Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

Guest [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button or on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Teacups for Love Candy this recording was

Natasha Helfer [00:01:04] taken at the Utah Thrive Conference in Salt Lake City, Utah in June of 2019. In order to have, I think, a successful time together, as in sexual activity, it's good to have some disclosures, expectations, guidelines up front. So I would like to role model that and just what you can expect from today.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:26] About probably 30 to 45% of us, if I'm being conservative, have had some level of unwanted sexual assault or trauma in our background. That's a lot of us in here, me included. This is not what I'm covering today.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:46] So I say this because anytime we talk about anything sexually related to, sometimes it's hard to differentiate between, you know, hurts and wounds in our past from things that we might be light hearted about having fun with today. And today's definitely light hearted and fun. So I'm just saying, you know, if you notice things come up for you, things that you're uncomfortable with or your body's telling you something, make sure you do some self care. You can do it right in your own space right there doing just deep breathing. You can walk out. I will never be offended of you walking out of my presentation.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:22] Go to the bathroom, splash some cold water in your face, whatever you need to do to take care of you. Okay? I'm the expert in this field. I'm a master at my craft. You can ask my husband if that's really true. But you are the experts in your own experience. So please, please, please. I mean, a big of the part, part of coming out of kind of a system where there's a lot of external authority is that we don't want to substitute one external authority for another. So I'm an expert in generalities and human behavior in general. You are not a generality, you are an individual.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:02] And you may not agree with everything that I have to say or it may not apply to you. So please practice that skill of I'm not sure, whatever, she's full of it. Whatever. All of that is fine. Please, please, please don't take your version of what you hear me try say, because I'm really fascinated at what people hear me say. And then I'm like, when did I say that? But people will oftentimes hear what they want to hear and then go home and beat your spouse over the head with that information. That probably wouldn't show up in the same way if I was to sit with both of you if you're married or if you're in a relationship.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:43] So be mindful that instead of sitting there thinking about all the things that your spouse isn't meeting, think about yourself. We're just going to barely scratch the surface, so please don't be disappointed with the fact that I'm going to really let you down today. I'm sure I will.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:00] There will be a few experiential exercises. I'm not an experiential learner. I like to go, I paid for you to talk to me and teach me, and that's what I expect you to do. So when you say, oh, have a chat with the next person next to you, or let's do a breathing exercise, I'm like, this is shit. I don't want to do this. I didn't pay you for that. And I've learned that that's really what I need the most. And then I get really grumpy at myself, and then the whole thing's a disaster. So it's not just your brain that needs to learn new information.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:32] It's your body, it's your vagina, it's your vulva, it's your penis, it's your scrotum, it's your tits, it's your brain, it's your stomach, all of those things. I'm gonna force you to do what I hate to do, hopefully somewhat consensually. And if you really hate it, then just, I don't know, stare me down and give me dirty looks. Okay?

John Dehlin [00:04:55] All right.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:56] There will be quickies. So, you know, as I'm thinking about all the stuff I want to share with you, I have my basic information. And then I'm like, oh, I want to give them this tip. So if you see a slide that says quickie on it, it's just kind of like a side tip. It's just like, let's go over here for a minute. Okay. Then we're back to the real thing.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] All right.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:16] I do have one slide only. Sorry. Some of you may be like, you have a slide. And some of you are like, you don't have 50. I have one slide with some erotic imagery on it. It is artistic. It is art. It's not people like in photography. So I would hope that we can all be resilient to that. I think it's beautiful and tasteful, something that you might see in a museum.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:39] But again, you can give me the ogly eyes if you want to. All right. I think, yeah. We consenting? Is this okay? We're on the same page. Okay. I feel like at the temple when they say, do you consent? And you're like, do I really want to say if I'm consenting right now in this group of people? I don't know. I kind of want to get the hell out of here. All right, you're welcome to get the hell out of here. That's fine.

Defining Sexual Well-Being After Faith Transition

Natasha Helfer [00:06:08] All right, so this is a question that I think with the name of the conference Thrive, I thought, can we all really ask ourselves this question, Do I want to sexually thrive? And even in this question, it can be yes or no. Not all of us think sexuality is that important. Not all of us have maybe a super high sexual drive. Not all of us are maybe motivated by our sexuality very much. But if you do, if you kind of come up with a maybe or yes to this answer.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:40] I just ate lunch, and I thought I was an hour from now. So I'm sorry. A little flustered. All right, that's my own fault then. I just came up with five tips that would maybe kind of give you a guide map of maybe some of the things of how you can encounter this idea of rethinking an entire aspect of your life.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:07] So you need to start kind of with these two questions. Where do I want to go and how do I get there? And both of these questions can be very ambiguous because sometimes it's hard to know what, like, if I say, well, I want to go visit Paris, but I've never been to Paris, it can be very hard to kind of visualize that or know what that's going to be like or what to expect or how do I even. What do I need to do to even get there? So I'm not expecting you to have these answers totally squared away, but they're good questions to just kind of be having in your kind of background.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:41] So number one thing that I think that we need to do in order to be able to answer these questions is know where we come from. Now, as a therapist and especially treating all of you Mormon folk, and I'll just call you all Mormon folk because you're not really all that different. I don't really care about the belief stuff. We have a lot of very similar things, whether we believe things or not. As far as how Mormon we are, that's a whole other presentation.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:06] But what I notice is that we are not Jews. We don't like to think about our past. So. So if I get a Jewish client in my office, they're ready to sit on the couch and talk for 500 hours about their past. Mormons are like, I don't need to talk about my past. What's the point of that? I need to go forward. Only forward, ever forward. If I talk bad about my mother, that's not very respectful. No, my mother had nothing to do with the way that I'm going today. So don't. Uh, we're not talking about the. Are you talking about the past, Natasha? Did you ask me a question about my past?

Natasha Helfer [00:08:41] Okay, so I'm not super thrilled to talk about the past either, and I don't want to spend a lot of time there because I do really want to focus a lot more on the future. But I do think we need to spend at least 10 minutes on our past given, you know, like a whole day type of metaphor.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:58] So knowing where we come from and that you want something different from where you came from is a huge part of self awareness. And you can't get somewhere if you don't know where you're coming from. Okay. And number one is what we're going to mainly focus on today. Okay, so this is going to be my main presentation today. Two is choosing intentionality. So in other words, you know, a lot of myths around sexuality are that it's natural and organic.

Guest 2 [00:09:28] It just happens.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:29] And you look into each other's eyes

Guest 2 [00:09:31] and, oh, it all goes so well.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:34] And that's all shit again. So it might be true in the limerence phase, but I don't know. I don't get up in the morning and go, oh, I can't wait to go on an organic run or go to the gym or eat my broccoli. That just feels so intentionally wonderful and authentic to me. No, but what is authentic is that I want to be healthy and I want to have the best body and I want to have the best life experiences. And if I want to have good sex or good sexuality or whatever you want to call that, it also needs to be something that I'm willing to work towards and be intentional about.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:09] And that means giving yourself permission to be a sexual being to do this work and to prioritize it. With your time, your money, your energy. Because it's not just going to show up and knock you out. It's not even those of you who are high libido. You need to work on it.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:29] Number three is know what's possible. So this is really where comprehensive sexual education information. I mean, we're so misinformed about sexuality. It's a huge issue. Not just in Mormon culture, just. We are not offered comprehensive sexual education in our country.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:46] And as somebody who's been very interested in sexuality, to have a podcast just last year where I found out even more things about my own anatomy that I never knew pisses me the hell off. Okay? As a sex therapist, I learned about a sponge I have that gets erect and that offers me pleasure that's somewhere around my urethra. And I'm like, what the hell? I didn't know that. Right. Pisses me off. So know what's possible then?

Guest 2 [00:11:19] Four.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:20] We gotta practice. We gotta practice. You don't get good at something.

Guest 2 [00:11:24] We.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:25] We don't just all pop out of the womb as naturally wonderful lovers or wonderful people who know how to be loved and touched and have orgasm and, like, have pleasure. It's a skill. You pick up that violin the first time, it's a little creaky. Do you remember your first kisses? Were they a little creaky?

Natasha Helfer [00:11:42] I remember the tongue coming at me. I'm like, that's creaky. That's creaky. I think he's probably better at that than he was at 12 with me. I hope so. Just saying, we need to practice. We need to have specific strategies. We need to lean into things, to learn things. It just doesn't happen. We're not born wonderful lovers.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:07] And then the fifth piece is the deeper work, if needed, intensive therapy. So this is all kind of from the plicit model, which is a sex therapy model, which is permission. You know, as a therapist, we give our clients permission to think about sex.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:21] We give them limited information, which is education. We give them specific strategies, and then if that all doesn't work, we go to intensive therapy. Okay, so that's the pliscit model that I was trained under. As we go through these slides, you might see, like, especially in my quickies, I'll have a number by it. That's what I'm telling you, what type of work you're doing with me today. So primarily be in number one, But I will actually give you at least one thing from each of these.

Understanding Discomfort Around Sexuality

Natasha Helfer [00:12:51] Okay, so let's talk about the role of discomfort, because the Research shows everywhere. If you think this is a Mormon problem, this is not a Mormon problem, okay? But the research shows we have our own weirdness around it. But it's not just our problem that we are incredibly uncomfortable with talking about sexuality as professionals, as doctors, as therapists, as laypeople, and yet we are surrounded by sexual messages all the time. So it's this weird dichotomy. So let me just, like, ask you really fast. When you have the idea that something is uncomfortable from a sexual perspective, given your background, what's the first thing you think of? Turn it off. What? Turn it off. Stop.

Guest 3 [00:13:47] Awkward.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:48] Where's all this coming from? Where's these negative feelings coming from? Right? I mean, if you're uncomfortable paying your tithing, we don't blame Satan for that. But if you're uncomfortable masturbating, that's definitely Satan's fault,

Guest [00:14:10] Right?

Natasha Helfer [00:14:11] Isn't that interesting? I think he's kind of cute. Okay. There are valid reasons for us to feel discomfort, and they're usually not satanic in, you know, in their beginnings, in their origins. So there can be, like, risk. There can be some danger. There can be some things that you're naturally really not comfortable with. There can be criminality around sexuality. There can be things that are that kind of get your speedy Spiderman alert on, right? And like, whoa, I'm not comfortable. Something's not right here. That's one reason to be uncomfortable. But these two next reasons are ones I really want you to focus on. Main reasons why people are uncomfortable, especially with a partner they trust and kind of like and actually want to be sexual with, is that they're having to learn how to do something they've never done before that's uncomfortable or they need to heal from something that they've been wounded on. Where's Andrew with the surgery? Are you going to physical therapy? Okay. You will go. Will you be thrilled to go?

Guest 3 [00:15:35] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:35] Okay. Because I've gone to physical therapy, and I'm driving myself and I'm going. I'm driving myself consensually to the torture chamber. And why, Right? So I'm doing something very uncomfortable and even painful because I know that there's something I need to stretch and grow and learn from and get back into working order. Okay. We commonly displace this with issues of consent.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:02] So what I typically feel is that we have very black and white language around consent in the sense that. I mean, I'm glad we're having a lot more discussion on consent, because that's very, very needed. Very, very needed. But when you're in a relationship with a partner that you love and trust and you're feeling uncomfortable and you're wondering, oh, my goodness, if I'm gonna lean into something that they're maybe interested in that I'm not sure I'm interested in, or if I'm gonna lean into sexuality at all and I'm uncomfortable, sometimes that gets with an idea that I'm not being consensual.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:37] So a quickie that I want to give you, and this is actually number two on the five, is to use the measurement scale, don't expect that good growth sexual type of activity is going to be at a zero on the measurement scale of discomfort.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:53] It's going to be between a 2 and a 5. Now, if you're higher than that, meaning a 10, 10 is like full blown panic attack, disgust in your stomach, knowing you're in frozen mode, like you do not want to be doing what you're doing. I never want you there. I don't really even want you at a six. Like, five is pushing the limit.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:17] But you can consensually deal with discomfort in a safe environment to help you grow sexually, whether that's with a partner or in solo sex. It doesn't have to be partnered. Does this make sense? Okay, another quickie. This is number three, just sexual education.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:40] So right now, whether you realize it or not, we are all aroused. Look out, people. I might just come jump you. I can't control myself because anytime that I talk about sexual. And I've noticed this as I've become more attuned to my body, I'm lubricated right now.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:02] Is that tmi? I'm so sorry. You may all need to go to sex therapy after this sex therapy presentation. But I'm just saying. I'm just saying. And my heart is racing and my eyes are probably dilated just because we're talking about sexual issues. My teenagers in the back are like, all right, so anyway, so sorry, parents of teenagers who brought them here. All right?

Natasha Helfer [00:18:35] We are not typically in tune with our bodies enough to notice. And arousal is very, very different from desire. And this is a very important concept to consider. So you can have a situation where. Where you have desire, ooh, I like to do something. And your penis isn't coming up.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:57] That's an arousal issue, not a desire issue. Right. Or you may have an issue. And this. I hope not to be triggering with this. But you may have a sexual traumatic experience where you have zero desire and your body just had an orgasm during a sexual Assault.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:18] Okay, that happens. So they're not always in sync for good reasons. And they don't always go hand in hand. And just because I'm aroused right now doesn't mean I want to have sex with any of you. Are you glad to hear that at least? Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:35] Last night was a different topic. No. All right, so. So just be aware that your body is very interesting and that most of this is involuntary. And isn't it so fascinating that we get so mad at ourselves or our partners for things we or they cannot control?

Natasha Helfer [00:19:59] A man who has erectile dysfunction, for example, what do we think? Well, I'm not sexy enough? You're not attracted to me anymore? You. And he's like, I don't. I can't make it go up. And the fact that now I'm saying, oh, you don't think I'm attractive enough makes it want to go up even less.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:22] The penis is not happy with me, right? Then it doesn't matter that he loves me or that he wants to have sex with me. The penis is like, this lady's rude. Not getting hard for her. So do you see what I'm saying? These are involuntary things that we spend so much angst and anxiety and sadness over. That's what makes me so sad, is that we just are sad about things that we don't understand and that we give a lot of meaning to that are completely inappropriate. Okay, so let's go into this idea of knowing where we come from and why we want to do this.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:56] If you want to go from here to here, you're going to have to delve into the past, know where you come from, know what you're up against. You're going to have to do some grief work. You're going to get angry, probably.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:10] But I'm so glad we started with Christian Moore's presentation yesterday. Right? Because now we know that those feelings are actually fuel and help us and that they're not negative and that they're not awful in of themselves as far as what they can offer us.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:28] And we need to start creating blueprints of what you want to build. So we're going to do a quick exercise, and I'm going to reward you with lube. I brought lube. I'm not endorsing this brand. It's just a brand that I happen to have. It is silicone based, but there's slippery stuff. There's lots of other brands, and my favorite is coconut oil, although you can get yeast infections for that. So you have to figure out your own Lube preference. All right, but we want to check our baggage. And how many of you own a purse that you've cleaned out? Do you throw it? Do you throw everything out that is in the purse? Usually?

Guest 2 [00:22:08] No.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:10] No, you don't. Because I'm going to go into a space here where probably most of you are going to be grumpy with me. We don't throw everything out. Not everything that we got into our luggage was probably bad, but we do throw out a lot, right? And we kind of go through the trash and the stuff that we don't want and we chuck it. And then it feels really good to have that clean purse or briefcase or whatever it is that you're dealing with. So I would like to start. I'm going to run around. You're going to make me get my exercise this morning. I'm going to.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:40] Or maybe somebody can help me. You can help me. If somebody says something that I like, they'll get loop. All right, so I want us to shout out or may just raise your hand because maybe I'll get too crazy with this type of group. Raise your hand if I point at you. I want you to share, just in one to five words max, something positive that you feel you got out of your Mormon upbringing or conversion. Right there.

Messages About Sex from Mormon Upbringing

Natasha Helfer [00:23:13] Risk of STDs. So in other words, people being aware of the risk, give them loop. All right, Right there. Not having sex as a teenager made before. We're ready to. Okay, next. She gets lube.

Guest 3 [00:23:33] Go.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:34] Yes. What connection is important.

Guest 3 [00:23:39] Thank you.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:39] Loop. What good friends like being friends with your sexual partner. Okay, so be with somebody who you share values with. Okay, he gets lube. You learned how to scrug. What's scrug? What's scrug? Oh, okay. I'm learning new things all the time.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:12] I thought this was dry humping. I didn't know it was scruggy. Goodness grief. All right, she gets lube. All right, so another. And. And I'm gonna go with this for a minute because I think even though there are problems with loophole sex, it gets us creative. All right, next.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:30] Yes. I thought it over there. Yes. Having fidelity in marriage. Thank you. Loop. Yes. Less unwanted pregnancies. Yes. Lube. I learned my own body first. You learned your own body first. I think I'm gonna give you that lube. Next.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:02] How you communicate. So you actually learned that. Good for you. I didn't learn that in Mormonism, but thank you. I'm glad you did. She gets loop. Next. Uh huh. A weekly date. So to prioritize the relationship.

Guest 2 [00:25:18] Great.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:18] Lube. Respect for bodies. Thank you. Lube. Is what? The taboo is not fun. You see that as a positive. Oh, the taboo is fun. Yes. We can thank every prohibitive thing for that. Thank you. Yes. He definitely gets lube. All right, next, Mehdi. Sex is divine. Yes. Hey, it can work for people. Yes. Yes. You have a little factory. Yes, definitely. Lube. Definitely give him lube. Two lubes for that one. Yes. I actually love the little factory. It's where Packer said it was a transgression and not a sin. I'm like, yes, win. All right, go ahead.

Guest [00:26:35] My wife's current underwear.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:37] Very attractive. Okay, so the shift in underwear has been a fun change for you. Okay, fine. I'll give you lube for that. All right, so some of the things that I've come up with, I definitely think that we get the message in Mormonism compared to other religions that sex is not just about procreation, and I think that's amazing. I've done a podcast on actually sex positives in Mormonism, so I think it's important to claim what. What we got that was good, because believe it or not, there's a lot worse out there. And I live in evangelical Wichita, so I know.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:06] I think that we definitely get a sense that we're here to experience joy and pleasure. Now, granted, I got fired in Relief Society for bringing up the fact that if we got a clitoris and its only purpose is to have pleasure, I thought that was a wonderful spiritual, divine thing. My ward didn't think so, but I thought it was very nice that Heavenly Mother probably has a clitoris and I have a clitoris. And this is amazing.

Guest 3 [00:27:31] All right.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:32] So that there is something special divine that we're built in the image of divinity. So we have some body positive positivity in Mormonism that I tend to like, that it can strengthen a bond, that it can be a spiritual experience. I mean, believe it or not, some religions, it's like sex is never good. It's just kind of like a necessary evil to have babies. So I don't think we have that necessarily.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:55] And for some people, ecclesiastical leaders were tremendously important in auxiliary leaders and being mentors and helpful there and available when there were sexual trauma or, you know, just really supportive people in their lives and some of their sexual difficulties. So this is my list. This is not comprehensive. Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:15] All right, let's do this again. You ready for some more exercise? All right, negatives, you got shame. Who said that? Okay, he gets lube today. It's A sin tomorrow. It's not. Come on, turn it on. People just like that. Lube it up.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:36] It's bad if you're not married. So there's like a. There's a condition to when it's good and when it's not, it's a sin. Next to murder. Yes. Which I can't tell you how many teenagers come in with that. With masturbation. There's no spectrum. There's no spectrum in Mormonism. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:58] It's a forbidden topic. So almost like the sacredness of it makes it like we can't even talk about it. Yes. Oral and anal are unholy practices according to certain people. Now, the oral sex didn't go over very well and that was quickly rescinded even though nobody got the message.

Guest 3 [00:29:21] But. Thank you. Yes. The what?

Natasha Helfer [00:29:28] Object lessons. That you're a lit cupcake. So if you've done something that you're somehow now broken, irrevocably broken or changed. Chewed gum. Yes. The way you present your body is somehow responsible for other people's thoughts. Modesty rhetoric.

Guest 3 [00:29:49] Thank you.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:54] Abstinence only. And then just jump in bed and have hot, passionate sex like you've never had before. Yes. That's super realistic. Thank you. Don't touch yourself. Your own body is off limits. Thank you. Even though we're doing it from the womb. Thank you. That's super realistic too.

Guest 3 [00:30:10] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:11] Yes. So take it to a whole nother level and be really weird about it. Yes.

Guest 3 [00:30:19] Thank you.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:26] It's what? It's never okay to what?

Guest 2 [00:30:31] Oh, right.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:32] Yeah.

Guest [00:30:32] Gay.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:33] They don't even exist. We don't have homosexuals. Yep. Thank you. Next. So the fact that it's absent in conversation kind of gives an indirect message that there's something wrong with it. Thank you. Very good. Give her two. That was very good.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:57] Blaming the victim. So kind of back to the modesty rhetoric that somehow the person's responsible brought it on. Yes. Thank you. Unequal gender powers, tons of gender roles. One more. Versus somebody like Bishop or somebody that is in a high position of power. So the disciplinary councils and the power differentials that are present in those that really can shame people and be very inappropriate. Thank you. Okay. We could go on for a while. And like I said, John only gave me a quickie, so I can't do it forever.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:48] Some of the things, you know, fear based education was really all we got. So no reproductive education. When you think about evils of the world, I mean, how many of you think about like money laundering? So, yeah, it's kind of like the indirect code word, right, for sex stuff. Right.

Guest 3 [00:32:11] So.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:12] And next to murder object lessons, your personal value or worth is tied to the sexual behavior. The natural man and men get this, I think, even more than women in our culture. So the idea that you really can't trust yourself or your desire or your sexuality, you're condemned even by your thoughts. So very normal kind of. I mean, thoughts are also highly involuntary. We can't control things that we think about. So now you're feeling guilty about something you can't even control. We cinephise. That's my word. Thank you. Webster should hear about it. We cinephize. Normal developmentally appropriate behavior like masturbation, like certain sexual developmental exploration. To go from kissing over the altar to here I am naked. Touch my boobies is so drastic that your vagina's like, whoop. I'm not doing that. I need my, you know, I need some, like, some process. So we don't. Oh, no. Oh, somebody help me.

Guest 2 [00:33:13] That went.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:15] Yeah, here's another battery. Somebody can help me put that together and I'll just do this. All right? Discipline, public shaming, gender restrictive roles, no gender identity, ability to talk, anything outside of gender. Gender. The way it's very prohibitively done. And of course, hetero is the only good type of sexual orientation to be experiencing. All right. Not to mention one that. One of my favorites. It gets its own slide.

Guest 2 [00:33:40] We get the sacred, beautiful, positive.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:45] You're going to wait, you know, since you were such a good missionary young man and you waited. You have the most incredible sex ever. Once you get married, whenever you want, whenever it comes along that you want it, it's gonna be beautiful. And the women are like, I'm gonna be held in this embrace and it's

Guest 2 [00:34:03] gonna be so lovely and loving. And then this happens.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:14] And we're like, what the fuck? Like, seriously, you know, you're thinking it. There's semen running down my legs. Nobody told me about that. It smells. You look weird when you're grunting and thrusting at me. How the hell do I look?

Natasha Helfer [00:34:37] Ah, yeah. I could go on and on, but yeah. So we have zero realistic expectations. So the honeymoon trauma is real people for a lot of people I see in my office. And many times, traumatically enough, they don't recover from this for years.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:57] Many, many times people are coming into my office 10 to 25 years after some very sad happenings that happened on their honeymoon just because they did not have education and they didn't know and they made a lot of meaning about It.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:13] Now, Mormons aren't the only ones who are screwing us up. So, again, just quickly, what do you think the main messages are about? What successful sexuality is like? Intercourse, penis, and vagina. Thank you. Most unreliable way to have a female orgasm. Thank you. Nobody knows that.

Guest 3 [00:35:32] Thank you.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:33] Next. Well, we know it, but we think we're broken because I can't tell you how many women come into my office saying, teach me how to have a real orgasm. And I'm like, what's a real orgasm? Well, when he's inside of me. But you're having orgasms other times, yes, but that's not a good enough orgasm. I'm like, hell with that. Okay, next.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:58] You're having sex right away and, like, in sync. And you're moaning in the same way, and you're orgasmic at the same time, and everything just falls into this amazing thing with somebody that you don't know hardly at all.

Guest 3 [00:36:10] Thank you.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:10] Yes. You should be hard for hours. Oh, Ned, no.

Guest 2 [00:36:16] Yes.

Guest 3 [00:36:17] Next.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:24] Yes. So the sexual encounter ends with the man's ejaculation. That's absolutely right. And that's what primarily most pornography shows. Yes. In the back. Always spontaneous.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] Of course.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:37] You're not gonna plan sex. That would be lame. That would be so just passe. Only weird people plan sex. Yes. How you look and how you sound. It's a performance. Right. And our vaginas and penises do not like performances. They don't like it.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:03] And I don't mean to pick on the penis, because we have just as much as erectile function, and as men do, females have just as much erectile function as men do. Tissue. Was there another hand back there? Only people who look like this get to be sexual, so I don't know. That's not most of us in this room. Sorry to tell us all. Me included. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:35] Only positive feedback. I love it, even if I don't. But I'm going to still tell you I do because I couldn't hurt your poor ego. Oh, so exciting. All right, two more. Andrew. Yes. Yes. There has been a lot more female initiation, and that has been nice. Yes. Women power. Let's go. Clip power. Actually.

Guest 3 [00:38:24] Go.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:24] Yes.

Guest 3 [00:38:25] Next.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:30] The what? Yeah. There's no depiction of consent, birth control, negotiation, right style, or cleanup afterwards, or the fact that I just queefed in the middle of it.

Guest 3 [00:38:48] What?

Natasha Helfer [00:38:49] How am I supposed to feel sexy after that? I mean, I can control this a lot more than I can control this when it comes to the air function of my body. So does this make us angry? Or sad yet that this is what the kind of shit we all grew up with.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:10] I hope. I mean, we're laughing, but I hope that there's some, like, tragedy here. Right. That we're upset about and. Good. So I'm glad I'm being helpful. I'm glad I'm getting you all pissed off and sad. That's good, because this is a validating place to be. Nothing like group anger to get us, like, healing. It's good.

Processing Anger and Shame Through Ritual

Natasha Helfer [00:39:28] And this is a motivating place. Again, back to Christian's message. This is where we get our resiliency from. And also, just be very careful that you don't let your anger lie to you. Okay? So in other words, feelings have lots of good information, but they also lie to us all the time.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:47] So one way that anger typically lies to us as Mormons, especially if transitioning or post Mormons, is that Mormonism is what ruined my sex life. And I can guarantee you I'm seeing plenty of sex problems. And it's not Mormons, but we have our own brand.

Natasha Helfer [00:40:07] But we all come from very sex negative cultures. This whole country was based on a very puritanical sexual culture that has infiltrated hundreds of years. You know, and you go back thousands. I mean, the history of sexuality is fascinating all in of itself. And it's not usually very good. It usually has a lot of control and power dynamics, has a lot to do with whose baby is whose. Right. That's where a lot of our stuff comes from.

Natasha Helfer [00:40:36] So don't fall into this idea that somehow if I would have been able to be non Mormon, explore in my youth, I would have had the most amazing, wonderful, beautiful, enlightened, consensual experiences at 21 in my college career, because it's not happening there either. Most of those kids are drunk, having huge issues with consent, huge performance anxieties. And all you need to do is watch the Bachelor or Bachelorette where most people aren't Mormon to see that they're dealing with all the same dysfunctional messages that we are.

Guest 3 [00:41:11] Okay?

Natasha Helfer [00:41:11] So just keep it real, keep it in perspective. Like, yes, we can be, yes, we can be pissed off at our Mormonism and we were probably going to be screwed up anyway. Yeah, This is my dad's shame. Yeah. So she's bringing up the point that we also deal with intergenerational messages. Right. So our families, like all of us came from very different Mormon families.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:43] Some of us probably had some sex positivity in our families. Some had very little. Even though we're all Mormon. Right. We all grew up in Mormon homes. All right, so we're going to do our first experiential exercise. And I want you to think about three of these messages that really resonated with you that you want to get rid of. Okay? Really? Whether it's a label, whether it's something you bought into, whether it's a harm that you felt like misinformation, educational wise, that you felt really harmed your ability to tap into your sexuality. We're all going to get up. I don't know if this works or not with the music, but we're going to shake it off for a few minutes.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:23] So get up, people. Do it. Have it clear in your mind what you're shaking off. This is ritual. We learn from ritual. Good ritual. Well, we learned from bad ritual, too, but this is hopefully a good one.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] I say I'm too late. Got nothing in my brain. That's what people say. That's what people say. I go up through many dates, Different people die.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:02] Are you getting this?

John Dehlin [00:43:27] I never miss a beat.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:58] All right, all right. Did that feel good? Do we feel energized? All right, we're gonna go quickly into number two. What time do you have me for the end? Ten minutes. Okay, so number two, I'm gonna just go through these very quickly. Going from an external authority to an internal authority is this idea of permission giving and inviting pleasure is something that we're all deserving of, and that actually knowing that your bodies are wired for pleasure and using both individual and systemic authenticities as guiding forces. So usually in post transitioning phases, we're very much about authenticity. We don't want to do anything that we don't want to do because we're so tired of everybody else telling us what to do.

Authenticity, Boundaries, and Reclaiming Healthy Sexuality

Natasha Helfer [00:44:49] Sometimes, tragically, that can get in the way of relational. The normal relational compromise that comes with any good relationship. So systemic authenticity is also a space that you can function from. Even if I'm not super comfortable or super willing, I am authentic in my offering because I love you and you matter to me. And there is something very authentic about that.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:18] What I'm just saying about that you're not doing. Individual authenticity is I want to do what I want to do. Systemic authenticity is me changing 500,000 bajillion poopy diapers. Do you think I really liked doing that? I'm not into that fetish, but I did it because there was something very systemic, authentically about me, about being a mom, an aunt, a babysitter. Whenever I did that. Does that make Sense.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:50] So that's important because that lies into spontaneous and responsive desire. And both men and women need to learn how to have both of these types of desires. Spontaneous is when you're horny. It's easy, it's involuntary, it doesn't take much work.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:08] Responsive is when you're responding to somebody else's bid for your attention sexually. And guess what? Those hardly ever happen at the same time. Imagine the movies all lied to us, right? So you lean into that person's spontaneous desire. Or maybe you're both coming at it with responsive desire, because even though you're not maybe necessarily horny, you realize you need to prioritize your sex life.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:40] And in that process of leaning in, your body starts responding and you do have desire, arousal, orgasm. Okay, I'm going to share this really quick, just because it was so touching to me. This was a couple that came and did an intensive weekend work with me.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:01] They were really struggling with their sexuality, and she in particular was really struggling with body image. So part of this permission piece is really embracing your own body. And the way we talk about genitals, it's a whole other exercise I could do is the names we have for genitals is horrible, horrible.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:22] And it's like this beautiful part of ourselves. And what do we do when we do head, shoulders, knees and toes? We skip over the entire pelvic floor that is at the base of who we are as individuals, including our back, what supports us, what offers pleasure. It's like such an integral part of who we are. We just skip it.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:46] So she was doing body image work, and I asked them to write poetry to their own genitals. She could not stand the sight of her vulva. She thought she smelled bad. She didn't like him going down on her. I have permission to share these.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:03] And he really loved going down on her, but she never let him. And of course, she was very squeamish about the penis, too, because in what world are we taught that penises are really nice, lovely things to touch at, look at, and kiss? It's like, blah, right? So they wrote, and she was Hispanic and he was American, so his are actually in Spanish. And I'm just going to read these.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:32] And it's interesting to notice she was able to do the poem for his penis first before she could do her own. He did hers first, and then he did his own. I thought that was interesting. So she says, snuggled against self, relaxed, beautiful, awakening. Rising high above the grass. Relaxed, beautiful, alive. Veins of life coursing through strong, beautiful, loving Reaching, yearning, leading, responding to embrace. Beyond him. Softness, hardness, Beautiful.

Guest 2 [00:49:26] This is just profound to me.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:28] This is her ode to his penis. And then she was able to do one for herself, which just took her about three weeks after our intensive to come up with this unfamiliar yet vibrant, mossy, moist, pulsating, opening. A home hidden by bushes. Me, open, no longer hidden, welcoming, exotic, Beautiful to me.

Guest 2 [00:50:07] To him.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:09] Beautiful new world. Right?

Guest [00:50:17] Wow.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:21] And I was able to find a way to. I hope you can read the. Because I'm going to read it in Spanish. I'm going to honor his Spanish, but I did try to translate it. This is for her.

Guest 3 [00:50:38] Con un vistas o tan de circa y a la ves in limites el citio dulce El citio profundo el citio tujo yalavez en este momento. El momento eterno mio suave tierna arrugada de perfection. Reluciente consus umedas perlitas. The dulceura caigo a sombrado respiro rosso anelo peso la fruta de tu perfection.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:16] Ah, These guys just make me cry all the time.

Guest 3 [00:51:19] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:21] And then he did one for himself, for his own genitals.

Guest 3 [00:51:26] Sensible. Viejo que un cuando pas el tiempo Y atento, Atento con rijides. Atento con blandura una extension mia que affirma placer affirma amor Affirma Aveces con una alcanse que sobre pasa la y mahinacion la profundidad de tu perla anelando quitando el aliento me conduce como puente electrico a tuer tuartna dul sura.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:08] Do you see why I love my job? You need to know that there's benefits of sexual activity, real health benefits to sexual activity. That's solo sex, that's partnered sex. Either way. And to truly benefit. Not that I'm going to shame you if you only have sex once a month, or if you never have sex, or if you have sex ten times a day. But to truly benefit, at least once every two weeks, your whole life, you should be having a sexual experience with yourself or with a partner. This avoids performance anxiety. When we put it off and avoid each other, it gets worse. It's like getting kicked off the horse.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:56] And now you're scared and you're worried and you're in an anxious response that's going to make it that much harder to engage in the future. So you have to lean into that 2 to 5 discomfort on your scale, if you want to experience sexual health, we are going to the Vulva and Penis Gym. It's okay to look at it that way. If you want to have muscles, you go to the gym. If you want sexual health, you go to the Penis and Vulva Gym. If you want to have good nutrition, you go to the nutritionist or get a good cookbook.

Guest 2 [00:53:26] Right?

Natasha Helfer [00:53:26] We are intentional in our efforts. You have to prioritize this as a plan, as part of your life. I'm going to skip this one. I was going to have you. I was going to have you all. I'll just tell you really fast. I was going to have you all touch your own hands like a pleasure exercise. And then you guys could have gone home and said, I went to this place where they helped me self stimulate. Sorry, I just cracked myself up. So anyway,

Guest 2 [00:53:56] I just.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:57] I have a weird sense of humor. I'm sorry. All right, I'm going to just fly by these. This is stuff that I would see as tasks that you probably all need some level of work on. Rework your relationship with your own body. Rework your sexual values, understanding principles of sexual health. Rework what is going to be considered successful sex, which is, I hope your definition of that is much more than anything penetrative.

Practical Tips for Sexual Well-Being

Natasha Helfer [00:54:26] Rework the myths of ownership. That's a huge one. I could do a whole workshop on that. The whole idea of belonging. You know how Margi talked about belonging to me first. But we don't talk about that in soulmate, romantic Western relationships. And that's why we get so pissed off when you behave in a way that I'm not okay with.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:44] Because you belong to me, so you can't do that. That's a huge issue in of itself and very much driven by Mormon culture. Rework the roles you are playing in your relationship. I'll talk about that in a minute. Rework your marital contract, your libido differences, your erotic template differences, rights to privacy versus common knowledge. Work on getting rid of unnecessary meaning ruts.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:08] Rework gender roles. Assess and allow for orientation and gender identity considerations. Understand your anatomy. I'm still doing it. Like really understand it. Develop a toolbox full of resources that works for you or your partnership. I'm going to say that really fast.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:30] Usually these are roles that we play in marriages or long term relationships that are not sexy. Nobody really wants to be married to a teacher who tells them how to do everything, or a parent who gets you into trouble, or a missionary who's trying to convert you.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:46] These are roles we only want if we're paying for it, if we open the door or, you know, we just kind of have to deal with them. We don't want to be lovers in this way. What we do want is we want partnership and mystery and flirtation. We want friendship and respect and we want lovers. Erotic energy.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:07] That's typically what we'll keep at relationship sustainable. And we're going to end with a guided imagery because I said so somewhat consensually again. All right, so I want you all to. We're going to try to do this super therapeutically and super quick at the same time, right? So we're going to do a guided imagery. Want you all to get as comfortable as you can in these wonderful, beautiful chairs that you're sitting in. I want you to close your eyes, take a few deep breaths. Whatever happens during this is fine. If you think it's corny, that's fine. If you have an aha moment, that's fine. There's no expectations here with this exercise. So let's just take five deep breaths. As you focus on your breath, I will keep on talking.

Guest 2 [00:57:03] You just keep on focusing on your breath.

Natasha Helfer [00:57:06] We're going to start with a body scan. I would like to have you kind of notice where you're holding tension or

Guest 2 [00:57:11] any other type of feeling or emotion in your body. We're going to start at the top of your head. We're going to go down into your jawline. We're going to go down into your neck. Again, just notice in a non judgmental way, go into your shoulders, your upper chest, your upper back, your arms,

Guest 3 [00:57:33] your

Guest 2 [00:57:33] abdominal area and middle back, your derriere, your pelvic floor, your genitals, your upper thighs, lower legs, all the way down to your toes. And just notice your body and thank it for being present with you today. Imagine a space that you feel comfortable outdoors. Place yourself there. Whether it's a forest or a beach or a meadow, Whether it's cool and crisp or warm and glowing.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:11] And as you're walking along, you notice you are coming upon a wall.

Guest 2 [00:58:16] A big wall, a wall that blocks your view from what lies beyond. This wall represents the hurtful messages that you received. The labels, the limitations, the misinformation.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:32] You notice the texture of the wall,

Guest 2 [00:58:34] the size of the wall, the color of the wall. You notice that as you get closer, the wall has features of a living being. You can almost feel it breathe. There is moisture coming off the wall. And you recognize that there is sadness emanating from this wall.

Guest 2 [00:58:57] It actually doesn't like that it exists. It knows and recognizes that it has caused you harm. It didn't mean to be there. It was erected by wall makers that have been around for thousands and thousands of and thousands of years.

Guest 2 [00:59:20] You let the wall know that it is correct. It has hurt you. It has limited you. It has developmentally stunted you. It has robbed you of organic and normative experiences. You sit there together in that space of sadness for a minute.

Guest 2 [00:59:46] And then you let the wall know that you no longer need it to be there. You reach out. You touch it. You thank it for its recognition of your pain. You let it know that you are sorry it was erected and that it too is sad. The wall nods and smiles just ever so slightly before heaving a very heavy sigh.

Guest 2 [01:00:15] You look at each other. You acknowledge each other. And then the wall, all on its own, in all of its heaviness and mass, it slowly but surely, like a large statue coming to life, stands on its own two feet, gathers its balance, turns away from you and starts walking into the horizon.

Guest 2 [01:00:44] And before you see it completely fade away, it turns back to you and smiles and waves with an understanding between you that it is pleased. You have released yourself from it. And now you look at your surroundings. You start to see what the wall was blocking.

Guest 2 [01:01:07] It is new territory. It is beckoning to you to explore. You take a deep breath, noticing your senses as you do so, what the air feels like against your skin, the noises, nature surrounding you by the smells that your scent picks up and you smile and you start the venture one step at a time, savoring, mindful, aware of where you come from and seeing possibility in where you are headed. You feel gratitude towards yourself for being in this very moment, in this very place.

Guest 2 [01:01:51] Your sigh is complete and satisfied. When you are ready, please open your eyes and reengage with me. I wish we had time to process and get some thoughts from you.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:07] We don't

Guest 2 [01:02:11] of the fruit they did eat. Go forth. Explore. Enjoy.

Guest 3 [01:02:17] Thank you.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:23] Thank you for tuning in today. For other Thrive presentations and future Thrive events, visit thrivebeyondmormonism.com.

Guest [01:02:49] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com to be strong

John Dehlin [01:03:18] I Our imperfections but it doesn't matter

Guest 3 [01:03:26] now.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] It doesn't matter

Natasha Helfer [01:03:31] now.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] It's not just poison in disguise. Candy coated poison in the sky Teacups full of candy coated light.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.