41] It's not good for the church. Yeah, it can't be good for the church.

Carah Burrell [03:25:43] So like I'm saying, like, it's too good of an opportunity to help people to like, express myself. It's like the ultimate thing that I couldn't imagine doing anything to make me any happier. I mean, I will snowball into other things and I'll probably start a YouTube channel in a couple days. But like, it's exactly the place where I am getting the most fulfillment out of my life in ways that I like, didn't even realize. I know it's like a Little, little hokey Tick Tock channel. But like with the DMS I get and the feedback that I get and then just the fulfillment that like, hey, I've been a mom and a nanny and I've not really been able to like actually write comedy for a long time. But this has been a passion of mine since I was a kid. Almost like since I was writing songs as a teenager. It just is the ultimate fulfillment of feeling like I was different as a kid and feeling like I had something to say and that I saw the world differently. Like I'm able to actually, actually package that in a way that makes me happy, makes other people happy. Like, and if people, if again, do I believe Mormons are in a cult? Yeah, I'm sorry, but your, your, your worldview about, about what you think about my content is really irrelevant because you're looking at it through a Mormon's pinhole view of the world. If you realize the church wasn't a fraud, you'd be with me, like high fiving me and liking my videos. So when you're on that side of Mormonism, it's, it's people's opinions don't really. So when people leave negative comments that are Mormon and are like going crazy on me, I'm like, this is a robot who has been programmed to hate all things that talk negatively about their church. Like, and I, I get it. That's fine. I used to be just like that too. I can empathize being in that place.

John Dehlin [03:27:17] So when you see like, well, there's, there's a lot of ex Mormon activists that I've interacted with who've had it really bad where their parents are really disappointed or they get ostracized or cut off or, you know, just really hurtful, stressful things. When you watch ex Mormon Mindy on Tick Tock, she'll sometimes like play her sobbing crying as her in law says this or her mom says that. And you can just see how sometimes these people, you know, these ex Mormon activists are torn because they really believe in what they do. But, but it's so hard that it's like brutal and excruciating for them. You're basically you.

Carah Burrell [03:28:02] I totally understand that. If I cared what my, if I cared what they thought, I could. Yeah. But I've gotten to the point where I think I got to that point when I left Mormonism. Like I had to give up what my parents thought of me then. And oh, and to add insult, injury, let's. I mean, my dad is so close to dying Right now he's starting to say the real true things on his heart. And it sucks. Like, there's nothing worse. Worse than having to hear from your dad that he feels like he failed as a father because you're an atheist now. And it's like, I just wish I could. I wish that wasn't even an issue with our relationship. But I've made peace with that. That you are raised to think that I am the worst thing in the world. I'm a lefty atheist now, and I. I know that that's just the way that your brain's gonna work. And your disappointment of me is it's gonna be what it's gonna be. I can't change that because I can't change who I am. Am. I'm not gonna let. There's also, like, this really free speech, wanting to just never be held back thing about leaving Mormonism too, where it's like I had to bite my tongue and have this cognitive dissonance for so many years. Like, it's unthinkable now that I would do that now for anyone, even if it's keeping my. My parents happy or my family happy. I've. I came to terms with that when I left Mormon and. And like family members that I have. I mean, thankfully, like most. Since my parents are converts, most of their. Most of my family isn't like, all I. Extended family isn't Mormon, so it's just my immediate family and. Oh, yeah, forgot about that. Major disappointment. It's so funny. I've, like, compartmentalized. We're talking about me. I was like, oh, yeah. My husband, the other half of me and how much his family is upset. I forgot to mention that. Yeah, that's definitely been a humongous because. Right.

John Dehlin [03:29:49] Sounds like it's been harder for him than.

Carah Burrell [03:29:50] Oh, my God. It's been. Yeah. I don't even want to smile and laugh. I want to cry. It's actually been really difficult for my husband. I mean, like, he.

John Dehlin [03:29:58] That makes you compartmentalized.

Carah Burrell [03:30:00] What?

John Dehlin [03:30:01] Just the fact that you were so sort of, like, resilient about all your family and you just completely space the fact I know the person you're married to.

Carah Burrell [03:30:10] Lock that back.

John Dehlin [03:30:11] No, no, no. It's just we do this as humans, but you. You kind of are compartmentalized because it sounds like it's really hurt your husband and his family.

Carah Burrell [03:30:19] Are you talking about leaving Mormonism or am I channel. Okay. Leaving Mormonism. Yes. And again, I think. I don't think anyone would be like, that surprised on top of it. If I'm like outspoken talking about the church, all the harm has been done. The building has been burned down. When we told when we were leaving the church, there's nothing else to burn down pretty much is kind of how it feels. So without a doubt out there's got to be people in my family, I mean my husband's family, like his extended family because he has a lot of cousins and everyone that I know have seen my stuff. There's no way that they wouldn't have. But yeah, it's the, the it's one of those things like everything's relative, right? Like in relative terms of how much pain certain things can cause. Like my husband lost his mom last year and we left the church right before she died completely suddenly. And she and my husband were never able to actually have a conversation because it was too much of a hot topic. And I love my mother in law, she's one of like the nicest, sweetest, most genuine people I've ever known. Very, very like true blue Mormon woman. And so it crushed her that we were taking away this eternal family thing from her. When you just rip that apart and be like, oh, this thing that you've worked your entire life, life, your entire number one goal is that your kids would live faithfully in the gospel and raise their kids in the gospel. And we're just. I know what it feels like to, for somebody just to reject that and say, oh, everything that you love. I hate all that. I'm crumpling it in a ball and throwing it away. I know it crushed her that we left that my husband and her never had a conversation about it. I had the long hour conversations on the phone with her trying to work her through why we were leaving and I could just, she would just say the funniest things that I had to not laugh at because it was so, you know, a robot replying to me where I'm like hey mother in law. Everything you're saying is starting out with the presupposition that these men do hold the truth. Like we are starting with an objective like standard going back from that of like this shows with the. Just the Joseph Smith did this, this, this, this, this, this shows that the very foundation is not true, you know. And she just, she couldn't grapple with that at all obviously, but still loved us and still cared about us. But my husband was never able to have have that conversation with her and he, I think he took his, his mom's death particularly hard a cuz it was completely out of the blue and very sudden. When she passed away in August, she

John Dehlin [03:32:42] has to have been relatively young.

Carah Burrell [03:32:44] Yeah. She was in her late 60s. And that he was never able to be. To express, like, thank you, Mom. Like, yes. Like, I always like to describe the church as like, like a scaffolding that my parents gave me that we built a house inside of. And now that would be silly to keep living in a house that has scaffolding on it, that has vines growing on it. Like, it's time to tear that down. And I have my own house now, and I'm going to rearrange my own house and I'm going to order my own furniture and I'm going to do my own thing now. Like, don't be upset that we are rejecting this thing, because I know a lot of parents feel that way. Like, no, like, we were converts. Like, we. We found the true church so you wouldn't have to go throughout life trying to figure out what was true and what was false. Like, we got it for you. And to reject that and to say, like, okay, you found something that had some good parts of it, but we actually found something way better. They. They just, they want to stop with that, that it's true. So I know that that was really, really difficult. And to this day, my husband has conversations every day with his dad, though, about the church. And my husband always leaves the conversations going, going. I don't think my dad even knows what Mormonism is. You know, like, Mormons. Like that, where it's like, anything that you can bring up, like, did you know that it was actually official doctrine about blacks in the priesthood in, like, 1946 or whatever? And I can read you the additional. The church's official statement right here on the website. And my father in law's response is, those guys are idiots. It's like, then why are you in this? Like, every response that he doesn't like is like, well, that's a dumb person. And I, I don't respect them, you know, so it's like, you hold on to this. They defend it. He, like, my father in law defends it so much about the church and is so crushed that we left. But anything that we bring up to him is like, well, that's just a dumb person. I don't believe that part of the core doctrine of the church or whatever, you know, that these men are supposed to be prophets. They're just actually idiots, you know, so.

John Dehlin [03:34:37] But it's kind of what you did before you lost your faith, right?

Carah Burrell [03:34:39] Yeah. Yeah, I guess now I'm the idiot.

John Dehlin [03:34:41] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so why if you had to describe, if somebody were to say, well, Carrie, you're just. You just want to destroy the church. You're just trying to tear the church down or you're just trying to take people away from the church. What are your motives for doing nuance Hoe on Tick tock?

Carah Burrell [03:35:00] I change. I'm trying. It's again, it's still. I'm not. If anyone goes on my tick tock after this, you'll just see me in my infancy. They say like in stand up that every year, year that you're in stand up is like a year, like you're a 1 year old or like if you've been doing it a long time, you're a 20 year old. So you're like an adult in stand up. I feel that same way about what I'm doing right now. So I'm still trying to figure out. I feel like I'm still in my infancy of figuring out what I want to do. But you asked what my, my goals

John Dehlin [03:35:29] are and what they're not.

Carah Burrell [03:35:31] And what they're not. Yeah, it's first and foremost just to reach out to people who like that. I, I feel like I was so scared of ex Mormons. Like I just thought that they were all commie atheists, the anarchists, antifa members with like their head shaved. Like I didn't have. I was. Had such a narrow worldview. Like I didn't know what was out there. I didn't see somebody that I resonated with. So that's what's great about X Mormon Tick tock is there's so many different people that you can relate to do. And yeah, do I do I like the endorphins that come from like people thinking I'm funny or witty or whatever. Yes. But like I already know that outside of Tick tock. Like my husband validates that within me and my friends and my family do. Everything that, that I is reinforced on Tick tock are things that I already know and I don't need an audience for. So it has to comes down to something better than that. And I think my favorite thing is dming with people is giving people resources, is picking them up from like the second their shelf broke and maybe they found my videos and that's a safe landing place for them and like telling them like just, just straight up nothing but validation. Like, you're right, it's a fraud. I'm not gonna shove that into a Mormon space necessarily. Um, I don't Want to like you can tag things on, on TikTok, LDS, Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints and that will get it in front of more Mormon spaces. I specifically don't do that. And if I see a Mormon Mormon, like there's different like Mormon apologist type channels and stuff. You had a nice run in with Brayden. I'm sure. As you remember that was one ex Mormon Tick tocker who did not very good things. But I don't, I like, I block people like that that I don't. They're doing their thing on their side of tick tock. I don't need them. I don't need our worlds to meet. I'm not trying to like shove my content into. In front of anyone's faces that doesn't want it. If they don't want. Want it, they can scroll on. So it's just for people that need a laugh, need validation, need any type of re. Re reaffirmation that they're okay for whatever they're doing. And honestly, like, things surprise me too. Sorry, I'm going on a rant here. But things surprise me all the time. Like when I'm in a. I was in a live stream the other day, which I like doing. Doing more than even making videos because people can. You can just start a live stream in the middle of like 11pm and people can just come in and chat with you and you can talk back and forth to people. And there was a, a boy that entered into my live stream and he said, is this a Mormon live stream? And I said no. And he said, are you LGBT friendly? And I'm like, yes, of course. What kind of question is that? And he's like. And then the next thing he said was, I'm in pain. And I was like, oh. And there was probably only 13 people in my live stream, but then all 13 of us were like, okay, what's going on? And he was saying how he's like a closeted, not cl. Sorry, out of the closet boy living with his Mormon family and he's miserable as you can expect. And like it's those types of moments that like, if you put yourself out there as like, what do I want this TikTok to be? I don't know. One night. All I need it to be is like complete and utter validation to you. 14 year old boy that has no other outlet but nobody to talk to. And if you want to come talk to me, I would just want to sit here and be like, I love you. I validate you that maybe one day you'll get out of your parents house and you'll live a healthy, vibrant life with whatever lifestyle you choose. And right now it's probably going to suck for a while but if you just want me to be your friend, like that's the cool thing that, that live streams and Tik Tok affords me to be able to do. Like back we were saying before where like would I give that up? These experiences where me and then every single person that was in the live stream all started crying as we're talking to this boy. It's like those are the type of moments would I give that up for what a Mormon has to say about me, that they don't like it? I will take constructive criticism always. But like at the end of the day the people I respect respect me and I feel good about that and I can do and the back to my name like nuance. I, it started out of just like kind of a joke that I don't like to be super black and white and dogmatic in my beliefs. I just left that and I'm open to having conversations and understanding where people are coming from. And I feel like I can do so much more by being my outspoken personality trying to be nuanced. I try to give bet the best faith interpretations of what Mormons are trying to do in my comments or whatever, whatever. I just see you as somebody who's defending the church and it hurts to hear things that you've never heard before about Joseph Smith's polygamy or you're hearing things that you just, you automatically go into like your lizard brain like, oh no, somebody's talking. Adeline at my church shut them down. Like even though it doesn't make sense, I, I just, I want to put myself in their shoes. I used to be like them. I understand that point of view and I can do more by being outspoken and seeing the best faith interpretation of arguments, seeing people where they are and how I used to be like them and what are the little breadcrumb that they need. So that's more beneficial than like sitting quiet and living a comfortable life. Right.

John Dehlin [03:40:46] So, so are you trying to destroy the church and are you trying to tear people out of the church?

Carah Burrell [03:40:52] That would never be an active goal of mine. Now I have. Yeah, it's just, that's like it's never gonna happen like that. But what do you mean? We're gonna, we're gonna chip away. You, me, every ex morant Mormon, we're going to chip away and we're going to get our message out to enough people that more and more Mormons are going to have to start actually like I didn't know the criticisms of the church, they're going to have to start being inoculated or whatever. They're going to have more and more conversations are going to have to be happening, happening about the double speak and about the truth claims of the church and the validity and historicity of the Book of Mormon. We're going to like I, I don't know about you, John, I'd love to hear your opinion on this. I believe, believe so wholeheartedly that the church in the next 20 years is going to have to abandon a historical view of the Book of Mormon and just come out that in some way, shape or form that the Lamanites and the Nephites were not actually real people. And like I know something's going to happen like that, that, that is going to be a gigantic problem for so many Mormons and I'm so happy to be on this side. Like the, the landing pad when your parachute fails and you have to fall into a pile of marshmallows. That's what I want as many ex Mormons to be marshmallows that we fall into Olympic size swimming pool that of just comfort and love and validation. As many more ex Mormons that can speak up that people can relate to and feel loved by. That's all I'm going for. The church is going to be the church. They're going to do what they're going to do. Yeah. If people want to interpret it as like tearing down the church, I don't think I, that's never really a goal that's crossed my mind chipping away at, at its power. That's always, that's always good though. Like I, I don't want the church to be any more powerful than it is, let's say.

John Dehlin [03:42:49] What are your hopes and dreams for your ex Mormon active, for nuance Ho and for maybe your future beyond even ex Mormonism? Or do you just want to kind of really sharpen your, your craft within the ex Mormon context? What are your hopes and dreams?

Carah Burrell [03:43:07] That is the million dollar question. I think about it every day. I, I would love to do more long format videos. I mean that's an easy one. Like I would love to do more YouTube videos, doing more reaction videos.

John Dehlin [03:43:20] Really?

Carah Burrell [03:43:20] Yeah. Like I like, I love Mystery Science Theater. Like I would love to do more where I'm breaking down like the Joseph Smith movie or just more things in a comedic way, but also like adding in this is the context they forgot this is where they lied to us here. You know, breaking down that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [03:43:37] But as comedy.

Carah Burrell [03:43:38] As comedy, yeah. Cuz I think for my own benefit, it's so fun to go put yourself back into a movie or whatever that you watched growing up up and being like, oh, with fresh eyes on the other side, I can see how it's propagandized too or whatever. So I deep down, like, I love joke writing. My favorite type of video, quite honestly to do are videos where I walk into savers and I just grab Mormon books and I just think of a joke from a title and that's like my favorite challenge is just can I think of a joke that has no other context besides just riffing on something? So any medium that I can go into, it just so happens that Mormonism is the one that I'm indoctrinated in. So I just have them most things to say and the, the most to play around with, to satirize in my brain. Like that just. That is effortless really is. Mormonism is just so easy for me. But like the next level down is like no one wants to hear me like riff about High School Musical or like other things that I love or like loved like I. I'm gonna try to find some other type of way that I can just still. I like joke writing. I like, like working with Zelf was super fun the other day of just going back and forth, forth and putting up some kind of funny content. So I could absolutely do that in the future without Mormonism. I don't know when that'll be because I'm quite content and happy with what I'm doing. I'll probably add in a few more things and add more to my Instagram. Right now my Instagram for anyone who's not on TikTok, I just started an Instagram so that people who are total holdouts who just think they're better than everyone else. So if they really don't want to download TikTok, I upload re upload most of my stuff just in line with the exact order that they're in on TikTok are on my Instagram and stuff. So I'll probably like add more things, but I don't know. It really would have to depend on what people want. What are people still craving out of me and what else I could offer like the ex Mormon community. Um, I'm happy in the lane that I'm in right now. But yeah, obviously branching out into other things that don't have to do with religion one day. So I have, I have, I have lofty dreams though. Like the sky's the limit with what I. What I could potentially feel like I could do. Now there's my exorm and self confidence coming in.

John Dehlin [03:45:40] Did you say what nuance hoe means? Did you already tell us that and I missed it?

Carah Burrell [03:45:44] Like, it's a play on. There's a YouTuber named Nuance Bro and I used to be friends with him and I just stole his name basically. I thought it was funny. I was like, what's the female version of that? Because I want to be able to like facilitate argument. Not argument, sorry, facilitate. Facilitate discussions in a nuanced way was my original idea before I ever started. This was, this was like a screen name years ago. And so I just thought it was funny because I never. When I started my tick tock, I didn't plan on making it X Mormon content, but the algorithm knows you so well and it just starts putting videos in your face. Like Katie, the human first videos were probably the first ones that I started to see and really being like, yes, this is good content. This is amazing. I didn't think that I had anything to say that hadn't already been said on there. And that's where I was like, you know what I really. I have more is probably around the Give thanks campaign where I was like, I have a lot to say actually and I will never be stopped. So it just got out of control after a while. But yeah, it's just a silly. And I don't want anyone to take anything I say too seriously. Like, I want to make sure that like the hoe part of the name is not supposed to be like a sexual reference. It's just supposed to be a silly reference to like, don't take anything I say too seriously because I'm still figuring it out. Out. This is not like people get the wrong idea. In my satire videos, somebody said to me once, like, nice straw man argument that you're doing there. And I was like, this is a satire, not a debate. Like, this is a silly satirical, like dialogue that I created for the purposes of comedy. I am not trying to like actually change the world in that way. Like, if I wanted to debate, you'll know I want to debate. So I, uh. Yeah. Keeping it as kind of silly and funny as possible. And yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:30] Um, so do you want to mention any of your other kind of inspiration TikTok inspirations you. Oh, the risk of doing that is

Carah Burrell [03:47:40] like when you go upstairs leaving people off Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:42] This is like Academy Awards.

Carah Burrell [03:47:44] Yeah, exactly. Like there's honestly too many. Devil Trout will always have my heart. Um, she is the exact epitome of what would have scared me. Like probably why I. Why I started my TikTok. It's cuz she has like a shaved head or she did. It was like half and it was like she just looked too much like a member of Antifa that I would not have listened to two years ago. And I was like, what if some dumb blonde suburban housewife, that's who I would have listened to two years ago. I'll be that for everyone. I'll just make sure that they see themselves in me. If you're that and then so just having as many different. Yeah. Personalities and voices as good as possible. So I love Devil Trout. I love Katie the human. Oh, Academy Awards thing is coming up right now. Oh no.

John Dehlin [03:48:28] Who are you leaving out?

Carah Burrell [03:48:29] Oh, by the way, sucks is a great one. That's my friend Sam. And there's. Oh God, I'm gonna be in so much trouble. There's so many other ones. Exmo, Panda Girl. I'm leaving everyone.

John Dehlin [03:48:47] That's fine.

Carah Burrell [03:48:48] I'm a miserable, horrible person. Ex Mormons are all gonna hate me. My mind has gone blank. Anyway.

John Dehlin [03:48:52] It's a fun community though, right?

Carah Burrell [03:48:54] Yeah. Understanding Mormonism. John de Lin. Those are good ones. Just kidding. Skip those.

John Dehlin [03:48:59] I know.

Carah Burrell [03:49:01] Yeah. NuanceHoe is pretty much what you need. And then Zelf started on Tick Tock. That's what our collaboration was about. It's because they started a Tick Tock channel under my preference pressure.

John Dehlin [03:49:09] That's great.

Carah Burrell [03:49:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:49:11] We need more self.

Carah Burrell [03:49:12] Yeah. So they have. They're gonna have probably some hilarious con. It's so much fun to be able to write something and film it and put it up immediately. So I think I got them hooked.

John Dehlin [03:49:21] All right, so we're kind of at the end. So what do you want to make sure and say that you didn't get to say? What else do you want to share as we. As we close our four hour interview with Nuanceo?

Carah Burrell [03:49:33] Oh, how long are we we at?

John Dehlin [03:49:34] 3 hours and 50 minutes.

Carah Burrell [03:49:36] That is a long time. I hope everyone is really enjoying this.

John Dehlin [03:49:40] It's longer than 59 seconds.

Carah Burrell [03:49:41] Yeah. I have nothing else to add except for everyone that I forgot on Ex Mormon TikTok. Please forgive me. They the community there is just really good and I hope people will see that they don't have to just watch because I used to watch Ex Mormon TikTok until the lies of the Mormon Church got too much and then I joined in and, and so look at me now. Like the, your potential can just absolutely soar once you put yourself out there. And the TikTok is a great medium for that. So not only do I think people should join TikTok, I think they should also start be making videos and share their opinions and also become an ex Mormon activist if they have it within them. Because who would have known this is where I would have been two years ago.

John Dehlin [03:50:25] So what's your final testimony? If you had to bear a testimony of, of life and. Or ex Mormon activism, what's your testimony?

Carah Burrell [03:50:30] I'd like to bear my testimony of coffee. I love my cold brew and my mug and beans.

John Dehlin [03:50:36] All right.

Carah Burrell [03:50:36] I'm just referencing a video I made. Just. No, my, my, my final thoughts and parting words is to remember that empathy and seeing people as products of their conditioning and, and their genes and trying to give people the best faith interpretation of why they're acting the way they are is the first and best step to making this world a better place. And loving people that have totally different beliefs and values and just seeing what molded them to be that the way that they are and the like we were saying. The most beautiful part is like I have so much such. I am so non judgmental like of Mormons, of anyone on this other side of Mormonism now. It's like a beautiful place to be in now that I just, I would encourage Mormons and ex Mormons and everyone should just be patient with people and ask questions and be interested in why people believe what they believe. And if you are upset with the, the, the, the opinions and beliefs that other people hold, they're, they're probably feel the same way about you. So be the model for how you think people should have conversations and how people should treat each other. That's also kind of what I want to get across with my nuance ho name that. Like there's, there's a lot of culty behavior in the church and I don't want to carry that over into like ex Mormon culture either. I want to be able to, to have facilitating healthy discussions that are friendly and funny and positive. So I hope that that's what people see in me if I am open to constructive criticism, if it's not. And I just want to be a one voice of many speaking out that if you feel like you've deconstructed the church enough and it's time to move on, but you're scared that there could be like really beautiful, healthy growth, growth And a really vibrant life on the other side.

John Dehlin [03:52:47] How do people support you and or give you money?

Carah Burrell [03:52:50] I have got to figure that out. I gotta monetize this somehow. I'm too much of a cash cow. No kidding.

John Dehlin [03:52:55] I haven't made you got the Redbubble thing.

Carah Burrell [03:52:57] I actually make money from Redbubble supporting

John Dehlin [03:53:00] you still supporting your merch.

Carah Burrell [03:53:01] I do. Yeah. So I just thought it would be a fun graphic design experience to try to turn some of my jokes that people like into, like, they're on T shirts and mugs and stickers and stuff.

John Dehlin [03:53:13] So what kind of things can people get? Just describe them.

Carah Burrell [03:53:16] So, like, in one of my videos, I said, like, you.

John Dehlin [03:53:20] Here's what I'm doing right now. I'm going to say that everyone who's listening who buys a mug or a shirt or a piece of merch from NuanceHoe will be invited to a party that we throw when Covid's over with Nuance. And you'll get to meet her. Hang out in our studio, and we'll have a blast. But you only get it if you buy a shirt or a mug or something from New Outsider not or sticker. Tell them what some of these things say.

Carah Burrell [03:53:47] Okay. So I had a video where I said, I called the church a Rocky Mountain Bible fan fiction sex cult. So people liked that. So I turned that into a graphic design, which had a great attention to detail because I put like the. The fig leaf apron across, like, this beautiful rainbow thing going across it. So it's just kind of a fun graphic design experience. So that is available on every sweatshirt and T shirt and color and mug that you could ever desire. Most people keep buying it in yellow. I don't think they realize there's like, everything is available on there pretty much of like, mugs and stickers and just a bunch of other jokes. I have a video. My. One of my very favorite videos is doing a satire of the this is the show with Kwaku, the apologetics video video. And I was like, they don't have enough views on this? I bet I could make a commercial for them. And I just satirized what their audience basically sounds like. And at one point, I'm like, asking questions is for. So people liked that. So I have asking questions is for merch I don't like. You don't need to wear it on a T shirt. It could just be like, oh, it's actually on my. Bam. Talk about advertising.

John Dehlin [03:54:49] Where is it?

Carah Burrell [03:54:49] Sure, right there.

John Dehlin [03:54:51] Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:54:52] And I had another video where I said said through water Bottle. I told people that I used to be a critically unaware non thinker which stands another way to say the C word. So I put that on a sticker as well. That's in my store. So that was what John was referencing four hours ago about I might be a little raunchy is I do carry around a water bottle that in one way or another has some swear words on it. So in my merch store. But yeah, I actually don't make a lot of money because the margins aren't that well. I just thought it would be kind of a fun, fun experience to do I make maybe 20 or 30% margin.

John Dehlin [03:55:24] But so how do people find your Redbubble account? So they.

Carah Burrell [03:55:28] If you're on my Tik Tok everything is the link. There's a link tree link in my Tik Tok and on my Instagram or if you go on redbubble and type in nuanceo, you'll find my store and you can get. I mean I only have a few projects. I put like a door dash Jesus. People liked my joke. I did a tour of my parents house. Did you see that one where I did a tour around my Mormon parents parents house. And I was really worried because my, my older sister follows me and I was like she's going to be mad that I that's again if my parents find out about this, the worst thing they're gonna be like you were making fun of our house. And that's. They'll probably be more, more mad at that than anything else I said about the church. But my mom has wall to wall Jesus in our house and I was like got every Jesus, we got Santa Jesus, we got Doordash Jesus. So people liked that. So I did an illustration. I had to like most of these. I had to pay an illustrator. So that's why I mean like I don't make make. I haven't made back my money yet on like what I had to pay to get my store up. But it was just like a fun. I probably broken even maybe on what I had to pay to get it up. So if anyone wants to actually help me make money through redbubble, of course that's always encouraged and I always like to give out free merch to anyone who is a, a super fan as well. So.

Merch, Support, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [03:56:35] All right, so if you buy a mug or hat or a you know, shirt stick sticker and you take a photo of yourself with the merch on from Nuance Hope, yeah You'll be entered into sort of the free admission to the Party with nuance. So that will happen once. Covid chills the freak out. Is that all right?

Carah Burrell [03:56:57] That's a great party. I love that idea.

John Dehlin [03:56:59] Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:57:00] Yeah. And anyone else who wants to DM me later and say, hey, kid, you got something. I need your name and lights one day. And they, like, have this great ambition for me of what they think. Think I could do to make money. My. I'm listening. Because I feel like I'm gonna be doing this a while, but I do. It feels weird trying to monetize anything right now because I'm just having fun. Like, up to this point, if you watch my TikToks, it is just me having fun, not trying to, like, actually do anything too purposeful. So if I actually started making money, I'd probably take it more seriously. Then you'll really see the best content. Maybe so. Or it may be the worst. Maybe money will go to my head. So I don't know. I have. I have a lot of options open to me, and I just want to keep doing this for as. I don't know, forever. Not too bad. I just. If anyone has any ideas. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [03:57:48] All right, well, thank you so much, Carah, for coming on Mormon Stories podcast and telling your story. I really. I just really. It's weird because I've been doing this 16 years or 20 years, but when somebody steps in the arena, they really get my respect. And so you have my respect. You say nice things to me. I'm telling you, you have my respect.

Carah Burrell [03:58:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:58:12] And so thank you for doing what you do.

Carah Burrell [03:58:14] Thank you, John, for. I mean, this opportunity was incredible, but, like, would I even. Would Zelf exist? Would I exist if Zelf didn't exist? And you just. Everything that you have spawned since how many years that Mormon Stories foundation even started?

John Dehlin [03:58:28] Like, 16 years.

Carah Burrell [03:58:28] Yeah. That's incredible.

John Dehlin [03:58:29] Incredible.

Carah Burrell [03:58:30] So I'm here today because of you stepping into this arena. So thank you.

John Dehlin [03:58:35] My pleasure. All right, we'll stay in touch.

Carah Burrell [03:58:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:58:38] And listeners, thanks for joining us today. Check out NuanceHoe Hoe on Tick Tock, redbubble Instagram. Support her and her great work. Support all the ex. Shout out to all the awesome everyone out there.

Carah Burrell [03:58:53] I couldn't even. You'll know that I couldn't even memorize the own songs I've written. So coming up with screen names off the top of my head was difficult. So forgive me.

John Dehlin [03:59:01] Yeah. But a shout out to x woman TikTok. Keep up the great work.

Carah Burrell [03:59:04] Definitely shout out to them.

John Dehlin [03:59:05] You guys are awesome. And thanks to everyone who supports Me and the Open Stories Foundation. Thanks for everyone who donates to make all this possible. Thanks to Brooklyn Alden, who does our editing, to Gerardo, who does our thumbnails and does all the lighting and cinematography. But thanks to all the donors. Thanks to our board. And then if you don't, if you like this programming, if you like that there's a platform that can help launch other great, successful people in this space, please do consider supporting us. At MormonStories.org, you can click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we're fully transparent. Your donations are tax deductible. And all the money you donate will go to creating a platform and sustaining a platform to help people in and out of Mormonism have healing and growth. And so thanks for your support. Support us if you can. But more importantly today, support Nuance. So throw her some bones. You need a freaking Venmo or something or PayPal just so people can throw you some bones.

Carah Burrell [04:00:05] I could do that between now and when this is. I don't know. I don't know that that's the route. Okay, so I'm so desperate to send me money. My DMs are open. Like I can. There's no reason to hold back. I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:00:16] All right, so last thing, I'm going to challenge you. You okay? Commitment pattern. I'm going to challenge you to create a nuance of Venmo and PayPal.

Carah Burrell [04:00:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:00:23] Right.

Carah Burrell [04:00:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [04:00:24] Hope you have the Gmail account for Nuance. Ho.

Carah Burrell [04:00:27] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:00:28] And then I'm going to challenge my listeners and viewers to throw her some money just because people deserve to get paid for their good work. So.

Carah Burrell [04:00:37] That is so nice. I did not expect that for you to even say I did.

John Dehlin [04:00:40] Will you do what I asked? Will you?

Carah Burrell [04:00:42] Yeah, I think I could work on that. Yeah. My husband will be very excited.

John Dehlin [04:00:44] Like I said, Venmo.

Carah Burrell [04:00:46] Yeah, I think you deserve to get paid.

John Dehlin [04:00:47] I told X Mormon Mindy the same thing.

Carah Burrell [04:00:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:00:50] You guys freaking deserve to get paid. You should get paid.

Carah Burrell [04:00:53] Yeah, I could probably start a Patreon eventually and just start producing like YouTube content and Patreon content.

John Dehlin [04:00:59] So much work. Patreon. So much work. Just to just think about all the different categories of donors and yeah, keeping track of who you give what thing to, it's just too much for me. But the reason why I want people to make money, the reason why I want to make money and why I want to help other people make money is, is that makes it sustainable. Because if people get paid, then they can keep doing it. And if they don't get paid, they burn out, lose interest, have to do other things, and then great work dies.

Carah Burrell [04:01:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:01:27] And so that's why I believe passionately in getting paid and helping other people get paid. So freaking get paid. Nuance.

Carah Burrell [04:01:33] Oh, thank you. Okay.

John Dehlin [04:01:34] Will you get paid?

Carah Burrell [04:01:35] Yeah. All right. All right. You've convinced me. I guess I will take money, get freaking paid.

John Dehlin [04:01:40] All right. All right, all right. All right, everybody. Thanks so much. We'll see you again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, be good to each other, and thank you. Thanks again. So bye. All right.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.