Introduction and Guest Background

Guest [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's 8-9-2, 2016 12:08pm and I'm super excited to be continuing our series on Mormon missionaries in the 2000 and tens, with an emphasis at least beginning early in the series on faith crises and early mission return. I'm really happy with the ones we've done so far. And today to continue the series, this is our fourth in the series, interviewing Trey Shortland. To give you guys a little bit of a preview, Trey served in the Brazil Goyniania. How do you pronounce that exactly? Now, Goania Goya from 2012 to 2014. Trey is. Trey identifies as Polynesian. His dad is from New Zealand. His mom is from the Philippines. And maybe a couple things that were interesting about his faith crisis. He'll talk about how he was introduced to critical thinking and logic prior to his mission and how those skills kind of brought came with him into the mission. And towards the end of his mission as a zone leader, as he began to witness sort of some troubling, let's just say, practices or situations as a zone leader, his exposure to the mission president combined with his critical thinking skills led to him maybe losing his faith on his mission. In this case, I don't think there's an early mission return. Right, Trey?

Tre Shortland [00:02:02] I didn't get interviewed by my president.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] Oh, okay. Okay. My.

Tre Shortland [00:02:07] My mission president.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Oh, okay.

Tre Shortland [00:02:09] But I can't.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] But honorably, you came home honorably.

Tre Shortland [00:02:13] Okay, yeah, they gave me one.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] And then we'll talk about what happened to. What happened to Trey's faith after he left his mission. And just another interesting thing is that Trey is a musician. He's part of a band called Seaview, which is a reggae rock band. And we used his music for the. For the bumpers. So you'll. If you notice that music a little bit different, it's because we wanted to spotlight his cool music. So with all of that. What's that?

Tre Shortland [00:02:44] I didn't know you did that.

Guest [00:02:45] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] No, I'll do it once I do the editing. Post production. So, Trey, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Tre Shortland [00:02:52] Thanks, man.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] All right, so tell us a bit about your Mormon life prior to your mission.

Tre Shortland [00:03:00] Born and raised in church, got baptized at 8. Grew up in high school in California, so I went to seminary every day. I didn't miss the day of seminary.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Wow. And this is in the Oakland area or outside of Oakland, you say?

Tre Shortland [00:03:16] Yeah, Oakland area only. Really? Like, it was like me, my brother, a couple friends. There was like, seven people in our seminary class.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Okay.

Tre Shortland [00:03:25] But I went all four years of high school because I love learning about the church. My family. I don't remember missing a Sunday at church, but we were also pretty involved with, like, all the Polynesian side of the church. So we got all that side going on. We'd go to. We had the Tongan ward at our. At our ward.

Guest [00:03:46] The.

Tre Shortland [00:03:46] Our ward would meet and then Tongan ward after. Near Oakland.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] So there was a Tongan ward near Oakland where you lived?

Tre Shortland [00:03:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] Now you don't. Now, New Zealand is a bit different than Tonga, right? Or not, I guess.

Tre Shortland [00:04:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] So my Tongans live in New Zealand. Is that right?

Tre Shortland [00:04:05] No. So my dad and mom immigrated from Philippines and New Zealand to byu, Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Okay.

Tre Shortland [00:04:11] And then there's byu, Hawaii came through, and then we landed in California. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] And so your dad is Tongan?

Tre Shortland [00:04:21] My dad's Maori. From New Zealand.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Maori. Okay. Okay. So what would your connection to a Tongan ward be? Just that it's kind of the same reach.

Tre Shortland [00:04:31] It was in the same building. It was in the same building. And so we would be. Sometimes we'd go to it, sometimes we wouldn't.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] But. But. And I'm. This is going to be my ignorance, but being. Being Maori is different than being Tongan. Right. Or are there a lot of.

Tre Shortland [00:04:42] I guess once you're Polynesian in the States, you're all just kind of grouped together. But I would say if you're, like, in Hawaii and there's a Hawaiian, Tongan. Simone.

Guest [00:04:50] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:04:50] You're all different. But I just. Once you're in the States, anyone's Polynesian, just kind of wrapped them.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Okay. So this is kind of a. This is kind of just a multicultural question. So if a Tongan and a Samoan and a Maori are in the States, do they feel a sense of unity together?

Tre Shortland [00:05:07] Yeah, I would say they feel more of a sense of unity. But like, in Hawaii, for instance, if I were talking to Tonga and Samoan, totally different, they'd rag on each other and call each other dumb. So.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Okay. Okay. And are the cultures similar or are they quite different?

Tre Shortland [00:05:22] We're looking to American point of view, but I'd say they're very different amongst each other.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Okay. So they. So Americans kind of mix them all together as looking.

Tre Shortland [00:05:31] Exactly. So you get the tattoos. They'll have, like, Simone Tong and Maori on the same thing. And I'm always just like, what are you doing mixing all those. Okay, okay. But, yeah, okay, cool.

Growing Up Polynesian and Mormon in Oakland

John Dehlin [00:05:42] So because there was a Polynesian war near you in Oakland, you had Friendships with other Polynesians.

Tre Shortland [00:05:53] So I saw both sides of the church, the normal wards and then the multicultural wards in California too, how those ran and very interesting, but I'd say most. Yeah, but I was very. I very much believed in the church doctrines. The doctrine was important to me. True. I guess. Yeah, it was kind of annoying. But I was really into the scriptures and just teaching myself more about the church, the history. I was the only one in my family got interested in what happened back then, the history. So I would look that up online in high school and then. But I was always preparing for mission and so the mission was just the thing I was going to do.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] So were you kind of a Nephi in high school? Like just all the commandments and. Or did you have.

Tre Shortland [00:06:48] I definitely tried my hardest and no one's perfect but I was, I was trying to keep all the commandments. I felt bad if I was going to do go off and I didn't. Coffee, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] Okay. So the law of chastity, word of wisdom stuff. You tried super hard to obey at all.

Tre Shortland [00:07:05] I never had sex, but when I did, I went and told my bishop. So I guess that's. You should ask. When I did break, I would run

John Dehlin [00:07:12] to the bishop and try and repent and get right.

Tre Shortland [00:07:16] Yeah.

Uncle's Influence and Early Spiritual Questions

John Dehlin [00:07:16] Okay. Tell us about your uncle and how your conversations with your uncle influenced you early on. Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:07:26] So my family was on the same house. My mom, dad, my brother, me, my Lola, grandma from the Philippines and my aunt, also from the Philippines. And then my uncle who was from Ohio, married into the family. He was a lawyer and just growing up, he had whole encyclopedias around the house just sitting there. And he would tell me for my eighth birthday on baptism, he gave me a book on logical fallacies. When I was 10, I knew what a red herring was. So that was interesting. And I guess that really didn't affect me until I started seminary where I actually got like doctrine thrown at me. And so like the first thing was Noah's Ark. It was Old Testament when I went in and just. I was like no. And just slowly it started. I had a full testimony like but if you were to pinpoint me on each doctor and I. Airy, weird view and way of looking at it.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] So you had to kind of develop an unconventional testimony.

Tre Shortland [00:08:36] Yeah, since the age of like 14. But I had a full on testimony. I was hard, I was hard. I was going, I was practicing. I would say, I know the. Which is true. But if you really pinpoint me on like I was like 15, I didn't know if Adam existed.

John Dehlin [00:08:49] And I was just like, okay, so you, so you. So you didn't take the scriptures literally in high school.

Tre Shortland [00:08:57] I just held contradicting beliefs. I would, I didn't take it literally, but then I wouldn't sometimes because I just knew it didn't make sense. But yeah, I would say I had a no one. I went unquestioned. Basically my no one really questioned me on it. So I did have an unconventional. I thought that what it was supposed to look like.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] I guess I'm gonna turn off my video for a sec just because sometimes your audio is breaking up. So don't be, don't be, don't be. No, it's not you. Don't be alarmed if you don't see me. So you so just. Cuz you broke up a bit, you're saying you had an unconventional testimony, but no one ever questioned you on it, Is that right?

Tre Shortland [00:09:37] Yeah, no one ever questioned me on it. And I also just kind of didn't fit in socially as maybe you can tell.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] But. What do you mean?

Tre Shortland [00:09:45] Like, I just, I wasn't. My family was from Philippines and New Zealand, so we didn't grow up with like the, any of the cultural uptightness. So it wasn't weird for my dad to just show up in like, like a shirt and no tie and sandals to our ward in California. And so I was used to like, even though I wasn't part of like the culture, I didn't know anything like Mormon. I was really into the doctrines, how the doctrines worked and how like Trinity versus non Trinity. You're arguing with my Christian friends about works in grace at the age of like 15 because they teach you in seminary. But I guess I wasn't, I really didn't like any of the cultural stuff, but I was very much into the doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Okay, so you're more of a doctrinal Mormon with nuanced non literal views.

Tre Shortland [00:10:37] Yeah. And I guess I didn't know they were nuance at the time.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Right, but you were not as much into the culture.

Tre Shortland [00:10:43] No.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Okay, cool, cool. So. And interestingly enough, you never got any grief from seminary teachers or other people about having untraditional views?

Tre Shortland [00:10:55] Well, I did, but I just didn't. I would say stuff and I don't ever just remember them getting answered. I was, I wasn't scared, I was vocal. I just didn't remember any answers. I just, I kind of shoved it aside. Probably wasn't the most important thing in my life. I thought it Was. But I just was more concerned about my social life in high school, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. So was it. Was it. When it came time for a mission, did you go at age 19 or 18?

Tre Shortland [00:11:23] 19.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Okay, so, yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:11:26] You went about a year and a half at byu. Hawaii before I went.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] How was that?

Tre Shortland [00:11:31] Interesting, because that's where I learned the details of evolution and biology, and that's where my physics teacher taught me the big Bang down to the, like, trillionth of a millisecond. And then that's where. And so I just had all this stuff. And it was weird because they were all members, too, and I just didn't understand how they're making it all work. But that's all I was surrounded by. So I guess they did make it work at the time. So I was just like, well, I guess almost failing this class. So this guy knows a lot more than I do. So I guess Mormonism was still correct. I didn't have any problems with it because of that.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Yeah. I remember a meeting I had with Elder Holland once where he told me he believed in evolution, but that it had nothing to do with the truthfulness of the gospel. I think you can just kind of separate all that. Right. You could just say, well, these. The. The Earth is billions of years old and evolution is true, and maybe Noah didn't exist, but the gospel is true and you just don't connect the dots. Right.

Tre Shortland [00:12:38] Yeah, that does seem to seem like how I viewed it. But I will tell you, two weeks before I left my mission, had my call, everything was ready to go. I found. Was it that I am an ex Mormon channel on YouTube?

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Okay. Yeah, I remember that.

Tre Shortland [00:12:58] And it was cool because I hated the I am the Mormon videos.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Why?

Tre Shortland [00:13:03] Because at the time, I was just like, they were so bad. I was like, these are terrible. These are not. There's no substance. And I was like. I was fully believing at the time. And I was just like, oh, these are just. Because, like, I really like the Killers. I watched that one. I was like this pure celebrity. Just, like, worship.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] So even the Brandon Flowers one you didn't love.

Tre Shortland [00:13:23] I don't love. There was no substance. I was like, oh, cool. These guys get to teach me about. I don't know. And then I was just like, oh, we're happy. I guess. And I guess it was.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Yeah, you were wanting doctrine.

Tre Shortland [00:13:36] It's just. I was a Mormon and I knew that's. Yeah. And I was like, this isn't. This is just like a commercial.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Yeah. I mean, they were. They were commercials to make the jokes of Capilla.

Tre Shortland [00:13:47] As a fully believing Mormon, I was frustrated. And then so I found the I am in the exmorm videos. I was like, oh, these are people telling genuine things about their shitty lives. And then, yeah, there's that gay guy. I don't remember his name, but he told like, he had like a 10 minute video of his whole gay therapy session. And this was two weeks before I went on a mission. And so I went into the mtc, like, oh, I got this thing I gotta resolve.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] So you were sympathetic for the. For the issue of homosexuality just.

Tre Shortland [00:14:18] Right, Totally. I was crying. I was like, why? Because I didn't know it was happening. I didn't know I was. I was out in the streets in California holding Prop 8 signs at the age of like, 12. I had no idea you.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] You were supporting Prop 8.

Tre Shortland [00:14:32] I had no clue. I was just, like, out there.

Guest [00:14:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] Okay. And so what made you cry about it?

Tre Shortland [00:14:40] The guy's story. He. He told it and it was so sad. And it was purely caused by Mormon doctrine. The only reason he was sad. And that bugged me, but I just shelved that for my mission until I taught a gay guy. But we can get to that.

John Dehlin [00:14:58] Okay, so was it that video that made you sympathetic or was it other life experiences?

Tre Shortland [00:15:03] Yeah, so it was all the. It was just a video. I really had no other exposure to really, like, other ideas except for the books that, like, my. My uncle would give me, who, like, he gave me books on history about, like, China, about different philosophy. I read. Let me read Aristotle, Plato, Nietzsche. And so I didn't. But I didn't have access, ever, to other forms of viewing the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] So you didn't. You didn't.

Tre Shortland [00:15:35] I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Did you know any gay people growing up or that you knew of?

Tre Shortland [00:15:39] Yeah, so I had. Yeah. And I was friends with someone in high school because we were close to San Francisco, so our gay club was huge. So I was friends with some. And he even slept over at my house one time. So I had no. I had no. Like, I had that millennial. No problem with it, you know?

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:15:54] But doctor, when I did, I would. I was out doing Prop 8. I was. I would. If someone asked me, like, yeah, it's wrong. They have to just shun that part of them. And so I didn't have any. I hadn't really thought about it much, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] Yeah, yeah. Just connecting the dots, right? We don't connect the dots. Okay, so you watch this video and you Cry because you. Just because of the pain this guy is describing. Is that right?

Tre Shortland [00:16:18] Exactly. And I knew the only cause of the immense sort of pain was from the Mormon doctrines, policies and the way they tried to do the re. Make him straight again, basically at the time.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] Did you connect that to Prop 8 and feel any guilt or shame?

Tre Shortland [00:16:36] No, I had. So I had no idea what I was. I guess I was too young to understand what Prop 8 was. They would just teach us about it. I was like 13.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] You're just holding signs.

Tre Shortland [00:16:44] Yeah, I was holding signs. I was out there engaged.

Doubts Before the Mission and MTC Experience

John Dehlin [00:16:51] Okay, so was that your only major doubt going into the mtc?

Tre Shortland [00:16:55] My major doubt was whether God existed or not.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Okay, so you were actually questioning God?

Tre Shortland [00:17:01] Yeah. And so all the little stuff didn't support me. I was like, if God existed, the Mormon Church is true. Which is. I don't know what to think about that. And if God doesn't exist? Well, nothing. But that was my only real back and forth.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] Did you try talking to anyone about your doubts about God before?

Tre Shortland [00:17:17] Yes, I did. I talked to my young men's president and my stake president. How were they so interesting enough, one young men's president worked at Goldman Sachs. I really looked up to him because I wanted to major in economics. And my stake president graduated from Yale. So instantly I had this me 17 year old not doing very well in school. I was like, oh, these are smart guys. And they were nice to me too. He raised me through young men's two smart guys that graduated from Yale and Stanford. So I told them my problems about the church and they gave me some. Now that I look back, they gave me just normal church answers and I took it and ran with it and I went on my mission and they convinced me to go on my mission. But I don't blame them for it.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] So their answers about God, do you remember what they told you to make you feel better about God?

Tre Shortland [00:18:07] Yeah, I guess. Now I see they're mostly reverting it back to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. And so none of my deep God problem questions were ever answered or anything. So they would bring me back to. It was like, oh, so if the atonement and the restoration are true and then they would lead it back to. Then God exists. So. Okay, don't worry about it.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] Got it. Okay, cool. So what in the empty. When did you start? Was the MTC a problem for you?

Tre Shortland [00:18:41] Yeah, the MTC was a huge problem. Why I went in there, I had a.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] This is the Provo mtc.

Tre Shortland [00:18:47] Yeah. So yeah, Provo mtc First companion. Very nice guy. We got a lot. I didn't have a really problem getting along with any of the guys in my group, but first night or second night, this kid's crying. And I was like, oh, no, why are you crying, bro? He said he didn't know if the church was true. And I was like, oh, damn it. I was like, no. And so I comforted him. And I was like, well, it is true. Get with it, because you got two years to go, buddy.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Dude.

Tre Shortland [00:19:20] I was like, first. Second night, he was bald. I was like, oh, we got two years of this.

John Dehlin [00:19:25] So did you know it was true or were you just trying to comfort him?

Tre Shortland [00:19:29] No, I just. I would. I. At the time, I guess my mind, I was like, oh, God, I got two years of this. And I was really trying to convince myself. So I got told the line, you get your testimony and the bearing of it. And so I just ran around doing that all the time. I know. I just throwing I nose all around.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Yeah. So, like, you were the strong one. You got to play the role of the believer.

Tre Shortland [00:20:00] Oh, yeah. I comforted him back into it, and he was happy about it. But of course, like, I was really just talking to myself, I guess because I wanted it to be true really badly because I was going to Brazil.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] But you had never had. Had you ever had a witness where you knew it was true?

Tre Shortland [00:20:22] On my mission, I did. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] But prior to the mtc, you hadn't.

Tre Shortland [00:20:27] Not really, No. I was. I had convinced myself it was true.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Okay, okay. Because you wanted it to be true.

Tre Shortland [00:20:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Okay. All right. So anything else about the MTC that was a problem for you?

Tre Shortland [00:20:41] Just the whole thing in general, people go. Like it was. People would go mad. Like, my crying for no reason. The emotional. Just instability I saw. And just coupled with. No one knew what they were doing. Everyone was insecure. The first time at the temple, we were all discussing the temple and no one liked it. There's six elders in the room all talking about it for the first time. Everyone's. That was weird. And so, no, I didn't. And so I wanted it so badly to be true. But like, three days in, just piling, just this huge, like, more doubts on me.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] Yeah, yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:21:28] Everyone was faking it, basically. I mean, they were true. They probably gained their testimonies midway through the mission. But first two days I was there, everyone hated the temple. My companion was crying because he didn't believe in the church. And I was like. And then I. Everyone looked at me because I was bearing My testimony, I was like, I don't either. So just like six elders in a room not believing, being ready to be just thrown out there.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:21:57] So that was nothing really specific, but that was a general attitude.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Okay, so how'd you get over that and finish your mtc?

Tre Shortland [00:22:06] So I just. I finished MDC because I wanted to. I don't know, I'm not perfect. I wanted to look good too. I wanted to. I don't want to go home from the mtc. Yeah. So I just stuck it out, ate as much as I could in the cafeteria because I knew I wouldn't have it in Brazil, and got sent off to the Brazil MTC to finish off the week. And then I went to the field.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] So you just. You just kind of buried the doubts and tried to play the role of a believer, is that right?

Tre Shortland [00:22:36] Yeah. And then once I got on, I got my senior companion, and then once I got in the routine of things, I was like, I was all in believing, bearing my testimony like 10 times a day. And so I was wrapped up in it once I got on the field.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] Once you got to Brazil.

Tre Shortland [00:22:49] Yeah. I had so much fun. I love the Brazilian people, so they're my people. So I was like, hey, I just had fun with them, and I wasn't really worried about it. Only at night or during study would I really like praying for, like, a testimony. And it's really weird that I would go around saying, I know the truth is true, and I didn't have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Yeah. I remember the first time I had to bear my testimony on my mission, saying, I have to say I know because it sounds lame to say I believe or hope.

Tre Shortland [00:23:18] Exactly. How are you gonna. Like, you're not gonna be. Not powerful.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] Yeah. So I'm like, well, I don't really know, but I have to say I know because I'm about to teach an investigator. So I'll say I know, and hopefully I'll come to know it by bearing it, just like you said. And so in some sense, I guess you learned a lie that probably sounds.

Tre Shortland [00:23:38] No, I. Harsh. I did. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] That's how you feel. You kind of had to lie.

Tre Shortland [00:23:44] Well, it taught me, so it taught me. I would say in general, throughout the most thing, I learned a lot of, like, accidental, like, psychological lessons. I was like, oh, I can believe two contradicting things at once, or I can tell myself something is true.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] Yeah, that.

Tre Shortland [00:24:02] That's a possible thing to do to yourself. And so once I was aware of that kinda, I just started not really doubting the Church, but kind of doubting myself in a good way, in a healthy way on my mission for sure.

Finding and Losing a Testimony in the Field

John Dehlin [00:24:16] So you said at some point you actually gained a testimony, which is weird for you to say because you don't believe now.

Tre Shortland [00:24:22] Yeah, I can tell you about that.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] So what happened?

Tre Shortland [00:24:25] So we were teaching my first baptism and I guess I made this my testimony giver because it was my first baptism. I had never felt something like that before. This one very nice lady, just listening to everything hanging on my every word. Everything I said was correct. Do you want to get baptized? Yes. So I showed her the picture of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery translating the plates next to each other. You know that one? Uh huh, yeah, the classic one.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:24:53] And I borrowed my testimony, I looked at her and I said the Book of Mormon is true. It was translated by God told me the whole thing, everything preached my gospel so much just emotion. And I was crying, she was crying and we all hugged, she fed us cake after we said a prayer. But that was the most beautiful experience ever. And I showed her that picture. And now you and I both know that picture is not correct.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Yeah, right.

Tre Shortland [00:25:18] So my whole rest of the two years was based on this nice little thing I had with this picture, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] So you bore your testimony and you felt something.

Tre Shortland [00:25:33] I felt something. So that picture was the reason for my testimony.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Wow. And what'd you feel?

Tre Shortland [00:25:38] I felt amazing. And I was the best missionary ever. After that I was running people's homes. I ever get baptized. Church is true.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] So what if that was the Holy Ghost?

Tre Shortland [00:25:48] Huh?

John Dehlin [00:25:48] What if that was.

Tre Shortland [00:25:49] I think it was, man. And I'm just. No, seriously, I'm just kidding. If it was the Holy Ghost, then no.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] How do you look at it now? Because at the time you thought it was the Holy Ghost.

Tre Shortland [00:26:01] Well, now we both know it's an untrue fact. So why would the Holy Ghost. Like that's not how it happened. It happened a little bit, but like I can't imagine that I would have held up a picture of a rock and a hat and had an equally experience. So if that was the Holy Ghost, then damn, he tricked me.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] So, so how do you look at that now?

Tre Shortland [00:26:30] I just. My beliefs, I guess aren't that important to me, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Or is it just there were emotions that you were told to interpret as a witness of the Holy Ghost?

Tre Shortland [00:26:43] Yeah, I guess I would interpret it now that, yeah, I had a very special experience and I felt something insane as close to any drug trip that you can think of.

Guest [00:26:54] Really.

Tre Shortland [00:26:54] It was euphoric and that lasted for a long time. I could think back every time I prayed, I would think back on that time and how I gave my testimony and God finally gave me an answer. But now I would say that, yeah, I got caught up in my emotions. They just happen. I'm happy, I'm sad, and whatever. And I don't need to form my beliefs around them. And even if I do form beliefs around them or not around them, there's not that important to me anymore. I just try to.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Okay, so for you now, feelings of euphoria don't necessarily mean the church is true.

Tre Shortland [00:27:34] They're nice. Every once in a while you get a feeling euphoria, like, oh, cool, that was dope. And just going two lines. But no, that's a ridiculous feeling. Feel good? Something's true. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] Right. Okay, cool. So that. It sounds like that carried you through 18 months of your mission.

Tre Shortland [00:27:53] Yeah, I say the next 12 months because the last six months got just wrecked.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Okay.

Tre Shortland [00:28:00] So yeah, that was my testimony building, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] How many, how many baptisms a month did your mission have on average?

Tre Shortland [00:28:14] I forget the number, but I would say that per, like couple. For two elders, it wasn't uncommon to baptize anywhere from like three to nine a month.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] In a month.

Tre Shortland [00:28:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] So you were, you were baptizing every month somewhere between three and nine people on average.

Tre Shortland [00:28:33] That was average. I actually did have like a six month dry spell. So that was if you can imagine going dry spells in like, like Italy or something. You can imagine when everyone around you is baptizing like a couple months and I was just didn't baptize for six months and I beat myself up over it.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Were you a super obedient missionary?

Tre Shortland [00:28:58] You know, there's no reason to hide my sins anymore. So I would say, other than occasional whack off. Yeah, I was, I was pretty obedient. I didn't break any. I had no reason to break any rules.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Did you feel a lot of guilt and shame about that?

Tre Shortland [00:29:15] Horrible. Yeah. But yeah, I did. That was terrible. Horrible.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] How did you. Did you. And this is a really important thing to talk about because every missionary is tormented over this.

Tre Shortland [00:29:28] Yeah. And I only found that out, like after I was. I would. I talked to one close missionary and he was like, yeah, everyone's actually, the mission president had a whole zone conference on masturbation.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] Had you. So I'm guessing you had masturbated before your mission, right?

Tre Shortland [00:29:44] Oh, yeah, I just, I just, I was, I was through the cycle I was through the monthly, like, do it, repent, repeat, recycle.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] And would you tell your mission. Would you tell your bishop before your mission about it?

Tre Shortland [00:29:57] I would tell him all the time, except I didn't tell him, like, the week before I left because I was like, I don't want to risk delay. So, like, I was always truthful about it, except for, like, right before I went, they're like, oh, you don't masturbate. Right? I was like, no.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] Meaning you're not doing it at the moment, because in your mind, you had stopped at least for a month.

Tre Shortland [00:30:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Okay, so you weren't. See some missionaries. This is. This is crazy. Some young men are kept from going on missions because they masturbate.

Tre Shortland [00:30:29] Right. Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] Right.

Tre Shortland [00:30:30] I was risking that.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] So for you, you just didn't tell the truth?

Tre Shortland [00:30:35] Only that last time. I really. I told the bishop so many other times.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Yeah, but that's a really important thing, is that if there's a really strict bishop that really is focusing on that, he can keep a guy from going on a mission or delay him for months or even years. And so it's just so unfair, the disparity between how some people are treated and other people are just let go.

Tre Shortland [00:31:02] Yeah. Only now I realize I was lucky.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] Yeah. And probably normal. Don't you? Yes.

Tre Shortland [00:31:09] Absurd. The amount of mental torment in games. They had the pamphlet on the mission. It said it was written by some apostle. Back then it was like, oh, for tricks. Keep your hands under your. Under your body while you're laying down. Or don't rest your hands on your chest. God, it's so bad. Tips and tricks.

Mission President Interviews and Pressure Around Chastity

John Dehlin [00:31:33] Did your mission president ever ask you in his interviews?

Tre Shortland [00:31:36] Oh, every single one. This was the biggest deal ever. Masturbation. It was my mission president's, like, mantra.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] So you'd tell him I did this month or whatever and.

Tre Shortland [00:31:51] Yeah, no, I would always tell him I did it last month.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] And what would he say?

Tre Shortland [00:31:56] He said what I expected to say.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] Just try not to do it.

Tre Shortland [00:31:59] Try not to do it. This is more lenient because I lied about the time spans. I was like, it wasn't yesterday, it was last month. But I was still confessing to me. That was good enough.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] Okay, so. But you would try each month not to do it?

Tre Shortland [00:32:12] I would try every single day.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:32:14] This is. I don't know if I want. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] That's all right. Go ahead.

Tre Shortland [00:32:19] It feels like me and you talking so blur. My voice, my face. No, I would. Yeah, I would think about it. Trying not to do it every single day. That was the biggest. Trying to get my contacts and door knocking in and then not masturbating was probably the two big priorities.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Oh, my gosh.

Tre Shortland [00:32:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] It's crazy, right?

Tre Shortland [00:32:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] And. And okay, so you probably just felt a lot of guilt and shame. So he had a mission. He had a zone conference about it or what?

Tre Shortland [00:32:46] He had his own conference and he went up in just his way. He was a very charismatic guy. Brazilian. Brazilians love Americans, so they totally love the Mormon Church. Everything about it's American. They love all that. So my mission president was staunch businessman, charismatic. And he went around, he said, I know from interviews that many of you are masturbating.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] What's the word in Brazilian for masturbation?

Tre Shortland [00:33:14] Masturbassau.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Say it.

Tre Shortland [00:33:17] Can you say that?

John Dehlin [00:33:18] Masturbassau.

Tre Shortland [00:33:19] It's the only Portuguese you know now.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] I said Brazilian. I meant Portuguese.

Tre Shortland [00:33:26] Okay. So, yeah, he had the zone conference and said, I know a lot of you are masturbating from your interviews. And of course, the whole room got tense. We had all the zone leaders in there, and it was like, oh, and the craziest thing I ever heard. He leaned over the sisters and he said, even some of the sisters are masturbating. And I looked over to the sister zone leaders that we had at the time, and like, two of their faces got just jerked and I looked down. I was like, what the fuck is happening here?

Guest [00:34:06] So that was that.

Tre Shortland [00:34:07] I was like, holy. Even the women must be. And so all like that. What was that zone conference? I just. Just picturing these sisters just, like, sprawled out on, like, the thing while my mission president's confessing all their sins. Wow, that was absurd.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Okay. Any other. Okay, so.

Tre Shortland [00:34:35] So masturbation was also the reason no one was baptizing, ever. Even baptizing.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] So God can't. God's going to withhold people's salvation because the elders can't restrain themselves.

Tre Shortland [00:34:50] So this very topic is the thing that got me thinking about, oh, wow. Their salvation is dependent on my worthiness. And I started connecting. I was like, oh, so if I'm worthy, they will go to heaven, and if I'm not worthy, they won't go to heaven. I was like, this is weird.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:35:11] And I just. And of course, you're supposed to take that personal. Like empathy to every investigator that you have. And I did that. And it was horrible because I was. Of course I would mess up. And only thing, too, I would really. I was getting up at 6:30. I was reading my scriptures. I was putting on my tie every day, shaving every day. So I was really trying to do everything else in that one thing and just I was blaming my worthiness. But then by the time before my mission ended, I had made the. Connected the dots that it would be theoretically impossible to put for God's place this responsibility of salvation on an elder or even on a. On a bishop. So everyone thinks like, their worthiness is everyone else's salvation.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:36:03] So a bishop might feel that, I don't know, he may probably stake president, all the members in the ward, each missionary for all the investigators they're teaching. So I definitely felt that. But that that topic on masturbation and it affecting your baptism is actually what helped me connect the dot. That. That's. I can't. There's no way.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] Interesting.

Tre Shortland [00:36:25] Can't be. And so that helped me make a philosophical jump or a theological jump to my people are. That's. That can't. Doesn't make any sense. There's no way.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] Yeah, but it must have played with your mind if you went six months without a baptism. If you're six months without a baptism, you must have been blaming yourself, right?

Tre Shortland [00:36:46] Yeah, we had a baptism and then we had a baptism marked. And the day before she called us, she's like, I don't want to do it anymore. And me and my companion, I saw my companion break down. So nice guy from Seattle, Washington, me, two Americans in the middle of this, like, desert road run. He just broke down bawling, and I was just like, oh, my God, this is horrible. So that would. No, all the blame was on us.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] That's so hard.

Tre Shortland [00:37:12] Which I didn't understand because the mission president was taking care of us and my worthiness and salvation was on the line.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Right.

Tre Shortland [00:37:19] So I was like, oh, his salvation. I was like, oh, we're all masturbating. You're going to hell, man.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] It's the mission president.

Tre Shortland [00:37:28] You're fine. Yeah, that's the logical, like, to mission president. Then the apostles and Thomas Monson. And I was like, fuck you, God.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] That's awesome. Okay, so really quickly, my very first podcast talked about my mission in Guatemala, where missionaries would do really unethical things to get the baptism numbers. Did you ever see that kind of stuff in Brazil where missionaries were doing unethical things to get their numbers up?

Ethical Concerns and Baptism Pressure in the Mission

Tre Shortland [00:37:59] Yeah, unethical stuff. But all the stuff that you're talking about was definitely the older generation. So I'd knock on doors like, oh, I had some of you baptized me 15 years ago in some pool. So the Most unethical, I would say happened was if we wanted a kid baptized, they were getting baptized no matter what, like. Most kids. Yeah. If you had a kid and he's wanting to get baptized, his parents weren't objecting, and they were getting baptized.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] And did that feel right, Wrong to you? How did that feel to you when you saw that happen?

Tre Shortland [00:38:39] So awesome. When I showed my mission president had nine baptisms in a month. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] And it was mostly kids.

Tre Shortland [00:38:46] Yeah. And he took. And coincidentally, my zone happened to win. There was a competition. So whoever got the most baptisms in the month, he would buy. He bought everyone tickets to the theme park that was in the city.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] Oh, my gosh.

Tre Shortland [00:39:01] Yeah. And so we won that. We won that month. And it would have to be in my last month on the mission. And so he took us out to the theme park, and I went home.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Okay. So. So there was this incentive program to incentivize missionaries to get.

Guest [00:39:16] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:39:16] It was called Celestial P Day.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] Huh?

Tre Shortland [00:39:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Crazy. Any other incentives besides.

Tre Shortland [00:39:23] I did not think it was bad back then? I got the nine. I was like, juice?

Guest [00:39:29] No.

Tre Shortland [00:39:30] Because it was a day. Everyone else was out knocking doors, and we were at the amusement park, which shows you how much we really wanted to do missionary work.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] So in the mission, was there a lot of pressure for numbers then?

Tre Shortland [00:39:42] Oh, my God, yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Like, in what way?

Tre Shortland [00:39:46] Every single number was the most important, and they were all so high. So when I got back home, a lot of people were, like, sad that they didn't baptize that much. My friend served in Romania, and he was like, oh, you must have felt great baptizing that much. And honestly, when you're expected to baptize 12amonth and you only baptize one or two, you feel like.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] So was that the expectation?

Tre Shortland [00:40:09] 12 expectation was am in thousands. Every zone conference was only about just thousands. Cast your net. Bring them all in. Baptize everyone. So I thought I could. I honestly believe, like, one. Before I left my mission, I was going to baptize like, a thousand.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:40:29] And I'd be the man, and I'd come home just right.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] So a lot of pressure.

Tre Shortland [00:40:37] Oh, so much pressure. There was a Celestial P Day. We had an incentive program.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Were there other incentives offered besides that?

Tre Shortland [00:40:44] Yeah, there was, like, first, second, third place.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] And then what types of stats are you keeping that you had to report

Tre Shortland [00:40:54] people in church member lessons with members. It's been two years, so I might be a little bit members. And then, of course, baptism, confirmation.

Guest [00:41:05] And.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] What was the retention like? Did you have A sense for retention rates of converts.

Tre Shortland [00:41:15] Yeah, the statistics at the time, he told us that his own conference were like 10%.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] So 10% of the people baptized would remain active after a year. Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:41:27] So through my whole mission, I did see most of my people stay active, interestingly enough. So all the people I baptized at the beginning, I visited at the end, and they were still active.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] That's good. I've heard that there's, like a million missing members just in Brazil. Have you heard?

Tre Shortland [00:41:44] Oh, my God. Brazil is the. They send 10% of missionaries to Brazil, and most of the time it's fucking lawless. Like, mission president is king. And so it's just a mess down there. Holy shit.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] But the wards, I'm imagining the wards have huge roles with few people attending, right?

Tre Shortland [00:42:07] Yeah, I would say so. Where I served, I don't know about other big cities like Rio or Sao Paulo. I was in the small area.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] I Remember wards with 8, 900 people and just 20 people attending.

Tre Shortland [00:42:18] Yeah, yeah. It was very normal.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] That was normal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So what. So what happened the last six months of your mission?

Becoming Zone Leader and Leadership Disillusionment

Tre Shortland [00:42:31] So I got promoted to zone leader after being junior for a year and a half. I was. So, no, I wasn't pissed. I was junior. I was happy because I really didn't want to. As long as sitting on the couch talking to someone, that was fine, so they could do all the planning. So I was junior for a year and a half, and I didn't have a personal problem with it. I just started hearing, no matter how much they would say, no position matters. I tried to believe that, but it's hard when the culture doesn't say so. And so I was junior for a year and a half, and I beat myself over. Beat myself up over it. And then I got promoted to zone leader, and my first zone conference, he told everyone, he's like, I transferred you because I only wanted the best and the brightest and the most spiritual to be leading our mission right now. And I was like, oh, crap. That whole year and a half that I was working really hard and knocking doors and sweating my ass off and trying to be humble, I was like. I was put there because I was shit. And then finally I was zone leader. I was like, oh, man, I'm important now. So I never had the personality to boss people around. So come to the phone calls, and I didn't have the heart to do what I would see done all the time, which is. Elder, why the hell aren't you out? Like, what were your hours like? We Tracked our hours. How many hours were you working? And none of us had jobs before, so the fact that we all worked 65 hours plus a week wasn't weird. And I got a zone leader. And then almost instantly, I witnessed just a giant, like, sex scandal.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] So, yeah. What can you tell us about that?

Tre Shortland [00:44:22] Yeah, so a companion came up to me one night, and he said, I think I might go home. And I said, oh, my God, why don't go home? He was ap. I was zone leading. And he said, I suck some guy's dick. And I was like, oh. And I was very obedient.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] So he was gay.

Tre Shortland [00:44:46] So this is the part where. So I was like, okay, let's step back. I was. I was frantic. I had no idea what to do. I didn't. I was junior until I got promoted to zone leader. And now this guy's telling me he had gay relations. I was like, where? And then I was like, how did I even find out? And then he was like, the secretary found pictures and showed him to the president.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Oh, my gosh.

Tre Shortland [00:45:16] And he was crying. I didn't actually like this guy very much. He was a bad. He was a bad friend, bad companion. But he was crying, and I didn't like him. He was manipulative, and I wanted to go away. I was like, oh, finally, he'll get. He'll get transferred. And so he was crying, and I felt really bad for him. And I actually knew the other guy, too, that he did it with. It was in a church building during district.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] Was it another missionary?

Tre Shortland [00:45:43] It's another missionary, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] Holy moly.

Tre Shortland [00:45:49] And at the time, I was like, I. My world was rocked. I was like, bruh, I don't even know how to plan. Like, I'm trying to figure out how to, like, call these missionaries, and you dump this on me? And then he ran. He, like, ran away or something. President came to interview me. I didn't say a word. And he tried. No, he got personal. He gave me a blessing before we started. And he said, all your sins are forgiven. He said. He let me know that Jesus Christ had all my sins forgiven. And I was happy, but I was confused. I was like, what? And then he started asking me. He was like, so what happened? What do you know happened between my friend. I was like, I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. For all now, everyone could be just hallucinating, going crazy. I don't know. So I just. That's.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Why did you start by forgiving you of all your sins? Was it so you'd be honest and tell them the truth.

Tre Shortland [00:46:45] Well, now we can make a guess. But at the time. At the time, I just. I. It was so weird. I was like, oh, okay, my sins are forgiven. And then later, I found out that he forgave the whole mission. Sins, wow. Yeah, he's a powerful dude. Well, because one guy, we were sitting in a circle, and he was like, of course this guy was bragging. And so we were sitting in a circle, like, you know what? Like, I had a really spiritual blessing, crying and said, president Resolve me of all my sins. And in my mind, I was like, me too. And then some other kid said, me too. And I was like, damn it.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] Wow.

Tre Shortland [00:47:25] And then. So obvious. By this time, I had one month left and a year and a half in my mission. I had full respect for my president. I would hug him. He was the greatest, most beautiful spiritual man alive. Like, he was funny. We talked about deep doctrines and he was cool. And then he found out about the sex thing. And then he. I asked my friend, I was like, what's gonna happen? Are you going home? And he said no. He talked with the first presidency, which I. Probably someone was lying there, but. And then he's just gonna move me to another city. And I was like, so what's gonna happen? He's like, I'm becoming senior, and then he's let me go home. And I was like, why? So he didn't want to cause a scene between everyone, all the missionaries. And I just started crying. I was like, what the fuck, man?

John Dehlin [00:48:13] I was like, why were you crying?

Tre Shortland [00:48:15] Because I gave. I gave my whole. I gave my all, man. Like, I. I know I didn't fit. I didn't fit up growing in church. I didn't fit on the mission. But I. I walked under the sun. I Woke up at 6:30. I. I loved the people. I learned the language. No one else fucking learned the language. They all come back. And I love the people. I love Brazilians. And I tried so hard. And I studied and I studied. And to hear President say, this guy didn't very much like. But I didn't want anything bad to happen to him. The president just didn't want. I thought I lived my life for two years under the pretense that someone was receiving direction from God. And I gave everything I had. And my parents aren't rich, and we paid for remission. I came back with nothing and all this useless knowledge. I read the fucking Book of Mormon Bible like five times. And at the end, I just saw my mission president was Politics. And he bought us that thing to amusement park. I had my fun, and my parents came and picked me up from Brazil, and I showed them all my recent converts, and we hung out with friends and I just left the mission. I was like, I don't care. I was like, he doesn't need to interview me. Came home with honor.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] So for you, you were expecting him to punish that missionary?

Tre Shortland [00:49:59] I was expecting something somewhat that would make sense to happen, and it didn't. He just moved the guy. And I saw people get sent home for the stupidest reasons. And because he didn't want to make a scene, he didn't want his choice, his bad choice of calling this manipulative guy's assistant. Just put him away, let him finish quietly, sent him home with honor, and that was it. Is that my honor? I came with honor. No, there is no value to that because I got home and I was treated like a king. And so everyone was like, wow, shake my hand. And in my mind, I just walked down the aisle of church like, you bastard. You bastard. You bastard. Didn't tell me. You didn't tell me the mission was like this. No one told me. That sucked.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] So in your mind the mission let that guy off for political reasons, just to manage the impressions of the missionaries.

Tre Shortland [00:51:07] Exactly. So I didn't want anything bad to him because surprisingly enough, when he told me he sucked that guy's dick, I kind of didn't care. I was like, you know what? I'm 20, live in San Francisco. I've. I don't know. So I knew I had to care, though. So I did care. So I cared if God was real, if this was all, it would work itself out. And it didn't. And it's. I'm not a problem that he didn't get in trouble. I'm actually glad he didn't get in trouble or that someone didn't know. I just wanted the same man that was telling me my sins were forgiven to act somewhat like in the rest of his life that seemed like he had a better connection with God than I did. And so that's what I wanted to happen. I wanted the same man that I respected and loved and that taught me a lot of doctrines and that promised me things. Forgive me my sins. Got me in trouble. When I masturbated, the guy confided on all my masturbation stuff. I wanted something somewhat making sense to happen, and it made no sense. He bought this amusement park thing, and my friend got sent to mission purgatory or whatever because he gay Sex with an elder.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] And this is just me playing devil's advocate.

Tre Shortland [00:52:26] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:52:26] So what if somebody says no, that God told him to forgive everybody and it's okay, and that's what God told him to do? What would keep you from being okay with that?

Tre Shortland [00:52:36] That's fine. But the problem comes when you get those zone conference masturbation things where it's just like, oh, that's also true. You know, like, I'm fine with the other thing being true, but the fact that you give one man so much power to basically convince people of what to believe. He's the. He tells you what, what you can't read, what you can read, what you can listen to, what you can do, what you can think, what you can say, what companion you're going to be with. He can make your life hell if he wants to without you knowing. And I saw that happen too, so that's fine. That can be true. He can. I guess that's cool. My sins are still forgiven, so I'm good, bro.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] But. But it sounds like if it was

Tre Shortland [00:53:25] true, then the rest. Then it's very tricky because a lot of other mission experience don't line up with my sins being forgiven by a very spiritual man.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] Yeah, I mean that's a really bold thing to say. I have communication with God and Jesus and I've been informed by them that your sins are forgiven you.

Tre Shortland [00:53:51] Yeah, I was surprised at how weird I felt because I was like, oh yes, I felt that. And then I just felt weird because I wasn't a different person, you know? Yeah, but. Yeah, I was weird.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] So you. So the. But, but the power that someone wields by.

Tre Shortland [00:54:06] Exactly. So that can be true. Yes, he could have. He can talk to God and he can say, yes, your sins are forgiven and that's fine, but that same person is dealing with your sexual problems, you know?

John Dehlin [00:54:20] Yeah.

Tre Shortland [00:54:21] And so if it's not true, you got shit on the line.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] Yeah. Because it's really severe stuff.

Tre Shortland [00:54:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] And if the guy is sending people home for dumb, insignificant things, but then forgiving oral sex by an ap, then if God's behind that. Earlier you said fu God. Because what it might speak to is what a messed up God, if God's okay with all that. And so the.

Tre Shortland [00:54:53] So I actually did. I thought that while I got off my mission, I came home, did a welcome home thing, bore my testimony, still had a full believing thing was going to institute and reading my scriptures. And so I, I believe that he had forgiven me of my sins at the time I Had sins in the three months after that, but I believed it. And that's what I, that's the conclusion I came to. I was like, you know what if God exists, he's just kind of messing with me right now or a lot of people too. So I had that truth. I was like, yeah, he forgive me of my sins, but he also had me deal with a crazy mission president. So my view of God changed. And I was like, it was kind of more. I was okay with God being shitty. But yeah, that only lasted like three months after my mission. And then so three months after I decided to leave.

Leaving the Church and Processing the Experience

John Dehlin [00:55:50] So tell us about how you went from attending institute to deciding to leave.

Tre Shortland [00:55:57] So I had like two days after I went and visited that I am ex Mormon YouTube channel. And I was like, oh, I'll just listen to these guys. I really had no problem listening to other people's stories. I'll just listen to what you guys say.

Guest [00:56:11] And

Tre Shortland [00:56:14] it was an emotional thing having people explain how hard it was to leave the church. And I think deep down I knew it would be hard. And I was like, oh crap. I just put everyone's expectations up by serving a two year mission. Mr. Prodigal Son who was leading atheist, served a mission, came back honorably. I told amazing stories on my welcome home. And then I came to the point where I was like, wow, people are leaving and it's a hard time. And I just ran some thought, thought experiments. I said, oh, if I leave, how hard would it be? I was like, oh, that would probably be the hardest thing ever. I was a gospel principles teacher. I went back and visited Brazil and I was attending institute in Sao Paulo. I was trying to go to school there and I still hadn't missed a day reading scriptures. It was three months after my mission and I hadn't missed a week of institute. And I would bring all my questions to institute. And not that the Brazilian teacher was any less educated, it's that I feel the knowledge about the deep parts of the church and especially the anti parts in Portuguese and Brazilian just aren't, are just non existent. So I kept a journal of all my questions about the Book of Mormon. And I would say, oh, why is the, why are they multiplying so fast at the beginning? And then he gave me some stupid answer. And I was reading the Book of Abraham one day after not having missed a day of scriptures for years. And I wondered if they had the translations and would you help me with some of the historical facts, John?

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Sure.

Tre Shortland [00:57:56] So I, I was reading and I was like, you know what? I know we don't have translations from the Book of Mormon because they got taken up by the angel, but I didn't know if we had translations for the Book of Abraham. I was like, I wonder when those were. And so I thought they, like, had them in the beginning, and then they got, like, stolen or thrown away. I didn't really know the history behind it and. So am I correct that we have a current translation of the Book of Abraham?

John Dehlin [00:58:27] So I'm fuzzy on the dates and stuff, but my understanding is Joseph bought the papyru from a mummy that this dude brought into Kirtland back in the 1830s. And Joseph claimed to translate that papyru that was stored with the mummy in the Egyptian tomb. But then as the church moved west, somehow the papyra got lost, and it was all believed to have been destroyed in a fire in some museum. But then Magically, in the 1960s, some museum found the remnants of the papyra. It wasn't all the scroll, but it was the main parts of the scroll that tied to Joseph's.

Tre Shortland [00:59:14] So you said magically appeared, but they actually appeared like the text?

John Dehlin [00:59:17] Yeah, the original papyru did reappear minus some stuff that got burned.

Tre Shortland [00:59:22] So it's been two years since I read about it, and I think that's what I read. We had the text, and I flipped my shit after two years. I was like, holy crap, we have it. And, yeah, so I went down the Book of Abraham, and I was like, oh, this is. And so it was just instantly I shut my book, I put it to the side, and I just said, how could you be so stupid?

John Dehlin [00:59:45] Oh, to yourself.

Tre Shortland [00:59:46] Yeah. And I knew it, too. I. I had all the. I had all the way of thinking prepared for me. I just happened to, I guess, maybe stumble on. I'm an ex Mormon. Too late. Before I went, like, I found. The week before, I was like, oh, I'm already in. I'm going to. And so. And then now I read that, and I. And then I went into it. I went to CS Le and I read. I watched your Tom Phillips thing. And that was more just to confirm that. I was like, okay, I'm not, like, crazy. I'm the only one. And then once I took a bigger. I finally delved into my passions of, like, music and philosophy. And I. And the Mormon Church's beliefs are just. They're nice and they're small, but they're insignificant. And that's how it is. And I just have to keep going, I guess. But I did come back. I came back with no money, no nothing, no school. And then I was pretty much forced into doing music. So I just play music with my band now and I try not to take life as seriously as I did on the mission. So.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] Yeah, so you got pretty emotional, as you were telling your disappointment with the mission president, which is beautiful. And I'm just going to tell you what I read behind that. What I read behind that is my parents sacrificed a lot for me to. To be a missionary. I sacrificed a lot to go. A lot of people had given a lot of time and money and effort to this church. And so you felt super disappointed when you realized that it probably wasn't divine, but instead it was just an organization of men who were kind of making it up as they go along and were kind of just political. Is that fair or would you summarize it differently?

Tre Shortland [01:01:54] That seems definitely fair. It wouldn't have had an emotional context attached to it if I could have just changed my opinion on the belief. But I had my heart and soul and my screwed up knee while I was walking and my lower back problems attached to it, you know, and all

John Dehlin [01:02:10] the masturbation guilt and shame. Right.

Tre Shortland [01:02:13] God, I forgot that's in the podcast. It's fine.

Guest [01:02:17] You're good.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] It is. I have to tell you. I know it's embarrassing. I. I was super embarrassed when I talked about masturbation at first. And then I realized how tormenting it is to people. And if we don't talk about it, we're just leaving other people to be tormented.

Tre Shortland [01:02:31] You know, it just feels like you and me here. So I'm just.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] Yeah, it's just you and me, dude. No. No one else is going to hear or watch this. Just you and me. Yeah, but you're saying a lot of sacrifice and pain went into your commitment. It did.

Tre Shortland [01:02:45] So I wouldn't have been so emotional if it weren't that attached to the truthfulness of something was my heart and soul. I love music and I couldn't listen to music. I love music and I couldn't have a guitar. Jeez. I gave up my one thing that I love for the church, and that was asked in the temple. And so I did it. And. And I believed in Ammon and baptizing thousands. I believed in. I believed in, like, the crazy things. And so to see my mission president in like a suit and a tie, I'd be like, just like guiding things. I was like, where's the fucking magic, man? Like, I wanted magic. I wanted crazy things to happen. Because I acted like I acted and was a missionary, as if crazy things would happen. I was raising my hand all over the place. I was dumping oil, giving blessings on everyone. But testosterone was so disappointing. Just the utter, just bureaucracy of it.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] And it made you feel what? Disappointed. Any other feelings, if you just had to summarize.

Tre Shortland [01:03:50] Just disappointed myself, that's it.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] In yourself, but also in the church. What did you feel about the church?

Tre Shortland [01:03:58] I just got unlucky. I was born. I was born to Mormon parents that were baptized by missionaries and I didn't. Once I found the information, I changed, but I just got, I just happened to get wrapped up in it.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] Did you feel angry at the church? Did you feel disappointed?

Tre Shortland [01:04:17] I did feel angry at only really the 12 apostles, which they didn't have. They weren't there, they didn't know. So I just.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] What were you mad about with them?

Tre Shortland [01:04:30] I thought they, I thought they, like I go back and forth whether they have to know or not. Now it doesn't really matter to me whether they know if it's wrong or not. But I was mad that they might have been. But now I have. So I've experienced as a missionary, they can hold completely contradictory beliefs. And now I feel like they're just what I was as a missionary. Contradictory beliefs times a million. And so I guess I'm mad at them at actions that they do, but it's not hard to say. It's almost not their fault, I guess, you know, don't listen to me. No one should listen to me. Disclaimer. Don't listen to my advice.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] But there's a part of you that feels like they must be deceiving people. But it sounds like there's another part of you that feels like, well, some

Tre Shortland [01:05:09] actions very much point to that. Some actions that the church does very much point to, like, oh, we know how this part of the world works, so we are going to do things this way instead of how I would think they would work if a God was in, in play. This is very businessy and I was never into that. But I'm not mad at them because I just think it's a culture thing that they grew up with.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] So in some ways they're all victims.

Tre Shortland [01:05:34] Exactly. And so I guess maybe it's well intentioned, the advice that they give. I mean, you're right. I don't claim to know, you're totally right. That there are instances where I'm like, wow, this guy is really trying to just fuck everyone up. But for the most part I just think it's what I. So I just, I just try to put myself in their shoes. So I felt as a missionary it was most of the times I was trying to do good things. Most of them were kind of shitty, just like running and barging into people's homes and forcing people to be baptized. I thought they were good things. And there was a couple like 2%, 3% just actual bad things that I did, just that I'm not proud of. And that's just because there's nothing. That's what happens. And so I just think they made probably the same way, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Okay, so if we're to kind of ask you. What would you tell an 18 year old young man who's got doubts, who's thinking about going on a mission, what would you tell that young man or what young woman, 19 year old, young woman. They have doubts but they've got their call or they're thinking about putting in their call. Can you give them any advice?

Advice for Young Men Considering a Mission

Tre Shortland [01:06:59] I guess it would be just this call or Skype me. I'll just ask a couple neutral questions about how they feel. And if I can tell really deep down they're like those six elders and me and the mtc, then I would suggest that no. But if they give me this straight, I believe this is good for everyone, I'm going to baptize the world, then yeah, go for it.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Okay, so I'd say if you really believe it, go for it. But if you really are doubting, then what is your perspective?

Tre Shortland [01:07:27] Well, if you really believe it, it's my only. I'm glad that you're logically following your beliefs because then you should go tell everyone, go tell your secret, go tell everyone your what you're happy about. That's no problem. It might be a lot harder than you think. So just maybe listen to my story. If you're getting sent to Brazil, check on a little but otherwise just go with 100% of the information. And I didn't have that and I went through the temple with not 100% of the information. Went through the mission with like 2% of the information and so just get all the information you can. I would ask you some non probing questions about how you feel about it. And just from my experience, most people going to the mission really don't feel

Guest [01:08:12] all that

Tre Shortland [01:08:15] like you do when you're leaving the mission. And that's a scary thing to change or belief something at the same time that you're in a difficult time. So I would no, just don't go. Don't go. Don't go on the mission.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] So you're saying, become educated and what

Tre Shortland [01:08:33] I say, I wouldn't have a problem with you going if you believe it, even if you don't believe it, but just know what it is. Go to school first, you know, two years of college, you don't know anything. You're 18. Go home. So that's what I would say.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] And you're saying, but I would also

Tre Shortland [01:08:52] say I'm just playing music, living out of my camper with my friend, and all that money, so you can listen to me however much you want. But I would say mission is a uniquely cultish experience. Not the church itself, just the mission experience.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] And you're basically saying, make sure you understand what.

Tre Shortland [01:09:19] Make sure you know what it's like

John Dehlin [01:09:20] to be and the history and.

Tre Shortland [01:09:22] Yeah, listen to your brother from Provo that just got home telling you all good things. Listen to me. That's telling you some crazy things. Listen to John Dehlin. And then if you still want to go. It's kind of weird, but go.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] And if you wanted them to read up on some stuff, what would you have them read up?

Tre Shortland [01:09:39] Oh, I told them I just teach them how to think. Like, I just say what I like bringing up with, talk to. So a lot of my friends are still Mormon. No one knows I'm out yet, just my best friends. And so I'm usually talking to Mormons that don't know I'm ex Mormon. And so I usually like to bring up, hey, did you know the world is a better place than it was 10 years ago? There's less rapes, violence, police shootings. No, I didn't know that. And I show them. And then I like it because it's a. It's a non. It won't make them get defensive. You're not talking about the temple or their mission experience or their talking about something light. I like. And if they don't, that's kind of bad as an example. But I like bringing up things that aren't too close to the heart, like that example that the world's better than if it was. That means that the world isn't so scary and that maybe the world isn't getting worse. And most Mormons agree with me. They're like, oh, that's cool. Statistically, there's less killing and rape, and then hopefully one day they connect that maybe Jesus isn't. Jesus is just kind of taking his time.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] Right, Right. You mentioned the CES letter being helpful for You. Is that right?

Tre Shortland [01:10:57] It was helpful information wise? Yes. It wasn't the thing that got me out. I don't think it. I got it by working it through my head with my eyes closed, but connecting dots, but it definitely gave me tons of information.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] So you're saying the logic is the logical thinking that got you out.

Tre Shortland [01:11:18] Yeah. And if you don't. I don't think if you're prone to think a certain way, you're not gonna leave. You're gonna be taught to think a certain way. I just, I don't find it helpful throwing. Making people cry over it. Like, why would I say that's my mom? Like, oh, did you know Joseph Smith fuck fanny out there?

John Dehlin [01:11:39] No. Right, right. Okay. Do you have any advice for the church for how it should deal with these issues? If the church would say, okay, we're sorry you had a bad experience, we'll make some changes. What changes would you ask the church to make?

Tre Shortland [01:11:56] What changes would I ask the church? Make the mission age. Like how old's Dan Peterson? Make it like his age.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] Like in your 60s.

Tre Shortland [01:12:14] Yeah. So you can only go when you're like 30 and you know a bunch about the church and you've read up on it and. Because I don't get why, like who's giving the messages? I send out the. I don't know, like stop sending out these 18 year olds don't know anything. They, I didn't know anything holy. Like as I would say, send them out later or don't send them out at all.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] That's actually why they lowered the mission age, because they were losing people, because they were learning stuff and well then lower the message.

Tre Shortland [01:12:52] I guess that's. They did the correct thing then for them.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] Right. But you're saying, yeah.

Tre Shortland [01:12:55] Oh, so for help other missionaries. It's a hard one because I think it's a. All the things you learn on your mission are purely accidental, purely circumstance. And some people don't learn anything at all. And so for to help the people, I guess would say don't send them on a mission. It's a weird question to ask. Don't send them on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] You're saying it's just too young for you to make such big decisions.

Guest [01:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] And

Tre Shortland [01:13:28] okay, so yes, I do have a. I do have good advice. If someone's on their mission, they don't want to be there at any point, take it home.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] Say, say it again, you broke up.

Tre Shortland [01:13:43] If someone's on a mission and for at any point they want to go home, they should go Home. And the church should buy the plane ticket. Thank you, Elder Shortland, for your service for a year and a half. I know it's been hot. I'll buy a plane ticket home.

John Dehlin [01:14:01] Yeah, and that's something. The church, they have a rule that if you end your mission early, you have to pay your own plane ticket home.

Tre Shortland [01:14:08] You mean when I've been paying $400 to eat some other people's rice and beans?

John Dehlin [01:14:14] Yeah. No, but I mean, that's the church's policy. You. You pay if you go home early.

Tre Shortland [01:14:19] Yeah, well, that's the extent of my advice.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Okay. All right, that's good. And any. Any. Any advice to mission presidents on what they could do better?

Tre Shortland [01:14:34] Yeah, I have, like, actual technical things that I would just help them on their mission thing. So they. They would teach that no area is bad. It's your faithfulness. And having taken statistics before college, I did that. I separated by area and did the divisions by each area. Baptisms per month. And every single area had a consistent number of baptisms. No matter what the elder couple was. There was little influxes. But over the course of, like, five years, I took the area book and I mapped it all out. And I was like, that's just not a true statement. You know? And so I would say there are some technical things that door knocking, stupid. Which I did up my whole mission. This is advice to mission presence. But treat your. Just don't treat them how you treated us. Treated me.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] How about the masturbation thing? How would you tell them to handle that?

Tre Shortland [01:15:36] Look, when was the last time you masturbated?

John Dehlin [01:15:40] Right?

Tre Shortland [01:15:40] I was just asking back, who are they? I'll just ask them back, when was the last time you masturbated? And then if they tell me, I'll tell them. Even if it was 20 years ago, just, oh, it was 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [01:15:53] Oh, cool.

Tre Shortland [01:15:53] Mine was yesterday. So I guess, yeah. If you're a missionary and your president asks you if you masturbated, ask him back. And willing to be a friend and share that with you. Go ahead, if you feel comfortable. You're both over 18, but it sounds

John Dehlin [01:16:09] like you just kind of don't want the mission president asking that question about that.

Tre Shortland [01:16:14] Jesus. Oh, my goodness. It's so inappropriate.

Guest [01:16:20] Jeez.

Tre Shortland [01:16:24] I'm probably still living through so many problems I don't even know that are lasting. It's been two years, and I've been out by myself kind of closet for the last year and a half. And so I know there's like, sex with just a regular Girl outside of church. That's not like I got to figure out, like. And that whole being pro when I'm 21, you know.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] Wait, you. You broke up? Say it one more time. Sorry.

Tre Shortland [01:16:52] Being probed about masturbation at 21 is just. I'm sure I had that, you know, And I joke about it now, I really do, because I try to have a light heart about it, but at the time it was very. I was scared. I had the fear of God in me.

Regrets, Reflections, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:17:12] Do you regret serving your mission?

Tre Shortland [01:17:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:17] You wish you hadn't have gone?

Tre Shortland [01:17:20] I wish I'd have gone to Brazil, but I didn't get to do anything there. But I don't regret the lessons I learned. So I don't want to make it sound like I didn't learn great lessons. I learned amazing lessons. I learned lessons about abject poverty that when I got back to America, I couldn't. I couldn't. I didn't understand the American way of life again. I came back after two years technology and I. I still have a hard time grasping the American consumerism way of life. So I did learn great things, but I regret going on a mission.

Guest [01:17:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Because. Because you could have learned those things in other ways.

Tre Shortland [01:17:57] Yeah. Just go, go to Brazil, buy. Buy a plane ticket, go live with somebody. You'll see it.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] And you won't have spent two years tormenting yourself.

Tre Shortland [01:18:05] You can maybe meditate. So that time you would have spent for like scripture study from like 8 to 10 or 11, just like sit and like meditate or something. Something.

Guest [01:18:13] Right.

Tre Shortland [01:18:14] But I regret it.

John Dehlin [01:18:15] Yeah. All right, well, you've been super candid and thoughtful and I've loved this interview. Why don't you close with your sort of testimony, whatever that is, what you believe now. Why don't you share with listeners kind of where your values or beliefs are today?

Tre Shortland [01:18:38] Yeah, sure. No, just. Thank you, John. I just. I actually my accuse is almost personally related to you, so this whole interview is pretty much just selfish. I just wanted to chat for you and I took it as a free therapy session. So thank you very much. I would say my beliefs now are that our senses cloud us a lot. And it's very hard to tell what's real and it's very hard to tell what's right, what's wrong. Our morality is fucked up. Things we feel good about sometimes are bad. Some things we feel bad about are sometimes kind of good. And from a lesson from my non Mormon Uncle Lloyd that fed me a book of fallacies when I was 8, that was it. So it's just a way of thinking and way of seeing the world. I see it my way and I don't understand other people's way, but that's fine. And with the caveat that my beliefs don't matter that much. Why do I care? I don't like why do I care what I believe on politics when someone else wrote better books on it. I'll just go read those books. I just read a book last week, Paul Bloom, who's a psychologist from Yale, and why we like things so we can still learn things. But I don't like my. The caveat is my beliefs don't matter. Basically, I just learned shit.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] Are you looking forward to life? Are you sad about what you've lost? Are you worried about being happy in the future?

Tre Shortland [01:20:09] I went through a very hard time the year after I left the church. I did it basically alone. And I tried to get a job. I had no experience, I had no money. And so I got a job at In N Out. You like that place? In N Out Love?

John Dehlin [01:20:26] In N Out, Yeah.

Tre Shortland [01:20:28] So I was there. And on my mission, I had to shave every day. But I got my. When I was 19, I had my mom's Filipino side, so I didn't grow much hair. But my companions still made me shave every day. And I would bleed in the mirror as I did it, just to follow my companion's orders. And so when I went to In N Out, I showed up one day, you're supposed to shave every day. And I went one day without shaving. And I came in, it was a slight stubble. And a new manager was in and he handed me a razor. He was like, you need to go to the bathroom and shave your face. I said, what? Like, I don't grow. It's been a long time coming, this beauty. But I don't grow facial hair easily. There was nothing there. And he's like, no, you have to go home and shave. So I was in the bathroom in my silly In N Out hat, shaving with cold water in a public restroom while my face bled. And I saw and I quit. And I said, no one else will have control of my mind and no one else will ever tell me what to do again, unless it's my mom. And I'll respect people, I'll be kind to people. But the second anyone tries to promise me things, promise me money and. And trade for my work, promise me salvation and trade for my. The work again, I won't take it. So I quit. In and out. And I couldn't hold. I Couldn't hold a regular job because I didn't like the concept of someone pay me a paycheck and I'm doing their things. And so it fucked me up. Like, I can't. No one ever will tell me what to think or how to think. And so I don't care what other people do.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] It's just

Tre Shortland [01:22:25] not happening in my life ever. And I'm trying to be true myself. And I don't hide my. You don't gotta hide your sins anymore. You can wear your heart on your sleeve and you can just be yourself. Like, just be yourself. You don't have to hide anything. Everyone's a little fucked up. It's fine. I don't care if you had gay sex on a mission. You're fine. You're fine. And I'm mostly just telling this to myself I haven't really talked about deeply in a really long time. So thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] Thank you, brother.

Tre Shortland [01:23:11] And so I'm just here playing music, listening to my band. If you hate it, let me know.

John Dehlin [01:23:15] Tell us. Tell us how we can buy your. Buy your songs. Buy your music.

Tre Shortland [01:23:19] So this is very recent, so I just. I had this whole epiphany. Lost God when I made a band. And we just put out our first song. So we only got one song out, but we recorded a whole album

Guest [01:23:32] with

Tre Shortland [01:23:32] me and my childhood friends or reggae rock. And it's on all the social media. Seaview. One word. S E A V I E W. And then our websites, seaviewmusic.com.

John Dehlin [01:23:44] seaviewmusic.com. That's s e a v I e w music dot com. Yeah.

Tre Shortland [01:23:50] And you'll find all our stuff there. And we'll put out our album in like a month or two.

John Dehlin [01:23:54] And your music is the bumpers for this episode.

Tre Shortland [01:23:57] Oh, cool. I didn't. I didn't know that. Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] All right, Trey. Well, it's been a beautiful interview. Your insight is really profound, and people are going to love this. So thank you for sharing your story and for being vulnerable because it's going to help people.

Tre Shortland [01:24:13] Throw up the Shaka John.

John Dehlin [01:24:14] Say it again.

Tre Shortland [01:24:15] Throw up the Shaka John. Yeah. All right.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] I got the shocker going.

Tre Shortland [01:24:18] Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:24:20] All right. Love you, brother.

Tre Shortland [01:24:22] Yeah, Bye.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] Good luck. All right.

Guest [01:24:43] Slumber, slumber sleep that I was under Woking up and shaken up by the thunder Completely naked and we're going under the same so I remember that I've got friends in just the right places7 Good night. These are the good times that I do not Times never far from me Waste my time time with the right things I don't know. I want to fly right down the fast lane with my hands up in the air Because I remember who was really there City to city now I'm going my fastest hit the speedy louder Keep on still while time passes Put my shades on cuz I fly closer to the sun Got missed calls from mama I'm sleeping Wax from the wind on my back starts dripping what's all this for When I got naked When I'm done I've got friends just the right places Sitting falling an to the pain Good night too complacency wasting away. These are the good times that I do not Time never far from there Waste my time with the rock Things I don't know

Tre Shortland [01:26:40] Slipping through my fingers

Guest [01:26:41] and stooping down to the floor I want to fly right down the fast lane with my hands up in the air. Back and forth like a rocking chair Favorite songs pull us out of despair Memorize like the Lord's pray while I fall asleep. Through my fingers and then slipping down to the floor I want to fly right down the fast lane with my hands up in the air I don't think. Back and forth like a rocking chair Favorite song.

Tre Shortland [01:28:21] Sam.

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