Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Tim Kosnoff
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing Tim Kosnoff and the Episode
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is September 28, 2022 and we are super excited for today's episode. We have back in studio attorney Tim Koznoff. For those of you who haven't been following Mormon stories in the past several years or recently, we have covered for at least a decade or more of the prevalence of sexual abuse within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And as of recently and historically in the past we have covered the Mormon Church's relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. And then recently we had Tim Kosnoff on in a two part series. He's an attorney, he's done some representation of abuse victims, maybe has represented more abuse victims within a Mormon context than anyone alive. But but we had him in a two part series. In the second part talk about the Mormon Church's relationship with the Boy Scouts of America historically culminating in the bankruptcy of the Boy Scouts of America or the attempted bankruptcy by the Boy Scouts of America in response to 80,000 plus direct claims of sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts with I think Mormon troops representing something like 40% of the total number of Boy Scout troops. Tim can correct me on this, but that was where we were just a few weeks ago when we had Tim on. There's been a really important update relative to the Boy Scouts of America bankruptcy that we want to let everyone know about. And there actually is a really important action item from today's episode and I'm going to start with the action item and then we're going to talk about what's happened and what's happening and then we're going to end with the action item again. But the action item is, as I understand it, is that if you experienced some sort of abuse, specifically sexual abuse, and you resided in the state of California and the abuse happened tangentially with your involvement in a Mormon related Boy Scout troop, but then the abuse happened, let's just say outside of the Boy Scout troop context, let's just say in a ward building by the Scout leader or while you're home teaching with the person that you met as a Scout Scout leader or in the home of the Scout leader or your house in a non scouting context, you literally have a window of like two or three months before the state of California will no longer consider your claim. But if you take action now and find an attorney and file a claim now of abuse within a Mormon context related to a Boy Scout, a Mormon chosen Boy Scout leader, then you have an opportunity of, of a case and potentially of damages or reparations for your involvement. And, and so that's the action item. In the end, we're going to be giving you at least 1, 1, 8. We're going to be giving you one number you can call to get representation or to be considered for representation, but also you can find any attorney you want to represent you. But, you know, Tim, now I'll introduce Tim. Tim is appearing, in my view, as we've discussed this beforehand, as a public service, because otherwise, how is, how is, how are any of you going to find out that if you're one of these California residents that experienced abuse in a Mormon scouting context, how are you going to find out that your window is closing in December? And so we're going to do all that. We're going to talk about what happened in the bankruptcy case, what its status is, why the Mormon Church for the most part was removed from the bankruptcy settlement. And, and what that means in terms of the Mormon Church's liability going forward. I think it's exposure grows. I don't want to give away, you know, what we're going to be talking about and then of course, what you can do about it. So, Tim, that's my attempt at an introduction. Now you can correct me and tell me. Pull your microphone a little bit closer.
Tim Kosnoff [00:04:16] No, I can tell me how. I do think you've said it so well. I should probably just get up and go now because you've just completely preempted me. No, it was. You nailed it. I hope I could be as clear as you just were. I always have a tendency to, you know, go down into the weeds, but here we go. So the last time I was on, which was, I think in early August, the bankruptcy confirmation had not taken place. There was a plan, it was presented, but the bankruptcy judge had not confirmed it. And until she confirmed it, we were all just groping around in the dark, not really knowing what was going to happen. Now that she's confirmed is going to wander off into a pell hell, a pellet hell. Most of the insurance companies have appealed and they will appeal for a very long time. There are some incredibly important issues that, that I think ultimately are going to end up in the Supreme Court, and that's going to take a while. So all of these abuse survivors, Mormon and non Mormon, who filed claims promised that they were going to get some kind of fair treatment, didn't. Under this plan, the average award is going to be under $15,000. And some people may only get $1,700 because it's scaled depending upon how bad the statute of limitations is in your state. So in my opinion and the opinion of many survivors, it's an awful plan.
Background on BSA Abuse and the Mormon Church
John Dehlin [00:05:57] So. So let's do this in like a minute or two. For those who didn't watch your previous episode, who are just going to stumble on this, can we capture in like two or three minutes the history of the Boy Scouts with abuse, how, how that got them in trouble, how the Mormon Church was tied to it, how that led to the bankruptcy and, and where we were at the end of last episode in just like a two or three minute recap.
Tim Kosnoff [00:06:21] Sure. The Boy Scouts of America was founded in roughly 1916. It grew to be the largest youth serving organization in the country. And it operated through local churches, civic organizations, and they were the ones that ran their programs on the local level. And anybody that had contact with the Boy Scouts, it was through their church or the Moose Lodge or the Elks or their school who sponsored the troop was responsible for hiring the Scout leader and ensuring that the program was safe. The problem was, is that it was never safe and it was a feeding ground for child molesters. And the problem for the Boy Scouts national was they knew about it and they monitored and kept records, but they never warned parents or Scouts about, about the risk of child molestation and scouting. So I've been working these kinds of cases since 1996 and have read thousands of these Boy Scout perversion files, as they came to be called, and could see that this has been a widespread problem. So the Boy Scouts, facing several hundred lawsuits in 2018, elected to file Chapter 11 bankruptcy to be able to discharge those claims and all other claims in a plan of reorganization in which they would put forward some amount of money and get a full release and be able to reorganize, become the new Boy Scouts of America and move forward, having shed themselves of all these liabilities, just like General Motors and any corporation does. So this bankruptcy was filed in February of 2020. It's dragged on this long two and a half years. There are many problems with it, technically.
John Dehlin [00:08:24] Talk about how the Mormon Church was connected to the bankruptcy.
Tim Kosnoff [00:08:26] The Mormon Church was the largest sponsoring organization of scouting, with roughly 35 to 40% of all Scout troops in the United States were sponsored by a Mormon ward. And the Mormon Church goes back to the very beginning with the Boy Scouts of America. They were the first chartered organization and they ran the organization as their exclusive youth program for men for almost a century. For almost a century, it was Almost obligatory.
John Dehlin [00:08:57] Yeah.
Tim Kosnoff [00:08:58] The scenario with a Mormon sponsored troop which was identified by the bankruptcy judge was that Scouting and the religious program of the Mormon Church were so intertwined that it was almost impossible to differentiate them. The Boy Scouts had cut a deal in the context of the bankruptcy where the Mormon church would pay $250 million, assign their boy Scout insurance coverage which covered them for claims occurring post 1975 and they would get a bath. And it wasn't just Boy Scout cases, it was every abuse case. They were going to be getting a release for this. The judge said, not so fast.
John Dehlin [00:09:48] So the Mormon Church kind of worked with the Boy Scouts to say in this bankruptcy, the Mormon church offered what? 250 million.
Tim Kosnoff [00:09:57] 250 million to go towards claims. Only claims involving the Mormon Church, not generally.
John Dehlin [00:10:05] Right.
Tim Kosnoff [00:10:06] So they, that was another thing that was problematic, that they wanted to carve out that 250 million to go only to claimants who were abused within the Mormon Church Boy Scout program.
John Dehlin [00:10:20] So, so 250 million in partnership and then if this got approved, then it was like a billion dollars total. Right.
Tim Kosnoff [00:10:28] Well, you know, then the church is exonerated. That was the deal in bankruptcy. It's all behind closed doors, smoke filled rooms, let's make a deal. And the Boy Scouts were desperate to get out of bankruptcy and so they would do anything, cut any kind of deal, whether it was in the interests of the victims or not, so that they could get out of bankruptcy and start over in the context of dwindling cash flow and to the point where they might not even be able to survive bankruptcy because they were running out of money so quickly. So, so the judge sat on all of the briefing and the arguments that went on for almost a month back in March.
John Dehlin [00:11:12] And really clearly and everyone, if you want the details on this, go back to the previous episode I did with Tim. You were saying that even though too many of us, $250 million offered by the Mormon Church would seem like an enormous amount of money. Well, number one, an admission of guilt or, or something problematic. But also to many of us, it would seem like an enormous amount of money. Wow, how generous. Your summary of what that $250 million or offer amounted to on behalf of the Mormon Church, your summary of that would be what?
Tim Kosnoff [00:11:45] I mean, they were facing thousands and thousands of claim, that is the Mormon
John Dehlin [00:11:49] Church alone, which would have made them liable for potentially.
Tim Kosnoff [00:11:53] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:11:54] How much?
Tim Kosnoff [00:11:54] So this was billions. Like, well, you know, in my experience, the sort of the average settlement is between 400 and $700,000 verdicts. Can go, you know, to the moon. So tremendous exposure, almost impossible to put a finger on it. But big.
John Dehlin [00:12:15] But, but much bigger than 250 million.
Tim Kosnoff [00:12:17] Much bigger than 250 million. So they got the deal of the century.
John Dehlin [00:12:25] Well, they proposed the deal they proposed
Tim Kosnoff [00:12:27] from the Boy Scouts and for most of the plan, the judge said she approved it, I'll approve it. Even though there were a lot of objections from insurance companies, other lawyers representing claimants who thought it was a bum deal for victims. I was among them. And there are some hot button bankruptcy law and constitutional law issues that in my opinion make it more probable than not that this is going to get reversed anyways on appeal. But it's going to take a long time. So I'm here to talk about what her ruling did with respect to the Mormon Church deal and how that also affects people who were abused in not in the Mormon Church. And here's what I want to talk about within the plan. At the last minute, the parties came up after her preliminary opinion in which she said I'm not going to approve the terms of this settlement with the Mormon Church because it's just too broad.
The Bankruptcy Settlement and Judge's Ruling
John Dehlin [00:13:34] Broad meaning what?
Tim Kosnoff [00:13:36] Broad in the sense that the Mormon Church wants releases for all of their sexual abuse. Boy Scout related, non Boy Scout related. It could be completely non Boy Scout related.
John Dehlin [00:13:48] That doesn't even make sense.
Tim Kosnoff [00:13:49] It doesn't make any sense at all.
John Dehlin [00:13:51] I mean it makes sense that they would propose that.
Tim Kosnoff [00:13:53] Oh absolutely. And it was, you know, but that
John Dehlin [00:13:58] makes no sense that somehow they could, the, the court could say any non Boy Scout related abuse you now no longer are responsible for within a Boy Scouts bank bankruptcy settlement like that.
Tim Kosnoff [00:14:10] Well that's, and that's, that's exactly right. But she more or less ruled the same thing was true with respect to many other chartering organizations who are getting really broad releases and they're not without putting in any money into the pot. So While it's now 22.4 billion, when you subtract the 250 billion out from what you know, the, the proposal was before, and then another 10 or 15% for the administration of the trust, then subtract the attorney's fees, the clients come up with, you know, peanuts.
John Dehlin [00:14:56] So, okay, so, so the, this judge reviewed the original proposal and said I've got concerns about the Mormon Church part of this.
Tim Kosnoff [00:15:07] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:15:07] And what happened after that.
Tim Kosnoff [00:15:09] And the key to it was the church was getting a complete release for everything related to the Mormon Church, Boy Scout or not. So she said, I can't approve that. That's way too broad. I don't have the jurisdiction to do that.
John Dehlin [00:15:25] And she had already made that statement before I interviewed you, correct? Correct. So at the time I interviewed you, you were waiting for what?
Tim Kosnoff [00:15:33] A final, final rule, whether she was going to confirm the remainder of the plan or what would change. Will the Mormon Church come back and say, okay, we'll put up a billion dollars, not 250 million. You know, is there some number that we could put up that would get us these broad releases? And in the end, what they decided was we're going to take our $250 million back and they have the church.
John Dehlin [00:15:58] Yeah. Okay.
Tim Kosnoff [00:15:59] And we'll take our chances with these other cases.
John Dehlin [00:16:04] So the Mormon Church withdrew from the Boy Scouts bankruptcy deal completely with one exception.
Tim Kosnoff [00:16:10] They were named as an additional insured on policies issued to the Boy Scouts of America in the Boy Scouts of America insurance program which began in 1976. So for all those claims that arose in 1976 and later the Mormon Church is released, except for the mixed claim situation, which we'll dive into a little bit more. And pre 76 claims, which are the largest percentage, they have not been released because they haven't paid for those releases. And, and what they did propose for those releases the court has rejected. So, so let me, let me make sure I understand.
John Dehlin [00:16:59] So, so, so the church, the Mormon Church, once it got the idea that this judge was not going to prove it, you're guessing that behind the scenes the Church tried to float a number that would be acceptable to the judge, and the judge in the Mormon Church would not have been able to arrive at a mutually agreeable number. So the Church would have said, then we're pulling out. Is that what you're saying likely would happen?
Tim Kosnoff [00:17:25] That discussion could have happened, but the way the judge wrote her opinion, she said there's no factual evidence in the record. For me to determine what the total of non scouting related exposure of the Mormon Church would be. That was never presented. It would just be an arbitrary guess on my part. Is fair 500 million enough? Is a billion enough? Is 3 billion enough? I can't make a decision if I don't have evidence. And none of that evidence was presented at the confirmation trial. So I believe that there's no number that the judge could have approved without evidence.
John Dehlin [00:18:05] So, so the Church withdraws from the bankruptcy suit really quickly. What is that? Okay, and we can talk about the 1976 insurance exception and before and after. But before we do that, just broadly speaking, what does this do to the Mormon Church's? Liability to, with or exposure to withdraw from the Boy Scouts bankruptcy over. Like, how was the church and Kurt McConkey feeling knowing that they had to withdraw from this bankruptcy?
Tim Kosnoff [00:18:35] Well, from what I understand, they believe that they have the lawyers and the system in place to be able to resolve these claims on either an individual basis or in clusters or however they. So I think they're thinking we can do better negotiating with these lawyers on our own going down the road. So goodbye Boy Scouts. We broke with you four, four years ago. Anyway, we think we can handle this better outside of the bankruptcy than by, you know, continuing to participate in this bankruptcy.
John Dehlin [00:19:17] So they, but I guess I'm saying if they had tried to be a part of the bankruptcy and then were kind of cut out of it, I would assume they would be disappointed because they would think now we have more exposure than we did before.
Tim Kosnoff [00:19:32] Well, like I said, I mean if that, if that deal, if she'd approved that deal and it would have eventually been affirmed on appeal, then it would have been a great result from them. So in a sense they reached so far they had to realize that it was a stretch. But hey, you know, Hail Mary pass, you know, maybe that's the wrong example. I don't know what. There's something.
John Dehlin [00:19:54] 250 million is cheap to get exonerated.
Tim Kosnoff [00:19:56] To get exonerated, not just for Boy Scout cases, but all of your sexual liability over the past century, whether it is connected to scouting or not. Yeah, I mean it's just astonishing, you know, accomplishment if you could do it. But they didn't. Okay, she wouldn't. She made a lot of mistakes in this bankruptcy confirmation, but that wasn't one of them. So what I'm here to, to, to talk about mostly is to get folks to understand that because you haven't been hearing this from the bankruptcy official committee, the tort claimants committee, they've just gone radio silent. Most of the lawyers who are handling claims in this case, they aren't from a sexual abuse background. They don't even understand this. And frankly, you know, it's taken me several read throughs of this 600 page document to begin to understand it. And this is what I'm trying to communicate to folks, the key takeaways. And here it is. And let's talk first about the Mormon Church cases. But it could also apply to people who are abused in the Catholic Church, the Elks Club, Methodists, Southern Baptists. This concept of mixed claim applies not just to the LDS church but to all the other organizations. And it Says this. If you were abused in a Scouting related activity, a Scout meeting, a scout camp, an approved scouting activity, anything related to Scouting, then that is going to get channeled through the bankruptcy and you're going to get whatever you, you're going to get, which isn't much. But on the other hand, if the scouting was mixed, excuse me, if the abuse was mixed, maybe you met the, the abuser through Scouting, but most of the abuse occurred in another context. He took you to his apartment, he took you elsewhere. Or maybe he was your youth leader or youth pastor, home teacher. Home teacher. Or he was a neighbor or a
John Dehlin [00:22:06] bishop or a bishopric member.
Tim Kosnoff [00:22:07] A bishop or, or, or, or, or was just, you know, you were, it was. The abuse in Scouting was peripheral to the, to the abuse. Well, for all of that, I mean, I don't even call it mixed claim. It's a claim against the Mormon Church or any of those other sponsoring organizations because it's not covered by the bankruptcy. They don't get released for that by signing away their post 75 Boy Scouts of America insurance or even post 75 insurance. It's a mixed claim. It doesn't fall under the umbrella of I was abused in Scouting. Yeah, you were abused in Scouting, but you were also abused outside. So with respect to that part of your claim, it's still live, but you can lose it, particularly in California, because the window to be able to bring a suit and stop the running of the statute of limitations, which runs out December 31st of this year. After that you will be time barred. And if you had thought about bringing a claim directly against the entity that was responsible for your abuse in California, you've got until December 31st. Once you file that lawsuit, it'll stop the running of the statute of limitations and you're good. But if you wait until after December 31st, you've lost a very important property right that you may have. And if you were expecting to get justice in the Boy Scouts of America bankruptcy, you didn't get it. And I'm here to tell you there's still a path for some of you, not all of you, but for some of you. And this is also true with respect to people who were abused in Oregon and Washington, because those states are still going to be available because of their laws on statute of limitations. They're very victim friendly. So if you were abused in any of those states, you need to call your lawyer and say, I heard Koznoff and he was saying, I've got an avenue for real recovery in this case because of this mixed claim business in the plan, what can you tell me about that? That's what they should be doing. That's what we're doing with respect to our clients, is we're reaching out to them and we're asking them whether it abused. They were abused outside of scouting as well as in Scouting. And we're discovering that particularly in the Mormon Church, because scouting is so intertwined with the church itself, that there were many, if not most instances where these were mixed claims or they weren't even mixed with Boy Scouts at all. They were just claims against the Mormon Church because there was almost no connection to the, to the Boy Scouts of America. So that's, that's the key takeaway, which is there's something that's happened here, and unless you understand how this is going to affect your rights, you could lose out on something important, particularly in those states earlier, in the state of California where it's so urgent that they act now.
John Dehlin [00:25:24] Okay, so I'm hearing you say at least a couple things. One is that the, the Boy Scouts of America bankruptcy plan or proposal has been approved by the judge and that it's a disappointment to. For victims overall. Are you, are you saying that?
Tim Kosnoff [00:25:44] Well, yes. I mean, it's.
John Dehlin [00:25:47] Was it approved by the judge?
Tim Kosnoff [00:25:48] It was approved by the judge, but it's not effective and it won't be effective until it goes through the appeals process. Okay, so everybody who's thinking they're going to get a check next spring. No way.
John Dehlin [00:25:59] Yeah.
Tim Kosnoff [00:26:00] It's going to be years. Okay, so.
John Dehlin [00:26:02] And victims, in your view, victims have not been financially recompensed adequately by, by the plan as it currently states?
Tim Kosnoff [00:26:13] No, I mean, it's just absurd. We talked about this the last time, you know, some boy, you know, raped repeatedly over years, you know, and he's in a favorable state like New York had a window, New Jersey had a window, or California, he's looking at an award probably around 51,000. If it happened in a place like Utah, which is a very bad state, unfriendly to. Unfriendly to victims, or Maryland or a bunch of other states, you might be looking at 1700-3500 for that kind of. I mean, it's. Fender benders get paid more than what these men are getting. And it's appalling that these lawyers who hold themselves out as advocates for victims caved in and supported this plan. And so I'm rooting for the insurance companies who are filing appeals. I'm rooting that this thing gets reversed because this justice would have been in the neighborhood of 75 to $100 billion for 84,000 men. Then we're talking about average, just average settlement values for this kind of abuse. So I'm scrambling to try and find a path. And when I read the provisions on this mixed claim, I thought, wow, particularly with respect to the Mormon Church, because it is different than other organizations where they might just. The other organizations maybe provide the meeting room or the church basement, maybe they weren't involved in the selection of the Scout leader and so forth, and they've got exposure to that extent. But in most instances, when you think about it, the abuser wants to get the kid as isolated as he can. And yeah, kids can get abused on campouts and at camp meetings, but that's risky for the abuser. Better to develop a relationship, groom the boy, go to the parents and say, I want to take little Johnny out for some merit badge training, you know, not approved. The parents take him at his word. He takes him back to his apartment or takes him some other place and abuses him. That is not a Scouting claim. That's a separate claim against the organization that was sponsoring that troop and had a duty to run it in such a way that they weren't exposing children to that kind of risk.
Who Qualifies to File a Claim
John Dehlin [00:28:46] Okay, so we mentioned California and we mentioned the 1976 sort of delineation. And I just want to be really clear about this. If you lived in California in a Mormon context and were abused by a. By someone associated with the Boy Scouts, but also in your ward outside of a Boy Scout activity, can you. Can you file your claim whether the abuse happened before or after 1976?
Tim Kosnoff [00:29:14] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:29:14] Okay, so. So for those of you who lived in California who were abused within and without of a Boy Scouting context, within a Mormon Boy Scout context, you can file the claim. You can meet with an attorney and potentially file a lawsuit, but your time runs out December 31st, is that right?
Tim Kosnoff [00:29:34] Correct. And well said. And I'll add one additional thing. You may be somebody who meets that criterion, but you never filed a claim in the bankruptcy. Doesn't matter with respect to these claims, the mixed claim, it's actually just a claim. You're not too late because you didn't file a claim in the bankruptcy. You can still come forward as long as California stays open and Oregon and Washington are almost. They're practically open all the time. So the difficulty is it's hard to find a lawyer that, you know, can. Can explain this to you, but we're out sounding the alarm to let people Know, and we wouldn't be in such a rush except for the fact that this window in California is closing and there is something on the order of 3,000 LDS claims in California alone. So that's a lot of people. And there may be others who didn't come forward and file their proof of claim by November 16, 2020, and think that they're just, you know, that they're not able to do this. Well, that's not true, but you need to talk to an attorney that knows the intricacies of this system. And I know a lot of this probably just sounds, you know, but that's why I'm saying, you know, call me. I'm not asking you to hire me. In fact, I probably am not going to be able to represent many of these individuals who may want to come forward. But there's a need for accurate information, and I can see they're not getting it from anybody associated with the Boy Scouts bankruptcy.
John Dehlin [00:31:26] And, and also, I just want to make sure I understand. If you were abused in a purely Boy Scout LDS context prior to 76, you can still, in California sue the Mormon Church for that. Is that right?
Tim Kosnoff [00:31:41] No, that in that instance, that would be.
John Dehlin [00:31:43] Because that'd be pre insurance.
Tim Kosnoff [00:31:45] Well, let me put it this way. Yeah, pre 70. That's right. So pre 76, that is pre. The boy Scouts insurance program. The Boy Scouts have no deal. And so they're going to have to defend those cases and the church as well.
John Dehlin [00:32:02] Right.
Tim Kosnoff [00:32:02] I'm sorry, I misspoke. The Church is going to have to defend those cases. The church is only protected with respect to those cases that were insured by the Post 75, the BSA insurance program before that. Yeah, they're. They're just in the same position they were before the Boy Scouts filed bankruptcy. They're just exposed.
John Dehlin [00:32:24] Got it. Okay. I want to do something that's kind of delicate and, and difficult to do, but I believe in transparency. And you and I talked about doing this beforehand. So. So I'm not. I'm not springing this on you on Mormon stories. I've never done payola. I've never done endorsements. I've never done sponsorships. Like, I don't take. I don't, you know, take money to interview people or, or have part of my fundraising efforts, like, hey, if you pay me, I'll interview you. And I've never taken sponsorships that I'm aware of, paid sponsorships, ever. We just rely on donations and, and, you know, know, YouTube ads. So, you know, it's not Lost on me. And it's probably not lost on a lot of our viewership that you are an attorney. That is, I mean, I know you were in retirement just a few years ago, but, but it's not lost on, on maybe many of us, that you are an attorney who, you know, in a sense, if you end up representing in the past, present or future, some of these clients that you could stand to make money off of these settlements. And so some would say, well, that's, you know, you're coming across, you know, Tim Kosnoff as like a hero attorney out to support victims. And yet really what, you know, they would say, well, Tim, what you're really about is you're just, you're just here to drum up more business so that you can make money. Now, on my perspective, I'm aware of that and I talked to you about that. I don't know how else. I'm not educated enough to be able to represent what's going on in these cases. So I don't know how else to cover this than to bring on someone who I would consider to be the world's expert in class action sexual abuse law cases like this. And that's you. And, and so, so anyway, I talked to you about like on the one hand, wanting to maintain, let's just say, journalistic independence or integrity, but, but also knowing that you have a financial interest in coming on. And I, and I teed this up ahead of time and you said you were okay discussing this transparently.
Conflicts of Interest and Survivor Advocacy
Tim Kosnoff [00:34:41] Sure.
John Dehlin [00:34:41] So what would, what would. And I'm just going to read, and this is a tough comment I'm getting, probably from someone who isn't a fan. They're saying drumming up California business as hero lawyer when in fact this guy. Silence. This just came in. Silences all Mormon victims by taking settlements from the Mormon Church. No NDAs, no nondisclosure agreements. I don't even know what all that means. But, but let's just talk transparency transparently about what some people might express as concerns about conflicts of interest or motive.
Tim Kosnoff [00:35:16] I think it's a, it's a fair question. But I would just note, I mean, if I wanted to do this, you know, you've been inviting me to come on the show for years. Yeah, and that's right, you know, I confirmed. I just, I didn't, I wasn't really interested. You know, I've, I've had a good career. You know, I, I don't, I don't really need to do cases or drum up cases. And yeah, it's I settle cases, but I've also tried more cases than any other lawyer in the country. So I've fought the Mormon Church. But as we talked about the last time, clients most of the time don't want to carry on that fight and fight the church. And a lot of times it doesn't make economic sense for them or me. And so my job is to serve them. And if they say I want to settle, that's what we do, because the client is the boss. So that's my answer to your questioner.
John Dehlin [00:36:12] Yeah, some people don't want to go through the time and the expense and the excruciating emotional turmoil of a lawsuit where you may not have the outcome you want when you're facing billions of dollars behind the top, some of the top law firms in the world. Is that right? Well, that.
Tim Kosnoff [00:36:30] That's right. And I mean, this is, we talked about this. Yeah, this is, this, this is the most difficult adversary. This is like going up against the United States government. I mean, it's like going up against, you know, Google or Facebook. I mean, it's, they've got unlimited resources and they use them and they, you know, and they use them and they will, you know, they will use a howitzer to kill a mosquito. And as a, as a, as a, as a lawyer, you know, you have to. The case has to make economic sense. You know, I'm not in the business of just throwing bombs. I've got more fun ways to lose money than to bring cases that, you know, are losers for everybody, but especially the client. Because while winning feels good, losing is horrible.
John Dehlin [00:37:24] And especially for victims. Right.
Tim Kosnoff [00:37:27] Yeah, I'm talking about victims. I mean, you know, my, I use the Hippocratic oath first, do no harm. And a lot of times the best advice I can get is that you have a great case, but you shouldn't pursue it because I don't think it would be good for you. Yeah, you know, you're, you want to protect your sobriety and, you know, that's the most important thing. Well, this is going to challenge it. It's going to be extremely stressful. I'm not sure it's going to work for you. And you may be angry and you may want to pursue this case now, but after you've gone through the, the, you know what they're going to do to you. They're going to talk to everybody you've ever known. They're going to dig up every piece of dirt on you. Private investigators, you know, they're going to put you three Days of deposition and you know, you say now that you're up for the fight. But I've had too many clients who said the same thing and at the end they just, they just caved, they just melted. So it's a two way street for both the clients and the lawyers. For those who think that my job is to be a constant bomb thrower against the church, you know, I've thrown more bombs than just about anybody in the world against the church with respect to its sexual abuse policies and practices. So that's, that's, that's not a fair, that's not a fair remark in my opinion with respect to, you know, do. Does this appearance, will this appearance result in, in people calling me and hiring me? Well, they may call me, but chances are I'm going to decline 99% of them either because they don't qualify or
John Dehlin [00:39:03] because I don't have the unlimited resources,
Tim Kosnoff [00:39:07] the resources to do this. But they at least need to know from somebody that knows something about this that they're going to lose their rights. And I know they've heard that kind of thing before and it's true. But there aren't many lawyers out there who practice in this area of law or if they have, are not familiar with this bankruptcy plan and how there are these little cracks in it, not so little that give an avenue for justice for certain individuals. So I'm here to say, you want to know more, call me, you know, to ask specific questions. It's fine. I'm not asking you to hire me. I'm. Am I? Actually, probably not. I'm probably going to say I'm not interested in representing you. Or I'll refer you to somebody I think can adequately represent you. But I'm not here to promote Tim Kosdoff lawyer. I'm here to get the word out.
John Dehlin [00:40:06] Yeah. And I would just ask for any critics, who else, who would be a better person to tell us the status of the case and how victims can get justice. Who better than Tim? If you've got someone better, maybe I'll bring them on too. But until I know someone better, if Tim's around and available. And I'll just also say that like oncologists treat cancer and get paid a nice salary for it. Like brain surgeons get paid. Like, why shouldn't attorneys get paid to represent victims? Like the, you know, I get that non profit executives or employees get paid. Like you can get paid to do work that is primarily altruistic. But also how can people who are trying to do altruistic work, survive and support their family and make a living if they don't get paid. You should want people doing good in the world to get paid for what they're doing. That's just my.
Tim Kosnoff [00:41:04] But I also make an offer, which is if Elon Musk or the Koch brothers or some other billionaire believes in what I'm doing and would like to financially help me do these cases where I don't have to worry about the financial part of it, just the righteous part of it, you know, please call me too. But, you know, I, I don't have the time or the money to do that. But I, I think I do have the capacity to put together an army of lawyers, train them and do this. And unfortunately there, there isn't such an army out there right now. There's mostly an army of lawyers that want to get in and make a quick buck and move on within the mass tort system. And that's not me.
John Dehlin [00:41:47] Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to not ask you to, to. I'm going to give your phone number out or it's a call center. But if, if you want to consult with Tim about your. Well, first of all, go hire your own lawyer if you want. If you're in California, wherever, Oregon, Washington, wherever. If you want to file a lawsuit, go find a lawyer and file a lawsuit. If you're in California and you want to file a lawsuit involving the Mormon Church and the Boy Scouts, you really should do it before January 1, 2023, by, by December 31, and you better
Tim Kosnoff [00:42:23] get going because we can't file it on New Year's Eve, you know. But, but also, I just going to say I'm going to give you my cell phone number. It's out there, but don't bother calling it because I get so many spam phone calls, you know, unless I recognize the number, I don't pick up. So that's the reason for this number. So, you know, we can identify that. You know, these are people, serious people calling with serious questions. Otherwise, you know, I'm just not going to answer because every other one, 10 out of 11 calls are spam trying to sell me something. So it's, it's unfortunate.
John Dehlin [00:43:02] So I'll give the number. It's 2067-8573-2620-6785-7326. That's just. If you want to have a chance to talk to Tim to understand the, the case, where it stands, what your chances might be, and more likely than not, he's either going to say I can't represent you or refer you to somebody else. But if you want to talk to one of the world's best, if not the world's best. 206-785-7326. I am receiving no money from Tim for today's episode. There's no quid pro quo here. There's no financial interest by me or the Open Stories foundation to do this. I literally don't know a better way to inform victims and to, and to educate them as to what their options are than to bring Tim on. And if, again, if my viewers or listeners have better ideas, I'm always open.
Tim Kosnoff [00:43:56] And from my end, you know, I've had plenty of television exposure and so forth, but there's no other place where I can get an opportunity to have a sort of long form discussion like this where I can talk in depth. That just doesn't happen with mainstream media. They're not interested in the larger story and it just, it's an ineffective way. Mormon Stories reaches tens, hundreds of thousands of people, both Mormon, ex Mormon and I understand predominantly non Mormon listeners. So I think it's a unique place to come and I promise you I won't come back. How's that?
John Dehlin [00:44:46] No, I want you to come back. I mean, Tim, I was, this is just totally an aside, you know, when Gerardo and I were talking to you after you came. Gerardo was here, right? Yeah, yeah, I was just, I was just, you know, we think about kind of some of the pillars of the past three or four decades in terms of like people that have really moved the needle or made contributions. And I'm talking people like Sandra and Gerald Tanner, Grant Palmer, others. As I was talking to you about how long you've been in this fight for justice and for like improved behavior on the part of the Mormon Church and how extensive your knowledge is, your connections, even your knowledge of basic Mormon Church history. I was like, wow, I'm kind of talking to a legend here. So I want you back, Tim Kosnoff. I hope you won't shut me out.
Tim Kosnoff [00:45:38] No, well, I'll stay in touch and I'll report back on, on what happens. But thank you for giving your listeners, you know, an opportunity to at least know that they have to ask their lawyers more specific questions like do I have rights that survive this bankruptcy that might actually get me real compensation? And I'm afraid they aren't hearing that except today.
John Dehlin [00:46:08] Yeah. All right, well, I'll, I'll put it one more time. The numbers 2, 0, 678-57326. But don't. That's not the only way. Just find an attorney, call somebody, get representation. If you, if you feel like you deserve. Financial is the word remuneration. What's the word?
Tim Kosnoff [00:46:32] Well, these are, these are lifelong injuries and it's, it's catastrophic. And they deserve compensation. You know, everybody that's involved in this system, you know, needs to get paid. Kurt McConkey certainly gets paid. Therapists, counselors, they need to get paid. Counseling of the kind these folks need is expensive and goes on for years.
John Dehlin [00:46:59] Yeah.
Tim Kosnoff [00:46:59] And, and it's. Most folks don't have enough money really to pay for groceries and car payments, much less that. And so they continue to, to suffer. And those that were responsible get off with a slap on the hand.
John Dehlin [00:47:17] Yeah. So lots of positive comments coming in. I'm going to just share a couple in support. Cole writes, Tim has done incredible work. Thanks for coming on again. Brady writes, lawyers get paid to be lawyers. The church gets paid tithing to abuse and extort its members. That's an extreme view, but that's Brady's view. You decide which one you'd rather pay if this fight impacts you personally. Thanks for sharing. That scrambled egg writes, come back, Tim. This is very informative. Lara John writes this. Sorry, sorry. Sally Osling writes, this man doesn't have to be here. The fact that he is is a clear picture of his character. Thank you, Tim. Now this Laura John character, if that's actually someone's real name, has a, has another comment. Laura John is saying no non disclosure agreements or NDAs. The Mormon Church will only stop protecting pedophiles and sexual predators by exposure. What would you just, just because we believe in transpar. Directly talking about.
Non-Disclosure Agreements and Future Legal Options
Tim Kosnoff [00:48:24] Sure.
John Dehlin [00:48:24] Sometimes in a settlement where you represent a victim, there will, there will not only be a settlement to avoid trial, but also an NDA.
Tim Kosnoff [00:48:34] Wrong.
John Dehlin [00:48:35] Why? What's wrong? Okay.
Tim Kosnoff [00:48:36] Wrong.
John Dehlin [00:48:37] Okay. Talk about that.
Tim Kosnoff [00:48:38] Yeah. And I, if that ever comes up, I, I tell the clients at the beginning, and I think I still have it in my fee agreements that if settlement is conditioned upon non disclosure, I won't represent you. So many times the clients say, well, I want to tell people my story. Can I still tell my story if I settle? And I said yes. So the Mormon Church requires non disclosure as to the amount of the settlement.
John Dehlin [00:49:10] Oh, okay.
Tim Kosnoff [00:49:10] That's it. So we, you know, we're not free to disclose the amount of the settlement most of the time. Sometimes they don't care. Usually when the settlements are not very big, you know, they'd be more than happy for me to go out and announce what a weak settlement I was able to obtain on behalf of the client. But no, we, they are, their lips are not sealed. They are free to talk. And oftentimes after we have settled, you know, I said, I know people in media, I know documentarians, I know people that would love to interview. Are you interested? And sometimes they are. Sometimes they're just too worn out and they, you know, they decline. But no, we're not concealing or covering up anything. The fact that the church is resolving these cases pre filing means there isn't a lawsuit, which means there isn't an opportunity for the news to report on that lawsuit. But that's the client's choice. Yes, if I can go in without having my, you know, case reported in the press and I can get a settlement with the Church, that's what I want. Again, the lawyer's first obligation is to the client. The client is the boss, and however they want to handle it, will handle it. There have been times when I've pushed the client, you know, let's go public with it, let's do this, let's do that. And they've just said, I can't do it. It's not just can't do it.
John Dehlin [00:50:41] Who wants to be. Not everyone wants to be painted as a victim of sexual abuse publicly.
Tim Kosnoff [00:50:46] And it's.
John Dehlin [00:50:46] Have your name available on Google for, for Google searches for the rest of time.
Tim Kosnoff [00:50:51] No, I. And, and people should be screaming it from the rooftops. It's just I'm constrained as a lawyer. But there's nothing that prevents anybody.
John Dehlin [00:51:01] Right.
Tim Kosnoff [00:51:02] With, particularly with specific insider knowledge. Call me if you want to talk to any of my press contacts or any of the documentarians. I think I'm working on half a dozen different documentaries at this time. I was here in town and spent a day with one walking around talking about the Mormon Church just a couple days ago. So there's tremendous interest in a way that didn't exist 20 years ago or 25 years ago when I first started doing this. But people are realizing that this is a real problem, especially in the Mormon Church, and they're perpetuating it through this policy of the clean slate doctrine, as they once put it in court, where they feel an obligation to recycle a child molester and put him back into his original position, not report them to the police and instruct bishops not to report them to the police. That's the policy and practice of the Mormon Church. And it is injurious to children and it has not changed.
John Dehlin [00:52:10] Yeah. Okay, just really quickly, I want to, I want to thank, I want to give a shout out to 21st century saints for their amazing podcast. They run an amazing podcast out of the uk. Two brilliant, hilarious women. They also gave us a twenty dollar, a twenty pound UK pound donation to this episode through the super chat feature of YouTube. And we really, we want to say good work 21st century saints for your amazing podcast and also thank you for the donation. Also want to thank Cole Williams for his Super Chat donation. Part of the way that we, we've, we survived financially is by and through financial support. So I want to thank everyone for that. There is one question at least that I want to share. Mrs. Alabama asks, Does Tim represent victims who were abused outside of the Boy Scouts but in the Mormon Church?
Tim Kosnoff [00:53:06] The answer is yes, but they're difficult because of statute of limitations in these states, particularly Utah, but also where Mormons predominantly live. But so the best cases are where there are Mormons that are affected by this policy and practice in states where they have a favorable statute of limitations. You know, Utah, for example, even if you have a case involving a minor, the church, through its influence has been able to construct a system of laws that would prevent a victim bringing that kind of claim against the church in Utah. So we look to places like Washington, Oregon, California and others. And we do get cases occasionally. We got the one from West Virginia, we get them from New York, we get them in some places. But predominantly we're constrained by the Neanderthal primitive backward laws in places like the state of Utah. So but call us, we'll evaluate. Sometimes there's a path. And I wouldn't say automatically, no, we need to know. It's a very fact driven analysis and we need to know all the facts before we can say whether or not we think you have a viable case or not. So yeah, please call.
Listener Questions, Donations, and Closing Remarks
John Dehlin [00:54:33] All right, really quickly, one of our, one of our viewers is asking where they can donate. I'll just include a link in the comments to the the ways that you donate to Mormon Stories podcast. You can just go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button, do a one time donation or become a monthly donor. If you're in YouTube in the chat window there should be a little dollar sign where you can click on that. But if you donate directly, I think YouTube doesn't take a cut. Anyway, thank you for asking LA Taylor Long how to donate. So anyway, Tim, I see you as, as a hero of sorts. I see you as a legend of sorts. When I found out you're going to be in town, I had to juggle my schedule a little bit. Eventually I was able to and I was just, I'm really grateful for all your work on behalf of our people for decades because who else has really been holding the church responsible for sexual abuse other than you? I'm sure there's some, but I don't know anyone who's done more. So on behalf of the Mormon people, who I can speak, I'm comfortable speaking for on behalf of the Mormon people, post Mormons, ex Mormons. On behalf of Mormon Stories, thank you for your work and thank you for coming on today to let abuse victims in California know about their options and about the closing window. Again, the numbers 206-785-7000, 326. Any final word, Tim?
Tim Kosnoff [00:56:00] No, thank you. It's always a pleasure talking with you. And you know, as I said the last time, it's, it's easy to get down, but I think things are getting, are getting better. There's a lot more interest and some of these documentarians out there are doing some amazing work. So I'm, I'm really heartened that there's other people that are picking up the torch and getting the word out. And you certainly have done an enormous amount of work raising awareness, and that's really what it's all about.
John Dehlin [00:56:40] All right. All right, Tim Kosnov, you stay well, stay healthy, and thanks for your amazing work.
Tim Kosnoff [00:56:46] Thank you, John. I hope you'll come back anytime.
John Dehlin [00:56:49] All right. All right. Thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks for your chats. Thanks to everyone on the Open Stories foundation board and the staff that we have who make all this possible. Thanks to all the donors who make this possible. If you value this type of program, if you want to see it Continue, go to MormonStories.org Click on the Donate button at the top of the screen. Become a monthly donor. One time donor. We're tax deductible in the U.S. we're transparent in our finances and we spend 16 hours a day or more trying to promote healing and growth within the progressive and post Mormon communities and help the Mormon Church when we can. But sometimes, if we set our goals on changing the church, we're sometimes disappointed. So thanks for your support. Please follow us on all the social medias. Share this with whoever you can. If you know someone who you think may have been abused in any context, but especially in states like California, Oregon or Washington, please send them this video so that they can, you know, get justice if they want to. That that would really be useful. So everyone, thanks so much. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com Feel free to comment on all the apps. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon, hopefully on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
CONTENT WARNING: Mentions of Sexual Assault, Rape, Child Abuse
Tim Kosnoff is back to share an update about the Boy Scouts of America Bankruptcy Filing and urgent deadline at the end of 2022 for anyone in California who was abused by a Boy Scout Leader outside of official BSA activities to be able to join a class-action lawsuit before the window is closed forever.
Anyone with questions or think this might apply to themselves or someone they love are encouraged to contact an attorney (ideally one with experience with child abuse claims) to learn more. Tim Kosnoff is a US attorney who has spent the last two decades representing victims of abuse and has graciously volunteered to talk with anyone who may have questions about this case. Contact info provided below.
Free BSA Consult Hotline: 206-785-7326
Tim Kosnoff: https://kosnoff.com
https://twitter.com/SexAbuseAttys
Recent Episodes:
1639: The Mormon Church Abuse Hot Line with Attorney Tim Kosnoff
1640: Boy Scout Abuse and the Mormon Church with Attorney Tim Kosnoff
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Show Notes:
- AP: Seven years of sex abuse: How Mormon officials let it happen
- AP: How Mormon church ‘help line’ hid child sex abuse
- The Sins of Brother Curtis
- Spotlight Movie
- Scouts Honor – Sexual Abuse and the BSA
- The Three R’s – Recognize, Review, and Report (BSA Abuse training)
One Response
Mormon Church deceived/abused pregnant teen girls for decades! From about 1950 until today, the Mormon Church’s “Social Services” (also called “Family Services”) has run secret “homes” for unwed pregnant Mormon teen girls. The LDS Social Services deceived the girls, and pressured or forced the girls to sign over their babies to LDS Social Services, who sold the babies in adoptions, and gave the girls NOTHING in return. The girls were told to lie to friend, telling them they were going to live with relatives for a year (a lie). The girls were worked like slaves, given some baby-caring classes (knowing they would not be keeping the babies…which they didn’t tell the girls until a day or two before labor). Swore the parents and girls to secrecy with threats of “excommunicating” the girls (thus exposing them to shame to their friends and congregation). How many girls were involved in these secret “home” (some houses up to 12 or more girls at a time)? I can’t say, but these secret “homes” were all over the Western U.S. Girls were taken far away from their homes and schools and friends, and parents. Half of these girls have left the Church, so they may want to get some “payback” from the Church for deceiving them and forcing them to sign over their babies. You need to look into it. Thank you. Tell Kosnoff about this.