Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to my interview with Bruce Bastian. My recent interview with Bruce Bastian, of course. Ten years ago, around 2010, I interviewed Bruce Bastian, philanthropist, founder of WordPerfect, someone who's been instrumental in the fight for LGBT rights in Utah and across the country, but also someone who formed one of the most important companies in my life and in the history of tech, WordPerfect Corporation that ended up being purchased by Novell. You can listen to all that in the previous episode and in the interview I did 10 years ago with Bruce. I'm John Dehlin. We just spent some time with Bruce talking about his life since 2010 and specifically focusing around his philanthropy and even more specifically his philanthropy with hrc, the Human Rights Commission, and all that they did in response to Prop 8 that ultimately led to the legalization of same sex marriage in the United states nationwide by 2015, and some really good human rights legislation, LGBT affirming legislation here in the state of Utah. So much good has happened and Bruce has been such an important part of this state and this country and of improving the lives of 5% of us basically here in the United States and in the world. So it was super fun to catch up with Bruce, but I'm way more excited, even so, about what you are about to hear today. So when Bruce Bastian, you know, came out as a gay man, left the LDS Church, was divorced from his wife, and lived his life for a few decades, you know, as we talked about last time, Bruce maybe at some point got a little bit disillusioned about relationships and about what his future might, might be in terms of love and companionship and relationships. And little did Bruce know that when he was fighting for the legalization of same sex marriage, that, that those efforts were going to actually yield important benefits in his own life. So without any further ado, I want to turn your attention back to Bruce and a new special guest on Mormon Stories podcast. We, we have Clint Ford joining us today to round out this interview. Clint Ford, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Clint Ford [00:02:31] Thanks. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] So good to have you. And you figure into Bruce Story, why Bruce's story, Why?

Clint Ford [00:02:39] I think, well, obviously we're married, so I'm part of the story

John Dehlin [00:02:45] and that's something important that's happened since 2010.

Clint Ford [00:02:47] Since 2010, yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:02:49] Probably one of the most important things that's happened to you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] So we are going to dig into how in the world did this happen, that 10 years after Bruce was kind of worn out and disillusioned with relationships, he now sits before us today a married man, having benefited from the legislation and the legal status that was afforded to all LGBT people. And so we're going to talk about their love story. But what that means, Clint, is that we have to start building, backing up, and learn a little bit about you. Okay. All right, so take us back to your, you know, childhood.

Clint's Mormon Upbringing in Bountiful

Clint Ford [00:03:25] I was. I was born and raised in Bountiful, Utah. The first part of my childhood was spent in Woods Cross. Then we moved to Bountiful when I was 15. Mean, other than that. I mean, my childhood was great. My parents are great. They're both. We were raised in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] How many siblings?

Clint Ford [00:03:43] I'm the youngest of four. I have two older brothers and a sister. I have, like, nine nieces and nephews. And we're all pretty close in a way. We're all pretty close after.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Real quick shoot.

Clint Ford [00:04:00] I'm getting lost.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] No, it's good. Our listeners won't really. For the people outside of Utah. They'll have no idea what Bountiful is even like. Can we paint a. Because I would say there are a few really intense Mormon areas in Utah. Bountiful, certainly Provo and Orem, where. Where Bruce spent a lot of his time. Certainly Draper and Sandy, certainly Alpine and Highland. You know, Logan, Cache Valley can be pretty intense. But I would say Bountiful is pretty top five in terms of, you know, a lot of the, you know, apostles, Mormon apostles have lived in Bountiful. I know Jeffrey R. Holland raised his kids in Bountiful. A lot of the LDS apostles traditionally have lived in North Salt Lake or in Bountiful. And it's just known as a pretty intense area to. To grow up Mormon. So talk about what Bountiful is like and then talk about Clint, what it was like to grow up as someone who knew he was gay in heavily conservative Mormon Bountiful, Utah.

Clint Ford [00:04:57] Okay. All right. I mean, obviously at a young age, I was aware that there was something going on with me that wasn't similar with all the other boys that I would play with as a child. And as I got older, I. I started realizing what. What that was. I was obviously gay in Bountiful. Woods Cross area. It's a very conservative city. I mean, everything basically is. When I was younger, was closed on Sunday. Like, all the. We didn't have a Walmart. We had a Smith and a Dick's Market and a Weagers and Dick's and Weiner closed every Sunday. And so it's very, very conservative. They didn't want you to work On Sunday you would go to church and then spend the rest of the day with your family.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] And you're in the shadow of what?

Clint Ford [00:05:43] The Mormon Temple.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] The Bountiful Temple, right, yeah, the Bountiful temple, yeah. Just did it loom large psychologically as much as it did architecturally, geographically?

Clint Ford [00:05:51] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it sits on the mountain. You can't miss it. So, yeah. So growing up, I mean, I had a good childhood, I had lots of friends, but the gay issue was always looming over everything that I, although I had, I dated girls because that's what you would do. I still had some issues with some boys who, I mean, they were right, I was gay, but for them, they found it very fun to tease me for being gay. Although I was not out in high school. In high school.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] Yeah, you were teased.

Clint Ford [00:06:26] Yeah, yeah. And it was more than teasing, I think now, I mean, nowadays I would probably, it would probably end up being a hate crime on, on some of the things that I experienced with these boys.

Bruce Bastian [00:06:36] You were bullied.

Clint Ford [00:06:36] I was, I was bullied, yes. That's true.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] Your high school years were kind of, what, what was the four year range of your high school years? Just so I can get a sense

Clint Ford [00:06:44] for like year wise, graduating class 04.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] So 2000 to 2004, you were in high school.

Clint Ford [00:06:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] So a lot of bullies, a lot of Mormons. Let me just ask you this. You. You're being raised Mormon and then there's that moment where you're like, wait a minute, am I gay? Oh, how does that fit with Mormonism? And what does that mean for my life? Kind of. Do you remember what age that was and how you started trying to process that and what that was like?

Clint Ford [00:07:13] Yeah, I was actually, I was super young. I was in, well, not super young, but I was in junior high, I think the eighth grade. I told my parents kind of what was going on and they found a therapist through the church. We went and saw him and luckily for me, the therapist had a twin brother who was gay. And so he basically told my parents, you, you either support him and, and you guys live like a great loving life where you guys are involved with each other or you agree to disagree and those are the only options that you have. And we agree that we disagree. And I know that sounds weird, but I'm fine with that. I guess I don't.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] So as a kid, you go to this therapist and, and the agreement that you and your parents emerge with is what?

Clint Ford [00:08:01] Well, I mean, we actually, we didn't sit down and have an agreement. My. My parents and I, there wasn't a. There wasn't a moment where we both said, you know, we agree to disagree. The therapist basically explained to my mom that no matter what kind of therapy or anything we do, I'm gay. That's. That's just the way it is. She got upset, left the therapy room, and that was the last kind of discussion we had until in high school, when some boys thought it would be funny to spray paint my car with profanities on it and my sexuality. And that was the next conversation we had about, you know, being gay. And because of that, I ended up going to Salt Lake Community College and getting graduating from high school from Salt Lake Community College. First was cross high because the bullying was so bad. While I was out at Salt Lake Community College, I was lucky enough to meet gay people. And luckily, one of them had a really supportive mom. And she said, you know, Clint, you need to just tell them that they know your parents know you're gay. You guys have talked about it, but you haven't actually sat down and said, okay, I'm gay. So I. I called my. My brother and sister and went and saw them and was telling them what, you know, like, trying to explain what was happening. And it went well. It went okay. I had a. I had a brother who was eavesdropping and took the liberty to call my parents and let my parents know what I was doing. So he kind of stole my coming out story. And things were really rough there for a minute with me and my family. We weren't really talking. We weren't. I mean, it was. It was. I mean, I look back now, it was super crazy and. But it could have been a lot worse, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Yeah.

Clint Ford [00:09:57] And things are fine now, I think, because of all of that. I had a really rough 20s, and I was looking for love or acceptance in all the wrong places because I wasn't getting it at home. So I had to go somewhere to find it and probably wasn't doing things I should have. I probably was not doing things I should have been doing in my 20s that were healthy, that were healthy on all kinds of levels. And. But we met in my 20s during that time.

Leaving the Church and Finding a New Path

John Dehlin [00:10:33] Let me, if it's okay, before we jump into that, let me jump back a little bit.

Clint Ford [00:10:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] So many, almost all of the Mormon boys that I've interviewed sort of had this 5 to 10 sort of span of years where it's like, okay, I know I'm gay, but I gotta be Mormon. And so I'm gonna push it down And I'm gonna be as righteous as I can and go serve a mission, and then Heavenly Father will take it away. And then by the time I get off my mission, I'll be cured and I'll be able to marry a woman and have a great life. You. You are rare.

Clint Ford [00:11:03] That was never an option. That was never an option.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] So tell me why. Tell me why you jumped off that track when so many other kids couldn't get off that track.

Clint Ford [00:11:13] I don't know. I think. I think at a young age, at that therapy appointment with my parents, I realized that. That there was not going to be an option for me to change the way that I am, because the therapist basically said, there's nothing you can do. And being gay, you really can't be Mormon. And I think at that time, I probably decided that I would just be alone forever. You know, I wouldn't. Wouldn't have a partner or anything, but going on a mission and doing that was. It just. It was nothing that ever even approached my mind. I mean, it.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] Not even had the traditional Mormon beliefs, or had you not even been able to form those, like Heavenly Father and, like, your future and the celestial kingdom?

Clint Ford [00:12:02] No, because, I mean, I guess from a young age, I just knew. I knew I was different, and I just knew that wasn't something that I could be a part of. I don't. I don't know. I can't even tell you a favorite scripture.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] You didn't overly internalize Mormonism.

Clint Ford [00:12:17] No, I don't. And I don't actually even know that much about it because, you know, I was a kid. I mean, I was baptized. I became a deacon and passed the sacrament, but that's kind of where it ended for me.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Okay. Okay.

Clint Ford [00:12:29] It was always fortunate then. Well, I. I think so. I mean, it was always something that I. It was. It was something that I could have never. I never could connect to it. I never had any kind of connection

John Dehlin [00:12:40] to the church because there was no.

Clint Ford [00:12:42] No, there was no place for me. There's no place for me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] I just am so happy for you that you didn't have to lose those years.

Clint Ford [00:12:50] Yeah, well, I lost them in other ways, but.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] So that. That's what you mean by kind of experimenting and. Yeah, but it's hard because, you know, I talked to Bruce a little bit about this. It's not like there's a template being raised in Bountiful. You're not given role models, and you're not given sort of like, hey, here's a vision for what your life can be like. Is that right?

Clint Ford [00:13:08] Yeah, yeah, that. That's definitely right. Yeah. I mean, like Reese was saying earlier with. We had Will and Grace, which was like, kind of, you know, the savior. And. And Will. Will never really had a serious relationship. And Jack was in and out of all these relationships, and I just figured I would be more like Will and, you know, probably have a roommate who's a female, but we wouldn't be lovers. We'd be best friends, you know, and that's kind of how I looked at. Of a lot of things growing, you know, in my early years.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Yeah. You didn't see that future for yourself?

Clint Ford [00:13:41] Yeah, I never saw. I never saw me with children or a wife. I just. It never. It wasn't something that ever crossed my mind. I mean, although I had girlfriends because that's what I was supposed to do, and. But I never. They were never, like, serious. I never thought after high school, we'll get married, you know, I never, ever thought anything past. It was after high school I could get out of here and live my life and for now, do anything I can, you know, not to get beat up and keep my head down and get out. So that's what I did.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] And I don't think it's insignificant that you had to leave high school early to be safe.

Clint Ford [00:14:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] And you had to go to a community college to find safety earlier than you should have had to go, frankly.

Clint Ford [00:14:26] Yep. My senior year. Yeah, it was a good thing for me, you know, like, at the time, I. I was. I'm like, okay, this will change everything. I'll go to college. Things will change. Maybe I'll end up like Will, you know, I don't know. But unfortunately, because I didn't have, like, the support system I. I guess I needed at home, the people I chose to. Hung around to run around with in my 20s weren't. Weren't people, mostly weren't people I should have been involved with. And I think if things were different, maybe I would have picked a better path for my 20s. But now, looking back, I think it worked out. I. I mean, I. I mean, I have complaints about a few things, but not much. There's not much that I. I think everything kind of went the way it was supposed to go.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] So some people, when they kind of reach that state in early adulthood in Utah, they're like, I'm getting out of Utah. Yeah, I'm gonna go to San Francisco. I'm gonna go to New York. I'm gonna go somewhere that's more friendly. Did you decide to Stay here?

Clint Ford [00:15:28] Yeah. Well, I moved to the Gateway Mall, and for me, that. And I. And I was working retail at the time, so for me, that was like the safest place I could be. There was a gay bar across the street. You know, like, everything was open on Sunday. It was. It was like this cool metropolitan life. I was, like, living in the city and it was good. I had no. I mean, everyone dreams of maybe going to New York or California or something, but for me, Salt Lake was. Was enough. It got me far enough away from bountiful that I felt comfortable and free.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] So 2. Let's just say there's some kids, gay Mormon kids, that decide the church isn't for them and they're facing their 20s. Do you have any words of wisdom for them as they're, you know, from. From your years in the twenties? What words of wisdom do you offer?

Clint Ford [00:16:19] I would definitely say follow your gut and choose your friends wisely. And if you feel that it's time for you to not be involved in the Mormon Church or if you need to take a break to figure that out, you got to do what's best for you. You can't live, you cannot be happy if you're continually trying to please other people or be a part of something that doesn't accept you for who you are. So I would say, yeah, follow your gut and choose your friends wisely.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] And as you're. Let's just say for these kids who leave the church and are just trying to figure out their 20s without the church, what are the criteria? What types of friends do they want?

Bruce Bastian [00:17:00] I don't think it just has to be for the 20s. Anybody who's. Anybody who's contemplating that. Be around people who accept and love

Clint Ford [00:17:09] you for who you are.

Bruce Bastian [00:17:11] Don't be around people who want to change you yet. Further, don't be around people who want to drag you into something that you feel uncomfortable with. That's just. I mean, that's just a formula for sadness.

Clint Ford [00:17:27] I think it would be a good idea to look at your values and what. And the things you want out of your life and then look at your friends who you're surrounding yourself with and pick people that have the same kind of values. You know, I have a lot of good friends who were raised Mormon and are no longer Mormons, so we share some of the same values. And you can find people who, all over the world, any kind of race or religion, who will accept you for who you are, but they gotta love you for who you are and encourage you to be the person you are. And I think having a checklist, picking out the kind of people you want to be around really helps you come into yourself and live a happier life. I wasn't very good at that in my early 20s. I was looking for things that made me feel good, not things that were good for me.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Beautiful. So, so as you, as you think back to your 20s, did you imagine yourself being, being married someday? Was that something you were shooting for?

Clint Ford [00:18:33] No. I mean, I had, I mean, I had a couple. Serious relationship. Not. I mean, I can't. Looking back at him now, I don't even call them serious because the, the groundwork the relationship was laid on was rocky. So I, I thought either I would be single or maybe have like a boyfriend type that I lived with. But I never. No, I never. I mean, even when people bring up, you know, fight for marriage equality and at that point I wasn't really involved or cared. I think maybe because being raised Mormon and having the idea that I would never be accepted or have a family, I was fine with not having rights because I just felt that was, that was a trade off of not being unbountiful and not having a wife and having kids. I don't know, I know that sounds really demented and not normal, but I guess when you're in that situation, you take trade offs that you say, okay, this is fine. It wasn't until like later years when I realized, no, I deserve the same rights as my straight neighbors. Like your brothers and sisters or my siblings. Yeah. Or my parents. You know, I deserve, I deserve the same rights that they have. And why not? But, you know, there's a part of your life where you, if you've been raised Mormon, where you just don't think you deserve anything. And this is just what you get and you just, you know, you, you deal with the cards you're dealt.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Did you have dark moments?

Clint Ford [00:19:57] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Yep. What, what made, what made them feel particularly dark?

Clint Ford [00:20:05] I was, I was totally alone, you know, Although I, I did have some relationships, they weren't, they weren't healthy at all. There wasn't a single aspect of any of the relationships that I had that were healthy. And that's, it's actually like a really scary place to be when you feel like you have nothing and there's nothing there. You become this different kind of person where nothing really matters, if that makes sense. And you just live this life that's not meaningful. And that's what I was doing for a few years.

Bruce Bastian [00:20:40] It's survival instead of living. It's just surviving.

Clint Ford [00:20:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Did you end up picking a. A, you know, a certain major to study and a certain career to pursue?

Clint Ford [00:20:52] No. Nope. I was. I was avoiding all of that because of the feelings of. I don't deserve any of that. Being a gay man, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] You feel like you deserved.

Clint Ford [00:21:03] No, it just wasn't.

Bruce Bastian [00:21:04] It was.

Clint Ford [00:21:04] No, it just wasn't anything that I. It's really weird because, you know, at a time in my life where, I mean, I was already going to college classes, I should have just kept going, but I don't know what happened. Just none of it felt like it was for me. It just, you know, it's. I look back at it now and I'm like, it was really probably scary. And you.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] I'm just thinking that if you're raised as if you don't count, there's no future for you, there's no hope. Then when you reach adulthood, what do you have as a. As a rule, as role models, as a vision, as a structure?

Clint Ford [00:21:41] You have nothing. You have nothing.

Bruce Bastian [00:21:43] Like.

Clint Ford [00:21:43] So to go back to my high school days when I was being bullied by those boys, and the school had to get involved because it was happening at school. But their only response was, this is an issue you need to deal with at home. So it was like, at home, they don't want to deal with the issue. I go to school and school doesn't want to deal with the issue. And it was this place of just isolation where, you know, you don't really. I mean, I had supportive friends who were. Who were. When I came out, gave me hugs and loved me and were there for me in, like, the straight community. But growing up feeling that this is an issue that has to happen somewhere else, not where you currently are, if that makes sense. Like, the issue was happening at school. It wasn't happening anywhere else. It was happening at school, but the school said, no, you have to deal with this issue at home. How do I do that when it's happening when I come to school? So it was this weird place where. Where you're. You're basically. You don't feel safe anywhere, and you're. You're just. You're just kind of living day by day because that's just. I don't know, It's. It was a. It was a weird, weird time of my life.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] And you lose your faith, community. And so you don't have the ward or the friends.

Clint Ford [00:22:57] Yeah, you leave. You lose everything.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] The youth programs. You have kind of nothing. And it's almost like, I don't know that it's intentionally designed that way, but it's worse than that. You're just, there's no design for you.

Clint Ford [00:23:10] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:23:11] Let me just butt in and say I, I have felt for a long time that the straight community loved gay people being in the closet. Yeah. Just, you know, live in silence, live out of our sight, out of our mind. We don't just don't be who just stay in the dark shadows. And that's kind of when you're struggling coming out. Regardless of how your story is, I think that's part of it. You are kind of in your own closet and it's darkness.

The Loneliness and Struggles of Coming Out

John Dehlin [00:23:44] It's really sad and lonely and potentially deadly.

Bruce Bastian [00:23:49] Potentially deadly.

Clint Ford [00:23:50] Deadly.

Turning Points Toward a Joyful Life

John Dehlin [00:23:52] So, Clint, what turned your life around? What were the, what were the formative moments that helped you see that you actually deserved a joyful life and that you could have a future and that you deserved a future?

Clint Ford [00:24:05] There is a few throughout, throughout my 20s. I met Bruce when I was 21 and immediately when we met I knew there was something special there. I don't know what it was, but there was some kind of connection. And that was just before I dived into probably the darkest part of my life.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] And let me ask is it, was there anything that kept you guys from dating then or get, or forming a relationship?

Clint Ford [00:24:32] Then we, we started forming like a friendship, a really, really good, really good friendship. You know, Bruce was, Bruce was traveling, Bruce had things going on in his own life and I was like beginning my self destructive pattern, you know, like behavior. So I wasn't even present to even be in a, it was, we had a phone call, email relationship for years. We didn't even really, we'd see each other every once in a while, but not, not nearly often enough but so through those years Bruce and I would email, he'd be traveling and, and Bruce,

John Dehlin [00:25:06] let me ask, what were your, what were your thoughts about Clint in those early years?

Bruce Bastian [00:25:10] I, I, I thought he was a wonderful young man. I thought he was troubled. I thought he lacked self confidence. I mean in a very major way. I thought he had a lot of insecurities that were not founded. I just thought he, there are so many times I just wanted to virtually put my arms around him and say, you can do this, you can do this. But we, we rarely saw each other.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Did you have any inkling that there was potential Bruce, for a long term relationship with Clint back then? No. It didn't even cross your mind?

Bruce Bastian [00:25:56] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] And Clint, did you have any?

Clint Ford [00:25:58] No, no. Because I never really, I mean, I never really thought I'd be in a serious long term relationship. It just was something that the ones that had happened that became serious just happened. It wasn't like this, this scene that we talked about, we're going to do this life, they just kind of like fell into place and then it fizzled out as quickly as it, as it started. But yeah. So through those years, Bruce and I had always communicated and Bruce is not afraid to say how he feels. So I got several emails and phone calls that were. Not that I at the time thought they were really rude, but they were probably some of the best emails and phone calls that I had because what

John Dehlin [00:26:38] were the types of things being communicated?

Bruce Bastian [00:26:45] You know, stand up for yourself, do something about it.

Clint Ford [00:26:49] Don't just sit there and if you,

Bruce Bastian [00:26:51] if you don't like this happening, change it, change it or stop it. But we were. He's only giving one side of the story and that we were both in pretty destructive relationships. Relationships. And when, when either one of us, when either one of us got really down, either in an email or a phone call, we would talk.

Clint Ford [00:27:18] Yeah, we'd work it out with each other kind of.

Bruce Bastian [00:27:21] And he told me, he told me often that the person I was trying to have a relationship with was wrong

Clint Ford [00:27:31] and he was just like the person I was involved with. Yeah, they're very, very similar. They're very, very similar. Interesting.

Bruce Bastian [00:27:42] Controlling.

Clint Ford [00:27:43] But because of all that, because of the dialogue and the conversations we kept having, one day I thought you got to stop. Like, is this going to be your life? You know, nothing. And so I got into some intense therapy and around what age was that? 27?

Bruce Bastian [00:28:03] 27.

Clint Ford [00:28:04] 27? 28. Was it earlier? Maybe 20, 27.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] How'd you find a good therapist?

Clint Ford [00:28:11] So this is crazy. So all along I had been, I knew I needed help with what I was doing and what was going on with my life. I just didn't know where, where to find it or what to do. So. And so I just started. There was like this search online where you would check these boxes and it would provide therapists that were, that dealed with your issues. And the one therapist I got, she actually didn't really deal with the kind of issues I had, but she showed up and she had like this mom face. And I thought that's kind of what I needed, was like a mom moment. And so that's how I found her. I mean, I saw her sometimes twice a week for like five years. And what? Yeah, for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] Five years of therapy. Yep.

Bruce Bastian [00:28:57] Oh, John. I probably did 20 years of therapy.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] So you guys are.

Bruce Bastian [00:29:02] I went and I went through several therapists until one would give up on me and I'd choose another one.

Clint Ford [00:29:11] And she got to that point, too. She's like, if you come in here next week saying the same thing, you're not coming in here anymore.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] And I'm like, she was tough on you.

Clint Ford [00:29:19] Yeah. Bruce is now saying that to me. She's saying that to me. So do it. Like, change your life. Do it. So what were the big changes you

John Dehlin [00:29:27] had to make, Clint?

Clint Ford [00:29:28] The circle of friends I was hanging out with.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] You need to change your friends.

Clint Ford [00:29:31] Yep. And I needed to reconnect with friends from my past who gave me a sense of who I was and how I became the person I am. And the one major thing, because I was. I was so paranoid of going in public. The therapist, the first thing she made me do is go to lunch alone in a busy restaurant. And that. I mean, out of all the hard things I had to do, that was probably the most difficult thing to do. And then it became.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] Why was that so hard?

Clint Ford [00:30:00] I don't know. Because I. I.

John Dehlin [00:30:03] There's this idea of distracting and running away from yourself.

Clint Ford [00:30:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Were you doing that?

Bruce Bastian [00:30:07] Yeah.

Clint Ford [00:30:07] And I was just running away from everyone. I didn't want anyone to see me. I mean, I was not happy of who I was or the things I was doing. And so being in public gave the option of people seeing the way I was and how I was behaving, and I didn't want that to happen. So

Bruce Bastian [00:30:24] I remember him actually talking to me about that.

Clint Ford [00:30:27] Well, I was supposed to meet you at Pride that one year, and I never showed up. I mean, I pulled up, I parked my car, and I couldn't do it. I just could not do it. So she said, you need to start by going, you know, take a newspaper or a book, go to a restaurant and have lunch alone.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] So you just had anxiety of being in public?

Clint Ford [00:30:43] I mean, it developed to that. I mean, it wasn't like that, but over the years, it developed to that. And so then I stopped seeing my therapist, and my therapy kind of became my lunch date every Monday or Tuesday by myself, you know, at a restaurant.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] And you just kept doing it?

Clint Ford [00:30:58] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:30:58] Yeah.

Clint Ford [00:30:59] Until the pandemic. I still did it, huh?

John Dehlin [00:31:01] Yeah.

Clint Ford [00:31:01] I go to lunch alone, sit at a restaurant. Yeah. Because I needed. I needed to know that I. I could still. I don't know. That gave me some kind of power, gave me some kind of confidence. Sitting at the bar alone, where all these people are with their friends. I don't know. I don't know how. I don't know why. It just. It just did. And I did it until February.

Bruce Bastian [00:31:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] Okay, so you. You start going out more, you change your friends. What other changes did you start making?

Clint Ford [00:31:31] I started going back to school for a little bit, um, and interested in. I was just going for my generals because I hadn't. I hadn't done anything with school. I was trying to figure out where, you know, what to do, where to go. Basically, I was starting from, like, nothing, Ground zero, rebuilding my life. And then I ended up. I had to move back home. So I guess it's a part I missed that. Through these bad relationships, I ended up having to moved back home to bountiful and. Which was really, really tough because it's kind of like brought me back to all of the past trauma and bullying.

Bruce Bastian [00:32:10] Yeah.

Clint Ford [00:32:10] And at the time, I was a smoker. And so my mom would make a big deal about me smoking not in the neighborhood, so neighbors wouldn't see me. And it was just. It was really, really hard. It was like I was at home with my family where I should be safe, but I couldn't be me.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Um, but also super great that they would let you stay, right?

Clint Ford [00:32:28] Yeah, yeah, super great.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Yeah, yeah.

Clint Ford [00:32:30] I think in a way, my mom would love it if I just stayed there forever.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Because you love your mom? Yeah, yeah.

Clint Ford [00:32:36] I love both of them dearly. Yeah, they've been great parents. But. So through all of that, I started going back to school. I. I started working again. And then we. I actually was doing stuff in public, and we would start. We started going on dates again. Like actual dates and not like therapy sessions or him complaining about his life and me complaining about my life and, you know, what type of job were

John Dehlin [00:33:01] you having at that point?

Clint Ford [00:33:03] Well, so this is crazy because of everything I was doing. The first job I. When I started going back to work is I was driving a cab in Midvale, and I think that was probably one of the biggest opening pre Uber.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Pre.

Clint Ford [00:33:17] This is just before Uber. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] Like a yellow cab kind of thing.

Clint Ford [00:33:21] Or it was a silver. Yeah, basically yellow cab, but it was a silver van minivan. My mom's friend worked for this cab company, and she did. She worked there at night. And I said, can I just drive like one or two days a week? Because I wasn't even. I mean, I would go out to the store, but I go to, like, Walmart at night or, you know, I wasn't doing anything to see anybody. And I thought, this is. This would be a way that I would be stuck in a place with a stranger and would have to, like, communicate and kind of get back into life. It was like my reintroduction to society. And I didn't do that for very long until I said, I am not doing this ever again.

Bruce Bastian [00:34:00] He has some amazing stories from that time.

Clint Ford [00:34:02] Yeah. And. And it's nice because it gave me an appreciation for, you know, all kinds of different people, because the people I was driving around, all forms of life. So it was actually a good way to start my foundation, the foundation of me respecting other people, appreciating people being different, me realizing that I'm different, and that's just fine. And things just started getting better from there. I get. I mean, I can't really say, like, this day or this moment, everything changed. But things got easier. I got happier, I got healthier, and we ended up dating. And then we started traveling and.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] Would you guys start dating? Well, around what year 2013 is?

Clint Ford [00:34:47] 2012.

Bruce and Clint's Relationship Begins

John Dehlin [00:34:48] Okay, so let's pause. And Bruce, let's talk about, like, I'm sure in your mind, you know, you didn't always envision you and Clint ending up together. So let's talk about once Clint started coming into your life face to face.

Clint Ford [00:35:04] What.

John Dehlin [00:35:04] What was going through your mind? And what. How are you seeing Clint? And I remember when we first.

Bruce Bastian [00:35:10] One of the first times, I just invited him to just. Just come over and we'll. We'll watch a movie. We'll just. Just come over to the house and we'll just watch a movie.

John Dehlin [00:35:23] And that was this friendship or, like, you kind of thought he was cute or something?

Bruce Bastian [00:35:26] Oh, I. I thought he was cute. I thought.

John Dehlin [00:35:29] What'd you like about. What'd you like about Clint? What attracted you to Clint for the very beginning?

Bruce Bastian [00:35:34] He's. He's funny. He's funny. He's a. He's so great to talk to. He's just. And he just kind of. And I also like the fact that he just, you know, he didn't care about my success or anything. I just had to be, you know, he cared about the Bruce he saw or was getting to know, and he didn't. The. The other stuff was unimportant, and that really. That really mattered to me.

Clint Ford [00:36:03] Well, when I first met him, I met him at a bar, and I had never heard of Bruce Bastian. I thought he was this guy from Europe. I had no. No idea. First, like, several months, I had no, like, I didn't Even the Bruce I met was just this. This interesting, brilliant, nerdy, funny guy. And I. I didn't, you know, like, of course, later on I found. Obviously I know about everything now, but at the beginning, it. I think that's probably what made our relationship work, was because I had no idea anything about Bruce. You know, Like, I. He asked for my number, I gave him my number, and we hung out and I. I said, what do you do? And he said, I retired. I used to work in the computer industry. And I thought maybe he, like, invented a golf game or, like, solid, you know, Like, I had no idea that was where the conversation ended.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] And what. What was it that was interesting to you about maybe a guy that's a little bit older? Like, an older guy. What. What did you like about that?

Clint Ford [00:37:12] I've always been attracted to older men.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] What do you like about. Just that.

Clint Ford [00:37:16] The confidence. They, you know, like older men. When I was in my 20s, dating 30 or 40 years old, they just seem more. More themselves. More comfortable.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] Authentic.

Clint Ford [00:37:31] Authentic. Yeah, they just. They knew what they were doing. They were comfortable in their own skin. And that gave me, like, a little bit of safety because, you know, I'm with someone who is. Who is okay with who they are, you know, like, they've been through all this shit I was going through, and it was nice.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] Makes sense.

Clint Ford [00:37:52] Felt safe. They've. Elder men have always felt safe to me, which I'm sure that people think

Bruce Bastian [00:37:57] that's really not true all the time, but.

Clint Ford [00:37:59] Okay, well, there's some. Yeah, but you have bad days.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] Is that what you're saying, Bruce? You have bad days?

Bruce Bastian [00:38:05] I. I think I'm much more authentic today than I was 10 years ago or even five years ago.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] Yeah. I think we're all on a journey, right?

Bruce Bastian [00:38:15] Yeah, it's a journey. And. But it being that that first time he came over to watch a movie, we didn't make it through the whole movie. He left because he didn't feel comfortable.

Clint Ford [00:38:24] Oh, he just crowned, wasn't it?

John Dehlin [00:38:26] What was wrong? What was wrong, Clint?

Clint Ford [00:38:28] I don't know. I left my dog at home, which kind of became my support blanket at the moment. I don't know. I just. I haven't been with it. Spending time with people who are living an authentic, honest, normal life.

Bruce Bastian [00:38:42] He just, you know, he still was having issues. I think he does have an issues. Just relaxing and being himself.

Clint Ford [00:38:51] Yeah. Being present.

Bruce Bastian [00:38:52] And that was still an issue he was fighting with.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] I would also guess there is. I noticed this in myself and others, psychologically, that, like, when you get close to something really good, you wonder if you deserve it or if it's too good to be true. Are either of those possible?

Clint Ford [00:39:12] Totally possible, yeah. I mean, there is a lot of times we would go. I mean, he took me to the White House, and I'm like, no, I should not be going to the White House. You know what I mean? Like, no, I'm not doing this. Like, a lot of things that I thought, no, I don't deserve this, or this is not in my life. This isn't something for me. But I think it's good because it's kept me in a. It's kept things in perspective, and I've been able to appreciate the things I need to appreciate.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] But at first, you were afraid. And so over time, what happened?

Clint Ford [00:39:46] We just started. It really started watching the Crown here. It's kind of what.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] The crown.

Clint Ford [00:39:51] The Crown is kind of.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] It's a great show.

Clint Ford [00:39:52] Yeah, super great show. The.

Bruce Bastian [00:39:55] It was before that.

Clint Ford [00:39:56] What was the one before the crown wasn't in the crown. Anyways. I don't know what show. It was some British show we were watching and just spending more and more time with him alone, and then we would go out with his friends and stuff, and it kind of just. Things just started feeling okay and normal again at that. I mean.

Bruce Bastian [00:40:16] But it was a very slow progress. We became. I always tell people, we. You know, we became friends first.

Clint Ford [00:40:24] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:40:24] And through those really dark years, we became the one person we trusted. We could tell anything we wanted to tell. We could. And we felt safe in our communication, and we built this just very. This foundation of communication and trust. And that's what it all.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Not knowing you could end up together.

Clint Ford [00:40:49] Yeah. I mean, it's funny because, I mean, obviously Bruce is older than I am, and so he has a lot more baggage and things. But I wouldn't say I know all of it. I think I know most of it, but I don't really care about it at this point, if that makes sense, you know, like, that was the past, this is the present, and you've each

John Dehlin [00:41:12] got your past, right?

Clint Ford [00:41:12] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Everyone does, you know, and. And it's a good thing that we were so low that we were able to, like, open up that communication, which has been, like, the foundation of our relationship is, you know, we talk about everything. Even if it's uncomfortable, you don't want to. That's what we do.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] So how long is the time between sort of you're really starting the date and you guys getting really serious, where you start talking about, like, maybe I could live the rest of my life with this person. How long was that time?

Clint Ford [00:41:40] When did I move in?

Bruce Bastian [00:41:42] It was from the time you moved home and then you went to the apartment in Sugar House. And before. I mean, when I first suggested that you move in here. Oh, hell no. I was. That was not even around that.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] When was that?

Clint Ford [00:42:02] I don't know. Was it 13, 14?

John Dehlin [00:42:04] So six. Six years ago? Six or seven years ago, yeah. You want him to come move in? And what are you thinking, Clint? You're like.

Bruce Bastian [00:42:12] Well, I mean,

Clint Ford [00:42:14] it's. It was a little overwhelming, the idea of moving in for several reasons.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Was it commitment? Was it just like an uncertainty?

Bruce Bastian [00:42:27] Well, the last. The other time you moved in with

Clint Ford [00:42:30] a guy, it didn't end up very well. There's a lot of things I felt like if moving in what was like, take. Took away some of my, like, individuality, I guess, in a way, like, I was. But then I realized that I'm building a relationship. And although I still have my individuality, we have like a. A relationship personality. I don't know what you would call it that had I not moved in, it would have never grown to anything more. And so, like, the next step was. I mean, were we just going to be on the fence for the rest of our lives and were we just gonna.

Bruce Bastian [00:43:13] We. Were we just going to be friends and that's where it was going to end? Or what? Were we going to take it or at least attempt.

Clint Ford [00:43:19] Attempt to take it to the next step?

John Dehlin [00:43:21] Now, Bruce, you had been jaded and kind of disillusioned. So what made you think you could hope. Hope for something when. When you had had so many bad experiences?

Bruce Bastian [00:43:35] I don't know. I. I guess maybe I'm kind of a. A hopeful romantic or a dreamer, but. But you're right that the other relationships I had been in were all pretty good until I attempted to actually have a mutual relationship where we actually lived together. And that's where things always fell apart. Okay, so you're right. What made me think I could make things different with Clinton? I think it was just because I just felt so comfortable, and so. I just trusted. I felt like I actually got to know him. I wasn't asking a stranger to move in. I was asking by this guy who was rapidly becoming my best and most trusted friend.

Clint Ford [00:44:39] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:44:41] So.

Clint Ford [00:44:42] Yeah, so I moved in and I guess that's. We ended up getting married a few years later.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] Okay, what year were you married?

Clint Ford [00:44:53] 20.

Bruce Bastian [00:44:54] 2018.

Bruce's Marriage Equality Activism

John Dehlin [00:44:54] Okay, so, Clint, you would have been with Bruce during the the lead up to marriage equality. So would you have been helping Bruce and sort of accompany Bruce in his activities with the hrc?

Clint Ford [00:45:06] I would always go with Bruce to all the HRC events and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] So what was that like to kind of become an activist yourself, or did you think of yourself that way?

Clint Ford [00:45:14] I. You know, that's funny because we were talking about this the other day. I'm like, do gay people. Are we just automatically activists? Like, what. What. How did this all happen? And I think the experiences I had in school and the experiences I had in my 20s, they were not okay. And I don't think they would have happened in a world where LGBTQ people were. Were more accepted. And if. If one person's life can be changed by getting involved, then I think I've done something great. If one person can go through school without being bullied, I think I've done something great. And Bruce always. Bruce has always said, you know, you have a story, and you've. You've seen a lot of this stuff happening in your own life. Like, we could. We can change that. We can. Or we can at least work to try to change. Try to change it. And so I guess I was. My youth was turning me into an activist, and. Which is kind of nice.

Bruce Bastian [00:46:21] I mean, what is an activist? An activist is someone who sees something wrong and wants to change it, whether it's for himself, herself, or just for humans in general. I mean, we celebrated the life of John Lewis, and he was an activist, and he basically stood on. If. If you see something wrong, do something.

Clint Ford [00:46:47] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:46:48] Stand up, say something. Do something. And I think so. It's hard to be. It's hard to live a life as a gay person and not do something.

Clint Ford [00:47:00] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:47:00] I mean, there are a lot of them who don't do much. I agree. Get that. But there are a lot of them who do even little things, you know,

John Dehlin [00:47:10] so as someone who kind of watched a bit from a distance, you know, I attended Equality Utah galas or allies dinners for years. I attended HRC events, and I would all see you guys together. And I think that for those who are kind of involved in those communities, they have, you know, it's always Bruce Bashen. Well, Bruce Bashen is helping, and there's his name, and there's all the efforts. But the truth is a lot of that. A lot of those efforts have been. Both of you.

Bruce Bastian [00:47:37] Is that right in the last. In the last five, six years? Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:40] Yeah. And those are some important years, right?

Clint Ford [00:47:43] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We actually. The whole activism theme Was really, like, weird for me at first because it's. It's a different world and. But we actually, we sit down and we talk about the things we want to be involved in and the. And the efforts we want to help support. I iman. I sit on the board of his. Bruce's Foundation. So I'm involved.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] Bruce Bastion Foundation.

Clint Ford [00:48:07] The BW Bastion Foundation.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] Okay.

Clint Ford [00:48:09] Yeah. So I'm heavily involved in that. Those efforts that. See, it's. It's kind of like he was. So to digress a little bit, I never ended up going to college, which is something that I still think about. Maybe one day I'll do. Which is nice to hear that you did that later on in life and became a doctor. So I. So there's still hope for me. But like he said afterward, perfect and not working. Seeing the changes in, you know, activism, life is far more rewarding than any money or any degree or accolades you could get. And I'm starting to witness that. And I think, you know, like, it is rewarding and it's fulfilling and I'm happy to do it, and I'm glad. I'm glad that I'm actually involved and I'm able to do it.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] So you're saying if you do go back to school or if you pursue some type of education or training, it might be along the lines of nonprofits or philanthropic stuff because you've got the buck.

Clint Ford [00:49:08] Yeah, I've got the buck.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Yeah.

Clint Ford [00:49:09] And I see. I mean, I've seen it work. I've seen the change for marriage equality. I've witnessed all of that in my lifetime and a lot of change, I feel like in a short period of time. And that's very encouraging. I mean, I know the last couple years have been kind of rough for different reasons, but I'm hopeful and I. And I think that it's.

Bruce Bastian [00:49:36] You start to realize that change doesn't happen on its own. This arc of equality has to be pushed. And that's when you feel like you're actually part of it. It's. It is amazing feeling.

Clint Ford [00:49:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] So when same sex marriage was legalized in 2015, I imagine it was a great time for you as well, Clint. Something you were really happy to see.

Clint Ford [00:50:06] I was happy to see it, but I was also kind of scared.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Why?

Clint Ford [00:50:09] Because it's like, okay, this is real. You know, like, now I can get. Now I'm like, actually a human being in society. I can get married. I can actually make a life. So, I mean, not scared in a bad way, but, you know, it was it was a change because I never even. Even though we were living together, I mean, we couldn't get married. So I never even really planned on getting married. And then that happened and it was like, oh, well, now you got to rethink of what you thought your life was going to be because now you have the option. You could, you could get married. Which, it was exciting and it was. It was kind of scary because. I don't know why. I don't know. I. I think maybe it's because I knew at that point our relationship would probably go on to the next level and we'd get married. And I. And I realized how big of a life change that is and, and how big that is in someone's life. A marriage, a union, like that. And so it was a little.

Bruce Bastian [00:51:02] But we. Scary. But we really didn't. We didn't talk about us getting married. We didn't know it was still just. Yeah, we were happy for everybody was getting married and everything, but we weren't, we weren't jumping off that cliff yet. No.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] So what led to that decision?

Clint Ford [00:51:21] Oh, I think a couple things. We had a year of gay weddings where we were traveling all over the place, like, watching all these couples get married, and it was wonderful. I. I would. Some of the most emotional times I've seen has been at these. Seeing our friends who've been together for years get married. We had. We have friends who have been together for 44 years and they could finally get married. It was like this, I mean, amazing. And we were on a date night kind of talking about it, and I think we both realize it's now or never, you know, like, what are we working for? What are we. What is, what is all this? What is all this? What's happening?

John Dehlin [00:52:05] It's for everybody else is what it is.

Clint Ford [00:52:07] What is this gonna. What are we doing with this? Like, should we get married? And we just kind of looked at each other and said, yes, that was what year it was? December 17th. December 17th. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] So two years after marriage equality.

Bruce Bastian [00:52:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Yeah, two and a half, three years ago.

Bruce Bastian [00:52:27] Yeah. Right.

Clint Ford [00:52:28] Yeah, three years ago.

Bruce Bastian [00:52:28] This is November.

Clint Ford [00:52:31] December.

Bruce Bastian [00:52:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] Okay.

Clint Ford [00:52:34] So.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] Oh, what was that?

Bruce Bastian [00:52:37] It was December.

Clint Ford [00:52:38] December 17th.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Yeah. Okay. So, Bruce, let's go back in time a tiny bit. When we did your interview 10 years ago, you. Your relationship with your ex wife was what it was and your relationship with your kids was what it was. Let's go back in time and talk about that evolution and bring it up to the point of your. Of your wedding, because I think it's nice to weave in family, and it's not always going to be easier or simple. Sometimes it's messy. But let's have each of you talk about how your family relationships dovetail into that special moment when you're married and what's. And what's progressed for your families from those early years until now.

Family Relationships and Coming Out to Loved Ones

Bruce Bastian [00:53:25] My. I have four sons. They're each wonderful, amazing fathers and husbands.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] And they're all married?

Bruce Bastian [00:53:35] Yes. They're all active LDS men.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] All four?

Bruce Bastian [00:53:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] Wow.

Bruce Bastian [00:53:40] And I, I think I said in a previous interview that I wanted to always keep the door open. I wanted them to always know that I love them. You know, there were certain things about me I was not going to change, nor could I, but I wanted to keep that path open. They're all older, they all have their own kids. This thing about fatherhood, the reality of fatherhood has kind of sunk into them all. My relationship with them has been more of an individual path than anything else. They're all their own person and I love that and I respect that. They all have wives who are, have become very supportive and loving of me and now us. And it just, it was just kind of a natural evolution. They lost their mother, which was a really hard time for them. But, you know, when one of your parents passes on, I think it's kind of normal that you kind of start looking at the one surviving parent in a slightly different way. And I think that might have been part of it, I don't know. But my relationship with them got stronger. But the fact that they, they supported us in our wedding, that we all, we have a really good, open, honest relationship with them individually and their families as well as collectively is. That's really, that's really important to me and so gratifying. So I have to tell you one special story and that's about one of my daughters in law. When she found out, when, when we, when she found out that we were getting married, she called and said she's

Clint Ford [00:55:54] coming over, I'm coming over.

Bruce Bastian [00:55:56] I want to meet Clint. Okay. So he kind of got.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] So your daughter in law says, I want to meet Clint. All right.

Clint Ford [00:56:05] On my way over, basically.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:56:07] And it was basically a family interview.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] She was checking Clint out. This is before the wedding.

Clint Ford [00:56:17] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Okay. Yeah. And.

Bruce Bastian [00:56:20] But she's great and she's been so supportive.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] So what was that interview like, Clinton?

Clint Ford [00:56:25] Do you know, it was obviously I was nervous and I didn't know. I didn't know what to think or what, or anything. Mainly because they had the kids and the daughter in laws really had never known anything about Bruce's private, personal, dating, romantic life. They just, that was not something that came up in conversations. I had met his older son at the New Yorker once. I mean, we've crossed paths a few times, but it was always, you know, his, his kids and that life and then our life. Just, it's just the way it was set up to be. And so, I mean, I didn't, I didn't know much about him. I didn't know what to expect. It was, it was, it ended up being wonderful and she was great. And part of it was my fault

Bruce Bastian [00:57:18] because I kind of tried to compartmentalize my children life, my life and my private romantic life. And that of course is all blown up and merged into one now, which is a good thing. It's part of what I needed to learn about living an honest, open, authentic life. Don't be ashamed of any part of you. If you have to be ashamed of any part of your life, there's something wrong there somewhere. And not that I was ashamed, but I was nervous about one segment, learning too much about the other segment. Why There was never a reason for that. So once we got rid of that down.

Clint Ford [00:58:12] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:58:13] Barrier.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] How was that to break that barrier down, that wall of separation?

Bruce Bastian [00:58:17] It was wonderful.

Clint Ford [00:58:18] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [00:58:18] And so much easier than I thought it would be.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you told, and we'll come to you in a second, Clint, when we told your sons and your daughters in law and maybe grandkids by this point that you're getting married, how was that for you to have to, to deliver that news?

Bruce Bastian [00:58:39] I, I called them each individually and had very honest conversations and it was, for the most part, it was very accepting, very rewarding, very good. So it went better than I, than I thought. But I was, I was not going to even contemplate getting married unless I wasn't hoping so much for their blessing as just for their, okay dad, you know, do what you do. But I got, for the most part, I got their support and their blessing and it's been getting better the last two and a half years.

Clint Ford [00:59:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] So Clint, you have this family and bountiful and I, I, I don't know what they were imagining for you, but I imagine that you saying, hey, I'm getting married might have come as a shock to them.

Clint Ford [00:59:43] It did and it didn't. I had my, I had two siblings who thought we ran down to the courthouse when Utah passed the marriage law and they thought we were down there and Ralph Becker married us they kind of already. They all.

John Dehlin [00:59:58] They.

Clint Ford [00:59:58] And even my parents even eventually said, we all just kind of figured you guys had already been married. Well, they're. They're all supportive. My siblings came. It wasn't a place for my parents to come. They just did not feel comfortable doing that. And that at first was. I mean, I knew that's what they were going to say. At first. It was kind of like, I can't believe that. But at the end of the day, it's. It's probably the best decision that, you know, they did not come. It would have changed the feeling of the day.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] But you are close to them.

Clint Ford [01:00:33] I'm still close to them.

Bruce Bastian [01:00:34] Yeah.

Clint Ford [01:00:34] Yeah. I mean, I go up and I see my parents when we're in town once a week and at least a lot.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] Yeah, once a week's a lot.

Clint Ford [01:00:39] Well, she still likes to have her Sunday family dinner, so I go up and participate in that.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Nice.

Clint Ford [01:00:46] And I mean, we talk a lot. It's.

Bruce Bastian [01:00:49] You are very close to your family for the most part. You and your mother and you and your sister talk a lot.

Clint Ford [01:00:56] A lot. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] It's nice that those ties have been able to. To stay there, even. Even if maybe the church can't always allow a full celebration of.

Clint Ford [01:01:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] What you guys.

Clint Ford [01:01:11] Well, and they're nice. They ask about Bruce and they ask about us. So it's not like it didn't happen, you know, it's not like they're living in this imaginary world where that we didn't get married. I'm not married. I'm not gay. I mean, they're getting better in every. I mean, as time goes on, you know, we. We talk about it more and more, which is nice.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Yeah. So any highlights from your. From your wedding? Where'd you get married? And any highlights you want to share about that?

The Wedding and What Marriage Has Meant

Bruce Bastian [01:01:36] We got married in Orem.

Clint Ford [01:01:38] In the house.

Bruce Bastian [01:01:40] At the house. It was a June wedding, so everything was.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Wayne Manor, I like to call,

Bruce Bastian [01:01:47] was quite a wedding. I think we had more flowers than most any other wedding I've ever been to.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] More flowers than people, maybe. Yeah.

Clint Ford [01:01:57] Well, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, it was nice.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Who officiated the.

Clint Ford [01:02:04] Chad Griffin. He used to be the president of the Human Rights Campaign. Yeah, so he officiated. It was really a special day. I was rooting for something smaller and quieter, but, you know.

Bruce Bastian [01:02:18] No, you weren't. No.

Clint Ford [01:02:20] Yes. I had a different wedding in mind, but Bruce wanted to have it here, so we did. I mean, it was.

Bruce Bastian [01:02:27] It.

Clint Ford [01:02:27] It was a magical day. We had friends from all over the world. They came and stayed with us for, like, the week leading up to the wedding. Really was.

Bruce Bastian [01:02:36] It was magical.

Clint Ford [01:02:37] Everybody was happy.

Bruce Bastian [01:02:40] So I have. I've had people. Since I built that house, I've had people request to have a wedding there. I always said no. So, yeah, maybe I pushed it. I'm sure I did push it, but I. I said I want there to be one great wedding at this property, and I want it to be mine, so. So we did.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] You got it.

Clint Ford [01:03:04] Yeah, it was. It was. It was quite a day. Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:03:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Go ahead.

Clint Ford [01:03:12] Oh, no, you go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] What was it like to be able to enjoy the thing that you had been fighting for, for others for so long?

Bruce Bastian [01:03:21] Emotional.

Clint Ford [01:03:22] It was very emotional.

Bruce Bastian [01:03:25] I got teary. I mean. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Why?

Bruce Bastian [01:03:31] Because it never really hit me until that day. The. So much of my energy and my money has been spent on trying to get to that spot. And then it was finally happening, and it was like, wow. It was just. Yeah. I'm glad we didn't run down to the courthouse.

Clint Ford [01:03:53] Yeah, me too.

Bruce Bastian [01:03:54] When we. When we. The first chance we had, we did this very purpose, purposely and thoughtfully, and really, every minute of that day, we. We thought out and planned and. And then. And then it all. The reality of it all hit, and it was really something. Yeah.

Clint Ford [01:04:15] I mean, it was pretty amazing to see, like, my siblings, my family there and Bruce's children there, and my sisters. Yeah. And versus siblings.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Grandkids.

Bruce Bastian [01:04:27] No, no grandkids. Nieces and nephews.

Clint Ford [01:04:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:04:34] I had a. I had a huge amount of family support there and people I had known professionally and friends in the community. It was. It was a full bandwidth of our lives. Yeah, yeah.

Clint Ford [01:04:51] And sections of our lives that people came to support us. It was. It was. It was actually like, okay, thank you. Like confirmation or validation. Validation. Yeah. Like, it really felt good. And have everybody there together and have them supporting us was something I never thought would happen. I mean, I just didn't. And it did. And it was a beautiful day, and

Bruce Bastian [01:05:13] I'm glad we did it big now, because it was. It was something that we and everyone who got to be there will always remember. It was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] What has, Bruce, what is being married meant to you for the past three years?

Bruce Bastian [01:05:35] It is. It has really taken down all the barriers, and I think I really am on this kick now of authenticity. And you have to erase the barriers. You have to get rid of all the things that cloud your life in any way. And I just think that process is. It takes guts, maybe, but it's actually easier to do than some might expect. You just have to say no. That thing or that person or that process doesn't really reflect who I really am. So either change it or get rid of it. And I think that's why I can honestly say I'm happier than I've ever been, is because I was able to get rid of or change some of those things that weren't, allowing me to just be you, be who I am.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] You do seem more calm or strong or steady or certain just in your demeanor than 10 years ago. Who knows you can grow that much in 10 years.

Bruce Bastian [01:07:06] Well, it's his fault.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] Has that helped?

Bruce Bastian [01:07:11] Oh, my God, yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] He's helped in your personal growth?

Bruce Bastian [01:07:15] Oh, yes. Yeah, He's. First of all, he knows me, and I can't pretend to do something or be something that isn't really me because he calls me out.

Clint Ford [01:07:34] And likewise. I mean, it's. It's both ways. Both of us are much more calm, and I don't know if it's confidence. I don't know what we both got from being married, but we both have a sense of, like. Like our aura is just much better. We're better. We feel like we're better people. We feel healthier. We. We feel like we are who we are, and there's, like, no hiding it.

Bruce Bastian [01:07:58] And in some ways, so I can go out and I. And I get to the point. So you may not love me or appreciate me, but I got one person who does. And regardless of what this other person or I can get to the point where this is what matters the most. And as long as I do things that I know he will approve of or appreciate, I'm okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] Isn't that wonderful?

Clint Ford [01:08:32] It is wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:08:34] Yes, it is absolutely wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:08:36] And what would you add, Clint, to that?

Clint Ford [01:08:37] I. I was. I was going to just say that basically the same thing is that I think it's given us a sense of, like you said, we're valid, where we've been, that gives us this. This ownership of our relationship, of our life. And it's a statement that we love each other and we're committed to each other. And. And, I mean, it wasn't something that we took lightly. I mean, it's been in the works for years. And I would say it's comforting. I guess being married is. It's comfortable. I don't know. I mean, it's. It's. I feel fine. It's. It's a nice. It's a nice feeling to have that I. That I never thought. I never even thought There was that feeling of comfort and safety and love, you know, like. And it's nice to have an honest relationship where. Where we actually talk and communicate and we're. We're uplifting each other. We're not. We're not. We're not unhealthy for each other. We. It's good.

Bruce Bastian [01:09:35] People's. People have asked, so what's changed since you got married? And really nothing, but really everything.

Clint Ford [01:09:42] Everything. Yep.

Bruce Bastian [01:09:44] So what. What we do in our daily life hasn't changed really at all, but how we do it and how we feel about the things we do has changed a lot.

Clint Ford [01:10:00] Yeah, it kind of makes. Well, I would think, for you, fighting for marriage equality kind of paid off.

Bruce Bastian [01:10:06] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Clint Ford [01:10:10] Which is nice. You know, it's.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] That's good.

Bruce Bastian [01:10:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] Beautiful. So let's take a couple. I don't want to say tangents, but side routes.

Reflections on LGBT Issues and the Mormon Church

Clint Ford [01:10:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] There is this idea that, okay, we got marriage equality now. Life's good for LGBT people. We're all good. We can all go back to our straight lives or whatever other lives we have, because now we've checked that box. You guys got what you wanted, and people don't need to be worried about the LGBT rights or, you know, the environment in. In this country. Tell me how wrong I am. Is there still work to do? And if so, what's the work that needs to be done? Since I'm sure the activism hasn't died just because you're married?

Bruce Bastian [01:10:54] No, I would think. I would say in a lot of ways, life for gays and lesbians has improved. In a lot of ways, the lives of transgender people has maybe gotten worse because there are. There aren't any laws on the books really, protecting trans people in most places. So the legislators and the. The. Excuse me, but the anti rights ultra or the ultra right conservative people, they find an opening for the trans people, and that's who they're going after. And it's mean. I mean, there are the. The. The number of trans women who are killed every year, and that's going up and up and up. It's disgusting and it's horrific, and.

Clint Ford [01:11:52] And it's typically trans women of color.

Bruce Bastian [01:11:55] Yeah. So you get trans and racism all in one, and it's really hard to watch that. That has not been improved. It certainly hasn't been solved, and it's getting worse. You still have a lot of places in this country where you can be fired if, you know, you can get married. You can get married on Saturday and get fired on Monday. You can get kicked out of there's no protection in housing. You can be denied all kinds of things just because you're gay, you're gay, or you're lesbian, you're a same sex couple.

John Dehlin [01:12:34] Same people can get trans or trans

Bruce Bastian [01:12:36] or trans or trans. But you can get married now as a gay or lesbian couple and still get a lot of discrimination thrown at you from many, many angles. That hasn't, that hasn't changed.

Clint Ford [01:12:53] It won't ever change. I mean, I think we'll always be constantly fighting for people's rights and for people to be respected and loved. I mean, I don't. If you look over. I mean, look at history, we'll be fighting for it, for, for it always. I don't think it will ever. It will never end. There's always an issue that needs to be rectified or fixed.

Bruce Bastian [01:13:13] I hope in 10 years that will be different. But it's not going to happen without activists and people actually pointing out the discriminations and the horrific actions from a few. Not. It's usually not a lot of people. It's just a few who feel empowered to exercise their hate.

John Dehlin [01:13:38] So your work with the HRC and with the Bruce Bastian foundation is now the foundation. Is there a foundation with both your names on it? Okay, so. So your work with the foundations will continue, is that right?

Clint Ford [01:13:51] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:13:51] Oh, yeah.

Clint Ford [01:13:52] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:13:53] There's not less need. If anything, there's more.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:13:57] So.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] So let's switch to, you know, this is Mormon stories, right? This is Mormon stories. We got to talk about Mormonism. So 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it was a sin to be gay. It was evil to be gay. Evergreen was around conversion. Reparative therapy was kind of the option. Well, it was celibacy, mixed orientation marriage, but reparative therapy. A lot of hate speech against LGBT people in general conference talks and other things. The church wouldn't even use the labels gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender.

Bruce Bastian [01:14:39] What. I don't think they still do. Not. Certainly not in conference.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Right. It's, it's, it's. There's still problems, but let me just, I'll say. I'll set up the, I'll set up the softball for you to hit it. So there's definitely the church like to reject this idea that there was any biological basis for same sex sexuality. And so you could say a lot of things have changed. You could, you know, Evergreen's dead. There's still North Star, but Evergreen's dead. The church doesn't seem to be overtly backing conversion therapy like it Used to the church came out with the, you know, gay. What was it? Lds, Mormon and gay. Yeah, right. The Mormon and gay website, website.com or whatever. They, they started to try and say, you know, we don't know what causes it. Backing off from saying it's not biological and backing off from saying it's a choice. It seems like they're not like targeting same sex married couples to like kick them out of the church like they used to it. I got the sense that they've backed off of that a little bit. Even the horrible 2015 exclusion policy got rescinded a couple years later. So what if somebody were to say to you, man, it's, it's a great time to be gay and Mormon and, you know, so what, is there anything you guys want to share? Not. And this isn't a bash the church. This isn't. We're not trying to, you know, attack anyone's faith. But same question around the church and the LGBT situation. What do you guys have to say about that?

Bruce Bastian [01:16:23] Go ahead and start.

Clint Ford [01:16:27] Well, for me, because I never really felt like I had a relationship with the church, so I look at it a little bit differently than Bruce. I am aware of the issues that the church poses when they come out with policies that attacked LGBT community members or their children or children of same sex couples. I, I think, I think they're a business and they're just doing marketing PR stunts to calm us down or to ignore us for a minute. But I don't, I don't think anything will change in like the Mormon church that will ever allow you to actually be an honest, real Mormon and a gay couple and be gay.

John Dehlin [01:17:14] So when I mentioned all those changes, I hear you saying all of that sort of window dressing. What they, what they haven't changed is what's central. What's central?

Clint Ford [01:17:22] Yeah, and they won't, they won't change it won't change it because it's, it's. They, they, they feel marriage is between a man and a woman. They'll. That will never, ever change.

Bruce Bastian [01:17:30] Like, so what central is their belief in the hereafter, in the celestial kingdom. And the only way you can get there is through eternal marriage in the temple. And you can only do that as a man and a woman, that all of God's blessings will never be available to you if you. Same sex couple. I mean, the church outlawed polygamy. They still practice polygamy in their temple ceremonies. Men can still have multiple wives sealed to them one at a time. One has with one. If a Woman passes away, he can get married in the temple to a second wife or a third wife. Women can't do that. The sisters can't do that. It's just the basic teachings and beliefs of the hierarchy of the LDS church has not changed. They try to soften their language and they try to seem more welcoming. And yes, we could, we could go to church as a gay couple and we wouldn't be shunned or ostracized. I don't think we'd be have the red carpet rolled out for us either. It's just, and that's okay. You know, I've never fought. In all my years as an activist, I have never fought to be able to go back to the Mormon Church as a full high tier member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint. I wanted him to get out of my way so I could have the legal civil rights as a human being, as an American who pays taxes. I wanted to be and lots of them by the way. I wanted to have the same rights as a heterosexual person couple. That's what I've been fighting for. But I don't, so it's not my issue. I personally, down deep, I really don't care what the church believes or not believes as far as homosexuality. The only thing I care about is these younger people, kids who, who feel that they are less than whole, that there's some part of them that is evil in God's eye and that makes them feel alone, hurt, scared, inferior, suicidal, inferior, broken. Yeah, that's what I don't like. If the church would just stand up, anybody would just say from the pulpit, it's okay to be gay.

Clint Ford [01:20:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] Not just okay. I bet it's fabulous.

Clint Ford [01:20:29] That would be asking a lot. But if they would just say you're okay to be gay. It would, that would.

Bruce Bastian [01:20:37] What God wants most is for you to be happy, healthy, healthy, fulfilled and be able to be an authentic human being. There are scriptures that point that out. My favorite one is still know the truth and the truth will set you free. Took me a long time to just fully engulf that, embrace that of being true in every, in every aspect of my life. But it's true. When I finally got, when I finally got to the point where I was authentic, wow. The happiness of heaven poured down upon me. I should write scripture. But it's true. Men are that

John Dehlin [01:21:28] they might have joy.

Bruce Bastian [01:21:29] Man, man is that he might have joy. Okay, that's another one. You can't have joy and live a life of lies. You can't it's impossible. So I am. I don't want to seem ungrateful. I am so thankful that the church has eased up on a lot of things in the last 10 years, and I am very thankful, and I know it has helped tens of thousands of people. But would I say that LDS church is gay friendly? Probably not.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] So as I kind of think about this a little bit, here's how I think about it, and I'm restating some of the things that you said. So, yes, Evergreen's gone. Yes, conversion therapy isn't promoted overtly, but at the very, very core, a young Latter Day Saint LGBTQ person feels broken, feels inadequate, does not feel whole, does not feel like they are embraced and loved and celebrated as they are in the sight of God and their heavenly parents. So you can create all the websites you want. You can even work with the Utah legislature and pass some legislation here and there. You can have lots of PR statements that say, we love everyone, and. And you can even ease off some of the rhetoric. But if those LGBT youth and children and adults don't feel at their core like, number one, their heavenly parents adore them as they are, that they're whole and perfect and beautiful as they are, then you've done relatively nothing, relatively without there. Starting there.

Bruce Bastian [01:23:26] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [01:23:27] But that's just the beginning. Because what we've heard from today's interview is how transformative it's been for both of you to be able to love who you want to love and build a life with them. So to say, okay, you're not evil LGBTQ people, but don't you dare fall in love with and marry who you really love either. Just suck it up and have a life of loneliness for the rest of your life as a celibate person. Try that, straight people, before you tell LGBT people, try and live that way. Try that. It's deadly. My research shows that living a celibate life is toxic, if not deadly. And then, secondly, okay, if you can't be celibate, marry someone you're not attracted to, and try and build a life with someone that you're not fundamentally attracted to, but somehow make that work, which is also, for many, a very toxic lifestyle. So if people aren't celebrated for who they are at their core, if they're not allowed to love and be with who they want to be with, and then if there's no theology, if there's no plan of salvation, if all this stuff about God and Jesus and the atonement and the afterlife, that's for those straight People, you ain't got no path. If you're gonna live that authentic life, there's no path for you. Then what have you done? The way all the websites in the world, all the PR statements, legislative acts here and there, to just kind of like it's all window dressing. It doesn't strike at what's transformatively meaningful. And it really comes to your beautiful story about how. Well, Clint, you didn't even see a life for yourself because in the church you were raised, there was no. They had no vision for you, so you had no vision for yourself. And even as you two are fighting for marriage for other people, you didn't see that as ever being a part of your life. And yet for you, what you're saying is that your marriage has been transformational.

Bruce Bastian [01:25:36] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:36] So until the church gives people that, they've done nothing. Okay, sorry, that's my soapbox. Tell me if you agree or not or what I missed.

Clint Ford [01:25:45] No, it's spot on.

Bruce Bastian [01:25:48] You have to have. You have to have hope in this life. And it's not just the LDS Church, it's almost all religions. There are a few exceptions, but they don't want you to be authentic or they preach against authenticity. They want you to follow what you're told, what you're preached about. And, and that. That might get in the way of who you really are. If you're lucky enough to fit in that box, great. And you are indeed very lucky. If you're not, you will never really attain eternal happiness. And I think it also, I mean, that whole battle, that inner battle, or however you want to call it, it really leads to people losing their testimonies because they. You know why? I don't think being a Mormon is a good, practicing, faithful Mormon. I don't think it's easy. I just don't. Maybe it's easy for some people, but, you know, when you're fighting this battle and you don't have any hope of it out of the outcome being happy, you just give up fighting the battle. One way or another, you leave the church, you estrange yourself from your family, or. Or worst case scenario, you commit suicide. So it's. There's just no reason to keep this sham going.

Clint Ford [01:27:38] I will say that maybe the. The fluff and the websites and them kind of soft, being calmer towards us or not, not as harsh on us, has given the members an ability to. To loosen up their opinions and open up their minds. And it's given the members a way to say, okay, maybe, maybe this isn't okay, maybe this is okay. But I think them, you know, like, the thing they did in 2015 was kind of damning for, like, children, but it gave the members an opportunity to start looking at things differently, if that makes sense. And I think that opened up a lot of hearts and Mormon families, especially those who have a member of the LGBTQ community in their family, I think it's kind of. It has helped, but it's not to the point where you're celebrated and encouraged to live LGBTQ life or whatever. Does that make sense? It makes all sense because I noticed in a lot of my interactions with family and friends who are, you know, belong to the church, they have a lighter understanding or softer spot in their hearts for us now than they did eight years ago, I would think.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] Yeah. And that's the part I didn't mention. But it's crucial. We know from the research of Caitlin Ryan and the Family Acceptance Project that when an LGBT youth or young adult feels highly rejected by their family, their, you know, three times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, three times more likely to engage in illegal drug use, and sometimes up to eight times as likely to attempt suicide. And it's whether it's. It's what you just said, Clint. It's whether the family rejects you. And I think we have to give the church at least a tiny bit of credit. I think there's maybe probably less rejection of LGBT people than there used to be within Mormonism.

Bruce Bastian [01:29:44] Yes.

Clint Ford [01:29:44] Well, they opened up. They opened up the dialogue that because of what they. Because of their stances on it, they've brought in that conversation to the dining room table, to dinner. Families are now talking about it, which before, like, with my issue, it was just. No, you're not. Don't talk about it. Don't bring it up. Keep your head down. Do what's right. We. We never talked about gay issues in my. In my family, ever. We're starting to now, but I think because the church has talked about it recently, families are now talking about it, which I think is a good thing. You need to talk about it.

Bruce Bastian [01:30:18] It's a great thing, and I really appreciate the church opening that dialogue. I wouldn't have the relationship I have with my children and grandchildren had they not said it's okay to talk about it.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] So are you going to thank the church for making some progress?

Bruce Bastian [01:30:35] I will thank the church. I will thank the church for making progress. And it's in some ways quite significant. I am not going to give him a pass, though, to be able to stand up and say, we love our. How do they say it? We love our gay brothers and sisters.

John Dehlin [01:30:56] Same sex attracted.

Bruce Bastian [01:30:58] We love our same sex attracted brothers and sisters.

John Dehlin [01:31:04] No, not yet.

Bruce Bastian [01:31:06] Not yet. You're getting there.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] Yeah.

Clint Ford [01:31:08] I mean, it's good. I mean, maybe them bringing it up and stuff may have backfired a little bit for them because people are like, I don't know if I can really support this. And especially when they're children. Some people, when their children come out and they. And they just can't. They just can't be okay with it. You know, it just.

Bruce Bastian [01:31:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] So tell me. Tell me. Oh, go ahead, Bruce. So tell me if this is progress but not finality progress, but a long way to go. Yeah, let me. Let's just. Let's. I know they're watching. Hi, guys. We have a roadmap for you, and we're going to do that today on our interview with. With Bruce and Clinton. Here's the roadmap. Just four little things we want for LGBT brothers and sisters. We want them to feel like they're perfect as they are 100% loved and perfect. Number two, we want them to be able to love who they want to love.

Advice and Hopes for LGBT Latter-day Saints

Bruce Bastian [01:32:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] And marry who they want to marry.

Bruce Bastian [01:32:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:04] And three, we want them to have a plan, a part in the plan of. The plan of salvation. If there's going to be a plan of salvation, let it. Let it include them.

Bruce Bastian [01:32:14] If there is an afterlife, the afterlife has to include them.

John Dehlin [01:32:17] Yeah. If you're going to have the afterlife include. Don't make it so that they want to feel like the only way they can be happy is once they die because there's no happiness for them in this life.

Bruce Bastian [01:32:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:26] And then the fourth thing is, is have it be so that family members don't just, like, tolerate or accept or don't reject them. Have it be such that not only them as individuals, but their relationships are celebrated as outstandingly awesome, not as, like, unfortunate, sad, substandard, sad relationships. Those are the four things.

Bruce Bastian [01:32:49] And I want to. I want to give a huge shout out to my kids because they do. They. They celebrate our relationship. They're happy and excited about our relationship and that they're all good Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] So that means a lot to you, Bruce.

Bruce Bastian [01:33:08] It means.

Clint Ford [01:33:08] Oh, yeah, a ton. Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:33:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:11] And Clint, do you have some support on your family?

Clint Ford [01:33:13] No. Yeah, my siblings are great. They are very great. We've had a different. The journey with my family has been different. With the journey with Bruce and his children, my. My family has been very supportive. They Came to the wedding, but. Yeah, and I appreciate that. I think it's great. And it means a lot to me.

John Dehlin [01:33:31] And I imagine if the church makes progress, it helps with your family.

Clint Ford [01:33:35] Yeah, Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] It helps your family make continued progress.

Clint Ford [01:33:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] So we'll hope for that. Still, good changes to come.

Bruce Bastian [01:33:41] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:42] And talking about this, this interview today is part. Is going to be part of that process.

Bruce Bastian [01:33:48] Yeah, yeah. Change comes from within, I believe. And that's an individual, an organization, a church, a company. Real change comes from within.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] So to kind of wrap things up, there's teenage Clint, there's young adult Clint, there's teenage Bruce, there's young adult Bruce. There are all these, you know, gay Mormon boys and young men and men, all these lesbian, you know, Mormon girls and young women and women, they're trans Mormons. Or there's those same groups of people that have kind of are starting to say, maybe Mormonism isn't for me, or maybe they left Mormonism behind. And if you were going to speak to those people now to give them some sort of parting words of wisdom, and in some ways, you're speaking to your younger selves, right?

Bruce Bastian [01:34:51] Yeah.

Clint Ford [01:34:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:52] From the vantage point now of where you are, where you're, you're. You're feeling very healthy, you're in a relationship that you love, you're married, but they're like, that seems so far away. How do I even get there now? Now you can be the role models for people, and everyone's going to have their own journey, but now you are standing as. As sort of models for. Hey, you. Here's something you can work for if you want to.

Clint Ford [01:35:19] If you want to.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] Yeah, if you want to. Look, we're doing it, right? You're doing it. So that's what's. For me, that's what's most powerful for this interview, is you're basically saying you can find health, you can heal, and you can find love. So for that kid or that teen or that young adult, it's like, but how do I get there? Parting words of wisdom from each of you. Let's start.

Clint Ford [01:35:43] I would say be patient. Be very, very patient. Because it's a process. It's not something you can just do overnight. And make sure you build a strong foundation of friends or family to fall back on when things get hard and make sure they're the right people that have the same standards as you. So that when you do fall back and things are hard, you're not getting involved in things you shouldn't be getting into. That's What I mean and be. My whole thing is be patient. It gets. Life does get better.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] I promise it gets better.

Clint Ford [01:36:16] It does.

John Dehlin [01:36:17] So don't lose hope.

Clint Ford [01:36:18] Yeah. Don't lose hope. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:36:20] Bruce, to the Mormon kid,

Clint Ford [01:36:27] Part of

Bruce Bastian [01:36:27] the Godhead is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost talks to you. The Holy Ghost doesn't tell someone else, not even your bishop, not even a general authority parent. The Holy Ghost is your link to God. Listen to that Holy Ghost. When you pray, don't pray for a specific answer. Open your heart, Open your mind.

Clint Ford [01:36:57] Be who you are.

Bruce Bastian [01:36:59] Be who you are. Be honest about who you are. The other thing of Mormon doctrine is freedom of choice. Remember that who you are and who you become is up to you. It's not for anyone to dictate. Not your parents, not the bishop, no one. So follow your own heart, your own, that, own that, that voice in your own head. And know that that decision is yours to make. And when you make it, hold your head up high and make it. And I wish, you know, don't be afraid. I know that's easy to say and not always easy to do. Don't be afraid. Have the courage and the will to be your authentic self.

Clint Ford [01:37:47] Yep, you said it much better than me. No, no.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] So I just want to say. I just want to say thank you. I want to say thank you, you know, Bruce, for your philanthropy and activism over the years. You were important part of my journey from the 90s on in tearing down my homophobia and bigotry, which I'm always going to be working on. But you were an early voice that woke me up. But even more so, your efforts at philanthropy and activism have enhanced the lives of hundreds of thousands, if not more people in Utah and across the country. And it's inspired me and it's meant a lot to me. You know, I have people in my life that have directly benefited from the work that you've done unselfishly and with the desire to save lives and improve the quality of lives. So I want to thank you for that, Bruce.

Bruce Bastian [01:39:02] Thank you. I appreciate. That's really. It's really nice to hear. Seriously, it's very nice.

John Dehlin [01:39:08] And I'm not done. Bruce and Clint, thank you so much for being willing to tell your story. It's not easy to tell your story, especially in Utah and in the Mormon culture, because people don't understand. People are defensive, People are afraid. But that little gay kid or that little gay girl or those young adults or trans adults, they need to see that there's hope and they need to see role models. And the only way they see that is when people speak up and tell their story and say, I got healthy and we found each other and health and love is possible. I think that's what most people want, is health and love.

Bruce Bastian [01:39:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:55] And thank you both for being willing to tell your story and be that spark of hope for new generations. Thank you.

Bruce Bastian [01:40:05] Thank you for allowing us to tell our story.

Clint Ford [01:40:07] Thank you for giving us a platform and many other people a platform to tell their stories.

John Dehlin [01:40:13] Yeah. And you don't inspire me as gay men and as a gay couple. You inspire me as human beings and as two people who love each other.

Clint Ford [01:40:28] Thanks.

Bruce Bastian [01:40:29] Thank you. That's really what it's about. Shouldn't have these subclasses.

John Dehlin [01:40:36] Your. Your love and your courage and your growth is inspiring.

Clint Ford [01:40:42] Thanks.

Bruce Bastian [01:40:42] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:40:43] And your philanthropy.

Clint Ford [01:40:47] Well, thank you.

Bruce Bastian [01:40:47] Thank you. It's been really great.

Clint Ford [01:40:50] Yes, it has.

Bruce Bastian [01:40:51] So all of you watching, so next time I'm going to interview John about how his life has changed in the last 10 years. Because it really has. And I'll just leave it at that.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] I'm going to hold you to that. That'd be really fun. You both can interview me.

Clint Ford [01:41:12] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:41:13] Oh, dude.

Clint Ford [01:41:13] Perfect. Yeah.

Bruce Bastian [01:41:14] Okay.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin [01:41:14] All right. Well, Mormon Stories listeners, thanks for joining us today. This has been super fun. Huge shout out to Gerardo, who's been helping me in the back with the audio and the video and all this amazing cinematography and lighting has been Gerardo's contribution to the Open Stories foundation of Mormon Stories. So huge thanks to Gerardo. Huge thanks to Bruce and Clint. Thanks to all of you who support Mormon Stories. It's been sketchy during the COVID time in terms of, like, wondering if we're going to be here next year or the year after. We have had some of you step up to help kind of plug those holes. So thank you for everyone who stepped in to make what we do possible. Please do consider donations to Mormon Stories. You go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button. Become a monthly subscriber. Bruce has been very generous and supportive of us historically and thank you, Bruce. But we always need your support. So if you appreciate the cinematography, the lighting, these wonderful stories, the ability to throw Gerardo a bone for his help, we need your support. So please do donate. Your donates make a difference. Your donations make a difference. We really are transforming the lives of many people that need it, and it's because of your generosity. So thanks for your support. Please continue it. Check out our new YouTube channel, Understanding Mormonism. We've got three videos up. One's coming. We've got a lot to go. We really want you to subscribe to that channel, let other people know. The idea is just a little short, 10 minute videos that talk about different areas of Mormonism that you can share with family and friends that can go viral. That's very, very different from what we've done in the past, which are five or 10 or 15 hour interviews. So check out Understanding Mormonism. Thanks for your support on that as well. And please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with any questions or comments. Please feel free to leave positive, uplifting, supportive comments on this blog post when it goes up. I'm sure Bruce and Clint would love to hear from you. If you have words of thanks or encouragement or support, we'd love to hear it. If you have ideas on future guests or topics, we'd love to hear that as well. And just let's keep doing great and beautiful things. We've got 15 years of Mormon stories in the bag. Let's do at least 15 to 20, 25 more in the future because there's a lot of work to do.

Bruce Bastian [01:43:29] There are a lot of great stories.

Clint Ford [01:43:30] A lot of great stories.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] Yeah, a lot of great stories. So thanks guys. Thank thanks, Gerardo. Thanks all of you. And we'll see you again soon on Mormon Story Podcast where these guys interview me someday. Take care everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.