Introduction and Guest Welcomes

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org. hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. I'm back in the podcasting saddle now that my dissertation is successfully defended and my internship is all set. And I'm excited to have with us today several wonderful ladies who are all representing ordained women. We've interviewed ladies from the Ordain Women) movement in the past, but it's sort of been a year since Ordain Women) was launched and there's another event coming up. And because here at Mormon Stories, we're staunch allies of women and of Mormon feminists, we are so thrilled to have them back. We can't get enough of Mormon feminists on Mormon Stories Podcast. So with that, I believe that everyone here is a first time guest on Mormon Stories. But you guys can correct me. I'm going to start by introducing Nadine Hanson. She deserves much reverence and awe. She is an attorney, I believe she's an attorney that deals with polygamy in Southern Utah. Is that right, Nadine?

Nadine Hansen [00:01:43] Well, yeah, kind of. The way I got involved in dealing with polygamous issues is that I'm a court appointed guardian ad litem, which means that I represent children in, in various kinds of situations, but specifically in custody disputes. And I've had a couple of cases in which FLDS children were involved.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Got it. Well, that's really cool. It says here that you live in Cedar City. I added that you are the mother of Laura Compton, which is always important to mention

Nadine Hansen [00:02:20] because one of my claims to fame is being the mother in law of Todd Compton and the mother of Laura Compton, because they're both really awesome people.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Well, since this is a feminist oriented episode, I'm certainly not going to introduce you as the mother in law to Todd Compton. I don't think that's going to go over well.

Nadine Hansen [00:02:41] Well, Todd is a wonderful feminist also, so I'm happy to claim him.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] Okay. All right. Okay. Hi, Todd.

Katie Hyde [00:02:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] In addition, Nadine has three wonderful other children besides Laura. She's a grandma. She is a feminist activist, and I asked her to allow me to include the fact that in 1980 she published a Dialogue, an article arguing for priesthood for women within Mormonism. So, Nadine, you're sort of a grandmother of Mormon feminism, if you don't mind me saying so. So welcome to Mormon Stories.

Nadine Hansen [00:03:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Was that a long enough introduction?

Nadine Hansen [00:03:22] I think that was plenty, yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Okay. In addition, we have Katie Hyde. Katie is a university student at the U of U. Right, Katie?

Katie Hyde [00:03:30] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] And she actually recently embraced her Mormon feminism. So she's a recent convert, as we joked about. She attended the Ordain Women) event in October, and she's happy to be with us. So we're happy to have you, Katie.

Katie Hyde [00:03:48] Thank you very much, John.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Kimberly Brinkerhoff is a publicist. She lives in North Carolina. She has three children and two stepchildren. So she lives in a Brady Bunch model of a family. She handles public relations for ordained women and also for the Wear Pants to Church Day event. And she's generally awesome. So, Kimberly, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:04:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Oh, happy to have you.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:04:15] I really wanted to clap when you mentioned your dissertation thing, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Oh, thank you. I'll clap, too.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:04:21] Yay.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:04:23] Oh, good. I'm glad you got claps.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Finally, we have the last but not least, the amazing Deborah Jensen. Deborah Jensen is a professor at Utah State University Goaggies in communications. She works with the Special Olympics. She leads a Girl Scout troop in Ogden, and she is a soccer mom. So you could be a working mom and a soccer mom at the same time, apparently.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:04:47] Totally true.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:04:48] Who knew?

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Well, welcome to Mormon Stories. Deborah, it's so great to have you on.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:04:53] Thank you.

The April 2014 Ordain Women) Action Plan

John Dehlin [00:04:54] All right, so on April 5th at 4pm a bunch of Mormon feminists and allies will be sort of descending upon City Creek park in Salt Lake City. There'll be a prayer and a mini devotional. And I guess let's just start by having someone describe the event. Who wants to describe it? How about Kimberly?

Nadine Hansen [00:05:17] Hi, Will.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Okay.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:05:18] Yes, this is Kimberly. Well, we're just following the same pattern that we did last time, which, as you said, we meet at City Creek Park. I think it's 110 North State Street. Is that right? Tempera. I should have had the address on me.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Google it.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:05:37] It's just a couple of blocks from Temple Square and we meet there three

Katie Hyde [00:05:40] cornered from the church office building, right?

John Dehlin [00:05:43] Yep.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:05:43] We have a prayer. And last time Katie spoke, I imagine she'll speak again this time. It was just a very brief little introduction to who we are and what we were doing there and what the importance of it was. And then we will just all walk over together in a great big line, stand in front of the tabernacle. If they'll Let us in and ask to be admitted, and then we will meet afterwards as well, whether we get in or not. We are in the process of coming up with a meeting place, which we'll announce on Facebook and on our website, I'm sure, so we can all just chat and sort of have a little debriefing after the fact, depending on what happens.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Okay, perfect. So it sounds a lot like last time. Is there anything different that we should know about?

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:06:33] I don't think so. Now, there is a. I should mention there's a training session on Friday night and. Oh, Deborah, when is that going to be? I think it's at seven.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:06:45] Seven, yes.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:06:46] Starting at seven. Yeah. And do we know where that is? University of Utah.

Katie Hyde [00:06:51] Yeah, it's in the Open. The open building in the Union.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:06:54] We've been scrambling to get spaces for all of these things without having to pay an arm and a leg. So that's why we're a little. Or I'm a little discombobulated about the locations, but we will have to.

Katie Hyde [00:07:06] So to the University of Utah Union Building.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:07:09] Union building.

Katie Hyde [00:07:09] Okay. Yeah.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:07:10] So it's going to be from 7 to. I think we're saying from 7 to 9. It might go later than that, just with socializing and whatever. And it's mostly just to talk about sort of contingencies of what we think might happen and how people ought to react, speaking with the press, that kind of a thing, and just getting to know each other. So if anybody wants to attend that, that's open to the public as well.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Beautiful.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:07:39] And we did that last time, too. I don't think there's anything different this time.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] Okay. So it's kind of the same thing. Right. So I guess let's begin by making this a little bit personal. I'll go around and ask each of you why you're doing this. And specifically, you know, someone could say, you know, you've already done this. Why are we doing it again? And so I guess I want to hear from each of you as to why you feel like it's important to keep doing this. So, Nadine, let's start with you. Why are you doing this and why are we doing it again?

Why Mormon Feminists Are Seeking Ordination

Nadine Hansen [00:08:11] Well, I've been in favor of women having priesthood for a very long time, obviously. And for many years, Mormon feminists were talking to each other. And back in the late 1970s, women were starting to be ordained within some other religions. And I had done some reading about women who were changing the traditions in other faith traditions. And one day I was kind of standing in my bedroom. And I thought, somebody should write an article about Mormon women and the possibility of Mormon women having priesthood. And then I had this kind of feeling come over me, just like a ton of bricks kind of landing on top of me, saying, you should write it. And so I did, and it was a really scary thing to do. At the time, I didn't know very many other Mormon feminists, and those that I knew I had only recently met. But I was supportive of the Equal Rights Amendment. I had met Sonia Johnson because I tracked her down after. After she had testified before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Cool.

Nadine Hansen [00:09:39] And gotten acquainted. And she introduced me to a few other Mormon feminists, and those were all of the Mormon feminists. I knew it was kind of a lonely time in that sense because we didn't have the Internet and the ability to connect to other women. And so I wrote that article, and in the course of that, I found out about Dialogue and Sunstone and Exponent 2 and was able to connect with some other people. But we didn't have very much of a forum to raise this issue within the broader Mormon community. And then when the Internet came along, we had things like email lists, because we still didn't have blogs, even though we had the Internet. And so Mormon feminists started talking to each other via email emails that went to a whole list of people. And then when blogging came along and we had these wonderful blogs like Feminist Mormon Housewives, Mormon women were able to connect with each other and with the broader community. And I think this has given us a. An amazing opportunity to talk about this. And I think that it's really important to raise this issue within the public consciousness. A few years ago, not very many years ago, the Pew Research foundation did this study and found that actually Mormon men were more open to the idea of priesthood than Mormon women. And it was a pretty small segment of women who were really interested or willing to entertain the idea of women having priesthood. But I think that as we talk about it publicly, that's going to change. And so I just think it's really important to keep this out there in the public. And I applaud Katie for coming up with the idea and for all of the other young Mormon feminists who have made this happen. And I really salute them for that.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Excellent. All right, well, thanks, Nadine. Katie, you say you recently embraced your Mormon feminism. Just talk a little bit about what awakened in you and what brought you to the ordained women movement.

Katie Hyde [00:12:14] Well, it's been about a year that I've been feeling Kind of, you know, unsatisfied with how women are able to interact in the church and, like, what we're. What our access is. And I grew up living overseas, and so I went to church abroad. And, like, in high school, there was no stand. Like, nobody sat up there. It wasn't like here, where it's filled with, you know, the bishopric and the stake representatives and all of the men. Like, there was no privileging of that. And, like, my mom would help pick up the slack clerk work, like, unofficially, but if it needed to be done, she would do it. I was given really, like, large responsibilities as a teenager, as in the primary presidency. And, like, I saw mission presidents wives, and I feel like they have a really different role than stake presidents wives. They're a lot more involved. And I was used to that. And I came back to the States for university, and it. I mean, like, the church is the same, but a lot of the involvement was very different for women. And I was. I was going to university and I, you know, taking classes, becoming a critical thinker. I took a class about privilege and oppression, and I felt like I was seeing a lot of male privilege at church. And I got thinking about what it meant if women can't have the priesthood. And the more I thought about it, the more I felt like, does this mean. What is my divine potential and what is my role ultimately? Can I. Can women as a whole, are we not capable of having a divine power, Divine authority like men are? And so I was having all of these questions, and the ordained women movement came up, and I was like, oh, my gosh, no. I would never ask for ordination. I'm not a bad feminist. I want expanding roles for women, but I would never ask for priesthood. But I went to their interfaith fast that they had in August, and that was my first, like, offline experience where I was actually meeting people and able to have conversations. And they had a testimony meeting at the end. And I just. I felt the spirit really strongly. And I thought, like, I don't think that these are unrighteous women. And so that's what encouraged me to go to the October 5th movement. I was still kind of not sure when I went what I thought about it, but after I went, I really felt like I was in a place where people understood the pain that I was feeling about women in the church, and they accepted that. They didn't question. Like, a lot of people think that I shouldn't be feeling pain. And so I just felt really welcomed there. And then when we were Rejected at the door. It was just like a really real and physical manifestation of what I feel every week when I go to church. And. I don't think it's bad anymore to want to have greater participation in the church.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Right. Well, it's so nice to hear your story, so thank you so much for sharing. Kimberly, tell us why you're doing this again.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:16:01] Well, I'm doing it again because I had such a great experience doing it the first time. And I got involved. I worked with Stephanie Lauritson on the first Wear Pants to Church Day, and I did the PR for that, which I just got involved in because I really wanted to see direct action in Mormon feminism. So that was something that was being done that was public and visible. And I believed that now, in the Internet age, with very local news stories being so readily accessible to a wide audience, that we could really make something of these direct actions. We could really magnify our voice in a way that we weren't able to do before. So Katie Kelly contacted me because of my involvement in that, which is how I got involved in ordained women. And I have always, since I was a child, believed that women should have the priesthood. I always questioned why that wasn't to be for us. And none of the explanations have ever been satisfying to me. So that was just. In fact, when I first joined Feminist Mormon Housewives on Facebook a couple of years ago, the very first conversations I had were about women's ordination. And I was very much in the minority at that point in terms of advocating for it, and gotten this huge debate, this very sort of vigorous debate about whether that was an okay thing to want or to ask for, and the consensus was no. So to have Katie then approach me a couple of years later and have that be something that was on the table, that all of these Mormon feminists like Nadine people, I had admired for years that these people were starting to get on board. Or I mean, they had been on board. I shouldn't say started to get on board. They'd already been on board, but they were being coalesced into this group where they were young people and older people and people from all over the country, and we were all coming together to try to make this a more visible ask than it had been able to be previously because we didn't have the Internet. That was very compelling to me. So I'm doing it again because I loved doing it the first time, and I really believe in the cause.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Excellent. Well, we're so happy to have you along, Kimberly. Thank you. So, Deborah, Were you there in October?

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:18:29] I was.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Did we see each other?

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:18:32] I saw you from afar. You're hard to miss.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Oh, okay.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:18:36] Because you're, like, really tall. And I remember thinking, who is that tall person? He must be famous, because that's how,

John Dehlin [00:18:42] you know, all tall people are famous.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:18:44] That's the rule.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Like Tom Cruise and Sylvester Stallone. They're all super tall.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:18:49] Okay, maybe there are some exceptions, but. So, no, I didn't meet a lot of people in October. I was busy trying to eat a Happy Meal without anyone seeing. I got it, to be totally honest.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] So. So, Deborah, why are you doing this again?

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:19:05] Well, I guess, first of all, unlike Katie and more like Kimberly, I've always been a bad feminist in that since I was a kid. When I started coming to church at the age of 12, I believed that women should be ordained. It never made any sense to me that young men were somehow allowed to participate. And, I mean, I guess what I would say is I take the sacrament very seriously, as most Mormons do, and I see the privilege and responsibility of being able to administer that very seriously and believe that it blesses not just the people who take the sacrament, but the people who bless it and pass it. And I want to be a part of that and have for my entire life. So I guess I'm there again because I feel like I have to put my body wherever I can to demonstrate my support for this idea and this cause and to show people that I have this desire. I'm tired of being afraid of talking about it. I'm tired of having to whisper it in the halls at church and hope that no one will tell on me. A chance for me to stand out there and say, yes, I believe in this. And hopefully at least one other person will say, I believe in that, too, and it's okay to talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] Very nice. Okay, excellent. Well, ladies, thank you all for giving us that introduction. I do have a couple questions, and then I've also got some fabulous questions from some of those who have written in. So I know that Ruth Todd was generous enough to correspond a little bit with you guys in previous times. Can somebody give us an update on Ruth Todd? Because some may be interested to hear who can give us that update.

Requesting Priesthood Session Tickets

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:21:06] Sure, I will. This is Kimberly, and she has apparently gone to Nuskin. I think it happened pretty quickly after the last priesthood session. Now, I don't necessarily think those things are related, but it followed close on the heels of that. And so she has, as far as we know, she has left church employment and is Working full time for new skin. And she was good at replying to us the first time. Because one of the criticisms that we have gotten is, well, why don't you ask, instead of doing this public event, why don't you ask to meet with church leaders or why don't you request, make these requests privately instead of so publicly? Well, we've done that. Many of us have written to various officials in the church and we have privately requested tickets both from local leaders and from the church headquarters. And the last time we did that, well, all the times we've done it, we have gotten new no answers back. And Ruth Todd was one of the people, you know, that she was the one last time who replied to our formal private request for tickets for our group to attend the priesthood. And she replied, she declined the request. But this time we've done the same thing. We've submitted a formal private letter requesting tickets and to my knowledge, no one has replied yet. Is that right, Deborah? Deborah's the one who's actually haul all the letters everywhere.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:22:37] Yes, I deliver them by hand. And no, we have not gotten a response yet. And I mean, it's been two weeks and I think it took two weeks in September when we delivered our request as well. So I'm not willing to write them off yet. But we have been waiting for six months for a response to our request to meet with a general authority and have been pushed. Yeah, we've been pushed back and pushed back and we're looking into this and we're still checking. And so those requests have been, I would say they've been ignored or pushed to the side.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:23:21] No one's replied to us after that last such an event. We did request, you know, in addition to having requested tickets, we followed up with a request to meet privately with one or more general authorities to discuss our concerns and just to be heard, which is why we want the priest in the first place. And we can't even apparently be heard that way because nobody even replied to that request to meet.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to pepper you with a few sort of harder questions, just kind of representing, you know, people who may be skeptics or people who may not be on board just so that you guys can kind of address some of the questions that maybe some of the skeptics have in mind. Is that okay?

Nadine Hansen [00:24:10] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] And normally I would ask different people to answer the question, but I'm just going to ask you guys to just jump in when you want to talk because I'm. I'M not sure who wants to answer some of these questions. Okay. Is that all right? Okay. So the first question I have is like, and some of these questions I would have asked before, but I'm probably going to keep asking them anyway. If the brethren are led by God, if we believe that the prophet is inspired by God and that the brethren are leading this church through inspiration, then why do they need people's urging? You know, it's God's desire or not to make changes, and it's not ours to be steadying the ark. So who wants to tackle that one?

Nadine Hansen [00:25:05] I will.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:25:06] This is Deborah.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Okay.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:25:07] And I feel like I want to tackle that one because I finished the question. Before you even finished the question? I was writing it down.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Awesome.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:25:15] I would say that my first response would be, our leaders have been pretty clear, especially in the last six months, that the brethren are not infallible and have made mistakes in leading this organization in the past. We need to accept that it's time for our community to say, we have a responsibility here, too. We have a place in helping guide the conversation. And so that would be my first answer to that question, is I am being a responsible member of this organization and saying, hey, here's a question that I am fairly certain men of a certain age might not have ever considered that women might want to be ordained or might want to step up and have a leadership role. I'm perfectly willing to admit that they are benevolent in not ever considering this question. And so I'm standing up and saying, hey, what about this? Secondly, I think it's unfair to characterize us as studying the Ark. I would say we're more along the multiple examples of the Lord's people having a sincere desire and then going to their leaders and asking their leaders to take this to the Lord. We see examples like that throughout the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon Church history. This is not an uncommon way for this to happen, and we are following that model. So that would be my answer.

Nadine Hansen [00:26:53] Let me add something. I think most Mormons are familiar with the story of how we got the word of wisdom. And it came about because Emma was unhappy with the Brethren chewing tobacco, and she asked Joseph to pray about it, and he did, and we got the word of wisdom. We have a long history going back to the very beginnings of the church, of people raising questions and having the leadership prayerfully consider something. In fact, it's in our scriptures that, you know, you suppose that you would just ask, but in fact, you have to study it out in your own mind. So I think that raising the question is really an act of faith. And it's something that we're doing not to steady the arc, but to just simply raise people's awareness of what the problem is so that the leadership can consider it and discuss it and pray about it. And I think that also when African men of African descent didn't have priesthood, if you look at the wording of official declaration, too, it says that the brethren prayed long and hard in the upper rooms of the temple on behalf of their brethren. Well, I would like to see them demonstrate that same kind of empathy toward women. How about if they pray long and hard about the problems that women have in the church? And I think that priesthood for women would be one of the answers to those kinds of prayers.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] Got it. Okay, great.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:28:49] I have a quick thing to add, too. Can I read a scripture?

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Sure.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:28:55] In Matthew, ask and it shall be given. You seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. Those are very active injunctions given to us by Jesus Christ. And if he is our Lord and Savior, I don't know how we can criticize people who are earnestly doing that. And that's what we're doing. That's what we did at the tabernacle in October. We were respectful, we were quiet, we were calm, we asked, we sought, we knocked.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] Right.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:29:24] And that's what we're going to do again.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Excellent. I have to just mention, while we're at it, ordained women's gotten some fabulous press lately. I was listening to Radio west yesterday with Doug Fabrizio, and Lori Goodstein was on, along with a fellow co author for the New York Times. They were talking about a couple New York Times articles that have come out recently. Do you guys want to talk? Kimberly, I guess that's you. Do you want to talk about some of the publicity that ordained women has been receiving the past six months or so?

Media Coverage and Public Impact

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:29:59] Well, as much as I would like to take credit for every single thing that's written about us, it can't do that. Laurie Goodstein is a longtime New York Times religion reporter, and the particular stories that she's done in the last couple of weeks are not ones that we sought out. It's just, you know, some of it is me reaching out to people, and some of it is just sort of a momentum that has been built from the coverage we've already gotten in the last couple of years with the Wear pants at Church Day and the last Ordained Women) event or the last couple of Ordained Women) events. It just, it builds an appetite in the press to want to cover more of these stories. It's a really interesting human interest story to see. I mean, I think that Mormons, active Mormons are sometimes I think we underestimate how unusual our structure is to the outside world, that it's not typical anymore. And it is interesting for people to put a microscope on and to talk about because, you know, there just aren't that many organizations that are as patriarchal as the Mormon Church these days. So I think that has a lot to do with it.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] But what's been the impact of these articles? Have they, you know, can you describe a little bit about the impact or the reach?

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:31:31] Well, I know you know, the New York Times, of course, paper of records. So whenever you get into the New York Times, get any mention there, you're going to get a lot of nationwide interest. And I know that we've had a huge spike in hits to our website since those couple of articles were run. And they were very extensive articles. You know, they weren't little blurbs. They were a really comprehensive look at the structure of the church and how it impacts women. So that seems to have attracted a lot of interest. I know we've gotten resurgence and profile submissions as well. So that's great for us. Yeah, it's really helped a lot.

Who Supports Ordain Women) and What They Believe

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Excellent, excellent. So I have a two part question. You know, there's some people like, I'm curious to know what percentage of the women who are actively involved in ordained women are actually literal believers that like this is God's one true church and that this is his exclusive priesthood authority.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:32:37] Or

John Dehlin [00:32:40] if a significant number of ordained women participants simply don't believe in the church anymore, but they care about women's issues or this is a way to sort of to stir things up. So that's the first part of my question is, you know, how much of the ordain women movement is still, you know, by literal orthodox believing members of the church. But the second part is, is there a role for someone in ordained women if they don't really believe that the church is what it claims to be? Because, you know, there's kind of an argument that says, hey, if you believe, then engage. But if you don't believe that we're led by God and prophets, then it's kind of disingenuous for you to be, you know, asking us to change because, you know, the church believes they're led by God. So who wants to tackle that one?

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:33:36] Okay, I will if no one else wants to.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:33:39] I'm actually Kimberly, I'm looking for Nancy's.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:33:42] I was doing the same thing we did. Nancy Ross is one of our organizers. Did survey after the last event, after the last priesthood session event that we had in October and she surveyed the people who had attended that to get some sort of demographics of those people. And yeah, Deborah, shout if you find was definitely the majority. I'm thinking it was in the 70, upper 70% range are fully active and fully believing. Does that sound right to you?

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:34:18] Yeah, it was much higher than people have accused us of.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:34:22] Right.

Katie Hyde [00:34:23] Okay.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:34:24] Now I will say, I mean I'll go out on a limb and say that for me I'm no longer active or believing. But I was for 40 years and I come from a very, very Mormon family. All of my siblings and my mom recently passed away. She was active until she did. My dad continues to be active and was a recently released from his second stint as a bishop. My brother's a bishop. So I have a very. So all my nieces and nephews are involved in the church very actively and I'm constantly encouraging people who believe in what we're doing, even if they no longer attend and or believe in the truth claims of the church, to put up a profile and to to stake their claim there. Because I do it because of my family that's still involved and my little nieces and nephews. And I remember being a young girl and being very confused by the role of women in the church and why did it have to be this way and some of the things that I was told I should grow up to be. I didn't feel particularly called to, but I felt very much like I would be on the outside of all of these people I love in this community I was raised in if I didn't fulfill all of those things that I was being told I was supposed to want. And I don't want my nieces and nephews and other 12 year old girls like me to grow up feeling that constrained. I want them to have a broader scope and that doesn't mean that every girl has to be ordained. But it would be nice if they could choose that if they were called to it, if they felt personally called to it. It would be nice if the role of women were expanded such that girls like me didn't feel so kind of shoved in a little box that does not suit our particular personalities and our particular abilities. So that's why I do it.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] Got it. Okay. That's beautiful. Thank you. Anybody else?

Katie Hyde [00:36:28] I found the numbers from Nancy Ross, please. So the people she talked to what she has here is that 95% of the respondents were members of the church. 72% said that they go to church regularly two to three times a month, and only 14% said that they no longer attend church but still identify as Mormon. 80% of the participants were under 40, and 22% of the participants were men.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] Okay, excellent. Very good. So for those who aren't believing or active, it's simply done out of concern for the women and girls who remain. Is that pretty fair to say?

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:37:16] Well, that's fair to say of me now. As I said before, when I was believing in active, I thought women should have the priesthood, so I should say that, or women should have the option of having the priesthood. That I didn't come to this. My belief in women being ordained has absolutely nothing to do with my belief in the church. Those things have not dovetailed at all. I've always, as long as I can remember thinking about it, believed women should be able to have the priesthood. And my exit from the church has been pretty recent, within the last couple of years. So I'm not going to ditch that position just because I've sort of changed my relationship to the church. And I still, you know, as I said, I feel very Mormon. I was raised in it for 40 years. I have years, 40, 40 years of on the ground investment in it, and it's still important to me. And I'm not going to give that up because somebody tells me I should go somewhere else.

Challenges for Young Women) in the Church

Katie Hyde [00:38:10] All right.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Okay. I got a really nice email from someone named Chris, who is a father of several daughters, and he wrote a really touching email that basically said, I'm torn because while I want to see women and girls being given more opportunities in the church, I'm not so sure the church is a safe place to raise a daughter. And so I'm not sure I even want to try and instigate change because I'm just not even sure it's a safe place for girls and women. Anybody want to take a stab at that? Katie, you want to try?

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:38:55] Sure.

Katie Hyde [00:38:55] I disagree. I talked about the pain that I have felt at church, but I think I have faith in that this is the gospel of Christ and that we are endeavoring to build the kingdom of God. And so I think that there's a lot of things about Mormonism that is really good for our young girls. I think the fact that we have a heavenly mother, even though it's not talked about, it's there. And I think having that knowledge is really important to the girls. And I also believe, like the young women's, while it has often been compared to the young men's program and shown how it is lacking in lots of places, which I agree with, I still think it's better than nothing. Like, I know that I have had participation in young women's class presidencies, and I feel like that has given me a lot of opportunities to learn things in a safe place that I might not have been able to learn in other places and other skills. You know, we speak in church and these different things. So I think. I think perhaps that it can be. It can be hazardous at times. But I. I mean, I don't agree that it's doomed. Like, I really believe that it's the gospel of Christ. And I guess that's why I'm still here. You know, I could. I could just leave, as people have said, but I think that this is the place where we all belong.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:40:35] Well, I will say that I did actually leave because I have daughters and I attended for many years not believing, but I still loved the community and wanted to be involved. So I hung in there for a while without having any real belief in the truth claims at that point, but just these were my people, this is my tribe, and I had raised my kids in it, and it was theirs as well. And the thing that finally, the catalyst for me to finally leave, to not attend anymore was that my oldest daughter turned 12, and as that, you know, she turned 10, 11. And as that time got closer, when she would go into young women, I started to get really panicked because young women was where I started to feel when I was a teenager, very. That, you know, in primary, everybody sort of had the same roles and I didn't feel like I was a girl. I was just a person. And it wasn't until I got into young women that I started to feel very constrained. As I was saying before by, this is what it means to be a girl. This is what it means to be what it will mean for you to be a woman. And these are the qualities that you have and these are the things you're supposed to do with your time. And, you know, some of those things resonated with me, but many of them did not. And it was very confusing to have these people that I love and trust to these authority figures telling me things about myself that I knew weren't true, not for me. And it shaped some of the decisions that I made in a way that I know was harmful to me, because it wasn't. That's not who I was. It's not what I was supposed to be doing. And I didn't want my daughters to feel that. And I know that it's. I grew up in the 80s. I was a teenager in the 80s. I know from having taught young women, I've taught beehives, laurels, miamids as an adult. Last time I taught young women was five years ago, maybe. And I loved teaching young women. But I've seen firsthand. And I don't live in Utah. I've not lived in Utah since I went to college. I've lived in pretty liberal areas that are very diverse. And young women has gotten much more. Much more about gender roles than it was when I was growing up. And that was very alarming to me to see. So that was the thing that caused me to. Now, if my children choose to go back at some point, I would be totally supportive of that. And we only did leap. I asked their opinion about it, and I wanted it to be their decision more than it was mine because it's their spiritual life and I would support them in whatever they chose. But. But they were seeing the same kinds of things. And we've chosen to take a break and like I said, may go back at some point. But that was the thing that caused me to really have those discussions with them about, do we really want to be doing this right now? These are the concerns that I have.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Got it.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:43:45] So can I say something? Yeah, sure. This is Deborah. I think it's important to remember that there are problems for young women in the church. My oldest daughter is about to turn 12, and I'm terrified. But my experience has been that there are some really amazing things for young women in this church. The values, the idea that I had a divine nature and an individual worth was. I can't even put to words how important that was in making me who I am today. The scary things that I see are largely socially constructed. And that's kind of what I hang my staying on. I hang my hopes on the idea that I can try to move some of the young women leaders that my daughter's gonna work with. I also think it's important because I have a teenage son, to remember that the way we talk about girls and women in this church by default is just as dangerous for men and young boys.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:44:48] I totally agree with that.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:44:49] Mothers of sons and wives, wives of husbands and women who've ever had an experience with a good, righteous, upstanding Mormon man should be up in arms over this narrative that women are more spiritual and men need the priesthood to do These things, because that says so many terrible things about the young man I am raising.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:45:14] And I totally agree with.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:45:16] Refuse to accept the narrative for either one of my children. And so that's like. That would be my response. That is something that I get really fired up about because I'm worried about my daughters, but I am just as worried about what it says to my son.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] Right, right. Beautiful.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:45:35] And my son was more. I have a. He's nine years old now, so this is when we actually stopped going. He was just barely 8, and he was far more concerned about what he saw, the disparity between men's and women's roles than my daughters were. Actually. He was very defensive of them. And I don't think he was old enough to have absorbed the narrative that Deborah's talking about. But seeing how sensitive he was to the very visible difference in men's and women's roles, I was concerned for the same reasons that she is, that as he grew, he would start to absorb those verbal narratives and, you know, it would affect how he thought about himself as well as how he thought about his sisters and his future wife if he gets married or whatever. And that was. I totally agree. It's just as bad for boys, just as damaging for their self concept as it is for girls.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] Yeah. Thank you. Okay. This will be a question for Nadine. Debbie writes, do they believe the priesthood is real? To me, it seems like the men have a unicorn and women want one, too. Nadine, what do you think about that?

Nadine Hansen [00:46:58] Well, I think that certainly most of these young women who come do think that priesthood is real and they want it because they feel called to it. I've been really impressed in interacting with these young women, both at the event last October and also online, that they really do believe in the priesthood and they really feel like the Lord is leading them to and calling them to seek to have priesthood themselves. So, yeah, I think that just. I mean, it's kind of like the last question that you were asking about how many are active and believing. But I think the largest group of them do, in fact, believe that priesthood is real.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Okay.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:47:57] Well, it also depends on what you mean by the priesthood, because, of course, the priesthood is a spiritual power. And I'm assuming that was what the question was about, was whether we believe it's a spiritual power, but the priesthood is also an administrative power. And that's not nothing. That's incredibly important. And that is exactly why so many women are feeling. I mean, the spiritual power is sort of a different thing. Like Nadine said, that is a personal calling that people have, that they really want to participate in these spirit spiritual ways in their community, their gospel community. And they see the men doing that and being gratified and enhanced by it, and they want the same thing. But then even aside from that, there's voice in the church, and women have very little voice. And my mother was fully active and Relief Society president, young women's president, and all the presidents of everything. And she, and she wouldn't have called herself a feminist, but I grew up hearing my mother have problems with not having adequate voice in her callings. Even though she was technically over certain areas of the ward, she many times depending on the bishop. Of course, it was variable. Some bishops give you more leeway than others. But the fact that a bishop has to give you leeway over the organization you were called to be in charge of and that you're dependent on his personal judgment for that, that speaks to how little independent voice women have. And that's what the administrative power of the priesthood is. And, you know, that is important to help women feel fully integrated in the church. And they don't have that now. And especially with women having so many, so much opportunity for equal roles outside of the church, women are, you know, out there working and serving in the same capacities that men are in their jobs. And there's a real cognitive dissonance that happens when they go to church. And all of a sudden they're kind of back in the 1950s, and, you know, that creates a dissatisfaction that needs to be addressed.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] So one wrote, or one reader, one listener wrote in and said, do you think you're doing damage to the church by making a public issue with only 1300 people signing your petition? But there's 5 million, you know, other women in Relief Society, and they want nothing to do with your movement. So I'll ask this to Deborah. Is there a chance that, you know, you guys are embarrassing the church and causing harm when really you're just so in the minority that it doesn't even warrant the publicity it's getting?

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:50:43] I would not agree with the premise of the question, first of all, but I guess the goal is not to embarrass the church. If the church finds what we are talking about embarrassing, then I think that says more about the situation than our organization.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] But aren't you totally in the minority? I mean, I've heard that women in the LDS Church, and we talked about this last time, they actually favor female ordination generally less than men do in our church.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:51:16] So, first of all, we are up to 2000 likes on our Facebook page. So I would say their numbers are wrong. Second, this is an extremely controversial topic to bring up and women not 20 years ago were being excommunicated for even discussing and advocating this. So to have 2000 people willing to put their necks out and publicly say they support this and to have 250 women attend a public moment knowing they were going to be filmed and they could have been on any local news program In Utah on October 5th, that is huge. We're also, we're not an organization run by the majority. I wasn't really aware of what happened in 1978, but my understanding is the numbers didn't look too great then either about expanding priesthood blessings and opportunities to men and women of color in the church. So I don't understand how we can be bashed on one side for not allowing the prophet to do his work, but then bashed on the other side for not having enough people pushing. Does that make sense? Like either we're run by revelation and the needs of even the one, right? I have 90 and nine. I'm going to go after the one. Either that matters or it doesn't. And right now we're losing women. It matters.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:52:43] We're such a top down organization that I mean, I would think any active Mormon would know that when the, I'm going to say when the prophet comes out and tells it announces that the priesthood has been expanded to women, that you'll see that number entirely flip. And you know, in the early 1900s there was a survey done about a nationwide survey done about women getting the vote. And the percentage of women who believed women shouldn't get the vote was 90%, exactly the same as that Pew survey for women getting the priesthood. And the social issue there is that as women under patriarchy, you are told from when you're a little kid, I mean I can remember being, I can remember hearing women talk about the priesthood and it's not something women are supposed to want. It makes you a bad person and in the church, an unfaithful person to even begin to want that, to even think about the possibility of it. And when you are inculcated with that from infancy, really, it's no surprise that only 90% of women think and now that survey is a couple of years old too. It'd be interesting to know since ordained women has come on the scene and gotten so much attention, what the numbers are now. But I mean even if they remain the same, that remains an issue that women are so discouraged and so Shamed for. For even thinking about wanting it, much less speaking up publicly and saying they want it. That, you know, there's no psychological surprise there that you would have that many women saying, oh, no way.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:54:32] Yeah. And if I could just share an anecdote. When I was called into my bishop's office for wearing pants to church, one of the what he presented to me as the absolute worst possible thing that I could be wanting was not that I was wearing pants to church. He wanted to know about that and he wanted to know about feminism, explaining, explain this to me. But he presented to me this horrifying scenario in which I might possibly want the priesthood and said, you're not going to be one of those people. That would be terrible. And I sat back and thought, oh, no, he's not going to be happy.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:55:14] I did a lot of interviews for the wear pants to church thing, and that was the of part. Probably the most frequent question we got is, you're just doing this to get the priesthood. Now, even though I personally believe in ordination, that's not what the pants thing was about. And so the answer was, no, we're not. That's not the goal of this particular group or event. But yeah, that's the.

Debra (Ordain Women) [00:55:33] It's the boogeyman that we use to scare women.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [00:55:37] Yeah, that's the DEF CON 1 question. This whole thing's gonna blow.

Theological Questions About Women) and Priesthood

John Dehlin [00:55:44] Katie, here's a question for you. If you believe in God, why hasn't God already taken care of this? Why is God waiting so long? Why didn't God set things up correctly to begin with?

Katie Hyde [00:55:58] So I've thought about that a lot, actually. I've been told, you know, you can't picket God. He's not going to change his mind. And I agree. I want to believe that God doesn't see me as someone with less potential than my brother. I think, though, that we are in a fallen world and we have a lot of societal and cultural influences and we don't live in Zion. A lot of times I think about the brother of Jared and how he goes to the Lord and he says, we have these boats. We're going to cross the water, but we can't breathe and it's really dark. And God says, well, this is how you can breathe. But he doesn't answer the question about the darkness. He just makes it so that the people can have the bare necessities that they need to cross the waters. And it isn't until the brother of Jared says, no, it's really important to us that we can see and goes back to the Lord and says, please, can we do something about this? We understand that we'll be able to make it this way, but we want to make it an enjoyable journey for everyone. And God says, well, what do you want to do? And that's when he suggests the stones. And I feel like it's the same way. Like, we have the priesthood right now and we're going to be able to make it through with it. But I think that if, like the brother of Jared, we go and we say, like, we want to make this a better journey for everyone. Can we please have some light that that's acceptable to God?

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Beautiful. Okay, great. So this is kind of. This is, you know, a bit of an interesting question. A listener wrote in and said, is it not good enough to be mothers? I heard an explanation which said God gave women so much power and the ability to bring forth forth life physically that he needed to balance that by giving men priesthood authority. Whereas women are naturally bonded to their children through the flesh in giving birth, fathers are bonded to their children spiritually through performing baptism and confirmation. Nadine, you get a first crack at that one.

Nadine Hansen [00:58:20] Oh, my. You know, one of these days, maybe we're going to do away with the motherhood priesthood odd couple, which I didn't think that term up. Years ago, a friend of mine and wonderful feminist Sonja Farnsworth wrote about Mormonism's odd couple, motherhood and priesthood. And, you know, of course, we're bonded to our children in a physical way, but ask an adoptive mother if she's not bonded to her children, too. Most of what bonds us to our children is caring for them and seeing to their needs and helping them grow up. Motherhood is certainly the most important thing I've ever done. But in addition to being a mother, I'm much more than that as well. I've done many, many other things. I went to law school when I had four kids, and I'm wonderfully proud of my great kids. But I'm also pleased with the other things I've been able to do in life. And I think that question was raised by a man, and I guess I would ask him, isn't fatherhood enough? We're defined by our relationships and by our roles and by all kinds of things about us. And it's so much more than parenthood.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:00:07] I would add that if priesthood is the corollary to motherhood, if priesthood is there in part to. If priesthood is given exclusively to men, in part to sort of make up for the fact that they don't get to be mothers and to bridge that gap of bonding with children, which, I mean, I'm married and have children and I don't see my husband being any less bonded than I am. But putting that aside, if it's the case that it's there to bridge that gap, then why do men get the priesthood when they're 12 years old? Why are they eligible for it at 12 years old? I don't see many 12 year old fathers fortunately floating around Mormonism. So the fact that you don't need to be a father ever to hold the priesthood, I mean, you can be single for your whole life and hold the priesthood, or you can hold the priesthood for many years before you become a father, if you do become a father, if that's the explanation, then, you know, why don't women have the priesthood until they become mothers or men have to wait until they become fathers?

Nadine Hansen [01:01:10] And the corollary to that is, is actually not all women are mothers either.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:01:16] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] Got it. Yeah, absolutely.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:01:22] Or if you are a mother, you don't always have a man, you don't always have a husband. There are plenty of single mothers who aren't really adequately covered by that because they are in a home where there is not the priesthood, where there's not a priesthood holder who could minister to them. And they feel sort of from many of them I've talked to a little bit up a creek

Nadine Hansen [01:01:43] and motherly duties don't last a lifetime.

John Dehlin [01:01:46] Right, right, absolutely. Okay, very good. Two more questions and then I think we're ready to invite our listeners again to support you guys. So can we concede that the church has made some good progress over the past year or two? And if so, are any of you guys ready to, any gals ready to kind of enumerate the positive steps forward just to kind of positively reinforce the change that has been occurring?

Progress, the Path Forward, and How to Help

Nadine Hansen [01:02:19] Absolutely. This is Nadine. I think that we've seen really a lot of progress in the church over the last few years. And I think it's very important to put it in perspective. We've got women who now pray in General Conference. The big change of course was the lowering of the age of women who are going on missions. And I think in many ways that's a game changer because these young women, first of all, we're going to have a lot more women who go on missions and that's going to, that's going to influence their whole life. The skills they gain, the experience they gain on missions, they're going to bring back into all areas of their life, just as our young men have done for a very long time. So these young women go out, they teach converts, and then when it comes time to baptize those converts, they have to turn them over to young men. And not only can only the young men baptize them, the young women, they can't even be witnesses, official witnesses to the baptism. And that's going to change their lives and their perspectives on women's roles in the church. So I think that's a huge development to having so many young women going on missions and going back to. It was, I think, probably around 1980, late 70s, early 80s, when women were allowed to pray in sacrament meeting. And one of the interesting things about that was the brethren said that they had studied the Scriptures and there was no scriptural prohibition on women praying, and women could pray in any meeting that they attend. Well, you know what? There's no prescription on women having priesthood either. And in fact, in the New Testament, you see women in what we now consider priesthood roles. Phoebe the deacon and Junia the apostle. So there's this history that could be developed, and there's certainly a history within Mormonism of women having very strong and important roles in the church, and some would argue priesthood roles. I won't get into that debate because you've covered that in prior podcasts. But as we see women, as we see the church responding to women's issues by expanding women's roles, that's going to continue to have. It's just going to not make sense anymore for women not to have priesthood. I think what the brethren need to do is they need to take a look at what roles in the church could women fill without priesthood. There are lots of callings that men now do that really don't require priesthood. Ward clerks, the head of the Sunday school. There are just really a lot of things that you don't actually have to have priesthood to do. And I think that's the next step is taking a real close look at what women can do. We need to stop saying, you can't do this because you're a woman, and start saying. Or because you don't have priesthood and start saying, well, how about if we put women's talents to use within the church in every calling that doesn't have priesthood? I think that if they would do that, that would be a step toward empowering women in more ways. We'd start looking at women in different ways. We'd start understanding better what their talents are. So these little steps along the way are really very important. And eventually, the other thing they need to do is draw on this rich history that Mormon women have and all the wonderful things that women did, blessing other women, laying their hands on the sick. These are all things from the 19th century that we now consider priesthood ordinances. But they really, at the time women did them, whether you want to say they did it by virtue of their priesthood that came through the temple or just by their priest. I mean, not priesthood, but their status as believers. If we can expand those kinds of roles to women, then it really blurs the line between what is acceptable for women to do and what isn't. And that's how we move this forward. And so I really do see the church moving toward greater inclusion of women in a lot of areas in the church where they didn't used to include women. And we just need to change our thinking and stop thinking about why women, stop making up excuses about why women can't have priesthood, and start thinking about, well, what can we do? And I think that

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:08:07] I hope that

Nadine Hansen [01:08:08] we won't see people making up excuses as to why women can't have priesthood, because someday people are going to have to eat those words or we're going to have to marry them. We've got this new essay now about men of African descent and priesthood, and we've got a lot of rhetoric that looks really, really bad and that's really embarrassing to us now. Well, let's not create that kind of rhetoric about women. Let's continue to move forward and continue to empower women in every way we can. And then the day will come when it's just not going to make sense to have only males have priesthood. And like I said, I'm encouraged. I think we're on the right track and we're moving this along.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] Excellent.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:09:01] I just wanted to very briefly add that I don't think anybody would argue, at least I've not heard anybody argue that these recent changes, having women pray in General Conference, having women serve missions at a younger age, those kinds of things have hurt the church. I don't think anybody would claim that those are unhealthy changes to have made to expand these things that used to be exclusively or more exclusively the purview of men to women. And so I would. If we, if these incremental changes are perceived to be beneficial to the church and to, you know, if you're. If the women are being benefited, the church is being benefited, if faithful women are able to more fully participate, then that seems to me to be really positive for the church. So why Would women being ordained be any different?

Katie Hyde [01:09:55] I absolutely agree. And I think it's been really surprising how since just since October 2012, when they changed the mission age, how much has already started to move along. Besides just like lowering the sister's age, that also includeshas the fact that women are now able to be endowed at younger ages. They don't have to wait for a marriage to a man to be endowed. And they've also created the leadership positions. I mean, like, we can debate how great those positions are, but the fact that they exist is, I think, a really important step. We mentioned how they've introduced women praying in conference. They, they've expanded the Young Women)'s Council. I don't know if they did it with the Relief Society, but the women's councils have been expanded. I think the broadcasting of the priesthood session has been a really great improvement now that it's more inclusive. And I think also the speakers there recognize that they are speaking at the general session, that women are consumers of this, too, that it's going to be taught to us in our sacrament talks and in our Sunday school lessons, and that we can be privy to it, apparently not inside the building, but at our houses. And additionally, there's just this week the BYU president was changed and they had the article saying that they considered a woman for that position, which has never happened before. There's the change in the Relief Society, the general Relief Society meeting. I don't know if we consider that a good thing or not, but it's happened. I mean, there's a lot of things that are going on, and I think it's better that things start to happen and we can see where they go than to just sit in a sedentary way and have nothing happen at all.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:11:52] Well, we get accused a lot of doing this in order to tear down the church or damage the church or embarrass the brethren, as you mentioned before, John, in some way, and nothing could be further from the truth. We're trying, we're doing our little part in the world to try to make Mormonism more inclusive, to try to bring more priesthood power to the earth. How could that be a bad thing? How could more people exercising priesthood and contributing, whether administratively or spiritually, to the life of the church, how could that possibly be a negative? Right?

Debra (Ordain Women) [01:12:28] And I just, on the point of the broadcasting the priesthood session that was, I didn't realize it at the time, I kind of thought, what a cop out. When they announced that, I was a little irritated. But on October 5, when we stood, when we gathered at that park and then walked over and then stood in that line. And then we're told one after another. You know, when I had that experience of being turned away at the door and it was extremely painful, I had the opportunity to walk back to the park and listen to Elder Kose's talk that he gave on my phone until the battery died out. But I was able, that was soothing to my soul to be able to listen to the priesthood session live for just a moment and hear him say, all are welcome here. And I felt like for just that one brief moment that that talk was just for me and that would not have been possible six months before. And so I give the church credit for making the changes that they have made. But just because they've moved an inch doesn't mean I'm done asking them to move.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] Right? Okay, so this has been very, very enjoyable for me. It's always nice to hear varying perspectives. I think the question that I got most is probably the question that you guys are going to want to hear most. It's simply the question of what can I do in my local ward and my family, what can I do for the movement? You know, people are dying to know that they're seeing that sometimes uptake on, on this topic is slow and they're just wanting to know how do we, how do we make a difference? So, so Kimberly, why don't you go ahead and, and start and tell our listeners what they can do?

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:14:18] Well, we would love to have people submit a profile. Our website is www.ordainewomen.org and you can go up there and read the testimonies of women and men who support women's ordination and add your own. We would love to have those. I mean, that is, that's the greatest ongoing way I think, that we can contribute our voices to this cause because people can go up there at any time of the day or night and read these things and they're very much testimonies, they're very moving and personal and I think really give people a window into the fact that we are not trying to hurt the church, that we are not trying to embarrass the church, that we don't have, you know, ill gotten motives in doing what we're doing. And gosh, come to the priesthood session if you're anywhere in the area or you can make it to the area, to Salt Lake. We would love to have people come and support us through there. The more people who are there, the less we can be shouted down as being an Insignificant minority. Really show people with your body that you believe in this. And, you know, then the other way, I would. Just as I said before, I had a very faithful mother, and she taught me from a really young age that in the church especially, that you should be vocal about what you believe, whether it's popular or not, because there are always people, unseen, silent people in the ward who share those beliefs but are afraid to speak up because of the kind of social disapproval that can come down in your head if you do it. And she always taught me to use your voice locally to make the ward a safer place for people who share some of your beliefs, and that it makes people feel less alone. It makes people feel more a part of the ward and, like, they have a friend and they're not the black sheep. And, you know, as Deborah mentioned, we're supposed to go after the One. And that's one of the ways on a local level you can go after the One, is just to not hide your feelings about women's ordination or any other sort of unpopular opinion in the church. You know, let your voice be heard in your ward as well.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] Beautiful. Nadine, how about you?

Nadine Hansen [01:16:36] Well, those were the most important things, but I think just keeping the conversation alive also on the Internet and among your friends, I think that as we talk about it, we make the place safer to talk about. We make our space safer. Safer for people to talk about it and to not just talk about it, but to think it's okay to believe that women should be ordained. So I just think having this conversation go on is a real what's the word I want. It enables people to do that paradigm shift that they need to do in order to expand women's roles in the church and for women to be ordained.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] Excellent. All right, Katie, you got something for us?

Katie Hyde [01:17:31] Yes, actually. So we have, like, a little infographic. You might want to put it with, your podcast, actually, that we created, that is states 10 different ways you can help support ordain women. And I think it's really great because it reaches out to everyone along the spectrum. Some people, it says, including just like, fast and pray for your sisters. If you're at a point where you don't feel like you can publicly offer your support, you can still support us in spiritual ways through fasting and prayer. It includes other things. Like, that's been mentioned before, the importance of submitting a profile. We also are really hoping to get profiles in other languages besides English. So if that's something that you're able to do, it would make a really big difference to be able to reach out to people who speak other languages besides our own and just, you know, come with us. Come stand in line with me. It's going to be great. I felt so much love and community when I went in October and I felt acceptance and it's going to be like that again. Come stand with us. But there's lots of other ways. If you can't come, if you can't come to Utah, if that's not an ability within your ability, just go to your own church building and watch the broadcast there with, you know, with your brothers and bring some sisters. Have it. Have it be an event for everyone. I mean, it's a general conference. It's supposed to be for everyone in our church, so. But yeah, we'll have to give you this infographic. It has 10 different ways that people can be involved.

John Dehlin [01:19:02] Isn't there a way for someone to sort of ask their name to be submitted or.

Katie Hyde [01:19:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:19:08] What is that?

Debra (Ordain Women) [01:19:09] Proxy cards.

Katie Hyde [01:19:10] Exactly. You can submit your name on our website. There's like a tab for you to enter and you can put your name and you can put a message. Isn't that right, Kimberly? There's a message box.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:19:22] Yes, I know there's a message box. I actually done it, but.

Katie Hyde [01:19:26] Oh, okay. Well, you can enter this on the website and we'll have cards printed up and we're going to carry them the day of. And we have a plan actually to have a photo taken of the sister or brother. Brother who is carrying your proxy card name so that you can have a photo and kind of have more inclusion in the experience if you're not able to come physically.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:19:49] There's also a link on our website to donate money if you can't be there in person but you want to support the cause and put some bodies on the ground. We have people who can go but don't have the money to buy plane tickets. People who aren't local. And so if you have a little cash to spend, Even if it's $5, $10, however much you have on hand, but you can't physically be there, then we would love to have you donate money so that that money can go to buy a plane ticket or pay for gas or something for somebody else who can be there.

Katie Hyde [01:20:25] Because we're also arranging carpools from different

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:20:28] areas and all of that information is on our website. If you, if you want to hop on there and figure out if there is a carpool that's going through your area that you could join or like I said, Just donate money. There are all kinds of ways that we're trying to sort of crowdsource and get people involved in helping each other to physically get to the priesthood session event on April 5th.

John Dehlin [01:20:51] Excellent. All right, Deborah, we're going to give you the final word. What do you got to say for us?

Debra (Ordain Women) [01:20:55] I would say, first of all, like the Facebook page, because that's a place where you can actually see the conversations happen. You can see the new profiles as they go up. And before I submitted my profile on March 18th last year, right. As soon as I heard about it, one of the first things I did was look at the other profiles to see who these people were. Were they really crazy, scary people, or were they just like me? And the Facebook page is a great place to see this conversation. So see the other profiles and get news and also engage in the conversation. Come scatter some sunshine with us. And then I guess probably the only other thing I would talk about is the importance of. If you come to the October event, we would absolutely love to have you come and stand in line with us and to come to the training the night before, because that's where we learn how to have these conversations face to face, and that can be very important. This is not. I firmly believe this is not a movement that happens by people seeing us on the news, maybe by hearing how charming we are on a podcast. But really, it's something that you have to hear and see the person. And this is where we have these conversations and go back and forth and explain why we're there. And that is an experience that I just would hope that everyone can have. Come and join us if you can't, and give us your name for a proxy card, because we want to bring you with us in spirit.

John Dehlin [01:22:29] Excellent. All right, well, the. The date is April 5th. The time is 4pm the location is City Creek Park, Salt Lake City, and The website is ordainwomen.com sorry, ordainwomen.org and Lara. Sorry, Nadine, Katie, Kimberly, and Deborah. I just want to thank you all so much for all your courage and hard work. I want to thank Katie and Heather and all the other participants of Ordained Women). But thanks for coming on Mormon Stories for all your courage, and I hope you guys are all successful, and I hope we see female ordination very soon.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Nadine Hansen [01:23:12] Thank you.

Debra (Ordain Women) [01:23:13] Thank you so much.

Katie Hyde [01:23:14] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:23:15] All right, you guys take care.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:23:17] You too.

Debra (Ordain Women) [01:23:17] Bye. Bye.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:23:18] Bye.

Katie Hyde [01:23:38] Come, come, ye saints.

Kimberly Brinkerhoff [01:23:40] No toil nor labor fear,

John Dehlin [01:23:45] but with joy when you're.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.