Episode Introduction and Content Warning

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 518

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Because of the language contained in the Book of Mormon musical, this episode does contain some swearing and being like, can

Clark Johnsen [00:00:06] I really get a little more tea on tuh.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] We just earned our explicit rating.

Guest [00:00:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Consequently, listener discretion is advised. Nonetheless, don't be fooled. This interview with Clark Johnson is totally awesome. To check out the video version of this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to keep these podcasts alive, please consider a financial contribution today@mormonstories.org thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is December 28, 2014. We are in Salt Lake City, Utah, probably Sandy area. And we're very excited to have a live audience of about 120 awesome people, everybody. And we're here tonight to spend an evening with Clark Johnson. Clark is a very talented and interesting individual and he's probably best known for being in the original cast of the Broadway musical the Book of Mormon Musical. So we're here to talk a little bit about Clark's early years, how he kind of got into Broadway. Then we hope to dig deep on the musical itself. For those of you who haven't seen it, there may be a few spoilers, but we'll try not to ruin the musical for you. But we are going to talk about the musical and we'll also talk about interesting themes in the musical that relate to Clark's life and other things that are important to Clark and to our audience. So thank you all so much for coming. Clark, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Clark Johnsen Introduces Himself

Clark Johnsen [00:02:01] Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] Yeah, well, it's our pleasure. Well, I think it'd be fun to begin. Like we always kind of begin. Let's just talk briefly about your early years in the church and kind of what the church meant to you.

Growing Up Gay in the Mormon Church

Clark Johnsen [00:02:15] Well, you know, I think like many young, you know, I think a big part of my narrative is being a gay Mormon, you know, especially as I reflect on my youth in the church. And, you know, there was definitely that I was raised in a very sort of traditional, very loving, very sort of by the book Mormon home. You know, the family home evening on Monday nights, the very strict Sabbath day observances. There was not a lot of moral wiggle room or ambiguity in my family when it came to living gospel principles. There was very much a feeling of my universe, truly was the universe of my childhood was the universe of the Mormon paradigm, what city we moved about every five years from. I was born in California. We lived in Texas for a Brief period. Moved to Wyoming, moved to Illinois, moved back to Houston, Texas. And so, you know, kind of. My dad worked for Exxon, and so about every five years, he would take a sort of a transfer position and move to a different place.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] And how many siblings?

Clark Johnsen [00:03:31] Six siblings. I'm the second oldest of six. Five boys, two girls. So, you know. And high school was where high school was, half in Illinois and then half in Houston, Texas.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] What?

Clark Johnsen [00:03:41] High school in Klein High School in Houston.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] Yeah.

Clark Johnsen [00:03:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] We used to play Klein Oak and Klein Forest.

Clark Johnsen [00:03:48] Well, I hope we won. That's all I can say.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Usually did. I grew up in Katy.

Clark Johnsen [00:03:53] Oh, okay. So right there. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Excellent. Okay. Same district football teams.

Clark Johnsen [00:03:57] There we go. There we go.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Okay, so that's not necessarily the most gay friendly city, Houston. I mean, I know there's a strong LGBT community. I mean, Houston had a lesbian mayor when I lived there.

Clark Johnsen [00:04:09] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Kathy Whitmire. But Texas is Texas.

Clark Johnsen [00:04:12] Yeah. I mean, so, you know, Houston was sort of where my. We moved there right around my 16th birthday. And that was sort of where I really discovered or, you know, came to terms with my sexuality in a sort of more conscious and overt way. And I actually discovered a gay and lesbian youth group in. In downtown Houston that was sort of very instrumental in my. In my coming out process and coming to terms with things. So it was a little bit of an interesting story because I was. Every year, my family would take this big vacation to Utah because I have relatives who live nearby in Sandy. And so my mom would sort of like, pack up all seven kids in the van, and, you know, my dad would stay home and work, and my mom would drive 24 hours from, you know, from Illinois or Houston. She would drive straight through in this, you know, stalwart Mormon pioneer fashion and get us all to, you know, to Happy Valley in one piece. And so one summer, I remember I couldn't go, and so I was home by myself, and I. And I remember just opening the phone book to try to find a gay group, you know, but this is 1993, and, you know, there was no Internet yet. And so I just sort of opened the Yellow Pages to G for gay. Like, look, I mean, I don't know what I thought I was gonna find, like, the gay club, you know, so obviously there was nothing of that sort. And I was like, well, maybe H. Maybe. Maybe homo will be in there. So I flip. Flip to the H. And there's this. There's, of course, nothing, but there's this entry that says Hatch in all capital Letter H, A, T, C, H. And I was like, well, maybe that. So I dial, you know, just in this desperate attempt to try to find something, I dialed a number, and you've reached the Houston Area Teen Coalition for Homosexuals.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Oh, my God.

Clark Johnsen [00:06:06] And I. It was. It was like, you know, for a young Mormon who really believes that everything in your life is being directed and everything is happening for a reason, I was like, well, this is clearly Satan guiding me to this.

Guest [00:06:22] Right?

Clark Johnsen [00:06:23] Is this not. It's not God. Right. And so I, you know, like, nervously fumble out this message to this machine, and then, you know, someone kind of calls me back immediately. And I've never. I've never come out to anyone at this point. I've never said I'm gay to anyone. I did do that thing, which a lot of gay men have said that they did. And that is that one day I was standing in the mirror, you know, and I sort of went from looking at, you know, you know, my pores of my face to see if they were, you know, to then going like, looking into my eyes and being like, you, who am I? And, you know, and that led me to then saying out loud, I'm gay. You know, I'm a gay man.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] Out loud, out loud to the mirror.

Clark Johnsen [00:07:13] And I've heard of it at age 16.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] Now, are you a believer in the church right now?

Clark Johnsen [00:07:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Okay.

Clark Johnsen [00:07:18] I mean, talk a bit about your

John Dehlin [00:07:19] testimony at that point.

Clark Johnsen [00:07:20] Well, so, okay. So, I. Mean, I really believed that the universe was exactly as it was presented to me by the gospel by my parents. I had absolutely no doubt or inkling that there could be another truth. To me, the concept of absolute truth for all human beings was. It was unquestionable. Like, the church was true. There was no ambiguity. There was no way the church was wrong. There was no way there was another faith paradigm that was acceptable. There was no way there wasn't a God. There was no way. There wasn't an atonement. Everything was in my mind at that age. You know, my own homosexuality was an absolute betrayal of everything that I had learned about God.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] You first started feeling attracted towards men at what age?

Clark Johnsen [00:08:23] Oh, it's. You know, I have heard a few gay men say, like, I didn't know I was gay until I was 20. I mean, for me, I'm like, I swear. I swear to you, I was like three. And I was like, I think that guy's cute. You know, I mean, it's just like, to me, there's no recollection of none non gay thought Processes. I knew I was. I was very, very bossy, precocious, know it all child that, you know, I was the one with all the answers in Sunday school. I knew what everybody wanted me to say, and I said it. You know, I was, you know, I was the, like, busy body child who was like, helping the teacher erase the chalkboard before anyone else could even think to ask, you know, so for me, like, you know, it was. It was just. There's just. There's no place for these feelings, but at the same time, they were so incredibly strong. You know, when I discovered the Kinsey scale, I was like, well, there's just. No, I'm not on this spectrum. I am like, I am a six, like, for sure, you know, so there was. There was never a moment where I was like, well, maybe I'm attracted to women, or maybe I'm. I mean, even from a very young age, I just. I knew. I knew even before I could name what it was, I knew it.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Did you ever try and figure out why? Did you ever try and, like, ask yourself, was it because of some of the reasons society often.

Clark Johnsen [00:09:46] Absolutely. I mean, well, particularly, you know, that. That. That sort of line of questioning becomes more relevant when I. When I sort of got to college and I sort of, you know, my. What? My, My. I came out to my ecclesiastical leader. I came out to my bishop before I came out to my parents.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] After your mission?

Clark Johnsen [00:10:07] Before my mission, in a sort of bizarre set of circumstances, I ended up telling my bishop that I was gay. And the reason that I told him that is because through this Houston group that I found and I went to, I sort of started seeing this boy that was in this group. And because the gospel is so important to me, I brought him to church with me and Sue. Insanity. You know, I mean, this is the crazy mindset. But I. Even from the very beginning of my gay Mormon sort of adventure with myself, I really. I feel that I was very programmed or very inclined to integrate my worlds. I was not one of those people that was like, my gay life's over here and my Mormon life's over here, and I'm going to separate them. From the very beginning, I was like, I've got to find a way to. If this is going to work, I've got to find a way to marry these two worlds. And so what I realize now is that I basically started inventing my own version of Mormonism in my head to make that work, you know, which ties

John Dehlin [00:11:14] into the Book of Mormon musical.

Clark Johnsen [00:11:15] But we'll get to that, right? Absolutely, absolutely. But so I brought this boy to church and the bishop was like, like, who's this guy? Why are you, you know, so the bishop called me in for a sort of random, random worthiness interview based on his discernment, you know. So I go in and I talk to the bishop and he's like, you know, how is everything going? And I'm like, everything's great. It's great. Head exploding, you know, and, you know, he's like, well, now how are you doing with personal worthiness? And I was like, I'm great. What do you, you know, everything's great. And he's like, let me be more specific. Are you. How are you doing with masturbation? Because you know, what every bishop wants to talk about is masturbation with a 16 year old, right? So I said, you know, I'm keeping. I think I'm doing pretty well, you know,

John Dehlin [00:12:24] You're chilling.

Clark Johnsen [00:12:26] I think I'm getting better, actually really progressing. And, you know, my accuracy is high. So, you know, he says, well, the reason I'm asking is because, you know, often the sin of masturbation can lead to other sins. And I, I was just like, what other sins? And he says, well, you know, the sin of masturbation can lead to homosexuality. And I was like, pause. I was like. So I was like, I just want to. I had this, like, moment, this, you know, this very long Scorsese stretched out, slow motion in my head, you know, flying, falling, kind of trying to figure out what I wanted to say here, because this was sort of a pivotal moment for me to either hide my nature and hide my thoughts versus being really honest and being like, I don't believe that what you're saying is true, and I think we should talk about this. And also sort of maybe feeling a little like I needed to educate this bishop lest he go on in this kind of thought process. And so I kind of, you know, slow motion, you know, figured out I was, you know, I was like, you know, I'm just going to be honest right now. And so I said, I said, you know, I think that's wrong. And he was like, what do you mean? Why would you say that? And I said, well, I just want to let you know that I have masturbated before, but I, you know, not for very long. And I'll tell you that I've been gay since I was a child and my homosexuality certainly preceded my masturbation. And he just sort of sat there looking dumbfounded for a few minutes and took a minute to Kind of recover, because I don't think he was. I think, you know, even though I brought my boyfriend to church and maybe he had some inkling, I don't think he was expecting me to make such a sort of honest and sort of presence of mind kind of a statement like that. And, and so, you know, he was like, well, what do you mean? So anyway, we had this long conversation and. And I had decided not to tell my parents about my. I had sort of.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] So this is the first time you came out to anyone?

Clark Johnsen [00:14:52] Pretty much. I kind of told like this girl who lived in a far away town, because if it went badly, I don't know if other people did this. But, you know, it was this girl who lived in Illinois where I had lived previously. And I went and visited and I. She was the first person I told. And I. I said to myself, if this blows up in my. Thinks I'm a terrible person and she hates me and she wants to spread this gossip to every. Thank goodness Facebook didn't exist at the time. You know, it's been a higher stakes. But so I told her and she was, you know, she was Christian, not Mormon. She was extremely loving and wonderful. And so he was basically the second person I had ever told. Of course, I had no intention of telling him, but when someone says masturbation leads to homosexuality, I feel like it's your moral obligation to say something.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] You hadn't told your parents yet?

Clark Johnsen [00:15:34] I hadn't told my parents, so. And I had sort of decided not to because I just didn't want to let my parents down. You know, they. My older brother, it was very clear at this point, you know, he was a couple years older than me. It was very clear that he wasn't going on a mission. You know, it was clear that he was sort of not going to be Mormon anymore. And so my parents were like, really taking his difficulties with the church or his, I guess, inability to perform up to the standards set forth by Mormon Success Paradigm Mission, byu, getting on that marriage path, getting ready to mobilize those sperm to make more Mormon babies. You know, I felt like I was sort of carrying my parents, you know, their success as parents on my shoulders. And I certainly knew that my homosexuality would be a very large blow to their Mormon egos. And so. And I love my parents. You know, I adore my parents. They were really good parents. They really care about me and they very, very carefully and lovingly raised me. And, you know, on my sixth birthday, I asked my mom was like, what do you want? What Should I tell Santa to bring you? And I said, I really want a Barbie because I love their hair. And my mom was like, I'm going to get him a Barbie. And somehow like my dad or somebody was like, I don't think you can get him that. I think that that's a bad idea. And my mom was like, he should get what he wants for Christmas. I'm going to give him what he wants, you know. And so I can't say that my parents were ever progressive, you know, I think they're very much by the book Mormons, very afraid to break the rules, you know, very much. I'll rephrase better, you know, very much. Obedience is the way to. You have safety within the bounds the Lord has set and that's where you should stay. And so that's my, that's my parents, particularly my mother's, you know, mo. So I was trying to protect them from this, you know, whole gay thing because I didn't know what it meant yet. And I hope that it wouldn't, you know, I didn't want it to hurt them anyway. He was like, no, you should go home and tell them. I'm discerning that that's what you should do. And so I went home that day and told my parents and you know, of course my parents reaction was fine. And the reason my parents reaction was fine is because I said I'm gay, but don't worry, I'm going to be celibate for the rest of my life and I'm never, ever, ever going to act on these feelings. So you have nothing to worry about. And because I'm so awesome and I'm so obedient, God will probably bless me with enough heterosexuality to make a marriage work. And I'll probably still be able to give you Mormon offspring that numberless concourses of angels will be proud to welcome into the fold. So, you know, so when you present it that way, you know, they were more than fine with it. But so anyway, this sort of, you know, ecclesiastical from the beginning, this sort of sense of integration and my bishop at the time, you know, my BYU applications have sort of already been, you know, you know, by the point, you know, we continued to counsel. I got accepted into byu and he said, you know, I'm going to let you, I'm going to sign your ecclesiastical endorsement and all I ask in return is that you see a BYU counselor and you know, kind of do some counseling because I think you should be working with someone to help you. And you know, it was Never sort of overt or, you know, declared to me that I needed to change my sexuality. But of course, like, of course that's the inference. You know, you got to try to change this. And so I know I'm just sort of like running here, but interrupt me if you want. But. So when I got to byu, the therapist that they set, you know, that I was sort of set up with, I remember the BYU Counseling center where they did the counseling. It's now somewhere else, but at the time it was in the Spencer W. Kimball tower, the swicket, you know, this big looming building over, just like Spencer W. Kimball's judgment, just looming over everything. And iron, of course, you know, Spencer W. Kimball is the author of this doctrine that masturbation leads to homosexuality. So I don't know. As I was sitting there filling out what is your primary problem that you're here for the counseling center today? I just found it really ironic that I was sinning in Spencer W. Kimball's namesake. Right. Well, I'm a gay man.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] There's also a large phallic symbol in the middle of you where you.

Clark Johnsen [00:20:23] Which I for one appreciated. I really appreciate. Thank you. So anyway, my first day in this group or my first day in therapy, I sit down and this counselor is, you know, he basically looks like Spencer W. Kimball. I mean, he's this older guy, a couple years away from retiring. And he said, you know, so what are your goals for therapy? You know, which is often one of the first questions that therapists watch. Why are you here? What are your goals for therapy? What would you like to accomplish? And I'm like, I'm at byu. This is a George Orwell moment. Big Brother is watching. What? You know, well, of course I would like to, you know, ideally become a, you know, healthier, more self aware person. And I'd hopefully like to change my sexuality. You know, I'm attracted to men. And of course I, you know, was programmed by the church to never say that I was gay because that's identifier. Whereas, you know, so I was very much into. I have same sex attraction. I'm attracted to men. Of course, you know, all these sort of temporary ways of describing this non condition, you know, it's not an orientation, it's just some sort of a temporary, you know, all these things. So I said, you know, I would like to change, you know, and to my complete shock, this therapist who I don't, you know, I know he retired from byu, but I don't know if he's still doing any therapy or anything. But he said, he said, you know, we can work really hard on a lot of different areas of your life, and we're going to talk through how your, you know, how your same sex attraction affects your church membership and how it affects. But I just want to let you know that I've been counseling gay men and women for 30 years, and I just want to let you know I've never seen anyone change. And I was like, what? You know, I was just. I was floored because I just expected to get the hard line. Like, yes, you will. We're gonna get you out there throwing a football and, you know, chopping wood. We're gonna. Right, we're gonna cut those highlights right out of your hair and you. Those frosted tips are just gonna hit the floor and. And you are going to be talking about tits before the night is over. You are getting it, making it happen.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] We just earned our explicit rating.

Guest [00:23:06] Thank you.

Clark Johnsen [00:23:09] I was going to say the P word, but I thought maybe that would be going to. But, you know, when you live in New York, you don't know what's a swear word anymore because, you know, especially

John Dehlin [00:23:20] after being in the musical.

Clark Johnsen [00:23:22] Correct. Yeah. Speaking of the musical, there's, you know, one of the sort of like, funniest, funniest experiences during, you know, I'll get back to what I was saying in a minute. But one of the funniest experiences of being in, you know, the Book of Mormon on Broadway was having a musical director conducting the end. You know, the end of Hasadiga Iboi, where they're like, fuck you, God in the cunt, you know, and being like, can I really get a little more tea on cunta? Because, you know, like, you're just like, this is a totally normal. You know, meanwhile, the show that I did right before this one or a couple shows before is Mary Poppins, you

John Dehlin [00:24:06] know,

Clark Johnsen [00:24:09] Chim chimney, Chim chimney in the conta. You know, it's just like, what. What world are we living in where this, like, we're. We're getting. We're giving. We're getting annunciation notes on how to say fuck you, God in the. The eye, you know, all that stuff, you know, so anyway, you. You can cut all that out. I'm sure some of your audience doesn't want. Doesn't want to hear.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Not for this musical.

Clark Johnsen [00:24:36] Oh, that's true. Well, exactly. I mean, my justification when I was still in the Mormon paradigm for occasionally watching rated R movies was, well, my life is gonna. My life is rated R because it has adult Themes. So I feel that, you know, if my life is rated R, I can certainly go watch, you know, whatever movie is rated R that's on those. Anyway, Justify. Justify. Justify is my middle name. So, anyway, my sort of experience with the BYU group was very interesting because there was also. There was a group. I had individual sessions, and he said, you know, I'd like to invite you to be part of our group therapy. I have a group of other men struggling with this issue, and the only thing we ask is that you sign this rider that, you know, you promise that you won't have sex with anyone in the group. And I said, oh, that's so unusual. Is that something that, you know? And he was like, well, you know, the only way I could get BYU to agree to have this group was to, you know, promise that everyone would sign this rider, you know, because of course, a rider is going to stop two men from getting it on if they're really wanting to anyway. It's very. I mean, if the honor code's not stopping them, I don't know why signing an extra rider is going to help. But I, for one, didn't have sex with anyone in the group. So I would just like to say that.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Congratulations.

Clark Johnsen [00:26:08] Yes, thank you very much. I wasn't attracted to anyone in the group, but that doesn't matter. Right. So anyway, it was very formative because I had, you know, I met a bunch of other gay people. I met a bunch of other Mormons struggling with this. I think one of the biggest factors for a young gay Mormon is the feeling of isolation. You know, I'm the only one. There's no one else like me. There are no other gay Mormons out there, and there's no one ahead of me whose experience I can draw from. And there are no voices. I mean, at the time, there were no Mormon voices, gay Mormon voices out there.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] Just Carolyn Pearson. Right.

Clark Johnsen [00:26:51] Well, yeah, and even Carolyn Pearson at the time, you know, no More Goodbyes hadn't come out yet. And so, of course, in 93, in. No, no more Goodbyes was the one.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Oh, right, right, right. Sorry, sorry.

Clark Johnsen [00:27:04] Yeah. And I wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Goodbye, I love you had come out

Clark Johnsen [00:27:06] Goodbye, I love you, which I hadn't read because that wasn't. The Internet, didn't exist, and I had no way of knowing that that book existed.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Goodbye, I love you.

Clark Johnsen [00:27:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] Okay.

Clark Johnsen [00:27:16] So, I mean, I discovered that sort of way way later. And so there was. There was. As far as I knew, there was no information. And.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] And there was evergreen, though, right?

Clark Johnsen [00:27:25] There was evergreen and I found that in my own research into Evergreen, it just didn't seem like a good fit for where I was in life. I was also, at the time, I was very set on going on a mission. And so all my decisions were based on that. And again, I think that was like, I've got to give this, I've got to give this to my parents because my older brother did not go on a mission. By this point, he's completely sort of separated himself from the church. And, you know, I'm looking at all my younger brothers going, well, if I don't go on a mission, then maybe they won't too. And that will be sort of on my conscience. And so. And I legitimately wanted to go on a mission. I mean, I felt like I wanted to. Of course, as I look back, it's hard to distinguish. I mean, I think a lot of Mormons can relate with this feeling, but, you know, it's hard to distinguish your own wishes from the wishes you've been programmed to have, because what's the difference, you know? And I mean, you know, to take a song from, from, you know, turn it off like a light switch, you know, I mean, it's like if you're having a feeling that doesn't comply with what, you know, you should be feeling, well, that feeling, we just turn it off, you know, we're not going to pay any attention to the man behind the curtain over there. I mean, you just, you know, anything, you have, anything that you feel that sort of promotes the gospel's agenda for you, that's a good feeling and that's an appropriate feeling and that's where we're going to, you know, And I like, I just. All those, you know, gay analogies that are like, you've got this tree and you've got that tree and you should water the tree that is going to sprout into the gospel's fruit and the tree over here that's going to sprout into all the gay fruits, you know, there's a lot of gay fruit out there. Exactly. You know, you're not going to water that tree. So it's, you know, it's all about what you give your attention to. And so of course you're having all these conflicting, you know, these conflicting emotions and these conflicting feelings, but you just say, I'm going to put my attention here. And so for me, a mission was non negotiable. And so I had this really, really bizarre, very individualized version of my own pre mission morality and what I felt comfortable in terms of exploring my sexuality, for instance, like, I was willing to, like, make out with a guy at, you know, so in byu, I've met all these people. And of course, like, the minute you sort of, you know, start meeting a few gay people, you realize that there's this just like, big underground of homosexuality at byu. Can you. What, at byu? No, literally. And there was, you know. Oh, this is just one of my favorite. This is one of my favorite things in the history of, like, gay Mormondom is, you know, all of the kids at BYU would go to this gay club called the Sun. Does anyone remember the Sun? No. Anyone? The sun was fabulous. You know, the sun, it was like. It was just this, like, seedy little gate. And it was, like, right next to. What's it called? Where the Utah Jazz play. I'm not that into sports.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Delta Center Energy Solutions.

Clark Johnsen [00:30:41] Yes, exactly. So it was, like, right there. And so we would drive there. And of course, I was 18 or before my mission, and so I couldn't get in. But there was this foolproof way of jumping over this back wall and climbing over this roof and getting into the club. And then you're in the club. It's so fun. So anyway, we would all go to the club. And then. And then there was some. Was it a tornado or a hurricane that came through? Tornado. And it destroyed the sun. And it was like, well, God destroyed the sun, you know, and so we jump over the. There's, you know, we jump over the roof, we go into the sun. And of course, the minute I get inside, I start talking to this returned missionary, this gay returned missionary about going on a mission in the middle of the gay club. And it's like, do you believe in life after love? And I'm like, I just really want to go on a mission. And so, you know, so he says. He says, well, you know, but why would you go on a mission? You already know you're gay? He was like, I just don't. I just don't understand why you would want to do this. And I, you know, I said, well, I just really. I really want to go. I think it's. I think it's, you know. And he's like, well, I. You know, he really tried to talk me out of it. You know, he was like, I just. I don't see any reason for you to do this because you're not going to end up in the church. You're going to end up out of the church. Like, you know, everybody else that's gay, you kind of figure out that it's not going to work. And I was like, well, I think it is going to work for me. You know, I think I can make it work. And he was like, okay, well, you know, at least if you decide to go on a mission, please know that it's not going to change your sexuality. At least know that God is not going to make you straight because you go and baptize a bunch of people for the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] He was trying to save you heartbreak.

Clark Johnsen [00:32:43] And all the time, he was, yeah, he was like. He was like, at least know that that's not going to be the result of it. And if you want to go, go and go for the merit of going and having this experience and maturing and growing up and learning things about yourself, but do not expect to change your sexuality. And so, you know, as I submitted my papers and as I started my mission and as I went through the missionary training center and, you know, started having this experience of being. Being a missionary, you know, was always in the back of my mind that, you know, this. This is not going to change you. You're going to, you know, and I knew that I was going to have to deal with all of these questions about my sexuality when I got home. But there's something so interesting about. I think there's something so interesting about this. This mission thing for young Mormon men, because in a way, I was very shielded from having to really consider how I was going to handle my homosexuality and how I was going to handle my choices of being, how I was going to be in the church. Because when you've got two years of a mission, it's just like this huge buffer to real life and making decisions about how. Because it's all great in theory. And I remember having a sort of really, really heated argument with this girl at byu. She didn't go to byu, but she went to Utah Valley at the time, Utah Valley State College. And, you know, she. I think I mentioned, well, yeah, one day I would like to get married. And I think that, you know, God's gonna provide a ram in the thicket for me to, you know, sacrifice, you know. You know, it's funny because I really actually use that analogy, not grasping the sort of, like, irony of, like, the ram's gonna get some stabbed. God will provide a ram in the thicket for me to marry, you know. And so, you know, and she was like, well, yeah, that's all fine for you. You know what you're dealing with, and you know that you're sacrificing your own ability to be totally sexually and emotionally invested in a relationship. But what about the woman you marry and what about what you're asking her to give up? And I actually, I felt really ashamed of myself because I had never considered what her life would be like. I had only considered my own outcomes and my own sacrifices and what I would be giving up. And it's one thing to give up your own sexual fulfillment, and it's one thing to be giving up your own sort of ability to be fully authentic in a relationship, but it's another thing to inflict that upon someone else who no matter how much you explain, even if you do, in the best case scenario, really explain. I'm not attracted to you. I'm attracted to men. However, I want to marry you because that's what God wants me to do. And I'm going to be a great husband and I'm going to be a great father. And I promise you, I'm never going to, you know, have any extramarital relationships. I will probably never be attracted to you the way that you deserve. But I promise you, I'll have sex with you and I will make sure to meet your sexual needs as much as possible. And I will fulfill my husbandly duties. I mean, you can explain this stuff till you're blue in the face and a faithful Mormon girl is going to be like, uh huh huh. I totally understand. You're absolutely going to change. The minute you have sex with me, you're going to feel differently. And that is a story I have seen play out again and again and again and again and sort of played out for me in my last sort of run at Mormonism. And so I'm sort of skipping ahead here. But in 2004 I was. I got my first Broadway show, which ironically was a. I was a drag queen in La Cage A full. The Broadway revival of La Cage Aux was my Broadway debut. And so I was still, you know, tbm, and I was still wearing my garments and I was still very much invested in the idea that even though I had. I had come out to everyone in my family, everyone knew that I was gay. I was constantly talking about homosexuality and Mormonism. I woke up in the morning and it was basically like buttering my bread. The homosexual Mormon plight. I mean, it's really. I talked about it. You know, my cousin Eric is here tonight as well. And you know, he can speak to this as well. It's just that, you know, it was such an obsession. And I know a lot of other gay and lesbian Mormons can relate to this. It's just like everything you think about is this struggle and this, you know, this kind of these two sides of how you're going to figure this out. And so I met this girl at church and I saw her and she was a very pretty girl. And I was like, she's really pretty. I think she's really pretty. Wow, that must be, that must be. This must be some version of heterosexual feelings, right? I notice her beauty. That's, you know, of course, everything's like this extrapolation of, you know, so I go up to her and I ask her out and I get her number and we go out. And, you know, when is a good time to spring on someone you're dating that you're gay and that you want to marry her anyway? You know, there's just never a good time to say I'm gay and I'm never gonna be attracted to you or really love you, but I would love to marry you and take you to the celestial kingdom with me. So, you know, I thought three dates was probably a good, you know, good amount of time trying to, you know, it's like telling someone you have herpes. When do you bring that up?

Mission Life and Hiding His Sexuality

Guest [00:38:43] Right away.

Clark Johnsen [00:38:44] So anyway, so, you know, around our third or fourth date, I said, you know, look, I want to talk to you about something kind of serious. And. And she said, okay. And I said, you know, I, you may or may not have noticed or heard this, and she happened to be a dancer, and so she, you know, had exposure to gay men, as all dancers do. And so I said, you know, I struggle with same sex attraction, but I want you to know I'm very committed to the gospel and I am committed to not living a gay lifestyle, whatever a gay lifestyle is. And I, you know, I just want you to have all the information about this, about my situation and what I'm dealing with. And I want to give you an out if you want. If you don't want to date me. You know, this is not for everyone. And I realize that I'm putting you in a little bit of a, you know, a difficult situation, but I wanted to tell you this early on so that you could kind of date someone else if you feel like this isn't something you want to do. And like any, you know, like many Mormons, you know, when, when the wheel is presented, you put your shoulder to it, right? So she, you know, was. She was like, well, you know, this, this sounds like something that, you know, it's, it's a challenge and it sounds like a Challenge we could face together and maybe it'll bring us closer to really face, you know what I mean? This is just, this is, you know, tale as old as time, you know, true as it could be. I mean, this is like, you know, and in some ways I think it's a Mormon, a heterosexual Mormon woman's fantasy of like, I will save him. I will save him from a life of aids, loneliness, spiritual death, you know, sterility. I'm going to give him posterity. I'm going to, I'm going to show him the love of a woman and that is going to heal what is wrong with him in a profound way. And this is my chance to reflect the Savior's love to someone who needs the Atonement more than anybody. And I'm going to be that window to his love. I'm going to be that vessel and you know, and we're going to, I'm going to be part of saving him. You know, I think that's a very attractive package for a lot of heterosexual Mormon women. And they're, they're kind of like, this is my chance to, you know, prove my mettle and see what I'm made of. And this is my, you know, especially someone who hasn't necessarily faced a lot of personal challenges. They're like, yeah, I'll pick this up, I'll do it. So we're dating, we're dating. We're, we're going along in our relationship and we're, you know, we're hitting the three month mark, you know, when you need to propose. Right. And I remember, you know, we were sort of on this diverging mental pathway because I was starting to feel anxious and not. And I have a very, very good. One of my closest friends from BYU who I met in this gay group that I was in at byu. He married a woman. He married a woman who is his best friend for 10 years. She was as close to an ideal mixed orientation marriage scenario as I can imagine because she wasn't introduced to homosexuality from knowing him. They had been friends for 10 years. She knew all his gay friends. She knew what a gay man is. She knew what marrying a gay man would mean. Or I think at least at the time, she thought she understood all of the ramifications of what marrying a gay man would be. And so, you know, I had a very close friend in this sort of situation. And as I just considered, as I began to really consider and have some empathy for this person who I had come to really care about in this three month period of Time I just realized that I could never give her what I felt she deserved. And that's a really. That's a really weird thing to say, to look at someone and be like, I love you enough to tell you that I know that I can't. I can't make this happen for you. I cannot give you. And I know that I want to be with someone who is attracted to me, genuinely attracted to me. And she was genuinely attracted to me. She was very attracted to me, and she made that very clear. And she was very demonstrative, and I could be demonstrative back, but I wasn't feeling it, and she knew I wasn't feeling it. But I think she wanted to stay the course. And so I remember we sort of, you know, had this big conversation, and she was like, you know what? I think we should take this to the next level. And I. And it was that exact moment where I was like, I think we should end. I think we should end this. And I remember my mom came to New York and I introduced her to my mom, and I was like, this is a girl I'm dating. I'm really thinking about moving to the next level. And my mom, I think, was very caught in this. Well, of course I want you to be married, and of course I want you to have all the blessings of the gospel. But my mom wasn't excited about it. She didn't seem like, this is wonderful. You found this person. This is going to be so great for you. She was like, okay, well, you know, I think that if you want to do this, then you can do it. And I was so confused. I was like, I'm doing this for you, basically, like, a lot of it, to kind of continue to prop up

John Dehlin [00:44:20] your

Clark Johnsen [00:44:23] success as a parent, you know, because, you know, as a parent, you know, if you can get a child to. Based on your teaching of Mormonism to them, if you can get that child to be celibate and agree to spend their life alone, then you have taught them Mormonism, right? I mean, you have succeeded in convincing them that if they're willing to sacrifice their own humanity on that level to say, I will be alone, I will never know the joy of love. I will never know the joy of sexual connection. I am willing to sacrifice that for the gospel. That's how true the gospel is. I mean, what better success as a parent can you feel than being like, wow, my child is willing to totally make themselves miserable to follow the gospel. If that's not Mormonism, I don't know what is. So I expected to get a little more praise from my mom on this, and she didn't give me any. And that sort of gave me pause. I was like, well, maybe she's not feeling that great about this either, and maybe I'm not either. Anyway, I ended things with this girl, and then my next move was to buy no Man Knows My History. And I know that a lot of your readers have a big part of their departure from the Gospel is. Is more of an intellectual journey out of the woods than an emotional one. Because I think as a Mormon, it's really hard to trust your emotions because your emotions have been so manipulated by what you should be feeling. And the whole concept of, like, well, you don't. You're not ready to bury your testimony yet, but go up and bury your testimony anyway, because that's how you. That's how you find out that it's true by telling people it's true before you even know it, which is a whole psychological conundrum of its own. But, you know, for me, I didn't. It fell apart very, very, very quickly when I read. After I read that book, I kind of didn't need a lot more than that, which surprised me because I thought that it would be much more difficult to get my mind out of the this locked in paradigm. And, you know, I had, I had, I had, I had. I hadn't seriously contemplated suicide, but I thought about death frequently because I was so stressed out living in this world of conflict, and I couldn't get out of the conflict. And I wasn't enjoying being in the church because there was no real future for me in the church. And particularly when this relationship with this girl ended. Because here I have this person. I've told her what's going on. I've been totally honest. I have shared with her what I consider to be the ramifications of marrying a gay man. I've been as honest with her as I can be. She wants to go forward with it. I'm not being deceptive. I'm telling the truth. She wants to move forward. She wants to marry me.

Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

Guest [00:47:38] And.

Clark Johnsen [00:47:39] And if that doesn't feel right, then what else am I supposed to do? There's nothing else to do. Like, that should have felt right. If the church was right about this topic and right about my path on what I'm supposed to accomplish on Earth, then that should have felt right. There should have been some sort of angelic choir supporting me as I sang my solo out front, you know, and there was. There was nothing. It was this Again, like, you know, like that first kiss I had with the girl, you know, this feeling of emptiness and kind of like, why do I feel so drained of my own vitality? Why do I feel so lost? And so, you know, I remember and I mentioned this before, but, you know, I think it's something that a lot of maybe, you know, even people who aren't gay, who are struggling with their Mormon, their faith and how they're not feeling good in the church. I remember that a lot of people are afraid of flying. They're like, oh, what if the plane crashes? It's so scary. You're up so high. I swear this is not an exaggeration. Every time a plane would take off, I'd be like, if this plane crashed, that'd be okay. I mean, if we went down in a flaming fireball, that would be okay. It'd be a little bit of a relief for me because I'm tired, you know, and here I am, a 23 or 24 year old man, feeling exhausted by my life and carrying these two worlds. And the crux of it all is that I'm unhappy in the church. But I would be just as unhappy if I left the church because without the gospel, I'm nothing. Without the gospel, I have no access to the Holy Ghost, which is the source of all my joy, which is the source of all my inspiration and the source of all my wonderful qualities. And you know, it's just this like terrible catch 22 to be in this world where you have no hope, you have no choices. You can't stay in the church because it sucks. And you can't leave the church because that sucks too. So you're, you're just, it sucks. Like it just, it's, there's, there's no way out of it. So I was really caught in that. And I think a big part of my faith was really believing that life outside the church would leave me unhappy, would leave me alone and I wouldn't have any of my good qualities. And of course there's that whole, you know, weird ward manipulation thing of like, oh, well, you know, she lost all the light in her countenance. After she left the church, I saw her and she just. The bags under her eyes were so, you know, if she had the spirit, those bags would have been way smaller and they would have been Louis Vuitton, you know, like, it's just like, it's that weird thing. And I remember, you know, after I, after I read no Man Knows My History and I'm sort of moving out of the church. I remember my mom, you know, she threw that at me. This was, you know, her.

Guest [00:50:43] She.

Clark Johnsen [00:50:43] My dad sort of was like, it's okay. You know, My dad's reaction to me wanting to leave the church was, you seem like a pretty smart person to me, and if you feel like this is what you need to do, you've obviously thought it through, and I don't think you've made this decision lightly. You told us you were gay almost 10 years ago by this point. I was, you know, 20, 27, 28. And he was like, you gave it a try. You did your best. You tried to make it work. You dated that girl. You didn't feel good about it. This might be a better decision for you, and I think we should just support you. And my mom was like, over my dead body. You know, And I think she felt like my blood and sins were going to be on her head if she didn't do everything she could. So she pulled out the. You've lost all the light in your countenance. She pulled out the. You know, she pulled out the. You know, the temple. You know, you're now going to be in Satan's power because you haven't upheld the covenants that you made in the temple in this day. And, you know, all I'm thinking about is Michael Balam's dramatic exit with that stick, you know, the fling of the cape, you know, and I'm just like,

John Dehlin [00:51:58] he's kind of a drama queen.

Guest [00:51:59] Is.

Clark Johnsen [00:52:00] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] He's kind of a diva. Michael Balam was a diva.

Guest [00:52:03] And.

Clark Johnsen [00:52:04] And of course, Satan's a really big diva. I mean, Satan's the biggest diva there is. You know, everything's red, please, Queen. You know, minions all over around you. Anyway, so. So I don't know. Where do we want to.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] No, it's good. So your mom gave you a hard time, but ultimately, what'd you do?

Coming Out to Family and Their Reactions

Guest [00:52:27] So

Clark Johnsen [00:52:30] this was a really big turning point for me in my relationship with my parents and especially my mom, because what occurred to me was that in my attempt to soften the blow of my leaving the church and my decision to start to alienate myself from the church or my favorite, become disaffected, which is. I don't know if this is what they're still writing on the excommunication letters, but it's apparent that you have become disaffected with the Mormon Church in the process of trying to sort of ease the blow of this, because this was a much bigger. This was a much harder pill for them to swallow than my homosexuality. Because of course my homosexuality is a non issue if I'm going to stay in the church, right? Who cares? You're going to be celibate for the rest of your life. You're going to follow the commandments. You're not going to be this mark on our posterity. You're not going to break up our eternal family. Who cares that you're gay? Fabulous. You can help us decorate the living room. It needs a touch up. So it occurred to me that in trying to protect them from what would ultimately be, you know, a big blow to their Mormon self esteem, I realized what I was doing was really apologizing for my departure from the church and what it looked like. What I realized that I was conveying to them was confusion, distress and crying for help. And, and what I felt inside was certainty. I knew that I needed to finish my relationship with the church. I knew I needed to leave the church. I knew it was an unhealthy environment for me. I had seen, you know, I'd started to realize by talking to like normal people that not everybody thinks about death when a plane goes up in the air. Who knew? You know, I was like, I'm wishing for my own death. That's not good. And then during this time period, I had a young man from my home ward who reached out to me and said, you know, I'm at byu, I have a group of friends who, we're all gay and we're trying to find our way through this conundrum of gay Mormonism. And you seem like you're kind of making your way and I wondered if I could ask for your advice on a couple of different things and could we talk on the phone? And I said, yes, of course we can talk on the phone. When would you like to talk? And he said, cool, can we, can we talk on Sunday? And you know, it was a Thursday. And so I said great. And so I called, So I call him on Sunday and he, he says, I'm sorry, I have a really sore throat and I'm very sick today. Do you mind? Can we talk, can we talk next Sunday instead? And I said, of course, of course, I'll call you next Sunday. And on the following Thursday I got an email that said, if you're receiving this email, you were listed in Alan's contacts and he has taken his life. And of course this had an incredible impact on me. And I, you know, I just thought, should I have tried to keep him on the phone on Sunday and said, no, let's talk. Let's talk today. You know, I mean, it's that thing where you. You feel sort of like I had this chance to help someone, and because of circumstances, you couldn't. You know, you couldn't. You couldn't help them. And that he couldn't wait three more days to. Or call me or say, you know, I know it's not Sunday yet, but I really want to talk, you know, that he would go in his garage and turn on a car and end his life rather than try to figure out another way. And so I was already on my way with my parents, telling them about my departure from the church, and I was already. But this, for me was a solidifying experience, and I really came to terms with something that helped me a lot. And that was the idea of if you have to make a choice between leaving the church or leaving the earth by your own hand, leaving the church is the better option. Whatever the consequences of that are, whatever the consequences leaving the church may bring in your life, the unknown, damnation, God's condemnation, parental disapproval, societal rejection, whatever consequences may come about, it's still. Even if you end up living your life in outer darkness for eternity, you know, at least stay, Stay on earth. Don't stay here. Stay here and figure it out, work it out. Try. Try to do something. And so my mom and I were already sort of in talks, and, you know, she was throwing the countenance, Loss of my light in my countenance. And one of the things she said was, you know, every good quality that you have came from the church, and you're throwing that all back in the church's face. And how can you walk away. How can you walk away from this? This is, this is. This is the eternal gospel of Jesus Christ. And you are walking away from it. I mean, it was, it was the. It's the. It's the pinnacle of what every Mormon parent feels. I can't say many Mormon parents feel when their child is leaving the church. You, we. Everything good that you ever, that you ever experienced came from, came from the gospel. And you have, you have. You have received the fruit of that tree. And it was most sweet above all that is sweet. And you've eaten of that tree, and now you're walking away and jumping into the river of filthy water, and here you are. And so I, you know, my mom and I were already kind of discussing all of this, and after Alan committed suicide, I said, mom, you know, my mom was still in Houston at the time. That's where his family was living and she said, I went to Alan's funeral. And I said, well, what did they say? And, you know, she said, well, they said that he was struggling with depression. And that was. You know. And I said. I said, well, mom, you know, Alan was gay. Alan was gay. And she was like. She was like, oh, I don't. I don't know. I think he was just depressed. And I said, mom, I said, I had email exchanges with him. I've explained this to you. He told me he's gay, he was struggling. We were gonna have a phone conversation. And she said, well, you know, he was probably just really depressed. And I was like, mom, why do you think he was depressed? I was like, when are you gonna get it? I was like, is it gonna take me dying for you to, like, get it through your head that this is a violent atmosphere for a gay person to be in? This is a violent atmosphere. People are killing themselves. People are dying. And no one is saying, we care about these lives. These lives matter. Let's stop these people from doing violence to themselves. Let's say something that helps them to want to live. This is not fair. They shouldn't be dying. But, you know, it's. I don't know, maybe there's this feeling that it's collateral damage. You know, the war between good and evil goes on, and sometimes you lose a few lives in the process, and maybe these are just collateral damage. And. And at this point, I was very mobilized in my own feeling of I matter and I matter and my life matters, and I'm not going to be cast aside for any philosophy or any faith paradigm. I don't know if it's true. I don't know if it's false. I don't know if there is a God. I don't know if there isn't a God. But what I know is that I'm not going to be collateral damage to some faith paradigm that I can't even back up. That all I know is that I've been told that I would feel a certain way, and that way will tell me that that gospel paradigm is true. You know, I was like, something that's causing me to want to die can't be good for me. You know, here I am drinking poison every day, and the poison is making me die. And I'm saying, no, no, this poison is the nectar of life. But I'm dying, and I know that I'm dying. You know, that's. Eventually you say, I don't care if this is the nectar of life. It's Killing me. So I'm going to stop. I'm going to stop drinking it. And so I think Alan's death was something that made me say, I want to live and I want to spend the rest of my life doing what I can to make sure other people don't die too. And I'm certainly not going to die from this. I'm not going to go down the road of thinking that I should die anymore. And I want to live and I want to be here and I want to do what I can to help. So what I realized with my parents was that they needed me to be the adult. They needed me to be a leader. And that was, you know, that's an unfamiliar, uncharted territory, I think, for many Mormons because we're used to being guided by people who have answers and we're not used to making decisions and having to wield our own machete and shoot, you know, through the forest ourselves. The path is clear, the path is straight, you know, and we should stay on it and it's laid out in front of us. And so when I realized that my, what my, you know, what I was in, what I was unintentionally doing was saying, help me, Mom. Help me, Mom. I'm afraid, I'm lost, I'm scared. What I was trying to do was say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that this hurts you. But what she was hearing was, help me, help me. And of course she was throwing me the one life raft she had. That's the gospel. And she was throwing it hard, you know, she was throwing the scriptures hard at me. And so when I realized that, I said to myself, oh, she just needs. She just needs me to be the grown up here and say, mom, I love you. I am leaving the church. And the reason I'm leaving the church isn't because I hate Mormonism or because I hate you and dad, or I think that it was wrong of you to raise me Mormon. I love what I learned in the church. I love the opportunities for development it gave me. I'm grateful, but I don't believe in it anymore. I think it's a violent place for me to be. I have evidence of that violence from myself and from my life experience. And I need to leave. And what I need for you to do is to love me. I need you to love me. And if you can't love everything about me, then pick the things about me that you love and love those and ignore the rest. Which is exactly what I had to do with all the stuff in Mormonism that I didn't like, right? I'm like, you're trained for this, okay? Just ignore the stuff that you don't like and focus on the things that you do. And, you know, and there it is. And so she, you know, it took a couple of years of patience. And where I have to give. Where I have to give my mom major credit. Major, major credit is that she never turned her back on me. She never said, I don't want to talk about this. I don't want to have this discussion with you. She always said, I want to know what you're thinking. I want to know what books you're reading. After I read no More Goodbyes by Carolyn Pearson, which was right during the same time Alan's suicide, all of these other things, me changing my course, me, I stopped attending church and realized that I really, really, really liked Sunday brunch much more than Sunday school. And I liked a boozy Sunday brunch more than I liked Sunday school. I mean, you know, so anyway, all of this. So she said, you know, what are you reading? And I said, I'm reading this book by Carolyn Pearson. And my mom loved Carolyn Pearson's PO and she loved My Turn on Earth and all these things. And so I said, well, Carolyn Pearson's written this book, and why don't you read it? And she read the book and she was like, you know, I don't like what this book is saying. And I said, well, I really do. This book is making me feel like I want to live my life and not die. And she was like, well, I think this is a dangerous message. I love the word dangerous in the Mormon paradigm. You know, the spiritual crocodiles. Does anyone remember the seminary video about, you know, do you remember. Did you ever see the spiritual crocodiles video? So, you know, you. It's the young ones that get that get chomped by the spiritual crocodiles. And so anyway, my mom didn't. She didn't like that book, but she read it and she talked with me about it. And then, you know, a year. A year passed. And, you know, I was in a. I was, you know, before I met Matt, my current boyfriend, I was in another relationship, and she didn't want us to stay at her at her house. You know, she didn't feel comfortable having us stay there together. And, you know, I didn't say, f you, Mom. We're never going to come back again. You know, I said, okay, well, you're lost. We'll get a hotel. And, you know, we'll try again in a year, you know, and so my, you know, my. I'm really passionate about how gay people or people struggling with their faith that are straight, that are struggling with Mormonism and considering getting out of the church. I feel really strongly about the way that it can go very, very well, and the way that it can go very wrong. And I'm really passionate about the person leaving the church being extremely patient with the people in their lives who are hurt or who are angry or who slam the door in their face. You know, I wish that everyone who was leaving the church would say, okay, I'll try again in a year, or I'll try again in six months. I am not going to turn my back on these people. I'm going to give them some time. I'm going to show them all the love that I wish they would show me. That doesn't mean that you turn the other cheek and say, slap me again. You know, maybe you walk away from the relationship for a while and say, I'll try again in a year, you know, And I really feel that it's, you know, the responsibility of the people. I really wish that Mormons and, you know, believing Mormons would accept people's departure from the church with as much grace, with as much love, with as much dignity, with as much even excitement and happiness as they accept someone's baptism into the church. I wish there was a way for Mormons to say, you don't want to be here anymore if you don't feel that this is the right place for you. We love you and we want you to be happy. And not so that they'll. Not so that that person will have a good impression of Mormons so they'll come back again in a year. Not to set a good example, but because if you really love someone, you're willing to let them go. You're willing to let them do what they feel is best. Even if you think it's a mistake. They're an adult and they should be given the right to walk away from the church with your blessing. And, you know, the whole concept of apostasy and the whole concept of people being like, well, you are now, you're gonna feel awful and you're gonna die alone, and you're never gonna be, you know, I mean, which is, you know, this just hatred, you know, and when someone joins the church and someone's baptized and they're in their beautiful white clothes and, you know, a deacon's baptizing them, you know, it's like everyone's crying. And here you are leaving the church and people are angry at you, they're angry at you for leaving the church. I just, I feel like, you know, where is the agency? Someone should have the right to walk away and have people be like, if this is what you feel is best for your life, we love you. And I want, I didn't just love you because you were a Mormon. I didn't love you because you believed the same things. I loved you because I love you. What you do and believe doesn't matter. And so I feel like the person who's leaving the church needs to be very patient because a lot of times we're already up to here by the time we want to leave the church. And anybody who says, well, now, have you really thought about, we're like, f you, you're not supporting me, you're not loving me, slam, you know, because we've already put up with so much and we didn't say anything, you know, and I, you know, I think that where, where I like to, where I like to be and where I like to consider my relationship with the church is and with my family, because I have, you know, most of my family is still in the church and I have a great deal of love for the people who are in, who are in my family who are in the church. I feel that they have a great deal of love and compassion for me. I feel like they accept me as a full fledged, you know, non marginalized citizen in the family. I feel like I'm given equal say and I, you know, I just, I wish that other people who are leaving the church and other families who are watching their loved one leave the church could show patience and love and that it could be a healing process that brings people together instead of tears people apart.

John Dehlin [01:10:52] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. To continue the conversation or to keep these podcasts alive through a financial contribution, please check us out@mormonstories.org and thanks for listening.

Musical Interlude: Tomorrow Is a Latter Day

Guest [01:11:04] I am a Latter Day Saint today I help all those I can I see my friends through times of joy and sorrow Times of joy and sorrow what happens when we're dead? We shouldn't think that far ahead the only Latter Day that matters is tomorrow the skies are clearing and the sun's coming out It's a ladder day tomorrow Got your worries and your sorrows and your cares away and focus on the Latter Day Tomorrow is a ladder day Woo. I am a Latter Day dream Along with all my town we always stick together Come once more Wanna make it so we love to dance and shout and let all our feelings out and work to make a better Latter Day. For each other every step of the way and make a Latter Day tomorrow? I hate Americans already from the joyful aids? But they're saving it for a Latter Day? Yeah, Tomorrow is a Latter Day? I believe Tomorrow is a Latter Day's a Latter Day? Tomorrow's a bigger Latter Ladder Day? Tomorrow Tomorrow is a Latter Day? I be a demon? Mormons happy it's because we know it's a Ladder Day tomorrow? So if you sad, put your hands together and pray that tomorrow's gonna be a Latter Day? And then it probably will be a Latter Day? Tomorrow is a Ladder Day.

Part Two Introduction and Content Warning

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 519

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Because of the language contained in the Book of Mormon musical, this episode does contain some swearing and being like, can

Clark Johnsen [00:00:06] I really get a little more tea on top?

John Dehlin [00:00:10] We just earned our explicit rating.

Guest [00:00:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Consequently, listener discretion is advised. Nonetheless, don't be fooled. This interview with Clark Johnson is totally awesome. To check out the video version of this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to keep these podcasts alive, please consider a financial contribution. Contribution today@mormonstories.org and thanks for listening. Hello, and welcome to part two of my interview with Clark Johnson. I'm John Dehlin. This is Mormon Stories podcast. We've talked a lot about Clark's life. We've talked about his experience as a young gay Mormon, his experiences coming to terms with his decision to leave the church and how his family reacted. And it's seriously one of the most brilliant, I don't know, hour and a half or so of Mormon stories that I've sat through. So if you haven't checked out that part, check it out. But now we're going to dive deep into the Book of Mormon musical, and I'm super excited. I've got tons of notes that I wrote on my car drive down from Logan this morning. People are, like, shaking their fist at me, and I'm like, I'm not texting, I'm writing. That's not bad, is it? So, Clark, so just really quickly, you weren't in musical theater in high school?

Clark's Background in Musical Theatre

Clark Johnsen [00:01:45] No. Yeah, I loved musicals. And my family, like many Mormon families, grew up watching, you know, a lot of golden era musicals. And I was certainly familiar with almost anything I could get my hands on in terms of musical recordings. I was very into the genre, but I wasn't an actor. I didn't think I would be any good at acting. But of course, I played two instruments and was into music. And my first semester at byu, I happened to take a modern dance class because I thought that that would be fun. And my parents saw my. My schedule and were like, what is this? You know, among the other general elective. What is this? Modern day? Oh, no, it's a P.E. credit is what it really is. It's a P.E. credit. And so, you know, through sort of the next semester, I took. I fell in love with dance and with dancing. And the next semester I enrolled, I was in seven dance classes and, you know, including folk dance, tap, jazz, ballet, you know, the whole gamut. So after I got back from my mission, I auditioned for the musical theater program, and I kind of got in by the skin of my teeth because I didn't have any experience, but of course I'd sung in church choirs and whatnot. And so my first play that I was in was actually just a couple months after my mission. So I was 21 and I was sort of getting my feet wet with theater and falling in love with the stage. And, you know, I never considered that it could be a viable career. You know, I didn't really know about Broadway or what Broadway was, even though I'd listened to all these cast recordings. To me, in my mind, Broadway was this magical kingdom, like Kolob, that you never, you don't know where it really is. Where is Broadway? These albums must just float down from the sky somewhere, you know, so when I got to school, you know, we had a couple. I had a couple students that were in the musical theater program at BYU that, you know, got cast in Les Mis on Broadway and they would go to New York and I was like, oh, Broadway's a place. It's a place you can go there and see. So as, you know, as I sort of went along in the musical theater program and I did some summer jobs here and there and I worked on a cruise ship and took a semester off school to go do that. And. And I still didn't really think that I was going to be able to make it. I never thought I was good enough to do anything with it, but I was enjoying it and I thought it was fun. And so I did a couple more plays at BYU and I graduated with a musical theater degree. But I also was pre med at BYU because, you know, I never thought that the theater thing would work out at all. And so I, you know, I was like, well, I want to go to medical school and that's what I should do. But by the time my graduation came around, I was like, well, maybe I'll give this a try. You know, a bunch of my other fellow graduates were moving to New York and trying to get agents and make this whole theater thing happen. And so I was like, well, I'll move to New York and I'll give it, I'll give it two years and then I'll, you know, take the MCAT and go to medical school. And within two years, I was in my first Broadway show and it sort of happened. And I, you know, things were kind of, you know, so my two year plan extended to 12 years, really, because I kept getting these great opportunities to perform. And so, you know, I was always a late bloomer in life, but I also was a late bloomer in my exposure to Theater. And it was never something I thought I could do. And it just sort of happened. You know, I was very fortunate and the right kinds of experiences came along and, you know, to be in a Broadway chorus, if you're a certain height and you have a certain build and you look a certain way, you can get more job. You're sort of like this cookie cutter chorus look, you know. And I'm exactly that height.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] Which is what height?

Clark Johnsen [00:06:15] Well, you know, around 5:10. You know, if you're 5:6, it's harder because you don't fit into a lineup of other chorus dancers. Or if you're 6 4, it's a little harder for you. You know, you can probably play like one role in hello Dolly Ambrose. You're too tall. So if you're like 59 to 6 1, you're in this little sweet spot. And so it's. It just. And I didn't have any dance training until college, but I had taken all these gymnastics classes as a child. And so I was able to do these, like, tumbling passes, which thanks to the pioneering efforts of Susan Stroman, you know, who directed and choreographed the Producers and Crazy for your and you know, numerous other things. She really got Broadway choreographers obsessed with tumbling passes. And so my first few years in theater, I wasn't as good of a dancer as a lot of the dancers because I had such limited experience. I mean, all my dance classes were from BYU and from three or four years of dance experience by the time I moved to New York. But I could do these really, really impressive tumbling passes. And so a lot of times I would get through the callback. And then I was. I had a lot more experience singing because of, you know, singing in church choirs and, you know, playing instruments and things like that. And so my first couple jobs I sort of lucked into by, you know, various circumstances that just happen to be kind of in my favor.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] So you have this impression of someone who wants to break into Broadway of, like, sleeping on flea infested mattresses and like, having to, like, sleep on the casting couch with, you know, and like starving and that it's just this grueling, awful experience before you break in. Is that true? Not true?

Clark Johnsen [00:08:02] Well, I mean, there are aspects of it that are absolutely 100% true. And then, of course, some of it's sort of exaggerated. I will say this. I, you know, I had several. I had a very notable sort of casting couch experience that was my very first introduction to Broadway. I took a trip before, during my last semester at byu, I Took a trip to New York to audition for plays. And it was like this, you know, I was like, okay, I'm going to go to New York. I've got a week, you know, I've got a week off for spring break. I'm going to go to New York City, and I'm just going to, you know, open Backstage, which was the sort of casting directory, and I'm going to go to some auditions. And so I found all these different chorus calls that I could go to, and one of them was a production of Babes in Arms. And I went to the audition and I got through the callbacks, and then I got through another round of callbacks. And the choreographer came out into the hall after one of my auditions. And he is just this dirty old man who is just wearing foundation during the day, you know, because you don't want to be, you know, you don't want to blemishes, you know. And he comes out and says. He says, oh, you know, you did such a great job in the audition. Is this your first time in New York? Yes, it is. It's my first time in New York. Oh, how interesting. And are you. Are you, you know, are you a student? Yes, I'm a student at, you know, I go to Brigham Young University in Utah. Oh, how interesting. Are you Mormon? Well, yes, I am Mormon, actually. Oh, how interesting. Well, I would love to show you around New York City, and would you mind if I called you? And I was like, okay, sure. You know, and so that that night, at 2:30 in the morning, he calls the, like, landline of the people that I'm, like, crashing on their couch and, like, wants to have this conversation. And then, you know, and of course, I'm like, well, I don't want to. I don't want to ruffle any feathers. And I really want this job because if I got this job, I could move to New York from BYU with a job that would sort of land me in, you know, a position where I could get my union card and all these things. And so I was like, I really want to get this job. And so we meet the next day. He walks me around the Upper west side. He goes to some flea market on the Upper west side, shows me around the city, and then he wants to hang out again. And then we go. He walks me, you know, we walk back to where he lives, and he's like, I'd love you to come upstairs and see my apartment. And I was like, no, I don't think I want to do that. And he was like, are you sure? And I was like, yeah, I'm sure. I don't want to do that. And like here I'm thinking this whole casting couch, you know, casting couch thing is some urban, you know, some theatrical myth. And like, first trip to New York, it's like, well, you could get the job, you know, if you come up to my apartment. And I'm like, I'm like, I refuse to prostitute myself for a stupid three, you know, six week job in New Jersey or wherever it was. It wasn't even a Broadway show. I mean, come on, you gotta have standards, right? You're gonna sleep with someone for a job at Let it be a good job, for heaven's sake, you know. So anyway, he, you know, he sort of made it very clear that if I didn't do it, I wasn't going to get the job. And then I didn't, I didn't get the job. And then I saw him after I moved to New York. I saw him later and he was sort of, you know, he acted really sort of weird and bitter. But then to his credit, you know, about six months later, I auditioned for him again for a production of 42nd street in Russia. And it was very clear that he, you know, just was very upset that I didn't, you know, go through. And I remember during my audition, he like looked up and acknowledged me, but he didn't acknowledge that he really knew me. And he seemed mad and I was like, great, now I'm not going to get this job either. But I was like, whatever, you know, again, you gotta have standards, right? So I was like, you know, and I'm not. I just, for me, I had medical school on the back burner. I was like, look, I'm not gonna have sex with someone for a frickin job. I don't care what job it is. This is ridiculous. Like, and plus, I was still Mormon. I'm like, well, I'm not gonna have sex with anyone anyway, so, you know, I'm certainly not gonna have sex with you, you know. You know, if the choreographer was cute, you know, at least maybe then you consider it, right? So anyway, so he gave me the job, he gave me the job and I went and did 42nd street in Russia. It was one of my first performing experiences. After I moved to New York, I got to go to Moscow for six months and tap and do this great tap show there. So the casting couch is definitely something that. What's odd is that I feel that it's much more prevalent for gay men. And for choreographers than it is for women. Because most, I mean, sorry for all the directors out there, but most directors and choreographers, at least in Broadway, like men, they're not into women. So women kind of get by. I mean, I'm sure Hollywood is a very different beast. I have absolutely no expertise in that version of the casting couch. But, you know, as far as the flea bitten, you know, bed and all the, you know, the Murphy, you know, the sleeping on top of seven flatmates and things like that, that certainly does exist. My first five weeks in New York, I borrowed $2,000 from my parents to get to New York and put a down payment on my first apartment, which was a room share with one of my BYU friends. And it was funny because I didn't have any more money to pay the next month. So I had sort of like three for my flight to New York and getting a cell phone, because I didn't have a cell phone when I was at byu. All, you know, these few things to set up my life in New York. I had no money, and so I was like, well, I need to make money for next month's rent. And so I went out and I got a waitering job. Just walked into a restaurant and was like, this seems like a nice restaurant. Let me just walk in here and see, you know, And I just threw all my, like Mormon missionary self at the guy. And he was like, well, we're not really hiring. And I was like, but you could be hiring. You could hire me. And I was like, I speak Spanish. I could talk to the bus, be a busboy, whatever you need. And he was like, oh, okay, we'll hire you. So he hired me. And then I got my first performing job in five weeks and I sort of started, you know, I sort of started doing traveling jobs. And so I never really had the experience of like, you know, 85 flatmates, you know, and sleeping on, you know, little cots or something like that, you know. But there are people that I know, friends of mine who are like, I'm an artist. I don't know where I'm going to be next month. But that's part of being an artist, you know, that was never really something that I think I could handle. And so, you know, those, those stereotypes are certainly there for a reason, but they may not be as sort of glamorized or as prevalent as one might assume.

Breaking Into Broadway: Advice for Aspiring Performers

John Dehlin [00:15:22] So three to five tips within a minute for the aspiring actor, comic, Broadway performer. What do you. What do you have to say to them if they're trying to break into something.

Clark Johnsen [00:15:32] Okay, So I. Now, not every performer agrees with this, but I think the best way to succeed in show business is to have something very viable that you can do instead. Because desperation is antithetical to success in the theater. It is antithetical to a good audition, and it's antithetical to good performing. If you are desperate, that is, no one is going to hire you. If you want to be hired, you need to seem like you could take this job or leave this job. And you're just great. And you're not stressing about whether you get this because you have five other things coming down the pipeline that could work out.

Guest [00:16:08] You.

Clark Johnsen [00:16:08] That is the energy of casting. You cast someone who walks in, they're like, I don't need this job and I don't need you to like me at all. I perform for me. Of course, no actor performs for themselves. That's part of the gig, right? You're acting even in that moment, you're pretending you don't care when really you are. You care so much that you're shaking. You want it so bad you can taste it. So a lot of actors will say, a lot of, I'm not complying with your two minute thing. I'm sorry, I'm very, very bad at that. But a lot of actors will say,

John Dehlin [00:16:38] I said one minute.

Clark Johnsen [00:16:39] Oh, you said minute.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] I'm kidding. Keep going, keep going. You're doing great. I love this. This is good.

Clark Johnsen [00:16:45] Even better. So, you know, a lot of actors will say, you know, my advice to you, don't have a backup plan. Because if you do have a backup plan, then you'll quit because it's too hard. People will say that. And I'm like, that's awful. That's an awful way to live your life, to be an artist, because you have no choice. I'm like, no, thank. This is like you're a slave to your art. But, you know, a lot of people want to have that relationship with their, with their art. They want to feel like they're a slave. I had no choice. I act because I can't do anything else. It calls to me. You know, I mean, I just, I think that's impractical. And I was, as an actor, I was nothing if not practical. I was very practical about my career. And I was like, if this doesn't work out, I will be in medical school faster than you can say, bob's your uncle. You know, I really. And so I tell that to people in theater. You know, you have to be Able to develop. You have to be developed enough as a person that you can have a conversation about something else besides acting. Because suddenly someone will go, you know, what's going on in France or what's happening in this? And you're like, I know the lyrics to Crazy for you. You don't know anything about anything. And that I think comes through. So I think be a person. People want you to be a person. You walk in an audition room, they want to feel like you can connect and they don't want to feel like they're talking to some blow up doll that's, you know, well, I'll be whatever you want me to be, you know. So I think to develop your whole life, to develop a very broad set of skills and to be able to do something else so you could take or leave this acting career, you could walk away from it. And don't base your self esteem on whether you succeed in this field. That is the biggest trap. People are like, well, if this, you're only, you know, my, you know, I have a lot of friends as performers who, the way they felt about themselves was an absolute direct reflection of their most recent audition. If they got a callback, they were worthy and they were great and they were talented. And if they got cut, they were a piece of shit and they felt horrible about themselves and they would eat a whole cake from the Cheesecake Factory that night, you know, like. So, I mean, I guess if that's the way you want to live your life, go ahead. I mean, I can't stop you. But I think that, you know, for you to say I, even if I don't succeed as an actor, if I never make it to Broadway, if I never get a film, if I never get a commercial, if I never break through into this world of success in theater, that doesn't mean I'm not worthy as a person. But it's very, I won't say it's very hard. It's impossible to be totally impervious to basing how you feel about yourself on whether you get hired or not. Because your very income depends on whether people like you and whether they want to give you a job. And so you could just have the wrong hair color and you won't get that job. And here you are tormenting yourself about that one line reading of that one little or that one little high note that you didn't think was ringy enough. You know, it didn't sound exactly right. You're thinking it's because of that. And really it's because you were 59 instead of 5 8. Or you were. You had sandy blonde hair instead of strawberry blonde hair. I mean, it really is that arbitrary. And I had a couple experiences in my time in the business of sitting on the other side of the table where I was assisting a choreographer or assisting someone. And you watch people walk in and audition, and then after the person leaves the room, like, they'll be like, oh, where was that headshot again? Oh, we lost it. Oh, well, we liked her, though. Oh, well, we can't find the headshot. She was great. Oh, well, we can't. We don't have a headshot. We can't call her, like, the weirdest crap. And I'm like, how did I ever get cast in anything? These people don't know what the heck they want, and they're so disorganized. I'm like, casting is a miracle. It's a miracle from baby Jesus, you know, like, how does this crap happen? So, you know, all of that was a really. What's interesting about being an actor, though, is that, is that it teaches you to be very present and it teaches you to be very resilient because you are facing so much rejection. You really have. You really learn what you're made of by, you know, by facing that level of rejection. Because it's a numbers game, you know, for every 20 auditions you give, you'll get a callback. And then for every, you know, 10 callbacks you get, you'll get a job. I mean, it really can be that bleak. But then you get a job, and you have that job for a year, and then you, you know, if it's a Broadway show, you can make $100,000 that year, which is sort of the minimum salary of a Broadway actor. And so, you know, for performer, that's sort of life changing money because they're. They're living hand to fist, hand to mouth. What do you say anyway? Handbag. So. So, you know, there's a lot to be gleaned from the experience of being a performer. But overall, I think that people who have something else that they love and that they're passionate about, that they can go do is a good thing. And that's my biggest piece of advice to them.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] Thank you. All right, so the first time you heard about the Book of Mormon musical.

First Encounters with the Book of Mormon Musical

Clark Johnsen [00:21:56] Okay, so I was rehearsing for another Broadway show called the Addams Family in the, in the building. It's on 42nd street, and it's where all the Broadway shows rehearse. It's called 42nd Street Studios, and it's on 42nd. It's right across from the New Amsterdam Theater. And, you know, they have four or five floors of, like, really, really nice studios, big mirrors, and all the Broadway shows rehearse there. And so we were rehearsing on the sixth floor, and on the fifth floor, there was this, like, Hush, Hush project going on. And there's. Outside of the room of the main rehearsal studio, there's like a little placard, and it says whatever the name of the show is. So, you know, Crazy for your is rehearsing in here. I've said Crazy for your three times. I'm not that obsessed with Crazy for your. Why does it keep coming to my head? So anyway, so I hear that Matt Stone and Trey Parker are doing this show and. And I'm in the elevator with someone and I'm like, what is this. What is this project going on on the fifth floor? And they're like, it's a musical about Joseph Smith. And I was like, what the f. I was like. I was like, I've always thought Moroni's appearance as a salamander was especially dramatic, but please, you know, what. What are you going to do with the musical about Joseph Smith? Like, how do you. I was. I always. To say that I was intrigued was, you know, I mean, and this was after I had already left the church and I had already made peace with my parents and everything was, you know, going well.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] 2010.

Clark Johnsen [00:23:31] Yeah, 2010. Around there. Exactly. And so. And so I, like, I'm taking the elevator up and the doors open to the fifth floor, and all these, like, people who look like Mormon missionaries, like, short haircuts and stuff, they all walk out on the fifth floor and it says Mormon Project on the little placard. That's the name of the project. And I'm like, what the f. I'm like, what is this so weird? And why am I not in it? You know, this is what every. This is what every actor goes through, right? You can't enjoy a piece of theater because you're like, I should put that song in my audition book. That would be a great comedic ditty for my next audition. Or, why didn't I get this role? You know, I always say that with Book of Mormon because there are no white female actors or characters in the Book of Mormon. I always say that the Book of Mormon is the only show that a white female actress could actually enjoy because there's no role for her. So she doesn't have to be jealous of the people up on stage. That bitch. She's so fat. I would have gotten that role of her.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] You know what? She can't be Jon Bon Jovi.

Clark Johnsen [00:24:40] Right, exactly, exactly. So, you know, that was. That was one of the predecessors. Yeah, now Bon Jovi. Exactly. That was one of the pre Broadway workshops. They were doing these very hush hush developmental workshops. No one was seeing them and no one knew about them at all. And so this wasn't the rehearsal for the Broadway production. This was just a developmental workshop that was happening. And I was in rehearsals for this other play, the Addams Family, which I did for a year. Then I had my agent called and said, now I know you were raised Mormon and they're looking for a Mormon missionary. They've lost someone from the prior developmental workshop. Oddly, the person that they were looking for a replacement for was also Mormon. So, oddly, there was a Mormon in these developmental workshops. And I didn't really get the full story of why he left, but it seemed like he was a little bit at odds with the material of the show. Maybe he didn't like the F word, I don't know, because you certainly get a lot of that with. So anyway, he dropped out and it was three weeks until the Broadway production. The original Broadway cast started rehearsals and so they needed someone immediately, basically. And so I had a little bit of a moral dilemma when I got the audition because I knew that I was at peace with the church, but I wasn't sure what the show was about. I had no idea what the show was about. And that information obviously wasn't available anywhere. And everyone who auditioned for the show, they were giving them the, you know, the sides or, you know, the little. To have them read parts of the show. They were giving them the sides and then they were like taking them back and not letting people even take them home because they didn't want people to post it online or talk about what it was about. And so it was like extremely insular and extremely private. And so I had no idea. I had no idea if the show was going to like bash the church and just be like, lay it all out there or whether it was going to be sympathetic for the church. And of course I knew that the south park writers were amazing. Matt Stone and Trey Parker were amazing writers. And I knew that they would write a great show because they, you know, because south park is an amazing show and, you know, they're, they're incredibly brilliant and. But I didn't want to do something that would damage the sort of fledgling peace that I had developed with my Parents and my family. And I didn't want this to be perceived as some sort of, you know, Mormon bash on my part and that I had taken part in something that was going to, you know, sort of knock down the, again, fledgling bridge that I was building with them, because that was very important to me. And so I talked to one of my brothers, my brother Clay, who's, you know, who loves south park and is a huge fan of south park, but is still very much active in the church. And, you know, he was like, I think you should just audition for it, because, you know, he's like, it'll be fine. He's like, I think this could be a really cool thing to be a part of. And, you know, maybe you won't even get it, you know, and I, you know, it's that. It's that thing where, you know, you. You don't want to go in and audition if you have no intention of taking it. And your agent will get really mad at you if you go in and you audition and the creative team falls in love with you and wants to cast you, and then you're like, no, I won't do it. So they want you to say no at the beginning, essentially. So, you know, after I got my brother Clay's approval, I felt like I would have enough defense if it turned out badly, then I could be like, well, Clay said it was okay. You can't get that mad at me. You know, spread out the blame a little bit. So I went in and auditioned, and at my very first audition, I, you know, I told the casting director that I was a BYU graduate, that I was a returned missionary, and that, you know, you know, that this was. You know, I didn't know what the story was about, but if they were looking for Mormon missionaries, I didn't think that you could get much more. The genuine article appears before you. So, you know, it was like, you know, very short casting process. I had one call back the next day, basically in front of the director, choreographer, and I got the job, and I gave my notice to Adam's family, and I started rehearsals the next month. And, you know, our first day of rehearsal, I was basically one of the only new people because they had done this developmental workshop months before.

Joining the Book of Mormon Cast

John Dehlin [00:29:17] So Josh Gad was already there.

Clark Johnsen [00:29:18] Josh Gad was there. Andrew Rannels were there. Matt and Trey were, you know, of course they were there. Oh, they were at all of our rehearsals. They were in the room. You know, they were. I mean, I have to say, I worked with a lot of creative teams in my experience in musical theater, and I saw a lot of writers, directors attempt to fix. Because the process of creating a show is all about fixing problems as they present themselves. For instance, on paper, this show has great flow and the way the numbers of things weave together and the transitional elements. But when you start to put something on its feet, things. You know, anyone who works in theater knows that sometimes things just don't work the way that you think they're going to or you're not able to. You know, you pictured it in your head a certain way, and on. On its feet, it doesn't look that way. And what really generally happens with most plays is that a problem arises and the creative team, in an attempt to fix the problem, they make another problem and put it in its place. I mean, that is like, literally what will happen. They'll be like, we've made drastic cuts. The second act is so much better than it was. And we cut this number. And then, you know, everyone's like, oh, fantastic. They cut that horrible number. Oh, my gosh, the second act was really, really dragging. And then they replace that draggy number with another draggy number. And it's. You're just, you know, it's this thing of watch, you know, it's very hard to create something that really sings and that just that the bones of the show are just really good and almost anybody could play the parts and it would be a success, you know, and so to watch them sort of tinker and everything they did just propped it up a little bit higher and just made it a little bit better. They are truly formidable creators and writers, and they did such an amazing job. But, you know, my first. My first day of rehearsal, they did a full run through. Not run through on its feet, but they did a, you know, sing through with music stands, and they. They sang and everybody did, you know, Andrew Randall sang I Believe and every. You know, and I was hearing this all for the first time, and I could not believe what I was hearing. I mean, when they were talking, you know, when Andrew was singing I Believe, and they're talking about God lives on a planet called Kolob, and, you know, I believe that, you know, my. Involves me getting my own planet. I was like, holy crap. It was like. It was like the most. It was a collision of worlds in a way I cannot describe because I'm sitting in these Broadway rehearsal studios hearing about Mormon doctrine that most Mormons don't even talk about that often, and being like, how the heck did they know about this stuff? I'm like, who did they talk to to get this level of detail? And, you know, I will say my one claim to fame with the Book of Mormon show is that they were. They were pronouncing Lamanites Laminites. And I was like, excuse me, but it's pronounced Lamenites. And they fixed that. So I was like, I've contributed. Good for me, you know.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Did you make any other contributions?

Clark Johnsen [00:32:36] Well, you know, you know.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Cause like, when they say praise Jesus.

Clark Johnsen [00:32:40] I know. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] No Mormon has ever said praise Jesus. What does that mean?

Clark Johnsen [00:32:44] Just here's Praise Christ. That's what they say. Yes. So, you know, this is what I'll tell you. So I simplified just now when I said that. I said. I corrected Lamanites. What I really did was I went up to one of the creative team and I said, you know, I don't want to put my oar in because, you know, too many cooks in the kitchen. It's not my place. And they weren't coming to me and saying, like, you were Mormon. Is there maybe anything you want to, you know, say or have we. Did we get it right? Maybe they just didn't want to open that bag of worms. And plus, I was new, you know, they had done all these other creative things with other people, and maybe they thought that I would attempt to do a coup, you know, mutiny. I don't know. I don't know. They didn't know me. And so, you know, I remember that Trey Parker once was like, tell me about your mission. You know, and so I kind of like shared some of the things with him, but there was never sort of a policy, an open door policy where they were like, can you let us know if anything is sort of out of the ordinary to your. You know? And in my mind, I was like, okay, I'm an expert on Mormonism. You could hire, you know, someone to come in and. But you have someone in the cast who is literally an expert on Mormon missionaries, on what they do, on what they wear, on how they talk, on what their thinking about. You know, I'm like, I lived it. So I sort of assumed that they would come. So I mentioned to someone that it's pronounced Laymanites. And the person I told was like, the assistant of the somebody. You know, I didn't want to go up and like, you know, just again, I was new and I didn't want to step on anyone's toes, and I'm very, very meddlesome, and I can be a little bit bossy, and it's gotten Me in trouble in my career a couple times. And so I was like, I'll be careful because I've learned to be a little careful. So anyway, I told this. This girl who was someone's assistant of someone, and the next. And she acted a little weird, like, oh, okay, well. Well, thank you. Thank you for letting us know. And I was like, oh, shit, this is, like, crazy. I was like, why is she being so weird? So the next day she comes to rehearsal and she was like, oh, everyone. Oh, I wanted to let you know that I called Temple Square last night, and some little. Nice. Some little old lady in the Mormon Temple, you know, I was just talking to her, and she told me she actually was talking about the Book of Mormon. And she said Lamanites and not Lamanites. And so we've been mispronouncing it. And I was like, oh, shit. I was like, well, clearly my input is not going to be welcome in the way that I would have liked it to be. And I mean, to be frank, they did. I mean, they got 99%. The other, you know, praise Christ, obviously, is like a huge, glaring thing to any Mormon. You know, like, you hear that and you're like, no, we don't. No Mormon ever says praise Christ. You know. And, you know, the other thing that, you know, that always just, you know, got me a little bit is it's something that maybe a lot of even LDS people don't notice, but, you know, they have those, like, hill cumorah pageant kind of things starting the first and second act. And there's that. The one in the second act, Jesus says, you know, I just got. You know, I just. I can't even. It's been.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Come on, you guys.

Clark Johnsen [00:36:00] Yeah, come on, guys. You know, I just got. I just got crucified. But in that time, I will preach here to you in America, you know, in the three days. And, you know, during those three days, I'm like, Jesus was doing something really weird. He didn't. That's not. When Jesus went to America, he was starting the work for the dead in heaven. That's the joke, right? But, you know, when he went to America, of course he was already resurrected because he said, come feel the marks on my hands and feet. You know. And so that was a little detail that they missed. But I doubt. I mean, a lot of Mormons may not have even noticed that. But, you know, I did the show 12, 50 times, so I noticed. So anyway, there were little things like that that I wish that I could have, you know, kind of just those tiny little things that I knew would offend certain Mormons. But again, you know, where I did contribute heavily was, you know, all of the missionaries were like, can you bring in your missionary photos? Can you bring in your missionary journal? We would love to see them. And we had, like, long conversations about what it was like to be. To be a missionary, and they looked at all my pictures and were there

John Dehlin [00:37:11] missionary experiences you had that related to the musical?

Clark Johnsen [00:37:14] Absolutely. I mean, you know, the sort of. I was in a rural area in Mexico, and the sort of, you know, the sort of level of. Kind of isolation, and you're kind of on your own out there in, you know, pueblo. Yeah, in a pueblo, kind of doing your. Doing your own thing. And you are the gospel to those people wherever you are. And whatever you say to them about the gospel is the gospel to them. You know, that's Mormonism to them. And the way that your hair looks and the way that you're dressed and. And what you're eating, that's Mormonism to them because you're all of. That's all. So Elder Cunningham's way of presenting sort of his Lord of the Rings, Star wars version of his extrapolation of what the gospel is and isn't and how he makes it relevant for the people. I mean, of course, that's a hyperbolized version of what missionaries have to do in foreign countries with perhaps people who. Their literacy is low, they can't read the Book of Mormon or the Bible for themselves, so they're kind of taking your word and kind of nodding their head and saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as I said, I was in Mexico on my mission. And so, you know, dealing with the Virgin Mary and how you handle presenting the gospel of Jesus Christ without a heavy presence of the Virgin Mary is a very, very tricky thing, because on every Mexican Catholic's wall is La Virgen de Guadalupe, you know, every single person. And so, you know, they're. They're just. They want you. They're listening to this discussion with Jesus. Yes. God, yes. Baptism. Absolutely. Yes. We're with you. We're with you. And then you end the discussion. They're like, excuse me, Mary is she. Don't. Isa Maria. You know, is she in there somewhere? And you're like, you know, and you want him. You want to get another discussion? Oh, yes, yes. We revere her as the mother of Christ, and, you know, she was the vessel of, you know, and so you're kind of like, you know, Mormons don't give A crap about Mary, really. I mean, really, they don't, you know, I mean, she's there and you appreciate the, you know, the painting, the Annunciation, and there's a couple, like, you know. But in any appreciable sense, she's not important to Mormons, so, you know, so, you know, that's sort of a miniature version of what Elder Cunningham does, is sort of like, make it palatable, relevant to the people that are in front of you in an attempt to convert them, help them out, whatever. Whatever the motive may be, you know.

John Dehlin [00:40:05] Excellent. So, Josh Gad, for just a second.

Clark Johnsen [00:40:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] I was there on opening weekend. I think it was February of 2011.

Guest [00:40:14] Is that right?

Clark Johnsen [00:40:14] Yep, that's exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] And I couldn't tell if he was talented, like when he seemed to sing a little bit off key to me.

Clark Johnsen [00:40:23] Right. And he.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] And he didn't bring the Broadway voice, and he was obviously trying to play a nerd, but I was confused by that. Like, oh, they couldn't get someone great for that part, so they got him at first. But obviously he was hilarious.

Guest [00:40:35] Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:36] Can you talk about that a little bit?

Clark Johnsen [00:40:37] Absolutely. Well, you know, I think that the.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] Am I the only one to have had that experience?

Clark Johnsen [00:40:42] No, I think that. I think a lot of people who are expecting sort of a more traditional, polished Broadway experience could have felt very confused by the casting of him because he doesn't have that typical Broadway voice and he doesn't seem like a Broadway actor. Right. I mean, but I think. I think what Matt and Trey brilliantly did was they basically gave you, as an audience member, this sort of meta experience of being like, he just doesn't fit in. He's wrong for this whole thing, you know, which is exactly what he is in the play. You know, he's the wrong person. He's got the wrong voice, he's got the wrong hair, he's the wrong size, he has the wrong knowledge. He's not up to par, you know, all of those things that you experienced as an audience member, I think, in the mind of the creators is exactly what they want you to feel like. I just don't like him. He makes me uncomfortable. I wish I was watching someone else, you know? And the brilliance of Josh Gad, I think, is that, first of all, both on stage and in life, he is an indomitable comic. He is funny. Every minute of every interaction you have with him, he doesn't turn it on or off. Like, who he is on stage is pretty much who he is in real life. He wants to make Everybody laugh and he does, and he's hilarious. And if he's in a group of people, they are watching him always, period. And he earns it. He's hilarious. And he's constantly developing his ability to assess the comic opportunities of the moment, you know. And so, you know, I think when you're, when you're watching, I mean, I don't know if this was your experience, but I think what they hoped and what Josh is going for too is because he's actually kind of a vocal master. He actually has a very, very good voice, but he has the ability to make his voice seem kind of off putting in a way that I think was really right for the character. And what I think they hope for by the end is that you're rooting for him. That in the end, at the beginning of the play, you're like, I just don't like you and I wish I was watching someone else. And you look at Andrew and you're like, yes, you're everything I want to see on stage. You're handsome, you're tall, you have a great voice, you have a commanding presence. You're likable, you know. And so I think that they wanted you to go on a journey that was similar to the journey that Elder Price is having, which is coming to a appreciate him and coming to appreciate what he brings to the table, even though it's not what Elder Price sort of is trained to think of as positive attributes. The other thing that's interesting is that they really did a lot of development on Elder Price's character because there were in several of the workshops, the developmental workshops, of course, I wasn't there, so I got this as second hand information from the cast. But they actually went through this period where Elder Price in his disillusionment, his faith disillusionment, which really centers around his sort of failure to get what he deserves. You know, he's been preparing for his mission his whole life. He's done everything. He's got the hair, you know, he's got the Mormon haircut. He's got the, you know, he's got the zest for the gospel. He knows his Mormonism backward and forward and he goes there and falls flat on his face. And his failure as a missionary causes him to doubt the entire paradigm of Mormonism. Because if he isn't the winner, then the church must be wrong because he should be the winner. He did everything he was supposed to do. So the fact that he falls flat on his face and the fact that he fails is sort of evidence to him that the universe doesn't work the way we were told, you know? And so for, you know, they really struggled with trying to decide how they wanted him to react to his faith crisis. And one of the ideas they toyed with is having him assassinate the mission president. So that actually was something they played with. And they had this like. I don't know if you're familiar with Sweeney Todd, but there's this. It's the end of the first act of Sweeney Todd, and he addresses the audience, and, you know, he's sort of accepted the fact that his bitterness and his revenge have caused him to begin murdering people to satisfy his revenge. And so at the first. The end of the first act of Sweeney Todd, he's like, he's just killed someone else. And he's like, you, sir. People in the audience, how about a shave? Sweeney's waiting. You know, this big moment of like, you want to die next? I'll kill you. You know? And so they had a song. Elder Price's, like, big song in the second act was like, what do all religions have in common? They lie. It's all lies. You know, whether it's this or that or that. And then it was like this. Sweeney Todd. You know, instead of, like, offering to murder people in the audience, it was like murdering the beliefs of everyone in the audience by being like, this is the thing that all religions have in common. They're all liars, and I'm gonna murder the mission president. And I think they decided that would make him not likable.

Analyzing the Musical's Songs and Themes

John Dehlin [00:46:19] It's interesting you bring up Sweeney Todd, because one of the things I started to feel like during the musical was that they were actually doing parodies of other songs in other musicals. For example, mostly me reminded me of Defying gravity. Absolutely right?

Clark Johnsen [00:46:34] 100%.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] So were there. Can you name songs that were.

Clark Johnsen [00:46:37] I mean, you know, it's probably put

John Dehlin [00:46:39] you on the spot.

Clark Johnsen [00:46:40] No, no, it's. It's. It's just. It's funny because there are. You know, there's this section of Elder Price in the second act where he's basically singing Tomorrow from Annie. And there are just. You know, there are tons of references, and only someone who is a true theater queen would get all of those references. I got all of them. So anyway, I mean, that was obviously a very intentional thing, but what I think is so successful, because you have a show like the Producers, which is, like, all references. I mean, it's references, references, references, references. And drawing upon, you know, sort of, like, things in pop culture that People understand and presenting them in clever ways. And so, you know, Matt and Trey did a lot of that. And, you know, in a lot of ways is this little love letter to, you know, to golden era Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, some contemporary stuff like Wicked. But what is interesting is that that wasn't the crux, that wasn't the point of the show. I mean, the show becomes such a sort of unexpected, fascinating commentary on the value of faith and the. What. What is valuable about faith is not whether it's true or false, but what it does for the people that believe, how it affects the community of believers. So what I love about the show and what I think is so amazing about the show is that you have Mormonism being presented in a way where it's stripped down to the bones of it. You know, you're hearing all the weirdest stuff about Mormonism in a two hour period, essentially, you know, and the audience is laughing at it, going, I can't believe that anyone believes this stuff. The smart people in the audience are going, I can't believe anyone believed this stuff. Wait a minute, I believe the virgin birth. I believe in. I believe. Oh, I believe in weird stuff too. That's what the smart people in the audience who have faith are doing. They're going, wait a minute. You could take any religion and if you did what they're doing to this, you would laugh. Everyone would laugh at that too. And then at the end of it, instead of lifting it up as a laughingstock, they. They show that they create this hyperbolized version of, of the gospel as set forth by Elder Cunningham. And the people in the village all join this weird religion where, you know, Joseph Smith fucked a frog and that cured him of his aids. And, you know, like all of this weird stuff that the show sort of, you know, and the village believes it and they join this, you know, it's very. This hyperbole of ridiculousness. Whereas religion itself is, you know, a collection of ridiculous, non unbelievable stories that people revere and hold as truths. You know, Moses parting the Red Sea, all this stuff that just, you know, virgin birth. The virgin birth, all this stuff that like, didn't happen from a scientific point of view is impossible, right? And so they, they hyperbolize this. They tell this story that's so ridiculous that you're like, how would anyone. Those Africans must be really stupid to believe this. And then at the end of it, it turns out that the Africans never believed in it and that they understood all along that it was just a metaphor for how they should you know, one of them, you know, of course the Nabulungi character believes all of it. She believes all of it's true. And she, for her, Salt Lake City represent, you know, Saltaleka City represents this salvation. And then at the end, the whole village is like Nabulungi. Saltaleka City isn't an actual place. It's an idea, a metaphor, you know. And so, you know, what ends up happening, though, is that this ridiculous belief system that isn't true and that actually they all know isn't true has brought them together, has united them. And so, you know, this is sort of my, you know, the thing that I wish that Mormons could do is say, instead of saying, the reason I follow Mor, the reason I do what I do, the reason I am a Mormon is because it's true. And it's not just true for me, it's true for everybody. And for the person who says, oh, well, how do you justify the fact that I'm not Mormon and I'm very happy? Well, every Mormon will say, whether out loud or in their head, will say, well, you think you're happy, but you could be so much happier, you don't even know. So, you know, it's that, you know, it's that. That is where I feel that the faith system of Mormonism has let its constituency down because it teaches them that the value of their faith is in its utter, unshakable, eternal, universal veracity. It's true. And if it's not true, then it all falls apart and disintegrates. It's true. And that's what makes it valuable. And what would be great is if they could say, well, we don't know if it's true. And we certainly can't say that it's a one size fits all religion. It doesn't necessarily work for everybody. But we love our faith and we believe in our faith and our belief is powerful and it unites us in an ability to be good and it makes us better people and we treat the people of our families better because we're Mormons. But if you don't want to be Mormon, that's okay. You don't have to believe what we believe. That's fine. And when you say you're happy not being a Mormon, I believe that. Why not? What do I know? I'm happy being a Mormon. You don't have to be Mormon to be happy. So what that would do, what that would allow is that would allow people like me, a young gay man growing up in the church to feel like, you know, this isn't working for me. I don't feel good. I don't like the way I feel about myself. I hate feeling broken. I am sick of feeling like a loser that can never dig myself out of this, like, loser hole. And of course I want to die. I can't succeed in this paradigm. There's no winning situation for me. And I don't know about you, but I don't like to lose. I don't want to be a loser for the rest of my life. You know, I want to feel like if I work hard at something, I can win and I can do a good job. And that doesn't mean win by beating other people. It just means I want to succeed and I should have the opportunity to have a full, happy life. And as a Mormon, I wasn't. That's not an option for me. And so, you know, if Mormons could say, yeah, we believe in this and it unites us, but it may not be true for everybody, that's okay. The value of our faith isn't in its truth. The value in our faith is what it does for us as a group. It unites us. It makes us good. We're better people because we're Mormon and not. We're better people because we have the truth and you don't have the truth, and that makes you worse than us. And we may not tell you that to your face, but we feel that way about you. You're worse off than me. You know, and I. I remember being a Mormon in my head, and I remember the way that I felt about people who weren't Mormon. And if they were like, I'm happy, I suffered good. I'm like, oh, they are. Are so delusional. They are not happy. They have no concept of what happiness is. Meanwhile, I'm getting up in airplanes wanting it to crash. You do the math. I'm so happy, I want to die. Isn't that. I mean, come on. So bizarre challenge with that is that

John Dehlin [00:54:35] you take away the unique, distinctive, absolutist truth claims, people maybe just want to be vibrant about their beliefs.

Clark Johnsen [00:54:44] I think that's right.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] That's the secret sauce that actually makes us successful.

Clark Johnsen [00:54:47] I think you're right. And I think that's the fear that without that, without that compulsion of truth backing it up, people wouldn't follow it. And I think that's wrong. I do. I think that's wrong. I think that what that tells me is that the people in charge of administering the faith don't have Enough faith in the faith. Because, you know, people still become Boy Scouts. And it's not because Boy Scouts is true. You know, they do it because they say this trains young men to spend time outdoors learning how to basket weave, which was a great merit badge for me, by the way. Very good baskets.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] So I'm gonna take you through some of the songs of the musical.

Clark Johnsen [00:55:40] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] And I want to. If you want to talk about a funny experience with the song, an insight from the song.

Clark Johnsen [00:55:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] Talk about the theme of the song. Okay, I'm interested.

Clark Johnsen [00:55:50] Okay. So hello, you know, or something about the performance.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Whatever comes to mind.

Clark Johnsen [00:55:57] You know, you would have been in

John Dehlin [00:55:58] that hello number, right?

Clark Johnsen [00:55:59] Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, you were.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] Which characters in the musical?

Clark Johnsen [00:56:04] So I. I play Elder Brown at the beginning at the airport or whatever. So when they're all getting their mission calls, you know, so, you know, me

John Dehlin [00:56:15] and you got sent to what mission?

Clark Johnsen [00:56:16] So me and my last. Me and my companion. His name is Scott. Scott Barnhart. His name is Elder. Elder Thomas later. But I'm blanking on his name at the beginning. But anyway, we. We're the ones who. It fades into. Heavenly Father, where will I go on my mission? So we never hear where we got to go on our mission. So we got to make up where we went every night. So if you listen to the soundtrack, you know, here it's, you know, Elder, I can't remember his name. Elder Brown and Elder, you know, and then you don't hear where we get our mission call. So we're, you know, we're. We're the victim of a fade, a fade out there. So anyway. But, you know, I'm always struck by the way that hello captures the sort of indomitable optimism of the missionary spirit. I mean, it's. It is true. I remember, you know, as a missionary, you know, I just reveled in getting the door slammed in my face. I'm not kidding. Like, I had this little game I would play when people would start closing the door. I would try to say the most as many words as I could and as absurd and strange as I could, because the idea of someone slamming the door being like watermelons in the basement, sewer rat sauce, and having them be like, what did they just say? You know, and maybe opening the door again and going, what? And being like, I knew you'd open the door again. Of course, it never worked. Probably too. Too weird, which is a running theme in my life. Too weird. But, you know, that sort of like, I'm gonna win you over. I'm gonna win you over with all the charm and all of the, like, optimism. And you are gonna be. You are gonna see. See that I'm doing this without coffee. And you are going to be curious about how I'm doing that. I remember, like, in high school, even before my mission, you know, I sat next to this girl in my English class, and about, you know, halfway through the year, she was like, do you take vitamins? What are you. She's like, I don't get it. She's like, you're so energetic every single day. And it's just funny because I do feel like the, you know, I mean, there's obviously some inherent personality trait going on here, but I feel like Mormonism really encourages that level of, like, drive and that level of sort of interacting with people in a way where you give them all of your attention, all of your focus in this moment, and you make them feel awesome about themselves. And you are a walking, talking advertisement for Mormonism, because everybody wants to know how in the heck. What is it that made you feel this way and believe this way, you know, and of course, you know, when I was leaving the church, I was like, well, I'm just going to lose all of this ability to, you know, to talk to people and, you know, have this. Have this personality where I can win people over and things like that. And strangely, I didn't lose that. So it clearly had nothing to do with, you know, less to do with Mormonism and more to do with just, you know, the way I was, the way I like to interact with people, you know. But I really liked hello as an opening number. I think it sets up the show so incredibly well and sets up the, like, Mormon thing in a way that I can't believe they got. I mean, they got it. That number is just right. It sets you right into the world. And it's funny, but it's also really engaging, and it really gets people kind of revved up for what the show is going to be about.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] So two by two or something incredible. There are just two lines that really, really struck me. I think Elder Price says them. He says, I want to be the Mormon that changes all mankind. And then he says, I'll do something incredible that blows God's freaking mind.

Clark Johnsen [01:00:08] Yeah.

Guest [01:00:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] Talk about the. I mean, that is how a missionary feels, right?

Clark Johnsen [01:00:15] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:00:16] Go ahead.

Clark Johnsen [01:00:17] I mean, no, it's like this nugget of truth that I think very few missionaries would admit. But, you know, you have this fantasy that you're going to go out and you are going to baptize thousands. You know, you're going to be, you know, like, Alma 32, and bring all these people to the waters, baptism, and baptize a whole village of people. And they'll clap their hands with joy and excitement because you. You were that awesome. And God is gonna be like, whoa, I made that. I'm awesome too, you know, like, So.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] But I really felt that way on my mission. I really did.

Clark Johnsen [01:01:01] Are you kidding? I mean, I absolutely, you know, and I. You know, when I got my first baptism, I was like, this is my destiny. I am changing lives. I'm saving souls. I mean, that appetite for. You know, And I was so. Oh, my gosh. I remember one of my very first missionary interactions was with this guy who had had the discussions before I got to the area. And he. We went to his house, and he was. He hid from us, which is something people did in Mexico a lot. Like, there was one time when we knocked on this other lady's door, and her door was open. As often they'll leave their doors open to get a little cross breeze because a lot of them don't have air conditioning in their homes. And literally, I could see her table was in view, and she was hiding under her table, and I could see her foot. And we were, like, knocking, and she wasn't coming out. And I was like, senora, I see your foot. I can see you, you know, just being so menacing and being like, why don't you come talk to us? What's your problem? You know? But anyway, I just like that. Like, I have the truth, and I will conquer with this truth. And I remember this guy was like, I just can't. He was hiding from us. And then he finally came out, and he was like, I just can't. I can't anymore. The Virgin Mary just means too much to me, and I just can't. And I was like, you can't or you won't?

Guest [01:02:30] You won't.

Clark Johnsen [01:02:31] That's what it is. Really. And, I mean, I just. It's like my first day in the mission field, and I just chewed this guy out. I mean, like, what a horrible thing to do. And my companion was like, elder, maybe you want to work on your bedside manner a little bit and just be a little nicer to the investigators. And I was like, why? We have the truth.

Guest [01:02:47] Rah.

Clark Johnsen [01:02:47] You know, so it's that, like, I'm gonna blow God's mind, you know, I'm insane. I mean, it was.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] Anyway, yeah, so hasidiga iboy. I mean, probably one of the most controversial and powerful numbers in the history of Broadway, right?

Clark Johnsen [01:03:05] I think so. I mean, we had. We had. We were very. They were very afraid when the show opened that we were going to have security problems and death threats. And so they had this whole security.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] How many times is the F word mentioned in that song?

Clark Johnsen [01:03:20] Oh, my gosh, 45 or. I really couldn't. I have not counted. But it's absolutely like. I mean, dozens and dozens of times. And, you know, I mean. I mean, Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] What's brilliant about that song is they said it in the context of death and disease and aids, and you're like, yeah, they're mad at God.

Clark Johnsen [01:03:43] How could you not be?

John Dehlin [01:03:44] So you. The song wasn't offensive to me, even

Clark Johnsen [01:03:47] though I usually don't use that word. Well, you've lost your wife, you've lost your flocks, you've lost your curse to God and die. You know, who says that to Job? Somebody, Right? I mean, it's that thing of, like, of course you're angry with God. And by the end, you know, they want the audience to be saying the same thing, like, well, they. They probably should be mad at God. If God's forsaken anyone. It's these people who have no access to. You know, they live in such an arid place, they can't even plant, crop. You know, I mean, it's just like. It's just everything that could be going wrong in their lives is. And they're. They're sick and they can't get any medical, you know, all this stuff. So if they're not mad at God, whoever God is to them, then they probably should be if they have any sense, you know. And so by the end of the number, they want you to go from shock, like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they're saying this to. Well, they're not wrong.

Guest [01:04:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] So you're saying they're worried about security.

Clark Johnsen [01:04:41] They were really worried about security. They had all these security briefings, and I think that they thought that maybe there would be, you know, death threats, bomb threats. Because this number, they were really worried that it was going to be. It was going to be something that really angered people. And, you know, I think they were really concerned also about the Mormon Church responding in a really, really negative way. And I think the church was, you know, I don't know what went into making the decisions about how the church PR machine handled the Book of Mormon, but the church released one statement about the show, and that was, though the Book of Mormon musical may attempt to Entertain audiences for an evening. The Book of Mormon, as a volume of holy scripture, will change lives forever by bringing souls unto Christ. That is all they said about the show. They weren't mad. There were no protests. There was nothing. It was like. It was like we were saying these ridiculous things on a Broadway stage, and no one. There was no. There was never a security problem. We literally had, like, three people in the course of the whole three and a half years that I did the show walk out during that number. Most people just either knew what it was coming in, but, you know, for the people like yourself who came on that opening weekend, you couldn't have known what the show was. No one knew what it was about. You were one of the first audience experiences of the show. And so, you know, we were expecting people to be outraged and leave. And people just. For some reason, they walked this tightrope of, like, too offensive, too vulgar, too much, pushing it too far and saying something very poignant about people who are in distress. And they walked that line, and they hit it right on the money. They pushed people just far enough without pushing them too far. Now you've crossed the line. I'm going to leave, you know, and in an interview, Matt Stone, I think, talks about how, you know, he was like, well, we were hoping more people would storm out during that number. And he was like, you know, one day I did see a woman throw down her program and walk out. And he was like, well, thank goodness somebody's outraged. You know, everybody else was just sitting there. So, you know, so, you know, I think that number was. This is, you know, a very, very interesting way for them to introduce the. The conflict of the. The people.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] So did you sing a line and turn it off?

Clark Johnsen [01:07:07] Yes, I. What was your line?

John Dehlin [01:07:08] Sing a force if you want.

Clark Johnsen [01:07:09] Oh, I sing the. I. You know, it's right after the elder McKinley's, you know, kind of big preamble. And I'm the first missionary. My name is Elder Michaels in that. In that scene. And I just, you know, I just walk up and say, turn it off. Like lights. Which, you know, I'm just one of the first people to kind of sing. And so you can hear me on the cast album found on itunes. And so, you know, that was. That was just. It was just so such an awesome experience to get to do a, you know, do a original cast album of something that was so. So incredibly personal. And, you know, and that number is just so crazy accurate about how, you know, the one thing that I think Mormons do slightly is a Mormon wouldn't say, like, oh, I just turn off my feelings. But, you know, the concept of, like, I'm having improper thoughts. So instead I'll hum my favorite hymn, or I'm going to start thinking about something else, something appropriate, you know, I don't think a Mormon would say, I'm going to turn it off. But it's exactly what we do, you know. But instead we would say, like, I just think about something righteous instead of something unrighteous, which is basically the same thing. So

John Dehlin [01:08:27] All American Prophet sort of mocking Joseph Smith a little bit. What did you think about that?

Clark Johnsen [01:08:32] I mean, I think it's a great way for them to set up how the. I think it's a great way for them to set up the way that they're presenting the Mormon story in an irreverent way. But that gets the information across, because you need that. You need that setup for any of the stuff in Act 2 to sort of make sense where Elder Cunningham makes up his own version of the events. So, you know, you've got what Elder Price told them about Joseph Smith, and you've got all this stuff, and then you've got Elder Cunningham's version, and then you get in the second act, you get that pageant that they present for the mission president with all the pride. You know, we're presenting this beautiful story, and it's like these two stories woven together. And so, you know, my brother Clay, who's sort of encourage me to go ahead and audition, he actually was there that same weekend that you were there. He saw one of the first previews of the show, and he was really struck by that number because he was like, people were laughing so hard at the story, and he was like, why is this so funny? Should I be offended that they're laughing at this? And he was like. Because I'm not sure if I'm the at offended or not, you know, which. I love that. Like, I'm not sure if I'm offended. Should I be offended? You know, So, I mean, I think when you're. You take offense to something, you should probably know that, you know, so anyway, so I think that, you know, they set up that, you know that very well. And, you know, I got to play Brigham Young in that scene, which I thought was particularly apropos. Plus, I think I look fabulous. Little curls, you know, sometimes these little. Those Brigham Young curls. So I had to do a pirouette at the end of that number, and sometimes the curls would fall out, and I would start the number looking like Brigham Young. And I would end the number looking a little like Doris Day in Glass Bottom Boat, just a little bit of a flip.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] That was okay with you?

Clark Johnsen [01:10:26] Well, I mean, of course, you know, anyone who can turn from Brigham Young into Doris Day is okay by me.

John Dehlin [01:10:35] So Salt Lake is City, which was just a beautiful number.

Clark Johnsen [01:10:39] I love that. I love that. It's absolutely one of my favorite songs they wrote. It's one of my favorite moments in the play. I think it really captures the spirit of a convert. I think it captures what it's like to be someone hearing a message. And it's sort of what you said about that little extra, that truth, this is true. Did you ever wonder who you are? Did you ever wonder what your purpose on earth is? Well, I can tell you. I can tell you who you were before you came to Earth. I can tell you where you're going. I can tell you what's going to happen to you. And I can tell you how to get to the best, most beautiful place in the. I can tell you how to get to paradise. I can teach you, if you follow. So, you know, that spirit of, like, someone who is just so vulnerable to, you know, their life is not good. And, you know, the people who I found to be the most receptive to the gospel as a missionary and even beyond my mission were people who were vulnerable and unhappy in their life. They were looking for something. And, you know, those are the people who really, really latch onto the message of Mormonism. They want something to believe in and they want it to be true. So I love. I love her, the sincerity of her character, being like, oh, my gosh, paradise does exist, and now it has a name. You know, it has a name, and it's Saltaleka City. You know, it's this beautiful place. I mean, how incredible is that? This idea that, you know, Zion and paradise, even this sort of, you know, paradise for Mormons, you know, this place where we were able to practice our religion freely and get away from the, you know, the oppression of the United States. Is this, like, you know, place of paradise for her? I just love it. I think it's so brilliant.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] And Mormonism really does mean that to so many people.

Clark Johnsen [01:12:28] It absolutely does. Absolutely. It's a lifeline. You know, I even feel like, you know, so much of my. So much of my mom's faith paradigm and her connection with Mormonism was it's a lifeline to a sort of, you know, a happier life. You know, my mom grew up with an alcoholic father who was sort of supposed to be Mormon. But, you know, was just an alcoholic and not a good father and provide, you know, scared her. And I think for her, Mormonism was a safe place, a safe haven where she could, if she followed the rules, she could be safe and happy. And so I think you're absolutely right. For so many people, it's, it's this paradise. It's like if I do what I'm told, I can have everything, I can have all that the Father hath.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] You know, that's one of the awful paradoxes of trying to talk about the things that are wrong with the church because you inevitably mess with and sometimes soil people's beautiful image of the church.

Clark Johnsen [01:13:35] I know, I know. And that feels like a violent act, you know, crushing the glass menagerie, you know, taking someone's beautiful, something that's so beautiful and sacred to someone and shitting on it, you know, saying it's false, saying it's wrong. And that's, you know, it is, it's like taking a bat to, you know, someone's beautiful china that they've kept for generations. And this was my grandmother's, this is my grandmother's beautiful vase. And you're crushing it. I mean, you're absolutely right. It's such a double edge sword. And I think that that is also what's so hard about leaving the church. Because you want to be honest about that you feel that it's harmful to some people and that you feel that it's been damaging to you. And you want to make it very clear that you needed to get out. And you want to make it clear that you don't believe in it anymore. And you've had it up to here with pretending. And so, you know, you're a bull in a china shop, just crushing everything around you. And you're crushing grandma's beautiful vase

John Dehlin [01:14:41] that

Clark Johnsen [01:14:41] been treasured for centuries. This belief system, it's so precious. And so on my way out of the church, I've just tried really, really hard to be very, very careful with the china. You know, I don't want to knock anything down. I don't want to break anything that matters to the people that I love. It matters to me that they have the things that are precious to them, around them in life. I don't want them to think that I'm violent or destructive. And so I try to leave things standing if I can, and I try to keep things that would break down things for others to myself. And, you know, in Mormonism, what you learn is that an essential tenet of your faith is Missionary work. Right. You believe in it, but that's not enough. You need to take it to other people. Because I've tasted this fruit and it's delicious. And delicious. Above all, that's delicious. And now my first desire is to share it with my family. Right. Well, you leave the church and that doesn't go away. Right. You still have to be your part, essential part of your now new faith, which is the anti Mormonism or being believing in something else is you still want to share it with others. You're still a missionary. You've still been trained to believe that an essential aspect of your faith is missionary work. So now you're a missionary for getting people out of the church. And then you get, you know, then you become part of this zeitgeist of like, oh, well, everybody who leaves the church just tries to take everybody with them and they just, they can't leave the church alone. They're just obsessed with the church. After they leave, they just, all they do is talk about the church. They try to get people to come with them. And I'm like, well, you know where they learned that?

John Dehlin [01:16:18] So you talk about, you talk about not wanting to break grandma's beautiful china. Yes. And the tenderness you feel towards the beauty and the meaning that the church has towards other people. Yet the Book of Mormon musical could probably be held up in the history of Mormonism as one of the things that people would say does that the most. How have you reconciled that?

Clark Johnsen [01:16:42] Well, so, you know, I, the way I view the show and my take on the show is that if you look at, if you look at it and you, and you don't pay attention to what it's actually saying and you're in a victim stance and you're in a persecution stance and many Mormons are in a, like, everyone's out to get us, everyone makes fun of us, everyone thinks we're weird. You know, if you're looking for that, then you're going to see that in the show. But if you're the kind of Mormon who is like, this is my faith, I believe in it. I believe that it ennobles me. I believe that I'm a better person because I'm a Mormon. If you're that person and you're not thinking that everyone's out to make fun of you because you're Mormon, if the stance that you're in is a stance of love and not a stance of persecution with the world, then I think you see the show as faith affirming. Because I think you say oh, look what they're saying about faith. They're saying that faith brought people together. They're saying that faith matters, and they're saying that it doesn't even matter that something's true. They're not even saying that Mormonism is false. They're saying Mormonism is weird. But it is. Mormonism's weird. Catholicism is weird. Islam is weird. Judaism is weird. Everything's weird. All religions are weird. You know, anybody, any story you tell is a weird story. So to me, they're not saying, look how weird Mormonism is. Let's all laugh at it. They're saying, yeah, Mormonism is weird. All religions are weird. But look what it did when people believed in it. It made them better. It made them better. So to me, if you're looking for an affirmation of faith, then you see that in the show. I personally do not need a faith paradigm. I don't want a faith paradigm anymore. I don't want to attach myself to any belief system. But I'm also not atheist. I feel firmly agnostic in that I don't know and I don't need to know. And I find great value in not knowing because then life can be a mystery to me, and I can experience life with an open heart, and I can look at people's faith paradigm and not go, oh, you are so wrong. You don't even know how wrong you are. Which was totally the way I was as a Mormon. I mean, I tried to temper that as much as possible because I still wanted people to like me, but, you know, but that's the way I felt. And now I can walk through the world and be like, you believe in Zoroasterism. Great. Good for you. Like, I'm. I think that's awesome. Tell me about it. You know, I can walk through life and be happy for people's faith and not judge it. So I think. I think for a Mormon who feels like their faith is getting knocked down, I think that they're looking for their faith to be knocked down, to be honest, I do. I think they're looking for antagonism, and I think they're looking for someone to attack them. And maybe that brings value to their religious paradigm. To feel that it's under attack must mean that someone wants it. It's valuable. It needs to be under attack. Someone needs to be trying to plunder it for it to be worthwhile. That's not the way I view faith, and that's not the way I view Mormonism. And the people in my life don't view Mormonism through that lens. And so I think that, you know, I think that people who have faith in their. They'll see it as a good thing. I think they'll see it as faith affirming. I know that. That's the way I view it.

John Dehlin [01:19:58] Do you think Matt and Trey had that intent?

Clark Johnsen [01:20:00] 1,000%.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] I mean, because they're viewed as, like, anti religious.

Clark Johnsen [01:20:06] They're not. They're not. They're not anti religion. They really wanted. They wanted people to think that they were gonna write an anti religion thing. But even that south park episode, that's dum dum dum dum dum about the Mormons. It's called, you know, they. Even at the end, you know, they have that little kid be like, okay, you know what? I know my religion's weird, but you know what? I have a great family. I love my family. They love me. You know, and then they say, I don't care. I don't care that it's weird.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] And then they say, suck my balls.

Clark Johnsen [01:20:34] Yeah, suck my balls. Exactly. You know,

John Dehlin [01:20:44] But they do. But you. You think they're not anti religious?

Clark Johnsen [01:20:47] That's exactly the. It's the same message of Book of Mormon. Like, you know what? I know my religion's weird, but you know what? I have a great family. We love each other. That's what matters, you know, and, yeah, you can suck my balls, you know, like, so I think that if you can look at Book of Mormon in that way and you look at that and you look at that episode, that's exactly how they feel about religion. I think they're anti bullshit. I think they're anti people getting pushed around, and I think they're anti using religion to be violent, and I think they're anti using a religion as a way to control people's minds. Absolutely. They're anti those aspects that have been tied with religion, but they're certainly not anti faith, and they're certainly not anti family, and they're certainly not anti cohesion, togetherness. And religion does provide that for a lot of people, unfortunately. It also does a lot of those other things that I just mentioned, and they're certainly anti that.

Performing Eight Shows a Week on Broadway

John Dehlin [01:21:43] Any other. Any other favorite parts or meaningful parts of the musical before we talk about your life after the musical?

Clark Johnsen [01:21:50] Oh, okay. So, you know, I think that, you know, that ending that I sort of alluded to, where it turns out that the Africans knew that it wasn't true all along, because here you are thinking, oh, my gosh, those stupid Africans. How can they believe this? Insane story where it comes to light that they're actually. They actually understood that this whole religion was just a metaphor, but they still believe in it, they still love it. To me, that's, that's just such a brilliant, brilliant moment in the show where you, you really realize what the show is about. And if you've been too offended by the language and you, if you've been too offended by the story of the Book of Mormon at that point to be open to what is happening in real time on stage, you'll miss that. You'll miss what the show is really about, because you're stuck being offended and you're stuck being furious that what you hold sacred is being held up and ridiculed. It's not, it's not being held up and being ridiculed. It's being used as a template to describe all religions and that all religions have stories that are unbelievable and hilarious if taken at their sort of most root value. So I just, you know, for me to get to be part of the show and for me to get to be part of, you know, in my Mormon journey, in my journey out of the church, to then be able to be part of something that in my mind comments so lovingly on Mormonism and on faith and is so accurate in capturing the Mormon spirit. This is incredibly, incredibly meaningful and incredibly fun and incredibly fulfilling, you know, to get to. To get to really be part of something that encapsulates Mormonism in this way and is such a big part of now what Mormon culture is. Even for Mormons who are constantly having to talk about Book of Mormon the musical and what they thought of it, and, you know, them having to decide how they're going to answer that question when they probably haven't seen it to begin with, I think is, you know, just so cool, so cool to get to be part of that.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] I actually felt like it was a great honor to Mormonism.

Clark Johnsen [01:23:54] I agree. That's exactly how I feel.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] Yeah. Okay. A couple just quick questions about being in a musical and then we'll. How do you, how do you get up for doing the same performance five, six, seven times a week for like three and a half years?

Clark Johnsen [01:24:08] So first of all, it's eight times a week.

John Dehlin [01:24:10] Okay.

Guest [01:24:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:11] How do you, how do you not want to kill yourself? Like the thousandth time? And you did it how many?

Clark Johnsen [01:24:17] Twelve hundred fifty?

John Dehlin [01:24:18] Yeah, the hundredth time. The 50th, you know.

Clark Johnsen [01:24:21] Yeah. I mean, I have to say, most Broadway actors who are in long running shows are really sick of it. They're really. But they do as good of a job as they can of pretending that they're, you know, they're in theater, there's something called the illusion of the first time. So you've done it a thousand times, but you need to look like you're doing it for the first time. That's your job, you know, and so, you know, coffee is a very big part of the Broadway people, you know, and for, you know, for most people, the longer they're in the show, the more shots of espresso tend to end up in their latte to, you know, kind of continue getting that energy up. But, you know, I think that, you know, especially when you're doing a show like that, it's such a good show and people love it so much and appreciate it so much that even if you're feeling a little grouchy on, you know, on a Sunday afternoon after a long weekend and you've done, you know, and, you know, Broadway actors only have one day off a week. And so you don't get. You don't get a lot of time out of the theater. You kind of. When you're in a show, you kind of live it. You're living there, and the theater is your family and your home. And so, you know, I think, you know, it's easier when you have a great show. When you have a crappy show that you're doing, then you just have to be professional and do your damn job and. And do a good job of putting on a show for people and try to appreciate that you wanted this very badly before you got it, and you had a great opportunity here that most people are sleeping with very, very ugly people to get. They're, you know, putting up with. They're putting up with a lot of effort in auditions and things like that. And so, you know, I think you try to remember that and just. And do a good job and give the audience their money's worth, because people are paying a lot of money to see that show.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] But it can be enjoyable the 500th time.

Clark Johnsen [01:26:12] Absolutely there. I mean, especially with that cast, because people were so fun, you know, so to get. To get to do that and be on stage. And of course, every show is slightly different. You know, any actor will tell you that every. Every show has its own little anomalies. And sometimes really, really, you have a great, great time. I mean, even on my thousand, you know, and then around my third two and a half year mark, one of my friends from BYU who was in the musical theater program with me One of my very, very close friends, he had been on the national tour of Book of Mormon for a year, and he joined the Broadway company. And so that was so amazing because we went to BYU together, and we were together in all of our beginning musical theater classes and we took dance classes together. And he's one of my closest friends and associate. His name's Jacob. So he came into the show and he was there for my whole last year, and he really gave me fresh legs to do the show and enjoy being on stage and experience a lot of gratitude again because it very quickly becomes difficult to continue to be grateful for it. It's just such a weird thing, you know what they say about an actor. The best way to get an actor to complain is to give them a job. And it really is true. Like, you know, you want a job so desperately, and then you get one, and then nothing's right about the job. And, oh, the director, he's such an asshole. And, oh, my gosh, all this that, you know, and oh, my shoes, they're so uncomfortable. You never believe how uncomfortable these shoes are. You know, it's just like. It's so funny. It's very hard to remain in a state of gratitude, I think. And I don't know exactly why that is, but that seems to be the state of affairs.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] And the musicals. Is it broken records?

Clark Johnsen [01:27:47] Oh, it's broken. It's broken so many records. It's broken records for that theater. It's broken records on tour in touring houses. It recouped its initial investment at sort of record pace. I mean, it's definitely the most successful Broadway musical in years and years and will continue to run. And, you know, they're doing an amazing job managing it and keeping good, great people in the cast. And, you know, and it won Tonys, like, seven Tonys. It won nine Tonys. Yeah, yeah. You don't shortchange us.

John Dehlin [01:28:20] And you were. You were on the.

Clark Johnsen [01:28:22] Yeah, I was on the Tony. Yeah, it was where, you know, we were. We were all there watching, you know, as a cast, as that. As we won all those Tonys. And it was incredibly memorable moment and, you know, to do a show that's so personal to my life and then have it be such a creative success as well as a commercial success. I mean, it was just a. It was a great. It was a great way to, you know, end my career as a performer.

Life After the Musical and Personal Reflections

John Dehlin [01:28:47] So let's transition. Tell us what you want to. About your life since the musical.

Clark Johnsen [01:28:51] Well, so, you know, I sort of mentioned that I was pre Med during my education. And, you know, about a year, two years into Book of Mormon, you know, my agent started saying, now, do you want to go to some auditions for some other shows? And I was like, I guess it's probably time for me to start looking for my next project. And they kept calling me with auditions for things for, you know, oh, there's a new Broadway show called Matilda coming in. And, you know, do you want to go to an audition for that? And I just didn't want to go to any auditions for anything. And I was like, well, maybe I just really like this show and I just want to stay here. And. And then I just realized that I didn't want to perform anymore and that I was. That I had immensely enjoyed my career, but I didn't want to perform anymore.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] I beat that experience.

Clark Johnsen [01:29:38] Exactly. I was like, how? What can I possibly do after this that's going to be more interesting, better recognized as a great piece of theater? There's just, you know, and it's not even like, well, I can't top this, so I'm going to quit. I mean, it was also that, but it was also. I was just not. I didn't want to. I never wanted to be. I wanted to be an actor for a couple years maybe, you know, and I thought it'd be a fun idea. But after 12 years, I was like, oh, I very much overdue on this. You know, this jelly has expired and I should probably stop eating it. It's pretty moldy. You know, this dream had sort of expired. And so I sort of got my ducks in a row and used the last year and a half I was in the show to sort of get things in motion to apply for medical schools. And I got into a medical school in New York City, and I just finished my first semester of medical school.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] So in terms of your life unraveling and you becoming dark and loathsome by leaving the church.

Clark Johnsen [01:30:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:46] Tell us how things have gone for you.

Clark Johnsen [01:30:47] You know, I truly. And I mean this with all sincerity, I truly. When I began to leave the church, I truly accepted the reality that I would be unhappy outside of the church, but that I would probably survive better outside the church, and that because I would survive, that would make it better. But I truly accepted the reality that I would constantly live with a sense of immense loss for having lost my faith paradigm and lost the blessings of the gospel. And I cannot overstate how firmly I believed that that was true. I said, I'm in a terrible position. I'm going to be unhappy no matter what I do, whether I stay or go. But I refuse to die and I refuse to live my life wanting to die. And so I need to leave. And I know I'll be unhappy leaving, but at least I'll survive. That was truly my mindset when I left the church. I truly believed that if I left the church and started, stopped attending church, I believed that I would be unhappy and that I would miss it. And I have. I will. I don't mean to be mean, but I truly never once, not, not the first Sunday to this Sunday. I never once have missed going to church. I was shocked. I truly, I was absolutely shocked. I didn't miss Sunday school, I didn't miss testimony meeting, I didn't miss the sacrament. I didn't miss any. I didn't miss anything. I'd never. It was the weirdest thing. It was like, it was like the Twilight Zone. And then, you know, you know, I met someone wonderful and I tell us his name. Matt is my boyfriend. He's here. You know, my family has completely embraced him. He, you know, my parents invite us to come home. We're staying at my parents house now. They're putting us in a bedroom together. They're not being like, now you can sleep in the den and Matt can sleep in the, you know, they're like, you're a couple and we love Matt and we see how happy you are and we want you to be happy and we want you to come home because we love you. You know, they're there. That's where it needs to get. Because at some point parents have to realize that they're not responsible. They're not responsible for their choices of their child. And them saying, you can come home but Matt can't or you can come home but you and Matt can't sleep in the same room. How are you in any way endorsing? Not endorsing. You're not changing your child's behavior. You're just being an asshole to your child. You really are. They're having sex, they're having sex. What does it matter if they're, they're not going to come to your house and like, you know, do it in your sheet, you know what I mean? Like they're going to sleep together like a normal couple at Christmas and they're going to show up on Christmas morning and they're going to open their stocking and they're normal, you know, we're a normal couple and we're home for Christmas and we're here to see the new you Know our new niece, Bridget, and we're saying hi to everybody. And my parents got it. They get it.

Guest [01:33:58] It.

Clark Johnsen [01:33:58] They get it. They are so loving. They adore Matt. They give him the same love and respect that they give any other spouse in the family. They're happy for us. I am so proud of my parents. They are. They have been so, so amazing. Like, I. So I, you know, as far as people, you know, I speak to the. You know, I just got tempted to address the camera the way that Satan does. I have a word to say concerning. Satan. No, no, don't look at the camera. It's bad form.

Guest [01:34:38] Don't do that.

Clark Johnsen [01:34:41] You know, I just. I guess what I want to say to people who are really in that state of mind, not everyone is the same. I get that. And I'm not going to make the mistake of saying one size fits all, because I believed that as a Mormon, and that has not proven to be true. I do not believe that there's one way to believe or one way to live that works for everyone. And I don't believe that I have a gospel, a new gospel that I'm going to try to share with people. I don't believe that there's one right way to do things. And I certainly don't believe that I have the answers to people's questions about how to live. I'm not a missionary for any gospel. My own opinions are mine. And they have things that I have earned over the years, and my experiences have taught me certain things. And people might take some of the things that I have learned and connect with with them. And that's wonderful. But in no way do I say, this is the answer and you should listen to me, because I saw what that was like when I was a Mormon, and I didn't like the way it made me feel to have all the answers and to insist that other people take those answers as truth. So that's a huge disclaimer. But I will say to people considering leaving the church, or to people who are on the outskirts or on the fringes who feel like they're not going to be happy outside of the church because that's what they've been told, or they're going to feel very guilty having sex outside of marriage, or they're going to feel very guilty having gay sex with someone that they love, I just. I will say that for myself, that has been so incredibly false. I have. I am so much happier than I was when I was in the church. That may not be true for everybody. I don't think everyone needs to leave the church. I don't think every gay person needs to leave the church. If you're doing good there and you're cooking good, great. Be at church and let other Mormons see that a gay person's a good person. Good for you. I think that's fantastic. For me, it was a violent place. For many gay people, it's a violent place. I think if you're thinking about your own death, gay or not, I think you need to get out. I do. I think you need to get out and go to safety, because when your place of protection is being bombarded, you should get out of that place because that's. You could die if you get bombed, go to safety, and safety may be out of the church. And I think that that's. And I just. I want to say. I want to testify that you can be happy outside of the church. I am. And many Mormons watching this will say you think you're happy, but. And all I can say to that is, you don't know. You don't know whether I'm happy or not. I could be lying. I could be promoting an agenda. I could be trying to get people out of the church. I'm not. But, you know, if people aren't convinced of that by hearing what I've had to say, that's okay with me, too, you know, But I have no agenda. I have no motive. My motive is to save people who are in danger and who have become a danger to themselves. And I want you to save yourself if you are in danger. I think that you owe it to yourself to live. I think that you should get out of the church rather than get out of life. I think that you may have something wonderful to accomplish, and I think you should stick around to try to figure out what that is, even though you don't see what it is from now. And, you know, you can accomplish a lot. You can accomplish a lot, and you can take your experiences and you can help others and you can help yourself. But, you know, for me, getting out of the church was one of the best decisions of my life. You know, finding someone to love is one of the best decisions of my life. Allowing myself to be loved by someone and sharing a full life sexually, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, has been. It's the pinnacle of my existence. It's my biggest passion. My relationship with Matt is so incredibly important to me. I'm so happy that I get to share that with my family now. I'm so glad that my family understands that My relationship stems from love and doesn't stem from some sort of broken, sexual, dysfunctional deviance. I'm so glad that they see it for what it is, and that's human love and compassion. And I'm incredibly happy to be on a journey now that a new journey with my career. And I'm happy that the church and leaving the church has given me the strength and tenacity to challenge old paradigms and have the guts and heart to try something new and something that's difficult. And look at a long road ahead of me in medicine and say I'm not afraid to put in some hard work to get somewhere that's worthwhile. I've survived worse than this and I will continue to accomplish things and I want my dreams in life to come true and I have the power to go after that.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] Well, to be honest, Clark, you've summed it up better than I could have tried to shape you.

Clark Johnsen [01:39:51] To sum it up, that's not true. But thank you for saying that.

John Dehlin [01:39:54] No, I just want to thank you for coming on Mormon Stories, for sharing your story with us. I think you're going to save lives through this interview. Thank you. And through your shining example. I remember Carolyn Pearson once saying that the best thing a young gay kid can do is to let their light so shine to the earth, and that's the best testimony they can give. And I think you're doing that. So congratulations.

Clark Johnsen [01:40:16] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] Thank you for coming on Mormon's 40s. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. To continue the conversation or to keep these podcasts alive through a financial contribution, please check us out@mormonstories.org and thanks for listening.

Guest [01:40:39] I am a Latter Day Saint, I help all those I can I see my friends through times of joy and sorrow Happens when we're dead, we shouldn't think that far ahead the only Latter Day that matters is tomorrow. The skies are clearing and the sun's coming out It's a Latter Day tomorrow, you, worries and your sorrows and your cares away and focus on the Latter Day tomorrow We a ladder day Woo. I am a ladder day Dream along with all my time we always sit together, Come on. We love to dance and shout and let all our feelings out and work to make a better Latter Day Day for each other every step of the way and make a Latter Day tomorrow. I hate Americans already for the joyful a But they're saving it for a Latter Day yeah, Tomorrow is a Latter Day I believe tomorrow is a lad day Joy and all the things that maritate tomorrow Know. Tomorrow Tomorrow is a Latter Day. I be a name on a lad Tomorrow's a different ladder Ladder day. Why a woman's happy? It's because we know it's a Latter Day tomorrow. So if you're sad, put your hands together and pray that tomorrow's going to be a Latter Day and then it probably will be a ladder day. Tomorrow is a ladder day.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.