Introduction and Announcements

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 256

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hey, Mormon Stories listeners, just a couple of quick announcements. First, please mark your calendars for the two upcoming Mormon Stories regional conferences. The Salt Lake City conference will be held the weekend of June 10, 2011, and the San Diego Conference will be held the weekend of July 22, 2011. Please join our Mormon Stories Facebook group to learn more about these conferences. Next, if any of you are interested in locating other Mormons like you amongst your family, friends, etc. Or in your local community, please friend me, John Dehlin on Facebook. And also, more importantly, visit the support communities section of MormonStories.org to locate the Mormon Stories Facebook support group in your city. Currently, we have over 40 support groups worldwide and are hoping to create many more. Finally, Mormon Stories is made possible by listeners like you to keep it alive along with all these other services. Please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Guest [00:01:22] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear.

Welcome and Episode Overview

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:29] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories. This is Natasha Helfer Parker. And today I am planning on broaching the diverse topic of race, specifically what it's like to grow up in the church as a black member. With me tonight, I have Dustin Jones. He's a lifelong member of the church, husband, father of four, lawyer, practicing law and residing in Arizona. Hello, Dustin.

Dustin Jones [00:01:57] Good evening. How are you?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:58] Good. Thank you so much for joining me tonight.

Dustin Jones [00:02:01] I'm honored. I'm honored. I know there are a few of us, but I am honored.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:04] You're so kind. Okay, so, yeah, so I would like to get started with your basic background and kind of just start with the beginning as far as your, you know, where you come from and tell me your story.

Dustin's Pioneer Mormon Heritage

Dustin Jones [00:02:19] Okay, Very good. Let me see. What I want to do is at least let your listeners realize and pay homage, I should say, to my Mormon heritage, my pioneer Mormon heritage that goes back to 1830, when my ancestors were converted to the gospel. Whenever I say that, whenever I've given a talk, people always kind of look at me and kind of squint. Really? Your ancestors were converted in 1830. You're one of the descendants of the black Mormons that came across the plains. And I had to clarify. No, that's not actually the case. I'm biracial. My mother is white and my dad is black. So on my mother's side of the family, I have very strong and deep Mormon pioneer stock roots that I'm very, very proud of. My grandmother, bless her heart, was very much a genealogist, and so she was Very proud of our Mormon heritage. She would always tell us the stories of our direct ancestry and direct lineage in the church, all the way back to Levi Ward Hancock. He was baptized in 1830 and was a friend of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Participated in all of the events of the Restoration, the principal events. Participated in Zion's Camp, participated in the Mormon Battalion, was in Kirtland, was in Nauvoo, Was very loyal to the Prophet and kept a journal. A lot of our Mormon history that we have that you can research at BYU or at the University of Utah, a lot of it is derived from his journal and his son's journal to give you an idea of how much he loved Mormonism and. And loved Joseph Smith, his son, from his first wife. From Levi's first wife, he named Mosiah. And you obviously know where he got the name Mosiah. But Mosiah Hancock was his first son. One of his last son with his first wife, from whom I'm a direct descendant, was Joseph Smith Hancock, again showing kind of his allegiance, his love for Joseph Smith. I have a copy of his journal that I think it's just reproduced typed transcripts of the journal that my grandmother passed down to me. I read these as a kid. I've read them recently. I've used them in talks as I've served in leadership of the church. I served probably almost 10 years as a Stake gang men's president and taught institute and seminary.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:56] And you're standing in front of this congregation as a black man talking about your pioneer heritage. And even it sounds like polygamy roots. It's like blowing everybody's brain cells.

Dustin Jones [00:05:11] Let's start talking about it. And before I kind of disclose kind of the names of people. Yeah. I start to kind of get the look and the tilt of the head. Really.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:20] Wow.

Dustin Jones [00:05:21] Fascinating. But, yeah, definitely from a part of me is very much Mormon stock. Again, being raised. My grandmother being a genealogist and being very, very proud member of the Utah Daughters of the Utah Pioneers and knowing her history again, from Levi Ward Hancock and Mosiah Joseph Smith Hancock. They settled in Northern Arizona, which is where my family's from. In Taylor, Arizona, is where my grandmother was born. My mother was born up in Northern Arizona, I believe, in Winslow. My great grandparents are all are buried up there. That's where our roots are. I used to go as a kid to the Hancock reunions up in Northern Arizona. It was always kind of funny in those situations. We'd show up at the reunion and there'd just be this, you know, we'd be at a park and there'd be all these kids and all these white kids running around the family. And my grandma would be very, very proud at this point to show up with her grandkids. And we'd always just kind of look around because it was. There was no question we were the, quote, unquote, black sheep of the family. I mean, there was no pun intended. And people were just kind of looking and kind of looking around. Who are these kids?

Guest [00:06:27] Wow.

Dustin Jones [00:06:29] And I'm sure, I mean, we didn't sense anything hostile or anything like that, but it was always just. It was just unique because it was a family reunion and people are going, okay, how are these kids part of the family?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:40] I wonder how unique your position is. I wonder how many biracial members. I mean, I guess in the last probably 20, 30 years, there's been more likelihood of there being biracial marriage, but that sounds like a pretty unique position.

Dustin Jones [00:06:58] Yeah. My grandmother, she did a very good job of instilling us that pride of the Mormon heritage, and I love her for that. I mean, she was very instrumental in helping me develop my testimony of the gospel. She was very much one that studied things and would try to pass those on to me. I was her eldest grandchildren, and she loved to impart kind of our Mormon heritage and talk about Hancock and how we were related to John Hancock, who was a signatory of the Declaration of Independence. She just really got into that. And so I always like American history. Yes, American history, the Mormon history. She had all the genealogy back to England and all of that. It was just really part of my sense of heritage and place within Mormon history, Mormon culture, and feeling very much a part of it. This one side of me. The other side is my African American side of the family. And my biological family. Father. My biological family comes from Mississippi, and they moved to Northern Arizona, to Winslow, Arizona, to work on the trains, on the railroads up there many years ago. I believe it was in the 40s, because my father was, I believe, or moved there in the 50s or 40s. But they've been up in Northern Arizona, and they're still there. There's a small African American community in Winslow, Arizona, interestingly, on the other side of the tracks, of course, because you go up there and it's very clear there's that side of the tracks and there's the rest of the town, and that's where they live. They've been there for many, many years. Speak about my mom. Give you a little bit of history about my mom. My mom in the 60s was probably much more of a product of her time in the 60s, as things were changing socially and things like that. She liked black guys. I'll just be very clear. I don't know if there were a lot of them in Winslow, but she loved music, she loved to dance, she loved to go out, and that was the crowd that she was hanging with. And so that's where ikeepers say she was the hippie, kind of probably the free love, but just a very happy person. Loved life, raised me to love life, raised me.

Family History and Grandmother's Story

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:13] Was she the oldest in her family?

Dustin Jones [00:09:15] She was my grandmother's oldest child. And so that's just kind of how her outlook on life. Very positive, very fun loving. I have so many fun stories, neighbors and kids that know. My mom knew my mom as kid. She was more like, kind of like a big sister than your mom. I just never. She was never the authoritarian mom figure. She was the big sister. And we could talk about anything. She was very open about anything. She never. She was one of those that didn't raise me, believe in Santa Claus, because that's not true. And I'm not going to tell you something that's not true. And she told it to me as a myth, as a cute story to believe in, but the truth was more important to her than to tell me something that was not true.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:54] I'm assuming that this kind of free love, liking black men, I'm assuming that didn't go over very well with her parents.

Dustin Jones [00:10:02] Or it did not. When I was. And I learned about this more as I got older. When I was 14 years old, I was kind of perusing her collection of books on her shelf, and I pulled out the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball, and out fell a birth certificate. I remember looking at this birth certificate and it said Baby Boy Jones. And it had a different date, had a date of 1970. And I knew I was born in 72. And I'm looking at this birth certificate and just bewilderment, kind of puzzled, wondering, okay, am I actually two years older than my mom has told me? And I thought, wow, that's cool. I can drive now. I'm 16. And I started thinking about it and I'm like, okay, why would this. This is a different date. It's my mom's name on here. It's clear. It was official. It was definitely a birth certificate. So I said, mom, what is this birth certificate for this baby boy? And her eyes. I mean, I could see the emotion in her eyes. And she said, give me that. And she took it away from me, and she said, I'll talk to you about this some other time in your life. And it sat there for probably another four or five years. Just as I was leaving on my mission at 19, she wanted to talk to me about some of these things. And now that I was kind of going into adulthood, I'd already spent a year at the University of Arizona. And she let me know that she had had a child before me two years before. She had gotten pregnant by a black man as well in 1970, and that because of the circumstances that she had to give this child up for adoption to the state of Nevada, she went to Las Vegas to bear the child, and he was given away in Nevada.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:11:42] And so how old was she? Why did she have to do this?

Dustin Jones [00:11:46] She was 18. Yes, she just turned 18 when this happened. A legal adult, but, yeah, but probably the family circumstances and whatnot, that was what she felt compelled to do at the time. And this was, again, this is prior to the priesthood ban. This is a Mormon family. This is a Mormon community. I can't imagine that there were too many allies of hers, and this was probably the best way to deal with it. I don't know if she was whisked away to Vegas to deliver with. People in the community knew about it. I don't know what happened then. I do know from talking to my biological father that he told me that my mom just essentially kind of disappeared. She just was gone. She didn't know where she went. And she came back to town, back to Winslow, and she was like, oh, yeah, I'd been in Vegas. And he didn't know. He didn't know what she was off in Vegas for. She initially didn't tell him. They started dating. She got pregnant with me. And it was, again, kind of a touchy situation in the community for her and for my father.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:54] So you're saying that she left your town before she would show that she was even pregnant. Like, nobody really knew she was pregnant. And so she was gone for, let's say, five months while she was giving birth to the baby. Is that kind of your thing?

Dustin Jones [00:13:08] That was the impression I got because my father, my biological father, knew her, knew they had mutual friends, but he just said, your mom just disappeared. I mean, she was just gone. And we didn't know what happened or where she went. We just were told that she moved, and then she came back all of a sudden. And I never really talked to my grandmother about how many people in the community in Winslow knew that my mom had. Had this child before.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:32] So even at the age of 14, when you broach the subject to her with this birth certificate, it's still very hush hush. 14 years later. She's definitely still in a position where this is very painful. This is not about.

Dustin Jones [00:13:45] Yes, absolutely. And even I didn't talk to my grandmother. My grandmother, no one ever talked to me about it and no one talked to me about it until I had returned back from admission. So I was 21 when I was having adult grown up conversations, I should say, with, with my grandmother about this situation. They were all like, well, yeah, we didn't know if you should tell you or how. And that was your mom's thing to tell you. And I respect that. But she kind of, at that point, me as an adult kind of opened up and told me more of the story of what had happened and things like that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:16] An interesting book to find that birth certificate in.

Dustin Jones [00:14:19] Yeah. And I asked about that and I think that was part of. She was given that I was part of her repentance process. She was counseled to go through as she had had premarital sex and things like that. I don't know why that, that was where that book was at.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:38] So as far as your mom is concerned, the way you're depicting her is kind of this fun loving and exploring life and having premarital relationships. What was her relationship with the church at that point? Was she kind of just a believing member of the church, just not living by its precepts, or was she just saying, you know what, I'm just not really buying the story and so I'm just going to kind of go live my own life?

Dustin Jones [00:15:05] No, she's a believing member, just not living, living the standards, just her personal choices. I mean, my mom has never ever doubted the truthfulness of the gospel, the church. She struggled with living the standards herself at times, but she never ever questions. I never ever heard her question or doubt a leader, a general authority, anything she ever was taught by anyone in the church. I mean, that's just. Was just something that never, never happened.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:32] Okay, so. And that's true to this day as

Dustin Jones [00:15:35] far as true to this day as well. Yeah, I was visiting with her just last week and she still has that still affirmation of truth about everything. And what's the truthfulness of the church and the restoration? Absolutely.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:46] So do you have a sense from your mom's perspective, I mean, here we have some quotes from Brigham Young from back in the day that, you know, people who would have children interracially, that those Children would die on the spot or. I mean, obviously that didn't happen, but there's a lot of, I guess, background for her to feel dismissed somehow or feel guilty or did she have. Has she ever talked about what that was like, to have that kind of, I don't know, that kind of doctrinal background of her religion and then yet mixing her race with somebody else? Did she. Has she ever talked about that?

Dustin Jones [00:16:33] I got more of the doctrinal teaching side of things from my grandmother, who struggled more with it than probably my mom did. My grandmother struggled a lot with my eldest brother who was placed in adoption. I mean, it was. It was just a lot of heartache. There was just a lot of heartache accepting that this pioneer heritage, this Mormon pioneer stock and all the things that had been said by all the general authorities about not mixing the races and things like that, that her daughter had done this and that she literally, her posterity. There was, in her mind, there was little hope from an eternal perspective, from a salvation perspective. There was just too many unknowns and too many things that had been said by leaders of the church that were of concern to her. When I was born and when my oldest brother was born, it was just really weighing on her. She had in her possession a book entitled the Church and the Negro that was published in 1967 that. I don't know if you can find this. I tried to Google it and look for it, and I don't know that you can find it anywhere, but it was written by John Lewis Lund, who was a CES veteran. I mean, and he. What he does is he attempts to explain the priesthood, ban interrocial marriage, all these types of things. The curse, Cain. We can talk about some of these things later, but all of this was kind of in this book and summarized here and explaining. She had this. This was given to her. I got it before I went on my mission. She'd given it to me as a teenager to read. I'd read these things. So she had all this in her mind when I was young and it was very troubling to her. This copy I have is a 1972 year copy, right the year I was born. And so she struggled with that. And I remember sitting down with her before I went on my mission and her talking to me about her feelings at the time. And it was almost as though she was wanting to apologize to me for the way she felt about me when I was born was the sense I got. And she was pretty clear, she was very emotional about the sense of Despair she felt knowing that she was going to have a black grandchild was very, very disturbing to her. My grandfather, who was not a member of the church, actually, he essentially wrote my mom off at this point.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:02] This is her husband, your grandmother's husband?

Dustin Jones [00:19:04] This is my grandmother's husband, my mom's father.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:07] He was not a member of the church.

Dustin Jones [00:19:08] He was not a member of the church. So it was already kind of a mixed family there, but they were married. He was married to my grandmother, but he was from old Oklahoma family. And they also believe you just did not mix the races. It was just something you just did not do. And I can tell you I had no contact with him almost my entire life until 10 years ago, when he thought he was going to die and he had gotten cancer. And it was that point when he, 70 years old, realized that. That he should reach out to his posterity. He didn't have. My mom was his only child. We were his only grandchildren, his only descendants. And he had moved to Phoenix, and I was practicing law at this time, and he wanted to come and meet me. And so that's when I met my biological grandfather, my mom's dad, for the first time just 10 years ago. And he also was very and very apologetic. And he apologized. Yes, he had disowned my mom. And he just wanted me to understand. He said, dustin, I just want you to understand. He says, just the world that I came from, the world I grew up in, even in Winslow, you just did not mix the races. And it just was something I could not comprehend when my daughter had done this. It was something I could not accept. And yes, I was a racist. I'm probably still a racist, but that's just how we saw the world back then, Dustin. There was just nothing else to think of. And so I just didn't have any idea how to react to your mother. And then he talked to me about that, and he mentioned that. That he still goes back up to Winslow, which is where he worked on the railroad for many, many years. And he said, you know, you and I can visit down here, Dustin. I can get together with you for lunch and go see your kids. I'm gonna meet my great grandkids and things like that, but we can never be seen together in Winslow, really. He said, that's just not something I can have. My friends know that I have a black grandson. And I just. I just thought, okay, so it's still alive and well.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:08] Is he still alive?

Dustin Jones [00:21:10] Yeah, he's still alive. And. And. And we have. We have a Good relationship and I think him being exposed to me and my family, my wife and my kids. My wife is, is also biracial. Her, her grandfather immigrated from China to Mexico so she's Chinese, Mexican. My, my mother in law's literally looks Asian, but she was born in Mexico, raised in Mexico. So my wife has Asian features. My, a lot of her family have Asian features. So she's mixed. So you get my kids together and you've got black, white, Chinese and Mexican all together. The question of, the questions of race and ethnicity and what, which race is better than the other are discussions we just really cannot have in our household. And they seem so silly and petty and ridiculous, quite honestly. And so he's come around, he's around my kids and so he sees all of that, he loves them and I think it's kind of softened him over time.

Grandmother's Complicated Relationship with the Church

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:00] Right, well, let me back up because I guess I'm just picking up on a few interesting points here. I mean here's your grandmother who is staunch Mormon, you know, goes way back, yet she herself does something a little bit rebellious in marrying a non Mormon.

Dustin Jones [00:22:19] And she, and her mother was a, was a Hancock. Her maiden, my great grandmother's maiden name was Hancock and she was born up there. I don't know this history. My grandmother has since passed away. I don't know why.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:31] Do you know if she received any

Dustin Jones [00:22:33] grief about marrying outside the fold? Yeah, probably. She never talked about it, so I don't know kind of what went on there. But he was, I mean he was a white man, so probably was a little better than my mother's situation.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:54] What was it like for your grandfather to come and kind of offer this apology and yet pretty much still tell you that he's a racist and can't be seen with you? What was that like for you?

Dustin Jones [00:23:06] For me, I'm just generally not a judgmental person. What I saw is this is a 70 year old man, that this was a very courageous act on his part to take this step and reach out to me at this point. We had never met. My mom had never really talked about him. He had not been around us as kids. He had missed out on our whole childhood. I really, I wanted to give him a chance to overcome this because I recognized that he was the one that was in the wrong. And it wasn't going to help the situation for me to point a finger or judge him, but to allow him just, he wanted to come forward. I knew that he was the one that was going to benefit from seeing that I'm not A creature. We're not creatures. We are human beings, just like you. And the interesting thing, because my mom wasn't married or my mom was. Wasn't married to my father when I was born. My last name is his last name because I've got Jones. Jones is her dad's name. I literally. My mom was his only child, and then she wasn't married when she had me. So I have the last name Jones. I'm his only namesake descendant. And so he. So. And then I've got a son as well that has the name Jones. And so he. I think he senses the connection there and he's just kind of overcome it. He sense. Has met with us and we've met with his siblings. I actually have met his. His, which would be my. My great uncles. I've met them. He's introduced us into his family. That's here. He's told them, yeah, this is my daughter's kids. It was kind of interesting going to meet with these octogenarians kind of at like an old restaurant, an Applebee's or something we went to for Sunday. Sunday brunch.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:24:51] But just for so many people, it's so important to carry on the name. Right. And here he's faced with this conundrum that he has the opportunity to have his name carried on and yet not in the way he had maybe expected or hoped for.

Dustin Jones [00:25:05] Yeah. And I. And because I didn't know him, and I just knew that he had essentially disowned my mom because of the race issue, I still didn't harbor any hard feelings because I just recognized and acknowledged he was a product of his time. That was just how they thought. And he never had done anything to me to harm me. I just felt always that he was the one that was missing out. So when he reached out, I reached out to him as well, embraced him and brought him into our family. And I did. I think any member of the church would. Should do or would want to do. And that's just to be Christlike about it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:25:39] Yeah, that's very graceful.

Dustin Jones [00:25:40] So we had his 75th birthday party at my house, and my kids celebrated him and they call him Grandpa Jones. And so I think it has really helped to just break down those walls, just him being exposed. But he was very open and admitting early on that he struggled for years and years and years with it. Because another part that I haven't shared with you is that my mother, after having me and. And moving to Arizona, she met my stepfather, who was also black, and so she ultimately married him but prior to them being married, they were. They. They lived out of wedlock and had a couple more kids. And so there was this. There was this pattern of my mom and her relationship and having kids with. With black men.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:23] Children with three black men.

Dustin Jones [00:26:24] There's three different. Three different black men, Absolutely. Yes. And so she. She lived with my stepfather and this for a number of years. And ultimately, and I don't know all the circumstances of how this transpired, but I know that prior to 1978, the revelation, she was actually excommunicated for these acts, which.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:47] For living with your stepfather, you mean?

Dustin Jones [00:26:50] Living with my stepfather father and having kids and they were not married. And I don't know what the practice was back in the 70s with respect to quote, unquote, single sister that's living with a man and maybe have had kids or whatever. They had kind of a common law type of marriage arrangement where they were living together. They were obviously committed, had two, three kids, but they hadn't married. And she was excommunicated. I've always wondered if there was an element of race involved, if it was the black thing. If this is. Again, this was prior to 78. I know that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:29] Meaning if she had been living with a white man and having children, was she active or inactive at this point?

Dustin Jones [00:27:36] She'd been completely inactive. Completely inactive. She'd been inactive.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:38] So they kind of went out of their way to excommunicate her.

Dustin Jones [00:27:41] Yeah, because this wasn't her home ward. It wasn't. I mean, she grew up in Winslow. She moved to Phoenix. She was here. My grandmother and her attempts to keep my mom in contact with the church would make sure that. That wherever she lived, the ward knew where she was. But I know that the ward that she was excommunicated from was not. I mean, it wasn't like she had been going there as an active member and all of a sudden fell away and did some things that were. They were. That were bad. And so then she was brought into a church disciplinary council. That wasn't the case. I think it was more of wherever she was living and they knew what she was doing. She was living in sin with this man, and she wasn't married, and. And she had kids. And so I think that's kind of more how it transpired. And so we ultimately didn't get baptized until I got baptized when I was 13, because my stepfather, who kind of saw all of this stuff happening, struggled with the church, struggled with the blacks issue and the priesthood issue and kind of some things related to church doctrine. And so he wouldn't allow us to get baptized, me and my younger siblings that were his direct kids.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:51] Right. And he was, I guess, taking the discussions or what.

Dustin Jones [00:28:57] He took the discussions a number of times up until the mid-80s when I ultimately got baptized. I got baptized in 86. Now I was in eighth grade at the time, got baptized in 86.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:10] And were you guys going to church by this point or.

Dustin Jones [00:29:13] Yep. By the time I was eight years old, we had moved into a ward where. And we kind of had set down routes and we started going to church quite a bit. I got involved in the Cub Scout program, and so I was in Cub Scouts and Webelos. So essentially was living the Mormon experience growing up in the church. I got to the age of getting the priesthood at 12, and I wasn't allowed to get the priesthood because I wasn't baptized. But I'd go to church. I was able to hang out with the deacons and all of that at 12. And ultimately by the time I was 13 and my father, my stepfather had gotten baptized or was getting baptized, was taking. Was more serious about the church.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:51] He finally joined as well.

Dustin Jones [00:29:52] Yeah, he finally joined and then allowed us to get. I think we got baptized within the same year that he got baptized. But he wanted to go first and so he got baptized first and then he allowed us. Me to get baptized and I think my younger brother, who was already of age to get baptized as well. And then after about a year or so after we, he and then us kids got baptized, my mom actually got re baptized right afterwards as well. So it was. It was a good time, kind of late, late 80s, where the family was kind of getting. Was essentially becoming full members of the church in that sense. From the time I was 8 years old.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:28] Yeah. So when you were 8, was that just you going by yourself or your mother was taking you or like my

Dustin Jones [00:30:33] mother would take us. The primary leaders would come by, like I said, whenever we move. My grandmother make sure that the warden knew where we were. Even my mother was an excommunicated member at this point. They were still. They still would reach out to us. They would still come by. I still had all these great leaders that would come by and take us to scouting activities and things like that. So we just definitely benefited from the arm of fellowship of the membership, coming out and helping us out and being members of the church. I mean, I wasn't baptized, but I can't tell you just because I wasn't baptized till I was 13, that I felt that I wasn't A member of the church. I've always been a member of the church. I was. I was blessed as a baby. And don't ever recollect not knowing primary songs. Remember singing primary songs. I'm a child of God. At 3 and 4 years old in primary, I just had the memories of being. And again, my grandmother, just making sure that we always felt like the church was ours.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:29] And with you, I know you've been in some leadership positions yourself, you haven't come across this idea that women get excommunicated because they're. Or especially inactive women who are not coming to church get excommunicated because they're living with somebody. Is that. Do you think that was very. Yeah.

Dustin Jones [00:31:49] I served in a bishopric. I was a counselor in a bishopric, and I've served on the high council, been through kind of church disciplinary administration of these types of things. I've read the handbook. I can't see where it would happen, quite honestly. Particularly they've got to be. I mean, thousands of women that have fallen away from the church in their teens, that are not married now, that are living in the same circumstances. And I can't imagine that we're not calling them all. Yeah. And I don't know if it was. Maybe it was a different time back in the 70s that this was going on again. I wonder if the element of race was there. I know that. I mean, when you look at what was written, what was said by McConkie and others at the time, to mix the races with the black person was not. I mean, was not taken lightly. I mean, there was a lot that was said about it. There was. When I. My grandmother talked to me around the time I was on. Going on my mission, and even after I came back, there was a lot of emotion in her that she really, really sensed at me. This book that she. That she gave me that talks about these. These doctrines, has all these quotes and has an annotated bibliography in the back of it. It's just this prophet and all the. Just quotes. I mean, it's just a list of quotes and the dates and the reference. I mean, it's just very, very clear.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:08] Can I give you two of those? As far as what? Maybe.

Dustin Jones [00:33:12] Maybe we're probably in this book. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:14] Yeah. I don't know if they were in that book, but I'm sure played a part in why your grandmother was having such a difficult time. This is. Brigham Young says, if the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so. That was in the Journal of Discourses. And then Wilford Woodruff, who says, and if any man mingle his seed with the seed of Cain, the only way he could get rid of it or have salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his blood upon the ground. It would also take the life of his children.

Guest [00:33:57] Wow.

Dustin Jones [00:34:00] I can just imagine how my. How my grandmother was feeling as she's. Yeah. Her daughter, who's a descendant of the pioneers, has chosen to leave the church and marry or have a child and mix the races with a black person. I mean, you read that quote, doesn't give a whole lot of wiggle room for. For relief. I can only imagine how she was feeling.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:30] Yeah, it's pretty severe language as far as what was put forth at some point, and I guess similarly to maybe with your grandfather. I don't know how much of this you can say. Well, it was a product of the time. However, to my knowledge, these. These types of quotes have never been recounted specifically or in some type of formal fashion. And so I can see how somebody like your grandmother would still believe that this is very much part of our doctrine.

Dustin Jones [00:35:01] Well, this is prior to 1978. So there was not even any revelation extending the priesthood. So this in her mind, all of these teachings. And we can get into specifics at some point about them. But all of these teachings at the time that I was born were real. These were teachings given by the prophets, seers and revelators of the church. And you believed them, you accepted them. You had many elders. The quotes that you gave go back over 100 years, but there were many, many things that were said in the 1940s and the 50s. There are official first presidency statements that reaffirm these positions. As the church was starting to get a little bit of heat from. From the civil rights movement and from different social changes about blacks and priesthood and treatment of blacks. The church was feeling some things, and so there was a need to issue statements. So there were some first presidency official statements issued explaining the church's position and essentially just reiterating it was the Lord's decision and it's it. The Lord will change these things when the Lord wants to change these things, but just kind of digging in the heels. But there were a lot of explanations given by leaders of the church, apostles, explaining these types of things that kind of. Now, in hindsight, as I looked at some of these quotes and I talked to some members of the church about them, now, they dismissed them as, you know, that was their opinion. That was just their opinion. That was their personal opinion. That wasn't church doctrine. And I always find that very puzzling because I don't hear that as much in our current time. Elder Packard gives a talk in General Conference. We don't just walk out and say, eh, that's his personal opinion. A true believing member of the church believes that this is an apostle who's a prophet, seer and revelator, and speaks for the Lord. And I know that my grandmother, when she's reading these quotes and reading these teachings by Joseph Fielding Smith, reading these teachings by Bruce R. McConkie, again, prior to 1978, this was the explanation of the things as they are, not just speculation as personal opinion. This was truth.

Historical Quotes on the Priesthood Ban

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:09] Okay, I have another quote. I can't help this. I'm sorry. This is Brigham Young again. If there is an elder here or any member of this church called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel, that is wrong. I really wish they would do it, but they cannot do it for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong. This is the reason, right?

Dustin Jones [00:37:37] Well, you're the prophet and you never give counsel. That's wrong. I mean, who's to question if you're a faithful, believing member of the church, you're not going to. And that was essentially from my childhood experience. And again, my grandmother's desire to teach me truth and my mom's desire to teach me truth. These statements and these quotes by these leaders were taught to me as absolute truths. As difficult as they were for me to understand, as difficult as they were for me to believe they were taught as absolute truths. I mean, I, again, being very inquisitive at a young age, I had my own copy, my own personal copy of Mormon doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie. And when you read through there, I mean, he doesn't mince words either about many of these things in terms of explaining who the Negroes are and where they come from. And I don't know if you want to talk about some of these things. We're kind of touching on some of the doctrinal things that my grandmother obviously was very much aware of in terms of my background. And it also was passed on to me.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:38:47] I definitely want to go there next. But before you do that, you bring up Bruce Armand Conkie. And I know that probably if anybody ever said anything after the priesthood ban was Lifted. I believe it was Bruce R. McConkie who said something to the effect of, you know, just ignore everything that has been said before. We were not working with, you know, the proper light and knowledge.

Dustin Jones [00:39:11] Limited light. We had limited light.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:39:12] Right. And, you know, and if. What do you make of that? I mean, was that the statement that the church made officially? Or like, was that. What was that?

Dustin Jones [00:39:26] Well, it's definitely not the official statement because again, it's just. It's quote, unquote, just by Bruce R. McConkie. But I think it was. He was so vocal in his explanations about race, about segregation, about Cain, about the descendants of Cain, the mark of Cain. I mean, you look at his writings, he was probably the one who spoke about these the most. And so when the revelation was announced in 1978, he. He had to say something. And so I think the appropriate thing for him to say was we spoke with limited light. And I believe that's a correct statement. I think he did speak with limited light, and I think that was his acknowledgement. But is he.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:40:11] But it really was almost a personal. It was his own personal statement. Acknowledgement. It wasn't an acknowledgement. That was an official statement by the church.

Dustin Jones [00:40:21] Even more than that, I mean, when you say everything that was said prior to this to disregard. I'm paraphrasing him. He wasn't speaking to. And I've looked at that talk. He wasn't speaking to the specific principles of who blacks are. When I read his statement about we spoke with limited light, all that was with respect to were the blacks going to get the priesthood? Brigham Young was saying they weren't going to get the priesthood to the millennium. Many others had said they wouldn't get the priesthood's millennium. Well, they got the priesthood. And it happened in 1978. So when he gives his talk later on saying, well, we spoke with limited light because obviously they've got the priesthood that's separate and apart from the other doctrinal things, the other teachings, the other statements with respect to Cain, the curse, and all these other things that are separate and apart from the statements that leaders had given that they would never get the priesthood. So again, I read that to me, when I read McConkie's statement about limited light is it had been said by many that blacks would not get the priesthood. Well, they got the priesthood, and so they spoke with limited light. But there's still these other tenants, these other doctrinal, these other teachings, these other principles that had been laid out in a library and discussed. They're all still there. That's all still there. And I don't believe that his statement swept all that away because in evidence of that is Mormon doctrine itself. The book Mormon Doctrine, where all this is in here explaining this. It was in print and you could buy it at Deseret Book until May of last year.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:51] Correct.

Dustin Jones [00:41:51] I mean they just stopped selling it. So my kid, anyone's kid could go into the store and you pick up Mormon doctrine. I mean unless you're, then, unless you're really sophisticated and nuanced with your gospel study, when you pick up a book that says Mormon doctrine, you believe this is Mormon doctrine.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:08] Well, especially written by a prominent leader in our church.

Dustin Jones [00:42:14] Yeah. And so I mean, and there's no

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:16] denouncement from the church saying this is not correct Mormon doctrine. Right, right.

Dustin Jones [00:42:21] I mean there's some, there's some, there's some comments. I believe at the beginning, there's a disclaimer of sorts at the beginning of Mormon doctrine. But again, most members of the church I remember even being, and I served my mission in New York City, members there in Harlem, in the Bronx, Brooklyn, they knew Mormon doctrine and they knew this book. And this is what people referenced as the doctrine. It's essentially it was the first compendium, it was the first encyclopedia of our Mormon theology in the modern era. So you go through there and look up a topic and look at the cross references and you got the explanation. So the fact that this would still be in print, sold at a church owned bookstore sends the message, send a strong message. Because even in here, I mean the copy I have was updated in 1978. It has the reference to the 1978 revelation. So this is an old one. This was updated in 1978 to acknowledge that the blacks got the priesthood. But the funny thing, Natasha, again under the priesthood section, it makes the acknowledgement, hey, we got a revelation. 1978, blacks got the priesthood and it still has all the cross references. But look at Cain, look at the pre existence, look at Sons of Perdition, it still has all of that in there. So again, when I look at Bruce Armer Conky's statement, it's only with respect to this section of his own book that talks about the priesthood not going to blacks. And then, hey, we got a revelation, 1978, everything we said about that is gone. All of the other sections in the book are still there. None of the other sections got edited that much from what I understand. Does that make sense?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:50] Yes, absolutely. Going back to your family and your grandmother specifically, because that's why we got off on the tangent, I guess of why your grandmother would feel the way she did. Can you expound a little bit for me on your relationship with her? You're telling me that she was huge influence in your life, a huge influence as to your membership in the church and even your feeling, you know, this kind of heritage with the church. Did you guys ever have a chance to kind of sit down and you kind of, I guess made reference to that as far as having some more in depth conversations about her feelings towards you and how she came to terms with these things. I mean at some point she's showing you off at a family reunion. So she obviously came to some.

Understanding the Doctrine Through Family Experience

Dustin Jones [00:44:43] Yeah, I believe that for her she was in my mind one that studied the doctrines, studied things, studied these books. That's why she had these books, the Church and the Negro. She had these different statements. She wanted to understand what the implication of her posterity was and them being black. I believe that once 1978 and the revelation of the priesthood was given, I think that that changed everything in her mind in terms of she really just focused on us being descendants of the Mormon pioneers and we have a special mission in the church to open people's eyes to the gospel. She always talked to us about the fact that there will be people that will listen to you all about the gospel, that will not listen to somebody else just because of your color, your skin, you will be able to open doors that others weren't. And so I always felt like ok, and maybe that's the reason why I was born part black. Because for me when you read the statement with some of these statements and some of the doctrinal explanations about the pre existence that was there, I always had, I had a hard time reconciling what I felt. I always felt that I was a good person. It's just more my nature, wish no harm on anyone. It was kind of inconceivable, some of these other teachings about my dark skin being because of acts in the pre existence things that I had done in the pre existence. So my grandmother really instilled in us that sense of pride and purpose within the church and being here to show a different face, to show that all are alike unto God and that this is the Lord's church, this is his kingdom and he is no respecter of person. For her, 1978 and everything that changed everything and we never really talked about it and she never, I never ever sensed any type of racial issues or anything like that from her. She definitely was very, very Proud of her grandkids, Very proud.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:54] And did she ever I guess try to explain to you how she felt at the beginning, like prior to 78 or she.

Dustin Jones [00:47:01] Well before my mission. She did have a heart to heart with me where she wept and almost that sense of apologizing for what she did feel about the sense of despair this Mormon pioneer heritage was somehow mixing with the black race and that she didn't know what that meant based on all the things that had been said, some of the quotes that you read, she struggled with that but she didn't get into trying. Well she did. I mean she talked to me about. I remember her talking to me about some of the doctrinal things that the pre existence and that our race just right out of Mormon doctrine. It's there too that our race is determined based on our agency and how we exercised our agency in the pre existence. That was taught by Bruce umraconki, it was taught by others before him that somehow your race was dictated by your pre existent ex. She talked about and she was just quoting from leaders of the church, you know, the, the mark of Cain. I remember her talking to me about Cain and how Cain's posterity was preserved through Ham, through Aegyptus. I mean this is right out of Pearl of great price. This is right out of the book of Abraham. She'd quote that and you could look at that and that's just what it was. And Cain sinned and he had the mark of Cain. It was the dark skin this passed on to Ham so that it would come after the flood. Ham was Noah's son, his wife was Aegyptus. And then he's essentially the father of the black race. And that race was marked with the curse and was never to get the priesthood. And that's essentially our Mormon theology. That's what with respect to black race it's in all these books and that's never been taken back. So my grandmother talked about that, that I remember in the. I remember hearing about. She was kind of funny because now we kind of chuckle about it but the whole lore of Bigfoot I remember. I don't know if you've ever heard these stories but I remember hearing these things as a kid about Bigfoot being Cain because Cain was marked and he would never, he would never die and he'd never, he'd walk and roam the earth forever.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:16] Yes, I've heard that it's kind of

Dustin Jones [00:49:19] a Mormon folklore now but as a 10 year old little boy and hearing these things and this is, this was Being. This was gospel doctrine. I remember being a kid going and checking out all the Bigfoot books at my elementary school because I just had this one understand what Bigfoot was like and everything. Because, I mean, you can. I mean, this. We chuckle about it, but there are references to it. Spencer W. Kimball references this notion, this lore. He teaches it not as lore. It's taught as though. Yeah. That Cain was roaming the earth. And in the book the Miracle of Forgiveness, there is a reference to this story, again, being perpetuated by apostle and modern prophet, that Cain was roaming the earth and he appeared to this man and he was hairy and this and that. So very believable to me. I mean, Spencer W. Campbell was the prophet when I was a kid, and he was talking about Cain being essentially being Bigfoot. And so you grew up with that. I mean, I just thought it was real. It was rather strange. I know by the time I got to mission age was kind of questioning and wondering, how can this be true? I mean, how can. Can. This is my. Is my skincare really a mark from Cain? And how do we know that. That I'm a descendant of Cain? How come it's not somebody else? And I used to always wonder, you know, how do we know it's not the Polynesians? Polynesians are darker than I am. I mean, some of the Polynesians are darker than we. So why are they not dark? Why are they. Why isn't the curse them? Or people from India, I bet people from India. There are a lot of people from India and Indians that are. That are darker. I mean, how do we know that's not the mark of Cain? So I was always looking at different ethnicities, trying to determine why my race, that the African Negro race was the one that was considered the mark of Cain. Again, it's lower, it's out there. It's been around. It's not something that's unique just to Mormonism. It's kind of a folklore that existed, has existed. I mean, it was used to justify slavery centuries ago, but it's been around for a long time. And I think what happened was Mormonism, Joseph Smith, it somehow made its way into the Book of Abraham, this thinking. And we made the connection from Ham to Cain originally. It was just. Most churches talked about descendants of Ham being black, being Africans, and Joseph Smith and Pearl, Great price Book of Abraham makes the connection from Ham up to. So you get that whole Canaanite lineage thing. So all that was kind of weighing. And my grandmother talked to me about those types of Things I know in her heart of hearts, she wasn't trying to instill teachings that were going to be disturbing. It was just, this is the way it was. I mean, it is what it is, and she can't explain it. The brethren have never explained it even to this day. She obviously was in no position to explain or denounce something that one of the apostles had said.

Race, Doctrine, and Personal Identity

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:10] Right.

Dustin Jones [00:52:11] And we're not talking just about Brigham Young or some of the others, John Taylor going way back. We're talking even her lifetime. These were leaders that she would listen to at conference. These were leaders that she would read in her books. They were contemporaries for her.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:25] Absolutely right.

Dustin Jones [00:52:26] So it wasn't stretching back 100 years and being able to kind of dismiss them as they were a product of their time, bring them in. It was different. This was. This was President McKay, this was McConkie, this was Joseph Fielding Smith. These were her contemporary leaders of her church. And this is how they explained it. She had nothing else to teach me but this. Well, what's so interesting, in that same vein, she wanted to make sure that I knew that I was chosen because I was pioneer stock. I had the white blood too. So there was something. I had something else in me too.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:59] Yeah, I guess it's. That's the point I was going to make. It's so interesting when I think of myself as a parent and trying to teach my children their divine worth and high self esteem and that they can trust themselves and they're good. Those messages that we want to give to our kids. Here's your grandmother in a position where she loves you and is obviously dedicated to you. And on the one hand she's instilling this pride and on the other hand she's instilling this shame with things that she's trying to make sense of herself. It's so hard for me to wrap my brain around what that would be like for her from an intellectual position and also from you receiving that at such a young age. I mean, I can't imagine at your developmental stages as a child that you would know how to even integrate that or to even know how that was affecting you. And that maybe now as an adult, you're maybe just getting kind of an insight or a clue as to how these types of messages infiltrated your life and affected your sense of self.

Dustin Jones [00:54:17] I can, as an adult, I can say that I remember being a young kid even before I was in adolescence and struggling with some of these teachings, because I remember looking at some of these things early on, even before I was 13 even before I got baptized, just because I knew that the question of race was an issue my stepfather was dealing with. I remember looking at some of these things and you read the statement that says the Lord placed on Cain a mark of dark skin and he became the ancestor of the black race. And a statement like that from a leader, who's a leader of your church, is an apostle and you're looking at the church as direction and wisdom and you're looking at these as they're inspired, you can't make sense of it, but you wonder how this can be. And I think as faithful members of the church on this issue of race and I've had members talk to me about this even recently. It's just one of those things you say, well you just have to have faith. And so you taught we believe you just have faith and you just kind of set it aside and don't let it fester because you don't want it to destroy your faith or destroy your testimony. But you just, you experience that cognitive dissonance, dissonance where it just doesn't seem to make sense. And I know for me statements like that or statements that being taught that my race, that I had done something in pre existence, that pre existent thing was really was the biggest burden, probably even more than the dark skin side of things. The notion that somehow I did something in a previous life that you have no recollection of, that I have no recollection of. But I somehow exercised my agency and the pre existence in a way that determined that I would be born through a black race and not get the priesthood or even my ancestors, they were in the same situation. I have no recollection of it created in me kind of this sense of a desire to prove myself, that I needed to somehow. It was almost like penance. I needed to somehow overcome or show or prove to Heavenly Father, prove to the Lord that I wanted to. To keep my second estate as I was taught. I mean that my. You kept your first estate by being faithful in the, in the pre existence and being born was your first estate. And part of these teachings that McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith and others had was that blacks were fence sitters. And I remember that term as a kid that being taught and reading some of these quotes that I was, that somehow in the pre existence I was a fence sitter which meant that I didn't know whether I was supposed to follow Jesus or follow Lucifer, that I was on the fence. And you can research that term, it's out there it exists the concept of a fence sitter. And so I was ambivalent somehow in whether I would follow Jesus Christ or not. And I remember struggling with that at 10, 11, 12 years old because it just didn't seem right. Because from the time that I was going to church, I loved the church. All I wanted to do was be at church as a kid. From the time I was 8 years old and going more actively, I was in love with the church. The church was my world. So it was just so incomprehensible to think that in my previous life I didn't like Jesus, I didn't want to follow Jesus. Are you kidding? That's all I want to do. I mean that's, that's. I just want to, I just all I want to do now why wouldn't I have done that? And the notion that my, my spirit was the same spirit that I had in the pre existence, it's just now, I just now have a mortal body. It didn't make sense, but it instilled in me this desire, this need to somehow attain or achieve my second estate. And so I just want to make sure I lived with exactness. I was going to do everything. I was going to go on my mission. I'm paying my tithing. I remember being a little kid and we didn't have a lot of money growing up, but I remember hoarding. I remember get a little emotional about this, but I remember wanting to live the teaching so much that I would hoard cans of food. I would hoard cans of food under my bed because I wanted to make sure we had a year's supply. I wanted to make sure that we were following the counsel of the brethren to have that year's supply of food in case something happened. So I remember stacking these cans of food under my bed. My mom not even knowing about it because I was going to be prepared and I would put these little containers of water and things like that. So I just got this sense of. It just didn't, it didn't seem comprehensible that I was not valiant in the pre existence and that was what dictated the skin color. But it also instilled in me this desire to really prove that I can live with exactness. And so I just started making very, very definitive choices. Black and white. The church is true, the world is false. I needed to live this way. I needed to do that. It was right and wrong. And I was one of those that didn't have a caffeinated drink literally until I think I was on my mission, towards the end of my mission only because some of the other elders had drank coke and I was like, you're drinking Coke? I remember being in the MTC and meeting missionaries that had had Coke and Dr. Pepper and I was thinking, oh my goodness, how can you do that? Heavenly Father's going to strike you down. But my thinking was so orthodox in the sense that I need to show Heavenly Father that I don't know what I did in the pre existence but I'm going to overcome this in this life and I'm going to live with exactness and I'm going to show and prove and I'm going to serve in every calling and I'm going to pay a 10% tithe, 100% tithing. I'm going to do my fast trapping, I'm going to serve my mission, I'm going to go on. I'm going to go on a mission, come back, get married in the temple. I'm going to do everything that the Lord wants me to do so that I can overcome that. Whatever I did in the pre existence and it may sound comical now, but I. It's what I thought, it's what I felt.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:00:20] I don't know that it sounds comical. I mean it's to me I just, you know, I have this image of you right now as this young kind of just, you know, light, you know, light in your eyes kind of kid and just wanting to please and do what's good. And so much mental energy being spent on trying to fix something that you don't even know how you did wrong. And it just goes against so many of our other doctrines. I mean the second article of faith that says we are not going to be punished for something that happened before us, we're going to just be accountable for our own mistakes and sins. When it comes to the pre existence, most of us, at least the white part of us, you know, we get these great affirmative type statements like well you were, there was like a pre calling, right? You were called before this time foreordained. Right, you were foreordained. And it kind of makes you feel special and it makes you feel like, wow, I must have done something right to be born into a family that has the gospel or to be in this position. We kind of have those messages that feed ourselves.

Patriarchal Blessings and Tribal Assignment

Dustin Jones [01:01:35] Chosen generation, you're of Israel, you're the

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:01:37] crown of the crop.

Dustin Jones [01:01:38] You were saved. Of Israel, you were saved for the last days, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:01:41] And here you're in the same church getting very harmful messages for your self Esteem and I just find it very tragedy traumatically sad.

Dustin Jones [01:01:55] Well, I remember struggling with some of these issues prior to receiving my patriarchal blessing. And I again, I've got this desire because I love the church, I love the gospel. I wanted to do everything that was church related. I can tell you that from the time I was baptized at 13, I never missed a Sunday. I did not miss a Sunday sacrament meeting. Church probably I think I was, it was after my mission. I was married. I remember. I mean, I think for some reason we couldn't go to church and it was just like the end of the world. This is all. This is probably maybe 10, 12 years ago. It was my first time missing a church meeting because of that desire to live with exactness. And so from the time I was going to church actively and was baptized, I took it very, very seriously. And I took the statements of the leaders very, very seriously because I took them as gospel truths. They were absolute truths. I did not understand them, but they were the truths. Who was I to question the Lord when the leaders themselves who are making these statements and explanations are saying we don't know. It was the Lord's will, this is what it was. I remember going and getting my patriarchal blessing. And I knew enough about patriarchal blessings to know that you go get a patriarchal blessing because you want to know your lineage, you want to know what the Lord, you want to know about that the patriarch speaks for Heavenly Father, that he's opening up. He puts his hands on your head and he talks to you and he tells you about your pre existence and he can't talk about the pre existence and he can talk about your life here and he can talk about things that are going to happen to you in this life, what blessings you got. And so I was very attuned to anything that would reference the pre existent life and things like that. Unfortunately, there are some statements in my patrical blessing that say that I was one of Heavenly Father's children that accepted the plan advocated by our elder brother Jesus Christ wherein we were to come to this earth and be given experiences and through free agency prove ourselves worthy. You supported this plan and were promised great blessings if you were true and faithful to the covenants. You made that statement right there at the very beginning. My petrified blessing gave me great comfort because to me that's telling me that I wasn't a fence sitter. It's telling me that I championed and supported the plan of Jesus Christ and the pre existence and that was important to me. I remember Feeling very emotional about that. That was the truth, because I had struggled with it. I got my patriarchal blessing. You got baptized and you could get your patriarchal blessing. You had to wait a year before you could get it. I got it a year after I got baptized.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:41] You've had it like when you were 14.

Dustin Jones [01:04:43] I was 14 years old. I wanted that petrical blessing because these issues of rap, the pre existence, the doctrines, Cain, all these different things, even at 14 years old, were weighing on my mind. I was thinking about these things. I've just always been kind of a thinker and an analytical person and I was thinking about them when it came. And so that statement's in the patriarchal blessing. When it came down to the question of lineage, I wanted to know my lineage and everyone I knew that had gotten a patriarchal blessing to their lineage. And I wanted to know that great blessing that came to me. When that portion of the blessing came, it was different and it references that I would receive all the blessings of Israel and I will receive all the blessings promised to the ancient patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and that these blessings are yours by reason of adoption into the house of Israel. That's it. No Ephraim, no statement that says, you are of the tribe of Ephraim, you are of the tribe of Manasseh, no Reuben, no one, no one else. And that was the end of the blessing. And I thought, okay, what does that mean? I read it and I got the official written copy of it. So I remember talking to leaders about my patriarchal blessing and the omission of any specific tribe, any, any lineage. It references that I'm adopted into the house of Israel. And I didn't know what that meant for a while, obviously, but I was curious about it. I remember asking my seminary teacher about it because I attended that religiously. I was not going to miss any seminary. I mean, my freshman year of high school when I got this blessing was the Book of Mormon year. And I just loved it. Got into the Book of Mormon, had a great experience and loving seminary and wanting to learn everything I could. And not in specific reference to a question that I posed to my seminary teacher. But I remember distinctly a lesson we had in the class. This was before I got the petrichal blessing, if you can imagine this, before I got the petrichal blessing, I remember sitting in the class and we were talking about lineage seminary. And I remember the seminary teacher putting on the board, he had this little, this vertical scale and he was talking about kind of what you were saying. Natasha about the elect of God being Israel. And he said he put them at the cream of the crop, the Israel. And then he had Gentiles and they had Canaanites. And he had these three groups. These were the three groups I remember him putting on the board. Israel. It was kind of like a bar chart. And so Israel was kind of small and then Gentile was a little larger and then Canaanites were a little larger. And he had these three groups of people there. And I think he was talking about in the context of the gospel going throughout the world and Israel getting it first and then it going to the Gentiles and then to the Canaanites, descendants of Cain in 1978. But I remember him talking about these three groups and talking about Israel being chosen and we being the class as a whole, collectively being of the. Of Israel and being the chosen of the chosen. And I remember sitting, this is before I got my Patrick blessing, sitting, kind of looking at the cane thing at the bottom that, that tier, that lowest tier of Heavenly Father's children and still having. And struggling with that in my mind after having read all these things and wondering what in the world did I do Existence, what did I do? And I. And I struggled with that because it just didn't make any sense to me, if you can imagine, because it was, it was incomprehensible. But again, it was what it was. These were the groups and I was clearly Senator Cain. So I get my Patrick blessing. I remember asking him about did he

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:08:43] say anything that you were the descendant of like. Or you just already knew this doctrine. And so

Dustin Jones [01:08:52] I knew the doctrine. He was giving explanation of just of ethnicity. Probably we were covering something in the Book of Mormon about the Gentiles and the Gospel going forth to Gentiles and going throughout the world. And it's probably his attempt to just kind of explain again, this is what was on the books. I was in high school in the mid late 80s. This was only 10 years after the priesthood. All the books and all the statements that were. They were still in print, they were still in circulation. I'm sure he was taught these things himself. And when he was in high school, he graduated. I know he graduated high school in the 70s, late 70s. So I'm being educated by people that grew up under these teachings as well. And so I can't necessarily fault them for using the resources from the Brethren. How would anyone say that these were not approved teachings if they were coming from the Brethren? So it was his way of explaining race and ethnicity and things like that at the time. But I remember talking to him after I got my patriarchal blessing about the lineage issue. And my blessing not referencing any specific lineage, not of one of the tribes. And what does that mean? And the comfort I got was that, yes, the statement says that you're by reason of adoption, you are of the. You. You will receive all the blessings by reason of adoption into the house of Israel. So there clearly the blessing is. Is. Is a. Is affirming and confirming that I'm not blood wise, I'm not of Israel. Right. I mean, is there any other way to interpret that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:10:27] Right.

Dustin Jones [01:10:28] That my lineage, I'm not of Israel. And at the time, again, lineage. I think nowadays we teach, we talk about lineage from a more spiritual side of things.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:10:37] But I think even then, I mean, the lineage thing of Israel, I mean, that would be anybody who's not a Jew. Correct. So I mean, that was a lot of us. It wasn't just.

Dustin Jones [01:10:48] But I think there were a lot of statements by a lot of leaders that talked about the blood of Israel making its way to the Americas. I believe that Joseph Smith is a direct descendant of Israel through. I mean there's references to that statements about that. I believe some of the other leaders. There was all these.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:11:07] I just wonder about the Gentiles, you know, like even back in the days of Jesus. And I'm not sure that the gentiles were considered of Israel.

Dustin Jones [01:11:15] They weren't of Israel.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:11:16] Right?

Dustin Jones [01:11:17] Yeah, they weren't the lineage of Israel. And so, yeah, that would be a lot of other people. So the reference in my patriarchal blessing to say that I was adopted in the house of Israel, it was different than everyone else. I knew everyone else.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:11:31] You were adopted just like the rest of us were adopted, but we were adopted into a specific tribe and you for some reason weren't. That's what's confusing to me.

Dustin Jones [01:11:40] But does your blessing. But your blessing and I've never met anyone else's whose blessing says you're adopted into the house of Israel to the tribe of it. Just as you're of Israel and you're of Ephraim.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:11:50] Right.

Dustin Jones [01:11:51] It was just you're of. And that was it Mine specifically called out and said, you're adopted in house. It was. So I wasn't probably because of my family history a little bit. I'm probably understanding and thinking about, okay, adoption means you're not of something, so you're adopted into. So you're kind of grafted in, grandfathered and brought into a situation.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:12:10] So I'm looking at my own experience because I don't come from, you know, obviously pioneer heritage. So when I would ask those questions like how. How do they know that I'm of the line of anything, they would just explain it in the terms of, well, whether or not you are or not, by blood, you've been adopted into it. So maybe that's why I'm confusing the actual verbiage in my blessing versus what I was told, you know, as how to interpret it.

Dustin Jones [01:12:37] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:12:37] But you're saying that your verbiage was actually different.

Dustin Jones [01:12:41] Yeah. Mine clearly says you are adopted into the house of Israel, different than others of my, even my mission companions and friends who were of Israel, of the tribe of Ephraim, of Israel, of the tribe of Manasseh, or of Judah. A very, very clearly declaration that they are of Israel. My blessing says I'm not of Israel, but I'm entitled to that. I will receive the blessings. Kind of a future statement. I will receive the blessings of Israel by reason of my adoption into the House of Israel.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@saber rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Guest [01:13:33] Come, come ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy Wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless care from us to drive to the San Jo Hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is high Tis not so, all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your loans Fresh courage take Our God will never us for sake soon we'll have tale to tell oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. And should we die before our journey's through happy day all is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell. But if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this glory swell. Oh, all is well all is well all is well all is well all is well oh, all is well. All is away all is away. Sam.

Dustin's Patriarchal Blessing Addendum

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 257

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:00:00] One. Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear.

Dustin Jones [00:00:27] And so there's that comfort that you get that. And so I questioned that. I wondered about that for a long time. Through high school, when I got to college, I remember talking to my institute. I loved institute as well. I was one of those again, I'm trying to live everything with exactness. I'm going to institute, taking every class I can fit into my schedule to learn the gospel, preparing to go on a mission. I remember talking to my institute teachers about it, Them being very, very knowledgeable about gospel and the scriptures. And they always. They always thought this was kind of puzzling as well. They've never heard of a blessing that just says. Just says, you're adopted in Israel, but no tribe. And they're like, yeah, you probably should have a tribe. Everyone is of a tribe. I've never heard of anyone not being of a tribe. And so here again, yeah, I haven't

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:11] heard of that either.

Dustin Jones [00:01:12] And so here I'm like, okay, Dustin's different. Dustin's different. Why am I different?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:16] You're special.

Dustin Jones [00:01:17] I just want to be like everybody else. Please let me blend. And so I. Right before I go on my mission, I meet with the stake president at the university in Tucson. So I have a stake president, Tucson, who I share this with. And he says, no, you need to go back to the patriarch in your home state, back in Phoenix, and have him do an addendum to your patriarchal blessing. And I said, what's that mean? He says, essentially, an addendum is he opens the blessing, adds a bit more, and then he closes it. He can say what he wants to add a whole bunch more blessings or anything else. He can do that. But you're specifically going because you need to have the lineage thing clarified. And then if he wants to pronounce any other blessings, he can do so, but it's an addendum to the blessing. And so he. He filled out. I had a recommend, a recommend to go back to the patriarch. I call the patriarch back in Phoenix and scheduled appointment to go back to get an addendum to my patriarchal blessing. He was kind of puzzled. He's like, we're doing a what your blessing? And he probably researched and pulled up my blessing. He'd given me four or five years before.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:23] So this is the same patriarch. Yes.

Dustin Jones [00:02:25] So I went back to the same patriarch that had given me my blessing when I was 14 years old. So I'm now 18, almost 19. And I remember going and meeting with him. And I remember in Anticipation of going back to get my blessing, I'm like, okay, I know I'm going back to get my lineage clarified, which will be nice just because it's been a lurking question. But you know, I really hope he opens up and tells me like, I'm gonna be rich, I'm gonna have this. This is an 18 year old mindset. I'm like, he can open up the blessing, he can tell me so many more things. Now I get to have a second bite at the apple with this petrick of blessing things. As this 18 year old, very, very selfish kind of going. I hope he tells me I'm gonna have like this beautiful wife and we have this and I'm gonna have that. And so I go and I meet with the patriarch. And it was very anticlimactic. Quite frankly. The patriarch was a little puzzled that I would be asking for clarification on this issue. And he was an older man and he just was very, very, he was nice about it, but he said, no, Dustin, there's no need to modify your blessing. Your blessing says you are adopted into the house of Israel, that you will receive the blessings promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But there's no need to clarify anymore. Your lineage, you, you are the lineage of Cain. But your blessing clarifies that you are adopted into the house of Israel and you will get the blessings of those who are of Israel. So for me, I, I just left there. I didn't get any special reopening of a blessing to give me worldly things. But even more importantly, I walked out of there just with an affirmation, confirmation that this, this Canaanite doctrine teaching was real. And that's again, I did something in the pre existence, I was born with this. But now here I'm on earth. If I live righteously according to my patriarchal blessing, I could receive, I will receive all the blessings promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So for me, and this is post

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:36] the priesthood being given to blacks. This is a 1998.

Dustin Jones [00:04:41] This is 1990. Yeah, I got the initial blessing in 87. This is now the spring of 1991.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:48] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:49] Which is kind of what blows my mind because you know, if I would hear of this story, you know, I don't know, among the peers of my parents or, you know, I'd be like, well, it'd be easier to maybe think, well that was just.

Dustin Jones [00:05:02] And I know this man that had served as my patriarch was a very good man. I mean he, I believe he was even my family's home teacher when I was in high school, he had served as the bishop of the ward. I think he had served in other leadership calling before he was called as the patriarch. A very diligent man. I mean, one of those that I, that I remember hearing. He fasted the day he was going to give the petrified blessing. And so when he spoke to you in your blessing, he was speaking for God. It was inspired. There was no reason ever to question doubt or anything again. These were truths. You're a descendant of Cain. Your blessing is very, very clear. You're adopted into the house of Israel and you will receive all the blessings promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If you are righteous and you live and you make choices, they're in accordance with the gospel.

Black Members Navigating Church Culture

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:51] Well, similar to your grandmother's position. I mean, good people in the church doing what they know to be right, trying their best, but if nobody above that takes responsibility or changes like you're saying what the original doctrine is, then we're just going to assume that's it's still the doctrine.

Dustin Jones [00:06:12] And I can tell you I've had experiences in my adult life where I know that people still believe these things. They still believe these things. And so this was my experience with my patriarchal blessing. In college, I met another African American

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:28] gal friend of mine ask you, do you know, is this common amongst.

Dustin Jones [00:06:32] I've never, I never really talked to. I see. I was curious about this as well. I was like, okay, am I the only one that has this type of a scenario? Are there others? Is this every black? So I met another black member of the church while I was in college. I remember just being very, very curious as we became friends. And I had enough trust with her to ask her about these things as well. And her blessing was similar. Her blessing didn't say adoption into the house of Israel. It said something to the effect that she would, she can receive all the blessings in Zion as a member of the House of Israel and that she would be eligible for these blessings. She's eligible for the blessings promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Manasseh and Ephraim. But again, no specific tribe and similar

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:19] to yours in the sense of you're eligible or you will. So it's all future tense.

Dustin Jones [00:07:25] It's future tense that you will get these blessings in the future. And again, I don't know other people's blessings if they speak in this futuristic tense because my Petra talks a lot about things that are futuristic. If you live this way, you'll have this blessing of that. So I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the futuristic aspect of it. It was more the omission of a tribe, of a specific tribe, both in mine and in her.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:48] Your siblings, because they're also biracial like you are. And do you know about if they've been given a tribe or not?

Dustin Jones [00:07:57] My brother, who is two and a half years younger than I am, I think he got his blessing. I think he got his blessing after I had gone back the second time for my addendum, my clarification thing. And he's of Ephraim, his.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:16] So again, the same patriarch.

Dustin Jones [00:08:18] And I believe it's the same patriarch because my parents never moved. It would have been the home war, the home stake, the home patriarch and his blessing references Ephraim. And I believe my other siblings were the same Ephraim. I don't remember them ever having any kind of. Any anomaly, something that they were like, what is this? Why is mine different? And I remember being curious, wondering if

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:39] maybe the visit you'd had with him had maybe sparked his own thinking of it.

Dustin Jones [00:08:46] I wonder. I wonder if that had something to do with it. I can tell you I don't believe there were any other blacks that went to him to get their patriarchal blessings in the time that I got mine the first time in 87. I know there weren't any in my ward. There weren't any in my stake.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:03] Like this patriarch had not blessed a lot of African Americans or blessed.

Dustin Jones [00:09:07] No, no, no, no. I think I would. I would be very, very comfortable saying I was the first and then just my family, because there weren't any others in our stake. I mean, he would have only been giving blessings to people in our stake. And there weren't any other black families that I recall ever at anything. And so I probably was his first. It was 1987, nine years after the revelation. I know he had served in bishoprics and leadership prior to. So he understood the doctrines. He was a very devout man.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:36] Yeah.

Dustin Jones [00:09:36] I mean, I don't think there was any question in his mind blacks were descendants of Cain. Why would he have thought anything else?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:42] Right.

Dustin Jones [00:09:43] As a faithful member of the Church, why would he question Joseph Fielding Smith? Why would he question Bruce Omer Conkey's reasoning and thinking of who blacks were? So I believe in that. He gave the blessing. He spoke for the Lord. I mean, there was no question in my mind that was the Lord's will. This blessing I have in front of me was dictated by the Lord.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:04] Interesting.

Dustin Jones [00:10:05] And so I took it at that. And so meeting this other friend in college and her having a similar blessing where there was no tribe assigned to her. It just said that she would be eligible for the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets. Kind of interesting verbiage again.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:22] Yeah, definitely.

Dustin Jones [00:10:23] But also from a personal self esteem. It reinforced that. Good grief, what did I do? What did I do in the pre existence that I was assigned to this race? But I don't know, I questioned it. I wondered, but I had enough faith in the church, I had enough faith in the leaders, in the brethren, these men of God. If they couldn't explain it, I was never going to be able to explain it. It was what it was and I just accepted it. I got called on a mission to serve in New York City and I knew in New York City I was going to interact with blacks and people of color of different ethnic groups.

Missionary Service and Racial Teachings

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:11:17] And did you, can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, did you find yourself repeating these types of same doctrinal teachings to those who you were teaching now? And this is now early 90s, I'm

Dustin Jones [00:11:30] assuming this is 91 to 93 is when I served in New York City and I served in a Spanish, it was a Spanish speaking mission, so I was primarily with Spanish speaking members. But there were Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, those primary national backgrounds. And so I didn't teach any African Americans per se in Harlem. I lived in Harlem but I was focused on the Spanish speaking members. But we would have some interesting discussions times in our apartment with the, with the elders when we lived in, when I was on my mission. And many of them, this is what they believed as well. This is what they were taught. The Canaanite thing was there. It was something that they didn't have to live. So oftentimes I would ask questions and try to get their perspective on things. They didn't know how to respond. They didn't know I was more of the, again, probably even 19 years old, the inquisitive, intellectual young missionary who spent p day studying and studying. I remember the elders getting mad because Elder Jones wanted to sit and read Jesus the Christ and they wanted to go play basketball. I was like, I'm in my book, brethren, I'm in my book. And so I'm reading, I'm reading articles of faith, I'm reading Talmadge, I'm reading. I mean I read everything I could get my hands on. I remember buying books on at this time again, just loving, loving the scriptures and loving the Gospel. I was, I was determined I was going to go back and be a seminary teacher. I want to be seminary teacher or law. I was going to go into law seminary. That was it. And so I just really got into understanding, trying to understand these things because I would grapple with them, but they were. But I hope you get the sense of, I believed it because there was no reason not to believe them. And to not believe them would be a sign of me not showing faith, not showing well.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:23] And it would put you back into that kind of conundrum of, you know, now if you don't believe, if you don't follow, then you're kind of proving that, yeah, you were lesser to begin with. You're back to the kind of fence sitter position.

Dustin Jones [00:13:38] Absolutely. You know, you were kind of caught

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:41] in that catchphrase, draw the line.

Dustin Jones [00:13:42] And I'm going to follow this, I'm going to believe this, and I'm not going to question it. And the teachings are there. And I really, again, I would look at other ethnic groups and the issue of race. And the only other group kind of in our Mormon theology or Mormon teachings, it's another group that had dark skin, were the Lamanites. You got the Book of Mormon. You had the discussion about Lamanites, and they have a dark skin as well. And so I would think about, they're the Lamanites. And I do remember about being about 20 years old, kind of on the mission, going, who says that? That my race is the Negro? The Negroes are the descendants of Cain. Why can't it be one of these other groups? And why isn't it the Polynesians? Why isn't these other groups? And I'd look at Polynesians, I'd look at them, their physical features. I had. I'd met Tongans, I'd seen Samoans, and I'd look at their skin, look at mine. I look at some of the features, and I'm like, you know, they look like they have African blood in them. They look black. And my younger brother, who is a little darker than I am, people would always think he was a Samoan or a Tongan. They were always saying, you Tongan? Are you Samoan? He's like, no, my mom's white, my dad's black. But from his physical features, you'd think he was Polynesian. And so I'd look and I go, you know, why did they get to have the priesthood? I bet they have African blood in them. There's no way you're going to convince me that there's no African DNA. There's no genes, something there. I don't Think we talked about DNA yet back in the 90s as much, but it was more genes, I would say. What genes do they have? They've got to have some genes, some blood that has African in them.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:14] Well, this is such an interesting point because if you follow Mormon doctrine, the curse of dark skin has always been kind of put towards sin. You know, that's sin related. So, yeah, whether you're Hispanic or Polynesian or any type of race where you're not going to be, I guess, Caucasian, there's that inferment that, yeah, this had to do at some point with sin. And so why is it that we, even though they're all sinful, supposedly, why is it that only one group had to do with not having the priesthood? And to me, I guess, I mean, does this just jump all the way back to slavery? Is that, is that really what this is about? That because of the issues around slavery. Back at the times of, I mean, back in the times of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, they weren't dealing with Polynesians and Asians and you know, they were dealing with African American slaves.

Dustin Jones [00:16:19] Right. And that's. And yeah, there weren't any Polynesians that they had to deal with the Native Americans because of our theology, because of the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith said, the Native Americans were descendants of the Lamanites. And so we, we prescribed the Lamanite on them. And so there was obviously no priesthood restriction. From the Book of Mormon we learned that they were chosen people, the Lamanites, and that the Book of Mormon was written to redeem them and to bring the Lamanites to a remembrance of their God. So you have Joseph Smith and the early pioneers going on missions, going to these places. I don't think it's any accident that they, I mean, the church has been over in Polynesia and Hawaii and those islands for 100 years because of the belief that there's the reference in the Book of Mormon that Hagoth, that he, he boarded a boat and took a bunch of people off the western coast, I believe is what the Book of Mormon talks about. And that he sailed westward and he took a couple trips and then he was lost to the rest of the Nephite people. And so one of the prophets, I can't remember who it was, said that essentially because it was the west coast and he got off on a boat and he went over towards the west, that the Polynesians are Lebanonites. And that has been part of our teachings on race for over 100 years. And so the Polynesians are descendants of Hagoth. I believe there is a quote. I remember looking at it when I was in college in the institute manual. There was an institute manual. It had this quote in it. I can't remember which of the modern prophets was over there dedicating the Polynesian Islands, Hawaii. And he was talking about Hagath. He references Hagath specifically and talks about them being descendants of the Lamanites. And Lehigh's seed, I think, is what he talks about. Lehi seed. So the Polynesians, because of this, have had a different status within the church. Absolutely. It was different for them because they were tied to Lamanites. And theologically, in our church doctrine, there was no way ever to really have anything that was. That was negative because the scriptures that we believe in, both the Book of Mormon and then modern revelation celebrate it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:18:30] Yeah, it gives them the rights.

Dustin Jones [00:18:31] Welcomes. It gives them that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:18:32] And it gives them the rights of the tribe of Israel. I mean, that's really what Manasseh.

Dustin Jones [00:18:37] Absolutely. But Africans here. I mean, Joseph Smith was actually. He was not pro slavery. He was an abolitionist. I mean, the church in our history got in a lot of trouble in Missouri because the Saints, many of the early converts, were northerners and they were abolitionists. And when they're in Missouri and the Missourians hear that the Mormons were with their polygamy and they're being abolitionists, I mean, there was a double whammy there. They wanted the Mormons out of Missouri for those. For those reasons. But grappling with race, I think, after Joseph Smith died, because we know that when Joseph Smith was around, there were some that were some blacks that were ordained. They did get the priesthood. And Joseph Smith's time.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:24] Yeah, that's what's happening. So, I mean, I think Joseph Smith was obviously very progressive for his time. I'm sure he was still a racist in some regards. I'm sure you couldn't escape it at the time by any means. But he did give the priesthood to black men. And then it wasn't really until they migrated to Utah and Brigham Young was faced with the slavery issue and whether or not the Southern, you know, converts that were coming from the south with slaves into Utah, whether or not Utah was going to be a slave state, that we start seeing some of these quotes that are, you know, kind of horrific.

Dustin Jones [00:20:06] Yeah, it was in 1852, and, yeah, it was the territory of Utah. And Joseph Smith, Brigham Young gives a very passionate speech. And yeah, Utah was the first state to allow for slavery. I mean, that was the only territory I think was still just a territory at the time, but it was definitely west of the Mississippi. It was the. It was going to be the slave state. And, yeah, it was. You had a lot of saints that were coming from the south that were bringing their slaves. There were a few that freed slaves that came across as pioneers. I remember learning these stories. I didn't learn these until I was older, probably 1920, going on my mission. I started doing more research on some of this, and it was. It was news to me that there were actually blacks that came across and came to Utah. I didn't know that. And that Brigham Young had a man that came. I believe it was in his company, it was in his wagon that came with him. So I started learning about more of the African American history as it relates to Mormonism. It was just something that you just didn't hear about until very recently. You just never heard about the black Mormon contribution to our Mormon history. I would love to have heard all that when I was a kid. I'm sure my grandmother would love to have heard that. It just was not a part of any of our books because, again, of that. Of the dark skin, the curse, that type of. That was all you read about blacks. And maybe there was a desire not to acknowledge more their contributions at that time.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:42] Right. Okay. So all the talk on adoption has me completely tangenting here. So I apologize. Back to your mother's story. She had given up her first child out of wedlock for adoption, and to this day, you don't have any contact with that. With that half brother of yours. Correct?

Dustin Jones [00:22:09] There's no correct. There's nothing there and very little information to find him. I know my mom, when I was. When he would have been 18, she was really struggling that he might come find her. I know that was. That was a. She was. She was very anxious about that, very stressed about that. It hasn't happened. I've looked. I've looked on the Internet to try to find. I'm really at a loss as to where to begin. I have. I have a birthday date and the hospital.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:39] Okay, interesting. So then what kind of. Going back to your own personal story. What kept her from putting you up for adoption as well? Because it was also out of wedlock. Were your parents your biological father? Was this something that he was gonna. I mean, were they together for a while so that they kept you, or was he quickly out of the picture? Or what was your.

Dustin Jones [00:23:01] I think they were together for a very short period of time, but right after I was born talking to my grandmother about these things before I went on my mission or maybe right after, as I'd grown up talking about some of these adoption issues in my childhood, there was a. There was some discussion. I remember her telling me about my mother placing me up for adoption as well, because this was now the second time, and it was still not accepted, and she was struggling with that. And I think at time, the. This period, this attempt, my grandmother wanted to have me placed in LDS Family Services into the church's adoption agency. But at the time, the church didn't accept black kids. And so that was not an option.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:49] Oh, wow.

Dustin Jones [00:23:51] So they wouldn't receive or place a black child. And again, this is. So this is all started kind of this baggage. My grandmother, I can just imagine her just. She just does not know what to do with her daughter and now her grandson. And so this kind of.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:24:09] I mean, that's the. Even today, that's kind of the counsel given to, you know, young girls who are pregnant to place their child with a family that can raise that child in the church and give them the, you know, blessings of a ceiling and etc. Etc. So even if your mother wanted to have done that, she couldn't have done that.

Dustin Jones [00:24:29] Oh, yeah. It just was not. Not an option to go that route for her. And so my relationship with my mother was very, very strong. We're very close. Because as my grandmother told me, she really fought to keep you. She was adamant that she was keeping her baby. She was not going to. After having been traumatized by the initial placement of her first son, she wasn't going to allow that to happen again. And so she and I have a very strong bond. She's very loyal to me. I'm very close to her. I just grew up with that sense of her possessing me. I was her boy. That's all there was to it. But I could sense, probably because of the loss, potential loss.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:25:14] Right. Well. And I'm wondering if out of the. Like, I guess I'm just wondering, you know, it seems like you got most of your doctrinal background, as far as your race, from your grandmother. Was your mother also aware of all these things and did she address them and talk about them with you, or do you think that if your grandmother, for instance, hadn't been around that you wouldn't have been as aware of these types of teachings?

Dustin Jones [00:25:40] I probably would not have been aware because my mother was less active and then was excommunicated. She just kind of inactive, really. Even beyond that, I wouldn't have gotten most of this if it wasn't for my grandmother who grew up. I mean, these are the teachings. And she's one, like I said, kind of being the genealogist. She had the big library of all the church books and. And she had this Church of the Negro, and she had. I remember they also gave me. There's another old one that's called it's yous and Me, Lord, My Experience as a Black Mormon, written by Alan Cherry. And this is an autographed copy I have of this. I don't know exactly where my grandmother got this, but this was another book that I got as a kid. This is a 1970 copy of this book, again, pre1978 revelation. So I was given this. I remember reading this as a teenager. I remember reading that book as a teenager. All these different things. But it was more my grandmother because she was more kind of the scriptorian, the family. I mean, that was just kind of her role as the matriarch. She saw herself as making sure all of her posterity knew their heritage, knew where they came from. And for better or for worse, she instilled in me the Mormon pioneer heritage. But she also felt it was her responsibility to teach me these things that the Brethren had taught about my race. But from her perspective, the way she saw it was that because I was biracial, there was a reason for it, and that I have this pioneer Mormon part of me that's supposed to elevate, it's supposed to help out. And so that was her explanation, her understanding, her justification for the mixed race is that from her perspective, I, I was just a white Mormon kid, but she knew that genetically and race, the way I was born, I was black as well. And so all these things. So she kind of coupled the two understandings, this Mormon heritage, back to 1830 pioneers. This is our role, this is our mission in life, to bring, to pass eternal life of man. We've got to do these different things, spread the gospel. And. And you're black and you're to help out the black race. You're to help out people of color. You're supposed to do these different things and you carry both of these responsibilities. But she didn't shy away from teaching me what the leaders had taught her, which were the teachings. I mean, these were the teachings, doctrines, policy, whatever you want to call it is what the Brethren, how they explained it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:25] And do you think that your mother bought into these things as well, that she believed them as well and was fine with the fact that you were being taught these things.

Dustin Jones [00:28:34] She did, because I talked to her about these things as well. And she, she, she wasn't, she didn't question them either. I've never ever, my mom's never ever said, well, that leader, they're wrong. They don't know what they're talking about. I mean, that was just not part of my wiring by this point. With these things, she'd accept that she would do, she would be in rebellion, that she would not follow the leaders. But were they wrong? No, absolutely not. They were always right. Just like that quote, Brigham Young's quote, right.

Raising a Multiracial Family in the Church

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:05] So now as a father of four and like you're saying, you know, with all of these, you know, you've got obviously a very multiracial home. What, you know, can you even imagine teaching your kids these types of thoughts, you know, these kinds of teachings and doctrines and telling them that there's something inherently wrong with them and that they are now to be held responsible for something that they can't even remember doing, but that they still need to take responsibility for that and that their God expects them to kind of just accept this about themselves.

Dustin Jones [00:29:40] No, no, absolutely not. And part of growing up and seeing different things, it's taken me a long time to come to terms with. I just don't believe the race based theology. I mean, I can't accept that the color of my skin is the result of something that I did in the pre existence. I can't, I can't believe that with respect to black race. I can't believe that with respect to Asians. I mean, you look at some of the quotes by some of the leaders, even just 40, 50 years ago, some of the things that Mark E. Peterson, Elder Markey Peterson, one of the apostles said about, I mean Chinese and Asians and Hawaiians, I mean it's the same type of, I mean there are talks that he's given where he would explain why God is a segregationist. And he was very much an advocate of segregation. And he explained that, well, God segregated the races. If he wanted one race, there would have been one race. And you just kind of go, huh, really? But I have to accept that these men believed this, this was true to them and it was taught to many people as a truth, as a parent. Now today my kids, again, four races, black, white, Chinese, Mexican. And I look at them and the funny thing that genetics are. My oldest, has my skin color, has many of my African American features. She has my nose, she's got. It's funny thing, she has kind of her Grandmother's Asian eyes, but she's my skin color. And she has more kinky curly hair. My second daughter is one that when she was born and I'd take her to the store, people thought I was kidnapping her because she's as white as snow. She's white, white, white, white. But she's mine. She's all mine. And she has little freckles all over her face and she's absolutely adorable. My next child is my son. He's got my complexion, but he has this curly kind of wavy black straight hair. It's not as kinky as his oldest sister, but he's my complexion. And then my third is my daughter or my fourth is my, as my, as my daughter. And she's very, very fair skinned. She takes after my mom. She, she will fry and get burned in the sun just like her older sister. So I have two that are darker, two that are lighter. They amongst themselves recognize the skin color. Even within our own family, they recognize that my dad is African American. He's. They have even said the black grandpa, not the Mexican grandpa because they've got two grandpas. And one's a black one and one's a Mexican one. And then they know that my mom's white. My mom is literally blonde hair, blue eyes. That's the white grandma. And then they've got their abuelita, their grandma who's my mom's mom, who looks, I mean, she looks Asian, she looks Chinese. She doesn't look Mexican. She looks like Chinese. And so you get our family together and these questions that race somehow predetermined your actions and pre existence determined this. It just, it really seems nonsensical. Really, I can't.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:32:40] Well, it's such a beautiful picture that you're describing. I mean, to think that this would be considered wicked or evil or inferior in some way. Just you talking about your children, you know, it's just such a beautiful vision

Dustin Jones [00:32:54] that you create for us amongst themselves. Because again, I have two that are darker complected and two that are very, very fair and with freckles. I definitely don't want any type of sense that one is better than the other. Absolutely not. I would never have that amongst my children. That one race, one skin color is better than another. And as a father, I can't conceive that my heavenly father would be any different. Why would he have one kid better than the next one? If we're all truly his children and I'm just an earthly parent, why would I create this tension? Why would I create this, it doesn't make any sense to me at this point approaching 40. It just doesn't seem conceivable. And it's definitely something I'm not instilling in my kids. And we really haven't, because they're younger, really haven't gotten into much of the Book of Mormon discussions about skin color. I'm anticipating how to deal with those things because know that I can accept again, this is. Heavenly Father changed someone's skin color because of this. And I know it's right in the Book of Mormon. It's there, but I have a hard time with that. I know that one thing we have done in recent years and I've seen this just probably in the past 10 years as we've done, is we've talked this about the curse on the mark. It used to be that the curse and the mark were all. Were one and the same, that you were marked, you were cursed, and your skin was colored because of what you've done wrong. What we've. What has happened. This is probably even just in the last six, seven months, even the church has gone back and changed the headings in the Book of Mormon to be in more line. That the curse is one thing, that's the curse. But the skin color is separate. We've bifurcated. We've separated the skin and the curse. Whereas if you go back and look at all of the previous writings of all the general authorities, the skin, the curse and the mark were one and the same. There wasn't much difference there. Looking at what Bruce R. McConkie taught about the races, he says racial degeneration, quote, unquote, racial degeneration resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude has risen since the Fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain were born with these characteristics of the black race. Again, you read this and he talks about, okay, my physical features are a degeneration. It's a racial degeneration. I'm a degenerate. You read that and you go, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?

Scriptural and Doctrinal Roots of the Race Teachings

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:35:35] Well, let me expound on that. Maybe where he'd get that. But I believe this is Brigham Young again, but he says you see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. You Know this. And then he just kind of finishes up with the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

Dustin Jones [00:36:17] Right? So you get that, you get that type of thinking from Brigham young from over 100 years ago. You get this, this is 60s, 70s, 1960s, this isn't that long ago. You still have apostles with the same type of thinking talking about this, I read this and you talk about racial degeneration or all the other races. It's the presumption that God's race was blond hair and blue eyed and white. Really, you really think, you really believe that God's race is the blonde haired, blue eyed race and everything else is a racial degeneration? It's mind boggling. It's mind boggling.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:53] Especially when Jesus Christ wasn't blonde haired and.

Dustin Jones [00:36:57] But you would either, but you wouldn't think that if you look at some of the artwork and some of the statues and things, you would think that he was just this gorgeous blonde hair, blue eyed guy walking down the street. He's got Brad Pitt with long hair. And so some of that, that stuff is, it's still there. And you just, it just, it's mind boggling. It's kind of funny because I used to think about this again, the kind of the skin color curse thing, that my skin was a curse again. Now we've talked about the mark and the curse are different these days. But when I was a kid, I remember going on campouts as a, as a youth going to boy Scout camp or we'd go as a combined youth up to different activities. And I remember all the white kids in the war just were going on this to going to float down the river or whatever, the salt river or something like that. And everyone's lathering on all this sunscreen and stuff like that. And I remember seeing kids just get sunburned, just fried. And I'm going, is my skin cursed or is your skin cursed? Because that doesn't happen to me. And it was my mind, it was my only way to comically rationalize. I'm like, how can this be the curse? Because you know, I don't blister up, I don't peel, I don't feel fry and I don't get skin cancer. How can my skin be the curse? And it was just kind of, again, just kind of a funny way as a teenager to kind of look at these things and go, I don't know about this skin color thing being a curse. I really feel blessed. And then as a missionary serving in Harlem and serving in the Bronx and my companions that were from Idaho and Utah that were white and they just seemed to have a much harder time. And I could walk through the streets, I could just get my strut on and I could just walk and I felt fine. And I was like, you know, this skin color is not a curse. Believe me, it's not a curse. Again, just in my own way to try to humorously rationalize and explain to myself or deal with the skin, my skin color is a curse. Why is my skin color a curse?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:38:44] Well, as you talk, it just kind of reminds me of myself at those different ages and doing some of the same things that you did. And again, the mental energy, I never had to think about those things, you know, I never thought about. I wasn't comparing myself and looking at other people. And yeah, I mean, I guess I've got issues, maybe from a feminist perspective, but as far as when it came to race, I wasn't looking at my skin and ever even having to think about whether or not I had to put on sunscreen and whether or not I was cursed. Do you see what I'm saying? That stuff just never took up space in my brain where it's like all this space in your brain is being taken up by having to come to terms with this.

Dustin Jones [00:39:30] Absolutely. And I think that that's where a lot of members, the majority of members don't recognize that this is an issue. And for me, I grew up in the church and fortunately I had my grandmother there to kind of strength. But I imagine someone that's full black, that's a convert to deal with this stuff, to find out these things and not have what I had, which was the deep rooted Mormon pioneer. This is my heritage, I will never move from this. That kept me grounded, it kept me there because I still felt like this was my church. I have been, my family's been a part of this church from the very beginning. But someone that's not, that's a convert that may be grappling with this type of thinking is different. And I wonder if the leaders, the brethren, recognized the mental gymnastics that someone that is of color has to deal with, with some of this race based curse marks, skin color theology that still exists, it's still there.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:40:32] I mean, how can they, I mean, they're not black. And so I think this is where some of the issue comes in. When blacks raise these issues, I think sometimes we, the white leaders will say things that are kind of dismissive, like, oh, well, yes, have faith, don't worry about it, you know, I'm sure it'll all be worked out, but we're not the ones having to again, expend that type of mental energy on a daily basis and have it affect our self esteem or our mental health or our relationships with, you know, people. And this is kind of one of those things where either you're going to believe somebody who's in that position and take them seriously or you're going to just assume all is well. Because you think it's all well.

Dustin Jones [00:41:18] Right? Yeah, because I think I bring it up is because like you said, you have to think about it every day. It's not something that's at the front of your mind where someone like myself, as much as you are wanting to not make it an issue. It's there. It's in the theology. You read the scriptures. I mean, you can't read the Book of Mormon and not. And not even see the skin color issue with the Lamanites and the filthy.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:42] How did you deal with that as a missionary? You know, preaching to Hispanics and people that were of different color in general? What did you find was the acceptance of that teaching and how. Another question I have too is were you guys ever taught how to deal with these types of issues, like in places like the mtc? I never served a mission, so I don't know what type of direction you were given.

Dustin Jones [00:42:07] Well, it's funny you'd ask because yeah, we're going to New York and I, because I had studied these issues. These issues were real to me. I knew them. I was the one that the elders would go to to kind of help explain something if it ever came up. I mean, a lot of them just had no idea how to even address this. There was no specific training with respect to these issues. It didn't come up a whole lot with the Hispanic community for some reason. I don't know if it was just the depth of what we were teaching. We just didn't get into the race issues at all. And it's just not part of the script, for lack of a better word. It's not part of the presentation materials. It's not part of what you're giving the membership. So you're not, you're not going into these issues.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:48] Most converts don't really face these issues until they're already members. And then coming across them in teachings or in attitudes of other members along the way.

Dustin Jones [00:42:56] Absolutely, you're going to become a member of the church. You're going to be welcomed with open arms. And then sometime early in Your journey, you may be exposed to some of these teachings and some don't know how to react to them. Again, I had been exposed to some, most of this doctrinal explanation stuff I had had a lifetime to. And get through and understand.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:21] And even with a lifetime, you were really struggling.

Dustin Jones [00:43:24] Yeah, yeah. And I. But part of it I think was just me. I really. This, the. The Canaanite thing, the pre existence and then the patriarchal blessing reaffirming that I'm not of Israel and me really probably this overachiever in me. I want, I want to. I want to do what's right. I want to prove myself. I, it really just was something I really. It really was, was real to me. And again, probably being a thinker, someone else that may not think about these things and just blow it off or whatever, but I know that, I know that it has, it is a, it is a teaching that has existed. These things are there that are very hurtful. I mean you, you read these things. I mean, Bristol Markonki, again, I remember this was, this was one that I remember reading and just kind of scratching my head where he kind of, he's kind of explaining kind of a caste system and segregation as well, you know, distinction races. And he talks about Cain and Ham and the whole Negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain. So they can be identified as a cast apart. A people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry. And I'm thinking of my mom and I'm thinking she got excommunicated and what was going on with the LDS Family Services and my grandmother struggling with me being born. There was no other way to react to it. But the way my grandmother did, it was just, it was, it was devastating to her. And it is what it is. I mean it's hurtful. It's, I think now. And it's kind of funny because now as I've grown up, I don't have a problem talking about these issues and speaking frankly about these obviously, because this is something I live. But the majority of members, this is something. It's like, it's taboo. It's a taboo. It's a non discussable. It's one of those things that members, the majority of members would rather not talk about.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:45:20] Right.

Dustin Jones [00:45:20] And I'm always like, why, why, why, why would I. Let's just talk about this. Let's figure this thing out. Let's. I always have to talk to my friends and say, you don't realize that I have to have an Explanation. I have black friends. I encounter people who are black. I remember talking to missionaries, I said, they're going to look at me and go, why are you with them? Why are you with the Mormons? They're racist. I, as a black member, I have to have an explanation for that. I can't just say, I don't know, I just have faith and I follow along. I can't do that. That's just not a plausible response that I just have faith. I don't look at it, it doesn't bother me. And then you're like, wait a minute, these are the leaders of your church that said these things and that doesn't bother you? It's not an explanation. So for me, as a black member of the church, these are real issues. These are things that I have to be able to explain to people that I encounter that know I'm a Mormon, know I'm black, and know of what our leaders have taught about black people. It's as much as I have the mental gymnastics to understand it, they're looking at me going, are you a fool or what? Why would you be a part of this? And, and being, again, having this strong testimony that's rooted in the gospel, I would, was one of those that would always try to find a way to explain it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:40] Right. Well, it's, I mean, I think it's similar to anybody in a type of abusive type of relationship. I mean, this is a total, I guess, tangent on my part. But, you know, for instance, a woman who might be, I don't know, in a relationship where she's being abused physically, and we ask why would you stay in that type of a relationship, you know, where, you know, you're being hurt and demeaned and, you know, people kind of don't really understand that, you know, in a way, this is type of an abusive type of relationship with your authority figure, which is the leader of your, you know, your church leaders, which in many ways act as parental figures. And so you're being asked to defend abusive parent in a way, an abusive relationship and the whys of why you would stay in such a relationship.

Dustin Jones [00:47:37] Yeah, I never thought about it kind of as an abusive relationship. I look at the quotes, look at these things, scratch my head, not have any explanation, not know why.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:47:49] Well, I know if somebody was telling my kid this stuff, I would consider it abusive.

Dustin Jones [00:47:53] But see, that's where now, I mean, I've had discussions with my wife about this. If my kid comes home with hearing any of this stuff, I'm going to go Down. I'm going down to the jury. Yeah, because I know how it affected me. It affected me even to this day. I mean, up until even a year ago, I was struggling with this as I served in leadership, as I served in the church and not, I mean, I'm in the bishopric. I remember standing at the podium, conducting sacrament meeting as a counselor in the bishopric and not feeling 100% that I was being accepted, that this, that, this, that the membership accepted me as a leader in the church. I remember serving on the high council and having similar feelings that I was not, I was not being perceived as 100% apart and belonging. It was struggle. And so I emotionally tried. Okay, I really need to, I really need to prove myself. I really need to do what I need to do. I need to. I mean, I was again, I was one of those missionaries that I was studying everything just to. And almost to the point of anxiety, stressing about exactness and worrying about being the 100% perfect black child of Heavenly Father to show him that whatever happened in the pre existence. I'm sorry, right.

Church Leadership and the Question of Apology

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:20] And it's not, it doesn't even follow normal repentance pattern because you can't even admit to what you did wrong and you can't even take responsibility for. Because you don't even know. And so it's a never ending kind of repentance process you're put through because you know, you never quite know if it's, if you're done repenting from it. And since your skin is still black, then it's a constant reminder.

Dustin Jones [00:49:45] But you know, you had those teachings though. I remember my, I do remember my mom and my grandmother. This is comical as well. Now think about it was there was the teachings that. I know that Spencer W. Kimball and others talked about your race, your skin getting lighter as the race got more

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:01] righteous, especially with the Native Americans. That was very much.

Dustin Jones [00:50:05] Yes, he talked about that and it was applied to blacks as well. And I remember them talking about, see, you see the black people, they're getting lighter. Getting lighter because, because they're getting righteous. And if you're righteous dustin, your skin will get lighter too. And that's just what happens. It's one of the blessings.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:24] Did somebody actually tell you that?

Dustin Jones [00:50:25] Yeah, my grandmother told me that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:26] Oh wow.

Dustin Jones [00:50:27] I love her to death, but she was just again. But she's, again, she's just going off what the brethren were teaching. I mean, that's the reality of it. I can't look at her and judge her at all. She was teaching what the church was teaching what the brethren were teaching. I mean, someone may say, well, the church wasn't teaching that. That was just McConkie. That was just so and so. Well, they're the voice of the Church. How do, how do you make the distinction as a lay member of the Church that Elder Packard's speaking for himself? He's not speaking for the church, he's standing at the pulpit in conference and he's saying these things or he's published a book and this is what he's saying. The average member doesn't make the distinction that this is someone that's official statement. Because I had a discussion recently with one of members of my Stake presidency on some of these issues, some of these statements, and the defensive posture is that's their opinion. It was never church's teaching, it was never doctrine. It wasn't official. And I just kind of scratched my head and I go, really? Would you say the same thing about Elder Oaks going off and speaking at universities in opposition to same sex marriage? Is that just his personal opinion? I think when members read his talk and read what he says as he's speaking at this law school in opposition to same sex marriage, you don't just say, that's just his personal opinion. You assume he's speaking for the Lord or he's speaking for the church or any other context. If Elder Packer is speaking from the pulpit, you assume that. But for some reason, when it's a statement such as these that are distant, more distant, we more easily distance our belief in them and we're more willing to say, well, they were wrong, well, they were false, they were speaking their own opinion as opposed to, I, I know my grandmother believed this as this was the absolute truth. This was the gospel as it was taught to her, and it was the gospel that was taught to me that I needed to accept and believe if I really wanted to show my faithfulness.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:32] Do you think that this is maybe at the root of why church leaders maybe shrink away from offering official apologies? Is this idea that, well, if we apologize for something that was said, you know, 50 years ago, and we say, yeah, that that person who was a prophet and who was a seer and a revelator, you know, if we, if they apologize for something that, if we now apologize for something that they said, how is that going to affect our credibility as current prophets, seers and revelators with the things that we are currently saying? Like people will just start saying, well, that could be them talking as a prophet versus that could be them just Sharing an opinion.

Dustin Jones [00:53:14] I think that that is probably something that they struggle with. But I don't know how. I don't know how you wiggle out or how you have it both ways. If you look at General Conference, October 2010, General Conference, Elder Costa from Brazil gave a Talk on the 14 fundamentals of profit. And he essentially restated Elder Benson's talk that he gave back in the 80s. I believe that talking about the 14 fundamentals of a prophet, and he goes through these fundamental principles, and it's very clear that when the prophet, he says a prophet, he's talking about a prophet. And I believe if you go onto lds.org, it talks about obedience to the prophet and prophets, plural. And so he's speaking, in my mind, it's the collective 15, first presidency and the other 12, they're the ones that we sustain as prophets, seers and revelators. And I believe that that was the case even back in time of my grandparents, that you're sustaining those 15 as prophets, seers and revelators. And so. And in that talk that Elder Costa gives, he reaffirms that, that these prophets, when they speak, they speak for the Lord, and that they don't have to be trained on the topic. It doesn't have to be a theological, spiritual topic for them to be speaking for the Lord. And it just, I mean, there's not a lot of wiggle room to begin explaining, well, that's just their personal opinion or that's not. You don't have to believe that. I listened to that talk last October, and again, it was very clear to me that what the Brethren say is the will of the Lord. I mean, it's God's will. These are the prophets speaking. These are the prophets. They are apostles, seers and revelators. So applying that same analysis, I don't know how you look back at some of these ancient statements or the older statements, Brigham Young and even the more recent statements, and just dismiss them as well. That's what they were thinking. Unless there's an official dismissal, you'd officially have to abrogate and disavow what has been said from an official position. I know that there are some statements that Elder Oaks and I believe Elder Holland made in their interviews with PBS where they talk about some of these statements in the past that were given by some of these leaders. And I believe they even intimate or suggest that they were wrong, that these leaders may have been wrong, something to that effect. But it's very subtle and it's not. It's not over the pulpit. It's not at general conference, which is where most members are going to be looking for the truths. It's going to be printed in the ensign. It's going to be on lds.org it's not on a. It's not on an interview with some reporter. So I think that, yeah, I think that the brethren may struggle with potentially that slippery slope of when you start dismissing something or giving an official apology. It may call into question some things that are more contemporary, but I think that members are astute enough and smart enough to figure things out. I mean, I don't know.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:56:26] Right. Well, we see a lot of these same issues around the topic of polygamy. Not that we need to go there, because that's a whole other three hours. But you know, where really, there has never been an official statement rescinding the doctrine itself. We still practice the doctrine in the temple, but we say we just don't practice it at this current time. So I'm left feeling, okay, so as a member of the church, do I believe in polygamy or not? What am I really claiming here? And almost being left to my own devices to decide if I'm going to believe in that doctrine or not, because nobody's talking about it or teaching me about it. It's just kind of all swept under a rug. And it seems similar to that. Like things just are never addressed more directly.

Dustin Jones [00:57:24] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was just generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:39] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo. Hearts will swell oh, all is well Always well. Why should we mourn? I think a lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think too earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us forsake soon we'll have tail it tells oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey is through Happy day. All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this glory swell oh, all is well all is well all is well

Dustin Jones [01:01:31] all

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:01:32] is well all is well oh, is well, All is well all in the way,

Dustin Jones [01:02:04] Sam.

Mark Versus Curse in Latter-day Saint Scripture

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 258

Dustin Jones [00:00:00] One. Come, come, you Saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:00:31] Okay, so let me. Let me grab onto your talents as a lawyer and go back to this mark versus curse and the changes that they recently made in the Book of Mormon. Because quite frankly, when I looked at the changes, I didn't quite get it. I was like, well, it still says the same thing to me. I didn't understand the big progress there. Can you maybe help me out with that as far as explaining how, you know, how you see that being separated and what those two things mean. One, it may be a spiritual, one is physical. What are you talking about?

Dustin Jones [00:01:11] Okay, so you're talking about the recent changes in the chapter headings, correct?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:15] Yes.

Dustin Jones [00:01:17] Not the actual Book of Mormon changed, but the chapter headings that precede the chapters that were written and included by, I believe it was Bruce R.R. mcConkie again back in the 1980s. And so this is his kind of introductory statements to a chapter that you would be reading out of the Book of Mormon and in second Nephi, chapter five.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:37] Yeah, correct. I probably said that wrong. Yes.

Dustin Jones [00:01:39] The Old Version said, because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, comma, receive a skin of blackness, comma, and become a scourge to the Nephites. I believe, reading that, the implication is that the skin of blackness is the curse because it says the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness and become a scourge to the Nephites. The new chapter heading says, because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites. So the whole reference to the skin of blackness is gone.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:18] But it's still in the Book of Mormon.

Dustin Jones [00:02:21] It's still in the Scriptures. I don't believe that any committee at church headquarters is going to start changing the Scriptures as much. But these introductory comments that talk about the curse, that tie the curse and the skin color together are being. We're distancing ourselves from that, evolving from that, that notion that the curse and the skin color are one and the same. As I was just quoting in Mormon Doctrine and as well as some of the other statements that many of the other leaders said in the 20th century that the skin color was a curse or some type of degeneration. In Mormon chapter five in the Book of Mormon, again, the Old Version said, the Lamanites shall be a dark figure, filthy and loathsome people. That was changed entirely to say, now because of their unbelief the Lamanites will be scattered and the Spirit will cease to strive with them. Very different. Very different. Whereas the previous heading talked about, I mean, you're speaking of a race of people as being dark, filthy and loathsome. If, I mean, for years we've been talking about who the Lamanites are, that they're Native Americans or they're the Hispanics or the indigenous peoples of the Americas. A statement like this that says that you are dark, filthy and loathsome can be very hurtful. Can be very, very hurtful. And so here with the new version, the new online version takes away that we should recognize. Again, it's in the online version that you find@ Scriptures. LDS.org the print version hasn't happened yet from what I understand. But I see this as an acknowledgement of some of these race based theological explanations as to who people are and why they are. I would be, I mean, I can't even imagine sitting in a general conference hearing a talk today about the segregation stuff. I mean if, and this is another reason why I believe that these, this is where I'm at now is that this is not true. I can't accept these as absolute truth because I can't imagine any of the leaders standing up in general conference and saying that your skin color is because of something you did in the preexistence in a global church. Really, you're going to do that to all of your Africans members in Africa? You're going to say something like that? I can't believe that they would do something like that today. It was acceptable probably 50 years ago when most of the church was in insular Utah and it was probably, I would say, 90% white. I mean no one even, it probably didn't even cross their minds that something would have been wrong with that statement. Whenever, if ever, when you, you associated with, everyone you interacted with was white, just like you. Everyone else was an other, was somebody else, was a different race. So the implications, or even someone questioning it or wondering about it, it just wouldn't have happened.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:16] Whereas I just have such a hard time with the generational implications. I mean, with all of the studies I've done on family therapy and intergenerational patterns and you know, on and on I could go on and on about that. These messages, of course, that were given and we can say, well, yes, 50 to 100 years ago, that seems like a really long time. But when you look at generations, it's only grandparents or great grandparents of ours,

Dustin Jones [00:05:44] a patriarch of mine or a Friend of mine giving a patriarchal blessing in the 90s.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:48] Right, exactly.

Dustin Jones [00:05:49] I mean, this friend of mine, she got hers in 1990. We're not talking about decades and decades ago.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:54] So then the implications are still very much current and modern. And I think people still probably suffer greatly from these types of kind of past things that have been. We've kind of inherited some of these things.

Dustin Jones [00:06:11] Yeah, go ahead.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:12] Well, just. I guess that's where I feel like, I mean, okay, great. So they've changed some of these wordings, but, you know, is that enough? And again, that feels like something that's just done kind of in the sly. It's just kind of done. It's not really made with any big announcement or anything over general conference, and there's nothing really explained about it. And so we all just kind of are left to make our own assumptions.

Dustin Jones [00:06:37] And it's those of us that these are real issues to us that pay attention. I bet if I took a poll of my ward, most of my ward probably had no idea this ever happened. I mean, I post these things on my Facebook wall all the time because I think that it's. I tend to try to track some of these more nuanced issues that go on in the church because I think that if you're just reading the ensign or just reading church news, you're not going to hear about this. I didn't see it in that. I saw it through main blogs, social media in the modern era. I'm going to hear about it very quickly through a blog that I peruse or through a Google search that I'm doing to find certain things or some of my other friends that I associate that these are important issues to them and they're going to hear about this and they're going to share it with me. And so then I share it with others, my thousand or so people on my Facebook wall. You know what I mean? So. But there is probably a generation that's not hearing about these things that are probably in leadership positions that may or may not be as attuned or sensitive to some of these types of issues.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:45] Yeah. And they continue to maybe unknowingly, maybe unintentionally, but yet cause great harm. And I guess that's where I have a hard time not wanting to hold, you know, the kind of the top leadership more responsible or more accountable for these kinds of things. I don't know. I mean, do you struggle with that as, I mean, here you're an active, believing member. We're asked to sustain our leaders. We're asked to support them. Where do we get that differentiation between, you know, support and yet maybe in challenging them, that's a form of support as well.

Dustin Jones [00:08:23] Well, growing up under these teachings, under the curse teachings, the pre existence teachings, Vincent sitters teaching all these things that you find in all the books and then my grandmother being the way she was, and my mother as well, I did not have instilled in me to question the leadership, to question their brethren. You take all the way down to bishop, stake president. I mean, I would be one that would accept what they had to say. And they speak for the Lord. They're in higher priesthood authority than I and I would not question that. And you read the statements about why did it take so long? Why did it not happen until 1978? The explanations that are given is we don't know. It was in the Lord's. It was in the Lord's time. And anytime we start getting into trying to explain why, we're just going to be speculating and we can't speculate. It was the Lord's decision. I believe that for a long time that it was just, that's just the way it was. And that's where the Lord had it. As if, as if Spencer W. Campbell walked into the temple one day and sat down and a pillar of light came into his head and he got a revelation. That's not what happened. That's not what happened. I think where I'm at with this these days is recognizing through more research that I've done in the past, probably eight years, 10 years, I'm learning more and more that there was a lot of deliberation, there was a lot of discussion about this issue that ensued over time that the bulk of the members don't realize that this was something that the brethren struggled with at the highest levels. There were literally that occurred behind closed doors about this. There was not a unanimity of the apostles on this issue. There were those that had different issues, different opinions. There were some that were very much in support of extending the priesthood to blacks. And there were others that were not. And there's the famous or infamous even vote that occurred when Harold B. Lee was out of town. And this was in 1969. And I believe that there were 13 of the 15 apostles present quorum of the 12, first presidency. I don't have the exact number, but I know that Harold B. Lee was out of town. And there was a vote that Hugh B. Brown orchestrated. Hu B. Brown being more of a liberal or progressive apostle. It was very sensitive to these issues and from mice research really wanted to extend the priesthood. Triple acts did not see any doctrinal justification. But he had Markey Peterson, he had Benson, he had Joseph Fielding Smith, he had some of the more orthodox leaders that were not supportive of extending priesthood to blacks. And so there was this discussions that went on. And so then there was this vote that occurred in 1969 to give was unanimous, I believe, in favor of giving blacks the priesthood. This is 1969. Harold B. Lee comes back to town, he finds out this has happened and he, he is able to influence the rest of the apostles and he has it reversed. That type of information is mind boggling to me because that, because I can't understand those that those apostles that had it, they had an opportunity in 1969 to do this, but they didn't. And then it also shows to me more, it shows me the human side that these are men, these are men really struggling with this issue, trying to determine what to do. And they have difference of opinions. They come from different backgrounds. You've got some that really, really believe this race based theology and believe that they cannot and they should not give the priesthood of blacks. The other hand you have some that didn't believe it. So the notion that Heavenly Father just revelation just appeared out of heaven and told President Kimball that he should do it. It didn't happen that way. He had to find a way to do it eight years after this event because he was in that meeting too to figure out he is the president of the church now, he needs to extend the priesthoods to the blacks and he needs to figure out a way within our church governance leadership to do so. He being the prophet. And when you look at, I've read, listened to some interviews and read the biography of Spencer W. Kimball by his son Edward, Edward Kimball. And he speaks to understanding that, you know, one of the things that weighed on his dad's mind in terms of giving the priesthood to the blacks in 1978 was that his, Spencer W. Kimball knew who his successor was. It was Ezra Taft Benson. And Ezra Taft Benson had been a strong opponent of giving the priesthood. So if he didn't do it, it wasn't going to happen under Benson, under most and under most circumstances. And Ed Kimball, his son kind of shares that with us in the world. So when I look at some of these statements and things that are out there now and recognizing kind of how we got here, that it didn't just happen. There were a lot of people that a lot of leaders at the upper ECHELONS that behind the scenes wanted this to happen, advocated for this to happen, talked about it, that's how it happened. If the membership didn't think this was an issue, if the membership, if we weren't presented with how are we going to expand the church in Brazil and give priesthood, spread the church in Brazil and ordain members when we can't figure out who's a black and who's a white in Brazil? This is way beyond us. If these issues, these real life issues hadn't presented themselves, it may not have happened anytime soon. So I think that there needs to be some type of an acknowledgement by the brethren that these teachings are still floating around out there and they've done little to disavow them, they've done little to retract them. That all the good that we do in terms of promoting diversity within the church and in our mormon.org ads and a lot of the public affairs, that is nice. It's good to show that face to the world. It's good to show everyone that we're open and accepting. But if you get to the core of our teachings, if our teachings are race based, that causes a lot of pain still. And it causes those who see the image as one thing and the reality as other when they shouldn't be. It should be one and the same. There shouldn't be a disconnect between our public image that we present to the world and what's on our books. I don't think it should be that difficult for a leader to stand at the pulpit and say this doctrine that was taught is incorrect. This is not the case. This is what we believe, this is what is true and we move forward and then no one's burdened anymore.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:29] Well, we even, I mean, we have somewhat of a loophole in Joseph Smith in that he did do this at some level. So it's not completely unprecedented.

Dustin Jones [00:15:40] I think the challenge is accepting that maybe some of our leaders may have been wrong. It's kind of that slippery slope and I don't know that we ever really admit that, but it's kind of funny. It's like again, that double edged sword, we will always say, you know, Prof. Our leaders are not infallible. There's no one. I've had members of my ward say, you know, the only perfect person was Jesus Christ. And the leaders aren't perfect. They're not perfect. We can't judge them, we shouldn't be critical of them. Well, then I say, well, point out something that they did wrong and no One can point to anything they've done wrong because we're trained as part of our Mormon just the way we are. We don't point out errors in a leader even when they're doing something wrong. And you've got Elder Oaks who specifically said that you're not to criticize our leaders even when they're wrong. So how do you influence, how do you tell Elder so and so you know, this is a problem we've got here. You said you can't do that. It's just not in your chain of priesthood authority to do so. And if it's not on their radar, how is it ever going to be on their radar if you don't bring it to their attention?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:47] And it's something that I think changed dramatically again from the Joseph Smith leadership to the Brigham Young leadership. I think Joseph Smith was much more, I guess, frank about his own imperfections and welcoming challenge and welcoming different ideas, whereas once that leadership changed over, it was, it became much more authoritative from the top down. So, yeah, those are, I guess what I'd like to get into now though is going into. You've mentioned anxiety, I think several times. And as a mental health professional, I'm hearing inappropriate guilt, I'm hearing inner shame, I'm hearing fear. And to me, those are the three ingredients for all types of mental health disasters for people. You know, anxiety, clinical depression, low self esteem. And there's been a term coined somewhat recently called racial battle fatigue, actually from a professional coming out of the University of Utah, and there's been some research done on this showing that for those who have experienced racism throughout their lives in different forms, they start developing a type of generalized anxiety disorder that pretty much mirrors ptsd, you know, like post traumatic stress type symptoms. I mean, this is serious stuff. This affects lives in very serious ways. And again, looking at it from an intragenerational perspective, if you've got a father or a mother with anxiety and depression and inert shame, those things tend to be passed down and it can take generations to overcome some of these very serious ramifications. Can you speak a little bit on maybe having some insight to your own kind of ramifications? I mean, do you think that, I mean, you mentioned anxiety. Do you feel like there were times when this was depressing for you at where you had maybe some issues with your own, maybe not mental health in the sense that you were diagnosable, but kind of just struggling with your own way of perceiving yourself?

Race, Callings, and Personal Struggles

Dustin Jones [00:19:08] Yeah, I can share that. I think where it was most exhibited Was the anxiety about pleasing the Lord again, accepting and taking all these doctrinal things is all these teachings, I should say about SCAN and race and pre existence, all these I, because I accepted them, because I believe them. I had no reason and I had no ability really no ability to question the statements by an apostle because I wanted to believe. It's kind of like you got in that, like you said that circle of I can't not believe because then I'm not being valiant. And then that was what got me in this mess in the first place was being not valiant in the pre existence that I really, I really took my callings very, very seriously. That, that if I got a call from the Lord I was supposed to serve, it was because it came from the Lord and this is the Lord's church and I needed to give everything. And so I remember being recently returned missionary, recently married and being just starting law school my first year of law school and got called as the stake young men's president. My stake which was a big responsibility and it was big campouts for the youth in the summer and all these things. And I'm doing this on top of law and trying to study and I'm in charge of all these wards in my stake and I'm 26 years old and I'm running around doing all these different things. And at no point, even under the burden of all the responsibility would I ever quiver or show any sign that. This is where I guess some of this anxiety stuff comes out is I could not allow myself to show any weakness that I couldn't fulfill the calling. And so there was a lot of stress, a lot of that burden of this whatever I did in the pre existence, what are these teachings? Whatever caused this curse, this is God's church and this is what God wants me to do. And however difficult it is, however burdensome, however much work it is, however much sacrifice it would take, I had to be successful. I had to prove, I had to prove myself. I had to prove that I could do it and that I couldn't waiver, I couldn't, I couldn't question any assignment, I couldn't question any task. The stake leader said, you need to do this brother Jones. More I put put on the smile and say, okay, you bet, I sustain you and do it. And I remember just feeling like, oh my gosh, how in the world am I going to do this? I don't have the time. I don't have the time. But again, being taught you don't ever say no to a call you don't ever reject a call. You do the calling. You do it. I felt that way. And so I accepted every call, every big assignment that was ever given to me. I took those on, and I was called into the bishopric about five years ago as first counselor. And that was another one of those where I need to prove to the Lord that I can do this. And I'm a partner at the biggest law firm in Phoenix. I'm a partner at the firm I'd worked hard to make partner. But I've been called to serve as a first counsel in a bishopric, and I really felt like I needed to give it my all. I've got the responsibility of my family. But now the Lord has called me into a bishopric, and I'm being ordained as a high priest. I took it very seriously. This is, I need to do this. And so I. Again, that same type of unwavering dedication serve, go to meetings, go to state training meetings, and you just go and go and go. And oftentimes I'm not home. I'm leaving. I'm leaving my family, leaving my wife and my kids at home. I'm running around doing things, but feeling like I have to show the Lord that I am valiant. I don't care what Elder McConkie said about me. I'm valiant. And I do love you, Lord. And so I would really focus on those things. I'd really push myself, and I'd try to do everything I could. And then I got called to the High Council about three years ago. I got released, actually. It was a very memorable, memorable experience. The day I got released from the bishopric, they were reorganizing my ward, and I'd gotten a special invitation from my mission president, Elder Sheldon F. Child. He had gone on to be a general authority. He's now Emeritus General Authority. Emeritus. 70. But he had served in New York and then had gone and been an area authority and a general authority. He served in Africa, and he oversaw the construction of both the temples in Ghana and Nigeria and Africa. And In June of 2008, they were having the celebration commemoration of the priesthood restoration at the tabernacle. And Elder Child, who was my mission president, gave me a special invitation to come and be with him and his family because he was the keynote speaker in the tabernacle at this commemorative event. And so I went to the church on that morning, I believe it was a Sunday, and they had reorganized our warden, our stake. I got released in that meeting and then had to rush to the airport to fly up to Salt Lake and To go to that event and be in the tabernacle and see essentially the whole tabernacle full of people of color. And there were two African American stake presidents on the stand, one from Atlanta, Georgia and one from New Jersey, I believe. And they spoke. And I think they're the only two black stake presidents at least three years ago. There are obviously others in Africa, but these are the two in the states. And they spoke. And there was a lot of celebration and jubilation and commemorating the restoration of priesthood. And elder child spoke. And it was a good event. So that was when I got released from being in the bishop break a couple weeks. And that was a very memorable experience. Again, it was very moving to see that. I felt like we had accomplished something. I felt the zeal that we were. We were making progress, which, with what I believe my mission in life was, which is to bring the gospel to a diverse group of people and advocate and open doors for people who are. You're not your traditional cookie cutter, Anglo suburban Mormon to see that the gospel is for them too, that this church is not a church of just white people. And so a month later, I got called to the high council. And in that call I was called and assigned to public affairs for my stake and really started to look for ways that we could have a. Take the church again to people who aren't typical, who aren't. Who otherwise would have maybe an adversarial perception of the church. So we started doing these Christmas nativity activities and things like that where we'd invite the community to come at Christmas time as an interfaith type of dialogue and celebration. We all celebrate Christmas. Why can't we have one thing together? We did it at the Stake center and we invited the different congregations. One year, it was just primarily an LDS Christmas cantata, but we invited all the community and the mayor, council and others again, trying to open up the doors of the stake center to the community. And then the second year, we invited a number of different churches. We had the Catholic church, the local Catholic church came and sang and performed in the gym in the cultural hall. We had nativity sets displayed around. The Catholics were there. We had a couple other faith communities that came and participated. We had an African American church, a Baptist church that came with their drums and their guitar, and they played gospel music, some beautiful gospels in their tradition of worshiping the Lord. And I can honestly say they raised the roof of that gym cultural hall, and there were people on their feet singing, applauding. They had. We had. There were probably a hundred or so black non members, people not of our church, in our cultural hall at the Stake Center. And I looked around that room and there were members of our stake there, members of the. At the adjacent stake, and the community there in the stake Center. And I felt this sense of we did it.

Dustin Jones [00:28:19] Wow.

Dustin Jones [00:28:21] And we had all these different people in the Stake center. And I felt a sense of I had achieved something in sense of my mission because these were clearly people of other faith that otherwise would never have walked into our Stake Center. There would have been no reason for them to ever come and interact with a bunch of Mormons. But we had them there. And I felt a love for them. And I felt like we were building on our common beliefs, which is Jesus Christ, and worshiping him after that, again, in my sense of accomplishments, my sense of love for what we'd achieved, I learned from others that others weren't so happy about it. And it really troubled me. It troubled me that members of my

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:10] faith weren't happy about what

Dustin Jones [00:29:14] some of the specific criticisms were, that they didn't feel that the music that they played, which were gospels and the instruments were appropriate in the church.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:24] Oh, my goodness.

Dustin Jones [00:29:26] And I was baffled. Again, I just troubled because they played guitar and because they had the organ and it was the hallelujah and Jesus and it was a gospel. I mean, you've seen it in the loudness, the swaying, it's the singing and it's. I mean, half of the room was up.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:39] This was in the cultural hall.

Dustin Jones [00:29:41] This wasn't in the chapel. Natasha. This was in the cultural hall where we're allowed to have roadshows on the stage in the cultural hall. We lifted the basketball hoops and this was on the stage. This was not in. Even in the chapel, but there was still a sense that it was not appropriate. And specifically, specifically the stake president of the adjacent stake specifically said that it questioned why couldn't they sing Christmas songs. And I was like, well, they were singing about Jesus and they were their own gospel hymns about the Lord. Isn't that about Jesus? But the concern was that he didn't like what they played and he wanted them to sing oh Holy Night, I guess, or something like that. Again, being very prescriptive as to what they needed to sing or how they should sing it. And in my mind, I just took it as criticism that was unnecessary. The whole idea was to bring diverse Christian faiths together to worship one another, worship, celebrate Christmas, that's it, in a spirit of Christmas. And so that the adjacent state that had kind of cooperated with us on putting together these activities, opted that in the next year, the following year, they weren't going to participate and they weren't going to contribute any funds to it or help us do it again. And that bothered me. It bothered me, that reaction because I just again, did we. It was so inconsistent with what I was feeling that, what I felt we had achieved. And then throughout kind of talking to other members of my stake, some people liked it, but there were some that felt very similar, that it was not appropriate, they didn't like it, that it was, it was not reverent, it was not their tradition. And I just felt like, you know, there's so much work that needs to be done within the walls of my own church to help people broaden their minds. But, and probably because I am biracial, growing up in essentially two different cultures and having to deal with these, the Mormon culture and then the culture outside, I get used to kind of going back and forth and flipping, flip flopping. But probably for some that aren't exposed to anything, that's not different than what goes on in their ward or in the walls of their, their own stake center. They don't know that people worship Jesus in different ways. And that's okay. That's okay. They're worshiping Jesus and well, that's so difficult to.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:32:01] It just feels so hypocritical when we are wanting to have others accept our traditions and our ways, you know, our worship ways. And this is our whole missionary effort and yet we can't even do that at a social event in the cultural hall. I guess I'm just really struggling with that as far as how do we expect to truly be able to be a global community and go out and have other people who have these very different cultures and traditions embrace ours when we're not willing kind of to at least do that on a social level, much less a spiritual one.

Dustin Jones [00:32:43] Right. It just emphasized to me the amount of work that internally we at the church need to do on some of these issues. And so as much as I, in my role as a high counselor, going and speaking to the wards about different types of diverse issues. And my stake president had agreed to be a part of an interfaith council or an interfaith celebration that the city of Phoenix was being a part of and doing some of these things, we formed a mayor's faith council where he, the mayor of the city we live in, would bring all the different churches together. We're sitting around the table with people from all these different religious backgrounds. Talking about the way the government can partner with faith based organizations to solve some of the social issues. Hunger, youth delinquency and things like that. These were things that we as the church really spearheaded and initiated within our community to do. Be a part of this.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:35] That was really out of the box, Dustin. I mean, that's really impressive.

Dustin Jones [00:33:40] We were taking what President Hinckley talked about, about being part of our community and being involved in the community and being part of being more civically involved. And I was trying to push, trying to push that in our stake, to do that and in the hallways and the corridors in different buildings. Unfortunately, it wasn't received as well as I thought. And I felt like I was kicking against the prick pushing this. I felt like it was my. I felt like it really was what Heavenly Father wanted me to do, but it wasn't what the membership really wanted me to do. And certain leaders. I didn't get the sense what happened after. Shortly after this event that we were involved in. My assignment on the High Council got changed and I got taken out of Public affairs and I scratched my head and I wondered why. I felt in my heart I was doing what I needed to do. Why the leadership felt otherwise, I didn't understand that, but didn't question it publicly. Went with the flow. They called another Public affairs director, Sister in the Stake. And the Sister in the Stake shared with me as they were preparing for the next year's Nativity. This would have been this last 2010 Nativity, because this is. I was speaking of 08s and 09s before. So 09 is when we had this big group, a diverse group there. So they're planning the 2010 Christmas nativity event. And she was talking to me about it. But again, I wasn't assigned. It wasn't my assignment anymore on the High Council. I was doing just activities and things like that within, inside the stake rather than being doing the public things in the community and the service projects out in the community. I had been assigned to do more of the internal things at that point. And I was getting resistance from again, members that didn't want to participate, didn't think we should be doing all these things in the community, shouldn't be reaching out. And I'm feeling in my heart again this kind of. Wait a minute, I don't feel that. I feel like this is where we need to be. This is where the Lord wants us to be. And the sister told me that they were planning the next one and that her member of the stake presidency as well had questioned this African American group's music and what they should be doing singing again. And then that just kind of told me, you know, maybe that was why I was released, that there, there was nothing. There wasn't the support, the 100% support. There was still some resistance and some concern with. And again, they weren't talking about the Catholics. They talk about the other groups. It was this black church, this small black church that we had these 100 black members of this other church in our building. And that wasn't good enough because we didn't. We weren't comfortable, entirely comfortable with their musical selection. It was very troubling to me. I struggled with that. And so I struggle with that. And again. And I got comments said to me by people in the hallways and things like that. You just got the impression that some people were not. And I didn't. And again, I have so used to dealing with these types of things, I didn't want to put a whole lot of weight in it. Didn't want to have it ruin my life. I mean, it caused all kinds of trouble. You just move forward and move forward. Then I got. Last summer, summer 2010, I got released entirely from the High Council very abruptly. And because of this, because of what I felt about really having to succeed, having to feel like I was proving to the Lord that I am valiant, I can serve in your church and do everything. For me, it was a letdown, I confess. It was a kick in the gut. It to me was the epitome of, you're not good enough. And that was the only way I could take it. It was that my offering on the altar is the only way I can serve. My offering on the altar and my service of my calling because I had to prove was not good enough, that I. As much time as I put in, as much sacrifice I was making, with all the trials of work and employment and family responsibilities, what I was giving was not good enough. And that, that's the emotional side of this, probably that you're getting to, you're pulling out of me was that I had this built up anxiety of needing to. Needing to prove myself. That just the even the slightest sense of that I wasn't giving enough was difficult to me. I remember getting about five or six months before this release, getting a book from my stake leader who gave me this book by Von J. Featherstone entitled Commitment. And the clear implication I was getting was that I was not committed enough. And I remember just agonizing over I wasn't committed enough. I'm not Committed enough. I'm giving everything I have. I'm giving everything I can possibly. So it was very difficult. So I got released in that.

Dustin Jones [00:39:00] Wow.

Dustin Jones [00:39:02] I confess that it's been very difficult to go to church and to sit in the meetings. And I sit around, I Look at those 12 men, 11 men that were on the high council with me, and I served with them. And I felt like I served really hard. And I look at the majority of them that are still there on the high Council, and I can't, Natasha, help but feel like, what did I do. That displeased the Lord so much that I was released and they're still there. And for many, I mean, a month after I was released, I went, met with the stick presidency and I said, you know, I don't want to take another calling. I'm not accepting any more callings. And they'd extended a call for me to teach seminary, and then I later was extended a call to teach gospel doctrine, high priest, group leaders teaching. And I can't do it. I can't do it right now because it's so. The sense of I failed the Lord somehow is so difficult for me to process that I struggle. I remember I've gone to church a few times and seen some of the other high counselors on the stand officiating in the same capacity I had that I felt like I was doing. I felt in my heart I was doing what the Lord wanted me to do. I had no sense that I was not doing it. I had no feeling that something was wrong with my offering on the altar to the Lord to prove that I'm valiant. I love you and I love this church. And I remember sitting in sacrament meeting and seeing one of my former friends, colleagues, a friend and a former colleague, a high counselor. And I'm just sitting up there and I just. I actually had to get up and walk out because I had this sense of, what did I do this time? What did I do that I'm not good enough still? I'm not good enough still. Come on. And so it's been difficult and I'm working through that. I know when I met with the stake presidency a month afterwards, I think they were kind of shocked that I was feeling the way I felt. And one of the counselors, stake presidency said, you know, so what do you think of callings are forever? We always. We all get released from our callings. We all get released from our callings. You're not going to have your calling forever. And I thought about that. You know, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. But for me being who I am, I just thought you don't understand what it's like to feel like you're a second class member of this church and that you have to prove yourself. You have to prove you're worthy enough to be accepted fully, not just by the membership, but by the Lord because of what all that has been said by his anointed. And to just take it flippantly like it's just a, it's just a calling, it's just a release. No, from my perspective, it never was. It never was. I gave with all my heart. And so I've struggled with that anxiety of feeling like I did not deliver adequately enough to feel like God would somehow accept my offering, accept that I, I wasn't valuing the pre existence, that I didn't do something to deserve this mark, this curse because I did something that I'm some degenerate race. Been very, it's been difficult. It has been difficult and I apologize for so emotional about it.

Healing, Boundaries, and Moving Forward

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:07] Oh goodness, please don't apologize. It is very emotional. And you could tell me to cut if you don't want to answer this question, but I guess where, where would you say you're at with your white Mormon God? Like when I'm, you know, kind of with the relationship with your deity, with your divine. How do you, how do you, when you picture him, her, them looking down on you, what do you, what do you see?

Dustin Jones [00:43:38] I don't see a white Mormon God. I don't see a white person that somehow has cursed me for something I didn't do. I know in me who I am as a person. I know what I feel in my heart. I know how I feel about my fellow men. I know how I feel about my love in general and acceptance of people who are different than I, who have experienced different things. That's just my general sense. It's, it's, it's. I can't say that I've ever really wished harm on anybody. And so I can't perceive, even conceive of a God that, that, that's that way. What I, what I do accept is that we men, we as human beings come up with these types of things to explain our world. And when I look at statements by former general authorities, former leaders of the church that say things that are very hurtful, all I can say is that is a man that cannot be, that is not the God, the God that I would worship. I can't worship a God that would say that I Mean, I'm looking at statements by looking at a letter from Elder stapley that from 1964 that he wrote to Governor Romney, who was the governor of Michigan at the time, Mitt Romney's dad. And this is a letter on Church letterhead 1964. And he's. He calls out and he chastises Governor Romney at the time for his support of civil rights for blacks. This is on Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint letterhead 1964. And he signs it and he's chastising another, an elected official for his support of 64. Okay, my dad was alive. My dad didn't have civil rights. My grandparents didn't have these things. My mother was alive. This is an ancient history. But here's one of the prophets, seers and revelators riding in vehement opposition to civil rights for blacks. This isn't talking about the blacks in the priesthood. This is. This is going beyond in the church, our theology about blacks and who they are. This is taking it one step further into the public arena. Telling elected officials who have public policy don't make public accommodations is the term that he uses for blacks. He says, I cannot in my feelings accept the idea of public accommodations that taking from whites their wishes to satisfy the Negroes, I do not have any objection to recognizing the Negro in his place and giving him every opportunity for education, for employment, for whatever contribution he can make to the society again in his own place. And there's other statements that are very, very, very race, very racist statements that go beyond, again, the. Their theological perspective that go into the public arena. They're very, very hurtful. I cannot accept that the God that I worship. To go back to your question, the God that I worship would endorse this. This can't be something that my God would say. My God would not want me at the back of the bus. My God does not want me to have to be segregated schools. My God would not try to segregate me or not give me privileges. Probably. I look at these things. I feel like we as a society have come so far with respect to civil rights for people, for minority peoples, not just ethnic minorities, but other minorities as well. To think that God would oppose that is unfathomable to me. I can't. I can't accept that because I see so much beauty and so much good that comes from equality and that all are like unto God. I can't accept it. And so I'm at a position where for the first time in my life, I can sit in a church meeting and do as some have done with respect to statements like this and go, I don't believe that that can't be true. That can't be true. Whereas before everything that came from the mouth of one of the apostles was truth, I had no way in my mind to question it, to think that they were wrong.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:48:36] What's that, what's that like, Dustin?

Dustin Jones [00:48:40] It's, it's beautiful. Actually. It's not. I don't feel, I feel free to use my own God given talents, to think, to question, to look, to feel and not feel like I have to accept this as truth. And it's, it's funnier. I don't have to accept it as truth until the person in authority decides it's no longer truth. Which is kind of how we have it is until the leaders decide to dismiss it or someone else decides that, well, we don't teach that anymore. We no longer emphasize that it's taught as truth. I don't feel shackled by that any longer. I can myself say, no, I don't believe that. I'm not going to believe that it can't be true. And I feel, and I feel comfortable in doing that. And I feel even reading some of the statements by Joseph Smith in the early days, that was more in line with how he was as a progressive Mormon, as a progressive individual in questioning the establishment of religion at the time and how things were, he questioned those things. And there have been others throughout our history that have done so. And unfortunately because of probably the corporate church, the correlated church, the structured institutional church, we don't treat these people too nicely. But at this point, me deciding the biggest thing for me is when I decided I'm not going to aspire to or accept any more callings to prove myself to these men that I'm acceptable or prove myself to God that I am acceptable and that I'm a valiant and a faithful person, that to me has been the greatest burden. To step back and say, you know, I'm going to serve on my terms and I'm going to serve the way I feel comfortable and I'm going to serve my God the way I want to, the way I feel in my heart and not in a way that I feel like I'm having to prove something to overcome the burdens of the statements that all these leaders have said about me and my race for decades. I don't feel that burden because I can dismiss and say they're wrong, they were wrong, they were absolutely wrong. And if they don't want to admit that they're wrong over the pulpit, it's regrettable, but I'm at the point where I can in my heart say I know that they were wrong and it was never true. And unfortunately I believed it because I had no other choice but to believe what the leaders were teaching me.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:51:17] So to couch this, I guess in kind of mental health terminology, you're kind of on a journey of self healing. You're placing appropriate boundaries, you're reframing things, you're challenging distorted thinking. You're maybe finding a release of some of these symptoms of anxiety or depression or low self care, sustain your healthier.

Dustin Jones [00:51:44] I do. I feel, I feel it's taken me a little while, it's taken me the year since my release to kind of come out of the dark cloud that I felt initially. The kick in the gut again, the initial reaction of I failed the Lord, I failed the kingdom, I'm not good enough. I didn't achieve what I was called to do because I felt that burden. Since then, I'm feeling better now as I have had to kind of reconstruct my belief system, my own faith and what I believe. And just because some leader has said it's this way doesn't mean that he's speaking absolute truth. Because our history tells us you look at some of these things, they're false. There are things that are, they're completely incorrect. Now, the church doesn't, as an institution want to admit that, but by quietly dismissing it or quietly letting it not be emphasized in my mind is a tacit acknowledgement that it was wrong and the leaders who espoused these teachings were wrong. To have Elder Benson stand at the pulpit in General Conference in 1967 and discount the civil rights movement and openly discourage any member from serving participating in civil rights movements, he tells the members, you have to choose God or man. You have to choose sides. And if you're on the sides of the Lord, you're following the church. Or if you're on the side of man, you're following civil rights movement. That blows me away to have him say something like that and to speak about not again making accommodations for blacks and things like that. That's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. I think it's an embarrassment now as a member of the church. These are things, there's statements that are coming forth now and through the Internet that people are finding. I mean, I never would have found these books in high school or college just down at the library. But through social media, one can share it on Facebook. You can see it posted on a blog. You can Google and find these things. The information is there, and I would wish that the brethren would recognize that there's no way to hide from these statements anymore. Just making something go out of publication a deseret book doesn't make it go away just because you've stopped printing it. This is a digital age, and things live forever. And so these statements that are out there are there forever until they explicitly denounce them. That these are. These teachings are incorrect. You're not under this burden.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:54:44] Well, I know that working with people in my field who have been through some type of an abusive relationship, either with their parents or their spouse or something along those lines. When an apology from the person who perpetrated those abuses is forthcoming and sincere and able to be given because some people are dealing with issues with, you know, dead parents or things like that. But when that is possible and when that happens, the type of healing and the life change that that's afforded to that person many times is incredibly different from those who are not given that opportunity to hear an apology. You know, just the ability to let go of the pain and the hurt and some of the scars, you know, that. That abuses tend to leave. So it.

Dustin Jones [00:55:42] I guess apology is a strong word. I'm just. I'm just wanting an acknowledgement. Apology. I would. Apology would be nice. I mean, that's. That's going a little far. An acknowledgement that this was taught. I mean, I. For me to have people that I encounter, members in leadership tell me this wasn't taught. They look at me like, dustin, go look at. Go to the Genesis group and just, you know, why are you worrying about this black issue? I mean, just get over it. Are you kidding me? This is stuff that was ingrained in many of us. This is what we were taught. This is what we were led to believe was absolute and truth.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:56:21] Why do you feel like an apology is too much to ask for?

Dustin Jones [00:56:25] Probably because I think it would never happen if it's. Just acknowledge that it was taught. I mean, acknowledge that it was taught that we actually taught these. Again, like some of the other controversial doctrines. There's just a denial that we ever taught that we didn't teach that. And we're like, yeah, you did. Because I could find the quotes here. It's like these quotes about these. These very racist quotes about who blacks are and why we should not let our kids marry them and how we must oppose civil rights for them. We must oppose any type of legislation that would allow for interracial Marriage or public accommodations in schools and things like that. Those types of statements are out there. And you have to acknowledge they didn't just disappear. Unless someone in the contemporary church recognizes that this is what was said and says something contrary, it's still there and it's the last in the teaching of continuous revelation. If nothing else is said, all you can go on is what was last said.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:25] And I know that a lot of people might challenge you on that in the sense of, oh, you know, Spencer, I mean, President Hinckley, for instance, said something along the lines of anything that's been said that's racial means, you know, that they're not true disciples of Christ.

Dustin Jones [00:57:41] In 2006, in priesthood session, he talks about racial strife and talks about people using racial slurs or denigrating remarks and that if anyone doing this is not a worthy priesthood holder or true disciple of Christ, that doesn't. That racial slurs and denigrating remarks, that's not addressing teachings, doctrines. That's me calling you an N word. That's me calling you another word. You see what I'm saying when I hear racial slurs, that's what I hear. And absolutely. If I've got. If I'm a member of church and I'm out using racial slurs to describe someone, of course that's unbecoming of a priesthood holder. That's unbecoming of a Christian person. Every one of these people, none of these general authorities were doing that. They weren't using racial slurs or things like that. They were just using their doctrine and their teaching and their theology to explain who these people that we're not going to use erasure slur about. Are you see what I'm saying? You see the difference?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:58:42] Yes, absolutely.

Dustin Jones [00:58:43] And so I think this is a nice step in the right direction. I appreciate that President Hinckley did this in 2006 because it called out people that. Because I've heard racial slurs within the corridors of church and on campouts and with the youth and things like that. Because I've worked with the youth forever, and I've always been very sensitive to that in teaching the youth that that's not appropriate, even when they would do it in my presence. And you're just like, are you kidding me? You see who your leader is and you would use the N word. Come on, kids. But I use it as an example to teach rather than to chastise. And so President Hinckley, when I read this, that's what President Hinckley was addressing. He didn't Address teachings. There's nothing he said about teachings. Teaching these things was wrong. That's not correct. That those leaders spoke what they said is not absolutely true about where blacks come from. I mean, that's still on the books. And again, in the theology of continuing revelation, that's the last statement. It's still there. Whether we're emphasizing it or de. Emphasizing it now, the teaching is still there. Until something new comes out and. And abrogates or disavows or amends or annuls, it's still there. And again, in this digital age, it doesn't go away.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:59:58] Right? You talk. You talk a lot about your pride, your Mormon heritage, because that was afforded you. You know, your grandmother instilled that in you. What about your pride in being black? Was that ever developed?

Dustin Jones [01:00:15] Because I grew up in a biracial home and my father was not around. My stepfather was there, but he wasn't really involved in a lot of black pride or African American pride types of things. I had to search for those types of things as a kid. I was always one in school being teased by the black kids for talking white. I talked too white. I didn't talk black enough. And so I used to get that type of. But that's because of where I grew up and my social circles were within the church. And that was just my experience. I mean, if you watch Fresh Prince of Bel Air back in the 80s and 90s, I was always being told I was Carl. Is it Carl Carlton? Because I didn't talk like. Like Will Smith, but those are the jokes. So my sense of pride is of African American pride is one that I've developed since I was probably my adolescence and going to college and learning black history and learning about my people. And so the love I have has been brewed, probably very intellectually more than just socially, because of learning about the civil rights movement and learning about the sacrifices of my people and learning about, through my biological father, about my family back in Mississippi and being illiterate and learning about the Ku Klux Klan and the things that were going on back in Mississippi and reasons why they wanted to leave Mississippi and come out to Arizona because of the racial tensions. I have an adult perspective and sensitivity to race issues now. These are things that I again developed more in my 20s and into my 30s. This sensitivity and a respect for and honoring those who were a part of the civil rights movement and things that they did, which again, is why it's so difficult to hear my apostles, prophets, seers and revelators speaking out against them at the same time Martin Luther King is trying to champion rights for blacks. You've got Ezra Taft Benson and Elder Stapley and Elder Peterson speaking out against him and criticizing him. That's. I have a hard time with that as an adult processing that right. Because here I. I venerate and honor and respect these pillars of the civil rights movement, and I have always honored and venerated these leaders of my church. But they're in juxtaposition. They're in opposition to each other. I, who's on the Lord's side, I have to step back and go, I can't believe that Elder Benson was in the right. I can't. Because of the implications. If he was right, then where would I be? I would never have gone to law school. I mean, there's just a number of things that would never have happened. And I can't accept that. That is my truth, that that was my destiny. No.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:12] Did you have much chance to interact with your. With your father's side of the family? And you mentioned that you did you have had conversations with your father? We never really spoke much about how much you got to know him. Was he an active member of your growing up years?

Dustin Jones [01:03:25] And my biological father?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:27] Yes.

Dustin Jones [01:03:28] Was not. I actually didn't meet him until I was almost 18.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:31] Okay.

Dustin Jones [01:03:32] And so I grew up with my stepdad, who was black as well, but we didn't. We didn't have a really close relationship, being kind of the stepson. So I didn't really enter into his world or learn about his experiences. We just didn't have those conversations. So I was closer to my mom, and then I was closer to my leaders at church who were all white. And then again, getting to college.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:55] Where did you go to college?

Dustin Jones [01:03:57] University of Arizona.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:58] Okay.

Dustin Jones [01:03:59] I remember being a senior in high school, and I was the student body president of my high school. And I got involved in a lot of leadership types of things. And I got to go to Washington, D.C. and for me, I hate to admit it was the first time that I had seen black people that were professionals. And it blew me away because I had never seen a black person in a suit and tie working in an office, doing certain things. And I remember coming back going, wow. Because I was in Washington, D.C. i mean, that's obviously a very large black community. And for me, growing up in the west side side of Phoenix and the poorer part of town, Hispanic part of town, it was an eye opener. I didn't have those role models. And so it was neat to see black people in that different realm. I never had anything negative or any hostile. Obviously I knew that I was black. I was a person of color. I just wasn't exposed to. I just wasn't around a lot of them growing up. And I regret that. I wish I had been around a lot more blacks. And because I am black, I did as a senior in high school, have an opportunity to champion the Martin Luther King Day. As a senior in high school I would go. And they were trying to get MLK Day here in Arizona. And we had a Mormon governor of Mecham who was much of. He was a very orthodox zealot. President Benson was the prophet at the time. And Governor Mecham was opposing MLK holiday in Arizona. I think Arizona was the last state to get the Martin Luther King holiday. A lot of it was due to, I'm convinced a lot of it was due to the influence of the members of the church who were obviously influenced by their profit. Ezra Taf Benson, who was a vocal opponent of civil rights for blacks. I don't think that we can discount that influence. Elder Stapley, who wrote this letter to Governor Romney of Michigan was from Arizona as well. There was, there was that. There's a deep seated hostility that still persists amongst many members. Right now we have Russell Pierce, who's the president of our Senate, who's. He did the SB 1070 legislation that's going to root out all the people of color, brown Hispanics in the state. I mean there's. And then to have him citing the articles of Faith in championing this type of race based legislation in Arizona. It's a consistent pattern in my mind of this type of thinking that I wish the church could speak out a little more vocally on these types of things for those of us who are directly impacted by it. It's still there. It still exists, unfortunately. And I would say the majority of members that I associate are very conservative Republican Tea Party types of members. I'll never forget sitting around the high council table and having one of my colleagues, high councilors talk about President Obama being the Antichrist. He was. And I was just. My eyes were like, you're kidding, right? He was, he was serious. And there was chuckles and jokes. Yep, this is the Antichrist. We're getting ready for Armageddon. And I thought, wow. Really?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:07:23] Because normally I would say wow to that. But I'm not shocked because I've heard it too. So.

Dustin Jones [01:07:28] Because of, because of Obama. Really?

Dustin Jones [01:07:32] Wow.

Dustin Jones [01:07:33] But it's again, there's people's perspectives on things and so you just get this And I just, I just, I don't know. But back in high school, again, going back to Mecham, I did try to participate with and be involved in the black community. And I actually did participate in the marches in Phoenix with some of our leaders in advocating for Martin Luther King holiday here in Arizona. So I did do that. And that was a sense of pride and accomplishment for me to be able to be part of that. And then I tried to carry that into college and getting involved in student government in college and then also being again, an advocate and a voice. But you kind of have to find a way to do it within the church because it scares people. Advocacy, particularly race based advocacy, scares people. So you do it very quietly and subtly.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:08:19] Yeah. Wow. Well, this has just been fabulous to speak with you. Is there anything that I'm not broaching that you'd still like to be able to, to talk about?

Civil Rights, Homosexuality, and Doctrinal Evolution

Dustin Jones [01:08:35] One thing I think is important to recognize as well as we look at kind of the evolution of our doctrines and teachings with respect to blacks that were carried on, they were evolved from in the 30s and 40s and 50s that we believed that my grandmother believed, that others believed. Look at how they, how these teachings within our church impacted public policy. And I kind of touched on kind of some of these statements by some of these leaders that were, that were vocal opponents to civil rights for blacks, things like that. And they felt very justified. I read Elder Stapley's letter and I believe, I know in reading it, he felt very strongly that he was speaking for the Lord when He was counseling Governor Romney of Michigan in 1964 to oppose civil rights. I know he believed with all of his heart that he was right. But I can't believe that I could circulate this letter to anybody that I know that's a member of the church today and that they would believe this letter. But at the time that it was articulated, at the time that it was printed, I bet every member believed that this was the truth. Would you agree? I mean, there are probably very few members that would have questioned this or

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:09:55] even if there were members who questioned it again, almost kind of like you're saying if you're going to be an advocate in the church right now, you have to do it quietly and carefully. Imagine, you know, back then there may have been people who would have disagreed with it, but what were their options?

Dustin Jones [01:10:12] Right? And I think that there were some that may have been disciplined as a result of, of this type of advocacy. But now we look back at, we look back at, we look Back at Governor Romney and everyone, I mean, they were celebrating him now celebrating Governor Romney for not adhering to this letter that he got from an apostle and he advocated for civil rights. I've heard so many people say, you know, he's one of my heroes because he didn't. And I think, you know, 50 years ago you would have called him an apostate. He would have called him someone that was not in line with the leadership. He was not in line with the brethren. You see what I'm saying?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:10:53] Yeah.

Dustin Jones [01:10:53] But now in hindsight, when our social structure has changed and things are different now, he was in the right and the apostle was in the wrong. And now we celebrate the one that was actually in rebellion or was in opposition to. It's ironic and interesting to see how that has played out.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:11:18] Well, it's very difficult, and you mentioned it already, not to point to the correlation here between what's going on with the whole debate on homosexuality and the many different feelings amongst members around the current Prop 8 in the same boat right now, just with a different issue.

Dustin Jones [01:11:41] It's one of my fears that I have right now in the church is I look at how we're laying the groundwork and we've got all this doctrinal justification for our position that this is God's will, that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry, that homosexuality is wrong. And we've got, this is not, we're not a bad church. We're just advocating God's position. This is what Heavenly Father wants. This is the Lord's position. And we keep saying this and we're doing this over and over and over and we're trying to advocate and we're trying to impact public policy as a result of my biggest fear is, you know what? 50 years from now, 30 years from now, we're going to look like just like we do now where I'm sitting here looking at a letter from a leader of the church to an elected official and saying things that are absolutely appear asinine to us now that we go, how could he say that? That's so not true, it's false. I wonder if we are positioning ourselves for the same type of embarrassment on this, on this subsequent civil rights issue that we're doing the same thing. So when I read a lot of the quotes and I see Elder Oaks out on the campaign trail and he's talking, he's speaking at law schools and he's giving his legal arguments in opposition to same sex marriage, I'm getting deja vu of Elder Benson out doing the same thing, speaking in opposition to black see, getting civil rights and being accommodated in the public forum in the fora. I see these things and I just go, I don't know about this because no one wants to admit that this happened 50 years ago. 50 years from now, where are we going to be at? And what I think about now as a parent and knowing my kids are going to be around 50, 60 years from now. I wonder about those members who were complicit back in the 60s and up to 78 who said nothing and just sat there, sat in the meeting, sat in sacrament and sustained the leaders that were writing this stuff about race, this racist political statements, writing these things and didn't question it. Like my grandmother. My grandmother didn't question it. She believed it. She believed this was right. I wonder about other leaders and people doing the same today. Do we just sit back and not question and then wait for them, the leaders to catch up and then change their mind and then quietly act like they never ever said anything in Prop 8, it didn't happen? Can that happen again? I don't know that that's going to happen. I don't know that we're going to be able to act like we didn't have an active role in the public forum advocating because again, all of our positions back in the 60s, up to the 70s with respect to civil rights for blacks, we justified them with our doctrine. We kept saying it was God's will, it was the Lord's will. We can't explain why we oppose this. It was ordained of God. This is what the Lord has said, God has spoken. And then all of a sudden he changed his mind. And then now we don't want to acknowledge that we even said these things. Maybe that's why. Maybe that's another reason why the brethren don't want to acknowledge, they said, they come out and address these comments because again, it kind of makes you go, wait a minute, do we continue to make these statements? Do we continue to do this? Are we doing it now? Again, my biggest fear is that as I remain in the church and I grow old in the church, that 30 years from now I'm looking back and I'm saying to myself or to my kids, yeah, the church has now changed their position and they've admitted that homosexuality is a natural occurrence, it happens. And they've now come up with a policy or how to deal with it within the construct of our faith. And yeah, 30 years from 30 years ago, I didn't say anything about it. I Didn't speak up. I acted like I supported it. And my kids are looking at me and everyone else is looking at me like, how could you think that, dad? That was horrible. Just as I look at people now that actually you actually believe that blacks were degenerates and they were racist. Brother so and so or President so and so. Elder so and so you actually believe this? Really? I don't want to be in that position in the future, to have my integrity as a 39 year old questioned by my posterity, that I was, I was socially and theologically in the wrong.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:16:05] Well, I think that's a wonderful place to stop our interview because I think that what you've done here very eloquently is kind of call out for, you know, a social cause.

Dustin Jones [01:16:17] And it's a consciousness, more of a consciousness that social impersonal. What we say and do as members in our theology, it has implications in the social sphere and what we're living in. In the civil rights era now as members of the church, there's almost like an apathy by many members of the church about civil rights. And I have to say it's because President Menson told him not to get involved. Elder Peterson told him not to get involved. Elder Stapley told him not to get involved 40 years ago. They don't care. It doesn't impact them. And now we may be having something similar. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:16:55] And especially when there are so many facets of our religion that call for social reform. All of the great religious leaders, even, I mean Jesus obviously, but even outside

Dustin Jones [01:17:08] of Christianity, King Benjamin in the Book

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:17:10] of Mormon call for these types of challenges to our kind of common or our comfortable positions. And how do we move from our comfortable positions into something much grander? And it is in that I think journey as we do that that we do start really understanding what our relationship with, with God is all about. So I thank you for that and I thank you for, for spending all this time with me tonight. I very much appreciate your story. It's been really wonderful speaking with you and I hope others enjoy it as much as I did.

Dustin Jones [01:17:46] Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to share.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:17:48] Thank you. Dustin. Good night.

Dustin Jones [01:17:50] Good night. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Dustin Jones [01:18:11] Come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy when you're away though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive do the San Jo, your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is high. Tis not so, all is right. Why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us forsake soon we'll have. All is well. Oh, all is well, all is well. And should we die before our journey is through Happy day. All is well we then are free from toil and sorrow too with the

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:21:27] just

Dustin Jones [01:21:30] we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain. I will make this oh, all is well, all is well all is well all is well. All is well. Oh, all is well. Way.

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