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  1. found them in the podcast. awsome jobs with the podcasts John, hope you’ll keep going for a while. not that many good mormon podcasts out there.

  2. I read about the “Mormon Worker” in the SL Tribune. Mr. Van Wagenen’s statements there were patently false and easily disproven. For example, he said:

    “Though Mormons believe in obeying the law and respecting elected officials, they should see capitalism as a necessary evil rather than a system God endorses, he writes. If they were really following LDS principles, Mormons would all be anarchists.

    “Every Mormon should look forward to the abolition of government,” Van Wagenen writes, “and the building of a socialist society based on free association and mutual cooperation.”


    How does this statement jibe with the Twelfth Article of Faith or D & C 134:

    “We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.”

    “We believe that every man should be honored in his station, rulers and magistrates as such, being placed for the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty; and that to the laws all men show respect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror; human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man; and divine laws given of heaven, prescribing rules on spiritual concerns, for faith and worship, both to be answered by man to his Maker.”

    I wonder if Mr. Van Wagenen believes God is an anarchist or whether he believes God has His own government and laws.

    It’s good that people fight for social justice and peace while exposing the cancer of consumerism in our society. However, Mr. Van Wagenen goes too far when he suggests that Mormon doctrine teaches the abolotion of government.

  3. While I agree that ultimately our goal is to implement the United Order after the collapse of the current order of things (i.e. the collapse of communism and capitalism when all nations of the earth cease to be) I fail to see how the word “anarchy” describes the establishment of the United Order. The collapse of the current order of things will come on its own, not by any principles of “anarchists.” So I’m confused by this whole thing, unless I just don’t get the point.

  4. I am a Mormon, an anarachosyndycalist, and a libertarian socialist and I think that Van Wagenen work is fantastic. Anarchosyndicalism fits very well with the establishment of the united order. As a libertarian….Jefferson’s works and the Constituion are extremely important as they are some of the groundworks for a fantastic social order. I honestly believe, like Chomsky, that the social order of the future is Libertarian socialism when all oppresive chains will be broken and freedoms re-granted. The society we live in now is fascist according to Roosevelt’s definition. Corporatism is oppresive and must be broken. Christian Anarchism is, as a political philosophy, is not violent and follows civil disobedience.

  5. I’m with you, William, in rejecting the Iraq War and those that will follow and affirming our higher focus on loving folks. You’re in good if not sparse company. President Kimball taught these principles strongly in his 1976 Ensign article, “The False Gods We Worship” http://www.nauvoo.com/library/kimball-false.html

    Several paragraphs near the close of the piece sum it up well: “In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had — in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people — a condition repugnant to the Lord.

    We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel — ships, planes, missiles, fortifications — and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

    “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:44-45).”

    While we tend to get caught up in the patriotic fervor of pre-emptive wars we can’t escape the fundamental truth that love trumps hatred and aggression.

    A corollary of our aggression being fundamentally wrong is that it will bring us grief. The Lord points out repeatedly in the scriptures that when we rely on the arm of flesh, sooner or later we’ll find ourselves disapointed in the extreme. In a prophecy recorded by Mosiah Hancock, Joseph Smith prophecied, “The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands . . . ” Foreign wars with mercenary armies efficiently bankrupted the imperial nations of Europe several centuries ago. It’s a pity we’re on course to follow their example with little of value to show for our efforts.

    The rest of Joseph’s prophetic sentence usually gets all the attention: “. . . until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of the United States”, then the people of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore­fathers, that the land shall not be divided.” Where we might be an example of gospel-inspired friendship and opportunity we’re swaggering about alienating folks who may one day decide to eat us for lunch.

    So good strength to your efforts, William. While you’re a small voice in an America inebriated with prosperity and power, I believe you’re in harmony with the higher way that is coming. I believe there’s great value in promoting the principles of Zion. By raising our awareness about it you’re helping Zion to manifest. To Zion.

  6. In response to Dave’s comments:
    Many people who are not educated on Anarchism as a political thought often hold the erroneous, yet popular, view of Anarchists as anti-law and order (much in the same way the public still holds erroneous thoughts of what mormonism is). We are not speaking of anarchism promoted by punk rockers who want to drink and do drugs with no interference, we are talking about a serious political philosophy.
    Anarchism does not do away with leaders, laws, etc, it simply broadens democracy to include all aspects of life, including work. I therefore find no contradiction between D&C 134 and Anarcho-Syndicalism. In some progressive European nations this has already begun, for instance in Germany a board of executives in a corporation is directly accountable to the workers because he or she is elected by those workers. Here in the states, that executive would be chosen by people who have little to no interest in meeting workers needs in terms of healthcare, wages, etc.

    Chomsky does a great job of explaining the core of Anarchist thought:

    “…the term anarchism is used to cover quite a range of political ideas, but I would prefer to think of it as libertarian left, and from that point of view anarchism can be concieved as a kind of voluntary socialism…in the tradition of say Bakunin and Kropotkin and others. They had in mind a highly organized form of society, but a society that was organized on the basis of organic units, organic communities. And generally they meant by that the workplace and the neighborhood, and from those two basic units there could derive through federal arrangements a highly integrated kind of social organization, which might be national or even international in scope. And the decisions could be made over a substantial range, but by delegates who are always part of the organic community from which they come, to which they return and in which, in fact, they live.
    Representative democracy, as in say, the United States or Great Britain, would be criticized by an anarchist of this school on two grounds. First of all because there is a monopoly of power centralized in the State, and secondly-and critically-because representative democracy is limited to the political sphere and in no serious way encroaches on the economic sphere. Anarchists of this tradition have always held that democratic control of one’s productive life is at the core of any serious human liberation, or for that matter, of any significant democratic practice.”

    To learn more visit this link:


  7. My great-great grandfather ran the only United Order in Salt Lake City during Brigham Young’s era. As my great grandmother related in my mom’s book:(see link for selfish, capitalistic, self-promotion 😉

    “When I was sixteen my father was appointed to take charge of a branch of the United Order organized in Salt Lake City. I helped him keep the records and that was a job in itself. I made shirts for the boys and men and dresses for the women and if that wasn’t enough I worked in the silk factory, unwinding the silk threads from the cocoons. That was careful, exacting work. I made ladies dresses outside the Order because I had a reputation of making beautiful gowns. I couldn’t keep the money I earned. It had to be given to the Order.
    I was sure glad when the Order dissolved about two years later. When it was first started there were thirty-nine members, some with their families, who signed up. They met mostly in our old house at Second South and State. Here they gave their report of the hours spent and the kind of work they did. Prayers were said and food was served and more than a few slept there and made it their home.

    This United Order had a mixture of nationalities. Five members were born in Scotland, thirteen born in Denmark, twelve in England and three came from Sweden. One was born in Calcutta, India and one came from Castilla, Spain. Then there were four born in the United States; one in California, one in Illinois and two in Utah, towns of Manti and Morgan. We needed a few interpreters but all were trying to learn and speak English. I was surprised how the Gospel seemed to envelop us bringing all of us together as a family.
    Our farm was at Millcreek and we gathered our fruit from the 3rd Ward orchard. Mother assigned the women their tasks and helped them learn some new skills. She was always cheerful and encouraging and much loved by the sisters. Father with the help of Brothers Heber Searle and Neils Neilsen planned and rotated the work for the men.

    There were a few who left the Order before it was disorganized. Joseph Waters was one. He made ladies slippers, men’s shoes and boots, so we were sorry to see him go. He said he was leaving for Spanish Fork in search of a wife as he had not found one here. Some blamed me for his leaving since he had asked me to marry him and I said no, because he was too old and not very handsome. This branch of the United Order failed like all the others leaving my folks poorer but wiser, my mother said.”

    There was a reason that the United Order failed. It was because equal pay for unequal work doesn’t make practical sense.

    Glen (the Capitalist)

    P.S. to see a my defence of Kiyosaki-type Capitalism against a Christian right-wing blog take a look at: (search for Fullmer)


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