Introducing John Kovalenko and His Mormon Background

John Dehlin [00:00:02] What's your name?

John Kovalenko [00:00:02] I'm John Allen Kovalenko.

John Dehlin [00:00:05] And where do you live?

John Kovalenko [00:00:07] I am from and also currently reside in Provo. As a student Student at BYU senior year.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] What are you studying?

John Kovalenko [00:00:17] Violin performance.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Really?

John Kovalenko [00:00:20] Kind of. Also I think I probably have more philosophy classes than music classes this semester, but it's kind of an unofficial thing

John Dehlin [00:00:27] that's pretty demanding at BYU music. It's like a conservatory.

John Kovalenko [00:00:30] Yeah, it's really insane.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] It's about 20 hours semester, essentially. Which of the orchestras are you in?

John Kovalenko [00:00:40] I'm in the chamber and philharmonic orchestras.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Having a good time?

John Kovalenko [00:00:44] Yeah, we haven't been going for very long so far. We'll see. I'm sure this will be a good year.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] So what type of Mormon are you?

John Kovalenko [00:00:55] What are my choices?

John Dehlin [00:00:57] How do you describe yourself? Your. Let's see.

John Kovalenko [00:01:07] I have some thoughts already. First of all, in almost everything, I really, really try to stay away from classifications or labels. I find them to be not just inhibiting but also dist. Constructive. So as far as what kind of Mormon I am, I would say that I am a Mormon and have had a certainly decidedly more unorthodox experience than most of my peers and probably most other members having been affected just by my upbringing and personal experiences. But you know, I'm a BYU student, I'm a member of the church and I'm trying to go with it right now.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] What was so unorthodox about your upbringing?

John Kovalenko [00:01:59] Well, having had a father who was excommunicated for the second time a week before my baptism so as to not be able to baptize me was, you know, brought a whole bunch of issues. My parents met each other at Gene England's home when my father was living with Gene England. I was kind of raised on sunstone and have been exposed having most of both sides of my family are either inactive or hostile against the church. And so I've been exposed to a lot of.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] Both sides of your family?

John Kovalenko [00:02:33] Yeah, yeah. So I've been exposed to a lot of non Mormon and anti Mormon thinking my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] So what in the heck are you doing at byu?

John Kovalenko [00:02:45] That's such a good question, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Were you encouraged to come here? Did you do any repelling?

John Kovalenko [00:02:51] No, I actually.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] Rebelling?

John Kovalenko [00:02:54] No. It's funny. My first two years of college were down in Cedar City at Southern Utah University and I had left Provo to never return. I was attending school down there and was exploring a spiritual path that included anything but Mormonism or even really organized religion at all. I guess wasn't really part of my spiritual process at that time. But I ended up taking missionary discussions in one last effort to simply make peace with my upbringing and then move on from it, which is what I anticipated the result to be, but ended up feeling really moved by the spirit, felt converted to the Book of Mormon. Converted to it. I don't know if that even works, but at least I felt very, very much inspired by it and felt that it was true and that I needed to consider the implications of its truth into the organization of the church. And then after a while of kind of, I guess, being sort of like a hippie Mormon sort of person, there's a classification. Then I actually felt a really strong impression to transfer to byu, and we were definitely in a fight for a little bit over that one. I didn't want to come here at all, but I did, and I've been very pleased with my experience overall.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] Thinking back to the way you were raised with your parents and stuff, did you resent the influence that Sunstone and Dialogue had on them that led to all the complexities that you had to deal with in whatever confusion or frustration you had? Did you associate that with some sort of dialogue at all?

John Kovalenko [00:04:44] No.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] No, no. Why not?

John Kovalenko [00:04:47] Well, I hadn't even done my own exploration into the issues at hand until I was into my adult life, if I'm in an adult life at all. I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Do you feel like senseless and a Dialogue were good for your parents or not good for your parents and Eugene Englund and that whole crowd?

John Kovalenko [00:05:09] Yeah. Well, I can't put my two parents in the same crowd at all. As far as Eugene England and that whole thing, I think his absence is a real loss to. To the BYU community and to the church community, to the Sunstone community. I think that he was a really pivotal figure in Mormonism and in the intellectual community for a long time. And I think that, I guess his philosophy and ideals are most. Are the ideas that I most highly resonate with and find the greatest amount of reconciliation with when confronting difficult issues. So as far as my mom, she wasn't really involved much in Sunstone. My dad, on the other hand, I think that he uses it now as a forum for propagating his own unorthodox ideas and getting attention and trying to cling on to his cultural roots, since he's very much not welcomed by and doesn't want to be a participant in the religious community. But he still identifies strongly, I think, with cultural Mormonism, which is difficult for a lot of us as his family members, his children because he just like, like, dad, you're not Mormon at all, like, let it go. But he just keeps on talking about it, keeps on presenting really bizarre things at Sunstone symposia, things like that embarrasses us, that's all.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] So what has been the joy and the difficulty with being at byu?

John Kovalenko [00:06:49] Oh, the joy. There's so many joys at byu. It's an incredible education, It's a beautiful environment, It's a stimulating academic environment. And for me specifically, being in the music program and having had experience with, with music programs at other places, I couldn't really ask for much more than I have here as far as resources. And along with resources, just the people that are here, they're just the greatest people anywhere here. There's some idiots too, but there's some really fantastic people here. And I love the experience of community that goes on here. In spite of some pretty serious ideological divisions or differences, I feel that there's still an overriding sense of community and mutual respect and love and encouragement for each other within the students and the faculty administration.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] So wonderful experience?

John Kovalenko [00:08:03] Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. There have been some little details, bumps along the road, but in general I haven't really had much to complain about, which I wasn't expecting. I thought I was going to have a lot to complain about.

Navigating Sexual Identity and the BYU Honor Code

John Dehlin [00:08:14] So are there any areas where you struggled or felt out of place or ostracized or alienated as a companion to the wonderful experience you've had?

John Kovalenko [00:08:25] Well, yes and no. Part of my unorthodox experience, especially before coming to byu, was having experimented with several same sex relationships. That's definitely one of the big taboos right now and an issue that's hot for a lot of people. For me personally, I've had personal struggles since I've been here. But as I found that through my honesty with myself and with friends, professors, religious leaders also, that I've been able to come to a really healthy sort of place of reconciliation for myself that I haven't experienced a blatant or outright ostracism. But I think that it would also be. It would be foolish for me to say that I haven't experienced or that there isn't any kind of ostracism that comes with being in my position just because it comes with the territory a little bit. This year, since there was a change to the honor code last year stating that sexual, sexual orientation was not an honor code issue, I've kind of felt a little bit liberated by that, at least in my ability to be verbal with people. About the issue,

John Dehlin [00:09:57] what was it before in the honor code? Did it say anything or was it just.

John Kovalenko [00:10:00] It was a really kind of. There was some really vague language that made it extremely ambiguous and confusing for a lot of people. It said something to the effect that any behaviors, any behavior, including behaviors non sexual in nature that implied any sort of condoning of homosexuality at all was bad. And I mean, like, I don't even know what that means. Like that could mean anything to me, like breathing or any. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] So the changes have been really positive so far.

John Kovalenko [00:10:34] I think that any change or specification with regard to the issue and just frankly, any recognition or acknowledgement of the issue is positive in my view.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] So have you been able to be open with your classmates, peers, friends about. I know you don't like labels, so I don't know how you refer to asexuality.

John Kovalenko [00:10:57] Right. And I have kind of, you know, I don't identify with any one camp that definitely this is, this is where I feel most strongly about that. I feel that actually the labeling that I grew up with going to school in Utah, the labeling that was imposed upon me was extremely destructive to my own sense of identification.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Just. You're either gay or you're not.

John Kovalenko [00:11:20] Well, yeah, being called gay so much like on such a constant basis. Really, you were or. Oh, I was definitely. I mean, I was. I mean, I was called fag all the time and I went in high school in Provo. I was pushed downstairs, had food thrown at me. I was called names all the time. And that was before I'd even gone through my own process of questioning or anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] So, I mean, so it's just people made assumptions.

John Kovalenko [00:11:42] Yeah, because it sounds. I was in theater, I did music, you know, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] So you were.

John Kovalenko [00:11:48] I was targeted that way. But since I had the opportunity to go away from here and to deal with my. My personal issues and my spiritual issues and really confront those things for myself in as authentic a way as possible. I think that since I've come here that that's given me some really valuable resources for having a kind of self confidence. So I've been free to talk with whoever I felt that it was appropriate to talk with about it without reservation. I haven't really had to encounter a great deal of fear while here, though. I know many, many individuals that live still in a constant state of fear and anxiety about their roommates, the community, the religion at large.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] They don't feel they can be as open as you.

John Kovalenko [00:12:42] No, they can't talk about it at all.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] Why? What's the difference?

John Kovalenko [00:12:46] Well, why can't you do nothing? One reason is probably the fact that I don't think that my sexuality is anything. However it is, is not something that I have to apologize for. There are certainly understandings that have to be come to if one is going to choose to accept the church's doctrinal positions about sexuality and about marriage. Definitely have to. To come to some sort of personal reconciliation with that.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] But.

John Kovalenko [00:13:22] But I think that the culture and the religion has conditioned people to despise, to loathe, to view as it. As an abomination, as some sort of disease or deviance. And for me, I don't experience myself that way. And so I don't. I don't have any. I don't feel like I have anything to apologize for because, I mean, God and I know where I stand and that's what really matters. And, you know, I have to make certain kinds of choices about what I'm gonna do or not do. But as far as who I am and the kinds of feelings that I have, I don't apologize for any of that. But there are a lot of people who feel inherently or innately sinful and isolated in their condition.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] How do you personally reconcile your belief in God with this disposition or. I don't know, what do you. How would you. I want to make sure I characterize it. Your nature. What's that?

John Kovalenko [00:14:27] No, I kind of just think of myself as a flexible individual.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] With your flexibility? No, but I mean, you have to. With the doctrinal implications, with the statements from. From people in the past. You have to sort of, if you believe in a God and that in some way he's in control and leading the church or its doctrine or its people, you have to ask, or even just what's in the Bible? You have to say, why am I this way and in this faith believing in you when there's such dissonance or potential dissonance between how I was created. I assume you feel you were created this way, and what the prevailing prejudices or biases or doctrines are. How do you reconcile those?

John Kovalenko [00:15:14] Well, first, it is just the understanding and acknowledgement that I am created by God, that I am his child, and that he loves me as a child of God and as his creation, that my destiny is to have joy and to be able to become like him if I choose to. So knowing that from step one is extremely crucial, I think. And then these kinds of things turn into details for me once a certain perspective is reached. I think that for me Personally, my experiences with my sexuality have been difficult, but have been wholly positive as far as they have allowed me to see, to reach and to feel with people past societal boundaries, to be able to really connect to some pure spaces of compassion and love. And I feel that I've been granted a little bit of a glimpse into a kind of real Christ like love through that. And then, you know, the details get complicated sometimes. But then I also feel that maybe I'm going out a little bit on a limb here. This is just my personal opinion, but very much like the blacks in the church during the civil rights movement were kind of a lesson for the church, you know, pre Revelation one, still post. It's kind of a very specific sort of lesson in teaching our people about tolerance and about love and what this oneness that we talk about as far as Zion is concerned, what that's really about. And I think that this kind of phenomenon of homosexuality in the church, which seems to be escalating now at this time, seems to be just the right lesson for our people to be getting right now. Because I think that it's getting at some of the deepest places of resistance to that opening into that love where some of the most basic, most basic fears and prejudices lie. And so by confronting and overcoming this obstacle, I think we'll radically progress our people when they're finally able to understand what love is actually about.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] So do you have a vision for the church? Let me ask you two things. Well, first of all, if you could counsel parents of a child with same sex attraction, friends or members of a ward with someone with the same sex attraction, you know, what are the thoughts or the feelings you would try and convey to build an environment that's more welcoming, that's more Christlike?

John Kovalenko [00:18:24] Well, first of all, it's got to be about the love. It's got to be about the fact that they are extremely cherished by God. Even if they decide to break all of the commandments, they are still loved by Him. They're still a child of God. And somehow this doesn't. Some people just don't seem to be grasping that within themselves and kind of get involved in some sort of spiritual or emotional masochism, feeling inherently contrary to what he's created. So, and it's understandable why people would feel that way since, you know, this proclamation to the family, you know, man and woman, this is what our church is built on, despite some, you know, historical discrepancies about that issue as well, which I think can be applicable in this case. But let Me see, I. That's such a. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] So a sense of divine worth. Make sure people feel loved.

John Kovalenko [00:19:43] Divine worth and then feeling like they don't have to be ashamed to feel things or to talk about things. I think that this particular problem is exacerbated so so much by the fact that there's just this barrier of silence that is there. And that silence drives people into madness over it, to hyper fixation, to suicide. We have so many cases of that with young people in our church that have taken their own lives because they just didn't have an outlet. So creating a dialogue, let's talk about this. Let's keep. Get it out in the open and be able to say certain kinds of words and terms and not have to feel uncomfortable about them because they're socially taboo. And then there are plenty of resources for different routes. There's the evergreen route, there's affirmation. There are lots of different ways, ideological routes for people to go. But I think that for people to recognize that first, they're loved. Second, they're not alone because there's so many going through this and that see that there are resources available for them and there are communities that are reaching out to these individuals.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] How do you envision your future? There are some friends I have who are frustrated with the recent pamphlet on same sex attraction. And they sort of get the feeling that the message that's being conveyed is if you have same sex attraction, you're just going to have to pony up and realize that you're going to have a life without the type of intimacy that most humans demand or need. Is that fair? Is that not fair? And then as you envision your life, what are sort of some of the options that you've entertained for how you might keep the faith that you have but still live a life of joy and meaning?

John Kovalenko [00:21:59] Right. Well, I, along with my detestation of labeling and boxes, I really resist the extremes of. There are basically two options that seem to be presented a person dealing with this. Either you pony up and you deny yourself that kind of intimacy that we seem to all need on some level and therefore be denying a crucial, critical part of one's identity, or deny another crucial part of one's identity, which is the one that's caught up in the institution, the church, and, you know, just abandon it all. And I just don't think that either of those has. I don't think that that's, that's necessary to do either of those things. For me, I feel like I Have a bit more flexibility as far as my future than many friends of mine as I. I'm interested in women and I intend to continue to pursue relationships with women. And I very much desire a family and I appreciate heterosexual intimacy. However, for me, I think that the real key is not in denying of this other part, but it's in an understanding of that part and an embracing of it within a context that still is able to resonate with the doctrines of the gospel. So I have many, many very close and intimate relationships with male friends in which sexuality is not a component. But I feel that a lot of those basic sorts of needs are able to be found, met, healed, and that I'm able to be honest with those feelings and be able to express them in a healthy way, that I'm able to feel safe. And I think that this is something that's just going to have to take time in other cultures where just intimacy between members of the same sex that's not sexual is much more accepted than it is within our culture.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] Hugs or kisses on the cheeks, hugs,

John Kovalenko [00:24:19] things like that, you know, and here it's just the, not just the feeling, but it's built into the rhetoric of the youth, is built in a discrimination and a homophobia. I think that that really is at play here. So that fear and that distancing that is placed, you know, girls around, you know, in apartments all around, you know, the one roommate gets dumped, the roommates rally around that girl and they're cuddling with her with a box of tissue and their ice cream while watching, you know, some chick flick, romantic comedy or something. You know, like there's some guys that, you know, kind of maybe need a little bit more attention like that maybe without the chick flick or whatever. But you get the point that there's just a basic human connection that is missing in male to male relationships in our culture.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Yeah. And the gay men that I've talked to who are married or in a long term same sex relationship say that sexuality is only one. And they would even sometimes say small component of the intimacy and the attraction that they share with their partner. Is that kind of what you're saying?

John Kovalenko [00:25:40] Yeah. And for me, I experienced through my, you know, my unorthodox journeyings that it really wasn't about the sexual aspect that was even driving me to be with them in the first place.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] That was other things, emotional friendship.

John Kovalenko [00:25:56] It turned out to be very unfulfilling for me, which I was grateful to have experienced so I can kind of know myself better that way. But then it Opened up new questions for me then. What is this that I need? What is this that I'm feeling now?

John Dehlin [00:26:10] You're aware that for many years the church just advised gay men, don't tell your wife, don't tell your fiance, just get married. It'll go away. And 10, 20 years down the road, carnage for children, for the loved ones. So I hear you saying that you're open to the possibility of marrying a woman and having children. And do you worry about the risks or the, you know, that it could end up in that way too, or how do you.

John Kovalenko [00:26:37] Well, I certainly don't worry about it ending up in the way that it's like a, you know, a veil of silence that's creating that, you know, that energy that just builds up over time that leads to madness. I think that that's, I mean, anybody that I would date, I mean, that would be one of the first things that they would know about me. I have nothing to hide there. And so those stories are really awful. Of course I have certain kinds of concerns, but right now I'm trying in my relationships with my friends and my dating relationships to try to work on these dynamics and find ways to feel completely balanced with these needs. So I think that it would be a lot more, I guess, dangerous for me. I mean, it would be a lot less true to myself, I should say, to be, to go off and be in only same sex partnerships or partnership. It would be a lot less true to me than to be with a woman in a marriage. So. But with these. I think that advice to keep that from the partner is, makes me really sad because no matter what the challenge is, when two people get married, they're really, I mean, there's, there's some really significant sorts of roles that are being played in that relationship. And I think that, you know, that Christ kind of comes in there and can be there as far as, you know, bearing each other's burdens and that kind of thing. So I think that's really imperative that. I mean, I have gay friends who are married to women. Some have been extremely unsuccessful and some they're still going, they're working on it. But I find that the ones that are more successful, the ones where it's more open and that they're working on it together rather than it's just this secret sort of struggle of the one person.

Hopes for the Church and Personal Testimony

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Do you have a hope or a vision for the future of the church in terms of 10, 20, 50 hundred years? Yeah, sort of a Martin Luther King. I've been to the mountaintop and here's what I see. What do you see?

John Kovalenko [00:29:02] I do see something. I don't think that I don't. I think it's completely unrealistic to expect the doctrines concerning eternal marriage to change. I think that's just not going to happen. But what I think could happen and what needs to happen is a level of understanding to be reached within the communities of the church. First within the ward communities and then, I don't know how ecclesiastically this would trickle down, but, but I envision a time when people who have chosen to lead a same sex relationship lifestyle but still want to be participating members in the church can find a place within the community. They can come and be embraced by the ward and can sing in the choir and can participate in the community of Christ as Christians and as Mormons. And you know, I guess then we can say that they're just opting to take that lower road for themselves by denying themselves the ultimate celestial promises. But I think that it's entirely unchristian to say because you have chosen this lower road for yourself in the next life, we are going to also cut off your road in this life and not even allow you to be here.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] So they should feel welcome, have callings, feel like full participants in the ward experience and the church experience.

John Kovalenko [00:30:47] Full. I can't say to like how full. But you know, at least let's let them be members of the community at the table. At the table. Like come to church please.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Right now.

John Kovalenko [00:30:59] Maybe that's, it's not, let's be honest,

John Dehlin [00:31:03] what's the gay experience right now for someone who's just.

John Kovalenko [00:31:06] Oh well, it's very, very, very, very marginalized. So I mean people that are open about it, I think that whether or not they are externally driven away, feel compelled to go. They just can't to go away from the church. They can't stay. Maybe that's just because of their feelings of guilt because it really is so sinful what's going on and they just can't stay in that presence. But I think more than that is just the underwriting sort of sentiment and energy about the issue and the general attitude of intolerance that's there. That, that, I mean is always there, whether it's being spoken or not. And those people feel that. And you can feel, I mean I can definitely feel gazes sometimes when I'm in church.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] And you feel like they're losing out by not being able to maintain their affiliation.

John Kovalenko [00:32:06] Absolutely. I mean, because it's a matter, it's a matter of like Pieces of an identity. People who've grown up in the church identify with the church. It's a part of who they are. Even if they don't even agree with it, you can't deny the fact that it's still a part of you. And to be driven away because your own nature, something that you feel is not changeable, that was not chosen and that was potentially given to you by God, is then, like, cause for you to be then driven away from God. It just a very massive inner context.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Do you feel like the church is missing out by not having them?

John Kovalenko [00:32:47] Absolutely. I mean, I think that the stereotypes hold true in such a majority of cases that the homosexuals tend to be, in general, more artistically sensitive, spiritually sensitive, emotionally sensitive people, and that they. They know a lot about love that the church could learn from.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Two last questions. Is it a fixed thing in your mind that a homosexual who decides to engage in the church fully, but who chooses, as you say, this lesser path, Is it a fixed thing in your mind that in heaven it will be a lesser path? That's their destiny?

John Kovalenko [00:33:33] No, I don't think we. I don't think we know really about that. I mean, we say we do, but I don't think we do. We don't know what it's really gonna be like. Like, we can just. It's guesswork from here on. And I think that we've been given some very good guidelines as far as how to set ourselves on the kind of path that we want to be on. But I don't think that things are so black and white.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] So it's not necessarily a lower path in the eternities.

John Kovalenko [00:33:59] Um, I. I mean, I have to say that I kind of think that that whole notion of man and woman creating this kind of perfect balance is, like, a good idea. It seems to work. So, I mean, I. I believe in that kind of. That kind of ideal and that kind of relationship. It's not really for me to say that that's. That another person who isn't persuaded that way can't also fulfill the measure of their creation.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Final question. What are the pillars of your testimony?

John Kovalenko [00:34:34] First thing is that. Not only is God, but that God truly loves me. That I know more surely than anything else. And that's what it always comes back to when there are problems. I believe in God's love. I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe, and I know that God's love is extended in such a way that I'm able to overcome my weaknesses and have the potential to fulfill the measure of my creation. I believe that every human being, being a child of God and being the same kind of being, therefore that God is, has the divine inalienable right to personal communion with the divine. And I'm kind of, kind of moving towards this thought too, that the personal revelation trumps ecclesiastical revelation. I believe that. I think I'm starting to move that direction. But I also believe that part of my testimony certainly is in prophets and that God has chosen mouthpieces to see speak to his people, and that that process continues today. I don't know to what extent that continues today, but I have a testimony enough of that basic process that I still listen. And yeah, the Book of Mormon, it's good. I don't know. I don't, frankly, I don't even care if it's historical right now. I don't even care if it's historical, if it's historical or not, because it resonates with me and my soul. And so that's all I need. Love, love. It's all about love. It's all about unity. Like all these details about churches and things are going to fall away in the end anyway. I think it's all about love. That's my testimony.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] Any final thoughts on Sunstone or dialogue? Its goodness, its badness? Is it necessary? Oh, yeah.

John Kovalenko [00:37:00] I wrote a book.

John Dehlin [00:37:01] It shouldn't go away.

John Kovalenko [00:37:04] What did I say? Can I read this? Sure. Let me see if I even put this in coherent thought. Oh yeah. This was in response to the, you know, whether having a forum, you know, of openness is a positive thing. I'll just read this little thing that I wrote here. While fault finding and dissent are not intrinsically constructive activities, I think that a forum allowing for the acknowledgement of incongruities or concerns not only unifies the community on principles of honesty and mutual earnestness of truth seeking, but it also validates the points which are agreed upon, allowing for a strengthening of the basic principles and allowing for a more realistic progression of individuals and communities, as well as a facilitating of a tangible kind of reconciliation with, which brings members closer to God, to each other, and ultimately to themselves as individuals who are having a decidedly unique experience.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] So the Sunday experience, three hour block. Would you say that for some people they need more?

John Kovalenko [00:38:16] Yes. Yeah, well, I think that we all need more than that. I mean, we're supposed to gather together oft, you know, three hours on Sunday is not enough for any church person. There's so much more than Sunday. So Sunstone, while it has its challenges and I've seen a lot of those challenges in my own family has been a positive force for me in my life, as my first symposium that I ever attended was the summer before, just prior to my transfer to byu, at which time I had a lot of fear and anxiety about coming here and what kinds of challenges and scenarios I might meet. But I found Sunstone to be extremely encouraging, embracing, validating and stimulating to me on all of those levels where I had concerns.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] So thumbs up.

John Kovalenko [00:39:18] Oh absolutely. Community.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.