Introduction and Episode Overview

Margi Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:06] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. This is a special Christmas edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, Dr. John Deland. It's November 30, 2021. Today we have a very special episode for you. We are talking about Christmas after a faith crisis or a Mormon faith crisis. And we are joined in studio as part of our gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis thrive series, the one, the only, Margi Delynn, my sweetheart. Hello, Margi Dehlin.

Carah Burrell [00:00:41] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:42] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] I am so delighted that you wanted to come share with us your Christmas wisdom because there's so many people after a faith crisis that are like, what do we do about holidays? What do we do about Christmas? And. And you, because you've been at this for 10 or 15 or 20 years, you've settled into a really nice approach to holidays and Christmas that I think those who are looking to fill that hole can really benefit from. So thank you for being willing to come and share this with us.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:15] Oh, well, I hope so. And I hope, I hope that's true. And I hope, if it's not entirely true, that at minimum, people feel seen and supported.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:25] It's the season.

Carah Burrell [00:01:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Yeah. We are also super excited to have with us as co host and as partner, Carah Burrell in. In a Christmas sweater.

Carah Burrell [00:01:39] Oh, this is just my regular, normal, everyday fashion. What are you talking about?

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Oh, Merry Christmas.

Carah Burrell [00:01:48] Margi was saying how earlier sometimes the holidays can just be a real downer sometimes. So let this sweater come into your eyeballs and just fill you with Christmas cheer. And if you're listening on audio, run over to the YouTube video real quick

Margi Dehlin [00:01:59] and then run back.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] I love it. All right, great to have you, Carah. Merry Christmas.

Carah Burrell [00:02:04] Merry Christmas, John. Merry Christmas, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] All right, we're also joined in our livestream both on YouTube and on Facebook with listeners. We really hope to incorporate your chats and comments. Carah will be monitoring them, so. And she'll share them throughout the show. Questions and or comments. And we're also really grateful for everyone who engaged on our Instagram channel and on our YouTube channel and on our Facebook channel where people gave ideas and tips and tricks and questions. We'll try to integrate some of those as well. But that's just been an amazing conversation that we'll reference at the end as well. So anyway, without any further ado, Margi, do you want to give us some background for what made you think of this episode?

Reframing the Winter Season After Mormonism

Margi Dehlin [00:02:56] Well, quite a few things, but I would say just the general ideas moving away from what I would say, either a religious framing or even a cultural framing and feeling the need to do so. And then I feel like that's a tricky, a very tall order for people. And so wanting to lend support, wanting to, I feel like, talk about ideas in a way that people can go internal with it and pick and choose and feel empowered to reframe or recreate a winter season. You'll see that I'm going to move away a little bit from the holiday season and more into like a. A winter season for a number of reasons.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:45] But if you're feeling. This is not for people who feel great where they are, you know, in either a religious, you know, frame or a cultural frame where you're just feeling great. This is for people who really are looking to make some intentional changes or feel complicated emotions that can make navigating this time of year tricky.

The Three Layers of a Mormon Christmas

John Dehlin [00:04:08] So let me. Let me see if I can set the stage a little bit. So many of us who were raised orthodox Mormon, we had our Christmases all about, hopefully Jesus, about the nativity scene, about Christmas hymns, about going to church, about, you know, watching the first presidency give their Christmas message.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] You know, family get togethers where the patriarchs rule and the women and children and grandchildren all fall in line and what's not to love about? Kind of a traditional, conservative, orthodox, believing, patriarchal Mormon Christmas. Except that when, I guess, beliefs start to fall apart, you're no longer maybe believing in Mormonism. Maybe you're triggered by the patriarchy. Maybe you're not sure if Jesus was a historical figure.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Maybe you no longer see the Bible or the New Testament as historical. And maybe all of a sudden things that once were very comforting to you, like the structure of the patriarchy, all of a sudden become problematic and family get togethers become potentially problematic because now all of a sudden you're not believing what your family necessarily believes, your parents or siblings or whatever. And then there's the kids. It's like you used to teach your kids about Jesus and you used to teach your kids about Mary and the nativity scene and songs about Jesus. And all of a sudden, maybe after a faith crisis, there's some people that just don't feel comfortable with some or all of these things I just mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] Is that. Did I paint a decent picture, Margi, or do you want to add and care? I'd love to get you in as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:53] Yeah, that's a major layer, and that's what I would say is the religious reframe. I think there's also sometimes after the Religious reframe can come, a cultural reframe where people are less likely to. And the cultural reframe, for me, all the messages around happy families or happy gatherings or what your house should look like or what it should feel like when, you know, Christmas morning and the gifts and, you know, the kind of more commercial aspects of it. And I think that can fall away. And then the third layer that I see that's really important is just people's grief and loss. I think, you know, we can start with kind of if we grew up in homes where holidays were celebrated in ways that felt safe and.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:41] And, you know, jubilant, which in my home, I actually did our. Our holidays were, you know, quite happy that way. But then through the years, you accumulate, you know, things that happen around the holidays. And it's not uncommon to have people who have difficult memories around the holidays growing up or have had experiences of loss and death around the holidays.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:05] I think also, yeah, transition grief and going back to kind of those stories or where's the meaning? Or, you know, just complicated grief. So it's kind of like a tri layer for me. And yes, you may have one layer, you may have two, you may have three, but all these things can make the holidays a little bit complicated.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] I love it. Lots of listeners are saying they're relating. Some even say they wish they had heard this years ago. Care, I'm just curious for you. You're only a couple years into your transition, and it sometimes comes in levels or waves, like, has it just been Christmas as usual for you, or. No. What do you relate to about kind of the problem we're setting up?

Carah Burrell [00:07:50] Definitely I loved Christmas because I loved Jesus and I loved feeling close to my savior and listening to the Christmas songs and just feeling a connection with the higher power that Christ came to earth with this humble birth and rhyming various other things. And I used to take so much joy away from the holiday season. I felt like I grew spiritually every season. And then when I lost my belief in Jesus as an actual deity and savior of mankind, those holiday hymns that were so special and just everything it can. I don't want to say the word triggering lightly, but I can understand if some people would want to use that word.

Carah Burrell [00:08:29] For me, it just. It was. It was holidays. Felt like I was opening an empty present with nothing in it because it didn't feel like it had that special place in my heart anymore. And it just. Every time I heard a holiday song, it made me feel really sad that I. I mean, if I'm going to be honest and speak my own truth. I was raised to believe a lie, so I was raised to believe things about this person, the Savior, that I didn't have all the information to actually believe in. And so it just, it's just the sounds of lies. It's a hymn of lies.

Carah Burrell [00:08:59] Has beautiful music, has beautiful, you know, artistry and so many things that have to do with Christmas. But it just sounds like a big, like, heartache now when I think about Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:09:11] If I'm being honest, I don't want to offend our Christian listeners.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:09:15] I tried out the real Jesus that you guys are talking about. And for you, for me, for me did not actually turn out the way that I was told it would. So, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Thanks for sharing, Carah. And we should acknowledge that that not all people who lose their faith in orthodox Mormonism lose their faith in God and Jesus. And I think probably for many, maybe there's less of a reframe because they're still holding on to God. They're still holding on to Jesus. New Testament and for those of you who of our listeners who are in that situation, we affirm you, we support you. We're not, we're not here to say take Jesus or God out of Christmas at all. And I think there's still going to be a lot in this episode that's relevant for them as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:00] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Is that right, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:10:03] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] Yeah. Well, you're saying care for you. You're feeling pretty salty about Jesus and the New Testament and the Christmas story, is that right?

Carah Burrell [00:10:13] Yeah, I mean, part of deconstructing Mormonism, the first thing I deconstructed was the truth claims of the church. And then I went right into Christianity and I noticed that Kelly, Mike Sell is in the chat who had a Mormon Stories a few months ago and I've been highlighting many, many of her clips on TikTok and she talked about how she wanted to start back to basics and just go through the New Testament and understand who Jesus really was. And I think that's an important part of every Mormon's process, whether they choose to go and become, you know, a Christian and live out the rest of their life that way.

Carah Burrell [00:10:44] But I think everyone needs to deconstruct who Jesus really was and what he came to earth to do and what the stories people wrote about him and what people said. He said, you know, and everybody has to kind of deconstruct not just Mormonism but also Christ if they.

Carah Burrell [00:10:57] And they can end up wherever they feel like the evidence leads them and their spirituality leads them. And I don't judge that. But for people like me, it was just as false as Mormonism to me. And it's really difficult to.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:10] It's.

Carah Burrell [00:11:10] It's Christmas sometimes is honestly just as difficult as if I were to sing a Mormon hymn if I'm singing a Christmas song. Like, it's that level of feeling. Like a betrayal.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think you represent an important part of our audience. I, I feel slightly different. Like, even though I'm not sure about. I mean, I come down on the side of feeling like Jesus probably was a historical figure. More likely than not, though, I don't have any certainty there.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] And. But I'm. And I definitely view the Bible as just wisdom and stories passed down over multiple generations. But I also, I never got to the point where I was really angry about Jesus or even like certain he didn't exist. And so for me, I haven't maybe connected with some of that sadness and anger around Christmas because for me, I'm just like, oh, nice nativity scene. Jesus taught good lessons about being kind. It's a happy time. So I don't, I don't think I've ever fully connected with some of the grieving that you. So I, I'm not saying that as like a counter. It's only just to say maybe we represent different for sure places along kind of the, the post Orthodox Christmas believing spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] And I, and I do want our audience to feel like there's room for all of you here in today's discussion. So we'll hold down different sides of the camp. Is that all right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:12:36] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:12:37] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:12:37] I'm holding down the sad all the time camp.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] And I'm like, hey, Christmas is still awesome, but we gotta tweak some things. And Margi, you've got your own camp.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:49] Yeah, I'm probably in between. Honestly, I do think it was raw for me though, the first few years out. And I think it's really hard to be a human being and then also being in a role of a mother where you're of feeling pretty responsible for creating a holiday.

Carah Burrell [00:13:06] It's huge.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:07] And not really knowing the direction to go, which is where my reframe eventually came in. That's why it came in, was actually trying to rise up, to create something different out of a sense of like, well, for myself, but also feeling very responsible to have my children have something. And we're constantly. This is something we're constantly recreating. We're doing something new this year, then we've something we've never done based on our kids kind of saying, you know, we want this holiday to feel different. And just because culturally people are celebrating Christmas, how about we do something different and we'll talk about that later in the, in the podcast, what we'll be doing instead.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] I love it. I love all the comments coming in, especially the one that just said, Chris, that Carah's Christmas sweater is on point.

Carah Burrell [00:13:57] Oh, I didn't see that one.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] You just highlighted it.

Carah Burrell [00:13:59] Oh, I did, didn't I forgot short term memory loss.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] We're loving all the Thomas. Okay, Margi, you've got a really beautiful opening kind of reframe. Is that where you want to start? Where do you want to take us to begin, Margi?

Humans as Seasonal Beings

Margi Dehlin [00:14:13] Yeah, I think it might be helpful. I don't know how much this will resonate for people. This is just something that has been helpful for me is when you come into a season like this where it's really defined. Christmas is so, you know, religiously and culturally defined. And it's like a day. I mean, at most it's a, it's sort of a month. And then you have this swift, this swift drop off after Christmas where people a little bit in years and then like January, people are like splat.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:45] Feeling like it's very common to feel, you know, that depression afterwards and to feel sort of very down right after that. All that excitement is over. So any. Anyway, one thing I like to tune into and something that's been helpful for me is this idea of seasons and kind of tuning into nature for support and to try and introduce that in a way that hopefully just a foundational sort of approach would be like. I feel like if we were going to say American culture is a season, I feel like American culture is summer. It's like all about the doing. Very high energy, high accomplishment, flourishing everything in full, just maximized summer.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:29] And so it. What's problematic about that is I, I think we're not made to live that way. I think we are part of nature. And so what happens when we, you know, kind of come into this season of winter with a summer kind of attitude is that we miss out and oftentimes we can experience disconnects. And an example of that is with this happy, happy kind of culture around Christmas. And then we actually are feeling sadness or grief, which is actually very winter season. It's very appropriate for the winter season. So we have something culturally coming up at a time of year when actually most humans naturally gravitate toward a winter approach, as opposed to a summer approach. And I can go into what winter is, but this idea of seasons is a way of living and finding support in the seasons.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] So let me just, let me make sure I understand what I think you're trying to do here. So we, we set this up by saying that old approach to Christmas was God, Jesus, first presidency, Mormonism, scriptures, the founding Jesus birth story and all that. You're saying that when that. Tell me if that's right. You're saying that when that all falls to the wayside and it becomes sad Christmas, that, that you're saying for you, building back a foundation around the seasons.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Which I think you're going to build out.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:03] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Is. Is almost like a foundational reframe. Is that, Is that where you're taking us here? It is like as, as important for you now as God and Jesus and the, and the nativity scene was. You're going to tell us how, how seasons in nature have become a core foundational part of enjoying and thinking about Christmas, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:17:26] Yeah, I would say a core part to me being alive and feeling like I'm supported and, and kind of celebrating the time of the year that's in front of me. And so, yes, I would say it's a shift away from Christmas per se and into actually celebrating winter. How can I celebrate winter? And Christmas may be a sliver of that, but it's actually this idea of moving into a season and what winter calls forth from us that's different from, let's say, spring, summ, summer, fall, and how we can celebrate that. Moving into our homes, moving into our practices, moving into food, lots of different things. And we'll be talking about more about that later. But, you know, I can, if you want, I can talk about sort of what winter calls forth that other seasons don't, and how. And just see how people kind of feel about that.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] Okay, so we just got through spring, summer and fall seasonally, which has its own kind of life symbolism, but it also just has a very real warming up, really hot light, you know, super busy, super highlight, lots of life. And then fall starts to represent what.

Fall and Winter as Spiritual Practice

Margi Dehlin [00:18:48] So you want me to talk about fall a little bit. Fall to me is about kind of letting go. Letting go of some of the things in summer, which is about abundance and kind of more and more. It's kind of like, okay, letting things go. There's a bit of a grief practice in fall as well, but it starts to slow down. You kind of start to slow down. You start to Turn a little bit more inside your home. But for me, I really focus a lot on. In all the seasons, I focus on different things in my home. Different practices, different ways of thinking, different processing emotions, what my activities are like. So it becomes really kind of a spiritual. Kind of a spiritual practice, but also a very intentional way of living where you feel supported by nature, by the seasons. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Yeah. And when you sound spiritual, when you say spiritual, you don't mean angels and a heavenly father giving you blessings?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:50] No, no, no, no, no. You.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] You. What do you mean by spirituality?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:52] I just mean connecting, like, to myself and to nature.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] Nature. That spirituality right now in a. In a major way for you. Connecting to something bigger, which is the way the world works and the way nature works.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:08] Yes. And how it can inform us as we live amidst it.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] So you're kind of replacing the spirituality of, like, a sky father and an elder brother that loves you in an atonement theology and all that stuff. You're replacing that with a new type of spirituality, which is a connection to nature that you're a part of and that can help you frame your life.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:33] Yeah, I think so. Okay, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] All right, keep going. I'm loving this.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:40] Please give feedback. I mean, if it's not working for people, but this. This idea of winter. So can I use some analogies? Because I think it just might be helpful for people.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:51] So some analogies of winter, for me, that tend to work well are like a tree, or let's say a bulb. Which would you like first?

John Dehlin [00:21:03] Yeah, both.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:04] Like, if you think of, like a tree. And this is what I love. As we start to look around this time of year, you start to notice the leaves are off trees. Right. And you have this. And as we move more and more into winter, you're going to see that trees become really skeletal. They look dead. They look. If we didn't know better, if we looked at them, we would think they had died like a big dried stick. But in fact, what's happened is they've let go of all the excess, all their leaves, and now they're turning to their roots and trying to absorb moisture, to firm up their roots, in part to kind of protect against winter storms, but it's also to fortify for the year ahead.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:45] And so I really love this analogy because I think it can work for humans, too, that the winter season can call us a little bit more inward. It can slow us down a little bit. We can lean. It's normal this time of year to feel some loss, to feel some Grief, which is countercultural to the messages we receive this time of year, but it is actually supported in the season. And I think that's important to kind of recognize is you can feel supported in doing that as you look around in nature.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:22] So intimate gatherings, oftentimes we want more safety, to feel kind of safe in this idea of, like, warmth and intimacy, more time to process. So that's kind of the tree analogy, and those are some of the basics about kind of what winter affords that other seasons do not.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] So if you're walking around, going on hikes, going on morning walks, being in the cold, seeing the trees without their leaves, and connecting to that as a form of spirituality, not like speaking to the tree, but just like relating to nature as a way to start thinking about the next few months of your life, which is from an external focus to an inward focus. The trees represent how you approach, you know, November, December, January, February of a time to restrict and maybe go more inward.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:25] That's right. And slow down and warm up and cozy up and to fortify your roots, your own roots, and what that would mean to you. So it can mean different things to different people, but what it would mean for you to take a moment to actually process things in the year that maybe you've been traveling so fast that you have yet to process. We gain things by grieving. We gain insight. And we live differently when we take the time to actually process our experiences and what they mean to us. So taking a little more time for yourself in the mornings, being a little bit more easy with yourself, creating softness in your home.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:07] We'll talk more about how to add winter in the ad part of this podcast. What we're going to add. But there are ways that you can show up for yourself in softness, in warmth. But generally, it's. This season is very much about turning inward, reflecting, giving yourself time to process, really being with people who love you and nurture you and who are safe for you, and it's a time to read. It's a time to, you know, be outside and hike and see how nature is doing the same.

The Bulb Analogy for Winter Rest

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Okay, do you want to tell the bulb analogy? I really like that. Is that.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:48] Yeah. So the bulb analogy is another nature kind of analogy that works here, where if you. If you plant a bulb. When do you plant a bulb? You plant it in the fall when the ground has cooled. You plant it deep enough that this bulb is going to be dark and cold. So it needs darkness and it needs the cold. And again, if you were looking after you planted it, you'd be like, okay, so I planted this bulb and now there's snow over it, and it's not growing, it's not doing anything. I don't see anything coming to fruition. All through the winter, right. A month or two goes by, but what's happening actually under the surface is the bulb is slowly germinating.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:35] It needs the cold, it needs the dark, so that in the spring, it actually has what it needs to flourish. And we're not so unlike the bulb where, you know, on. On some level, that darkness that we feel going into the deep of ourselves and taking our time to actually shine light on that, to look at that, to slow down in life, to rest, to nap, to process, that helps us in our creative kind of. Come spring, it will help us also bloom. But you can't have one without the other. Like our spring, just like the bulb needs the darkness, it needs that sort of sleep, if you will, or time where it's actually fortifying in the bulb before you see something outward, we can be the same.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] I love it. Yeah. One of my. One of our dearest friends, Steve Holbrooke, just wrote, there is a deep wisdom in going inward for warmth and depth through the dark and cold times of winter, preparing deeper roots to reach outward again and bloom in spring. Love you, Steve and Chris. We just had dinner with those guys. But. But what you and Steve are kind of saying, Margi, and I'm sorry, I'm just kind of really congelling this. Is that a word? Is. You're basically saying that your life's focus and your life's energy, over the course of a year, you kind of map it to the seasons.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] And so while summer is super busy and you're out there and it's super active, and then fall, you start to slow down. You're saying embracing the winter season as a time to go inward is a way that you regroup, focus on growing your inner self, your home, your interconnections, and mapping or paralleling your focus and your energy and your efforts, paralleling that to the seasons really works for you as a way to kind of do what plants do, which is to grow their roots. You basically are saying you use winter to grow your psychological, spiritual, familial roots in your life.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:03] Yeah. Yeah, I think so. It. It brings a lot of comfort, I think, to my life as opposed to. I think prior to this, when I was trying to live Christmas from this outward way, I would feel confused a lot at the. The sadness I felt in it. Then I would feel wrong or really mismatched with the season. And I just feel like with this model, it actually tends to, I don't know, blend really well with what many of us are feeling this time of year. It lends support, guidance, comfort, and wisdom to what many people are feeling, as opposed to having people feel like what they're experiencing is wrong.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Yeah. All right. Well, Carah, I'm curious, from your perspective, you're kind of saying how Christmas can be a bit of a bummer for you, as Margi's talking about this idea of getting excited about mapping your life to the season and looking at winter as a time to kind of go inward, to grow your own roots, so to speak. Is that. Is there extent to which this is even resonating with you?

Carah Burrell [00:29:19] Yeah, to be honest, it's definitely a new concept, because I think. I don't know, maybe it's just the American culture, something about the way that we live. It's like an always go, go, go. We don't usually think in terms of seasons. Maybe that's just not part of the culture that I was raised in. So it might be the first time that I've heard things like this. But, yeah, they're definitely intriguing. And I think that there's a lot of beauty in the things that. That Margi always says, but specifically this. It's a beautiful, beautiful reframe, and I'm glad that you're sharing it.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:47] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] Oh, good. One of my. One of my old dear friends, Pat Ellsworth. Hey. Hey, Pat. She writes Margi, this is brilliant. So, yeah, people are resonating, so let's keep. Oh, go ahead.

Carah Burrell [00:29:59] Carah and I just wanted to share a super chat from Alan Pratt. So thanks for the super chat, by the way. Oh, Super Chat wants to donate. You can throw some money through YouTube. So we appreciate all the donations that come in through Super Chats. Thanks so much, guys.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Yeah, yeah, thanks. Thanks, Alan, for that donation through YouTube. All right, Margi, so we've talked about trees and bulbs. Where do we go next in this reframe of winter?

Finding Permission to Rest in Winter

Margi Dehlin [00:30:30] Yeah. You know, I think that just. I feel like we've hit kind of all the major points. Some people at this point might be feeling like, how. How exactly? You know, if. If winter really is about sort of processing and slowing down and, on some level, loss and fortifying our roots, how do I get excited about that? Or how do I want to. How do I actually want to do that? And I think that's fair.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] Okay, so wait, so you're saying that part of how you Conceptualize roots. Winter is. You associate with loss and grieving. Is that what you're saying?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:04] That's a core piece of.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] What do you mean? Basically, during winter, you're sad for people who have died. Like, what are you saying there?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:13] No, but you allow for and even expect, as opposed to the culture that we're raised in. When you're having these. How many images do we see of people laughing, you know, celebrating with. With family? It's just image after image. And I just think, you know, that makes.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:34] When you. When you turn inward and you slow down, it is very natural. And then if you layer on that. For you and I, John, we have a number of losses this time of year. So. And I don't think that's unusual. I think divorces oftentimes happen around the holidays. There's a myriad of losses for people. We've. We've been attacked historically.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:55] In the month of December, around Thanksgiving and Christmas, there are me and you. Me. Yes. Sorry. You know, the public attacks tend to come this time of year. I think everyone has their own story of loss. But I don't think it's unusual for people to feel grief. And within this paradigm shift, it allows for that. It normalizes that. It even supports that and promises you, on some level, if you look around in nature, that you're not alone in that. And just like the tree bursts forth in spring, and you can know that that happens, that on some level, you know that this process has a place and that grief has a place, too.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] So you're nodding, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:32:38] I just. Like, grief has a place, too. I like that.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] Yeah. So I was just thinking, when I think about Christmas, oftentimes or the. Or traditional Christmas, it's like, oh, Black Friday right after Thanksgiving. Oh, we got to get the tree out, Got to get the ornaments out, Got to get all the presents. Start consuming, consuming, consuming things. Get hustling and bustling and worrying about what presents you're going to buy and the food and the family and the plans. Like, Christmas can be this time to, like, fill up your brain and your emotions with all the busyness of. Of the holiday season. And what I hear you saying is it doesn't have to be that way.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] It can be a time where you intentionally are mindful of those who have passed. My sister passed away in December five years ago, actually. Your dad passed away five years ago in this season. And you're saying maybe a part of the winter season doesn't have to be the hustle, bustle. Fill it up with busyness to avoid Emotionally connecting with important moments in your life.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Get out of that rat race potentially and intentionally use the winter season as a time to grieve and mourn. Now people are going to say that doesn't sound very fun. Like okay Margi, you want me to give up elves and ho ho ho and jolly and Rudolph the red nosed reindeer and frosty and sledding? You want me to give that up for like being sad about people who've passed away? Where's the upgrade? Been there. What would you say?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:16] Well, I have a couple things to say about that. I think grief shows up amidst the ho ho hoing. You can run, but you can't really hide from grief for long. So I would just say it tends to show up anyway. It's just whether you take time to take care of yourself and process it in a mindful way or if you're going to try and avoid it which our culture that all you describe the hustle and the Black Friday and the is the summer. We love summer we love in America. It's just like all productivity yield, yield, yield, yield, yield or and I think you know, on some level we can't go, go, go all, all year long.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:58] We're not designed for that. And rest is okay, like to slow down is okay. The world gets quiet in winter, there's less stimuli. Go take a walk in winter on a morning and it's still and it's quiet. And I just think sometimes it's okay to allow for your lives, for your life to feel quiet, slower, to do more of what you love. That's comforting. So we're, I'm not saying just to grieve all winter long. I'm saying to slow down and lean into what comforts you too. To lean into pleasure to during winter as well and to allow yourself some time to actually rest in ways that delight you.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] I'm going to say one thing that I deeply connect with about what you're saying is to be honest, if you ask me, you know this Margi, for me and I think for at least some of our children and maybe you, Christmas and sometimes Thanksgiving pulls sadness.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] Like for me when I think about many of the holidays, I don't, I, I'm not happy to say this but I remember my childhood because my parents got divorced, there was always this choice in Thanksgiving or Christmas. Are you with mom? Are you with dad? Oh, there's new step parents involved. Oh, oh, fights happened in Christmas. Oh, there's some really traumatic memories of mom and dad fighting over Christmas and that really terrible trip we took to Waterwood or whatever it is.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] And inevitably, I and other people I know if we're just talking about tapping into our emotional template or our emotional memory, we really don't always look forward to the holidays. And so what we do is we try and say, no, I'm going to be happy. I'm going to enjoy this holiday. I'm going to do it differently this time. But maybe that's avoidance. Kind of like in the movie, the Disney Pixar movie about emotions.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:59] Inside out.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] Inside out. Sometimes when you run away from or avoid your sad emotions, they just get bigger. And so, you know, there was a comment that was maybe a little bit contrary. Somebody said, oh, it was. It was. Kyle says Christmas is about celebrating life, not death. I don't think, Margi, what you're saying is just be sad and grieve all the time. I think you explicitly said not to do that. But if any of you can relate to holiday memories actually pulling sadness, not joy and happiness, maybe the answer is to spend some of that Christmas time, not all of it, or some of that winter time leaning into what you're sad about, leaning into those memories, processing the grief. And maybe that can allow for more happy winter times or a happier life going forward. Because a lot of times grief is unprocessed pain and suffering. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:59] Yes. And there's. There are gifts to be gained, I think, not just in processing grief. And I appreciate that comment on some level because I don't think winter is solely about grief. So I don't want to focus overly on grief, as if that's the point of winter. I think other. There are other aspects of winter, too, like processing. How about processing experiences that have happened to you this year? You know, what you've loved about your life, what you haven't loved about your life. Part of it is just quieting your brain long enough to reflect on your life, your relationships, what you love, how you're spending your time. That is how we live an intentional life. So grief is an aspect that comes up as we live. And normally when we quiet, it does come up, and that's why we're talking about it. But it does not mean that winter is a grieving season.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Yeah, but you're saying the. The presence under the psychological tree of the holidays can be new insight and the processing of sadness or trauma that can lead to healthier, happier lives going forward. Those can be some of the hidden gifts under the reframed Christmas tree of spirituality. Yeah, Margi, slash nature style.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:18] Yes. And just like the bulb and the tree, when you fortify well and you use your winter season well to rest, to process, to contemplate, to feed yourself in all the ways that feel good to you. Right. Which may not be the exact ways that feel good to me, but in the ways that feel good to you. Come spring, you will be ready to create. You will have new resources, new insights that you have gleaned during winter because you didn't power through winter like you did through summer. Or you need see how it all comes into to play. So a well attuned winter provides more nutrients and more blooming come spring.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Beautiful. Love it. All right, where are you going to take us next?

What to Eliminate from Your Holiday Traditions

Margi Dehlin [00:40:16] So we broke this down, didn't we? We broke down kind of how to, how we can approach holidays that allow us to feel a sense of reframing and allow us to feel empowered. And we came up with kind of three major, right, three major points. And the first point was, let's tell the three.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] Let's frame it.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:38] The first is what you eliminate. So what you get rid of. So in looking at the holiday season, if you're, you're wanting to create a new experience for you and your family, that one really easy place to go first is kind of what's not working, what you want to eliminate for this year.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] So there's what you want to. So you're like thinking about all the traditions of the past, what you've done. You're not just saying throw it all out, kill Christmas, stab Santa in the neck and step on baby Jesus. And did I go too far?

Margi Dehlin [00:41:17] Did you just say stab Santa in the neck?

Carah Burrell [00:41:22] We always go over our content reading and we jokingly, it's an old joke that we do every single time we start and John says G and I say X rated. And now look what happened.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Sorry, let me start over. Rewind. So we're not saying throw Christmas in the garbage. We are saying do three things. Figure out what you are going to stop doing. Right. Is that part one, what you eliminate, what you eliminate. Because there are going to be things you eliminate.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] Let's ask our audience now, those of us joining us on YouTube and Facebook to share right now some of the things that you're eliminating. Care, you may have some things you've eliminated. Let's do some inventory of what you eliminate for Christmas. What'd you get rid of? The second thing we're going to talk about is what you keep. Because we're not going to throw everything away. There's going to be things you Keep. And then the third thing we're going to talk about is what you add. So right now we're going to pass into phase one. And this is good for the outline. Phase one, what you keep.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:20] All right, so no, it's what you eliminate.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] Oh, sorry, sorry. What you eliminate.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:24] That's the easiest for people to.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] Sometimes what you eliminate. I'm arguing. So you tell us first how you think about what you eliminate and then Carah will have you jump.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:32] Yeah, I'm really curious, actually about.

Carah Burrell [00:42:34] Yeah, I'm processing in real time online.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:37] Yeah. Okay, well, okay.

John Dehlin [00:42:38] And Carol will.

Carah Burrell [00:42:39] Haven't thought about it yet.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] And Carol will incorporate comments from our audience. Okay, so audience, start typing now in Facebook and YouTube, what you eliminate.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:48] So Margi, frame it for us and we'll volley these. Because you can do this, right?

John Dehlin [00:42:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:52] Okay. So one thing that you may want to consider editing for this year, potentially other years, but I like going year by year are, you know, religious themed songs, resources, movies, nativity sets, kind of religious themed reminders.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] Now you're not telling people they need to eliminate that.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:21] I'm saying you may want to consider. And the way you would know, some

John Dehlin [00:43:24] people feel like they want to is.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:26] That's right. The way you would know is how it feels to listen to put those out, put the nativity sets out, photos or frames or certain books. I know we, for us, we had to edit our holiday books. And so taking the time to kind of think about religious themed reminders during this, this season and if. If it's not you, awesome. These are just suggestions, right?

John Dehlin [00:43:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:59] So that's one thing that I find people often have to eliminate, at least for a time. How about you?

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of people typing in, I think. Carah, do you want to say what people are? I mean, the Nativity, Nativity thing is triggering for a lot of people, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:16] Yeah, I think that's quite common.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Yeah. Anything you're seeing popping up, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:44:21] Yeah, you highlighted most of them.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:44:23] Which I have similar feelings on, you know, nativity scenes. Just general decorations around the house that are a little too Jesus esque and just more like holiday themed. More just, you know, more neutral a little bit. And then. Yeah, it's. I'm still having. I'm still struggling between what Christmas songs I listen to because like I said, they kind of are like, so. Still thinking about that one, but. What do you got, John?

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Yeah, so. So some Christmas songs you kind of want to eliminate, Is that what you're saying, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:44:53] I don't know if I've gotten there yet. There's some jams, you know, there's some real good ones. I was singing Christmas songs all day yesterday, annoying the heck out of John, so.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] Yeah, well, not.

Carah Burrell [00:45:02] I still love it.

John Dehlin [00:45:03] Why did you never annoyed me? What are you talking about?

Carah Burrell [00:45:06] I was. I was very annoying, but I can't physically annoy John. That's too charming. No, just kidding. I was singing like Jesusy Christmas songs pretty loudly and annoyingly yesterday and John didn't tell me to shut up. He's a great boss.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:18] And we will come to, by the way, additions, like things you can do in place of.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] Yeah, I'll just say for me, I. For some reason. Yeah, this is. I kind of gave a bit of a heads up on this early on in this episode. I don't mind hearing a Holy night or Stars were Gleaming or When Jesus Joseph came to Bethlehem or whatever. Like, for me, I've always loved the hymns and the music. Even if I go to a Mormon chapel today and sing hymns, even if I sing Hail to the Prophet, you know, whatever, Follow the Prophet, like, I don't love the lyrics, but. But the music makes me so happy. Even around Christmas time. It's not triggering for me, but for a lot of people it just is, you know? Yeah. I think everyone's different for them. You're saying, feel free to eliminate the

Margi Dehlin [00:46:08] songs or like for me, in my case, I mean, to be honest, for me, I. I still don't particularly love hearing the Christmas themed children's songbook songs, for example, or I think hymns would probably come next after that.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] And that's. Why is that.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:31] And then just really because I think for me it's. It's just sort of rooted in something that no longer informs me. It's an old story for me. It's a story that it, I think has beauty in it, but I think the way it was used in my

Carah Burrell [00:46:49] life,

Margi Dehlin [00:46:51] you know, it was overdone and it created a narrative and a life for me for a time. That is like a past self, I think I. I just sort of look at it as a past self. And now I kind of focus on different, kind of different messages through the winter season that I don't lean so much into that.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:17] Yeah, that's for me.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] All right, Carah, what else are you seeing? I. I know you're showing some things visually, but the audience is listening, kid.

Carah Burrell [00:47:25] Oh yeah, Listening audience. I liked a commenter who talked about just listening to the instrumental versions of music because it takes the lyrics out of it, because nostalgia can still resonate that way. And I like that idea, too. So I'll try that when I get home tonight.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:42] That's a great idea.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for that feedback. Okay. What other things, Margi, do you have in your list?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:51] Do you want to take one?

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Let's see. What have I. What have I eliminated?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:55] The next on the list. Oh, the second point. Do you want to do that?

John Dehlin [00:47:59] The second point of. Of what gets eliminated.

Carah Burrell [00:48:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Yeah. I love that. So let's see. So the second one we have is cultural expectations. Oh, I love this. So cultural expectations or high expectations? Expectations to feel happy. Expectations to accomplish the commercial consumerism, Christmas picture of success. To always have to have the happy family and all of the family together and to show up at every party. So I love this. So. So one thing you can get rid of is the craziness and the pressure and the hecticness of Christmas. The consumerism, the shopping, the demands, the. Go to everything, be happy all the time, please everybody. And. And I guess what you're saying, Margi, what maybe we're saying is saying yes to saying no.

Carah Burrell [00:48:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] So. So. So clearing up space. Because if you're going to have time to meditate, to do introspective work, to be insightful, the cozy time at home, you kind of have to give a boot to the hustle and bustle sometimes and be willing to slow down and create that space that you need to do some of the internal work.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:19] Yeah. So I hear you kind of saying, simplify, simplify the schedule. Say no to things that kind of don't resonate with you.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:29] Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Yeah. I think. I think one of the things people can hate about the holiday season is just how crazy busy and stressful, Relentless.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] What if you could. What if you could just say, choose, choose happiness. Choose joy. Make the holiday season really about joy, not about staying super busy.

Carah Burrell [00:49:48] Yeah. And I think last Christmas was probably my favorite because of COVID in the way that nobody was expected to do anything. My kids didn't expect to, like, go out. We didn't have a bunch of holiday parties or anything. It was just family all the time. So while Covid was a 20, 20 was obviously a hard, hard year in a lot of ways. I loved what it did to Christmas for my family. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:09] Yeah. And I think this can especially be true too, with parents, because I think. Or partners where you're kind of feeling like you're really having. You're feeling this desire to create a holiday from scratch. And so it's very Easy to fall into traps about, you know, creating magic for your kids at every turn or especially when you're pairing it with going to every party or buying all the gifts or, you know, doing all of the festive activities.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:43] I think that can be very tough because then you have meltdowns with children or. Or oftentimes it's really common after Christmas morning to have kids that are exhausted or have meltdowns and are crying or. And so watching those expectations and allowing for the messiness of life for sort of how emotions work and show up fully, all emotions as we live and having those expectations, just sort of being mindful of what type of pressure and ideal you're holding yourself to.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] I love it. I think it's. It. I think there's a comment here. I think it's Alana who writes eliminating the expectation to go home across the country for Christmas. A lot of people feel like they have to do. If they live away from their family members, they have to do the annual.

Carah Burrell [00:51:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:39] You know, migration back home to. To visit all the family. And I remember when we used to do that and those were some of my least favorite holidays ever. Just because you're driving all the time and the kids are throwing up and screaming and you're sleeping in uncomfortable places. What if this year you gave yourself the freedom to just say I'm staying home. We're just going to do Christmas ourselves this year and extended family is going to have to like, you know, cope with that us because we need just some quiet time and escape the craziness.

Carah Burrell [00:52:11] Yeah. Let's not underestimate the power of FaceTime and Zoom. When I want to see you guys.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:16] Yes. Covid kind of brought that home.

Carah Burrell [00:52:18] Right?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] Okay. I love it. I love it. What's the next one, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:25] Another thing to just consider. I feel like let's say eliminating or making some changes to. So it could be also an ad.

Carah Burrell [00:52:38] But we'll.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:38] We'll put it under Eliminate is kind of unhealthy. Family gatherings around religious themed things or things that you just never have enjoyed but or particularly this year feel tender or where things feel strained. So you. Any event basically that you're going into feeling really sad that or stressed that you're going to. I might consider either eliminating some of those at least put it on the table as to whether you go or that you create boundaries and some ways to navigate doing those things that honor you too.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:20] So a way that some questions you can ask around that would be like how long do I want to spend at this event. Do I want to go to this. Do I want to go to this gathering at all? Right, That's. First of all, let's say it's a family nativity. Do I want to go to this extended family nativity at all? If you do decide. Yes. How long do I want to spend at the. You can limit the time that you're at the activity. Right. Or do you want to replace that? No, I actually don't feel like, you know, I. That's something I can give this year, but I would have a gathering where I invite my family to.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:59] To decorate cookies at my house or so creating another family gathering either in addition or two, or instead of something that doesn't feel honoring so unhealthy, kind of idealized, obligatory family gatherings also. Yeah, that's kind of the. The family demands.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] I love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:22] Is another one.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] I love it. And that's going to be hard for some. And then we. We kind of already have touched on this, but there's a really, really cool comment. Tiana writes, love it. Too many gifts to buy and too much to do. It's so stressful. That kind of brings up this financial idea. Like, a lot of people, like, really get themselves into financial trouble over Christmas or they're just buying and wrapping all the presents. Like, what if you gave experiences? What if you gave just one gift? What if you did?

Carah Burrell [00:54:52] We.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] We've done this, and we're kind of saying what we add already here, but because it's the topic, we've done some years where instead of everyone buys presents for everyone, we've done it where we call it Secret Santa. What do we call it? Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:07] Yeah. In the past, we've called it Secret Santa, where.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] Where each member of the family only buys a gift for one member of the family. So I get Winston, you get, you know, Adrian, Adrian gets Maya, Maya gets Clara. And that just dramatically simplifies the number of presents you're having to buy for everybody. And. And it could also save you money. Like, why add financial stress to your life when a lot of times these gifts just don't get used or get thrown away, or it's just a bunch of junk, or it ends up in landfills. I even hear about parents giving, like, a vacation with the family as the gift. Right. And that really can simplify.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:49] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] Giving an experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:51] That's right. And that kind of leads into another thing that you could eliminate, which is just sort of excessive consumerism that really doesn't honor you or your budget. So intentionalizing Gifts getting very intentional, getting creative. For many years, in our lean years, we would do Secret Santa, but they were homemade. And we had, like, for many years, our kids wrote each other songs, poems, made art, and they were always the favorite gifts. So you can get creative there. And I just think, really with gifts, more is not better, you know?

John Dehlin [00:56:31] Yeah, I love it. Okay, well, we've touched on some of the things to eliminate. Obviously, some people eliminate going to church. Other progressive or post Mormons supplement their church going with going to other churches. Some go to the Catholic church, the Episcopalian church. Some do nature kind of church. But eliminating church is a reality for a lot of people. Carrie, are you still going to church?

Carah Burrell [00:56:59] Do I still go to church on.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] On Christmas?

Carah Burrell [00:57:01] No. But that's actually funny that you ask, because I honestly do have so much not happy feelings around Christmas for so long that I wanted to do something that was exciting for me. So in the years leading up to my faith crisis, I decided every Christmas we would go to a different denominations church. And I did one and I did like a. Like an evangelical type church down the street from my house that had great music and everything. And I had a place for the kids to go during the main meeting. And I was like, free babysitting. Oh, my gosh. You know, and like, that was the treat that made the Christmas so much fun, was going to a different church and seeing their different traditions, listening to their music, their band.

Carah Burrell [00:57:39] Great idea, you know, and that. That made me feel so much better. And then I talked about it on Facebook and like, half of my Mormon friends are like, cool, we've done that too. And then the other half are like, you were sounding like an apostate.

Carah Burrell [00:57:51] You just wait. But anyway, so even something as simple as, yeah, finding something that is different that we haven't done before this year, that I'm looking forward to that in my Mormon self. I never gave myself permission to go to a different church, but I was like, aha. If I say I'm doing it at Christmas time, everyone, the Mormons will understand. Jokes on you. I'm also losing my faith.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:10] Yes. And. And also, let your kids be part of this. I mean, it was always really interesting to me when I brought it to my kids. Hey, here are all the things that. That. Here are all the things we do, like reading Christmas stories or. And really spelling out different options for the holiday season. And it was always interesting to me, the things that my kids would say, I don't really need that, or I don't actually enjoy that, or let's not do that. So part of. I always found it to be really an important piece to have your children feel like they have a say in the holiday too.

Carah Burrell [00:58:45] I love that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:46] Are there. I'm curious for you, Carah, is there anything this year that you just kind of know in your brain you want to eliminate?

John Dehlin [00:58:54] We're moving to elimination. Oh, no, no.

Carah Burrell [00:58:56] We're still already done elimination, basically.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Sorry.

Carah Burrell [00:59:00] I. To be honest. Yeah. I mean My kids are 7, 5 and 1. They do not need anything. They don't need a single thing. Their entire lives are. They're in. Their little kid brains are wrapped up in how can I get more toys in the house that we already have enough toys in and mom wants to just throw away all the toys because you guys are, you know, brats and you don't deserve anything else. So they have their little brains wrapped around Christmas and making the Christmas lids, which is very cute and traditional. But I'm trying to explain to them that capitalism is a death cult.

Carah Burrell [00:59:29] We're all going to die if we keep up this consumerism that like we need to be thinking about what traditions we can incorporate this year. So we're putting up the tree tonight and I want to make that a family activity. But I don't want to encourage any more acquisition of things in the house. But I don't know how to break that in. Their little 7 year old and 5 year old brains, it's really, really difficult. They're so tied to material, material things and they think Christmas is their one time. They just get to like get everything their heart ever desires. And I've never taught them that.

Carah Burrell [00:59:58] I just think culturally that's still come into their brain. I've never given them huge Christmases. They've all always gotten three gifts or less. So I'm trying to figure out a way to eliminate a lot of that, you know, consumerism that a lot of people in the comments as well are talking about that like you have to have a lot of stuff to make it a good Christmas. And I wish just being a family and doing family traditions and giving experiences would be enough. But I know my kids and I know that they will just be crying Christmas morning if they get, you know. Yeah. One present or something. So I. That's still a big mystery. I don't know how to figure that one out.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:31] Yeah, that struggle is real.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Everything Carah said and the position that capitalism is a death cult is not the official position of Mormon Stories of the Open Stories Foundation. And we welcome people who like all sorts of economic systems. Shout out to our pro capitalist listeners out there.

Carah Burrell [01:00:53] Thanks for your donations. Appreciate you.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] A couple comments from the listeners that I'm loving. Some of this is. It falls in other categories, but I think we'll miss them if we don't mention them. LC writes, the best holiday we ever had was going on a cruise that fits in the what to add section, but I like it anyway. Same with Tyler. Tyler writes, volunteering for a community cause can be an excellent replacement for church. I love that idea. And then, Carah, I think the. The comment of the. Of the episode is from John Sargent, who writes, love your cozy Christmas sweater and cute braids, Carah. That's your favorite comment.

Carah Burrell [01:01:31] Thanks. You just made my Christmas.

What to Keep from Your Holiday Traditions

John Dehlin [01:01:35] All right, all right, Margi. So that's what. To boot. What's part two?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:41] So part two would be what you keep.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:44] So basically keeping the idea of what you keep would be things that feel like they're adding value or they honor you or on some level, help you create a season that feels like you. Okay, so we kind of went through some of the major things that we kept. I think we should just kind of shoot through.

Carah Burrell [01:02:09] And I'm curious if.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:10] Carah.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] I love this part.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:12] Any addition? So these are things that. That, you know what?

Carah Burrell [01:02:16] Okay, wait.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:16] One last thing. You know what's funny that we eliminated John is. This is going to sound extreme, but with our children, we did not have Christmas on Christmas Day. Do you remember that?

John Dehlin [01:02:28] Yeah, we had.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:30] We had presents day after Christmas Day.

John Dehlin [01:02:33] Okay. This is how tedious of an orthodox Mormon I was. I was so frustrated that every. Carrie, you're gonna laugh at this. Are you ready to laugh, Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:02:42] I'm reading John Sargent's comment again and again and again. I am laughing all the way.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] If you comment Carah.

Carah Burrell [01:02:50] Repeat.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] If you comment Carah. She stops paying attention to the episode and just, like, smiles at the compliments. Stop. Stop. Stop distracting Carah from her job, please.

Carah Burrell [01:03:03] She said, all I want for Christmas is Carah as my Christmas mascot. Thanks for the qualifying.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] Can we get you back now, Car?

Carah Burrell [01:03:10] I'm listening. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:10] Okay. I'm joking. This is Carah. This is how tedious. I don't know if you can imagine me this way. You probably. Probably can because of the way I'm a boss, but this is how tedious of a Christmas Grinch I was.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:20] It wasn't a Grinch, though, ironically.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] Well, let me frame it, then you can soften it. So I was so frustrated that every Christmas would come by and we would never think about Jesus, and it was all the kids, only Cared about presents and food that I declared in the Delin home for probably 15, 20 years that Christmas would not be celebrated on Christmas Day, that presents would be opened on the 26th, that the best we could do on Christmas Day was open one present. And during Christmas Day, it was all about Jesus, about family time, about a Christmas movie. And the kids had to wait until the day after Christmas to open their presents.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:03] No.

Carah Burrell [01:04:04] And did they love you more where they were just like, family time? Yes, I am on board with that dashboard.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] They're like, dad, you're the biggest pain

Margi Dehlin [01:04:10] in the room, actually. So the thing that was interesting about this, that played out through the years is kids adjust like that was their normal. So they kind of structurally thought it was a bit extreme. But they loved Christmas Day because Christmas Day, we woke up, we made this really delicious breakfast. That secret Santa gift was opened. That was the one gift they could open. It made it the most special gift. It made it the most like. It put it front and center, people. So. So all the kids were motivated to make the gift super special. We then went usually on a hike, we had a Christmas movie, and then we had an amazing Christmas dinner.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:48] And what happened slowly was the kids realized they actually were happy without the gifts. So before the gifts day, they were like, hey, we actually had a good day without gifts. But we did eliminate that amidst our faith transition. So that was a funny thing to eliminate was we actually open gifts on Christmas day. So the kids were like finding that very amusing. That then they were like, wow, I'm like 16 and I'm opening a Christmas gift on Christmas day.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Anyway, all their friends, they have entered the main. Oh, great. My friends, all our friends got all these cool gifts and they're telling us all about it. And we have to wait till tomorrow. Thanks, dad.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:29] Yeah. Anyway, yeah, it's amazing they love us at all.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] Okay, well, I think they're working through that right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:36] That's part of their.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Part of our kids Christmas grieving and therapy is having us as parents.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:40] Our children are openly processing this winter.

Carah Burrell [01:05:44] Can I just say how they grew up in our home. It reminds me there's a wife swap episode about a Mormon family you're going to bring swinging into this wife swap episode. It's a show.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:54] It's called Wife Swap. I know what you mean.

Carah Burrell [01:05:56] Thank you, Margi. Me and the gals are talking about reality TV over here. And there was an episode where there's a Mormon family that all of the family members had to celebrate their birthdays on one day a year and when they swapped, the other wife was like, we are not having this. And it just makes me think, like, I don't know, maybe we have, well, intentions about, like, let's just put things together. But then your kids just, you know, they end up in therapy and probably.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:17] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:06:17] Other issues, you know, so it's like, I don't know what I hope. What the. Everyone's doing well. Cheers.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:24] Yes. Peppermint tea for all of us.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] Okay, back to what?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:29] Back to what we're keeping. So we love music in our home.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] So music is the first thing we're keeping.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:34] So what are. What is the music that we played before that we continue to play?

John Dehlin [01:06:39] It used to be Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas songs. Those for me. I used to love those at the holiday for me. Oh, but you're so. We had to boot that, right? A little bit.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:52] So that's the eliminate.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] Yeah, but I mean, now the music is what?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:56] It's like Carpenter's Christmas, Michael Buble. It's Merry Christmas. That's right. It's. I love Diana Krall Christmas. John loves Straight no Chaser, Nora Jones. We love Nat King Cole and Burl Ives. There's like a classic Christmas kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:07:14] We love all the Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer and Frosty the Snowman songs. Charlie Brown, the instrumental, George Winston in Charlie Brown Christmas. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:25] There's Hard Candy Christmas by Dolly Parton. That's my family's favorite song. If you're talking about, like a grieving song, that one's about, like, I'm just gonna go pack my bags. I'm gonna go learn to sew, but I'm getting out of here. So that's a great one for the. That winter grieving process you're talking about. Hard Candy Christmas, Dolly Parton. Wow. Have you heard that one?

John Dehlin [01:07:42] No, I've never heard of it.

Carah Burrell [01:07:43] She's pissed and she's ready to celebrate Christmas.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:46] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] You're have to play that for us after the show. Okay, well, Bargie, we forgot one super important Christmas album. Celine Dion.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:54] That.

Carah Burrell [01:07:55] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:55] What's our song on there?

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Another year has gone by. I'm still the one by your side after. It's a good song.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:07] Yeah, that works for us. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] Music. So keep. We keep music.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:12] Yeah. So look through music and decide and be intentional about what. What serves you now.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:20] Okay. How about movies?

John Dehlin [01:08:21] The second one is Movies Stayed. What's that?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:24] What has Stayed?

John Dehlin [01:08:25] Yeah. So what has stayed? Movies. We. Did I mention the fact that we didn't let our kids open Presents on Christmas Day. One of the traditions we had for Christmas day was to watch a Christmas movie each year as a family. We've kept that. Now, what are some of the movies we rotated like every three years? We would watch either It's a Wonderful Life with, with Jimmy Stewart and Frank Capra. It's a Wonderful Life.

Carah Burrell [01:08:52] Wonderful Life. So I want to hear my impression.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Oh, Carah's pulling out the Jimmy Stewart impression.

Carah Burrell [01:08:57] I, I make my sister laugh every Christmas because I just start naming kids names and when every time I see children, I'm just like Jimmy and Becky and Sally and Betty.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:07] I feel like I'm there. I'm in the set right now.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] Jimmy Stewart here in a Christmas sweater with braids.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:14] That's right.

Carah Burrell [01:09:15] John and Margi.

John Dehlin [01:09:17] All right, so it's Wonderful Life. We also like Little Women. So you like not the Little Women that recently was released?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:26] Well, I do like that one.

John Dehlin [01:09:27] Right? But the one that we watched year after year after year was the one Susan. Susan Sarandon and Winona Writer. It's an amazing Christmas movie. Check it out. If you're looking for an amazing Christmas movie, Little Women is a feel good movie that you will treasure year across year. We've also enjoyed miracle on 34th street as a Christmas movie. We've enjoyed the Family Stone, Sarah Jessica Parker, one of the Owen Wilson brothers. I forget which one. It's an all star cast.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:59] We love that one.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] Yeah, Family Stone's a big one. And I'm curious, Carah, if any of our, if any of our listeners are sharing any of that.

Carah Burrell [01:10:06] Yeah, I just highlighted a bunch.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] But again, our audio people, people can't.

Carah Burrell [01:10:10] I know. Zingalazi way.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] With which one?

Carah Burrell [01:10:15] Zingle all the way.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] Okay, sorry.

Carah Burrell [01:10:17] Jingle all the way. I said it with my Schwarzenegger accent. Yeah, we got Muppet Christmas Carol, Family Stone. Everyone's obviously a stand for Carpenter.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation with Chevy Chase.

Carah Burrell [01:10:31] Yeah. And should we get into the debate of if Die Hard stays or goes for a Christmas movie? It always gets people to like flipping tables and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:10:40] Well, Carah, we're trying to help on Mormon stories. We're trying to help people develop their own intrinsic sense of moral authority.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:45] So if so, watch Die Hard, what

John Dehlin [01:10:47] would the answer be, Sarah?

Carah Burrell [01:10:49] It's definitely because I want to. I want whatever excuse I can to watch Bruce Willis go get bad guys. So if I'm like, oh, it's Christmas again, I get to watch 1, 2 and 3 all night long. Sorry, Aaron, it's what? Christmas. That's my Christmas tradition now. So. So I'm. I'm for it.

John Dehlin [01:11:04] I think Christmas Story is like.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:06] Yeah, with Patrick Stewart. We watched that one too.

John Dehlin [01:11:08] Oh, no, no, I'm not talking about. You're talking about like Scrooge or A Christmas Carol. I'm talking about the Christmas story with the bb with the kid that gets his tongue stuck on the pole and. Yeah. In the BB Gun. Am I confusing these, Carah? Is that right?

Carah Burrell [01:11:23] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] Okay, okay. All right. So we're keeping. We're keeping movies, Margi, as part of our Christmas.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:29] Yeah, any.

John Dehlin [01:11:30] Carrie, do you have any.

Carah Burrell [01:11:31] We're not going on lds.org and watching a Nativity Christmas esque video every night, like morning.

John Dehlin [01:11:38] Wait, I have a really important question. What about Mr. Krueger's Christmas? Are we keeping Mr. Krueger's Christmas with Jimmy Stewart, by the way?

Carah Burrell [01:11:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Or are we getting rid of that? Because that's a really great Christmas tale that's got Jimmy Stewart in it. But the Mormon church produced it. What's the answer, Margi? Yes or no? Thumbs up, thumbs down.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:56] Look inside yourselves. For me it's a no.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] Carah, Mr. Krueger's Christmas.

Carah Burrell [01:12:00] Yeah, it's a yes. I'm go with yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:02] For me it's a yes. For me it's a yes. Margi, will maybe me and Carol watch it and you'll not watch it. How's that gonna work?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:11] Be creative. Explore. Anyway. Oh, same with decorations.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] Okay, decorations is the next category.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:20] Decorations, what you keep. So we kind of talked earlier about nativities and some of those decorations. Books. I actually used to use Christmas books to decorate. And so that actually was. Was a two in one. But yeah, look through your decorations and kind of see right now because of my focus on I celebrate winter and we can talk about that in the additions. But I traditionally have a Christmas tree and stockings because I love one of my favorite parts of the holiday season is actually putting gifts in the stockings. They're my favorite. So those are the two Christmasy kind of decoration things I do. I feel like the rest is kind of more winter oriented. So look through your decorations and see kind of what decorations suit you, how much you want to decorate, you know, how much work versus simplifying you, you kind of want to do there.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] So what I'm hearing you say is even if we're eliminating, if some are eliminating the nativity scenes, the Jesus, you know, sculptures or whatever, that you can still have a festive holiday home over the holiday season with white lights and even a Christmas tree. If you want it. Yuletide stuff, mistletoe green stuff hanging everywhere. You can still make the home festive in jolly even if you don't have a nativity scene. Is that what you're saying?

Margi Dehlin [01:13:53] You really can now, what I will tell you is I have naturally shifted away from Christmas decorations and more into winter decorations. And that really helps the day after Christmas or New Year's when you're taking down a tree, to not feel like all of a sudden your house is wiped clean of all remnants of holiday cheer. Yes. So you can keep that in mind. Yes. I definitely have a home that has decorations in it. I would say I just have more winter that stay up longer. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:14:30] And I like this comment from Ellen Lat. Sorry, I got your name wrong last time. I think I just said Pratt. I think it's. I think adding wine.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:38] That's. That's a.

Carah Burrell [01:14:39] That's a fun one. I feel very Christ like when I do that, so.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] And Joseph Smith, like Joseph Smith drank wine.

Carah Burrell [01:14:45] I feel like every prophet before 1905, like you're connecting so much in my life, connecting to my heritage.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:52] Wow. All the connections are happening.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Carah, I'm curious if you've even had time to do some holiday decorations and if so, what your home, what festivities your home reflects.

Carah Burrell [01:15:05] You will also not be surprised to know that my children are so naughty that I can't actually decorate very many things because my one year old will come around and just tear things around. Wait, Cute, cute little cow hand.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] Cute little Callahan is a. Is it?

Carah Burrell [01:15:18] Our house is kind of big. Yeah. But I did get rid of our nativity sets, which kind of hurt. I think I still have all of our ornaments, though, and I feel like I can't outrun that. My family is Mormon and that we come from, like, my husband's pioneer heritage. And I feel like a responsibility as a mom that I have to teach my kids about religion as objectively as I possibly can about the traditions that you're going to be hearing about from your friends and your cousins. And when we go over to grandma and grandpa's house, the things that are important to them. So I actually do.

Carah Burrell [01:15:51] And we put up. Now I'm thinking back, we put up when I put up the ornaments on the tree and we talk about the different ornaments and different, you know, places. We got different ones that are special to us and the ones that have baby Jesus on them. We do talk about the significance of baby Jesus at this time because they're going to be hearing it. So I just kind of like to refresh their memory about what other people celebrate at Christmas. And my kids know, my kids are kind of little punks and they'll go around to grandma and grandpa's house and they'll be like, hey, we don't believe in God. And just like walk out of the room and drop a bomb on my parents like that.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:21] So.

Carah Burrell [01:16:21] So as much as we try to teach them how to be, you know, like nuanced and like, you know, soft, they're still getting it. Seven and five. But that's, that's the theme, that's what we're going with. That's my ideas at least. But I have a question. Do you mind if I ask Margi?

John Dehlin [01:16:38] No.

Carah Burrell [01:16:38] She's got such a good brain. And I question, I think parents want to know is when do you tell your kids about Santa Claus and the truth claims? When do we, when do we break the truth claims that are not what we thought they were around Santa Claus? Because it feels like my kids know that I'm always going to be very truthful with them about religion and about. They know that we just came from Mormonism. And now I am just spinning a web of lies about Santa Claus and elves and their behavior and Elf on the shelf. And I feel like I'm a two faced mom over here. And I don't know, I don't know what age they're supposed to, supposed to know the truth about Santa Claus.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:13] Cause you know, well, Santa kind of fell early in our house unfortunately because we had a child that was just like, tell me, tell me, is Santa true? Tell me, are you being honest? I feel like she was, this is the same child that was like with Noah, had the Noah story where she's like, wait, God created Noah? God created the people, God created the animal and then God killed all the like her brain was just, I feel like she was like 4 or 5. So we end that ended kind of early the way that went down in our house. Are you feeling good about like, are you feeling on the same page where it's something you want to keep doing?

John Dehlin [01:17:54] This is where she's asking you to go internal.

Carah Burrell [01:17:56] Carrie, if somebody asked, why even tell them about in the first place? Well, first of all it's just like culturally it's fun part of childhood. I think that I don't want to take away from them. Just because your mom's like a cold hearted atheist doesn't mean I have to like ruin Christmas. From the time you're born. Like kid, there's no God and no Santa I don't want to. I don't want to do that to them.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:13] I still want to let them have

Carah Burrell [01:18:14] some Christmas magic until a certain, you know, developmentally correct age. Because my 7 year old is asking a lot of those.

John Dehlin [01:18:20] You're basically saying keep Santa. That's basically what you're saying for her.

Carah Burrell [01:18:24] For her trying to figure out. Because it. There's a lot of. That's like if you give read to Jesus and get rid of Santa, like I don't have anything else left. I don't have anything.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] You got to titrate the pain and suffering. So throughout Jesus, keep Santa.

Carah Burrell [01:18:37] Yeah. And Soap and Clay said that their kids are watching right now and Santa is fully real. And that's what I'm trying to say is how. How much I tell the kids about the reality of Santa and how great he is and that he exists. And all of the things that we talk about with Santa are very much true kids. So anyway, and our answers.

John Dehlin [01:18:54] Look inside.

Carah Burrell [01:18:55] Look inside.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] Look inside. What. What does your spirit tell you you should do? Carah,

Margi Dehlin [01:19:02] we'll talk.

Carah Burrell [01:19:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say because it's all. Everything with religion, Santa. It's all just like a behavior modification mechanism in a lot of ways. And I don't get the behavior to

Margi Dehlin [01:19:13] me what I would say.

Carah Burrell [01:19:15] Can I please inform you that I

Margi Dehlin [01:19:16] would say about Santa. I don't love. I don't love the naughty and nice part. You get presents if you're nice.

John Dehlin [01:19:24] Yeah. You don't get that Sounds familiar.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:26] Only because we want children to have healthy ways of viewing their emotional landscapes. That there aren't good emotions versus bad emotions and that they have to be like aspirational to get the performance equals

John Dehlin [01:19:41] words hustling for as opposed to.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:44] So if it's. If it's more. And that's something that, you know, on a level I feel like you're probably going to have to touch point often as your kids get older. Right. And then how you do it and if you do it one by one when they kind of max out, what we found is just it happened at different ages with our kids to keep it a secret. And we never did a ton with Santa. Like one thing we did was slowly phase out Santa because I started feeling worse and worse. So that Santa only gave one present and then mom and dad gave the rest.

Carah Burrell [01:20:17] Yeah. What's up with that?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:19] So. So over time Santa just naturally kind of left the room. But this is. This is something that I think. Yeah, you have to kind of connect with yourself and it's probably ongoing and try to be easy on yourself like with all the and yeah we can talk more after, you know, since we have an audience of diverse ages that

Carah Burrell [01:20:43] still believe in Santa Claus because he is real. And if that is one of you, welcome.

Listener Comments and Holiday Naming

John Dehlin [01:20:49] A couple really comments that I'm loving. Mark writes Yule Fest is a better name. So he's replacing the term Christmas.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:57] Yeah, things like that can with with Yule Fest.

John Dehlin [01:21:00] I love that Mark. Pat. Shout out to Pat. We love you, Pat. I'm having problems clicking. Pat writes My home is turning into Whoville this year. It brings a whimsical feeling to each day. Pat, will you send us photos? I want to see photos of Pat's Yule Fest Whoville decorations in in her home. Pat, we miss you here in Utah. John says he has a cat like Callahan that basically attacks all of his Christmas decor.

Carah Burrell [01:21:35] Yeah. What am I gonna do Decorate a Christmas tree that only has decorations halfway up so my son can't get them?

John Dehlin [01:21:41] What did we do with young kids? Did we put like a gate around the tree? What did we do? Do we only put decorations like higher up on the tree? I know we did something. We were always childproofing our home with our kids. Do you remember? You don't remember anyway.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:21:57] So decorations can stay. Customize them as you see fit. What are the other things we're categories of keeping Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:06] We kept festive food. Like food traditions. So like the breakfast that we always did or some of the treats for the time of year basically keep all the food.

John Dehlin [01:22:18] Right? We can keep all the food. There's no food that's too tainted. Does any food get tainted with.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:23] No, but you may want to try a little bit. Like I do feel like sometimes as you're breaking down one structure, you break down more than one structure. So you know, you may. You can edit out some of the more aspirational meals and kind of simplify as you wish.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] That's. That's a question I'm. I'm giving to our YouTube and Facebook audience. Is there any food Yuletide seasonal Christmas food that you have to get rid of after a faith crisis? Can you think of anything care like, I mean, green jello? Like what is. I just like what food is so Mormon that you've got to get rid of it over Christmas? I can't think of anything.

Carah Burrell [01:22:58] Plant further into the funeral potatoes. Are you kidding me? Eat my feelings more this time of year.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] So we're keeping green jello and funeral potatoes. We're keeping it.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:09] You can Also keep family traditions around that time of year that work for you. So if you go ice skating or if you read certain Christmas stories, I know my sophomore in college just told me, I'm going to come home and have you read me all the Christmas stories. Stories. So that tradition will stay this year, but, you know, keeping the family traditions that mean the most and are worth your energy and effort. So those are other things. Family gatherings, or let's just say social gatherings where it feels good to you. So one thing we prioritized this year was, was time with our chosen family. Like, you want to keep those things in the holiday season that really, really work well for you.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] Let me, let me make sure I understand what you're saying. Into. The audience knows what you're saying. So you're saying there's family of origin, family of blood, and then you're saying family of choice, which are basically non family, that are like deep, close friends. And you're. You're basically saying spending time with. With dear beloved friends that may not be family, but that probably feel more like family should than sometimes family itself does. Is that what you mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:24:33] Yeah, I mean, just focusing on those things, the. The socializing that really meets your needs is how I would put it for the season, as opposed to like a ton of, like an office party or, you know, these huge parties that you can go to where maybe the connection is a little less gratifying or maybe that feels really festive to you, too, and that's great. I'm just saying do keep what works for you and cut out the things that kind of elicit strong emotions or become very disruptive to you.

Carah Burrell [01:25:06] Yeah, I like Ryan's comment. He's saying, I may be an exmo now, but funeral potatoes will remain a core belief.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] Love it. Yeah, love it.

Carah Burrell [01:25:14] Definitely keep that.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:14] First things first, people.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] And then we have a really serious question from Steve Holbrooke. Margi, what about fruitcakes? Yes or no? Margi, we need you to be our new prophet. Steve needs to know, thumbs up or thumbs down on the fruitcake. You never liked fruitcake. For me, it was always a no.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:30] And I hope this isn't a relationship breaker, but for me, it's not even hard because, like, you're having. You're having a cake experience and then you've got like a chew gummy all of a sudden, where you've got the flour and you got the chew going. It's confusing, nor is disorienting. It's just. It's a hard sell.

Carah Burrell [01:25:53] And then if it has rum in it, like this person.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:56] There are a lot of flavors. There are a lot of tests.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] Never had a testimony of fruitcake to begin with.

Carah Burrell [01:26:01] Basically good one.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:02] Isn't there a reason why it get passed around?

John Dehlin [01:26:05] Did you try.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:05] Did you really try that? The whole joke is that the fruitcake gets re gifted.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] Isn't that there's only. There's only one fruitcake in the world that just keeps getting.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:13] I feel like there's a deeper truth there.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] What about you, Carah? Yes or no to the fruitcake?

Carah Burrell [01:26:17] Oh, definitely no. No, no. I don't even like I am gonna be so controversial. Most controversial thing I said beside the death cult thing earlier is the fact that I don't even like pie because I don't like cooked fruit. And I've only met one other person in my life that doesn't like cooked fruit. And it was my young woman's leader and I was like, the church is true. I'm staying with you forever. So I don't like this cooked apples, this. This chewy gum fruit thing. What are we doing here, food scientists? Just back off.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] What I love. I'm gonna just say it though. Yes, you're right, Carah. The answer, the correct answer is no fruitcake. Ding, ding, ding. You are both right. You get to go on to the next round. I love banana nut bread with cheese. Cold, cold slices of cheddar cheese on my Christmas banana nut bread. And mom used to give me postum. Now it's just full on coffee. Sorry, everyone. Coffee with banana nut bread and slices of cheddar cheese. Rocks my world. That is my new supreme bean.

Carah Burrell [01:27:17] I know what I'm getting you for Christmas. Great. My Christmas shopping list. So much faster.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:22] Oh, and then, okay, the last thing we keep our.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] You gotta have walnuts in the banana bread. True or not true? Oh, true.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:29] I like it both ways.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] Okay. All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:33] Okay. And then last, the intentional gifts, we keep intentional gifting. Meaning, you know, we do observe some gift giving, but we are quite intentional about how. How we do that, how much we spend, what types of gifts we give. Right. So that has. That we have kept and so simplified.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] Like we said, we've simplified. We don't go all out crazy gifts to the roof.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:01] Yes. So this list is just meant to hopefully in this conversation as we go through these things, it's allowing you to have your own process for you to kind of look at your relationship with these things and to kind of see a little bit more clearly what. How you can kind of recreate this season, what you Want to eliminate what you want to keep. And now for my favorite section. That is last and that is what you want to add. And this is where it's fun and beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:28:35] I just have to say there are listeners that are questioning Carah's role on the podcast, knowing that she doesn't like pie. And I have to say, I don't think I've ever really reconsidered Carah's role on the podcast until finding out she doesn't like pie. What type of human doesn't like pie?

Carah Burrell [01:28:53] Can I have a slice of this podcast still? Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] Like, not even pecan pie with whipped cream.

Carah Burrell [01:28:59] No, it's good. I don't like the cooked fruit is what you were.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] Banana cream pie.

Carah Burrell [01:29:04] You weren't listening. Cooked fruit pies, John, you heard what you wanted to hear.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:07] So cherry. You're ready to get rid of cherry. Think peach.

Carah Burrell [01:29:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:11] Think apples.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] What about chocolate silk?

Carah Burrell [01:29:13] Yeah, that's fine.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] Okay. Just no cooked fruit.

Carah Burrell [01:29:15] No cooked fruit pies. Like cherry pie.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] So no apple pie.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:18] Tara, that was really close. Apparently.

Carah Burrell [01:29:19] That was really close.

John Dehlin [01:29:20] You dodged a bullet.

Carah Burrell [01:29:21] Yeah, he's crusty with me. I can do as many pie puns as I can.

John Dehlin [01:29:28] We better run from the pie puns or we'll get into our rated territory too, too fast. All right, Margi, part three is what to add.

What to Add to Your Holiday Celebrations

Margi Dehlin [01:29:36] Home stretch, people.

John Dehlin [01:29:37] Home stretch. How are we doing time codes?

Margi Dehlin [01:29:38] Are we hanging in there?

John Dehlin [01:29:39] What to add? Yeah. All right, let's do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:42] All right, Here is one of my favorite things that I have added, and that is what I alluded to in the beginning, which was celebrate seasons approach. So what that looks like. And by the way, I'm going to give. Is it where you attribute you Attribution? Attribution. This comes from someone. I think her name's my. Quillen Smith. She is known as the cozy minimalist. And so this is. This is from her books, her podcast. She talks about this quite a bit. So one thing that has brought me joy that I've added is to look at the season. Winter. And so at the beginning of kind of, I would say no, I'd say like mid November, what I start doing is I.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:32] I start noticing my senses, and I dress my home and my life for the season. So that's like, what do I want to smell? So normally I'll bring in. I have some diffusers, I bring in candles, like what my home will smell like.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:48] And so. And it changes from season to season. So, like, for winter, I tend to bring in a bit more pine, orange, clove, some Peppermint sometimes. So I change out my dish soap and my. My surface spray so that even that smells. So what you want to smell, you go for senses. So then what do I want to taste in the winter? I love making more stews, more soups. Sometimes I bake a little bit more.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:20] So what you love to taste during the winter season, then you have what you want to see. So that may be heading out in nature and seeing, you know, more natural landscape. That may be actually the lighting that you. I love candles. I love twinkly lights. So setting up like cozy, soft, light areas. So what you want to see, what you want to feel. A lot of cozy, soft blankets, for example. So like softness or warmth there.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:57] What else? What's the last one? Touch, sight, smell, taste, touch. Yeah, I feel like I've been through taste. Another thing of taste is like introducing a lot of warming drinks or warming. So like coffee or chai or teas or.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:18] So that allows for. Oh, what you hear. So another thing that you can do is make a soundtrack for winter. And my current soundtrack for winter is December by George Winston. Because I grew up listening to it when we would go to Vermont oftentimes and we were on the lake that would be playing. And so it's really nostalgic for me. It's not particularly Christmassy, so sometimes I infuse Christmas music in with that during this time of year. But in January and February, I can do George Winston in winter. George Winston, December. A lot of instrumental. And what it does is it creates this haven for you of these touches of winter.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:58] Oh, I also forgot to talk about, like bringing in pine boughs or nature from the outside into the inside. And this lasts. This can last through February. And so whereas for many people, they feel that dip after Christmas because all the glow and sparkle gets packed away. In this case, most of my decorations stay. And not in a cluttery way.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:25] I don't feel like our house is cluttered. It's just. It's in a really beautiful. It's. It makes me feel kind of calm and connected and it's special. So that's been really working for me, something I've added. So add a little winter to your home, to your life, to your experience.

John Dehlin [01:33:47] I love it. Okay. And other so. So taste, smell, sight. Yeah, you are really about the senses.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:59] I am. I find that for me, they connect me to the present moment. They take me out of my head. So it's a good thing for a brain like mine.

John Dehlin [01:34:08] You also really, really love the. The smells of Winter and fall. Right. Like when we go on walks. You're always commenting.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:17] I do. But I also love spring and summer. They've got great smells too. And this is the thing, you get to change it. So come March, new. I mean, it's. It's fun. It can be fun.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:33] So that's something I've added to this season is that approach.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] Yeah. You've always got these little essential oil things.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:43] Diffusers.

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Diffusers. Pump, pumping. Oh my God. Into the.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:47] They are my jam right now. I am all over them. Anyway, it's the little.

John Dehlin [01:34:52] Not an endorsement of Doterra.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:56] So that's an addition. Do you want to share an additional?

John Dehlin [01:35:00] Yeah. A lot of people. Carrie, you can tell me if I'm wrong. A lot of people are adding beverages. So a lot of people are saying tequila wine. I think Mark Fuentes is saying cinnamon horchata. Lot of beverage recommendations.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:16] I'm going to look this through. I love hot drinks. I am like. So I'll have to look through this list later.

John Dehlin [01:35:23] Yeah. So many good suggestions are coming in.

Carah Burrell [01:35:27] Spike the eggnog.

John Dehlin [01:35:28] Eggnog, right.

Carah Burrell [01:35:29] Yeah. Somebody had a great comment that you make sure not to buy pre spiked eggnog because they don't use high enough quality alcohol. So these two people don't drink. I do. So I just want to make sure that the marmous stories listeners, if that is what you're into, it's a good life hack.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:45] A good tip.

Carah Burrell [01:35:46] I want to make sure that our listeners take away from today.

John Dehlin [01:35:48] Imani is saying Moscow Mules. I think my daughter Maya taught me what that is. That's. There's vodka for sure. Well, it's vodka. I think there's lime. Is there some type of seltzer or soda water in a Moscow mule?

Carah Burrell [01:36:06] Ginger beer.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Is it ginger beer?

Margi Dehlin [01:36:08] Oh, are you thinking of the lime drink that we get?

John Dehlin [01:36:11] I'm hopeless.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:11] When it comes out our book club.

John Dehlin [01:36:13] Like our listeners want to tell us what's in.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:15] They give us virgin everything that they can that they're drinking. They are the nicest humans on the planet.

John Dehlin [01:36:21] Anyway, apparently alcohol is something to really embrace and enjoy.

Carah Burrell [01:36:26] Apparently alcohol is something to embrace and apparently people drink it around the holidays and apparently you guys know what I'm referencing. Nope. All right, listeners, we got it. Go on.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:37] All right, what else should we add?

John Dehlin [01:36:39] Okay, so

Carah Burrell [01:36:42] you.

John Dehlin [01:36:42] We've got on our list here intention and new meaning. What do you mean by that?

Margi Dehlin [01:36:50] So this would be around reframing for you. What you would like this, this time

Carah Burrell [01:36:56] of year to mean for You.

John Dehlin [01:36:58] Yeah. So, like, a lot of people aren't big on the. On the religious stuff, but. But so an example would be the seasonal stuff or the yuletide stuff.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:06] So the winter could be that for

Carah Burrell [01:37:08] you

Margi Dehlin [01:37:11] or a meaning for you might be around giving that. That. So it's really about people kind of finding new meaning or new intention for them for this time of year. For us, it's clearly. I feel like we've got a couple layers where for us, it's around gatherings. We try to include those that we love and doing some festive things with them this time of year, some. Some traditions that allow for that gathering to happen and feel festive. And then definitely seasons. So definitely amidst that, creating a little more space for processing, reading, slowing down, getting out in nature. We love snowshoeing and kind of doing all the winter outdoor stuff this time. Fire. Yeah, Time by the fire. Watching movies and shows.

John Dehlin [01:38:04] I think the meta point here is you don't have to, like, you can still love the holiday season, the Christmas season. You don't have to gut it of all its meaning and then be sad and hate it. All you got to do is whatever meaning you scoop out and get rid of. Take the time, take advantage of the festive holiday season to infuse it with your own meaning and have that be very personal for you, for your partner, for your. Your children, your loved ones. Create that meaning that you want it to have and then go on and doubly enjoy the holiday season because it's got new meaning that fits you. Is that what you're saying?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:47] Yeah, I love that as, like, the empowered stance. And I want to also say, like, it can be really difficult. It can be really difficult if you're in a place right now of acute loss, which I know some people who are, or if it's your first year, the holidays, after a divorce, and it's like you don't even know if you're going to have your children with you for Christmas this year. And, like, it can get very messy very quickly. So I would. I would also say, you know, if you're in that grief space, if you're in that loss space, also taking it easy and creating space to show up for yourself and do those comforting, grounding things, you know, to kind of be where you are.

John Dehlin [01:39:32] Yeah. Love it. Okay. Something else you have. I think this is a bit repetitive. You talk about adding boundaries. We talked about also in terms of just saying no and what you eliminate. But boundaries are essential for healthy relationships. We've got entire episodes on The Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. I think that are dedicated to this idea of how boundaries don't mean get away. I don't love you. Boundaries mean I love you. Here are limits to our relationship so that we can have a happy, healthy relationship. But good, good fences make good neighbors. Good boundaries make good family and friend relationships. Is that what you're saying there, Margi?

Setting Boundaries and Being Intentional

Margi Dehlin [01:40:15] Yeah. And really giving yourself permission to boundary this year when where it actually does feel good to you or your family, that that can be very key to your healing. And it also shows your children how it's done. So, again, whether you go to that family gathering is a question you get to ask this year. How long you want to spend at that family gathering, if you want to do something in place of that family gathering or in addition to. So really feeling like you can advocate for yourself. Will I feel like, be helpful as you kind of move into this season of, you know, all the family things.

John Dehlin [01:40:57] I love it. Okay. And anything else, Carah, that you're seeing in the chats around, what to add, anything else you're seeing. I didn't care. Have you added anything? Have you and Aaron added anything to your Christmas holiday season?

Carah Burrell [01:41:17] No, but what I am taking away is I like what you guys are saying about, you know, being intentional about this holiday season. Instead of just like, what I normally do is just like, grit and bear it and try to get through it as fast as possible, but actually taking time to pause and enjoy it. And that takes work to actually find the traditions of our fathers, you could say, and actually piece apart what I want to take from that and what actually feels. Feels right to me and make it a more personal holiday tradition for this year. So it won't be something that I do need to grit and bear it through.

Carah Burrell [01:41:49] So that's kind of what I'm taking from what you guys are saying. And other than that, again, my children are so crazy and wild. And my husband's at home right now with the three youngins. And it's really hard to get anything kind of. It's hard to establish any traditions because there's lots of crying and fighting and just, like, wildness. So I gotta figure out how to do what I just said, but also mix it in with a family of young kids who also have needs and wants and are just developmentally not at the stage where they can actually let mom just, like, sip her spiked eggnog and have a night to herself.

Carah Burrell [01:42:24] That's not gonna happen, but I wish it could. So I have to find the way to balance all of these ideas in my head.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:29] That's right. That's right. That's so important too. So I'm glad that you brought that up because I think, you know, we clearly are in a stage of life where our kids are older. And I remember what it was like with the kids being much younger and our traditions looked much different.

Carah Burrell [01:42:45] Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:45] I mean, really, it was like the 30, the 20 minute videos. What is it like Rudolph with popcorn and everyone gets their favorite treat. And if that went down, we were like, whoa, we saw.

Carah Burrell [01:42:55] We did it.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:55] We did it this tonight.

Carah Burrell [01:42:56] We did something.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:57] Or, you know, or reading a book together or it's like small wins. Small wins as opposed to like that. So that's back to that expectation thing. But I hear you. I hear you with that, honestly. So the last thing I was going to mention that for the ad for this year, which is a big shift for us, is we will be adding a new tradition of celebrating the winter solstice this year. So traditionally, the.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] You're not even wanting to call it Christmas anymore. Is that. Am I. Do I have that right or not?

Margi Dehlin [01:43:32] Well, the winter solstice isn't Christmas. We're doing it on the 21st. So it's not Christmas. It's a different day. And it's. It's basically bringing our kids together for a dinner where in the longest night of the year, the. The day, the shortest day that we're gonna celebrate. You know, the analogy of amidst the. The darkest night that we gather together, we're going to light candles, we're going to have a meal, and we will open a gift or two, and that will be our celebration. Only because our kids are old enough now to kind of say, we don't really get the whole Christmas thing. Let's do our own thing and let's have it be completely something separate.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:16] And we actually really love winter solstice and the idea of celebrating that. So we're going to try that. And that is. That's to bring up a key point that these things will change and evolve as you, as your family evolves or your partnership evolves or you evolve. And so this is something that you can come back to each year and see kind of if anything major has changed or if you want to make any major additions or. Yeah, but that is a major ad this year replacement for.

John Dehlin [01:44:51] Another thing I think we added at one point was hikes, where every Christmas Day we would do a family hike where everybody got their boots on and we went out and did a nature hike and I think there's some people in the comments that have said, yeah, adding nature hikes has been a really valuable.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:07] I love family activity. I love that idea. One, one thing that we learned from our coach, Liz Dalton, with our family that has been very, very helpful, having really individuated children, differentiated children, is that we give. And this would not work for a one year old or probably even like a five year old, but it would probably for a middle kind of childhood. To teen is just invitations. We, it's this idea. We did hikes for many, many years and then we started having backlash with kids that were like, I don't love the same things you do. I love to snowboard, but I don't love to hike.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:52] I love to. And so on some level, as our kids have been teens, young adults, is we give in for the invitations for things, but we don't force our family togetherness. That's just something for us. We were trying to heal from kind of some of our enmeshment pattern model behaviors. And that was one thing she recommended. And it has been amazingly healing for our family. And so our ideal now is not necessarily that all of our families together for everything we choose to do. It's more that our kids feel like they can advocate for themselves, do what's best for them, and that for whoever shows up at whatever time, it's really beautiful and they want to be there.

John Dehlin [01:46:41] Love it.

Carah Burrell [01:46:44] Would you mind if I read a super chat? Just wanted to say thank you for the donation to Cynthia Smith, who wrote thank you so much for comments. Our family is trying to negotiate Christmas without bringing up religion. So difficult this time of year. Cynthia, I feel you on that one. Merry Christmas to you all. Thanks for the super chat. And if anyone else wants to donate, now is the time to type in a little comment and we're going to try to keep reading as many as we can.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:12] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:47:12] Love it. Okay, this is so good. And again, I want to highlight for our listeners the fact that before we even aired this episode, we went out to Instagram and Facebook on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page and the Mormon Stories Podcast Instagram page shared a little image and said, hey everyone, what are the hardest parts about Christmas and what have you done to make Christmas better after a faith crisis? And there are a ton of really good ideas. And so, Carah, we're going to include in the show notes links to Instagram and to Facebook so that you can go through and read all the good ideas.

John Dehlin [01:47:51] Also, just here in this YouTube chat and in the YouTube community feature, that we've just. Kerry, you've helped us discover there are a ton of really good ideas that we're not even able to air. So if you're looking for just a really good library of ideas, I just want to let everybody know, go to the show notes of this episode and click on these links and start going through the comments. You'll find a lot of great things. Right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:48:18] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks everyone for participating. And Margi said earlier when we were getting started that like part of Mormon stories and all of this is to build community. And if our listeners just like stay in their own boxes and we're just helping you one on one, that would be one nice thing. But if you can take ideas that have helped you and that you can interact with the other people in the comments in the chat and that we can just build more and more online community that way, that's just a huge bonus. So take the time to do that.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] I love it.

Pagan Roots of Christmas Symbols

Margi Dehlin [01:48:43] Did we want to highlight a comment or two?

John Dehlin [01:48:45] Yeah, so. Well, I, Karen, I went and highlighted a few questions and comments. I'm going to read a few that I highlighted just for our listeners and for you guys. And Carrie, you can jump in with anything. People are commenting or texting now. But some of these that I just. There's so many good ones. But Laura Jalen writes realizing that the symbols from Christmas were, were originally pagan. So this is something that I was thinking about. I don't know a lot about this, but apparently when monotheistic, judo, Judeo Christian kind of as, as Judeo Christian monotheism ascended with Moses and with the Israelites and then with Jesus, paganism got kind of outlawed.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] All paganism was, was just appreciating nature. So in a way, Margi, what you're advocating for is a deep millennials long human tradition that actually predated the Judeo Christian stuff that many people are throwing off. So in some sense you're actually saying return to. Return to a love and appreciation and a connection with nature. The word pagan has been vilified, but I think that's all it really means. Now I'm not saying let's all become pagans, or maybe I am, let's all become pagans. But Laura says realizing that the symbols from Christmas were originally pagan so we can remove the Christ from Christmas and still celebrate the same holidays, we're actually getting closer to our heritage, not abandoning it.

John Dehlin [01:50:18] That's what Laura writes. Rhonda writes, holidays for me are about quality time with family. It started as a pagan holiday where they Celebrate the winter solstice. The tree represents life returning. I have loved that meaning so much. It must also be the Viking in me. And that's an important point that in some ways. Tell me if I'm wrong. Carah and Margi Christians stole symbolism from pagan traditions. As I understand it, the Christmas tree is not an originally Jesus thing. It's a pagan tradition that got carried forward. So you don't have to throw your Christmas tree away. You can embrace your Christmas tree. And if you want to de Christianify your Christmas tree or other holiday things, you should feel free to because it was actually Christianity that co opted a lot of these pagan symbols, not the other way around. Is that right?

Carah Burrell [01:51:17] Yeah. And I think that leads into a question from Sarah that I wanted to read that said, I'm a recent apostate and I'm finding that I'm having a hard time redefining why Christmas is important to me now. What am I going to tell my daughter about why we celebrate Christmas? Is it possible to celebrate Christmas in a totally secular way? And I think a lot of the things that you just broke down about where Christmas came from is a great, you know, starting place.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] So yeah, it's kind of like what do we tell our kids? Well, we can do a little history reading. We can learn about the pagan traditions that preceded Judeo Christianity, teach our kids about that. And we're teaching our kids history and we're connecting them with their ancestors in a new and deeply meaningful way where it's not about just throwing out and killing tradition. Maybe it's about reconnecting with an even more primitive and nature based holiday tradition. Are we being repetitive here?

Margi Dehlin [01:52:16] Well, I love that idea and I, and I, I also think too with what we were talking about with regard to, you know, what meaning or intention you want to choose for yourself for the season, that can be the driver forward for you and your family as to how then what traditions show up in honoring that intention and purpose or meaning. So what traditions are built around that, you know, how you want to kind of show up, how you want to decorate and kind of these things that we went over today that can be kind of your North Star that points you forward and kind of drives that value forward. So I just see so much possibility for you.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] Honestly, Carrie, you just highlighted a comment JC wrote a true winter solstice restoration. So Mormons are, Mormons are used to Mormonism as being the restoration of all things. What if the secularization of Christmas for some is the restoration of a pagan holiday season? I like it mind blowing.

John Dehlin [01:53:31] The true restoration of all things. No. Nothing against our Christian listeners and viewers. Okay. Cecilia writes, the first year after waking up was the hardest. I got rid of all the Jesus references except one nativity from Kenya where everyone is black and the three kings look like three queens. I love it. I've embraced my ancestors Irish and Swedish solstice customs and created new traditions. I'm six years post Mormon and have found a way. You make the winter season fun. There are lots of yummy beverages to get in the spirit of yule. Cecilia, you're so cool. Margi and I want to meet you. So reach out.

John Dehlin [01:54:15] We want to meet you. Your Christmas vision inspires us. What do you think? Margi, you want to meet Cecilia? Margi, have I over committed you? Margaret doesn't want to meet Cecilia.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:25] Does sound cool. I just think that's really funny.

John Dehlin [01:54:28] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:29] I really like your comment.

John Dehlin [01:54:30] Margi doesn't want to meet you.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:32] Cecilia, Margi and I are gonna meet you.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] All right. Cecilia, I want to meet you. Margi doesn't want to meet you. Is that right, Margi? Is that what you just said?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:41] I am never coming on this podcast again.

Carah Burrell [01:54:43] Starting a new holiday tradition. Embarrassing Margi on live broadcast.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] No, embracing Cecilia is what I'm doing. Welcoming Cecilia into our family.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:53] What's.

John Dehlin [01:54:53] What's more holiday festive than that?

Carah Burrell [01:54:55] I want. I'll go with you to her house if she's got that cool Kenyan nativity set. I want to see the three queens.

John Dehlin [01:55:00] Maybe Aaron would want it. Maybe Aaron would want to join Margi. You know you can come or not.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:04] Wow, you're so meaning driven.

Carah Burrell [01:55:06] Getting out of the car.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:07] I support you arm in arm.

Carah Burrell [01:55:08] We're going to see.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:10] Here we go.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] We're going to see

Carah Burrell [01:55:13] Little Women.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:14] Here we go.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] All right, another comment from Stacy and then car. You can tell us if there's any final comments that you're dying to share. Stacy writes, we started celebrating Christmas around the world where we each pick a country and dedicate a day in December to celebrate the holidays like they do in that country. Within reason. We learn a few of their basic customs and beliefs and mostly just eat their food, which is critical. The first year I even chose Israel and we learned about Hanukkah. This will be our fourth year and it's been really fun with the kids. Super delicious and still leaves us able to celebrate American Christmas and all the traditions with our families, but with more of an outsider's perspective rather than the literal this is the truth perspective. Well, now I'm torn Between wanting to meet Cecilia and wanting to meet Stacy,

Margi Dehlin [01:56:17] you can dedicate all of January and just meet the peoples.

John Dehlin [01:56:22] All the people that you.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:56:24] Okay. Marty's more of an introvert. I'm more of an extrovert. Can you tell audience. Well, these. These comments are examples of the brilliant comments you're going to find on Instagram, the Mormon Stories podcast. Instagram, and on the Mormon Stories podcast Facebook group page, and in the YouTube comments here on this live stream and in the community. Carah, any final things you want to add to what Margi has provided us as an amazing episode?

Carah Burrell [01:56:58] No, it would only be more sarcasm and puns that I. That's all I have to offer right now. You got to give me something to Elliot first. But I wanted to read this final super chat. Thanks for the super chat from Catherine. That said, this is the episode I didn't know I needed. It feels so right for me to think about my alignment with nature and sink into that. Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] Oh, beautiful. Margi, you gave Catherine the episode she didn't know she needed and care. You gave us the Christmas sweater and braids that we didn't know we needed.

Carah Burrell [01:57:34] Here she is, Miss America.

John Dehlin [01:57:39] And, Margi, you always bring such a lovely spirit and soul, wisdom and groundedness. I'm so lucky to be married to you.

Carah Burrell [01:57:48] And you are.

John Dehlin [01:57:50] And I'm even doubly lucky to be able to have you come on the podcast.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:53] Oh, thank you. I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:57:58] Why were you pointing at Carah?

Margi Dehlin [01:57:59] Oh, because I thought you were gonna say. And because you're gonna be great.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] No, it was all about you, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:05] But do you want to add that Carah's amazing?

John Dehlin [01:58:08] Is she really?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:08] Yeah, Carah's amazing. And you're amazing too, babe.

Carah Burrell [01:58:11] Oh, I'm grateful for you.

John Dehlin [01:58:13] It's this. It's this mutual circle.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:15] It's a love fest. Let's do it. Let's bear testimony of each other. Each other's all right. Did you. Did you. How was this episode for you? Surviving.

Carah Burrell [01:58:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:25] Are you gonna go from bridge?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:26] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:58:26] Humbug. Scrooge. Are we turning.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:29] Wait, that's.

John Dehlin [01:58:30] Are we improving Carah's Christmas joy? If we fixed it for you.

Carah Burrell [01:58:33] If we fixed.

John Dehlin [01:58:34] Did we fix Christmas for you?

Carah Burrell [01:58:36] Christmas absolutely fixed right now. John Dehlin got to work, and in the course of two hours, I'm a new woman, so.

Closing Reflections and Encouragement

John Dehlin [01:58:43] Christmas woman. We're just saying Christmas. We weren't trying to fix all of you. Just the Christmas, the broken screwje.

Carah Burrell [01:58:49] That was the most important part that needed fixing.

John Dehlin [01:58:51] Part of you.

Carah Burrell [01:58:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:52] That needed Fixing this month, texting my husband.

Carah Burrell [01:58:55] Turn on the TV so I can say I love you on live broadcast so that this whole Dylan love fest. I need to have a include Aaron. I know.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:03] Do it. And it's recorded.

Carah Burrell [01:59:04] I know.

John Dehlin [01:59:05] What about Callahan? Do you want to say anything to Callahan?

Carah Burrell [01:59:07] I'd love him too much. I would just take up the next hour talking about how much I love my one year old.

John Dehlin [01:59:10] And your daughters.

Carah Burrell [01:59:11] They're great. They're adequate. They have some improvements to make. I will not hold any kind of like, naughty nice list against them. I'm trying not to. I don't be that mom, but I am like, I swear to gosh, if you don't, My gosh, you're getting nothing for Christmas. That's right.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:30] Gotta use what you have.

John Dehlin [01:59:32] Yeah, I gotta share. I gotta share. Trev. Treva Nun's comment. Can you share that my mouse isn't working? Freaking care.

Carah Burrell [01:59:38] Get a room, you three.

John Dehlin [01:59:39] Right? Oh, get a room, you three. Is it that bad?

Carah Burrell [01:59:45] Is it that bad? It's. We just. We. We want this room to include the other 197 of you that are watching right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:53] That's right.

Carah Burrell [01:59:54] We love you.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:55] That's right. You're in on this love.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] It's the Mormon Stories audience that we want to hug, invite you into our home. We want all of you to sit under our fireplace, sip our wassail, eat our banana bread with cheese, and cuddle in a totally appropriate, non predatory kind of way.

Carah Burrell [02:00:17] Let's cut that part out.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:18] Maybe some type of edited version of that could work.

John Dehlin [02:00:24] Merry happy holidays. Happy Yuletide, everybody. This has been a holiday gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis thrive episode sponsored by the one, the only, Margi Dehlin.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:37] Thanks, guys.

Carah Burrell [02:00:38] You're the best. Really, really.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:39] Thanks for being here, everyone.

John Dehlin [02:00:41] And if you need more Margi or Natasha, hope for goodness. There's an entire podcast dedicated to healing and growth after Mormonism. It's called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. And you can go to mormonfaithcrisis.com and consume it if you have challenges. Speaking with believing family and friends, coming out, grieving your anger at Mormonism, figuring out new holidays, new traditions. There's 70 hours of free coaching, plus an entire weekend retreat that you can check out that we've provided for free for everyone who can't afford coaching or therapy. It's what you need. So check out mormonfaithcrisis.com for all your faith crisis needs. Right, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:01:28] That's right. We are sending our best wishes For a holiday that reflects you a little bit more this year.

John Dehlin [02:01:35] I love it. Carah, any final words?

Show Notes, Donations, and Upcoming Events

Carah Burrell [02:01:38] Yeah. And I just want to let people know that when we talk about show notes and time codes and things, tell

John Dehlin [02:01:43] us what that is.

Carah Burrell [02:01:43] Show notes?

John Dehlin [02:01:44] Yeah, and time codes.

Carah Burrell [02:01:45] So anytime we reference something like John just referenced the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis, we're doing our best to make sure that those links are directly in the description of the YouTube video. And then if you're listening on the podcast, that they're also in the description there, or if you found this episode through the Mormon Stories website, that they're also. There'll be just hyperlinked links that'll take you directly to those places. So we try our best to get those up within around 24 hours, maybe 48 hours. So I'm making an extra strong push to have the show notes that we mentioned in the description.

Carah Burrell [02:02:16] So if you're listening live right now and you're like, where are these show notes, Carol, what gives? Just give me a couple minutes and I can drop those in. And then as well as time codes that if you want to scan back to certain different parts of it, you can look in the description to the different part portions of the time codes, read a little description, and then just jump to the different sections of the YouTube video that you want to jump to. And that just, you know, quiet. Some of the complaints of people saying that these videos are a little bit too long. It's because we try to have them chopped up a little bit so that you can, you know, know exactly where you want to go in the different spots of that.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:48] That.

Carah Burrell [02:02:49] That tried to. Tries to get the information as accessible as possible. I hope.

John Dehlin [02:02:54] I love it.

Carah Burrell [02:02:54] I just want to put that. That. That wisdom that I dropped now, you know.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] Yeah. And it's. It's giving season right now. It's giving Tuesday. Today we have started a couple giving donation campaigns on Facebook if any of you want to donate. Facebook has offered to match donations today at some. With some limits. But regardless, if you want to support our Giving Tuesday, and Giving Tuesday lasts for a couple weeks, we would love your support because the way that we can afford to do time codes, the way that we can afford to do show notes, the way that we can afford to have the amazing care Bernie URL with us and Margi is through your donations. So that what do we do with.

John Dehlin [02:03:42] With an increased amount of donations, we are able to get more support to make our programming even better. So thank you for your donations and it's a great Day Giving Tuesday to become a donor to the Open Stories foundation of Mormon Stories. If you're not, go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Or you can go to the Mormon Stories podcast page or my personal personal wall on Facebook and donate through Giving Tuesday. We really need your support. I was telling KARA we had 18 people cancel their monthly donations last month and only 13 people sign up. So we actually were at a deficit this month in terms of subscriptions.

John Dehlin [02:04:19] If that continues, the podcast eventually potentially goes away. So we need always, every month people to sign up and become donors or one of us goes away. Carah, is it if. Is it you or me who's going away if the money goes away?

Carah Burrell [02:04:33] Definitely you.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] It's me.

Carah Burrell [02:04:34] Yeah, me and Margi.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] Because I'm old. You and Mark, you're taking over. Are you ready to take over?

Carah Burrell [02:04:42] No, but I also, I want to take this opportunity to shout out to Trev who helps us with time codes on older episodes as well. And that's just a volunteer. And yeah, Trev's amazing. He's somewhere in Europe. What country are you from? Trevor, let me know. Belgium.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:55] Thank you, Trev.

Carah Burrell [02:04:56] Anyway, thanks Trev.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] Thanks, Trev. All right, Steve Holbrook just said I donated earlier to get that two times offer from Facebook. Great episode. Loved watching live. Love you guys. Love you, Steve. Let's have you on Mormon Stories podcast sometime, you and Chris, to tell your story. You guys are awesome. Shout out to the Utah Valley Post Mormon community and to Thrive, if you need a community, thrivebeyondreligion.com is a great place place to find a community or to create one in your local area. There's going to be Thrive Day. What is it?

Carah Burrell [02:05:27] Thrive, the New Year's Eve gala.

John Dehlin [02:05:30] There's a New Year's G New Year's Gala. But also Carah, there's in January, January 22, there's going to be like somewhere between 11 and 22 local Thrive events all around the world.

Carah Burrell [02:05:44] Do you.

John Dehlin [02:05:44] Are you prepared to talk about that, Carah?

Carah Burrell [02:05:46] I am prepared. Prepared as long as this Internet works. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:49] There's Thrive Unite January, Thrive Unite January 22nd.

Carah Burrell [02:05:53] And if you go to thrivebeyondreligion.com you can look for there's in Alberta, Phoenix, Provo, Bristol, uk, Seattle, Costa Mesa, California, Houston, Texas, Sacramento, which I will be speaking at Las Vegas, Idaho Falls, Atlanta and Portland. So if you go find the Thrive Unite link which will be in the show notes very shortly, like I mentioned, you can go and attend something local in your city and meet up with other People.

John Dehlin [02:06:26] And I think we're having a Thrive in Alpine, Highland, Lehigh as well. A Thrive Unite Day. I think it's going to be a combination retreat slash Thrive Unite experience that weekend as well for those of you in the Salt Lake area. And you can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and sign up the idea that Clint Martin had, who's the he and Jenny kind of lead Thrive. The idea behind it is instead of having everyone always come to, like, a Thrive Day where everyone throughout the world comes to the Salt palace, why not have local Thrive events wherever you live?

John Dehlin [02:07:00] And you can bring Carah, bring Margi, bring me, bring Natasha, bring Tiffany Rowe, whoever you want. Bring cool speakers to where you are and build local community. That's the idea of Thrive. That's the idea of Thrive beyond religion. That's the idea of Thrive Unite. And Clint wants there to be at least 22 thrives in cities throughout the world. And we need about nine more. So if any of you want to start like, we want one in Denver, I think there should be one in the Midwest. I think New York should have one. Atlanta should have one. Florida, like, we need more Thrive Unites. So all you got to do is email clintriveondreligionmail.com Tell him you want to host a local Thrive Unite on January 22.

John Dehlin [02:07:43] He can help you find speakers. I think Idaho Falls wants a Thrive Unite, so. So please reach out to Clint and we'll help you set up a Thrive event and we'll make it great. Yeah. Is that enough public service announcements or do we need more?

Carah Burrell [02:08:00] I just want to plug the New Year's Eve gala because it's a double oh seven theme. And I'm going to dress up because you get to dress up. Best dress style. And it's Thursday, December 30th, at the Provo, like the Utah Valley Convention Center. So it's another big event that they're putting on. And you can get tickets at the Thrive website as well. So there's going to be casino games, cocktails, music, dancing, and all around. Just like an amazing fun time. So watch me refashion this really popular sweater into, like, a ball gown. So see what I come up with.

John Dehlin [02:08:33] And for the haters out there, Thrive is a money loser nobody profits off of. Thrive, the last Thrive Day event lost like, 20 grand that Clinton Jenny Martin funded. Nobody's on the take with Thrive. Our goal is to lose money, but lose as little as possible. If we charge anything, it's always just to pay for the venue, to pay for the food that we feed you, pay for the speakers that come. Why are you laughing? Margi, why are you laughing?

Margi Dehlin [02:09:00] No reason.

John Dehlin [02:09:01] Was there a little passive aggressiveness there?

Carah Burrell [02:09:03] She was thinking about how cool my dress is going to look when she sees it.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:08] Just Joy.

Carah Burrell [02:09:09] Just the joy, Carah.

John Dehlin [02:09:11] Anyway, Thrive is about you. It's about building community, helping you heal and grow. No sinister profit motives at all. And finally, again, thank you for your support of Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. Please become a monthly donor through MormonStories.org or however you want to donate. We take Venmo Mormon Stories Podcast. Venmo just. We need your support. So please keep supporting us. And Margi, Carah, Gerardo, Brooklyn, and all the Mormon Stories staff will be here for weeks, months, and years to come. So thanks, everybody. Happy Holidays. Happy Festivus. Happy Yuletide. Happy Winter Solstice. Happy Winter, Festive Pagan. What you do? Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Happy New Year. Happy Kwanzaa. Am I leaving anything out?

Carah Burrell [02:10:04] You said Festivus, right?

John Dehlin [02:10:06] Yep. Happy sweater year.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:10] Happy winter.

John Dehlin [02:10:11] Happy winter. Thanks, everybody. Love you guys. And Margi, we hope to have you back soon for another episode of Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis slash Thrive with Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:22] Thank you. I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:10:23] Thanks for joining us.

Carah Burrell [02:10:24] Thanks to you both, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:25] And thanks to the audience for their amazing comments.

John Dehlin [02:10:28] And Carah, thanks to you.

Carah Burrell [02:10:29] I had the most fun I've ever had on an episode today. Let me just say, fun wise, tears streaming to my face, Joy. And then I get to be with two of my favorite people in my favorite sweater and with you amazing people. This is a really fun episode. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:42] Can you believe they pay us to do this?

Carah Burrell [02:10:44] You. You get paid?

John Dehlin [02:10:46] Well, barely. No, I get paid. I get paid. Great. Yeah, we're working on paying you great. Are we? How are we doing?

Carah Burrell [02:10:51] We're doing good. We're doing just fine.

John Dehlin [02:10:52] All right, we'll keep working on that. All right, everybody. Love you guys. Thanks for everything. Enough silliness for now. Thanks, Margi. You're beautiful and strong and wise. We love you. And see you guys all again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye, everybody.

Carah Burrell [02:11:09] Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.