Introducing Laci Green and the Interview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1203

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sa. Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 28, 2019. I'm fresh off a flight home from New York City, and I am so incredibly excited to interview someone who I've wanted to interview for years.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] So many years that I don't know. I don't even know if she knows that I've wanted to interview her for years. But the person that we're interviewing today is Laci Green, and many of you will know who that is. Lacy is known for lots of things. She, as far as I'm concerned, is one of the really kind of early, kind of world famous, kind of reputable, penetrating in a positive way, YouTubers. And her YouTube work focused mostly on sex positivity and sex education.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] And, you know, I just checked today she still has 1.4 million YouTube subscribers. And she hasn't been, you know, regularly publishing YouTube videos for, I believe, years. And we'll talk about all that. But she is a, you know, world famous YouTuber, sex educator. She's an author.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] She published a book recently called let's see, last year called Sex Learning, Loving and Enjoying youg Body. And recently she launched a podcast. So Laci Green, Lookout World. Laci Green is entering the podcast world community with a podcast called Indirect Message, which is super cool. I've already listened to several episodes. I think she has four or five out. And it explores how the Internet is changing society and it is touching on really super important stuff. So that is who we're interviewing today. And I couldn't be more excited.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] Really quickly, just for those, I'll just do a 20 second blurb. For those of you who don't know, we are doing an amazing conference on November 17th called Thrive. It's a conference, we've got over a thousand people who have already registered. It's a conference dedicated to healing and growth after Mormonism and finding community. We're bringing Wayne Sermon from Imagine Dragons, Amber Skorrad from the book Leaving the Witness. And we're gonna have over a thousand people there and probably a dozen speakers and musicians. And we're just gonna do a day celebrating healing, growth and community for post Mormons. And something I didn't mention about Lacey, you're probably like, why are you interviewing Lacey other than the fact that she's awesome and cool and thoughtful?

John Dehlin [00:03:29] She also was raised Mormon. Her mom, I believe, is or was Mormon. And she was raised Mormon for a time before she left the church. So that's another reason why she absolutely fits on Mormon Stories podcast really quickly. For that Thrive event, go to ThriveBeyond Mormonism if you want to register. We'd love to see you there. November 17th. And without any further ado, Laci Green coming to us live, live streamed from Los Angeles. It's such a thrill to have you on Mormon Stories podcast.

Laci Green [00:04:06] Aw, thanks for having me, John. It's really awesome to be here. I have also been aware of your podcast for a very long time, and I think it's really cool what you guys are doing.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] Well, thank you. Well, I can't wait to talk. All right, so where do we begin? Laci Green. So tell me if there's anything from the introduction, just so people can get a good, broad overall sketch of you before we dive in. Is there anything that I missed?

Laci Green [00:04:34] I'd say that was pretty accurate.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Okay. Pretty accurate is. It's good for my book. All right, so let's begin going way, way back, and let's hear just a little bit about kind of where you begin. I read in a place or two that your mom was Mormon and your dad is from Iran, if I'm not mistaken.

Family Background and Mixed Heritage

Laci Green [00:05:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] So let's go. Let's go back to the heritages of both your parents, and let's learn how they got together, if you want to start there.

Laci Green [00:05:09] Sure, yeah. You know, it's weird. My parents have actually been, like, kind of mysterious about all this stuff, so I've had to piece together their stories through a lot of conversations. But my understanding is that, you know, my mom was raised Mormon. She grew up in Oregon in a really small town, and her whole family's Mormon. They're all very devout still.

Laci Green [00:05:35] My mom's not Mormon anymore, actually. She has left in recent years. But my dad is still very devout, and he's in the bishopric in his ward. And, yeah, he came from Iran when He was about 16, and I think was kind of like, lonely, vulnerable, and alienated. And his parents weren't here. He was put up with a friend of his parents in California, kind of outside San Francisco, and he left and drove east. This is my. The pieces part. My understanding is he just left when he turned 18 and drove east and then found a Mormon community in Colorado while he was driving and kind of got swept up in it there.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Do you know if he fled kind of the Iran revolution of the late 70s of 79 or whatever that was? Would he have come over here in the early or mid-80s then?

Laci Green [00:06:36] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] I remember growing up in Houston. There was literally a song. You probably know about this song. That they played. It was a parody of the Beach Boys song Barbara Ann, but the song was called Bomb Iran. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, because I actually have met many Iranians or Persians, and I've just had very, very positive interactions with everyone I've ever met from Iran. But the song literally went, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran, you know, and it was awful. Like. But that was kind of the late 70s, early 80s, with the Ayatollah Tola and all the oil wars and Jimmy Carter and Reagan and the Cold War. I wonder if you've ever been able to talk to your dad about what that was like to come to America in the 80s in that kind of environment.

Laci Green [00:07:30] Yeah, I've talked to him about it a little bit. He's very closed off about it, but I think it kind of traumatized him. And he's. Yeah, I think he feels some resentment that he didn't have his parents with him when he was growing up. And he needed a community. You know, he really needed, like, a place to belong and be nurtured and has had to be kind of the caretaker most of his life, of himself and of other people. So, yeah, I wish he'd share more with me. He has no reason to be secretive about that. It's always struck me as very strange, but he is. He just doesn't like talking about it.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] So he left his family behind in Iran. Did they. Did they. You know, were they able to. Did they survive? And did he stay in touch with them, do you know?

Laci Green [00:08:19] Yeah, yeah. They eventually came to the States. He had been here alone for, I want to say, 10 years, and then they came.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Okay.

Laci Green [00:08:30] Yeah. And now they live.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] Your grandparents are aunts and uncles?

Laci Green [00:08:35] Yeah, my grandparents. And then I have one. He has one brother who lived in France for a while and then came to the States as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] Okay, so your dad converted to Mormonism, like, shortly after arriving here, is that right?

Laci Green [00:08:48] Well, I don't think it was immediately after. I think he graduated high school and then. Yeah, went driving, landed in Grand Junction and met a girl, and she was part of why he converted.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Got it.

Laci Green [00:09:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] There's often a lady involved in people's conversions to more money.

Laci Green [00:09:13] Yes. Well, it makes sense, the things we do for love.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] Yeah. Things you do for love. Okay, so at some point, your dad met your mom. Do you know what town your mom was raised in? Oh, Oregon. Oregon.

Growing Up Mormon in a Small Town

Laci Green [00:09:25] So, yeah, small town in Oregon.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Okay. Okay. So when did you come in the picture? After they got married.

Laci Green [00:09:37] It Wasn't after they got married.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] Oh, yeah.

Laci Green [00:09:40] And I think that intrigue.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Intrigue.

Laci Green [00:09:44] I think that has caused them a lot of pain that I was a love child and my mom had me while she was going to do byu. At the time, it was Rick's college, I think.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] Byu, Idaho.

Laci Green [00:10:00] Yes. And yeah, she got her degree and there it was causing all the chaos, as usual.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Okay, so they weren't married when you were born?

Laci Green [00:10:17] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Wow. I haven't heard a lot about that at the BYU's, but that's probably because it's covered up or people are kicked out or people are shipped off.

Laci Green [00:10:27] It's super taboo. It's super duper taboo and shamed. And I. I feel really awful that they had to go through that. I mean, it's hard enough having, like, being in the position they were in, being young, figuring things out, and now they've got to, like, there's all this stigma about getting pregnant accidentally. You're not allowed to use birth control. You know, it's just like a big toxic stew. And I really feel for my parents and the things that they have not talked to me extensively about, but the things I know that they went through to give me the life that I have, you know, and to make sure that they had everything in place to have a family. They did have my little sister shortly after me, so I know they wanted to have a family Anyway, so what

John Dehlin [00:11:10] year were you born?

Laci Green [00:11:12] 89.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Let's see. In 89, I was on my mission in Guatemala. So I'm just trying to. I'm trying to get you connected in my timeline so that then I can know where to go. Okay, so born in 89. Did. So did eventually your parents got married, I'm assuming.

Laci Green [00:11:28] Yes, they did. They got married right after I was born.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] Okay. And eventually temple married, I'm assuming, after they waited the required amount.

Laci Green [00:11:37] They waited. Yeah, they did the temple marriage, and then we got sealed also. I think that might have been the last time I was at the temple.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] When you were sealed to your parents. Okay. Okay. So you were raised primarily then in. Oh, let's see, you were born in Utah, it said in the profile I read, but it said you, you did Oregon and then California, Is that right?

Laci Green [00:12:06] Yes, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] So what do you remember about your childhood and, you know, your family, but also your. Your Mormon childhood and anything else that you think is interesting or important?

Laci Green [00:12:16] Yeah, well, as a kid, you know, I had a really positive experience as a kid in the church, my neighborhood. Most of the people that lived in the neighborhood were Mormon. There were a few that weren't usually people who had immigrated here. And yeah, it was really positive. I felt very supported and very safe in the church as a kid. And I think it was a good supportive environment for my parents where things kind of went a little bit off the rails. Was around the puberty age when the protocols start to shift and, you know, I started feeling increasingly uncomfortable in my body and in my role that I was being prescribed as a woman in the church. And as soon as they started talking to me about, like having babies and being a wife, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's just calm down here one second.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Let me back up just for a second. So do you remember primary? Do you remember like going to church regularly and all that stuff?

Laci Green [00:13:27] Yeah, I went to girls camp every year. I was very involved in young women's. I helped organize our, you know, young women's nights every Wednesday. And I was very involved in all.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] You would have been in the presidencies, like Beehive or Laurel or Maya made presidencies kind of thing.

Laci Green [00:13:44] I don't remember if I was in the. Maybe I was. I vaguely recall being a secretary.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laci Green [00:13:51] I can't remember.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] That counts.

Laci Green [00:13:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] Okay. You liked girls camp and did you go to seminary?

Laci Green [00:13:59] I did not go to seminary.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] Okay.

Laci Green [00:14:01] I put my foot down at getting up at 6am okay.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] Did your parents. Were they kind of trying to be the orthodox Mormons? Was it more of an unorthodox.

Laci Green [00:14:10] They were trying to.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] They were family.

Laci Green [00:14:13] Yeah. I just don't. I don't think that's who they are as people. And it certainly wasn't who I was and my siblings are. So that posed some challenges. You know, they didn't drink coffee. They still don't drink alcohol, which is probably a healthy thing, honestly. But it, you know, it does. The alcohol thing, I think, has cause a little friction because it makes it harder for them to socialize. You know, a lot of socializing, there's alcohol around. It's not like you have to drink it. But I think that makes them uncomfortable. And so it kind of, I think, has isolated them from non Mormon communities and friendships because the ways that people socialize are forbidden. Literally going to get coffee or grabbing a drink after work, like that's kind of, you know, the way the way things go. So, yeah, they don't do that anymore, of course, my mom. But they did at the time.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] Okay, so you were, you. You remember kind of fond memories of. Of growing up Mormon until kind of the gender expectations started being communicated then.

Laci Green [00:15:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] And you had how many siblings by this point?

Laci Green [00:15:34] I have two siblings.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] You have two siblings?

Laci Green [00:15:37] I had both of them at that point, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] Okay, so how did that. Like, normally, teenage kids don't kind of put their foot down, especially along social justice or moral grounds, and kind of leave the church. It's either they rebel or they stand it and stay quiet until they leave the nest. How did it work for you?

Laci Green [00:16:02] Well, I have a very loud mouse, apparently, so it was a lot of arguing and fighting, and I'm not going to church. You can't make me do this. I don't agree with this. I don't believe in God. You know, just, like, having all these really devastating fights, mostly with my dad. My mom kind of stayed out of it, which makes more sense now because I kind of see that she never really fully bought into it. Yeah, it was very tumultuous, and I think it caused a lot of unnecessary friction in my relationship with my parents at the time. I mean, I think, you know, teenagers are a pain in the ass either way. Sorry, can I say ass?

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Yes, you can.

Laci Green [00:16:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Absolutely. We're ass positive. We're ass positive.

Laci Green [00:16:53] Thank you. Good, good. I'm glad we're on the same page about that. Yeah. So, you know, teenagers are a pain in the ass, and they're gonna fight and rebel anyway. But I think that adding this sort of existential element really stressed my parents out because they were worried about my fate, you know, that I was gonna go to hell and, you know, gonna be tempted by sin and all this stuff.

Childhood Interests, Music, and School

John Dehlin [00:17:20] So were you. What type of. What were your interests as a kid and as a teen? Did you do music? Did you do. I saw you did drama. And were you a reader? Talk about your kind of intellectual and creative life.

Laci Green [00:17:33] Yeah, I was a really creative and brainy little nerd. I skipped a few grades in grade

John Dehlin [00:17:39] school, and that's a lot. One is a lot.

Laci Green [00:17:43] Yeah, a few.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] What does that mean?

Laci Green [00:17:45] Well, I ultimately skipped two or three grades. It's weird because I switched and moved and then, like, the ages were different, but, yeah, I skipped sixth grade, and then I skipped a couple grades in high school. But, yeah, I really liked.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] Were you, like, 12 when you graduated from high school?

Laci Green [00:18:04] No, I was 15 when I graduated from high school.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] I was kidding. But, yeah.

Laci Green [00:18:10] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] So were you reading? What? Like, were you reading, like, intense books? Were you like.

Laci Green [00:18:19] I like to read, and I loved. Loved to read them. The Internet distracts me a lot now, but Yeah, I read a lot. And my parents really encouraged that. We would go to the library every single week for years, and my dad would let me check out just stacks of books. Like, you know, it's kind of funny, I feel like he, you know, let me learn too much or something. I don't know. He really encouraged my intellectual growth. Both my parents did. And they really, like, provided an intellectually stimulating environment. You know, I was in drama classes from the time I was a kid. They took me to museums all the time, the libraries, all kinds of writing and robot and tech camps at school. They were really.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] That sounds like a cool upbringing, honestly.

Laci Green [00:19:06] Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. It was amazing.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And I don't want to insult my listenership, but because of the way the Middle Eastern countries are portrayed in the media in 2019, and I don't think a lot of people care about history these days, but Iran has this super rich cultural and intellectual heritage stemming all the way back to the mid 20th century. Along with Iraq. Iran had some incredible things. I mean, you go back to the 15th century, some great intellectual traditions have come out of the Middle East. And so somebody raised in Iran in the 1970s was probably pretty sophisticated. I'm guessing your dad was pretty educated and sophisticated and I'm sure your mom was too.

Laci Green [00:20:00] Yeah, yeah, he was. And my grandparents especially, because they had lived their, you know, their whole lives very interested in academic pursuits. My grandpa was a journalist, and my grandma started her own business, which was, you know, kind of interesting. She ran the business herself, considering that that was a very long time ago. Like female business owners in Iran, you know, it's so interesting and I definitely see myself in them. But yeah, I think that that definitely influenced how my dad feels about it. My mom also studied child development, so she was coming in with a backpack full of tools and resources to help kids achieve and be their best. And, you know, if I'm her experiment, I think, you know, she did a good job.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Kicked ass.

Laci Green [00:20:48] He did kick ass.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] To follow on the ass theme. She kicked ass. They both kicked ass. What was your dad. What were your parents professions when you were growing up?

Laci Green [00:20:55] I'm just curious when I was a kid. Well, my mom's always been a music director, and I think that was something she got from the church. You know, was able to indulge in her love of music and do a lot of musical pursuits in the church. My dad kind of hopped between jobs. He eventually became a finance guy in various capacities. But, you know, he loves math. Very, like, systematic in his thinking, which is why? The Mormon stuff confuses me sometimes, but

John Dehlin [00:21:27] I can help you with that later.

Laci Green [00:21:28] Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, I think he makes some compromises, you know?

John Dehlin [00:21:34] So are you a singer?

Laci Green [00:21:37] Well, isn't everyone a singer?

John Dehlin [00:21:39] Well, not of the same grade. Not of the same caliber.

Laci Green [00:21:44] Well, yeah, my mom did train me to sing, and she teaches people to sing and she.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] I bet you're a good singer.

Laci Green [00:21:53] You know, I haven't practiced in a long time. I can definitely, like, harmonize and hold the tune and keep a basic vocal quality, but I'm not, like, a practice singer.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Who are your favorite musical talents or performers when you're in high school?

Laci Green [00:22:10] Oh, gosh. In high school?

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Yeah.

Laci Green [00:22:13] You're really taking me down memory lane today. In high school, I listened to a lot of that, like, whiny punk, emo stuff like AFI. Do you know AFI?

John Dehlin [00:22:28] No. No idea.

Laci Green [00:22:30] All right, well, AFI and Blink 182 and Green Day, those might have come a little later. It's all blurred together. But.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Okay, so you would have. You would have graduated. So just to get a sense for the time we're in, you would have graduated high school around what year it was?

Laci Green [00:22:52] 2006.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] 2006. Okay. Mormon story started in 2005. Okay.

Laci Green [00:22:58] So I didn't realize you've been going so long.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] 14. 14 years, yeah.

Laci Green [00:23:04] Good to meet you.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Thank you. Okay, so did you stop going to church while you were still home as, like, a 14 or 15 year old?

Laci Green [00:23:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] You just stopped?

Laci Green [00:23:14] Just stopped.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] And that caused. And that was like, what, for your parents?

Laci Green [00:23:18] Chaos? Total craziness. Yeah, all those outbursts. We would duke it out and I would, like, run away. You know, there was a couple nights that I definitely slept on the street because I didn't want to go home. Eventually, I started asking friends to sleep at their house, and they were very kind and took me in. So I would crash on people's sofas when we would fight. I wish my parents had. My dad had not handled it like that. I think that was not cool. He would tell me to get out sometimes, too, you know, like, he didn't want me there and I didn't have anywhere to go. So, fortunately, a lot of my friends at the time were also having similar conflicts with their parents in this very religious suburb. And so there was a little bit of solidarity and support there in my peer group.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] Portland. Portland suburb?

Laci Green [00:24:26] No, this was in Sacramento.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Sacramento, yeah, Portland.

Laci Green [00:24:29] I was a kid and then we moved to Sacramento.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] I love Sacramento.

Laci Green [00:24:34] It's a place.

Mormon Upbringing and Attitudes Toward Sexuality

John Dehlin [00:24:39] Okay, so because you're, you know, a lot of your activism and education and programming media stuff has been around 6. Sex, positivity. How did the Mormon standards of like, no drinking, no drugs, no sex, how did those land on you as a teen? And what do you want to share about those experiences?

Laci Green [00:25:02] As my experiences with drinking, drugs and sex?

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Well, it's not in any period interest, but I mean, like, that must have been a part of your parents worry, right?

Laci Green [00:25:12] Oh, sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] And you would have been programmed that all that stuff's evil and wicked and if you weren't going to church normally, that means why obey the standards? So I'm wondering if you had to navigate, like, losing your faith or feeling like you were violating God's will or having to reprogram yourself with all that religious upbringing.

Laci Green [00:25:33] Right, yeah, for sure. I think that happened before the drinking and drugs and sex, Because I left the church when I was about 14, 13. 14 was the age. And I definitely felt a lot of guilt and worry that I was making some sort, you know, horrible decision and that I was doing something wrong. But ultimately I listened to my gut and my brain, which were telling me that, you know, this isn't right, this doesn't add up. This isn't.

Laci Green [00:26:05] The path that I'm gonna go down in five years is not gonna be one that makes me happy. And it's one that I think is oppressive and harmful to people, and I don't want to be a part of that. So I had this sort of like, moral reasoning that I think made it a little bit easier.

Laci Green [00:26:26] When YouTube came about, I started posting about it on YouTube. That was actually how I got started on YouTube, was posting about leaving Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] What year?

Laci Green [00:26:36] Like 2006, 2007.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] Would those videos still be up on your channel?

Laci Green [00:26:41] You know, I've taken a lot of them down and we can talk about this at some point, but basically I have people scrub my entire Internet record for anything they can to paint me as an evil, hateful person. And so a lot of the feelings that I expressed as a teenager when I was 17 years old have been used against me.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] Oh, I saw that. So like the political correctness kind of stuff. Not even just that in a pejorative way, but just.

Laci Green [00:27:08] Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, a lot of that stuff. And like, trying to, you know, paint me as some kind of bigot for the things that I experienced and felt, which I would argue were oppressive. That was oppressive. And, you know, I was feeling the weight of sexism and pressure to be feminine in a certain way and pressure to not pursue my intellectual interests. But, yeah, it's definitely. There are bad actors out there who have tried to use it against me. And so at one point, I just took it all down. I may put it back up, because you know what? Fuck those people. And I think it's kind of like it's a time capsule. I don't know. We shouldn't have to censor who we were in the past because idiots now get mad at everything, you know?

John Dehlin [00:27:58] Well, I mean, that's so intense, that whole conversation. I mean, I'm thinking of, like, who is the African American comedian that was gonna host the Oscars, but they said 10 years ago about LGBT.

Laci Green [00:28:13] Was it Kevin?

John Dehlin [00:28:14] Kevin Hart? Yeah. Kevin Hart. Yeah. I mean, that's. It's just. We'll get into all that stuff. Let me just ask you. I'm guessing part of your dad's and maybe your mom's freaking out about you leaving Mormonism was they didn't want you to repeat the mistakes that they had made. I mean, that is an obvious thing that jumps right out.

Laci Green [00:28:33] Sure, yeah, that may be true. I haven't really thought about that as much. They definitely didn't want me having sex, and I had to. When I had my first real relationship and I felt ready, I definitely waited until I was ready. I didn't rush into anything or feel pressured. I would say I had a very ideal circumstance. And the first time I became sexually active with my partner and I felt tremendously guilty and horrible about it, and I had to keep it a secret. So there was all that. They did not want us. They made sure we weren't alone together, you know, didn't want us, like, sitting too close to each other on a sofa, things like that.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] Yeah, I was a dad like that for way too many years, and I'm grateful that I've stopped being a dad like that.

Laci Green [00:29:20] Well, I'm grateful, too, because you gotta let him grow up and just be a guiding light in that time.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Yeah, it creates so much negative energy in the relationship, but also, you just teach your kids to lie and hide stuff. It's the worst. Worst approach.

Laci Green [00:29:37] It is. Yeah. It's really destructive.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] Did you. Did you have a feminist awakening? Would you have identified as a feminist when you're, like, 14 or 15 or. Did you even know what that was at the time?

Laci Green [00:29:46] Yeah, I've always identified as a feminist since I, like, became a conscious semi young adult.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] Well, that's okay, but I'm just gonna say, like, I don't. I'm not into just, like, flattering my guests, but I'll do it. If I feel moved for a kid raised Mormon to have their own intellectual awakening, their own feminist awakening in the 2000s, early 2000s, and to be able to have the wisdom and the presence to sort of forecast their unhappiness and take that awful stand with your parents where you're actually following truth.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] You're actually fighting for your own happiness and health and the people that should be. And I'm not bagging on your parents because I've been a parent, I've screwed up and I have a lot of sympathy for parents. I believe everybody's doing their best. But for you to be standing up for your own health and well being against the people who are supposed to, of all people on the earth, be the ones fighting for your health and well being, that is a monumental accomplishment in my view. And it's very rare for the. You know, I've got over 1200 hours of interviewing Mormons now. What you did is very rare.

Laci Green [00:31:12] Really? That I'm flattered. And I'm also a little bit shocked. More people. Yeah. You know, it's hard. And I would attribute this to just kind of my lack of reverence as a person. I don't know if that's a good thing or not, but thank you. I really appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] Did you have any early feminist influences? I just have to ask that because I love it.

Laci Green [00:31:39] Oh, early feminist influences, probably. Do I know who those people are?

John Dehlin [00:31:47] No, because feminism was still a bad. I mean, some may say it's still a bad word now.

Laci Green [00:31:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] But, but, but 20 years ago, it certainly was a bad word. Right. Still.

Laci Green [00:31:56] Well, I knew that feminism was like, it was a much, much more simple understanding of feminism than I have now. Right. I was just like, women who want to do what they want and like, aren't gonna just do what they're told, you know, nasty women, I guess, like of the 90s and early 2000s. But that was my idea of feminism. Like, at the time I was like, I'm gonna be a doctor. And like, no church or person is gonna tell me I need to be a stay at home mom or something. So it was a very simplistic view, but that was the word that I knew to describe how I felt was I'm a feminist. And I've used that in varying capacities and meanings since then.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] And so the messages you got from the Mormon Church were that your job was to be a mommy and have babies and get married. Right.

Laci Green [00:32:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] And you didn't feel like the church was nurturing your desires to be a Professional is that?

Laci Green [00:32:58] Not only that, but I love the outdoors. And, you know, I was so upset that the young women's groups didn't get to go hiking and didn't get to rough it out. You know, we went to girls camp and we had cabins, and that was cool, but I was like, dude, I want to do these, like, crazy hikes they're taking up the mountain and, like, sleeping outside on tarps and, you know, learning how to tie knots and stuff that I felt would be really cool.

Laci Green [00:33:27] And I was told, oh, well, girls don't do that stuff. So. And that was really upsetting to me. And I'm very outdoorsy now. I. I loved the outdoors more than anything. And, you know, that was maybe the first real tick of, like, what that I had was the fact that our activities were sewing and cooking and babysitting and crafting versus being outside and learning how to navigate your environment and really fend for yourself, like, to feel powerful in that way, you know?

John Dehlin [00:34:02] Wow, that's so cool. So you had a strong sense of kind of social justice and a real sensitivity towards gender equality and other types of equality from a very young age.

Laci Green [00:34:16] Yeah, well, at least as a girl, you know, I understood, oh, this isn't fair to girls. Yeah, but social justice is way more than that.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's one. One aspect. Really quickly, just a shout out to our listeners who are joining us live. We've got 90 people. That's a lot for midday. Jason says, OMG, I love Lacy. Holly says, love you, Lacey. I've been following your YouTube channel for about three years now. I'm so excited about this interview. Lots of Mormon stories. Listeners love you. Rick says, Lacey was a recommendation I made a few years ago, but had no way of contacting her. So good to see her here now. She is so popular. Her sex talk is amazing.

Laci Green [00:34:59] Thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] That's really sweet. Amy says, I love her. Lots of Mormon stories. Love coming at you, Lacey Green.

Laci Green [00:35:07] I appreciate that. Thank you so much. All the love going back as well.

Leaving the Church and Finding Atheism

John Dehlin [00:35:12] Okay, so you finished high school by age 15, is that right? And I know you ended up at Cal Berkeley, so what was your path to Cal Berkeley?

Laci Green [00:35:25] Yeah, I went to community college for a while when I was in Sacramento. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Okay.

Laci Green [00:35:30] And I. Yeah, I got really involved in gender equality stuff there and met some really awesome mentors in community college who I'm still really close with today. My professors and the staff at the school were tremendously supportive in exploring my sexual identity and figuring out who I am and advocating for these causes. So that was a wonderful part of my life. And then I transferred to Berkeley and finished that degree.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] How many years into your education did you switch to Berkeley?

Laci Green [00:36:10] I had been going, I think I did like a five year, like super senior college situation. Yeah. So I went to community college for about three years and then I went to Berkeley for the last two.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Okay. And you said you started youtubing at what age?

Laci Green [00:36:23] I was 17.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] So you would have been still in the junior college when you started YouTubing?

Laci Green [00:36:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] So when you. Do you remember when you first discovered YouTube and kind of what it meant to you before you became a YouTuber yourself?

Laci Green [00:36:38] Yeah, I was chatting on MSN messenger with an online friend who I never did meet in person, and he was like, dude, did you hear about YouTube? You should make YouTube videos. You like talking about stuff. Look at all these people making atheist videos or whatever. And I was like, that sounds fun.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] So you would have identified as atheist that early?

Laci Green [00:37:02] Yeah, I mean I went from like Mormon to atheist.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Okay.

Laci Green [00:37:06] I think I just went from like not aware atheist to atheist. It wasn't really a switch. I don't think I ever believed in God personally.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] So you never had like this deep abiding Mormon testimony?

Laci Green [00:37:22] Well, I made it up. I did give testimonies, but I just like said what I knew I needed to. It's like, you know, you learn how to, how to talk.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] Right. Except. Except many of us convince ourselves that we believe it. We know we don't. We know we didn't get the witness, but we're like, well, if I just say it enough, maybe I'll start believing it.

Laci Green [00:37:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] That way you kind of fool yourself into thinking that you really do believe it.

Laci Green [00:37:50] I think I did do that.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] You did that for a little while.

Laci Green [00:37:53] Yeah. I think there's like this. You just perform it. Yeah. Like you said, and hope that maybe the light bulb will go off and something will make sense. But in the meantime, like, people seem to like when I say these things and go up and you know, bear my testimony and all that. So.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] So you became an atheist in your late teen years then or began identifying?

Laci Green [00:38:20] I started using the term atheist, Right?

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Oh yeah, yeah.

Laci Green [00:38:24] I started like reading a lot of philosophy and you know, getting into my, I don't know, woke philosopher phase, taking all these philosophy classes and like.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] Hmm.

Laci Green [00:38:35] Yeah, it was cringy, but yeah, that was when I started claiming the term atheist for sure.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] Well, okay, so I want to think that you were. I would want to. I wasn't into YouTube probably as early as you were, were there YouTubers doing sort of like YouTube the way you were doing it before you, or were you one of the inventors of the genre that now has become so massive?

Laci Green [00:39:06] There were definitely people doing atheist stuff. I would say that as far as pioneering a genre, I have had much more of an impact on sex ed than atheists.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] But I mean, just the idea of a YouTuber, right. An individual person monologuing. How much of that was going on

Laci Green [00:39:23] before you it was happening. There were definitely people before me, like, that wasn't me, you know, but there were a lot of people that were kind of bringing their new ideas and like, using their webcams to make videos. I was part of that first of the YouTube 1.0 crew. I didn't like, you know, I just sat in front of my camera and talked. There wasn't anything particularly innovative about what I was doing, but I was in the earlier conversations for sure.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] But I mean, now there's the term YouTube famous. I'm wondering if that term even existed when you started. Yeah, so the term. When you started YouTubing, the term YouTube famous didn't exist, and then you became YouTube famous. Okay, so when you started, you wouldn't have had the idea that that was. I mean, maybe you would have had. I thought about podcasts becoming wildly successful back in 2005, but you never know if that's really going to happen because back when I was doing podcasting, there weren't huge ones. Right. So for you, tell us about what kind of what started you youtubing. I know you've talked about this briefly, but what started you YouTubing? What. What did you envision it would lead to when you first started? Let's talk about how it grew while you're in school. That's also kind of weird.

Laci Green [00:40:49] Oh, gosh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Yeah.

Laci Green [00:40:51] Well, when I started, I was just looking for a community, desperately looking for a place to belong, you know, being this like, feminist atheist in a really religious town, you know, with. I had my buddies and like, my buddies in high school were still really tight. And I think it's cause we all went through that experience together feeling really alienated. But I needed more and I wanted to connect with more people. And I've always been on the Internet causing all kinds of trouble since I was 12 or 13. So the progression to troublemaking on YouTube was a natural leap at the time. But I had no idea.

Laci Green [00:41:35] Like, I didn't even think about it really. Like, oh, what is this thing? What's going on here? I Thought it was cool. There were so many other websites that that people were having conversations on YouTube was just unique in that it was a video.

Laci Green [00:41:50] So it didn't strike me as particularly different than maybe some of the chat rooms I was in or the forums I was on. It was like, oh, yeah, this is another way that people are having conversations.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] I have to say, it's kind of mind blowing because I'm sorry to interrupt, but millennials, like, you've said three things. They're not even going to know what they are. Like MSN messenger forums. You know what I mean? Forums.

Laci Green [00:42:14] Oh, yeah. I'm aging myself.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] No, no, no. I mean, not too bad. Like you're still young, but there's this era that really was a thing back then that now just doesn't exist. And modern day people don't even talk about these things. We talk about a forum. Most people are like, what's a forum? You know what I mean? Like, they've never been on one.

Laci Green [00:42:35] But the function of those forums, those discussions or MSM messenger, they do still exist in some form today. They're just evolved, like Facebook messenger or whatever. But yeah, it was a different time.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] It was. And I love that your podcast integrates some of these former tools and devices. I love that.

Laci Green [00:43:00] Oh, well, thank you. I think about them all the time. I'm like, whoa, what happened?

John Dehlin [00:43:05] It all seems so important at the time, right?

Laci Green [00:43:08] Yeah. And it feels surreal.

Early YouTube Videos and Leaving Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Okay, so your first YouTube video would have gone up what year about.

Laci Green [00:43:15] It went up in 2007 and it was about the Westboro Baptist Church and basically me continuing to scratch my head how so called religious people can continue to be hateful.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] Okay, so by that time, exmormon.org, the forum would have existed. There would have been a lot of ex Mormon and post Mormon forums. A few Mormon themed podcasts would have emerged, and then feminist Mormon housewives definitely would have come on the scene. 2004, 2005. Were you aware of any of that kind of progressive or post Mormon discourse that was happening prior to YouTubing?

Laci Green [00:43:58] A little bit, yeah. I was aware of ex Mormon.org okay.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] But not feminist Mormon housewives.

Laci Green [00:44:05] I've never heard of that.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Still.

Laci Green [00:44:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] That's so crazy. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, you weren't a housewife, so you, you know. But also. Yeah, that's an age group. Yeah, totally, totally, totally interesting. Okay, so you wouldn't have really been super plugged into that kind of post Mormon scene as we. As it was emerging?

Laci Green [00:44:24] No, I wasn't I was more integrated in, like, the rational discourse scene, you know, like with the atheists, and it's more about philosophy and, like, owning Christians or whatever. You know, it's all very cathartic but kind of dumb.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] So would it. Would it have been like, Samuel Harris, Sam Harris, Kristen Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, that whole secular wave that came post 911 as religion was being punched in the groin a little bit?

Laci Green [00:44:55] Yes. And I got involved with those kind of student organizations as well, like the Secular Student alliance in school.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] Okay, okay, okay. So your first. Your first YouTube video is about the Westboro Baptist Church, which is kind of a cult. And so how did it go from there? Did it. Was it well received? The very first one. Did you start small and scrappy?

Laci Green [00:45:16] Yeah, it's very scrap. It's still scrappy. Let's be honest. It's always been very scrappy. And yeah, the first videos I made were mostly about leaving the Mormon Church, some of my experiences in the church, kind of engaging philosophical arguments for and against the existence of God, you know, kind of. I was discussing a lot of things that I was learning in school in philosophy class, and the things I was reading, like Dawkins and Harris. So those were strong influences on me at that point. And I would say still, like, kind of shaped me into the thinker I am today, to be really critical. And I have a hard time being as unapologetic as they are, but that's something I do strive to be.

Laci Green [00:46:04] And eventually I moved more toward as I got into college and, you know, was still dealing with shame about my sexuality and still trying to figure out my sexual identity. I'm bisexual. And I thought, oh, maybe I'm gay. I'm straight, I'm gay, I'm straight. Like, I just went back and forth for years.

Laci Green [00:46:27] I realized, wow, it's kind of bullshit. But there's, like, nothing online about this still. Like the Internet, it's thriving. YouTube, it's becoming a thing. And there still wasn't much in the way of sexuality content. So that's the direction I decided to go. I also just got tired debating, like, God and religion. I was like, okay, I'm good. I'm out.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Yeah, it's a. It's a rat's nest for sure.

Laci Green [00:46:51] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Okay. So you would have. You would have dated boys and at some point then found that you had attraction to girls. And so. And that would have been still pre kind of a lot of this, you know, Prop 8. That would have been pre Prop 8. And so around Prop 8 right around Prop 8, which means America was still very new. I mean, let's face it, there's still a huge way to go. But 2008 would have still been very early for the LGBT discourse, right?

Laci Green [00:47:22] Yes. Yes, it was. But I did campaign with Prop 8, and that kind of made me feel more okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:30] Against it.

Laci Green [00:47:31] Yeah, against Prop 8, and that made me feel more okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] How did it feel that Mormons were sort of invading your home state, trying to influence the legislative process around, Really,

Laci Green [00:47:44] a nail in the coffin on that one.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] If there was any hope of you maintaining some ties to Mormonism, that killed it.

Laci Green [00:47:52] The final. Screw you guys.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] Screw you guys.

Laci Green [00:47:55] Seriously. What the fuck?

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Okay, so. So you drop the. The secular discourse and move to sexuality as the thing to focus on.

Laci Green [00:48:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] Okay. And were you at Berkeley by that point?

Laci Green [00:48:15] This was slightly before I moved to Berkeley.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] Okay, let's talk about Berkeley just super quick. So I only know what I know about Berkeley, which is growing up. Well, when I was in a conservative culture, it was where all that crazy hippie liberal protesting stuff happens. But then once I gained an intellectual awakening, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Berkeley is the home of many of our very important cultural and social movements. Berkeley is like, the home for it. UC Berkeley is like Ivy League west coast, but super legit. Did you, like, talk about getting into Berkeley? Was that something you were dreaming about? You know, like, was it super hard to do?

Laci Green [00:48:59] It wasn't. I don't know. Was it hard to do? I submitted my application and got in. Was it emotionally challenging? Yes, because I feared rejection and invalidation and being told that I was too dumb to go to Berkeley. So I actually, like, before I even got accepted, had convinced myself that I didn't want to go to Berkeley anyway. So I had made all these alternative plans because I was really scared of being rejected. But then I got in, and it was actually on a live stream that I opened your letter.

John Dehlin [00:49:32] Yeah, you could livestream to YouTube by 2008 or 9.

Laci Green [00:49:37] Oh, no, it wasn't on YouTube. It was on blog.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] Ah, look at that. Yeah.

Laci Green [00:49:41] Really old school over here. I'm such a hipster. Yeah. So I didn't even realize that it was the acceptance letter. I was just, like, talking and, like, you know, messing around and opened the Berkeley letter and. Yeah, it was a very sweet, memorable moment because I happened to do that with all my Internet friends.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] That's fun. Okay, so as you move to. As you move to talking about sexuality again, did you do that thinking by that point? I could Become, you know, a big hit on YouTube, talking about sexuality, or had that still not occurred to you?

Laci Green [00:50:20] No.

John Dehlin [00:50:21] So what. Why were you doing it?

Laci Green [00:50:22] That still never occurred to me, like, that. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be the big sexuality person. I just. That sounds like a nightmarish hell for me. And for the time that I kind of did occupy that position, it was a nightmarish hell.

Laci Green [00:50:40] So I just wanted to make videos and have fun and, like, share information, you know, help people, help myself feel empowered and okay in their bodies and their sexuality. Destigmatized, talking about vaginas and understanding pleasure and orgasm. Very, very shameful for a lot of women still.

Laci Green [00:51:03] And so that was kind of the goal that I had, was, let's have some fun here. Sexuality is fun. Relationships are wonderful. You know, it's a beautiful part of life. And I had been told my whole life that it was horrible and bad and. No, no, no. So this was my opportunity to reclaim it and hopefully help other people reclaim it in the process. And it was just meant to be some good old fashioned fun. And for a while it was.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] So it was to have fun and to educate.

Laci Green [00:51:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] But it was while you were going to school, right? I mean.

Laci Green [00:51:38] Yeah, well, part of it was I continued doing it after school.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Right, right. And then you were studying, what, by the time you got to Berkeley, what were you studying at Berkeley?

Laci Green [00:51:47] I studied legal studies and education.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] What were you thinking, career wise?

Laci Green [00:51:52] I was planning to become a lawyer in basically forensic sexual assault cases.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Okay. Okay. And did the YouTubing ever get in the way of your school at all?

Laci Green [00:52:04] Yeah, still does get in the way, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] Because you're in grad school now. Right.

Laci Green [00:52:11] Well, I wanted. I've been planning to go back and do my PhD for years, and it's been hard because I have. This is. This is the worst complaint I'm ever gonna have, and I apologize for how obnoxious this is, but I keep getting stopped because the. The projects I get to work on are so cool. So I feel like I can't give it up completely to go do what it takes to be in academia. But life is long. I don't want to have kids, so, you know, maybe I'll be able to embrace that in the near future.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] You know, what time I. You know, what age I started my PhD, right?

Laci Green [00:52:52] What age?

John Dehlin [00:52:53] 40.

Laci Green [00:52:53] Really?

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Yeah.

Laci Green [00:52:55] Oh, that makes me so happy.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] Yeah. As a podcaster.

Laci Green [00:52:59] Oh, and you did your podcast the whole time?

John Dehlin [00:53:02] Oh, yeah, yeah. In fact, I put myself through grad school by doing the podcast.

Laci Green [00:53:07] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] Yeah.

Laci Green [00:53:09] You have no idea how happy you just made me.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] I could give you all sorts of tips on how I did it too.

Laci Green [00:53:15] Oh, my God. We need to have that conversation.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] Yeah. Because I was. So this is what happened. I started. This is just brief, just for fun. 2005, I started the podcast. I stopped and started a few times because I realized how big it was in terms of really affecting people's lives. People would leave the church over it. Sometimes they'd end their marriages over it, but I stayed doing it. But then when I applied to grad school in psychology, I had to apply to BYU because there were only four psychology programs I was interested in in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] And Margi didn't want to leave Utah. So I applied to BYU and came Utah State and University of Utah got in. We stayed at Utah State, and I got a fellowship my first year. But then they offered me, like, $15 an hour assistantships. I'm like, I can't freaking support my wife and kids on $15 an hour. So I went to my listeners and I said, hey, listeners, I'll make a deal with you. I took the podcast down to apply to grad school. I'll start it back up. I'll start a nonprofit. And then if you, the listeners, will support what I do, kind of like mission based.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] We need to support Mormons in faith crisis. We need to save marriages. We need to prevent suicides and depression and all that stuff. And all the donations just started rolling in through the nonprofit.

Laci Green [00:54:33] That is so wholesome. I love it.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] Yeah. So I'm like, nine years into the nonprofit.

Laci Green [00:54:38] Oh, that is amazing.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] See Laci Green.

Laci Green [00:54:42] Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] And I don't have 1.4. And I don't have 1.4 million followers on YouTube.

Laci Green [00:54:49] Well, you know, it's not about the size of the following. It is about the quality. It's true.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] Yeah. Well, let's get into that. So, okay, so it was hard to do school, but you did finish at Berkeley. By the time you were done at Berkeley, were you still thinking law school?

Planned Parenthood, Berkeley, and YouTube Growth

Laci Green [00:55:11] Yeah, Well, I got offered a really cool job at Planned Parenthood right out the gate. So I was like, okay, cool, cool. I'll do this for a little bit and study for the lsat. And it just cycloned out of control from there because that was when my YouTube channel really took off and I started getting a lot of views. And this was when advertisers start noticing that, oh, there's something interesting happening here. A bunch of money starts getting pumped into YouTube around this time.

John Dehlin [00:55:46] What year? Around what year is this?

Laci Green [00:55:47] Oh, 2010.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] Okay.

Laci Green [00:55:51] Because I graduated. What year did I graduate? 2011.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] And was plan Parent. Was Planned Parenthood okay with you? Youtubing while you worked for them?

Laci Green [00:56:01] Oh, yeah, they loved it because you

John Dehlin [00:56:03] were a good spokesperson for.

Laci Green [00:56:05] Yeah. And this is also like during a period where there wasn't like as much fear about cancel culture and like people using social media to undermine these causes. Like, it was really just like, whoa, here's this cool new thing. Let's just do it. They had basically no bar holds and we went to town. So.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Okay, so what happens in your life as YouTube really starts to take off beyond your wildest dreams? What was that like for you? Like, talk about what it's like to start becoming YouTube famous. Especially when that genre, that position of YouTube famous had never heretofore really existed.

Laci Green [00:56:46] Yeah, well, it was weird. It was very scary.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] It's gotta be awesome that you're making a difference. People are listening and talking about you're making an impact if people are listening, right?

Laci Green [00:56:57] Yeah, no, it was awesome. It was cool. It was scary. I think I felt suddenly started feeling like all this pressure, like, oh, I need to make sure this is perfect and you know, everything that I'm putting out, if it's gonna reach a million people or something, like, I need to make sure that everything is exactly right and it looks nice and it's funny. And you know, I just started really like, you know, just really putting a microscope on magnifying glass on every aspect of my videos. And that became very, very exhausting over time. And as the.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Is that because people were scrutinizing every word you said and like slamming you if you made any mistakes or not.

Laci Green [00:57:44] At first it was entirely self imposed, like the Internet. There was always this group of people, mostly dudes who would just like be mean to me online and like call me misogynistic. Names like, that's been a constant from the atheist days. But I never felt the like woke culture that we have now until maybe 2014 or 2015. Things started to get really intense.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Wait, you were called, you were called misogynistic?

Laci Green [00:58:15] No, people call me, they would call me like a bitch and a cunt and like all these names all the time.

John Dehlin [00:58:20] Oh yeah, that's awful.

Laci Green [00:58:21] Just like angry dudes online, okay, Taking it out on me for some reason, always. I don't know, like, what did I do? I'm trying to help you get laid, dude. Stop being so mad.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] And they would just, they would treat you and, you know, one could go, oh, well, you don't know him, so it doesn't hurt you because you don't know him. Was that hurtful to have people being so personal in there? It's an obvious question, but yeah, it's

Laci Green [00:58:49] hurtful, you know, I mean, it's horrible having a parade of strangers follow you around online, calling you names, speaking every fear and insecurity you have about yourself. Like, it's awful. You know, I was like 21 or 22 years old, and I didn't have, like, the emotional strength that I have now. And it really, really was. Was challenging for me. Not really the name calling so much as just feeling like, oh, fuck, I'm never going to be good enough. Like, I'll never be enough. You know? And that is something that I just had to make my peace with. No, I'll never be enough. And that's fine because literally no one is enough.

Sex Education Content and Online Controversy

John Dehlin [00:59:32] Talk, talk about. Just for our listeners who haven't viewed your stuff, the three listeners who haven't viewed your stuff, talk about some of the episodes you would do. You know, just like what your YouTube videos were often like, and what types of topics you would cover at the time.

Laci Green [00:59:50] Well, I would talk about, like, vaginal health, STDs, slut shaming, I don't know, penis anatomy, like, pubic hair shaving. That really seemed to strike a nerve. People still ask me, are your armpits shaved today? I'm like, dude, literally 30. I put that out when I was 20 years old. Like, you are living in the past, bro. And no, they are not shaved today, FYI. Yeah, so it was a lot of stuff that was meant to be, like, young women's empowerment, but, you know, everyone empowerment, because everyone feels these things. But I was coming from the perspective of a young woman.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] Did you get compared to Ruth Westheimer right from the start, like a modern young hipster, you know, Ruth Westheimer? Did that come up almost immediately?

Laci Green [01:00:47] Yeah, somewhat. I mean, especially when the sex toys came out. You were like, oh, you know Dr. Ruth and Sujo Hansen.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] Yeah, I grew up with Dr. Phil, with Dr. Westheimer. Dr. Ruth, actually, I just saw a documentary on her that was really interesting.

Laci Green [01:01:06] Oh, yeah, I haven't watched that yet. It's in my queue.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] It's interesting. It's interesting. So. But I never got the sense that you were trying to be. And I don't think Dr. Ruth was either. I never got the sense you were trying to be scandalous or, like, push the limits just to be kind of, you know, Body or I don't know what the right word would be.

Laci Green [01:01:27] You were trying to educate edgelord. Edgelord, that's the term that is in the Internet.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] Okay, yeah.

Laci Green [01:01:35] No, I tried to push the limits.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] I sensed that your educational quality was very high and that your intentions were sincerely to educate. Like, that's what I always.

Laci Green [01:01:47] They always have been. I've never had any other intention other than that. Regardless of what people say or write or whatever the like, it's always just been about trying to, like, form online community and have that be positive and something that helps you feel good about yourself and, like, you have the tools to make your life and relationships the best they can be.

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Did you immediately start getting emails and messages from people saying you were incredibly, positively impacting their lives, their sex lives, their sexual identity, you know, just their sexual education and awareness? Did you get those early super positive affirmations?

Laci Green [01:02:30] Totally. Yeah. And that was part of why I kept doing it, because I was like, oh, wow. Like, this is really making a difference in someone's life, and that's totally worth it. And it's cool. Like, whoa, YouTube, this is amazing.

John Dehlin [01:02:45] Give us an example of some of the letters. What are some of those letters you would get early on?

Laci Green [01:02:49] Oh, mostly like, young women who would say, you know, I was terrified of having sex or masturbating. I actually, like, took a mirror and looked at my vulva and, wow, I feel so much less scared of my own body now. Or, well, I'm gay and I haven't come out yet. And your videos make me feel stronger. They make me feel like I'm not broken and beautiful. Very sweet things. Mostly from women and LGBT people, but occasionally also from guys, too. Usually guys would write me about, like, hey, this really helped me with my girlfriend. Or it helped me talk about sex with my daughters. Like, have a talk. A lot of single dads watch my videos because they're like, help me talk to my daughters.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] Yeah. When I got kicked out of the church, I had nothing to say to my teenage daughters. Like, they're going to be having sex probably. I have no idea what to tell them.

Laci Green [01:03:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] I've still only had sex with one person, you know, like, yeah.

Laci Green [01:03:49] And, like, I think single dads, they're like, like you said, we're all trying our best, and it's hard. Like, kids are hard having daughters. When you are a guy, a single guy, it's hard because it's harder to understand what they might specifically be experiencing. So that was always really endearing to being able to be a Resource for them.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] Yeah. So you're getting these positive emails and messages telling you you're making a big difference, and then it's swelling in popularity on the good side. On the bad side. You said you were doing it partly for fun. It sounds like some of the fun starts getting sucked out as you start. As your perfectionistic sort of impulses start elevating. And there's the negative criticism that kind of is inseparable from the positive affirmation. You really. You can't do anything of note in this world without getting hammered by a group of people that are either jealous or, you know, resentful or broken or just, you know, mean, unhappy. Right.

Laci Green [01:04:53] Yeah, for sure. But those people scared me because they would make physical threats to me, you know, or they would show up at talks at vine and.

John Dehlin [01:05:05] Really, what types of threat? Why would people threaten you? What types of threats?

Laci Green [01:05:09] Oh, you know, like rape threats. I'm gonna come to your house. Like, I know where you live. People posted my address. People posting my parents address, their church address.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Oh, no, that's like doxing before the term existed, probably.

Laci Green [01:05:24] Yeah, yeah, a lot of doxing and just, like, trying to freak me out and scare me into silence, which usually they didn't, but sometimes they did. So it's just freaked.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] I mean, what is that like, you know, there's the. There's the famous sex, politics, and religion. They're all third rails. You don't talk about about. What is it about? I get the religious part and the sexuality part because we've talked a lot about sex, but I've never had someone threaten to rape me. Like, what is it about an empowered young woman talking about sex? Do you think that brings out such incredible animosity with some people? Have you tried to figure that out?

Laci Green [01:06:05] Have I tried to figure that out?

John Dehlin [01:06:06] Absolutely.

Laci Green [01:06:08] For years. I don't understand it. I really don't. The only explanation I have, and I try to avoid going to this explanation when there is an alternative explanation, a more flattering explanation, but I really do think these people just don't like women. They don't like women speaking. They don't like women succeeding. They feel threatened by it. And that's sad, you know, and it's not a majority of people, and it is not a majority of men either. It's like a very small, loud, obnoxious group of people that really poison the well for everyone else.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Yeah. I'm so sorry that happened.

Laci Green [01:06:49] Oh, I appreciate it. I. Yeah, it is what it is.

Fame, Recognition, and Making Money on YouTube

John Dehlin [01:06:55] So. Okay. So do you remember when you first Started getting noticed randomly out in public for your work?

Laci Green [01:07:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] And how early. How early or late was that?

Laci Green [01:07:09] That was when I was at Berkeley.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] So, like, is it fellow Berkeley students or is it just people around town? In the coffee shop or.

Laci Green [01:07:18] Around town, mostly? Yeah, My. That also freaked me out, actually, because I was being doxed and stuff. Like, I lived in this apartment building when I was a student at Berkeley, and my neighbor comes over one day and just knocks on the door and he's like, you're Laci Green?

John Dehlin [01:07:40] And I'm like, yes, that's creepy as heck.

Laci Green [01:07:44] Who are you? Yeah, who are you? He's like, I'm your new neighbor. And he just went back in his house.

John Dehlin [01:07:54] And I was like, creepy af.

Laci Green [01:07:57] Yeah. Like, okay, cool. Now I have to, like, know that my neighbor literally has my address because he's my neighbor and he could post it online or do weird stuff or listen to me or. I don't know. I was freaking out, you know, because he was so creepy about it. Maybe he was just socially awkward or something. But stuff like that started happening, and that was when I really started to consider, hey, Internet is maybe not for me. It's too much stress and fear and anxiety to be worth it.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] Well, that wasn't late in your. I imagine you took off and that would have started happening earlier in your YouTube career. Not towards the end, right?

Laci Green [01:08:48] I mean, well, that wasn't toward the end. You know, that was like 2010.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Okay. So even in 2010, you were saying, well, I'm not sure this is worth it.

Laci Green [01:08:58] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] And the difference between, you know, so obviously when I go to. You go anywhere in Utah, I'm not, obviously. But when I go anywhere in Utah, I'm usually recognized sometimes in other states, especially if it's like Arizona or Idaho. I mean, I was at a musical on Broadway and someone recognized me, but people from Idaho, Utah. Right. So. But. But I would never have been recognized in Ohio or, you know, Texas or Florida. And that's what's. That's one big difference is you would have been recognized anywhere in the US and probably overseas, too. That's a whole nother order of magnitude intensity. Right?

Laci Green [01:09:38] Yeah, yeah. It was happening all over everywhere I was going. Yeah, it was. You know, there's part of it that's like, wow, that's really validating and cool, and it's really cool to make meet people. And I'd say that was, you know, 70 or 80% of what I was feeling at the time. But there's also this part of Me that worried about my loss of anonymity. I tend to be a very private person compared to a lot of other YouTubers who just want to blast out every freaking thing, every thought that crosses through their mind. I am a little bit more reserved, and I do like my privacy.

Laci Green [01:10:14] And, you know, I like to hole up in my house feeling like, oh, there's a little. This is a red flag. Like, I don't want to feel like I can't go to the grocery store and worry about. I don't know, what if it's someone who's not nice who approaches me, you know? And there have been moments where I've gotten a really weird vibe from people who have said, hey, I recognize your stuff. And not in like, hey, I recognize yourself. Can I have a hug? You know, like, that's always welcome. But it was the kind of underside that freaked me out.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] Okay, so how did the. So, like, I have no way of knowing, like, whether someone who gets YouTube famous makes. I can imagine it being 10 grand a year or, like 5 million a year. And I have no idea of knowing, number one, what the scale of financial compensation is once you reach a million subscribers or more. And then secondly, what that does, what money does to your intentions and what you're doing and the spirit of what you're doing, the fun of it, but also the pressure. Talk about whatever you're comfortable talking about. The money part. Yeah, I'm just fascinated, you know.

Laci Green [01:11:39] Yeah, sure. Well, while I was in college, I made enough on YouTube to cover most of my rent, so I was making maybe 10 grand a year at the time. But how much YouTubers make depends on a lot of factors.

Laci Green [01:11:54] It's not just like you have a million subscribers, therefore you make X amount of money. It is really dependent on the types of brands that want to work with you. Are they big massive brands or are they small independent brands who maybe don't have a huge budget to sponsor your videos? Most of the companies I ended up working with were small. There were a couple that were big, like Trojan and Audible.

Laci Green [01:12:20] Yeah. And so they pay me really well. But most of the companies that I work with, some apps like sexual Health stuff, not. Didn't really make much, you know, to be Frank. And my AdSense never really made much from that. You know, I make maybe a few grand a year from that now.

Laci Green [01:12:42] But where I made most of the money at the time was doing live events. So I would put on talks and stuff at schools and workshops and things like that. Also writing a book, paid pretty well.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] So you got a book deal like in advance on a book deal?

Laci Green [01:13:00] Yeah, getting a book deal, totally. Not just like self publishing, but having a guarantee that this would be worth my time. And I worked with MTV and Discovery Channel too, like hosting videos. I paid, you know, decent. Not a ton, but it was decent enough. And I don't want to go into specifics because that opens me up to people feeling some kind of way. But you know, in my time on YouTube, especially say after college, I've always been paid like, you know, an upper middle class job where it's fairly good pay. It's not amazing. I wasn't rolling in it except for a couple of deals I got made off pretty well.

Laci Green [01:13:43] But those were just one offs, you know, wasn't like a ongoing thing. So yeah, YouTubers can do pretty well. It just depends. You can also do have YouTubers who have tons of tons of views and aren't actually making that much money. And this is one of the weird conundrums that some people talk about where you can be famous and recognized in public and still not making any money, like not able to pay the rent. So it's a weird, it's a weird industry economically.

Laci Green [01:14:12] But if you, if you know what you're doing and you're smart about it, you can make enough to get by or to, you know, do pretty decently.

John Dehlin [01:14:19] And did that, did the eventual finance, I mean, because that's good. Upper. Was middle class. Upper middle class. What have you said that's good? Like I'm, I'm happy to hear that. Did that change things? Did money entering into the picture make it better, make it worse, make it awful? Great, ruin it. Like, what did it, what did the money do?

Laci Green [01:14:40] Okay, there's a couple of things where I think the money changed my world a little bit. One is that it incentivized me to continue working on YouTube, which where I would have otherwise been off on my way in another direction, like I said with the PhD, you know, I'm doing cool projects. And I will say honestly, most of it is that they are cool projects. I'm not sticking around cause the pay is like crazy buku bucks, right? It pays me well, it pays me enough to be happy and I get to do cool stuff. So that's always been kind of a deterrent from going into other fields where I don't know, would I be happier in academia?

Laci Green [01:15:19] Probably, I don't know. Who knows though? Who knows? So there's that aspect of it and then there's also the perception from other people who think because you have a million subscribers, you're making a million dollars. They literally think like, oh, for every subscriber this person has, that's how many dollars they make. And that is incredibly wrong.

Laci Green [01:15:42] And so people start to treat you the way people treat you is different because they think that you are rich or something. And it's like, okay, well, at least you're telling me what kind of people to avoid in my life.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1204

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sa. There are all sorts of people who do well in life, like engineers, biochemists, lawyers, doctors, you know, people who, you know, people who make plastics. Like there are all sorts of ways people make money. It is so interesting if somebody stands up in public to try and educate and improve society. Kind of as almost a social entrepreneur.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] It's weird how angry. First of all, there's just a fair question which is like, why shouldn't somebody who's helping. Is anyone going to disagree that sexual health is core to the human experience and human identity? No one rational or logical or credible. So assuming that sexual health is central to the human experience and essential for happy marriage, happy life, happy single life, whatever it is, and then there's somebody who stands up doing a really effective good job at educating people and helping them have better sexual health, better sexual identity, better sexual relations.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] You would think everyone would be like, give that woman a million bucks a year because that's she's making a huge positive difference. Right. But in the lives of so many people in such a positive way. But that's not how money works with many of the followers and listeners, is it?

Laci Green [00:02:03] No, I think in fact the opposite happens.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] Yeah. What happened to you? What happens?

Laci Green [00:02:08] People who do social good in their jobs, that type of work is often not profitable by nature. We're not selling people things, you know, we're not selling services. We're not, you know, we're not participating in capitalism in the same way. So there's the media aspect of it. Like media is monetized so you can make money there. But the cause based stuff and nonprofit stuff and activist stuff in general, you know, I think it's. I have a lot of thought thoughts on this topic and I've thought about it a lot. As someone who has monetized some of my activism, you know, I think the activists should be.

Laci Green [00:02:50] There should be a way in society for more social good stuff to be paid without the sort of blessing of our, of our oligarchs, all the rich people who are like, yeah, I can support that cause. Like, it shouldn't rely on some overarching power structure to endorse social justice or I would call Mormon stories social justice. You know, these socialists.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] I do, I certainly do. Yeah. Yeah.

Laci Green [00:03:17] I mean it is, it's like, you know, freeing people from the oppressive forces that have shaped their life lives in so many ways. And yeah, I think that people should be able to make a living doing that. Now, something that has happened with the Internet, the sort of dark side of all of this is that people realize you can make money by being professionally woke or whatever. And now you have Teen Vogue putting on these activist conferences and charging people, like, $700 to go. Oh, my. Go cannot even. It is so ridiculously corrupt. Like, all of these media entities that have just sort of, like, latched onto these social justice causes to make money.

Laci Green [00:04:00] And I think that's a huge part of why the leftist social movements went so awry, because all of these big media companies came in and started, like, saying, hey, this gets clicks and this gets views. Just say whatever outrageous, ridiculous shit you can and get people to click on this stuff. And it's inflamed all of the dialogue of discourse about this. It's made it so extreme, and it has obscured real activist voices who are not, you know, speaking the right language or using the right discourse. And it just really makes me upset. That stuff really makes me upset.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] Yeah. And I thought about. Even when I was seeing your stuff and other people, I'm like, should I do Google Ads? Should I do YouTube ads? Should I get sponsors? And I just. I never thought that I'd be able to ever monetize it enough to where it would be worth having my audience feel like they were being sold to. And so I just never. I've really just never done sponsorships.

Laci Green [00:05:03] Yeah, I wish that I could do that. I feel bad doing crowdfunding because I feel like, oh, well, I don't want to, like, ask people for money, and I can find another job where I make enough money to support myself without and try to, like, use that to subsidize the work that I do. But that is proving to be more challenging.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Yeah.

Laci Green [00:05:32] Because now it's like, oh, well, I'm. I work, like, six or seven days a week trying to, like, basically be able to fund all the projects that I don't want to do sponsorships for. Yeah, yeah. It's rough. And I think that people, at least now have a higher knowledge of how the whole influencer, which I hate that word, but the influencer ecosystem works. So they're more tolerant of sponsors and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] Yeah, yeah. And it's. It's just. It's just something we're. And that's what. That's. That's one of the reasons why I think your podcast is so interesting and important, because these are the types of topics you are covering and will be covering. You definitely have a strong social justice bent. You definitely have a lot of history in social media, and you care a lot about society and discourse and our conversation and you know, our collective awakening. And I love that you're trying to make a mark in the nexus of all that. I don't know who else is really doing that. So I really want that to be successful.

Laci Green [00:06:41] Thank you. I do, too. I don't know if it's like a topic that people are really thinking about as much, but I certainly.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] It's crucial. I mean, just. Just right now with the political discourse alone, but religious discourse, it's the same way. You know, we've got it. We've got to get better. Okay, so talk to us about. So we talked about the money, we talked about the fame a little bit. We talked about kind of the negativity. There's a clear sense from your podcast and from things written about you and things you share that there came a point where things started really going horribly wrong in your YouTube kind of career, but also with your mental health. And take as much time as you want on that. I don't want to rush through that. If you want to start, take us back to where we left off. But I'd love to hear the bill more about the build and then how things got more complex and then how they started to fray.

Mental Health Challenges and Online Harassment

Laci Green [00:07:41] Yeah, well, if you're comfortable sharing, sure. Yeah, of course. You know, we've kind of talked about a lot of that stuff already.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] Okay, that's fine.

Laci Green [00:07:49] Through the, like, through that lens of the mental health stuff, you know, I've always been really depressed. It's been a struggle my whole life, since I was a teenager, and it was much worse when I was a teenager. I did finally get a doctor that knows what she's doing a few years ago. So I've been in a better place since then. But YouTube in general is a horrible trap for mental health, I think, and it requires people to be working 24 7. It never allows you to take a break. It never allows you to shut off. It is a recipe for disaster for anybody.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] How so? Why isn't it just like make a video or two week and then kind of like do an occasional speaker appearance, occasional workshop, and then just keep it kind of chill? I think I know the answer, obviously, but I want you to explain it to the audience.

Laci Green [00:08:46] Well, you get penalized for that stuff by your audience, by the algorithm, and it's hard to sustain yourself without this sort of constant push. The way the YouTube algorithm works is you need to get your watch time up. So that's why you have people who post, you know, really long videos, 20, 30 minute long videos now, whereas old school YouTube was 2 to 3 minute videos. It was much more focused on being concise rather than expanding, which I think there are merits to both algorithms. But in general it has created the demand for a much higher quantity of videos and stuff in order to be successful and to thrive on the, on the platform.

Laci Green [00:09:32] There's also social media, which is a constant non stop, you know, drumming in the background all day, all night. And I think a lot of people struggle with how do, how do you balance it when social media is part of your income, when it's part of your business, I guess.

Laci Green [00:09:51] And so there's, there's those elements of it, but it's also a lot of work for free up front. So people are trying to get their channels to a point where they can monetize it. It's just a big, a big old mess. So I think that's part of it. And I did feel some of that like pressure to be posting a lot.

Laci Green [00:10:11] But I would say the bigger problem for me was the pressure to be some sort of. I don't like this person who is not really a person, I guess this sort of talking head for all of these topics. And you know, I've always been interested in feminism, I've always been interested in social justice and sexuality stuff. But there is a group of activists or people who subscribe to particular ideologies about these topics who are very authoritarian and dogmatic and act just like, they act like a freaking mob, man. Like it's so crazy. These people are like thugs. They're running around trying to threaten people. You know, just like being, trying to shut down conferences, trying to shut down this, trying to, you know, you've seen like people talk about antifa all the time. It's not just antifa. There's a lot of people.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Okay, tell us what antifa is for those of us who don't know.

Laci Green [00:11:17] Oh God, I don't want to be the person to introduce anybody to antifa. It's just a group of leftist activists basically, who believe, I think one of their like taglines is by any means possible or something, where they basically think that violence is justified as long as the ends justify the means. Right. That's the basic core philosophy of some of these groups.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] And these are leftist extremists, right?

Laci Green [00:11:41] These are leftist people. Yeah. And that's been challenging because it's easy for me to look at right wing extremists and be like, here's what's going on here. Right? But with some of the leftist extremism, I'm just like, what is going on here. Like, this is not liberal. This is extremely illiberal. These tactics, the anti free speech, the censorship, the violent threats. This is not liberal. And yet these people are calling themselves liberal so that the rise of those types of movements, these really extreme leftist movements, which I think was really birthed by tools like Twitter, which amplify the voices of extremists, which give them more of a space in the culture than they really occupy in reality, have accelerated a really nasty toxic discourse.

Laci Green [00:12:36] And yeah, people started bringing that stuff into my page, understandably, because I was talking about social justice stuff and talking about feminism, and it's not really the sex stuff that was the problem was my sharing ideas about feminism and gender equality and. Oh, boy.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] Wait, so you got attacked? You went to freaking Cal Berkeley, You're a feminist sex positive YouTuber, and you're getting attacked on the left?

Laci Green [00:13:08] Yes, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] What would the left have? What beefs would the left have with you?

Laci Green [00:13:14] Well, there were a number of controversies that were made up, but there were also, like, people started lying about me and saying I'm alt right, and all this shit. I'm like, dude, I am a Berkeley granola girl. Like, that is so far from my purview and my beliefs. It's ridiculous that anyone even believes that about me. But they do because someone wrote it on the Internet, which is obviously the most credible source of information out there.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] So people on the left started smearing you?

Laci Green [00:13:46] Yeah. One of the facilitating events was when I decided that I was gonna go on conservative talk shows and have conversations with some of the prominent conservative voices, which I did. And I would say.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] Which types of talk shows? Which types of voices? If you're.

Laci Green [00:14:05] Well, I went a bunch of people. I talked to Blair White, who is a conservative trans YouTuber. I talked to Steven Crowder, who is a conservative YouTube guy. He's been around for a while. I'm sure you've heard of him. I talked to Sargon, who had made a number of videos about me and other feminist YouTubers. Yeah, there were a number of people in that land, but that.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] And I'm sure the conservatives aren't flattering to you, right?

Laci Green [00:14:42] Are they flattering to me?

John Dehlin [00:14:44] I'm sure that they weren't. I'm sure they were attacking you or criticizing you, right?

Laci Green [00:14:49] No, they did. They. They did criticize me. Surely I welcome criticism. There's nothing wrong with criticism. That's how we learn things. They did not attack me. And I would say that that is the distinction there. Like, you can't have A conversation. If you're attacking someone, if you're lying about them, if you're, you know, calling them names, you know, threatening them.

Laci Green [00:15:13] This is obvious to most people. That's not how you have a civil conversation. But, yes, I would say. Oh, and Dave Rubin, too, was another one that got me a lot of flack. But, yeah, I went on their shows. I talked, I shared my perspectives, which remain liberal. Well, remain feminist. Liberal feminist refers to a specific school of thought which I'm not 100% in that camp, but fairly liberal feminist.

Laci Green [00:15:42] And, yeah, shared my opinions and thoughts and listened to the opinions and thoughts of people who see things very differently than me. And I think that was an important intellectual journey that I went on and I'm continuing to. To be on. And I was, you know, reamed. Reamed for that and lost my feminist card or something. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] How long ago was this?

Laci Green [00:16:11] Oh, a couple years ago.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] And I just. I just have to tell you, you won't have any of this history, but I've been interviewing ex cult members of other cults, right? So ex Jehovah's Witnesses, ex Scientologists, ex Orthodox Jews. And without fail, every activist that I've talked to so far said that their worst opposition didn't come from the other side of the aisle. It came from the fellow activists within their domain that shared their general ideology. Oh, yeah, the most ferocious, the most dishonest, the most disingenuous, the most destructive, toxic came from what we call friendly fire.

Laci Green [00:17:01] I 100% agree with that. It is the nastiest stuff I've ever seen on the Internet, and it is coming from people who I agree with. And that has caused a little bit of an existential crisis for me. Am I agreeing with the wrong things? And what is going on here? You know, it's a real head scratcher, and it's something that I haven't really wrapped my head around. I don't understand. I mean, I think there's a lot of toxic, stupid shit in, like, all political communities entirely. But for me personally, like, it's definitely been the most tumultuous with my own folks. Like, we're fighting for the same things, dude. We are out here and have been out here for over a decade. So what is going on? I don't understand it.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Was it mostly fellow feminist or progressive YouTubers that were attacking you?

Laci Green [00:18:05] My critics are. Yeah. Yep, it's mostly the progressives. Like, most of my friends now are conservative on YouTube and, like, I disagree with them. Vehemently on a lot of stuff, but not everything. Like, we both agree that, like, the state of discourse is awful. They tend to be more liberal than people think they are. You know, they're in favor of a lot of the same things. We want some of the same things. Not all of the same things, but some enough to find common ground, you know, and to try to make some movement on how we should be talking about and engaging with these things.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Yeah. And so the only way I can make sense of that, and I know this is reductionist, but the only way I can make sense of that is just jealousy and envy. It's like if you happen to get in early into a social media space.

John Dehlin [00:18:58] And by the way, people don't see the years and years and years you give, getting nothing for it, sacrificing incredible things. But once you hit that hockey, you know, that hockey stick spike or whatever, and you start to get noticed, you start to become.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] The only way I can make sense of it is the friendly fire is just there's other people that think they're smarter. They probably are smarter. They think they're more woke, they think they're more wise. They've got their own brand of whatever it is they've got.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] And they hate you for the fact that they have not had the voice or the views or the downloads or the clicks or the donations that you have. I don't know how else to make sense of it.

Laci Green [00:19:44] I mean, I'm sure that's some of it. And that is, pardon my French, but fucking stupid. Yeah, that is really dumb and petty and immature. Grow up, dude. There's plenty of space on the Internet for everyone.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Right.

Laci Green [00:19:59] If your whole brand or your whole motive is to just try to attack and tear other people down, get a life, do something useful, you know, maybe start up an educational series and try to reach people. Geez.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] Exactly. Exactly.

Laci Green [00:20:13] Wrong with people.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Yeah, and sometimes. But the other thing I've noticed is my biggest enemies and critics and by the way, I've been, I've been. I've been accused publicly on the Internet of really horrific things. Like things, you know, things that are just zero basis of truth at all. Like, but things that would put someone in prison, things that would. Things that are like, against everything I stand for. But there's always this paradox of if you respond to it, then you're giving it what they want, which is clicks and attention, and you're building the story by responding. But then if you don't respond, then you're accused of hiding something or of being Guilty by silence.

Laci Green [00:21:08] Yes. Can't win.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] What?

Laci Green [00:21:11] Can't win. There is no winning. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] And so you just see like I really did get into this to help people. I went how many years, not just like not making money, but sacrificing for me six figure salaries over multiple years. Now that we're starting to have impact along the mission of why we started really reaching people. People want to not just harm what you do, but destroy you as a person. Tear everything down and. Yeah, and you really. It's not just like, oh my gosh, my podcast may not do well. It's like I may never be able to work again. You think about. Because the level of publicity you reach the fall, if the fall is as big as the rise, you could end up nothing. You could end up wanting to die because people believe all the rumors and your whole hireability is destroyed. Where do you go now? I'm sorry, I've been talking so much, I'm venting.

Laci Green [00:22:17] No, please.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] Because I'm connecting with so much of what I've heard you talk about. Now will you take over and give your side of it? Because.

Laci Green [00:22:26] Well, I 100% agree with you, John. I think it's really bullshit and I feel all the same way. All the same things you're feeling. I have, yeah. I think that it can really do a number on people emotionally and has done a number on me emotionally, you know, trying to like deal with the fact that so many people have decided to lie about me, to spread those lies, to believe those lies, things that are just blatantly not true at all.

Laci Green [00:22:55] It really has made me feel like a lot of people are not good people. And it's made me feel like social media is a tool for bad people to exploit and use to divide us, to ruin people, to express, to, you know, exert power over people that they don't like, they don't agree with whatever it may be. And yeah, it's been really hard feeling like I've always just tried my best. I've always just tried to do right by the people that I was trying to reach, you know, and never intend to hurt anyone, never intend to oppress anyone. You know, it's just I'm trying to do what I think is right and being told by stupid online rags who are trying to get clicks about you and you know, people who use your name to bolster their own status and you know, their own brand is really nasty and has definitely been the biggest contributor to me being like, bye, I'm out, I can't, I Don't want to.

Laci Green [00:24:12] I don't want to be in this environment. I don't. It's not worth it to me. And part of it is just that I felt like I was, you know, good. Like, I had made so many videos about that stuff that I was kind of getting tired of the topic anyway. But I just didn't really see a way forward for myself that didn't end in me completely imploding.

Laci Green [00:24:37] And I had to take almost a whole year off this last year to try to get back into a better place, mental health wise, and to try to figure out how to feel like I have purpose and meaning in this world when there's so many people telling me, like, you know, I'm making things horrible for them.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] I'm so sorry.

Laci Green [00:25:07] Sorry. It's bringing out more feelings than I thought it would have. I spent a lot of time just, like, pushing down. I think people need to realize, like, the people, the people you watch online are real people. And, you know, they're not just faces on a screen. They have lives, they have wants and dreams and things that they think are important in the world. And especially with people who are trying to do something good online. Like, I'll never understand tearing down someone who's trying to do something good. It just.

Laci Green [00:25:45] It doesn't make sense in my mind. And I've. Maybe I participated in some of that in the past when I was an idiot and, you know, made some mistakes along the way. But in general, I've really tried to be more cognizant about the experiences that people who are making things online are having and the effect that this crazy world, this loud, you know, digital world we live in has on them. And I don't think there's enough support. You know, I think a lot of people feel alone and they feel like they're the only ones experiencing this. They're the only ones who are struggling. And that's part of why I made a direct message, because I want to let people know they're not and really have a conversation about that.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] I'm really, really appreciative of your vulnerability and your candor. Gustavo says, I wish I could give Lacy a hug.

Laci Green [00:26:40] Oh, is that. Oh, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] That's just one of the comments. That's it. Gustavo Gonzalez. It's just one of the commenters on Facebook, if it's okay. So I just so resonate for the people that have attacked me most, that were people whose voices, whose own creative projects weren't getting traction, and at some point they just Realized that if they bring my name up, if they invoke me, that's guaranteed to stir up a hornet's nest, and they'll get all the clicks and the likes.

Laci Green [00:27:15] And I do think that's so sad if that's what's going on. I really don't want to believe that people will do that. But.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] Well, in their minds, I think they think they really are fighting for some important cause. I just wonder if they've really done the math to understand the net effect of. Of us when we're going up against so much money, so much power, so much influence. It's so hard for us to be tearing each other down when we're all just barely scrambling. You know, there's no way I'll ever make back the money I gave up to do this, because I was making 200 grand a year at Microsoft in 2004, right? If I had stayed there for 10 years instead of, like, nine years of grad school, I'd be freaking retired by now.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] I'll never make that money back. I will never make that money back. But people don't. They don't care. They're like, oh, now you're making a living, so I must destroy you. Even though we're on the same team. Let me ask you this. So some of these.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] So let's just say there was a coach going back to Lacy two or three years ago, and a lot of this friendly fire. These progressives that are attacking you, what makes you care about them so much? So, like a glib counselor would say, Lacy.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] And, oh, by the way, how many people want 1.4 million subscribers on YouTube? Like, that's half of America's dream right now. And so there's a group of people to be like, lacy, come on, you reached it. You arrived.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] Ignore the losers, ignore the critics. Just keep doing what you're doing. That's one strain of a question that I have. And then the other strain is, like, on a personal note, what made it so. It was so hard to just tune out the negative voices.

Laci Green [00:29:12] I think it just became too many. Like, when mainstream media outlets started publishing lies about me. That was when I was like, I can't. I can't go up against this. Like, and I'm. I don't have the energy to fight because I've been. The whole time I've been on YouTube has felt like a fight. You know, it's felt like struggling with all my own demons. And it just feels. At that point, it just felt too big. It was like, okay, if this is who you want me to be.

Laci Green [00:29:51] I'm out. You know, I can't, like, I don't want to spend my whole life fighting with this idea or this, you know, narrative that people are trying to push about me. It's hurtful, it's exhausting, and it really, you know, I struggle with my mental health. When everything's great, I feel unexplained sadness and a desire to just peace out of the world on a very constant basis. And so having all this shit on top of it, I can't. I personally don't have the strength.

Laci Green [00:30:28] Some people do. And, you know, I hope those people prevail and I'm, you know, rooting for them, but I don't. And especially knowing, like, I don't want to be a media person. I don't like making videos. I don't like having to feel like I'm a spokesperson for anything.

Laci Green [00:30:52] I just started to think, well, you know, okay, all this stuff's happening, and I could fight and keep, you know, duking it out with these people at great personal cost, or I could just move on and do something that makes me happy and isn't. Constant fighting, isn't constant combativeness, constant chaos and conflict.

Laci Green [00:31:17] I'm not, I can't deal with that. I can't deal with it. I don't know how people do, their personalities are very, like, drawn to conflict. The people who do well in this sphere, the people who, like, keep going, they're okay with the conflict. They like the conflict.

Laci Green [00:31:38] I don't, and I can't. And I think there's a point where you have to just recognize this is the type of person I am. This is what I need to be happy. And constantly duking it out with the Internet, you know, trying to, I don't know, have my own narrative is not worth it. It's not worth it. So no amount of money is worth it.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] Yeah, honestly. Yeah, I, I, I don't know what I'd be like if I hadn't found Mormon stories, but generally I feel like I've had pretty good mental health. I've never been prone to debilitating anxiety, and I've never been prone to heavy depression. Like maybe my dad, but I have had suicidal ideation as a podcaster, especially in the past few years when people that used to be close friends started coming at me with life ending lies.

Laci Green [00:32:40] Oh, no.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] So, I mean, I, you know. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's always people that I championed, people that I was supportive of, people that I helped people whose careers I supported. But, but, but here's the thing. What I'm saying is I'm so dripping with privilege, Lacy. Like, I'm six foot six. I had a successful career before this. You know, we. We were able to put a little bit of money into savings. Like, and I'm married and I've got four kids and I've got. My parents support me and my siblings love me. And I'm a white, heterosexual, you know, straight cisgender male. Right. And I'm 50.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] So, like, it is, but it is. But the thing is, nobody gives a crap if you've been successful at something nobody cares about that they're not gonna have any sympathy for you because you've been successful. You've achieved what so many of them wanted to. It reminds me of Judy Garland and freaking every rock star that's ever existed. Like, those people are never gonna get any pity, but in some ways, we destroyed them because that's what happened. You just look at it. Michael Jackson, Prince, Whitney Houston, Kurt Cobain. Like, I could list 50 famous people that all died from drug addictions because the public scrutiny can be so punishing.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] And what I'm really trying to say is I can't imagine this, trying to do this as a 19 year old, single queer female like that. Like, I barely have survived it.

Laci Green [00:34:23] Well, I don't think that. I do think there are privileges, obviously, but I also think, you know, in some ways, like, excusing yourself from the reality of those feelings is similar to the way we excuse celebrities from those feelings. Like, it doesn't matter what your identity is. Like, people feel and people hurt. And maybe in like the big picture, like, yes, white men, you know, are, on average, they're gonna have an easier time with this stuff, you know, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't really, really mess people up. And the same goes for celebrities, for YouTube influencers, for anybody who has any sort of public, public Persona.

Laci Green [00:35:09] I think that people dehumanize and forget. You know, I really. The way that people were talking to me and the way that people have talked to me has always felt like, do you not realize, like, would you talk to me this way if I was right in front of you? Would you still speak to me and call and say these things, or would you even feel these things if I was right in front of you? And I think there is like a layer of removal that happens. And maybe part of it, as you seem to be saying, is a layer of envy or feeling threatened or insecure about what other people do with their lives.

Laci Green [00:35:52] But you know, even so, that seems like something that people should be able to easily recognize. Like, okay, well, I want to be a YouTuber or something. I don't understand why that thought or want goes to, okay, I'm going to be abusive and horrible to other people in my pursuit of this.

Laci Green [00:36:17] Like that, that line does not make sense to me. And it's very depressing because it's like people might be doing a lot of this stuff without even realizing it. Like they're just, they so lack the self awareness.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] Right.

Laci Green [00:36:33] And those people are the ones who are most likely to succeed. And that's not good. Yeah, you don't want the sociopaths to always be God. It's awful.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] So I have to read some of the comments some of our listeners are writing to you. So Angela, N O is, was in my, you know, was in grad school with me. I love Angela. She, like you, figured Mormonism out as a teen and left.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] And she's also, she has a Native American background and so she's dealt with a lot of the racism and a lot of that cultural stuff that's just punishing. But she's one of the wisest, kindest, smartest people I know. She writes, lacey, I loved your videos and I think the voices of the trolls were just louder than the voices of many of your many fans. Don't forget about all the good you do and don't lose sight of the fact that that many people do support you.

John Dehlin [00:37:39] Ivana writes, for one troll, there's 10,000 people that love you. And then my own nephew, I love my nephew John Faust. He writes, I discovered your videos a few years ago. I really appreciated the early philosophy videos. They helped me figure out the early stages of my own Mormon faith crisis.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] But a lot of these people are kind of saying the same thing. And I think this is true. And this is true for me and I'm certain it's true for you. And I want to get your take on it. For me, the positive comments and emails and everything is like a thousand to one. Negative.

Laci Green [00:38:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] What was your ratio? What?

Laci Green [00:38:22] I don't have a ratio, but I would say, yeah, about 90% of the stuff I would see online was really cruel. And so, you know, to this day I am still.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] Wait, 90% was cruel?

Laci Green [00:38:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] That's freaking YouTube.

Laci Green [00:38:38] Yeah, that's YouTube.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] That is YouTube and Twitter. That's why I've never, I don't pay attention to YouTube comments. Never have. And I, and I, and I've stopped doing Twitter?

Laci Green [00:38:50] Yeah, YouTube and Twitter. But Facebook was really bad, too. People spread all kinds of things about me on Facebook. My Facebook community became really toxic. People kept trying to accuse me of being transphobic when all I've done is champion trans rights online for years. Like, you know, these people just have no idea. Like, they don't have no idea how I actually think about these things or feel. And, yeah, that side of the feminist conversation just completely took over my Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] So you had a Facebook group?

Laci Green [00:39:24] Yeah, I have a Facebook page, and it's still up. I have had someone go through and curate a lot of that stuff so that I don't have to see it, because, you know, it really was so bad. Like, there was very little positive that I was seeing online. And my condition, me, I started having, like, heart palpitations and getting panic attacks every time I would even open Facebook or Twitter. And so that's when I decided to take a break off of social media because I was having this extreme sort of conditioning to have a really bad fight or flight response every time I would go into the Internet and into social media apps.

Laci Green [00:40:09] So I still have some of that, but, like, you know, I've taken steps, and I am working toward having a more positive response to social media, but I don't know if I'll ever fully get rid of, like, my heart racing every time I go on Twitter.

Laci Green [00:40:30] That's why I've kind of, like, taken a break from a lot of the topics that draw out really intense people, because I need to, like, give my literal, like, physical system a chance to calm down, I guess, from all of this.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] It's kind of like ptsd, right?

Laci Green [00:40:51] It's like, it feels. Yes. And my therapist that I saw briefly that I'm not seeing anymore, but should, had diagnosed me with PTSD from some of the stuff that happened, not just from social media, but people had made violent physical threats toward me at conferences and threatened to kill me. And then the police, like, it's just this big mess. But, you know, I basically went to a talk, and the police told me they can't ensure that nobody will bring any weapons in.

Laci Green [00:41:23] And then there was a really loud, scary outburst, and I thought someone was gonna, like, shoot up one of the conferences I was at. It's just like, this constant, like, constant stress response that was happening in my body.

Laci Green [00:41:39] You know, no amount of intellectualizing and wanting to go forward could compete with these responses that I was having in my body from these experiences. And so, yeah, I mean, yes, It's Twitter and YouTube, but I think it's just the Internet as a whole. And you guys are right. Like, yes, it's a minority of voices, but on my feed, and in my world, it is not a minority of voices. It is most of the voices. And I'm not sure I or anybody really has the tools to persevere through years of that.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] Yeah, it's brutal. So when did it come to a head where you're like, reaching the pinnacle of your success and you're like, I'm shutting it all down like that. I've reached that point 50 times or more. So how did it culminate for you? Like, when. And what was that like? Of like, oh, my gosh, this is my livelihood. I've built this. I'm real doing really well at it. And so now it's time to shut it all down with who knows what as a. As an alternative. Right?

Laci Green [00:42:50] Yeah. I mean, I've always had other ideas for what I wanted to do, so I didn't feel so lost. It wasn't like, oh, God, this is like the career that I've always wanted. It wasn't it? Kind of.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] So you had some savings, though? Because financially.

Laci Green [00:43:04] Right, Yes, I did have savings and I've continued to work. I work offline. Most of my stuff is offline.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] Like a day job?

Laci Green [00:43:14] No, not a day job. It's like project based.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] Oh, okay, cool.

Laci Green [00:43:18] Yeah. The skills that I have in this sphere in social media, Internet stuff have broad applications, so I have.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] You can do YouTube consulting, for example.

Laci Green [00:43:32] Yes, I have stable work outside of all of this.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Oh, that's great. I love that.

Laci Green [00:43:38] Yeah, well, I saw that coming. I was like, oh, there. Well, first, YouTube demonetized my whole channel. That was in 2017. But I was prepared before that even, because my videos were slowly being, like, demonetized. I saw YouTube becoming a place where it might not be a reliable source of income anymore. And so I, you know, got my insurance policy in line and have never, you know, had to worry about having a roof over my head. So I'm fortunate in that sense. But yeah, I.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Okay, so YouTube demonetize. Why would they. If you're. The videos are up and people are watching them, why would they ever demonetize you?

Laci Green [00:44:22] Because I talk about sex. Yeah, it's the sex stuff.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] Sex positivity. Yeah, YouTube.

Laci Green [00:44:31] YouTube's not a sex positive place. And they demonetized a lot of LGBT stuff and there's a lawsuit going. And it became a battle zone. And I knew that it was going to become a battle zone when that Started happening. I also deliberately, like, planned ahead before I started going on the conservative talk shows because I knew that something was gonna happen with that. Did I expect it to be as explosive and crazy as it was? No, I didn't expect it to be at that level. But I did plan ahead because I knew people are gonna be probably mad. Some people are gonna be mad at me for doing this and who knows what that'll spiral into because Internet.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Yeah. So you, so you thoughtfully develop some side, Some side parallel income streams and career opportunities.

Laci Green [00:45:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] That's so great. I honestly don't. I mean, I've been. I got my PhD in psychology, so I do some, some coaching for couples and individuals, but it's, it's not what I really. I mean, I love it, I love it when I do it, but it's not what I want to do for my full time job. So I.

Laci Green [00:45:52] Do you want to do the podcast full time?

John Dehlin [00:45:54] Well, I am, I do. I've been able to do it full time now for several years, main gig. But that's just the only thing I'm saying is if that, if and when that gets torpedoed, you know what I mean? I don't know. I don't know what I do as a site, as a new career. I don't know. You know, I don't. I didn't get into psychology to become a psychologist. I just wanted to be able to help the people that came to me. Yeah, but I don't want to be a full time psychologist. So I haven't even pursued licensure. So.

Laci Green [00:46:23] That's very noble of you. I think that you have a little bit more protection from all of this because I think that in communities that are more critical about religion tend to have more critical thinking than some of these leftist social movements. Like that isn't really built into the discourse in the way that someone who has really had to grapple with their faith, I think they're more intimately familiar with what dogma and authoritarianism look like and feel like they recognize that more readily and also are able to more like engage more in a more reasonable way with people who disagree with them because they have had to be like, we as leading the church, have had to be that person.

Laci Green [00:47:11] And so I wonder and hope that, you know, I hope nothing ever comes your way that is this kind of storm. But if it does, I would hope that because of the things you talk about and the community that you've cultivated, it might correct its course a little more than some of this other stuff does.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] You Know, I do have amazing. And this isn't me being flattering, but in 2000 and even 2019, the level

Laci Green [00:47:44] of

John Dehlin [00:47:46] effort it takes to leave a religion like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Scientologist. If you can escape the intellectual, emotional, familial and social chains that an orthodox religion like Mormonism, you know, holds you with it, you emerge a pretty. Those people either are pretty amazing before, or they become amazing through that gauntlet of a journey.

Laci Green [00:48:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] And so I do, everywhere I go, when I meet my listeners, it's just like, these are my people. These are. I could. I just want to hang with these people all the time. And. And I. My podcasts are so freaking long that if you're not really into this stuff, you wouldn't bother listening to them. And so that's another thing I've done different is I go long form. Like I. I just finished like a 14 hour series with the guy. So one single interview over three days, 14 hours. Because I just want to go deep. I don't have any patience for sound bites and superficial kind of surface stuff. And yours is deep. So I'm not, I'm not. You know, your economy is way better than mine, but.

Laci Green [00:49:00] Well, I want to be more in the direction that you have taken. Things like smaller community, but deeper dives, more connected community. Because right now I feel like I'm kind of trying to reestablish a community with idm, with indirect message and just trying to find my community online that I used to have before everything got crazy and just have that because. For my own personal pleasure and enjoyment. Because I miss that. I miss having an online community. And I think YouTube, in some ways, that was one of the prices I paid, was the community got too big to really have that same intimate feel. And so, yes, I love meeting people when I'm out on the road or whatever.

Laci Green [00:49:51] I don't necessarily feel like these are my people. With everyone that I've met, part of that is because they're often younger than me. So the audience for my students series before I ended it was often like teenagers, you know, teenagers are not my people.

Laci Green [00:50:15] I want to be their people, but they're not necessarily my people. Right. Like, I want to support them, but I don't think they have the wherewithal or maturity or bandwidth to be in my. To be a support system for me. Um, so finding that again, you know, that's a new journey that I'm on. And I like that journey because I think it goes to a much better place. I Hope it goes to a better place.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Yeah. Wow. So you. So you in what you said two years ago, 2017, you just stopped YouTubing? You just.

Taking a Break and Stepping Back from YouTube

Laci Green [00:50:55] Oh, no, 2017 was when I was like, listen, I need to engage with these conservatives that are constantly making videos about me. Some of them aren't even conservative, but just, like, anti feminist people. Like people from all over the spectrum, really, that were constantly just barraging me with anger. I was like, look, I need to have a way to address these issues publicly. And so I'm gonna go on their channels and, you know, we're gonna debate stuff. And we did. And yeah, that was. That was in 2017. And then the fallout from that was when I decided, fuck this shit on that. I really cannot do this, guys. You. I really can't win. And I'm very sad all the time, so I have to go to my happy place.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] So that was last year.

Laci Green [00:51:53] That was. Yeah, 2018. I was like, okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] So what was that like to just end it?

Laci Green [00:52:04] Well, it was great.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] Really?

Laci Green [00:52:07] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] Hell yeah.

Laci Green [00:52:08] I didn't have to worry about the Internet. I logged off for a year.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] Did you really?

Laci Green [00:52:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:15] You just stopped checking comments and you just. What about emails?

Laci Green [00:52:20] Nada. Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] Really?

Laci Green [00:52:22] Really?

John Dehlin [00:52:23] But that. It seems like that would, like, cause, like, withdraw. Like, Internet withdraw?

Laci Green [00:52:28] No, I mean, this was like a cage I was trying to escape. I didn't have Stockholm syndrome.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] You wanted out?

Laci Green [00:52:36] I wanted out, yeah. And I wanted to be able to create a Internet community that felt more positive for me. Like, I don't feel like. While I still feel like there are things that I want to do and ways that I want to contribute to the world, I also feel like, okay, like, I did a lot and I made a lot of personal sacrifices, so it's okay if now is more about me and my interests. That's how I justified it. And that's why indirect message is maybe so different from other stuff I've done online, because it's more. More about what I think about and what I feel.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] You actually left saying, man, this is going to be great. And you left and you felt great leaving.

Laci Green [00:53:24] Yeah, I felt great leaving, and I felt a little bit tepid about coming back, but since I've been back, I came back online in September.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] Wait, I just have to say, it is. I don't normally swear. Not because I'm, like, opposed to swearing, but I'm still very Mormon. It is so badass for you to be at like, 1.5 million subscribers and to just walk away.

Laci Green [00:53:53] Like, is it?

John Dehlin [00:53:55] Well, I mean, when you don't. From someone who wouldn't understand and you're doing it by choice, I know you're choosing health, which is just awesome, but I can imagine, I mean, my situation is a tiny bit different because I don't think I've gotten near the negativity that you have.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] And in spite of all the horrible things, still the good has way outweighed the bad for me. And so I really like it when a lot of people listen to my stuff. I like it when I feel like I'm making a difference in the world. Like I got into this to make a difference in the world. So I feel like my, I don't want to say ego, but my sense of self esteem or my sense of like feeling good about contributing, my sense of meaning and purpose. It really now is interwoven with my podcast and the workshops and retreats that I do. So if I like walked away from all that, I'd be like, who am I?

John Dehlin [00:54:56] Like, what is my purpose? Why? And if I had to go back just to make money, to make money, I feel kind of broken in that way. I don't think I could ever go work for a software company selling widgets or SKUs or whatever it is. So yeah, for me, I think that'd be super hard. But I don't know. I'm sure I would love it on many levels. So that's why I say, well, keep

Laci Green [00:55:18] in mind, I didn't just like go work in a different industry. I still teach sex ed and I still do a lot of sexual health stuff.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] Oh, okay. Okay.

Laci Green [00:55:27] It's not online. Yeah, yeah. So I still feel all those things. If I had to leave behind the world of sexual health completely and have no involvement, Yes. I would be very lost and would not know where to go next. I have had, I have pondered that question. That's part of why I started going back to school. School to become a nurse practitioner.

Laci Green [00:55:51] And for a while I was on the women's health nurse prac route. And then, you know, kind of like had some doubts or second guessing myself on that decision and started looking more into the PhD academic route. So I've had to think about like, okay, what would my life be without any of this? And I've come up with a few answers to that question, but none of them are so scary to me. I think a lot of what's scary about those life changes is that it's so different and that I would worry that I had made a mistake by walking away being weak, you know, not being strong enough to endure because you

John Dehlin [00:56:46] don't want to let the haters win, Right. You don't want to let the haters win by hating, Right?

Laci Green [00:56:51] Yeah, it's true.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] But if you're not well, you have to walk away.

Laci Green [00:56:57] And I think that there is something that's maybe a little bit toxic about the idea that, you know, you have to keep going in order to prove these people wrong. It sort of keeps you in this trap. And I think I bought into that for a while, but it's like at some point, it's like, no, I don't have to keep going. This feels like an abusive relationship. Do I have to keep going to prove my love to this person who constantly is abusive to me? No. I can walk away and I should walk away. And so I'm going to do what I need to do. Secure myself financially, emotionally and physically and get the fuck out.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] Okay. So your time away was super healthy for you.

Laci Green [00:57:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] And tell us about your non Internet projects that you would want to talk about. So I saw something with MTV, but that was YouTube, right?

Laci Green [00:57:47] Yeah. I would rather not talk about what I do offline.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Okay, that's fine. Okay. But so it's not. It's not something you. So you don't want people like. It's not like you're trying to get business or marketing for any of whatever it is you do. It's something you want to keep private.

Laci Green [00:58:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] That's cool.

Laci Green [00:58:11] I don't want the hate mob to come from my jobs.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] Right.

Laci Green [00:58:15] I tell them then it's. I mean, all the people I work with are very well aware of everything that's happened.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Yeah.

Laci Green [00:58:25] I have. Yeah. Strong relationships with the people that I work with and the projects I work on. And they know me and they know my heart and intentions, and they see that every day.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] You're like, in an Internet witness protection program is what you are. I love that. And there's like a body that's taking care of you and taking your good work, but also like taking an interest in your health and wellbeing.

Laci Green [00:58:51] Yes. I feel very fortunate that I've found this loophole that allows me to do this.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Okay. Because you did. You did say you're still involved in sex education. That's why I was asking about it. Because that. Because obviously I'm like, well, what are you doing? But. But I'm part of.

Laci Green [00:59:06] Part of it is sex ed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Okay, that's great. Okay. Okay.

Laci Green [00:59:11] Not sex ed. So what's that? Part of it is very not sex ed. And I think it's worth noting to anybody who's out there who has a podcast or has a YouTube channel who might be watching. There are so many things you can do that are not YouTube. If you are being driven to madness, there is a lot that those skills are applicable in many ways. You just have to kind of seek it out and figure out where, where the fit is for you. But it does exist. And not being able to do YouTube or something, if they demonetize you or whatever the case may be, it's not the end of the world. There's still more work and things to do.

Advice for Aspiring YouTubers and New Directions

John Dehlin [00:59:48] So let's say some, you know, 19 year old boy or girl comes to you over a latte and they're like, just tell me all that I need to know to become a successful YouTuber. I'm sure you probably have that all the time. Are there things you tell people don't

Laci Green [01:00:04] do it or I do try to, I do try to caution people who are seeking YouTube fame. Why are you doing this? Why do you want this? What are you hoping to get out of it? Because YouTube, only about 1%, maybe less, find real success on YouTube. So you need to really want it and know what your goals are. You know, what are you getting out of it? That is not money. Because there won't be money for a long time probably. You know, most people, it takes a while to monetize. So are you really doing it for the right reasons? A Are you willing to put in all of this free work up front to build on the possibility that you will have something you can monetize later?

Laci Green [01:00:51] Be and I also think that people should, should think about their support systems in their life and think about, you know, the Internet's gonna be shitty to you sometimes. It will be cruel, you will doubt yourself, you will feel worthless and people will make you feel worse than you ever have. Take high school bullying and turn it up 100%. It is gonna be bad.

Laci Green [01:01:15] It comes for everybody. So what are you gonna do then? Are you emotionally prepared? Do you have a support system? You should have a therapist. You have a good friend that you can confide in. You should have people around you that you can rely on because you don't know when it's gonna happen. But you will probably need them at some point.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] Yeah, I could not have survived without my wife, who's amazing. And we've spent three thousands of dollars annually on therapy, marriage therapy.

Laci Green [01:01:45] Sounds like a good experience.

John Dehlin [01:01:47] I'm a therapist. Right. You know, in theory, thousands of dollars individually as a Couple for our children, for our family system. Like, I'm a huge believer in effective coaching or therapy.

Laci Green [01:02:01] That's awesome. I really admire that. I think that is like one of the most important investments you can make, investing in your mental health, especially if you're in a kind of precarious, unstable position. Because that's what podcasting is by nature. Any media thing. It's not stable. It's always a big question mark.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] And you said you've found some good mental health resources, right?

Laci Green [01:02:30] Well, kind of. I've had a doctor who has been a good doctor. I have not found a therapist in la. I had a really great therapist when I lived in Berkeley and I'm kind of thinking about moving back to Berkeley and she's part of it. Like, I need you help. Yeah. So I've had good therapists in the past, but have not found.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] She doesn't do like Skype or zoom,

Laci Green [01:02:56] you know, that's a good question. And I should. She's kind of old school, you know, she's older. That doesn't mean she's not going be to savvy. But I never saw that like potential in her practice maybe though.

John Dehlin [01:03:10] Okay, well, tell us about your. Tell us about your book and tell us about. I assume you still want people to buy your book and tell us about your amazing podcast, indirect message.

Laci Green [01:03:25] Yeah, well, I wrote the book. It's a sex ed book. I saw it as kind of like the final, the master project of Sex Plus. So there's all these videos and the book really allowed me to go deeper on some of those topics and sexuality and shame and healthy relationships, things like that.

Laci Green [01:03:46] And I think it's a really good resource. I'm really proud of it. I think it's good for young adults for and for older adults who are more experienced, I think they can still. There's stuff that's not just like here's how your penis works or whatever in there. There's stuff to think about. So I tried to cater it to everyone.

Laci Green [01:04:08] And then the podcast, yeah, the podcast is more about the Internet and like how the Internet is changing everything, but mostly our social relationships. So I've been focusing this season. I have been looking really at the big picture stuff, you know, about social media mobs, about the ways that people are just googling their illnesses and the rise of the anti vax movement, memes and kind of how meme culture has affected politics, all kinds of stuff. That's big picture. But my hope is that in the next season, if it gets renewed, which I'LL probably, you know, I got to figure it out. But I want to talk more about some of these more specific issues in relationships and sexuality as they relate to the Internet. So starting big and hoping to distill.

John Dehlin [01:05:02] I love it. Yeah, it is a really smart and important podcast.

Laci Green [01:05:07] Thank you. That's really sweet of you.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] And I love it. And listeners need to check it out. Lacygreen TV podcast where you can find indirect message with Laci Green. And it's kind of more highly produced, kind of like Radiolab or whatever. Right. You've got.

Laci Green [01:05:25] Yeah, my inspiration is like, yeah, it's more npr. Yeah, let's say. But we'll see. It's evolving and figuring it out as I go. I've only done four, so, you know, I'm sure that where you're at now with your podcast is in a different place than the first four.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] Well, I did have a 14 year head start. Yeah.

Laci Green [01:05:50] I mean, it's a few podcasts, you know, done a few.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] That's awesome. Okay. Is there anything else I didn't ask you that you really want to say or, you know, anything else we didn't cover? And then I always like to have you just share whatever final kind of thoughts. Oh, really quickly, just back to the Mormon angle. Do you keep tabs on the Mormon church and, you know, it's latest profit, its latest policy changes? Like, are you at all plugged into what Mormonism is doing?

Laci's Family, Mormonism, and Current Views

Laci Green [01:06:28] I'm plugged in, yeah. Yeah. My family is still Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] So your two siblings are still Mormon?

Laci Green [01:06:34] Oh, no, my extended family and my dad. My siblings are not Mormon anymore, my mom is not Mormon. But I definitely keep track of what they're doing and what's going on. And it's not necessarily like in my direct area of focus, but yeah, it's a part of my life and I feel like I need to know what the word is. I'm a little slower on the uptake though, you know, like I get updated every few months.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] Yeah. Things that are happening instead of swimming in it every day, all day.

Laci Green [01:07:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] So as you've looked at like the church becoming more transparent in its history and rolling back the November 2015 policy around, you know, excluding children of LGBT couples and all that, if you look at how it's tried to be more open about women just making sure church shorter, like, that's my view. Like, whoa. The church is actually starting to listen and make some positive changes and it still has a long way to go. How do you see Mormonism in 2019? Do you have Is it, like, worse than ever? Is it like you're hopeful? Is it, like, apathetic? Is it, like a train wreck? How do you view Mormonism now?

Laci Green [01:07:56] Mormonism? Well, you know, I'm not the biggest fan. So

John Dehlin [01:08:03] what are the biggest things you would like? What are your biggest concerns and things you'd want to see changed in the Mormon Church? Yeah.

Laci Green [01:08:13] God, why are you asking me this, John?

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Because this is Mormon stories.

Laci Green [01:08:19] I mean, can we change the whole religion? I mean, socially, I think it would be great if they started having more female leaders. Having female leaders, period. That would be great. And allowing girls to achieve their potential and be who they want to be outside of the church. You know, loosening up the leash a little bit on young adults and especially on young women, and maybe not being homophobic and transphobic and awful to our LGBT youth. That is. That is unforgivable in my book. So that's why I'm like, eh, you know, the whole thing's trash. Just throw it away. But maybe if they were better in that respect, I would have a different feeling about it.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Not a lot of love lost. Yeah, yeah. People in their 20s are just leaving in droves. Like, people in their 20s and 30s are just hemorrhaging. The church is completely hemorrhaging entire generations right now. Really? Oh, yeah, for sure. And that's not just Mormonism. That's Christianity in the Western world. Right.

Laci Green [01:09:38] Organized religion is. This is not its heyday, let's say.

John Dehlin [01:09:43] Okay.

Laci Green [01:09:43] The Internet has changed a lot.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] So I saw that you sometimes attend a Unitarian Universalist church. Is that right?

Laci Green [01:09:50] That is, right, yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] So how have you, like, how have you built up a sense of identity, morality, spirituality, community without. Without Mormonism, or have you. Are you still searching for those things?

Laci Green [01:10:05] I'm still a deeply immoral person, so, no. I think that being a good person, for the most part, it's not that hard. You know, do no harm is the basic principle I operate on. Yeah. Be kind, do no harm.

Laci Green [01:10:22] The Unitarian churches, I would say, you know, as far as organized religions go, the best one I've ever found, I really love, you know, the one I go to it. I don't go very often, but when I do have, like, a, you know, Sunday morning free, I pop in. They're always talking about different moral philosophy, fees. It's very queer positive, very, you know, woman positive. And, you know, the leaders of the church are not just a bunch of dudes. It's a lot of people working together, as it should be. So I like that. And they're all very kind. It's also, I think there's a lot of families that go to the one I go to.

Laci Green [01:11:02] So I think it's like a good support system. I think that there is like a real need for parents to have community around them. It's really hard raising kids now. I think it's just like, really we don't support parents very well. And the loss of organized religion is a real loss on that front because, you know, all the things I have to say about Mormonism, that all aside, they helped my mom when she gave birth to my brother. They brought us meals that we always had, like a place to go. There was always people there, you know, to help you move, to help you when you're sick, in the hospital.

Laci Green [01:11:40] Whatever it was, they are always there. And that's beautiful. I think that's the most beautiful thing about Mormon religion. And I wish that more communities were kind of trying to replicate that. And I think some communities are. There's a community in la. Gosh, I forget the name of it, but it's like an atheist church.

John Dehlin [01:12:02] It's probably Sunday assembly.

Laci Green [01:12:04] Sunday assembly, yes. And I love that. I've gone to that a couple times and the Unitarian Church a couple times. So I think that's their strength, is really for families.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you heard me talk about this thrive idea at the very beginning.

Laci Green [01:12:22] Yeah, I was going to ask you about that offline, but I would love to go to that. That sounds amazing.

John Dehlin [01:12:28] Oh, well, we'd love to have you. Yeah, I'll tell you all about it. But it's just I've been a part of Sunday assembly a little bit. There's another one called Oasis. For the past 14 years, I've been trying to create or at least support an experiment on secular post Mormon communities here in Utah and around the world. So we're trying. It's hard to get people to give up their Sundays. But even more importantly, why should people give up their Sundays just because religion did that doesn't mean that's the. The right model. But then what is the right model if you don't have fear, guilt and shame and exclusive truth and sort of like moral superiority to bind people together and to get people to give money and time?

John Dehlin [01:13:12] Then how do you motivate people to want to commit and sacrifice for a community when they could stay home and sip a latte? It's really hard to compete with latte and sleeping in and brunch. Yeah.

Laci Green [01:13:27] Well, if my experience has taught me anything, it's that People love to come together over activities and things that, you know, give them a little break from real life. So, you know, potlucks are always fun because, you know, it's fun to have dinner with people and feel like you're having a family dinner, but also just activities, getting outside. I don't know how to motivate people to get off their sofas. Like, good luck with that. But I think in general, offering something that is a little different from the draw of day to day definitely gets me out of the house.

Thrive Beyond Mormonism and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Yeah. Well, we'd love to have you at Thrive. We'd love to talk to you about what we're doing, listeners. ThriveBeyondMormonism.com is the website.

Laci Green [01:14:12] Cool.

John Dehlin [01:14:12] That's all positive. But November 17th, if you want to come, we've got a thousand people. We've never had an event with over 300 people. We've got a thousand people signed up for this event.

Laci Green [01:14:21] So that's amazing. Congrats.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Yeah, it's fun. Okay, so, Laci Green, I want to end with this. In addition to whatever sort of like monologue or prologue or epilogue or whatever it is you want to offer, I want to tell you that you are a light, you are a source of wisdom. You have done a lot of good in the world for a crud, crap ton of people. And I was sad when I didn't know the background. I thought you left just sort of like broken and sad and unhappy. I'm thrilled to know you left to pursue healing and that's exactly what's happened. And I'm also thrilled for as long as you are willing and able, that you're still willing to share your light and your wisdom and your energy and your passion with us. Because we need you and we need people like you for as long as it's healthy for you to share.

Laci Green [01:15:22] That is so sweet. Thank you. That means a lot. That's why I'm back. And I think there are good people online like yourself, you know, your community, communities like this, all over the web, they're out there. And so it's good to be reminded.

Laci Green [01:15:42] And I'm really, really grateful that you invited me to join you. Yeah. As far as, like, closing thoughts, I don't know. I think. I don't know that there's anything that I can say to your community specifically that you don't already know or aren't already thinking about.

Laci Green [01:16:04] But I think if my story can serve as, you know, to be helpful in any way, like if you're getting down the Internet's really getting you down and you're up against a lot and you feel really defeated. I would just reinforce that it's okay to take a step back and take a break and do what you need to do to take care of yourself. You know, if you are not in a good place, you can't be your best. You can't do your best.

Laci Green [01:16:37] And it's really scary if you feel like there's something that you've built, you know, like my channel or whatever. Yes, it's scary to walk away from the things that we've been working on. But self preservation should come first. It is very important.

Laci Green [01:16:52] And there are lots of other things that are out there, other opportunities that might come to you that never would have if you hadn't kind of strayed from the path that you feel like you're supposed to be on or have to be on.

Laci Green [01:17:05] I don't know if that makes any sense outside of our context, but it's been very impactful to me and I think has made me a stronger person and, you know, has led to great things in my life. Not necessarily career wise, but the best relationship of my life and being in a positive mental health space, building my friendships, focusing on those relationships as well. So there's a lot of good that can come from that. So take care of yourselves. I think that's my biggest lesson learned online.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] I love it. But I also love that you have the courage to speak up and to try and make a difference. And you did make a huge difference. And you are making a huge difference. And those are people I have a special heart for people that have a creative idea and they go for it. And you made a mark and you'll always have my respect for that.

Laci Green [01:18:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] And you keep it going.

Laci Green [01:18:04] Keep it going.

John Dehlin [01:18:06] Yeah. Listeners are all, you know, Angela writes love learning. She wrote, agree with John. It was great to see you again. Amy writes, love learning about you, Lacey. Ivana writes, Lacy, you have a good heart. Lots of people sending you love on the Facebook livestream. That's very, very sweet. Yeah.

Laci Green [01:18:26] Really wonderful. Thank you for this nice little boost to the beginning of my week. It's. Your community is very sweet. It's nice to know there are kind communities online.

John Dehlin [01:18:37] Yeah, I have a super cool. Yeah, we have a super cool community. If we can ever be of any assistance to you, if I can. If we can. You've got us in your corner for sure.

Laci Green [01:18:47] Thank you. Well, hopefully I'll see you again. If you guys are doing conferences and stuff, I'm there all Right, Sweet. Sounds fun.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] So I will reach out to you offline and we'll sync up on that.

Laci Green [01:18:57] Cool. That sounds amazing.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] The podcast is lacygreen TV podcast. The podcast is called Indirect Message with Laci Green. It really is. And I just also have to say, like, we need. Like, I've had to. I'm sorry, I'm just saying one more thing. Like, the being in the post Mormon space can be really toxic and polarizing because obviously the church does good, but it also does harm. We've already covered that. But then to try and fight against the church, even if you're trying to do good, it can create so much toxicity just in all this feeling like you're going to war. And when you think about the current political climate and the divisiveness in politics, there's just so much war. And. And what I love about what you're doing, and I think what you've always done, is you're trying to elevate the discourse.

Laci Green [01:19:56] Yeah. That takes all of us.

John Dehlin [01:19:59] We are effed if we don't elevate the discourse. Am I not right?

Changing How We Discuss Politics Online

Laci Green [01:20:03] Yeah, no. 100%. That is one of the most pressing issues of our time right now is we really need to change the way that we discuss things online and offline because it's bleeding into offline spaces. And I worry about what does 10, 15 years of this kind of decay look like? It's not pretty. And it takes a critical mass of people really taking a stand against that and, you know, persisting through getting shit or, you know, being, I don't know, talked down to for trying to say, hey, let's be civil, let's be respectful. Let's acknowledge the humanity of all people in this space.

Laci Green [01:20:47] Let's not reduce people to simplified ideas or, you know, simplified political perspectives. We are, first and foremost people. It's very easy to forget. So, yeah, I'm sure the ex Mormon stuff, I mean, I had a little taste of it, you know, way back before. I know that that potential exists. But you doing what you do and providing space like this, I think is one of the most powerful things there is to overcome that.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] Yeah. Well, thank you. And I really was inspired by Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X, even early on. And Angela writes, social justice work is going to war. And I agree on the one hand, but I also, you know, someone like Gandhi and even mlk, some of the. They weren't. They didn't speak in. Yes, their work was polarizing and divisive, but the rhetoric didn't seem to be to me. I mean. Yeah. To say the black man should be able to vote or the black woman should be able to not have acts of violence against them. Yeah. That made people angry and was polarizing. But there was something very respectful about Martin Luther King's discourse and Gandhi's discourse, and I want to strive towards that, you know.

Laci Green [01:22:07] Yeah. Elevating the discourse. Well, I mean, they were under incredible threat. It's just. Yeah. It's crazy. But, yeah, I think those are good role models and people to try to apply to our modern. Modern chaos.

John Dehlin [01:22:22] Yeah. Well, keep it up. Laci Green. You're a gift, and you're loved by so many. And even though they're haters, the lovers outnumber the haters by the thousands.

Laci Green [01:22:37] Well, thank you. And likewise. Keep moving.

Farewell and Final Thanks

John Dehlin [01:22:40] All right, all right. I'll reach out to you separately. Thank you, Lacey. You're awesome.

Laci Green [01:22:45] Thanks, John. Thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [01:22:47] Thanks, all our listeners.

Laci Green [01:22:47] Have a good week.

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