Introduction and Episode Overview

Guest [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:00:26] today@mormonstories.org hello and welcome to Mormon Stories. This is Natasha Helfer Parker, and today we are going to be talking about sex. I'm thrilled to have Dr. Jennifer Finlayson fife back on the show. For those of you who probably already know, she did an episode about LDS female sexuality with me a few months back and she has graciously, you know, agreed to join us again. And I've invited John Dehlin to be part of this as well so that we can hopefully get her from both the female and male perspective on sexuality. So welcome Dr. Fife. And welcome, John.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:01:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Hey ladies.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:15] Now, for those of you who would like some background on Dr. Fife, she holds a PhD in counseling psychology from Boston College where she wrote her dissertation on LDS women and sexuality. So that's exciting. I always love it when there's research going on in this regard. She's taught college level classes on human sexuality and currently has a private therapy practice in Chicago. I'll go ahead and mention too, Jennifer, why don't you give a shout out really quick and may we'll mention it at the end. But you're about to present out in Salt Lake City, is that correct?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:01:45] That's right. So I'm coming out to Salt Lake September 23rd and 24th and doing a couple of seminars Friday night, the 23rd is one for LDS women and talking about desire, challenges and sexuality in general. And then on Saturday, I'm doing a couples seminar that's about five hours long with a lunch break in between for couples, LDS couples who are dealing with sexual challenges. And so yeah, the location is still to be determined. We're trying to find a place that will fit everybody, but there's more information about it on my blog. Do you want me to give that address?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:29] Yeah, why don't you go ahead and give that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:31] It's Dr. Jennifer Fife. So D R J E N N I F E R f I f e.blogspot.com and on there is more information about the seminar as well as where you can sign up.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] And we will include a link to that on this post.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:50] Correct? Well, I think that's just fabulous and I think that so many people are gonna benefit from that if they choose to Go and what a wonderful resource you're providing through that. So, yeah, so look that up and sign up if you can go. And if you're in the area. Well, today's focus, I think, is going to be one that comes up, I think, a lot for both you, Dr. Fife. And it also comes up quite a bit in my practice, and it's this idea of what do we do with low desire in a marriage from one partner? So, in other words, differences in libido. And it's a large kind of topic and happens for probably a lot of different reasons. But that's kind of where we'd like to start maybe is why. Why does desire often go down the tubes once we get married? So seems to be something that's not. That doesn't only just happen in our Mormon culture, but something that's teased about or joked about and, you know, in culture at large.

Why Desire Fades After Marriage

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:03:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Can I start with the question?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:03:52] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Does it exist to have both in the couple, have a high sex drive, or does it always sort of. There's this. There's this dynamic where one always has a higher than the other. What's most.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:04:09] I would say yes to both. I certainly think there's differences in couples and that there are many couples out there that both enjoy high desire. But I would also say that according to some of Schnarsh's work, who's a sex theorist, is that there's always a high and a low desire partner in every couple around anything that you have. You're always going to have someone who, relative to the other, wants sex more, even if it changes in the course of a night or in the course of a year or of your marriage. So that is a dynamic of couplehood,

John Dehlin [00:04:51] you know, and so a difference in drive, sex drive.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:04:55] Well, differences in desire, you know, so what I would say is it's not necessarily this sort of biologically determined reality that I think culturally we speak of it as being, you know, that you either have high libido and you have low, and it's somehow just part of, you know, your biological makeup. I think it's a dynamic. It's part of any. It's a systemic reality. And so what happens in less healthy couples, in my opinion, is that those differences get more toxic or more polarized because of the meanings that get attributed to them. Couples that are healthy are more able to tolerate those differences without it becoming divisive.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:33] And I think what you're also saying is that that can change over the course of even, like A night or a month or in a year. So it's not like the one person who has the higher drive is always going to be the person with the higher drive.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:05:46] Exactly. So one person can want it and the other person's less interested. So then they start to get offended and pull away. And then that the person that was lower desire 2 minutes ago is now feeling anxious. And so then they start to want it and the other person saying no. So, you know.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Yeah, that is the human experience, isn't it?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:06:05] So I think sexuality is much more of a language than it is some static reality that we often think it is. Men have high desire, women have low desire. I think it's much more of a kind of currency with which we exchange meanings. And so it's more dynamic and fluid than we often account for culturally.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Gotcha.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:28] Well, and I think there's also cultural peace, wouldn't you say, to the expectation that men are going to be higher drive?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:06:35] Yes, absolutely.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:36] And so how do we limit ourselves just through those expectations? Like maybe we would have higher drive as women if we would even allow that to be a concept or a possibility.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:06:47] That's right. So I think we are more inclined to punctuate those differences or shut it down as LDs women anyway, because I don't think there is a discourse on desire that legitimates female sexuality, legitimizes it. And so I think that you're right. Those cultural differences can certainly drive those differences as well.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:11] And this is a lot of what your dissertation was about. And I think a lot of what we talked about last time was these things that kind of get in the way of women's own ability to embrace. To embrace their sensuality or their sexuality. Correct?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:27] That's right. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:30] John, were you going to say something?

John Dehlin [00:07:31] No, no. Let's roll.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Let's dive in.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:35] Let's dive in. Okay, so back to the reasons, though, before we maybe go into other things. There seems to be some barriers to sexual access. This is one of the things that you wrote to me in this email, as far as things that we've prepared to talk about today. Barriers to sexual access when dating as an couple. Can you talk about that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:58] Yeah. So I think there's. First of all, I think it's not specific to members of the church necessarily, but I think there's certainly, you know, the reality or the experience is that when you're dating, you both had high desire, or at least relatively high desire. And then once getting married, there's this huge shift in. Now that sex is available now, one person or both people don't want it anymore. And it's kind of this cruel joke, culturally, I think, is that when LDS members of the church are dating and they can't have sex, they both want it. And then once it becomes available, now somebody doesn't want.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:37] It's a classic forbidden fruit idea, right?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:08:42] Exactly. And so I think there's a lot of reasons for it. And one of them, as you were saying, is this idea that barriers drive desire. You know, you think about films, romantic films, the whole film is about the barriers to conquering. Right. What you desire. And I would also say that love and desire get completely entangled in those kinds of stories, that love and desire are one and the same thing, which I think are not one and the same thing, which I don't think we'll have time to get to today. But I think that. So it's like trying to get the girl becomes the. The proof of one's love and proof, and it drives the desire and the longing up. And as soon as those barriers are gone, you know, when he's just lying there naked with just his socks on, it's not that compelling. Right. Because you now have access to him and you don't necessarily want access. Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] We don't leave our socks on. That reminds me of the Flight of the Concords song. Have you guys heard that song, Business Time?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:50] Oh, yeah, I've heard it.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Okay, I'll have to. I'll have to include a link on the business time. These are my. These are my business socks. Because we're gonna have some business time. Okay. Sorry, that's a diversion.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:10:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] So.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:10:04] So it's not that compelling, but when you're dating and you're not sure that he's that into you and you're not sure if he's gonna call and all that, that. That anxiety, that uncertainty, certainty drives desire. And what often happens in marriage is we want more certainty. We don't want all the anxiety. You don't want to wonder when you're married if he's still into you.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:22] Right, Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:10:23] And so we start to basically create more certainty and more predictability. That's why we get married. We want to have that person now more available to us. But then the mystery can often then become less available. It doesn't, you know, now we have what we wanted, and it's hard to want what you have. Right. So the barriers to access are certainly a function. I think another reason why desire often plummets upon entering marriage is that when you're dating, it is A hormonally drenched state. Right when you're falling in love with someone, your brain is flooded with dopamine, according to the anthropologist whose name loads me right now. But that basically your brain is flooded with dopamine. It drives attachment. It shuts down the discernment centers. And so there is all kinds of fantasy and projection happening. And so you're projecting onto your beloved all kinds of illusions about who they're going to be for you. And I think that we culturally teach each other that marriage is a solution to challenges in your value and to your happiness, that you're going to find someone who's going to make you happy. And in that early stage, you are projecting onto that person. They are going to make me happy. They're going to want what I want. They're going to like what I like. They're going to support me in all these ways, and I will do the same for him. And it's not only are you getting from them that they find you desirable and attractive. And people, you know, there's studies that show that people tend to have sex with the people that make them feel good about themselves. And there's a lot of that going on in an early relationship. There's a lot less of it going on 10 years into marriage, sometimes a few days into marriage, you know, because there's. As that proverbial honeymoon ends, there's a lot of frustration and anger and why aren't you supporting me in this? And why are you leaving your socks there? And so on.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:34] We're realizing that we're not as tuned into each other as we thought we were during the honeymoon phase.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:12:41] Right. And so then I think what happens is you don't just have this positive, reflected sense of self as Schnarsh talks about. You don't just have this, you know, they think I'm awesome, and I think they're awesome, and we just mutually validate one another. Instead, when you have to move into the rigors of marriage and trying to work out a life together, it really starts stretching your sense of self and your perception of reality and your anxieties start to go up. And the person who is making you confront your own limitations is now your spouse. And sometimes they just don't seem so sexy anymore.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:19] Well, going back to. I'm sorry, but going back to the anxiety part, this is why I think at times you can see unhealthy couples who are high in conflict, lots of uncertainty, lots of anxiety, having great sex lives. Right. Well, I think. I know that's not totally common. And we don't want to say that's healthy, but I'm saying that that might be a reason why some of those couples can. They're not struggling in their sexuality. They're struggling in other areas.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:13:46] That's right. And I would say, you know, I would say they're very passionate in that there's a lot of insecurity in the marriage. That's what I would say. So in the early. As Esther Perel, a clinician and theorist in New York City, talks about, is that, you know, there's as much passion in a marriage as passion is related to the amount of uncertainty you can tolerate in a marriage. And there are healthy forms of uncertainty, and then there's unhealthy forms of uncertainty. In some marriages, where there's high levels of uncertainty because there's affairs going on or it's. There's a lot of insecurity in one partner or both. Those can often be passionate, although anxious marriages, anxious attachments, so to speak. So I agree with you that the passion is not, as I said earlier, love and desire don't necessarily correlate with one another, even though we would like to think that they always do. Right. So, you know, love is more about security and safety and giving of self and desires, often related to uncertainty and exploration and novelty and movement. Right. And creating a marriage in which those two can coexist is a challenge. Now, I personally think it's one that's really developed. Develop through our own development as human beings is how we can hold both. It's really through our differentiation. But it's not a small challenge that many people do not achieve in marriage. And therefore, that's why very few marriages, I think, are passionate and loving at the same time.

Gender Differences in Sexual Desire

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:30] John, you were going to ask something before I interrupted you.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] No, no, no, we're good. We're good. So did you just say that lots of marriages are not passionate? Is that what you said, Jim?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:41] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] So you see that that's the norm, that marriages are not passionate.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:46] I would say marriages are more often functional than they are passionate. And even though we don't believe in arranged marriages, ultimately that's kind of what evolves or devolves. I think that when people get married, there is a lot of passion on the front side. But then in the effort of trying to create some sense of safety and security, that people often sort of de. Eroticize one another. And the notions of kind of what family means, especially as they begin to have children, pushes them towards a kind of cleaned up Notion of family life that doesn't include passion and sexuality and eroticism and playfulness that many people have come from families where sex just wasn't named. It was peripheral at best. It wasn't kind of integrated into the reality of living and of family life. And so for those people, it's really easy to kind of strip the marriage and the family of sexuality upon the birth of children. And, you know, it becomes functional. You know, you're parenting and you're providing and you're getting them to the birthday parties and you're doing all of that. But it's secure in a certain way. But the kind of appreciation and valuing and desiring is, I think, harder for people to achieve.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] And tell me if this is a common pattern. Tell me. I get a sense that it gets to the point where there's callings and there's work and there's kids and there's chores and getting things done. So the husband wants to make sure that he gets his release at whatever interval he feels like he needs. Once a week or twice a week, or once a month or five times a week, whatever the interval is. And maybe I don't know if it's common in Mormonism for the husband to make sure that the wife always achieves orgasm, but I'm guessing that in a marriage where that's not a priority, the wife isn't seeking that interval of a, quote, release. And so sex becomes less interesting to her because it's more about the guy getting his release and achieving what he wants. And if they happen to be in a marriage where the woman or the man's sensitive or the woman expects to also achieve orgasm, then it could also be where he gets his, she gets hers, and then they move on and it becomes very functional. And then in the worst case, they just kind of stop having a lot of sex. Are those patterns that are common?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:18:26] There's a lot there. What I would say is. Let me kind of go back to the first point. One researcher, and it's Esther Perel who told me this. I don't know the research, so I can't cite it. But what she said was that there was research that showed that there are two groups that have the most sex, and that's Mormons, and that's Orthodox Jews.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] What?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:18:49] Woohoo.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Mormons have the most sex.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:18:53] Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. Because desire on the woman's part isn't a factor. Right? That's why. Because it's a function of duty. It's not a Function of desire.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:07] Okay, so now I'm not. Now you're not.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] You took back that woo hoo. What's the opposite of a woohoo? It's a. Oh,

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:19:16] right. So if you. One of the challenges around sex in our modern culture is now we've linked it with desire. Now I'm saying kind of facetiously, it's a problem, but it does, does create another level of expectation. If it's a function of duty and giving a man what is his and being the right kind of wife, you know, it's probably going to happen more frequently. Now. I would dare say that those sexual events are not high in passion. Right. But sex may happen. It's just not going to happen with passion. Okay. Because sex can't be work and play at the same time. In my opinion. You can't have sex with, be dutiful and also have it be passionate, one or the other. So that much said. Okay. I do think that what you were saying about, I think what you were speaking to is that idea that men are the sexual beings, women are the accommodators. Their role in life and in marriage is to be supportive of the men and their needs, which I think women are very much enculturated into in our, in our, in the church. And I think that that's the way sex happens for many, many people now. It gets tiring for women and they start to feel resentful often, especially if they've been listening to too much feminist stuff and they start feeling like, you know, I am not into this because it's all about you and it's all about validating you and it's all about making you feel, you know, okay and, or you feeling validated. Because I think many higher desire partners, and I'm going to say men in this moment because of what your question, John, but you know, is it's masked as sexual desire. Like I want you, my wife. But really what it is, is I want you to validate me wife by wanting me. Right. I want you to boy up my sense of self. I want you to make me feel good about me. And so why aren't you wanting me, you loser? Right, so it's.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] Yeah, because men are wired to want that validation. Like it's not like we're pigs or bad people. I think it's just, well, we're all

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:21:28] wired to want validation.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] Yeah.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:21:30] And the wife's saying, well, you validate me by not wanting it. You're so hedonistic. Right? I mean, yes, we all want Validation. But that's our immaturity, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] What's better?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:39] And that's the, that's the woman saying, in other words, if you really love me, you wouldn't ask me to have sex with you when I don't want to. Right. So it really causes this. Catch 22.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] Oh, I see.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:51] Because they're both saying, well, if you loved me, then you would take care of my need. And the needs are different.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:21:59] Right. And I think that's the struggle of marriage. Because as I said earlier, the notion we're given going into marriage is marriage will make you happy. If you marry well, you will find someone who will make you happy. Happy. And that's a huge burden to put on a marriage. I mean, I know it sounds, I sound like I'm, you know, what's the word? I can't think of the word. It's an unorthodox position perhaps, you know,

Mormon Cultural Attitudes Toward Sex

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:22] but really it's not. When you think about the language, even within our Mormon culture of self reliance and I think totally dependent on another person for, for the things that, you know, I mean, this goes back to even, you know, Adam is not responsible for our sins. We're kind of responsible for ourselves. So there is, I think, Mormon ways to construct this in a way that is more helpful.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:45] Yeah, I'm actually not thinking of LDS culture as much as the larger culture because I think so much of the Disney films and all that, all the films, all the romantic films are about finding someone who's your soulmate, who's going to make you happy and fulfill you and heal those torn places in your soul. I think in our theology and when I talk about, when I teach the marriage and family relations class, I think the thing that is so divine about marriage is that it pushes you until it's hard enough, until you grow up and you learn how to actually love another person. You learn how to stabilize yourself enough to actually be loving, rather than this model that love is about need, fulfillment. Right. It's around, can I hold onto my sense of self enough to actually reach out to you and to take care of what you're asking for in this moment.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:35] Right? Yeah. So it's just loving another and loving yourself. I mean, it's really quite profound. I mean, it sounds simple, but it's really pretty profound.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:23:43] Right. And so John, when you say, well, wait a minute, isn't it just wired that we need that validation? I would say maybe you could do some therapy. But no, just kidding.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:56] John and I are gonna need to sign up after this session.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:00] And I feel bad for your wife,

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:24:02] but no, I'm just kidding.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:06] Just kidding. But no, I think that certainly nothing feels better. You know, and there's no question when our spouse can come in and validate us or show us that we're desirable to them or, you know, attend to us, it feels wonderful. I think the question is, what do we do when they're not able to do that? You know, can we basically hang on and remain centered and loving even when they're not able to come in and heal our wounds and make us feel secure and give us everything we're needing

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:24:36] in that moment and able to offer that in return?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:41] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:24:42] Okay, so we're saying that in an early marriage or in an unhealthy marriage, the model is each saying to the other, fill my cup or fulfill my needs. And you're saying that there's a more excellent way.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:58] Well, there is. And I would say those are exactly the sort of demands that get placed on each other that drive desire down. And so just talking about that transition from pre marriage into marriage, it's really that struggle around self development that interferes with desire.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Self development, yes.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:25:19] So what my position is, and I'm echoing again David Schnarsh's work, whose work I think is really excellent, is that passion and eroticism are not sort of predetermined biological realities. What they are is expressions of deepening selfhood. Or it's basically, we don't question the idea that the more developed we are as human beings, the more loving we're capable of being. But in a similar vein, the more passionate we're capable of being, the more passion and eroticism that we can express and experience because it requires a very solid sense of self to be able to do that.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] So you're saying psychologically healthy people have better sex?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:26:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Really?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:26:06] Yeah. I do think that we're going to.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] We're going to, we're going to, we're going to. That's going to be a boon to the psychology industry. That sounds kind of self serving. Two therapists and an aspiring therapist saying, come see us if you want better sex.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:23] Well, I'll back that up as far as I think that. Oh, excuse me, my dog is barking in the, in the background. Hi, doggy. Bad doggie. I think that that's true of anything, though. I mean, the better you are off psychologically, the more able you're able to tolerate things and, you know, cope with things, the better any aspect of your life is going to be. So sexuality is just One. One part of that. So that's how. Yeah, and you've mentioned Schnarge, like, three times already. And I will say, everybody, go out and get a book called Passionate Marriage. That's a great book for everybody's bookshelf.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:27:02] Although I find that some members of the church have a little bit of a hard time with it because he's. I'm not sure, but I think he's a little bit too graphic for many people in the church. And so they. They're like, do we have to keep reading it? So anyway, but I think the theory is excellent.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] It's called Passionate, Passionate Marriage. Marriage by Snarch.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:24] And I would. And I would just. I would just throw out the challenge that. Not that I want anybody doing things that they are uncomfortable with, but sometimes our discomfort isn't so much about it being right or wrong, but just this whole idea that we're not totally in tune with or comfortable with our own sexuality. So, again, when people say they're uncomfortable with something, I want them to at least be willing to explore the whys that might be going back to the men really fast. As far as what John was bringing up, I will say that, you know, with your saying that Mormon and Jewish men get more sex because, you know, they're expecting it or their women are feeling dutiful, I will say that I'm running across a lot of Mormon men who, although this may be the case, that they're getting sex, you know, in good amounts, you know, like two or three times a week, they're not necessarily feeling fulfilled by that sex because it is kind of the woman just lying there saying, well, get it over with or. And they'll complain about that and not complain in a kind of I can't believe her kind of way, in a very sad. You know, I'm really sad about this, and I don't feel like she really wants me. And I feel selfish, and I feel like just. I think their expectations of having this, you know, wonderful kind of romp and, you know, this passionate embrace together completely gets kind of snuffed out. And so I guess I do want to put out there that I don't think Mormon men. Mormon men are raised to be pretty compassionate, I think, in our faith at large. I do think there are some issues with patriarchy still that affect us all. But I think a lot of these Mormon men maybe, first of all, don't know how to get the woman to have an orgasm or haven't been educated about that. I think we have a lot of misperceptions about intercourse being a great way to achieve orgasm for women. And. And then they're very sad when they're kind of treated almost like a lower than, you know, well, you're a man, therefore, you're into your carnal needs more than I am. And there's almost like a belittling there.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] Who belittles who?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:29:41] Female to the male.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:42] The female belittles the male, but even the male belittles the male. You know, like, this is just kind of a cultural thing where men, like, kind of like you said, men are pigs. Men, all they care about are sex. You know, we have all of these. And this is not just a Mormon thing either. This is very much, you know, that men, all they care. All they can think of is with their penis. And, I mean, you hear these things so much, and it really. I see the hurt. And they almost turn into emotional small boys when they're talking about this.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] So there's shame. There's shame.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:12] Very much shame. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] Shame is evil. I hate shame.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:19] Well, anyway, I'm doing a podcast next week on Mormon matters about shame. So I can say on that.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] Yeah, I think I'm joining you on that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:28] Oh, are you okay?

John Dehlin [00:30:29] I think so.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:30] So.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:31] So, okay, I'm gonna go back to what you just said, Natasha. I totally agree with you, Natasha. And what I would say is that. Well, first of all, I do think that men actually do care about the women having an orgasm, and I think that their sense of self is really wrapped up in whether or not I can give her pleasure. I really think for men, that's sort of what makes sex feel satisfying for many modern men and modern Mormon men is feeling like I was able to give her pleasure and that she does have passion for me. And so the research that was cited, I'm actually kind of curious about it because I wonder how recent it was and how much that's shifted in the church, because I do think there's another desire that many Mormon men want is that I want to feel wanted by you. I know you love me, but I also want to know that I'm wanted. And I long for that. I long for that passion between us to go deeper into our relationship and to not just have it be so pragmatic and so functional. So I think that that longing is sincere and legitimate, and it isn't just based in hedonism. And I think that we're just based on. I think it is based in hedonism. I think it's often a real longing to have something Richer within the couple. And I think that speaking of anxiety, that oftentimes if the lower desire, let's say the wife in this moment, that she feels the pressure of his wanting and that triggers her anxiety because she doesn't want to feel so exposed or she doesn't want to be that want raw with him that then she can put herself back together by basically devaluing his desire and saying, what's the matter with you? That's all you ever want. And it's just a way of trying to belittle him so she can feel better internally.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Yeah. And. Oh, sorry, go ahead, John. Yeah, it's a total turn off, let's just say to a woman, although let's just assume and stipulate that the roles can all be reversed here. But it's a turn off for a woman to say, I want you to be excited by me. I want you to have passion for me. I want you to orgasm. Like all that stuff is like going to push her in the opposite direction. Pressure and sex or guilt or shame and sex or even like thinky stuff and sex often just don't work. Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:32:54] Yes, I think. Right. Because if she has to manage his sense of self through whether or not she can drum up an orgasm or passion, it's just. It burdens it too much.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] Yeah. I had a guy come into me for therapy and he was like, I want her to have a vaginal orgasm. It's really important to me. And I keep telling her, read these books, you need to have a vaginal orgasm. A clitoral orgasm is not acceptable. You need more. And she's like, I don't even want to have sex with you.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:23] Exactly, exactly. Right. Because it's become work. And exactly to your point earlier, John around, don't we all need validation? Well, that's when it's toxic. Right. Because he's saying you have to do this and be this way so I can feel okay about me. That's when his work really resides with himself.

John Dehlin [00:33:46] Well, and it can be both. It can be that he needs that and he wants her to have that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:51] Yes.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:52] Right. Like. Well, and that's when we start couching this into what is successful sex. Right. So again, expectations, I think of what we've been taught and we've been taught and I think you mentioned this, Dr. Fife, as far as just the. The amount of education, especially for LDS couples going into a marriage is drastically low. And so when you, when you have as your number one probably source for sexual education is maybe the one rated R movie you saw when you were 15 or 16, you know, and on top of it, there's shame associated with that. That gives you a very skewed perspective on what sexuality really entails and that it doesn't have to be just intercoursal or vaginal or any of those things.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:34:40] That's right. That's right. And so I think, you know, back to your original question, John, around sort of the. Some of the things that happen around that transition from pre marriage into marriage is that I think that as a group in general, in some ways, I think one of the great cultural gifts we have is in some ways we have, at least relative to the larger culture, more sexual innocence. And there's something to be said about that, I think, because there's a kind of sexual exclusivity that often happens and a kind of exploration that can happen together that isn't frustrating, fraught with anxieties around other relationships and other desires and all that. I think that potential is there. But on the other hand, a downside is that we're really lacking in good education about sexuality, about our bodies. What are kind of healthy expectations? As I talked about in our interview, Natasha last fall was around lacking, especially females in a good erotic education. The. They don't know their bodies. They don't know their own capacity for arousal and orgasm. And so I think that it really can limit us because we don't know where to go next. There's not good sources in general within the church around that kind of information. And there's a lot of anxiety about going outside of the church. Church framework to get that information. And so go ahead.

Mismatched Expectations Around Frequency and Intimacy

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Oh, well, I don't want to disrupt your train of thought, but there's at least three expectations I want to just get out on the board really quickly in terms of education. One is, what's a reasonable frequency? Like, what's the average like, I had this guy come in who said we never have sex. And I'm like, how often do you have sex? He's like three times a week. And I'm like, what? That's never really. And then I had him go search the norm. So how often does the average couple, married happy couple, have sex?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:43] Do you remember what it is? I think I heard it is about

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:46] two to three times a week.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:49] Hi, Natasha. I think I heard somebody recently say it was like 1.7 times a week.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:53] Oh, really?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:54] That was, I think, Barry McCarthy who said that. That's my memory.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:58] Yeah, I think that. Well, and when they say, you know, two to three times of Course, that's a norm. And that' of course, a lot of different numbers. I do know that, like, to be considered a sexless marriage, you're having, like, sex maybe 10 times a year or less.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:37:16] That's right. Yeah. So the thing is, I think that sort of how much some people have it versus others is not as important as what's really happening within the couple. I mean, like, I had a couple come in, they were having sex five times a week. Okay. And he was frustrated because he wanted it more.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] Whoa.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:37:36] Exactly. And, you know, when she managed to have it eight times, he was like, now we're getting somewhere.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:43] Right, right. Well, and this is such an important piece of it because I do think that. I mean, I do think it's good to know the norms as far as just kind of gauging yourself and educating yourself as to what's kind of out there. But you're right, if you're having sex, like, for instance, if you're having sex once a month and both of you are happy with that, then both of you are happy with that. Nobody's going to tell you that's unhealthy or you should be having it more. But you could be having sex five times a week, and one of you is not happy with that, and then all of a sudden that's. That's a problem, you know, in the marriage.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:38:16] Exactly. So I think, you know, I think the probably better measure, in my opinion, is how much authenticity is there in the marriage and how much authenticity is there in the sexual engagement. You know, it's sort of like if people get through the act of sex, even if it's five times a week, I'm not sure that that means that they've got anything healthy going on. So it's really about how much do I, in my opinion, how much do I dare to actually show up with you and share myself with you. You in this way and to this degree and really be present with you.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] Okay, so you're talking about kind of looking in each other's eyes, being gentle, being responsive, paying attention, listening with your body and soul, and really engaging in something romantic.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:39:09] I don't think you have to be gentle necessarily.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:39:11] Yeah, I was going to say, but

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:39:15] all those other things sound good, John,

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:39:22] But I think, you know, is it engaged? Is it real? Is there, you know, is it about you and me being together? Even if we're going to be playful and try all kinds of things, it's really about me being this willing to be this known to you to let you know My erotic mind to let you know what I think about. To let you know what turns me on. To show you my own capacity to respond. That requires going back to the point around psychologically healthy people. It requires an ability to really be okay with yourself, to let yourself be that known.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] And trust between you.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:40:01] Yes. And trust between you. Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] And intimacy. Trust between you. Okay.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:40:05] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:40:05] Yeah. There's a safety there of not being rejected because I think that's. And this is maybe where it comes back to Mormonism as well. If there's a lot of shame around sex or sexual issues or this inability to even feel like we can be sexual because somehow that's a sin, then how do we really show ourselves? A lot of this, I think is even being in tune with your, your own sexuality. And I think you wanted to speak to that as well.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Oh, yeah. So real quick. So. But there's still going to be frequency differences. So I can't imagine a couple having just really dramatic, emotional, in touch, connected sex. And this may be just me, you know, five, six, eight times a week. Like there seems to be a limit for how often the average couple is able to have that. But, but aside. But, but I think everyone, that that is what we should all do and strive for. That's what I'm thinking. But also, regardless, there's going to be this difference where you, let's say that ideally you have that connected whole, healthy, psychologically healthy, sexual. But then there's going to be the disparity between how often the other kind of needs the release. Is that feasible to say?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:41:15] Yes. I mean, I think there's always going to be differences and I think that there may be one who tends to want one thing. I was. There's so many pieces out there that I want to address. I keep forgetting to go to. But one thing I was, you see somebody brought up earlier, you know, I think that sexuality and the language of the body is a more comfortable language for men in general because I think women are socialized into a lot of anxiety in relationship to their bodies. You know, going into adolescence, you have to shape it. You need to be thin, you need to look right. And so there can be this kind of division, at least in my experience in working with women, between their sense of self and their bodies. The body is almost like their enemy and they feel a lot of shame about it. And so they look for intimacy often more through language, through, you know, service, through, you know, talking about feelings. I think men, you know, the mother tongue is the language of the body. That's the way we express ourselves when we're babies and the way we receive comfort and closeness is through the body. And I think that our culture allows men, it remains masculine and consistent with their sense of self to have the ability to express themselves through their bodies. So, you know, speaking to this idea of. Of looking for reassurance and to express love through sexuality, I think it's not uncommon for it to be men that feel that sometimes more than their wives do. But those differences, I just think are part of marriage. And again, it's really about how you manage those differences. And, you know, you understand when you're in a healthy marriage, you know, you don't feel. So how to say it, you're able to give. I think when you're solid within yourself, you're able to give without feeling like it's diminished. You. You know, you're able to say, I know you want it, and I care about you, and I want to be close to you too. And I can, you know, even though I wouldn't maybe choose it, I'm here because I know how you feel, and I want you to. I want to satisfy you. Meaning. But it's not like I have to.

Guest [00:43:19] I should.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:43:20] If I don't, I'm a loser.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:22] It's the difference between, like, what I call a lovey quickie and a quickie.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Okay, so one quickie is like, I care about you. I know that you need a release. I know you want this, and I'll enjoy it and give it to you, and that's okay. Versus, like, oh, my gosh, look at your watch, roll your eyes, kind of look at the wall and just wait till it's done.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:43:46] Right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:46] Yeah, right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:43:47] Which is a very, very different message. I mean, the person who's rolling their eyes and looking at the wall is trying to say, screw you, you know, back, meaning they're giving not a nice way.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] Are there other. Are there other options for satisfying the person who wants more frequency that we should put in our tool bag as options for helping each, you know, get what they need? So there's the quickie.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:44:14] Yes. Well, one thing I would say is that also there's the possibility of just calming yourself down. I mean, I think that especially Mormons know about self control. And I'm not saying that that's the answer always by any stretch, but I think that I don't see it as, like, in some ways, we as Mormons should know this more than anybody. I don't see it as like, you have this biological drive, and if you don't satisfy it, you know, that something negative is going to happen. I think that in a. When you have a functional marriage, there's flexibility on both sides, you know, so the higher desire person can also manage that disappointment without it being toxic to themselves or to the relationship. And so it's really more about, I think, emotionally what you do. Then, I mean, you can decide if it works in your marriage for the higher desire partner to masturbate. And if I think both people feel good about that, I think there's legitimacy to that option for sure.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] And as Mormon sex therapists who also are attending church, your guides have a thumbs up, thumbs sideways, or thumbs down for masturbation.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:45:26] Well, what I would say is. Certainly what I would say is it really depends on the meaning around the masturbation. If it's a way of basically not putting pressure on the lower desire spouse and they understand that's what you're going to do and you both feel good about it and there's no resentment in bitterness and, and you know, and they're thinking, you know, you could be thinking about your spouse in that time. You know, it's. It's really about what are you doing with it. If you're resistfully going down and looking at pornography or masturbating and you're pissed off and you're thinking, you know, so many other people would be so happy to have me as their spouse. You know what I mean? It's just a much more toxic move. So I think it's really around the meaning.

Relational Sex Versus Obligation Sex

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:12] One thing that you said in our last interview that I loved, and I use this word now all the time, is, are we having relational sex? And it's interesting to me how we automatically assume that intercourse is relational sex and masturbation isn't. When I think that there's a case for both of those actually being the opposite as well. So in other words, you can be having intercourse and be a thousand miles away and not be really connected. And you can be having masturbation present in your marriage where maybe you're, you know, next to each other or you're rubbing up against your wife's back or. And she's, you know, comfortable and feeling good that she's wanted, and then all of a sudden that's a connection, even though really the release is only going to happen for him.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] Okay, so do you guys know couples where one masturbates with the other present and that's okay?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:47:04] Oh, absolutely.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:47:05] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:47:06] Yeah. I think that's fabulous. And I think too, that there's Times when, especially in working up to that, because there is such a taboo on masturbation that some couples maybe just will say, you know what? Well, I'm gonna start by giving you permission, and we'll walk up, we'll work up to that. But maybe that's when the wife says, okay, well, I love you. Go in the shower, have a nice thought about me. And that's relational. But she's maybe not ready to either watch him or, you know, she's just not that comfortable yet. But.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] And you're saying there are active believing LDS church members who do this?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:47:43] Absolutely. But Jennifer, you can. I mean, this is not my interview.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:47:47] Well, I'm just thinking about the act of believing. I'm trying to think about sort of where these people necessarily stand, I think. Yeah, I don't see. Yes. I would say yes to that. I mean, I guess I would say there's a lot of permission given in the church for there to be. Be privacy in the bedrooms of married couples. And I think, you know, married sex doesn't make sex sacred at all. You know, it's really about what the meanings are around the sex that's happening. And I would say the same thing, as Natasha said so nicely around masturbation. It's really around what is the meaning that it holds for the couple, and is it pulling you together or driving you apart? So I think that it can be even erotic for people to watch their spouse masturbate or stimulate themselves. And that's something that I think some people enjoy participating in.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:48:42] Well, talk about vulnerability. To show yourself doing that to yourself in front of your spouse. I mean, that's a very vulnerable, intimate position to be in. And it's natural that we're uncomfortable being that vulnerable. You're taking a big risk, right?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:48:57] Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:00] So I guess I'm just very sacred about that. Yeah, go ahead.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:49:03] Yeah. And so I guess I'm just slow to kind of say there's any specific behavior that's either good or bad, because I think intercourse can be evil even in a marriage, depending on the meaning.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Can be rape, right? It can be rape, right, Absolutely.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:21] So, yeah, so we have a lot of, I think, stereotypes about what is okay and what is not okay. Oral sex definitely falls under this, you know, and especially with some of the communication from church leadership back in the 80s around this. But I think that the church has

John Dehlin [00:49:33] done now it's okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:35] Yeah, well, they've done a good job in the sense of their current language. I would not say that they've done a Good job clarifying. But I think that they've done a good job in what their current language says, which basically is this is between a man and a woman. And you know, obviously use some discretion, don't hurt each other, make sure it's consensual, you know, but they're not, they're not giving you, you know, the 10 items that are on the list that are okay and the 10 items that aren't.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] Yeah. And just as a, just a really side note, but I just have to say this because it was so beautiful. I was talking to a friend yesterday, a male LDS friend who is a believer. His wife's a believer, he travels a lot and he told me that they have Skype sex while he's on the road.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:22] I love phone sex. That's so great. I love it, love it, love it.

John Dehlin [00:50:26] And so they both have their max. They have Max and they're pointing the videos at each other. And that's the way that while he's on the road, you know, they stay intimate and he doesn't get into trouble, basically.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:38] That's great.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] The other thing he said is, he said I couldn't live without oral sex is what he said. I was like, wow, you were born in the right decade, brother.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:51] Well, I think that we can't live or not live with a lot of different things and sometimes we don't want to pigeonhole even ourselves because there are partners that are legitimately not comfortable, I think, with things such as oral sex. And you can have a good sexual marriage without one of the items on the menu. There's still lots of other great items on the menu, right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:51:15] I think you can have a very passionate marriage and be relatively conservative in terms of your behavior. And I think you can have as you can have a passionate marriage and have a larger repertoire of meanings and ideas or sort of meaning frames that you're willing to play with. And I think, you know, I just think there's a range and it really depends on the, the couple and the people within that couple. I mean, I think that that's the challenge of marriage, is that when you marry someone, if you're really going to love them, you're willing to know them. If you're willing to know them, it's going to stretch you. That's why the 20 year married couple sitting in the restaurant isn't talking anymore and you can tell who's the newly dating couple because they just can't stop talking. Is the 20 year married couple has talked about everything that they can agree on. And there's really not much more to discuss. It's that meaning what I mean is they don't want to bring up the things that drive tension and make them uncomfortable, drive their anxiety up. And so they would rather keep the marriage sort of contained to what they can both manage and navigate together, rather than letting the marriage push them to grow and become more mature, more flexible and so on.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:28] Well, this is a great segue even into, like, faith crises in a marriage, you know, that can be so difficult. And I don't want to minimize that at all for anybody because it is extremely difficult. But this is why I tell people, you know, you may actually come out on the other end closer to one another if you can manage that anxiety and that, you know, because you are having to face things that you're not in agreement with anymore.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:52:53] Right, exactly.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:54] And I think that's true sexually and politically and religious.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:52:58] Right. It's really what pushes self development, in my opinion, is when you can't rely on someone else to take your anxieties away, away. And so then you have to be more able to calm yourself down and to hold your sense of self and your legitimacy even when you don't have everyone else validating you at every turn.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:53:17] Yeah, that's pretty powerful.

Increasing Desire and Self-Knowledge

John Dehlin [00:53:20] So I have to. I want to make sure we touch on one thing that's connected. So we've talked about frequency. We've talked about psychological health of the individuals. We've talked about intimacy between them. We've talked about meaningful sex. We've talked about masturbation and other creative things as ways to supplement or balance when there's a difference in frequency. One thing that I want to make sure we touch on in addition to what you guys want, is how to increase female. And I'm sorry to just put it on females, but I think let's say a couple has all that, but the woman doesn't necessarily wants to figure out ways to increase her desire. What are some options for her?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:54:06] Well, I would say it really has for me. I at least need to first figure out why their desire is low. Sometimes it's about repression and not having ever connected with their sexuality. It's about really, their sexuality creates so much anxiety in them that they basically shut it down as a way to manage it. And if they really want. Want to embrace this part of themselves and to basically respond to the grief that their spouse may be feeling because of this underdeveloped part of themselves, then I think that it really is about her trying to begin to explore her own Capacity for eroticism and what kind of touch turns her on, what makes her desire, what kinds of thoughts and feelings make her feel sexual. And really, what I would say is tolerating the anxiety that will come up as she steps into that behavior. I would say for all of us, the way you develop sexually for any of us was around confronting anxiety at the point of trying something new. I remember having a boyfriend when I was in my adolescence and being very anxious about kissing him. And so I went and bought a book called how to Kiss with Confidence that I had stuffed under my mattress that my mother found.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:55:33] But anyway, now we have to do a parenting podcast.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:55:42] Exactly. So the thing is that here my anxiety was high because I'm now stepping into a behavior that I don't know, have a clue about, but my desire to conquer it was high enough that I was willing to step into my anxiety. Right. And so then I kissed him, and then I started to develop this part of myself. But at every step, you know, there's. You know, when you hear about French kissing, the response is, why would you want anyone to stick their tongue in your mouth and slobber? I mean, what is appealing about that? Right. But if you're willing to kind of move towards behaviors that make you anxious and explore them willingly, then you can develop and expand your sexual repertoire and your confidence within it. I compare it to playing the piano with people a lot. It's like they come in and they say, I can't play the piano. There's something fundamentally wrong with me. And then the question is, well, have you ever taken lessons? No. You know, have you ever tried? No, because I'm not good at it, so therefore, it makes me too uncomfortable. I mean, it's just the same idea that if you really want to develop yourself sexually, you have to. You have to step into that realm and explore it and tolerate the discomfort of that exploration.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] So let's be explicit for a second. How could a woman explore her sexuality and find out what works for her? What are some things she can do?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:02] Well, one thing that I'll just mention.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] And what might she discover? Give some examples of what she might discover through exploration.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:57:10] Sure.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:11] I just want to say just beforehand that one thing before you get started on all the more kind of psychological thing is that I always encourage women to make sure they have a full physical checkup and get any biological things out of the way.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:57:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] What are.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:26] So, in other words, low hormonal, you know, low hormones, or maybe there's a cyst that's making sex painful. Or you know, just get any, get a good physical checkup and check that off the list.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:57:41] Right. Painful intercourse is seldom just a psychological issue. I mean, sometimes it can be related to low arousal, but there's often a physical issue. And so getting it checked out, which basically exacerbates itself because if you have pain and then you start getting anxious about the next time you have sex, you're not aroused, you're anxious and afraid, which then means the likelihood of pain is even higher. So it's sort of self perpetuating, but absolutely, a full physical is a great idea. You know, and then things like depression and antidepressant medication all have an inhibiting effect on desire for women and men. Yes, women and men. And so, you know, that's another argument

John Dehlin [00:58:22] to get psychologically healthy. Right?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:58:25] That's right. And yeah. So and you know, we, that could be another podcast talking about on depending depression and antidepressants and all of that. But I think that there are antidepressant medications, if you need them, that have less of an inhibiting effect on your libido. I think one of the things that Laura Brotherson, she's an LDS author who wrote the book and they were not ashamed. And this is a book that is not published by Deseret Book, but sold in Deseret Book. And so it has certain stamp of approval. She talks about the, what she calls self learning and what she's talking about is masturbation. What she's saying for women is if you don't know your body and you don't know where your clitoris is and you don't know your own capacity for arousal and if exploring that in the presence of your spouse makes you too anxious, there is legitimacy in her mind to making that exploration on your own and then bringing that information into the marriage. And in the similar vein as for what I've said is its legitimacy is in its intent. It's not about dividing and separating from the marriage. It's about knowing yourself enough to be able to communicate who you are and to know who you are. And it's just something that boys come by naturally because they can't help but find their penis when they're putting right can't help it. But for girls, it's much more hidden and so they don't come to know their bodies. In my dissertation research, the women who actually transitioned most easily into sexuality and marriage had masturbated and had explored their bodies. Now they felt bad about it and they repented and all that, but they still had Some information about their own capacity for arousal. That was very helpful. Right? They knew they could achieve orgasm. They knew what it was that would help them get there, and they could use that information as a more full participant in the marriage. When women are very, very passive in relation to their own eroticism, it certainly makes it harder, I mean, if not impossible, for their male partner to know what it is that they're needing. And so it's. And then when you feel like, I don't even know this part of myself and now I'm supposed to be having an orgasm, so he feels good, I mean, forget it. Just not going to happen.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:00:53] How do you talk to people about these ideas that they get about masturbation? That it's selfish, that I shouldn't have to depend on myself, that if in a true marriage I should be able to depend on my partner to elicit

John Dehlin [01:01:04] or it's dirty or it's dirty or inappropriate or perverted?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:01:10] Well, certainly some people, it's just off the table and they aren't willing to try it. And what I would say is that for people who just feel too uncomfortable with it, then I've said, then really what I think you want to do is see if you can do that exploration with your husband present, and if you can manage your anxiety with him being present, then I would encourage you to see if you can explore together and manage your sense of self, each of you, respectively, so that he's not feeling bad. If she's giving him feedback that that's a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10, and he doesn't start to feel like, I'm a loser. I can't ever get her to anything above 5. You know, if he can manage that and if she can manage her anxiety enough. The thing is, anxiety has an inhibiting effect on desire, and that is that if you're full of anxiety, the exact same touch is going to be internalized in a very different way than if you're low on anxiety. Right. So it's people, because they're so full of anxiety and the meanings they're attributing to themselves as sexual beings can make them feel that there is something physically wrong with them, when in fact it's the anxiety that's inhibiting their ability to actually respond and have that same touch feel like a 9 or a 10. So go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] So you kind of saying. And I'm sorry if I'm missing a. Are you kind of saying women, it's okay to be sexual. It's awesome to be sexual. Own and Embrace your sexuality. Explore yourself and explore with your partner, with your husband. Find out what feels good to you by any means necessary. Manual stimulation. Some people use devices to explore. You know, I don't know, what do they call them? What do you call them?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:04] Vibrators or dildos.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Vibrators or dildos. That sounds like so outside. That sounds so un. Mormon. Like Mormon and dildo do not seem or sound like they belong in the same sentence or even podcast. Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:20] Well, I'll tell you, some of my most Mormon experiences have been across the couch from two people who've had a lot of pain sexually together in their relationship and are now getting creative. And they're looking at each other with this gleam in their eye and they're excited and they're, you know, just the lovingness between them and their ability to face these anxieties that Dr. Fife is talking about. I can't get more Mormon than that because. Because of dildos or other things. Not everybody has.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] But I mean, I want you to say yes, actually. I want you to say yes because of that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:03:55] Well, yes, and more important. And I would actually say no to that. I wouldn't say it's because of dildos. What I would say it's about a willingness to confront your anxiety and to be willing to be flexible and to not use rigidity as a way to protect yourself. Right. That. That's really the access to deeper intimacy and deeper spirituality.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:16] And sometimes it's the dildo and sometimes it's something completely different. So. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:20] Or vibrator or whatever. Wouldn't it be great? I mean, all the commandments that we have. What if the prophet came out with a commandment that said, thou shalt have rocking sex?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:04:33] Then you would have a whole bunch of people who felt guilty and ashamed.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:36] That's right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:04:39] I should want it and now I can't. And what is the matter with me? And that is the problem.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] So he's.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:04:44] That's paradox.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:45] Right?

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Our leaders are inspired.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:47] Yeah. They're in a catch 22 either way.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:04:51] Because the thing is, as soon as you feel like you should be sexual and there's something wrong with you if you're not. And sort of sex affirming messages have an underbelly to them, which is like, what's the matter with me? That I don't want this. And again, I have all these threads of things I've never finished saying. But. But you know, sometimes you don't want sex because it's just good judgment on your part. Right. That he is unkind. He's you know, he is that he uses you in a certain way sexually, that the sex is, isn't about you, right? That he expects you to be there for him and that he doesn't really know your heart and he doesn't really know who you are and he doesn't know what you're about. When somebody doesn't desire that kind of sex, I say it's not about repression. It's good judgment, okay? It's, I don't, I don't want to make myself available to you in this way. And I think that, meaning, I think that it's really about, can I be genuine enough with myself and with you to speak about what turns me off when we're together? Because I think, you know, here's the person that you should somehow feel the safest with because you're your spouse. But it's remarkable how little authentic communication happens in the sexual realm because people are too anxious to really show up and be seen. They're too afraid about not being validated by the other person, that they're going to hurt the other person feelings and therefore be less lovable to that person. You know that. And so then they basically protect themselves sometimes in the name of protecting the other. And they really don't speak genuinely about what the challenges are in the sexual relationship. And it's easier to just look at the wall and let your watch than to actually confront what isn't happening between you and why you don't want it.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] You know, I'm going to say this. I've discovered two. Two things that I think are the most evil things in human psychological health and relationships. One is shame, and the other is not talking about hard stuff. And what I hear you saying is talk about it, talk about it, talk about it. Talk about masturbation, talk about pornography, talk about your desires, talk about what works. Talks about what doesn't work, talk about it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:07:10] Yes, and what I would still say, though, John, is just like, I wouldn't say it's just about dildos. I wouldn't say it's just about talking about it. Because, yes, I agree with what you're saying. But what I would say is sometimes people talk about things in really toxic ways. And it's not about really, I want to know you and I want to be known by you. It's, I want to control you, I want to demean you, or I want to make you feel bad about what you want or don't want. And so you want to really look at

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:07:38] sometimes that demeaning you Is not so much that that's really where. I mean, it's not like most people are so malicious that that's what they want, but it's that I need to feel better than you.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:07:48] Exactly. That's how I'm going to manage. That you don't want me or that you want more sex than I feel able to give. Is I want to somehow make you less than me. And so talk about it. Yes, but the qualification is it's really more about can I basically be decent while I talk about this? Can I hold my sense of self enough to really let myself know your heart and let my own heart be known to you, rather than the more convoluted things that we often do in the name of being known?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:08:19] So let's jump into. With that being said, can we jump into fantasy? Because this is something I get a lot of pushback on, is allowing for, first of all, you know, is fantasy, normal is fantasy. What is fantasy? What's appropriate fantasy, what's inappropriate fantasy? And should we be talking about these things with one another?

Sexual Fantasy and Healthy Imagination

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:08:40] Why do you guys always have to go to all the hard stuff? Like, I'm just teasing, but okay,

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:08:48] I know I'm putting you on the spot.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:08:52] Well, I mean, what would I say about fantasy? I think that fantasy, first of all, I think there's some people who don't need or use fantasy very much. And then I think there's a segment of people who use it a lot and as a way of, I think, in some ways creating more mystery or uncertainty. So if you can kind of, in your mind's eye, create context for your being together, which is more. What's the word? I can't think of the word. But basically, if you can make your being together somehow be more illicit or somehow not acceptable, then it can become more exciting. And who knows why the perverse drives desire so much, but it often does. And you can play with those ideas and you can create that sort of uncertainty and excitement even while you're right there with your spouse and even telling them about the context that you're imagining. Right. So I think that for whatever reason, you know, I think the forbidden often drives desire. And when we can bring the forbidden into our fantasies and into our communications as a couple in a playful way, it can be a really fun way to make things more exciting or, you know, just to introduce some novelty that often drives desire. Also, I think that in the same vein that I probably is the theme I always talk about, it's really about the way that fantasy is Used. You know, I think that human beings use each other. The more immature they are, the more they will use one another to manage their own sense of self, their own anxieties. And the more loving we become, the more we can really enter into what Martin Buber called an I thou relationship, which is, I really respect you as an equal human being that owes me nothing and yet that I love and feel great, you know, appreciation for you sharing yourself with me. And when you are sharing your erotic mind in that way, in that kind of level of respect and friendship, it's really then an exercise of letting yourself be known and letting someone sort of step into your experience. And it can be deeply bonding. I would also say I've worked with couples in which one is using fantasy. And one couple in particular, he was looking at pornography all the time. He wasn't letting his wife know this. And then he was basically asking her to behave in ways that felt degrading to her. And they were degrading in the sense that it wasn't about her. This was about him saying, you kind of owe me this. And his anger and his aggression was sort of was being communicated to her through their sexuality. And he was using her, you know, and they were married and all that and in the temple and all that. But it was really, it was really about his immaturity and the cruelty that he was willing to express towards her. So.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:11:54] Well, again, it wasn't relational. He wasn't involving her. He wasn't involving her in that original. Like this is something I either struggle with or this is something I think about or. And so there's two things I want to talk about. One is different types of fantasies because we can talk about the type of fantasy where, you know, I tell my husband, oh, I'm fantasizing about us on a beach or when we go to Hawaii or, you know, so that's kind of fantasy just within the couple. Then there's other types of fantasies that it can include like a Hollywood star or somebody that we're attracted to. So those can start feeling maybe more inappropriate to people. And then there's fantasies that actually I think come out of issues such as sexual abuse. I mean, I remember working, for instance with, and I've worked with several women actually, who in order to become aroused, they actually need to be fantasized. Fantasizing about themselves in a non healthy place. You know, like they're getting raped or they're being held down or they're being forced to do something and that's actually arousing and so then you get to these kinds of fantasies that actually worry people. You know, like, what's wrong with me that I have to, you know, think about these things in order to become aroused. And so fantasy in of itself is highly complex and, you know, can range in a lot of different things. And there may be fantasies that we maybe don't necessarily need to incorporate in our sexual play, but that I think there's some value in at least letting each other know that we struggle with those thoughts or those things. What do you have to say?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:13:26] Yeah, called. It was written by, hang on, think of it. Wendy Maltz. And I think the book is called Passionate Thoughts. And it was basically her research on women's sexual fantasies. And basically what I think she shows is that this is maybe more my interpretation than hers. But the more traumatic a person's past was, the more division there would be. She doesn't write about it in this way, but the more division there is. There was more of a split between love and desire, right? So that sexuality is really split off from loving relationships. The more that people were raised in such a way that they felt that love and desire could coexist. And I don't know if I have enough time to talk about that. But then they had more fantasies which involved the person they're beloved. There were fantasies about the two of them being together in perhaps more exciting ways. And one of the things that she and others talk about is that fantasy can be helpful, just like dream interpretation, in understanding what is it that psychologically you're trying to resolve or undo? What is it that you're trying to heal or make better or what does it tell you about yourself? Right? And that it can tell you about some of your deepest wounds. And one theorist, sorry, I can't remember, but he's name right now. It'll come to me in a minute, actually.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:15:01] I think you're doing great with remembering names.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:15:04] Somebody who lives East Coast. But she talks about that fantasy and sexual fantasy is really about trying to avenge these wrongdoings. It's a way of trying to get on top of it and conquer it. Because even the person who, in her way of thinking, the person who has the rape fantasy in the fantasy itself, she actually feels powerful, you know, and that she can feel like she's attracting this person. And that oftentimes the way that the meaning is actually playing out in the fantasy, they're holding more power in the fantasy than maybe first meets. You know, the initial read of it and you know, like I worked with one person who in her family growing up, she felt a lot of pressure to be high achieving and to manage the vulnerability in her parents through high levels of achievement and non expression of vulnerability. And so, you know, she has struggled with sexuality. And the thing is. And she shut down any fantasy or anything like that because she felt like it was disloyal. And I asked her to think about, you know, what kinds of ideas do turn you on, what kind of things would make you feel desire. And I may have talked about this in the initial podcast with you, but she basically felt embarrassed that the kind of fantasies that turned her on was that she was a waitress, which is very, very different from her actual occupation in terms of socioeconomic level. She's a waitress. And that all of these men were desiring her and knocking over tables to get to her. And you know, but the thing is it, it really fit with her history because first of all, she was in not successful in the way that her family had put pressure on her. And yet she was highly desirable. And she was so desirable that these people are willing to kind of go against convention and, you know, their own inhibitions to have her or to be with her. And this is really eroticized for her. And she felt ashamed of it. Like, you know, why do I want multiple men to be attacking me in a restaurant?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:17:08] Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:17:09] So. But it's really a way of sort of undoing this message that she got around her desirability and her loveability. So I think

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:17:18] letting go of the shame that we have these thoughts that our thoughts. And I think one thing I tell people a lot of times is remember that your thoughts don't define you. You're not your thoughts. We have all kinds of crazy thoughts all the time. And I think this is also what's hard sometimes for a spouse to hear. Like, you know, well, what, what turns you on? If that turns you on, then how can I ever turn you on? Or.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:17:40] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:17:41] I don't know what you can say to that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:17:43] Yeah, well, and that's, I would say why it can be that it gets so much of it gets inhibited is because it's not that we can't communicate as people often say, and we have a communication problem. It's really that people have a hard time tolerating the message. You know, it's really that I don't really want to know you because it's stressing me out and I don't know if I can be what you say you want. And so it's really.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:18:08] And this all gets kind of couched into righteousness within Mormon couples. I think that you're not.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:18:13] It can be solved that way. Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:18:15] You're not righteous enough for me. Or that this is not the type of marriage I want to be in if you're going to have these types of thoughts. And I think that's when we really run into some problems as far as how Mormonism applies to all this.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:18:28] Well, what I would say is that someone abusing their Mormon faith in that moment, because what they're doing is they're making a claim on righteousness that they really have no business. Do they really know how God feels about that? And they're just using it as a way to basically put themselves back together and reduce their anxiety is by shaming. The genuine expression of someone about, you know, this is for some reason what is turning me on at this point.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:18:56] But this very easily, especially for men, gets tied into pornography. And, you know, why would you want to look at something like that? I mean, it just very much starts down that path of I'm with somebody who is unrighteous and they have a problem.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:19:12] Well, and they may be with someone who's unrighteous and there may be a problem. But I think the question is how much are people using that as a way to get themselves above the other person so they feel less hurt? And how much is about really trying to understand the problem, to understand what's happening and why it's happening, and can they calm themselves enough to really know it?

John Dehlin [01:19:34] Can I just jump in and do a quick monologue?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:19:37] Please do, because I'm not sure I want to make sure I'm asking everything I need to be asking about this. I think this is really important.

John Dehlin [01:19:43] Well, I just. It is very important. And I just want to say kind of a bad path and a good path. There's this bad path where someone has a thought that they don't want to have that they feel shamed or bad about, and so they do whatever they can to get rid of that thought or to manage it. They feel worse and worse about themselves, generate more anxiety, and. And they throw themselves into a tailspin of unhealthy psychological behavior, whether it's depression or compulsive porn use or whatever it is, where the shame spiral of feeling guilty about a thought and then trying to manage that thought actually generates the frequency and the intensity of the undesirable thought, leading to terribly unhealthy behaviors in whatever way it manifests. And we talked about this before, but I don't think we can talk about it. Enough. And I'm comfortable talking a little bit in this area because this is my area of research. And what we know from psychological research is that the worst thing you can do to control or manage a thought is to feel like it's a terrible thought. To feel like you can't have the thought to. To try and fight it or push it away in any way. All you do is make that thought get worse. And that's why I sometimes wish the brethren would stop talking about pornography. Because by first of all introducing pornography, you're making people think about it. And then by telling them to not think about it, they're going to think about it more. But let's flip and talk about what is decent, what's. What's a healthier approach to having thoughts that you don't want or to dealing with thoughts that come is what we're learning called acceptance. You just say, huh, I have that thought. It's not a big deal. It's just a thought and thought. You're welcome to stay with me if you want. I'm not going to stigmatize you. I'm not going to feel bad about that thought if I have fantasies about X, Y or Z. That's just what my brain does, and that's just what turns me on. Thoughts aren't real. They're not necessarily powerful unless we empower them. They're not something that I need to repent for. And the less import and severity and gravity that we give a thought, the better chance we have at that thought not taking us over. So if a spouse is upset with thoughts or behaviors that another spouse is having, the best thing they can do is say, don't worry about a sweetie, it's okay. I love you. It's just a thought. You're a good person, you know, don't feel shame. Don't feel stigma. What do you want your life to be about? How can we engage each other in a healthy way? Let's kind of just kind of move in that direction. If that thought follows us or if that behavior follows us, I'm not going to shame you. Let's just see if we can carve out a life that's healthy. And maybe those things will kind of become less intense and less severe over time. They'll have less of a grip on you. They may show up. A thought may show up. A behavior may show up occasionally. But if we're moving in a loving, edifying direction together, then these thoughts and behaviors are just going to kind of sometimes melt away instead of intensify now you guys can tell me if you think I'm wrong.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:23:10] Well, I will say that I completely agree with that. My only concern that I guess I want is the to speak about is that a lot of times I feel like the spouse is now also in a catch 22. Because sometimes these thoughts or fantasies, once they're shared, are painful or are hurtful to the person. Like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize that. Again, we have this fantasy that we should only think of each other, that I should be your whole world, that our sexuality should only be about you and I. And so we have these kind of messages that we've been brought up with and that are very much part of our Mormonism as well. And now all of a sudden it feels threatening to have this other entity or this other thought kind of competing with me. And so it's kind of like the acceptance has to go both ways. So the acceptance from the spouse, but then also the acceptance from the other spouse that that might take time, that there may be a few tears shed, that there may be some, you know, anxiety around that and that that's okay too.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:24:07] Yeah. Because one thought I would say is, you know, it's of kind great when you can meet your own thoughts with acceptance. Sometimes we want our spouse to meet them with acceptance because we can't. You see what I mean? Because we're saying, you know, can you just tell me, hey sweetie, it's okay because that will help me feel better about this. That's really asking a lot of the other persons, Natasha, saying around, well, what does this all mean about me and how you feel about me and what am I to you and to be supportive. I'm not saying that's impossible. It just requires a very strong sense of, of self in the spouse to be able to be that regulated around information that can feel threatening. I think the other thing I would. But I totally agree with what you're saying, John. And I think that you're right, you know, if you say don't eat the brownies, don't eat the brownies. You know, I'm such a bad person if I even think about eating brownies. Those are the people that are much more inclined to be compulsive eaters because there's so much shame, self contempt around food. And I think that very much happens around pornography. I mean, I'm sure you're both aware of the data that was published by a MIT researcher, I think in Newsweek around that the amount of online adult entertainment that was purchased was highest in Utah and then the Bible Belt was the region that was second to Utah in these areas where there's at least overt disapproval of pornography use and there's an actual increase in the usage. And I think a piece that I've wanted to talk about throughout the podcast, but I keep forgetting to, is just around shame and desire in the church in general, I think with women, but I think it's there with men too. Shame around sexuality certainly still exists. And I think it, as you're saying, John, can really actually create a division within ourselves. You know, that sexuality doesn't really get integrated into one sense of self in a healthy way. And then we're more vulnerable to these kind of splits against our own value system where we're actually engaging in behaviors that make us feel ashamed and horrible and yet we can feel some compulsivity around it. So, and I think you're right that the shame really drives it. I think acceptance, acceptance is certainly a piece of it. And I think the other piece that I would add to that is understanding, you know what, just put it outside of the sexual realm for a minute with a compulsive eater. It's like what is the eating managing for me sometimes it's helping me shove away feelings, making me shove down anger that makes me fearful. I'm afraid of my own anger, that if I can make my feelings go away, then I can feel more regulated inside myself. And so I'm using fear food to do that and just coming to sort of more self compassion around what it is you're trying to solve through the thoughts or the fantasy or the pornography use. And is there a way to be in a healthier relationship with yourself so that you don't need that behavior to manage something that has negative ramifications in your life, that you can find another way to manage it?

Shame, the Natural Man, and Religious Messaging

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:27:16] Yeah. So you're talking about education. And one thing that I'd like to bring into this as well is these kind of religious concepts of the natural man and desire. And you know, that we're going to want things that we shouldn't want. So how does that all tie into this from, you know, these are messages that I hear at church almost on a weekly basis.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:27:36] Right. So. Well, I would say that that's all. I agree with all that. I think that natural man and natural woman, so to speak, is that we can be pretty self centered people that are willing to use other people to feel okay about ourselves in many, many, many ways, including, you know, I want you to be happy is what we often Say women often say that I just a pleaser, I want everyone to be happy. But the real text is I want everyone to be happy with me. Like it's really about I need everybody else to feel good about me so I can feel good about me. That's a part of our what I would call perhaps natural but it's not loving behavior. And so I agree that there is a part of us that will move towards self service at our own expense and others expense. And I think that is a part of us that we want to challenge and grow out of. But I don't think for a minute and I don't think in our theology it's there either that sexuality is anti spiritual. And I think as I talked about in the podcast with you, I really believe our theology embraces the body, embraces our passion and our sexuality as fundamental to our spiritual development. And I fully agree with that. So again I would say we can use our sexuality in destructive ways and we can use it in very loving and loving and growth promoting ways. And it's natural. Man's not about sexuality. Natural man is around self protection, fear and self service.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:29:05] I think that's the best reframe I've ever heard.

John Dehlin [01:29:07] Yeah, that's outstanding. That's outstanding.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:29:09] The natural man and the desires. Because I think so much, and this is not even Mormon I think when you say desire there's an automatic almost either food or sex involvement in that. And so I think that that is such a powerful reframe for people to look at that differently that we are, we do have natural desires as far as sexuality or eating or whatever it is. And those are not inherently bad. But what is maybe something we can work on is how we couch that and the sense of self versus others.

John Dehlin [01:29:38] So sex good, selfishness bad.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:29:42] And I'll say one more thing just on that line. I think desire is given such short shrift in the church. We're so anxious about desire and our whole discourse courses around what we should be and I think should drives this shame. As you talk about John and anxiety and depression and feelings of being insufficient. Where desire is in my opinion, what is self development in action, it's really through desiring that we, it's our creativity and our development and our sort of becoming that happens through desire. And I think, you know, think we're so afraid of desire because we're afraid if we ask what we really want that what all we're going to want is to have sex all day and to eat, you know, chocolate and sit on the Couch rather than, you know, do I really desire to become a better, more whole person? Do I desire to become a more loving human being? If you don't really want it, you're not going to become it anyway. And I don't care how many people tell you you should be, that it's really about what you want, want. And I think focusing on what we want helps us to become more whole people and not so reactive and fear based, but more loving and agentic. So I think desire is not only not bad, I think it's a very, very good thing.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:31:00] Amen. Well, John, what are you thinking?

John Dehlin [01:31:06] I'm thinking this is really good stuff.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:31:11] I agree.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:31:11] It was a lot of fun talking to you guys.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:31:14] I'm pretty much probably coming to an end to my questions. Is there anything else, John, that you feel you want to address?

John Dehlin [01:31:21] Well, I want to come back to talk about it just for a second. And I think we've covered so many good things and I just have this faith and it's not going to work for everybody, but I just have this faith through experience that so many hard things come from people not having the conversation. And it's hard to have the conversation, it's awkward, it's risky. You may not be loved, you may be rejected, it may be catastrophic. But I just want to lay this idea out and that's that when you choose the path to not talk about something, what you do often is you choose this path of being a split person, of doing things in private, of feeling more shame, of feeling more guilt. That seems to be something that increases the anxiety, increases the sadness, increases the distance. And it seems like it so often leads to some type of explosion where the behavior you're engaged in secretly is ultimately discovered and the other person feels angry and doesn't trust you, or you build up so much resentment and bitterness inside that it explodes later in really healthy ways or drives two people apart. And so what I'm saying is talking about it is risky, but it seems like not talking about it is riskier. And when I say talk about it, I mean masturbation, your own desires, your feelings, your guilt, your shame, your secret desires, whatever.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:33:08] Anyway, Jennifer, I absolutely agree with you, John, I do. And I think that, right, it's really around self protection, why we go silent, but then often at our own peril and the peril of the relationship. And it's really about can I dare to show myself to you more? As flawed and as imperfect as I am, can I trust you and me enough to actually let myself be more known to you. And I fully agree. I mean, I guess, you know, I guess I've bought so much into that idea over my lifetime that maybe I've pulled back from it slightly. But I think that my own health and happiness in my own life and in my own relationship I think is very much based in a willingness to confront things that feel hard and to understand them and to find self acceptance within them. And so I do fully agree with you. I think so often we're afraid that who we are is insufficient or it won't be loved or it won't be okay to talk about. And so therefore I'll just put it away and maybe I'll even be resentful at you spouse because you didn't somehow see it and take care of it without me having to name it. But I'm not going to dare to name it. And I think that's very toxic.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:34:27] Yeah, that almost. Well, if you, if you really love me, you would know, you know, those kind of mind reading skills that we wish our spouses had sometimes. And I think too that, you know, we mentioned the word selfish and I think that that's a word that comes with it a lot of religious connotation and even some shame. My experience working with people is that nobody wakes up in the morning saying, hey, I want to be selfish today. We do act in selfish ways, but I don't think maliciously or intentionally. And I think it really does go back to having just unhealthy coping mechanisms or having anxiety that we don't know how to necessarily deal with. So I just want to throw that out there because I don't want people, I'm sure a lot of people are going to listen to this, including me going, oh, that's something I could work on or that's something. But I want it to be more positive in that way, like that's something I can work on versus oh my gosh, I'm such a big. That person. I can't believe I've been doing this or.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:35:21] Well, right. Because what I would say is there's nothing pathological about all this. What I would say is it's very, very normal. You know, if 99% of the population is, is holding back from letting themselves be more known, can't really say it's pathological. I'd say it's pretty normal.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:35:38] Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:35:38] But I think if we really want to continue to develop ourselves and our relationships, authenticity certainly is the mechanism.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:35:48] And the fabulous part about it going back to a very Mormon thing is there's no end to this. You know, there's that eternal progression that wherever we're at, on the level of authenticity, there's always more that can be broached and explored. And that's kind of exciting, I hope, to people.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:36:05] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:36:06] You know what else? Sex is awesome. So fantastic sex awaits you. What's. What's the downside? What is the downside?

Sexual Incompatibility and Difficult Relationship Choices

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:36:19] Okay, so on that thought, not to be a complete Debbie Downer here, but one thing I was going to talk about earlier, and maybe this is the wrong place to put this, but there's quite a bit of new maybe thought or psychological research going into the fact that there may. Just like there's, you know, when we talk about sexual orientation, that there's heterosexuality and homosexuality, there's some movement towards the orientation of asexuality. So in other words, people who really do not want to be sexual or have a need for sexuality in their life. And if you're. Listen, you know, I don't know what your thoughts are about this, but I could imagine somebody listening to this going, well, I have to be sexual and there's nothing in me that wants to be sexual. Feeling a lot of shame. Any thoughts?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:37:02] I only have one thought on that, and that is that I guess I would need to be convinced on the asexuality piece on one front, which is like, I guess I just really think of us as just inherently sexual beings. It's sort of like saying, you know, I. I'm just not an eater. I don't really. I guess I just sort of see it as sort of inherent to being human, is on some level being a sexual being. That.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:37:24] Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:37:26] I guess I'm willing to be convinced. I. But the other thing I would say is nobody has to be. Be sexual. I would say, you know, you can fully say in your marriage, look, I'm never going to be that for you. And I just want people to be more straight about it. I think what I see is that people often are saying, well, I want to want. I'm just working on it, you know, and they're working on it for 30 years and there's really no actual progress in reality. They really don't want to be known in this way or explore this part of themselves and their guilt or their shame or whatever is kind of making them suggest to their spouse, you know, I'm trying. When in reality they're not really genuinely saying, I'm really uncomfortable and I don't even know this part of myself, but here I am, I'm willing to really explore this with you. So I guess what I would say is that I think it's okay to claim asexuality. So I guess what I would say is one thing is, I think it's actually a cruel position. This is not to drive more guilt and shame, but I do think when someone says, look, I want you to be monogamous with me and I never want to have sex with you, that

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:38:35] is not very sustainable.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:38:37] That's not a very fair position, in my opinion. Okay, But I would say you can certainly make that position. Of course, then the spouse has to make their own decision within that. But I guess what I think is more of a problem is if people are basically pretending that they're in a different position as a way of kind of co opting that other person into their plan, as opposed to saying, I really don't feel sexual, I don't have any desire to ever confront this part of myself. And if you're married to me, you really won't have a sexual relationship with me, not the one that you want. You then have at least let your spouse make a free decision about whether or not they really want to be there anyway. And then they're no victim because they have made a decision to be there and to forsake this.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:39:22] So with the victim part though, however, I see a lot of people in this position and we have many messages within the church that would say, well, you know, endure to the end. Maybe you don't have a right to want those things. Or everybody's dealt with different things and there's lots of people who can't have sex. So why, you know, why do you think that you should be able to have sex? And some people just, this is your burden to bear, you know, kind of thing. And so I see a lot of people really struggling with this thought of, well, then that means I'm just stuck in a sexless marriage and there's nothing I can do about it. And there is a sense of victimhood there.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:39:58] Okay. But what I would say to them is that really is their decision and their integrity is really what they have to decide. If they really feel that that's where God wants them to be, and they really believe that, well, we do lots of hard things, and then they need to make that decision, not in the position of being a victim, but that you're making a decision in the face of choices that you wish weren't your only choices. Right, but that's a very different move than saying, well, I'm making it because I have to. And feeling resentful and victimized. Right. Because you don't have to make the decision you can leave the marriage. You can. There are other options available to you. You just aren't getting the option that you want, which is to have a sexual relationship with this person who is your spouse. So if you don't believe that or you don't think that God would ask you to be in a marriage that is so devoid of passion and sexuality and you feel that you can give yourself permission to choose something else with integrity, I would say then that that's a legitimate choice. Also to say, I can't choose a marriage where there will be, you know, sex and choose it happily and therefore, you know, I need to make a different decision. If you can't, if you can't confront this part of yourself or engage this part of our relationship, I don't know that I can be here. And I guess I would say I'm not here to say which is the right decision for someone. But I would say I think both are legitimate choices to be explored.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:41:27] I think that's the important part, is the allowing for the legitimacy of either choice, that either choice can be explored and that either choice could be a healthy choice or an unhealthy choice.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:41:40] Right. Because I think we sometimes confuse coddling people's anxieties with love. And I'm not. I'm going to sort of say the asexuality piece. I'm going to put that question aside for a minute and say, if someone's saying, I'm not going to. I can't have sex with you because I feel too much anxiety that oftentimes men in the church feel like, if I'm really a loving person, then I will put these desires aside and I will take care of her and I will be the good husband and I will manage her vulnerabilities at my own expense. And I think marriage always has sacrifice in it, meaning good marriages, sacrifice and good family sacrifice is fundamental. But in my opinion, sacrifice, when it's worthy, elevates everyone in the group. It's not throwing oneself under the bus for other people to not have to confront themselves. And I think a lot of us.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:42:36] I love that. Very good. John, anything you want to add to this?

John Dehlin [01:42:42] I mean, it's. People have to make those decisions. But if a couple gets to the point where they just realize that they're sexually incompatible sometimes, what are the options? What are the fair, reasonable, moral, ethical options?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:43:02] Well, I guess I would say there are a lot of things that people have to decide within their own framework of what they believe.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:43:13] This is not a one answer fits all by any means.

Guest [01:43:16] Yeah.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:43:16] It's just sort of how much like, I'm working with one couple where he said, I really. If this can't be changed, I really don't think that I can stay. I know I'm devoted to my child. I will be here for him. But I may consider either an open marriage if my spouse can tolerate it, or I will leave the marriage but still live close by so I can be an involved parent. But I. I know that I can't choose to go on like this if something doesn't shift.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] Have you known couples that have made an open marriage work for even a certain part of time, certain period of time?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:43:54] I have a couple that did that mainly because he was a homosexual, and they both ended up having a lover on the side and still raised their children, and they're doing that to this day. And they're Mormon.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:44:08] Wow, that's impressive. I don't know if I.

John Dehlin [01:44:11] Impressive?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:44:12] Well, no, honestly, it is impressive. I genuinely mean that because I feel like it's a way of saying we have a difference, that we don't know how to reconcile, and yet we really want to give the children a stable home life because the kids are often the ones who really suffer when the parents split. And so, I mean, I don't know any details of that situation, but honestly, it does sound like impressive management of them.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:44:36] I am very impressed with them. They are very, very, very wonderful to each other and have really explored so many options, and they're very devoted to their children, and the Mormon construct does not offer any viable options for them.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:44:52] Right. I guess what I would say is that I think life is just full of hard choices sometimes, and that's really the hard work of life, is making those hard choices. And sometimes they're just not the choices we want. But part of our development is in choosing. And then what we often do is we choose, but then we want to make other people responsible for it so we can resent them when we're not sure that we made the right choice. I think that's more typical than actually freely choosing hard things.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Hmm, Very interesting that. That is a whole other podcast, isn't it? Okay, but can I come back to Sex can be Fabulous? Is it okay?

Guest [01:45:38] Yes.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:45:39] Let's end on that note, please. That's why I didn't want to be a Debbie Downer. I think that for the most part, I. I think sex absolutely can and should be fabulous. And we should embrace this aspect that we've been given and Jennifer, take it away.

Success Stories and Practical Takeaways

John Dehlin [01:45:55] Let's end by each of you telling us in one minute each, a couple that you saw how terrible it was and what they got to through exploring these methods. So, Natasha, you go first, then Jennifer, so that we can end with Jennifer, because she's our star.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:46:10] Yeah, I would say. Well, I've had several, but one in particular came to me. You know, she's like the Relief Society president young couple and, you know, loves having children. And definitely there was a time when we did the timeline, the sexual timeline, that the problem started when she started having children. And I think there was some discomfort with the role of mother and lover. And, you know, there was all of that. And to the point that, you know, she was sharing with me some things that she. She found it hard to share with her husband. So, in other words, I'm no longer attracted to you, or something has shifted. I love you. So she was having a very hard time knowing how to share those things with him. And those can be very difficult things to share with a spouse. So we challenged, of course, her thought process about sexuality. We explored her education and past history with sexuality and kind of just couched some realistic expectations. And then in the meantime, I do a lot of work kind of coming up with temporary solutions. In other words, you know, I don't want you to feel like you have to have sex for him. That's not going to work. But at the same time, it's not sustainable in a marriage to just expect him to not have sex at all either. So what are some creative ways that we can do this? They found several. They definitely incorporated masturbation both outside of the. Their, you know, in proximity and within their proximity. We definitely talked a lot about the lovey quickie and what that entails. So in other words, if you are going to let him inside of you, can you do that? Can you offer that as a gift and find pleasure in the holding him and caressing him and, you know, telling him nice things about him versus the. I'm really grumpy. I'm doing this right now for you. So basically, we really tried to put things in her. Her control as to what she was willing to offer. But whatever she was going to offer, she was going to do so in a healthy and positive and edifying way for him. So that worked out really well for them. And as they kind of went through that temporary thing, I put no pressure for her to orgasm, no pressure for her to want sex, but in the Process. We were excited exploring her sexuality. Her relationship with her mother came up a lot as far as how she felt her mother viewed her own sexuality, her thoughts of becoming a woman. She very much still saw herself as a girl. And when I asked her to explore what she thought woman meant, she came up with a lot of negative perceptions about being old and matronly. And so, you know, how do you. So we did a lot of exploration and slowly and surely her sexuality kind of started blooming again and in a very more mature and different way. And off they went, and I don't see them anymore. I'm hoping things continue to.

John Dehlin [01:49:10] And they rode off into the sexual sunset. All right, all right. Bring us home. Bring us home, Jennifer.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:49:20] Okay, I'm just trying to think which one to tell you about. I think, well, I'll just. And I want to preserve confidentiality too. So just a couple I was working with where it really had become a sexless marriage and a lot of resentment between the two of them. And I would say, you know, she had really shut sexuality down as both a punishment to him for the anger she had at him as well as this chronic sense that she'd always had. And there was plenty of evidence for it and her life that women were there to service men and that, you know, basically she had sort of become what I would call anti dependent because dependency had screwed her over so much in her life with her family of origin and then in the dating relationships that she had chosen sort of out of that history. And so in the relationship with him, she was very self sufficient and, and very walled off and in some ways uncomfortable, but in other ways very comfortable with that. You know, the first thing I did was really work on the marriage itself, not the sexuality, because there was so much problematic that was happening between them. And she had some good reasons for feeling resentful. And he. I would say they both got more able to regulate themselves and their feelings and to not try and control one another or wall off from each other as a way of managing those feelings and were more able to calm themselves and to be more present with each other and more real and to start having more challenging conversations and to not have one or the other person flee. And really what happened is their friendship really has blossomed. It's quite satisfying to see it actually from where they started. The other thing is that then they started working on their sexual relationship and their intimate relationship. And for her, she could receive touch without feeling too anxious, but she couldn't give touch. And she had some trauma in her Past as well. That was very much triggered. And so this is just one brief example, but she. I remember her saying to me in an individual session, I cannot touch him because I feel like as soon as I touch him, it's. I'm servicing him. That I am. That I am basically there for him as an object, but not myself any longer. And so really, our work was around can she. You know, there was so much that she respected about him and loved about him, and yet it never really came through her physical communication because she would quickly go into this other frame of, like, that she's now lost her sense of self and she's there for him. And so we just did some work around her just holding her love for him and having her physical touch be an expression of those feelings. And really, I don't know how to say it, but not letting it get turned in her mind into servicing. And so she practiced it in her head for a long time, actually. And then one day she was there lying next to him. He was touching her. And she wanted to do this, but she said it was like being at the doctor and about to get a shot. Like, my anxiety was so high, and yet I really wanted to give myself and him this an expression of me towards him physically. That's really genuinely an expression of. Of me and my love for him. And so she did it. She reached out and she started to touch his face. And she was looking into his eyes. And it was so, she said she burst into tears because it wasn't just reconnecting with him. It was reconnecting with herself in a way that she had shut down so long ago to protect herself. And here she felt more whole and connected to herself and him. And they both cried through this experience. It was really touching when they told me about it. And so they progressed from there. They had gone, at this point, years without sex. Okay. But now there was a lot more happening in positive directions between them. And they came to an anniversary. She said he had no expectation of it. He really kind of used to put pressure on her and all that. And he wasn't doing that. And she just genuinely wanted to be there with him sexually on their anniversary. And she said it was a beautiful experience for them to be together in this way and very, very meaningful for them. And so that just happened a few weeks ago. But it's not just that they're starting to have sex now. It's that their relationship has become much stronger entity, and there's so much more friendship and authenticity between them and even their kids can feel it. Their kids interact with them differently. So that's my story. So, yeah, I think that, you know, here's my plug for sexuality. I think sex is one of our greatest gifts. And I think, you know, when you have a passionate marriage and what I would say is that story I told, that's really not just about sex. It's about really creating the basis of a passionate marriage, of having something very meaningful. Yeah. That happens between you sexually and emotionally. I think when you start to have that, that's really heaven on earth. Like, I mean, if that's what the celestial kingdom is, probably we'd have a lot more motivated people to get out to priesthood meeting. But. But I think that, you know, that's heaven on earth and in my opinion is that kind of communion and that kind of transcendence and that kind of meaning that can be created between two people and connection.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:55:14] Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:55:15] So I think. Great mechanism. Yes. For our growth.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:55:19] So that's wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] Sweet.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:55:22] Well, Dr. Fife, I. You're just wonderful to come and spend this time with us. We have so much respect for you. I would encourage anybody anywhere near Salt Lake City to attend your. What I'm sure are going to be wonderful continuations of these types of thoughts. And, you know, maybe you'll have more types of exercises and things that you can give to couples and to women. I think you're going to have one evening for women and then the day

John Dehlin [01:55:48] workshop for couples, September 23rd and 24th. Check out Mormon Stories for a link to the place where you can sign up.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:55:58] Yes.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:55:59] And thanks to the two of you to talk to me about one of my favorite subjects.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] And Natasha, you're fabulous in your own right. Mormon Therapist. What is it the Mormon Therapist?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:56:09] Yeah. If you want to go check out my blog, it's the Mormon Therapist. So just Google that and you'll find me.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] Blogspot or not.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:56:16] Yep.blogspot.com okay.

Closing Remarks and Resources

John Dehlin [01:56:17] All right. All right. And there's Dr. Jennifer.blogspot.com that's.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:56:23] That's right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:56:24] And John, thanks for joining us as the token mail today and letting us tease you.

John Dehlin [01:56:29] My pleasure.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:56:32] All right, we'll talk to you all later.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] Thanks, ladies.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:56:34] Thanks so much.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:56:35] Okay, bye.

John Dehlin [01:56:37] Bye. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was j generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Guest [01:56:53] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though hard to you this journey may appear Great shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo fresh courage take Our God will ever as first sake soon we'll have tale it tell oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. Sa. We die before our journey is through Happy day All is well we then are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell. But if our lives are spared again to see the sa the rest obtain or how we'll make this chorus well oh, all is well I is well all is well

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [02:00:46] all is well

Guest [02:00:49] all

John Dehlin [02:00:50] is well

Guest [02:00:53] oh, is well. Way.

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