Introduction and Episode Overview

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Jake Abhau [00:00:36] Lead kindly light a myth encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 17, 2017, and we are having another episode in our series on conversations with general authorities. We've already done one with Trevor Hagen and then we've also done one with Lance Miles. But today's episode is going to be with the abhows. The abhows Jake and Meg are returning to Mormon Stories. If any of you are hardcore Mormon Stories fans, you'll know that episodes 508 through 510 were about Meg and Jake Abhow and their wonderful, beautiful son John. And just talking about how they support their gay son and dealing with faith crisis and finding their voice as LGBT allies. It's a great episode. It's on video. I think my cousin Daniel Parkinson recorded it and it's worth checking out. But we have Jake and Meg returning to Mormon Stories because they have a story to tell us about a meeting they had with the general authority. And the name of that general authority is D. Todd Christofferson. And before we dive into the interview, I'll just sort of, I want to kind of state my intention up front and then Meg and Jake, you guys can add to it. The thing that I just wanted to say is our intent here is to within the church, we're obviously a patriarchy. And within this patriarchy, first presidency members, apostles and general authorities rule the organization. And it is widely known within Mormonism and sort of culturally, absolutely an expectation that these general authorities have special relationships with the divine. And so not only are they leaders, but they're viewed as not only ecclesiastical leader, ecclesiastical leaders, bureaucratic leaders, but they also are viewed as spiritual leaders. And so, and, but unfortunately they're rarely on the record. They don't do a lot of meetings with media or the press. They don't go off script. You may hear from them at a state conference or general conference, but you don't get to hear from Them to kind of gather the information you might need to live your life. And so I. And we think it's important to kind of just have this open discussion about why general authorities, what do they say, what do they know, how powerful or not powerful are they, how knowledgeable versus non knowledgeable are they, how helpful are they versus not helpful until they're willing to kind of be a little bit more open and transparent in their thoughts, their beliefs, their policies, their advice, etc. So this is not to throw anyone, including D. Todd Christofferson, under the bus. My guess is everybody loves the guy, but it is to shine more light into Mormonism and to give more transparency. Now, Meg and Jake, what would you guys add or take away from that opener as it relates to your intentions for doing this interview?

Meg and Jake's Background and Church Doubts

Jake Abhau [00:04:07] Well, I think you just said it right there at the end is transparency. I mean, ultimately, for me personally, my probably biggest undoing with the church was the lack of transparency. Once you start turning over stones and learning more and more. And as you'll. As we'll talk about a little bit, we had some conversations in our meeting that I was like, oh my gosh, I wish this was said to the general public or to the masses. And so for three or four years, we've kind of talked about it in very, very small private circles. But he said so much that could make some major, major change if only it was out there in public. And I wish there was more transparency in the church. And so that's. For me, that's kind of why I'm here.

Meg Abhau [00:04:53] I was a little nervous and I kept going flip flopping whether to talk about it in public or not. Just a little nervous, just to respect my relationship with my friend Tom, his brother, and. But I was. I think it is an important conversation to have. I think there should be more transparency, especially with people who have such influence in the LGBT community, specifically, like, that's. So I have. I hope my motivations are pure and I hope that it's helpful and useful to some people.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] Beautiful. Okay, so we released the interview with you guys on Mormon stories back in November 2014, but why don't you guys give just like a one or two minute recap of your story? However much you think is useful, give a recap of your story to just kind of catch people up to the date and time. When was the actual meeting? Do you guys know the approximate date of the meeting with D. Todd?

Meg Abhau [00:06:00] September 2013. It was right before affirmation that year. It was our first affirmation that we had Ever attended

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Barb and Steve Young. Were they at that one? Was that the Barb and Steve Young cab is there with you guys?

Jake Abhau [00:06:14] Yeah. And John. And John had come out. Our John had come out in March of that earlier that year. So it's in that same first year.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Okay.

Jake Abhau [00:06:25] Prior to that, a month before that, we were, you know, as it says, tbm, all in, kind of with the church.

Meg Abhau [00:06:32] Actually, it was the one with Benji Schwimmer. Barb and Steve were the next year.

Jake Abhau [00:06:37] They were there, too.

Meg Abhau [00:06:38] Oh, they were.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] Yeah, I think they were both there. Cool. Okay, so just for the sake of those who tell us really briefly, kind of your story as it led up to 2013,

Meg Abhau [00:06:51] do you want me other questions?

John Dehlin [00:06:52] Yeah, go ahead, Meg.

Meg Abhau [00:06:54] I was born and raised in the church. I have 10 sisters and six brothers and I. My parents are converts. They've divorced. So we have a. We have a blended family. But, yeah, I was. I went inactive a little bit as a teenager. More like teenage angst, not really disbelief. So that was a lot of shame and guilt there. But then I came back and I was all in. And we raised John in the church. Just basic Mormon family. I mean, I was. I was in Young Women's, and I had every single calling from secretary to young women's president and everyone in between. And it was always the running joke of, like, if we moved to a ward, how quickly I would be called to Young Women's. I literally could do nothing else. But, yeah, I just was just super in. And.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] And was it. Was. It was Arizona. Was it also North Carolina? Where were you guys?

Jake Abhau [00:07:48] We got married in bountiful in 98, and then we moved shortly after to North Carolina. Been in Arizona, back to North Carolina. We're back here in Arizona now. But ultimately, North Carolina was probably the bulk of our church attendance and activity

John Dehlin [00:08:07] where we live in in 2013.

Jake Abhau [00:08:09] Yeah, that's where we were when John came out. In Arizona, in North Carolina.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Oh, okay. Okay. All right, Jay, tell us your background really quick.

Jake Abhau [00:08:18] Just real brief. I've got one brother, and I lost my father to cancer when I was 13. But one of the last things he wanted me to do was go on a mission. So it was never even really a choice for me. It was just always this thing I was going to do. And probably my biggest thing growing up with the church is I always had that very, very rock solid testimony. I think it really happened after my dad died.

Meg Abhau [00:08:45] I had.

Jake Abhau [00:08:46] You know, when you're a kid, you have the plan of salvation, and that's the easiest that's the easiest lesson to teach in primary are young men's. But I really, really believed it. All those little, you know, the little cutout things that you stick up on the wall and as you kind of go through. And it really spoke to my testimony and I. And after my dad died, I just really strongly, strongly believed and never, never really doubted up until. I mean, not even really at all until kind of had that crack after John came out. But, you know, went on a mission to Montreal, 93 and to 95. So. But that's basically in a nutshell.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Okay, cool. So just tell us briefly about John growing up and his background leading up to 2013.

A Brother Comes Out: Family Reactions

Meg Abhau [00:09:36] I would say John was pretty Peter Priesthood. He was really super into church and never really complained about going ever to any of. I don't know, like, he never asked if he could not go to church. He was just. See, he's an only child. And so it's just the three pack of us. And. So, I don't know, we always had open communication and I think he was pretty typical. But one time, one time, this was like maybe a year before he came out, he was 12 and like Mr. Deacon Peter Priest had everything. And somebody was giving a testimony and testimony meeting and they were saying how their mom was so awesome, which made him so awesome, or, you know, their mom held to the iron rod, and that's why I'm so awesome. And that's kind of like what his testimony was about was like the faith of his mother made him so awesome. And John just like looked up at me and he had like a little bit of tears in his eyes and he was like, mom, will you please hold to the iron rod so I can be awesome too? I was like, honey, you are awesome. But, yeah, that's basically how things were. But interestingly enough. So that's why when he came out and I was like, okay, the church is not safe. That was my instant thought. It was like, instant.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] Did you either of you suspect it before he came out at age 13?

Meg Abhau [00:11:07] I didn't.

Jake Abhau [00:11:08] Yeah. I thought, you know, I mean, without going too heavily down the stereotype road, I mean, I mean, there are certain things that made me suspicious. It's not the right word, but maybe just kind of wonder. But the year prior to that, you know, kids are kids, I guess, and express themselves differently. But about a year prior, he started talking about a girl, a very specific girl, and how, like, he might want to be with her, you know, and that kind of thing. And at that point, so for the previous year it was unsuspecting, I guess. I was like, oh, maybe he grew out of that little thing or whatever.

Meg Abhau [00:11:46] Yeah. My brothers used to tease me. I don't know why. It just never crossed my mind. I just thought people are just who they are and, like, why. It doesn't matter. Like, why do we all have to fit in this manly box? But my brothers used to say, don't let them play with dolls. You're gonna make them gay, or whatever. They would just. Stuff like that, you know, obviously homophobic things. And I would be like, just because John's favorite color is pink and he likes to play with dolls and he likes to dress up like Tinkerbell doesn't mean he's gay.

Jake Abhau [00:12:13] No, gay is a choice.

Meg Abhau [00:12:15] No, that was sarcasm, people. So, anyway, I just was. For me, I was like, john's just John. And I don't know. What? I don't know. But actually, a few months before he came out, my sister's boyfriend had. They were, like, looking at rings and thinking about getting engaged or whatever, but he came out as gay. And I was like, that was kind of. I don't know, just a moment where I could really think about that, like, what that means. And I told John, you know, they're not going to really be getting married anymore, and this is why he's gay. And I had never talked to John about gay people and. Or what that means. And he just kind of leaned back in the chair and said, mom, you know what I think is wrong with gay people? And I was like, oh, my gosh, what have I taught him? I was so nervous. And I. And I said. I said, what? And he goes, absolutely nothing. And I was like, you're right. There's like, we love Andy, and he has this super hard road, and we're gonna be here for him. And I was all like, I'm praying for Andy. But I was so grateful that John didn't. But somehow he hadn't absorbed those negative messages.

Jake Abhau [00:13:29] And John didn't know at that time that he was gay. He had no clue, as we talked about in our other podcast.

Meg Abhau [00:13:36] But, yeah, he probably had some clues anyway. He literally was like, I saw two guys kissing. That makes sense to me. Why does that make sense to me? I think I might be gay. So then he Googled how to tell if you're gay, and he took a couple of quizzes, and then he talked to one of his friends, and then he talked to. And he actually reached out to Andy, and he kind of did a little bit of research, and then he googled 101 ways to come out. Like, this all happened within a week. And then he played a game of Hangman with me, and that's how he came out. And he was like, wow, I think I'm gay. Yeah, I'm gay. I need to tell my mom.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] Awesome. Okay, so what was your life like between that early. Early 2013 day when he. 2013, right where he comes out and that fall affirmation? Just tell us in one minute kind of how that affected the family.

Jake Abhau [00:14:32] Yeah, it was hard. It was really, really hard, I think, to say it, you know, in a minute. You know, we were going at different paces. I mean, Meg was like, it's my son. It felt like, I guess it was, it's my son of the church. And she's like, I'm all in with my son. And kind of the church was left by the wayside, and I had to. I had to go a lot slower, I guess, and, like, uncover every last kind of nook and cranny of the gospel and study and every. Every little thing. And Meg was like, that doesn't matter to me. This is all about my kid. And so the. Yeah, that summer was really difficult. I like, to the analogy, I kind of have. It's like we were going. You know, we were basically in a boat going from point A to point B. And Meg's boat has all these holes in it, but she just booking it down to the end to get there. And I'm, like, going really, really slow, and I have to, like, kind of patch up every single hole. And it took.

Meg Abhau [00:15:27] Stay in the boat.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:15:29] Yeah. I had to fix everything and make sure everything was right, because I was like, if I'm going to, you know, kind of leave this religion or, you know, not believe it or whatever, which I don't think is a choice anyway, but I had to make sure, you know?

Meg Abhau [00:15:43] Yeah. And I'm like, what the heck is wrong with you? Catch up. I was so frustrated because I'm like, it's our salvation. And I was like, who cares? It's our kid. It was. It was.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] That's hard.

Jake Abhau [00:15:52] Hard. It's really, really hard.

Meg Abhau [00:15:54] Yeah, it was really rough. And not being on the same page for, like, the first time ever. Yeah. And. And I was. I was like, whoa. Okay, so I might have to choose here. Like, I was thinking if literally. Literally John comes before everyone and myself included. Like. And at the time, I was like, all right, buddy, if you don't catch up, like, this is gonna be scary. I don't Know what to do here.

Jake Abhau [00:16:19] It takes years, really. I mean, we got through the really hard part of it, but it really takes years that you kind of have to develop a new identity. You're not who you were.

Meg Abhau [00:16:28] Yeah, it was hard having a gay kid. That wasn't the hard part. The hard part was, like, what that does to your testimony or what that does to your beliefs. And what. All of a sudden, like, as soon as I walked through those church doors the first Sunday after he came out, I just, like, everything went dark. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I just walked into the. Like, I just walked into the enemy territory. It felt like enemy territory instantly.

Jake Abhau [00:16:52] You felt the spirit the week before, and then you walk in that way. Nothing has changed, except your kid's gay. And you haven't. Your beliefs haven't changed or anything really, at that point. But you walk in there and suddenly you just. It feels. Yeah, it felt terrible. Felt like the worst place to be.

Meg Abhau [00:17:09] We both felt that because, like, we're sitting in sacrament, and I looked at him and I was like, we can't come back.

Jake Abhau [00:17:14] It shocked me.

Meg Abhau [00:17:15] Yeah. And he goes, you're right.

Jake Abhau [00:17:16] It shocked me.

Meg Abhau [00:17:17] Yeah, we can't come back. That's just how we felt. I was like, I'm not gonna go hang out in places that aren't safe for my kid. And it felt unsafe. And for me, I was. I just kind of didn't realize, you know, the gay Mormon story, I hadn't looked into it too much. I didn't think about it too much. I didn't think. You know, I just thought, yeah, Mormonism doesn't really work for you if you're gay. And I guess you have to leave, and that's fine. You know, it's not for everyone. I just didn't think, like, hurtful and painful that would be. You know, like, you're faced with it, and unfortunately, that's what it took.

Jake Abhau [00:17:53] A lot of conversations with Daniel Parkinson right at the beginning, and he was. I was probably saying some. Just what I would deem now as just some terrible things, you know, and he was. He was so patient and so, like, just so great and understanding. I mean, initially, I was probably, you know, our kid comes out like, okay, he'll be celibate, blah, blah, blah. And Meg's like, no way. And so it took me, you know, I had to learn. I felt like I learned quickly, but I mean, really quickly, within a week.

Meg Abhau [00:18:22] But, yeah, I had no patience. I was like, catch up, buddy. Yeah. Anyway, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] No, no, that's Great. So how did you talk about what led to you being able to get a meeting with Elder Christofferson? How'd that happen?

Discovering Tom Christofferson and Seeking a Meeting

Jake Abhau [00:18:39] So I had heard of Tom Kristofferson, heard that there was an apostle out there that had a gay brother, and me being kind of where I was in the church, this was probably April or May, so this was, you know, early still, and I was still, like, holding on, trying to everything I could to believe this faith and stay who I was. And I'd heard that he had this gay brother, and I was like, oh, that is awesome. I would love to talk to him or know him or meet him. And so.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And if I could just add. And this. I'll be talking about this. I'm not asking you to talk about it. But when I learned about Tom Kristofferson, I also learned that he had a gay partner that he lived with, but he was active in his ward. And so at the time, what Tom Kristofferson represented was that maybe you could be gay and Mormon and faithful, and so you didn't have to choose. And that's what Tom represented to me at the time.

Jake Abhau [00:19:38] And live a life of not being alone?

John Dehlin [00:19:40] Yeah. Because my research for my dissertation showed that of all the bad decisions you could make, celibacy was actually the worst of all possible decisions. Worse than trying to change your sexual orientation? It was that bad. And so I just didn't see that as a viable option for most people. And so to see. To find an apostle's brother that was living with a man as if they were married and faithful, I was like, he's our savior. You know, Same.

Meg Abhau [00:20:12] And I had read all of your research, and, I mean, I basically read. I didn't sleep for, like, two weeks, so I was totally aware of the whole celibacy situation. I didn't want that for John either. But then Jake found Tom, and like you, I was like, oh, wow, that's so helpful.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] And so I interrupted. I interrupted. You learned about Tom.

Jake Abhau [00:20:33] I didn't know anything about you, John. You weren't on my radar or. I didn't know anything about any of that.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] That's okay.

Meg Abhau [00:20:38] John and I were emailing within, like, hours of my John coming out.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] Yeah. Yeah, that was great.

Jake Abhau [00:20:45] Yeah. So ultimately, I kind of Facebook stalked him a little bit, and somebody had said that he's, like, the nicest guy on the planet, and he is. He's definitely in the top one or two. And so I friended him on Facebook. He accepted right away. Then I messaged him. I was like, hey, my name's Jake, blah, blah, blah. Just kind of gave a quick introduction. He was just the greatest person. And we just kind of communicated back and forth through Facebook, I don't know, three to four times a week, probably just checking in with each other fairly regularly. I kind of felt like I had this friendship quite quickly, and I was asking him tons of questions, and he was so gracious and just being so open. And I'm just this person that knows nothing. I'm probably said a lot of offensive things as I was starting to learn. And anyway, I felt like I made this friend very quickly. And then he actually, he told me his story a little bit. And we had had. We started a blog when John came out, which got. It had about take out about 10,000 hits in the very first day that we started it because it was our coming out letter. And it went to, like, pflag, their homepage and things like that. And so we were. We realized, oh, crap, we're gonna have to, like, keep this thing going. But we're both kind of not. We're too lazy to kind of do it. And so anyway.

Meg Abhau [00:22:11] Oh, no. We were just like, what do we.

Jake Abhau [00:22:13] What I know. And we didn't know anything.

Meg Abhau [00:22:15] And people were like, asking us to say things.

Jake Abhau [00:22:17] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:22:18] We're like, who are we?

Jake Abhau [00:22:19] So I asked Tom if he would share his story because he's like, yeah, I've never really told my story in print or whatever. And so he wrote up his whole story, you know, and put it on our blog. And it was really, really cool. And they talked about his partner 17 years. And, you know, I'll let Tom can go into that. But ultimately, we built this friendship. And then. And then I don't know the timeframe, sometime within the next month, he messaged me and he goes, hey, so I was talking to my brother last night, Todd, and I was like, yeah, I figured that was the brother you were talking about. And he said, and we were talking about you, your family. Like, you guys came up. And Tom had told his brother, Elder Christofferson, that, you know, told him some of our history, some of our. What we'd written about in our blog about our coming out.

Meg Abhau [00:23:18] I shared our coming out letter.

Jake Abhau [00:23:20] Yeah, I can't remember exactly if Todd read our coming out letter or if it was just shared through Tom, but the point is, Tom mentioned to me that Todd Kristofferson was intrigued about how young Mormon kids were identifying as gay and being, like, open about it, because it wasn't really a thing, if you will. I Mean, there certainly are examples, but John came out and was like, I'm gay. It's cool. There's no big deal. Which was a little bit unheard of even four years ago. And so Todd was interested and Tom said, and he'd love to ask you guys some questions. And that was it. And if anybody listening to this, who leaves the church and has their and still talks to people that are in the church, all you want more than anything is for people to ask you questions. You want them, you want to be understood, you know, And I think what you get so many times is people just telling you how you're wrong or telling you this, that or the other. And nobody seems to really ask. And so hearing that from an apostle, if you will, was a really. For me, it was a really, really big deal. And I was excited to have that opportunity to kind of share our thoughts or our experiences. And so that where it was set up. And then a couple months later, we found out about Affirmation, and we knew we were going to go and Tom was going to go and his brother was going to be there. And the short of it is, Tom just sent me a message and he's like, hey, we're all going to be an affirmation. My brother's going to be there. Do you want to meet the day before, the day after? And we said, sure. And then he set it up.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Now, Meg, did you have any interactions with Tom before meeting with Todd? And then also, what was it like for you to find out you might be able to talk to an apostle?

Meg Abhau [00:25:03] Oh, you were believing.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] You were totally. You had lost your faith completely, right?

Meg Abhau [00:25:09] Yeah, like, basically in a matter of moments, within a little bit of dawn coming out. But.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] So, Jake, you must have been stoked and hopeful, right?

Jake Abhau [00:25:21] Yeah, I kind of played with percentages. I mean, it was, you know, in my believing, I think at my most believing, I was in, you know, I mean, faith is not sure knowledge. Right. And so I was going just kind of going down, like, okay, Now I'm an 80% believer, 70%, 60%, you know, and I'm trying to hang on. And meeting with Elder Christofferson was that last, really that last hope for me of like, just hanging on and hoping and just. I've never prayed or fasted more in my entire life than I did probably the month before meeting with him because I wanted it so badly to be true.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] Still, that's so powerful now for you, Meg, not believing anymore. That is a totally different meaning to meet with an apostle, right? What was that. What was that like for you?

Meg Abhau [00:26:07] Yeah, I had an agenda. I'll be honest about that. I was. I was. I was hopeful for Dave, too, that he would get what he needed. Because I was. Even though I wanted him to be on the same page with me about John, I still was supportive of him wanting to be in the church. So I kind of was keeping these secret hopes to myself that I could, like, all right, I'm going to change things, and I'm going to hopefully educate him just about things that I had been learning. You know, for instance, the suicide rates in Utah, particularly the throwaway kids in Cache Valley. Just this whole just situation that I saw that I felt like he could help with. So I was. I. I kind of went in as an agenda. Just. I just wanted to educate.

Jake Abhau [00:26:55] Yeah, we didn't have any questions for him, really. We weren't.

Meg Abhau [00:26:58] Well, you wanted to get something from him. But I wanted.

Jake Abhau [00:27:03] He would say, well, yeah, I. I just remember thinking. I just remember thinking is, you're gonna meet with apostle. What do you ask? Right. And I'd asked other people that question. But ultimately we weren't meeting with him because we wanted to meet with him. Him to gain insight. Like, if it was for us. We went into it thinking, he wants. He wants information from us.

Meg Abhau [00:27:25] What is it like to be a teenager? And I was thinking, you know, he doesn't have any guidance. There's no. There's no sense of purpose. There's no, you know, for the strength of youth for gays or, you know, and I. What about state dances? Why I'd want him to dance with a boy? Like, why can't he be Mormon? And. And if that's what he wanted and be accepted. Like, he can't even hold a boy's hand. He can't even go on a date with a boy. That's just ridiculous to me how stringent it is. And the rules are for the gates. It's like, shut it all down. There's no leeway. So I was kind of. I just wanted to. Maybe I was hopeful that I would get some sort of insight that things were changing for the better. I had no idea what was coming. The years to follow with the November policy and things like that. I was thinking, things have to change. Why would an apostle want to talk to us and want to learn about what it's like to have to have a gay teenage boy and what that means to a family, unless he wanted to help change it for the better? But I was very aware of, like you mentioned, patriarchy. In the beginning. And I just thought, okay, I understand patriarchy, like patriarchal minded men. I understand, you know, the age disparity between us and how we may see things differently. So I told Jake before heading into it, I was like, you do most of the talking because he's gonna hear you. And again, that was maybe presumptuous of me to think that, like, he wouldn't listen to me because I'm a woman, but that's how I felt. And I just was like, so you do all the talking.

Jake Abhau [00:29:00] And I wanted to meet with him probably more than you did.

Meg Abhau [00:29:02] Yeah, you wanted this. And I was like, all right, I'll meet with an apostle. I think he's a man and. But also a man with power. So, yeah, I'll meet with him.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] But like, Meg, was there any small sparkling of a hope that maybe he would rekindle your testimony or tell you something? Was there any part of you that was open to rekindling your faith in the church if he said the right thing or did the right thing?

Meg Abhau [00:29:27] No.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] You were done.

Meg Abhau [00:29:30] I was. And it was like Jake talked about like 80%, 70%, like, he gradually went down. I went from like 100 to 0. 100. But like whatever belief I had to zero in an instant.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Okay, okay, you were done.

Meg Abhau [00:29:44] And then all of a sudden it was on. And I think I can't choose who you love and you can't choose what you believe. And I really couldn't. I don't think I could have. I don't think there's anything he could have said that would have changed that. That wasn't on my radar.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] And throughout 2013, was John still attending church, trying to attend church, partially attending, and he just stopped completely.

Jake Abhau [00:30:06] He stopped. But we had an interesting in June. So just a couple months later, we were in the middle of a move. I lost my job and we were relocating to Arizona because of a new job. And so it was very easy for us to kind of cut really, I guess really strong ties right away because we were going to removing a place so nobody knew us. And you're leaving a place and I'm not really sure people wanted to know us anymore. And so it was kind of easy to not go.

Meg Abhau [00:30:41] Okay, yeah, we had a 13 year old and I was worried. I was sitting here, like, terrified, like, I'm going to traumatize my little Peter Priesthood boy and telling him that he can't go to church anymore. So, like, I'm the parent and I get to choose, let's say, spaces that you were On, I'm not going to throw you. And anyway, but. But again, I also didn't want to traumatize him. I was feeling so conflicted about that. But I just was like, I'm just gonna be open and honest with him and tell him how I. How I saw why as a parent, I saw that it wasn't safe anymore. And he. And he, like, he was like, well, why. And why can't we. Why. Why can't I be gay and go to church? There's nothing wrong with being gay. And I was like, no, you're absolutely right. And he was like, the church thinks. So I had to, like, educate John that there's really not a path, a plan of happiness for him, like there was for us. And I told him, like, we get to choose our own path. And he actually, we had a great conversation, and he just handled it so well. And he was so healthy, and he was like, that makes sense. Okay. And then like, maybe a couple weeks later, he was kind of like, actually, church is really boring. This has been great. Now, Sundays we go and we have fun.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] And so the only one with sort of faith skin in the game going into the meeting with Elder Christofferson was Jake.

Meg Abhau [00:32:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] Okay, so who wants to narrate the beginning of the meeting? Like, what?

Jake Abhau [00:32:16] Well, I will say this just. And then I'll get into. It is the month before where I was mentioning, like, just fasting and praying and just trying with every last, I guess, everything I had to still believe. At the same time, I was thinking, what do you ask? To me, that was the most obvious thing you have to ask an apostle. This is something that speaks to God, like he's got some kind of insight right in direct line to God. What do you ask? And I was like, well, you don't ask a doctrinal question, because doctrinal questions, you can get the answers to pretty much anything that. That we're allowed to know or that's revealed. And, you know, and I was like, I didn't really want to ask a. I knew Meg was going to cover, like, the activism, like, what are we going to do? What are we going to change kind of thing. And I was just. I was. I just went back and forth. I was like, what do you ask? And so when we got there and I didn't know, I mean, we literally. We went to his office in Salt Lake and we were sitting downstairs with some other people. He was meeting with several other groups that day that were attending affirmation. And we. So we were sitting downstairs with another family and still had no idea in my mind what I wanted to ask. And so we get on the elevator and we're heading up there with. Who did we got on the elevator with? He didn't come down. Somebody brought us up the elevator and we met him at the top. My mom was there. She came up. Yeah, she wanted to meet him. And so I think we took a photo or something and. But on the elevator on the way up, we're standing there, and it. It just. It occurred to me, like, what to ask. And I knew it was the question to ask. And essentially it was all about. About Tom's life, his brother, you know, and the trials and stuff that he had and compared to what our son's life might look like. And so the question ultimately that I wanted to ask him was seeing. Seeing your brother. You know, he's been around his brother's whole life. His brother was in a very, very happy relationship with his partner. And. But they still had some different beliefs, some different beliefs. And as far as. I mean, Tom still had belief in the church. There was. There was this element of just trying to live with or reconcile, I guess, with some of the contradictory beliefs. And I saw how that it caused some despair, some problems in their family. Just. There were just things that I did not want for John necessarily, even though Tom was super in a great place and really happy and loved his brother, but I knew the history of his life a little bit. I was like, gosh, that sounds hard and difficult. And so. And it was all pretty much church driven. And so the question I wanted to ask Todd Kristofferson was like, can you give me a reason or some kind of sign or something of a reason that I would want to raise my son in a church knowing that it would be a sad, very challenging, difficult life? Because my understanding of the gospel is. I mean, he was 13 at the time, or just turned 14, I guess, but my understanding, I was like, he's really too young to be accountable. I know age of eight is accountable, accountability, but he's really too young to be accountable. We pull him out of church, you know, he lives a happy gay life, if you will. And I was like, you know, the doctrine is he could die, and he'll have that opportunity to accept it in the next life, have his temple work done and all that, and he'll be able to enjoy all the blessings of salvation without having an absolute miserable, lonely life. And so ultimately, I was like, can you give me any kind of reason for that? You know, that. That that it would be okay. And what I was hoping for is I wanted him to lean in and kind of say, like, kind of give a little wink or lean in and say, hey, yes. Like something's coming. It's. You know, we're going to be changing. You know, it's. It's going to be okay. And instead he sat way back.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we actually go to the meeting.

Jake Abhau [00:36:20] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] So where exactly did the meeting take? So again, it was October.

Meg Abhau [00:36:27] September.

Jake Abhau [00:36:28] September. Right before the day before affirmation.

Meg Abhau [00:36:30] September 2013. And John.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] Okay, September 2013, right before affirmation. Okay, and where physically was the meeting? His office in the administration building next to the church. So not the big, huge church office building, the administration building that's kind of next to the church office building. Right.

Jake Abhau [00:36:52] I'm not. I'm not sure.

Meg Abhau [00:36:54] I don't know.

Jake Abhau [00:36:55] It was like we were up pretty high.

Meg Abhau [00:36:56] It was like bomb proof glass. Yeah, it was pretty. It was in his own personal office, so I don't know if he has multiple offices, but it felt like it was okay.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] Normally, my understanding is the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 have offices in the administration building, which is separate from the church office building.

Meg Abhau [00:37:14] Yeah, but you don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] It's okay.

Jake Abhau [00:37:18] He had a secretary that we met that was outside of his office. It was his secretary. So it was his like static location wherever his.

Meg Abhau [00:37:24] It was very ornate though, down in the lobby. Like, the water fountain was gold and there was marble everywhere. It was. But literally you just walk through this like bomb proof glass. And then there was just the. A security guard. But everything in there was just so ornate and so super famous. Like, literally the water fountain was gold. Okay, so it was a couple blocks

Jake Abhau [00:37:53] east of the temple maybe.

Meg Abhau [00:37:54] What does that sound like? Does that sound like.

Inside the Meeting with Elder Christofferson

John Dehlin [00:37:57] Okay, and who was in the meeting with you besides you guys and D. Todd. Did Tom come?

Jake Abhau [00:38:04] No.

John Dehlin [00:38:05] So it's just the three of you? Okay. And anything about the way they handled you that was interesting? Name tags, I'm assuming weight room. Anything strike you about just the process of going in to meet with. Is it just like a business meeting? Basically, yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:38:22] With high security.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Okay. Super high security.

Jake Abhau [00:38:25] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:38:25] Yeah. I think that was the security guard that took us up. But like the secretary came down and got us and then the security guard brought us up, but they didn't like pat us down or check my bag or anything. They just. It wasn't like.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] I'm guessing they had a metal detector that you. That you walked Through.

Meg Abhau [00:38:43] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Okay. So you're in the meeting. Who you know. So what happens? You walk. You walk in.

Meg Abhau [00:38:50] Yeah. So Jake and I had discussed this ahead of time, that he was going to lead the conversation. And I would just kind of chime in, like the good wife that I was, but I'm not a good wife. And the second my butt hit the seat, I was like, like, I could not shut up. And I. And I even, like, was having an out of body experience, like, shut up, shut up, shut up. Hovering over myself. But. And every time I looked at Jake, he's like. I could see it in his eyes, like, what are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. I can't stop.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] So what types of things were you saying, Meg?

Meg Abhau [00:39:20] Well, I just. I just jumped right in and was. Started talking about the experience of a gay teenager having no path for him, having no, like, set of rules for a gay boy. When I went to my bishop, I just started just like, like, word vomiting. All this stuff about my experience. We went to our bishop and we're like, okay, so like, where are the other parents with gay kids? Like, can we talk to some? Is there like a support group? And I told him there was nothing. I mean, like, literally nothing. He gave me. He gave me the miracle of forgiveness. That's the only thing he, like, had to give me. And he was like, this is what we. This is what I have for you. And I started reading that and I was like, I'm gonna burn this book. Who gives this to people? I was so upset. And so I was telling him what it was like to be a parent of a gay teenager and have. And literally that's where you go. You go to your church for guidance or if you have anything that maybe, I don't know, they had all these support meetings for like gambling addicts or something, but they didn't have anything for me. And I didn't fit the box or the mold. And so I just kind of was telling them, like, that's really a challenge. And this is like something that needs to be addressed. Because I was not good. I did not feel good. And at the time, I only knew to go to my church for resources and support and help. And my bishop was like, I got nothing. He was so nice.

Jake Abhau [00:40:47] Yeah, our bishop was great, but he didn't know. You could tell. This was his first.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] His first time, his first rodeo.

Jake Abhau [00:40:54] Yeah. With this topic. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] Okay, so, Meg, you're just like, you're just telling the full story and expressing.

Meg Abhau [00:41:02] Yeah. Just sharing experience. And sharing our coming out. And I. I shared with him, you know, at the time, I wasn't like. I didn't know where I was on any kind of belief spectrum or spirituality. Of course, everybody's on a journey their whole life, so I don't have. I don't feel like I've landed anywhere still. But I told him that I had, like, one of the most spiritual experiences. And if you can say there's something such a thing as personal revelation, I feel like I had personal revelation for my child. And I said, this is my child, and I have the gift of discernment for him, and I'm gonna know. I'm gonna know what's best for him. So I shared with him this experience that I had, and that's kind of interesting. Okay. So I told him that the night John came out, I was just in my closet so that no one could hear me crying or whatever. And I was just like, what does this mean for him? What does this mean? And I kind of audibly said, you know, who could deny such a soul as this? Because he's just such a good person and he's so. He's just. He's so thoughtful and so kind. And I just audibly said it kind of out loud, and I felt like I got this. Like this feeling just wash over me and just complete peace. And I felt that there was an audible reply, you know, not I. And I told him. I said, this whole just idea opened up in my mind. You know, obviously, I understand how the mind works, and I was probably just trying to, like, give. Give him a purpose through my own mind. But I felt like at the time, I felt like, okay, so gay people do need partnerships, and they do need to be sealed together and ministering angels. And not everybody's meant to have, like, millions of babies in the eternities. And, you know, maybe that's their purpose. And, you know, and this was the

Jake Abhau [00:42:55] night John came out.

Meg Abhau [00:42:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I. And so I'm here, just, like, my mind is giving me a purpose for him to help me fit into what this means. So I'm telling him this, and I was like, I. I really feel like there's an internal purpose for gay people, but the church just doesn't have it, or I don't know what. But he then said, well, that was a really beautiful experience. And personal revelation trumps doctrine. Or. Sorry, is that when he said that? Oh, sorry. Well, so I was just going on and on about this process, personal revelation that I had for John and how There can be a place for gay people in the church. And this is how. This is what I felt like, was like, you know, opened up to me,

John Dehlin [00:43:42] and his response to you was, what? How'd you feel, Megan?

Meg Abhau [00:43:49] He just said, what a beautiful experience. And he listened a lot. He did listen a lot. He was taking notes, and I was like, whoa, he's taking notes. I'm just gonna keep talking.

Jake Abhau [00:43:59] I mean, we probably spoke 85% of the time.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] Okay.

Jake Abhau [00:44:03] I mean, it was. We spoke a lot.

Meg Abhau [00:44:06] But, yeah, so he was taking notes, and he just thought that was such a beautiful experience. And. And. And I just said, what do you have for me? Like, what do you have for us? I just kept, like, asking, and he was. He just. And I said, so, like, John goes to a steak dance. He dances with a boy. Like, what. What does that mean? And he was just, I think, stumped. Like, really stumped. He was like, I don't, like, very much, like the bishop. It was like, I don't have any. I don't have anything for you. And I was like, well, you need to get some stuff for me. And, like, you need to get some stuff for all these kids. Like, John's not the only gay teenager in this church. And I know.

Jake Abhau [00:44:45] Yeah. And I think that was really the first time that Meg's. You know, the whole Mama Dragon thing really, really came out because she's asking these questions, and I know. I'm sitting over there. I know she's not asking them for her because I know we're never going to take dance again, you know, but I know that she's speaking about all these other beautiful kids, Right, that we're starting. Starting to meet and starting to hear about and all the ones that we don't know about yet.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] Because you were one of the founders of Mama Dragons.

Meg Abhau [00:45:13] Yeah, that's actually where the name came from. Was. The night John came out, I just kept, like, you know, I. In my family, I was always teased for being the mama bear or whatever. And the night John came out, I was just like, what's. I feel like this whole new level of protection is coming over me. Like, what's stronger than a bear? What's stronger than a bear? And I just. I don't know, it just, like, happened to me. I just felt like I was growing talons and claws, and I was. I could breathe fire. And I just started getting really worked up, and. Because I had a visual in my head that someone would hit John. Like, that was like, the worst thing I could imagine was that somebody Would bully him and hit him and what that felt like in my belly and my gut. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm capable of murder. Things just got really intense. And now I call myself a mama dragon. And so we put that in our blog post because I really wanted to put the warning out there to my family and friends, like, hey, guess what? I'm, I'm a mom and dragon now. And I think that's just kind of where the name came from. But some other women, we started talking online and some other women were like, oh my gosh, that just lets describes it. Can I call myself a mom and dragon too? It just kind of grew organically from there. Like about six of us. Six or eight of us in the beginning, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] So, Jake, would Meg, you know, talk about your experiences of Meg or kind of, if you ended up sharing as well, why don't you take over the storytelling a little bit?

Jake Abhau [00:46:43] Yeah, so I didn't, I didn't say very much, you know, especially for the first. We probably met for an hour and a half. Maybe. It was long. It was a long time, might have been up to two hours. And yeah, Meg was definitely, definitely talking a lot. And because she's super, super passionate, you know, and, and she was Talking about Prop 8 and these throwaway kids. She accused him of having blood on his hands for a lot of things. I'll let her talk about that. But it's pretty. That's not something that he probably maybe has never heard, you know, being told that. And it was very, it was very poignant, you know, not aggressive, but like, hey, heads up, you know.

Meg Abhau [00:47:29] Yeah, I wasn't like, maybe I was, I don't know.

Jake Abhau [00:47:33] So she kind of. I'll let her get to that. But ultimately he had asked me and to say maybe what I was saying before is I really, really wanted to kind of get to this question that I had about, you know, I was looking for hope, like I said, and maybe backtracking just a hair what I was hoping for. After praying and fasting when we came out of that elevator, I don't know what I was expecting, but I was hoping to see him and see this aura or angels around him. I don't know what I was expecting, but I poured so much of my heart and soul into the previous month. I mean, literally had never exercised more faith probably in anything than I had in that because I knew this was going to be a moment. This was either going to be, this is going to save me or lose me if you Will. And like I said, I didn't know what I was expecting, but I knew something was coming. And we came out of the elevator and we just shake his hand right there outside of his office. And I remember shaking his hand and literally thinking, like, yep, this is. Here's another guy. You know, it was so just, I

John Dehlin [00:48:45] don't know, plain anticlimactic or disappointing.

Jake Abhau [00:48:49] Yeah. And, yeah, not disappointing, just anticlimactic because I was looking for truth still. And so I was open to whatever it was. And people ask me about, you know, how do you do the church? And I, you know, I basically, I say, I Moroni 103 through 5, my way out. Which is the same way that you go in, you know, and you ask if things are true and you're. And I'm now asking if they're not true. And I felt like I had a very, very clear answer almost right going into that meeting. And so it was interesting. Like, so over the course of that meeting, my testimony, which was still hanging on, went from wherever it was to almost nothing. And I came out of there at the end pretty empty. But I did finally get to ask him the question about. I was looking for some safe passage for John, you know, in a church and just looking for something. And when I asked him, I said, can you give us a reason or any kind of hope of what? Of. Of why we should raise John in a church that will knowingly cause, like, sorrow and despair in his life? And that's why I say he kind of. He, like, leaned back and thought about it, and he started shaking his head and said no. And then he said, in fact,

Christofferson's Counsel to Parents of LGBTQ Children

Meg Abhau [00:50:00] he

Jake Abhau [00:50:01] said, raising John in this church may not be the safest place for him. And that, at the time, that was actually disappointing because I was expecting something much grander and some kind of hope for all these other kids that we had now kind of familiarized ourselves with. And I wanted to be able to come out of there and say, hey. Elder Christopher said, hey, this is coming. There's going to be this hope, all this stuff. And so it was much, much of a letdown. So when he said no, it was just kind of just this reality, like, the church isn't safe, and I have an apostle right in front of me recognizing that. Now, he did follow up and say, and said, I. I would counsel you that you stay anchored in Christ. And so he kind of all always has that to come back to, you know, so try to. And I don't think he knew where we were at believing.

Meg Abhau [00:50:49] Do you remember what I Said, no. Why? No. Why?

Jake Abhau [00:50:54] Yeah, why?

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Anchor in Christ?

Meg Abhau [00:50:56] She said, why? Why? Why? You know, what. What. What does that have to offer? Like, what is. I don't know. I just. I just wanted to. I really think I might have thrown him for a loop. But, yeah, I just. I said, why? You know, And I was like, nothing against Christ. I think that he would. I think historical Jesus was a super awesome dude, and he was all about love. And I actually might have said these words. I don't know. I think I did. I was just. But I said, but why? But why? And he just. He didn't have. Again, he said something, but he was like, you know, because. So he will be a good person. And I was like, he'll be. He'll be a good person. Don't, you know, don't worry about that. Like, he's good. He's a good person. I think that comes from within.

Jake Abhau [00:51:49] Yeah. So his counsel, though, ultimately, the biggest takeaway was, to me was which. It took me a couple of days to have this sink in. But to me, he was saying he realized that the church isn't awesome for gay youth. You know, it's not a safe place. And we use the term safe, you know, and it was. And by him counseling us to stay anchored in Christ and in the gospel, you know, it's like, it's safe for gay kids, parents, but not for. Not for their kid.

Meg Abhau [00:52:17] Yeah. He was saying if you. If we stayed anchored in the gospel, in Christ, then John will stay on the same path. And I kind of took offense to the. That because. Because I know a lot of, you know, beautiful people that don't believe in Christ and they have beautiful children, and they are completely capable of following an internal moral compass. And, you know, so I said. So I was like, so John's. John's only going to be okay and be a good person if I stay anchored in the gospel like that. That doesn't make sense to me. And I. That's why I just challenged him on that.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] It's very similar to the meeting that Trevor Haugen had with Don Clark, Elder Don Clark, who basically said, good luck raising kids outside of Mormonism, because if you think it's bad in Mormonism, it's really bad outside of Mormonism. And Mormonism is the only chance you really have of raising healthy, moral kids. And it sounds like that's a. A tool in their tool bag that they pull out regularly.

Jake Abhau [00:53:20] Yeah. And I'm gonna. Yes and no with that John. I mean, because he did recognize that the church still wasn't safe for him, you know? So I hear what you're saying, but he didn't give an alternative saying outside of the church will be better. He just recognized the problems.

Meg Abhau [00:53:35] If we stay, like, yeah, that's fine. John can leave, but you have to stay, so John will still be good. And it's kind of along those lines of that testimony where it was like, my mom held so tight to the iron rods, and that makes me awesome. And that made me awesome, you know? And then John had this fear that if I let go of the iron rod, that he would be awesome. It's a weird narrative thinking about that now, but, yeah, I just was like, I take offense to that. That offended me.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Sure, sure.

Meg Abhau [00:54:07] I don't know why.

Confronting Church Leadership on LGBTQ Harm

John Dehlin [00:54:08] So, Meg, what. Talk about the part where you said you told him he had blood on his hands. You didn't mention that in your. So talk about that.

Meg Abhau [00:54:19] Yeah, I. Yeah. Okay. So. So I was telling him, kind of giving him some statistics at the time. And I'm trying to think of what it was at the time. I had before I went into the meeting, I wanted to be armed with information. So I had been in contact with Marian Edmonds, who was the kind of CEO of Outreach in Ogden, Utah, and she was on the grant, you know, boots on the ground, dealing with the homelessness. Yeah, homelessness. Homelessness. And the way the laws were at the time, you couldn't house a homeless teen. There were, like, kidnapping charges and things like that. Like, they couldn't even go to a homeless shelter. So all she could provide for them was a tent. And, like, the most requested item was a plank of wood. So they weren't sleeping on the frozen ground because they were in location in the mountains in Cache Valley. And there were, like, 1200 kids there. It wasn't like a few. There were like, 1200 homeless teenagers. I had never heard of such a thing. And they called themselves the throwaway kids. And so I'm telling him these things, and I. And I started saying how this related to Mormonism, you know, from the information that I had from Marion.

Jake Abhau [00:55:31] And he never heard of this.

Meg Abhau [00:55:33] Yeah, this was news to him. So the information I was giving him this information of, you know, how many hours a kid outside of the church had to get to safety before they turned to prostitution or sex trafficking or whatever, you know, just to stay alive and ate. And they had. It was like 72 hours at the time. It was like Mormon kids, because they're so naive or something, just didn't have street Smarts. It was 12 hours and your Mormon parents just kicked you out. And. And who are you going to go to? You know, somebody in your ward friends? It just. You're. And dealing with that internal shame again. I can make up stories about this and what that. What I can imagine that would be like. But that's. That's the. This is the experience. This is what happens. These are the numbers that were happened that I was given. And I was. And I was told several stories of these kids. So I was sharing this information with him and. And saying, as Mormons, we can do better. We have to do better. We have to take care of our kids. And so I shared this with him, and he kind of looked at me and he's like, that's so sad. And I was like. I go, isn't it? I said, don't you realize you have the power to change this? Don't you realize that?

Jake Abhau [00:56:51] Sorry, no, no. We've been married 17 years at that time, and I had never seen this Meg before in this moment.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Really.

Jake Abhau [00:57:00] I mean, it was. It was intense. Keep going. But I'm just. Just for emphasis, I was standing back going, wow. Holy fetch. Because that's what I said. Then I said, you go.

Meg Abhau [00:57:14] I just leaned into it. Like, I leaned in and I was like, you have the power to change this. Like, I might have come up a little aggressive, and I recognize that, but at the time, I was just like, oh, my gosh. And it just felt like, oh, that's so sad. Wow. Really? It is sad. This is so sad. And I said, you have the power to change this. You have the power to change this. I don't. He doesn't. You do. And I said, you do nothing. You have blood on your hands. In fact, they're already dripping. And he kind of sat back again. Every time I spoke, I felt like he leaned back, like, get out of my office. Who are you? But again, he was really nice and really kind. And so I tried. So I tried to kind of, like, soften the blow a little bit. What I just said, I realized what I did, and I sat back and I was like, well, like, we all have blood on our hands. Like, we all contributed to this. But now, like, what are we gonna do about it? How can I help? So it's not as bad as you say?

Jake Abhau [00:58:11] No, it's good.

Meg Abhau [00:58:12] But maybe that's the only time somebody has said that to him. Maybe. I don't know. I think that there are a little bit isolated in a bubble. They have lawyers in PR that are out kind of within the public and talking to the public. But yeah, I didn't know I could have been excommunicated on the spot for that. But yeah, that happened. And he just kind of like was quiet for a minute and you know, kind of furrowed his brow and started taking some notes. And I challenged him again, like, no, really, you could say something, you could say something at general conference over the pulpit. Just something you don't have to change doctrine. But like, what can we do to help these kids?

Jake Abhau [00:58:59] Yeah, I remember talking, I was like, for however many years we have heard marriages between a man and a woman. And if you did not know as a Mormon that Mormons believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, you aren't a Mormon, right? I was like, can we talk about something different? Like just something positive? We don't have to step away from that doctrine, but just, you know, something kind of like, kind of like what Uchtdorf has said since, you know, as far as there is a place view. I mean, some of, some of the verbiage has changed a little bit, which has been good. But like that was never, that was really never a thing that was said from the pulpit. It was just, you know, rule with iron fist kind of man, woman, man, woman. And it was like, well, there are gay people. Like, you're literally like in this conversation you're recognizing that their path is different. And we did talk a little bit about the afterlife, you know, and what that meant for gay people as well. And you know, there is no plan. There is no written out plan.

Meg Abhau [01:00:00] Yeah, he did say, you know, this talked about like the narrative of this life is a test and that everything's going to be made whole in the afterlife. And I was like, what does that mean? Like, like, what does that mean? Because I don't think my kid wants to just like be made straight when he dies like that. And then I said, and that kind of narrative also contributes to suicidal ideation or thoughts because these kids are literally dying to be made whole.

Jake Abhau [01:00:29] And he did confirm, I mean, he didn't, I guess, admit or deny that kind of, you know, when people talk about the narrative of the church, the only way that this plan of salvation works for a gay person, it's just kind of logical deduction, you know, is that for so many, so many years it was like, oh yeah, well they'll just be made straight and then this gay man will be straight and he'll be given a woman or whatever and all, you know, I think that's what people thought. Mayhol meant. And I mentioned that to him. You know, I was like. I said, no gay person wants to hear that. You know, I mean, I don't know that for sure, but I know as a straight person, I certainly want to hear the same thing. I don't know that for sure, but as a straight person, I know that I wouldn't want to be told, oh, you're going to be gay in the next life, and that's going to be your happiness. So I just kind of assumed that can't be a very pleasant doctrine to be taught. And I don't know if it's actually. You may know this. I don't know if it's actually written anywhere specifically his doctrine, but I did mention it to him. We just kind of grazed over it, you know, that it was a not popular idea.

Meg Abhau [01:01:31] But he was surprised at that. He was surprised at that. He was like, oh. Because he thought that was giving them hope. I think we're just coming. We were just coming from like, two different places, like completely two different places. How what we saw was harmful. He actually thought was. Was hopeful and was being kind to gay people and loving. So his. His idea of loving gay people just doesn't. It just was a different way to look at it.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] So did he offer anything satisfactory or useful in that conversation?

Jake Abhau [01:02:10] Yeah, and that's probably the end. This is probably the other main thing that we talked about that was probably the. My favorite takeaway, if you will, from it. And I know he met with other people that day, and in most of those conversations, I know he met with somebody who. A gay man that is married to another man and had been for a long time was excommunicated. And I know they were talking about how their relationship was with their relationship with God, that they knew that they were. That they were okay. And, you know, but the church says that they're not okay and how that's kind of conflicting, you know. And some of the other conversations that we heard throughout the day all kind of had the same narrative a little bit in affirmation. I mean, Daniel Parkinson did a whole piece on this about your relationship with God and as a gay person and feeling that your relationship with somebody else of the same sex is okay with God and how that kind of fits and how you. How that just how it affects you. So we talked about that idea a little bit, you know, and I was asking. We're asking him. I was like, how do you. Like, how do you explain that? Or how do you explain somebody? I mean, are they deceived? Are they praying to God about their gay relationship? And they're deceived at their answer, you know, because their church is telling them something opposite. And this is where he said. He's like, no, they're not deceived. This is where, you know, personal revelation will trump church doctrine every time. And, I mean, that makes sense to me, you know? But then he backed it up, just like you're supposed to. If anybody's learned anything about teaching, you're supposed to back everything up with Scripture, which he did. He said, you look at Laban, Nephi, and Laban, you know, you're not supposed to murder. Nephi was commanded to kill Laban. And that's an example of some personal revelation trumpeting church doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] Wow.

Jake Abhau [01:04:01] And then he went on, and this is the thing that really aggravated me much, much later as it kind of set in. He said, but we can't teach this from the pulpit. We can't teach this from the masses, because this is a church of order, and we can't be in a church of chaos. And at the time, I remember, I was like, well, that makes sense. If you just say everybody can do whatever they feel they want, then it no longer becomes an institution. It just becomes kind of a free for all. But I also remember thinking how important it is that all the gay people realized that this is doctrine, you know, that you're telling me right now, you're saying this personal revelation trumps church doctrine and that. I mean, I cannot imagine how many lives that one line from an apostle or prophet would say, you know, because people, it's the mess. That message certainly isn't out there. And like I said, it's backed up. It's backed up by scripture, you know, in the Book of Mormon. And so you can't even. How do you deny it? And so that was my biggest, biggest takeaway from the whole. From the whole meeting.

Meg Abhau [01:05:05] Did you feel relief almost about that? Like, okay, I can follow my heart. I can lead the church. I can be. Did it make you feel relief?

Jake Abhau [01:05:20] No, I was kind of angry. But we're also telling. This is my deconversion story that we're telling John, same time. So I literally came out of here at the end and was like, this is. That's it. This is over.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] Well, so you left your testimony. What happened?

Jake Abhau [01:05:35] I left it there in the room.

Meg Abhau [01:05:38] I mean, I was.

Jake Abhau [01:05:40] All of it.

Meg Abhau [01:05:41] I was like, are you okay? I was. I was pretty mad, and I was disappointed, and I was hoping. Like, I honestly did go in thinking there's hope, like, they're gonna. He's gonna maybe share with me that there's some sort of something coming for gay people. But. But I was like, more.

Jake Abhau [01:05:56] I was distraught.

Meg Abhau [01:05:57] I mean, I was just more concerned for you. But. But, yeah, obviously I wasn't.

Jake Abhau [01:06:03] But. No, the comment that he made, though, was. Made me mad that it was because I've been learning about some of the history about the church through LDS sources even, you know, that I just didn't know. And it was. Was just shocked at the transparency like we talked about earlier. I was like, oh, my gosh. I was like, if I had been taught this story as a primary kid, I could have believed that, you know, Joseph Smith, you know, in the hat, you know, you don't ever hear about that. You know, as in the primary. I was like, I couldn't believe that as much as I could have believed behind a cloth and gold plates or whatever. I was like, why would you not tell the whole. The whole story? And. And so this was just kind of more. It was just consistent, just reaffirming that. That kind of method of teaching, if you will. It's like we're going to hold some of the important truths to people because actually, I don't know for whatever the motivation is behind not sharing the complete truth. And so that was making me mad because that's where I was in my. In my investigation process a little bit. And that was just kind of the last. The last straw. And I didn't have my spiritual experience that I was like, just yearning for, you know, right at the beginning. And it just kind of got worse throughout the meeting.

Disappointments and Reflections on the Meeting

John Dehlin [01:07:18] So the most disappointing parts for you, Jake, were just summarized.

Jake Abhau [01:07:26] One, When I met him, he didn't have angels around him. I don't know how.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] All right.

Jake Abhau [01:07:32] And then. And then just simply the stuff that he was saying to us. Things are things that I felt like they couldn't teach publicly. And since. Since then.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Well, I guess so it felt duplicitous that they were hiding, holding things back, basically.

Jake Abhau [01:07:52] Absolutely. Because he's saying things to us in that meeting that they would never say, but need so desperately to be said. And it made. It would save the, you know, would save the one sheep, if you will, you know. But. But it's. But it would confuse a lot of the other, I think, mainstream members because it's inconsistent with a lot of other things. And.

John Dehlin [01:08:13] And when so much is at stake, you're like, we can't afford to be hiding some of the information, playing games. You're like this. That we either need to be. We need to be fully honest and open, regardless of the consequences. Right. Okay. Anything else, Jake, about what was disappointing for you and your faith?

Jake Abhau [01:08:34] No, not really.

John Dehlin [01:08:36] Okay. Meg, how about you? What were you. What were your reactions overall?

Meg Abhau [01:08:42] I think kind of like what you just said. There was so much on the line there. Just even. Not. Not even. Yeah. The fact that he didn't get it. And there were some experiences that he shared with me because I'm like, I'm going in, talking to a guy with a gay brother. He's totally gonna get this. But he didn't. And that was disappointing.

Jake Abhau [01:09:04] There's things that he did and then things that he didn't. I probably. I mean, those things I assumed that he probably would get, and he did, but there's a lot of things I was kind of, like, shocking, huh? If I can. We talked about Prop 8 a little bit, and I forgot there was a moment we were talking about Prop 8 and he again, he leaned back in his chair and, like, looked at the ceiling, was like, I don't. That just didn't really go how we thought it was gonna go. That. And I remember even then, looking at Meg, I'm like, duh. You know, I was like, how did you not think that? So that. That, to me, showed that, you know, you're not getting it. But. But admittedly, I mean, six months earlier, I didn't. I didn't get it. Although I didn't have. I didn't have a relative that was gay that I knew of. I didn't have any. Any interaction. Like, none.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] Right. Meg, any other reactions?

Meg Abhau [01:09:56] Yeah, just for me, I just was so disheartened because, you know, obviously I was at the church, but I wanted to kind of help make it better if I could. And not just, like, going to the extremes of suicide because you put these numbers out in suicide, and it just feels a little overwhelming. And maybe it's not as personal, but even just quality of life, you know, companionship, happiness, just. Just wanted some hope. And also, I was kind of hopeful to have something to say to my brothers and sisters who are TVM or. And. And just kind of tell them, like, hey, an apostle just, like, told me, this. Isn't this so cool? Like, don't worry about my. Your nephew's salvation or me or whatever, you know, but. So I was. I actually didn't realize how hopeful I was until I was so disappointed walking out. And.

Jake Abhau [01:10:48] Yeah. And I can add. There's something else that just popped in my head. Something else just interesting that he said, as he was kind of close to the end, he spoke a lot more. And something that he said. We were talking about quality of life. We're talking about, you know, the path of a gay person in the church and things like that. And we're talking about marriage. And of course, this was definitely before marriage equality, you know, and we. And he recognized that gay marriage, if you will, was probably going to be legal, you know, at some point. I mean, at that point, I think we all knew that was coming. We just didn't know how soon. And then he mentioned. He goes, but I don't think. I don't think it will ever be, you know, ever be happening in the temple. And he took a pause and again looked at the ceiling. It's like his thinking face looked at the ceiling and was like, I just. It's the core of our. Of the gospel, of this religion of everything is man, woman, is offspring. It's, you know, ultimately becoming like God and repeating this whole thing. And that only works in the male, female family unit. And that this is what he was saying. And he was just. He didn't say no, but it just. In his mind, he recognized. He was like, I just can't even think of a way of how that would ever, ever work. So two things told, you know, two things there. It's one. I was like, oh, so he's open to it, you know, because he didn't say no. No. But he just couldn't through his mind, like, well, he wasn't creative enough, I guess, to think of a way that it could fit. So that was actually an encouraging thing and a discouraging thing at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:12:29] Okay, well, I. There are some. When I think about an orthodox Mormon view, I have just some concerns about just this whole thing. And instead of editorializing at first, maybe I'll ask you the questions as a devil's advocate and have you respond, okay. Is that okay? And then if I feel like I need to editorialize, I'll jump in. Is that okay?

Jake Abhau [01:12:59] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] All right. So for you, Jake, you know, you said one of the reasons why you were frustrated was because you didn't see angels. And so what if I were to say to you. What if someone would say to you, well, you had unfair expectations. These are just men. They don't claim to be anything more than men. And you were wrong to expect more of them than just that. They're nice religious executives. What would you say? Would you say anything in your defense for having that expectation?

Jake Abhau [01:13:30] So it was the reason. The reason I have expectation, and I say angels as just kind of a term to throw out there. But I was definitely expecting a spiritual experience at some level. Right. Some kind of confirmation. And the reason I say that is I can go back to my. In my life and there are four very, very significant events in my life that I have prayed so earnestly over and fasted. The whole kind of works and like, over time, put it, kind of put in this. The mental of the spiritual energy, looking for an answer. And these four scenarios, like, I had it. I had a spiritual moment with each one. And it was a confirmation of the thing that I was. I was searching for. And so I think having a similar expectation based on my relationship with God at that point was very, very reasonable. And it was based on history and experience. And no, I didn't expect to see angels, but I did expect to see some sort of. Some sort of have some sort of like, spiritual experience. And knowing that this was kind of. That this was like the last straw a little bit. And like, it wasn't an ultimatum, but it was. I had been trying so hard the last six months leading up to that to believe and stay, you know, despite everything that I had kind of learned and read, you know, I was like, this is. This is it. This is my moment. And it was almost. It wasn't almost like, it was like I just met. Like, I would meet somebody else on the street, you know, say, oh, here's some guy. It was almost. It was almost the opposite. It was almost a display of, like, this is so normal and plain that it was almost the answer that I didn't want. You know, it was like an emphasis on normal.

Meg Abhau [01:15:24] But that's a fair question.

Jake Abhau [01:15:26] Absolutely.

Meg Abhau [01:15:26] Because, like, I heard all the stories of, like, if you see a spirit, you ask them to shake your hand, they shake your hand. Then I can't remember what the narrative is.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] Right. That's in the Doctrine and Covenants rules about when you see an angel, how to tell if it's a real angel versus an imposter or Satan's angel.

Meg Abhau [01:15:46] Yeah. So angels are real. So that would. That, you know, that would. In the. In that. In that mindset, in that narrative. So, like, I think it would be reasonable for Jake to think that he could actually see angels.

John Dehlin [01:15:57] Joseph saw angels. Right. The three witnesses, the eight witnesses, warriors.

Meg Abhau [01:16:03] Hang out in the church building and, like, guard their offices or something.

Jake Abhau [01:16:05] We're getting off, though. I definitely didn't expect to see angels. Have you said, no, that's fine. Consistent communication, relationship that I'd already had with God.

John Dehlin [01:16:17] Are there teachings about apostles that would pride me to think they would be more spiritual than just your average person or member. Any teachings about what an apostle is or isn't?

Jake Abhau [01:16:32] I don't know. It's cultural for sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] No, we're taught that. I'm sorry, I'm answering my own question. We're taught that apostles are special witnesses of Christ. And what they lead us to believe is that they have seen Christ themselves. And so if they're able to talk with Christ, if they're among the most righteous men on the planet, you think that that wouldn't make a difference, that that would give them insight? Right. And if they're. I'm sorry, I'm just going to answer the question. So if they're prophetseers and revelators, what does that imply? It implies that they prophesy that they see the future ahead of time and they anticipate the future. Right. They see things that we can't see. They prophesy and they reveal things to sort of give us an advantage as their followers versus everybody else out there in other false religions that don't have leaders that speak with God. And so, you know, instead of them learning about this beforehand and leading with God's will, the way it's going on is Tom Kristofferson's like, I'm gay and my brother's a little bit clueless. So let me pull together a bunch of people and. And try and educate my brother. Because the church is totally backwards and screwed up on this. Right. And that's on the one hand, someone would say, well, you're expecting too much. They're just men. They're doing the best they can. And of course they're going to learn from the general membership, and of course they're going to learn through their gay relatives. And that's just realistic versus having unrealistic expectations of your leaders. On the flip side, what the crap is the use of a prophet, seer and revelator if the members have to teach them and tell them suicide statistics and quote Marian Edmonds or whoever or Caitlin Ryan, basically quote social scientists to educate the prophets so the prophets can get informed enough to implement policies that won't kill more kids? So, sorry, that's my rant. Because I'm impatient.

Meg Abhau [01:18:52] Exactly. That's kind of interesting that you said that, that you say that. Because that's like one of the last things I said. I was like, well, you talk to Jesus, right? So can you ask him about this?

John Dehlin [01:19:05] What'd he say? Yeah, what did he say?

Jake Abhau [01:19:09] I heard rhetorical?

Meg Abhau [01:19:12] Well, he just kind of went like this. He just kind of nodded his head and smiled. Like, again, he was so polite, but I'm not sure he was fully prepared for me, for me being so direct. And interestingly enough, and I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but his next talk at general conference was that angry feminist talk, like, a month later. And I was like, hey, so rude. But, yeah, I did say that to him. And I meant. I kind of. I wasn't being sarcastic, but okay, I was not it. I wouldn't say sarcasm, but, like, I knew he didn't talk to Christ, but I was like, hey, guess what? Like, you talk to Jesus. Can you, like, can you figure this out? Can you ask? Because right now you're just saying there's. That we have nothing, but, like, when can we get something? But yeah, he just kind of was like, yeah.

Jake Abhau [01:20:06] And in his defense, we were about his seventh or eighth hour that day of meeting with people.

Meg Abhau [01:20:11] You know what, though? Something that was different.

Jake Abhau [01:20:14] We were harder. I think we were harder than everybody else.

Meg Abhau [01:20:16] Yeah. Shouldn't have left us at the end. I feel bad for him, but, you know, when Jake was talking, he was, like, leaning in and all. That's so interesting. He said that to you like, 25 times. Oh, that's so interesting. Every time I spoke, he just was like, like, oh, aren't you something?

John Dehlin [01:20:36] Cute little woman speaking. No, Margi had that experience with my stake president. He literally never asked us a question. Her a question. He was fine with her never saying anything the whole hour and a half that we were there.

Meg Abhau [01:20:48] Thank you. That must be some sort of weird cultural thing, because I felt like Jake always listened to me, you know, And I don't know, I didn't feel like patriarchy was a huge thing, you know, in our family. I would always say, like, you know, Jake Collins wanted to say the prayer or whatever. You know, we definitely lived it. But that was kind of my first encounter with that where I was, like, looking. I don't know, maybe I had just woken up to it, but I was looking around like. Like, I have things to say. Like, everything you say is interesting, but. But, yeah, I can relate to Mark either.

John Dehlin [01:21:27] So what was it like? Fast forward a couple years to the November 2015 policy, not only to learn about that policy, but also to see him as the church's front man justifying the policy. Do either of you want to take a stab at what your reactions were when you saw that he was the spokesperson for the November 2015 policy declaring same sex marriage an act of apostasy and stating that the children of same sex married couples could not get baptized or become members until the age of 18 if they only denounced their parents marriage before they joined. Either of you want to take that?

Jake Abhau [01:22:14] Yeah. I can hear Meg breathing right now. We're having the same. We're having the same visceral reaction. I can tell even when you're talking about it, it was so bad, and. I don't know, I mean, it was. It felt so bad and so betraying, and it felt total, you know, wolf in sheep's clothing kind of thing and

John Dehlin [01:22:34] that He's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Jake Abhau [01:22:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:38] Because of. Well, because in terms of, like, kindness or charity, you're saying.

Jake Abhau [01:22:45] Well, because I felt like he was the guy. He was like our guy. He was our. He was the person that, like our line of communication with the church. And I say our. I mean, the whole LGBT Mormon community, right? And the church used him. This is what it felt like. It's like the church used him to just kind of stick it to us. And he. And he said, okay. You know, and it left me believing. I'm like, okay, either he's just giving us lip service. I mean, this is my two. My two, I don't know, two summations. It's. Either was just giving all of these people lip services that he meets with, you know, every year at Affirmation. I don't know if he still does. You know, the stuff that he said to us was so helpful towards gay people, yet he's gonna be the one that delivers the most crushing news. And, you know, I was like, this is

John Dehlin [01:23:40] like.

Jake Abhau [01:23:40] It's almost like the worst way to deliver it. I mean, they got the. He was a wolf. I mean, and the guys of, like, our friend. And it just. I don't know, it felt so hurt. It was mad.

Meg Abhau [01:23:51] We had been out of the church for a couple of years, so. But I was so shocked how that affected me, because I know the. The ripple effect that's gonna happen after that. Every time they have a general conference, every time they speak at all, there's like, this ripple effect within the LGBT community, within the activist community that I work in, that we're gonna have to, like, clean this up. I'm tired of cleaning up your messes. Like, stop speaking. Just stop. Just, like, just stop. Like, stop saying things. And I was just so upset. And sure enough, like, more blood on his hands. Yeah, I'll help. Broke loose after that policy and I were sitting here asking for more. For more love. Just. Just messages of love. That's it. Like, no ultimatums. No, like, just. Just love. Like, what's that gonna hurt? And I was so betrayed and so mad. I was so shocked. I was like, okay, I'm kind of removing myself from all of this. And I. And I was hurt. I was just like, I was sobbing and I'm so. And I'm gone. I'm out of the church like a couple years. And even my son, who was. Who he was living, he was hurt. He was irate. He was really mad. And. And yeah, it's. It's just hurtful. It's just hurtful. But so, yeah, I even like called my. One of my very believing sister in laws and I was like, that's it. How can they do this? How? I don't even know why I called her. I just called and I just needed to. I just unloaded her and I was. I was so upset. I was so mad. I was like, what is the point of this? What is.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] Did you guys feel vindicated in your decision to leave the church?

Jake Abhau [01:25:34] Like, how.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] So did the 2015 decision help you feel reassured that you had made the right decision?

Jake Abhau [01:25:41] No.

Meg Abhau [01:25:41] Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, that way you're gonna be like, yeah, I'm glad I'm not part of that. I'm gonna actually make it official now. You know, stuff like that.

Jake Abhau [01:25:49] I was already sure. I mean, that didn't make me any more sure. I was. Felt like I was sure as I was going to be okay. But I mean, it just made me.

Meg Abhau [01:25:55] Yeah, yeah. Come to think of it, I'm like, actually surprised I didn't get excommunicated.

Jake Abhau [01:26:00] But you have to go.

Meg Abhau [01:26:04] Maybe they have. Maybe because I'm a woman, I don't know. Who cares?

Jake Abhau [01:26:08] So we're talking about after the fact, right? And one of the most frustrating things that. One of the. One of two reasons that we probably more. Not more openly open about this conversation that we had is, is anytime, anytime I would talk about this to any of our still believing Mormon friends, you know, on Facebook or whatever. I don't really write about it, but I'll definitely share it in, like, private messages and things like that. I intentionally don't go super public. And like, people don't believe. They don't believe us, you know, and they're like, you, you've. You misunderstood this or. Because he would never say this, you know, and. Oh my gosh. And I feel like from. From 30 minutes out of that meeting. I feel like I've been talking about it to people that I know, you know, retold these stories so many times. Times that I was like, I feel like we got it, you know, and in the meeting we were like clarifying, you know, things and re asking and phrasing things in such a way. So I was like, you know, I mean like the personal revelation comment, you can't misunderstand that when it's backed up with scripture. Yeah, but people just so people are left to either you don't you misunderstood or you're anti Mormon trying to bring the church down by sharing this. It's the most frustrating thing.

Meg Abhau [01:27:26] Like if we can't make the church safer for gay people, marginalized people, you know, even people that feel whatever, then let's like, let's get them out. Like I would like to make, create safe pathways for gay people to get out of the church. You know, just anything that might be unhealthy. But like, I really, I really, after that policy, I was like, whoa, like, like the gauntlet has been thrown. This is not safe. And it is, I'm like, extra not safe. How can it get possibly get worse? Oh well, this is how let's like punish their children. But that's totally something Jesus would do.

Jake Abhau [01:28:06] I had an argument at work for a month with a Mormon friend of mine who didn't believe that the policy was a thing. He's like, church wouldn't do that. That's, that's a fake said, you know, that you had written it, all kinds of stuff, you know that and leaked it. And you know, and it wasn't until Christofferson's clarification or explanation came out that he kind of finally believed that it was legit. And I was like. And you know, like that didn't matter because for the previous month it mattered a lot.

John Dehlin [01:28:36] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [01:28:37] So it's frustrating.

John Dehlin [01:28:38] Just to validate you guys. With my own experience, I met with Elder Holland twice, Elder Jeff Holland, and two things very similar I was concerned about in my second meeting with him. I was concerned about mixed faith marriages that would end in divorce when one believed and one didn't. And I asked him for something very similar. I said, do you think that losing your faith should be grounds for a divorce? And he's like, no. And I said, well, can you say that in a general conference so that believers won't divorce their non believing spouses? And he literally said, someday we may be more mature of a church where we'll be able to make a statement like that. But right now, we're not at a place where we could say something like that. And I just thought, really, like, you're worried about politics or whatever, and that's gonna keep you from trying to save some marriages. But that's exactly what he said. The only other thing, the kind of the wolf in sheep's clothing thing, is that I asked him if he wanted people like me in the church that maybe couldn't believe the Book of Mormon was historical or maybe didn't believe the Book of Abraham was historical, but still valued the cultural aspects of the church. And he was so insistent that he wanted people like us in the church. And the very next general conference was the Book of Mormon talk that he gave. And I'm like, there's no way you're lying, because if you wanted people like me in the church, you would have never given that talk. Because that Book of Mormon talk about crawling, if you leave the church, you have to crawl over, around, or under the Book of Mormon was such a demeaning, insulting thing. I just realized these apostles tell you what you want to hear in private. That's what they do.

Meg Abhau [01:30:30] Mm.

Jake Abhau [01:30:31] That's what it feels like.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [01:30:34] Yeah. Because ultimately, Mormons got a Mormon. They're gonna be so kind. And. Yeah, yeah. I. That. That. That policy is awful. And I understand that, you know, suicide is complex. I understand that there are. There's, you know, variables. But the. But if we can, like, do something to maybe alleviate that and, like, maybe acknowledge the higher rate of suicide in the gay community and the Mormon Church specifically, and, like, why Utah is so high up there and why we get these spikes, you know, after you guys. After the apostles speak or whatever. Like, if we can just acknowledge. Let's start at a basic. And try to take maybe one thing off the plate of somebody who has suicidal thoughts or suicidal tendencies or even has attempted it, and, you know, a narrative that I hear from a lot of my. A lot of my gay friends who specifically have survived suicide, that that was such a contributing factor was the. Was the narrative that they're hearing from the church. Like, why. Again with you, why. Why wouldn't we want to save marriages? And here I'm sitting here. Why wouldn't.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] Why.

Meg Abhau [01:31:57] If you know that you can potentially save a life or take something. Take that piece of it off the. Off the table. Like, why wouldn't we do this? Why? It's really.

Jake Abhau [01:32:08] Don't kick your kid out from your house if he tells you he's gay. Say that from the. That doesn't contradict Any doctrine, anything at all. But I don't know why we can't say that because people are still doing it.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] Or don't reject or don't reject your gay and lesbian children, period.

Meg Abhau [01:32:23] Or family members or. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't. I don't know. Okay. Frustrating. It's just really frustrating.

Closing Thoughts and Takeaways

John Dehlin [01:32:32] Well, as. So as we kind of bring this interview to the close, I'm going to sort of summarize. This is the third interview we've done. I'm going to ask you guys to prepare kind of closing statements. Jake will have you go first and then Meg to close. But I'm just going to say what I'm learning so far from my discussions with people who have met with general authorities is they're amongst the least educated on any given issue, whether it's church history or LGBT stuff or mixed faith marriages. They aren't aware of what's going on. They consider themselves managers. So they don't even necessarily consider themselves as responsible for becoming highly educated. They rely on other people to be the experts. And they're kind and they're gracious, but they don't always end up. Their words and graciousness don't match their behavior outside of those meetings. And they're often willing to tell a different thing privately than what they're willing to admit publicly. And in all those instances, it comes across more as a bureaucrat or a politician than it does disciple of Christ. That's what I'm gathering from the people that I've talked to so far. Jake, what would you like to say in closing?

Jake Abhau [01:34:04] Yeah, I mean, I'll second that for sure. I mean, I think you just. I mean, your example with Elder Holland is perfect. And I love that you shared that. It's such a good. Because I have very, very close friends and family members who are dealing with that right now and would love to hear that from. Said from the pulpit, you know, so their marriages can be safe and. Yeah. So I guess my biggest. I mean, just my biggest. My biggest takeaway for me personally, other than what you just said, is. I guess there needs to be like a. I'm off. I can't think of how to say this. Do you know what you want to say? He can edit and fix this later.

Meg Abhau [01:34:56] I don't know.

Jake Abhau [01:34:59] I was listening to what you were saying so much. John.

John Dehlin [01:35:02] No, it's okay. Any final. Just closing thoughts? Suggestions? Perspective? Now that you're through this, are you happy? Are you not? Like what? Just closing thoughts. Would you want to share with the

Jake Abhau [01:35:14] audience so I think one of my biggest takeaways, the second, what you've obviously said as well, is that for me personally, as far back as I can remember, I've always been a seeker of truth, if you will. I think the Mormonism in me as a very young kid has always taught me to look for truth in so many. So many things. Magnosis, I tend to be, is. I tend to be fairly diplomatic and fairly try to see other people's sides of every. Every scenario. And in leaving the church, I felt like I found. I found more truth. I learned that the church wasn't true. So thus I'm going to leave it. I found that the things that Elder Christopherson said to me, true or not, there are certainly things that he did say. And so I'm going to repeat them and be. And share that out there. I mean, these are things that he said that people need to hear.

Meg Abhau [01:36:09] And

Jake Abhau [01:36:13] so I guess just ultimately is the biggest frustration is as either believing people or not believing members is being open to everything. Right? And being open to. I love that you're doing this podcast so you can hear a lot of different stories, and stories is probably one of the best ways for truth to be kind of spread, because you'd love to kind of make up your own mind, but just to stay open to everything that's happened and look at it and be able to step back and look at it and realize that it is exactly what you said. I feel pretty confident that they're either lying for the pulpit or they're lying in these personal, private meetings, because they certainly are not saying the same thing. And, yeah, it's a bit frustrating, and I hope people are open to that, open to looking kind of deeper into making that decision on their own.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] Thank you, Jake. Meg, you get the last word.

Meg Abhau [01:37:09] All right. I think that some people, you know, might say, I might come across as, like, angry or belligerent or however I might come across, I don't know. But am I angry? Yeah, I'm really angry. I'm frustrated. I'm tired. I think Natasha Parker said this perfectly about compassion fatigue, because you're in the trenches and you see the devastation and you're calling out for help and no help is coming, and it is frustrating. And what kind of psychopath would I be to be like. Because people are like, just leave. Just leave it alone. You can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. And. And that, like, I don't understand what kind of sociopath I would have to be to just see my people. People that I feel are, you know, hurt and devastated and feel like. But I'm not going to help or I'm not going to try to help or do something about this. And so I don't want to just come across as, like, angry and spiteful. I really. Still. Everything I do is to try to help kids like my son and my friends. And however, whatever I can do to lend helping hand, I still want to do. But am I. Am I after the. Like, am I angry? Yeah, I'm angry. But about this particular topic, about the subject, yes. It's personal. It's a very personal. Very. It affects my life personally, and it still affects my son's life personally. But. But as far as the rest of my life and as far as the rest of, you know, figuring out our own journeys and going. I'm sorry, I don't mean to ramble on, but there's happiness outside of the church and there, and you can find it, and you can find your own path. And that's been, I guess that's been, like, hard and challenging, but also really liberating and exciting. You know, like, we've gone through some hard things. Every life is still life, and. But I'm trying to say sorry. Sorry I went off track there. But anyway, I'm here. But if the apostles would just maybe get out of the way, I feel like they're doing so much more harm than good with the LGBT community, with people that are maybe believe the literal historicity of the church. It just feels more like more harm than good is being done. And if we can please just do good, why can't.

John Dehlin [01:39:52] And if you can't do good, just be quiet. Right.

Meg Abhau [01:39:55] Yes. Thank you. Like, if you can't just, like, help or do something about it, like, shut up and get out of the way.

Jake Abhau [01:40:01] Yeah. And that's why we need people like you, John. We really appreciate having a platform to be able to share all the stories. And, I mean, mega. You know, we go back, talk about mama dragons and what people don't know. There's, like, a dragon dad group as well that's on Facebook. That's, you know, we're kind of. We've got 60 to 100 members or so, but it's. There are places to go for support, you know, and it's. And, you know, go seek after it. Go find it.

John Dehlin [01:40:28] Beautiful. All right, Megan J abhow, it's such a pleasure to have you return to Mormon Stories. I know that it's difficult to talk about these types of meetings, especially when you have friendships you know, that are tied to it. But I, and I know my listenership are grateful that you would, that you would be willing to talk about these things, because I don't think things get better unless people talk openly. And I think sunshine is the best antiseptic, as they say. So thanks to you both for being willing to come on and tell your story.

Meg Abhau [01:41:01] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [01:41:04] All right, everybody, thanks for joining us. And please feel free to comment@mormonstories.org for those of you who don't know, we're a 501c3 nonprofit. Everything we do is because people donate and support the foundation. We're transparent with our finances. Everything's tax deductible. So if you want to see more programming like this continue, please consider a monthly donation to MormonStories.org and we'll keep trying to help as many people as we can find happiness, health and joy, either in or out of Mormonism, either one. So thanks everyone who supports us. Meg and Jake, love you guys. Please take care.

Jake Abhau [01:41:48] All right, thanks.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Jake Abhau [01:42:20] Wounded Heart, Anger or Mouth I draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.