Introduction and Paul's Intentions for the Interview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's January 21, 2025 and today we are going to be having a guest who is talking about navigating neurodivergence. In this case, I'll call it high functioning autism, adhd, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Paul Martinez [00:00:26] Yeah, close enough, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Within the context of a high demand religion and also within the context of abusive relationship, how to self advocate, and also sort of maybe achieving or obtaining some of these neurodivergent diagnoses as an adult later in life. Because I know it's really common, people now obtaining ADHD and or autism diagnoses as adults and then reflecting back on maybe signs that people missed when they were young. But that's what we're going to be talking about today on Mormon Stories. Margi's here as co host. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:12] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] And our guest today is Paul Martinez.

Paul Martinez [00:01:16] Yeah, pleasure to be here, team. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] From the sun. No, wait, is Florida the Sunshine State?

Paul Martinez [00:01:22] What's California?

John Dehlin [00:01:23] What's California?

Paul Martinez [00:01:24] California. Golden State.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Bear State. Golden State. All right. Well, anyway, Paul Martinez, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Paul Martinez [00:01:31] Yeah, thank you so much. It's a real honor to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Yeah, we're really glad to have you.

Paul Martinez [00:01:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Also, you're a convert to the church.

Paul Martinez [00:01:37] I am a convert. I joined when I was 20 years old.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] So that's another dynamic as well. There's also themes of divorce and, you know, faith, faith navigation and faith journey as well.

Paul Martinez [00:01:55] Right, that's right, John. Yeah. Happy to share.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] All right, so, Paul, normally we like to give everyone a chance to give kind of an intention why they wanted to do an interview on Mormon Stories. Do you want to take a minute to share your intention?

Paul Martinez [00:02:10] Absolutely, John. I've been thinking about this one. I have, I have two intentions here, John. One is to heal. You know, putting words to the experience is so, so healing, you know, and I need it. I think everyone does. So one, talking about it, it just helps me process and move through. And two, John is. I would love to be another voice in the Mormon Stories choir. You know, Mormon Stories was so good to me. There was just phenomenal stories and ones that I really needed, you know, when I heard them. And I'd love to do the same for someone else. That would mean so much to me.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Beautiful. Well, we really appreciate you making the drive and coming to the studio. All right, so Paul Martinez, where does your Mormon story begin? As I understand the outline, it doesn't start as a Mormon.

Family Background and Early Childhood

Paul Martinez [00:03:02] It does not. It doesn't, John. My Mormon story begins when I was very young. It starts with my family. You know, it starts with my parents. Hey, so my dad. My dad back then and I suspect now was on the spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] And when you say there's gonna be a lot of people that don't know about autism, know about ADHD and even neurodivergence.

Paul Martinez [00:03:31] So, absolutely, yeah, I'll speak to that. So let me speak to autism, ADHD and neurodivergence. Autism. Simply put, we have deficiencies with our prefrontal cortex. We have difficulty with abstract thinking, breaking down complex tasks. Some components of impulse control. A big part is deregulation. Deregulation, being able to control your emotions and curb them. You know, it's a big problem. It can be a really big problem. Social issues, you know, a lot of us have autism. We just miss a lot of social cues, break boundaries, we interrupt, we overshare, and we're just not the best, you know, not the most eloquent. And adhd. With adhd, which I also have, John, two things is impulse control. Big deal. We've all seen that six or seven year old who has ADHD just running around, bouncing around the walls. What's really happening, I guess, is another part of ADHD is we're seeking novelty, we're seeking stimulation. It's not that we're overstimulated, we're actually understimulated, and we're desperately looking for it. So impulse control and seeking novelty, Right? Tying that to neurodivergence. So neurodivergent is actually a relatively new term and one that I subscribe to. It speaks more to the idea that we're just a minority. We just happen to be a small part of the population. And if we were to flip it in neurotypicals, we're the minority. You guys would be the crazy ones, right? In that you never say what you mean, you don't mean what you say. You're indirect with your speech. You're staring at us with your eyeballs all day. You're planning for things years ahead when plans might change at any time. Right? So it's really that we're just a minority here, Don. Right. And this world was just not built for us. I have to say, some really despise that label because it denies the trauma that a lot of neurodivergent people experience. It can be really hard to just fill out paperwork, John, when you have adhd, because it's so boring, right? People fall late or fall behind on payments because it's so boring to create that login. Remember the password? Oh, I forgot it. Gotta reset it. I don't wanna do this. And then you run off and do something more exciting. So it can be really traumatic and a lot of people fall behind. It can be really hard. And people who are neurodivergent, we're more likely to fall victim to predators and abusive people. I think it's 10 to 12 times we're more likely to be abused and fewer people help us. You know, we just don't have the kind of political prowess and power that other populations have. So, you know, I'm sympathetic to that. But I like, you know, I identify as neurodivergent. You know, I just like to think I'm a little different, John. And, you know, if you work with me, I'll work with you. So that being said, and kind of tying it back to my dad. So my dad definitely on the spectrum, definitely. Adhd never got a diagnosis, but he had issues with deregulation. When my dad would get mad, he would get mad, and it would be sudden. You know, I'd spill a drink at the dinner table, you know, and homeboy was, you know, getting up from his chair and he was pissed, right? He was physical, you know, and that was just his way of handling the situation. You know, it was quick, it was easy, and it got things done okay. He was also really hard to work with. Like, when I needed my dad to help me out with, you know, getting school stuff, he would forget, you know, he'd get the wrong thing, and it was a disaster, right? So I didn't get the guidance, you know, I was really hoping for. You know, and I was taught from an early age that you obey, you listen, you obey, you do what dad says and you stay out of trouble. You know, you learn to fawn. That was my survival, you know, technique. I fawned, you know, whatever you want, dad. Here you go. Yes, dad, you know, here it is, and I'll stay out of your way. And you do that to survive, right? So I didn't have direction, you know, as a youth, 8, 9 years old, walking through the streets of Santa Monica. No curfew. Sometimes I wouldn't even come home. And the next day, I'd walk through those doors, dad wouldn't even ask where I was. There was just no real relationship there. My mom. My mom. I had great memories of my mom growing up. But unfortunately, there was a divorce and someone needed to prevail. You know, it was a really contentious Divorce. And my mind was poisoned as a child, and I was conditioned to hate my mom. Okay, So I threw my mom under the bus. But deep down, John, I loved my mom. I loved her. And I hated myself for that. You know, I was so young.

Growing Up Neurodivergent: ADHD and Autism

John Dehlin [00:08:34] For being influenced with the parental alienation.

Paul Martinez [00:08:37] Yeah. That I didn't stand out for myself. You know, I was so young. How could I have, you know, But I did it, you know, I threw my own mom under the bus. You know, dad wins the custody deal. And eventually I started to believe the lies, you know, about my mom, that, you know, I was a welfare baby. She never loved you. You don't want to be with her. And I was conditioned to think I was unlovable. If your mom doesn't love you, something's wrong with you. So I'm young. I'm a kiddo. We're egocentric as children. Everything's about us. And a big part of neurodivergence is we do that, too. Everything's our fault. We just don't understand that caretakers sometimes make mistakes. We suffer from really simplistic, naive black and white thinking sometimes. And breaking that kind of simple mindset, we just can't do it. Not unless we get a lot of therapy and break it. We have very rigid mindsets. So I didn't have a family. John, for all intents and purposes, very contentious. My father was a recluse. I didn't see other family growing up and isolated, very alone. You know, I was awkward, you know, autism. I was overweight, impulse control, ate a lot of food, and I paid the price with friends, you know, awkward. I was a Mexican kid in west la, Santa Monica, and working class, so I stood out. Not much in the way of friends and, you know, no community, no leadership. And I was so alone.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Sounds like the perfect candidate for Mormon missionaries.

Paul Martinez [00:10:23] Yeah, yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] I'm not trying to rush the story, but I mean, oftentimes vulnerable people or lonely people or isolated people or most interested in the gospel message.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:38] I also see, honestly, with your childhood just so a great deal of stress for a child. And I'm guessing because of that, just you're honestly coming up with coping as a child with very limited resources. And so when we talk about fawning or we talk about how you learn to stay safe as a child, it's literally just whatever a child can grab for safety. And. And so. But one of the tragic things about that is that your sense of self, right, like that development of who you are or oftentimes is the Thing that gets neglected. Would you say that was true for you? That you're so busy trying to just stay safe in a moment that, you know, Paul as a boy maybe had limited what opportunity to explore and to kind of get this sense for who you are?

Paul Martinez [00:11:45] Absolutely. I mean, your needs get in the way. Right. You're bothering dad at this point. You know, he needs to relax. He just came back from a hard day's work, or he's upset, or I'm scared. I'm scared of upsetting him. Right. So I would only reach out when I really needed to reach out.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:02] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [00:12:03] And I just learned, like, he's just not a resource for you in this life. Just don't rely on him. It's only gonna hurt you.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:11] And the other thing I was just gonna ask you about is oftentimes when you grow up as a child, where your home isn't safe, other places can be places of safety. Right. A child looks wherever they can. And sometimes that would be friendship, sometimes that would be sports, sometimes that would be school. But the. What you're describing, is that likely? Maybe some of those places were also hard for you. So was that true and was that further isolating this, or were there places of safety for you?

Paul Martinez [00:12:45] Yeah, you know, I tried to fit in, I tried to make friends, but I didn't have a cool place. You know, hey, friend, you know, can you come over check out my Nintendo 64 or whatever? It's like, I didn't have that stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:57] And.

Paul Martinez [00:12:57] And I would feel so self conscious going to other people's houses. You know, for starters, they were houses, you know, stairs leading up to them, like two stories. Going up a set of stairs, like, no. And I was really uncomfortable. The autism might have also played a role in that, in that novel situations can be really stressful. Right. And the few times I would visit, you know, I wasn't terribly polite. I didn't do all the pleasantries. You know, either I wasn't taught them or I just didn't see them. You know, I don't. I miss the cues, and so I wouldn't be invited back. You know, in high school, I did have one really meaningful relationship, and it carried me through. She, too, had. Had been abused, and there was trauma bonding, like it brought us together and that. That carried me through for a bit. We both needed it. Yeah, that was a game changer. And we had a small group of friends and we were all, you know, a little oddball, but it was what I needed then. Yeah. I definitely did not have a large Community, you know, to fall on family was off limits. You know, if I talk to the family, then I'm betraying dad. So yeah, like it was hard, you know, I look back and those were tough times. I feel so bad for that little kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:20] Yeah.

Life Before the Church and Early Religious Curiosity

John Dehlin [00:14:21] So how did, is, is the church coming into your life the next part of the story or is there something

Paul Martinez [00:14:26] else before the church? Yeah, we can go to the.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] Were you religious at all or before joining the Mormon LDS church?

Paul Martinez [00:14:35] Not really. My family Hispanic somehow missed the Catholic missionaries and they were evangelical and you know, I attended a couple times. But you know, I was young, it didn't really resonate and it was not a big part of our life. So I didn't feel the pressure to go either. Come high school. I was a self proclaimed atheist. You know, I just said, hey, there's no way, there's no way there's a God. You know, tell me how all these things can be and you know, have homeboy God just watch over it. Like I don't buy it.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] Yeah, what, what were you interested in? What were your interests in high school?

Paul Martinez [00:15:10] Yeah, special interest. Thank you for bringing that up. I love skating. Skating actually was really good. Physical being. Physical exercise. Yeah, skateboarding. Oh yeah, that was great for me. You know, three, four hours a day I was skating and that kept me, that kept me going as well physically. Yeah, that was really good. Chess, another special interest I had, that gal I met, I needed to beat her dad, you know, I needed to win him over and we played chess. He beats me the first time. I'm like, ah, I gotta beat this guy. And I started studying and I fell in love with it. I, I loved history from your 1830s romantic period and all the openings back then to your classical to your. Sorry, yeah, romantic to your classical to your hyper modern chess theory and opening theory and I would study that too. I love to learn. School. I did really well in school. That was also something that really saved me. I was great with book smarts, reading and comprehension. I just love doing it. So school was great. I did really well. High school. I took senior five AP classes de facto college and I was proud of that.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Tell me if that's potentially a feature of both ADHD and high functioning autism. The ability to kind of drill deep learning wise.

Paul Martinez [00:16:29] Yeah, that's a great question, John. There is a bit of a paradox with ADHD and high functioning autism. Historically, if you have adhd, you do terribly in school, you do have a really terrible time. It's tough to just sit there and watch A person write on a board and talk. I remember just tuning him out and thinking, I will follow up later. You know, I'll talk to him after school, I'll check it out on the Internet. But if you do have an interest, it is your thing, you know, you're doing it every day. Same with autism, your special interests. Everyone has an autistic friend or cousin who just loves Pokemon or trains or horror films, and they know all the facts and all the things. So it depends if you have both. Autism, adhd. It is a bit of a paradox in that. Adhd, you want novelty, so it doesn't make sense that you're studying the same thing four hours a day. And autism says, I want routine, I want structure. You know, give it to me. You know, if you're on the spectrum, you're always wondering, what's next? What are we doing? You know, where are we going to go eat? You know, has the menu changed? Are we going to park in the same spot? You know, are we going to sit at the same table? You know, and with me, it manifests itself in this way. So I have both, is that I need structure in that from 2 to 5pm, I'm adulting, I'm doing, I call it executive time, where I'm filling out paperwork, I'm doing work, doing invoices. But the thing I'm doing might change within those two, from two to five. So maybe I'll do this project. And then from five to six, I'm cooking food, but I might cook a different meal, but I need that meal from 5 to 6, if I start. If it's 6, 10, it just, it worries me. I get anxious. The food doesn't taste as good and it starts to throw off my day. So there's structure, but there's novelty within that structure as well. So chess, same thing. Every chess game is different, but the pieces move the same every time.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Got it. Okay. So a really good student and love to skateboard and play chess, I would

Margi Dehlin [00:18:52] ask one maybe final question just to lay a foundation for what's to come, you know, what would you say your foundation for your experience of love. And I'm going to say this in quotation marks, love, because we're going to talk about just your concept of love based on your childhood and your family system.

Paul Martinez [00:19:14] Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:17] What was that like? What did you learn?

Paul Martinez [00:19:19] Yeah, Love, emotions. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. This is actually a big part of it. Autism. Alexithymia. Alexithymia is a part of Autism. And it's difficulty comprehending and experiencing emotions, right? We have them, but sometimes we have a flat affect and we don't express them well. We either don't express them well or two, we don't understand what's happening. You know, we might be able to tell that it's good or it's bad, but if it's a grief, you know, if it's, you know, you know, we ate something, food that maybe made us sick, if we hear something upsetting, we get upset. We might not even really tell we're upset, but others can. And so we're a little removed from emotions. So one, detecting them can be really hard. And then two, we can have really big emotions as well. That's where the ADHD comes in. We can have really big emotions. We can go from 0 to 100 in a snap. You know, if something doesn't exactly go our way, a routine is broken. And my experience has taught me that I just wasn't lovable. And I would punish myself. Truth be told, I did not self mutilate, but I would torture myself at night with terrible thoughts about myself, okay? And I felt like I deserved it. You know, mom doesn't love you. Look at your dad, look at what's happening with all these things in your life. Like, you deserve this. And it felt good when I felt bad, okay?

John Dehlin [00:20:55] You know, I've never thought about rumination and self hatred as self harm. But it, but that just like OCD can have physical rituals, but also mental rituals that serve the function of compulsions. I never thought about self harm having a purely mental component.

Paul Martinez [00:21:20] No, John, it was real. It was so real. And it was for years, right? It would be made worse. It was a stab in the heart every time because my parents divorced and it was my sisters who would see my mom, you know, stay with dad, and my mom would drop them off and I would see her card, I'd see her dropping them off and I'd be like, man, you know, I wish I could see her. You know, I wish I could, but you know, I can't. You know, it'll piss off dad. And this is where the black and white thinking came in. Like I'd made a decision, you know, even though I was a child. Like, no, I made the decision and I'm sticking to it. Like I have to do it. But that was torture, you know, to see her and to see her drive away and to think, you know, I wonder if she's thinking about me. And so it was for years, you know, every Night. And I would do it, John, and I would. And it would feel good and it would feel bad, like, oh, this is, you know, it's working. You know, it's doing what it's supposed to do right now. It was terrible. But during the day, you know, relatively okay, you know, great student, had the girlfriend. I was tortured, you know, deep down inside, speaking to the love kind of component to it. Yeah. I did not feel worthy of love. And there were probably times where people tried to reach out and I turned them down. I would turn them down. I didn't know why. It would feel like magnets with the same polarity. The moment there was any kind of affection, it's like, oh, I gotta go. You know, I don't feel comfortable with this. And it was hard. Yeah, those are really tough times. And that absolutely plays a role in my, you know, kind of my church experience. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:18] And if we were going to have you describe your foundational relationships in life and what they felt like, like the descriptors of what those relationships felt like, because I think this does build an unconscious familiarity that comes in. How would you describe some of those descriptors with your, you know, those, those kind of founding relationships to a child? What do they feel like? Stable versus volatile or do you know what I mean?

Paul Martinez [00:23:53] You know, I might not have even known what a relationship was, how to form them. I'm, I'm shocked. I did as well as I did with my, with my then girlfriend. We actually had a great relationship. We never deregulated in front of each other, you know. You know, we really cared about each other and there was something where we just felt so safe and I think it was the trauma we both endured. You know, she endured something really difficult as a child and she would self harm as well, you know, and I think that we were just genuinely both really hurt and that brought us together. But with most relationships, the autism might have played a role. I'm not sure where they started and where they began. You know, I would, I'd show up to a classroom, I wouldn't greet people. You know, maybe because I didn't know how, but maybe because I really didn't want to either. I just didn't really understand them.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Yeah, makes sense. So when did you miss. When and how did you meet the missionaries?

Attending USC and Converting to the Church

Paul Martinez [00:25:02] Absolutely. John so did well in high school. Really proud of this and first of my family to go to private university. University of spoiled children. Very proud of that. In la. Usc. Yeah, usc.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] You're a Trojan.

Paul Martinez [00:25:19] I am. I'm a Trojan.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Fight On.

Paul Martinez [00:25:20] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Fight on. You know, it's all my Trojan brothers out there.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] Wait, so that's a big deal to grow up sort of lower ses, but to make it in the usc, right?

Paul Martinez [00:25:32] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] And to be able to pay for it or to have scholarships.

Paul Martinez [00:25:35] Absolutely. So what's interesting is if someone had not intervened and told me I would not have gone to usc. It was a math teacher, you know, and they saw, like, hey, this kid's smart. And they knew a little bit. A little bit about my family history. And he saw potential in me. You know, it's Mr. Oklah. I still remember him, and I still remember, hey, call this number two one, three, like seven four zero, you know, quadruple zero, something like that. And that's the admissions office. Like, call them and we'll tee you up for the paperwork. And again, like, a lot of the colleges in their tiers, and one's better than the other, and this one will help you more with that. It just didn't really resonate with me. You know, it was not a part of my growing up. But, yeah, no, he intervened. He saw the potential. Yeah. There have been key players in my life who, you know, they saw. They saw who he was, and they said to this kid, if we point him in the right direction, you know, he can do really good things, you know, and they. They did instill confidence in me, like, I needed these people. So he helped me out, you know, helped me out with the paperwork and pointed us to financial aid. And I ended up getting a pretty great deal for usc. Pretty great deal.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:54] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Okay. And then what comes next?

Paul Martinez [00:26:59] So. Absolutely. So my ADHD got in the way. I wound up in the wrong school. Letters, Arts and sciences. I wanted architecture. Classic adhd, filling things out wrong. So eventually I transferred architecture. And I'm in studio. There are about 12 of us in studio. It's kind of like an art kind of environment. And there was one gal there, one lady there who. She stood out. She seemed really wholesome and kind and genuine. I was always a good kid. I didn't do the debauchery stuff, so I stayed away from that as well. But, you know, it's college. A lot of people are excited to be away and do stupid stuff and swear, you know, and try to impress, but not her, you know, she. She was just so sweet, you know, And I'm like, I gotta get to know this person. Eventually we start working on a project together, and, you know, final. It's probably due Monday, and we were working Sunday and she's like, hey, you know, I gotta go to church, you know, can't show up till 1. And I'm like, okay, fine, whatever, you know, we'll see. At one, we started doing the work, and we started talking about, you know, her church. Hey, you know, tell me about this church. What's that all about? Oh, yeah, you know, part of the Mormon Church, you know, And I had a lot of the cliche misconceptions about it, you know, Amish thought these people were the Amish. I'm like, you don't look Amish. And she's like, no, no, you know, we're not the Amish, you know. You know, we believe that in a restored church, you know, that the church that Christ himself had once established is back on the earth. And we believe in this new set of scripture, Book of Mormon. And, man, it stood out to me. There was a logic to it that appealed to me, like, all right, you know, homeboy established a church, you know, falls apart, it's got to come back. You know, he worked with prophets, apostles. Okay, you know, that makes sense. And this Book of Mormon, I'm like, all right, new scripture, you know, homeboy Jesus, he's in the Americas, you know, makes sense. Why would he just abandon, you know, other people? It makes sense. He'd go around and preach this gospel. And I say, hey, I want a copy of this book. You know, can you give it to me? And, yeah, he said, sure, I'll give it to you. And a few days later, she hands me a copy. And it had her testimony in it. And her testimony, man, it resonated, you know, I read it. It was her handwriting in front of the Book of Mormon. And I remember the Book of Mormon. I still have it. I still have that Book of Mormon. It was a little Warren. And she writes her testimony how much it's affected her and how she knew it was true, you know, and there was an authenticity to it, John, that I couldn't ignore. You know, it called me, and I became obsessed. I became obsessed. It was my new special interest. And I was reading that book day and night. You know, we'd be sitting in class, I'm reading that book. I'm not even paying attention. So I'm reading that book and like, hey, I want to learn more. Tell me more. She's like, all right, you got to meet the missionaries,

Margi Dehlin [00:30:26] and her life is made. She's like, wow, usually it's not this easy.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] Yeah, that's what we call a golden convert. That's right.

Paul Martinez [00:30:36] You Know, it was an easy process because it felt so right. A lot of it made sense, but what really called to me was that there was actually an emotional component to felt right. And the church talks about feelings. You know, the Holy Ghost, you know, pay attention to how you feel as you read it. I start going to the activities, and it's a college award, okay? So it's different. People who don't want to go to church and college, they don't go. So I was surrounded by people who believed. And these people were so kind. They were so genuine, and they believed. I remember my first fast and testimony meeting. One guy gets up, I heard his testimony, and I'm like, man, like, what is this? Like, what am I feeling right now? You know, feelings. They were so hard for me already, and I'm starting to feel something, like, so special. And I'm like, all right, you know, there's something here. You know, there's something here, and it's special, and I can't ignore it. You know, I'm gonna see this one through. I'm gonna see it through. And I'm reading. I'm reading and I'm praying. For the first time in my life, I'm praying, you know, it was really hard to pray, really hard to pray. It felt so awkward to do it, but I'm like, I'm gonna give it a shot. First prayer was so broken, so short. Something like, hey, you know, God, if you're there, you know, just help me out. Period. Done, you know, Period. And I started praying with the missionaries. I loved hearing their prayers. You know, they would pray for me. I'm like, man, these people, like, they really care. And there was a genuineness that it called me, and it called me hard. And they say, hey, Paul, like, you ought to pray, you know? And I love that they're like, you pray. You pray and find out for yourself. And it felt so low pressure, right? Activities were great. I loved the talks. Sunday school was so much fun. But, you know, to join a church, that was a big change for me. Big change. Change in identity. You know, all my friends are like, no, this is jaded Paul. You know, the Paul we know, he doesn't believe in God. As a matter of fact, he hates God. You know, like, what's going on? And that relationship I was in from high school, it carried over. And she didn't like it. She did not like it. She says, hey, Paul, they only want your 10%. That's all you want. Don't do it. The problem was she went to A different college. So I didn't see her, And I couldn't ignore it. So I continued to stay with the church. I felt a little embarrassed, to be honest. My family found out, and they're like, hey, mijito, you know, those Mormons, you know, you gotta watch out for them. You know, Bible says this, you know, book more. It's not true. Can't be. It's not possible. So they didn't like it. Girlfriend didn't like it. My friends didn't like it. And a part of me felt uncomfortable with it because it was a big change, you know, it's like going from Democrat to Republican. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like that. You know, you're almost untrustworthy at that point, you know. But Rona's promise, you know, they say, hey, you gotta pray, you gotta pray. Find out for yourself. I'm like, all right, that's fair. It makes sense to me. And I would pray. I loved praying with people from the church. They were so friendly and so kind. I still remember, John, that prayer. I was with that friend from studio, and I prayed. I prayed with her. And I swear to God, you know, God answered my prayer. I swear to God he did. And I was overcome. I was overcome with this just swelling emotion of the heart. I had not been moved like that as long as I could remember. As long as I could remember. I'm like, oh, my God, you know, this is real. This is real. And I'm doing it. Like, I'm doing it, damn it. You know, I don't care. You know, I don't care what my family says. I don't care what my friends say. Yeah, big deal, you know, big change. But you know, what? If it's true, it's true, right? And you got to do it. You know? Some of that black and white thinking kicked in where, like, if it's true, you just do. It doesn't matter.

The Book of Mormon and Early Spiritual Experiences

John Dehlin [00:35:42] And when you just for. Let's just say the Never Mormons who don't know what you mean, what was true? Like, if you had to summarize four or eight sort of like, pillars of what you came to believe, what messages did you derive from the missionaries and from the Book of Mormon?

Paul Martinez [00:36:00] Yeah, absolutely. So one is that the true church of God himself, you know, has been restored, that he has inspired leaders on this earth today, you know, that Jesus Christ himself, you know, speaks through these prophets, and that his kingdom is on the earth again, you know, and what his prophets teach, you know, it's true, right? It might seem Illogical at times. Maybe we don't have answers for it, but it doesn't matter because it's true, John. You just do it. Right? And that was. That was a big deal for me. And as long as I understood it, I almost didn't think about it. Right. Because it's true. What more do you need? If it's true, Would you.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] What do you come to believe about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?

Paul Martinez [00:36:53] Yeah, one Joseph Smith. That he was the prophet of the restoration, you know, that Jesus Christ and God himself had appeared to him, that he had a special mission on this earth, and it was his job to bring the Book of Mormon and to prove that he was a prophet of this dispensation. You know, church is back. Here's the proof, you know, read it and you can find out for yourself. So I was a believer. I believed, you know, I was in, and I believed. I had that experience with that friend in the room, and she saw it, you know, she saw it, and that moved her, too, you know, and that only confirmed, you know, how true it was for the both of us. So we both felt it. I know it. I know God answered my prayer, and I had a testimony, you know, and no one was going to take it from me. I had a powerful testimony of it, you know, and I was so proud to have it. You know, I felt so lucky that God himself, you know, had answered his prayer to me.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:55] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [00:37:56] You know, I felt, you know, I felt so far removed from being loved and being worthy and that, you know, that I'm a child of God, you know, that I have value. I have a plan on this earth. Like, oh, my God, you know, that changed my life. You know, it made me unstoppable. You know, I was baptized shortly thereafter. You know, everyone came to my baptism. You know, it was so great to see them. I felt so loved. And here's the thing. Like, they were for real. They were for real. You know, their parents weren't there to, like, make them go. And, you know, I felt their love. And I felt the Savior's love, too, you know, I felt his love, and it was so real. And I was in it to win it, John. After that, I'm like, man, I'm preaching this gospel, and I would go out

Margi Dehlin [00:38:54] with it locked in. Yeah.

Paul Martinez [00:38:56] Oh, yeah. You know, like, you're not taking this from me, you know, I don't care who you are. I don't care what facts you might have, you know, you just haven't done it right. You have not done It.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:06] Right.

Paul Martinez [00:39:06] Because if you had, you would have experienced what I did.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:09] Okay.

Paul Martinez [00:39:09] Like, you know, you just, you got to do it right. Keep trying, you know, Keep trying. We'll help you. So not as a, as a missionary. I would go out with the missionaries every week. I'm like, dude, I'm there with you guys. I want to share my testimony. I want to change lives too. And they were happy to have me. And I loved being with them. You know, the missionaries, they were my superheroes, you know, Coolest people you'll ever meet. I loved that they were young, sacrificing so much, and we'd knock doors together, you know, I would spend four to six hours a week.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Dang. As a college student.

Paul Martinez [00:39:46] Yeah, Absolutely. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [00:39:50] It was a blessing and an honor to preach this gospel, John.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] You know, I'm thinking about how, like, as a devout Mormon, the last thing I would have wanted to do in college would be to, like, go proselyte. But then I think about the fact that so many high demand religions recruit college students because it must be a prime time to get recruited, to give you to find a mission and make meaning and purpose and community that the right college student would love to get snatched up by a high demand religion, depending on how they're doing internally.

Paul Martinez [00:40:31] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:32] Psychological kind of template. Because I'm noticing too, this is an emotional. This is an emotional experience to you. It feels almost like an emotional awakening where some of the holes that you kind of came into college with, being seen, being heard, being truly valued, being part of something belonging, like they were filled during this time in a real way that still makes you feel emotional when you think of it.

Paul Martinez [00:41:07] It was real. I mean, you see it like, I'm not gonna lie about it. It was so real. And those who saw it, knew it was real. And I knew it was real. And John and Margi, I felt the savior's love. I absolutely did. Like. No, it was okay. It really was. So it absolutely checked that emotional box. It did. Oh, my God. Like, I didn't know this was a thing. Okay. The church also checked a lot of my neurodivergent boxes. So. Structure, you know, I thrive on structure. And there are activities, you know, there were five activities a week, same day every week. So I always knew what was next. Same with church, you know, you have your block. Here's the lesson, you know, I always knew what was next. I was baptized. Hey, we got the priesthood for you. You know, you have to do this first, meet with them. Boom. Got it. Then you could Move on to this boom mission next for you, right? So it was laid out for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:10] And I love that, that plan, that structure.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Also, black and white thinking, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:42:16] Black and white thinking, yes.

Paul Martinez [00:42:18] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] So good and bad, true and false. It's all there.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:24] And on the ADHD side, do you feel like it had the novelty? Here is something completely new, Right. That you can kind of rabbit hole or. Really?

Paul Martinez [00:42:34] Yes. I loved Institute. I went to institute. I did the institute thing. There were so many manuals and John Amargi. I actually read them. You know, I learned. Like, no one reads them. No, I read them. I would mark them up. People would show up, they'd be like, oh, shoot, like, we gotta act like we read them. And I just love talking about the gospel. All the things, you know, general conferences, magazines, like, give it to me, I'll read it. And I did. So it was all new. So much to learn. And it checked that, you know, wrinkling my brain box in that novelty box. Loved it. It was absolutely what I needed.

Baptism, Family Reactions, and Ethnic Identity

Margi Dehlin [00:43:15] I have a question. When you made the decision to get baptized, so when your family or your girlfriend, when they realized you were going to do it, you actually were going to, how did they respond to that? And did they attend your baptism?

Paul Martinez [00:43:33] Yeah. So my girlfriend, she did not approve. And we broke up before we set a baptismal date. We were on a call, and this is where the ADHD kicked in. Impulse control. Right. And I didn't even really know much about the church at that point. And I was getting a little frustrated, you know, like, hey, you know, this is something I want to do. Can you, like, be on my team about it? And she didn't like it. And then you know what I did almost in a snap, like, hey, we're breaking up. We're breaking up. I was not expecting for us to break up on that call. I was not expecting that. And we broke up.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:21] Okay.

Paul Martinez [00:44:22] My family, they did not approve. They were unhappy with it.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] Did they say why?

Paul Martinez [00:44:28] Because it's not a true gospel. It's not the gospel of Christ. It's not his. They attended anyway. So that was really nice of them to do, but they did not approve.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] I should have asked this earlier, but knowing that you drilled deep and read the Book of Mormon and have Mexican American background, is that right? What did you internalize about the Book of Mormon Lamanite kind of narrative?

Paul Martinez [00:44:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] Did you have thoughts about the dark skin curse in the Book of Mormon and your ancestors being defined as Lamanites for you, which would make you a descendant of the Lamanites. Did any of that come into your mind space during this time?

Paul Martinez [00:45:14] It did.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] The.

Paul Martinez [00:45:17] The curse. I did read that in the Book of Mormon. It did not hit me as a kind of a toxin, you know, it was. It was biblical language, you know, and it just happened to have happened, you know, part of his plan. I did proudly accept the Lamanite heritage. Yeah, like, those are my people. And this Book of Mormon was written for them and for me, you know, so it was personal, you know, like, hey, this book, you know, is for me. It's true. And proud to be a part of this plan to preach this gospel. Okay.

Serving a Mission as a New Convert

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Around what year were you baptized?

Paul Martinez [00:46:00] I was baptized 2006. April.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] Okay. All right. So how long between your baptism and your mission?

Paul Martinez [00:46:16] Yeah, I wanted to do the mission thing even before baptism, and I went to the bishop's office, and I'm like, hey, what do I got to do to do this thing? He says, hey, you gotta be a member for a year. I'm like, all right, let's do it. And baptized April. And I was in the mtc June, June of next the following year. I was in it to win it, brother.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Were you raised dual language?

Paul Martinez [00:46:43] Spanish was my first language as a child.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] Okay.

Paul Martinez [00:46:46] And I forgot it. Lived with dad, and he spoke. Spoke English. He became mainstream very quickly.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:53] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [00:46:54] So I forgot it.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Okay. So you weren't dual language?

Paul Martinez [00:46:57] No.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Okay. Okay. So where'd you get. What'd you get called?

Paul Martinez [00:47:01] That's right. So, you know, submit the papers, you know, get the envelope, call the friends, open the envelope, and it's. It's Buenos Aires. Buenos Aires, Argentina.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] Oh, okay.

Paul Martinez [00:47:15] And, you know, everyone was excited, foreign mission. And it's like, I didn't know foreign was, like, cool, you know, versus stateside or whatever. And I'm like, hey, man, I'm just. I'm happy to preach the gospel wherever. And that was so real, you know, I wasn't trying to virtue signal like, you know, I'll go wherever he needs me to go. And so it was Buenos Aires, Argentina, started learning a little more about their culture, who they're all about. And, yeah, you know, I dropped off at the airport a couple months later by dad, by my dad and sister, and I still see them in my mind's eye as I. I'm going up the escalator and saying bye.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] You know, this lax.

Paul Martinez [00:47:59] Pretty sure it was lax. Yeah. And, man, it was starting to hit me like, you know, you. You're gonna be gone, you know, it's gonna be a Solo journey for a bit. Yeah. So arrive at the mtc, and something terrified me. At the mtc, I dropped off, you see all these kiddos, parents, you know, waving them off. And I was used to this, John. Being a loner, you know, activities and stuff at school. Everyone else's parents showed up, not mine. Par for the course. Like, didn't even bother me. And then they kick it off. I forget who it was. Mission president, you know, I forget how many thousands of us there were in the auditorium. And he gives a really inspirational speech, you know, part of God's army. You know, X number of missionaries have been here before you. You're part of this next great wave. And something really odd happened afterwards where we're like. We're all lined up, or we get called and I'm put in a room with one of the MTC priests and leaders, and he hands me a sheet of paper, and it's a scripture or a quote from a general authority. And it's about sexual purity. And as I read it, my heart. It sank. My heart sinks as I read this. And I go, oh, shit. Like, oh, shit. And it was something to the effect of, you know, purity as a missionary and sexual sin. And I'm like, oh, my God, they know. They know. Right before being set apart as a missionary, maybe the day before, if not maybe two days before, I had a sexual experience with someone. It felt great, you know, doing it, you know, felt like I was shooting heroin and. But I felt like shit afterwards, too. So many people had rooted me on, and I had. I had kept the rules, man. I had done all the things. Like, I was good, and I fucked up that night. I did. And I'm like, damn, you know, I have that paper. And he says, read it. You gotta read it. And I read it. My heart's pounding, and I feel so small. And he says, hey, is there anything we need to talk about?

John Dehlin [00:51:05] Is this your branch president in the mcc or.

Paul Martinez [00:51:08] I don't remember. I don't think it was. Maybe. Okay. But he was definitely leadership.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] Yeah. And usually you're organized into branches and there's a branch president that might be who you would confess to.

Paul Martinez [00:51:21] It was. He was absolutely soliciting a confession.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Martinez [00:51:27] And I lied, John. I lied and I said no. And my heart sank when I said that. And I felt so small.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] But, you know, I don't know if you would have known this at the time, but you would have been probably sent home in disgrace if you had confessed.

Paul Martinez [00:51:43] I knew I would be in big trouble. You Know, big trouble. And most importantly, I. I cared about. I did care a lot about God, you know, and being honest with him and authentic with him. Cause part of me is like, he's given me so much. He's given me so much. And you just lied. Like, how can you do that? I felt so ashamed. And I carried that. I took that so personally, you know, that sexual experience, it was a big taint on my soul. And I wondered, like, hey, is this going to affect, you know, if your mission counts? You know, are these two years a giant fraud? And are you going to be called out in the great eternities and be like, hey, this dude right here. Yeah, you lied. You know, and all your baptisms, they don't count. And all these people down, you know, down the line. Yeah, like, they're not going to get what they deserve because of you. And it was so tragic and painful, but I had to hide it. I had to carry it. There was no way I was going to go back home. No way.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:53] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] It's just too. It's too shameful for so many.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:59] So did you compartmentalize it? Just kind of, like, how would you describe how you carried it?

Paul Martinez [00:53:04] And I did. I managed at times to compartmentalize it, or rather most of the time. But there were times where something triggering would happen, and, man, it would hit me so hard. It would hit me so hard. As a missionary, John, I killed it. I killed it because I believed, you know, when you believe, you're unstoppable. I put a lot of missionaries, I put them to shame. You know, I'm over here, like, man, like, this is the Lord's time. Like, you got to get up, you know, you got to do the things, dude. Like, we got to study. Like, there are people waiting out there for us. We need quality lessons. You know, we got to be in sync. We need the Holy Ghost spreader, like. Or Elder. We got to do it. And I was just sticking the mud for a lot of these. I was. But a lot of them would later tell me. They'd write notes. They'd tell me after transfers, you know, in the zone meetings. He'd be like, hey, you know, Elder Martinez, like. Like, I needed that. You know, you were an inspiration to me, and I love that. I love being an inspiration. I loved having a testimony. It was real. I felt so powerful, and I preached. I saw souls, you know, I love these people. The gospel, it changed me. It really did. I went from jaded, suspicious to like, hey, let's see what this soul's all about, sit down, you know, tell us your story and the gospel. Like, I knew it was gonna work for him. Like, hey, I got this thing. Like, it's gonna help you get ready. Yeah, like, and, and like, hey, we're like, we're servants of God, you know, we're kiddos, but we were sent here by God like we were. And if you, if you hear us out, come to church with us, you pray. Like, I promise you, this is going to change your life. It's changed mine. You know, I talk about all my sacrifice. I was proud. I was proud for what I had given up. You know, I could feel the Savior, like, yeah, you know, I'm nodding his head, you know, faithful servant, you know, I'm so proud of you, you know, I would feel it. I loved it. I love preaching this gospel, man. It was the best.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] And you know, the Mormon Church has a history of very high baptism numbers in Central and South America and the Philippines and now Africa, but with very low retention rates because, you know, it's pretty, it was pretty easy. I went to Guatemala. It's pretty easy to get a 8 year old or a 10 year old kid from a barrio into the baptism waters. So, I mean, you could get 10 or more baptisms a month in many Latin American missions. Was your mission set up that way? High baptism numbers kind of thing? High pressure, high numbers.

Paul Martinez [00:56:04] So in brief, no, not really. And the reason was, is Argentina culturally is very different from the rest of South America in that they were far more suspicious, jaded, a history of corruption, and it was harder, it was a lot harder to talk to them. They were not as willing to let us in. The Chileans, the Paraguayos, other total, complete opposite. Hey, come on in, here's a Quilmes. You know, we don't drink, but it was easy with them. They loved meeting with us. Open hearted Argentines, not so much. You know, a lot of crime. I was accosted or robbed some 10 times.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] Whoa.

Paul Martinez [00:56:50] You know, it was, it was the naivete, you know, autism. You're so naive, you know, you're not going around thinking people have ulterior motives. You know, you take people at their word. You do. You could see them holding a bag, you know, a classic money bags, robber situation. You know, running out of bank with a gun and be like, hey, I'm just taking out a loan. I'd be like, okay, well that's weird, you got a gun and you know, bag of cash. But all right, whatever. You know, there must be an explanation and it's that Kind of naivete, you know, I had super dangerous. You know, what do you say where you were robbed?

John Dehlin [00:57:30] Were you ever robbed, like at knife point or gunpoint?

Paul Martinez [00:57:33] Yeah, I had. I had at least one gun pulled on me. That scared the shit out of me, you know, that feeling of terror I have, I'd felt it before as a child with my dad, where you're like. Like, you might die, you know, like. And if you felt it, your whole body shrinks, it sinks, and you're just like, oh, my God. Like, this. This might be it. You know, I had one experience like that, and it scared the shit out of me. It really did. It affected me. I'm sorry, what was the original question, John?

John Dehlin [00:58:10] So, no, I think you covered it. Okay, so you had a successful mission and we're in it to win it, and we're obedient and hardworking.

Paul Martinez [00:58:20] Yeah, man. I was branch president. I was branch president and I loved it. I love to serve. I loved my congregation. If I could bring up one part of the mission I really didn't like, and kind of speaking to numbers and high pressure. I hated the high pressure component to it. I hated the numbers component to it. You know, every night, call from the district leader. How many contacts did you do? How many lessons did you do? We had a switch in mission presidents, and this new mission president started publishing everyone's numbers for the mission. So every six weeks, publication for the mission, everyone's numbers on the. For the companionship.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Like a newsletter kind of thing. It's a monthly, monthly newsletter.

Paul Martinez [00:59:02] And it's like, hey, these two missionaries, they got the 12, six, man. You did not want to be on the zeros. Zeros are one monthly baptism for transfer.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Oh, okay.

Paul Martinez [00:59:12] Yeah, Yeah, I hated that. As a matter of fact, I discouraged some baptisms from happening. There was one. There was one counselor. His dad. There's a ward bishop's counselor. His dad wanted him to get baptized. And I do the interview with him. Right. I was a district leader, interviewed him, and I'm like, hey, he's not ready. He's not ready for baptism. Like, we're not doing it. And I called it off.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Meaning he wasn't like, a genuine convert yet.

Paul Martinez [00:59:39] He had not. I felt that he had not learned enough about the gospel to commit to it. You know, again, like, this is for real. You're not going to sign at the dotted line without reading it, you know, Like, I didn't walk away thinking he understood.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] Because you would have been comparing people to your conversion experience. Right, Right.

Paul Martinez [00:59:56] Well, yeah, I did not know that numbers were a real, real thing. I just thought they were, like, getting pushed. I'm like, nah, I don't buy this. This isn't for me. You know, I complied. I did the things, but I made sure they were quality. And if there wasn't quality, I wouldn't do it. Like, screw that. You know? You know, ultimately I report to the savior. You know, you guys can get mad at me all you want, but I don't care. You know, I'm going to do what's right. And it's that black and white thinking, and it can get you in trouble, John, with Power Dynamics.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] It sure can.

Paul Martinez [01:00:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] I totally relate. Yeah.

The Mission Through a Neurodivergent Lens

Margi Dehlin [01:00:34] Can I ask you a couple questions through a neurodivergent lens about your mission?

Paul Martinez [01:00:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:40] So the first thing is, you know, you referred to, I think, referring to your brain and how it works, someone robbing a bank with a bag and a gun and how for you. And I think you talked about it like being naive in quotation marks. But really, if we were going to break it down, is it that your brain actually values information differently? It values the information of what people say more than these other. So someone might judge that as naive, but really, isn't it a different brain? It's a different brain in how it weighs information.

Paul Martinez [01:01:24] Absolutely. And that's why, you know, I prefer neurodivergent. Like, hey, I value this more than this.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:29] That's right.

Paul Martinez [01:01:30] And I tell people, hey, words, for me, they're so much easier than like, facial expressions.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:35] Right.

Paul Martinez [01:01:35] You know, a lot of these things are cultural. Like, dude, just use the words.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:39] Right? You know, it's not a choice. It's the way your brain functions. It's the way it's maybe your default setting.

Paul Martinez [01:01:46] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, I learned eventually to try to read, but it's a really unnatural experience. I have to force it.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:54] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:01:54] And I still get it wrong. You know, I still get it wrong. But for me, the words. The words are what govern. Right. So I need to hear the words.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:02] Yeah. I think that's important to kind of for people to understand. And then also the other question I had is for many people, going on a mission is kind of this next level experience when it comes to rules and control. And, you know, you've stated that for you, oftentimes the rules part and ritual and those things can be really like things that you like. How was a mission for you on this next level of rules? And how did you experience it for your brain?

Paul Martinez [01:02:36] Absolutely. It was. It was a blessing and a curse. And it was a blessing because it was so easy to follow. 6:30, you wake up, you know, doo, doo, doo, I'm up. You're exercising till seven. And I would do it to the dot, you know, wait for that beep, boom, it's seven. All right. I think it was personal study, all right, Eight to nine, companionship study, you know, Then we get ready and we're out the door at a given time, you know, down to, like, getting ready. Hey, it takes three minutes from end of this to out the door. Like, let's go with lessons. Hey, our lessons are 60 minutes maximum. And then we're out the door and do not do it. I wouldn't care, you know? You know, a lot of people, they like to chat. They want to be the missionaries. But I'd be like, hey, you know, we got to teach you this thing. Like, we're out. Like, we're out of here. And sometimes I just leave, like, hey, you know, we gotta go. We got. We got some things to do. The problem was when I didn't comply and I missed something, right? And there were times I would be late, like a minute. We're supposed to be back by nine, 9:30 for teaching a lesson. One time, I still remember this. I was back at like 9:31, and I'm running, I'm gunning it, and I get through those doors. I look at the clock, I'm like, damn. Like, damn it. Like, we missed it. And then I get this feeling it would just overcome me and they'd be so powerful. Like, you, you did it wrong. You did it wrong. And the feelings were really intense. You know, the ADHD probably played a role with the black and white thinking, right? This is the time you come back, you know, period. Done. End of story. And that's how I lived. So I love the structure. But, man, when I would get it wrong, I felt so bad, especially as branch president, because I felt like I had other people's souls in my hands, right? So that rule book, man, I read it. I read. I followed those rules. You know, this is what the Lord wants. We're doing it this way. And there were a couple times I messed up, and I'm like, damn, you know, does this count? Does this count in heaven? You know, do I tell the member? Because then they might lose confidence. We want him. We want him in the church ultimately.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] Yeah. For those who don't know, a branch president is comparable to being a bishop or in the Catholic Church, a priest or an evangelical church, a pastor. And it's rare for a Mormon missionary at age 19 or 20 to be called as a branch president. But it happens. I was a branch president twice, actually. And it puts you in a weird position because you may have members confessing adultery to you or financial fraud. I had to have a disciplinary council where we excommunicated a former branch president, you know, and it's just. It puts a kid in a. In a very serious, heavy leadership position before they've even ever really probably dated much or gotten married, let alone had kids, you know, let alone had a chance to commit adultery. You know what I'm saying?

Paul Martinez [01:05:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] So it's a level of intensity that many, most Mormon missionaries never have to experience.

Paul Martinez [01:05:40] Yeah, I did feel embarrassed at times when grandparents would come to me, you know, be like, hey, I'm having this problem with my kid. You know, can you help me out? But here's the thing. We both believed in the spirit, you know, hey, if we're both doing it right, like, God will let us know. And I love seeing that. That just. They believed. It was so refreshing and rewarding and fulfilling to see that.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] Yeah. Yeah. It's an incredible leadership opportunity, but also a lot of pressure. And the final thing I'll say is you're not just worrying about how many baptisms you have in your area. You're worrying about your congregation, the attendance levels every Sunday. You're in charge of making sure the church is all set up for sacrament meeting and for Relief Society and Sunday school and the youth programs in the midweek. So it's a lot. I just had to say that. Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:38] Just before we move on, I was going to ask you really quickly. That voice in your head, I mean, I think with, like, parts work, we could call it like a part. The part that was really aggressive toward you in your head, the part that was really critical of you. Would you say that that part was awake and alive during your mission time? Or had it faded and even through joining the church, had it quieted that part, at least for a time? Tell me just really quickly what that. How joining the church, going on a mission affected that part.

Paul Martinez [01:07:17] The kind of the negative self talk. The gospel managed to curb a lot of it. You know, it healed me. It healed me. And unfortunately, that sexual encounter, though, it would come back. You know, when I was praying, you know, parent comes to me, I have problem A. Can you help me out? Sure. Let me go pray as I'm praying, you know, am I going to get a real answer?

John Dehlin [01:07:41] Or will my sins, my unrepented sins distort the Holy Ghost's ability to reach me. So I won't get the inspiration I need to make the right decision. Right?

Paul Martinez [01:07:52] Yeah. And like, man, like, I'm in charge of these people, you know, like, it has to be true. I need to do it right. But it was too late. I ain't confessing. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:01] You know, did it make you feel. Did it bring up kind of that fear of you being unlovable again because you had made a mistake, or did that not enter back in?

Paul Martinez [01:08:11] Oh, absolutely. It was so intense when it would happen, it would happen and all those feelings would rush back, you know, it was terrible. And it's like, you shouldn't be here. You should confess. You're screwing this congregation right now. It's not going to count. And it was, when it would happen. It was intense.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Anything else you want to share about your mission before we go to post mission?

Paul Martinez [01:08:37] I love my mission. You know, I was so proud you

John Dehlin [01:08:40] fulfilled a two year, full year, honorable mission.

Paul Martinez [01:08:43] Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] Good for you.

Paul Martinez [01:08:44] Super proud, man.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] And did Spanish come easier to you than the gringos, your fellow gringos or not?

Paul Martinez [01:08:50] It did. You know, it was humiliating to have the elder Martinez name tag and be like, you know, soya el mucenero.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] It was such a joke because people would look at you and assume you spoke.

Paul Martinez [01:09:02] Oh, yeah. They're like, why is your gringo guy speaking better than you here, bud? And it was a humiliation. And, yeah, I worked on that one pretty hard. So within six months, pretty good conversational. Within a year, you know, not fluent, but pretty close. We're like, all right, homeboys from around here.

John Dehlin [01:09:21] Well, that's good because the Argentine accent's different than the, you know, even the Central American accent.

Paul Martinez [01:09:27] Oh, yeah, it is. They're proud of that, right? Yeah, right. You know? Oh, man, all the things. It was fun. It was really fun to learn the accent. I still love using it, you know, throwing it around every once in a while.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] Hey, would you feel comfortable bearing your testimony in Spanish as you would have as a missionary?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:45] You could even just say a few things if you don't recall.

Paul Martinez [01:09:47] I'll try. Okay. It's been a while, but bear in

John Dehlin [01:09:51] mind, I'll help you. It starts out with Jose.

Paul Martinez [01:09:53] Yeah. Okay, let me introduce myself first. The Jeso Cristo de los Santos de los Otimos Dias aqui para ensign. So lost the Argentine accent there, man. But yeah, thank you for that.

John Dehlin [01:10:41] That's beautiful. Oh, yeah. Okay, so you come home. Is that next?

Coming Home, Marriage, and Early Post-Mission Life

Paul Martinez [01:10:47] I come home and did your parents

John Dehlin [01:10:50] did your dad write you on your mission? Did your family stay in touch with you?

Paul Martinez [01:10:54] No.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] Did your church friends from USC stay in touch with you?

Paul Martinez [01:10:59] They did, yeah. Yeah. They would try to convert your ex

John Dehlin [01:11:01] girlfriend, I guess, while you're on your mission, did you write your family?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:06] Oh.

Paul Martinez [01:11:07] Oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] Did you stay in touch with students at USC or your ex girlfriend?

Paul Martinez [01:11:11] I would stay in touch with that one friend, primarily from Studio, taught me. Yeah, from Studio. But the ward would rotate. It was a great assignment. They would write, you know, someone would. From the ward, right. To the missionaries for that week. And that was really cool, too. But, you know, family. No, not really. I didn't reach out to them and they didn't reach out to me for the most part.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] So it probably drove a wedge between you and your dad.

Paul Martinez [01:11:41] My dad didn't really care. You know, relatively aloof, but yes, with my aunts. My aunts did not approve and it did strain the relationship.

John Dehlin [01:11:55] Okay. Okay. So you come home, I come home,

Paul Martinez [01:12:03] you know, superstar, you know, did the thing. Did it right. Did a great job.

John Dehlin [01:12:07] Returned with honor.

Paul Martinez [01:12:08] Returned with honor, baby. And I was so proud of that, you know, like, I made it. Yeah, I made it. And time to get married, you know, what's next? Marriage, baby. And I had dated someone for a tad before the mission, and we decided that we'd end it, come to the mission, and nothing romantic. If it works out afterwards, great. If not, not a big deal, which was great. Removed a distraction and still around after the mission. And I think three weeks later, John, we're engaged.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] Three weeks. What?

Paul Martinez [01:12:49] Yeah, some three weeks could have been more than a month. We had a date and. Pretty fast. Pretty fast even for Mormon standards, I think.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:13:00] Yeah. But it was the next thing to do, right? And it could have been the ADHD as well. When you know something is next, it's all you can think about, you know, so it's like marriage, marriage, marriage. We gotta do it. Let's do it. Well, what are we waiting for? It's the right thing to do. So we put it on the calendar. I think we changed the date once. I moved it back a little more so more people could come. But the engagement was super fast. And then we get married. Married in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] So were you 23?

Paul Martinez [01:13:31] I was. I believe I was 23. Yeah, 23.

John Dehlin [01:13:36] And LA Temple, San Diego Temple, Louisiana.

Paul Martinez [01:13:38] Temple. Okay. LA Temple. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:42] Okay. Wow. Yeah, that's. That's zero to 60 and three seconds as a Mormon convert, right?

Paul Martinez [01:13:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] And none of your family would have been able to Attend the temple.

Paul Martinez [01:13:55] They did not.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] Marriage.

Paul Martinez [01:13:57] Oh, no, John, let me take it back. I'm sorry. I attended the LA Temple. It was Salt Lake. We got married in Salt Lake. I take it back. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Still no family attended your wedding, right?

Paul Martinez [01:14:07] Absolutely not. We've been all, you're not interested in the church and they would have sat outside anyway.

John Dehlin [01:14:12] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:14:13] What's the point?

John Dehlin [01:14:15] Imagine that everybody, like you've converted to a high demand religion. You go on a mission, you get married and literally no one from your family is at your wedding. It's all the. The bride's family. You're not even in the same state you are from, but you've got no family at your wedding. It's kind of a weird, severe thing that maybe people don't realize about Mormonism. How was that for you? Or were you loving it because you were following God's path?

Paul Martinez [01:14:41] Oh, man. It was.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] Maybe you didn't care.

Paul Martinez [01:14:43] It was the thing. That's what's next. You're doing it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] Yeah, but that says something about how high demand religions can divide family. Because not only did you have no family at your wedding, you didn't even feel sad about it. Right. Or maybe notice, really.

Paul Martinez [01:14:58] No, it was par for the course. Like they're not going to be there, they're not interested. Time to move on, really.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:06] It feels layered to me because it's your family system and family culture as well as then the layer of Mormonism and how they divide as well. Right. But it seems like you had sort of some of those expectations laid early of not maybe. Am I saying that in an incorrect way?

Paul Martinez [01:15:26] No, no, that's fair. Because that was my life. That was my life growing up. Again, my dad was a recluse. I was not allowed to speak to my, you know, other family.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:33] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:15:34] So they didn't attend. My dad didn't attend. If he did, he was super late.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] You weren't reconciled with your. Oh, did you reconcile with your mom?

Paul Martinez [01:15:41] Ah, yes. This is really important. Thank you for bringing that up.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] Okay.

Paul Martinez [01:15:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before your mission. Before the mission. No, this is, this is really important. Is. Yeah. So parental alienation, divorce, starting at 11 or 12 years old. I don't see my mom, you know, I miss her to death and I was tortured for it. And shortly before the mission, you know, member tells me, hey, like if you're going to be going out there, you know, preaching about families being forever and how important they are, like you got to reconcile with your mom, you have to. And it's true. I believed it. It was the next thing to do. And I think I reached out to one of my sisters. I'm like, hey, I'm going to reach out to mom, you know, can you let her know what's her number? And we set up a meeting. We met. We met at Tito's Tacos in la. I know your listeners have heard of it. Santa Monica might be in the border. Santa Monica and la? Yeah, it's pretty close.

John Dehlin [01:16:43] I think I've been there.

Paul Martinez [01:16:44] You probably have, yeah. We had gone there a lot when I was a kid. Just super symbolic place to go. Really symbolic.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] You'd been there with your mom as a kid?

Paul Martinez [01:16:56] Yeah, mom and dad. It was a family thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:58] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:16:59] So, hey, let's meet at Tito's. And I saw my mom, she was sitting at the same, you know, same table we would sit at, you know, walk through those doors and I'm like, hey, you know, it's your kiddo, it's me, Polito. Last time she'd seen me, I was 11. Maybe here I am, what, 20, 21 years old. You know, it breaks my heart to think that ever happened. You know, I have an 11 year old now. And to think if he turned his back on me, refused to see me, and then to see him as a 21 year old, like, man, the church did that, John. Okay. If it weren't for the church, that would have never happened. So again, like, another testimony to me,

John Dehlin [01:17:44] like, oh, the church helped you reconcile with me.

Paul Martinez [01:17:46] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] So that's a positive thing the church did?

Paul Martinez [01:17:48] Oh, absolutely. The church, man, it put so many things together for me, you know, it did me a solid. Yeah, it's true, John.

John Dehlin [01:17:56] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So what do you say to your mom when you haven't seen her for 10 years and you converted to the Mormon Church and you're going on a mission?

Paul Martinez [01:18:07] It was tough, you know, what do you say? And I think I might have said something like, hey, mom, you know, going on a mission. And I figured it'd be a good idea for us to, you know, to chat and try to restore the relationship.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:26] So at this point, when you're meeting her, are you still believing the narrative that your dad gave you, or have you started to question that narrative and see her in a different way?

Paul Martinez [01:18:39] I'm questioning it, absolutely. And even then, you know, maybe I kind of believed it. I still wanted to talk to her, like, hey, is this true? You know, let's chat and figure out what's going on. I felt the conditioning, though. Okay. I walked through those doors like there's mom, you know, and again, those two mandates of the same polarity, Like I felt the. I felt that urge to just turn around, walk away. I have to fight it. And I did. Yeah, no, that conditioning was deep. Yes, it was deep. But the church, man, it helped me power through it.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] Now those teachings of Christ, like forgiveness can come in handy.

Paul Martinez [01:19:21] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:23] And was your mom happy to reconcile with you?

Paul Martinez [01:19:25] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it was, it was great. You know, I'm so glad we did it, you know, it was, you know, bummer happens. But, you know, these things happen. Every life has its traumas.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:19:39] And it's. And it's reconciliations.

John Dehlin [01:19:43] Did she write you on your mission? Did you call her?

Paul Martinez [01:19:45] She did. She wrote me a couple times. She would write me for major holidays, you know, Christmas. It was hard. It was hard to see her writing, you know, again. Fighting a lot of that conditioning. And I'd read it like, hey, Polito, you know Spanish, of course. And you know, love you and you know, stay safe.

John Dehlin [01:20:04] Yeah, you know, what'd she call you again?

Paul Martinez [01:20:07] So, first name's Paul, you know, Polito.

John Dehlin [01:20:10] So I'm thinking Pablo Pablito.

Paul Martinez [01:20:12] You know, I dodged that bullet. I think it's because it was my dad's name.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] So. Okay. Okay. Yeah, Paulito.

Paul Martinez [01:20:18] Just Polito. P, O, L. Polito.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] Okay. Yeah, Beautiful. Okay. Okay. So you come home. So your, your mom didn't come to your marriage either.

Paul Martinez [01:20:28] Your wedding, no income.

John Dehlin [01:20:30] Okay. But at least you're reconciled.

Paul Martinez [01:20:33] Yeah, reconciled. Some siblings came, which is great. Oh, okay. Yeah. So a couple siblings came out to meet the drive, but they didn't get

John Dehlin [01:20:39] to attend the service.

Paul Martinez [01:20:42] Now they sat out on the steps

John Dehlin [01:20:43] of the temple while you were married. And that is a very. I mean, we don't like to use the C word, the cult word on Mormon stories, but prohibiting, you know, non orthodox Mormon family members or non LDS family members from attending weddings is one of the worst and most cult like things about Mormonism, I'd have to say. But that's just me.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:14] That is just. That is you. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:17] So, okay, so had you graduated from USC by the time you were married?

Paul Martinez [01:21:23] No, I had graduated. I think it was a third year architecture student. Yeah, and we had a kiddo that last year.

John Dehlin [01:21:31] So you had a baby soon after getting married?

Paul Martinez [01:21:33] Yeah, two and a half years later maybe.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:36] So you had school, marriage and a baby?

Paul Martinez [01:21:40] And a baby. And I was working 20 hours a week at one point in a different county. Yeah, super busy.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] Okay.

Paul Martinez [01:21:46] But, you know, but proud to bring a little, you know, Spirit into the earth and like, you know, family is something I'd always wanted, you know, and couldn't wait. Couldn't wait to have a kiddo, you know, and be a powerful leader, you know, that's something the church really taught me as well. Priesthood leadership, man. I had great priesthood leaders, okay. I know some have had some bad experiences. Not me. I love sitting down with them, you know, they were always really positive experiences. I'd walk away, you know, walking out those doors, like empowered with a mission and a plan, you know, These were the parents, the dads I never had. And I was excited to model and emulate that, you know, for my kid and to have the gospel while doing it, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:32] Did you feel too. Did you notice that? You felt maybe that you had, I don't. Maybe like a secret to. To give you, like the family you never had. Kind of like, I'm gonna do it, right? I'm gonna. And. And did you feel that kind of arise in you as you started your family, this sense of like. And that maybe you even had the power to do it because you had the gospel?

Paul Martinez [01:23:00] Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I was looking forward to breaking the cycle. You know, it's like someone has to do it, you know, and I'm gonna do it. You know, it's gonna be expensive, it's gonna be a lot of work, but I have the gospel, you know, that was my secret weapon. Loved having it. It was a game changer for me, you know, affection. Showing affection was a big deal, okay? And I was bent on showing these kids, you know, how much their dad loved them. And the message is always like, dad's there for you. You know, dad will always be there for you. And I was excited to show affection, you know, to show it, to receive it, you know, the mission taught me actually a lot about brotherly affection. That was a game changer for me, you know, a lot of trauma, bonding, but a lot of like, I love yous. And it was genuine. We'd hug each other, you know, mission was painful, you know, a lot of work, a lot of unanswered questions, but there's so much love in it too. Yeah, yeah. So it changed me, the gospel. Jaded, you know, unwilling to show real affection, you know, even to say, you know, I love you. Couldn't do it, couldn't do it.

John Dehlin [01:24:15] How many kids did you end up having in that marriage?

Paul Martinez [01:24:17] So I have three beautiful boys.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] Okay. And how close together were they?

Paul Martinez [01:24:25] Yeah, let's see, I have an 8 year old, 11, 13 year old, almost 9 12, 14 now. Okay. Yeah.

Career, Marriage Struggles, and Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [01:24:34] All right. And just quickly, how did your career go? We'll just give a spoiler alert. The marriage ended. You were married for how many years?

Paul Martinez [01:24:45] It was 12 years.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] Okay, and during those 12 years, how did your career progress and how did your church service progress?

Paul Martinez [01:24:53] Excellent. Yeah, thanks for asking. Career. Killed it with a career man. I picked the right career. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Architecture.

Paul Martinez [01:25:01] Architecture. So I'm an architect, you know, licensed. Took all the tests. Super proud of that. I got the stamp, you know, architecture is a perfect blend of novelty and structure. You know. My special interest, John, is the California building code, baby. I just love reading it, you know, I love reading that.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] You're a nerd.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:22] I love that so much. I love that you would say, I love reading it.

Paul Martinez [01:25:25] I love that damn code book, man.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] Because it's your superpower.

Paul Martinez [01:25:30] Oh, man, it is a superpower. Yeah, yeah. Most people, they hate it. They hate the rules. They do architecture for design. And, you know, I could put a design together. It's just not as fun for me. It's not as a natural experience for me. I'm a project architect. That's the term. I'm nuts and bolts, baby. Like, all right, how's this thing going to get built, you know, tell me about the fire ratings. What's the occupancy load? All the technical. But there's analysis with it, too. And that's where the novelty comes into play. You're a pseudo lawyer. Really, you need to make an argument to the city, like, hey, here's our building. Here's the building code that applies. Here's my analysis. Here's why it works. Here's tell me I'm right. You know, I love it. So I picked the right career. So I'm not necessarily brilliant. It's just, man, it just checks the boxes for me. So I did really well. My claim to fame, it was with another company. So, you know, I don't want to take credit for it, but I was on a team that did one of San Diego's largest projects. $400 million project. And I was a nuts and bolts guy on it, drawing details, putting the drawings together. Eventually I start helping build it. I work with the contractor. He's sending questions my way. And I loved answering those questions. Again, it was novel but structured. New question, here's a process for it. Here's a new question. Process. And again, I just learned so much from it. It was a life changing experience and it opened a lot of doors for me professionally. You know, once you have something like that under Your belt. You're unstoppable.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] So career did quite well.

Paul Martinez [01:27:05] Absolutely. Career has done well. And shall we talk a little bit more about the church?

John Dehlin [01:27:11] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:11] Your faith journey, maybe.

Paul Martinez [01:27:13] All right. So the church did well, John, you know, got some pretty cool callings. I was Sunday school president, going to all the meetings. Elders quorum president. Let's see, I was in the youth program. It was so cool to be trusted.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] You were a young men leader.

Paul Martinez [01:27:34] I was not a leader. I was in leadership. Yeah. I was always in some form of leadership. Oh, ward mission leader. Of course. I was a ward mission leader.

John Dehlin [01:27:43] Put the convert in.

Paul Martinez [01:27:44] Convert in, baby. Yeah, he's on fire. You know, he's on fire. And it was true. And again, like, I took those callings seriously. I did read the manuals. Like, we got souls, brothers. Like, let's go. You know, we have things to do. And thing is. Thing is, is novelty. Novelty, right. There comes a point where I feel like I've heard this before, you know, I've heard this before, all right? And I start to get bored. I start to get bored. I'm like, what's this talk about obedience? Okay. What's this lesson on prayer, how good it is? Okay. Living prophets, do we have them? I think I've heard this one before.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] Priesthood authority.

Paul Martinez [01:28:31] Priesthood authority, you know, and what was interesting, too is I already knew a lot of this stuff, you know, because I'm reading this stuff already, you know, love to read.

John Dehlin [01:28:40] I mean, if you read the institute manuals, that's pretty much all you'll ever learn for the rest of your life as a Mormon, right?

Paul Martinez [01:28:47] Pretty much.

John Dehlin [01:28:49] Sunday school won't go any deeper.

Paul Martinez [01:28:51] Oh, no, no. Sunday, that's confirmed. So you're right. Sunday school is going to be even more superficial. Yeah, right. My joy was. Was teaching and helping people. That was a blessing in an honor. I loved it. Participating in a meaningful way in people's lives. It was the lessons. Some of those meetings, man, priesthood meeting, world Council, they became a chore. They became extremely repetitive. I didn't mind the structure. I love that they were at the same time, same place, you know, same time of the week. Even loved an agenda again, right? Answers the question, what's next? But we were talking about the same stupid things. Every time I joined one ward where I get a leadership calling right away. I love that, you know, Paul shows up, you know, hey, he's got a great history. Put him in leadership, and within three weeks, I'm attending a ward council. And, man, this ward council, there was. There was Backbiting. A lot of passive aggressive remarks. People would fawn what the bishop would say. Bishop recommends, oh, great idea, Bishop. Let's do it. You know, what do you think? Oh, I think that's a great idea. And you know, Paul says what he means and he means what he says. You know, that's the autistic person in me.

John Dehlin [01:30:17] It's weird that we pathologize that.

Paul Martinez [01:30:19] Yeah, I know, right? That's why it's not fair.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] We should be passive aggression. And you've already said this before today, but passive aggression is normalized and somehow healthy.

Paul Martinez [01:30:30] Yeah, baby. And that's why, like, I'm neurodivergent, brother, you know, don't put me in the DSM 5. Like, that's not cool. And so, you know, I'd speak my mind and I'd be like, hey, Bishop, I've heard this before and these are the problems you're going to run into, right? You got low attendance here. We don't have a space for it. What are volunteers number look like? And I'm super logistics about it, you know? You know, tell me who's going to do it, when are they going to do it? How long is it going to take to do it? Are we going to have to set up cones? I see this thing running its course.

John Dehlin [01:31:04] You're a project manager, you know.

Paul Martinez [01:31:06] Yeah, like, I got to see this through. Like, I need really, I need real answers. And I started to hear a lot of bogus answers. You know, at first I was able to just ignore it. You know, we have, you know, we'll find a way. But there came a point where like, no, I need a real answer to these things. And I became, gosh, what's the term? I Not popular. I was not popular in ward council. At one point, Bishop calls me aside, says, hey, Paul, you know, we're noticing some, like, negativity here, you know, and when I say something, it kind of goes. And I'm like, well, why didn't you just say that? Why are you asking like it's a question when in reality you're telling. And I miss a lot of that. Right. Autism.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:06] It's a valid question.

Paul Martinez [01:32:07] Well, I think it's fair, right? I think it's fair. But most neurotypicals, they don't work that way. You know, I've learned that they don't work that way. It's still super hard for me to accept, but it's a part of the. It's part of the culture really. The Mormon culture is passive aggression. You Avoid direct feedback. You avoid hurting feelings. It's all about being pleasant and, you know, make sure the spirit doesn't leave. Which is strange again, because that world council, it was dysfunctional, so I saw a lot of dysfunction. I'm like, this ain't inspired. I don't see the inspiration. I see a lot of weird cultural things with, like, kissing leadership's butt and I'm getting in trouble. Like, I'm getting in trouble. I have ideas for the elders. I was the elders quorum president, and programs were coming through from Salt Lake, and I see these things. You know, we would meet at, like, a stake leadership meeting, and I'd be like, this doesn't work. This doesn't work for my elders. You know, raise my hand. Hey, there are only, like, five of us attending. Like, how do you expect us to do this? You know, hey, elder, you got to pray. You got to make it happen. And I'm thinking, like, that's not what my elders need, okay? They need to be at home with their families, okay? They're stressing the hell out. The gospel asks for a lot, and I'm hearing what they have to say. Like, I'm actually checking in with these people. I'm not there to direct. I'm there to help.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] Support.

Paul Martinez [01:33:38] Yeah, I'm here to support. You know, I thought that's what these callings were for, ultimately. Like, you're there to help, you know, spirits and souls find meaning in what they're doing. And even if they don't accept the gospel, they're still a soul, right? They're still a human being. You got to treat them right. There was one experience, John, that really struck a chord with me. I was given an assignment to visit a less active person, and I sent them a text. You know, hey, when can I come over? And I got back one of the nastiest, most visceral responses, and it scared me. Like, oh, my God. Like, this person's really upset. I report back to World Council. I share like, hey, guys, like, look at what's happening with our reactivation efforts here. Look at this text. And I read it, and then someone laughed. They laughed, and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, all these things happen. You know, don't worry about it. And I'm like, no. Like, this hurt them. Like this, really? This was a wound. Like, I could tell by the message. We didn't just annoy them, okay? Like, this was a real hurt for this person. And they wrote it off like, ah, you know, just try again in six months. And that really pissed me off. That really pissed me off. And I'm starting to notice, like, okay, this isn't about genuine meaningful help for, you know, God's children. This is about numbers. You know, did you contact the person? It almost doesn't even matter what they said. It's like, did you reach out to them? You know, more programs are coming through and I'm like, this doesn't work. We don't need this. And I was pissing off the wrong people and I got in trouble.

Losing Faith and Discovering Church History

John Dehlin [01:35:41] Do you remember around what year it was that you started having this disaffection?

Paul Martinez [01:35:45] This was about 2012. Okay, 2012, new wardrobe, new dynamic. So I think the dysfunction I saw along with desperately kind of seeking novelty, I started to, you know, I started to think, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe these programs, maybe they're not inspired. Maybe these are, you know, programs people put together, roll the dice, hopefully it works. But man, that thought scared the shit out of me, you know, because when

John Dehlin [01:36:28] you joined, you assumed what? Or you.

Paul Martinez [01:36:30] Oh, I didn't assume it, John. I knew it.

John Dehlin [01:36:32] You knew what?

Paul Martinez [01:36:33] That everything that the church that came from church leadership was inspired. And if we didn't understand, it's because we just, we weren't doing the right thing yet. You know, we'll get an answer. It'll work out in the end. You know, just do it.

John Dehlin [01:36:48] And maybe this is also an important aspect of autism spectrum disorder and black and white thinking, because there's a lot of believing Mormons that are kind of more liberal, more progressive, but they see the gospel in terms of shades of gray or even multicolored spectrum. So it's not all true or all false, all right or all wrong, all, all inspired or all uninspired. It's, you know, it's a mess. You know, it's sort of that quote we all see through a glass darkly. That's how somebody that was proficient in nuance might approach the gospel. But, and I really relate to this. Cause I was, I think I might qualify for some sort of neurotypical diagnosis because I was always self stimming. I was always chewing on my pencil, I was always chewing on my pen. You know, I was so fidgety that my teachers would punish me for never being able to stay in my seat, you know, but also I was very much a black and white thinker. It was true or false, it was right or wrong. You know, I'm the kid that followed all the rules because you follow all the rules and that's just what you do. It was Never a question. So once I started pulling on the thread, like, it all starts unraveling because it's either all true or it's all false. And so I guess I just am connecting it back to the. To the neurodivergent thing, because I'm thinking in my mind. On the one hand. Wait, Paul, you were just telling us how amazing your missionary conversion experience was, how true it felt, how amazing your mission experience was. So, like, you could endure anything because you just had so much passion for the church. But if it starts ringing as not true and it starts leaning in the false direction, if you're that binary thinker, you go with the false.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:39] Well, that's the question.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] It's all messy. And sometimes the prophets, bishops get it right, and sometimes the prophets and bishops get it wrong. Maybe a neurodivergent brain wouldn't do that. What were you gonna say?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:51] That's my question. So at that point where you're starting to have these experiences, your lived experience of the gospel, Right. Did it flip all of a. Like, what was your experience of being like, wait a second. This. Now, this is not what I thought it was. This does not play into, you know, it being true in the way I've. Was it an immediate flip? Did you. Were you trying to tolerate it and it broke? Like, how would you talk about the experience of it?

Paul Martinez [01:39:25] Yeah, yeah, It was. It was pretty sudden. The. The thoughts like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You know, wait a minute. Maybe. Maybe these are just good people with. With good intentions. And it. But here's the thing. Like, it. That. That thought. It was so intense, and it scared the shit out of me. I had one experience with the bishop, and I knew what he was telling me was not. Was not inspired. I knew it. I knew it wasn't. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Like, oh, my gosh.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:07] You know, did you feel panic?

Paul Martinez [01:40:09] Bishops. Oh, yeah. And I remember sitting there. Here's the thing. I didn't want to freak out. I didn't want him to know that I was freaking out and questioning. And I sat there. It was upsetting to hear what I knew was false. Like, no, bishop, that ain't inspired. I don't want to hear it. It was tough to sit and take it. And I started to have really terrible experiences and feelings of powerlessness, and they started in that office and really in a really intense way, because I could not. I couldn't criticize him anymore. Like, I was getting in trouble. Okay? And he's the priesthood leader. He's in charge. You do what he says. And I'm over here thinking, like, now, homeboy ain't inspired. I don't want to do it, but you have to do it. And it flipped where it was no longer. Do it and have faith. You'll figure it out. It's. You're doing something you don't. You don't really believe in. And it hurts. Okay? Now you're being inauthentic with yourself. Okay? Really hard for a neurodivergent to do that. We are stupid, authentic, okay? But I held it in, you know? It was such an unnatural experience. It shook me, okay? It shook me. And I left his office. I went home. It affected me. My wife saw it, you know, like something happened. You know, the last time I was affected that deeply, it was a sexual assault. Okay? I was shook. That really scared the shit out of me. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And the problem was, like, I had to keep working with him, you know? It is so dangerous to share openly

John Dehlin [01:42:07] share

Paul Martinez [01:42:10] that maybe you don't think this is true, that maybe to even be curious, to entertain that thought. That, like, hey, let's think about what Bishop said. Go home, pray, see if we think it's right. If that's your gospel, you're toast. Okay. Yeah, sure. People will. You ain't gonna get kicked out of church, but you're not getting invited to activities anymore. You'll eventually lose your calling, you know, Won't be sudden, but you ain't getting a, you know, a prestigious calling after that, you know, you ain't going to

John Dehlin [01:42:41] be called back anymore after you report a sexual assault.

Paul Martinez [01:42:44] Oh, no, I'm sorry. No, no, I'm sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:45] I'm talking about once he's identified as

Paul Martinez [01:42:49] a questioning person, identified as a questioner. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you for therapy.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] Once you're flagged as a. Bingo. As a questioner, as a disruptor to the system.

Paul Martinez [01:42:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:59] Quotation marks. Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:43:00] And, hey, man, I did it too, you know, when I was all believing, you know, like, oh, you know, he's starting to question. He's losing the faith is how I had it. He's losing the faith. You know, it's time, like, we have to. What's the term when there's, like, a virus that spreads, you know? Yeah. We have to isolate him, and I didn't want that.

John Dehlin [01:43:25] It's almost like when we talk about neurodivergent people being black and white. I've heard people compare the church to sort of a narcissistic abusive person. But you could also almost compare the church in some ways to a neurodivergent person, because there is that black and white thinking from the Mormon Church perspective. All true, all false. Say what you believe, no matter what. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:54] You mean having a characteristic?

John Dehlin [01:43:57] Yeah, yeah. Having passion for rules, for structure, for order. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:01] So it has characteristics, Maybe, is the way I would say it.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] Yeah. If the church was attracted to you as a neurodivergent person, it must have been, because the church lines up in many ways with the types of things that a neurodivergent person likes.

Paul Martinez [01:44:17] It's true. You know, super structured agenda is corporate. You know, it's super corporate, and I love that.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] Yeah. You know, but the church saw you black and white. Once you start questioning, if you're not with us, you're against us.

Paul Martinez [01:44:31] Yeah, yeah. And here's why, John. Because by the time you get there, okay, you know, you know, floodgates are open at that point. You know, so people worry. I was taught that as a ward mission leader. Right. You know, once you start hearing these kinds of things, you know, Paul, they're pretty much done. They're pretty much done. Be careful.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:56] So is that in your mind for yourself?

Paul Martinez [01:44:59] Oh, absolutely. You know, like, if I ask the wrong question, like, wait, whoa, whoa. Paul, weren't, you know, weren't you quorum president, Sunday school president, or mission leader? Why are you even asking that? Well, what's going on? You know, I was terrified. I was not convinced yet that it was all false. You know, it was just the thought that, oh, my God, they can be wrong. And not only wrong, but dead wrong. Okay. If they were even kind of maybe right, I'd forgive them. All right? You know, with intolerance for human, you know, ability to recept kind of divine messages. But homeboy was wrong. This bishop was so wrong about things. And that. That was too much. It was too much for me. And finally. All right, you know, it's time, you know, let's start learning a little more about this. And I went to outside sources. John, can I.

John Dehlin [01:45:56] Can I jump in and ask you one quick question before you talk about the outside sources? You would have been in California during Prop 8.

Paul Martinez [01:46:03] I was.

John Dehlin [01:46:04] When the Mormon Church basically did a. Or maybe on your mission.

Paul Martinez [01:46:08] Was it 2008? Yeah, I heard about it, and I think I felt some of its effects. Yeah, I was on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] You weren't asked to canvass for the church during Prop 8?

Paul Martinez [01:46:16] No.

John Dehlin [01:46:17] Because I wonder how you might have felt about the church basically declaring war on same sex married gay people. But it sounds like you probably dodged a bullet in terms of your membership by being on a mission during Prop 8. Because I'm imagining you wouldn't have loved canvassing for the church against gay people in California.

Paul Martinez [01:46:41] You know, John, I actually don't know how to answer that. And here's why is I probably would have subscribed to the. To the gospel doctrine at that point, you know, so maybe I would love to say I would have turned it down, but I was a believer, John. Yeah, I accepted it, you know.

John Dehlin [01:47:00] Okay.

Paul Martinez [01:47:00] I might have.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] Okay, got it. Okay. Because that would have been before the wheels started coming off the wagon for you. Okay. Okay. Just had to check in about that. Knowing how your story ends, no spoilers. So anyway. Okay, so you start in 2012ish. You start digging into more outside sources, which of course, in all high demand religions, they tell you never to consult outside sources or outside information.

Paul Martinez [01:47:28] And I remember, dude, I'm sitting in front of that computer, browser's up, you know, and I start typing and my heart was pounding, you know, like, oh, shit. You know, Paul, once you do this, you know, you know, what if. You know, what if I was so scared and I remember typing in, I forget what it was. I forget what it was. Might have just been Google, you know, typed in, like, who was Joseph Smith? Something like that. And I typed it and man, like, my heart was pounding. I felt terrible. I felt so bad, like I'd killed someone, you know, I felt so guilty, so ashamed. But there was that part of me too, where it's like, I need to learn. I have to know, you know, like, what's going on, like, what's going on here, you know, you know, the church, it was a relationship, John, you know, and here I am finding out, like, you weren't honest with me. Maybe, you know, that's a big deal.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:33] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:48:33] Especially when I was pretty much goddamn honest with you.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:36] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:48:37] You know, like, you need to tell me, like, this is fair. So I was terrified to do it, but at the same time I'm like, nah, this is fair. Like, I'm entitled to this, you know, I don't care how much you've done for me, if you've done this, like, no, it doesn't matter. I'm doing it. And I did. I looked it up. And you learn. What did I learn?

John Dehlin [01:49:08] What did the missionaries not tell you?

Margi Dehlin [01:49:10] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:49:12] Oh, my God, so much, John, so much about Joseph Smith and who he was and what he had done, you know, his failed bank. Like, wait a minute. This is inspired bank. Like, it shouldn't fail. All these promises that had been made by previous prophets, like super black and white. Okay, wait a minute. Like, that's wrong. Super wrong. Like, demonstrably wrong. And they said it on the record. Right. I started to read more and more. Some of the stuff Joseph Smith did, man. Like marrying 20 people before his real wife found out. Right. That her own counselors were married to Joseph Smith. And then Emma shows up, like, hey, I heard about this bulimi thing. Can you help me out? You know, what do you know about it? They lied.

John Dehlin [01:50:04] They were married to her husband.

Paul Martinez [01:50:06] They were married to Joseph Smith and dude, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:50:09] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:50:09] It crushed me. My heart broke for Emma at that point.

John Dehlin [01:50:12] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:50:13] Like, there's just no way. Other fact. Just factual stuff about, like, the three witnesses who they were to the Book of Mormon. Yeah. Three witnesses for the Book of Mormon. Their credibility. Right. You know, Martin Harris, and he testified about a lot of things, apparently, you know, not just about the Book of Mormon, but about other sets of scripture. And it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Like, why do we believe him here but then not here?

John Dehlin [01:50:37] He was super gullible to lots of different religious leaders. Not just. Just.

Paul Martinez [01:50:42] Absolutely. Yeah. And a lot of doctrinal stuff, too, like priesthood restoration. Apparently, two homeboys didn't show up on that riverside. That bank never happened.

John Dehlin [01:50:56] Peter, James and John.

Paul Martinez [01:50:57] James and John. There you go.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] The Melchizedek priesthood probably was never really given to Joseph Smith.

Paul Martinez [01:51:03] Yeah. Like, that thing was, he made it

John Dehlin [01:51:06] up later and inserted it back when his credibility was being challenged.

Paul Martinez [01:51:11] That's right. In that Book of Commandments and Doctrine and Covenants, homeboy changed a lot. And they weren't just clarifications. I was told they were clarifications, and I can live with that. But he made material changes to the doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:51:25] Reversed meaning, Absolutely removed stuff, completely added stuff that totally changed the meaning.

Paul Martinez [01:51:31] Yeah. And it was way after the fact. Like, no, like, this is not a clarification. Someone went out of their way to do this. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] We're talking about changes between the original Book of Commandments and then the doctrine, later versions of the Doctrine and Covenants. There's a whole series entitled LDS Discussions where we dig into a lot of this church history and these church things. If you want to learn more, you can find it on Spotify, on Apple podcasts, and there's a YouTube playlist called LDS discussions. So. Okay, keep going.

Paul Martinez [01:52:04] Yeah, yeah. You know at first it's shock, you know, I've experienced trauma in my life, you know, and at first it's shock. You're just like, you're paralyzed. But I couldn't stop reading it either, you know, like, what else? What else have you not told me?

Margi Dehlin [01:52:17] So did this become a special interest?

Paul Martinez [01:52:19] Oh, my God, it did. Yeah, absolutely. I was doing the thing six. Six hours a day reading. You know, I can compete with Dan Vogel at this point. You know, we call it going down the rabbit hole. Down the rabbit hole, baby. Yeah. I couldn't stop reading over what.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:37] What time frame are we talking?

Paul Martinez [01:52:39] Yeah, I started to probably 2013, 14. Ish. I am in that rabbit hole. I'm reading.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:47] And is it months, years? Like, how long did this go on for you?

Paul Martinez [01:52:52] It went till about 2017.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:56] Wow.

Paul Martinez [01:52:57] Maybe early 2018.

John Dehlin [01:52:58] Wow.

Paul Martinez [01:52:59] Yeah. I'm telling you, I.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] So five, six years?

Paul Martinez [01:53:02] Yeah. It was a special interest of mine. Like, I. Dude, I learned so much about the church. So much. And my heart would break as I would learn more and more about not only what a fiction it was, but that the church knew and that the church had known. When I found that out, that cut me to the core. Like, you've been lying. Like, you've known. You've known about this, you know, and like, I trusted them, you know, I gave up so much, you know, I almost died on my mission, you know, I gave up so much. I taught so much.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] You gave two years of your life.

Paul Martinez [01:53:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [01:53:42] I almost died on that mission. Gave up two years. And I felt betrayed. You know, Betrayal. You really want to kill someone, you betray them, right? And not only that, you do it willingly, and you do it over and over and over again. And that's the part that killed me, that they kept doing it. You know, I learned that people tried. People tried to make changes. Like, hey, you got this wrong. Can you fix it? Nah, we ain't fixing it, you know, and that's how it works. And I learned, like, oh, my God, this is systemic. This is systemic. This is not a one time I could forgive a one time, a two time, a ten time. Right? Big institution like, no, this is how it works. This is par for the course. And I'm still in shock. I bounce between shock and grief. And I never cried so much in my life. You know, my heart is breaking time and time again. I love the church, John, you know, And I would have done anything for it. And when I found out that they lied to me and that they lied over and over and over again. It was almost too much, you know, but here's the thing. Like, I needed to learn the truth. I need, I need to know. Okay, so I did it for years.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:01] During that time, did you change your, I don't know, your level of activity or are you still going and just sort of holding? As someone who doesn't like to hold, you know, the gray. Is that what you were trying to do during that time or did you change your behavior at church?

Paul Martinez [01:55:19] Yeah, no, thanks for asking.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] And also, was your wife sad about questions?

Paul Martinez [01:55:23] Absolutely. So. I turned down a calling, you know, I did start to plant, you know, set my feet or put my feet on the ground here. I'm like, you know what? I declined a calling. And I started to participate less, participate less. And people found out, oh, Paul, he's found some things out. And I started to feel more self conscious at church because I knew that they knew I was a pariah. Now I'm going to hit on the blacklist. So I did start to withdraw. I didn't stop attending. And that was for my wife. It means a lot to her that I continue to attend and be active. John, that was really hard for me too. I felt like I was abandoning my wife, you know, because she, you know, I made a promise to her too, you know, like, we're doing this together, you know, I trust you, you trust me, we're doing it together. And I hated, I hated that I, you know, I did that to her. I was pissed at the church that they put me in that position too. Like, you guys knew, you know, later I found out, you know, I'm watching Mormon stories, you know, like I was casualty 10,000, you know, they know, they know and they keep doing it, you know, I was pissed at the church for that. And I was really disappointed that I couldn't do what my wife wanted, you know, I let her down. I felt so bad because the agreement

John Dehlin [01:56:57] when he got Temple married was that you'd be in it for eternity with her, right?

Paul Martinez [01:57:00] Yeah, you know, we're doing it together, you know, we're sealed in the temple. We're going to do this for the eternities. We're building worlds together, you know, after the resurrection, babe, you know, in it to win it. And here's the thing, like, I convinced her of it, you know, I killed it, dude, as a member, you know, one of the. I had incredible leadership with so few years under my belt, incredible trust, you know, super loyal and extremely knowledgeable. Okay, So I was a superstar, you know, and here I am, like, oh, My gosh. Like, my family was right. They were right.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Your non Mormon family was right.

Paul Martinez [01:57:43] They were right.

John Dehlin [01:57:44] Your church wasn't what you came to believe.

Paul Martinez [01:57:46] That's right, man. So here I am, Democrat going to Republican. Now I'm switching back to Democrat. And that identity shift, it's hard. It was so hard to do. There's the conditioning, but there's the identity. Like, man, letting down my wife, I'm letting down all these people who, you know, helped me on my mission. I don't know who paid for my mission, John. You know, people were so generous. Here I am like, I'm letting them down. Letting them down. That killed me. I don't like to let people down. You know, it is a neurodivergent thing. You know, there's people pleasing. Sometimes it's pathological. So it hurt even more, you know, I hate this. I was pissed, man. I was so upset. And 2018, I resigned.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] Oh, wait, so you would have been going through this when the 2015 policy came out for LGBT people that basically made same sex marriage an act of apostasy. Said that children of LGBT people couldn't get married. Oh, sorry. Couldn't get baptized or confirmed or even get the priesthood. And that if they got baptized, they had to do it when they were 18 and they had to denounce their parents. Same sex relationships. Did any of that hit you hard while you were questioning?

Paul Martinez [01:59:19] It did, John. It did. And when I heard that, I was shocked because at that point I thought I had heard all the lows, you know, and then pow, you know, what a stab, you know, to the gay community and to their children. Like, you're getting the children involved in this case, making them pick, you know, that's. That's diabolical. Yeah. Like, there's just no way. I was disgusted by that. So, yeah, that was. I was caught off guard. Like, man, I thought you guys were bad, but, like, you guys can still fuck it up pretty bad.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:01] Yeah, you're like, this is like, currently. You are currently bad.

Paul Martinez [02:00:05] Yeah, Like, I thought it was kind of over. Like, you're damage control, lying to the people. It's like, no, you're still fucking shit up bad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:14] And I guess you would have gone through your questioning phase when the church was issuing its gospel topics essays. CES letter would have come out and Mormon stories would have kind of been really picking up steam. So there's a lot of information that you had accessible.

Paul Martinez [02:00:30] It finally became accessible. Finally. But once I learned why, it's like, ah, you know, there are People are finding about how dishonest you are.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:00:39] You know, and it just spoke to its damage control efforts. It's trying to protect its image, its brand. It's not about the truth.

John Dehlin [02:00:48] Yeah, but what's hard is the church had genuinely sort of rescued you from a sad childhood and adolescence and it gave you meaning, it gave you purpose. It filled all these holes of identity and took away your self loathing. So it sounds almost like an abusive parent where you love your parent, they protected you and helped you, but they were also abusive. So like an abusive parent is the only metaphor I could think of for what you probably were experiencing once you discovered the church had misled you.

Paul Martinez [02:01:22] Yeah, absolutely, John. Yeah, abuse. I was so conflicted and it made me, you know, start to think about things like that, you know, it was so cruel. How could something that had been so kind and so giving be so cruel? And again, like, that broke my brain, black and white, thinking like, this doesn't happen. How do we do this? And

John Dehlin [02:01:48] also, you would have believed that the Holy Ghost had told you to join the church, Right? Like God had told you to join the church, right?

Paul Martinez [02:01:55] No, absolutely. It was painful to think, John, to look back and think like, maybe it wasn't the Holy Ghost. You know, what else could I be so wrong about? Because I knew it. I knew it was true. It shook my world. There were nights I would just pace back and forth and my body would just burn trying to reconcile this. It really affected me.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:20] Yeah, yeah,

John Dehlin [02:02:24] yeah.

Resignation, Divorce, and an Abusive Relationship

Margi Dehlin [02:02:25] So you said you resigned in 2018. Is that what you said?

Paul Martinez [02:02:30] So 2018. Quitmormon.org you're like, you know what? It was too much. I forget what had happened, but I could no longer in good conscience be a member. You know, I did stop attending eventually. I couldn't do it. It was so hard to hear what I knew wasn't true and that it might lead other people to believe. And then, you know, 10 years later, after marriage and kids and all the callings and the mission, find out it wasn't true. Couldn't do it. So I stopped attending. Eventually I resigned. It's like, I can't do this. I'm out. I'm done.

John Dehlin [02:03:05] Yeah, yeah, tell me really quickly. We're going to talk about someone who, you know, was abusive in your life. But just so I can get the timeline right. When did your. You left the church in 2018. When did your marriage end again?

Paul Martinez [02:03:25] Marriage ended 2021.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] Okay. Okay.

Paul Martinez [02:03:28] Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:29] So introducing, let's just say, a new character into this story without Naming names. There was somebody who entered into your life that kind of played an abusive role. And I think it's important for you to talk about that in a way where we're not gonna try and call anyone out or identify them. But there was a person that entered your life who played an abusive role. And you end up making in your outline a parallel between experiencing abuse and then also starting to see the church as similar to an abusive partner. Yeah. So how do you want to address.

Paul Martinez [02:04:07] Absolutely, absolutely. Part of the story? You know, I was so conflicted. I was feeling, like, incredible emotions, and I needed answers to them, like, what's going on inside of me? You know, how do emotions work? Like, what the hell is going on that I'm so upset about this? And I started to learn about. About abuse, abusive behavior, what it looks like, and it broke my brain. There is so much paradox and things that don't make sense with things. Abuse. When you're on the spectrum, it's difficult to detect abuse. You're just so trusting. You're so naive. You believe the words. You could see a video, you're like, oh, that's AI. Wow, that's really good AI.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:02] So that comes into play particularly, are you saying when you're trying to weigh your behavior that you're witnessing or how you're being treated with, let's say, what someone's saying to you. Is that what you mean?

Paul Martinez [02:05:16] Yeah, I'm trying to figure out this experience. And two, I'm starting to think maybe I'm neurodivergent. Finally, at this point in my life later, mid 2015s late, I might be neurodivergent. You know, enter my mind, and I started learning about it. And then I realized, like, hey, Paul, unscrupulous behavior can be hard to detect for you. Okay, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Okay, hey, you know, people don't always say what they mean and mean what they say. It's like, I didn't know that. Okay, hey, someone who says they love you can hurt you and hurt you bad, and then you do it over and again and not even love you. Like, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Okay? It sounds so stupid, right? But I literally didn't know it, okay? So when I experienced abusive behavior, okay, I think it's me, you know, I misunderstood something. They got upset for a reason. I didn't even know. I didn't know it was abuse at first. I knew it hurt, you know, but I couldn't Connect the dots. Still learning about feelings, they're so hard sometimes it's hard to connect that event A led to feeling, you know, B or whatever. So I'm learning about neurodivergence. I'm learning about feelings. I'm learning about conditioning. I'm learning about black and white thinking, you know, and there's nuance. And people you're in a relationship who say they love you, they can love you, actually, but they can also hurt you. You know, it can work that way. Yep. That broke my brain. Like, I literally didn't know that. Okay? So I'm doing these exercises. Mindfulness changed my life. Noah Rashetta checked out his podcast, and I'm learning to just sit and pay attention to emotions. Right? Give it a name. When was the last time you felt this way? You know, start basic. Is it good? Is it bad? You know, pay attention to your body. Are you crying? Are you tense? Okay. It's probably this, you know, did someone just pass? That's grief, you know, and you learn, you know, what emotions are in their role, how they can also be twisted, you know, and you can be corrupted with them. You know, with the church, John, I learned it corrupts how you feel about things. Okay. I think it was a recent podcast of yours. You said, I think Utah has some of the most oppressed people in the world. Right? But yet they say they're the happiest. Right? I've seen people too fast in testimony, crying, I'm so happy. And now I've learned about, you know, body language and emotions. I'm like, nah, homegirl ain't happy. You know, she's going through a tough time, okay? That's what abusive people do, John, okay? They don't care about your feelings. What they care about is them. Your feelings get in the way, and they're going to do what it takes to corrupt it. They're going to convince you you're happy. You're doing the things when you're miserable. Okay? I was in one relationship towards the end of it. I was a shell of a human being. I was a shell. And I lost touch, you know, with my feelings. And I had to tap into them again, right? And then I realized, like, Paul, like, you're miserable right now. You're miserable, you're unhappy. Here's how we can tell, okay? It started about this point. They say these things. Does a person who loves you do these things? You know, I needed those kinds of questions, right?

Parallels Between Childhood Trauma and Adult Abuse

Margi Dehlin [02:09:06] Can I ask you a question about the abuse itself as well, that you're Experiencing now, later in life. Were there things that were similar to your childhood experience of abuse? I think sometimes unconsciously, of course, you know, what is laid the foundation that's laid in childhood. Even if cognitively we want to say, you know, that wasn't, okay, I'm not going to do that. I'm not never going to be in a position like that again or that unconsciously, it's what's familiar. And so very often we end up in situations later on where it may not be exactly the same, but maybe dynamics or there are aspects that oftentimes were laid earlier. They're familiar to us. Were there things in common? And if so, do you want to name just a couple of the things in common?

Paul Martinez [02:10:09] Yeah, I hope I understood the question, but fear.

John Dehlin [02:10:14] Did any abuse or control in your childhood reappear as a pattern in the. Oh, abuse relationship.

Paul Martinez [02:10:23] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:10:23] Experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:24] What were some of those things? I think.

Paul Martinez [02:10:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one is governing by fear. Okay, you govern by fear, but you don't. You've forgotten what fear even feels like. You think you're doing it because you love them. Okay, I. I had one exercise where I just. I asked myself, you know, imagine saying no to this person. Mental exercise. Just sit with yourself. Imagine they've asked you to do something, and in your mind's eye, say no to them. And pay attention to how you feel. I did that with this person, and I realized it was terror. Like, it was terror. I had forgotten, you know, what it was like. And when I realized how scared I was of this person that scared me. It was hard to hide it.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:17] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:11:18] You know, my behavior changed a little bit about them, and that's. You have to be careful. Okay. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] You were scared of your dad, right?

Paul Martinez [02:11:26] Oh, absolutely. It's fear, you know, so living in

Margi Dehlin [02:11:29] fear when you're in proximity and living with this or being close with this person in any way.

Paul Martinez [02:11:36] You fawn, you know, that was how I dealt with it. I fond. Give you whatever you want, you know, you want me to do this? You got it. You know, I thought I was being a good partner. Right. But I was acting out of fear. Okay. Church. I'm sorry. It's the same thing. It is. Try saying no to your bishop. Pay attention to how you feel. Okay. It's terror. It's terror.

John Dehlin [02:12:04] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:12:08] I learned through the church, you know, kind of kicked off the whole abusive relationship thing. You know, they're real. They're out there, and there are unscrupulous people and institutions who. They'll take advantage of you. They Will, unabashedly. They won't care. Like, they literally don't care. You know, victims. We would love it if they cared and if they apologized, that would mean so much to us. And it hurts to think like, nah, they don't even care. You know, going back to your analogy of being a narcissist, the church as an institution, not the members, you know, members, Salt of the earth. I still believe that. But as an institution. Dark triad, you know, psychopath, narcissistic, Machiavellian. Okay. They're brilliant with how they work. Recent podcast with the. Those small town churches, you know, bullying them with lawyers, you know, and if you hear them in front of city council, they gaslight the shit out of those. Out of the council members. Yeah, we want to be good neighbors. Well, why don't you lower it by hundred foot? Oh, because we wanted to be good neighbors.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] Oh, the steeple.

Paul Martinez [02:13:15] Yeah. Oh, sorry, the steeple wars. Yeah, Yeah, I heard the Kirkland one and it was disgusting. I was disgusted by how the church rep talked to them. They talked to them like they were so stupid, you know, and they were confused by the gaslighting. Like, hey, you're over here saying you, you know, you're saying you want to be a good neighbor, but then you're squishing us with a lawsuit. Yeah, yeah, we just want to be good neighbors. And that's disgusting to me because you're running over them at that point. You're saying they're so stupid, you know, but they say and how they feel doesn't even matter. Okay. Super manipulative, psychopathic. Like, they don't care. They don't care how many people you know are torn apart by the things they do. They'll just find another member. There's someone in someone else in line. Paul, quiz. Who cares? Yeah. You know we got someone else.

John Dehlin [02:14:06] Yeah. Hearing you describe this, it makes me realize something pretty obvious that I'd never put together before. The members made you feel loved.

Paul Martinez [02:14:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] When you joined, but the church didn't really care about you at the end of the day. So there's a difference between feeling the love from the members, but then bumping up against the fact that the church could care less. You're just a number.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:29] It's almost the institution. Like you're bumping up against the institutional side, the corporate side.

Paul Martinez [02:14:34] Absolutely. And that's why, you know, if you leave the church, you can't bash the members. Like, I don't want to hear it. I see a lot of Reddit posts. Oh, yeah, Sheep this. That, like, no, that's not cool. Okay? They're real people. They're there. You know, a lot of them, they really care. They believe, okay? And a lot of them are manipulated into it, okay? They get caught in something, and then they want to get out, but they can't. You know, church puts a gun to their head. There's so many stories where someone tries to leave, hey, you leave, we're going to tell the congregation, you know, about your past sins, you know, or they're,

Margi Dehlin [02:15:06] like, facing such grave consequences, like, they'll lose their marriage, they'll lose their family support. They'll lose.

Paul Martinez [02:15:14] Right, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:16] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:15:16] So they give it to you to take it from you, to use it.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:20] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:15:20] Big difference between the institution and the members. Members, again, people. Salt of the earth, you know, I was one of them. Like, I believed I was there to do, like, great things, you know? So I feel bad. I feel bad for so many members. You know, they get caught up in stuff they can't get out, then they get thrown under the bus.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:41] So do you view members, like, just to draw the parallel now to this? So do you draw the. Do you think of the members as victims, like you would if they were in a narcissistic relationship with someone?

Paul Martinez [02:15:54] Absolutely. They got caught up in it.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:56] I see.

Paul Martinez [02:15:57] Now, hopefully, I think most of them won't be in a situation where they have to, you know, do what the mob, spiritual mob wants, but. But they'll do it. You know, if the church needs you and you're the person, you're going to get a call. Hey, we need you to talk to the city councilman. You know, hey, we need you to pass zoning over here, right? If you don't do it, so many stories, they get in trouble. Like, that's not cool. They are absolutely the victims. A lot of people still get a lot from the church, Right. I'm not going to say it's all terrible. You know, it checked a lot of boxes for me when it did. And I can't be going around saying, like, it's terrible. Burn it down. No way. There's just no way. You know, it's a relationship. There are times when that relationship, it works. And not only does it work, you're a better person for it. And those you fight for them. You know, every relationship has its. Has its things, you know, no such thing. And you gotta piss each other off. You work through it. But there comes a point where it's abusive, John. And that's where I learned, like, all right, there's a Thing. There's such a thing as an abusive relationship, and you have to be on alert for them, especially if you're neurodivergent. We're 10 times more likely to be hurt and caught up in things. A lot of us suffer an unusual amount of ptsd. We pay the price because we're so vulnerable, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:17:23] Yeah. Extra vulnerability. And just to play out some of the characteristics, just because they're going through my head right now of kind of narcissism.

John Dehlin [02:17:33] Can I read through them? Because he's got to be in the outline.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:35] Yeah. Cause I'm realizing a lot of them actually do fit.

John Dehlin [02:17:38] Yeah. Not to interrupt you, Margi, but I was just about to take him through. So in your outline, you've got a really, really good list. You wrote, breaking away from Mormon church is a lot like breaking away from an abusive partner. And then you've got a big list. So I'll read each one and you can make a comment. Does that make sense?

Paul Martinez [02:17:58] Yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [02:17:59] So the first thing you wrote is abusive partners are all about control, image, and protecting their fragile ego.

Paul Martinez [02:18:07] Absolutely, John. The church, ultimately, when all is said and done is control. Okay. You do what we say, and if you even start to question, you're out. We're gonna make you pay the price.

John Dehlin [02:18:19] And I often say the two most sacred things in Mormonism are authority and image. Public image. They want to control you because they want to control their public image and be viewed as good.

Paul Martinez [02:18:31] So, like, PR is powerful. A lot of abusive people, phenomenal. Pr, and the church knows it. Okay. That's why they spend so much money on it. It's so powerful. It lets you get away with so much.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] But with the church and abusive people, it's not about being good. It's about looking good.

Paul Martinez [02:18:50] It's about looking good. And that's why if you want to piss off a narcissist, you want to piss off the church. Make them look bad.

John Dehlin [02:18:57] Make them look bad, even if they should look bad because they've done wrong.

Paul Martinez [02:19:01] Yeah, it's powerful. It's power. You know, they want options. They want to get away with things. So image, they protect it behind closed doors. They're monsters.

John Dehlin [02:19:11] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The second thing you have there is nothing is their fault.

Paul Martinez [02:19:16] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:18] It's like Oak said, we don't apologize.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:21] So lack of accountability, lack of accountability.

John Dehlin [02:19:23] Everything is God said, Even polygamy. God commanded Joseph to practice polygamy. It wasn't Joseph, it was God.

Paul Martinez [02:19:32] If it's your fault, you're Accountable.

John Dehlin [02:19:33] Right.

Paul Martinez [02:19:33] You gotta make a change. But if it's never your fault, well,

John Dehlin [02:19:36] you never have to change because it's always God. You know what I mean?

Paul Martinez [02:19:39] What's the big deal? We didn't do it.

John Dehlin [02:19:41] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:19:41] Why are you getting mad at us?

John Dehlin [02:19:42] Yeah. God's ways are complicated. They're more sophisticated. We don't always understand God's ways.

Paul Martinez [02:19:48] So pass the buck.

John Dehlin [02:19:49] Yeah. Yeah. But never take responsibility.

Paul Martinez [02:19:52] Yeah.

Leaving the Church, Narcissism, and Emotional Parallels

John Dehlin [02:19:52] All right. The third thing you have is to leave them is an attack on their core quote. How dare you leave me? I once Learned from Thomas McConkey, he taught me the quote that. That basically you can tell a cult because there's no credible way to leave a cult. Right. You can't. A cult is any organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact because there's no. For a cult or an abusive person, there's no credible reason to leave them. Is that right?

Paul Martinez [02:20:29] Yeah, that's right. And if you're a good person, why would you be leaving them? Yeah, It's. You know, it speaks to. That. Maybe they weren't such a great person after all, because why are you leaving them? You can't.

John Dehlin [02:20:41] Yeah. Next one you have is they control your friends, your family.

Paul Martinez [02:20:46] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [02:20:47] Your identity. And then you have the quote, where will you go? That sounds very. We know that's a quote from a general authority. Yeah, but that sounds straight out of like an abusive Hollywood movie. If you leave me, where will you go? Right?

Paul Martinez [02:21:01] Yeah, absolutely. The idea is there literally is nowhere to go. You stay here. You're trying to remove any options that they have. Speaking to the friends.

John Dehlin [02:21:10] Nothing without me, Right?

Paul Martinez [02:21:11] Absolutely. Classic.

John Dehlin [02:21:13] I made you. I made you.

Paul Martinez [02:21:14] It's your worthless right. You're worthless if you have no worth. You can't negotiate. You have no leverage. Right. And they're trying to remove all leverage. Friends. Yeah. If you have friends, they might see the abuse. Right. If you're. If you're friends with non church members, they might point out that, like, hey, doesn't that seem a little controlling to you? I was in one relationship, John, where I was strongly discouraged from having friends. Okay? And I was isolated and I had nowhere to go. You know, I had nowhere to go. Like, where will I go, John? I have friends. Not only did I not have them, they were turned against me. Okay. They controlled the narrative. Okay. You know, again, autism, not great with social stuff. And they're like, oh, yeah, it's Paul. You know, it has to be Paul. You know, he's neurodivergent. He has adhd. He probably deregulates. You know, they use that stuff against you. You know, it's all about making you powerless, taking your voice. And it's a terrible feeling, and you don't want to feel that again, so you stay with them.

John Dehlin [02:22:15] And it's not just friends. It can be your spouse and your kids that are held captive, Correct?

Paul Martinez [02:22:20] Absolutely. Whatever is valuable to you, John, they know what it is. Could be your kids. Right. Could be your job. Hey, I'm gonna call them up, let them know about those 10 grand you threw our way. I'll let them know now. Right. So they're there to show you who's in charge.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:37] And inadvertently, too, what that does, by having you not have friends, by having you, is it reinforces them as center, as, like the focus point. Right.

Paul Martinez [02:22:48] Yeah. Where will you go?

Margi Dehlin [02:22:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:22:50] Yeah. Next one you have is they control your identity.

Paul Martinez [02:22:55] That's right. You are nothing without them. Yeah, right. You need them. Because without them, like, what are you?

John Dehlin [02:23:03] Who are you? What are you?

Paul Martinez [02:23:04] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:06] If you're not a devout Mormon, what are you? Yeah, just some neurodiverse, you know.

Paul Martinez [02:23:14] Yeah. Some kid with autism who has no friends. Someone told me, like, that I was in a relationship one time. They said that that killed me. And by that point, you know, I was like, okay, you know, I'm recognizing a pattern here.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:29] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:23:30] Absolutely cruel. Like, just cruel stuff.

John Dehlin [02:23:35] Yeah. And then you're dealing with loneliness and. Sorry, loneliness to boot. You're. You've lost your identity, you've lost your moral compass, you've lost your conviction, your sense of meaning and purpose, and you risk losing your spouse, your kids, all your friends in your community. So you're combating loneliness on top of all the other things you've lost.

Paul Martinez [02:23:57] Yeah. And to throw in an ADHD component to that. It's a lot harder to work, to feel motivated, to get things done by yourself. Body doubling is a game changer. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:11] Yep.

Paul Martinez [02:24:11] So you know that thought, like, I'm going to be, you know, on my own. I'm not going to have any friends. I don't know where I'm going to live. Yeah, right. It was too much.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:23] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:24:24] It's too much. It. It hurts less to stay in than to leave.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:29] Got it.

Paul Martinez [02:24:29] Until it hurts too much to stay in.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:32] Right.

Paul Martinez [02:24:32] Then you leave.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:33] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:24:35] So a few other things you have. You have fear of isolation after relationship is over. Shame and guilt for failed relationship. Being wrong about the church after having given so much, I guess you would wonder if I could have been so wrong about the church. How do I trust my intuition? How do I trust my decision making? How do I trust what I thought was the Holy Ghost if all those things led me wrong? Is that right?

Paul Martinez [02:25:00] Shakes your world, man. Again, I had structure. I had it. I needed it. And now not only do I not have structure, you have an autistic person without structure. Okay?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:12] And then you have to rebuild from scratch. Losing everything.

Paul Martinez [02:25:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] Like, midlife.

Paul Martinez [02:25:19] It was hard. It was one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life, John. Leaving abusive relationships, leaving the church. Okay. Because there's still safety in them. Yeah, they're abusive, but at least they're predictable, you know? You know where you're gonna go, you know what you're going to hear. You know what's next. You know, you got someone there, body double. Like, it helps you get things done, right. Until it hurts too much to stay in.

John Dehlin [02:25:47] Well, they say that loneliness is more toxic than smoking and, you know, alcoholism. So as toxic as a bad relationship or a bad church membership might be, it's very possible that loneliness could actually be worse. Right. So you can't. You can't stay, but, you know, then you're lonely and it could be worse. Right.

Paul Martinez [02:26:11] It's a function of survival.

John Dehlin [02:26:13] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:26:13] Yeah. And what's terrible is if, you know, you're an abusive relationship and you don't get out, that kind of feeds into the shame, you know, you're weak, can't leave. You know, it hurts. It hurts so much.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:26] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] And then you have to start over from scratch because those relationships or that church controlled everything. And now you're starting over with nothing. How overwhelming is that?

Margi Dehlin [02:26:39] And I'm realizing, much like the church, you know, when for many people, that faith journey, often with this relationship journey and coming to reality with that, it also makes you face this. This idea of, like, who am I? Who. Who am I then? Because you haven't actually developed differentiated, you know, a self in the meantime. So it leaves you in this place of just feeling a bit lost. Is that right?

Paul Martinez [02:27:10] Yeah. You just. You feel so empty.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:12] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:27:12] You know, and here's the thing. Like, I had it. I had it. I was unstoppable. You know, I was unstoppable. I did great things when I was in the church. You know, a lot of it. A lot of my success is a result of the church down to being, you know, a father. Okay. I take being a father super seriously. The church helped with that. It really did. You know, it absolutely had its value.

John Dehlin [02:27:36] And you Found your wife through it. And you had your kids.

Paul Martinez [02:27:39] Beautiful kids, man. Beautiful kids.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:44] Can I add one that I think is important, too, to the list that I think is in common, too? It's the idea that, well, I'll speak to narcissism. And, you know, I think people, a narcissistic person or someone with narcissistic traits would have this. And I think the church has this. There's one reality, and it's theirs. Right. Their reality is the only true reality. Your feelings, they're not real. Only my feelings that I see. This is the real way.

John Dehlin [02:28:18] Lack of perspective taking, lack of empathy.

Paul Martinez [02:28:22] Yeah. Well, if they had empathy, then they might actually think about how the other person is feeling. Yeah. Your feelings don't matter in an abusive relationship. Your feelings don't matter in the church. The church never goes out of its way to say, hey, how will this affect the children? How will it affect the gay community? They never do that. It's never feelings.

John Dehlin [02:28:38] No. Yeah. Well, the last bull you have is. Is shaking off Mormon teaching. So this conditioning, the wiring runs deep, Right. It's hard to shake off.

Paul Martinez [02:28:50] Yeah. John, I remember the first time I took off those Mormon choneys, man, the garments, and I put on, you know,

John Dehlin [02:28:58] whatever you saying there.

Paul Martinez [02:28:59] Chonies.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] Chonies?

Paul Martinez [02:29:00] Yeah. Like, you know, underwear in Spanish.

John Dehlin [02:29:01] Mexican.

Paul Martinez [02:29:02] Spanish, man. I was trembling, and I look back now, that's ridiculous, right? But, man, yeah, and that was a big deal. Super symbolic. Deeply symbolic. I remember taking him off, you know, here come, you know, the Calvin Klein boxers. Just real slow, like, what's going to happen? You know, what's happening? What's happening? Boom. Like, all right, put him on. Let's do the pants. Let's walk out to the car and. Sounds ridiculous, but it is that kind of intensity. Like, what's going to happen? You're on eggshells. That took a long time to shake off. There's a lot of guilt from the church as well, you know, A lot of guilt I had to shake off that I didn't have to be a volunteer for everything, you know, that I could do things for myself, you know, that was a novel idea. We're taught sacrifice. Church first, church first. You first. Oh, no, no, no. How could you? Church has done so much for you, you know, you gotta contribute. And the idea that, like, hey, maybe I could do something just for myself, you know, get that thing just to see how it tastes for me, you know? It took a while to feel shameless about just doing things for myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:22] Right? Yes. Providing yourself with what you need, providing yourself with care. You deserve that.

Paul Martinez [02:30:29] You deserve. Even the idea you. You know, that, like, you deserve this. You're going through a tough time. Reading the scriptures ain't gonna help you. You know, you might have to try this other thing and doing it just for you.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:40] Yeah. So you end up at the end of this wonderful list about how the Mormon Church. Leaving the Mormon Church is like leaving an abusive relationship. You write, arguably one of the most difficult things I've done in your life. So it's almost like joining the church. It was one of the best things that ever happened to you. And then leaving the church was one of the most awful things that's ever happened to you. Like, how complicated is that?

Paul Martinez [02:31:04] Yeah, because it was so good to me, John. You know, I felt the Savior's love. I felt his love. I felt the Holy Ghost. I preached a gospel out there, you know, and then to leave it. Oh, God, it's too much. It was too much. That's why it took so long, you know, for me to leave. But I had to do it. Once I found out what they had done and that they keep doing it, I'm out.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:26] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:31:27] Couldn't do it.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:28] Yeah. What would you say? You know, I think we've discussed a lot of the barriers, like what makes it difficult to leave, both in an abusive relationship and also the Mormon Church, who can serve as, like a proxy for. I mean, what would you say has been on the other side of that, though, for you?

Paul Martinez [02:31:51] So having left and now.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:52] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:31:53] Paul 2.0, so to speak, Post Mormon. Paul. Yeah, it has been. Once I was able to shake off the conditioning, it's been open world, like, what's out there? And I started to just be curious.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] Well, I mean, it's probably worth mentioning your marriage didn't survive. Right.

Paul Martinez [02:32:14] The marriage did not last. The church certainly did not help.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] Okay. So the. So part of your reconstruction is as a single man. I mean, I think that's a.

Paul Martinez [02:32:24] That's right. Big change. Big change. Being single.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:27] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:32:28] Finally really living the neurodivergence kind of identity. Like, all right, this is who I am. This is what I do. This is how I, you know, interact with the world as I understand it.

John Dehlin [02:32:37] And getting. Was getting those diagnoses, ADHD and ASD diagnosis. Was that helpful?

Paul Martinez [02:32:44] It was, John. It was. It was great for a professional to tell me because then, like, confirmed, you know, and now as I revisit so many past experiences, everything makes so much more sense.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:57] Yeah. You have some self knowledge. Self Understanding.

Paul Martinez [02:33:00] In my case, it proved valuable. You know, some people, they just know they don't need the diagnosis. But I wanted it. For me, it was really important. I see a professional, we talk about it together, and then I get it.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:13] Yeah. And that seems like it would be helpful with identity forming, honestly, on the other side, that you're actually connecting with your own brain in a very informed way.

Paul Martinez [02:33:26] Yeah. It's great to know why you do the things you do. It speaks to mindfulness. Pause. Take a break. What's going on here? And it helps you make better decisions. It helps you avoid risky situations. You know, now I know neurodivergent. I'm a little naive, right? And there are probably certain situations and people I should avoid or I should have a, you know, a loved one with me. You know, there are things I have to admit. There are certain weaknesses. They're hard to admit, but better I know them than not, you know, put myself in a dangerous situation. Yeah. It's helped me structure the way I work now that I know, like, hey, I need structure with novelty. It's changed the way I work.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:09] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:34:10] You know, ADHD, too. Time blindness, things like that. I'm far more visual now. I use a Kanban, you know, for the office. In other words, you just have all your tasks visually on a board, and once you see it, it's real, you know, Same with clocks. I have clocks all over the place. Because time. You have adhd, time, man, is so hard, it slips through your fingers. And if you don't have a beep or a buzz or something to, you know, remind you of how much time has passed, like, you're gonna be late for stuff. You will. You'll be late. You're gonna miss your kiddos thing. It's so important, you know, that if you have it, you should know about it. Otherwise, it's hurting you and it's probably hurting others around you.

Understanding Your Neurodivergent Brain and Healing

Margi Dehlin [02:34:54] So what I'm hearing kind of is that your experience of learning how your brain works has allowed you to create a more supportive environment for you to thrive, for you to kind of live the life that you want. Is that right?

Paul Martinez [02:35:09] Yeah. And, you know, it speaks to me, like, being kind to myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:12] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:35:12] You know, like, hey, Paul, you need these things, you know, it's okay. I was, you know, I was embarrassed at first. You know, hey, Paul, you can't, you know, you're terrible at time. You know, you need these things, and it speaks to, you know, self compassion. Like, hey, you know, it's okay. It's not a Big deal. Everyone has their things. You need some extra clocks. This needs to be visual for you. And it's led to far more productivity, more meaningful relationships, you know, and sometimes just telling the other person, like, hey, you know, kind of on the spectrum here, and I might need some clarification. I might have some dumb questions, you know, like, hey, I heard you say this, but then did you really mean this? Like, I can't tell, you know, I'm surrendering a little bit. It's very disarming. And much better relationships.

John Dehlin [02:36:02] More direct communication, more direct vulnerability.

Paul Martinez [02:36:05] Yeah. And sometimes I've learned, too, that, you know, feelings are important. You know, they're really important. They're a little hard for me still to kind of manage. Understand. Sometimes I feel like they get in the way. Like, hey, let's just do the thing already. But I've learned that, hey, you know, feelings are really important, and we need to cater to the feelings of others. Even if you think it's, you know, a lot of work, like, hey, you know, people's feelings, they matter. Okay. And we should take them into account. Okay. Should be. It should be pretty close to the top of the list. Okay. Before, not so much. It just wasn't a thing for me. It was not a natural thing for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:41] In bringing up. I feel like we touched on loneliness, this fear of being lonely. I do think there's a very intense and unique loneliness that comes from being in relationship with someone who either exhibits narcissistic traits or is identifiably a narcissist. Do you want to speak to your experience leaving the church, leaving this relationship with loneliness and maybe what has changed there? What surprised you or.

Paul Martinez [02:37:16] Yeah. So what I'm here is combating kind of the loneliness as you leave, Is that right? I learned to accept it's okay to feel lonely. It's okay to be single. Acceptance, you know, like, it's okay. It's not that big of a deal. It happens, and sometimes it needs to happen. You know, you're better off being lonely sometimes than with that person.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:37] Yes. It depends 100%.

Paul Martinez [02:37:39] Sometimes it's better to be lonely. Yeah. And I've learned. I've learned to fight a lot of that. Like, it's okay. It's okay to feel lonely. Sometimes things don't work out.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:48] Yes.

Paul Martinez [02:37:49] They just don't. It's not personal. And you'll just have to go out and meet new people. And I've learned that's something I love to do. You know, I was stuck. Stuck in the church. You Know, you really only talk to other church members, you know, and in these other relationships, like, you're not allowed to have friends and being outside of these constraints. Oh, my God. I love meeting people. Like, networking, doing meetups, just different Facebook groups. One of my favorite things to do is walk up to someone, you know, like at an event, and say, hey, you know, I noticed you're part of this event. You know, my name's Paul. You know, I'd love to learn your story. Like, what's your story? And that catches so many people off guard, and they have to think about it. I love hearing it. I love hearing it, like, what's your story? And then they get to choose. They get to choose the narrative a little bit and control it. I love that, you know, and one of my goals is just meet as many people as possible. You learn so much, you know, about yourself as you meet other people. It blows me away.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:50] Wow.

Paul Martinez [02:38:50] You know, everyone's so unique. You know, different backgrounds, history, and, you know. Yeah. Autistic. But you know what? I love meeting people.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:59] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:38:59] You know, it's so cool. People blow me away.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:03] Back to the loneliness for a minute. Like, I do think there's a bit of a cultural. Well, I'll just speak for me. I do feel like, culturally, we talk about being alone. Like, if you're alone, you are necessarily lonely. And I just don't think that's true. I think being alone, you people, you can be alone and feel. And not feel lonely. It can be really important, and particularly with trauma, and there is a question here, but with people who have experienced trauma, I think there can be a default to be in relationship to people because it stops you actually having this connection to yourself. Does that make sense? So sometimes being alone is really important for people who have been around abusive people for a lot of their lives because they've acted as a barrier to them actually having a relationship with themselves. It can be something that's a default setting, though, that you feel most comfortable in relationship to people, even abusive people, over being alone. But have you found that that has been in stages? Important for you to actually recognize that being alone, you don't have to feel lonely. And actually, it might be healing for you to actually consider your relationship with yourself as primary.

Paul Martinez [02:40:24] Absolutely. Yeah. No, there came a point where I saw. And I do. I see it now. Incredible value in being, quote, alone, because now no one makes fun of the coats I put on. You know, I can go shopping. Like, you know, I love fashion. I have a few special interests, and no one Gets in the way of them, baby.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:42] You know, self expression. I love that.

Paul Martinez [02:40:45] Self expression. Radical self expression is one of my things.

John Dehlin [02:40:48] I wish people could see your shoes and socks. Maybe you can lift them up. I don't know.

Paul Martinez [02:40:52] Like, honestly, can you see a little higher? A little higher, A little higher.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:55] Oh, they're so great. How about your tie? Cause I feel like your tie has been behind the microphone.

Paul Martinez [02:41:01] Oh, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [02:41:01] But, like, can we just appreciate for

John Dehlin [02:41:04] a moment depra pole?

Paul Martinez [02:41:08] Love it. Oh, fashion. I love it. It's so much fun to just be yourself, you know, learn about who you are. You have no one breathing down your neck. Hey, how much is that gonna cost? You know? Hey, you know, and stopping you, you know, from learning about yourself, who you are and just being yourself. Yeah, I have learned. I love being myself. Love being ridiculous.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:33] Humor.

Paul Martinez [02:41:34] Yeah. I love ridiculous outfits. You know, did the Burning man thing, and it's all about being ridiculous, unabashed.

John Dehlin [02:41:42] Tell people what Burning man is really quick.

Paul Martinez [02:41:44] Yeah, yeah, Burning Man. Burning man is a yearly community event. It's out in the desert. It's about two weeks.

John Dehlin [02:41:51] Arizona, right? Or Nevada.

Paul Martinez [02:41:53] Nevada. Nevada. Out in Black Rock City, about 70,000 people show up and they all build camps. It's a city, and one of its prevailing principles is that of radical self expression, right? There's default worlds, which is, you know, us here, so to speak. And then there's home, which is Burning Man. And out there, it's all about you being you. You know, you do you, and I did me, man. It was so much fun to feel like, no pressure, you know, if you want to dress up like a caveman one day, wear the bone necklace, carry the bone around, act like Fred Flintstone. Go for it. People are going to love you for it. You know, if you want to dress up as a missionary from the waist up, and then not so much from the waist down and preach a gospel, go for it, you know, it's all about silly and fun in the arts. You know, you get in touch with your feelings. You know, there's a reason why dictatorships, they shut down the arts, you know, it's about feeling. Hey, how do you feel? You look at this, you know, does it inspire to do anything in this mindfulness, you sit right. What do you see in this? Wow, what a different perspective, you know, there's more than one, you know, thanks for sharing. And it's that invitation to be mindful, to be silly. And I loved it, you know. You know, there's debauchery, you know, out There, it's kind of known for it, but, you know, pretty good kid. And I stayed away from it. Pretty good kid. And I was curious. Most of it just being ridiculous. It was so much fun to just be out there and be myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:43:32] And if you think about all the ways the church brought you joy when you joined, relative to your upbringing, and then you think about everything you lost when you left the church, do you feel like you found a more fulfilled or a happier place than when you were a Mormon, and specifically when you were a happy, zealous Mormon? Because all the cult documentaries. One thing I've noticed about all the cult documentaries going clear, wild, wild country, you know, holy hell. Like, all these cult documentaries, these people will talk all day long about all the abuses they experience in the cult, and then they'll say, but I was never happier. Do you feel like you've been able to replace the things the Mormon Church gave you and find a sense of fulfillment or purpose or even joy or authenticity? Or authenticity, you know, relative to, you know, when you were a member?

Paul Martinez [02:44:31] You know, Difficult question.

John Dehlin [02:44:32] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:44:33] If I had to say when I was 100% all in, that might have been the happiest I was. But here's the thing that was then. You know, people change. They grow up.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:47] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:44:47] Okay. That's the problem. And there's nuance, Right. So at that point, I got exactly what I needed. I did Checked all the boxes, unstoppable. But then that same thing later, not so much.

John Dehlin [02:45:02] It becomes toxic.

Paul Martinez [02:45:03] It does. It becomes toxic. The relationship changed. Okay. I grew up. Church started to change, and there comes a point, there's friction. You have to think about it. All right? What does this church mean to me? What does this person mean to me? You know? And it's a struggle, right? A lot of members are there, right? They have their, you know, they're upset with things, but they don't always leave. You know, it still brings value to them. You know, ultimately with me, what I learned was when it works for me, when it doesn't, and when it's time to leave, that was the biggest thing I took away from it. You know, it helped me grow. It helped me grow.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:40] Yeah. Like when you say that, you know, it was one of the most difficult things that you've done. I think oftentimes we look at things like that and we just feel, oof. Right. Like, ugh. Which we should. But I think oftentimes when we have that fear of the difficult thing, what we don't get to see is who we become or who we are after we've done the difficult thing. And I'm just looking at you and I'm thinking about your story, and I'm thinking literally how you were born into this world, what you had, what resources and relationships you had on your table, and how many difficult things you have navigated, you know, do you feel for that? Do you have this sense of, like, who you've become as someone who has lived through so many difficult things?

Paul Martinez [02:46:34] Absolutely, Margi. Yeah. I've gone through some really tough shit, you know, recently. Recently. And all those things I've overcome, they taught me, like, no, Paul, you can do it. Like, you can do it. Tough, difficult. It's like, no, Paul, like, you're badass, dude. Like, you did the church thing, you know, you did the mission thing. Other difficult things, unfortunately, I can't share, but I. Like, I did it, you know, maybe by the skin of my teeth, but it was hard and I did it.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:02] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:47:02] You know, I do grieve, you know, I'm still grieving that, you know, that the things happened that it was so painful. There's still some grief, you know, I mean, you can see it. You see my body language and the tears. But it's made me who I am today, baby. You know, this is Paul. This is Paul you're getting. And he's this way because of these things. Absolutely.

Grief, Loneliness, and Dating After the Church

Margi Dehlin [02:47:24] Grief, I think, is a big, big thing that we don't talk a lot about. When you mention grief, what does grief look like for you?

Paul Martinez [02:47:32] Oh, my God. Thank you. Yeah. Grief is an emotion I have learned to love. Okay. Because grieving is your body working through all that pain. You need to grieve. You need to go to that funeral. You need to look in that casket. Okay. Can't pretend. Can't pretend. The sooner you cry through it, bury it, you can move on. But it's tough, Margi. It's really hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:02] Yeah. Do you have particular grief practices that help you to process and to clearly. You know, crying can be that, but like listening to music or. I don't know what you've. But to help you actually process grief.

Paul Martinez [02:48:18] Oh, my gosh. Thank you for asking that. It's music. Music has changed my life, and my neurodivergence plays a key role in that, you know, with sound. So sensory issues, right? Maybe I didn't talk about that. Sensory issues are a thing when you're on the spectrum. And touch can really hurt. Sometimes sounds can really hurt, but they can also be so pleasant. When I listen to music, I hear all the synths. I hear the bass. I hear all the frequencies. I hear the layers as they come in and out, and it's such a moving experience, and it puts me in the zone. And it's so powerful, you know, in our bodies. They need it. You know, if you're on the spectrum, it's hard. It's hard to process. It's hard to tap into the emotions. We just got to find a way, you know? And for me, it's music. Maybe it'll be something else later.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:03] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:49:04] But it's been a game changer, you know, and just processing it can hurt the body, you know, it keeps the score. And crying, crying for me. It's been a game changer.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:16] Can you notice it?

Paul Martinez [02:49:18] Yeah. And sobbing. Like, some of the most intense sobbing I've had in my life. Where neighbors, you know, they hear it. You know, they hear it, but sometimes you have to do it, you know, it's our bodies. It's something that our bodies need, and we need to take care of them.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:35] Yep. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:40] Do you want to talk, just briefly, about dating at all? You did mention your outline. You don't have to if you don't want to.

Paul Martinez [02:49:46] Absolutely. Dating. I really dated, you know, before. I was in a relationship in high school. Got married, you know, right after. Right after the mission. Dating has been so much fun. You know, I approach dating with a spirit of curiosity. You know, something happens, great. If it doesn't happen, not a big deal. You know, go in with. With the intent to meet great people and have great conversation, and that has made dating so much more pleasant and fun, you know, hopefully, you know, at worst, a friend, you know, or maybe they, you know, dating can hurt. You know, not gonna lie. You know, don't call back, don't text back, but expect it. You know, they're called relationships, you know, they're so great for a reason, because they can really hurt. But it's definitely worth the risk. You know, I mitigate some of the pain by just, you know, lowering the expectations a little bit. And it's just about meeting another incredible human being. Yeah, I did end up meeting someone, you know, with that kind of mindset. It was a great relationship. Lasted about a year, but it was hardly a waste. You know, we were both in it. You know, it's a journey. And in this case, that journey for a year made sense. You know, it was such a great relationship. Like, I have no regrets. You know, we learned so much about each other during that. It was great. You know, we were bummed. It didn't work out. Like, we tried. We tried to make it work out, and we couldn't meet each other's needs, so. So, again, like, relationships, when is the time there came a point where we could not meet each other's needs? And we were not going to be able to, at least not now. Okay. And we parted ways. You know, it was hardly contentious. You know, no one's calling their friends and saying what a bad person they were. No way. You know? Yeah. So dating has been fun. Yeah. I'd love to meet someone, but. But I've met so many great people along the way. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:38] You talk about wanting to meet someone. You got married really quickly after your mission. As you've dated, is there anything you've discovered about yourself through dating that you want to share on the podcast?

Paul Martinez [02:51:50] Oh, discovered about myself, yeah. Oh, that's in the outline?

Margi Dehlin [02:51:54] Maybe.

John Dehlin [02:51:54] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:51:55] Oh. So, you know, I approached a beginner's mind with dating. You know, I'm just starting over and. And I'm like, hey, you know what? I'm gonna pay attention to how I feel, and I'm gonna date Deuce for a bit, see what happens.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:10] Curiosity.

Paul Martinez [02:52:11] Just, like, let's just see how I feel dating men. Yeah. Dating men.

John Dehlin [02:52:15] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:52:16] Let's just try it. See how I feel. Right? Just try to, you know, mindfulness. How are you feeling? I went on a date with this guy and paying attention to how I feel, right. I'm like, you know, feeling the heart flutters, and I'm like, man, this guy's cute. You know, I felt this. And, like, I'm kind of attracted to this guy, you know, and it's been fun, you know, just being curious, being mindful, trying new things. Sometimes, you know, things go your way, sometimes they don't. Like, who cares? It's a journey, right? It's a journey.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:52:54] I mean, I'm not trying to out you, but, like, if there's a cute guy out there watching, you know, you probably want them to know.

Paul Martinez [02:53:00] I can't solicit, but, yeah. Dude, there's just so much, you know, I thought I knew. I thought I knew. My feelings were so muted. So much fawning and just listening to your voice, you know, like, pay attention to how you feel, really how you feel. Don't lie to yourself. Don't do it.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:21] That's right.

Paul Martinez [02:53:22] And mind blown. Mind blown. And I'm. Truth be told, I'm looking forward to so much else. You know, I feel like there's so much yet, like, to discover so much uncharted territory so super hopeful. Yeah. It was a bummer to leave the church, but, you know, I'm in a new phase of my life, and, you know, the fields are white, ready to harvest. You know, I'm ready. I'm ready to see what else is out there.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:44] The world is new.

Paul Martinez [02:53:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:46] Yeah. Let me ask you one last question. Just because this was a major theme in our conversation today. Are there things. Now, let me just say this. As you're getting to know people, as you're approaching relationship currently, are there things you're more aware of when it comes to toxic traits or, you know, do you ever find that you're. You can still be drawn into certain types of personalities or the opposite, that now you're actually. You can red flag someone pretty quickly? Do you want to answer that?

Paul Martinez [02:54:23] Absolutely. Mari? Yeah, I. You know, again, I'm looking for meaningful relationships, either friendship or romantic. And there are certain values I have, like, they need to have them, or if there are certain values they have, like, it's not going to work out. One thing I pay attention to is if I'm dating a single parent, how do they treat their kids? Right? How do they talk about their ex? How do they talk about the breakup? How do they talk about navigating difficult relationships? Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:49] Yes.

Paul Martinez [02:54:50] Is everyone else always the problem? You know, I was on a date with someone, and the way they treated their dog, you know, I'm like, you know, red flag. That don't work for me. You know, we can be friends.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:03] Right.

Paul Martinez [02:55:04] You know, want to do the dog park thing? Do it, but don't expect anything more than that.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:08] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:55:09] So absolutely. I'm paying attention to these things now. I just, you know, I have to train myself for it a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:14] Yeah.

Paul Martinez [02:55:15] But dating in general, meeting people, you just. You pay attention to how you feel when you see things, Right? Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:22] Yep. That's great. Thank you.

Advice for Others and Paul's Life Today

John Dehlin [02:55:25] Okay. And the last question I have is, let's just say there's the cinematic moment where somebody else, you know, is thinking about the church not working out for them or an abusive relationship not working out for them.

Paul Martinez [02:55:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:41] And they're asked the rhetorical question, where will you go by the abusive church or partner? What would your response be? You know, where did you go? Now that you're looking back, what would your response be to the question of where would you go if you leave?

Paul Martinez [02:55:57] So the Mormonism is speaking to the abusive person, to the church or to

John Dehlin [02:56:02] the abusive person, where will you go without?

Paul Martinez [02:56:04] Where will I go is literally anywhere. Literally anywhere. Yes. Because that power you unfortunately, we're conditioned. We actually give it to them. We give it to them. Yeah. You know, so just speaking to like kind of domestic violence, you have to be strategic about things like that. You do. Okay. But most, you know, everyday relationships, if it's not a serious one and things, you could go anywhere, you could break up with that person, cry your tears, everything will be just fine.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:36] And you're. And life without the church, even when the church meant everything to you, life without the church can be what?

Paul Martinez [02:56:44] Life without the church, it can be incredible. I'm glad it's out of the way in a lot of ways. You know, it really suffocated me. You know, there was a point where like, it just didn't work. It didn't work. So I don't want to say, you know, it didn't have its value. It did, John. It did. It's what I needed. You know, someone tells me, you know, hey, should I go or should I stay? When I say it depends, I'm going to tell you you should go or stay. But I'm glad I'm out. Okay. Same with abusive people I'm with. Yeah, sure had its value, but I'm glad I'm out.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:16] Right.

John Dehlin [02:57:18] Beautiful. All right, well, Paul Martinez, any, you know, if people want to reach out to you, how do people get in touch with you?

Paul Martinez [02:57:26] Absolutely, absolutely. So I work as an architect, you know, if you need an architect at Martinez Dot Design. I also do bim bim building information modeling. It's like a 3D kind of construction architectural tool. I visit ridiculous YouTube channel where I just kind of rag on Autodesk. And you can check out the channel, go to the website and reach out, you know, professionally or you know, with things church or anything we might have talked about. You know, I just love to help, you know, it's so much fun to be, you know, provide a meaningful, you know, friendship and advice to other people.

John Dehlin [02:58:06] Yeah, beautiful. All right, well, Paul Martinez, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories.

Closing Reflections and Thanks to Donors

Paul Martinez [02:58:12] It has been a pleasure and an honor. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:58:14] And Margi, thanks for being my co host.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:17] Yes. We are so grateful to have met you, Paul. Thank you.

Paul Martinez [02:58:21] Yeah, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:58:23] All right, and just really quickly, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. We couldn't do it without our donors. So thanks to everyone who's a monthly donor or an annual donor. Your donations make all this possible. We lose donors every month, 10 or 20 donors a month, sometimes more. And if we don't replace them, we have to kind of start cutting services. So if you're not a donor and you value what we do, please go to mormorestories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor. That's how we stay in business. You can also support us by subscribing on YouTube to this channel, subscribing on Facebook, on Instagram, on TikTok for as long as it's in existence, and on Facebook, sharing this episode, commenting on it, liking it, all those things really help. And then we always love your feedback. You can email us@mormonstoriesmail.com or comment on the episode. We read every comment. Both Margi and I do. And then also we love to have people apply to be on Mormon Stories. Of course, we can only accept a fraction of those who apply for lots of different reasons, but just like Paul, go to MormonStories.org, click on the apply button and go through the application process. And who knows, you may make it through. Right, Paul?

Paul Martinez [02:59:40] Yeah. Who knows?

John Dehlin [02:59:44] And then finally, we're sorry. Super grateful to Brooklyn and Julia and Maven and Gerardo and Margi and Nemo and all the people on the Open Storage foundation board that make everything possible. Couldn't do it without them. So thanks again for joining us today. Thanks again, Paul. Thanks again, Margi. Thanks to all our everyone who views or listens on the live stream and be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.