Introduction and Guest Background

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 214

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories Podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org hello and

Natasha Helfer [00:00:15] welcome to another edition of the Mental Health and Relational series here on Mormon Stories. This is Natasha Helfer Parker, and today I'm pleased to welcome Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife. She's a licensed psychotherapist and holds a PhD in counseling psychology from Boston College, where she wrote her dissertation on LDS women and sexuality. She has taught college level classes on human sexuality. She currently has a private therapy practice in Chicago where she lives with her husband and three children. And she's an active member of the LDS Church. Today we're going to talk about her dissertation, her practice, and common things she sees working within the framework of LDS marriage and sexuality. Hello, Jennifer, thanks for being with us today. How are you?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:00:59] Thanks for having me.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:00] Good, good. Okay, well, I gave a brief introduction, so why don't you go ahead and fill in the blanks. Like where did you get your undergraduate? How did you go about getting your PhD?

Growing Up LDS and Path to Academia

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:01:13] Sure. So I grew up in Burlington, Vermont. I was the fifth of eight children in a very active LDS family. My dad was the stake president and branch president and all those things growing up. And so I grew up and went to Brigham Young University as an undergrad and I studied psychology and women's studies. And, you know, a lot of my thinking about feminism and women's issues definitely were cultivated during that period and went on a mission, saw the plight of women very much in those experiences.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:55] Where did you go on your mission?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:01:56] I was in Spain. Seville was the mission name at that time. And Seville, Spain. And then I came back, finished my undergraduate degree and decided to go on to get a PhD and went to Boston College, got my master's and PhD in counseling psychology.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:17] So what years were you at BYU?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:19] I went in 86 for two years, then went on a mission, then came back and went three more years and graduated in 93.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:31] So you were there during the time that some of these feminist professors were not being renewed with their contracts and things like that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:40] That's right. That all happened the last year I was there and I was actually working with. I was a teaching assistant for Tomi Ann Roberts, and I was just aware of a lot of those issues that were going on at the time.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:52] Yeah, I had her for several classes as well. I loved her.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:56] Yeah, she was great.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:00] Can you talk a little bit more about your experience at BYU as far as your women's studies experience?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:03:07] Yeah, Sure, I was. You know, I think I. Coming out of my own family and growing up in the church, I had a lot of ambivalence around women's roles and what that meant for me, and both embraced it on one hand and also struggled with it in terms of its meaning towards my own autonomy and my sense of self and my own sense of value and so on. So I was very interested in the question of women and women's value in society and women's position relative to men.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:03:45] And I think being at BYU during that period was very important in my thinking, because I saw how much those same questions were very much trying to be worked out within the group, at least the group at BYU at the time. And.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:04:04] And it just helped me to see all the sides of the issues, essentially see the different positions that various people would take, and basically identifying with all of the positions at once. I wasn't. Clearly, in some ways, I could understand the threat that feminism was to the church and to byu, and I could also understand the stances that many of my professors were taking and the positions they were advocating and holding. And I.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:04:33] I found it to be helpful in my way of thinking. And I also felt like I was able to really turn to a lot of professors and people and ask for their perspectives and thinking because it was so much in the larger experience at BYU during that time.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:52] Well, that kind of ties right into. One of the things that I loved most about reading your dissertation was this ability to look at both sides of the equation. You very much look at the pros that the church offers through, you know, its standards, but also juxtapose that against the negative consequences of its high expectations and realizing that I think most women's experiences are usually somewhere in between. They're not all positive or all negative.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:05:20] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:21] So I guess with that. Yeah. Let's get into your dissertation. It's titled Female Sexual Agency and Patriarchal the Case of Mormon Women. So what was starting that process like? And what did your dissertation committee think about you approaching this subject? How did you kind of land on the subject of sexuality in your PhD program?

Writing a Dissertation on Female Sexual Agency

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:05:42] Well, something kind of funny is when I was dating my husband, I was thinking about writing on the topic of forgiveness. So he told his mother that was what I was going to be studying. And she thought, what a nice girl.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:05:57] And then by the time we were actually getting married, I had switched it to sexuality. It was kind of funny. Suddenly, the image of a nice girl seemed to fade. But I didn't really think that. But, you know, I was Asked, when I was unmarried, to teach a couple of classes at the doctoral level, meaning as a doctoral student, I was asked to teach to the undergrad population.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:06:24] And comically, I was asked to teach two classes, one of which was sexuality and the other was drugs and alcohol. So here I was a Mormon woman with no personal experience in either of these topics, and here I was asked to be a professor on both of them. So it was funny. But I took the human sexuality course. I approached by looking at the ways that our society, American society in particular, looks at the topic of sexuality and how we understand it in this day and age and how that contrasts with different periods of time. And then I also looked cross culturally at how sexuality is understood, culturally speaking.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:10] So it really helped me start thinking more about Mormonism and the approach to sexuality within the church and how that very much had shaped how I thought about sex and how I felt about being a sexual being. And also all of the feminism that I had read and had thought a lot about, how I also felt in many ways. And in particular, as I was in training and working with a lot of.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:38] In training to be a therapist and working with a lot of supervisors and other students, seeing a lot of the biases towards sexual conservatism, that it was a form of female oppression to value virginity, for example, and sexual restraint. And, you know, on the one hand, growing up in the church, I took a lot of comfort in the law of chastity, personally. I did. I felt like, you know, it was protective for me. It protected me from male sexual aggression or expectations that I didn't feel prepared for. I liked the idea of committed sexuality very much. I liked the idea of two people coming together in a marriage as virgins and holding this experience for marriage.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:08:28] So I identified with all of that. And yet I also was very curious to. You know, I knew I had friends and people who talked about feeling sexually uncomfortable upon getting married and feeling feelings of shame and inhibition. And so I had a lot of questions about how to understand Mormon women's experiences in the sexual realm. What were the upsides and the downsides of our particular cultural framework?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:08:59] So that led me to my question, in terms of the question about my committee. They were very supportive. I had a great dissertation chair. I had a group of five other students in my PhD program. We were very bonded as a group, and we were all from very diverse backgrounds. I mean, you couldn't have a more diverse group than my PhD cohort. But I talked a lot about my faith, and my professors were well aware of Some of my own origins and the questions I was grappling with. And my committee was very supportive in

Natasha Helfer [00:09:34] my research and therefore was supportive of spirituality being part of your training.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:09:40] Yeah, I don't know if spirituality was so much a part of my training as maybe understanding religion more from a cultural frame and how it affects. There's a lot of multiculturalism as an important frame for how to be an effective therapist. And so that was very much in my program as well as postmodernist frames of reference and all that kind of stuff. So there was certainly a lot of room for it within my particular group of professors.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:11] Okay, so understanding the context where people are coming from that may come into your office, understanding what those contexts may be, how that affected their lives and the work that you're going to be doing with them.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:10:22] That's right.

Research Methods and Study Design

Natasha Helfer [00:10:23] Okay, so your study was definitely one that was, I guess we deem it qualitative versus quantitative. You gather data through extensive interviews and questionnaires. Your sample was fairly small compared to a quantitative study. So in other words, the difference between qualitative and quantitative being that you're going to be looking at more in depth, rich information versus just answering a questionnaire that then can be quantified into, well, 50% of the people answered this way or that way or things like that. So of course there's pros and cons to this type of data. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:11:05] Yeah, I think originally my intention was to do a quantitative study and I wanted to look more at just what women's experiences were, how much shame they felt, and what practices they engaged in sexually and all that kind of thing. Just kind of wanting to get a sample of what Mormon women's experiences were. But when I went to the literature and saw how extremely little there is written about Mormon women in general, but in particular with respect to sexuality, my committee really felt like I needed to do a qualitative study to really first understand what the themes are that emerge within Mormon women's experiences.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:51] Did you find anything out there about Mormon? Were there any studies?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:11:55] A little bit. There's Amy Na, writer. I can't remember what her credentials are. Mary Beth Raines, I think, has written the most about Mormon women and sexuality, not a great deal about that subject, but has written, published some research on Mormon women's experiences that's more quantitative and similar to what I was thinking of doing originally, which is looking at practices and behaviors, but not much more than that.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:21] Okay, so you gathered your sample of women, which came to be 16 altogether. Can you tell me about that process?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:12:29] Sure. So in a qualitative approach, the objective is to really make sure that you've covered all of the themes that would emerge. Meaning what are the experiences? What are the dominant sort of ways of understanding what Mormon women's experiences would be? And so my committee originally thought I needed 10 to 12 people. And I think if it had been up to me, I would have, you know, interviewed 50 people first, because, you know, first of all, I love doing the interviews. I found them extremely interesting.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:13:08] And I just liked connecting with the women themselves as I heard their stories. But my committee just said, you know, stop. 16's enough. You've reached saturation, meaning, you know, you're getting redundancy in the themes. And so. And I was also paying for the interviews, and I was a poor student at the time, so I stopped paying. I think at some point I would like to write a book on the subject. And I have been collecting data just through my clients and will probably do more interviews down the road. But at some point I would like to write a book on the subject.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:42] That'd be awesome. So you asked for women in a certain age bracket. I think they had. It was somewhere between like 23 and 55, somewhere around there. They had to have been married at some point. Were there any people who were divorced? I'm assuming they were all heterosexual. What were some of the things that you were looking for?

What Mormon Women's Sexual Experiences Reveal

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:14:02] Yeah, everyone was heterosexual. There was one woman who had been divorced and remarried, but everyone was married at the time of the interview. And also one of them, I don't know if you said this, but that they grew up in the church. They grew up LDS and had been married at some point. Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:24] As you said, and had grown up within the LDS structure of sexual education, sexual expectation. And you also found that this was a fairly educated group, which maybe doesn't quite fall under the norms as far as, like, post high school, there was a lot of.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:14:39] That's right. So perhaps because I was in the Boston area and went around to wards in that area, I just happened to get a relatively educated group of women who had volunteered. So in that sense, it's just perhaps a limitation of the applicability of the findings, because had I gathered data from across socioeconomic levels, there may have been different themes that would have emerged. Possibly.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:06] And even geographically.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:08] And geographically, yes. One of the things is these were not women that had all grown up in New England. Most of. I mean, people had grown up all over the world, actually. But were there either as Spouses of people that were currently students. So where people had grown up was actually rather diverse. But people all happened to be in New England at the time.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:26] How did you get the women to say, yeah, I'll do this? How did you approach them?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:31] I went to Wards and after Relief Society, got the permission from the Relief Society president or the bishop, and then after the closing prayer, stood up and said, you know, I'm doing this study. This is what I'm looking at. I like to interview you for four to six hours, and I'll pay you $30 for your time. And I had no trouble getting volunteers. It happened pretty quickly.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:54] Okay, so it wasn't a random study, obviously. It was people coming up to you. And that's part of it, too, is, you know, the type of women who would volunteer to talk about their sexuality, which I don't think is necessarily the norm amongst Mormon women. So that also kind of ties into the type of sample you had, Right?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:12] That's right. And, you know, it maybe would mean that these would be women who are more comfortable with their sexuality because they're willing to speak about. Could be that these are women who were poor enough that 30 bucks would get them to talk.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:28] Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:28] And it could be. What I also found was that there were sometimes women who felt quite a bit of distress about their sexual relationship and really were willing to do it because they wanted to talk to someone who was at least a therapist in training on the subject, and they wanted access to other women's experiences. Because one of the things I said was $30 and a copy of my dissertation so they knew they could read other women's experiences. And a lot of women expressed interest in that.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:54] So almost as an opportunity to heal themselves. They saw that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:58] Yes, that. And I think to see, am I normal? What's everyone else express experiencing? Because there's really not a forum to talk about sexuality in the church and

Natasha Helfer [00:17:08] what's normal or not normal.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:17:10] Right. So many people in my experience are having what they consider not normal, and they don't know how normal they are.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:16] Sure. So the purpose of your dissertation was to measure this concept that you talk about, sexual agency. So can you give us a little bit about what you mean by sexual agency?

Defining Sexual Agency in an LDS Context

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:17:28] Sure. So sexual agency really comes out of the radical feminist literature, which I'll talk about if you'd like me to. But sexual agency in particular is the ability to act on your own behalf in the sexual realm. So that's to say that you get to decide if you're a sexual agent, where, when and with whom you choose to be sexual. And I use sexual agency in the dissertation interchangeably with sexual subjectivity, which is to say I'm a subject similarly, but I'm a subject of my sexuality, of my sexual desire, rather than the object of someone else's desire. So that's what I'm getting at is to what degree do Mormon women demonstrate sexual agency or the ability to enact what they want in the sexual realm

Natasha Helfer [00:18:21] instead of being acted upon.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:18:22] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:23] Okay. So, yeah, you start your dissertation by looking through the feminist lens. The whole first, almost third of your dissertation is kind of explaining the feminist critique and its take on patriarchy. And you also differentiate between feminism and radical feminism, which I think you just mentioned that. So, yeah, if you could talk a little bit about those terms and what they mean and how they differ.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:18:50] So feminism in general is just an ideology or it's political theory that basically advocates the equal rights of women in all domains of life, whether that's social, political, economic, that women have equal rights to men and you don't have to

Natasha Helfer [00:19:09] be a woman to be a feminist.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:19:11] That's right, you don't. That's right, exactly. And radical feminism in particular is a current within the broader thinking of feminism that emerged in particular in the 60s and 70s, and that its basic argument was that patriarchy is at the core of women's oppression, and patriarchy being the rule of men over women or the basic assumption of male supremacy that justifies their dominance over women, that that patriarchy is. Is at the root, which is the meaning of radical, of women's disadvantaged status in society.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:19:58] And so radical feminism was the right critique because it in particular is critical of patriarchy for its oppression of women. And then furthermore, it says that sexuality is the most powerful way in which patriarchal ideology oppresses women's strength.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:20:23] So, you know, trying to Remember, it's Catherine MacKinnon, who is a feminist, who talked about, you know, that sexuality is most one's own for women and yet most taken away in patriarchy, that it's women's greatest source of strength. And so if you can oppress or suppress that, then you keep women from being able to navigate their way to their own strength, and then that's how you can keep them subservient. So that's radical feminist theory, and it intersected nicely with my question, because here I'm looking at a patriarchal group, Mormonism, and in particular that ideology's effect on women's sexuality.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:08] So in essence, radical feminism is agreeing with our Mormon Doctrine that sexuality is the most sacred part of our self, in a sense. And when that is oppressed against or whatever these patriarchy terms are, then that's when we are most vulnerable as women.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:21:29] Yes, that's right.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:30] So can you go ahead and define patriarchy, then?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:21:34] So, you know, patriarchy is basically a system of power that. That organizes society based on the assumption of male superiority. So it's men who are. It's the structures of that society are organized in such a way that you say men have dominance, men get advantage over women, men get to rule and define what the way of life is for women. I think one person I wrote about in my dissertation, you know, men set the stage, and women get to be the actors upon the stage that's set by men. And so patriarchy is the role of men.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:19] And this isn't always done in a mean way. Or sometimes I think people are like, well, you know, my husband isn't mean, or the people that I see as my leaders aren't awful, you know, predatory type men. And so they have a hard time understanding that it still falls under the umbrella of patriarchy.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:41] Yes, because they don't.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:43] Yeah, they don't define it that negative.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:46] Yeah. And I make a distinction of benevolent patriarchy, which is Mormonism, as opposed to other forms of patriarchy, where it's not just about, you know, autocratic leadership in. In benevolent patriarchy, it's more about stewardship and care towards the needs of women and children.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:07] Protection.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:23:08] Protection, exactly. So Mormonism is a benevolent patriarchy. So it's still about the rule of men and male dominance, but also with men given the stewardship of caring for, taking care of the women in their stewardship.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:28] Well, and so you point out that even though women are told that they're wonderful and of worth in our church, LDS culture, they are told this by men. Men are the ones who are telling them whether or not they are of value. And so therefore, that definitely falls under this umbrella of patriarchy. Women leaders are still presided over by men. Yes, we have leaders who are women, and yes, we have women who teach and all those things, but it's still all under the umbrella of the prophet who is a man. And then I think you also mentioned too, that the overall umbrella is under God, which even though we see it as Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, it's definitely Heavenly Father who we are focused on.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:15] Right, that's right. So, yeah, so it's a system in which, you know, from a radical feminist perspective anyway, would say, you know, men define what is true what is right? What can be considered truth?

Natasha Helfer [00:24:32] The prophet has the power to have revelation for all of us. So it's a man who has the power to do that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:38] Right. And so men have the power to define women. And. And one of the radical feminist critiques of patriarchy is that gender ideology, gender role assignments, is a tool of patriarchy that if you say women are supposed to be X, Y and Z, it's a way of keeping women in a subservient position. And one of the positions I sort of demonstrate in the dissertation is to say we hear about women's roles all the time relative to how much we hear about men's roles. Men's roles are a given. Women's roles need to be defined by the men in our lives. So it's about prescribing a particular role for women is a tool of patriarchy according to radical feminism.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:30] Right. And even this idea that, you know, we're told to become perfected as Christ, so Christ would be our main role model, who is a man. Therefore it's kind of this idea that women are to become like this man. So it's. Yeah, it's a little. It can be a little confusing from

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:25:49] a radical feminist perspective. It's saying for women to say that God is male is to ask women to be identified what perfection is and what I should be is basically other than what I am, that I supposed to be identify with the other sex as being what epitomizes perfection. And even though we believe in mother in heaven, again, a radical feminist perspective would say she's silent, therefore the role model is around silence.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:17] And we can't speak to her.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:26:19] Right. She's background. And so again, it's women identifying themselves as other relative to men is a psychologically oppressive stance.

Feminist Critiques of Patriarchy and LDS Women

Natasha Helfer [00:26:34] Okay, so let's review then, the main arguments that you lay out in your dissertation that radical feminism makes regarding patriarchy and how we as LDS women could fall into those kind of predicaments. And I think the first thing that you discuss is kind of this delegitimization of desire.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:26:55] Yeah, so, right. So radical feminism would say the way that sexuality gets taken away from women is saying that desire is not legitimate for women, it's not feminine. So the gender construct is what constitutes femininity. And femininity is to be desirable, but not to have desire.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:27:18] So you orient to sexuality by trying to be sexually desired by men who are the agents of desire. And there's lots of ways in which this gets communicated. But the best way to be a woman in A patriarchal culture is to be a virgin, to be virginal, to be pure.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:27:39] And then if you're going to be sexual, it's only with an accommodation to your husband, essentially because the desire is not given legitimacy through the discourse. And so that's the radical feminist perspective. And then I think that the other view is that it limits women's control in the sexual realm, either through reproductive control or through the ability to control when and how they are sexual. So making themselves vulnerable to rape and sexual coercion and so on.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:20] And then moving even further with that, when those things happen, the laws around rape or abortion or those kinds of more serious things in even our larger culture are still under a patriarchal type umbrella.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:28:36] That's right. And you know, the way that this is also challenged by women, radical feminism would say the other way that this is challenging for women is that the gender ideology is around at once being non sexual and needing to and also take care of men at the same time that because you are a woman, you are inherently a nurturer and you find your comfort in comforting others. And so that sets women up to be gatekeepers at the same time that they have to be kind and nurturing, so they're managing the urgency of male sexual desire, trying to keep themselves virginal and pure, while at the same time taking care of his ego.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:29:28] And that this sets women up for sexual coercion. And then the other thing radical feminism talks about is this idea that the ideology around sexual desire is that you're either virginal or if you have desire, then you are the other extreme, the whore. You know, that you are one or the other. And so that oftentimes, if women show desire, then they lose their rights to say no, essentially because they've proved they're not the virginal pure, they're the other, they're the whore. And therefore they're not able to say, to refuse unwanted sexual advances like high

Natasha Helfer [00:30:08] school girls who maybe have built up a reputation of being loose, then the boys who are going to ask them out are going to expect them to put out.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:17] Right. So, and just you know that what radical feminism again would say is that women, if they show any desire, then they kind of lose their ability to stop something when they want it to stop. Or, you know, they've now put themselves in another category altogether. So, yeah, that's what I was going to say. So I think these are all the ways that the radical feminist critique says patriarchy undermines women's autonomy in the sexual realm, is in all those ways.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:44] And you mention object lessons that kind of go along with this delegitimizing, sorry, desire that we have in our young women's lessons. You know, the chewed gum. Can you talk about that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:59] Sure. Absolutely. So after I looked at what the radical feminist critique was, then I looked at how is it applicable or how do we see it in the church. One of the things that I at least heard plenty of growing up was this idea that if you are sexually engaged in any way, if you have sexual experience, you lose your desirability. And of course, your desirability is really this important thing that you have to hold. Because getting married and being wanted was, at least in my young women's program, held up as very important for women.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:36] Mine, too.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:31:38] Yes. And so I remember several object lessons where I remember my teacher pulled out a pack of gum. She said, jennifer, would you like a piece of gum? I said, yes. She opened it up, she stuck it in her mouth, she chewed it, she spit it out and then said, would you still like it?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:31:52] Of course I didn't. But the point is, you know, don't be chewed gum, because no one will want you if you have sexual experience, you lose your desirability. So for heaven's sakes, don't be sexual and don't have desire.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:32:06] They're going to work against you. And, you know, I've given presentations around the country, and people have told me other ones, you know, this crushed flour, the smashed cake. And I've asked men, you know, if they ever received those object lessons. And I never had anyone say that they did. They just said, you know, we were taught not to chew the gum and not to smash the cake, but not, you know, but not.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:29] Not that they were going to be.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:32:31] Yeah. Not that their experience would make them become less desirable to her.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:36] When you quote David O. McKay, I'm going to go ahead and read this. It says, the flower by the roadside that catches the dust of every traveler is not the one to be admired and is seldom, if ever, plucked. But the one blooming way up on the hillside, protected by the perpendicular cliff, is the flower with the virgin perfume, the one the boy will almost risk his life to possess. Sorry.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:03] Yeah, so it's unfortunate that possess part at the end, but yes, all of it.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:10] Well, this is almost. It's almost a message to the boys, too, that if you know that a girl have dust on her, that you make sure you don't want to pluck her. So again, it's not even taking into account the woman's personality or what she has to offer, or it's more about whether or not she has dust on her.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:32] Absolutely, absolutely. So the whole person and her whole history and all of her experiences and what she's learned from them are not what matters. That women are to be the objects of male desire and they're to make themselves that way in order to have the good fortune of somebody wanting you. That's patriarchal ideology in practice.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:55] And then the sense of shame for the girls who have experimented with sex before marriage is pretty overwhelming with these types of kind of constructs in place.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:34:05] Yeah, absolutely. So I did find with my dissertation that the women who had done more than they felt comfortable with in the sexual realm or had masturbated had carried a lot of shame. And even if they had repented and they would say to me, I really believe that God has forgiven me, I don't hold any question about that. But often had not told their husbands about their experiences because they really feared that he would not be able to forgive them for it. So.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:38] So they figured it out with God, but they haven't been able to figure it out within their social construct.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:34:42] Right, that's right. And, you know, they would say, you know, because I've been forgiven, I don't need to talk about this with my husband. But I would say it really does expose the anxiety, the social anxiety, because if they really felt they were forgiven and they didn't feel that their husband was going to have any issue with it, they could speak about it freely about all that they learned from those exceptions experiences and what it's taught them about who they are in the world and so on.

Sexual Shame and Virtue Narratives in the Church

Natasha Helfer [00:35:07] Well, that idea of we marry our best friend and don't we want to be able to share everything with our best friend if they truly are our best friend? Right. But somehow we're limited, even within that very sacred relationship, to really be ourselves in a sense now. And I know that for the men who are maybe listening to our program, this. This obviously is related towards women, what we're discussing today. But I don't want to ignore the fact that this also has a lot of correlation with what men feel as well within our culture. I mean, the sense of shame when they have sexual experiences or have masturbated or have looked at pornography or whatever it is that they have done also is usually hidden many times from their wives is not.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:35:56] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:57] They have kind of those same issues.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:35:59] Yes. And I think there's kind of two pieces that I was trying to look at in the dissertation. There's patriarchy and patriarchal ideology around sexuality and desire for women. But then it's all happening within a context of sexual conservatism that has a singular standard of conduct for the men and women. So there's a lot of inhibition of sexuality in general. So those two were coming together, in my mind, to create a lot of shame within women and a lot of inhibition, at least within some of the women that I interviewed. But I would say that while you don't have the oppressive gender ideology, that men also can very much manage feelings of sexual shame.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:39] That's my belief that they can. And that came out through some of the interviews when women talked about their husband's experiences. And I also have a colleague here who's writing a parallel dissertation to mine and looking at Mormon men and looking at their experiences in the sexual realm also. So I'm really eager to see how his research comes together.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:03] So you're finding that although the men do also have sexual shame, that it doesn't inhibit them as much as the women, Is that what you're saying?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:37:11] That's my presumption at this point, based both in my clinical experience and in my experience in the interviews of what women said about their husbands. But there is a lot of inhibition of sexuality in the church and a lot of anxiety about it in general. And I think that what I see most often is that women tend to manage that anxiety by disconnecting from sex, which the radical feminist perspective would say is what is what you would expect, because it's so disowned from femininity and being female. And what I see men doing is splitting off from it more. It's not integrated. And so then sometimes engaging in behaviors that are very incongruent with their professed beliefs. But I think at the core is sexual shame.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:04] So it's not feminine to be sexual. And there's. I think you say there's no models of sexual righteous women in the church as far as somebody we can look towards. We've either got the Virgin Mary, which is an impossibility for all of us to live up to, or then not necessarily in our LDS culture, but I think in Christian culture at large. You know, you've got Eve, the temptress, the one who seduced Adam, and there's not much in between there.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:38:33] That's right. That's right. So we really don't have, in my opinion, a model of healthy female sexuality, how to be a sexual being, embrace it, to feel good about it, to know that sexual desire and pleasure are good and legitimate. And a gift from God, and that its expression is both important and part of what it is to be whole and to be spiritual. We don't have that. I wish we did.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:02] Yeah, me too. So when I read the interviews with the women you spoke with, going back to this idea of desire, the majority of them did report that desire was scary or uncomfortable, even out of the context of what they were doing with boys. But even their first sexual experiences, just becoming aware of their bodies touching themselves as a young child or beginning the masturbation process. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:39:32] Yeah. So I was interested in just understanding first girls, initial women as girls, what their initial experiences were of desire and their own body's capacity for arousal. And so I asked women what their initial experiences were and how they felt about them. And there was the range. One woman in particular said that when she was 8 or 9 years old, she sat on her doll's head and her body responded to it, and she stood up immediately because she understood implicitly there was something wrong with what she was doing.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:40:16] And she said the words that went through her head were bad, dirty bad, and she just felt that it was wrong. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, and I found that these were often good predictors for what later marital experiences they would have. But on the other end of the spectrum was a woman that, as a young girl, had her initial experiences of arousal and understanding what her body was capable of. And she felt very clear that the context mattered, that this was meant for marriage and for a later time. But she felt very excited about what her body was capable of. It was like a really lovely secret, you know, that she knew there was something her body was capable of, and it was a wonderful thing.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:02] It wasn't tied with shame. And it's interesting because I think if people, especially in the LDS mindset, if they would hear that story about the little girl who at 7 or 8, immediately has this negative reaction to maybe something that could have led to masturbation, they'll say, well, of course she had that negative reaction. She was being led by the spirit to say that that was bad and that she shouldn't be arousing those passions within herself. What can you tell me as far as why that isn't necessarily the case?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:41:35] Well, because what I would say is that I don't think arousal and desire are bad at all. I think they're good. I think they're wonderful, and it's part of God's gift to us. And what I often say to my female clients Is that God wouldn't have given you a clitoris if he didn't want you to experience pleasure. It's its only function. It can't be there for anyone else. It's only there for you. Those are gifts. They're wonderful things. And sexuality is a powerful thing for good or for evil. And so context matters. And how you use your sexuality matters. But being sexual is not the problem. It's how you're sexual that matters.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:23] Yeah. And my guess is that by seven and eight years old, we have as parents already given our children quite a few messages surrounding sexuality.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:42:31] Definitely.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:32] As far as potty training and how we talk about our privates.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:42:36] Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think more than. Parents realize that it's the implicit messages that often get communicated most to their children, not the explicit things that we say. I mean, if you're saying sexuality is a wonderful, you know, thing, at the same time that mom is horribly anxious and uncomfortable and stressed out as she's saying it, the child understands there's another message, that there's something about this that is scary, that's off, that can't be talked about.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:09] Yeah. They say, like, what, 80% of our communication is non verbal.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:43:13] Right, right. And not to mention that parents largely don't talk about it. They really don't. They may, you know, often on the wedding night are pulling their daughter aside and she's like, mom, this is just way too uncomfortable. Where were you in first grade when I was hearing about it?

Natasha Helfer [00:43:31] So I do find it interesting that you mentioned that women are deemed virtuous. You kind of touched on that. But we don't necessarily give the same label to men. That we do spend a lot of time talking about the role of women and that virtue is equated to sexual purity.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:43:52] Yeah, absolutely. So it's very much how we esteem women, I think, is to call them virtuous and that we think, we think of it in terms of this notion of purity. Sexual purity, innocence, almost naivete, is a way to really be that feminine, desirable woman. And you know, one woman that I spoke with talked about feeling a real loss following her wedding night that instead of feeling like, wow, now I've received entry into a wonderful potential and a wonderful set of experiences that await me. Instead. There was a sense of losing something important, which was her status as being virginal and innocent. And that's very sad.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:38] The call to be virtuous women is very much in our language currently. I think I heard that term several times just in the last general conference. And I don't hear that same call for men to be virtuous men. It is an interesting choice of language and.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:44:56] Right, right, exactly. We link it very much with sexuality. I think even if we don't fully acknowledge it or articulate that with women, we do.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:06] And that then it can be central to our self esteem and our idea of who we are. And therefore like this woman you're talking about, when she loses her virgin status, even though it's within marriage, she still feels that loss of no longer having that identity.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:45:21] That's right. I think many my experience in interviewing the women was that the transition from non marriage into marriage was for very few of them. For most of them it was very awkward at best. And the transition from feeling like it's all about no and you can't be sexual to now you can be sexual around the clock and it's all okay is just was too incongruent with their sense of self. They just couldn't sort of, they didn't already see themselves as sexual beings and they didn't eagerly await the context in which it could be expressed. And so suddenly now they're needing to be desirous, be expressive. And this is all very foreign to their concept of themselves.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:11] It's never been taught to them how to be, how to tune into this, this aspect of themselves. And this is where I, I do feel like in my own practice as well, I don't have any research to back this up, but that men don't have necessarily this struggle in their getting married and that adjustment to being married. I mean they, they do have struggles with sexual shame of their own. Right. But that the jump into marriage usually for men is something very greatly un anticipated fun. They look at it as exciting. I agree with you. I don't see that as much for women and women's experience.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:46:48] And I would say that men have had more of an erotic education than women have had in large part. And men can't help but get one. When you're a little boy, it's just easy to discover your sexuality and your capacity for pleasure. You've figured it out by age 2 in the bathtub, if not so sooner. And for girls it's often, you know, their capacity for sexual arousal and pleasure is more hidden. And girls don't learn about their vulvas, they don't learn about their clitoris. I mean I was talking to my, when I was 30, my 30 year old friend who didn't know what a clitoris was and she was very educated woman. This was not, you know, she Had a master's degree and she didn't know and she'd never learned this about herself.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:34] So I've had that experience as well with women.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:47:38] Right, yeah. And so we just don't. It's like we're anxious, I think, as parents and as teachers, that if we teach girls about their sexuality, then they'll run out and use it and be irresponsible. And in fact, the data is actually in the opposite direction. The more educated and aware girls and young women are, the better equipped they are to make intelligent, responsible decisions around their sexuality. But furthermore, the more equipped they are to be passionately engaged in a marriage and to have a happy marriage. So we really do ourselves a disservice when we don't teach girls about their capacity for desire and pleasure in the sexual realm.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:17] Yeah, we do our daughters a disservice. That's great research. And I love this term that you use, erotic education versus sexual education. Because, you know, sexual education implies the anatomy. And even, like you said, even that is usually not very complete. You know, we do talk about the vagina, we talk about the penis. Usually 2 to 5 year olds, if they're going to be taught any type of anatomically correct language, those are the two terms we're going to use.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:48] Although for women the vagina is not what they see or are able to touch on their outside. And so we don't use the terms vulva or labia. I'm with you. I didn't hear the term proclitaris in a sexual education type format probably until college was not taught in high school education or anything like that. Because of course, then, yeah, you're teaching that there's this pleasurable organ that that's all its purpose is. So why are we going to talk about that in high school?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:49:18] Right, exactly.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:20] Although I love that. I'm so glad God gave us this nice little organ too. And with a very, I think, intrinsic message. I think it's very interesting that we are given an organ that that's its only purpose is about pleasure for us as women. And maybe knowing that we would be in this patriarchy, that was a very interesting way to give us a very clear message about our sexuality.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:49:48] That's right. And I think validating of the radical feminist critique, as imperfect of a critique as it may be, is saying that if you're going to inhibit women and keep them in their place, you will inhibit their capacity for pleasure and desire in the sexual realm. When you look at some of the more extreme countries in Islam, in the Middle east and so on that have some still practice the removal of the clitoris as a way of keeping her virginal and pure and desirable for some

Natasha Helfer [00:50:20] man down the road, which is called female circumcision. Although male circumcision does not stop them from having an orgasm. So it's very interesting.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:50:30] Right?

Natasha Helfer [00:50:32] Yeah. I think you said the clitoris, it takes care of no one else. Yes, I love that. It's like a bumper sticker or something.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:50:42] Yes, exactly.

Women's Role as Caretakers and Its Sexual Costs

Natasha Helfer [00:50:44] So let's go back then, to this idea about the role we have as women in the church of being kind of being benevolent, of having the needs of others on our mind. These are all considered very much feminine strengths. And then I think, can yet be confusing within the context of premarital sex. So in other words, pleasing the partner and not taking our own needs or desires into account, those are kind of some very confusing messages that also this feminist critique is about. Can you expound on that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:51:19] Sure, sure. So I think absolutely part of the radical feminist perspective is that we really set women up to fail in the sexual realm and to feel more devalued and undermined when they're trying to bother, stay virginal and pure, and then manage male sexual desires while being nice about it. Many of the women that I interviewed talked about that in adolescence as being very difficult to navigate, that they valued themselves as really nice girls, so to speak, and very wanting to not disappoint. And then knowing that he wanted to go further than she thought she probably should, and not knowing how to refuse without seeming meaning. So she's trying to be both virginal and nice at the same time, that his sexual wishes are pushing her, putting her in a double bind.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:13] How can I be nice and say no at the same time?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:52:15] And oftentimes women would not say no, and they would be nice, and then they would feel all the guilt and the shame and feel ashamed in their relationship with God and with their relationship with their bishop. And then even with the boyfriend feeling like, now does he think I'm a slut because I was willing to do that much with him. And none of this was based in their physical desire, which is very sad. It wasn't even like I really wanted to do something. I did more than I thought I should from my own moral framework, and I therefore need to repent, that's one thing. But to feel like the whole thing was around trying to take care of these competing demands, none of which is connected to your sense of self, is very sad for these girls and was very fractious. For them, psychologically speaking.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:57] They're not taking their own desire into account. That's not even the point.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:53:02] Right. And, you know, one of my conclusions is I really think that we would help young women in the church make better decisions in the sexual realm if we would teach them about desire and the importance of what it is that they want and consulting what they want when they're making decisions. Because the women in my dissertation who did the very best were the ones who saw the law of chastity as something that worked for them. They wanted it. They wanted to abide by this standard of behavior. And they expected the men they were with to do it also because they saw it as ultimately benefiting them.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:53:38] And so they really owned it in this important way. And it shaped their decision making and shaped their confidence in refusing unwanted advances and holding men responsible for their behavior. But it was really around them, legitimizing their desire in the broadest sense. Like, sexuality is good, I desire it, it's lovely, and I want it in this way and in this context. And it wasn't about trying to manage their desirability at all. When women were trying to do that, they got really stuck. They got themselves in a lot of complicated situations.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:13] Yeah. And then you mentioned that for some women, they're able to manage and navigate gave this prior to marriage because they do have the structure that allows them to be very clear about saying no. So some women are very comfortable with that boundary. But now after marriage, now they are in that role of being the help me and being the supportive spouse and taking care of the spouse. Now they start struggling with that idea of how to create sexual boundaries.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:54:41] That's right. So for some women, you're right that they premaritally felt really comfortable saying no because it just reinforced their goodness in their mind and that they were virginal and so on, and they had the support of God behind them in the institution of the church to say, I don't need to say yes to that. But then upon getting married, then the wifely duties then came into their heads and felt like that now it wasn't okay to refuse unwanted sexual advances. Now to be proper is to give him whatever he wants. And it completely snuffed out their desire. So still in that same frame of, I'm supposed to take care of you, that's my job. But if you equate sexuality with duty, you will never experience sexuality with desire at the same time. It can't be work and play at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:35] So again, that inability to tune into their desire is what is causing a roadblock for them after marriage.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:55:43] Right. And specifically, the desire gets snuffed out by the sense of duty to his needs, his psychological well being. It's snuffed out by their feeling that their role is to be a nurturer. No room for the needs of the

Natasha Helfer [00:56:00] self and their own desires. Yeah.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:56:03] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:04] So taking this whole theme kind of a step further, this also plays a role with sexual violence in the sense of women who say no, does it really mean no? And even going all the way to rape, it does play a role in the sense of that. Do I have the right to say no?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:56:29] Right. And a few of the women I interviewed were in situations where there was a lot of sexual coercion and often they felt caught. Which is interesting because in our culture now there is sort of the pull of both. If you prove you're a woman by being sexually liberal, that's obviously not in the church, but that's in the broader culture that you're not too inhibited, you're not too much of a prude. And then we have a competing one that you are virginal and that you are good and you're restrained if you're the best kind of woman. And so the women who were the most vulnerable to sexual coercion, I think felt the pull of that other strain, like, I can't be this super, super conservative, frigid Mormon woman. I have to show that I'm not that

Natasha Helfer [00:57:19] restricted or restricted or inhibited.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:57:22] And so then they would again, it had nothing to do with what they wanted. It was around trying to manage their desirability now just within a different frame, and feeling his pressure and feeling like they had to kind of take care of him and make themselves look good to him and then doing way more than they felt comfortable with or that they wanted. So again, very much disconnected from themselves through the experiences.

Natasha Helfer [00:57:49] Yeah. It's interesting how you bring up that both on both sides of the range, it's still about the woman being defined by her sexuality. Whether it's the liberal way or the conservative way, it's still what women are worried about as being perceived either sexually competent or incompetent.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:58:11] That's right. And also very much seeing their job as taking care of men. If I'm a good woman, I take care of you. And also managing desirability. And you feel good about me.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:25] Well, and I know too that when I work with those who have suffered sexual trauma, there's very much this theme of guilting the self. Some will guilt Themselves for the entire thing. Some others will maybe not so much guilt themselves for the actual rape itself or the sexual act itself, but they will still guilt themselves for having found themselves in the position of. To begin with, I should have listened to the spirit. I shouldn't have known better. I shouldn't have been with him that night. I shouldn't have been wearing a certain dress that provoked him or those kinds of things that led up to the sexual trauma.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:58:59] That's right. And I think, again, radical feminism would say that's a product of patriarchy that will basically blame the victim by saying she was somehow collusive in this process, that she found herself in this disadvantaged state. She shouldn't have been wearing what she wore, as you said, or doing what she did or being where she was, rather than holding the men fully responsible for their behavior. And I think it was President Holland that said in a talk recently that the notion that women's behavior is somehow responsible for what men choose and what men do was an idea that made him want to throw up, is literally what he said.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:59:40] I thought that was a great message, because I think we still can give that idea in young women's lessons when we teach about modesty, that this isn't about honoring their bodies and honoring their own dignity and their sense of self, that this is about trying to manage the sexual impulses of the boys they're with. And I think that's a destructive message.

Natasha Helfer [01:00:02] Right. So again, having the lessons around modesty be about the girl herself, not about others around her is what would be more valuable.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:00:12] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [01:00:15] Okay, so then I think the third feminist critique that I'll bring about is this idea that in patriarchy, women must somehow change themselves from their natural state to something more desirable. You talked about this a little bit during Desire, but I'd like to focus on it more.

Natasha Helfer [01:00:32] There's a quote you talk about in your dissertation, and we'd probably never hear this today, but I just have to say it. And this is from Kimball. It says you might take a careful inventory of your habits, your speech, your appearance, your weight. If it is heavier than most people appreciate, take each item and analyze it. Are your dresses too short, too long, too revealing, too old fashioned? Does your weight drive off possible suitors? That's. Wait twice, by the way.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:01] Do you laugh raucously? Are you too selfish? Are you interested only in your own interests? Or do you project yourselves into the lives of others? Do you have annoying mannerisms? Do you repeat old stories till they are threadbare? Are you Too anxious or too disinterested? Can you make some sacrifices to be acceptable? Are you dull or are you too exuberant? Are you flashy or are you disinteresting too much makeup or too little? Are you scrupulously clean, both physically and morally? I mean, holy cow, how confusing is that? It's like, am I this or am I that or oh, my goodness, I was getting a headache just reading it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:01:40] Right, Absolutely. So, you know, very much this idea in the radical feminist view is that women are taught to be desirable by shaping themselves, containing themselves, becoming what they believe men want them to be. And if they can do that adequately, then they'll get the gift of his wanting her, him choosing her.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:02:04] One of the things I talk about in some of the presentations I do on sexuality is that sexuality I think of as very much as a language, a way in which we engage with one another and express ourselves to one another. And that oftentimes men are seen as hormonal and natural man taking over and so on. And that oftentimes the sexual domain is the language in which they feel most comfortable because they are very comfortable within their own bodies.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:02:35] But I think women are much less comfortable in their own bodies and much less comfortable in the language of the body because of the way that we get socialized out of comfort from our bodies when we move into adolescence.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:02:49] So we as young children often feel very free in our bodies, feel very comfortable running, playing, expressing ourselves, no sense of inhibition. But then as you move into adolescence and the culture starts teaching you that now your goal is to look good, to be desirable, to be wanted, then girls turn on their bodies and they feel like now they have to contain it, manage it, make it into something else, shape it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:03:15] And that it really sets up a dualism psychologically within women, that they can really dislike their bodies, that they feel like their bodies are in competition with them, that their body, you know, their desire to eat, for example, is interfering with their desirability. So the self care they abandon and they're trying to be something for someone else. And I think it makes it very hard than to move into marriage and to have the comfort in your imperfect, flawed body, to fully expose it, express yourself with it, to really allow yourself to be known and cherished. So again, it's really a setup for poor marital sexuality.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:01] Yeah. And one of the arguments of feminism is that this is also equally damaging to men to have these types of ideas given to them, that they're missing out as well, that they are disserviced by all these types of cultural constructs and going back to your adolescence, many of the disorders that we see adolescent girls struggling with, such as eating disorders and cutting themselves, those are all things that, although we do see them in men and boys as well, it is statistically much more more relevant in the female population.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:04:36] Yes. Right. Yeah. And I agree with you on the point that it's a disservice to men because I see so many men who want so much to love their wives in the sexual realm and it really is about love and self expression and it's a domain that for men, those vulnerable, tender feelings and it's often just not received by the women that they're with. They're not able to engage in that conversation and it's very hard for them and they manage a lot of pain and loneliness.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online@mormonstories.org if you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin, as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even a word situation through discovering mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [01:05:52] Nearer my God to thee, Nearer to thee E' en though it be a cross that raised me still all my songs shall be Nearer my go to thee Nearer my go to thee Le.

Part Two: Atonement, Forgiveness, and Sexuality

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 215

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org okay, so

Natasha Helfer [00:00:15] we've talked about all the feminist, I guess, critiques. Why don't you tell me a little bit more about the positives, about, you know, what are the positives of our sexual messages? Are there any positives that we women can. Like you said, when you were an adolescent, you found some protection and some boundaries that you could place around yourself that felt comfortable for yourself.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:00:39] Sure. Well, I think that for the women that demonstrated sexual agency, they were the minority of my sample, but for those for whom it worked, it worked very well. And that is to say that, like I mentioned earlier, that they really owned the law of chastity as a system that actually protected what they most wanted. What they really wanted was a committed form of sexuality, as in marriage. They wanted somebody who had reserved this very sacred, vulnerable form of self expression for the context of marriage and specifically for them. That it gave them a great sense of safety. Safety. And so they really cherished that cultural gift, so to speak, and said, you know, this is what I want.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:01:33] And it's not about shame and me not being enough. It's about my faith really giving me an opportunity that I really want for myself and for my marriage down the road. So they, you know, in the case of these women, they did marry men who also had remained virginal until marriage, they moved very comfortably into marital sexuality because desire was never the problem. They always understood that desire was a good thing, and they were able to just be excited on the wedding night, not afraid, excited that now they could move into this new domain, this new way of being together that symbolize their union and this next important step in their lives.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:21] Yes, I would say these are women that felt very comfortable that they were sexual beings, felt very clear that God was comfortable with that and saw that

Natasha Helfer [00:02:28] they had been created that way, that there was a purpose in that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:32] That's right. And that the men in their lives were also very committed to the same ideals, committed to family, that the church, in a sense, domesticates male sexuality in a way that's protective of women and what they most want.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:49] Yeah. You speak of this positive that there's much less of a double standard within our LDS culture regarding sexual behavior. There's many differences in how we perceive desire, but we do differ significantly from other cultures, even other Christian cultures, in that we do expect both our young men and women to adhere to the same law of chastity so men are held to that standard equally. Much more so, I think, than.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:03:16] That's right. I think I cite this research in the dissertation, which looks at the differences in compliance among faiths that hold virginity till marriage as a standard. And I remember Catholicism in particular is one of them. But there is much more. There's much less compliance among men in Catholicism than there is among men in Mormonism. So we have a way of both sides saying we value it and really meaning it. Meaning that there are losses for men who choose to be sexual before marriage, meaning institutional losses that can't hold the. You know, that they lose their right to pass the sacrament, hold the priesthood, those kinds of things.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:03:54] And so there's. So compliance is higher. And I think that eases the double standard in its effect on women. Where I was at Boston College, which was a Catholic school, and teaching this human sexuality course, really seeing the ways in which girls there really did carry the sense that they should be virginal, felt a lot of shame for it, but were often partnering with Catholic boys who didn't hold the same standard. And that's very fractious and undermining for someone who's saying, I'm supposed to be virginal and you don't. And so how do we do that?

Natasha Helfer [00:04:27] Right, right. Well, at least the standard for us is the same. What about the concept of the atonement or forgiveness? Did you look at any of those things? I mean, those are concepts obviously very dear to our doctrine. Were those tools that women could somehow tap into or not so much?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:04:48] You know, I would say yes, they were able to, in the sense that they really felt clear that God had forgiven them for bad decisions that they had made. And I really think they believed it. I don't think they questioned that God held them responsible for it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:05:02] But again, as I said earlier, they would hold still the question of whether or not their husbands could tolerate knowing this about them, whether their husbands would actually forgive them. The other way that I would actually talk about is there was one person I interviewed in particular who had grown up in a fairly abusive home, psychologically abusive, and in her adolescence, had made a lot of poor decisions in the sexual realm because she was looking for love and looking for approval that she'd gotten so little of as a child. And she found the church to be very embracing of her personally. She had a wonderful bishop who really understood what her situation had been, who was compassionate, who didn't have the kind of criticism and devaluing stance that she anticipated, because that's very much what she'd experienced in her life up to that point.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:05:57] And so she really felt that she was able to engage in the question of repentance and the atonement, and really felt that her bishop, that here, from a radical feminist perspective, would be seen as, you know, a man. She's going to a man, she has to talk about her sexuality to him. And that's how wrong it is that she found it to be very helpful for her, very reassuring to have his approval, his warmth, and his clarity of thought in the process of her coming into a new way of life within herself and around her sexuality.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:31] Yeah, that's what I think is so fascinating that this same repentance process and experience can have such diverse effects on people. I hear the people who just were traumatized by that, and I hear the people who, in essence, it almost kind of saved their lives. So it is interesting how the same process can. Can have very different outcomes for our members. And I think that's important to look at because I think that there's danger in staying only on one side of the equation on that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:04] That's right. And I think a piece I would add to that is that it's really the social forgiveness that women found themselves struggling with, and I think partly because of the way that we educate the boys in the church, which is to say, if you stay virginal, then you will get the gift of a virgin woman who will want to be sexual with you for eternity. It's kind of a setup of saying

Natasha Helfer [00:07:30] that

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:33] you get to have this prize of the virtuous, virginal woman, essentially. Also, I think men in my practice anyway, have talked about feeling set up, which is to say that they kind of grew up believing that once they got married, then sex was going to be a regular part of their lives. And then marrying someone who didn't feel comfortable in the sexual realm and then feeling that they'd been tricked a bit around what this was going to actually mean for them.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:57] Right. Yeah. And I talk a lot about this with my couples. As far as the word intimacy, we usually reserve that to mean physical intimacy. But, you know, intimacy espouses so much more than just the physical and kind of this idea. If I laid out all my stuff on the table, you know, the crap, the good everything, would you still love me? You know, would you still love me if you knew everything about me? And I think this can go either way for men and women. And I think many times in LDS marriages, at least, what I see for the ones who are coming in to see me is that these underlying themes of shame and secrecy are often what are the main issues ruining the relationship, even though they have different words for it.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:37] You know, they'll say, well, it's pornography, or it's because we don't talk to each other, or it's because of communication. But really what's underlying that is the shame and secrecy.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:08:46] Absolutely. And I really think a vital, you know, vibrant sexual relationship is very much linked to the feelings of authenticity, the feelings of safety and really being able to expose and express all of who you are, warts and all, imperfection and all, and to still be received by the other. That partly why sexuality gets shut down in long term relationships, in my opinion, is because people are anxious about whether or not they're really going to be accepted all the way through. And so they will pick up on signals from their spouse and edit themselves and not bring to the relationship the parts of themselves that they think would not be desirable to him. And then it's hard to really encourage desire and to be fully expressive of who you are when you feel like that it may not all be received well. So I think that's a really important part of psychological and sexual intimacy.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:47] Yeah. Am I still lovable? Am I still worthy of your love? Even though I have faltered or I'm not maybe everything you thought I was? So what can you tell us about your findings as far as. Can you break it down? As far as I know this wasn't quantitative, but can you kind of give us an idea of how many women out of the 16 you would say did have healthy sexual agency, how many had awful sexual agency, and what did the middle look like?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:10:18] Yeah, again, it's not representative, so it's not fair to say 10% are one way or the other. But of the 16, I roughly put three in the category of having sexual agency premaritally and postmaritally. Sometimes people weren't perfect in all moments, in all situations. But in large part, three of those women really held the stance of being sexual agents in all contexts. And then I'm trying to remember, I don't know if I wrote it this way in the dissertation, but I know at least two women did very poorly in all contexts.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:10:53] But I would say the majority of the women didn't do all that well. That's what I would say. Meaning I would hope for them to have a lot more comfort with being sexual beings than they exhibited. Some, as I have mentioned in this interview, anyway, some did better in the premarital realm and then didn't do so well postmaritally.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:11:15] And then others, it was the opposite. Some didn't do so well premaritally, but then in the context of marriage and marrying a good guy who they felt safer with, and they felt they could expose more of themselves with that, they grew into more sexual agency in the context of marriage. So I would say, unfortunately, it was a minority that really had the healthiest sexuality, the sexuality that we would hope all women would have, the kind of agency we would hope all women would have within themselves. And the majority were inhibited to some degree or another, with maybe, again, a couple being the most extreme.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:53] Right. And so going back to your sample, and I know these are just assumptions, and maybe there's people out there who want to test these assumptions, which I hope they do, but with it being a highly educated group, with it being a group willing to talk about their sexuality, with it being a group maybe even outside of traditional Utah, that's a little surprising to me that it was still the majority. And that, I think, speaks to that. If that sample had a lot of issues, then my assumption would be that this would be a general problem among our whole population.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:12:30] So, yes, that would be very much what my feeling is. Also, of course, I don't have the data to back that up, but certainly in my experience as a therapist, of course, those are the couples that are coming to me. But even just among friends and associates in the church that have talked to me about it, there certainly is a lot of. There certainly seems to be a lot of evidence that many people are not comfortable in the realm of sexuality in their marriage. Meaning specifically, women are not comfortable and not finding the joy and the pleasure that they would like to feel.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:09] Yeah, and I agree with that. And I think that many couples come to me not for sexual issues. They come to me because of their communication, or they come to me because of whatever other issues they're having in their marriage. And so when I bring up the topic of sexuality, I think, first of all, they're surprised that I'm talking about that. And then as we go into it further, I think I also see that there are some issues there that they could probably improve upon. For sure.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:13:33] Yeah, absolutely.

Women Who Reclaimed Their Sexual Agency

Natasha Helfer [00:13:35] Okay, so can you summarize, then, just some of your stories as far as the women who were involved in the study and what you found as far as. Especially the ones who did well, what were their stories about and maybe even some of the other ones?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:13:51] Sure. Well, the one that I thought was probably captured the ability to hold her sexual agency the best Was the same person that I talked about who had kind of discovered her capacity for sexual pleasure and didn't feel shame about it, but felt a lot of excitement. And she really did very well through the dating years. She was quite desirable. She was attractive, smart, and got a lot of male attention and would sometimes be told, oh, come on, give me a kiss. I took you to dinner, you won't give me a kiss. And she felt completely comfortable saying, no, I have no interest in kissing you.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:14:31] And she was very clear in the interview that this was her body and she had every right to express herself with it, consistent with what she wanted. Only she was very clear that she did not need to take care of the men. And she really saw the law of chastity as a gift to her. She really was very much sought as about her relationship with God, not her relationship with any man or managing her desirability at all.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:00] And when she got married, they were very excited about it. She moved very easily into marriage. It was really just a lovely experience for her. Her first sexual experience, it was just like, you know, I've waited for so long, and here I am with the right person, and it's really wonderful.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:19] So what was interesting to me in the findings was that women who would perhaps challenge the gender role ideology were not necessarily the women who demonstrated more sexual agency.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:34] So in other words, the women who were not happy with the roles of women and men in the church were not necessarily the ones having great agency.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:44] That's right. So what radical feminism would predict is that the ones that would challenge those gender roles would in fact be the ones who would be more able to make space for themselves and their desires in the sexual realm. And I didn't find that to be true. Now, that could be that women had issues with gender role ideology because it had been hard for them and yet had still internalized a message where they should still take care of the needs of men.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:10] So there was inconsistency with what they claimed to believe and what they did in practice. So that the same ones that would say, women aren't there to take care of men's needs would then in fact, still be doing that in their behavior. And just the opposite was true in this one woman I was just speaking about who held the most agency. She, in fact, really held the gender ideology very clearly, and she was clear that her husband was the head of the home, that her role was to be supportive to him.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:42] That role. And there was no. That was very clear for her. But in practice, they actually did something very Non traditional, where she was the breadwinner, the primary breadwinner. She made more money than he did. She was very educated.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:17:01] And so here she was doing something really inconsistent and very much like a very egalitarian marriage, but really holding still in her heart that this was about him being the leader of the home. And she had, at every career juncture, meaning in their decision making, they, as a partnership, would pray and fast and make decisions about whether or not she should continue through medical school or stop. And at every point, they would both feel very clear and impressed that she should keep going. And so here they were really using their faith, using the personal revelation to allow them to create a marriage that was very much about a partnership, very much about doing what they believed Heavenly Father wanted them to be doing.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:17:49] And yet creating a marriage that wasn't particularly traditional at all. I mean, he was the one that was home with the kids through much of her training. And so she really held the ideology, and yet in practice was doing something much more egalitarian.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:06] So she could use the culture and the religion she grew up with to her advantage, to her benefit versus trying to mold into the culture itself. And therefore, part of that is ignoring some of the generalization that leaders sometimes give as advice to church members.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:18:23] Yeah, And I think this is a lovely thing in our faith because we have the basic structure of what we think we're supposed to do, and it's often the structure that we use to judge one another and all those things in all the worst ways. But here we have this understanding that it's our relationship, our personal relationship with God and the Holy Ghost and its ability to shape who we are and what we do and what decisions we make, that can be very unconventional, and yet we can understand that God wants them for us nonetheless. So I think it's a real resource.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:56] Yeah. And when I think of a loving heavenly being, however people want to identify with that, you'd think that that would be their vision for us.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:19:06] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:07] Okay, so any other stories you want to tell us as far as your sample, or are you ready to move on?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:19:15] Well, I could tell you a lot of sad stories, but maybe we could maybe move on. It's up to you.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:22] Okay, well, maybe. Maybe give us one of those.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:19:27] Let's see, just one that comes to mind. Oh, there's so many. I'm trying to think, you know, let me just say a couple of them. One was somebody who actually had a lot of sexual desire, but she grew up in a family where the culture of the Church was underscored by the culture of her family. And her mother gave very complicated messages around female sexuality. So she was very forgiving of her brother's sexual behavior, but would be very critical of her daughter, even though her daughter wasn't doing anything of saying that it was wrong to be wearing anything other than white underwear, that you should never kiss boys because if you kiss too many boys, they won't want you.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:20:07] The mother gave very clear messages that to be desirable was to have no desire. So here she got married and she actually had a lot of desire, but she never allowed herself to show it to him because she really feared that he would see her as shameless and out of control. And so she actually hid this from him. I thought it was very interesting. She would never initiate sex because it didn't fit with her notion of what a woman was supposed to be.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:20:36] So that's one sad story. These aren't horribly sad, but they're sad for me because I just think of how much the inhibition and the lack of ability to say, this is who I am. And that's where we really get our comfort in marriage.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:48] Another person, I think they're horribly sad, by the way too.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:20:56] Another person that comes to mind was someone who premaritally had been able to really feel in control of her sexuality and feel like she could ask for what she wanted. But then when she got married and she had a lot of desire because she was inhibiting herself. So she had a lot of desire premaritally and in a lot of ways believed that marriage, if you could add sex to that, it was going to make their relationship work better, was going to be happier, that some of the schisms between them premaritally would be soothed by the balm of a good sexual relationship. And when they got married, she immediately felt now this sense of pressure to take care of him.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:21:39] And it just snuffed out her desire from the get go. And when I interviewed her, she'd probably been married about seven years at that point, six or seven years. But desire had just simply not come back because his desire was so dominant relative to hers that she just couldn't find the space to want. And it was all about her taking care of him, which very much replayed a dynamic of her childhood of taking care of her enmeshing mother, of her mother that was very controlling of her.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:08] So she just, you know, it was hard because she was in a marriage where she thought sex was going to be a wonderful thing. And it had not been a resource for her at all. So those are some of the more challenging stories.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:19] And the sad thing about the challenging stories is that they can become quite cyclical. Like one thing just continues to feed on the other thing. And it's very hard for a couple sometimes in that situation to turn things around just because the inertia is going the wrong way.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:34] That's right. That's right.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:37] You've kind of put this in all through our talk together. But can you speak to your advice that you would give to parents?

Raising Children with Healthy Attitudes Toward Sexuality

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:48] Well, I really feel like as parents, it's our job to really embrace sexuality as a gift from God and to really understand it as a fundamental part of being human beings, of being embodied human beings. I mean, I think in our theology we really have the ability to really celebrate our physicality. Where I think in some other faiths the body is seen as, as what pulls you down, it's what keeps you from your spirituality. And in Mormonism, we really believe that the body is divine and therefore the sexuality is divine.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:23:28] So we really have the opportunity to embrace it in a different way. And I think we owe it to our children to celebrate sexuality. I mean, I talk to my kids about this is a wonderful, phenomenal thing that, that we have, that's a gift to us and yet it really, really matters how and when and where we use it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:23:48] So it's terrific, be clear about that. But it's also a powerful thing and it can be destructive if we're not very conscious about how we use our sexuality. And I think that's in the core the message. I think a lot of us carry a lot of anxiety about sexuality and then that gets communicated in our, just in those day to day moments as we talked about. And so you really. Part of being a good parent and a good mentor around sexuality is confronting your own anxieties around sexuality also.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:22] Right. And I tell couples a lot that whole idea that, you know, what you're able to offer to each other will more than likely be the role model that you're presenting to your children. And not that we're talking about intimate sexual details with our children, but again, that non verbal communication that children pick up on and that they will then have that much more likelihood to repeat whatever sexual life you're having is probably more than likely going to be similar to the sexual ability that your children will have.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:52] That's right. And you know, a lot of times when I'm interviewing people in my practice and asking them about how they learned their lessons about what it means to be a sexual Being, you know, probably unbeknownst to their parents, they picked up on a lot of those messages and those signals around if their parents were comfortable being sexual or not. Were their parents frigid? Did they lean into touch? Did they lean away from touch?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:25:17] Were there times when their parents door was closed and locked? Was there a sense that mom and dad made space and time for one another or not? And those are really powerful messages because I think as you get married and you start to have a family, that what is evoked in us is our sense of what is it to be a family, what is it to be a married person? And it's often those very unarticulated messages that have the most power over us.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:44] Yeah. And I see a lot of women who are very anxious about the fact that their children might know that they are sexual. They don't like that idea that they want to make sure that the children are asleep or hear them. So they also will stop their own verbal expression during lovemaking because they don't want anybody to hear. So again, it's very much about suppressing.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:26:08] That's right. In the sense that sexuality is inherently evil or will destroy their innocence rather than it's a fundamental part of being a human being. And of course, that doesn't mean you want your children to be privy to all of your sexuality, of course, but that you're at least embracing your sexual nature as good and you're just going to help your kids know how to navigate this important part of themselves as they have the maturity to do that. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:40] And I like what you said about our doctrinal theology supports sexuality being sacred and being important. And yet it's interesting to me, and I guess this goes along with our beliefs about Heavenly Mother, that we have these very, I think, important constructs that we could use, and yet we are afraid to use them for some reason.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:01] I just wrote an article for an LDS women's magazine, and it was all about female sexuality. And they were very excited to have some education on this topic. It was interesting as I started discussing these same concepts for an LDS audience. Heavenly Father has a body, therefore we can look at our bodies as divine. And I talked about Heavenly Mother having a body, and they were not comfortable with my including those kinds of things and especially anatomical language.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:31] So, for instance, implying that Heavenly Father might have a penis, that's very not okay. So I thought that was interesting because for me, those are the things that I tie to our bodies being so wonderful. Those are the things that have helped us, me enjoy my Body and my husband's body, because I see that as very much tied to my idea anyway, of what our heavenly parents look like and are like. Yeah. So we can't even tap into our own wonderful theology in these topics.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:28:06] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:07] Okay.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:28:07] Maybe it's our job to go ahead and do it anyway.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:10] Yeah, yeah, that's. That's what I'm trying to do. It sounds like you're trying to do that too, so that's great.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:28:16] Yes.

Working with LDS Couples and Individuals in Therapy

Natasha Helfer [00:28:18] Okay, so tell us about your practice. And are you seeing a majority of LDs couples or individuals? Tell me a little bit about what you're doing.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:28:28] Yeah, so I would say probably about 75% of my practice is LDS couples or individuals. I mostly see couples. And that's just a word of mouth thing. You know, that it's been become predominantly LDs. And sometimes people come to me specifically for issues of sexuality because they've seen me present somewhere or they've heard about me. And other times, like with you, they're just coming from marital issues. And oftentimes sexuality plays a significant role in the therapy. So. Yeah, that's my practice.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:05] And you said you're in Chicago, so do you get people coming down from Milwaukee? I know that there's some stakes pretty close to you in the Milwaukee area.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:29:13] Yeah, I haven't yet had anyone come from Milwaukee, but I have people from all over the Chicago area come to me. And then also I do Skype therapy sessions. So people who've heard me present somewhere will. Will work with me over the Internet.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:34] So with the couples that you work with, especially within the context of sexuality, what are some of the predominant themes that you're finding?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:29:43] Well, in my practice, I definitely see a lot of imbalances in desire. And I know that there are plenty of marriages in which women have more desire than the men. I mean, personal friends of mine who. I know that's the situation, but for some reason in my practice, I seem to have lots of men who want more sexual experiences with their wives than they're having and lots of women who have very low desire in my LDS clients.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:16] Anyway, I'm wondering, that's making me think of the whole feminism construct that the women who have the higher desire, somehow that's not. That's not important enough to go to therapy for. But if the man has the higher desire, then we better get to therapy.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:32] That's right. And maybe the man's unwilling to come in and talk about it because it can be very shaming. We think of desire as implicitly male. You know that that's a part of being male. So if you have low desire, it's going to be more shameful to speak about it than if you're a woman that has low desire.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:47] Absolutely.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:49] So that may be a piece of it. Absolutely. Also.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:55] So the desire issues are definitely.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:58] Yeah, desire issues are a problem. I would say pornography problems. I see a lot of that. Some sexual addiction.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:07] Can you talk a little bit about how you define sexual addiction and even pornography addiction? Because this is an issue I see a lot and I find that these terms are being very loosely used among Mormons and I'm very concerned about that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:31:23] Yeah. Well, I would say a lot of times couples will say he has a pornography addiction and if I look at how much he's actually using it, it would never in my mind qualify outside of the context of their marriage and how she feels about it as an addiction. You know, it's not like he's using it compulsively. I would say I do have some LDS couples where they are using it compulsively four hours a day. It's interfered with their work. It's, you know, that they're sometimes staying, you know, using the work computer, threatening their job status. I mean, so it's, it's compulsive and.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:57] Yes.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:31:57] And then I would say I also have LDS people who are. Would qualify as a sexual addict in the sense that there's a lot of compulsivity, acting out behaviors that are, you know, acting out going to massage parlors, going to adult rated bookstores and peep shows and all these kinds of things that it's very incongruent with their sense of what they believe is right and what they should be doing. And there's a lot of deception and dishonesty and it's interfering with their ability to function well in the world. So.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:28] Especially in the context of their marriage.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:32:30] Yes, yes, absolutely. But what I would also say is that sometimes I'll talk about my cases without using names with my husband. And he just made the observation the other day, whenever you talk about pornography issues, it's always LDS couples. And I said that's true. I don't even think any of binary LDS couples have ever brought up the issue of pornography. But I think part of the reason is that because it's more, how to say, it's more accepted. I would say at least one of the couples that I work with, she's like, clear that he looks at pornography. She knows he does. But it's not seen as much as a threat to her because she grew up in a much more sexually liberal environment and they both had lots of sexual experiences coming into marriage. So it's just a different cultural context in which they're making sense of pornography use.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:21] It's not part of their contract together that he wouldn't look at that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:24] That's right. That's right. Where in an LDS marriage, it's very much a part of the contract. It's very much a part of the assumption that for many people, just masturbation within the marriage is seen as a breach in the contract. So, yes, we hold a much more rigid standard around how we use our sexuality in the context of marriage.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:46] Right, ma', am, I agree with that. So what are some of the things you're finding useful in working with these couples?

Addressing Low Desire and Shame in Therapy

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:54] Well, I would say in working with low desire women, I do a lot of work around two pieces. One is their notions of sexuality and what sexuality means to them and essentially their disownership of that sexuality. And, you know, I do a lot of my own indoctrinating in a sense around, you know, basically expressing my sense that sexuality matters and it matters for women not in order to please their husbands and be sufficient for him, but because this is an important part of themselves that they have let go of, that they have disowned, that they have disconnected from, and that they have disconnected from a very important resource within themselves, emotionally, psychologically and interpersonally.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:34:45] And so I do a lot of educating about it and speaking, another model to offer it to them to see if it's something that they can resonate with and take a hold of. And I'm often doing it in the context of talking about our faith and how I really believe this is an important part of being a righteous woman, so to speak, is to be sexual, to have pleasure, to have fun, to enjoy oneself in this realm. And for many, this is just so counter to how they've ever thought about sexuality. But I think for many, they feel that it's a very welcome perspective, that they want it, that there's something that resonates with them about it, and they want to gain more access to their desire and their capacity to want and their capacity for eroticism.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:35:34] I think the other way that I thinking about it is around the interpersonal dynamics. And what I would say is the low desire spouse is often the one that will orient to sexuality from a place of duty, not from a place of desire. And that often the low desire spouse has come from a framework that has taught them, whether in their families of origin and or in the church that their relational job in life is to take care of other people's feelings and to make others feel good about themselves and so on.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:10] And that precludes their own identification with their own wants and desires. So the metaphor that sometimes I think about or reference is. I think it was Margaret Mahler, the theorist who talked about the mother child dynamic psychoanalytic theorist.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:29] And.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:29] And so in the child who climbs down off his mother's lap as he's getting old enough to start exploring the world and learning some independence and autonomy, if he climbs down off her lap and he goes, steps away from her and starts exploring the world and looks back and sees that she's smiling and that she's encouraging, he gets the message, or she gets the message that I can have the connection with my important other in my life. My mother and I can also explore the world and how to say it, engage the needs of myself. That I can attend to what I want and what I'm curious about and still be in connection.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:37:18] For the child that climbs down off her mother's lap and starts to explore the world and looks back and sees that mom is anxious and nervous, that she learns if I go and I tend to myself, if I take care of myself, then I am being destructive in my relationship. I'm undermining the security of having the bond that I need.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:37:39] I talk to people about sexuality in terms of needing both autonomy and connection. We all need both of those things. They can often feel like they are competing needs that you can't take care of the needs of the self while being in connection with another. And for those of us for whom that was played out in our families of origin, that your job is to take care of me, your parent, and to do the things that will make me feel good or believe in ways that will make me feel comfortable or study professions that are in line with my dream of what you should be.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:38:16] That those are the children that will often grow up feeling that their relational job is to make others feel good and that the needs of the self cannot coexist. When the needs of the self cannot coexist in a sexual relationship, you can't bring desire into the context of that loving relationship. So it will either be split off and you express desire through pornography or some other objectified form of sex, or you suppress it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:38:44] And so I think that the relational challenge is learning how to hold on to one's sense of self and the needs of the self in the context of being in relationship with your spouse. And for many this is an important psychological process outside of the sexual relationship, and then also one that is very important within the sexual relationship.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:13] Yeah, well, what you describe in my family therapy theories, the Bowenian theory of differentiation, that's a word I use a lot. And that's pretty much what you're talking about, this idea of being able to separate but still be connected.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:28] And that's quite a balancing act. And when you talked about taking care of our parents, I mean, I see so many parents who are very much distressed about whether or not their child is going to go on a mission, whether or not their child is going to attend seminary. I mean, there's a lot of power struggles happening with our teenagers and parenting issues. And much of that I try to really help people. Look at how much of this has to do with your concern for your child, which is obviously always part of it, but it also maybe has to do with how you define yourself as a good parent.

Natasha Helfer [00:40:01] And what are others going to think of you if your child doesn't go on a mission or doesn't attend seminar. And is it fair really to put that kind of stuff onto your kid?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:40:12] That's right. And kids pick up on it and they know that part of what is expected of them is to be who you want them to be. And they'll either do it or they'll rebel against it. But they haven't learned the important relational lesson of how to be who they are and still be in connection with you, the parent, or you the partner.

Natasha Helfer [00:40:31] And to make those decisions, maybe for deeper reasons than just my parent wants me to.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:40:37] Right, absolutely. Which is self definition in practice. And that self definition is so important in desire, I think, because you have to really feel comfortable with knowing who you are and expressing who you are. And wanting from a wanting is an act of self definition. So I think often those who are loathe to want are struggling with their comfort level in expressing who they are and stepping outside of the framework of who do you want me to be? And I think women are especially vulnerable to this because this is what we get fed through all of young women's is that our job is to take care of other people, men in particular.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:26] Right. So also going back to the theme of shame, you know, when you talk about pornography and some of these issues or other ways that people express sexual incompatibility, that's kind of the underlying theme. And so is that how are you addressing that when people come in? Are you educating them about shame and how that plays a role?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:41:49] Yes, I mean, I'm also looking at the same dynamic oftentimes with men who are looking at pornography or looking for more objectified forms of sex. Because oftentimes they are trying to manage the needs of the self, but outside of the context of the relationship. Because often they also feel that they're very much in a dutiful stance in the marriage, that it's not okay to bring the whole of who they are into the marriage. So it's shame. Not just sexual shame, but shame in a broader sense. And so often then they're going to look to satisfy their own needs, but not when someone else is present. So it's easier to feel desire when the subjectivity of the other person is reduced through an image on a screen. Do you see what I mean?

Natasha Helfer [00:42:44] Right. So almost like the desire of the man is also scary to show that in full fledged to his wife because there's something maybe too carnal about that or too, you know, that's all he cares about is sex. Or. So those are kind of the shaming messages we give to our men as well.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:43:03] That's right. And I just think that really soulful, beautiful sexuality is very much about people really daring to show their authentic selves to one another. And that's very scary for most of us. I think most of us have learned that the world is conditional and love is conditional in some form or another. And therefore we have to inhibit and protect what we really express. So like you said, the person with whom we should feel the safest and the most able to share who we are is often the one that we are not willing to really expose our most vulnerable selves.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:44] Yeah, I find this to be the case very much when I bring up the idea of fantasy, when I'll ask couples, so, you know, have you shared with each other maybe some of the fantasies that you've had or have, you know, in the past or currently? And many times they'll look at me like dears in the headline. Like I, you know, I don't even want to admit I've had a fantasy, much less share a fantasy. And so almost like that our thoughts are very much, we're accountable for our thoughts as well in our doctrine as far as lusting or all those kinds of things. But the idea that people do have fantasies is pretty much part of normal human development. But we're not sharing these things. And I think that also plays into the whole pornography piece for men.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:44:29] That's right. So yeah. And you know, I sometimes say to people, they'll say, well, as a man thinketh And I will say to women, well, that's just for men. You can think whatever you want. Use that.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:42] I love that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:44:44] Use that in our favor. But right that our fear around what fantasies mean and what they mean about us, and often they are rather where we go in our minds is to the perverse, to the. The forbidden, to the things that we would never tolerate in the light of day that can seem very erotic in our private thoughts, can be very confusing for people, especially with this dictate that as a man thinketh, so is he. So I think one of the ways I talk to people about that is to say that I think of fantasy as being more like dreams in the sense that there's a lot to learn about yourself and what you're trying to navigate in the sexual realm by understanding fantasies and what they're telling you and teaching you about yourself.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:45:37] Because often they take us to the unresolved parts of ourselves in some form or another, that often we go to the very thing that we seem that we would say we loathe the most, that that's where our minds can go. The other thing I would say about fantasy is this is my hypothesis. I don't have research to back it up, but I.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:54] We need to start doing some research. Jennifer

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:45:59] Exactly. But I think that the more that that love, desire split, or how should I say it, the more you were able to be the whole of who you are in the context of a loving relationship, where you were more able to reconcile the needs for autonomy and the needs for connection or connection to self and connection to other, that when you're most able to reconcile those in your early relationships, I think the more our fantasies are more congruent or more comfortable for us, and the more split those realities were, often the less congruent or comfortable those fantasies can be for us. So I think it just speaks to the relational elements that we're trying to work out intrapsychically.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:46:44] And I think part of that is because when we're trying to move into arousal and the brain is looking for tension, you know, it's about tension, arousal. And so sometimes psychological thoughts that causes some tension are arousing in that context, and helping to educate people about that can diffuse it and make it less shaming.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online at Mormonstories. If you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even award situation through discovering mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:48:00] Me still all my songs shall be near Nearer my go to thee Nearer my go to thee Nearer to thee.

Part Three: Pornography, Fantasy, and Desire

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 216

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories Podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org going back

Natasha Helfer [00:00:15] to this idea of women losing their desire, especially when it's tied to duty, I do get quite a bit of men, especially on my blog, who talk about being in a sexless marriage where they're having sex many times less than 10 times a year, many times for years have gone without any sexual encounter and the frustration that goes along with that. And I see this issue as complicated in the sense that because we are in a benevolent patriarchy, which is good in a sense better than a full blown patriarchy, these men are not forcing themselves, of course, they're not being coercive, they're not being manipulative, they're very much respecting their wife's desire not to have sex.

Natasha Helfer [00:00:59] And yet they're completely feeling basically abandoned in their sexual intimacy. And it affects, of course, the rest of their marriage as well. So with this idea of how do you help women kind of navigate this idea of compromise, which can easily go down the slope of duty to also realizing how do we meet both of the needs in this partnership?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:01:27] Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of easy answers for this. I wish there were because it's such a heartbreaking problem. I think that in the realm of a sexless marriage, I would first say that accommodation of that sexless stance is often undertaken, thinking that eventually she will see what a nice guy I am and how much I've tolerated her anxieties about sex, and she will eventually turn to me, be more comfortable, feel more accepted, and that we will eventually have this thing that she says she also wants but never gets around to wanting.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:04] I do think that the more that the higher desire partner goes into a stance of accommodation, the less that things get mobilized or looked at or moved forward. Because part of the way that she's managing her anxiety is to keep the marriage sexless or to keep it a very limited amount of sex. And so she's not looking to really resolve it. It's kind of resolved for her. So usually it's the one who wants sex more that has to really instigate a process or an examination of what's happening. I think that meeting in the middle, as in, you know, you need to do it a few more times a year so that he's happy, doesn't really work because this isn't what the men or the higher desire people really want.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:02:51] What they really want is A soulful engagement with their spouse. It's not that they just want her to give it up more frequently. They want to connect with her in this emotional, spiritual way. And I think that what that requires is that she's able to bring with a lower desire partner, or she, if we're going to go with the stereotype, needs to bring more of her whole self to that interaction and to trust it. And I think that you can't.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:03:25] Unless the lower desire partner really wants to do that work and wants to reclaim this part of themselves and reinvest in this relationship that has been more comfortable for them to disengage from. There's not going to be any real progress when someone's coming to therapy because they know he's really had it and they want to just kind of say, I really want to want it, and I'm trying, and I want you to just believe that and then leave me alone. Nothing's going to change. I mean, she's really got to want it for herself. I think for something to ultimately shift in the marriage.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:03] Go ahead. I'm sorry, I was going to say

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:04:04] it puts the higher desire partner in a difficult position because it is dependent upon how much she wants to shift it. If it's really going to be something that's much more bonding for the two of them. And a lot of times it is about looking at what's happening in the larger relationship to understand what's inhibiting her desire, what undermines it, what are the things that he might be doing that interfere with the space that she needs? Because oftentimes the higher desire partner, his desire dominates the relationship so much that there's no room for her to want. It's always about managing this kind of constant pressure. And the more he feels like she doesn't want it, the more he desires it, the more that desires. That longing sort of sits on the relationship in a way that's oppressive to her sexual desire.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:54] It's that cycle again.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:04:56] Yes, that cycle, exactly.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:57] Yes. That feeds upon itself.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:05:00] Yeah. So it's really about breaking those cycles and helping people regulate their own feelings more within themselves so that they're. Again, that differentiation that you talked about, so that they're more able to engage in their partnership in a more authentic way, in a way that allows more space for one another.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:22] Yeah. And I think that this is where patriarchy also is a disservice and marginalizes men. Because I think part of the message of patriarchy is that men are the sexual beings. And so then women are left feeling like, well, that's all they care about. All he wants is sex. And the man is left really not looked at as a whole. You know, he's just kind of. He's objectified now as this kind of sexual beast. And that's. That's the only thing that matters. And I think there's some very interesting research coming out showing that even when men have sex, if it's not emotionally attached, it's unsatisfying for them as well.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:00] And so that's really blowing, you know, the top off of all these assumptions that I think we as women sometimes make along with that. What I'm finding, too, that many of these men are writing in, about in this situation is that their women, their wives, and have tied sexuality very much to the idea of procreation and having children. And so while they were having children, you know, they would be willing to be sexual. Now they've hit their 50s or their 60s and no longer see a purpose for sexuality and are kind of hiding behind, again, the marginalization of, well, again, you're carnal. That's all you care about. You're somehow beneath me because you still care about this, right?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:06:45] Absolutely. So I think it's really sad when men get reduced to being hormonal. Natural man taking over. This is all they think about and not seeing behind that, the longing, the desire, that's healthy. That's important. That's about really feeling bonded as a couple. And I think, similar to what you were saying, I think that many people come in and say, I had so much desire before we got married.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:17] As if there's news to that meaning. So many people come in and say, I had it all then. Then we got married and it was all gone. What's the matter? What happened? And I would say the context of premarriage and the context of marriage are vastly different contexts. And that is premaritally, we have all of the space to desire. You know, love is in the wanting. You don't quite have the person yet. You don't know if they really love you, if they really care about structural distance. He drops you off, he goes back to his apartment. There's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of space to want.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:07:53] There is still an adventure ahead of you to see if you're going to ultimately conquer this person or not. Once you've conquered, what I would say is your sexual desire is happening to you. In that context, it's a hormonally drenched state with enormous amounts of fantasy about who the other person is.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:13] Which is not always reality.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:08:15] Yeah, exactly. And so it's a state of mind that really fosters sexual desire. Once you get married, that structural distance is gone. He's lying there next to you naked with just his socks on. It's not that enticing. Right. So it's, can you want what you already have? As one theorist talks about it, I think that, you know, the challenge in marital sexuality is that in order, you have to really foster it and nurture desire because it's not going to happen to you anymore. But in order to do that, you have to really be comfortable with being a sexual being. You have to be comfortable with introducing sexual novelty. You have to be comfortable talking about what turns you on and what appeals to you and feel like, I can share it and it doesn't make me a bad woman.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:09] And be playful and be.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:09:11] Yeah, I can be playful. I can have pleasure. And all this is an important part of being married and being human and being whole. And that's

Natasha Helfer [00:09:22] the biggest lie there is. Okay? So therefore, there must be something wrong in my relationship. So I'll leave this relationship and go look for another one. And then it repeats the same thing. You've said that. Yeah, of course, at first it's very exciting. It's not, again, that whole you want what you can't have or what you don't yet have, and then yet you marry that second person and you're finding yourself in the same situation. So I always say, do you want to figure this out with Joe or Brian or who do you want? You're gonna have to figure it out, but who do you want to figure it out with?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:09:55] Exactly.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:58] Not that I want. I mean, it's not always that simple, but that's kind of.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:10:02] Absolutely. That's what I often say to couples, is they're facing the difficulties of the marriage and saying, you have an opportunity to learn, to grow up, essentially, to learn how to be more whole as a person and to be more differentiated and to know how to really love another person. And it's painful, but part of that pain is an important part of the growth process. And you can do it now, or you can go leave this relationship and do that, work with someone else. But it is work that you need to do.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:32] Right. Okay. So within, I think, LDS culture, there's still a stigma of going to a mental health professional, although that's becoming less so. But added to that, then going to a sex therapist, I think is even, you know, five steps, even further. So I often hear concerns from people about going to therapy in general. You know that especially if they're not lds, that they're going to somehow not respect my values or take my values into consideration. I think with sex therapy, people are very much concerned that they will be introduced to things that they don't even want to think about, or that they'll be asked to do things that they don't agree with, such as masturbation, looking at pornography, exploring fantasies, etc. Etc. So what is your take on the whole sex therapy field? I know you're not necessarily a certified sex therapist, but you're definitely doing what would be considered some sex therapy. So.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:11:33] Right. Like, yes, I would say that what I look at is the sort of interpersonal and psychological elements that inhibit and foster good sexual relationships. But in terms of I understand that anxiety, and I think that's partly why Mormons tend to want to go to a Mormon therapist, is they're really anxious, especially in the realm of sexuality, about what we've often learned is the debauchery and chaos that's outside of the church.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:12:08] So we can be really anxious and anxious that someone's not going to respect our values or understand them or devalue them. And what I would say is that I think that's legitimate to have concerns about it. I think when you find a good therapist, they a way of knowing that they're good is that they really understand the cultural context from which you are operating. And not only are they understanding of it and seek to understand it so that they can understand what your challenges mean to you, but they're also seeking to understand it so they can use it as a resource for you also. And that's just good practice.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:12:43] And if someone's not hearing what your perspectives are and how you feel, then it means they may not be so great. Like one person said to me, she went into a therapist and offered her coffee and then they were a couple and they said, well, no, we don't drink coffee. We're lds. This is part of why we're coming. We're having challenges in this way. And every week he would offer coffee over and over, which was to say he wasn't picking up on.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:13:10] No, we're saying to you that we are different and we need you to hear it and understand it. And so, needless to say, he wasn't a very. He wasn't a very sensitive therapist to who they were. So I think there's reason to trust that you can get good help outside of the church, but you also want to be aware of how in tune they are with who you are and what you're struggling with and what you're comfortable with doing or not doing.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:36] And I think that's the catch 22 that both the therapist and the client are in. Because as therapists, part of our job is to challenge people. You know, as far as, you know, if you say, for instance, well, I'm uncomfortable with that, therefore we can't even discuss that. That's not really. The therapist is going to want to explore that, you know, why are you uncomfortable? And are those good reasons to be uncomfortable or is that healthy? And there are things that people are uncomfortable with that really aren't that healthy. And so I think that's the catch 22. People find themselves in find LDS, both individuals

Natasha Helfer [00:14:19] and couples coming to see me and saying, oh, yes, I came to see you because my last therapist said this and I couldn't believe they said it. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Well, I would say that too. So I'm like, okay, now where do we go from here?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:14:33] Yeah, no, you're right. And I think being lds, you're really at an advantage because you know the structure of the faith so well that you can find those healthier constructs within it. You know, using the Spirit to guide your decisions, understanding Mother in Heaven or the body and its celebration in the church, that as a non LDS therapist, you just wouldn't know how to look for those healthier themes. Right. Within the church to help people embrace them more completely.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:02] Right. And then they can't discount you as quickly, I think, you know, because if it's a non LDS therapist who's telling you anything along those lines, you can say, well, they're not lds, so they don't understand. Whereas I think with an LDS therapist, all of a sudden you're having to say, oh, well, this person's within my face structure and they're looking at this differently than I would. And so why is that? So that's maybe one of the pros of seeing an LDS therapist. There's cons too. So, I mean, there's definitely pros and cons to everything.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:15:31] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:32] Okay, so going back to sex therapy in particular, what are your thoughts about some of the sex therapy things that maybe would be considered more controversial within LDS culture, Such as, you know, having a couple use manual stimulation to help with issues anywhere from anorgasmia to erectile dysfunction to whatever?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:00] Well, I guess I would say I think that it's important if it's what a couple needs. I mean, I think if you hold that your goal is a comfortable, functional, sexual relationship between a couple, because my personal belief is that's extremely important.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:20] Then whatever assistance a couple may need to achieve that is certainly open to consider in my mind, or at least that I will bring it up for a couple to think about if they're comfortable with it and if they think it would be helpful to them. You know, for some women who aren't able to achieve orgasm, it's because their anxiety is just simply too high in the context of the relationship and because they don't know what it is that they need.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:16:53] And so in some cases I've suggested that women take time alone to get to know their own body's capacity for orgasm and arousal and so on, and. And to do it without the husband there. And, you know, that's only if they both feel comfortable with that idea theologically or that they don't feel that it's somehow sinful to do that. But, you know, again, I'm always saying justifying it in the frame of it, blessing your marital relationship. And how can you help a spouse know what you need if you don't know what it is you need? So I think it's 16.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:17:33] Not only is it like, okay, I think it's extremely important to know your own body, to embrace your own body, to know what it is that it's capable of, and then from there to be able to bring that into a loving relationship. You have to know yourself first in all respects.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:52] Yeah. And I love the term you use of that being relationality, that, you know, that self stimulation, masturbation, however people want to term that word, is in the context of relationality, can be a very useful tool.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:18:06] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:06] And I think also this idea that we have in our own, again, in our own doctrinal type of teachings, that sexuality is very clear in the manuals that that's between a man and a woman. And as long as, you know, neither feeling coerced or forced into anything or, you know, deeply uncomfortable with something that you can be, whatever it is you decide to do and to use as a couple is up to you and your spouse.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:18:35] Right, Absolutely. So you think. I actually gave a presentation in a Relief society once and made the horrible mistake of in response to an anonymous question about what to do if you've never had an orgasm. I basically gave that as the response and it. There was a bit of a stir, But. Because that can be distressing for people. But I read in a book called and they are Not Ashamed. I think that's the Name of it by Laura Brotherson. She refers to self stimulation as, I think, self educating. It's very delicate the way she approaches it. But she's basically saying women really need to know their own bodies before they can help their husbands know what it is that they need to be aroused and to achieve orgasm. So, you know, I think it's fully legitimate and important.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:35] Yeah. And again, in the context of not being within secrecy and shame, I think where masturbation can become such an issue in marriages is when one person is falling into that behavior without the other person knowing, and then that person feels betrayed and trust issues ensue and, you know, ongoing. Ongoing. So.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:19:56] Exactly. And so. Exactly. I make a distinction between that and someone who's secretively looking at pornography and masturbating as a way of, you know, bringing their sexuality outside of the relationship and in a way that's destructive to the relationship. So. Absolutely. I make a real distinction with people around that.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:13] Right. And that goes back to your relationality, that anything that has to do with bringing you closer together and can be part of what I like to call your sexual repertoire.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:20:23] Exactly.

Higher-Desire Partners and Masturbation in LDS Marriages

Natasha Helfer [00:20:28] What about this issue that we don't tend to look at women who maybe are the ones who are looking at pornography or women who have the higher sex drive that so many women, I think, that are in these positions can feel so marginalized and so alone or even feel. The words that I get on my blog is I feel freakish. I feel weird. What's wrong with me?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:20:57] Yeah. Right. Well, absolutely. So there's this way in which the culture doesn't name. Consistent with my dissertation is this idea that we don't own that women are sexual, and so we almost deny that women could have sexual challenges in the sense of being sex addicts or having any of those kinds of problems. But of course, then when women are the ones that are the higher desire partner or are tempted by pornography or whatever, it's like a double whammy. It's like they know that it must not be right because it's not right for the men, and yet it's not even being spoken about. And so how do you even say to your bishop that you're having trouble with this because it means you're, you know, you're off the charts weird.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:21:45] And I think that's really unfortunate because, you know, men and women are sexual beings, and some women are. You know, I would. I think I read a statistic that said in 25% of marriages, women are the higher desire partner. I know a theorist that I Read David Schnard's.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:04] In his experience, it's half and half that he has the experience that half of the couples that come in, the woman's the higher desire partner, but people just don't talk about it. And so the stereotypes persist. I think, you know, I think I said this earlier in the interview. My experience is that it's always the higher desire partner is the man in most of the couples I've seen. But I also wonder because of the shame going both directions, not just for the women for being the higher desire partner, but also for the men and being the low desire partner because it's so inconsistent with their notions of what they're supposed to be. So they may reach out for help less frequently.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:40] Right. Yeah, we talked about that a little bit earlier. You mentioned David Schnark, and he has written Passionate Marriage, which is a book I highly recommend. It has some material in it that I could see some LDS couples may be uncomfortable with, but I think overall it's a fabulous book. Yes, right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:22:57] And he makes. His central premise is that marriage is the best context for the most soulful sex, because here is a realm in which you can bring your whole self and really challenge yourself to grow. And so I think that, as you say, there's a lot of his assumptions are consistent with LDS assumptions, right?

Natasha Helfer [00:23:19] Yeah, he's just very upfront about how he talks about it. Yes, he is very blunt. So the other thing I was going to ask too, then, kind of along the lines of using masturbation or self stimulation within the relational aspect of the marriage, is that sometimes I find this to be helpful, even with the drive issues, that if the couple can say, you know what, yeah, I'm not really in the mood, but I understand you're in the mood, so let's work through this where you're able to do that for yourself, but within the context of my being available emotionally, or whether I'm at your side when you do that, or I just know you're doing that. And this sometimes can take off the pressure of having to have similar sex drives, which is practically impossible.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:09] Yes, and I fully support that idea. I mean, I know in my dissertation research, some women specifically said that they felt that was wrong. And I think that's something people say in the church a lot because it's not relational. But I disagree that it's not relational. It's a functional use of masturbation to enhance the comfort in the couple. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:33] And I think it can be a quite erotic experience to watch or to be willing to allow your spouse to watch that process, That's a pretty intimate, vulnerable position to be in.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:44] Yes, absolutely.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:45] And when people say they're uncomfortable with that, that's one of those examples, I would say. Well, I think the. The discomfort there is you're uncomfortable with your vulnerability, which. That's the kind of discomfort you want to challenge.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:24:56] That's right. I fully agree. Absolutely.

Erotica, Pornography, and Healthy Sexuality

Natasha Helfer [00:25:00] So what about your thoughts about erotica versus pornography?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:25:08] You know, I don't have strong, well articulated thoughts on this, so let me see where I go with it. I guess what I would say is that I think in a couple, what's important is thinking about what allows me to feel sexual, to feel turned on. That encouraging desire may very well be important for me, especially if I'm the lower desire partner. And thinking about what are the ways that I can encourage that. If I can hold as. As a premise that being sexual and being able to engage in this language of love and affection and play with my spouse is good, what are the supports that I need to help me move into that realm? And I think there's quite a range for men and women in terms of what they need and what allows them to do it. And, you know, in speaking about fantasy, I think fantasy can be

Natasha Helfer [00:26:11] the whole

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:26:12] range of, I want him to come in and help the kids and then just touch me, but not have any pressure and walk past me and then go work on the dishes. They can have these old scenarios that are highly erotic for them. This idea of being taken care of and his desire not being too dominant and him being a little elusive and all this. And then there's people who have fantasies where they really want to be dominated and they want him to be the powerful character in the sexual interaction, and they want to be tied up. There's all these kinds of things that people will want.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:26:49] And I think that it's okay to bring that into the couple and to think about what does that mean and how does that help me. There's one couple that I've worked with where he needed no fantasy. His only fantasy was to be sexual with her, which was largely in the fantasy realm when I first started working with them.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:27:11] And her fantasies were much more. She had a lot more need to be lifted out of the mundane and the everyday. She just had a hard time feeling sexual when there were toys on the floor and she could hear the baby in the other room.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:27:29] They're a good LDS couple, but he found something online called Lusty Library, and he would download these stories and he would read her A bedtime story. And this was extremely helpful for her. And these were just stories that would arouse her, that would allow her to sort of move into a different realm with him. And the way he would read it to her, it was just a total turn on for her and extremely helpful. And it was actually really brought. She talked a lot about feeling closer to him for being willing to be this flexible with her and to sort of engage in something that she really needed and that for so long in the marriage, she'd felt effective for not

Natasha Helfer [00:28:09] being able to elicit her own arousal.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:28:13] Yes, exactly. And so to feel teamed up with him and to feel that they had an alliance around this, that they were helping each other, and this meant an enormous amount to her. And as their sexual relationship was improving, even though she was, they were getting regular downloads from Lusty Library. I love it. They were coming together more and more emotionally and physically.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:42] Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:28:43] So I guess I would say I don't have, like, one stance on it. I would say I remain open to it. I do think that one of the challenges with pornography is that it sort of snuffed out our cultural. Our sexual imaginations in a lot of ways and does have a lot of problems associated with it, especially the secrecy and the ways in which it's used as an escape from the relationship. I guess I would say in general, I'm not a big fan of pornography, but I would say that I am open to the ways in which couples can use outside sources to facilitate connection between them. But I'm a big fan of sex being about connection, intimacy, sharing of your whole self, including your erotic mind, and including those things that you feel uncomfortable with within yourself even, and having it really be safe to be with one another in this way.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:42] Yeah, I think that's very well said. I agree with you. I'm not a big fan of pornography either, Especially even just from the industry standpoint and some of the stories that circulate around that. But I think erotica can be such a broader subject. From poetry to, like, you're saying, literature to even music. There's so many things that can just elicit those feelings of natural arousal that don't need to fall, I think, into the realm of pornography. I think sometimes, however, in the LDS Church, we struggle with knowing how to create that line between those two. And sometimes we unfortunately don't enjoy a lot of good erotica that I think is valuable because we put it into the realm of pornography. What about sexual toys, vibrators, dildos, lubricants, massage oils, All These different kinds of things that people can use also as tools. What are your thoughts about that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:30:54] Again, I'm going to sound redundant. I would say the same thing I'm holding is the central premise of whatever. Couples need to be able to feel sexual and to be together in this way and to feel a deepening of their alliance, a deepening of their bond. I think that's that. Then all of that is open for consideration.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:31:18] And you know that part of it is that couples. How to say it. I think part of the challenge of a good sexual relationship is managing that maybe people have differences where someone wants to introduce something like a vibrator and the other one feels very uncomfortable with it and trying to navigate those differences and understanding what it means to each person and how much do you stretch yourself and how much do you simply set a limit and say, I'm not willing to introduce something into what we have? And I think those are just individual challenges. Meaning individual to a specific. To a couple. Yeah, to each couple. To navigate and to sort out between themselves and. Or with a therapist.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:04] Right. Yeah, I think that's. That ongoing compromise is obviously important. Well, why don't you bring us home with some closing thoughts and just kind of, you know, what would be. Maybe your. If you could only say a few things. What would be the main themes that you'd like to leave us with?

Closing Reflections and Resources

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:32:27] Well, I guess that I'm very grateful for the gift of sexuality. I think it's a wonderful resource for us and underutilized in our faith. And this gift from God is highly underutilized to bring couples together, to enhance their lives, to help them feel deeply bonded with the person that they love and that they've committed their lives to. And, you know, that I really hope to be a part of helping more couples have that as a resource in their lives. And, you know, I certainly hope that that shifts within the church in general also, that we can celebrate it more openly and not be so afraid of

Natasha Helfer [00:33:15] sexuality using really our own doctrinal themes, which I think are very pro sex.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:23] That's right. And giving that to our children at the same time that we really are helping them navigate a highly sexualized culture that really gives distorted notions of sexuality, in my opinion. So on the one hand, I think sex has the possibility of being a very beautiful, sacred experience between couples. And what makes it beautiful and sacred is this ability to fully share your whole self with another person, to take that kind of healthy risk and to have it be met.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:33:53] That's what makes sex beautiful. But you can do all kinds of things with sex and you can make it horrible. I mean, it can be destructive and highly damaging. And so we really need the message that it has the potential to be an amazing thing, but it also has the potential to really be hurtful. So we have to handle it with a lot of wisdom. And kids need parents guidance. And if parents are so anxious that they have the talk and they're not able to stay in an ongoing conversation with their children, they're doing them a deep disservice. Not preparing them to manage the pressures through adolescence, but also not preparing them to manage the realities of a marriage. And it's just we need to do a better job as parents and teachers in the church.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:37] Yeah. So the concept of opposition in all things, I think is what you were first referring to with both the beauties and the struggles that sexuality can bring. And then this idea of, I think we do focus so much on adolescent sexuality when we are parenting and yet we miss out. I mean, that's really only what, five to 10 years of their lives and how about the rest of the 40 years? Are we preparing them for that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:35:05] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:06] Well, this has been a fabulous interview and I could keep on talking to you forever, but maybe we'll have you back sometime if I can get you to do that. Can you tell us what you're currently offering and how we can use you as a resource? How can people contact you? Tell us about your website.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:35:23] Sure. So My website is www.finlayson-fife.com and then I also have a blog where I just advertise online courses that I teach. I teach one six week class on enhancing your relationship. It's one hour, it's a little over an hour every week. And then I also teach another course on enhancing your sexual relationship and I will be offering that one and this relationship class in the, in January again. So that's in my blog, which is. Maybe you can link to this because I think it's.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:03] Yeah, we'll link to everything. Yeah.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:05] Drjennifer fife.blogspot.com okay, and then is your

Natasha Helfer [00:36:10] dissertation available for sale? If people want to read that, it is.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:16] If people will contact me@jenniferinlaysonfife.com then I can direct them how to purchase it.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:24] Okay. Because yeah, I think it's a great read and if anybody's interested in that, I think it would be worth the time getting that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:32] I was going to say, I think most parents don't read their children's dissertation, but my mom, it was a page turner for her.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:39] Yeah.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:36:41] Chapter four. Because of all women talking about their experiences, it's not as hard to read as some dissertations.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:49] Right, Right. No, it was very well done. And I'd like to throw out to the listeners the option of submitting questions or comments or topics that they might, you know, want us to address in the future or interested in discussing that have to do maybe with this topic and I can let you know what what we come up with. But I'd just like to thank you so much for your time. This has been very educational, very productive, and you've just done a wonderful job. So thank you so much.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:37:16] Thanks Natasha. I really enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online@mormonstories.org if you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin, as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even word situation through discovering mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife [00:38:08] Even though it be a cross that reset me still all my song shall be Nearer my go to thee Nearer my God, Nearer to thee.

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