Welcome and Introducing Today's Guest

Margi Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to Mormon Stories, Thrive Stories edition. I am your host, Margi Dehlin and I'm joined today by my co host of the day, John Dehlin. How you doing over there, John?

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Hey, Margi. I'm excited to be your co host for today.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:16] I am excited to have you as my co host. How's your morning been?

John Dehlin [00:00:22] You know, we juggle a lot of balls here at the Open Stories foundation, but I love my job.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:29] Let me point out something about my morning that you helped it be a joy. How's that?

John Dehlin [00:00:36] That sounds great.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:36] This morning John made a veggie stir fry. I feel like what was in that stir fry? Because it was magic this morning when I ate it.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Brussels sprouts, mixed vegetables, mushrooms, snow peas.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:54] Were there beans in it?

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Beans and rice.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:56] Beans and rice. It was delicious. So a little joy. Back to Thrive Stories though. So for those of you that are new to Thrive Stories, Thrive Stories is an interview series that is largely focused on healing and growth. So the idea is to pick an area of thriving, post faith, transition into, explore it. You can. They tend to be shorter, around two hours as opposed to the longer form interviews of Mormon Stories. And you can either nominate someone you know or you can nominate yourself. So if you're interested in doing that, we'll have a link kind of below that. You can click on Some sample areas of thriving could be what we're going to kind of focus on today. Parenting. Or it could be healthy marriage. It could be finding community. It could be rebuilding identity or purpose. What am I missing, John? What are some of the other ones?

John Dehlin [00:01:59] I don't know. Just anything that you think is a common area where people struggle in a faith crisis and where you think you have something to share. It can be anything. It's if you feel like it's broadly applicable.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:15] Yeah, I think one thing I would say is if. And it's very likely this might be true because we've just started this series. But if you feel like you're not represented in this series yet, do consider submitting. We would love to have as many stories as possible to reflect just sort of the diverse experiences that we all have. So we welcome you if you don't feel seen here yet. And I think we only have maybe seven interviews, so that's likely. Submit away. We would love to hear from you.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] And the instructions are in the description, either on Facebook or YouTube or the blog. You can click on. You can read the instructions and click on the link to apply.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:03] That's right. That's right. So I'm excited today because we will be focusing on an area that I view as one of the core areas that came up for me in particular amidst our faith. Transition is kind of a hot spot, a place that I felt a lot of emotion around and felt like I really leaned in wholeheartedly to rebuilding. So we will be exploring a few parenting interviews actually in the next few months because we know this is true. And we're just delighted to start off exploring parenting with our guest today, who is John Ogden, who is co founder of Uplift Kids. Welcome, John.

Jon Ogden [00:03:48] Thanks for having me.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:49] Thank you for being here. We're so appreciative. So for those of you who don't know anything about John Ogden, we're going to have just before, before we dive into the general interview, have him introduce himself. And that's kind of broad. So maybe I'll like narrow it down by saying just, you know, a short description about what brings you joy, what you love and maybe who you love and kind of where you are in this moment.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] And your book.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:20] Yeah, you can include that too, for sure.

Jon Ogden [00:04:23] Yeah. Uh, it's been a while. Uh, 26, 2016. I wrote a book called When Mormons Doubt, and it aims to help bridge divides when people believe or don't believe. Uh, and so centers on the timeless ideals of truth, beauty and goodness, saying if you can kind of agree on these ideals, hopefully you can pursue unity and in life. So that's the book. And then your question was what brings me joy?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:58] Yeah, and kind of like as a snapshot to kind of your life. Because it's a big question, right, to describe yourself, so just to describe a few things that you love, who you love in your life right now, and maybe a snapshot of what your life looks like.

Jon Ogden [00:05:14] I love my kids and my wife and I have two kids, they're 11 and 7. And I. My life day to day looks like a lot of reading and writing. I am, as part of Uplift Kids, I'm looking into the world's wisdom traditions and asking questions about how to parent when you don't have an orthodox view of the world. And so that's kind of my day in and day out is trying to figure out. I mean, I'm living the question. I, I feel like every, every answer I get yields more questions. And parenting is just a big project. And so that's what my day to day life looks like. And what brings me joy is finding just community and connection and with, with other people and with the past as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:12] That's beautiful. Beautiful. Well, So I kind of already outed the topic as being parenting. So why don't we just kind of start. How about we start in your kind of childhood, maybe where you grew up and as a boy. We'll just kind of do the younger years first. Just what you remember about family life and your experience of being in a family and maybe even what parenting style you feel like you experienced.

Growing Up in a Structured Utah County Home

Jon Ogden [00:06:47] I grew up in Utah county and the parenting style I experienced was structured and I really liked it. So it's very structured to the point where, you know, we had, we read scriptures every morning while having breakfast. We had the cracked wheat on Monday, trying to remember it. Oatmeal on Tuesday, cream of wheat Wednesday, French toast Thursday, and cold cereal Friday. I think I got that right.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] Was it literally that structure?

Jon Ogden [00:07:20] Yeah, yeah. It was like every single day was the exact. That was the thing that we had that day. And then like dinner right at. I think it was 5:30. I'm trying to remember the exact structure, but it was just like to the, to the dot.

Jon Ogden [00:07:36] And I liked it. I didn't know any. Anything that was different. And there was something really wonderful about the structure for the most part. As long as they didn't come home late from a friend's house, then it was just pleasant and it provided like a good foundation.

Jon Ogden [00:07:53] So between that and just attending the LDS church every single week, there was a lot of. There was a great sense of safety and a great sense of belonging to a ward community. Yeah, a lot of great memories. And I'll say, as I look back on as a parent now, like, I'm just kind of in awe at my parents ability to hold it all together so well.

Jon Ogden [00:08:24] They did so phenomenal and continue to be so phenomenal on so many fronts. Um, it's just trying to hold a house down and keep it clean and keep it, keep dinner, get dinner on the table and all these things. Just. It's a hard job. And yeah, my parents, at least as a kid, from a kid's. My child's child, I. They made it look so easy.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:52] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm hearing very clear expectations. Right. That you kind of know what's coming and in your day, quite literally.

Jon Ogden [00:09:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:04] And a lot of. Kind of. And that actually forms quite a bit of stability too. So feeling a sense of security and stability. And I hear belonging being a core component.

Jon Ogden [00:09:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:18] Did you have a big fan? Like what was your. How many siblings did you.

Jon Ogden [00:09:22] Two younger sisters.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:23] And you were the oldest. Okay. And did you. So what I'm hearing is that You. It felt quite comfortable for you and like a match. A pretty good match for your needs at the time.

Jon Ogden [00:09:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:37] In the child's eye.

Jon Ogden [00:09:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:38] At least. Okay. Okay. That's right. Are there any stories that come to mind from there, from those days

Jon Ogden [00:09:48] about structure?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:49] Yeah. Just remembering parenting or any situations that you were in or.

Jon Ogden [00:09:56] Yeah, a few. One that stands out is just my mom reading to us. She read widely and from a lot of different texts and encouraged us to read widely. I remember, for whatever reason, wanting to read every single Newbery Metal book.

Jon Ogden [00:10:16] I don't think I got through every single one, but just like this sense of, like, it's really important to read. It's really important to hear a variety of stories. And I didn't always comprehend what I. What I read, but that really instilled. That had a big influence on me and it made a big impact on my life. And I think, looking back, I've just recently realized, like, oh, there was a sense of humanism even at a very young age that I'm not only part of, like a Mormon community, but I'm also a human being who has my. My single story, but so does everybody else on the entire planet.

Jon Ogden [00:11:01] And so the Newberry Metal books, you know, they're. They. They try to. They're often dramatic and serious and probably to a fault, but they. They do. There's a quite a variety there in terms of perspectives of the world. And so at a young age, I was gaining those various perspectives and that. That, like I said, really still is alive in me today.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:27] So the world of books.

Jon Ogden [00:11:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:30] What I'm hearing, too, is that I'm sensing at least a family culture.

Jon Ogden [00:11:35] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:35] Which is quite different. Right. Than. And just being. It's different than, like, the religious upbringing, this idea of a family culture, and your parents actually having values, being values driven on their own. Like this idea of books. Right. Or humanism and story, that you have one story, but there are a lot of stories out there that. And even the dinner time, the. The importance of sort of gathering, eating. Yep. You know, and the moments that kind of emerge from those times that is ringing, which I. I love family culture. That was something that was always really important to me, and I viewed it as very separate from kind of religion. And I'm hearing that feels like it was important and tangible.

Jon Ogden [00:12:22] Yeah. It's a wonderful way to put it. I don't. I don't know if I thought about it like that, but yes, definitely there was a family culture. And I think probably through my child's Eye. I just thought this was the culture, this is what everybody did, and this is Mormonism. That probably, I probably wasn't distinguishing it much in my childhood. Yeah, this is family culture and this is Mormon culture. Just kind of like this is that culture. But yeah, yeah, absolutely. There was a family culture that, that I think is unique and I appreciate.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:54] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay. So if we were going to kind of play it out maybe through adolescence, a time where kind of, if we're looking at sort of the developmental stages, you know, children usually will individuate distance a little bit, explore maybe. And you know, I think sometimes in Mormonism it doesn't happen in quite, quite that way. But take us through sort of your experience of the parenting style and family culture. And if that played out in any particular way for you, it.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] And, and if I can just add to that a tiny bit, I, I think about, you know, as, as we tried to parent once, the church wasn't an option for us anymore. I realized how much of a role the church played as a parenting strategy. In other words, there are a lot of things that a parent looks to the church to be responsible for so that to, to.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] To fill all the things that a parent kind of wants their kid to experience. And, and then when you don't have the church, it's all of a sudden, oh, my gosh. There are all these things that I relied on the church for, and now I've got to figure out how to do that on my own. It's almost like homeschooling versus like public schooling. So in a. Woven into Margi's question, I would also love to hear your thoughts on kind of how your parents look to the church to, to, you know, provide you with the things that they felt was important for you as a parent.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] Yeah. Because as you talk later about your faith crisis and your own parenting, I imagine these themes are going to reappear. Maybe. Yeah. Does that make sense, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:14:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:14:54] Yeah. They really are interwoven. My dad was my Scout master, and so I was like, he was very good Scout master. He.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] He

Jon Ogden [00:15:08] did a extremely good job of getting people to Eagle Scout. Just a. Yeah, again, a phenomenal job of just saying, okay, here's here are the steps we need to take to get to.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] To.

Jon Ogden [00:15:20] To this place. And so this week we're going to do this. This week we're going to do this. This week we're break down. Yeah. And so, you know, I got me Eagle Scout at 13 and you just did, just did it systematically and so it really was like this blending of family and church culture where it was again just kind of one in the same.

Jon Ogden [00:15:41] And then working in, in the ward, it was again just kind of interwoven with the church culture. For whatever reason, I, I liked again that structure that was provided both by the church and in the home. And I was very interested in doing the checklist and doing it well, you know, okay, just give me the checklist and I'll do it, you know. And here I go through the, through the process.

Jon Ogden [00:16:14] And so I didn't have, I mean, maybe my parents would disagree with me, but I didn't have like a, a big rebellious streak. I was kind of like, okay, so I need to get my eagle Scout and then I need to be good in teachers quorum and I need to be good in priest quorum. And then I'm going to go on my mission right after I graduate from high school. And this is, you know, here I, here I go. I know the steps to, to take to get there. And I was just convinced that this is, this is the single way to happiness the plan and yielded a lot of good results in my teenage years.

Jon Ogden [00:16:51] I still think a lot of, a lot of good results. You know, just being very interested in seminary and fitting in with a crowd that generally wanted to do good. And I would say to, to a fault at times in my particular instance of yielding a self righteous attitude of like, okay, I've done the checklist and so I'm good and you who aren't completely me, measuring up to the checklist, you're bad.

Jon Ogden [00:17:29] And so it kind of created this binary worldview where if the checklist is right, then being against the checklist is wrong. And that is the definition of self righteousness. An inability to see, which is somewhat surprising given the things that I said about humanism and pluralism. An inability to see like, oh, there are actually many ways to live and live well.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:02] Yeah. During those years, do you remember, do you remember feeling like what, what are your thoughts and emotions that come up when you remember your teen years? Is it that, did you enjoy the checklist? Like, did. Was it a match for you that you were like, yes, achievement was joyful and I liked the process and I liked checking off the boxes or was it more I liked achieving, so I liked it when it was done and I liked, you know, that sense of accomplishment and that I was good and I got the approval and I got the love or like, how would you explain sort of your, your mental health and kind of, you know, Your feelings at that time?

Jon Ogden [00:18:45] I felt good about it on the whole. I liked the process of doing a checklist, and I liked having accomplished the checklist, and I liked the approval from finishing the checklist. Um, I was invigorated by it. Like, one example that I can give of this is the church changed their duty to God award. So at this time. And so, like, I earned my duty to God, and then they changed it. And I was, like, really excited that they embarrassing to say this. Like, really excited that they changed it because it meant that I could earn the new version of it. And so I went through.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:23] You could do like, double.

Jon Ogden [00:19:24] Yeah. And so I was like, I'm gonna go ahead and do this. And the same thing, like in seminary, I was like, okay, here are the scripture mastery scriptures. Okay, I'm gonna memorize all the scripture mastery scriptures. And I remember going to the seminary. Teachers, they. They had. They said that there was this contest, like, if you could memorize all of them, you could go and you could get a prize. And I went. And after doing it, I was like, hey, I memorized all these. What do I get? And they're like, oh, like, kind of like, we weren't serious about that. But they pulled down the teachings of Gordon B.

Jon Ogden [00:19:55] Hinckley book from the shelf, and they're like, oh, yeah, you get this. And they had it. But it was clear that they just like making up on the spot. But for whatever reason, it was just like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm in, you know, that kind of attitude. And, yeah, for better and for worse, that was the attitude.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Okay, so I. I have a little exercise I want to do just for fun. Is that okay?

Jon Ogden [00:20:21] Yeah.

Eight Dimensions Religion Played in Jon's Life

John Dehlin [00:20:21] Okay. So there's like, I think about like eight, maybe eight different dimensions that a religion often plays in a person's life. And I'm going to ask you to just briefly assess and I'll name each dimension, and I want to hear you reflect on. So there's three options for each. So what John Ogden wanted as a child and adolescent, what your family wanted for you, and then what the church wanted for you. And I want you to tell me which. Which was dominant in each of the domains.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:56] That's such a good question.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] That is that. Okay. Okay, so we'll start with one. So, like, and. And so what I'm about to list are the. The eight of the things that I think religions provide most. So the first, I'll just say, is identity. So were you primarily John Ogden first? Were you primarily An Ogden first, or were you primarily a Mormon first in your identity?

Jon Ogden [00:21:21] The inverse of what you just listed. Primarily a Mormon Ogden John.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] Okay, so you were a Mormon first and Ogden second. And then your individual goals and priorities for yourself came, or self knowledge or. Or pride of who you were came third, which means you. You were working to be as much of a reflection as what you felt the model Mormon was as possible, and that was your upbringing as it related to identity.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Is that fair?

Jon Ogden [00:21:52] It is.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] Okay, so, like, you're like, I'm a Mormon. Yes, I am. What I got to do to be righteous, I'll do that.

Jon Ogden [00:21:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] And, like, what your needs or your desires were didn't matter.

Jon Ogden [00:22:04] I didn't even think about it.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:06] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:22:06] I didn't even know that they existed. Apart from this. It's like, yeah, of course my desires are this, because that's all that there is. That's what I am.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] So.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:17] So at that point, it's like the self is merged with.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] Or there is no self or there is no self.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:23] That's kind of what I was. Right. It's just. It's more merged with the. In your developing mind, it is the church, and it is what your parents.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:22:33] I'm a child of God, and, you know, that's. That's my identity.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Okay, okay, okay. So that's identity. Second one, let's just say, is morality. So it's like what you think is moral, what your parents thought is moral, or what the church thought was moral. And was there any difference between two and three between your parents and the church?

Jon Ogden [00:22:55] No, I don't think there was different. I don't think there were differences. Yeah. So, yeah, I would say the same order.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Okay. Church first. But probably church and Ogden were indistinguishable, I'm guessing. Was there ever, like, with me, like, there were times where my dad would, like, say, hey, I know the church teaches this, but this is, you know, this other thing is.

Jon Ogden [00:23:21] Is right.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Did. Did. That was.

Jon Ogden [00:23:23] That wasn't a thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:24] That wasn't a thing.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] Okay, so morality was the church's. Was Mormonism's morality. Okay, that's right for you. Okay, so spirituality. Was spirituality the same. It was Mormon. Mormon first.

Jon Ogden [00:23:41] Yeah. Because spirituality in the home was family evening every week and scripture study every morning.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] So that was any personal spirituality that would have been different from Mormon spirituality. Kind of like your private spirituality that felt maybe off a little bit different than what the church was kind of wanting for you.

Jon Ogden [00:24:01] The closest thing was a high councilman one time Visited our ward and said that his favorite book was Marcus Aurelius Meditations. And I was like, I was really intrigued. Yeah, I was really intrigued.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] That's stoicism, right?

Jon Ogden [00:24:14] Yeah, that's stoicism. So I went to his house.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] That's another ism. That's a different ism. I don't know about other isms. That sounds problematic.

Jon Ogden [00:24:22] I went to his house and asked if I could borrow the book, and he lent it to me. But at that time, it was just another thing that incorporated into Mormonism. You know, it was given to me in the frame of Mormonism. And so it wasn't antagonistic or heretical in any sense. I was like, oh, this is another thing. This is the best of books. Study out of the best of books. And so even then, when it was more expansive, it was still like, oh, this is still a Mormon frame for approaching that.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Okay, how about community? Was your community the ward? Basically. Did your parents have much of a community outside of your ward?

Jon Ogden [00:25:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] So your. Your community was the church?

Jon Ogden [00:25:04] Yeah. And seminary. And seminary students at school? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Okay. In school. Okay. So your friends were either in your ward or at school, and were your friends Mormon?

Jon Ogden [00:25:16] Pretty much, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:18] And you grew up. Oh, Springville.

Jon Ogden [00:25:21] Yeah. So the seminary is, you know, on the same property. And that's my group of friends.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Okay. Okay. So this probably will be really quick. Meaning. Meaning of life.

Jon Ogden [00:25:33] Yeah, same was the same priority and purpose.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Purpose in life was whatever the. Whatever the church, which was. What if you had to describe, like in a one sentence, the elevator pitch of meaning and purpose of life for you as a Mormon?

Jon Ogden [00:25:48] What are the faith? Repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and enter to the end. Is that the.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] How about mission, temple, marriage?

Jon Ogden [00:25:56] Mission temple, marriage?

John Dehlin [00:25:57] Yeah, those are probably obey the commandments, all that stuff?

Margi Dehlin [00:26:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] Okay. And then resolution about existential questions, life after death, all that. Yep.

Jon Ogden [00:26:10] Yeah, same.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] Okay. I mean, I. I guess. I guess this is a typical orthodox

Jon Ogden [00:26:16] Mormon upbringing is very vanilla in so

John Dehlin [00:26:20] many ways, where your parents kind of can just say, you know, mom's gonna do household mom stuff, Dad's gonna work. And then you just get on the church bus. Get on the Mormon church bus. Go to youth, go to primary, go to church, have Mormon friends, stay in the Mormon bubble. The Mormon community is gonna just be how we raise you. Your parents weren't having to think about a lot or. Or really extemporaneously do anything. It's just we all got on the bus and we follow the plan. Is that fair?

Jon Ogden [00:26:56] Except for they Were they didn't have to think about it a lot. I think that they did think about. I think they thought about parenting a lot and even read parenting books even beyond Mormonism. And so as I look at their parenting approaches, it's like, I don't know if they were reading that Ayers. Is that their name?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:14] Oh, Richard and Linda. Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:27:16] But you know, when I read stuff like that, I'm like, oh, this is.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] This is so like covey stuff or iron stuff. So Mormon.

Jon Ogden [00:27:27] Yeah, exactly. So it's. Where's the. Where's the line? But yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] Well, they're thoughtful, Harvard educated kind of people.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:33] Yeah. I would say it is not a default parenting.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:38] That Richard and Linda are like very involved, thoughtful. Like it is effortful. That's what I'll say.

Jon Ogden [00:27:47] Yeah. So maybe with it, maybe the thing I'm pointing to there is like an educated LDS approach.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] It's like, so your parents get bonus points basically.

Jon Ogden [00:27:55] Yeah. As I say, I think they're phenomenal. I like their approach.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Yeah. Because they're reading extra. I mean, it's still in a Mormon frame, but they're do they're going beyond just the correlated curriculum to make sure they're on point. Being thoughtful. Yeah. Finding the best even Mormon sources, but best educated sources to enhance to. To make sure they're on point.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:18] Yep.

Jon Ogden [00:28:18] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:20] It does sound like education was a value.

Jon Ogden [00:28:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:23] In your family culture.

Jon Ogden [00:28:24] Yeah, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:27] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] I just wanted. I thought that'd be an interesting framing because we'll probably.

Jon Ogden [00:28:31] It is.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] We'll probably come back to all that

Margi Dehlin [00:28:34] on the other side.

Jon Ogden [00:28:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:28:37] And it keys up the other side. Well. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:40] Yeah. So I guess we could kind of play it through to kind of when you kind of had those first moments of where it wasn't working so well or a first flag and a supplement

Mission Doubts and Early Faith Struggles

John Dehlin [00:28:55] to that is like. Was it like, let's just say up through mission, were there any points where you want to go off track or you weren't on plan or things happened in your family that like started to penetrate the Mormon bubble? Or was it literally just like the Mormon version of Beaver, Leave it to Beaver from. From birth until temple marriage.

Jon Ogden [00:29:21] Not to temple marriage, but two mission. So I, I went on my mission like four months after graduating high school. So it was like not going to college just like right off go. Because I was among the oldest in my class. And so the mission is where the first moment when I was started to wonder like, oh, something isn't quite Right, Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:47] What was it about your mission that you feel like, do you remember what in particular?

Jon Ogden [00:29:53] There are many things. One is, on the second day of my mission, we tracked it into somebody who told us that Joseph Smith got into a gunfight. And I corrected him. I sat him down and read the Doctrine and Covenants. And I was like, this is the version. Like, I don't know what you're reading.

Jon Ogden [00:30:09] And then some months later, I was in church, an LDS church library, for P Day. I'm not sure why, but I like pulled down the, this history, the History of the Church by B H Roberts and it told a different. I don't know if it was that text, actually I can't remember the text, but it told like, Joseph Smith had a gun.

Jon Ogden [00:30:29] And I was really disoriented and I felt, I felt off because I just told this, I've been telling people, you know, generally my version of the story. And I realized like, oh, here's a church approved source that tells me that he did in fact shoot at people in Carthage jail. And so, yeah, it would make complete sense for somebody to, to interpret that as a gunfight. And so that was one moment. Others are like talking to people who told me about Joseph Smith's polygamy because I served in Ventura, California and so there are many evangelicals who had talking points against Mormonism and talking to them face to face and being like, no, you're wrong.

Jon Ogden [00:31:10] Like, similar to the guy who said Joseph Smith gunfight. And then realizing kind of down the line, Joseph Smith's polygamy, the Book of Abraham, you know, I kept, I.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:25] I

Jon Ogden [00:31:25] just assumed like, the narrative is 100% solid. And then I would find like, oh, wait a second, here's another thing, here's another thing, here's another thing. And so on my mission, I wrote to my dad and was like, this is really hard. And at the time I was in a state where I was just really struggling emotionally because of this.

Jon Ogden [00:31:51] Such that like the thought that I would hold on to is like, I'm gonna have breakfast in the morning. Because at least it's like looking back and it's like some form of sensuality to have like a tasty meal. And you're so starved on that front as a missionary that it was like the thing I was, I would kind of focus in on, well, at least I'll make a really delicious breakfast for myself tomorrow morning, you know, and kind of get through it.

Jon Ogden [00:32:20] My dad sent me a book of, of commonly answered questions or common questions that people have and answers to them. And then I also wrote a high school teacher who wasn't LDS and like, told her, my psychology teacher told her what I was going through. And she gave me the advice that, like, you know, you committed to serve and you should just focus on serving. And then when you come back, you can open up these questions if you want. And I really appreciated both of those. That letter from my dad in the book and the letter from my psychology teacher were enough to say, I'm just gonna focus on getting through the rest of this as well as I can and, like, call it good for these questions. I'm not gonna let them eat me anymore. And so that's what. That's what happened to kind of pull me through my mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:13] So do you feel like you kind of. You shelved those to get done with the mission? Is that how you might say that?

Jon Ogden [00:33:20] Yeah, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:21] Okay. But you, as you were explaining. So most of the holes came from outside sources, though, like people you were teaching or talking to people kind of outside the faith. Is that right?

Jon Ogden [00:33:33] And then finding that the inside didn't either, said, yes, that's true.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:40] That's right. So like church approved sources. You. You found out it was actually true

Jon Ogden [00:33:45] after telling people, no, it's not true.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:47] Right.

Jon Ogden [00:33:48] One other example that really rocked me was walking by this apartment complex and hearing some people on the top floor, like, talking about Catholics. And we stopped and listened. And then they switched from talking about Catholics to talking about Mormons. So we could. We found the door and knocked on the door, and they opened the door and their eyes, they just had wide eyes, like, whoa, we were just talking about Mormons. And here you are.

Jon Ogden [00:34:14] And they pulled us in and they said that they had just watched the South Part park episode where Joseph Smith is looking into a hat. And so it was the same thing again where I was like, no, you can't believe something you see on South Park. You ha, this is the real story. I'm gonna set you straight, you know? And then finding like, oh, he did look into a hat. So by that point I was just like, oh, my gosh, how I keep saying this and this and this and this, and then finding out like, oh, it doesn't add up.

Jon Ogden [00:34:47] So again, that was all the turmoil. And then that was like, I shelved it. I'm just gonna finish and just do my best to try to help people find values in life. If they wanted to get baptized, that's great. But if I can just help them in some way quit smoking or, you know, find Solace in some way. That's my goal now. And so that's kind of like the focus of my mission after that faith crisis.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:22] Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like it kind of shifted your approach a little bit because you were in. You kept kind of getting me sideswiped by information that you kind of changed your shift away from maybe the narrative. Did you feel. Because you didn't have a sense of confidence as much in that.

Jon Ogden [00:35:39] Yeah, absolutely. And it shifted me to a listening posture far more like, okay, I don't know, I'm just going to listen. Oh, you're seek sick, you know, as they're called, because there are many in Bakersfield. I'm just going to listen. What do you believe? You know, that's kind of my. That's kind of my default. And then, yeah, we would still teach the lessons, but a lot of my time was spent listening.

Post-Mission Life, Marriage, and Parenting

Margi Dehlin [00:36:03] Okay, okay, well, let's follow it a little bit. So you kind of shelved. You shelved through your mission. You get done with your mission and then take us to what happens next. Like, is there a point to which you. That either shelf breaks, you take it down, or.

Jon Ogden [00:36:21] Yeah. So I went to byu, was so focused on schooling and dating that I wasn't thinking about the Book of Abraham. Like, it wasn't coming up in my daily life as it. It doesn't come up, you know, generally speaking. So the hard questions just, like, not present.

Jon Ogden [00:36:41] And so I got a bachelor's in English literature, and then right after did a master's at BYU in writing. And it wasn't until just after that, I met my wife in the writing center at byu. And then we both did master's in English.

Jon Ogden [00:37:06] And it wasn't until. And then we got married a few years after that. This is around 2012, 2013. My best friend from high school left Mormonism, and then my sister, my youngest sister, left as well. And so at that point I was like, okay, what? I guess I need to revisit all these things that I ignore that I opened and closed on my mission. And so I opened it and I was like, oh, it's like they, you know, these things, again, are valid.

Jon Ogden [00:37:48] And I remember the moment that changed for me was around something that I could not figure out, even as a missionary, which is, how did Joseph Smith. How did the Book of Mormon come to be? I could not figure that out. And I was really convinced by Hugh Nibley's statement, like, you couldn't do this as a young person. Can you imagine a list like 70 things or whatever. I don't remember how many. All these things that you would have to do to be able to produce the Book of Mormon. And it wasn't until I read various accounts of how, of different theories about how it could have happened that I realized it clicked.

Jon Ogden [00:38:31] This is the final thing in my worldview that clicked, which was, yes, I couldn't write it. I'm not a genius. That doesn't mean that it's impossible for it to have come about a different way than Joseph said. And so it was that shift that I was like, okay, the dominant narrative isn't true. And then immediately like all the, you know, just wide eyed, what do I do? Type of questions.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:06] Yeah. Were you alone in that or was your wife. Did you end up having like an individual journey? Did you guys share?

Jon Ogden [00:39:16] Yeah, we shared.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:17] You did share?

Jon Ogden [00:39:18] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:19] So did you kind of go through it together?

Jon Ogden [00:39:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:22] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:39:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:23] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:39:24] My wife was more invested in the feminist side of things and I was more invested in the history side of things. But we both kind of came to consensus. All it took for me was she just asked me once, like, okay, just invert the genders in this meeting that we're in in church. And if you do that enough times, you kind of realize like, oh, yeah, this isn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:56] Yeah, kind of problem.

Jon Ogden [00:39:56] This is uncomfortable. If I inverted the genders every single meeting you're in, invert the genders and it becomes pretty clear like, okay, that's, that's valid too. In addition to the history stuff that I was wrestling with. And so we, we were essentially on the same page.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:11] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:40:12] Very quickly.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:13] Yeah. So I mean, was there a time I'm trying to think about how you might have conceptualized being parents before faith crisis. Like what you would have thought, this is kind of how it works, or this is what, this is what it's going to look like, or did you have that, did you have enough time to kind of formulate what kind of parent or what parenting would look like previous to that? And if so, what are some of the things that come to mind? And it can be beliefs. Beliefs that you kind of like. I had a belief around safety. Like, okay, as a mom, it's my job. If I do this, all the things, I'm going to do all the things, and I'm going to, you know, have them know the stories of the scriptures. I'm going to have them, you know, and then they'll be safe.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:03] And. Right. So that's a belief I had going into parenting. Did you have any kind of beliefs Going into, prior to your faith transition?

Jon Ogden [00:41:14] My child was 2 or 3, between 2 and 3 when it happened. And so I did have beliefs and they were, they were just like going back to the checklist, like there's a clear plan laid out and we follow the plan. I, I don't know if I would have been as enthusiastic about a mission even then, just because of the conflict that I had. I wasn't, I don't think I was like adamantly opposed to it, but it would have been like, you know, if my, if my kid is really wrestling, I might not push that really hard. Just because of the traumatic experience that, the trauma that happened in reconciling belief on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] You would characterize that as traumatic for you, the mission?

Jon Ogden [00:42:12] Yeah, absolutely, because everything was safe up leading to that point. And then on my mission when I realized like, oh my goodness, this narrative is not the dominant narrative. Doesn't. It's not true. It doesn't match. Um, yeah. Very, very traumatic to have a, that large of a shift in worldview right

John Dehlin [00:42:34] then and to be responsible for teaching it to others.

Jon Ogden [00:42:37] Right. Yeah, yeah. It's a combination. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] And it's not like your mission's going to be set up to allow a nuanced, progressive form of teaching. It's going to be like teach a conservative Mormonism or, you know, or go home kind of. I don't know.

Jon Ogden [00:42:52] I mean, I tried to listen as much as possible and try to open it as much as possible, but the goal is baptize. Like and if you're not baptizing, you're not doing your job. And so.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:02] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just thinking about it, the way it worked for you where you said you went so soon after high school, it's kind of like you're first introduction into the wide world.

Jon Ogden [00:43:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:15] Like that the books had been talking about that you'd been reading through the Newbery books or. And so here's your experience and you're having instead of a lineup, like it lines up with, you know, that whole childhood or you're having all this discord and it's like your first time into that would be deeply. I mean, I completely understand the, the trauma and you have no people. It's kind of like all the people that you would look to for support you. You actually don't really have them.

Jon Ogden [00:43:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:45] While you're on your mission. So. And you're kind of in a structure where you, you have those expectations again of you. So that really kind of makes sense as like your first adult breath. Being out there and being like, wait, wait, wait, wait. My reality and this greater reality not lining up at all.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:07] Yeah. Okay, so. Okay, so you kind of went into almost like a default, like, I'm going to do what my parents did, which I think is really common, like the way I'm looking to parent, except for that sort of mission where your experience actually is being kind of brought into account there too. So tell us about maybe what changed in that moment and what that was like, that pivotal moment where, you know, you're now in a different place, looking at parenting, what that felt like, what, what your fear was, what the emotions

Navigating Parenting After Leaving the Church

Jon Ogden [00:44:46] were, Confusion, like paralysis. I was trying to figure out, okay, what, how do you parent? Like, how do you raise a kid in light of all of this? And so it was just like a world of possibilities and like feeling paralyzed by how many possibilities existed.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:19] Yeah. Was that pretty long? Did it last a long time? Do you remember that sort of where it dissolves and you kind of have that sense of like everything you looked to is kind of dissolving. Was that a long process? Was it quite like. How would you describe that process?

Jon Ogden [00:45:36] I would describe it very long. I would describe it as I'm sitting here still in the process. I. So this is 2013. I thought, like, we. We still attended church every week, often only Sunday school or primary until like 2016, 2017ish.

Jon Ogden [00:46:03] Just because we still wanted to belong to a community, still wanted to, like, meet our neighbors and participate in that way. And so it, yeah, through all that time, it was like dicey. You know, how much do I say? How much do I not say?

Jon Ogden [00:46:27] How do I help people feel comfortable and feel, you know, the spirit in the, in the vernacular, in the setting? If I say this, am I just being aggressive and mean or is it helpful for growth to say this? You know, all those navigating, all of that, but mainly it was just like, I just want people, I want a community.

Jon Ogden [00:46:50] And I know that's one part of happiness. And I know this community and I know this language. And so I'm just going to keep sitting here, rest in the wrestle. And so, yeah, that's. That's what was happening during that time.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:05] How long. How long would you say you kind of maybe showed up on some level and kind of kept in the wrestle because of that community piece? If you had to kind of say

Jon Ogden [00:47:16] at least three or four years, and then it was. Even then it wasn't a hundred percent. No. Yeah. So it's, it's ongoing. Because the question of how do you have a community? How do you have belonging? How do you do it, especially for kids? Is a. In my opinion, very difficult question to answer.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:42] Yeah. Truth.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Why that face, Maggie?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:48] Because it's so true and it's so large and it's so. It is. It is such a loss. And then looking at it and trying to think of what to do next, it's just. It's heavy.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] Yeah. What I'm thinking of is, like, I mean, we also chose to bring our kids to Utah, and. And then I do this, and then I get excommunicated. And just all of a sudden, like, up until my disciplinary council, our kids were active. Like, we're talking beehive president, Laurel President 10, 15 years after we stopped believing.

Jon Ogden [00:48:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] But we're in Utah. Yeah. Like, it's either like, you know, the Mormon kids or like you perceive.

Jon Ogden [00:48:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] You perceive at the time, kind of bad kids or lost kids or whatever. And so, you know, what do you do? And we just went through, like, eight different things. The church just automatically provides.

Jon Ogden [00:48:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] And then all of a sudden, you don't have that. So how do you replace it? And then we've tried. You know, you may talk about this, but, like, even we've tried to build communities. Cause, like, how do you match a youth program where all these awesome adult leaders, if you. If you're in a good situation, a good ward, all these awesome leaders are like, when I was growing up, Mormon leaders. Just wanting my best, wanting my welfare, wanting me to achieve, wanting me to succeed. Yep. There to. When I'm down, picking me back up, leading these awesome youth activities, whether it's youth conferences or temple trips or scouting, it's just. You just show up and you get all that. Yep. If you're in a good ward. And friends.

Jon Ogden [00:49:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Right. And. And generally good friends, there's going to be exceptions, but generally friends that are trying to be honest, that are trying to do good, that are trying to go to college and. And have a family someday. And then all of a sudden that's just gone, you know? Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:49:54] Yeah. Well said. That's exactly the experience. And I had good young men's leaders. So. Yeah, it's. Yeah. It's really disorienting.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:04] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:50:05] And I thought it would be a lot simpler to figure out this next part. And I just am still in the question. I. And I basically, I'm just like, it's. It's hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:17] Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:50:18] That's the. That's the answer. That's the answer. I know for sure is that it's hard. Beyond that, it's like a couple things

Margi Dehlin [00:50:24] that are really interesting around kind of the loss piece. It's. It reminds me kind of a little bit of like where you love. Where you love kind of large and deep. The loss is large and deep.

Jon Ogden [00:50:38] 100.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:39] And I think this, you know, your experience with community and loving it and having such a good experience, that loss on the other side and then wanting to give that to your children. It's. It's. So what would I say? Influenced by your experience of it versus you can take someone, let's just say, like me, where the community piece.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:03] I grew up kind of all over and I'm introverted. And the community piece was never something that for me really stuck out. Right. So the loss of that is completely different. And that's what I think is so interesting about the journey is where we're so different as to where the holes really emotionally devastate us, I feel like. And it's. It feels really proportional to what we love, to what we really are. Experience with that thing. And then I was going to just say the tricky thing too, I feel like in these. Is that you're not just dealing with the loss of community, though I'm hearing you there and that it was.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:40] But you're losing community at the same time that you're also trying to navigate relationships now. Right. That are. That are changing because of your changing belief, your identity, which is changing because of your belief, your ex. This existential piece where you're like. It's the fact that we're. For many of us, it's simultaneous. It's that you're dealing with all those things at once.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] It's like trying to build a plane while you're flying it, you know, and you could fall out of the air anytime.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] Yeah. Stressful. Yeah. Impossible. Difficult.

Jon Ogden [00:52:18] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:20] Yeah. Do you have any. Do you have any memories or stories from. In particular for that. From that time? It can be with your kids. It can be, you know, just, you know, times that you remember that were really hard or that you were feeling really deeply around something in particular. Does anything come to mind that way?

Jon Ogden [00:52:42] Yeah. One of the driving things was just the belief that this was unsustainable for my kids. And so one story in particular was. I had just assumed that if I. If I just told my kid about, like, Joseph Smith looking into a hat, that he would know from a young age and it would just be like, oh, this is normal. There's nothing weird about this. And he wouldn't be shocked later on.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:07] It's like that. Inoculation.

Jon Ogden [00:53:08] Yeah, inoculation. So like, when he, when he was like five or six, I, I told him, he. He came home from church and he's like, are we talking about Joseph Smith? And I was like, and how he made the book of. How he translated the Book of Mormon. And he said.

Jon Ogden [00:53:23] I said, oh, did you know that Joseph Smith looked into a hat to translate it? Yeah. And he's like, he did. And he's like, yeah, he looked into a hat and there's a rock in the hat. And he's like, really?

Jon Ogden [00:53:35] And I thought he would just be like, okay. But instead he just started laughing. And I was saying. I was playing it straight, like I wasn't trying to make it a joke or anything. He just started laughing because it was weird. And it is weird.

Jon Ogden [00:53:49] And he's like, I couldn't help but just kind of laugh at his response, but I was like, okay, I, I don't see how this is going to be sustainable to keep, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:02] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:54:03] Spoon feeding him the, The Southern narrative. Yeah, the Southern narrative.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:08] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:54:08] And then he's getting a different narrative in church. So it was kind of like, oh, gosh. And this was, this was like, you got to figure this out. You got to figure this out. You got to figure this out. Kind of feeling he's not going to stop growing. I don't get to push pause and be like, okay, wait a second, everybody. You know, I gotta, I gotta reorient. And then we'll. And then we'll continue childhood, raising my child after I reorient. It was. It's all happening as you're saying, it's flying the plane as you're, as you're trying to fix the plane or whatever. You know, it's. Time is moving fast and you don't get a second chance to raise a kid. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] Yep.

Jon Ogden [00:54:46] Hard questions.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:47] So true. Yeah. So if you were going to describe kind of your grief at this point, would you. What. You kind of described it a little bit, but what did it look like day to day? Was it, Would you say it was confusion? Did it feel like. How would you describe it?

Finding Community and Support During Transition

Jon Ogden [00:55:06] I. Yeah, it was still confusion. I did find. I started. I attended a few secular My or Secular Buddhism workshops with Noah Rochetta. I found Lower Lights, School of wisdom, Thomas McConkey. And I've been involved in that for the past six years, since it started, Oasis in Provo, Utah. You know, I, I was part of helping launch that and I went with my kids. So we'd go to Church. And then we'd go to Oasis, too, and. Or, you know, some days, vice versa, just depending on the. On the time. And I'm trying to think if there's others. An awakening. Valley, Sangha and Provo. So I was finding. Oh, and Mormon Transhumanist Association. I was finding, like, quite a few groups that I could belong to, and I suddenly had a lot of friends from all these groups, and it felt good. Like, I had. I personally had a community.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:07] Yes. So you kind of started rebuilding, it sounds like kind of rebuilding what you had lost, reaching out. And what would you say that the connection to these groups gave you during that time?

Jon Ogden [00:56:19] They gave me camaraderie. So people commiserating in all of the groups, people are dealing with face shift. And so it's like, oh, yeah, you too? Oh, yeah, me too. You know, and so it's just like, yeah, we're all in this together. We're all trying to figure it out. And. And so there's that, like, I'm not alone. And then there is also, like, a renewed sense of purpose. So, okay, I don't have all the answers, but if I meditate, I can arrive at stillness and find some peace in that, and I can be present and I can live in the now. You know, that kind of practice that is really calming. So, like, day after day after day, I was feeling more and more great. Like, I felt really good to find so many people that I could be friends with and have community with.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] Yeah. To. To. To extend the aviation metaphor, it sounds like, you know, you put the oxygen mask on yourself and found community and friends, and that. That was an important part of stabilizing you, which then could.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:26] Such a good point. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] Could help you figure out then what to do about your kids. Yeah. I mean, was that with more calmness maybe?

Jon Ogden [00:57:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:33] Was that surprising to you? Was it surprising to you that you could turn to these outside sources and find the level of connection? I'm just trying to think how you grew up and what your experience was to that point. Like, do you remember? Was that surprising to you at all, or was it just. Did it feel really organic?

Jon Ogden [00:57:59] It was surprising because I had that narrative that you talked about, John, which is like, the people who aren't part of this collective are the bad. Are the bad people and bad kids. And. Yeah, I was finding people who were the best people who had ever found in my life. You know, just like, really vibrant, really spiritually attuned.

Jon Ogden [00:58:26] Many of them were still active in Mormonism in certain. In some ways, many of whom weren't. But the, the divide for me was no longer about that. Are you in, are you out? Like, are you active or you're not active? That wasn't. That wasn't the deciding line anymore. It was more like, are you. Are you pursuing ideals like, do you want well being? And are you willing to sacrifice for well being, whatever that might look like? And it looks different for so many different people.

Jon Ogden [00:58:57] So, yes, it was initially surprising. And then as I saw more and more, I was like, oh, yeah, there's actually a lot here. It became less, Less surprising. Yeah, here's another person. Here's another person.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:10] This is so interesting on some level because I, I think a shift that happened for me post transition, and it's kind of. I feel like lining up with what you're saying is this idea that I felt like for so many years I thought parenting was really solely about the child.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:28] But I think post transition, what I realized is it's really a lot about the parent. And what I mean by that is just like our expectations, how our narrative infuses our. Our children's narrative. How are, you know, what would I say? Familiarity and how comfortable we feel with our emotions, how that plays out in the parenting. And that's kind of what I'm hearing you say on some level is you had. You had this space to kind of pay attention to some of those things for a minute. Is that. Is that right? It gave you kind of this space to kind of process, get your bearings.

Jon Ogden [01:00:15] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm really immensely grateful for these organizations, these groups of people, especially Lower Lights, because that's what I've been most involved with. But yeah, it really gave me, like, spirituality that was independent of Mormonism. It wasn't. Not antagonistic. None of these groups are antagonistic to Mormonism, but it's like just a space to be independent and. Yeah, very, very grateful for all of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:50] Yeah. So can I ask you a quick question? Just around that and practice. I'm curious if, from any of those groups or just say, texts or things that you learned, resources within those groups, did any new practices arise during that time that helped you feel more stable, Feel a sense of any sort of techniques or practices that were born in this place of loss? Really?

Practices and Tools That Aided Healing

Jon Ogden [01:01:23] Yeah, a number of them. Most importantly, mindfulness meditation, the ability to observe what feelings are in my body and what's happening in my body. Oh, I feel tense. Oh, you know, just moment to moment. Oh, I keep having the same thought. That thought keeps arising, just noticing.

Jon Ogden [01:01:45] And so I'm still practicing to be more in tune with my body and my emotions. I feel like I haven't been very much in my life, just like completely attuned to what is arising. I've trained my brain to, to be very convincing in its narrative of how. What is what my life should be, rather than like, oh, what, what can I intuit my life should be, even if it doesn't match with what my rational mind says, like, is there. Can I live more intuitively?

Jon Ogden [01:02:33] This is a big part of parenting. Well, is being able to intuit. And so I struggle with that. As a parent. I have my ideas. And yet, like, the practice of mindfulness over these six years has really helped me start that journey of saying, okay, thank you thoughts.

Jon Ogden [01:02:54] But I'm not just a brain on a pole, you know, like, I'm a. I'm a human being that has a body and so I need to be more attuned to all of this.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:07] Yeah. So do you have a practice? So you meditate? Do you meditate most. Like, what does it look like for you right now? Um, knowing that it can ebb and flow. Yeah. Be different.

Jon Ogden [01:03:18] Yeah. Sam Harris is waking up. App Insight Timer. I've. I did two seven day silent retreats, many three day retreats and one day retreats, many six week courses on mindfulness. I will go to the Awakening Valley Sangha in Provo as often as I can for whatever reason. Like, my Sundays sometimes get more full than I want them to and I'm not able to attend. But whenever I can, I go there and meditate there. It's just like a sangha. Sangha means community in Buddhism. It's a sangha in the tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh. And so, yeah, I'm invested in all of these. Lately I've felt a desire to return to reading more just in the past like six months. So I've turned down my attention on like a formal meditation practice and like turned up my reading just because I'd kind of side tabled it. And I was really like, okay, I need to recalibrate.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:29] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:04:30] But it's still part of my regular practice.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:34] Yeah, yeah. It's occurring to me. That's it. That amidst this loss of community, among other things, that really yourself was born, you know, in some ways because it took that, it took the disintegration and it took on some level that conflict for you to emerge. You know what I mean? Because for so many years it lined up church. Ogden and then John was kind of last. But when they crumble when that crumbled away, it was John Ogden. Yeah. You know, you can't. You can't hide. And so it was kind of in some ways the birth of you.

Jon Ogden [01:05:13] Right. Which is exhilarating and terrifying and lonely because I, I don't know if you can really have well being if you're just you. I think, well being happens in community, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:32] But.

Jon Ogden [01:05:32] Yeah, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:33] Yeah. Okay, so let me think. So if we were going to pick this back up. So now you have kind of some, Some new practices, new community. You're learning a bit and you are rebuilding. How has this affected now your. Your kind of parenting sphere or your parenting.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] Oh, and to. And. And to just kind of add on. Like, I'm thinking about. This is probably true in Utah and in many places outside of Utah, but it's not like you just yank your. Especially in Utah, just, oh, okay. Your kids don't go to church anymore. Are you kids still going to church, like, even now? Do you want to say We.

Jon Ogden [01:06:18] We was there a transition for like three years. We went this past Easter and we actually went this past Sunday for the first time in a super long time.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] But like the weekly, you know, in the young, in the Personal progress, or in the Cub Scouts or in the Boy Scouts.

Jon Ogden [01:06:35] My. My son is friends with neighborhood kids. And, you know, I was like, okay, let's go to. Yeah, okay, with the neighborhood kids.

John Dehlin [01:06:42] And I, I don't. I had to ask that just to get a sense for where you are so that I could ask how you navigated it. Because at least for us, it wasn't just like, oh, we stopped going and, oh, hey, ward members, our kids don't need your outreach anymore. We don't need the cookies on our doorstep. We don't need you to come and ask them why they weren't at church. We're just, we're kind of stepping back as a family. And thank you very much. It's not like you just do that. It's like all of a sudden if their friends were all the people in the ward or at school or in seminary.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:16] Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] And word, it seems to me like word kind of travels around that, like the Delin family, the Ogden family, they're not kind of on plan. They got off the train. And then all of a sudden, sometimes, I guess there's Mormon kids that just, it's. It's business as usual. They don't care. Other times, it's kind of like you don't get the invites, you get cut out of the text strings. You you lose friends, worst case or worst case, worst case, people gossip about you and your kids are now viewed as bad or dangerous. And I mean it can be anything from like nothing changed to like really, really hard and painful for your kids.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] And so I'm just saying that that decision to start to individually pull back and even if your kids are still going and, and you're not going as much, ward council can happen and word can get around that. Well, John's. Let's make John a project and let's have the visiting teachers or the ministers or oh well, let's have other people step up to parent these kids. Because clearly John isn't, you know, doing his role. Like I'm just saying that like to individually step back or to have a family step back, especially in Utah, but potentially anywhere where you're Mormon is a non trivial thing oftentimes for your kids.

Jon Ogden [01:08:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] So I don't know if adding on to what you were asking Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:43] Well, why don't you just answer that one first and then we'll come back to mine.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] Okay. I was hoping that was adjacent. I didn't mean to override.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:50] Well, that's okay. Just do that one and then I'll follow up John's question.

Jon Ogden [01:08:54] The question is how do you navigate that?

John Dehlin [01:08:58] Was that an issue and, and did things. How was it? Is there anything you want to say about how it was for you and your kids as you guys started stepping back and then how you managed however it was?

Jon Ogden [01:09:10] So my, my kid wasn't old enough to really have a desire to like be friends at the time because.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:19] How old was your son?

Jon Ogden [01:09:21] He was seven, eight, you know, baptism age. Yeah. So we did baptize him and as

John Dehlin [01:09:30] a new, as a nuanced kind of non literal believer.

Jon Ogden [01:09:34] Yeah, but that was like right at the time that we were distancing and the, you know, he'll get invited to activity days and I'm happy if he goes. You know, it's great to be able to meet the neighborhood kids and do the activities and activities days. Leader is great. And so other than that, there hasn't been contact really.

Jon Ogden [01:10:02] You know, like three years ago when we did start, we stopped going as often or at all. The bishop came over and it was just incredible. He just asked if he could help. In the course of the conversation we found out that our swamp cooler was broken and he knew how to fix it and he went and got, got the stuff and came back and fixed it and it was like I was stalled on the problem and he just did it like really quick. And I was like, wow, this is like to me, this is Mormonism as best. It's like, here's a. Here you need help, I'm going to help you.

Jon Ogden [01:10:42] And he didn't even say anything, come to church or anything like that. He was just like very in tune to, you know, what was authentic and just went with it. So. Yeah, it's. Other than that though. No, no contact really. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:11:01] And was that, was that an issue? Were there primary leaders coming give dropping off Jesus and like saying we missed you at church. Why weren't you.

Jon Ogden [01:11:10] None of very infrequently. There was some thing at our door and I'm fine with that. I don't. Yeah, I didn't get wrinkled by any of that.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] So are you saying your kids were young enough to where stopping going to church, even in Utah county was. Was not very disruptive to.

Jon Ogden [01:11:27] Not very disruptive. And now. And now they're friend. Now my oldest is friends with some neighborhood kids. And so that's, that's thus the past few weeks, you know. Well, okay, we want to be friendly neighbors.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:40] So.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] So I hear saying if you're going to do it, do it young, before they're like, before they're teens and yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:11:46] Different story.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Intermingle.

Jon Ogden [01:11:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] Okay. Sorry, Margi, I didn't mean to.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:50] Oh, that's okay. So my original question was just, you know, as you have this space and you're connecting with these communities, how would you say your parenting to bring it back to parenting now? Like, how did it change? How did it affect your parenting and you know, even a little bit of. Of what it looks like.

Exploring Other Faith Traditions as a Family

Jon Ogden [01:12:15] Yeah. So we started going to different services. So like an Episcopal service, the Awakening Valley Sangha, the. The Hirakushan Temple in, in Spanish Fork. And so we would go to various services even as we were still going to Mormonism or not. You know, it was kind of like organically, yeah, let's do this. Let's. Let's explore this. Let's do this. Obviously that all shifted with COVID that that side of things became more difficult.

Jon Ogden [01:12:49] And at the same time we were also wondering like, what do we do as a family? Getting back to that, like, what's our. What's. What are our family values and what do we want to talk about as a family?

Jon Ogden [01:12:59] And a group of us, this is where a group of us at Lower Lights, we done our. The nine month program meeting five times or four times over the course of the nine months and four of us started talking about you know, we have all this stuff for grownups, all the organizations that I just listed, but there is just nothing for kids that really talks about spirituality, that talks about mindfulness. That's a community approach.

Jon Ogden [01:13:30] Is there any way that we could help bring this about? Not to have the answer? You know, I don't think there is the answer anymore. There's no the answer. You're not going to find it. But to be one node in a network that is trying to bring about well being and wellness and authentic spirituality. And so that's.

Jon Ogden [01:13:55] That's where we started talking about what has become uplift kids. And it is just like, how do we have conversations about these topics? You know, we're living busy lives day to day, figuring out how to feed our kids breakfast, how to get them to school when they get home from school, do your chores now, let's have dinner now maybe we can talk or watch a movie or whatever and go to bed. And that's like day to day to day to day to day. And often in that busyness, we just forget, like, oh, yeah, we actually, we should talk about kindness. We should talk about compassion, and we should talk about forgiveness and what it means to be a good human being.

Jon Ogden [01:14:35] And so that's where this idea of a lesson library and curriculum came about. And so in the home, in our home, it was like lots of prototyping. Let's try this, let's try that. What works for us? What doesn't work for us?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:49] Was it almost like creating a family culture?

Jon Ogden [01:14:52] Exactly. Huh? Yeah. So we actually wrote out, and maybe this is influenced by Kevi. Like, what is intellectual health? What is intellectual health in our house? What is spiritual health? What is emotional health? What is physical health? So we had those four and like, these are the components, you know, that make our.

Jon Ogden [01:15:13] These are our values as a family that we hold. And so to me, at least it. It was like, here's ground. I don't. The ground gave way. I don't have anything. But then further reflection was like, wait a second, I do. I still value reading widely. I still value physical health. I still value, you know, being part of a community, social health.

Jon Ogden [01:15:38] And so it's like the ground is still here except for the community punnet for kids. That is still the part that is incredibly difficult. But in the home, I felt like, okay, here's ground again. And maybe it's honestly not wildly different than the ground that I grew up in. It's not worlds apart from it.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:07] Right? Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:16:10] Some truth claims aren't the same, but the Striving for. Physical health again, sleep, exercise, diet, you know, intellectual health. We read widely. We, you know, I could go through the full list, but the principles are very much similar. And so what, what can happen is that we have this narrative of like, are you in or are you out? You know, that becomes the fixation. It's like, yeah, that is important because that's how a community, that's how a people is formed. Community is formed. And like, what if we weren't so fixated on the in or out question and we were more fixated on, you know, thrive, thriving, improvement, well being, just the root of spirituality, etc. So that's what it's come to look like in our home.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:10] Okay, so are there any like family traditions or rituals that have grown out of these values, would you say? Do you want to share a few?

Jon Ogden [01:17:21] Yeah, I'll share one that I dropped and then came back to, which was prayer. I, I dropped it in, in light of my faith crisis. And then I found that like there I'm just not doing anything. I'm just not expressing gratitude. I used to be having like a daily gratitude practice and I'm not. And so that's become again, one part of our ritual is just like a prayer.

Jon Ogden [01:17:49] Another is lighting a candle to start the lesson. And the lesson is just like light a candle. Another is like learning songs that are spiritual in nature. Not necessarily lds, but some lds, and having those still be part of our repertoire as a family is singing and music.

Jon Ogden [01:18:15] Meditation is one like just stillness, noticing the breath, noticing the emotion, naming the emotion. You know, this is a big part of the lesson library and curriculum is about emotional well being. And so it's like, can you name it? You know, can you really feel it in your body? Where is it in your body?

Jon Ogden [01:18:31] Can you think the emotion, whatever it is, if it's anger, can you recognize what anger wants you to do and then thank it for being there in your life rather than repressing it? So yeah, the two new, the two ones that are absolutely new are the emotional intelligence and the meditation. So those have been added.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:56] Yeah. Okay. So I feel like in the rebuilding this, kind of rebuilding you. Is it true? I was going to ask you kind of the hardest, kind of the hardest aspects of rebuilding around parenting in particular and then some, some really joyful, you know, victories in the process. Would community be one of the hardest? Would you say?

Jon Ogden [01:19:20] 100.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:21] So that's still the.

Jon Ogden [01:19:22] Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's so hard.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:28] Did you, did you try things and have them not work.

Jon Ogden [01:19:32] We've. Well, we've started testing what it's like to meet, to do uplift together with other families.

John Dehlin [01:19:41] Did you try like we, Margi and I took our kids to some Protestant churches or unitary universalist churches or we did Oasis for a while.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:48] Yeah, we did.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:49] It totally felt a lot like what you did, what you described and that.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] And those didn't work. Like, why not the Unitarian Universalists.

Jon Ogden [01:19:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:57] As an example.

Jon Ogden [01:19:59] I don't know about that one specifically, but I can say like with Oasis, to me it didn't feel like it had a tie to the past. Like there's roots in religion that are really deep and that's part of the awe or the draw of religion is like, I'm part of a people, you know the story. We have a text and there's this sense that we're meeting together for the purpose of having a spiritual experience of connecting to God, connecting to the divine. That's the reason we're meeting together. And I felt like Oasis was like about the latest in psychological well being, which is awesome, but that's a little different than awe and spirituality. And then the kids portion was just whatever it was. There was no curriculum of any kind and. And so it was loosey goosey. I can't complain. I mean it was, it was fine for what it was, but it just didn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:02] But it wouldn't fill the whole community for kids in particular.

Jon Ogden [01:21:07] Exactly. Um, and then there was another part of your question, John, that I'm trying to remember.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:15] Oh, other communities that you tried. Is that. Was the, was that the question, what you had tried in the way of trying to form community?

Jon Ogden [01:21:22] The thing that you, that I realized pretty quickly is like many of the critiques that I would have of Mormonism, I also have of other communities. And so. Like, it's kind of. You're kind of back at the same problem as you try. Like you get into Protestantism, it's like, oh, you have tons of truth claim issues with the New Testament, the Old Testament. And so you're kind of like, okay, I could, I could do this, but then I'm gonna have to still be guiding my kids through the hurdles of what this represents.

Jon Ogden [01:22:00] And then I do take my son to the Awakening Valley Sangha in Provo. But it's, you know, there'll be one or two other kids there. It's grownups other than that. And, but you know, we'll sit and do the meditation. And he, he likes it after the fact when I say, let's go Again, he's like, no, I don't want to go. But then after, he's like, oh, that was. You know. And so he likes. He likes it.

Jon Ogden [01:22:22] But it's. Again, it's not Buddhism, just as far as I've seen. Everything I've seen from Buddhism does not have a good sense of, like, kids, it's monastic. And so. Yeah, we've tried. Tried various things. They're working okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:40] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:22:40] Not phenomenally.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:42] Yeah.

Spirituality, God, and Building New Rituals

John Dehlin [01:22:43] I have to ask because you. You mentioned praying. Where did you settle on God? What are you praying to? And. And then I want to get right back to Mark. Yeah, just that piece you. When you mentioned the awe.

Jon Ogden [01:22:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] You have to have. You have to agree on what. What the source of the awe is.

Jon Ogden [01:22:59] Yeah. For me, it's the great mystery. And so there's nothing embodied the dowdy Jing says darkness with the darkness, the gateway to all mystery. So it's like the Dao, you know, the Brahmin in Hinduism. It's just the all. You could call it the Force from Star Wars. You know, it's just like something that you can't quite articulate but is present in life.

Jon Ogden [01:23:28] I think there's a book that I love called the Literal, the Little Book of Atheist Spirituality, where this French philosopher talks about spiritual experience, and he talks about walking through a forest and one night and just experiencing like the all is what he calls it with a capital A. And there's nothing beyond that. There's nothing that I can say authoritatively beyond that. But, dear God, not Yahweh. You know, it's like not the. Not the Hebrew version that I grew up with, but still wanting to reclaim that word and re. Reclaim. Re. Enliven that word

John Dehlin [01:24:08] for.

Jon Ogden [01:24:08] For lack of a better word. I would love a better word to exist, but maybe it does, but just as a way to touch into that which is beyond me, and that's what God is. So if that answers the question. Yeah, okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:29] Yeah. I was thinking about some of the things that you were sharing with regard to kind of the family culture rebuilding you've done. And I was noticing something how, for me, I'm curious how you think about this, but for me, so much of when I looked at spirituality before, it was like creating moments, like, create a scripture study. You would, like, appendage it, add it to life. Life was happening, but you would add it and it would have its kind of own space for that. Or you went to the building on Sunday to get the spirituality, or you went and had, you know, the youth group thing and you went and got it. For me it was like quite disconnected overall to life. Even prayer for me was like very structured. It was like certain times you do it or before the meal. And I think there's this fluidity of spirituality where it is life.

Jon Ogden [01:25:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:35] Like you don't have this sense that you're actually having to create this appendage. It's like it's, it's all a part.

Jon Ogden [01:25:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:43] It is part of life. And so it shows up in life. It shows up and you know, these times to connect to kindness, these things, times to connect with, you know, what it means to be curious or open to ideas that is integrated into your everyday. So spirituality is life as opposed to a place you go or during from six to seven when you've got the book open and you're reading the scriptures together or is that your experience? I felt that when you were explaining it.

Jon Ogden [01:26:19] Yeah, yeah. I love that word life. It is life. And that's one of the words that I sometimes use when I talk about the divine, just life, you know. And I find power in that. I agree that spirituality is life and it's about observing what is happening and being attuned and present to what's happening. And I think that there that both the structure and the, both the form and the formless are part of spirituality. So the formlessness is just. We're not going to try to do anything as an add on. You know, we're just going to be fully attuned to life. I think that's a really beautiful approach to spirituality and I think it's worth having touchstones, just touch points rather where you just say, hey, are we remembering? You know, on Sunday morning we do this, whatever it might be to remember because we. It's easy to forget.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:21] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:27:21] Get wrapped up and be mindless.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:23] So like the idea of ritual.

Jon Ogden [01:27:26] The idea of ritual and so it could take the form of a sit down conversation, could take a form of hey, on cinema. We're going to gather together and sing some songs. You know, just touch points.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:41] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:27:41] And so that's what we hope happens with uplift. However, however families take it and they do take it in a bunch of different directions, which is great.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:49] They get to personalize it. Right?

Jon Ogden [01:27:50] Personalize it. Exactly. And some do the. We're still the structure. We're going to do this every week at the exact same time. And this is what we're going to do. Great. That's if that's what works for your family. Great. Others the parents will just read. We have like A preparation guide. They'll just read it and then they'll just weave it into their natural conversations throughout the week. And I think both approaches are beautiful and it is kind of like personal to each. But yeah, yeah. It is ultimately about being attuned to life.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:21] Yeah. So how are there certain resources for you that have felt pivotal to your parenting journey in particular?

Resources That Helped Jon's Parenting Journey

Jon Ogden [01:28:32] Yeah. One is a book called the Spiritual Child by Lisa Miller, who's a professor of psychology out of Columbia University. And she does neuroscientific research and studies spirituality specifically. And so she points to her studies and others where the science is emerging and it could turn out like all of this is baloney, you know, as, as time goes on. But the emerging science is showing that there's a correlation between spirituality and wellbeing and that when people are having a spiritual experience, there are certain, there's certain activity in the brain and those that activity in the brain is correlated with higher well being people, they've, they've, they're mapping it to say like, okay, what's happening in the brain and what does it look like and what does the opposite look like of certain problems, mental illnesses, you know, and they can map, they're starting to map what different states of the brain look like.

Jon Ogden [01:29:31] And so her studies show that spirituality and religion often overlap, but they don't always. And she's saying that when families have spiritual experiences together, kids who have heightened spirituality have lower rates of depression, lower rates of anxiety, lower sexual impulsivity, and lower rates of drug use. And so it's, it's really helpful to me to see that this is being validated.

Jon Ogden [01:30:06] It doesn't mean make them scrupulous, you know, as religion sometimes can. Rigid, rigid. It means really pay attention to the spiritual, this, what's happening spiritually in the home and it's going to yield real world benefits for you. And so just seeing the data that Lisa Miller has put out and others, Andrew Newberg is another one who studies it.

Jon Ogden [01:30:34] LDS person Michael Ferguson at a Harvard Divinity School is also studying it. So they're the emerging neuroscience. When I read about that, that's, that's really influenced me. Another is like classics of like how to talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk. It's just a staple of parenting. It's very helpful.

Jon Ogden [01:30:57] Very good book. I can't remember her last name right now. Shefali wrote the Awakening Family and the Consciousness. That approach that you mentioned, like changing as a parent is, is also really beautiful and part of it. So yeah, Those. Those are a few of the parenting books. And then I still find value in, like, the heirs. Covey. The air. Covey. I don't know how to pronounce it. E, Y, R, E. I think it's there.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:27] I don't know.

Jon Ogden [01:31:28] Covey approach. Like, I still think that there's a lot of value.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] Is there a main book?

Jon Ogden [01:31:33] I can't remember the name of it right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:35] They used to have. Wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] So I have seven Habits of Highly Effective Families. Is that it?

Jon Ogden [01:31:39] That's Covey's.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:40] And then theirs is like teaching your children responsibility. They have. They have kind of values based.

Jon Ogden [01:31:47] There's one that covers 12 values.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:49] Oh, really? So you could maybe look at that one. They have, like, preschool ones called, like, the Joy School or Joy School. That's right. Yeah. Let me ask you this. When you. When you're talking about spirituality in your home and for your children to feel, what do you mean? What does that mean to you?

Jon Ogden [01:32:12] It means, to me it's related to stillness and it's related to gratitude. We talk about six spiritual emotions that. That come about as we practice spirituality. Peace, gratitude. Ah, connection, joy, and love. And so those are all still pretty abstract. Spirituality is abstract because it means connection with the ineffable. And so you, by definition, you can't fully put it in words because it's an experience that you either failure or don't. And. But you, you know, when you feel it. But then the emotions are a little bit, just slightly more concrete. And then talking about the. The experience of getting to those emotions, often it requires things that aren't necessarily pleasant, like meditation or service or, you know, what are some other ones. Singing is pleasant. Um, so, yeah, being vulnerable, you know, another one. So, yeah, getting a little bit more concrete to point at something that you can't fully put into words.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:30] Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's where I have found the most power when it comes to kind of values, is really being curious about the value and what it means to me, what it means to my children, which. It can mean really different things to different people. And then how. What it looks like to live it in a way that people want to, you know, children want to live that value. And that becomes sort of the practices is sort of how do we live that value? What would it look like? What are the activities we would do or. And really making it something that's less of a should or an aspirational thing. And coming from this place of. We would want to do that. Yeah, that would feel good if we did that.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:22] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:34:23] Yeah. It's beautiful.

Introducing Uplift Kids and Its Origins

Margi Dehlin [01:34:26] Well, great. So I feel like now might be a good time to lean into the slides as we talk about kind of uplift kids and a little bit of what that looks like. And then I might have a final question after that, but we can go ahead and lean into that.

John Dehlin [01:34:42] Yeah. And let me just say, like, you know, we never want Mormon stories to be kind of like a product placement kind of thing. And I try and make sure that every episode isn't just like, watch this movie or read this book or like, buy this curriculum thing on the one hand. And on the other hand, we need resources. We do.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] So in bringing you on, it was one. Because I've known you for many years and I respect you and I know you're well respected. So just wanting to hear your story and get a sense of you and how you've navigated your journey, and that's kind of what we've done so far. But I also know that this resource that you've developed or trying to develop for kids comes from having explored many of the same areas that Margi and I have explored, except you've been able to dig deep and come up with something that. Where you're trying to be a part of the solution.

John Dehlin [01:35:41] So if, if, if somebody in our community or elsewhere is like, coming up with a high quality solution that we think could help be part of the answer to the journey that we're all having, well, heck, yeah, I'm going to promote it.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] So this isn't just like an infomercial. We asked you to kind of put together some of the principles that guide the product that you're offering, and then we're okay with you letting people know if they want to learn more. So that's the spirit of what listeners and viewers. That's the spirit of what you're about to hear.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:14] Wait, can I say something really quick, please? So one thing that I just feel really strongly about is this is why we do stories, right? Because the idea is not to be prescriptive. In no story that we highlight is the point that people should duplicate or we're saying do this thing or this should work for you.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:34] Really, it's just touch points on people's journeys. And if. If it happens to find you in a place in your journey, you won't feel alone. And you can kind of see the resources are kind of. And here's the thing, like, options are great and options that appeal to a lot of different personalities in different places. You know, in, in. In People's, even family life and ages, they're good. Options are good. So I hope to give you more stories and more options with this idea of, you know, you get to decide for you. And that's. That's the beauty of this. But options are good.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Yeah. So if you're comfortable, like, what, What's. What is uplift and what. What problem are you trying to solve? And then talk us through kind of the core philosophies.

Jon Ogden [01:37:31] Yeah, sure. Uplift is currently a lesson library and curriculum, and it covers lessons that they're really conversation starters. And so we curate videos and we create activities, printouts. We have emotion cards, stuff like this that helps families talk about values whether they're in or out of a religion. We. We welcome both. And we find that many of people who use it are still members, but they're unorthodox. You know, they don't quite fit in. And we find that many aren't religious anymore. And so it's kind of a way to say, like, regardless of belief, can we unite around these values?

John Dehlin [01:38:18] Okay, yeah, that sounds great. So do you want to kind of talk us through these slides?

Jon Ogden [01:38:25] Sure, yeah. And I'll just echo what both of you said. As a parent, I really would love to learn about more resources. So if there's anybody listening to this, please reach out and let me know. I would really value any range of resources from any. Anybody who's working in a similar space on a similar problem. I view uplift as a resource that is helpful for some personalities, as you said, and might not be as helpful for other personalities. It's fine. But as a parent, I. I really want community. And so if anybody is also doing this, I would love to hear what. What you are doing and listen to you as well.

John Dehlin [01:39:06] Okay.

Jon Ogden [01:39:07] So, yeah, we can go ahead and look at the principles. So there were seven principles that we talked about when we were creating uplift. And that's what. That's what we'll show here. So the first principle that we talk about is that we can value your inner compass. And so it starts inside rather than external. And we really want kids to be able to learn what it feels like to be in tune with their true self. And so again, that doesn't have anything to do with belief or disbelief. You know, it's not like, get in tune with a particular version of deity. It's like, no, get in tune with your inner compass, your conscience, and be.

Jon Ogden [01:40:00] Have integrity. Yeah, like, learn how to have integrity. I shouldn't do that, and I know I shouldn't do that because it's not aligned with my inner compass. This is a term that Lisa Miller uses in her work. And so we've. We've integrated it in our work as well.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:17] Inner compass.

John Dehlin [01:40:19] So I got that. I got the slides working now.

Jon Ogden [01:40:21] Oh, great.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] So did you want to start with this one?

Jon Ogden [01:40:24] I'll just mention that this is showing that this is. Everybody, Everybody who's listening knows that this is a problem.

John Dehlin [01:40:31] And what is for those who are just listening.

Jon Ogden [01:40:34] Yes, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] There's a listening.

Jon Ogden [01:40:35] Yes, thank you. Church membership. Over time, us adults asked, do you happen to be a member of the church? Church, synagogue, or mosque? It's dropped from 74% in 1990 to less than 40%, 47%. Sorry. Today. So less than half of people now are doing this. And so those who want to pretend this isn't happening, I think are on a losing battle. Like, we have to acknowledge it's happening.

John Dehlin [01:41:04] So you're saying even if you're raising your kids Mormon.

Jon Ogden [01:41:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] Chances are your kids are going to leave it.

Jon Ogden [01:41:10] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:12] Yep.

Jon Ogden [01:41:13] And that is what's, again, what's driving me is, like, that unsustainability. Mormonism is great, but I don't see it being sustainable.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:19] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:41:20] And so just have to accept, like, be honest about that fact and then maybe.

John Dehlin [01:41:25] Sustainable for some.

Jon Ogden [01:41:27] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] For a minority.

Jon Ogden [01:41:29] Yeah. When I say that, I'm talking about my kids, Seeing how my kids are interacting with it, I'm like, okay, it's not sustainable. I need something. I need help. I need resources. Thus, you know, this is what's leading us to uplift.

John Dehlin [01:41:43] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:41:44] So Rachel Held Evans is a Christian writer. She said, I knew how I didn't want to raise my two kids, but I wasn't sure how I did want to raise them. You know, in the wake of her faith shift, I think a lot of parents can relate. So here we're talking about giving your kids an inner compass, starting with this. Everybody, regardless of belief, has access to your inner. Your own inner compass. And so how do you. How do you train a child to really be true to that?

John Dehlin [01:42:13] And that's almost the opposite of how you describe being raised as a Mormon.

Jon Ogden [01:42:20] Yeah. It's interesting, the overlap there, because I think it's. There is an element of if you feel the spirit, you want to feel the spirit. And I think there is overlap between inner compass and feeling the spirit. And so

John Dehlin [01:42:37] it's what people described as. As feeling the spirit.

Jon Ogden [01:42:40] Exactly. Yeah. So it's not antithetical, but it's not a one to one relationship. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:42:48] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:48] And it is internal. It is connection to self.

Jon Ogden [01:42:52] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:52] As opposed to authority or inner compasses.

Jon Ogden [01:42:57] Right, Yep. And so in the institution, institutions generally, but Mormonism specifically wants to have the narrative that if you feel the spirit, that means that the institution is true. And that's not necessarily what that means. But that doesn't. That's not to say that you shouldn't feel the spirit. Right? What. What? It's called feeling the spirit. You should. You should want more of that in your life.

John Dehlin [01:43:22] Just elevation, emotion.

Jon Ogden [01:43:23] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:25] And awe in this sense of wonder.

Jon Ogden [01:43:27] Yep. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] It's just inspired and uplifted.

Jon Ogden [01:43:31] Yep, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] Uplift.

Jon Ogden [01:43:32] Yep. There you go. There you go.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:36] We're doing the work.

Jon Ogden [01:43:37] Maybe not subtle enough. Yeah, that's it.

John Dehlin [01:43:40] Okay.

Jon Ogden [01:43:42] So, yeah, here's the seven insights. We've been working on it for two years. You know, here are the insights we've gained on the way.

John Dehlin [01:43:47] So these are like seven pillars.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:49] Yeah, I love this.

Jon Ogden [01:43:51] Yeah. So families can take it. Like you said, if a family isn't interested in uplift, so be it. But hopefully these seven principles are helpful even if you don't have any interest in uplift.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:44:03] Okay. All right. So principle number one.

The Seven Pillars of the Uplift Framework

Jon Ogden [01:44:07] Yep. So you have inner authority. Call it conscience, nature, spirit, source, true self, the divine. You call it God. Whatever word you use, you have direct access to it. In a word, this is spirituality. So defining. Defining spirituality. And this is, again, I want to emphasize, it's for non believers and believers. So we have Sam Harris here. He says the deliberate efforts some people make to overcome their feeling of separateness,

John Dehlin [01:44:35] that's spirituality for Sam Harris.

Jon Ogden [01:44:36] That's spirituality for Sam Harris.

John Dehlin [01:44:38] Overcoming the feeling of separateness.

Jon Ogden [01:44:40] Yeah. Huh. Yeah. So I know a lot of post Mormons rankle at the use of spiritual.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] The word.

Jon Ogden [01:44:48] The word. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:49] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:44:49] It comes up a lot. Yeah. It's very triggering for people, and I sympathetic to that. I understand that viewpoint, but we're talking about it in a way that could be 100% secular in its approach. And Sam Harris is one person, but the other neuroscientists that I talked about are also others. Brene Brown says spirituality is recognizing and celebrating that we are all inextricably connected to each other by a power greater than all of us. So again, it's like connection. You asked earlier what the definition of spirituality is. You can't fully put in words, but if I were to choose a single word, it would be connection.

Jon Ogden [01:45:27] It's about connection and then a connection to each other. And connection to whatever is beyond us or bigger than us, even if it's just death or even if it's just nature, so be it. You know, that spirituality and then the benefits of spirituality are, have been studied. This is the emerging science that Andrew Newberg, who's a professor neuroscientist, says that spiritual practices, even when stripped of religious beliefs, enhance the neural functioning of the brain in ways that improve physical and emotional health.

Jon Ogden [01:46:00] So when we were first starting out, some of the prototype families that did it with, they said, well, why are you emphasizing spirituality? Why don't you just talk about emotional health? And it's a fair point, but we really feel like there isn't. There aren't a lot of resources for those who want spiritual health. And so we're focused on this because we see if you have really strong spiritual health, you'll have benefits physically and emotionally.

Jon Ogden [01:46:28] Lisa Miller, she says children who are raised with a robust and well developed spiritual life are happier, more optimistic, more thriving, more flexible, and better equipped to deal with life's ordinary and even extraordinary traumas than those who are not. So that's the neuroscience.

John Dehlin [01:46:45] She's a Columbia University.

Jon Ogden [01:46:47] Yeah. Professor of psychology.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] Okay, so that's point one.

Jon Ogden [01:46:53] That's my one.

John Dehlin [01:46:54] All right. What's point two?

Jon Ogden [01:46:56] Point two is that you have access to science and wisdom. So in the midst of a faith crisis, you can feel like you don't have anything. But if you take a step back, you can see like, oh, there's actually a ton of resources out there that can serve as a foundation for my life now. And so this neuroscience, you know, academic studies on growth, mindset, emotional intelligence, cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, all of that is there. And it's, it's a foundation, really strong foundation for living a life of well being.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] So are you saying your curriculum has dbt, CBT built in, like exercises from dbt?

Jon Ogden [01:47:35] Yeah. So one of our founders is training to become a therapist right now. And so we pull from her. Another is counsel counselor at schools. So she has a master's in counseling and works with kids that are dealing with psychological problems. So we're pulling in all that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:47:57] So dbt, for those who don't know, would be skills or tools for emotion regulation. It was developed for people with borderline personality disorder, but it's just mindfulness meditation. Breathing.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:08] Yeah. Like every human naming your.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] Every human naming your emotions.

Jon Ogden [01:48:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:48:13] You know, distress tolerance.

Jon Ogden [01:48:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:17] You know, how to cool down.

Jon Ogden [01:48:19] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:48:19] That kind of stuff.

Jon Ogden [01:48:20] So we don't, we don't say, hey kids, we're going to learn about dialectical behavioral therapy. You know, it's not the approach that we take. We do it at their level so they wouldn't know, oh, this is dialectical. They would have any idea that that's what we're doing. But we're definitely pulling from all of those resources.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:37] I love that so much.

Jon Ogden [01:48:40] And then the other one that often gets neglected in a secular culture is like stoicism, Daoism, Buddhism, Christianity. So this is wisdom. And one approach is to say, and I empathize with this approach, we should just get rid of all these ancient books because they're misogynistic and they're brutal and they're horrible and they are in so many ways. And yet there are gems that ancient human beings did have some insights into the nature of spirituality and life that are still worth keeping with us. So we say science and wisdom together, meaning the present understanding of science and the past really make for healthy approach to well being.

John Dehlin [01:49:29] As far as I'm concerned, Stoicism is solid. Taoism is super solid. The Dao te Jing solid. I don't know any. Like I studied the Dao de Jing. There's, there's no God talk or holy ghost talk. It's literally just like how to navigate mental health principles, Secular Buddhism, same, same deal. Yeah. And even like Eckhart Tolle draws on Christianity, not kind of like corporate Christianity, but just kind of core Jesus teachings.

Jon Ogden [01:49:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:57] The kingdom of God is within, you know, that kind of thing can't be kind. You know, be patient, love others, serve others. Yeah, that's all, that's all. You know, listen, forgive people. That's all kind of solid stuff.

Jon Ogden [01:50:12] Yeah, Yep, that's it.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] Okay. And then meditation, singing, gratitude. Right, Those are all wisdom traditions.

Jon Ogden [01:50:19] Yep, absolutely. So speaking of the Dao de jing, the wisdom includes not knowing. And I think this is really important coming from a place where you're, I love this. I know the church is true, I know this, you know, that kind of thing.

Jon Ogden [01:50:34] Wisdom can have some of that stance where you do have confidence, but it also has this opposite where you're just not sure. So in the Dow Teen, this, in this translation says, do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself?

Jon Ogden [01:50:56] So wisdom is inviting us to turn into our inner compass and say, you know what? I'm being told to do this, but in my heart of hearts, I know that for me this is the way to Actually, best help the world, whatever that might be.

Jon Ogden [01:51:15] You really have to come to stillness because the voices are going to tell you one thing. You know, the institutions will tell you, do this, do this, do this. And that may or may not be right. And I'll add here, the inversion of what the institution says also may or may not be right. So it's important to recognize, like, you can't, you can't get to truth just by saying, okay, here's the checklist. I'm just going to do the opposite in leaving religion.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:44] Oh, like the reaction to.

Jon Ogden [01:51:46] Yeah, the reaction to religion. It's not, that's not well being either. You're still, you're still living a life that's based on a checklist.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:52] It's so true. You're still being controlled by the checklist.

Jon Ogden [01:51:56] Exactly. It's independent of the checklist. But you can also, you can dialogue with the checklist and then come to your own conclusion. You know what? For me, I'm actually not going to do this point.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:06] Yeah, this reminds me a little bit of Rilke, the live. The question.

Jon Ogden [01:52:10] Yep, exactly. Yeah, it's such a beautiful line. I really love that line. And then the third one to move on is you can make sense of growth. So models of development help us understand how our worldviews evolve. So there are many stages of faith, valor stages of faith. And maybe your listeners are all familiar with this one from former pastor Brian McLaren. I really like it. It's probably my favorite of all the models just because it's so simple. So he just has four stages. Simplicity, complexity, perplexity, harmony. These are the four stages of development. And this quote here is about third one, perplexity. And I think a lot of people can relate to this who've had a faith crisis or.

Jon Ogden [01:52:54] And awakening. It says, unable to find a community that fits their stage, many stage three people have only one option. They must walk out their questions alone. If they find community at all, it tends to be among alienated individuals like themselves.

Jon Ogden [01:53:11] I think a lot of people can relate to this. This is the, these are the people who I met in the organization that I belong to. We're all kind of living it out alone, looking for some semblance of community.

John Dehlin [01:53:25] And as I'm, as I'm kind of looking at this, this model of simplicity, complexity, perplexity, harmony, it's reminding me of Fowler stages of faith. Because you start out with this. It doesn't matter what religious tradition or secular tradition you're raised in, you've got this kind of, this is the truth. Your parents have to raise you in something so they, if you're fortunate to have parents, they give you a worldview to start with. And then that's, that's simplicity. And then at some point, whether it's, it's in high school or college, you realize, whoa, things are more complex than the world view my parents gave to me.

John Dehlin [01:54:00] And that's not, you know, and so that's sort of the discovery of all these different options, which can be fun. But then all of a sudden you're like, whoa, where do I go? Nothing is like, what's, what's solid? What's, what's the answer?

John Dehlin [01:54:17] There's conflicting things. If I choose this, it's exclusive of that. Some of these values, you can figure out a bunch of values. But then maybe some of the values conflict with each other. Like autonomy, but community, like kindness, but boundaries, you know. And so the fourth stage is harmony, where you learn to have complex values, but you find a way to harmonize them in a way that works for you.

Jon Ogden [01:54:43] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:54:44] I mean, that's kind of how I. So you're saying your curriculum would help a kid identify those stages and, and work them through those stages.

Jon Ogden [01:54:55] Yeah, and anticipate that life is a process. You know, you're, you're going to have a worldview. And that's great. You know, I can accept my 6 year old worldview 100% awesome. And let them know part of growing up is changing. You know, if they can get that sense and they don't feel like, oh, I don't know, how come it changed? You know, if they know change is part of the process, they don't feel so disoriented when it happens.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:23] I see why this is one of your favorites.

Jon Ogden [01:55:25] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:26] Because I just see it in your story so much. Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:55:32] And then fourth, you have individual strengths and so lean into your strengths as a parent and recognize the individual strengths of each of your kids. And so this is the idea that you need to be you and you're not made to be what everybody else should be.

Jon Ogden [01:55:55] So one example of this is Strengths Finder where you say you try to find your five top strengths. And it really helped me when I took that test just because made me love others more than I had previously. Because in the, in the LDS model, again, going back to this, the story, there's the sense of when I was doing my duty to God. Like, okay, if you're doing this checklist, if you're doing it well, then you're a good kid. If you're not doing it well, then you're not as good. And yet this. This made me see, like, okay, that's first. It helped me love myself because I was ashamed of my self righteousness, because that's wrong.

Jon Ogden [01:56:33] And it, like, I have no defense of that, but it helped me see, like, you know what? That was my personality. And I can love my personality. And because I can love my personality and I don't have to have everybody have my personality, I can also love your personality. And so it really feels foundational to the idea of love.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:56] Yeah, yeah. And it's such a great. I also see that it's a buffer to perfectionism, this idea that you have to do it all and do it all really well. And that's what emerges, I think, sometimes naturally, when you love so deeply. When you love so deeply, you want to be all those things. And so this is just a really great inoculator to return to that analogy of just, we all have strengths.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:25] So don't, like, try to put all your energy into being at all. Like, you can actually be wise with your energy and maximize on your strengths and allow your kids to do that. And that can be tremendously relieving because I do feel like school, we still have systems that still are remnants of these places where children really feel pressured to be good at everything, you know, as opposed to this idea that as adults we're not good at everything. Like, it's okay to have certain interests and to do those things really well. And so I really love this. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:06] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:58:07] Cindy Wing Brandt says that sometimes we were so focused on the potential of children to grow into whatever exciting persons they may be, we forget they're already those persons. And their potential may not be lying in the future, but embedded within them in the present.

John Dehlin [01:58:21] And so I had a friend explain to me once that the parenting is more like gardening than carpentry. You know what I mean?

Jon Ogden [01:58:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:29] The seed comes with who they are and what they are.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:32] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:58:33] You're not supposed to mold your kids into some vision you have for them.

Jon Ogden [01:58:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:58:37] You're going to help them figure out who they are and then nurture them.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:40] Yeah. Their own entity. I love that.

Jon Ogden [01:58:43] Yeah. It's a good metaphor.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:58:46] Okay, so the fifth one is you can find the middle way. And so any virtue held too tightly becomes a vice, similar to how holding the in breath or the out breath leads to death. And so you were saying, as you grow up, you learn like, oh, you need kindness and you need boundaries, you need autonomy and you need community.

Jon Ogden [01:59:07] And if you Grip one of these, you're in the vice territory. And so too much courage is recklessness. Too much caution is cowardness. You know, cowardliness. Too much confidence is arrogance. Too much humility is timid. You know, down the line, too much skepticism is cynical. Too much trust is gullible. And so helping kids understand this virtue is awesome. You know, it's fantastic to be kind. And you also need to stand up for yourself. So explore the virtues. Intention prepares them for the complexity.

Jon Ogden [01:59:41] We can go ahead and skip through this one, but it's just the idea that as I talk about in my book, Mom's Doubt, like truth without beauty is cynical, truth without goodness is lonely, et cetera.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:51] Oh, those are great.

Jon Ogden [01:59:52] Any one of those held in isolation is actually not a virtue.

John Dehlin [02:00:01] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:01] So thoughtful.

John Dehlin [02:00:02] It's good stuff.

Jon Ogden [02:00:05] And then six, you have your family stories. So at times it's like, well, what do I tell my kids? What stories do I pass on if I don't have a traditional view? You have hundreds of stories that you can tell. Tell stories about the believers and the non believers. You know, if you have pioneer ancestors from the first generation of Mormons. So even if you had, if you've been, if your family's memorandum for 200 years, that's like 1 2,000th of the time that humans have been around. And so expand your, depending on how you, how you say when humanity originated, expand your view. Like who, who was part of your family before they became Mormon?

Jon Ogden [02:00:46] What are their stories? You know, so you include all the stories, the good and the bad, etc. I can go ahead and skip this one as well. Just this idea that, you know, our lineage goes back far beyond even if you've been a Mormon for 200 years. So tell those stories as many as you have, and then finally you have relationships. So make relationships, not truth claims the focus. I really love this quote from Mark Twain. He says there isn't time so brief his life for bickerings, apologies, heart burnings, callings to account. There is only time for loving and but an instant, so to speak, for that.

Jon Ogden [02:01:28] So the, the point of the lesson library isn't to teach them a bunch of information. It's a springboard that hopefully deepens your relationships. And if it's not, it's not worthwhile. Right. So you at uplift, we would say, use it to the extent that it helps you have deeper connection with your kids and deeper connection as a family. That's the point.

A Vision for Spiritually Thriving Children

John Dehlin [02:01:55] And I love this vision that you've got in this final slide.

Jon Ogden [02:01:59] Yeah. So finally, the final slide, it says a possible vision for the future. Imagine if religiously connected people joined with their non religious counterparts. Imagine that they integrate the best resources they can find from religious traditions, brain science, education, sociology, psychology, anthropology and art, gleaning anything of value from anywhere they can find it, systematically helping people to achieve the most advanced forms of moral development possible. I love it. Because the vision that I think the vision for the future is not, are you in? Are you out of religion again? I think it's working alongside people who happen to build believers and non believers and not making belief the focal point, but saying, you know what? Well, being and these timeless ideals, that's the focal point. Oh, you happen to be Mormon. Cool. Like I'll be, I'll be your friend. As long as it's reciprocated that they're okay with you, you know, not being Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:05] Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] So how do people find uplift.

Jon Ogden [02:03:09] Upliftkids.org okay, we'll add that in the show notes.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:12] Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. So much goodness and thoughtfulness. Thanks with those slides. Yeah. So my final question is just around. What if you could just say briefly what you used to want for your children and now what you want for your children.

Jon Ogden [02:03:33] Yeah. So when I was young, I would want them to do the checklist. And now. Well, and I would say related to your, your comment about schooling to get A's in every single class, you know, be good at every subject, excel, you know, now I'm just as interested in listening to who they are. Who, who are you meant to be? Even if you happen to get a C in math, like if you, if you are meant to be a writer or whatever, whatever it is, go for it, double down. Like, you know, focus on that. And you be your best version of yourself because what the world needs is your best version of yourself doesn't need the you to be another version of yourself.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:26] Yeah. And them deciding that with the best version.

Jon Ogden [02:04:30] Yeah. And as a parent, I'm a guide and I'm also a fellow journeyer, you know, on the journey together, saying, hey, I'll reflect to you what I see your strengths are, but I'm here to let you find your voice, whatever it might be.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:49] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, John Ogden. We appreciate you.

Jon Ogden [02:04:56] Yeah, likewise.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:57] Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. And until next time, happy, thriving.

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