Ten years ago I interviewed WordPerfect co-founder and philanthropist Bruce Bastian, wherein we discussed his life growing up as gay Mormon boy in Idaho, his years at WordPerfect, his journey “coming out” as a gay Mormon father in the 1990s, and his early efforts to support LGBTQ rights.
Since this first interview, Bruce became even more active in fighting for LGBTQ equality in the United States, continuing his involvement with the Human Rights Campaign and supporting LGBTQ equality in Utah – all of which meaningfully contributed to the legalization of same-sex marriage in the United States in 2015.
Recently I sat down again with Bruce to record a history of these past 10 years from his perspective. I hope you enjoy!
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Bruce Bastian
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Bruce Bastian's Background
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 18, 2020, and we have a real treat in store for you today. Some of you who have been longtime Mormon Stories fans or who have perused the back catalog will remember that about 10 years ago I interviewed a super important guest on Mormon Stories. His name is Bruce Bastian. And we'll be giving you a quick review of Bruce's story. But for those who don't know, Bruce Bastian is a well known philanthropist. He's the founder of WordPerfect, which was a super important software company in Utah and in the world back in the day, back in my day. And Bruce has been a really important force in LGBT rights in Utah, in the United States. And so much has happened in the past 10 years. Things have happened in Utah for LGBT rights, things have happened in the United States in terms of the legalization of same sex marriage, things have happened in the Mormon Church, and most importantly, things have happened in Bruce's life. And so we're going to be covering all that today, including, you know, things that have led to Bruce having what, by his report has led to his happiest life or state ever. And who doesn't want to hear about that? So that's what we're going to be talking about today. So without any further ado, Bruce Bastian, it is so fun to have you back on Mormon Stories podcast.
Bruce Bastian [00:01:41] It's great. I've always been so grateful and proud of those first episodes that we did together 10 years ago.
John Dehlin [00:01:50] Has it really been 10 years? Is that possible?
Bruce Bastian [00:01:52] I think so, yeah. From my recollection, it's been 10 years. It seems in some ways forever. And it seems like yesterday all at the same time.
John Dehlin [00:02:01] Yeah. So the last interview was epic. So those of you who really, really want to learn about a fascinating human, a fascinating story, a really important story, historic story for Mormonism, for LGBT rights, just for humanity. Just pause this interview. Google Bruce Bastian Mormon stories. Go back and watch the several first hours of his interview. We go into depth about his life, about growing up in Idaho, his mission, his time at byu, working in the marching band, his founding of Word Perfect. You know how he comes out as a Mormon back when it wasn't cool to come out as a, as a gay Mormon, how that affected his marriage and his kids and his grandkids. What happened to Word Perfect? And then of course, his philanthropy that is just so well known here in Utah and across the United States. So if you want go Pause. Go. Watch that. But for those of you who just want the quick version, we're going to go ahead and start by doing sort of Bruce Bastian's life in 10 minutes. Is that a little bit intimidating, Bruce?
Bruce Bastian [00:03:09] No, no. I've done it in a lot less than 10 minutes.
John Dehlin [00:03:11] Okay, well, so for those who are new, the new generation, but millennials, et cetera, post millennials, they have no idea. Some of them will have no idea who you are. So let's bring us up to speed and then we'll go from there.
Bruce Bastian [00:03:24] I was born in Twin Falls, Idaho, which is a. I mean, when I was growing up, it was a big city, but it really is. It's not very big. It's south central Idaho. I was the fifth child of six, grew up in a pretty Mormon family. And Twin Falls, even though it's in Idaho, the LDS Church was quite prominent in the community and certainly in my life. After graduating in 1966, I went to BYU and have lived in Utah ever since. I was not a real devout member of the LDS Church when I did go to byu. In fact, the first year of my schooling, I didn't go to church once. I don't think you can get away with that now, but then you could. I did repent and go on a mission when I was 21, I served a mission in Italy, and I love Italy now. I was kind of not real keen on Italians when I was a missionary because I was trying to change them, and I've repented from that. Now I appreciate them and love them for the wonderful, crazy Italians that they are. I don't try to change them. After returning to byu, I had the opportunity to become the assistant director of the Cougar Marching Band. While the director was on sabbatical, he did not return to byu. So I got made the director of the Cougar Man.
John Dehlin [00:05:21] As a student?
Bruce Bastian [00:05:22] As a student. As a graduate student, yeah. And did that for five years on a graduate student salary, which, if you don't know, isn't much. I got fired from that. At the time I got asked to not return, I was already working on a master's degree in computer science and music combined. And I was doing 3D graphic animation to program the band maneuvers into a computer in such a way that band members could watch it and the computer would basically print out instructions. So I was doing that. And so when the music department told me I was not welcome there because I didn't have a PhD which they didn't offer, I went and finished my master's degree, but in computer science. And that's where I became close friends and colleague with Alan Ashton. We are the co founders of WordPerfect. That's a story. And if people really want to know the depth of that story, they should watch the first episodes of the Mormon stories.
John Dehlin [00:06:45] If I can just jump in really quick, I'll just say that everyone uses Microsoft Word now or Google Docs, you know, and the little word processor in Google Docs. But once upon a time, before Microsoft was huge, before Google Docs, if you wanted to do word processing, if you wanted to type, you know, term papers or essays or whatever you want to do, you used WordPerfect. And it wasn't just some local, regional, Utah thing. WordPerfect was the national, the international global leader in word processing software. And it came, it was, it was designed in Provo, in Orem by Bruce and his partner Alan Ashton. And it became, I mean, what were the, what were the revenues? What was the worth of WordPerfect? Maybe at its peak, if you remember
Bruce Bastian [00:07:30] when we, when we merged with Novell in 1994, the value of WordPerfect was between 1.1 and 1.3 billion. It was the number one word processing software in the world at that time. And it was running in several languages, many languages. We had offices all over the world. We had over 7,000 employees. So it was, in its day, it was really, it, it was really something.
John Dehlin [00:08:05] So when you think about, you know, now when you think about Amazon or Google or Microsoft, you know, the big Apple, it was, it was one of the major world players in its day.
Bruce Bastian [00:08:18] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:08:18] Along with, with Novell, along with Microsoft, Lotus.
Bruce Bastian [00:08:22] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:08:23] And it's a real, it's something nobody knows about or cares about now. But it was, to me, it just meant a lot. I worked for WordPerfect my senior year at BYU in 1993. So the merger happens with Novell, which, which I imagine kind of lowers your involvement somewhat in WordPerfect, what happens after that?
Bruce Bastian [00:08:43] So the merger at Novell, I basically stopped all day to day involvement with WordPerfect. I stayed on their board of directors until it became clear to me that they weren't really interested in what I thought about it. So, I mean, of course, going from a day to day, 110% with a company to zero. So my life was kind of in free fall for a bit. But that's when I started getting involved with philanthropic work. The first organization I donated to was the Utah AIDS Foundation. And I learned quickly that if you do, if you give money to an Organization, put your name behind it, because that's important. I appreciate the fact that some people just want to give anonymously, but if you put your name behind it and say, I believe in this, and I believe in this to the point where I'm going to give money to it and I'm going to help them, it means a lot more. It has a lot bigger kick. So I learned that and then I started exploring and other organizations, we built a foundation and we tried to make it so that it would be beneficial to LGBTQ organizations a lot. With the arts, especially in Utah, the symphony, the ballet, the opera have always been very dear to me. The School of Music at the University of Utah. And my life changed and actually became so much richer and fuller, more meaningful.
John Dehlin [00:10:33] So as we're kind of recounting, bringing people up to date and sort of giving them the backstory, you know, when you came out as gay as a Mormon in Utah, you know, you kind of did it during a time where it wasn't kind of popular or cool. This was pre Ellen. You know, this was a long time ago. So just talk really quickly about, you know, when in the timeline that happened and how that affected your family, which will then allow us to kind of jump into the main topics of today.
Coming Out and Family Relationships
Bruce Bastian [00:11:06] So my coming out story started over 30 years ago. 19, late 80s, early 90s. It's very interesting because I've. I actually got hate mail for a while from people saying, you know, if you had been. If you'd lived up to your commitments as a good Mormon, word perfect never would have had a downfall. You would have been just as great now. And actually the huge upswing in word perfect all happened after I actually came out. It was. It wasn't a worldwide coming out like Ellen did, but the people who. People who had day to day contact with me all knew I was gay. But it was hard. It was professionally difficult. The people who worked with me were asked to support me, but don't talk about it. So it's like don't ask, don't tell. You know, they knew I was gay, but they were not supposed to talk about it, especially outside of, you know, when we were doing marketing events or whatever. So I was kind of. In some ways, I was the CEO or the chairman of the board of WordPerfect, but I was off in my own closet, and that was hard. And I look back at it now and it was hurtful. And I wish I'd had the guts to say no. But of course you didn't do that then. I mean, in the 90s, you. The 90s was, were years when you just kind of tried to live your life and try to stay safe and unnoticeable. It's not a recipe for happiness at all. It's a recipe for living a lie. And that never equates to happiness.
John Dehlin [00:13:13] And before you come out to the world, you were a temple married Mormon man in a Mormon marriage with four children.
Bruce Bastian [00:13:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:13:24] So coming out wasn't just a personal thing. It was something that affected your wife at the time and your children. Plus there was the whole Mormon angle. Is that right?
Bruce Bastian [00:13:36] Yes. I mean, anybody who has left the LDS Church for whatever reason will understand that it's not just some fly by night decision you make. Well, I don't feel like doing that right now because being a member of the LDS Church is more than just the religion. It's your life, it's your social network, it's your family. If you even contemplate leaving the church, whether it's 30 years ago or now, you contemplate perhaps losing some of your good friends, perhaps losing the support and love of some of your family, it's not an easy decision. And it certainly wasn't for me. I mean, I was very concerned about my kids, what they would have to go through. I was very concerned about the circle of friends I had then and my family. All of those fears. The fears are much worse than the reality then and now. My family for the most part, has stood by me strong and firm. My friends, the good friends I had then are still my good friends. The friends that I had on a professional level turned out to be a lot of them weren't such great friends. Pretty shallow friendships actually. Of course, the friends I had in the, in the church social network, most of them fell by, by the wayside. But in the grand scheme of things, that was probably a blessing.
John Dehlin [00:15:32] And so where did things go in terms of your relationship with your, with your, with your wife and kids? That'll kind of bring us up to kind of maybe where we left off in 2010. How did that, how did that proceed? Was, was there a lot of animosity? Did, were you estranged from your kids? Was it comfortable? Talk about kind of how, how your relationship evolved with your, with your ex wife and kids through 2010.
Bruce Bastian [00:16:01] There was never any animosity. There was always a lot of support from my wife to me, my ex wife for me, and from me to her. We maintained we kept as many family gatherings as we could have. That made sense. I mean, we had usually had Christmas together and Thanksgiving Together. We celebrated a lot of birthdays together. The only regret I have on that whole period is I didn't insist on having my own private time with my kids. Maybe I should have, maybe not. I don't know. I wanted my kids to always feel loved and welcome, and I think they did. I certainly made efforts to try to get that across. It's hard to know. There was never any animosity. There was always a lot of love and good times as a family. But I was divorced. That did happen in the 90s. And I had, in my own way, a very separate life from my ex wife. I was gay, I was dating men. I had a couple of fairly serious relationships during the 90s and early 2000s. Well, I consider them serious. The person I was dating didn't so much. So that's a problem. But not, not for this discussion.
John Dehlin [00:17:43] Yeah, and there's so. Things are so different now. You know, if you think about even someone coming out as gay in 2020, you know, there's no Facebook, there's no, you know, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. There's no social networks. You know, back then, if you were a Mormon kid, you would have been put into Evergreen to try and, you know, have conversion therapy. And you, you largely would have just disappeared from, from Mormon kind of Utah society. People didn't want to think about you. And then you just had to go figure out how to live a life after having not been raised to live the life that you were going to start living. Is that right? It must have been hard to find your way.
Bruce Bastian [00:18:30] It was. It's hard to know. Okay, so there's avenues you explore. First of all, you want to feel safe in where you're going. You want to feel that you can live your life safely. You can have. And then you have this quest for happiness. No matter who you are. Human beings all want to. They all want to be happy. They want the people around them, their, their families, their loved ones. However you define that you want them to all be happy and have that ability to seek out their own happiness, you don't, you don't feel when you come out as gay and you. It's so different. So kids, teenagers usually come out as straight, but okay, that's normal. You start living a straight life. You have boyfriends, girlfriends. You do the crazy stuff that teenagers do when you're gay, depending on whether you come out as 16 or 60. I'm sorry, you still have these crazy times and you're not really sure exactly where to go sometimes. Thank God I was Never pushed into conversion therapy. I know people that did go through conversion therapy and it really screwed them up emotionally, sometimes physically. Conversion therapy is so horrible. I'm so glad it's basically not. It's becoming more and more outlawed all around the world now, and I'm grateful for that. You can't change a person. Their sexuality is, is something that is inherent to who you are. It doesn't necessarily define you, but it certainly is a part of who you are. Your characteristics, your likes, your dislikes. And to try to change that is basically trying to change who that underlying human being is. And it's wrong and it's vile. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:20:37] I think it's worth noting that during, let's just say the late 80s, 90s and even early to mid 2000s and later, you know, legal same sex marriage just wasn't even in the cards. It wasn't even fathomable. So I'm guessing that gay culture wasn't necessarily around some sort of, you know, committed. I'm sure committed same sex relationships existed, but this idea of sort of working towards the same type of union that heterosexual couples have worked towards for centuries, if not more, that really wasn't kind of in the cards. I. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Bruce Bastian [00:21:20] No.
John Dehlin [00:21:21] And so in the, in the 90s and 2000s, that's, you know, you're, you're doing something else, right?
Bruce Bastian [00:21:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:21:27] I mean, what are you envisioning for yourself then? You.
Bruce Bastian [00:21:31] So when I was a kid, I didn't even know. I mean, I knew what, where my attractions were, but nobody talked about being gay. Nobody talked about gay rights. You had the Stonewall riots in New York in the 60s, and that was. Oh, wow. You had, you had different things. I remember when marriage was legalized in Massachusetts. I don't remember the exact time, the exact year, but I remember when that happened. And it felt like, wow, how can this. This was like mind boggling. And of course there was huge backlash. Other people around the United States thinking, oh, the society in social justice and society in general in Massachusetts, it's going to crumble. That never happened. Never happened. You know, if you love someone, you want to be with that person. The way the laws of the United States have been written for centuries since the United States became a country, has always promoted marriage. Marriage has always been beneficial, legally, tax wise. There in so many ways, being married was. That's what you wanted to do. It's in, in Mormonism, it was you, you grow up. I hope they call me on a mission. You go on a mission, you get home from a mission and you get married. That was just how you did it. So if you all of a sudden throw this wrench into the works that you're gay, then a lot changes. A lot changes.
John Dehlin [00:23:31] And you don't have this decades long programming and conditioning to sort of tell you, here's how your life's gonna go. You know, you kind of just start seeing what world is out there and experimenting and trying things. Right.
Bruce Bastian [00:23:44] Actually, you do. You do have this programming that if you come out as gay, you will be alone. You will never have a fulfilling relationship. You will never have satisfaction of, of the world around you. You will live a long, a long, lonely, horrible life.
John Dehlin [00:24:04] That's how you were primed.
Bruce Bastian [00:24:05] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:24:06] To, to think about what you're, what you were facing.
Bruce Bastian [00:24:08] You're giving up, you're giving up your life if you. Yep.
John Dehlin [00:24:11] But. But you, but you started dating and
Bruce Bastian [00:24:13] so I didn't believe any of that.
John Dehlin [00:24:17] Okay. You didn't buy it?
Bruce Bastian [00:24:18] I didn't buy it. No. I, I mean, I feared it. I feared it, but I didn't, I didn't buy the fact that that had to be my life. And I was determined in the 90s, as early as the 90s when I came out. I am not going to live a long, lonely life. That's just not me. And I'm not gonna, I'm not, I'm not going to let you tell me how to live my life.
John Dehlin [00:24:46] And I love that. But I'm also guessing that as you're thinking about, okay, I've got the rest of my life ahead of me. I'm guessing that at first you're like, hey, one of the benefits is I get to date who, whoever I want. Lots of variety, Just have whatever experiences I want. Yes. You're not thinking, I'm excited to settle down and pick one person and be with them for the rest of my life. Right, right.
Bruce Bastian [00:25:08] I mean, there was, there was no, There was that, that level of, of settling down into this marital bliss, that was not even an option. Even if that's kind of what you desired. I mean, I, I know gay couples that have been together for 30, 40 years. It did happen, even though they weren't able to legally get married. But it, it certainly wasn't the norm.
John Dehlin [00:25:38] And it, and it probably wasn't. I mean, you're not. Because it's not legally. It wasn't at that point legally allowed, and you weren't raised with a vision for what life could be. It just, it doesn't seem like it would have Been a prominent piece of kind of how you saw your future.
Bruce Bastian [00:25:56] Right. You're correct. It, it, it's, I mean, there was just like this glimmer of hope in the background that, yes, I'm going to find Mr. Right and life will be wonderful for the rest of my life. Yes. The reality of that happening was not really shining bright.
John Dehlin [00:26:18] And so if you had to characterize those years where you were dating, Even up through 2010, it's hard to characterize a couple decades in just a summary. But how do you characterize all those dating experiences up to 2010? Awesome. Super painful.
Bruce Bastian [00:26:37] A lot of. I would characterize it as a lot of learning years. Learning what, what I did want in a partner and certainly what I didn't.
John Dehlin [00:26:52] What were the things you didn't want?
Bruce Bastian [00:26:57] Well, the first thing that pops up my eye. Drugs. I've watched drugs tear relationships apart on straight gay. And what I did want was honesty, honesty above all else. And those are two. And they kind of, the honesty kind of became more and more important to me.
John Dehlin [00:27:29] So kind of honest living with no drugs.
Bruce Bastian [00:27:33] Honest living with no drugs and good communication. I think communication is so important. Honest communication, even when it comes. There are things that need to be said that may not be easily said. I think that they still need to be said.
The Road to Marriage Equality
John Dehlin [00:27:53] So by our interview in 2010, you would have had a few decades of experimenting, of dating, of probably having some committed relationships. So what would your status have been at that point of how you saw life, you know, your life, relationships and your future?
Bruce Bastian [00:28:13] If I had to characterize how I thought about being gay in 2010, I was both encouraged but disillusioned. You can never have a one sided relationship. I don't care how hard you try. A one sided relationship will never work. I don't care how much you love the person or think you do, if they don't love you back equally, it won't work. It just will not work. And I, but I had also learned by 2010, I'd also learned to accept myself, who I am and how some parts of me can make it difficult to be with me. I get that. I was also very encouraged with, with the progress I was starting to see in rights, in LGBTQ rights, in fighting for non discrimination.
John Dehlin [00:29:22] And let's, let's just jump in there because just for those who haven't been paying attention to LGBTQ rights, as you mentioned, you know, Massachusetts starts to show some leadership. We have some things going on in Hawaii if we go before 2008. Right. We have some sparkles of hope that the government will start to legitimize same sex unions or even same sex marriage.
Bruce Bastian [00:29:46] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:29:46] And then the anvil of Prop 8 hits in 2008, largely supported and financed by the Mormon Church.
Bruce Bastian [00:29:54] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:29:54] So that would have. And go ahead and take it from there. So by 2008, what happened to those glimmers of hope? And that would have led to our interview in 2010, because by the time we had 2010, same sex marriage had been taken away.
Bruce Bastian [00:30:07] So I remember, I remember the 2008 election very, very well. I was in Washington D.C. because I had. I was very much involved with the human rights campaign by then.
John Dehlin [00:30:21] That's still nonprofit.
Bruce Bastian [00:30:22] Yes, I still am.
John Dehlin [00:30:24] Tell us about the hrc.
Bruce Bastian [00:30:25] HRC is the nation's largest, probably the world's largest LGBTQ advocacy group fighting for non discrimination and rights for all Americans, but specifically for LGBTQ Americans. 2008 election was. We were celebrating because the election was called for Obama quite early. And we knew Obama was very much pro LGBTQ rights. And then a couple hours later in the night, we found out that Prop 8 passed.
John Dehlin [00:31:05] Which did what?
Bruce Bastian [00:31:06] Prop 8 basically outlawed gay marriage in California. And I had been a very strong supporter of no on 8. No hate no 8. And the LDS Church had been a very strong proponent. Yes on 8.
John Dehlin [00:31:28] That's a lot of power coming out of Utah between the two.
Bruce Bastian [00:31:32] Yeah, well, but the Mormon Church had this hidden benefit. They had this army of Mormons in California who, you know, Mormons are taught how to preach, they know how to proselyte, they know how to go out and convert and they did a lot of that. I won't say they are really honest about what they said, but they were successful. And I really do think that Prop 8 would not have passed had it not been for the support and money.
John Dehlin [00:32:11] And money, effort, mobilization.
Bruce Bastian [00:32:13] Yes. All those from the church and at least $40 million.
John Dehlin [00:32:18] Right?
Bruce Bastian [00:32:19] I don't know the total, but a lot.
John Dehlin [00:32:21] Yeah.
Bruce Bastian [00:32:21] And, but I think, I think it was the grassroots effort that meant, but was actually more important. And then after that it kind of backfired on them because you saw a lot of uprising even in Utah. I remember the marches around temple square after Prop 8 passed. A lot of people, not just they
John Dehlin [00:32:47] were protesting the LA Temple. Like people were showing up signs vandalizing the LA Temple because it's a symbol of Mormonism in California. Right?
Bruce Bastian [00:32:55] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:32:56] Embarrassing for the church.
Bruce Bastian [00:32:58] It was embarrassing. It also hurt them in the pocketbook. If you ever want to hurt an organization, hurt their pocketbook. That's not just the more that's any organization. That's because they started losing membership. You actually started had people resigning from the church because of their stance on LGBTQ rights. And it was kind of a wake up call for the church.
John Dehlin [00:33:25] I, I believe I was militarized by Prop 8.
Bruce Bastian [00:33:28] Really?
John Dehlin [00:33:29] Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Bruce Bastian [00:33:31] So sometime we need to tell that story.
John Dehlin [00:33:33] Okay, yeah, we'll turn the tables.
Bruce Bastian [00:33:35] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:33:36] Okay. So, so Prop 8 happens. You try and defeat 8, it wins. So you're excited about Obama, but you're bummed about Prop 8. And, and then, you know, those two
Bruce Bastian [00:33:49] years go by, those two years go by. And so by 2010, politically we start to see a backlash against Obama, against progressive movement. There was more and more talk of various states in the country passing their own laws or constitutional amendments making marriage only between a man and a woman. There was a push for a federal amendment to make marriage just a same sex marriage.
John Dehlin [00:34:31] The Defense of Marriage Act. Is that what that was, doma, or was that something else?
Bruce Bastian [00:34:35] That was something else. That was actually. The Defense of Marriage act was very important, but there was actually a movement to have a federal amendment, a federal constitutional amendment, and it was gaining steam. And maybe DOMA's the same thing, but whatever.
John Dehlin [00:34:54] Federal stuff.
Bruce Bastian [00:34:55] Yeah, federal stuff. And that's where I really started to work hard for hrc. I went around the country raising money to defeat doma. We raised millions of dollars in a very short time and I'm very proud of that. But we did, we beat it. I remember sitting in the chambers of the Senate and I remember John McCain. I'm a Democrat, John McCain's a Republican, but I remember him coming to the floor of the Senate and making a speech that just, I just was so honored to be there, saying that DOMA basically would pass laws enshrining discrimination against a certain part of certain class of American citizens. And he voted against it. He basically helped kill it. So that was a very, that was a wonderful moment. The only time I've actually been in the Senate when they were debating law. It's kind of cool.
John Dehlin [00:36:06] So I imagine that it could have been very discouraging. You know, the aftermath of Prop 8. If you had asked me back in the day, I would have, I would have anticipated it taking another 20 or 30 years. So when you're working with HRC, when you're engaging in your activism, what are you, what are you fighting for? And within what reasonable timeframe are you hoping things are going to happen? And what were the battles you were fighting by 2010 and beyond, there were
Bruce Bastian [00:36:33] two battles, but two places where we were trying to make headway. One was just in social acceptance, the acceptance of citizens in general of gay people. I remember us talking in 2010 about Icky and about.
John Dehlin [00:36:55] What was my question.
Bruce Bastian [00:36:58] You asked me the question. A lot of people don't like homosexual lifestyle because they think it's icky. And we had quite an interesting discussion about icky. But I saw the icky factor kind of going away as people. And again, it's education. As people became educated in what LGBT people really were. The fact that, you know, they. Most Americans, even though they didn't realize it, they knew gay people. They had in the. In their professional lives, maybe in their neighborhoods, the person working in the grocery store, whatever. They knew people who were gay and didn't even. That never turn on the light bulb until it started to 2010, 2011. Because. Because these topics became more talked about. And the other thing the HRC realized, and I credit HRC for being so brilliant on a lot of these things that they understood the legal fights and the legal challenges and. And the way we could actually win this thing in the courts. So there's two things. You have to win. You have to win. You have to win in the law, but you also have to win in the hearts and minds of people. And I think the Human Rights Campaign is so brilliant in how they approach both of those aspects.
John Dehlin [00:38:33] So what year was same sex marriage legalized across the country? What year was that? Oh, 1315.
Bruce Bastian [00:38:43] I think it was. 15.
John Dehlin [00:38:45] 15. Okay. So how did you guys. How did you guys do that? You went. You. You. And basically from 2008. Seven years. Basically right from 2008 to 2015, in seven years, you're able to do what we thought would have taken 20 or 30.
Bruce Bastian [00:39:00] Yeah. And it took. It took all of that. It took changing hearts and minds. It took a lot of people on governmental sides. It took a lot of people in the public eye. I really think Will and Grace did a lot to change people personally. And there are other television shows and movies that involve gay characters, and I think that helped people loosen up. They weren't so uptight about LGBTQ people. And then legally, the case against Prop 8 to overturn Prop 8, which went all the way to the Supreme Court, was such a brilliant case. And because it involved both of this, both of these channels, it involved the Legal Channel by hiring Ted Olson and David Boyce, who are both so brilliant, and their arguments are. You can't really fight their arguments that they leave no holes and them and the plaintiffs that were selected to be the plaintiffs in this case. And it was just marvelously done. And it challenged Prop 8 legally, but also hearts and minds. Like, how can you tell this couple, these people that have been together for years and want to just have a legal marriage, how can you tell them that they're not entitled to the 1300 federal rights that same sex married people get automatically the day they say yes and gay couples are not allowed to have? How can you do that? Well, you can't. So it happened quickly. It did happen quickly, but I think there are a lot of factors that contributed to that.
John Dehlin [00:41:08] Wasn't it interesting that Utah played an important role in the national legalization of same sex marriage?
Bruce Bastian [00:41:15] Yes, yes, I think Utah did. And that case was so important because you had a federal judge basically knocking down this argument of that a state can say you can't get married. It was crucial. And it was even more important because it happened in such a red state as Utah and it kind of woke people up. And that's kind of when the dam started to burst.
John Dehlin [00:41:50] Yeah, it's kind of fun.
Bruce Bastian [00:41:52] It is fun. Think about now. It wasn't always fun at the time because there were a lot of, I mean, I can remember when we were fighting against the state constitutional amendment in Utah that basically outlawed same sex marriage. Supreme Court kind of threw that one away. So that's good.
Bruce's Role in the HRC and Legalization
John Dehlin [00:42:18] And so just to summarize your role with the hrc, you know, you were, you, the HRC was fighting these legal battles, is that right? They were kind of devising the legal strategy, working with the lawyers.
Bruce Bastian [00:42:29] No, hrc. HRC was never a real legal arm. We, we, we supported that. We helped, we helped a lot of the hearts and minds thing. We were never involved in the actual legal fights except to give supporting documents on state levels, on federal levels, wherever there was a fight, we would always be there to support with whatever documentation and witnesses that we could. And all that's important. The, the main legal fights were not from HRC.
John Dehlin [00:43:13] Okay, so if you had to summarize HRC's role in the eventual legalization of same sex marriage nationwide in the U.S. what, what were the main roles that HRC played and that you were involved in?
Bruce Bastian [00:43:26] I think HRC had a huge, a huge role in changing hearts and minds around the country. And HRC raised a lot of money for these fights, both on local and state levels and federal levels. We also, I mean HRC was always finding people to be witnesses again on any level, local, state, federal, and supplying a lot of Documentation to the courts to back up the rights, the non discrimination. They were always a very important part. They never hired or paid the lawyers, but they were always there. They were always there as major players in what was happening in the courtrooms all over the country.
John Dehlin [00:44:23] And Utah and the Mormon Church were both having kind of their own battles and experiences in parallel to what was going on federally. Is that right?
Bruce Bastian [00:44:34] Absolutely. I mean, the local community in Utah is a great, strong, committed community of LGBTQ people. And I think Equality Utah is an amazing, wonderful local organization. I don't think LGBTQ people in Utah realize how important Equality Utah has been and still is in fighting for rights. We have statewide non discrimination laws, which for a red state like Utah is pretty remarkable and wonderful. And that's really because of the leadership and the hard work of Equality Utah.
John Dehlin [00:45:25] And to do any. Utah is almost a theocracy in the sense that to get any legislation passed on a statewide level, you have to work with, with the leaders of the Mormon Church. So that made it particularly remarkable that whether it's Jim debacus, Troy Williams, Steve Urquhart, I don't know how much you were involved, but that was a sensitive thing to get the church to support.
Bruce Bastian [00:45:48] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:45:49] That legislation.
Bruce Bastian [00:45:50] The people in the legislature and the people in Equality Utah all knew very, very well that you cannot get anything really meaningful passed in the Utah legislature without the support of the LDS Church. It just doesn't happen. There are a lot of so many backroom dealings that happen during the legislature, it's almost scary. But I think Prop 8 kind of made the church think we need to not be seen as anti gay. That kind of maybe scared them. So I really think it helped us push that through so that they, they just didn't want what happened after Prop 8 to happen again. So they kind of, they didn't come out rah rah for anti discrimination, but they didn't fight it either, which was very important.
John Dehlin [00:46:53] Yeah. And, and it allowed the church to be able to say, hey, we don't, we don't hate gay people. We, we didn't block the legislation from, from going through in the state. Right.
Bruce Bastian [00:47:03] Yeah, it was. Yeah. But, you know, whatever it takes. At least we have the laws protecting us as LGBTQ people now, which is a great thing.
John Dehlin [00:47:15] Yeah. So do you remember the day that same sex marriage was legalized nationwide and, and where you were and how you heard and how you felt? I remember.
Bruce Bastian [00:47:27] I couldn't tell you what the date was, but I remember and I remember how gratifying it was. I Remember thinking, I never thought this would happen in my lifetime. It was a wonderful feeling. It was a feeling that, you know, you grow up being ashamed or being worried or scared and to have, to have this, okay, I'm as good as you, I can get married now to the person I love. That's a wonderful feeling. It is a wonderful feeling. And to know that, you know, people are fighting now so I can't get fired or I can't get kicked out of my apartment just because of the person I love, those are all I never thought as a 30 year old, I never thought I would see that. A 40 year old. I mean, no, it's so pretty amazing and wonderful in that sense.
John Dehlin [00:48:34] So, Bruce, as you were fighting for the legalization of same sex marriage nationwide, how much of that did you think of in terms of you fighting for your own rights? Were you thinking in 2010, 2012, 2013, 14? I want to be able to be married someday and I'm fighting for me. Or were you not even in your sights when you're making these efforts?
Bruce Bastian [00:49:00] I still never, I told you, by 2010, I was pretty disillusioned thinking, you know, yes, I want, I want gay marriage. I want same sex marriage to be legal. I don't want there to be discrimination against people just because of whom they love. That's wrong. I didn't want kids in high school or college growing up with the same fears I had. I wanted that. I want. Those things were wrong. And that's what I was fighting for or against. However you want to look at it, I never thought, I want to get married. This is for me. I want to get married. I mean, by the time in 2010, you know, nobody's going to fire me. I didn't have a job. I wasn't going to get kicked out because I own my home. So a lot of these things were not even relevant to me personally, but they were still very, very relevant because I remember very clearly what I went through as a kid and as a young adult, and I thought those were. People should not have to go through that. And that's what I was fighting for.
John Dehlin [00:50:15] And so in your mind, you, you didn't necessarily envision. And isn't it kind of wonderful that what you ended up fighting for ended up enriching your life in some very specific way that we're about to get to.
Bruce Bastian [00:50:30] Yes, it is remarkable. It's amazing and so gratifying. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:50:35] That it came back around.
Bruce Bastian [00:50:36] Yeah. Yes.
Reflections and Looking Ahead
John Dehlin [00:50:39] All right, so I think this ends part one of our interview with Bruce Bastian. It takes us up to a very important next part of his story, so thanks for joining us so far. Bruce, I just have to say, as a father of LGBT children, as a citizen of Utah, as someone who has seen improvements not just in the state of Utah, not just within the Mormon Church, because there's been a lot of progress, we'll get to that. But also just nationwide. Can I just say on behalf of Utah, the United States, all the Mormon people that I care about, I think one of the things that made me so excited to interview you once and follow up again is, is the fact that you are kind of a legend in making so much of, of, of being central at the efforts to making so much of these things possible for my kids, for, for so many people that I care about and for a country that I care about. So on behalf of all them, Bruce, thank you so much for all you've done.
Bruce Bastian [00:51:49] Thank you. It, it has made you, yes, word perfect was a wonderful time in my life and very rewarding. But to fight for these things and see them actually change people's lives is so much more important for me.
John Dehlin [00:52:04] What's that been like to be kind of a warrior for justice, for social justice?
Bruce Bastian [00:52:09] Well, I never considered myself, I don't know that hat exists, but people have often said, don't you miss the professional world, getting out there and owning a company and doing all this thing? And I just have to say, no, this is so much more rewarding. And, and, and the, the, for a good Mormon phrase, the blessings that I have experienced and have come down upon me
John Dehlin [00:52:39] far, far more rewarding, such as
Bruce Bastian [00:52:43] just seeing, just getting to know people, getting to know the people who are the plaintiffs in the Prop 8 case, getting to know some of the, some of the politicians and people of, you know, famous people that you get to know who are all fighting for these same things. It's been really, really wonderful.
John Dehlin [00:53:15] So beautiful. Well, thanks again for all your efforts, Bruce.
Bruce Bastian [00:53:19] My pleasure.
John Dehlin [00:53:20] And don't go away because what we have next is, is what I think is. And I think, I know that you'll think it is the most important part of this whole second interview. Turns out that Bruce found love and maybe even got married. And this is, this is years after he had kind of maybe given up on the proposition and years after he had fought to support other people. It just turns out that his efforts came around and blessed his own life. So don't go away, come right back and you're going to see a love story that I think is going to be inspiring to you because I know it's inspiring to me, so stay tuned. Thanks so much, everybody. See you in just one second.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
One Response
Gay marriage was legalized in June 2015. In Nov 2015, just 5 months later, the LDS policy against those who are gay and their children was issued. It appears that the church wasn’t on board with the updated marriage law.
Excellent interview!