Introduction to the Early Return Missionary Series

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's August 3, 2016, and I am so super excited to launch a new podcast series, Mormon Stories. This series is going to be focusing on the missionary experience in the modern LDS Church. I'm sort of, at first, at least targeting the first, let's just say the past three to five years. So kind of mission in the 2010s in the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] I'm really interested to know how the church's release of the essays, how the church's open discussion of controversial issues has been affecting missionaries or not. I'm interested in understanding the church's use of technology on missions and social media.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] And I'm also interested in what missionaries are experiencing when they have a faith crisis on their mission. But also for missionaries who have faith crises or who get sick, what it's like to come home early from a mission and how the church deals with that.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] If possible, I also want to extend this series to be about people who get sick on their missions or depressed or mental illness and how that affects the missionary service as well. But for starters, we're going to be really targeting faith crisis and early mission return.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] So, having said all that, I think it's super fitting to begin this series with a missionary that. A returned missionary that many in the Mormon Stories community will know. His name is Josh or Joshua Tesch. Is that how I pronounce it?

Josh Tesch [00:01:57] That is yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] And I don't know the date, so we're gonna have to. You're gonna have to remind me, but a few years ago, Tesch and his. And his friend or companion who was.

Josh Tesch [00:02:10] Was a companion.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Are we saying his name?

Josh Tesch [00:02:14] Probably not.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Okay. They showed up on the Mormon Stories podcast community and started discussing CES letter and their doubts and their experiences with their mission president, with everyone who was, you know, on the Mormon Stories podcast, podcast, Facebook group. And the mission president found out about, I think, their engagement in the group, and it became a real interesting thing. So, Josh, I'm super excited to have you join us for our first episode of this series on Mormon Stories.

Josh Tesch [00:02:51] All right, I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] All right, so just real quick to finish the intro. We're going to be interviewing lots of different people, men and women, different areas of the world, gay and straight people who lost their faith on their mission, people who came home early, people who lost their faith but stayed on their mission and finished it and then came out afterwards.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] You know, people who were held back or delayed or sent home for sexual misconduct. We're going to be covering all that kind of stuff in this series. We've never quite done a series that's going to be this extensive before on Mormon stories. The only one that I can think of maybe would be the one we did on feminism, like many, many, probably eight, nine years ago. But anyway, without any further ado, let's launch into it. So I've got a bunch of questions that, that I've prepared and we're not going to be doing five, six hour interviews. I'm going to try and get these interviews within an hour if possible.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] If they go a little bit over, that's great. But you guys can all expect us to try and do these more shortly. And then we're going to try and capture video as often as we can. This one is on YouTube. There will be some missionaries who are at BYU or BYU Idaho returned missionaries who we won't be able to capture what they look like, but. But we'll capture as many in video as we can.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] So. And I want to thank Exmormon, Reddit and Facebook for helping us find so many return missionaries to be a part of this series. So I'll just say that up front. All right, Josh Tesch, tell us just a tiny bit about, like one minute on your upbringing in the church prior to your mission.

Growing Up Mormon and Preparing for a Mission

Josh Tesch [00:04:39] So I was born and raised within the church. I was born in Ogden, raised in Layton, and I was excited to be a member of the church. Most of my friends were lds. My closest friends weren't, however, and I went to seminary, graduated seminary, was excited to go on a mission. That was, that was the thing I was supposed to do. And I was super excited about it and couldn't do a lot of things until after my mission, like seriously date girls, as my parents would say, or, you know, do adult things. Because that was supposed to be like the beginning of the rest of my life, was serving my mission and then coming home. And I look forward to it. It was, there was a lot of anticipation coming to my call and I was eventually called to the California Roseville Mission and departed beginning of February in 2013.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] Okay, so California Roseville. I'm going to write that down. Roseville. And it's 2013. Okay. So that's, yeah. Right around the time the essays were being released. It was after CES letter was released. If I've got my dates right. Did you have any doubts prior to your mission? Did you have any faith crises at all?

Josh Tesch [00:06:01] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] Had you been exposed to any of

Josh Tesch [00:06:03] the difficult Mormon history I had before I left on my mission. I was just looking at videos on YouTube and I glanced upon a few things and it made me feel bad inside. So I knew, of course, I was a spirit telling me to back away.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Do you remember what those things were?

Josh Tesch [00:06:21] Yeah, it was from. I forget. The film. The super controversial God makers, Godmakers. I saw, like a part of the animated part, and I saw the part where God the Father, like, opens the door and is going to go have intimacies with Mary. And I'm like, what the heck is that? I don't know what that's all about. And so I had that in my mind when I went on my mission, but other than that, there wasn't really anything.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] And had you heard of John de Lynn or Mormon stories or Kate Kelly or any of that stuff? Hadn't even heard of it, no. Okay, good. And, you know, had you known that Joseph Smith had 30 wives? Had you known.

Josh Tesch [00:07:02] I didn't know that the number was 30. There was. I don't know if you're familiar with living scriptures. My dad worked for them for over 20 years. And we had these tapes that went over Joseph Smith history, and one of them mentioned, I think it was Eliza Snow and how she was called to be one of one of Joseph's wives. Am I getting this right? That sounds okay. And, yeah, it was like an audio play and it mentioned it. And I was listening to it with my mom in the car and she's like, you know, Joseph had several wives. Right. And I'm like, yeah, I guess. And that was always said. That's all he said about it. And I didn't know to the extent and exactly what was happening. I don't know if she does, but.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] And the historical problems of the Book of Mormon you hadn't thought about? No. The Book of Abraham, stuff you probably didn't know about?

Josh Tesch [00:07:54] No, it seemed irrelevant. I knew that there was no historical. Like, there was no artifacts found for the Book of Mormon, but it seemed irrelevant to me because, you know, God is all powerful. He can make whatever has to happen to people's faith, you know.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] So you go to the MTC in Provo, I'm assuming. When did the cracks first start to form for you?

Josh Tesch [00:08:21] Oh, wow. Really? It was 18 months into my mission.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Okay. Before that, then, had the church. What. What was the church's use of social media, Internet technology while you were a missionary? Had that started yet or had that not started yet? Were the iPads being used?

Josh Tesch [00:08:43] No, there was rumor that it was going to Happen, but nothing confirmed. It was just around the age change. So there were a ton of young sisters and younger elders that were there, and I was one of the first groups that was only there for two weeks at the MTC, and it was 10 days. And.

Josh Tesch [00:09:06] Yeah. So just eventually it was announced that we were going to have iPads. And then soon after, we were told that we were going to have Facebook. And when it was announced at a zone meeting, it was a tri zone meeting. There was a whole bunch of missionaries there.

Josh Tesch [00:09:26] Our mission president had announced it, and he's like, are any of you familiar with Facebook at all? And I'm like, I'm pretty good at Facebook. Raise my hand. And he's like, elitesh, talk to me afterwards. So my mission president ended up having me be one of the tech missionaries, where I would learn the programs, how the iPads worked, and would help people download the security settings and make sure everything was set, and then actually hand out iPads like Oprah at all these different zone meetings. It's pretty great.

iPads, Facebook, and Technology on the Mission

John Dehlin [00:10:00] So how many months in your mission did Facebook and the iPads start coming into play?

Josh Tesch [00:10:06] It would have been just after a year.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] Okay, so we're definitely into 2014 by the time the iPads are distributed and Facebook is brought online. And you were one of the. So what was it like to lock those iPads down? What did you have to do to lock them down?

Josh Tesch [00:10:24] So they were actually shipped to us with a few settings inside. I don't remember a lot of the details, but we were supposed to have a special login for each of the missionaries, and then they would download all the blocks that would. That would end up on the iPads. And you wouldn't be able to get into the missionary Planner app unless you had all those blocks and everything which you needed to do to report your numbers and plan things.

Josh Tesch [00:10:59] There were ways to get around it. I wasn't interested in getting around them until my faith crisis. Honestly, there were several missionaries around me who would do that. And, yeah, I mean, as we all know, whoever served a mission, we all know that there are disobedient missionaries. And this kind of just opened the gates to a clash of clans.

Josh Tesch [00:11:25] People wasting time. Yeah, we could really get any sort of information through ibooks. Like, if I had a PDF, I could download it through ibooks and read it on that. That's how I got a lot of my information as far as research goes into the church. And about three months into.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Okay, wait, wait, wait, real quick. So missionaries could play Clash of Clans if they wanted to.

Josh Tesch [00:11:54] Yeah. Yeah. You had to go into settings and delete a few things, and the mission president would often be notified. But sometimes people were able to figure out a way to get around that, and they were able to. There was a whole underground clan and Clash of Clans. CRM mission.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] So your mission had its own clan.

Josh Tesch [00:12:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] Of missionaries playing clash of Clans.

Josh Tesch [00:12:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] What were other of the most common ways missionaries would be disobedient? With their iPads?

Josh Tesch [00:12:31] Really?

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Could they look at porn?

Josh Tesch [00:12:35] Some. Good. Yeah, some did. One was sent home because he was getting. He was getting images from his girlfriend. And, yeah, that was pretty hard on him.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] And so I would have just assumed they would have made these things impenetrable so that you couldn't email home, you couldn't chat with anybody, you couldn't Skype with anybody. You couldn't do anything other than, like, look at your scriptures, you know, look at investigator stuff. Maybe go to lds.org.

Josh Tesch [00:13:05] there were only a few apps that were approved, as well as websites. But like I said, people found ways to get around them because it was a new program, and millennials are pretty smart in that regard. We were able to figure it out. And I've heard several missions have pulled out. Facebook have even pulled out iPads because of the issues. We were really.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Remove them. You mean remove them. Yeah.

Josh Tesch [00:13:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] Okay. That's hilarious. Okay, so you were starting to tell us three months in. Is that.

Josh Tesch [00:13:39] Yeah, three months into having our iPads, we approved Facebook. I'm not really sure on the timeline there, but we could get on Facebook. And we were allowed to. We were told only to contact investigators. And most missionaries would. Would create new Facebooks because if you use your old one, you had to hide or delete everything that you had before your mission because you wouldn't look like a missionary. And I created a new one because I didn't want to do that. And we weren't allowed to, of course, contact anybody who was at home, but people would often.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] So would you friend people from home when you created your new account, or were you not supposed to?

Josh Tesch [00:14:28] I was. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You were allowed to. If it was relatives who could. They would share your stuff. You would never chat with them.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] Yeah, because I could just see, like, your cousin saying, dude, you know, Josh, how's it going? You know, that kind of thing.

Josh Tesch [00:14:44] Yeah, it never happened to me. I'm sure it happened a lot of other missionaries because my family's very traditional. And honestly, I didn't want to make do that because it would look bad.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] So you were super obedient.

Josh Tesch [00:14:58] Yes, I was very obedient. And until 18 months in.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] And again, you mentioned this, but your mission president would have this sort of centralized app where whatever people were doing on their iPads, it would notify him.

Josh Tesch [00:15:13] Yeah. There was one time later in my mission when I had downloaded an unapproved app, and he called us right away and visited us in our apartment. And. And it was crazy.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Wow, that's intense. That's super intense, right?

Josh Tesch [00:15:31] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] Okay. Okay. So talk to us about your. How social media changed things for you. I guess

Josh Tesch [00:15:43] so it was pretty effective in ways to really just kind of get a background on potential. Potential investigators, less actives, to kind of understand where they were and interact with them in that way.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] So when you track somebody out, you would ask for their Facebook profile and then kind of Facebook stalk them or what?

Josh Tesch [00:16:05] Yeah, yeah. Like anybody does, you know?

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Would you friend your investigators?

Josh Tesch [00:16:12] Then friend them and we get to know them better and they'd get to know us better, at least as far as we were as missionaries, because we'd only be able to post things that were mission approved.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] Nice.

Josh Tesch [00:16:30] Sorry. We were allotted an hour a day to be on social media. People would usually go to the church buildings where they had WI fi and contact and contact investigators or whatever through Facebook, try and set things up that way.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Okay, that makes sense. Cool. So talk to us about when things started cracking for you.

Discovering the CES Letter and Losing Faith Mid-Mission

Josh Tesch [00:16:59] Okay. So about 18 months in, I was in Oroville and I had. My companion, frankly, was pretty lazy. Sorry. If you're listening to this, buddy, we both know it's true. And I had kind of lost hope. Like, okay, this isn't worth it anymore. So I was on Facebook and I'm like, I want to be busy. What had lost hope I had because we couldn't. He wouldn't want to leave the apartment. And when we were out, I was new to the area, and he's like, well, I don't know where to go. I'm like, well, you should know because you've been here a few months, and we would do what we could. Tracting wasn't a. Wasn't common at all.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Okay. Wasn't tracking de emphasized once Facebook was emphasized?

Josh Tesch [00:17:47] Yeah, it didn't really work.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] I think the church did some. Some studies and determined that tracting was horribly inefficient. And when they. Well, I remember when Elder Perry, I think, launched the iPad program, he said as much that tracking is the way of the past. So, okay, so you were discouraged about how hard it was to proselytize in California.

Josh Tesch [00:18:12] Yeah. Yeah. And so I decided, okay, well, we're gonna. We're gonna bunker down, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna proselytize on Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] And so more than the approved hour.

Josh Tesch [00:18:22] Right, right. And I went to an evangelical group on Facebook with me and my companion were both doing it, and I literally said, knock, knock. It's missionaries. Have any questions for us? I know it's a little bold to be doing that, but I thought it'd be fun. And we ended up chatting to a whole bunch of different people, and they brought up issues that I wasn't familiar with. And I'm like, okay, this is a good opportunity for me to understand the things that pop up every now and then throughout the mission.

Josh Tesch [00:18:58] And so I would do research on that, ask my companion. And then eventually, the CES letter came up. They're like, download this and read it. I'm like, all right. I'm a. I have a rock solid testimony. This won't hurt me. And so I ended up reading it, and, like, in one night, and I was crying by the end of it. I'm like, what about what I do?

Josh Tesch [00:19:21] I don't know how to handle this. And I was really afraid to really talk to anybody about it. I talked to it a bit with my competitor.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] What were some of the things in the CES letter that really hit you hard? Do you remember?

Josh Tesch [00:19:38] A big thing, really? Just that I didn't know about these things was big to me, and that I had been taught this one narrative and hadn't heard my whole life. You know, I'm being taught these things, and I never heard specifics about the Book of Mormon. I'd never heard. I never heard about some of the general authorities and the things that they have done about the. The plagiarized letters with Gordon B. Hinckley Hoffman.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Mark Hoffman, Yeah.

Josh Tesch [00:20:14] Mark Hoffman, Yeah. And it was just. I felt betrayed, and not only by my church, but kind of by my family because my parents are smart. People feel like that they would have talked to me about it to some degree.

Josh Tesch [00:20:33] Anyways, I didn't really tell anybody about it. I talked to my companion a little bit until my next companion came. I told him straight up. I'm like, dude, I don't even know if I believe in this stuff because I've took a major hit in my testimony. It's hard for me to go out.

Josh Tesch [00:20:54] Is there anything we can do? He's like, you know what? I've also had some issues with it, and so we were able to talk a little bit about that, but it was kind of a taboo topic. But, yeah, it was pretty low point. I didn't want to talk to my family. I. I made it look like I was productive.

Josh Tesch [00:21:14] I'd still meet people and I would still be friends with the members, and we'd have a good time. But as far as baptisms go and whatnot, we weren't very successful in that regard. But I kept the hype up when I was sending emails to my family just to make them think everything was all right. And eventually I was transferred out.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] So you were kind of misleading your family.

Josh Tesch [00:21:41] Yeah, I was. I didn't feel comfortable asking them. I don't know. I don't know. It could just be that we've never had that kind of relationship to be able to discuss these things. I don't really know what it is still. But eventually we posted in Mormon Stories Podcast Community.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] How'd you find that? How'd you find Mormon Stories?

Josh Tesch [00:22:05] It was actually. So after I had read the CES letter, I was looking online to try and find retorts to some of these things, and I found your video. That was Reasons why There are Doubters within the church. I don't know what it's titled. It was one of your first ones,

John Dehlin [00:22:22] I think there's White People Leave the Church and How We Can Help. And then there was Top Five Myths and Truths about why People Leave the Church. Those are the videos.

Josh Tesch [00:22:31] Yeah, I watched those, and they helped me a lot because I was able to find a community where it was Mormon Stories Podcast community. And I would observe and comment every now and then. And then it was the next General conference when my companion had joined, and he just straight up posted on the wall of the group, and that's when everything blew up. And I guess somebody from the group had called our mission president and outed us for being on that group.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Now, are we using his name, that other missionary companion?

Josh Tesch [00:23:07] No.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Okay.

Josh Tesch [00:23:08] No, I don't feel comfortable doing that.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] Okay. And, yes, I'm sure it was someone from fair. I'm sure someone from Fair Mormon called your mission president, right?

Josh Tesch [00:23:19] Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But somebody called him. Somebody contacted him, and our mission president called us soon after and said that he needed to talk to us and that he was going to come by. And then we downloaded that illegal app and he came up and talked to us about Bulls.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Can you tell us what the app is or is that. Is it.

Josh Tesch [00:23:44] Oh, it was Terraria. It's just a stupid game and we got really bored being of faith deprived missionaries. And I'm kind of embarrassed to say that now.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] At some point, I think I had a phone call with one of you. Is that right?

Josh Tesch [00:24:05] Yeah, yeah. You talked to him.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Was that you or the other missionary or both of you?

Josh Tesch [00:24:08] That was me.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] What was that? Was that helpful? What do you remember about that?

Josh Tesch [00:24:15] It was helpful at the time for sure. And yeah, so our mission president talked with us and he got after us for playing basketball when we shouldn't have been. And apparently my companion wasn't feeling very good, so he kind of let him off the hook. But then he talked to me about the being on that being on mspc and he said that that's not okay, that I'm not allowed to do that and that I was that. He took away my iPad. So I didn't have an iPad for a while until I went to my next area.

Josh Tesch [00:24:50] Eventually he gave it back. I was a district leader when I went to my last area and a lot closer to where the mission president lives. And eventually I got my iPad back and I did a little bit of stuff on mspc, but really just did independent research. I was able to contact several people. I got rough stone rolling, which I read a big chunk of you get

John Dehlin [00:25:20] you in a PDF form.

Josh Tesch [00:25:23] Talked to several people. I talked to Rick, whose house I'm staying at right now. He was helpful and Allison Udall and a bunch of different people. And yeah, that was really, really helpful for me at the time. I didn't talk to my companion about it. And I changed my focus from teaching the gospel to serving, like doing service, which was really fun for me. I still have a very, very strong emphasis on service and serving other people, which I think partly because of my mission and that experience there, I had a great relationship with the ward mission leader and all the other people. It was a good time. My last semester, my last transfer, and eventually it came time for me to go home and I had a departing interview with my mission president and I

John Dehlin [00:26:16] told him, wait, really? I'm going to pause that. Did any of the essays, the gospel topic essays, come out while you're on your mission?

Josh Tesch [00:26:24] They did, actually. Near the beginning of my mission, I. I had stumbled upon it and I had used it several times to try and figure things out. They didn't have a lot of the major essays like the Seer Stone, and they may have had the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but they really had topics on anything. I really just used it for the search bar.

Josh Tesch [00:26:49] So I Could find things on faith or whatever I needed to teach about. But there were some that were more of the controversial issues. And I would teach as a district leader, I would tell people, hey, this resource is available. But in my last area is when the big ones were released, which were, if I remember right, it was the Seer Stone and polygamy, probably. Yeah. Polygamy was one of them. And I remember having a conversation just on the side with my ward mission leader. I told him that they were talking about the essays, the polygamy essays.

Josh Tesch [00:27:26] And they said. And I told them that I have this book called Rough Stone Rolling. I've heard it's really good. I'm not reading it now, but I've heard it's really good. And he says, yeah, my sister reads that, but I don't think that kind of stuff is important to look at.

Josh Tesch [00:27:43] We just don't have to focus on that. And I don't know. I feel like that's very consistent attitude that I see toward the issues where it's just. It's brushed off as something that's not important.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] These are not the droids you're looking for.

Josh Tesch [00:27:58] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] Okay, so. So the essays did come out while you're on your mission, but they weren't a big deal. People just kind of. People ignored them. Did you perceive that there are a lot of other missionaries in Faith Crisis, or did missionaries just never talk about it?

Josh Tesch [00:28:18] No, I really don't think there were a lot. There were a lot of missionaries who honestly weren't very obedient and weren't very active in the work, but they still somehow felt a connection to the church and the gospel and whatnot. But I don't know. I just felt for me, it was. It was either all or nothing where when I was a believer, I was all for it and continually working hard. When I wasn't, or at least in the gray area, I had a. Had a hard time pursuing that.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Were there any mission rules or practices that really bothered you?

Josh Tesch [00:29:05] I was kind of annoyed by the inability for us to teach people unless there was someone of the same sex in the room because we've had so many. Like one of my favorite people, my mission mom, her name's Nancy. We would go there all the time, and she'd make us cookies. We talked to her a lot, and she started from being scared of the missionaries and would hide behind the couch when they'd ring the doorbell to us actually teaching her. And she's become a really good personal friend. And when the Zone leaders would come Over. We wouldn't go over there because we could get in trouble because there wasn't always a male present when we were there. And it's just we had so many great experiences with female investigators that it's just a rule that I feel like one person ruined it for everybody. You know,

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Was there a heavy emphasis on numbers in your mission or not really. Were there any baptisms of people that weren't really qualified to be baptized? Any of that kind of shenanigan stuff?

Josh Tesch [00:30:23] I don't think there were really shenanigans, but there was an emphasis on numbers. It reflected on how hard you were working, really. If you had good numbers, at least. Lessons were an important number to look at, whereas baptisms were kind of a rarity, if you will. It was just an extra blessing to have a baptism every few weeks.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] So the average baptisms in your mission per month was about what?

Josh Tesch [00:30:55] In our whole mission, I couldn't tell you, but per missionary, our goal would be one, because we don't want to put zero. And I mean, there were times when there was times we'd have famine of zeros for several months and then sometimes we'd have five in a month.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] So you kind of averaged maybe 12 baptisms your entire mission kind of thing? Maybe.

Josh Tesch [00:31:20] No, no, because we had. We had almost 400 missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] No, no, no. Per missionary. Per missionary. Missionaries would get maybe 10 or 20 baptisms per mission.

Josh Tesch [00:31:31] I have 12 or 13 baptisms my whole mission.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Okay, and what percentage of those were sort of immigrants, people of low socioeconomic status versus like people with education, with degrees, that sort of thing?

Josh Tesch [00:31:50] Most of them are just middle class.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Okay, cool.

Josh Tesch [00:31:52] Middle class white people.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Nice. Okay, let's go back to. Let's say your. Your final interview with your mission president. Is that where we should go next before you go home?

Being Sent Home Early and Family Fallout

Josh Tesch [00:32:03] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] Okay.

Josh Tesch [00:32:05] Yeah. So I had my departing interview three weeks before I was supposed to go home. And I was supposed to fill out these papers that explains the most spiritual experience I had in my mission, my testimony of the gospel, something I've learned that was really valuable to me on my mission. I filled them out very honestly, where I described that I had some major issues with doctrines in the church and how I felt about it. And I had prayed and felt comfort in knowing that though I may give up on the church, I shouldn't give up on God.

Josh Tesch [00:32:48] And I had shared that in this paper. And my mission president read it in front of me and asked me, am I having doubts about the church? I told him straight up how I felt about things. And he told me, I'm sorry, Elitesh, but this may lead to you being sent home. And he said he wasn't sure. I'm gonna have to make a few calls, wasn't it?

John Dehlin [00:33:11] How far into your mission were you?

Josh Tesch [00:33:13] I had three weeks left.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] Sent home.

Josh Tesch [00:33:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] That's crazy.

Josh Tesch [00:33:19] Yeah, it is pretty crazy. And he said he had to talk to a few people. And I rode my bike home, told my companion what was up, and called my mission president when I got home. I told him when he talks to people about this, about my case, if you will, that I want to represent myself and I want to tell them what is going on instead of him.

Josh Tesch [00:33:41] And he's like, I don't even know what that means. And then the next morning, he called me and said that I was going home and that I had to call my parents. So we rode our bikes to the church, and I was in the room with my mission president just to make sure that I wouldn't say anything that wasn't true.

Josh Tesch [00:34:03] And in a five minute conversation, told my father that I no longer believed in the faith that he raised me in with my mission president sitting there. Yeah, it was pretty miserable.

John Dehlin [00:34:15] So did he send you home early?

Josh Tesch [00:34:17] Mm, I was sent home early.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Oh, dude. Like, three weeks to go.

Josh Tesch [00:34:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] And you could have just lied, but instead you were honest. And it sounds like he punished you for being honest.

Josh Tesch [00:34:30] Yeah, sure seems like that.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] So you didn't get an honorable release.

Josh Tesch [00:34:38] He phrased it released in the state of apostasy.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] Holy crap.

Josh Tesch [00:34:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] And you were still kind of maybe believing in God still?

Josh Tesch [00:34:51] Sure. I was just like, I need to put this on hold until I can really investigate it myself. After my mission,

John Dehlin [00:34:59] were you screwing around as a missionary? Were you?

Josh Tesch [00:35:02] No, we were doing work. We were serving people. We had this great, less active family. We were getting active again, and it was working really well. I helped my companion a lot. He had a really quiet trainer, and I was able to help him open up and get to know people more. And we were doing really well.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] How did that feel for you?

Josh Tesch [00:35:32] I had mixed emotions because part of me is like, all right, I'm being very honest about how I feel, and I feel like integrity is worth the price. But at the same time, it was a major betrayal because I had worked for this long on my mission. My parents had helped significantly in funding the mission, and I wasn't able to finish out. And I don't know, I definitely felt betrayed by my mission president. I feel like this is 100% a bad call on him that it would have solved, actually, a lot of issues if he would have just let me stay because it's caused major, major problems within my family. They feel very betrayed by me and what I've done, and it's a pretty sore spot still for them and for me.

John Dehlin [00:36:28] I'm so sorry, Josh.

Josh Tesch [00:36:30] It's all right. I'm feeling like I'm getting over it now. I've. I am not active at all.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] Okay, wait, let's not get there. Let's not get there yet.

Josh Tesch [00:36:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] So you. You get shipped home three weeks before your two years is up.

Josh Tesch [00:36:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Did he have any parting words that were particularly useful or hurtful or.

Josh Tesch [00:36:56] No, he just said he's very disappointed and sad that it's happening and said that I need to just continue to pray and seek after guidance.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] Did any of the missionaries comment about it at all? Did other missionaries find out other missionaries

Josh Tesch [00:37:15] in my district to talk to the mission president and said, this isn't right. Why are you doing this? And he's like. He told them that's what had to happen. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] Did any missionaries treat you badly, like you deserved it or like you were the problem? No.

Josh Tesch [00:37:33] Most of them. None of them really knew the details. There was a companionship that I was pretty close friends with, and I told them, this is why I'm going home. But my zone leaders didn't know. They just drove me, you know.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] So you weren't running around telling people about problems with the church?

Josh Tesch [00:37:50] My companion didn't even know, and I made a point not to do that because it's not my place really to talk about it with him.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] I'm sorry.

Josh Tesch [00:38:02] My mission president. And I told him that I. I've kept this to myself this whole time, and you shouldn't worry about me telling people.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] I'm so sorry, man.

Josh Tesch [00:38:15] It's all right. It's. It's over.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] That's super painful. Okay, so. So you get home, and then how are you received both by your family? Were people waiting for you at the airport?

Josh Tesch [00:38:33] Yeah, because it was super short notice. There were close extended family, and then my immediate family were all there.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Did they have the balloons and the posters and all that?

Josh Tesch [00:38:50] And everyone was excited to see me. We cried as we embraced each other. It was great. My dad told me when we hugged at the airport that we'll figure this out. Everything will be all right. And the next day, well, when we got home, I ended up talking to my parents privately and I explained some of the issues I was having, and they said, okay. You can stay here as long as you keep this to yourself.

Josh Tesch [00:39:21] I don't want you to be. We don't want you to be an issue for the kids because I have five younger siblings and they don't want me to affect their faith in any way. And soon after, I was released as a missionary the next day.

Josh Tesch [00:39:43] And, yeah, I gave my mom my missionary badge. And she was sad because she felt like I didn't want it for me, I don't know. I told her, this means a lot to you. I want you to have it. Although I had other ones, she felt like I was kind of. I didn't care about my mission experience, which wasn't true at all.

Josh Tesch [00:40:05] They actually went through severe financial difficulties while I was on my mission and lost a house and had to move. And they. I feel like my mom partially blames me for that because they had to pay for part of my mission.

Josh Tesch [00:40:26] She has said that a few times. And, yeah, pretty much since then, I started to become a little more. I was more in the angry ex Mormon stage, if you will. And I would post things online. And that eventually led to my parents wanting me out of the house.

Josh Tesch [00:40:47] So I moved down to Orem where I went to school for a while and now I'm in Salt Lake and things are good. I'm with my buddies. I've figured a few things out. I'm in minimal contact with my family. My brother actually just received his mission call to Costa Rica, which I'm pretty excited about for.

Josh Tesch [00:41:09] I just hope I'll be able to talk to him about mission things and that he'll approach me about it because I've served a mission. I know how it works. I can give him advice. I can talk to him about that. I just hope that he'll want to hear that from me, you know? But, yeah, it's definitely caused a bit of a rift within the family.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] So your parents don't try and maintain contact with you?

Josh Tesch [00:41:36] They don't. Like, if I text them, it's not like they ignore me. But I don't know if that's a. I've never had any other family. I don't know if that's common, but I was just staying with my buddies and their parents would call like four nights of the week and they'd talk, get to know me, and, you know, just chat about stuff. And I don't know, I've never had that. I don't know if it's just part of my family or if it's part of my dissension. If you will.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] But you would know if the behavior changed from before your mission to after, right?

Josh Tesch [00:42:13] But I always lived there. I always lived at my parents place.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Okay, so you don't. It's hard for you to know how things would be if you had stayed faithful.

Josh Tesch [00:42:19] Yeah, right. They've told me, my dad said once that he almost rather would have heard that I had died on my mission than heard what he did because. Yeah, I don't know. I've heard they've said some pretty awful things to me. I hate to point them out because I don't really blame them for the problem. I feel like they're just reacting as the church has conditioned them to almost. At least Utah has conditioned them to. And it sucks.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] So sorry. So you feel estranged from them at least partially?

Josh Tesch [00:43:06] Yes. I feel like it has affected our relationship for sure, but I really don't know because I don't know what it's like otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] What about your younger siblings? Do you feel more distant from them than you would have been?

Josh Tesch [00:43:21] Probably, yeah, I think so. My. My little brother, he told me he was pretty disappointed in my decisions and we don't really talk often. The one that's going to Costa Rica. I hope that. I hope that'll change with the mission. Did you get to.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Did you get to try and explain to your parents what. Why you lost your faith and what things you learned and did you ever have a chance to try and talk to them about it?

Josh Tesch [00:43:50] When I originally did that, they made it sound like, okay, we've gone through this too. We understand. We've had this issue. We can help you get through this. But I haven't. I don't know. They've thrown a few books at me, but I feel like it. All the apologetic stuff sounds the same.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] What were the books?

Josh Tesch [00:44:18] One was. It was a book on tape. It was so long ago. I don't even.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] That's okay.

Josh Tesch [00:44:24] Pretty apathetic for the issue now. My grandparents gave me one with a picture of Moroni burying the plates and

John Dehlin [00:44:35] I don't know, like Terrell Givens. Yeah, I think that was by the Hand of Mormon. That wasn't helpful.

Josh Tesch [00:44:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] Okay, but. But you did try and talk to your parents about it and.

Josh Tesch [00:44:49] Yeah, it was. It was hard to open a dialogue though, because I. I have felt, and I still do feel that it's something they don't want to really talk about. And I felt like if they did, they would approach me about it because I don't want to be the one to ensue any sort of doubt in them. I don't know. It seemed to just push away any of the issues I would have, like most Mormons would, in my experience.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] Do you feel like it's hurt you to be estranged from your family?

Josh Tesch [00:45:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] I mean, hurt your feelings. But do you feel like it's. I mean, I know in the LGBT world, if an LGBT youth is. It feels rejected, highly rejected by their family, they're three times more likely to engage in risky drug use or risky sexual behavior, and they're eight times more likely to attempt suicide. I don't want to. I don't want to, like, prejudice you to sort of. And I'm not even asking to share personal things, but my point is that family rejection for LGBT youth can actually be fatal. I'm curious if you feel there's been damage on that level without to say, without disclosing anything you're uncomfortable disclosing?

Josh Tesch [00:46:15] Yeah, I do feel like there has been some damage in that regard. I. I don't know. I've. I've spent some time realizing how. How lonely I am, how I don't feel accepted by them at all. I don't know. I. I feel estranged. Absolutely. And really? Yeah, it's pretty hard. I don't know what else to say.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] I'm so sorry. Did the ward members treat you okay? Did they even care?

Josh Tesch [00:47:02] It was fine because I was in a brand new ward.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Okay, so you didn't.

Josh Tesch [00:47:06] I was able to. I was able to secure a job through one of the board members, which was nice.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] That's nice. Okay. What are the hardest parts about coming home early from a mission?

Life After the Mission and Navigating Faith Transition

Josh Tesch [00:47:22] I'd say. I would say the dating scene. When I first got home, I was dating a Mormon girl. That turned out into a major disaster. I was completely upfront with her the whole time about how I felt about things.

Josh Tesch [00:47:40] She cried when I told her. And since then, I've stayed away from Mormon girls because I don't want that to happen again. The dating scene's been pretty awful. I was pretty close to a lot of the neighbors and friends from my old ward in Layton, and because they've seen how I've changed in my views of the church, our relationships there are a little. A little strained, just kind of.

Josh Tesch [00:48:16] I don't know. I'm seen as an anti Mormon, and though I'm not, I'm very. I love. I love the Mormons. I love the Mormon church. Well, parts of it. And I don't know, really, I felt like my whole life was built to serve my mission.

Josh Tesch [00:48:40] And since I'VE I couldn't even accomplish that. I have kind of lost a sense of direction where I need to go. Right now, I'm. I'm aimlessly traveling across the United States, which is super fun, just to kind of do a little soul searching, figure out what I want, what I like.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] Are you in Texas right now?

Josh Tesch [00:49:03] Yeah, I'm in Texas.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] What city?

Josh Tesch [00:49:06] Dallas.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] I was just there.

Josh Tesch [00:49:09] Yeah, it's great here.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Dallas is great. There's a great transitioning, progressive, post Mormon community in Dallas. You should check them out. Go to Mormon Spectrum. How long are you going to be there?

Josh Tesch [00:49:22] I'm actually leaving tomorrow morning.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Okay, well, go to Mormon Spectrum. Join the DAMA group, the Dallas area Mormons in Transition, and they'll. They'll show you a good time. I have some really good friends there, but good people. I'm sorry it's been so hard. Do you have a sense for how common it was for missionaries to have a faith crisis in your mission? Do you have any idea?

Josh Tesch [00:49:45] I don't have. I did have one companion who also had a faith crisis, but since he's come home, he came home on time and he's married in the temple and everything, but I don't know, he kind of just pushes it aside.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] What about the missionary you were companions with when you were in the Mormon Stories podcast community? Do you know?

Josh Tesch [00:50:05] Yeah, he's the one.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] So he married in the temple and he's back in. Was he struggling at the time you knew him?

Josh Tesch [00:50:13] Yeah, he was.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Okay. So he just either refound his faith or just decided to just kind of stick it out. If you could give mission presidents advice about how to deal more effectively with missionaries on faith crisis and early returns, what would you recommend?

Josh Tesch [00:50:35] I would recommend not sending them home for a faith crisis.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Why? Why? Because

Josh Tesch [00:50:45] it seems like it's all or nothing to them, at least with this mission president. I don't know how other mission presidents handle it, but it's something like a faith crisis is something that's so personal and it varies among the individual, and just deciding that one punishment works well for all is not acceptable. That they need to talk to the missionary about the issue. They need to, even if they'd like to continually meet with them, just make sure they're doing okay, that they're opening dialogue with their family if they feel comfortable doing that, just that they're actually talking about it with those that they love. I feel like that's been really the biggest error on my part, is that I don't try to talk about it with my Family, because I'm afraid to where people just need to put it out in the open, especially when you're on your mission.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Did your mission president try and talk to you and help you at all?

Josh Tesch [00:51:56] No. He asked me what the issues were and I explained that and he tried to explain the solution via our interview, but other than that, no.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] So, like, he tried to explain polygamy or Book of Abraham or Book of Mormon problems, and what were his responses like for you?

Josh Tesch [00:52:20] There are just the apologetic responses that I had heard many times when doing my own research, and it just wasn't satisfying to me.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Okay. All right. So he did try, but it wasn't trying in a way that was useful to you?

Josh Tesch [00:52:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] Okay. If you could give the church suggestions about how to deal more effectively with missionaries in faith crisis and on returning home early, what would you tell the church? Like I was going to say, it seems like you mentioned the biggest issue for you was feeling misled and betrayed. And now it seems like the church is actually inoculating new missionaries with the essays and with a CES curriculum that would introduce the issues of seer stone and polygamy and polyandry and Book of Abraham, the scrolls, such that they will have heard it either in high school or in the mtc, and then they won't be as likely to feel betrayed by having never been taught it. Do you see that as possibly being effective?

Josh Tesch [00:53:38] Yeah, I do. I think that that will be a good step in the right direction.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] So inoculation actually is going to help the church keep its missionaries in the church?

Josh Tesch [00:53:51] I'd say so. If not for them to be able to answer the questions in a way that would bring somebody closer to the church. Meaning like if they were reaching out to an investigator who had found an issue with something, that they'd be able to answer it correctly, but the missionary themselves would understand the issue and not feel so confused when they hear about it for the first time in the field.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] So in many ways the church is actually doing good things to help keep this from happening again. Is that fair to say?

Josh Tesch [00:54:26] Yeah, I'd say that.

Advice for Families, Members, and Early-Return Missionaries

John Dehlin [00:54:27] Okay. Any other suggestions to the church?

Josh Tesch [00:54:35] Just as far. Just with the rhetoric. Watch with the rhetoric. As far as people who have left the church and those who experience. I know Uchtdorf has done a good job. I haven't been caught up on the current, but as far as I know, he's done a good job on letting the members know that there are people out there who have issues with the history, who have faith crises, that need to be acknowledged and that their issues are very real. I think that that's important to not dehumanize people with faith crises.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] That's good. If you could tell family members of missionaries in faith crisis or early return missionaries, if you could give them any advice, what would you tell them?

Josh Tesch [00:55:38] Just love them. Continue to contact them as you would, as a family should, and don't really assume anything about them. Continue to treat them as a brother, a sister, a son or a daughter that they are.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] I'm sure if anyone asked your parents, they'd say they love you. So, so what? What do you mean beyond what your parents are thinking? I guess you've already said it. Just don't, don't limit the contact.

Josh Tesch [00:56:19] What do you mean? Could you rephrase that question?

John Dehlin [00:56:21] Yeah, sorry. So, like, I'm sure your parents would say they love you and yet you don't feel loved. You said don't change how you talk to them or how you communicate with them. Is there anything else you would tell parents in terms of how to make sure their kid feels loved? Because I think your parents think they love you and I think you would say that you believe they love you, but it's pretty clear you're not feeling fully loved. And so what advice? What advice? Other than don't change how you talk to these missionaries, returned missionaries. What advice would you give so that the returned missionaries will actually feel the love?

Josh Tesch [00:57:07] Really? I think this would apply to any family member. Just continue to be interested in their lives. My parents don't know anything that's going on in my life. Really. Just contact them on a regular basis. Call them, ask them, ask them about how they're doing, what they're doing, who they're with. It could be annoying, you know, as a young person to have that happen with your parents, but it's really, really nice to have it as an adult. And I don't know, I think it's because I'm the oldest that my parents haven't figured it out yet. But that's something that could really, really help me and I think help other people who have returned home early from their missions.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Okay. For missionaries who return home early or who have a faith crisis, is there any advice you would offer them?

Josh Tesch [00:58:11] Just be open about how you feel about things.

John Dehlin [00:58:14] Well, but, but, but in your case with your mission president, it really backfired.

Josh Tesch [00:58:19] It did. It did backfire. Are you talking about missionaries who were out or return missionaries?

John Dehlin [00:58:25] Let's just say there's. Okay, we'll talk about missionaries that are about to Go out. But let's say there's a missionary in a faith crisis or who's being sent home early or is trying to decide whether or not to be honest. What would you tell Elder Tesch a month before he. You know, a week before he came out to his mission president?

Josh Tesch [00:58:48] What if I knew it was gonna happen? I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have said anything if I knew they were gonna send me home.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] So keep it to yourself, is what you're saying?

Josh Tesch [00:58:58] Yeah, but be open with those closest to you, like your family members, with the authorities.

John Dehlin [00:59:05] But you're saying they don't want to hear either. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be argumentative.

Josh Tesch [00:59:10] No, that's just. It is. They. They don't want to, but that's because I did it wrong.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] Oh, okay. So how should you. I hate to think that you did it wrong because you were just trying to do your best, but. What. How do you wish you would have done it?

Josh Tesch [00:59:26] I guess I wish I would have kept it to myself.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] And then with your family, told them.

Josh Tesch [00:59:33] Yeah, just talk to. Talked to my family about it. And the authorities know nothing.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] And you would have. You feel like you'd have a better relationship with your family if you hadn't have been sent home early?

Josh Tesch [00:59:45] I do.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] So what was it about being sent home early that soured your relationship with your family? Just the shame. The public shame of it or.

Josh Tesch [00:59:59] Cause things were said that were very hurtful to me, and because I no longer wish to be active, which is where my path has led so far, I would experiment with things, and my parents would find out through other people, and it would cause greater shame, and we're just not able to have an open dialogue about what's going on.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] Okay. And do you regret experimenting with stuff, or do you feel like that was important for you?

Josh Tesch [01:00:33] No, I think that's important for me. I'll try anything once. Unless it's gonna kill me or someone else, hopefully. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] Okay. So it sounds like what you're saying is be open with your family, but it may still go bad, Lee, if you do.

Josh Tesch [01:00:50] Yeah. I feel like if there's people who don't want to associate with you because you feel this way, they aren't worth associating with. It hurts, but honestly, there's so many people in this world that would love you better than they would if they don't treat you, treat you right.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Still hard to lose your family, though, right?

Josh Tesch [01:01:17] It is, absolutely. And I don't feel like I've lost them okay, good. Going through a major, major bump in the road.

Reflections on the Mission and Current Beliefs

John Dehlin [01:01:25] Okay. Do you regret going on a mission now? Do you wish you had not gone? Are you still glad you went?

Josh Tesch [01:01:32] Sometimes I feel the sting when I'm like, I'm so behind in school. I don't know if I'm gonna graduate when I want to, but honestly, I've gained some amazing relationships that I wouldn't trade for anything and had some great experiences that changed my life. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that I regret that at all.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Okay. And if there's a young, you know, 18 year old male or 19 year old female who's been made aware of the issues, has already started to have some doubts, but is thinking about considering a mission, do you have any advice for them?

Josh Tesch [01:02:17] I would tell them to make sure you, you know what you're doing. I didn't know. I didn't know what I was getting into, serving a mission. I didn't know all the details. I didn't know how much work it would be. I can't imagine how much harder it would have been to serve two years under a faith crisis.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] And

Josh Tesch [01:02:40] I don't know, I'd advise them to talk to your relatives, even talk to your bishop about it before you decide to go. There actually happened. There was a missionary who posted on Reddit who I've been in contact with for a while. He just got home and he had a faith crisis in the middle of his mission. We were just able to talk through things and I told him, I'm not going to tell you to go home or to stay out, but, but make sure you know what you're doing. Make sure you find things that bring you peace and that bring you guidance. And he seems to be doing well. He just got home and I expect a call from him here soon. And it's really a case by case basis.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Beautiful. Are there resources for missionaries in a faith crisis that you're aware of?

Josh Tesch [01:03:35] No, not that I'm aware of. Besides Reddit.

John Dehlin [01:03:38] Ex Mormon Reddit?

Josh Tesch [01:03:40] Yeah, ex Mormon Reddit. I've been referred to many times to missionaries who have posted there and then I'll private message them and only one has replied back, but it's happened many times.

John Dehlin [01:03:54] Maybe we ought to create a safe place for struggling, questioning missionaries.

Josh Tesch [01:04:01] Yeah, that'd be great.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] All right, listeners, if any of you can think of a way to do that or a system for providing support to questioning missionaries or to people who come home early from their mission, I think we need to create some type of support Group, don't you think?

Josh Tesch [01:04:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:04:20] Yeah. All right, so let's try and end on a bit of a positive note. Josh, I really appreciate you doing this interview. I'm sorry it's been so hard. I think you're courageous and a real source of inspiration for so many people. So many people reached out and said, you need to be the first person that gets interviewed.

Josh Tesch [01:04:41] So I'm flattered.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] Why don't you. Would you mind sharing with us what your beliefs are now? Not necessarily religiously, just what are your values in life? What are the things that you believe in or care about or kind of give us your testimony, even if it's a fully secular testimony. Share with us your beliefs and your values as they stand today to kind of conclude this interview.

Josh Tesch [01:05:09] Wow. So. I'm having a hard time deciding if. If humans are inherently good or not. But I like to pretend. And I have experienced many, many different people, different relationships that have helped me lean toward people generally being good, that they want to help each other, they want to serve each other. And I've noticed throughout my.

Josh Tesch [01:05:44] Throughout my experiences as of late that as I bring forth positive energy and continually try and help others and be a good person, that good people come to me and opportunities to serve come to me. And I know that as I continue to do that, that I will live a full and successful life.

Josh Tesch [01:06:10] And I believe that as long as anybody does the same thing, that they also will find opportunities to look outside themselves and become better. Because I really believe as you forget yourself, you find yourself. And I look forward to this trip. I'm going very low, low budget. I'm hitchhiking and.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] What the crap? What are you doing? Don't hitch from Utah. You hitchhiked to Texas.

Josh Tesch [01:06:41] And, dude, I cheated when I came to Texas because I was gonna work with my buddy. Anyways, I'm gonna be hitchhiking to South Carolina and then probably to Cali. But it's 100% reliant upon the kindness of others. And that's a big reason why I'm doing it, is because I get to meet the best people that the world has to offer. And I really look forward to meeting great people. And I would suggest that others will look for the best in the people around them because they're not always going to be there.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] Well, I'm going to call on listeners to. Let's start. Start an Elder Tesch travel fund so that he can. So he can travel by bus or airplane. And not.

Josh Tesch [01:07:37] That's not as cool.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Be hitchhiking across the Fetching country. What the freak?

Josh Tesch [01:07:44] I'll take your money, but I'll probably sledge. Hike.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Oh, man. Well, stay safe. Stay safe, Josh.

Josh Tesch [01:07:53] I will. Also, I'd like to give a shout out to Sunday Assembly. It's a secular group in Salt Lake that's all over the world. They have a chapter in Salt Lake City. It's like church, but without God. And people will come together and they'll have like, TED Talk, like, talks every one Sunday of the month. And I'm super excited for it to happen in Salt Lake. They're all over the world, but I'd love for people to check those out if they're looking for a community that isn't religious, but doesn't. Excuse me, doesn't reject people who are religious and promotes secular thinking.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] Has Sunday assembly been meeting monthly in Salt Lake City?

Josh Tesch [01:08:44] They're starting this September is going to be their first one. I've been organizing service projects for them through Volunteers of America. And it's a really good organization. And the leaders there are fantastic. And I suggest people check that out.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] How many attendees? How many members do you think they have or attendees?

Josh Tesch [01:09:03] Well, we've had, see, we've had a barbecue, the Pie and Beer day we had, and There were over 70 people there. We plan on having over 200 people at our first, our first meeting in September. And it'll be a good time. People of all ages and different denominations.

John Dehlin [01:09:23] Yeah. Well, while we're doing shout outs, there's also the Oasis communities in Utah. So Oasis is the same thing. They meet a little bit more frequently than once a month, but they're also secular communities. And Salt Lake has one, Utah county has one. Park City has one. It's called Wasatch Back Oasis. There's a northern Wasatch one for kind of Layton, Ogden, and then Cache Valley has its own Oasis group, and they have barbecues and Sunday meetings as well. So in addition to Sunday assembly, Salt Lake, if anyone's interested in a secular community, check out all the different Oasis congregations in Utah, and there's also one in Houston and in Kansas City. So that's good stuff. All right, Josh Tesch, thank you for joining us on Mormon Stories. Thanks for your courage. Please take care of yourself.

Josh Tesch [01:10:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] Yeah. And appreciate you coming on for listeners. Thank you guys for supporting Mormon Stories. All your donations to Mormon Stories are tax deductible. They go to the Open Stories Foundation. They make all the things we do, workshops and retreats and podcasts possible. So if you're not donating to Mormon Stories, of the Open Stories foundation. Please do. Even 10 or 20 bucks a month can change lives. And that's all we do is try and change lives for the better. So for those of you who do donate, please continue and please join us@mormonstories.org Josh, I hope you'll I hope you will join us on mormonstories.org if people have questions or want to thank you. I hope you'll respond to the comments there.

Josh Tesch [01:11:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:11:12] Is that all right?

Josh Tesch [01:11:13] Yeah, I can do that.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] All right. And your friend in the background, introduce us to your friend.

Josh Tesch [01:11:18] This is Shannon.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] Hi, Shannon.

Josh Tesch [01:11:22] How's it going?

John Dehlin [01:11:23] Thanks for joining us. Hope you enjoyed it. All right, guys, take care. Thanks so much.

Josh Tesch [01:11:32] Bye.

John Dehlin [01:11:32] All right, take care. Bye.

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